# what kind of face do u think dolce has?



## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

ok eventhough i have read and read about babydoll faces and shorter muzzles and wideset eyes , im still not sure what type of face dolce has , i used to think he had a babydoll face til i came here and ive seen some of ur babies faces ? what do u think?


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Don't think this is the official term, but I would say, "Steal your heart face :wub:" 

I'm sure others way more knowledgeable then me will help out. But I still say , Steal your heart face


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

allheart said:


> Don't think this is the official term, but I would say, "Steal your heart face :wub:"
> 
> I'm sure others way more knowledgeable then me will help out. But I still say , Steal your heart face


:thumbsup:i agree but im biased :blush:


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

IMO it's so hard to tell from pics...depending on the angle you shoot from, muzzles appear shorter or longer even on teh same dog  ... I think the babydoll face is supposed to refer to malts with very short muzzles (but again, it's relative). 

I agree with the others - Dolce has an adorable face...a gorgeous little malt. The pic in your avatar looks 'babydoll' to me, while the one in your first post looks like a little more average size muzzle...a lovely lovely little face. I wouldn't worry about pigeonholing Dolce....he's your babydoll no matter how anyone interprets that phrase


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

What a "babydoll face" is depends on who you ask. There is no official definition. The description many use describes a babydoll face incorrect to our breed standard...so I wouldn't encourage the use of the term. 
Describe your dog's facial features in your own words and enjoy kissing that little nose.


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

i think ur right !!


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## Johita (Jul 10, 2009)

Yeah, I don't think the babydoll face is standard, but its oh so cute!


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

I think Luigi (my new baby boy) is a little Ewok....you know, from Endor. LOL!


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

Actually, he kinda looks like a little teddy bear, too.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

Deleted.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

ilovemymaltese said:


> This is a picture of a puppy from some breeder's site, I forgot though, but this puppy will not have a tiny muzzle, this cutie will have a longer muzzle when older. *Notice that the blue is an equilateral triangle, which is not the tye of triangle we want to see. And you don't want to see a lot of the red circle or any of it at all. *If that makes any sense?
> http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p283/imjuskoolykedat/pupfix.jpg


Why do you not want an equilateral triangle? When I draw the same triangle (eye rim to eye rim, to tip of nose) on both of my dogs (now or when they were pups) I get an equilateral triangle. Jax and Kenzie are both from great breeders who breed to the *standard*. Jax's muzzle is a bit longer than Kenzie's. Their eyes are "set not too far apart" - as the AKC standard states - which is why there is the equilateral triangle to their "muzzle of medium length".

I agree that Dolce has a "steal your heart face"


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

MandyMc65 said:


> Why do you not want an equilateral triangle? When I draw the same triangle (eye rim to eye rim, to tip of nose) on both of my dogs (now or when they were pups) I get an equilateral triangle. Jax and Kenzie are both from great breeders who breed to the *standard*. Jax's muzzle is a bit longer than Kenzie's. Their eyes are "set not too far apart" - as the AKC standard states - which is why there is the equilateral triangle to their "muzzle of medium length".
> 
> I agree that Dolce has a "steal your heart face"


Yes, but when people ask me when they DO want a tiny muzzled malt(*I mentioned in my post*)

Heck, I don't care personally, LOL they're all adorable to me(*also mentioned in my post*).

Now if only I can go to breeders and ask them for a "steal you heart" faced pup. :wub:


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## stampin4fun (Jun 24, 2009)

"*what kind of face do u think dolce has?"*

A cute one :wub:

Sorry I am not help  But he is adorable.



Off topic - I'm from the Bronx. I lived at 238th street white plains road. I also lived around Webster Ave. Where are you?


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

ilovemymaltese said:


> The "babydoll" term is probably the most subjective out there. LOL
> 
> I just want to repeat that yes, malts muzles can look longer or shorter at different angles. When members who are puppy searching ask me if a pup will have a standard or shorter muzzle I show them this. I made this up to give an easy visual. This is a picture of a puppy from some breeder's site, I forgot though, but this puppy will not have a tiny muzzle, this cutie will have a longer muzzle when older. Notice that the blue is an equilateral triangle, which is not the tye of triangle we want to see. And you don't want to see a lot of the red circle or any of it at all. If that makes any sense?
> http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p283/imjuskoolykedat/pupfix.jpg
> ...


