# how long does hair have to be before you can put a bow in it?



## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

i'm excited to do up Alice's hair :wub: so i was wondering how long it has to be to put bows in it. she'll be 10-11 weeks old when i get her :blush: so i'm not sure how long her hair will be. will i be able to put bows in around week 13 or 14 once she gets settled in? thanks


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I would start with just using a band to make a topknot before adding bows. Get her used to having her head and hair brushed and the feel of a topknot first. Her hair doesn't have to be very long to catch it up in a band.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks. where can you get the bands? does walmart carry them? are they like the small, simple black ones?


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

Alice should be 12 weeks or older when you take her home. Hopefully you are getting her from a reputable breeder who follows this guideline (I haven't heard who you're getting her from).

She probably won't have quite enough hair to make a big topknot when you get her, so usually you just put a band in and make a little mini-ponytail until it gets longer. If you try to put a bow in right away, she will probably shake/scratch/rub it out. Marj (Lady'sMom) makes single topknot bows that are a good size for smaller pups as they are lighter weight. Also, you can try the "pixie pairs" since those are even smaller.  You can slowly work her up to accepting having a bow in her hair by first getting her used to the bands alone, and then by putting a bow on for a few minutes at a time.


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

Alice Ana said:


> thanks. where can you get the bands? does walmart carry them? are they like the small, simple black ones?


Bands that are not actual grooming bands for dogs are generally too large and they also will break the hair.

You can order grooming bands from Show Off Products

They have been my favorite (although London doesn't have a topknot anymore). I buy the Medium size 5/16" Fine Weight bands. They come in either Black or Yellow.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks  i have actually already purchased bows from petsmart. some of them clip in and are kind of heavy. the other actually come with a band. apparently they fall apart though :/ i took one out to look at it and it fell apart on me pretty quickly. i kept the rubber band and bow so i could glue everything back together. i'll go out and buy some bands when i get my license. thanks again.

if you check out my introduction post, it might help you understand my situation a little :/ the best breeder with reasonable prices (my parents will not let me "waste" my money on a dog) was in Missouri (5hrs and 35mins away).  we even asked them to hold her an extra week. they are going to. i do have a lot of questions to ask them... even though my mom said not to bug them :/ i just want to know their reasons for selling their puppies so early and i want to meet the parents and i want to know so much more about their background. apparently they're an old couple who have only been breeding for about 4 years..


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

Alice Ana said:


> if you check out my introduction post, it might help you understand my situation a little :/ the best breeder with reasonable prices (my parents will not let me "waste" my money on a dog) was in Missouri (5hrs and 35mins away).  we even asked them to hold her an extra week. they are going to. i do have a lot of questions to ask them... even though my mom said not to bug them :/ i just want to know their reasons for selling their puppies so early and i want to meet the parents and i want to know so much more about their background. apparently they're an old couple who have only been breeding for about 4 years..


ASK THEM away. :thumbsup:What's the worse that happen? Nothing. Breeders don't mind if you bug them. If they DON'T want to answer your questions, then I would be skeptical. LOL I purposefully turned away puppies from top show breeders and went to a tiny breeder in NC for my Gigi just because she was very easy to contact, I could contact with anything at anytime and she always had all the answers. You're about to make a HUGE and important investment, you don't want to make a mistake. If you "get in trouble" with your mother, its worth it. LOL


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

The little bands are orthodontic bands. I don't know where you can buy them other than online. Maybe if you know a dentist locally? 
I do hope you reconsider and call around to some showbreeders to see what they can offer you at the price you can afford. I'm so afraid you will wind up paying so much more in vet bills if the pup comes from a home where pedigrees are not studied and breedings
are done to improve the breed, rather than just to have pups and sell. There are so many serious illnesses and problems that can arise from backyard breeders (greeders). 
Does your mom realize that there are shots (rabies vaccine and parvo among others) that need to be given to the pup after you get her? It's a must. Also, premium dog food is important. Grocery store dog food is not for these little dogs.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Oh, dear. Missouri is known as the Puppymill Capital of the US because there are more puppymills there than in any other state.

Have you checked to make sure your breeders name isn't on the USDA "puppymill" list?

http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/ListA2006.pdf

I can promise you that if you get a puppymill puppy, you will have huge vet bills over its lifetime which may not be very long. It is not a "waste" to spend a little more to get a puppy from a reputable breeder. It will be the best investment you ever made.

Sadly, some people spend $1,000 in vet bills in the first few weeks on puppy mill puppies. If the puppy has a genetic condition like a liver shunt or slipped kneecaps, you will have to spend several thousand dollars on surgery.

"Bargain" puppies can cost you a fortune in vet bills and break your heart. You also will get a puppy who grows up to be pretty far from the Maltese standard. Dogs weighing double digits with curly coats are common as larger Bichons are often mixed in. There is no guarentee your puppy will even be purebred. What registry does this breeder use? There are lots of "alternative" registries out there besides the AKC which aren't worth the paper they are printed on.


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> Oh, dear. Missouri is known as the Puppymill Capital of the US because there are more puppymills there than in any other state.
> 
> Have you checked to make sure your breeders name isn't on the USDA "puppymill" list?
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks everyone (again!) for all the info. i used to have braces, so we have a LOT of bands from that too.
and yes, my mom knows all about vaccinations. here is Alice's current info (she's 8 days old): Registered/registrable (AKC, NKC, etc.), Current vaccinations, Veterinarian examination, Health certificate, Health guarantee.
we know all about shots and are going to take her to the vet within 72 hours of getting her. my mom and dad have had many pets in the passed (our current 5 year old dog, Greta (wiener dog..), was cheaper than the Maltese i'm getting and had no papers :/ ). they do know a lot on the shots and which ones to get and which ones to avoid. we already have our vet picked out. they are great with pets and really know their stuff. it doesn't hurt that they're pretty close to us either  all of our animals go to this vet.

i guess the best thing to do now is ask questions and be prepared.
i checked the whole puppymill list. wow, it almost made me sick to look at it. luckily, our breeder is NOT on the list. it was a long search though 

i honestly think the reason the price is so low is because they are older and are not planning on making a profit out of breeding dogs. i checked all the other puppies they had and i only saw about 4 or 5. in addition, they had excellent reviews by people purchasing other dogs from them (i made sure none were bad or i wasn't going for this breeder). here is a tiny bit of info about how they raise their dogs:
"_We are a small kennel all dogs are inside with outside runs. We are
USDA inspected and the dogs are played with often. We are retired and just
love dealing with the dogs they are part of our family.All puppies have
shots up to date."

