# Dr Jean Dodds has agreed to do the study on vaccine dosage based on body mass!!



## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

After communicating with the AHVMA as to what it would take to get a study started to base vaccine dosage based on body mass, this is where we are. I brought Maggie in on the past couple of communications to ensure I was not misunderstanding or misrepresenting SM.

1. Dr. Jean Dodds is the one who came up with the proposed study and wrote the grant. She will be the one to do the study and is volunteering her time. They will not begin the research until all of the funds for the initial phase of the study have been generated, and will be relying solely on third-party donations. They hope that Spoiled Maltese can spearhead this fundraising. Dr. Nancy Scanlan is the one who takes care of the financial aspects and told us that they could feature our drive on their website. So there is a possibility of getting donations from outside of SM as well. This could also be thought of, in a way, of them helping to fund this study without actually taking money from their own reserve. I know many of us are also members of various FB groups that we can take this too as well. So by the AHVMA featuring the drive on their site, it would make it easier for others outside SM to donate.

2. The cost of the initial phase of the study (very small pilot with 20 dogs) is estimated at $5500. This first pilot study is pretty inexpensive and cost is being kept down also due the fact that veterinarians participating in this study will be volunteering their time. As for how long the first pilot study will take really depends on how many volunteer toy breed puppies they can find. If they have lots of toy breed puppies to vaccinate and test right away, the research would be done within 7 months. If it takes longer to find enough to complete the study, then longer.

3. The Foundation accepts donations at any time, but they only process research grants twice a year: January 15 and June 15. So if we raised the funds before January, the proposal would be evaluated later in January and the project would start somewhere around February/March. If we did a February fundraiser, the research would not start until after June 15.  If after a specified period of time the $5500 can’t be raised, any money that has been donated can be directed to another study that AHVMA finds acceptable. They are already partners with The Rabies Challenge, so this would be a logical alternative. Dr. Dodds is currently researching an accepted rabies titer now that the results are in from the 5 year study. All donations to the AHVMA are tax deductible. They are a non-profit 501(c)3 organization. 

4. If the $5500 is raised and the first phase of the study is successful, (Dr. Jean Dodds, believes it will be), there will be additional studies needed (and additional funding needed) before the results are significant enough to be presented to the veterinary community. The second phase would be approximately 100 dogs; no estimate on funding requirements was provided. 


Ever since I've been a member of SM (something like 9 years), there has been discussion on Spoiled Maltese about our concerns that our 3-10 lb + babies are getting the exact same dose of vaccine as a Great Dane and what it would take to change the vaccination practice for small dogs. This is what it would take. It's important to point out that this is an independent study not tied to any pharmaceutical company, which is why it needs to be funded by donations. We want unbiased research and findings. I think it is also important to note that if your fluff has had a true allergic reaction to a vaccine, whether their allergy is coming from the actual vaccine or adjuvant, by reducing the amount of the vaccine will not prevent them from having another allergic reaction. But will it lessen the severity of the reaction for those that are having their first vaccine? My biggest concern with the way vaccines are dosed now is that I believe this is why we are seeing so many auto immune related illnesses/diseases in our toy breeds.

I have had someone express some concern that the AHVMA Foundation wants someone else (Spoiled Maltese) to do the fundraising for them; most likely it's because we're not the researcher or even a member veterinarian- just a group of concerned pet owners. Usually a veterinarian approaches the AHVMA with a proposed study that is already well thought out as to how to conduct the study as well as being the one to actually do the study. When I asked the AHVMA if there was already a study being done on this and what it would take to get a study started, they contacted several of their members. Dr. Dodds stepped up and said she would be willing to do this and came up with the actual grant as well as how to do the study. And as previously stated, is volunteering her time. I have listened to several lectures by Dr. Dodds and have heard her state on several occasions that vaccines should be dosed based on body mass. But that veterinarians are bound by law to give the dose that is printed on the vial. And it's the pharmaceutical company that makes the vaccine that decides not only the dosage but up until the Rabies Challenge Fund, the frequency of boosters. I also want to be very clear that if the study is successful, the AHVMA hasn't addressed who will need to do the fundraising for the subsequent phases of the study. 

So now we come to you to get some feedback as well as dialogue as to any questions or concerns. Maggie can also jump in here and answer questions since she's also been in communication with the AHVMA on this. There has also been some discussion between the Mods on this as well. Lynn, Maggie and I are all in agreement that doing any type of fund raiser so soon after the Rescue Raffle and right before and during the holidays may not be a good idea. So we are wondering if starting something after the first of the year might be better. It was also suggested that in addition to dialogue on this thread, to also conduct a poll. So please feel free to discuss and ask questions and then vote so we know how to proceed.

Thanks everyone!!!


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Crystal, thank you for posting this!


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Crystal -- thanks for being proactive and helping with this. Wouldn't it be great is a study sponsored by SM led to toy dogs having a different vaccine protocol!!!


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

I think it is a great idea. I agree with the holidays, and following a very successful rescue raffle, waiting until Jan might make it easier to raise money.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Thank you Crystal for all that your doing! :aktion033::aktion033: :aktion033:


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Good job Crystal, sounds great :aktion033::aktion033:


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Which vaccines will be studied? 

Will a genetic component be investigated?

Does Dr. Dodds have veterinary Immunology training? What about Genetics?

Are any of the Microbiology and Immunology programs at Veterinary schools already researching this?

What research has been done to date (both medical and veterinary) for immunologists to conclude that one dose works for all body masses?

What would be a cost estimate for such a study - the entire amount?


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

vjw said:


> Which vaccines will be studied?
> 
> Will a genetic component be investigated?
> 
> ...


Actually Joy, your first question is a good one. I assumed it was for the core vaccines. But I will be happy to go back and check.

As for if Dr. Dodds has any immunology or genetic training, my mistake. I thought here on SM everyone knows who Dr. Dodds is due to the fact that her Rabies Challenge is discussed here often as well as the fact that due to her research is why the core vaccine protocol has changed from yearly to every 3 years per AAHA. Here is a link to Dr. Dodds' credentials:

W. Jean Dodds, DVM

And here is a copy of her resume:
W. JEAN DODDS, D.V.M.
Hemopet/Hemolife
11330 MARKON DRIVE,
GARDEN GROVE, CA 92841
Dr. Dodds received the D.V.M. degree with honors in 1964 from the Ontario Veterinary College, University of Toronto. In 1965 she accepted a position with the New York State Health Department in Albany and began comparative studies of animals with inherited and acquired bleeding diseases. Her position there began as a Research Scientist and culminated as Chief, Laboratory of Hematology, Wadsworth Center. In 1980 she also became Executive Director, New York State Council on Human Blood and Transfusion Services. This work continued full-time until 1986 when she moved to Southern California to establish Hemopet, the first nonprofit national blood bank program for animals.

From 1965-1986, she was a member of many national and international committees on hematology, animal models of human disease, veterinary medicine, and laboratory animal science. Dr. Dodds was a grantee of the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NIH) and has over 150 research publications. She was formerly President of the Scientist's Center for Animal Welfare; and Chairman of the Committee on Veterinary Medical Sciences and Vice-Chairman of the Institute of Laboratory
Animal Resources, National Academy of Sciences. In 1974 Dr. Dodds was selected as Outstanding Woman Veterinarian of the Year, AVMA Annual Meeting, Denver, Colorado; in 1977 received the Region I Award for Outstanding Service to the Veterinary Profession from the American Animal Hospital Association, Cherry Hill, New Jersey; in 1978 and 1990 received the Gaines Fido Award as Dogdom's Woman of the Year; and the Award of Merit in 1978 in Recognition of Special Contributions
to the Veterinary Profession from the American Animal Hospital Association, Salt Lake City, Utah. In 1984 she was awarded the Centennial Medal from the University of Pennsylvania School of
Veterinary Medicine. In 1987 she was elected a distinguished Practitioner of the National Academy of Practice in Veterinary Medicine. In 1994 she was given the Holistic Veterinarian of the Year Award from the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association. She was the Editor of Advances in
Veterinary Science and Comparative Medicine for Academic Press, and is an active member of numerous professional societies. She was recently a member of the National Research Council/BANR Committee on National Needs for Research in Veterinary Science, which released its report in July 2005.

Today, Dr. Dodds is actively expanding Hemopet's range of nonprofit services and educational activities. The animal blood bank program provides canine blood components, blood bank supplies, and related services throughout North America. Hemopet's retired Greyhound blood donors are adopted as pets through the Pet Life-Line arm of the project. On behalf of Hemopet, she consults in clinical pathology nationally and internationally, and regularly travels to teach animal health care
professionals, companion animal fanciers, and pet owners on hematology and blood banking, immunology, endocrinology, nutrition and holistic medicine.


As for your question: Are any of the Microbiology and Immunology programs at Veterinary schools already researching this? The answer is no. That was addressed in the first post in this thread and I apologize if that was not made clear. It was also brought up in the past threads started on this subject. But it's good to put it in this thread as well for those who may have missed previous threads.


Your question: What research has been done to date (both medical and veterinary) for immunologists to conclude that one dose works for all body masses? My understanding (which could be incorrect) is that the only studies done on this in the veterinary field are those by the pharmaceutical companies who own the vaccines. They are the ones who decide on dosage as well as frequency of boosters of their vaccine. Which I already stated in this thread has changed due to Dr. Dodds Rabies Challenge. So their findings were either not correct or were slanted to promote more sales of their product. As for in the medical field for humans, I have no idea. However I don't believe that is relevant in researching this particular subject so that we have the data needed to change vaccination protocol in animals if the study should determine that dosage should indeed be based on body mass.

And for your last question, What would be a cost estimate for such a study - the entire amount?  Answered in the first post of this thread. ​


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I would want to know precisely what vaccines will be involved first.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Yes, I had presumed the core also. Hopefully that will be confirmed. Parvo, distemper, Rabies.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I have given this a great deal of thought. My first thought was that a small study would be useless in fighting the drug companies. Then I realized that changing the dose would not lose money for the drug companies, and in fact, the first ones to do so would have a big edge. Owners of small dogs would demand the low dose brands, just as we are demanding the T-free brands.

Dr. Dodds has done an amazing job of heightening awareness on vaccines protocols. I never even knew that dogs could be titered for immunities, before MiMi's breeder informed me, because she followed Dr. Dodds.

I think we could spread the word on FB to lovers of other small breeds and come up with the initial amount quite easily.

After the first study, I think it would be wonderful if we could actually persuade a drug company to take over the funding.

I also voted to start immediately. The idea that we would rather spend our money on toys for Christmas is sad. Secret Santa is a lot of fun, but I would rather spend $60 on funding this study. Perhaps we could add that option to Secret Santa.

Thank you, Crystal for being proactive and for keeping us informed.

One more thing...It seems logical that the dose should be based on weight, but that is not necessarily true. It would be good to prove it.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Unless the company changes the label on the rabies vaccine, you can do every study you want and giving less rabies vaccine still will not equate to a legal vaccine.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

jmm said:


> Unless the company changes the label on the rabies vaccine, you can do every study you want and giving less rabies vaccine still will not equate to a legal vaccine.


Yes, but you have to start somewhere. Progress may be slow, but you have to start somewhere. We CAN persuade the drug companies to go with the lower doses, if we can create a demand.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

jmm said:


> Unless the company changes the label on the rabies vaccine, you can do every study you want and giving less rabies vaccine still will not equate to a legal vaccine.


True. But Dr Dodds not only got the drug companies to change the label on the rabies vaccine to every 3 years as well as AAHA changing the recommended protocol, she also was finally able to get all 50 states to adopt the 3 year booster protocol. Unbiased research is where it needs to start. Once the research has been done, then we can start to demand changes in the law.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> True. But Dr Dodds not only got the drug companies to change the label on the rabies vaccine to every 3 years as well as AAHA changing the recommended protocol, she also was finally able to get all 50 states to adopt the 3 year booster protocol. Unbiased research is where it needs to start. Once the research has been done, then we can start to demand changes in the law.


Exactly.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks, Crystal i'm so glad this grew out of threads and posts we had here recently about vaccines and without your care and perseverance we would be stuck complaining and not being proactive! I think of the money we raised for Lola's fund and GME research and feel we could make it. I agree with Sylvia about gifts and the holidays and usually ask my DH to donate to a chosen charity and would do so for this but right after raising $10,000 for Rescues i think it's hard to raise enough. If money is raised before Jan, it can't be earmarked for that particular study to take place later instead of going to another study? If it can't than probably best to wait but if it can would love it to be a SS option. We can also try to think of other fundraisers for it than just asking for money - maybe local events, etc. thanks to SM and mods and Yung for letting us pursue this!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I suppose with my background and the fact that I am an immunology patient myself, I like to know what the top veterinary experts know and recommend. I'm currently reading some Immunology articles on the WHO site.

In the latest vaccination guidelines article put out by the World Small Animal Veterinary Association, there is a question on page 28 about reducing vaccine dosage and the answer was no, it can't be smaller dose. This was question #26. I completely trust the recommendations made by this group, especially when Ron Schultz' name is on it. He is fairly conservative regarding vaccinations. I also think this group is thinking something genetic is the culprit for adverse reactions in small dogs.

Link to the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines. I thought they did a good job with the report.
http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf


From the information posted by Crystal, it appears Jean Dodds' background is more in Hematology. I personally would feel more like making a contribution if she were collaborating with experts such as Veterinary Immunologists and Geneticists. I would also be more comfortable contributing if I thought the correlation between vaccination adverse reactions and genetics were being researched. For some reason, I don't think dosage is the problem.

