# Barking nightmare continues, desperate!



## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

I haven't been very active in this forum for a while because I've been having a constant battle with Cici's behavior, and I really need to advice. 

She just finished 6 weeks of private training at Petsmart JUST or her barking, and it has not gotten any better, I'm almost to a breaking point because it's a lot of stress dealing with this myself and having people on the street be rude.

She barks like crazy at dogs and people. She barks in an agressive manner, like if she wants to eat them whole, but of they get near her or she goes near them, she instantly starts wiggling and licking them (if it's a human) and wants to play. Wants to play with dogs too if she gets to smell them. It's like she has a double personality. 

At petsmart she made a little progress but ONLY inside the store. By the last week she would go in the store (without many people) but she would be crying the whole time until we got to the back of the store where there's no people. But as soon as someone got close she would lunge and bark her head off. Before beginning the class I showed them her problem and asked if the class would really help her to stop, and they said yes. But that's not what happened. They used the desensitizing method, I thought it was great but it seems to not work with her. 

Inside the house her barking is controlled when she hears noises because I am able to tell her to be quiet and reward her. But outside (or when we have company over), she closes out the whole world except what she's barking at. She won't look or listen to me, and she doesn't care about any type of treats/food even the kind she would usually go crazy for. Or if I do get her to eat it, she's eating it with so much tension and energy that my fingers hurt, she just gets out of threshold. 

She has never bitten anyone or any dog. 

I don't understand how this happened. When she was a puppy she was always meeting people, and she was also in puppy school, she always did so great. 

My theory is that she was scared by dogs and it might have caused this behavior. The last week of puppy school a Rottweiler puppy wanted to play with her but she was scared to death (her tail was down and she was running away) the teacher told me to leave her because it was play time, well he pawed her and she yelped and ran to me and she was shaking. Weeks later one day I was with her on out front yard, she was on leash and taking a potty break, then out of nowhere an adult rottweiler form my neighbors home comes (off leash unsupervised) and starts chasing Cici, but he wasn't growling or barking, just trying to sort of stomp on her like a mouse. I was so scared and grabbed her as fast as I could, she was scared too. 

Since then it has just kept escalating. 

I'm with her 5 days a week the whole day, the other two days just for 4 hours because I have classes. So we get to train a lot, and I have been working on desensitizing for three months now or more. I haven't seen noticeable results, it's still very stressing. 

Sometimes I need to go to the local pet store to get her food or potty pads and I have to take her because I don't have anyone to watch her, and now I dont feel very welcomed to the store. It's understandable they don't like her barking, but it still makes me feel bad. She always wants to get petted so she used to go in, get petted and be calm. But now she goes in and doesn't get petted then she barks aggressively and it's downhill from there. I always give her treats while going in, but she just doesn't care about me or the treats when we go in. 

My BF is upset because we've already spent $300 just in training and we've made no progress, we kind of feel "ripped off" because they should have told us truthfully theyre not capable of helping. 

At this point we can't afford anymore classes for training. 

I need advice! What other methods I should try.. Is it just because she's a puppy and can't control her energy yet? Should I not take her out anymore just so there's no barking and she doesn't make a habit out of it? 

SORRY for such a long post!


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

I'm sorry your having these issues. Maybe try a private prof (familiar with Maltese--this is important IMO) trainer to evaluate Cici. AND I would tell the neighbors to leash the dog. He can kill her if he catches her. I know how scared you were!! My Sammie was grabbed by an unleashed lab when he was 9 mo old and I just barely saved him by yanking him out of labs mouth by his harness. If they don't leash the dog I wouldn't take her outside where he chase her. This is a bad situation. both interactions with the dogs may have affected Cici. Sounds like fear aggression to me. There are a lot of unqualified people working in the training facs. They have no education or expert skills with Maltese. I've seen it in my area often with trainers and vets. I was told the results are only as good as the trainers knowledge of the breed. 
Good luck. And keep us posted.


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

I can totally understand your dilemma and can understand why CiCi has trust issues. I don't know what the answer is but this is something that will take time and patience so that she overcomes her fears. There are herbal things you can give and something I ordered but have not tried is Bach's Rescue Remedy. It is something you either put in the food or water. It's suppose to relieve anxiety. It may be worth a try in the meantime so that she can regain trust in other dogs. I wish you luck...it is hard to break some habits so quickly and it will take time.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Here are some threads that may help until you can find a trainer to help. 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/54-maltese-training/106557-what-reactive-dog.html

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/54-maltese-training/106537-cadeaus-reactive-rover-camp.html


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I couldn't even manage to read through your entire post. I just kept seeing Petsmart...and that was a little too much. I am sorry, but I would never even enter that store...so I would never put any small bit of confidence in what they suggested. Get out of there, forget everything they said, and start fresh with somebody who actually has some knowledge. Pet Smart is just a mega store that just sucks the life out of people and their pets. Excuse me, I know that it is just my opinion. I just think that they are profiteers who pretend to be pet friendly, when their only concern is raking in the $$$$ . I would never, ever shop there.


