# Behavior Issues/Lack of Trust



## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

I'm kinda at a loss right now with Benny. I feel like I am failing him. I am having issues with him and people he doesnt' know. If he sees people on a walk or goes to someone's house or people come to our house that he doesn't know he gets very timid. He'll bark at them and then if someone tries to come near him he gets scared and tries to run away. I'm scared this behavior is going to turn into aggression. I have new people give him treats so he'll associate new people with treats (people=treats=good)...he'll take the treat but then act skittish again. If Benny knows you, then he LOVES you....no problem. Emma, on the other hand, is a social butterfly. I don't know if he acts like this b/c Emma is the dominant one in the house. 

I have done Clicker Training and Bark Busters. I am wondering if he needs training with group classes so he can be socialized better rather than in our house. I have called 2 different group class trainers and left messages.

Here are my questions:
-Do you think puppy daycare would help with his fear issues and better socialize him? 
-If yes, can I only have Benny do daycare and not Emma? How would that effect Emma? 
-Do you think group obedience classes would be better for Benny? 

I love Benny too much for him to be fearful of people all the time, and I obviously don't want this behavior to get worse. I feel like I failed him. I did Bark Busters and got the worst trainer. So now I really don't know if group classes or daycare will be the answer. I am feeling like a terrible parent right now. I am thankful that Emma is so outgoing and friendly but just wish Benny could have that same trust. Where did it all go wrong? What do you all think I should do?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

1. No I would not do a daycare for him. That would be "flooding" him and could be detrimental. 

3. I think group classes with a positive trainer would be great. If the trainer doesn't think he's ready, some private work first to get him ready would be a good plan. I would ask the trainer to evaluate him before joining class. 

We have to change his emotional response around strangers. For this, classical conditioning is an excellent approach. This is the "bar open"/"bar closed" idea. When a stranger is around at a distance, the treat bar opens and lots of yummy things come. You need to start at a distance Benny is comfortable - maybe across the street. Stranger appears, bar opens, stranger disappears, bar closes. Slowly decrease the distance doing the same exercise. Take it slow and keep him comfortable. If he has a look of panic or tries to run, decrease your distance. It should take a few weeks to get the stranger fairly close. 

When he is comfortable at a distance the stranger can toss treats to him, change the bar to being opened by the stranger who will walk by without making any eye contact or noise and just toss treats. 

NEVER let your stranger make eye contact. Never have your stranger walk directly at Benny. A curve is a nice, calm way to approach and leave a dog. Ask your stranger to yawn - this is a calming signal for the dog. You can also yawn. 

Your treats for this exercise should be of VERY HIGH value (is chicken, stinky fish treats, etc.) and your dog should be hungry (skip his previous meal). 

You will have to enlist friends and neighbors to be the stranger. You can also practice if people walk in your neighborhood and you can stay on the opposite side of the street and your dog is ok at that distance. Get this down ok outside your house before you try new places. Inside your house should be the last place you work because this is Benny's home and likely to induce the most anxiety.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Awww, Tammy, I know how you feel. 

The "A"'s will greet people for a second, but they're not overly friendly with strangers really. My friend also has a maltese who is sweet, but doesn't have anything to do with people she doesn't know. Maybe it's a trait of the breed......??

Oh, and If someone walks into our house, Tink will <strike>run</strike> sneak up to them and bite them!!!! :w00t: 
How's that for a "how-do-u-do"!!!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I just wanted to add something about expectations. Your expectation should be that Benny calmly tolerates strangers without being fearful. Don't expect him to be running up and jumping into new people's laps. 

I have a rather fear aggressive "rescue"...he sits nicely while people come into the house instead of biting them. But he'd never run up and say hello.


