# How do breeders know?



## halfpin21 (Nov 22, 2005)

Okay this question has been bothering me for awhile and I wanted to ask but thought it was a stupid question...then I realized we're all "family" so maybe it's not a stupid question but here goes it...

How does a breeder tell the difference between the pups when they are born and before they are sold/kept, etc.? I see all the pictures of the young puppies and to me they all look the same...so how do you know who's who?


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## lillady (Jan 25, 2007)

I don't know for sure but a lot of times I see them put colored string on the pups necks?


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

I don't think your question is silly at all, I often wondered about that myself. I think some use ribbons of different colors for their puppies.
Koko's breeder uses different color nail polish on the hair on her pups, not near the skin but just on the tip of their ear hair, it works for her  
Each pup's color is registered in her book so she knows who is who


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## yorkieville (May 9, 2005)

I'm not a breeder, but I delivered a litter of Poodles last year for a friend, and went over every day, checking on the puppies and Mom, weighing them, etc. 
And believe it or not, even though puppies seem to appear identical, there are just little things about each puppy that helps you tell the difference between them.

Sheila


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## hayley (Oct 24, 2007)

not a silly question, an interesting one! my gran has bred many field spaniels and once had two litters at the same time (never again i may add hehe) but not only did she name every single one and recognise them just by looking but she would also recognise her dogs at the shows and remember the name even if it had been changed by the new owner. it always astounded me as child at the shows but i guess she had an eye for her dogs.


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## thinkpink (Sep 25, 2004)

I picked out Bella when she was 10 days old and was pretty involved with the care of the litter from then on (it's a looong story). Anyway, at a glance all 5 looked identical but almost right away I started noticing differences. There would be slight differences in sizes or even just a faint spot here and there that would give them away and of course the personalities of each were night and day.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I followed a tip given by becky and used nail polish to tell the difference. But after a while, it didn't take long to be able to tell who was who, but I only had three pups and spent a LOT of time with them.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

LOL!!

We had some trouble with this ourselves. We were afraid to make the colored thread too tight and when we didn't have it tight enough, they got out of it. :smpullhair: 

As a result, I had a lot of trouble telling them apart at least until I picked them up and looked... :w00t: and I do know sometimes I had to compare the boys (or girls) to each other to figure it out. But in general, with a careful look, they are distinctive enough to tell apart (with a close examination).


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## Lennabella (Mar 29, 2007)

> LOL!!
> 
> We had some trouble with this ourselves. We were afraid to make the colored thread too tight and when we didn't have it tight enough, they got out of it. :smpullhair:
> 
> As a result, I had a lot of trouble telling them apart at least until I picked them up and looked... :w00t: and I do know sometimes I had to compare the boys (or girls) to each other to figure it out. But in general, with a careful look, they are distinctive enough to tell apart (with a close examination).[/B]


Steve, what are u saying - Carly could be Molly ???
I think I could pick Molly out between them, but everytime they moved - I also end up looking between their legs. I think Molly was smaller than Carly


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=540201
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LOL!! You are trying to get me in trouble aren't you?? Like I need any help with that!! :smpullhair: 

Yes, Molly was always smaller than Carly. You could usually pick out Carly because she was relatively small and her face was a unique shape too. You could usually pick out the two larger ones (Coop & Murph) or the two smaller ones (Carly & Molly) but then you would have to pick them both up in order to see who was the smallest or largest.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Each puppy after a few days have their own look. Different size, sex, coats, and color in the coat. Pigment differences. When I have more than one litter at a time I use colored permanent markers on their bellies. Tried the string and Jassmine kept removing it. I have used the larger hair stretching band around their necks, but the puppies don't like that for long. I did have two girls that were so identical I had to open their mouths to tell them apart. Ones bite was off a little bit. This sounds terrible, but you don't have to worry about who is who until its time to register them. Especially if you have only one litter. You know they aren't going to get mixed up with another's litter.
My granddaughter Lilly is 3 years old. She loves dogs. She has mixed litter's together for me a few times. She is not allowed in the house when dogs are in season. 
Garney, one of my girls, had a single male puppy. He was a big guy. I was checking on them and couldn't find Garney's puppy. Looked everywhere it could have gotten. Asked Garney where he was and she gave me a very strange look. I found her puppy in with Jassmine's puppies. I think he crawled over the crate barrier and fell onto the floor and Garney took him over to Jassmine to take care of. Silly girl. Thank goodness he was hugh and I could tell who was who. :smheat: 