I think it's going to take MUCH more money if this study is done correctly. Like a minimum in the 500,000 to 1 million range.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

vjw said:


> I suppose with my background and the fact that I am an immunology patient myself, I like to know what the top veterinary experts know and recommend. I'm currently reading some Immunology articles on the WHO site.
> 
> In the latest vaccination guidelines article put out by the World Small Animal Veterinary Association, there is a question on page 28 about reducing vaccine dosage and the answer was no, it can't be smaller dose. This was question #26. I completely trust the recommendations made by this group, especially when Ron Schultz' name is on it. He is fairly conservative regarding vaccinations. I also think this group is thinking something genetic is the culprit for adverse reactions in small dogs.
> 
> ...


I heard an interview with Dr Schultz, saying that exact same thing. That the dose could not be reduced, wish I had a copy, but it was something about the size was needed for all the necessary components or something.  He has even said that his own dogs were titered and have good immunity and won't be getting anymore shots. (I am sure he meant except by law B)) I believe he said immunity is immunity, the level doesn't matter. Why I was surprised with this possible study was that he and Dr Dodds have worked together on these issues. 

This really only affects me if I need to travel with the girls, they have proven high immunity and won't be getting any more anyway.

Editing to include what Dr Schultz does himself
Dr. Schultz's core vaccine protocol for his own family's pets differs in that he actually runs antibody titers on the mother to know exactly when the best time is to effectively immunize the puppy or kitten for the 3 core viruses. Then he titers the little ones 2 or more weeks after the vaccine, and as long as the response is adequate, he doesn't in most cases revaccinate for the rest of the pet's life. Dr. Becker says she does the same as him.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for getting this started, Crystal and the mods. I will be supporting this study. I voted for doing it after the holidays but now I am wondering if we should try now? I am very divided on the issue. 

I have worked for many non profits and really holidays was our maximum fundraising time period. Most people are in a giving mood, other people are trying to get that tax break, etc.

At the same time, I do think it's too soon after the Rescue Raffle. Sorry I am not being very helpful, I guess the voting will guide us.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Just looked at your link VJW Yes he states it can't be smaller. I think this question is a good one for Dr Dodds. Why do you think that it can be made smaller vs Dr Schultz who says it can't. They are working together so I am sure she has the answer. 

He said this in another report,

Should a large dog (like a Great Dane) be injected 
with the same volume of vaccine as the 
small dog (like a Chihuahua)?
Yes. Unlike pharmaceuticals that are dose-dependent
, vaccines are not based on volume per 
body mass (size), but rather on the minimum immuniz
ing dose.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> True. But Dr Dodds not only got the drug companies to change the label on the rabies vaccine to every 3 years as well as AAHA changing the recommended protocol, she also was finally able to get all 50 states to adopt the 3 year booster protocol. Unbiased research is where it needs to start. Once the research has been done, then we can start to demand changes in the law.


Perfectly said!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I will contact the AHVMA today with the following 2 questions as these are the 2 questions that seem relevant in deciding whether or not SM should pursue fundraising for this study.

1. Which vaccines will be included in this study?

2. According to the WSAVA 2010 Vaccination Guidelines (pg. 28, questions 26 and 27, why does Dr. Dodds differ in her opinion that vaccines should be based on body mass?

_ 26. May I use smaller vaccine doses in small breeds to reduce the risk of adverse reactions?
No. The volume (e.g. 1.0 ml) as recommended by the manufacturer generally represents the minimum immunizing dose, therefore
the total amount must be given.
27. Should the large dog (Great Dane) be injected with the same volume of vaccine as the small dog (Chihuahua)?
Yes. Unlike pharmaceuticals that are dose-dependent, vaccines are not based on volume per body mass (size), but rather on the
minimum immunizing dose._

Am I correct in the questions that need to be answered?


As for me, I feel knowledge is needed to be able to make accurate decisions. I want my dogs properly vaccinated. However I don't want them over vaccinated. There are many health related issues stemming from over vaccination. I was at first disappointed in the results of the 5 year Rabies Challenge, that not all of the dogs in the study still had the antigens. However, I *DO* want to know exactly when my own dogs need a booster. I want them protected. So I'm grateful for the study and it's findings. Was it a waste of time and money? IMHO I don't believe so. We now know that every dog is still protected for 3 years and that some dogs are protected after 5 years. And we are hoping that through this study we will have an accepted rabies titer. I prefer custom tailored vaccination schedules based on individual needs. I have much respect for Dr. Shultz. As much for him as I do Dr. Dodds. And I also know that I have heard on several occasions Dr. Dodds as well as Dr. Becker say that they believe vaccine dosages should be based on body mass. So there does seem to be a difference in opinion on vaccine dosing. So to me, that implies that a study has never been done and this is based on theory. So the question is, if a small pilot study costing approx. $5500 is what it takes to show the world that vaccine dosage either does or does not need to be based on body mass, and brings security in that knowledge that we are not giving a harmful dosage with every booster and not causing future harm to toy breeds, is it worth the cost of that study? To me, it is. We already know that vaccination protocols originally in place were not correct. And the reason they went from MLV vaccines to killed, was due to yet another situation where a proper study/investigation was not performed. Which is why we now have adjuvants added to the vaccine. Something else that an animal could potentially have a reaction to. Which has questionable (potentially harmful) ingredients such as Mercury. 

Facts About the Rabies Vaccine

Joy, the verse that comes to mind is, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Prov 27:17 (NAS) You are very much correct that genetics plays a factor in animals that are predisposed to reactions and triggers to immune mediated disease. However I don't believe that is what is needed in this particular study as to whether or not vaccines should be based on body mass. I want to know what is the minimal amount truly needed to protect every dog and cat. It is however a start. Who knows what it may then lead to? Possibly the findings will lead to a study including the correlation to genetics.


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## Bailey&Me (Mar 8, 2010)

Thank you Crystal for doing all of this in support of this study. We appreciate it! You can definitely count me in for a donation.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Glad that this is opening up the discussion here and looking at all angles and posing good questions and opinions. I am not well versed at all in this area, just in my gut feeling that it makes no sense to use the same dose for a 100 lb dog and a 5 lb dog but that's just a personal feeling based in no science whatsoever. Come to think of it, I weigh roughly 118 and am pretty sure the vaccines I would get are the same as too a 320 lb man. :blink: But I've also had adverse reactions to things like the flu vaccine. So glad that real thought is being put into this and things proceed forward. Thank you everyone.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I will contact the AHVMA today with the following 2 questions as these are the 2 questions that seem relevant in deciding whether or not SM should pursue fundraising for this study.
> 
> 1. Which vaccines will be included in this study?
> 
> ...


Good post Crystal, :thumbsup: hopefully this will start the process for our babies to be properly protected with minimal harm.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I'm really glad we are addressing this. There are a few questions that need to be answered, and I can't think of any that haven't already been asked here regarding the study itself. But as far fundraising, have we considered partnering with any other toy dog groups? I know that the Yorkie people share the same concerns that we do, and how about the AMA? The health committee chairs are Tonia Holibaugh and Vicki Fierheller. But our own TamiZami is on the health committee. I can contact her and see if she can propose this to gage interest on the part the AMA.

I don't know that we even need to have a typical fundraiser with gifts etc. It would be nice to have a fundraising page as I did for Lola. We could possible use "Chip In" and "Go Fund Me." People can share the widgets on FB and where ever. The more web pages that you can get it attached to, the more donations you will garner.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Okay, I must admit that I voted against the study. However, I am having second thoughts ... and, I am requesting that my vote to not to pursue the study please be removed. 

And, yes, I will donate whatever I can to the to the study. So, please add a vote from me, to donations made after the holidays. 

I won't go into detail right now ... but, a lot has happened since Snowball's adverse reaction to the rabies vaccination last month. (two issues being Snowball air licking more often ... and a weight loss of almost 1/2 pound. And, he has a dental cleaning schedueled for November 4th ... so, another worry) 

Also, we were told by at least one professional, that even if Snowball had been given a lower dose of the rabies vaccine, he probably still would have had the adverse reaction. (I think based on the fact that he has already had a total of four rabies vaccinations since he was born, but, not sure) 

Felix and I have also been getting a lot of feedback ... that only one, or possibly two vaccinations ... would be sufficient to protect our pets from rabies during their whole lifetime here on earth. 

However, I am now thinking that at least Dr. Dodd has helped changed the annual vaccinations from one year to three. And, hopefully, soon, with contiinued research and studies ... the timeframe for legally required rabies vaccinations ... will be changed from three years to at least five/seven years ... thus giving doctors like Dr. Dodd, even more time ... to do further research ... in proving that our pets do not need to be continually revaccinated with the rabies vaccine and other vaccines.

So, Crystal, Yung, and to our super mods who are helping with this ... if one of you could please change my vote for donations after the holidays, I would appreciate that. And, thank you for all you are doing. 

In regard to donations ... I hope this ends up to be for donations, period ... and, no raffle ticket prizes. I just think it is too much for many members who will just not speak up about it. And, even after the holidays, funds may not be healthy for some of our SM members. Some of our SM members can contribute considerable amounts of money ... while others are not in a position to do so right now. I just hate to see anyone discouraged from participating and donating whatever they can ... even if it is a few dollars. A few dollars can add up when we have more members participating. 

As for suggesting donations instead of a SS gift ... I think that puts the SS participants in an awkward position. Several years ago, when we received SS suggestions for the fluff we were sending gifts to ... a note was made that they felt kind of guilty making suggestions for their Malt ... when there was an option showing up to give a donation in their name. 

I have two friends who are veterinarians. If at some point, you would like for me to reach out to them for suggestions, I would be happy to do so. And, we also have our Dr. Jamie. who used to be a moderator here (and now has her own practice) ... but, she is still a FB friend to many of us. In fact, Jaimie posted on my FB page that her Pixel also had an adverse reaction to the vaccine. So, maybe Jaimie could help with any sharing on FB?

I doubt this will help ... but, if Dr. Dodd ever requests medical histories of toy breed dogs who have had an adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine ... I have Snowball's complete history and would be happy to help in this way. His medical history can be followed since day one when he came home with us. I have detailed files from his vets, the internist specialist, the nutritionist, and the neurologist. Just trying to help in any way that I can ... along with donations.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

I agree with Marie and Pam. We can just make this a regular fund raising drive. Having prizes etc. also make it exclusive to SM which I hope it won't be. 

Can we make sure however we do it is through a recognized 501c so our employers can match our gifts?

Also agreed with Marie about not making this a thing on SS form. For me, if I want to donate to a charity I would just do it directly. Don't see the value in making Lynn go through all the trouble for SS when it's a lot simpler doing it directly.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Just want to put this out there for anyone worried about Secret Santa. SS is such a fun activity and people look forward to it every year that it has never even once been considered to do something like this in place of SS. I feel SM deals with enough sad things that we need to fully relish in the fun and joyous activities here on SM. As for whether or not we need to do a fund raiser similar to rescue raffle or just get donations, that is up to the group. Personally I feel just having people donate would be the route to go. No organized fund raisers. But I can be lazy. And have very little free time. So if we need someone to get the ball rolling on a raffle or auction, I'm hoping someone will step up. We have said from the beginning we would like to get donations from outside of SM so that is why it will be helpful to have our drive on the AHVMA web page. And we would like to see various toy breed parent clubs helping to fund raise as well. SM doesn't need to be the one to totally fund this study, but to spearhead the fund raising. 

And yes, the AHVMA is a 501(c)3 non profit organization. All donations will be tax deductible and employers can match donations.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Pam - checking with TamiZami would be a great idea.

As Crystal said, this is a straight fundraiser - no games, prizes, etc. the way it would work is this:

- the AHVMA Foundation would put a special Donation link on their website. Any funds donated by anyone using this link would go towards funding the research so other toy breed groups could certainly help out.
- once $5500 has been raised, the research will be approved and funded by the AHVMA Foundation
- if by a date we specify, let's say July 2014, the needed amount hasn't been raised, the AHVMA Foundation will allocate the funds to another research project. Since we got the ball rolling, they would likely respect our wishes if we asked them to donate the funds to the Rabies Challenge, which is still working on a titer for rabies.
- since donations would go directly to AHVMA Foundation, which is a 501(c)3 organization, donations would be tax deductible and likely eligible for an employer match if you're fortunate enough to work for such a company.
- The AHVMA Foundation is the research funding arm of the AHVMA.
- I have a PDF copy of the AHVMA Foundation's 2012 IRS Form 990 which all 501(c)3 organizations are required to make public in case anyone else is as nerdy-minded as me when it comes to such things (I spent over 10 years on boards and as Treasurer of two 501(c)3 organizations so these things are actually interesting to me)

Keep asking the good questions so we can support ongoing good health for our fluffs!


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

vjw said:


> Which vaccines will be studied?
> 
> Will a genetic component be investigated?
> 
> ...


There has been a study in 2005 in the JAVMA.


"The risk of a VAAE (vaccine-associated adverse events) in this study population was inversely related to a dog’s weight. This weight-response relationship was previously suggested by results of a [2002] study in which dogs of toy breeds had significantly more suspected VAAEs than other dogs, although body weight was not evaluated. The manufacturers’ recommended dose for all vaccines administered in our study was 1 mL regardless of body weight, and all vaccines were from single-dose vials. Vaccines, in contrast to virtually all veterinary pharmaceuticals, are prescribed on a 1-dose-fits-all basis, rather than by body weight. Prelicensing clinical trials investigate the safety of vaccines with doses in excess of label directions but only in a limited number of dogs. The results of this study suggest that trials in dogs that weigh > 10 kg underestimate the expected VAAE rate in smaller dogs.

Prelicensing clinical trials also investigate the safety of vaccines in several hundred dogs at multiple hospital locations, but specific breeds may be under- or overrepresented. Mature weights of dogs of different breeds may vary by 5 to 10 times and occasionally by > 50 times. Therefore, a 1-mL vaccine dose results in a ratio of vaccine volume received per kilogram of body weight that can vary widely.