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## Dixie's Mama (Mar 19, 2008)

Hi Tammy, That sounds just like my Dixie. I read "On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas to which JMM referred. I highly recommend it. I am now telling Dixie to sit when she barks at people across the street whether she is inside or out. Then I tell her "Quiet" and ask her to stay. I give her a treat after she sits quietly for a small amount of time. I try to increase the time I want her to sit with each session. This was suggested months ago when we had a trainer come to the house. It was helping a tiny bit in FL but she was 13 wks. to 6 months then. I must admit with the drive up north I didn't keep it up because it wasn't needed daily. JMM's plan sounds great and I am going to try it if I can get someone to be the stranger consistently when we get to FL. I do the yawning and turn sideways to her if she is anxious to calm her down. It does work but you have to me very consistant. She is doing better. The test will be when we get to FL with all the sliders she can see out of. She barked at every neighbors' movement last year. I'm hoping her being a bit older will help. :HistericalSmiley:


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## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 01:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646841


> I just wanted to add something about expectations. Your expectation should be that Benny calmly tolerates strangers without being fearful. Don't expect him to be running up and jumping into new people's laps.
> 
> I have a rather fear aggressive "rescue"...he sits nicely while people come into the house instead of biting them. But he'd never run up and say hello.[/B]


THanks so much for your help. I was hoping to get a few responses from everyone. 

So with the treats....on walks when we see someone start giving him lots of high value treats? Slowly decreasing our distance to new people as days or weeks go by...all the while giving him treats when we see someone? What if the person starts walking towards us? Just keep giving him the treats? Also, should i work on just walking Benny by himself w/out Emma? 

I realize Benny will never be an "A" pesonality like Emma. I just want him to be ok and comfortable around people. I want him to have confidence. It breaks my heart to see him like this.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

If the person is walking towards you and you are not ready, you need to turn around and remove him (either add more distance or go in) BEFORE he gets worried. This is why setting him up with someone you know is really nice. 

Does he act fearful on walks? If so I would work on getting close in a situation where he is just hanging out and build up to him walking past. If he is not fearful on walks, yes, I would do the open bar anyways to continue reinforcing that positive emotional response (person=yummy stuff). 

Keep in mind as you begin that avoiding eliciting that fearful response will make your positive association stronger. So you might put him up when people come over or have him on a sit-stay or down-stay at a comfortable distance where you can toss treats to him. 

Jonathan, my nasty pants, was crated in the kitchen (back of the house) with someone tossing treats while the doorbell rang and I had someone come in and spoke with them. We slowly moved the crate closer and closer until he could see someone coming in and was getting his treats. Then we started doing an on-leash sit stay with him as far away from the door as you can get in our foyer. Same thing - cookies, cookies, cookies. Years later he does the sit stay reliably off leash while we invite new people in and he can then take a cookie from the new person. He stays at heel to one of us and/or on a sit-stay at a distance from the person while they're in our house. We do not encourage interaction with the person unless he is interested (rarely). He is pleasant, well-behaved, and not nervous.


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm totally in the same boat as you! Joshua is the same exact way, while Sophie is such a social butterfly, just like your Emma. Joshua is extremely timid; people are constantly over at my house, and he'll bark his head off at them. Whenever they try to approach him, he'll cower away. Whenever he's held by someone he doesn't know too well, his eyes will only be fixed on me, following my every move. I have my friends give him yummy treats, too (all the time), and as soon as he gets the treat, he'll run away from them. I make sure strangers don't ever look him in the eye, too. I don't take my dogs out on walks, but I do take them out with me a lot (to visit friends, family, hang at coffee shops, etc.), and all Joshua wants to do is sit on my lap, or sit under my chair. He'll go off and explore with Sophie every now and then, but he comes back within minutes to make sure I'm still there. I asked my vet about his behavior, and he just said that some dogs are born shy, while others are born with a more outgoing personality, like my Sophie. 

I think Jackie has offered some great advice, and I'll definitely try it out. Finding a stranger will be no problem, too. :biggrin:


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm very interested in this discussion also. My two have started barking their heads off at people and other dogs when I take them out for a walk. This started soon after a golden barrelled over to them off leash and scared the begesus out of all three of us. He wasn't threatening, just came out of nowhere.

