# So you want "just one litter"



## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

For all those holding off spaying for "just one litter" for yourself or friends or family. Sorry to say IMO that makes yall no better than a byb or puppymill you probably got your dog from. A quality breeder is more than likely going to sell on a spay nueter contract to prevent this from happening.



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Compliments of www.woodhavenlabs.com 

So you want to breed your female. You know what to expect if everything goes right. Your little girl will present you with tiny bundles of joy. She will lovingly nurse them and care for them until they are old enough to be weaned. 

You and your family will find great joy in watching and playing with these little dolls, and then when the time is right they will all (or maybe you keep just one) go off to special homes to live out their lives as cherished companions. But have you given consideration to what if something goeswrong? I have listed here a few of the problems that I myself have personal knowledge of. Everything listed has happened either to me or someone I know. These are not isolated incidents. I'm sure other breeders could add miles to my list. Learn by others mistakes!. Let the breeding up to those who know what they are doing, have the experience, know what to expect. 

WHAT IF DURING THE BREEDING 

1. The stud dog you have chosen is carrying a venereal disease and gives it to your female. She not only doesn't conceive but you have to pay the vet bills to get her infection cleared up and she is now sterile. 
2. The stud dog you decided to breed your darling to is not experienced. Once the two dogs are joined tightly in a tie, he decides to chase the neighbors cat out of his yard. He bolts for the cat ripping his penis loose and causing your bitch to hemorrhage from within. 
3. Your modest girl decides she doesn't want the attentions of this gigolo mutt chosen for her without her consent. She snaps at him catching her tooth on his loose cheek and rips it open sending blood flying everywhere. He retaliates by sinking his teeth into her left eye. 
4. You leave your dog with the stud owner because the breeding is not going very swiftly. In fact , it's been three hours and nothing is happening. The stud owners leave the two dogs alone in the back yard. The dogs get out through a tiny hole in the fence and a truck hits your female. 
5. You pay the $250-$1000 stud fee up front figuring you will make that and more back when the pups sell. The breeder guarantees the stud service to work or you can come back again. After 2 months you discover it didn't work and now must wait another 4 months to try again. Of course it doesn't work again, so in another 4 months you take your dog to another male and risk loosing another stud fee. 
6. You get her bred. Bring her home. She bothers you so you let her out she is still in heat and still receptive to males. You hear a commotion outside there is your girl tied up with the neighborhood mutt. when she whelps there will need to be DNA tests done on the pups. 
7. You get her bred. Bring her home and let her out. (She is still in heat and receptive to other males) but you do not see the neighborhood mutt breed her. The pups are born but look odd. You call the stud owner he suggests DNA testing (At your expense). You have a litter of mutts! What do you do about the ones you have already sold? 
8. Or knowing she tied with the neighborhood mutt you decide to terminate the pregnancy and try again being more careful next time. But a few weeks later your female is very sick because you had her given a miss-mate shot creating a hormonal imbalance causing a uterine infection and now she has Pyometra and needs a complete hysterectomy. All plans of getting a litter is gone and your female's life is now in danger if she does not have the operation. 

WHAT IF DURING THE BIRTH 

1. The puppies are too large for the female. She never goes into labor, the puppies die and she becomes infected by the decaying bodies. 
2. The puppies are coming breech and they drown in their own sacks before they can be born. 
3. The first puppy is large and breech. When it starts coming your female starts screaming, and before you can stop her she reaches around, grabs the puppy in her teeth and yanks it out killing it instantly. 
4. A puppy gets stuck. Neither your female nor you can get it out. You have to race her to the vet. The vet can't get it out either. She has to have an emergency caesarian section of course it is 3:00 am Christmas day. 
5. A puppy is coming out breech and dry (the water sack that protects them has burst). It gets stuck. Mom tries to help it out by clamping her teeth over one of the back legs. The head and shoulders are firmly caught. Mom pulls on the leg, hard, peeling the flesh from the leg and leaving a wiggling stump of bone. 
6. A dead puppy gets stuck in the birth canal, but your female is well into hard labor. She contracts so hard trying to give birth that her uterus ruptures and she bleeds to death on the way to the vet. 

WHAT IF DIRECTLY AFTER THE BIRTH 

1. The mother has no idea what to do with a puppy and she drops them out and walks away, leaving them in the sack to drown. 
2. The mother takes one look at the puppies, decides they are disgusting droppings and tries to smother them in anything she can find to bury them in. 
3. The mother gets too enthusiastic in her removal of the placenta and umbilical cord, and rips the cord out leaving a gushing hole pulsing blood all over you as you try in vain to stop the bleeding. 
4. Or, she pulls on the cords so hard she disembowels the puppies as they are born and you have a box full of tiny, kicking babies with a tangle of guts the size of a walnut hanging from their stomachs. Of course all the babies must be put to sleep. 
5. What if because of some Hormone deficiency she turns vicious allowing no one near her or the babies, who she refuses to nurse, or you have to interfere with. 
6. You notice something protruding from her vagina when you let her out to pee. You take her to the vet to discover a prolapsed uterus, which needs to be removed. 

WHAT IF WHEN YOU THINK YOU'RE IN THE CLEAR 

1. One or more of the puppies inhaled fluid during birth, pneumonia develops and death occurs within 36 hours. 
2. What if the mother's milk goes bad. You lose three of your four puppies before you discover what is wrong. You end up bottle feeding the remaining pup every two hours, day and night. After three days the puppy fades from infection and dies. 
3. The puppies develop fading puppy syndrome you lose two. You bottle-feeding or tube feeding the last remaining baby. It begins to choke and despite your efforts to clear the airway, the pup stiffens and dies in your hands. 
4. Your female develops mastitis and her breast ruptures. 
5. Your female develops a uterine infection from a retained placenta. Her temperature soars to 105. You race her to the vet, he determines she must be spayed. He does the spay in an attempt to save her life, you pay the hundreds of dollars bill. The infection has gone into her blood stream. The infected milk kills all the puppies and the bitch succumbs a day later. 
6. All the puppies are fine but following the birth the female develops a hormone imbalance. She becomes a fear biter and anytime anyone tries to touch her she viciously attacks them. 
7. Mom and pups seem fine, the puppies are four weeks old and are at their cutest. However, one day one of the puppies disappears. You search everywhere but you can't find it. A few days later another puppy is gone. And another. You can't figure how on earth the puppies are getting out of their safe 4' x 4' puppy pen. Finally there is only one puppy left. The next morning you find the mother chomping contentedly on what is left of the last murdered puppy. 

WHAT IF THE NEW HOMES AREN'T SO HAPPY 

1. You give a puppy to a friend. Their fence blows down so they tie the puppy outside while they go to work. A roving dog comes along and kills the puppy. Your friend calls you up to tell you about the poor little puppy and asks when you are having more puppies. 
2. You sell a puppy to an acquaintance. The next time you see them you ask how the puppy is doing. They tell you that it soiled their new carpet so they took it to the pound 
3. You sell a puppy to a friend (you give them a good price and payments). They make a couple of tiny payments. Six months later they move to an apartment. They ask you to take it back. You take it back and of course the payments stop. The dog they returned is so shy, and ill mannered from lack of socialization and training it takes you a year of work providing socializing and training to be able to give it away. 
4. You sell a puppy to a wonderful home. They love her like one of the family. At a vet check done by their vet it is determined that the puppy has a heart murmur. (Your vet found nothing when he checked the puppy before it was sold.) They love their puppy and want the best for her. They have an expensive surgery done. The puppy is fine. They sue you for the medical costs. They win, because you did not have a contract stipulating conditions of guarantee and so as breeder you are responsible for the puppy's genetic health. 
5. You give a puppy to your mother. She is thrilled. Two years later the puppy starts developing problems. It begins to develop odd symptoms and is suffering. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of tests later it is finally discovered that the dog is suffering from a terminal condition that was inherited. possibly from your female since you know nothing about her family lines. 
6. One loving home decides your puppy is untrainable, destructive and wants to return the pup and get a full refund, which you have spent on your vet bills. 
7. One loving couple calls you and is very upset because their pup has crippling hip dysplasia and want to know what you are going to do about it. You have spayed your female so a replacement is out of the question, looks like another refund. 

THE SALE 

1. You put your ad in the local paper for your pups at the usual price and get only 2 responses and no sales. You cut the pup's price in half and broaden your advertising to 3 other newspapers in which the advertising totals $120.00 a week. 
2. You get a few more puppy inquiries from people who ask all about health testing you did before breeding and if the pups are registered. You tell them your dogs are healthy and it was enough and that you could get the papers. The callers politely thank you and hang up. 
3. The pups are now 4 months old and getting bigger , eating alot and their barking is really beginning to annoy the neighbors who call the police who inform you of the $150.00 noise by-law. 
4. Your neighbors also call the humane society who comes out to inspect the care of your dogs. You pass inspection but end up feeling stressed and harassed. 
5. You finally decide to give the rest of the litter away but still have to pay the $1200.00 advertising bill and the $600.00 vet bill.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanks for the article. Hope folks will take the time to read and really think about the points that were made. I feel very strongly about this subject.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Thanks for posting this excellent information. I like your provocative "subject line" also... should get a lot of eyes on it. 

I'm so passionate about this, as some of you know.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Thanks for this excellent post on the "nuts and bolts" reality of breeding. A must read for anyone even _thinking_ of breeding their Maltese!


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

Thats some scarey things that could happen...















