# Why are Sires Ch, Dams Not?



## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I've missed it and had no luck on the search feature. I've started noticing when looking at the available puppies threads that often they will have Ch sires, but not dams. I've never paid attention before, but now that I see it I'm curious why this is. Thanks!


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## LUCY N PETS (Apr 21, 2009)

QUOTE (PreciousPrince @ Feb 25 2010, 09:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890449


> I'm sure this has been discussed before but I've missed it and had no luck on the search feature. I've started noticing when looking at the available puppies threads that often they will have Ch sires, but not dams. I've never paid attention before, but now that I see it I'm curious why this is. Thanks![/B]



I think it depends on the breeder and if they have a very good dam that has either made champion or not and can produce good quality traits and help the breed then they will use that dam. 

My Savannah is a champion her full name is:
CH. Hearts Savannah Storm ROM, 
Then went on to be a breeder, The ROM after her name means she had 3 or more babies that went on to get their champion title as well. Hope this helps.
After she had her babies she was then retired and I got to have her in my life and spoil her.

She was shown and bred by Tonia from Rhapsody and she still has some of Savannah's babies that got their champion title and she is breeding some of them now.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Yes, there was another thread not too long ago that was about this: 

Finish the Females

It got into a lot of other questions as well, and I don't know if it ever really answered your question precisely, but there it is if you wanted to read it.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

As Carina said, this was a bit of a topic a few months ago, LOL. 

Personally, I will try to finish my girls, but it's easy for me to say that because I don't have that manyy. My foundation girl Caddy is not a champion but it's not for lack of trying (dropped her tail in the ring). HOWEVER she has recently made her second debut in the show ring and it's going better than the first time so she will be Marina's project to finish her. Better late than never, right? And her daughter Lois just finished and is now a champion, so hopefully I will have all my girls finished. 

I do think it's more important for a male to be a champion though. You want that 'proof' that they are a good specimen of the breed.


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## EmmasMommy (Jun 2, 2008)

This is my theory

I think some breeders ( not all) will invest in getting males to CH ( Champion) because he can be bred for many years.
As for females they need to be in full coat to be shown and thus with the Maltese breed ( and the other long coated breeds) they are "cut down" into a puppy cut when they have a litter. This theoretically can be a deterrent for the time and money investment in female CH. 

For instance........a Doberman or Italian Grayhound ( or any short haired wash and wear breed) bitch can be bred and soon thereafter go back into the ring........sometimes only a month or 2 after her pups are weaned and so she continues to be shown until CH ( or after) with litters in between. 

A Maltese bitch really has to be shown until CH with no breaks for a litter or 2 due to the coat care and length. 

My belief is that half of all the DNA comes from each parent and when I looked for a show dog ( bitch) I wanted CH on both sides. As many as possible.


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## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks for that link. That is quite the thread, haven't gotten all the way through yet, will have to finish it tomorrow. I never read it, I don't read on this section very much, except to look at puppies and apparently not notice pedigrees until now! I can see where the male would be the choice if you can only finish so many dogs as they are able to sire more litters than a female. And you wouldn't want to see the females bred too much just because of their creds either. What Cat mentioned about the coat makes a lot of sense too. 
I guess I was just surprised bc they show to see if they have good dogs and to ensure the betterment of the breed, but then only make sure one parent is a champion. (To varying extents between breeders - not trying to make a blanket statement.) I do see the side where a good breeder knows more than judges, how political judging can be, that many CH's only have one CH parent, ect and they can tell if a girl would be an asset to their breeding program without putting her in the ring. Still, if they can know with a girl, then can't they know with a boy, and then why show at all? Why only ensure some of your dogs are true quality? Just thinking out loud. I guess it's just one of those things with no black and white answer.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (PreciousPrince @ Feb 25 2010, 10:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890490


> Thanks for that link. That is quite the thread, haven't gotten all the way through yet, will have to finish it tomorrow. I never read it, I don't read on this section very much, except to look at puppies and apparently not notice pedigrees until now! I can see where the male would be the choice if you can only finish so many dogs as they are able to sire more litters than a female. And you wouldn't want to see the females bred too much just because of their creds either. What Cat mentioned about the coat makes a lot of sense too.
> I guess I was just surprised bc they show to see if they have good dogs and to ensure the betterment of the breed, but then only make sure one parent is a champion. (To varying extents between breeders - not trying to make a blanket statement.) I do see the side where a good breeder knows more than judges, how political judging can be, that many CH's only have one CH parent, ect and they can tell if a girl would be an asset to their breeding program without putting her in the ring. Still, if they can know with a girl, then can't they know with a boy, and then why show at all? Why only ensure some of your dogs are true quality? Just thinking out loud. I guess it's just one of those things with no black and white answer.[/B]


