# Twelve Week Rule for Puppies Update



## vjw

I've been researching to find out the origin of the twelve week rule so I can find out exactly why this rule "used to be" recommended. And yes, I know there's a few organizations who still have the outdated twelve week articles online. 



I'm pretty sure I know who was responsible for teaching and publishing some of the original articles regarding the rule, however I don't know why as of yet. 

The person who mostly likely started the ball rolling with the twelve week rule now states "things have changed" and that this is an "old school" way of thinking. I tried to contact this person via an organization they used to work with and here's some of the edited reply when an emloyee of that organization contacted this person.: 






*"________ said that the particular handout in question was written several years ago, at a time when 12 weeks was the recommendation. Things have since changed, and we are at a point where we need to update some of our behavior handouts from the “old school” ways of thinking. We will be taking on this task as time and staffing allows. *






Joy





For the new SM members:

Twelve Week Rule Post


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## LamborghiniGirl

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 11:12 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800426


> I've been researching to find out the origin of the twelve week rule so I can find out exactly why this rule "used to be" recommended. And yes, I know there's a few organizations who still have the outdated twelve week articles online.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure I know who was responsible for teaching and publishing some of the original articles regarding the rule, however I don't know why as of yet.
> 
> The person who mostly likely started the ball rolling with the twelve week rule now states "things have changed" and that this is an "old school" way of thinking. I tried to contact this person via an organization they used to work with and here's some of the edited reply when an emloyee of that organization contacted this person.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"________ said that the particular handout in question was written several years ago, at a time when 12 weeks was the recommendation. Things have since changed, and we are at a point where we need to update some of our behavior handouts from the “old school” ways of thinking. We will be taking on this task as time and staffing allows. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the new SM members:
> 
> Twelve Week Rule Post[/B]


Not sure if you could tell from their response- but do you think the 'rule' will be elongated to more than 12 weeks or shortened to less than 12 weeks?


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## littlemissy

Interesting. I still somewhat believe the toy breeds develop slower after birth than medium to larger breed dogs socially, emotionally and physically. I would not bring home a pup less than two pounds in weight and many maltese are less than that before twelve weeks. I will be interested to hear more on this in the future.


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## bellaratamaltese

Thank you for sharing these, Joy.

It still does not make me even the slightest bit inclined to let a puppy go before 12 weeks, however.


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## theboyz

Wow Joy!!! I hope they are saying that the Toys should be older than 12 weeks to go to their new homes.

I have watched Jennifer's ( Olive Tree Maltese ) pups and can say from 10 weeks on it makes such a difference to be with mom and sisters and brothers. The longer with family the more socialized and ready to go. To me it is amazing the difference in personality the longer they can stay with the breeder. (I do mean good breeders that care about their pups!).
Jennifer keeps her pups 12 weeks or longer.

Very interesting to watch this, thanks for posting.


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## Cosy

Who's going to administer help to an 8 week old pup in a blood sugar drop when the owner is at work or shopping?
Most breeders are home with their pups all day watching over them. This, to me, is worth the 12 week rule right
there. I don't see any testimony on toy (yorkie, chi's, maltese) dogs and how they do at that stage. I would never
compare a german sheperd pup to a maltese pup. Of all the maltese pups I've had over the years I never had an
8 week old that fetched. LOL! They might run off with a little ball but they most likely will not bring it back. LOL
Very selfish little critters at that stage!


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## vjw

QUOTE (LamborghiniGirl @ Jul 3 2009, 11:47 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800445


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 11:12 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800426





> I've been researching to find out the origin of the twelve week rule so I can find out exactly why this rule "used to be" recommended. And yes, I know there's a few organizations who still have the outdated twelve week articles online.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure I know who was responsible for teaching and publishing some of the original articles regarding the rule, however I don't know why as of yet.
> 
> The person who mostly likely started the ball rolling with the twelve week rule now states "things have changed" and that this is an "old school" way of thinking. I tried to contact this person via an organization they used to work with and here's some of the edited reply when an emloyee of that organization contacted this person.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"________ said that the particular handout in question was written several years ago, at a time when 12 weeks was the recommendation. Things have since changed, and we are at a point where we need to update some of our behavior handouts from the “old school” ways of thinking. We will be taking on this task as time and staffing allows. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the new SM members:
> 
> Twelve Week Rule Post[/B]


Not sure if you could tell from their response- but do you think the 'rule' will be elongated to more than 12 weeks or shortened to less than 12 weeks?
[/B][/QUOTE]



I think they're going to go with less than twelve weeks. Here's what the veterinary behaviorists are recommending:


Link to ABRI's site


Link to AVSAB's site




Joy


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## vjw

QUOTE (littlemissy @ Jul 3 2009, 11:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800447


> Interesting. I still somewhat believe the toy breeds develop slower after birth than medium to larger breed dogs socially, emotionally and physically. I would not bring home a pup less than two pounds in weight and many maltese are less than that before twelve weeks. I will be interested to hear more on this in the future.[/B]




If you'll google toy breeds versus large breed maturation/matures, you'll find a whole bunch of sources that say that small breeds mature faster than large breeds.



Joy


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## vjw

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jul 3 2009, 12:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800473


> Who's going to administer help to an 8 week old pup in a blood sugar drop when the owner is at work or shopping?
> Most breeders are home with their pups all day watching over them. This, to me, is worth the 12 week rule right
> there. I don't see any testimony on toy (yorkie, chi's, maltese) dogs and how they do at that stage. I would never
> compare a german sheperd pup to a maltese pup. Of all the maltese pups I've had over the years I never had an
> 8 week old that fetched. LOL! They might run off with a little ball but they most likely will not bring it back. LOL
> Very selfish little critters at that stage![/B]





Brit, I visited Karli at 7-8 weeks and she was fetching a ball at that age. I think that depends on the training/socialization/temperament of the pup. Gosh there's tons of large breeds dogs that don't fetch. If you'll research guide dog organizations, "fetching" is one of the tests they used to use to test the dogs. (I haven't looked this up recently)If the dog doesn't fetch, the dog doesn't make it into the guide dog program.

I agree there's a risk of hypoglycemia with any small dog but that risk doesn't end at twelve weeks. For instance, from some of the articles I've read, they're still at a risk at sixteen weeks.

My whole issue with the twelve week rule is from a behavioral standpoint and I think they're now saying there's more bonding and less behavioral issues if the new owner acquires the puppy and takes the puppy to puppy classes before the critical period is over.



Joy


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## Vanitysmom

Oh geeezzzz.....here we go again :beating a dead horse: 

Below are some links to articles written by animial behaviorists and trainers who actually *specialize* in toy breeds. 

Professional Dog Trainer Melanie Schlaginhaufen - http://www.knowingdogs.com/Images/Choosing...Your_Family.pdf (see #8)

Small Dogs, Big Hearts By Darlene Arden an internationally recognized authority on Toy dogs and their care, and a Certified Animal Behavior Consultant. 
(see page 15) http://books.google.com/books?id=P9nNsmjbG...result#PPA40

A Good Breeder by TD Yandt a noted animal trainer http://www.noselicks.com/pb/wp_bf41505f/wp_bf41505f.html
CanineDimensions.com, Dog Obedience Training, Dog Training Specialists http://www.caninedimensions.com/dog-owners-mistake.cfm (see #9)

American Kennel Club - http://www.akc.org/press_center/akc_syndic...sk_AKC/0607.cfm "Every breeder has their own opinion about when the best time to let their puppies go to their new homes. Some go earlier and others go later. But the general rule of thumb is that puppies should go to their new homes in the 8-to-12 week-old age range. Toy breeds which are smaller than most dogs and very fragile at an early age usually stay with the breeder past 8 weeks. It is also important to note that most states have age requirements, usually 8 weeks, before puppies can be sold to the public." 


I so hope that this helps :smilie_tischkante:


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## jmm

Based on my personal experience raising litters and helping raise/evaluate litters, I believe in treating each litter as an individual. I've seen some border collie pups mature very slowly and stay till 10 weeks. I had huge Chi X pups recently that were more than ready at 8 weeks. In general, my experience has agreed with small breed dogs maturing more slowly than larger ones. 

My personal preference for Malt pups is 16+ weeks. I've only had one at 12 weeks, and the older pups had a much better adjustment. That said, the older ones came from excellent breeders who socialized them well and separated them from their littermates appropriately. I truly believe that 8 weeks, 12 weeks, or 16 weeks it depends on having a breeder who puts an effort into socializing the dogs. Excellent socialization and getting an older puppy has no detriments IMO. 

I think regardless of any behaviorist recommendations, I will stick with older pups that have received excellent socialization. I do not feel that is a detriment, even to working ability.


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## vjw

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 01:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800496


> Oh geeezzzz.....here we go again :beating a dead horse:
> 
> Below are some links to articles written by animial behaviorists and trainers who actually *specialize* in toy breeds.
> 
> Professional Dog Trainer Melanie Schlaginhaufen - http://www.knowingdogs.com/Images/Choosing...Your_Family.pdf (see #8)
> 
> Small Dogs, Big Hearts By Darlene Arden an internationally recognized authority on Toy dogs and their care, and a Certified Animal Behavior Consultant.
> (see page 15) http://books.google.com/books?id=P9nNsmjbG...result#PPA40
> 
> A Good Breeder by TD Yandt a noted animal trainer http://www.noselicks.com/pb/wp_bf41505f/wp_bf41505f.html
> CanineDimensions.com, Dog Obedience Training, Dog Training Specialists http://www.caninedimensions.com/dog-owners-mistake.cfm (see #9)
> 
> American Kennel Club - http://www.akc.org/press_center/akc_syndic...sk_AKC/0607.cfm "Every breeder has their own opinion about when the best time to let their puppies go to their new homes. Some go earlier and others go later. But the general rule of thumb is that puppies should go to their new homes in the 8-to-12 week-old age range. Toy breeds which are smaller than most dogs and very fragile at an early age usually stay with the breeder past 8 weeks. It is also important to note that most states have age requirements, usually 8 weeks, before puppies can be sold to the public."
> 
> 
> I so hope that this helps :smilie_tischkante:[/B]







No that really doesn't help much as I know there are some "old school" thought still out there.


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 10:27 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800496


> Oh geeezzzz.....here we go again :beating a dead horse:
> 
> Below are some links to articles written by animial behaviorists and trainers who actually *specialize* in toy breeds.
> 
> Professional Dog Trainer Melanie Schlaginhaufen - http://www.knowingdogs.com/Images/Choosing...Your_Family.pdf (see #8)
> 
> Small Dogs, Big Hearts By Darlene Arden an internationally recognized authority on Toy dogs and their care, and a Certified Animal Behavior Consultant.
> (see page 15) http://books.google.com/books?id=P9nNsmjbG...result#PPA40
> 
> A Good Breeder by TD Yandt a noted animal trainer http://www.noselicks.com/pb/wp_bf41505f/wp_bf41505f.html
> CanineDimensions.com, Dog Obedience Training, Dog Training Specialists http://www.caninedimensions.com/dog-owners-mistake.cfm (see #9)
> 
> American Kennel Club - http://www.akc.org/press_center/akc_syndic...sk_AKC/0607.cfm "Every breeder has their own opinion about when the best time to let their puppies go to their new homes. Some go earlier and others go later. But the general rule of thumb is that puppies should go to their new homes in the 8-to-12 week-old age range. Toy breeds which are smaller than most dogs and very fragile at an early age usually stay with the breeder past 8 weeks. It is also important to note that most states have age requirements, usually 8 weeks, before puppies can be sold to the public."
> 
> 
> I so hope that this helps :smilie_tischkante:[/B]


LOL. I like your use of emoticons. Very... appropriate. Even though I haven't had many litters, after each one, my belief that the 12 week rule is the appropriate one is reinforced.


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## Vanitysmom

Jackie,

I absolutely agree with what you say.

I posted the links above because Joy does not recognize personal experience as a qualifier for knowledge when it pertains to our dogs and what ages they should leave.


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 10:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800503


> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 01:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800496





> Oh geeezzzz.....here we go again :beating a dead horse:
> 
> Below are some links to articles written by animial behaviorists and trainers who actually *specialize* in toy breeds.
> 
> Professional Dog Trainer Melanie Schlaginhaufen - http://www.knowingdogs.com/Images/Choosing...Your_Family.pdf (see #8)
> 
> Small Dogs, Big Hearts By Darlene Arden an internationally recognized authority on Toy dogs and their care, and a Certified Animal Behavior Consultant.
> (see page 15) http://books.google.com/books?id=P9nNsmjbG...result#PPA40
> 
> A Good Breeder by TD Yandt a noted animal trainer http://www.noselicks.com/pb/wp_bf41505f/wp_bf41505f.html
> CanineDimensions.com, Dog Obedience Training, Dog Training Specialists http://www.caninedimensions.com/dog-owners-mistake.cfm (see #9)
> 
> American Kennel Club - http://www.akc.org/press_center/akc_syndic...sk_AKC/0607.cfm "Every breeder has their own opinion about when the best time to let their puppies go to their new homes. Some go earlier and others go later. But the general rule of thumb is that puppies should go to their new homes in the 8-to-12 week-old age range. Toy breeds which are smaller than most dogs and very fragile at an early age usually stay with the breeder past 8 weeks. It is also important to note that most states have age requirements, usually 8 weeks, before puppies can be sold to the public."
> 
> 
> I so hope that this helps :smilie_tischkante:[/B]







No that really doesn't help much as I know there are some "old school" thought still out there.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Joy,

how many litters and individual puppies have you raised? I appreciate your taking the time to help educate, but honestly? None of these articles will help sway my decision making in when to let a puppy go. I strongly feel that the 12 week rule is the appropriate one and I usually wind up keeping pups until 14-18 weeks. That is based on personal experience (albeit not _much_ experience, it's still experience) and I could care less if it's old school or new school. 

Dumping an 8 week old puppy on someone seems a bit unfair, IMO. At least the puppies i've had when they are 8 weeks old. 

On this subject, i think we can all agree to disagree.


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## vjw

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jul 3 2009, 12:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800473


> Who's going to administer help to an 8 week old pup in a blood sugar drop when the owner is at work or shopping?
> Most breeders are home with their pups all day watching over them. This, to me, is worth the 12 week rule right
> there. I don't see any testimony on toy (yorkie, chi's, maltese) dogs and how they do at that stage. I would never
> compare a german sheperd pup to a maltese pup. Of all the maltese pups I've had over the years I never had an
> 8 week old that fetched. LOL! They might run off with a little ball but they most likely will not bring it back. LOL
> Very selfish little critters at that stage![/B]



Brit, I just had another thought about this. I have a copy of what I think is one of the original articles and the content wasn't about the risk of hypoglycemia or the physical maturity of the puppy. The article addresses BEHAVIOR. In fact, this article is for all puppies, not just small breeds.



Here's a couple of paragraphs from that early "old school of thought" article:



_Puppies are usually weaned at six or seven weeks, but are still learning important skills as their
mother gradually leaves them more and more. Ideally, puppies should stay with their
littermates (or other role-model dogs) for at least 12 weeks.


Puppies separated from their littermates too early often don’t develop appropriate “social
skills,” such as learning how to send and receive signals, what an “inhibited bite” means, how
far to go in play wrestling and so forth. Play is important to help puppies increase their
physical coordination, social skills and learning limits. Interacting with their mother and
littermates helps them learn “how to be a dog” and is also a way to explore ranking (“who’s
in charge”)._


I find this interesting in light of what the veterinary behaviorists are now recommending.



Joy


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 01:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800503


> No that really doesn't help much as I know there are some "old school" thought still out there.[/B]


"Old school" thought used to say to place any and all puppies at 7 weeks old.................we all now know that that was wrong for any sized breed plus it is actually illegal in many states


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## littlemissy

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 11:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800477


> QUOTE (littlemissy @ Jul 3 2009, 11:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800447





> Interesting. I still somewhat believe the toy breeds develop slower after birth than medium to larger breed dogs socially, emotionally and physically. I would not bring home a pup less than two pounds in weight and many maltese are less than that before twelve weeks. I will be interested to hear more on this in the future.[/B]




If you'll google toy breeds versus large breed maturation/matures, you'll find a whole bunch of sources that say that small breeds mature faster than large breeds.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

The sources haven't met any toy dog I ever had (I love them dearly but they do take longer to mature and learn all the basics than say my child hood dog- a medium sized dog) and thats all I have had my entire adult life- toy breeds :huh: Setting aside my own opinions, health wise I agree with Brit about risk of hypoglycemia in sending home a maltese that is on the smaller side of the standard before 12 weeks would be greatly increased.


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## Cosy

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 12:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800508


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Jul 3 2009, 12:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800473





> Who's going to administer help to an 8 week old pup in a blood sugar drop when the owner is at work or shopping?
> Most breeders are home with their pups all day watching over them. This, to me, is worth the 12 week rule right
> there. I don't see any testimony on toy (yorkie, chi's, maltese) dogs and how they do at that stage. I would never
> compare a german sheperd pup to a maltese pup. Of all the maltese pups I've had over the years I never had an
> 8 week old that fetched. LOL! They might run off with a little ball but they most likely will not bring it back. LOL
> Very selfish little critters at that stage![/B]



Brit, I just had another thought about this. I have a copy of what I think is one of the original articles and the content wasn't about the risk of hypoglycemia or the physical maturity of the puppy. The article addresses BEHAVIOR. In fact, this article is for all puppies, not just small breeds.



