# "Pedigree Dogs Exposed"



## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I was watching the Morning Show as I was getting ready for work, and they had a guest discussing the state of pedigree dogs. He made some very provacative points about the health of pedigree dogs. They especially profiled some problems with the King Charles Cavalier's. There will be a documentary aired this evening on BBC America titled "Pedigree Dogs Exposed". Just posting for informational purposes. Did anyone else happen to see the morning show this morning? Thoughts???


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## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

No, I did not see the program. I do not get BBC America either. I would love to see the program. Please watch and report to us. I only have HD Cable through Time Warner.


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## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

I'd love to see it too but I don't get BBC either. I know there's a lot of it on You Tube but would really like to see the show. 
Please do let us know your take on it.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

I'll add it to my DVR. I meant to yesterday after I saw Joy had posted it was going to be on. 

I think I get BBCA, but I'm not 100% certain.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I just checked online at timewarnercable.com and the channel line up shows BBC America... For those of you who are not sure, you may want to check their site.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I think most members know I'm upset about the results of the studies which have been done on genetics of purebred dogs. 

Here's the link to The Today Show segment:


MSNBC Link




BBCA is channel #135 on my Dish Network.


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## remy (Jul 9, 2009)

for new york city time warner lineup, BBCA is on channel 106 and the show will be aired at 8pm ET


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## makettle29 (Nov 12, 2005)

That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.

just wondering.


mary anna herk and theena :wub:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704


> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860707


> QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704





> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Please don't make me google. What is Chiari? I thought it was a perfume. <G> Oh, wait, that's spelled differently, I guess.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I've heard there are not enough new breeders coming into the breeds and being guided
by the reputable long term breeders.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I'll try to catch the program, but I'm not surprised that they are highlighting Cavaliers.

When first recognized by the AKC (in 1996 I believe), the Cavaliers had a hug problem with heart defects. Most Cavaliers did not live longer than 5-8 years which is a very short life span in a toy breed.

The reputable Cavalier breeders and their home club have made a diligent effort to correct this problem in the breed with extensive, selective breeding. Today I would say that the Cavalier has no more and no fewer health issues than most other toy breeds.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704


> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...




Post Edited. I mixed canine/dog inheritable diseases database info. in my original post.


The link for the University of Cambridge (UK) database isn't working for me right now: 


University of Cambridge link 


Here's a link to the other one:

Link to Canine Inherited Disorders Database



Joy


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

When I watched it when it first came out, I noticed that they were doing a lot of cut and paste. It seemed to me that they edited it to say what they wanted it to say.

JMO
Tina


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I started watching but just couldn't bear it. The music was soooooo dramatic and the whole thing was very dramatic. Like they were trying to wring every bit of pathos from it. It was just too sad to watch.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, I did watch last night. Interesting show. The point was that there are at least 500 genetic conditions that are now prevalent in pedigree dogs. (There are of course many many more than that in humans, as you know.) The concerning thing is that the prevalence has risen dramatically in the last 50 - 60 years. They really focused on the Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and a disease called syringomyelia in which the breeding for the desired head shape has produced dogs whose cranial vaults are actually too small for the brain, causing excruciating pain and horrible neurological symptoms. This shocking thing was that a dog with this condition was a best in breed at the largest Cav. Show in the U.K. They also profiled a Pekinese that was the Crufts BIS in 2003, that had surgery to remove some of his soft palate because he was so bracheocephalic that he had difficulty breathing. They also discussed the practice of culling Rodisian Ridgeback pups that are born with no ridge (although healthy in every way). And the desired trait of the ridge in this breed can cause a form of spina bifida. Yikes! Culling healthy puppies!!

The interesting thing was to see what these breeds looked like 60 or so years ago. Some such as the Basset Hound and the Bull Dogs looked quite different. The main point that they brought up aging and again was to discourage the close breeding such as mother/son or brother/sister breeding. Apparently some, such as the Swedish Kennel Club have adopted these standards and now bar such matings. The show also went on to say that dogs that carry or display traits of genetic problems should not be allowed to show. 

I am certainly no expert (or even a novice) in this area. It was certainly thought provoking. However, I must say, not one Maltese was in any part of this show.
I did watch with a different eye since my Lola has been diagnosed with GME. No mention of that disease at all.

Anyone else watch? Thoughts???


