# Hi Everybody!



## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

Hello all! Thanks so much for all the nice welcome messages. I read a few posts this morning and was sorry to learn that 2 little guys are under the weather, but I do hope and pray they feel better soon.








I have a few concerns at the moment and thought this would be a good place to get some opinions. This has nothing to do with Mikey, he's 10 months old now, healthy, happy and what a little love bug!







The thing is, I bought another puppy, a female that was born on Dec. 18th. The problem I'm having is with the lady that has the puppies, she wants me to take the puppy when she's 8 weeks old and I know better and also know all the reasons why this isn't a good idea. I don't know how much experience she has with small breeds, but she keeps telling me that at 8 weeks the puppies are weened and strong and ready to go. Can this be possible? I don't think so! Just the other day I read on this website a post about this very subject and I'm very tempted to email the article to this lady, but I don't want to insult her by telling her what's best for her puppies. I got an email just this evening with a update telling me my puppy is doing great and starting to eat with her mom. Is this possibe at only 23 days old, do they have teeth already? I don't think so. I'm not trying to call this lady a liar, but it just doesn't sound possible especially since the article I read on here said they don't start weening and eating until their 8 weeks old. So what does anyone think about all this? I would appreciate any insight on this subject. This whole thing is just starting to make me crazy!









Thanks...Brenda


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## Teddyandme (Feb 6, 2005)

Brenda,

I got my Teddy at 8 weeks, but that was before I had knowledge of it being so benificial for our little ones to stay with the mother and litter. Teddy did great when he got home....but I do believe he was scared to death with all that he went through to get to me, so was just a love bug. At the time I thought I purchased Teddy from a breeder who breed on site and who was responsible...none of that turned out to be true and in reality Teddy must have left his mother at around 7 weeks....because he came from a puppymill across the country which means he had to travel and the day I got him he was 8 weeks old.

Although it worked out for us...I would not allow another puppy of mine to leave it's mother at 8 weeks. Ask her if she could please keep the pup for at least another 2 weeks. Feel her out. 

And good luck.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I really applaud the fact that you have done some homework and are trying to do what is best for your puppy. I don't want to insult you in any way, but if you don't trust your breeder's honesty, aren't you sort of afraid to buy a puppy from her? Have you checked to see if she is on the USDA list which would show that she is a puppy mill? If you feel comfortable that she is not a puppy mill then I would maybe tell a little white lie. I know this sounds terrible, but blame it on your vet. Tell her that the vet suggests that small breeds should stay with their moms longer than 8 weeks. If you need to give her some backup then print out the breed standards from the American Maltese Association and other small breed associations that specifically indicate that 12 weeks is preferred. (There are several.....I checked Yorkies, Poms, Chis and several other toy breeds and some of them have it in their standard, just like the Malts do) If she continues to insist that you take the puppy at 8 weeks I wonder if you might want to consider another breeder. I am very sensitive to the fact that every situation is different, but I would hate to see you feeling like a breeder that you don't really trust is selling you a puppy that you may have for many, many years. As a last resort, I would agree with TeddyandMe that a compromise of 10 weeks would be a bit better.....


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## faun (Jun 12, 2005)

I got Chance at 7 weeks. The breeder here in town was sick herself and had Yorkies going into labor. I have had a dog with pups before and knew how to take care of pups. I was sorry for the breeder and she's not a great breeder BUT I had the chance to socialize and bond with Chance and he has been great. I know littleer pups do better waiting until 12 weeks but he was eating well and my vet started all over with Chances shots anyway. Chance never acted like he missed his Mom and sister at all. He was too busy bonding with his forever family.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Hi Brenda, There are many subtleties to waiting. It's not always obvious why one should wait. The fact that they are eating is just one tiny step toward being ready to leave.

I got my first Maltese, Rosebud (1989-2002) and Kallie at 8 weeks and Catcher at 11 and there was a huge difference in their ability to adjust. Maltese are different from large breeds in that they mature slower. A lab puppy may indeed be ready to leave but a Malt is not. There are so many reasons to wait that I don't even have time to list them all. 