_this looked okay to me for just a short summary. ? :/ 

here is the contract:


*These terms and conditions are entered into and agreed upon by both Breeder and Buyer, who acknowledge the moral and legal worth of this contract. **AGREEMENT*

*The Breeder transfers all rights, privileges and responsibilities associated with the ownership of puppy to the Buyer with the following condition subsequent.*
*(1) Deposit of $150.00 on execution of agreement. Final payment to be made on or before the puppy leaves the Breeders premises. If the balance is not paid this agreement shall be cancelled and the Buyer forfeits the deposit given hereunder.*
*(2) Breeder warrants that the puppy is in good health and has received appropriate medical care and worming at the time Buyer assumes ownership. The puppy has been examined by a licensed Veterinarian with a clean bill of health. All appropriate shots for the puppy’s age have been given and a record of this vaccination history is supplied.*
*(3) If, as a result of the examination, the Veterinarian determines that the puppy is not in good health, then the Buyer shall elect to keep the puppy or receive a complete refund of all monies put toward the purchase price of the puppy and further performance under this contract shall be null and void.*
*(4) Should life threatening diseases or disabilities be discovered by Buyer within 72 hours after receipt of purchase, and attested to in writing to Breeder by Buyers’ Veterinarian, Breeder will provide Buyer with a replacement breed quality puppy as soon as such a puppy is available to Breeder. NO CASH REFUNDS. NOTE: The Breeder does not assume any additional liability for possible genetic defects in puppy, and will under no circumstances by responsible for vet bills resulting from any such condition. All litigant issues will be held in the state of Missouri. **(5) No warranty shall be considered to cover or in anyway involve the following:*
*A.) Temperament of the puppy as it matures into full size. While breeder sees that its puppies have very good temperament, individual animals cannot be guaranteed.*
*(6) If Buyer chooses a replacement puppy, Buyer and Breeder shall make prompt arrangements within 10 days of receipt of veterinarian certification for return of the puppy sold herein to Breeders place of business. Buyer shall be responsible for taking good and reasonable care of the puppy until Breeder receives it. Costs and related expenses of returning the puppy to Breeder shall be the obligation of the Buyer. *
*(7) If Buyer requests delivery to a designated location, Buyer is responsible for all cost. NOTE: The Breeder does not assume any liability for any injury to said puppy after delivery.*
*(8) Puppies can be stressed and appear ill or nervous due to change in living environments. Please allow 8-10 hours before handling puppy.*

* This agreement is made and signed by both parties to insure the well-being and protection of the puppy/dog. If the Buyer breaches any part of this agreement, the Breeder is released from any obligation under this agreement.*
* ______________________________ *
*(Signature of Buyer)*​*DATE: ________________________*​* ______________________________*
*(Signature of Breeder)*​*DATE: _________________________*​


what do you think of it? i'm going to send them an email, are there any good questions i can ask them? thanks!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Alice Ana said:


> ,
> here is a tiny bit of info about how they raise their dogs:
> "_We are a small kennel all dogs are inside with outside runs. We are
> USDA inspected and the dogs are played with often. We are retired and just
> ...


I hate to tell you, but since they are USDA inspected, that means they are a USDA licensed kennel, what we call puppymills. 

If you care to share the breeder/kennel name, either publicly or you can send me a pm, I will see what I can find out for you.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

Oh my  oh my... 

I just sent them a message. I asked these questions:
_1. How much does the father weigh?
2. Will I be able to meet the parents?
3. Could you possibly tell me about the parents' temperaments?
4. Do you take pictures so we can watch them grow up?
5. Are the puppies introduced to different noises such as a groomer, small kids, and traffic?
6. Do you groom them? When do you start?
7. Do you start housetraining at all?
8. Have you had any genetic problems in the past?
9. How long have you been breeding?
10. How many litters do you produce a year?_

yikes... that makes me sick... how do you know that they are a registered puppymill!? 

here is where we found her...
Maltese Puppies for Sale: Sallys Girl1
you should be able to get any info you want from there.. i think..

....wow this is really embarrassing...


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

I'll leave the puppy mill questions to the others as I live in Canada. As for top knot, you should remove it daily (and redo it again) so her hair doesn't mat up and break. It'll also get Alice used to the brushing and combing. You should also touch her paw pads, rub her tummy, get her used to being handled on her back, brush her teeth and wash her face, and clean her eyes daily (we use Spa Lavish Face Wash, Bausch & Lomb Collyrim for Fresh Eyes Eye Wash, and Petrodex Enzymatic Dog Toothpaste). You may want to invest in a good brush and a comb as well as a shampoo and a conditioner.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

cleooscar said:


> I'll leave the puppy mill questions to the others as I live in Canada. As for top knot, you should remove it daily (and redo it again) so her hair doesn't mat up and break. It'll also get Alice used to the brushing and combing. You should also touch her paw pads, rub her tummy, get her used to being handled on her back, brush her teeth and wash her face, and clean her eyes daily (we use Spa Lavish Face Wash, Bausch & Lomb Collyrim for Fresh Eyes Eye Wash, and Petrodex Enzymatic Dog Toothpaste). You may want to invest in a good brush and a comb as well as a shampoo and a conditioner.



thank you  that's on my "To Do" list:thumbsup:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Judging from the information on their site, they are not breeding for any reason except for profit. Discounted puppy page? Of the puppy listings they have, they are selling three different breeds. 

For $350, this might be a 'bargain' right now, but might not be a bargain later on down the line. I hope they answer your questions honestly!!


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

i do too! for some reason the website's name is under Paul, the lady we talked to is Brenda, and the guy who we email is Mike DeGraw. very confusing... i'm going to keep asking them questions and just pray that Alice is healthy and lives a long life. she's only 8 days old, so i can't predict the future. unfortunately, we already put down a deposit. fortunately for Alice, she will have a good home no matter what happens. i am concerned about all the other puppies though...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Alice Ana said:


> Oh my  oh my...
> 
> I just sent them a message. I asked these questions:
> _1. How much does the father weigh?
> ...


If they are USDA inspected, they are licensed by the USDA which means they are a large commercial kennel - what we call a puppymill. They may be licensed under a different name. I notice they make reference to a daughter Brenda (no last name) on their website. Ask them what their USDA license number is.

I can answer a few of your questions myself.

Puppymill puppies are raised in cages and receive the minimum human contact and handling. As a result, they are very often difficult or impossible to socialize. Behavioral problems, including aggression, are common.

Puppymill puppies are notoriously difficult to housetrain as they are born in cages to mothers who have spent their whole life in cages. Many have never even walked on grass. They have learned to poop and pee in their cages so this is the behavior the puppies copy.

Genetic conditions are rampant in puppy mill puppies. Millers don't "waste" money on health testing and just keep breeding sick dogs. At $350 for a puppy, it's easier to give you a replacement.

Don't expect them to give you straight answers.


*Puppy Mill Facts* 

Dogs at puppy mills typically receive little to no medical care, live in squalid conditions with no exercise, socialization or human interaction and are confined inside cramped wire cages for life.
 

Breeding dogs at puppy mills must endure constant breeding cycles and are typically confined for years on end, without ever becoming part of a family.
 

Dogs from puppy mills are sold in pet stores, online and directly to consumers with little to no regard for the dog's health, genetic history or future welfare. Consumers should never buy a puppy from a pet store or Internet site; instead, visit an animal shelter or screen a breeder's facility in person.
 

