# Neuter or Not To Neuter?



## munchkin1616 (Dec 8, 2005)

My Nikko is approx 8 y/o and originally, the vet said that, since he has no history of problems, is kept away from other dogs, and never mounts, that neutering isn't considered something that's really necessary.

However, I'm his 4th (and final) home and he was never trained in the others (they believed that it was easier to clean a puddle/pile than to remember to walk him regularly). While I've been able to teach him to sit, shake, lie down, roll over, and ask when he wants a bone, I can't housebreak him for the life of me! 

I've tried taking him out every 10 mins, I've tried treats when he goes outside, I've tried keeping him leashed to me so I can watch him, and I've tried just about everything I can find as a suggestion. Regardless, he marks anything with a strong scent; the side of the trash can, the toilet, any plastic bag on the floor (from shopping, etc), the leg of a chair after someone with perfume's sat in it... 

So now I'm reconsidering neutering as I have read that it makes dogs less likely to mark. *Has anyone had any experience with this*? I'd hate to do it and have it not work, both because it'd be unnecessary surgical stress to put him under (which scares me majorly on its own) and because it's otherwise seemed cruel to me to take away his manhood without there being a risk of breeding.

Also, *has anyone had a dog whose personality changed after surgery?* I adore Nikko (other than his frequent accidents) and I don't want him to change!

Thanks for any advice/thoughts/help!


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Hi,
I just had Nemo neutered , but he is only 8 months. He did for whatever reason stop marking, he
started marking 2 weeks before the surgery. I know any vet or mostly any tells you to neuter
cause it reduces the risk of cancer and roaming and aggression. But your baby is 8 yrs old, so I am
not sure. I do know the older the dog the more risk with surgery. I'm sorry I can't help more, but
other people here know way more than me. I'm sure they can answer your question better.
Whatever you decide Good Luck.. And no he's personality did not change at all.



Andrea~


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## lacey (Oct 17, 2005)

We had Toby neutered in February after he turned 6 months, just a few weeks prior to that I noticed that he was starting to mark and since he's been fixed he hasn't done it at all. I've also noticed that he doesn't try to mount Daisy at all. He used to chase her around trying to get at her the poof thing!


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## LMJ (Feb 16, 2006)

What does your vets say regarding doing this at such a late stage?

I had Jeffery neutered at 6 months. He hadn't started marking, but he was humping everything. He did stop humping after the surgery.

As far a getting him house broken, have you tried crate training? I've seen this recommended in house breaking articles on the net in regards to older dogs.


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## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

Pacino is 10 months old and getting neutered next week on Friday. I personally recommend neutering for health reasons as it is much healthier for them as they are at less risk for cancer and other ailments. I would ask your vet about his age though, but as long as he is healthy I don't think it should be a problem, although I am definitely not a vet. I am quite sure that Jamie knows better then us about this.

As far as training him, you can do it with lots of patience, as he has been set in his ways for 8 years now. Have you tried pee pee pads?? Put it in a spot where he sees it and everytime you catch him give him a stern NO and bring him to the pee pee pad...it is a lot better then the furniture and the floors and carpets. I have Pacino trained to go outside and on the pee pee pads and he never has accidents in the house!

Good luck to you.

Marie & Pacino


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2006)

> My Nikko is approx 8 y/o and originally, the vet said that, since he has no history of problems, is kept away from other dogs, and never mounts, that neutering isn't considered something that's really necessary.
> 
> However, I'm his 4th (and final) home and he was never trained in the others (they believed that it was easier to clean a puddle/pile than to remember to walk him regularly). While I've been able to teach him to sit, shake, lie down, roll over, and ask when he wants a bone, I can't housebreak him for the life of me!
> 
> ...


