# Thoughts on Hill's Prescription Diet W/D when vet recommends it?



## lawgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

I need your expertise, please! I brought Darcy's fecal sample back to the vet's to get it checked today because he's been having on-again, off-again mushy poo for the past month. No diarrhea, but definitely abnormally soft stool, the consistency of peanut butter. If you recall, he had a particularly gruesome episode of mucousy stool following his neuter surgery in early August. The vet told me to keep monitoring him and see if the stool firmed up after the stress of the surgery had worn off; the mucous indeed disappeared and he had a few days of normal stool, but the mush texture returned soon after. It's a drag to clean up after, and it can't be good for his digestive tract!

I currently feed Orijen 6-Fish kibble mixed with Merrick canned food (Turducken, French Country Cafe, mostly duck, so as to avoid chicken and other common ingredients). I also add Prozyme probiotic.

I suspected my dog might have IBD, which is idiopathic, and was hoping the vet would put him on a low dose of metronizadole long-term for maintenance (anti-inflammatory). But instead she recommended changing the diet: to *Hill's Prescription Diet W/D*. It's supposed to be higher fiber and blander.

Frankly, I feel uncomfortable with the notion of being tied, as a consumer, to one brand of low-quality commercial food that is available only through the vet at inflated prices, for the rest of my dog's life. I asked my vet if there were any non-Rx, comparable brands; she said that a more bland diet in general might lower the irritation he is experiencing.

The ingredients for Hill's Prescription Diet W/D are:
_Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose 17.1% (source of fiber), Chicken by-product Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Mill Run, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Oil, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Meal, Iron Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Sulfate, L-Lysine, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, L-Carnitine, L-Tryptophan, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract._

The first ingredients include corn, by-products, soybean, and corn gluten! :smheat: After everything I've read about commercial dog foods, I'm really disappointed with this ingredient list and nervous about feeding it to my dog.

So--do any of you have experience with Hill's W/D Diet? Or, can any of you recommend a *good, bland, HIGH-FIBER* food (kibble, canned, or both) that is really healthy? Thank you so much, I'm quite perplexed and need your advice.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Prescription foods have their place...its up to you and your vet to decide if trying an OTC food is appropriate. 

Metronidazole is an antibiotic with anti-inflammatory properties in the gut. I personally try to avoid long-term drug use if possible. I'd much rather try diet, especially with such mild symptoms. It could be as simple as the food you are feeding being too rich and high in fat.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Darcy's pretty young to have IBD. It's possible, but...might be something else....

Can you cook for him for awhile to get him back on track and then reassess?


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

How much can/wet food do you add to Darcy's dry kibble?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I know how you feel! When Lady was diagnosed with diabetes almost eight years ago, my vet recommended Hills W/D. I came home with a case of the canned, but never finished it. It made no sense to me why you would feed an immune compromised dog such low grade ingredients. The kibble actually contains peanut hulls for fiber, floor sweepings with no nutritional value. :thmbdn: 

You can actually add fiber yourself with Benefiber. 

Have you tried taking him off the Merrick and see if that helps?


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

My first Malt, Rosebud, had mucousy stool for the longest time. We tried every food imaginable... I kept a log of the food and the consistency of her poop... I got so discouraged. Finally we tried WD canned and it was like a miracle! She had firm stool for the rest of her life. She started on it at about 3 years old and lived until 12-1/2. She couldn't eat anything but her food or she would have problems, though. At the end I would put corn flakes on her food to get her to eat and she was fine with it, amazingly. Back then (1990s) I didn't know anything about dog food and just went with what the vet suggested. I'm sort of glad I didn't know! This food worked great but now that I "know"... I'm not sure what I would do!


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## Simon & Simone (Apr 13, 2009)

It sounds like JMM has the right approach. I think switching to a kibble that is not as high in fat/protein and is balanced might solve the soft stool. I personally have not heard of the brand you are using but I tend to use Royal Canine and add some chicken or fish or beef to their food daily and I do notice if I put too much protein their stool is soft. The more dry food I give them the harder the stool. You might want to experiment with the portions of dry/soft food to see if that helps solve the problem as well.


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## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

If it were me I would stay far away from the stuff. If you can't find a commercial food that works, then consult with a nutritionist and home cook. I don't see why that company can't use decent ingredients. Yuck. Anyway, perhaps the duck and fish just don't agree with him. How does he do on lamb or chicken? Also, California Natural is a bland food to look into. Good luck I hope you find something that works!


