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Old 01-07-2013, 08:21 PM   #61 (permalink)
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So interesting thing my friend went on to his Facebook and he does training for a local animal shelter!!!!!!!!!! Six thousand and plus people like this guy Wth ?????????
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:46 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I agree with you guys on so many points and I went back over his page, raging in my head about how asinine (my new favorite word) many of his methods were. I do not believe in shock collars and all those type of pre historic training methods.

Something I did like though...

My Dog Training Philosophy
No dog should be killed for any behavioral issue, ever!


Behavior problems are caused by people-not dogs. Some dogs are extreamly difficult to work with. I honestly believe, that, though few and far between, there are dogs out there that 'positive reinforcement' type methods (that I and at least most of you prefer) just don't work with.

I do believe there is a place for trainers with.... alternate.. methods, however I don't understand why anyone would send a little puppy to a place like this right after getting it, unless they were just that unprepared and didn't need to be puppy parents anyway....
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:51 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by shellbeme View Post
Behavior problems are caused by people-not dogs. Some dogs are extreamly difficult to work with. I honestly believe, that, though few and far between, there are dogs out there that 'positive reinforcement' type methods (that I and at least most of you prefer) just don't work with.

I do believe there is a place for trainers with.... alternate.. methods,
Agreed! Shocking a dog every time he wants to bite is better than putting him down when it comes down to desperate measures. Basing your whole business on a negative reinforcement philosophy and taking in pups who have nothing wrong with their behavior is just whack though.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:43 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Do you mind sharing what those things are? One, like you mentioned, is training throughout the day. What other methods do you like?
So, I already mentioned that I like that he trains 24/7 instead of in short bursts. I really think that helps provide a lifelong foundation for training.

I also like that he doesn't yell the word "No" as a correction, he just says "no".

He doesn't use food in training -- and it works. Food lures can be great, and I know you wean them away, but if I can get the same results without food that is even better.

He uses body language for some cues. For instance, I watched a video on "waiting for food". It was great -- I am used to putting my dogs in a "sit" and then a "wait" verbal cue. He uses body language and the food to lure them naturally into a sit position, and then doesn't even say wait. They wait until he says "okay". I love that! He also says "out" and repeatedly takes away the food. That is just like "leave it" but it works great. I tried this method with my dogs tonight and it worked amazingly well.

He does praise the dogs. He praises with words such as "good boy" as well as with petting. His voice is calm and positive throughout all of the training videos and clips I watched.

For about 2 hours now I have been using his methods on teaching "place", as well as "sit" (always a sitstay) and "down" (always a downstay). For a few minutes my dogs were confused because they already knew "place" but that meant to go to the place and lay down. They also obviously know sit and down already but they didn't know they needed to stay in that command until I released them with "okay". After about 3 minutes it clicked and they are really responding well to this method. I didn't use any treats, only praising them after I released the command. London is a HUGE barker and while I can't find any tips from him on barking, she is barking much less tonight because she is focusing on holding her sit or down command. I usually separate the dogs for training, but his method allows me to work with both dogs at the same time. I can have Preston in "place" while I have London sit or down. I can release London without Preston coming also. I'm pretty amazed at the success so far. I release them, let them walk around or play, etc, and when London looks like she's about to start barking at something, I call them back and work with them more.

For me, I'm able to take bits and pieces of what he does and use them in the ways I see appropriate without using harsh methods.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:46 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I can't stand to go to his page. Not only do I hate the way he trains dogs, what idiot uses an infant as a training device? He puts his 13 week old baby on the floor with the dogs to "babyproof" them?

Animal abuse AND child abuse IMO!
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:59 PM   #66 (permalink)
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So, I already mentioned that I like that he trains 24/7 instead of in short bursts. I really think that helps provide a lifelong foundation for training.
Won't that be hard for puppies? Can a puppy really sit in place for four hours?

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I also like that he doesn't yell the word "No" as a correction, he just says "no".
I agree. Our trainer recommends this too. Losing your patience is a sign of a negative emotion, one that will only frustrate the dog more.

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He doesn't use food in training -- and it works. Food lures can be great, and I know you wean them away, but if I can get the same results without food that is even better.
It works because of fear of negative reinforcement, no? The rewards these dogs get is not getting shocked by the shock collar or having their necks pinched by prong collars.

