# Maltese Hybrids - Why?



## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Why do people get Maltese hybrids instead of the Maltese itself? Outside the rescue context. The goldendoodle and other doodles makes a lot of sense to me because the poodle lineage reduces shedding (sometimes to nearly nothing) and is a very intelligent addition to breeds beloved for looks and temperament like the Golden Retriever. I particularly don't get the maltipoo. The Maltese is already non-shedding and (I think) much cuter than the toy poodle. Do people just want the poodle's trainability? I could see adding Maltese to pomeranian to reduce shedding, but I would just go with a purebred Maltese.

As someone that is not a small dog lover generally, the Maltese is one of the few that remains adorable to me in adulthood. Poms are also very cute as adults, but I think the Maltese edges them out. This is a case, where I think any cross is inferior to the Maltese itself. Or at least I don't know what the goal is. Thoughts? Anyone have a Maltese mix and why did you go with that in addition to your Maltese? (or instead of purebred, though I'd think most here either have or plan to have a Maltese). Pros and cons? Differences you notice between your mix and your purebred?


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

I actually have the opposite point of view on these two popular mixes! As someone who has purebred standard poodles and lives with and cares for my senior father's golden retriever--I think how could in the world could anyone want to mix these two perfect breeds?! Especially the poodle, which is *the best breed*, in my highly biased opinion  

I personally think the poodle/Maltese is the best mix of dog in terms of personality and adorableness. I have owned one (adopted from the SPCA), and I have known many of them. The Maltese seems to even out the energy of the poodle and the poodle adds intelligence. And they are pretty much guaranteed to be hypoallergenic because both of the parent breeds are, unlike doodles, where you can get any type of coat, even in the same litter (in early generations, anyway). For someone with severe allergies, it is something to consider.

A reason someone may prefer a mix is that you are getting "hybrid vigor." This is sometimes the case, but not _always_ the case. Sometimes the dogs inherit the health problems of BOTH parent breeds. And most breeders who mix breeds do not do health testing. So, if anyone wants one of these mixes, I highly recommend they only work with a breeder who does full health testing for all the parent breeds (Standard Testing - Versatility In Poodles, Inc. <------------this is what I used as criteria for my poodles' breeders). Or if you're adopting a mixed breed from a shelter or re-home situation, bless you. You get what you get, but you're doing something good. 

Sorry for rambling


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

No, I appreciate the perspective. I love, love, love goldens. But I've never met a doodle that sheds as much as one, even those with straighter fur that do shed. Hybrid vigor is valid. Maltese are long-lived naturally, but long does not always mean long healthily so I can see that. The better oodle breeders are starting to do full heath testing.



zooeysmom said:


> I actually have the opposite point of view on these two popular mixes! As someone who has purebred standard poodles and lives with and cares for my senior father's golden retriever--I think how could in the world could anyone want to mix these two perfect breeds?! Especially the poodle, which is *the best breed*, in my highly biased opinion
> 
> I personally think the poodle/Maltese is the best mix of dog in terms of personality and adorableness. I have owned one (adopted from the SPCA), and I have known many of them. The Maltese seems to even out the energy of the poodle and the poodle adds intelligence. And they are pretty much guaranteed to be hypoallergenic because both of the parent breeds are, unlike doodles, where you can get any type of coat, even in the same litter (in early generations, anyway). For someone with severe allergies, it is something to consider.
> 
> ...


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

The preponderance of mixes is due to one factor - greed. People are willing to pay thousands of dollars for a "designer dog" while they balk at half that price for a well-bred Maltese. Even the person who originated the "doodle" is sorry he did that and has been quoted as saying he created a monster. Labradoodle Creator Says the Breed Is His Life’s Regret


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Generally agree. There are a lot of bad doodle breeders out there but some very good ones. That said, the reduced shedding is huge, and I can see why that commands a high price. There aren't many large, non-shedding dogs. There are more no to low-shedding small dogs. A show quality, health tested golden retriever puppy with an excellent lineage can run $3,000. They would be more and easily out price the doodles if they were a low shedding dog. Eventually, I think a lot of these mixes will become purebred dogs with set breed standards. Like the bullmastiff did from crossing the the English mastiff and bulldog. That took something like 50 years before AKC recognized. Interesting read from the labradoodle creator.



maggieh said:


> The preponderance of mixes is due to one factor - greed. People are willing to pay thousands of dollars for a "designer dog" while they balk at half that price for a well-bred Maltese. Even the person who originated the "doodle" is sorry he did that and has been quoted as saying he created a monster. Labradoodle Creator Says the Breed Is His Life’s Regret


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jsbrook said:


> Generally agree. There are a lot of bad doodle breeders out there but some very good ones. That said, the reduced shedding is huge, and I can see why that commands a high price. There aren't many large, non-shedding dogs. There are more no to low-shedding small dogs. A show quality, health tested golden retriever puppy with an excellent lineage can run $3,000. They would be more and easily out price the doodles if they were a low shedding dog. Eventually, I think a lot of these mixes will become purebred dogs with set breed standards. Like the bullmastiff did from crossing the the English mastiff and bulldog. That took something like 50 years before AKC recognized. Interesting read from the labradoodle creator.