But it sounds like your breeder is a back yard breeder and sometimes they really don't have a depth and breadth of knowledge on the breed. I bought two Malts from such breeders and they both insisted I take the puppies at 7-8 weeks. They just didn't know any better. Even the vet I was using at the time said it was OK.

After having done it twice, I would never ever again take a puppy away from its mother before 11-12 weeks.

If I were in your shoes, I would not buy from this breeder but would look for one who knew more about the breed. I'm not sure if this was the article you were referring to in your post but here is some great info, just in case you haven't seen it. Larry Stanberry from Divine has written on the subject also. Maybe he'll see this thread and post some more info for you.

12-week Rule - Foxstone Maltese


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

It was probably the 12 Week Rule on Foxstone Maltese you saw and I'll post it again. As you'll see, being weaned is not the barometer a reputable Maltese breeder uses. The lessons a puppy learns from his mom and littermates in those extra few weeks are invaluable and shape the kind of adult dog he will be.

A breeder who wants to get rid of her puppies too early is not a reputable breeder IMO. This red flag can also be an indication of more problems with a puppy later on, health or behavior. Best to pass on this breeder and keep looking.

Why is there a 12-week-old rule about selling a Maltese puppy? Have you ever wondered why it is fine to place a large breed puppy at 8 weeks old as opposed to a small breed puppy? Why does the American Maltese Association code of ethics require a Maltese puppy be 12 weeks of age before they are placed in homes? There are many reasons!! I am going to compare lab puppies to Maltese puppies because I have had experience with both breeds in hopes of making it more easily understandable as to why this "12-week-old" rule exists for Maltese and many other "toy" breeds.

At birth there is not a lot of difference.......both litters depend on their moms for food, comfort, and heat. Shortly there after the differences start to become very apparent. A litter of three week old lab puppies are up playing and maneuvering around pretty well and are usually 3 pounds or more in weight. They are also getting their teeth and starting to eat gruel. A litter of Maltese puppies at three weeks of age have an average weight of 13.5 ounces and are just barely starting to get up on their legs and maneuver around readily....they have very little coordination at this point.

By four weeks old a lab litter is usually weaned from their mom. Maltese puppies at 4 weeks old are still very dependant on their mom's for nourishment although at this point I have moved the water bowl down for them to lap and they do lick at mom's food.

By eight weeks there is a drastic difference between a litter of lab puppies and a litter of Maltese puppies. Eight week old lab puppies usually have their teeth now and are eating puppy food. They are also much larger at this point with an average weight of between 20 to 25 pounds. They also seem to be mentally more mature at this point to me and are able to go to their new homes. In many cases, my Maltese puppies do not even have teeth and are still nursing their moms at eight weeks old.

At eight weeks old my Maltese puppies whose "average" weight is 1 pound 9 ounces usually start to get teeth and when those tiny needle sharp teeth start to come in is when Mom decides it is time to wean. This is a very important and scary time for Maltese puppies. They are used to having a milk bar provided for them and many do not really want to eat that nasty old gruel. Since a Maltese puppy is still very small, normally less than 2 pounds, they are also in danger of getting hypoglycemia which is caused by them not eating enough. This can be a very dangerous time for a Maltese puppy since hypoglycemia can result in seizures and even death if not taken care of immediately. This is also the normal time when a Maltese puppy starts to learn about puppy etiquette from it's mom and any other adults around and from playing with siblings, if there is more than one puppy in the litter. They learn about appropriate doggy behavior at this point. This is very important for the future well being and mental stability of this Maltese puppy. Maltese puppies learn some valuable lessons in the weeks after weaning, including how to get along with other dogs, and that biting hurts. These are lessons, all learned in puppy play, that no dog should be without. Some of the most important lessons in life, a puppy will learn from it's mom and siblings. They NEED this time with their mom and littermates!! 