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

The vet put Boo on Hills W/M after he had pancreatitis. It is the lowfat prescription. I didn't like the ingredients either. I fed it to Hannah too,just to finish the bag. They both pooped stinky poo & twice as much of it.Hannah had gas & Boo seemed to always be hungry. I switched back to Natural Balance, the reduced calorie variety.Now I feed them the NB sweet potato & venison formula for breakfast & the NB reduced calorie for dinner.I rarely feed canned/wet. They've never had any kind of tummy problems or poop problems though,so I can't advice on the W/D formula. I just do not like the ingredients in any of the Hills Science Diet products. Hope you find something else Darcy can eat.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I would never feed my dog Hill's Science Diet, the ingredients look awful. I use Orijen 6 Fish also and like that it is grain free and lower in fat than most other high protein foods. If I were in your position, I would stop feeding the canned food and add organic pumpkin to the kibble to increase the fiber (start with a teaspoon and gradually increase if you need to). That might firm her up for good. 

We also use Acana Pacifica kibble. It is from the same manufacturer as Orijen (Champion Pet Foods) and is grain free, but has lower protein. I also rotate with the Acana Grasslands formula. And I will occassionally use Stella and Chewy freeze dried lamb as treats - but that is really high in fat. Whenever I transition I have to do it slowly because Stuart has a sensitive tummy. Reina's is cast iron.

HTH and good luck with your baby!


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm not a fan of Hills or Purina and personally would never feed them to my pets. I personally chose to find a nutritionist and feed homecooked when Lacy was diagnosed with IBD and she has done wonderful ever since (hope it continues!). 

Maybe you could try a limited ingredient diet with one carb and one protein source such as Natural Balance. They have a few different formulas in that line. There are other brands too with "allergy formulas" such as Wellness that might be worth a try. 

Have you done any GI bloodwork like a TLI panel? Lacy had that done and had low folate and cobalamine levels. We changed her diet and gave Tylosin for a little over a month and vitamin B injections weekly for a while. I was also giving proenzymes for a while but stopped.


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## coconuts (Apr 19, 2009)

I have to use Science Diet L/D with Coconut because she has to have a low protein diet and I haven't found any other food that has low enough protein. Wish I could though because I think that some of the ingredients in the Hills food is making her scratch. But ever since she started the Hills food her blood work has been perfect so that is why I stuck with it. Her poop is firm and doesn't have a smell either.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Coconuts @ Sep 21 2009, 10:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832542


> I have to use Science Diet L/D with Coconut because she has to have a low protein diet and I haven't found any other food that has low enough protein. Wish I could though because I think that some of the ingredients in the Hills food is making her scratch. But ever since she started the Hills food her blood work has been perfect so that is why I stuck with it. Her poop is firm and doesn't have a smell either.[/B]



There are a couple of high quality commercial foods that have low protein. Many owners of liver compromised dogs have feed them successfully.

Solid Gold Holistique Blendz is one. It is 18% protein:

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/sh...=6&code=160

Wellness Supermix Healthy Weight is another one. It has 17% protein:

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/dog_wellnes...ight_management


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

When my Missy was dx with diabetes she was put on the WD ... At the time she also had a full blood panel done and several things were off. My main goal was to get het to good regulation and I trusted my vet. Missy regulated pretty quickly and maintained that to her last day. I did 'experiment 'after she got regulated and her blood glucose numbers went "off so I figured the WD worked well for her so better stick with it. I had follow up blood panels done within the year and more after that. Her results got bettter and better till they were all but perfect. I figured if the blood work showed such good results the food couldn't be all that terrible.

Another gal on our group had a little Cairn dx with intestional issue at age 6 and was put on the WD food. That little dog lived to be 17 years old! That's not too shabby and over the 11 years that little dog was on nothing but WD . In spite of the ingredients label there must be adequate nutrition or that little dog would not have had such a good long lifespan on it as it was her only source of food. 

Presently Quincy has been on WD mixed into his other food. He had been on the premium and highly rated EVO... his blood work had a lot of 'offs" and vet wanted him on the lowest fat diet possible. In addition to other issues , he developed fatty deposits in his eyes. Vet advised the WD to help the 'poops-problem' at least for awhile but said if need be it might be needed regularly. I found that I only have to add about 1/4 c. of Wd to his Chicken Soup for dog lovers soul" and it gives him good solid stool. I have Naddie on the chicken Soup as well.... and I have to add about a teaspoon of WD to hers because otherwise she want's Quincy's  LOL 

I will say now if either got diabetes I'd go with the WD in a heartbeat as it really does a great job with the insulin to get those high BG numbers into good range realtively quickly and with diabetes the sooner the better. I saw with my own eyes the improvement in her blood work when on it and into good regulation. I do happen to feel the canned is better than the dry.
Once regulated would I try another food? I don't know.. I might slowly introduce and since I could blood test myself to carefully monitor I'd see. But, IF the WD kept things in control and blood panels showed good I'd be very happy with that if that's what it took.

I think there are times when it is more important to give what gets the pooch needs to where the 'issue' is resolved. As I said in a case like Quincy the high rated food was actually bad for him! The specially formulated food for specific isses have their place in my opinion.