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860707


> QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704





> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (Coco @ Dec 10 2009, 03:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860713


> QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860707





> QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704





> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Please don't make me google. What is Chiari? I thought it was a perfume. <G> Oh, wait, that's spelled differently, I guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Here you go.....Canine Chiari


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Dec 11 2009, 11:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861008


> QUOTE (Coco @ Dec 10 2009, 03:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860713





> QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860707





> QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704





> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Please don't make me google. What is Chiari? I thought it was a perfume. <G> Oh, wait, that's spelled differently, I guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Here you go.....Canine Chiari 
[/B][/QUOTE]
I believe this was mentioned that this is one of the conditions that have resulted as a result of some breeders trying to achieve a certain type of head appearance.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Dec 11 2009, 01:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860979


> The concerning thing is that the prevalence has risen dramatically in the last 50 - 60 years. They really focused on the Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and a disease called syringomyelia in which the breeding for the desired head shape has produced dogs whose cranial vaults are actually too small for the brain, causing excruciating pain and horrible neurological symptoms.[/B]


I didn't watch the show so can't comment on it directly. While I do believe that health issues (in animals as well as humans ) are on the uprise, I have wondered for a number of years now how much of the uprise can be attributed to the fact that there are far superior diagnostic tools now than ever before? Could it be that some of the issues have been around for years and either didn't have a name or there wasn't a way to diagnose?

QUOTE


> The main point that they brought up aging and again was to discourage the close breeding such as mother/son or brother/sister breeding. Apparently some, such as the Swedish Kennel Club have adopted these standards and now bar such matings. The show also went on to say that dogs that carry or display traits of genetic problems should not be allowed to show.[/B]


For me personally I will leave it to those far more knowledgeable and experienced than me to do mother x son, father x daughter, or full sibling breedings. I don't know enough about the risk vs. the reward and need to learn a ton more about breeding and genetics before I would consider getting that close. As for showing a dog with genetic faults, if the faults are known I don't know why anyone would invest their time and money in showing the dog. Unfortunately, there are so many issues for which we don't have genetic markers and because so many issues don't appear until the dog is older that this makes for a very difficult situation. I think of glaucoma, a condition that generally does not present until the dog is of an age where it has already become a part of a breeding program. So it comes down to how open a breeder chooses to be with those people who now own the offspring of a breeder's affected dog and how the owners are going to respond/react should the breeder open up about the issue. I feel for those breeding dogs that are prone to conditions like Syringomyelia and Chiari Syndrome. To the best of my knowledge the only really reliable method of diagnosis is an MRI. At $2,000 or more, doing an MRI may be financially impossible for many people.

MaryH


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Dec 11 2009, 03:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861063


> For me personally I will leave it to those far more knowledgeable and experienced than me to do mother x son, father x daughter, or full sibling breedings. I don't know enough about the risk vs. the reward and need to learn a ton more about breeding and genetics before I would consider getting that close. As for showing a dog with genetic faults, if the faults are known I don't know why anyone would invest their time and money in showing the dog. Unfortunately, there are so many issues for which we don't have genetic markers and because so many issues don't appear until the dog is older that this makes for a very difficult situation. I think of glaucoma, a condition that generally does not present until the dog is of an age where it has already become a part of a breeding program. So it comes down to how open a breeder chooses to be with those people who now own the offspring of a breeder's affected dog and how the owners are going to respond/react should the breeder open up about the issue. I feel for those breeding dogs that are prone to conditions like Syringomyelia and Chiari Syndrome. To the best of my knowledge the only really reliable method of diagnosis is an MRI. At $2,000 or more, doing an MRI may be financially impossible for many people.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


There are screening clinics available for Chiari/SM MRIs. Your local CKCS club would be able to help find one. Often they are as inexpensive as $500/dog. Some vets in private practice also offer a discount if people bring 3+ dogs.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Don't take my previous post the wrong way. I am not saying Maltese should all be screened, just that less expensive screening is available to those breeders who need it.


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## angelgirl599 (Apr 8, 2009)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Dec 11 2009, 04:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861063


> I didn't watch the show so can't comment on it directly. While I do believe that health issues (in animals as well as humans ) are on the uprise, I have wondered for a number of years now how much of the uprise can be attributed to the fact that there are far superior diagnostic tools now than ever before? Could it be that some of the issues have been around for years and either didn't have a name or there wasn't a way to diagnose?[/B]


I wonder this too. Not just for dogs, but for people as well...