Twelve states have passed laws over the past two years to crack down on abusive puppy mills.
90 Dogs Rescued from NJ Puppy Mill : The Humane Society of the United States

A puppy from a reputable breeder is raised inside and gets used to household noises and humans. They are usually started on house training and many come almost potty trained. Reputable breeders carefully screen for genetic conditions and extensively heath tests both parents before breeding.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

thank you. i'm going to ask them all about that. what happens if they don't answer the questions?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Alice Ana said:


> thank you. i'm going to ask them all about that. what happens if they don't answer the questions?



I'm sure they will answer your questions. They just won't be truthful.

For $350, you are not going to get a puppy who is socialized, groomed, tested for genetic conditions, started on housebreaking, etc. You have to go to a reputable breeder for that. You will pay more upfront, but nothing like what this puppy is going to cost you in vet bills over her lifetime. And you can't put a price on heartbreak which is a very real possibility.

Walking away from the $150 deposit if it is non-refundable will still be the best decision you could make.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Alice Ana said:


> i do too! for some reason the website's name is under Paul, the lady we talked to is Brenda, and the guy who we email is Mike DeGraw. very confusing... i'm going to keep asking them questions and just pray that Alice is healthy and lives a long life. she's only 8 days old, so i can't predict the future. unfortunately, we already put down a deposit. fortunately for Alice, she will have a good home no matter what happens. i am concerned about all the other puppies though...


You need to ask them who holds their USDA license.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> thank you. i'm going to ask them all about that. what happens if they don't answer the questions?


I hate to tell you, but they will probably lie.

I really think you should try to convince your mom to walk away from the deposit. I know it might be hard, but I really don't want anyone to potentially experience what I did. Please look at rescues or save up for a reputable breeder. I know patience is a hard thing (trust me, I KNOW  ), but it's worth it when it comes to finding a happy healthy baby. I know that since your other dog has lived so long, you might be more confident about getting another from a bad breeder (greeder), but Maltese are much smaller (get sick easier, more risk from complications of anesthesia) and have a lot of genetic disorders to look out for.

Like Marj said, you can't put a price on heartbreak.

P.S. Don't feel embarrassed, most of us have been there, which is a reason we want to prevent you from going through the same.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks everyone. i talked to my mom, she isn't listening to me very well... here was the dog i originally wanted:
Maltese Puppies for Sale: Maltese E4
the breeder was so good at giving us info and i would've gotten her around her 12 weeks. but apparently the price was too high for my mom and it required a down payment of $300. i can about guarantee you my mom will never change her mind now that she's put out $150 on the puppymill dog. i have a feeling i'm going to have my hands full with Alice.
i can't thank any of you enough. i'm going to ask them who holds their USDA license as soon as they reply. i will give you all the feedback.

yuck, this is making me physically sick that i'm dealing with a puppymill.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

Just in case you didn't know, USDA means United States Department of Agriculture. ALL farms in the US(or places that have as many animals as farms do) must be registered with them.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Tell your mom that if the puppy comes with parasites, kennel cough, giardia, etc. she will easily spend at least three times that much in the first week or two.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Oh dear! sorry but your first choice to me doesn't sound any better than the one you have agreed to purchase. Dainty Designer Dogs.  I hope however this plays out it all works well for you. :grouphug:


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

You may want to take a look at this article about USDA inspected kennels. 

The USDA Makes Inspection Reports Available Online

Being USDA inspected is absolutely no guarantee of proper treatment of the animals. Here are some highlights: 

"Any reference to the USDA in regard to a puppy indicates that the dog came from a commercial dog breeder, also known as a puppy mill. 

*USDA License Does Not Guarantee Healthy Pets or Ethical Breeders*
Let’s be clear: a clean inspection report only means that the breeder is adhering to _minimum standards_ under the Animal Welfare Act (AWA). 

For example, to pass inspection cages have to be six inches larger than adog on all sides. There’s nothing in the AWA that says a breeder can’t have a thousand dogs—or more (and many do) or that dogs can’t stay in their cages for years at a time, never being let out."

There is a link in the article to finding USDA reports from their inspections. If you can get a hold of their USDA #, you can see what was said about them. 

By the way, I just checked out their website. This is shocking: 
"We raise around fifteen different breeds" :angry:
Also, the picture of the mom on puppyfind obviously is not a great representative of the breed. It looks like her tongue might be hanging limply out of her mouth, too, which is normally caused by having no teeth left (indicative of poor care..) 

I'm sorry you're going through this. I just fear within a few weeks of getting her, you'll be back on here with a heartbreaking story about her health taking a turn for the worst.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

ilovemymaltese said:


> Just in case you didn't know, USDA means United States Department of Agriculture. ALL farms in the US(or places that have as many animals as farms do) must be registered with them.


There is lots of information about puppy mills and the USDA here:

Puppymills - Information about puppy mills and how to shut them down.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

eh i feel so unlucky!!!!  my first choice had a very informative breeder  there are no reliable breeders around here!!! she was the closest one to me too - 3hrs 51mins away


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> thanks everyone. i talked to my mom, she isn't listening to me very well... here was the dog i originally wanted:
> Maltese Puppies for Sale: Maltese E4


That first breeder is also a "greeder". *No reputable breeder sells mixes.* Please check out the "Breeders" section of this forum, there is a lot of information on how to pick a good breeder and there is always rescue. :thumbsup:

Please don't give up on your mom, but I know it's hard because it is her money and authority. I hope everything works out well. :grouphug:


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

not sure if that picture will come up at all but that is of the mom i think. the one on the website is of the dad.

they said the mom is only about 4lbs. i just asked the dad's weight earlier so i'm not sure of his yet.


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

Some not great news for you. I found him. 

A&J Kennels, Lebanon, MO

I looked up the name on his site under contacts (Alvis Paul)
His USDA # is 43-A-5041

Look up his name here: USDA - APHIS - ANIMAL CARE - DETAIL

You can see the reports from his inspections. In 2007, they were unable to reach anyone on four separate dates to get an inspection. A few weeks later, when they got a hold of them, the breeder was unable to provide any vet information/vet program. At the time (shortly after they began, according to what you said about 4 years breeding) they had 31 adult dogs and 9 puppies. Imagine now, 3 years later. Obviously, you cannot have 40 dogs that are well cared for, loved, and socialized. 

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

Would you ever consider shipping? Many of members here have pups shipped from breeders, somme as far away as Korea with no problems at all! You could ask that very reliable/reputable breeder everything about the background of the pup, and we have maltese datat bases that can even confirm the truth.  
Your mother doesn't know what an exspensive malt puppy cost, I've seen as high as 5k from top breeders. But I've also seen as low as <900 from reputable breeders. I could give you some references, just let me know.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

I'm sorry to say, but that mom looks poorly bred and should not have been breeding. 

Also, if you do convince your mom to walk away, read this helpful site on picking a reputable maltese breeder. Find A Reputably Bred Maltese Puppy From a Reputable Maltese Breeder In The United States

If you have questions, feel free to ask. We want to help you as much as we can and wish you the best of luck, Shelby! :grouphug:


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

oh my gosh.....  well.... i have to come up with some money then.... i feel like if i give up on this dog, she's going to have a terrible home. :'(
i haven't considered shipping because of the trauma it could bring and also, the money.
i don't have a job and i won't until after my birthday next week.

is there anyway to stop these people? why do they let it happen if they know it's a place full of neglect!? i HATE puppymills... and now look, it turns out i've paid one...
oh my gosh


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> oh my gosh.....  well.... i have to come up with some money then.... i feel like if i give up on this dog, she's going to have a terrible home. :'(
> i haven't considered shipping because of the trauma it could bring and also, the money.
> i don't have a job and i won't until after my birthday next week.
> 
> ...


