# More on Cesar, and what you should be watching...



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I previously posted This Article that does an excellent job explaining why I do not recommend people following Cesar Milan's advice. 

Here is a short piece written by a veterinary behaviorist from Purdue University. This vet previewed episodes of the show before National Geographic began airing it and advised against airing it. Dr. Luescher

So, what should you be watching? Well, I finally had a chance to view multiple episodes of "Its Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. I can now personally say four paws up! Victoria Stillwell does a wonderful job of addressing the cause of the dog's behavior and using positive methods to resolve the situation, not just band aid it.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I like her so much more than Cesar, just wish it was on more often instead of Animal Cops!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I am a faithful watcher of "It's Me Or The Dog." I have learned a lot from that show. Victoria Stillwell is now in Atlanta and she works with the local Atlanta Rescues.


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

I don't have cable/satellite.. but I'll have to catch this show next time I'm in a hotel.


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## Suz & the Fluffs (Mar 11, 2006)

Good info. thanks for sharing. 

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jun 14 2008, 09:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591195


> I am a faithful watcher of "It's Me Or The Dog." I have learned a lot from that show. Victoria Stillwell is now in Atlanta and she works with the local Atlanta Rescues.[/B]


I love that show too.


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 14 2008, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591168


> I previously posted This Article that does an excellent job explaining why I do not recommend people following Cesar Milan's advice.
> 
> Here is a short piece written by a veterinary behaviorist from Purdue University. This vet previewed episodes of the show before National Geographic began airing it and advised against airing it. Dr. Luescher
> 
> So, what should you be watching? Well, I finally had a chance to view multiple episodes of "Its Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. I can now personally say four paws up! Victoria Stillwell does a wonderful job of addressing the cause of the dog's behavior and using positive methods to resolve the situation, not just band aid it.[/B]


I also, and my Personal Trainer for Midis, did not agree with the Cesar Milan's type of training. My trainer used the timing, consistency and motivation as the primary tools for training. Agree or disagree, you have 1.3 seconds to respond to your dog's action. Any longer and they may have no clue what behavior/command you are rewarding or correcting. I was not comfortable at first with "training collar" which basically has prongs that poke into the neck, if/when you correct him/her. They are not sharp, they are blunt and I have only elicited a yelp once (early on) when Midis did not respond to a gentle pull to stop his bad behavior. Granted, I was not at first comfortable with this collar and told the trainer so. But he worked Midis with a regular leather collar, then the training collar turned inside out (no spokes turned to touch his neck) and then with the training collar turned the right way, into the neck. I watched him do all of this for about an hour in my home so I was comfortable that he knew what he was doing and was not hurting my dog. I have never once made Midis show distress, fear or pain, but by God he sure is paying attention and obeying commands! Of course, he does it for the treats. And you can just see in his eyes how much he wants to please you.

I'll probably get some "OMIDOGS!" over this training collar thing, but I just have to say you can't argue with what works and especially when it is not causing pain or discomfort. It is only uncomfortable when you give the leash a sharp pull. But, we have no more out of control barking and he will obey several commands now and seemingly LOVES the training sessions.

Cyndi


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Thanks, Jackie for sharing. I really liked your articles. I've used the training collar on *very* difficult to control dogs. My daughter's boxer was the last one I used it on. My SIL thought it was cruel, but by golly he obeyed when it was used. He is wild out of control jump the fence kinda dog.


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

QUOTE (Tina @ Jun 14 2008, 11:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591274


> Thanks, Jackie for sharing. I really liked your articles. I've used the training collar on *very* difficult to control dogs. My daughter's boxer was the last one I used it on. My SIL thought it was cruel, but by golly he obeyed when it was used. He is wild out of control jump the fence kinda dog.[/B]


Glad to see (as of this time) that nobody has bashed me about the training collar. But honestly, whether they are a big bulldog or a little 9 lbs Maltese that thinks he rules the roost, then SOMETHING has to be done. After all, the collar isn't like a shock collar (which I adamantly refused to use!) and doesn't cause any pain until you, the handler, jerks harder than necessary on the leash. Yeah, I did NOT like the looks of it; I had never seen one before. But after watching Midis sit perfectly still and compliant when I put it on him and to see completely comfortable in it, I am now using it and the leash daily when he is not in his kennel and I am at home. 

Cyndi


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

^ I'm not bashing... just sharing some thoughts!! :hiding: 

Maltese have very delicate necks so just be very careful that you don't injure him. I don't allow anything around Kallie's or Catcher's necks. 

I do agree that when training you need to have control over the dog and I think this can be done with a harness and treats. With a large dog the collars may be OK for a short time ... Some are so big and strong that sometimes they can't be restrained any other way. But with a tiny Maltese we can easily get control of them.

I took my first Malt, Rosebud, and Kallie to some training classes and was able to teach them a lot without a training collar.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

A pinch/prong collar is actually more gentle than correcting a dog on a flat, regular collar. The reason is that the prong collar has equal pressure around the whole neck whereas other collars concentrate their pressure under the neck on the trachea. Also, a dog is not constantly pulling on a prong collar where they might with a regular collar. Properly used, a prong will not damage the trachea. 

I, personally, keep the prong in my toolbox, but I much prefer to use a gentle solution such as a gentle leader or easy walk harness. What I could use on one dog would be completely inappropriate for another. Some dogs learn very well with properly administered and timed corrections. Other dogs will shut down with the most gentle of corrections.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I just thought I would add that none of my dogs wear harnesses. I don't like them, my dogs don't like them. I use a show lead or collar/leash and simply train my dogs not to pull.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 15 2008, 12:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591397


> A pinch/prong collar is actually more gentle than correcting a dog on a flat, regular collar. The reason is that the prong collar has equal pressure around the whole neck whereas other collars concentrate their pressure under the neck on the trachea. Also, a dog is not constantly pulling on a prong collar where they might with a regular collar. Properly used, a prong will not damage the trachea.
> 
> I, personally, keep the prong in my toolbox, but I much prefer to use a gentle solution such as a gentle leader or easy walk harness. What I could use on one dog would be completely inappropriate for another. Some dogs learn very well with properly administered and timed corrections. Other dogs will shut down with the most gentle of corrections.[/B]


That's interesting, Jackie. I think my aversion to collars stems from my first Malt, Rosebud. She was in a training class where they "required" choke collars. That was in the early 90s and I didn't know anything about collapsed trachea or much of anything about Malts. When the class first started, one of the trainers, who raised Rottweilers, jerked on the leash while Rosebud had the choke collar on and it about jerked her off the ground. It was very upsetting to see this. I guess the trainer was used to large dogs. 

After that incident, they let me use a regular collar in the class and Rosebud learned a lot of commands with the regular collar and food rewards. If I would have kept it up at home she would have been very well trained. But I didn't, so she forgot most of what she learned. :hiding: 

Eventually Rosebud did develop trachea problems and I attributed it to that incident and my using a leather collar for many years until I learned more. I can't count on K & C not to pull so I feel best with a harness. they love their harnesses so I feel it is the safest choice.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 15 2008, 12:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591403


> That's interesting, Jackie. I think my aversion to collars stems from my first Malt, Rosebud. She was in a training class where they "required" choke collars. That was in the early 90s and I didn't know anything about collapsed trachea or much of anything about Malts. The trainer, who raised Rottweilers, jerked on the leash while Rosebud had the choke collar on and it about jerked her off the ground. It was very upsetting to see this. I guess the trainer was used to large dogs.
> 
> They let me use a regular collar in the class and Rosebud learned a lot of commands with the regular collar and food rewards. If I would have kept it up at home she would have been very well trained. But I didn't, so she forgot most of what she learned. :hiding:
> 
> Eventually Rosebud did develop trachea problems and I attributed it to that incident and my using a leather collar for many years until I learned more. I can't count on K & C not to pull so I feel best with a harness. they love their harnesses so I feel it is the safest choice.[/B]


I don't use or recommend regular choke chains. They do not apply even pressure. The prong is more humane and safe IMO. Plus I cannot tell you how many people put choke chains on incorrectly. 

NO training collar or head harness should be used unless you know how to properly fit and use it.