Goldens around here from very reputable show breeders are anywhere from $3-5000.00
The doodles are running $4000-8000. Its a bidding war around here for them. I’m shocked at some of my clients who fall for the rare breed ex: cobber dog.
My client just paid 8500.00 for this rare breed (cobber dog)which is nothing more than a designer doodle (mutt). He is 4 months old and has gi issues already.
Actually, on my dogs IBD forum, there are more doodle owners than any other breed, as young as 12 weeks old with some serious gi issues. 
Maggie is right. It’s nothing more than greed from these so-called breeders And then a lot of heartache for the owner when the health issues arise.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

There is no difference between a "doodle" and a maltipoo. Both bred for greed.

People say they get a doodle because they want a low shedding dog - THEN GET A POODLE. They come in all sizes, colours, can have a variety of haircuts. They are a wonderful and very cute breed (even if you don't think so). A poodle in a cut that leaves their face longer looks so similar to the doodle breeds (and usually has a much nice coat).


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Many purebred dogs are also bred for "greed." I personally love my doodle and think he is much cuter than any poodle and has an amazing temperament with a lot of retriever elements with no to minimal shedding. I would have been happy with a purebred golden but the rest of my family would not. Not all doodle breeders sell them at crazy prices either. Sure, there are bad ones. And the nature of it being a mix makes it easier for them to exploit people. But there are also a lot of yappy, neurotic poodles from bad lines, particularly in the smaller varieties. I don't put much stock in purebred snobbery. Every current breed was once a mix and mutt as its breed standards were established. As to Maltese, though, I prefer them to maltipoos based on the ones I've met. Certainly from an appearance perspective, and there is no need to cut shedding of Maltese because they don't. 



Orla said:


> There is no difference between a "doodle" and a maltipoo. Both bred for greed.
> 
> People say they get a doodle because they want a low shedding dog - THEN GET A POODLE. They come in all sizes, colours, can have a variety of haircuts. They are a wonderful and very cute breed (even if you don't think so). A poodle in a cut that leaves their face longer looks so similar to the doodle breeds (and usually has a much nice coat).


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

I don't know anyone buying doodles for $4,000 let alone $8,000 except possibly the toy and teacup variety. I agree those are a complete gimic. Better off buying a toy poodle if you want a tiny dog as there is basically no retriever left anyway when they get that small. It's usually accomplished through artificial insemination and several generations of crossing back to purebred poodles. 



maddysmom said:


> Goldens around here from very reputable show breeders are anywhere from $3-5000.00
> The doodles are running $4000-8000. Its a bidding war around here for them. I’m shocked at some of my clients who fall for the rare breed ex: cobber dog.
> My client just paid 8500.00 for this rare breed (cobber dog)which is nothing more than a designer doodle (mutt). He is 4 months old and has gi issues already.
> Actually, on my dogs IBD forum, there are more doodle owners than any other breed, as young as 12 weeks old with some serious gi issues.
> Maggie is right. It’s nothing more than greed from these so-called breeders And then a lot of heartache for the owner when the health issues arise.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jsbrook said:


> I don't know anyone buying doodles for $4,000 let alone $8,000 except possibly the toy and teacup variety. I agree those are a complete gimic. Better off buying a toy poodle if you want a tiny dog as there is basically no retriever left anyway when they get that small. It's usually accomplished through artificial insemination and several generations of crossing back to purebred poodles.


