# BOOK CLUB: The Culture Clash



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Welcome to the SM Book Club! The first book we're going to discuss is as follows:

*The Culture Clash *by Jean Donaldson, available in paperback from all major online and brick and mortar book stores.

Read the book and post your comments in this thread. Do you agree or disagree with the author? Is she on track, in your opinion, or not? 

This is the place to post your opinions on the merits of the book, ask questions regarding various philosophies presented, and the like. Anything related to the book is A-OK........


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

The Maltese Book Club is a great idea. I started reading it tonight and am already on page 60. It's a fast paced book that jumped right into the heart of the book quickly. I wasn't far into the book when I hit my first misconception. The author stated that she feels it is incorrect that dogs want to simply please their owners. I have to digest that one because I've always felt that my dogs wanted nothing more than to make me happy. However, I'm open to the author's theory and it does make sense.

I must say I am so glad that I got this book before bringing IzzyBella home. A lot of the behavior modification should be started at the beginning, although it's not impossible to do it with an older settled dog. I do have a 14 year old Miniature Schnauzer and she is the most well behaved perfect dog. I can see from reading the book, that years ago I did a lot of the authors suggestions without being aware of why I was doing it. A lot of it was/is common sense.

I think the author uses a lot of _fancy schmancy _words but then she throws in a few down-to-earth statements that make me feel comfortable enough to be open to her ideals.

I'll wait till some of you get the book and get caught up before I go much further. I am so happy to be a part of this bookclub.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Great idea Sher! Don't get too far ahead of me though....I'm still waiting for my copy to come in. LOL


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I read the book years ago and thought the same thing. After working with behavior problems with my own clients, I have to say that it is a huge misconception that people have. Some dogs do just adore their owner and do anything, but most dogs are not like that. Most of the ones we see in classes and for private consults are really not like that. But, the owners assume they should be. Jean Donaldson is using psychological learning theory as far as reinforcement and motivation goes. Similar ideas are used for behavior modification in humans, explaining why we have high reciticance (s?) rates with prison, and even in kids with ADHD. Just to give you an idea where she is coming from, Karen Pryor's work with dolphins is what you see at any dolphin show. The whistle they use is the click and the fish is the treat. 

I think the most useful information in the book for most people is about socialization and housetraining. Not everybody cares about learning theory LOL


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

> think the most useful information in the book for most people is about socialization and housetraining.[/B]


I don't want to get too far ahead for those who haven't gotten the book, so I'm slowing down in reading it. BUT I did get to the part about socialization, Jim. It totally makes sense and something I haven't really given much thought about. _I can't wait to get to the housetraining part._ With the author's logical analogies, I can totally see why the socialization really is important. Cricket (our schnauzer) had little to no socialization and that probably explains why at 14, she's very independent and cranky. As long as we meet her needs and don't bother her with fussing and mushy talk, she's fine. 

Please let us know when you all get your book and start reading.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

Anyone else read the first chapter? I did, and I thought it was very interesting. The author does make some contradictory statements though. I was most struck by page 18, where she talks about a dog's anticipation of a reward. She discusses that part of the reward includes the dog's anticipation that he'll be able to return to whatever it was he was doing before the command was given. That sounds like doggie forward thinking to me. On page 11, the author notes that dog's cannot move from past to present to future in their thinking. But isn't her example on page 18 just that? Don't get me wrong, I think the author makes many excellent points, and I am eager to read on. Her 10 conclusions are interesting. I am not sure I agree that dogs only learn through operant and classical conditioning. She seems to ignore any "learning" that has an instinctual basis. I think the author lumps all instinctual behavior into "Pack Theory" and how it relates to dominance, forgetting that other instincts have nothing to do with dominance...pooping for instance. 

For those, like me, who needed a refresher course on some of the Psych 101 terms, check out the following link. Now I'm off to read chapter two.

http://www.biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de/gen...ng/operant.html


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Can we set up a timetable after a book is selected to give everyone a chance to get the book before we start discussing it?

