# MIGHT be getting a malt tomorrow



## sunnydays (Apr 18, 2005)

I might be getting a maltese tomorrow. Someone I know is giving hers up because she found out she got accepted to an internship this summer. 

I'm a bit iffy about it though because the puppy is REALLY young. She's barely 8 weeks old. I think she got her from a BYB from the newspaper. Anyway, she had her first vet visit over the weekend and was given a clean bill of health, got dewormed, and her first set of shots. 

I have to discuss it with my boyfriend first because we weren't really expecting a puppy until September or so, but this just fell on my lap this morning when I found out. She is a real cutie and a sweetheart! I played with her for a bit earlier. I wanted to take her home right then and there. I wish I had pictures to post. 

So I'm in need of advice. Maybe a pro / con list or something. So far here is my list:

PROS: i get to have a puppy earlier than expected, she comes with all her belongings (crate, bed, food, toys, etc)
CONS: young puppy (7-8 wks), don't know much about her breeder

so what do you all think? I am at a fork in the road here. My friend is leaving in about 3 weeks.


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

A puppy that young is going to have to be watched really closely. Do you know how much it weighs? I've never had a puppy that young but I know there are a lot of people on here that can help you. If you do get her make sure you keep some Nutrical on hand. The puppy will also need to be let out to go potty every 2-3 hours. You should not allow other dogs and cats around it since it will not have all of its shots.

Please don't think I'm trying to talk you out of getting the puppy. I just want you to realize that a puppy that young will need a lot of attention.


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## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

This is one of the big problems with getting an animal of any kind. You need to be ready to take this little bit of a thing into your home and heart for the rest of THEIR lives. Getting a puppy and then "moving on" is a huge reason so many puppies end up in rescues. Please be sure that you are well aware of all the issues involved with taking this puppy.

A pup from a BYB may come with a laundry list of health issues, are you ready and able to take these issues on?? I am talking big money if they are not well and coming from a BYB may mean they are well right now, but may not be later.

Is YOUR life settled, do you know you will have this little angel for maybe 13 years or more?? Are you ready to be there for this puppy for it's whole life? Everything you'll do, vacations, moving, getting married, school, having children will revolve around this puppy. They are people pups, they need LOTS of attention and love, all the time, not just when someone is able to be there for them. This puppy will need lots of love and attention at this young age. Please think about it clearly, looking ahead to your OWN future. How will this affect you and your boyfriend in the future. Would this puppy be better off with someone that has a more settled life?

I hope you take these things into consideration before making a committment to this puppy, because if somewhere down your road you want to move on and give the puppy up is it fair to her to be passed on to someone else? She has a right to be with a stable family and bond with someone that will love and keep her forever.....


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## sunnydays (Apr 18, 2005)

Thanks Lexi's Mom! I was hoping someone would quickly respond.

YES exactly what I was feeling. I am very concerned about the puppy being so young. Not only are their the health concerns but also social concerns because I know that staying with its mom is very vital in it's early life. It's mother has to teach it so much more like socialization. 

Her weight right now is 2lbs. I'm worrying about hypoglycemia and all that. 

I am not concerned about the puppy getting my time and attention as of yet. I have a lot of free time right now. I am working from home right now as a webdesigner and finals has just ended. I don't have anything big coming up until late August and even then, I am walking distance to school and don't stay there for more than 2 hrs at a time. 

The age and the puppy's family history and upbringing are the two most important concerns I have (and those are really BIG concerns). 

PLEASE more advice... keep it comin


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## sunnydays (Apr 18, 2005)

oh and i forgot to add that I don't have any other pets. never had any pets in this apartment aside from my rabbit that passed away a year ago.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

How long has your friend had it if it is only 7-8 weeks?


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

Here is a good article on Why is there a 12 weeks rule


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## sunnydays (Apr 18, 2005)

you gave me a lot to think about sisses momma. :new_Eyecrazy: 

honestly, i don't know where i will be in 5, 10, 20 years, but does any of us know? all i know is that i will give all my love and attention to whatever furry companion that comes into my life. here is my story:

i had a rabbit named kobe. i loved kobe with all my heart. he was my angel. i got him when i started college here in california (3 years ago). my cousin gave him to me after the "easter bunny" phase wore off. my aunt bought him at a pet store. like dogs, rabbits from petstores come from "rabbit mills".

anyway, after about 2 months with me, kobe stopped eating. so i brought him to the vet and the vet diagnosed him with malocclusion. it's a genetic disease where the rabbit's bottom teeth grow into the gums of the upper part of their mouth. the only choice was to get a very expensive surgery to remove his teeth altogether. so i took a freelance webdesign job and paid for it. even though i was a poor college student. i was NOT going to let my baby go. 

so we got the surgery done and he was a happy bunny for the rest of his life until the end when his liver suddenly shut down. i have never loved any pet like kobe. That was a year ago and i didn't think i could love any other the same until one day i saw my very first maltese pup. and now i am ready again to devote myself and my heart. it was very difficult for me to come this far.

i was ready to reserve a malt from martha thomas for her sept. litter, but this came up today and i just really need some point of views. 

thanks for reading my story if you got this far. it felt really great to let that out.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I applaud you for thinking this decision through so carefully. 

