# Follow-up #2 to Quincy's illness - here's the release form and other info



## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

I wanted to make a new thread so this info did not get buried in the other thread. Firstly, let me say thank you to everyone for the kind words and support, it's been overwhelming and has helped me with this journey of grief. You are all very kind. While sharing this info rehashes some difficult memories, I don't want to withhold any info that might help someone else make a more informed decision.

Below is the release form that the vaccine maker, Merial, would require my wife to sign if we want the $1,500. I am not sure if it will help anyone, but I suppose it can't hurt. Perhaps the most important thing to note is that the specific vaccine in question is the Lepto vaccine Quincy was given on 12/28/2012 (the have the wrong date). He also received a bordetella vaccine that day (no other vaccines were given on this date), but that is not part of the scope of this (so I say). 



















Here is Quincy's vaccine schedule for anyone interested. Again, maybe it will help someone make a better decision. If anyone has anything to add, please feel free to share. It just seems like there is SOME connection between vaccines and some of our little pups getting sick. Going forward we are not going to be administering the Lepto vaccine to any of our dogs. If we can help at least one dog and their parents avoid the pain we and others have, then it's worth sharing this information.

Quincy was born on 9/1/10 and we got him in December 2010, so his vaccine records begin in Feb 2011.

12/28/12: Leptospirosis vaccine (annual) and bordetella vaccine (6 month)

12/20/11: Leptospirosis vaccine (annual), bordetella vaccine (6 month), rabies vaccine (3 year) and DA2PP vaccine (3 year)

7/25/11: bordetella vaccine (6 month)

2/7/11: Leptospirosis vaccine (annual) and bordetella vaccine (6 month)


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

Wow that pretty much shows that they are guilty!!!! I am glad that you didnt sign this and are showing this to help out others!!!


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

Aaron, when did he start showing signs of a problem. After the last one on 12/28/12? If so, I would say it sounds like it definitely was the Lepto that did it because I have never heard of a problem with bordetella. And I am groaning because I just gave Boo the lepto last week by itself.


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## luvsmalts (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm speechless! My breeder did tell me her dogs tend to not do well with the Lepto vaccine. I was relieved it wasn't required for us. I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this, but thank you so much for sharing Quincy's story.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

> Aaron, when did he start showing signs of a problem. After the last one on 12/28/12? If so, I would say it sounds like it definitely was the Lepto that did it because I have never heard of a problem with bordetella. And I am groaning because I just gave Boo the lepto last week by itself.


Quincy started having small focal seizures two days after he got his vaccines (maybe sooner but we did not detect anything). His left eye twitched some and he was making a licking action. They started off lasting for 15-30 seconds and then he would be fine. We quickly got him on prednisone for the assumed inflammation and later added phenobarbital for the seizures (this was all done before he had an MRI in mid-March that showed fluid build-up on the right side of his brain).

I don't want to tell others to absolutely, positively NOT get this vaccine or that, as I am not a doctor and don't want to potentially cause other problems related to not being vaccinated. If I had a message to share, it would be to take greater caution when vaccinating your pups. Perhaps spreading vaccines out or combining vaccines with some anti-inflammatory meds as a proactive measure are some things we can do to help limit side effects.

Tori (Grace'sMom) had an excellent post in my other thread that would be a good read for anyone. http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-...ing-give-us-money-thoughts-4.html#post2460321


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

Aaron, your story has brought me back to my furbaby who passed 2 1/2 years ago with liver disease. I never really vaccinated her after her initial shots as a puppy since she didn't go out other than with me being carried around. I came across a situation where I had to give her the Bortadella vaccine and now I am wondering if the shot had something to do with her becoming ill or brought to the surface something she already had. 1/2 hour after the injection she had a severe allergic reaction. I will never know the answer as to exactly what ultimately caused her death. I feel that your decision not to take their hush money says a lot about you and how much you loved Quincy and care about ALL fluffs.

I always felt that all of these vaccinations given to our animals are done mostly for profit. How can a 5 lb. dog get the same exact shot as an 80 lb. dog, it doesn't make sense. No one knows how long these vaccinations last and how often we should really be giving them. None of us even vets cannot answer these questions. We are pressured to give Rabies shots because its required by law. I just learned that a 1 year rabies and a 3 year Rabies is exactly the same injection!! The only difference is the labeling ....I have called Merial myself last week and confirmed this with them.

Again, I am sorry for your loss and know how difficult this ordeal must be for you. I am happy that you didn't accept their money and you can share your story which may help save the lives of many fluffs. Thank you!!


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Lepto is the most likely vaccine of all to cause reactions...this is no longer considered a core vaccine(like rabies and distemper) for this very reason and is not recommended for Maltese unless they are at HIGH risk for developing the disease...very few Maltese are in the high risk group. I have never gotten this vaccine for any of the Maltese I have had in the last 15 years. Do you live in a high risk area for lepto and did Quincy spend a lot of time outdoors with other dogs?? If not, I would question why your vet felt it necessary to give Quincy the lepto vaccine...:blink:


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

April, I don't have a good answer for you unfortunately. We take our dogs to the dog park and they go to the groomer every 6 weeks. They also spend time with their cousins next door and those three dogs go to the dog park and go to the same groomer every 6 weeks. None of our dogs go to daycare or anything like that. As far being in a high-risk area, I cannot give you an answer. 

Hindsight is 20/20, but I wish we never gave Quincy the lepto vaccine. It hurts even talking about it because this was the trigger that caused Quincy to get sick. But we cannot change what happened and can only help others be more informed. Last night my wife was feeling guilty for allowing Quincy to get the lepto shot, but I told her she can't do that to herself. I am trying to minimize the guilt part of the grieving process, as people can get caught in that stage and beat themselves up over things they cannot change.

