# Vet recommended Royal Canin SO-opinions?



## Lilly's Mommy (Apr 28, 2011)

I can't believe it's a new year. Last year :blink: Lily had some peeing accidents&seemed to have less control of her bowels. When she gets nervous she poops(vet claims that's normal) & I thought the peeing incidents were related to life transitions (new people in house,etc) except it started to happen more. She also started to lick/mess with her vaginal area. I couldn't catch her urine(she uses a litter box&is super quick) so after a few months I let the vet do it b/c I was concerned something was actually wrong. She ended up having a very bad UTI and needed two rounds of antibiotics. After this the UA showed no bacteria but there were crystals found in the urine on two subsequent samples. 

I'm trying to get her to drink more water but the vet recommended she switches from the limited ingredient natural balance duck&potato(she has allergies) food she's on to a royal canin SO diet. She said it'll prevent the crystals from turning into stones. The only symptom she still has is she seems to check herself out down there sometimes. 

Have any of you used the Royal Canin SO diet? I'm careful about what I give her so I'm kind of nervous about a prescription diet.


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## Missyboo (Mar 20, 2013)

When Fonzi was a puppy, the Vet recommended Royal Canin. He did well on it for a few months. I then noticed he would be biting his front paws. Also was itching all over. I switched his food to Blue Buffalo. I read the ingredients in Royal Canin, I noticed there was lots of fillers and Gluten.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Poor Lily - I am sorry she has had a tough time.
The puppy we recently adopted, Bunnie, had crystals recently too. She was having lots of little accidents. Our vet recommended a supplement, Vetriscience UT Strength. She was on it for a month, then we re-tested, and the crystals were gone. We are continuing with a low dose to prevent them from coming back. Maybe you could ask your vet if it would be okay to try this supplement, or another one your vet recommends, first?

It would be a shame to change Lilys food and have her have any kind of reaction to it. I looked up the ingredients and the first few are brewers yeast, corn, chicken fat and chicken meal. For a dog with allergies, corn as the second ingredient could be a big problem, and the protein sources are not great. No "real" chicken, just chicken fat and chicken meal. It looks like a poor quality food to which they have added supplements. To me, it seems like it makes more sense to keep her on a good quality food that she is doing well on, and add the supplements separately. (but of course I am not a vet so please check with your vet!  ) I think it is so important for their overall health that they eat a high quality food.

Here is the link for the supplement in case you want to check it out. Based on Bunnie's weight, our vet prescribed the feline version, which is the exact same thing, just dosed for smaller pets. It is much less expensive (around $10 for a four month supply). I hope Lily is better soon!

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Vetri-Science-Strength-Everyday-Canine-Bite-Sized/dp/B005BSWKXQ]Amazon.com: Vetri-Science UT Strength Everyday Canine, 60 Bite-Sized Chews: Pet Supplies[/ame]


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Kathleen said:


> Poor Lily - I am sorry she has had a tough time.
> The puppy we recently adopted, Bunnie, had crystals recently too. She was having lots of little accidents. Our vet recommended a supplement, Vetriscience UT Strength. She was on it for a month, then we re-tested, and the crystals were gone. We are continuing with a low dose to prevent them from coming back. Maybe you could ask your vet if it would be okay to try this supplement, or another one your vet recommends, first?
> 
> It would be a shame to change Lilys food and have her have any kind of reaction to it. I looked up the ingredients and the first few are brewers yeast, corn, chicken fat and chicken meal. For a dog with allergies, corn as the second ingredient could be a big problem, and the protein sources are not great. No "real" chicken, just chicken fat and chicken meal. It looks like a poor quality food to which they have added supplements. To me, it seems like it makes more sense to keep her on a good quality food that she is doing well on, and add the supplements separately. (but of course I am not a vet so please check with your vet!  ) I think it is so important for their overall health that they eat a high quality food.
> ...


Kathleen, how much of this did you give per day? How big is your baby? I want to order some of the feline one but need to know how much to order?


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

edelweiss said:


> Kathleen, how much of this did you give per day? How big is your baby? I want to order some of the feline one but need to know how much to order?


Bunnie is 8 pounds. She took a half of a chew twice per day to dissolve the crystals. She now takes half of a chew once a day for maintenance, so the 60 chew bag lasts 120 days for us. (the feline version).


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks!