You are right to worry about socialization and other issues since the puppy was taken from her mother and litter mates so young. From what I have read some very important lessons are learned in the 6-10 week age period, including bite inhibition and socialization with other dogs.

You are also right to worry about this puppy's background. As Sisse's Mom said, a puppy from a backyard breeder or puppy mill can be carrying "genetic time bombs" that won't go off for many years. So getting a clean bill of health from the vet now is no guarentee this puppy will stay healthy. You might want to read the thread on Loca's Vet visit to see what kind of tests should be done to be reasonably sure a puppy is healthy, including blood work, and ultrasound of heart and lungs, knees checked for luxating patellas and a liver bile acids test. No matter where you live, these tests will be quite expensive. Another thing to consider is that if your friend got any sort of health guarentee, it may become void if the puppy is transferred to you.

As Sisse's Mom pointed out, the puppy you choose will hopefully be with you for many, many years. These years can be happy and carefree or they can be heartbreaking and financially devestating. Liver shunt surgery runs about $2000 and knee surgery $1500 and up. (Maltese are genetically prone to both conditions). From one who has a poorly bred Maltese, my advice would be to wait and save up for a puppy from the best breeder you can find/afford, even if it takes longer to save more money. It has been my sad experience that it's "pay me now or pay me later". My Lady is both diabetic and epileptic, has a heart murmur, severe inflamatory arthritis and allergies. I spend about $150 a month on medications and diabetic supplies alone. I have spent enough at my vet's office that they should name an examining room after Lady! I am older and an empty nester so I can (sort of!) afford this, but expenses like that could be crippling to a student or someone who wanted to have a family later on.

Worst of all, though, is the heartbreak loving a chronically ill dog can bring. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## sunnydays (Apr 18, 2005)

okay, i have to post again.

i re-read all the replies and i am leaning towards NOT getting the puppy. purely based on the young age and the unknown background. 

now i need advice on what i need to do to help my friend find her pup a proper home. i hate to think that the pup is going to show unhealthy signs later on or behavorial problems and have her passed from home to home.


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## sunnydays (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@May 3 2005, 11:59 AM
> *Worst of all, though, is the heartbreak loving a chronically ill dog can bring. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59303*


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I wouldn't wish that on anyone either. Especially when you could've tried to avoid it by going to a reputable breeder


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I would contact Northcentral Maltese rescue and let them help. They can foster the puppy and then find a home. They are extremely particular about placement (have you seen their application... a zillion pages!)... so she would get a great home.....
Northcentral Maltese Rescue

I think you are wise to wait for the right puppy that has all the best chances at good health, proper temperament, etc.


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## sunnydays (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@May 3 2005, 12:07 PM
> *I would contact Northcentral Maltese rescue and let them help. They can foster the puppy and then find a home. They are extremely particular about placement (have you seen their application... a zillion pages!)... so she would get a great home.....
> Northcentral Maltese Rescue
> 
> ...


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Thanks for the link!









I feel better already







I was getting nowhere googling "maltese rescue" i kept getting nyc rescues. do you know of any maltese rescues in california?


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)




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## gigimom (Apr 17, 2005)

I agree with the others. You want to enjoy your new addition, not regret it. It's not impossible that everything could turn out for the best but as you've pointed out, there are a lot of questions surrounding this little one. 

Good luck in your decision making process and keep us all posted.


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by sunnydays+May 3 2005, 02:11 PM-->
> 
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Thanks for the link!









I feel better already







I was getting nowhere googling "maltese rescue" i kept getting nyc rescues. do you know of any maltese rescues in california?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59310
[/B][/QUOTE]
The Northcentral Maltese rescue is actually a national organization.


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## Teddyandme (Feb 6, 2005)

I hope I am not going to be a spoiler here but I must say this...Sometimes God puts things in our paths that are just supposed to be. I would have never picked my husband but I loved him after only 3 dates. All the questions you are asking are right but sometimes love has to take over...how did you feel about this little one. 

This could be a wonderful rescue story...this is a little puppy who could still be trained as you want him...someone will be getting this little one...to love and care for. There are no absolute outcomes in any puppy you may be owned by...as there are no Guarantees...why not be thankful that this little one was put in your path early...you never know what might happen.

S


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

I still wonder how long the friend has had the pup if it is only 7-8 weeks old...







? Did she not know the internship was a possibility? She couldn't have the pup for too long...why can't she ask the breeder to take it back? It is still young enough to find another home...