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## luvsmalts (Oct 21, 2008)

I went thru a similar situation with Boomer. Anytime someone came in the house he would bark and it would escalate till I couldn't get his attention he would be completely out of control. I was so upset cause I wanted everyone to see what a sweet little guy he was. He would bark uncontrollable at neighbors and dogs on the back deck, I couldn't enjoy sitting out with him. 

I waited a long time to get him and wanted to take him every where with me, but it became almost impossible. I went thru two training classes at different places with different trainers. I realized it wasn't going to work, I talked to the last trainer a few weeks before classes ended about my concerns. I could not believe my ears when she told me to get a small dog bark collar. The thought of it made me sick, I thought no way.

Well I began my search again for another trainer one that would come to the house. I also started researching bark collars, read good and bad reviews. I looked at a few at the pet store I wanted a demonstration but they couldn't do that. Don't judge me but I did purchase a small dog citronella collar, with the intent I could take it back if I changed my mind.

I was so afraid it would scare him so badly he would never be the same. After much thought and feeling like a bad mommy I tried it out. I was lucky it worked after a few little sprays and no more barking. A couple came over that night who he had barked uncontrollable at before, and he was an angel playing ball with them and getting in their lap. I think his barking would escalate to a point of no return, that doesn't happen now. He has figured out when it's on not to bark, he was only sprayed a couple of times. 

I only use it if I know someone is coming over, and then take it off after I see he's calm. I know this is not the answer for everybody but I was at the end of my rope and wasn't getting anywhere. 

Good luck, I know how upsetting it is to go thru this behavior hope you find the right answer to your problem.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

I agree with everyone: Get away from Petsmart and find somewhere else.

I'd recommend finding a trainer through your local ASPCA or perhaps even an agility trainer who can help give Cici an outlet for her barking.... Agility or rally is great for building a dog's confidence and it sounds like Cici needs some.

Poor thing  I'm so sorry she was scared so badly by big dogs!

Another idea would be to find a daycare that separates the dogs by size.... take her a few times a week. It really helps socialize and desensitize the barking. 

But she definitely needs something other than Petsmart.

Since Cici is a puppy I'd discourage jumping to something like a bark collar...


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## LoveLucy (Mar 18, 2012)

I can't help because Lucy has similar problems. I do know she gets a little better after she has had a lot of off-leash playtime with other dogs HER OWN SIZE, so that might help.
What I really wanted to say is that if your neighbors don't start leashing their Rottweiler, I would call animal control and/or the police. They HAVE to leash their dog, any dog, but especially a breed like a Rottie. Geesh. Seriously, I would get very assertive with the neighbors. Lucy has issues with other dogs, and sometimes people leave their dog off-leash and when one runs up to us and the owner says something like "don't worry he's friendly" I ALWAYS tell them that my dog is not that friendly and they need to put theirs on a leash. I don't care if they think I'm a old biddy. Leash laws are there for a REASON.


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## CorkieYorkie (Apr 10, 2012)

Lol Maggieh recommended a trainer from petsmart to me.... :hystericalsmiley:


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

CorkieYorkie said:


> Lol Maggieh recommended a trainer from petsmart to me.... :hystericalsmiley:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Folks, it's not PetSmart, it's the trainer! Find someone who has been professionally trained and certified as a positive reinforcement trainer (like the one I recommended to Courtney) and not one who has only been through a "store" training class. You will want one who has experience with reactive dogs and knows how to handle those situations. You also want one who uses positive reinforcement, not prong collars or bark devices or other torture methods. 

Good luck!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

maggieh said:


> Folks, it's not PetSmart, it's the trainer! Find someone who has been professionally trained and certified as a positive reinforcement trainer (like the one I recommended to Courtney) and not one who has only been through a "store" training class. You will want one who has experience with reactive dogs and knows how to handle those situations. You also want one who uses positive reinforcement, not prong collars or bark devices or other torture methods.
> 
> Good luck!


I agree. Petsmart trainers only have a two week training session. Petsmart tried to recruit one of my neighbors to become a trainer and she is a disaster with dogs! She ended up getting rid of the puppy she took to classes there.


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Vanilla barks in public all the time. If we are outside and someone walks by especially with another dog she growls, pulls the leash and barks and then when we get closer she stops and is so friendly and nice to people and their dogs. I don't get it. I get very embarrassed taking her out because I know she will bark at everything. In the house she is quiet and only barks if there are loud noises coming from outside. I did the Pet smart training too and it did nothing for us. She's a really good girl but just gets very excited and I think she has some anxiety that is why she barks outdoors.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

LoveLucy said:


> I can't help because Lucy has similar problems. I do know she gets a little better after she has had a lot of off-leash playtime with other dogs HER OWN SIZE, so that might help.
> What I really wanted to say is that if your neighbors don't start leashing their Rottweiler, I would call animal control and/or the police. They HAVE to leash their dog, any dog, but especially a breed like a Rottie. Geesh. Seriously, I would get very assertive with the neighbors. Lucy has issues with other dogs, and sometimes people leave their dog off-leash and when one runs up to us and the owner says something like "don't worry he's friendly" I ALWAYS tell them that my dog is not that friendly and they need to put theirs on a leash. I don't care if they think I'm a old biddy. Leash laws are there for a REASON.


