# Can we talk about why we cannot choose to be PTS?



## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

This is a subject that really plagues my heart. I hope it is something that other members want to talk about.

When I was a child, I had great-grandparents who I loved so much, perhaps more than my own parents. When I was twelve years old, by best friend on earth, my great-grandmother...fell down the stairs at age 81. They only guessed that she may have had a heart attack, but at that time....early 1960's they had no tests. She died a week later. Up until that time she was perfectly viable. I saw that as the way it goes.

Sometime in the early eighties, my uncle was hospitalized. I went to Florida where he was close to my sister. We prepared a beautiful fruit basket for him, and drove to Orlando to visit. We couldn't find him. There was a man in the room they told us to go to, but he didn't even resemble my uncle. He was sitting there with some kind of brown slush in his mouth, that he could not swallow. We did not recognize our uncle and he did not recognize us. Conversation...about our dogs brought him back for a moment.

He had had several heart attacks and been resuscitated, but not before major brain damage.
Eventually, my younger uncle went to the hospital and signed a do not resuscitate order, to allow him to pass to the next world.

This is very hard for me. I hope you will join in with your experiences. I'll be back later.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

I agree if we choose to go, we should be allowed to go. No one benefits from long drawn out suffering except the medical profession and attorneys. I've watched too many suffer too long without hope of recovery,as a medical professional and as a family member or friend.

Al's cousin Art, had MS and eventually ended up on a ventilator, he cried and begged to be taken off, it gagged him and it hurt him forcing air into his lungs to breathe. He was in so much pain. Finally another doctor was called in and he asked him if he wanted off, meaning he would die... He knodded "yes" and actually wrote yes on a piece of paper for verification that he understood...They took him off...he slowly went to sleep,it's what he wanted, knowing he would have lingered for another couple weeks.
Would anyone want to linger with a 1½ inch tube forced down your throat, forcing your mouth open and you drool constantly, constantly gagging and forced fed with an NG tube?

Al's brother,I watched him whither away to a 70 pound living corpse, I could wrap my forefinger and thumb around his bicep. Eyes sunk back into his head,gel in his eyes to keep them moist and he went blind. In Jeff's case, he didn't want to die, wanted to live by all means,he was afraid to die,considering his past deeds,I would have been too.. Eventually he did die and the worst kind of suffering I'd seen.

If it had been me,I would have wanted to die long before that point...

I got down to 80 pounds on chemo and threw up blood. I went AMA and refused chemo.I wasn't supposed to live more than a month at that rate,so what would stopping chemo hurt? They were going to force me to take it,but luckily they dropped it and let me be. Somehow I started to feel better, slowly began to improve. I believe if they'd forced me,I would have died...

I think Kevorkian had the right idea. More time alive isn't worth it if you suffer so much.
Doctors aren't always right. If we want to live, then fight until the bitter end,if we want to go, let us do so.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

The older you get, the more you see people dying around you. You see them waste away and it is not nice. Sometimes it is horrible. I have seen one of my sister in law going downhill with Alzheimer. My mother asked the staff at the hospital to stop everything on her brother (his wife was afraid to do so). She had to make a real fuss and finally one of the doctors gave the okay. So my uncle could die in peace. My mother took care of her sister in law when she was dying of colon cancer. The hospital discharged her because there was nothing else they could do. One night, mom called the doctor for help (doctors still make housecalls in France) but he did not came. My aunt died in the morning hours. We suppose that he did not come because if he had he would have had to call the ambulance to put her back in the hospital and it would have only prolonged her agony.
My mom spend the last 4 years of her life first in a retirement home, then in a hospital specialized in dementia/alzheimer patients. She cried the all time that she wanted to go home. She did not recognize us anymore. At times when we talked to her and some little bits of lucidity came back, she asked us to please give her something so she could die. At the end my sister had to write a letter to her doctor at the hospital to tell him that we don't want them to do anything to prolong her. He wanted to cover his butt. 
I too agree with Keworkian. He was right. If we want to terminate our life we should have the right to do so. If you are terminally ill, you can go to Switzerland. There is a place where you can commit suicide and die in peace surrounded by your family if you want your family there.
My husband and my daughter know that I don't want any tubes going down my throat or nose. Do not resuscitate, we don't want to live like vegetables. Our Living Will and Power of Attorney has been done by a lawyer. 
My wish is to go to bed one night and not wake up the next morning. That's how my niece went to the other side last April. She was one month short of 60 years old. A shock for us the ones who are left, but the best way to go for her.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Sylvia some people cannot talk about it. I have seen it in our own family. They are afraid to talk about dead and illness. And when it happens, and at some point it will happen, they are at a loss of what to do. Some family members cannot let go because they believe against all odds that their loved one will still recover. They let their loved one suffer because of their selfishness. They take only in consideration how much they are hurting and forget about what their loved one is going through.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I personally have a DNR directive (as does my DH) which I totally believe in, but I do not believe in intentionally taking a life. I believe God is the giver, the sustainer & the receptor of life. If a loved one had a DNR I would see it was enforced (as our precious Sue did for her mom), if not & that person were suffering & there was no hope, I would consciously pray that God would relieve that person of their pain & receive them into eternal life. I don't think we tap into that resource w/a full heart. Both of my parents died very young (my mom was a widow at 49, and died at 51---my dad died suddenly at 56---so I don't have those heart wrenching stories that so many of you do of watching a parent or loved one fade over time. Maybe that situation would cause me to feel otherwise. I don't judge others who have had other experiences, and only speak from my own "personal" journey. I think, looking back now, that I was in a way "blessed" not to have seen my parents age or lose their minds. My DH's parents both died in homes, but had good lives up until they passed---with family to care and without much pain.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

I am 40 years old. I've already had one heart ablation surgery and continue to have heart issues and also very low blood sugar. I also have food allergies so I do not eat out at all. I have lost all 3 of my babies in pregnancy - as I later learned, I was born with a unicornuate uterus (my uterus is like a piece of pasta it never even developed 1/2 way) which is now causing early menopause and complicating my health further. My father (the single parent who raised us and who I completely adored) died at 57 with heart issues. Needless to say, my life is not a day in a rose flower garden. I choose to still enjoy the roses, but I admit sometimes I must search rather hard to see them and not just feel poked by the thorns. 

You don't realize how few people you can relate to (and how few true friends you actually have) in this world until you become the girl who doesn't go out to eat/drink, can't go more than 2 hours without eating and doesn't venture far from medical care facilities (time is of the essence with my heart condition). Frankly, no one really wants to hang out with someone with so many "issues", they don't realize how much 1 hour of shopping with a dear friend to laugh with would mean to someone like me. Instead, they have their own lives and are raising children, eating out going drinking or whatever - doing things "normal" people do I suppose. Anyway, the depression that one goes through under those conditions is a mighty force to push away daily. I choose not to allow myself to stay bummed out for very long. I have value. I am Gods child. I am Bella's Mommy and my DH's wife. I am blessed regardless of my burdens. If I'm still here its because God is still working with me. I believe when I've served my purpose I will get to go "home" - and not a minute sooner. With all that being said, have I ever considered suicide? Absolutely, I am human. During my last hospital admission (a couple of years ago), I was struggling to stay over 100 lbs (I am 5'7") and I was tired, so very, very tired. I looked like death. My body would only tolerate a couple of foods. I am allergic to almost all meds. The hospital staff was so scared. I just asked them calmly to make sure my DNR was on the top of my chart. It scared them even more. We all knew how close I was to slipping into cardiac failure and they weren't ready to lose me. I was ready to go though - I was just so tired and so lonely. I felt like a science project. At the end of it all, I did not take my life, nor did my God take my life. I came out stronger for the experience. I just don't believe we have the right to kill. I believe that right is Gods only. Absurd as it sounds (and completely unlike anything you'll ever hear in the Methodist churches that I attend lol) - I believe we begin with God. I believe we are offered the opportunity to come to this world and that we choose to accept it. I believe we know ahead of time what our journey will be. For that reason, I believe that though I sometimes forget that I chose this journey, I do actually have the ability to endure it and to come out brighter on the other side. I realize this is a crazy concept for some folks, it's just what I believe. I do believe that we have the right not to allow "modern medicine" to keep us here longer than necessary - which is why I have a DNR and advanced medical directives, I just don't believe we are allowed to take human life (this is why I struggle with the death penalty - part of me wants that ... another part believes it is murder as pure as the deeds they committed themselves). I don't begin to have all the answers, I am a work in progress and as I grow, my opinions and prospective changes. Maybe I will one day see thing differently...


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

After seeing my friend Jim die last summer and my mom the year before, I've learned two very important things.

First, make sure your Health Care Power of Attorney is up to date and complete. You can direct the type of life-prolonging actions from this document. Make sure the person who will have that authority is willing to carry out your wishes, as well. I've had one for over 25 years and I'm actually updating it next week because my sister is no longer in the area to carry out my wishes.

Second, if you or a family member are diagnosed with an illness that qualifies, call Hospice sooner rather than later. I've seen too many people wait until the last few days but it is actually there to help far earlier than that. When my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer in January 2011, she was given the option of additional radiation treatments to prolong her life. She asked the doctor how long and was told that 3 - 6 months without treatment, maybe an extra month or two with. My mom said, absolutely not, and they called Hospice the following week. She lived another 3 months and was far more comfortable than if she had chosen further treatments. 

I think what sometimes happens is that we (or our family members) are so desperate for a miracle that we try anything, not thinking about the fact that we are prolonging our own or our loved one's suffering. Personally, I hope I have the courage to do what my mom did and say "I don't want anything more." That way, I can have the end of life services that will help me be comfortable. 

A couple of other things about hospice:If an emergency responder sees the Hospice notice posted in a patient's home, they will contact Hospice instead of working to resuscitate or transport the patient. If they don't see the notice, they have to act. If a patient dies at home under Hospice care, law enforcement doesn't get involved; without Hospice, there has to be an investigation. Finally, with Hospice, all of the treatments designed to prolong life, and in many cases, suffering, stop. The focus becomes comfort. I think this is frankly as close as we will come as a society in terms of allowing ourselves to end the suffering. At least this way, we have a choice, can be comfortable and don't prolong the suffering.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I don't believe in going thru all the measures available in the medical field to sustain life but don't believe in actively ending life either. It''s based on my personal religious belief.
My sister ( she was my best friend as well and I adored her) had uterine cancer many years ago.. she had surgery.. and she agreed to radiation AS LONG AS it didn't disrupt her quality of life. She did well with it and had a good life after for about 20 years. 
Then she got a totally different type.. bladder cancer.
She said she was NOT going to go thru any ' medical-measures'... that she didn't wasn't to go thru any 'frankenstien-stuff' as she called it. Her husband had passed years before from bladder cancer too. BTW.. she was a retired nurse. 

Her wish was to die at home. She did very well for a very long time, using only Advil for pain. I spent evenings/nights and days off with her( friends helped out as well) She could still get around, with a walker at this point. 