Maybe the breeder would even give her part of the money back if she told her the situation.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by sunnydays+May 3 2005, 02:05 PM-->
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I wouldn't wish that on anyone either. Especially when you could've tried to avoid it by going to a reputable breeder








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59308
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Lady is a rescue, so I didn't get her from the pet shop. She was abandoned by her first owner when she started having seizures. She was tied up outside with no food or water in 100 degree heat when her owner moved away without her. She was there for 3 days before my neighbor got an email from the woman and asked about Lady. Jen ran over there in the middle of a thunderstorm to rescue her even though she had just had chemo a few days earlier. She is Lady's rescue angel.

Lady's former mom is an example of a person who just couldn't cope with the results of what probably was not a well thought out decision to get her. She had two sons at home when she bought her, but both left home a few years later at 18. Lady was then crated most of the time. Jennifer said Lady was always dirty and matted. This woman apparently had financial problems trying to raise her sons on her own and just couldn't handle veterinary bills. So she just left her to die.


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## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by sunnydays_@May 3 2005, 12:54 PM
> *I might be getting a maltese tomorrow.  Someone I know is giving hers up because she found out she got accepted to an internship this summer.
> 
> I'm a bit iffy about it though because the puppy is REALLY young.  She's barely 8 weeks old.  I think she got her from a BYB from the newspaper.  Anyway, she had her first vet visit over the weekend and was given a clean bill of health, got dewormed, and her first set of shots.
> ...


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Due to unforeseen circumstances, I got my little girl, Abby at about 7 weeks of age. I'm not going to lie - it's hard and it's stressful at that age. To be honest, as much as I loved her, I stressed like crazy until we hit the "safe" 12 week age.

If you are going to take this puppy on, it will take constant CLOSE supervision & lots of love and attention (remember that this pup would usually have Mum's & siblings' love & attention in this time). I stressed a lot - so much that I had Abby at the vet's very often getting her checked to make sure everything was ok - that she was gaining weight, that she was healthy, that I was feeding her properly, that she wasn't showing any signs of illness.... (Edit: Sorry, I should also add that Abby was my first puppy - so I had the added stress of not knowing if I was doing the right thing)

Please take her to work with you. If you can't do that, please arrange for someone who knows what they are doing to take care of her for you. Don't leave her on her own and go to work or anything - she needs to be watched. Make sure she's eating and be sure to take her on regular vet visits - they are well worth your while. My vet was a saviour to me - with his guidance I got through it just fine.

BUT despite the stress, I did love this time because it allowed me to truly understand what was involved in taking care of a puppy. And when she got a little older, it seemed easier... now I know the signs if she gets sick and can usually pick them up quickly, I know what I need to do - yes I panic if she gets sick but I don't completely psych out. I know what I need to do. This time was also a real bonding time for me & Abby.









Hope there was some help in here. I just wanted to say that no, it's not ideal - but it is possible.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins_@May 3 2005, 07:04 PM
> *I am only going to say this once, but it is on my mind so I am going to say it.  I for one am getting sick and tired of those that ALWAYS belittle and downplay all BYB.  Digby came from a pet store, before I knew any better, and no I would never buy from a pet store again.  So far, she is now 7 years old, she is healthy except for a trachea problem, but I am unsure if she was born that way or it happened when she was very young and practically pulled my arm out of socket when she saw a rabbit for the very first time and yanked so hard to get to it.  Also Casper we dont really know the background of his Mom and Dad entirely.  So far he is healthy.
> 
> My point is that health issues can crop up in any breed from any breeder.  No doubt about it though that pups from a pet store most likely have a poor start in life especially if they came from a puppy mill.  Not every single pet sold in a pet store comes from a puppy mill, some might come from a loving home where oops two dogs got together and ooops made puppies.  I am not promoting pet stores by any means.
> ...


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I know this is a sensitive issue for you, but I respectfully disagree. Those who may warn of the possible health issues with BYB, Puppymills, Pet Stores, etc. are not stating a personal opinion, but rather the unfortunate facts. They are not speaking just to those of us who have Malts already but to the many people who come to SM looking for information before purchasing a puppy. 

Here is what happens.... a pet store sells a puppy who develops a genetically based disease. Since the breeder and owner have no connection with each other, the breeder doesn't find out about the disease and so keeps breeding even though this genetic disease keeps getting passed on to more puppies. And sometimes the puppymiller does find out about the genetic disease, but because they are in it for the money, they just keep on breeding, as we learned from Adora Bella on SM regarding Sonshine. 

