# I'm new, my Maltese baby died, need to find a great, reputable breeder PLEASE READ



## ParisandRio

Hello,
I was the very happy mother to Bijoux, an 8 month old AKC registered Maltese whom we purchased from a lady who seemed to have a very good, small breeding program in the DFW Texas area. Our boy's parents had 72 champions in their 5 generation pedigrees between them.. We thought we were getting the best possible puppy. And we loved him with all our hearts, and still do. 
Our baby boy died of an inherited disease 4 months ago. We are ready to try to fill our empty nest, although no baby can *replace* him.. everyone knows how that works. 

We are looking for a breeder with a very strong show program who occasionally has puppies for sale under a spay/ neuter contract. The puppy must be as close to the Maltese standard as possible.. we do not want bite problems, long noses or legs, a thin or curly coat, etc. even though we aren't going to breed this dog or any other we might have. 

It is very important to us to be able to see the puppy in his natural enbironment and preferably to see his dam. We do not expect the sire to be on premises. Both sire and dam should be finished AKC champions, with bloodlines full of champions from well-known programs. 

*Health matters a great deal to us* *after what we went through with our little boy's breeder who quietly folded up shop and went out of business when her sold puppies started manifesting a liver disorder which kills most adolescents.*

I am lost, not knowing where to go. I know about the AMA site, but I am not convinced that their list is " the Bible" list for all great breeding programs. 

Any help is apppreciated. Price is NOT a concern. Quality, and extreme ethcis are. Thank you for reading., and thank you very much if you can help us find a little boy, probably after the holidays. We are not trying to " get a puppy for Christmas".. He will be our child. 
Lilly


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum

Im very sorry to hear of your loss. So sad, at such a young age.

I think you will find many here who will be able to offer advice & suggestions. (I'm no help here sorry, I'm in Australia!)

Good luck in your search!


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## elly

I am so sorry for your loss, I also lost a maltese to Liver disease, she was just 5. My little girl Ellie was also from the DFW area. 

Cathy


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## SpringHasSprung

We got our little Summer from Pashes Maltese in Texas. I would definitely recommend them. I believe there are other really good breeders in Texas as well that others could refer you to. I'm so very sorry you went through such a horrible loss. Best of luck to you in finding the perfect baby for you.


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## The A Team

I hope you find many good breeders here on SM. The only one I have experience with is Bonnie Palmer....Bonnie's Angels....maybe Bonnie can help you I hope you find the love of your life here....


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## lovingmal

I am so sorry for the unexpected loss of your little one. It is such a heart breaker and so hard to recovery from. ;( Isn't Rhapsody in TX also? 

Also, as this is a forum and some may benefit from sharing info, are you able to disclose which breeder it was? I know my Rudy has some TX breeders in his line (some that are no longer showing) and I would be very interested to know for his sake...


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## Starsmom

I am so very sorry for your loss. Like many here I too know what you are feeling. The loss of a fluff is devastating no matter the circumstances.

Are you located in the DFW area? There are many reputable breeders located in TX. Would you be willing to travel out of the DFW area or the state?

You are aware of the AMA breeders list, and there also is a list that was posted here on SM. It was compiled by a breeder/member (Tina) with input from other SM members -USA BREEDER'S

The 2011 AMA National Speciality is being held in the DFW area - it would be a great opportunity for you to meet breeders there - however, it is after your target date. 
2010 AMA Speciality , 2011 AMA National Specialty Update 

Here are some other helpful threads to assist you in your search:
MALTESE BREEDERS - How to find and evaluate
Breeders Health Guarantee

I am happy you found us before you started your search for your healthy baby. :Welcome 4: Again, I am so sorry for your loss.


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## Sandcastles

I, too, am very sorry for your loss - that is a terrible thing to go through.


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## Cosy

Welcome to SM! I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope you can find that special pup soon. Rhapsody and Pashes are the ones that come to mind here in or close to the DFW area.


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## Snowbody

Lilly, please accept my sympathy. It's especially heartbreaking to lose a little one like that. I'm so sorry for the pain you had to go through. I know you're going to find a wonderful pup to fill the emptiness in your hear, though you'll never forget Bijoux. 
I have had experience with Rhapsody since my Tyler was son of Chills-N-Thrills, co-bred by by Rhapsody and Chrisman. He is amazing and having just gone for his first year check up and getting a bile acid test done, he passed with flying colors. I would suggest checking on finding out if a breeder ran that test on the pup you are thinking of getting to know more about liver function after your past experience. There is a ton of info on this site to get info about looking for reputable breeders, contracts, medical issues, etc. Welcome and hope we can be of help.
I don't have first hand experience with Pashes, but a Malt I petsit and what helped me fall in love wit the breed has Pashes in his line and he's beautiful, sweet and smart. Good luck.


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## mysugarbears

Lilly i am so sorry for your loss.:grouphug: Two that come to mind is Pahes and Rhapsody and i have heard nothing but good things from these breeders and they have gorgeous malts. :wub: Unfortunately you cannot always go by the AMA breeders list and please always do your homework and ask tons of questions and then ask again before you decide no matter how reputable the breeder may be.


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## kathym

I am very sorry for your loss..


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## ParisandRio

*Thank you all so much!! *

The need to love a little one is so strong.. The websites I have looked at tonight are beautiful, as are the dogs, both grown and puppies. I know we have to take our time this time, especially. If anyone here has beautiful happy healthy Malts from breeding programs in the DFW area, please post what you are able to according to the site guidelines. I don't know what is allowable to say quite yet. 

Let me allay some fears, if I may. To the best of my knowledge, the person in N. Texas who sold us Bijoux was NOT in business long enough to ever have a strong enough breeding program for her dogs to show up in ANY other breeder's pedigrees. She was a " dog hoarder". We found this out quite by accident. Her house was stacked full of adult dogs in cage on top of cage, but they were hidden behind closed doors. 

Yes, other puppies which she sold have had the same liver problems .I have talked to some of their heartbroken humans too. All of our dogs were quite young, too young to breed, and all were sold with a spay/ neuter contract. The only possible repercussion in the future is if she sold intact dogs with a genetic defect to another breeder when she got scared due to this heriditary problem and immediately shut down. It is believed by some whom she stayed friendly with that she sold all of her breeding stock, but possibly also with spay/ neuter contracts. None of us know exactly what happened to the adult dogs she hoarded. It is quite unlikely that a strong reputable name breeding program would purchase her dogs because they lacked name recognition.

I cannot post the person's name or the name of her kennel because her daughter in law posts on many Maltese forums. Although I have done nothing at all wrong, I am too upset to deal with indignation or anger from a person who should be contrite and extremely sorry. Not with a disconnected phone, and with email bouncing. 

I have lived though sad. I know sad. I am so ready for good, quality, happy. Yes, we are available to travel within Texas for a puppy for those who asked. Oklahoma would not be out of the question but we would prefer to deal with someone in our state because we are probably going to need a bit more... not sure of the word... *help*.. in selecting another puppy and having confidence that he or she is healthy. Being here is very helpful to me. Thank you!!


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## Rocky's Mom

I am so so sorry for your loss. I could not imagine how painful that is. My dear sweet Rocky is from a breeder in Texas. I think she could have been a puppy mill. I have learned so much from SM, that I would never repeat that again. I am hoping and praying my boy lives a long healthy life, but one never knows. Here you thought you were getting a healthy dog. Again, I am so sorry. Welcome to SM...you will find great friends here with so much knowledge. Blessings!


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## Ladysmom

I am so sorry for your devastating loss. We have other members on SM who have tragically lost Maltese they unknowingly purchased from backyard breeders. 

As the others have said, Rhapsody and Pashes are wonderful. If you are willing to go to Oklahoma, Tajon is also has a wonderful reputation.


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## Cosy

It sounds like your breeder may have been selling a lot more pups than you realised if she was hoarding dogs.
Liver Shunt is a problem in the Maltese breed and a very sad thing to go thru with a little one.


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## Matilda's mommy

I'm so sorry on your loss


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## Starsmom

ParisandRio said:


> The need to love a little one is so strong.. The websites I have looked at tonight are beautiful, as are the dogs, both grown and puppies. I know we have to take our time this time, especially. If anyone here has beautiful happy healthy Malts from breeding programs in the DFW area, please post what you are able to according to the site guidelines. I don't know what is allowable to say quite yet.
> 
> Let me allay some fears, if I may. To the best of my knowledge, the person in N. Texas who sold us Bijoux was NOT in business long enough to ever have a strong enough breeding program for her dogs to show up in ANY other breeder's pedigrees. She was a " dog hoarder". We found this out quite by accident. Her house was stacked full of adult dogs in cage on top of cage, but they were hidden behind closed doors.
> 
> Yes, other puppies which she sold have had the same liver problems .I have talked to some of their heartbroken humans too. All of our dogs were quite young, too young to breed, and all were sold with a spay/ neuter contract. The only possible repercussion in the future is if she sold intact dogs with a genetic defect to another breeder when she got scared due to this heriditary problem and immediately shut down. It is believed by some whom she stayed friendly with that she sold all of her breeding stock, but possibly also with spay/ neuter contracts. None of us know exactly what happened to the adult dogs she hoarded. It is quite unlikely that a strong reputable name breeding program would purchase her dogs because they lacked name recognition.
> 
> *I cannot post the person's name or the name of her kennel because her daughter in law posts on many Maltese forums.* Although I have done nothing at all wrong, I am too upset to deal with indignation or anger from a person who should be contrite and extremely sorry. Not with a disconnected phone, and with email bouncing.
> 
> I have lived though sad. I know sad. I am so ready for good, quality, happy. Yes, we are available to travel within Texas for a puppy for those who asked. Oklahoma would not be out of the question but we would prefer to deal with someone in our state because we are probably going to need a bit more... not sure of the word... *help*.. in selecting another puppy and having confidence that he or she is healthy. Being here is very helpful to me. Thank you!!


How fortunate for her you seem to have some misguided loyalty to this breeder/hoarder/miller. What's to prevent her from opening up "shop" again, and bamboozling other unsuspected buyers unless she is exposed?

I feel your pain, I truly do, exposing her would be a community service.


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## Sandcastles

Starsmom said:


> How fortunate for her you seem to have some misguided loyalty to this breeder/hoarder/miller. What's to prevent her from opening up "shop" again, and bamboozling other unsuspected buyers unless she is exposed?
> 
> I feel you pain, I truly do, *exposing her would be a community service*.


 
GREAT POST -

PairsandRio - with all due respect, don't you want to spare others from going through the pain, that you have recently suffered? Perhaps you would spare fluffs a lot of pain also, if you exposed this "breeder" - I think that it's the only decent thing to do.

I hope that you reconsider.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum

Sandcastles said:


> GREAT POST -
> 
> PairsandRio - with all due respect, don't you want to spare others from going through the pain, that you have recently suffered? Perhaps you would spare fluffs a lot of pain also, if you exposed this "breeder" - I think that it's the only decent thing to do.
> 
> I hope that you reconsider.


With all due respect also, I'm quite sure it wasn't the intention of the original poster to slander or expose anyone, she has just lost a loved family member & came here for suggestions & advice on finding her new baby - I know you have every good intention also, but this breeder is no longer breeding - let it rest. It wont help to re-hash the past. 

Forgive me in advance for expressing my opinion, I just don't want to see this thread turn into a drama.

Lets look forward, not back.


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## Starsmom

Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> With all due respect also, I'm quite sure it wasn't the intention of the original poster to slander or expose anyone, she has just lost a loved family member & came here for suggestions & advice on finding her new baby - I know you have every good intention also, but this breeder is no longer breeding - let it rest. It wont help to re-hash the past.
> 
> Forgive me in advance for expressing my opinion, I just don't want to see this thread turn into a drama.
> 
> Lets look forward, not back.


 
Guess I've watched too many Animal Planet rescue episodes where a breeder/hoarder has been closed down only to set up again somewhere else. :angry:


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## Ladysmom

Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> With all due respect also, I'm quite sure it wasn't the intention of the original poster to slander or expose anyone, she has just lost a loved family member & came here for suggestions & advice on finding her new baby - I know you have every good intention also, but this breeder is no longer breeding - let it rest. It wont help to re-hash the past.
> 
> Forgive me in advance for expressing my opinion, I just don't want to see this thread turn into a drama.
> 
> Lets look forward, not back.


Good post. :thumbsup:


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## Sandcastles

Starsmom said:


> Guess I've watched too many Animal Planet rescue episodes where a breeder/hoarder has been closed down only to set up again somewhere else. :angry:


 
It's reality. Not drama, fact.


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## Sandcastles

Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> With all due respect also, I'm quite sure it wasn't the intention of the original poster to slander or expose anyone, she has just lost a loved family member & came here for suggestions & advice on finding her new baby - I know you have every good intention also, but this breeder is no longer breeding - let it rest. It wont help to re-hash the past.
> 
> Forgive me in advance for expressing my opinion, I just don't want to see this thread turn into a drama.
> 
> Lets look forward, not back.


Whatever.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum

To the original poster - I apologise for my part in taking your thread off topic somewhat.

It seems that Rhapsody, Pashes & perhaps Tajon might be breeders you could look into? Hopefully some members here with babies from those breeders may be able to chime in with personal experience for you?

I wish you luck in your search.


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## allheart

Oh my dear sweetheart, I cry tears for you and we all feel your pain. I know the ache of needing, wanting to love a furbaby. Bless you, that day will come and will come soon, and I know you will do it with eyes wide open. _Bless you sweetheart. So glad you are here, know that we all care, we share your pain, for your precious one laying at peace, and will share any joy you may have in the future._

_I never "adopted" "purchased" from a reputable breeder, but I am sure the ladies here have given you wonderful advice. I think the AMA list is such a great place to start, even if they are not in your area, they have a pretty good network, and I am sure know of wonderful reputable breeders in your area._

_My heart and prayers are with you._

_Christine_


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## mysugarbears

Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> With all due respect also, I'm quite sure it wasn't the intention of the original poster to slander or expose anyone, she has just lost a loved family member & came here for suggestions & advice on finding her new baby - I know you have every good intention also, but this breeder is no longer breeding - let it rest. It wont help to re-hash the past.
> 
> Forgive me in advance for expressing my opinion, I just don't want to see this thread turn into a drama.
> 
> Lets look forward, not back.


 
:goodpost:


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## Green444

Having had time to read a lot of old post when I was sick recently, I believe I was able to recognize the breeder this person identified due to seeing old posts on SM. I could post more specifics, but don't want to zero in on the daughter in law posts here on SM. I don't want to help embarass this person.
I can't help but question how someone who seems to be at the "elementary level" for how to search for a reputable breeder can know that a former breeder's daughter in law is on a lot of Maltese sites. 
I sympathize with anyone who has lost a pet. I hope this poster is genuine, and not just a new member who joined to start slander.


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## allheart

Green444 said:


> Having had time to read a lot of old post when I was sick recently, I believe I was able to recognize the breeder this person identified due to seeing old posts on SM. I could post more specifics, but don't want to zero in on the daughter in law posts here on SM. I don't want to help embarass this person.
> I can't help but question how someone who seems to be at the "elementary level" for how to search for a reputable breeder can know that a former breeder's daughter in law is on a lot of Maltese sites.
> I sympathize with anyone who has lost a pet. I hope this poster is genuine, and not just a new member who joined to start slander.


 
No, I really honestly, with all my heart, believe this poster is genuine. You can feel her pain and how desperate she is to find a reputable breeder, to hopefully avoid and further heartache.

I understand what you are saying, but, no way, do I see that at all. In her first post, her primary goal, was to share her pain, and seek help in finding a reputable breeder in her area, without even disclosing any other further information. To me her main objective, is to find a healthy furbaby, and she is in a great deal of pain. We've all been there, I've been there, and this is one of the best places to be for support and guidance.

Gosh, I know her pain, so many of us do.


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## Green444

I so hope this is a genuine poster. True, the first post was filled with pain, but the second gave specific identifiying information about the breeder. If I, as a fairly new member, can pick up on this to make an identity of the breeder, then how many others who have been members here for a long time can do the same? It would have been more realistic to me if the person had just said that they rather not make a comment because that person had a relative or friend who was on a lot of the sites.


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## Cosy

Green444 said:


> I so hope this is a genuine poster. True, the first post was filled with pain, but the second gave specific identifiying information about the breeder. If I, as a fairly new member, can pick up on this to make an identity of the breeder, then how many others who have been members here for a long time can do the same? It would have been more realistic to me if the person had just said that they rather not make a comment because that person had a relative or friend who was on a lot of the sites.


I really don't see how it matters if you can identify the breeder if she/he is no longer breeding anyway. It's a moot point.

I don't think it would take more than a conversation with the breeder to know about
the daughter in law if she shared that info with the client. It's not that complicated, really. 

I do think if I had a pup from the breeder I would want to know. This is one of those painful learning times.


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## Green444

I would certainly want to know too if there was a potential problem in a dog I owned; however, I thought there had been problems here with new posters coming on with negative comments about breeders. When I found the breeder with at least ten champions who had a number of dogs in an outside kennel I didn't mention it on here, as I thought that wasn't what this site was about. 
The poster could have just said they would identify the breeder in a PM if asked. Since the daughter-in-law is a member here, maybe she will post.


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## edelweiss

Firstly, let me just say how sorry I am for your deep loss----I lost a dog many yrs. ago w/shunting---but he lived a long, hard life and died at a respectable old age---he did have surgery which made a huge difference. There is no way to compensate such grief!
I bred this dog w/2 champions who had no "obvious" health faults---I don't blame either of the breeders who were helping me get a start as a breeder from good stock. Life happens. I think your situation may have been different.

This poster is in a precarious spot----Christman recently had a FB discussion on how to handle/not to handle these health issues which was most enlightening. I plan to start a new thread so as not to hi-jack this one. I think we can all be supportive and all bring something to the table that may help others moving forward.

I look forward to hearing about a sweet little Texas baby that finds a new home w/you when you are ready! Blessings.


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## Maltbabe

*So sorry....*

I have read each post with caution and thought about this a LOT before posting.

My heart aches when anyone's pet is passes. It is painful! I have never been lucky enough to purchase from a breeder. My first Malt was given to me as birhday gift from my husband who knows nothing about DOGS, he knew I was in LOVE with the breed and paid 1200 for my Ladie whom I adore. Ladie came to us as a puppy. sick, very sick! I nursed her back to health. when I confronted the pet shop she came from they told me to bring her back and they would give me a new dog! THE GULL of some people! I reported her to animal control, SPCA and every agency there is. I would not take the baby I held in my hands back to that HORRIFIC place, I just knew they would let her die. It was then that I started looking in the internet to educate myself.

I believe that our babies are part of our families and those of us that are parents would never return or children or put them up for adoption if they came into the world sick.

With said, when I read the first post, I sensed that this person is hurting but has the time to " paint the picture perfect Maltese". I am not defending the Breeder or applauding her. But, I must say that; rather than be looking for perfection in LOOKS I would be concentrating on a fluf's health and bring to her to my VET to have a FULL screening. Health issues can arise at any time with any given pet and according to my vet, the smaller the fluff the greater the risk! I know that a lot of you here will understand what I am saying. Please refer to the the original post and read between the lines.

On another note, can someone please tell us how GINGER is doing. The sight of that poor baby has stayed with me for the last 3 days.


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## bellaratamaltese

Even if the breeder no longer is breeding, relatives of those lines may still be out there, so I think it could be important to 'name' the breeder and the lines and not try to hide it. It's not causing drama, imo, it's giving an FYI.


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## elly

bellaratamaltese said:


> Even if the breeder no longer is breeding, relatives of those lines may still be out there, so I think it could be important to 'name' the breeder and the lines and not try to hide it. It's not causing drama, imo, it's giving an FYI.


I agree...Ellie's breeder's name was Doris Green.


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## Maltbabe

*HELP !!!! Mimie's breeder is from Texas*

Her certificate of Pedigree reads as follows:

Sire: Lindie Little White Boy

Dam: Lil Dorothy

Breeder: Rebecca Allen Texas License

Does anyone know this breeder? is she a Puppy Mill????

Texas Licenses on both Sire and Dam

She was 1 in a litter of 5 !!!!!!!

OMG we all need to know these things!!!!


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## coco

Tammy, Tajon Maltese, is just a few miles outside of Tulsa. We went to her for our 2nd Malt. She is definitely a show breeder who has a few pups for sale. One of her dogs represented the Maltese in Westminster this past year. I'd give you the link, but I don't know how. Just google Tajon Maltese. Looks like she may have some pups for sale right now.

Edited to say--she doesn't actually seem to have any pups right now, but you should definitely call her to see what she has coming along. Tammy breeds beautiful, healthy dogs.


