# Jack nipped a guy



## drclee (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi All,
Jack and Jill are very reactive, so we've been doing our best in working with them. Even the trainer we hired had a really, really hard time with Jack and really made NO progress. :smilie_tischkante: Anyways, typically they LOVE people and get really yappy with other dogs, but yesterday as my husband was taking them out for their run, Jack nipped a guy. :w00t: I wasn't there, but my husband said he was walking out of the complex from one door and the guy was walking out from another door, so there was no way for them to see each other. But as soon as Jack saw him, he jumped up and nipped him on his thigh. My husband doesn't think it was a bite, more like a playful nip, but nonetheless, it's completely unacceptable! :angry: Thank goodness they guy was very kind about it and let it go, but I'm just petrified. He has never done this before and I really don't know what could have triggered it. Now I'm even more nervous to take him out because there's always people around - how can I ensure he doesn't do this again? :smhelp: I thought about buying a muzzle, but I'd rather have a solution than a quick fix. Plus, how sad to see a cute white dog with a muzzle? :brownbag: I know I'd be sad if I saw one.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

It sounds like Jack was surprised by the guy? I think surprises are triggers for reactive dogs? Sorry this happened. I think my trainer would say have people surprise him and then give him high value treats? Just guessing here...Hope you figure out a good solution.


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## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

I know you are just sick about this but I would keep working with a trainer to see what can be done. I wonder if the guy unknowingly sent off some kind of signal that scared your pup. It does need to be attended too though. So sorry!!!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Gosh this just happened with Jill this past summer. I really thought that after that incident you weren't going to have just one person take them on outings anymore. I'm really not trying to be mean, but both of these incidents happened at your apartment complex. If word gets out, you could have a real problem and it really scares me for you and J&J. I know you have a trainer, but I really urge you to always go out with them together. Or if there is only one of you available, to take them one at a time. How long of a lead do you have them on? Hopefully it's not a retractable lead. Ever since my Zoe tried to nip at my niece's former bf, I have her on a very short lead. She's never tried anything like that again but I won't take any chances. Hers was clearly a warning 'air nip', but unacceptable none the less. When she's on a short, 4ft lead (which I even shorten in my hand) she can't get any further away from me then a few inches.

I'm really sorry this happened and hopefully your trainer will be able to help you guys work on this. With the way laws are about dog bites, this is something I would not take lightly at all.


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## drclee (Jul 16, 2008)

QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Feb 18 2010, 10:33 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=887426


> Gosh this just happened with Jill this past summer. I really thought that after that incident you weren't going to have just one person take them on outings anymore. I'm really not trying to be mean, but both of these incidents happened at your apartment complex. If word gets out, you could have a real problem and it really scares me for you and J&J. I know you have a trainer, but I really urge you to always go out with them together. Or if there is only one of you available, to take them one at a time. How long of a lead do you have them on? Hopefully it's not a retractable lead. Ever since my Zoe tried to nip at my niece's former bf, I have her on a very short lead. She's never tried anything like that again but I won't take any chances. Hers was clearly a warning 'air nip', but unacceptable none the less. When she's on a short, 4ft lead (which I even shorten in my hand) she can't get any further away from me then a few inches.
> 
> I'm really sorry this happened and hopefully your trainer will be able to help you guys work on this. With the way laws are about dog bites, this is something I would not take lightly at all.[/B]


I agree that this is very problematic. But it's just unrealistic to not take them out unless my husband and I are together because of our work schedules. It would basically mean they never got out except weekends and that is not ok with me. Hubby takes them out for a 5-6 mile run every night and I think it's really good for them. They are always on a coupler with a 4' leash. I admit, my husband is a bit slower when it comes to reacting than I am. If I was there, I probably would have been able to hold them closer to me as soon as I saw the guy, but he did not. We talked about this last night in length and I told him he needs to hold the leash really close or just hold the dogs - one in each arm. Whenever there's someone in the elevator, we let them go ahead and wait for it to be empty. When we're passing others, we get as far away as possible and place our bodies between the dogs and the people. 