Then she had taken a 'turn' and I simply stayed there 24/7. We did call in hospice at this point and got approved. They got morphine started immediately on day of review and assisted me in how to give. My sister wanted the minimum dose as possible. ( She said she wanted to keep her 'wits about her" as long as possible. The actual hospice nurse visit was to start in a couple of days. 
Very early Am of the day she passed my sweet sister asked what time it was and she told me to go to bed and get some rest .. she said you ( "I" ) had a hard night! God love her! 

Though I'm convinced she endured more pain than she let on for some time, she had about 2 weeks bed-ridden but 'decently' comfortable. 

Now .....I will say there are cases where ,say a respirator, can have it's place! Odd statement from someone totally against sustaining life with "machines". For instance my BIL had COPD.. he ran into complications and though he had at one time signed a DNR he apparently recended it. He was not breathing on his own and they put him on the respirator. The family was very upset not knowing he had changed the order. The hospital assured them it was just a temp measure. That after a couple of days they'd take him off to see how he did on his own. Initially he only went an hour or so and had to go back on... but each time they took him off his time extended to where he finally was totally free of the machine and lived a couple years after. In this type case a 'machine' can have some 'value'. 

My personal 'bottom-line': 
This 'route' my sister took is what I would choose. No extrordinary measures... basically just pain management. 
A Dr. once said to me..."Just because we 'can'..... doesn't mean we 'should'! I like his thinking!


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## Cyndilou (Jan 24, 2013)

Yes it is so sad and true that the older we get so does everyone we love. Oct 3rd will be 3 yrs since I lost my father to a very brief battle with cancer. I have always been a total daddy's girl. 
I'm not working now but was a nurse for many many years on the ICU. I have seen more than I would like to remember. Some of the worst are families that just don't want to let go when there is no hope. I have even seen a family wait to stop all life saving means u til just one more check came in the mail. Yep how sad is that? Even though I don't think you can technically keep that check. Not sure. I believe in prayer and I'm sure I have seen some true miracles however there is on my opinion a time to say good bye. Everyone should beable to leave with their dignity and be at peace.


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

When I moved to Orlando, my 87 year old mother and sister who took care of her moved in with me. Mom had a fear of doctors and hospitals. On the wall above her bed, she plaster a the DNR sign and had another one in her walker. She could hardly see, hear and walk, and after two years she decided to stop taking her cumin that helped with her congestive heart (my sister and I were unaware of this). Needless to say she went down hill fast. The doctor slapped her in the hospital and said you no longer get to make your own decisions. This of course made my mother very unhappy because no one told her what to do LOL. After going home, she talked to me and said she just didn't want to live like this. She had a fear of becoming a vegetable for years like her cousin did and us having to take care of her. So we explored her options. We discovered if you are under hospice care, you can reject doctors care and they will make you comfortable. So after a long talk, she asked me what should I do. I told her this was her decision and we would support her decision. Of course some of my siblings were outraged. She quickly decided the hospice route in my home and 3 months later passed away with all 6 of her kids around her. AFter going through this, I discovered hospice is the most wonderful organization and she went in peace and with dignity


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

In 2004 my father was diagnosed with lung cancer. I took him to all of his chemo appt's and radiation at the end. Both my parents had living wills so I didn't have to make the hard decisions. My Dad went to the hospital at the end and spent the last 8 days of his life there. He couldn't eat and we did not let them do a feeding tube. He was at Peace when he passed.
I was finally able to place my Mom into assisted living in 2008. I live 2 hours from Fayetteville so it was really hard for me to care for her and she was showing signs of dementia. She wouldn't move away from my brother who is brain injured, so I found a really nice place in her town.In 2009 she no longer knew me except on occasion. We were in and out of the hospital and late in the year I had to admit her to a nursing home. She was so lost in her head. She had 2 falls where they had to take her to the hospital. I was burning up the highway a lot. She passed the 1st day of Jan. 2010. I had to make a decision not to take her to the hospital and let hospice care for her end. I did not know that hospice could have been onboard before. 
My brother who is brain injured has a living will and also wears a DNR bracelet. 
Ron and I also have living wills, DNR.


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

Maidto2Maltese said:


> I don't believe in going thru all the measures available in the medical field to sustain life but don't believe in actively ending life either. It''s based on my personal religious belief. No extrordinary measures... basically just pain management.
> A Dr. once said to me..."Just because we 'can'..... doesn't mean we 'should'! I like his thinking!





edelweiss said:


> I personally have a DNR directive (as does my DH) which I totally believe in, but I do not believe in intentionally taking a life. I believe God is the giver, the sustainer & the receptor of life..


I didn't read all posts so I might be missing something, but basically, the above quotes are my thoughts about this topic


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Maidto2Maltese said:


> I don't believe in going thru all the measures available in the medical field to sustain life but don't believe in actively ending life either. It''s based on my personal religious belief.
> My sister ( she was my best friend as well and I adored her) had uterine cancer many years ago.. she had surgery.. and she agreed to radiation AS LONG AS it didn't disrupt her quality of life. She did well with it and had a good life after for about 20 years.
> Then she got a totally different type.. bladder cancer.
> She said she was NOT going to go thru any ' medical-measures'... that she didn't wasn't to go thru any 'frankenstien-stuff' as she called it.
> ...





edelweiss said:


> I personally have a DNR directive (as does my DH) which I totally believe in, but I do not believe in intentionally taking a life. I believe God is the giver, the sustainer & the receptor of life.


Like Kat, the above statements pretty much sum up my feelings on this. As I've watched my parents age and deal with day to day pain, the depression that goes along with dealing with day to day pain and not being able to do what they want (or in my dad's case what he wanted to be able to do when he was still here with us), I'm not so sure living to a ripe old age is what I want. But when we get into legalizing human euthanasia, we have crossed a line that is really scary.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you all for some very thoughtful and thought provoking replies.

In my initial post I mentioned my great-grandparents, referring to the fact that fifty years ago, people lived their lives and then got sick and died. Usually, in a short period of time. Today medicine can cure people of some maladies, but for the most part aging people are kept alive by medicine and procedures when we might think that God's plan for them was to have passed on years, even decades earlier. We can argue that humans were created with the capacity to develop practices and techniques to preserve life and should do so. There are religions that will not treat illness with medicine. We might also argue that medical care has evolved to the point of being able to cut short the horrible suffering some must endure, in an easy an painless manner.

Most of us would think it cruel to let our dogs die a long, slow, painful natural death. Instead, we hold them while an injection sends them off to sleep.

I only say that we have the RIGHT to make the choice for ourselves and to have compassionate assistance. I don't know if I would do it or not. I think I might, in order to save my DH the burden and perhaps financial devastation. On matters such as this we never know what we will do, until the time comes.

Do you fear that if assisted suicide were legal, it would eventually lead to a refusal to treat the aging, and then forced euthanasia?

I want to state that I have very mixed emotions on the whole subject, and on some level agree with every post in this thread.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

I dont like death or really talking about it either............... but my mom has said several times how nice it would be to pass peacefully rather than suffer............. I have always wondered why animals are put to sleep and humans are not??? Either way I dont want to play GOD!!!!


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## Cyndilou (Jan 24, 2013)

I would personally advise everyone to discuss this with their family and what their wishes would be if and when the time came. Have a living will have a DNR. 
Everyone should beable to leave this world with their dignity.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

My mother had liver cancer, she was a brave woman, she tried very hard not to burden her family, two weeks before my momma went to be with the Lord my 4 siblings and I moved in with momma and my daddy, it was very hard watching my momma suffer in great pain, I felt so helpless, I would pray and plead with my God to help my momma go be with Jesus, the second week we called hospice, in my eyes they are a Godsend, they helped my mamma with her pain, they helped my siblings and I understand what we needed to do to care for my momma and my precious daddy who was grieving, I remember one night when I was sitting by my mamma's bedside, she was so uncomfortable, I knew she was in a great deal of pain, I actually thought for a second how easy it would be to help her go home, but I knew that God knows the time, he promises he won't give us more then we can take, the Bible tells us that it is God who knows the time to die, assisted suicide is a attempt to deny God his right, we must be careful not to take into our own hands what belongs to God.
I am so thankful for the days I had with my momma.
every one should have a living will, I know hospice had us keep it close by, when my momma went home we called hospice and they contacted the funeral home. I just can't stress enough how important it is to have a living will, it made it so easy for us to do what my momma wanted


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## Maizy Moo's Mum (Jul 4, 2012)

DNR orders are good to have if this is what you want, if a family member is in hospital then I believe it is important to remind that the patient has a DNR order, however I must also add in circumstances outside of hospitals people have a duty to attempt resuscitation regardless of DNR orders one of these instances is at my work. As cabin crew/ flight attendant for my company this is our duty regardless of bracelets/relatives etc it is a legal obligation that we have to fulfil and whilst it might be against there wishes we have to fulfil our role rightly or wrongly.

My FIL had cancer and passed in Jan him all the family agreed that DNR was the right thing and it was signed. I am glad this was done as in the latter stages he was so poorly it just wouldn't have been right as sadly he couldn't be helped.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Al's aunt Cleva had MS, her son Art did too. Cleva was put on life support and miraculously she did wake up. She told Leonard, not to put her back on again, the breathing apparatus hurt her,forcing air into her lungs, she said she could hear what was going on and feel everything and was creaming in her brain for help but no one could hear her...
She lapsed back into a coma the next day and uncle Leonard respected her wishes...
Her son Art,Al's cousin ended up in the same condition 10 years later, Leonard had passed so it was up to his brothers... they couldn't let him go,feeling it was against God's will. Art begged,choking,they had to retrain his hands to keep him from pulling it out. 
Finally another doctor was called in, he let Art make his wishes known in front of several witnesses,even in writing... They pulled the tube, he went to sleep peacefully. He passed out, not gasping for air like we all thought he might...

What would we want? We do it for our most beloved fluffs,it hurts but we do it because we love them so much...Some people think because they don't have souls, it's not a religious thing. To me,they have souls,otherwise how could something so wonderfully caring be empty?
When I die,I'm coming back as one of Al's dogs! If I can't do that,I'll wait for Al with the fluffs... If he goes first, he said he will wait for me where the fluffs are, in doggie heaven.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Oh, DNR doesn't mean they won't try to recussitate you, it just means they might not run as fast when you code and won't pounce on you as vigorously to save you. It doesn't mean they'll stand there and watch you flat line... minimal lifesaving measures will be done.

Having an advance directive or living will is not sufficient to ensure a patient is treated under the DNR protocol, even if it is his wish, as neither an advance directive nor a living will is a legally binding document. It is also the case that the wishes expressed in an advance directive or living will are not binding.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Sylie said:


> Thank you all for some very thoughtful and thought provoking replies.
> 
> In my initial post I mentioned my great-grandparents, referring to the fact that fifty years ago, people lived their lives and then got sick and died. Usually, in a short period of time. Today medicine can cure people of some maladies, but for the most part aging people are kept alive by medicine and procedures when we might think that God's plan for them was to have passed on years, even decades earlier. We can argue that humans were created with the capacity to develop practices and techniques to preserve life and should do so. There are religions that will not treat illness with medicine. We might also argue that medical care has evolved to the point of being able to cut short the horrible suffering some must endure, in an easy an painless manner.
> 
> ...