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## Orla

Maltbabe said:


> Her certificate of Pedigree reads as follows:
> 
> Sire: Lindie Little White Boy
> 
> Dam: Lil Dorothy
> 
> Breeder: Rebecca Allen Texas License
> 
> Does anyone know this breeder? is she a Puppy Mill????
> 
> Texas Licenses on both Sire and Dam
> 
> *She was 1 in a litter of 5 !!!!!!!*
> 
> OMG we all need to know these things!!!!


]

Just want to say - 5 is a big litter but not definite a sign of a BYB - Milo came from a reputable show breeder and was from a litter of 5.


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## Starsmom

Here you go... Ta-Jon Maltese Home Page


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## Starsmom

amby said:


> ]
> 
> Just want to say - 5 is a big litter but not definite a sign of a BYB - Milo came from a reputable show breeder and was from a litter of 5.


This particular one is a puppy miller, and is on the USDA list - the USDA list is the same list ranchers are listed on b/c they raise cattle, chickens, ect. and is considered a mass producer by the government.


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## Orla

Starsmom said:


> This particular one is a puppy miller, and is on the USDA list - the USDA list is the same list ranchers are listed on b/c they raise cattle, chickens, ect. and is considered a mass producer by the government.


oh I know - I wasn't trying to say it was a reputable breeder - just that litters of 5 aren't always from a BYB/puppy mill.

I know of a very well known, reputable show breeder who's ch bitch had a litter of 6.


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## k/c mom

To the OP ... I'm so sorry for your loss and the entire tragic situation. My Claire is from Rhapsody in Buda, Texas, near Austin and she is everything I was looking for in a Maltese. I got her at 7 months and I think that is a great age. She has such good manners (better than I could have taught) and she had a bile acid test before coming to me. 

Rhapsody Maltese and Professional Handling
Rhapsody Maltese | Facebook


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## Ladysmom

k/c mom said:


> To the OP ... I'm so sorry for your loss and the entire tragic situation. My Claire is from Rhapsody in Buda, Texas, near Austin and she is everything I was looking for in a Maltese. I got her at 7 months and I think that is a great age. She has such good manners (better than I could have taught) and she had a bile acid test before coming to me.
> 
> Rhapsody Maltese and Professional Handling
> Rhapsody Maltese | Facebook



And take a look at gorgeous Claire! 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/64-picture-posts/109202-claires-bath-day-zillion-pictures.html


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## ParisandRio

*I have posted the names on the " Dubious breeder" thread*

Some points I should make:
1) *Breeder- Claudia Graham and husband, Steve Graham. He is included because he took money from us on more than one occasion. ( transacted business in the name of Divinity Maltese).*
2) *Kennel name- Divinity Maltese*
3)* PR person on MANY dog forums I read to try to find specialty vets to help my sick dog...... We would have taken him anywhere in the WORLD- her daughter in law Shannon.*
4) I loved Claudia and trusted her enough to buy THREE of her dogs at a minimum of $2300 each; the 2 puppies cost $2500 each, and we were glad to pay it, we loved them all so much.
5) I know VERY LITTLE about what testing a prospective buyer can ask a breeder to have done by a vet prior to buying. There is NO literature from vets which specify this.I know because I looked and looked for it before we bought our first puppy from her.I couldn't find a THING. 
6) I also know VERY LITTLE about what tests a vet should do which is specific to a Maltese puppy when he or she is taken in for their first well puppy check up ( usually within a certain number of days on the sales contract). The vets I took the two boys to did not seem concerned at all when I asked about the genetic liver diseases that Maltese can have. They asked if the puppies were vomiting, and the answer was no. Nothing was checked that was specific to this. When my vets wouldn't do any tests and I asked them and they said the puppy looked healthy ( and he was), I looked on the Internet again, and again, I found no professional literature which had any guidelines for puppy testing specific to Maltese.

My challenge to this forum is to make it your collective mandate to educate the public AND the vets about all puppy testing which needs to be done at the breederr level, and at the expense of the new owner. I still don't know if I could have saved Bijoux's life if I had known more earlier.

To the person who said I talked about what a dog should look like: I tried to describe my memories of Bijoux from my heart.. and how I wanted a dog who was as much like him as possible. Bijoux's strongest attributes were his physical beauty and regal, quiet demeanor. We called him our little prince and he was.The other little boy we bought from her looks nothing like Bijoux did. He is cute as a button, and smart and funny and I love him dearly, just as much as I loved Bijoux ( and still love Beej in my heart). Bijoux was breathtakingly beautiful, but wasn't the very smart cut up that the other one is.. together they were splendid companions, you see. * But above all, I hope I did convey that I want a healthy puppy!!! I worry every single day that something will happen to the two I have left. I am scared for them. Wouldn't you be? *

*I have poured my heart out on the thread " Dubious Breeders". Please read my post there.*
*I have told my story and the story of 2 other Divinity puppies who died. One did not have Liver Shunt, but another type of liver failure, also genetic.*

I had been told by Claudia and Shannon that Claudia was " taking a break" from breeding because Shannon was having Claudia's first grandchild a few months ago... I also was told that Claudia was selling ALL of her adult dogs and going out of business, but things have been said here to cause me to question if a bona fide hoarder could sell every fertile male and female they made money off of and close up shop. My common sense says NO WAY. I want to believe it has stopped, that there will be no more crying dogs in empty bedrooms stacked almost to my head in crates, but since I can't know for certain, I am telling what I know.

I saw the dogs stacked like moving boxes of non-living merchandise at the very end. We went to their house unannounced and while my husband was trying to reason with Steve about our dog, I said I had to go to the restroom. I walked right into a room full of dogs, grown dogs, barking their heads off, in wire cages. The crates were stacked on top of each other to my shoulders, which would be to Claudia's maximum reach. With pans in the bottoms,not like the open cage bottoms I have seen on TV of puppy mills outdoors where the excrement falls down on the heads of the dogs below. Not that bad. Not with puppies in the cages, either. AND we could hear the same type of frantic barking in other parts of the house too. 
I am telling this to the Maltese community at large* NOT because of anything to do with Bijoux who died*, *but to keep her from doing the same thing again and getting away with it, and hurting her adult dogs, and breeding sick puppies.* And because she could not know if any of her dogs were sick or not, there were so many that I know about and so many I suspect were all over that house in cages... She could not properly feed, water, and potty them all and look after puppies too. No way!!! No one could have,.She told me about an adult dog named Shelby who died of sepsis at her house after a C section. Claudia would NOT let them spay the dog, and she took the dog home and she got a high fever, she still kept her home, and finally the little precious dog died at the emergency vet, too late. She told me about 2 newborn boys born at another time to another mother who should have been taken to an emergency vet clinic due to respiratory distress, But she thought she could give them oxygen at home and get them over it. She ran out of oxygen during Christmas, and they both died. I know more about her not getting help for sick dogs. I questioned her and she said she was a vet tech, but a vet tech would know the importance of getting help for 2 newborn puppies who weighed mere ounces and used up oxygen just trying to nurse.. and about the common sense approach of spaying a dog with pyometria (?sp) Take out the uterus and you remove the gross infection, then give IV antibiotics. The dog's septic litter were alive but very ill and then did die, one by one, over a period of many days in the hospital (I think)..Claudia never admitted that she should have had the dog spayed but did say that's what the vet wanted to do but she wanted puppies by Shelby so badly. . This was after we had bought our 3 dogs but before Bijoux was sick. I would never lie about any of this and I will swear to it in court if need be. I highly doubt that Claudia wants to sue me, and end up going to prison for cruelty to animals or animal neglect, though.

It is all very very sick and sad. I am happy for those who have healthy dogs from her.. I have two, but I still do worry about them. I always will.
And to be honest, I worry about Claudia. The dogs were her entire daily routine.. Are they still? I cannot honestly say that I do know. I can only repeat what I was told, and there are conflicts in the reports. 

I feel that if I can stop this from happening with her again, then Bijoux did not die in vain. I had forgotten about her dog Shelby and her puppies, and the two little sick boys until I was writing it all down tonight. I also remembered some other things, but I can't keep on or people will think I am here to crucify her. That is not so. I think she has a form of a mental illness. No one would do what she did to such beautiful little dogs when she had the money and space to build a nice kennel in her back yard otherwise. Some of her neighbors had horses and a small stable in their yard/ pasture. I am trying to understand, but I never will understand why my sweet baby died. NEVER.

I hope this helps someone who has been concerned about their dog's pedigree.. or about who to buy from or not buy from. And who to be on the lookout for. I REALLY CARE about ALL our dogs.


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## Sandcastles

ParisandRio said:


> Some points I should make:
> 1) *Breeder- Claudia Graham and husband, Steve Graham. He is included because he took money from us on more than one occasion. ( transacted business in the name of Divinity Maltese).*
> 2) *Kennel name- Divinity Maltese*
> 3)* PR person on MANY dog forums I read to try to find specialty vets to help my sick dog...... We would have taken him anywhere in the WORLD- her daughter in law Shannon.*
> 4) I loved Claudia and trusted her enough to buy THREE of her dogs at a minimum of $2300 each; the 2 puppies cost $2500 each, and we were glad to pay it, we loved them all so much.
> 5) I know VERY LITTLE about what testing a prospective buyer can ask a breeder to have done by a vet prior to buying. There is NO literature from vets which specify this.I know because I looked and looked for it before we bought our first puppy from her.I couldn't find a THING.
> 6) I also know VERY LITTLE about what tests a vet should do which is specific to a Maltese puppy when he or she is taken in for their first well puppy check up ( usually within a certain number of days on the sales contract). The vets I took the two boys to did not seem concerned at all when I asked about the genetic liver diseases that Maltese can have. They asked if the puppies were vomiting, and the answer was no. Nothing was checked that was specific to this. When my vets wouldn't do any tests and I asked them and they said the puppy looked healthy ( and he was), I looked on the Internet again, and again, I found no professional literature which had any guidelines for puppy testing specific to Maltese.
> 
> My challenge to this forum is to make it your collective mandate to educate the public AND the vets about all puppy testing which needs to be done at the breederr level, and at the expense of the new owner. I still don't know if I could have saved Bijoux's life if I had known more earlier.
> 
> To the person who said I talked about what a dog should look like: I tried to describe my memories of Bijoux from my heart.. and how I wanted a dog who was as much like him as possible. Bijoux's strongest attributes were his physical beauty and regal, quiet demeanor. We called him our little prince and he was.The other little boy we bought from her looks nothing like Bijoux did. He is cute as a button, and smart and funny and I love him dearly, just as much as I loved Bijoux ( and still love Beej in my heart). Bijoux was breathtakingly beautiful, but wasn't the very smart cut up that the other one is.. together they were splendid companions, you see. *But above all, I hope I did convey that I want a healthy puppy!!! I worry every single day that something will happen to the two I have left. I am scared for them. Wouldn't you be? *
> 
> *I have poured my heart out on the thread " Dubious Breeders". Please read my post there.*
> *I have told my story and the story of 2 other Divinity puppies who died. One did not have Liver Shunt, but another type of liver failure, also genetic.*
> 
> I had been told by Claudia and Shannon that Claudia was " taking a break" from breeding because Shannon was having Claudia's first grandchild a few months ago... I also was told that Claudia was selling ALL of her adult dogs and going out of business, but things have been said here to cause me to question if a bona fide hoarder could sell every fertile male and female they made money off of and close up shop. My common sense says NO WAY. I want to believe it has stopped, that there will be no more crying dogs in empty bedrooms stacked almost to my head in crates, but since I can't know for certain, I am telling what I know.
> 
> I saw the dogs stacked like moving boxes of non-living merchandise at the very end. We went to their house unannounced and while my husband was trying to reason with Steve about our dog, I said I had to go to the restroom. I walked right into a room full of dogs, grown dogs, barking their heads off, in wire cages. The crates were stacked on top of each other to my shoulders, which would be to Claudia's maximum reach. With pans in the bottoms,not like the open cage bottoms I have seen on TV of puppy mills outdoors where the excrement falls down on the heads of the dogs below. Not that bad. Not with puppies in the cages, either. AND we could hear the same type of frantic barking in other parts of the house too.
> I am telling this to the Maltese community at large* NOT because of anything to do with Bijoux who died*, *but to keep her from doing the same thing again and getting away with it, and hurting her adult dogs, and breeding sick puppies.* And because she could not know if any of her dogs were sick or not, there were so many that I know about and so many I suspect were all over that house in cages... She could not properly feed, water, and potty them all and look after puppies too. No way!!! No one could have,.She told me about an adult dog named Shelby who died of sepsis at her house after a C section. Claudia would NOT let them spay the dog, and she took the dog home and she got a high fever, she still kept her home, and finally the little precious dog died at the emergency vet, too late. She told me about 2 newborn boys born at another time to another mother who should have been taken to an emergency vet clinic due to respiratory distress, But she thought she could give them oxygen at home and get them over it. She ran out of oxygen during Christmas, and they both died. I know more about her not getting help for sick dogs. I questioned her and she said she was a vet tech, but a vet tech would know the importance of getting help for 2 newborn puppies who weighed mere ounces and used up oxygen just trying to nurse.. and about the common sense approach of spaying a dog with pyometria (?sp) Take out the uterus and you remove the gross infection, then give IV antibiotics. The dog's septic litter were alive but very ill and then did die, one by one, over a period of many days in the hospital (I think)..Claudia never admitted that she should have had the dog spayed but did say that's what the vet wanted to do but she wanted puppies by Shelby so badly. . This was after we had bought our 3 dogs but before Bijoux was sick. I would never lie about any of this and I will swear to it in court if need be. I highly doubt that Claudia wants to sue me, and end up going to prison for cruelty to animals or animal neglect, though.
> 
> It is all very very sick and sad. I am happy for those who have healthy dogs from her.. I have two, but I still do worry about them. I always will.
> And to be honest, I worry about Claudia. The dogs were her entire daily routine.. Are they still? I cannot honestly say that I do know. I can only repeat what I was told, and there are conflicts in the reports.
> 
> I feel that if I can stop this from happening with her again, then Bijoux did not die in vain. I had forgotten about her dog Shelby and her puppies, and the two little sick boys until I was writing it all down tonight. I also remembered some other things, but I can't keep on or people will think I am here to crucify her. That is not so. I think she has a form of a mental illness. No one would do what she did to such beautiful little dogs when she had the money and space to build a nice kennel in her back yard otherwise. Some of her neighbors had horses and a small stable in their yard/ pasture. I am trying to understand, but I never will understand why my sweet baby died. NEVER.
> 
> I hope this helps someone who has been concerned about their dog's pedigree.. or about who to buy from or not buy from. And who to be on the lookout for. *I REALLY CARE about ALL our dogs*.


 
That is an understatement. The breeder that places a fluff with you - will be VERY fortunate to have you as the owner.

Warmest regards,

Allie


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## jennwask

I'm sure there are many out there w/ pups from these lines and it's very, very scary!


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## jennwask

I meant to post off this thread in saying I think there may be many others out there w/ lines to this breeder and it's very very scary!



bellaratamaltese said:


> Even if the breeder no longer is breeding, relatives of those lines may still be out there, so I think it could be important to 'name' the breeder and the lines and not try to hide it. It's not causing drama, imo, it's giving an FYI.


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## Katkoota

oh I am so very sorry for your loss (hugs). 

I also wish you the very best in finding your baby.

I would like to take the chance to welcome you to SM!

Kat


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## Alexa

I'm also very sad to read about your loss! Please accept my condolences!

Hope you'll find a breeder here! I think you've choosen a wonderful place here on SM to find one!

Welcome on SM, by the way!

Alexandra :wub:


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## ParisandRio

*IF YOU have or had a sick dog from Divinity, please tell about it*

My sick dog's bloodlines were:
*Dam- Ch*. *Paris *
*Sire- Ch. Rio*
*Hence my posting name here.*
His papers are all put away as keepsakes, so I do not have their full registered names right at hand but can get the papers out of our safe if it is important to someone. "Paris" and " Rio" should be sufficient.. She never had another Paris or Rio. They were her favorite pair to breed... They had so many champions between them, and their bloodlines were from great winning show lines. Their puppies had Rio's perfect head. Much like *Rio's father, who was "Buddy", Ch Trula's Midnight Rider. "Buddy" was a very prolific stud. *He produced many extremely beautiful Maltese with gorgeous coats and very round heads, and the sweet baby faces. You can see much of this look in the Cherub Maltese photos. Some of their dogs are descendants of Buddy.. I can spot them on sight.. They are unmistakably beautiful dogs with pure black points, thick coats, the whole works.What you can't see is their incredible sweetness, if they are like our Bijoux was.  

I tend to think the problem was not from Rio/ Buddy's side or there would be a plethora of dead Maltese in the DFW area.. Buddy had a great reputation at stud. 

To the person who told me that hoarding is a disease, yes, it definitely is closely associated with a compulsive addiction, thus it is a disease process. It is closely related to OCD ( obsessive compulsive disorder) as well and sometimes is successfully managed with the medication which can help those with OCD. A desire to change behaviors once they become disabling is still the primary factor in breaking the cycle of hoarding, though.
I do not know if Claudia was successful in breaking the cycle of hoarding. I do not know what happened to her fur babies. I hope that some rescue groups were involved at the end..* I support breed rescue 100%.* *As a result of what I have witnessed with my own eyes and ears, I would like to channel my energy into helping with Maltese rescue. I do not know what the needs are in the N. Texas area. *

*I am sincerely trying to find ways to turn a hurtful situation into a positive in my life.*

*And for those who say that liver disease can occur in any Maltese, yes, you are correct. What you are NOT taking into consideration, though is the the contract that was part of the boys' selling prices. We PAID for a Health Guarantee. We PAID for a Return Guarantee. Neither were honored. Therein lies the GREED, DECEPTION and a form of THEFT in the form of theft of services. She took money for her guarantees, then did not perform when the unthinkable happened. *

*I think I need to clarify a point..None of this is about the dog getting sick. It happens in all dogs at some point in a dog lover's life. My dog had extraordinary care at a leading vet facility in the country at great cost to us because our love for him had no limits. It is about the way the situation was thrown in our faces when we turned to the person we trusted so much.. the seller of our three precious Maltese. I should point out, in full disclosure and fairness, that the adult we purchased did not come with any type of health or return guarantee. TWO puppies had it, ONE adult did not. But a piece of paper was worthless in the end. *
*I really cared about Claudia, listened to her for hours on end, and I trusted her so much. Enough to go back and buy the third dog from her... She ripped our hearts out when our dog was so sick, then died. This is the point I am trying to get across about the differences between a good breeder and one who is unethical. An ethical person will honor their own contract if the buyer has fulfilled their portion, and we certainly did. *


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## Ladysmom

jennwask said:


> I'm sure there are many out there w/ pups from these lines and it's very, very scary!


I know your Miley is from Divinity also. Same sire, right, Rio?

I she healthy? Have you had a bile acids test done on her?


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## ParisandRio

*Jenn, please tell Miley's story like you told me in email*



Ladysmom said:


> I know your Miley is from Divinity also. Same sire, right, Rio?
> 
> I she healthy? Have you had a bile acids test done on her?


I KNOW that Miley almost died. Jenn, please tell what happened.


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## ParisandRio

*NEED more info about the bloodlines-- this is rather chilling*

This is an old post made by ShannonB. It started out as a discussion about how breeders know which puppies willl be show prospects, AS IF Claudia ever had any Maltese finished except Noelle and her brother Nicky at the very same time... but anyway, the discussion turned to the " theft" of Peanut, and why Peanut was so special to Claudia in terms of his bloodline. I had thought that it was RIO who was the more " special" of the two dogs who were Bijoux's parents, but NO, apparently it is Paris.. The strange thing is that Claudia told me that RIO is Buddy's offspring. That would make *both* Rio and Paris Buddy's progeny. Do responsible breeders breed half-siblings? Or did she misrepresent Rio's parentage? I don't know. She also represented Paris as a finished champion, and this is completely contrary to what Shannon says in this post. Like I said, I do NOT have a 4 generation pedigree on my Bijoux. She did not give me a copy of his parent's pedigrees. I do not believe they are online either.Rio was younger than Paris, so maybe Rio was one generation removed.. A grandson instead of son.. Buddy sired SO MANY pupppies, and really did produce many winning champions with his special qualities, that I really don't see the big picture here except that Shannon's post is very much at odds with what I have thought was true about Rio's heritage and Paris being a finished champion... Maybe the dam, Allye, made Paris more special to Claudia and somehow a great breeder of beautiful puppies. IDK, *I think the entire thing is all messed up more than ever now*. Buddy's children mated to each other? :angry:
Here is what Shannon had to say. I am bolding the important part.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Tina  

No - Peanut and Geno have never been found, although the handler was found liable in a civil case. But no amount of money is really worth wondering what happened to them. On the one hand, it could probably be taken off the website, but she isn't ready to give up hope just yet.... They would be 2 now. 

