# Raw Food Diet?



## nicolen412

Hi all, 

I was wondering if anyone here has every heard/tried/considered the BARF diet which is basically based on raw food? something to do with 75% meat and 25% veggies and you give your dog food based on their body weight? 

what does everyone think about it? i have been recommended it by someone as they said it helped their matleses tear stains? 

arthur currently has artemis small puppy mix and he doesnt mind it but i have to basically lace it with treats for him to eat it ..


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## maggieh

Many people swear by raw and as many others will tell you don't do it. WebMD has a brief but relatively balanced article on the topic Raw Dog Food Diet: Benefits and Risks, and there are a lot of other opinions, pro and con, on the web. In short, just like any of the foods we feed our fluffs, it's not for everyone but should be fine for healthy dogs if normal food handling precautions are followed. 

As for tear stains, I found a quality probiotic to be more helpful than changing food. Crystal sells the Animal Essentials line which is what I use and I saw a big difference after a few weeks on it. It's also important to remember that there are many variables to tear staining, including teething in puppies and young fluffs. I don't remember how old your baby is, but I wouldn't even worry about it until they're at least a year old.


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## Grace'sMom

Some dogs don't like raw.

I tried it with Gus - because it is supposed to be good for dogs with food allergies. But he wouldn't go near the raw food.

Did okay-ish with freeze dried patties.

But I guess - how old is Arthur?

That's an important question....

For tear stains - Grace had bad ones until she was done teething. Probiotics definitely helped.


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## shellbeme

I think a raw diet can be incredibly awesome, but I also think it's a great idea to have a holistic vet help you to make sure the dog is getting all the vitamins and nutrients they need!


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## mostlytina

I feed raw. I see no difference in tear stain. The one had it still has it and the one didn't have it still doesn't.  Good luck with your raw research. You will definitely hear two sides of the stories.


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## Bailey&Me

I feed Bailey Primal frozen raw food. Other brands of frozen raw I have tried are Paw Naturaw and Nature's Variety. I also feed dehydrated raw - Stella & Chewy's, Honest Kitchen or Addiction. I rotate between all these foods, and also sometimes mix the dehydrated and frozen together. Bailey has done really well on this food and is very healthy (knock on wood). For the first few months I had him, he was on holistic kibble and canned food...I read up a lot on nutrition and decided to switch him to raw. I am happy with it but I know it's not for everyone...I would recommend first reading the many threads on SM regarding raw food, and then search the web. I also checked out this forum: Dog Food Forum


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## nicolen412

Hello, 

I guess my primary concern with RAW is bacteria (ecoli ? I read somewhere there was a massive issue with this and greyhounds) further, the patties we get here by BARF I've heard mixed reviews about mainly because they apparently use flavourings so I think I may try and make some myself with the recipes people seem to be successfully using online... 

@shellbeme unformtunately we do not have a holistic vet in australia (I think) at least not one near me so i will have to source most of my information online. 

arthur is 16 weeks so still tiny


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## Louis

I started feeding my 11 week maltese raw food diet, got this from petbarn in Sydney  I saw a great improvement on tear stains, however, we noticed a massive sleeping capacity after. I feed Louis dry food during day time, last meal would be the raw kangaroo meat. To make sure he gets the complete diet  and a variety as well... 

Best of luck to you & Arthur


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## nicolen412

Hi Louis, 

What do you mean by a great sleeping capacity? And also, how much do you feed by that I mean how do you split it? 

Currently Arthur is on 1 cup of dry food a day and I have read that he should be having approx 50g of raw food (1/3 bones 2/3 meat + veggie mix) but I want to start doing a "half half" but have no idea how to cut down the bone to such a msall amount? 

Thank you, 
Nicole


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## Grace'sMom

This is just my opinion.... I know Arthur is 4-5 months now?

But I'd caution anyone from putting a puppy on raw. Especially a dog like a Maltese.

They are known to have greater risk of liver and kidney problems.

From what I've seen on this group - those issues don't come to light until between 6-12 months, sometimes later.

A high protein diet like raw is the opposite of what a dog with liver or kidney issues needs. And until you know your puppy does not have those issues - I'd caution you using it.

