# Facial Development



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I was wondering with all the new puppies on the board recently how it is that experienced people (breeders and/or pet owners) evaluate looks on a puppy when they're so young. 

Even though breeders care equally about structure, movement, et., I'm wondering about facial features on a puppy. Does the pup have to be 12 weeks for you to see what his face will probably look like when he's older? Or younger like 8 weeks? I wonder if a breeder familiar with her own line might know this much sooner, like as soon as the puppy is born? 

Also, is there an age when the eyes are as big as they will ever be, or an age when the muzzle is a long as it will ever be? 

(I know different line develop differently and there is no definitive way to know. But I'm interested in people's practical experience with this...)


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

This is a good topic! You can tell fairly early on basic facial structure, but I'm not that adept at judging it. By 8 weeks though, you can tell the difference, at the very least. The balance of the face is evident so if there is a long muzzle or eyes that are too close together or small, it's easy to tell. Here is one of my 8 week old puppies that I post pics of this week. If she turns out to have a not so cute face, I will be very surprised. 










and I'm pretty certain her sister is going to have a slightly longer muzzle, but should still be a pretty looking malt. 









That said, if i had to choose between a nice head or nice structure, I'll take the structure any day. But if I happen to get the whole package? Well, that will be just fine, 

I look forward to the day when I can look at a newborn pup and say 'that one is going to have a beautiful face' but I'm too new at this right now. I can look at head shape, stop, ear placement, etc and make a sort of educated guess, but that is all it will be - a guess


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Different breeder's use different tools to assess their puppies. Most of my dogs are out crosses so it is harder to say for sure how they will develop. Some experienced breeders can tell you the head type at birth. One thing though that happens is, all dogs are born with short muzzles so they can nurse. I think most breeders know what is behind their dogs, so they are able to predict what will happen as they grow. 
I use Pat Hastings, Puppy-Puzzle assessment. Even though they are small, the 8 week rule does apply with Maltese. I still cannot predict how the mouth and teeth will progress. It is hard to predict how 46 teeth will fit into that muzzle. I developed a check off type sheet when assessing the puppy that works for me. 
The lower jaw can still grow after the adult teeth are in. And change the head. You can have a beautiful head at 8 weeks and then at 6 months end up with an under bite. There isn't any for sure way of telling what will happen.
As for eyes, some grow and get bigger and some don't. I've never had a beady eyed Maltese. Eye placement varies too. Some wider than other's. There is a pretend triangle that forms between the eyes and the nose. The 3 sides need to be in porportion with each other to form a pretty head.

Tina


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## Remmy's Mom (Feb 23, 2009)

At what age does a puppy's nose turn completely "Black"? Will a puppy at 12 weeks old nose has some brownish in it have the possibility that the nose will be completely black?


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Nov 13 2009, 04:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850875


> I was wondering with all the new puppies on the board recently how it is that experienced people (breeders and/or pet owners) evaluate looks on a puppy when they're so young.
> 
> Even though breeders care equally about structure, movement, et., I'm wondering about facial features on a puppy. Does the pup have to be 12 weeks for you to see what his face will probably look like when he's older? Or younger like 8 weeks? I wonder if a breeder familiar with her own line might know this much sooner, like as soon as the puppy is born?
> 
> ...


These are very good questions Sophia! I have been wondering the same things! This is why I just get puppies when they're a bit older, but I wouldn't mind having a young pup if I knew these type of things. I swear, I've seen malts with longer muzzles then what they had when they were young puppies, but what do I know! LOL


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

QUOTE (Remmy's Mom @ Nov 14 2009, 03:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851157


> At what age does a puppy's nose turn completely "Black"? Will a puppy at 12 weeks old nose has some brownish in it have the possibility that the nose will be completely black?[/B]


All breeder's hope nose pigment comes in within the first week of life. Not all puppies noses are completely black at 12 weeks, but you hope so. They can fill in and get darker. Just like eyeliner can fill in after 12 weeks and get darker. You never "know" for sure as with anything. Some depends on the type of enviroment they are kept in. If there isn't alot of sun light getting to them, then when they do get more in the sun, their pigment darkens and fills in. 
Some girls loose some of their dark pigment sometimes when they go into season. Again, when they whelp. Then redarken up after the puppies are weaned. 
My males I have, haven't lost their pigment at all. I just have the girls do it while in season and whelping. My oldest dog is 9 years old. He is my very first Maltese. 
Tina


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## Remmy's Mom (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you Tina for that information, it is greatly appreciated


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Of course I know nothing, but I'm thinking the very experienced breeders that have been breeding for years maybe have a feel for what the pup will look like, especially if they're breeding for a certain look. 

This is just a guess, of course, who can really know what any dog will look like as an adult. But I imagine it must be satisfying to be able to breed certain lines to try for that certain "look".


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Nov 14 2009, 05:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851160


> I swear, I've seen malts with longer muzzles then what they had when they were young puppies, but what do I know! LOL[/B]


Me too!


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

I was wondering if it's possible for SM members who have adult Malts to share puppy pictures, like a before and after. May be it'd help train us on what to look for. I'd be curious how the puppies from BellarataMaltese would look like as adults. When I was looking for my third Malt, one of the breeders had 3 puppies. They were 5 or 6 weeks old at the time (not ready to go home) but she allowed me to visit but not touch the puppies. I couldn't figure out what they'd look like when they grow up even with their parents on site so I ended up going to a breeder with an older puppy so I could at least guesstimate how he'd look as an adult (also it was love at first sight).


