# lineage



## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

I have a question about lineage in my fluff. I am very concerned about the frequency lily's grandfather shows up in her pedigree.

Her dad is BENJI SCOTT 
his parents CASPERS MY MILLENNIUM MAN and PRICESSA LACE SIMS 
Caspers parent DDR RUFFLES WITHOUT RIDGES and DRR CRYSTAL CLEAR PERSUASION
Priscella's parents CASPERS MY MILLENNIUM MAN and MS MILLENNIUM CHANTILLY LACE

her mom is ANGEL LACE III
her parents CASPER'S MY MILLENNIUM MAN and MS MILLENNIUM CHANTILLY LACE
caspers parents (listed above)
ms millennium chantilly lace's parents BARBELLA'S PIN UP BOY AND BARBELLA'S HEAVENLY LOVE

So her grandfather is on both sides on the family as a grand father and on the fathers side of the family as a great grandfather. Soooo, it looks like the only "new" blood in her family is her grandmother's(who is also her great grandmother on the other side) parents. This is just way to close for my comfort. Should a father be breed with his daughter?
How will this effect the chances of Lily being a possible show dog?


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

wow that's pretty tight. It's a tight line breeding although I'm not familiar with these dogs. Is she akc?


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## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

yes, which is why I was so shocked. none of our other AKC (american kennel club) dogs have had such a frequent sire/dam pop up


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I've seen tighter. Having the same grandfather on both sides isn't all that unusual. What's important is are these dogs healthy and meet the standard. How old is Lily?


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I'll be honest and say this looks like a byb pedigree, which probably explains why the same dogs were used. It probably isn't for improving the breed, they are used because they are convenient.

It shouldn't affect too much for her being a show dog, since if you bred her after she is finished, you wouldn't be breeding into those same lines, hopefully. You'd be doing an out-cross, most likely.

i personally wouldn't ever feel comfortable breeding father to daughter but i know experienced show breeders know their lines well enough where they do. But they are working with top maltese in hopes of producing more top winning maltese.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

bellaratamaltese said:


> wow that's pretty tight. It's a tight line breeding although I'm not familiar with these dogs. Is she akc?





Cosy said:


> I've seen tighter. Having the same grandfather on both sides isn't all that unusual. What's important is are these dogs healthy and meet the standard. How old is Lily?



That's a very true.

I have a litter due next month that is tighter than I've bred before, but I hope to get some nice pups! The grandfathers are full brothers
WebGeneal 4.7.0 (2004.05.01)


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## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

Lily will be 10 wks on friday. The documentaion says he is a championship. But my understanding is he would have won just 1 event and it was able to be posted. I have had a hard time getting further info from the person we bought her from. The breeder was very ill when we purchased her and is now in the hospital. i dont want to be a pest so I am trying to find out on my own.:blush: I guess it is good to know that linebreeding is out there. I just dont really like it so frequently in my pup.


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## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

bellaratamaltese said:


> I'll be honest and say this looks like a byb pedigree, which probably explains why the same dogs were used. It probably isn't for improving the breed, they are used because they are convenient.
> 
> It shouldn't affect too much for her being a show dog, since if you bred her after she is finished, you wouldn't be breeding into those same lines, hopefully. You'd be doing an out-cross, most likely.
> 
> i personally wouldn't ever feel comfortable breeding father to daughter but i know experienced show breeders know their lines well enough where they do. But they are working with top maltese in hopes of producing more top winning maltese.


 We have no plans to breed her but if for some reason we did it would most deff be with new blood.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Who was supposed to be a champion?

In order for them to be a champion, they have to win more than just one event.

Do you have the AKC papers for her so you can register her? That's too bad that her breeder is so sick. Did you buy her for maybe show or did it jsut interest you after you bought her? (i know that one well!)

At 10 weeks, it's too early to really determine if she is show quality. Usually at 8 weeks you can get an idea but 6 mos is the minimum for truly evaluating them for show. 

I would see if you can find a show breeder that is close to you and maybe arrange to meet up with them. Lily is too young to be taken on any show grounds. your daughter would have to wait until Lily is 6 mos old to show her so both of them have a few months to wait and practice! 

At the 2011 Maltese Nationals in Texas this april, they are having another juniors seminar which would be very helpful for your daughter to go to. You should think about going! It's so much fun even if you aren't going to show your dog.


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## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Who was supposed to be a champion?
> 
> In order for them to be a champion, they have to win more than just one event.
> 
> ...


