# People products toxic if licked?



## Sweetie the Smartest Dog (Aug 29, 2009)

:innocenteople are posting that they are using hair care products meant to be used on people on their dogs. I am wary of this, because my puppy licks her peepee and her paws. Could she be ingesting these products when she is licking? Maltese have a lot of liver problems. These products could be detoxed in the dog's liver. Are hair care products specifically for pets non-toxic for pets? Has anyone investigated this?


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

I prefer to use natural grooming products formulated for pets. Some SM members do use human products but my own personal choice is not to. You are correct, in that it is possible for them to ingest traces of the product from licking their paws or hair. Whether or not it is possible for it to cause harm, I don't know.


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## spookiesmom (Mar 28, 2010)

I only use dog products on her, their pH is different than ours, why risk a skin problem?


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## Kaijah (Apr 20, 2010)

Just looking at it from a chemistry stand point... most of the ingredients in dog shampoo/conditioners are the same as the ones made for humans. The basic surfactants and conditioning agents, that is, are the same. People's products are more likely to have pointless vanity ingredients added, that don't really do anything but make them smell nice, or make us feel good because we're "putting vitamins on our hair," even though hair can't use them topically. Heh.

So if you think of it that way.... even licking dog products, if your particular dog doesn't agree with an ingredient, the fact that it's supposedly okay for dogs isn't going to matter.

The pH would probably be the biggest issue - but assuming you have neutral-hard water, you could dilute the poo/condish with tap water a raise the pH significantly (human products are usually 5). Most commercial products aren't buffered enough to withstand the alkalinity in most tap water (there are always exceptions... your water might be more acidic, could check the city water report to see.). If I remember correctly, dogs are around 6.8 - 8.5 depending on the breed. That's the same range as most tap waters - mine is something like 8.2.

I'd be more concerned about the perfumes and unnecessary junk than anything else. Also, the stronger sulfate based cleansers that have no mediating oils or conditioners to tone them down. They make me itch, why wouldn't they make the dog itch?

Also, I don't think there are any laws requiring full ingredients lists for dog products. That worries me - they can leave out whatever sounds "bad" with no repercussions. It also worries me that not all dogs brands use scientific names - they'll use something like "natural coconut derived cleanser." That means nothing. Dozens of surfactants are derived from coconut - the cheapest being the harsher sodium lauryl (or laureth) sulfate.

I guess that's a long winded post saying there's good and bad everywhere. ^^;


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Most human and pet products are toxic to pets (and humans too!). 
The vapors are inhaled through the lungs during the bath and long after the bath is done because the perfumes and chemicals linger in the hair. Also, the product is absorbed through the skin where it enters the bloodstream. I agree with Kaijah about all the chemicals (also really good lesson on ph!). I also agree with you - it's not good for the liver. If the liver has difficulty processing the toxins they can get stored in the body and may cause health problems later.


There are very few non-toxic pet products available. For pets Aroma Paws, EarthBath, CastleBath. There are a few more that have been mentioned on here but I don't remember names. For humans, Aubrey, Desert Essence, Alba. Most (but not all) in a health food store will be non-toxic. You may want to stay away from anything with tea tree or rosemary.


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

I, too found the ph thing very interesting.
Thanks, Kaijah.
I didn't know that water can alter the ph level,
makes sense, but I had never thought of it.


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## Sweetie the Smartest Dog (Aug 29, 2009)

Thanks for the great posts. You have given me a lot of information to research. I will definitely be checking out the natural products. Natural doesn't always mean safe or good.


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## Kaijah (Apr 20, 2010)

You know, I was thinking it would be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison of the ingredients in frequently recommended products - but I'm having a heck of a time finding a fully disclosed list of ingredients on a dog shampoo. The best I've found for full lists are a few on Petsmart, like the TIGI Pet Head products, and some of the cheap stuff like Top Paws. Chris Christensen, Pure Paws, Plum Silky and Coat Handler have all eluded me. :huh: Tropiclean has all weird half lists with non-INCI names.