I don't know either if I would do it or not. But I sure will refuse treatment if there is no cure. I don't want to burden my family, financially or otherwise. 

Since I don't believe in the "God" of religion, I have an other understanding about this. I believe that we came to this world to learn some lessons. Once we have learned them we are free to go "home". We are given some opportunities to leave this world, it's on us to take them or leave them. We have the choice. Refusing treatment is one choice. In order to be able to leave this world, we need an accident or an illness to be able to. Even "your God" is leaving you the choice. If he would want you to stay longer on this Earth, he would not send you an illness or accident that would give you an opportunity to leave. I believe that you choose your parents and your life before coming here.

I don't think that if assisted suicide was legal it would lead to a refusal to treat the aging. It still will be up to the patient to make the final decision and as long as he is not ready the doctor has an obligation to treat him if there is no living will.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Like Kat, the above statements pretty much sum up my feelings on this. As I've watched my parents age and deal with day to day pain, the depression that goes along with dealing with day to day pain and not being able to do what they want (or in my dad's case what he wanted to be able to do when he was still here with us), I'm not so sure living to a ripe old age is what I want. But when we get into legalizing human euthanasia, we have crossed a line that is really scary.


Frankly when it comes to Euthanasia I think that people are mostly scared that family members will take the decision in their own hands to profit financially from the family member dying. But if the decision comes from a mentally sound patient I feel it should be accepted and give him the help he needs. The patients Keworkian helped were all of sound mind and they were the ones asking for assistance. The same is true for Switzerland. The family cannot ask for it. It has to be the patient itself asking for it and he has to go through psychologists to get the okay. Once you are not able to make your own decision, they will not help you.



> A Dr. once said to me..."Just because we 'can'..... doesn't mean we 'should'! I like his thinking!


Terry I like his thinking too !


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Regardless of our culture, all of us will eventually face one fundamental issues. Life is finite. We will not go on (at least in our present form) forever. It is an undeniable fact. Yet in America, we just don't discuss this. I think part of this is because we have moved the act of dying from the home (surrounded by family and loved ones, including pets), to the ICU (in a totally cold and inhospitable room, often with no one but nurses to tend to you). 

Other cultures still participate in the process of dying and have rituals and that are attached to it. This way, families understand death and know what is expected of them, and also understand what will eventually happen to all of us. 

In the U.S. we are left to figure it our for ourselves, often relying on doctors and funeral directors to tell us what to do when we are faced with death. Most people don't know how to cope, and allow hemselves to be lead about by the "experts" too frightened to take charge of the situation themselves.





So, consider this...

80% of Americans do not put their personal affairs in order before they die.
Medicare paid something like 55 BILLION dollars for care given in the last two months of patients lives.
Many doctors view their inability to "cure" a patient as a professional failure. Most are reluctant to sugget palliative care even wen they know there is no hope.
The vast majority of Americans say they would prefer to die at home, but statistics tell us that 80% die in hospitals or nursing homes. 20% of those spend there last days in ICU's attached to life sustaining equipment.
Most people have no idea of how to discuss the reality of death with our loved ones. But by not having these conversations, we deny the opportunity to share our thoughts, feelings and fears with our loved ones. 

Unfortunately I see this all too often (working in healthcare for many many years). I have seen terminally ill patients unable to tell their families what they are feeling, and simply suffer in emotional isolation as a result. 

Families with unrealistic expectations drive way too many ICU days, and the result is a delayed and unnatural death. People talk about "do not resuscitate" orders. I like "Allow Natural Death" better. Death is not frightening. It is like a fire burning out, or a clock that is winding down. Yes, there are terrible things that sometimes take people way before their time, and we should fight that with all there is medically to do. But when the inevitable end is here....allow natural death is where we should all want to be.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

pammy4501 said:


> Regardless of our culture, all of us will eventually face one fundamental issues. Life is finite. We will not go on (at least in our present form) forever. It is an undeniable fact. Yet in America, we just don't discuss this. I think part of this is because we have moved the act of dying from the home (surrounded by family and loved ones, including pets), to the ICU (in a totally cold and inhospitable room, often with no one but nurses to tend to you).
> 
> Other cultures still participate in the process of dying and have rituals and that are attached to it. This way, families understand death and know what is expected of them, and also understand what will eventually happen to all of us.
> 
> ...


I have chills and watering eyes reading this. This is both sensitive and well informed. I have always had a high regard for you, Pammy...but with this it just shot threw the roof.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Janine, I am moved and impressed by your insight. Especially, your thoughts on "your God", giving you the choice. This IS the planet of free choice, as well as the planet of good and evil. Sometimes I think that people ascribe their own choices as "God's will", when, in fact the option is clearly given. I sincerely believe that pneumonia is natures' way to provide an end to suffering, should you choose to take it, or you can fight it, if that is your choice.

Again, this is something I observed with numerous very sick people. They get pneumonia, because they have been bed ridden and fluid builds up in their lungs. Of course, people other than the weak and long time bed ridden do get pneumonia, and of course they should be treated...that is not what I am talking about.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> Regardless of our culture, all of us will eventually face one fundamental issues. Life is finite. We will not go on (at least in our present form) forever. It is an undeniable fact. Yet in America, we just don't discuss this. I think part of this is because we have moved the act of dying from the home (surrounded by family and loved ones, including pets), to the ICU (in a totally cold and inhospitable room, often with no one but nurses to tend to you).
> 
> Other cultures still participate in the process of dying and have rituals and that are attached to it. This way, families understand death and know what is expected of them, and also understand what will eventually happen to all of us.
> 
> ...


:goodpost::thumbsup:


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

pammy4501 said:


> Most people have no idea of how to discuss the reality of death with our loved ones. But by not having these conversations, we deny the opportunity to share our thoughts, feelings and fears with our loved ones.
> 
> Unfortunately I see this all too often (working in healthcare for many many years). I have seen terminally ill patients unable to tell their families what they are feeling, and simply suffer in emotional isolation as a result.
> 
> .


With both my sister and my mom life long nurses and even I working as an aide many years ago... talking of death and dieing with my family was always 'comfortable' for me.
From the time I was a little girl death was at our doorstep. I have a up-close and personal 'relationship' with death from a small child...several times over I'm sad to day. We even held the wakes at home back then... I wasn't frightened of it at all! Of course I had a wonderful group of family and friends that 'guided' me thru the process and 'fear' just wasn't an issue.
I have to say those last months of caring for my sister was a precious gift. Yes, we spoke of the 'reality' of the situation and what she wanted...and there were some 'bad' days.. but not all... and we had MANY days filled with wonderful chats and laughs as well. 
When things 'worsened' one evening she said she wanted to talk of a nursing home. I asked why the sudden change of heart.. she said "this is going to be too hard for you". I told her it was a lousey excuse and we hadn't come that far to change the game plan. I knew she was ONLY thinking of me at that point and not what she really wanted. When I told her.. ' nursing home?..no-way'!! that we were going to see this thru together.. then she smiled and that was the end of that topic.
Yes, of course it was 'hard'.. as much for my own selfish reasons of knowing I was losing her... not the caretaking! As long as I knew her pain could be managed all else I had to do was a non-issue! 
I have not one regret and would do the same a thousand times over. It was an honor to be able to fulfill her wishes.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Sylvia--Maybe it's simply because so many people don't like to think about the end till they are forced to. My Mom was this way and others here have described same (end) stories...sad and painful. I guess it's up the the individuals to prepare as much as possible. Advancements are a double edge sword when there is no quality of life left, but we no longer have a life expendacy of 30 either as in mid evil times.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

We were with Jeff, my brother in law, when he died, he died at home with all of us sitting on couches, chairs makeshift beds,where ever we could,surrounding him.
Good thing we were there, to let him go in love... his girlfriend did beastly awful things after he died. Thankfully he never knew what she had planned, he went in peace and love,that's what counted.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

My mother had a brain tumor. My sister and I both went "home" to care for her until the end. It was hard, but it was beautiful too. ln a way she regressed to childhood and then baby hood. I was so challenged, but I had a spirit guide who held me close and showed me the way. In the end, when my darling mother left the world, we wished her well and a pleasant journey, as if she were embarking on a fabulous cruise. It was the hardest time in my life, but I grew as I never could have done with an easy life. I changed her diapers, as she had done for me...I became the mother and the care giver. I loved my mother all my life, because she was the sweetest person ever. But, in those months that I cared for her, when I became the mother and she the child....I never loved her as much. I am grateful for the experience...and I am grateful that her doctors did not torture her with treatments in her last few months. Instead of drugs we gave her coconut cream pie.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

pammy4501 said:


> Regardless of our culture, all of us will eventually face one fundamental issues. Life is finite. We will not go on (at least in our present form) forever. It is an undeniable fact. Yet in America, we just don't discuss this. I think part of this is because we have moved the act of dying from the home (surrounded by family and loved ones, including pets), to the ICU (in a totally cold and inhospitable room, often with no one but nurses to tend to you).
> 
> Other cultures still participate in the process of dying and have rituals and that are attached to it. This way, families understand death and know what is expected of them, and also understand what will eventually happen to all of us.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost:

I do think death can be frightening if you have no hope, and don't know where you might be going.
I actually look forward to going home, it's hard down here, where I am going will be wonderful, I will be with my Jesus, my race will be done.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Summergirl73 said:


> I am 40 years old. I've already had one heart ablation surgery and continue to have heart issues and also very low blood sugar. I also have food allergies so I do not eat out at all. I have lost all 3 of my babies in pregnancy - as I later learned, I was born with a unicornuate uterus (my uterus is like a piece of pasta it never even developed 1/2 way) which is now causing early menopause and complicating my health further. My father (the single parent who raised us and who I completely adored) died at 57 with heart issues. Needless to say, my life is not a day in a rose flower garden. I choose to still enjoy the roses, but I admit sometimes I must search rather hard to see them and not just feel poked by the thorns.
> 
> You don't realize how few people you can relate to (and how few true friends you actually have) in this world until you become the girl who doesn't go out to eat/drink, can't go more than 2 hours without eating and doesn't venture far from medical care facilities (time is of the essence with my heart condition). Frankly, no one really wants to hang out with someone with so many "issues", they don't realize how much 1 hour of shopping with a dear friend to laugh with would mean to someone like me. Instead, they have their own lives and are raising children, eating out going drinking or whatever - doing things "normal" people do I suppose. Anyway, the depression that one goes through under those conditions is a mighty force to push away daily. I choose not to allow myself to stay bummed out for very long. I have value. I am Gods child. I am Bella's Mommy and my DH's wife. I am blessed regardless of my burdens. If I'm still here its because God is still working with me. I believe when I've served my purpose I will get to go "home" - and not a minute sooner. With all that being said, have I ever considered suicide? Absolutely, I am human. During my last hospital admission (a couple of years ago), I was struggling to stay over 100 lbs (I am 5'7") and I was tired, so very, very tired. I looked like death. My body would only tolerate a couple of foods. I am allergic to almost all meds. The hospital staff was so scared. I just asked them calmly to make sure my DNR was on the top of my chart. It scared them even more. We all knew how close I was to slipping into cardiac failure and they weren't ready to lose me. I was ready to go though - I was just so tired and so lonely. I felt like a science project. At the end of it all, I did not take my life, nor did my God take my life. I came out stronger for the experience. I just don't believe we have the right to kill. I believe that right is Gods only. Absurd as it sounds (and completely unlike anything you'll ever hear in the Methodist churches that I attend lol) - I believe we begin with God. I believe we are offered the opportunity to come to this world and that we choose to accept it. I believe we know ahead of time what our journey will be. For that reason, I believe that though I sometimes forget that I chose this journey, I do actually have the ability to endure it and to come out brighter on the other side. I realize this is a crazy concept for some folks, it's just what I believe. I do believe that we have the right not to allow "modern medicine" to keep us here longer than necessary - which is why I have a DNR and advanced medical directives, I just don't believe we are allowed to take human life (this is why I struggle with the death penalty - part of me wants that ... another part believes it is murder as pure as the deeds they committed themselves). I don't begin to have all the answers, I am a work in progress and as I grow, my opinions and prospective changes. Maybe I will one day see thing differently...


 
wow what a testimonial of your faith in God. I love you, gosh I wish I lived close, I think we would be wonderful friends.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

I haven't had time to sit down and share my thoughts on all of this. However, I do appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and experiences.

To be honest, I don't want to think too much about the negative sides of growing older and death right now. I am working so hard to think positive and avoid becoming depressed. There are older people ... I mean well over 100 years old ... that are still happy and living a happy and productive life ... they are usually out there in the world ... still wanting to work and help others.

I hope to write more later ... but, for now, I would just like to say that I would rather die than end up in a nursing home. And, I never want to become a burden to loved ones in regard to health issues. I need to be as independant as possible. 

If I am afraid to die right now ... it is only because I wish to have everything in place ... I mean every little detail. And, although I do believe Felix would be lost without me ... he would be okay. Snowball is a different story. Snowball needs me right now.

Oh, this is just starting to make me feel down ... so, I have to stop for now. I need to stay positive about life. It's hard sometimes ... but, I can do it ... yes, I can!


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

I hope that by keeping active, exercising as much as your body allows without overdoing it. Keep active, be happy and always learn something new, that we can live a long time. Eat healthy and throw in a little vice like chocolate or wine can't hurt... I hope to keep going a long time, (we'll see after Friday I guess).
Al's grandparents on father's side played music and loved to do crafts,worked in the garden, active and didnt' eat a lot of junk food...had a real "joi de vivre"...they lived well into their 90's.

My parents ate out, ate junk food, not at all active ,watched a lot of TV, and really started going down hill by 60...they didn't have hobbies, we generally not happy people.. I truly believe depression kills, it sure hurts physically...

I should have been dead a long time ago, maybe too busy.. I try to be active, keep my pizza and chocolate eating to a minimum try to exercise..was pretty diligent about exercise until last year when I tore my rotator cuff... I enjoy each day, especially the sunny ones... my dogs snuggle gives me the "utz" that tingly feeling of butterflies... Al and I enjoy being together,we always talk about so much as ask how each other's day is going...I think I have "joi de vivre" working on getting Al's "jdv" levels up! Hope someday we'll be that "cute old couple" well into our 90's...
I find joy in everyday activities, if I get bored,I don't mind housework...I love to create new art,smell the flowers, smell the doggies... If that keeps me going into my 90's,I'm bottling it for later!


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> I haven't had time to sit down and share my thoughts on all of this. However, I do appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts and experiences.
> 
> To be honest, I don't want to think too much about the negative sides of growing older and death right now. I am working so hard to think positive and avoid becoming depressed. There are older people ... I mean well over 100 years old ... that are still happy and living a happy and productive life ... they are usually out there in the world ... still wanting to work and help others.
> 
> ...


And Marie, you bring me to another great point! The second fundamental issue we will all eventually confront is the realization that we live in a meaningless world. There is no built in scheme that that gives the world meaning. WE give meaning to our existance! What we chose to fill our lifes moments with and how we chose to experience this is who we become as people. This will eventually affect how we experience death (both of our loved ones, and eventually our own). I don't believe that discussing our eventual death is negative thing. It's like knowing the sun will set every day. Death should be viewed as a celebration of life and the fact that the journey is completed. What ever your religious or spiritual views are, death as natural as birth. We shouldn't dwell on it to the point that it consumes us, but it shouldn't be something that is hidden and never spoken of either.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

pammy4501 said:


> And Marie, you bring me to another great point! The second fundamental issue we will all eventually confront is the realization that we live in a meaningless world. There is no built in scheme that that gives the world meaning. WE give meaning to our existance! What we chose to fill our lifes moments with and how we chose to experience this is who we become as people. This will eventually affect how we experience death (both of our loved ones, and eventually our own). I don't believe that discussing our eventual death is negative thing. It's like knowing the sun will set every day. *Death should be viewed as a celebration of life and the fact that the journey is completed. What ever your religious or spiritual views are, death as natural as birth. We shouldn't dwell on it to the point that it consumes us, but it shouldn't be something that is hidden and never spoken of either.*


Death is a transition. It's a re-birth in an other place. In fact we should be happy for those who leave, like Pam said, their journey is complete. They are going home. Our life on Earth is only temporary.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

MalteseJane said:


> Death is a transition. It's a re-birth in an other place. In fact we should be happy for those who leave, like Pam said, their journey is complete. They are going home. Our life on Earth is only temporary.


That's why we need to live it to the fullest and accomplish all we can,stay busy, go for the goals we set... It's not about things,you can't take them with you. I do believe we retain our knowledge and experiences to a point. How else do you explain "deja vu" in a place, like a foreign country that you know you haven't been to before...
Had this happen many times when I was younger and traveled more, before the internet where it's possible to have seen it there....
Knowing how to do something ,having never studied it before...like my jewellery making,I'm self taught,I wonder how it comes so easily to me...why I'm so driven to create pieces, as if I didn't get them all finished in a previous life?
I think we grieve our loss and missing that person.
Al asked me today if I thought we'd find each other in the afterlife or next life... not finding each other again,is much more frightening to me than dying... He's my soul mate...Plus I want to see all my fluffies again,can't imagine the next life without them...


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I don't think death is natural. LIFE is natural. Think of the typical feelings and celebrations when a new life begins or an older life is extended. Now think of the feelings associated with death: sadness, grief, loneliness, loss, fear. . .


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

vjw said:


> I don't think death is natural. LIFE is natural. Think of the typical feelings and celebrations when a new life begins or an older life is extended. Now think of the feelings associated with death: sadness, grief, loneliness, loss, fear. . .


 
Death is as natural as birth, we come into this world with nothing we leave this world with nothing
Death does not have to be sad it can be a celebration of one's life and the end of their race down here, and finally getting the reward they ran for while they went through life's journey
Grief and Loneliness as well as Loss, are what we are left with down here when our loved ones go before us, we miss our loved one, we grieve the loss of them and loneliness comes when we wish we would have spent more time with them, and wish we could once again hear their voice, experience their love just one more time, I do believe that's why God gave us a memory, so we can get through the great loss down here
Fear I think that comes with not settling within your soul and spirit where you will go after you pass on, for me I know I will be going to be with my Lord Jesus, it gives me great peace in knowing when I get home I will be met by those who I love who have gone before me. That's why I have no fear of dying. How I die well that is where fear enters in if I let it, but I chose not to, when that time comes I believe the Lord will give me the strength to bear it, he promises he will be beside us and he won't give us more then what we can handle


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

vjw said:


> I don't think death is natural. LIFE is natural. Think of the typical feelings and celebrations when a new life begins or an older life is extended. Now think of the feelings associated with death: sadness, grief, loneliness, loss, fear. . .


Sadness, grief, loneliness, loss, fear... all those feelings have been instilled in us by the culture we grew up with. Why is death not natural ? Nobody can live for ever. One day or another the body we are in is going to give up. It's like a machine, one day the machine breaks down. Sometimes you can repair it and sometimes not. It is not always good when an older life is extended. I don't want to have my life extended to live like a vegetable just because it can. 



> How I die well that is where fear enters in if I let it


Paula that's me too. I don't fear dying, I fear HOW I will die.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

vjw said:


> I don't think death is natural. LIFE is natural. Think of the typical feelings and celebrations when a new life begins or an older life is extended. Now think of the feelings associated with death: sadness, grief, loneliness, loss, fear. . .


 Believe me, it is all natural. Birth...life...death. No one is getting out of these things. It's how you choose to view it.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

vjw said:


> I don't think death is natural. LIFE is natural. Think of the typical feelings and celebrations when a new life begins or an older life is extended. Now think of the feelings associated with death: sadness, grief, loneliness, loss, fear. . .


Actually, saddness, grief, loss, fear are just as natural as elation, peace, contentment etc. It all depends on what "LIFE' experiences we meet up with... and our own 'being' as to how and to what extent it affects us. 
We can feel all those negative emotions as easily with the 'separation' from someone in our lives that we care about by way of a 'fight/misunderstanting" etc. .. as well as caused by a death. I experienced this 'separation' with a living sister and to be honest it is more hurtful to me than the loss of my dear sister who passed. It shocked me and to me more 'un-natural' then my other sisters passing.
Don't know that I'm expressing this as I intend.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Pammy, Terry, Janine, and Paula, I agree with what you wrote. Of course, death is natural, even the great Sequoias, though may stand planted firmly in the earth for millions of years, will in time die. Unless, you consider that death is an illusion and really is change. Spirit doesn't die, it changes, but spirit is not of the "natural" world. How can a person ever be happy, if they hide from sorrow? This is the earth the place of balance, it is not Nirvana.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Sylie said:


> Pammy, Terry, Janine, and Paula, I agree with what you wrote. Of course, death is natural, even the great Sequoias, though may stand planted firmly in the earth for millions of years, will in time die. Unless, you consider that death is an illusion and really is change. Spirit doesn't die, it changes, but spirit is not of the "natural" world. How can a person ever be happy, if they hide from sorrow? This is the earth the place of balance, it is not Nirvana.


Well, I sure am not one who has hidden from sorrow. I do see people who pretend they are happy ... but really are not happy ... because they are too afraid to deal with sorrowful things that have happened in their life.