I would be soo upset if something happened to my (if i had) female.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

This is good information anyone who is interested in breeding should be of aware of. I am appreciative of the breeders who have been knowledgable enough and responsible to breed the babies I have, healthy and beautiful. None of which came from a show breeder or puppy mill but rather very good hobby breeders, all of which I am very fond of. We must remember that if it wasn't for good hobby breeders, many of us would not have the dogs that we have. So many show breeders charge outrageous prices that the typical person could not afford, also many that I have talked to sounded like high class puppy mills, who did not talk about their breeders being their loving pets first and were so quickly ready to discard their "bad" breeders to me. My experience with them when looking for me and my mom's 4 dogs in the last two years has tainted my view of them forever. Obviously not everything is as horrible as stated here or dog breeding would not occur. However it is important to be very knowledgeable about the situations that could and often do arise. Also, even the most experienced and knowledgable breeders had to start somewhere, no one started out an expert. And I'm sure even the most experienced people learn new things all the time. I would like to see the good moments of having babies discussed as well, instead of only scare tactics. That would make for a more well rounded discussion. I think the best tactic to use on people who should not be breeding is to remember there is no money in it and if that is the reason you are choosing to breed, you will be sadly mistaken.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I, too, thank you for this wonderful article. Now, on another note, I would like all of you who have your wonderful Maltese to read it again and think of the breeder who strives to have quality dogs for you to purchase. I consider myself a breeder because I will soon be selling pup #7 in three years of breeding.
True, quality pups are easy to place, and we have waiting lists, but there are still many truths in that article about the time, money, and danger to our females. Now only that, but those of us who show have obtained quality dogs, finished championships, and breed very infrequently. We don't do it for the money. In fact, it cost money out of our pocket to be able to do it. Then, we are faced with people who want a pup for almost nothing, want to slander us all over the internet out of ignorance of the situation, and want full registration so that they can start "making some extra money".


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj_@Jul 14 2005, 01:17 PM
> *This is good information anyone who is interested in breeding should be of aware of. I am appreciative of the breeders who have been knowledgable enough and  responsible to breed the babies I have, healthy and beautiful. None of which came from a show breeder or puppy mill but rather very good hobby breeders, all of which I am very fond of. We must remember that if it wasn't for good hobby breeders, many of us would not have the dogs that we have. So many show breeders charge outrageous prices that the typical person could not afford, also many that I have talked to sounded like high class puppy mills, who did not talk about their breeders being their loving pets first and were so quickly ready to discard their "bad" breeders to me. My experience with them when looking for me and my mom's 4 dogs in the last two years has tainted my view of them forever. Obviously not everything is as horrible as stated here or dog breeding would not occur. However it is important to be very knowledgeable about the situations that could and often do arise. Also, even the most experienced and knowledgable breeders had to start somewhere, no one started out an expert. And I'm sure even the most experienced people learn new things all the time. I would like to see the good moments of having babies discussed as well, instead of only scare tactics. That would make for a more well rounded discussion. I think the best tactic to use on people who should not be breeding is to remember there is no money in it and if that is the reason you are choosing to breed, you will be sadly mistaken.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81352*


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I think your post was entered as I was writing mine. 
Are you a breeder? If so, maybe we can get some of the positive aspects of the situation going.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

double post


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dhodina+Jul 14 2005, 01:27 PM-->
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This is reality not a scare tatic.  Anyone who is a high risk pregnancy gets a much worse convo with their dr.  Why?  Because you need to know the what if's and your dr is covering his butt so you can't come back and say I didn't know the risks I was taking.  You seem to want the picture perfect stories to justify having one litter but this is the reality.  Having pups is messy, dirty, your dog may not make it.  The pups may not make it.  There is a high risk involved and not just in birth but in the before and after why wouldn't you want to be aware of the risks?  And this is just a few, the number of things that can and do go wrong is astronomical in any birthing, human, dog anything.  It is not uncommon to lose your bitch and/or the pups.  

Keep in mind this doesn't even mention the other health benefits of a spay.  The risks of losing your greatly increase because of your want to have puppies whatever the reason. Keep in mind this isn't aimed at those who breed to better the breed, showing, testing and matching the best possible dog with the best possible female. 

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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I completely understand what you are saying and getting across here, I did not mean to offend. This is a very touchy issue. I just didn't want all breeders lumped into byb and puppymills just because they don't show. I respect people that show their dogs, I enjoy going to shows. But I think that GOOD hobby breeders are needed. I guess I went off topic a bit here, as I reread your post, I am not talking about the people who want just one litter. I am talking about the people who make it important to pick quality dogs to breed and ensure a good start for these puppies by early socialization and training before the pup even goes to it's new home. Ensuring that the puppy will be a good pet. And making sure their breeding dogs are part of the family, happy and healthy.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj_@Jul 14 2005, 01:41 PM
> *I completely understand what you are saying and getting across here, I did not mean to offend. This is a very touchy issue. I just didn't want all breeders lumped into byb and puppymills just because they don't show. Other than my kids my whole world is about my dogs. I respect people that show their dogs, I enjoy going to shows. However I don't believe in it nor am I the type of person that could show. I think that GOOD hobby breeders are needed. I guess I went off topic a bit here, as I reread your post, I am not talking about the people who want just one litter. I am talking about the people who make it important to pick quality dogs to breed and ensure a good start for these puppies by early socialization and training before the pup even goes to it's new home. Ensuring that the puppy will be a good pet. And making sure their breeding dogs are part of the family, happy and healthy.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81375*


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I couldn't agree with you more that good hobby breeders are needed; however, I feel they should start with quality dogs. Mine has been a building program, based on having the opportunity to obtain a couple good females with no show restrictions on them, then obtaining males for show. Now, I have girls of my own who will enter the ring, or who can produce quality pups of the caliber I'm proud of. I know what you mean about some of the breeders. Fortunately, I didn't need people like that to obtain what I have. If you keep searching, you will find that there are nice people out there who love their dogs, and who will give you a start.
Not every pup, regardless of the champions in the pedigree should be bred. I think those should be placed in pet homes for a REASONABLE fee, and that is what I am trying to do. So, on one end, I guess four of those six I've placed have been what a good hobby breeder would do. 
Now, I'll throw something else in the mix: You mentioned show breeders dumping their bad breeders. A reputable one will sell these on spay/neuter. If they aren't good enough for them to breed, then they shouldn't be bred at all.
There are some who put their "bad" dogs on the newbie who wants to show. Then, they "mentor" them, when, in essence, they are using them to get points on their own dogs. I know of more than one person doing this to new people now, and I think it is disgusting. One poor girl told us of how she was told to care for her dog and get it ready for the ring. It was the exact opposite of what should have been done.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

"I couldn't agree with you more that good hobby breeders are needed; however, I feel they should start with quality dogs. "

Right on! Just like building a house, if your foundation isn't strong, it's not going to be a quality house that will last. I think that's the danger in backyard or hobby breeders, no matter how well meaning, that if the breeding stock is second or third generation puppy mill/pet shop dogs, those infamous ticking genetic time bombs will still be there.

As Chloe says, other than her kids, her whole world is her dogs. It can really rock your world when your precious furbaby is diagnosed with a serious medical condition.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

I'm not a breeder and don't know anything about breeding. What I do know is that it is a lot of hard work.

With my first puppy I did not get her spayed cuase I did not want to put her through an operation. No one ever explained to me the reasons for it, except not having puppies.

After being educated on this site and seeing the post that Cathers mom put up about the birth of puppies. I would never put Chelsey through that. I just could not do it. 

I'm not passing judgment on anyone. This is just my personal feelings for my puppies.
I'm glad that there are good breeders out there our we would not have Chester and Chelsey. 

p.s This was very informative. Thanks


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Regarding Malts purchased as pets....

As intelligent beings, it seems that if we can almost certainly prevent mammary cancer in our babies by spaying them before their first heat and before two years old for some protection, it seems to be a no-brainer to me that we, as their caretakers should do the right thing by them and have them spayed.

My first Maltese, Rosebud's, mother died of breast cancer at age 5. I am glad Rosebud was spayed or chances are she would have gotten it also.


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

Thanks for posting this information.

As you can probably guess from my postings on the subject, I also strongly support spay/neutering of all pets. The world is too full of unwanted pets--petfinder has so many wonderful Malts who have been abandoned for one reason or another. Why, just this week we have two members who have actively sought to place their Maltese in other homes.

I recognize, of course, the need for careful breeding programs, and believe that breeding should be left to those with a lifelong commitment to the bettering of the breed (and raise a few select litters, in their homes, while providing the parents and puppies with a loving family life and the highest quality of care).


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SylphidesMom_@Jul 14 2005, 03:49 PM
> *Thanks for posting this information.
> 
> As you can probably guess from my postings on the subject, I also strongly support spay/neutering of all pets.  The world is too full of unwanted pets--petfinder has so many wonderful Malts who have been abandoned for one reason or another.  Why, just this week we have two members who have actively sought to place their Maltese in other homes.
> ...


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I agree 100%


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

Some of my thoughts on what has just been posted and seriously would like your comments.

#1 In my book, all malts should be treated as pets, whether you breed them or not.

#2 People can talk about rescuing a malt, however very few are eligible to receive one or should adopt one

#3 I would like to know why many retired breeding malts and retired show dogs end up in rescue

#4 Why do we talk down about breeders, yet we don't adopt a homeless pet of a mixed breed?


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Jul 14 2005, 04:37 PM
> *Regarding Malts purchased as pets....
> 
> As intelligent beings, it seems that if we can almost certainly prevent mammary cancer in our babies by spaying them before their first heat and before two years old for some protection, it seems to be a no-brainer to me that we, as their caretakers should do the right thing by them and have them spayed.
> ...


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If the Vet I took missy to even mentioned to me about cancer i would have spayed her.
They never educated me.. only warned me about her having litters and I knew that she would be with me no matter were we went . Back then internet just started so resorces for information was low.

Even our vet now never mentioned lowering chances of cancer to us... i just know to spayed her because of information provided here.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj_@Jul 14 2005, 04:06 PM
> *Some of my thoughts on what has just been posted and seriously would like your comments.
> 
> #1 In my book, all malts should be treated as pets, whether you breed them or not.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I would like to add #5

#5. Every breeder should be responsible for giving a portion of their sales to rescue and/or working actively with rescue, including doing fosters and adoptions.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

If you were to come to my house, you would meet Joplin. She would not have seen her first birthday without heart-surgery. You would meet Henry, found wandering the streets. He needs to be scheduled for surgery on his leg (luxating patella). You would then see Billy. But he won't see you. His eyes did not fully develope. Looks like he has no eyes, he's only nine-months-old.