One thing to keep in mind is that not all maltese LIKE the show ring, but it doesn't mean that they are not great examples of the breed and aren't worthy of being bred. That is why some females are not finished but are bred. Also, it is not cheap to finish a dog, especially if you are a new owner/handler. I don't even want to add up how much I have spent finishing Lois but I can tell you it's at least $4000 and probably* a lo*t more than that. 

You don't keep as many males as you do females so the ones you keep you need to make sure are very nice examples of the breed and you want to make sure they are finished. Dogs can be shown and still be bred, girls don't have this option. And with this breed, coat is VERY important. This is if you are a reputable breeder, at least. You want to see a breeder at least attempting to finish what they have bred. A breeder who breeds a TON yet has never stepped foot in a show ring or had any of their puppies step foot into a show ring is probably someone best avoided. People breeding for profit only will usually buy a finished male and not even attempt to show or finish their girls. But that is a whole different situation, making the distinction between show breeders and not show breeders.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

QUOTE (PreciousPrince @ Feb 25 2010, 11:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890490


> I do see the side where a good breeder knows more than judges, how political judging can be, that many CH's only have one CH parent, ect and they can tell if a girl would be an asset to their breeding program without putting her in the ring. Still, if they can know with a girl, then can't they know with a boy, and then why show at all? Why only ensure some of your dogs are true quality? Just thinking out loud. I guess it's just one of those things with no black and white answer.[/B]


I think you are asking great questions (I was looking for this kind of discussion when I started that other thread, and I am not sure it went the way I imagined, so maybe this revisit will allow for that). :thumbsup: 

I frankly do want to see the girls in the ring as much as possible, so I certainly do not advocate that a breeder hold their girls back. However, I also think that a breeder can continue to show what her girl produces and prove her worth by putting or trying to put ROM or even ROMX titles on an unfinished bitch. In the end, if a girl is able to produce true championship quality get, that is the best judge of her breeding value as far as the show ring goes. Of course, there are other important elements of breeding value (health, temperment). 

In order to get ROM or ROMX of course they have to continue to show. Stopping showing all together is a very bad sign. I know it happens when some breeders become sick of the show world or over-confident of their own abilities and do not believe that they are susceptible to kennel-blindness, but again I think it is not a positive direction.


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

JMO, but it seems like a breeder who only finishes their male can then breed him to several females and make a lot of money of their "champion sired" puppies. I don't think every female has to be shown but I do think it's important to aim for that goal. If the dam of a litter isn't a CH then I would expect both of her parents and most of the dogs in her pedigree to be CHs. I also have trouble swallowing the excuse that a dog just didn't like the ring, especially in certain breeds. When you look at a breed like the Maltese (or the Poodle) they are supposed to be showy, outgoing and friendly. If a dog dislikes showing, then does it really have a temperment you want to perpetuate? Despite what many think showing isn't just a beauty contest, temperment and movement play an important rule too.

One of, if not the most important part of the standard: "Temperament - For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear. His trust and affectionate responsiveness are very appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous."


On another note, I believe the cost of a puppy should reflect the breeder's investment in their dogs. If a breeder is just showing their males, then they aren't spending anywhere near as much on showing and IMO, the cost of their puppies should reflect that.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Feb 26 2010, 05:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890532


> JMO, but it seems like a breeder who only finishes their male can then breed him to several females and make a lot of money of their "champion sired" puppies. I don't think every female has to be shown but I do think it's important to aim for that goal. If the dam of a litter isn't a CH then I would expect both of her parents and most of the dogs in her pedigree to be CHs. I also have trouble swallowing the excuse that a dog just didn't like the ring, especially in certain breeds. When you look at a breed like the Maltese (or the Poodle) they are supposed to be showy, outgoing and friendly. If a dog dislikes showing, then does it really have a temperment you want to perpetuate? Despite what many think showing isn't just a beauty contest, temperment and movement play an important rule too.
> 
> One of, if not the most important part of the standard: "Temperament - For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear. His trust and affectionate responsiveness are very appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous."
> 
> ...