[attachment=34849:Lilly_With_Puppies.jpg]


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Each puppy after a few days have their own look. Different size, sex, coats, and color in the coat. Pigment differences. When I have more than one litter at a time I use colored permanent markers on their bellies. Tried the string and Jassmine kept removing it. I have used the larger hair stretching band around their necks, but the puppies don't like that for long. I did have two girls that were so identical I had to open their mouths to tell them apart. Ones bite was off a little bit. This sounds terrible, but you don't have to worry about who is who until its time to register them. Especially if you have only one litter. You know they aren't going to get mixed up with another's litter.
> My granddaughter Lilly is 3 years old. She loves dogs. She has mixed litter's together for me a few times. She is not allowed in the house when dogs are in season.
> Garney, one of my girls, had a single male puppy. He was a big guy. I was checking on them and couldn't find Garney's puppy. Looked everywhere it could have gotten. Asked Garney where he was and she gave me a very strange look. I found her puppy in with Jassmine's puppies. I think he crawled over the crate barrier and fell onto the floor and Garney took him over to Jassmine to take care of. Silly girl. Thank goodness he was hugh and I could tell who was who. :smheat:
> 
> ...


aw that is adorable!!


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Believe it or not, although puppies look identical to many people, a seasoned breeder can tell the puppies apart in an instance. Kind of like a mom and her indentical twins. There are subtle differences that a breeder can see.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Believe it or not, although puppies look identical to many people, a seasoned breeder can tell the puppies apart in an instance. Kind of like a mom and her indentical twins. There are subtle differences that a breeder can see.[/B]


Of course this is taking into consideration that a breeder spends time with the puppies and takes the time study them and learn those subtle differences!!


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Stacy, you're right, I should have clarified that I was talking about reputable breeders -- not puppy mills or BYBs.


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## Lisacisme (Feb 21, 2008)

I know that a lot of Keeshond breeders use the colored neck bands - those little guys really look alike!


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## 2maltese4me (May 8, 2006)

Although my breeder could tell them apart. It made me feel better to "Mark" Gracie so there were NO mistakes. I picked a color nail polish and painted the tip of her tail.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=540476
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> Stacy, you're right, I should have clarified that I was talking about reputable breeders -- not puppy mills or BYBs.[/B]


I can not agree more. Just like with the two litters I have on the ground that are very very close in age. I mark the tails with one color per litter just so when I do videos or such people can tell who is who's babies. But I have been able to tell the difference between these babies since about the third day of their lives.


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## Moxie'smom (Dec 16, 2007)

I thought the question was more about when the puppies are so little and all look alike, how does a good breeder know so early on, who is of "show" quality and who is of "pet" quality. 

The colored string is interesting, but this is not what I thought was being asked. 

Since they all look so a like..how can a breeder tell. Moxie has a small kink in his tail that I noticed after we bought him ( I love it By the by...) , that you can barely see. It's right where his tail curls over. Did that disqualify him from being of "Show" material? I'm sure it did. Some puppies have slight tanning in different places..is this an automatic NO to being og showdog quality. It is a personality thing? Eye stain thing? 

I think we pet people always wonder why my amazing baby wasn't (and I mean this in a sarcastic way) not good enough to be a show puppy? I love my mMoxie and he IS my showdog..I call him that everday when I groom him and walk him on his show lead..but in general, without giving away secret info. How can you tell at such an early age? No teeth have come in. etc.

Wasn't this more the question that was initially asked? If not, that's what i always wondered.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

My friends always wonder how I tell my kids apart but they all look very different to me. I also agree that there are differences and when we spend time with them - we can tell them apart.

I think most breeders will not disqualify a Maltese from being a show dog just because of some tan. Very often, the tan fades as they grow older ... or they just get bleached. There are much more serious flaws such as a bit that is completely off ... bad structure. A pig tail or a tail kink is not ideal but I have seen many Maltese finish with a pig tail. 

One of the breeders was telling me that a lot of pet owners are very picky on an ALL PURE white Maltese. I used to be that way too but a little tan now doesn't bother me at all. Adds character  But maybe I can say that because my kids are all white.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

In a few weeks each dog's personality emerges and each one looks totally different to the breeder. It's like the mother of identical twins - she usually always knows who's who. The miracle of life never ceases to amaze me.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Moxie's mom, 
I am not technically a breeder (my MIL is, so I am speaking slightly out of turn) but it is really hard to tell that early for sure, although there are some signs. You are eliminating puppies as show prospects as they grown more than you are selecting. And fortunately, the things that are items to eliminate dogs from the show ring are not serious enough to make a pet owner not adore them. 