Ultimately, in this retrospective study evaluating 3.5 million full vaccine doses administered to 1.2 million dogs, 38.2 adverse vaccine reactions were observed for every 10,000 dogs. Which is not a big number of vaccine reactions. What was surprising, however, were the following observations:

The VAAE rate decreased significantly as body weight increased. Risk was 27% to 38% greater for neutered versus sexually intact dogs and 35% to 64% greater for dogs approximately 1 to 3 years old versus 2 to 9 months old. The risk of a VAAE significantly increased as the number of vaccine doses administered per office visit increased; each additional vaccine significantly increased risk of an adverse event by 27% in dogs ≤ 10 kg (22 lb) and 12% in dogs > 10 kg."


Please look at this site where this vet gives her thoughts explaining the study. Pretty well written.

http://m.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2011/july/smaller_dog_smaller_vaccine


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm not entirely sure why there is negativity regarding this research? It's a wonderful start backed by an experienced researcher. in science, anecdotes are just anecdotes and case reports until there is enough actual research to support the hypothesis. We have to start somewhere and hopefully this will lead to more and more research that can produce similar findings. Of course, all the fine details will have to be tuned to create a strong study (for example, the controls, the amount of adjuvant vs actual vaccine component, etc...) BUT it's a start. Research starts small and then gains momentum and funding for larger studies. 

Thank you Crystal for being such a strong voice. I think SM, parent toy clubs, other toy breed forums can all join together to gather the donations needed. I think a standard donation fundraiser would work with the right amount of publicity and exposure! 


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

hoaloha said:


> There has been a study in 2005 in the JAVMA.
> 
> 
> "The risk of a VAAE (vaccine-associated adverse events) in this study population was inversely related to a dog’s weight. This weight-response relationship was previously suggested by results of a [2002] study in which dogs of toy breeds had significantly more suspected VAAEs than other dogs, although body weight was not evaluated. The manufacturers’ recommended dose for all vaccines administered in our study was 1 mL regardless of body weight, and all vaccines were from single-dose vials. Vaccines, in contrast to virtually all veterinary pharmaceuticals, are prescribed on a 1-dose-fits-all basis, rather than by body weight. Prelicensing clinical trials investigate the safety of vaccines with doses in excess of label directions but only in a limited number of dogs. The results of this study suggest that trials in dogs that weigh > 10 kg underestimate the expected VAAE rate in smaller dogs.
> ...


Towards the end of that article is this statement:

"1. While I do firmly believe that a half dose is likely to be less adverse vaccine event-inducing when administered to _any_ dog, I can't be sure that a half-dose will be effective in _every dog_. It's simply not been investigated."

That's exactly what Dr. Dodds will be doing - investigating this idea.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Not all states mandate 3 year rabies vaccines. In some states it is still up to the local municipality. There are still some places that require annual rabies vaccines. 
There are a panel of veterinarians that recommend vaccine protocol for the AVMA and AAHA. As a matter of fact Dr. Ford from North Carolina has been at the forefront of updating vaccine protocols.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

jmm said:


> Not all states mandate 3 year rabies vaccines. In some states it is still up to the local municipality. There are still some places that require annual rabies vaccines.
> There are a panel of veterinarians that recommend vaccine protocol for the AVMA and AAHA. As a matter of fact Dr. Ford from North Carolina has been at the forefront of updating vaccine protocols.


Right. I am glad you brought this up ... that in some states it is still up to the local municipality. And, that there are still some places that require annual rabies vaccines.


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## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't pretend to know much about vaccines but I do know that Zoey had a reaction to her vaccinations and she was diagnosed with IBD not too long after. I titer now and will not be getting any of my girls vaccinated. I'm all for this research, there has to be an answer. I truly believe we're hurting our dogs with over vaccination but we want them protected too. Dr. Dobbs is so well known that I'm very happy to hear she is going to donate her time for this. 
I'll be happy to donate whenever this is started. 
Thanks so much Crystal.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

jmm said:


> Not all states mandate 3 year rabies vaccines. In some states it is still up to the local municipality. There are still some places that require annual rabies vaccines.
> There are a panel of veterinarians that recommend vaccine protocol for the AVMA and AAHA. As a matter of fact Dr. Ford from North Carolina has been at the forefront of updating vaccine protocols.





Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Right. I am glad you brought this up ... that in some states it is still up to the local municipality. And, that there are still some places that require annual rabies vaccines.



This is true. However the number of local municipalities that do not comply with the 3 year rabies guideline is getting smaller and smaller due to the diligence of a few people who live in those municipalities. And I've seen people ask on Dr. Jean Dodds FB page for help who live in those areas. She cannot fight the fight for everyone, but she does give them the info needed to contact the correct people as well as the correct data and information to try and change their local law. If anyone here on SM lives in one of those areas, please message her and she will get you the info you need.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Rabies-Challenge-Fund/119106981159


Look...I'm not saying that this small pilot study is all that it will take to affect change. But it is a start. "A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step" Lao Tzu And something else to consider, "“The only people who can change the world are people who want to. And not everybody does.” Hugh MacLeod


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

hoaloha said:


> I'm not entirely sure why there is negativity regarding this research? It's a wonderful start backed by an experienced researcher. in science, anecdotes are just anecdotes and case reports until there is enough actual research to support the hypothesis. We have to start somewhere and hopefully this will lead to more and more research that can produce similar findings. Of course, all the fine details will have to be tuned to create a strong study (for example, the controls, the amount of adjuvant vs actual vaccine component, etc...) BUT it's a start. Research starts small and then gains momentum and funding for larger studies.
> 
> Thank you Crystal for being such a strong voice. I think SM, parent toy clubs, other toy breed forums can all join together to gather the donations needed. I think a standard donation fundraiser would work with the right amount of publicity and exposure!
> 
> ...


Marisa, I don't understand why you think there is negativity regarding this research. Could you please be more specific why you feel this way?

My honest thoughts are that we are not getting through to enough people on SM to particapte in the conversation ... and for them to offer feedback with their thoughts and suggestions. In reality, only sixteen members have responded to this thread. (I don't know why the poll results show more people voting ... I am assuming they are doing so without participating in the discussion on this thread. And, on another note ... I never received a response to acknowledge if my initial vote not to go forward ... was deleted, upon my request. It seems like one of our mods could do this, right? I would like to make sure our polls are accurate.

I will state one more time that I think the research is important. And, I support it. As far as donations ... I do think we need to reach out more to the general public. 

I didn't mean to sound negative about Secret Santa. I have participated in the past and I think it is wonderful and fun for many of our members. And, Lynn always does such a fantastic job putting it together. I would participate this year ... but, too much is going on here right now. And, honestly, there is nothing Snowball needs. His treats are extremely limited. He has enough clothes for now. He has many blankets. And, he is so particular about toys that I feel bad when friends have spent money and he doesn't take to any new toys. (he has always been like this). And, without going into too much detail, I have two surgeries coming up in the near future to help me walk better ... this is taking up a lot of my time). I happen to love buying gifts for others ... but, right now it's not the best time for me to participate in the Secret Santa. Again, I commend Lynn for always doing such a fabulous job with it. 

This does not stop me, however, from making personal donations. I, just in general, prefer to do so without wanting any special recognition for how much I might have donated. My personal feeling is that this discourages others from making donations ... I know, this might be difficult for others to understand. I am one who has always hated the lists of platinum, gold, silver, and bronze donors. I think it discourages the steel and plain metal donors ... as though their donations don't mean as much.

I feel bad that we have had such a minimal response from SM members. I am not sure that it is because they don't care. Personally, there are so many new threads on a daily basis ... lots of pictures, too. So, unless a thread is bumped up ... it can get missed or lost in the many threads. (this happens to me all the time on Facebook)

Okay, I just wanted to share one more time ... that I do care about the research. I think it is very important. I have heard from too many people ... that their dogs have had adverse reactions to the rabies vaccination. And, I strongly believe many of the adverse reactions have NOT been reported to the proper authorities and pharmaceutical companies. Somehow, I believe we need to reach out more to the general public. How, I am not sure. 

Maybe we need to think of a thread subject title that will help draw more SM members in to read what Crystal has done so far to help support Dr.Dodd's research project. 

And, just because one's beloved fluff baby might not have had an adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine (or other vaccines) ... does not mean it will not happen in their future vaccinations. We all need to do everything possible to protect our precious fluffs from any potential harm.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I support the study... however couldn't donate until after the holidays. ( have some personal things going on at the moment) . I don't have any 'concepts' to add that haven't already been mentioned.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Marie, I'm not certain but my guess is that even the mods can't change the poll. There's probably a safeguard in place to prevent tampering with numbers. But it's just a guess. I am also wondering if some people are waiting to vote until I've been able to provide the answers to the 2 questions. Although I do think the 2nd question about why Dr. Dodds feels vaccines should be based on body mass is no longer needing to be answered since Marisa provided the other study. I have contacted the AHVMA with the 2 questions and received partial answers but was told Dr Dodds herself will have to answer the rest. I've not heard from her yet. Personally I hope I have not offended her by questioning her on the whole concept of this study when I approached her on it to begin with. But I tend to overly worry about things like that.

This is the response I've been given so far:

1. The study will use "Nobivac DPV, formerly Progard Puppy DPV; Merck Animal Health" which is a vaccine for distemper (CDV) and parvo (CPV), only. 

2. Manufacturer's recommendations are based on the criteria that they wish to investigate, not on every possibility. A study done in 2000 showed that, just as for dogs given a full dose of vaccine, "greater than 95% of the dogs given a half dose mounted what is considered to be protective antibody titers to both CDV and CPV"
Twark, L, Dodds, WJ.2000. Clinical application of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 217:1021-1024.
 
In addition, small size was one of the risk factors for reactions to vaccinations 3 days after vaccination
 Moore, GE et al, 2005. Adverse events diagnosed within three days of vaccine administration in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc _227:1102–1108._
(This information is from the grant application itself. I am also cc'ing this to the principle investigators so that they may add anything else they wish to.



*Nancy Scanlan, DVM, CVA, MSFP
Executive Director of the AHVMA*


If we do a simple donation based fund raiser through the AHVMA, I'm assuming it will be like they handle all their donations. No dollar amount is listed. Only people who want to be recognized for contributing or supporting are listed. Have you looked at how donations are listed on both the Rabies Challenge site and the AHVMA's site with past links I've provided? Here they are again:

Duration of Immunity Study for Rabies Vaccine - Rabies Challenge Fund

AHVM Foundation

However if we see we are not getting enough funds by asking for donations, I'm not opposed to someone putting together something fun like the rescue raffle to help spur on energy and encourage donations.

As for why so few people have responded in this thread is probably because if they do vote, they may not feel the need to say why they voted the way they voted. And it can be intimidating when you don't know for sure you are truly understanding everything to post publicly. So I'm hoping that now that people have a few more answers and once I hear more from Dr. Dodds, specifically as to why rabies is not included in this study, we will have more people voting.

As for me, I've already publicly stated that due to various health concerns/reasons, none of my 3 will ever be vaccinated again. So I'm doing this out of concern for all the toy breeds out there as well as any puppy that may still be in my future.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Marisa, I don't understand why you think there is negativity regarding this research. Could you please be more specific why you feel this way?
> 
> My honest thoughts are that we are not getting through to enough people on SM to particapte in the conversation ... and for them to offer feedback with their thoughts and suggestions. In reality, only sixteen members have responded to this thread. (I don't know why the poll results show more people voting ... I am assuming they are doing so without participating in the discussion on this thread. And, on another note ... I never received a response to acknowledge if my initial vote not to go forward ... was deleted, upon my request. It seems like one of our mods could do this, right? I would like to make sure our polls are accurate.
> 
> ...


Marie, I didn't find your post to sound negative in the least. I understand that many of us have so much going on that timing of the fundraiser to later may be more fruitful. You and snowball are going through so much right now, yet, you care enough about this cause to share your ideas. 

I was referring to picking up on negativity from those who only post doubtful and critical responses without much sense of positivity- almost like a fatalistic, subtly argumentative attitude (and I'm not just referring to this thread). I think it's great (and also necessary) to objectively come up with counterpoints and additional ideas, but it's also the delivery of such info that is important (and that is hard sometimes on the internet). Otherwise, it just seems like some people choose to be contrary and negative for the sake of being so. 


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Marie, I'm not certain but my guess is that even the mods can't change the poll. There's probably a safeguard in place to prevent tampering with numbers. But it's just a guess.


Crystal is correct - changing poll results isn't one of the moderator functions we have access to. Just like you can only vote once. 

As of right now, 35 people have voted and 33 of those are in favor of the research, with varying reactions as to timing.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Ok so I heard from Dr. Palmquist as to why rabies is not being included in this first pilot study. Here is his reply:

The rabies study could be done but that would be a separate investigation and is more troublesome as rabies vaccination regulations do no allow reduced vaccine doses. 

For now let's do one thing at a time. We so greatly appreciate your interest and support. Together we can evolve a gentle and effective process for protecting our little loves. 

Dr Palmquist 


Hope this helps for those who asked. And...._*I hope more people will show their support by voting. The more people who vote will be a good indication as to how successful a drive will be for this study.*_ rayer: I'm having to give myself my little optimistic pep talk in that a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. :blush:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

maggieh said:


> Crystal is correct - changing poll results isn't one of the moderator functions we have access to. Just like you can only vote once.
> 
> As of right now, 35 people have voted and 33 of those are in favor of the research, with varying reactions as to timing.


Thank you, Maggie, for your response. I guess I was hoping Yung could change it it for us. However, I understand. I just thought because I admitted openly my change of thoughts on how I wished to vote that it would help.

It was my fault. Oh, well ... hopefully, anyone who reads the whole thread will see that I wanted to change my vote ... and that, so far, and in reality, there are 34 in favor, instead of 33.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I'm having to give myself my little optimistic pep talk in that a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. :blush:


Crystal, this is truly a huge first stop. Having someone as well known and well regarded as Dr. Dodds lead the research means that the results, whatever they may be, will be taken seriously. I can't imagine a better person to be involved, and I feel like we have won the lottery!
It is amazing that this really hasn't been look at before, and the fact that it is now is thanks to you asking the question. So thank you!
This could be the beginning of a big change in the way that little dogs are vaccinated.

