# Breeder visit - are my expectations too high??



## Lisa-Maria (May 9, 2015)

I recently visited a breeder after doing tons of research and thinking that I knew what a responsible breeder was. This breeder has been breeding for decades, shows dogs, and other reputable breeders have used this breeder's dogs to sire puppies. The breeder's FB page had beautiful puppies/dogs.. I could go on and on..... Let's just say that this breeder looked "good on paper". Now after my visit I am just confused on whether I expected to much ??? So I have a some questions on what I observed. Can you please tell me if my concerns are normal??

1. The puppy basically lived in his crate. He was not socialized to people because he was shy and scared when I picked him up. He also trembled when I held him. He was definitely not comfortable being picked up and held. 

2. He was completely shaven to the point that I could see his pink skin. Also, it was not done well, so there was patches of hair that was not to the skin like the the other parts. His nails needed trimming and he has lots of tear stains. The area around his mouth was also stained.

3. The breeder did not show us all the areas where the breeding dogs spend their time. There was 6 females in another room and the breeder brought out the mother for me to see per my request. The mother had hair but also needed grooming, and had tear stains. 


4. The dad was also shaven to the skin He barked constantly at us from his crate. 

5. The puppy had not been to the vet since he was 8 weeks old. The breeder did the shots since then. 

6. The breeder feeds the dog Pro Plan food. 

7. There was about 5 Maltese dogs in crates and 1 other breed dog in a crate in the area I saw. 

All of this had be screaming "RUN" in my head. Then I started to wonder if any of this was normal and I just expected too much. Please let me know. 

Thanks!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I'd run. I'd run on any one of the accounts you mentioned. Well, except maybe the breeder giving vaccines, that is not unusual. I can't imagine any reason to shave a young puppy, except that they were not cared for and got stained and matted.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Are you comfortable sharing the name of this breeder?


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

How sad, I'd love to know who the breeder is


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I agree with Sylvia, it certainly doesn't sound good.

I too would be curious to know the breeder; sometimes breeders who have been successful get in over their heads and start to have problems.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

pammy4501 said:


> Are you comfortable sharing the name of this breeder?[/QUOTE
> 
> I am in Florida. Could you share the info on the breeder or pm me. I know many of the Florida breeders.


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## Lisa-Maria (May 9, 2015)

I didn't share the name of the breeder because my goal wasn't to bash the breeder, I just really wanted to know if I valid concerns because I am new to all of this. Also, the breeder seemed like a nice person which made everything even more confusing. 

I am also still wondering if I should get the puppy (he is 6 months old) because although I didn't like what I saw, I feel like I could give him a better life. 

I will PM you the breeder's name if you asked for it.

Sylvia, I thought the same thing but 4 of the dogs that I saw were completely shaved. The breeder said that the dogs are kept shaved if they are not being shown. Do you know if any other breeders does this??

Paula, it was very sad and my heart is aching for that poor puppy. I want to rescue him. 

Maggie, I did wonder if maybe the breeder got in over their head as you said. The dogs that had hair (females) were pretty but they desperately needed grooming. 

Cathy, I am in New Port Richey not far from you. Can you please share if you know any breeders close by.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

Honestly, if you were not comfortable with the breeder or the conditions I would move on. Florida has many wonderful breeders. I would like to know the breeder.


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## Lisa-Maria (May 9, 2015)

Cathy, I know that you are right but I do feel awful for this puppy. BTW I sent you a PM, I just figured out how...lol


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

Lisa, I am not familiar with that breeder. You can start a new thread if you want to ask if anyone has experience with her.


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## Lisa-Maria (May 9, 2015)

Cathy I did post asking about the breeder in my introductory post but I did not get much feedback. 

I also searched the Spoiled Maltese forums and all the results that came up was positive but old (from 2005 - 2010).


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

elly said:


> Lisa, I am not familiar with that breeder. You can start a new thread if you want to ask if anyone has experience with her.


I agree with Cathy. Honestly though, some if what you are describing may be within the normal limits for someone with a number of dogs. It is common for show breeders to cut down finished dogs and breeding dogs. As for the Purina Pro Plan, I do know a number of fantastic breeders that feed this. The show world is quite different from the pet world. But sharing the name of the breeder isn't for breeder bashing, just info sharing.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Like others have mentioned i would run. Red flags all over except for the vaccinating since many breeders will do their own vaccines. I have no idea why a 6 month old puppy would be shaved, also was she saving him to possibly show, i'm just asking because of the age. There are so many wonderful breeders here in Florida. If you have any questions or concerns you know that we are here for you and will help in any way we can. The right puppy is out there for you.


