# Breeding a Small Maltese Safe??



## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

Hi, I have a 5lb 10 month old Maltese that has just finished her first heat. I would like to breed her on her second heat and then fix her.

Her breeeding partner is a 9lb Maltipoo.

Is there anything to be concerned about or is this a safe match?

Thanks!


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

ay yi yi !!!


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## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

What does that mean?

Can she be bred?


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Why do you want to breed her? Personally, I would just spay her now and not risk it.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Mr. Maltese said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> Can she be bred?


 

There's a history of inexperienced breeders who ask this type of question not being treated so well on this forum.

I'll leave most of the breeding comments to the dog breeders, however common sense tells me that there would be a risk to your small female breeding to a male dog who is considerably larger. The puppies could be too big for her to deliver them.


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## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

Well, I have the litter spoken for already from friends and family and am willing to do the work.

Just want to know the risks.


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## CharmingDior (May 19, 2011)

*hmmm...*

I think you should listen to the more experienced people who have already posted to your thread. 

I want to be honest and not rude...so here goes:blush::

1. There are enough designer breeds(mutts) that need rescuing at shelters and puppy mill type settings. So please don't contribute.

2. Breeding should be left up to the professionals who breed for the betterment of the breed, not for the profit or "medical betterment" of the dog. Breeding is more than allowing two dogs to tie. There is so much time, energy, effort, and $$$ that goes into breeding. :smilie_tischkante: 

3. Most people who are looking to breed would have a mentor and would not have to come to a forum to ask a very umm, "obvious" question. 

4. Your pup is too young; even by the time she goes into her second heat she will be too young. (This could be dangerous because she may or may not be a good mother if bred too young. Then she could reject her pups or even try to kill them. If she rejects them, you would have to do around the clock 2-3 hour bottle feedings.)

5. You need more experience and knowledge for the best interest and safety of the potential dam, sire, and puppies. (You should try attending local dog shows and seeing if you could "study" under a breeder for more experience and advice. Watch a pro and you will learn a ton!)

6. The potential sire is way too large for your girl. A pup could get stuck in the birth canal and depending on which order it is being born it could kill all the pups after it and even the mother. (She will have to have a $2000+ surgery.)

I can go on and on, but what I really want you to take from all of this is:

IT IS TOO DANGEROUS...for you, the potential dam and sire, the puppies, as well as the mutts already in need of a home. There are even purebreds in pounds. There is no medical need for your girl to go through heat or get pregnant. She can be spayed right away.
If you stick around and ask a few of the breeders on the forum you will soon discover that they barely break even with the pricing of their pups. Some dogs have to undergo expensive c-sections, the dam & sire should be DNA tested, vet checked, and proven to superb examples of the breed. (This is done by competing in dog shows, etc.) It is NOT lucrative if done properly, the people who make the big bucks are usually unethical breeders...
Please take heed and not offense to my message. I really just want the best for the fluffs!:wub:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

If those are the two dogs in question that you are holding, the maltipoo looks CONSIDERABLY bigger than the maltese and personally, i would never ever ever take that kind of a risk just because your friends and family want a puppy. i understand loving your animals so much that you want to 'clone' them in the form of puppies but really, I would think very carefully about this. 

It's not just willing to do the work - there are sooooo many things to consider. Your friends won't be thanking you if the puppy you produce and give to them winds up costing thousands and thousands of dollars because of something like a liver shunt. Do you mind if I ask where you got your maltese and malti-poo? 

This is one of those questions that tend to ruffle feathers but just know it's because we love our dogs here, not because we are trying to be mean or ornery. Sooo many things can go wrong and at the very least, an emergency c section could very well be needed because the puppies are too big for the mom. I am not sure where you live but where I am at in California, depending on the time of day, etc, an emergency c-section is a minimum of $1500 and usually a whole lot more. If you don't have at least $1500 that you can 'spare', I wouldn't even think of breeding.

So I would really think twice about this. But to answer your question, a 5 lb bitch is 'big' enough to be bred - but I personally would never risk breeding a female to a male that is so much larger- it is just asking for trouble. The risks include losing your precious girl and the puppies and you have to ask yourself - would it really be that worth it ? I also am not a fan of breeding mixed breeds, esp since you don't know size wise what is behind the maltipoo.

If you have any questions about anything - feel free to ask or PM me. I do breed my dogs and have had more than my fair share of csections.


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## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

There is a *4lb *difference between the Maltese and Maltipoo. The pic was taken when the Maltese was younger.

The pups *will not* be going to shelters, they are spoken for from very responsible people.

I am *not* interested in making money off this litter and the Maltese would be fixed afterwards.

I *have *the money to pay for any complications that may arise. I am not destitute nor am I ignorant.

I am fairly certain that EVERY breeder had a First Time Litter.k:

Anyway, I want to know the real life risks of a *4LB* difference.

And PLEASE dont tell me if you have to ask you shouldn't breed because that IS ignorance.

Thanks!


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Mr. Maltese said:


> There is a *4lb *difference between the Maltese and Maltipoo. The pic was taken when the Maltese was younger.
> 
> The pups *will not* be going to shelters, they are spoken for from very responsible people.
> 
> ...