Here's a couple of paragraphs from that early "old school of thought" article:



_Puppies are usually weaned at six or seven weeks, but are still learning important skills as their
mother gradually leaves them more and more. Ideally, puppies should stay with their
littermates (or other role-model dogs) for at least 12 weeks.


Puppies separated from their littermates too early often don’t develop appropriate “social
skills,” such as learning how to send and receive signals, what an “inhibited bite” means, how
far to go in play wrestling and so forth. Play is important to help puppies increase their
physical coordination, social skills and learning limits. Interacting with their mother and
littermates helps them learn “how to be a dog” and is also a way to explore ranking (“who’s
in charge”)._


I find this interesting in light of what the veterinary behaviorists are now recommending.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

All I can say, Joy, is give me that "old school" mentality anyday. I was making light of the fetch thing, but
I do know fear or flight falls in that time frame and pups do need their mother to teach them. I've had maltese
from birth, bought maltese at 12 weeks, even 8 months and finally Cosy at 5 months. I see the differences
in those ages and what they learn at different stages. Yes, pups can have sugar drops after 12 weeks, but
the stress of a new home is lessened after 12 weeks due to all they've learned with their mother. Stress can
lead to sugar drops too. All in all, I would have to say there is more evidence it is safer and more beneficial
to pups being kept until 12 weeks before entering a new home.


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## Cosy

Oh, and as for bonding........I've had Cosy since she was 5 months old. If we were anymore bonded
I might very well lose my mind. I can't even go to the bathroom without her following me! LOL


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## jmm

Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jul 3 2009, 02:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800513


> Oh, and as for bonding........I've had Cosy since she was 5 months old. If we were anymore bonded
> I might very well lose my mind. I can't even go to the bathroom without her following me! LOL[/B]


I adopted Lady at 4.5 years old and we couldn't be any more bonded if I had given birth to her myself!


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537


> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.


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## MandyMc65

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546


> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 02:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537


> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


Stacy,

My puppies are usually still belly crawling at 3 weeks. I always let mom do the weaning since I truly believe she knows the right time better than I do, however, puppies are usually transitioning between mom and being weaned between 7 and 9 weeks old. Under these circumstances with the new vaccination protocol, my puppies usually get their first puppy shot at around 10 weeks old. In fact, I just returned from taking my current puppies to the vet for their first shot and checkup.............................they will be 10 weeks old tomorrow.


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## MaryH

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 12:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800480


> Brit, I visited Karli at 7-8 weeks and she was fetching a ball at that age. I think that depends on the training/socialization/temperament of the pup. Gosh there's tons of large breeds dogs that don't fetch. If you'll research guide dog organizations, "fetching" is one of the tests they used to use to test the dogs. (I haven't looked this up recently)If the dog doesn't fetch, the dog doesn't make it into the guide dog program.
> 
> I agree there's a risk of hypoglycemia with any small dog but that risk doesn't end at twelve weeks. For instance, from some of the articles I've read, they're still at a risk at sixteen weeks.
> 
> My whole issue with the twelve week rule is from a behavioral standpoint and I think they're now saying there's more bonding and less behavioral issues if the new owner acquires the puppy and takes the puppy to puppy classes before the critical period is over.
> 
> Joy[/B]


Joy, looking at one particular Maltese puppy and looking at one particular dog owner, I agree with you that there are certain Maltese younger than 12 weeks old who could safely go to certain new owners. But I also agree with the AMA that the 12-week rule in our breed is appropriate on the whole. I liken it in many respects to the drinking age in our country. My state lowered the drinking age in the early '70s to 18. While some 18-year olds (me for one!) acted responsibly, in less than 2 years the age was raised back up to 21 because of the increase in teen drunk-driving related deaths. If the 12-week rule was abolished or lowered I do believe that we would see a major increase in Maltese puppy accidents and deaths.

It is SOOOOO much easier to start teaching a Maltese to retrieve at 6 weeks old rather than even 14 weeks old. I have one who does an awesome retrieve; started at 5 weeks old and hasn't stopped since! I think for anyone who ultimately wants a performance Maltese it is important that you find a puppy who is being socialized, played with and introduced to inducive games by the breeder at a very early age. There are breeders out there who are doing that or who would be willing to do that for you while the puppy is maturing.

As for bonding and behavioral issues, it's about environment AND genetics. Personally, while I can't change the genetic piece of it, if I felt that the environment in which the puppy was being raised was not conducive to developing good social and behavioral skills then I'd be looking for a different breeder.

MaryH


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jul 3 2009, 03:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800544


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Jul 3 2009, 02:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800513





> Oh, and as for bonding........I've had Cosy since she was 5 months old. If we were anymore bonded
> I might very well lose my mind. I can't even go to the bathroom without her following me! LOL[/B]


I adopted Lady at 4.5 years old and *we couldn't be any more bonded if I had given birth to her myself!
*[/B][/QUOTE]


LOL ~ Marj :HistericalSmiley: 

I agree. I've had so many come, and go. Age did not matter with the bonding. In fact, the older they are, the more they bond.

Good heavens, Raul, Gulliver, and Coby, are glued to me. Not to mention my Daisy girl. They are all seniors, and only with me for a day,
before they are stuck to me. Winter was 3-years-old, when he arrived, and was sleeping on my head the first night. 

I'm all for the 12-week-rule. For health reasons, and social puppy skills. As far as the "bonding" part with the new owner, I believe they
bond, rather quickly, at over 12-weeks of age. And yep, I do have experience with Maltese, ranging from 6-weeks to 12-years-old. Many of them.

Once again, the 12-week rule is the way to go, for so many reasons. I don't understand why this rule is such a problem for so many.


----------



## vjw

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800552


> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.
[/B][/QUOTE]



What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks. I'm even more disturbed that most of these new members disappear after their initial introduction. I can't articulate why this matters to me - it's really none of my business. I suppose that I see this forum as having so much more potential if we didn't run all these potential forum members off. 

I will state it once again. As of right now, I haven't been able to find anything from academia to support that 12 week rule. In fact, all of academia state puppies can go to their new homes much earlier than 12 weeks. By academia, I mean veterinary school faculty, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior. These are all organizations whose members are veterinarians. The American Maltese Association is composed of whom?????????? I would guess a variety of occupations, including lay persons.

When it gets to the nitty gritty, I agree that IF the maltese are socialized properly, it doesn't matter what age they go to a new home. I've purchased two VERY socialized and sweet maltese from a non-AMA member (one at 8 weeks, and one at nine weeks) and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I know there's lots of you who have gotten your maltese at a later age and are okay with their dog's behavior. 

I wouldn't think twice about getting another small breed puppy at eight or nine weeks if the puppy was ready. I got Karli at nine weeks and immediately enrolled her in puppy class. By far, she has been the easiest to train and groom than any of the other dogs I've ever had. She will literally lay on her back and go to sleep while I trim her nails and she does all her basic obedience commands with just a hand signal. 

I won't dispute that a dog CAN bond and be trained if you get them later. However, from what I've read from the behaviorists, it's easier and faster if the puppy is acquired and is in the owner's home before that critical/socialization period is over. 

I just think it's only fair that the members of this forum know all angles of thought on the "age to new home" issue and I plan to keep bringing all sides of the topic up as long as I'm a member.



Joy


----------



## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580


> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".


----------



## MaryH

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jul 3 2009, 05:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800578


> LOL ~ Marj :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> I agree. I've had so many come, and go. Age did not matter with the bonding. In fact, the older they are, the more they bond.
> 
> Good heavens, Raul, Gulliver, and Coby, are glued to me. Not to mention my Daisy girl. They are all seniors, and only with me for a day,
> before they are stuck to me. Winter was 3-years-old, when he arrived, and was sleeping on my head the first night.
> 
> I'm all for the 12-week-rule. For health reasons, and social puppy skills. As far as the "bonding" part with the new owner, I believe they
> bond, rather quickly, at over 12-weeks of age. And yep, I do have experience with Maltese, ranging from 6-weeks to 12-years-old. Many of them.
> 
> Once again, the 12-week rule is the way to go, for so many reasons. I don't understand why this rule is such a problem for so many.[/B]


Deb, have you ever had one who wouldn't bond? In all the rescues who have come and gone I've only ever had one who made it clear from day one that he had no interest in me and was not about to change his mind. For six weeks I couldn't get any sort of positive, happy reaction from him and I kept thinking "How on earth will I ever help him find happiness?" Then one day a couple came here to see Teddy. They had just lost their 14 yo Maltese and the husband was heartbroken. I figured this was never going to work because Teddy was as morbid as the husband. They came in and sat down, Teddy barely gave the wife a look but looked at the husband, wagged his tail, jumped up into the husband's lap, curled up and looked at me as much to say "What took you so long to bring a guy back into my life?" It's been eight years, I still get to visit, and I still get the disinterested look.

MaryH


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800584


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks, old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hahaha, I was just coming into this thread to say exactly that. If new members are 'hounded' with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks - than yes, that is an absolutely true statement. But I should clarify, in the united states, no reputable breeder will let their puppies go earlier than 12 weeks. If they do? In my opinion, they should not be considered reputable. 

If it's brought up again, I will continue to agree to disagree with you, LOL.


----------



## vjw

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 05:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800587


> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800584





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks, old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hahaha, I was just coming into this thread to say exactly that. If new members are 'hounded' with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks - than yes, that is an absolutely true statement. But I should clarify, in the united states, no reputable breeder will let their puppies go earlier than 12 weeks. If they do? In my opinion, they should not be considered reputable. 

If it's brought up again, I will continue to agree to disagree with you, LOL.
[/B][/QUOTE]





Just because it's the opinion of a few AMA members and a few wannabes, it doesn't make it a true statement.


Joy


----------



## jmm

Joy, you single out the AMA. Many other toy breeds here in the states have similar guidelines. 

And I pose a question to you. If a pup is being weened at 8 weeks, how appropriate is it to place that dog in a new home?


----------



## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 03:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800595


> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 05:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800587





> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800584





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks, old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hahaha, I was just coming into this thread to say exactly that. If new members are 'hounded' with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks - than yes, that is an absolutely true statement. But I should clarify, in the united states, no reputable breeder will let their puppies go earlier than 12 weeks. If they do? In my opinion, they should not be considered reputable. 

If it's brought up again, I will continue to agree to disagree with you, LOL.
[/B][/QUOTE]





Just because it's the opinion of a few AMA members and a few wannabes, it doesn't make it a true statement.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

this actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that!

Wannabes? Too funny. It's even funnier if you mean me, LMAO


----------



## k/c mom

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 05:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800587


> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800584





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks, old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hahaha, I was just coming into this thread to say exactly that. If new members are 'hounded' with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks - than yes, that is an absolutely true statement. But I should clarify, in the united states, no reputable breeder will let their puppies go earlier than 12 weeks. If they do? In my opinion, they should not be considered reputable. 

If it's brought up again, I will continue to agree to disagree with you, LOL.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, when we read about a puppy that has gone to its new owner at 8 weeks, it is an immediate tip off that the breeder is most likely a BYB. And BYBs are not breeding for the betterment of the breed. So, Joy, when you support your 8-week rule... it does appear that you are supporting BYBs.


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 3 2009, 05:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800585


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jul 3 2009, 05:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800578





> LOL ~ Marj :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> I agree. I've had so many come, and go. Age did not matter with the bonding. In fact, the older they are, the more they bond.
> 
> Good heavens, Raul, Gulliver, and Coby, are glued to me. Not to mention my Daisy girl. They are all seniors, and only with me for a day,
> before they are stuck to me. Winter was 3-years-old, when he arrived, and was sleeping on my head the first night.
> 
> I'm all for the 12-week-rule. For health reasons, and social puppy skills. As far as the "bonding" part with the new owner, I believe they
> bond, rather quickly, at over 12-weeks of age. And yep, I do have experience with Maltese, ranging from 6-weeks to 12-years-old. Many of them.
> 
> Once again, the 12-week rule is the way to go, for so many reasons. I don't understand why this rule is such a problem for so many.[/B]


Deb, have you ever had one who wouldn't bond? In all the rescues who have come and gone I've only ever had one who made it clear from day one that he had no interest in me and was not about to change his mind. For six weeks I couldn't get any sort of positive, happy reaction from him and I kept thinking "How on earth will I ever help him find happiness?" Then one day a couple came here to see Teddy. They had just lost their 14 yo Maltese and the husband was heartbroken. I figured this was never going to work because Teddy was as morbid as the husband. They came in and sat down, Teddy barely gave the wife a look but looked at the husband, wagged his tail, jumped up into the husband's lap, curled up and looked at me as much to say "What took you so long to bring a guy back into my life?" It's been eight years, I still get to visit, and I still get the disinterested look.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Mary ~ That story brought tears to my eyes. Bless his heart. In all my years, I have not dealt with a Maltese who didn't bond immediately.

My Winter, was far too bonded with me. He couldn't stand the other male dogs, but got along fine with the females. He was, actually, scared to death
of my Henry. It was awful. He would stay on the sofa, because he knew Henry could not jump on it. I felt so badly for him.

He attempted to nip at a gal, who drove all the way from Arizona, to adopt him. Well, she didn't want the little guy after that.
I figured he was "approving" his own applications. 

So like you, and your little one, I tried everything to make him comfortable. I felt so badly he just "didn't seem comfortable" and "at home" like the rest
of them.

Over a year later (1 1/2 years) he moved on to Steve, and Peg's, and a lovely couple had lost a doggie, which was much like Winter.
They wanted the same type of personality. So they wanted Winter!! It was amazing. I bawled when I saw the pics, and the updates.

I always told Winter, "you're an ass, but you're my ass". Gosh, I miss him. 

You know, Mary, there is a perfect home for every dog, huh? Sometimes not with us, but we try to give them a good life until the perfect home
comes along. 

Bless Teddy's heart. That is soooo cool. :chili:


----------



## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 06:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800595


> [Just because it's the opinion of a few AMA members and a few wannabes, it doesn't make it a true statement.
> Joy[/B]


Actually, most all of the "reputable" toy breeders in the US do follow the 12 week rule :biggrin: I do know that several of the national toy breed clubs also have the 12 week rule in their code of ethics. With so many of the national toy breed clubs recommending 12 weeks old........common sense tells one that there must be a pretty good reason. :thumbsup:


----------



## vjw

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jul 3 2009, 06:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800601


> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 05:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800587





> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800584





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks, old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hahaha, I was just coming into this thread to say exactly that. If new members are 'hounded' with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks - than yes, that is an absolutely true statement. But I should clarify, in the united states, no reputable breeder will let their puppies go earlier than 12 weeks. If they do? In my opinion, they should not be considered reputable. 

If it's brought up again, I will continue to agree to disagree with you, LOL.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, when we read about a puppy that has gone to its new owner at 8 weeks, it is an immediate tip off that the breeder is a BYB. And BYBs are not breeding for the betterment of the breed. So, Joy, when you support your 8-week rule... it does appear that you are supporting BYBs.
[/B][/QUOTE]





It is not "MY" 8 week rule. I'm simply trying to say that there's a discrepancy between what the AMA rule and what veterinary organizations are saying. If the AMA or other small breed organizations have a problem with that, then they need to address this with the veterinary organizations. 

I have a feeling some of the organizations got their twelve week rules from the "old school" article which was published a few years ago and was the subject of today's post. I will state again that this article is still on certain organizations websites and when the person who I believe is the author was asked for the reasoning behind the rule, they gave the statement in my first post.




Joy


----------



## MaryH

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 06:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800595


> Just because it's the opinion of a few AMA members and a few wannabes, it doesn't make it a true statement.
> 
> 
> Joy[/B]


Joy,

The AMA Code of Ethics was reviewed and revised in 2007. I am a member of the Governing Documents Committee that reviewed and drafted the revisions to our Code of Ethics. We received a request at that time to revisit the 12-week rule. There was discussion at the committee level, at the Board level, and among AMA members. While there may be only a few AMA members expressing opinions on this forum, the 12-week rule was left in place because *an overwhelming majority of AMA members who took part in the discussions felt that it was in the best interest of our breed*. "Just because it's the opinion of a few AMA members ...." is not a true statement.

MaryH


----------



## Vanitysmom

Joy,
I have to wonder why every couple of months you bring up the 12 week rule. Each time you quote this academia and that academia but refuse to even listen to years of experience that has involved countless toy dog breeders. :blink: I have even given you links to sources by renowned Toy Breed Behaviorists and Specialists since you put so much precedence on academia.  

If you were a member on my forum I would be wondering if you were doing it just to get a reaction :w00t:


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 06:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800597


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 03:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800595





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 05:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800587





> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800584





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks, old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hahaha, I was just coming into this thread to say exactly that. If new members are 'hounded' with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks - than yes, that is an absolutely true statement. But I should clarify, in the united states, no reputable breeder will let their puppies go earlier than 12 weeks. If they do? In my opinion, they should not be considered reputable. 

If it's brought up again, I will continue to agree to disagree with you, LOL.
[/B][/QUOTE]





Just because it's the opinion of a few AMA members and a few wannabes, it doesn't make it a true statement.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

this actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that!

Wannabes? Too funny. It's even funnier if you mean me, LMAO
[/B][/QUOTE]

Stacy ~ I'm not sure why Joy is so he** bent on this issue. And, although, I'm not a breeder, my Rescues, and yes,
I've had many puppies, thru the years, will not leave before 12-weeks. 