Our primary vet is a very caring man (it's he and his wife) and I am having a hard time questioning why he would have not given more thought into Quincy getting the lepto vaccine. It's just hard to digest all this new info so soon after Quincy passed away. I am trying to find some solace in the fact that maybe I can help some others be better informed about how to vaccinate their dogs.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Don't beat yourselves up. All of this is an ongoing learning curve. Some of us have paid a big price for this, and I think it is our responsiblilty to share what we have learned so that others will be better armed with the necessary information to make good choices for our pets. This includes our vets. Vets are actually scientists as are human physicians. All physicians (including animal physicians) utliize protocols to guide care via evidenced based medicine. But it is our responsibility to question things and have reasonable discussions with our caregivers. After what happened to Lola, I only titre my dogs, and my vet recommeds this to other clients as well. I think we both learned. Here are a couple of interesting articles to ponder. 

From Dogs Naturally Magazine:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/leptospirosis-vaccine/


And from Dr.Jean Dodds:
Adverse Reactions to Vaccine: Treatment and Management | Truth4Dogs

And Aaron, if you haven't read this book, you should buy it and read it today! It's must reading for all maltese owners!:

Amazon.com: scared poopless: Books


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## sdubose (Feb 21, 2012)

I think the fact that the company wanted a release signed is suspicious. I'm glad you didn't sign it. They must know that something is not right about the vaccine. Please try not to feel guilty. It's natural to trust your vet. And honestly until I joined this site, I would think these companies that manufactured these vaccines would act in a responsible way. If they are having enough problems to need a release then maybe they need to pull the product. IMHO


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Your wife mustn't feel guilty. She was doing what she thought was right at the time, we get guilted at the vets if we don't do, or agree with everything they suggest, and if we don't follow their advice and something happens then we feel even more guilty. So all you can do is carefully look at things for yourself and do your best for your loved one. I am happy that we don't need Lepto. so they never had it.


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## K9Author (May 3, 2007)

It's criminal that a vet would give a Maltese lepto. It's a vaccine for dogs playing outdoors in swamps and woodlands. And it really doesn't work. Google Dr. Patricia Jordan and Leptospirosis. Even the vaccine sellers say it is extremely dangerous for small breed dogs. I haven't heard the whole story, and am up to my eyeballs fighting a dangerous California rabies bill. Check it out on Jeffers Vet Supply site. If you decide to make an issue of this, I'll help.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

Edgar had seizures about 1 hour after getting home from the vet after having the Lepto, rabies cocktail. He had seizures for 3 days. He was 9 at the time. I do not give him any shots now.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

What does it mean to get your dog titered instead of having them vaccinated? We got titer tests performed on Quincy when he was sick, so I am familiar with the concept. Is this a method by which you first determine if a vaccine is even needed?

And when I say vets are not scientists, I mean it in the classical definition (and respectfully). At the end of the day, vets (and human physicians) treat and "fix" patients using methods and protocols developed by actual scientists in the lab. Doctors don't typically develop treatments and cures, they administer them according to their patients' situations. Obviously vets are very skilled in the area of health and science, but they are not truly scientists in the manner I think of such people (similar to how PhDs in the lab are not MDs in the field). But this is just semantics and is not really relevant to any of this, I just wanted to clarify what I meant.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Aaron, was this what is known as the newer Lepto vaccine (covers 4 strains?). I am asking as my Lisi had an anaphylactic reaction to the older version which is still used in Greece.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

K9Author said:


> It's criminal that a vet would give a Maltese lepto. It's a vaccine for dogs playing outdoors in swamps and woodlands. And it really doesn't work. Google Dr. Patricia Jordan and Leptospirosis. Even the vaccine sellers say it is extremely dangerous for small breed dogs. I haven't heard the whole story, and am up to my eyeballs fighting a dangerous California rabies bill. Check it out on Jeffers Vet Supply site. If you decide to make an issue of this, I'll help.


I am not even sure what we would do as far as "making an issue of this". I am typically a level headed, objective guy but right now my mind (and my wife's mind) is completely scrambled. 

In short, what could we do? I don't care about money, at this point I only care about helping others learn as much as they can so this type of thing happens to less dogs. I know Quincy is not coming back so I have to try and find a way to make his life and passing mean something.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

edelweiss said:


> Aaron, was this what is known as the newer Lepto vaccine (covers 4 strains?). I am asking as my Lisi had an anaphylactic reaction to the older version which is still used in Greece.


This appears to have gone into production in August 2010, per a PR

US.Merial.com : Merial News Release


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## Cyndilou (Jan 24, 2013)

It is absolutely not your fault at all. They know it had something to do with their meds. They could fight you in court all day if they wanted to. They have the legal team and money. Surely they didn't offer you money out of the kindness of their hearts. 
Just like the rabies vaccine. I didn't want my baby having it because of the reaction our last fluff had. All I kept getting was it is the law. You know what screw the law. My baby barely goes outside and the chances of him getting rabies are zero. If you don't want your skin kids vaccinated you can refuse based on religion and they are going to be out and about their entire life.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Here is a good link from one of Jan's websites which explains titer testing:
Titer Testing: A Crash Course | Truth4Pets


Aaron, not sure if you know, but K9Author who posted a few messages ago is Jan Rasmusen, who is a wonderful advocate for public awareness of the dangers of overvaccination. Her signature has links to her sites, which are full of articles with lots of information. I have found the information she provides so helpful in making informed decisions about vaccines. A few people have already mentioned her book, Scared Poopless.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

"Merial Limited announces the launch of RECOMBITEK® 4 Lepto, a new 4-way vaccine. . . " I took this off the site you posted so it is the newer Lepto vaccine---we had the older one. The newer one is "supposed" to be safer! Scary.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

I just wish the Vets would get with the program? Never? With all the articles, data with on the Internet on this subject, seems to me a Vet would have to have his head in the sand not to know (duel shots) is no longer advised. I wish we could start holding the Vets responsible for their bad decisions. It could be possible your Vet asked rep to offer you help because he is more concerned for his reputation. Bad publicity for a Vet could be harmful, where as the company will not be impacted. Probably a minority of dog owners belong to forums or do reasearch on this subject, so we don't see all the other stories, and the Vets dont contribute to the research by ignoring the reality. The way to change needs to start with Vets IMO, but we have a big problem because to most SHOTS pay the bills. I almost think of the Vet & Vaccine manufacturer as one entity, as it's so closely joined.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

SammieMom said:


> The way to change needs to start with Vets IMO, but we have a big problem because to most SHOTS pay the bills. I almost think of the Vet & Vaccine manufacturer as one entity, as it's so closely joined.