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

I agree with everyone else, I wouldn't and I know it is hard to walk away from these cuties but you could have a world of grief with health issues.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

I would be concerned. My breeder had me at her house for 2 hours on the day we met Tyler at 1 month old. She introduced us to his mom and dad and baby sisters, as well as showed us the cozy room where they were weening with mom. They were not crated and very clean and well groomed. When I picked Tyler up, he was not cut or shaved. She had bathed him and trimmed the hair around his little eyes.

I adopted my first dog from a non profit, but our dog growing up was from a breeder (a poodle) and although I was 10 I remember a similar experience to the one I had with Tyler.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I responded to your pm and what would concern me the most is the temperament and personality of the puppy. If you wanted a social, outgoing puppy then you are likely to be disappointed and in for a lot of work to do what may not be possible with this puppy. 

I understand you could give the puppy a better life but please know that by giving her money for this puppy you are rewarding her for at best not socializing the pup and at worst engaging in poor practices. Remember that every time you "save" a dog by giving the breeder money, you just encourage them to breed more puppies. 

This person may or may not be a responsible breeder but if the puppy's personality is not what you want, then walk away.


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## luvsmalts (Oct 21, 2008)

I would be concerned about the socialization, it may continue to be a problem. I would keep looking for your perfect match. Good luck.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Please don't fall victim to giving a puppy a better life. I understand the concept, and I know it is hard to resist, but doing so, just ends up putting money into the hands of people who are not doing well by their dogs. You deserve to have a happy, healthy, socialized puppy. Or you could rescue. 

Most of the show breeders with whom I am familiar, cut down their dogs as soon as they are finished showing. But, cut down is not shaved. The only reason to shave a dog, is because a long period of neglect made it necessary...or maybe because you just don't care, and shaving is easier than a nice cut. 

There is no reason to be afraid to name the breeder, as long as everything you said is true. It would be unethical to simply slam a breeder for some personal reason, but telling your experience can be helpful.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

I like to add that BYB are really good on their selling process with clean puppies, welcoming you at their house, showing you the parents and so on then letting go a pup at 8-10 weeks old. It's a business. With that being said, if you felt the situation was wrong then stay away from it. Please don't feel like you can save the puppy and give him a better life, that will only reinforce the cycle. You've got great advice here, temperament and socialization are extremely important and you'll have to deal with it for tour dogs the entire life.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Oh I see, it was Blue Hill Maltese. I have heard the name and my understanding is that she has been breeding for many years and is a respected show breeder. But hoping some of the breeder gals weigh in here.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

From a breeder standpoint, the things that are bothering you aren't really things that scream RUN to me. It is a whole different mentality being a show breeder vs. a pet owner and I know this well because when I joined this forum, I was a totally novice pet owner who had never even heard of limited AKC registration before I got my first maltese. It is soooo much easier dealing with just a few pets than dealing with 5+ dogs!

Many show breeders crate their dogs (or have xpens) when they aren't available to watch them 24/7. Typically this is the safest way to keep them so I wouldn't be saying RUN if I heard a breeders dogs were being crated. Now an outside kennel would make me think twice but if the dogs are kept in the house and it doesn't smell like the pens are never cleaned and everyone has food and water and are not deadlocked messes, I wouldn't run away, personally. 

At 6 mos, this was probably a puppy that was kept for show but for whatever reason, is being placed a pet. Some coats can be NIGHTMARES to deal with so shaving again is not a red flag to me, especially since I've done that on more than one occasion. I've also given some pretty horrific haircuts when I think I'm the only one who will be witnessing the tragic grooming job. I don't shave to the total skin though but I know some do. 

Also, some lines are more prone to tear staining than others and it's not necessarily a reflection on how the breeder takes care of their dogs since many pet owners have trouble clearing up staining on ONE dog and it can be pretty difficult to clear it up (and keep it clear) for multiple dogs. 

The thing that jumps out to me is that this doesn't seem to be a temperament that you are wanting. Temperament is not all 'learned' from how they were raised, it is something that they are born with, more or less. For some breeders, it's easier to socialize puppies than others. I socialize my pups by throwing them at my kids and their friends when I get a chance but not everybody can do that. And some puppies will be shy no matter how much socialization they get as a puppy while others can be total and complete friendly spazzes when they were born and raised in a puppy mill with very minimal human contact. There is no one answer that fits all, unfortunately!