 Casper is a champion. The one who is in her line so much. We have sent in her papers already and recieved everything back. We actually bought her just for a pet. My children have wanted a maltese for a very long time. I made then save the money for her. NEVER figured they would get enough together to have a maltese. My oldest loves dog shows and since about day 2 is begging to show her. There is a canine education match happening in November in LA. She wants to go so bad. Lily will be 6 months then so maybe it will work out for her. Kyra works with her everyday. She responds to sit, stay, heel, trot (I thought this one was funny), and speak. She is working on roll over.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

bellaratamaltese said:


> I'll be honest and say this looks like a byb pedigree, which probably explains why the same dogs were used. It probably isn't for improving the breed, they are used because they are convenient.
> 
> It shouldn't affect too much for her being a show dog, since if you bred her after she is finished, you wouldn't be breeding into those same lines, hopefully. You'd be doing an out-cross, most likely.
> 
> i personally wouldn't ever feel comfortable breeding father to daughter but i know experienced show breeders know their lines well enough where they do. But they are working with top maltese in hopes of producing more top winning maltese.


 
Maybe I'm naieve here,since I don't know anything about breeding but father to daughter? That creeps me out. Is inbreeding standard practice?


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

CASPER'S MY MILLENNIUM MAN is not a conformation champion and according to akc, does not have any points towards his championship. He was born in 1999. 

I bet your oldest daughter and my daughter would get along well! She loooves watching dog shows on tv. Can you find out about conformation classes in your area? That is so great your daughters saved up enough!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

The names on this pedigree sound real familiar. Barbarella is Barbara Roark from Oklahoma. 
Lilly is 25% line bred. Yes, breeding father to daughter is done more frequent than you'd think. Alot of people do 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. Too close for me.


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## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

bellaratamaltese said:


> CASPER'S MY MILLENNIUM MAN is not a conformation champion and according to akc, does not have any points towards his championship. He was born in 1999.
> 
> I bet your oldest daughter and my daughter would get along well! She loooves watching dog shows on tv. Can you find out about conformation classes in your area? That is so great your daughters saved up enough!


I found the search at 2 this morning. So now I am trying to find the origional owner/breeder. I would like to know how he is a "champion"


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## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

Tina said:


> The names on this pedigree sound real familiar. Barbarella is Barbara Roark from Oklahoma.
> Lilly is 25% line bred. Yes, breeding father to daughter is done more frequent than you'd think. Alot of people do 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. Too close for me.


 Thanks! I have been looking.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

A pedigree will not tell you if a dog should be shown. Line breeding and in this case in-breeding is used by both BYBs and some of the most famous breeders out there. In-breeding means anything where a father-daughter, mother-son, or sibling and half-sibling breeding occurs. Line-breeding is a term used for anything looser than that. Stacy's upcoming litter would be considered line-breeding, but not in-breeding. 

One of my own former rescue dogs came out of a BYB and was in-bred including a father daughter breeding: 
WebGeneal 4.7.0 (2004.05.01)

My champion boy is considered an outcross, but one of his great-grandmothers was inbred 3x over (father to daughter, father to granddaughter, father to great granddaughter): 
WebGeneal 4.7.0 (2004.05.01)

I have seen one well-known breeder do a breeding that comes up with an even higher COI (co-efficient of inbreeding: 45%) than that one: 
WebGeneal 4.7.0 (2004.05.01)

So as you see, inbreeding is not exclusive to BYBs. But it also does not tell you much about the dog.

I think it is great that you are asking about the pedigrees. Very few people seem look closely enough at them to see this sort of pattern.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

If you are interested in learning more about Maltese and possibly showing, I'd suggest you go to some shows in your area. It might be a fun mother/daughter outing since your daughter is also interested.

Infodog has a calendar with all the shows by state. Look for "AB" (all breed) shows.

InfoDog AKC Dog Show Information - Search by State


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## lilygirl (Jul 7, 2010)

Thanks everyone! I am trying to gather as much info as possible so we can make a good decision on how to proceed. I have to take pics of her paw pads and get yall oppinion on them. I am sure ieven if Lily wont qualify as show quality we will be attending shows. Kyra is very determined in this and is already saving for a new show pup.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Your lily will be a great start for junior showman. She will be great for you to learn how to grow coat. I would be willing to let you have a puppy for junior handling later. Post pictures of her. Paws sometimes stay pink for awhile and then slowly fill in. The important thing is to have fun.:chili:


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

lilygirl said:


> Thanks! I have been looking.


Can you post your pedigree?


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

bellaratamaltese said:


> That's a very true.
> 
> I have a litter due next month that is tighter than I've bred before, but I hope to get some nice pups! The grandfathers are full brothers
> WebGeneal 4.7.0 (2004.05.01)


This is a nice pedigree, Stacy. I hope you have really nice pups from it.


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