I just ordered it from Amazon.com, but I won't have it until the end of the week. I figured it was easier that wasting gas & time chasing all over town trying to find it as I often find I have to special order from Borders and Barnes and Noble anyway.

I know a few of you already have the book, but if we awaited a week or so, it would give everyone who wants to particpate the opportunity to get a copy.

This is such a great idea!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Hi Marj, I'm thinking that we each will read at our own pace & we may have questions as we're progressing... some will have already read that part and others won't have but can then pay particular attention to it when they get there.

I'm thinking it will be OK if we're at different points in the book. I've read the first little bit but tend to read sporadically in that I may comment on the first chapter but it may indeed be a week before I get to chapter 2.........

That way people can jump in at any time and not feel that they have missed out. The thread can be viable as long as new people are reading and commenting on the book, I think. Does that scenario sound OK?

This first book selection may take a bit of thought to get the details worked out on how the club will function.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I have an idea, how about a separate thread for each chapter? That way, people can post on the thread that corresponds to the chapter they've read. For instance, my post above could go under chapter one. That way everyone could read at their own pace, and not feel either too far ahead or behind. What do you guys think?


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

I love the idea of a book club but I really don't want to get too structured with it. There is so much structure in my life, my career is totally clock oriented and I'd like to just flow with this. I never remember which chapter I'm discussing, I just talk about certain issues as they come up. We will never have a time where all of us are on the same schedule reading-wise so perhaps it's better to just talk about the book generally as points of interest catch our attention.


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## Quincymom (Oct 17, 2004)

What a great idea. I read this book years ago, now I have to find it and re-read!
Quincymom


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by saltymalty_@Jan 31 2005, 05:53 PM
> *I have an idea, how about a separate thread for each chapter?  That way, people can post on the thread that corresponds to the chapter they've read.  For instance, my post above could go under chapter one.   That way everyone could read at their own pace, and not feel either too far ahead or behind.  What do you guys think?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=32598*


[/QUOTE]

I'm drawn to what 20202 suggests .. Maybe we could try that and see if it works... I'm usually a very structured person but for some reason, keeping this flexible appeals to me.....









EDIT: OK... here is a possible compromise... how about if at the top of our posts we simply put the chapter or page number that our comment refers to... that might make it easier to pick and choose what we want to respond to based on where we are in the book.... how does that sound? I might try that a little later.. I have a lot of comments already after just a few pages!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Chapter 1 "Getting the Dog's Perspective"

I have to say that I love the example on page 9 that describes a dog who chews furniture. I have heard of so many people misunderstanding their dog in situations like this.

For those who haven't read this, basically every time the owner sees the dog chewing furniture, the dog is reprimanded. So the dog doesn't chew furniture as long as the owner is home. But when the owner leaves the dog goes back to chewing furniture because he is bored or whatever.

When the owner comes home the dog looks guilty by having ears back, slinking around, etc. 

One view would be that the dog knows chewing furniture is wrong and gets back at the owner for being gone by chewing furniture... knowing it's wrong and feeling guilty afterward. 

However, the view the author supports is that the dog has learned that chewing furniture when the owner is home is dangerous but it is OK when he is gone. When the owner comes home he reprimands the dog, so eventually as soon as the owner comes home, the dog "behaves appeasingly" to avoid the punishment he knows occurs when the owner comes home. 

"The owner's arrival home and/or pre-punishment demeanor have become a predictor: The dog knows he's about to be punished. He doesn't know why." (Donaldson, J., The Culture Clash).

This makes such sense.... I've heard of people saying they came home and they knew their dog did something bad because they looked guilty. They accuse their dog of being vindictive, etc. And the poor dog... he's being reprimanded and doesn't have a clue why.... I wish every dog owner understood this.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

Page 9, K&C's Mom, I agree that this is a great point. Dogs don't have the ability to feel emotions like guilt, or shame (those are uniquely human).


