# Bile Acid Testing - Who Pays?



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm just back from this year's Specialty. Great fun and great job done by Denise and Jim Hunter, the show chairs, and all of their volunteers!

While at the Specialty I had a conversation with a breeder about liver issues, bloodwork, bile acid testing. She mentioned that she got an inquiry recently from a potential puppy buyer. The buyer asked if the puppies had been bile acid tested. They had not yet been tested but the breeder was willing to do the test if the potential buyer wanted to pay for it. The potential buyer said no, she was not willing to pay and that she read on Spoiled Maltese that breeders should be doing the testing and paying for it. I test any dog or bitch before deciding who might get bred. I also test all of my puppies before placement. One of the major reasons why I do things the way I do is because I do not have years of experience behind me nor do I have generations of line bred dogs behind me. There are many breeders who have both experience and generations behind them, have not produced major liver issues, know their dogs, are very watchful of their puppies, and do not feel the need to test every puppy before they sell it. Is this a wrong approach? I don't think so. Personally, bile acid results are very important to me when considering buying a puppy. If a breeder has a puppy that I'm interested in or who has a male that I would like to breed to that has not been tested then *I offer to pay for the testing *before making a commitment. There has been tons of discussion on this forum over the years about bile acid testing but there is not a "one size fits all" answer to who tests and who pays. Anyone who walks away from a puppy because they believe the breeder should in all cases pay for testing might just be walking away from the dog of their dreams.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

My personal feeling on this is that if I was truly interested in a pup and wanted the test done, I'd pay for it.

I did just that - before I got Ava I was looking at a beautiful yorkie girl. Had my airline reservations made and all. I paid to have a bile acid test done and decided to pass on the pup as the numbers were in the MVD range. I realize that can be controlled with diet, but with feeding multiple dogs I didn't want that hassle if I could avoid it. So I flew to Florida and visited a friend instead of picking up a pup. .....had fun anyway...and had lunch with Reva too!!


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

The A Team said:


> My personal feeling on this is that if I was truly interested in a pup and wanted the test done, I'd pay for it.
> 
> I did just that - before I got Ava I was looking at a beautiful yorkie girl. Had my airline reservations made and all. I paid to have a bile acid test done and decided to pass on the pup as the numbers were in the MVD range. I realize that can be controlled with diet, but with feeding multiple dogs I didn't want that hassle if I could avoid it. So I flew to Florida and visited a friend instead of picking up a pup. .....had fun anyway...and had lunch with Reva too!!


I'm so glad you waited Pat because that left room for Beautiful Miss Ava!! :wub: About special diet, though, in most cases (greater than 80%) of dogs with higher than normal bile acid values, they are asymptomatic dogs who DO NOT ever need any special diet.


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

If I were looking for another Maltese I would probably try to find a breeder who would pay for bile acid testing themselves. It is my understanding that an accurate result requires the dog to be 6+ months of age (correct?), so the age of the pup would have to be taken into consideration. If I were looking at a 12 week old pup it wouldn't make much sense to have bile acid testing, would it? Preston came to me with a full blood panel done as he was being held back for show potential, which was good enough for me since he was not 6 months old. In any future puppy I may get, having a full blood panel done would be a requirement of mine (at the breeders expense), and if the puppy was older I would request a bile acid test. If a breeder refuses to pay for it themselves, it certainly does not mean that they are a bad breeder, but the ones who do pay for it show that they really stand behind the health of their puppies and adults.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Before I bought London, I told her breeder that I wanted to know bile acid test results before I made a commitment. The breeder paid to have a bile acid test done, as well as a full blood panel and some other tests (even though I didn't ask for the additional tests). Of course I was buying a show potential puppy, but I know she would have a bile acid test done on show or pet puppies if the potential buyer wanted it done.