I went through whole leash law thing. Called county and all. Unless dog leaves the yard they can roam free. I told them they left yard so they sent a letter. Now that one leashes them. BUT Others don't -- but they stay in yard SO far. Problem is, that any unleashed dog can't resist the yapping small dogs walking down road. It's a issue bec many big dog owners know there dog won't be injured so who cares till something happens.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

Did this behavior develop over time? Have you had your vet check her sight? Not trying to worry you, but the fact that she calms down when objects come closer suggests to me that she may be having issues making out objects in a distance and is getting excited by them, once she visualizes them she is ok. Only a guess.


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## CorkieYorkie (Apr 10, 2012)

maggieh said:


> Folks, it's not PetSmart, it's the trainer! Find someone who has been professionally trained and certified as a positive reinforcement trainer (like the one I recommended to Courtney) and not one who has only been through a "store" training class. You will want one who has experience with reactive dogs and knows how to handle those situations. You also want one who uses positive reinforcement, not prong collars or bark devices or other torture methods.
> 
> Good luck!


I still need to give her a call...! And I was just teasing, I shop at Petco quite a bit, even had Ozzie groomed there once! 


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## ToniLWilson (Sep 11, 2012)

I was having the same problem with Bella. We were out to a pet friendly brunch one day and these ladies came up with two beautiful, well mannered Yorkies, they never made a peep even though Bella was egging them on. I sat on the ground with Bella and the Yorkies and was talking with the owners. I asked "How did you train them to not bark like my Bella does" the answer "A Citronella Bark Collar" When they were very young they were trained with this collar, now they were I think 5 or 6 and perfect Angels. After much discussion and research I broke down and bought one. We continued to take her places where she was known to bark, kept the front door open because she would bark at everything outside. When she would start barking we would put the collar on her (never until she started barking) A couple of sprays later and now all we have to do is bring it out where she can see it (just lay it on the table) and she stops. It's so hard to determine when it's ok for her to bark and when it's not but we work on it all the time and the collar did help. Our babies just want to be heard  Best of luck!!!


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

I am guilty about petsmart because I had done research about their training on forums online, and several people were opposed to them, but there was one girl that since I got Cici she was already very kind and she seemed to me like she knew a lot. She never tried to sell me the expensive products she just recommended what was convenient. Petsmart was my last choice though. I has first taken her to a place that was supposed to be the best in the area, but the trainer never really helped with Cici's barking, she always just ignored us or had her assistants take her outside, so she would miss part of the class. 

I did a lot of research and looking around. The only other trainer in my area is know for using shock collars, so I didn't even consider that place. The only places left were petco and petsmart. But at petco when I went to speak with the trainer, her method was pulling Cici really hard by the leash, that's why I opted for petsmart having no other option. 


I have to do this myself now because at the moment there really are no other trainers besides the ones I mentioned! And everyone I ask recommends the one I took her to first, but I can't stand going back there knowing all the things that happened (there were favorites in the class, and others were ignored). 



Does anyone think using the water bottle outside of the home would work? Or is that too mean? Is it better than a cintorella collar? I really don't know what's good or bad anymore almost. I thought desensitizing positively was the way to go, but it's not working. 


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

wkomorow said:


> Did this behavior develop over time? Have you had your vet check her sight? Not trying to worry you, but the fact that she calms down when objects come closer suggests to me that she may be having issues making out objects in a distance and is getting excited by them, once she visualizes them she is ok. Only a guess.


Well when she was younger she never barked at dogs or people she was always very wiggly and wanted to be petted and wanted to play with dogs. The problem started as she got a little older (after the incidents with the big dogs so I'm not sure the connection, but it was days after). She was about 20 weeks when it started I believe. 

I had also considered it could be a sight problem, but I don't think so, because she wouldn't be able to see other things that are far right? Like when we're in the car, the windows are up and she can't hear what's outside, but she can still notice the people that are several feet away, and she stares and barks at them and they're not even close. And when I play fetch with her she can find the ball or toy much quicker than my sis's Yorkie, don't know if she's using her nose but I feel like she has good eye sight. 

She doesn't stop barking if she gets close to them and they ignore her, she only stops barking if she gets close and they pet her or say something with a nice voice. 

We've had some people tell her "shut up" in a rude tone, and that makes it worse she goes crazy even if she's close enough to smell them. A lot of people have been rude on the streets. And some men even "tease" her by yelling back at her, doing barking noises, or just wierd noises that I can't even describe, and it literally fuels her, it just makes it worse. 



I've noticed that she NEVER barks at senior women. I don't know if it's because they're never loud and scare her, or they're just nicer and have a friendlier vibe, but she never barks at them even if I'm not giving her treats. 

And we can't even go near kids anymore.. She really doesn't like kids and I don't know why, they used to be her favorite, but now she gets scared of them and she ends up scaring them with her barking. 