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Sounds like a plan!

I picked up a copy last night at Borders. I got an error message when I ordered one from Amazon.com as apparently I had an old credit card on file so I called around and found one. Barnes & Noble didn't have any and only one of the 3 Borders in this area did. It was $17.95. For those who want to wait, it is cheaper to order online. It was only $12.96 from Barnes and Noble online.

If this is a success, maybe down the line we can even have our own book club section on SM!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Jan 31 2005, 08:26 PM
> *Chapter 1 "Getting the Dog's Perspective"
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Punishment is such a difficult thing to do effectively. I have to admit I so rarely use it because of that. I have to have an effective punishment perfectly times and be sure I can follow up with the appropriate behavior. I usually just ask the dog to do something else instead LOL It works and I rarely say the word no.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Page 10 - Chapter 1 "Getting the Dog's Perspective"

I've just started the book, but what really jumped out at me in chapter one was the idea that we give our dogs the status of honorary humans and use dogs as surrogate children, rather than accepting the real species. I felt that this was particularly applicable to Maltese and other toy breeds.

I notice how often here and on other forums we refer to our Malts as our "babies", "furkids", etc. Look at how we fix their hair and dress them in outfits. We even push them in strollers! I wonder how many of the behaviorial problems we may face later on are created by our treating our Maltese puppies like human babies right from the start rather than dogs.

I was fortunate that I was a "big dog" person before adopting Lady. Still, look at her in her Christmas dress and her hair fixed or her bathing suit picture! I am as guilty as everyone else. I think the fact that she was an adult who was never spoiled (neglected, really) when I adopted her probably accounts for her wonderful behavior and lack of bad habits more than anything I've done since adopting her.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I'm on my way to B&N to pick up my copy. I have to comment on what you wrote, Marj. I agree with you completely about people treating their dogs like children. I actully refer to mine as babies, BUT I recognize that they are dogs and I don't let them run our house. As you've probably heard me say before, we had a cocker spaniel during dental school, pre children, that ruled the house. We were too stupid to know that she had to learn her place in the pack. What she learned was that she was totally in charge and we fostered this behaviour. Before we got Jolie the Bichon we did some much needed research and have raised a polite, well behaved dog that is still treated like a queen, but a dog queen. I've already had an uncontrollable dog that I helped to make that way, and I'm NEVER going to be there again. I look forward to reading this first chapter for myself but I agree with what you've commented on thus far.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Maltese should be labeled "not for beginners", huh? It is much easier to stay aware of the fact that they are dogs when you've had other dogs, especially one that has had behavorial problems. (Mine was Springer Spaniel I talked about under Kristi's post on Lexi biting her).

I think a happy, well adjusted dog is the result of treating them like a dog, not a human. I am always amazed in reading posts from other Maltese owners over the years how many people believe that their Maltese potties inappropriately because they are being spiteful or growl or bite because they are mad or resentful about something their human did.

So far it seems like its us old timers who are reading this book. It would be nice of some new Maltese owners joined us and shared how they handle their particular situation and if they've had any problems/successes as a result.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

Marj, FYI...I found my copy of the book at Petsmart.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Great! I never thought to check there.


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## mee (Jul 17, 2004)

my dog trainer said that the author of Culture Clash was her teacher at her training school when she atteneded, i think the school is in San Francisco, 

im looking up Half.com for my copy and will be ordering it today


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

well this is my last week of school, then i', off for a month before i enter the clinic world. looks like u guys gave me something to do during my break! do we know what the next book will be??? cause if i can spend 25$ shipping is free...and i dont think i need any other books at the moment


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LadyMontava_@Feb 1 2005, 06:47 PM
> *well this is my last week of school, then i', off for a month before i enter the clinic world.  looks like u guys gave me something to do during my break!  do we know what the next book will be??? cause if i can spend 25$ shipping is free...and i dont think i need any other books at the moment
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=32856*


[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean about the free shipping.... check out PetSmart perhaps ?