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## Kissi's Mom (Apr 21, 2006)

QUOTE (lawgirl @ Sep 21 2009, 08:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832485


> I need your expertise, please! I brought Darcy's fecal sample back to the vet's to get it checked today because he's been having on-again, off-again mushy poo for the past month. No diarrhea, but definitely abnormally soft stool, the consistency of peanut butter. If you recall, he had a particularly gruesome episode of mucousy stool following his neuter surgery in early August. The vet told me to keep monitoring him and see if the stool firmed up after the stress of the surgery had worn off; the mucous indeed disappeared and he had a few days of normal stool, but the mush texture returned soon after. It's a drag to clean up after, and it can't be good for his digestive tract!
> 
> I currently feed Orijen 6-Fish kibble mixed with Merrick canned food (Turducken, French Country Cafe, mostly duck, so as to avoid chicken and other common ingredients). I also add Prozyme probiotic.
> 
> ...


Kissi was diagnosed with IBD at just over 1 year old...she was on Hill's Science Diet for about 11 months (the quality of ingredients was very evident in her coat etc), I finally put her on Merrick and she did pretty well but was on meds for the IBD off and on and still had frequent flare ups (soft poop/diarrhea, w/jelly and often blood). Poor baby...you could hear her tummy rumble across the room sometimes. Back in the spring, my daughter took one of her pups to a new vet that offers some speciality services, while there she noticed that the practice offered nutritional counselling and on a fluke told her about Kissi's issues and asked what she would recommend. She started talking about hot and cold personality types, etc., and what each should be eating. She ended up suggesting NB duck and potato (grain free)...I tried it and
Kissi has had no meds for probably 4/5 months and only 1 or 2 very slight flare ups ....don't know if this might help you but it sure did help Kissi. She suggested several different types of food to try(fish, bison etc) but Kissi has done so well on the duck & potato that I haven't tried anything else. She said that warm personality types (DUH...Kissi is a maltese) should stay away from chicken and lamb (which is what she had always eaten) and also should be fed grain free food.

As for the metronidazole...my vet uses it when necessary...but never more than 5 days at a time and always as small a dose as you can get by with. The stuff can cause some pretty serious side effects if not used properly. My daughter has an Australian shepherd that was given too high a dose for too many days and ended up with some neurological damage. (it goes without saying...we do not use that vet any longer).

Anyway, hope this helps, good luck.
Linda


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Chase has colitis and is on Prescription Diet canned z/d and Royal Canine Venison and Potato, dry.
Ozzy eats this as well and both are doing great, healthy and no problems. 
We couldn't be happier!!

They never get raw hides or chew sticks as those are processed in formaldehyde and cause UTI's.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I know a little bit about nutrition.

If it were my dog, I'd home cook and totally leave out *any type of grain*.* Dogs were not meant to eat grains*. That Hill's food is full of corn, which is the worst thing you can give a dog. I wouldn't feed that food to my dog even if they gave me a free lifetime supply. Food like that just eliminate SYMPTOMS. They don't cure a dog.

I'd use Animal Essentials vitamins, which have flax and chia seed in them for fiber and Essential Fatty Acids. I'd give my dog probiotics every day. 

Find a veterinary nutritionist or a holistic vet who can make up a recipe for you. *Do it now *so your furbaby won't have lifelong digestion problems.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 22 2009, 08:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832592


> I know a little bit about nutrition.
> 
> If it were my dog, I'd home cook and totally leave out *any type of grain*.* Dogs were not meant to eat grains*. That Hill's food is full of corn, which is the worst thing you can give a dog. I wouldn't feed that food to my dog even if they gave me a free lifetime supply. Food like that just eliminate SYMPTOMS. They don't cure a dog.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: Totally agree with Suzan. Think of it this way, you can always switch to Hill's later if home cooking doesn't work. But if your dog gets all symptoms cleared with Hill's, you'll never feel like you can try home cooking to get your baby back to normal and eating whatever you decide later. You'll think it's too risky. It'd be fine to get stuck on Hill's for life if the ingredients were good, but they're not....so you'd be stuck feeding something with poor nutrition...

p.s.: Casanova had GI problems and got totally back on track with white fish and veggies. Fish is very anti-inflammatory and I highly recommend this to get your baby back to health. Once he's healthy again, he might be able to eat anything. That's what happened with us-- Casanova has an iron stomach now, but we still home cook because we've seen the difference in energy level and health. Kibble is extruded and highly processed. It'd be very difficult for an unhealthy dog to get well on kibble, but once healed with wholesome, home cooked food, you will have a bigger margin for error in the future.


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 21 2009, 09:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832505


> Prescription foods have their place...its up to you and your vet to decide if trying an OTC food is appropriate.
> 
> Metronidazole is an antibiotic with anti-inflammatory properties in the gut. I personally try to avoid long-term drug use if possible. I'd much rather try diet, especially with such mild symptoms. It could be as simple as the food you are feeding being too rich and high in fat.[/B]


Ditto.