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

Daycare really would be helpful.... It gets her around other dogs and other people.

I had a friend who's dog was like Cici.... a month of daycare and she was a different dog!

I had Gus in Daycare.... it was great. He went 2 times a week for a few hours. Wanted to have Grace go but she can't


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

Grace'sMom said:


> Daycare really would be helpful.... It gets her around other dogs and other people.
> 
> I had a friend who's dog was like Cici.... a month of daycare and she was a different dog!
> 
> I had Gus in Daycare.... it was great. He went 2 times a week for a few hours. Wanted to have Grace go but she can't


I'm worried something would happen while I'm not there  like another dog would play rough with her or something and it could make it worse. Or are they pretty safe? 


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## Leila'sMommy (Oct 20, 2012)

She could be barking at them to get their attention to come play with her. I sometimes think Leila believes that she's supposed to be the center of attention and if she doesn't get it, she barks at the person/animal she wants attention from. So, that's why I'm trying the advise our trainer gave...and others I've read on sites I've searched about barking. When Leila is in her pack n play in the den and is barking because she's wanting out or any other time she barks when it's not wanted by me, I completely ignore her. Then, when she gets quiet, I give her a lot of attention and tell her "good girl quiet" in a happy voice. You've gotta give the positive reinforcement when she's being good! Cici also could think she's supposed to be the center of attention since she has someone with her all the time. Maybe she needs to start being left by herself. You could start with short amounts of time and gradually add time to that. She needs to know how to entertain and comfort herself.

Last summer, I had had enough of the neighbor's dogs constantly barking at us whenever we went out to our pool, deck, or anywhere in our backyard. We've spent a lot of money to make our backyard an enjoyable place to be and I got to where I didn't even want to go out there because of those dogs. So, I searched the internet for solutions and ended up going to PetSmart for a Sonic Egg. That thing worked!! It worked quicker for their big dog - within minutes - but took a bit longer for their Chihuahua. It even worked for our Lab. Now whenever they even see the egg and even when it's turned off, they stop barking.

As for PetSmart, I shop there frequently. Leila has graduated from the puppy classes and will start the intermediate classes this Sunday. Maybe we got lucky. Our trainer seems to be very knowledgeable about dogs and how to train them. Unfortunately for us, he may not be there in about 6 months because he's trying to get something started where he can train service dogs. When I took Leila to the orientation class the day before her puppy classes started, she was the only one who showed up and he almost instantly had taught her to sit and to take a bow. I've never had any of their employees try to talk me into buying anything from there. Actually, I've had two different occasions where they actually talked me out of buying something. One time, instead of buying nail clippers from there, they suggested just using regular small nail clippers for humans. Another time, instead of buying the bitter spray, they suggested mixing cheyenne pepper with Vaseline and put just a small dab where she's gnawing. I had a coupon for a free puppy bath and had taken Leila a few weeks ago. She was right at 4 months old and just a few days shy of getting her rabies vaccination. When I got there, the girl told me they couldn't do it because she hadn't had her rabies vaccine. I complained that they didn't tell me that when I made the appointment and would have understood if they had told me. So, the manager gave me a free full spa treatment thing (I can't remember the real name of what the package was called). So, I will continue to go to my PetSmart. There's not many places around here you can take a dog.


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

She does bark for attention, and I also ignored her because that's also what her trainer from petsmart advised, that worked really well I completely ignore her and she doesn't bark at me not even when I'm eating and don't give her any, she just ignores me too. But when she barks at people and dogs its a different kind of bark, it's more consecutive, with more energy, and sometimes sounds kind of scary like she wants to attack, but she never does. 

Glad to hear Leila is doing so well though  and your petsmart sounds great! Cicis trainer from petsmart seemed really nice, she even gave us a $20 coupon off the class and gave classes more weeks than what we signed up for. But I guess she was not very experienced since she was young, I think she was still learning and probably does well with most dogs. 

I've taught Cici so many tricks and she learns really quick, she knows "touch" and then I say wall or door, or the name of someone (so far she knows daddy and mommy) and she touches with her nose or paw, she knows clap and a few others, so I gave up on taking her to classes for tricks because I can do that myself, but just barking is where I really need help. But I've been let down so far by the trainers :/.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

My first Maltese was a barker. I went to a training class with him in hopes that he will get accustomed to more people. Did not work. Tried the spray bottle, penny can, did not work. When friends came over he would bark for a few minutes and then settle down. With people coming to the house to do some work, it just was easier to just remove him from the situation. 
I was hoping that my second Maltese (Charlie) would be different. But NO. In some ways he was even worse. He barked at any noise he did not know. He barked at every body he did not know. Again I tried the spray bottle, penny can, yelling at him. Nothing worked. The I found the PET CORRECTOR. I honestly can say that for us it worked wonders. No more barking, no more nipping at neighbors who come over. If he gets too excited and goes crazy, I just have to show him the can and he quiets down. Or I just have to say "quiet". My husband took the can with him on walks and used it when Charlie started barking at other people or dogs and it stopped him right away. All I can say is that the Pet corrector helped us like nothing else and is a lot cheaper than all the training course.