Aww, that's my baby Ava! Shes got a muzzle...believe it or not. it's just covered with hair. I think you get a better look when the dogs are wet...


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

allheart said:


> Don't think this is the official term, but I would say, "Steal your heart face :wub:"
> 
> I'm sure others way more knowledgeable then me will help out. But I still say , Steal your heart face


Christine -- I think the "official" term is "too cute for words" face. :thumbsup:


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

stampin4fun said:


> "*what kind of face do u think dolce has?"*
> 
> A cute one :wub:
> 
> ...


i used to live in 259 st , a long time ago in riverdale , but for the last 15 yrs i live right off the grand concourse 175th.


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

Dolce couldn't be more sweet. He's beyond adorable and has the cutest face!


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

aww thank u , i think all ur malts are precious too !


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

ilovemymaltese said:


> The "babydoll" term is probably the most subjective out there. LOL
> 
> I just want to repeat that yes, malts muzles can look longer or shorter at different angles. When members who are puppy searching ask me if a pup will have a standard or shorter muzzle I show them this. I made this up to give an easy visual. This is a picture of a puppy from some breeder's site, I forgot though, but this puppy will not have a tiny muzzle, this cutie will have a longer muzzle when older. Notice that the blue is an equilateral triangle, which is not the tye of triangle we want to see. And you don't want to see a lot of the red circle or any of it at all. If that makes any sense?
> http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p283/imjuskoolykedat/pupfix.jpg
> ...


brianna, who asks you about muzzle length? Why do you get asked that question so much? Do you have permission from the breeders whose site you took that pic from to share it in this way? And where do you get all your 'info' from? Do you have an experienced breeder mentoring you?

To the OP, I asked that same question when I first came on this site when I had just got my first maltese, Lucy. The answers I got were pretty much the same as yours, the it's subjective and no, probably not. But you know what? I wouldn't trade Lucy's face for anything. Her face is very balanced and petite. I think Dolce is darling!


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

bellaratamaltese said:


> brianna, who asks you about muzzle length? Why do you get asked that question so much? Do you have permission from the breeders whose site you took that pic from to share it in this way? And where do you get all your 'info' from? Do you have an experienced breeder mentoring you?
> 
> To the OP, I asked that same question when I first came on this site when I had just got my first maltese, Lucy. The answers I got were pretty much the same as yours, the it's subjective and no, probably not. But you know what? I wouldn't trade Lucy's face for anything. Her face is very balanced and petite. I think Dolce is darling!


 
thank u !


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

***Original quote and accompanying web site links removed***

"Longer" is also a relative term...that puppy with the triangle/circle drawn on looks like it will have a breed standard acceptable muzzle. I'm guessing you made that to demonstrate your idea of whether it would have a 'babydoll' muzzle (ie, more pugged? I don't mean 'smashed' when I say pugged, just very short. Right? I think it's just personal preference anyway... when I think of Angel maltese, for example, I think they have the shorter muzzle lengths generally speaking... Tajon's are a bit longer but also lovely looking and Champion winning faces... I'm happy there is such subtle variety to be had


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

allheart said:


> I would say, "Steal your heart face :wub:"


I can't help it, but agree  :wub:


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## Snow White (Dec 6, 2009)

TheMalts&Me said:


> I can't help it, but agree  :wub:


Ditto. :thumbsup:


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

bellaratamaltese said:


> brianna, who asks you about muzzle length? Why do you get asked that question so much? Do you have permission from the breeders whose site you took that pic from to share it in this way? And where do you get all your 'info' from? Do you have an experienced breeder mentoring you?


I am about as confident as I can be that permission was not granted to use that picture from either the breeder or the new owner. I am also confident that no one gave permission to draw all over her face. :smmadder:

That is one of Cadeau's daughters. Delilah Rose's littermate. 

If she is lucky enough to take after her father she will not have the babydoll face. She will have what I consider to be the perfect triangle between here eyes and nose as her Daddy has.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

CloudClan said:


> I am about as confident as I can be that permission was not granted to use that picture from either the breeder or the new owner. I am also confident that no one gave permission to draw all over her face. :smmadder:
> 
> That is one of Cadeau's daughters. Delilah Rose's littermate.
> 
> If she is lucky enough to take after her father she will not have the babydoll face. She will have what I consider to be the perfect triangle between here eyes and nose as her Daddy has.