I think change has to happen by pet owners demanding it. This is why making people aware of the dangers of vaccines is so important. Thank goodness for the internet. We can now do our own research and ask questions and make informed choices.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

SammieMom said:


> I just wish the Vets would get with the program? Never? With all the articles, data with on the Internet on this subject, seems to me a Vet would have to have his head in the sand not to know (duel shots) is no longer advised. I wish we could start holding the Vets responsible for their bad decisions. It could be possible your Vet asked rep to offer you help because he is more concerned for his reputation. Bad publicity for a Vet could be harmful, where as the company will not be impacted. Probably a minority of dog owners belong to forums or do reasearch on this subject, so we don't see all the other stories, and the Vets dont contribute to the research by ignoring the reality. The way to change needs to start with Vets IMO, but we have a big problem because to most SHOTS pay the bills. I almost think of the Vet & Vaccine manufacturer as one entity, as it's so closely joined.


I agree...unfortunately this can happen.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

AaronG said:


> Quincy started having small focal seizures two days after he got his vaccines (maybe sooner but we did not detect anything). His left eye twitched some and he was making a licking action. They started off lasting for 15-30 seconds and then he would be fine. We quickly got him on prednisone for the assumed inflammation and later added phenobarbital for the seizures (this was all done before he had an MRI in mid-March that showed fluid build-up on the right side of his brain).
> 
> I don't want to tell others to absolutely, positively NOT get this vaccine or that, as I am not a doctor and don't want to potentially cause other problems related to not being vaccinated. If I had a message to share, it would be to take greater caution when vaccinating your pups. Perhaps spreading vaccines out or combining vaccines with some anti-inflammatory meds as a proactive measure are some things we can do to help limit side effects.
> 
> Tori (Grace'sMom) had an excellent post in my other thread that would be a good read for anyone. http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-...ing-give-us-money-thoughts-4.html#post2460321



I wish *all* breeders stressed vaccinations for these little dogs being spaced out and separate. That would be a good start.

It would also be wonderful if vet's would be honest about the vaccines and potential risks. When I went in for the meeting with the partner, she even said, "Most of these little dogs are really sensitive to vaccines." :huh: So vets *do* know... they just don't say anything. Because they are worried you won't come back to get the other vaccines.

Don't beat yourself up.... and you will get wonderful advice here. We have doctors and lawyers.... When I was going through this with Grace everyone here was so helpful and gave me plenty of bits of wisdom and advice.

I know that at least on this forum, Quincy's story will not be forgotten...


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Yes, Aaron titering is a blood test that measures the amount of antibody in the blood to a given disease agent. So, for example, a parvo titer would show the amount of antibody against parvovirus that a dog has in his/her blood. I have not vaccinated any of my dogs since what happened with Lola, except for *Rabies* which I do very begrudgingly due to the law. All of my dogs have had strong titers, and do not require any further vaccination. I do not do *bordetella* or l*epto*, as they do not need it due to lifestyle.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Kathleen said:


> Here is a good link from one of Jan's websites which explains titer testing:
> Titer Testing: A Crash Course | Truth4Pets
> 
> 
> Aaron, not sure if you know, but K9Author who posted a few messages ago is Jan Rasmusen, who is a wonderful advocate for public awareness of the dangers of overvaccination. Her signature has links to her sites, which are full of articles with lots of information. I have found the information she provides so helpful in making informed decisions about vaccines. A few people have already mentioned her book, Scared Poopless.


good stuff, I realized that after posting :blush:

I suppose my question is what could my wife and I do realistically as far as "fighting"? I certainly will help bring awareness to others but not sure if we would have much of a chance going up against a pharma company with unlimited resources, assuming we could even bring about much change with such a fight. In short, we have to decide what is the best use of time and what will have the most impact on others, ya know? We will figure that out in due time.

It's so messed up, one the one hand we are still grieving for Quincy but on the other I am sitting here thinking how we can use his tragic death to produce some good in the world.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Kathleen said:


> I think change has to happen by pet owners demanding it. This is why making people aware of the dangers of vaccines is so important. Thank goodness for the internet. We can now do our own research and ask questions and make informed choices.


I agree to spread the word!! :thumbsup: But I would like to see Vets held accountable also when they double the risks with duel shots. this practice is incompetent. :angry:


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

SammieMom said:


> I just wish the Vets would get with the program? Never? With all the articles, data with on the Internet on this subject, seems to me a Vet would have to have his head in the sand not to know (duel shots) is no longer advised. I wish we could start holding the Vets responsible for their bad decisions. It could be possible your Vet asked rep to offer you help because he is more concerned for his reputation. Bad publicity for a Vet could be harmful, where as the company will not be impacted. Probably a minority of dog owners belong to forums or do reasearch on this subject, so we don't see all the other stories, and the Vets dont contribute to the research by ignoring the reality. The way to change needs to start with Vets IMO, but we have a big problem because to most SHOTS pay the bills. I almost think of the Vet & Vaccine manufacturer as one entity, as it's so closely joined.


annual exams, of which a large portion are vaccines, definitely constitute most of any primary vet's revenue. So while we want to believe our vets always have our best interests at heart, we need to take the approach that our dogs don't need ANY of the recommended shots and we need to be convinced reasonably that they do need these shots. 

