# I have a deliema...



## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

Just got an e-mail from Shasta. She says Sophie is doing GREAT! She's extremely smart and such a sweet girl. She says she feels Sophie is doing so well, she feels Sophie could go home around 10 weeks instead of 12. Originally I would be picking her up 2 days before she turns 12 weeks. And I know that everyone has been saying a reputable breeder wouldn't let the babies go before 12 weeks, now I feel like I could have been fooled into a BYB 

Also when I asked about how she was potty training her she said was doing doggy door AND kennel training. What is kennel training? I assume that means to potty in the kennel, but animal instinct is to not potty where they sleep. So I'm a little worried.

Any thoughts from anyone? Am I worried over nothing and my girl just might really be ready at 10 weeks? (I would probably only do a week earlier than planned) Help!:/

-Ashley and Sophie (soon-to-be)


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

AshleyAndSophiePup said:


> Just got an e-mail from Shasta. She says Sophie is doing GREAT! She's extremely smart and such a sweet girl. She says she feels Sophie is doing so well, she feels Sophie could go home around 10 weeks instead of 12. Originally I would be picking her up 2 days before she turns 12 weeks. And I know that everyone has been saying a reputable breeder wouldn't let the babies go before 12 weeks, now I feel like I could have been fooled into a BYB
> 
> Also when I asked about how she was potty training her she said was doing doggy door AND kennel training. What is kennel training? I assume that means to potty in the kennel, but animal instinct is to not potty where they sleep. So I'm a little worried.
> 
> ...


Oh sweetheart, I know you are probably so in love with this darling baby arleady. Oh Gosh. I don't know what "kennel training" means, and doggy door? does that mean she let's your baby go out a doggy door for potty?

Please don't be hard on yourself. 

And I don't know who Shasta is? that's the breeder?

You are right, no breeder, that I know of would let their baby go at 10 weeks. 

If I even asked the question, to a breeder, I think it would cause them concern. 

How do you feel about it all. Is this a show breeder?

Oh hugs, to you.


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

allheart said:


> Oh sweetheart, I know you are probably so in love with this darling baby arleady. Oh Gosh. I don't know what "kennel training" means, and doggy door? does that mean she let's your baby go out a doggy door for potty?
> 
> Please don't be hard on yourself.
> 
> ...


http://www.deserthobbyranch.com/maltese_dogs.htm 
This is the breeders website. I did assume that she was a show breeder, yes. 
And yes, the breeders name is Shasta. I will love Sophie no matter what, and she does seem like she's getting the proper care and love. If anything jumps out at anyone, good or bad, could you point it out. Here I thought I did all the research so well.



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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

AshleyAndSophiePup said:


> Maltese Dogs
> This is the breeders website. I did assume that she was a show breeder, yes.
> And yes, the breeders name is Shasta. I will love Sophie no matter what, and she does seem like she's getting the proper care and love. If anything jumps out at anyone, good or bad, could you point it out. Here I thought I did all the research so well.
> 
> ...


God love you. PLEASE, it is so hard, I know to do all the research and you did. Please, I beg of you, not to beat yourself up, this all still may be more than okay.

Did she say who babie Sophie's parent's are? Are you going to pick the baby up at the breeders house? 

There are many small show breeders, whose names are not known, perhaps Shasta is one of them, I don't know.

I know you will love Sophie no matter what :wub:

I'm hoping other's pop on here, to give additinal insight. Do not worry. 

Who are Sophie's parent's did Shasta say?


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

allheart said:


> God love you. PLEASE, it is so hard, I know to do all the research and you did. Please, I beg of you, not to beat yourself up, this all still may be more than okay.
> 
> Did she say who babie Sophie's parent's are? Are you going to pick the baby up at the breeders house?
> 
> ...


Her parents are Itzy, and Bounce (Watch Mi Bounce) and I believe he's a show champion. Yes I believe it's the breeders home that I'll be picking her up at. I think that's where they do the Maltese and the horse breeding (obviously in separate areas). I do know the show and breed a breed of horses as well.


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## dragonsdawn (Jul 23, 2012)

When I hear kennel I think of getting the puppy used to be in kennel, or going into kennel on command. I think it also helps with the potty training when you have to leave her. She will learn not to potty when you leave her. She might also be learning that the kennel is her quiet place. I can't be sure but those are some of the thingsit could be.


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

Oh my . Well I don't really have any advice, but I know how you feel about worrying which is the better choice and doing so much research but still feeling lost :\ 
I looked at the website and it seems like she really does breed healthy puppies, but I'm no expert. I think the only thing I found is I remember reading somewhere (maybe in this forum or somewhere google) that a reputable breeder would not offer to ship their puppies? And on her site it says she does offer shipping, but I don't know if it's by plane or in person? There might be exceptions or my info might not be correct, but it's something I remember from somewhere. 
Hope someone else answers your question and gives you advice about what to do, and I hope everything goes well and she truly is a good breeder  I'm sure everything will though, don't worry too much, you will get help  there's so many wonderful Maltese mommies here. 


Sent from Cici🐶 & Nora👩
❤💋


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

Does the breeder live close to you? Have you been able to visit and take a look at where the puppies are being kept and such? 


Sent from Cici🐶 & Nora👩
❤💋


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

BellaNotte said:


> Does the breeder live close to you? Have you been able to visit and take a look at where the puppies are being kept and such?
> 
> 
> Sent from Cici🐶 & Nora👩
> ❤💋


I haven't gone to visit yet, but she has made it more than clear that her doors are open at any time to come check everything out. I have seen videos and it seems pretty nice. I know she prefers not to ship them, but will if someone is a little far to drive. She's about a 4 1/2 hour drive away from me. Still in the same state as I am, just on the complete other side of the state as her. Not TOO far of a drive for me. But I'm glad another person looks like the website is clean. I know one of the red flags is not posting pictures of the dogs they use to breed, and she has plenty of pictures of them. She has a Facebook page of the pups with TONS of pictures, but she hasn't really been on Facebook much lately. I'm feeling a little better about it. But I think I'm just gonna stick with 12 weeks. I feel like in the long run it would be better for Sophie and she did say there was no rush.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Dear Sweet Ashley, first, I know how excited you must be. 

In general, at least to me, it is not a red flag, that a breeder will ship a baby AS LONG AS they either accompany the puppy, or have a nanny service, that accomanpies the puppies.

It's not really a red flag, that a breeder's website, doesn't show all the puppies born, it makes me uneasy, if I don't see the parents and what adults they have and their pedigree. 

Ashely, please please know, I want the best for you, and of course the babies. I did see her FB page, and it shows a good bit of puppies being born.

I don't see where she mentions that she has shown any of her dogs.

Also, she does offer a 2 year heath garantee, but what does that include.

