# Sticky  Who are the real "show breeders"?



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I pulled up an old thread about a breeder with questionable practices (breeding mutts out of champion Maltese). I did that because this person is still out there fooling folks into thinking she has ethics with some of the tag lines on her website.

I was in particular responding to a quote by Tina who said, "This woman is not a show breeder. She was attempting to be a show breeder by finding other show breeder's willing to sell her a dog with a good pedigree. Then she finds a handler who really needs money and gets them to show the dog for her. This does not make you a "show breeder". She has never stepped foot in a show ring." 

Marie came into that discussion and asked" [...if] it was okay for breeders to hire handlers for their dogs. .... As a matter of fact, until recently, I had been under the impression that is what the AKC prefers ... professional handlers." 

And to get to the point of that old thread, I don't think it was the fact that she had hired handlers that made this breeder not a show breeder, it was that she does not really breed to show. She has acquired dogs from others, had them shown, and bred them for profit and to sell as "teacups"._..though she doesn't like that word, but uses it all over her website to get google search engines to find it. _ 

There are a number breeders out there like this. They acquire dogs from anyone who will sell to them. Often from many different sources, usually males, and they have them shown so that they can in-turn sell puppies as Champion-sired, but their goal is not to breed to produce show dogs, it is to sell many puppies for profit. They use showing to give them an appearance of respectability, but are not truly using the shows to evaluate their breeding stock. This makes these folks tricky to spot, especially for the average pet owner who may not understand the difference between these types and a "real show breeder." They can be a bit of a gray area. They are not clearly BYB, nor puppy mills, but they are not breeding for the kind of reasons many of us here on SM would consider the mark of an ethical breeder. 

So how do you figure out who the real show breeders are, versus the fake ones? 

:thumbsup:Well a real show breeder will finish both their males and the majority of their females (although not necessarily all of them). 

:thmbdn: it is a red flag when there are no finished females among their breeding dogs. 

:thumbsup: A real show breeder has dogs of their own kennel name finished. If they have been breeding for a long time, they will have many dogs with their kennel name who have their Championship. 

:thmbdn: it is a red flag when none of the dogs they have bred are shown or finished (or if they are finished they are only finished when someone else bought them and finished them). 

_(I should concede the point here that I do not yet have a finished dog from my own breeding, but I have only bred one litter and two of the puppies from that litter are currently in the ring and hopefully will both be finished). _

:thumbsup: A real show breeder may use a handler, but IMHO should also be going to shows. Seeing what else is out there helps you to evaluate your breeding stock and allows you to continue to grow and learn from the process of showing. I also think that being an owner/handler increases my respect for any breeder. While there are some outstanding breeders that do not show their own dogs, I really appreciate and admire the ones that do. Most of the great ones I know who do not typically show their own dogs, at least have done so at times and know what it takes to be in the ring. 

:thmbdn: it is a red flag to have someone who only sends their dogs off to be shown and never themselves step foot onto the show site. 

:thumbsup: a real show breeder is active in the national club, and/or local kennel clubs and volunteers or donates to them. (Thank Lynn for this one). 

:thmbdn: it is a red flag if a breeder calls all clubs too political to be a part of and claims that they have no value. 

These are just some of the things I feel can help people to distinguish between the white, the gray and the black. Of course, the truly black bad guys have those big red flags most of the SM folks already recognize: like the BUY NOW button, the mixing of breeds, the numerous breeds, the tremendous number of puppies of a similar age all for sale at once, the word teacup, the use of pictures that emphasize the super tiny size (posing puppies in teacups or next to soda cans). 

If you can think of others, feel free to add them.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Carina, this is excellent! I am going to request it be pinned.


----------



## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks for all this valuable information, Carina.

I have a question. What exactly does it mean to finish off? I guess I should know ... but, I'm being honest ... I don't know.


----------



## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

:thmbdn: Another way the bad guys are able to draw many people in is with newspaper ads and it's ALWAYS the SAME people every FEW months with puppies from the poor overbred dames. ($$$)

Thank you Carina for this information.


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Finish is short for Finishing a Championship title. Around show circles people will say things like "How many have you finished? Have you finished your girl yet?" 

I have finished 3 dogs: Cadeau, Cadie and Cacia. I owner/handled my Cadie completely...start to finish. I had some handling help with Cadeau who could be a bit unruly in the ring. My friend Paul showed him for his last wins. And Cacia, because I was always showing Cadie had several other handlers for some of her points, but I in the end I finished her myself by putting both of her majors on her.


----------



## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

:goodpost:


----------



## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

CloudClan said:


> Finish is short for Finishing a Championship title. Around show circles people will say things like "How many have you finished? Have you finished your girl yet?"
> 
> I have finished 3 dogs: Cadeau, Cadie and Cacia. I owner/handled my Cadie completely...start to finish. I had some handling help with Cadeau who could be a bit unruly in the ring. My friend Paul showed him for his last wins. And Cacia, because I was always showing Cadie had several other handlers for some of her points, but I in the end I finished her myself by putting both of her majors on her.