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 15 2008, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591397


> A pinch/prong collar is actually more gentle than correcting a dog on a flat, regular collar. The reason is that the prong collar has equal pressure around the whole neck whereas other collars concentrate their pressure under the neck on the trachea. Also, a dog is not constantly pulling on a prong collar where they might with a regular collar. Properly used, a prong will not damage the trachea.
> 
> I, personally, keep the prong in my toolbox, but I much prefer to use a gentle solution such as a gentle leader or easy walk harness. What I could use on one dog would be completely inappropriate for another. Some dogs learn very well with properly administered and timed corrections. Other dogs will shut down with the most gentle of corrections.[/B]


Thanks, Jackie. My trainer tried a regular collar, then the prong collar turned backwards (no prongs to pinch the neck) but in the end we just needed the prong collar. Midis was quite obstinate, but is quite the gentleman now! 

I was not comfortable AT ALL when the trainer first showed me the collar! And I proceeded to explain to him about the collapsed tracheas in Maltese but he said that for a fact the prong collar, in his experience, had never caused internal damage, as a choke collar is more prone to do. He also told me that if a dog has a very short, thin coat of hair is very obstinate it might cause some external irritation, but in a Maltese with such thick a coat he'd never seen that happen. 

I was not using a collar or a harness on Midis on a regular basis, so I really had NO control over him. I would use one or the other if I took him out somewhere, but since he gets carsick he would much rather be home in his kennel than in a car. I will not use the prong collar (or any collar or harness) on Midis once we have well established the house rules and his obedience to commands. We have a fenced in yard and no real reason to put one on him, other than training purposes. And I can't argue with these results!

Cyndi


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 15 2008, 12:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591405


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 15 2008, 12:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591403





> That's interesting, Jackie. I think my aversion to collars stems from my first Malt, Rosebud. She was in a training class where they "required" choke collars. That was in the early 90s and I didn't know anything about collapsed trachea or much of anything about Malts. The trainer, who raised Rottweilers, jerked on the leash while Rosebud had the choke collar on and it about jerked her off the ground. It was very upsetting to see this. I guess the trainer was used to large dogs.
> 
> They let me use a regular collar in the class and Rosebud learned a lot of commands with the regular collar and food rewards. If I would have kept it up at home she would have been very well trained. But I didn't, so she forgot most of what she learned. :hiding:
> 
> Eventually Rosebud did develop trachea problems and I attributed it to that incident and my using a leather collar for many years until I learned more. I can't count on K & C not to pull so I feel best with a harness. they love their harnesses so I feel it is the safest choice.[/B]


I don't use or recommend regular choke chains. They do not apply even pressure. The prong is more humane and safe IMO. Plus I cannot tell you how many people put choke chains on incorrectly. 

NO training collar or head harness should be used unless you know how to properly fit and use it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The trainer I used spent some time showing me exactly how to and not to put the prong collar on Midis. And explained the hows and whys of this. He doesn't feel that choke collars are safe to use on any dogs and doesn't use them no matter what size dog he's training. He just uses correction and reward using the basic Timing, Consistency and Motivation methods. I'm sure there are many different schools of thought on the "correct" method of training. But I can't argue with the success we've had here. And for sure, Midis is much happier! He loves for me to work with him and seems to let me know if he wants a training session. He has his ways of communicating (such as going and getting into his "Climb" bed, sitting up, and staring at me with a very alert and ready look on his face. He's saying "Let's play Training!")

Cyndi


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Personally, I find a trainer feeling they have to use a prong on a 9 lb dog means the trainer could use more education.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I'm late to the latest on this thread, but in case anyone checks in again I was wondering if any of the training specialists are familiar with the martingale collar and had any thoughts on that?

Also, I started using a regular collar on Stewie since his hair is so long and I can't handle the matting with the harness....he behaves much better with the collar! Less pulling! I was shocked......but happy and relieved. I think he pulls on the harness because he can and it doesn't hurt or bother him physically in any way. Of course, I stop walking when he pulls, too.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Is it okay to use a collar if your Malt doesn't pull? Nikki doesn't pull at all when I walk her. I use a fairly short leash and I'd love to use a collar because of the matting issue from the harness.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jun 16 2008, 09:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591729


> Is it okay to use a collar if your Malt doesn't pull? Nikki doesn't pull at all when I walk her. I use a fairly short leash and I'd love to use a collar because of the matting issue from the harness.[/B]


I am no way qualified to answer this question - but if Nikki doesn't pull, then I don't see how a collar could hurt. I believe the dangers are when there is traction, or tension involved, and if there is none, then I see no danger. Again, just my opinion, and I am certainly not qualified to give any 'educated' advice ... I tend to stick with common sense B) works for me!


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Jun 14 2008, 11:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591285


> QUOTE (Tina @ Jun 14 2008, 11:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591274





> Thanks, Jackie for sharing. I really liked your articles. I've used the training collar on *very* difficult to control dogs. My daughter's boxer was the last one I used it on. My SIL thought it was cruel, but by golly he obeyed when it was used. He is wild out of control jump the fence kinda dog.[/B]


Glad to see (as of this time) that nobody has bashed me about the training collar. But honestly, whether they are a big bulldog or a little 9 lbs Maltese that thinks he rules the roost, then SOMETHING has to be done. After all, the collar isn't like a shock collar (which I adamantly refused to use!) and doesn't cause any pain until you, the handler, jerks harder than necessary on the leash. Yeah, I did NOT like the looks of it; I had never seen one before. But after watching Midis sit perfectly still and compliant when I put it on him and to see completely comfortable in it, I am now using it and the leash daily when he is not in his kennel and I am at home. 

Cyndi
[/B][/QUOTE]


Cyndi,

I had to use the pronged collar on Izzy (4lbs) for a week or so. She just refused to listen to me - now she is great - and doesn't need it at all. Izzy is really stubborn. Like you, I worked very closley with my trainer to make sure I new the proper way to use the collar without hurting her (i was against it at first). IMO there was actually less stress on her neck and throat from the pronged collar used correctly than the other methods we tried, and she responded immediately.

Leslie


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (tamizami @ Jun 16 2008, 01:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591693


> I'm late to the latest on this thread, but in case anyone checks in again I was wondering if any of the training specialists are familiar with the martingale collar and had any thoughts on that?
> 
> Also, I started using a regular collar on Stewie since his hair is so long and I can't handle the matting with the harness....he behaves much better with the collar! Less pulling! I was shocked......but happy and relieved. I think he pulls on the harness because he can and it doesn't hurt or bother him physically in any way. Of course, I stop walking when he pulls, too.[/B]


A martingale or "limited slip" collar is great for dogs that try to slip out of their collars or if you have a hard time with a buckle or quick snap (like getting hair caught in it). The nylon and chain ones tend to get caught. Get a just nylon one (premier makes very nice ones). It is not a choke collar. 

I use collars or show leads on my dogs. I think a collar is fine if your dog does not pull. Harnesses can encourage pulling (look at sled dogs).


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

QUOTE (WoofLife @ Jun 16 2008, 11:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591865


> QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Jun 14 2008, 11:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591285





> QUOTE (Tina @ Jun 14 2008, 11:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591274





> Thanks, Jackie for sharing. I really liked your articles. I've used the training collar on *very* difficult to control dogs. My daughter's boxer was the last one I used it on. My SIL thought it was cruel, but by golly he obeyed when it was used. He is wild out of control jump the fence kinda dog.[/B]


Glad to see (as of this time) that nobody has bashed me about the training collar. But honestly, whether they are a big bulldog or a little 9 lbs Maltese that thinks he rules the roost, then SOMETHING has to be done. After all, the collar isn't like a shock collar (which I adamantly refused to use!) and doesn't cause any pain until you, the handler, jerks harder than necessary on the leash. Yeah, I did NOT like the looks of it; I had never seen one before. But after watching Midis sit perfectly still and compliant when I put it on him and to see completely comfortable in it, I am now using it and the leash daily when he is not in his kennel and I am at home. 

Cyndi
[/B][/QUOTE]


Cyndi,

I had to use the pronged collar on Izzy (4lbs) for a week or so. She just refused to listen to me - now she is great - and doesn't need it at all. Izzy is really stubborn. Like you, I worked very closley with my trainer to make sure I new the proper way to use the collar without hurting her (i was against it at first). IMO there was actually less stress on her neck and throat from the pronged collar used correctly than the other methods we tried, and she responded immediately.