And yep, you're right. Reputable breeders, in the US, conform to the AMA rules, as most toy breed clubs do.
If not, this is a definate red flag, and chances are a BYB. Well, I won't get into what I think of BYB's, nor those who,
knowingly support them.


----------



## Cosy

I think it's also important to note vets are not usually breeders and therefore lack the hands-on experience that
good breeders do have. Not all vets go along with the younger rule for small dogs, at least not the ones
I've dealt with over the years. Some have asked what I thought and thought it made sense. 

I believe many BYBs as well as millers let them go earlier because they don't want to clean up after them...including washing beeeehinds
and worrying about who is eating and who isn't. Breeders often work with pups who don't eat well at first and
need to be fed one to one to get them on the right track. Once they get this attention they take off, but you won't see
that with breeders who let them go upon weaning. When the owner has to deal with it and consequently sugar
drops it is stressful for both pupster and owner. It's not something I'd want my pup to go through.

As for newcomers with pups 8 weeks old, I think it's only fair that we let them know what they may be in for due to
their breeder letting them go at such an early age. For those that don't come back, they don't want to learn, obviously.
Chances are they would find something else to leave over in time as well.

One of the real benefits of this board is the learning factor. Yes, we love pics and jokes and getting to know one 
another, but learning about pups needs, illnesses, rescues and their problems is truly what the maltese lover
is about as well. Just as you post your findings of academia on the rule, we, who believe the 12 week rule is
still valid will continue to post also.


----------



## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 06:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800608


> I have a feeling some of the organizations got their twelve week rules from the "old school" article which was published a few years ago and was the subject of today's post. I will state again that this article is still on certain organizations websites and when the person who I believe is the author was asked for the reasoning behind the rule, they gave the statement in my first post.
> Joy[/B]


If I am remembering correctly, when I joined the AMA in 1994 their code of ethics already contained the 12 week rule. I do not remember when that particular Code of Ethics was written/revised........maybe Mary H remembers. So the AMA has had the rule for at least 15 years which seems to predate the "old school" article you keep referring too since you said it was written a few years ago.


----------



## 08chrissy08

There is no article that could convince me that a maltese should leave it's breeder before 12 weeks old. I fully trust the experiences of the breeders we have on this forum as well as the wonderful rescue folks we have here. I also base this on my own experiences with maltese puppies. 

To the breeders we have here, I applaud you for being so concerned with the welfare of your babies. It is nothing but obvious that they come first in your view and that is the way it should be imho.


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 05:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800584


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks.[/B]


Joy,

I would imagine that the statement you are referring to is on there because, currently, no reputable breeder *WILL* let their puppies leave before 12 weeks old.................that's pretty black and white right now. Those that are currently willing to let their puppies go at younger ages, such as 6 and 8 weeks old are *NOT* breeding for the betterment of the breed and *DO NOT* have the best interests of their puppies in mind. I believe that I have read on this forum that someone calls them "Greeders".
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost: 

The AMA requires breeders to keep Maltese until they are at least 12 weeks old. Reputable breeders always follow the breed club's rules.


----------



## MaryH

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 3 2009, 07:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800626


> If I am remembering correctly, when I joined the AMA in 1994 their code of ethics already contained the 12 week rule. I do not remember when that particular Code of Ethics was written/revised........maybe Mary H remembers. So the AMA has had the rule for at least 15 years which seems to predate the "old school" article you keep referring too since you said it was written a few years ago.[/B]


I don't know when the Code of Ethics was first written and I don't know if/when there were revisions. I will trust you on this, Sharon, since you predate me .... in the AMA, I mean.


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 3 2009, 08:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800633


> I will trust you on this, Sharon, since you predate me .... in the AMA, I mean. [/B]


 :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:


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## totallytotontuffy

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800608


> It is not "MY" 8 week rule. I'm simply trying to say that there's a discrepancy between what the AMA rule and what veterinary organizations are saying. If the AMA or other small breed organizations have a problem with that, then they need to address this with the veterinary organizations. Joy[/B]


Speaking in general terms, if we subscribed to what "veterinary organizations" consider to be good dog food, we would all be feeding our dogs Purina or Science Diet. Further, those same veterinary organizations until very recently were subscribing to what the vaccine manufacturers were recommending as it pertains to annual vaccines. Personally I would not rely solely on academia to formulate my opinions or decisions. I prefer to evaluate as many resources as there are available and look at the entire picture. I think that reputable Maltese breeders have invaluable first hand experience that should not be disregarded or ignored.


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (TotallyTotoNTuffy @ Jul 3 2009, 08:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800642


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800608





> It is not "MY" 8 week rule. I'm simply trying to say that there's a discrepancy between what the AMA rule and what veterinary organizations are saying. If the AMA or other small breed organizations have a problem with that, then they need to address this with the veterinary organizations. Joy[/B]


Speaking in general terms, *if we subscribed to what "veterinary organizations" consider to be good dog food, we would all be feeding our dogs Purina or Science Diet.* Further, those same veterinary organizations until very recently were subscribing to what the vaccine manufacturers were recommending as it pertains to annual vaccines. Personally I would not rely solely on academia to formulate my opinions or decisions. *I prefer to evaluate as many resources as there are available and look at the entire picture. I think that reputable Maltese breeders have invaluable first hand experience that should not be disregarded or ignored.
*[/B][/QUOTE] 

Exactly. :goodpost:


----------



## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (TotallyTotoNTuffy @ Jul 3 2009, 08:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800642


> Speaking in general terms, if we subscribed to what "veterinary organizations" consider to be good dog food, we would all be feeding our dogs Purina or Science Diet. Further, those same veterinary organizations until very recently were subscribing to what the vaccine manufacturers were recommending as it pertains to annual vaccines. Personally I would not rely solely on academia to formulate my opinions or decisions. I prefer to evaluate as many resources as there are available and look at the entire picture. I think that reputable Maltese breeders have invaluable first hand experience that should not be disregarded or ignored.[/B]


 :goodpost: :woohoo2: :woohoo2:


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## 08chrissy08

QUOTE (TotallyTotoNTuffy @ Jul 3 2009, 05:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800642


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800608





> It is not "MY" 8 week rule. I'm simply trying to say that there's a discrepancy between what the AMA rule and what veterinary organizations are saying. If the AMA or other small breed organizations have a problem with that, then they need to address this with the veterinary organizations. Joy[/B]


Speaking in general terms, if we subscribed to what "veterinary organizations" consider to be good dog food, we would all be feeding our dogs Purina or Science Diet. Further, those same veterinary organizations until very recently were subscribing to what the vaccine manufacturers were recommending as it pertains to annual vaccines. Personally I would not rely solely on academia to formulate my opinions or decisions. I prefer to evaluate as many resources as there are available and look at the entire picture. I think that reputable Maltese breeders have invaluable first hand experience that should not be disregarded or ignored.
[/B][/QUOTE]


:goodpost: Couldn't agree more.


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## angel's mom

I don't see what the issue is. Joy, why is it important to you that pups get to leave before 12 weeks? So what if reputable breeders, or the AMA or whoever decides that 12 weeks is the appropriate time for maltese to stay with their litter. What difference does it make to be "overly cautionous?" Even if it were controversial, isn't it better to err on the side of caution. 

Sorry, but the only benefit I can see of the rule being changed to earlier than the 12-weeks is to the byb or millers.


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## LJSquishy

Personally, I don't care what the "books" say. Unless it specifies Maltese or Toy breeds in specific, it's not relevant. I would NEVER want my Maltese to come home to me at 8, 9, or 10 weeks old -- they just aren't ready. 12 weeks is plenty young, and in some cases, it's not old enough.

The behaviors/development between an 8 week old Maltese and an 8 week old Labrador is TOTALLY different. I'm not sure how any research could clump them together in saying that 8 week old puppies are old enough to be released into their new homes. :thmbdn:


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## sophie

I just wanted to pop in and say that when I found and signed up for SM I came with an 8 week old Maltipoo that was purchased from a broker as a surprise gift for me by my husband who had never had any kind of pet in his life. And, I hadn't had a dog in 25 years. Can we say red flags as new pet owners??? No one jumped down my throat and I was made to feel very welcome and I still feel very welcome here. 

Secondly, as y'all are probably tired of hearing - Annie came to us at 8 months of age through a rescue group who had just gotten her the day before from the shelter. While I don't know her entire history, suffice it to say she had not spent her first 8 months being socialized by a loving breeder or family. And, while she still has no idea what the fuss about toys and fetching is, we are very bonded and she loves people for the most part and other dogs. 

And, even though we got Sophie at 8 weeks of age and I thought I've done a pretty good raising her, she still has little behavior quirks that she most likely would not have if she had been allowed to stay with her mom and littermate longer. Bless her heart she tries to initiate play with Annie, but has no idea how to do it! It took Annie a while, but I believe she is teaching Sophie what it means to be a dog (don't tell her I called her a dog) and how to play as a dog. We got her at 8 weeks, but the broker most likely got her much younger - she was about 2 lbs when we got her.

Linda


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## Cosy

QUOTE (08chrissy08 @ Jul 3 2009, 08:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800652


> QUOTE (TotallyTotoNTuffy @ Jul 3 2009, 05:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800642





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 05:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800608





> It is not "MY" 8 week rule. I'm simply trying to say that there's a discrepancy between what the AMA rule and what veterinary organizations are saying. If the AMA or other small breed organizations have a problem with that, then they need to address this with the veterinary organizations. Joy[/B]


Speaking in general terms, if we subscribed to what "veterinary organizations" consider to be good dog food, we would all be feeding our dogs Purina or Science Diet. Further, those same veterinary organizations until very recently were subscribing to what the vaccine manufacturers were recommending as it pertains to annual vaccines. Personally I would not rely solely on academia to formulate my opinions or decisions. I prefer to evaluate as many resources as there are available and look at the entire picture. I think that reputable Maltese breeders have invaluable first hand experience that should not be disregarded or ignored.
[/B][/QUOTE]


:goodpost: Couldn't agree more.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Great post Deb!
I think the veterinary organizations are being general rather than breed specific, therefore there is really no sound reason for AMA to adjust
their rule of 12 weeks since it is based soundly on what maltese breeders feel is best for the pups. (Isn't that what is really important anyway?)


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## gq12o

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580


> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800552





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.
[/B][/QUOTE]



What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks. I'm even more disturbed that most of these new members disappear after their initial introduction. I can't articulate why this matters to me - it's really none of my business. I suppose that I see this forum as having so much more potential if we didn't run all these potential forum members off. 

I will state it once again. As of right now, I haven't been able to find anything from academia to support that 12 week rule. In fact, all of academia state puppies can go to their new homes much earlier than 12 weeks. By academia, I mean veterinary school faculty, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior. These are all organizations whose members are veterinarians. The American Maltese Association is composed of whom?????????? I would guess a variety of occupations, including lay persons.

When it gets to the nitty gritty, I agree that IF the maltese are socialized properly, it doesn't matter what age they go to a new home. I've purchased two VERY socialized and sweet maltese from a non-AMA member (one at 8 weeks, and one at nine weeks) and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I know there's lots of you who have gotten your maltese at a later age and are okay with their dog's behavior. 

I wouldn't think twice about getting another small breed puppy at eight or nine weeks if the puppy was ready. I got Karli at nine weeks and immediately enrolled her in puppy class. By far, she has been the easiest to train and groom than any of the other dogs I've ever had. She will literally lay on her back and go to sleep while I trim her nails and she does all her basic obedience commands with just a hand signal. 

I won't dispute that a dog CAN bond and be trained if you get them later. However, from what I've read from the behaviorists, it's easier and faster if the puppy is acquired and is in the owner's home before that critical/socialization period is over. 

I just think it's only fair that the members of this forum know all angles of thought on the "age to new home" issue and I plan to keep bringing all sides of the topic up as long as I'm a member.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?" 

Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week. 

there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.

vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots. 

separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)

potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)

dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.

maybe my dog is an exception. 

just my 2 cents.


----------



## Cosy

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 12:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800552





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.
[/B][/QUOTE]



What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks. I'm even more disturbed that most of these new members disappear after their initial introduction. I can't articulate why this matters to me - it's really none of my business. I suppose that I see this forum as having so much more potential if we didn't run all these potential forum members off. 

I will state it once again. As of right now, I haven't been able to find anything from academia to support that 12 week rule. In fact, all of academia state puppies can go to their new homes much earlier than 12 weeks. By academia, I mean veterinary school faculty, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior. These are all organizations whose members are veterinarians. The American Maltese Association is composed of whom?????????? I would guess a variety of occupations, including lay persons.

When it gets to the nitty gritty, I agree that IF the maltese are socialized properly, it doesn't matter what age they go to a new home. I've purchased two VERY socialized and sweet maltese from a non-AMA member (one at 8 weeks, and one at nine weeks) and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I know there's lots of you who have gotten your maltese at a later age and are okay with their dog's behavior. 

I wouldn't think twice about getting another small breed puppy at eight or nine weeks if the puppy was ready. I got Karli at nine weeks and immediately enrolled her in puppy class. By far, she has been the easiest to train and groom than any of the other dogs I've ever had. She will literally lay on her back and go to sleep while I trim her nails and she does all her basic obedience commands with just a hand signal. 

I won't dispute that a dog CAN bond and be trained if you get them later. However, from what I've read from the behaviorists, it's easier and faster if the puppy is acquired and is in the owner's home before that critical/socialization period is over. 

I just think it's only fair that the members of this forum know all angles of thought on the "age to new home" issue and I plan to keep bringing all sides of the topic up as long as I'm a member.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?" 

Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week. 

there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.

vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots. 

separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)

potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)

dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.

maybe my dog is an exception. 

just my 2 cents.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I've never seen anyone chastized for getting their dog younger than 12 weeks. Rather we tend to let them know that reputable
breeders wait until then to sell. That's not belittling the new owner, but letting them know there could be problems (could be!)
and that they might want to investigate farther before acquiring another from said breeder. If they are awaiting the new pup at
8 weeks we often will give them the reasons for waiting until 12 weeks and suggest perhaps the breeder will keep the pup longer
for the pup's sake. I can't see that it should make anyone feel like they've committed a felony. LOL


----------



## gq12o

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jul 3 2009, 10:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800731


> QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 12:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800552





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.
[/B][/QUOTE]



What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks. I'm even more disturbed that most of these new members disappear after their initial introduction. I can't articulate why this matters to me - it's really none of my business. I suppose that I see this forum as having so much more potential if we didn't run all these potential forum members off. 

I will state it once again. As of right now, I haven't been able to find anything from academia to support that 12 week rule. In fact, all of academia state puppies can go to their new homes much earlier than 12 weeks. By academia, I mean veterinary school faculty, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior. These are all organizations whose members are veterinarians. The American Maltese Association is composed of whom?????????? I would guess a variety of occupations, including lay persons.

When it gets to the nitty gritty, I agree that IF the maltese are socialized properly, it doesn't matter what age they go to a new home. I've purchased two VERY socialized and sweet maltese from a non-AMA member (one at 8 weeks, and one at nine weeks) and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I know there's lots of you who have gotten your maltese at a later age and are okay with their dog's behavior. 

I wouldn't think twice about getting another small breed puppy at eight or nine weeks if the puppy was ready. I got Karli at nine weeks and immediately enrolled her in puppy class. By far, she has been the easiest to train and groom than any of the other dogs I've ever had. She will literally lay on her back and go to sleep while I trim her nails and she does all her basic obedience commands with just a hand signal. 

I won't dispute that a dog CAN bond and be trained if you get them later. However, from what I've read from the behaviorists, it's easier and faster if the puppy is acquired and is in the owner's home before that critical/socialization period is over. 

I just think it's only fair that the members of this forum know all angles of thought on the "age to new home" issue and I plan to keep bringing all sides of the topic up as long as I'm a member.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?" 

Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week. 

there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.

vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots. 

separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)

potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)

dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.

maybe my dog is an exception. 

just my 2 cents.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I've never seen anyone chastized for getting their dog younger than 12 weeks. Rather we tend to let them know that reputable
breeders wait until then to sell. That's not belittling the new owner, but letting them know there could be problems (could be!)
and that they might want to investigate farther before acquiring another from said breeder. If they are awaiting the new pup at
8 weeks we often will give them the reasons for waiting until 12 weeks and suggest perhaps the breeder will keep the pup longer
for the pup's sake. I can't see that it should make anyone feel like they've committed a felony. LOL
[/B][/QUOTE]


yes, i was just exaggerating a little bit about the felony part, but you guys are like hawks about it.


----------



## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 01:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800552





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.
[/B][/QUOTE]



What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks. I'm even more disturbed that most of these new members disappear after their initial introduction. I can't articulate why this matters to me - it's really none of my business. I suppose that I see this forum as having so much more potential if we didn't run all these potential forum members off. 

I will state it once again. As of right now, I haven't been able to find anything from academia to support that 12 week rule. In fact, all of academia state puppies can go to their new homes much earlier than 12 weeks. By academia, I mean veterinary school faculty, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior. These are all organizations whose members are veterinarians. The American Maltese Association is composed of whom?????????? I would guess a variety of occupations, including lay persons.

When it gets to the nitty gritty, I agree that IF the maltese are socialized properly, it doesn't matter what age they go to a new home. I've purchased two VERY socialized and sweet maltese from a non-AMA member (one at 8 weeks, and one at nine weeks) and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I know there's lots of you who have gotten your maltese at a later age and are okay with their dog's behavior. 