I think that the people interested in this are going to be a small group of the overall group of small breed dog owners. There are many owners of small dogs who are not interested in limited vaccines, or nutrition, or holistic alternatives. Those who are interested are usually passionate about it because we have seen the harm done from overvaccination or poor nutrition. Sadly, as we have seen with our members here, so many have had reactions to vaccines, some extremely serious. Many others have been lucky, and maybe aren't as concerned. So please don't be discouraged by what seems to be a possible lack of interest. We need to focus on the smaller group who are interested, and then find that same smaller group in other places, like other small breed forums, or AKC breed groups, through holistic vets who use social media, like Dr. Becker, and small dog advocates like Jan Rasmusen, and maybe through holistic focused websites and publications like Whole Dog Journal and the like. When we add all these people together, there will be lots of interest. SM is just one small part of the overall group of potential donors and interested owners who will be so excited that this research is going to be done. This is bigger than SM.

We are just at the very beginning of this! So exciting!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Kathleen said:


> Crystal, this is truly a huge first stop. Having someone as well known and well regarded as Dr. Dodds lead the research means that the results, whatever they may be, will be taken seriously. I can't imagine a better person to be involved, and I feel like we have won the lottery!
> It is amazing that this really hasn't been look at before, and the fact that it is now is thanks to you asking the question. So thank you!
> This could be the beginning of a big change in the way that little dogs are vaccinated.
> 
> ...


Kathleen I think you are my new best friend!! :smootch:


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Can I be head cheerleader? 
:cheer:


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Just voted. I just wanted to clear up something that I think stemmed from my posts and were brought up by Marie and commented on by others. It wasn't my idea to add on another rescue raffle event on SM when I mentioned fundraising since we've got a lot going on here with just coming off that and entering SS time. I was suggesting that people who might not have many funds to donate can come up with creative ways on their own to raise funds if they want to. As I said with my DS's school they always said people can become involved in many ways -- some have lots of money, some have lots of time, some have lots of talents and resources. So everyone who wants to can feel like they can be involved. I remember reading that Bridget had a yard sale and the money was going to rescues. Also Sandi's daughter did a Pampered Chef event earmarked for rescues. Ideas like that could be used to help us raise money for the study. " "Chip In" and "Go Fund Me" are great ideas too but I've seen donations to some charities i'm involved with go down lately and feel like sometimes you need to be creative as well. Whatever works for whomever.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Marisa: Are you an MD?


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

vjw said:


> Marisa: Are you an MD?


Joy, I'm a pediatrician  So, I deal with skin babies rather than furbabies!


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

hoaloha said:


> Joy, I'm a pediatrician  So, I deal with skin babies rather than furbabies!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I asked if you are an MD.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Kathleen said:


> Can I be head cheerleader?
> :cheer:


Hired!! :aktion033:



vjw said:


> I asked if you are an MD.


:blink:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

i just voted....sorry I didn't see this thread earlier. I didn't read through all the posts, but I think this is great and I'm willing to donate at any time for this cause.

Also, I wonder if we could put this out to other small breed forums...I belong to a chihuahua forum also....

And, although not active, I am a member of a yorkie forum too.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Hired!! :aktion033:
> 
> 
> 
> :blink:


I'm confused too. All I'm asking is yes or no. Is she an MD?


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

A pediatrician is an MD. 


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

vjw said:


> Marisa: Are you an MD?





hoaloha said:


> Joy, I'm a pediatrician  So, I deal with skin babies rather than furbabies!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App





vjw said:


> I asked if you are an MD.


Joy, i'm a bit confused, Marisa answered your question she's a *Pediatrician* so therefore she's an *MD* so why did you question her again?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

bellaratamaltese said:


> A pediatrician is an MD.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I worked for and along-side MDs my entire career and I know all about credentialing. I've also learned to dig deeper when something doesn't seem quite right, especially when there is an evasive answer. I can't tell you how many people I've met who led me to believe they were an RN. Upon questioning, they are a nurse's aide. Why they need to be deceptive is beyond me. They have one of the hardest jobs on the planet.

I'm asking Marisa, yes or no, are you an MD? It's not a hard question.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

mysugarbears said:


> Joy, i'm a bit confused, Marisa answered your question she's a *Pediatrician* so therefore she's an *MD* so why did you question her again?


One of my first jobs included being a medical staff secretary. I was the first person to receive physician staff applications. Trust me, not all who claim to be an MDs are MDs, nor does it mean they are currently licensed.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

vjw said:


> I worked for and along-side MDs my entire career and I know all about credentialing. I've also learned to dig deeper when something doesn't seem quite right, especially when there is an evasive answer. I can't tell you how many people I've met who led me to believe they were an RN. Upon questioning, they are a nurse's aide. Why they need to be deceptive is beyond me. They have one of the hardest jobs on the planet.
> 
> I'm asking Marisa, yes or no, are you an MD? It's not a hard question.


Again, a pediatrician IS a physician. What do you need to see? Her CV? A diploma? How is saying "I'm a pediatrician" an illusive answer? Are you saying Marisa is deceptive?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I didn't add that in my earlier post that I was the person who contacted my state's board of medical licensure and believe it or not, sometimes I got a different story from the medical licensure board.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

pammy4501 said:


> Again, a pediatrician IS a physician. What do you need to see? Her CV? A diploma? How is saying "I'm a pediatrician" an illusive answer? Are you saying Marisa is deceptive?


Pam, all I'm asking is a yes or no answer to the MD question from Marisa.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

vjw said:


> I worked for and along-side MDs my entire career and I know all about credentialing. I've also learned to dig deeper when something doesn't seem quite right, especially when there is an evasive answer. I can't tell you how many people I've met who led me to believe they were an RN. Upon questioning, they are a nurse's aide. Why they need to be deceptive is beyond me. They have one of the hardest jobs on the planet.
> 
> I'm asking Marisa, yes or no, are you an MD? It's not a hard question.





vjw said:


> One of my first jobs included being a medical staff secretary. I was the first person to receive physician staff applications. Trust me, not all who claim to be an MDs are MDs, nor does it mean they are currently licensed.




Are you serious, so your questioning Marisa's credibility? I'll refrain from saying anything else in my comment.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

vjw said:


> Pam, all I'm asking is a yes or no answer to the MD question from Marisa.


I think she gave you her answer. This is rather insulting.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

vjw said:


> One of my first jobs included being a medical staff secretary. I was the first person to receive physician staff applications. Trust me, not all who claim to be an MDs are MDs, nor does it mean they are currently licensed.


You know Joy, in past threads here on SM that pertain to medical and nutritional topics, you have eluded to 'your background'. Yet when asked you've never stated exactly what your background is. At least none that I have seen. But I've gone MIA a few times so I may have missed it. What exactly is your background that has given you the opinions in medicine and nutrition that you have referenced? And if your background is that you are having medical issues, please do not feel I'm asking you to publicly state what is going on. Someone who is undergoing medical treatments will surely do a lot of research and come to some pretty strong opinions. I'm just curious if your background is that of a medical or science background.

And I guess I'm just not sure I get what your motive is. You have the opportunity to vote in the poll as well as you have voiced your opinions and questions. You are not in any way obligated or forced to contribute if SM does agree to spearhead this fundraiser. And if we go ahead and fund this study, to which you don't need to contribute, wouldn't you love it if the study actually proved your thoughts on this correct?


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## Meilerca (Dec 16, 2012)

Just Voted!! I am in favor of the research!! I am a Physician Assistant, and I am all for research into effective but safe vaccinations for our little ones.. If i can do anything please let me know..Thank you so much Crystal for spearheading this!!


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> You know Joy, in past threads here on SM that pertain to medical and nutritional topics, you have eluded to 'your background'. Yet when asked you've never stated exactly what your background is. At least none that I have seen. But I've gone MIA a few times so I may have missed it. What exactly is your background that has given you the opinions in medicine and nutrition that you have referenced?
> 
> And I guess I'm just not sure I get what your motive is. You have the opportunity to vote in the poll as well as you have voiced your opinions and questions. You are not in any way obligated or forced to contribute if SM does agree to spearhead this fundraiser. And if we go ahead and fund this study, to which you don't need to contribute, wouldn't you love it if the study actually proved your thoughts on this correct?


I actually have mentioned my background. I've never claimed to be something I'm not. If you will note in my posts I rarely just give my opinion. I link to credible sources. I did have a nutrition course in college.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I do have an Associate of Science and Bachelor of Science with a medical background. I've worked as an Office Manager at a multi-physician medical clinic, at a small hospital as Quality Assurance Coordinator/Medical Staff Secretary. My last job was in management at a large teaching and research hospital.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

vjw said:


> I actually have mentioned my background. I've never claimed to be something I'm not. If you will note in my posts I rarely just give my opinion. I link to credible sources. I did have a nutrition course in college.



Never mind, not stooping to her level.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

vjw said:


> I do have an Associate of Science and Bachelor of Science with a medical background. I've worked as an Office Manager at a multi-physician medical clinic, at a small hospital as Quality Assurance Coordinator/Medical Staff Secretary. My last job was in management at a large teaching and research hospital.




Well, anyone can say they have these degrees and have had these positions. Are you or were you an MD?


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

vjw said:


> Pam, all I'm asking is a yes or no answer to the MD question from Marisa.


Joy, I am a physician. I have no idea what your problem is except you are being quite rude. 

For the record, I am actually considered a DO- which is a fully licensed physician just as MD. (Doctor of osteopathic medicine) I've actually had EXTRA training in holistic osteopathic manipulative medicine. I went to an MD (allopathic) residency for Pediatrics at USC and am fully licensed by the state of California by the California osteopathic medical board and I am board certified by the American Board of Pediatrics (ABP). If you want my full name and license number, PM me. I have nothing to hide. I work as a full-time pediatric hospitalist. Is there anything else you need to know? Do you want my social security number and credit card info as well to run a credit check?


Not sure why you are choosing to attack me and claim I'm a liar or something. You asked for a study and I showed you one. I have been nothing but honest on this forum.

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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

hoaloha said:


> Joy, I am a physician. I have no idea what your problem is except you are being quite rude.
> 
> For the record, I am actually considered a DO- which is a fully licensed physician just as MD. (Doctor of osteopathic medicine) I've actually had EXTRA training in holistic osteopathic manipulative medicine. I went to an MD (allopathic) residency for Pediatrics at USC and am fully licensed by the state of California by the California osteopathic medical board and I am board certified by the American Board of Pediatrics (ABP). If you want my full name and license number, PM me. I have nothing to hide. I work as a full-time pediatric hospitalist. Is there anything else you need to know? Do you want my social security number and credit card info as well to run a credit check?
> 
> ...


Marisa! Don't you dare offer your social security number or credit card information! We know who you are and that is all that matters. My goodness, how many SM members have met you in person, too? 

I have to smile because I was going to respond before your post and remark that you are a "physician" ... same as a doctor and MD. 

I am stunned that anyone would question your credentials.

:grouphug: Marisa :grouphug:


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

hoaloha said:


> Joy, I am a physician. I have no idea what your problem is except you are being quite rude.
> 
> For the record, I am actually considered a DO- which is a fully licensed physician just as MD. (Doctor of osteopathic medicine) I've actually had EXTRA training in holistic osteopathic manipulative medicine. I went to an MD (allopathic) residency for Pediatrics at USC and am fully licensed by the state of California by the California osteopathic medical board and I am board certified by the American Board of Pediatrics (ABP). If you want my full name and license number, PM me. I have nothing to hide. I work as a full-time pediatric hospitalist. Is there anything else you need to know? Do you want my social security number and credit card info as well to run a credit check?
> 
> ...



Marisa, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone, especially someone like that.

Those of us that have met you and know you know you have nothing to hide and you don't have to prove yourself to her. :hugging:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Soooo.....:back2topic:



Kathleen said:


> Crystal, this is truly a huge first stop. Having someone as well known and well regarded as Dr. Dodds lead the research means that the results, whatever they may be, will be taken seriously. I can't imagine a better person to be involved, and I feel like we have won the lottery!
> It is amazing that this really hasn't been look at before, and the fact that it is now is thanks to you asking the question. So thank you!
> This could be the beginning of a big change in the way that little dogs are vaccinated.
> 
> ...


You have some really great ideas as to where to also share this study to help get funding! Thank you!!!



Snowbody said:


> Just voted. I just wanted to clear up something that I think stemmed from my posts and were brought up by Marie and commented on by others. It wasn't my idea to add on another rescue raffle event on SM when I mentioned fundraising since we've got a lot going on here with just coming off that and entering SS time. I was suggesting that people who might not have many funds to donate can come up with creative ways on their own to raise funds if they want to. As I said with my DS's school they always said people can become involved in many ways -- some have lots of money, some have lots of time, some have lots of talents and resources. So everyone who wants to can feel like they can be involved. I remember reading that Bridget had a yard sale and the money was going to rescues. Also Sandi's daughter did a Pampered Chef event earmarked for rescues. Ideas like that could be used to help us raise money for the study. " "Chip In" and "Go Fund Me" are great ideas too but I've seen donations to some charities i'm involved with go down lately and feel like sometimes you need to be creative as well. Whatever works for whomever.


Susan these are all wonderful suggestions for those that are unable to contribute on their own but want to help. :thumbsup:



The A Team said:


> i just voted....sorry I didn't see this thread earlier. I didn't read through all the posts, but I think this is great and I'm willing to donate at any time for this cause.
> 
> Also, I wonder if we could put this out to other small breed forums...I belong to a chihuahua forum also....
> 
> And, although not active, I am a member of a yorkie forum too.


