# How Much Protein is Too Much?



## mommatee

After trying many, many foods, I finally found one that both Chloe and Lucy really like. I've been feeding them Blue Wilderness for Small Breeds, but is high in protein. Chloe is also gaining weight. She's now a whopping 10 pds!!! I don't want her her weight to cause health problems. She eats between 1/3 - 2/3 cups per day.


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## Sylie

That is a tough call. Personally, I decided against Blue, but I do think it is a good food. As I understand it, from reading and reading and reading...it is not the percentage of protein that can tax the liver of small dogs, but the quality of the protein. It is also very important that they get plenty of water with a higher protein food. It is just so hard to be certain that you are doing the best. i guess if Chloe is gaining weight you need to cut back. I know MiMi always acts like she is starving to death, but I need to restrict her. 
I now moisten their food to make it easier to digest the protein (I hope) but I worry that it isn't the best for the teeth. Oh, and it makes marks on their ears. Sigh. You just do the best you can. I wish we had an absolute right answer. And absolutely perfect food, but we don't. Even with home cooking you may be giving the BEST diet, or the WORST diet.


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## Ladysmom

Lady ate a high protein food for awhile (EVO), but really packed on the weight. I know of others who have had the same problem. We found we had to feed less than the recommended amount.

Bailey's breeder recommends no more than 26% protein for Maltese.


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## chrisnjenn

After reading numerous threads, asking my vet, and doing my own research, I have concluded that a high protein diet is best for Rocky ( dont buy the other sides theory). He has thrived on Orijen Dry Puppy (high protein), Weruva wet food, and I give him Fromm treats (mostly--also give him Wellness puppy treats and Sams Yams). I started this diet 3 weeks ago and he has flourished on it.


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## Ladysmom

chrisnjenn said:


> After reading numerous threads, asking my vet, and doing my own research, I have concluded that a high protein diet is best for Rocky ( dont buy the other sides theory). He has thrived on Orijen Dry Puppy (high protein), Weruva wet food, and I give him Fromm treats (mostly--also give him Wellness puppy treats and Sams Yams). I started this diet 3 weeks ago and he has flourished on it.


I know lots of people whose Maltese and Yorkies do fine on a high protein diet, but some don't. Just make sure Rocky has a healthy liver (bile acids test) as high protein diets aren't appropriate for Maltese with MVD. They put too much stress on the liver.


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## poochie2

I would never give any food over 27% protein. Moderate protein is best. High protein DOES stress the liver . My malt had 2 UTI's in 6 months from eating the high protein Orijen. As soon as I changed her food her urine tests were clear and her kidney crystals were gone.


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## chrisnjenn

Ladysmom said:


> I know lots of people whose Maltese and Yorkies do fine on a high protein diet, but some don't. Just make sure Rocky has a healthy liver (bile acids test) as high protein diets aren't appropriate for Maltese with MVD. They put too much stress on the liver.


Rocky did that test and his liver is healthy.


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## chrisnjenn

poochie2 said:


> I would never give any food over 27% protein. Moderate protein is best. High protein DOES stress the liver.


I did my own thorough research and disagree.


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## Sylie

chrisnjenn said:


> Rocky did that test and his liver is healthy.


That is really great to hear, but Maltese do have special needs. Your sweet baby may have some other breeds that do better on higher protein diets. What breed is your Rockstar? He is so cute. I just love him to pieces, but can you tell us what he is mixed with?


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## chrisnjenn

Sylie said:


> That is really great to hear, but Maltese do have special needs. Your sweet baby may have some other breeds that do better on higher protein diets. What breed is your Rockstar? He is so cute. I just love him to pieces, but can you tell us what he is mixed with?


What? He is full Maltese. Registered and pedigreed. Thanks though. Funny because I thought Mimi, while cute, was a mutt. Nothing wrong with that.


