# Bad side effects of rabies vaccine?



## vinhle68 (Mar 19, 2012)

Hello SM family,

This article was shared to me in the NewGMEDogs Forum and I thought it is also valuable to share among our SM family so we can engage in discussion. 

Has anyone had any bad experience with rabies vaccine?

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/JR_Articles/margo%20on%20rabies%20vaccine.htm


You know when your fluff get sick as an owner, you find yourself wondering if whether you had done something or had fed something you shouldn’t that could have contribute to the problem. I know you shouldn’t focus on this negativity but it is just natural that we go through this. With Biscuit we’re wondering if whether we have spoiled him too much and feed him too many random food that could have contribute to causing the autoimmune disease to progress rapidly. Biscuit also had his rabiew vaccine when he was very young.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Vinh, I am sure you read my posting in Nov. about Liesl's anaphylactic reaction to the rabies vaccine? She had the same sort of reaction last Jan. to the Lepto vaccine. 
The ER vet told me that Lisi can have NO more vaccines or they may not be able to save her next time. It has presented quite a conundrum for us here living abroad where she cannot fly unless she has a valid rabies vaccine every year. I have a plan but will not make it public in order to protect us. She won't be getting any more vaccines period!
My new motto is: "If Uncle Sam wants it, let him come and get it!" or better stated "don't ask, don't tell." :HistericalSmiley::innocent:


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## ladodd (Jan 8, 2012)

Vinh, I lost Luci in Dec 2011 due to complications related to a catastrophic reaction to the Rabies Vaccine. She was 2 1/2 yrs old. Unfortunately, it is a required vaccine for us. Had Luci survived our vet would have filed an exemption for her.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

ladodd said:


> Vinh, I lost Luci in Dec 2011 due to complications related to a catastrophic reaction to the Rabies Vaccine. She was 2 1/2 yrs old. Unfortunately, it is a required vaccine for us. Had Luci survived our vet would have filed an exemption for her.


Laurie, I am so sorry to read this. Maybe you could post more so others can know how to recognize what might happen. I would be happy to add my experience to such a posting. Every situation is a bit different but being prepared is so important so that one can react as quickly as possible in the event of a catastrophic event.:wub:


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## vinhle68 (Mar 19, 2012)

*Ditto!*



edelweiss said:


> Vinh, I am sure you read my posting in Nov. about Liesl's anaphylactic reaction to the rabies vaccine? She had the same sort of reaction last Jan. to the Lepto vaccine.
> The ER vet told me that Lisi can have NO more vaccines or they may not be able to save her next time. It has presented quite a conundrum for us here living abroad where she cannot fly unless she has a valid rabies vaccine every year. I have a plan but will not make it public in order to protect us. She won't be getting any more vaccines period!
> My new motto is: "If Uncle Sam wants it, let him come and get it!" or better stated "don't ask, don't tell." :HistericalSmiley::innocent:


Sandi! I'm with you here. I'm a law biding citizen but to laws that only make practical sense to me. If these vaccines that required by laws have also been known to cause major harm to our pets, I will opt not to give it period. Like you simply put it...if uncle sam wants to come and get me, I'll be ready and waiting. :behindsofa:


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## vinhle68 (Mar 19, 2012)

*I'm very sorry to hear this, please share more detail*



ladodd said:


> Vinh, I lost Luci in Dec 2011 due to complications related to a catastrophic reaction to the Rabies Vaccine. She was 2 1/2 yrs old. Unfortunately, it is a required vaccine for us. Had Luci survived our vet would have filed an exemption for her.


Hi Laurie, I am really sorry to hear this and I hope that this posting didn't bring you back sad memories of Luci. I'm with Sandi as well. If you don't mind sharing more detail with us it would help to educate a lot of new Maltese owners such as myself about the danger of certain vaccines, and I'm most interested to know about the exemption or alternative approve method that is acceptable by laws.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Lisi & I will join you behind that sofa Vinh---and we will, I am sure, be in good company!

:hiding::shy:
olice:olice:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Vinh, from my research only a number of states allow exemptions presently from the required rabies vaccine. 
Since I am not state-side I fall into an entirely different category---and there are no international exemptions that I have been able to locate. 
A vet signs a pledge to uphold the lives of animals (as in human medical care) and to do anything to harm them would violate that oath. It sure puts the vets who have seen such catastrophic reactions in a terrible predicament when there is no possibility of a waiver.