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

well it wont be unecessary surgical stress...if anything it will prevent him from prostate enlargement which will happen no matter when you neuter...and neutering will reverse the enlargement and stop it....enlarged prostate leads to constipation and other troubles


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

I've always had my dogs neutered or spayed as early as possible to avoid health related problems & unwanted problems like marking,humping & heat cycles & unwanted liters in females.I've always been told that marking & potty training are two seperate things.Marking & humping is a hormone driven habit that can be very hard to stop even if the dog is potty trained.My son had his 7 yr old Pom neutered in an attempt to stop the humping,marking & aggressive behavior.It has helped with the marking & humping although it's been a slow process.His overall aggressive personality did not change.It's my experience that neutering does not change the personatity.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> I've always had my dogs neutered or spayed as early as possible to avoid health related problems & unwanted problems like marking,humping & heat cycles & unwanted liters in females.I've always been told that marking & potty training are two seperate things.Marking & humping is a hormone driven habit that can be very hard to stop even if the dog is potty trained.My son had his 7 yr old Pom neutered in an attempt to stop the humping,marking & aggressive behavior.It has helped with the marking & humping although it's been a slow process.His overall aggressive personality did not change.It's my experience that neutering does not change the personatity.[/B]


I agree, marking and potty training are 2 seperate things. 

Neutering may not change the dog's personality, but I know it does reduce aggression and moodiness in some. In some dogs it also stops the marking and humping. I guess it just depends on the dog.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

At 8 years old I doubt that neutering will change his personality much. There are however alot of GOOD reasons for neutering him now. As Jamie pointed out there are important health concerns facing an uneutered dog. There is also the risk of unintentional breeding should he somehow find a female in heat. I'm sure your vet can give you a more complete assessment of the risks and benefits but I think it is the responsible thing to do, as long as the Vet feels he is healthy enough. Unfortunately you may not notice much improvement in the marking behavior, maybe you could try belly bands.


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## Bailey Luda (Feb 14, 2006)

Bailey was just neutered recently for all the preventative health reasons. It is much more tramatic for the owners and the puppy for sure. I say if your on the fence about it, research the argument for or against it, here are some reputable information sites:

ASPCA
The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA)
The Humane Society

... just to name a few







Good luck with your decision!


Funny (ok...not so funny at the time) I had gotten in a HUGE debate/argument with my mother-in-law over this topic. She has had dogs her entire life and never neutered them because she said it was unnecessary medical risk and she wouldn't even hear my reasons for preventative health concerns... it's just something she's never done and never took the time to actually research why all the vets and animal expert's recommendations for neutering/spaying... she knew better than me cause this was only my 3rd puppy in my life, yada, yada, yada... long story short... we have had to "lie" about Bailey's neutering by not mentioning it because she was demanding that we not "hurt" her grand-dog by neutering him. A simple discussion turned into a blown up argument which made me VERY fearful of having children and God for bid, disagree with her on certain parenting skills!!!!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

He should be neutered for his health. The prostate can enlarge as they get older and develop cysts and cancerous growths. Even a benign cyst can rupture into the abdomen, killing the dog. Testicular cancer is another risk. 

I doubt at his age that neutering will greatly reduce what is now a behavioral problem, though it will probably help some. 

This is a dog who cannot be left in the house unsupervised for a second! He needs to be directly in your view or crated. While I don't generally like band-aid training, I think a belly band may be a life saver for him. I would look into getting one. Consistency and REWARDS for urinating in the right place will go a long way. I also like to give dogs an appropriate place outdoors where you can reward them for marking. The other thing that can help is long walks where the dog really can empty out (since a marker isn't going to empty his bladder urinating just once).


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

Neuter! He'll be happier for it, and so will you. And, he'll be healthier.


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## Fenway's Momma (Dec 6, 2005)

I just wanted to add that my aunt and uncle's yorkie ran away two months ago and he wasn't neutered. He prob. smelled a female in heat and lost his way home. Very sad.


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## Tanner's Mom (May 27, 2005)

We just had our Italian Greyhound neutered at 2 1/2 y/o and I couldn't be happier. He has stopped marking everywhere in the house. I just gave away a couch and chair because of that! Oh well, it was time for new furniture anyway. Now my problem is keeping Tanner from marking inside. (He has not been neutered because of his liver problems.) Thank goodness he's not big enuf to whiz on the couch!


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

I think there is much more pro than con regarding neutering your dog. I don't think that vets would purposely lie about the benefits.
Of course you will be able to find a random site that will negate the beneficial effects of neutering. There’s bound to be one, after all....