Thank you Pat!! I think once we have everything finalized and an actual link on the Foundations site for donations, having you go to some of the other breed forums you're a part of would be wonderful! As would sharing on Ava's FB page. She has quite a following. :wub:


btw I just received an email from Dr. Dodds this evening. She apologized for not responding personally earlier but was in Pennsylvania teaching yesterday. Her response was:

"This vaccine “half –dose” study should provide some important answers to an age-old question. Best wishes, Jean"


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

That was a good way to take away the serious subject on this thread for another SM drama. Shame on you Joy.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm not trying to be discouraging, but I do want to be [email protected] sure of something before I start asking myself and other people to finance it. 
In addition, my experience with Soda's life-threatening reaction would not be changed by reducing the amount because a single drop of adjuvant would kill him.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

jmm said:


> I'm not trying to be discouraging, but I do want to be [email protected] sure of something before I start asking myself and other people to finance it.
> In addition, my experience with Soda's life-threatening reaction would not be changed by reducing the amount because a single drop of adjuvant would kill him.


Exactly! - Jackie asks relevant questions and brings up ideas (as in her comments in the other thread) that should be addressed. This is done objectively with the idea to clarify and help the goal, not to be contrary to it.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

vjw said:


> I do have an Associate of Science and Bachelor of Science with a medical background. I've worked as an Office Manager at a multi-physician medical clinic, at a small hospital as Quality Assurance Coordinator/Medical Staff Secretary. My last job was in management at a large teaching and research hospital.


Wow, that's a vague answer.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

jmm said:


> I'm not trying to be discouraging, but I do want to be [email protected] sure of something before I start asking myself and other people to finance it.
> In addition, my experience with Soda's life-threatening reaction would not be changed by reducing the amount because a single drop of adjuvant would kill him.


Hmmm....maybe I'm missing something. But in the very first post in this thread, I did state:

"I think it is also important to note that if your fluff has had a true allergic reaction to a vaccine, whether their allergy is coming from the actual vaccine or adjuvant, by reducing the amount of the vaccine will not prevent them from having another allergic reaction. But will it lessen the severity of the reaction for those that are having their first vaccine? My biggest concern with the way vaccines are dosed now is that I believe this is why we are seeing so many auto immune related illnesses/diseases in our toy breeds."

This study is not about proving that a lower dose vaccine will prevent a true allergic reaction. Will it help to prevent other adverse reactions if a lower dose vaccine can be used? And isn't the whole reason behind a study to find out the answer to an unknown question(s)? We may find out through this study that a one size fits all vaccine is truly what is needed. Although there is enough documentation out there and beliefs of some well respected vets that believe the outcome of the study will prove otherwise. If we do find out through this study that the current vaccine dosage is correct, isn't it worth it to give everyone peace of mind and have a certain known answer? Would it help to read the entire grant proposal?



hoaloha said:


> Exactly! - Jackie asks relevant questions and brings up ideas (as in her comments in the other thread) that should be addressed. This is done objectively with the idea to clarify and help the goal, not to be contrary to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just wanting to make sure, I thought I had all the questions answered that were asked. Have I missed some?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

To be clear, all this study will do is say yes or no to an immunizing titer with a smaller dose, correct? 
Assuming this lower dose is immunizing, then what will be done to find out if the lower dose decreases diseases that we suspect are triggered by the vaccine? My thoughts are, if all it takes is 1 drop to stimulate the immune system for a vaccine reactions, how will we find out how much it takes to trigger other diseases? 
I think I grasp what the study is doing....but I'm not sure of the implications of the information gathered...


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

jmm said:


> To be clear, all this study will do is say yes or no to an immunizing titer with a smaller dose, correct?
> Assuming this lower dose is immunizing, then what will be done to find out if the lower dose decreases diseases that we suspect are triggered by the vaccine? My thoughts are, if all it takes is 1 drop to stimulate the immune system for a vaccine reactions, how will we find out how much it takes to trigger other diseases?
> I think I grasp what the study is doing....but I'm not sure of the implications of the information gathered...


I'm not qualified to answer that. But I'll send this to Dr. Dodds, Dr. Scanlan and Dr. Palmquist.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

jmm said:


> To be clear, all this study will do is say yes or no to an immunizing titer with a smaller dose, correct?
> Assuming this lower dose is immunizing, then what will be done to find out if the lower dose decreases diseases that we suspect are triggered by the vaccine? My thoughts are, if all it takes is 1 drop to stimulate the immune system for a vaccine reactions, how will we find out how much it takes to trigger other diseases?
> I think I grasp what the study is doing....but I'm not sure of the implications of the information gathered...


I keep trying to say I think this has already been done because of what experts such as Shultz says about the dose. My personal opinion is that we are not at the point technologically nor do we know enough academically to conclude that other factors such as genetics, allergies, hormones, aren't part of the problem.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I would also recommend that either a theory or hypothesis be offered before you contribute to ANY research.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

mysugarbears said:


> Well, anyone can say they have these degrees and have had these positions. Are you or were you an MD?



Nope. I gave an honest to God listing of my level of education. If anything I under reported my background. B)


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

vjw said:


> Nope. I gave an honest to God listing of my level of education. If anything I under reported my background. B)


As did I. Nothing but the truth. I think there are many brilliant people on this forum with various backgrounds. 

Now, back to topic to helping our fluffs . 


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

hoaloha said:


> For the record, I am actually considered a DO- which is a fully licensed physician just as MD. (Doctor of osteopathic medicine) I've actually had EXTRA training in holistic osteopathic manipulative medicine. I went to an MD (allopathic) residency for Pediatrics at USC and am fully licensed by the state of California by the California osteopathic medical board and I am board certified by the American Board of Pediatrics (ABP).
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Wow Marisa, I had no idea. IMHO, this makes you even more qualified and your opinions even more credible since DO's tend to lean more towards preventive medicine rather than simply treating symptoms.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Wow! no idea why anyone's credentials and background have anything to do with anyone else on here. I don't think anyone is looking to be hired....opinions are just that. 

As to the point that allergy etc. is still an allergy, and that a small amount would still make a dog react, I agree of course that that is true. But my question on this is, could this be caused by strongly overdosing tiny puppies, bombarding the system to be way more sensitive of future shots? Isn't it future shots and not the first shot that are the main problem? really weakening the immune system. 

I am encouraged by the early trials where dogs showed immunity. I hadn't seen that before. I had only heard Dr. Schultz say not possible. If the study showed immunity for the dogs after this trial, any dogs I obtained in the future would have the smaller dose followed quickly by titer testing. I am not worried about my current dogs as they won't be getting anymore shots anyway. It is a shame that they aren't working more on the smaller doses for rabies though. If I was in the US I would be very very concerned about repeating that vaccine all the time. 

I did vote on the yes after the holidays, but timing doesn't really matter to me that much. ;

Well done Crystal :aktion033::aktion033:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

First -- I don't understand either why someone's credentials are being questionned. Marisa is a doctor and a wonderful person with great knowledge and ideas. Many SMers have met her a number of times. 

Now to the topic we are discussing -- I think that we have to start somewhere to get the laws and dosages changed and research is the key. For Dr. Dodd (who is highly respected) to be willing to take on this research is wonderful. As we all know, this might not lead to the answers we want, or it may lead to needing additional studies and research, but it is a start. And I fully intend to contribute to funding it.

I do believe that it might be easier for many people to donate after the 1st of the year, but, we could certainly start the donation fund immediately and let it continue. It might take a few months to get to the $5,500 required to start the study.

This is a great starting point and I want to personally thank Crystal for working so diligently on this.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I think it does matter, because DOs and MDs have different philosophies. Also, MDs and DVMs take more of a science-based, evidence-based approach and DOs use some therapies which haven't been scientifically proven.

I do have respect for the training DOs have, I could just tell by some of Marisa's posts that her philosophy was different from an MD.

Also, I don't agree that only holistic physicians take a preventive approach. It's certainly not true with my team of physicians. I'm in the process of losing weight because they are after me about it. They closely watch my cholesterol levels so I can go on a stricter diet and exercise more when they go up. Tip: don't ever have your cholesterol after Christmas. When doing histories, they ask about every thing from stress levels to my diet. Because I'm taking immunoglobulin, my Immunologist has a nurse do a detailed questionnaire every month to see if ANYTHING has changed regarding my health.


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## lydiatug (Feb 21, 2012)

I think the studies presented speak for themselves, and any additional information presented is helpful, regardless of anyones qualifications or lack thereof (I also found the questioning of Marissa's credentials rude and unecessary). 

I am interested in any and all credible information we can get our hands on and fully support getting this ball rolling. Thank you Crystal!

I also agree that there are probably a lot of other "small" dog forums and organizations out there that might be supportive as well. Bayleigh's allergy specialist DVM has also made comments that she doesn't understand "one size vaccines fit all".


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

silverhaven said:


> As to the point that allergy etc. is still an allergy, and that a small amount would still make a dog react, I agree of course that that is true. But my question on this is, could this be caused by strongly overdosing tiny puppies, bombarding the system to be way more sensitive of future shots? Isn't it future shots and not the first shot that are the main problem? really weakening the immune system.
> :


Yes, it's true that over-vaccination is possible, and the current recommendations are based on what is currently known about vaccinology and immunology. Vaccinations are recommended in which the minimum dose of vaccine is given which will stimulate the immune system and not cause over-vaccination issues. I'm not exactly certain what your question is regarding puppies, but with puppies, it's difficult to know when maternal antibodies are gone. Also maternal antibodies can interfere with vaccines. This is one reason a series are given to puppies.

I have a genetic common variable immune deficiency and I'm reading a lot about immunology. The World Health Organization has a link to vaccine immunology here:

http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf

I recently read a very good article on veterinary vaccinology and immunology and if I can find it, I will post a link.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

vjw said:


> I think it does matter, because DOs and MDs have different philosophies. Also, MDs and DVMs take more of a science-based, evidence-based approach and DOs use some therapies which haven't been scientifically proven.




See this is why I don't understand your reluctance to research. The whole philosophy of the AHVMA Foundation is research. So they can give the proof that is needed. Back on Sept. 11th, they posted on their FB page "The AVMA recently ruled that veterinarians should be discouraged from recommending feeding of raw diets for public health safety issues. Many people are upset over this but in many ways it occurred because we lacked proper research to help the committee with its ruling. Let's do the research so we do know. I WANT TO KNOW!" So then you would have the science to back it up. 

The AHVM Foundation supports improved research and education into the area of holistic and integrative veterinary medicine. 


Mission
The Foundation was established to:

-support students interested in holistic veterinary medicine
-support research in holistic veterinary medicine
-acquaint the public with items that impact holistic veterinary medicine
-support those who want to contribute
https://www.facebook.com/AHVMAFoundation/info?ref=br_tf

On 9/24/13 AHVMA's Foundation FB page, Dr. Palmquist, DVM wrote:

AHVMA gave birth to the AHVM Foundation, which evolved from the Research committee at AHVMA. That is why our facebook page still has our old name (AHVMAFoundation), but in truth we are two separate organizations working to improve professional education and awareness of complementary and alternative veterinary medicine. AHVMA works with veterinarians and AHVMF funds research and education grants to improve the evidence available for the use of these therapies.

Together they both create a safe space for the exploration and advancement of integrative veterinary medicine.

Safety and Truth go hand in hand in creating competence. With those and Intelligence, ethical practice follows nicely and organically. We create a movement based on real, sustainable growth and measurable improvement. Outcomes Matter!

Those who would stop that process do not have the best interest of veterinary medicine in their minds or hearts. 

Richard Palmquist, DVM


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

vjw said:


> I think it does matter, because DOs and MDs have different philosophies. Also, MDs and DVMs take more of a science-based, evidence-based approach and DOs use some therapies which haven't been scientifically proven.
> 
> I do have respect for the training DOs have, I could just tell by some of Marisa's posts that her philosophy was different from an MD.
> 
> Also, I don't agree that only holistic physicians take a preventive approach. It's certainly not true with my team of physicians. I'm in the process of losing weight because they are after me about it. They closely watch my cholesterol levels so I can go on a stricter diet and exercise more when they go up. Tip: don't ever have your cholesterol after Christmas. When doing histories, they ask about every thing from stress levels to my diet. Because I'm taking immunoglobulin, my Immunologist has a nurse do a detailed questionnaire every month to see if ANYTHING has changed regarding my health.


I do not think it matters what my career or ANYONE's career is regarding this subject. We are a forum of Maltese PET owners for crying out loud. My philosophies on medicine are MINE, not because I'm and DO vs MD. I know DO/PhD's as well as MD/PhD's. You know very little about practicing DO's from what I can gather in your posts. Not all DO's practice osteopathy although we all learn it and there is research that backs many of the techniques. You probably were unaware of that too. Many (or most) of us practice "traditional, allopathic" medicine. Joy, I have never had to defend my DO physician status before this and I work with 90%MD's in my hospital. There are holistic/preventative minded physicians whatever the title and ones that aren't as much. I think there is overlap. There is good and bad in every field. Our own Gigi, who is an MD if that matters to you, feeds a raw diet, gives probiotics, and uses colloidal silver for her dogs. Does that mean that she is less of an MD? Medicine is comprehensive and not a perfect science.

I am sorry you have to deal with your CVID. As you've probably come across, immunology is a relatively new field in both human and vet medicine (compared to other fields). That's why there are so many unknowns. But, we have to start somewhere. No research study is perfect and the limitations are discussed in the research itself (for those who read research articles). 

If research is done, it needs to be repeated again and again to show that it is reproducible. Otherwise, there'd be people out there still thinking MMR vaccine causes autism. 


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I apologize to Marisa for being more direct and blunt than usual, but I did want to know the answer to my question. 