Earth Bath looks interesting, but their ingredients list annoys me.
Here's Mango Tango
*Purified water
renewable coconut-based cleansers*: this means absolutely nothing. It could be Sodium Lauryl or Laureth Sulfate, Ammonium Laruyl or Laureth Sulfate, Cocomidopropyl Betaine, or Cocomide MEA, among others. Those are just the most common - most likely it's ALS or SLS, as those are the cheapest of the bunch, and require the least amount to be added to get lots of foaming action.
*gentle-conditioning agent*: this also means nothing. Lol. Probably cetearyl alcohol or something similar. I don't understand why they didn't list this out, since there are practically no health/hazard concerns with most commercial conditioning ingredients. They're probably just trying too hard to sound natural.
*aloe vera* Moisturizing ingredient. Probably helps some dogs with skin issues. It's a good ingredient, but it's not the main conditioner.
*mango essence* this should really be labeled as mango perfume/fragrance. There's no such thing as a true mango essential oil, so it is a manufactured fragrance.
*olive oil squalene (natural preservative)* this flat out confuses me. They're calling olive oil squalene a preservative? Unless I'm misinterpreting this, and they just listed "natural preservative" in parenthesis for no apparent reason. In any case, olive oil squalene is not a preservative, but it is a really nice oil with excellent emollient properties that absorbs well into skin.
This means they don't even list their preservative. I'm thinking about e-mailing them just to see what they say. Their conditioner is labeled in the same weird half-list manner. Most of the natural shampoo lines seem to do this. (I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone here, I just noticed lots of people using EarthBath recently and thought it would be good to look at.) Hmmmm.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Kaijah said:


> You know, I was thinking it would be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison of the ingredients in frequently recommended products - but I'm having a heck of a time finding a fully disclosed list of ingredients on a dog shampoo. The best I've found for full lists are a few on Petsmart, like the TIGI Pet Head products, and some of the cheap stuff like Top Paws. Chris Christensen, Pure Paws, Plum Silky and Coat Handler have all eluded me. :huh: Tropiclean has all weird half lists with non-INCI names.
> 
> Earth Bath looks interesting, but their ingredients list annoys me.
> Here's Mango Tango
> ...


I agree! However compared to most other products (Pure Paws, Spa Lavish, Biogroom, Pantene, Tresseme, and the other products you listed) I think EarthBath is relatively non-toxic. 

It's funny you bring this up because I just read information on the Organic Consumers Association website and I've decided once I'm done with the products I have now I'm just sticking to the very purest human products (for pets as well as myself). 

Here is a list of very clean products for humans but I'm going to make sure there are no strong essential oils like tea tree or rosemary before buying. It's not only the organic ingredients that make these products very pure, but also that there are no questionable ingredients added (or at least much less than others). Not all the companies have shampoo and conditioner but some do like Aubrey and Terressentials.
Directory of USDA Certified Organic Personal Care Products
Next to home prepared products I think this list offers the next best thing. 
I would still google ingredients to make sure they're non-toxic.

If you do email them please let us know what they say. Whenever I've called companies for ingredient information I've gotten double talk. Nature's Specialties says they're all natural and I don't believe it because of the perfumes I smell in their products. Your post has helped me come to the conclusion that I can't trust any pet products due to disclosure laws. 

Thank you for your scientific perspective on this. I hope you keep posting on this important topic, it's not just skin deep.