Our vet was great the entire time Quincy was ill. He responded to texts and emails at all hours of the day and night, worked closely with the neurologist and came to our house to help Quincy move on. Part of me wants to think he has our best interests in mind but I can see the conflict with running a business and paying your bills.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

pammy4501 said:


> Yes, Aaron titering is a blood test that measures the amount of antibody in the blood to a given disease agent. So, for example, a parvo titer would show the amount of antibody against parvovirus that a dog has in his/her blood. I have not vaccinated any of my dogs since what happened with Lola, except for *Rabies* which I do very begrudgingly due to the law. All of my dogs have had strong titers, and do not require any further vaccination. I do not do *bordetella* or l*epto*, as they do not need it due to lifestyle.


thanks pammy. Under what circumstances do dogs need to get bordetella shots? I should know this and can certainly research it, but wanted to also ask so it's discussed in the open for others to read.

thank you again for everyone's help and support.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

AaronG said:


> annual exams, of which a large portion are vaccines, definitely constitute most of any primary vet's revenue. So while we want to believe our vets always have our best interests at heart, we need to take the approach that our dogs don't need ANY of the recommended shots and we need to be convinced reasonably that they do need these shots.
> 
> Our vet was great the entire time Quincy was ill. He responded to texts and emails at all hours of the day and night, worked closely with the neurologist and came to our house to help Quincy move on. Part of me wants to think he has our best interests in mind but I can see the conflict with running a business and paying your bills.


Yes.... it is sadly money.

Like many doctors push certain prescription drugs -- it is because reps come to their offices. Not all doctors do it (mine does not) but many doctors push specific drugs or "new" drugs...

Many vets are shmoozed by drug/vaccine reps.... Which is how your case got to the vaccine company. Because mine was the same -- she gave Grace's case to the rep who was there that week.

Sadly a lot of things are about money.

But having Chronic Lyme -- I am not shocked by any medical community (animal or people) anymore.... I don't trust the alopathic medical community anymore... I make sure to know everything I possibly can when I have to deal with an alopathic care provider.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

AaronG said:


> good stuff, I realized that after posting :blush:
> 
> I suppose my question is what could my wife and I do realistically as far as "fighting"? I certainly will help bring awareness to others but not sure if we would have much of a chance going up against a pharma company with unlimited resources, assuming we could even bring about much change with such a fight. In short, we have to decide what is the best use of time and what will have the most impact on others, ya know? We will figure that out in due time.
> 
> It's so messed up, one the one hand we are still grieving for Quincy but on the other I am sitting here thinking how we can use his tragic death to produce some good in the world.


Aaron, you and your wife have been through so much. All of us who have been there know how overwhelming the grief can be. I think it is part of the natural grieving process to search for a reason why, to question decisions you may have made and think "what if" and to try to have some good come from it. Please be easy on yourselves. Nothing has to be decided or accomplished today or this week or this month. 

In my opinion, raising awareness is fighting. None of us can go up against the big drug companies, but maybe by educating people we can help other little dogs. If that is what you eventually decided to do, by sharing dear Quincy's story, then that is a wonderful thing.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

More from Dogs Naturally:

Bordetella Vaccination for Dogs: Fraud and Fallacy | Dogs Naturally Magazine

and this:

World-renowned vaccination scientist, Dr. Ronald Schultz, says: “Many animals receive “kennel cough” vaccines that include Bordetella and CPI and/or CAV-2 every 6 to 9 months *without evidence* that this frequency of vaccination is necessary or beneficial. *In contrast, other dogs are never vaccinated for kennel cough and disease is not seen.* CPI immunity lasts at least 3 years when given intranasally, and CAV -2 immunity lasts a minimum of 7 years parenterally for CAV-I. These two viruses in combination with Bordetella bronchiseptica are the agents most often associated with kennel cough, however, other factors play an important role in disease (e.g. stress, dust, humidity, molds, mycoplasma, etc.), thus *kennel cough is not a vaccine preventable disease* because of the complex factors associated with this disease. Furthermore, *this is often a mild to moderate self limiting disease.* I refer to it as the ‘Canine Cold.’”


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

thanks pammy. I do question why a vaccine would be needed for something that is not particularly life threatening (based on my limited knowledge). I will ask Kristy if the groomer requires it or we have been advised to give this vaccine based on our dogs' activities. Heck, I would be inclined to pay the groomer to come to our house or perhaps we can learn to groom our dogs ourselves (which I am sure Kristy would LOVE....not)

I don't get vaccines for the flu for crying out loud. If I got the flu, I'd rest and get over it. I am not a child or a senior, but even then there is great evidence to suggest that the effectiveness of flu vaccines in "higher risk" individuals is very low. But I digress.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

The problem with bordatella is that most groomers and boarding facilities ask that your dog is vaccinated against it. So what do you do if you really need that service ? 
Most old timers of this forum are aware of the risk of the lepto vaccine to Maltese dogs. It has been discussed for years. 
Vets can still make a profit without vaccinations. Doing titers is not exactly cheap. I did this with Charlie in December 2011 when he was due for his vaccination of DHPP. It cost me $138.95. The titers came back okay.
In March of this year he had an annual check up with a complete lab test. I paid $246.70. No vaccination and I made them write in the file "No vaccinations". Nobody pushed me to do any. 
I am lucky with the groomer I use occasionally. She does not ask for vaccination. All dogs are done on appointment only. So there is never another dog there when your dog is there. And for boarding I can use my daughter. 
Wish I could avoid the rabies shot.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Oh I forgot to add. I read not long ago about the owner of a boarding kennel in Canada. A bunch of dogs came down with kennel cough. Guess what. The dogs who were vaccinated came down with it and the unvaccinated dogs were fine.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

AaronG said:


> thanks pammy. I do question why a vaccine would be needed for something that is not particularly life threatening (based on my limited knowledge). I will ask Kristy if the groomer requires it or we have been advised to give this vaccine based on our dogs' activities. Heck, I would be inclined to pay the groomer to come to our house or perhaps we can learn to groom our dogs ourselves (which I am sure Kristy would LOVE....not)
> 
> I don't get vaccines for the flu for crying out loud. If I got the flu, I'd rest and get over it. I am not a child or a senior, but even then there is great evidence to suggest that the effectiveness of flu vaccines in "higher risk" individuals is very low. But I digress.


Aaron,
The groomer I use only requires proof of Rabies for adult dogs. She said so many of her clients don't vaccinate beyond Rabies anymore she would go under if she required them all.


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## Maizy Moo's Mum (Jul 4, 2012)

Firstly i am so sad for your loss your boy clearly was truely loved!!

