# Lines and Pedigrees?



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm not sure this is the right place to post this but I have some questions about Maltese lines and pedigrees. What kinds of lines should one be looking for when looking at a pedigree? What is the difference between a "good pedigree" and a "bad" pedigree?


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I can only speak for myself April and a lot is based on personal taste. I prefer a lot of the old UK lines/look---but then maybe I just know them a bit better than the US ones having lived abroad for so long---the classic look. I prefer that there are lots of proven (champion dogs) on both Sire/Dams sides going back for several generations.
I think it is good to get to know breeders and see the character of the dogs---for me that is essential---as much as looks.
One thing I am still trying to decide is whether or not good breeding or good handling is more important---I know they both are, but it is often the case that a good handler can overcome some of the less positive traits when they know HOW to show.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

In a way I think that being able to determine the pedigree is about as complicated as knowing how to breed for the best results. What I looked for was minimal line breeding, no close line breeding or in-breeding, much out-crossing to good lines. I can trace MiMi's pedigree back six generations and everyone is a champion up to Franz's mom, but Franz was a champion (for sure!). Some of the sire's from other lines can be traced back four to six more generations. We see several dogs who were truly outstanding.

Now, since the real purpose of showing is to determine if a dog is to the standard and should be bred, I don't quite understand why some people breed dogs they have not finished.

I suppose that some people who are more knowledgeable will give you better answers based on fact, but this is the _opinion_ of someone just like you.:innocent: The proud mama of a Josymir pet.

Have you researched Rose and Lily's pedigrees? It is so much fun. I have pictures that I found on line of about 30 of MiMi's ancestors.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Sassy has several of the old lines in her pedigree. One is know for her line having great coats, another is known for pigment, etc. This was important to my breeder as she was building her line. Most people consider a good pedigree to have mostly "all" champion dogs in the lines. However, with that being said.........I think any dog can be finished if they are shown enough. Breeders have also been known to build in points to make sure certain of their dogs gets the points needed to finish. It can be complicated. I think it mostly boils down to one being comfortable with their own breeder's ethics. JMO


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

sassy's mommy said:


> Sassy has several of the old lines in her pedigree. One is know for her line having great coats, another is known for pigment, etc. This was important to my breeder as she was building her line. Most people consider a good pedigree to have mostly "all" champion dogs in the lines. However, with that being said.........I think any dog can be finished if they are shown enough. Breeders have also been known to build in points to make sure certain of their dogs gets the points needed to finish. It can be complicated. I think it mostly boils down to one being comfortable with their own breeder's ethics. JMO


I agree with being comfortable with your own breeder's ethics...as I am. I understand that MiMi's breeder wants strong boned, as opposed to delicate dogs. MiMi is 7 1/2 pounds, but doesn't look big. I don't know, it is simply a fascinating subject to me. A very complicated subject as well. I don't agree that ANY dog could be finished...but I admit I don't know. But if champion lines can produce an oversized dog, is it not also likely that a dog who is ...well say undersized but from good lines...cannot still contribute excellent off-spring?

This is a fascinating subject to me. I do have some opinions, but all subject to re-evaluation.

I want to learn more....me and April both.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Hi dear April, a bad pedigree is what my dear Leo and Mia have . But I still feel so blessed with them. Same as my Flakey (RIP), Tina Marie (RIP) and Kara (RIP). 

Now I'm not much into pedigrees so much. It confuses the heck out of me. But Ana's is beautiful. But what is more important, at least to me, is bless her, she is so healthy, my vet just looses her breath over her (literally), not only my her looks but how healthy she is, and she along with all the vet staff have said over and over, you can tell how well bred she was.

Ana never had the Maltese bunny hop LOL. The young lady struts. When I take her for walks, she literally takes my breath away. It's like she is in the show ring. It blows me away. This is not a brag, by no means, I had nothing to do, with how well Ana was so well bred, I owe it all to her breeder. As well as her tempermant, her socialization, all of it. I owe it all to her breeder. Yes, both of Ana's parents are Champions, and have incredible lines, but more importantly, she is so healthy (thank God), her tempermant is incredible, and you can just see how well bred she is.

I love my Mia and Leo immensley, more than I can ever express, and I am so proud of them, for how well they accepting Ana, how good they are to her, and Ana to them.