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## Kaijah (Apr 20, 2010)

I actually use Aubrey Organics on myself - their Honeysuckle Rose line is my favorite. :wub: I water the conditioners down when I use them on my dogs, since they're really thick. Maltese hair is a little too fine to handle them full strength.
They actually do that "common term" labeling on their bottles as well, but they have it all explained in INCI on their glossary. Their shampoos all say "coconut oil corn oil soap" but are actually coco glucoside based cleansers (which is a huge bonus for me, glucoside cleansers are really gentle and work well in my hard water.). And their conditioners say "coconut fatty acid cream base" when it's just the usual cetearyl alcohol and myristyl alcohol mixture (also note: these are fatty alcohols, not drying alcohols like SD alcohol and ethanol are). I really do think natural companies try too hard to make their labels look all natural. But at least Aubrey makes it plain if you go looking - they also respond well to ingredient e-mail questions (which is rare).

I'm also a huge fan of SheaMoisture products. At least, the gold (raw shea moisture retention) and pink (coconut and hibiscus curl control) labeled lines - the black labeled one is a little too strong of a cleanser, and uses tea tree oil (I'm allergic... hooray). I haven't tried the yucca and baobob line. I think it's relatively new. They do use some essential oils in all of them for scent, so that's something to watch for allergy issues if you or your pets have any.

That's a really interesting link. I've heard of some of those companies (I'm kind of a hair product geek...) but not all. I'll spend a little time looking through, I always like experimenting with new stuff.

Making products is fun, but it is a good bit of work. And expensive, since most places only sell ingredients in bulk amounts. It's also hard to keep things sterile in an at home environment.

I e-mailed EarthBath Saturday night, but I assume no one will be in to answer until Monday. If I even get an answer. :HistericalSmiley: I doubt I'll get anything but "all our ingredients are natural and non toxic" and a link to their on site statements. Most companies run screaming from me after an e-mail or two when I don't just accept the copy-pasted response. I doubt EarthBath is chock full of poison or anything, but I just find the shady labeling practices....well... shady.

I do love to ramble on this topic. A chemistry and biology heavy background and a fair amount of skin contact allergies have helped me learn what to look for.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Yes, I love the honeysuckle too! A few months ago Aarianne (an SM member) posted that she used Aubrey conditioning sprays for her fluffs so I ordered the White Camelia and Jasmine Shine Conditioning Spray (trial size) and the smell so beautiful, works well too. I also have the Aubrey White Camelia shampoo and conditioner, very lovely smell as well (not as strong as the honeysuckle) and I've been happy with them both. I use the green tea clarifying shampoo once a month on myself and Olivea to remove build up, it works really well too.

I decided I'm still going to order the CastleBaths Pet face Cleaner because I don't like using anything with a scent on Olivea's face - and it's also very pure and gentle. I haven't tried the shampoo and conditioner but I will at some point. (Her pet line is called Anna's after her cat.) 

I'm gradually going to try some of the companies on the list as I like to alternate for myself and Olivea. 

I'm really curious about what EarthBath says and especially would like to know how their products are scented. 

Again, so great to have someone on here with a chemistry backround


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## snowflake526 (Feb 23, 2011)

Do you use the Aubrey White Camelia shampoo on Olivea as well, and do you dilute it as well?


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

There were alot of exciting, great natural and/or organic product at the Global Pet Expo. 

Off the top of my head, I remember 
PawGanics
TrueBlue Pet Products 
Aroma Paws
Clean+Green
Espree
Fur+Body
Warren London

These brands seemed worth investigating.

There were many great-quality foods also. It's just difficult to learn about them outside of trade events because they are higher in cost, so distributors hesitate to pick them up. When I get some time, I will organize the information and post if you guys are interested.

I met alot of CEO's of natural products. One thing I learned that confused me was that enzymatic cleaners are not necessarily safe because natural enzymes can actually eat a hole in things. One founder told me that Nature's Miracle was actually horrible for pets. So...anyway, I have to investigate more. I was thought it was safe because it was natural and enzymatic. But maybe not.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

snowflake526 said:


> Do you use the Aubrey White Camelia shampoo on Olivea as well, and do you dilute it as well?


I've only tried the shampoo on myself so far and liked it. I'll let you know how Olivea's hair comes out after using it. I usually don't remember to dilute human shampoos but after the ph lesson I am going to try to remember!


