# Breeders



## Tombstonebilly (Aug 2, 2005)

I would like to have a female about 6 months to a year old ,would there be anything wrong with asking a breeder for one? I would have her spayed so it wouldnt be for stud just a pet. I am thinking of maybe a girl that may have a problem with having babies or something. The reason I want one is my last little girl( gone but not forgotten)







was one year old and she had a hard time having puppies so the breeder let me have her, and was trained very easy. Would this be a thing breeders generally do or was she just being nice? I would pay full price.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

A "retiree" that young might be hard to find. Breeders do often adopt out their "retirees" for the price of spaying and teeth cleaning, which is done before they release them to you. However, these babies are usually five to seven years old. I imagine there are situations where a younger Malt is having trouble with giving birth, etc. but I imagine those situations are hard to find out about. 

If I were in your shoes I would contact via email all of the top breeders and tell them your situation. I would make the letter very businesslike and professional and tell them all about yourself and why you would make a good mommy for one of their retirees or "problem" females. 

The fact that you've been a Malt owner before is bound to be a plus. 

All the very best of luck to you!!!


----------



## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I don't think you would have any trouble at all finding a puppy that was 6 mos to a year old. Most of the breeders that are watching a puppy for show potential don't know until at least 6 months about bite and the right "attitude" for show. That is exactly how I got Sassy. She was being evaluated for show and her bite was slow to come in. When it finally did, it was overshot and the breeder was not going to be able to show her. 

Like you, I found that the slightly older puppy is easier regarding food, potty training, sleeping, etc.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by msmagnolia_@Nov 9 2005, 05:08 PM
> *I don't think you would have any trouble at all finding a puppy that was 6 mos to a year old.  Most of the breeders that are watching a puppy for show potential don't know until at least 6 months about bite and the right "attitude" for show.  That is exactly how I got Sassy.  She was being evaluated for show and her bite was slow to come in.  When it finally did, it was overshot and the breeder was not going to be able to show her.
> 
> Like you, I found that the slightly older puppy is easier regarding food, potty training, sleeping, etc.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118450*


[/QUOTE]


I absolutly agree.







That is EXACTLY how I got Bella, too. I'd just ask a couple breeders that you like if they would put you on a "to be called list" if one of their show prospects falls out of favor for the show ring. The reasons for being placed in a pet home are usually those stated...the bite goes off....the puppy doesn't grow to a sufficient size.....or the personality "attitude" isn't right for the show ring. (For males it is usually one of those same reasons....or a testicle doesn't drop.)

You MIGHT also be able to get a young retiree that has trouble getting pregnant or has trouble birthing pups ....but those girls would definitely be older than six months of age. :new_Eyecrazy: 

Wishing you success,

~carole and bella~


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Carole_@Nov 9 2005, 09:30 PM
> *You MIGHT also be able to get a young retiree that has trouble getting pregnant or has trouble birthing pups ....but those girls would definitely be older than six months of age. :new_Eyecrazy:
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118513*


[/QUOTE]
I was going to say that good breeders wouldn't breed a female until their 2nd heat. So not sure if you would find one between 6-12 months that needs to be sold because of that. I would look for one that was being kept as a potential show dog, but didn't make it.


----------



## Tombstonebilly (Aug 2, 2005)

Thank You for all your replys, my wife and I are going to start contacting breeders in our area and hope we can find one.








Just had another dog added here it seems someone moved away from some apartments across the street from a friend and left behind a female cocker spaniel , my friend put out flyers and listed in the paper for two weeks but no one claimed her so we have taken her in, we have a large fenched in yard and the dog is really busy checking it out. she must have been raised in an apartment because she acts like a yard is all new to her.


----------



## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

I don't know if she is still available, but Snocap Maltese has a 9 month old female available on their site. Might want to check it out.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Pippinsmom_@Nov 10 2005, 05:28 PM
> *I don't know if she is still available, but Snocap Maltese has a 9 month old female available on their site.  Might want to check it out.
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

This is an excellent breeder. She is gorgeous!! 