Well, the first way you can stop them, is not support them with anymore of your money. I know patience can be hard, but maybe you can wait until you make more money to buy or rescue a Maltese.

Please don't feel too bad, you didn't know.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

i feel way worse than bad. i'm going to try as hard as i can to influence my mom.... i can't believe i gave $150 to a puppymill.. my mom is never going to let me get a dog if it's this much trouble now    this is probably one of the worst things that could happen.... but i'm glad i came here and got told before time...



and if it couldn't get any worse, i just callled my mom and she pretty much said, "well in the contract it says you can return them if they are sick. so we'll just hope for the best." and now i'm seriously physically sick. you can't just return a life. dogs shouldn't be refundable. it's like having a child, you can't get a refund on them.... god, i never thought i would be helping a puppymill. mom told me it was a done deal and that at least i'll be giving her a good home.

looks like my whole summer will be all about her (which i don't mind)... but i wish i could actually do something about the mill. in the future, this will NEVER happen again to me. but i will never be buying from a breeder again, only adopting. at least i know the dogs have a good home when i adopt.... omg this is really upsetting me


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## LUCY N PETS (Apr 21, 2009)

I really hope that you reconsider getting this puppy, you do not know for sure what you are really getting. I would definately check out the rescues first and maybe even a retiree that could be a retired champion that you can put bows on and spoil either choice is a much better decision at this time for the money you are willing to pay and these will come to you already spayed and shots already up to date. Please, Please reconsider. I have been where you are now and I had to put my puppy to sleep at six months due to health problems. It was a very hard thing to do after getting so attached. We are only trying to spare you the heartache we have already gone through.

Here is a picture of my little retiree Savannah. This picture was taken just a couple of hours after I got her. I just got her in December. She had given birth to her last litter in August 2009 and is now my precious spoiled baby. She was a show dog and was a Champion then went on to breed a couple of litters which also went on to be champions. She is so loving and came to me sweet, healthy and a very good representative of what a Maltese is supposed to be. The costs of a retired malt is still around your price range. Please think about it.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Yes, definitely consider getting a retiree. Keep checking around Josymir Maltese, I looked at her sight and it says under *Available Retirees* (down at the bottom) that she will have 1 boy and 1 girl available this year. I'm not sure if it's updated, but just check around just in case. I think retirees are definitely in your price range, or you can save the amount fairly quickly when your birthday comes around.

Here's the site. Maltese puppies for sale from Maltese Breeder with Available AKC registered Maltese puppies and Maltese showdogs in PA


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

I am so sorry you are just now finding out about puppymills and that the puppy you are getting is from one.:crying 2: Please know that many of us know exactly what you are going through. Perhaps this can help you make a wise decision:

Before London & Preston came along, I had just one Maltese named Benson. He was literally the best dog in the world in my eyes. I purchased him off of PuppyFind.com, not knowing anything about bad breeders or puppymills. If I remember correctly, he cost around $600 + around $250 shipping. To me, it was a good deal (at the time).

After we had Benson for about 6 months, he started peeing frequently everywhere in the house (we had always had trouble housetraining him, probably because he was from a puppymill) and was straining to pee. We took him to the vet, found out he had an infection (crystals in his urine), got an antibiotic and that cleared it up for a while. A couple of months later it got worse. We took him back to the vet, and were told Benson had bladder stones that needed to be surgically removed. By that point, we had spent around $600 in his vet care, making the "price" of Benson $1200. Several months after his surgery, he got really sick. It was found (through more vet visits, ultrasound, etc) that he had a Liver Shunt. He needed to be on daily medication to maintain his life. I was okay with that...Except about 6 months after that, it stopped working. He went to the emergency vet, received IV fluids & medication, and we increased his daily medication to 3x the normal dose. He was too sick to have surgery (that is very risky in itself). Liver Shunt surgery costs generally around $3,000. Unfortunately, we had to make the decision to put him down just a week later. He was not improving and could no longer walk, go potty, eat, nothing. It was the saddest thing I've ever seen in my life -- It has been over 2 years since he's been gone, and I STILL cry about it, wishing I could have done something to fix him. Benson was not a $600 bargain Maltese, he was well over $2,500 before he even reached the age of TWO. He never made it to his 2nd birthday.

Please, please, please, do not support puppymills and get this puppy. You are only setting yourself up for possible heartbreak.

Any Maltese "breeder" who does not actively show Maltese in AKC conformation is NOT a reputable breeder. If they are not actively showing, do not consider buying from them. Losing $150 is okay, it's only money. You would be walking away for a good reason.

My husband made me "save up" to get Preston, so I made a chart with my progress. Some months I only set aside $50, and other months I was able to set aside more than that. I saved for about a year -- which went by SO fast because I took that time to research several breeders, stock up on puppy supplies, etc. I think you should do something like that...just wait several months until you have enough money to buy one from a reputable breeder. There is one breeder here on SM that has puppies around $800 I believe (don't quote me on that).

I love the idea of you possibly considering a retiree or rescue Maltese. I have seen some GORGEOUS Maltese available for adoption through rescues.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

now i really wish we would've waited to make the deposit. 
and i'm extremely sorry for your puppy   so young...

(what i said earlier [but it was in an edit])

and if it couldn't get any worse, i just callled my mom and she pretty much said, "well in the contract it says you can return them if they are sick. so we'll just hope for the best." and now i'm seriously physically sick. you can't just return a life. dogs shouldn't be refundable. it's like having a child, you can't get a refund on them.... god, i never thought i would be helping a puppymill. mom told me it was a done deal and that at least i'll be giving her a good home.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Alice Ana said:


> i feel way worse than bad. i'm going to try as hard as i can to influence my mom.... i can't believe i gave $150 to a puppymill.. my mom is never going to let me get a dog if it's this much trouble now    this is probably one of the worst things that could happen.... but i'm glad i came here and got told before time...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What your mom doesn't realize is that genetic conditions may take years to show symptoms and by then any health contract won't be any good. 

And how can you return a puppy you find out has a liver shunt, for instance, six months after you got her? That's when the heartbreak sets in.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

i don't know, and i'm still trying to take this in. i'll try my hardest to make my mom change her mind... i can't control my parents though... i wish i could sometimes.... it's my mom's money too... which really puts me in a bad position.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Alice Ana said:


> i don't know, and i'm still trying to take this in. i'll try my hardest to make my mom change her mind... i can't control my parents though... i wish i could sometimes.... it's my mom's money too... which really puts me in a bad position.


Can you promise to pay your mom back the $150 and cancel the deal? Then you can start saving for a healthy puppy. It may take awhile, but the heartbreak and huge vet bills you would probably face with this puppy are nothing a young girl should have to deal with.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Don't let this experience steer you away from reputable breeders, but I think it's great that you have decided to only rescue.