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

princessre said:


> There were alot of exciting, great natural and/or organic product at the Global Pet Expo.
> 
> Off the top of my head, I remember
> PawGanics
> ...


So Nature's Miracle may not be a miracle after all  
Yes, please let us know what you find out Sophia. Sounds like you're getting a great education on pet products!
Is it all enxyme cleaners that are bad or just some? I recently bought one called Natural Chemistry that claims to be completely safe and it has a much lighter smell than Natures Miracle. Seems to work as well.

Looks like a lot of new natural shampoos came on the market. Wonder if Kaijah has any thoughts on which ones she thinks are the purest.


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## Aarianne (Jul 22, 2005)

I haven't tried the Aubrey Organics conditioning sprays actually. I do use Aubrey Organics NuStyle Organic Hair Smoothing Serum though and it smells... interesting.  (kind of like you'd expect a natural product to smell!) 

I just wanted to add something about the pH of shampoos and how I understand that it affects your hair. Most human shampoos do have a pH on the acidic side. Our skin is slightly acidic and our hair even more so, but is that why our shampoos are?

A slightly *acidic or low pH* causes the scales on your hair shaft to lay flat, making the hair *smooth, silky and shiny*. This is one of the reasons that those people with crazy long hair below their butts often swear by an apple cider vinegar rinse after washing their hair and say that it makes their hair shine. 

On the other hand, a slightly *alkaline or high pH* causes the disulfide bonds in the keratin in your hair to break and leaves your hair feeling* brittle, dry and damaged*. 

(So I've read anyway!) 

Human skin is slightly acidic and our hair even more so. When it comes to dogs though, I can't find any info related to their hair pH. Their skin pH apparently varies widely. I don't know that I'd place that much confidence in the study that seems to be the basis of people saying that different breeds have different pH skin. I believe they only tested 18 GSD, 6 Golden Retrievers, and 15 Labradors. I did not read the study, but the numbers seem low... like 6, really?

I also wonder about the pH of dog shampoos and if it really matters. One site I looked at indicated that some dog shampoos are as low as 4.X pH (I forget the exact number and site), though they're more alkaline on average than human shampoos. And I wonder if it's based off of fact or if dog shampoo companies like to push their products by spouting unproven info or fallacies--that dogs require pH balanced shampoos made specifically for their skin... when it may be worse for their coats and acidic shampoos may not be detrimental to their skin at all--or even good for them? I have heard of people using apple cider vinegar solutions on their dogs' coats or directly on skin too... claiming that it reduces skin irritation and increases coat shine. Hm!

Anyway, just some food for thought and maybe something to look into more.


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## Kaijah (Apr 20, 2010)

I'll do some searching on those new shampoos for sure! They give me hope that more people are researching gentle ingredients. 

No response from EarthBath as yet, for those watching at home.




Aarianne said:


> *snip*
> A slightly *acidic or low pH* causes the scales on your hair shaft to lay flat, making the hair *smooth, silky and shiny*. This is one of the reasons that those people with crazy long hair below their butts often swear by an apple cider vinegar rinse after washing their hair and say that it makes their hair shine.
> 
> On the other hand, a slightly *alkaline or high pH* causes the disulfide bonds in the keratin in your hair to break and leaves your hair feeling* brittle, dry and damaged*.
> ...


You're exactly right on how pH affects our hair. :thumbsup: That apple cider vinegar rinse is good for skin - partially for the re-acidifying nature, but it also tends to help people who have "real" dandruff (the kind caused by a scalp infection, rather than just general scalp dryness). You can also do an acid rinse with dissolved citric acid powder in water if you don't like the vinegar smell. Lemon juice can work as well, but it tends to be a little more tricky since it can be drying in too high a concentration. (I might be a crazy long haired person... though I'll admit to being lazy and never doing acid rinses.)