YoYo (my cocker/malt mix) had the identical problem to your baby and the vet recommended the SD w/d as well. So...we did two weeks of Metronidazole and then, rather than doing the SD w/d, I tried out the SD Sensitive Stomach, which is sold in all stores and the ingredients are almost identical to the w/d. After about 3 or so weeks, the meds and food combined, he is back to normal. His evening poop is occcasionally maybe 90% normal--not quite 100%. But the rest of the time it's fine.

I won't get into the great food debate here and now but I, too, have done my homework. I am also giving Ollie the sensitive stomach SD as well right now beccause he does have a sensitive stomach. He's done well on it--no staining, etc. I suppliment their kibble diets almost every night with fresh veggies and low-fat meat. I think they're getting enough. They've both been on the SD now for about 6-8 weeks and doing well--good poops, heathy skin, hair, eyes, etc.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Grains cause a lot of digestion issues in dogs. Though they are omnivores, their main diet always consisted of meat. Grains mess with their skin and their digestion. Grains are:
wheat 
rice
corn
rye
oats
barley
triticale
teff
kamut
spelt
semolina
cellulose (from wheat or corn)
soy ( though not a grain, foods are loaded with it. Very inflammatory.)

Give these foods to your dog, and expect skin or digestion issues somewhere along the way.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 22 2009, 08:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832592


> I know a little bit about nutrition.
> 
> If it were my dog, I'd home cook and totally leave out *any type of grain*.* Dogs were not meant to eat grains*. That Hill's food is full of corn, which is the worst thing you can give a dog. I wouldn't feed that food to my dog even if they gave me a free lifetime supply. Food like that just eliminate SYMPTOMS. They don't cure a dog.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: Susan Davis is an excellent nutritionist.

http://www.askariel.com/

I absolutely believe that Lady has lived to be 14 (and still going strong  ) because I have always fed her a high quality diet and used supplements. She has been diabetic for almost eight of her fourteen years, too, which absolutely amazes all her vets, even the vets at the vet school. 

I switched to to homecooked about a year ago after her liver values were high from nine years of seizure medication and she had three episodes of HGE. She just had bloodwork done a couple of months ago and all her values are now in the normal range! She never had another bout of HGE, either. My vet says she has the bloodwork of a puppy.

My mother always told us "you are what you eat".


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 22 2009, 10:19 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832618


> Grains cause a lot of digestion issues in dogs. Though they are omnivores, their main diet always consisted of meat. Grains mess with their skin and their digestion. Grains are:
> wheat
> rice
> corn
> ...


The argument is that dogs have evolved over thousands of years of being domesticated...(but I'm not arguing, lol)

The SD Sensitive Stomach has been YoYo's savior. (and it sounds like for others, too) I think whatever brings our babies relief, just do it/try it. Once they are stable you can make adjustments. I don't imagine I'll keep mine on SD forever....


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

I have both of my pups on Hill's Prescription Diet Canine d/d Potato and Duck... kodie needed it for allergies... The Ingredients dont look too bad in it... i think it just depends. Some of the higher quality foods are too rich for my kodie.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

My friend's Malt had a stone removed and gets crystals - the vet has her on one of the Science Diet foods, Elaine hates the consistancy of it and hates the idea.....but Phoebe is doing better and her coat has really gotten better too. Who whould have thought?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Our domestic dogs' closest relative is wild dogs, traditionally studied in African and Indonesian villages. These dogs tend to eat left overs in the village which often include grain such as rice and organ meat, not muscle meat/bone. Wolves also graze on grasses and plants. Dogs are quite the omnivores. Grain free is great for some dogs, but other dogs thrive on a diet that includes more carbs and grains. Dogs who need more fiber tend to do better on diets with grain. Each dog is an individual and should be treated as such IMO.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

my dex was sick for a year itched on ultra z/d and could not handle any white potato dog foods and since on purina ha has not had any vomitting other than two mild episodes this year due to car sickness so while i am not the biggest fan of vet foods sometimes they work and are the only thing that works as with my dex so he will eat this the rest of his life as it cost me a ton for a year as he was being hospitalized for ibd and pancreatitis and almost died of pancreatitis and had to have a plasma transfusion which saved his life so if it works stick with it. I have had friends switch off vet foods thinking they were bad and their dog ended up right back in the hospital so if it works DO NOT MESS with it or you can be opening the door to more health issues with a dog that already has health issues. I was not willing to risk diabetes which they can get from getting pancreatitis over and over so Dex is not getting anything but purina ha