We worked with a trainer for 6 weeks and like I said, she made NO progress. I quite frankly do not wish to continue throwing $90/hour down the toilet for no results. She was a highly experienced trainer and yet she could not figure out how to help him. It really may just boil down to keeping him in a muzzle every time we go out. I am going during my lunch to buy some and each time they leave and enter the complex, they will have them on.


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## drclee (Jul 16, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Feb 18 2010, 09:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=887392


> It sounds like Jack was surprised by the guy? I think surprises are triggers for reactive dogs? Sorry this happened. I think my trainer would say have people surprise him and then give him high value treats? Just guessing here...Hope you figure out a good solution.[/B]


I think you're right about them being surprised. And that's a great idea - we will definitely start doing that ASAP!


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## drclee (Jul 16, 2008)

QUOTE (CeeCee's Mom @ Feb 18 2010, 10:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=887418


> I know you are just sick about this but I would keep working with a trainer to see what can be done. I wonder if the guy unknowingly sent off some kind of signal that scared your pup. It does need to be attended too though. So sorry!!![/B]


I agree with the "weird signal" too. Even on walks, they'll be perfectly fine with some people, then with others, it's like they're on high alert! We will continue to work on this.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE (drclee @ Feb 18 2010, 10:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=887437


> I agree that this is very problematic. But it's just unrealistic to not take them out unless my husband and I are together because of our work schedules. It would basically mean they never got out except weekends and that is not ok with me. Hubby takes them out for a 5-6 mile run every night and I think it's really good for them. They are always on a coupler with a 4' leash. I admit, my husband is a bit slower when it comes to reacting than I am. If I was there, I probably would have been able to hold them closer to me as soon as I saw the guy, but he did not. We talked about this last night in length and I told him he needs to hold the leash really close or just hold the dogs - one in each arm. Whenever there's someone in the elevator, we let them go ahead and wait for it to be empty. When we're passing others, we get as far away as possible and place our bodies between the dogs and the people.
> 
> We worked with a trainer for 6 weeks and like I said, she made NO progress. I quite frankly do not wish to continue throwing $90/hour down the toilet for no results. She was a highly experienced trainer and yet she could not figure out how to help him. So if I sound frustrated and exasperated, it's because I am. It really may just boil down to keeping him in a muzzle every time we go out.[/B]


If you were making zero progress with your trainer, I'd get a new one. I went to a trainer for the first year with Jax and his reactive behavior was not getting better (it actually got worse and he was just a puppy). I am now with a different trainer and he has made about a 170 degree turn (we aren't quite to a 180  ). Our first trainer is well known, well qualified, but she was not working for us. 

Also - your trainer should be giving you things to work on when they are not around and you need to do that work. Training is not only when you are with the trainer, but all the time. You need to work with each dog separately as well as together. If you feel a muzzle is necessary while you are training then that is an option, however not a solution (as you've said). 

You seem to be doing things halfway from what I can tell. You get in between the dogs and the people, great, but how are you reinforcing the dogs for behaving appropriately? This is something a trainer should be working with you in person on. As I said, if you aren't making progress with the one you have, find a new one. You should see some improvement within 6 weeks, but it is not something that will happen quickly. Jax and I have been working for over a year and he is still reactive. He is good about 97% of the time, then the other 3% he isn't... It's a long process but SO worth it!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I can totally understand your frustration and I would be right there with you. And I'm sorry you are not getting any results with the trainer you hired. Are there any other trainers you might like to try? I really think finding the right trainer for you and your fluffs is just as difficult as finding the right Dr., hair stylist, dentist, vet, etc... I know I had to try several of a couple of these to find the right 'fit'. 

Just a thought...what has your trainer been having you do with J&J when they are being reactive? I'm by no means the expert, but maybe there will be others who can offer suggestions.

