# I talked to Alice's *puppymill* Breeder today



## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

and i said "we're going to be around your town soon and i was wondering if we could stop by and see the pups" and she said "sure thing! here's my number ****** just call when you wanna stop by so we make sure we're there."

:blink: i though puppymills don't want you to go to their house to see the pups? she seemed so chill with the idea too.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

If she's a mill they probably don't keep the dogs at the house.....at least not all.


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

I agree with Brit. Also, by you calling ahead of time, it gives her time to tidy anything up or hide things she doesn't want you to see. Or, she is not ashamed of what she is doing and just doesn't care.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Didn't you say this is a network of breeders that works together? She may not have tons of dogs at her own house if she only breeds the Maltese for the network. Another possibility (as I know a lot of large BYBs and mills do this) is that they have a large outdoor building where they keep the majority of their dogs. And then they probably only keep the mothers and puppies inside their home...which may be what you have access too. If this is the case, it should be very easy for them to keep the dogs/puppies inside clean and presentable to buyers. Hopefully they do keep their dogs in decent conditions and care for them okay...you just have to know with a large backyard breeder or mill that they are NOT breeding carefully or responsibly. They are not doing what is best for the dogs, the breed, or the new pet owner. These people may actually appear to be decent breeders to those that don't know any better..but it takes a LOT more than putting two purebred dogs together and keeping them in a clean cage with food & water to be a good breeder.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

myfairlacy said:


> Didn't you say this is a network of breeders that works together? She may not have tons of dogs at her own house if she only breeds the Maltese for the network. Another possibility (as I know a lot of large BYBs and mills do this) is that they have a large outdoor building where they keep the majority of their dogs. And then they probably only keep the mothers and puppies inside their home...which may be what you have access too. If this is the case, it should be very easy for them to keep the dogs/puppies inside clean and presentable to buyers. Hopefully they do keep their dogs in decent conditions and care for them okay...you just have to know with a large backyard breeder or mill that they are NOT breeding carefully or responsibly. They are not doing what is best for the dogs, the breed, or the new pet owner. These people may actually appear to be decent breeders to those that don't know any better..but it takes a LOT more than putting two purebred dogs together and keeping them in a clean cage with food & water to be a good breeder.


I agree with everything Michele said. :thumbsup:

Shelby, if you want to know the truth, request copies of their inspection reports. You can do that here:

USDA - APHIS - FOIA Request Fees

A physical inspection of the property is not going to tell you anything about the genetic makeup of the puppy. It's what you can't see that can run up the huge vet bills later on and possibly break your heart.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Thats how a lot of Mills work, sorry, I agree with what the others have said.


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## bellasmummy (Apr 8, 2009)

I agree with the others on this - not a lot else i can add. sorry


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

Yep, like others have said, try to look around as much as possible for some sort of outdoor enclosure (shed, garage, barn, etc). If you aren't allowed in to something like that, for whatever, reason, there's a good chance that's where the majority of the dogs are kept and the few kept in the house serve as the examples to make potential buyers feel better. Remember, the inspection reports from when they first started stated that at that time they had 41 dogs. I highly doubt that number has fallen in the last 3-4 years.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

She could have all her dogs around if she is just a byb. The object is not knowing the genes she is using for breeding, if she just breeds and breeds for money. Dogs with genetic problems are passing that along to pups and grief for the new owner.
Don't be fooled if you see all the dogs in the house and she offers you coffee. She still is not doing the right thing. Pass the word.....DO NOT BUY FROM BYB's OR PUPPY MILLS.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Please read Carrie's post#3 about her Massimo. He came from a wonderful environment.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/86154-did-i-purchase-my-puppy-byb.html


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

My Ellie who I had to PTS at the age of 5 came from a BYB. She kept the pups in the house. I did ask to meet her parents and they took me out back to a shed, she had several breeds. The shed did have AC. I am much smarter now but really was clueless when we bought Ellie. Ellie was a very sick little girl most of her life, we gave her a great home, she was very loved by us and Spoiled Maltese. My 600 dollar puppy ended up costing us about 15000 dollars and a broken heart. I would have your puppy checked by a vet and have a blood panel to rule out Liver Disease.