4 lbs is too much of a size difference, imo. You run a far greater risk of complications and as I said before, if you don't know what size dogs are behind the malti-poo, it adds even more of a risk. It just doesn't seem worth the risk. If you're determined to breed her regardless of the information you get here, I would try to find a male closer to her size, since that is what you are asking - if it is dangerous to breed because of the size difference. And personally, i just wouldnt' risk it. It's not worth it if something happens to your precious pet.

Where did you get your maltese and malti-poo?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

There are always risks when breeding a small bitch to a dog almost twice her size. My fear would be that the puppies may be so large in utero that your bitch could end up with a ruptured uterus. Then you have an emergency c-section, a spay, a sick or perhaps dead bitch, a litter of premature stillborn puppies, a huge vet bill, and heartbroken family and friends. Why risk it when your family and friends can get mixed breed puppies from their local shelters?


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## CharmingDior (May 19, 2011)

*What is Ignorance?*



Mr. Maltese said:


> There is a *4lb *difference between the Maltese and Maltipoo. The pic was taken when the Maltese was younger.
> 
> The pups *will not* be going to shelters, they are spoken for from very responsible people.
> 
> ...


"Ignorance is lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular." So I will leave that alone since no one has called you ignorant or any name for that matter. (No one here has tried to become confrontational towards you. Honestly, if you ask a question with the expectations of getting candid, genuine responses then you should be willing to just take the good with the bad and choose which apply to you.) If you come with an already made up mind then the answers you receive here will do no good. So please be patient with all of us here as we sincerely try to help you and your pets.

You have been given several excellent pieces of advise and potential "health" risks associated with breeding your pet. It is a LONG road from 2 dogs mating and puppies running off to their new homes. Yes, every breeder has their first litter but responsible first time breeders usually have a breeding mentor available for all the questions and chaos that arrive when a dog goes into labor and possibly experience complications. Consider what is best for your pet.

_If you are going to spay her anyway, then why are you wanting to breed her first?_


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

You are right, every breeder has to start somewhere. I just had my own first litter. My personal start came after owning and loving this breed for 20 years. I have been involved in rescue, obedience, therapy work, showing in conformation. I have attended breeding seminars, read literally hundreds of books, and worked with several more experienced breeders in the process, including witnessing birth of other toy breed dogs. Yes, I may be an extreme example of how long the commitment should be before deciding to undertake breeding, but frankly the point is that there are those who start somewhere and those who start after careful consideration and a demonstrated commitment to learning what it means to be a Breeder before actually becoming one. 

You came to a great place here. The folks around here love their dogs and they are willing to share about them. You came to this forum where people tend to feel strongly about breeder ethics. 

If you seriously want to be a breeder, and get your start somewhere, we have a few experienced breeders who are members who may be able to offer their assistance if you are willing to demonstrate that commitment to learning what it means to be a knowledgeable and ethical breeder.


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

Usually I stay out of these sorts of posts because I don't breed nor do I ever want to breed. Asking questions about breeding when you're a first timer isn't ignorant at all, you're right...but breeding when there is already a dire overpopulation problem in the world today is ignorant (IMO that goes with all species unless on the brink of extinction). Why contribute to the problem? 

And also your male dog is too big to be bred with that little one.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Please don't breed that little sweetie. The advice you've received is accurate - the male is almost twice the size of your female and that is far too risky.

There are also a number of us here who are involved in rescue and have seen first hand what happens when well-meaning owners breed their fluffs and give/sell them to family and friends who later find out that a high-maintenance dog doesn't fit into their lifestyle or that it is going to require expensive medical care. 

If your friends have their hearts set on puppies, we can point them to rescues that often have puppies available for adoption - just ask!


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Just don't breed her, please. 

Dogs are meant to be bred to improve the breed - which means showing the dogs and breeding the best, to try and get puppies better than their parents. 

I really really hope you listen to the replies you have gotten and do a bit more research and discover the truth about "maltipoo's" and other "designer breeds".


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## Debi (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't know if a decision has been reached or not, so wanted to throw my two cents in. There are so many well meaning owners out there that want to breed their dogs because theirs is so cute, and have family/friends that want one.......etc......... 

We have heard just about every excuse there is as to why a dog is being surrendered. Are you prepared for the new owners to possibly not want their new pups after seeing how much work they are? That they may not get along with the children, or the children may not get along with them? It will change their lives totally, may not be able to travel, the expense of their care, the list goes on. We can get caught up in the "cute" factor, but at the end of the day when reality sets in, it's a whole different ballgame.

I actually tried to help save a fella named Dylon, he lived in CA. We were contacted that the family was going to kill him because he bit the teenage son. This dog was 4 years old, they had not had any trouble out of him and then suddenly the dog is vicious enough to kill? We all know what happened, the teenager teased/tormented the poor thing and then did the only thing he knew to defend himself, he bit the punk kid. I BEGGED the owner to let me help but they didn't listen and now Dylon is in heaven, for what reason?

I had another lady that contacted SCMR that the allergies her dog had was driving her crazy and wanted to know what to do..........???? I tried to help her and again begged her to let SCMR help her baby, only to find out later that she took the easy way out and killed her. I found out when I called to check on the dog and how she was doing only to be told "I can't talk about it, it is to upsetting".......now this poor beautiful little one is in heaven.

