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Old 12-08-2012, 08:40 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Bridget so true xx
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:50 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudClan View Post
I have wanted to stay out of this thread, mostly because I feel the wonderful caring folks of the SM community have said everything I might wish to say in a more eloquent way than I felt I could.

However, while I understand your defensiveness in reaction to the criticism you have received, I have to point out that it is those people who believe a pet does not require an investment of their time and their attention that cause many of these owner turn-ins to shelters and rescues. It is not the dogs and the behaviors themselves. It is the owners who do not take responsibility for them. Now, you see yourself as taking responsibility here by sending your little one off to "camp" and spending a small fortune to do so, but it seems to me, that you expect to get back a perfectly socialized creature without the investment of your own time. What if she comes back and is not "perfect"? Will you take the time to train her yourself? Will you give up on her and send her to a shelter or a rescue?

I ask this because when I was a foster mom, I was the third home of a dog who went to a camp just like the one that you have sent your dog to. The dog, Chloe, went as a baby puppy. She was trained, with methods like your trainer describes. She was videoed and when she was turned over to me in rescue, the owners said to me, look at how good she was in the video. I never could get her to do that at home. Well, there was a reason for that. The owner did not do the work herself. I re-homed this young Maltese with a family that believed in positive training. She had issues as a result of her first year of life with owners who had failed her. But her new owner took her and tried to work through those issues. She trained her to do tricks and to become a therapy dog. The work her new owner did never was able to fully overcome some of the fears the dog had from the scarring experiences of her early life, but putting in the time to train her themselves they had a lovely well socialized little dog.

Sending your dog off to a training camp is not about building the bond of a relationship. It is about expecting someone else to "create" the perfect dog. In this case, you have chosen one whose methods are not supported by the experts in the field of veterinary behavior. If you read the position statements of the professional organization of animal behavior experts you will see that your trainers methods are contrary to the current recommendations: Position Statements & Handouts (for the public) | AVSAB

I did visit the FB page of this individual and I found myself very disturbed. The type of attitude this individual has toward training is very archaic. As someone who has invested a great deal of time and training into my own dogs, I find it a shame that you will never get to experience the bond created when you work on training your own dog in a positive and loving way. My dogs are not perfect. But they have done therapy work, earned obedience titles and along the way, I learned that I am the one who really needed the training. Training between an animal and an owner is about establishing communication and trust between them.

You may get lucky, despite being trained by someone who clearly does not understand the literature on canine behavioral science, whose methods are questionable at best, your little girl may not be harmed by this experience. It seems you got lucky the first time around with your Havanese, but in both cases you will have lost out. You will have lost out on the bonding time that should be part of any training program.
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:26 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Boarding School, should been BOOT CAMP ANYONE?
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:33 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Kandis !! You said it !!!
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:49 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I just keep seeing my Vet & Breeders faces if I said I wanted to enroll Penny or Sammie in a 5 week boot camp for mostly big problem dogs.

It's too unbelievable to me someone would do this. There is nothing to correct yet for gods sakes. And she may end up with more fears from this experience alone. I saw 2 labs attack Sammie as a puppy so I know how fast these untrained dogs are with tiny white dogs. But at this point, I just hope the OP did research about the needs of a Maltese PUPPY --- so this guy will provide lots of water, right kind and amount of food to avoid hypoglycemia.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:06 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Yes kandis I know what you mean bloody crackers in my point of view ... I posted an update on alberts illness xx
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:07 AM   #77 (permalink)
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I just can't help coming back to this post. It stays on my mind so much! In addition to what I've already voiced my opinion about, I also keep wondering other things about her care. Is she getting the right kind of food & water? Is her hair being kept brushed and clean? Is anyone washing her little face? I just keep imagining that this guy is used to big, dark colored dogs and may not think of those things or just think of them as a luxury. I hope she doesn't come home all matted and tear stained in addition to my praying that she does come home and nothing horrible has happened to her.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:07 AM   #78 (permalink)
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When you go on to a forum with a statement or a question people will voice their opinion! so these are our opinions. what you do with it, is up to you in the end.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:07 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Great post, Carina!