So some questions would be if the breeder communicated the softer temperament? Did you let them know that you were wanting a more outgoing pup and they tried to 'sell' you one who is clearly not outgoing? Some puppies have the 'stranger danger' thing going on but typically, you want to see a puppy confident in his/her own home. Also, did they let you know that the puppy was shaved down ahead of time? Is the puppy the same price as a 12 week old pup? If so, that is something that I would have a little bit of issue with. 

One thing also to consider is that a bad haircut can make even the most stunning maltese look horrific. I got a dog returned to me and the haircut was so unflattering, I didn't think it was even the right dog. There was nothing cute about the way he looked - it was really shocking! So I would ask if the coat was an easy coat to deal with and then you can decide about growing it back out a little. 

feel free to pm me with any questions!


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Lisa-Maria said:


> I recently visited a breeder after doing tons of research and thinking that I knew what a responsible breeder was. This breeder has been breeding for decades, shows dogs, and other reputable breeders have used this breeder's dogs to sire puppies. The breeder's FB page had beautiful puppies/dogs.. I could go on and on..... Let's just say that this breeder looked "good on paper". Now after my visit I am just confused on whether I expected to much ??? So I have a some questions on what I observed. Can you please tell me if my concerns are normal??
> 
> 1. The puppy basically lived in his crate. He was not socialized to people because he was shy and scared when I picked him up. He also trembled when I held him. He was definitely not comfortable being picked up and held.
> 
> ...


I have said many times and I think it is worth repeating that learning if someone is a show breeder who has a reputable reputation is the beginning, not the end of the research. Every puppy buyer should match up their own ethical expectations and also their own comfort level with a breeder. 

I do think you are doing it the right way. Learning as much as you can and as you go through the process your expectations may change, but in the end hopefully you will see what you are comfortable with and become as informed as possible. 

You were the one who was there and if the situation was not comfortable for you, then that is your experience and you should likely go with your instincts. 

However, for the question of were your expectations too high, I think it is important to think about how living with many dogs is a different experience than living with a smaller number. 

When people come to my house, I am afraid my little clan swarms them wanting attention. They do eventually calm down, but it takes time. https://www.facebook.com/CloudClanMaltese/videos/vb.269746156401550/910225722353587/?type=3&theater 

I know many breeders do keep their dogs crated for such occasions, so that guests are not inundated like that. Some breeders also use crating to prevent fights between dogs. Breeding males will often fight with other males if the girls are in heat. Girls fight sometimes as well. The more dogs the less harmonious it can sometimes be. Different breeders use crates in different ways. Many breeders I know give dogs free run of some rooms during the day, but crate at night. 

I personally do not take puppies in for 8 week shots but prefer to do those at home because I feel this exposes them to potential hazards at the clinic. But different breeders do have different shot schedules. The important thing is that the breeder has had the puppy vet checked. No puppy should ever be sold without a vet check. For a puppy that is 6 months old though, usually they do need to have rabies and that has to be done by a vet. I would also look into bile acid tests at that age. Many breeders do not do them, but you can make this request. 

I am not a fan of shaving Maltese to the skin, but I know a lot of people take dogs down with a 10 blade after they finish their show careers. If a puppy was held for show, but is being sold now as a 6 month old, the coat would often have been cut. Some breeders are better at haircuts than others. Most do groom their own though as it is very expensive to hire a groomer for that many dogs. I have gotten better at giving my own haircuts due to some help from friends who are pros, but again, breeders are usually not professional groomers, so sometimes the haircuts will look more amateurish. Often a bad haircut will make a puppy that is beautiful look underwhelming. A lot can change with a better haircut. 

Tearstaining is the nemesis of Maltese owners. It happens to the best of us. A six month old puppy may still be teething and so more prone than others. 

I do not feed ProPlan, but I know many breeders that I respect do. It would not be my choice, but I would not rule out a breeder based on this food choice. 

I think the biggest concern would be the temperament. I don't know if it is true that this puppy has lived in a pen his whole life, but I will say I had a puppy that was fine and confident for his youth and was socialized. But when my friends and her family came to my house to visit at 5 months all the sudden he was hiding in corners. He was going through a fear period that surprised us. I will admit all my other dogs went nuts like in that video, so it may have been scary for him to see all that chaos. He is still a cautious puppy, but I think he has adjusted well to his new home despite this surprising shift in his reactions to new situations. 

So again, you should go with your gut, if you were not comfortable, then move on. But do try to consider what expectations you may wish to adjust as you learn more about how breeders live and also what expectations you think are reasonable for you and what you want to hang on to.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Lisa, I do not think you are expecting too much..I would look somewhere else. I do not think you would be happy with this puppy. Not all show breeders keep their dogs like this and feed Purina ProPlan. There are several good breeders in Florida..I would move on..