_As a Maltese Rescue, this is what we share:_
_We strongly urge you to reconsider breeding your baby. The most obvious reason for spaying your little girl is to prevent adding to the pet overpopulation problem. It is a shame to bring more dogs into the world when so many are dying in shelters. There are other real benefits to spaying relating to the health of your pet._

_Spaying this little girl eliminates great physical stress which pregnancy causes. Complications can occur which would require a caesarian section or even death of the mother during the birthing. Spaying also eliminates:_
_*Males in abundance while the female is in heat _
_*Spotting during the heat period _
_*False pregnancies _
_*Mammary tumors (less than 1% incidence in animals spayed before their first heat, versus higher than 50% incidence in intact female dogs over 5 years of age) _
_*Uterine infections (increasingly common with age; often life-threatening) _
_*Tumors of the ovaries or uterus _
_*Stress, leading to increased susceptibility to disease_
_*In female dogs, heat periods occur twice a year and last about 3 weeks each time. *During heat, the dog will be more irritable and nervous than usual, and may even become aggressive and damage furniture or attack strangers. _

_By spaying your pet you can increase her lifespan._

_We hope that you will reconsider breeding your little one, and join us instead in saving the lives of animals in need._

The note about the mammary tumors is real and very serious, if you could see these it could help, these tumors can be on the outside and can grow to be as big as a mans fist (for a small 5 pound dog they can be hugh looking)! They can be both cancer and benign, one thing is for certain, they look horrible, they have to be very painful for the dog and itcan be an expensive surgery to remove them, not including the risks of surgery.......

This is a very delicate subject, with advocates being on both sides of the fence. So I am only speaking from the side of not breeding and for all the furkids in shelters that are killed daily............ADOPT a shelter dog instead.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I agree with all said!! It is too risky to breed your female. The folks here are very knowledgeable and are only trying to protect you and your dog.. I hope you will take their advice..:huh:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> You are right, every breeder has to start somewhere. I just had my own first litter. My personal start came after owning and loving this breed for 20 years. I have been involved in rescue, obedience, therapy work, showing in conformation. I have attended breeding seminars, read literally hundreds of books, and worked with several more experienced breeders in the process, including witnessing birth of other toy breed dogs. Yes, I may be an extreme example of how long the commitment should be before deciding to undertake breeding, but frankly the point is that there are those who start somewhere and those who start after careful consideration and a demonstrated commitment to learning what it means to be a Breeder before actually becoming one.
> 
> You came to a great place here. The folks around here love their dogs and they are willing to share about them. You came to this forum where people tend to feel strongly about breeder ethics.
> 
> If you seriously want to be a breeder, and get your start somewhere, we have a few experienced breeders who are members who may be able to offer their assistance if you are willing to demonstrate that commitment to learning what it means to be a knowledgeable and ethical breeder.


:goodpost:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

I normally would stay clear of a thread like this..... but aren't you afraid of losing your sweet maltese??? Your male is too big for her! Personally, I'd be scared to death :w00t:


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

Mr. Maltese said:


> There is a *4lb *difference between the Maltese and Maltipoo. The pic was taken when the Maltese was younger.
> 
> The pups *will not* be going to shelters, they are spoken for from very responsible people.
> 
> ...


You are not a breeder:angry:breeders show and are concerned about the breed. Breeders do not mix breeds:angry:Your friends can find wonderful dogs that need homes in the shelters, rescue or petfinder:thumbsup:


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

It's one thing to breed a bitch to a male that is a little bigger, but I would never breed to a male that was almost twice my bitch's size. Your male is way too big for your bitch. If you breed them, you may get lucky but things could go terribly wrong as well. Why take the risk?

I have a good friend that shows and is knowledgeable about breeding...she lost a bitch after a C-section two years ago and it absolutely devestated her. She also lost all but one puppy out of that litter, and she had to bottle raise that puppy. Things can and often do go wrong when you breed, and sometimes the bitch can even die..it really does happen...so it's something to think about.

I also agree with what those have said before about contributing to the pet overpopulation and breeding mixed breed dogs...I do not agree with just breeding to breed and certainly don't agree with breeding a mixed breed dog or even a pet quality purebred. I really hope you'll spay and neuter your pets and help your friends and family find puppies through a rescue, shelter, or reputable breeder.


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## mfa (Oct 5, 2009)

elly said:


> You are not a breeder:angry:breeders show and are concerned about the breed. Breeders do not mix breeds:angry:Your friends can find wonderful dogs that need homes in the shelters, rescue or petfinder:thumbsup:




:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't know much about breeding but I will add what I just experienced. We have a pet store in my area that sells in-tact mixed breeds. A co-worker of mine purchase a yorkiepoo about 1 year ago. The dog was breed on it's second heat to a maltipoo owned by her friend. Sadly, my co-worker lot her yorkiepoo three weeks ago when there were pregnancy complications and the vet could not save her dog due to severe internal bleeding. The puppies were not viable. She was devistated as were her two teenage children. I pleaded with her not to breed because she simply wasn't educated enough and I was concerned, based on what I have learned on this forum, that the risks were great. Her dog weighed 6 pounds and the male weighed 8 pounds.