Kris - Louis's "massive sleeping capacity" after eating raw - this may be a warning sign that the raw is too high protein for him. It is not normal for a puppy to have a "massive sleeping capacity" after eating. They may be sleepy and take a nap or go to bed, but it shouldn't be a drastic change.

Just my thoughts.


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## nicolen412

Hi Tori, 

I was wondering if you could explain to me what this "massive sleeping capacity" is ? Does it mean that the dog sleeps more than usual and why does protein casue this? 

also how does the protein affect kidney and liver? the only reason I am looking into raw is because they claim it to be better for health and now im concerned!


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## Grace'sMom

I don't know what it means... Kris will have to explain what they meant when they wrote that 

But from how it was written, I took it as something that concerned them.

_" I saw a great improvement on tear stains, *however, we noticed a massive sleeping capacity after.*"

_Just how I read it.

To me - that means it is too much protein for that puppy.

When I give Grace too much protein (she has liver damage) - she gets very lethargic and sleeps a lot.

Because it is an overload of ammonia and protein in her system. Her liver cannot process the protein, so everythign that the liver (or kidneys if it is a kidney issue) takes care of - stays in her system. So she basically "shuts down" until her body is more leveled out. If I fed Grace a raw meal right now - she would end up at the emergency vet. A dog with liver issues should never eat a high protein diet.

Since Maltese are prone to liver issues - again I'd caution a raw diet on a puppy until you knew for sure his liver was healthy.

Raw *can be* better for a dog's health. But it has to be something you research and learn how to do correctly so that it is a complete diet - but this is the case for ANY option you choose - raw or not.

Raw can definitely be a healthy diet.

But just my thoughts.... Maltese are companion dogs, not working or hunters.... Companion. Sitting on laps of queens. I think they most likely ate a higher carb diet than most dogs did when they were initially bred... because they were always on laps. I doubt they were eating high quantities of meat.

You need to make an informed decision - so make sure to read, read, read. There are a few great sites online that discuss how to do a raw diet properly so that it is a whole diet. Especially for a puppy.

May want to have his liver levels looked at first though - be sure he is safe to be on it.


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## sassy's mommy

Some people sweat by raw or frozen, personally I would never feed either. I think there is too much rish involved because of the transportation and proper handling. We never know how the foods have been handled prior to purchase.


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## CrystalAndZoe

I recommend and use raw (dehydrated) for all stages of life. I always tell people with puppies to hold off until they have had a CBC to make sure they do not have a compromised immune system. Raw is not for a dog with a compromised immune system. Most raw foods have too high of a protein amount IMO for Maltese (and toy breeds in general) so you have to really search and do your homework to find those that are a lower to moderate protein amount. That's why I've chosen Addiction. There are 6 grain free formulas that we rotate through. I don't do the ones with grain for several individual reasons for my fluffs. But if you have a dog with no allergy issues, no joint issues, no GI issues...then some good grains is fine IMO. You can also work with a holistic vet on what and how much veggies to add to a raw food to lower the protein amount to what is best for your particular baby if there are liver issues. 

btw...there have been far more recalls in dry kibble then there has ever been in raw. I would feed from a small independent company hands down over any food that is mass produced in large facilities like Diamond.


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## Grace'sMom

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I recommend and use raw (dehydrated) for all stages of life. I always tell people with puppies to hold off until they have had a CBC to make sure they do not have a compromised immune system. Raw is not for a dog with a compromised immune system. Most raw foods have too high of a protein amount IMO for Maltese (and toy breeds in general) so you have to really search and do your homework to find those that are a lower to moderate protein amount. That's why I've chosen Addiction. There are 6 grain free formulas that we rotate through. I don't do the ones with grain for several individual reasons for my fluffs. But if you have a dog with no allergy issues, no joint issues, no GI issues...then some good grains is fine IMO. You can also work with a holistic vet on what and how much veggies to add to a raw food to lower the protein amount to what is best for your particular baby if there are liver issues.
> 
> btw...there have been far more recalls in dry kibble then there has ever been in raw. I would feed from a small independent company hands down over any food that is mass produced in large facilities like Diamond.