So, I guess my questions to her would be, "who are the babies parents", what is included in your heath guarantee, and have you have shown any of your dogs.

Also, some folks, may ask, if she does bile acid testing.

Ashley, again, please know, my heart is with you, and wants the best, she mentions several times on her web-site "she is not a puppy mill". A reputable breeder, wouldn't really feel the need to say that. No, she certainly may not be a puppy mill, she just may be a "home breeder". Or a show breeder, that breeds on a very small scale, whose name just isn't as familar. 

Gosh, I wish I could help you more, I truly do, there are small show breeders, that their names are just not known.

Why a show breeder is important? Well, show breeders have to make sure, their lines are clean as much as possible, meaning their health lines, then they have to breed to the standard of thre Maltese breed.

The only show breeder baby that I have ever been blessed with, after having Maltese for 19/20 years, was my little Ana. And you can truly tell the difference.

I will be very honest, Shasta's babies are adorable. Gosh, I hate to say this, but it would not be my comfort level. 

Unless you find out more information, as to who the babies parents are. Having them be AKC doesn't always mean a whole lot. 

Please know, my heart, and I share your dreams, and only want the best for you.

I hope you understand.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

If I was going to direct someone to look for red flags, I would say that not posting registered names and pedigrees is a red flag. 'Assuming' a breeder is a show breeder because they have akc puppies isn't always true. Breeding mixed breeds is also a red flag to me. I hope you are not paying show breeder prices for this girl! Lots of pics of dogs doesn't mean it's not a red flag in trying to differentiate between a byb and a reputable show breeder but what I'd like to see is not just 'causal' pictures but show pictures too. 

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to answer. I do not know this particular breeder so anything I have have mentioned is just general information in evaluating a breeder!


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

allheart said:


> Dear Sweet Ashley, first, I know how excited you must be.
> 
> In general, at least to me, it is not a red flag, that a breeder will ship a baby AS LONG AS they either accompany the puppy, or have a nanny service, that accomanpies the puppies.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being completely honest with me. I do have the contract that spells out the health guarantee which covers things like liver issues though none of hers have liver issues. But excludes things like if the puppy ends up dying of parvo. So the fact that liver issues were covered is reassuring. It's ending up seeming to me like she's more of a "Backyard Breeder" but still seems to have things under control and taken care of properly and I believe Sophie will be my perfect princess that I dream she is. Even if she's not from a show line, it doesn't bother me. I feel like for 20 years old at the resources I had available at the time (prior to knowing about SM) I feel like I did a pretty good job. 


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

bellaratamaltese said:


> If I was going to direct someone to look for red flags, I would say that not posting registered names and pedigrees is a red flag. 'Assuming' a breeder is a show breeder because they have akc puppies isn't always true. Breeding mixed breeds is also a red flag to me. I hope you are not paying show breeder prices for this girl! Lots of pics of dogs doesn't mean it's not a red flag in trying to differentiate between a byb and a reputable show breeder but what I'd like to see is not just 'causal' pictures but show pictures too.
> 
> If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to answer. I do not know this particular breeder so anything I have have mentioned is just general information in evaluating a breeder!


Ashley, this is such a sweet offer and valuable advice, as Stacey is a show breeder.



AshleyAndSophiePup said:


> Thank you for being completely honest with me. I do have the contract that spells out the health guarantee which covers things like liver issues though none of hers have liver issues. But excludes things like if the puppy ends up dying of parvo. So the fact that liver issues were covered is reassuring. It's ending up seeming to me like she's more of a "Backyard Breeder" but still seems to have things under control and taken care of properly and I believe Sophie will be my perfect princess that I dream she is. Even if she's not from a show line, it doesn't bother me. I feel like for 20 years old at the resources I had available at the time (prior to knowing about SM) I feel like I did a pretty good job.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Bless your heart, I'm 49 and it took me that long to understand so much, but that was only because of this forum. So, yes, for 20 years old, my gosh, I'm not even sure I knew my first name at that age . 

Some well meaning "home breeders", I hate to call them byb. They need to learn, just like we do.

Then yes, you have you "back yard breeders" that do know better.

Stacey in the above post, who is a show breeder, gave a most genorous offer to PM her with questions, I would take advantage of that.

Ashley, please know, again, I only want what is best for you and your heart.

Much love,
Christine


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

Ashley, I know you must be disappointed to some degree about the breeder. From all the AMA breeder websites I've visited, I do see a clear difference compared to the breeder you're dealing with. Stacy is super knowledgable about what to look out for. Is it possible for that breeder to have healthy pups? Possibly. But the biggest issue that most of us have with backyard home breeders is related to the breeders' motives. Those who do not show their dogs are doing the Maltese breed a major disservice no matter how much they may love their dogs. If they are not showing their dog, they may lose that objectivity in their breeding program. Also, careful breeding takes more than passion and love-- it requires lots of knowledge regarding overall pedigrees, genetics, health, etc... Show breeders breed to improve each generation of Maltese-- not just to sell cute puppies. 

I really feel your situation and I know you want to do what's best with the resources you have. I say this out of the utmost caring- please carefully consider whom you get a pup from. I really believe we each have a big part in stopping BYB's. Having had a puppy before from a BYB, now I personally would only consider rescue/shelter pups and ethical show breeder pups.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Because you asked.....I looked at the website you posted out of curiosity...I don't think any show breeder would have pictures taken of their dogs with double top knots like that one pup had. I only say that because that what my first ever doubles looked like :HistericalSmiley:....and I still never got it right. :blush::blush:


And like Stacy said, if a dog were a champion, I'm sure they'd have his full AKC name spelled out with "CH" in front of it.

That doesn't mean you'll get a bad puppy, she may be perfect :thumbsup: :wub:.... but on the other hand, I don't believe what she said about never having a pup with health problems. Even the best show breeders cannot avoid the occassional defects. 

My Abbey come from a local breeder, she's a good girl and a pretty girl, and she's healthy too! Tinker came from a puppy mill as an adult, he's got many mental issues, but he's physically healthy as a horse. Archie came from a pet store (puppy mill), he's got bad ears and legs. Ava came from a show breeder and she's very healthy and very pretty! So it's a flip of the coin, and only time will let you know for sure what you're getting. :innocent:

I hope you don't think I'm being mean, don't mean to be at all. I bet your little puppy will be a gorgeous bundle of fluff, energy and love! :wub:


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Regardless, by now you must have paid a non refundable deposit if not the full amount. You now know, and can move forward  If I were in your shoes, i would still bring the puppy home-if that is even a question at this point. Now picking up her up at ten weeks vs 12, is up to you. If you are not comfortable picking her up at ten, tell the breeder, she sounds like a nice person who will understand, if you are, then just make sure the baby is fed three times a day, whether that is breaking meals into three or meals two times with a snack in the middle of the day.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

What was it that made you think she was a show breeder? Did she send you pedigrees in an email maybe? Reputable show breeders will have photos on their web page showing their champions and many will list their pedigree. She is not a member of the AMA but that does not always mean they are not showing.