Geno was co-owned and a really sweet boy who had potential, *but Peanut was really the crushing blow. Both his parents are special dogs in pedigree and personality. 

My aunt has Peanut's mother, retiree Allye (a Maltangel girl), and Peanut and his sisters Paris and Pebbles were out of Allye's final litter with Buddy (Ch. Trula's Midnight Rider), who is the grandson of Westminster winner Non-Vel's Weejun (sorry it gets confusing*). 

Anyway, Claudia kept that whole litter to see who would end up with *the right stuff*. 

All three were beautiful, but it made the most sense to send Peanut out to be shown first, and then possibly Paris or Pebbles a few months later. Once it happened with Peanut (that he was missing), I don't think you could have pried Pebbles or Paris away to have them shown, they have since become all the more prized. 

Most of her dogs have been handled by Diane and Luke (Echricht? I think), and that was the plan with Peanut as well. The lady who was co-owning Geno sent her handler down to pick Geno up. When her handler came, he persuaded Claudia that he would take Peanut out and get him on the show circuit too, avoiding having to ship Peanut to Luke.

I think she will be forever devastated to not have just stuck with the plan and had Luke show Peanut. 

Anyway, Pebbles had pyometra during a heat cycle and was spayed. She will be placed in a pet home, if the right one can be found. 

(Grrr... ) I can't figure out how to post a picture - but here is a link:

http://www.divinitymaltese.com/avail...bbles2yrsm.jpg

Paris is still with Claudia. 

There were a lot of "leads" coming in for the first 6-9 months that the dogs were in Florida, or North Carolina, or had been shipped oversees. There was a PI hired for a while, and the sheriffs office in the various counties involved were helpful in trying (some of them didn't understand what the fuss is about). 

I think that having a dog stolen is probably more devastating than having one die, although I have fortunately not personally had a dog stolen. 
But at least when your dog goes to the Rainbow Bridge, you know where they are and that they feel no pain... 

Thank you for asking about Peanut and Geno 





*CAN ANYONE HELP ME WITH THE BLOODLINES OF PARIS AND RIO? I KNOW THERE ARE DIVINITY MALTESE OWNERS OUT THERE WITH PEDIGREES FOR LIVING DOGS, thank God.*


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## Ladysmom

ParisandRio said:


> *CAN ANYONE HELP ME WITH THE BLOODLINES OF PARIS AND RIO? I KNOW THERE ARE DIVINITY MALTESE OWNERS OUT THERE WITH PEDIGREES FOR LIVING DOGS, thank God.*



I sent you a pm with the information you are looking for.


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## Cosy

Yes, half brother/half sister breedings do take place once in awhile. It depends on the dogs and pedigrees as to what they are trying to lock in to their lines.


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## MaryH

My comment is not directed to anyone in particular, but the direction this thread has taken is exactly why I believe that people should use the PM button more often. This thread now contains enough misinformation and wrongful innuendos to sink a ship. And innocent people have been brought into this who had nothing to do with this situation and may have preferred to remain unnamed.

Paris and Rio are not at all related. Rio was not sired by Buddy. Retiree Allye was not a Maltangel dog. The puppies owned by ParisandRio are not the offspring of a half-sister/half-brother breeding. And, as Brit said above, there are times when a half-sister/half-brother would be an appropriate breeding. 

To ParisandRio - Paris and Rio's AKC pedigrees can be purchased through the AKC's online store or by calling the AKC. If you would like the information that will enable you to purchase their pedigrees feel free to PM me.


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## ParisandRio

MaryH said:


> My comment is not directed to anyone in particular, but the direction this thread has taken is exactly why I believe that people should use the PM button more often. This thread now contains enough misinformation and wrongful innuendos to sink a ship. And innocent people have been brought into this who had nothing to do with this situation and may have preferred to remain unnamed.
> 
> Paris and Rio are not at all related. Rio was not sired by Buddy. Retiree Allye was not a Maltangel dog. The puppies owned by ParisandRio are not the offspring of a half-sister/half-brother breeding. And, as Brit said above, there are times when a half-sister/half-brother would be an appropriate breeding.
> 
> To ParisandRio - Paris and Rio's AKC pedigrees can be purchased through the AKC's online store or by calling the AKC. If you would like the information that will enable you to purchase their pedigrees feel free to PM me.


Please, I made an honest mistake in my dog's history and here is the corrected information. I can't help what Shannon posted about a Maltangel dog. I reposted a post which was allowed to stand on this forum for two years, unchallenged. Apparently, no one cared what bloodline Allye was out of until this all happened with Paris's offspring. I don't know.
No, I will not spend money for parental pedigrees for a dog who has passed away and from whose bloodlines I would never ever purchase another dog under any circumstances. 

*Do you not understand that people HAVE been sending me PM after PM asking for this very info*?* I didn't post any of this for giggles and grins.* I was getting so many that I tried to put the histories online as best as I remembered them. I was wrong, slightly.

*CORRECTION*:
Paris was sired out of Ch. Trula's Midnight Rider, a Cherub Maltese and prolific breeder.

Rio was sired by ANOTHER of Cherub's champions. Ch. The Godfather " Michael". 
I believe that both sires were healthy.

Thank you,
Lilly


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## ParisandRio

Ladysmom said:


> I sent you a pm with the information you are looking for.


 Thank you for your generosity of spirit and your helpfulness. It benefits those who have been sending me messages and are worried about their Divinity dogs. 
I have corrected the info about Paris and Rio's parentages above. 

Again, I appreciate the way in which you helped me, gently and with grace. 
Hugs,
Lilly


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## jennwask

Ladysmom said:


> I know your Miley is from Divinity also. Same sire, right, Rio?
> 
> I she healthy? Have you had a bile acids test done on her?


 
First of all, I cannot tell you all how this has brought back MANY MANY nightmares to me with what I went through with my precious Miley. I could go into detail but Lilly has done a great job of explaining...she & my story are similar, EXCEPT thank God, Miley did not die. My heart is just breaking for her because I know the sleepless nights, crying day and night, scared feelings and emotions I had for my Miley just last summer. I thank God every single day my girl is alive and thanks to the WONDERFUL expertise and care of Unif of TN and Dr. Karen Tobias, she is alive today and being medicaly managed with diet & medications. Miley had a suspected liver shunt when I opted for pre-anesthetic blood work for her spay. Following elevated liver enzymes, Miley saw an internist for her Bile Acids. After extreme elevation results and a lot of research, I drove her 9 1/2 hrs one way to Univ of TN to the BEST dr in the country for liver shunts. A scintigraphy performed @ UT showed she did not have a liver shunt, but instead MVD, another genetic liver disease that is not operable. She will be two the end of this month and I truly thank God every single day for her. Last year was EXTREMELY difficult for me and I just cannot tell you what I was put through after turning to Claudia for not only assistance BUT SUPPORT. I was scared to death during that time and just wanted my baby to be ok!!! BUT I will say I was told over and over and over again there had NEVER been a genetic liver disease issue in her lines! It got really, really ugly and I was extremely heart broken because like Lilly, I felt I had a true friend AND REPUTABLE breeder in Claudia. I did my homework & research before finding Miley and not only did breeders ask me extensive questions when I would call inquiring about avail. puppies, I had my OWN list of questions for them because I was looking for a reputable breeder who was breeding for the RIGHT reasons, to better the breed and I was also told Divinity had a "few" litters per year....no at a BYB or puppymill would do! Also, I STRESSED to Claudia that my relationship with the breeder AFTER the sale was EXTREMELY important to me and I wanted to know she woudl be there for me just for general questions, keep in touch, etc, etc......Over and over I was told she'd have it NO other way...............UNTIL I needed her! Once her husband got involved it got really ugly!

My heart breaks for you Lilly and although I never posted my story in detail, I feel your a pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thank you for posting!!!!


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## jennwask

ParisandRio said:


> Please, I made an honest mistake in my dog's history and here is the corrected information. I can't help what Shannon posted about a Maltangel dog. I reposted a post which was allowed to stand on this forum for two years, unchallenged. Apparently, no one cared what bloodline Allye was out of until this all happened with Paris's offspring. I don't know.
> No, I will not spend money for parental pedigrees for a dog who has passed away and from whose bloodlines I would never ever purchase another dog under any circumstances.
> 
> *Do you not understand that people HAVE been sending me PM after PM asking for this very info*?* I didn't post any of this for giggles and grins.* I was getting so many that I tried to put the histories online as best as I remembered them. I was wrong, slightly.
> 
> *CORRECTION*:
> Paris was sired out of Ch. Trula's Midnight Rider, a Cherub Maltese and prolific breeder.
> 
> Rio was sired by ANOTHER of Cherub's champions. Ch. The Godfather " Michael".
> I believe that both sires were healthy.
> 
> Thank you,
> Lilly


 
I just wanted to add that Rio is Miley's father, but Paris is not her mom....Miley's mom and Paris' mom do have the father though, different mothers.


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## Ladysmom

jennwask said:


> First of all, I cannot tell you all how this has brought back MANY MANY nightmares to me with what I went through with my precious Miley. I could go into detail but Lilly has done a great job of explaining...she & my story are similar, EXCEPT thank God, Miley did not die. My heart is just breaking for her because I know the sleepless nights, crying day and night, scared feelings and emotions I had for my Miley just last summer. I thank God every single day my girl is alive and thanks to the WONDERFUL expertise and care of Unif of TN and Dr. Karen Tobias, she is alive today and being medicaly managed with diet & medications. Miley had a suspected liver shunt when I opted for pre-anesthetic blood work for her spay. Following elevated liver enzymes, Miley saw an internist for her Bile Acids. After extreme elevation results and a lot of research, I drove her 9 1/2 hrs one way to Univ of TN to the BEST dr in the country for liver shunts. A scintigraphy performed @ UT showed she did not have a liver shunt, but instead MVD, another genetic liver disease that is not operable. She will be two the end of this month and I truly thank God every single day for her. Last year was EXTREMELY difficult for me and I just cannot tell you what I was put through after turning to Claudia for not only assistance BUT SUPPORT. I was scared to death during that time and just wanted my baby to be ok!!! BUT I will say I was told over and over and over again there had NEVER been a genetic liver disease issue in her lines! It got really, really ugly and I was extremely heart broken because like Lilly, I felt I had a true friend AND REPUTABLE breeder in Claudia. I did my homework & research before finding Miley and not only did breeders ask me extensive questions when I would call inquiring about avail. puppies, I had my OWN list of questions for them because I was looking for a reputable breeder who was breeding for the RIGHT reasons, to better the breed and I was also told Divinity had a "few" litters per year....no at a BYB or puppymill would do! Also, I STRESSED to Claudia that my relationship with the breeder AFTER the sale was EXTREMELY important to me and I wanted to know she woudl be there for me just for general questions, keep in touch, etc, etc......Over and over I was told she'd have it NO other way...............UNTIL I needed her! Once her husband got involved it got really ugly!
> 
> My heart breaks for you Lilly and although I never posted my story in detail, I feel your a pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thank you for posting!!!!


I have heard amazing things about Dr. Tobias and U of Tennessee. I am so glad she was able to help your Miley.


----------



## ParisandRio

jennwask said:


> First of all, I cannot tell you all how this has brought back MANY MANY nightmares to me with what I went through with my precious Miley. I could go into detail but Lilly has done a great job of explaining...she & my story are similar, EXCEPT thank God, Miley did not die. My heart is just breaking for her because I know the sleepless nights, crying day and night, scared feelings and emotions I had for my Miley just last summer. I thank God every single day my girl is alive and thanks to the WONDERFUL expertise and care of Unif of TN and Dr. Karen Tobias, she is alive today and being medicaly managed with diet & medications. Miley had a suspected liver shunt when I opted for pre-anesthetic blood work for her spay. Following elevated liver enzymes, Miley saw an internist for her Bile Acids. After extreme elevation results and a lot of research, I drove her 9 1/2 hrs one way to Univ of TN to the BEST dr in the country for liver shunts. A scintigraphy performed @ UT showed she did not have a liver shunt, but instead MVD, another genetic liver disease that is not operable. She will be two the end of this month and I truly thank God every single day for her. Last year was EXTREMELY difficult for me and I just cannot tell you what I was put through after turning to Claudia for not only assistance BUT SUPPORT. I was scared to death during that time and just wanted my baby to be ok!!! BUT I will say I was told over and over and over again there had NEVER been a genetic liver disease issue in her lines! It got really, really ugly and I was extremely heart broken because like Lilly, I felt I had a true friend AND REPUTABLE breeder in Claudia. I did my homework & research before finding Miley and not only did breeders ask me extensive questions when I would call inquiring about avail. puppies, I had my OWN list of questions for them because I was looking for a reputable breeder who was breeding for the RIGHT reasons, to better the breed and I was also told Divinity had a "few" litters per year....no at a BYB or puppymill would do! Also, I STRESSED to Claudia that my relationship with the breeder AFTER the sale was EXTREMELY important to me and I wanted to know she woudl be there for me just for general questions, keep in touch, etc, etc......Over and over I was told she'd have it NO other way...............UNTIL I needed her! Once her husband got involved it got really ugly!
> 
> My heart breaks for you Lilly and although I never posted my story in detail, I feel your a pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thank you for posting!!!!


Oh, Jenn, when you emailed me when Miley got sick, I totally did not understand why you didn't get in touch with Claudia.. I couldn't imagine that she wouldn't help you. I thought I knew her so well. I thought we had bonded over her 3 dogs I had bought from her.. I thought we were "special" to her.. You know, just what YOU said..
The hurt is enormous, and like you said, your post brings it all back to me so clearly. We both are the types of people who trust others and are kind. We believe the best in other people, I think.. And we love our dogs so very much.

Enough about a very bad situation. *Do you think Miley will be OK or will she have precarious health from now on? Will she be on medication? Do you know yet?* I'm sorry, but I really do worry about your baby. I am so very sorry that I could not reach Claudia for you. She was already unreachable by phone and my father was dying, 800 miles from here, I was out of town most of last summer and trying to deal with his impending death.

We had to go to her house about Bijoux and we were broken hearted people, extremely humble, just begging the Grahams for help. And they kicked us in the faces when we were down, literally crying for help. We meant nothing to them. The tiny precious baby Claudia brought into this world and who was dying meant less than nothing to her. A baby from her precious Paris and Rio. I will never understand, not even if I live to be 100. 
I have prayed to understand, but I have had to settle for forgiving. I forgive her for what she did because I truly believe she is a hoarder of dogs. I believe this is an illness. I saw the dogs piled high in a room I wasn't supposed to go into. I went into the wrong room by mistake, but I think it was meant to be. That I was meant to see what was going on behind closed doors so I would understand why she would not give us a puppy. Hoarders do not give what is precious away to others. It is not their nature. 

I hope you can understand what happened when you turned to her about Miley better now with this information. I hope you can forgive her also. Maybe you already have, you are such a lovely person.  
I pray that Miley will do well, will thrive and live a long healthy life. I am very worried knowing that she has a disease which is inoperable.. On necropsy, they said Bijoux's was not a regular liver shunt and gave us a very detailed report.. It's all a blur now, but it was terrible.

Hugs to you and little Miley,
Lilly


----------



## bellaratamaltese

I just want to say that even if puppies require oxygen support and are sickly and if the mom rejects them, the best thing to do is to let nature take its course, as hard as that is to hear and contemplate.

this thread has become very passionate and it's hard to separate the details. I honestly don't know what to think. The stories of the puppies dying and moms dying is first hand information? 

It sounds like a huge disservice was done to you and your sweet baby and I'm sorry to hear this. Hope you can find your perfect baby.


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## janettandamber

Did you report this breeder to the humane society when you saw the dogs in the condition they were in when you visited her house?


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## jennwask

Ladysmom said:


> I have heard amazing things about Dr. Tobias and U of Tennessee. I am so glad she was able to help your Miley.


 
THANK YOU! I am sooooooo thankful for coming upon the Yahoo livershunt forum. The moderator there helped save my little girl OR else Miley may not be with me today! At first I was thinking I was insanely crazy for even thinking about driving 9 1/2 hrs one way to Univ of TN when I could use a very good University in PA a lot closer to me or the internist in MD who had come to know Miley, her condition and had knowledge of LS / MVD. BUT then I realized I was only going to get the ABSOLUTE best for my baby girl to give her the best chance at life possible and the other HUGE thing about UT, not only their experience in LS repair BUT they do 10 - 15 a WEEK AND have a superb ICU w/ 24 hr round the clock care and I will always have ties to them and Dr. Tobias available for questions/issues, she works w/ my Internist here in MD AND their experience w/ the tiny babies....at 10 mths old, Miley was only 2lb 9 oz, she gained a whopping ONE lb the entire time I had her.....they deal w/ the smaller babies quite often & I wouldn't trust just ANYONE to open up my baby! So off to TN we went!!! I pray I never have to, BUT I'd do it all again for Miley in a heart beat...she's worth every bit of that drive, expense, etc, etc. I have a picture of Miley & Dr Tobias which I will treasure forever because she saved my baby girl & gave her a chance at life!!!


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## jennwask

janettandamber said:


> Did you report this breeder to the humane society when you saw the dogs in the condition they were in when you visited her house?


I wrote a few places asking for guidance & kept hitting a wall!


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## lovesophie

Wow, I just read this thread, as well as the "Dubious Breeders" one, and I'm so sorry for what you ladies have gone through and continue to go through, all due to unethical breeding practices. 

I've always had a sneaking suspicion about Divinity Maltese. Perhaps my reservations about Divinity started after that one member shared with us how his Divinity retiree was debarked-- not by Divinity, but by the breeder they purchased her from-- yet, Divinity failed to mention anything to this guy, claiming that they simply forgot? Um, okay. I don't know, but this really didn't sit well with me. Or perhaps it's because I always thought they charged outlandish prices for their puppies, even though it seemed to me that they weren't actively showing, which led me to believe that they were breeding for profit. I'm not quite sure what it was about them that spurred my suspicions, but I'm glad I listened to my gut instinct and refrained from recommending them to potential puppy buyers. 

Anyway, I'm so glad you ladies shared your experience with Divinity with us, as horrible as it may have been, I'm sure your experience will help someone in the future in one way or another.


----------



## jennwask

ParisandRio said:


> Oh, Jenn, when you emailed me when Miley got sick, I totally did not understand why you didn't get in touch with Claudia.. I couldn't imagine that she wouldn't help you. I thought I knew her so well. I thought we had bonded over her 3 dogs I had bought from her.. I thought we were "special" to her.. You know, just what YOU said..
> The hurt is enormous, and like you said, your post brings it all back to me so clearly. We both are the types of people who trust others and are kind. We believe the best in other people, I think.. And we love our dogs so very much.
> 
> Enough about a very bad situation. *Do you think Miley will be OK or will she have precarious health from now on? Will she be on medication? Do you know yet?* I'm sorry, but I really do worry about your baby. I am so very sorry that I could not reach Claudia for you. She was already unreachable by phone and my father was dying, 800 miles from here, I was out of town most of last summer and trying to deal with his impending death.
> 
> We had to go to her house about Bijoux and we were broken hearted people, extremely humble, just begging the Grahams for help. And they kicked us in the faces when we were down, literally crying for help. We meant nothing to them. The tiny precious baby Claudia brought into this world and who was dying meant less than nothing to her. A baby from her precious Paris and Rio. I will never understand, not even if I live to be 100.
> I have prayed to understand, but I have had to settle for forgiving. I forgive her for what she did because I truly believe she is a hoarder of dogs. I believe this is an illness. I saw the dogs piled high in a room I wasn't supposed to go into. I went into the wrong room by mistake, but I think it was meant to be. That I was meant to see what was going on behind closed doors so I would understand why she would not give us a puppy. Hoarders do not give what is precious away to others. It is not their nature.
> 
> I hope you can understand what happened when you turned to her about Miley better now with this information. I hope you can forgive her also. Maybe you already have, you are such a lovely person.
> I pray that Miley will do well, will thrive and live a long healthy life. I am very worried knowing that she has a disease which is inoperable.. On necropsy, they said Bijoux's was not a regular liver shunt and gave us a very detailed report.. It's all a blur now, but it was terrible.
> 
> Hugs to you and little Miley,
> Lilly


 
Yeah I attemtped NUMERIOUS times and was determined not to give up, they have caller ID so they knew when it was me most of the time. BUT then I realized you know what, my baby is what is important right now and I have to focus my energies and time educating myself on what I facing and what was best for Miley!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot tell you how many times Claudia told me over and over Miley was her fav pup of all time and she cried the day I picked her up and our phone call that night she was just in tears "heartbroken" over her leaving but she assured me she knew she was going to a wonderful forever home and because she knew that, it was ok....so much for her love and care for my baby when I called initially just for support & guidence. I felt like a freight train hit me and I didn't know which way to turn because I wasn't sure if my baby was going to live or die, what the best options were for me, how to do it, etc etc...I owe it all to the yahoo LS forum for picking me back up, refocusing me and getting me to Univ of TN! Then when I called her with the final diagnosis, that was a whole other story, I just still cannot believe how she turned her back on this precious baby after all she promised! 