I bought my first Maltese, Rosebud, and Kallie from a BYBs. They were both wonderful ladies. The puppies were lovingly raised in their beautiful homes. The problem, however, was that each were breeding two pet store dogs. They had not a clue about genetic diseases nor how to care for the dogs. Kallie's sire and dam were running in and out of the house in to an unfenced yard. Who knows what sort of diseases they could have brought in to the puppies that were in the house. It is a miracle she didn't get parvo or who knows what. The nice lady just didn't know any better... not did I, at the time.

In the past I had heard of people breeding champion dogs and thought to myself, "why in the world do I need a puppy with champion parents; I only want a pet." The very idea of such a thing was totally foreign, and even repulsive, to me. But now that I have learned so much about breeding, my views have changed. I think that is part of having an open mind. As we are exposed to new information, sometimes it means that we need to re-think old assumptions and open up to new truths that come our way.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins_@May 4 2005, 12:01 AM
> *Gee so I guess it can come down to if you want to look at this way, if a human parent has lets say diabeties, they should not produce any offspring because they knowlingly are passing a gene to their son/daughter?
> 
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59538*


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Marilyn, that is why they have genetic testing.... Muscular Dystrophy runs in my family... before my cousin got pregnant she and her husband went through genetic counseling to see if it was wise for them to have children. Yes, humans do choose not to have children due to genetic diseases; I think with treatable diseases most choose to go ahead and have children, as well they should. With a devasting disease that greatly affects quality and length of life, a lot of people may not choose to do so. Still, dogs are dogs and people are people... I don't think their breeding is something that can or should be compared.... apples and oranges....

I can't help but wonder why those who complain of the BYBs being unfairly slammed often mention the money. If both a BYB and show breeder were charging the same amount, I wonder if people would still feel so protective of the BYB.

Yes, Kallie, at three years old has not had any health issues at all... KNOCK ON WOOD!! 

Well, this is certainly an issue that could be debated all day on here.... I don't mean to perpetuate a "hot" topic... so I'll end it here....


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I just want to add my two cents here....if a BYB uses two "pet shop" puppies, how is that any better than purchasing from a puppy mill? I don't mean to insult anyone by this....I am curious why that might be an acceptable practice. In our search for breeders we came across several who I thought were "questionable"
....including a very well known show breeder! I guess my point is that we all have different levels of comfort for what we want. There are no guarantees that my dog will never have a problem. What I can guarantee is that her risks for genetic problems have been minimized through a very selective breeding program. Instead of comparing genetic testing to that done in humans, I like to use the analogy of saftey ratings in cars. You can purchase a car that exceeds all the safety standards, gets the highest ratings from consumer testing groups, and drive observing all the laws....but that still doesn't guarantee your saftey. Those extra options cost a lot of money, and as a parent with three kids, you bet I want them all....I am doing it to reduce my risk. Same reason I selected my breeder. I wanted to reduce the risk of genetically inherited diseases, conditions, and faults.


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## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by saltymalty_@May 4 2005, 08:11 AM
> *I just want to add my two cents here....if a BYB uses two "pet shop" puppies, how is that any better than purchasing from a puppy mill?  I don't mean to insult anyone by this....I am curious why that might be an acceptable practice.  In our search for breeders we came across several who I thought were "questionable"
> ....including a very well known show breeder!  I guess my point is that we all have different levels of comfort for what we want.  There are no guarantees that my dog will never have a problem. What I can guarantee is that her risks for genetic problems have been minimized through a very selective breeding program.  Instead of comparing genetic testing to that done in humans, I like to use the analogy of saftey ratings in cars.  You can purchase a car that exceeds all the safety standards, gets the highest ratings from consumer testing groups, and drive observing all the laws....but that still doesn't guarantee your saftey.  Those extra options cost a lot of money, and as a parent with three kids, you bet I want them all....I am doing it to reduce my risk.  Same reason I selected my breeder. I wanted to reduce the risk of genetically inherited diseases, conditions, and faults.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59609*


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Very well said!! I agree 100%!


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

Back to the topic

Here is an idea, not sure if you’re going to like it. Since she is a friend, maybe you could ask her if she minds you taking her to a vet of your choice to have her examined first.
You could be out 100.00 but at least you would have some peace of mind. Oh course it dose not guarantee there will not be health issues later down the road, but that can happen with any puppy..
I saw the picture of her you posted and she looks soo sweet and adorable.
Good luck with your decision


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Unfortunately, the tests she would need to have done would be way more than $100. Dhodinia is going through that with Loca and I can only imagine what the bloodwork, ultrasound of heart and lungs, complete physical and a bile acids test set her back.

And that still wouldn't give Sunnydays piece of mind. There is no test to predict epilepsy or diabetes. My Lady has both and didn't show symptoms of any genetic problems until age 4&1/2.

The puppy is adorable, but did you ever see a Maltese puppy that wasn't? It's what lies within if she's poorly bred, what you can't see, that can bring huge vet bills and heartbreak later on.