I'm really sorry but I just get a gut feeling that this lady may indeed even be a puppy mill vs a byb. She's being dishonest on her web site that she has never had a puppy with health issues because that is just really pretty darn impossible. So that is a red flag to me right there. Even the best breeders are going to have on occasion an unhealthy puppy. As Marisa was saying, byb's are doing a major disservice to the breed and will not be able to have access to really great representatives of the breed to bring into their breeding program because a reputable show breeder will never sell to them with breeding rights. So if they managed somehow to get a champion, then they were dishonest with the breeder they purchased from and did not follow through with their commitment to start showing and be mentored by an experienced breeder. And dishonest again by not spaying/neutering but breeding that dog. So that means either they are dishonest, or they are breeding Maltese from unreputable sources such as puppy mills and other byb's. 

There are some really great threads pinned in the Breeder Section that helps to not only evaluate breeders, but also why you want to stick with a reputable show breeder. Here are 2 links that I think you really should read if you don't want to read them all. Personally I don't think you can have too much info before purchasing a puppy and making this type of a lifelong committment.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97845-maltese-breeders-how-find-evaulate.html

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/98865-breeders-health-guarantee.html

If it were me, I would get my deposit back and look for a show breeder that many people have had good experiences with. I've seen too many heartaches from people who got from byb's and puppymills. And I'm only telling you this to spare you any possible heartache that could be prevented. Nothing in life is guaranteed and like I said, even with the most reputable breeder you can have a puppy with a health issue. But it at least raises the odds you'll have a healthy puppy and you will have for sure a puppy that falls within the breed standard for conformation and temperament. As well as a life long resource for good solid info and advice. The byb's I've had contact with and info I've read on certain byb's websites are often incorrect info which just shows you they haven't even taken the time to really educate themselves about the breed.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I agree with Crystal. There is nothing on the webpage to indicate she is a show breeder. The Maltese she is breeding are definitely not show quality from the pictures she has posted.

She also says on her website that her females puppies are sold before they are born. No show breeder does that as they wait to see how the puppies mature before deciding whether to keep them for show or place them in a pet home.

She has lots of pictures posted on her Facebook page. Quite a few are pictures of her Maltese posed with soda cans. That is a huge red flag for me because that is a marketing ploy used by puppy mills and BYB's.

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs | Facebook

"Kennel and dog door trained" indicate to me that her Maltese are kept in kennel situations, not her home.

Only you can decide if you are comfortable going forward with this puppy, though.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

I have been in the situation you are in - more than once actually and I decided to walk away. Unless I am 100% happy with the breeder and the puppy I would say no.

I know you are excited but if it were me I'd let my deposit go and look for a puppy from a reputable show breeder.

There are a lot of red flags on that site!


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

I agree with Crystal and Marj. I would ask for my refund back and look for an AMA puppy (ask us about individual breeders--most of us have experience with at least one of them!) or rescue a dog. That is me--with all the dogs that are killed in the shelters, I couldn't possibly live with myself, knowing that I was contributing to the overpopulation of dogs bred for profit.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

There are lots of red flags in this site---for one--the breeding of cross between coton/maltese or maltese/bischon. For two: size---she constantly speaks of extra small size. There is no mention of showing just breeding. She states on her site that most of her dogs go at 10 weeks. I also agree that the statement made of "no health issues" to date--20 yrs.---is simply not possible. 
It looks as if you might have put down 20% deposit---I doubt you can reclaim that but it might be worth a try. You may have to swallow the loss and you may still come out ahead in terms of owning a pup w/health issues.
You are the only one who can decide what to do, but in your shoes I would honestly try to find a reputable breeder and wait until I KNEW what I was getting.


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## Patsy Heck (Jun 10, 2011)

As you can tell everyone here is going to give you their best advice. I want to just add a differant spin. If you have already bonded even if you've never held her you need to do what your heart says to do. You can learn from this experience for the future. If you look through many posts on this site you will see that many of us in the past have purchased from less than reputable breeders from comlete ignorance. Thre are no guarentees no matter where you get your baby. In a perfect world you would have found this site and made a better desicion. If you want to proceed please do so and take lessons learned. If you decide not to proceed thats o.k. too.


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## StevieB (Feb 2, 2012)

Ugh, you are certainly in a pickle and I feel for you. I know you're emotionally (and financially) invested at this point, and there's no doubt that your baby girl will be adorable and sweet. There's nothing on this breeders facebook page about showing so I'd say it's a sure bet she's not. But it doesn't look like she's a puppy mill either unless she's really really good at being deceptive (which I'm sure some of them are). I guess the thing that I hate for you is that it looks like you're paying about what you'd pay from a show breeder, maybe a bit less, with no idea of where the parents came from. She says there are champions in their lines but I find that hard to believe. But if you decide to go through with it and take her home, I don't think anyone here would blame you. As you can see, many others on this site got their dogs through breeders similar to this one, or much worse. I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation!! At the end of the day, I just hope you end up with the healthy sweet little pup you've dreamed about.


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

Patsy Heck said:


> If you have already bonded even if you've never held her you need to do what your heart says to do. You can learn from this experience for the future. If you look through many posts on this site you will see that many of us in the past have purchased from less than reputable breeders from comlete ignorance. Thre are no guarentees no matter where you get your baby. In a perfect world you would have found this site and made a better desicion. If you want to proceed please do so and take lessons learned. If you decide not to proceed thats o.k. too.


The difference is that Ashley does know in her heart that this is a BYB, as opposed to someone making an honest mistake. If you go ahead with the purchase, *you are contributing to the dogs in shelters, even if it's just one dog*! I'm very adamant about this. Come to L.A. and see the shelters overflowing with Maltese, poodles, Bichons, and mixes of these. There is currently a 3 month old Bichon male in the local shelter!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Just a quick thought about bonding already with a puppy you have only seen pictures of. I know that emotionally you start to think of her as your baby. But it's much worse when you physically have that puppy and then discover a genetic health issue. Will you really be able to return her to the breeder after 1 or 2 years? 