Wow, that was one of Dodo's babies? I knew the puppy was familiar but I couldnt' place it. Now that I know whose puppy it is - OMG. I'm shocked.

Briana, I just have to ask - what gives you the right to take a picture off of a breeders website and draw on it and try to say that it is in INCORRECT FACE????? 

If you want to make a diagram, use your own dog. Do not take someone elses pictures and say it will have a longer muzzle. This puppy will have a nice moderate muzzle, WELL WITHIN THE STANDARD.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

CloudClan said:


> I am about as confident as I can be that permission was not granted to use that picture from either the breeder or the new owner. I am also confident that no one gave permission to draw all over her face. :smmadder:


So, yet again, Briana has posted something not owned by her or given to her for the purpose of making public? That's two for two, Briana. Yesterday you posted a link to unpublished web pages owned by someone whose permission you did not seek before posting. Today you posted a picture that you stole (yes, I said stole) from someone's website without their permission.



> That is one of Cadeau's daughters. Delilah Rose's littermate.
> 
> If she is lucky enough to take after her father she will not have the babydoll face. She will have what I consider to be the perfect triangle between her eyes and nose as her Daddy has.


I was going to stay out of this thread but I just can't keep my mouth shut any longer. Who is mentoring you Briana? Where did you learn (incorrectly in my opinion) about the triangle between eyes and nose? Neither the Breed Standard nor the Illustrated Guide to the Breed Standard discusses the "triangle." How long have you had Maltese? How many real live puppies (not pictures of puppies) have you had the opportunity to examine and evaluate in the presence of an experienced mentor? Until you gain some worthwhile experience you might want to keep your incorrect opinions, your incorrect drawings and your stolen pictures and pedigrees to yourself.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

MaryH said:


> So, yet again, Brianna has posted something not owned by her or given to her for the purpose of making public? That's two for two, Brianna. Yesterday you posted a link to unpublished web pages owned by someone whose permission you did not seek before posting. Today you posted a picture that you stole (yes, I said stole) from someone's website without their permission.
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to stay out of this thread but I just can't keep my mouth shut any longer. Who is mentoring you Brianna? Where did you learn (incorrectly in my opinion) about the triangle between eyes and nose? Neither the Breed Standard nor the Illustrated Guide to the Breed Standard discusses the "triangle." How long have you had Maltese? How many real live puppies (not pictures of puppies) have you had the opportunity to examine and evaluate in the presence of an experienced mentor? Until you gain some worthwhile experience you might want to keep your incorrect opinions, your incorrect drawings and your stolen pictures and pedigrees to yourself.


I also wanted to add that this was not the first time you have posted a picture that didn't belong to you. The last time you posted a pic without permission, it led to that dog being unfairly scrutinized and I know the owner was not happy.

If you are going to post examples of things, PLEASE use pictures of your own dog or get permission. It's not like you didn't know better either.

To the OP, I apologize for the direction this thread has gone.

Oh and one more thing, this is the disclaimer right below the picture that was stolen

*Copyright, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 Exclusive rights to all materials, pictures and graphics on this web-site are owned by "Jacob Maltese". Copies are not free to be used by other persons or sites without the express written approval of the owner.*
So again, you can't say that you didn't know it wasn't ok.


I apologize for my tone here, this has just really upset me. I can't even imagine how the people who are involved with this particular puppy feel!


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

*deleted*


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

maltlovereileen said:


> *Perhaps she doesn't know that there are intellectual property Laws regarding internet use (ownership rights to images and content) ... and also laws regarding slander and libel (stating things that could harm someone else - in this case, their professional business - such as if someone felt that there breeding program was being used as a representation of something undesirable, when in fact it is champion winning, however, the other comments kept a potential customer from purchasing from them based on such erroneous information).* Some business owners will actually sue for damages to protect their reputations. So I think that even though it appears the original comment has been deleted, it is still visible in the "quote" mode on at least one other post - perhaps this whole thread could be pulled and a lesson learned. I'm sure she didn't do this maliciously, I think maybe she's just young and didn't understand that this could have farther reaching implications than she had imagined...