Of course, all breeders have to start somewhere. Start by knowing what you're doing. This may sound harsh, but I've more than earned the right to say it. Breeders who don't know what they're doing MAKE ME SICK!!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 3Maltmom_@Jul 14 2005, 07:13 PM
> *If you were to come to my house, you would meet Joplin.  She would not have seen her first birthday without heart-surgery.  You would meet Henry, found wandering the streets.  He needs to be scheduled for surgery on his leg (luxating patella).  You would then see Billy.  But he won't see you.  His eyes did not fully develope.  Looks like he has no eyes, he's only nine-months-old.
> 
> Of course, all breeders have to start somewhere.  Start by knowing what you're doing.  This may sound harsh, but I've more than earned the right to say it.  Breeders who don't know what they're doing MAKE ME SICK!!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81442*


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Hey 3Maltmom... I was thinking about you and wondering where you were! Glad to see you and think you're right-on with your post!!


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

yay for spay and neuter!


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou+Jul 14 2005, 05:55 PM-->
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I would like to add #5

#5. Every breeder should be responsible for giving a portion of their sales to rescue and/or working actively with rescue, including doing fosters and adoptions.
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That is the most wonderful idea! Do you do this?


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

I would like to add that I too had thought about letting my Frosty have just one litter. I love her as she is a wonderful, loving companion. But luckily in my quest to learn more about the wonderful breed of Maltese, I learned about all the negative things, and ultimately took Frosty in and had her spayed. I am now an advocate for spaying and neutering. But I believe that all veterinarians should strongly encourage and give more in depth info on the benefits of protecting our babies and helping all the helpless animals who have been thrown away for whatever reasoning.
Angie


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by 3Maltmom_@Jul 14 2005, 06:13 PM
> *If you were to come to my house, you would meet Joplin.  She would not have seen her first birthday without heart-surgery.  You would meet Henry, found wandering the streets.  He needs to be scheduled for surgery on his leg (luxating patella).  You would then see Billy.  But he won't see you.  His eyes did not fully develope.  Looks like he has no eyes, he's only nine-months-old.
> 
> Of course, all breeders have to start somewhere.  Start by knowing what you're doing.  This may sound harsh, but I've more than earned the right to say it.  Breeders who don't know what they're doing MAKE ME SICK!!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81442*


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Your post brings up a very good point that everyone considering breeding should think about. Breeders should test their breeding dogs and look at generations back for medical issues. That way a "ticking Time Bomb" will be prevented as much as possible. However I'm sure even champions have whelped puppies that something was wrong with them, as that is how mother nature is. 

I think it is wonderful that you have taken in those precious pups.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

I posted my opinion on spaying/neutering in other thread. I strongly believe in spaying/neutering. I would just like to hear GOOD reason why someone wouldn't neuter/spay their pets (other than for quality breeding as LucyLou mentioned). Staying natural, having one litter, etc are just not good enough reasons why you wouldn't. You are placing your pet at risk for cancer...can you live with that? I couldn't. We spend $2,500 to fix luxating patellas on our baby just to prevent future problems - there is no way I would do something that deliverately places his health at risk.

By the way, even breeding dogs are "pets". I am sure that most breeders do love their dogs just as much as non-breeders do.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by okw_@Jul 14 2005, 09:01 PM
> *By the way, even breeding dogs are "pets".  I am sure that most breeders do love their dogs just as much as non-breeders do.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81497*


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I had only meant that some people that I have encountered that were supposedly reputable by some people's definition (ie they showed their dogs), seemed nothing more than a high class puppy mill to me. These dogs were not talked about like they were loving pets, but a little more like cattle. This has been _my_ experience.

The only times I have felt like the dogs were loving pets participating in the everyday life of a household, was when I was speaking to knowledgable hobby breeders (although considered byb to some of you, I'm sure).

I am sorry if i have offended any of you by trying to have a more open discussion about this subject. I feel like I have been stifled here, so I too will just not talk about it anymore and walk on my tiptoes around this subject.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj+Jul 14 2005, 07:52 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had only meant that some people that I have encountered that were supposedly reputable by some people's definition (ie they showed their dogs), seemed nothing more than a high class puppy mill to me. These dogs were not talked about like they were loving pets, but a little more like cattle. This has been _my_ experience.

The only times I have felt like the dogs were loving pets participating in the everyday life of a household, was when I was speaking to knowledgable hobby breeders (although considered byb to some of you, I'm sure).

I am sorry if i have offended any of you by trying to have a more open discussion about this subject. I feel like the education you are trying to give people is one sided. I feel like I have been stifled here, so I too will just not talk about it anymore and walk on my tiptoes around this subject.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81509
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No one means to upset you and certainly not me. In order not to make this be one sided, can you give us good reasons for not neutering/spaying? Or breeding without showing? Or whatever you are refering to by 'one sided education'? Again, no one (NOT me) is trying to upset you. This is a friendly forum. However, it is okay to disagree and just have both sided discussion about whatever issue is brought up.


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## mee (Jul 17, 2004)

i dont understand, some ppl in SM write so strongly about their opinions of spaying/neutering, but then eventually if theres a new thread saying that somebody actually breeds, they turn 180 degrees around and encourage the breeding


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mee_@Jul 14 2005, 07:56 PM
> *i dont understand, some ppl in SM write so strongly about their opinions of spaying/neutering, but then eventually if theres a new thread saying that somebody actually breeds, they turn 180 degrees around and encourage the breeding
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81512*


[/QUOTE]


Mee,

What do mean? Are you refering to me? When did I encourage breeding? I am just not sure what you mean.


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## mee (Jul 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by okw_@Jul 14 2005, 09:58 PM
> *Mee,
> 
> What do mean?  Are you refering to me?  When did I encourage breeding?  I am just not sure what you mean.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81513*


[/QUOTE]

nope, okw, im not referring to you, u have always been consistent about spaying/neutering
















im referring to other ppl


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## lani (Sep 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by okw+Jul 14 2005, 07:58 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mee,

What do mean? Are you refering to me? When did I encourage breeding? I am just not sure what you mean.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81513
[/B][/QUOTE]

okw,

I think she mean some ppl on sm strongly believe in fixing their dogs, YET when someone do actually breed they're happy for them and start talking about the puppies etc.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mee_@Jul 14 2005, 09:56 PM
> *i dont understand, some ppl in SM write so strongly about their opinions of spaying/neutering, but then eventually if theres a new thread saying that somebody actually breeds, they turn 180 degrees around and encourage the breeding
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81512*


[/QUOTE]


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj+Jul 14 2005, 09:52 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had only meant that some people that I have encountered that were supposedly reputable by some people's definition (ie they showed their dogs), seemed nothing more than a high class puppy mill to me. These dogs were not talked about like they were loving pets, but a little more like cattle. This has been _my_ experience.

The only times I have felt like the dogs were loving pets participating in the everyday life of a household, was when I was speaking to knowledgable hobby breeders (although considered byb to some of you, I'm sure).

I am sorry if i have offended any of you by trying to have a more open discussion about this subject. I feel like the education you are trying to give people is one sided. I feel like I have been stifled here, so I too will just not talk about it anymore and walk on my tiptoes around this subject.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81509
[/B][/QUOTE]


Ok in the interest of being fair and not one sided, Chloe please tell me 5 differences between a "good hobby breeder" and a byb? Or better yet give me the points that make a "good hobby breeder".


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)




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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I would like to add #5

#5. Every breeder should be responsible for giving a portion of their sales to rescue and/or working actively with rescue, including doing fosters and adoptions.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81439
[/QUOTE]

That is the most wonderful idea! Do you do this?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81476
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do. I sit on the board of a no-kill shelter, I make donations to them in money and time, and I foster, adopt, and do transports for dogs going to their forever home. If you were to come to my house, you would be surprised as I have a variety of lost soles right now. I have a nine year old almost blind poodle from a puppymill; a crippled nine year old Yorkie with stomach problems who came from a backyard breeder who had her tied in the yard; two Labs from kill shelters, one of which has behavior problems and separation anxiety, and a Golden Retriever/Irish Setter mix who runs around barking at the birds who fly over. She came to me from a shelter pregnant, and I whelped her litter, then took the pups back to the shelter, and when her milk dried up, had the mom spayed and kept her.
Again, I think if you bring dogs into the world by being a breeder, then you should take responsibility for some of those who do not have a home.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I had only meant that some people that I have encountered that were supposedly reputable by some people's definition (ie they showed their dogs), seemed nothing more than a high class puppy mill to me. These dogs were not talked about like they were loving pets, but a little more like cattle. This has been _my_ experience.

The only times I have felt like the dogs were loving pets participating in the everyday life of a household, was when I was speaking to knowledgable hobby breeders (although considered byb to some of you, I'm sure).

I am sorry if i have offended any of you by trying to have a more open discussion about this subject. I feel like the education you are trying to give people is one sided. I feel like I have been stifled here, so I too will just not talk about it anymore and walk on my tiptoes around this subject.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81509
[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't feel that way. If you are breeding, and you have sound, quality dogs, then, please tell us about them. As I said earlier, there is a real need for people who produce good quality pets at reasonable prices. Not everyone can afford a dog at show dog prices, yet they deserve better than one from a puppymill.


I couldn't agree more with you about some people who show and do some of the same things that the puppymillers do. They have far too many dogs, keep them in crates for most of the day, have more than one location for a disguise to sell their dogs from thier home, and don't make them a part of the family. I know of one show breeder who has at least 75 dogs (two breeds) housed in an exclusive neighborhood in a separate "guest house" on her property. She has enough to keep full time help cleaning up after them. They live in crates. I know another handler who had nine litters for sale last Christmas. While she can get in the ring and pretend to be on the up and up, she also sells mix breeds, and she is known to take pups to the mall to sell in the parking lot. Just because someone is a person who shows their dogs doesn't mean they love them or practice ethical breeding. 
To me, a hobby breeder is someone who breeds for the betterment of the breed, and shows their dogs in competition to prove the quality. Not every dog that is bred in a kennel is a champion, but it is one that has the potential to produce champions. My China produced three pups last year, all good show prospects, yet she is not a champion. The sire was, and I had China evaluated for faults and health, and I knew her ancestors.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

[/QUOTE]


Ok in the interest of being fair and not one sided, Chloe please tell me 5 differences between a "good hobby breeder" and a byb? Or better yet give me the points that make a "good hobby breeder".
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81527
[/QUOTE]

I don't think I am understanding what a byb is to you. Is any breeder who does not show, a byb? To me a hobby breeder is different than a byb. To me a byb is mostly a puppymill but on smaller scale. A hobby breeder to me is responsible and educated.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I use the term hobby breeder for people who show because a hobby is something one does for fun that usually cost money









To me, a byb is one who puts two dogs together to mate just to get pups. There is no testing, no concern for quality, and no plan other than to make money off the offspring.