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok here is my take as my dex has ibd in small intestines and only vomits and ibd in large intestines is diarhea - now what i think your dog has is not necessarily ibd as it was brought on by a stressful situation the neuter so I personally think your dog has colitis as colitis is not easy to get rid off as i found when dee dee got it after metacam incident. Let me ask you this after the spay what med were you given? Was it rimadyl, deramax or metacam? If so and it was given on empty stomach and or with a steroid this could have exacerbated the situation because the stress will trigger colitis and nsaids affect the lining of the intestines and perforate a human bowel so also can with dogs per pharmacist so should NEVER be give on empty stomach which the idiot vet did to my dee dee and we are now in august and still battling colitis. Also colitis can be exacerbated by high fiber as well as i was giving dd brown rice and pumpkin which also further made it worse as brown rice is extremely hard to digest as it has the hull on it and very high in fiber so NO BROWN RICE and brown rice needs to be could 20 min longer than for humans for dogs so they can digest it as their digestive tract is not as long as a human and when dd pooped the rice was coming out WHOLE and in LARGE VOLUME so it was going right through her and i was feeding chicken and ims told me no chicken as dogs with allergies which dd does tend to have ibd and chicken makes it worse so my guess is the turkey is not helping as it is in the poultry family. I would not put your dog who could very well have colitis as it sounds more like colitis than ibd from what you are describing on a high fiber diet as that will only make it worse in my opinion. No inflammatory foods either and also dogs with IBD AND COLITIS SHOULD NEVER HAVE NSAIDS as they inflame the intestines causing all kinds of problems so if your dog has allergies they can very well have IBD and i would not let them get nsaid. Narcotics are much safer which is Tramadol. 

My recommendation for digestive issues if your dog will eat it is purina ha as it is a hydrolized protein soy which helps the dog not have to break protein down as it is already broken down for them. It is a limited ingredient diet. It makes their poops more on the harder side than soft. Once i started giving dd wet purina ha as i had to water it down as it only comes in kibble she has been doing better and less episodes. I also use probiotics. Prozyme i believe has digestive enzymes mixed with probiotics but not sure -- i use just a probiotic for dee dee. If she has a bout of diarhea i mix probiotic in a little pumpkin. I now pill her with natural balance fish and sweet potato since she can no longer tolerate white potato, sweet potato, chicken, nor yam from metacam incident. Oh and it was from ONE dose of metacam but dd is also on temarilp which this vet knew and insisted it was safe when i knew it was NOT but i TRUSTED him as he is a VET. No longer will i and will NO LONGER let a vet pressure me into something i am NOT comfortable with as this has been an absolute nightmare since feb with her. 

High fiber can cause diarhea -- fiber helps with both constipation and diarrhea so too much fiber can cause more diarrhea 

as far as a long term med if it comes to that i recommend tylan powder as per ims it is a lower dose of antibiotic than metronidazole and much safer due to that for long term use. She uses tylan in toy breeds as she said metronidazole has to be compounded down for toy breeds where as tylan does not. BUT tylan is very bitter SO there is a capsule making gadget which my friend told me about that i am buying and i have the tylan powder so if it ever comes to that I will use that but for now i prefer probiotics first. The probiotics i use are dds plus which is acidopholus, biffidus and fos and i believe it is 5 billion. I get it from the vitamin shoppe in the fridge section for $17 for 100 capsules and give 2 daily 30 min before food on a plate or i mix with a tiny bit of pumpkin - most dogs lick off plate as it is sweet and they like the taste but it is sticky so if your baby has long hair you can open mouth and poor in or do with a little pumpkin - it needs to go before food to coat the digestive tract first thing in morning 




QUOTE (lawgirl @ Sep 21 2009, 07:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832485


> I need your expertise, please! I brought Darcy's fecal sample back to the vet's to get it checked today because he's been having on-again, off-again mushy poo for the past month. No diarrhea, but definitely abnormally soft stool, the consistency of peanut butter. If you recall, he had a particularly gruesome episode of mucousy stool following his neuter surgery in early August. The vet told me to keep monitoring him and see if the stool firmed up after the stress of the surgery had worn off; the mucous indeed disappeared and he had a few days of normal stool, but the mush texture returned soon after. It's a drag to clean up after, and it can't be good for his digestive tract!
> 
> I currently feed Orijen 6-Fish kibble mixed with Merrick canned food (Turducken, French Country Cafe, mostly duck, so as to avoid chicken and other common ingredients). I also add Prozyme probiotic.
> 
> ...