An eight week old Maltese puppy may or may not be ready for it's first puppy shot. Resent studies on vaccination have proven that vaccinations given to a nursing puppy are basically worthless. They need to be weaned for that vaccination to do what it is supposed to do. My Maltese puppies are usually just receiving their first puppy shot sometime between 8 and 10 weeks old. 

So if you are looking for a well rounded Maltese puppy that is going to easily adapt into your life style and home with the least amount of problems, that Maltese puppy should be at least 12 weeks old when you bring it into your home....no exceptions!!!!

If a person/breeder is trying to sell you a Maltese puppy that is under 12 weeks old, or heaven forbid, a Maltese puppy that is 8 weeks old or younger, that person is either extremely unknowledgeable of the Maltese breed as a whole or that person does not have the best interests of their Maltese puppies at heart. Either way, in my opinion, you should steer clear of a person such as this since they are considered to be, in my opinion, unethical and/or disreputable Maltese breeders.

No "reputable" breeder is going to sell you a 
Maltese puppy that is under 12 weeks old!!!!


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

I was going to post a link to the website on why there is a 12-week rule but I see KC's Mom beat me to it. Also another good website to check out is the Maltese Puppy Development. This is a very helpful website. If you click on the pictures it will bring up a page about that age with a little description of the puppy at that age.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I was going to post a link to the website on why there is a 12-week rule but I see KC's Mom beat me to it. Also another good website to check out is the Maltese Puppy Development. This is a very helpful website. If you click on the pictures it will bring up a page about that age with a little description of the puppy at that age.[/B]


Kristi, my link is the Foxstone link. I think there was one that you had posted once before... this isn't that one.... I edited my post to include more info on what the link is....


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Whoops, I just realized K&C's mom already posted the link to Foxstone's 12 Week Rule!

I just found that last week and we've reposted it many times already! Anyway to pin this? It's the best explanation I've found so far.


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

Hey everybody, thanks for all your input on the subject of my new puppy. Last night before I went to bed I sent the lady I'm getting the puppy from an email and told her I was surprised to hear that the puppies were eating solid food already. She emailed back that she cooks for her babies and that it's chicken, rice and veggies, quite palatable as she put it. So with that I guess it's possible and like I said last night in my other post, I don't want to call her a liar, which I seriously don't believe she is. I do know that she has very little experience breeding, but don't really consider her to be a puppy mill or backyard breeder. I ask my husband what a backyard breeder was and he said someone that breeds as a hobby. I've decided to ask her to keep my puppy until she's 10 weeks old at least, and I'm pretty sure she shouldn't have a problem with that. I'm going to try to take a trip up to see the litter sometime soon, but thought I'd wait until their maybe 6 weeks old. I'd very much like to see where the puppies were born and make sure everything is clean and nice the way I think it should be. I sent her a camera a couple of weeks ago and ask her to take pictures every week for me, but won't get the camera back until I go to pickup the puppy. She did send me pictures of the puppies parents and they look healthy and well cared for so that makes me feel better. 
Well that's about it. Thanks again!

Brenda


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

There are really only two different types of breeders, reputable or unreputable. You can divide the unreputable ones in to subcatagories, like puppy mills, backyard breeders, but the bottom line that your best chance of getting a healthy, well socialized, typey Maltese is to buy one from a reputable breeder. 

We hear many stories here of people who buy from a newspaper ad or a pet store and end up with a dog with behavioral and/or health problems. Don't forget most genetic diseases are like ticking time bombs in those little bodies and may not show up for years. My Lady was perfectly healthly for nearly 5 years until she was diagnosed first with epilepsy, then diabetes a year later. I spend $150 _a month _on her medications alone and we seem to be at the vet's monthly, too, another $100 _best case_! (Last month it was $225, the month before $150).

Poorly bred dogs can be difficult to socialize and train and may have unMaltese behavior like aggression. And an "inexperienced" breeder as you say this breeder is most likely isn't breeding to the standard set by the American Maltese Association. Too often we hear of people who are duped and end up with 14 pound dogs with curly coats, and Westie-like faces!