To be honest, I'm not really all that interested in pedigrees, I guess I should be, but as I said, Ana does have a beautiful one, but most importantly, I LOVE how my breeder, loves her babies, breeds her babies, raises her babies, and loves her adult dogs as well and ensures to her utmost ability to produce healthy, true to standard, outstanding tempermant, off spring. Seriously, Ana takes both my husband and my breath away as well as my vets, not only for her looks, becuase of course to a great vet that is secondary, but her health and her tempermant, blows my vet away. She did say however, that Ana is ridicously adorable . 

I think Carina mentioned that Ana is somehow related to her babies, but not sure how.

In any case, trying to answer your question, I think most importantly, find a reputable breeder, and you will not only find a healthy, well adjusted puppy, but also a very very good pedigree.

You know what makes me relax the most, is not Ana's looks, although I die everytime I look at her, not how she struts, althought I do die every time, but sooooo much do I have peace of heart, in her health, and in her loving breeder. I just couldn't be anymore blessed. I can not tell you how grateful I am.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

allheart said:


> Hi dear April, a bad pedigree is what my dear Leo and Mia have . But I still feel so blessed with them. Same as my Flakey (RIP), Tina Marie (RIP) and Kara (RIP).
> 
> Now I'm not much into pedigrees so much. It confuses the heck out of me. But Ana's is beautiful. But what is more important, at least to me, is bless her, she is so healthy, my vet just looses her breath over her (literally), not only my her looks but how healthy she is, and she along with all the vet staff have said over and over, you can tell how well bred she was.
> 
> ...


 Oh Sweetheart, we all love Ana. I wish with all my heart I could see her prance across the room. I wish that I could meet her in person. But your pictures and descriptions bring me joy...almost as if I could pick up the wee one and kiss her pretty little nose.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Sylie said:


> Oh Sweetheart, we all love Ana. I wish with all my heart I could see her prance across the room. I wish that I could meet her in person. But your pictures and descriptions bring me joy...almost as if I could pick up the wee one and kiss her pretty little nose.


 
Oh dear Sylvia, how I just adore you. No, I really do. Let's agree on this, Mimmi is so gorgeous. honest to heaven, just like you said, she takes your breath away with her beauty. And I know you fell in love with her the moment you frist held her :wub:, is that not the best feeling in the world. You don't have to bite your tongue anymore :HistericalSmiley:, but honest to my heart, Mimmi was adorable as a puppy, a true heart stealer, and grew up to be one of the prettiest Malts I may have ever seen, God love her.

Oh how I wish we could meet. And it's so funny how you mentioned Ana's nose, because that's what I love most and kiss most on her, that wittle nose, it kills me.

Okay, we will let you off the hook of biting your tongue, because having to do it, must really hurt :w00t:, but honest to anything, her pic as a pup, is a true heart stealer. 

Sylivia, you are so funny, and that is one of the reasons I adore you. :wub:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your comments.. I am just trying to learn more abut how to evaluate pedigrees just for kicks and giggles.:HistericalSmiley: It's fun to go to the Maltese Data Base and look at pedigrees. I am not familiar with any lines and it would seem to be able to evaluate a pedigree, knowing at least some of the lines would be important. I know the names of a few lines like Villa Malta, Marcris, Ta-jon, Chrisman. There are so many lines I have never heard of, though. Does anyone know how one can learn about some of the lines?


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

allheart said:


> Oh dear Sylvia, how I just adore you. No, I really do. Let's agree on this, Mimmi is so gorgeous. honest to heaven, just like you said, she takes your breath away with her beauty. And I know you fell in love with her the moment you frist held her :wub:, is that not the best feeling in the world. You don't have to bite your tongue anymore :HistericalSmiley:, but honest to my heart, Mimmi was adorable as a puppy, a true heart stealer, and grew up to be one of the prettiest Malts I may have ever seen, God love her.
> 
> Oh how I wish we could meet. And it's so funny how you mentioned Ana's nose, because that's what I love most and kiss most on her, that wittle nose, it kills me.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I have tears rolling down my face. I asked DH to read this, because I was so moved...and so proud. Thank you for your very kind words. When I go to sleep tonight, I will enfold myself in your kind and loving words and I will have sweet dreams....Sweet dreams to you tonight my dear friend.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

aprilb said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments.. I am just trying to learn more abut how to evaluate pedigrees just for kicks and giggles.:HistericalSmiley: It's fun to go to the Maltese Data Base and look at pedigrees. I am not familiar with any lines and it would seem to be able to evaluate a pedigree, knowing at least some of the lines would be important. I know the names of a few lines like Villa Malta, Marcris, Ta-jon, Chrisman. There are so many lines I have never heard of, though. Does anyone know how one can learn about some of the lines?