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Hope you have good luck with it!


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Several years ago Sweetness had problems with recurring UTSs and both struvite and oxalate crystals. I used one bag of the royal canin while I researched other options. I wound up putting her on a lower protein food (addiction dehydrated raw) that I reconstitute with more than the recommended amount of water. My vet also suggested adding Cosequin -1/2 of a bonelet daily. The vet said that Cosequin has been shown to reduce crystals and UTIs in cats and she's seen it help dogs too.

I also eliminated all foods that are high in oxalates, such as sweet potatoes. And once a month she does a few days on Animal Essentials' Tinkle Tonic. She hasn't had a UTI in over 3 years, and is no longer eating the RC urinary SO. 

Good luck!


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Maggie, have you had Sweetness' urine retested to see if there are fewer crystals?

My Butchie, 9 year old neutered probably mixed Maltese and poodle, has been on the SO for a while because of oxalate crystals. I've been wondering how much good it is doing him and whether adding more water to a non-prescription diet might help. 

I had another, smaller male that had to have stone surgery in his later years. He was full of oxalate stones. I would hate to have Butchie have to go through that!


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Lilly'sMommy, do you know what kind of crystals she had? I think there is a difference in how they are treated. I read and was told that oxalate are more difficult and that treatment is largely to avoid oxalate in food.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

mss said:


> Maggie, have you had Sweetness' urine retested to see if there are fewer crystals?


Yes, perfectly normal.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

The regular Royal Canin is not the same as the Royal Canin SO. After having bladder surgery last May to remove 2 large oxalate bladder stones, Sassy is now on Royal Canin SO which can be purchased by Rx only. She also takes a supplement 2x per day for 7 days each month. From what I have found thru research is that the Royal Canin SO is the best Rx food for dogs who are prone to bladder stones.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Jett had CaOx crystals a few years ago when we moved. The stress of the move was the catalyst for him but often it's lack of moisture in dry kibble. We were able to take care of them with Animal Essentials Tinkle Tonic. Since then I've worked with many customers dogs that have had both CaOx and struvite crystals and we have always been able to get rid of them with adding moisture to the food and Tinkle Tonic. Jett's never had one since but for those that have a history of chronic UTI's, crystals and stones, there is a preventive protocol. That is what Tessa is on. My new vet has seen it work even better then the holistic treatment she had been using so now it's her first choice of treatment.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-maltese-health-behavior/117369-jetts-urinalysis-results.html


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> JJett's never had one since but for those that have a history of chronic UTI's, crystals and stones, there is a preventive protocol. That is what Tessa is on. My new vet has seen it work even better then the holistic treatment she had been using so now it's her first choice of treatment.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-maltese-health-behavior/117369-jetts-urinalysis-results.html


It's actually Sweetness who is on the protocol, but that's OK, Auntie Crystal!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

maggieh said:


> It's actually Sweetness who is on the protocol, but that's OK, Auntie Crystal!


LOL....forgive me! It was 11:30 at night. :blush:


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

I would never support Royal Canin. I would feed Science Diet before Royal Canin. There is also the Canine Caviar special needs diet that is often used instead of the other prescription brands. You might ask your vet if that would work.


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## Madeleinesmommy (Nov 30, 2012)

My brother's dog is on Royal Canine CD food. I believe that's the brand. It's really hard because she'd rather starve herself than eat that food. I wish I had advice. Good luck!


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

I have had similar issues with Coco in the past.
She had struvite crystals in her urine. (More evidence she could be a Bichon/Maltese mix) 
Her food currently is 1/3 kibble (Holistic Blend Lamb & Rice) with water added, 1/3 canned & 1/3 homecooked.

I also supplement with Cranimals cranberry powder.
And with Herbsmith Bladder Care for Dogs & Cats.

I make sure she has water access 24/7.
I filter it.
And for allergies she is on meds seasonally & salmon oil too.
I also give her natural yogurt to eat and will put a dab of anti fungal cream on her privates, and sometimes put bitter apple next to the area, not on there, but near. 