Do you have to acquire a certain amounts of points before a dog finishes? Or, does the dog have to be the top winner in more than one show? I don't know if I am making sense the way I am asking this questions ... but, I am trying. : )


----------



## aksm4 (Nov 28, 2011)

Excellent information unfortunately where i am from too mny that fit in this category 

Anna


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Do you have to acquire a certain amounts of points before a dog finishes? Or, does the dog have to be the top winner in more than one show? I don't know if I am making sense the way I am asking this questions ... but, I am trying. : )


In order for a dog to finish their AKC championship they have to earn 15 points. They have to win at least two majors which means winning on two different days when at least 3 points or more are available. Some dogs can finish fast. I have heard of incredible dogs (or incredibly lucky owners) getting their dogs finished in as short as a couple of weekends. Theoretically it is possible to finish in just one 3 day weekend (3 days where the dog wins a 5 point major). In Maltese, majors are getting harder and harder to find. In all my time competing, other than nationals, I have never been to a show that actually had a 5 point major available in our breed. I entered Cacia all last year and only got to compete for majors 2 weekends in the entire year (entering more than 60 shows where she could not compete and I was basically just giving the hosting club and the superintendent my money). It is rarely as easy as it sounds, and it takes a lot of time, money and patience to show successfully. It is even harder for owner/handlers, especially those of us who are not as polished as the pros. It is a rare sport where amateurs compete alongside professionals for the same type of wins. 

I created a page on my website that tries to explain how this works: CloudClan - Rules of the Sport


----------



## reanut1379 (Oct 10, 2011)

Thank you for posting this! I always knew that it was best to buy from a show breeder, but before I joined SM, I would have never guessed that this person wasn't a show breeder. This is why I'm glad SM is here


----------



## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Thank you so very much Carina for this information.

As just, well not just, but as a pet owner, of course there is alot that I do not know about showing and breeding. If I am wrong about this, please let me know, additionally, at the shows there have to be so many Maltese, who have entered the show, in order to show your Maltese, does that make sense. Not sure I am explaining that correctly. 

I know this is a thread about handlers, of which I just don't like to think about, but Carina did give alot of wonderful information.

One thing I did want to point out, which has nothing to do with handling :blush:, in any group, for instance pet owners, there are great pet owners, loving pet owners, and then there are those, that should only have a stuffed animal. So we wouldn't want a generalization of pet owners, when we hear of the horrific things that happen by the hands of those very same pet owners.

I would like to keep this positive, as I know in my heart, first hand, that there are breeders, who love each and every dog under their care, more than the air they breath. They enter a show, of course because they love the breed, but also because they love dearly, the dog they are showing. They experience great joy at times, just as we do as pet owners, by the love they recieve from these special babies and severe heartaches, and all in between. They are very special people. Are there alot of them, that fall into this category? I would only hope so, as I don't know every show breeder, but what I will tell you, they do exsist, and this I know first hand. So don't loose hope, in all show breeders, or paint them all with the same brush, just as they don't paint all pet owners with the same brush. It may be a very difficult task to find that loving breeder, but they are out there. 

Back to the topic, as far as handlers, I just don't understand it, as it gets even deeper into the show world. What warms my heart, it so see a breeder showing their special baby, who they do love with all their heart, and I would go as far as to say, winning, is not their number one priority, of course they would love to win, but even if they don't, they love that special furbaby just as much as they always did, are so very proud of them, even if they do not win, and cherish them so very much with all their heart, and certianly are not in it for the money, as I understand, it is very expensive to show.

A breeder such as this, will forever remain in my heart.

Just thought I would share this.


----------



## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Excellent post Carina! :thumbsup:


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks Carina for clarifying this important topic for us.:wub: Excellent information..:thumbsup:


----------



## LuvMyBoys (Jan 2, 2012)

Thank you so much Carina!! Since getting Dusty I have been so curious about this mysterious show world. I still don't understand it, but I'm getting there. I knew getting him that Dusty was a retired Champion, but I really had no idea what that meant, but I did know that I was VERY impressed with it and said it to EVERYBODY! Now I know a little more about it, and even more impressed with my little love bug!

I got this in an email from Dusty's first Mommy, that's fast, isn't it? 
Dusty was a natural in the show ring. He finished his championship in two weekends with back to back majors from the bred by exhibitor class. He has always been so easy going and loveable, and is right where he should be, in your loving family!


----------



## Bailey&Me (Mar 8, 2010)

Carina, this is fantastic information - thank you for posting it! I also love the "Rules of the Game" page on your website!


----------



## Moxie'smom (Dec 16, 2007)

Thumbs up! Great post. She's still out there? oy!