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

MalteseJane said:


> My first Maltese was a barker. I went to a training class with him in hopes that he will get accustomed to more people. Did not work. Tried the spray bottle, penny can, did not work. When friends came over he would bark for a few minutes and then settle down. With people coming to the house to do some work, it just was easier to just remove him from the situation.
> I was hoping that my second Maltese (Charlie) would be different. But NO. In some ways he was even worse. He barked at any noise he did not know. He barked at every body he did not know. Again I tried the spray bottle, penny can, yelling at him. Nothing worked. The I found the PET CORRECTOR. I honestly can say that for us it worked wonders. No more barking, no more nipping at neighbors who come over. If he gets too excited and goes crazy, I just have to show him the can and he quiets down. Or I just have to say "quiet". My husband took the can with him on walks and used it when Charlie started barking at other people or dogs and it stopped him right away. All I can say is that the Pet corrector helped us like nothing else and is a lot cheaper than all the training course.


I don't know if I didn't use it right, but I also purchased the Pet Corrector from hearing a lot of good things about it. It worked the first time because it really got her attention, and I rewarded her for being quiet, I thought it was a miracle. But the next day when going to the park I tried it while the park ranger was walking by us about 15 feet away, and it did not work at all, she didn't care for the loud noise, she didn't even look at me for a second she was too busy barking her little head off :\. I still have a little bit left, I will have to give it one last shot. 

How did you use yours? Is it spray first and then say quiet and treat? Because that's what I did, but my sister was saying maybe I should say quiet first.. Don't know if it makes a difference.


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## manolomom (Apr 19, 2012)

My dog manolo was a barking alot like that. My dog would pull like crazy while walking and non stop barking. I sent him a boarding training program, which prepared him for real world training. It really helped him no more barking at everything it's been over a year now since the training.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

Have you tried teaching Cici "Speak" and "hush"?

It might just do the trick.....

Be religious about treating her for it and maybe it will be like "come" for us... mine know whenever they come they get a treat. So even if they are running full sprint they will stop and turn if I call them.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

BellaNotte said:


> I haven't been very active in this forum for a while because I've been having a constant battle with Cici's behavior, and I really need to advice.
> 
> She just finished 6 weeks of private training at Petsmart JUST or her barking, and it has not gotten any better, I'm almost to a breaking point because it's a lot of stress dealing with this myself and having people on the street be rude.
> 
> ...


I think the Rottie incidents may well be what caused this. THAT WAS HORRIFIC Advice to let her be terrified by the Rottie in your class. Once your instructor saw her cowering, it was NOT a good idea to let it continue. Your dog is too small and is rightly afraid of playing with a dog with the size and power of a Rottie. So many people, including trainers are ignorant of what is acceptable. But this is important, when you are desensitizing dogs you want the exposure to be positive. Classical conditioning, a stimuli is presented a good thing happens and the dog is happy. The dog learns to associate that stimuli with positive things. The inverse would also be true of course. A stimuli is presented (the Rottie) a negative thing happens (being chased and stomped on) the dog is frightened. Now as soon as the stimuli is presented, the dog is automatically frightened. This should be canine learning theory 101 going back to Pavlov's dogs, but so many people assume, that just exposure will desensitize and that is simply not the case. 



mysugarbears said:


> Here are some threads that may help until you can find a trainer to help.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/54-maltese-training/106557-what-reactive-dog.html
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/54-maltese-training/106537-cadeaus-reactive-rover-camp.html


Thanks you so much for posting these links. I went hunting for them and saw that you had already found them. 

OP, please read through these. I really understand your frustration and I hope my experiences can help you understand your girl better. 



BellaNotte said:


> I am guilty about petsmart because I had done research about their training on forums online, and several people were opposed to them, but there was one girl that since I got Cici she was already very kind and she seemed to me like she knew a lot. She never tried to sell me the expensive products she just recommended what was convenient. Petsmart was my last choice though. I has first taken her to a place that was supposed to be the best in the area, but the trainer never really helped with Cici's barking, she always just ignored us or had her assistants take her outside, so she would miss part of the class.
> 
> I did a lot of research and looking around. The only other trainer in my area is know for using shock collars, so I didn't even consider that place. The only places left were petco and petsmart. But at petco when I went to speak with the trainer, her method was pulling Cici really hard by the leash, that's why I opted for petsmart having no other option.
> 
> ...


I think aversion techniques will only worsen this situation. So no I would not do the water bottle or the citronella collar. 

I would search the APDT site for some trainers. Dog Trainer Search I just did a quick look based on your location and came up with some for you: 

APDT Member Trainers: 

Behavioral Consultant
Barbara Blanke, PhD	San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 

Thousand Hills Pet Resort
Nicole Hern, MS	San Luis Obispo, CA 93403	


APDT trainers use positive methods, but may or may not have a strong background in working with cases like yours. Make sure they have familiarity with Reactive dogs.