Looking closer at the dog pH conundrum, I've seen most places that state that 6.2 to 7 - 8 number (nothing is consistent...) either cite the same small study you mentioned, or cite nothing at all. Hm. And I was reading the 



 yesterday, and she says the pH of the Maltese is a 5. Which directly contradicts everyone saying dogs are neutral-alkaline. I'm going to see if there's anything concrete in the university's archives... but somehow I'm not expecting to see much hard data.

I want to try testing my own dogs hair/skin, just out of curiosity.... but litmus paper doesn't really react with something that isn't in a solution. ...I don't know how well trying to grind hair/oil and not altering the pH while making a solution to test would work.

Honestly, I think pH isn't a huge issue. I doubt dog companies really worry about it (they might *say* they do) and since there are no regulations on that.... there's no telling.
Not all human shampoos are pH balanced, either. Even when they have easy to balance surfactants. Soap based (that is, true soap made with lye & etc) products are always going to be 8+.

I wonder if the pH thing didn't come around the same way as baby shampoo always being at pH 7 - not for their skin, but so it's the same pH as the eyes to try to make it a tearless shampoo.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

More interesting lessons on ph, thank you Aarianne and Kaijah! 
I'm starting to think the ph may really be a marketing gimmick. 

Aarianne, sorry, I thought the links to the NuStyle Conditioning Serum and Spray meant you had tried them both. However I'm glad I misunderstood because it gave me the idea to use a human conditioning spray. I love the Camelia and Jasmine Conditioning Spray - so thank you for that I've been using it between baths to keep Olivea smelling and looking beautiful.

I agree Kaijah, it is good to see more natural shampoos coming on the market. So much better for our little ones. Looking forward to your input on EarthBath and the other new companies listed!


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## Aarianne (Jul 22, 2005)

Oh neat... a pH of 5! I have that book too, but haven't touched it in years as I thought I had gleaned everything I could from it.

How long is your hair Kaijah? I became interested in hair "health" after I donated my hair to a charity for kids' wigs. I never grow it longer than at most maybe 12" past my shoulder though. Beyond that, my hair is always getting snagged in everything if I'm not careful... coat zippers, purse straps, seat belts, etc., so I'm happy to donate it then. lol

puppy lover... It's no problem! I just probably listed the Green Beaver Jr. Boreal Berries Conditioning Detangler Spray and the Aubrey Organics serum at the same time. Those are the two hair products I've been using for a while now aside from Green Beaver shampoo and conditioner. 

I really like the ingredients in Green Beaver products. They try to buy local, Canadian ingredients whenever available, even if they're more expensive. I think they used to say their ingredients are safe enough for a baby to eat. I don't see them saying that anymore, but the products haven't changed--probably just a legal thing... like they don't want some nutjob feeding her baby only their shampoo for a week and getting ill, then suing them. :blink:

I stopped bugging pet product companies for the full list of ingredients in their "natural" shampoos and conditioners as I never got anywhere. It usually ended in an apologetic email using the phrase "company confidential". I hope Earth Bath gets back to you though Kaijah. I'm curious about their line too.


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## Kaijah (Apr 20, 2010)

I was surprised to come across that little gem in her book - happy though. Something that pertains directly to the Maltese coat!

I've had no luck finding any other quality studies on dog pH. I saw a few references to Advances in Veterinary Dermatology Vol 3 having a study (though it was large dogs again, Golden Retrievers, Spaniels, Labs, mixes etc) but I can't find a full copy of that book - just found Vol 5. Oh well.

Currently my hair is only down to about my tailbone. It is really easy to get caught on stuff, especially if it's windy! I keep it braided or bunned a lot out of habit for work. Hair and Bunsen burners don't mix! :HistericalSmiley:

Okay. Since I seem to have reached a bit of a dead end on the pH study search, I'll *really* start looking through the new shampoos more closely. I work slowly, heh.

No response from EarthBath for those still wondering. Maybe they thought I was going to try and steal their secret formula. Haha


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