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He uses body language for some cues. For instance, I watched a video on "waiting for food". It was great -- I am used to putting my dogs in a "sit" and then a "wait" verbal cue. He uses body language and the food to lure them naturally into a sit position, and then doesn't even say wait. They wait until he says "okay". I love that! He also says "out" and repeatedly takes away the food. That is just like "leave it" but it works great. I tried this method with my dogs tonight and it worked amazingly well.
Yeah, he does the 'chaining' commands a lot. It does work. Dogs get it. You could call it 'sit' or 'oompa loompa', the dog just needs to know that means sit + stay.

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He does praise the dogs. He praises with words such as "good boy" as well as with petting. His voice is calm and positive throughout all of the training videos and clips I watched.
His voice is calm and positive, but he is pinching their necks if they are doing something wrong. Praising the dogs does not negate that.

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For me, I'm able to take bits and pieces of what he does and use them in the ways I see appropriate without using harsh methods.
And that's great. However, I don't think it is OK to ignore the biggest red flag and call his training methods good. His training methods 'work' primarily because of his cruelty. That is the main reason, not his body language, not his gentle voice.

Sorry if this sounds like I am attacking you, I am trying hard to not make it sound like that. And trust me, I do see your point. There is some good stuff in there that people could learn from. However, it is not fair to evaluate his methods by ignoring the foundation of his techniques, i.e. negative reinforcement.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:21 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Won't that be hard for puppies? Can a puppy really sit in place for four hours?


I agree. Our trainer recommends this too. Losing your patience is a sign of a negative emotion, one that will only frustrate the dog more.


It works because of fear of negative reinforcement, no? The rewards these dogs get is not getting shocked by the shock collar or having their necks pinched by prong collars.


Yeah, he does the 'chaining' commands a lot. It does work. Dogs get it. You could call it 'sit' or 'oompa loompa', the dog just needs to know that means sit + stay.


His voice is calm and positive, but he is pinching their necks if they are doing something wrong. Praising the dogs does not negate that.


And that's great. However, I don't think it is OK to ignore the biggest red flag and call his training methods good. His training methods 'work' primarily because of his cruelty. That is the main reason, not his body language, not his gentle voice.

Sorry if this sounds like I am attacking you, I am trying hard to not make it sound like that. And trust me, I do see your point. There is some good stuff in there that people could learn from. However, it is not fair to evaluate his methods by ignoring the foundation of his techniques, i.e. negative reinforcement.
I know you are not attacking me. He doesn't actually use the prong collars and remote collars on all of the dogs. Some of the videos he even specifies he is just using a plain collar (and you can see that). I wouldn't call his foundation negative reinforcement even. I'm not sure what I would call it. And he definitely doesn't put a puppy in a stay command for 4hrs. lol What I mean when I say he works with them 24/7 is that he doesn't just have certain small training sessions. He works periodically throughout the day in real scenarios such as having them lay down while you eat dinner...or sitting and staying while you open the door.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:34 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LJSquishy View Post
I know you are not attacking me. He doesn't actually use the prong collars and remote collars on all of the dogs. Some of the videos he even specifies he is just using a plain collar (and you can see that). I wouldn't call his foundation negative reinforcement even. I'm not sure what I would call it. And he definitely doesn't put a puppy in a stay command for 4hrs. lol What I mean when I say he works with them 24/7 is that he doesn't just have certain small training sessions. He works periodically throughout the day in real scenarios such as having them lay down while you eat dinner...or sitting and staying while you open the door.
Agreed. I do think training throughout the day is good. But yeah, he does LONG stays. 2-4 hrs. It's on his FB page.

I do disagree with you on the part about his methods and techniques. Agree to disagree on that.


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Old 01-07-2013, 11:37 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Also, if you remember Emme was wearing a prong collar. That's what leads me to believe that's his default training method. There is no other reason to put that on a 12wk old maltese.

As for his dogs not wearing a collar all the time, he weans them out. I guess negative reinforcement works just like positive, once the dog is afraid you don't always need a prong collar. They know better than to disobey.


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Old 01-07-2013, 11:57 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I can't stand to go to his page. Not only do I hate the way he trains dogs, what idiot uses an infant as a training device? He puts his 13 week old baby on the floor with the dogs to "babyproof" them?

Animal abuse AND child abuse IMO!
Amen

Also,one look at the pic the poster attached in this thread...you can clearly see this malt was shockingly afraid. Shame on those people putting that dog through that and OMG a baby being used as a training aid... DISGUSTING !
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