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Orijen published an excellent white paper on their website if you are interested in the grain vs. no grain debate. Basically it states that our dogs' digestive system has not changed, so the blanket "evolved to eat grains" statement is questionable. Some dogs may eat grains with no problems, but that does not mean that grains are the best food for them given their digestive tract is so much shorter than ours.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

also white potato is inflammatory and sweet potato is anti-inflammatory 

If you want to try a limited ingredient food that is not a vet food my strong recommendation is natural balance venison and sweet potato as it is limited and sweet potato is anti-inflammatory. I would be cautious of high fiber and not real impressed with HILLS as my dog relapsed after 5 days on their SUPPOSED PANCREATITIS FOOD and ended up hospitalized and more severe and ims said they NEVER recommend this food for pancreatitis dogs as they have had more dogs relapse on that food yet when i called hills to get it off the list they said there is no way this caused it and YES IT DID as my dog got nothing else but that food and still relapsed much more severe and almost died. Also another friends dog went from w/d to i/d who had pancreatitis and ended up back in the hospital within a week of going on i/d - it has PORK in it hello  

Colitis is not an easy fix i learned as on an allergy with another girl and when i told her dd had colitis after the metacam incident she said OH BOY this is a tough one to get rid off as it rears its ugly head over and over in stressful situations and is a tough one to deal with


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Sep 22 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832658


> Orijen published an excellent white paper on their website if you are interested in the grain vs. no grain debate. Basically it states that our dogs' digestive system has not changed, so the blanket "evolved to eat grains" statement is questionable. Some dogs may eat grains with no problems, but that does not mean that grains are the best food for them given their digestive tract is so much shorter than ours.[/B]


Exactly. Thank you.

Edited to add: The other problems with grains are large amounts of added pesticides and genetic modification.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

My Jett came to me with SEVERE IBS. For over 4 months he had mucusy/runny diarrhea several times a day. He could only eat chicken and rice. When I tried to add even 1-2 pieces of kibble into his diet, it was explosive diarrhea. Multiple butt baths a day and twice emg. sub q fluids due to dehydration until I got smart and kept unflavored pedialyte in my pantry and syringed that into his mouth during really bad episodes. We were about to do the biopsy to check for IBD, but that's when I discovered Probiotics and SOFT food as recommended by by 'go to person' at Animal Essentials. Within 24 hours he was on half chicken and rice and half of his soft food and within 3 days totally on soft food. Talk about a miracle! If Darcy is having any type of colitis, IBS, etc... keep him on soft food. Just like we humans when he have a bad case of colitis, we are instructed to eat more soft bland foods until our digestive system heals. Personally, Jett does NOT do well on a grain free diet. I've tried. I agree it's better, but some dogs just nees some grains and I finally accepted this after much discussion with my 'go to person' at Animal Essentials. Since Darcy's case is so mild, why not try first of all, since it's the easiest and the cheapest, a Limited Diet (one carb. and 1 protien) CANNED and probiotics. If that works, I'd wait several months to make sure his digestive system is completely healed and then if you want to switch him to something else, you can try. I had Jett on a canned limited diet and probiotics for a very long time and then switched him over to Dr. Harvey's Canine Mix. I've tried a few times the Veg-to-Bowl, but he doesn't do as well on it. I know you are working full time and home cooking takes time. So if you want to go that route but it seems a bit overwhelming, you can try Dr. Harvey's. I rteally can't say Jett has any signs of IBS anymore. He can pretty much eat anything now, raw veggies, raw fruits, various treats with no trouble. Which he never could before. The only thing his system can't tolerate is raw meat. Which is ok by me because I'm really questioning feeding raw anymore.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

actually soy is what my two eat and are doing excellent on it so i would question the inflammatory on the soy diet -- now they are on hydrolized soy so that could be the difference but my ibd and my colitis dog once on this food it calmed their intestinal issues down immediately. Also my ibd dog can handle white rice but not white potato so have to say ibd dogs do better on rice just NOT brown rice way better than white potato. 


QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 22 2009, 09:19 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832618


> Grains cause a lot of digestion issues in dogs. Though they are omnivores, their main diet always consisted of meat. Grains mess with their skin and their digestion. Grains are:
> wheat
> rice
> corn
> ...


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## lawgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

*First, THANK YOU so much to every devoted, knowledgeable mom who posted in response to my question! I honestly do not know what I would do without your valuable advice and support here on SM.* I've learned so much health and behavior information from you, drawn from both your personal experiences over the years as well as the extensive research you've done as concerned dog parents. So, please accept my sincerest gratitude for helping me feel more in control of Darcy's dietary problem.

:ThankYou: 

*Update*: My vet gave me a sample of the W/D on Monday, so for the past few days, I have been mixing the recommended feeding dose with a spoonful of Merrick wet food (to make it palatable, since Darcy prefers to go hungry rather than eat dry kibble!). Since this switch, his poop has indeed firmed up into a lighter (less dense, more air-filled, sorry if that's way TMI), honey-mustard colored, hard consistency. It is now dry enough to pick up without leaving the dreaded streaks! (He poops considerably more: about 2x or 3x as much poop comes out now, in thrilling episodic spurts during our walks. No wonder, given that the Hill's W/D contains 12.4% crude fiber with all that indigestible cellulose.)