Not sure where your from but I’m north of Boston and that’s the Doodle prices around here. You can’t touch a Doodle for under 4 grand, unless your the new doodle breeder around town and then you can pick them up for 2500.00 on the low end. Like I said, it’s a bidding war around here.
The bottom line is, a doodle is a mix and everyone that buys one is just contributing to the huge problem of BYB/high end puppymills.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

jsbrook said:


> Many purebred dogs are also bred for "greed." I personally love my doodle and think he is much cuter than any poodle and has an amazing temperament with a lot of retriever elements with no to minimal shedding. I would have been happy with a purebred golden but the rest of my family would not. Not all doodle breeders sell them at crazy prices either. Sure, there are bad ones. And the nature of it being a mix makes it easier for them to exploit people. But there are also a lot of yappy, neurotic poodles from bad lines, particularly in the smaller varieties. I don't put much stock in purebred snobbery. Every current breed was once a mix and mutt as its breed standards were established. As to Maltese, though, I prefer them to maltipoos based on the ones I've met. Certainly from an appearance perspective, and there is no need to cut shedding of Maltese because they don't.


Yes, there are bad breeders of purebred dogs, but there are no good breeders of mixes. 
There may be doodle breeders that do a good job of socialising their pups and don't over breed, but they are still only breeding for profit. 

There is no need for doodles - everything people want in them they can get in a well-bred poodle.


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Orla said:


> Yes, there are bad breeders of purebred dogs, but there are no good breeders of mixes.
> There may be doodle breeders that do a good job of socialising their pups and don't over breed, but they are still only breeding for profit.
> 
> There is no need for doodles - everything people want in them they can get in a well-bred poodle.


That's your opinion. And I disagree. But little point in continuing to argue about it here. It's really not relevant to Maltese anyway.


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

Doodles here cost about the same as purebred show-bred standards--$2,000-$3,000. But I've seen in other parts of the country where they cost more than the purebred. 

Jsbrook, just look at this face and tell me that's not adorable! My purebred Maizie in a more "doodle" haircut. (And it's totally fine if you disagree--we all have our own taste .)


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

I'm not saying there can't be cute and beautiful poodles. And Maizie is a cutie. I just don't think it's correct to say that everyone that owns a doodle can get what they're looking for with a poodle. That may or may not be true. There are flat coated doodles that closely resemble retrievers in looks and temperament but still shed a lot less.(Lookswise, I favor the blocky head and broader muzzle of the retriever)

As far as creating fancy puppy mills, I think you could say that to lesser or greater degrees about anyone who goes with a breeder for any breed. There are certainly Maltese as well who are in shelters and rescues and yet people get from breeders (some great, some not). I'm not looking down on those who use breeders. I do myself. Just saying.

I fear the post has gone off track. Maybe it was a wrongheaded post to start with. I was just really wondering what the perceived advantages to Maltese mixes are as I didn't perceive any off the bat, while I do see less shedding, and temperament advantages to some doodle combinations compared to either purebred parent depending what you're looking for. Also hybrid vigor if the parents are selected well and health tested. Goldendoodles have been around for awhile now, and I think the evidence is strong that the average one lives longer than the average golden retriever. I'm less knowledgeable about other doodles, but I think that will definitely hold true for bernedoodles compared to the short lived, health compromised Bernese Mountain Dog. And bernedoodles tend to resemble the Berner to a greater degree than the average goldendoodle resembles the golden retriever. I think it's a good option for those who haven fallen in love with Berners but want a longer-lived, healthier dog. 



zooeysmom said:


> Doodles here cost about the same as purebred show-bred standards--$2,000-$3,000. But I've seen in other parts of the country where they cost more than the purebred.
> 
> Jsbrook, just look at this face and tell me that's not adorable! My purebred Maizie in a more "doodle" haircut. (And it's totally fine if you disagree--we all have our own taste .)
> View attachment 274740


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

I think it's a valid discussion, jsbrook, and I think you make good points.


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Thanks. 



zooeysmom said:


> I think it's a valid discussion, jsbrook, and I think you make good points.


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

zooeysmom said:


> I think it's a valid discussion, jsbrook, and I think you make good points.


Timely post relevant to this thread today from a goldendoodle breeder in a facebook group I'm in.

Elizabeth Kiley, I have been breeding Goldendoodles for 18 years. it is not something you go into lightly if you are going to do it right. As Judi mentioned, the health testing you need to do is extensive, OFA hips, elbows, heart, thyroid, cerf for eyes (Although that has changed now to a new name I don't remember off the top of my head) and a full DNA panel. Then, you need to be ready to not breed if your doodle does not pass all of these with the minimum required passing grades.

You also have to be prepared that if your girl has problems delivering that you may need to have a C-Section so you need to know of a vet nearby that can do those and has experience doing them. My breeder vet who has done probably close to 10,000 of them, charges me about $1500 for it. A regular vet or emergency vet may be double that if not more.