Anyway, I have not a clue about the next book. At the rate we're going, I imagine we'll be on this one for quite a while!!


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## mee (Jul 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Feb 1 2005, 07:09 PM-->
> 
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I know what you mean about the free shipping.... check out PetSmart perhaps ?

Anyway, I have not a clue about the next book. At the rate we're going, I imagine we'll be on this one for quite a while!!








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=32857
[/B][/QUOTE]

maybe u guys could read 

How To Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication
by Stanley Coren 

i bought it about 3 yearss ago and loved the book and im reading it for the 3rd time right now, i dunno what u guys would think about it ,but thats the book helped me understand how dogs communicated


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mee+Feb 1 2005, 07:14 PM-->
> 
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*
*[/QUOTE]

maybe u guys could read 

How To Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication
by Stanley Coren 

i bought it about 3 yearss ago and loved the book and im reading it for the 3rd time right now, i dunno what u guys would think about it ,but thats the book helped me understand how dogs communicated
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=32858
[/B][/QUOTE]

Personally, I'd like to get through this book first.... Too much to think about the next one!!







Let's keep that one in mind, though.... it might be the way to go....


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mee+Feb 1 2005, 07:14 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*[/QUOTE]

maybe u guys could read 

How To Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication
by Stanley Coren 

i bought it about 3 yearss ago and loved the book and im reading it for the 3rd time right now, i dunno what u guys would think about it ,but thats the book helped me understand how dogs communicated
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=32858
[/B][/QUOTE]
heh my hubby bought me that book a few years ago, but it was right before vetschool and never got around to it...guess if it is the next book, i have it


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## maltx3 (Dec 23, 2004)

I just purchased this book last week!!! Haven't had a chance to start reading it yet, but hope to by the weekend. What a great idea to have a SM book club


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Marj, I think you hit this head on. I didn't realize it until I started apprenticing on behavior cases and then seeing my own clients. The most common problem in small dogs is that they are out of control because of lack of rules and training. I always insist that my dogs have the same manners no matter if they weigh 80 lbs or 5 lbs. You can still spoil them and have rules.


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

Im going tomorrow to get the book.This is a great idea!


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

> So far it seems like its us old timers who are reading this book. It would be nice of some new Maltese owners joined us[/B]


  I don't even have my Maltese yet, you can't get much newer than that.

I really enjoy this book. I'm getting into the meat of it now. I'm anxious for those of you who haven't read the book to get it and get started on it.


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

Has anyone else started the book? What are your thoughts so far? I'm really getting into it. I tried to discuss it with the vet today but she kinda cut me off with a quick "I didn't read it".







Not sure what that meant but....


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 20202_@Feb 4 2005, 12:32 AM
> *Has anyone else started the book?  What are your thoughts so far?  I'm really getting into it.  I tried to discuss it with the vet today but she kinda cut me off with a quick "I didn't read it".
> 
> 
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[/QUOTE]

I've only had a chance to read a few pages. So far, I find her approach to be very different from everything I've ever read. So, it will take some open mindedness on my part!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I've only read the first chapter and part of the second, but I am impressed so far. I've had dogs all my life and everything she says to this point about their motivation (what's in it for me attitude) seem right on.

I'm anxious to read more, but have too much going on lately!


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

I went wed. to get the book.BUT I had to order it, our B&N is out of it.They said 5-11 business days







I ope it gets here fast.This is s great idea!