She has been superb recently.  
Her siblings also get the supplements, just in case.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Just to clarify, there is a difference in crystals and stones. Oxalate stones can not be dissolved once they are formed, the only way to remove them is thru surgery. The Royal Canin SO also has a little higher salt content which promotes more water consumption. Thus, more frequent urination and diluted urine so crystals are not sitting inside the bladder. There is a big difference in the Rx foods vs the regular foods even by the same maker.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

sassy's mommy said:


> Just to clarify, there is a difference in crystals and stones. Oxalate stones can not be dissolved once they are formed, the only way to remove them is thru surgery. The Royal Canin SO also has a little higher salt content which promotes more water consumption. Thus, more frequent urination and diluted urine so crystals are not sitting inside the bladder. There is a big difference in the Rx foods vs the regular foods even by the same maker.


Yes to the above--and I also think the ingredients are low in oxalate.

My understanding is that calcium oxalate crystal and stone formation has a metabolic cause while at least one other type of crystal (struvite) is the result of infection.

I don't think my Spunky ever had a bacterial infection.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

What type of crystals? What is the urine pH? Has a urine culture and sensitivity been performed? Has an x-ray been taken? 

I have a dog that produces calcium oxalate stones like they're tasty candy. The Royal Canin SO is the only food we have success with. Depending on the type of crystals, you can do a home cooked diet. 

Please DO NOT add any product to change urine pH without knowing what your dog's pH is, which way you need to change it, and checking pH routinely to be sure you are doing what you mean to do. You can actually make things much worse by blindly altering the pH of the urine.


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## BeautifulMaltese (Dec 4, 2013)

I had to use Royal Canin prescription for my Zoe as she had a pancreas problem and could no longer tolerate Wellness. I wasn't happy about using it but what I did was just use the kibbles and supplemented with home organic cooked chicken, carrots, sweet potatos, a little broccoli and occasionally some dandelion greens if I could find it at the store. All boiled together like a stew and then I would freeze little individual containters of it so I would have it for a few weeks. I also mixed in chopped apples on occasion and every few days she got a tablespoon of plain yogurt. My vet approved of the diet and she loved it.

Check with your vet first, but maybe you can limit the RC a little and supplement with a little home cooked stew like I did. I know how you feel though - I'm very picky about what I feed my little ones!


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## BeautifulMaltese (Dec 4, 2013)

Sorry, I just realized the sweet potatos might not be a good option for you given the condition! Of course, always check with your vet when supplementing the diet especially when they are on a prescription diet. My vet was okay with what I was doing but much different situation!

Good luck!


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## Chardy (Oct 30, 2008)

Lilly's Mommy said:


> I can't believe it's a new year. Last year :blink: Lily had some peeing accidents&seemed to have less control of her bowels. When she gets nervous she poops(vet claims that's normal) & I thought the peeing incidents were related to life transitions (new people in house,etc) except it started to happen more. She also started to lick/mess with her vaginal area. I couldn't catch her urine(she uses a litter box&is super quick) so after a few months I let the vet do it b/c I was concerned something was actually wrong. She ended up having a very bad UTI and needed two rounds of antibiotics. After this the UA showed no bacteria but there were crystals found in the urine on two subsequent samples.
> 
> I'm trying to get her to drink more water but the vet recommended she switches from the limited ingredient natural balance duck&potato(she has allergies) food she's on to a royal canin SO diet. She said it'll prevent the crystals from turning into stones. The only symptom she still has is she seems to check herself out down there sometimes.
> 
> Have any of you used the Royal Canin SO diet? I'm careful about what I give her so I'm kind of nervous about a prescription diet.


Dr Becker has many articles out there on all of this. Here is one of them-

These 3 Things May Indicate Your Pet has a Bladder Problem


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Speaking of oxalate foods, I know a lot of Malt moms give their little ones baby carrots as treats. BAD idea if your dog is prone to oxalate stones, carrots are a high oxalate food.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Whole Dog Journal had several very good articles on crystals and stones in 2010 - it would be worth the subscription to get access to the back issues.


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## Lilly's Mommy (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for all the wonderful replies. I asked the vet about dietary supplements because my sister in law used some cranberry/uti formula for her cats,after a few friends highly recommended it, and it really helped them. The vet said that any type of cranberry supplement wouldn't be good. I prefer natural and holistic approaches so I wasn't happy to hear that. 

They told me UTI's are more commonly caused by infection than diet because I was concerned about dietary elements leading to crystal and eventually stone formation. Being a nurse I know that proper nutrition can be the best medicine, but the vet didn't seem to think the nutritional aspect of treatment applied in this case. I don't agree which is why I was scared to switch Lily to another food that may cause her to have more allergy and skin problems.