Leslie
[/B][/QUOTE]

Leslie,
We are only one full week (or is it now two?) past Midis' 5-day training session so I am having regular 5-10 minute sessions with him using the collar and leash myself at home still. I don't plan on having to use it much longer, but Midis would not pay any attention to me at all prior to this. I am amazed at the improvement in him. Although 5-days of training is not very long I chose to use the tools and methods myself to see if I could control him rather than keeping on with the $$ for the trainer. If not, then it will be worth the extra money, but so far so good.

I'm glad you got Izzy in shape! It's really frustrating to have a loving, lovely little dog that is stubborn and set on doing what he/she wants to do when he/she wants to do it, and to heck with the humans' opinion. I don't believe I"ve ever had a dog as stubborn or headstrong as Midis, regardless of size!

Cyndi


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 14 2008, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591168


> I previously posted This Article that does an excellent job explaining why I do not recommend people following Cesar Milan's advice.
> 
> Here is a short piece written by a veterinary behaviorist from Purdue University. This vet previewed episodes of the show before National Geographic began airing it and advised against airing it. Dr. Luescher
> 
> So, what should you be watching? Well, I finally had a chance to view multiple episodes of "Its Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. I can now personally say four paws up! Victoria Stillwell does a wonderful job of addressing the cause of the dog's behavior and using positive methods to resolve the situation, not just band aid it.[/B]




I don't think there's anything wrong with Cesar's methods. I like him actually. He's not hurting the dogs, and they actually learn from it. Everyone has their own way of doing things, it's ok as long as the dogs are trained and are stable. His home pack of dogs are actually stable and extremely well trained. I like that he tries to teach people that dogs are dogs, not children. Dog behavior and psychology does not become human because we take them home. They're still dogs.


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## jazak (Feb 12, 2008)

QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 24 2008, 09:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=595928


> QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 14 2008, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591168





> I previously posted This Article that does an excellent job explaining why I do not recommend people following Cesar Milan's advice.
> 
> Here is a short piece written by a veterinary behaviorist from Purdue University. This vet previewed episodes of the show before National Geographic began airing it and advised against airing it. Dr. Luescher
> 
> So, what should you be watching? Well, I finally had a chance to view multiple episodes of "Its Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. I can now personally say four paws up! Victoria Stillwell does a wonderful job of addressing the cause of the dog's behavior and using positive methods to resolve the situation, not just band aid it.[/B]




I don't think there's anything wrong with Cesar's methods. I like him actually. He's not hurting the dogs, and they actually learn from it. Everyone has their own way of doing things, it's ok as long as the dogs are trained and are stable. His home pack of dogs are actually stable and extremely well trained. I like that he tries to teach people that dogs are dogs, not children. Dog behavior and psychology does not become human because we take them home. They're still dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I would NEVER under any circumstances use any of Cesar's methods on my dogs. There are more effective ways to handle behavioral issues that do not put the animal under so much stress. I DO realize that my dogs are not kids, but that being said, positive reinforcement is, in my opinion, the best method for training, whether it be children or dogs!!!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE


> I would NEVER under any circumstances use any of Cesar's methods on my dogs. There are more effective ways to handle behavioral issues that do not put the animal under so much stress. I DO realize that my dogs are not kids, but that being said, positive reinforcement is, in my opinion, the best method for training, whether it be children or dogs!!![/B]



:goodpost: :amen:


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (jazak @ Jun 24 2008, 08:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=595944


> I would NEVER under any circumstances use any of Cesar's methods on my dogs. There are more effective ways to handle behavioral issues that do not put the animal under so much stress. I DO realize that my dogs are not kids, but that being said, positive reinforcement is, in my opinion, the best method for training, whether it be children or dogs!!![/B]


On the surface I agree with your statement, however, almost, if not all, the situations Cesar is dealing with on the show are extreme and usually "red zone" dogs who are vicious for various reasons. Add to that they are usually big dogs. If you have never been in that situation with a dog who is trying to "kill", you would never consider his methods. I personally would consider using him to save a red zone dog who is at the door of being euthanized because he is dangerous. Not to train a puppy or a small dog who just needs to learn basic manners. That is not what his show is aimed at.

I've tried watching "It's Me or the Dog" and have had to turn it off mid story. That woman drives me nuts (so it's my personal reaction to her). She is all fiddly-fuss and a lot of what she says doesn't make sense to me.

I believe in positive reinforcement, not particularly treats but sometimes treats in a normal dog. Maybe starting the behavior with the treats and then using encouragement, praise and petting after. I don't pretend I know how to train, just that some things seem right to me and others my gut reacts.


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## k9Cracker (Feb 22, 2006)

I think that first article is ridiculous, and not well supported, or stated at all. 

I think Ceasar is great and all the dogs he has rehabilitated is just testimony to how good he is. The dogs on the show are "red zone dogs." That being said, I don't think I have met any maltese that are red zone dogs, soooo that means you wouldn't have to use such extreme measures. Most of the Ceasar methods that we would have to use for everyday are incorporated into a lot of other training methods. It is just taking charge and not letting your dog walk all over you. I think good training consists of a mixture of methods. Positive re-inforcement is great for training tricks, but not behavior. I totally agree with ceasar on the dog's state of mind, and you can't change that with a bunch of treats. 

I really like "It's me of the Dog" as well, but I can't believe people would even let their dogs get like that. Some people should just not have dogs, I think it is pretty common sense how a dog should behave. I don't think that is some cases she really solves the problem, where Ceasar would have--she just makes the problem "smaller".


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

I only believe in POSITIVE training for maltese. I would never, ever even consider training my dog by making him afraid that he will be uncomfortable or feel some sort of pain. The thought of that is so upsetting to me.


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## mpappie (Jun 28, 2005)

QUOTE (k9Cracker @ Jun 24 2008, 03:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=595990


> I think that first article is ridiculous, and not well supported, or stated at all.
> 
> I think Ceasar is great and all the dogs he has rehabilitated is just testimony to how good he is. The dogs on the show are "red zone dogs." That being said, I don't think I have met any maltese that are red zone dogs, soooo that means you wouldn't have to use such extreme measures. Most of the Ceasar methods that we would have to use for everyday are incorporated into a lot of other training methods. It is just taking charge and not letting your dog walk all over you. I think good training consists of a mixture of methods. Positive re-inforcement is great for training tricks, but not behavior. I totally agree with ceasar on the dog's state of mind, and you can't change that with a bunch of treats.
> 
> I really like "It's me of the Dog" as well, but I can't believe people would even let their dogs get like that. Some people should just not have dogs, I think it is pretty common sense how a dog should behave. I don't think that is some cases she really solves the problem, where Ceasar would have--she just makes the problem "smaller".[/B]


great post!!! there is more than one way!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I have no problem with utilizing a variety of safe methods. The bottom line is Cesar's methods are NOT safe and can aggravate the situation. 

For example, you have a dog who growls at passing people. Cesar's solution is to put a choke or pinch collar on the dog and correct it for growling every time a person passes. If you look at the dog's body language, its anxiety is increasing. The dog stops growling. What most commonly happens is that the dog's growling is extinguished so when threatened closely, it goes straight to the biting since warning signs (growling, posturing) are not permitted. Correcting the dog did not teach the dog that passing people are okay...it taught the dog that people passing means bad things happen. 

It is not human psychology being used on dogs; it is animal behavior studies teaching us about dog psychology. 

IMO, all you have to do is look at the warning on his show - telling people NOT to use his methods. I suggestion you re-read the original article and follow the links it provides to a variety of reliable sources.


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## jazak (Feb 12, 2008)

:goodpost: 

I think it is like a time bomb waiting to explode!!! The dog will learn to fear you and for some time it will work, but one day that fear can snap and turn on you! That anxiety and fear just build up and up until the dog can no longer control it. It is NEVER okay to use fear or intimidation tactics on any animal. That only teaches them what not to do. They need to learn to deal with the issues that bring on that behavior. I reallize that some are extreme cases, but MOST of that is brought on by fear. Puppies are not just born to be viscious, something in their life has caused them to be afraid of certain situations, they then react the only way they know how. So lets deal with the fear by giving them something else to fear????? Doesn't make any sense to me. They appropriate way to handle that is to show them there is nothing to be afraid of, and give them another oulet to use.