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I'm nearly done with the first chapter. The information is interesting so far, but it is not an easy read book. I read all the time, and I find this one is reading like a college textbook. I hope it gets better because my eyes glaze over. I can only read a few pages at a time. Guess I've been away from college for WAY tooooooo long.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by msmagnolia_@Feb 4 2005, 12:15 PM
> *I'm nearly done with the first chapter.  The information is interesting so far, but it is not an easy read book.  I read all the time, and I find this one is reading like a college textbook.  I hope it gets better because my eyes glaze over.  I can only read a few pages at a time.  Guess I've been away from college for WAY tooooooo long.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=33409*


[/QUOTE]

I plan to read more this weekend. Reading it before bed with a cup of herbal tea is like taking a sedative!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins_@Feb 5 2005, 12:03 AM
> *The library where I work has this book, but it is out until March, darn it, so I may just go ahead and buy the book anyways - it sounds interesting.  If I get the chance to speak to the instructor that has the book out, she teaches animal behaviour in the Animal Health Tech program, I will find out from her what she thinks of the book and if she is going to use some these methods in her training - which should be any time now.  The Animal Healt Tech program takes dogs that have been turned into the shelter and the students work with them for a few months socializing them before adopting the dogs out - so it will be curious to see if she has used Jean's methods on the dogs.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=33552*


[/QUOTE]

You may want to buy it, Maryilyn, because I think it is one that is good for our own home "doggy library". It is available in paperback. For me, I think I'll end up going back to it from time to time for a refresher of the author's points, etc. And besides that.... would love to have you in the book club and have you share your thougths on the book with us.....!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by msmagnolia_@Feb 4 2005, 12:15 PM
> *I'm nearly done with the first chapter.  The information is interesting so far, but it is not an easy read book.  I read all the time, and I find this one is reading like a college textbook.  I hope it gets better because my eyes glaze over.  I can only read a few pages at a time.  Guess I've been away from college for WAY tooooooo long.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=33409*


[/QUOTE]
Well, glad I'm not the only one who is having this problem... it is definitely not a book that one can skim over quickly.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Feb 5 2005, 07:51 AM-->
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Well, glad I'm not the only one who is having this problem... it is definitely not a book that one can skim over quickly.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=33569
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As I do grad school applications, I guess I didn't notice this about the book LOL I've been sucked into college for too long.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Feb 5 2005, 06:52 PM
> *As I do grad school applications, I guess I didn't notice this about the book LOL I've been sucked into college for too long.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=33693*


[/QUOTE]

I got a chunk of the book read today while I was waiting for my car to be serviced. I found that I read it like I would a school book.... made notes in the margins, underlined things, etc. I'll try to post some thoughts soon!


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

My book looks like a text book too. I've highlighted, stickynoted it and have several book marks in it. It is not an easy book to read in my opinion. At times I wished the author would just speak it in english already.







I learned that if I skim a few paragraphs and then reread it as an overall point, it goes much easier. I think the author says the same thing in several different ways and I'm trying to over-read, if that makes sense.

I really agree with her points. I've already begun teaching IzzyBella in the style the books suggests. Izzy thinks we are having play time but she's really learning to not bite people, to come when she's called and to enjoy grooming. I dig in her ears, pick at her feet and teeth, give her a treat, etc. I've used the book to introduce our older Cricket to Izzy. Cricket is 14 and pretty independent but boy-o-boy does she love her treats. Every morning for 10 minutes I put the dogs together and use treats to socialize them. Izzy is all for it but Cricket is a little standoffish.

I've used this book's theory to teach Izzy that if she's fussing and whining she won't get picked up. When she's playing nicely by herself we pick her up and love all over her. When she whines and fusses, we walk away. When we are "puppy wrestling" with her and she nips too hard, we screech OUCH and pull back. I tell her that a puppy who bites, plays alone. 

Has anyone else begun implementing ideas from the author?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Oh yes. Mikey was socialized according to a similar plan. We also did a lot of generalization stuff (learning the behavior in a variety of environments). All of the training I do is based on motivation and learning theory. I find I get fast results without the frustration. My dog is happy and there is no yelling or telling them no constantly. 