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I've often wondered whether AKC could make publicly available the lifespan and cause of death for all champions, as an additional but understandably imperfect tool for breeders and pet owners. I get that environmental factors are hard to isolate from genetics, but it seems that in addition to structure, head, movement, coat, etc that being a champion should also require good health and a reasonably long life for the breed. If a Maltese champion died at an early age due to a shunt, maybe the championship title could be taken away from him/her to provide better information for future breeding...there would be lots of grey zones, but no tool is perfect and health is a more important metric to me than for instance coat or movement...


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

QUOTE


> For me personally I will leave it to those far more knowledgeable and experienced than me to do mother x son, father x daughter, or full sibling breedings. I don't know enough about the risk vs. the reward and need to learn a ton more about breeding and genetics before I would consider getting that close[/B]


There is a medical reason why they banned that in people so why would it be different in dogs ?


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (angelgirl599 @ Dec 11 2009, 01:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861080


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Dec 11 2009, 04:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861063





> I didn't watch the show so can't comment on it directly. While I do believe that health issues (in animals as well as humans ) are on the uprise, I have wondered for a number of years now how much of the uprise can be attributed to the fact that there are far superior diagnostic tools now than ever before? Could it be that some of the issues have been around for years and either didn't have a name or there wasn't a way to diagnose?[/B]


I wonder this too. Not just for dogs, but for people as well...
[/B][/QUOTE]
It is true that there has been an increase in early diagnosis of some problems due to advancement or diagnostic proceduers. An inteeresting point to that fact is that the newer CT scanning machines are doing more and more "slices". They used to all be 4 slice and now we have 16 and 32 slice. We started marketing these enhanced CT scans a few years ago as "full body" scans to be done as preventative medicine. What ended up happening was, they find all kinds of little stuff. Now, patients are looking for treatment for things that are totally asymptomatic. And, they now have to live knowing that they have some little spot on a lung or in the brain etc.

I think the point that was made by this show was, that the changes they are seeing now are as a direct result of breeding practices to change the "looks" of certain dogs, such as shorter legs or more skin folds, flatter faces and certain head shapes that were not the standard 100 yrs ago.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (MalteseJane @ Dec 11 2009, 01:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861092


> QUOTE





> For me personally I will leave it to those far more knowledgeable and experienced than me to do mother x son, father x daughter, or full sibling breedings. I don't know enough about the risk vs. the reward and need to learn a ton more about breeding and genetics before I would consider getting that close[/B]


There is a medical reason why they banned that in people so why would it be different in dogs ?
[/B][/QUOTE]

That was what they were saying on this show. Same rules for people as dogs. Same genetic rule hold true.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (princessre @ Dec 11 2009, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861083


> I've often wondered whether AKC could make publicly available the lifespan and cause of death for all champions, as an additional but understandably imperfect tool for breeders and pet owners. I get that environmental factors are hard to isolate from genetics, but it seems that in addition to structure, head, movement, coat, etc that being a champion should also require good health and a reasonably long life for the breed. If a Maltese champion died at an early age due to a shunt, maybe the championship title could be taken away from him/her to provide better information for future breeding...there would be lots of grey zones, but no tool is perfect and health is a more important metric to me than for instance coat or movement...[/B]


I'd like to see something like this done. Maybe it could be only listing deaths from known genetically linked disease.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

I think the show had a few good points. I think the dogs that are known to have genetic diseases should not be eligible to win dog shows. They also talked of making it "illegal" to have inbreeding done - again, not necessarily a bad idea.

The biggest point that I saw was the extreme becoming 'standard'. I think when anything is bred to the extreme that is going to give you problems. They spoke of extremes like: skin folds, shorter legs, flatter faces, smaller head sizes etc.. And in specifically: Bulldogs, Pekes, German Shepards, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, & Basset Hounds. Extremes being bred is what worries me. When I think of Maltese the 2 extremes that come to mind that worry me are the extreme small faces/short muzzles and tiny sizes.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Dec 11 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861139


> I think the show had a few good points. I think the dogs that are known to have genetic diseases should not be eligible to win dog shows. They also talked of making it "illegal" to have inbreeding done - again, not necessarily a bad idea.
> 
> The biggest point that I saw was the extreme becoming 'standard'. I think when anything is bred to the extreme that is going to give you problems. They spoke of extremes like: skin folds, shorter legs, flatter faces, smaller head sizes etc.. And in specifically: Bulldogs, Pekes, German Shepards, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, & Basset Hounds. Extremes being bred is what worries me. When *I think of Maltese the 2 extremes that come to mind that worry me are the extreme small faces/short muzzles and tiny sizes.*[/B]