And I agree, it is your mom's money, which is why she should not get this puppy. It's not guaranteed, but there is a really high chance that she will be paying more than the upfront cost and necessary vet visits.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

It appears that A & J Kennels is a family business as so many puppymills are. I see they also sell Bichons. I'd bet my last dollar that their Maltese have Bichon mixed in. It's a common puppy mill practice as Bichon are larger and have less complications during pregnancy than Maltese. They have more puppies which means more $$$ in the miller's pocket. Please read this:

Maltese Dog and Puppy Size/Weight...does it matter??

Since you are underage, you legally cannot enter into a contract. I would try to get your deposit back based on that.


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## jenn78 (Oct 27, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> thanks  i have actually already purchased bows from petsmart. some of them clip in and are kind of heavy. the other actually come with a band. apparently they fall apart though :/ i took one out to look at it and it fell apart on me pretty quickly. i kept the rubber band and bow so i could glue everything back together. i'll go out and buy some bands when i get my license. thanks again.
> 
> if you check out my introduction post, it might help you understand my situation a little :/ the best breeder with reasonable prices (my parents will not let me "waste" my money on a dog) was in Missouri (5hrs and 35mins away).  we even asked them to hold her an extra week. they are going to. i do have a lot of questions to ask them... even though my mom said not to bug them :/ i just want to know their reasons for selling their puppies so early and i want to meet the parents and i want to know so much more about their background. apparently they're an old couple who have only been breeding for about 4 years..



You can get bands fairly cheap on Ebay, thats where I have bought them from.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

You seem like such a smart and mature young woman, I hope you and your mom are able to discuss this and she will listen to you. You might want to show her this clause in the contract again which states that the health guarantee is only for 72 hours, and doesn't cover genetic conditions or vet bills.

*(4)Should life threatening diseases or disabilities be discovered by Buyer within 72 hours after receipt of purchase, and attested to in writing to Breeder by Buyers’ Veterinarian, Breeder will provide Buyer with a replacement breed quality puppy as soon as such a puppy is available to Breeder. NO CASH REFUNDS. NOTE: The Breeder does not assume any additional liability for possible genetic defects in puppy, and will under no circumstances by responsible for vet bills resulting from any such condition. All litigant issues will be held in the state of Missouri. *


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> Can you promise to pay your mom back the $150 and cancel the deal? Then you can start saving for a healthy puppy. It may take awhile, but the heartbreak and huge vet bills you would probably face with this puppy are nothing a young girl should have to deal with.


Hopefully your mother will open her eyes and realize that the puppy's "health guarantee" is likely going to fall through if/when the puppy does get sick. I thought I saw somewhere on the guarantee that they do not cover genetic health problems, did I read that correctly? It sounds to me, that the contract is so vague and doesn't actually guarantee much of anything -- so when your puppy does get sick, they don't have to do anything.

If nothing else, tell your mom that you're not ready to get a Maltese yet -- you need to do more research on their health and temperments, etc. There is so much to learn about Maltese, maybe you can convince her to wait also.

EDIT: A reputable breeder will most definitely guarantee against any genetic defect/problem, and their guarantees are at least 1 year long, and many are 2 years.


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> oh my gosh.....  well.... i have to come up with some money then.... *i feel like if i give up on this dog, she's going to have a terrible home. :'(*
> i haven't considered shipping because of the trauma it could bring and also, the money.
> i don't have a job and i won't until after my birthday next week.
> 
> ...


the reality is, no one needs to 'be a hero' when it comes to puppymill puppies--that's how they stay in business and KEEP making these poor puppies. if you want to save a puppy that would've otherwise had a rough life, look into rescue. 



Alice Ana said:


> i don't know, and i'm still trying to take this in. i'll try my hardest to make my mom change her mind... i can't control my parents though... i wish i could sometimes.... it's my mom's money too... which really puts me in a bad position.


i imagine if you told your mother you don't want this puppy anymore, plain and simple, she wouldn't want to drop even MORE money on it (unless she really wants one, too). at this point, i would do anything possible to get out of this deal. look at how attached you are after only a few pictures. imagine once you get her home..it wouldn't matter what health problems she ended up with, you would not 'trade her in' for another pup--you'd suck it up and continue pouring money and tears into the situation. plus, puppymillers are notorious for becoming unreachable and falling out of contact as soon as something goes wrong. i really hope you figure this out..


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

I'm still trying really hard to change her mind. I have talked to the breeder, being friendly, and I didn't really get all I wanted to know. I felt some were lies, but I'm not positive. No one can be positive when it's over the internet....

I asked:
1. How much does the father weigh?
2. Will I be able to meet the parents?
3. Could you possibly tell me about the parents' temperaments?
4. Do you take pictures so we can watch them grow up?
5. Are the puppies introduced to different noises such as a groomer, small kids, and traffic?
6. Do you groom them? When do you start?
7. Do you start housetraining at all?
8. Have you had any genetic problems in the past?
9. How long have you been breeding?
10. How many litters do you produce a year?

Breeder replied:
the father is about 4 to5 pounds I think and yes both parents are there when you pick up the puppy you can see them the parents are very loving and playful and we bath the puppies and give them ear treatments and clip nails but their hair is not long enough to really groom when they are babies and yes they are used to my grandkids and other dogs so they get along well with them and no there have been no genetic problems at all with any of our dogs we have been breeding about 4 years the puppy will get a complete phyiscal before you pick it up so it will come with a health certificate.

I commented:
thank you, i have a few more and a couple might have been skipped over on accident.
- how many litters do you have a year?
- do you start housetraining at all? (i know you don't have them for a very long time)
- what are the parents' temperaments?
- do you send pictures so we can watch them grow?
- who holds your USDA license?

Breeder replied:
I don't know on how many litters these are my mom and dads dogs I just do the internet for them I will have to find out no we do not housetrain there is no way we can with so many puppies they do get use to using a doggie door and the parents are loving and playful that is their temperment and yes I take pictures about every two weeks and send as they grow and USDA holds our license.




they completely skipped over some of my questions the first go around. plus, i must mention, they do not know how to use punctuation :|


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## LUCY N PETS (Apr 21, 2009)

To see if this is not a puppy scam, ask for their address and tell them you will be in the area and want to stop by and see them ASAP also a phone number you can reach them at. Then verify the address and phone book if legit. I was going to send money for a puppy a couple of years ago and found out it was a scam. They gave me a phone # that didn't exists and I phoned the better business bureau and gave them the address in that state and was notified it was the state prisons address. They were insistant on me sending the money for deposit and all of it had to be paid way before picking up baby that they didn't even have. I was glad I checked this all out before sending any money.

Forgot to add that they would only answer certain questions and their punctuation was bad as well.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

I think they were just giving you what you wanted to hear, not telling the whole truth. Also, where do they keep their abundance of puppies? If there are really so many that they can't house train them, I'd be worried.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Really, all you need to know is that they are a USDA kennel to have your questions answered. That means that they are a high volume commercial kennel, what we call puppy mills. Puppies from puppy mills are not socialized, groomed, house trained, health tested, etc. They don't know about the parents' temperaments because they are kept for the sole purpose of producing puppies for profit, not for a pet or companionship.