They also bark at everyone who comes in the house. Annie's bark is saying I'm so excited your here let's play. On the other hand, Sophie's bark sounds a bit menacing and usually makes people back away or at least not want to approach her. But, if I scoop her up I can hand her straight over to them and then she is fine, wanting to smell their faces and lick their hands. I've been working with her on that and she is to the point where she will timidly accept treats from visitors. But, they still bark like lunatics if it's someone who doesn't come over often. Sophie also growls the whole time she and Annie are playing. I used to think she was upset and it was going to turn into a fight, but it turns out that's just what she does when playing.

But, outside on walks. Does the treat bar open as soon as we see someone/another dog even if they've started to bark already. They can spot someone a mile away. I've been reversing direction when this happens, which makes them stop barking for the moment, but not working out in the long run. 

Do I have to distract them, calm them, and then treat? Or do I use the treat as the distraction? 

Annie is usually so excited I can't get her attention. She still hasn't gotten to the point where she knows to pay attention to what I'm doing. She's in her own world most of the time. But, if I have treats all eyes are on me. Sophie is usually still paying attention to me when outside and I can mostly distract her with a watch me. She's gotten worse since Annie's come to us, though.

Most days I don't even feel like taking them out front for a walk, but I've been determined these last couple of weeks.

The other day though we were out and they started barking at the Golden who had charged them (just wanting to play) and the owner had him on a leash and hollered nicely across the street to me "Oh, I'll just take him back in." I felt so bad I tried to holler back to please not that I was trying to get them out and about and used to people and other dogs, but she went in anyway. 

The weird thing though is that there is one man who comes out to do yard work a lot whom I've only spoken to once or twice while out with the girls and they never bark at him. His daughter who lives in Florida has two malts whom we've never seen. I wonder what it is about him that they are okay with that's different from the other people on our street.

Thanks for letting me hijack the thread. Sorry.

Linda


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 01:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646831


> 1. No I would not do a daycare for him. That would be "flooding" him and could be detrimental.
> 
> 3. I think group classes with a positive trainer would be great. If the trainer doesn't think he's ready, some private work first to get him ready would be a good plan. I would ask the trainer to evaluate him before joining class.
> 
> ...


Wow! JMM, you never cease to amaze me with your wealth of knowledge and expertise!!! You are always amazing and I always feel like I learn SO SO much by reading your posts!! 

Tam, you know I don't have professional advice to offer you since I am a maltese novice..hehe...but I am willing to enlist myself as your "stranger" in Benny training!!! hehe..I love Benny too and it makes me sad to see you sad...let me know if you need help, I am here!! love ya babe! :grouphug:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (Sophie @ Oct 7 2008, 10:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647218


> They also bark at everyone who comes in the house. Annie's bark is saying I'm so excited your here let's play. On the other hand, Sophie's bark sounds a bit menacing and usually makes people back away or at least not want to approach her. But, if I scoop her up I can hand her straight over to them and then she is fine, wanting to smell their faces and lick their hands. I've been working with her on that and she is to the point where she will timidly accept treats from visitors. But, they still bark like lunatics if it's someone who doesn't come over often. Sophie also growls the whole time she and Annie are playing. I used to think she was upset and it was going to turn into a fight, but it turns out that's just what she does when playing.[/B]



As far as growling during play - that is normal dog behavior so long as her body language is playful. I rewarded growling while tugging so my dogs sound like they want to kill somebody...but they're just playing. 

Think about this...you are 9 inches tall and I am 6 ft tall. Would you want to approach me? Now you are picked up and are 4 1/2 ft tall...much less threatening to be passed along, isn't it? 