I wouldn't think twice about getting another small breed puppy at eight or nine weeks if the puppy was ready. I got Karli at nine weeks and immediately enrolled her in puppy class. By far, she has been the easiest to train and groom than any of the other dogs I've ever had. She will literally lay on her back and go to sleep while I trim her nails and she does all her basic obedience commands with just a hand signal. 

I won't dispute that a dog CAN bond and be trained if you get them later. However, from what I've read from the behaviorists, it's easier and faster if the puppy is acquired and is in the owner's home before that critical/socialization period is over. 

I just think it's only fair that the members of this forum know all angles of thought on the "age to new home" issue and I plan to keep bringing all sides of the topic up as long as I'm a member.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?" 

Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week. 

there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.

vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots. 

separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)

potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)

dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.

maybe my dog is an exception. 

just my 2 cents.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I normally stay out of these topics because I am NOT a breeder and don't plan to be but I enjoyed hearing about your puppy. What a lot of people hear are saying are, that the *majority *of toy breed pups are should not leave the house until twelve weeks. What they are argueing with Joy is that many people on this have raised many young puppies and even bred and raise maltese. They they have seen, *not* just _one_, *not* just _two_, but many, many malt puppies and they know as a fact how puppies are at every age. Unless a _breeder _came on this forum that has had a similar experience to you or Joy, your pups may just be exceptions. 

And I hope everybody knows this by now, but you can't hear a person's tone when typing. Sorry, I don't know how you felt our tones "harsh".

I personally prefer a puppy a bit older, I've had a 10 week old malt pup before, wasn't so fun. LOL I got Gigi when she was 5.5 months and we couldn't be closer. I feel like Brit, it would drive me crazy if we were closer. LOL I don't regret a thing about getting an older pup. Heck, my next I want it to be a retiree. I'll leave the hard stuff for the breeders.  

just my two cents too...


----------



## MandyMc65

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 3 2009, 09:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730


> I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
> I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?"
> 
> Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week.
> 
> there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.
> 
> vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots.
> 
> separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)
> 
> potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)
> 
> dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.
> 
> maybe my dog is an exception.
> 
> just my 2 cents.[/B]


Wow! I'm glad you've had a positive experience.

How big was your little one when it came home at 7 weeks? 

My biggest surprise of this whole post wasn't the fact your pup came home before 12 weeks or even flew for 10 hours in a bag at 63 days old, it was the vaccinations!

My vet's office does not even offer a 5 in 1. They have the DHPP but exclude the Lepto. If you want Lepto it is given separate, as is rabies. Not to mention that the 6 week shot has been found to be useless, and the pup will still need shots up to/at 16 weeks. I'm glad you had no reactions. My little one had her last puppy shot 2 weeks ago. She felt sick all day! That is not me exaggerating that was how she was! Today she had rabies, luckily no reaction. Today she was only sleepy for an hour or two. 

Was the Korean breeder you got your puppy from reputable? Do they show or did they just have puppies? I saw you said your 'friend' had puppies. 

I do have to agree though on one thing. A lot of people who introduce themselves do get bombarded with "You shouldn't have bought that puppy before 12 weeks!" What's done is done and they aren't going to change that. However I also understand that the comments are made from the heart and with concern for the pup and the poster, it is not done with malice. Knowledge is power. By coming here they can protect themselves, their pup and learn for the future.


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 01:44 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800732


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Jul 3 2009, 10:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800731





> QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 12:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800552





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.
[/B][/QUOTE]



What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks. I'm even more disturbed that most of these new members disappear after their initial introduction. I can't articulate why this matters to me - it's really none of my business. I suppose that I see this forum as having so much more potential if we didn't run all these potential forum members off. 

I will state it once again. As of right now, I haven't been able to find anything from academia to support that 12 week rule. In fact, all of academia state puppies can go to their new homes much earlier than 12 weeks. By academia, I mean veterinary school faculty, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior. These are all organizations whose members are veterinarians. The American Maltese Association is composed of whom?????????? I would guess a variety of occupations, including lay persons.

When it gets to the nitty gritty, I agree that IF the maltese are socialized properly, it doesn't matter what age they go to a new home. I've purchased two VERY socialized and sweet maltese from a non-AMA member (one at 8 weeks, and one at nine weeks) and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I know there's lots of you who have gotten your maltese at a later age and are okay with their dog's behavior. 

I wouldn't think twice about getting another small breed puppy at eight or nine weeks if the puppy was ready. I got Karli at nine weeks and immediately enrolled her in puppy class. By far, she has been the easiest to train and groom than any of the other dogs I've ever had. She will literally lay on her back and go to sleep while I trim her nails and she does all her basic obedience commands with just a hand signal. 

I won't dispute that a dog CAN bond and be trained if you get them later. However, from what I've read from the behaviorists, it's easier and faster if the puppy is acquired and is in the owner's home before that critical/socialization period is over. 

I just think it's only fair that the members of this forum know all angles of thought on the "age to new home" issue and I plan to keep bringing all sides of the topic up as long as I'm a member.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?" 

Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week. 

there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.

vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots. 

separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)

potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)

dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.

maybe my dog is an exception. 

just my 2 cents.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I've never seen anyone chastized for getting their dog younger than 12 weeks. Rather we tend to let them know that reputable
breeders wait until then to sell. That's not belittling the new owner, but letting them know there could be problems (could be!)
and that they might want to investigate farther before acquiring another from said breeder. If they are awaiting the new pup at
8 weeks we often will give them the reasons for waiting until 12 weeks and suggest perhaps the breeder will keep the pup longer
for the pup's sake. I can't see that it should make anyone feel like they've committed a felony. LOL
[/B][/QUOTE]


yes, *i was just exaggerating a little bit about the felony part*, but you guys are like hawks about it.
[/B][/QUOTE]


LOL ~ I'll say you were exaggerating. I read the thread, which made you feel like a "felon". You've got to be kidding, right?

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...ic=45887&hl=


----------



## gq12o

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 11:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800739


> QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 3 2009, 09:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730





> I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
> I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?"
> 
> Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week.
> 
> there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.
> 
> vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots.
> 
> separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)
> 
> potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)
> 
> dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.
> 
> maybe my dog is an exception.
> 
> just my 2 cents.[/B]


Wow! I'm glad you've had a positive experience.

How big was your little one when it came home at 7 weeks? 

My biggest surprise of this whole post wasn't the fact your pup came home before 12 weeks or even flew for 10 hours in a bag at 63 days old, it was the vaccinations!

My vet's office does not even offer a 5 in 1. They have the DHPP but exclude the Lepto. If you want Lepto it is given separate, as is rabies. Not to mention that the 6 week shot has been found to be useless, and the pup will still need shots up to/at 16 weeks. I'm glad you had no reactions. My little one had her last puppy shot 2 weeks ago. She felt sick all day! That is not me exaggerating that was how she was! Today she had rabies, luckily no reaction. Today she was only sleepy for an hour or two. 

Was the Korean breeder you got your puppy from reputable? Do they show or did they just have puppies? I saw you said your 'friend' had puppies. 

I do have to agree though on one thing. A lot of people who introduce themselves do get bombarded with "You shouldn't have bought that puppy before 12 weeks!" What's done is done and they aren't going to change that. However I also understand that the comments are made from the heart and with concern for the pup and the poster, it is not done with malice. Knowledge is power. By coming here they can protect themselves, their pup and learn for the future.
[/B][/QUOTE]


i dont think he/she was a 'reputable breeder'. I dont know if they breed regularly or if this is the first time. i highly doubt they show, but like i said, i dont know them. i believe the pup was about 500g when mt friend brought her home at 7 weeks. 600 at 8 weeks, 750 at 11, 960 at 12.5, 1050 yesterday. 

3maltmon - Ive already stated that i was exaggerating. i dont see what the point of your post is. a lot of you jump on people about bringing home a puppy before 12 weeks. its not just my post i am speaking of. im sure other people experience it as well, as have been stated. im not here to start an argument or a fight, im just merely stating how it sounds.


----------



## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 03:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800747


> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 11:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800739





> QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 3 2009, 09:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730





> I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
> I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?"
> 
> Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week.
> 
> there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.
> 
> vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots.
> 
> separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)
> 
> potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)
> 
> dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.
> 
> maybe my dog is an exception.
> 
> just my 2 cents.[/B]


Wow! I'm glad you've had a positive experience.

How big was your little one when it came home at 7 weeks? 

My biggest surprise of this whole post wasn't the fact your pup came home before 12 weeks or even flew for 10 hours in a bag at 63 days old, it was the vaccinations!

My vet's office does not even offer a 5 in 1. They have the DHPP but exclude the Lepto. If you want Lepto it is given separate, as is rabies. Not to mention that the 6 week shot has been found to be useless, and the pup will still need shots up to/at 16 weeks. I'm glad you had no reactions. My little one had her last puppy shot 2 weeks ago. She felt sick all day! That is not me exaggerating that was how she was! Today she had rabies, luckily no reaction. Today she was only sleepy for an hour or two. 

Was the Korean breeder you got your puppy from reputable? Do they show or did they just have puppies? I saw you said your 'friend' had puppies. 

I do have to agree though on one thing. A lot of people who introduce themselves do get bombarded with "You shouldn't have bought that puppy before 12 weeks!" What's done is done and they aren't going to change that. However I also understand that the comments are made from the heart and with concern for the pup and the poster, it is not done with malice. Knowledge is power. By coming here they can protect themselves, their pup and learn for the future.
[/B][/QUOTE]


i dont think he/she was a 'reputable breeder'. I dont know if they breed regularly or if this is the first time. i highly doubt they show, but like i said, i dont know them. i believe the pup was about 500g when mt friend brought her home at 7 weeks. 600 at 8 weeks, 750 at 11, 960 at 12.5, 1050 yesterday. 

3maltmon - Ive already stated that i was exaggerating. i dont see what the point of your post is. a lot of you jump on people about bringing home a puppy before 12 weeks. its not just my post i am speaking of. im sure other people experience it as well, as have been stated. im not here to start an argument or a fight, im just merely stating how it sounds.
[/B][/QUOTE]

How it sounds? All I can hear is my tv!  Sorry I had too say that. 
You can't really hear people's tones when they are typing.


----------



## 3Maltmom

"3maltmon - Ive already stated that i was exaggerating. i dont see what the point of your post is. a lot of you jump on people about bringing home a puppy before 12 weeks. its not just my post i am speaking of. im sure other people experience it as well, as have been stated. im not here to start an argument or a fight, im just merely stating how it sounds." 


Hey, that's cool. As I don't see the point of your post either.


----------



## Poppy's mommy

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jul 4 2009, 12:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800733


> QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 01:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800730





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 3 2009, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800580





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 03:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800552





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 3 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800546





> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800537





> Most toy breed litters I have seen are still nursing on mom around 8 weeks...Stacy, Sharon, and anyone else, how late do yours stop nursing? I would never wish it at 3 1/2 weeks...it was worse than raising orphan puppies and these weren't tiny Maltese pups.[/B]


yes, just like i'd never wish puppies on anyone who are too early to nurse effectively! I feel fortunate that the mom was able to take back over when the puppy got strong enough. 

Mine are usually just transitioning around 8 weeks to be weaned. i let the mom tell me when it's time, LOL. Those new puppy teefums are painful. Eating wise, they could probably go to a new home at 8 weeks but I would never consider it. Too much poopy butt going on at that time (and if you don't clean it off, it could make your little pup pretty sick) I also still let the mom and pups play together after weaning because I feel she will still teach that ever important bite inhibition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree that mom and pups (other pups whether siblings or not) help 100% with bite inhibition! I have not had an issue with Kenzie's biting. She had no problems adjusting and has fit in wonderfully. We are bonded and we bond more and more every day - she came to me at 16 weeks.

I just don't understand why you have such an issue with the 12 week rule. I am not one to just agree, I've always questioned things, maybe that's why I have a degree in Science. However, I will take other people's experience over scientific data when not every variable is studied, most important variable here is the breed!

If we were in a different country (e.g. Australia) where they feel their pups are ready at 9 or 10 weeks then so be it - but I do believe that their standard is larger than ours. But here, a reputable breeder will send a pup home before 12 weeks. Reputable breeders are socializing their dogs and giving them a proper home - why should it matter what age they are when you bring them into your house? Why is it so important that you think the pup should go home at 8 or 10 weeks? What can be gained from that? Do these gains really outweigh the risks? 

For me, I don't think it matters if you get the puppy at 8, 10, 12, 16, etc... weeks old. It depends on how they were being raised and how much time and effort you are going to put in.
[/B][/QUOTE]



What bothers me is that members of this forum are still hounding new members (see the Introduction section) with the statement that no reputable breeder will let their puppy go to a new home at less than twelve weeks. I'm even more disturbed that most of these new members disappear after their initial introduction. I can't articulate why this matters to me - it's really none of my business. I suppose that I see this forum as having so much more potential if we didn't run all these potential forum members off. 

I will state it once again. As of right now, I haven't been able to find anything from academia to support that 12 week rule. In fact, all of academia state puppies can go to their new homes much earlier than 12 weeks. By academia, I mean veterinary school faculty, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, and the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior. These are all organizations whose members are veterinarians. The American Maltese Association is composed of whom?????????? I would guess a variety of occupations, including lay persons.

When it gets to the nitty gritty, I agree that IF the maltese are socialized properly, it doesn't matter what age they go to a new home. I've purchased two VERY socialized and sweet maltese from a non-AMA member (one at 8 weeks, and one at nine weeks) and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. I know there's lots of you who have gotten your maltese at a later age and are okay with their dog's behavior. 

I wouldn't think twice about getting another small breed puppy at eight or nine weeks if the puppy was ready. I got Karli at nine weeks and immediately enrolled her in puppy class. By far, she has been the easiest to train and groom than any of the other dogs I've ever had. She will literally lay on her back and go to sleep while I trim her nails and she does all her basic obedience commands with just a hand signal. 

I won't dispute that a dog CAN bond and be trained if you get them later. However, from what I've read from the behaviorists, it's easier and faster if the puppy is acquired and is in the owner's home before that critical/socialization period is over. 

I just think it's only fair that the members of this forum know all angles of thought on the "age to new home" issue and I plan to keep bringing all sides of the topic up as long as I'm a member.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?" 

Ill be honest here. My friend brought home the pup at 7 weeks, and flew her over from korea to SF (10 hour flight) at 63 days. when my friend brought her home, my pup had already been eating dry food for over a week. 

there was no crying throughout the night the first night, or the next, or ever.

vaccination: my pup at 6 weeks had a 5 in 1, letpo, and another parvo. no reaction, no scares. she had the same shot at 8 weeks old. again no reaction, no issues. pup didnt cry, squeal, nothing. she took the vaccines like a soldier. there was no "she was back to herself in no time" because there was never a time she wasnt herself after her shots. 

separation anxiety: when ever i leave the house, theres absolutely no separation anxiety. i pretend to walk out, and stay out of her view. she looks down the staircase for about 10 seconds, and when i slowly walk back up, shes playing with her toys, and minding her own business. (locking her in her pen is a different story)

potty training: id say shes 80% trained. she'll have an accident once every few days, but shes pretty good about doing her business on the pads. i have 3 pads out for her. also, ive seen her hold it for 7+ hours when she needed to (yes, i know this is bad, but i couldnt help it) as soon as i got the chance to get her out to her pads she went right away after holding it for 7+ hours (mind you she was 2.5 months at the time)

dont get me wrong. i love coming here to read about your little furballs and i get great advice. but the "if you got your dog less than 12 weeks, you've just committed a felony" tone is a bit harsh i think.

maybe my dog is an exception. 

just my 2 cents.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I normally stay out of these topics because I am NOT a breeder and don't plan to be but I enjoyed hearing about your puppy. What a lot of people hear are saying are, that the *majority *of toy breed pups are should not leave the house until twelve weeks. What they are argueing with Joy is that many people on this have raised many young puppies and even bred and raise maltese. They they have seen, *not* just _one_, *not* just _two_, but many, many malt puppies and they know as a fact how puppies are at every age. Unless a _breeder _came on this forum that has had a similar experience to you or Joy, your pups may just be exceptions. 

And I hope everybody knows this by now, but you can't hear a person's tone when typing. Sorry, I don't know how you felt our tones "harsh".

I personally prefer a puppy a bit older, I've had a 10 week old malt pup before, wasn't so fun. LOL I got Gigi when she was 5.5 months and we couldn't be closer. I feel like Brit, it would drive me crazy if we were closer. LOL I don't regret a thing about getting an older pup. Heck, my next I want it to be a retiree. I'll leave the hard stuff for the breeders.  

just my two cents too... 
[/B][/QUOTE]


I agree I prefer the older ones also. My Poppy was about 10 weeks when I received him (his breeder lets well would let her puppies go at 9 weeks )and I really felt like he had not been socialized enough. He was very timid and shaky at first. When I start searching for my next puppy I would love to have 16 weeks and up. I really hope all breeders keep the 12 week rule and I do not mind them keeping their puppies with them longer. Just my opinion.


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## I found nemo

I got Nemo at 10 weeks from a pet-store, but god knows when he actually arrived there. Nemo has been fine and does great personality wise.
I would still want to wait the 12 weeks, I mean it's for the all the right reasons, so why not wait? 
I wouldn't condemn someone who didn't wait . I like reading and learning, I just don't understand the bickering and why every couple of months this subject is brought up? I mean to the op you know there are going to be people who will get into it with each other? I have seen this thread and this debate so so many times, I mean you have the right to believe your way and so do others, just leave it at that . JMO


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## theboyz

This subject just bothers the heck out of me..... :angry: 

The REPUTABLE breeders that care about the breed, know the breed and are concerned about the health, socialization, behavior and well being....Keep Their Puppies Until 12 Weeks of age or MORE.