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## mommatee

Well Chloe and I had a Girl to Girl chat. She's not too happy with me, because I told her mommy is cutting back on the amount of food she gets. I tried to explain to her that I want her to live a long healthy life. :thumbsup:


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## StevieB

Hi, Tanya - have you tried the regular Blue Buffalo small breed? That's what I've been feeding Steve. I thought it was grain free, but it's not, it's got brown rice, but he does great on it. I had heard grain free is the way to go, for tear stains, etc. Well big dummy thought all Blue Buffalo was grain free so I just bought it (nutrition info confuses me , where I missed the BROWN RICE part I don't know). Tear stains are pretty much gone, he eats it, has solid regular poops, no upset tummy, stable weight. It's lower protein than the wilderness line. Fromm is really popular, but it's harder to find. I'm all about convenience. There's a lot of debate about whether grain free is better or having healthy grains is better. I dunno. But I'd say if your dog is gaining weight when they're not supposed to it's time to rethink the diet before it becomes a problem.


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## Katkoota

Hi Tanya

I didn't try Blue Wilderness for Small Breeds for the malts, so I don't have input about it. 

I hope you will find something that will work for your precious Chloe and Lucy. 

The malts are on ZiwiPeak (have been on it for a year now) and recently, we reduced the previously small amount of feeding to an even smaller countable amount because we added 1/2 a pattie of Stella & Chewy's (with lots of water to soak the pattie in) for early evening. So far, no major weight issue, but then again, my malts are pretty active (swimming, diving, playing fetch, zooming like crazy with my brother often....etc.). 

Whatever the food that one gives , controlling the amount of feeding is helpful. I find the amount feeding guidline in Stella & Chewy's is so much. I guess it works differently from one pup to another, but I am assuming half a piece of a small pattie with plenty of water is enough for my two 



Ladysmom said:


> I know lots of people whose Maltese and Yorkies do fine on a high protein diet, but some don't.


yep, this is what I am also concluding so far as I started doing lots of reading on this topic. I find it helpful to read from the pup owners' experiences themselves (I do read the yorkie forum too). for some maltese and yorkies too, it works. For others, it doesn't.


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## SammieMom

Hi Tanya,
I like the Fromm line of foods. Our Breeder recommends 26% and lower. I do yearly blood panels and feed 26% protein/under. 

We have the research clearly showing they can have compromised livers. I can't rely on a blood test to tell me the entire story, as we seen in many others and I don't have a crystal ball to see what impact the higher protein food will have down the road. So why chance it, by feeding over 26%. It's just not that big a difference to be worth it. It's more about the future to me, than what a test shows me at 2 yrs old. Good luck.


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## elly

Ladysmom said:


> Lady ate a high protein food for awhile (EVO), but really packed on the weight. I know of others who have had the same problem. We found we had to feed less than the recommended amount.
> 
> Bailey's breeder recommends no more than 26% protein for Maltese.


Mercedes was on EVO she gained weight and she had elevated BUN and Creatinine levels. As soon as we changed her diet the bloodwork was all back to normal:thumbsup:


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## Ladysmom

chrisnjenn said:


> Rocky did that test and his liver is healthy.


Are you positive Rocky has had a bile acids test? It is a very specific test you have to request. It is not part of a routine blood panel. It requires paired samples drawn several hours apart and has to be sent to an outside lab. It's usually done after a puppy is four months old.

http://www.ytca.org/health_biletestproced.doc-1.pdf


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## shellbeme

chrisnjenn said:


> What? He is full Maltese. Registered and pedigreed. Thanks though. Funny because I thought Mimi, while cute, was a mutt. Nothing wrong with that.




Oh come on. Sylie was not taking a jab at you she was genuinely curious. Mimi looks like nothing other than maltese.

Many mixed dogs do look like purebred maltese, many purebred look like possible mixes. My own Rocky could be mistaken for a mix as his coat is very curly. Anyway I think Sylie was wondering if your dog was a mix due to your vet okaying the food when most do not for higher protein for malts.

Either way, I am not here to debate, we each decide what works best for our dogs. 

To the op, I like blue buffalo, I prefer to keep protein 30 or lower but if your dog likes it and It's working and not causing any issues then I don't see a problem with feeding it personally.