There is another level of breeder, and one that is greatly needed. While it would be good if they were involved with showing, not all good breeders are. And, on the same token, not every person who shows is a good breeder. But anyone who breeds should start out with quality dogs who, when bred will produce healthy offspring that are a good representation of breed standard. They do health testing, and if a breeding produces pups that are not of good quality, then they do not repeat the breeding. 
This is just my opinion, and I'm always willing to learn from others who have a difference of opinion from me.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't feel that way. If you are breeding, and you have sound, quality dogs, then, please tell us about them. As I said earlier, there is a real need for people who produce good quality pets at reasonable prices. Not everyone can afford a dog at show dog prices, yet they deserve better than one from a puppymill.


I couldn't agree more with you about some people who show and do some of the same things that the puppymillers do. They have far too many dogs, keep them in crates for most of the day, have more than one location for a disguise to sell their dogs from thier home, and don't make them a part of the family. I know of one show breeder who has at least 75 dogs (two breeds) housed in an exclusive neighborhood in a separate "guest house" on her property. She has enough to keep full time help cleaning up after them. They live in crates. I know another handler who had nine litters for sale last Christmas. While she can get in the ring and pretend to be on the up and up, she also sells mix breeds, and she is known to take pups to the mall to sell in the parking lot. Just because someone is a person who shows their dogs doesn't mean they love them or practice ethical breeding. 
To me, a hobby breeder is someone who breeds for the betterment of the breed, and shows their dogs in competition to prove the quality. Not every dog that is bred in a kennel is a champion, but it is one that has the potential to produce champions. My China produced three pups last year, all good show prospects, yet she is not a champion. The sire was, and I had China evaluated for faults and health, and I knew her ancestors.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81556
[/QUOTE]


Thank you for posting this, I thought I was the only one who had heard of such terrible things. 

Just because an individual does not show dogs, does not make them a bad breeder. Just because a person shows their dogs doesn't make them a good breeder. I would be interested to know how many people here have actually bought from a show breeder. Has anyone ever taken a poll to see?


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Just because an individual does not show dogs, does not make them a bad breeder. Just because a person shows their dogs doesn't make them a good breeder. I would be interested to know how many people here have actually bought from a show breeder. Has anyone ever taken a poll to see?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81564
[/QUOTE]

I've purchased more than one dog from show breeders. I've been very happy with them. But, it was from breeders I knew and had great respect for. I'm fortunate to have a great mentor with the highest ethical standard in care and breeding of her dogs. She is always there willing to teach me.


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## mee (Jul 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Jul 15 2005, 12:32 AM
> *I would be interested to know how many people here have actually bought from a show breeder. Has anyone ever taken a poll to see?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81564*


[/QUOTE]

yes, we had a poll a few months ago


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Lani+Jul 14 2005, 10:04 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*[/QUOTE]

okw,

I think she mean some ppl on sm strongly believe in fixing their dogs, YET when someone do actually breed they're happy for them and start talking about the puppies etc.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81516
[/B][/QUOTE]

Why is there something wrong with talking positively about beautiful little puppies? 
Even though you think the mother should not have had them. 

Those babies did not ask to come into the world. Now that they are here, why not celebrate what they are...Little gifts...That's what kind and caring people do.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

Those babies did not ask to come into the world. Now that they are here, why not celebrate what they are...Little gifts...That's what kind and caring people do.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81569
[/QUOTE]


And while we are at it lets celebrate the pain and suffering the ones who didn't make it went thru. Or better yet lets celebrate crack babies, encourage their mother with attention that she did the right thing, knowing that these kids will have a extremely hard, painful life and may not make it. Since the puppymillers are breeding their dogs lets celibrate those pups too, because they are here now, forget the heck they are going to have to go thru. Quit trying to justify breeding your dogs. If your going to do then do it you are grown adults, but don't make yourself out be a responsible breeder. You are a byb, hobbybreeder same thing IMO and whoever breeds their pet quality, hobbybreeder, pet store dog is wrong, and there is no justification to be found.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

> Those babies did not ask to come into the world. Now that they are here, why not celebrate what they are...Little gifts...That's what kind and caring people do.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81569



And while we are at it lets celebrate the pain and suffering the ones who didn't make it went thru. Or better yet lets celebrate crack babies, encourage their mother with attention that she did the right thing, knowing that these kids will have a extremely hard, painful life and may not make it. Since the puppymillers are breeding their dogs lets celibrate those pups too, because they are here now, forget the heck they are going to have to go thru. Quit trying to justify breeding your dogs. If your going to do then do it you are grown adults, but don't make yourself out be a responsible breeder. You are a byb, hobbybreeder same thing IMO and whoever breeds their pet quality, hobbybreeder, pet store dog is wrong, and there is no justification to be found.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81574
[/QUOTE]


Weren't you the one who bought a pet store puppy? When I read that, I thought you were so caring. So I don't understand this statement that you just wrote.

Anyway this is getting a bit extreme for me. I think I will close my mind now too.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> > Those babies did not ask to come into the world. Now that they are here, why not celebrate what they are...Little gifts...That's what kind and caring people do.
> > <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81569
> 
> 
> ...



Weren't you the one who bought a pet store puppy? When I read that, I thought you were so caring. So I don't understand this statement that you just wrote.

Anyway this is getting a bit extreme for me. I think I will close my mind now too.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81577
[/QUOTE]

Yep I did and she will be spayed now in a wonderful home loving fully health tested. Safe from those buying her to breed because she has a uterous and can be bred. But we are not debating puppymills. But those who buy petstore or hobbybreeder pups and breed them so stop trying to attack me and and focus on the issue being discussed. Don't be upset because I don't agree with your views, I think you are a byb you think I am cold. Ok but take a walk down to your humane societys back room freezer then call me uncaring. See how many purebred "hobby breeder" dogs are put down. So put your rose colored glasses on and go breed your bitch and hope they all make it, you don't kill her, and the puppies live perfect wonderful lives. But all you can do is hope.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

-_-


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## lani (Sep 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj_@Jul 15 2005, 12:00 AM
> *Is this the same thing you would tell someone who has a champion dog? Or are only pet quality dogs important to you?
> "So put your rose colored glasses on and go breed your bitch and hope they all make it, you don't kill her, and the puppies live perfect wonderful lives. But all you can do is hope."
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81582*


[/QUOTE]

dhodina wasnt talking about champion dogs..she was talking about puppymill/petstore dogs being bred.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I think possibly the terms "backyard breeder" and "hobby breeder" are confusing this issue as we all don't define them in the same way.

Maybe using the terms "responsible" and "irresponsible" about breeders clarifies it a bit?


"A Responsible breeder will... 

Insist the dogs being bred are good breed representatives in body and mind and have proven it by competing is various competitions. 

They breed first for their own needs. Puppies not meeting the breeder's desires will be carefully placed in pet or performance homes with a spay/neuter agreement. 

They will test for hereditary issues as well as Brucellosis (which can be devastating). 

They will require the same standards of dogs they breed to. 

They will research pedigrees to try and improve upon their own dogs as well as add to the breed as a whole. Responsible breeders have a goal they breed towards, they do not breed just to see what will be produced. 

Has a working knowledge of the genetics behind the dogs (colors, health issues, etc.) 

They accept the financial risk and rarely make money off of litters when all the expenses from tests (some must be done annually), feeding, medical care, etc. are tallied up. Responsible breeding does not equal money. 

They accept the emotional risk: which include the possible death of a puppy, puppies and/or the mother. 

They accept long term responsibility. If for any reason at any time, a buyer cannot keep the dog bought, the breeder will want it back - even if the dog is twelve years old! 

If at any time a hereditary issue that was previously unknown to the breed shows up, the breeder will inform all puppy buyers as well as alter the breeding program to prevent the issue from being passed on to any other dogs. 

Makes sure all puppies go to carefully screened homes. If there is no home out there, the puppy is kept until one is found. NO puppy ever goes to a pet store or animal shelter. Responsible breeders do not add to the thousands of unwanted pets that are in shelters."



Wow, this is a lot that a good breeder will do!!! 

Now what about a bad breeder? 

Again, let's go back to Will O'Wisp for this:



"What an Irresponsible breeder does... 

Breeds just for the sake of having a litter. Overall quality of the dogs is secondary. The owner may not even know what a proper breed specimen should look or act like. 

Breeds so the kids can witness the miracle of birth. They forget that the children can also witness the miracle of death. What of the mom has trouble? Complications that make an already uncomfortable situation very painful or requiring medical intervention? Do you want you kids to see this? 

Breeds just because the have a registered purebred - regardless of whether or not the dog is a good representative. 

Does not realize the importance of a pedigree. 

Breeds because people have commented "I'd like a dog like that." More often than not, when the puppies are born, these people no longer want one. 

Does not look into the health and background of the dogs to be bred. 

Does not prove the dogs deserve to be bred. 

Will not take long term responsibility. Once the puppies are paid for, they feel the responsibility is out of their hands. 

Takes shortcuts and does not provide proper pre and post natal care. 

Does not screen homes and will place puppies through newspaper ads, sell to pet shops or dump at shelters if the work gets too much. 

Does not temperament test puppies or do any medical care on them (like puppy boosters at 6 weeks)."


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Well, here we go again with people making assumptions and attacks. In this case, we have one poster calling another poster a backyard breeder. BUT, the person being attacked does not breed, and never has. Also, there is no information in all that poster's file to suggest that the dog they own is of inferior or came from a pet store or puppymill. Here again, just assumptions one the part of the one making the attacks. This is pathetic. I think an apology is in order.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> I recognize, of course, the need for careful breeding programs, and believe that breeding should be left to those with a lifelong commitment to the bettering of the breed (and raise a few select litters, in their homes, while providing the parents and puppies with a loving family life and the highest quality of care).
> 
> 
> > Ok I agree with this to a point, but how do you define the difference when there is the hobby breeder who carefully selects the line for her well bred female and breeds her maybe once and this is done in a loving home with all the proper care and veterinary assistance. Do you call this person a BYB?
> ...