Again, these are excellent points and really look at the question in an annalytic way. 

I totally agree that the standard calls for this type of temperment and yes I also agree that it is one of the most important aspects of the Maltese standard. However, no dog is perfect and long time breeders do have to look at the whole dog and the issues they need to correct in their lines. So take this example you have a beautiful bitch who excells in areas where your line is weak. . She has a "softer" temperment than most of your other dogs, but she has many outstanding qualities. (Great coat, great structure and angulation, beautiful expression)She does well in a home environment and is most of the things the the standard says like--affectionate, repsonsive, gentle and playful--but just a bit uncomfortable in the chaos of the show ring. Do you take her out where she is uncomfortable and force her to do something that makes her unhappy? Do you pet her out because of this one "fault' when she has so much else going well for her? Again, this is where I trust some established "show" breeders to be able to make a call. 

I also agree that the cost of a puppy should reflect a breeders investment. And if a breeder is rarely, if ever, finishing their females, and yet charging "show-breeder" prices this is a red flag. If the majority of the dams in a pedigree are unfinished it certainly would raise questions for me.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Here I come with no knowledge, just my big mouth....  :blush: I think it's pretty hard to keep a female's coat in perfect condition, especially if the breeder owns multiple dogs. What if she/he has a few *gorgeous show quality* females who are of breeding age and they've been shown but are not champions yet.... Then you have champion males...

I don't see the harm in breeding them. Chances are they'll get show quality pups, well same chances as if the female was actually finished, that is.

Just wanted to add that Ava's parents are both champioms. I enjoy showing her because she's so darn pretty (JMO). Hey, I'd be estatic if she ever got one point!!!!!! :biggrin: She's only half the size of the other malts in the ring...and her coat is cottony....but she won't ever be bred, so it doesn't really matter. We. both enjoy the atmosphere...she's a natural show girl


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Feb 26 2010, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890642


> QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Feb 26 2010, 05:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890532





> JMO, but it seems like a breeder who only finishes their male can then breed him to several females and make a lot of money of their "champion sired" puppies. I don't think every female has to be shown but I do think it's important to aim for that goal. If the dam of a litter isn't a CH then I would expect both of her parents and most of the dogs in her pedigree to be CHs. I also have trouble swallowing the excuse that a dog just didn't like the ring, especially in certain breeds. When you look at a breed like the Maltese (or the Poodle) they are supposed to be showy, outgoing and friendly. If a dog dislikes showing, then does it really have a temperment you want to perpetuate? Despite what many think showing isn't just a beauty contest, temperment and movement play an important rule too.
> 
> One of, if not the most important part of the standard: "Temperament - For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear. His trust and affectionate responsiveness are very appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous."
> 
> ...


Again, these are excellent points and really look at the question in an annalytic way. 

*I totally agree that the standard calls for this type of temperment and yes I also agree that it is one of the most important aspects of the Maltese standard. However, no dog is perfect and long time breeders do have to look at the whole dog and the issues they need to correct in their lines. So take this example you have a beautiful bitch who excells in areas where your line is weak. . She has a "softer" temperment than most of your other dogs, but she has many outstanding qualities. (Great coat, great structure and angulation, beautiful expression)She does well in a home environment and is most of the things the the standard says like--affectionate, repsonsive, gentle and playful--but just a bit uncomfortable in the chaos of the show ring. Do you take her out where she is uncomfortable and force her to do something that makes her unhappy? Do you pet her out because of this one "fault' when she has so much else going well for her? Again, this is where I trust some established "show" breeders to be able to make a call. *

I also agree that the cost of a puppy should reflect a breeders investment. And if a breeder is rarely, if ever, finishing their females, and yet charging "show-breeder" prices this is a red flag. If the majority of the dams in a pedigree are unfinished it certainly would raise questions for me.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I completely agree with what you have written here. My girl Caddy is a* perfect* example of this. In almost every other environment, she is a happy, friendly well-adjusted maltese with the sweetest temperament ever. When I first got her for show, I was VERY new and I'm sure that did not help the situation because I sure wasn't confident, so her tail dropped in the ring and she looked absolutely miserable. I didn't torture her for long because she just didn't like it. She has had three litters (with 5 viable puppies) and not one of those puppies has had a shyer temperament. Lois went through a period where she was very wary, but it didn't last long. Caddy is now four years old and Marina showed her this weekend to help build a major and while she didn't place very high (her coat is still pretty short from being shaved) she sure didn't act like she was miserable, like she used to. Caddy is going to be Marina's special project to show and hopefully finish, and like I said, better late than never! 