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

Grace'sMom said:


> Have you tried teaching Cici "Speak" and "hush"?
> 
> It might just do the trick.....
> 
> Be religious about treating her for it and maybe it will be like "come" for us... mine know whenever they come they get a treat. So even if they are running full sprint they will stop and turn if I call them.


I have taught her that but after she knew "speak" I mostly used "quiet", and it's been months now so she probably forgot what "speak" is, but I use "quiet" a lot in the house when there's a noise and she barks, then I treat her for being quiet after I say quiet. But she won't listen to me telling her quiet when a guest comes over or when we're outside. I have printed out some articles on how to train for having guests over, but I want to leave that for last since we don't get many people over anyways for now I just put her in a different room. I want to at least solve the barking outside at people at dogs first, I can't imagine us having a healthy owner/pet relationship going out for walks and visiting people with their pets if we don't take control of this behavior. Right now I'm not taking her out to other places much only because it's really stressful for the both of us. I just take her out for a bike ride and have her sniff around the garden. 


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

CloudClan said:


> I think the Rottie incidents may well be what caused this. THAT WAS HORRIFIC Advice to let her be terrified by the Rottie in your class. Once your instructor saw her cowering, it was NOT a good idea to let it continue. Your dog is too small and is rightly afraid of playing with a dog with the size and power of a Rottie. So many people, including trainers are ignorant of what is acceptable. But this is important, when you are desensitizing dogs you want the exposure to be positive. Classical conditioning, a stimuli is presented a good thing happens and the dog is happy. The dog learns to associate that stimuli with positive things. The inverse would also be true of course. A stimuli is presented (the Rottie) a negative thing happens (being chased and stomped on) the dog is frightened. Now as soon as the stimuli is presented, the dog is automatically frightened. This should be canine learning theory 101 going back to Pavlov's dogs, but so many people assume, that just exposure will desensitize and that is simply not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you I never knew about those trainers! San Luis Obispo is 40mins from my little town but if it helps us with this situation I wouldn't mind making the drive up there a couple of times. 

For desensitizing her I was told to give her high reward treats whenever something happened or someone approached that she would bark at, but giving her treats before she barks. And starting with a big distance between her and the person and slowly moving closer. The problem is I find it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't, I don't know what makes the difference when I'm doing the same thing, it's just different people that are around. 

The previous trainer also said to have her exercise before training, like running and playing. So I did do that, had her run with me while I was on the bike or took her to run free at the beach, she was tired out but still barked like crazy at everything even things she didn't bark at before like birds, so it seemed to me like exercise tires her out, but at the same time makes her hyper. When it's a rainy day like yesterday and were just in home cuddling and sleeping most of the day, then I take her out and she didn't imidietally  bark at the neighbors unless they made loud noises, but I was giving her treats so she actually didn't bark at all. That was rare! So I don't know if she needs a calming remedy. 



By the way I've already tried the sentry calming collars, that one didn't work on her at all. 


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## Little Oscar (Nov 29, 2012)

I would suggest a trainer come to your home. Do the activities in the setting the dog is in, have the trainer come on a walk with you. I know how stressful it can be!


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you Debbie, and Carina, for the links. I finally was able to get my computer going so I can really read through them now. I just got done with "What is a reactive dog", and it was very informative! I'm not really sure the difference between conditioning and desensitizing now because it seems similar to what I had read online and what the last trainer told me, to reward her for being around the stimuli before she reacts. 


Is it normal that when I'm giving her treats (if she accepts it or is even interested in it) and a person is walking by (not too close, there's a big distance but she can hear them walking and see them) she goes crazy eating the treats off of my hand, finishes them real fast, and if I try to lag with 2 seconds in between treating her, she turns around and starts barking at the person or dog and once she is like that I can not get her back to my attention, even when I take her to the other side of the building she continues to lunge and bark even when she can't see them, it takes a minute or two for her to calm down being in a quiet place with no one in sight. And my fingers end up hurting because she's just munching on the treats i'm holding out to her, although she doesn't intend to bite me, she still gets my fingers while she's trying to get the treats.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

BellaNotte said:


> Thank you I never knew about those trainers! San Luis Obispo is 40mins from my little town but if it helps us with this situation I wouldn't mind making the drive up there a couple of times.
> 
> For desensitizing her I was told to give her high reward treats whenever something happened or someone approached that she would bark at, but giving her treats before she barks. And starting with a big distance between her and the person and slowly moving closer. The problem is I find it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't, I don't know what makes the difference when I'm doing the same thing, it's just different people that are around.
> 
> ...


 I would say exercise is a good idea, but if it is making her "stressed" then yes, it could be that she will be worse after. 

Remember, to try to keep her below threshold when you are working on desensitizing. Do not have the people come close too quickly. Do not expect it to work quickly. Keep your sessions short. Give her high value treats. 