To answer your question, YES Miley will have to stay on prescription diet and medication the rest of her life if I want her to live any length of time. As long as the MVD is managed medically & through diet, she should be ok! I also expressed that to her husband because obvioulsy this was now an add'l expense I wasn't looking for and beings it was a genetic issue thought they may reconsider assisting me in some way....but the response I got was "what do you want to do return her" and "well you said she'll be ok and isn't going to die" Are you kidding me! I don't treat my animals as such, they are my babies & a HUGE part of my family....so since it was known returning Miley after having her in my arms for 6 months and going through all this w/ her, our trip to TN, etc, there is NO way I was giving her up.....I will provide the best possible life for Miley, I had to move forward for my own sanity and Claudia has to deal w/ the way she handled things, the broken promises, things that were said, etc etc. I am just thankful to God for guiding me and helping me through it all. She sees an internist annually for a full blood work up, as long as that stays within a certain range, we'll continue on the treatment plan we are on. Her #'s will never be "normal" and her bile acids will never be normal, but in my eyes, she is normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There isn't a day that goes by that I don't worry about her, but she is doing well and is a very happy little girl! I don't know how to post pics or else I'd show you all my beautiful baby!


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## ParisandRio

janettandamber said:


> Did you report this breeder to the humane society when you saw the dogs in the condition they were in when you visited her house?


I think you are probably asking me, as Jenn had her dog shipped to her. No, I did not take any action against Claudia Graham or Steve Graham because I did not have the support of my spouse to do so. I was certain that we would be sued. I do not choose to work any longer, therefore it would be his income that they would go after. At that time, my father was very ill, my dog was dying, and I had all I could handle emotionally and physically.

Plus, Claudia had already announced that she was ceasing operations and selling her dogs. My husband said that the dogs, like the adult we purchased from her, would all go to better homes soon. I was extremely upset. He was trying to placate me, but he is probably correct. She probably did find homes for her dogs, as they were all pretty dogs. ( She did charge enormous prices for them though). We had ALL we could deal with, with our sick family member and our sick dog, both dying.

I am sorry that I did not do the most correct thing. I have worried about those dogs ever since. I apologize to the entire Maltese community for not reporting this to the Humane Society of Tarrant County, Texas. Please forgive me.


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## k/c mom

Her home page has the message about not breeding any more but apparently her interior pages are still accessible. All of the links at the top of the page work. A link to Rio's pedigree is on this page:
Divinity Maltese


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## jennwask

Lilly to get back to your original inquiry about your next puppy...I HIGHLY recommend Tammy @ Tajon Maltese....I just got one of her precious babies this past May and he is such a doll! I wanted a little playmate for Miley and she came EXTREMELY highly recommended to me so I called her.....I shared my Miley story with her right off the bat and she was very caring & understanding and gave me her scenario if anything would ever come up w/ her babies how she'd handle it. I hit it off w/ her right away. Again I would have been skepticle after what I had already been through in my past experience, BUT like I said she came extremely recommended to me so I felt more comfortable. I know someone else mentioned her to you on this forum but I'm telling you from my own personal experience.....if I ever add another Malt to my two now, there is NO question, it'll be another Tajon baby! Not only is is top show breeder, her heart is into her babies 110%. She is very busy and you'll probably have to leave a message BUT she'll DEF call you back! DO NOT wait for her website to be updated...most of her babies are placed before they ever hit the website & I know for a fact right now she has babies avail so if you are interested please give her a call and at least talk to her!!!! You can tell her I recommended you....I have Baby Jackson from Tajon. I got Jackson in March and Tammy will still keep in touch w/ me, I share photos of him with her, I can go back to her with questions or ANYTHING, she always takes time out of her busy schedule to get back to me and believe me she is very busy....if you'd like to know anything else, you can pm me...not sure how much is allowed to be shared on the forum about "avail pups" and I don't want to break any of the forum rules! She is in OK so not too far from you!


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## Ladysmom

lovesophie said:


> Wow, I just read this thread, as well as the "Dubious Breeders" one, and I'm so sorry for what you ladies have gone through and continue to go through, all due to unethical breeding practices.
> 
> I've always had a sneaking suspicion about Divinity Maltese. Perhaps my reservations about Divinity started after that one member shared with us how his Divinity retiree was debarked-- not by Divinity, but by the breeder they purchased her from-- yet, Divinity failed to mention anything to this guy, claiming that they simply forgot? Um, okay. I don't know, but this really didn't sit well with me. Or perhaps it's because I always thought they charged outlandish prices for their puppies, even though it seemed to me that they weren't actively showing, which led me to believe that they were breeding for profit. I'm not quite sure what it was about them that spurred my suspicions, but I'm glad I listened to my gut instinct and refrained from recommending them to potential puppy buyers.
> 
> Anyway, I'm so glad you ladies shared your experience with Divinity with us, as horrible as it may have been, I'm sure your experience will help someone in the future in one way or another.


You are absolutely right! I'd forgotten about the debarked retiree from Divinity!

Here is the thread:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/86277-omg-i-am-going-through-heck.html


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## jennwask

k/c mom said:


> Her home page has the message about not breeding any more but apparently her interior pages are still accessible. All of the links at the top of the page work. A link to Rio's pedigree is on this page:
> Divinity Maltese


Yes it's been that way for about a year now, BUT if you google the right combo of words, you can get all the old info....avail for sale, puppies, current dogs, etc etc. In fact my Miley's video as a puppy & her picture are STILL on her page for viewing!


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## ParisandRio

bellaratamaltese said:


> I just want to say that even if puppies require oxygen support and are sickly and if the mom rejects them, the best thing to do is to let nature take its course, as hard as that is to hear and contemplate.
> 
> this thread has become very passionate and it's hard to separate the details. I honestly don't know what to think. The stories of the puppies dying and moms dying is first hand information?
> 
> It sounds like a huge disservice was done to you and your sweet baby and I'm sorry to hear this. Hope you can find your perfect baby.


I would swear under oath that Mrs. Claudia Graham did tell me in her own residence that two male puppies were born with meconium aspiration. She tried to suction their airways.. She tried to give them O2 at home, not seeking vet care for them. There were no congenital abnormalities, according to her and the puppies were not weaklings at birth, but deteriorated. As I asked her more probing questions related to the emergency vets available to her and why she did not take the newborn puppies to the 24 hour vets, she stated that she often resuscitated her own puppies, and thought she would slide by with these as well. However, because it was the Christmas holidays, her usual O2 supplier was not in the office, and her O2 tank ran out of O2. The puppies died due to hypoxia, according to Claudia, who blamed the home oxygen company, not her own delay/ refusal to take the boys to an emergency vet for the emergency treatment they could have provided her puppies.

I absolutely would swear under oath that every word ( and more) regarding her whelping bitch Shelby and Shelby's litter of puppies is true. She failed to allow the spaying of a C sectioned septic dog with pyometra because she wanted to try to breed the dog again. She claimed extreme love for the dog, and therefore, for all unborn offspring of said dog. Instead, the dog's sepsis flared up at her home, and became worse despite home care. She finally took the little dog in for treatment as she assumed ambient room temperature. The only part I am not clear on is whether or not the puppies died at her home or at the vet's. I believe she did leave the puppies at the vet's for IV antibiotics and intensive care. But not their very sick, very tiny ( I saw her photos) mother.. Shelby was a little doll. MOST of us would have known to keep the little girl at the vet's until she had been spayed and her infection was all cleared with IV antibiotics, and she had good IV rehydration. Claudia was a hoarder. This is another example. Ditto the two puppies. She desperately wanted them to live, but would not relinquish control of them physically to another person ( a vet). 

And yes, I do have college degrees in psychology.


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## Ladysmom

jennwask said:


> Yes it's been that way for about a year now, BUT if you google the right combo of words, you can get all the old info....avail for sale, puppies, current dogs, etc etc. In fact my Miley's video as a puppy & her picture are STILL on her page for viewing!


Yup, I found Miley's video earlier when I was looking for the pedigrees for Paris & Rio for Lilly.

Here is that little sweetie:

Divinity Maltese


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## ParisandRio

jennwask said:


> Yeah I attemtped NUMERIOUS times and was determined not to give up, they have caller ID so they knew when it was me most of the time. BUT then I realized you know what, my baby is what is important right now and I have to focus my energies and time educating myself on what I facing and what was best for Miley!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot tell you how many times Claudia told me over and over Miley was her fav pup of all time and she cried the day I picked her up and our phone call that night she was just in tears "heartbroken" over her leaving but she assured me she knew she was going to a wonderful forever home and because she knew that, it was ok....so much for her love and care for my baby when I called initially just for support & guidence. I felt like a freight train hit me and I didn't know which way to turn because I wasn't sure if my baby was going to live or die, what the best options were for me, how to do it, etc etc...I owe it all to the yahoo LS forum for picking me back up, refocusing me and getting me to Univ of TN! Then when I called her with the final diagnosis, that was a whole other story, I just still cannot believe how she turned her back on this precious baby after all she promised!
> 
> To answer your question, YES Miley will have to stay on prescription diet and medication the rest of her life if I want her to live any length of time. As long as the MVD is managed medically & through diet, she should be ok! I also expressed that to her husband because obvioulsy this was now an add'l expense I wasn't looking for and beings it was a genetic issue thought they may reconsider assisting me in some way....but the response I got was "what do you want to do return her" and "well you said she'll be ok and isn't going to die" Are you kidding me! I don't treat my animals as such, they are my babies & a HUGE part of my family....so since it was known returning Miley after having her in my arms for 6 months and going through all this w/ her, our trip to TN, etc, there is NO way I was giving her up.....I will provide the best possible life for Miley, I had to move forward for my own sanity and Claudia has to deal w/ the way she handled things, the broken promises, things that were said, etc etc. I am just thankful to God for guiding me and helping me through it all. She sees an internist annually for a full blood work up, as long as that stays within a certain range, we'll continue on the treatment plan we are on. Her #'s will never be "normal" and her bile acids will never be normal, but in my eyes, she is normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There isn't a day that goes by that I don't worry about her, but she is doing well and is a very happy little girl! I don't know how to post pics or else I'd show you all my beautiful baby!


Honey, you did the exact right thing- you took care of Miley. Just like we spent close to $100,000 at Texas A and M on Bij's care. They know us very well-- another of our dogs has had open heart surgery there, and it was also a very rare condition. He is still alive and thriving, and is my oldest baby at 13 years old now. Every day with him is a miracle, so very good things do happen in my life with my sweet fluffs, too 

I can tell you that the Grahams weren't going to give you another puppy if you had asked for one, or monetary compensation for her care, as you found out, either. We both learned the hard way that people aren't always what they seem to be, and although I already knew that, I felt I had a special friendship with Claudia because of our love for the dogs.. I now think that only you and I truly know what it's like to love those little dogs from that house when they get so sick and we are so worried.. 
I want you to email me and update me about Miley. Please send me some photos of both of your babies. I am so glad you found her a beautiful fluff playmate, too.  I hope she will live to a very ripe old age, always playful and loving, and not bothered by this liver thing. Who knows what advances in treatment will be made in her lifetime?  

Hugs to my friend.
Lilly


----------



## lovingmal

A little off topic but I also think Tammy @ Tajon is GREAT. I recently spoke to her and she did mention she had a female available. This was about 3-4 weeks ago.


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## Tina

Lilly,
Thank you for being brave and stating just the facts of your experience. Especially the pedigree. That helps to trace back and see a bigger picture of the lineage behind your boy. Like Mary said, liver shunt is in Maltese and we need to monitor it and try not to line up the genes for it to show up in breeding programs. 
Good luck in your search for your next family member. :wub:


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## ParisandRio

Tina said:


> Lilly,
> Thank you for being brave and stating just the facts of your experience. Especially the pedigree. That helps to trace back and see a bigger picture of the lineage behind your boy. Like Mary said, liver shunt is in Maltese and we need to monitor it and try not to line up the genes for it to show up in breeding programs.
> Good luck in your search for your next family member. :wub:


Thank you for your kindness. I just watched the vid of Jenn's Miley. I have tears streaming down my face, I want a puppy so badly. And I have this fear, too.... I could never bury another precious puppy.. .. I look at little Miley, and she has my Bijoux's facial and head features through their father, Rio. He was beautiful. Looking at her and her brother brings back all the memories of loving Bijoux before he got sick, when we played together, and he slept with us, and played so with his " brother" and " sister", and our other dogs.. 

I'm ready to move on, like Jenn did with Tajon and her new fluff boy.  I am going with a girl this time. 
Lilly


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## k/c mom

ParisandRio said:


> Thank you for your kindness. I just watched the vid of Jenn's Miley. I have tears streaming down my face, I want a puppy so badly. And I have this fear, too.... I could never bury another precious puppy.. .. I look at little Miley, and she has my Bijoux's facial and head features through their father, Rio. He was beautiful. Looking at her and her brother brings back all the memories of loving Bijoux before he got sick, when we played together, and he slept with us, and played so with his " brother" and " sister", and our other dogs..
> 
> I'm ready to move on, like Jenn did with Tajon and her new fluff boy.  I am going with a girl this time.
> Lilly


I think you are wise to go with a girl. The pain and loss of Bijoux seems still so raw and I do think you would be comparing. I think you were very brave to re-hash all that has happened to you. I'm sure it is painful but maybe it will make us all more aware of what can happen and certainly will make everyone aware that things are not what they seemed with Divinity.

If I were you I think I'd wait until the pup was at least 16 weeks' old, so the bile acid test will be the most accurate.


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## jennwask

Ladysmom said:


> Yup, I found Miley's video earlier when I was looking for the pedigrees for Paris & Rio for Lilly.
> 
> Here is that little sweetie:
> 
> Divinity Maltese


 
AND that very 1st pic after the video is my Precious Princess Miley!!!


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## ParisandRio

k/c mom said:


> I think you are wise to go with a girl. The pain and loss of Bijoux seems still so raw and I do think you would be comparing. I think you were very brave to re-hash all that has happened to you. I'm sure it is painful but maybe it will make us all more aware of what can happen and certainly will make everyone aware that things are not what they seemed with Divinity.
> 
> If I were you I think I'd wait until the pup was at least 16 weeks' old, so the bile acid test will be the most accurate.


Yes, I prefer for my puppies to be 16 weeks old to come home. They are better socialized, more mature, it goes more smoothly. Plus, we have two very hearty and curious " players" here-- the two Malts.  Although a puppy would be supervised closely, I still would feel more comfy with a month older puppy than a 12 weeker. I agree about the bile acid test also, of course.


----------



## Carole

ParisandRio said:


> Hello,
> I was the very happy mother to Bijoux, an 8 month old AKC registered Maltese whom we purchased from a lady who seemed to have a very good, small breeding program in the DFW Texas area. Our boy's parents had 72 champions in their 5 generation pedigrees between them.. We thought we were getting the best possible puppy. And we loved him with all our hearts, and still do.
> Our baby boy died of an inherited disease 4 months ago. We are ready to try to fill our empty nest, although no baby can *replace* him.. everyone knows how that works.
> 
> We are looking for a breeder with a very strong show program who occasionally has puppies for sale under a spay/ neuter contract. The puppy must be as close to the Maltese standard as possible.. we do not want bite problems, long noses or legs, a thin or curly coat, etc. even though we aren't going to breed this dog or any other we might have.
> 
> It is very important to us to be able to see the puppy in his natural enbironment and preferably to see his dam. We do not expect the sire to be on premises. Both sire and dam should be finished AKC champions, with bloodlines full of champions from well-known programs.
> 
> *Health matters a great deal to us* *after what we went through with our little boy's breeder who quietly folded up shop and went out of business when her sold puppies started manifesting a liver disorder which kills most adolescents.*
> 
> I am lost, not knowing where to go. I know about the AMA site, but I am not convinced that their list is " the Bible" list for all great breeding programs.
> 
> Any help is apppreciated. Price is NOT a concern. Quality, and extreme ethcis are. Thank you for reading., and thank you very much if you can help us find a little boy, probably after the holidays. We are not trying to " get a puppy for Christmas".. He will be our child.
> Lilly


*I have been very blessed with both my breeders and both my Maltese. Bella 7 1/2 years from DIVINE in Lousiana.... and Krista 5 years from PASHES in TEXAS. *

*Since you are looking for a breeder from TEXAS I will post a picture of my Krista. There have also been many other great suggestion of well respected Maltese breeders throughout this thread.:thumbsup:*


Pashes Maltese - Home of Top Winning Maltese dogs and Maltese puppies.


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## ParisandRio

*Thank you!*

Your fluff is beautiful!! I have heard exceptionally good things about both breeders and certainly would drive to LA for a puppy, 
This Pashes baby is just precious!! Give Krista a hug for me!
Lilly


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## elly

My Mercedes is from TNT's Maltese in Florida. Tom and Theresa have beautiful dog's and they are very nice. 

Cathy


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## Lacie's Mom

Tajon is also near your area (near Tulsa). 

I have one of Bonnie's retirees. She just turned 9 and is as healthy and spry as a puppy.


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## mysugarbears

Lacie's Mom said:


> Tajon is also near your area (near Tulsa).
> 
> I have one of Bonnie's retirees. She just turned 9 and is as healthy and spry as a puppy.


 

From my own personal experience i wouldn't buy a pup from Bonnie Palmer.


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## ParisandRio

Lacie's Mom said:


> Tajon is also near your area (near Tulsa).
> 
> I have one of Bonnie's retirees. She just turned 9 and is as healthy and spry as a puppy.


Thank you. We are going to take our time, and my hubby suggested that I wait until the Texas monsoons of early spring are over.. He says we have tried to train every puppy with an umbrella in hand, then it doesn't rain for months afterwards. And that we end up with dogs who absolutely HATE to go outdoors when it rains. He's right. Heck, like he says, he's the rocket scientist in the family ( an aerospace engineer). 

I hope we have long lived Malts with us like your sassy 9 year old.. I was looking at our adult girl's pedigree online last night ( our huge copy is in the safe) and realized that she is one year older than I had thought She's 6, not 5.. time flies and all that.. Also, she was whelped by Jacob Maltese, and I googled, and they are in my home state.  We were bred and born in the deep South.

I was laughing and playing with her when I told her last night, and she started talking to me, and doing her happy dance. She was the CUTEST little girlie girl Just a born champion of the ring, and mostly, of our hearts.  

Lilly


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## ParisandRio

mysugarbears said:


> From my own personal experience i wouldn't buy a pup from Bonnie Palmer.


I truly appreciate you speaking out and sharing your personal point of view. Thank you!
Lilly


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## lori

mysugarbears said:


> From my own personal experience i wouldn't buy a pup from Bonnie Palmer.


 
Bonnie Palmer?? Been there. Done that. NEVER AGAIN!!


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## k/c mom

Carole said:


> *I have been very blessed with both my breeders and both my Maltese. Bella 7 1/2 years from DIVINE in Lousiana.... and Krista 5 years from PASHES in TEXAS. *
> 
> *Since you are looking for a breeder from TEXAS I will post a picture of my Krista. There have also been many other great suggestion of well respected Maltese breeders throughout this thread.:thumbsup:*
> 
> 
> Pashes Maltese - Home of Top Winning Maltese dogs and Maltese puppies.


Oh, gosh, Carole, she is breathtaking!!! :wub:


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## MaryH

ParisandRio said:


> Thank you. We are going to take our time, and my hubby suggested that I wait until the Texas monsoons of early spring are over.. He says we have tried to train every puppy with an umbrella in hand, then it doesn't rain for months afterwards. And that we end up with dogs who absolutely HATE to go outdoors when it rains. He's right. Heck, like he says, he's the rocket scientist in the family ( an aerospace engineer).
> 
> I hope we have long lived Malts with us like your sassy 9 year old.. I was looking at our adult girl's pedigree online last night ( our huge copy is in the safe) and realized that she is one year older than I had thought She's 6, not 5.. time flies and all that.. Also, she was whelped by Jacob Maltese, and I googled, and they are in my home state.  We were bred and born in the deep South.
> 
> I was laughing and playing with her when I told her last night, and she started talking to me, and doing her happy dance. She was the CUTEST little girlie girl Just a born champion of the ring, and mostly, of our hearts.
> 
> Lilly


Lilly, if you are going to wait until springtime you might want to think about attending the upcoming Maltese Specialty show. It's being held in Fort Worth at the end of April 2011 and will definitely provide you the opportunity to see many dogs and meet and speak with breeders from all over the country. Some will be AMA members, some not, some with larger breeding programs, some with smaller breeding programs. One thing is for sure, you will see many many beautiful dogs.