But she didn't mention the breeder's name, company or any other identifiers. Also, she did not use the images for personal profit. From a legal standpoint, I do not think she is liable for slander or libel. Bottom line, I don't think she did anything illegal. 

Her actions might be inconsiderate, or perhaps unethical, but certainly not something that can be punished by law.

Furthermore, I think Brianna is entitled to express her opinions and views on how she judges baby doll faces or whatever else. The OP clearly asked for an opinion on a type of "look" and Brianna gave her assessment, and her own techniques. I don't agree with her methods of drawing on that puppy's face, but she is still entitled to her opinion on a public forum. I think we should cut her some slack.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

*deleted*


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

*deleted*


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

godiva goddess said:


> But she didn't mention the breeder's name, company or any other identifiers. Also, she did not use the images for personal profit. From a legal standpoint, I do not think she is liable for slander or libel. Bottom line, I don't think she did anything illegal.
> 
> Her actions might be inconsiderate, or perhaps unethical, but certainly not something that can be punished by law.
> 
> Furthermore, I think Brianna is entitled to express her opinions and views on how she judges baby doll faces or whatever else. The OP clearly asked for an opinion on a type of "look" and Brianna gave her assessment, and her own techniques. I don't agree with her methods of drawing on that puppy's face, but she is still entitled to her opinion on a public forum. I think we should cut her some slack.



Alice,

I have a question for you. From a legal standpoint, how do breeders or website owners protect the copyright of their images? 

This comes up a lot on the lists as breeders often have pictures stolen off their websites (as this one was) and reused by people without permission, for instance sometimes beautiful dogs from champion parents are used to sell puppies for brokers and mills. Other than putting a disclaimer on the pages saying that use without permission is not authorized, what protection can we have for our pictures? 

Also, what about the pictures we post here on SM. It has also been a problem for some of us here that pictures have been stolen. I try to post copyright logos on all of my photos to deter their theft, but is there anything else we can do? 

I would feel more like cutting Briana some slack if this was the first time she had been told that she should not be taking pictures without permission and if she had not defaced the image of one of Cadeau's daughters. I have no problem with her incorrect opinion that a triangle is undesirable, as I know perfectly well what is desirable and what is not. But I do have a problem with her not asking to use the picture and then defacing it. :angry:

What would your reaction be if someone did this without permission to Mia? or to Gigi? 

I can assure you that most people would have a problem if it were their dog.


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

Briana is 16 or 17...and I'm assuming all the other posters who have jumped all over her are not teenagers by many many years. I don't think any adult should be so *mean* and lash out towards someone Briana's age. There are other more polite and kind ways to convey your views- especially to a teenager. jmo.

PS_ I am not condoning what Briana did, I'm just saying that older people should be more polite towards the younger posters who may make mistakes.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

maltlovereileen said:


> I was definitely cutting her some slack... I think she just didn't fully understand the implications of what she was doing and was trying to help her see what they were from a legal point of view (no drama intended).
> 
> *You should know that many people are easily able to identify a particular breeder by the look of a pup (definitely happened in this case)...*how many times have people correctly guessed who bred a particular pup when someone posted a pic *without saying where they got it*...
> 
> ...


I have been on SM since 2007 and I had no idea which breeder that pup was from. While several SMers were able to identify, I was not. That is why I said the fact that she did not mention the breeder's name, or any other identifier was key in this analysis.

I know you have best intentions but I think this is just being blown out of proportion. She did something that some might find offensive, inconsiderate, or distasteful, but it is not illegal. 


I think it is great that you use to work for an IP lawyer. I am an attorney and my firm has an extensive IP practice group, where I work on an international trademark infringement case. So, YES, I understand IP law very well. And, I stand by my previous remark that Brianna is not legally liable. The causes of actions for IP infringements are much more complex and without taking more time to explain, I reiterate my previous conclusion.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

maltlovereileen said:


> *BTW Goddess, you are allowed to copy FOR PERSONAL USE but once you pass it around the net and or post on a public forum, it is no longer PERSONAL and private but something able to be seen/read by others (thereby the owner no longer controls the content of the image and it definitely wasn't being presented in the way the owner Wanted it to be presented).*.*.it was wrong and it was illegal and slanderous/libelous the way in which it was presented just on this forum even though I know she didn't intend it to be that way.
> *
> Again, I hope this thread just gets a courtesy pull since it's really run it's course so feelings aren't hurt and it's just chocked up to a lesson learned


That is an incorrect interpretation of the law. 