I would love to home-cook for Darcy, knowing how successful many of you have been with this strategy, but with my starting work at the law firm soon, I truly won't have enough time. (I can barely manage to feed myself home-cooked meals.)

Based on all your suggestions, I'm going to keep him on the W/D for a month or two and _wait for his intestines to heal and the inflammation to go down_. After that time, I would like to slowly transition him to a good-quality, Limited Ingredient, lower-protein food that many of you have had great results with--such as the Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Venison (4% fiber, so I may need to add a supplement), or the Wellness Healthy Weight (8% fiber).

*Good news*: at Darcy's vet visit, he had both a fecal float and a complete blood panel (Idexx Chem 21). His liver enzymes had been elevated during his pre-neuter bloodwork in early August, so I was concerned about a potential liver problem. Thankfully, all the bloodwork (as well as the fecal sample) came back perfectly healthy this time--so I am really jubilant that we don't have a genetic liver disease. artytime: 

*Some individual thanks and responses:*

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Sep 21 2009, 09:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832511


> I know how you feel! When Lady was diagnosed with diabetes almost eight years ago, my vet recommended Hills W/D. I came home with a case of the canned, but never finished it. It made no sense to me why you would feed an immune compromised dog such low grade ingredients. The kibble actually contains peanut hulls for fiber, floor sweepings with no nutritional value. :thmbdn:
> 
> You can actually add fiber yourself with Benefiber.[/B]


Hi, LadysMom: have you tried Benefiber with Lady? If it works well, I would like to add some kind of fiber to Darcy's non-Rx food down the road.

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Sep 21 2009, 09:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832512


> My first Malt, Rosebud, had mucousy stool for the longest time. We tried every food imaginable... I kept a log of the food and the consistency of her poop... I got so discouraged. Finally we tried WD canned and it was like a miracle! She had firm stool for the rest of her life.[/B]


K/C Mom: That is really encouraging, and really makes me feel a lot better about having Darcy stabilize his intestines on the W/D! If it worked so well for Rosebud, I feel that I don't need to be as worried about the quality.

A pet food owner I spoke with today back in NYC told me that although Hill's does use chicken by-products, the by-products are organs such as liver and heart, and are not the horrible kinds (chicken feet, hooves, etc.) that give commercial foods the bad reputation. This was a source of comfort as well.

QUOTE (momtoboo @ Sep 21 2009, 10:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832527


> The vet put Boo on Hills W/M after he had pancreatitis. It is the lowfat prescription. I didn't like the ingredients either. I fed it to Hannah too,just to finish the bag. They both pooped stinky poo & twice as much of it.Hannah had gas & Boo seemed to always be hungry. I switched back to Natural Balance, the reduced calorie variety.Now I feed them the NB sweet potato & venison formula for breakfast & the NB reduced calorie for dinner.[/B]


momtoboo: Thank you for the recommendation for NB. It's #1 on my list of non-Rx foods right now because several people have cited it as a successful food to feed!

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 21 2009, 10:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832541


> Have you done any GI bloodwork like a TLI panel? Lacy had that done and had low folate and cobalamine levels. We changed her diet and gave Tylosin for a little over a month and vitamin B injections weekly for a while. I was also giving proenzymes for a while but stopped.[/B]


MyFairLacy: Great idea on the bloodwork--thankfully, Darcy's came back all normal. :clap: 

QUOTE (Coconuts @ Sep 21 2009, 10:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832542


> I have to use Science Diet L/D with Coconut because she has to have a low protein diet and I haven't found any other food that has low enough protein. Wish I could though because I think that some of the ingredients in the Hills food is making her scratch. But ever since she started the Hills food her blood work has been perfect so that is why I stuck with it. Her poop is firm and doesn't have a smell either.[/B]


Coconuts: This is really encouraging to hear! Part of the reason so many of us are worried about the pet food industry stems back to the massive dog and cat food recalls and melamine-related poisoning from a few years back. Ever since then, I am so wary of any poorly sourced ingredients, and that's why I was so worried when I saw the makeup of Hill's.

QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Sep 21 2009, 11:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832553


> When my Missy was dx with diabetes she was put on the WD ... At the time she also had a full blood panel done and several things were off. My main goal was to get het to good regulation and I trusted my vet. Missy regulated pretty quickly and maintained that to her last day. [...] Presently Quincy has been on WD mixed into his other food. [...] I found that I only have to add about 1/4 c. of Wd to his Chicken Soup for dog lovers soul" and it gives him good solid stool.
> 
> I will say now if either got diabetes I'd go with the WD in a heartbeat as it really does a great job with the insulin to get those high BG numbers into good range realtively quickly and with diabetes the sooner the better.[...] I think there are times when it is more important to give what gets the pooch needs to where the 'issue' is resolved.[/B]


Maidto2Maltese: That's fantastic that the W/D helped normalize Missy's blood levels! Do you happen to know what the mechanism in W/D is for insulin-regulation? The Hill's website is cryptic about explaining what all those "z/d," "i/d," "w/d" acronyms stand for and how their ingredients actually work on a medical condition. I'd be really glad to know what's behind this blood-normalizing result in W/D--and whether other non-Rx foods have a similar formula/efficacy?