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## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

*Are you for real?*



elly said:


> You are not a breeder:angry:breeders show and are concerned about the breed. Breeders do not mix breeds:angry:Your friends can find wonderful dogs that need homes in the shelters, rescue or petfinder:thumbsup:


This is probably the stupidest post I've ever read.

Many current recognized breeds are a result of breeders years ago mixing breeds and then perfecting the mix to suit a certain task or quality or look.

While I love the Maltese, the addition of a poodle to the mix gives it a unique and very endearing personality for someone who wants the traits of the Maltese along with the more adventurous and free spitited characteristics of the poodle.

Dont hate on the MaltiMixes

oh and how many of members here got their dog from a rescue or shelter? Did you?


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Mr. Maltese said:


> This is probably the stupidest post I've ever read.
> 
> Many current recognized breeds are a result of breeders years ago mixing breeds and then perfecting the mix to suit a certain task or quality or look.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure you had already decided to breed your dogs before you came here and asked your question. I can see you don't like the responses you've gotten as they conflict with your wanting to breed your pets together. It really saddens me when people breed irresponsibly, but I've learned that people are going to do what they want to do... I do hope you'll reconsider but I am pretty sure you've already made up your mind to breed them. So good luck...really hope you have no serious complications, that the puppies are healthy, and that they find loving forever homes.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Mr. Maltese said:


> This is probably the stupidest post I've ever read.
> 
> Many current recognized breeds are a result of breeders years ago mixing breeds and then perfecting the mix to suit a certain task or quality or look.
> 
> ...


A: There is no need to call anyone or their posts stupid. 

B: I don't think anyone here has a thing against mixed-breed dogs. They just do not approve of the folks who deliberately breed mixes. Especially those who purport to know what they will get as a result. You can not frankly know that you will get the traits you desire when you mix two breeds. You for instance, can never assume that you will get a "more adventurous free spirited poodle nature." There is no reason to suppose that the poodle characteristic you are highlighting here would breed any more true than the Maltese personality would. This is a basic misunderstanding of genetics. The Maltese breed has been around for thousands of years. It is not a recent creation. 

C: I don't get the relevancy question about how many of us have gotten our dogs from rescue. But out of the Maltese, I have owned in the last 20 years 4 of them have come from rescue and the other 4 have come from a Breeder. I also have fostered more than 30 Maltese. We have a number of members on this forum who have adopted through rescue and some who are active and frequent foster moms.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

The only thing about being a pet owner is my love for my dog and that I would do anything to keep him safe. It sounds to me like that's not paramount in your mind. I pray that you don't lose your little one by mating her to a too large male to satisfy some selfish need to give other people dogs or whatever reason you have, And all this while other mixed breed dogs will be euthanized in shelters. But I agree with the last post. Sounds like you really didn't want an opinion here and will do whatever you want no matter who pays the price.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

How will your friends feel when they get a pup that has illnesses or allergies due to lack of study of pedigrees on BOTH sides? Anyone can stick two dogs together. If you don't want to hear intelligent information, then leave us out of it and don't ask again.


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## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

You people do know that the Maltese *originated* from breeding poodle and small spaniels dont you?

Yes MIXING breeds.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Mr. Maltese said:


> You people do know that the Maltese *originated* from breeding poodle and small spaniels dont you?
> 
> Yes MIXING breeds.


Having read just about every single book there is about Maltese, I think you do not have your facts straight here. Maltese did not originate from poodles. Nor is there any proof (although some theories have claimed it) that Maltese are spaniel in origin. The reality is, though that the larger point of this discussion has very little to do with the mixing of the two breeds. 

I am curious why you came to our forum to ask your question? Why did you not go to your veterinarian? Or why did you not go back to the breeder of your own dogs? What made you seek out advice from us? 

If it was to learn, then hopefully you can read this forum a bit more, ask some more questions, but if, as it appears, you came here with your mind made up and just to argue why you are right, then I think you have spent enough time with us.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Mr. Maltese said:


> You people do know that the Maltese *originated* from breeding poodle and small spaniels dont you?
> 
> Yes MIXING breeds.


I also want to add that you are not 'trying' to create a new breed here, you are just trying to justify breeding a maltese to a malti-poo. Big difference. 

I agree with Carina - you do not want our help - it seems like you just wanted to be told that it was ok to breed your girl. Well, IMO, it's not ok - not to such a larger male.


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## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

Every reputable history of the Maltese references mixing spaniels and poodle blood.

Every current breed is the result of mixing.

The fact remains that dogs bred within their breed have more health issues not less.

Regarless, my concern was the health of my Maltese and not teaching an unenlightened dog clique about how dog breeds evolve.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Mr. Maltese said:


> Every reputable history of the Maltese references mixing spaniels and poodle blood.
> 
> Every current breed is the result of mixing.
> 
> ...


And many of us answered your question. 

No one is arguing that purebreds weren't created by mixing - but that is not what you are doing. You are not trying to create a new breed. 