I've been on here long enough to know that most of the time a nicely worded comment doesn't get much attention. My patience is thin at the moment because I have a headache from taking a strong dose of itraconazole for a cryptococcal neoformans infection. The crypto is resistant to fluconazole that I was taking previously.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

Dual post.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

vjw said:


> I apologize to Marisa for being more direct and blunt than usual, but I did want to know the answer to my question.
> 
> I've been on here long enough to know that most of the time a nicely worded comment doesn't get much attention. My patience is thin at the moment because I have a headache from taking a strong dose of itraconazole for a cryptococcal neoformans infection. The crypto is resistant to fluconazole that I was taking previously.


*All the credentials questioning is making it very uncomfortable for other people to give their opinion, it is like, who are you to have an opinion? So the average pet owners - 99,5% of SM members - are not entitle to speak up and research? This has to stop.*
I'm sorry that you don't feel well and you might consider *staying away from posting if your patience is thin *and your disease is making you feel bad. Wish you a smooth treatment and speed recover.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

vjw said:


> I apologize to Marisa for being more direct and blunt than usual, but I did want to know the answer to my question.
> 
> I've been on here long enough to know that most of the time a nicely worded comment doesn't get much attention. My patience is thin at the moment because I have a headache from taking a strong dose of itraconazole for a cryptococcal neoformans infection. The crypto is resistant to fluconazole that I was taking previously.


Joy, I'm not trying to be mean. But just a thought. Perhaps a nicely worded comment that is being ignored is simply that people don't agree and don't want to get into a debate or bring negative attention. But it's hard for even those with almost saint like patience to ignore out right rude and offensive comments. And you won't get anywhere with anyone by making enemies. 

And I'm truly sorry you are having to deal with health issues but that is honestly not an excuse for rude and offensive behavior.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Dominic said:


> *All the credentials questioning is making it very uncomfortable for other people to give their opinion, it is like, who are you to have an opinion? So the average pet owners - 99,5% of SM members - are not entitle to speak up and research? This has to stop.*
> I'm sorry that you don't feel well and you might consider *staying away from posting if your patience is thin *and your disease is making you feel bad. Wish you a smooth treatment and speed recover.


Completely agree with this. All the comments about questioning credentials have been mean spirited. It does make it sound like if you don't have an MD, you better shut up. By that logic, Crystal shouldn't have initiated this study at all.

Fact is, she did. And something positive is happening. Whether or not it leads to something fruitful, it is moving in a good direction. It is a start. I don't see how and why anyone's MD status can change that.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> See this is why I don't understand your reluctance to research. The whole philosophy of the AHVMA Foundation is research. So they can give the proof that is needed. Back on Sept. 11th, they posted on their FB page "The AVMA recently ruled that veterinarians should be discouraged from recommending feeding of raw diets for public health safety issues. Many people are upset over this but in many ways it occurred because we lacked proper research to help the committee with its ruling. Let's do the research so we do know. I WANT TO KNOW!" So then you would have the science to back it up.
> 
> The AHVM Foundation supports improved research and education into the area of holistic and integrative veterinary medicine.
> 
> ...



There has been at least one study on raw diets and the conclusion was that they are not nutritionally adequate. Every faculty member who is in a veterinary nutrition program recommends against feeding raw.

Then there are the pathological risks to both humans and pets with raw. I've only known I have a serious immune deficiency disease for a year. I can't imagine what might have happened if I had fed raw. I take extra precautions with my dog's kibble and treats and I did this before I knew I had an immune deficiency. It blows my mind how many reports we have of cooked treats and food which are recalled because of some harmful microorganism or because pets are sickened by them.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Wow Marisa, I had no idea. IMHO, this makes you even more qualified and your opinions even more credible since DO's tend to lean more towards preventive medicine rather than simply treating symptoms.


I hope no one takes from my above comment that only people with a certain education is credible and opinions that are more important then others. Heck...I'm probably one of the most opinionated people I know and I have no fancy letters after my name. And I have often said that I'm not qualified or don't know. But I do have credible sources to go to and find out for the most part. :thumbsup:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

vjw said:


> There has been at least one study on raw diets and the conclusion was that they are not nutritionally adequate. Every faculty member who is in a veterinary nutrition program recommends against feeding raw.
> 
> Then there are the pathological risks to both humans and pets with raw. I've only known I have a serious immune deficiency disease for a year. I can't imagine what might have happened if I had fed raw. I take extra precautions with my dog's kibble and treats and I did this before I knew I had an immune deficiency. It blows my mind how many reports we have of cooked treats and food which are recalled because of some harmful microorganism or because pets are sickened by them.


I ask that one of the mods remove this post since it's completely off topic and I don't want to see this thread go off topic. I only mentioned raw food as an example of the AHVMA Foundation taking responsibility for lack of research and why they are so passionate about doing unbiased research.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Dominic said:


> *All the credentials questioning is making it very uncomfortable for other people to give their opinion, it is like, who are you to have an opinion? So the average pet owners - 99,5% of SM members - are not entitle to speak up and research? This has to stop.*
> I'm sorry that you don't feel well and you might consider *staying away from posting if your patience is thin *and your disease is making you feel bad. Wish you a smooth treatment and speed recover.



If you will look back at my comments that are strongly worded, it's where a dog's health is concerned, and whether it's canine nutrition or vaccination or behavior, I think we have to look at what experts at the top of their game are recommending. I usually at what board certified faculty at the world's top veterinary schools have to say. I won't apologize for that.

With this current study Crystal is wanting to do, it sounds like we already know the answer. If this is true, why put money into it?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> See this is why I don't understand your reluctance to research. The whole philosophy of the AHVMA Foundation is research. So they can give the proof that is needed. Back on Sept. 11th, they posted on their FB page "The AVMA recently ruled that veterinarians should be discouraged from recommending feeding of raw diets for public health safety issues. Many people are upset over this but in many ways it occurred because we lacked proper research to help the committee with its ruling. Let's do the research so we do know. I WANT TO KNOW!" So then you would have the science to back it up.
> 
> The AHVM Foundation supports improved research and education into the area of holistic and integrative veterinary medicine.
> 
> ...


What is Palmquist's reputation as a practioner and researcher?


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

vjw said:


> If you will look back at my comments that are strongly worded, it's where a dog's health is concerned, and whether it's canine nutrition or vaccination or behavior, I think we have to look at what experts at the top of their game are recommending. I usually at what board certified faculty at the world's top veterinary schools have to say. I won't apologize for that.
> 
> With this current study Crystal is wanting to do, it sounds like we already know the answer. If this is true, why put money into it?


And your POV has been duly noted, as well as your vote. Now, I don't know why you insist on coming back to this thread.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

vjw said:


> What is Palmquist's reputation as a practioner and researcher?


Joy, with all due respect, I would like to ask that you consider stepping out of this discussion at this point.
You have made it very clear that you are not interested in this research and do not want to contribute toward it.
This thread is continually being derailed by your posts, and I think it is important that we get back to the topic so that other can ask questions and express their opinions without intimidation.

In the short time that I have been here, I have seen so many little ones have health issues after vaccinations, both short term and very serious. Most recently, we have all been so worried for sweet Snowball. We have lost some members, who illnesses may or may not have been caused in some way or triggered by vaccinations. My heart still breaks for Biscuit, and Quincy, and wee Albert and their families. There, but for the grace of God, go any one of us. 
Those of us who love our little dogs deeply would do anything to try to find a way to be able to vaccinate them more safely. Most of us are not scientists, or doctors, or medical office secretaries, we are just pet owners. But some of us are thrilled by the glimmer of hope that this study provides that maybe a lesser dose of vaccine will be effective enough, and maybe, just maybe, this will help reduce some of the reactions. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but at least we are starting somewhere. It saddens me that someone would try to crush our hope and would argue against something that could possibly help keep our dogs safer.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Onward!
Crystal, what do you think of the idea of forming a committee of members interested in brainstorming about getting the word out about this study and fundraising? 
It seems that we have a small window before the busy holiday season really hits us. Maybe some of us could start doing some preliminary work to identify groups and people to contact, and research methods of fundraising to come up with a gameplan. Divide and conquer!
I personally don't know anything about internet fundraising, but my best friend is Google, and there must be info out there!


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

I love this idea. When Tucker got his annual vaccinations this summer he had a reaction afterward. He was warm and trembling and panting heavily and at one point didn't really want to interact at all. Our regular vet was closed and the emergency vet told me not to bring him in unless he started vomiting. I was really scared because I could tell he was in pain and not being himself. It did pass, but I am worried about his next set. I would rather do titers but I can not legally license him like that.  

I am though, mostly concerned with the rabies vaccine, that is the main one I have heard dogs having reactions to. 

Even though this isn't rabies, I still think it is a step in the right direction. I would love to donate to the cause but at this moment we just do not have the funds.


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## Kathy Tobacco (Oct 23, 2013)

I think this is a great idea. Little dogs get every single booster on time because they go to the groomer so they sometimes get the worse deal. I have a love/hate relationship with vaccinations. My daughter had a terrible reaction to the old pertussis vaccine (which was brutal and no longer used) and I worry so much that last round of vaccines is what killed my dog Paris a couple of weeks ago. She got everything at once and 3 weeks later she fell ill with Evan Syndrome an auto immune disorder. (People get it too.) No one knows what triggers Evans and it is thought that each case might have a unique trigger. She tested negative for any tick born illnesses too. I know one thing, if I could go back in time not one thing would have been done to that dog in the weeks prior to her falling ill- not one single thing. I know this is anecdotal but it seems like injecting a 5lb dog with a multitude of different vaccines at 10 isn't such a great idea. I am going to learn how to groom my dogs so they don't have to have so many vaccines as they age. I think it is too much. This is just my opinion and I hope I don't offend anyone. I love our vet and I don't blame him a bit. I just don't trust all the protocols on such tiny dogs especially as they age. I hope I didn't offend anyone or say the wrong thing. I miss my dog and feel cheated out of those next 5 to 7 years I thought we would have. She was so healthy right up till the Evans.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

shellbeme said:


> I love this idea. When Tucker got his annual vaccinations this summer he had a reaction afterward. He was warm and trembling and panting heavily and at one point didn't really want to interact at all. Our regular vet was closed and the emergency vet told me not to bring him in unless he started vomiting. I was really scared because I could tell he was in pain and not being himself. It did pass, but I am worried about his next set. I would rather do titers but I can not legally license him like that.
> 
> I am though, mostly concerned with the rabies vaccine, that is the main one I have heard dogs having reactions to.
> 
> Even though this isn't rabies, I still think it is a step in the right direction. I would love to donate to the cause but at this moment we just do not have the funds.


Shelly, some vets. are now giving a small dose of dexamethasone with canine vaccines to reduce the side effects. Has your vet. tried this? Karli was given dex with her last set of vaccinations and it did help. I could tell she didn't feel as well as she normally does, but there was no shaking.

As far as feeling bad, even my horses feel badly after their vaccines. It's so sad to see them with droopy heads. This is when they get a 2 gram dose of the vaccines that a dog would get a one gram dose of.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Kathy Tobacco said:


> I think this is a great idea. Little dogs get every single booster on time because they go to the groomer so they sometimes get the worse deal. I have a love/hate relationship with vaccinations. My daughter had a terrible reaction to the old pertussis vaccine (which was brutal and no longer used) and I worry so much that last round of vaccines is what killed my dog Paris a couple of weeks ago. She got everything at once and 3 weeks later she fell ill with Evan Syndrome an auto immune disorder. (People get it too.) No one knows what triggers Evans and it is thought that each case might have a unique trigger. She tested negative for any tick born illnesses too. I know one thing, if I could go back in time not one thing would have been done to that dog in the weeks prior to her falling ill- not one single thing. I know this is anecdotal but it seems like injecting a 5lb dog with a multitude of different vaccines at 10 isn't such a great idea. I am going to learn how to groom my dogs so they don't have to have so many vaccines as they age. I think it is too much. This is just my opinion and I hope I don't offend anyone. I love our vet and I don't blame him a bit. I just don't trust all the protocols on such tiny dogs especially as they age. I hope I didn't offend anyone or say the wrong thing. I miss my dog and feel cheated out of those next 5 to 7 years I thought we would have. She was so healthy right up till the Evans.


I'm sorry for the loss of your dog Kathy. I was curious about Evans Syndrome, so I looked up an article:

Overcoming the diagnostic and therapeutic challenges of canine immune-mediated thrombocytopenia - Veterinary Medicine


Is this what your dog had? If so, read the info. under the History and Physical Exam section. If I were you I think I would ask the vet. if he reported this as a "possible" vaccine adverse reaction to the vaccine manufacturer. If not, ask him if you can. At this point, there's probably no way to be exactly sure what happened, but I think reporting it just as you mentioned here would be a good idea.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

Kathleen said:


> Joy, with all due respect, I would like to ask that you consider stepping out of this discussion at this point.
> You have made it very clear that you are not interested in this research and do not want to contribute toward it.
> This thread is continually being derailed by your posts, and I think it is important that we get back to the topic so that other can ask questions and express their opinions without intimidation.
> 
> ...


Extremely well stated! We are here as pet owners doing what we can for our dear fluffs. research is never "done" until it is reproduced over and over and over again to show consistent results with multiple variables. Just because someone publishes a study, doesn't mean others shouldn't pursue a similar subject. In human research, there can be 10's to100's of similar studies done to reach a conclusion before a real clinical change is made. There's even research looking at all the research (called meta-analysis). We are still far from the big goal, but we have to take small steps to get there!

Like I mentioned before, if we stopped at just one researcher's conclusion, we'd all still think that autism was caused by MMR vaccine. No one was able to reproduce his findings in subsequent studies and the study and results were pulled. 

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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

hoaloha said:


> Like I mentioned before, if we stopped at just one researcher's conclusion, we'd all still think that autism was caused by MMR vaccine. No one was able to reproduce his findings in subsequent studies and the study and results were pulled.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Marisa, this myth is still being perpetuated by the likes of Mercola.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I would like to remind everyone that the purpose of this thread is to gauge the interest in undertaking fundraising for a low-dose vaccination research study. The purpose is not to hypothesize on whether or not it will prevent reactions or to what to extent it will do so - that is to be left up to the researchers.