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Jun 16 2008, 09:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=592226


> Leslie,
> We are only one full week (or is it now two?) past Midis' 5-day training session so I am having regular 5-10 minute sessions with him using the collar and leash myself at home still. I don't plan on having to use it much longer, but Midis would not pay any attention to me at all prior to this. I am amazed at the improvement in him. Although 5-days of training is not very long I chose to use the tools and methods myself to see if I could control him rather than keeping on with the $ for the trainer. If not, then it will be worth the extra money, but so far so good.
> 
> I'm glad you got Izzy in shape! It's really frustrating to have a loving, lovely little dog that is stubborn and set on doing what he/she wants to do when he/she wants to do it, and to heck with the humans' opinion. I don't believe I"ve ever had a dog as stubborn or headstrong as Midis, regardless of size!
> ...


My BF laughs and says she's just like her mommy!!! :brownbag: I've always been stubborn. 

Just a quick clarification for the person that said 'any trainer that needs to use a prong collar on 9 lb dog needs more training. '

My trainer didn't need the prong collar - Izzy listened to her perfectly from the instant they met. It was a different story with me though, I guess she didn't take me seriously. :blush: 

Leslie 

Don't tewl mommy I sed dis, but I stiw don take hew sewiously. I jus wet her fink I do. :smtease: - Izzy


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Jun 14 2008, 08:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591261


> QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 14 2008, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591168





> I previously posted This Article that does an excellent job explaining why I do not recommend people following Cesar Milan's advice.
> 
> Here is a short piece written by a veterinary behaviorist from Purdue University. This vet previewed episodes of the show before National Geographic began airing it and advised against airing it. Dr. Luescher
> 
> So, what should you be watching? Well, I finally had a chance to view multiple episodes of "Its Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. I can now personally say four paws up! Victoria Stillwell does a wonderful job of addressing the cause of the dog's behavior and using positive methods to resolve the situation, not just band aid it.[/B]


I also, and my Personal Trainer for Midis, did not agree with the Cesar Milan's type of training. My trainer used the timing, consistency and motivation as the primary tools for training. Agree or disagree, you have 1.3 seconds to respond to your dog's action. Any longer and they may have no clue what behavior/command you are rewarding or correcting. I was not comfortable at first with "training collar" which basically has prongs that poke into the neck, if/when you correct him/her. They are not sharp, they are blunt and I have only elicited a yelp once (early on) when Midis did not respond to a gentle pull to stop his bad behavior. Granted, I was not at first comfortable with this collar and told the trainer so. But he worked Midis with a regular leather collar, then the training collar turned inside out (no spokes turned to touch his neck) and then with the training collar turned the right way, into the neck. I watched him do all of this for about an hour in my home so I was comfortable that he knew what he was doing and was not hurting my dog. I have never once made Midis show distress, fear or pain, but by God he sure is paying attention and obeying commands! Of course, he does it for the treats. And you can just see in his eyes how much he wants to please you.

I'll probably get some "OMIDOGS!" over this training collar thing, but I just have to say you can't argue with what works and especially when it is not causing pain or discomfort. It is only uncomfortable when you give the leash a sharp pull. But, we have no more out of control barking and he will obey several commands now and seemingly LOVES the training sessions.

Cyndi
[/B][/QUOTE]

Just curious, what kind of "bad behavior" did Midis do, that you feel its ok that you elicited him to yelp?


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

I did not feel that it was okay to elicit a yelp! I said "early on" when I first used the collar it happened. For heaven's sake he didn't scream out in pain; he yelped as surprised and I eased up on the leash because my intent was not to cause pain or injury but to let him know this was bad behavior. Nothing is perfect first run out of the gate. It takes a little practice.

I swear, no matter what you say on this forum you get slammed. God forbid you admit an error in your ways! Wham! "...what did Midis do, that made you feel it was okay that you elecited (sp) him to yelp?" Puhleeze. 

To each his own, but I'm finished discussing the various training methods. There are as many different opinions about training as .. well, you know whats. Sorry I ever mentioned the trainer in the first place. Truly.

Cyndi


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (jazak @ Jun 24 2008, 10:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=595944


> QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 24 2008, 09:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=595928





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 14 2008, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=591168





> I previously posted This Article that does an excellent job explaining why I do not recommend people following Cesar Milan's advice.
> 
> Here is a short piece written by a veterinary behaviorist from Purdue University. This vet previewed episodes of the show before National Geographic began airing it and advised against airing it. Dr. Luescher
> 
> So, what should you be watching? Well, I finally had a chance to view multiple episodes of "Its Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. I can now personally say four paws up! Victoria Stillwell does a wonderful job of addressing the cause of the dog's behavior and using positive methods to resolve the situation, not just band aid it.[/B]




I don't think there's anything wrong with Cesar's methods. I like him actually. He's not hurting the dogs, and they actually learn from it. Everyone has their own way of doing things, it's ok as long as the dogs are trained and are stable. His home pack of dogs are actually stable and extremely well trained. I like that he tries to teach people that dogs are dogs, not children. Dog behavior and psychology does not become human because we take them home. They're still dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I would NEVER under any circumstances use any of Cesar's methods on my dogs. There are more effective ways to handle behavioral issues that do not put the animal under so much stress. I DO realize that my dogs are not kids, but that being said, positive reinforcement is, in my opinion, the best method for training, whether it be children or dogs!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]



Isnt that why it's so great that we make the best personal choice for us? If you disagree with his methods you shouldnt use them. Everyone will make their own decision as to how to train their children and their dogs!!!!!!!!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 24 2008, 10:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596263


> Isnt that why it's so great that we make the best personal choice for us? If you disagree with his methods you shouldnt use them. Everyone will make their own decision as to how to train their children and their dogs!!!!!!!![/B]



Again, I have no problem with utilizing different methods. I said myself in this thread that a properly used prong collar is a safe tool and will not cause damage to a dog's throat. I've used them myself. 

The problem is with unknowingly advocating methods that could cause harm to the dog or owner. Methods that Cesar uses are known to increase aggressive and fearful behavior. This is not one person's opinion, but verified by published studies of animal behavior that have been peer reviewed. Some of his methods also place the owner/handler at an increased risk of being bitten. This is why I cannot recommend people follow his suggestions and why I actually prefer people NOT take his advice. 

Alpha theory/dominance theory has been known for a number of years now to be faulty and based on flawed observations of man-made captive wolf packs. It is NOT an accurate model for the dog-human family. 

My point is make an educated choice. Find out why a method appears to work in the brief time its on TV, what the dog's body language during the session means, and what the long-term efficacy of that "solution" is. If you haven't done that, you're running blind and possibly dangerously.


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## k9Cracker (Feb 22, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 24 2008, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596091


> I have no problem with utilizing a variety of safe methods. The bottom line is Cesar's methods are NOT safe and can aggravate the situation.
> 
> For example, you have a dog who growls at passing people. Cesar's solution is to put a choke or pinch collar on the dog and correct it for growling every time a person passes. If you look at the dog's body language, its anxiety is increasing. The dog stops growling. What most commonly happens is that the dog's growling is extinguished so when threatened closely, it goes straight to the biting since warning signs (growling, posturing) are not permitted. Correcting the dog did not teach the dog that passing people are okay...it taught the dog that people passing means bad things happen.
> 
> ...


He isn't using a negative reinforcement, he is distracting them. He doesn't wait till they are growling to step in, he understands them so much better than that. He is letting them know that they aren't allowed to give their attention to that. He demands their attention and respect. He re-directs their energy. He isn't hurting them. He matches their intesity. If a dog, maltese included, was trying to bite my face off I would have no problem using a little force to get my point across. You don't need the same force for every dog, you adjust for the size of the dog. 

The warning on the show is to stop people that don't know what they are doing--people that don't understand what he is doing, like people that wrote that article. Your scenario could become true if the wrong person tried it. They WOULD confuse the dog, and having the wrong timing and a false or incomplete understanding of everything that he does will get you hurt.