The "Breed for Greeders" let them go whenever. I have helped with a 6 week old pup that someone bought from a disgusting breeder. Pup didn't even have teeth. 

Some Vets are NOT knowledgeable about the Maltese breed. Do not rely on all Vets' judgment as far as this subject is concerned. Our friend Jennifer ( Olive Tree Maltese ) worked and worked with our wonderful Vet, educating, studying everything detrimental and the uniqueness to the Maltese breed. Our Vet has a huge Maltese practice now and everything from day to day caring for puppies to shots, food, health, liver enzymes, food etc. she knows and preaches.
If someone brings in a pup UNDER 12 weeks she "schools" them what to do, look for, etc. She introduces them to Jennifer and they have an advisor, if wanted, to call and talk to.
(We are so fortunate to have Dr. Jaimie a part of this forum!!!!)

I just love and applaud the breeders, Sharon, Stacy and others that hold our wonderful Maltese breed in such high esteem. :aktion033: 

I DO think that the new people coming into the forum should hear about buying a puppy before 12 weeks and learn about the "Breed for Greeders". What we preach is passed on and hopefully someone will learn from others mistakes.

12 weeks or more before they go out the door!!!!!!
I have seen it and please believe me, the reputable breeders KNOW what they are talking about.

JMO


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## MaryH

As a general rule by 12 weeks old most puppies are weaned, eating dry kibble, able to grasp the basics of where to eliminate, have been examined by a vet and had at least one vaccination, all of which increase their chances of thriving in a new environment. On a case by case basis there are puppies who could thrive in a new home just as well at an earlier age and there are puppies who should be held back until they are older than 12 weeks. AMA members have agreed to keep their puppies until 12 weeks of age because on average they believe it gives their puppies the best chance of thriving in a new environment. If a breeder chooses to place a puppy before 12 weeks should we automatically assume that person to be less than reputable or, worse yet, a backyard breeder?  By the same token, if a breeder chooses to hold a puppy until it is 16 weeks old should we automatically assume that that puppy is weak or sickly? There's a big difference between shipping a puppy out of a mill for a cross-country transport at 6 weeks old vs. placing a healthy, well-developed, less than 12-week old puppy into a home where the breeder is confident that the puppy will thrive. Without knowing all the details I think we need to be careful not to paint all situations by the same brush.

MaryH


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 4 2009, 09:33 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800808


> As a general rule by 12 weeks old most puppies are weaned, eating dry kibble, able to grasp the basics of where to eliminate, have been examined by a vet and had at least one vaccination, all of which increase their chances of thriving in a new environment. On a case by case basis there are puppies who could thrive in a new home just as well at an earlier age and there are puppies who should be held back until they are older than 12 weeks. AMA members have agreed to keep their puppies until 12 weeks of age because on average they believe it gives their puppies the best chance of thriving in a new environment. If a breeder chooses to place a puppy before 12 weeks should we automatically assume that person to be less than reputable or, worse yet, a backyard breeder? By the same token, if a breeder chooses to hold a puppy until it is 16 weeks old should we automatically assume that that puppy is weak or sickly? There's a big difference between shipping a puppy out of a mill for a cross-country transport at 6 weeks old vs. placing a healthy, well-developed, less than 12-week old puppy into a home where the breeder is confident that the puppy will thrive. Without knowing all the details I think we need to be careful not to paint all situations by the same brush.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


 :goodpost: 

I use the 12 week rule as my guide. I also have a personal rule about the weight of a puppy leaving my house. When I have a puppy that is on the smaller side of the scale, my rule of thumb is that they have to weigh 2 lbs before leaving my house. 

I have had puppies that could have left a bit earlier than the 12 weeks but the additional benefit of them staying to a minimum of 12 weeks old far exceeds any reasoning for them to leave my house any earlier than 12 weeks old. 

My current two puppies have been on a 3000 mile road trip, have been handled by numerous people besides my hubby and I, I have purposely had them on numerous surfaces and many different situations. They began potty pad training as soon as they started leaving the whelping box. Before they are 12 weeks old I will also have them at at least one puppy party at the Daycare (hopefully two) and by 12 weeks they will be running with several more of my adults......Grandma DeeDee and Aunty Eve are already running and playing with them to some extent. They have both been introduced to the grooming table and minor grooming and will have at least two baths under their belt before 12 weeks old. I feel that the education that I can give them here far out weigh letting them go any earlier. When one of them leaves to go to his new home, he will be a very happy, well rounded puppy that takes most new situations in stride. 

This is just part of my job as a breeder but I feel it is very important, none the less. 

All of the breeders, that I know, spend a lot of time preparing their puppies for the real world. 12 weeks is actually a very short time period to do all that needs to be done for these little guys to be happy, well rounded puppies.


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## LJSquishy

QUOTE


> I use the 12 week rule as my guide. I also have a personal rule about the weight of a puppy leaving my house. When I have a puppy that is on the smaller side of the scale, my rule of thumb is that they have to weigh 2 lbs before leaving my house.
> 
> I have had puppies that could have left a bit earlier than the 12 weeks but the additional benefit of them staying to a minimum of 12 weeks old far exceeds any reasoning for them to leave my house any earlier than 12 weeks old.
> 
> My current two puppies have been on a 3000 mile road trip, have been handled by numerous people besides my hubby and I, I have purposely had them on numerous surfaces and many different situations. They began potty pad training as soon as they started leaving the whelping box. Before they are 12 weeks old I will also have them at at least one puppy party at the Daycare (hopefully two) and by 12 weeks they will be running with several more of my adults......Grandma DeeDee and Aunty Eve are already running and playing with them to some extent. They have both been introduced to the grooming table and minor grooming and will have at least two baths under their belt before 12 weeks old. I feel that the education that I can give them here far out weigh letting them go any earlier. When one of them leaves to go to his new home, he will be a very happy, well rounded puppy that takes most new situations in stride.
> 
> This is just part of my job as a breeder but I feel it is very important, none the less.
> 
> All of the breeders, that I know, spend a lot of time preparing their puppies for the real world. 12 weeks is actually a very short time period to do all that needs to be done for these little guys to be happy, well rounded puppies.[/B]


 :goodpost: :amen: As a pet owner of Maltese, I couldn't agree more!


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## 08chrissy08

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 4 2009, 07:44 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800836


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 4 2009, 09:33 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800808





> As a general rule by 12 weeks old most puppies are weaned, eating dry kibble, able to grasp the basics of where to eliminate, have been examined by a vet and had at least one vaccination, all of which increase their chances of thriving in a new environment. On a case by case basis there are puppies who could thrive in a new home just as well at an earlier age and there are puppies who should be held back until they are older than 12 weeks. AMA members have agreed to keep their puppies until 12 weeks of age because on average they believe it gives their puppies the best chance of thriving in a new environment. If a breeder chooses to place a puppy before 12 weeks should we automatically assume that person to be less than reputable or, worse yet, a backyard breeder? By the same token, if a breeder chooses to hold a puppy until it is 16 weeks old should we automatically assume that that puppy is weak or sickly? There's a big difference between shipping a puppy out of a mill for a cross-country transport at 6 weeks old vs. placing a healthy, well-developed, less than 12-week old puppy into a home where the breeder is confident that the puppy will thrive. Without knowing all the details I think we need to be careful not to paint all situations by the same brush.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


 :goodpost: 

I use the 12 week rule as my guide. I also have a personal rule about the weight of a puppy leaving my house. When I have a puppy that is on the smaller side of the scale, my rule of thumb is that they have to weigh 2 lbs before leaving my house. 

I have had puppies that could have left a bit earlier than the 12 weeks but the additional benefit of them staying to a minimum of 12 weeks old far exceeds any reasoning for them to leave my house any earlier than 12 weeks old. 

My current two puppies have been on a 3000 mile road trip, have been handled by numerous people besides my hubby and I, I have purposely had them on numerous surfaces and many different situations. They began potty pad training as soon as they started leaving the whelping box. Before they are 12 weeks old I will also have them at at least one puppy party at the Daycare (hopefully two) and by 12 weeks they will be running with several more of my adults......Grandma DeeDee and Aunty Eve are already running and playing with them to some extent. They have both been introduced to the grooming table and minor grooming and will have at least two baths under their belt before 12 weeks old. I feel that the education that I can give them here far out weigh letting them go any earlier. When one of them leaves to go to his new home, he will be a very happy, well rounded puppy that takes most new situations in stride. 

This is just part of my job as a breeder but I feel it is very important, none the less. 

All of the breeders, that I know, spend a lot of time preparing their puppies for the real world. 12 weeks is actually a very short time period to do all that needs to be done for these little guys to be happy, well rounded puppies.
[/B][/QUOTE]


These are exactly the kinds of things I would look for in breeder. While a puppy may be ok leaving before 12 weeks, I feel that this kind of socialization and exposure to a lot of situations is so crucial at a young age. All of these reasons are why I feel I would go with a puppy from a breeder that holds them until 12 weeks (or longer if needed) instead of any other regardless of the individual puppies maturity. I do definitely agree that they mature at different rates, but I want my puppy to come to me well socialized and confident and I think this kind of thing can help to eliminate a lot of behavioral issues.


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 4 2009, 10:44 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800836


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 4 2009, 09:33 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800808





> As a general rule by 12 weeks old most puppies are weaned, eating dry kibble, able to grasp the basics of where to eliminate, have been examined by a vet and had at least one vaccination, all of which increase their chances of thriving in a new environment. On a case by case basis there are puppies who could thrive in a new home just as well at an earlier age and there are puppies who should be held back until they are older than 12 weeks. AMA members have agreed to keep their puppies until 12 weeks of age because on average they believe it gives their puppies the best chance of thriving in a new environment. If a breeder chooses to place a puppy before 12 weeks should we automatically assume that person to be less than reputable or, worse yet, a backyard breeder? By the same token, if a breeder chooses to hold a puppy until it is 16 weeks old should we automatically assume that that puppy is weak or sickly? There's a big difference between shipping a puppy out of a mill for a cross-country transport at 6 weeks old vs. placing a healthy, well-developed, less than 12-week old puppy into a home where the breeder is confident that the puppy will thrive. Without knowing all the details I think we need to be careful not to paint all situations by the same brush.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


 :goodpost: 

I use the 12 week rule as my guide. I also have a personal rule about the weight of a puppy leaving my house. When I have a puppy that is on the smaller side of the scale, my rule of thumb is that they have to weigh 2 lbs before leaving my house. 

I have had puppies that could have left a bit earlier than the 12 weeks but the additional benefit of them staying to a minimum of 12 weeks old far exceeds any reasoning for them to leave my house any earlier than 12 weeks old. 

My current two puppies have been on a 3000 mile road trip, have been handled by numerous people besides my hubby and I, I have purposely had them on numerous surfaces and many different situations. They began potty pad training as soon as they started leaving the whelping box. Before they are 12 weeks old I will also have them at at least one puppy party at the Daycare (hopefully two) and by 12 weeks they will be running with several more of my adults......Grandma DeeDee and Aunty Eve are already running and playing with them to some extent. They have both been introduced to the grooming table and minor grooming and will have at least two baths under their belt before 12 weeks old. I feel that the education that I can give them here far out weigh letting them go any earlier. When one of them leaves to go to his new home, he will be a very happy, well rounded puppy that takes most new situations in stride. 

This is just part of my job as a breeder but I feel it is very important, none the less. 

All of the breeders, that I know, spend a lot of time preparing their puppies for the real world. 12 weeks is actually a very short time period to do all that needs to be done for these little guys to be happy, well rounded puppies.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I know I've told you a million times, but your article about the 12 Week Rule is the best explanation I have ever read. I post that link over and over here.

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jul 4 2009, 11:44 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800873


> I know I've told you a million times, but your article about the 12 Week Rule is the best explanation I have ever read. I post that link over and over here.
> 
> http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm[/B]


 :ThankYou: 

It was a very easy article to write because of how strongly I feel concerning the subject and because of how much I love this breed!!!!! :wub: :wub:

I actually sat down and wrote the article one day after I had received a rather disturbing email from a person who had bought a 7 week old puppy that died..........it did not have hardly any teeth. I had received numerous emails such as that one (not all had such a tragic ending) and decided that I needed to try to do something to help these people who did not know. I am so glad that it has helped. I always said that if it helped one person from being taken advantage of, then I was happy.


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## Starsmom

I believe the 12 week rule was put in place for good reasons all mentioned prior to my post. I was not as informed as I am today, so I asked Star's breeder why she doesn't let the pups go before 12 weeks. She told me she wants to make sure they are developing properly, and they are started on socialization. I have no issue waiting to required time for a pup - if it translates to being healthy and well adjusted then so be it.


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## gq12o

every dog/pup/home/breeder is different, so its impossible to know which is better for that exact puppy; whether its at 8, 12, 14, 16, 20, or 100 weeks. i read that one malt without teeth was sold. now thats horrible. but like i said, my pup was eating dry kibble at 6 weeks. every dog is different. while bringing home a maltese at 12 weeks is most likely better than bringing he/she home at 8 weeks, an 8 week puppy could be more matured than a 12 depending on all the different circumstances. 

im not against getting pups at 12 or later at all. if its better for the puppy, then i'm all for it. im just a little peeved by people who come in and say "you shouldve got it at 12 weeks." without knowing the exact circumstances. whats done is done folks.


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## theboyz

gg120, the whole point is that the pups should not leave, or be sold, before 12 weeks. Yes, what is done is done, BUT if we can prevent someone from buying a pup before 12 weeks ( which is the best for the pups and new owners) by talking about it and educating people, lets do it!!
It is hard to believe a pup at 6 weeks was eating and being sustained on dry kibble. They still eat puppy mush at that age. They will roll the kibble around in their mouth but need more than that. Mom will still nurse for a few minutes at 6 weeks.
Exact circumstances I hope would be a rescue and not just buying a pup at that age.
Remember "Greeders" will say and do anything to sell their pups.



QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800930


> every dog/pup/home/breeder is different, so its impossible to know which is better for that exact puppy; whether its at 8, 12, 14, 16, 20, or 100 weeks. i read that one malt without teeth was sold. now thats horrible. but like i said, my pup was eating dry kibble at 6 weeks. every dog is different. while bringing home a maltese at 12 weeks is most likely better than bringing he/she home at 8 weeks, an 8 week puppy could be more matured than a 12 depending on all the different circumstances.
> 
> im not against getting pups at 12 or later at all. if its better for the puppy, then i'm all for it. im just a little peeved by people who come in and say "you shouldve got it at 12 weeks." without knowing the exact circumstances. whats done is done folks.[/B]


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (theboyz @ Jul 4 2009, 11:17 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800940


> gg120, the whole point is that the pups should not leave, or be sold, before 12 weeks. Yes, what is done is done, BUT if we can prevent someone from buying a pup before 12 weeks ( which is the best for the pups and new owners) by talking about it and educating people, lets do it!!
> It is hard to believe a pup at 6 weeks was eating and being sustained on dry kibble. They still eat puppy mush at that age. They will roll the kibble around in their mouth but need more than that. Mom will still nurse for a few minutes at 6 weeks.
> Exact circumstances I hope would be a rescue and not just buying a pup at that age.
> Remember "Greeders" will say and do anything to sell their pups.
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800930





> every dog/pup/home/breeder is different, so its impossible to know which is better for that exact puppy; whether its at 8, 12, 14, 16, 20, or 100 weeks. i read that one malt without teeth was sold. now thats horrible. but like i said, my pup was eating dry kibble at 6 weeks. every dog is different. while bringing home a maltese at 12 weeks is most likely better than bringing he/she home at 8 weeks, an 8 week puppy could be more matured than a 12 depending on all the different circumstances.
> 
> im not against getting pups at 12 or later at all. if its better for the puppy, then i'm all for it. im just a little peeved by people who come in and say "you shouldve got it at 12 weeks." without knowing the exact circumstances. whats done is done folks.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]


i also want to say that it wasn't you did something 'incorrect', it was the breeder you got your pup from. So this is definitely not something against you!! I can well understand your frustration though!! Believe me, i'd feel defensive also. Your breeder could be the nicest well-meaning lady/man in the world, and it still doesn't change how i would view them. For me, that time between 8-10 weeks is the time when i feel like I have to keep the closest eye on them. Make sure they are eating, drinking and that they don't get the dreaded poopy butt that can make them so sick if it's not addressed in a timely manner. 

I'm sorry if you are feeling personally attacked. your baby is a.d.o.r.a.b.l.e, btw.


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## theboyz

Good post Stacy. I agree, it is her breeder and not her. 
Yes gg12o, your baby is a doll!!! :wub:


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (theboyz @ Jul 4 2009, 03:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800977


> Good post Stacy. I agree, it is her breeder and not her.
> Yes gg12o, your baby is a doll!!! :wub:[/B]


I agree too!


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## 3Maltmom

I'm sorry you felt "attacked". I, for one, felt you were attacking the good members, of this forum,
over a very nice, short, informative thread (your barking thread). I could not figure out where you 
thought you were being attacked on that thread. 