If she has gone over threshold, get her out of the situation. Don't continue. Back up, give her a break. When she goes into reactive mode, she and she keeps it up, that is actually teaching as well. It becomes "habit" and so it is the type of learning we call habituation. You want calm to become the default habit. So as much as possible try to keep control of the situation and don't push her over that threshold.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

BellaNotte said:


> Thank you Debbie, and Carina, for the links. I finally was able to get my computer going so I can really read through them now. I just got done with "What is a reactive dog", and it was very informative! I'm not really sure the difference between conditioning and desensitizing now because it seems similar to what I had read online and what the last trainer told me, to reward her for being around the stimuli before she reacts.
> 
> 
> Is it normal that when I'm giving her treats (if she accepts it or is even interested in it) and a person is walking by (not too close, there's a big distance but she can hear them walking and see them) she goes crazy eating the treats off of my hand, finishes them real fast, and if I try to lag with 2 seconds in between treating her, she turns around and starts barking at the person or dog and once she is like that I can not get her back to my attention, even when I take her to the other side of the building she continues to lunge and bark even when she can't see them, it takes a minute or two for her to calm down being in a quiet place with no one in sight. And my fingers end up hurting because she's just munching on the treats i'm holding out to her, although she doesn't intend to bite me, she still gets my fingers while she's trying to get the treats.


I know just what you are talking about, because Cadeau does this too, his intensity is so high and he eats the treats from that "stressed" point. Ideally, you want her to not be so close to her threshold. Distance has a big impact on that. Give her more space. At one training club I went to, they call our dogs "space-dogs" they really need more space than some to keep calm.


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

CloudClan said:


> I know just what you are talking about, because Cadeau does this too, his intensity is so high and he eats the treats from that "stressed" point. Ideally, you want her to not be so close to her threshold. Distance has a big impact on that. Give her more space. At one training club I went to, they call our dogs "space-dogs" they really need more space than some to keep calm.


Could this be one of the reasons that it didn't work out at Petsmart training? Since we were using these methods, rewarding before she reacts and while hearing noises or seeing people, but since it's a store and we went on Sundays when it's full, it was always really noisy and we could only get so far away from people, just to the next isle or something. Could that be why the training failed? The last day of class we were able to walk in and she wasn't barking, BUT she was crying! crying and looking around really fast like looking for a way out, so I just rushed with her to the back of the store where the restrooms are and there was no people, I felt bad for her. But the trainer thought that was progress and it was ok.


Also, if she is reactive towards kids, dogs, and adults. When training her should I first do adults, or can I do adults and dogs at the same time? For instance, have a person with their dog walk by (starting at large distances). I don't know anyone that would be willing to help me just by walking up and down the street while I train Cici to ignore that person walking by until we get to the point where she can get close, so I was thinking to put an ad on Craigslist to see if anyone volunteers with their dog if they have a calm dog, but I don't know if that's a good plan. And I don't know if I should separate humans and dogs during first weeks of training.

I contacted three trainers from the website you provided that are in my area, I heard back from one and I will be giving her a call on Monday to talk about it. I feel like I need to give this one last chance on my own though, and incorporate everything I've learned from your responses. Instead of doing it at stores or parks where there's more than one person, I'll start with one person at a time so she doesn't get too stressed.

Ok so a few questions I have..
1. Can I do the classic conditioning training in my own property or does it have to be in a new territory? (I was thinking of being with her in the driveway while someone walks by on the street.

2. Should I work on one stressor at a time (i.e. dog, adult, child), or can I do adult and dog at the same time and she will understand not to be reactive to either even when they're not together?

3. With the training, am I supposed to expose her to different types of people individually? (i.e. their age, gender, or clothing like hats and umbrellas).

4. When we accidentally go too close and she starts lunging and barking, do I "drag" her away, or pick her up or is there a certain way to get her away? I've read some people saying not to pull the dog away because the dog will think "oh that person must really be dangerous if my owner is scared and trying to run away from them" or something like that. But when she's lunging and barking, dragging her by the leash is the only way I can get her away from the situation, I try calling her and saying "lets go" (I trained her that when I say lets go it means we're going to do a u-turn) but it doesn't work. I feel like she's hurting herself when that happens because sometimes she starts making a coughing/choking type sound.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

BellaNotte said:


> Could this be one of the reasons that it didn't work out at Petsmart training? Since we were using these methods, rewarding before she reacts and while hearing noises or seeing people, but since it's a store and we went on Sundays when it's full, it was always really noisy and we could only get so far away from people, just to the next isle or something. Could that be why the training failed? The last day of class we were able to walk in and she wasn't barking, BUT she was crying! crying and looking around really fast like looking for a way out, so I just rushed with her to the back of the store where the restrooms are and there was no people, I felt bad for her. But the trainer thought that was progress and it was ok.


Yes, I would imagine PetSmart had WAY too much stimuli for her, especially on the busiest days. I don't blame your PetSmart trainer for not recognizing that. This kind of behavior is something that only a small percentage of trainers really understand well. I was going to a good local training club and over-stimulating Cadeau. The trainers there tried to help me and many have many many years of experience working with dogs, but simply have not worked with many reactive dogs or at least didn't know they were working with reactive dogs. 