If by unenlightened, you mean not indulging ourselves in irresponsible breeding practices, then yes - I think I'll stay unenlightened.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

:smilie_tischkante::smpullhair::beating a dead hors


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Cosy said:


> :smilie_tischkante::smpullhair::beating a dead hors


I can't tell you how much I appreciate the new members who come on here and actually listen to what is being said - and realize that breeding their pets isn't in the dogs best interest. Unfortunately, they seem few and fair between and typically, the posts go in this fashion - with the OP becoming hostile


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Today on Petfinder there are 1160 Maltese and Maltese mixed dogs available. How about suggesting to your friends that they adopt one of these precious dogs (and some puppies too) before we bring anymore into the world?

I got my first Malt from someone like you. A well intentioned back yard breeder. She had adorable dogs that she bred because she wanted puppies. She had no clue about how to choose dogs to breed by really knowing the pedigree. So, consequently, my Lola has an incurable neurological disorder, and I have no idea how long she may live. i do know that i have spent a small fortune to treat her. Are your prospective puppy owners willing to go to that extent should it be necessary?

I came here to learn more about Maltese, and now know that my dealing with the back yard breeder was a tremendous mistake. My sweet girl will not lead a long healty life. Are you prepared to possible deal with any genetic time bombs you may be crating? Just think about it. Your dog will lead a long and happy life without ever having to procreate to please you.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Mr. Maltese said:


> This is probably the stupidest post I've ever read.
> 
> Many current recognized breeds are a result of breeders years ago mixing breeds and then perfecting the mix to suit a certain task or quality or look.
> 
> ...


I'll refrain from using the word stupid because it's really uncalled for. But it's the person lacking a basic knowledge of genetics who believes that a puppy born of a sire of one breed and dam of another breed is guaranteed to inherit certain traits from one and certain traits from the other. If that were the case then why don't human offspring get slenderness from one parent and perfect eyesight from the other? Or straight hair from one and olive skin from the other? Or quick wit from one and a high IQ from the other. Believing that any offspring inherits only the desirable traits from one parent or the other is ... s#%$&*d.


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

What's to say that the pups won't inherit Progressive Retinal Atrophy or Cushings Disease from the Poodle side? And Liver Shunt or Patella Sub-luxation from the Maltese side? Or a combination of the above...

Its been stated that the male is too large.
To explain this further:
Are you aware of the _male's sire and dam_?
What if they were, for example, a 13 pound Poodle dam and a 7 pound Maltese sire.
And the future pups take after the Poodle in size? 
And your Maltese is _5 pounds_?!


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## Mr. Maltese (May 26, 2011)

Sperm banks generally dont feature sperm from men with poor physical and financial attributes.

I really can not believe that y'all don't understand that breeders search for desirable characteristics from bitch and sire to attempt to further the qualities of the *pups or breed*.

Regardless we can be thankful that breeders a thousand years ago had the intelligence to breed Spaniels and Poodle to create the Maltese and breeders of Maltese over time have taken the best characteristics from prime specimens to further the breed.:thumbsup:


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

Mr. Maltese said:


> Sperm banks generally dont feature sperm from men with poor physical and financial attributes.
> 
> *I really can not believe that y'all don't understand that breeders search for desirable characteristics from bitch and sire to attempt to further the qualities of the pups or breed.*
> 
> Regardless we can be thankful that breeders a thousand years ago had the intelligence to breed Spaniels and Poodle to create the Maltese and breeders of Maltese over time have taken the best characteristics from prime specimens to further the breed.:thumbsup:


Yes, we do understand that! 
If a member is posting here about breeding,
we expect that they are referring to a great example of the breed.
And we are very happy for their successes.

We have a few members here who show and breed dogs.
Their dogs are shown and some are Champions!
They have passed a huge ammount of health tests.
They have their pedigree, a treasure trove of information.
They have good temperments, and some have passed the Canine Good Citizen exam.

Now compare the above criteria to my salvaged crew, darling dears ones _who no fault of their own_ have allergies, luxatating patellas, and most detrimental of all, an _organic mood disorder_.
But they have to live with this as those who should have cared or known better, didn't care or didn't listen.


Honestly if you want to breed so badly, you have a choice, now:
Which kind of breeder do you want to emulate??


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## socalyte (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm sorry you are disappointed in our responses to your questions about the safety of breeding your small girl to a male twice her size. As others have said, you appear to want validation of you decision, and haven't received that here. If you've read through this forum at all you'd realize that we are passionate about Maltese, and their safety, health and happiness are of prime importance to everyone here. It's too bad you won't accept the information we're giving you and acknowledge that your little girl will potentially be in mortal danger should she be bred to a dog so much bigger than her. 

Even with the best of intentions and excellent knowledge of your lines you can get an unexpected outcome. It is a calculated risk, and one serious breeders take into consideration when deciding to breed their dogs for the betterment of the breed. It appears that you may not have complete information on the background, health and size of the parents of the two dogs you want to breed-- are you willing to risk your dog's health and that of her puppies? 

My puppy Cozette is a prime example. Both parents were champions, with excellent lineage, yet Cozette has hip dysplasia that required one surgery and she may possibly need another. The surgery and subsequent physical therapy have cost me thousands, on top of the premium price I paid for her in the first place. It's been heartbreaking to go through this with her, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. 