If I breed in the future, I will have all my puppies bile acid tested at MY expense, regardless of whether I am keeping them for show or placing them as pets. I feel like it is my responsibility to know my puppies' bile acid numbers before I decide to keep them in a show/breeding program or place them as pets. I wouldn't want to place a puppy in a pet home and later find out it had liver issues. So therefor, I feel it is my responsibility to pay for the test. It's not a very expensive test anyway, and I say you should factor that into the price you ask for your pet puppies.

I do understand and agree with Mary about long-term breeders knowing their lines. However, if they have brought any other lines in or done any outcrossing recently, they may not know for sure that they won't get a liver issue. In my case, my breeder knew her lines well and had never had a liver issue but the sire of my puppy was from another line. Regardless, she didn't have an issue doing the testing I asked for so that we'd both have peace of mind about it.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

LJSquishy said:


> If I were looking for another Maltese I would probably try to find a breeder who would pay for bile acid testing themselves. It is my understanding that an accurate result requires the dog to be 6+ months of age (correct?), so the age of the pup would have to be taken into consideration.


I test my puppies at 15 weeks of age and have full confidence that if there is a major issue it will be identified at that time. Sharon Center, the vet at Cornell doing the major research work on liver issues in our small dogs, recommends doing the test before placement, no matter what the age but prefers closer to the 14-16 week age. Her recommendation for testing at 6 mos. old was a recommendation to *breeders who are holding puppies as potential show prospects* because all the organs have more time to mature and we may get a more accurate result. Testing a puppy at 14 wks. old and getting a result of 40 vs. testing that same puppy at 6 mos. old and possibly getting a result of 30 is really of little value to a pet owner because the puppy is going to be spayed/neutered anyway. Those same results, however, might make a difference to a breeder because the breeder is thinking ahead as to what future breeding options may be. If I were to test a puppy at 12 wks. old, 15 wks. old or 6 mos. old and get a value of 100 or more then I would be doing further testing before placing the puppy.



> If I were looking at a 12 week old pup it wouldn't make much sense to have bile acid testing, would it? Preston came to me with a full blood panel done as he was being held back for show potential, which was good enough for me since he was not 6 months old. In any future puppy I may get, having a full blood panel done would be a requirement of mine (at the breeders expense), and if the puppy was older I would request a bile acid test.


It absolutely would make sense to have a puppy tested at 12 wks. If a 12 wk. old puppy comes back with an extremely high bile acid value, say greater than 100, then the breeder might want to consider further testing, i.e., Protein C test, ultrasound, colorectal scintigraphy, etc., before placing that pup.



> If a breeder refuses to pay for it themselves, it certainly does not mean that they are a bad breeder, but the ones who do pay for it show that they really stand behind the health of their puppies and adults.


In the end the buyer is generally "paying" for the test, either because they pay for it outright or because the sale price of the puppy is set taking into consideration the expenses incurred by the breeder prior to placement. There are wonderful breeders out there who do not pay for the bile acid test who are as or more committed to standing behind the health of their puppies and adults. Paying or not paying does not guarantee ethics and integrity, good or bad.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I don't mind paying for it (for the same reasons Mary stated, they all apply to me) but I think I wouldn't really care for it if a buyer insisted that I had to pay for it because they read on SM that the breeder should pay for it. Especially if I am already selling a puppy at what I felt was a more than reasonable price. 

You're right to bring this up here, Mary. I don't think it should be expected that the breeder should pay for it, esp when a dog is going as a pet (show dog is a whole other story). I think if this expectation continues, breeders will need to adjust their puppy prices to accommodate this expectation.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

bellaratamaltese said:


> I think if this expectation continues, breeders will need to adjust their puppy prices to accommodate this expectation.


My puppy price is slightly higher than some of the other breeders in this area and I have set my price to include the fact that all of my puppies are bile acid tested before placement and have received all of their puppy shots. When potential buyers ask why my price is higher I do not hesitate to tell them that my price reflects that the fact that the buyer will not have to pay for a bile acid test or for any more vaccinations except for Rabies.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

I think it would behoove Breeders to do the test before placing a baby. Nothing is guaranteed, I realize that. Somehow it might save some heartache down the road for all concerned. Especially the baby. 