Your pup is beautiful. Live long, and prosper, little one. Also, spread the word about BYB's, and Mills. :thumbsup: 

[attachment=54707:Spock2.jpg]


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## godiva goddess

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jul 4 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801011


> I'm sorry you felt "attacked". I, for one, felt you were attacking the good members, of this forum,
> over a very nice, short, informative thread (your barking thread). I could not figure out where you
> thought you were being attacked on that thread.
> 
> Your pup is beautiful. Live long, and prosper, little one. Also, spread the word about BYB's, and Mills. :thumbsup:
> 
> [attachment=54707:Spock2.jpg][/B]


Deb!! LOL!!!!!


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jul 4 2009, 04:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801013


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jul 4 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801011





> I'm sorry you felt "attacked". I, for one, felt you were attacking the good members, of this forum,
> over a very nice, short, informative thread (your barking thread). I could not figure out where you
> thought you were being attacked on that thread.
> 
> Your pup is beautiful. Live long, and prosper, little one. Also, spread the word about BYB's, and Mills. :thumbsup:
> 
> [attachment=54707:Spock2.jpg][/B]


Deb!! LOL!!!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

LMAO!!!


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 02:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800747


> I read about 85% of the posts in this topic, but i have to agree with this post 100%.
> I remember i posted a video about my dog's barking noise, and the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?"[/B]


I'm sorry but I do not understand :confused1: ....................I read your original introduction and I do not get where you say "the first 2 responses that i got sounded like "youre gonna get them after 12 weeks right?" " I could not find where they "sounded" anything like that.....sorry.

I also read several of your posts since your introduction and in a couple of them you said you were getting your puppy when she was around 11 weeks old.........but now you are saying that you got her at 7 weeks old :confused1: :confused1: not that it matters.....each to his own.........it is just very confusing.

BTW she is a darling puppy!!!!!!!!! 

Anyway, from reading the posts I could not find where anyone was negative or hostile to you.

However, I will say that I am extremely surprised to see such a young puppy given any lepto shots at all because according to CSU Veterinary Hospital, Lepto should never be given to a puppy under 12 weeks old. I am very happy that your puppy is OK and had no reactions.


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## gq12o

3maltmom: im not saying that i was attacked. i am just stating that a lot of folks here make it sound like bringing home a puppy before 12 weeks is wrong. no one threatens on this board.

vanitysmom:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...ic=45887&hl

"Twelve weeks is the aceptable age from a reputable breeder. " 
"I trust the babies are staying with the breeder until 12 weeks."

well, to me it does. 

I am not saying that anyone was hostile or negative towards me. All of you here are great and put the puppy first. i understand that. 

stacy: i never thought i was personally attacked. read above.

i guess i came across as someone who felt attacked. thats not that i wanted to convey. i wanted to say when someone brings home a puppy at 8 weeks, a lot of you reiterate that it shouldve been 12, when its already too late. 

and to all of you who complimented on HYO-RI (my pup) thank you. after looking at some dogs of breeders around here, and looking at malteses in korea, i knew i had to get one from korea. and luckily my friend was there and was able to bring it back. maybe the genes of maltese in korea are different, as she got her lepto at 6 weeks and was totally fine.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 09:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801102


> 3maltmom: im not saying that i was attacked. i am just stating that a lot of folks here make it sound like bringing home a puppy before 12 weeks is wrong. no one threatens on this board.
> 
> vanitysmom:
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...ic=45887&hl
> 
> "Twelve weeks is the aceptable age from a reputable breeder. "
> "I trust the babies are staying with the breeder until 12 weeks."
> 
> well, to me it does.
> 
> I am not saying that anyone was hostile or negative towards me. All of you here are great and put the puppy first. i understand that.
> 
> stacy: i never thought i was personally attacked. read above.
> 
> i guess i came across as someone who felt attacked. thats not that i wanted to convey. i wanted to say when someone brings home a puppy at 8 weeks, a lot of you reiterate that it shouldve been 12, when its already too late.
> 
> and to all of you who complimented on HYO-RI (my pup) thank you. after looking at some dogs of breeders around here, and looking at malteses in korea, i knew i had to get one from korea. and luckily my friend was there and was able to bring it back. maybe the genes of maltese in korea are different, as she got her lepto at 6 weeks and was totally fine.[/B]


Regarding why we bring up the 12-week rule when someone says they got a Malt at 8 weeks...... We do it to educate. Yes, they may find the information somewhere on the forum but we don't know that for sure. We do it also so they can be aware of potential problems down the road and can be pro-active. The information I have read says that the risk of hypoglycemia is drastically reduced after 12 weeks. So, we can let them know about hypoglycemia and how to treat it and how to prevent it. Also, a pup that leaves the "nest" at 8 weeks might be likely to do more puppy biting than one that has stayed longer.

If we just let the info sit out there ... "I got a puppy at 8 weeks"... and say nothing ... then we are not being as helpful in the long run. From what I recall, we always congratulate the owner... remark on the puppy's cuteness, etc. Most people are really glad we helped educate them on the 12-week rule and what a reputable breeder is. Yes, some get defensive... mostly because they are mad at themselves for not researching throughly or for being taken in by a less than reputable breeder. 

I bet that most all of us have bought at least one Malt from a BYB or pet store before we knew better. I know that I did. I also know that I will never do it again.


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## I found nemo

QUOTE (gq12o @ Jul 4 2009, 09:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801102


> 3maltmom: im not saying that i was attacked. i am just stating that a lot of folks here make it sound like bringing home a puppy before 12 weeks is wrong. no one threatens on this board.
> 
> vanitysmom:
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...ic=45887&hl
> 
> "Twelve weeks is the aceptable age from a reputable breeder. "
> "I trust the babies are staying with the breeder until 12 weeks."
> 
> well, to me it does.
> 
> I am not saying that anyone was hostile or negative towards me. All of you here are great and put the puppy first. i understand that.
> 
> stacy: i never thought i was personally attacked. read above.
> 
> i guess i came across as someone who felt attacked. thats not that i wanted to convey. i wanted to say when someone brings home a puppy at 8 weeks, a lot of you reiterate that it shouldve been 12, when its already too late.
> 
> and to all of you who complimented on HYO-RI (my pup) thank you. after looking at some dogs of breeders around here, and looking at malteses in korea, i knew i had to get one from korea. and luckily my friend was there and was able to bring it back. maybe the genes of maltese in korea are different, as she got her lepto at 6 weeks and was totally fine.[/B]


Aww your baby is gorgeous! :wub: :wub:


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## bbry

I guess what I can't understand is why this thread exists. We all have the right to purchase our puppy wherever we please. I chose to go to a show breeder that I thought had gorgeous pups. Should I then turn around and tell this person whose dogs I admire that I don't think she knows how old the pup should be before leaving home?? Makes no sense to me.

If you want to buy a dog from someone that lets them go at 8 weeks, then that is your prerogative but I see no reason to question the breeders who are trying to protect their puppies. Just don't buy one from them. I am glad that they do keep them until 12+ weeks for many reasons including their health and my money, not to even mention the heartbreak of losing one.

Have you ever held a helpless little puppy in your arms that you have fallen in love with, paid huge vet bills, and still watched it struggle, suffer and die? Saving just one puppy and one owner from this is reason enough for the 12 week rule.

Sometimes things that are "old school" just means they have been tested and found to be true.

By the way, Buttons was 16 weeks when I got him and well worth waiting for.


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## ilovemymaltese

Yup, "old school" works for me too. 

"My day, or your day, a snake is still a snake." one of my favorite quotes.


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## HaleysMom

Looking back, I could just kick myself for not doing more research before getting Haley. The person I received Haley from was very nice, seemed to know and love her dogs so I assumed she knew what she was doing(this is what I get for assuming  ). I had heard that puppies were not suppose to leave their Moms before 6 to 8 weeks.....I really did not know Maltese were different. I think there are so many people out there like me that were/are clueless about the 12 week rule.
I found out about it here on SM after I had Haley.....she was a little over 10 weeks when she came home with me. She had no problems eating, slept fine thru the night, did great with the potty pads BUT I could tell she did not learn all her puppy manners that she should have from her Mom and litter mates.
I fully admit I cringe when I read posts that state getting their puppies before 12 weeks since now I know what is best for the pups...
Then I remind myself that probably most of these new owners have no idea that they received their puppy to early but they do need a "heads up" because I'm betting if they did not know about the age the chances of knowing about low sugar would be slim.
I would definitely want to know....I mean this was one of the reasons I joined SM was because I wanted to learn all I could!


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## lorraine

Would just like to say here that reputable UK breeders let their pet Maltese puppies go at 10 weeks. Not saying it is right or wrong - it is just the way it is and there seem to be no more issues with our pups than I read about here. Possibly it is because our native-bred Maltese are, on the whole, a little larger than the US ones, possibly not but who can confirm yay or nay on that one?

I joined this forum whilst waiting for my little man and read everything you all had to say. Consequently, I delayed picking him up for as long as I dared. He was nearly 11 weeks old when he came home, but I said he was older when introducing him to the forum. After 3 years researching and waiting, I did not want my joy at finally getting a Maltese spoiled by the 12 week rule mantra, which of course I had read about many times.

He is now 3 years old and a stranger to the vet (apart from annual check ups). He was a very easy to train to potty, lead, commands and a great socializer, qualifying as a therapy dog at the youngest allowable age. He is above the upper UK standard weight at 7 3/4 lbs but a lean, mean, love machine nonetheless :wub:


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum

QUOTE (Lorraine @ Jul 5 2009, 10:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801208


> Would just like to say here that reputable UK breeders let their pet Maltese puppies go at 10 weeks. Not saying it is right or wrong - it is just the way it is and there seem to be no more issues with our pups than I read about here. Possibly it is because our native-bred Maltese are, on the whole, a little larger than the US ones, possibly not but who can confirm yay or nay on that one?
> 
> I joined this forum whilst waiting for my little man and read everything you all had to say. Consequently, I delayed picking him up for as long as I dared. He was nearly 11 weeks old when he came home, but I said he was older when introducing him to the forum. After 3 years researching and waiting, I did not want my joy at finally getting a Maltese spoiled by the 12 week rule mantra, which of course I had read about many times.
> 
> He is now 3 years old and a stranger to the vet (apart from annual check ups). He was a very easy to train to potty, lead, commands and a great socializer, qualifying as a therapy dog at the youngest allowable age. He is above the upper UK standard weight at 7 3/4 lbs but a lean, mean, love machine nonetheless :wub:[/B]



Nice, thanks Lorraine. I appreciate your eloquence.


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## bbry

QUOTE (Harley & Dakotas Mum @ Jul 5 2009, 09:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801223


> QUOTE (Lorraine @ Jul 5 2009, 10:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801208





> Would just like to say here that reputable UK breeders let their pet Maltese puppies go at 10 weeks. Not saying it is right or wrong - it is just the way it is and there seem to be no more issues with our pups than I read about here. Possibly it is because our native-bred Maltese are, on the whole, a little larger than the US ones, possibly not but who can confirm yay or nay on that one?
> 
> I joined this forum whilst waiting for my little man and read everything you all had to say. Consequently, I delayed picking him up for as long as I dared. He was nearly 11 weeks old when he came home, but I said he was older when introducing him to the forum. After 3 years researching and waiting, I did not want my joy at finally getting a Maltese spoiled by the 12 week rule mantra, which of course I had read about many times.
> 
> He is now 3 years old and a stranger to the vet (apart from annual check ups). He was a very easy to train to potty, lead, commands and a great socializer, qualifying as a therapy dog at the youngest allowable age. He is above the upper UK standard weight at 7 3/4 lbs but a lean, mean, love machine nonetheless :wub:[/B]



Nice, thanks Lorraine. I appreciate your eloquence.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I'm sure that weight does factor into the equation. When I brought my Yorkie home, she weighed 13 ounces- Although she is fine and healthy as a horse, I would never do that again. I actually think that because I wanted a "tiny", when the breeder sold Little Bit to me, she was not even as old as she said which I think she told me was 6 weeks. We went through a bout with coccidia when I first got her and the vets told me they didn't think she was as old as I thought she was because she didn't have the teeth she should have had. It turned out great because she is now a healthy 5 pounder laying beside me but it sure convinced me to go to a show breeder for Buttons and wait until he was 16 weeks. He is now a healthy 4# laying on the side Little Bit hasn't claimed. Actually because of allergies and grooming, Little Bit is much less expensive and time consuming to maintain than Buttons.


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## CrystalAndZoe

I got my Zoe from a byb. I had never heard the term before and didn't know better. I knew of puppy mills, but not byb's. They were letting them leave their mommy at 8 weeks and they told me their vet said 8 weeks was fine. I was not able to take her at 8 weeks and had read enough articles about the 12 week rule that I asked them to keep her until she was just a little over 10 weeks. She is larger than the breed standard so I'm sure that did help her in leaving her mom so early. But I will tell you as far as training goes, it was like a light bulb went on for her soon after she was 12 weeks old. So I'm inclined to believe the 12 week rule is for the betterment of not only the puppy, but for the successful transition to the new home. Through experience I have learned to only go to vets who really know and regularly treat toy breeds. I had to educate my very first vet on toy breeds and vaccines, and thankfully he was ok with the info I brought in because it was correct info from reliable places that I got from the threads here on SM. And I have to applaude and agree 100% with TotallyTotoNTuffy's post #9 about vet's expertise in certain areas as well as post #83 about vaccines. I'm not faulting vets, they have to know so much about so many different species and then all the different breeds within those species. And like with human medicine, medical doctors are just now realizing there is validitiy in nutrition, supplements and holistic treatments and the need to marry the two. I believe veterinary medicine will follow and is starting seeing how there are now vet nutritionists and holistic vet. Zoe never had trouble sleeping through the night nor has she had issues with separation anxiety and is as smart and easy to train as they come. However, she does not have the true Maltese temperament. She gets stressed very easily, has issues with fear aggression, and even though she loves me dearly, is very independent. We did the puppy classes and her stress level and fear of the 'clicker' noises was so great that my trainer came to my house personally to work with her. My trainer has a degree in animal behavior from Purdue University so I had an excellent trainer for her. So for my Zoe, is her temperament a result of bad breeding (genetics) or from leaving her mom and litter mates too early? Or do they go hand in hand?

My Jett is a rescue who I got at 13 months old. All I can say of his background is that he did come from a very reputable breeder. His temperament is one that is still astonishing me. People come into the store just to see him again. He has his very own fan club....literally! People are just shocked at his laid back, happy go lucky personality and if I could clone him I'd be a millionare by now because everyone who meets him wants him or one just like him. My Zoe loves me...actually she adores me. But my Jett worships me. No trouble bonding one little bit. And of the fosters I've had, the same thing is true. They have so attached themselves to me that it does cause issues between them and my Zoe.

So what is the reason of me even adding to this thread? ONE, I do feel it a good thing to educate people who have gotten a puppy from a puppy mill or byb, (Zoe's byb did not do this for greed but rather out of ignorance and are very nice people.) to help them look for signs of potential health and behavioral problems as well as help to educate others who may read that thread. BUT...I do think that once the issue has been addressed, it isn't necessary for others to continue to tell the person they got their baby too early. Now maybe there is some more advice that someone feels the need to share, but simply to again state that no reputible breeder would allow a puppy to leave their mother at 8 weeks may make the OP feel attacked or in defensive state. I think we are in such a hurry sometimes maybe we don't read all the posts and maybe don't realize the issue has already been addressed? TWO, I do feel that if reputible show breeders would be better at returning emails and phone calls, they could help put byb's and puppy mills out of business. When I was looking for a breeder for my Zoe, I did not get emails or phone calls returned once. And I emailed and called more than once so I finally looked locally. Of course that was back before I had the knowledge of everyone here on SM. But if that is why I turned to someone who wanted to breed their female one time for the 'experience', I know others would most likely do the same. Just recently I did have a breeder acknowledge my email with an automatic response that my email had been recieved but due to her schedule, it may take some time to get back to me. I think that a fantastic program to have as a show breeder because many people are unaware at how busy their schedules really can be and are often at shows.

For me personally and the experiences that I've had, my next Maltese will come from a show breeder and will be older than 12 weeks. From all the info I've gathered through SM and my own experience, they are much better socialized and tend to be better behaved when the breeder keeps them a little bit longer.


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## dr.jaimie

i just wanted to pop in and give my opinion. i havent read all the posts in here but have read most of them.
i wish all breeders would follow the 12 week rule. i believe it would eliminate a lot of problems i see behavior wise. but most puppies i see are under 12 weeks at their first visit. so i always go over bite inhibition, and messing with the pups ears feet etc as often as they can. i dont ever come out and say u shoudlnt have gotten this pup this early but i do tell them they learn most of this from their littermates so it is ur job to teach them properly. i get asked all the time why my malts are so calm and well behaved. even though parker was from a BYB i still didnt get him til he was 12 weeks and i can def see a difference. when we got mr brown he was not from the best breeder and i got her to keep him til he was 10 weeks...but all his siblings left early so that didnt help. we had a lot of behavior issues to deal with b/c of that. 
people will always comment..my last dog didnt have this issue as a puppy...and usually if u question, they got their pup at a later age. to me it makes a huge difference!

also as far as food....i feed my dogs natural balance...i reccommend it to all my clients...i wish they made a puppy pack i could give to all new pups.