We all could potentially face a decision like this even with reputable show breeders. The nice thing about getting from a reputable show breeder is that their reputation is so important to them, they will often help to offset the medical cost of treatment or return the money you actually paid for the puppy so their reputation does not get tarnished. Just wanted to throw that out there while you're trying to decide.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Did you ask your breeder, or does the contract specifically state what would happen if something arises during the time stipulated? Does your breeder pay out, or ???? Did you ask her how many parings she has had w/this particular set of parents? That would be a key question for me.
I am concerned that this lady has multiple litters---she is obviously a business lady as she has horses and a clothing line on the internet. Not that I oppose women in business, but it would leave little time to show, so she must be breeding for profit.
You are in a precarious spot. I did notice her web site says that most of her dogs are re-homed at 10 wks. of age.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Just a quick thought about bonding already with a puppy you have only seen pictures of. I know that emotionally you start to think of her as your baby. But it's much worse when you physically have that puppy and then discover a genetic health issue. Will you really be able to return her to the breeder after 1 or 2 years?
> 
> We all could potentially face a decision like this even with reputable show breeders. The nice thing about getting from a reputable show breeder is that their reputation is so important to them, they will often help to offset the medical cost of treatment or return the money you actually paid for the puppy so their reputation does not get tarnished. Just wanted to throw that out there while you're trying to decide.


Excellent post, Crystal!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I just saw this on her Facebook page. Ugh. She is promising show quality even though she doesn't show herself? And she sells her puppies with full AKC registration, not a spay/neuter contract? "Champion lines" is another marketing term used by BYB's. Her prices are as much, if not more than puppies from show breeders ..... with both parents champions!

*Heather Johnson
*

* Hello, how much for full Akc, show quality?, and are there champion bloodlines in their pedigree? Thanks *

Like · · May 9 at 12:23am

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs likes this.

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs Sire has champion lines, teeth and back nice! Great coat! Should make show quality.. $1200 akc full registry
May 9 at 10:28am via mobile · Like

Heather Johnson Thanks. I left you a message on your phone. Is that price for a male, female, or both? Bounce is the sire? ( I was watching YouTube and he is beautiful.). I am looking to bring home a puppy in August.  will you have a litter available then? 
May 9 at 11:30pm via mobile · Like

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs Yes got your message. Was going to call you tomorrow...lol..That price is for a male now...Typically our Males sell for $1600 with full AKC papers..Price is for a male. Females are around $500 more. It's just timing for us right now...Now time to advertise them. We should have a female going into heat here soon...So Aug should work. It will be Jasmine or Itzy going into heat.
May 9 at 11:41pm · Like

Heather Johnson Where do I find the pictures of the 2 pups you have currently available?
May 10 at 12:38am via mobile · Like

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs I will post one here
May 10 at 10:35am via mobile · Like

Heather Johnson I believe the anticipation is killing me 
May 11 at 9:56am via mobile · Like

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs Grr I tried and didnt work.. Let me try again sorry
May 11 at 10:42am via mobile · Like

Heather Johnson If its easier, feel free to text the pics directly to me at: 406.208.4180 
May 11 at 10:15pm via mobile · Like


Write a comment...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

No way would I give this breeder one dime of my money! She offers stud service with a Yorkie? :w00t:

*Recent Posts By Others*

*Mary Hansz Lunsford
*

* Have you ever considered breeding for a litter of Morkies?*

Like · · February 16 at 2:48am

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs likes this.

Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs No.... I LOVE the pure bred Maltese...The mix we had of Maltese and Coton was a accident. The Coton will be going to my neice after this puppy is weaned. I do offer a stud service on my Male Maltese if you have a Yorkie.
February 16 at 9:26am · Like


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

I have decided to go ahead with Sophie. I know in my heart that even though she may not be a show breeder, she's taking really good care of my baby, has been fantastic with me. She is breeding healthy dogs, and even if Sophie isn't "show quality" she's perfect to me and I don't plan on showing or breeding. So she will be spayed. Thank you everyone for your input. I really do feel like its going to be fine. And she is staying there until 12 weeks. Thank you again.


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

AshleyAndSophiePup said:


> I have decided to go ahead with Sophie. I know in my heart that even though she may not be a show breeder, she's taking really good care of my baby, has been fantastic with me. She is breeding healthy dogs, and even if Sophie isn't "show quality" she's perfect to me and I don't plan on showing or breeding. So she will be spayed. Thank you everyone for your input. I really do feel like its going to be fine. And she is staying there until 12 weeks. Thank you again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Totally understand Ashley  and I think it's a good idea that she stays till 12 weeks, when you take them home too early all you would do is worry!


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

shellbeme said:


> Totally understand Ashley  and I think it's a good idea that she stays till 12 weeks, when you take them home too early all you would do is worry!


Thank you I hope everyone else is as understanding. I just feel like this is the right situation for me.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

The only way to stop people like this is to NOT give them your money. One look at her web-site and it was obvious to me that her object is to make money off of carelessly breeding dogs. 

Note that she says her home is open to visitors at any time. That is so that she can qualify to be exempt from licensing by the USDA. But, because of so many BYB selling over the internet, the USDA is attempting to pass an amendment to the rules; which would be a disaster for responsible show breeders. 

She is doing harm to our beloved breed. She is doing harm to dogs in general by mixing breeds, breeding too many puppies, breeding unproven dogs and by allowing full registration so that others can carry on this reckless practice. She isn't doing you a good turn either by charging you what a dog with a full line of champions in it's pedigree would cost.

Oops, sorry...you responded while I was typing.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Sylie said:


> The only way to stop people like this is to NOT give them your money. One look at her web-site and it was obvious to me that her object is to make money off of carelessly breeding dogs.
> 
> Note that she says her home is open to visitors at any time. That is so that she can qualify to be exempt from licensing by the USDA. But, because of so many BYB selling over the internet, the USDA is attempting to pass an amendment to the rules; which would be a disaster for responsible show breeders.
> 
> She is doing harm to our beloved breed. She is doing harm to dogs in general by mixing breeds, breeding too many puppies, breeding unproven dogs and by allowing full registration so that others can carry on this reckless practice. She isn't doing you a good turn either by charging you what a dog with a full line of champions in it's pedigree would cost.


I know it may seen harsh, Ashley but I completely agree with this. 

This breeder is NOT a reputable one - she is far from it 

I understand that you want this puppy - I really do understand but you have the chance to not contribute to a back yard breeder.
Even if the puppy is healthy not all of them will be and the more that are bought the more they are encouraged to keep breeding


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

:beating a dead hors:beating a dead hors I don't want to labor this point if your mind is made up, but I wonder why she would post this link on her FB page--to another BYB?


Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs shared a link.
30 March 2010
Puppies for Sale - Dogs for Sale | Dog Breeders
AKC Maltese Female
puppiesndogs.com
Toy Maltese dogs raised in a family home with lots of love. Our puppies are part of the family, learing how to use the doggie door, socialize with other other animals (ferret, cats,


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

I'm sorry, but at the very "best" this is a BYB, and quite possibly churning out puppies often enough to be considered a puppy mill. I would honestly walk away (deposit in hand or not). I had a bad experience with London's breeder lying to me about her sire and she has had a few issues (nothing life threatening, but issues nonetheless)...I'm still very bitter about London's breeder, and it has been 5 years.