 :goodpost:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (Coco @ Dec 10 2009, 06:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860713


> QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860707





> QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704





> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Please don't make me google. What is Chiari? I thought it was a perfume. <G> Oh, wait, that's spelled differently, I guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I apologize for not responding to this sooner. Thank you, Pam, for providing a link. I am getting a copy of the report on Snowball from Dr. Dayrell- Hart. And, also, Snowball's regular vet is getting together with us, too, to discuss all the options and questions in-depth. So, I will be able to, hopefully, explain more of what Snowball's doctors are saying about the latest on Malt's and Chiari. Again, the only way to diagnosis Chiari, is with an MRI.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (princessre @ Dec 11 2009, 04:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861083


> I've often wondered whether AKC could make publicly available the lifespan and cause of death for all champions, as an additional but understandably imperfect tool for breeders and pet owners. I get that environmental factors are hard to isolate from genetics, but it seems that in addition to structure, head, movement, coat, etc that being a champion should also require good health and a reasonably long life for the breed. If a Maltese champion died at an early age due to a shunt, maybe the championship title could be taken away from him/her to provide better information for future breeding...there would be lots of grey zones, but no tool is perfect and health is a more important metric to me than for instance coat or movement...[/B]


Interesting concept; however, at this time AKC does not require that an owner notify them of a dog's death. I'm not sure how AKC could ever implement a program like you suggest in a way that would truly be meaningful. I say this because, for example, one has a litter of 4, keeps one for show and places the others as pets. The show dog finishes, goes on to breed, and lives a long healthy life. However, one of the puppies whose owner chose never to register it dies at 9 years old of unknown causes. Should the owner of an unregistered dog be forced to have a necropsy done to determine cause of death so that it can be enetered into some sort of AKC database? Should all breeders who lose dogs earlier than the norm for that breed (and who determines the norm?) be required to have a necrospy done to determine cause of death? Collecting data and reporting on only what has been shown and/or bred would never give an accurate picture of what is going on in a dog, its immediate family or its line. And until we have genetic markers, how do we determine if the show dog is even a carrier of a trait vs. its affected littermate? Collecting only bits and pieces of data is inconclusive and potentially very damaging.

MaryH


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 11 2009, 08:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861170


> QUOTE (Coco @ Dec 10 2009, 06:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860713





> QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860707





> QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704





> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Please don't make me google. What is Chiari? I thought it was a perfume. <G> Oh, wait, that's spelled differently, I guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I apologize for not responding to this sooner. Thank you, Pam, for providing a link. I am getting a copy of the report on Snowball from Dr. Dayrell- Hart. And, also, Snowball's regular vet is getting together with us, too, to discuss all the options and questions in-depth. So, I will be able to, hopefully, explain more of what Snowball's doctors are saying about the latest on Malt's and Chiari. Again, the only way to diagnosis Chiari, is with an MRI.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Snowball has this disease? I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that. ((((hugs)))))


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Dec 11 2009, 08:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861164


> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Dec 11 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861139





> I think the show had a few good points. I think the dogs that are known to have genetic diseases should not be eligible to win dog shows. They also talked of making it "illegal" to have inbreeding done - again, not necessarily a bad idea.
> 
> The biggest point that I saw was the extreme becoming 'standard'. I think when anything is bred to the extreme that is going to give you problems. They spoke of extremes like: skin folds, shorter legs, flatter faces, smaller head sizes etc.. And in specifically: Bulldogs, Pekes, German Shepards, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, & Basset Hounds. Extremes being bred is what worries me. When *I think of Maltese the 2 extremes that come to mind that worry me are the extreme small faces/short muzzles and tiny sizes.*[/B]


 :goodpost:
[/B][/QUOTE]


Very true. I always hear about the multiple health problems those tiny flat faced muzzled dogs have. I know maltese muzzles seemed to be breeding to enhance the highly desired "babydoll" face, but being practical here, it would seriously limit their breathing and cause many other health problems. I just hope that one day malts won't have their muzzles pinned to their foreheads like the pekes or shih tues. It was sciencetifically proven that humans are attracked to the big eyes, tiny faces in dogs, because it reminds us of real human babies.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Dec 11 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861139