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I guess I should be known as a "couch" breeder as that is where a couple of my litters were conceived


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Jul 15 2005, 10:02 AM
> *I guess I should be known as a "couch" breeder as that is where a couple of my litters were conceived
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Or, maybe a "baggie breeder" as Julia and Lucy were inseminated by using a baggie and a syringe, and they were standing on the grooming table for the procedure.


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Jul 15 2005, 09:56 AM
> *Well, here we go again with people making assumptions and attacks.  In this case, we have one poster calling another poster a backyard breeder.  BUT, the person being attacked does not breed, and never has.  Also, there is no information in all that poster's file to suggest that the dog they own is of inferior or came from a pet store or puppymill.  Here again, just assumptions one the part of the one making the attacks.  This is pathetic.  I think an apology is in order.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81635*


[/QUOTE]
I agree,I think its very sad and doesnt "sit" well with me when personal attacks begin on here.I would like to think that we are way better ppl., able to disscuss a topic without personal attacks on one another.


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## paris (Apr 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Jul 15 2005, 09:56 AM
> *  This is pathetic.  I think an apology is in order.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81635*


[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you more...and why is it always the same one?


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## Karen542 (May 4, 2005)

Wow, thats some good information. I had Peechie spayed right away not even a thought of breeding her.

Peechie's Mom - Karen


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mee_@Jul 14 2005, 10:56 PM
> *i dont understand, some ppl in SM write so strongly about their opinions of spaying/neutering, but then eventually if theres a new thread saying that somebody actually breeds, they turn 180 degrees around and encourage the breeding
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81512*


[/QUOTE]
Mee, I think some people, such as myself, just don't see the world in absolutes of black and white but rather look at individual situations when forming an opinion.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by 3Maltmom_@Jul 14 2005, 07:13 PM
> *If you were to come to my house, you would meet Joplin.  She would not have seen her first birthday without heart-surgery.  You would meet Henry, found wandering the streets.  He needs to be scheduled for surgery on his leg (luxating patella).  You would then see Billy.  But he won't see you.  His eyes did not fully develope.  Looks like he has no eyes, he's only nine-months-old.
> 
> Of course, all breeders have to start somewhere.  Start by knowing what you're doing.  This may sound harsh, but I've more than earned the right to say it.  Breeders who don't know what they're doing MAKE ME SICK!!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81442*


[/QUOTE]

Hiya 3Maltmom, I too am happy to see you, and bless you for giving those little angels a loving home. They are so very fortunate to have you for their mom


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyMontava_@Jul 14 2005, 07:47 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Oh I could think of a few people I know who should read that poster


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 3Maltmom_@Jul 14 2005, 06:13 PM
> *If you were to come to my house, you would meet Joplin.  She would not have seen her first birthday without heart-surgery.  You would meet Henry, found wandering the streets.  He needs to be scheduled for surgery on his leg (luxating patella).  You would then see Billy.  But he won't see you.  His eyes did not fully develope.  Looks like he has no eyes, he's only nine-months-old.
> 
> Of course, all breeders have to start somewhere.  Start by knowing what you're doing.  This may sound harsh, but I've more than earned the right to say it.  Breeders who don't know what they're doing MAKE ME SICK!!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81442*


[/QUOTE]

This just might be one of the best statements in this thread.

Add my Lady to this group, tied to a tree with no food or water for 3 days, abandoned by her first owner. Her "crime"? She started having seizures.

Call them backyard breeders, hobby breeders, anything you like, but anyone who assumes the awesome responsibilty of bringing even one of these precious white babies into the world must begin with assuming complete and total responsibilty for that life, including financial responsibilty, for as long as that dog is on this earth. 

If you can't make that commitment, then you shouldn't breed your dog IMO.


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

> > I recognize, of course, the need for careful breeding programs, and believe that breeding should be left to those with a lifelong commitment to the bettering of the breed (and raise a few select litters, in their homes, while providing the parents and puppies with a loving family life and the highest quality of care).
> >
> >
> > > Ok I agree with this to a point, but how do you define the difference when there is the hobby breeder who carefully selects the line for her well bred female and breeds her maybe once and this is done in a loving home with all the proper care and veterinary assistance. Do you call this person a BYB?
> > ...


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by paris+Jul 15 2005, 10:17 AM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more...and why is it always the same one?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81643
[/B][/QUOTE]


Because it is fun to see yall up in arms over an internet site? Why take me seriously, I sure didn't take yall seriously when you attacked me for buying a pet shop puppy. But why not get a backbone and quit implying who you are speaking about and just call them out.


Oh and Chloe tell them why you females aren't spayed when is litter planned? Your mom's dogs aren't nuetered either are they? And what do you know she has a male. Tell me I am wrong and you will not breed your females. 

And my point that you completely missed don't look at the two dogs you adopted that made it look at the millions that didn't.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

Oh I am sure everyone has come to an educated conclusion. My decisions are not up for discussion. That's why I didn't discuss my business with you. Why should a handful of people take over a site and absolutely abolish any talk on the matter. What I was trying to do is be able to talk about both sides without bashing. It was not able to happen. I won't try again.

And for the record, I do respect your opinion on this matter.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by scrappy+Jul 15 2005, 12:22 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This just might be one of the best statements in this thread.

Add my Lady to this group, tied to a tree with no food or water for 3 days, abandoned by her first owner. Her "crime"? She started having seizures.

Call them backyard breeders, hobby breeders, anything you like, but anyone who assumes the awesome responsibilty of bringing even one of these precious white babies into the world must begin with assuming complete and total responsibilty for that life, including financial responsibilty, for as long as that dog is on this earth. 

If you can't make that commitment, then you shouldn't breed your dog IMO.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81665
[/B][/QUOTE]

You are both SO right.









Responsible ownership includes the health and welfare of your pet for the duration of its life.

Anyone who has seen puppymills and the poor condition of the animals would never ever consider breeding a pet purchased thru a puppymill outlet ie Pet Shop no matter how cute, loving etc their pet is. If you do you run a much higher risk of breeding a dog with some of the problems noted above. Why take that risk. Sorry I dont mean to offend anyone but I am passionate about this topic and believe all pets should be neutered/spayed for all the reasons mentioned and for the health of the animal. None neutered/spayed pets run a much higher risk of cancer than a spayed/neutered pet. Why risk it if you love your pet. JMO of course.

Well said Bren, I brought Scooby from a so called good hobby breeder and he has a pedigree etc and is registered with AKC for what that is worth, and he is healthy and a very well adjusted and extremely friendly little guy. I too had him neutered at the age of six months because we adore him and want him to be with us for a very long time. I for one am very happy to leave the breeding to those who are able to do so. 
I can say this though, some breeders are not always what they seem and are very good at hiding the truth about what they are really all about. The breeder we purchased Scooby from had only one female with her at the time we went to see her in the first instance and she was very particular about where her puppies went. I saw no other dogs, nor did I hear any other dogs. Well we found out later that she is no better than any of the other so called BYB, but we found out by accident. This person was very good at hiding what she was actually doing, but she had a number of other dogs located with other people around the place. We decided it was a nice time to take Scooby over to her and show her how lovely he had turned out and as we were in her area we just popped in quickly and guess what? She had 5 other dogs in her yard, all hers and all breeding dogs. You can imagine my shock because we checked her out very well before actually taking Scooby and all seemed above board and honest. She has a nice little girl there and she intends to breed her, and she is deaf. I told her she will never see us again. I thank my lucky stars that Scooby is of good sound health and it hasn't made me love him less but it has made me distrust this person forever.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dhodina_@Jul 15 2005, 12:33 PM
> *But why not get a backbone and quit implying who you are speaking about and just call them out.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81671*


[/QUOTE]

It is not a matter of "backbone". It is a matter of politeness, diplomacy, civility, and respect for people.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

Why cant we have a discussion about a topic such as this one with everyone respectfully expressing their own feelings. It always turns MEAN!































here is an example what maybe we should add to the begining of our posts when commenting on a sensitive subject... "I respect your opinion but I do not agree. Here is how I feel..."


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> > But why not get a backbone and quit implying who you are speaking about and just call them out.
> > <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81671
> 
> 
> ...


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

Looks like someone peed in her raisin bran again.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I just sprayed my diet pepsi all over my computer screen on that last comment.


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## elliesmomie (Apr 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kodie_@Jul 15 2005, 10:17 AM
> *Why cant we have a discussion about a topic such as this one with everyone respectfully expressing their own feelings.  It always turns MEAN!
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


i completely agree. 

IMO,

isn't the main focus of this site how to care for our babies best. we should be supporting one another and sharing information about our babies rather than making personal attacks.

i myself, thought about breeding my pup when i first got her. i had no idea what went into the process of breeding and raising pups, and after reading all the info on this site, i came to the conclusion that i am in no way shape or form qualified to care for newborn pups or my female the way that they would need. i got l.e. spayed at 5 1/2 months and don't regret it at all. i have had many people ask me to breed her and sure i would have loved to have my second pup being one of l.e.'s, but i had to make the decision on my own. 

i think that it's unfortunate that many dogs are bred and that the puppies are poorly treated as well as the mom, but i think we do a pretty good job of weeding those type of breeders out of this site. i honestly feel that most of the people who are on this site and breed are well educated and obviously care about the females, males, and pups involved enough to devote so much time to this site.

just my two cents worth...


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## paris (Apr 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mimi2_@Jul 15 2005, 12:41 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

<span style="font-family:Optima">*I will never eat Raisin Bran ever again.*</span>


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## AJ (Jun 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mimi2_@Jul 15 2005, 12:41 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]






















-Never eating Raisin Bran!! 








=Breakfast for "certain" people!!


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

Guess I am not the only one with bad manners?


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

-_-


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dhodina_@Jul 15 2005, 04:04 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


You think that's bad manners? No, no, no, bad manners would be me telling you what I really think of your nasty and ranting posts, but I have good manners so I won't.


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## AJ (Jun 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mimi2+Jul 15 2005, 05:52 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You think that's bad manners? No, no, no, bad manners would be me telling you what I really think of your nasty and ranting posts, but I have good manners so I won't.