That's a great question April, now that would interest me. Amazing the background of these babies :wub:


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

aprilb said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments.. I am just trying to learn more abut how to evaluate pedigrees just for kicks and giggles.:HistericalSmiley: It's fun to go to the Maltese Data Base and look at pedigrees. I am not familiar with any lines and it would seem to be able to evaluate a pedigree, knowing at least some of the lines would be important. I know the names of a few lines like Villa Malta, Marcris, Ta-jon, Chrisman. There are so many lines I have never heard of, though. Does anyone know how one can learn about some of the lines?


You already have some very fine lines to look at. Just keep digging. Marcris and Chrisman have pedigrees that go way way back. Ta-jon is highly honored, but less available to research. You can PM me with any particulars...as I said I have many pictures and our kids are cousins. Some sweet person once gave me a link to pedigrees, but I have lost it. I'll see if I can find it again. If I do, I'll let you know.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

April -- as a breeder, I like a close line-breed with little to no outcrosses. I'm usually doing a granddaughter to grandsire or great-grandsire breeding. One of my best litters was very close -- Uncle to Niece (the daughter of the sire's littermate sister) and she was doubled up as she was a product of a granddaughter/grandsire breeding. I was once told by a very old time Lhasa breeder that if you want to "prove" your line (is consistent) you would bred a sire to daughter. I have never tried this and don't encourage it, but I do see what she was saying.

In general, you want to see the same dogs on each side of the pedigree -- but not necessary in the same places -- maybe 1-3 generations back. That is thought of as consistent breeding. With this type of breeding you will normally know approximately what you will get. 

When bringing in an outcross, you're doing so to try to correct or enhance a particular feature. When you bring in an outcross -- you are taking a chance. You are hoping that it will correct or enhance whatever you're trying to correct or enhance. It sometimes doesn't -- and often it takes more than one generation for the enhancement or correction to become solid.

For example, if you're trying to correct a bad front in your line, you might take your female with the least bad of your fronts to a male from another line (outcross) that has a fabulous front, is from a line that consistently produces fabulous fronts and has always produced fabulous front. You might get puppies from this litter with great fronts or hopefully at least better front. Using one of the puppies from this litter in your breeding program will give you better fronts next time, but may not give you good fronts on all the puppies, but several generations down the road, you may be consistently producing good fronts.

On the other hand, I have tried outcrosses that helped with the problem I was concentrating on, but brought in too many other problems for me to continue using any of the puppies in my breeding program.

When a breeder is starting out and trying to establish his/her own "look", they usually start with an outcross. It takes generations to be able to consistantly produce good line-breeding.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Sylie said:


> You already have some very fine lines to look at. Just keep digging. Marcris and Chrisman have pedigrees that go way way back. Ta-jon is highly honored, but less available to research. You can PM me with any particulars...as I said I have many pictures and our kids are cousins. Some sweet person once gave me a link to pedigrees, but I have lost it. I'll see if I can find it again. If I do, I'll let you know.


Here a couple of good Maltese pedigree databases:

MDB search

Maltese Pedigree Archive


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Champions are important to a pedigree as it says they adhere closely the the standard and have been judged by several judges that agree. I have to disagree
that any dog can be finished if shown enough. That's not so unless it's a crooked
win(s). Put up your dukes, Pat! lol
The one thing pedigrees do not tell you is any hidden health issues. This is where a
reputable breeder comes into the picture. Hopefully they take the time to eliminate
any KNOWN problems/illnesses just as they would a bad coat, gait, bite, or head.
THe only way you can get to know the lines is by talking with other breeders about those lines (and the dogs inparticular) and what their strong points are in the breeding program. There are also some books out there that touch on different lines. Yorkies seem to have more info on old lines than Malts do when it comes to documentation in books.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Cosy said:


> Champions are important to a pedigree as it says they adhere closely the the standard and have been judged by several judges that agree. I have to disagree
> that any dog can be finished if shown enough. That's not so unless it's a crooked
> win(s). Put up your dukes, Pat! lol
> The one thing pedigrees do not tell you is any hidden health issues. *This is where a*
> ...