:goodpost:

we do home cooked...not raw. But that's a great post for those deciding to do raw


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## maggieh

nicolen412 said:


> Hi Louis,
> 
> What do you mean by a great sleeping capacity? And also, how much do you feed by that I mean how do you split it?
> 
> Currently Arthur is on 1 cup of dry food a day and I have read that he should be having approx 50g of raw food (1/3 bones 2/3 meat + veggie mix) but I want to start doing a "half half" but have no idea how to cut down the bone to such a msall amount?
> 
> Thank you,
> Nicole


Nicole - how much does Arthur weigh? 1 c sounds like a lot of food for a Maltese; my girls each get around 1/2 c. per day, split into two meals. Sweetness weights a little over 7 pounds and Tessa is about 10 pounds.


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## Ladysmom

The AVMA just passed an official policy on raw feeding you might want to read.

http://atwork.avma.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Resolution_5_raw-food.pdf


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## sassy's mommy

Ladysmom said:


> The AVMA just passed an official policy on raw feeding you might want to read.
> 
> http://atwork.avma.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Resolution_5_raw-food.pdf


 :goodpost:


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## nicolen412

Oh wow the jury is completely split on this raw food topic eh! What a hard decision to make ..... This bacteria thing is really worrying me. 

Tori, Arthur weighs 2.2kg and the Artemis pack says that he should be eating 1 - 1 and 1/3 cup a day. He is on 1 cup as most of the time he doesn't eat much for lunch but will have a good sized dinner. :s


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## CrystalAndZoe

Ladysmom said:


> The AVMA just passed an official policy on raw feeding you might want to read.
> 
> http://atwork.avma.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Resolution_5_raw-food.pdf


Yes I read it. I, along with many holistic vets and countless others who have fed raw for years and years aren't too happy about it. You have to remember vets still try to push Science Diet. Vets will even tell people puppy chow, kibbles N bits and others in that category of food are fine. Vets still try to push yearly vaccines and clustering them altogether. I'm not bashing vets but we all know they don't have nearly the education on nutrition or on what over vaccinating is doing to our fluffs.

I can't help but think timing on this has to do with AAHA adding a 5th 'vital health assessment' for veterinarians in determining the health status of their patients.

Therapeutic Pet Foods: Coming Soon to a Vet Near You


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## Ladysmom

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Yes I read it. I, along with many holistic vets and countless others who have fed raw for years and years aren't too happy about it. You have to remember vets still try to push Science Diet. Vets will even tell people puppy chow, kibbles N bits and others in that category of food are fine. Vets still try to push yearly vaccines and clustering them altogether. I'm not bashing vets but we all know they don't have nearly the education on nutrition or on what over vaccinating is doing to our fluffs.
> 
> I can't help but think timing on this has to do with AAHA adding a 5th 'vital health assessment' for veterinarians in determining the health status of their patients.
> 
> Therapeutic Pet Foods: Coming Soon to a Vet Near You


I didn't say I agreed with the AVMA, but I thought Nicole should read it since she is researching raw as an alternative.

I personally have no experience with raw. Lady had health issues so it was not an option. I home cooked for her. Bailey's breeder recommends a moderate protein so raw is too high in protein for him.


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## CrystalAndZoe

nicolen412 said:


> Oh wow the jury is completely split on this raw food topic eh! What a hard decision to make ..... This bacteria thing is really worrying me.
> 
> Tori, Arthur weighs 2.2kg and the Artemis pack says that he should be eating 1 - 1 and 1/3 cup a day. He is on 1 cup as most of the time he doesn't eat much for lunch but will have a good sized dinner. :s
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free



If I used the right conversion table, that would make Arthur 4.85 lbs. Most Maltese that size only eat 1/4 cup twice a day. You have to remember that all dog food companies are trying to sell dog food and often are more generous with serving size then they really need. If he's not overweight, then continue on with what you're doing. But if you can't feel his ribs, see a defined waist when looking down at him, or a nice tuck up when looking at him from the side, he needs to cut back on his food a bit. :thumbsup:


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## nicolen412

He seems to not be overweight. I can feel his ribs but what does this "tuck up" mean? Does it mean that like he has a little bit of a curve at his cheat and then goes back so his tummy isn't round? If that's the case then yeah he has the tuck up. 

With that said I have been noticing that Arthur is looking bigger but I am not sure if it is because of fur! 