I'll try and address some of the different things I know to look for:

I believe you can guesstimate size pretty easily by 10-12 weeks (double it). But you get a feel for what size the pups will be after birth based on what the parents have produced in the past and how quickly they are gaining weight and their birth weight. A teeny pup will not grow into a 6 lb dog (unless it is incredibly overfed!). 

Tan shouldn't be a disqualifier in a puppy (with a condition). One of MILs champions had a lot of tan on his ears as a puppy, but he outgrew it as was finished in three weekends. Tan is not considered a bad thing as you often get a little tan with dogs that have super nice pigment, and appear to have very big eyes once their pigment is in. Any dog who needs to have kelp added to their diet (I think I have heard that is the supposed remedy) to get its pigment in is not preferable for showing or breeding (IMHO). Some people will emphasize the really white puppy, but a dog with a little tan on the ears that has white hair growing in underneath (that is the condition) will usually go all white and won't require a black sharpie on it's pads to enter the show ring.  

You can tell a lot by face shape if a puppy has the type of face you want to put in the show ring. Pretty early on, I am starting to be able to gauge whether there is the potential for a bite to go over or under, which is a disqualifier, and shouldn't be bred (although still will be a lovely pet). Face shape is important though, since top dogs don't usually have a long nose, but they shouldn't look like a pug. You can see face shape at birth, and often a puppy will look like one of his or her parents in the face, which gives you a good idea of what to expect. Especially if you also bred the parents, you recall what past generations of this line looked like in infacy. 

I am not sure how others approach eyestain as an issue that eliminates a prospect, since you can keep eye stain from appearing to be a problem. My MIL does intentionally look at eyestain though when pairing adults and when looking for her own breeding dogs and show prospects. In the end, we all want a dog that looks as great as possible without much effort. Heck - I want to look great in the morning with little effort!

Coat will also make itself pretty evident. Although you have somewhat of a puppy coat, you can feel the differences in a pup with some wave and one that will be very straight. Thickness in coat is also something you just start to feel after handling a LOT of puppies and sticking with them to know how they mature and grow out. 

Also, some pups will surprise you and grow into a "square" shape later than others, but frequently you can look at a young, young puppy and see if he or she is "square" meaning that when standing, the back and the legs and the ground are making a square, not a rectangle. 

Temperment for the show ring is also crucial, and that is spot where you start seeing a certain pup really stick out once they are moving around, and that continues to develop. 

My MIL is pretty amazing at being able to pick a show puppy really early, but I think she wouldn't sell anything as a true show prospect until at least 6 months. 

Hope that sort of answers your question 

Shannon
[email protected]

p.s. there shouldn't be ANY secret information, if people are looking at the good of the breed, we should share everything we can, good and bad. 



> I thought the question was more about when the puppies are so little and all look alike, how does a good breeder know so early on, who is of "show" quality and who is of "pet" quality.
> 
> Since they all look so a like..how can a breeder tell. Moxie has a small kink in his tail that I noticed after we bought him ( I love it By the by...) , that you can barely see. It's right where his tail curls over. Did that disqualify him from being of "Show" material? I'm sure it did. Some puppies have slight tanning in different places..is this an automatic NO to being og showdog quality. It is a personality thing? Eye stain thing?[/B]


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> Moxie's mom,
> I am not technically a breeder (my MIL is, so I am speaking slightly out of turn) but it is really hard to tell that early for sure, although there are some signs. You are eliminating puppies as show prospects as they grown more than you are selecting. And fortunately, the things that are items to eliminate dogs from the show ring are not serious enough to make a pet owner not adore them.
> 
> I'll try and address some of the different things I know to look for:
> ...


Shannon, 
You did a very good job of explaining how Divinity Maltese handle's her breeding program. Good job. Did you ever hear anything on the 2 show dogs you lost? People. :angry: 

Tina


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Shannon B. thank you for that excellent post on newborns. Although I don't intend to breed puppies or show them I love learning all these neat things about conformation of our little dear fluff butts.