As for the barking, teaching them a quiet cue would be ideal. I do this by using an interrupter (loud "eh") and then asking for an incompatible behavior. It might be a down, sitting at the kitchen counter for a treat, holding a toy, rolling over, etc. You will have to be creative and figure it out for each dog. You need to work with each dog individually until they are very, very solid with their quiet behavior. Until then, management will be key. Just tell you guest through the door you have to put the dogs up. Put them up in their kennels in another room for a cookie). 

A tool that you may find useful is a Gentle Leader head collar. The gentle pressure on top of the nose is a calming signal to dogs. In addition, you have the ability to "get their head" with a gentle movement on the leash. Many dogs also take it down a notch with the GL on. This can help reduce the frenzy level you experience. 



QUOTE


> But, outside on walks. Does the treat bar open as soon as we see someone/another dog even if they've started to bark already. They can spot someone a mile away. I've been reversing direction when this happens, which makes them stop barking for the moment, but not working out in the long run.
> 
> Do I have to distract them, calm them, and then treat? Or do I use the treat as the distraction?
> 
> Annie is usually so excited I can't get her attention. She still hasn't gotten to the point where she knows to pay attention to what I'm doing. She's in her own world most of the time. But, if I have treats all eyes are on me. Sophie is usually still paying attention to me when outside and I can mostly distract her with a watch me. She's gotten worse since Annie's come to us, though.[/B]



You need to set up so that you are far enough away that you have their attention before they react. Start working at that distance. That may be quite far away. The GL can help here in reducing the frenzy, keeping the calm, and ensuring you have the dog's head. Once again you need to do set ups with each dog individually. They needs to go through the process alone before starting over with both of them. Dogs feed off each other and this may be why Annie's addition seems to have worsened things. You now have twice the work, but if you get a solid basis and work through it, you can make massive progress. Don't hesitate to seek help from a good trainer in person. They should be recommending a program similar to what I have recommended, focusing on rewarding good behavior.


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## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

Well it certainly sounds like there are a few of us in a similar situation. JMM...thank you so much for all your suggestions. I am going to work up a plan using your advice and also just ordered 2 books (On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals and The Cautious Canine). I will also get a Gentle Leader. I heard back from a trainer who said she'll charge $225 for one 2 hour session and 30 day email support. I don't think I'll be using her lol. 

JMM....when you say put them up....can you just clarify that for me? Do you mean put them in another room with no one else around? And then do you ignore them until they calm down? 

And Alice...thank you...I would totally appreciate it if you can be our "stranger." That's one of the hardest parts...finding someone who can help train with me. My neighbors and I aren't that close where I can ask them for help. Let us know when you are available!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

By put them up, I happily have my dogs go in their kennels for a treat. In my house in VA I keep the kennels in the kitchen which is the back of the house so they're nowhere near the front door. In our townhouse in TN, it is upstairs in our room. It is a management issue. You don't want them to be able to do that behavior they want (bark and such at the person). I expect them to bark (they're bright and can hear me letting someone in), but I don't want them to do that icky behavior in front of the person while I'm working on fixing it. Each time they do it it is rewarding. The less they can, the better. 

My rate is $75/hr and I provide free e-mail follow up. I tell people to anticipate the first session being 2-3 hours (depending on the problem) and at least one follow up (again, depending on the problem). I also require a recent vet visit and a copy of that record for my records. I will not see a dog who has bitten a person or cause serious injury to another animal. I refer those to a veterinarian who is boarded in behavioral medicine. I am not expensive as far as Northern VA prices go...many charge more than I do. Any trainer doing anything other than basic obedience is going to be at least in this price range.