One fun thing we did was go to a new place every week for the first few months. It was easy to find some place be it a park, store, mall, vet's office, etc. He tagged along to shows and training classes just to hang out and be handled. I think it made all the difference. I don't think Mikey is every phased by anything. Of course, Mikey was 4 months and done with his vaccines when I got him. You should stick close to home and friend's houses that you know are safe until the vaccines are done.


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

One thing I did learn from the book _that I'm aware of all the time now _is that every single thing a dog does is setting the trend for future behavior. Every "mistake" is implemented in their brain as a familiar behavior and our job is to switch those triggers. I have my husband reading the book also we're on the same page because you have to be consistant.

I wasn't as diligent with our schnauzer and consequently she is territorial about her bed. She will snap at us if we touch her when she's in her bed. I can clearly see how we failed to nip that in the bud and now it's a learned behavior of hers.

The book is teaching me to be more aware of each interaction with the dog because the dog takes it much more seriously than we do.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I got some good reading done this weekend while I was in Louisville with my daughter. I'll post my thoughts tomorrow. The reading got better, the further into the book that I went. LOL


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

I just have to say this is an excellent idea\topic, to discuss books! I have been lurking here for a few days, and just found this and I had to post as I was thrilled to see such a great idea. I guess its time for me to go introduce myself!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Holliberry_@Feb 8 2005, 12:09 PM
> *I just have to say this is an excellent idea\topic, to discuss books!  I have been lurking here for a few days, and just found this and I had to post as I was thrilled to see such a great idea.  I guess its time for me to go introduce myself!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=34185*


[/QUOTE]
Welcome to SM... be sure and introduce yourself in the "Introduce" section. Hope you'll join our book club!


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

Last night I got into the part where the author states her belief that dogs don't know the difference between right and wrong but they do know the difference between dangerous and safe. That makes so much sense to me. Anybody else get that far? What are your thoughts on that belief?

The book is getting much more enjoyable now that the theory section is behind me and I'm reading how to apply the theory.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 20202_@Feb 8 2005, 02:59 PM
> *Last night I got into the part where the author states her belief that dogs don't know the difference between right and wrong but they do know the difference between dangerous and safe.  That makes so much sense to me.  Anybody else get that far?  What are your thoughts on that belief?
> 
> The book is getting much more enjoyable now that the theory section is behind me and I'm reading how to apply the theory.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=34235*


[/QUOTE]

Alas, dogs are not moral beings. Something that is dangerous hurts or has other negative consequences. Something that is safe has no consequences or is rewarding. I would agree with that.


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

Now that I'm into the nuts and bolts of this book, I'm seriously thinking about getting a clicker. When I started the book, I thought I'd take what wisdom I could use and leave the rest because I had no interest in using a clicker, but now I think a clicker might be a viable option.

For those of you who are reading the book also, do you intend to use a clicker? Have you ever used a clicker? Any thoughts on the convenience/inconvenience of using a clicker?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I use the clicker to teach a lot of new behaviors because I am much faster at marking the behavior with the clicker and it is easier for me. You can also simply use your voice with a specific word (yes, for example) to mark the behavior and follow up with the treat. I have found that using this method really speeds up learning for my dogs.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

CHAPTER 2 HARD WIRING

Being a cat person, I am well aware of cat's instinct to hunt and chase prey, but never really thought about it as far as dogs go. The predatory nature of dogs discussed in this chapter sure made sense to me, especially the section on the Art of Chew Toy Stuffing (pages 45-46).

Lady is a chew toy fanatic! We have a Buster Cube, Kong, Biscuit Ball, Tricky Treat Ball and Busy Buddy Twist and Treat. She eats most of her meals this way.
I put her kibble in her Buster Cube and she gets her green beans in her Twist and Treat. Lady has a tendency to gobble her food - to the point of vomiting it right up. Since Buster only dispenses one piece of kibble at at time, it forces her to pick it up and chew it rather than just inhaling it from her bowl. Plus, she gets very intense about these toys. You should see her work them, manuevering around table legs, etc. She has mastered the "art"!