I need to do more reasearch on vaccines over here in the uk, whilst i know we do not give rabies i have no idea whether maizy has has lepto?? I will check this though. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

So nice that Jan has reached out to you. Maybe you could ask what she thinks you could do. She knows so much about all this. But don't get overwhelmed, you need time to grieve right now. :grouphug:


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

you're right Maureen, I need to take a step back and take a deep breath. There is plenty of time to figure out how to proceed from here.

My wife and I talked tonight more about the release form and agree that it limits our ability to educate others so they can make more informed decisions. I know these threads and the posts from others have educated at least a few people about vaccines, which is comforting to know. If we can help a few people in just a few days, then I think we could reach more if we just stay persistent. I just know how painful this has been and would love to help others avoid the same if possible.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

K9Author said:


> It's criminal that a vet would give a Maltese lepto. It's a vaccine for dogs playing outdoors in swamps and woodlands. And it really doesn't work. Google Dr. Patricia Jordan and Leptospirosis. Even the vaccine sellers say it is extremely dangerous for small breed dogs. I haven't heard the whole story, and am up to my eyeballs fighting a dangerous California rabies bill. Check it out on Jeffers Vet Supply site. If you decide to make an issue of this, I'll help.


Aaron, I hadn't even seen Jan's post here until right now. However, I read that whole release form to my husband (he is an attorney) a few hours ago. If it were me, I would send a copy of that release form to Jan ... that is, as long as you did not sign, nor intend to sign the release form. 

I think it is criminal what has been going on with vaccines ... vaccines that we are supposed to trust will not do harm to our beloved fluff babies. 

Please know that my prayers continue for you and your wife. May you both find comfort and peace with knowing what wonderful, loving, and devoted parents you were to your beloved Quincy. My heart is still breaking for you.


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## Dixie's Mama (Mar 19, 2008)

silverhaven said:


> So nice that Jan has reached out to you. Maybe you could ask what she thinks you could do. She knows so much about all this. But don't get overwhelmed, you need time to grieve right now. :grouphug:



I agree, just get in touch with her. You don't need to do anything right now.
I cannot believe how many shots your Quincy was given on the same day. The vet should be ashamed of himself for that alone.

I'm so sorry this happened to your dear Quincy.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Aaron, I hadn't even seen Jan's post here until right now. However, I read that whole release form to my husband (he is an attorney) a few hours ago. If it were me, I would send a copy of that release form to Jan ... that is, as long as you did not sign, nor intend to sign the release form.
> 
> I think it is criminal what has been going on with vaccines ... vaccines that we are supposed to trust will not do harm to our beloved fluff babies.
> 
> Please know that my prayers continue for you and your wife. May you both find comfort and peace with knowing what wonderful, loving, and devoted parents you were to your beloved Quincy. My heart is still breaking for you.


Thank you Marie. What did your husband have to say about the release form, if anything? Thanks for having him check it out. 

We aren't signing it, I don't want either me or my wife to be prevented from speaking about our experience and being able to help others avoid the pain we've been through. A few people have already said they have read about our ordeal and will approach vaccines much differently now, so in just a few days this community has been able to impact others in a positive way.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Dixie's Mama said:


> I agree, just get in touch with her. You don't need to do anything right now.
> I cannot believe how many shots your Quincy was given on the same day. The vet should be ashamed of himself for that alone.
> 
> I'm so sorry this happened to your dear Quincy.


That was in 2011 in particular. in 2012 he "only" got 2 vaccine shots at once, not that it matters now :blush:

My wife and I are going to take a VERY close look at all other vaccines (lepto is completely off the table now). Rabies is unfortunately one that is required by law, but I think that is even moving to a 5-year vaccine. The less crap we can pump into our pets, the better.


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## Barb and the boys (Oct 26, 2007)

I am so sorry for your loss, but Quincy will help spread the word on getting shots.

Twinkie is due for his rabies. Has anyone heard a rabies shot should not be given within three weeks of a flea medication?


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

I am not sure, that is an excellent question though.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

I think if your dog has a general health issue going on or had another vaccine recently that you would want to space these types of things a month apart of a vaccine. 

To me, although we dont want any reaction, there is a difference in a dog having an unforeseen allergic reaction such as analeptic shock from a single shot, which is possible with any vaccine VERSUS a dog being "over vaccinated" in one period or given vaccines that are not needed based on lifestyle OR known to be particularly harmful to a breed. IMO, our Vets need to help inform people with these decisions too. In most cases the Vet is the single POC for owners, without owners being educated and strong enough to challege their Vet this practice continues everyday. I hope Qunicys Vet is making changes to his protocol for vaccines.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

They're basically trying to take advantage of your grief and to buy your silence for $1500. They're doing this, because it's a drop in the bucket compared to what they'd make by not having it out there that your little Quincy and how many others have suffered and died...

More information would be out there and more voices to it, if they weren't taking advantage or grief and some owners financial situations with these offers.

Our dogs are property by law, but family in our hearts and therefore priceless.

I'm sure those who signed in their time of grief, were hurt even deeper when they learned another fluff died because no one spoke up.

Sadly no amount of money will bring Quincy back or heal the heart break and they're not going to offer more and no one would accept it, no matter how much they offer...

This is all they'll offer,they'll never admit to complicity, which would be worth the world to any grief stricken fluff parent...

We can only be the voices of the voiceless...

These companies have powerful lobbyists in the industry so nothing will change on a large scale, vaccines for profit ..over health of pets...equals $$$$$$.

Getting the word out and saving future fluff parents from going through what you've lost... priceless.

I wouldn't want to go through this and I pity the company that would send me something like this..I'd probably...... ,well I wouldn't be very nice about it....

Love and hugs


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

I vaccinate at home, and the vaccine I used ,dropped the Lepto long ago.
I know many others who self vaccinate,I don't know if I'd recommend it unless you're comfortable and have a vet supervising. Plus my nursing background helps...

We've done it ourselves because we rescue and have had sooo many strays and people dumping animals on us that vets bills were killing us, plus if you've had some strays that are not "vet" friendly. 

We've had a couple dogs and cats we rescued, that were fine with everyone else but try to bite the vet or they'd be so stressed out they'd shake , cry, pee uncontrollably and even vomit from fear... and have had stress reactions to vaccines so we started doing them at home after vet check ups and they did really well...