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## CloudClan

ParisandRio said:


> Thank you. We are going to take our time, and my hubby suggested that I wait until the Texas monsoons of early spring are over.. He says we have tried to train every puppy with an umbrella in hand, then it doesn't rain for months afterwards. And that we end up with dogs who absolutely HATE to go outdoors when it rains. He's right. Heck, like he says, he's the rocket scientist in the family ( an aerospace engineer).
> 
> I hope we have long lived Malts with us like your sassy 9 year old.. I was looking at our adult girl's pedigree online last night ( our huge copy is in the safe) and realized that she is one year older than I had thought She's 6, not 5.. time flies and all that.. Also, she was whelped by Jacob Maltese, and I googled, and they are in my home state.  We were bred and born in the deep South.
> 
> I was laughing and playing with her when I told her last night, and she started talking to me, and doing her happy dance. She was the CUTEST little girlie girl Just a born champion of the ring, and mostly, of our hearts.
> 
> Lilly


Is your adult girl: Darla? If so, she is Cadeau's half sister. They share the same sire. I have two Jacob dogs and could not be more thrilled with Debbie and her dogs. She has a few friends in AL who are now working with her lines as she has scaled back. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss these wonderful folks in AL. 





MaryH said:


> Lilly, if you are going to wait until springtime you might want to think about attending the upcoming Maltese Specialty show. It's being held in Fort Worth at the end of April 2011 and will definitely provide you the opportunity to see many dogs and meet and speak with breeders from all over the country. Some will be AMA members, some not, some with larger breeding programs, some with smaller breeding programs. One thing is for sure, you will see many many beautiful dogs.


This is an excellent suggestion. Many of us will be at the Specialty and it is a great place to meet Maltese breeders from near and far.


----------



## Starsmom

MaryH said:


> Lilly, if you are going to wait until springtime you might want to think about attending the upcoming Maltese Specialty show. It's being held in Fort Worth at the end of April 2011 and will definitely provide you the opportunity to see many dogs and meet and speak with breeders from all over the country. Some will be AMA members, some not, some with larger breeding programs, some with smaller breeding programs. One thing is for sure, you will see many many beautiful dogs.


Yes, I mentioned this early on in this thread, but that was 3 pages and 90+ posts ago.


----------



## coco

Lori said:


> Bonnie Palmer?? Been there. Done that. NEVER AGAIN!!


That's too bad. My Coco is from Bonnie, and she is healthy and beautiful. She's got a wonderful disposition, better than any dog I've ever had. Our 2nd dog is from Tajon, and she is also a lovely dog. They definitely have different personalities. Coco is much more laid back than Lola, our Tajon pup. Tajon is closer to you, so I'd definitely talk with her. We drove up to pick up Lola, and it took us about 4 hours or so. I would never have a dog shipped to me, as I want to see what I'm buying. I have to say that once you get puppy fever, it's hard to walk away, but I had choices both times I picked my dogs since I was in the breeders' homes.

I would recommend either breeder. I have found that they, my dogs, are both better as only dogs than as siblings. :-( My dogs don't like one another much, so that's been an issue. It has nothing at all to do with the Bonnie or Tammy.


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## Cosy

LOL Cosy comes from Bonnie too, as well as Toy. Both have different personalities but wonderful dogs. I'm sorry if some weren't satisfied with their dog. I would hope they realized it and would have taken them back. I surely would have if I was unhappy.


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## Sandcastles

Cosy said:


> LOL Cosy comes from Bonnie too, as well as Toy. Both have different personalities but wonderful dogs. I'm sorry if some weren't satisfied with their dog. I would hope they realized it and would have taken them back. I surely would have if I was unhappy.


I have always thought that Cosy looks like Pat's Ava - they have that same, sweet, adorable look about them.


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## Delilahs Mommy

I am so sorry about your loss  We got our beloved Delilah from Jacob Maltese in Alabama and I couldn't be more than thrilled and pleased with our breeder and her pups. Carina of CloudClan Maltese is the owner of my Delilah's sire- she is on this forum as well and maybe able to tell you more about an available boy puppies. I wish you the best of luck in your search for the perfect puppy!


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## jmm

I have a Ta-Jon dog whom I adore. I also have a Jacob dog. My Jacob dog has ended up having some serious health issues, nothing genetic. Debbie has always been there and very concerned about him. She has gone above and beyond her commitments based on the contract we signed. I can't say enough positive about my experience with her. She stands behind her dogs 150%. Roo has such a lovely face and amazing temperament. We wouldn't trade him for the world. I wouldn't hesitate to deal with Debbie again or those Carina recommends who are continuing her line.


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## ParisandRio

MaryH said:


> Lilly, if you are going to wait until springtime you might want to think about attending the upcoming Maltese Specialty show. It's being held in Fort Worth at the end of April 2011 and will definitely provide you the opportunity to see many dogs and meet and speak with breeders from all over the country. Some will be AMA members, some not, some with larger breeding programs, some with smaller breeding programs. One thing is for sure, you will see many many beautiful dogs.


Thank you for the excellent suggestion. I will be like a child in a candy store, at least in my heart, . Our Bella retains many mannerisms she learned in the show ring. I would like to see how the dogs are cued and handled. She seems to really enjoy showing us her " champion" stance and moves. We had no clue it was still a part of her memories. 
Hugs!!
Lilly


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## ParisandRio

CloudClan said:


> Is your adult girl: Darla? If so, she is Cadeau's half sister. They share the same sire. I have two Jacob dogs and could not be more thrilled with Debbie and her dogs. She has a few friends in AL who are now working with her lines as she has scaled back. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss these wonderful folks in AL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent suggestion. Many of us will be at the Specialty and it is a great place to meet Maltese breeders from near and far.


Oh, yes!! . I finally found out what the " Jacob" in our girl's pedigree name meant from seeing someone's fluff name on here, and the notation from Jacob Maltese. It all CLICKED, and I Googled, and found Debbie. Yes, will PM you. 
The ironies are totally awesome!!  She was meant to be my girl.. 
Hugs,
Lilly


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## lori

I am glad to hear that you are happy with your dog from Bonnie. Sadly, my pup from her is terribly fearful. His trainer, who has been training dogs for over 25 years, feels that he was under socialized when he came to me. He has been working with her for over 6 months now and he is still not done. I love him with all of my heart and I have dedicated myself to helping him overcome his fear.



coco said:


> That's too bad. My Coco is from Bonnie, and she is healthy and beautiful. She's got a wonderful disposition, better than any dog I've ever had. Our 2nd dog is from Tajon, and she is also a lovely dog. They definitely have different personalities. Coco is much more laid back than Lola, our Tajon pup. Tajon is closer to you, so I'd definitely talk with her. We drove up to pick up Lola, and it took us about 4 hours or so. I would never have a dog shipped to me, as I want to see what I'm buying. I have to say that once you get puppy fever, it's hard to walk away, but I had choices both times I picked my dogs since I was in the breeders' homes.
> 
> I would recommend either breeder. I have found that they, my dogs, are both better as only dogs than as siblings. :-( My dogs don't like one another much, so that's been an issue. It has nothing at all to do with the Bonnie or Tammy.


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## lori

Brit,
I gave birth to 4 wonderful children. Thankfully, they were all born healthy. God forbid if one of them were born with a problem, I sure as heck wouldn't have given them away. I feel the same way about my dogs.




Cosy said:


> LOL Cosy comes from Bonnie too, as well as Toy. Both have different personalities but wonderful dogs. I'm sorry if some weren't satisfied with their dog. I would hope they realized it and would have taken them back. I surely would have if I was unhappy.


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## Cosy

Sorry, Lori. When I pay 3k for a dog and it is not as it was suppose to be from the breeder, I return it. It is not the same as having children to me. I believe you said he wasn't biting when you first got him. If you didn't see problems at first, of course you wouldn't take him back.


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## lori

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Brit!! I treat my dogs like they are my children. In fact, if you asked my kids, they would tell you I treat the dogs better than I treat them!!! :wub:

QUOTE=Cosy;1856098]Sorry, Lori. When I pay 3k for a dog and it is not as it was suppose to be from the breeder, I return it. It is not the same as having children to me. I believe you said he wasn't biting when you first got him. If you didn't see problems at first, of course you wouldn't take him back.[/QUOTE]


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## Tina

Lori said:


> I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Brit!! I treat my dogs like they are my children. In fact, if you asked my kids, they would tell you I treat the dogs better than I treat them!!! :wub:
> 
> LOL My family says the same thing about me and my dogs. In fact, my daughter was telling her oldest son that Nikki should be considered his Uncle. Nikki is my very first Maltese. My grandson was born about 6 months after I brought Nikki home. I had a grooming shop and my grandson spent a lot of time with me there. My dogs are very important to me.


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## mysugarbears

Lori said:


> I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Brit!! I treat my dogs like they are my children. In fact, if you asked my kids, they would tell you I treat the dogs better than I treat them!!! :wub:
> 
> QUOTE=Cosy;1856098]Sorry, Lori. When I pay 3k for a dog and it is not as it was suppose to be from the breeder, I return it. It is not the same as having children to me. I believe you said he wasn't biting when you first got him. If you didn't see problems at first, of course you wouldn't take him back.


[/QUOTE]



Tina said:


> Lori said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Brit!! I treat my dogs like they are my children. In fact, if you asked my kids, they would tell you I treat the dogs better than I treat them!!! :wub:
> 
> LOL My family says the same thing about me and my dogs. In fact, my daughter was telling her oldest son that Nikki should be considered his Uncle. Nikki is my very first Maltese. My grandson was born about 6 months after I brought Nikki home. I had a grooming shop and my grandson spent a lot of time with me there. My dogs are very important to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My dogs and my cats have always been like my kids, they are my kids with furcoats. :wub: My mom's cats are my brothers and sisters and when she had a rabbit he was my brother. When her rabbit died i told people that my brother the rabbit died and they just looked at me. :blush: My husband and i call the cats and pups our kids and my son calls them his brothers and sisters. I wish i could claim them at Tax time. :w00t:
Click to expand...


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## Cosy

I'm sure if dogs could talk they'd say we treat the kids better than them.  I love dogs but I love my kids even more. (I have five)


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## coco

It depends on what day it is which I love better. LOL! I can remember days I wished I could send my kids back. Lucky for us that most breeders want their dogs to be in happy places and tell us that if it isn't working out they want them back. I've been in Bonnie's home several times, and I've seen her pups playing together. I've seen her playing with and grooming her pups and her older dogs. You are the first person I've ever heard mention a problem like this. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'm finding it to be difficult to understand knowing how Bonnie cares for her dogs. 

OTOH, my dog from Tammy was all over the place playing with littermates and other pups when I went to get her. I chose her because she seemed so well-adjusted and loving. She was terrified of her own shadow when I got her home, but she's getting better. She acted as though she couldn't trust men. I'm not sure her fearfulness of people, noises, etc., had a thing to do with socialization or with Tammy's breeding. 
Dogs, like kids, have their own personalities and issues.


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## princessre

coco said:


> Dogs, like kids, have their own personalities and issues.


I could not agree with Mary Ann more. I think it's great to do research, and great to meet breeders, and great to go visit them. But like Mary Ann said, each pup (like each child and each human) has her own personality and her own mind. 

It took me awhile to realize that breeders are not God-- they do not produce perfectly uniform packages of PUP with identically sweet looks and dispositions just because they are famous breeders. I have met so many Maltese in NYC from all the "top" breeders. The more Malts I meet, the more difficult it has been to generalize what X breeder's dogs look like or what Y breeder's dogs act like. There is such a wide range of looks and temperaments because dogs are unique living beings-- they do not come shrink wrapped with a bow on top with the name of the breeder stamped on their forehead. Just like how parents can frequently raise multiple kids the same way but the kids turn out with totally different personalities, of course breeders can socialize their pups similarly and get all different temperaments. 

So what could be better than to get the breeder you have selected to agree to at least a 2 week evaluation period -- not just for the vet's check up, but for personality and compatibility with you and your family. (I know Bonnie happily offered me a whole month at home with Casanova to make up my mind). And then try to ignore and not just fall in love with all the cute puppy antics on your new prospective pet. *LISTEN TO THE PUP WHEN SHE TELLS YOU WHO SHE IS.* Get a trainer to evaluate her temperament if you can't tell what she's like. Ask yourself whether she would be a good companion to you in your lifestyle and for what you are looking for specifically. I have done both private and group obedience training with my pups, and I can tell you that while my pups have changed around the margins, their fundamental disposition is the same as when they came home the first day. I personally believe that pups and babies all have a mind of their own, and they just pop out a certain way-- in a strong way. My babies have not changed all that much over time. 

I don't believe that returning a pup means you don't love animals like you love family. I think sometimes when you realize it's not a good fit, you are loving a pet more by letting her go to another home that she is better suited for. After all, Malts are companion animals They are most fulfilled when they feel that you are extremely happy with them.

I'm so sorry to anyone who has kept a dog they are not 100% satisfied with, regardless of breeder. I returned my first pup from a top breeder because he was never going to be the tender and sweet lap dog that I wanted. Did I blame the breeder at the time? You betcha! Do I blame the breeder now? No way. She took the dog back even though she never agreed to an evaluation period-- she cared about the happiness of the dog above all else. To me, that and health are basically what you goto a top breeder for. So yes, meet the breeder, goto her house, do the research. But don't forget to live with your puppy, make sure you are happy with your puppy, communicate with your breeder if you are unhappy...And if what you don't like about your puppy will bother you tremendously if it doesn't change, I personally would not assume that it will change over time. Really, evaluating the compatibility of the puppy is our responsibility and ours alone.

ps: Lilly :grouphug: I'm so sorry for your loss.

Lori - :grouphug: I'm sorry that you are having trouble with your pup. I remember that you reached out to me when you were thinking about getting Casanova's brother awhile ago? And I was perfectly honest in telling you that Casanova loves humans, and is super sweet and tender. He loves children and babies, and cannot stop kissing them. (He hates most other dogs, though, but that wasn't as important to me as how affectionate and outgoing he was around humans.) I'm so sorry that you had an unhappy experience.


----------



## MaryH

princessre said:


> It took me awhile to realize that breeders are not God-- they do not produce perfectly uniform packages of PUP with identically sweet looks and dispositions just because they are famous breeders.





> I returned my first pup from a top breeder because he was never going to be the tender and sweet lap dog that I wanted. Did I blame the breeder at the time? You betcha! Do I blame the breeder now? No way. She took the dog back even though she never agreed to an evaluation period-- she cared about the happiness of the dog above all else. To me, that and health are basically what you goto a top breeder for.





> Really, evaluating the compatibility of the puppy is our responsibility and ours alone.


Great post, Sophia. I would like to add one more thought. Deciding what is important when buying a dog is an individual thing and should be the FIRST STEP in the process of getting a dog. What's important to me may not be important to someone else. My list in order of importance might be health first, then price, structure next, then temperament, then type, lastly breeder support. But this would be MY list based on MY desires/goals/lifestyle. Your list might be completely different, as it should be. Getting a dog is not "one size fits all" and no one gets it all. That would be the perfect dog from the perfect breeder and neither exist.


----------



## princessre

MaryH said:


> Great post, Sophia. I would like to add one more thought. Deciding what is important when buying a dog is an individual thing and should be the FIRST STEP in the process of getting a dog. What's important to me may not be important to someone else. My list in order of importance might be health first, then price, structure next, then temperament, then type, lastly breeder support. But this would be MY list based on MY desires/goals/lifestyle. Your list might be completely different, as it should be. Getting a dog is not "one size fits all" and no one gets it all. That would be the perfect dog from the perfect breeder and neither exist.


I totally agree with what you said, Mary. Everyone is looking for something different, as it should be. And even if we all wanted the same thing, we might be thinking of different things while we say we all want the same thing. 

If I say, "I want a sweet dog," the breeder might pick a dog for me that she thinks is sweet. Yet when I get her home, I might feel that she is sweet as in a kind and good-natured with tongue hanging out kind of way. But I might also realize that I actually wanted "sweet" in a baby-like hang in your lap all day kind of way. Or conversely, the breeder may pick another sweet pup, but when I get her home, I feel that she is too clingy and won't thrive in a home where both people work during the day. So the "sweet" that I wanted was sweet in a kind-hearted, greet me at the door, polite to other dogs, but somewhat independent kind of way. 

Even if I say I prefer a short muzzle and wideset eyes, the breeder might look at the head and say, "This pup has a short muzzle and wideset eyes." Well, short muzzle and wideset eyes are totally subjective too. Shorter than what, wider than what? What's short, average, and long, narrow, average, wide? There is subjectivity in all of this, and sometimes we blame the breeder when they are not mind readers. 

This is why I say evaluate the dog when you get her home. I don't think I could really return a dog for appearance once I got her home, but I would surely return a dog if I could and if her personality weren't a good fit. For everyone's sake.


----------



## Maltbabe

Lori said:


> I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Brit!! I treat my dogs like they are my children. In fact, if you asked my kids, they would tell you I treat the dogs better than I treat them!!! :wub:
> 
> LOL same here!!!!:aktion033::aktion033::aktion033:


----------



## lori

Great posts Sophia and Mary. I completely agree that breeders are not Gods. They are no more perfect than we are. I would never expect to find the perfect pup from any breeder, anymore than I would expect to find the perfect human. However, I DO expect to find honesty in breeders. 

My first Maltese is from a small breeder. When I asked her to describe his personality, she told me that he was very laid back. She also told me that all of his pigment didn't come in on his little nose. When I first met him, yep, he sure was laid back and not all of his pigment was on his sweet little nose. Just as I had expected. No surprises. When I decided to go with Bonnie for my second pup, unfortunately I wasn't able to fly out to meet her or her pups. As an experienced, reputable breeder I expected that she would be able to evaluate my pup's temperament accurately. I expected nothing less than honesty. Not too much to ask, right? When I asked her what his personality was like, she told me that he is "very outgoing". Perfect. Just what I wanted. Mind you, I didn't get him until he was 16 weeks because he was still too small at 12 weeks. She had more than enough time to properly evaluate his temperament. Yes, many things can be subjective such as physical features but "very outgoing"??? Hmmmm.....I really can't see how THAT could be subjective, but heck, what do I know? I'm sure as heck not a breeder but in MY world, outgoing is just that, outgoing. When I picked him up at the airport and opened up his little crate, my heart melted and I was in love. I couldn't have loved him any more if I tried. When I brought him home, was he outgoing? Nope. Did I send him packing on the next flight out? No way. I figured that if my breeder told me he was outgoing, then he must be outgoing. I had read somewhere (perhaps it was here on SM) that a new pup needs time to adjust to his new surroundings. Well, I thought, surely this must be it. He just needs some time to warm up. However, as time went on, he didn't get any more outgoing, in fact, he got worse. Meanwhile, my children, my husband and myself are head over heels in love with this little guy. It NEVER occured to me that I should send him back. I thought to myself, "my breeder will know what's going on here and she will give me the advice to guide me through this." I sent her an email describing what's going on and anxiously await her response. Her response was "find a good trainer". Hmmmmm.....not the response I was hoping for. Was I disappointed? You bet. When I asked her if she wanted me to keep in touch and let her know how he was doing with his new trainer, I got absolutely no response. So perhaps now you can understand why I didn't just send him back. Would he be better suited in another home? I sincerely doubt it. I have dedicated myself to making his little life less fearful. I will go to every trainer in the tri-state area if I have to. I will not give up until I succeed. No, he may NEVER be an outgoing pup, but I am ok with that. 

Would I have sent him back if I opened the crate at the airport and he snapped and bit me? You betcha. At the end of the day, all that really matters is that he is loved beyond words and I will do whatever it takes to makes his world a happier place. All I had hoped for and expected from a top tier, reputable breeder was an honest evaluation of her pup because I could not be there to do it myself. Have I learned a lesson from all of this? You bet.