The purpose of this thread is also not to question credentials, background, motivation, or to disrespect the opinions of others. I am asking for your cooperation in getting this discussion back on track.

Additional posts that hijack this thread or take it in a different direction may be deleted, so please help keep this on track. Thanks! 

Now, we were talking about funding research . . .


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

So I heard back from Dr. Palmquist concerning Jackie's questions. I don't know if Dr. Dodds will also reply. We're doing group emails so everyone is in the loop and if someone has more to add, they do so.

Just a reminder, Jackie's post was:

"I'm not trying to be discouraging, but I do want to be [email protected] sure of something before I start asking myself and other people to finance it. In addition, my experience with Soda's life-threatening reaction would not be changed by reducing the amount because a single drop of adjuvant would kill him. To be clear, all this study will do is say yes or no to an immunizing titer with a smaller dose, correct? Assuming this lower dose is immunizing, then what will be done to find out if the lower dose decreases diseases that we suspect are triggered by the vaccine? My thoughts are, if all it takes is 1 drop to stimulate the immune system for a vaccine reactions, how will we find out how much it takes to trigger other diseases? I think I grasp what the study is doing....but I'm not sure of the implications of the information gathered..." 

This is the reply from Dr. Palmquist

Some patients are hypersensitive and any amount of vaccine can trigger them. It is a separate question, not answerable by this study as to if this will decrease vaccine reactions. Certainly it seems to, but this would not mean that reduced vaccine doses for small dogs would prevent adverse effects entirely. 

Science is tricky. It usually is a series of studies. First, can we reduce the dose. Then does vaccine dose relate to adverse effects. That would be a much larger study. 

Rick Palmquist, DVM

Here's a thought that Maggie brought up, since there is enough interest in starting this year vs after the holidays. We were wondering if perhaps it would be a good idea to have the foundation put the fundraising link on their site before the end of the year? This way those that would like to have a year end tax deduction could have it? And run the drive say from November 15 to the end of May? Then we as a group could concentrate on various drives and fund raisers after the first of the year? 

The response so far from Dr. Palmquist is that we should be able to do that. Dr. Scanlan is the one that oversees the financial aspects so unless there is a reason we cannot divide it between 2 calender years, if this is acceptable to everyone, I think this would be a great way to handle the timing. Because as a few have mentioned, the holidays are usually a better time for donations. Especially for those outside of SM who have not just participated in the rescue raffle. Thoughts??


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Crystal -- as far as setting up the fund to raise the money, what you are saying is what I was also suggesting. I think we should start as soon as possible to raise funds, and understand that many may not be able to donate until after the New Year.

Are we also thinking of posting on FB? What about other small dog forums like Yorkie Talk and the Chihuahua forum?


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Crystal -- as far as setting up the fund to raise the money, what you are saying is what I was also suggesting. I think we should start as soon as possible to raise funds, and understand that many may not be able to donate until after the New Year.
> 
> Are we also thinking of posting on FB? What about other small dog forums like Yorkie Talk and the Chihuahua forum?


Oh I do remember you suggesting that. I wasn't sure we could with the way the AHVMA Foundation does their grants so I wanted to make sure we could divide it between the 2 years.

And yes! I think we need to take this to various FB groups and other forums as well as all the AKC toy breed parent clubs. Maybe what we need to do is have people state other groups that they are involved in that they would be willing to take this to or at least make the introduction for someone else to then address the group.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Crystal -- as far as setting up the fund to raise the money, what you are saying is what I was also suggesting. I think we should start as soon as possible to raise funds, and understand that many may not be able to donate until after the New Year.
> 
> Are we also thinking of posting on FB? What about other small dog forums like Yorkie Talk and the Chihuahua forum?


I just hope PayPal will be a way to donate. In the past, I was not able to donate through at least one of the other services (mentioned in another post earlier on)

And, because someone recently tried to steal our identity, I only feel comfortable using Paypal. 

I can send checks ... but, I think PayPal is faster and more convenient.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

:tender:This is just in relation to the poll results. I think it is Yung I need to thank for changing my vote from not supporting ... to supporting the research. I assume it was Yung ... so, thank you very much!:tender:


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

vjw said:


> I apologize to Marisa for being more direct and blunt than usual, but I did want to know the answer to my question.
> 
> I've been on here long enough to know that most of the time a nicely worded comment doesn't get much attention. My patience is thin at the moment because I have a headache from taking a strong dose of itraconazole for a cryptococcal neoformans infection. The crypto is resistant to fluconazole that I was taking previously.


*I'm sorry to hear that your sick, but if your patience is thin then maybe you should refrain from posting. *



vjw said:


> There has been at least one study on raw diets and the conclusion was that they are not nutritionally adequate. Every faculty member who is in a veterinary nutrition program recommends against feeding raw.
> 
> Then there are the pathological risks to both humans and pets with raw. I've only known I have a serious immune deficiency disease for a year. I can't imagine what might have happened if I had fed raw. I take extra precautions with my dog's kibble and treats and I did this before I knew I had an immune deficiency. It blows my mind how many reports we have of cooked treats and food which are recalled because of some harmful microorganism or because pets are sickened by them.


*
Here we go again!!!
* :beating a dead hors

*Now lets get back to topic.* 

Crystal thank you again for doing all you have done. I will most definitely be donating but unfortunately for me i can't until after the holidays.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

I think it's a great idea to start now and keep doing it till May.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Crystal - that was what I was asking too in an earlier post. If we were able to get some donations now, could they roll over to the delayed study. Glad you were able to find out that could work. It would be best of both worlds and give everyone time to work on raising money for it. Thanks!


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Kathleen said:


> Joy, with all due respect, I would like to ask that you consider stepping out of this discussion at this point.
> You have made it very clear that you are not interested in this research and do not want to contribute toward it.
> This thread is continually being derailed by your posts, and I think it is important that we get back to the topic so that other can ask questions and express their opinions without intimidation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your post, Kathleen.

I, too, think the research is so important. I am not a scientist or veterinarian. I am just one of the pet owners who has, and continues to go through and question, how far back Snowball's immune system might have been damaged by vaccinations. My gut feeling has always told me the rabies vaccination was too much for him from the very beginning ... and, at least by the second vaccination ... the next year following the first one. But, again ... I am not the scientists or doctors who are doing the research to prove any of this one way or the other.

All that I know is that Snowball will no longer be receiving anymore vaccines. But, I intend to support research ... so that, hopefully, with time, vaccines, if necessary, will be a lot safer than so many of them seem to be now.

Next Friday Snowball is having lab work done before his scheduled dental cleaning the following Monday. Since Snowball's rabies vaccination last month, his weight has gone down (I know I mentioned this before) and, of course, this concerns me. And, his eyes look tired to me. I asked a friend how his eyes looked to her ... and, she said they looked kind of "tired", too. I just pray all of this is not the longer term effects of the adverse reactions to the rabies vaccination. So, again, it seems as though only with research, and at some point, pet owners will be able to demand safer and proper dosage vaccines for our beloved fluffs.

Kathleen, thank you for remembering Snowball. He is why I am here. I think one has to go through experiencing something bad ... to have empathy and understand why something like Dr. Dodd's research is so important. I wish for every fluff baby the happiest and healthiest life.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Thank you for your post, Kathleen.
> 
> I, too, think the research is so important. I am not a scientist or veterinarian. I am just one of the pet owners who has, and continues to go through and question, how far back Snowball's immune system might have been damaged by vaccinations. My gut feeling has always told me the rabies vaccination was too much for him from the very beginning ... and, at least by the second vaccination ... the next year following the first one. But, again ... I am not the scientists or doctors who are doing the research to prove any of this one way or the other.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:
I too hate the vaccines we are obligated to administer. You all know that Lisi has had 3 severe reactions---2 of which could have snuffed out her little light, but for God's grace & quick action. She is due for her next rabies in Nov. and I am making a special trip to Greece to arrange her paper work so she can travel internationally. I am obligated to be less than honest to preserve her life, and against all my moral/ethical beliefs. But I will not put her in harm's way at any costs. Kitzel will continue to get his shots as required as so far he has not had any life-altering situations (although I did travel to the US last summer to get a TF1 rabies shot for him. I will do it again next summer.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Thank you for your post, Kathleen.
> 
> I, too, think the research is so important. I am not a scientist or veterinarian. I am just one of the pet owners who has, and continues to go through and question, how far back Snowball's immune system might have been damaged by vaccinations. My gut feeling has always told me the rabies vaccination was too much for him from the very beginning ... and, at least by the second vaccination ... the next year following the first one. But, again ... I am not the scientists or doctors who are doing the research to prove any of this one way or the other.
> 
> ...





edelweiss said:


> :goodpost:
> I too hate the vaccines we are obligated to administer. You all know that Lisi has had 3 severe reactions---2 of which could have snuffed out her little light, but for God's grace & quick action. She is due for her next rabies in Nov. and I am making a special trip to Greece to arrange her paper work so she can travel internationally. I am obligated to be less than honest to preserve her life, and against all my moral/ethical beliefs. But I will not put her in harm's way at any costs. Kitzel will continue to get his shots as required as so far he has not had any life-altering situations (although I did travel to the US last summer to get a TF1 rabies shot for him. I will do it again next summer.


Sandi, Snowball had the Merial TF3. So, for Snowball, even the TF3 didn't help him from having an adverse reaction. 

As far as precious Lisi ... I hope when you visit Greece to arrange her paper work, that she will be given a waiver for international travel. Why would they not grant Lisi a waiver? However, if she is not granted a waiver, then in my eyes, I do not think you are doing anything morally/ethically wrong. I look at it that as you being Lisi's mom, you are doing everything possible to protect her life.

I blame the pharmaceutical companies for pushing certain vaccines (like the rabies, parvo, canine flu vaccines) ... with a lack of ethics and honest moral values. My personal opinion. The more vaccines our beloved fluffs are forced to legally endure ... the more money for pharmaceutical companies. Pure greed at the expense of our fluffs health.

So, in order to make changes to protect our fluffs as much as we possibly are able to do ... and, because we love them so much ... we will pay for the research in order to, hopefully, in the end, prove that our pets are being overdosed/and/or are receiving way too many unnecessary vaccines. 

Morally and ethically, we are the ones who are making every effort to do the right thing in protecting the lives of our fluffs.


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

I am in for the support of this research. Thanks for bringing it up, Crystal


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

I would like to know what methodology they would propose. We want vaccinations to be effective against the disease as well as not causing adverse reactions. How do they propose to know if a smaller amount of vaccine is effective? I believe that the usual method for testing an animal vaccine has been, unfortunately, to intentionally expose the vaccinated animals to the disease and see if they get it. I'm assuming that that would not be done with "volunteered" pet puppies. Would they just do titers? 

But what if the volunteered puppies did get sick--would the study include funds to nurse them through the disease?


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

mss said:


> I would like to know what methodology they would propose. We want vaccinations to be effective against the disease as well as not causing adverse reactions. How do they propose to know if a smaller amount of vaccine is effective? I believe that the usual method for testing an animal vaccine has been, unfortunately, to intentionally expose the vaccinated animals to the disease and see if they get it. I'm assuming that that would not be done with "volunteered" pet puppies. Would they just do titers?
> 
> But what if the volunteered puppies did get sick--would the study include funds to nurse them through the disease?


It's a simple study and involves vaccinating and taking blood tests before and after vaccinating. They will do a pilot involving 20 puppies. There is recognized titer tests for distemper and parvo so they will know if the puppies are protected. They can add more dogs later and extend the pilot as necessary. 

The number one rule for any study done through the AHVMA Foundation is that they will do no study that could potentially cause harm to an animal. Unlike studies done through pharmaceutical companies.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Crystal -- if you need help with contacting other groups and organizations, just let me know and I will be happy to help.

And if you need assistance in setting up a Chip-In Fund via PayPal, I'm happy to help with that too.

I think this is an important endeavor and a good starting point.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

For everyone asking about a "chip in" or something similar, we will be making contributions directly to the AHVMA Foundation which is a well-established 501(c)3 charitable organization. That way, the contributions may be tax deductible (disclaimer - consult your tax advisor  ). The Foundation (in alignment with its stated purpose of research and education) will award the grant to the researcher once the funds are raised. 

I believe Crystal is asking the Foundation if we they are set up to accept PayPal.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

I love the idea of starting in November and carrying it through to May if that is possible.

I will definitely post on small dog groups that i belong to and on my FB wall. My question is will there be a link and statement that we can post so those members on the groups and on our FB walls can read about the study and about donating to the study or are we wording it our self? Me personally i would like a worded statement that i can post and not have to write it,as i am not one that writes well.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

mysugarbears said:


> I love the idea of starting in November and carrying it through to May if that is possible.
> 
> I will definitely post on small dog groups that i belong to and on my FB wall. My question is will there be a link and statement that we can post so those members on the groups and on our FB walls can read about the study and about donating to the study or are we wording it our self? Me personally i would like a worded statement that i can post and not have to write it,as i am not one that writes well.


Yes there will be a link and a brief description of the proposed study. 


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Yes there will be a link and a brief description of the proposed study.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Thank you so much, i was going to find someone to write it for me if we had to word it ourselves. You just made my night!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Crystal -- if you need help with contacting other groups and organizations, just let me know and I will be happy to help.
> 
> And if you need assistance in setting up a Chip-In Fund via PayPal, I'm happy to help with that too.
> 
> I think this is an important endeavor and a good starting point.


You're my go to person. With everything you've organized and run for SM, makes you an expert. 