> I think the show had a few good points. I think the dogs that are known to have genetic diseases should not be eligible to win dog shows. They also talked of making it "illegal" to have inbreeding done - again, not necessarily a bad idea.
> 
> The biggest point that I saw was the extreme becoming 'standard'. I think when anything is bred to the extreme that is going to give you problems. They spoke of extremes like: skin folds, shorter legs, flatter faces, smaller head sizes etc.. And in specifically: Bulldogs, Pekes, German Shepards, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, & Basset Hounds. Extremes being bred is what worries me. When I think of Maltese the 2 extremes that come to mind that worry me are the extreme small faces/short muzzles and tiny sizes.[/B]


I agree with you Mandy, that many of the issues seemed to arise from extreme breed standards. Luckily, the Maltese standard is quite moderate about most of the features, except things like coat color and pigment. This is another reason why its so important to find a reputable breeder who's breeding practices you trust.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (Coco @ Dec 11 2009, 10:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861233


> QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 11 2009, 08:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861170





> QUOTE (Coco @ Dec 10 2009, 06:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860713





> QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Dec 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860707





> QUOTE (makettle29 @ Dec 10 2009, 05:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860704





> That was sad to listen to. Does anyone know if this is a problem in the Maltese world? All I ever hear about on this site is about BYB and Puppymill practices.
> 
> just wondering.
> 
> ...


Dr. Dayrell-Hart , Snowball's neurologist, told us that more Maltese are being diagnosed with Chiari. Chiari used to be rare with Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Please don't make me google. What is Chiari? I thought it was a perfume. <G> Oh, wait, that's spelled differently, I guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I apologize for not responding to this sooner. Thank you, Pam, for providing a link. I am getting a copy of the report on Snowball from Dr. Dayrell- Hart. And, also, Snowball's regular vet is getting together with us, too, to discuss all the options and questions in-depth. So, I will be able to, hopefully, explain more of what Snowball's doctors are saying about the latest on Malt's and Chiari. Again, the only way to diagnosis Chiari, is with an MRI.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Snowball has this disease? I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that. ((((hugs)))))
[/B][/QUOTE]
No, I didn't mean to confuse anyone. There is a chance he has it. But, only the MRI can tell if he does. It's questionable. I don't think he does. There was something else discussed that he could have ... Hydrocephalus. But, I need to talk to his vet more and read the actual report. I should have the report later today or Monday. Then I can share more.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Dec 11 2009, 06:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861139


> I think the show had a few good points. I think the dogs that are known to have genetic diseases should not be eligible to win dog shows. They also talked of making it "illegal" to have inbreeding done - again, not necessarily a bad idea.
> 
> The biggest point that I saw was the extreme becoming 'standard'. I think when anything is bred to the extreme that is going to give you problems. They spoke of extremes like: skin folds, shorter legs, flatter faces, smaller head sizes etc.. And in specifically: Bulldogs, Pekes, German Shepards, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, & Basset Hounds. Extremes being bred is what worries me. When I think of Maltese the 2 extremes that come to mind that worry me are the extreme small faces/short muzzles and tiny sizes.[/B]


The Maltese standard calls for a "moderate" muzzle though. I do prefer a shorter muzzle and the "babydoll" type face..but I do not like an overly extreme short muzzle on a maltese. A maltese is not a shih tzu. I would say that most of the shorter muzzles I see are just on the shorter end of "moderate" and nothing too extreme so that is a good thing. And so far as small size, I would hope reputable breeder continue to try to achieve a maltese in the 4-7lb range.

QUOTE (tamizami @ Dec 11 2009, 09:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861253


> I agree with you Mandy, that many of the issues seemed to arise from extreme breed standards. Luckily, the Maltese standard is quite moderate about most of the features, except things like coat color and pigment. This is another reason why its so important to find a reputable breeder who's breeding practices you trust.[/B]


I've never thought of anything extreme about the Maltese standard...or the Yorkie standard..so I've never worried too much about the standard causing problemes in the breed. 

I'm not sure what to think about the overly extreme breeds. I kindof feel like if a bulldog can't reproduce or whelp naturally, that it shouldn't exist. I'm sure bulldog breeders would disagree with that statement though. And I feel like German Shepherds bred for comformation are crippled now which is sad.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I'm not too worried about breeding for extreme baby doll faces being a huge problem in the Maltese world. The reason being, has anyone here looked for a puppy with a baby doll face in the last year? I know many who have; and for whatever reason, it is quite rare to find these days. Reputable show breeders do not want to lose bites due to short muzzles-- that's the most oft cited reason. I don't know what puppy mills and BYB's are doing. And maybe it's because of fewer breedings due to the economy. Whatever the reason, if it's really hard to find an extreme baby doll head, then it can't be that big of a problem, no?