Health problems down the line can happen with any puppy, as you say, but buying a puppy from a less-than-reputable breeder is a bit like playing russian roulette. As Saltymalty says, why not reduce your risk as much as possible by buying from the best breeder you can find? As the author of the Dogs for Dummies article I posted earlier pointed out, people spend more time checking out microwave ovens before purchasing one than they do a dog who will (hopefully) be a member of their family for many years.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by saltymalty_@May 4 2005, 10:11 AM
> *I just want to add my two cents here....if a BYB uses two "pet shop" puppies, how is that any better than purchasing from a puppy mill?  <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59609*


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Yes, you're right.... about breeding two pet store puppies... about the same as buying from a pet store... the only difference is that at least Rosebud and Kallie did not live in the deplorable conditions of a puppymill and weren't trucked to a pet store in the middle of the night and put in a cage in a store, etc. Gentically, there isn't any difference but at least their start in life wasn't bad. And at least it doesn't support a puppymill... they don't get any benefit of this union of two pet store pups. But now that I know better, I will not buy from BYBs (hobby breeders) again.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@May 3 2005, 01:59 PM
> *I applaud you for thinking this decision through so carefully.
> 
> You are right to worry about socialization and other issues since the puppy was taken from her mother and litter mates so young. From what I have read some very important lessons are learned in the 6-10 week age period, including bite inhibition and socialization with other dogs.
> ...


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Just as an FYI-

Bile acid test $94.00
Ultrasound $125
Exam $45
Fecal $12
Shots $27
Albon $13


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I have always stayed away from the arguments here.....and I'm not going to take up tons of room here with quotes from everyone.....but I'm really on the fence on this one! I agree almost totally with both sides--Momtwomaltmuffins, K/C's Mom, Saltymalty, and LadysMom!

I guess it goes like this: I deplore and won't buy from a puppy mill or anyone supplied by one. I agree about the unknowns of a BYB puppy--even if the "breeders" are wonderful people with seemingly healthy dogs with excellent care. Not letting price influence...I would much rather have a dog with a guarantee from a good breeder that stands behind their dogs and is willing and anixous to help me. There is a lot of comfort in that.

Then....I also know some show breeders who are wonderful people who would basically give their lives and fortunes for their animals, they do all the right things including testing and using dogs for breeding with the best healthy bloodlines. They give guarantees with their puppies and keep them until they are at least 12 wks. But even their champion show dogs do get sick and have all variety of problems! Liver shunt is often not discernable until mid-live. A family of dogs without patella problems can still have off-spring who stress or injure their knees. etc, etc......

As I've said before, Frosty (who's 13), is the product of, I guess you could say, a BYB. Like K/C's Mom said, I don't intend to do that again....he was only 7 wks. when he came 200 mi. home with us. We didn't have a clue what we were doing! And his "breeder" gave us absolutely no help in figuring out how to feed and care for a baby maltese. But on the other side of it, he has been amazingly heathly! The main regret is that he wasn't socialized with his dog family long enough, and that we were totally ignorant of the Maltese breed!

There just is no guarantee a person or a dog with all the best of everything will never have a problem! We can only do the best with what we are able to learn. If "love" at first site in a not too favorable situation causes us to throw caution to the winds and take a bigger chance by getting our little love from a BYB.....what will be will be. That doesn't mean we don't know it would be a more comfortable chance if it was an actual breeder of exceptional dogs. We don't condone indiscriminate breeding, and certainly not a puppy mill type operation and do not ever want to be accused of perpetuation of them. Nothing involving starting a relationship with a pet is black and white. The rescue of little Loca for instance.
That is my point of view.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@May 4 2005, 06:11 AM
> *I can't help but wonder why those who complain of the BYBs being unfairly slammed often mention the money. If both a BYB and show breeder were charging the same amount, I wonder if people would still feel so protective of the BYB.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59556*


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Money *is* an issue with some of us...as it obviously is *not* with others. If I was wanting a "show" dog and to use the dog for purposes such as that...I can see paying 1000+ for a "show" dog.







But I absolutely cannot see the paying that much money for a "pet". Why should I care about show lines for my pet? Even if I COULD pay that much for a pet, I wouldn't. It really seems ludicrous to me. Now, if a breeder who did not have champion lines, told me that their pups were a little more because she did the genetic testing or whatever, that would be a little different. But again, when those of you continually state that byb's are not "reputable" and that the pups are just "vet-bills waiting to happen"-whether you say you are "educating" those that come to read/gather info or not...it *still* makes those of us who have pups from your "less than reputable breeders" feel less than adequate or inferior...like our babies don't measure up! I know mine probably wouldn't win the Eukanuba Tournament of Champions...but he has won my heart!!! Why should I have to pay a gosh-awful amount of money for *that*?! It is not necessary!

Why should maltese only be for the wealthy?!