A breeder's breeding program is only as good as her breeding stock. I'd be willing to bet that the dogs she is breeding either came from a pet shop or a BYB. A second or third generation puppy mill dog is no better that one who came directly from the mill.

I know it's hard once you've decided to get a puppy not to jump at the first one you find, but remember, this will hopefully be a 15 year relationship and waiting for one from a good breeder is worth it.

FYI, here's one of the best descriptions of a backyard breeder I have found.

So what is a Backyard Breeder aka BYB?

The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating. The majority of purebred dogs come from this category in many popular breeds, as well as the majority of purebred dogs in rescue, or destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight. Many backyard breeders do not have the knowledge to properly raise a healthy, socialized litter, or to help the new owner with any problems that might arise.


Back yard breeders may act on a desire to make extra money, or simply out of ignorance. Sometimes back yard breeders will breed so "their children can experience the miracle of birth", or they mistakenly believe "every dog should have one litter." They may think their dog is so cute, he/she would make wonderful puppies, with little or no thought for the homes to which their puppies will go. Other back yard breeders see how much money legitimate breeders charge for pups and figure they could make some "easy money" too. Or, a back yard breeder may have a completely unplanned litter by accident.


Back yard breeders usually bring two breeding animals together regardless of their quality. They are not interested in scientific breeding. Their aim is to fulfill a personal need or goal, not to improve the breed and bring excellent quality dogs to the world. Since breed excellence is generally unimportant, the breeding dogs generally will not have been tested for genetic and health problems.


Back yard breeders are not necessarily bad people, they often come from middle to upper income families, and their dogs can be well loved and kept. However, getting a pup from a back yard breeder is a gamble: 

the parents likely have not been screened for health problems 
puppies usually are not sold with contracts 
the breeders are not in it for the long haul 
They will be working on new personal objectives in five years when your pet has a problem and you need help. 

Although you might pay less for the breed of your choice from a pet store or backyard breeder, it's almost a given that in the long run, you'll pay a good deal more in vet bills and perhaps emotional bills (if the dog has to be euthanized due to a health or temperament problem), than you would from a reputable breeder.


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

> Whoops, I just realized K&C's mom already posted the link to Foxstone's 12 Week Rule!
> 
> I just found that last week and we've reposted it many times already! Anyway to pin this? It's the best explanation I've found so far.[/B]


I have the link for that in my thread about questions to ask a breeder. Joe pinned that in the breeder section.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

I would first like to say that I believe in the 12 week rule and believe that puppies should stay with their litter until 12 weeks. However, many of us have brought our puppies home earlier without problems as long as we were aware of the potentional problems. In my case Ty was a singleton, from a "hobby breeder" who I cannot say enough positive things about. Her dogs were raised in her living room in a spotless home and it was quite clear that she was totally devoted to them. At the time I was unaware of the 12 week rule and she told me she normally kept her puppies for 10 weeks. But at 8 weeks she called me and told me he was completely weaned, large because he was a singleton and that I could come and get him. I did. 

I brought Ty home at just over 8 weeks, took 2 weeks "maternity leave", was extremely vigalant about making sure that he ate and drank adequate amounts. I never had any problems. I think you need to meet your breeder, see her home and the atmosphere that she is raising the puppies in, talk to her, ask questions, see if you are comfortable with her answers and the support that she is willing to give you. 

Sorry Marj, I usually agree with you but in this case I don't. We use the expression "back yard breeder" here as if it were a dirty word sometimes. But I have known "hobby breeders" who were very caring, knowledgable breeders that produced puppies that met or exceeded all the standards of their breed. I think we should use the expression responsible and irreponsible breeder instead.