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

pammy4501 said:


> I'm really glad we are addressing this. There are a few questions that need to be answered, and I can't think of any that haven't already been asked here regarding the study itself. But as far fundraising, have we considered partnering with any other toy dog groups? I know that the Yorkie people share the same concerns that we do, and how about the AMA? The health committee chairs are Tonia Holibaugh and Vicki Fierheller. But our own TamiZami is on the health committee. I can contact her and see if she can propose this to gage interest on the part the AMA.
> 
> I don't know that we even need to have a typical fundraiser with gifts etc. It would be nice to have a fundraising page as I did for Lola. We could possible use "Chip In" and "Go Fund Me." People can share the widgets on FB and where ever. The more web pages that you can get it attached to, the more donations you will garner.


:goodpost: Thanks, Pam!:wub:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Sorry I am late in my response to this very important endeavor..first of all, thank you so much dear Crystal :aktion033::aktion033: for spearheading this..you are amazing, girl!:wub: I do support the study and think it is needed ...as you said, we have to start somewhere...in the past few years, I have seen many toy dogs have vaccine reactions..with our Maltese here on SM, it is frightfully common...2 out of my 3 (4-5 lb range) have had serious vaccine issues...I never thought I would be afraid to vaccinate again, but I am, and I will not do it...my own vet told me when she vaccinated a chi, it died right there on the table!:crying:I definitely believe this needs to be addressed and I am so happy Dr. Dodds will do this study...like Debbie though, I need a link to post in my other dog group...getting the word out is imperative to the success of this study...thanks to all of you who passionately love our Maltese...:wub:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Crystal -- if you need help with contacting other groups and organizations, just let me know and I will be happy to help.
> 
> And if you need assistance in setting up a Chip-In Fund via PayPal, I'm happy to help with that too.
> 
> I think this is an important endeavor and a good starting point.





Crystal&Zoe said:


> You're my go to person. With everything you've organized and run for SM, makes you an expert.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Crystal is right, Lynn.:tender:

Sometimes I feel helpless in helping more. For one thing, I am not the best writer at all these days.:mellow:

However, Jan Rasmusen did respond to my thread on Facebook when Snowball had the adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine ... and, asked how she could help. I would be happy to phone her and talk to her in regards to helping us here.

I can't think of anyone better (except for Lynn) to help us reach as many pet owners as possible.

Lynn, Crystal, Marisa, Maggie ... maybe you would feel more comfortable if you speak with Jan instead? It's fine with me ... but, I do feel as though we should reach out for her help.

Below are just many of the links on her FB page. You will see that she has already been on top of a lot of what we are making an effort to accomplish here, right?

In regard to Snowball ... I honestly worry that some here might think I should not keep on bringing up Snowball in regard to his adverse reaction to the rabies vaccination. (although if you look at the thread Crystal started for me during our emergency visits that day, you will see the huge response and support SM members gave to my Snowball and us) 

Anyways ... after watching Jan's video below again this morning, it does provide so much information. The FIRST adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine IS vomiting ... which Snowball experienced. And, his behavior change after that [email protected]$% vaccination has set us back big time. We had come so far with him.

In addition, when Marcia Keene was here with us yesterday ... Snowball was not himself at all. He was aggressive toward her (he reacted this way in the reception area at Leesburg Vet RIGHT after the shot) and it took her quite a while to calm him down ... this is so not him, especially with her. (Marcia's pictures with Snowball are on another thread) And then, after he calmed down ... he just sat there as though he was in another world. His lower jaw started quivering, big time. He finally responded to me ... but, both Marcia and I know that this was NOT normal for him. In addition, his eyes still often look tired since the rabies vaccination. Now, I can't help but worry that this are later problems showing up due to the adverse reaction to the rabies vaccination. (you can learn about this in Jan's video below)

I apologize for my posts being so long ... it's just that I guess I am hoping that more people out there, who may not even be SM members yet, will feel comfortable sharing their stories, feel as though they are being heard, and, THEN get on board ... to help all Crystal's hard work, in order to help us get this project on the road and receive donations to help Dr. Dodd move forward with her research.

Here are two of Jan's links ...


Rabies Vaccination: Side Effects and Help | Truth4Dogs

Vaccination | Truth4Dogs


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Marie -- I'm sooooooooooooo sad that Snowball is still having problems this long after the rabies shot. 

I am also friends with Jan and will be happy to reach out to her for her support and to let her know that we will try to fund this study. Jan is one of many on my list.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Forget to mention -- but once we have the fundraiser organized, I will try to get the TV stations involved. Since Comcast now owns NBC, this is the logical place for me to start working on letting the people know about the research. I think I can probably get it picked up by many of the stations across the U.S.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Marie -- I'm sooooooooooooo sad that Snowball is still having problems this long after the rabies shot.
> 
> I am also friends with Jan and will be happy to reach out to her for her support and to let her know that we will try to fund this study. Jan is one of many on my list.


Thank you so much, Lynn. :smootch: 





Lacie's Mom said:


> Forget to mention -- but once we have the fundraiser organized, I will try to get the TV stations involved. Since Comcast now owns NBC, this is the logical place for me to start working on letting the people know about the research. I think I can probably get it picked up by many of the stations across the U.S.



YES!! I was thinking you might have clout to help do this! Thank you, again, Lynn!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

What we are working on now is having Dr. Dodds write up a brief synopsis of the study that _*anyone*_ can share along with the link to the AHVMF's Donation Page. Donations will be restricted to the Small Breed Vaccine Study. And of course all donations will be tax deductible. We are even hoping for a cute graphic as well. We have something in the works...if the person who is doing this has the time to get it ready in time. I didn't give her much notice. :blush: And yes, the Foundation does take PayPal for those who asked. :thumbsup: I think it will be beneficial to start a completely new thread once everything is in place to start the donations so everyone will be able to see in the very first thread the summary of the study by Dr. Dodds, the link and the graphic to be shared _*anywhere anyone can. *_


And Lynn that would be awesome to get exposure like that!! You go girl!! :Girl power: I don't think I've ever used that emoticon before. lol


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

And yes, Marie. I know all of Jan's work. I have always planned on asking if we could share this on her site as well. :thumbsup: It's a great idea!


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

I'm in. Just voted.

I remember my Lola's adverse reaction to the rabies shot. I'm beginning to hate this vaccine as much as GME. Poor baby even had mushy poo for days after taking Interceptor for heart worm prevention. Lola died at the age of 5 on her way to being diagnosed with GME. Any connection to the rabies shot? I'd take my chances and bet my life on it. Do I have any proof? No. You can't tell me this vaccination doesn't affect the immune system. 

This is for all of us. Peace everyone! 
Xoxoxoxoxoxoxooxoxoxoxooxoxoxoxo

Steppenwolf - It's Never Too Late - YouTube


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

KAG said:


> I'm in. Just voted.
> 
> I remember my Lola's adverse reaction to the rabies shot. I'm beginning to hate this vaccine as much as GME. Poor baby even had mushy poo for days after taking Interceptor for heart worm prevention. Lola died at the age of 5 on her way to being diagnosed with GME. Any connection to the rabies shot? I'd take my chances and bet my life on it. Do I have any proof? No. You can't tell me this vaccination doesn't affect the immune system.
> 
> ...


There you are!! Love your musical messages my friend. :smootch:


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Lots of fundraisers lately seem to be using texting for donations.
You text a word to a number for a set donation amount, usually a small amount, such as $10.
This is an easy quick way for people to donate immediately, rather than having to log on to a site and enter account info. Like an "impulse" donation because it is quick and easy. 
Does anyone have any experience with this? I wonder if there is a way for the AHVMA to set something like this up, in addition to other means of donating?


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Kathleen said:


> Lots of fundraisers lately seem to be using texting for donations.
> You text a word to a number for a set donation amount, usually a small amount, such as $10.
> This is an easy quick way for people to donate immediately, rather than having to log on to a site and enter account info. Like an "impulse" donation because it is quick and easy.
> Does anyone have any experience with this? I wonder if there is a way for the AHVMA to set something like this up, in addition to other means of donating?


I have no idea if the Foundation already has something like this set up or not. But I'll check into it. Anything to make donating easier. :thumbsup: Although they don't need to log onto the site. The link that will be provided will take them right to it and then it's just a matter of putting in the dollar amount and one click.


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## preciouspups (Apr 13, 2008)

I am in support of this study. In may be a small step in the right direction but any step is better than none. I will contribute to the study.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Dr. Jean Dodds is the one who came up with the proposed study and wrote the grant. She will be the one to do the study and is volunteering her time. They will not begin the research until all of the funds for the initial phase of the study have been generated, and will be relying solely on third-party donations.
> 
> Thanks everyone!!!




Crystal, I wanted to clarify something. When you say Dr. Dodds wrote the grant, do you mean AVHMA is applying for a grant elsewhere (additional to SM fundraising)?


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

eiksaa said:


> Crystal, I wanted to clarify something. When you say Dr. Dodds wrote the grant, do you mean AVHMA is applying for a grant elsewhere (additional to SM fundraising)?


What AHVMA has told Crystal and me is that the grant will be funded through their Foundation once designated funds are raised through the Foundation. They are not applying for funds elsewhere, at least not for the initial study. Dr. Dodds has written the grant application to be awarded through AHVMA Foundation.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Sorry but I am still confused. Does this mean -

1. The initial study is funded by third party donations (what we raise) and then the grant will get funded for further studies?

Or, 2. This grant allows Dr. Dodds to use the 5.5k we raise for AVHMA for this particular study?


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

eiksaa said:


> Sorry but I am still confused. Does this mean -
> 
> 1. The initial study is funded by third party donations (what we raise) and then the grant will get funded for further studies?
> 
> Or, 2. This grant allows Dr. Dodds to use the 5.5k we raise for AVHMA for this particular study?


1. The initial study will be funded by third party donations to AHVMA Foundation; next step funding has not been determined.

And 2. The grant application allows Dr. Dodds to use the funds we raise. 

Dr. Dodds is writing a grant application to the AHVMA Foundation for the initial study; grant is requesting $5500 from the AHVMA Foundation. We (and others) will be donating to AHVMA Foundation. The Foundation will fund the grant after the $5500 has been raised. 

Does this help explain it?


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

maggieh said:


> 1. The initial study will be funded by third party donations to AHVMA Foundation; next step funding has not been determined.
> 
> And 2. The grant application allows Dr. Dodds to use the funds we raise.
> 
> ...


Yes, it does. Thanks, Maggie!


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## K9Author (May 3, 2007)

*Jean Dodds vaccination study*

Hi. I have talked with Jean Dodds and said I would help with the study any way I can. I'll also post it on my two vaccination blogs: truth4dogs.com and truth4pets.org I'm waiting to get her suggestions. In the meantime, if there's anything I can do, contact me at www.dogs4dogs.com/contact 

I've written a Q & A to determine when dogs need vaccinating, if anyone is interested. Questions to Ask | Truth4Pets

I'm so exciting this study will finally be done!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

K9Author said:


> Hi. I have talked with Jean Dodds and said I would help with the study any way I can. I'll also post it on my two vaccination blogs: truth4dogs.com and truth4pets.org I'm waiting to get her suggestions. In the meantime, if there's anything I can do, contact me at www.dogs4dogs.com/contact
> 
> I've written a Q & A to determine when dogs need vaccinating, if anyone is interested. Questions to Ask | Truth4Pets
> 
> I'm so exciting this study will finally be done!


Thank you Jan!! Right now we have a couple of things in the works and really hoping all will be in place to go live on the AHVMA's site for Nov. 1st. Fingers crossed!! rayer: If we don't have the graphic ready, wondering if by any chance it would be ok to use the image off your site of the Great Dane and Chi?


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

WooHoo!! Yung has graciously agreed and created a special sub-forum for us to all share our own experiences with vaccine reactions. Thank you Yung!! We thought providing a link to that section of the forum on the AHVMA's donation page would be beneficial in helping to educate people as to why this study is so important as well as why we are needing people to help fund the study by donations. When sharing an experience your fluff has had, start a new thread. Each story/experience should have it's own thread. And feel free to add photos of your baby that suffered the experience. They don't need to be photos of your baby while they were suffering. But sometimes it helps to make it more real when you see the actual baby who has or is now dealing with issues stemming from a vaccine reaction.

Still working out some more details and really hoping we can start on Nov. 1st!!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> WooHoo!! Yung has graciously agreed and created a special sub-forum for us to all share our own experiences with vaccine reactions. Thank you Yung!! We thought providing a link to that section of the forum on the AHVMA's donation page would be beneficial in helping to educate people as to why this study is so important as well as why we are needing people to help fund the study by donations. When sharing an experience your fluff has had, start a new thread. Each story/experience should have it's own thread. And feel free to add photos of your baby that suffered the experience. They don't need to be photos of your baby while they were suffering. But sometimes it helps to make it more real when you see the actual baby who has or is now dealing with issues stemming from a vaccine reaction.
> 
> Still working out some more details and really hoping we can start on Nov. 1st!!


Sheesh....would have been helpful if I had told you where it was.

Vaccination Stories - Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

K9Author said:


> Hi. I have talked with Jean Dodds and said I would help with the study any way I can. I'll also post it on my two vaccination blogs: truth4dogs.com and truth4pets.org I'm waiting to get her suggestions. In the meantime, if there's anything I can do, contact me at www.dogs4dogs.com/contact
> 
> I've written a Q & A to determine when dogs need vaccinating, if anyone is interested. Questions to Ask | Truth4Pets
> 
> I'm so exciting this study will finally be done!


Jan - if it's OK with you, I'd like to move this post into the vaccination thread. Let me know if that's OK.

And, thank you!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Sorry for the delay for the kick off for fund raising. One of the volunteer veterinarians for the AHMVF is tweaking their site so we can start. Hopefully tomorrow we will have the link and everything will be in place to start to spread the word and to raise the funds needed. 

In the meantime, I thought this quote was appropriate. We need research to know the truth.

_*“The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.” 

― Winston Churchill*_


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks for keeping us posted, Crystal. Hopefully it will be easier to create and more functional than the affordable care act site. :w00t::thumbsup:


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