We make sure they get check ups, spay/ neuter and anything they need in between... plus vet does the rabies, titers, and all labs. We do the vaccinating at home because it's less stressful on them and they don't even know they're getting it...


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

After having vaccine discussions with a friend (and I don't force my opinions) she takes her dog to the Vet and gets dental work & "multiple vaccines". She said I thought it over and "I trust my Vet". I didn't criticize her, but I didn't ask which shots were given. The be honest it was a let down. I think she mentioned saving money or something by doing everything in one visit.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

When our vet did all the vaccinations, we spaced them out by a couple weeks so that way they didn't get popped with a bunch of stuff all at once... It costs more to do it that way , since our vet is 30 miles from us...but it's easier on the fluffs and safer.. 
He even recommends spacing it out for that very reason... he doesn't charge a second office call either, and he will check them over again... just to encourage people to space them out...
He won't do dentals and vaccinations at the same time, too stressful for the pet...


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

I was so happy when I first went to my vet and she was the one who said she would space out all of Tyler's shots. She'd only charge for one check up visit and each return for a shot, I would only pay for the shot itself. Having been educated here I was going to ask her to split the shots but she volunteered it first herself. I am planning to do titers now since Tyler's 4 and all this worries me. He does have to get the 3-year rabies shot by law and I plan to ask for the thermisol free one but pretty sure that's what she uses.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

SammieMom said:


> I hope Qunicys Vet is making changes to his protocol for vaccines.


Actually, my wife said last night that our vet made this very comment. She said this incident has opened his eyes to the issues with over-vaccination or giving unnecessary vaccines, although it saddens me that such a tragic event would be needed for that to happen.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

SammieMom said:


> After having vaccine discussions with a friend (and I don't force my opinions) she takes her dog to the Vet and gets dental work & "multiple vaccines". She said I thought it over and "I trust my Vet". I didn't criticize her, but I didn't ask which shots were given. The be honest it was a let down. I think she mentioned saving money or something by doing everything in one visit.


Yes, I forgot to mention that quite a few vets now offer what they call "value plans". The pet parent pays a set amount for routine care including vaccines, dentals, and exams at a small "discount"...some of the plans have almost every vaccine one can think of listed to "save money" for the owners.. I think that is what your friend was talking about..most people think they are getting a good deal..:blink:


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

AaronG said:


> Actually, my wife said last night that our vet made this very comment. She said this incident has opened his eyes to the issues with over-vaccination or giving unnecessary vaccines, although it saddens me that such a tragic event would be needed for that to happen.


Well, that is good to hear, you can at least take some solace that it won't happen again. It's not really my place to say, and I am generally a forgiving person, but this one is hard. My heart breaks for you all. I tell you Aaron, when I saw it on paper, its frightening to see how some Vets are so out of touch. No wonder you have such wonderful advocates stepping up to lend their support. I will keep you in my thoughts & prayers. :grouphug:


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Bad thing is when I travel and have to board them in an emergency,they do not accept titers...They have to be fully vaccinated by a licensed vet for two months prior, kinda hard to prepare for an emergency two months in advance!
We rarely have to board but we had a situation come up where I was hospitalized on holiday out of state and Al had to stay at the hotel with them a lot because no boarding would take them...even with up to date vet administered rabies...


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

SammieMom said:


> Well, that is good to hear, you can at least take some solace that it won't happen again. It's not really my place to say, and I am generally a forgiving person, but this one is hard. My heart breaks for you all. I tell you Aaron, when I saw it on paper, its frightening to see how some Vets are so out of touch. No wonder you have such wonderful advocates stepping up to lend their support. I will keep you in my thoughts & prayers. :grouphug:


I sure hope he learns from this and wasn't just blowing sunshine up our butts. Next time I see him I am going to ask him point blank what his stance is on vaccines now. I don't expect him to abandon vaccines or anything extreme like that, nor should he. But the idea that every dog needs the same vaccines given at the same frequency is clearly not the right approach.

The support from this community has been nothing short of amazing and overwhelming (in a good way). I have so many ideas in my head about what I'd like to do going forward, but I know there is time to deal with that later. Part of me thinks it's a defensive mechanism to buffer me/us from what has happened. And I am not really angry as much as I am disappointed at what has transpired. But I won't let this tragedy go without generating some good and awareness from it. I already see that some others have said they've learned from the discussions taking place and that makes me happy, which I need a little bit of right now.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

And remember, it is not just those who have replied.
Look at how many views your posts have gotten - you have reached a huge number of people already!


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Aaron-many people deal with grief by taking action. Bless you for this. 

PS-its hard I know, but please don't blame yourself. before I joined this forum I trusted a Vet who ultimately I think caused us to lose our 7 mo puppy in 2010. I think he ignored my repeated questions and reg flags as to why the puppy looked so sickly. He essentially did not test him properly, and I didnt know what to ask for, then he performed a neuter on him. The anesthesia caused severe seizures. I take responsibility for not educating myself on available testing when buying a puppy, and the signs of known issues in the breed. So we live and learn. 

xxxx


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

aprilb said:


> Yes, I forgot to mention that quite a few vets now offer what they call "value plans". The pet parent pays a set amount for routine care including vaccines, dentals, and exams at a small "discount"...some of the plans have almost every vaccine one can think of listed to "save money" for the owners.. I think that is what your friend was talking about..most people think they are getting a good deal..:blink:


OMG-that shows some Vets are full speed ahead selling the vaccines! :w00t:


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

michellerobison said:


> Bad thing is when I travel and have to board them in an emergency,they do not accept titers...They have to be fully vaccinated by a licensed vet for two months prior, kinda hard to prepare for an emergency two months in advance!
> We rarely have to board but we had a situation come up where I was hospitalized on holiday out of state and Al had to stay at the hotel with them a lot because no boarding would take them...even with up to date vet administered rabies...