I don't understand what you mean by saying ... "This is the earth the place of balance, it is not Nirvana". Yes, I understand it is not Nirvana. However, I find it difficult to realistically see the earth as the place of balance. If that were so ... then why are so many people, in just the United States alone, on antidepressents, and/or rely on drinking to think it will take away their pain? I think there is a lot of imbalance in this world. But, I feel blessed to appreciate every bit of goodness that I see in this world.

A lot of us here have been lucky. I often wonder what it is like for someone, for instance, who is schizophernic. Their life is not normal ... nor balanced. 

I believe we are being tested. I believe we are here to continually learn lessons. I believe in Karma. 

Sylvia, most of the time I think my life is balanced. Well, sometimes I lose my balance ... and fall. :HistericalSmiley: Thank God,I have the gift to count my many blessings. And, have a pretty good sense of humor. And, thank God, that when my abusive ex- husband (of many years ago) threatened that if I divorced him ... he would make sure that I ended up in a mental institution. Well, I guess I am pretty stubborn and am a survivor, because I didn't end up there.

I just want to enjoy life as much as possible, and, continue to count my blessings. Life IS short ... for sure.

Okay, I have rambled on enough ... and who really cares. That's okay, too! LOL


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Maidto2Maltese said:


> Actually, saddness, grief, loss, fear are just as natural as elation, peace, contentment etc. It all depends on what "LIFE' experiences we meet up with... and our own 'being' as to how and to what extent it affects us.
> We can feel all those negative emotions as easily with the 'separation' from someone in our lives that we care about by way of a 'fight/misunderstanting" etc. .. as well as caused by a death. I experienced this 'separation' with a living sister and to be honest it is more hurtful to me than the loss of my dear sister who passed. It shocked me and to me more 'un-natural' then my other sisters passing.
> Don't know that I'm expressing this as I intend.


Terry, I understand 100%.:grouphug:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

MalteseJane said:


> Paula that's me too. I don't fear dying, I fear HOW I will die.


Me, too.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I don't have a lot of time nor the state of mind to articulate my reasons behind the unnatural nature of death. Here's comments from someone who shares my line of thinking:

Christian Living Resources, Bible Study Tools, Jesus Christ


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

vjw said:


> I don't have a lot of time nor the state of mind to articulate my reasons behind the unnatural nature of death. Here's comments from someone who shares my line of thinking:
> 
> Christian Living Resources, Bible Study Tools, Jesus Christ


 


when God made Adam and Eve his plan was to have them live and not die Genesis 2-15-17
AND THE LORD GOD COMMANDED THE MAN, "YOU ARE FREE TO EAT FROM ANY TREE IN THE GARDEN; BUT YOU MUST NOT EAT FROM THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, FOR WHEN YOU EAT OF IT YOU WILL SURELY DIE.
When Eve listened to the serpent (Satan) Genesis 3, they made a choice to disobey what God had told them, and sinned, Genesis 19
'BY THE SWEAT OF YOUR BROW YOU WILL EAT YOUR FOOD UNTIL YOU RETURN TO THE GROUND, SINCE FROM IT YOU WERE TAKEN; FOR DUST YOU ARE AND TO DUST YOU WILL RETURN"

it is their free will that caused death for all, because of their disobedience to God
But God loved us so much he sent his son Jesus 
John 3-16, it wasn't God's plan for us to die so it was unnatural until man sinned


I am not trying to preach to anyone, we all have our own beliefs, and I respect each of yours


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

It is a scary, hard topic for sure, a lot of sadness in this thread  My F-I-L died last year. He had aortic stenosis, but went into the hospital for severe stomach pain, which turned out to be a punctured bowel. After diagnosed by MRI, he was offered surgery, said no, he didn't want any more intervention and then was given morphine for pain and died the next day. It was very simply done really, two of the Doctors came to me to make sure I was ok with it, although I can't imagine why they would ask, maybe I seemed too matter of fact about it or something. It just made sense, Dad said he was so tired, he had had enough, it would have been cruel to have prolonged his pain. His mind was totally there, could still do the Times cryptic crossword in about 15 mins at age 94 

I am petrified of being stuck in a hospital unable to tell anyone that I want to go. Lying there in pain, unable to communicate or do anything about it. My Husband and kids know my feelings on it all but we haven't put anything in writing yet, this reminds me that I really must, we never know what could befall us at any time. If I was lying there finding it really hard to breathe, on strong morphine just waiting to die, I would rather me and my family be put out of misery I think, sooner rather than later. I see death as part of the circle of life, you can't have one without the other. 

My Father was in hospital this year at 92, with a chest infection, he was very angry to be there because he and my Mum agreed they weren't going to go anymore, but he was encouraged to go and taken by the family. He has had several strokes, and his once very strong body is now weak and frail, and his mind is forgetful and confused, but not so confused that he can't make his own strong decisions. When he was in the hospital he kept pulling out the iv's they kept putting in him, saying he didn't want anything. He is home and fine again now, but I know he is depressed and feeling like he doesn't want to be here anymore. He puts a good face on, with his huge smile, singing and constant jokes, but it must be so hard to get old. If he has another stroke I don't know if Mum could be strong enough to just let him go. 

Someone I heard actually got a huge DNR tattooed on their chest LOL. Good plan...

My Grandmother died in her sleep, if we could all go that way it would be marvelous.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I am on my way out the door so hope to get back to this topic tonight as I find it very interesting!
I have had 2 near death experiences---both very different & I learned a great deal about how I would approach death--surprised even myself!
:HistericalSmiley:
I do not think death is natural---it was not intended when God created us, but I do believe it is a natural consequence of our fallen state now. I think there is a lot to fear in death---even for those of us who believe in life eternal. I think most people want to continue life on this earth and strive to stay alive & be well if they are reasonably well & happy. 
One of my near death experiences happened so quickly that I didn't have time to think about it and didn't realize I almost died until I was much better. The other one happened slowly & I was more or less somewhat conscious that I was dying----I fought it---rightly or wrongly---because I did not feel I was ready to leave this world. The ambulance driver was sure I was a goner---he keps saying "stay with me lady, stay w/me!" He came later to the ER to see if I made it.
I believe that every breathing person has a "shelf-life" and that we are here for a purpose as long as God gives us breath. I know so many people who are already dead but still alive---why? Why not live life in the present, truly in the present each day. I want my girls to remember me as someone who truly lived and grabbed all of life wholeheartedly---and when I pass, I want them to know I embrace death (reluctantly) but with peace.
And yes, you can send me my flowers now---I don't want them after I die! :wub::wub:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

After retiring from my job after 30 years, I took three years off. During that time a girlfriend of mine had cancer and asked me if she could come live with us because she couldn't live on her own anymore. So from October till she died in March, I took care of her and the hospice nurse came twice a week. I watched my friend get weaker and weaker and in a lot of pain. Near the end, it was actually scary to see her smile because she looked like a skeleton. Even though she would eat some, her body didn't process it and she starved to death. Having to lay there in agonizing pain till you finally pass away seems horrible to me. I was up every night applying pain relieving cream to her pressure points, nothing seemed to work. She'd yell out in agony, and I was totally exhausted. In my opinion, that was totally unfair to her....if it were my dog, I'd have him/her put to sleep...just to be humane!!!!

Then three years ago, my mom laid in a hospital bed in her livingroom for months dying. Why do we have to let them suffer??? I just don't get it.

Now my sister is on hospice. She is in bed all the time either in great pain or asleep all day long. Now she isn't ready to go, so I don't feel the same about her because she still has hope and wants to make plans. Yesterday she called me and sounded really good!!! She wants me to join a local indoor pool for the winter. (she'll never be able to even get there - but as long as she has hope, I'll do whatever she wants). She has so many things wrong with her, she'll either go magically into remission, or she'll just pass away - no one knows because no doctors in this area know much about Neuro Sarcoidosis. 


When you watch someone in pain every day for months, and just waiting to die....you come to agree with Dr. Korvorkian


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

The A Team said:


> After retiring from my job after 30 years, I took three years off. During that time a girlfriend of mine had cancer and asked me if she could come live with us because she couldn't live on her own anymore. So from October till she died in March, I took care of her and the hospice nurse came twice a week. I watched my friend get weaker and weaker and in a lot of pain. Near the end, it was actually scary to see her smile because she looked like a skeleton. Even though she would eat some, her body didn't process it and she starved to death. Having to lay there in agonizing pain till you finally pass away seems horrible to me. I was up every night applying pain relieving cream to her pressure points, nothing seemed to work. She'd yell out in agony, and I was totally exhausted. In my opinion, that was totally unfair to her....if it were my dog, I'd have him/her put to sleep...just to be humane!!!!
> 
> Then three years ago, my mom laid in a hospital bed in her livingroom for months dying. Why do we have to let them suffer??? I just don't get it.
> 
> ...


 
Pat I am so sorry you went through all that with your friend, as you described all she and you went through it brought back all those memory's of my momma. I do understand how you felt and how you feel, my momma was in great pain (liver cancer), it was so hard watching her and hearing her go through all she did, one night she was in such great pain it entered my mind how easy it would be to help her out of her pain, I was shocked that I even had that thought, but I knew God had a better plan, at the time all I could do was pray and plead with God to be merciful. God used hospice to relieve my momma's pain level, once she was somewhat comfortable, wonderful things happened, momma shared with us that she saw Jesus, she described him to all who came to see her, she had wonderful time with each of her kids, I was able to snuggle with her when she looked as if she were in a coma, she actually moved her body next to mine and laid her head on mine, so very special for me, many more things took place before she took her last breath down here and her first breath in heaven. If I would have helped in taking her life we would have never experienced those priceless moments. 
We will never understand why so many kind, loving people have to pass on in great pain, but it's God who is in control, he knows the very hour we will die, I believe it's not up to man or woman to make that choice. It was through the death of my momma that made me not fear death, even through all her pain I saw a woman who had great faith and trust in God. I AM HONORED TO HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH SUCH A PRECIOUS GOD LOVING MOMMA


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Well, I sure am not one who has hidden from sorrow. I do see people who pretend they are happy ... but really are not happy ... because they are too afraid to deal with sorrowful things that have happened in their life.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by saying ... "This is the earth the place of balance, it is not Nirvana". Yes, I understand it is not Nirvana. However, I find it difficult to realistically see the earth as the place of balance. If that were so ... then why are so many people, in just the United States alone, on antidepressents, and/or rely on drinking to think it will take away their pain? I think there is a lot of imbalance in this world. But, I feel blessed to appreciate every bit of goodness that I see in this world.
> 
> ...


Marie, I did not mean to imply that each life is in balance, although that would be a goal to strive for. What I meant is that there is good and evil, there is happiness and sorrow, there are people who work for the advancement of mankind, and those who work through greed to advance their own lives at the expense of others. Even in nature, their are lives lost for the sustenance of other lives. 