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## Ladysmom

nicolen412 said:


> He seems to not be overweight. I can feel his ribs but what does this "tuck up" mean? Does it mean that like he has a little bit of a curve at his cheat and then goes back so his tummy isn't round? If that's the case then yeah he has the tuck up.
> 
> With that said I have been noticing that Arthur is looking bigger but I am not sure if it is because of fur!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Arthur is still a young puppy so it is unlikely he is overweight. I'm sure he looks bigger because puppies do most of their growing during those first six months.


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## Louis

nicolen412 said:


> Hi Louis,
> 
> What do you mean by a great sleeping capacity? And also, how much do you feed by that I mean how do you split it?
> 
> Currently Arthur is on 1 cup of dry food a day and I have read that he should be having approx 50g of raw food (1/3 bones 2/3 meat + veggie mix) but I want to start doing a "half half" but have no idea how to cut down the bone to such a msall amount?
> 
> Thank you,
> Nicole


Hi Nicole, 

In each pack, I only give him 1/4 of it. This is to give enough raw meat for the day, I give him this before going to bed because it would be time for us to all go to sleep. Hope this helps!


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## Louis

Grace'sMom said:


> This is just my opinion.... I know Arthur is 4-5 months now?
> 
> But I'd caution anyone from putting a puppy on raw. Especially a dog like a Maltese.
> 
> They are known to have greater risk of liver and kidney problems.
> 
> From what I've seen on this group - those issues don't come to light until between 6-12 months, sometimes later.
> 
> A high protein diet like raw is the opposite of what a dog with liver or kidney issues needs. And until you know your puppy does not have those issues - I'd caution you using it.
> 
> Kris - Louis's "massive sleeping capacity" after eating raw - this may be a warning sign that the raw is too high protein for him. It is not normal for a puppy to have a "massive sleeping capacity" after eating. They may be sleepy and take a nap or go to bed, but it shouldn't be a drastic change.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


Hi Tori, 

Yes, you are very much correct. This was actually given to us by his vet, we made sure to check with his doctor due to the probability of future health problems. 1/4 portion of each pack, more or less at about 55g/day. For his weight this is perfect in addition to his dry food intake. The massive sleeping - I reckon this was due to the transition from soft & dry food. We will be watching his progress in the next few weeks and see how if this is taking effect. But so far, his output looks so much better and less tear stains. 

Thanks so much for the heads up! Cheers!


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## aprilb

I do not recommend a raw diet for Maltese...too much protein, and a greater risk of food-born illness. As some others have said, a low to moderate protein, lower fat, and a generous portion of high quality carbs work best for them. Quite a few of our members home cook for their Maltese, so this is a good option for a fresh, high-quality diet.


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## nicolen412

Hi Louis,

Isn't 55g a day alot for a little dog as well as more kibble? Or am I misunderstanding? I have been told to feed Arthur about 60g of raw food a day(if I am feeding raw only) but I'm thinking of splitting that in half and then giving the other half kibble. 

What is a "high quality carb"? Does oats count? Also, what about veggies ?? 

Thanks so much everyone I am so confused with this topic the literature on it is so conflicting 


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## Louis

nicolen412 said:


> Hi Louis,
> 
> Isn't 55g a day alot for a little dog as well as more kibble? Or am I misunderstanding? I have been told to feed Arthur about 60g of raw food a day(if I am feeding raw only) but I'm thinking of splitting that in half and then giving the other half kibble.
> 
> What is a "high quality carb"? Does oats count? Also, what about veggies ??
> 
> Thanks so much everyone I am so confused with this topic the literature on it is so conflicting
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Hi Nicole, 

BARF World recommends feeding puppies up to 10 % of their body weight. Therefore, if your pup weighs 10 lbs you should feed 1 lb of food divided between 3 or 4 feedings per day. But Louis is still a puppy, it would really depend on how much he weighs and how much exercise he does in day. Stool volume have improved as well since the intake is much lesser than kibbles. 

Just my two cents, it would still depend on what you & your vet thinks is best.


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## Grace'sMom

I home cook for Gus and Grace ... Grace has liver issues - so kibbles are out, and raw is a big no no for her.