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## ladodd (Jan 8, 2012)

I posted it before, but can't remember what thread. It was a horrible experience. Luci came from a puppy broker. She had kennel cough when we first got her, we almost lost her then. When I called the PB ( jerk) and told him that she was very sick, he wanted me to bring her back to him, not a chance. We adored her, she was really the one that reeled my husband in, he feel in love with that little girl. She had a slight reaction ( she just seemed very lethargic) to vaccines at 1 yr, but at the time I didn't know any better and had all vaccines given at the same time. So, at 2 yr, they thought it was the dp vaccine that caused the problem, they pretreated her with benadryl. She seemed fine until 10 days post vaccine. I happened to be home with her, she started rubbing her face on the carpet and shaking her head. I thought it was ear problems. I called the vet and they said bring her in. I did, as soon as the vet got a hold of her, she said OMG she in anaphylactic shock. She told me to leave her, but stay nearby in case we need you to make a decision. We thought we were going to lose her. But, she rallied. The next day it happened again. They did bloodwork and found her white blood count was very low. They put her on Prednisone for 5 days. I returned and they did bloodwork again, her count was lower. They told me to immediately take her to a ER with a specialist. They did ultrasounds, and a bone marrow biopsy. They diagnosed her with Immune Mediated Neutropenia. She was put on a course of Prednisone. I knew her quality of life would not be good on the Pred, we tried Atpoica, but it wasn't bringing her counts up. They put her back on Pref, but it didn't work. We lost her 12/22/11, three months after the vaccine. Immune Mediated Neutropenia basically wipes out the immune system. Rabies vaccine suck.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Vinh, try not to blame yourself for Biscuit's illness. GME is thought to be genetic, in fact, the U of GA is doing a study right now to try to find a genetic marker for the disease.

Pam updated us about the study here:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-...229-remembering-lola-update-gme-research.html


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## vinhle68 (Mar 19, 2012)

ladodd said:


> I posted it before, but can't remember what thread. It was a horrible experience. Luci came from a puppy broker. She had kennel cough when we first got her, we almost lost her then. When I called the PB ( jerk) and told him that she was very sick, he wanted me to bring her back to him, not a chance. We adored her, she was really the one that reeled my husband in, he feel in love with that little girl. She had a slight reaction ( she just seemed very lethargic) to vaccines at 1 yr, but at the time I didn't know any better and had all vaccines given at the same time. So, at 2 yr, they thought it was the dp vaccine that caused the problem, they pretreated her with benadryl. She seemed fine until 10 days post vaccine. I happened to be home with her, she started rubbing her face on the carpet and shaking her head. I thought it was ear problems. I called the vet and they said bring her in. I did, as soon as the vet got a hold of her, she said OMG she in anaphylactic shock. She told me to leave her, but stay nearby in case we need you to make a decision. We thought we were going to lose her. But, she rallied. The next day it happened again. They did bloodwork and found her white blood count was very low. They put her on Prednisone for 5 days. I returned and they did bloodwork again, her count was lower. They told me to immediately take her to a ER with a specialist. They did ultrasounds, and a bone marrow biopsy. They diagnosed her with Immune Mediated Neutropenia. She was put on a course of Prednisone. I knew her quality of life would not be good on the Pred, we tried Atpoica, but it wasn't bringing her counts up. They put her back on Pref, but it didn't work. We lost her 12/22/11, three months after the vaccine. Immune Mediated Neutropenia basically wipes out the immune system. Rabies vaccine suck.