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81796
[/B][/QUOTE]
You go girl!!


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> And my point that you completely missed don't look at the two dogs you adopted that made it look at the millions that didn't.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81671


I had just one more thought that is pulling at my mind today.

How can someone who has 2 purebred dogs that cost thousands each preach to me to walk down to my local shelter? 

In my book you do not have the right to talk about that unless you are actively involved in helping. Yes, I do have 2 large pure bred dogs from the pound. But that is not all that I do. Every month I donate a hefty amount of time and materials to make and donate belly bands to people on fixed incomes who have it in their heart to take in these untrained or incontinent older dogs to foster. That may not be a big deal to you, but believe me, the positive reaction I get for this, is hefty. I am at my max of dogs, kids and work. I do what i can do financially without putting myself in the red. Do you? If you do, great! If not, don't preach to me to take a walk. As it is one thing to talk about those poor dogs and all the ones that get put to sleep and another to actually help in a beneficial way, if only a little bit.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81786
[/QUOTE]

My purebred dogs are retirees not puppies. Gotten as adults. And I am active in pitbull rescue have been for years, I foster, work the booths, do home checks as well as many other things. Never have and never will spend thousands for a dog when there are so many needing homes.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by AJ+Jul 15 2005, 05:53 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*[/QUOTE]
You go girl!!








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81798
[/B][/QUOTE]


LoL that was cute. I was almost offended. Maybe next time you will succeed in the reaction you are looking for.


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dhodina+Jul 15 2005, 06:18 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LoL that was cute. I was almost offended. Maybe next time you will succeed in the reaction you are looking for.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81831
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh no, no, you’ve got it all wrong; I’m just trying to teach you a lesson in civility with a little bit of humor! If I were trying to get a “reaction” out of you I would have to act like you – no thanks.


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## lani (Sep 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mimi2_@Jul 15 2005, 10:41 AM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

why can't you just talk about the thread. why are you starting this???


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SylphidesMom_@Jul 15 2005, 12:09 PM
> *I think people have a tendency to confuse the terms hobby breeder and back yard breeder on this board.
> 
> Clarifying Semantics:
> ...


[/QUOTE]

It seems to me, specifically regarding Malts, that the BYB's send their babies home at 8 weeks or sooner and Hobby Breeders wait until the preferred 12 weeks. Seems like the 8-week "thing" is a dead giveaway to a BYB.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

It seems to me, specifically regarding Malts, that the BYB's send their babies home at 8 weeks or sooner and Hobby Breeders wait until the preferred 12 weeks. Seems like the 8-week "thing" is a dead giveaway to a BYB.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81912
[/QUOTE]


Yep that sounds about right K/C ship em out before they start to cost money or there is no profit to be made, right???


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scoobydoo+Jul 16 2005, 03:35 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep that sounds about right K/C ship em out before they start to cost money or there is no profit to be made, right???
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81944
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, absolutely.... I do think some BYB let theirs go early to save on expenses. Others I think just do not have a clue about this. That is part of the "knowledge thing" mentioned in the definitions in earlier posts in this thread ... they sometimes just do not have comprehensive knowledge about the breed.


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## sassy14830 (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mee+Jul 15 2005, 12:34 AM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, we had a poll a few months ago
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81568
[/B][/QUOTE]
I was just wondering if anyone could give me more info on this poll taken. I was very courious of the results. I have been searching for it forever. Any clues would be helpful thanks.

Sarah


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I searched for this as well and couldn't find it.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mimi2_@Jul 15 2005, 10:41 AM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I am sort of late and this thread is way too long...but there is really no need for these types of comments. Aren't we all adults here?


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by sassy14830+Jul 16 2005, 02:56 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*[/QUOTE]
I was just wondering if anyone could give me more info on this poll taken. I was very courious of the results. I have been searching for it forever. Any clues would be helpful thanks.

Sarah
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81957
[/B][/QUOTE]

I think I remember that thread. There are definitely more than a few people who bought their dogs from great breeders. Unfortunately, I think many of us found this forum AFTER we already bought our babies - so we didn't know better.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mimi2_@Jul 15 2005, 12:41 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I know it wasn't a very nice comment, but it did seem to lighten the mood of this thread. 

And the picture _was _funny...


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by okw+Jul 16 2005, 05:34 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I remember that thread. There are definitely more than a few people who bought their dogs from great breeders. Unfortunately, I think many of us found this forum AFTER we already bought our babies - so we didn't know better.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81967
[/B][/QUOTE]

I was trying to get at, that the dogs everyone is insisting you should buy, are hard to come by, nor affordable. Hence, the need for quality hobby breeders. If there were only show breeders, only a very few rich people would own one. So even if people did know better, would they be able to purchase from that good showbreeder who has very few litters, checks the health of their breeders and pups and ensures socialization to make good companion pets? Only very few.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj+Jul 16 2005, 04:08 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

I think I remember that thread. There are definitely more than a few people who bought their dogs from great breeders. Unfortunately, I think many of us found this forum AFTER we already bought our babies - so we didn't know better.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81967
*[/QUOTE]

I was trying to get at, that the dogs everyone is insisting you should buy, are hard to come by, nor affordable. Hence, the need for quality hobby breeders. If there were only show breeders, only a very few rich people would own one. So even if people did know better, would they be able to purchase from that good showbreeder who has very few litters, checks the health of their breeders and pups and ensures socialization to make good companion pets? Only very few.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81976
[/B][/QUOTE]

I am a bit confused about something - are you a breeder? Is that why your girls aren't spayed? I am just curious.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj+Jul 16 2005, 06:08 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

I think I remember that thread. There are definitely more than a few people who bought their dogs from great breeders. Unfortunately, I think many of us found this forum AFTER we already bought our babies - so we didn't know better.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81967
*[/QUOTE]

I was trying to get at, that the dogs everyone is insisting you should buy, are hard to come by, nor affordable. Hence, the need for quality hobby breeders. If there were only show breeders, only a very few rich people would own one. So even if people did know better, would they be able to purchase from that good showbreeder who has very few litters, checks the health of their breeders and pups and ensures socialization to make good companion pets? Only very few.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81976
[/B][/QUOTE]

My question is where are the hobby breeders getting their quality dogs since most dogs that are from good lines and known backgrounds are sold on a spay nueter contract. It isn't about the way they are raising them but the quality of dogs you have. Even if your dog from a petstore is fine, that doesn't mean she/he doesn't carry the resesive (sp) gene for many illnesses and genetic issues that will come out when bred to another dog with that resesive gene. Did you ask your hobby breeder where her dogs/lines originated from? I would be willing to bet that a high percentage can be traced back to a mill.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

Dhodina, I see what you are saying. 

It seems like I remember someone here who has a champion dog with many health issues. There are good and bad breeders under all circumstances I guess.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins+Jul 16 2005, 06:34 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> _Originally posted by okw+Jul 16 2005, 05:29 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sort of late and this thread is way too long...but there is really no need for these types of comments. Aren't we all adults here?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81963
[/B][/QUOTE]


Thanks okw, I was just about to bring this up myself. I do not think there is any need for all these comments either. If nothing nice to say, then dont say it, or use PM
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81966
[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, could you please tell me what was wrong with me seeing the funny side of someone elses post. For heaven's sake if someone didn't choose to laugh here it could have become another nasty string, that always seems to occur when certain people tend to voice their opinions in their usual argumentative manner. I felt it was far better to laugh than to continue bickering at one another.
Thankyou for pointing out that fun is now not allowed in this site either, Just like MO.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

True it can happen to anyone but the chances are enormously increased with unknown backgrounds and mill dogs. Why take that chance? If you are aiming to produce quality then why breed knowing that there is a high chance for health and genetic problems? As far as the cost being to high, why not a rescue or retiree if they are out of your range? There are tons of dogs needing homes it is hard for me to see any justification for breeding just for your 'hobby'. Hobby breeders aren't trying to better the breed and improve the health of lines, they like you said are breeding great pets, so to me why not go for the retiree or rescue or shelter dog and save his life. Instead of indulging your need to have puppies as your hobby, why not make your hobby helping out at the shelter, or working with rescue? Maybe hobby breeders aren't breeding for money like byb's but they are still breeding for their own selfishness, not for the benefit of the breed they love.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I appreciate and understand your opinion, and the manner in which you gave it.


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## sassy14830 (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dhodina+Jul 16 2005, 06:50 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My question is where are the hobby breeders getting their quality dogs since most dogs that are from good lines and known backgrounds are sold on a spay nueter contract. It isn't about the way they are raising them but the quality of dogs you have. Even if your dog from a petstore is fine, that doesn't mean she/he doesn't carry the resesive (sp) gene for many illnesses and genetic issues that will come out when bred to another dog with that resesive gene. Did you ask your hobby breeder where her dogs/lines originated from? I would be willing to bet that a high percentage can be traced back to a mill.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=81983
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have totally stayed out of this however I think you bring up a great point. I personaly would like to when I get older have about 5 or 6 show quality females and 1 or 2 males and make my own contribution to bettering the Breed. I work for a large scale Famous Maltese Breeder/Handler and although all of the animals are cared for wonderfuly I would never wish to Breed and show to this extent. I'm hoping to get one female at a time and finish them. It is very hard for me to find a breeder that wants to sell me their show quality pups to show. That is there name out there and they dont want you coming in the ring with tearstains and ratty hair. This is why Show Breeders are so protective with there stock. I dont believe most show breeders would sell a pet quality pup with out limited papers. This is a good question as to where the Hobby breeders get their stock.

There is another good point that I believe was stated by lucylou(not sure). As I walk through the kennels where I work I see Preganant females that have no champion in their name. These same felmales have produced well over 70% champions. Just because a dog doesnt finish doesnt mean they are not great producers. 

This is just MO. I'm for good breeders and against bad breeders.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by scrappy_@Jul 16 2005, 09:13 PM
> *Thank you for replying to Scoobydoo she is close to leaving the forum which would be a sad thing as I encouraged her to join because of her humor and good heart and now I feel bad
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Scoobydoo... you are a breath of fresh air on this forum. Please do not leave!!!!


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## sassy14830 (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Jul 16 2005, 08:29 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Scoobydoo... you are a breath of fresh air on this forum. Please do not leave!!!!