I guess maybe if many of you saw the kind of house I live in, the car I drive, the clothes I wear...I guess maybe I am only mutt-worthy.









This subject wears me out!







The high and mighty attitudes anger me. There are lines that are crossed over whether some of you will admit it or not. Education is one thing..but you can educate without making other people feel inferior. -_- 

(and YES, I have PMS!







)


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tlunn+May 4 2005, 04:00 PM-->
> 
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Money *is* an issue with some of us...as it obviously is *not* with others. If I was wanting a "show" dog and to use the dog for purposes such as that...I can see paying 1000+ for a "show" dog.







But I absolutely cannot see the paying that much money for a "pet". Why should I care about show lines for my pet? Even if I COULD pay that much for a pet, I wouldn't. It really seems ludicrous to me. Now, if a breeder who did not have champion lines, told me that their pups were a little more because she did the genetic testing or whatever, that would be a little different. But again, when those of you continually state that byb's are not "reputable" and that the pups are just "vet-bills waiting to happen"-whether you say you are "educating" those that come to read/gather info or not...it *still* makes those of us who have pups from your "less than reputable breeders" feel less than adequate or inferior...like our babies don't measure up! I know mine probably wouldn't win the Eukanuba Tournament of Champions...but he has won my heart!!! Why should I have to pay a gosh-awful amount of money for *that*?! It is not necessary!

Why should maltese only be for the wealthy?!














I guess maybe if many of you saw the kind of house I live in, the car I drive, the clothes I wear...I guess maybe I am only mutt-worthy.









This subject wears me out!







The high and mighty attitudes anger me. There are lines that are crossed over whether some of you will admit it or not. Education is one thing..but you can educate without making other people feel inferior. -_- 

(and YES, I have PMS!







)
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same here







(well not the PMS part)


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LadyMontava+May 4 2005, 04:02 PM-->
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*
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same here







(well not the PMS part)
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Me TOO (but no PMS) Traci,you said it WAY better than I could !!!!


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

I have never thought anyone acted or spoke "high and mighty" around here. Besides for PMS why is this a money issue for you? K\Cs mom said that she wondered if there wasnt a money issue if people would be so defensive of bad breeding? Would you? Would you rather have an unhealthy puppy because you wanted to save money, or would you rather work on the issue of everyone breeding to some sort of standard _money not considered_? I think that was the point she was trying to make. Lady's mom who has said over and over how much her Lady has cost her over the years, I certainly dont think she is acting high and mighty, and she has invested way more than alot of us on Lady. 

I certainly have never thought maltese are for the wealthy, and I know alot of other breeds of dogs cost alot of money. There is a higher cost with anything that does not have as big a supply. For instance larger dogs who have 8+ puppies in a litter. That simply doesnt happen with malts, hence the larger $ tag to begin with. 

Call me naive, but I never thought the discussion about breeding had this much to do with $. I said in another post that I agree that any and all ideas to promote healthy breeding should be within the limits to keep the costs reasonable... I have seen many maltese suspiciously advertised for FAR more than I paid for Phoebe.

edit: I want to add that I'd like to think this is about the animals and their well-being first and foremost.


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## puppylucy (Jan 8, 2005)

i'm sorry if you feel people are being high and mighty traci









i agree w/holliberry. i never really realized that the money was a big issue in the whole byb vs 'reputable' breeder debate. i always thought it was more just the quality of the dog, etc.

i too have seen poorly bred dogs selling for much more than lucy was... in fact, when i looked in the newspaper the other day,







i saw an ad for a maltese, "champion", akc registered.... $5000 :new_Eyecrazy:


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Holliberry_@May 4 2005, 04:25 PM
> *I have never thought anyone acted or spoke "high and mighty" around here.  Besides for PMS why is this a money issue for you?  K\Cs mom said that she wondered if there wasnt a money issue if people would be so defensive of bad breeding?  Would you?  Would you rather have an unhealthy puppy because you wanted to save money, or would you rather work on the issue of everyone breeding to some sort of standard money not considered?  I think that was the point she was trying to make.  Lady's mom who has said over and over how much her Lady has cost her over the years, I certainly dont think she is acting high and mighty, and she has invested way more than alot of us on Lady.
> 
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I am not defensive of bad breeding...we all just have different opinions of what "bad breeding" and "reputable breeders" are. It wouldn't matter to me. My point is....if I wanted a "pet"-I would not pay 1000+ for it. *Period.* 
If the money was not an issue...of COURSE I would want a healthy pup...but I am still not sold on the idea that only the champion bloodlines from "reputable breeders" are the only healthy pups. Like I said before...would I pay a little more if the breeder said they did the genetic testing..yes...

And just for the record, I brought *no names* into my original post.
It is not just my PMS feeling that people are high and mighty on here at times...because I feel this throughout the months/weeks...not just THIS week.