When I dream of a future, I dream of a place where people are co-operative rather than competitive, a Place where nobody took pride in having more of life's abundance than they need, at the expense of those who do not have enough. I am an idealist...and I have a dream. I am also a realist and know it will never happen on this planet, or not in my life time.

At this moment, I feel my heart bleeding for a bad choice I made in my youth. I made so many bad choices. I didn't make bad choices out of greed or malice, I made bad choices out of love and trust and hope.

Oh sigh. I have to go and let Ray lick my tears away....again. 

Thank God, Nature, or just dumb Luck for our white fluff butts.:wub:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Sylie said:


> Marie, I did not mean to imply that each life is in balance, although that would be a goal to strive for. What I meant is that there is good and evil, there is happiness and sorrow, there are people who work for the advancement of mankind, and those who work through greed to advance their own lives at the expense of others. Even in nature, their are lives lost for the sustenance of other lives.
> 
> When I dream of a future, I dream of a place where people are co-operative rather than competitive, a Place where nobody took pride in having more of life's abundance than they need, at the expense of those who do not have enough. I am an idealist...and I have a dream. I am also a realist and know it will never happen on this planet, or not in my life time.
> 
> ...


Oh, Sylvia ... now I understand what you mean. And, I feel the same way.

And, what touches me the most ... is your sharing that you feel your heart bleeding for a bad choice that you made in your youth. Many bad choices. And, that these bad choices were not made out of greed or malice ... but, bad choices made out of love and trust and hope. I can so relate to that ... I think you already know that. So, darling Sylvia ... you are not alone.

I wish I could hug you in person right now. I love you, dear friend.:heart::smootch:


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

thank God he forgives us. Sylvia I use to beat myself up about the things I did wrong by choices I made in my past, I knew there was nothing I could do to take them back or to make things right, many nights I cried, I remember asking God to forgive me, I would still beat myself up, until one day I realized God not only forgave me but he also forgot it, it was me who kept thinking of it, since then I feel so free, when it comes up in my mind I stop and say Thank you Lord for being merciful to me. It really has set me free


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Sylvia I reread what I wrote, I didn't want to come across like I don't struggle, I do every day, so many times it's hard to take one day at a time, but I do hold on to the Lord's hand, he carries me through, I'm so weak without him
I love you Sylvia you have a tender heart, just know you are soooooo loved by sooooooo many of us


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Matilda's mommy said:


> thank God he forgives us. I use to beat myself up about the things I regret, I knew there was nothing I could do to take them back or to do over, I remember asking God to forgive me, I would still beat myself up, until one day I realized God not only forgave me but he also forgot it, it was me who kept thinking of it, since then I feel so free, when it comes up in my mind I stop and say Thank you Lord for being merciful to me. it really works


Paula, I have forgiven myself. I was very young and naive ... and, trusting. However, I cannot forgive someone who chose to ruin the lives of others. I know most of us are taught to forgive ... but, with the help of a professional who knows the whole story ... I feel at peace knowing I should not feel obligated to forgive someone who deliberately chose to try and ruin my life ... as well as the life of others. And, in my heart, I think God understands. I don't want to say any more here because it is way too personal. Only to say, I do believe in Karma and I do feel that God makes the final judgement. And, after I leave this earth ... the truth shall prevail. Until then ... my heart often bleeds ... just like Sylvia expressed about herself. However, I do my best to make sure my life has as healthy a balance as possible. I know Sylvia does, too.

Please remember, that despite it all ... I still count my many blessings every single day. I thank God that I can feel love ... and, that I reach out to others with caring, love, and kindness.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Paula, I have forgiven myself. I was very young and naive ... and, trusting. However, I cannot forgive someone who chose to ruin the lives of others. I know most of us are taught to forgive ... but, with the help of a professional who knows the whole story ... I feel at peace knowing I should not feel obligated to forgive someone who deliberately chose to try and ruin my life ... as well as the life of others. And, in my heart, I think God understands. I don't want to say any more here because it is way too personal. Only to say, I do believe in Karma and I do feel that God makes the final judgement. And, after I leave this earth ... the truth shall prevail. Until then ... my heart often bleeds ... just like Sylvia expressed about herself. However, I do my best to make sure my life has as healthy a balance as possible. I know Sylvia does, too.
> 
> Please remember, that despite it all ... I still count my many blessings every single day. I thank God that I can feel love ... and, that I reach out to others with caring, love, and kindness.


 
I think we each have huge regrets, we handle them differently, when someone does you wrong it's even harder, especially when you trust them. I'm just glad you were able to get away from the jerk. He or she will get his just reward in time. For me it had been things I did that I wished I would have had insight about,bad choices I made, people I hurt by my selfishness, so hard to look within myself, that's where I needed God to show me how much he loved me and forgave me.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Truth be told not one of us "deserves" forgiveness, it is an act of benevolence (having to do w. benefiting others) either by God to us or us to a fellow human.  Forgiveness does not mean I must invite that person back into my life.  Forgiveness frees the offended one and leaves God to deal w/the consequences of the offender's behavior.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Wow, this thread has become really religious!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Sometimes it is difficult to step out of one's own shadow.
Apologies if anyone is offended. It is not intentional---but death provokes such thoughts.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

pammy4501 said:


> Wow, this thread has become really religious!


Lol...which more or less answers the question of why we cannot chose to be PTS.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Sylie said:


> Lol...which more or less answers the question of why we cannot chose to be PTS.


Amen...(oops, that was religious!)


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> Amen...(oops, that was religious!)


Oh, dear lord ... I pray I have not said anything wrong. Heaven help me. :innocent: rayer: 

Seriously, I agree with what Sandi expressed. And, I was just trying to be lighthearted with the first sentences up there ... I use those expressions/words all the time. 

Personally, I feel this is/was a topic that makes it difficult for some of us, to some extent, to express how we truly feel about dying ... and what we choose to believe might happen after we die. 

And, I am not quite sure where we draw the line ... I mean, according to the SM guidelines and rules in regard to religion and politics. I do understand and know ... that religion and political discussions can get ugly ... I see it happen a lot on FB, and I don't like it at all. 

Many of us on SM ask for prayers and positive thoughts for our loved ones and fluff babies. I don't think any of us meant to offend anyone on this thread. I respect everyone's opinions and sharing their life experiences. 

I hope everyone has a great weekend!


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I tend to think it very difficult to share our feelings on the OT without reflecting personal beliefs whatever they might be. I do think everyone here has handled the subject matter in a very respectful manner.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

As for myself, I think this is a beautiful thread. Especially, in the fact that I (and you) can find value in each post....and see how much we really DO have similar feelings, even if we express them differently. I think this thread deals with the spiritual feelings, no matter what our individual religious practices might be.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I was not offended, but more of a gentle reminder of our SM rules. And I have long thought we should have a forum topic for prayer requests. I think it needs it's own spot.


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## Cassievt (Apr 24, 2013)

I think this was a beautiful thread with everyone being able to share their thoughts, express there emotions and feelings . I do feel like you all are very close friends and I am intruding reading this post. Hugs to everyone.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Cassievt said:


> I think this was a beautiful thread with everyone being able to share their thoughts, express there emotions and feelings . I do feel like you all are very close friends and I am intruding reading this post. Hugs to everyone.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You most certainly are not intruding. One thousand three hundred and forty people have read this thread. As the one who started it, I welcome all input. I know that some people find it hard to talk about, but I think that talking about what we feel, what we fear, what we hope is empowering.:wub:


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

we can share our views and do it respectful, years ago there would have been a fight on a thread like this , it's so refreshing to have friends who really care about one another, I love you guys


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Cassievt said:


> I think this was a beautiful thread with everyone being able to share their thoughts, express there emotions and feelings . I do feel like you all are very close friends and I am intruding reading this post. Hugs to everyone.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Awww ... this is part of our SM family. We are here for one another ... even if we disagree sometimes.

Linda ... Welcome to our Spoiled Maltese family! :tender:


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Cassievt said:


> I think this was a beautiful thread with everyone being able to share their thoughts, express there emotions and feelings . I do feel like you all are very close friends and I am intruding reading this post. Hugs to everyone.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
I THINK WE DO RESPECT ONE ANOTHER, WE MIGHT HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS BUT THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT SO SPECIAL, YOU ARE WELCOME TO BE APART OF THIS THREAD, LOVE TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS, BY THE WAY :Welcome 4: I LOVE SM WE ARE A SPECIAL GROUP WE DO REALLY CARE ABOUT ONE ANOTHER


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I can, and often do, recite every word of Hamlet's soliloquy..."To be, or not to be" simply stating that is an age old dilemma. Now Hamlet spoke of emotional pain, but I think we are discussing physical pain, compounded by emotional pain...and financial suffering for our loved ones as well. Have you read Jerry's (Rock's post) on his battle with trigeminal neuralgia? Did you Google the maladie? I did. Throughout the ages it has been an illness which causes such indescribable pain that it is commonly called the "suicide disease." From what I read I imagine it to be something akin to Nazi torture...you may remember some movie where they drilled into Dustin Hoffman's teeth and inserted a sharp instrument to touch the nerves. That is how I view this. But this excruciating pain can last hours. People become afraid to comb their hair or brush their teeth for fear of triggering the pain. Does anyone believe that a loving God would deliberately inflict this on a living creature? I think not. I think it is a random accident.
I hope with all my heart that our friend does not suffer many boughts of this pain.

But does anyone of us know what we would really do, what we would really want? I say that I would not want to continue a life without a well functioning mental capacity, but until that day comes, I honestly do not know what I would do. I do not honestly know what I would do if ......if....if.

But, my fifteen and a half year old dog seems to have grown a tumor. She has several skin growths, but this one has turned black. She is too old and frail to undergo an operation, which would probably be futile anyway. Should I let it grow to the size of a grapefruit and let her suffer? Or should I let it go as long as she is still happy and when I see that she is in pain and has no hope...should I take her to the vet, hold her in my arms, and let her fall into the big sleep?


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I don't mind talking about religion or politic as long as every one respects each others opinion. We might disagree on some things but on others we might find common ground. As seen in this thread. Personally I don't believe in prayers. I believe that if something is supposed to happen it will happen if you pray or not. But if praying makes you feel good, I am not going to tell you not to. What is important is that you feel good. 

When you talk about "God", I replace that name with another one. For me, we are all "Gods", we are all a sparkle of all there is. When we experience trauma in this life time it is to balance out what happened in another lifetime. That's what I believe. We choose our life to learn lessons. For that we need to know what is good AND what is bad. If there would be only good, there would not be anything to learn. 

When it comes to suicide it depends the reason. This is from a book of Michael Newton : "_When there is unendurable physical suffering, we have the right to be released from the pain and indignity of being treated like helpless children connected to life-support systems. In the spirit world, I find that no stigma is attached to a soul leaving a terribly broken body who is released by its own hand or from that of a compassionate caregiver"_.