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=82011
[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree I just think Scooby is a hoot. He makes me smile everytime I see your post you have such a cute baby.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

-_-


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

When I came to SM, I was hoping to be on a better board than needing to be monitored, so that the negative things needed to be monitored out. EVERYONE is allowed to have their opinions, some can be changed, some cannot. Information is extremenly helpful. Like I said, I purchased my Frosty from a PET STORE. Was it a wise choice? Probably not. Was it a smart choice? Probably not. Did I get ripped off? IMO, not at all. I saved my Frosty from being picked up by someone who would not have kept her after discovering that she initially had kennel cough and an eye infection. I have loved Frosty, and snuggled with Frosty, even though at times I could scream because she is still not house trained (which in my opinion has alot to do with her being from a pet store to begin with). Frosty is still and ALWAYS will be one of my babies. I believe that everything is the way it is supposed to be. Does that mean I agree in kill shelters? No way! Doe that mean I agree that nothing should be done with BYB? I absolutely believe that BYB should be thrown under the jails. But are there not always going to be unpleasant things going on in this world? 
I am glad that I can and do express my opinions, I am also glad everyone else does as well. There are many benefits for spaying/neutering. There are few (IMO) reasons for not doing so. But it is each to their own. I am not on a crusade to change everyone's mind. I don't have the time...but I am grateful that I can share, learn, feel, love, and loathe things with some people who all share the love of this wonderful breed of animal that is named Maltese. I think they should have been named clouds from heaven, the same as I believe my human children should be gifts from heaven (even when I am ready to beat my head against the wall because I am hearing the same question for the 1000th time from the 3rd child because the older two tried and didn't get things their way...)
Thanks everyone for the information, and their opinions! The world would be pretty boring if it weren't for the differences wouldn't it?
Angie


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

LOL look at me yall have labeled me how many times? A pet store buying rasin bran w/ urine eating racist. Hmmmm and come to think of it I have never insulted someone as a person, just disagreed with their actions. By the way it makes me laugh as well as shows to me that they have nothing valid to say about the subject so they call names kinda juvenille to me but hey if it enterains them, have fun. IMO the key to this board is to realize at the end of the day it is just a website. And no ones opinion of you here really matters in your day to day life, why take it to that level? We are all adults and the only person we answer to is ourself, in the end like Chloe said her desion is already made, she will breed her dog. Do have to agree or like her actions, nope, I don't even have to respect her actions. But that doesn't mean I have anything against her, and really why would it matter to her if I did. I think sometimes people forget this JUST an internet website.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

-_-


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

Well thanks Bren and also the other nice people who said such nice things about me and Scooby. I am going to have a break from here though. I may be back I may not, who knows?
I just want to say I did enjoy the fun I had and it was nothing personal, I just got tired of MO being catty and I don't like arguments and just lately there seems to be the same element creeping in here too. Heaven knows there is enough fighting in this world of ours without us adding to it.
I would much rather back away than hurt someone's feelings.


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## doctorcathy (May 17, 2004)

wow, finally an interesting thread on SM. LOL. 

whoever came up with the cereal/urine comment...is retarded. its not even funny.

and if people want to leave the forum cuz people are "too mean"---get over it, we're online. and most of us are never going to meet face to face...dont be so sensitive. 

i was just telling my sister that i wish i had known more about puppymills and stuff before i bought the girls. i look at sprite and then jongee--and the price difference is not that much and jongee is soo healthy and sprite has bad teeth and bad knees.







so thats sucky.

and you know what? if you want something expensive (like a purebred, of quality, and healthy maltese) just save up your money. it makes me sick about how i supported a puppymill and that the money i spent on the girls--is helping breed mroe dogs.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dhodina_@Jul 16 2005, 09:53 PM
> *LOL  look at me yall have labeled me how many times?  A pet store buying rasin bran w/ urine eating racist.  Hmmmm and come to think of it I have never insulted someone as a person, just disagreed with their actions.  By the way it makes me laugh as well as shows to me that they have nothing valid to say about the subject so they call names kinda  juvenille to me but hey if it enterains them, have fun. IMO the key to this board is to realize at the end of the day it is just a website.  And no ones opinion of you here really matters in your day to day life, why take it  to that level?  We are all adults and the only person we answer to is ourself,  in the end like Chloe said her desion is already made, she will breed her dog.  Do have to agree or like her actions, nope, I don't even have to respect her actions. But that doesn't mean I have anything against her, and really why would it matter to her if I did.  I think sometimes people forget this JUST an internet website.<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=82019*


[/QUOTE]

You say you have not "insulted someone as a person" but I have seen you do it many times. Maybe you have a different interpretation of "insult" than I do. When you post such harsh comments as "I am sorry but I think you are full of it and just like the attention and money."... I call that insulting. 

SM may be "just" an internet website; however, behind the words posted here are real people with real feelings. Boards such as this are also called "communities".... people get to know each other through these boards and we are known only by what we post. 

Harsh words can hurt even if read on "just an internet web site". Scooby is leaving and quite a few others have left also, because of the way we treat each other here. I don't think we should hide behind our computer screens and say whatever comes to our minds. A little personal restraint goes a long way.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

GROUP HUG!!!


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## doctorcathy (May 17, 2004)

IM GONNA DOG PILE ON CARRIE!!!!


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Jul 16 2005, 09:34 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You say you have not "insulted someone as a person" but I have seen you do it many times. Maybe you have a different interpretation of "insult" than I do. When you post such harsh comments as "I am sorry but I think you are full of it and just like the attention and money."... I call that insulting. 


SM may be "just" an internet website; however, behind the words posted here are real people with real feelings. Boards such as this are also called "communities".... people get to know each other through these boards and we are known only by what we post. 

Harsh words can hurt even if read on "just an internet web site". Scooby is leaving and quite a few others have left also, because of the way we treat each other here. I don't think we should hide behind our computer screens and say whatever comes to our minds. A little personal restraint goes a long way.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=82043
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm was personal restraint mentioned when I had how many "hate mails" from for buying Loca and for other percieved insults? This is the hyprocsy that otherss have mention as well as the cliques. I am not part of your in group so therefore any insults to me are fine. But noone can disagree with anyone yall consider part of your clique. By saying someone isn't telling the truth and questioning their motives is an insult? Then what is calling someone a racist? I got plenty of pm's saying don't worry about it and 'supporting' me but they can't post because they know going against the popular members here will get you crucified. I choose to state my opinions and if yall don't like it kick me off. Do I respond back with name calling after I am called names? Nope I ignore it, it isn't worth my time. I could have choosen to be insulted many many times, but bottomline its an internet site. Like Cathy said "get over it".


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

I just have to ask, if everyone gets this upset over a website, how do you handle everyday life? It is a website; don't be so sensitive to every comment!

And I would just like to address the comment about "too harsh..." Some people need things said loud and clear to them, so if it comes off as being too harsh, so be it--they need to live and most importantly, learn!


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

I am a little tired of people (and there have been a few over last few months) saying they are leaving the forum. If you want to not participate anymore -- that's fine. There is no need to announce it to everyone. Its a little bit like asking for everyone to beg you to stay. I still stand by the fact that there is no need to use comments such as the "peeing in raisin bran" or whatever that was. Its okay to disagree, but there is no need to be rude.

And for chloeandj, I am still curious to know if you do breed your girls. No, you don't have to tell me - its completely your right not to. But it would just help for us to know where you coming from (so that we could understand your side better).


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by okw_@Jul 17 2005, 09:05 AM
> *I am a little tired of people (and there have been a few over last few months) saying they are leaving the forum.  If you want to not participate anymore -- that's fine.  There is no need to announce it to everyone.  Its a little bit like asking for everyone to beg you to stay. <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=82079*


[/QUOTE]

Personally, I like to know if people are leaving or taking a break from SM. If they didn't say anything, I might wonder where they are and if they're OK. We are a community here and if one of us who posts regularly decides to leave or take a break, I appreciate very much them letting us know.


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

To me & many others SM is more than a "internet site" Its a place to learn,share,make new friends,support each other wether it be about our Maltes,our our familys etc.and pass on our knowledge to each other & new members to come.
To me its sad to lose any member.All kinds of topic's can be disscused,but I feel that can be done without name calling and snide remarks. It always seems to be the same ones that cannot add to a thread they dont agree too without acting like a child(a rude one at that)We are all adults and should conduct ourselves as such.Of course we are not all going to agree,but we do not have to bring in name calling ,accusations,rudness etc.
SM is a great place to laugh,love and learn,I hope we do not lose any more members because of fighting and ppl. that cant add to something without stiring up unnessasary trouble.
To me ppl. that respond to someone in such a way leads me to believe that "really" on here and in their "own " lives they must be very unhappy ppl.For if they act that way here,surely that must be how they act in general all the time.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

Well, that very same question could be asked of everyday life. Do people treat their friends and family with the same disrespect as they do the people in here?
I find it very disheartening to see a person trying to share their experiences and ask for some constructive advice only to be inundated with harsh opinions from those who choose to attract attention to themselves.
I have to agree with a comment made earlier that this may be just a web site to some, but to others it is a community of very helpful friendly people who just want to give sound advice, have a laugh, share some wonderful experiences and leave their computer feeling like they have made someone smile, pehaps someone who has had a bad day and came in here to forget about that and enjoy communicating with friends. Instead they find themselves being made to feel even worse by being treated like inferior beings and belittled by people who feel they need to use tactless and hurtful remarks which turn the entire situation into a sparring match.
Those of you who wish to stand on your soapbox and talk down to others as though you are the superior one with all the knowledge and feel that the only way is to be vindictive with your replies feel free to do so, but I for one have the choice here to choose not to become part of that. I do not get any pleasure from hurtful comments, making people regret asking for help or being argumentative.
There are a lot of very nice people in here and I did enjoy being part of a community that was fun, loving and compassionate, but there are a few people here who probably get more pleasure out of hurting others than they do out of extending a friendly, tactful, and genuine message.
I do not wish ill on anyone, I never have and never will. 
May the warmth of the sunshine fill your hearts with love and compassion for your fellow beings and may the light of the Lord shine on the path to the rest of your days and keep you safe in your journey through life.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scoobydoo_@Jul 17 2005, 09:42 AM
> *Well, that very same question could be asked of everyday life. Do people treat their friends and family with the same disrespect as they do the people in here?
> I find it very disheartening to see a person trying to share their experiences and ask for some constructive advice only to be inundated with harsh opinions from those who choose to attract attention to themselves.
> I have to agree with a comment made earlier that this may be just a web site to some, but to others it is a community of very helpful friendly people who just want to give sound advice, have a laugh, share some wonderful experiences and leave their computer feeling like they have made someone smile, pehaps someone who has had a bad day and came in here to forget about that and enjoy communicating with friends. Instead they find themselves being made to feel even worse by being treated like inferior beings and belittled by people who feel they need to use tactless and hurtful remarks which turn the entire situation into a sparring match.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Scoobydoo..... Since 99% of what is posted on SM is not rude and hateful, I hope you'll stay. Here's what I do.... I have implemented the "Ignore User" feature here on SM for the few people whose replies are often snide, harsh, and hurtful. So when those posts show up I can then decide if I am "ready" to read what they have written. Sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not. But that way, it is my choice. Why not stay with us and give that feature a try. .... Please!