"Champion lines" does not mean the sire is a Champion. It means somewhere, even 10 generations back, there was a Champion. It means nothing.

If a breeder does not actively show her dogs in AKC conformation, they are not a reputable breeder.

If I remember correctly you are located on the west side? I am quite surprised you would find a puppy in Kennewick rather than somewhere on the west side. There are a couple of reputable breeders in western WA that produce gorgeous Maltese. (I live in Spokane and ended up getting Preston from a different state because of lack of quality breeders in WA...I think there are only 1 or 2.)


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Ashley is very attached and loves her puppy and wants to get it, I understand.

Please let this be a learning experience for everyone. This is a BYB or Puppy-Mill and as we know a "Breed for Greed" person.
A really good way to find a reputable breeder is attend a show, get a catalog and call the Show people listed. Call the Kennel Club in your area and ask for Maltese Show people.
We have BYB's on SM and why anyone even answers their posts is a slam to Rescue, Fosters and the wonderful Show Breeders we have on here.
Good luck Ashley and love your new baby.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

AshleyAndSophiePup said:


> I have decided to go ahead with Sophie. I know in my heart that even though she may not be a show breeder, she's taking really good care of my baby, has been fantastic with me. She is breeding healthy dogs, and even if Sophie isn't "show quality" she's perfect to me and I don't plan on showing or breeding. So she will be spayed. Thank you everyone for your input. I really do feel like its going to be fine. And she is staying there until 12 weeks. Thank you again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free



I know you've already made up your mind but I did want to point a few things out.

I am a HUGE believer in placing the right puppy with the right people and so I spend a lot of time evaluating temperament. One thing I have noticed is that YOU CAN NOT accurately access temperament before 8 weeks old. So buying an unborn or just born pup doesn't make much sense to me.

As everyone on this site can attest to - there is a wide variety of temperaments. Some of ours are mellow sweet hearts. Some are more active and needy and not liking to be separated from their owners. So placing the right temperament with the right situation is very important.

These are questions I ask potential puppy buyers

Do you work full time? Do you go to school? Do you live in an apartment or somewhere where excessive barking can be an issue? If the answer is YES , it is very important to get a puppy with the right temperament and anything before 8 weeks is just guess work. And temperaments can vary even in the same litter. So even if you get the prettiest, sweetest puppy from this lady that you can hope for, if the temperament is not conducive to your lifestyle, it will quickly become a stressfull nightmare. 

I am just trying to give you something else to consider. Show breeders put a lot of emphasis on a solid temperament because that is crucial for the show ring. Non- show breeders can say 'oh, they have wonderful temperaments' but then when you get the puppy home, it's a screeching nightmare and suddenly that becomes your fault and your problem when mentioned to the breeder. 

Again, I 'm just trying to give you something else to consider.


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

AshleyAndSophiePup said:


> I have decided to go ahead with Sophie. I know in my heart that even though she may not be a show breeder, she's taking really good care of my baby, has been fantastic with me. She is breeding healthy dogs, and even if Sophie isn't "show quality" she's perfect to me and I don't plan on showing or breeding. So she will be spayed. Thank you everyone for your input. I really do feel like its going to be fine. And she is staying there until 12 weeks. Thank you again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Just to let you know Ashley, you at 20 years old at least knew more than myself (mid 50's) about different breeders so don't beat yourself up about not seeing the red flags. When I got Pipper, I knew about puppy mills and pet stores but I was dumb and had never even heard of a BYB. I thought you only got a puppy from a reputable breeder if you planned on "showing" your dog. How dumb was that! I got Pipper from a very nice lady who I now know is a BYB. He doesn't meet the standard for maltese in size....he weighs 11 pounds but he does have the sweetest, friendliest, smartest most lovable personality in the world, so I got lucky there. If I was to ever get another dog (which I'm not) now I would know better, but it doesn't matter because I just love this little guy so much :wub:


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## gopotsgo (May 21, 2009)

Bottom line. Your decision means you have decided to be part of the problem which leads to the death of thousands of innocent dogs annually. Knowing what you know. I find that disappointing, to say the least.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

Oh Ashley, I decided to purchase Bella from a Pet Store, and now you have effectively chosen to do the same thing. My heart breaks for you, because as you grow, you will realize what an awful choice you are making. It is your choice, but I strongly encourage you to act more responsibly then I did. Before you pick up your baby, watch the videos and do your research on pet stores and BYB. Then, if your heart allows it, make your final decision. I didn't bother to do that and it haunts me daily. Please reconsider, it's within your power to make a difference. You can be the voice for those of us who were not so wise.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

Sylie said:


> The only way to stop people like this is to NOT give them your money. One look at her web-site and it was obvious to me that her object is to make money off of carelessly breeding dogs.
> 
> Note that she says her home is open to visitors at any time. That is so that she can qualify to be exempt from licensing by the USDA. But, because of so many BYB selling over the internet, the USDA is attempting to pass an amendment to the rules; which would be a disaster for responsible show breeders.
> 
> ...


agree 100% with this post.


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

Ashley, I agree with Gigi, Sylie, Bridget, and everyone else who is being straight with you. If you buy Sophie, you are knowingly contributing to the suffering of shelter dogs. Also, you have no idea what this puppy is like in person, nor do you have any idea about the "breeder." Puppy mills always come across as family/Christian operations on the internet. When you see them in person, it's almost always a very different story!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

zooeysmom said:


> Ashley, I agree with Gigi, Sylie, Bridget, and everyone else who is being straight with you. If you buy Sophie, you are knowingly contributing to the suffering of shelter dogs. Also, you have no idea what this puppy is like in person, nor do you have any idea about the "breeder." Puppy mills always come across as family/Christian operations on the internet. When you see them in person, it's almost always a very different story!


Well said, Elisabeth. :thumbsup:

Using God, family and pictures of puppies in teacups or posed next to soda cans are hallmarks of a greeder/puppy mill.

A reputable breeder also does not have to go out of her way to try to convince you she is not a puppy mill. 

*"This is a family hobby (Not a puppy mill) and all puppies receive the love and attention we so feel is needed. Puppies are all started on potty training from the day they can walk and treated apart of our family until they become apart of yours. Because this is NOT a puppy mill, we don't have any puppies with defects or health issues. So please don't ask me if I have a defected puppy to give at a discount! That happens only with inbreeding and usually only with puppy mills! It makes me sick that it happens, but people continue to get in a hurry to buy and don't check out the source of where their darling puppy came from!"