High quality carbs:

Whole unprocessed grains (rice, oats, barley, quinoa, millet, etc)
Sweet potatoes
Pumpkin and other squashes
White potatoes
Green beans
Peas
Carrots
Beets
Apples
Basically any fresh fruit or veggie that is safe for dogs
legumes - Grace loves chickpeas


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## shellbeme

I really don't believe there are very good sources found online for free for raw food and home cooking. Some may disagree and I respect that. If you're going to do this, perhaps you might consider checking out Dr. Becker's book? Real food for Healthy Dogs and Cats. She discusses home cooking and raw. I really think it's important to have some kind of holistic or nutritional background when doing these kinds of diets. I really think if you just throw some veggies and some meat in a bowl you're going to be missing nutrients. Either way  Good luck in whatever you decide to do!

I think premade raw is great too if you go that route!


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## Grace'sMom

You're right Shelly 

Grace's diet has been planned out by our holistic vet.

But yes - anyone going raw or home cook needs to read a reputable book or find a holistic vet or nutritionist....


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## Ladysmom

shellbeme said:


> I really don't believe there are very good sources found online for free for raw food and home cooking. Some may disagree and I respect that. If you're going to do this, perhaps you might consider checking out Dr. Becker's book? Real food for Healthy Dogs and Cats. She discusses home cooking and raw. I really think it's important to have some kind of holistic or nutritional background when doing these kinds of diets. I really think if you just throw some veggies and some meat in a bowl you're going to be missing nutrients. Either way  Good luck in whatever you decide to do!
> 
> I think premade raw is great too if you go that route!


:thumbsup: Great post!

It is very important to get a recipe/diet prepared by a canine nutritionist to make sure your dog is getting all the nutrients he needs. The correct calcium to phosphorous ratio is critical. Dogs have a much higher calcium requirement than we do. All the homecooked recipes I have ever seen require adding extra calcium, among other supplements.

Calcium & Phosphorous in Dogs  - Chinaroad Lowchens of Australia -


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## Aarianne

The best "starter" book I've read on canine nutrition/homecooking/raw diets is still Monica Segal's K9 Kitchen (2nd edition) by far and I've read a bunch now.

Dogwise: K9 Kitchen


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## nicolen412

HI everyone, 

So I spoke to two vets today (the one i normally go to) and one I found that was recommended to me by Arthur's trainer who specialises in holistic diets. 

I am not sure who to trust. 

My normal vet is highly against the BARF diet but she also attempts to sell me Eukanuba (which she sells at her vet clinic) everytime i speak to her about Arthur's food. 

However, I obviously have never been to this holistic vet but have spoken to her over the phone. She says she feeds her own dogs the BARF diet and is very happy with it but cautioned that it is complex to make it at home and recommended a butcher near my area that does it ... 

Now I have issues as to whom I should trust - it seems like the animal owner world is divided on the issue


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## shellbeme

nicolen412 said:


> HI everyone,
> 
> So I spoke to two vets today (the one i normally go to) and one I found that was recommended to me by Arthur's trainer who specialises in holistic diets.
> 
> I am not sure who to trust.
> 
> My normal vet is highly against the BARF diet but she also attempts to sell me Eukanuba (which she sells at her vet clinic) everytime i speak to her about Arthur's food.
> 
> However, I obviously have never been to this holistic vet but have spoken to her over the phone. She says she feeds her own dogs the BARF diet and is very happy with it but cautioned that it is complex to make it at home and recommended a butcher near my area that does it ...
> 
> Now I have issues as to whom I should trust - it seems like the animal owner world is divided on the issue


The animal world is very much mixed on the issue. You have to decide what is going to work best for you. Here, AVMA has taken a stand against the raw food diet, and honestly I believe it is mostly to do with the risk of salmonella and certain bacteria to human beings-if your vet supports raw, you feed it, get sick-I would say it would be fairly easy to sue.

Also, many vets do not spend a lot of time learning about dog nutrition, the information they are taught-books they use, are provided by big companies, in particular Hill's Science diet. Many recommend kibble, because it is the norm, the standard, it is what they are taught. 

When you start talking to canine nutritionists and holisitic vets who study nutrition more closely, you start to see recommendations for home cooked, and raw diets-they also sometimes promote dehydrated diets and certain types of premium kibbles. I have never seen one of them promote Hills or purina or pedigree.