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> wow, finally an interesting thread on SM. LOL.
> 
> whoever came up with the cereal/urine comment...is retarded. its not even funny.
> 
> ...


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by okw_@Jul 17 2005, 08:05 AM
> *I am a little tired of people (and there have been a few over last few months) saying they are leaving the forum.  If you want to not participate anymore -- that's fine.  There is no need to announce it to everyone.  Its a little bit like asking for everyone to beg you to stay.  I still stand by the fact that there is no need to use comments such as the "peeing in raisin bran" or whatever that was.  Its okay to disagree, but there is no need to be rude.
> 
> And for chloeandj, I am still curious to know if you do breed your girls.  No, you don't have to tell me - its completely your right not to.  But it would just help for us to know where you coming from (so that we could understand your side better).
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=82079*


[/QUOTE]

I don't even want to comment any more on it, as it's gottton a little out of hand and I just want it to stop. I'm embarrassed it has turned out like this and that I participated in the way I did. I just recently recommended this site to a few people that bought some of my dog clothes for new puppies, I hope they haven't seen this thread.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

<span style="font-family:Optima">*AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!!*</span>


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

So instead of practicing restraint and not continuing the thread ourselves, we have to look to JOE to do it for us? Come on, people. What are we like 5?


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## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

When I would come home from school all upset over something someone did or said and would talk with my Mom about it, all she would say was......CONSIDER THE SOURCE.

This has kept me out of many a fruitless argument or useless confrontation. And I apply it online as well.

SM is still head and shoulders above MO.....at least you can TALK about breeders, breeding, puppymills, etc. on SM. You can even ARGUE about controversial subjects. I do wish people would edit their posts for personal insults and opinions about character, intent, motivation,etc. of others when they can only guess about these things.


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## Teddyandme (Feb 6, 2005)

I have read over the last few days all 9 pages of this topic...like many of you, I know which people are going to say something to be hurtful or start a rucus...I view them as I would a bully on a playground...as someone who is hurting and needs our compassion. 

I know there are others on this forum who I look for and enjoy hearing from...people who I missed from the other site and were glad they joined here...glad I found them when I found this site...people who make me smile or laugh out loud. I am one of those people who views this site as a group of friends... I may never see one of you in person...but I truly care so much for all of you...I remember when KC left MO and I was so upset...and then I found her here...I remember when Samantha died and I was so consumed for days that 3maltmom was hurting and we could do nothing to help her...I remember when denise and Chico and I discovered that our babies were from the same place and then we both found that they were from a puppy mill...we were devasted...but we were there for each other...I remember chatting off line with Scrappy about how to get scooby here and when she came being glad that someone who cares about others was here at last....

There is a reason we are all here and able to care for one another...it is simply a matter of having the love of our precious maltese angels...let us take a lesson from them...my Teddy is the most loving being I have ever met...he loves everyone...will say hello and give a tail wag to each and every person or animal he crosses paths with...let us do the same...without this forum......to many of us would be left to believe we are alone in our unbelieveable love for these wonderful little furbabies.

God created us all...and loved us all....lets try and do the same.























Susan


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

TeddyandMe and Momtwomaltmuffins,
Thank you for for the positive comments.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

Have you ever felt so alone and lost, so down and out that you feel like no one in this world cares whether you are alive or not, ever felt like your life wasn't worth living, that everything you touch turns to dirt? I was once in that situation, I survived a brutal marriage, I suffered broken bones, internal injuries and was almost killed twice by a coward who thought being married was all about total control and power over your partener. The only good to come out of that union are my two wonderful children, if not for them I would not be here typing this now. They gave me the courage to survive, the love to keep going. I made a promise to myself, and to God, that I would never go out of my way to either physically or verbally do harm to any living being if I did survive and manage to take my children out of that dreadful situation.
I did survive, and I am here now, and consider myself very well adjusted, full of fun for life and in spite of everything full of love for my fellow humans. I could have become a bitter resentful excuse for a person, but I escaped one like that so I was determined not to become like the one I fled. I could go on about this but I won't, my life now is blessed, I have two wonderful well adjusted adult children and two beautiful grandchildren, a wonderful gentle and loving husband, and a sweet, adorable little Malt, and I love them all with all my heart. Over time I have made many good friends and one very special friend whom I have not met personally but consider her my truest friend of all. I am so grateful that I did keep going and did get another chance at life.
My point here is, let us all forget the bad and enjoy the good in people, help one another, encourage the good and ignore the bad, have fun together, laugh and cry together, love one another like we are all sisters and brothers, let past discreations be just that, gone to be forgotten, let us all be happy and make the most of this wonderful site. I for one am willing to give it my best shot, what about you?


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## AJ (Jun 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scoobydoo_@Jul 17 2005, 04:00 PM
> *Have you ever felt so alone and lost, so down and out that you feel like no one in this world cares whether you are alive or not, ever felt like your life wasn't worth living, that everything you touch turns to dirt? I was once in that situation, I survived a brutal marriage, I suffered broken bones, internal injuries and was almost killed twice by a coward who thought being married was all about total control and power over your partener. The only good to come out of that union are my two wonderful children, if not for them I would not be here typing this now. They gave me the courage to survive, the love to keep going. I made a promise to myself, and to God, that I would never go out of my way to either physically or verbally do harm to any living being if I did survive and manage to take my children out of that dreadful situation.
> I did survive, and I am here now, and consider myself very well adjusted, full of fun for life and in spite of everything full of love for my fellow humans. I could have become a bitter resentful excuse for a person, but I escaped one like that so I was determined not to become like the one I fled. I could go on about this but I won't, my life now is blessed, I have two wonderful well adjusted adult children and two beautiful grandchildren, a wonderful gentle and loving husband, and a sweet, adorable little Malt, and I love them all with all my heart. Over time I have made many good friends and one very special friend whom I have not met personally but consider her my truest friend of all. I am so grateful that I did keep going and did get another chance at life.
> My point here is, let us all forget the bad and enjoy the good in people, help one another, encourage the good and ignore the bad, have fun together, laugh and cry together, love one another like we are all sisters and brothers, let past discreations be just that, gone to be forgotten, let us all be happy and make the most of this wonderful site. I for one am willing to give it my best shot, what about you?
> ...


[/QUOTE]








omg, I'm soo happy youre alright







I cant believe all youve been through, this site will be wonderful once again, dont worry


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## Laceys mom (Nov 12, 2004)

I wasn't going to respond to this one but I decided too. I don't post as much as many of you do but this is the first place I come to when I sign on the web. I love reading about all the other malt babies and all of you. I hope no one leaves but I do believe we ALL have the right to our believes. I might not respect some of them, but that is my right just as it is their right to have their believes. I hope this is making some sense...I just love coming to this site and don't want to see anyone leave. I thank all of you for all the wonderful advice you have given me regarding Lacey and some advice that had nothing to do with her. Thank you.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

Tah mate


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I backed off this thread when it went sour. I did go back tonight and read all the posts. A couple things crossed my mind. I'll put them out as food for thought.

SOMETIME THE BEST WAY TO WIN AN ARGUMENT IS TO SAY NOTHING. Have you ever noticed that, when a fool opens their mouth and makes a fool of themself, people on here start going at it. What if, when one of these people makes a stupid comment, we just politely post that smiley with the crazy eyes. No comment. It will mean more to say nothing. Then, if the person continues, do it again. It's pretty hard to fight when you fight alone.

HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE HERE MIGHT BE PLANTS FROM THE OTHER SITE TO CAUSE TROUBLE. When I read some of these posts, I can't help but wonder if that is the case.

IT'S A SHAME THIS THREAD GOT SIDETRACKED AS THERE COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD INFORMATION PROVIDED WHERE WE COULD HAVE LEARNED FROM EACH OTHER.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Jul 17 2005, 09:39 PM
> *I backed off this thread when it went sour.  I did go back tonight and read all the posts.  A couple things crossed my mind.  I'll put them out as food for thought.
> 
> SOMETIME THE BEST WAY TO WIN AN ARGUMENT IS TO SAY NOTHING.  Have you ever noticed that, when a fool opens their mouth and makes a fool of themself, people on here start going at it.  What if, when one of these people makes a stupid comment, we just politely post that smiley with the crazy eyes.  No comment.  It will mean more to say nothing.  Then, if the person continues, do it again.  It's pretty hard to fight when you fight alone.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Excellent advice!!! You're right on..... I serendipitously found a site tonight on how to deal with situations like in this thread and yes.... the experts agree it is fruitless to argue with these people. Here is the article: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not. I'm not from the other site...


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj_@Jul 17 2005, 09:57 PM
> *I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not. But I'm not from the other site...I don't even have a user name over there...
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=82271*


[/QUOTE]

I don't think she meant you... I think you have been polite and tried to explain your side in a respectful manner.


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

Good, cause I'm getting confused. But what's new??? :new_Eyecrazy:


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by chloeandj_@Jul 17 2005, 08:57 PM
> *I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not. I'm not from the other site...
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=82271*


[/QUOTE]


No, I didn't even think of you when I wrote my post.


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## AJ (Jun 5, 2005)

-_-


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