That is a good point! Travel and boarding play a big role.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Aaron, I hadn't even seen Jan's post here until right now. However, I read that whole release form to my husband (he is an attorney) a few hours ago. If it were me, I would send a copy of that release form to Jan ... that is, as long as you did not sign, nor intend to sign the release form.
> 
> I think it is criminal what has been going on with vaccines ... vaccines that we are supposed to trust will not do harm to our beloved fluff babies.
> 
> Please know that my prayers continue for you and your wife. May you both find comfort and peace with knowing what wonderful, loving, and devoted parents you were to your beloved Quincy. My heart is still breaking for you.





AaronG said:


> Thank you Marie. What did your husband have to say about the release form, if anything? Thanks for having him check it out.
> 
> We aren't signing it, I don't want either me or my wife to be prevented from speaking about our experience and being able to help others avoid the pain we've been through. A few people have already said they have read about our ordeal and will approach vaccines much differently now, so in just a few days this community has been able to impact others in a positive way.


Aaron, my husband said that trying to get you and your wife to sign those release forms ... was their way of trying to get you to stay closed mouthed about their company. 

A company doesn't offer money and ask to have one sign release forms unless the company has concerns about being sued ... or, if they have something to hide. 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I believe you are honoring your precious Quincy by speaking up and helping all of us learn more about the harmful and devastating effects some vaccines might have on our precious fluff babies.

Thank you so much, Aaron, to you and your wife, for not signing that release form. I know there have to be many people out there who probably needed the money badly and gave in to signing their release form. And, what is sad, is that for a pharmaceutical company ... $1,500 is nothing. 

My prayers and heartfelt thoughts continue for you and your wife. I continue to pray that you find peace and comfort in knowing you were the best parents to your precious and beloved Quincy.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Aaron, was the bordatella given by injection or in the nose (intranasal)?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, one of my little fosters caught leptospirosis and nearly died from the disease, and I did quite a bit of reading on the disease and followed my vet's advice to have my other little dog vaccinated and she doesn't seem to have had any adverse reaction to the vaccine. I've had my somewhat larger dogs vaccinated against it for years. 

The groomers I go to only require rabies vaccination now (and in Calif. it's one year for the first time, then three years thereafter).


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

mss said:


> Aaron, was the bordatella given by injection or in the nose (intranasal)?
> 
> As I've mentioned elsewhere, one of my little fosters caught leptospirosis and nearly died from the disease, and I did quite a bit of reading on the disease and followed my vet's advice to have my other little dog vaccinated and she doesn't seem to have had any adverse reaction to the vaccine. I've had my somewhat larger dogs vaccinated against it for years.
> 
> The groomers I go to only require rabies vaccination now (and in Calif. it's one year for the first time, then three years thereafter).


re: bordetella - it was NOT an injection. 

I want to be clear that I am not taking a hard anti-vaccine stance, as I have barely scratched the surface on the topic and that would be a knee-jerk stance at this point. I know as I educate myself more, my stance will likely shift. As of right now my stance is that vaccines should be given more based on the need, not on a one-size-fits-all basis, which seems to be the approach taken by most vets. Does a dog that is basically a house pet that does not do boarding or daycare need the same vaccines as a dog that is used for hunting or that plays in the woods or near stagnant water? I don't think so. Above all else, I think we as caregivers need to question what vaccines our dogs are being given and make sure they are entirely necessary. In some cases they are absolutely necessary. Are they necessary year after year? Maybe, maybe not. There are ways to determine that.

The release form sent to me by Merial doesn't help me be "pro-vaccine", at least for the lepto vaccine. That reeks of culpability.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Thanks for the information. It does seem unlikely--to me, a layperson--that the intranasal bordetella would cause a reaction like that. I'm also wondering if my dogs have gotten the lepto vaccine made by another manufacturer. Maybe I'll look into that, but I'm going to tread lightly for a while. 

Again, I'm sorry for your loss. I thought your memorial to Quincy was lovely. What a darling dog. :grouphug:


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

mss said:


> Aaron, was the bordatella given by injection or in the nose (intranasal)?


If I remember correctly, we had a fluff on here who suffered liver damage from an improperly administered bordatella vaccine - I think it was Grace.

The vaccines in and of themselves are not "flawed" - what we need to consider is our fluff's size, overall health, history, risk factors for disease, and (if we can determine it) genetic predisposition. Finding genetic markers for GME/NME as well as liver shunts would be a fabulous contribution to the animal health community. We could test for those as well as BAT when our babies are puppies and make our decisions on vaccine/no vaccine/diet/lifestyle based on what's in the best interest of our fluff. 

The other thing we need to remember is that we have small dogs. Putting a lot of "stuff" at one time into a small dog overloads their systems. And sometimes, that can lead to a reaction the next time we put a piece of the "stuff" in. This is why spacing out any vaccines is definitely the right thing to do. I do vaccinate against Lepto - it's on the rise in our suburbs and we have a ton of skunks, raccoons and coyotes in our neighborhoods. I can't put garbage out the night before (even in cans) because these critters think it's a buffet just for them and will knock cans over to get to the goodies. Yes, those are some big raccoons - I have seen them and personally don't ever want to encounter them without a wall or car door separating us. We have just had some record-setting flooding which has spread all sorts of stuff into not only yards, but also houses and basements. So the "wildlife" isn't just in the woods or swamp, and every one of us has to make the right decision for our fluff based on the best information we have available. A good, ethical vet should be a partner with us in those decisions. 

Aaron, thank you for telling Quincy's story and helping to educate the Maltese world! I know this has been a heart-wrenching journey for you and your wife and we thank you for sharing it with us! Many hugs to you both!


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

maggieh said:


> If I remember correctly, we had a fluff on here who suffered liver damage from an improperly administered bordatella vaccine - I think it was Grace.
> 
> The vaccines in and of themselves are not "flawed" - what we need to consider is our fluff's size, overall health, history, risk factors for disease, and (if we can determine it) genetic predisposition. Finding genetic markers for GME/NME as well as liver shunts would be a fabulous contribution to the animal health community. We could test for those as well as BAT when our babies are puppies and make our decisions on vaccine/no vaccine/diet/lifestyle based on what's in the best interest of our fluff.
> 
> ...