*http://www.deserthobbyranch.com/maltese_dogs.htm*
*


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## aksm4 (Nov 28, 2011)

All I have to say to Ashley is that you could buy your puppy at top notch breeder and buy it from backyard breeder NOBODY can guarantee a healthy puppy both mine were bought at show breeders and they are both not healthy dogs one has patellar luxation and the other is suffering with liver issues I guess what will be will be .... just my honest opinion and my experience .....


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

We should probably let this thread die but I'm still gunna post anyway...

She has made up her mind, let's move on.

I know many of you feel passionately about where puppies have to be purchased from, but it's so much easier to tell someone else what to do with their money. It's not your $300-1k that would be lost, it's hers. We all know that there is far more that goes into the cost of getting a dog but lets get real, money does matter, it does, and I'm sure the downpayment was either sizable, or she may have paid off the purchase price of a pup already. (And that honestly is none of our business) It's really easy to tell someone else to throw away their money isn't it?

Listen I know the reasoning behind what you're saying, but it's always easier when it's NOT YOU. Reality though, for someone who is already emotionally and financially attatched, is very much more difficult.

Someone also mentioned earlier that you can get a 'show breeder' puppy for the same price, the only quote for price I have seen from this breeder is around 1200 and I haven't seen any puppies from show breeders go for less than 2k. That's just a side note I thought I'd mention. And don't take this as a 'you should support backyard breeders because of money' blah blah because it's not

Bottom line is, she is ALREADY invested and would loose that money, not to mention the emotional investment. So if you disagree with her choice, let's just move on. This is a great forum, and I would like to see her stick around and get more HELPFUL advice, and see her share stories of her new pup when it comes home. The feedback in this thread, though not hositle, is going to cause akward feelings and make her feel unwelcome.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

To me the REALLY big difference is that a truly "top notch" breeder will stand behind her puppies---this is also spoken out of experience. My breeder had a first pairing of a set of parents & I got the puppy (show potential) w/limping issues (developed first a around 7 months of age). We were in love w/puppy & kept him--would not think of giving him up. My breeder gave me another little "show potential" girl to compensate us. That is a HUGE thing to me and speaks volumes about a breeder. 
No puppy comes w/a complete health guarantee, but a really good breeder stands behind her line. That is why I asked about the "health guarantee"---one has to look closely at what it says, and what it really means. It is only worth the reputation of your breeder---and to a *good breeder* that is everything. If this breeder says "she has no problems ever"---well, simply said-- I would run fast in the other direction. Any problems that may arise would not be her problems.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

shellbeme said:


> .
> .
> Someone also mentioned earlier that you can get a 'show breeder' puppy for the same price, the only quote for price I have seen from this breeder is around 1200 and I haven't seen any puppies from show breeders go for less than 2k. That's just a side note I thought I'd mention. And don't take this as a 'you should support backyard breeders because of money' blah blah because it's not
> .


From Desert Hobby's Facebook page:




Desert Hobby Maltese Dogs Yes got your message. Was going to call you tomorrow...lol..That price is for a male now...Typically our Males sell for $1600 with full AKC papers..Price is for a male. Females are around $500 more. It's just timing for us right now...Now time to advertise them. We should have a female going into heat here soon...So Aug should work. It will be Jasmine or Itzy going into heat.
May 9 at 11:41pm · Like
$2100 for a female puppy from this breeder is what I found to be show breeder prices with both or at least one champion parent. $1600 for a male is more than many show breeders charge for a male with two champion parents.


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## aksm4 (Nov 28, 2011)

sweet Sandi ,

From my experience with both show breeders im just very disapointed  and whether she would of given me another or not does not change the fact of everything i have been through and the expenses for both these babies ...... i went to show breeders because i wanted to avoid all this and not promote these other ppl but look at what happened to me , not one but both of my angels , i guess its understandable i feel the way i feel 

Anna oxoxxo


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Ladysmom said:


> From Desert Hobby's Facebook page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for pointing that out Marj  I now understand where it was coming from!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

shellbeme said:


> We should probably let this thread die but I'm still gunna post anyway...
> 
> She has made up her mind, let's move on.
> 
> ...


I, for one, find this to be a great discussion and* really pretty level headed for SMers! * especially in light of the topic!
Shelly, you make some good points about money, but when you think of all the money we raise, give & invest in shelter/rescue care, then it is, in the end, "somewhat" OUR money. Dogs are abandoned sometimes because of critical health issues & who often gets called in to pick up the tab? 
I think in regard to "show breeders" the person meant one could get a pet from a show breeder who might have some slight issue (such as w/the teeth, or size) that would make showing unadvisable---those would be offered in that price category, I believe, and always with a spay/neuter contract.
As long as the conversation continues w/out people getting personal in their criticisms I believe it to be constructive and helpful in terms of educating. I am truly a people person, but if someone doesn't come back because of a difference of opinion then so be it. I truly hope the OP comes back and that she stays w/SM---we need differences in how we think and the freedom to express those in a proper manner.:wub:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

aksm4 said:


> sweet Sandi ,
> 
> From my experience with both show breeders im just very disapointed  and whether she would of given me another or not does not change the fact of everything i have been through and the expenses for both these babies ...... i went to show breeders because i wanted to avoid all this and not promote these other ppl but look at what happened to me , not one but both of my angels , i guess its understandable i feel the way i feel
> 
> Anna oxoxxo


Anna, of course it is understandable that you are disappointed and feel sad that your dogs suffer. * I, and my breeder both* feel badly about Kitzi, but _I do not now & have never blamed her._ 
I would say that you probably had a misunderstanding about "show breeders." No show breeder will guarantee there are no issues (*that is one thing that concerns me about this present breeder). *
Any genetic issue is a "crap shoot" and it is unrealistic to think otherwise---just like it is w/human babies. But if a human gets a baby w/a genetic fault the parents don't usually blame themselves---they simply move on w/life and do the best they can. 
I would take my chances any day w/a good breeder over a BYB or puppy store. I still think the "chances" are better at getting a healthy dog from someone who bred that dog to maybe keep & show it themselves. It is sort of like buying a Swiss watch or a Timex watch---both keep time, and one might get a lemon, but *generally* the Swiss watch will out live the Timex & be more reliable.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

shellbeme said:


> We should probably let this thread die but I'm still gunna post anyway...
> 
> She has made up her mind, let's move on.
> 
> ...


In that case, let me chime in. When I started looking for a dog, I put down deposit on two puppies, lost it and then eventually spent 1.5k on Gustave (who comes from a great breeder). 

I didn't know anything and was about to get a $600 Maltese from a puppy mill. Thankfully I learned in time why that was bad and lost $400 there. 

Then I thought I found a good breeder and gave them a $600 deposit. After that they told me I could take the puppy home at 8wks. That's when I realized I was fooled again and let that deposit go as well. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not rich. I realize I lost $1000 and it was hard, but to me I was just making an investment now so I wasn't spending thousands on medical bills later. 