So, you've now gotten plenty of responses to your question, and the decision is ultimately yours. Unfortunately your sweet little dog, who depends on you for everything, doesn't have that choice.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Mr. Maltese said:


> Regardless we can be thankful that breeders a thousand years ago had the intelligence to breed Spaniels and Poodle to create the Maltese and breeders of Maltese over time have taken the best characteristics from prime specimens to further the breed.:thumbsup:
> 
> Every reputable history of the Maltese references mixing spaniels and poodle blood.
> 
> ...


 :smilie_tischkante: 

I would love to know what you consider to be reputable sources. But your original quote which I argued with contended that Maltese ORIGINATED from poodles and spaniels. 

I replied that I have read just about every Maltese history out there and can say Maltese did not originate with poodles (since poodles are not considered by experts to be as ancient as a breed) and the spaniel thing is only a theory and not a fully accepted one. Since you think your expertise is greater than mine, I would love to be enlightened on what sources you think you have that are so much more reputable than the ones I have studied. (By the way, one of my degrees is in history, so this is truly something academic for me.) 

Charles Darwin himself claimed the breed existed as long ago as 6000 BC. Since his time models of Maltese type dogs have been found that predate his estimation by 2000 years. (Maltese by Juliette Cunliffe, Kennel Club Books). 

Just for a sampling of some of the sources I have read on the subject

Vicky Abbott- Maltese: Diminutive Aristocrat and A New Owners Guide to Maltese
Diane Morgan- The Maltese
Robert J. Berndt- Your Maltese
Juliette Cunliffe- Maltese
Nicholas Cuttillo- The Complete Maltese
Anna Katherine Nicholas- The Maltese
Vicki Herrieff- The Maltese Today  

These are the books sitting next to me on my shelf now; I have read each of these sources multiple times and have read a great number of other texts and articles on the subject. So now, do you want to tell me that what I have read is "not reputable" whereas your supposed sources have greater access to the "truth" ? 

I think several people here offered you genuine concern for your dog and for your own feelings should anything happen to her. Instead of listening to their concerns and the heartfelt advice, you have chosen to call folks ignorant and unenlightened. This brings to mind an old saying my grandmother used to use about pots and kettles and the color black.


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## Luna'sMom (Oct 7, 2007)

Mr. Maltese said:


> This is probably the stupidest post I've ever read.
> 
> Many current recognized breeds are a result of breeders years ago mixing breeds and then perfecting the mix to suit a certain task or quality or look.
> 
> ...


Your post displays a significant ignorance of the underlying genetics behind dog breeding. 

Maltese poodle crosses are "lucky dips" - they don't get "this part from the maltese" and "this part from the poodle"...genetics doesn't work like that. 

Personally there are OVER 300 purebred dog breeds in the world - more than enough to choose from. 

The "designer dog" craze started becasue people don't realise that a "maltipoo" is just a Maltese cross Poodle... F1 generations only. They are not breeding for specific traits, they are not selecting for a specific personality or shape or size or anything. It's just mixing of two breeds to bring in the $$$. 

You may want to be a breeder but with that attitude you will only ever be a byb. If you want to be a responsible breeder do some research and reading - figure out what you want to breed for and which breed. Then get the quality dogs to start out your program. 

Don't play genetic lottery with your dogs "just because you can", it is selfish, think of your poor Maltese that may well suffer serious consequences from the pregnancy and birth and the resulting puppies which might well harbor genetic diseases such as PRA (which are highly prevalent in poodles) or luxating patellas. 

If you do end up breeding please get both the parents checked out by a vet AND do any genetic testing possible (i.e. PRA).


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## Luna'sMom (Oct 7, 2007)

Another thing - alot of breeds were created by artificial selection and not the "mixing of breeds" as you seem to think. 

Artificial selection is where a human selects for certain traits i.e. breeds the 2 dogs with the shortest muzzle in each generation. This is actually how ALOT of breeds were created - particularly the more ancient ones. 

There is alot of scientific literature on the domestication and origin of dogs. I have read alot of it during my PhD study.


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

Mr. Maltese - you asked a question and got the answer to the specific question (any risk for my maltese to breed). As some said, your male is big for the female; there is great risk. I don't see a point from arguing after getting an answer 0.o I assume if someone asked a question, he/she doesn't know the answer to? you asked and you got the answer. why argue the answer that you received? lol I just don't get it - only if you clearly had your answer before asking. why ask if you did have your own answer?

if I were you I would listen to what was said for the benefit of your precious fluffs.