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## marleysmom (Apr 16, 2008)

Unfortunately, I have no advice to offer on training as I'm still figuring that one out. But I did want to tell you not to blame yourself. You have been the same Mommy with the same parenting to both of your pups and Benny just has a different personality. You are doing what you need to to learn how to help him and that is a GREAT Mommy in my book! :grouphug:


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## caligirlinpa (Oct 14, 2008)

I know how you feel Tammy. My little Molly is like this as well. I just took her to the beach (Outer Banks) two weeks ago. She was so adorable but she barked at all the seagulls that went by which was a lot and chased them which was cute. Every dog or even just some random people walking that came by she would bark at. There was this yorkie not on a leash Mols was barking at and he came over friendly and Molly got scared and ran behind me. Her heart was pounding when I picked her up. I only get to see her on the weekends because she is a family dog but she seems more protective around me. I picked her up and she spent a whole day alone with me before she went home to my family thats over an hour away. I think this may be a reason for this. When I come home she only wants to be around me and when anyone goes near me that isnt in the family she growls. I mean it was cute at first but now it needs to stop


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

I wanted to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion.


Max was very much like this early on. At the first sign of company, as an example, he would run away and go out to the back yard ... and then stand that the sliding patio door and watch what was going on inside very carefully.

If you had an argument... or even just spoke with some passion in your voice, Max would run right outside. Anything which caused the least bit of stress for him... out the door...

We never did any sort of intensive training with him other than a basic puppy training... where Max would look for any means to escape and then make a run for it.

I think we have a pattern here...

We did try and use these situations as training moments whenever we could. I've usually asked that any guest in our how give him a little attention and early on we did give them treats to hand out.

Well, Max just had his 5th birthday a couple days ago and I want to report he is now MUCH better about these situations. He is generally happy to meet new people now and ESPECIALLY if they acknowledge him. He now tolerates the vacuum cleaner although he still will go to the other side of the room.

Anyway... he now runs outside fairly rarely, although with the work we have done recently in the house.... He especially did not like the recip saw that I used in here one day...  

Oh well...


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## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

Just wanted to update everyone on Benny and his training. I have researched and researched and found a trainer. I know that I am the type of person who need someone to guide me thru training. I had an hour conversation w/her on the phone the other day. She basically reinforced everything JMM said to me as well as others. She will be coming to our house tomorrow evening and working on desensitization exercises. What I liked about her is that once Benny is at a good level w/the exercises at home, our follow up sessions can be at parks, shopping centers, etc. The trainer will not only help me w/Benny at home but when he is ready (which obviously can be a few weeks or months down the road) she will help me practice w/him in public. This is very important to me. The trainer is also a CPDT which makes me a little more confident than some of the past trainers I used. 

I'll be sure to post tomorrow or Sunday on how the first session went. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions!


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

Yay! I hope his first session tomorrow goes well.

Good luck, and please be sure to keep us updated on Benny's progress.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Wonderful! I'm glad you found someone to help in person.


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## SueC (May 23, 2007)

I bet we all get some more training tips through this. I'll follow your story.


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## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

Ok had our 1st session tonight w/our new trainer. :smheat: I have a lot of info and definitley feeling overwhelmed. Ok...here's the rundown. The trainer asked me to put Benny in a room before she got there where he coudln't see her. Once he was settled she had me bring him out. Of course he started barking at her, so back in the kitchen he went. Once he calmed down again, i brought him back out, he barked, went back in the kitchen again. Once calm he came back out and this time he settled down with her, no problem. She explained this process as eliminating the chance for Benny to get fearful in her presence. We basically did an hour and 1/2 of Benny's history and her explaining to me the desensitization protocols. It all made a lot of sense to me. We did not do many exercises w/Benny...more just going over how I will put Benny in a room when company comes, and then bring him out at a distance, try to give him a cue such as down or sit with his attention on me and not on the stranger. Once comfortable move him closer and closer to the stranger over time. If he reacts then I'm to separate him again back to the other room and try again once he is calmer. Sounds confusing, but at the same time makes sense when I really think about it. 

On Monday she will have a complete write up for me to follow for Benny which I am to practice at home and then the following week she would like to have our session in the park. There we will practice seeing strangers at a distance w/me learning how to get him to do a down stay while the stranger is at a distance. 

I know others are following this thread to work w/their dogs, and I'm sorry that it's hard to explain. The trainer actually is teaching me everything JMM has put in this thread. And Jackie has such a better way of explaining it than me. I will keep you all updated on the progress we make though. 