AND I am not the only person that feels this way.


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## puppylucy (Jan 8, 2005)

traci - 

i agree w/ you about the fact that some 'hobby breeders' still produce healthy pups. just cuz they dont costs millions of dollars doesn't mean your baby still isn't healthy


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

My question is why is there such a drastic price range on different breeds? 

I mean people who show shitzu's incure similar costs why are maltese so much more? 

I do not think it is fair to say you are not wealthy enough to own this dog. I know people who have no money who deserve a maltese more than some with millions, why? because they value the dog. They gave things up to afford it they work hard the money to care for him. I don't think maltese should cost upwards of 2000 dollars. That is insane if you are breeding for the quality of dog and betterment of the breed wouldn't you want that dog to go to the best family wether they could pay your fee or not? 

Infact lets flip it. Why do breeders demand such high dollar for their animals? They want to come out ahead. I don't care if it is a show breeder, they are still aiming to achieve some kind of profit. If they weren't their dogs would go to the best home possible even if it ment the family could only afford $450.


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## MaltTease (Mar 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+May 3 2005, 05:12 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
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I know this is a sensitive issue for you, but I respectfully disagree. Those who may warn of the possible health issues with BYB, Puppymills, Pet Stores, etc. are not stating a personal opinion, but rather the unfortunate facts. They are not speaking just to those of us who have Malts already but to the many people who come to SM looking for information before purchasing a puppy. 

Here is what happens.... a pet store sells a puppy who develops a genetically based disease. Since the breeder and owner have no connection with each other, the breeder doesn't find out about the disease and so keeps breeding even though this genetic disease keeps getting passed on to more puppies. And sometimes the puppymiller does find out about the genetic disease, but because they are in it for the money, they just keep on breeding, as we learned from Adora Bella on SM regarding Sonshine. 

I bought my first Maltese, Rosebud, and Kallie from a BYBs. They were both wonderful ladies. The puppies were lovingly raised in their beautiful homes. The problem, however, was that each were breeding two pet store dogs. They had not a clue about genetic diseases nor how to care for the dogs. Kallie's sire and dam were running in and out of the house in to an unfenced yard. Who knows what sort of diseases they could have brought in to the puppies that were in the house. It is a miracle she didn't get parvo or who knows what. The nice lady just didn't know any better... not did I, at the time.

In the past I had heard of people breeding champion dogs and thought to myself, "why in the world do I need a puppy with champion parents; I only want a pet." The very idea of such a thing was totally foreign, and even repulsive, to me. But now that I have learned so much about breeding, my views have changed. I think that is part of having an open mind. As we are exposed to new information, sometimes it means that we need to re-think old assumptions and open up to new truths that come our way.
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Very well said!


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## puppylucy (Jan 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dhodina_@May 4 2005, 07:09 PM
> *Infact lets flip it.  Why do breeders demand such high dollar for their animals?  They want to come out ahead.  I don't care if it is a show breeder, they are still aiming to achieve some kind of profit.  If they weren't their dogs would go to the best home possible even if it ment the family could only afford $450.
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i never thought of that.. but youre soo right


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

I am on both sides of the fence here. We are definitely poor at this point in our lives and could not even afford the $800 we paid for Miko. We used our last cash to do it. We ended up with a cutie who unfortunately had 2 luxating patellas and some behavior issues. I know the patella problem could happen from any breeder and even the ones that show but just don't test the dogs. Different vets have told me that they have seen luxating patellas on dogs ranging from great breeders to pet stores pups. The behavior (dominance) issue is just lack of training at a critical time in Miko's life. I don't know, I do wish we researched the breed more. However, even if we did, we could not have afforded the $2500 for a pet quality male I have seen some great breeders charge. I know Miko does not fit the maltese standard, but who cares? We still love him all the same.

Its not very fair to then say we should just have a mutt because that's all we can afford. We already drive crappy cars, wear less than brand clothes and live in a tiny apartment. Why couldn't we have a little white furball to love and dote on? On the other hand, we couldn't afford the $2400 surgery this baby needed for his knees either (but we somehow will manage and did get him the surgery). I don't know (I should stop saying this). 

Honestly, I know better now but if I was offered a little maltese puppy no matter where it was coming from, I would definitely take it!!