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

> i heard if you neuter or spay humans they need to take pills all heir life and have all kinds of physical problems, how come it should be ok with a dog?[/B]


I can answer you this question. I had a histerectomy at age 35 but kept my ovaries. I did not need to take pills. And as far as I know if a man has a vasectomy he does not need pills either. As far as the physical problems, I don't know where you got that information from. I have not had any physical problems on the contrary it was the best thing I did. No more periods, no more birthcontrol pills.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum
Most common neoplasm in this group of intact male dogs was a testicular cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum
Benefits of neutering

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum
Testicular cancer in dogs - its common in intact males

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum
Dogs with retained testicles are even MORE likely to have testicular cancers

My own personal experience in the veterinary field has shown me that I'm more afraid of prostate problems in middle-aged and older intact males than cancer. I've seen dogs who could not urinate because of benign prostatic hypertrophy and had to have emergency surgery. I've seen dogs die because of benign cysts on their enlarged prostates rupturing into their abdomen. I've seen so many dogs just terribly uncomfortable, having bloody urine, etc. from prostate enlargement. And YES, neutering is a much harder procedure on an older dog. Puppies bounce back so quickly. 

The only breed where bone cancer (osteosarcoma to be precise) and early spay/neuter have been correlated is the Rottweiler which as a breed is at much greater risk to develop this type of cancer. In addition, keep in mind this is a correlation, NOT A CAUSE of osteosarcoma. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

I have never seen a study where weight gain was directly caused by spay/neuter. If you feed your dog too much and they don't get enough exercise, they get fat. Young intact males actually tend to have trouble maintaining adequate weight at times, especially when around bitches in season. 

Spaying and neutering didn't just come about for no reason. Pet over population alone is not the only reason vets began doing these procedures routinely. For bitches, especially, it avoids deadly infections and deadly cancers. It does make males better pets. Without those hormones, most neutered males, if neutered BEFORE sexual maturity, don't mark, tend not to wander as much, and are less territorial. Once a dog starts a behavior like marking, it is not purely hormonal, it is also behavioral - something they have learned and become habituated to doing. Therefore, while neutering can remove the hormonal component, the behavioral component may still be very strong. 

You have to weight the pros and cons for yourself, but, unless I were breeding my male, I could not see leaving him intact. Even if I chose to wait until physical maturity (around 12 months for a Maltese), I would still have the dog neutered young.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

actually in one of your links there seems to be at least some relation......"The side effects of orchiectomy included increased bodyweight, increased appetite and decreased activity in less than 50 per cent of the dogs, and there was a significant relationship between increased appetite and bodyweight"


> It sounds that way but... when a dog changes to adult hood from puppy hood it can change also his eating habits and exercise habits and that has nothing to do with spay or neuter. You have overweight dogs who are not fixed. My parents had a dachshund female. She was as fat as a little piglet and was not spayed. On the other hand we had a miniature long haired female dachshund that we had spayed at 10 years of age and she never was overweight (died at the old age of 17). We finally had her spayed because each year she came down with a false pregnancy and lots of milk. At the time we did not know that there was such a thing as spaying. My daughter's shi tzu was spayed and was not overweight. Alex is neutered and is not overweight. As a matter of fact, I cannot think at the moment of any dog on this forum that is overweight.
> 
> At the end, it's your decision. You have to weigh the cons and pros. There is risk on both sides. Just keep in mind that an unneutered male will run away if he smells a female in heat and she has not even to be leaving just next door. And if she is, I don't think your neighboors will appreciate your dog coming to their door and pissing on it. Believe me I have first hand knowledge about this. And that male did not live just next door.


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I believe in spaying and nutering.
If I had a boy he would definitely be nuetered.

~Carole and the Fur-Girls~


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

> for all that think neutering is sooooooo great for their health this might be an interesting other view: http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
> 
> 
> i heard if you neuter or spay humans they need to take pills all heir life and have all kinds of physical problems, how come it should be ok with a dog?[/B]


 I have read this article before, and read it again. It is not saying not to neuter, it is recommending that you wait til 6 mos or possibly longer. I believe that it is common practice to wait til they are a minimum of 6 months old. 