How much is a bile acid test anyway?
xoxoxoxoooxoxoxo


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

KAG said:


> I think it would behoove Breeders to do the test before placing a baby. Nothing is guaranteed, I realize that. Somehow it might save some heartache down the road for all concerned. Especially the baby.
> 
> How much is a bile acid test anyway?
> xoxoxoxoooxoxoxo


The vets in my area are now charging $125-$150 per puppy or dog. My vet does give me a "breeder" discount but I'm still paying close to $100/dog and I either have to take a day off from work because it takes about 3 hours total to draw blood, feed dogs, wait 2 hours, and draw blood again. If I leave the puppies at my vets for the day and go to work then I also get hit with a 1/2 day hospital stay charge.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

MaryH said:


> The vets in my area are now charging $125-$150 per puppy or dog. My vet does give me a "breeder" discount but I'm still paying close to $100/dog and I either have to take a day off from work because it takes about 3 hours total to draw blood, feed dogs, wait 2 hours, and draw blood again. If I leave the puppies at my vets for the day and go to work then I also get hit with a 1/2 day hospital stay charge.


And if you have a larger litter, that adds up, especially adding a chem panel to it (my vet charges $125 for a chem panel, so it is minimum $250 per puppy for both tests) In a 4 puppy litter, that comes to $1000.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

MaryH said:


> The vets in my area are now charging $125-$150 per puppy or dog. My vet does give me a "breeder" discount but I'm still paying close to $100/dog and I either have to take a day off from work because it takes about 3 hours total to draw blood, feed dogs, wait 2 hours, and draw blood again. If I leave the puppies at my vets for the day and go to work then I also get hit with a 1/2 day hospital stay charge.


Yes, it's all coming back to me now. I've had 2 very sick babies in the past. 

You're awesome Mary. No question.
xoxoxoxoxoxo


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

KAG said:


> Yes, it's all coming back to me now. I've had 2 very sick babies in the past.
> 
> You're awesome Mary. No question.
> xoxoxoxoxoxo


Kerry, that's why I test all my puppies before they leave ... so that I, as well as the wonderful people who own my puppies, have some peace of mind.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

KAG said:


> I think it would behoove Breeders to do the test before placing a baby. Nothing is guaranteed, I realize that. Somehow it might save some heartache down the road for all concerned. Especially the baby.
> 
> How much is a bile acid test anyway?
> xoxoxoxoooxoxoxo


I have never paid more than $40 for a paired bile acid test (this included pre and post blood draws and test). I did pay for an office visit as well so the total was about $80 for the office visit, exam and paired bile acid test.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

myfairlacy said:


> I have never paid more than $40 for a paired bile acid test (this included pre and post blood draws and test). I did pay for an office visit as well so the total was about $80 for the office visit, exam and paired bile acid test.


I've paid much closer to what Mary pays, probably more because my Vet is in Manhattan. I just can't remember. LOL
xoxoxoxoxooxo


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

After reading posts on SM about liver issues and Maltese, I had the bile acid test done on Tyler for my own peace of mind about six months ago and paid $142. I just felt it was money well spent and if a breeder had a puppy I wanted and would be willing to get the bile acid test done on her/his dime that would be great but also if a breeder didn't ordinarily do one and was getting it done for me, I would be glad to pay for it. To me $142 isn't a deal breaker in making sure I know about my Malts health. But I do see how it could add up for breeder with multiple litters. I totally applaud you Mary for doing it and know you have everyone's best interest in mind. :aktion033:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Geez, Michele, maybe I need to move to TX! The standard office visit in this area is $56-$65. I have paid far less for the tests when I've gone to Cornell ($10-$20/dog) and that's only because Sharon Center wanted the blood for research purposes and her research is subsidized. That is not the "regular" price at Cornell, though. And while the testing was not too expensive, it involved 8 hours of driving each way, meals on the road, and an overnight hotel stay.