I don't know what I would really do and I don't think anybody knows what they would do before they are confronted with such a decision. Today, I would say, yes I will do it. But once I would have to make the decision I am not so sure.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

MalteseJane said:


> I don't mind talking about religion or politic as long as every one respects each others opinion. We might disagree on some things but on others we might find common ground. As seen in this thread. Personally I don't believe in prayers. I believe that if something is supposed to happen it will happen if you pray or not. But if praying makes you feel good, I am not going to tell you not to. What is important is that you feel good.
> 
> When you talk about "God", I replace that name with another one. For me, we are all "Gods", we are all a sparkle of all there is. When we experience trauma in this life time it is to balance out what happened in another lifetime. That's what I believe. We choose our life to learn lessons. For that we need to know what is good AND what is bad. If there would be only good, there would not be anything to learn.
> 
> ...


I love you ! You speak the truth.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

The problem with talking about religion is it becomes hard to even express your opinion if it's different from what one's religion tells them. All religions tell stories. People who believe in a certain religion believe their story is fact, everything else is just that; stories. 

Because one's religion is a big part of who they are, it's hard to tell someone, "hey, my opinion is what you believe about life (and death) is a lie because I grew up hearing an alternate theory." It's not something that can be debated. And in my opinion whenever religion becomes the basis of a discussion (for example, whether death is or isn't natural), it becomes hard to continue discussing that topic without offending someone.

While I agree that this discussion has stayed very civil, I do think once religion creeps into any discussion it becomes exclusive to people who agree with those ideas. Additionally, it's not just about agreeing or disagreeing with a set of ideas, there's also the fact that there are many, many more sets of ideas out there.

Now, I know most people on here are either Christians or 'not Christians', as opposed to people who follow other religions. So carry on carrying on. None of this offends me, so please don't misunderstand this post. I just wanted to chime in about why religion might not be a good idea to talk about unless a forum was specifically about that, because it ends up alienating some of your audience.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

This thread is amazing to me. I shows that those who follow conventional religious beliefs and those who follow more esoteric spiritual beliefs are really on the "same page". We must all follow our hearts, our upbringing, our thinking....and the bottom line is that is it is the same with different words. Where one might say Jesus is their savior, and another might interpret Jesus as human intellectual capacity, it amounts to the same thing in different words. On this forum love and understanding abounds. On a forum on the world wide web....with thousands listening, I think it all amount to love for our fellows...human and dogs. It amounts to a sincere gratitude for life.


IT AMOUNT TO A LOT OF LOVE. :chili:


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

eiksaa said:


> The problem with talking about religion is it becomes hard to even express your opinion if it's different from what one's religion tells them. All religions tell stories. People who believe in a certain religion believe their story is fact, everything else is just that; stories.
> 
> Because one's religion is a big part of who they are, it's hard to tell someone, "hey, my opinion is what you believe about life (and death) is a lie because I grew up hearing an alternate theory." It's not something that can be debated. And in my opinion whenever religion becomes the basis of a discussion (for example, whether death is or isn't natural), it becomes hard to continue discussing that topic without offending someone.
> 
> ...


religion is about doctrine, not belief. We are not discussing doctrine, we are discussing feelings...it is absolutely not a discussion of religion, only about feelings, emotions, fears, strengths...within our human bonds. I for one would truly welcome your feelings, thoughts.

I started this thread to discuss our feelings...NOT religion.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

MalteseJane said:


> I don't mind talking about religion or politic as long as every one respects each others opinion. We might disagree on some things but on others we might find common ground. As seen in this thread. Personally I don't believe in prayers. I believe that if something is supposed to happen it will happen if you pray or not. But if praying makes you feel good, I am not going to tell you not to. What is important is that you feel good.
> 
> When you talk about "God", I replace that name with another one. For me, we are all "Gods", we are all a sparkle of all there is. When we experience trauma in this life time it is to balance out what happened in another lifetime. That's what I believe. We choose our life to learn lessons. For that we need to know what is good AND what is bad. If there would be only good, there would not be anything to learn.
> 
> ...


Great post, Janine. 

About suicide. My beloved brother, Joe, took his life at the tender age of eighteen. He was an A student. He was so handsome. He didn't drink or do drugs. He got up early in the morning to faithfully do his newspaper route. He was generous and kind to others. And, he was so loved by his friends and teachers.

A lot was going on at home that I wasn't aware of at the time. When I turned eighteen I moved to Washington, D. C. A few months before he shot himself ... he snuck down to Washington with a friend to surprise me with a visit. I had no idea, whatsoever, that he was so unhappy. I, to this day, regret that I wasn't mature enough to sense something was bothering him. He said he just wanted to spend a little time with me ... he wanted to buy me dinner ... and, then he and his friend left to go back home. It was such a lovely visit.

One night ... it was very late ... I get a call from my step-father telling me to come home. He told me Joe had shot himself. I thought it was an accident. I was shocked and confused when I got home to learn that it was not an accident.

I am still angry that my step-father (who was abusive toward me) would not take me up to the hospital to see Joe. Joe lived for about another day and was able to communicate with a priest. I think my step-father didn't want Joe to confide in me the truth ... I am sure of it now.

I do know that Joe was found passed out in the snow during a blizzard that year. He was diagnosed with having possible epilepsy. However, he was also in love. And, both my family and her family forbid them from seeing one another. I learned this after reading a letter my brother wrote and kept in his Bible. I also regret to this day that I showed the letter to my mother and step-father ... because the letter disappeared.

However, despite all of this ... I am at peace knowing how loved my brother was by so many people. So loved by his classmates and friends ... and, teachers ... that the high school (he was a senior and died in March ... yes, that close to graduation) closed school the day a special viewing was arranged so that his classmates could say their final good-byes.

I will never forget the hundreds of kids that came to that viewing, So many in tears and kneeling and saying prayers in front of his casket. And, the flowers ... so many individual flower bouguets, that the funeral director had to open up other viewing rooms, and even hang floral arrangements on the draperies until we could transfer the flowers to the funeral site, hospital, and churches. How many times do you think a school cancels classes so that the school can pay respects for a student? My brother was that special and so well loved.

At the viewing, his girlfriend broke down ... and, in front of everyone screamed that she hated her parents. I tried my best to comfort her. She ended up having a nervous breakdown over this. However, she later healed and went on to become a nurse and then later marry. 

And, Monsignor John Esseff, who held my hands while we stood together in front of Joe's casket ... asking me if there was anything he could do for us. He also shared with me, without my asking ... that my brother was definitely in Heaven ... despite how Joe took his own life. So, I asked him if he could stop by to my mother's house one day and spend a few moments with her. He spent the whole afternoon with her. And, she is not even Catholic. In fact, my brother didn't attend the Catholic church. Joe taught a children's Sunday School class at a Methodist church. And, I was the young girl who always asked Monsignor Esseff questions like ... how could St. Christopher be demoted from sainthood? And, what about all those St. Christopher medals? But, despite it all ... he was there for us when it was least expected.

I know I have shared this story before. And, I am not sure why I am sharing it again. I can tell you this though ... I do believe my brother is in a better place. And, I would give anything if he were still here. I never really got to tell him how much I really loved him. 

This is why I think it is so important for those who suffer from depression ... to reach out and talk about it with friends that you trust. Real friends are there for you. And, seek a good therapist who can help ... it can help so much.

And, when you look up at the sky on a beautiful starry filled evening ... please think of my brother Joe ... he is a bright shining star in the heavens.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I am going out right now to look at the stars...I will see Joe there. I love your sweet soul dear Mairie...gotta go outside and look at the stars. The stars are full of wisdom and comfort.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

My childhood friend commited suicide last year, she had a brain injury and she had paranoid delusions of people trying to kill her, they couldnt' help her, no meds or therapy could help, not even her family could break through it.. She finally shot herself, saying in her suicide note ,she'd rather take her life than have "them" kill her. I hurt so bad thinking if only I could have been there,but she hurt and was in a fearful place. She's at peace now ,I can't image living in the **** in her head...

My mother commited suicide, she had TB and couldn't face it alone, she abandonned us kids, went out west and eventually it got to be too much and killed herself. She had a lot of pain in her life, she was an alcoholic and physically abusive,things she couldn't escape...
Sometimes pain isn't just physical.


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## Cassievt (Apr 24, 2013)

Sylvie, reading this post I wasn't really feeling people were expressing their religious views (well maybe a little) but what I was taking away from this thread was the compassion and love you have for each other and your fur babies.

I understood and felt so much emotion in everyone's thread and had the same feelings. 

Marie, I also look at the stars and talk to the people who have passed in my life. I will add your brother Joe to my stars. 

Having a friend/friends to share your innermost thoughts, feelings good or bad , right or wrong without judgement is one of the most precious thing that our generation has .

Sending thoughts, prayers and hugs to everyone. 

Now Sylvie I am upset for you hearing about your oldest fur baby. I had two toy poodles both lived to be 16yrs. One was dying of hear failure and was suffering so we had to let her go. Our 2nd dog just sat straight up and keeled right over. We swore NO MORE DOGS! Now we have Cassie and she has taken over our house,hearts and love. 

Think stargazing.🐶













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## Cassievt (Apr 24, 2013)

By the way what is 


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## Cassievt (Apr 24, 2013)

PDS? Lol!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Cassievt said:


> PDS? Lol!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



P*T*S Put to sleep
:wub:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I am just catching up w/this thread & want to say to Sylie how sad I feel for your "old girl." That won't be an easy decision for you, my friend. My heart is w/you.

I have mulled over in my tiny brain yesterday this discussion and it keeps coming back to me that each person has their own "system of beliefs" whether they think of themselves as spiritual or not. I do NOT consider myself a religious person & I am certainly not pious, but I do think of myself as spiritual & try to order my life in terms of my personal beliefs. In fact, I make my living by being associated w/a Christian organization (I sometimes say to people: "I get paid for being good, the rest of you are good for nothing." wink, wink:HistericalSmiley 
What I often observe as someone who has lived outside my own culture for a long time, and therefore has some distance to it, is that Americans have difficulty in disagreeing agreeably! We all have our "religions" whether they are defined as one or not---those without official religious titles could be called agnostic or atheist---but that is also a definite system of belief. In some ways we are all who we are because of our belief system---that is what I meant when I said "it is difficult for one to step outside of one's shadow."
I think this interchange of thoughts is healthy & has been conducted in respect for one another. Kudos to all of you!:aktion033::aktion033::thumbsup:


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## gopotsgo (May 21, 2009)

Matilda's mommy said:


> Death is as natural as birth, we come into this world with nothing we leave this world with nothing
> Death does not have to be sad it can be a celebration of one's life and the end of their race down here, and finally getting the reward they ran for while they went through life's journey
> Grief and Loneliness as well as Loss, are what we are left with down here when our loved ones go before us, we miss our loved one, we grieve the loss of them and loneliness comes when we wish we would have spent more time with them, and wish we could once again hear their voice, experience their love just one more time, I do believe that's why God gave us a memory, so we can get through the great loss down here
> Fear I think that comes with not settling within your soul and spirit where you will go after you pass on, for me I know I will be going to be with my Lord Jesus, it gives me great peace in knowing when I get home I will be met by those who I love who have gone before me. That's why I have no fear of dying. How I die well that is where fear enters in if I let it, but I chose not to, when that time comes I believe the Lord will give me the strength to bear it, he promises he will be beside us and he won't give us more then what we can handle


I told myself I wasn't going to post on this thread, but after reading the above I just can't help myself. A friend posted the below on Facebook,

GOD NEVER GIVES US MORE THAN WHAT WE CAN HANDLE.
APPARENTLY, HE THINKS I AM A BADASS.​It just cracked me up!:HistericalSmiley:


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## Cassievt (Apr 24, 2013)

I first looked at this thread because I did not know what PTS was.... Thought it maybe was a Maltese problem. 😔 Then while reading the heart felt comments I was feeling " all of your emotions". 