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

CloudClan said:


> I am curious why you came to our forum to ask your question? Why did you not go to your veterinarian? Or why did you not go back to the breeder of your own dogs? What made you seek out advice from us?
> 
> If it was to learn, then hopefully you can read this forum a bit more, ask some more questions, *but if, as it appears, you came here with your mind made up and just to argue why you are right, then I think you have spent enough time with us.*


I am wondering about that too. interesting ...and sad really.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

pammy4501 said:


> Today on Petfinder there are 1160 Maltese and Maltese mixed dogs available. How about suggesting to your friends that they adopt one of these precious dogs (and some puppies too) before we bring anymore into the world?
> 
> I got my first Malt from someone like you. A well intentioned back yard breeder. She had adorable dogs that she bred because she wanted puppies. She had no clue about how to choose dogs to breed by really knowing the pedigree. So, consequently, my Lola has an incurable neurological disorder, and I have no idea how long she may live. i do know that i have spent a small fortune to treat her. Are your prospective puppy owners willing to go to that extent should it be necessary?
> 
> I came here to learn more about Maltese, and now know that my dealing with the back yard breeder was a tremendous mistake. My sweet girl will not lead a long healty life. Are you prepared to possible deal with any genetic time bombs you may be crating? Just think about it. Your dog will lead a long and happy life without ever having to procreate to please you.


This is what happened to me as well. Beautiful puppy from someone who did not know what they were doing, sadly my Ellie only lived to be 5, she would have died at just 3 had I not found a Doctor willing to take her on and fiqure out how to treat her. I ended up spending alot of money, she had a good quality of life with us, we had our hearts broken. Here one SM we care abouts the dogs.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

Mr. Maltese said:


> This is probably the stupidest post I've ever read.
> 
> Many current recognized breeds are a result of breeders years ago mixing breeds and then perfecting the mix to suit a certain task or quality or look.
> 
> ...


My maltese Ellie that died came from a breeder like you:angry:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> :smilie_tischkante:
> 
> I would love to know what you consider to be reputable sources. But your original quote which I argued with contended that Maltese ORIGINATED from poodles and spaniels.
> 
> ...


 
 Bravo! :aktion033::aktion033: :goodpost:


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

OP you asked if there was a risk/danger to your little Maltese if bred to the larger male.... the answer is YES! With all the other arguements aside ( which I agree with with BTW) it seems this should be the bottom line in your decision.
Do you not love her enough to want to prevent any danger to her????!! I assumed you do to have asked in the first place. Oversized pups, even if only one in the litter, could be a terrible risk to her! I pray you love her enough to not breed her to the large male as you stated. Keep in mind should you go ahead and something happens to her and/or the pups, it will be something you'll have to live with the rest of your life. I know I sure would not want to live with that guilt.


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## TheCozyPet (May 5, 2011)

If it was my own opinion, I would not breed her. My little Bambi was from a shelter, a lonely and homeless little puppy looking for a forever home. The person who left their pregnant Maltese to a shelter because they were moving somewhere was the owner of Bambi's mother.

A lot of our little Maltese friends are looking for a home. I'm sure your friends could help them. I'm not a pro when it comes to these kinds of these things but I have read about complications when it comes to dog pregnancy with much larger males, aside from that you may not know the exact history and lineage of both of your pups so it would be hard to consider.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Even under the best of circumstances,both parents being the same size,a 4 pound female is small and at risk during pregnancy. Breeding is a risk for any female,reguardless of size...
I understand the temptation. When we had our Amy,a gorgeous 14 pound ,black cocker spaniel. Size wise,she wasn't standard,but she was a perfect replica in miniature...even though there is no miniature cocker.

We loved her sooo much and she was so gorgeous,fabulous personality and so smart (not biased are we?),most every cocker owner and breeder who saw her commented on her. 

We thought about breeding her so we could have another like her. Friends wanted us to breed her so they could have one like her. We had one woman offer us a very significant amount of money for a pup from her.

We just couldn't take the risk,to her health. No guarantees any of the pups would be as petite as Amy ,or her personality or as beautiful.

We miss her very much and wish at times we'd had a pup from her,but she was unique and special and we miss her every day...but we couldn't risk her health,not for friends or family.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

I thought i would add my 2 cents just cause i'm the mother of 2 "smaller" sized maltese on the board...

My first maltese is 3lbs and he was bred from a back yard breeder that just wanted tiny off spring... how do i know this..? THEY TOLD ME! :brownbag:
They bred a 4lb female maltese with a 2lb male maltese.
Needless to say the smallest puppy died at birth, the next biggest had health issues and died at 6month, and i have the largest puppy... and he has a BUNCH of health issues! I love my little guy to death but i have to say it becomes so expensive when you have a puppy with congential defects. With that being said... I researched like crazy for my next pup... i purchased her from a WELL known show breeder. She was given to me because she was tooooooo small for breeding and showing! AND usually show breeders REQUIRE that you spay the dog... but she told me if i didnt feel comfortable with that because of her size... she was okay with me not spaying her because of the risk with her size. I still did the spay cause i felt confident with my doctors performing the surgery. My point is... My little girl even though she is also 3lbs... her body parts are soo manch smaller than my little boys (and they are the same weight!). I personally think that the size difference even if its 3lbs or 4lbs is ALOT to a smaller maltese... when we go to the docs and one of mine loses weight even if its just 1/2lb is A LOT!! The smaller a dog is the more drastic even a pound can be to their tiny bodies! If you had a sire that was in the same weight range I wouldnt be so negative about the idea of breeding them... but seriously even 3lbs difference when the dog is only 5lbs is A LOT. And my other point... female maltese seem to have smaller body parts/organs than a male that is the same weight. 
best of luck to you... my recommendation if you really want to breed your sire... maybe get another maltese (or another breed) that is larger. 

another thing to think about..
Other members have some other valid points too about knowing what your breeding with genetics, etc..