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

I feel that if I really was interested in a puppy and willing to take on the expenses of that puppy for life, I would have no problem paying for the bile acid testing myself. 

In 2007, when I had bile acid testing done on Harry, my vet charged $65.00 for the test. The normal fee to be seen by the vet is $50, but they usually waive that fee if your dog is having a problem and you're there all of the time and just charge you for the tests or the procedures. 

When I take Harry to the specialist, it costs $135.00 just to walk in the door :smpullhair:, so we're really glad that he only wants to see Harry twice a year.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

MaryH said:


> Geez, Michele, maybe I need to move to TX! The standard office visit in this area is $56-$65. I have paid far less for the tests when I've gone to Cornell ($10-$20/dog) and that's only because Sharon Center wanted the blood for research purposes and her research is subsidized. That is not the "regular" price at Cornell, though. And while the testing was not too expensive, it involved 8 hours of driving each way, meals on the road, and an overnight hotel stay.


I know things are typically more expensive in California. That's what I paid when I was living in College Station (same city as Texas A&M University). I'm moved to the DFW area and have a new vet now...London's going to the vet today so I'm going to see what they charge for a Bile Acid Test.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I think it depends on how badly a customer wants a pup at 12 weeks. If they cannot wait until 15 then they can pay for it. Otherwise, I do believe, as Mary stated, paying by the breeder and absorbing it into the cost of the pup is a good thing. I also like the fact that the breeder cares enough to voluntarily do this (along with vaccines) before offering the pup(s) for sale.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

What happens IF the breeder tests and finds out there is some sort of issue---if even only minor esp. if a deposit has been made? Does the breeder release the buyer from the contract & return the deposit? 
What is the responsibility of the breeder if the pup isn't tested by the breeder & it is later tested & found to have an issue. What is the current ethical practice of the breeder or does it depend?


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Both my babies got one first thing when they came home to me. I only buy puppies with a 2 week return clause. I don't mind paying for the tests.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> What happens IF the breeder tests and finds out there is some sort of issue---if even only minor esp. if a deposit has been made? Does the breeder release the buyer from the contract & return the deposit?
> What is the responsibility of the breeder if the pup isn't tested by the breeder & it is later tested & found to have an issue. What is the current ethical practice of the breeder or does it depend?


Sandi, I test to insure that there is no liver shunt but can not and will not guarantee that the puppy will not have asymptomatic MVD, especially when approximately 75% of the breed has higher than normal bile acid values and in almost all cases MVD is not a life threatening issue. If ever I produce a puppy who has extremely high bile acid values along with other symptoms, i.e., anorexia, chronic diarrhea and/or vomiting, difficulty when being weaned, etc., then I would call the buyer, explain the situation, hold on to the puppy and return the deposit or offer another puppy from that litter if one is available ... but I would leave that choice up to the buyer. If I have a buyer who is concerned enough that they do not want a puppy whose bile acid values are over X then I will not take a deposit but I will not hold the puppy either. If the puppy is still available once I've gotten the bile acid results back then I will call that buyer to let them know. Trying to guarantee a puppy with normal bile acid values is like trying to guarantee that the puppy will have perfect teeth for the rest of its life and will never need a dental done. Neither is a life threatening condition and both are impossible to guarantee.

I don't know how breeders not testing are handling the situation except that those I know have the same guarantees as me for life threatening vs. non-life threatening conditions and we don't consider asymptomatic MVD to be a life threatening condition.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

If I was really insistent on having it done before getting the pup home, I'd happily pay for it. I don't think most breeders I've spoken to mind doing it at the owner's expense. 

Mary, you might consider sending it to a different lab to reduce the price.


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## marschil (Apr 21, 2011)

Hi princessre, unable to pm you, your box is full. Need input on a breeder I will be meeting with this week. Please pm me.
Marschil


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