Good Luck,

Cathy and Mercedes


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

By all means, any puppy/dog anyone acquires, regardless of source, should get an immediate and thorough vet check. That's definitely recommended whether it's a $600 dog or a few grand, too.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

almitra said:


> By all means, any puppy/dog anyone acquires, regardless of source, should get an immediate and thorough vet check. That's definitely recommended whether it's a $600 dog or a few grand, too.


This is a must for all dog owners. 
But it still won't help if a dormant genetic disease is inherited, it may come up a in a year or two later. Then there goes all the $$$$.


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## Poppy's mommy (Dec 21, 2007)

ilovemymaltese said:


> This is a must for all dog owners.
> But it still won't help if a dormant genetic disease is inherited, it may come up a in a year or two later. Then there goes all the $$$$.


Exactly


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

ilovemymaltese said:


> This is a must for all dog owners.
> But it still won't help if a dormant genetic disease is inherited, it may come up a in a year or two later. Then there goes all the $$$$.


My Lady was perfectly healthy until she was almost five years old. Then, one by one, her genetic time bombs started going off. 

I now spend $5,000 a year plus on medications, diabetic supplies, and routine vet visits and tests to monitor all her conditions. That figure does not include an illness or any other unplanned vet bills which generally run another $1,000.

Bottomline is, Shelby, if you go forward with the purchase of a $300 puppy from a USDA "puppymill" kennel, prepare yourself for huge vet bills and heartbreak. You may get lucky, but the odds are not in your favor.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

I have to chime in with one more voice of experience. My first Maltese Ty, who is now 5 years old, came from a BYB. She was the nicest sweetest lady who loved her dogs to death, they were raised in a clean loving home but the bottom line was that she was *not a responsible breeder. *So no matter how nice a person is, it doesn't mean they should be breeding. 

I couldn't love TY more if he were perfect but I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on bilateral patella surgery and he is FAR from the Maltese standard (difficult to determine when they are a cute ball of fur). Buying from a reputable breeder is no guarantee that you won't have problems but there is a far greater chance for having a problem free pup if you go with a reputable breeder.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

elly said:


> My Ellie who I had to PTS at the age of 5 came from a BYB. She kept the pups in the house. I did ask to meet her parents and they took me out back to a shed, she had several breeds. The shed did have AC. I am much smarter now but really was clueless when we bought Ellie. Ellie was a very sick little girl most of her life, we gave her a great home, she was very loved by us and Spoiled Maltese. My 600 dollar puppy ended up costing us about 15000 dollars and a broken heart. I would have your puppy checked by a vet and have a blood panel to rule out Liver Disease.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Cathy and Mercedes


I'd ask if there's a health guarantee,IN WRITING, for any bad lab results. See if they'll write it up,w/in a specified period of time,say 90 days to see if any major health issues come up,do they offer any type of relief,either pay for bills or refund. Refund shoulds harsh because most will offer refund only since they know you'll be totally in love w/ your fluff and not consider a refund ,so many will drop it.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

michellerobison said:


> I'd ask if there's a health guarantee,IN WRITING, for any bad lab results. See if they'll write it up,w/in a specified period of time,say 90 days to see if any major health issues come up,do they offer any type of relief,either pay for bills or refund. Refund shoulds harsh because most will offer refund only since they know you'll be totally in love w/ your fluff and not consider a refund ,so many will drop it.


Most genetic conditions do not show up in the first 90 days. Some take years to be symptomatic.

Reputable breeders give health guarantees for genetic conditions of at least a year, usually longer.

There are a few states that have tough puppy lemon laws that require a breeder to pay for vet bills up to the cost of the puppy if the buyer opts to kept the puppy. Unfortunately, Shelby's state is not one of them. Also, since she is only paying $300 for the puppy, that wouldn't make much of a dent in a vet bill for a serious illness. Something as simple as a urinary infection with a culture and xray for stones costs $300.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

My previous dog came from a puppy mill. By her outward appearance, you would have never known. She was within the breed standard, a very pretty dog and very sweet, too. But like the others here, after a couple of years, the genetic time bombs started going off. I spent a ton of money, as she had back problems, Cushings, skin issues, allergies, anxiety, etc. 

But the worst part about it was the pain that she had to endure from her back problems, even with medication. Over the years, she became more withdrawn from the pain, and it was heartbreaking to see. 

That is why we are here telling you this. We don't want you to go through the pain and heartbreak that we did. 