QUOTE (Kissi's Mom @ Sep 22 2009, 02:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832574


> Kissi was diagnosed with IBD at just over 1 year old. [...] She ended up suggesting NB duck and potato (grain free)...I tried it and
> Kissi has had no meds for probably 4/5 months and only 1 or 2 very slight flare ups ....don't know if this might help you but it sure did help Kissi.[/B]


Linda: Thank you for the NB recommendation! I'm so glad to hear that you found a solution: I hope it works for my dog too when I transition to NB limited ingredient food.

QUOTE (princessre @ Sep 22 2009, 08:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832596


> Casanova had GI problems and got totally back on track with white fish and veggies. Fish is very anti-inflammatory and I highly recommend this to get your baby back to health. Once he's healthy again, he might be able to eat anything. That's what happened with us-- Casanova has an iron stomach now, but we still home cook because we've seen the difference in energy level and health.[/B]


princessre: That's incredible--I thought that GI issues would be a lifelong condition, but it seems Casanova has regained intestinal strength. Do you think this is something that heals and goes away? I'm hoping that this will happen for Darcy on the W/D. If all else fails I will start a home-cooked diet.

QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 22 2009, 11:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832645


> Grain free is great for some dogs, but other dogs thrive on a diet that includes more carbs and grains. Dogs who need more fiber tend to do better on diets with grain. Each dog is an individual and should be treated as such IMO.[/B]


JMM: Thank you for your always helpful and on-point feedback. Based on the range of experiences here, I think it's true that some dogs do tend to do better long-term on a diet that is lower protein and has some grains. I hope Darcy stays healthy with normal bloodwork despite the W/D addition of corn and gluten to his diet. Are these ingredients I should be worried about long-term?

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 22 2009, 11:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832657


> ok here is my take as my dex has ibd in small intestines and only vomits and ibd in large intestines is diarhea - now what i think your dog has is not necessarily ibd as it was brought on by a stressful situation the neuter so I personally think your dog has colitis as colitis is not easy to get rid off as i found when dee dee got it after metacam incident. Let me ask you this after the spay what med were you given? Was it rimadyl, deramax or metacam?[/B]


dwerten: You're most likely right about the Rimadyl--Darcy had mucousy stool after begin on Rimadyl for the first 2-3 days immediately following his neuter, and the mucous disappeared after I stopped his pain meds. I hope this doesn't have a long-term effect on him. The Purina HA with hydrolyzed soy protein also looks like it could be good, so if the non-Rx foods cause a return of the mushy poo, I will ask my vet about a long-term strategy. Thank you so much for your helpful info.


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## lawgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Sep 22 2009, 01:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=832688


> My Jett came to me with SEVERE IBS. For over 4 months he had mucusy/runny diarrhea several times a day. He could only eat chicken and rice. When I tried to add even 1-2 pieces of kibble into his diet, it was explosive diarrhea. Multiple butt baths a day and twice emg. sub q fluids due to dehydration until I got smart and kept unflavored pedialyte in my pantry and syringed that into his mouth during really bad episodes. We were about to do the biopsy to check for IBD, but that's when I discovered Probiotics and SOFT food as recommended by by 'go to person' at Animal Essentials. Within 24 hours he was on half chicken and rice and half of his soft food and within 3 days totally on soft food. Talk about a miracle! If Darcy is having any type of colitis, IBS, etc... keep him on soft food. Just like we humans when he have a bad case of colitis, we are instructed to eat more soft bland foods until our digestive system heals. Personally, Jett does NOT do well on a grain free diet. I've tried. I agree it's better, but some dogs just nees some grains and I finally accepted this after much discussion with my 'go to person' at Animal Essentials. Since Darcy's case is so mild, why not try first of all, since it's the easiest and the cheapest, a Limited Diet (one carb. and 1 protien) CANNED and probiotics. If that works, I'd wait several months to make sure his digestive system is completely healed and then if you want to switch him to something else, you can try.[/B]


Hi, Crystal&Zoe's mom: The explosive diarrhea sounds like such a cleaning nightmare! I'm really glad Jett is doing well--he has the most endearing, quirky smile I've ever seen, and his pictures are some of my favorites. Right now the W/D dry food is helping firm up Darcy's poop, but I agree that I would prefer to mix in some canned food always (that's what you meant by soft food, right?). I'm going to be trying the Natural Balance Limited Ingredient canned & dry foods mixed together, after the W/D works its magic. Thanks so much again for your help.


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