----------



## educ8m (May 19, 2010)

Thanks Carina! For those of us new to all this, your information is extremely helpful. The Maltese Specialty show in Dallas last spring was only the 2nd show I had ever attended in my life. It's fascinating and fun, but there is SO much to learn. Thanks for helping educate us. :aktion033:


----------



## maltmomma (Nov 21, 2004)

EXCELLENT post, Carina!


----------



## ckanen2n (Jan 2, 2012)

Carina, Congratulations for finishing and/or putting the majors on your own babies!


----------



## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

thank you for pinning this, helpful topic, but I am confused about this
:thmbdn: it is a red flag when none of the dogs they have bred are shown or finished (or if they are finished they are only finished when someone else bought them and finished them). 

_(I should concede the point here that I do not yet have a finished dog from my own breeding, but I have only bred one litter and two of the puppies from that litter are currently in the ring and hopefully will both be finished). _
So, the litter was from not shown dogs(pets) and now 2 puppies on their way to championship, correct? Are the rest puppies were sold/ gifted as a pet puppies?
Please explain as now I am confused seriously, as before I was told that if I don't show my dog/s then I could not breed them
Thank you


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Tashulia25 said:


> thank you for pinning this, helpful topic, but I am confused about this
> :thmbdn: it is a red flag when none of the dogs they have bred are shown or finished (or if they are finished they are only finished when someone else bought them and finished them).
> 
> _(I should concede the point here that I do not yet have a finished dog from my own breeding, but I have only bred one litter and two of the puppies from that litter are currently in the ring and hopefully will both be finished). _
> ...


No, that is not correct. Neither of my dogs were bred at all until they finished their championships. Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that I own these dogs, but bought them from reputable breeders who served as my mentors. 

I started out with one show dog purchased from an established show breeder. Under the contract from his breeder he was not to be bred until he was finished (I would not have bred him anyway, without the title, but this was the rule a reputable breeder will often stipulate in their contract). When he was finished his breeder took him to one of her girls and proved him. His daughter from that litter was shown and had two majors by the time she was 8 months old. She later went on to get her championship at our national specialty by taking a major for Best of Winners. 

I did not breed a litter myself until I finished him and then also finished my girl Cadie who was also purchased from an established show breeder and contractually expected to be finished before breeding. When I bred her Cadie was almost 2 years old (having finished her championship 6 months prior). So both parents were finished before they were bred. 

The parents were Ch. Jacob's Beau Cadeau des Anges x Ch. MaltAngel Cascading Starlight. 

At the time that I posted this I was working on getting championships on the puppy girls from that litter. Both of them now have their championship. The third, a boy, was never shown, although he certainly was show quality, he is in a loving pet home. He is fixed and will never be bred, but he may enter the ring with a junior handler. And one of the girls is just a few points from getting her Grand Championship. 

I have also gotten Rally obedience titles on Mother and daughter. 

I agree with whoever told you that you should not be breeding your dogs until you have proven them in the ring.


----------



## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

CloudClan said:


> No, that is not correct. Neither of my dogs were bred at all until they finished their championships....


Thank you so much , I am sorry if I ask something wrong, it is just these words made me confused "*I do not yet have a finished dog *from my own breeding, *but I have only bred* one litter"


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Tashulia25 said:


> Thank you so much , I am sorry if I ask something wrong, it is just these words made me confused "*I do not yet have a finished dog *from my own breeding, *but I have only bred* one litter"


Right... I went back to edit my reply where I think the confusion stems from. I bought these two dogs that were the sire and dam of my first litter from two different established show breeders who served as my mentors. I bought one, showed him, finished him, and then went in search of a female I could also show and finish. 

This post is a bit old. But I have now bred three litters myself. And of those three litters all of the parents were finished. In my first litter I went on to finish the two girls and in the second litter a boy is out showing currently, in the third litter, I have a new show prospect girl who turned 6 months today and is going to make her debut soon.


----------



## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

CloudClan said:


> Right... I went back to edit my reply where I think the confusion stems from. I bought these two dogs that were the sire and dam of my first litter from two different established show breeders who served as my mentors. I bought one, showed him, finished him, and then went in search of a female I could also show and finish.
> 
> This post is a bit old. But I have now bred three litters myself. And of those three litters all of the parents were finished. In my first litter I went on to finish the two girls and in the second litter a boy is out showing currently, in the third litter, I have a new show prospect girl who turned 6 months today and is going to make her debut soon.


Thank you so much :wub:Congrats on your little girl:thumbsup:


----------



## Boo3 (Aug 22, 2018)

CloudClan said:


> I pulled up an old thread about a breeder with questionable practices (breeding mutts out of champion Maltese). I did that because this person is still out there fooling folks into thinking she has ethics with some of the tag lines on her website.
> 
> I was in particular responding to a quote by Tina who said, "This woman is not a show breeder. She was attempting to be a show breeder by finding other show breeder's willing to sell her a dog with a good pedigree. Then she finds a handler who really needs money and gets them to show the dog for her. This does not make you a "show breeder". She has never stepped foot in a show ring."
> 
> ...


The AKC registers champions..


----------