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I, personally, would not feel comfortable getting a dog from this breeder according to the information you have shared with us. A well socialized dog is a good thing to consider when looking. Best wishes to you as you seek the right dog---stay with your heart convictions.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

My biggest concern would be the temperament. If at six months, the puppy is really timid, chances are he may remain so. My friend bought a five month pup from an AMA breeder with champion lines. The puppy didn't really let anyone pick her up or touch her at the breeders house. My friend bought her anyway. The dog is now four years old and is still very shy. I have been to a number of breeder's homes in Florida. Some are spotless, and you would never know dogs lived there, others have smelled of potty pads and the noise level has been unbearable. It is very common for breeders to keep dogs crated, but certainly not all the time. I go to many Florida dog shows and have heard of the breeder you mentioned. I have never heard anything bad about her, but if you are uncomfortable with this breeder, go elsewhere. There are many good breeders here. Btw, I also live fairly close to you.


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm not someone who breeds dogs, but common sense & someone who has bought and owned different breeds of dogs most of my life, would tell me things don't feel or look right. Too many red flags that would concern me & might lead to issues down the road that I don't want to take on, if it's my choice to choose.

As far as the ProPlan, I have bought retired show dogs (Shelties) from a well known breeder in California (who wrote a book on Shelties & Showing). She fed all of her dogs on Pro Plan and also recommended it to me. I fed Brandy that food until she passed at the age of 14 1/2 years old and she never had any health issues. So the food would be the least of my worries of what you saw & felt.

I think if your gut tells you something is not what you are expecting or you feel something just doesn't seem quiet right to you, then listen to your gut!

I'm sure you will find the right breeder and dog! Good luck with your search!


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Like others have already said, I think the biggest challenge is if the personality is right for you. At 6 months, the personality is usually a good indicator of the future personality. I got my Waffle and Nibbler when they were older 6+ months. Nibbler was very shy when I got him and he was shy to the day he passed. Waffle was super outgoing when I got him - when I picked him up from the airport, he came out jumping and licking my face and he has never met me prior. To this day, Waffle is a super happy dog not afraid of strangers. 

I believe some of the other concerns you mentioned are not uncommon when a breeder has more dogs. I have been to a breeder that kept her dogs in a separate house outside her home (she also had dogs in the house). The dogs were in rows and rows of crates which was a shocking sight for me to see - but they all had food and water, was clean, etc. 

I think the only way around it is to go to a breeder with fewer dogs if it is important that they are cared for like pets. I think realistically when a breeder has 20+ dogs ... there is no choice but to crate them. When I get my next Maltese, I really want to get her from a smaller scale breeder.


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## Lisa-Maria (May 9, 2015)

Thank you ladies for all your replies. I am a teacher and things have been crazy for the past couple of weeks (end of year madness) but now I'm back and continuing my search. I ended up not getting the puppy because the temperament was really not what I was looking for. So I had to get over my "rescue" the poor pup mentality and walk away. 

I'm still looking. As a matter of fact I went to see a puppy at a breeder yesterday. The puppy is 12 weeks old and right after I fell in love the breeder disclosed that it has an open fontanel and undescended testicles :smilie_tischkante: So now I am trying to figure out if those are issues to be concerned about. Does anyone have experience with this?


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## Lisa-Maria (May 9, 2015)

Carina, I would love to be "attacked" by all the maltese puppies at your house! I'm completely jealous of all the love your visitor received.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Sylie said:


> Please don't fall victim to giving a puppy a better life. I understand the concept, and I know it is hard to resist, but doing so, just ends up putting money into the hands of people who are not doing well by their dogs. You deserve to have a happy, healthy, socialized puppy. Or you could rescue.
> 
> Most of the show breeders with whom I am familiar, cut down their dogs as soon as they are finished showing. But, cut down is not shaved. The only reason to shave a dog, is because a long period of neglect made it necessary...or maybe because you just don't care, and shaving is easier than a nice cut.
> 
> There is no reason to be afraid to name the breeder, as long as everything you said is true. It would be unethical to simply slam a breeder for some personal reason, but telling your experience can be helpful.



i know that temptation ,yes the puppy will have a better life but it sentences the other remaining dogs to a sadder life..as they'll keep breeding..


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## lydiatug (Feb 21, 2012)

Why start your maltese journey with obvious problems? Find a reputable breeder with a healthy pup, they're worth waiting for.


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## Lisa-Maria (May 9, 2015)

Michelle, I do agree with you but it was hard to walk away (which I did). 