If you want to discuss IP in detail, feel free to PM me, as this is going off topic. Thanks.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

*deleted*


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

*deleted*


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

iheartbisou said:


> Briana is 16 or 17...and I'm assuming all the other posters who have jumped all over her are not teenagers by many many years. I don't think any adult should be so *mean* and lash out towards someone Briana's age. There are other more polite and kind ways to convey your views- especially to a teenager. jmo.
> 
> PS_ I am not condoning what Briana did, I'm just saying that older people should be more polite towards the younger posters who may make mistakes.


I agree except this isn't the first time this has come up with her stealing pictures and posting them here to demonstrate something, so ignorance cannot be claimed here. 

I feel that Briana has a lot of maturity for her age and I have particularly been impressed with how she deals with harsh comments. She handles them very well and doesn't get combative about it. But I do have concerns with the advice she gives sometimes, since not everybody knows she is a teenager and she has a lot to learn. 

Personally, I don't think it's fair to the OP to delete this thread, but perhaps it can be cleaned up a bit.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> Alice,
> 
> I have a question for you. From a legal standpoint, how do breeders or website owners protect the copyright of their images?
> 
> ...


Carina, I totally understand how you feel. I am a bit upset that it was done to Cadeau's daughters actually...never feels good when something like this is done to one of our SM family... Frankly, I found the act of drawing on the puppy quite offensive, even before you revealed the identity of the pup. I didn't know it wasnt Brianna's first time etc but that aside, I still do not agree w/ what she did. If someone drew on Mia's face, I would be really hurt and offended too. I think your reaction is totally normal and understandable. Im sorry you had to deal with this....I need to go to bed now, it is 1:30 AM here..lol..but I will think over your legal question and reply at a later time. ((HUGS))



maltlovereileen said:


> I guess we will have to agree to disagree...because she did infringe on a breeder's copyright when she posted it on this forum
> 
> *end of my discussing this...was trying to help her understand...if you are her friend, perhaps you should do so too so that she doesn't get into trouble if down the road a breeder feels she is hurting their business based on what she has published on a public forum*


I am not disagreeing or debating with you. I am only letting you know that, in my professional opinion as an attorney, your statement was an incorrect interpretation of the law.

You probably don't "know" me well, but I do not post on 
SM to "defend" my "friends." I post to voice my own opinions. Briana and I hardly have any communication; she is not my friend. I just think that she is a kid and weighing the pros and cons, I think we should cut her some slack.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

FYI, just to clear up some confusion, I'm Brianna and ilovemymaltese is Briana. (Perhaps, I'm the only confused one, LOL!) Haha, we're also both around the same age, how cooky. 

I'm slightly more fond of a shorter muzzle and wider set eyes, but I also adore a more standard face, like Stacy's Lucy and Carina's Cadeau (I hope I'm using the right word to describe their faces, it's meant as a compliment). I don't know much about the standard, but I like that there is a little variety in face shapes. 

Back to topic, I think Dolce has a very sweet face. I love his nose. :wub::wub::wub:


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

roxybaby22 said:


> FYI, just to clear up some confusion, I'm Brianna and ilovemymaltese is Briana. (Perhaps, I'm the only confused one, LOL!) Haha, we're also both around the same age, how cooky.
> 
> I'm slightly more fond of a shorter muzzle and wider set eyes, but I also adore a more standard face, like Stacy's Lucy and Carina's Cadeau (I hope I'm using the right word to describe their faces, it's meant as a compliment). I don't know much about the standard, but I like that there is a little variety in face shapes.
> 
> Back to topic, I think Dolce has a very sweet face. I love his nose. :wub::wub::wub:


:back2topic:

Brianna, 

Thanks for the complements on Cadeau. I also would like to move the topic back to Dolce and his beautiful face. I agree with Christine. He has a beautiful "steal your heart" face:wub: 

I tend to dislike the term Baby Doll. To me it is like the term Tea Cup. It is something that is designed to get buyers to be interested in the dog but is not something that show breeders work for. It is about sales rather than about anything described in the standard. Therefore I generally try to avoid it. 

