# Rolling over the alpha roll



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm


I know many people are fans of The Dog Whisperer or are using outdated training books/ideas. However, for the SAFETY of ourselves and our dogs, it is important to understand why the alpha roll and other physical methods are not a smart idea. This article touches on the research behind these ideas.


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## Dixie's Mama (Mar 19, 2008)

That makes so much sense. Thanks for posting it.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks for this. I'm no fan of the outdated methods.


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm a Ceasar Milan fan, but I like him mostly for entertainment purposes. Does Ceasar Milan recommend "the roll" in any of his books? He has a disclaimer on his show (which is meant to be entertaining), so if people use tips from that there on their own. Your not Ceasar and that's not your dog on tv, so why would you try the same thing? I don't get Nat Geo anymore so I haven't seen his show in a while. I like his philospy that he "trains people and rehabs dogs." I think most of the time the owners are the problem, not the dog. I also like that he presses the fact that they are dogs and treating them like humans can be detremental. I used a lot of NILIF training with my Rottie (doesn't incorporate the alpha role at all) and I think Ceasar incorporates some of that in his training. I think Ceasar, like all trainers, has some good ideas, which still won't work on everydog, and some not so good ideas, that probably shouldn't be attempted by anyone else, if at all. Most importantly, I think he's exposed a lot of people to training and the idea that you don't just give up on your dog.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Apr 16 2009, 03:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=763427


> I'm a Ceasar Milan fan, but I like him mostly for entertainment purposes. Does Ceasar Milan recommend "the roll" in any of his books? He has a disclaimer on his show (which is meant to be entertaining), so if people use tips from that there on their own. Your not Ceasar and that's not your dog on tv, so why would you try the same thing? I don't get Nat Geo anymore so I haven't seen his show in a while. I like his philospy that he "trains people and rehabs dogs." I think most of the time the owners are the problem, not the dog. I also like that he presses the fact that they are dogs and treating them like humans can be detremental. I used a lot of NILIF training with my Rottie (doesn't incorporate the alpha role at all) and I think Ceasar incorporates some of that in his training. I think Ceasar, like all trainers, has some good ideas, which still won't work on everydog, and some not so good ideas, that probably shouldn't be attempted by anyone else, if at all. Most importantly, I think he's exposed a lot of people to training and the idea that you don't just give up on your dog.[/B]



You have made some good points - exposure to training is a great thing .... personally, I would like to see Victoria Stillwell more than Mr Milan. Its a personal preference for me, I appreciate her methods a lot more than I do Mr Milans.

At the end of the day - us HUMANS need to do all the learning, and then pass that on to our little ones.

Victoria Stillwell Website

Good post Jackie, thank you!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Alas, if only John Q. Public appreciated that warning on Milan's show...its a real shame to see some of the damage done by well meaning people.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 16 2009, 03:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=763672


> Alas, if only John Q. Public appreciated that warning on Milan's show...its a real shame to see some of the damage done by well meaning people.[/B]


Amen. I posted that link over on a Yorkie forum I belong to and got two replies - both defending using the Alpha Roll! One girl actually said maybe it didn't work with wolves, but on pets it works great! :smpullhair:


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 16 2009, 03:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=763672


> Alas, if only John Q. Public appreciated that warning on Milan's show...its a real shame to see some of the damage done by well meaning people.[/B]



Yep, I was one of those "well meaning people" a couple years ago. I was given VERY bad advice, and got my face ripped off. 

I wasn't worried about my face, I was worried about the damage I may have caused to the dog. This was a, one-time alpha roll,
and I was very gentle. This poor little guy had already had problems. I can't believe I did that. I simply rolled him on his back,
very gently, and said "calm down", when he flew up, and attacked my face. 

I am a_ former _Cesar fan. Many of his tips made sense, yet many do not, and are in fact dangerous, and detrimental to the dog.

I will never forgive myself for listening to a "so called know-it-all trainer" (not Cesar) but a huge fan of his. 

After that nightmare, I stuck with my old ways. It took some time, but let me tell you, positive training turned him around.

He's a good boy. Still has some issues, and a bit quirky, but he's doing great.


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

Deb, I don't like any "know it all trainers." I think different dogs respond to different methods. My biggest problem with all of the celebrity trainer is they are all so rigid. I do like Stillwell, again mostly for entertainment purposes. She too gets people interested in training. I think she is another trainer that thinks her way is the only way and that bugs me.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I firmly believe a good trainer is well-rounded and evaluates each dog on an individual basis. Being on the internet, I can give "generic" information that will not cause harm, but without seeing the dog and owner in person, an individual plan cannot be made. This is the huge importance of seeing someone in person. 

No two dogs will train the same way. For example, I have been training Soda to retrieve a dumbbell for competition obedience. There are many ways to do this. We have been working with someone who has OTCH (obedience trial champion) dogs of another toy breed. Well, the first ways she suggested that we started with did not seem to get Soda too enthused. So once I understood the exercise, I built my training plan. Soda, who didn't want to touch the dumbbell, now goes crazy for it and retrieves it beautifully. I trained him to do this without saying a word and without putting a hand on him. This method works best for him whereas the trainer's methods worked best for most dogs she worked with. She was all for my method...I call that well-rounded! She now has a new tool after seeing my dog learn in a different way. It is all about being open, but the bottom line has to be not to use any method that could cause physical or mental harm to the dog. 

BTW, I simply set the dumbbell on the floor and free shaped an entire retrieve.


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## trvlnut (Sep 14, 2008)

*BTW, I simply set the dumbbell on the floor and free shaped an entire retrieve.*

Jackie:
Would you expand on this further?

TIA


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

http://clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm#shaping

Here are some articles on shaping.


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