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## k9Cracker (Feb 22, 2006)

QUOTE (jazak @ Jun 24 2008, 06:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596093


> :goodpost:
> 
> I think it is like a time bomb waiting to explode!!! The dog will learn to fear you and for some time it will work, but one day that fear can snap and turn on you! That anxiety and fear just build up and up until the dog can no longer control it. It is NEVER okay to use fear or intimidation tactics on any animal. That only teaches them what not to do. They need to learn to deal with the issues that bring on that behavior. I reallize that some are extreme cases, but MOST of that is brought on by fear. Puppies are not just born to be viscious, something in their life has caused them to be afraid of certain situations, they then react the only way they know how. So lets deal with the fear by giving them something else to fear????? Doesn't make any sense to me. They appropriate way to handle that is to show them there is nothing to be afraid of, and give them another oulet to use.[/B]



This is what I don't understand. His dogs are not afraid of him or anything else! They don't run when they see him, they are happy, stable dogs.

The fact that puppies aren't born with problems is exactly the issue. How can the owners that created the behavior possibly think that they are experienced enough to correct it? That is when Cesears training method goes wrong...when the wrong people pretend to know what they are doing. 

Either way, I still think he is fabulous and I still think you need a variety in training methods for a most effective outcome.


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 24 2008, 10:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596284


> QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 24 2008, 10:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596263





> Isnt that why it's so great that we make the best personal choice for us? If you disagree with his methods you shouldnt use them. Everyone will make their own decision as to how to train their children and their dogs!!!!!!!![/B]



Again, I have no problem with utilizing different methods. I said myself in this thread that a properly used prong collar is a safe tool and will not cause damage to a dog's throat. I've used them myself. 

The problem is with unknowingly advocating methods that could cause harm to the dog or owner. Methods that Cesar uses are known to increase aggressive and fearful behavior. This is not one person's opinion, but verified by published studies of animal behavior that have been peer reviewed. Some of his methods also place the owner/handler at an increased risk of being bitten. This is why I cannot recommend people follow his suggestions and why I actually prefer people NOT take his advice. 

Alpha theory/dominance theory has been known for a number of years now to be faulty and based on flawed observations of man-made captive wolf packs. It is NOT an accurate model for the dog-human family. 

My point is make an educated choice. Find out why a method appears to work in the brief time its on TV, what the dog's body language during the session means, and what the long-term efficacy of that "solution" is. If you haven't done that, you're running blind and possibly dangerously.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Again,

"Isnt that why it's so great that we make the best personal choice for us? If you disagree with his methods you shouldnt use them. Everyone will make their own decision as to how to train their children and their dogs!!!!!!!!"

With all due respect if someone doesnt agree with your comment does not mean they're uneducated about either of the methods. It simply means they've made a choice that works for them and their particular pet.


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## jacksonsmomma (Aug 23, 2007)

Jackson and I were at a doggy park a few months ago - and across the way we saw a few doggy parents having a disagreement/argument with some other doggy parents in the big dog area. The little doggy parents were upset with a fellow for supposedly kicking his dog. They informed him to stop treating his dog that way and if he could not he should definitely "discipline" his dog away from children who might see his behavior as ok and repeat it sometime down the line... The parent in question said rather loudly and confrontational "Don't you ever watch Cesar??!! OBviously not - mind your business ..." followed by a few other choice words. I couldn't believe that someone was using someone's name as permission to treat a dog in that manner. I don't watch The Dog Whisperer - but I'm pretty sure that his methods don't include kicking an animal. At least I would hope it wouldn't. What I was offended about was how people can use someone's training methods to validate and okay some pretty horrendous treatment. It made me realize that often times sound advice can be misinterpreted and misdirected and as a result turned into something that is not even close to what was originally suggested. Could this be the case in some training methods? 

The other thing I wanted to mention - Jackson is now 1 years old. I haven't been a part of this forum for a long time - several months... and in that time Jackson and I have had quite a journey. I have tried lots of different training methods with Jackson... I interviewed a guy from Bark Busters - and then later decided against it when I realized that they throw things near the dog to "startle" him into not barking - running out the door - etc. etc. I didn't think that I could throw something at Jackson - and having issues with tempers in my family anyways - I did not want to use any method that might be abused. That's just my choice. I had a trainer who came to the house to do in house training for Jackson - who believed in "gentle" training - but the very first thing she did was to close the door on Jackson's nose to "startle" him to not go near it. I didn't ask her back. It didn't sit well with me. I would rather tug at the leash to correct Jackson when coming to the door - ask him to wait (which he now does) - step forward while stating "forward" giving him permission to go forward. It's taken a while - but I feel better about the method. For some people the door bopping your "kid" on the nose would be fine and I would never look down on someone for thinking that it was. The trainer told me she didn't hurt Jackson by doing it - he didn't yelp and did not show any signs of discomfort. To prove he wasn't harmed even further - months later he was jotting out of the door - having forgotten about the "bop" on his nose completely! FOR ME I just was not comfortable training him in this way. I'm a softy - but I also am aware of my "short fuse" - and I don't need to do anything physical with Jackson that could escalate into me hurting him with out realizing what I was doing. That's just my limits. 

I think training your dog is about as sensitive a subject as disciplining children. Some people are quite okay with spanking - while others feel that it's just not the thing to do - and hey ... in the end what matters to me is that I know as much information about all the methods available so that I can make the most informed decision possible. There is - or shouldn't be - no blame/judgment in that.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Television is heavily edited and scripted. There is no way they would ever show any of Caesar's "failures." If they did the show would probably be canceled. I've read his book, and frankly I was not impressed. I've read many others in the same genre and his was the one I liked the least. 

Of course everyone has the right to choose which training method they'd like to use with their Malts. I've personally seen wonderful results using animal behaviorist Patricia Mc Connell's methods. And I've seen the negative results with friends who used Caesar's methods, and some of the dog's "issues" didn't happen right away. I personally would never use his methods, especially with a toy breed. I'm not a dog trainer. I came to this conclusion from personal experience.


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Jun 24 2008, 06:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596198


> I did not feel that it was okay to elicit a yelp! I said "early on" when I first used the collar it happened. For heaven's sake he didn't scream out in pain; he yelped as surprised and I eased up on the leash because my intent was not to cause pain or injury but to let him know this was bad behavior. Nothing is perfect first run out of the gate. It takes a little practice.
> 
> I swear, no matter what you say on this forum you get slammed. God forbid you admit an error in your ways! Wham! "...what did Midis do, that made you feel it was okay that you elecited (sp) him to yelp?" Puhleeze.
> 
> ...


First off, I disagree with you about the slamming on this forum. I don't read every thread, but I read a lot of them and I don't see that much slamming for the most part. Second I just asked you a question and really am still curious about this "bad behavior" you are referring too. Also, you wrote "but to let him know this was bad behavior." How do you get that point across to him?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

There's some very interesting and articulate, "anti and pro Cesar" comments on this link:



The dog trainer's trainer


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (k9Cracker @ Jun 25 2008, 01:52 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596327


> He isn't using a negative reinforcement, he is distracting them. He doesn't wait till they are growling to step in, he understands them so much better than that. He is letting them know that they aren't allowed to give their attention to that. He demands their attention and respect. He re-directs their energy. He isn't hurting them. He matches their intesity. If a dog, maltese included, was trying to bite my face off I would have no problem using a little force to get my point across. You don't need the same force for every dog, you adjust for the size of the dog.
> 
> The warning on the show is to stop people that don't know what they are doing--people that don't understand what he is doing, like people that wrote that article. Your scenario could become true if the wrong person tried it. They WOULD confuse the dog, and having the wrong timing and a false or incomplete understanding of everything that he does will get you hurt.[/B]



Once again, before you advocate something, understand what you are talking about. 

Negative reinforcement means removing something to cause a behavior to increase in frequency. This is also known as harrassment training. The dog does the behavior (ie sits) to get a correction to stop (ie pressure on a leash). You're right, he's not using that. He's not using any reinforcement at all. 

Positive reinforcement means adding something to increase the frequency of a behavior. This can be a treat, verbal praise, a game of tug, etc. 

Negative punishment means removing something to decrease the frequency of a behavior. An example of this is a time out. The game is discontinued to decrease a behavior's occurance. Using the "uh oh" and ignore for puppy biting is an example of this. 