The author makes the case for making a dog work for much if not all of his food ration which reassured me. She says that free feeding goes against a dog's nature. She also says that the vast majority of dogs are severely underchallenged in their day to day life so these kind of toys provide much needed stimulation and satisfies their need to search, chase, bite, hold and dissect.

And of course, not having to clean up dog puke is a real plus although that's not in the book!

I think this would also work well for a fussy eater. Anybody tried it?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The treat toys definately work for fussy eaters (MIKEY) LOL


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks Ladys MOM,Im going ot try that for Bailey(he picks at his food)


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

I have to say this book's theory does work. If you can get past the author's often patronizing tone and take the theory at face value, it's a great learning tool. Jean Donaldson is clearly on to something, I would love to have read this book written in a more personable approach. I might be the only person to think this, but in my opinion the author used confusing words and terms that could have been simplified. Having said that, if you can get past that, the book is excellent.

Let me give you an example of how I've applied the book's teaching and how it DOES work. My IzzyBella is 11 weeks old. She's a mass of wiggling energy with the attention span of a flea. BUT by using the book's theory and training tips, Izzy will already come hurrying to me when I call her, even if she's completely involved in killing her favorite pink reindeer. She flies to a halt in front of me and sits. She SITS already! I click and treat her and off she goes. We are now starting on the STAY command. She held a sit/stay for almost a minute while eyeballing the treat. I didn't make her wait more than a minute because I don't want to lose the ground I've gained by her young attention span. It's amazing. 

I'm convinced it's the teachings in this book that created my "smart" little girl.

Has anyone else gotten further in the book?


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

I finally got the book but I can't remember what page I am on, being that I'm at work at the moment. I am at the part where she is talking about teaching the dogs to "soft" bite before no bite. I am glad I got the book.

I am so curious about your clicker training though! Its working? I found a trainer local to me that I might just go to since my other class was cancelled due to snow last night







She has on her web site that she uses clicker training but I was not sure I wanted to go that route either, much like you said. How is it? I'm sure the book will help if I can find more time to read. 

This sunday she is having an agility day camp for no experience necessary dogs so I am seriously considering it. Just to see her and how she operates. Its a long day though for a puppy but she uses the clicker and my girl doesnt know what that is yet. Is it something that once you do you need to stick with, or can it be used sometimes and not others? or am I totally off?

thanks!!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Holliberry_@Feb 25 2005, 11:25 AM
> *I finally got the book but I can't remember what page I am on, being that I'm at work at the moment.  I am at the part where she is talking about teaching the dogs to "soft" bite before no bite.  I am glad I got the book.
> 
> I am so curious about your clicker training though!  Its working?  I found a trainer local to me that I might just go to since my other class was cancelled due to snow last night
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Has Phoebe had all her shots yet? If I remember correctly, she's pretty young. It's really not a good idea to expose a puppy to other dogs in situations like that (or pet stores, dog parks, etc.), until they have had all their puppy shots.

Can you just go by yourself to observe? I would think it would be very worthwhile even "dogless".

Now you've motivated me to continue reading. I kind of stopped because it seemed like our book club fizzled out. I got ahead of everybody.


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Feb 25 2005, 12:58 PM
> *Has Phoebe had all her shots yet? If I remember correctly, she's pretty young.
> 
> Now you've motivated me to continue reading. I kind of stopped because it seemed like our book club fizzled out. I got ahead of everybody.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think so. Maybe I will call the vet to be sure, but Phoebe was already 15 (almost 17 now) weeks by the time I got her. The day before I got her she was due for her rabies shot, and the breeder had that done. I dont know when her next shots are due off the top of my head but were you thinking she was alot younger than that?

I am trying to read as much as I can each night. I think I am on chapter 3 or 4. I cant wait to get to POTTY TRAINING!!!