Spay or neuter humans???? Not sure what you are talking about. Women who have total hysterectomies are occasssionally put on estrogen replacement but more and more studies are showing that to be an unnecessary and potentially hazardous practice. 

Neutering is the responsible choice to make.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

A hysterectomy is not done on a female human for birth control reasons. 
A female human can have her tubes tied for birth control and won't need any hormones since the ovaries will still be there.


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## izzysmom (Nov 6, 2005)

> i am not judging anybody for neutering or spaying their dog.
> i am myself not completly convinced yet what is the best to do but i tend a LOT more to the "dont neuter" side.
> 
> baily is 11 month and he doesnt mark. he doesnt hump my leg or his toys. he tried it with some dogs but i think that is more for dominance reasons then actually sexual.
> ...


thank you for providing that link - it's the first coherent argument i've seen against spay/neuter. whatever you decide, i am sure you will your dog's best interests at heart.


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> QUOTE





> i heard if you neuter or spay humans they need to take pills all heir life and have all kinds of physical problems, how come it should be ok with a dog?[/B]


I can answer you this question. I had a histerectomy at age 35 but kept my ovaries. I did not need to take pills. And as far as I know if a man has a vasectomy he does not need pills either. As far as the physical problems, I don't know where you got that information from. I have not had any physical problems on the contrary it was the best thing I did. No more periods, no more birthcontrol pills.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Like Jane, I have been "spayed" too, although I prefer to think of it as a hysterectomy. I had my surgery 17 yrs. ago and have yet to take pills for it. I also do not know what physical problems you would be referring to - it actually was an end to the problems. Bucky was neutered about 7 weeks ago and it has not changed his personality one bit nor caused him any problems.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> as i said my information about "spayed" humans comes from the tv and that is not always the most reliable, thats why i asked here, i still think it is to some point compareable. and the show was about women where everything got removed not just the normal procedure if you dont want children anymore.
> 
> anyway
> 
> if i would decide to get baily neutered it wont be before he is 18 month or maybe 2 years. i do see the good points about it and i think waiting till he is mature might be a good compromise.[/B]


I didn't want to argue here, and I know this is just beating a dead horse becuase you really seem to think that neutering your dog is going to cause it harm when it really spares your dog from many problems. (Like Jaimie THE VET said it saves your dog from getting an enlarged prostate and other problems.) And I do NOT think you should compare humans to animals in this way.

A full hystorectomy is where everything gets removed. My mother has this procedure done (and many other surgeries for cysts), she said the hystorectomy was the best thing. You see, Endometriosis, uterine and ovary cysts run in my family. She said that she was in pain since she was 16 and when she got the hysterectomy she was pain free and lovin it. 
I have Endometriosis. It started when I was 12. I was acutually told I would never be able to have children (I have 2!! But they were conceived shortly after the surgeries) I had been on many different medications, like Cataphlam that caused liver and kidney failure. I have had 2 surgeries to elievate the pain...and one surgery to remove a cyst on my overy....problem is...there is no cure for Endometriosis....I'm looking into getting a hysterectomy myself...and I'm 28.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=187690
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Carrie,
I totally agree with you....For reasons I would rather not say..









Andrea~


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> carrie,
> frankly i dont care if you think i shouldnt compare humans and dogs. both are mammals if you like it or not and to some point comparable. i find the differences and similarities interesting. and yes i do find it intersting in what way the effects of spay and neuter are different or similar in humans and dogs.
> 
> and btw, its called reading. i never said there arent good sites about neuter. you even quoted me saying that. like i already said in the post before, i might get him fixed after he is mature because it seems like a good compromise between the up and downsites.
> ...










Where have I *quoted* you saying anything? I don't recall ever saying anything about you stating there _not_ being good sites about neuter.








There have been many threads where there are 2 doctors (one being a pathologist and the other being a vet) stating that animals and humans shouldn't be compared as they are a completely different species. I'm sorry if I upset you. I was, as YOU said, *stating MY opinion* as I am allowed to have one as well.


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