Oh my gosh, this is really sad to hear. I'm sure it's harder to ask you to recall this and share the story. Thanks for doing that. It will sure help us to be more alert and prepare to vaccines.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

I know many say they pre treat with Benadryl prior to vaccines. I was going to do this with Penny, till my Vet said he does not pre treat vaccines as this can mask a reaction, in turn delaying treatments. If so, I wonder why some Vets would give Benadryl? 
I've seen other threads with the fluff having some problems after shots like Laurie described, and seemed they had duel vaccines on the same day. I didn't know either to space them out till I joined SM. I guess the Vets make me so mad that they would do this to our dogs. :angry: and WE have to tell them these things. Why wouldn't they just give one at a time especially to a tiny dog...Sorry---Rant over!!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Some of you will remember my recent posting about Lisi's reactions & why I do not pre-treat w/Benadryl. Sue gave an excellent explanation of why this is not a good idea from a human/and personal point of view. Still other vets continue to pre-treat. 
I stayed at the vet extra long both times Lisi reacted with no signs of an immediate emergency. One happened about 45 minutes afterward (the lst one) and the second and more scary reaction was about 2 hours afterward. 
Because I have had 3 anaphylactic reactions myself I am well aware of the dangers which grow increasingly worse after continued exposure. Even then, it all happens so fast that it suddenly becomes a matter of life & death.

For those of you who might suggest TF vaccines I would agree that this is always a better (though not perfect) option, however, we do not have access to these vaccines overseas---and now I would not even try one on Lisi. I will seek out one for Kitzel in the US before he is due again. A TF vaccine is not fool-proof. My on anaphylactic reactions have been due to a cross-reaction w/something else which is yet to be identified. We can be as careful as we can be, but in the end we just don't have all the answers.
EDIT: Lisi's reaction can be searched under the title: Help-pray.


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

I am at a total loss with this....Zoe was due several months ago and I didn't do it. I really don't know if I will. Thank you Vinh and others for the info.


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

Coincidence or not, my Girlie Dolcina (R.I.P.) was diagnosed with GME few months after she was given the rabies vaccine.

Since then, I have stopped giving the Rabies to all my fluffs and am getting an exemption from my Vet (I reside in California).


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## ladodd (Jan 8, 2012)

I don't know if this is true, some members here may be able to confirm. I heard that the dosage of Rabies vaccine is the same for our little Maltese as it is for a horse.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

My little rescue Maltese, Bunny, was also diagnosed with GME shortly after a rabies vaccine.
Dr. Sisson took great care of her, but she developed pneumonia and they couldn't save her. She was only five.
I know that vets don't want to make a connection, but it seems too coincidential to me. Rabies is a disease of the brain, and these little ones get a huge dose then develop a neurological disorder...
Thanks for helping to educate others, Vinh. It is very scary for all of us who love these little dogs. 

Here is some additional info from Jan Rasmussen about the rabies shot:
The Rabies Vaccine for Dogs: Side Effects and Precautions You Can Take

Here is the Rabies Challenge Fund site - an effort to try to change the laws to allow the shot less frequently, since it is proven to be effective for 5-7 years:
About the Rabies Challenge Fund - Rabies Challenge Fund


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Yes, there is a genetic factor at play. A gene has been identifed in Pug dogs, and now Maltese as well. However much more research is needed to get the full perspective. They need DNA from more dogs with GME to study. What I understand is that any dog could have this genetic defect. Some may carry it, and never become sick. But for some with the genetic defect, something triggers the immune system to go into overdrive, and immune mediated brain inflamation is the response. What are the triggers? It could be vaccines, illness, or stressor. There is also a new study being funded by the AKC that is looking for a link between certain gut bacteria and the development of MUE (this is what Sophie has). This researcher is looking for poop samples from affected dogs. It's all very interesting. Here is a link:

Potential association between altered gut microbiota and development of meningoencephalomyelitis of unknown etiology (MUE) in dogs | AKC Canine Health Foundation

And they are also funding this one that is looking further for the gene mapping for NME (which is what Lola had):

Mapping Genes Associated with Necrotizing Meningoencephalitis in Dogs | AKC Canine Health Foundation

This one is actually the same researchers as the UGA study, Dr. Barber and Schatzberg.

I am happy to see that the AKC is funding these projects, and happy that the reseaerchers are delving into the cause of these monsterous diseases.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

ladodd said:


> I don't know if this is true, some members here may be able to confirm. I heard that the dosage of Rabies vaccine is the same for our little Maltese as it is for a horse.


 This is a true statement.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Besides the GME challenges, the rabies vaccination has caused a number of other problems. 