Good post, Maggie..I have never been an advocate of no vaccinations, but Maltese as a breed(generally speaking), tend to be vaccine-sensitive anyway...lepto vaccine has the highest rate of adverse reactions more so than any other vaccine, including rabies..I do not recommend it for purebred Maltese. That being said, some areas are endemic for lepto... in those cases, one has to consider vaccination(the lesser of two evils, IMO). If an ethical vet can be found, great..but I still think we need to keep vaccine records at home and educate ourselves about which vaccines are really necessary...I also think that vaccines can be made safer...


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Maggie, how long have you been giving them Lepto vaccine? My worry is the having to repeat the shot. Or can you titer for Lepto? I have animals at night running around and I worry too, but I just don't want to have to vaccinate them yearly for Lepto. That scares me so much! I read often it is the second or third time that can trigger these serious illnesses. I don't know if that is true, but I read it somewhere. 

I'm in a Florida, and my Vet said with a pure breed Maltese he would just keep them away from a areas that could lead to Lepto as best you can, or you face the alternative of having to vaccinate repeatedly, which he is not in favor of even given alone he does not like giving it to a 4-5 lb Maltese. He said this is not a vaccine you want to be stuck giving to these dogs. I guess it's one of those things I have deal with owning Maltese. Urrrrggg........Penny is due for her Rabies, so here we go again......


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

It is quite a dilemma. 
Something that worries me, now that I've had a dog contract lepto in my back yard, is the incubation period and whether I could ever rely on a pet sitter or boarding facility to know if my dog were coming down with the disease or just missing me.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

mss said:


> It is quite a dilemma.
> Something that worries me, now that I've had a dog contract lepto in my back yard, is the incubation period and whether I could ever rely on a pet sitter or boarding facility to know if my dog were coming down with the disease or just missing me.


I read with interest your situation w/your foster dog & lepto---and wondered if that might be made into a sticky. Lepto is very misunderstood and seems to be on the rise even in the US. I have not given Kitzi his lepto this year and both of mine are overdue for this---it is rampant here. I know the shot only lasts for a yr. or less. We do not have the newer Lepto vaccine which covers more strains. Lisi had an anaphylactic reaction first to the Lepto & then to the rabies----so I am not planning on her doing any vaccines anytime soon. The jury is still out for Kitzi. Lisi is being kept inside at the moment but Kitzi walks outside. 
If I bring both dogs to the US in June I will probably see a vet there & weigh the options before deciding. I will research as much as I can in the mean-time. 
I am also interested in hearing from anyone who has given their dogs the Lymes vaccine.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

SammieMom said:


> Maggie, how long have you been giving them Lepto vaccine? My worry is the having to repeat the shot. Or can you titer for Lepto? I have animals at night running around and I worry too, but I just don't want to have to vaccinate them yearly for Lepto. That scares me so much! I read often it is the second or third time that can trigger these serious illnesses. I don't know if that is true, but I read it somewhere.
> 
> I'm in a Florida, and my Vet said with a pure breed Maltese he would just keep them away from a areas that could lead to Lepto as best you can, or you face the alternative of having to vaccinate repeatedly, which he is not in favor of even given alone he does not like giving it to a 4-5 lb Maltese. He said this is not a vaccine you want to be stuck giving to these dogs. I guess it's one of those things I have deal with owning Maltese. Urrrrggg........Penny is due for her Rabies, so here we go again......


Kandis - I replied to your PM but will repeat here. Sweetness was born in 2008 and I "failed foster" with Tessa in 2009. 

Neither of my girls had the Lepto vaccine until 2010. At that time, the incidence was on the rise here and the newer vaccine was available. So this would be the 4th year each of my girls has received it and they have had no problems. But - it is given separately from any other vaccines and separated by at least two weeks from a vaccine, heartworm or flea/tick medication.

I also thought I'd add here - my vet no longer recommends the Bordatella vaccine unless you have a dog for whom kennel cough would likely progress into pneumonia. It's relatively ineffective, according to her, and the only reason her "patients" receive it is because a groomer, kennel or day care requires it. My groomer requires proof of rabies and parvo vaccines or titer so we don't bother with Bordatella.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> I read with interest your situation w/your foster dog & lepto---and wondered if that might be made into a sticky.


I would not mind that at all having it made into a sticky. In fact, I had been asked if I would write an article about it, but I hadn't finished doing so before the subject came up again recently.

I might add to the multiple threads  that leptospirosis can be passed on to humans. I was worried about myself because I had just finished surgery and radiation treatments for cancer, but fortunately had not had chemo. I think I didn't get it.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

More of an fyi, my wife and I spoke with our primary vet last weekend and explicitly asked about how, if any, his approach to vaccines has changed since we lost Quincy and he said he is going to pay closer attention to environmental factors and breed factors going forward, which I think he is sincere about. One thing he mentioned, which is understandable, is how he once chose NOT to give a family's dogs the lepto vaccines and (you guessed it), they all went to some doggy daycare that was not discussed during the annual exam and they all contracted lepto. He said they all survived, thankfully. His point is that he has dealt with both extremes of the vaccination spectrum and both are difficult to deal with. I was specific about how going forward we would be incorporating titer testing when applicable and would be spacing out vaccines, although I cannot see us giving our dogs much more than the standard puppy vaccines and then rabies. I am not sure we will even give the bordatella vaccine anymore given our pets' lifestyles.

We also called our groomer and they only require rabies. But we are seriously considering getting the necessary equipment and having our groomer come to our home and groom our dog(s) and my sister-in-law's three dogs. It might be overkill, but we don't care  It might actually be easier since we wouldn't have to take all our dogs to the groomers and then go back 3-4 hours later to get them.

Anyway, wanted to share that our vet is at least talking the talk and seems genuine about adapting. I plan on emailing him good info on vaccinations as I find it.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the update. I do hope your vet is genuine  I believe when something like that happens they do change, at least I hope so.

As for vaccines... Woodrow has had most of his right? If not all?

You may think about finding a Holistic Vet and trying Nosodes. 

Gus and Grace both get Nosodes for Parvo and Distemper once a year. They are a homeopathic alternative to vaccines. They sort of "remind" the immune system of the things it has already been vaccinated against to help keep the effects active.

Just an idea


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