If people don't buy dogs from BYB's/puppy mills, they will go out of business. If you choose to buy a dog from a BYB/Puppy mill, then you are indirectly responsible for perpetuating the pain and suffering of the dogs that BYB/PM owner will breed in the future. Do you want this dog that badly that you are willing to have that on your conscience? It's really as simple as that.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

You know I was watching Judge Judy today and she had a case involving a Yorkie and she said to the plaintiffs "Now why did't you just look in the paper and find another puppy" :huh: I was like OMG, I mean this is a very smart woman, does she have no idea what puppy-mills are ? 
So I am inclined to say I really don't think everyone knows what a puppy-mill a byb or a broker really are . I can't see Judge Judy knowing and condoning it, I hope not .


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

It seems you are set on getting this pup. And you will fall in love, just like I did with my Archie wub::wub::wub::wub:...there aren't enough words to describe the love that I have for him).


Last year when he turned 5 years old he started limping. So now he has Luxating patellas in his hind legs and arthritis in his crooked front legs. So far the meds that I put in his food every night have helped immensely....but I worry about the future....I always worry about my boy.....will he even be able to walk when he turns 10? 

I want you to get your puppy, I just want you to understand the risks involved. But on the other hand, Tinker (my knucklehead yorkie) came directly from a puppy mill as an adult....he's the healthiest dog there is. The silly guy (with a ton of mental issues) will live forever!! :w00t::HistericalSmiley:I love my little knucklehead too, I just love teasing him....


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Ladysmom said:


> Most genetic conditions do not show up in the first 90 days. Some take years to be symptomatic.
> 
> Reputable breeders give health guarantees for genetic conditions of at least a year, usually longer.
> 
> There are a few states that have tough puppy lemon laws that require a breeder to pay for vet bills up to the cost of the puppy if the buyer opts to kept the puppy. Unfortunately, Shelby's state is not one of them. Also, since she is only paying $300 for the puppy, that wouldn't make much of a dent in a vet bill for a serious illness. Something as simple as a urinary infection with a culture and xray for stones costs $300.


That's a great point,I hadn't thought of that.I thought if it was genetic a vet should be able to tell what may be coming w/in the first year. I figured if anything will happen it will in the first 30 days. I checked on line and see that some breeders will offer a 1 year guarantee.I wasn't sure what was standard for health guarantees.
If I ever buy from a breeder I'll know to ask that.
Not sure if I will,no offense but my heart belongs to rescues ,so many need homes.....


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

michellerobison said:


> That's a great point,I hadn't thought of that.I thought if it was genetic a vet should be able to tell what may be coming w/in the first year. I figured if anything will happen it will in the first 30 days. I checked on line and see that some breeders will offer a 1 year guarantee.I wasn't sure what was standard for health guarantees.
> If I ever buy from a breeder I'll know to ask that.
> Not sure if I will,no offense but my heart belongs to rescues ,so many need homes.....


Unfortunately, there are no genetic markers for most diseases just like there aren't for humans.

My Lady is a perfect example. When I adopted her at age four I had complete bloodwork done and she was pronounced perfectly healthy. Within the next few years she was diagnosed with both epilepsy and diabetes.

That's why buying a poorly bred puppy can be so heartbreaking. If you knew right away that they were carrying genetic time bombs you could return them. But those time bombs often don't go off for years like with my Lady or Cathy's Elly who died at age 5 or Christine's Kara who only lived seven years. It is devastating to lose a dog that young.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I know that when you fall in love with a pup it is hard to listen to all the naysayers. So whatever you decide, I hope it all works out for you. We don't mean to sound nasty, we've just seen and heard a lot of sad stories.


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## Alice Ana (Mar 17, 2010)

I found nemo said:


> You know I was watching Judge Judy today and she had a case involving a Yorkie and she said to the plaintiffs "Now why did't you just look in the paper and find another puppy" :huh: I was like OMG, I mean this is a very smart woman, does she have no idea what puppy-mills are ?
> So I am inclined to say I really don't think everyone knows what a puppy-mill a byb or a broker really are . I can't see Judge Judy knowing and condoning it, I hope not .



i watched that too.  

thanks everyone, i read through all the pages and everything. i haven't had much time to get on lately, but i did read everyone's responses and advice. thank you


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

Unfortunately sad stories are rampant, but as we've demonstrated here in response to your other query, healthy, happy Malts are everywhere also. Pepper is one!


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