As to being attached to the puppy, tell me about it. I still haven't deleted pictures of both those pups from my phone. I look at them and am filled with love, but then I look at Gustave and feel like it is an expression of my love for him to not contribute to the bigger problem. 

I have been there, and I'm happy I stayed strong in those moments. It was a no brainer, really once I found out the truth. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

hoaloha said:


> Ashley, I know you must be disappointed to some degree about the breeder. From all the AMA breeder websites I've visited, I do see a clear difference compared to the breeder you're dealing with. Stacy is super knowledgable about what to look out for. Is it possible for that breeder to have healthy pups? Possibly. *But the biggest issue that most of us have with backyard home breeders is related to the breeders' motives. Those who do not show their dogs are doing the Maltese breed a major disservice no matter how much they may love their dogs. If they are not showing their dog, they may lose that objectivity in their breeding program. Also, careful breeding takes more than passion and love-- it requires lots of knowledge regarding overall pedigrees, genetics, health, etc... Show breeders breed to improve each generation of Maltese-- not just to sell cute puppies. *
> 
> I really feel your situation and I know you want to do what's best with the resources you have. I say this out of the utmost caring- please carefully consider whom you get a pup from. I really believe we each have a big part in stopping BYB's. Having had a puppy before from a BYB, now I personally would only consider rescue/shelter pups and ethical show breeder pups.


:goodpost:


bellaratamaltese said:


> I know you've already made up your mind but I did want to point a few things out.
> 
> I am a HUGE believer in placing the right puppy with the right people and so I spend a lot of time evaluating temperament. *One thing I have noticed is that YOU CAN NOT accurately access temperament before 8 weeks old. So buying an unborn or just born pup doesn't make much sense to me.*
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

There are many great replies in this thread. I know some are concerned for the OP, that she will not feel like she is being beaten up for making a bad decision or feel like she can not continue to share here. I also hope that the OP does not feel that way. But while we can celebrate her new puppy in another thread because every puppy is special, I think it is very important *not *to celebrate her breeder or her decision to go ahead and buy from this breeder. 

I do feel that this thread highlights the VERY important lessons on doing your research and making sure that we do not support these folks who are breeding Maltese (and in this case Maltese-mixes) for profit motives rather than the love of the breed. I think this is one of those threads that is why SM is so valuable for helping people to understand how to avoid causing heartbreak for both puppy buyers and more importantly heartbreak for the dogs themselves. 

I want to thank all of those people who respond here who have been very heartfelt in their desire to help not just this poster, but others who may also still not know how to choose an ethical breeder.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

:goodpost: Great post, Carina.

When replying to threads like these it is always important to look at the big picture. Ashley may choose to go forward with her purchase from this breeder, but hopefully someone in the future will read these thread and learn from her experience how important it is to research a breeder before putting down a deposit.


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

Gotta put in my 2 cents worth. I understand BOTH sides of this, why we shouldn't support non reputable breeders (now that I'm smarter) but I also see Ashley's side. She has already fallen in love with this little girl and she WILL go to a home somewhere, if not Ashley, then someone else, so SOMEONE will be supporting this lady who is selling the puppies. Back when I was dumb and didn't know any better, I got Pipper from a BYB. I have to say I just love him so much I'm glad I didn't know any better because if I would have, then I wouldn't have my sweet little guy now. What if someone else would have gotten him who didn't give him the wonderful life he has with us and didn't love him as much as we do. I would do anything for this little guy. I hope and pray he stays healthy forever but I know there is no guarantees in life no matter where you got your dog. IMO, if Ashley is in love with this little dog, then who are we to try to discourage her from following through with her dream. I hope everyone doesn't hate me for my opinion.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree Kathy and hope this will be a learning experience for all. Ashley will need our help if she takes Sophie and we will be there for her.
We must expose these BYB's, puppy mills and bad breeders before someone has a chance to fall in love with their puppy. We need to post more in the BYB topic here in hopes that someone looking will avoid these Breed for Greed people.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Pippersmom, I know you mean well but this kind of thinking really makes sure BYB keep their businesses running. 

We want to help these puppies, to rescue them. But what we end up doing is giving money to these breeders to keep producing more litters. If everyone stops thinking like this, there will be no one buying from these breeders, and they will have to stop their business. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

aksm4 said:


> sweet Sandi ,
> 
> From my experience with both show breeders im just very disapointed  and whether she would of given me another or not does not change the fact of everything i have been through and the expenses for both these babies ...... i went to show breeders because i wanted to avoid all this and not promote these other ppl but look at what happened to me , not one but both of my angels , i guess its understandable i feel the way i feel
> 
> Anna oxoxxo



It is understandable Anna. It really is. And I've had some pretty bad experiences and some not so great first hand knowledge about some show breeders who some people love here. And I've always said just because a breeder is in the show ring does not make them ethical. And many here say the list on the AMA website is simply a place to start and does not guarantee they are a 'great' breeder. I like the analogy Sandi gave about a Swiss watch and a Timex. It helps to put it in the correct perspective I believe. We may have some with bad experiences from show breeders but those experiences are far less then those from byb's and puppy mills.

I got my Zoe from a byb before I even knew the term. And I love her more then anything and would do anything for her. However she has been as much of a heartache to me as a joy. We have some behavioral issues with Zoe that are due to genetics. She was exhibiting signs of behavioral issues as a puppy. It breaks my heart that I can not take her with me places like I do the other 2. So for me, I worry way more about an unsound dog coming from a byb or puppymill more then conformation or even health issues. At the store I see way more people surrendering their dogs due to behavioral issues rather than health issues. And these behavioral issues are being seen as soon as they get them as puppies. Their vets are seeing it and telling them they need to get their dog to puppy socialization classes and really recommend going to a veterinary behaviorist. Sadly, most people don't go that route thinking they can 'correct' the puppy's behavioral issue on their own because they've grown up with dogs and haven't had these types of issues before. Then when the dog is full grown they realize they can't deal with the issues anymore.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

pippersmom said:


> Gotta put in my 2 cents worth. I understand BOTH sides of this, why we shouldn't support non reputable breeders (now that I'm smarter) but I also see Ashley's side. She has already fallen in love with this little girl and she WILL go to a home somewhere, if not Ashley, then someone else, so SOMEONE will be supporting this lady who is selling the puppies. Back when I was dumb and didn't know any better, I got Pipper from a BYB. I have to say I just love him so much I'm glad I didn't know any better because if I would have, then I wouldn't have my sweet little guy now. What if someone else would have gotten him who didn't give him the wonderful life he has with us and didn't love him as much as we do. I would do anything for this little guy. I hope and pray he stays healthy forever but I know there is no guarantees in life no matter where you got your dog. IMO, if Ashley is in love with this little dog, then who are we to try to discourage her from following through with her dream. I hope everyone doesn't hate me for my opinion.





eiksaa said:


> Pippersmom, I know you mean well but this kind of thinking really makes sure BYB keep their businesses running.
> 
> We want to help these puppies, to rescue them. But what we end up doing is giving money to these breeders to keep producing more litters. If everyone stops thinking like this, there will be no one buying from these breeders, and they will have to stop their business.
> 
> ...