I think a true shy temperament in many situations (uncomfortable even at home) should be bred with caution. If a breeder is breeding primarily for their next show dogs, this practice wouldn't be in their best interest. I don't think there is really any right or wrong answer here, and like Carina said, this is where I trust established breeders to do what is in the best interest of their breeding program.


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## mom2b (Jan 15, 2010)

In my search, it just so happens, that all the breeders I have looked at have champion girls as well as champion males. I don't think it is rare to see this I think it is a matter of looking in the right place. I am sure not all dogs can be shown for whatever reason but that might be one of many so I would look more at the overall record of their breeding and showing vs just 1 or 2 dogs that they might have not shown.
JMO


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Feb 26 2010, 05:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890532


> I also have trouble swallowing the excuse that a dog just didn't like the ring, especially in certain breeds. When you look at a breed like the Maltese (or the Poodle) they are supposed to be showy, outgoing and friendly. If a dog dislikes showing, then does it really have a temperment you want to perpetuate? Despite what many think showing isn't just a beauty contest, temperment and movement play an important rule too.[/B]


I personally don't equate "didn't like the ring" with not having a temperament worth perpetuating. There are many reasons why a dog with a perfectly wonderful temperament may not like the ring. Let's talk about the social butterfly, the dog who wants to say hello to the world and play with all his/her new found friends. Or Ms. Busybody, the dog who is confident, inquisitive, outgoing, energetic, everything that a Maltese should be. From the dog's point of view ... "I get woken up at 4 a.m. for yet another attempt to drown me (a bath), here comes the wind machine (dryer) and I'm told to stand still, why are you putting me in jail (a crate) and carrying me to the car for a 2 hour drive, carry me (jail cell and all) into a building full of all my soon to be dog friends (who are obviously not in jail), take me out of my jail cell (freedom at last?), and make me lay quietly on a table for 2 hours while having to withstand the same brushing that happened 3 hours earlier, not to mention teasing, combing, spraying, more brushing, teasing, combing, spraying. Why couldn't I have been born a Pug? Finally, I'm off the table and have four feet on the floor. Life is good ... wrong. Now I'm supposed to walk pretty and pretend that there's nobody in front or in back of me that wants to be my friend? This stinks, why couldn't I just stay at home with all my other friends ... (head drops, tail drops)." Not every dog wants to go to dog shows. On the other hand, there are many dogs who love this routine, love all the activity, attention, oohing and aahing. Sometimes you never know how your dog is going to deal with the show scene until you actually get them there. Every dog is different and what they think of the show scene is not necessary indicative of the quality of the offspring they may produce.

MaryH


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Feb 26 2010, 04:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890532


> JMO, but it seems like a breeder who only finishes their male can then breed him to several females and make a lot of money of their "champion sired" puppies. I don't think every female has to be shown but I do think it's important to aim for that goal. If the dam of a litter isn't a CH then I would expect both of her parents and most of the dogs in her pedigree to be CHs. I also have trouble swallowing the excuse that a dog just didn't like the ring, especially in certain breeds. When you look at a breed like the Maltese (or the Poodle) they are supposed to be showy, outgoing and friendly. If a dog dislikes showing, then does it really have a temperment you want to perpetuate? Despite what many think showing isn't just a beauty contest, temperment and movement play an important rule too.
> 
> One of, if not the most important part of the standard: "Temperament - For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear. His trust and affectionate responsiveness are very appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous."
> 
> ...


Have you tried to grow a Maltese coat? If not get serious and try it. It is one of the most difficult coats to grow and maintain. You have to learn the technique of growing and maintaining the coat. Someone cannot just "tell" you how to do it. You have to learn by doing it. Each Maltese has a different coat. With that said, because of that, alot of my females are not finished. I would actually ruin the coat before I could finish them. I am telling you it doesn't take much to ruin a coat. You have to have the right brushes, combs, dryers, etc. to do this. Breeder's watch their dogs in coat like a hawk to prevent them from ruining their own coat. Rubbing on something. Playing with another dog that has pulled on the coat. Saliva breaks coat. There are *many* reasons why a dog or girl isn't finished. When you get to MaryH's note you will understand the dogs point of view. Off my soap box. 