 
BINGO Brit. I think that all sums it up. To me, oh my gosh, defintely high up on the list to look for or somehow know (what I put in bold).

Reputable/caring breeders I think, want nice clean health lines. 

That's why I called Fran, after every ever vet visit for Ana (her first one, and then for her shots). As soon as I got home, just to let her know, all is good :thumbsup: and yes to thank her, but also to keep her aware and give her all the feedback that my vet told me. Of course I was :chili:, but also, to let her know, Ana is a healthy girl from head to toe. I will do the same after she is spayed and home. 

By the same token if anything serious crops up, it's important to let your breeder know that as well. Not to complain, but to keep them informed, even though they a good caring reputable breeder, already truly knows extensively the lines and the health of the lines.

Communication with your breeder is so important, I think it truly helps them.
My vet LOVES my breeder, without even knowing her. Bless Fran, she always says "Oh Christine, you are making me blush" :wub:, but I think it's important to relay things to your breeder, just to reassure what they already know and also to keep them informed.

So yes, pedigrees are nice, to see all the CH's, but I think Brit summed it up best.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Thank you so much, ladies!:wub: :SM Rocks!: I'm glad I started this thread. I've learned a lot! My goodness, good breeding is really HARD!
It is humbling for me to see how much work it takes. :faint:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

aprilb said:


> Thank you so much, ladies!:wub: :SM Rocks!: I'm glad I started this thread. I've learned a lot! My goodness, good breeding is really HARD!
> It is humbling for me to see how much work it takes. :faint:


Oh April, that is sooooooooooooooooo true. It boggles my mind how much work goes into good breeding, the breeding part, then the birthing part, then the raising of the pups, holy heavens, and having so much knowledge, it truly does boggle my mind.

I think these wonderful breeders, just have an extreme passion for the breed, and I honestly think it's a special "calling". I sure didn't get the call LOL. But in conversations I have had, just all that it takes, I am beyond amazed, and yet, it's a passion to these wonderful breeders, bless them.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

April, I apologize for getting off subject in your thread last night.

I googled all the kennel names on MiMi's pedigree and visited their web sites. There were several dogs names that I googled and came up with info as well.

Rhapsody has an amazing web-site with info that goes way back. You see Rhapsody dogs all over the world. Tonia Holibaugh is also a well known handler. 

Just for fun and info....... Rhapsody Maltese and Professional Handling

I wasn't able to go back farther than Franz's parents, but could go back farther in Missy's pedigree. Who is Rose & Lily's mother, again?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

allheart said:


> BINGO Brit. I think that all sums it up. To me, oh my gosh, defintely high up on the list to look for or somehow know (what I put in bold).
> 
> Reputable/caring breeders I think, want nice clean health lines.
> 
> ...


Sometimes health issues aren't discovered until farther down the line. No reputable breeder should be disqualified if they didn't know about the hereditary problem but does take action to clean it from their breeding program.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Cosy said:


> Sometimes health issues aren't discovered until farther down the line. No reputable breeder should be disqualified if they didn't know about the hereditary problem but does take action to clean it from their breeding program.


 
Brit that is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo true. I agree with you completely. And I think the only way a breeder will know, is if the pet owner lets them know, and you are so right, they shouldn't be disqualifed, it's sometimes "unknown" until much further down the line and depending on how large the breedering program is, your right, it can take a good bit, to target, and remove from the line. I couldn't agree more.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Cosy said:


> I have to disagree that any dog can be finished if shown enough. That's not so unless it's a crooked win(s). Put up your dukes, Pat! lol


Brit, we all in the maltese world know of breeders who take their dogs to little small town shows where theie dog is the ONLY Maltese present and of course their Maltese wins. Then when they need major points they add a few of their even lesser quality Malts into the ring and, waaaa-laaaa...their better dog wins with "x" number of points. It is called building in points. This was the kind of thing I was referring to.....we have all seen dogs that are not what we would consider "quality" malts, but they have been finished. 

As far as putting up my dukes.....I am too old, and over the bologna to fight over opinions. LOL!