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by okw_@May 4 2005, 09:38 PM
> *I am on both sides of the fence here.  We are definitely poor at this point in our lives and could not even afford the $800 we paid for Miko.  We used our last cash to do it.  We ended up with a cutie who unfortunately had 2 luxating patellas and some behavior issues.  I know the patella problem could happen from any breeder and even the ones that show but just don't test the dogs.  Different vets have told me that they have seen luxating patellas on dogs ranging from great breeders to pet stores pups.  The behavior (dominance) issue is just lack of training at a critical time in Miko's life.  I don't know, I do wish we researched the breed more.  However, even if we did, we could not have afforded the $2500 for a pet quality male I have seen some great breeders charge.  I know Miko does not fit the maltese standard, but who cares?  We still love him all the same.
> 
> Its not very fair to then say we should just have a mutt because that's all we can afford.  We already drive crappy cars, wear less than brand clothes and live in a tiny apartment.  Why couldn't we have a little white furball to love and dote on?  On the other hand, we couldn't afford the $2400 surgery this baby needed for his knees either (but we somehow will manage and did get him the surgery).  I don't know (I should stop saying this).
> ...


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Thank you. You have proved one thing better than any words can say. Those who love their dog wether they are rich or poor will find a way to do what is medically needed. That kind of puts a dent in the "you can't afford medical care in an emergancy" defense. Where there is a will there is a way.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dhodina+May 4 2005, 07:55 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you. You have proved one thing better than any words can say. Those who love their dog wether they are rich or poor will find a way to do what is medically needed. That kind of puts a dent in the "you can't afford medical care in an emergancy" defense. Where there is a will there is a way.
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dhodina,

HA! We just came back from a vet where we spent another $200 on vet exam, urine culture, urinalysis and antibiotics. Miko obviously has a UTI - what are we supposed to do, just watch him suffer? Of course not. I figured we already owe $100,000 in loans by the end of my med school, whats a few more thousand?


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I think what I'm going to tell you is going to shock some of you. 
I've sold six Maltese pups in the last three years. I'm talking about dogs from my show dogs--champion sired male, mom with excellent pedigree and confirmation....
Guess what? I sold one for $400 and another for $850. Why? Because I liked the people, and I knew they would give my babies the best home possible. The one sold for $400 went to a lady I had gotten involved in rescue. She had rescued a Maltese, as well as another dog, and she had spent a lot on them. I wanted her to have my baby, and I just couldn't see charging her more than that.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@May 4 2005, 09:01 PM
> *I think what I'm going to tell you is going to shock some of you.
> I've sold six Maltese pups in the last three years.  I'm talking about dogs from my show dogs--champion sired male, mom with excellent pedigree and  confirmation....
> Guess what?  I sold one for $400 and another for $850.  Why?  Because I liked the people, and I knew they would give my babies the best home possible.  The one sold for $400 went to a lady I had gotten involved in rescue.  She had rescued a Maltese, as well as another dog, and she had spent a lot on them.  I wanted her to have my baby, and I just couldn't see charging her more than that.
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Wow!! That's great and kind of you (since you could be charging more)







.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

It won't be the last time I do it. I have my Maltese for me. They are my therapy. If I didn't have them, I would probably need to see someone like me :new_Eyecrazy: I just want to raise some very nice show dogs I can love and be proud of. I know there will be some, from time to time, who need to go to a pet home, and the type home is more important than the amount I get for them.


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## puppylucy (Jan 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@May 4 2005, 11:01 PM
> *I think what I'm going to tell you is going to shock some of you.
> I've sold six Maltese pups in the last three years.  I'm talking about dogs from my show dogs--champion sired male, mom with excellent pedigree and  confirmation....
> Guess what?  I sold one for $400 and another for $850.  Why?  Because I liked the people, and I knew they would give my babies the best home possible.  The one sold for $400 went to a lady I had gotten involved in rescue.  She had rescued a Maltese, as well as another dog, and she had spent a lot on them.  I wanted her to have my baby, and I just couldn't see charging her more than that.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=59922*


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you're the kind of breeder i like


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by okw+May 4 2005, 10:02 PM-->
> 
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dhodina,

HA! We just came back from a vet where we spent another $200 on vet exam, urine culture, urinalysis and antibiotics. Miko obviously has a UTI - what are we supposed to do, just watch him suffer? Of course not. I figured we already owe $100,000 in loans by the end of my med school, whats a few more thousand?
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Just out of curiousity what meds did they give him? Tunny has been fighting a UTI for a few weeks now.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

dhodina,

I believe the antibiotic he is on is clavamox which is amoxicillin with something else. I am at work and I can give you the complete name when I get home. Have you taken Tunny to the Vet?


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

Yep he has been quite a few times for it. He is on baytril I was just interested to see if they put them on the same meds.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Lady had a stubborn uti last fall that Baytril didn't clear up. My vet cultured her and it was Clavamox she needed.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@May 5 2005, 09:37 AM
> *Lady had a stubborn uti last fall that Baytril didn't clear up. My vet cultured her and it was Clavamox she needed.
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Marj,

I am just curious, when they culture do they get sensitivities of the bacteria to antibiotics? That's what doctors do for people but I wasn't sure if that's what doggies get also!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Yes, they do exactly what they do for people. They take a sterile urine culture to figure out what particular bacteria is causing the infection.


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