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Dec 12 2009, 06:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861325


> I'm not too worried about breeding for extreme baby doll faces being a huge problem in the Maltese world. The reason being, has anyone here looked for a puppy with a baby doll face in the last year? I know many who have; and for whatever reason, it is quite rare to find these days. Reputable show breeders do not want to lose bites due to short muzzles-- that's the most oft cited reason. I don't know what puppy mills and BYB's are doing. And maybe it's because of fewer breedings due to the economy. Whatever the reason, if it's really hard to find an extreme baby doll head, then it can't be that big of a problem, no?[/B]


Very true Sophia, they are breeding less and less extreme babydolls. I've seen very few this year with that type of head. Or at least in America they are, other countries, like Korea or Japan, are a different story.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Just wanted to add that what I'm learning from the genetics research is that ALL pedigree dog BREEDS in ALL countries are in trouble as far as inheritable disorders/diseases. (Note this doesn't mean EVERY dog) At the end of the Today Show, didn't Dr. Serpell, the professor at UPENN stated that US pedigree dogs are in trouble genetically because of inbreeding? (I didn't go back and listen to his exact wording.) I know I heard him say that he didn't think show breeders intended to cause genetic problems with inbreeding, it just happened. 

Another thing they didn't focus on in the Pedigree Dogs Exposed program was the behavior problems caused by the limited gene pool in pedigree dogs. That would be a whole different program.


As far as looking at champions, it won't be long before ANY dog can be screened via DNA testing to see what diseases will be passed on if bred. Researchers currently have the genetic tools to investigate the molecular genetic basis of disease resistance and susceptability in dogs, and they're doing just that right now.

Some veterinary teaching hospitals are collecting DNA samples from dogs admitted to their hospitals, and when diagnostic tests confirm a disease or diseases in a dog, they are doing genetic evaluations on that dog's DNA.

Another way veterinary teaching hospitals are tracking disease information by breed is this method: When a dog is discharged from the hospital, their diagnoses and procedures are assigned *Snomed* codes. If a researcher or veterinarian wants to look at records or gather statistics for specific diseases, all they have to do have someone in their information department enter the diagnosis code for the disease/breed they want to study. They can get computer generated printouts of statistical information about the disease. They can get a list of dogs with a specific disease or diseases and they can pull the records (whether electronic or paper) on these dogs to do further study.

I'm more familiar with the way research studies/information is gathered for HUMAN diseases as I have a Degree in Health Information Management and used to work at a teaching/research hospital. In humans, a different disease/procedure classification (ICD) system is used.

Here's a link about Snomed, the disease classification used by veterinary teaching hospitals:

Link to Info. about Snomed 





Joy


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Dec 11 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861252


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Dec 11 2009, 08:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861164





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Dec 11 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861139





> I think the show had a few good points. I think the dogs that are known to have genetic diseases should not be eligible to win dog shows. They also talked of making it "illegal" to have inbreeding done - again, not necessarily a bad idea.
> 
> The biggest point that I saw was the extreme becoming 'standard'. I think when anything is bred to the extreme that is going to give you problems. They spoke of extremes like: skin folds, shorter legs, flatter faces, smaller head sizes etc.. And in specifically: Bulldogs, Pekes, German Shepards, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, & Basset Hounds. Extremes being bred is what worries me. When *I think of Maltese the 2 extremes that come to mind that worry me are the extreme small faces/short muzzles and tiny sizes.*[/B]


 :goodpost:
[/B][/QUOTE]


Very true. I always hear about the multiple health problems those tiny flat faced muzzled dogs have. I know maltese muzzles seemed to be breeding to enhance the highly desired "babydoll" face, but being practical here, it would seriously limit their breathing and cause many other health problems. I just hope that one day malts won't have their muzzles pinned to their foreheads like the pekes or shih tues. It was sciencetifically proven that humans are attracked to the big eyes, tiny faces in dogs, because it reminds us of real human babies.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Breathing problems are not always the case in shorter muzzles. I've had several shorter muzzled maltese and none had breathing problems at all including Cosy. I've also had longer muzzled maltese who snored and reverse sneezed often. Sometimes breathing is labored in some dogs due to heavy bodies with bracheocephalic heads.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Snoring type problems are often due to the soft palate or stenotic nares. Elongated soft palates do become more common the more brachycephalic the dog's head is. 