Back to the original question, I worried while I was waiting for my puppy to get old enough to come home with me if the breeder was going to keep tract of which one he was. It isn't a mistrust of the breeder, just a fear that when there are 2 of the same sex that are the same size in the litter she might give me the wrong one and would I ever know for sure....... She had sent pictures all through the months of waiting and at one point the pictures looked different to me. I brought it up and after she looked at them again agreed it may be his brother. The ear set looked different to me. I would be more comfortable about that situation if the puppies were tattooed at birth. I had a Sheltie that had H8 on his tummy. It faded to be almost gone at adulthood, but was there. I know from having kittens years ago that you can usually tell each one if you are with them every day, but Malts are all white and have few distinguishing marks.  After weening and if there are more then one litter the same age running around together it would get harder.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Moxie's mom,
> I am not technically a breeder (my MIL is, so I am speaking slightly out of turn) but it is really hard to tell that early for sure, although there are some signs. You are eliminating puppies as show prospects as they grown more than you are selecting. And fortunately, the things that are items to eliminate dogs from the show ring are not serious enough to make a pet owner not adore them.
> 
> I'll try and address some of the different things I know to look for:
> ...


Shannon very well said. Thank you. 

I do want to add that you can get a good idea of how a puppy is going to turn out at 6 weeks. If you like the look of a puppy, his structure, top line, movement, facial features (meaning the triangle between the eyes and nose) and his/her stance are normally there at 6 weeks. Then the main thing we have to worry about is the bite.


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## cknight (Jan 8, 2008)

Thank you so much for the information provided. Boy, I alway wondered how that was done and now I have a better idea of the process. This was most informative and I really appreciate you sharing your trade secrets so to speak. I just love this forum! So much to learn everyday about our Malts.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Thanks Tina  

No - Peanut and Geno have never been found, although the handler was found liable in a civil case. But no amount of money is really worth wondering what happened to them. On the one hand, it could probably be taken off the website, but she isn't ready to give up hope just yet.... They would be 2 now. 

Geno was co-owned and a really sweet boy who had potential, but Peanut was really the crushing blow. Both his parents are special dogs in pedigree and personality. 

My aunt has Peanut's mother, retiree Allye (a Maltangel girl), and Peanut and his sisters Paris and Pebbles were out of Allye's final litter with Buddy (Ch. Trula's Midnight Rider), who is the grandson of Westminster winner Non-Vel's Weejun (sorry it gets confusing). 

Anyway, Claudia kept that whole litter to see who would end up with *the right stuff*. 

All three were beautiful, but it made the most sense to send Peanut out to be shown first, and then possibly Paris or Pebbles a few months later. Once it happened with Peanut (that he was missing), I don't think you could have pried Pebbles or Paris away to have them shown, they have since become all the more prized. 

Most of her dogs have been handled by Diane and Luke (Echricht? I think), and that was the plan with Peanut as well. The lady who was co-owning Geno sent her handler down to pick Geno up. When her handler came, he persuaded Claudia that he would take Peanut out and get him on the show circuit too, avoiding having to ship Peanut to Luke.

I think she will be forever devastated to not have just stuck with the plan and had Luke show Peanut. 

Anyway, Pebbles had pyometra during a heat cycle and was spayed. She will be placed in a pet home, if the right one can be found. 

(Grrr... ) I can't figure out how to post a picture - but here is a link:

http://www.divinitymaltese.com/available/Pebbles2yrsm.jpg

Paris is still with Claudia. 

There were a lot of "leads" coming in for the first 6-9 months that the dogs were in Florida, or North Carolina, or had been shipped oversees. There was a PI hired for a while, and the sheriffs office in the various counties involved were helpful in trying (some of them didn't understand what the fuss is about). 

I think that having a dog stolen is probably more devastating than having one die, although I have fortunately not personally had a dog stolen. 
But at least when your dog goes to the Rainbow Bridge, you know where they are and that they feel no pain... 

Thank you for asking about Peanut and Geno 







> You did a very good job of explaining how Divinity Maltese handle's her breeding program. Good job. Did you ever hear anything on the 2 show dogs you lost? People. :angry:
> 
> Tina[/B]


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

I believe the breeder can safely use a nontoxic laundry marker to write on the puppies' bellies. 
That is another method I have heard of being done but it has to be reapplied every week or so, and after baths. A little less permanent than a tattoo!

Shannon 




> I would be more comfortable about that situation if the puppies were tattooed at birth. I had a Sheltie that had H8 on his tummy. It faded to be almost gone at adulthood, but was there. I know from having kittens years ago that you can usually tell each one if you are with them every day, but Malts are all white and have few distinguishing marks.  After weening and if there are more then one litter the same age running around together it would get harder.[/B]


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## SunshineInALl (Apr 5, 2008)

Sharpie pens are non-toxic and come in a variety of colors. I have used them to color a spot about the size of a nickel on the backs of puppies.


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