Positive punishment means adding something to decreased the frequency of a behavior. This is what we classically think of as a correction (verbal, leash, physical). The have the wanted effect, the correction must have three factors:
1. It is immediate to the behavior
2. It is strong enough that the dog views it as a correction
3. It is immediately followed by an opportunity to perform the correct behavior and be rewarded for it. 

BUT when you perform a correction with only the first two factors, the dog does not know what is right. And if you watch the dog's body language, they are not relaxed in the presence of the stimulus. They have not learned that the stimulus is not scary. They have only learned to suppress signs of their anxiety (growling). So, do you want your dog to still be scared or would you rather solve the problem of the dog's anxiety? 

IMO, if you have to muzzle a dog to work with it, you've got a problem.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Won't let me edit that post. 

I meant to say he's not using any reinforcement in that situation. 

I'm not arguing that some of Cesar's methods are not helpful. I'm arguing that without being educated about what parts of his methods are safe and sound, it is not a safe thing to utilize them.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 25 2008, 03:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596579


> I'm not arguing that some of Cesar's methods are not helpful. I'm arguing that without being educated about what parts of his methods are safe and sound, it is not a safe thing to utilize them.[/B]


Yep, I was a "Cesar" fan. I did use a few of his "rules". They seem to have worked well, but only short term.

I gave up the "quick fix", and went back to my old ways.

My way takes a bit more time, but well worth it.

Just for the record, I had a foster, whom we were getting so close, rip my face off. Yep, my upper eyebrow,
upper and bottom lip, my nose, and my chin. This was a result of "another" Cesar fan, who was looking for
quick results. 

This set us back a few weeks. In the end, all worked out. 

I've had soooo many dogs, come, go, and stay. I do not give treats when they are good, as I would have a 
pack of "good" dogs wanting a treat. 

All of mine will do anything for a pat on the head, and to hear, "Good Doggie" :wub: 

I still suck at potty training, but what the heck


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 25 2008, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596577


> QUOTE (k9Cracker @ Jun 25 2008, 01:52 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596327





> He isn't using a negative reinforcement, he is distracting them. He doesn't wait till they are growling to step in, he understands them so much better than that. He is letting them know that they aren't allowed to give their attention to that. He demands their attention and respect. He re-directs their energy. He isn't hurting them. He matches their intesity. If a dog, maltese included, was trying to bite my face off I would have no problem using a little force to get my point across. You don't need the same force for every dog, you adjust for the size of the dog.
> 
> The warning on the show is to stop people that don't know what they are doing--people that don't understand what he is doing, like people that wrote that article. Your scenario could become true if the wrong person tried it. They WOULD confuse the dog, and having the wrong timing and a false or incomplete understanding of everything that he does will get you hurt.[/B]



Once again, before you advocate something, understand what you are talking about. 

Negative reinforcement means removing something to cause a behavior to increase in frequency. This is also known as harrassment training. The dog does the behavior (ie sits) to get a correction to stop (ie pressure on a leash). You're right, he's not using that. He's not using any reinforcement at all. 

Positive reinforcement means adding something to increase the frequency of a behavior. This can be a treat, verbal praise, a game of tug, etc. 

Negative punishment means removing something to decrease the frequency of a behavior. An example of this is a time out. The game is discontinued to decrease a behavior's occurance. Using the "uh oh" and ignore for puppy biting is an example of this. 

Positive punishment means adding something to decreased the frequency of a behavior. This is what we classically think of as a correction (verbal, leash, physical). The have the wanted effect, the correction must have three factors:
1. It is immediate to the behavior
2. It is strong enough that the dog views it as a correction
3. It is immediately followed by an opportunity to perform the correct behavior and be rewarded for it. 

BUT when you perform a correction with only the first two factors, the dog does not know what is right. And if you watch the dog's body language, they are not relaxed in the presence of the stimulus. They have not learned that the stimulus is not scary. They have only learned to suppress signs of their anxiety (growling). So, do you want your dog to still be scared or would you rather solve the problem of the dog's anxiety? 

IMO, if you have to muzzle a dog to work with it, you've got a problem.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hopefully all the experts who know enough to make recommendations to all of us ignorant ones can write a book and enlighten us all. Obviously we don't know the first thing about dogs. When can we look for your official "How-To" book filled with fail-proof empirical data? Or which channel should we tune in to? I'm certainly not a know it all, so I hope someone will soon enlighten us on the only right way to train a dog.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 25 2008, 08:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596766


> Hopefully all the experts who know enough to make recommendations to all of us ignorant ones can write a book and enlighten us all. Obviously we don't know the first thing about dogs. When can we look for your official "How-To" book filled with fail-proof empirical data? Or which channel should we tune in to? I'm certainly not a know it all, so I hope someone will soon enlighten us on the only right way to train a dog.[/B]


*This thread can be an enlightening and interesting discussion if everyone will please be respectful of each other. Sarcasm is not necessary.

Thanks.
Sher
Forum Administrator Team
*


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

nonsak ~ Think about it. Jacki *is *a trainer. 

Just because you put something in writing, on TV, or on a Billboard, doesn't make it fact.

Do you believe what this broker put on her website?:::quote

The Maltese is a lucky breed of dog that has no genetic, nor congenital health problems, so generally the costs to keep your puppy healthy are few.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 25 2008, 08:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596766


> QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 25 2008, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596577





> QUOTE (k9Cracker @ Jun 25 2008, 01:52 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596327





> He isn't using a negative reinforcement, he is distracting them. He doesn't wait till they are growling to step in, he understands them so much better than that. He is letting them know that they aren't allowed to give their attention to that. He demands their attention and respect. He re-directs their energy. He isn't hurting them. He matches their intesity. If a dog, maltese included, was trying to bite my face off I would have no problem using a little force to get my point across. You don't need the same force for every dog, you adjust for the size of the dog.
> 
> The warning on the show is to stop people that don't know what they are doing--people that don't understand what he is doing, like people that wrote that article. Your scenario could become true if the wrong person tried it. They WOULD confuse the dog, and having the wrong timing and a false or incomplete understanding of everything that he does will get you hurt.[/B]



Once again, before you advocate something, understand what you are talking about. 

Negative reinforcement means removing something to cause a behavior to increase in frequency. This is also known as harrassment training. The dog does the behavior (ie sits) to get a correction to stop (ie pressure on a leash). You're right, he's not using that. He's not using any reinforcement at all. 

Positive reinforcement means adding something to increase the frequency of a behavior. This can be a treat, verbal praise, a game of tug, etc. 

Negative punishment means removing something to decrease the frequency of a behavior. An example of this is a time out. The game is discontinued to decrease a behavior's occurance. Using the "uh oh" and ignore for puppy biting is an example of this. 

Positive punishment means adding something to decreased the frequency of a behavior. This is what we classically think of as a correction (verbal, leash, physical). The have the wanted effect, the correction must have three factors:
1. It is immediate to the behavior
2. It is strong enough that the dog views it as a correction
3. It is immediately followed by an opportunity to perform the correct behavior and be rewarded for it. 

BUT when you perform a correction with only the first two factors, the dog does not know what is right. And if you watch the dog's body language, they are not relaxed in the presence of the stimulus. They have not learned that the stimulus is not scary. They have only learned to suppress signs of their anxiety (growling). So, do you want your dog to still be scared or would you rather solve the problem of the dog's anxiety? 

IMO, if you have to muzzle a dog to work with it, you've got a problem.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hopefully all the experts who know enough to make recommendations to all of us ignorant ones can write a book and enlighten us all. Obviously we don't know the first thing about dogs. When can we look for your official "How-To" book filled with fail-proof empirical data? Or which channel should we tune in to? I'm certainly not a know it all, so I hope someone will soon enlighten us on the only right way to train a dog.
[/B][/QUOTE]



Actually I DO wish some of the top behaviorists, trainers, breeders, vets, and "Cesar and Cesar wanna bes" would collaborate and produce a video, TV program, book or something to assist us in training our puppies and dogs. 

I feel like I'm taking fragmented bits of information and training from all of these experts to train Karli and Sadie in the way I think would work for each dog. 

I will make an aside comment - In the past ten years or so I've gone through obedience training with three dogs and I've been very impressed with how the training has evolved just in ten years. The trainers have gotten really creative with ways to make the training/learning more positive and even fun for the dogs.