Sno-Cap Maltese Puppies Available
He also has a female born in December 2004 for $1,000.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

The Snowcap female is lovely! I rarely see a male puppy 9 mo. to year available. Seems like they are usually female. Not good from my point of view.


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Nov 10 2005, 04:49 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is an excellent breeder. She is gorgeous!! 










Sno-Cap Maltese Puppies Available
He also has a female born in December 2004 for $1,000.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118751
[/B][/QUOTE]

OH MY GOD, she is gorgeous. I would even fly there to get her. I am in love!!!


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

Does anyone know this breeder personally. Do you think they will consider placing her outside the US? Of course i will be more than happy to fly to get her, but do you guys think i might have a shot with this girl. Really, i can`t stop looking at the picture, i am not going to get any sleep tonight. Advice anyone?


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mmo_@Nov 10 2005, 08:13 PM
> *Does anyone know this breeder personally. Do you think they will consider placing her outside the US? Of course i will be more than happy to fly to get her, but do you guys think i might have a shot with this girl. Really, i can`t stop looking at the picture, i am not going to get any sleep tonight. Advice anyone?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118768*


[/QUOTE]

The breeder is a good friend of the owner of Rhapsody Maltese... IMHO one of the very best in the U.S. I see on his site that his address is now in Texas so he must have moved to be near Rhapsody's owner. You should call... it can't hurt to ask.


----------



## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

I'd definately call because you wont know without asking. Phoebe has snocap and is the coolest little thing. Of course I'm bias







I think this one looks alot like my Phoebe, minus the red face







I only deal with Tonia, as Phoebe was her project, and from what I know of her she is totally great and I'd assume Al is too. I cant wait to hear what happens. Sounds like the age thing is perfect for you







and you cannot beat the price!


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

For those who may be interested in that gorgeous Sno-cap girl I think I would call tonight. She is likely to not be there long. She is breathtaking.


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

We called. She is 2500 dlls, i was hoping more or less the price of the other girl that they have available. They are placing her due to some patella problems and she is going to be spayed before she goes to her new home. (fine with me! BUT)
I know she is worth it but unfortunately that`s too much for me as i also has to pay for the air ticket and hotel to get her. I am heartbroken and i shouldn`t be because i know this girl is extra special. I guess this wasn`t meant to be.








Anyway, i am officially searching for a girl now...


----------



## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

She has patella problems and they are still charging that much??? Geez. Didn't someone just post that the patella surgery is like $1600 per knee. I guess I've had just enough wine to think that is WAY too much to charge for this little girl.

PS. In fairness, at least they are disclosing the info up front.


----------



## sassy14830 (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mmo_@Nov 10 2005, 11:27 PM
> *We called. She is 2500 dlls, i was hoping more or less the price of the other girl that they have available. They are placing her due to some patella problems and she is going to be spayed before she goes to her new home. (fine with me! BUT)
> I know she is worth it but unfortunately that`s too much for me as i also has to pay for the air ticket and hotel to get her. I am heartbroken and i shouldn`t be because i know this girl is extra special. I guess this wasn`t meant to be.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
I just thought I would let you know Treasure is a boy and what a sweetie both of them are.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Frosty's Mom_@Nov 10 2005, 06:56 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Sarah reported that Treasure is a boy!!!!! Maybe you should give them a call!!!










Info from the site: Treasure's DOB December 2004 - $1,000 - should be 4.5-5 pounds - He is in long coat right now.

Sno-Cap Puppy Page


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

About the patella, Al told us she may or may not have problems. They are just not keeping her because she can`t be bred or showed because of this.
The new owner has to be extra careful and don`t let her jump or force her knees too much which i would. 
And i don`t know how i thought Treasure was a girl, i guess i got confused about the excitement and i now understand the price difference. Thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

The female puppy is gorgeous but my question is this -- if she is having luxating patellas this early in life (she is only 9 months), it is genetic. Sure, you could rest her but it will never stop luxating once its already doing so. Our vets (and we asked many) said that it only gets worse not better. By limiting her activity she will gain weight, which will make matters worse, and besides, can you really do this her whole life?