Cadeau's breeder does breed for pretty faces (as well as great structure and elegance). Cacia (also bred by Debbie Cleckley) has what some people would refer to as classic babydoll (her eyes are wider apart and her muzzle is shorter than the distance between her eyes). It does give her a very "cute" expression which is added to by the little upturn in her nose. I tend to prefer to call her face pixie, but that is just my word for it. As Jackie said earlier, I like to find some of my own words to describe my dogs rather than rely on overly subjective cliches. 









Cadeau has the more classic and more standard maltese head. His muzzle is a perfect triangle between his eyes and his nose. I personally think this picture shows his face structure well and to me it is about as ideal as they come. 









Cadie also has a more classic and more elegant face. Her breeder told me clearly when I got her that she would not have a babydoll head as she does not breed for them. She breeds for her interpretation of the standard, which calls for moderation. My interpretation of moderation is balance (i.e. that triangle)


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

uniquelovdolce said:


> ok eventhough i have read and read about babydoll faces and shorter muzzles and wideset eyes , im still not sure what type of face dolce has , i used to think he had a babydoll face til i came here and ive seen some of ur babies faces ? what do u think?


 
I think your Dolce has a precious little face! :wub:

I also dont like the term 'babydoll' .. but thats just me :thumbsup:

Oh, and I REALLY don't like it when people STEAL pictures off websites without permission .. thats really not cool!

Also, I just wanted to say, that defacing a picture is also highly insulting to me. I hope ilovemymaltese has learned a lesson here.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

godiva goddess said:


> I am not disagreeing or debating with you. I am only letting you know that, in my professional opinion as an attorney, your statement was an incorrect interpretation of the law.
> QUOTE]
> 
> LOL...um, what you just said was, in fact, a disagreement - ie, you're wrong and I'm right. But *shrug* ... whatever. I think you know that if someone is mad enough they will sue regardless of the outcome. Do you think a non-attorney would want to get embroiled in the time and expense of defending themself when it could simply be avoided by not pulling someone else's copyrighted images or content to use on a public forum in a manner in which the owner did not intend it to be used?
> ...


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## scrapmaltese (Feb 3, 2006)

No, I did not give permission for this picture to be taken from my web-site or used in anyway, profit or non-profit. Neither did the now owner of this lovely little girl, who by the way has a very beautiful face with a moderate muzzle which is the Standard.

I appreciate that people want to discuss how to determine what a puppy will look like as it grows up. But that should be a discussion between the breeder and the potential new parents. Pictures can be very deceiving as the angle of the camera will lengthen or shorten any muzzle. 

By using the picture in this way you have indicated to the entire viewing audience and by your own omission to "others who ask you about muzzle length" that this baby has an "undesirable muzzle". Her breeder and her owner are offended by that statement and by the use of her picture in this manner. And as her breeder I am proud to say that she actually has a very desirable muzzle length as it "moderate" as is called for in the Standard and she therefore has a perfect bite to go along with her perfect muzzle. 

Please do not "borrow" pictures from my web-site, or any other breeder's website for your own purposes. We work very hard to produce beautiful babies and any discussions about how they will look as adults should be between me and the potential new parents.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

_I tend to dislike the term Baby Doll. To me it is like the term Tea Cup. It is something that is designed to get buyers to be interested in the dog but is not something that show breeders work for. It is about sales rather than about anything described in the standard._

I had never thought of it that way before (sales related) but I agree with you...


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

maltlovereileen said:


> godiva goddess said:
> 
> 
> > I am not disagreeing or debating with you. I am only letting you know that, in my professional opinion as an attorney, your statement was an incorrect interpretation of the law.
> ...


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

scrapmaltese said:


> I appreciate that people want to discuss how to determine what a puppy will look like as it grows up. But that should be a discussion between the breeder and the potential new parents. Pictures can be very deceiving as the angle of the camera will lengthen or shorten any muzzle.