I don't give her anything that contains grain,soy,gluten,dairy,chicken, or beef. Ever since we got her and switched to the duck&potato & limited her treats she scratches less and doesn't lick her paws till they're red. I asked the vet whether this would be a temporary switch or not and the office said that it's normally a long term thing. I don't think that's a great idea, any suggestions? This was her first UTI/bladder problem since we got her at 6 months.

I've been encouraging her to drink more water(she's more apt to drink if you hold a water bottle for her and let her drink out of it) and giving her ice cold water as much as possible. She only drinks the gerber bottled nursery water, and she takes a nordic naturals fish oil supplement to help with her allergies and dry skin. 


They did a culture and sensitivity after her second round of antibiotics and she was clear of infection, rbc's, and wbc's. They thought her post antibiotic urine developed crystals on its way to the lab so they did a second urine collection and it had crystals as well. She hasn't had any x-rays done and is actually eating and playing again much better after finishing the antibiotics. She had been barely eating the last few months before she started her treatment but again we thought it was the stress of moving to a new house 

I've read a lot on the royal canin website but is there a benefit to the SO diet besides increasing water consumption? Is there something in its formulation that's supposed to treat the current crystals and prevent future formation?


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Lilly's Mommy said:


> Thanks for all the wonderful replies. I asked the vet about dietary supplements because my sister in law used some cranberry/uti formula for her cats,after a few friends highly recommended it, and it really helped them. The vet said that any type of cranberry supplement wouldn't be good. I prefer natural and holistic approaches so I wasn't happy to hear that.
> 
> They told me UTI's are more commonly caused by infection than diet because I was concerned about dietary elements leading to crystal and eventually stone formation. Being a nurse I know that proper nutrition can be the best medicine, but the vet didn't seem to think the nutritional aspect of treatment applied in this case. I don't agree which is why I was scared to switch Lily to another food that may cause her to have more allergy and skin problems.
> 
> ...


Since she's clear of infection, I'd suggest taking the results of the tests to a holistic or integrative vet as complementary care (in addition to your primary vet). Many (not all) vets think of holistic medicine as "fluff" and not serious health care that can benefit your dog. My own vet didn't completely turn up her nose at it but was skeptical until she saw how much better my pups are without the RC SO.

As for whether it has any ingredients that dissolve crystals, they claim it does, but I would rather make sure my baby is as healthy as possible. Also, keep in mind that struvite crystals are actually normal in dogs; it's only when they form stones that they cause a problem.

I'm copying this from Whole Dog Journal April 2010 issue - it's from a fabulous series of articles on UTIs, stones and crystals and it's why you SHOULD NOT (yes shouting) let your vet bully you into using a dog food that you feel has substandard ingredients.

*Fact or fiction?*
All of the following statements are believed by many veterinarians and their clients. Yet none of them are true. Which have you heard before?
1. Urinary struvite crystals represent disease and require treatment.
2. Struvite crystals require a change in diet, usually to a prescription diet like c/d, u/d, or s/d.
3. Dogs prone to forming struvite stones should be kept on a special diet for life.
4. The most important treatment for dogs with a history of struvite stones is a low-protein diet.
Here’s why these common beliefs are misconceptions.
*1.* The presence of urinary struvite crystals alone does not represent disease and does not require treatment. These crystals can be found in the urine of an estimated 40 to 44 percent of all healthy dogs and are not a cause for concern unless accompanied by signs of a urinary tract infection. According to the Merck Veterinary Manual (2005), “Struvite crystals are commonly observed in canine and feline urine. Struvite crystalluria in dogs is not a problem unless there is a concurrent bacterial urinary tract infection with a urease-producing microbe. Without an infection, struvite crystals in dogs will not be associated with struvite urolith formation.”(Our emphasis.)
Whether your struvite-crystal dog has a urinary tract infection is the key question. Researchers estimate that more than 98 percent of all struvite stones are associated with infection. Failing to eradicate the original infection and prevent new bacterial infections is the main reason struvite uroliths recur. A recurrence rate of 21 percent was recorded in one study, but the risk can be significantly reduced through increased surveillance and appropriate antimicrobial treatment. In one study, dogs were infected with an experimental Staphylococcal urinary tract infection, and their infection-induced struvites grew large enough to be seen on X-rays within two to eight weeks.
*2.* Struvite crystals do not require a change in diet. Because struvite crystals do not pose a problem unless the dog has a urinary tract infection, there is no required treatment for crystals, including dietary changes. If the dog does have a urinary tract infection, a prescription dog food will not cure it.
If your veterinarian finds struvite crystals in the urine and suggests a diet change, you’d be well advised to find a new vet. You have to wonder how many other things he or she is misinformed about. It isn’t just a case of not keeping up with newer research; this recommendation is just plain wrong.
*3.* Dogs prone to forming struvite stones should not be kept on a special diet for life. Struvites almost always form because of infections, for which dogs with a history of stones should be closely monitored and properly treated. No long-term dietary change is required, nor will a special diet prevent the formation of infection-induced struvites. However, short-term changes may help speed the dissolution of stones.
*4.* Low-protein diets do not prevent stone formation. A low-protein diet can speed the dissolution of struvite stones -when accompanied by appropriate antibiotic treatment -but it is not necessary for the prevention of struvite formation in dogs who are prone to this problem. For almost all dogs, controlling infections will prevent more stones from forming.
​The other type of crystal, oxalates, is more serious. Here's what WDJ says about those:

*Calcium oxalate stones*
CaOx stones occur in both the bladder (lower urinary tract) and kidneys (upper urinary tract) of male and female dogs. Most calcium oxalate uroliths are nephroliths (found in the kidney), and most of the affected patients are small-breed males. CaOx uroliths are radiopaque and most are easily seen on radiographs (X-rays).
In addition to breed and sex, risk factors for CaOx stones include being overweight, under-exercised, neutered, and eating a dry food diet, which contributes to more concentrated urine. Small dogs are thought to be more susceptible because they drink less water relative to their size than large dogs do.
One risk factor is insufficient or abnormal nephrocalcin, a strongly acidic glycoprotein present in normal urine that inhibits calcium oxalate crystal growth. Dogs who produce normal and sufficient nephrocalcin have a reduced risk of developing calcium oxalate stones.
Certain prescription drugs contribute to the formation of CaOx uroliths. Prednisone and other cortisone-type medications prescribed for inflammatory illnesses such as arthritis, itchy skin, or inflammatory bowel disease, can contribute to the formation of CaOx stones. So can the diuretic drug furosemide (brand names Lasix or Salix), which is given to dogs with congestive heart failure. Thiazide-class diuretics are recommended in place of furosemide for dogs who are prone to forming CaOx stones. Some nutritional supplements, such as vitamins C and D, are believed to contribute to oxalate stone formation.

​For oxalates, diet, supplements, and most importantly lots of water can keep her from developing stones. 


As an FYI, a vet (not my regular one) insisted that without RC SO my dog would develop stones, require surgery and possible die. She bullied me into using it. Turns out my fluff is allergic to several of the ingredients in RC SO and nearly died from that. So, go with your instincts when looking for veterinary care for your fluff.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Yes, what type of crystals did your dog have? Did your vet not tell you what kind? Recommendations for different types are different. Some will dissolve, others will not. 

If your vet does not know what type your dog has, you might want to start all over with another fresh sample.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

I agree with Maggie that it seems as though seeing a holistic/integrative vet is a good next step. Especially since you already believe in the power of nutrition and like natural remedies.
A holistic vet is going to put more emphasis on maintaining a good quality diet for Lily's allergies. It sounds like you must have done a lot of work to figure out a good diet for her, and it must have beem such a relief when she improved. What I love about our holistic vet is that he looks at the whole picture of the dog's health, not just each separate issue as it omes up, and tries to address issues with things like supplements first, that arent going to have any negative side effects. It just sounds like this isnt a good food for a dog with allergies because it is based on corn, rice and chicken fat. It would be awful for her to have a reaction to it.
If your philosophy of how to address an issue differs from your vet, you can always switch vets or get a second opinion. Sometimes we have to be the ones to take charge and find the right vet to help us do what is best for our little ones!
The American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association has a link on their website to search for a vet in your area if you decide to get a second opinion and need help finding one. It is near the top left - AHVMA Home Page


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## Lilly's Mommy (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks so much for the additional information. That article is awesome and it made me feel much better about getting a second opinion and going the holistic route!


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