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

> I would first like to say that I believe in the 12 week rule and believe that puppies should stay with their litter until 12 weeks. However, many of us have brought our puppies home earlier without problems as long as we were aware of the potentional problems. In my case Ty was a singleton, from a "hobby breeder" who I cannot say enough positive things about. Her dogs were raised in her living room in a spotless home and it was quite clear that she was totally devoted to them. At the time I was unaware of the 12 week rule and she told me she normally kept her puppies for 10 weeks. But at 8 weeks she called me and told me he was completely weaned, large because he was a singleton and that I could come and get him. I did.
> 
> I brought Ty home at just over 8 weeks, took 2 weeks "maternity leave", was extremely vigalant about making sure that he ate and drank adequate amounts. I never had any problems. I think you need to meet your breeder, see her home and the atmosphere that she is raising the puppies in, talk to her, ask questions, see if you are comfortable with her answers and the support that she is willing to give you.
> 
> Sorry Marj, I usually agree with you but in this case I don't. We use the expression "back yard breeder" here as if it were a dirty word sometimes. But I have known "hobby breeders" who were very caring, knowledgable breeders that produced puppies that met or exceeded all the standards of their breed. I think we should use the expression responsible and irreponsible breeder instead.[/B]





> I would first like to say that I believe in the 12 week rule and believe that puppies should stay with their litter until 12 weeks. However, many of us have brought our puppies home earlier without problems as long as we were aware of the potentional problems. In my case Ty was a singleton, from a "hobby breeder" who I cannot say enough positive things about. Her dogs were raised in her living room in a spotless home and it was quite clear that she was totally devoted to them. At the time I was unaware of the 12 week rule and she told me she normally kept her puppies for 10 weeks. But at 8 weeks she called me and told me he was completely weaned, large because he was a singleton and that I could come and get him. I did.
> 
> I brought Ty home at just over 8 weeks, took 2 weeks "maternity leave", was extremely vigalant about making sure that he ate and drank adequate amounts. I never had any problems. I think you need to meet your breeder, see her home and the atmosphere that she is raising the puppies in, talk to her, ask questions, see if you are comfortable with her answers and the support that she is willing to give you.
> 
> Sorry Marj, I usually agree with you but in this case I don't. We use the expression "back yard breeder" here as if it were a dirty word sometimes. But I have known "hobby breeders" who were very caring, knowledgable breeders that produced puppies that met or exceeded all the standards of their breed. I think we should use the expression responsible and irreponsible breeder instead.[/B]





> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=138944
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Thanks puppymom and all the rest of the people that offered advice in my situation. I have to say I feel better knowing that some of you got your babies at a really young age and they turned out fine. I think my biggest concern is making sure this little guy is able to eat enough to keep from getting hypoglycemia. I've read about that and know that's it's pretty common in these little ones. Someone also told me about a product called Nutracal or something like that, and that would help to prevent the problem. Also as I said in my last post, the lady's dogs look great, perfectly healthy and they are AKC. I'll just have to wait and see how this all works out. I'll keep you posted.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I would first like to say that I believe in the 12 week rule and believe that puppies should stay with their litter until 12 weeks. However, many of us have brought our puppies home earlier without problems as long as we were aware of the potentional problems. In my case Ty was a singleton, from a "hobby breeder" who I cannot say enough positive things about. Her dogs were raised in her living room in a spotless home and it was quite clear that she was totally devoted to them. At the time I was unaware of the 12 week rule and she told me she normally kept her puppies for 10 weeks. But at 8 weeks she called me and told me he was completely weaned, large because he was a singleton and that I could come and get him. I did.
> 
> I brought Ty home at just over 8 weeks, took 2 weeks "maternity leave", was extremely vigalant about making sure that he ate and drank adequate amounts. I never had any problems. I think you need to meet your breeder, see her home and the atmosphere that she is raising the puppies in, talk to her, ask questions, see if you are comfortable with her answers and the support that she is willing to give you.
> 
> Sorry Marj, I usually agree with you but in this case I don't. We use the expression "back yard breeder" here as if it were a dirty word sometimes. But I have known "hobby breeders" who were very caring, knowledgable breeders that produced puppies that met or exceeded all the standards of their breed. I think we should use the expression responsible and irreponsible breeder instead.[/B]


I think the problem that some of us see with BYB's is that many, many of them pay no attention whatsoever to their breeding stock. They often use two pet store dogs and breed them (as was the case with both Rosebud's and Kallie's parents). Because they don't know the history of the lines of their breeding dogs they don't know what, if any, genetic diseases their breeding dogs carry. Their puppies are often way, way off from standard. As I mentioned in another post, it is a total crap shoot with BYB's as to what you'll get. 