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (Harley & Dakotas Mum @ Jul 5 2009, 10:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801223


> QUOTE (Lorraine @ Jul 5 2009, 10:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801208





> Would just like to say here that reputable UK breeders let their pet Maltese puppies go at 10 weeks. Not saying it is right or wrong - it is just the way it is and there seem to be no more issues with our pups than I read about here. Possibly it is because our native-bred Maltese are, on the whole, a little larger than the US ones, possibly not but who can confirm yay or nay on that one?
> 
> I joined this forum whilst waiting for my little man and read everything you all had to say. Consequently, I delayed picking him up for as long as I dared. He was nearly 11 weeks old when he came home, but I said he was older when introducing him to the forum. After 3 years researching and waiting, I did not want my joy at finally getting a Maltese spoiled by the 12 week rule mantra, which of course I had read about many times.
> 
> He is now 3 years old and a stranger to the vet (apart from annual check ups). He was a very easy to train to potty, lead, commands and a great socializer, qualifying as a therapy dog at the youngest allowable age. He is above the upper UK standard weight at 7 3/4 lbs but a lean, mean, love machine nonetheless :wub:[/B]



Nice, thanks Lorraine. I appreciate your eloquence.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. Lorraine, you made a good point, *different countries have different rules*, and we should not always jump to conclusions about the "12 week" rule and bad breeders, unless knowing what country they are in at least. Like you said, reputable breeders in other countries may have a "10 week rule".


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## vjw

QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Jul 5 2009, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801344


> i just wanted to pop in and give my opinion. i havent read all the posts in here but have read most of them.
> i wish all breeders would follow the 12 week rule. i believe it would eliminate a lot of problems i see behavior wise. but most puppies i see are under 12 weeks at their first visit. so i always go over bite inhibition, and messing with the pups ears feet etc as often as they can. i dont ever come out and say u shoudlnt have gotten this pup this early but i do tell them they learn most of this from their littermates so it is ur job to teach them properly. i get asked all the time why my malts are so calm and well behaved. even though parker was from a BYB i still didnt get him til he was 12 weeks and i can def see a difference. when we got mr brown he was not from the best breeder and i got her to keep him til he was 10 weeks...but all his siblings left early so that didnt help. we had a lot of behavior issues to deal with b/c of that.
> people will always comment..my last dog didnt have this issue as a puppy...and usually if u question, they got their pup at a later age. to me it makes a huge difference!
> 
> also as far as food....i feed my dogs natural balance...i reccommend it to all my clients...i wish they made a puppy pack i could give to all new pups.[/B]




Did you read the links I posted earlier from the ABRI and the AVSAB??? I would be willing to bet that the puppies you see which are obtained earlier haven't been to puppy class, and that's ONE of the whole points of getting the puppy earlier. 

One reason I'm so opinionated about this is that I know how strongly veterinary behaviorists feel about puppy socialization and the puppies attending puppy class. I've seen what they say in professional journals about puppy socialization. I'll shut up when a behavior organization such as the ABRI or AVSAB makes an exclusion for small breeds in their puppy socialization statements. 

I've written to get permission to copy a letter from the President of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior which was published in Clinician's Brief. This was a response to a veterinarian who questioned a puppy attending a puppy class before their vaccine series is up. Their bottom line is their puppy socialization recommendations are based on years of study and also a risk-benefit analysis. They stress in all their articles that the puppy classes must be in clean, controlled environments such as recommended in the AVSAB Puppy Socialization article. See the link in my previous post.

I may not get permission to post this article as written because you have to pay for the access to Clinician's Brief. If I don't, then I'll summarize what the letter says. 


Again, the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've read what veterinary behaviorists are recommending for optimal puppy socialization. They're recommending the owners acquire the puppies earlier and take the puppies to puppy classes which are in a clean environment. 

********

As for the Natural Balance recommendation, a lot of veterinary nutritional experts recommend you feed a dog food which states ANIMAL FEEDING tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate the food provides COMPLETE and BALANCED nutrition for maintenance of "____: age dog. 

I refuse to feed Natural Balance because last time I checked, the AAFCO statement on the NB label only states it's formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO. It doesn't mention anything about testing or being complete and balanced.




Joy


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## myfairlacy

I would never take a puppy to ANY training class until it was over 16 weeks old and had it's last DHPP vaccine. It would be insane to get a puppy at say 8 weeks and take it to a training/socialization class...can you say huge risk of getting parvo??? Just because the place is clean does not mean one of the other puppies in the class isn't carrying parvo. What if another puppy's owner took their puppy somewhere a few days before and it picked up parvo and hadn't started showing symptoms yet but passed it on to the other puppies in the class? So the argument about getting a puppy early and taking to a training class is just crazy in my opinion and very irresponsible. The puppy learns imprinting and socialization early from the mother and littermates...then you can continue that socialization after the puppy comes home.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Jul 5 2009, 06:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801439


> I would never take a puppy to ANY training class until it was over 16 weeks old and had it's last DHPP vaccine. It would be insane to get a puppy at say 8 weeks and take it to a training/socialization class...can you say huge risk of getting parvo??? Just because the place is clean does not mean one of the other puppies in the class isn't carrying parvo. What if another puppy's owner took their puppy somewhere a few days before and it picked up parvo and hadn't started showing symptoms yet but passed it on to the other puppies in the class? So the argument about getting a puppy early and taking to a training class is just crazy in my opinion and very irresponsible. The puppy learns imprinting and socialization early from the mother and littermates...then you can continue that socialization after the puppy comes home.[/B]


I agree... and what does "clean" mean... ?? ... There is just no way to know everything about the people and their dogs who might attend such a class. And is PetSmart considered "clean"... it's the only class I know of in my town and I doubt if I would go there. 

I think it is better for the breeder to keep the puppy and continue with socialization than to "trust" that the owner will do so.


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (Lorraine @ Jul 5 2009, 08:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801208


> *Would just like to say here that reputable UK breeders let their pet Maltese puppies go at 10 weeks.* Not saying it is right or wrong - it is just the way it is and there seem to be no more issues with our pups than I read about here. Possibly it is because our native-bred Maltese are, on the whole, a little larger than the US ones, possibly not but who can confirm yay or nay on that one?
> 
> I joined this forum whilst waiting for my little man and read everything you all had to say. Consequently, I delayed picking him up for as long as I dared. He was nearly 11 weeks old when he came home, but I said he was older when introducing him to the forum. After 3 years researching and waiting, I did not want my joy at finally getting a Maltese spoiled by the 12 week rule mantra, which of course I had read about many times.
> 
> He is now 3 years old and a stranger to the vet (apart from annual check ups). He was a very easy to train to potty, lead, commands and a great socializer, qualifying as a therapy dog at the youngest allowable age. He is above the upper UK standard weight at 7 3/4 lbs but a lean, mean, love machine nonetheless :wub:[/B]



You hit the nail on the head, girlfriend. Your country's reputable breeders, will not let them go before 10-weeks.
So you would NOT purchase one at 8-weeks. That would mean you purchased from an irresponible breeder.

So the US, AMA code of ethics is 12-weeks. And yes, there are certainly times the breeder will let them go at 11-weeks.
Depends on the circumstances, the individual dog, adoptive parents, etc. Also, some are held longer.

Now let's throw in another country, just a make believe one, who's reputable breeders sell at 16-weeks. 
If I were to live in that country, I would purchase a pooch at 16-weeks, as that would insure me of a reputable breeder, in that area.
Perhaps, NOT insure, but with research, this "rule" would eliminate much of the crap. 

We all have guidlines. No matter the country, we need to abide by them. Hopefully, get rid of the BYB's, no matter the country.

So right on, girlfriend!! You brought up a very good point ~ :thumbsup:


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jul 5 2009, 03:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801443


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Jul 5 2009, 06:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801439





> I would never take a puppy to ANY training class until it was over 16 weeks old and had it's last DHPP vaccine. It would be insane to get a puppy at say 8 weeks and take it to a training/socialization class...can you say huge risk of getting parvo??? Just because the place is clean does not mean one of the other puppies in the class isn't carrying parvo. What if another puppy's owner took their puppy somewhere a few days before and it picked up parvo and hadn't started showing symptoms yet but passed it on to the other puppies in the class? So the argument about getting a puppy early and taking to a training class is just crazy in my opinion and very irresponsible. The puppy learns imprinting and socialization early from the mother and littermates...then you can continue that socialization after the puppy comes home.[/B]


I agree... and what does "clean" mean... ?? ... There is just no way to know everything about the people and their dogs who might attend such a class. And is PetSmart considered "clean"... it's the only class I know of in my town and I doubt if I would go there. 

I think it is better for the breeder to keep the puppy and continue with socialization than to "trust" that the owner will do so.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Based on how DIRTY my dogs are after walking around my Petsmart - I'm going to say NO. not clean, LOL. 

I think it's important to socialize these pups outside of their comfort zone - but that doesn't include setting them down on the ground. At least, for me it doesn't.

ETA: I also wanted to thank those people who live in different countries where the rule isn't the same as here for letting us explain over and over again about the AMA's 12 week rule, when it's different in your country. Sorry you have to listen to it repetitively!


----------



## angel's mom

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 5 2009, 04:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801428


> QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Jul 5 2009, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801344





> i just wanted to pop in and give my opinion. i havent read all the posts in here but have read most of them.
> i wish all breeders would follow the 12 week rule. i believe it would eliminate a lot of problems i see behavior wise. but most puppies i see are under 12 weeks at their first visit. so i always go over bite inhibition, and messing with the pups ears feet etc as often as they can. i dont ever come out and say u shoudlnt have gotten this pup this early but i do tell them they learn most of this from their littermates so it is ur job to teach them properly. i get asked all the time why my malts are so calm and well behaved. even though parker was from a BYB i still didnt get him til he was 12 weeks and i can def see a difference. when we got mr brown he was not from the best breeder and i got her to keep him til he was 10 weeks...but all his siblings left early so that didnt help. we had a lot of behavior issues to deal with b/c of that.
> people will always comment..my last dog didnt have this issue as a puppy...and usually if u question, they got their pup at a later age. to me it makes a huge difference!
> 
> also as far as food....i feed my dogs natural balance...i reccommend it to all my clients...i wish they made a puppy pack i could give to all new pups.[/B]




Did you read the links I posted earlier from the ABRI and the AVSAB??? I would be willing to bet that the puppies you see which are obtained earlier haven't been to puppy class, and that's ONE of the whole points of getting the puppy earlier. 

One reason I'm so opinionated about this is that I know how strongly veterinary behaviorists feel about puppy socialization and the puppies attending puppy class. I've seen what they say in professional journals about puppy socialization. I'll shut up when a behavior organization such as the ABRI or AVSAB makes an exclusion for small breeds in their puppy socialization statements. 

I've written to get permission to copy a letter from the President of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior which was published in Clinician's Brief. This was a response to a veterinarian who questioned a puppy attending a puppy class before their vaccine series is up. Their bottom line is their puppy socialization recommendations are based on years of study and also a risk-benefit analysis. They stress in all their articles that the puppy classes must be in clean, controlled environments such as recommended in the AVSAB Puppy Socialization article. See the link in my previous post.

I may not get permission to post this article as written because you have to pay for the access to Clinician's Brief. If I don't, then I'll summarize what the letter says. 


Again, the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've read what veterinary behaviorists are recommending for optimal puppy socialization. They're recommending the owners acquire the puppies earlier and take the puppies to puppy classes which are in a clean environment. 

********

As for the Natural Balance recommendation, a lot of veterinary nutritional experts recommend you feed a dog food which states ANIMAL FEEDING tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate the food provides COMPLETE and BALANCED nutrition for maintenance of "____: age dog. 

I refuse to feed Natural Balance because last time I checked, the AAFCO statement on the NB label only states it's formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO. It doesn't mention anything about testing or being complete and balanced.




Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

Joy, if I may ask, what is your profession?


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jul 5 2009, 05:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801443


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Jul 5 2009, 06:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801439





> I would never take a puppy to ANY training class until it was over 16 weeks old and had it's last DHPP vaccine. It would be insane to get a puppy at say 8 weeks and take it to a training/socialization class...can you say huge risk of getting parvo??? Just because the place is clean does not mean one of the other puppies in the class isn't carrying parvo. What if another puppy's owner took their puppy somewhere a few days before and it picked up parvo and hadn't started showing symptoms yet but passed it on to the other puppies in the class? So the argument about getting a puppy early and taking to a training class is just crazy in my opinion and very irresponsible. The puppy learns imprinting and socialization early from the mother and littermates...then you can continue that socialization after the puppy comes home.[/B]


I agree... *and what does "clean" mean... ??* ... There is just no way to know everything about the people and their dogs who might attend such a class. And is PetSmart considered "clean"... it's the only class I know of in my town and I doubt if I would go there. 

I think it is better for the breeder to keep the puppy and continue with socialization than to "trust" that the owner will do so. 

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, what does that mean? All which is required, is updated vacs. Many vacs do NOT take effect for a couple weeks.

So what good is that, to a 9-week-old pup, who is NOT fully vaccinated in the first place. 

We've had a few pups, on this board, who passed as a result.


----------



## 08chrissy08

I would never, ever risk taking a puppy that was not fully vaccinated to place that would expose them to other dogs that may or may not also be vaccinated. It's not worth the risk. If I lost my baby due to that kind of negligence, I would never forgive myself.


----------



## puppy lover

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 5 2009, 05:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801428


> QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Jul 5 2009, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801344





> i just wanted to pop in and give my opinion. i havent read all the posts in here but have read most of them.
> i wish all breeders would follow the 12 week rule. i believe it would eliminate a lot of problems i see behavior wise. but most puppies i see are under 12 weeks at their first visit. so i always go over bite inhibition, and messing with the pups ears feet etc as often as they can. i dont ever come out and say u shoudlnt have gotten this pup this early but i do tell them they learn most of this from their littermates so it is ur job to teach them properly. i get asked all the time why my malts are so calm and well behaved. even though parker was from a BYB i still didnt get him til he was 12 weeks and i can def see a difference. when we got mr brown he was not from the best breeder and i got her to keep him til he was 10 weeks...but all his siblings left early so that didnt help. we had a lot of behavior issues to deal with b/c of that.
> people will always comment..my last dog didnt have this issue as a puppy...and usually if u question, they got their pup at a later age. to me it makes a huge difference!
> 
> also as far as food....i feed my dogs natural balance...i reccommend it to all my clients...i wish they made a puppy pack i could give to all new pups.[/B]




Did you read the links I posted earlier from the ABRI and the AVSAB??? I would be willing to bet that the puppies you see which are obtained earlier haven't been to puppy class, and that's ONE of the whole points of getting the puppy earlier. 

One reason I'm so opinionated about this is that I know how strongly veterinary behaviorists feel about puppy socialization and the puppies attending puppy class. I've seen what they say in professional journals about puppy socialization. I'll shut up when a behavior organization such as the ABRI or AVSAB makes an exclusion for small breeds in their puppy socialization statements. 

I've written to get permission to copy a letter from the President of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior which was published in Clinician's Brief. This was a response to a veterinarian who questioned a puppy attending a puppy class before their vaccine series is up. Their bottom line is their puppy socialization recommendations are based on years of study and also a risk-benefit analysis. They stress in all their articles that the puppy classes must be in clean, controlled environments such as recommended in the AVSAB Puppy Socialization article. See the link in my previous post.

I may not get permission to post this article as written because you have to pay for the access to Clinician's Brief. If I don't, then I'll summarize what the letter says. 


Again, the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've read what veterinary behaviorists are recommending for optimal puppy socialization. They're recommending the owners acquire the puppies earlier and take the puppies to puppy classes which are in a clean environment. 

********

As for the Natural Balance recommendation, a lot of veterinary nutritional experts recommend you feed a dog food which states ANIMAL FEEDING tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate the food provides COMPLETE and BALANCED nutrition for maintenance of "____: age dog. 

I refuse to feed Natural Balance because last time I checked, the AAFCO statement on the NB label only states it's formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO. It doesn't mention anything about testing or being complete and balanced.


[/B][/QUOTE]

Joy, I agree that SM'rs should be gentle with newcomers when educating, and I admire your search for the truth and your passion  . It was also interesting to learn more about both sides of this issue.

I'm far from an expert in this area, however just because something is evidence based and ends up in peer reviewed literature doesn't mean it's true. Figures lie, and liars figure. Science is ever changing. 

I would not trust studies that come from most medical or government organizations because the results are often tied to monetary gain. 
The pharmaceutical industry funds many studies put in peer reviewed medical journals. I'm wondering what the politics are behind the AVSAB.

Studies can give us information but ultimately common sense, intuition and the experience of others can be more help in finding the truth IMHO.

I'm sorry to say the AAFCO label does not mean anything  This organization is made up of representatives from the pet food and manufacturing companies, rendering companies, along with the USDA (they're supposed to inspect pet food but don't) and some other lame organizations. No one food is complete and balanced anyway, dogs need variety like we do. It seems to be an advertising gimmick. 
http://www.dogfoodscoop.com/dog-food-regulations.html#aafco

Thanks for bringing SM a different perspective,
Sunnie











l


----------



## Cosy

QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 6 2009, 01:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801736


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 5 2009, 05:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801428





> QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Jul 5 2009, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801344





> i just wanted to pop in and give my opinion. i havent read all the posts in here but have read most of them.
> i wish all breeders would follow the 12 week rule. i believe it would eliminate a lot of problems i see behavior wise. but most puppies i see are under 12 weeks at their first visit. so i always go over bite inhibition, and messing with the pups ears feet etc as often as they can. i dont ever come out and say u shoudlnt have gotten this pup this early but i do tell them they learn most of this from their littermates so it is ur job to teach them properly. i get asked all the time why my malts are so calm and well behaved. even though parker was from a BYB i still didnt get him til he was 12 weeks and i can def see a difference. when we got mr brown he was not from the best breeder and i got her to keep him til he was 10 weeks...but all his siblings left early so that didnt help. we had a lot of behavior issues to deal with b/c of that.
> people will always comment..my last dog didnt have this issue as a puppy...and usually if u question, they got their pup at a later age. to me it makes a huge difference!
> 
> also as far as food....i feed my dogs natural balance...i reccommend it to all my clients...i wish they made a puppy pack i could give to all new pups.[/B]




Did you read the links I posted earlier from the ABRI and the AVSAB??? I would be willing to bet that the puppies you see which are obtained earlier haven't been to puppy class, and that's ONE of the whole points of getting the puppy earlier. 