You have 72 hours to return the puppy if she is obviously very sick. They do not cover anything genetic or any vet bills. In other words, you hand them $350 and they are done with you and on to the next sale.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

LUCY N PETS said:


> To see if this is not a puppy scam, ask for their address and tell them you will be in the area and want to stop by and see them ASAP also a phone number you can reach them at. Then verify the address and phone book if legit. I was going to send money for a puppy a couple of years ago and found out it was a scam. They gave me a phone # that didn't exists and I phoned the better business bureau and gave them the address in that state and was notified it was the state prisons address. They were insistant on me sending the money for deposit and all of it had to be paid way before picking up baby that they didn't even have. I was glad I checked this all out before sending any money.
> 
> Forgot to add that they would only answer certain questions and their punctuation was bad as well.


Oh, I agree!


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Alice Ana said:


> *These terms and conditions are entered into and agreed upon by both Breeder and Buyer, who acknowledge the moral and legal worth of this contract. **AGREEMENT*
> 
> *The Breeder transfers all rights, privileges and responsibilities associated with the ownership of puppy to the Buyer with the following condition subsequent.*
> *(1)Deposit of $150.00 on execution of agreement. Final payment to be made on or before the puppy leaves the Breeders premises. If the balance is not paid this agreement shall be cancelled and the Buyer forfeits the deposit given hereunder.*
> ...


Honestly, that is a really horrible contract/guarantee. It's basically no guarantee at all in my opinion. You have only 72 hours to get the dog to a vet to get checked out, and the condition must be "life threatening" in order to return the dog for a replacement puppy. The breeder could easily argue with you that whatever is wrong with your puppy is not "life threatening" and also there are a lot of genetic health issues that you might not be aware of at only 11 or 12 weeks. It also says the breeder is not responsible for genetic health issues...ugh..it is the breeder's responsibility to do all they can to NOT have genetic health issues. Even a lot of backyard breeders I see selling on forums have at least a one-year health guarantee... Some reputable yorkie show breeders that I know of have 2, 3 and even 5 year health guarantees! 

Also, the fact that you can only return for a replacement puppy is not good in my opinion. Most people won't want to return their sick puppy which gets the breeder out of any obligations. Also, would you really want another puppy from the breeder if the first one was sold to you in poor health?

Also, a contract really depends on how honest the breeder is. A lot of bad breeders end up not honoring their contract.



Alice Ana said:


> i feel way worse than bad. i'm going to try as hard as i can to influence my mom.... i can't believe i gave $150 to a puppymill.. my mom is never going to let me get a dog if it's this much trouble now    this is probably one of the worst things that could happen.... but i'm glad i came here and got told before time...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It really is a HUGE responsibility to buy a dog. Most people do not put the time and effort into buying a pet. I don't understand it...this is a pet that you may have for 15 years or more. And if you think about it, the initial price of the dog averages out to very little over it's lifetime. For example, a $2000 dog that lives only 10 year averages out to $200 a year. This is just VERY little considering they are a living, breathing companion for you. People go drop $2000 on a TV or computer that is outdated (or even stops working) after only a couple years! But they don't want to spend that much on a pet that they'll have for 10-20 years..just doesn't make sense to me. 

It is just so worth it to spend time researching and finding a reputable rescue or a reputable breeder. And it truly is worth it to save your money until you are able to buy the maltese of your dreams from a good breeder (or adopt from rescue). I know it sucks to wait...but sometimes it's the right thing to do.

I've wanted another dog for years and it looks like I'll finally be able to get my Maltese later this year! I'm going to be moving and starting a new job pretty soon and have to get that settled first and have been putting money away as well....I'd love to have a maltese right this minute, but I know it will so be worth the wait when I finally have that perfect little baby in my arms and know that she came from a good breeder. 

I also know you are a teenager and don't have a lot of control over your parents. So I don't think we can be too hard on you. I think you sound like a very intelligent, mature girl and I'm so glad you are listening and learning. I think you'll be a great maltese mommy. We all have to learn sometime. While I think the best thing is to walk away and wait to get a puppy, I know you may not be able to change your mom's mind...so if you do bring that puppy home, just be committed to her care and be sure to keep learning and educate others and make a better choice in the future.


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> I'm still trying really hard to change her mind. I have talked to the breeder, being friendly, and I didn't really get all I wanted to know. I felt some were lies, but I'm not positive. No one can be positive when it's over the internet....
> 
> I asked:
> 1. How much does the father weigh?
> ...


Funny that they have never had any problems (hard to know, by the way, if their oldest puppies are 4 now), yet offer no genetics guarantee.


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

I feel badly for your anguish over this situation and the possible future problems you're going to have with a puppy mill puppy. It's like a Pandora's Box of problems there. All the ladies here have given you some great advice though. The irony is, that people go to puppymills thinking they're getting a good deal, but with the costs and upkeep of health/genetic/medical issues these poor puppy mill souls are bound to have..it's never a "bargain" in the end.

These people (BYB/puppy millers) are really the lowest of the low. The other site you chose -the designer dogs site- is just as bad. A well bred Maltese is expensive. Maybe you can just save up for a while so you can make the right choice. It will save a lot of heartache. Or consider a rescue or a retired Maltese.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

myfairlacy, thank you so much. i want to thank everyone else again too.
here is what happened...

i have been against puppymills for years and years. i never thought i would fall into the trap of one. it's "funny" how they can trick first time owners so easily. even after much research (i guess not enough...) i fell for it. to find out that i was actually HELPING one out made me extremely sick.
i thought i was going to throw up i was so upset. i started crying and tried to convince my mom otherwise... she is very strong on her word. sad thing is, it's my fault we already put the deposit down. i was excited to even get a dog and my mom liked that it was cheap... which seemed like a 2-in-1 deal to me.. well, until the last couple of days.
so now i'm stuck with getting her. i cried and complained to my mom and told her we're just helping the puppymill and that they could have diseases. i even told her the sad stories that i heard on here.... but she said she's had many cheap dogs and all have lived great, long lives.

i am, in fact, going to plop in for a surprise visit on April 17th or 18th to meet the parents and my Alice. i was quite surprised that they were willing to let me meet the parents (who are apparently very sweet [as told by the breeder] and get along well with children) and go into their home.

i'm really sorry to everyone that i couldn't convince my mom otherwise... my dad is on her side too... i really feel like i let everyone down 
on the positive side, Alice is going to have unconditional love, a home, and everyone here to help out and *hopefully* be supportive. i will never, EVER get from a breeder again. i think i have made it my promise to only adopt and rescue future Maltese dogs. i will take this as a learning experience i guess. it's good to know i have you guys here to help along the way.

even if she only lives for six months like some of the other cases, i'll make sure it's the best six months of her life. every dog deserves a chance right?

:/

i'm sorry to everyone, again, and i hope no one hates me or my parents too much  it's quite embarrassing... i come on here all excited that we put down a deposit on "the dog of my dreams" just to find out she's a puppymill dog... pretty sickening..