Maybe the price of the puppy should reflect the degree of work put into showing and finishing a dog. The cost of showing a dog is very expensive, weather you do it yourself or hire a handler to do it for you. Some breeder's make money and some do not. I have yet to "make" money on selling puppies. I know other breeder's do. 
Look at this pedigree. Look at how many BIS/BISS dogs are in it. This dog is all ready winning groups and it won't be long before he starts winning BIS. http://www.rhapsodymaltese.com/pedigrees/ped_henry.pdf
You can see the "years" that this breeder has put into her breeding program. She is also a handler and it is easier in *some* ways for her to finish most of her girls and boys. She has earned the right, in my books, to ask the prices she asks for her dogs.
Here is another breeder's dog who has great dogs in the pedigree, but is outcrossed. He is a group winning dog and has won BIS/BISS. 
http://www.woodele.de/maltese/cgi-bin/gene...p;db=maltol.dbw
She has earned the right to ask for higher prices. It doesn't take her very long to finish a dog either. She knows the judges well. Takes the type of dog the judge likes to them and wins. 

Then there are breeder's like me. I have Champion boys and girls, but they are related to close for me to breed CH to CH. A stud fee to a dog like the one above is at least $1500 to $2000. I can't come up with that kind of money, so I breed to what I have to improve what I have. I finished 2 girls to the tune of $7000. That is just handling fees. It doesn't include the cost of getting the dogs to him. And other minor things that come up. He did it much faster than I could have too. I am in it for the fun. And breeding pretty Maltese that people can enjoy owning. 

Yes, there are those breeders out there who breed males and say they are show breeder's. I know of several that have done this and are doing this. The whole idea behind it is that people who do not show or have any idea of the show world will not know what they are doing. In other words you have to be smarter than they are. I didn't know when I first started. I was taken a few times. I remember that when I sell puppies to people. I don't want them to go through what I did to own a nice Maltese. JMO
Tina


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Feb 27 2010, 01:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890842


> QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Feb 26 2010, 05:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=890532





> I also have trouble swallowing the excuse that a dog just didn't like the ring, especially in certain breeds. When you look at a breed like the Maltese (or the Poodle) they are supposed to be showy, outgoing and friendly. If a dog dislikes showing, then does it really have a temperment you want to perpetuate? Despite what many think showing isn't just a beauty contest, temperment and movement play an important rule too.[/B]


I personally don't equate "didn't like the ring" with not having a temperament worth perpetuating. There are many reasons why a dog with a perfectly wonderful temperament may not like the ring. Let's talk about the social butterfly, the dog who wants to say hello to the world and play with all his/her new found friends. Or Ms. Busybody, the dog who is confident, inquisitive, outgoing, energetic, everything that a Maltese should be. From the dog's point of view ... "I get woken up at 4 a.m. for yet another attempt to drown me (a bath), here comes the wind machine (dryer) and I'm told to stand still, why are you putting me in jail (a crate) and carrying me to the car for a 2 hour drive, carry me (jail cell and all) into a building full of all my soon to be dog friends (who are obviously not in jail), take me out of my jail cell (freedom at last?), and make me lay quietly on a table for 2 hours while having to withstand the same brushing that happened 3 hours earlier, not to mention teasing, combing, spraying, more brushing, teasing, combing, spraying. Why couldn't I have been born a Pug? Finally, I'm off the table and have four feet on the floor. Life is good ... wrong. Now I'm supposed to walk pretty and pretend that there's nobody in front or in back of me that wants to be my friend? This stinks, why couldn't I just stay at home with all my other friends ... (head drops, tail drops)." Not every dog wants to go to dog shows. On the other hand, there are many dogs who love this routine, love all the activity, attention, oohing and aahing. Sometimes you never know how your dog is going to deal with the show scene until you actually get them there. Every dog is different and what they think of the show scene is not necessary indicative of the quality of the offspring they may produce.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]
OMG Mary :smrofl: :smrofl: :smrofl: You just made me crack up so. After going to Westminster I get it. In other words look for a puppy whose parents were convicts in disguise. :HistericalSmiley: Sorry :back2topic:


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