One reason I'm so opinionated about this is that I know how strongly veterinary behaviorists feel about puppy socialization and the puppies attending puppy class. I've seen what they say in professional journals about puppy socialization. I'll shut up when a behavior organization such as the ABRI or AVSAB makes an exclusion for small breeds in their puppy socialization statements. 

I've written to get permission to copy a letter from the President of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior which was published in Clinician's Brief. This was a response to a veterinarian who questioned a puppy attending a puppy class before their vaccine series is up. Their bottom line is their puppy socialization recommendations are based on years of study and also a risk-benefit analysis. They stress in all their articles that the puppy classes must be in clean, controlled environments such as recommended in the AVSAB Puppy Socialization article. See the link in my previous post.

I may not get permission to post this article as written because you have to pay for the access to Clinician's Brief. If I don't, then I'll summarize what the letter says. 


Again, the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've read what veterinary behaviorists are recommending for optimal puppy socialization. They're recommending the owners acquire the puppies earlier and take the puppies to puppy classes which are in a clean environment. 

********

As for the Natural Balance recommendation, a lot of veterinary nutritional experts recommend you feed a dog food which states ANIMAL FEEDING tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate the food provides COMPLETE and BALANCED nutrition for maintenance of "____: age dog. 

I refuse to feed Natural Balance because last time I checked, the AAFCO statement on the NB label only states it's formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO. It doesn't mention anything about testing or being complete and balanced.


[/B][/QUOTE]

Joy, I agree that SM'rs should be gentle with newcomers when educating, and I admire your search for the truth and your passion  . It was also interesting to learn more about both sides of this issue.

I'm far from an expert in this area, however just because something is evidence based and ends up in peer reviewed literature doesn't mean it's true. Figures lie, and liars figure. Science is ever changing. 

I would not trust studies that come from most medical or government organizations because the results are often tied to monetary gain. 
The pharmaceutical industry funds many studies put in peer reviewed medical journals. I'm wondering what the politics are behind the AVSAB.

Studies can give us information but ultimately common sense, intuition and the experience of others can be more help in finding the truth IMHO.

I'm sorry to say the AAFCO label does not mean anything  This organization is made up of representatives from the pet food and manufacturing companies, rendering companies, along with the USDA (they're supposed to inspect pet food but don't) and some other lame organizations. No one food is complete and balanced anyway, dogs need variety like we do. It seems to be an advertising gimmick. 
http://www.dogfoodscoop.com/dog-food-regulations.html#aafco

Thanks for bringing SM a different perspective,
Sunnie

l
[/B][/QUOTE]


Here'a the link to NB's testing and statement of NO animals being used in testing. It's a lot to put on a bag of dog food, let alone
a can.




http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/NB_testing.html


----------



## vjw

QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 6 2009, 02:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801736


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 5 2009, 05:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801428





> QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Jul 5 2009, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801344





> i just wanted to pop in and give my opinion. i havent read all the posts in here but have read most of them.
> i wish all breeders would follow the 12 week rule. i believe it would eliminate a lot of problems i see behavior wise. but most puppies i see are under 12 weeks at their first visit. so i always go over bite inhibition, and messing with the pups ears feet etc as often as they can. i dont ever come out and say u shoudlnt have gotten this pup this early but i do tell them they learn most of this from their littermates so it is ur job to teach them properly. i get asked all the time why my malts are so calm and well behaved. even though parker was from a BYB i still didnt get him til he was 12 weeks and i can def see a difference. when we got mr brown he was not from the best breeder and i got her to keep him til he was 10 weeks...but all his siblings left early so that didnt help. we had a lot of behavior issues to deal with b/c of that.
> people will always comment..my last dog didnt have this issue as a puppy...and usually if u question, they got their pup at a later age. to me it makes a huge difference!
> 
> also as far as food....i feed my dogs natural balance...i reccommend it to all my clients...i wish they made a puppy pack i could give to all new pups.[/B]




Did you read the links I posted earlier from the ABRI and the AVSAB??? I would be willing to bet that the puppies you see which are obtained earlier haven't been to puppy class, and that's ONE of the whole points of getting the puppy earlier. 

One reason I'm so opinionated about this is that I know how strongly veterinary behaviorists feel about puppy socialization and the puppies attending puppy class. I've seen what they say in professional journals about puppy socialization. I'll shut up when a behavior organization such as the ABRI or AVSAB makes an exclusion for small breeds in their puppy socialization statements. 

I've written to get permission to copy a letter from the President of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior which was published in Clinician's Brief. This was a response to a veterinarian who questioned a puppy attending a puppy class before their vaccine series is up. Their bottom line is their puppy socialization recommendations are based on years of study and also a risk-benefit analysis. They stress in all their articles that the puppy classes must be in clean, controlled environments such as recommended in the AVSAB Puppy Socialization article. See the link in my previous post.

I may not get permission to post this article as written because you have to pay for the access to Clinician's Brief. If I don't, then I'll summarize what the letter says. 


Again, the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've read what veterinary behaviorists are recommending for optimal puppy socialization. They're recommending the owners acquire the puppies earlier and take the puppies to puppy classes which are in a clean environment. 

********

As for the Natural Balance recommendation, a lot of veterinary nutritional experts recommend you feed a dog food which states ANIMAL FEEDING tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate the food provides COMPLETE and BALANCED nutrition for maintenance of "____: age dog. 

I refuse to feed Natural Balance because last time I checked, the AAFCO statement on the NB label only states it's formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO. It doesn't mention anything about testing or being complete and balanced.


[/B][/QUOTE]

Joy, I agree that SM'rs should be gentle with newcomers when educating, and I admire your search for the truth and your passion  . It was also interesting to learn more about both sides of this issue.

I'm far from an expert in this area, however just because something is evidence based and ends up in peer reviewed literature doesn't mean it's true. Figures lie, and liars figure. Science is ever changing. 

I would not trust studies that come from most medical or government organizations because the results are often tied to monetary gain. 
The pharmaceutical industry funds many studies put in peer reviewed medical journals. I'm wondering what the politics are behind the AVSAB.

Studies can give us information but ultimately common sense, intuition and the experience of others can be more help in finding the truth IMHO.

I'm sorry to say the AAFCO label does not mean anything  This organization is made up of representatives from the pet food and manufacturing companies, rendering companies, along with the USDA (they're supposed to inspect pet food but don't) and some other lame organizations. No one food is complete and balanced anyway, dogs need variety like we do. It seems to be an advertising gimmick. 
http://www.dogfoodscoop.com/dog-food-regulations.html#aafco

Thanks for bringing SM a different perspective,
Sunnie





l
[/B][/QUOTE]



I do see that critique of the AAFCO, but it's usually on dog food sites in which their food doesn't meet the AAFCO standards.

UC Davis, the number two ranked Veterinary School, and the Veterinary School with the largest veterinary nutrition and veterinary residency program has this on their site:


_Q What's the best commercial pet food?


Any pet food that is complete and balanced will be equivalent to any other. Excess vitamins and minerals will simply be excreted. A diet that is complete and balanced will carry a statement such as "complete and balanced for [the
appropriate stage of life] as determined by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) protocol animal testing" on the packaging. The important words in the statement are AAFCO and animal testing. 

--Quinton Rogers, PhD, professor
of molecular biosciences_




Here's the entire link:

UC Davis' "What's Best for my Pet?"



I see this same statement made by Veterinary faculty all the time and that's why I'm feeding my dogs food that state they are complete and balanced and have been tested.






Joy


----------



## vjw

See this thread for further info:


SM Link






Joy


----------



## Kutsmail1

I'm not about to bring one home under 2 pounds. I have known people even with other breeds who have had their puppies die because they didn't understand the nutritional needs of a puppy this small. Zippy was barely over 2 pounds, but I watched her like a hawk because she was way too busy to eat. I had to catch her most of the time to feed her.

Also, she was so well socialized. I have NEVER had a problem with her and other dogs who visit. She welcomes anyone coming into the house, and feels her job as the hostess is to orient them to all of the toys she owns upstairs and downstairs. 

After the little rescue maltese I had, there is no way I would go back to that. 

I'm glad you are researching this. Will watch for further posts.


----------



## puppy lover

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 8 2009, 12:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802680


> QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 6 2009, 02:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801736





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 5 2009, 05:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801428





> QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Jul 5 2009, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=801344





> i just wanted to pop in and give my opinion. i havent read all the posts in here but have read most of them.
> i wish all breeders would follow the 12 week rule. i believe it would eliminate a lot of problems i see behavior wise. but most puppies i see are under 12 weeks at their first visit. so i always go over bite inhibition, and messing with the pups ears feet etc as often as they can. i dont ever come out and say u shoudlnt have gotten this pup this early but i do tell them they learn most of this from their littermates so it is ur job to teach them properly. i get asked all the time why my malts are so calm and well behaved. even though parker was from a BYB i still didnt get him til he was 12 weeks and i can def see a difference. when we got mr brown he was not from the best breeder and i got her to keep him til he was 10 weeks...but all his siblings left early so that didnt help. we had a lot of behavior issues to deal with b/c of that.
> people will always comment..my last dog didnt have this issue as a puppy...and usually if u question, they got their pup at a later age. to me it makes a huge difference!
> 
> also as far as food....i feed my dogs natural balance...i reccommend it to all my clients...i wish they made a puppy pack i could give to all new pups.[/B]




Did you read the links I posted earlier from the ABRI and the AVSAB??? I would be willing to bet that the puppies you see which are obtained earlier haven't been to puppy class, and that's ONE of the whole points of getting the puppy earlier. 

One reason I'm so opinionated about this is that I know how strongly veterinary behaviorists feel about puppy socialization and the puppies attending puppy class. I've seen what they say in professional journals about puppy socialization. I'll shut up when a behavior organization such as the ABRI or AVSAB makes an exclusion for small breeds in their puppy socialization statements. 

I've written to get permission to copy a letter from the President of the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior which was published in Clinician's Brief. This was a response to a veterinarian who questioned a puppy attending a puppy class before their vaccine series is up. Their bottom line is their puppy socialization recommendations are based on years of study and also a risk-benefit analysis. They stress in all their articles that the puppy classes must be in clean, controlled environments such as recommended in the AVSAB Puppy Socialization article. See the link in my previous post.

I may not get permission to post this article as written because you have to pay for the access to Clinician's Brief. If I don't, then I'll summarize what the letter says. 


Again, the reason I feel so strongly about this is because I've read what veterinary behaviorists are recommending for optimal puppy socialization. They're recommending the owners acquire the puppies earlier and take the puppies to puppy classes which are in a clean environment. 

********

As for the Natural Balance recommendation, a lot of veterinary nutritional experts recommend you feed a dog food which states ANIMAL FEEDING tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate the food provides COMPLETE and BALANCED nutrition for maintenance of "____: age dog. 

I refuse to feed Natural Balance because last time I checked, the AAFCO statement on the NB label only states it's formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO. It doesn't mention anything about testing or being complete and balanced.


[/B][/QUOTE]

Joy, I agree that SM'rs should be gentle with newcomers when educating, and I admire your search for the truth and your passion  . It was also interesting to learn more about both sides of this issue.

I'm far from an expert in this area, however just because something is evidence based and ends up in peer reviewed literature doesn't mean it's true. Figures lie, and liars figure. Science is ever changing. 

I would not trust studies that come from most medical or government organizations because the results are often tied to monetary gain. 
The pharmaceutical industry funds many studies put in peer reviewed medical journals. I'm wondering what the politics are behind the AVSAB.

Studies can give us information but ultimately common sense, intuition and the experience of others can be more help in finding the truth IMHO.

I'm sorry to say the AAFCO label does not mean anything  This organization is made up of representatives from the pet food and manufacturing companies, rendering companies, along with the USDA (they're supposed to inspect pet food but don't) and some other lame organizations. No one food is complete and balanced anyway, dogs need variety like we do. It seems to be an advertising gimmick. 
http://www.dogfoodscoop.com/dog-food-regulations.html#aafco

Thanks for bringing SM a different perspective,
Sunnie





l
[/B][/QUOTE]



I do see that critique of the AAFCO, but it's usually on dog food sites in which their food doesn't meet the AAFCO standards.

UC Davis, the number two ranked Veterinary School, and the Veterinary School with the largest veterinary nutrition and veterinary residency program has this on their site:


_Q What's the best commercial pet food?


Any pet food that is complete and balanced will be equivalent to any other. Excess vitamins and minerals will simply be excreted. A diet that is complete and balanced will carry a statement such as "complete and balanced for [the
appropriate stage of life] as determined by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) protocol animal testing" on the packaging. The important words in the statement are AAFCO and animal testing. 

--Quinton Rogers, PhD, professor
of molecular biosciences_




Here's the entire link:

UC Davis' "What's Best for my Pet?"



I see this same statement made by Veterinary faculty all the time and that's why I'm feeding my dogs food that state they are complete and balanced and have been tested.






Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

This critique of the AAFCO is from the book Food Pets Die for. The book is one of the best on the subject and they're not selling dog food. The AAFCO is a corrupt organization representing corporate interests.

http://www.homevet.com/petcare/foodbook.html

The AAFCO is like the FDA - both are responsible for creating much illness and DEATH in both people and pets.

Again, by saying that the "experts" say this or that doesn't mean anything to me because studies can be skewed and having a Phd doesn't make someone smart. In fact, when you say a medical organization promotes such and such, I become extra cautious. 

As far as the 12 week rule, I'm glad you shed some light that there can be a little wiggle room  .


----------



## Nikki's Mom

The OP said:

[/QUOTE]



_I would not trust studies that come from most medical or government organizations because the results are often tied to monetary gain. 
The pharmaceutical industry funds many studies put in peer reviewed medical journals. I'm wondering what the politics are behind the AVSAB.

Studies can give us information but ultimately common sense, intuition and the experience of others can be more help in finding the truth IMHO.

I'm sorry to say the AAFCO label does not mean anything  This organization is made up of representatives from the pet food and manufacturing companies, rendering companies, along with the USDA (they're supposed to inspect pet food but don't) and some other lame organizations. No one food is complete and balanced anyway, dogs need variety like we do. It seems to be an advertising gimmick. 
http://www.dogfoodscoop.com/dog-food-regulations.html#aafco

Thanks for bringing SM a different perspective,
Sunnie_


_This critique of the AAFCO is from the book Food Pets Die for. The book is one of the best on the subject and they're not selling dog food. The AAFCO is a corrupt organization representing corporate interests.

http://www.homevet.com/petcare/foodbook.html

The AAFCO is like the FDA - both are responsible for creating much illness and DEATH in both people and pets.

Again, by saying that the "experts" say this or that doesn't mean anything to me because studies can be skewed and having a Phd doesn't make someone smart. In fact, when you say a medical organization promotes such and such, I become extra cautious. 




:goodpost: :amen: 
_


----------



## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (Kutsmail1 @ Jul 11 2009, 09:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=804085


> I'm not about to bring one home under 2 pounds. I have known people even with other breeds who have had their puppies die because they didn't understand the nutritional needs of a puppy this small. Zippy was barely over 2 pounds, but I watched her like a hawk because she was way too busy to eat. I had to catch her most of the time to feed her.
> 
> Also, she was so well socialized. I have NEVER had a problem with her and other dogs who visit. She welcomes anyone coming into the house, and feels her job as the hostess is to orient them to all of the toys she owns upstairs and downstairs.
> 
> After the little rescue maltese I had, there is no way I would go back to that.
> 
> I'm glad you are researching this. Will watch for further posts.[/B]


I must agree with the tiny puppy thing, my first maltese puppy was barely one pound when we got her, it's so dangerous, I think as a breeder of small dogs, I would not even want an owner to get a puppy less than 2 pounds, regardless of age.


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## mi_ku_5

8 pages on a topic that's already been discussed to death! OP, when you start breeding dogs you can do things your way, but I trust the breeders who've devoted decades to bettering the breed over any study you can provide. Also, you seem to be fighting a loosing battle b/c more and more breeders of large breed dogs are keeping their pups until 10 or even 12 weeks. I got my own Rottweiler pup at 10wks and I fully believe his extra weeks with his mom, littermates and other dogs in the household are why he was so easy to housebreak, crate train, obedience train and leash train. Harley was never, and I mean never mouthy and has never shown any dog aggression.


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## bek74

In Aussie we have a 10wk rule. Breeders release the babies to their new homes at 10wks and no younger (excluding byb and petshops of course).
I support 10-12wks, you guys say 12wks in the US and we say 10wks in Aussie. I do feel if the pup is going to be left at home all day unattended the pup should be slightly older and of good weight.


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