As for not being able to take them out with both of you together, I really think I 2.5 to 3 mile run every night is more then enough for these little ones. Would your hubby be willing to take them one at a time? He would still get in his 5-6 mile run but also have some one on one time with them. Just a thought.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

1. Find a new trainer. If a trainer cannot give you adequate guidance, they should refer you to someone else. You need to find a trainer who is experienced in small reactive dogs. One method does not work for every dog. The trainer need to be able to adjust the plan to the individual dog. You can search apdt.com and I would look for a CPDT. OR you can get a referral to a veterinary behaviorist from your vet. 

2. Have control of your dog's head. Since you are unable to do this verbally, I suggest using a head collar (I've always like the Gentle Leader, but Mandy just sent me a Comfort Trainer for Roo which I like because the nose strap is much smaller than the GL). Head halters should be used with a 4-6 ft leash and you cannot use the coupler with it - 2 leashes. 

3. A muzzle is a good safety tool, but you need to get a basket muzzle so the dog can open their mouth and pant, especially for exercise. 

4. Do some learning on your own! I would start with:
Jean Donaldson's Dogs are from Neptune and Culture Clash
Ali Brown's Scaredy Dog
Anything Patricia McConnell has written
If you look on dogwise.com you will find quality books as opposed to just searching on amazon. 

5. If you aren't familiar with clicker training, go to Karen Pryor's website and get a kit. Clicker training is a good way to be clear to your dogs what you want and it produces a positive emotion which can help with fear.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Feb 18 2010, 11:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=887459


> 2. Have control of your dog's head. Since you are unable to do this verbally, I suggest using a head collar (I've always like the Gentle Leader, but Mandy just sent me a Comfort Trainer for Roo which I like because the nose strap is much smaller than the GL). Head halters should be used with a 4-6 ft leash and you cannot use the coupler with it - 2 leashes.[/B]


Yes! The Comfort Trainers are awesome. I say it's like power steering for a dog!  Works great for reactive dogs. We also have done a TON of focus/attention/eye contact work!


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## drclee (Jul 16, 2008)

QUOTE (JMM @ Feb 18 2010, 11:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=887459


> 1. Find a new trainer. If a trainer cannot give you adequate guidance, they should refer you to someone else. You need to find a trainer who is experienced in small reactive dogs. One method does not work for every dog. The trainer need to be able to adjust the plan to the individual dog. You can search apdt.com and I would look for a CPDT. OR you can get a referral to a veterinary behaviorist from your vet.
> 
> 2. Have control of your dog's head. Since you are unable to do this verbally, I suggest using a head collar (I've always like the Gentle Leader, but Mandy just sent me a Comfort Trainer for Roo which I like because the nose strap is much smaller than the GL). Head halters should be used with a 4-6 ft leash and you cannot use the coupler with it - 2 leashes.
> 
> ...



Thanks, JMM, I was waiting for your response 

The trainer I used was from the apdt.com website. In fact, she's the second one I've used from that website and neither have panned out for us. I will be sure to get a basket muzzle. But I only plan on putting it on them when we're entering and exiting our complex. When we're on walks or running, I'll remove it. 
You're the first person to tell us to stop using the coupler - it never occurred to us. I will look into the comfort trainer.
We have a clicker from Karen Pryor - I guess I just need more experience knowing exactly when to click.
I will do my best and follow your advice. Thanks again.


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## Lindy (Mar 25, 2009)

Call Cesar!


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## Missy&Maggie (Jun 17, 2007)

I would recommend looking for a trainer or even behaviorist who has worked with reactive dogs. We are currently in reactive dog class and you really need to work with each dog on their own. I also wouldn't use a coupler. For class we are using harnesses because of Maggie and Abbie's size, but I'm going to look into the comfort trainer that Mandy suggested. My fiance is in one cubby with one of our girls and I'm in another cubby with the other during class. We have a lot of homework from each class.