----------



## k/c mom

Lori said:


> Great posts Sophia and Mary. I completely agree that breeders are not Gods. They are no more perfect than we are. I would never expect to find the perfect pup from any breeder, anymore than I would expect to find the perfect human. However, I DO expect to find honesty in breeders.
> 
> My first Maltese is from a small breeder. When I asked her to describe his personality, she told me that he was very laid back. She also told me that all of his pigment didn't come in on his little nose. When I first met him, yep, he sure was laid back and not all of his pigment was on his sweet little nose. Just as I had expected. No surprises. When I decided to go with Bonnie for my second pup, unfortunately I wasn't able to fly out to meet her or her pups. As an experienced, reputable breeder I expected that she would be able to evaluate my pup's temperament accurately. I expected nothing less than honesty. Not too much to ask, right? When I asked her what his personality was like, she told me that he is "very outgoing". Perfect. Just what I wanted. Mind you, I didn't get him until he was 16 weeks because he was still too small at 12 weeks. She had more than enough time to properly evaluate his temperament. Yes, many things can be subjective such as physical features but "very outgoing"??? Hmmmm.....I really can't see how THAT could be subjective, but heck, what do I know? I'm sure as heck not a breeder but in MY world, outgoing is just that, outgoing. When I picked him up at the airport and opened up his little crate, my heart melted and I was in love. I couldn't have loved him any more if I tried. When I brought him home, was he outgoing? Nope. Did I send him packing on the next flight out? No way. I figured that if my breeder told me he was outgoing, then he must be outgoing. I had read somewhere (perhaps it was here on SM) that a new pup needs time to adjust to his new surroundings. Well, I thought, surely this must be it. He just needs some time to warm up. However, as time went on, he didn't get any more outgoing, in fact, he got worse. Meanwhile, my children, my husband and myself are head over heels in love with this little guy. It NEVER occured to me that I should send him back. I thought to myself, "my breeder will know what's going on here and she will give me the advice to guide me through this." I sent her an email describing what's going on and anxiously await her response. Her response was "find a good trainer". Hmmmmm.....not the response I was hoping for. Was I disappointed? You bet. When I asked her if she wanted me to keep in touch and let her know how he was doing with his new trainer, I got absolutely no response. So perhaps now you can understand why I didn't just send him back. Would he be better suited in another home? I sincerely doubt it. I have dedicated myself to making his little life less fearful. I will go to every trainer in the tri-state area if I have to. I will not give up until I succeed. No, he may NEVER be an outgoing pup, but I am ok with that.
> 
> Would I have sent him back if I opened the crate at the airport and he snapped and bit me? You betcha. At the end of the day, all that really matters is that he is loved beyond words and I will do whatever it takes to makes his world a happier place. All I had hoped for and expected from a top tier, reputable breeder was an honest evaluation of her pup because I could not be there to do it myself. Have I learned a lesson from all of this? You bet.


Lori, you express yourself so well and what you say makes total sense. Maybe personality can be considered subjective in some situations ... but there are plenty of issues that other members have had that are not subjective at all. I wish they would speak out.


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## MaryH

Lori said:


> Great posts Sophia and Mary. I completely agree that breeders are not Gods. They are no more perfect than we are. I would never expect to find the perfect pup from any breeder, anymore than I would expect to find the perfect human. However, I DO expect to find honesty in breeders.
> 
> My first Maltese is from a small breeder. When I asked her to describe his personality, she told me that he was very laid back. She also told me that all of his pigment didn't come in on his little nose. When I first met him, yep, he sure was laid back and not all of his pigment was on his sweet little nose. Just as I had expected. No surprises. When I decided to go with Bonnie for my second pup, unfortunately I wasn't able to fly out to meet her or her pups. As an experienced, reputable breeder I expected that she would be able to evaluate my pup's temperament accurately. I expected nothing less than honesty. Not too much to ask, right? When I asked her what his personality was like, she told me that he is "very outgoing". Perfect. Just what I wanted. Mind you, I didn't get him until he was 16 weeks because he was still too small at 12 weeks. She had more than enough time to properly evaluate his temperament. Yes, many things can be subjective such as physical features but "very outgoing"??? Hmmmm.....I really can't see how THAT could be subjective, but heck, what do I know? I'm sure as heck not a breeder but in MY world, outgoing is just that, outgoing. When I picked him up at the airport and opened up his little crate, my heart melted and I was in love. I couldn't have loved him any more if I tried. When I brought him home, was he outgoing? Nope. Did I send him packing on the next flight out? No way. I figured that if my breeder told me he was outgoing, then he must be outgoing. I had read somewhere (perhaps it was here on SM) that a new pup needs time to adjust to his new surroundings. Well, I thought, surely this must be it. He just needs some time to warm up. However, as time went on, he didn't get any more outgoing, in fact, he got worse. Meanwhile, my children, my husband and myself are head over heels in love with this little guy. It NEVER occured to me that I should send him back. I thought to myself, "my breeder will know what's going on here and she will give me the advice to guide me through this." I sent her an email describing what's going on and anxiously await her response. Her response was "find a good trainer". Hmmmmm.....not the response I was hoping for. Was I disappointed? You bet. When I asked her if she wanted me to keep in touch and let her know how he was doing with his new trainer, I got absolutely no response. So perhaps now you can understand why I didn't just send him back. Would he be better suited in another home? I sincerely doubt it. I have dedicated myself to making his little life less fearful. I will go to every trainer in the tri-state area if I have to. I will not give up until I succeed. No, he may NEVER be an outgoing pup, but I am ok with that.
> 
> Would I have sent him back if I opened the crate at the airport and he snapped and bit me? You betcha. At the end of the day, all that really matters is that he is loved beyond words and I will do whatever it takes to makes his world a happier place. All I had hoped for and expected from a top tier, reputable breeder was an honest evaluation of her pup because I could not be there to do it myself. Have I learned a lesson from all of this? You bet.


Hi Lori,

I understand where you are coming from but can't really advise because I haven't seen your dog and my definition of "laid back" and "outgoing" may be different from yours or from your breeder's. That's where the subjectiveness comes into it. If you and your breeder are on the same page about what "outgoing" means then, yes, by 12 weeks old I would think she should be able to evaluate temperament. I have a litter of 10-week old puppies here, 2 boys and 2 girls. I love the look of one of the little boys and will keep him for now to see what he grows into. From the time he was born I liked the look of this little guy. At about 6 weeks old he started to appear softer in temperament than the others. I would reach into the pen to take them out to play with and he didn't come flying over to me like the others, in fact he'd back away from me into the far corner of his bed. I'm not used to that and immediately thought "okay, pal, time to start acting like a big, brave boy." At least a couple of times a day I'd take him alone to another room and let him roam around and explore. At first he'd hang right by my feet and I'd pretend to ignore him while I checked email, etc. Little by little he started roaming around and exploring. Then I started sitting on the floor to play with him, tickle him, push him away from me, watch him come running back, added some toys to the mix, and nows he's outgoing and confident just like the rest of the gang. Would he have grown to be like that anyway? I don't know but I didn't want to leave it to chance. Here's the catch (and this is not directed at you) ... I describe them as outgoing. You might describe them as cuckoo. I think they are very confident and independent because each one is willing to go off and explore on its own. You might think they are solitary. What I don't know is how to really close the gap between my thinking and yours. I know not everybody can go see a dog in person but there can be an honest disconnect at times. In the event that my little guy did not come out of his shell, I would be saying to you "He's 10 weeks old and very soft, not nearly as confident and outgoing as his siblings. I've worked with him and have not seen much (or any) improvement and would guess that while he may become more confident with age, there is the chance that he will always be a softie. If "laid back" is at the very top of your list please come visit with us so that you can be sure we are on the same page. If "outgoing" is what you want I'd advise you to continue to search for a little one who sounds more like what you want."


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## Cosy

MaryH said:


> Hi Lori,
> 
> I understand where you are coming from but can't really advise because I haven't seen your dog and my definition of "laid back" and "outgoing" may be different from yours or from your breeder's. That's where the subjectiveness comes into it. If you and your breeder are on the same page about what "outgoing" means then, yes, by 12 weeks old I would think she should be able to evaluate temperament. I have a litter of 10-week old puppies here, 2 boys and 2 girls. I love the look of one of the little boys and will keep him for now to see what he grows into. From the time he was born I liked the look of this little guy. At about 6 weeks old he started to appear softer in temperament than the others. I would reach into the pen to take them out to play with and he didn't come flying over to me like the others, in fact he'd back away from me into the far corner of his bed. I'm not used to that and immediately thought "okay, pal, time to start acting like a big, brave boy." At least a couple of times a day I'd take him alone to another room and let him roam around and explore. At first he'd hang right by my feet and I'd pretend to ignore him while I checked email, etc. Little by little he started roaming around and exploring. Then I started sitting on the floor to play with him, tickle him, push him away from me, watch him come running back, added some toys to the mix, and nows he's outgoing and confident just like the rest of the gang. Would he have grown to be like that anyway? I don't know but I didn't want to leave it to chance. Here's the catch (and this is not directed at you) ... I describe them as outgoing. You might describe them as cuckoo. I think they are very confident and independent because each one is willing to go off and explore on its own. You might think they are solitary. What I don't know is how to really close the gap between my thinking and yours. I know not everybody can go see a dog in person but there can be an honest disconnect at times. In the event that my little guy did not come out of his shell, I would be saying to you "He's 10 weeks old and very soft, not nearly as confident and outgoing as his siblings. I've worked with him and have not seen much (or any) improvement and would guess that while he may become more confident with age, there is the chance that he will always be a softie. If "laid back" is at the very top of your list please come visit with us so that you can be sure we are on the same page. If "outgoing" is what you want I'd advise you to continue to search for a little one who sounds more like what you want."


 That's an excellent example of perceptions and miscommunication, Mary! Thank you for posting this. :aktion033:


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## princessre

MaryH said:


> Hi Lori,
> 
> I understand where you are coming from but can't really advise because I haven't seen your dog and my definition of "laid back" and "outgoing" may be different from yours or from your breeder's. That's where the subjectiveness comes into it. If you and your breeder are on the same page about what "outgoing" means then, yes, by 12 weeks old I would think she should be able to evaluate temperament. I have a litter of 10-week old puppies here, 2 boys and 2 girls. I love the look of one of the little boys and will keep him for now to see what he grows into. From the time he was born I liked the look of this little guy. At about 6 weeks old he started to appear softer in temperament than the others. I would reach into the pen to take them out to play with and he didn't come flying over to me like the others, in fact he'd back away from me into the far corner of his bed. I'm not used to that and immediately thought "okay, pal, time to start acting like a big, brave boy." At least a couple of times a day I'd take him alone to another room and let him roam around and explore. At first he'd hang right by my feet and I'd pretend to ignore him while I checked email, etc. Little by little he started roaming around and exploring. Then I started sitting on the floor to play with him, tickle him, push him away from me, watch him come running back, added some toys to the mix, and nows he's outgoing and confident just like the rest of the gang. Would he have grown to be like that anyway? I don't know but I didn't want to leave it to chance. Here's the catch (and this is not directed at you) ... I describe them as outgoing. You might describe them as cuckoo. I think they are very confident and independent because each one is willing to go off and explore on its own. You might think they are solitary. What I don't know is how to really close the gap between my thinking and yours. I know not everybody can go see a dog in person but there can be an honest disconnect at times. In the event that my little guy did not come out of his shell, I would be saying to you "He's 10 weeks old and very soft, not nearly as confident and outgoing as his siblings. I've worked with him and have not seen much (or any) improvement and would guess that while he may become more confident with age, there is the chance that he will always be a softie. If "laid back" is at the very top of your list please come visit with us so that you can be sure we are on the same page. If "outgoing" is what you want I'd advise you to continue to search for a little one who sounds more like what you want."


:aktion033: Great post, Mary. 

Once I flew to California to pick up a gorgeous girl pup from a breeder there. Since she was two years old, I asked the breeder beforehand if she was well-socialized and friendly. The breeder said yes. I flew from NY to California, met the breeder, met the dog, and was utterly shocked. The dog was quivering, and appeared to me to be totally fearful and shy. 

I was a little discontented with the breeder. I told her at the airport that I thought the dog was so so so shy, and the breeder said, "No, I would not call her shy. She is quivering because it's her first time in an airport." I said, "I've never seen this before. My dog is so excited to go to any new place. He never shakes and kisses everyone. She is shaking, she doesn't like me, she isn't kissing me." The breeder said, "If you think this dog is shy, then what you want isn't just 'friendly' and 'well-socialized' like you said. What you want is 'extremely outgoing.' Your Casanova sounds like an extremely outgoing dog. I understand that you don't want this dog now, but I hope this advice helps you in your search." 

Well, honestly, I was a little bit upset, and maybe felt for a couple days that the breeder might have misrepresented her personality. But in retrospect, my only reference point was Casanova, and I never realized before this that Casanova is a huge ho!! It is true that he will make out with ANYONE for hours, and then he might even go home with them at the end! But honestly before my conversation with this breeder, I thought he was just normal friendly because my reference point was different from the breeder's. Was I upset that I travelled for 15 hours to see a dog for 5 minutes to end up with no dog? You bet I was. But did I learn that sometimes there can be that "honest disconnect" that Mary talks about between breeder and buyer? Most definitely!!


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## MaryH

princessre said:


> But honestly before my conversation with this breeder, I thought he was just normal friendly because my reference point was different from the breeder's. Was I upset that I travelled for 15 hours to see a dog for 5 minutes to end up with no dog? You bet I was. But did I learn that sometimes there can be that "honest disconnect" that Mary talks about between breeder and buyer? Most definitely!!


Good point, Sophia. There will always be an element of subjectiveness ... "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." But there's a black and white aspect, too. Complete pigment? Coat color? Age? Parentage? Fontanel? Tearstaining? Debarking? Those are definites, no two ways about it. Buying a puppy is not one size fits all. Selling a puppy is no day at the beach either. My personal choice is not to sell a puppy sight unseen; I'm a "whatcha see is whatcha get" kind of person. Most importantly, I want the dogs to be happy and I want the humans to be happy and when one is happy generally the other is, too. :smootch:


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## edelweiss

What a terrific thread! Such good information and so balanced! :clap::clap: This type of exchange is one of the main reasons why I keep coming back to SM.


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## elly

edelweiss said:


> What a terrific thread! Such good information and so balanced! :clap::clap: This type of exchange is one of the main reasons why I keep coming back to SM.


I agree:aktion033:


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## lori

Mary, you are definitely a "whatcha see is whatcha get" kinda person!! I love that. You tell it like it is, no room for misunderstanding. You are clearly doing your job as a breeder by evaluating your pups temperaments and adjusting their socialization accordingly. I applaude you for that:aktion033:

I think my original point of being told my dog was outgoing got lost somewhere in the subjectiveness of the word. The word outgoing is defined according to dictionary.com is:

interested in and responsive to others; friendly; sociable: _an outgoing personality_

_I am pretty sure that a dog who lunges, barks, growls and air snaps doesn't fit that definition. Correct me if I am wrong._

_You can spin the definition in anyway you want. However, IMHO, a dog WITH A GENETICALLY SOUND TEMPERAMENT DOES NOT go from once being described as "outgoing" to fearful when placed in a warm, loving environment while being showered with love, attention and affection._


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## lori

k/c mom said:


> Lori, you express yourself so well and what you say makes total sense. Maybe personality can be considered subjective in some situations ... but there are plenty of issues that other members have had that are not subjective at all. I wish they would speak out.


 
Thank you, Sher. Yes, there are definitely other members who have had issues and I, too, wish they would find their voice and speak up. Today is Veteran's Day and we have all of our wonderful servicemen and women to thank for our great country. They fought and continue to fight for our freedom. One of those wonderful things they fought for is the freedom of speech. Let's not be afraid to use it.


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## MaryH

Lori said:


> _I am pretty sure that a dog who lunges, barks, growls and air snaps doesn't fit that definition. Correct me if I am wrong._


Lori, here's the perfect "communication disconnect." You consistently have been saying "fearful" and I have been envisioning a dog who doesn't want to come out of his crate, runs behind the sofa to hide, shakes and shudders at the sound of the vacuum cleaner, hair dryer or garbage disposal. The description above goes well beyond my idea of "fearful" but again, I've not seen him in action. God bless you for hanging in there with this little guy.


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## Ladysmom

Lori said:


> Thank you, Sher. Yes, there are definitely other members who have had issues and I, too, wish they would find their voice and speak up. Today is Veteran's Day and we have all of our wonderful servicemen and women to thank for our great country. They fought and continue to fight for our freedom. One of those wonderful things they fought for is the freedom of speech. Let's not be afraid to use it.


Lori, kudos for you for being the first one to speak out. 

As Sher said earlier, you have told your story in a very articulate and forthright manner. Hopefully the others will follow your lead.


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## princessre

Lori said:


> Mary, you are definitely a "whatcha see is whatcha get" kinda person!! I love that. You tell it like it is, no room for misunderstanding. You are clearly doing your job as a breeder by evaluating your pups temperaments and adjusting their socialization accordingly. I applaude you for that:aktion033:
> 
> I think my original point of being told my dog was outgoing got lost somewhere in the subjectiveness of the word. The word outgoing is defined according to dictionary.com is:
> 
> interested in and responsive to others; friendly; sociable: _an outgoing personality_
> 
> _I am pretty sure that a dog who lunges, barks, growls and air snaps doesn't fit that definition. Correct me if I am wrong._
> 
> _You can spin the definition in anyway you want. However, IMHO, a dog WITH A GENETICALLY SOUND TEMPERAMENT DOES NOT go from once being described as "outgoing" to fearful when placed in a warm, loving environment while being showered with love, attention and affection._


I'm sorry you are going through all this with your dog, Lori. I've never met a Bonnie's dog that growls, snaps and lunges at people. All of the Angels I've met absolutely ADORE people. 

One thing I know about Bonnie is that she stands behind her dogs. I think you shouldn't assume the worst of her that she didn't email you back when you asked her if she wanted updates on your training. She gets tons of emails and calls a day, and lots of times I have to call her 3 or 4 times to get in touch with her. But she does want her buyers to be happy, and she definitely wants her dogs to be happy. 

If I were you, I would reach out again and see what she recommends. Basically you think that she misled you into falling in love with a dog --because now you want to keep him, but he is not the dog you wanted. But he did not come out of the crate growling and snapping. He did not do that until sometime down the line. Maybe something happened en route to you to traumatize the dog, or maybe something happened with your kids. Or maybe your dog naturally doesn't do well with kids (alot of Maltese are not), let alone four kids. That doesn't mean that you didn't shower him with love and affection. I imagine that four kids would naturally mean lots of chaos. Or maybe you're totally right, and somehow he did not end up with a genetically sound temperament. Anything is possible. 

I can't speak for Bonnie, but I would not be surprised if she were willing to take the dog back because that is the kind of lady she is. That is really all that a breeder can offer at the end of the day...


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## Cosy

princessre said:


> I'm sorry you are going through all this with your dog, Lori. I've never met a Bonnie's dog that growls, snaps and lunges at people. All of the Angels I've met absolutely ADORE people.
> 
> One thing I know about Bonnie is that she stands behind her dogs. I think you shouldn't assume the worst of her that she didn't email you back when you asked her if she wanted updates on your training. She gets tons of emails and calls a day, and lots of times I have to call her 3 or 4 times to get in touch with her. But she does want her buyers to be happy, and she definitely wants her dogs to be happy.
> 
> If I were you, I would reach out again and see what she recommends. Basically you think that she misled you into falling in love with a dog --because now you want to keep him, but he is not the dog you wanted. But he did not come out of the crate growling and snapping. He did not do that until sometime down the line. Maybe something happened en route to you to traumatize the dog, or maybe something happened with your kids. Or maybe your dog naturally doesn't do well with kids (alot of Maltese are not), let alone four kids. That doesn't mean that you didn't shower him with love and affection. I imagine that four kids would naturally mean lots of chaos. Or maybe you're totally right, and somehow he did not end up with a genetically sound temperament. Anything is possible.
> 
> I can't speak for Bonnie, but I would not be surprised if she were willing to take the dog back because that is the kind of lady she is. That is really all that a breeder can offer at the end of the day...


I agree with you, Sophia. It's all one can do. I don't think Bonnie would purposely ignore Lori or anyone. 
Lori, I tried to tell you just what Sophia said here in a PM. I wish you would call Bonnie and explain to her how you feel and discuss the problems.


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## k/c mom

Bonnie is certainly fortunate to have such devoted supporters. Really.

I think the perception here has been that this is a perfect breeder with perfect puppies/retirees, but obviously that isn't the case. Maybe the expectations were just too high to be met, based on the almost cult following that we've had here for this one breeder.

Members have posted little snippets here and there ... some posts were removed ... but it seems like anyone who read those posts would certainly see that dealing with her may not end up to be the perfect and pleasant experience one expected.

Now that some of this is out in the open, I hope that people will just take the time to do due diligence before purchasing from her ... or from any other breeder.