If you don't believe US about the dangers of toy breeds and prong collars due to the risk of tracheal collapse (which may not manifest until later in life), please talk to your VET. (or even do a web search).

You should be the one training your own dog and socializing her. Will the trainer also be bathing her frequently and brushing her daily, playing with her feet and brushing her teeth?!?! These are things that YOU as her owner should be introducing very early on.

And, by the way, I bet I could train a puppy with positive reinforcement in five or less weeks too. He's not doing anything Magical so I don't know why he boasts about 5 weeks. That's a heck of a long time. I just don't think his methods are the best way for a Maltese. I hope that Emme gets lucky and does not get injured or fearful from this experience. I am very open minded but NOT when the trainer does not know medical risks specific to the Maltese breed.

Marisa really could train a puppy in 5 weeks with POSITIVE training Have you watched her videos of Obi. He is absolutely amazing!!!!!!! It just makes me cry thinking of what poor little Emme is going thru. It breaks me heart.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:20 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudClan View Post
I have wanted to stay out of this thread, mostly because I feel the wonderful caring folks of the SM community have said everything I might wish to say in a more eloquent way than I felt I could.

However, while I understand your defensiveness in reaction to the criticism you have received, I have to point out that it is those people who believe a pet does not require an investment of their time and their attention that cause many of these owner turn-ins to shelters and rescues. It is not the dogs and the behaviors themselves. It is the owners who do not take responsibility for them. Now, you see yourself as taking responsibility here by sending your little one off to "camp" and spending a small fortune to do so, but it seems to me, that you expect to get back a perfectly socialized creature without the investment of your own time. What if she comes back and is not "perfect"? Will you take the time to train her yourself? Will you give up on her and send her to a shelter or a rescue?

I ask this because when I was a foster mom, I was the third home of a dog who went to a camp just like the one that you have sent your dog to. The dog, Chloe, went as a baby puppy. She was trained, with methods like your trainer describes. She was videoed and when she was turned over to me in rescue, the owners said to me, look at how good she was in the video. I never could get her to do that at home. Well, there was a reason for that. The owner did not do the work herself. I re-homed this young Maltese with a family that believed in positive training. She had issues as a result of her first year of life with owners who had failed her. But her new owner took her and tried to work through those issues. She trained her to do tricks and to become a therapy dog. The work her new owner did never was able to fully overcome some of the fears the dog had from the scarring experiences of her early life, but putting in the time to train her themselves they had a lovely well socialized little dog.

Sending your dog off to a training camp is not about building the bond of a relationship. It is about expecting someone else to "create" the perfect dog. In this case, you have chosen one whose methods are not supported by the experts in the field of veterinary behavior. If you read the position statements of the professional organization of animal behavior experts you will see that your trainers methods are contrary to the current recommendations: Position Statements & Handouts (for the public) | AVSAB

I did visit the FB page of this individual and I found myself very disturbed. The type of attitude this individual has toward training is very archaic. As someone who has invested a great deal of time and training into my own dogs, I find it a shame that you will never get to experience the bond created when you work on training your own dog in a positive and loving way. My dogs are not perfect. But they have done therapy work, earned obedience titles and along the way, I learned that I am the one who really needed the training. Training between an animal and an owner is about establishing communication and trust between them.

You may get lucky, despite being trained by someone who clearly does not understand the literature on canine behavioral science, whose methods are questionable at best, your little girl may not be harmed by this experience. It seems you got lucky the first time around with your Havanese, but in both cases you will have lost out. You will have lost out on the bonding time that should be part of any training program.
Carina, that is beautifully said!

Tessa earned her Canine Good Citizen over a period of almost a year through positive reinforcement. Is she perfect? Absolutely not, but in part because I do not work with her as much as I should to maintain her training. I also would never want to use any punishment (prongs or chokers included) on her because her spirit is so wonderful, I wouldn't want to break it!

I do hope the OP is open to learning because as Carina said, these training methods are almost never used any more.
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