The more domed the head, the more hydrocephalic the dog may be. 

If you ask a knowledgeable veterinary radiologist, they will tell you for a Maltese, there is an "acceptable" degree of hydrocephalus that is considered a normal variant. If you ask me, adding to what we already have puts the dog at risk for problems like seizures.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Dec 12 2009, 12:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861419


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Dec 11 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861252





> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Dec 11 2009, 08:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861164





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Dec 11 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861139





> I think the show had a few good points. I think the dogs that are known to have genetic diseases should not be eligible to win dog shows. They also talked of making it "illegal" to have inbreeding done - again, not necessarily a bad idea.
> 
> The biggest point that I saw was the extreme becoming 'standard'. I think when anything is bred to the extreme that is going to give you problems. They spoke of extremes like: skin folds, shorter legs, flatter faces, smaller head sizes etc.. And in specifically: Bulldogs, Pekes, German Shepards, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, & Basset Hounds. Extremes being bred is what worries me. When *I think of Maltese the 2 extremes that come to mind that worry me are the extreme small faces/short muzzles and tiny sizes.*[/B]


 :goodpost:
[/B][/QUOTE]


Very true. I always hear about the multiple health problems those tiny flat faced muzzled dogs have. I know maltese muzzles seemed to be breeding to enhance the highly desired "babydoll" face, but being practical here, it would seriously limit their breathing and cause many other health problems. I just hope that one day malts won't have their muzzles pinned to their foreheads like the pekes or pugs. It was sciencetifically proven that humans are attracked to the big eyes, tiny faces in dogs, because it reminds us of real human babies.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Breathing problems are not always the case in shorter muzzles. I've had several shorter muzzled maltese and none had breathing problems at all including Cosy. I've also had longer muzzled maltese who snored and reverse sneezed often. Sometimes breathing is labored in some dogs due to heavy bodies with bracheocephalic heads.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Cosy's muzzle is just a smaller standard size. She still at least has a nose, just a little one! :wub2: I'm talking about the pug, peke kind! URGH! lol I like babydoll heads too but not the extreme ones that have their noses pinned to their heads!


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

I am going to touch on several different points in this post.

*First* ....Please remember while discussing this particular program that it was supported by the AR groups. Horrible as it seems, they want you to be horrified and disgusted at the breeders.............the producers had an agenda and that while it describes puppy mills, bybs, it did NOT describe reputable breeders. The reaction on the Today Show is exactly what the Animal Rights groups are looking and hoping for. 

As for what the truly reputable breeders are doing for their prospective breeds..........First go to www.offa.org to see what sort of things GOOD BREEDERS test for. Then you might want to go to the Cavalier Health Clinic website. You might also want to check out the Boxer Club of America to see how hard they are working on health issues. As you will see they have not taken a head in the sand stand nor are they hiding the problems as the BBC program would have you to believe. You can also check out the awesome work being done by Optigen to make sure that BREEDERS who test need never produce PRA/prcd, as well as a few other diseases that Optigen has found the answer to. Then you can check out the different work / research being done at some of the universities.

There is the awesome work being done at University of Missouri, (Epilepsy, Polymicrogyria to name just two) who have found the answers to some diseases, and with the help of BREEDERS without whom no DNA research would be possible because they all need families of dogs not just individual dogs to find the gene(s) for whatever. BREEDERS are the ones who send them blood and family histories. Then there is the work being done at UC Davis on LCP, Dwarfism, Chronic Active Hepatitis. All have to have input, cooperation and DNA from BREEDERS because they need families of dogs to do their research. 

The NiH goes annually to Poodle Club of America to take samples from Black Standard Poodle Families, presumably they do the same for Giant Schnauzers and Black Labs for research on Squamous Cell Carcinoma, which also affects humans as do most (if not all) of the diseases that affect dogs. Research is also being done at Texas A & M on Atrial Septal Defect, again, BREEDERS supply blood and
family histories, send blood on sire, dam, sibs affected and not affected, they need families, not individual dogs.

All of this research will benefit humans when they find the answers, and without BREEDERS that research is not possible. 