> Also, if she is reactive towards kids, dogs, and adults. When training her should I first do adults, or can I do adults and dogs at the same time? For instance, have a person with their dog walk by (starting at large distances). I don't know anyone that would be willing to help me just by walking up and down the street while I train Cici to ignore that person walking by until we get to the point where she can get close, so I was thinking to put an ad on Craigslist to see if anyone volunteers with their dog if they have a calm dog, but I don't know if that's a good plan. And I don't know if I should separate humans and dogs during first weeks of training.


I think you want to present her with different pieces of the puzzle and watch for her to tell you what her threshold markers are. Again, try not to push her over threshold, but you should see signs of agitation. You want to keep her just below her reaction threshold. But you can often see signs of it coming before it does if you watch. You should not punish her for showing these signs, they are communication with you. You may notice things like lip licking, tension in her muscles, even low growls before she blows up. These are your signs, use them to let you know where she is at. And watch for these and other signs she may give you. 



> I contacted three trainers from the website you provided that are in my area, I heard back from one and I will be giving her a call on Monday to talk about it. I feel like I need to give this one last chance on my own though, and incorporate everything I've learned from your responses. Instead of doing it at stores or parks where there's more than one person, I'll start with one person at a time so she doesn't get too stressed.
> 
> Ok so a few questions I have..
> 1. Can I do the classic conditioning training in my own property or does it have to be in a new territory? (I was thinking of being with her in the driveway while someone walks by on the street.


I think it could be a good idea to try your own drive-way in addition to other places. You will want to see if your drive-way may actually make her worse rather than better because it is her territory she is protecting. But again, you follow the same techniques in each place you work. Keep her below threshold and reward her there, get her out of the situation if you know she is going to blow. 



> 2. Should I work on one stressor at a time (i.e. dog, adult, child), or can I do adult and dog at the same time and she will understand not to be reactive to either even when they're not together?


One at a time seems like a good plan to me. After you have gotten somewhere, then you can try combining them. 



> 3. With the training, am I supposed to expose her to different types of people individually? (i.e. their age, gender, or clothing like hats and umbrellas).


Yes, you want to try all of this, but again, just start off simple. Don't try to add a lot to the mix now. 



> 4. When we accidentally go too close and she starts lunging and barking, do I "drag" her away, or pick her up or is there a certain way to get her away? I've read some people saying not to pull the dog away because the dog will think "oh that person must really be dangerous if my owner is scared and trying to run away from them" or something like that. But when she's lunging and barking, dragging her by the leash is the only way I can get her away from the situation, I try calling her and saying "lets go" (I trained her that when I say lets go it means we're going to do a u-turn) but it doesn't work. I feel like she's hurting herself when that happens because sometimes she starts making a coughing/choking type sound.


I know exactly what you mean, but you should be trying U-turns before she blows. When she is sub-threshold she probably can still listen to the command. Once she is not, then you don't have a lot of choices. You just have to put distance and so pulling her around is pretty much your only option. Do not be afraid to tell other people to back off you though if they are coming closer, let them know that you are working on training and she needs distance. It can be awkward to tell folks that, but it is something we do to help our dogs. 

By the way, I want to say, this is a process. Cadeau is better, but he is not "cured" and I am not an expert on this, just someone who has studied it a lot to try to help my own reactive dog. I have taken a few classes working with him, paid a small fortune to go to Pat Miller's camp and I feel like what they do makes a lot of sense. Have I still got a reactive dog? Yes, but the main thing is that I now have strategies to deal with him that I did not have before and most importantly, I understand him better than I did before I did all this work, so I am less frustrated. 

You are doing great asking these questions and trying to work with your little one. Too often people just give up working on it with the small dogs and keep them home and isolated.


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## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you Carina I really appreciate all of the info you have provided me with! I'm going to really get down to business now and dedicate more time to doing the training right starting from the beginning. I will be keeping a detailed video record of her progress from day one of training so it can help me better see the progress and see if there's anything I can improve from replaying the videos . 


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## 3malteseboyz (Feb 6, 2008)

When walking her outside...hold the leash lightly...she can feel if you have any tension when holding the leash and she will react to it thinking she needs to sort of protect you. When she starts to bark, immediately turn around and walk in the other direction for a few feet...then turn around again to walk in the first direction...continue doing this until she learns that barking and pulling is not acceptable. She should catch on. When she stops barking give her praise and a small treat.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Carina---What an informative thread! :thumbsup: thank you for taking time to be so specific Carina. Your the best. :wub: I can use this with Sammie's reactive behaviour outside. I know it's from his attack. It stated right afterward. He was a little free spirit just laying in the sun in his stroller on a quiet Sat am and bam 2 labs snatch him from his stroller. The dogs lived across street so he is still looking and growling at that house on walks. The mean lab moved. :thumbsup:
Penny has none of this so far, she is 14 mo now.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Kandis i had totally forgotten about the lab attack, seeing how Sammy was at HH and the drive up and back i would have never of known. I have to say that my CM was the perfect traveler and was so good in HH, i can't wait to get kisses from him again...gosh i just love that boy! :wub:


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Thank you Debbie. That is so sweet. They only have one dog living there and he is real old, but he looks like the mean one, so Sammie thinks it the dog that grabbed him I guess.


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