After all, most of us want a Malt because of certain looks and character traits. The chances of getting these is much greater with a breeder who has carefully chosen his/her stock than with one who pays no attention to pedigree whatsoever.

From my experience with BYBs, they usually are not truly knowledgable about the breed regarding such things as the 12-week rule and other potential health concerns. If they were truly responsible breeders they would understand that eating solid food is no reason whatsoever to remove an 8-week puppy from its mother.


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

I totally get what you're saying here and even agree with some of it, but I haven't even given this lady a chance. Just because she's not a professional breeder doesn't mean that she can't have nice malts and breed beautiful puppies. I just think she needs to get a little more educated if she wants to continue to breed her dogs.













From my experience with BYBs, they usually are not truly knowledgable about the breed regarding such things as the 12-week rule and other potential health concerns. If they were truly responsible breeders they would understand that eating solid food is no reason whatsoever to remove an 8-week puppy from its mother.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I totally get what you're saying here and even agree with some of it, but I haven't even given this lady a chance. Just because she's not a professional breeder doesn't mean that she can't have nice malts and breed beautiful puppies. I just think she needs to get a little more educated if she wants to continue to breed her dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course she could end up having nice, beautiful Malts... but who knows.... she probably doesn't even know... I know we all are different and after having bought from two BYB's (Rosebud & Kallie) I know I won't do so again. But that's just me. Everyone is free to do what is best for them. If I have knowledge and information that might be helpful, I will gladly share it here on SM. What you do with it is your own business.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I agree with K&C's Mom. We are only here to give advice based on our own personal experience when someone asks a question here. It is well-intentioned. Both K&C's Mom and I have lived with and loved poorly bred dogs with chronic health problems. It is because of that that I try so hard to make people aware of the kind of trouble you may be buying wrapped in that cute puppy package.

I think the telling thing is that those of who do get a poorly bred Maltese with health problems learn our lesson and don't repeat the same mistake. Lady is a rescue, but next time I will either get a puppy from the best breeder I can afford even if it means saving for years or adopt a retiree from a top breeder. 

I spend about $3,000 a year on Lady's medication, diabetic supplies and vet visits. That's a good year when she doesn't have to be hospitalized (that's happened 3 times in 5 years) which pushes the annual cost up another $1000. I can't even put a price on the heartbreak and emotional toll loving her has been.

Please remember that Lady was a seemingly perfectly healthy dog for nearly 5 years.

Ask yourself if you would trust an inexperienced doctor to perform your surgery, or someone with no knowledge of cars to work on your transmission. To me, the decsion about where to get an animal companion is equally as serious. 

I will continue to share her story in the hopes that I can spare others from the devastating financial and emotional burden a poorly bred dog can be. Whether or not he or she chooses to listen, of course, is an individual choice.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

Marj, You are making some absolutely valid points but I want to point out that even dogs with the best of breeding can wind up with significant and devastating health problems. Good breeding certainly goes along way towards insuring that you will have a healthy puppy but if you follow any of the breder forums you will quickly see that they have the same heart break of sick puppies (not as often ) as the rest of us do. The point is that whether cocker spainial or beagel bringing a puppy into your life can be an expensive proposition somewhere down the line!!!


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

> Marj, You are making some absolutely valid points but I want to point out that even dogs with the best of breeding can wind up with significant and devastating health problems. Good breeding certainly goes along way towards insuring that you will have a healthy puppy but if you follow any of the breder forums you will quickly see that they have the same heart break of sick puppies (not as often ) as the rest of us do. The point is that whether cocker spainial or beagel bringing a puppy into your life can be an expensive proposition somewhere down the line!!![/B]




Thank You Puppymom...


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