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> but she said she's had many cheap dogs and all have lived great, long lives.


Yes, but were any of her cheap dogs small ones that have a history of genetic defects, especially when badly bred (Maltese, Yorkies)? I just hope nothing happens to Alice Ana that would cause her to undergo costly procedures.

No one hates you, Shelby, or your family. Sometimes people only think of the upfront cost. My mom used to be like that until what happened to Roxy.

I hope everything works out fine and hope you continue to be a part of SM. :grouphug:


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

i will continue to be a part of SM, you guys are the only ones who can give me advice and help! :grouphug: i do hope that Alice Ana turns out okay. my mom WILL pay for procedures to be done, she has too weak of a heart to not do so. i just don't think she understands. no matter what i say changes her mind. i really hope nothing happens to Alice (especially not major), but i hope it also opens my mom's eyes a little. you're right, we've never had a dog under 15lbs and none have had genetic defects, so it's completely different than what we're used to. i do not know if Alice's parents have defects though, or could possibly carry them. i guess i'll just hope for the best and stay in touch with everyone here who can help me.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Alice Ana said:


> i'm sorry to everyone, again, and i hope no one hates me or my parents too much  it's quite embarrassing... i come on here all excited that we put down a deposit on "the dog of my dreams" just to find out she's a puppymill dog... pretty sickening..


no one hates you. We all have to learn sometime. You don't have a whole lot of control over your parents. I'm just impressed that you didn't get defensive after everyone's advice...it's good that you are willing to learn. I'm sure you'll take good care of your puppy. I'm sorry you learned about her breeder a little too late but you can help to teach others in the future. I just hope your baby is healthy and lives a long healthy life.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

roxybaby22 said:


> Yes, but were any of her cheap dogs small ones that have a history of genetic defects, especially when badly bred (Maltese, Yorkies)? I just hope nothing happens to Alice Ana that would cause her to undergo costly procedures.
> 
> No one hates you, Shelby, or your family. Sometimes people only think of the upfront cost. My mom used to be like that until what happened to Roxy.
> 
> I hope everything works out fine and hope you continue to be a part of SM. :grouphug:


I agree, you sound exactly like me! When I first found out my first baby was from a bad breeder, I wanted to fly to OK and give that breeder a peice of my mind personality. LOL 

Gosh, parents think they ALWAYS know best, but sometimes they don't. But who's going to believe us?  But no one hates you, don't feel embarrassed, we've all been there and know how you feel. :grouphug:

We are SO glad you joined us here on SM. We will aid you with any health and/or behavior problems. We'll always be there for you. Good luck and I wish you many happy years with your new malt.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Well, if it's a done deal, all you can do now is prepare for her arrival. 

What kind of food do you plan on feeding her? I think if you start with a good nutrition, her chances of going to the vet for illness will be decreased.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

:blush: i'm really grateful that you all are accepting me. i don't think i could have gotten defensive over any of the advice because you were just trying to help me understand and it's not like anyone was being mean to me. without you guys, what would i have done? gosh i've only been here for a couple days and i've already gotten amazing advice that is life-changing :w00t: ! i think the only way i would've gotten defensive is if i was in denial. not going to lie, i was when i first found out about her being a puppymill dog.  it was a little difficult to take in, especially because the deal was closed off and i couldn't change it.
actually, i was quite surprised i didn't get yelled at at all! :forgive me: you're all so supportive and understanding -- i was in shock! i hope to be on this forum a long time 





roxybaby22 said:


> Well, if it's a done deal, all you can do now is prepare for her arrival.
> 
> What kind of food do you plan on feeding her? I think if you start with a good nutrition, her chances of going to the vet for illness will be decreased.



funny you should mention that! i was just getting ready to ask about foods. right now, i'm at loss. i was thinking Eukanuba... but i have a feeling someone has a story for that because i haven't seen any posts with people who have used it. do you have a suggestion?


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

Alice Ana said:


> funny you should mention that! i was just getting ready to ask about foods. right now, i'm at loss. i was thinking Eukanuba... but i have a feeling someone has a story for that because i haven't seen any posts with people who have used it. do you have a suggestion?


Check out this website:

Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost

It has reviews of pretty much every food out there. They are listed in order from 6 stars to 1 star (Eukanuba is a 1 star). It is also great at teaching what to look for on the ingredients list. Get the best quality food you can afford, and try to avoid fillers, dyes, etc.) :thumbsup:


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Alice Ana said:


> :blush: i'm really grateful that you all are accepting me. i don't think i could have gotten defensive over any of the advice because you were just trying to help me understand and it's not like anyone was being mean to me. without you guys, what would i have done? gosh i've only been here for a couple days and i've already gotten amazing advice that is life-changing :w00t: ! i think the only way i would've gotten defensive is if i was in denial. not going to lie, i was when i first found out about her being a puppymill dog.  it was a little difficult to take in, especially because the deal was closed off and i couldn't change it.
> actually, i was quite surprised i didn't get yelled at at all! :forgive me: you're all so supportive and understanding -- i was in shock! i hope to be on this forum a long time
> 
> 
> ...


I personally homecook for my dogs, as well as feed them a dehydrated raw. BUT I know most people want to feed kibble. So, some of my recommendations for kibble are: Wellness, Nature's Variety, Natural Balance...thats all i can think of right now but there are a lot of others (sorry..I'm really tired right now).

What kind of pet supply stores are around you? Do you have stores that carry specialty dog foods? they would probably have the higher quality foods. Or if you have a Petco, they have Wellness and Natural Balance. Petsmart doesn't have as good of foods as petco does. Hopefully you have more to choose from than Walmart or grocery stores...they all carry low quality foods unfortunately.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This is a must read article for any pet owner:

What’s Really in Pet Food


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Well, I'm fond of grain-free foods, so my first recommendations would be Acana, Orijen, Fromm Surf and Turf, Nature's Variety Instinct, or Evo (with the first two being more highly recommended, they're both from the same company). But, those can expensive and hard to find, so next I would recommend Wellness or Natural Balance (they can be found at Petco). Wellness does have a grain free version called Wellness Core, but it's recommended for 1 year or older.

I've fed all of those, but Acana, Nature's Variety, and Natural Balance.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

Well I live near Champaign, IL. We have a Petsmart... I guess we have a Bone Appetit. It's not too far out of my way, but I've never been there before. We also have a Leisure Time Pet & Hobby Inc. I have never been there either. And I think we have another one called All Pets Great & Small. I'll have to ask my parents about them, but if you know any food that they could possibly have, it'd be nice  I'll check the list of foods and see what else I find.

Here is pretty much our food center for dogs. Considering I'll be getting a small puppy, the food is already limited.
Premium Dog Food and Many Dog Food Brands | PetSmart


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

Petsmart will not carry any good brands of food, except for one called Blue Wilderness. It's a good food, but the rest of the Blue line is not good, so I wouldn't personally feed it.