****I guess I should add, I too believe that Champions are necessary for a nice pedigree. I think one should see "red" when viewing a pedigree of a dog he/she is considering purchasing.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Sylie said:


> April, I apologize for getting off subject in your thread last night.
> 
> I googled all the kennel names on MiMi's pedigree and visited their web sites. There were several dogs names that I googled and came up with info as well.
> 
> ...


Lily-Josymir's Can U Name It, Rose-Desi. I haven't been able to find any info on Rose's mother. I have Lily's pedigree somewhere but I can't find it.:smilie_tischkante: Lily is a full sister to Josy's "Gigi". She is the one that had the 4 little boys not long ago.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Sorry April, I came up empty handed. I can't find anything on Can U Name It and Franz only goes back one generation. GiGi isn't on Josy's site and I can"t find anything about her either. Since Franz was MiMi's great-great grandfather, I can see Josy's lines from him and go farther back with some of the out-crossings with Marcris, Rhapsody and Divine. Missy's father was a Chrisman stud and those records can be traced way back. Josy hasn't been breeding for so very long. Wasn't Franz her first baby?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Sylie said:


> Sorry April, I came up empty handed. I can't find anything on Can U Name It and Franz only goes back one generation. GiGi isn't on Josy's site and I can"t find anything about her either. Since Franz was MiMi's great-great grandfather, I can see Josy's lines from him and go farther back with some of the out-crossings with Marcris, Rhapsody and Divine. Missy's father was a Chrisman stud and those records can be traced way back. Josy hasn't been breeding for so very long. Wasn't Franz her first baby?


Josymir's Little French Girl aka "Gigi" is in the Maltese Archive database (did you see the links I gave you on page 2?), but her pedigree isn't there.

Franz is from the wonderful old Villa Malta lines. You're right, Franz was her first champion and foundation stud. He produced many champions. He is also Bailey's sire.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Marj, I did go to the links you gave (thanks) but I didn't find anything farther back than Franz parents. Now I remember GiGi's name. I am guessing that Josy isn't showing her, or that she is waiting. Franz has made some very beautiful dogs for sure. Page and Turner are real beauties. Bailey, Rose and Lily are gorgeous too.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Good breeders really needs to have a lot of knowledge about various lines. You can't just go back 3-4 generations as AKC pedigrees do but good breeders go as far back as they can possibly find about each of the dogs in their breeding program. They talk to everyone about old time lines and dogs. They learn about where specific health issues have cropped up as well as confirmation problems. They learn when 2 lines don't mesh well together, etc. etc. It isn't something that can be learned overnight but takes years of studying and breeding to truly learn.

But I do find studying pedigrees to be extremely interesting. Genetics are fasinating, imho.


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Genetics are fasinatining, imho.


I agree. I find it fasinating too. Not only in dogs, but humans too. Actually I started reading and researching about genetics recently (in humans) for some reason. sure is interesting.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Katkoota said:


> I agree. I find it fasinating too. Not only in dogs, but humans too. Actually I started reading and researching about genetics recently (in humans) for some reason. sure is interesting.


I know this is a bit off-topic, but speaking as a mother, it is amazing to me how different each child can be and still come from the same parents!:HistericalSmiley:


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## Shellymcg (Jan 12, 2012)

Looking seriously at a chrisman pup. What do you think of this line?


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I don't know how I missed getting in on this discussion as it is one of my favorite obsessions lately. But I am here to wade in on my thoughts even though several knowledgeable individuals have already posted some great replies. 

I have become a huge fan of Klaus' database. He has even begun a forum over there that he has asked me to moderate probably because he sees how obsessed I am with following his data. I look for his (sometimes) weekly updates and read through them as soon as he gets them up. 

One thing I am doing is trying to see as many old videos of dogs in the pedigrees as I can, and if I can't see videos then I at least want pictures and descriptions from people who have known those dogs. While visiting with Deb in SC we watched old Nationals videos together and it was fascinating to put the videos to the names I have come to know so well through the study of different pedigrees. 



aprilb said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments.. I am just trying to learn more abut how to evaluate pedigrees just for kicks and giggles.:HistericalSmiley: It's fun to go to the Maltese Data Base and look at pedigrees. I am not familiar with any lines and it would seem to be able to evaluate a pedigree, knowing at least some of the lines would be important. I know the names of a few lines like Villa Malta, Marcris, Ta-jon, Chrisman. There are so many lines I have never heard of, though. Does anyone know how one can learn about some of the lines?