If you haven't yet read it, I would suggest the book "Scared Poopless" written by a little Maltese with help from her Mom. It attributes a number of health issues to over vaccinating our fluffs and the Rabies Vaccine in particular.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

pammy4501 said:


> Yes, there is a genetic factor at play. A gene has been identifed in Pug dogs, and now Maltese as well. However much more research is needed to get the full perspective. They need DNA from more dogs with GME to study. What I understand is that any dog could have this genetic defect. Some may carry it, and never become sick. But for some with the genetic defect, something triggers the immune system to go into overdrive, and immune mediated brain inflamation is the response. What are the triggers? It could be vaccines, illness, or stressor. There is also a new study being funded by the AKC that is looking for a link between certain gut bacteria and the development of MUE (this is what Sophie has). This researcher is looking for poop samples from affected dogs. It's all very interesting. Here is a link:
> 
> Potential association between altered gut microbiota and development of meningoencephalomyelitis of unknown etiology (MUE) in dogs | AKC Canine Health Foundation
> 
> ...


Thank you gain for keeping us updated on GME research, Pam!:thumbsup:


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

Bella is due for her vacs and I am just not comfortable with it at all. When we first got her we did a bunch of them together (not knowing any better) and the poor baby was completely out of it  . She was not feeling well at all. I wonder if Virginia has a rabies waiver option?


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

My Lily had an anaphylactic reaction to something in her distemper vaccine and we almost lost her... I was so scared..a few weeks after that, she developed IBD/colitis and began losing weight, developed allergies to certain foods(she was tested) and environmental allergies...I believe these issues are related to the vaccine reaction she had...it damaged her immune system..even though Lily has not had a reaction to rabies vaccine, she is not getting any more vaccines, ever... Eva is due March 1st for 3 yr rabies...and we do have TF, but as Sandi said, there is still a possibility of a reaction..I plan to do a blood panel on Eva first as she has elevated liver enzymes...if there is still an elevation, I will not vaccinate...all of mine are in the 4-5 pound range, so I think size makes a difference..the vaccine amount for rabies is 1 ml...all dogs get the same amount...whether 4 pounds or 45 pounds..


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## vinhle68 (Mar 19, 2012)

Wow I am sure glad that I started this great discussion threads! Work is heating up for me so I've haven't had the opportunity to review over everyone's comments, feedback, and shared resources but I will do it this weekend.

Just an FYI...I did ask Ann when did Biscuit got his Rabies Vaccines and I think she said almost once per year, every year since we had him, so that would make 5... The last shot was less than 12months before Biscuit first seizure episode. 

While it seem to be coincidental and that we don't really know for sure, I am still concern about a likely possibility that the Rabies Vaccines could somehow has a role in causing negative effect to the brains. I am going to pose this question to Dr. Sisson soon to see what he has to say about this.

Thank you everyone for the great source of knowlege!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Summergirl73 said:


> Bella is due for her vacs and I am just not comfortable with it at all. When we first got her we did a bunch of them together (not knowing any better) and the poor baby was completely out of it  . She was not feeling well at all. I wonder if Virginia has a rabies waiver option?


Virginia does have a medical exemption:

D. The Board of Health shall, by regulation, provide an exemption to the requirements of subsection A if an animal suffers from an underlying medical condition that is likely to result in a life-threatening condition in response to vaccination and such exemption would not risk public health and safety. For the purposes of § 3.2-6522, *such exemption shall mean that the animal is considered not currently vaccinated for rabies. *


RABIES LAWS IN THE UNITED STATES as of 6/16/10

I emphasized the last phrase because it is very important. An exemption only means that you are not in violation of the law if you don't get the rabies vaccine. Should Bella bite someone or be exposed to rabies (even saliva from an infected animal can spread rabies) she would be considered not current on her rabies vaccine. This can mean a quarantine of several months if she is exposed which can be stressful and expensive if she has to remain at your vet's the entire time. It can also mean euthanasia should she bite a child or even her groomer as the only definitive way to see if she has rabies is to examine the brain after death. You have to carefully weigh the risks if you request a medical exemption.

Another consideration is that if you let the rabies vaccination lapse in in a three year state, you have to get a one year booster, not a three year booster. Since they are the same vaccine, just packaged differently, that would mean a full strength vaccine, then another full strength vaccine a year later. Since most groomers and vets require a current rabies vaccine for treatment, it is safer to space the vaccine at three year intervals rather than one year intervals.