Lydia I do agree with you, I am just so frustrated because I have been looking for a long time.


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## lydiatug (Feb 21, 2012)

I totally understand, but you will be so happy when you find just the right one, I promise!!! 

Wishful thinking makes me check my favorite breeders websites every now and then...I've seen several that have pups available and/or litters expected. 

I'm pretty sure there are several in FL you could check with, and if you don't mind having someone transport for you, there's always that option. With facetime and such, many of them will allow you to have a virtual visit as well as work with you to find the best personality for your home. My breeder brought Georgie to me herself and it was only the cost of the plane ticket. I would find a breeder you respect and have them help you in your search. Almost as important to me in finding the right dog is finding the right breeder that will support you for the life of the pet. I wish you the best in your search!


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## Houdini’smom (11 mo ago)

Lisa-Maria said:


> I recently visited a breeder after doing tons of research and thinking that I knew what a responsible breeder was. This breeder has been breeding for decades, shows dogs, and other reputable breeders have used this breeder's dogs to sire puppies. The breeder's FB page had beautiful puppies/dogs.. I could go on and on..... Let's just say that this breeder looked "good on paper". Now after my visit I am just confused on whether I expected to much ??? So I have a some questions on what I observed. Can you please tell me if my concerns are normal??
> 
> 1. The puppy basically lived in his crate. He was not socialized to people because he was shy and scared when I picked him up. He also trembled when I held him. He was definitely not comfortable being picked up and held.
> 
> ...


Run run run!


Lisa-Maria said:


> I recently visited a breeder after doing tons of research and thinking that I knew what a responsible breeder was. This breeder has been breeding for decades, shows dogs, and other reputable breeders have used this breeder's dogs to sire puppies. The breeder's FB page had beautiful puppies/dogs.. I could go on and on..... Let's just say that this breeder looked "good on paper". Now after my visit I am just confused on whether I expected to much ??? So I have a some questions on what I observed. Can you please tell me if my concerns are normal??
> 
> 1. The puppy basically lived in his crate. He was not socialized to people because he was shy and scared when I picked him up. He also trembled when I held him. He was definitely not comfortable being picked up and held.
> 
> ...


run run run!
1. a breeder should have clean areas for all his dogs and puppy play areas so puppy’s can stretch their legs and develop muscles and “rules” of being a dog with other puppies. Puppies may have crates they sleep in at night and the breeder may want to have a separate play pen so your little guy stays looking his best for when u come to see him. Puppy play pens don’t cost that much when you compare the price of what most breeders want these days….no offense to breeders. Nice dogs take work and money.
2. puppy pads should be clean. I use the kind you was in a washing machine. one of the puppy‘s parent may not be the friendliest….when I bought my male the mother grabbed my pants and would have bit me if I had shorts on. She was protecting mom. 
3. Whelping areas may not be accessible because puppies could become sick. A breeder doesn’t know who has what and if your dog has had shots or been in an area carrying a transmittable disease. Can’t say I blame them there. But females being kept where they live should be accessible.
4. MThe fact that the puppy was stripped of his coat and had bad tear stains speaks to poor grooming of the puppy, and his shaking and fear kind of the same. Could you have picked a dog that was just that way naturally….well without everything else to go with it I would say maybe…..but everything else says this breeder needs to be reported for possible abuse and at the very least hoarding and unable to care for these animals properly.
Just my opinion.

This sounds like a puppy mill.
They bank on the puppy tugging at your heartstrings and you buying it. They could not care less for this animal. They don’t deserve them. I let myself get into this situation and poor Nash….it took him a year to not be so afraid for me to pick him up. He had never been picked up…ever. He had never touched grass. I don’t remember all of the things that were first’s for him, but it was so sad. God put him in my life and I in his. He repaid me many times over when I recovered from a brain tumor and he stayed by my side. Many days he was like glue, stuck to my side as I held him or rested with a hand on him. It gave me so much comfort and eased some of my pain.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

I looked at her other posts. She did decide against this dog. (This thread is from 2015.) She got another male, very fluffy in his pictures, and she said he had a good personality. I hope they have had a nice life together. She hasn't been active on this forum since 2017. 

Reading all the old posts has made me nostalgic ...


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Houdini'smom, I just wanted to add that your Nash sounds like the most wonderful companion! 🥰 

And your ideas about the environment a good breeder should provide are probably still "spot on" so to speak.


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## Houdini’smom (11 mo ago)

Well duh for me. New to this and didn’t look at a date…still someone else may see this and be curious so guess me and my big mouth maybe helps a little…but I was having one of my bad word days and it came out a little jumbled. 🤣


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