If you are comfortable with kibble (I still feed kibble) then stick with it. If you want to try raw, by all means go ahead-it's just important to do as much reading as you can. It might very well be that raw/home cooked is better than kibble-but I, personally am not going to take that leap until I learn more.

Dr. Becker's book has taught me a ton and if I would follow any recipes it would be hers-however I still want to learn more. There are still more publications I want to add to my library before I actually dive in to it. (My husband isn't really supportive of home cooking either so we will likely never be 100% kibble free).

I don't know of any studies that have been done to compare raw diets to kibble-that's part of the problem. I think raw diets and home cooked diets, can be one of the very best things for pet nutrition, I just think you have to impliment it correctly. As a whole, I don't think the pet owning public (includes myself) really understand that these diets require education and planning.

If you want to do it, you totally can.  Have you seen any of Dr. Becker's you tube videos or read any of her articles? She is a regular vet, who also studies holistic medicine and nutrition. You might look her up and watch a few vids on u tube. Very informative. Others might also know of some other canine nutritionists to suggest reading up after as well..


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## aprilb

Vets cannot be expected to know everything about Maltese..especially in the area of diet..I had a vet that I used for 10 years that wanted to put one of my Malts on a high protein diet and I trusted her..well my dog could not handle the high protein..JMO, but those who have owned and bred Maltese for many years probably have a better idea on their non-medical care.. As far as Eukanuba is concerned, if your vet sells it, she is making money. There is a lot of info on this forum concerning diets, if you do a search.


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## Grace'sMom

I'm personally in love with our Holistic Vet.

She never tries to sell me anything. The other vets (and even the staff) push the food they sell in the clinic.

So I go with my holistic vet


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## nicolen412

I have decided on the raw diet I think. I'm Realy beginning to be uncomfortable with kibble but I have made an appointment with the holistic vet and she sounds scary! 


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## Grace'sMom

she sounds scary?


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## nicolen412

Yes she sounded very fierce on the phone and questioned what I did at university etc as I mentioned I wasn't free to go till after my exams were done. And then she told me that she was open till 6 but didn't like staying past 3 so the earlier I could make it the better .... Was really odd but I asked around and apparently she's basoclly the most well regarded in this part of town so maybe she's like that as she knows what she's worth 


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## silverhaven

Diet in all forms, whether it be human or animal has its strong advocates for all kinds of ideas, and everyone can be really really strong on what they believe the right way.... I personally have basically switched diets on my girls and myself until I found what worked the best, what did we have more relaxed energy on. What makes eyes clear, skin bright, allergy free etc. etc. I can be a bit of a road to travel but worth it. 

For both my girls, they have been on different kinds of kibble and different kinds of raw food, but for both I have found that they do better on home cooked. Verified by blood tests. Penny wouldn't touch raw food, and Lola was really sick anytime she ate it, no matter the source. My vet advocates either raw or homecooked, and now has freezers full of raw for sale, and only sells what they consider premium brands of kibble, like Acana, Origen etc. My girls eat meat and veg/fruit, no grains, little starchy veg. and have added calcium, and good fats and digestive enzymes. This works for them very well. But you need to travel your own path on what works for your dog and lifestyle. Oh and by the way. I also now eat this way  funny but the dogs were on this diet long before me.


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## Grace'sMom

Well... some people have horrible phone skills LOL

But - if she is the same way when you see her - she may also be pushy about things.

Remember that no matter what she says, this is your pup and your choice. Just like a doctor - no matter how highly respected they are - at the end of the day you have to do what your gut tells you.

Hope she is nicer in person.


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## Gadget

I am trying Natures Instinct Raw with my 2 babies and they really seem to like it so far. I'm splitting kibble and frozen, and the web site has a great calculator for how to do this.


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## LOVE_BABY

Grace'sMom said:


> I home cook for Gus and Grace ... Grace has liver issues - so kibbles are out, and raw is a big no no for her.
> 
> High quality carbs:
> 
> Whole unprocessed grains (rice, oats, barley, quinoa, millet, etc)
> Sweet potatoes
> Pumpkin and other squashes
> White potatoes
> Green beans
> Peas
> Carrots
> Beets
> Apples
> Basically any fresh fruit or veggie that is safe for dogs
> legumes - Grace loves chickpeas



Do you give them any meat with the above items?


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