*One company, Pfizer Inc., decided to test its one-year rabies vaccine on live animals and discovered it lasted for at least three years. It sells the identical formula simply packaged under different labels -- Defensor 1 and Defensor 3 -- to satisfy different state vaccination requirements.
*
Some Vets Rethink the Need For Annual Pet Vaccinations - WSJ.com


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

That's the part I didn't realize till I asked my Vet about not getting rabies vaccines. He couldnt give me a waiver bec I was afraid of the shot. He said if you decide to get one AGAIN for travel or groomer you have to go back to yearly shot to begin with..He was warning me, bec he knows me...lol..Plus we go places and the groomer requires it or exemption letter. Oh, the letter, whatch out, not all places except a waiver either. Its up to them. Just be careful if your dog is outside and stuff to catch rabies. 


We just do one at a time now. So far they've done fine.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

vinhle68 said:


> Wow I am sure glad that I started this great discussion threads! Work is heating up for me so I've haven't had the opportunity to review over everyone's comments, feedback, and shared resources but I will do it this weekend.
> 
> Just an FYI...I did ask Ann when did Biscuit got his Rabies Vaccines and I think she said almost once per year, every year since we had him, so that would make 5... The last shot was less than 12months before Biscuit first seizure episode.
> 
> ...


Vinh, I would love to hear Dr. Sisson's opinion on rabies vaccine in regard to brain issues! Please post when you have heard from him!:thumbsup:


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

My Missy had had all her required rabies vaccines ( every 3 years), At nearly 10 yrs old she was due again. However she had developed, diabetes and dx with bladder cancer , both of which we had under control . Both her vet and I decided she simply could not have the rabies and did the waiver. 
In NY, basically the waiver is a certification from the vet stating the vaccine would cause threat to health of the dog. This certification has to be renewed yearly. However... As Marj had stated, if there is an 'incident' the dog could be quarrantened etc. 
For my own satisfaction, I did have a titer done on her to see just how well she was protected. Another pooch at the clinic ( a mid-sized dog) was having titer done same time.
I was told that 'good-protection' was a ratio of 1:5. Meaning it could be 'diluted' ( for want of bettter word) 5 X before loss of coverage. 
I was told the other dog came back with a ratio of 1: 300-something.
Missy's came back 1:1000!!!!!!!!!! 

This business of it only being good for 3 years drives me crazy! I'd 'bet the farm' that they are protected waaay longer... possibly/probably lifetime coverage! From what I understand, the FDA ( therefore the state regulations) go by what the manufacturers claim as the 'lifespan' of the vaccine. If manufacturer says 3 year.. that's what FDA goes by. It's already been shown that other vaccines are no longer required to be yearly because it's found they last much longer.... why not the rabies???!! ( look at Missy's results!) 
Are the manufacturers going to have incentive to test and see the coverage lasts longer...of course not! That would mean loss of revenue! ( Though I certainly would be happy to pay more and do less!! ).

There really needs to be an independant study to prove that the repeated rabies I not needed. In this day and age I'm appalled that this hasn't been a done deal already!


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

I read somewhere recently one reason for not extending vaccine protocol had to do with titer expense and most people won't titer, and all the strays and shelters it would be a nightmare to keep rabies (people) protected. Something like that. A bigger issue.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

SammieMom said:


> I read somewhere recently one reason for not extending vaccine protocol had to do with titer expense and most people won't titer, and all the strays and shelters it would be a nightmare to keep rabies (people) protected. Something like that. A bigger issue.


When we had titer done on Missy it wasn't all that costly... the vet charge was only about $35- but then there was a shipping charge of about the same ..think it was $38- or so as it had to be sent out and special handled, speedy etc. I realiy had expected it to be much much more. I will say our vet keeps charges at VERY fair levels so maybe that makes a difference and of course shipping is out of their control.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

> "For my own satisfaction, I did have a titer done on her to see just how well she was protected. Another pooch at the clinic ( a mid-sized dog) was having titer done same time.
> I was told that 'good-protection' was a ratio of 1:5. Meaning it could be 'diluted' ( for want of bettter word) 5 X before loss of coverage.
> I was told the other dog came back with a ratio of 1: 300-something.
> Missy's came back 1:1000!!!!!!!!!! "
> ...


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