Our behaviorist recommend a dvd called The Language of Dog to begin to be able to read your dogs' signals, because they give us signals that we usually miss or ignore.

Also with a reactive dog, you always have be on the look out for the things that set them off and be prepared. You can't ignore a reactive dog. We don't walk our girls together because they seem to be more reactive together. It is a lot of hard work and takes a lot of time, but it is what's best for them.

Clicker training is something that was part of our pre-class homework. We have also been working on watch, let it, and many more things.


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

JMM gives great advice. Definitely a new trainer to help you with Jack and taking him out to places with people and other dogs. Pasha lunges at other dogs so we're now trying to teach him to ignore them. It's hard because there are not a lot of other dogs in our neighbourhood so Pasha gets territorial when he sees one and they all just want to come over and say hello.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Not all trainers are well versed in behavior problems. Many primarily do basic obedience and manners. You really have to interview them to find out if they are a match for you and your dogs. In your case I would ask:
Do you have experience with reactive dogs? What methods do you use to treat it (answers may include classical conditioning, reinforcing calm behavior, teaching alternative behaviors like what me, turn and walk away with click/treat for good behavior)?
Have you worked with many small reactive dogs?
Will you provide a written behavior modification plan? 
What sort of information will you need from me? This would include filling out detailed questionnaires about your dog's behavior, interviews with you, etc. It is more than just coming in and starting training. A detailed history and observation of current behavior is key to forming a behavior modification plan. 

Have you read much about the clicker? You might want to get a book to help explain the theory or check clickersolutions.com and read some articles. The clicker works like a camera. It takes a picture of the behavior you want. It then bridges the time between the behavior and the reward. It allows us to be much more precise in telling our dogs what we want. If you click, you must treat. Even if you didn't mean to click, you must treat. The clicker is used to build new behaviors or to provide extra reinforcement in a difficult situation. You won't be carrying it around forever. 

Clicking for calm behavior means being able to recognize it. Turid Rugaas has a short and sweet book about dog language called Calming Signals. I would absolutely order it. Patricia McConnnell's For the Love of a Dog also has a great explanation of dog body language - but it is a long and sometimes technical read.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I realize that Long Beach and Hermosa/Redondo aren't super close, but I have a great trainer here who has worked with me and Stuart on his reactivity. Rebecca is excellent and does private and group classes. One of the things I did with Stuart that took him really far with confidence and his reactiveness was to enroll in her Canine Good Citizen prep class. Originally I did it just to build confidence for Stuart and let him see he could be around strangers and strange dogs and be safe with me. I had no expectations that he would pass, but he did and with flying colors! The class is at a park in Hermosa Beach and the new session starts this Saturday from 11:30-12:30 for 6 weeks. The 6th week is the test. I am enrolled with Reina this time. 

You can find more info here. I hope you can make it, it will be fun to have another maltese in class!


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

After reading Jackies response, I went back to look for the list of questions our Holistic Vet asked of Dakota for her 'reactive' issues, my response to these questions was also shared with our trainer ..... I don't know if it's helpful to you, but I will copy it here:

QUOTE


> *Please answer all questions that apply to your pet to the best of your ability, even if some of them seem strange.*
> 
> 1. Pet Name –
> 
> ...


These questions really forced me to take notice, which I thought I already was, but when it came time to write it down, I had to actually think quite hard about it, I think it took me nearly 2 hours to complete, and from memory ended up being some 11 - ish pages long! 

Granted, these questions were from the Holistic Vet, and most likely a fairly generic form, but it may help you to really think about the things that trigger your pup/s behaviour. If nothing else, it might be worth asking yourself these questions, to help you give detailed information to your trainer - afterall, a trainer can only work with what we tell them. Some questions may seem un-important to us, but to a trainer, it may be a very significant detail, and taken into consideration when they plan a recommended training program.

Good luck!


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