*Second* ............Someone mentioned the baby-doll heads and the tiny sizes of Maltese. A very interesting fact is that before our current Maltese standard was changed in the early 60's (I believe) the standard stated 7 pounds and under but under 3 pounds was preferred (not sure that was the exact wording). And anyone who has seen pictures from the past have seen pictures of the Aennchen Antonelli (Aennchen's Maltese) Maltese who were renowned for their beautiful "baby-doll" heads and their very small size. So tinies and baby-doll heads are definitely not something new.

*Third* ......A very small percentage of the dog population currently being bred actually come from "show breeders". If I am remembering correctly, in the last article I read about this, the figure was about 7% but that number is getting smaller all the time. 

I hope this helps you all to see that there are two sides to every story and the side shown on the BBC program was the version that the animal rights people want you all to believe.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Dec 12 2009, 05:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861505


> I am going to touch on several different points in this post.
> 
> *First* ....Please remember while discussing this particular program that it was supported by the AR groups. Horrible as it seems, they want you to be horrified and disgusted at the breeders.............the producers had an agenda and that while it describes puppy mills, bybs, it did NOT describe reputable breeders. The reaction on the Today Show is exactly what the Animal Rights groups are looking and hoping for.
> 
> ...




Thank God for people interested in animal rights, and genetic diseases and disorders of pedigreed/purebred dogs. Thank God for people willing to expose what show breeding has done to increase the risk of genetic diseases in dogs. 

With current genetic tools, they no longer need pedigrees for genetic testing, and I was thinking this meant they no longer need multiple generations of dogs for their studies. I think I read three generations is ideal but not necessary. 

As I mentioned previously, some veterinary hospitals are taking DNA blood samples on every dog admitted and then doing DNA evaluations on the samples in which the dogs are confirmed via diagnostic tests to have a genetic illness.


Anyone who wants can pay $15 for a copy of the American Veterinary Medical Association's article titled "Development and use of DNA archives at veterinary teaching hospitals to investigate the genetic basis of disease in dogs".


As for the definition of a reputable breeder, that can be very subjective. My opinion has changed in the last six months.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

Here is another link that some of you might be interested in reading.

http://www.pedigreedogsexposed.net/


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Dec 12 2009, 07:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861547


> Here is another link that some of you might be interested in reading.
> 
> http://www.pedigreedogsexposed.net/[/B]



Before I read that article, who is the author???


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

After "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" was aired in the UK, the RSPCA did a scientific study using acclaimed experts in the fields of animal welfare science, genetics, epidemiology, and veterinary science. Here's a link to the report: 

Link to RSPCA's report


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I didn't see the show, and I don't know very much about the subject. 

My concern is that if show breeders are in such a small minority, like 7%, then what about the future? How will the breed standard be kept, and will Maltese puppies from good show breeders become too expensive for the average person?


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

I found another link to a blog titled "RSPCA The Truth" that may be informative concerning the RSPCA and other terrorist animal rights groups with links to the origonal articles included within the blog.

I promise this to be my last link tonight.......I am off to watch a good movie. :biggrin: 

Hope everyone has a nice evening.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Dec 12 2009, 08:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=861581


> I found another link to a blog titled "RSPCA The Truth" that may be informative concerning the RSPCA and other terrorist animal rights groups with links to the origonal articles included within the blog.
> 
> I promise this to be my last link tonight.......I am off to watch a good movie. :biggrin:
> 
> Hope everyone has a nice evening.[/B]





It's the study results (from all over the world) and the credibility of the authors that's so damning in the RSPCA's report.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

well I just thank God for reputable breeders that breed to standard and do their best to breed and produce health dogs. Until DNA genetic testing is available for each genetic health issue, the best breeders can do is utilize the testing they have available, study pedigrees, and do their best to breed healthy dogs and eliminate a problem if it pops up. 

I am not a fan of extremist animal rights groups at all. They do occasionally do some good, but any group too extreme is never a good thing. It's hard to find studies and articles that don't have any bias at all...I think there is almost always some bias depending on the group and author so you have to think for yourself and personally decide for yourself how you feel about issues. 

Anyway, like I said before...there are a few breeds that I do think have probably become a little too extreme but the majority have not..and fortunately there are good breeders that care for the health of their dogs


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## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

I know I'm a little late... the show was aired in my country a couple of months ago and I wasn't able to watch it... It was aired again yesterday and I was lucky enough to see it.... 

I must say I was very shocked with the show, those poor little dogs in pain made me cry... I've been trying to find it in the net all morning 'cause I wanna watch it again, here are the links I've found, they're working in case anyone of you wants to download the show


RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting 
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