Also, there's all kinds of books out there on dog body language and how dogs communicate. I'm reading a book right now which gives advice on how to deepen the relationship with your dog(s). There's more and more being written to help us better understand, better communicate with, and have an optimal relationship with our dogs. All this is a GOOD Thing. 







Joy


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 25 2008, 08:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596787


> QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 25 2008, 08:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596766





> Hopefully all the experts who know enough to make recommendations to all of us ignorant ones can write a book and enlighten us all. Obviously we don't know the first thing about dogs. When can we look for your official "How-To" book filled with fail-proof empirical data? Or which channel should we tune in to? I'm certainly not a know it all, so I hope someone will soon enlighten us on the only right way to train a dog.[/B]


*This thread can be an enlightening and interesting discussion if everyone will please be respectful of each other. Sarcasm is not necessary.

Thanks.
Sher
Forum Administrator Team
*
[/B][/QUOTE]


It actually wasnt sarcasm. Truly, anyone that knows the only right way should write a book, and show us the data they collected to come to their conclusion.


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jun 25 2008, 08:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596790


> nonsak ~ Think about it. Jacki *is *a trainer.
> 
> Just because you put something in writing, on TV, or on a Billboard, doesn't make it fact.
> 
> ...




Again, my point is...don't push your opinions on others. If you don't agree, don't do it. If you do, have at it. It's your decision. If you can make a point that is backed by fail-proof data, that shows that something is truly harmful to a dog, then yes, everyone should know about it, it should be law. Otherwise, everything else is just a matter of opinion where, many will agree with either side, as they have every right to do.


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## jazak (Feb 12, 2008)

QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 26 2008, 11:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596998


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jun 25 2008, 08:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596790





> nonsak ~ Think about it. Jacki *is *a trainer.
> 
> Just because you put something in writing, on TV, or on a Billboard, doesn't make it fact.
> 
> ...




Again, my point is...don't push your opinions on others. If you don't agree, don't do it. If you do, have at it. It's your decision. If you can make a point that is backed by fail-proof data, that shows that something is truly harmful to a dog, then yes, everyone should know about it, it should be law. Otherwise, everything else is just a matter of opinion where, many will agree with either side, as they have every right to do.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The whole point of this forum is to share opinions and experience with others!!! No one is trying to force anyone to do anything. JMM is just trying to provide information for those that are interested. There is no "fail-proof" data on subject matter of behavior. Whether it be human or animal. 

Cesar's methods may very well be successful for many, but that doesn't mean that there won't be negative consequences for many. I personally would rather not take the risk that my pet would be the one with those consequences.

I am greatful for the information/personal opinions of this thread. I had not been aware of Cesar Millan or his methods before this thread. I now have had the opportunity to do some research and watch some of his videos and can now make an educated decision on what I believe is the best thing for my family and pets. Thank you JMM for your insight on this matter.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I think everyones opinions are important :biggrin: Also nemo learned so many voice commands I never needed a book or a show on TV.
I feel with a little time and patience they learn it all.
And by the way Cesar scares me  I think he is a little "OFF" :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :brownbag: Sorry


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## Teddyandme (Feb 6, 2005)

QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 26 2008, 12:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596998


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jun 25 2008, 08:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596790





> nonsak ~ Think about it. Jacki *is *a trainer.
> 
> Just because you put something in writing, on TV, or on a Billboard, doesn't make it fact.
> 
> ...




Again, my point is...don't push your opinions on others. If you don't agree, don't do it. If you do, have at it. It's your decision. If you can make a point that is backed by fail-proof data, that shows that something is truly harmful to a dog, then yes, everyone should know about it, it should be law. Otherwise, everything else is just a matter of opinion where, many will agree with either side, as they have every right to do.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Nonsak,

I know that you are new here so you don't know who people are yet...let me just say that JMM is a dog trainer, and 3maltmom has opened her home to more fluffbuts than I can count as a rescue mom...she does know more than I ever will because she has seen so many come into and out of her home. she has had true headcase dogs that she has turned around into adoptable pets....so I guess I am saying sometimes you just have to know a little background on the people who are doing the talking in order to know they may know a thing or two.


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## preciouspups (Apr 13, 2008)

:goodpost:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

If anyone is truly interested in researching animal learning theory, PM me and I can guide you to some excellent courses and continuing education opportunities (most CE seminars are not terribly pricey, especially if you just audit). You do not have to be an animal professional to take part. All interested people are welcome. You can even step outside the box a little and start with agility seminars...many agility instructors utilize learning theory and you can see it in practice (I think its neat to see dog's learning). 

Before I advocate a method of training to somebody, I want to be sure it has a sound background. So, for instance, I hear something online. I'll ask the original poster for references or suggested reading. I'll do my research and be sure it is sound before recommending something I, personally, have not experienced/utilized. You will see most of my advice stems from a body of knowledge from applied animal behaviorists, research scientists with advanced degrees in psychology. These are scientists publishing studies in peer reviewed journals (just as you would see a medical team publishing on a new medical treatment). Many of these scientists go on to publish books for dog training/behavior professionals and John Q. Public based on their studies. 

I like the idea of somebody like Cesar who can capture an audience...and I wish I could advocate his methods. Since I don't, I think it is important to show people why I don't so they can also critically examine what they are watching, do some research, and see what they think. 

I don't gain anything from disagreeing with Cesar. I'm not out there looking for clients or publishing books to compete with his. My interest is in the animal's well-being, safety, and happiness.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 27 2008, 04:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597275


> If anyone is truly interested in researching animal learning theory, PM me and I can guide you to some excellent courses and continuing education opportunities (most CE seminars are not terribly pricey, especially if you just audit). You do not have to be an animal professional to take part. All interested people are welcome. You can even step outside the box a little and start with agility seminars...many agility instructors utilize learning theory and you can see it in practice (I think its neat to see dog's learning).
> 
> Before I advocate a method of training to somebody, I want to be sure it has a sound background. So, for instance, I hear something online. I'll ask the original poster for references or suggested reading. I'll do my research and be sure it is sound before recommending something I, personally, have not experienced/utilized. You will see most of my advice stems from a body of knowledge from applied animal behaviorists, research scientists with advanced degrees in psychology. These are scientists publishing studies in peer reviewed journals (just as you would see a medical team publishing on a new medical treatment). Many of these scientists go on to publish books for dog training/behavior professionals and John Q. Public based on their studies.
> 
> ...






:goodpost: I might just look into some continuing ed on animal behavior/animal learning theory someday. The subject fascinates me. Patricia McConnell's books have been enlightening.


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (jazak @ Jun 26 2008, 11:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597002


> QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 26 2008, 11:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596998





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jun 25 2008, 08:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596790





> nonsak ~ Think about it. Jacki *is *a trainer.
> 
> Just because you put something in writing, on TV, or on a Billboard, doesn't make it fact.
> 
> ...




Again, my point is...don't push your opinions on others. If you don't agree, don't do it. If you do, have at it. It's your decision. If you can make a point that is backed by fail-proof data, that shows that something is truly harmful to a dog, then yes, everyone should know about it, it should be law. Otherwise, everything else is just a matter of opinion where, many will agree with either side, as they have every right to do.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The whole point of this forum is to share opinions and experience with others!!! No one is trying to force anyone to do anything. JMM is just trying to provide information for those that are interested. There is no "fail-proof" data on subject matter of behavior. Whether it be human or animal. 

Cesar's methods may very well be successful for many, but that doesn't mean that there won't be negative consequences for many. I personally would rather not take the risk that my pet would be the one with those consequences.

I am greatful for the information/personal opinions of this thread. I had not been aware of Cesar Millan or his methods before this thread. I now have had the opportunity to do some research and watch some of his videos and can now make an educated decision on what I believe is the best thing for my family and pets. Thank you JMM for your insight on this matter.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Thank you...that's exactly what i've been saying. There's more than one way to do something...thanks for reinforcing that


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## nonsak (Apr 7, 2008)

QUOTE (Teddyandme @ Jun 26 2008, 09:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597148


> QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 26 2008, 12:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596998





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jun 25 2008, 08:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=596790





> nonsak ~ Think about it. Jacki *is *a trainer.
> 
> Just because you put something in writing, on TV, or on a Billboard, doesn't make it fact.
> 
> ...