Thank you Sylie for telling me what PTS means. That is the reason that I swore " no more dogs"! It hurts so much... Then we fell in love. Head over heals. . I am sorry to hear about your older dog... Everyone is here for you as I am sure you have been there for others. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Cassievt said:


> I first looked at this thread because I did not know what PTS was.... Thought it maybe was a Maltese problem. 😔 Then while reading the heart felt comments I was feeling " all of your emotions".
> 
> Thank you Sylie for telling me what PTS means. That is the reason that I swore " no more dogs"! It hurts so much... Then we fell in love. Head over heals. . I am sorry to hear about your older dog... Everyone is here for you as I am sure you have been there for others.
> 
> ...


I feel so fortunate that I have only had to have one of my furbabies PTS. I knew beyond a doubt that it was the kindest thing to do, but it hurt so bad. My next two went to the rainbow bridge before we got to the vet. It was heartbreaking to loose my little darlings, but it was natural and much easier.

I hope with all my heart, Ru will go quietly in her comfy bed. For the moment she is still trucking along. And it looks like that black thing may just be a blood blister. 

So, all in all, I would say that being PTS, whether for our pets, or for ourselves, it is, and should be, a last resort to aleve long suffering.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

gopotsgo said:


> I told myself I wasn't going to post on this thread, but after reading the above I just can't help myself. A friend posted the below on Facebook,
> 
> GOD NEVER GIVES US MORE THAN WHAT WE CAN HANDLE.
> APPARENTLY, HE THINKS I AM A BADASS.​
> It just cracked me up!:HistericalSmiley:


 
:thumbsup::HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley:


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## Aarianne (Jul 22, 2005)

Such an interesting topic, but a difficult one to discuss freely on a forum like SM imo.

I actually just read an article in the Sept/Oct 2013 issue of Humanist magazine called The End about one woman's experience with her husband's choice to die with dignity and how they followed through with it. (You can access the complete article online if this interests you.)

I hope that by the time my body and/or mind are starting to really fail me later in life that assisted suicide will be more legal here (or wherever I am by then). I'm only in my 30's, so I figure that if I stay healthy, there's plenty of time for laws and our culture to to shift... even a little would be much appreciated. I feel strongly that individuals should be allowed to choose when they want to die instead of society or nature choosing for them. 

As Temple Grandin put it (but in the context of the humane treatment and slaughter of animals): "Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." I think that pretty much sums up my thoughts on assisted suicide/death.


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## Rocks (Jul 9, 2012)

Good topic. It is something I have been thinking about for a while now. As some of you know my dad is not going to be around much longer. He has had several strokes and has a brain aneurism bleeding deep in his brain that they can't operate on. Many days he doesn't even know who I am and some of the days he does know he still thinks I live at home and am going to high school still (I'm 52) My mom is also in poor health, very over weight and a whole host of medical problems that come with old age and being over weight. A couple weeks ago my mom actually said she will be relieved when my dad finally passes. I know how she meant it because she loves him dearly and she only meant that at least he would be out of pain and in peace. I also don't think she will live much longer once he passes because the stress of losing her husband would really be hard on her already poor health.

Myself I don't know what the laws are but I really don't want my body touched, no embalming, no nothing done to my body at all, just stick me in a box and put me in the ground. Instead of a regular funeral I'd prefer to have the people I care about watch videos of me doing different things like some of the bands I played in doing live shows. If I was lucky enough to go at the same time as my Louie dog and Miss Boo I'd like them buried with me, my BFF's along with my favorite guitar. I'd be happiest if during the video funeral if people would dance one more time to my music. If I knew my death was coming soon and it would be very painful I'd take one last ride on my motorcycle with no helmet and no regards to speed limits on a stretch of highway I know that has very, very little traffic and as soon as I felt that I had one last great ride I'd steer for something very solid that wouldn't move like a brick wall, I'd never feel a thing and I would make peace with my maker on my ride and pray he takes me into his arms and welcomes me to heaven. Then bury whats left of me in my favorite jeans and my black Fender Guitar t-shirt. The EMT's that would find me would most likely wonder why I had such a big smile on my face after hitting that wall. It's my life, I should be able to choose how I leave this world.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Sylie said:


> I feel so fortunate that I have only had to have one of my furbabies PTS. I knew beyond a doubt that it was the kindest thing to do, but it hurt so bad. My next two went to the rainbow bridge before we got to the vet. It was heartbreaking to loose my little darlings, but it was natural and much easier.
> 
> I hope with all my heart, Ru will go quietly in her comfy bed. For the moment she is still trucking along. And it looks like that black thing may just be a blood blister.
> 
> So, all in all, I would say that being PTS, whether for our pets, or for ourselves, it is, and should be, a last resort to aleve long suffering.


Yes in a way you are lucky. Alex was my third one and it was the hardest one to do. The first one was a dachshund, he was not really my dog, he was my father's dog. My mom and myself went to the vet because the dog was sick with a cold. I am still mad today at that vet because he euthanized the dog saying there is nothing he can do about it. Maybe if I could have proof that this was the case I would change my mind. Due to this, when it was time to PTS our lhasa apso I could not go with my husband to do it. Today I regret my decision. I still remember when I held him in my arms before my husband left with him to go to the vet. I loved those dogs, but not in the same way I loved Alex. Putting Alex down was the worst thing I did in my life. I still ask myself if I did the right thing. It's not an easy decision to make. But if I would have had to watch him suffocating because he could not get more air, I would feel even more guilty. I wished so many times that he would go on his own without any pain.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Rocks said:


> Good topic. It is something I have been thinking about for a while now. As some of you know my dad is not going to be around much longer. He has had several strokes and has a brain aneurism bleeding deep in his brain that they can't operate on. Many days he doesn't even know who I am and some of the days he does know he still thinks I live at home and am going to high school still (I'm 52) My mom is also in poor health, very over weight and a whole host of medical problems that come with old age and being over weight. A couple weeks ago my mom actually said she will be relieved when my dad finally passes. I know how she meant it because she loves him dearly and she only meant that at least he would be out of pain and in peace. I also don't think she will live much longer once he passes because the stress of losing her husband would really be hard on her already poor health.
> 
> Myself I don't know what the laws are but I really don't want my body touched, no embalming, no nothing done to my body at all, just stick me in a box and put me in the ground. Instead of a regular funeral I'd prefer to have the people I care about watch videos of me doing different things like some of the bands I played in doing live shows. If I was lucky enough to go at the same time as my Louie dog and Miss Boo I'd like them buried with me, my BFF's along with my favorite guitar. I'd be happiest if during the video funeral if people would dance one more time to my music. If I knew my death was coming soon and it would be very painful I'd take one last ride on my motorcycle with no helmet and no regards to speed limits on a stretch of highway I know that has very, very little traffic and as soon as I felt that I had one last great ride I'd steer for something very solid that wouldn't move like a brick wall, I'd never feel a thing and I would make peace with my maker on my ride and pray he takes me into his arms and welcomes me to heaven. Then bury whats left of me in my favorite jeans and my black Fender Guitar t-shirt. The EMT's that would find me would most likely wonder why I had such a big smile on my face after hitting that wall. It's my life, I should be able to choose how I leave this world.


You can put in your will and last testament what you want to do with your body. We did this. It's all on black and white. We even told our daughter. She knows. We want to be cremated. Go the cheapest way you can go. We don't want her to spend any money on how to dispose of us. She needs the money for her family. Why spend money on dead people. Dead people don't need money. We don't want church service. We don't believe in it anyway. If they want to do a celebration of life it's ok with us but it will be more for themselves than for us. Bye the way I have a tendency to call myself as an atheist but it probably is not the right term since I still believe in an afterlife, reincarnation and karma. 

Sometimes I wonder if we get so sick that it puts a strain on our other partner, it is not on purpose, to make the transition easier for the one who is left. Because the day we die, it's a relieve for the one left. It's still a loss, but at the same time a relieve. I have seen that with one of my sister in law. She would never had been able to cope with a disabled husband from a stroke. And he would have been even worse and make a **** out of their last years.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Aarianne said:


> Such an interesting topic, but a difficult one to discuss freely on a forum like SM imo.
> 
> I actually just read an article in the Sept/Oct 2013 issue of Humanist magazine called The End about one woman's experience with her husband's choice to die with dignity and how they followed through with it. (You can access the complete article online if this interests you.)
> 
> ...


Yes it is an interesting topic to discuss. As long as we respect anybody else's take on it, it's fine. We don't have to agree. As long as each of us is comfortable in what they choose for themselves it's okay.
You are still young, and times will change.... IF you, young people want to change it. But not many of your own age think about stuff like this like you do. But maybe more and more young people will start talking about it. When I was young, nobody wanted to talk about it. So this is a start.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

MalteseJane said:


> You can put in your will and last testament what you want to do with your body. We did this. It's all on black and white. We even told our daughter. She knows. We want to be cremated. Go the cheapest way you can go. We don't want her to spend any money on how to dispose of us. She needs the money for her family. Why spend money on dead people. Dead people don't need money. We don't want church service. We don't believe in it anyway. If they want to do a celebration of life it's ok with us but it will be more for themselves than for us. Bye the way I have a tendency to call myself as an atheist but it probably is not the right term since I still believe in an afterlife, reincarnation and karma.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if we get so sick that it puts a strain on our other partner, it is not on purpose, to make the transition easier for the one who is left. Because the day we die, it's a relieve for the one left. It's still a loss, but at the same time a relieve. I have seen that with one of my sister in law. She would never had been able to cope with a disabled husband from a stroke. And he would have been even worse and make a **** out of their last years.


We want to be cremated and all out dogs urns put in a mausoleum drawer with us,we'll all be together... Al doesn't want to be buried,me I could care less as long as we're all together... No funeral, no preacher ,who never met us saying words over us... If friends want to meet eat somewhere and talk "smack" about us, that's what we'd like...
My friend Sandy wasn't a church goer,so we friends get together once in a while, bring her ashes and talk "smack " about her,all in fun and celebrate life.. I think she'd love it...


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