The good news is she doesn't feel Benny's fear issues are very advanced at all, that it is early enough that I can hopefully expect to see progress as long as I'm committed. Our goal in the training is to have Benny comfortable in the presence of strangers and attention on me when out in public. He may never love strangers like Emma does, but our goal is that he won't be agitated or unsure in their presence. 

I promise to update and explain his progress the best I can! Thanks again for all your support!


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## 08chrissy08 (Sep 19, 2008)

QUOTE


> Ok had our 1st session tonight w/our new trainer. I have a lot of info and definitley feeling overwhelmed. Ok...here's the rundown. The trainer asked me to put Benny in a room before she got there where he coudln't see her. Once he was settled she had me bring him out. Of course he started barking at her, so back in the kitchen he went. Once he calmed down again, i brought him back out, he barked, went back in the kitchen again. Once calm he came back out and this time he settled down with her, no problem. She explained this process as eliminating the chance for Benny to get fearful in her presence. We basically did an hour and 1/2 of Benny's history and her explaining to me the desensitization protocols. It all made a lot of sense to me. We did not do many exercises w/Benny...more just going over how I will put Benny in a room when company comes, and then bring him out at a distance, try to give him a cue such as down or sit with his attention on me and not on the stranger. Once comfortable move him closer and closer to the stranger over time. If he reacts then I'm to separate him again back to the other room and try again once he is calmer. Sounds confusing, but at the same time makes sense when I really think about it.
> 
> On Monday she will have a complete write up for me to follow for Benny which I am to practice at home and then the following week she would like to have our session in the park. There we will practice seeing strangers at a distance w/me learning how to get him to do a down stay while the stranger is at a distance.
> 
> ...


Wonderful! It sounds like you've found a great trainer. I hope things progress well for you and Benny!


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## amanda (Jun 13, 2008)

wow that sounds exactly like what VICTORIA STILWELL on "It's me, or the Dog" does in cases like this... i have yet to try it but it's nice to know that it actally works :yahoo: anyway whoever is interested the show is on animal planet and victoria gives a lot of great advice through her show so for whoever is interested definitely tune in to animal planet anf for all the mommy's with angels the show is definitely still fun to watch !!
anyway goog luck to you and benny :Good luck: and your post was great and easily understandable so thank you too


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

That sounds spot on for him! I'm soooo pleased for you.


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## 08chrissy08 (Sep 19, 2008)

QUOTE


> wow that sounds exactly like what VICTORIA STILWELL on "It's me, or the Dog" does in cases like this... i have yet to try it but it's nice to know that it actally works anyway whoever is interested the show is on animal planet and victoria gives a lot of great advice through her show so for whoever is interested definitely tune in to animal planet anf for all the mommy's with angels the show is definitely still fun to watch !!
> anyway goog luck to you and benny and your post was great and easily understandable so thank you too[/B]


I watch that show all the time. I like her methods a lot, the positive reinforcement and the way she handles the dogs. I've noticed that JMM's advice is very similar to a lot of what Victoria does and I love that we have her here for advice!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (08chrissy08 @ Oct 19 2008, 06:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=653778


> QUOTE





> wow that sounds exactly like what VICTORIA STILWELL on "It's me, or the Dog" does in cases like this... i have yet to try it but it's nice to know that it actally works anyway whoever is interested the show is on animal planet and victoria gives a lot of great advice through her show so for whoever is interested definitely tune in to animal planet anf for all the mommy's with angels the show is definitely still fun to watch !!
> anyway goog luck to you and benny and your post was great and easily understandable so thank you too[/B]


I watch that show all the time. I like her methods a lot, the positive reinforcement and the way she handles the dogs. I've noticed that JMM's advice is very similar to a lot of what Victoria does and I love that we have her here for advice!
[/B][/QUOTE]

I also enjoy the show! I think her kind methods are safe for anyone to try.


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