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## SammieMom

Ladysmom said:


> Are you positive Rocky has had a bile acids test? It is a very specific test you have to request. It is not part of a routine blood panel. It requires paired samples drawn several hours apart and has to be sent to an outside lab. It's usually done after a puppy is four months old.
> 
> http://www.ytca.org/health_biletestproced.doc-1.pdf


I agree, bat is so helpful. (I was referring to using blood panels only in my post) but I also had BATS ran for both mine. One normal. Other elevated/Mvd. I would never know Sammie was elevated bec he had no issues with his food and his blood tests were normal. If he had problems would show up as he aged.


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## poochie2

My local pet food shop is so against selling any kibble for small breeds that is higher than the 26-27% range. She owns the shop with her husband and she works as an ER vet as well. They simply do not need the high protein. There are so many good choices out there . I have chosen Now small breed and have been using it for a very long while .


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## hoaloha

mommatee said:


> After trying many, many foods, I finally found one that both Chloe and Lucy really like. I've been feeding them Blue Wilderness for Small Breeds, but is high in protein. Chloe is also gaining weight. She's now a whopping 10 pds!!! I don't want her her weight to cause health problems. She eats between 1/3 - 2/3 cups per day.


Tanya, there is much debate about protein content-- but the bigger issue I see is the weight gain-- you are absolutely right that Overweight/Obesity can cause bigger issues (no pun intended) in the future (ie. exacerbation of joint/patella issues, etc...). I think that a majority of Maltese have asymptomatic MVD and if there is even the smallest connection to high protein levels causing stress on the liver (I can go into the pathophysiology but I'll refrain!), then why chance it when there are SO many other options out there? Also, high protein is fine for fully functioning kidneys but for dogs with a predisposition to kidney issues, high protein is certainly inappropriate.



chrisnjenn said:


> After reading numerous threads, asking my vet, and doing my own research, I have concluded that a high protein diet is best for Rocky ( dont buy the other sides theory). He has thrived on Orijen Dry Puppy (high protein), Weruva wet food, and I give him Fromm treats (mostly--also give him Wellness puppy treats and Sams Yams). I started this diet 3 weeks ago and he has flourished on it.


I commend your researching everything on your own, but where is this research based upon? I'd love to read the journals/sites you are referring to for my own education. Although you are very strong in your opinions, you should not discredit the VAST experience of maltese parents and breeders on this forum who have dealt with years and years of health experiences with their dogs. 

There is more than one "right" way--- what works for one dog may not work for another. 

Also, Rocky is still VERY young...so to say he is "thriving" and "flourished" on his current regimen of 3 weeks is a bit premature to make a blanket statement on his health. I hope Rocky stays very, very healthy but health is a continuum and sometimes we don't see effects in just 3 weeks.


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## mommatee

Thanks for the abundent of information from my SM family :thumbsup:. Marisa said it perfectly, why take a chance when there are so many other great food options available. Love to all of you.


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## TLR

shellbeme said:


> Oh come on. Sylie was not taking a jab at you she was genuinely curious. Mimi looks like nothing other than maltese.
> 
> Many mixed dogs do look like purebred maltese, many purebred look like possible mixes. My own Rocky could be mistaken for a mix as his coat is very curly. Anyway I think Sylie was wondering if your dog was a mix due to your vet okaying the food when most do not for higher protein for malts.
> 
> Either way, I am not here to debate, we each decide what works best for our dogs.
> 
> To the op, I like blue buffalo, I prefer to keep protein 30 or lower but if your dog likes it and It's working and not causing any issues then I don't see a problem with feeding it personally.


Way to go Shelly!!!