Thanks, Debbie, for your clarification. I agree that depending on the angle of the shot a picture can be very deceiving. Also, as you well know, puppies develop differently as they grow and mature, whether it's head, front, rear, length of neck, leg or body, etc. And who knows better than the breeder how their own lines develop.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I have to say judging a two or three month old puppy's muzzle is a shot in the dark, even for breeders sometimes. 
As for using others pics, it would be nice, even if posting pics of members' dogs on here, to ask the owner and explain the reason for it before posting them. As for Briana's knowledge, we all know teens know a little more than we do. LOL (sorry, Briana, but I'm qualified to say that! LOL)
Dolce has a sweet face


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

wow ! first and foremost I want to say that i did not intend for my question to lead to what it has led to. thanks to everyone that has said they love dolce's steal ur heart face and face to die for , cause i think my baby is perfect lol , i personally think that all maltese dogs are gorgeous , longer muzzle , shorter muzzle and i think the love we have for each n everyone of them shows in their little faces. 

i am sorry someones picture was used to describe what i was asking , i personally didnt really understand the diagram but i dont think briana was trying to do anything malicious, now i do think that if she had used other pics before without permission she should have learned her lesson prior n not posted another pic or drawn on it. hopefully it will not happen again.


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## scrapmaltese (Feb 3, 2006)

I think your baby Dolce has a beautiful face. 

Your question was, what "kind" of face does dolce have..... I think the question reflects what has happened to lovers of Maltese - there is a need to somehow characterize and define their babies in some special way - hence the "baby-doll" etc names for faces, etc. But really the specialness of your baby is in what it means to you personally. My goal in placing any dog is that his/her parents look at it and think it is the most wonderful, most beautiful dog in the world (to them). Your baby is lovely - it doesn't need a special kind of face to be the most beautiful dog in the world to you.


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

scrapmaltese said:


> I think your baby Dolce has a beautiful face.
> 
> Your question was, what "kind" of face does dolce have..... I think the question reflects what has happened to lovers of Maltese - there is a need to somehow characterize and define their babies in some special way - hence the "baby-doll" etc names for faces, etc. But really the specialness of your baby is in what it means to you personally. My goal in placing any dog is that his/her parents look at it and think it is the most wonderful, most beautiful dog in the world (to them). Your baby is lovely - it doesn't need a special kind of face to be the most beautiful dog in the world to you.


 thank u and i totally agree! was looking thru jacobmaltese website n u have some beauties!


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## Cute Chloe (Nov 30, 2009)

I think dolce has a cute, gentle face.

I also don't understand what "babydoll" face means. I think all the fluffs in here look like dolls to me. LOL!

As far as the infamous unathorized triangle, feel free to use Chloe as an example of the standard equilateral triangle formed by the eyes towards the muzzle.

:thumbsup:


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

I think Dolce has a sweet and lovable face. He sure is a cutey. :wub:


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

I didn't plan on posting in this thread again, or at all, but I just thought I should. For closure.

I want to thank all the wonderful members for their sweet heart-felt pms to me. Your kind words meant soo much to me, and brightened my day. Makes me not want to ever give up on the human kind, but I still say to myself daily, I'm going to live in a house full of dogs when I grow up. LOL 

I will tell you all the same thing I sent Carina,
I'm soooo sorry you all upset about this. I did not ever intend for this all to get _SO_ personal. I did not know that was Dodo's baby, she's precious. Like I said before, I couldn't remember where I got that puppy pic from, I just save cute malt pictures in "my pictures" folder on my computer, there's tonss of them. 

I *never* said, or even *implied* that that beautiful face was not ideal to the standard. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that baby. Debbie, I am sorry that you had to be bought into this all. We all know your babies are just so adorable. There is no lesser or greater face on a maltese of course. I simply was exclaiming the difference in visuals, whether truth or not. If it wasn't so cute, I wouldn't of saved it to my computer awhile ago and forgot where I got it from originally.

So once again, in case somebody missed it because it's easy to overlook things(I would know),* I'm soo sorry*. Just so this all doesn't happen again, I won't be posting anymore pictures on here anymore, or even words anymore for that matter. Not for awhile. You don't have to ask me anything anymore(regarding pms) I know nothing of breeding, showing, raising pups, and deffinately no law. I was never mentored either. I'm just a teenager trying to raise her GPA and pass precalculus. There are other more experienced members here that will be sure to answer all your questions, truthfully, politely and kind-heartedly(...hopefully...). But in the meantime, I wanted to wish you all happiness and health for you and your malties. 