Yes, you may make a little money on these pups if you do everything right and are ethical about it, but it is not going to make you rich nor repalce a FT job, although it will be a full time job whenever you have puppies on the ground.

My pups sell between 2400-2700 and I have not raised my price to the ridiculous amounts others are now trying to do to make a killing off of this covid madness. Again, it is because it is not about the money but about breeding amazing family and therapy dogs that make a huge difference in people's lives. My first litter went home about 16 years ago, many of those doodles are still around. I am available to any of my doodle families by phone or email whenever the have a question or concern. All of my pups go home with at least a 2 year health guarantee that I extend to 3 years if they use any of the food or diets I suggest for the first 3 years. The best breeders do that.

While it may sound like I am discouraging you, I am not, I just want to make sure that when a new doodle breeder enters the market that they are as responsible as possible. We are the black sheep breeders of the breeding world because other "pure bred" breeders look down on us and those who are unaware of the how amazing a doodle is, think they are just expensive mutts.

Just do it right. Be proud of what you do. Be ethical. Then enjoy the process. it is a lot of work but the reward you get when you have that family show up with their 8 year old kid who has been begging for a puppy for years and finally he or she is coming to pick out that pup. Man it chokes me up every time.

Good luck and I am happy to be a resource for you so that you can do it right.

By the way my kennel name is Jennifer's Canines (My wife) and our site is www.jenniferscanines.com, feel free to use the info there as a reference.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

I really don't want to be harsh as I know you have a doodle, but the above breeder has so many red flags. I think it's a puppy mill. 

The vast majority of their sires and dams are purebred goldens and poodles. They've been breeding for 18 years - why have they not developed their own line? Isn't that what doodle breeders claim they're doing - developing a breed? You need to go further than just constantly buying purebred dogs and crossing them. 

They have several planned litters in the coming months. Any breeder (purebred included) shouldn't be breeding right now. It's not safe for new owners to properly socialise a puppy due to Covid and social distancing. 

If you want to meet the breeder and dams you have to go to a "second facility". How many dogs do they have that they had to get a second property for them? 

They have three upcoming litters mentioned yet only one of the dams named is on their "our dogs" page. They have a lot more dogs than they portray. 

The worst thing of all - they have the facility to submit a very large deposit for a puppy on their website using Paypal and other pay methods. Do they not want to at the very least speak to a potential owner over email or phone before taking their money? They don't appear to want to know even one detail about the person buying one of their puppies.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

I live in Ireland, which is known as the puppy mill capital of Europe. We have so many here and I see how they present themselves online. It is like the above post from that doodle breeder. They say so much about health guarantees, testing etc. but it's all just a front as people don't know any better. I am not saying that the breeder you mentioned is lying about health testing, but the majority of buyers will never ask for proof.


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Orla said:


> I really don't want to be harsh as I know you have a doodle, but the above breeder has so many red flags. I think it's a puppy mill.
> 
> The vast majority of their sires and dams are purebred goldens and poodles. They've been breeding for 18 years - why have they not developed their own line? Isn't that what doodle breeders claim they're doing - developing a breed? You need to go further than just constantly buying purebred dogs and crossing them.
> 
> ...


Lol. So much wrong with this post. But here's just one thing: SO MANY breeders are breeding right now, including top of line Maltese breeders like CHRISMAN Maltese and Judy Pondo and top golden retriever breeders I know as well. When you live on a large farm with tons of animals and 4-5 longtime family dogs as pets, you can properly socialize puppies. Plenty of breeders are keeping up with puppy culture, early neurological stimulation, and all of the cutting edge techniques to give pups the best starts. It's not like large numbers of strange humans are parading through to visit puppies during normal time because of parvo concerns. I really think you are speaking from a place of ignorance. I'll leave it at that...


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Orla said:


> I live in Ireland, which is known as the puppy mill capital of Europe. We have so many here and I see how they present themselves online. It is like the above post from that doodle breeder. They say so much about health guarantees, testing etc. but it's all just a front as people don't know any better. I am not saying that the breeder you mentioned is lying about health testing, but the majority of buyers will never ask for proof.


This post was from a private breeder's group as a response to someone who wants to get into breeding if it wasn't clear. Telling them all it entails to do it right. Not a public pitch to people potentially buying a puppy in case it's not clear.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

jsbrook said:


> Lol. So much wrong with this post. But here's just one thing: SO MANY breeders are breeding right now, including top of line Maltese breeders like CHRISMAN Maltese and Judy Pondo and top golden retriever breeders I know as well. When you live on a large farm with tons of animals and 4-5 longtime family dogs as pets, you can properly socialize puppies. Plenty of breeders are keeping up with puppy culture, early neurological stimulation, and all of the cutting edge techniques to give pups the best starts. It's not like large numbers of strange humans are parading through to visit puppies during normal time because of parvo concerns. I really think you are speaking from a place of ignorance. I'll leave it at that...