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## TLR

hoaloha said:


> Tanya, there is much debate about protein content-- but the bigger issue I see is the weight gain-- you are absolutely right that Overweight/Obesity can cause bigger issues (no pun intended) in the future (ie. exacerbation of joint/patella issues, etc...). I think that a majority of Maltese have asymptomatic MVD and if there is even the smallest connection to high protein levels causing stress on the liver (I can go into the pathophysiology but I'll refrain!), then why chance it when there are SO many other options out there? Also, high protein is fine for fully functioning kidneys but for dogs with a predisposition to kidney issues, high protein is certainly inappropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> I commend your researching everything on your own, but where is this research based upon? I'd love to read the journals/sites you are referring to for my own education. Although you are very strong in your opinions, you should not discredit the VAST experience of maltese parents and breeders on this forum who have dealt with years and years of health experiences with their dogs.
> 
> There is more than one "right" way--- what works for one dog may not work for another.
> 
> Also, Rocky is still VERY young...so to say he is "thriving" and "flourished" on his current regimen of 3 weeks is a bit premature to make a blanket statement on his health. I hope Rocky stays very, very healthy but health is a continuum and sometimes we don't see effects in just 3 weeks.


Couldn't have said it any better....totally agree with your post!!!!


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## lynda

TLR said:


> Way to go Shelly!!!



Yes Shelly, Way to go. That remark was un-called for.


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## BradyLily

Ok everyone, now I'm totally confused. I've had my 2 on Natural balance canned & LID dry for a while and switched to BB canned because the NB started giving them soft poops. They are both very good eaters and love the BB canned. I change proteins every couple of days and they love all of them. I have been doing research to find the best dry for them and I'm just not sure about the protein content. Can anyone help?? Brady will be 5 in November and Lily will be 5 in February.


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## allheart

shellbeme said:


> *Oh come on. Sylie was not taking a jab at you she was genuinely curious. Mimi looks like nothing other than maltese*.
> 
> Many mixed dogs do look like purebred maltese, many purebred look like possible mixes. My own Rocky could be mistaken for a mix as his coat is very curly. *Anyway I think Sylie was wondering if your dog was a mix due to your vet okaying the food when most do not for higher protein for malts.*
> 
> Either way, I am not here to debate, we each decide what works best for our dogs.
> 
> To the op, I like blue buffalo, I prefer to keep protein 30 or lower but if your dog likes it and It's working and not causing any issues then I don't see a problem with feeding it personally.


Thank you dear Shelly, for pointing this out, as sadly, I too, thought the comment was hurtful and Sheila truly had only the best of intentions.

To the OP, I too have been told that high protien is not good for our babies, but you bring up an excellent question, and received really great advice.

I feed my babies Addiction and they do well on it. But thanks to your question, I will be double checking about the protein question.


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## tobysmom

my toby did horrible on orijen (wicked dia---h, wow, bad) it was definitely the protein imo and the dense amounts of meats...(First 5 ingredients: Fresh boneless chicken, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon, turkey meal, herring meal...)

He *does* do well on raw, which is high in protein, but it's mostly water and it's the dry matter that is high in protein, i think the water makes it much easier to process. there's something about that concentrated meat meal kibble that i don't think is a good idea for small non-working dogs.

I aim to feed 24-26% ideally, but go as low as 22 and high as 33 (ziwipeak). But again, ziwi peak is more moist, and isn't that large amount of dense meat meal kibble food and i also don't feed it exclusively for long periods of time. 

Everything i've heard about small non-working dogs is that they do well on 22-26%. Working cattle dogs and racing dogs need 35+% protein but not little 'walk a couple miles a day' toy dogs. .


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## zooeysmom

Zooey got way too fat on Orijen and Acana. She has maintained her weight nicely on Fromm.


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## zooeysmom

chrisnjenn said:


> What? He is full Maltese. Registered and pedigreed. Thanks though. Funny because I thought Mimi, while cute, was a mutt. Nothing wrong with that.


I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculous I almost had to laugh. Mimi is a beautiful example of the breed, and we all know it.


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## lmillette

zooeysmom said:


> I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculous I almost had to laugh. Mimi is a beautiful example of the breed, and we all know it.


Well, it appears that everyone has told "chrisnjenn" that this comment is ridiculous. If you look at her profile she no longer going to be on SM or make any more posts. So I just thought I would let everyone know this in case they hope she sees your comments. MiMi is a beautiful Maltese and Rocky is a cutie pie. Everyone's Maltese, Maltese Mix, and Honorary Maltese here on SM is so precious!! :wub: And IMHO, maybe the comments should be put to bed on this topic since she is no longer coming on. That is my thought anyway. :innocent:


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## Lacie's Mom

Tanya -- Tilly put on weight with both Blue Buffalo and Wellness. On the other hand, Lacie lost a little weight and I was feeding the amount I normally feed. So why did one gain and one lose -- I don't know.