_Please note that I don't know this breeder, have never spoken with her, have never had an interest in her Malts so I have rarely even been to her site .. I just am responding to first-hand accounts posted here._


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## Cosy

Sher, I don't think it's cult like at all. I think it's a matter of practicality. It seems obvious Lori is not happy with her dog, so she should talk to Bonnie. I would suggest that to anyone buying a dog from her or any other breeder. It's too bad some think Bonnie has been put high upon a pedestal. I don't feel I've ever done that. I've simply told my experience with her. I'm sorry Bonnie doesn't churn out exact replicas of Ava, Cosy, Cas , etc. No breeder can do that. Those of us who love our malts from her say so, just as you speak of Claire and others speak of their breeders. It's no different.


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## lori

My children are not babies. They are not toddlers. They range in age from 11 to 20. From a "tween" to a man. They are not wild, hyperactive, ill-behaved children. They were already used to having a dog when I brought home Kodie. They would never, ever, hurt, tease or abuse an animal. Kodie has been shown NOTHING short of love from EVERY member of our home.

When I first spoke to Bonnie she was WELL AWARE that I had 4 children. Didn't seem to phase her in the least. 

Well, at the risk of airing even MORE of my dirty laundry, I will tell you that I ONCE AGAIN tried to reach out to Bonnie about my Kodie's issues. I sent her an email dated November 1. 10 days ago. I have not heard one single thing from her. Not a phone call, not an email. Now, when I first emailed Bonnie when I was looking for a dog, she CALLED me within a few days. When I originally emailed Bonnie and told her how he was behaving, I heard back from her within a day. Certainly I can understand she has many emails and phone calls. However, if I was a breeder and somebody emailed me expressing their unhappiness with one of my dogs, you better believe I would MAKE time to contact them. So, ladies, there you have it.


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## Cosy

I think I would call. Call and email until she responds. She doesn't check her email everyday. Leave a message on her voice mail. That's what I do and others do.


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## MaryH

princessre said:


> or maybe something happened with your kids. Or maybe your dog naturally doesn't do well with kids (alot of Maltese are not), let alone four kids.


I strongly disagree with this sentiment and feel that it does a disservice to our lovely and loving little ones. And because I'm certain that no one is questioning Lori's home environment or her children, I'm not even going to touch on that. The Maltese Standard says the following about temperament:

*Temperament -* For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear. His trust and affectionate responsiveness are very appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous.​ 
Nowhere does it say that Maltese are not good with children. The concern in placing a Maltese in a home with small children is for its physical safety. These dogs are small. Infants wobble and fall. Young children have no concept of wiggleworm ... the dog looks like the stuffed animal and can be picked up, tugged at and dropped. The popular sentiment is a "10-year rule." That is not cast in stone. If you've got 4 kids, some under the age of 10, you're going to have to prove to me that the children are well-behaved, respectful, intelligent. When I invite you to visit I want to meet the ENTIRE family. Rescues are a different story. I won't place a rescue in a home with children under the age of 10 because I may not know the whole truth about past history. A 6 yr. old dog may well be afraid of kids because it's been jumped on, kicked, tugged at, etc. But there is no 16-wk. old Maltese on earth who is naturally afraid of kids and to imply that is very unfair to our breed.


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## k/c mom

Cosy said:


> Sher, I don't think it's cult like at all. I think it's a matter of practicality. It seems obvious Lori is not happy with her dog, so she should talk to Bonnie. I would suggest that to anyone buying a dog from her or any other breeder. It's too bad some think Bonnie has been put high upon a pedestal. I don't feel I've ever done that. I've simply told my experience with her. I'm sorry Bonnie doesn't churn out exact replicas of Ava, Cosy, Cas , etc. No breeder can do that. Those of us who love our malts from her say so, just as you speak of Claire and others speak of their breeders. It's no different.


Brit, I agree totally that you have not done anything to perpetuate this but it's happened nonetheless!


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## princessre

Sorry, I didn't mean that Malts are not good TO the children. I meant that Malts and young children were considered not the best combination.



MaryH said:


> I strongly disagree with this sentiment and feel that it does a disservice to our lovely and loving little ones. And because I'm certain that no one is questioning Lori's home environment or her children, I'm not even going to touch on that. The Maltese Standard says the following about temperament:
> 
> *Temperament -* For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear. His trust and affectionate responsiveness are very appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous.​
> Nowhere does it say that Maltese are not good with children. The concern in placing a Maltese in a home with small children is for its physical safety. These dogs are small. Infants wobble and fall. Young children have no concept of wiggleworm ... the dog looks like the stuffed animal and can be picked up, tugged at and dropped. The popular sentiment is a "10-year rule." That is not cast in stone. If you've got 4 kids, some under the age of 10, you're going to have to prove to me that the children are well-behaved, respectful, intelligent. When I invite you to visit I want to meet the ENTIRE family. Rescues are a different story. I won't place a rescue in a home with children under the age of 10 because I may not know the whole truth about past history. A 6 yr. old dog may well be afraid of kids because it's been jumped on, kicked, tugged at, etc. But there is no 16-wk. old Maltese on earth who is naturally afraid of kids and to imply that is very unfair to our breed.


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## bellaratamaltese

princessre said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean that Malts are not good TO the children. I meant that Malts and young children were considered not the best combination.


An 11 year old is 'not' a small child, IMO. My 11 year old is showing at Eukanuba and Westminster this year. I don't think the 'small child with maltese' unwritten rule is an issue here.


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## princessre

bellaratamaltese said:


> An 11 year old is 'not' a small child, IMO. My 11 year old is showing at Eukanuba and Westminster this year. I don't think the 'small child with maltese' unwritten rule is an issue here.


I guess Marina is way more mature than my niece. She is 11 also, and she does find it funny to pull on Casanova's tail.


----------



## Ladysmom

princessre said:


> Maybe something happened en route to you to traumatize the dog, or maybe something happened with your kids. Or maybe your dog naturally doesn't do well with kids (alot of Maltese are not), let alone four kids. That doesn't mean that you didn't shower him with love and affection. I imagine that four kids would naturally mean lots of chaos.


Sophia, since you have been a business agent for Bonnie, I'm sure it is hard to be objective in this situation. Publicly speculating on Lori's personal situation with no firsthand knowledge is not appropriate and only clouds the issue, though.

I think the rules for commenting on breeders should apply to those who defend the breeder in question also.


1. Please only reply if you have *first-hand* experience with the breeder. 

2. Do not make speculative posts of what you "think" the situation "might" be.

 3. Do not post anything based on what you have heard.

4. Out of courtesy to the original poster, please stay on topic.


----------



## fleurdelys

MaryH said:


> Good point, Sophia. There will always be an element of subjectiveness ... "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." But there's a black and white aspect, too. Complete pigment? Coat color? Age? Parentage? Fontanel? Tearstaining? Debarking? Those are definites, no two ways about it. Buying a puppy is not one size fits all. Selling a puppy is no day at the beach either. My personal choice is not to sell a puppy sight unseen; I'm a "whatcha see is whatcha get" kind of person. Most importantly, I want the dogs to be happy and I want the humans to be happy and when one is happy generally the other is, too. :smootch:


I agree with Mary. From my own experience, I would say it is important to meet the breeder and the dog.


----------



## CloudClan

princessre said:


> I guess Marina is way more mature than my niece. She is 11 also, and she does find it funny to pull on Casanova's tail.


That is horrific. But it may not be reflective of her age, rather her own temperament. By age 11 she should KNOW that is not funny. But some people never do attain a appropriate level of respect for animals or humans. Marina is a very mature and intelligent young girl. However, I can not imagine any 11 year old I know behaving in such a way toward one of my dogs. 

I do think SM has become a forum where certain breeders are put on a very high pedestal. I don't think we should continue to argue over Lori's experience with her dog and suggesting that Lori's home caused her problem is clearly trying to argue with her personal experience. What she has said, and what the lesson should be for everyone here, is that it is important to do more than trust a forum to pick your dog for you. She has said very articulately the lesson she learned and I hope we can focus on that instead of going around and around about the rest of this. You have to do your own research and be very pro-active in establishing your own expectations.


----------



## edelweiss

:goodpost:


CloudClan said:


> That is horrific. But it may not be reflective of her age, rather her own temperament. By age 11 she should KNOW that is not funny. But some people never do attain a appropriate level of respect for animals or humans. Marina is a very mature and intelligent young girl. However, I can not imagine any 11 year old I know behaving in such a way toward one of my dogs.
> 
> I do think SM has become a forum where certain breeders are put on a very high pedestal. I don't think we should continue to argue over Lori's experience with her dog and suggesting that Lori's home caused her problem is clearly trying to argue with her personal experience. What she has said, and what the lesson should be for everyone here, is that it is important to do more than trust a forum to pick your dog for you. She has said very articulately the lesson she learned and I hope we can focus on that instead of going around and around about the rest of this. You have to do your own research and be very pro-active in establishing your own expectations.


:goodpost:


----------



## bellaratamaltese

CloudClan said:


> That is horrific. But it may not be reflective of her age, rather her own temperament. By age 11 she should KNOW that is not funny. But some people never do attain a appropriate level of respect for animals or humans. Marina is a very mature and intelligent young girl. However, I can not imagine any 11 year old I know behaving in such a way toward one of my dogs.
> 
> I do think SM has become a forum where certain breeders are put on a very high pedestal. I don't think we should continue to argue over Lori's experience with her dog and suggesting that Lori's home caused her problem is clearly trying to argue with her personal experience. What she has said, and what the lesson should be for everyone here, is that it is important to do more than trust a forum to pick your dog for you. She has said very articulately the lesson she learned and I hope we can focus on that instead of going around and around about the rest of this. You have to do your own research and be very pro-active in establishing your own expectations.


Agreed. Pulling a dogs tail at age 11 seems highly inappropriate, and not really an 'age' related event. A six year old? I can see that and hope the parents are right there to correct that behavior, but 11??? I find that very sad. And how frustrating for you to deal with, Sophia. 

The lesson that should be learned here is that Lori purchased a dog sight unseen because of the many glowing reports on SM, she thought 'how can I go wrong?" She learned a valuable lesson that she is trying to pass on - that no breeder is perfect and to do your homework.


----------



## k/c mom

bellaratamaltese said:


> Agreed. Pulling a dogs tail at age 11 seems highly inappropriate, and not really an 'age' related event. A six year old? I can see that and hope the parents are right there to correct that behavior, but 11??? I find that very sad. And how frustrating for you to deal with, Sophia.
> 
> The lesson that should be learned here is that Lori purchased a dog sight unseen because of the many glowing reports on SM, she thought 'how can I go wrong?" She learned a valuable lesson that she is trying to pass on - that no breeder is perfect and to do your homework.


:goodpost: Great points in both paragraphs.


----------



## silverhaven

Ok, I will chime in here,

I have posted before that Lola is nothing like the size she was supposed to be. Double the weight isn't subjective either. She didn't fit the description on arrival at all. There were many inconsistencies. But having lost my Bichon just 2 months earlier and having had her hand delivered to my daughter then driven 4 hrs by her while pregnant to bring her to me, and Lola arriving with her little arms outstretched to me and air licking trying to get to my face, I knew she was with us for good, no matter what. So, although I know Bonnie would have taken her back, there was no way I could do that. Both myself my husband and daughter fell in love with her straight away. So when I decided to keep her I was going to look to all the positives and just enjoy my little one, and take responsibility for her well being from then on.

Character wise, she isn't the laid back friendly dog that my Bichon was. She is fine with people coming in our house but especially if there are other dogs around she will snap occasionally at anyone trying to touch her. Being out seems to make her more anxious and excited. From arrival she was very afraid of shadows, reflections and objects in other places, but she is a lot better about that now. She has only seen a trainer once and he didn't know whether she was afraid or aggressive. I haven't seen him again. I may see another trainer who sounds better to me to help with the snapping (she has never bitten anyone but air snaps and makes them jump back.) She tries in on a bit with us too, if I tell her she can't do something like steal stuff of my side table she will sometimes, not often, turn and air snap at me too, and she growls and groans when we move her off our laps. I think NILIF is maybe in order.

That being said she is a total delight to us, she is full of mischief and kissy huggy and smart, and I feel blessed to have her in my life.

Just wish to add to you Lori, that I am sorry your little one has such issues  I do not believe that is is environment that has caused these issues. I hope your trainer can help. I am just not sure what you want Bonnie to do though at this point? 

To the OP. I am so sorry to hear all you have gone through. I really hope you find a sweet healthy baby to spend many years with. :grouphug:


----------



## princessre

So now this is getting ugly. Marj, please do NOT spread false information about my and Bonnie's association. Bonnie and I have NEVER been business partners. I thought about helping her launch her shampoo, and realized I was too busy. Not one dollar has passed between me and Bonnie aside from money to pay for Casanova. So I do have FIRST HAND experience with Bonnie's dogs, which is why I am commenting and trying to help Lori resolve her situation.



Ladysmom said:


> Sophia, since you and Bonnie have also been business partners, I'm sure it is hard to be objective in this situation. Publicly speculating on Lori's personal situation with no firsthand knowledge is not appropriate and only clouds the issue, though.
> 
> I think the rules for commenting on breeders should apply to those who defend the breeder in question also.
> 
> 
> 1. Please only reply if you have *first-hand* experience with the breeder.
> 
> 2. Do not make speculative posts of what you "think" the situation "might" be.
> 
> 3. Do not post anything based on what you have heard.
> 
> 4. Out of courtesy to the original poster, please stay on topic.


----------



## Starsmom

princessre said:


> I guess Marina is way more mature than my niece. She is 11 also, and she does find it funny to pull on Casanova's tail.


This is so disturbing to me. Funny? I think not. It is a form of abuse - plain and simple. You are her parent. It's time to step up and do some parenting. Let her know that behavior is not acceptable. How does Casanova react to this treatment? If Casanova were a large breed she might get bit. Would the dog then be at fault for defending himself?


----------



## bellaratamaltese

Starsmom said:


> This is so disturbing to me. Funny? I think not. It is a form of abuse - plain and simple. You are her parent. It's time to step up and do some parenting. Let her know that behavior is not acceptable. How does Casanova react to this treatment? If Casanova were a large breed she might get bit. Would the dog then be at fault for defending himself?


I think Sophia is talking about her niece, trying to make a point that 11 year olds aren't to be trusted with animals. She is not the parent but hopefully she is helping her niece see that this is not appropriate behavior!


----------



## Rocky's Mom

CloudClan said:


> That is horrific. But it may not be reflective of her age, rather her own temperament. By age 11 she should KNOW that is not funny. But some people never do attain a appropriate level of respect for animals or humans. Marina is a very mature and intelligent young girl. However, I can not imagine any 11 year old I know behaving in such a way toward one of my dogs.
> 
> I do think SM has become a forum where certain breeders are put on a very high pedestal. I don't think we should continue to argue over Lori's experience with her dog and suggesting that Lori's home caused her problem is clearly trying to argue with her personal experience. What she has said, and what the lesson should be for everyone here, is that it is important to do more than trust a forum to pick your dog for you. She has said very articulately the lesson she learned and I hope we can focus on that instead of going around and around about the rest of this. You have to do your own research and be very pro-active in establishing your own expectations.
> :goodpost:


----------



## Starsmom

bellaratamaltese said:


> I think Sophia is talking about her niece, trying to make a point that 11 year olds aren't to be trusted with animals. She is not the parent but hopefully she is helping her niece see that this is not appropriate behavior!


Sorry missed the niece part - whoever is this child's parent needs to parent and STOP this behavior.


----------



## allheart

MaryH said:


> I strongly disagree with this sentiment and feel that it does a disservice to our lovely and loving little ones. And because I'm certain that no one is questioning Lori's home environment or her children, I'm not even going to touch on that. The Maltese Standard says the following about temperament:
> 
> *Temperament -* For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear. His trust and affectionate responsiveness are very appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous.​
> Nowhere does it say that Maltese are not good with children. The concern in placing a Maltese in a home with small children is for its physical safety. These dogs are small. Infants wobble and fall. Young children have no concept of wiggleworm ... the dog looks like the stuffed animal and can be picked up, tugged at and dropped. The popular sentiment is a "10-year rule." That is not cast in stone. If you've got 4 kids, some under the age of 10, you're going to have to prove to me that the children are well-behaved, respectful, intelligent. When I invite you to visit I want to meet the ENTIRE family. Rescues are a different story. I won't place a rescue in a home with children under the age of 10 because I may not know the whole truth about past history. A 6 yr. old dog may well be afraid of kids because it's been jumped on, kicked, tugged at, etc. But there is no 16-wk. old Maltese on earth who is naturally afraid of kids and to imply that is very unfair to our breed.


Absolutely agree!!!! Great post!!!


----------



## allheart

bellaratamaltese said:


> Agreed. Pulling a dogs tail at age 11 seems highly inappropriate, and not really an 'age' related event. A six year old? I can see that and hope the parents are right there to correct that behavior, but 11??? I find that very sad. And how frustrating for you to deal with, Sophia.
> 
> The lesson that should be learned here is that Lori purchased a dog sight unseen because of the many glowing reports on SM, she thought 'how can I go wrong?" She learned a valuable lesson that she is trying to pass on - that no breeder is perfect and to do your homework.


Stacy completely agree, GREAT POST!


----------



## princessre

silverhaven said:


> Ok, I will chime in here,
> 
> I have posted before that Lola is nothing like the size she was supposed to be. Double the weight isn't subjective either. She didn't fit the description on arrival at all. There were many inconsistencies. But having lost my Bichon just 2 months earlier and having had her hand delivered to my daughter then driven 4 hrs by her while pregnant to bring her to me, and Lola arriving with her little arms outstretched to me and air licking trying to get to my face, I knew she was with us for good, no matter what. So, although I know Bonnie would have taken her back, there was no way I could do that. Both myself my husband and daughter fell in love with her straight away. So when I decided to keep her I was going to look to all the positives and just enjoy my little one, and take responsibility for her well being from then on.
> 
> Character wise, she isn't the laid back friendly dog that my Bichon was. She is fine with people coming in our house but especially if there are other dogs around she will snap occasionally at anyone trying to touch her. Being out seems to make her more anxious and excited. From arrival she was very afraid of shadows, reflections and objects in other places, but she is a lot better about that now. She has only seen a trainer once and he didn't know whether she was afraid or aggressive. I haven't seen him again. I may see another trainer who sounds better to me to help with the snapping (she has never bitten anyone but air snaps and makes them jump back.) She tries in on a bit with us too, if I tell her she can't do something like steal stuff of my side table she will sometimes, not often, turn and air snap at me too, and she growls and groans when we move her off our laps. I think NILIF is maybe in order.
> 
> That being said she is a total delight to us, she is full of mischief and kissy huggy and smart, and I feel blessed to have her in my life.
> 
> Just wish to add to you Lori, that I am sorry your little one has such issues  I do not believe that is is environment that has caused these issues. I hope your trainer can help. I am just not sure what you want Bonnie to do though at this point?
> 
> To the OP. I am so sorry to hear all you have gone through. I really hope you find a sweet healthy baby to spend many years with. :grouphug:


:grouphug: Sorry Maureen. I did not realize that Lola had fear and snapping issues also.


----------



## princessre

Starsmom said:


> This is so disturbing to me. Funny? I think not. It is a form of abuse - plain and simple. You are her parent. It's time to step up and do some parenting. Let her know that behavior is not acceptable. How does Casanova react to this treatment? If Casanova were a large breed she might get bit. Would the dog then be at fault for defending himself?


Thankfully I don't have any children...that I know of. I thought it was a mean tween phase. But yes, not to worry, I always separate my niece and Casanova.


----------



## MaryH

silverhaven said:


> Just wish to add to you Lori, that I am sorry your little one has such issues  I do not believe that is is environment that has caused these issues. I hope your trainer can help. I am just not sure what you want Bonnie to do though at this point?


I'm not sure a breeder could salvage a buyer's trust at this point, but an acknowledgement that the temperament issues have deeper roots than "the dog's head got screwed up during or after the transition" might at least be a good start. But it can't end there. Now the breeder needs to fix the problem going forward, whether it's genetic, environmental, or a combination of both. And the breeder needs to have better buyer/seller discussions, at least about temperament and better guestimates about size.


----------



## Snowbody

bellaratamaltese said:


> An 11 year old is 'not' a small child, IMO. My 11 year old is showing at Eukanuba and Westminster this year. I don't think the 'small child with maltese' unwritten rule is an issue here.


A couple of quick things. Stacy - didn't you post just in the last week or two about picking up Marina from school and about the lost Yorkie that middle school age kids were KICKING!! :w00t: I wish all kids were like your Marina, whom I adore but age doesn't have that much to do with right and wrong. So I wouldn't generalize about 11-year-olds knowing right from wrong. Again tho not at all reflecting on Lori's kids. I'm sure they are great but 'tweens and teens can be very mean and bully other kids so not that much of a stretch to think some could be that inhumane to pets too. 