Again, my point is...don't push your opinions on others. If you don't agree, don't do it. If you do, have at it. It's your decision. If you can make a point that is backed by fail-proof data, that shows that something is truly harmful to a dog, then yes, everyone should know about it, it should be law. Otherwise, everything else is just a matter of opinion where, many will agree with either side, as they have every right to do.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Nonsak,

I know that you are new here so you don't know who people are yet...let me just say that JMM is a dog trainer, and 3maltmom has opened her home to more fluffbuts than I can count as a rescue mom...she does know more than I ever will because she has seen so many come into and out of her home. she has had true headcase dogs that she has turned around into adoptable pets....so I guess I am saying sometimes you just have to know a little background on the people who are doing the talking in order to know they may know a thing or two.
[/B][/QUOTE]


How do you know i'm not a dog trainer? Cesar's a dog trainer as well....and i'm sure there are tons more. It doesnt really matter to me, honestly who here is a dog trainer. I don't know JMM, that's correct. I haven't refuted any of this person's methods. I don't know them. I am, however, supporting those who chose to go another way. It's ok, yes?


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 27 2008, 06:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597372


> How do you know i'm not a dog trainer? Cesar's a dog trainer as well....and i'm sure there are tons more. It doesnt really matter to me, honestly who here is a dog trainer. I don't know JMM, that's correct. I haven't refuted any of this person's methods. I don't know them. I am, however, supporting those who chose to go another way. It's ok, yes?[/B]


I think it is! I also think I personally will not use any *one person's* methods, and that Cesar is amazing the way he can read a dog. I realize, so let's not go backward on this discussion, that Cesar's show is a SHOW, so obviously we can't see what happens after the show or the edits (although he does do followups, etc. on some). I personally saw several flat statements here about Cesar's show that made me feel like the persons making the statements were watching a different Cesar show than I watch. Things described as his methods are not from the show I watch. Especially about his dogs acting out of fear. I've never seen such a large pack of very large once red-zone dogs so relaxed! The other thing that bothered me about a lot of statements and theory here was comparing the type of cases Cesar deals with, with ordinary puppy basic training. duh---of course you wouldn't use training methods on a puppy or a small dog that you may have to use on a violent killer.

I've watched Cesar for a very long time and subscribe to his news letter, but that does not mean that he is my training guru. I did consult him about Frosty when he became senile and occasionally vicious, and believe me when I say he would not use force of any kind in that situation. I simply watch because I find his show entertaining and can sometimes take something good away and love seeing the different dogs. He is on TV to sell books, videos and his services and get people to his seminars---and to showcase himself. Not to train our little furbutts. Don't try to take that from his shows. You can see a lot of the same things you read in the popular training books today. That same mind set about dogs as mannerly members of the family. Like the "nothing in life is free" attitude for dogs. He doesn't use treats, he doesn't need them. His body language and relaxed manner works for him. Guess that's why he calls himself a dog "whisperer". There is a lot more to him then holding a violent dog down when he needs to. Also his ability and methods in getting his point across to the people involved has improved over the years. Any trainer worth their salt is going to evolve. The last couple of years he has always stressed "I train people, not dogs."

My point about Cesar---criticize him all you want, but don't criticize him for something he isn't, be honest about your criticism.


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## cloey70 (Jan 6, 2008)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Jun 28 2008, 06:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597708


> QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 27 2008, 06:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597372





> How do you know i'm not a dog trainer? Cesar's a dog trainer as well....and i'm sure there are tons more. It doesnt really matter to me, honestly who here is a dog trainer. I don't know JMM, that's correct. I haven't refuted any of this person's methods. I don't know them. I am, however, supporting those who chose to go another way. It's ok, yes?[/B]


I think it is! I also think I personally will not use any *one person's* methods, and that Cesar is amazing the way he can read a dog. I realize, so let's not go backward on this discussion, that Cesar's show is a SHOW, so obviously we can't see what happens after the show or the edits (although he does do followups, etc. on some). I personally saw several flat statements here about Cesar's show that made me feel like the persons making the statements were watching a different Cesar show than I watch. Things described as his methods are not from the show I watch. Especially about his dogs acting out of fear. I've never seen such a large pack of very large once red-zone dogs so relaxed! The other thing that bothered me about a lot of statements and theory here was comparing the type of cases Cesar deals with, with ordinary puppy basic training. duh---of course you wouldn't use training methods on a puppy or a small dog that you may have to use on a violent killer.

I've watched Cesar for a very long time and subscribe to his news letter, but that does not mean that he is my training guru. I did consult him about Frosty when he became senile and occasionally vicious, and believe me when I say he would not use force of any kind in that situation. I simply watch because I find his show entertaining and can sometimes take something good away and love seeing the different dogs. He is on TV to sell books, videos and his services and get people to his seminars---and to showcase himself. Not to train our little furbutts. Don't try to take that from his shows. You can see a lot of the same things you read in the popular training books today. That same mind set about dogs as mannerly members of the family. Like the "nothing in life is free" attitude for dogs. He doesn't use treats, he doesn't need them. His body language and relaxed manner works for him. Guess that's why he calls himself a dog "whisperer". There is a lot more to him then holding a violent dog down when he needs to. Also his ability and methods in getting his point across to the people involved has improved over the years. Any trainer worth their salt is going to evolve. The last couple of years he has always stressed "I train people, not dogs."

My point about Cesar---criticize him all you want, but don't criticize him for something he isn't, be honest about your criticism.
[/B][/QUOTE]

:ThankYou: I coldn't say it better myself. He trains people not dogs, and that is how I see his show too. I LOVE CEASAR!


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## jaceybaby (Sep 16, 2008)

QUOTE (cloey70 @ Jun 28 2008, 08:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597780


> QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Jun 28 2008, 06:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597708





> QUOTE (nonsak @ Jun 27 2008, 06:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597372





> How do you know i'm not a dog trainer? Cesar's a dog trainer as well....and i'm sure there are tons more. It doesnt really matter to me, honestly who here is a dog trainer. I don't know JMM, that's correct. I haven't refuted any of this person's methods. I don't know them. I am, however, supporting those who chose to go another way. It's ok, yes?[/B]


I think it is! I also think I personally will not use any *one person's* methods, and that Cesar is amazing the way he can read a dog. I realize, so let's not go backward on this discussion, that Cesar's show is a SHOW, so obviously we can't see what happens after the show or the edits (although he does do followups, etc. on some). I personally saw several flat statements here about Cesar's show that made me feel like the persons making the statements were watching a different Cesar show than I watch. Things described as his methods are not from the show I watch. Especially about his dogs acting out of fear. I've never seen such a large pack of very large once red-zone dogs so relaxed! The other thing that bothered me about a lot of statements and theory here was comparing the type of cases Cesar deals with, with ordinary puppy basic training. duh---of course you wouldn't use training methods on a puppy or a small dog that you may have to use on a violent killer.

I've watched Cesar for a very long time and subscribe to his news letter, but that does not mean that he is my training guru. I did consult him about Frosty when he became senile and occasionally vicious, and believe me when I say he would not use force of any kind in that situation. I simply watch because I find his show entertaining and can sometimes take something good away and love seeing the different dogs. He is on TV to sell books, videos and his services and get people to his seminars---and to showcase himself. Not to train our little furbutts. Don't try to take that from his shows. You can see a lot of the same things you read in the popular training books today. That same mind set about dogs as mannerly members of the family. Like the "nothing in life is free" attitude for dogs. He doesn't use treats, he doesn't need them. His body language and relaxed manner works for him. Guess that's why he calls himself a dog "whisperer". There is a lot more to him then holding a violent dog down when he needs to. Also his ability and methods in getting his point across to the people involved has improved over the years. Any trainer worth their salt is going to evolve. The last couple of years he has always stressed "I train people, not dogs."

My point about Cesar---criticize him all you want, but don't criticize him for something he isn't, be honest about your criticism.
[/B][/QUOTE]

:ThankYou: I coldn't say it better myself. He trains people not dogs, and that is how I see his show too. I LOVE CEASAR!
[/B][/QUOTE]
:goodpost: YAY! I LOVE CESAR AS WELL!


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