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

I felt the same way about the clicker as you, Holliberry, but I proved myself wrong. I love the clicker. It's like a magic button that Izzy responded to almost immediately. I spent one entire week doing nothing but click treat, click treat, click treat so that Izzy soon learned that everytime she heard that click she was getting a treat. Then when she happened to sit in front of me one day, I clicked and treated her. You could see her processing that and wondering what she did to get that click so she wiggled on the floor, no click or treat. Then she rolled over, still no click and treat. She sat back down and lo and behold got the click and treat. She knew right away that was the thing that earned her the click and treat. I am making myself stick to one command a week but I know she could do anything I wanted to teach her because she knows that when she hears the click, she has done something that will earn her a treat.

Didn't mean to ramble but I'm excited about this method. I'm at the point now where Izzy doesn't get a click and treat everytime she sits. She only gets one now and then, just enough to keep her interested in taking the chance on getting one. :lol

I would suggest buying more than one clicker because I hate when the clicker isn't handy. I've noticed something really funny. Izzy never used to lift her back leg while peeing. When she's in her playpen and pees on her pad, she lifts her back leg slightly and looks at me. Apparently I clicked one too many times when she was peeing with that leg up and now she thinks that it's something I want her to do. Dogs are so smart. I never realized before how smart they are.

Do stick with the book, it's really good.


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

I will









I guess I'm confused as to why you need that extra "click" and not just a treat? Is it that you might not be as quick with a treat so you want to make sure you immediately give the "good" signal? 

Not to go off subject, but my chiropractor has a Chiuaua (sp?) and we always laugh how they lift that back leg to pee, and she said that its more comfortable for them for one reason or another (I dont know exactly). Holli did that her entire life and one time she had an adjustment and she stopped doing it. It cant be anything serious but I thought I'd throw that out there from my mental library.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Holliberry_@Feb 25 2005, 03:15 PM
> *I will
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Most people cannot give a treat fast enough to mark the exact behavior they want. On a sit, the moment that bum hits the ground is what you want to mark. Can you have the treat in the dog's mouth at that moment? This is where the clicker comes in handy. It is a fast, easily distinguished sound that marks the behavior and then you pay. The dog, however, knows what you marked and so you can build on that behavior. This is why timing with the clicker is so important. You click too late and you marked a different behavior! It is better to click early rather than late.


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

I have found that a hungry Izzy is a better learner. During her three meals a day (it's just wet kibble, she has access to dry kibble 24/7) I feed her by hand her entire meal. She thinks she is getting treats but in actuality she is eating her meal. One command, click, a bite of lunch. Another command, click, a bite of lunch. Morning meal time is the best, she's so darn attentive then.

I save the special treats like dried liver, sliced baby meat sticks etc for the big events, like going on the pee pad.


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## doctorcathy (May 17, 2004)

hey! i just wanted to say that i got the book today....and i WILL be reading it!! 

i'll post again when i have read something.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins_@Mar 14 2005, 08:22 PM
> *I just got the book from the library, and WOW I have only read the first chapter, and skipped ahead to read a segment out of the second chapter.  It is a great book.
> 
> I can it being a great reference book to have at hand, so I am going to go ahead and order one.  Six weeks (that is the loan period) to read this book, implement,  and absorb it all and remember it all is not long enough.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Hi Marilyn, yes, just post your thoughts as you read. And yes, you're right, this is a book to keep and refer back to. I had planned to post about the book but after I get home from work my brain is so fried that I can't get in to something so serious. I have read quite a bit but now have forgotten what I read!! I need to start over!!









I'll try to get back to reading and commenting on it soon!!


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

I think we decided to each read the book at our own pace and comment upon it as it strikes us. I'm glad you got the book, it's great. I highly recommend it.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I thought I would revive this thread from early Spring. We have so many new members that I thought maybe they would enjoy the info in this thread and that maybe we could revive our discussions.....


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