The other thing I keep thinking with dogs and temperament is just look at human brothers and sisters. I would see my friends giving birth to the dream baby, the kid from ****, the quiet little doll only to see their next child as the complete opposite. Same parents, same home, same environment but we all have characteristics that are assigned to each of us through heredity, God's choice, whatever we believe. So while one person may have an angel of a dog from a breeder, it doesn't necessarily mean that the litter mate or other dogs born of certain couplings will be carbon copies. There are no guarantees in the health of human babies either. We hope for the best and when we have a child with an ailment or disability we learn to cope. I guess with pups you can return them for another since you bought them but I also know that once I would feel a puppy in my arms that I thought was mine, I wouldn't be able to give it up.

I did visit my breeder first-- that was my hard, fast rule. I wouldn't buy or adopt a Maltese without laying my eyes on it, holding it in my arms, playing with it and checking out where my little one lived. It was a non-negotiable, and I was hoping it would be in my area but if not I was prepared to fly out by plane.

The bottom line is lots of homework, lots of checking, what's right for one person or the perfect breeder isn't right for everyone and go with your gut feeling on your own. I don't buy trendy clothes and accessories. I don't have to run with the crowd. I gathered up lots of info and then checked it all out myself. Buyer beware.


----------



## silverhaven

princessre said:


> :grouphug: Sorry Maureen. I did not realize that Lola had fear and snapping issues also.


Thanks Sophia, I have found that the snapping is escalating right now, I think the people jumping back is rewarding to her so I need to see a trainer. Her fear comes out as reactive barking.


----------



## silverhaven

MaryH said:


> I'm not sure a breeder could salvage a buyer's trust at this point, but an acknowledgement that the temperament issues have deeper roots than "the dog's head got screwed up during or after the transition" might at least be a good start. But it can't end there. Now the breeder needs to fix the problem going forward, whether it's genetic, environmental, or a combination of both. And the breeder needs to have better buyer/seller discussions, at least about temperament and better guestimates about size.


I agree that acknowledging the issue and being sympathetic and helpful would be a good start indeed.

Editing to include that I think more accuracy rather than size guestimation is needed. When a dog arrives at only 13 weeks more than a full lb heavier than being told and paperwork. This is an issue.


----------



## MaryH

Snowbody said:


> A couple of quick things. Stacy - didn't you post just in the last week or two about picking up Marina from school and about the lost Yorkie that middle school age kids were KICKING!! :w00t: I wish all kids were like your Marina, whom I adore but age doesn't have that much to do with right and wrong. So I wouldn't generalize about 11-year-olds knowing right from wrong. Again tho not at all reflecting on Lori's kids. I'm sure they are great but 'tweens and teens can be very mean and bully other kids so not that much of a stretch to think some could be that inhumane to pets too.
> 
> The other thing I keep thinking with dogs and temperament is just look at human brothers and sisters. I would see my friends giving birth to the dream baby, the kid from ****, the quiet little doll only to see their next child as the complete opposite. Same parents, same home, same environment but we all have characteristics that are assigned to each of us through heredity, God's choice, whatever we believe. So while one person may have an angel of a dog from a breeder, it doesn't necessarily mean that the litter mate or other dogs born of certain couplings will be carbon copies. There are no guarantees in the health of human babies either. We hope for the best and when we have a child with an ailment or disability we learn to cope. I guess with pups you can return them for another since you bought them but I also know that once I would feel a puppy in my arms that I thought was mine, I wouldn't be able to give it up.
> 
> I did visit my breeder first-- that was my hard, fast rule. I wouldn't buy or adopt a Maltese without laying my eyes on it, holding it in my arms, playing with it and checking out where my little one lived. It was a non-negotiable, and I was hoping it would be in my area but if not I was prepared to fly out by plane.
> 
> The bottom line is lots of homework, lots of checking, what's right for one person or the perfect breeder isn't right for everyone and go with your gut feeling on your own. I don't buy trendy clothes and accessories. I don't have to run with the crowd. I gathered up lots of info and then checked it all out myself. Buyer beware.


Sue, you raise some great points. I think the consistent message throughout this thread is that people need to do their homework. I'm with you and with so many others here. Once a dog crosses my threshhold it's with me for better or worse, richer or poorer, etc. And I agree with you about the fact that not every offspring, human or canine, is a cookie cutter image of it siblings or littermates. The difference however is that in the human world generally we don't change partners for the sole purpose of producing something different in our offspring. But in the canine world we do ... and we should. Temperament issues are known issues in some breeds and in some lines within breeds. Can we blame it all on genetics? No. Nor can we blame it all on environment. But once the issue is identified we need to keep our eyes open to figure out what we can and should do differently next time. Like we'd take a long hard look at a livers, hearts, patellas, etc. we need to take the same long hard look at temperament.


----------



## edelweiss

Snowbody said:


> A couple of quick things. Stacy - didn't you post just in the last week or two about picking up Marina from school and about the lost Yorkie that middle school age kids were KICKING!! :w00t: I wish all kids were like your Marina, whom I adore but age doesn't have that much to do with right and wrong. So I wouldn't generalize about 11-year-olds knowing right from wrong. Again tho not at all reflecting on Lori's kids. I'm sure they are great but 'tweens and teens can be very mean and bully other kids so not that much of a stretch to think some could be that inhumane to pets too.
> 
> The other thing I keep thinking with dogs and temperament is just look at human brothers and sisters. I would see my friends giving birth to the dream baby, the kid from ****, the quiet little doll only to see their next child as the complete opposite. Same parents, same home, same environment but we all have characteristics that are assigned to each of us through heredity, God's choice, whatever we believe. So while one person may have an angel of a dog from a breeder, it doesn't necessarily mean that the litter mate or other dogs born of certain couplings will be carbon copies. There are no guarantees in the health of human babies either. We hope for the best and when we have a child with an ailment or disability we learn to cope. I guess with pups you can return them for another since you bought them but I also know that once I would feel a puppy in my arms that I thought was mine, I wouldn't be able to give it up.
> 
> I did visit my breeder first-- that was my hard, fast rule. I wouldn't buy or adopt a Maltese without laying my eyes on it, holding it in my arms, playing with it and checking out where my little one lived. It was a non-negotiable, and I was hoping it would be in my area but if not I was prepared to fly out by plane.
> 
> The bottom line is lots of homework, lots of checking, what's right for one person or the perfect breeder isn't right for everyone and go with your gut feeling on your own. I don't buy trendy clothes and accessories. I don't have to run with the crowd. I gathered up lots of info and then checked it all out myself. Buyer beware.


Susan, while I agree w/this last paragraph & would totally do it---there is, however, a wild card here. 
Genetics don't always show up the day or following week after a dog comes home w/us---not emotional issues or physical issues. The question is: what is the best way to pursue recourse once there is an issue? The breeder can say: "YOU must be at fault because others have a different experience or-- look at my reputation." What can the buyer do who has fallen in love & now is feeling sad about what has developed? What is the right/ethical thing to do? Does one expose the breeder so others are not misled? A fine line indeed.
Regardless of how busy/popular a breeder is I believe that there is NO excuse for not replying to an inquiry of someone who has purchased an animal----and I mean in a timely manner---not a week or 10 days later. If need be the breeder should have someone else taking care of calls/emails that would make that possible. A buyer should not have to chase the breeder!
One question I have learned to ask is: how many litters were produced from this particular pairing and what issues have arisen that I need to know about before I make a decision? It won't solve all the problems but it is a start.


----------



## Ladysmom

princessre said:


> So now this is getting ugly. Marj, please do NOT spread false information about my and Bonnie's association. Bonnie and I have NEVER been business partners. I thought about helping her launch her shampoo, and realized I was too busy. Not one dollar has passed between me and Bonnie aside from money to pay for Casanova. So I do have FIRST HAND experience with Bonnie's dogs, which is why I am commenting and trying to help Lori resolve her situation.


I am not spreading false information. When someone is authorized to speak and act as an agent on behalf of a company/product, a business association does exist whether or not there is a financial investment.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/51-...onnie-palmers-pet-products-2.html#post1727966


----------



## princessre

Ladysmom said:


> I am not spreading false information. When someone is authorized to speak and act as an agent on behalf of a company/product, a business association does exist whether or not there is a financial investment.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/51-...onnie-palmers-pet-products-2.html#post1727966


Oh LOL! I helped Bonnie for 5 minutes, and you are weaving this elaborate conspiracy theory on me? I am not Bonnie's business partner, and have NEVER been.

I do feel very badly for those who may have purchased from Bonnie who are not happy with their pups. I'm sure the same has happened with other breeders. That's why no breeder is perfect. Those who were not happy with Bonnie's pups sure have not spoken to me prior to this.

Let's not let this discussion about breeder/buyer expectations devolve into personal attacks about people's motivations. Thanks.


----------



## Cosy

I spoke of Bonnie's shampoo too since I was sampling it. Does that make me a business partner? I think not.
If so, then I would be Crystal's business partner too since I also tried Nootie for her. Let's not make something it isn't here.


----------



## lori

Ladysmom said:


> Sophia, since you and Bonnie have also been business partners, I'm sure it is hard to be objective in this situation. Publicly speculating on Lori's personal situation with no firsthand knowledge is not appropriate and only clouds the issue, though.
> 
> I think the rules for commenting on breeders should apply to those who defend the breeder in question also.
> 
> 
> 1. Please only reply if you have *first-hand* experience with the breeder.
> 
> 2. Do not make speculative posts of what you "think" the situation "might" be.
> 
> 3. Do not post anything based on what you have heard.
> 
> 4. Out of courtesy to the original poster, please stay on topic.


:aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::aktion033:


----------



## lori

CloudClan said:


> That is horrific. But it may not be reflective of her age, rather her own temperament. By age 11 she should KNOW that is not funny. But some people never do attain a appropriate level of respect for animals or humans. Marina is a very mature and intelligent young girl. However, I can not imagine any 11 year old I know behaving in such a way toward one of my dogs.
> 
> I do think SM has become a forum where certain breeders are put on a very high pedestal. I don't think we should continue to argue over Lori's experience with her dog and suggesting that Lori's home caused her problem is clearly trying to argue with her personal experience. What she has said, and what the lesson should be for everyone here, is that it is important to do more than trust a forum to pick your dog for you. She has said very articulately the lesson she learned and I hope we can focus on that instead of going around and around about the rest of this. You have to do your own research and be very pro-active in establishing your own expectations.


Carina,
I couldn't agree with you more. My 11 year old son WOULD NEVER even think about pulling a dog's tail. He is gentle and loving towards our 2 dogs. I would NEVER tolerate such behavior from him or from any other child who came into contact with my dogs. To even SUGGEST that one of my children has caused Kodie's issues is insulting, to say the least.


----------



## lori

silverhaven said:


> Ok, I will chime in here,
> 
> I have posted before that Lola is nothing like the size she was supposed to be. Double the weight isn't subjective either. She didn't fit the description on arrival at all. There were many inconsistencies. But having lost my Bichon just 2 months earlier and having had her hand delivered to my daughter then driven 4 hrs by her while pregnant to bring her to me, and Lola arriving with her little arms outstretched to me and air licking trying to get to my face, I knew she was with us for good, no matter what. So, although I know Bonnie would have taken her back, there was no way I could do that. Both myself my husband and daughter fell in love with her straight away. So when I decided to keep her I was going to look to all the positives and just enjoy my little one, and take responsibility for her well being from then on.
> 
> Character wise, she isn't the laid back friendly dog that my Bichon was. She is fine with people coming in our house but especially if there are other dogs around she will snap occasionally at anyone trying to touch her. Being out seems to make her more anxious and excited. From arrival she was very afraid of shadows, reflections and objects in other places, but she is a lot better about that now. She has only seen a trainer once and he didn't know whether she was afraid or aggressive. I haven't seen him again. I may see another trainer who sounds better to me to help with the snapping (she has never bitten anyone but air snaps and makes them jump back.) She tries in on a bit with us too, if I tell her she can't do something like steal stuff of my side table she will sometimes, not often, turn and air snap at me too, and she growls and groans when we move her off our laps. I think NILIF is maybe in order.
> 
> That being said she is a total delight to us, she is full of mischief and kissy huggy and smart, and I feel blessed to have her in my life.
> 
> Just wish to add to you Lori, that I am sorry your little one has such issues  I do not believe that is is environment that has caused these issues. I hope your trainer can help. I am just not sure what you want Bonnie to do though at this point?
> 
> To the OP. I am so sorry to hear all you have gone through. I really hope you find a sweet healthy baby to spend many years with. :grouphug:


Maureen,
Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience. I know exactly where you are coming from and I know that there are many other stories that are similar. Kudos to you for speaking up. :thumbsup:


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## lori

bellaratamaltese said:


> Agreed. Pulling a dogs tail at age 11 seems highly inappropriate, and not really an 'age' related event. A six year old? I can see that and hope the parents are right there to correct that behavior, but 11??? I find that very sad. And how frustrating for you to deal with, Sophia.
> 
> The lesson that should be learned here is that Lori purchased a dog sight unseen because of the many glowing reports on SM, she thought 'how can I go wrong?" She learned a valuable lesson that she is trying to pass on - that no breeder is perfect and to do your homework.


Well said!!!:aktion033: 



silverhaven said:


> Thanks Sophia, I have found that the snapping is escalating right now, I think the people jumping back is rewarding to her so I need to see a trainer. Her fear comes out as reactive barking.


Maureen, this is EXACTLY what happened with Kodie. Once it began to escalate, I knew it was time to seek a professional's help.


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## Ladysmom

I went back and corrected my post to say "business agent" as opposed to "business partner". It is a more accurate description of the business relationship evidenced by Sophia's post from 2009.

Business Agent: an _agent_ who handles _business_ affairs for another.

Sorry for the misuse of terms and the distraction it caused. I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. :back2topic:


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## lori

MaryH said:


> I'm not sure a breeder could salvage a buyer's trust at this point, but an acknowledgement that the temperament issues have deeper roots than "the dog's head got screwed up during or after the transition" might at least be a good start. But it can't end there. Now the breeder needs to fix the problem going forward, whether it's genetic, environmental, or a combination of both. And the breeder needs to have better buyer/seller discussions, at least about temperament and better guestimates about size.


Mary, I agree completely. It cant and shouldn't end there. This is one of the reasons I decided to email Bonnie again. I wanted her to be aware of this. To say that I am completely disappointed in Bonnie's lack of response is an understatement. 



edelweiss said:


> Susan, while I agree w/this last paragraph & would totally do it---there is, however, a wild card here.
> Genetics don't always show up the day or following week after a dog comes home w/us---not emotional issues or physical issues. The question is: what is the best way to pursue recourse once there is an issue? The breeder can say: "YOU must be at fault because others have a different experience or-- look at my reputation." What can the buyer do who has fallen in love & now is feeling sad about what has developed? What is the right/ethical thing to do? Does one expose the breeder so others are not misled? A fine line indeed.
> Regardless of how busy/popular a breeder is I believe that there is NO excuse for not replying to an inquiry of someone who has purchased an animal----and I mean in a timely manner---not a week or 10 days later. If need be the breeder should have someone else taking care of calls/emails that would make that possible. A buyer should not have to chase the breeder!
> One question I have learned to ask is: how many litters were produced from this particular pairing and what issues have arisen that I need to know about before I make a decision? It won't solve all the problems but it is a start.


Amen!!!! I should NOT have to hound Bonnie day in and day out in order for her to speak with me. Maybe I should send out an All Point's Bulletin or contact the FBI to track her down. Seriously!! This isn't the way it should have to be.


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## coco

princessre said:


> I'm sorry you are going through all this with your dog, Lori. I've never met a Bonnie's dog that growls, snaps and lunges at people. All of the Angels I've met absolutely ADORE people.
> 
> One thing I know about Bonnie is that she stands behind her dogs. I think you shouldn't assume the worst of her that she didn't email you back when you asked her if she wanted updates on your training. She gets tons of emails and calls a day, and lots of times I have to call her 3 or 4 times to get in touch with her. But she does want her buyers to be happy, and she definitely wants her dogs to be happy.
> 
> If I were you, I would reach out again and see what she recommends. Basically you think that she misled you into falling in love with a dog --because now you want to keep him, but he is not the dog you wanted. But he did not come out of the crate growling and snapping. He did not do that until sometime down the line. Maybe something happened en route to you to traumatize the dog, or maybe something happened with your kids. Or maybe your dog naturally doesn't do well with kids (alot of Maltese are not), let alone four kids. That doesn't mean that you didn't shower him with love and affection. I imagine that four kids would naturally mean lots of chaos. Or maybe you're totally right, and somehow he did not end up with a genetically sound temperament. Anything is possible.
> 
> I can't speak for Bonnie, but I would not be surprised if she were willing to take the dog back because that is the kind of lady she is. That is really all that a breeder can offer at the end of the day...


I totally agree. Thank you Sophia for saying this. Knowing Bonnie as well as I do, I could not agree more. FYI, I've called and e-mailed Bonnie in the past, and she isn't sitting on her computer or attached to her phone as many of us are. Anyway, what Sophia said!!


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## coco

k/c mom said:


> Bonnie is certainly fortunate to have such devoted supporters. Really.
> 
> I think the perception here has been that this is a perfect breeder with perfect puppies/retirees, but obviously that isn't the case. Maybe the expectations were just too high to be met, based on the almost cult following that we've had here for this one breeder.
> 
> Members have posted little snippets here and there ... some posts were removed ... but it seems like anyone who read those posts would certainly see that dealing with her may not end up to be the perfect and pleasant experience one expected.
> 
> Now that some of this is out in the open, I hope that people will just take the time to do due diligence before purchasing from her ... or from any other breeder.
> 
> _Please note that I don't know this breeder, have never spoken with her, have never had an interest in her Malts so I have rarely even been to her site .. I just am responding to first-hand accounts posted here._


Excuse me, but you've been the first one to stop negative talk about other breeders, but now you're trying to get it out there. Personally, I resent this post. You were the first one to block or stop talk about certain breeders, but it's okay for this to go on?


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## Cosy

Lori said:


> Mary, I agree completely. It cant and shouldn't end there. This is one of the reasons I decided to email Bonnie again. I wanted her to be aware of this. To say that I am completely disappointed in Bonnie's lack of response is an understatement.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen!!!! I should NOT have to hound Bonnie day in and day out in order for her to speak with me. Maybe I should send out an All Point's Bulletin or contact the FBI to track her down. Seriously!! This isn't the way it should have to be.


I think if I had a dog with a genetic disposition problem I'd be hounding the breeder until I got some answers. Call me crazy but I sure wouldn't stop at an email and then suggest because she didn't respond she isn't interested. I doubt she's even read it yet. CALL HER.


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## coco

Cosy said:


> I think if I had a dog with a genetic disposition problem I'd be hounding the breeder until I got some answers. Call me crazy but I sure wouldn't stop at an email and then suggest because she didn't respond she isn't interested. I doubt she's even read it yet. CALL HER.


Geeze, I've written Bonnie e-mails and not heard from her. She isn't great with a computer. Anyone who knows her very well will tell you this. LOL! She's always having computer problems. Maybe Bonnie is out of town. Who knows? I honestly don't believe Bonnie is deliberately ignoring you.


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## allheart

Lori said:


> I am glad to hear that you are happy with your dog from Bonnie. Sadly, my pup from her is terribly fearful. His trainer, who has been training dogs for over 25 years, feels that he was under socialized when he came to me. He has been working with her for over 6 months now and he is still not done. I love him with all of my heart and I have dedicated myself to helping him overcome his fear.


Aww, bless your little guy and you and I know you love him with all you heart. I pray he overcomes his fear and I pray that day comes. Mia came to us, happy but very shy (she was from a home breeder), we did work alot with her, and she is coming around and becoming more confident.

I wish you all the best.


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## princessre

Cosy said:


> I spoke of Bonnie's shampoo too since I was sampling it. Does that make me a business partner? I think not.
> If so, then I would be Crystal's business partner too since I also tried Nootie for her. Let's not make something it isn't here.


No, I don't think that makes you Crystal's business partner, but it might make you her business agent. :HistericalSmiley:


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## k/c mom

coco said:


> Excuse me, but you've been the first one to stop negative talk about other breeders, but now you're trying to get it out there. Personally, I resent this post. You were the first one to block or stop talk about certain breeders, but it's okay for this to go on?


Negative talk is one thing but reporting first-hand experience is another and regarding whether it is stopped or not was taken case by case months ago when I was admin.

If you have issues with this thread, then report it to those now in charge: Yung and Joe.


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