I have switched back to Innova which seems to work better for my girls.

BTW -- not only is higher protein a concern for the liver but also for the kidneys.

And -- if you want to get weigh off of Chloe without having her "starve to death" (she will think she's starving) -- try cutting her dog food to about 1/4 of what you normally feed her and then put green beans for the remaining 3/4s You can use fresh cooked, cooked frrozen or canned without salt. It will fill her up and help her get the weight off quickly. You can do this for no more than 3 weeks and then put her back only on the dog food.  It's kind of like how salads (i.e., lettuce) fill up people.  We use this for show dogs all the time.


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## mommatee

Lacie's Mom said:


> Tanya -- Tilly put on weight with both Blue Buffalo and Wellness. On the other hand, Lacie lost a little weight and I was feeding the amount I normally feed. So why did one gain and one lose -- I don't know.
> 
> I have switched back to Innova which seems to work better for my girls.
> 
> BTW -- not only is higher protein a concern for the liver but also for the kidneys.
> 
> And -- if you want to get weigh off of Chloe without having her "starve to death" (she will think she's starving) -- try cutting her dog food to about 1/4 of what you normally feed her and then put green beans for the remaining 3/4s You can use fresh cooked, cooked frrozen or canned without salt. It will fill her up and help her get the weight off quickly. You can do this for no more than 3 weeks and then put her back only on the dog food.  It's kind of like how salads (i.e., lettuce) fill up people.  We use this for show dogs all the time.


Thank you sooooo much for this Lynn :thumbsup:. Chloe LOVES green beans!! I will definitely try this!! Its funny you say one pup may gain weight and one may lose on the same food. Lucy lost 2 pds on this food :blush:


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## gidget'smom

I checked Ziwipeak which I currently feed Lulu and Gidget and love and it is 36% protein, but it does not contain any meat meal which is concentrated protein. I don't know if that makes a difference. In other words, if protein is protein or if their is different "kinds" of proteins. I do know that ZP is not a kibble but a dehydrated raw. Also, I have recently fed Acana Duck and Barlett Pear I was pleased with it, but Lulu started shedding again pretty bad and she had stopped shedding on ZP. I know Maltese owners don't deal with shedding I'm just giving my reason for switching. If you google Acana dog food you will see that their new limited ingredient kibbles are only 25-26% protein. If the shedding doesn't stop on ZP, I'm going right back to Acana Duck.

Another thing I have recently learned but prefer you do your own research to verify, rosemary is not a good ingredient to have in dog food nor is Sodium Selenite. Rosemary can cause seizures, and over time Sodium Selenite can be toxic. It is better if the food has Selenium Yeast instead of Sodium Selenite and not include rosemary at all. Now, I look at this the way someone else looked at higher protein foods; maybe it won't hurt anything and maybe it will, but I prefer to err on the side of caution and feed foods that do not contain those things. I had also seen the research that the other girl was talking about that unless your dog is predisposed to liver or kidney issues, higher protein is not a issue if it is quality protein. But I will agree with the thinking that again errs on the side of caution in case a test does not show up a problem my little ones have.


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## Sylie

From what I gathered from reading and reading and reading is that dry protein is hard on the liver and kidneys. Especially low quality protein, such as is found in corn..minimal and hard to process. Dogs will not normally consume the amount of water they need to process the protein through their liver. Wet, high quality protein can be given in higher quantities than dry, concentrated, or low quality protein. That is how I interpreted everything I could read on the subject. Since, it seems, there is no absolute answer, everybody should use their google and read as much as you can, and then YOU make the decision that seems best for your dog. Even so, we will still be guessing. And yet, I remember when my parents fed our family dogs table scraps and canned Skippy, yet those little sweathearts lived to be 17 years old. So, to me the bottom line is we do the best we can, we learn as much as we can, we try to decipher truth from hype. And then we throw our hands up and say...there is no absolute right answer.