Don't worry about me. I took none of this personally, just seems to be a lot more drama here than at my high school, so I think it's time to me to go now. I know that is what some of you may want, I know MaryH, but that was made clear ages ago, so no surprise here. I think I'm going to just stick to the relationships with people I know "in person"(I seem to do a lot better with those?) and concentrating on school so I can get a scholarship to the college I want to go to next year. 

So farewell my SM, until we meet again, like on Facebook. LOL
:grouphug::grouphug:
Briana


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

ilovemymaltese said:


> I didn't plan on posting in this thread again, or at all, but I just thought I should. For closure.
> 
> I want to thank all the wonderful members for their sweet heart-felt pms to me. Your kind words meant soo much to me, and brightened my day. Makes me not want to ever give up on the human kind, but I still say to myself daily, I'm going to live in a house full of dogs when I grow up. LOL
> 
> ...


:grouphug::grouphug:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I don't want to see you go but I think the biggest problem is that you 'stole' a picture (again) drew on it and posted it. I didn't see you addressing that in your post and hopefully you understand why that is not a good thing to do. 

I appreciate your apology and I hope you don't go.


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## Purple-peep (May 14, 2009)

Your little dolce has the sweetest face!:wub:


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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

CloudClan said:


> :back2topic:
> 
> Brianna,
> 
> ...


Carina... I go back and forth on who I think is the cuter girl LOL.. which proves, cute is cute, no matter WHATCHA wanna call it!! 

Feather has a more "babydoll" face, a bit shorter muzzle but she is just small. She's very balanced. Some of the dogs with the eyes so wideset and the shorter muzzles, IMO, aren't a very good interpretation of the standard... Ritzy, has a cute adorable face as well, and maybe a tad more of a traditional look. ... she is so appropriately named, she is so classic (IMO) I just love her face. 

I sure want to see your girls, in a few days (can you believe it, a FEW days..I better gets my rear in gear and off this computer!!). I bet I still won't be able to "pick" which one I think is cuter ))

ps.. I am sorry for what went on here. I would be upset, if one of my dog's babies were pointed as to be "faulty" when in fact, is what the standard calls for. The trend here, seems to be for that shorter muzzle wider head....but be careful folks, we have Maltese, NOT Shih Tzus!!!


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Your babies are A-D-O-R-A-B-L-E!!!!!!! Love your siggy pic!! :wub:



maltsnme said:


> Carina... I go back and forth on who I think is the cuter girl LOL.. which proves, cute is cute, no matter WHATCHA wanna call it!!
> 
> Feather has the "babydoll" shorter, upturned nose... Ritzy, has a more traditional look. I used to think, I loved Feather's look so much, but you know... Ritzy is so appropriately named, she is so classic (IMO) I just love her face.
> 
> ...


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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

sophie said:


> Your babies are A-D-O-R-A-B-L-E!!!!!!! Love your siggy pic!! :wub:


awww..thank you. they pose well, it's not my photogenic ability, trust me


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## Purple-peep (May 14, 2009)

Maltsnme all your babies are so beautiful! 


I have a few questions for the show breeders please:yes:

If you're breeding to the standard, can a baby doll face pop up? Do you have to breed a certain way to get a baby doll face? 

If baby doll Malts are shown, how do they fair in the ring in compairison to a more standard looking Malt?


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

I think it looks like an adorable MALTESE face:wub:

My personal preference is the more classic maltese face with a bit longer nose, which I guess is why I love Tajon babies. The so called "baby doll" heads are certainly cute but I love the elegance of the traditional head.


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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

Purple-peep said:


> Maltsnme all your babies are so beautiful!
> 
> 
> I have a few questions for the show breeders please:yes:
> ...


thank you for the comments on my girlies.  As far as "babydoll" ...there are many different ideas on what a babydoll face even is. The Maltese standard says "moderate" so if you are breeding to better the breed to the standard, you want to keep it to these guidelines. Because the Maltese standard is so open to interpretation, as there are not disqualifying faults in our breed.

So, in saying that, you will get some dogs "outside" of the standard. Also, when you breed for extremes, you will get dogs that revert back to "moderate" because that is nature's way of coming back to normal. of course you will get breeders who breed for a look, not necessarily "baby doll" because that is what they prefer and feel it is within the limits of the standard. 

I prefer a moderate, elegant dog. THAT fits what the standard says. 

I hope that helps.


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