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

QUOTE (cleooscar @ Nov 20 2009, 01:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=853290


> I was wondering if it's possible for SM members who have adult Malts to share puppy pictures, like a before and after. May be it'd help train us on what to look for.[/B]


What a great idea, to have a before & after. :yes:


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (princessre @ Nov 14 2009, 07:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851197


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Nov 14 2009, 05:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851160





> I swear, I've seen malts with longer muzzles then what they had when they were young puppies, but what do I know! LOL[/B]


Me too! 
[/B][/QUOTE]

I've had pups that had rather long noses but grew into them, thus having shorter muzzles when grown. Also the opposite.
Even in line breedings it can vary. I don't think one can tell at birth but one can hope at birth. LOL!

Rate of time it takes for pigment to come through can vary a bit too, but I wouldn't bet on three months with pigment missing.


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## 08chrissy08 (Sep 19, 2008)

Good grief, those two are adorable! I think we need more pictures. What a couple of darling babies!



QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Nov 13 2009, 01:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850879


> This is a good topic! You can tell fairly early on basic facial structure, but I'm not that adept at judging it. By 8 weeks though, you can tell the difference, at the very least. The balance of the face is evident so if there is a long muzzle or eyes that are too close together or small, it's easy to tell. Here is one of my 8 week old puppies that I post pics of this week. If she turns out to have a not so cute face, I will be very surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Nov 20 2009, 02:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=853298


> QUOTE (princessre @ Nov 14 2009, 07:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851197





> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Nov 14 2009, 05:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851160





> I swear, I've seen malts with longer muzzles then what they had when they were young puppies, but what do I know! LOL[/B]


Me too! 
[/B][/QUOTE]

I've had pups that had rather long noses but grew into them, thus having shorter muzzles when grown. Also the opposite.
Even in line breedings it can vary. I don't think one can tell at birth but one can hope at birth. LOL!

Rate of time it takes for pigment to come through can vary a bit too, but I wouldn't bet on three months with pigment missing.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hi. 

This is very, very true. Generally speaking a breeder will have a fairly good idea by about 8-12 weeks on the face. However, I have see many Maltese grow into their face and in fact looking rather plain faced at 12 weeks, but stunning at 18 months old. One must remember the AKC standard - too. The Standard calls for "moderate" muzzle and you will see the word "balance" throughout the standard. Balance is key on a Maltese and this includes the face in my opinion. I have several very short muzzled Maltese, but I also have a Maltese with a more moderate Muzzle, but perhaps they have more neck, leg overall more elegance. 

The key is balance. I have Cosy's father - Ch. Angel's Validian Raising Spirit. He is very short muzzled and tends to produce this, but not always. I have two of his offspring puppies I am currently watching for show. A boy and a girl. The boy is extremely short muzzle and tiny - maybe too small not sure yet. His sisters is a more elegant girl with a very pretty head (not extreme), but lovely length of neck and good leg. 

The other funny thing about this -- is people will have very different interpretations on what short truly is. Maltese are not meant to be white Shih Tzu they are meant to be very balance, small refined white dogs with faces that are in proportion with the rest of the entire picture of that particular Maltese.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (ariamaltese @ Nov 22 2009, 09:17 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=853742


> The other funny thing about this -- is people will have very different interpretations on what short truly is. Maltese are not meant to be white Shih Tzu they are meant to be very balance, small refined white dogs with faces that are in proportion with the rest of the entire picture of that particular Maltese.
> 
> Heidi
> Aria Maltese[/B]


Hi Heidi--I love what you said about a Maltese not being a white Shih Tzu. Also about balance and elegance. At Nationals in Vancouver this year I watched a young very elegant bitch that I fell for come in (I think it was) 3rd, and when the judge was asked what they didn't like about her it was that she had too much leg. To my eye she was just the most elegant balanced thing I've seen in a while. I know you can get too much neck and leg, but I thought she was amazing. Of course I'm not the expert, but I would like to see more of that elegance rather than going the other way to a chunkier dog. Also, the really short muzzled, very wide eye set is very cute on a pet, they look like stuffed toys, but I want a more balanced, what I think of as _natural_ face. 

What looks _right_ to my eye is just that, and not the same for everyone.  
Dee


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Actually, the standard calls for the body to be compact..that would mean not up on leg or too tall.
As has been mentioned here before, they are to be equal in length (from withers to root of tail)
and height (withers to ground).


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Nov 22 2009, 03:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=853755


> Actually, the standard calls for the body to be compact..that would mean not up on leg or too tall.
> As has been mentioned here before, they are to be equal in length (from withers to root of tail)
> and height (withers to ground).[/B]



Yes. Again - balanced. "the height from the withers to the ground equaling the length from the withers to the root of the tail". The trick here is again where does the root of tail hit...If the tail set is low set and you apply what is stated above, the Matlese will likely look too rectangular. The standard states "proportion, equal, medium" throughout. The only time it does not is in reference to the neck carriage "...promoting a high neck carriage" although the word "sufficient" precedes this reference. Again, up to the breeder to consider what makes a Maltese meet "sufficient" neck carriage to "promote a high neck carriage" -- again, this is why there is interpretation.


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