I agree with Eikssa. It is the same faulty reasoning that justifies buying a puppy from a BYB because you can give it a good home that is also used to justify "rescuing" a puppy from a pet store.

If no one put another dime in the pockets of greeders and puppy mills, they would soon go out of business. As hard as it is to walk away from that "doggie in the window" or in today's world, that cute picture on the internet, it is the only way to become part of the solution instead of part of the problem.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

pippersmom said:


> Gotta put in my 2 cents worth. I understand BOTH sides of this, why we shouldn't support non reputable breeders (now that I'm smarter) but I also see Ashley's side. She has already fallen in love with this little girl and she WILL go to a home somewhere, if not Ashley, then someone else, so SOMEONE will be supporting this lady who is selling the puppies. Back when I was dumb and didn't know any better, I got Pipper from a BYB. I have to say I just love him so much I'm glad I didn't know any better because if I would have, then I wouldn't have my sweet little guy now. What if someone else would have gotten him who didn't give him the wonderful life he has with us and didn't love him as much as we do. I would do anything for this little guy. I hope and pray he stays healthy forever but I know there is no guarantees in life no matter where you got your dog. IMO, if Ashley is in love with this little dog, then who are we to try to discourage her from following through with her dream. I hope everyone doesn't hate me for my opinion.


No this thinking is not correct. And I totally understand why you may think this way. So many people do. But you have to go a step further. If we get the word out and educate people so they stop buying these cute puppies from byb's, pet stores and puppymills, then they will no longer have a business. I hear almost every single day how someone bought a puppy from a pet store or a puppy mill even though they knew better because they 'rescued' that puppy and it would have died without them. I know this sounds heartless but yes, maybe that puppy would. But how many more are going to die and suffer because of the overwhelming amount of well meaning and loving people 'rescuing' puppies from pet stores and puppy mills?

I will say it again...I truly get a gut feeling this lady is a puppy mill who is being very deceptive. The number of puppies she has as well as mixes is a pretty persuasive clue that she is a puppy mill.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

pippersmom said:


> Gotta put in my 2 cents worth. I understand BOTH sides of this, why we shouldn't support non reputable breeders (now that I'm smarter) but I also see Ashley's side. She has already fallen in love with this little girl and she WILL go to a home somewhere, if not Ashley, then someone else, so SOMEONE will be supporting this lady who is selling the puppies.


That's not true. ANYONE who buys from a BYB/mill is contributing to the problem and thinking like that(that someone else will just buy her) just isn't right. The more people that don't buy from them the better. 

Anyone who knows all about BYB's/Mills and still goes ahead and contributes to the thing that kills so many dogs a year has no excuse imo.


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

I've already made my choice. Fact is the breeder still knows what she's doing and Sophie is taken care of. Now, I understand your points of views, and I appreciate that you let me know how you feel about it. But now I'm feeling overwhelmed and slightly attacked. I'm sorry some of you feel this way, but I love Sophie more than I thought I would already. How would some of you feel if someone asked you to take one of your beloved fluffs from a home breeder or a BYB and trade it in for a "better version" because it's from a show breeder? Would you do it? No, probably not. But that's what some of you guys are asking me to do. And I don't find it fair. And I wouldn't trade her for any other fluff in the world. Thank you.

-Ashley and Sophie (soon-to-be)


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

These are the type of threads that go nowhere in a fast way. People have given you first hand, educated information and your are choosing to ignore which is your prerogative....but you did ask for opinions. If I were you I would just ask one of the mods to close the thread and be done with it unless you really want more opinions.


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

I would appreciate that. Would someone who has the power to please delete or close this tread. Thank you


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## dragonsdawn (Jul 23, 2012)

*hugs Ashley* i dont think they are trying to attack you but i do believe they feel strongly and are just voicing their opinions. Like i said before my Daughters pup wasnt from a show breeder in fact we never seen the parents but my sister ( who was helping by paying half) wouldnt let him go back to that awful place and the breeder wasnt very good to let a puppy go at 5 1/2 weeks. Yes i know we just encourged her to breed more but at the same time we look at it this way we resuced a puppy and even if he only lived a few months he would live in a house full of love. Now Bentley is just fine and will be a year old in a few days. The main thing is that you take all the Info you have learned and if/when you get another pup you use it. Also the most important fact is that you love and take care of your little angel, if you do that what anyone else thinks or says means nothing.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

AshleyAndSophiePup said:


> I've already made my choice. Fact is the breeder still knows what she's doing and Sophie is taken care of. Now, I understand your points of views, and I appreciate that you let me know how you feel about it. But now I'm feeling overwhelmed and slightly attacked. I'm sorry some of you feel this way, but I love Sophie more than I thought I would already. How would some of you feel if someone asked you to take one of your beloved fluffs from a home breeder or a BYB and trade it in for a "better version" because it's from a show breeder? Would you do it? No, probably not. But that's what some of you guys are asking me to do. And I don't find it fair. And I wouldn't trade her for any other fluff in the world. Thank you.
> 
> -Ashley and Sophie (soon-to-be)
> 
> ...


Often these internet puppy sellers do not give you the same puppy as the one in the picture. You are in love with a photograph and what a less than truthful person has told you about a puppy. 

You expressed your dilemma on the forum, you received advice and opinions that you asked for. 

I wish you the best fortune with your puppy and that you will be happy together for a very long time.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I think that what sometimes brings us conflict in life is that our heart & our head do not agree on which is the best journey to travel. JMHO


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

Orla said:


> That's not true. ANYONE who buys from a BYB/mill is contributing to the problem and thinking like that(that someone else will just buy her) just isn't right. The more people that don't buy from them the better.
> 
> Anyone who knows all about BYB's/Mills and still goes ahead and contributes to the thing that kills so many dogs a year has no excuse imo.


:goodpost:


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

I would request mods to not delete the thread. I think it might be a good reference for people in the future. 

Of course, it's ultimately your call. But closing might be better than deleting. 


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

eiksaa said:


> I would request mods to not delete the thread. I think it might be a good reference for people in the future.
> 
> Of course, it's ultimately your call. But closing might be better than deleting.
> 
> ...


My understanding of how this works is that the OP must write to a mod to request the thread be closed & then no one can reply anymore. I do not think it is normal protocol that threads are deleted.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Closing as requested.


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