One way to learn about the lines is to buy some of the books like Nick Cutillo's book, or Anna Katherine Nicholas. I have both on my shelf. They both were written a long time ago (1980s), but give excellent descriptions of different older lines. I read and re-read these books to learn more about what the breeders who came a generation before were working to achieve. 

I wish there were a similar book with more updated histories of the current Maltese kennels today. A friend of mine mentioned wanting to write one, but I don't know if anyone will find the time. 



Cosy said:


> Champions are important to a pedigree as it says they adhere closely the the standard and have been judged by several judges that agree. I have to disagree
> that any dog can be finished if shown enough. That's not so unless it's a crooked
> win(s). Put up your dukes, Pat! lol
> The one thing pedigrees do not tell you is any hidden health issues. This is where a
> ...


The other thing that I think can be useful to look at if you want to know how closely your dogs relatives adhere to the standard is titles such as ROM and ROMX. ROM stands for Register of Merritt and it means that a males has produced at least 5 Champion off-spring, for females the requirement is 3. Seeing a few ROM dogs shows that the breeder is consistently producing quality. The ROMX title means that the sire or dam has produced a Best In Show winning dog. There are a lot of politics getting to BIS, but you can't get there without a quality dog IMHO. So looking for CH is great, but looking for those ROM/ROMX titles tell you something more about the consistency of producers in the line. My Cacia's dam is now eligable for her ROM with Cacia's finish and her sire will have his eligibility when her half-sister gets her last major. My Cadie's pedigree has a number of ROMX dogs, so she has a few BIS winning dogs in her family tree. 



aprilb said:


> Thank you so much, ladies!:wub: :SM Rocks!: I'm glad I started this thread. I've learned a lot! My goodness, good breeding is really HARD!
> It is humbling for me to see how much work it takes. :faint:


The more I learn, the more I have come to admire the folks who have been dedicated to this for so long. 



Cosy said:


> Sometimes health issues aren't discovered until farther down the line. No reputable breeder should be disqualified if they didn't know about the hereditary problem but does take action to clean it from their breeding program.


Many old time breeders say that it isn't "if" you will have a health issue crop up, but "when." I have come to so admire those breeders who have faced the challenges head on and educated themselves and others about Maltese Health. 

In both human and canine genetics, we have a lot to learn and pedigree/ family history analysis is a tool, but an imperfect one. 



sassy's mommy said:


> Brit, we all in the maltese world know of breeders who take their dogs to little small town shows where theie dog is the ONLY Maltese present and of course their Maltese wins. Then when they need major points they add a few of their even lesser quality Malts into the ring and, waaaa-laaaa...their better dog wins with "x" number of points. It is called building in points. This was the kind of thing I was referring to.....we have all seen dogs that are not what we would consider "quality" malts, but they have been finished.
> 
> As far as putting up my dukes.....I am too old, and over the bologna to fight over opinions. LOL!
> 
> ****I guess I should add, I too believe that Champions are necessary for a nice pedigree. I think one should see "red" when viewing a pedigree of a dog he/she is considering purchasing.


There are certainly many people who finish dogs based on playing games, on luck and on other shenanigans. However, I would caution people to not misunderstand the term building points. It is VERY hard to find significant numbers when showing dogs. In showing my dogs I have found that I spend thousands on entries where no other dogs are entered or not enough dogs are entered for their to be major points. Many times in a breed like ours (and in other less often shown breeds) people do work together to build points. I see nothing wrong with building points if the dogs are quality and truly should be shown. The problem comes in when someone takes dogs of lesser quality out of their kennel to build something just to finish one, knowing the kennel dog is unworthy of being shown in the ring. Judges sometimes withhold ribbons when they recognize this and so they should.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

aprilb said:


> I know this is a bit off-topic, but speaking as a mother, it is amazing to me how different each child can be and still come from the same parents!:HistericalSmiley:


This is SO true. It can be really helpful to know what a littermate looks like, or what another relative looks like, but genetics are funny things. 