The best foods are going to be grain-free varieties of Orijen, Acana, Wellness Core, Nature's Variety, Innova EVO, and Taste of the Wild. There are probably a couple of others, but these are my highest rated foods. Natural Balance is a good "higher end middle-range" food.

Petco (if you have one) carries some Wellness, and possibly Innova EVO (although I can't remember). Orijen & Acana can only be found either online or in specialty pet supply stores/boutiques. You may need to call around and ask for these brands. If you Google Orijen & Acana they do have a link to help you locate their product in your area.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Shelbie, if you have a feed store near you, you will most likely find some of the better quality foods. For some reason, stores that specialize in food for other types of animals, even horses, have higher quality dog food. Good luck!


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Here's the "where to buy" sections for a lot of the foods recommended to you. There's a lot more, but I just wanted to get you started. :chili:

Champion Petfoods | ACANA | Locator

Illinois Store Listing

Find A Store | Nature's Variety

Taste of the Wild : Dealer Locator

Where to Buy Natural Pet Food, Organic Dog Food & Healthy Dog Treats – Natura Pet Products

Where to Buy

Natural Balance®Store Locator


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

Okay I found a lot of great places from those sites! I got all the directions and a lot of them are only 15-30 minutes away (a couple were 46 minutes to 2 hours away... so i don't think i'll go with those unless i need to). I'm pretty sure i can get Orijen, Acana, Wellness Core, Nature's Variety, Innova EVO, and Taste of the Wild around here somewhere.

which one do you prefer feeding a puppy and has a series of different types of the food for when the pup matures?


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

My favorite is Orijen, but maybe you could try Acana for Alice since it has lower protein, yet is still grain free (some varieties, at least).

I like switching proteins because I don't think it's very nutritious to eat the same thing over and over again. I usually rotated between the Orijen flavors (fish, adult, red) each time I bought a new bag.

Edit to add: Although, Taste of the Wild is the cheapest out of the grain free foods, so that's also a consideration.


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## llf060787 (Nov 19, 2007)

I highly recommend Natural Balance dog food. I use the Duck & Potatoe formular - small bites made specifically for small dogs. This food is good for both puppies and adult dogs. 

When we got our rescue Bitsy at 13 weeks this past December, she was underweight and wouldn't eat the dog food that the foster mom gave me. We were already feeding the Natural Balance to our 3 year old Bianca so we started giving it to Bitsy as well. She loved it and has been eating it ever since. Once a week I boil a little chicken and I cut it up real tiny and put about a half tablespoon in with her food. You don't need to add the chicken but my two love chicken.

You can find Natural Balance at Petco and other stores that carry better brand dog foods. Petsmart does not carry it.

Here's a site on Natural Balance if you want to read up on it Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance® Dog Formulas

You were also asking about elastics I use the ones for braces but I also sometimes use the ones from the drugstore, its the shiny ones that my daughter used to use when she did gymnastics. They're real tiny and come in different colors. They also come off real easy when I pull on them and the hair doesn't get tangled around it. Sometimes I even find these at the local dollar store. If you have a dollar store near you that carries pet products check it out every once in a while. This weekend I bought 2 floral harness vests for Bitsy for $1 each, but make sure that the hook in the back is stitched on real tight and won't rip or tear when you pull hard. I just reinforced them and they look real cute on her.

Congratulations and good luck!


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

I think your new little girl is going to have a great home with you and I'm glad you've joined the forum- it's such a great resource. I can't wait to see photos of her when you bring her home.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Alice Ana said:


> Okay I found a lot of great places from those sites! I got all the directions and a lot of them are only 15-30 minutes away (a couple were 46 minutes to 2 hours away... so i don't think i'll go with those unless i need to). I'm pretty sure i can get Orijen, Acana, Wellness Core, Nature's Variety, Innova EVO, and Taste of the Wild around here somewhere.
> 
> which one do you prefer feeding a puppy and has a series of different types of the food for when the pup matures?


I personally would stay away for Innova Evo. It has a very high fat content. I know a few Maltese who have developed high cholesterol while on it.

The rest are all great choices.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks everyone  i think i'm going to use Natural Balance because it's the closest to me. i know it's really early to start buying, so we'll just see what happens in 2 more months.

oh, and don't worry about the pics.... i won't be able to get the camera off of her!  i'm excited!


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

Natural Balance is probably the least high-quality from the foods that were mentioned, and is best to feed (in my opinion) if your puppy has food allergies. I used to feed it, but felt like it was severely lacking in nutrition. London's coat became very dry and dull. I now feed Orijen and both her coat & her personality is much more vibrant. Honestly, if you have the option to go for a different food, I would, especially because of where your puppy is coming from. You want her to get the very best start possible with all of the proper vitamins & omega 3's she needs.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

Okay thank you, I'll search for Orijen, it's probably in my area too... somewhere


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

*Sharing my negative experience if a "commercial breeder" dog*



pinkpixie1588 said:


> Some not great news for you. I found him.
> 
> A&J Kennels, Lebanon, MO
> 
> ...



Thanks to the people who are posting links to the USDA inspection reports.

To the original poster--If you're determined to go ahead with this, the not-quite-so-horrible part of the breeder's USDA situation is that the 2008 and 2009 inspections found no violations. I hope the inspection was thorough.

That's a lot better than the place my late Spunky came from (in 1996 and they're still in business). 

Even if your intended puppy gets through the first few weeks or months okay, there can still be huge expenses down the road. My Spunky is an example of what can go wrong over a lifespan of a normal length: 

Spunky had an umbilical hernia which can be genetic, I was told. I had it repaired a couple times, but it kept popping out again. He had loose kneecaps which probably caused the rupture of both cruciate ligaments in his later life, and three surgeries. He had endocrine disorders--Cushings disease which became Addison's disease when the dosage of medine didn't get adjusted properly. After that, he had to get regular blood tests, a shot once a month and a pill every other day. But there were associated skin problems which required frequent courses of antibiotics. He had bladder stones, requiring surgery, followed by special expensive diet. Thank heavens I got him paper-trained when he was young, because otherwise he might have been peeing blood for a long time and I wouldn't have known it. In senior years, he had dry eyes which required a medication twice a day which cost about $60 for a tiny tube. He lost quite a few teeth in his expensive regular dental cleanings. When he had recovered from his high-tech TPLO surgery for his cruciate ligament failure in one leg (the other got infected and was a lost cause) and was getting along well on three legs, he started having heart problems. It showed up when he was under anesthesia for his last dental. He needed several kinds of expensive medications. One of them was a diuretic which removes fluid from the blood, and he peed so often that I was constantly changing puppy pads in several locations in the house. He only lived another 6 months or so and died suddenly, in my arms.

So my Spunky had a lot of expense in his "mature" years as well as his early years. He's the only known purebred AKC-registered dog I've had in my adult life. My others, rescues, have been much less expensive, medically. Fortunately I had my student loans paid off and was doing okay in my career. But when you are young, maybe there will be other things you'd like to spend your money on besides your dog, such as your own education, or human family members. 

Anyway, if you can't talk your mom out of giving up the $150 deposit (and saving the expense of the trip to the kennel, by the way), I wish you good luck, and I hope you'll keep coming to this website for advice.


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