You're completely misrepresenting what I said and twisting it. 

I did say that I thought no breeder should be breeding right now - including pure bred.

I said socialisation when the puppy gets to the new owner. If I had a puppy I'd want to be bringing it everywhere to make sure it was well adjusted and used to people and animals - you can't do that if you're social distancing in public.

And yes, I know that breeder was not pitching a sale in the facebook post, I was referring to their website


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## Abella's Mommy (Mar 31, 2019)

Be nice.....words matter! We're all family here.


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

I can appreciate that. But puppy socialization is possible while still masking and staying 6 feet from strange humans. Puppy socialization classes are still happening. Doggie daycare is still happening. Home Depot and Loew's and Petco still let dogs in. Many people let strangers touch their dogs and pet and such on walks. I agree with you that the pandemic brings challenges for socialization, but I think it can certainly be done and know a number of puppies right now who are doing beautifully. As to your other point, many doodle and other designer dog breeders do not want to develop their own lines. Some do and focus on multigens and there are some clubs with longterm goals of standardization and developing into a new breed. But some breeders focus on F1 crosses. They claim hybrid vigor, and I think there is some good evidence of that, especially with certain breeds. But, really, I think it's just easier. It's a lot easier to breed that way than worry about consistency of coat and bringing out certain temperament traits, etc...I fully agree there. But that doesn't mean they are bad breeders or the dogs can't be healthy and socialized. 



Orla said:


> I really don't want to be harsh as I know you have a doodle, but the above breeder has so many red flags. I think it's a puppy mill.
> 
> The vast majority of their sires and dams are purebred goldens and poodles. They've been breeding for 18 years - why have they not developed their own line? Isn't that what doodle breeders claim they're doing - developing a breed? You need to go further than just constantly buying purebred dogs and crossing them.
> 
> ...


No, not every breeder wants to d


Orla said:


> You're completely misrepresenting what I said and twisting it.
> 
> I did say that I thought no breeder should be breeding right now - including pure bred.
> 
> ...


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

I'm going to leave this thread.

I pointed out several huge red flags that I found within minutes on the website of the breeder you posted as an example of a good doodle breeder. They really do appear to be a puppy mill, but I can see from your response in calling me ignorant that you don't want to accept that what I said are in fact very worrying details.

I think it's difficult to find a very good breeder of any breed, but they are out there. I've come across show breeders that I would NEVER buy a dog from and non-show breeders who do health test, have a very small number of dogs (less than 5), raise their puppies amazingly and only accept the best homes for them.


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## Abella's Mommy (Mar 31, 2019)

Orla said:


> I'm going to leave this thread.
> 
> I pointed out several huge red flags that I found within minutes on the website of the breeder you posted as an example of a good doodle breeder. They really do appear to be a puppy mill, but I can see from your response in calling me ignorant that you don't want to accept that what I said are in fact very worrying details.
> 
> *I think it's difficult to find a very good breeder of any breed, but they are out there. I've come across show breeders that I would NEVER buy a dog from* and non-show breeders who do health test, have a very small number of dogs (less than 5), raise their puppies amazingly and only accept the best homes for them.


During my long search for a maltese breeder - I also found that some top notch breeders get "worn-out" and loose their love of the breed - and it turns into a business. One was once a top notch maltese shower at Westminster and knows her stuff. Sadly, the love of the breed wasn't there any longer. Time to retire!


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## jsbrook (Jul 4, 2020)

Abella's Mommy said:


> During my long search for a maltese breeder - I also found that some top notch breeders get "worn-out" and loose their love of the breed - and it turns into a business. One was once a top notch maltese shower at Westminster and knows her stuff. Sadly, the love of the breed wasn't there any longer. Time to retire!


Agree with all this!


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Abella's Mommy said:


> During my long search for a maltese breeder - I also found that some top notch breeders get "worn-out" and loose their love of the breed - and it turns into a business. One was once a top notch maltese shower at Westminster and knows her stuff. Sadly, the love of the breed wasn't there any longer. Time to retire!


Yes! There is so much more than just showing dogs to be a reputable breeder. It's not enough to breed pretty dogs if they're stuck in cages all their life and not socialised. I've seen awful things from show breeders and awful things from puppy mills.


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