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## gidget'smom

Sylie said:


> From what I gathered from reading and reading and reading is that dry protein is hard on the liver and kidneys. Especially low quality protein, such as is found in corn..minimal and hard to process. Dogs will not normally consume the amount of water they need to process the protein through their liver. Wet, high quality protein can be given in higher quantities than dry, concentrated, or low quality protein. That is how I interpreted everything I could read on the subject. Since, it seems, there is no absolute answer, everybody should use their google and read as much as you can, and then YOU make the decision that seems best for your dog. Even so, we will still be guessing. And yet, I remember when my parents fed our family dogs table scraps and canned Skippy, yet those little sweathearts lived to be 17 years old. So, to me the bottom line is we do the best we can, we learn as much as we can, we try to decipher truth from hype. And then we throw our hands up and say...there is no absolute right answer.


From someone who has studied this stuff until she's pulled most of her hair out looking for the perfect food--well said!


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## BradyLily

*Natural Balance dry looks different???*

Does anyone use Natural Balance LID Chicken and sweet potato???
I just bought a new bag and the kibble is dark and smaller than the previous bag. I'm definitely going to change to something else, but don't want a kibble with really high protein. I'm looking at Fromm and Blue Buffalo. I switched from NB canned to BB canned about 1-1/2 months ago and my babies love it!!:aktion033:
I've been given a sample of Grandma Lucy's Artisan and another dehydrated food (can't remember the name) and I'm a little lerry. 

I feed the kibble in the am and the canned at night.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## tokipoki

BradyLily said:


> Does anyone use Natural Balance LID Chicken and sweet potato???
> I just bought a new bag and the kibble is dark and smaller than the previous bag. I'm definitely going to change to something else, but don't want a kibble with really high protein. I'm looking at Fromm and Blue Buffalo. I switched from NB canned to BB canned about 1-1/2 months ago and my babies love it!!:aktion033:
> I've been given a sample of Grandma Lucy's Artisan and another dehydrated food (can't remember the name) and I'm a little lerry.
> 
> I feed the kibble in the am and the canned at night.
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


I mentioned in another thread that I currently feed Toki grain-free Fromm! But I also like Blue Buffalo. Some dogs don't tolerate BB well for whatever reason but this has not been my experience.

My yorkie puppy, my sister's senior yorkie, and my parents' beagle all have done very well with the BB in the past (collectively, they've been on Wilderness Small Breed, Wilderness Salmon, Wildnerness puppy, Healthy Weight, and Chicken and Oatmeal for puppies)! 

I don't know if you were looking specifically for grain-free but their Freedom line is a great option. The protein content is much lower than what you would find in their Wilderness line. Their Basics line also would be a good option Blue Buffalo is relatively easy to find as well!

I switched to Fromm just because I liked that they were a smaller, family-owned, US-based company with quality ingredients at a cheaper price but I would have no problem going back to Blue Buffalo.


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## BradyLily

Thanks for the quick reply. I did see your post of the other thread and commented on that as well. I'm just not happy with NB looking different every time I buy it!! I am definitely going to get samples of both BB and Fromm!!


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## tokipoki

I'm pretty sure that Fromm will send you samples if you request it (I've heard they decline some people's request and I've heard that they've sent them so iono). Maybe give them the name of a couple different formulas you're interested in...couldn't hurt! My independent pet stores always have sample packs of the Fromm if the company won't send you samples. 

Email Fromm! They will send you a $5 off coupon at the very least! Which is a great deal considering how affordable the kibble is anyway! And I know that you can get a coupon off the BB website if you do the True Blue test or something like that.


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## BradyLily

Sounds good Somie!! I'm on it!


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## BradyLily

I emailed Fromm about a 1/2 hour ago and I received an email back already!! They've discontinued sending out samples, but are sending me a coupon for $5.00 off.
That works!! Thanks for the info


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## tokipoki

Nice! Hopefully you can get Fromm somewhere near where you live!


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