Watching a video from nationals a couple of weeks ago, I saw a dog I recognized from my study of pedigrees. This dog is now a grandsire to several dogs overseas. His full sibling stayed here in the states and has produced beautifully. I knew what his full sibling looked like, and moved like. I was shocked to see how unbalanced the dog's movement was in the video. It was like night and day. So while, studying relatives can give us ideas of what different dogs "might" be like. Genetics is still full of lots surprises and questions.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Carina, you are extremely enlightening and knowledgable and I can tell you LOVE this subject. Would you kindly list the title's of these two books where you mentioned the authors above. I am thinking they would make good gifts if they are still published?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Those aren't reputable breeders though, Pat. 



sassy's mommy said:


> Brit, we all in the maltese world know of breeders who take their dogs to little small town shows where theie dog is the ONLY Maltese present and of course their Maltese wins. Then when they need major points they add a few of their even lesser quality Malts into the ring and, waaaa-laaaa...their better dog wins with "x" number of points. It is called building in points. This was the kind of thing I was referring to.....we have all seen dogs that are not what we would consider "quality" malts, but they have been finished.
> 
> As far as putting up my dukes.....I am too old, and over the bologna to fight over opinions. LOL!
> 
> ****I guess I should add, I too believe that Champions are necessary for a nice pedigree. I think one should see "red" when viewing a pedigree of a dog he/she is considering purchasing.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

CloudClan said:


> I don't know how I missed getting in on this discussion as it is one of my favorite obsessions lately. But I am here to wade in on my thoughts even though several knowledgeable individuals have already posted some great replies.
> 
> I have become a huge fan of Klaus' database. He has even begun a forum over there that he has asked me to moderate probably because he sees how obsessed I am with following his data. I look for his (sometimes) weekly updates and read through them as soon as he gets them up.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Carina! That was excellent!

I have The Complete Maltese, but didn't realize there was another one on Maltese history. I'm going to try to track a copy down.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

The videos from the last two nationals just became available at a 50% discount. If anyone is interested they are at this website: ShowDogVideoPros Winter Sale 2012
I already have both, but sure wish I could access previous ones. 

The book by Nick Cutillo is by far the best one I have found. As Marj mentioned it is called the "Complete Maltese." I have had my own copy for at least a decade now and it was out of print when I got it, but it can be found with some searching through used books. 

The other one by Anna Katherine Nicholas is called "The Maltese." I believe it has also been out of print for a long time. The publication date was 1984. The kennel history section covering the US is about 75 pages. It does have some nice pictures both black and white and color of some of the well known dogs from that era. 

There is another book I quite like by Vicki Herrieff called the Maltese Today. It was published in 1996 and has chapters devoted to the kennels in the US and in the UK. They are rather short compared to the Nicholas book and the Cuttillo book, but I really like the other sections of that one and it is one I am glad to have on my shelf.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Carina, I had the wonderful privilege of knowing Vicki Herrieff when I lived in the UK & belonged the the UK Kennel Club. She was instrumental in my getting my first special bitch from Carmidanicks Kennel (now in Spain). Vicki was a lovely lady and such a kind person. I have a copy of her book in my stuff in the US! I think I may have that one by Nick Cuttilo also. I need to go look when I am in the US next! I have forgotten so much stuff w/my brain. You are a true wealth of information!


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

CloudClan said:


> There are certainly many people who finish dogs based on playing games, on luck and on other shenanigans. However, I would caution people to not misunderstand the term building points. It is VERY hard to find significant numbers when showing dogs. In showing my dogs I have found that I spend thousands on entries where no other dogs are entered or not enough dogs are entered for their to be major points. Many times in a breed like ours (and in other less often shown breeds) people do work together to build points. I see nothing wrong with building points if the dogs are quality and truly should be shown. The problem comes in when someone takes dogs of lesser quality out of their kennel to build something just to finish one, knowing the kennel dog is unworthy of being shown in the ring. Judges sometimes withhold ribbons when they recognize this and so they should.


Carina I understand this and you said it nicely. :aktion033:


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Cosy said:


> Those aren't reputable breeders though, Pat.


Brit you are correct, but the sad thing is that many people who are thinking of a new maltese don't know all of this and they think that just because their new pet store puppy has a pedigree that, that makes their new puppy mill pup special. That was what I referred to when I said most any dog can be finished. I didn't say it was a good thing, or that the dog in question was a true representation of the breed. I love seeing a pedigree with quality malts. :wub:


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