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

I never understand when a person comes to a forum and ASKS for advice and then wants to argue with the advice given to them.

The OP's question was "Is there anything to be concerned about or is this a safe match?"

Most seem to be answering that YES there is a concern and NO it is not a safe match (for many various reasons). So I think the OP has their answer. The fact that they are getting defensive and argueing with the advice/opinions given makes me wonder why the question was even asked in the first place...


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Mr. Maltese said:


> There is a *4lb *difference between the Maltese and Maltipoo. The pic was taken when the Maltese was younger.
> 
> The pups *will not* be going to shelters, they are spoken for from very responsible people.
> 
> ...



You have gotten advice from some of the most intelligent and reputable breeders there are. I wonder why you don't have the ability to understand that no matter what size there can always be complications. You may have money but there are some complications that money can't fix. 

You would absolutely be contributing to the overpopulation crisis. And for every puppy your dog has it will take away the chance for a pound dog to be saved. 

You may not be ignorant, just selfish and unkind to risk the life of your dog, as well as being indirectly responsible for the deaths of 2 or 3 shelter dogs (depending on how many would be in your dog's litter).


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## mommatee (Jul 20, 2010)

socalyte said:


> So, you've now gotten plenty of responses to your question, and the decision is ultimately yours. Unfortunately your sweet little dog, who depends on you for everything, doesn't have that choice.


This is so true and makes me very sad! :crying:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

myfairlacy said:


> I never understand when a person comes to a forum and ASKS for advice and then wants to argue with the advice given to them.
> 
> The OP's question was "Is there anything to be concerned about or is this a safe match?"
> 
> Most seem to be answering that YES there is a concern and NO it is not a safe match (for many various reasons). So I think the OP has their answer. The fact that they are getting defensive and argueing with the advice/opinions given makes me wonder why the question was even asked in the first place...


Michele -- this is exactly why I didn't put in my 2 cents worth. I thought -- "what's the point". I think the OP had made up her mind prior to asking the question. SAD!!!


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

Me thinks me smell something rotten... A troll, perhaps???? When a new poster asks a question and then responds as this one has, I can't help but be suspicious of the real purpose.


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## mfa (Oct 5, 2009)

to the OP, you have gotten the best, most knowledgeable answers to your question but keep arguing.:blink:

really hope its not too late for you to do the right thing! spay her now, let your friends adopt any of the many sweet babies out there that truly need loving homes.:thumbsup:


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## CharmingDior (May 19, 2011)

*Maybe repetition will help*



CharmingDior said:


> I think you should listen to the more experienced people who have already posted to your thread.
> 
> I want to be honest and not rude...so here goes:blush::
> 
> ...



You really are being combative right off... to me that speaks volumes. I can't help but think you had already came to a conclusion and just wanted to get under others skin. 

No one has the incentive to be mean or cruel. We are only here to help. Take it or leave it, but for the sake of your pet I pray you take it!

*Proverbs 10:14 (NLT)
Wise people treasure knowledge, but the babbling of a fool invites disaster.*


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

The OP seems to have gone. I don't know if they were really seeking advice or just trying to stir the pot. Anyone who spends more that 5 minutes on this site has to have an idea how the general consensus is on BYB and Mixed breeds. 

If not, then OP you will never hear from us that what you are proposing is ever going to be ok.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

The scary part is even if the male is 3 pounds bigger than the female ,he's a mix of poodle,he could have a larger relative in his background that could come through in the pups,resulting in tragedy for the female...


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

Mr. Maltese said:


> This is probably the stupidest post I've ever read.
> 
> Many current recognized breeds are a result of breeders years ago mixing breeds and then perfecting the mix to suit a certain task or quality or look.
> 
> ...



My Hunter came from our local shelter. We were his second adopting family because the first couldn't handle his needs. He is likely a mixed breed Maltese. In the first year he cost us over $2000 in medical expenses. He has chronic ear infections, double valve heart murmurs, and has had to have many of his teeth removed. He also has bowel issues. I would not change a thing about him as I love him very much but it hurts to see him in pain sometimes and it's painful to know that one day his medical issues will require me to let him go. He is just one example of poor breeding.


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## RaeRae (Apr 16, 2011)

Mr. Maltese said:


> There is a *4lb *difference between the Maltese and Maltipoo. The pic was taken when the Maltese was younger.
> 
> The pups *will not* be going to shelters, they are spoken for from very responsible people.
> 
> ...



You say 4 lbs like it's nothing. Considering your baby girl is only 5lbs you have to understand that the maltipoo almost TWICE her size. :/ Instead of seeing it as a "4lb difference", see it as a 2x difference. :/


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## gypsyqueen (Nov 9, 2008)

Im dont breed but I think if you want to breed your girl you should want to produce the best quality possible you should fix your male and look to rent a good quality stud that is smaller and whos parents were small so birth can be easier on your little girl.


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

it infuriates me when someone asks for advice and they get it , and then they want to argue about it ... grrr . im just going to pray for that lil malt.


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