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

I don`t have any experience on luxating patellas or any other illnesses. I`ve been blessed to have very healthy dogs, only minor problems. I guess i got carried away by her breathtaking beauty, i am glad she is out of my budget







and i want a girl so bad.








I am learning a lot here and i thank you all for your advice. I will certainly consult with you guys before making a decision.
Thanks you again


----------



## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I KNOW that you can find a girl. How far into the US are you willing to come? Maybe you should email breeders in the area that you could get to and explain your situation and ask them to let you know if they can help you, or know of anyone else who could.


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

If you are willing to travel to the midwest (Chicago area) I know that there are some really good breeders. I have also heard the prices are less than the east and west coast. Not sure how they compare to the southwest.


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

The most "comfortable" places for me are Florida, Texas, California and maybe NY if i can get a good deal on the airfare. I can get plane tickets from 250-350 to these states, 
I have to check the rates to Chicago though.
I REALLY appreciate you guys giving me moral support on my search!!! I am so happy i found you


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I will give Al Fritterer a TON of credit for being forthright and honest though.





















IMHO it shows he is a trustworthy one truly trying to better the breed by not adding this girl to his program and being honest with the buyer.

My other concern is that the fur-angel looks like she might have staining. I don't know if is is just the shadowing on the picture or she has a staining problem. I would not pay the higher end price for a Maltese with staining. Did Al mention anything about a staining problem, mmo? She sure has a DARLING FACE though.









~carole and bella~


----------



## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Carole_@Nov 11 2005, 11:28 AM
> *I will give Al Fritter a TON of credit for being forthright and honest though.
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I am thinking this too... Phoebe has a darling face but she is red red red and now I'm noticing these snocaps seem to be red red red. Do you think they all just have the tendency to want to clean the floor or something? Is that the genetic factor?


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

He was indeed honest and upfront, that`s always appreciated. I too appreciated the fact that he was willing to talk to us eventhough we are out of the country.
He didn`t mention tearstaining and i didn`t ask since Nacho doesn`t have any staining whatsoever, that wasn`t a concern to me i guess. I was so excited that this could be my dream girl that i missed to ask about that.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mmo_@Nov 11 2005, 12:11 PM
> *He was indeed honest and upfront, that`s always appreciated. I too appreciated the fact that he was willing to talk to us eventhough we are out of the country.
> He didn`t mention tearstaining and i didn`t ask since Nacho doesn`t have any staining whatsoever, that wasn`t a concern to me i guess. I was so excited that this could be my dream girl that i missed to ask about that.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118926*


[/QUOTE]


Just remember that tear staining is due to other factors than genetics. Many nice dogs will tear wheen teething, but have no problem later. Also, problems with the ears (mites) are one of the most common causes of tearing.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I wish all the breeders would show pictures of what they are offering on their websites and who the dam and sire are. That way you'd know if you even want to bother with an initial contact. I will say that girl you had some hope in, mmo, has a heart stopping face.





















Most breeders (even the top ones) won't guarantee about luxating patellas down the road with a puppy you purchase. I guess it is just something that is to common in our breed.

Did Al say who the dam and sire of the little girl was?

Nice to have the forum to hash things out with each other when one of us are on the hunt for a fur-child.









~carole and bella~


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou+Nov 11 2005, 10:27 AM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just remember that tear staining is due to other factors than genetics. Many nice dogs will tear wheen teething, but have no problem later. Also, problems with the ears (mites) are one of the most common causes of tearing.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118933
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi LucyLou,
I think many if not most puppies tearstain during teething...but I would think a 9 month old would be pretty much past the teething period wouldn't it? Do you think it could just be left over from the younger period? I also would not expect a kennel that ask the higher end of pricing to have ear mites.







Heck, it may not be staining at all but simply shadows.







Does it look like staining to you LucyLou?

~carole and bella~


----------



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I think she is very pretty and I don't even see any tear staining on her. Females from reputable breeders are usually $2000 and up. Do you have a budget?


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Carole+Nov 11 2005, 12:43 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*[/QUOTE]

Hi LucyLou,
I think many if not most puppies tearstain during teething...but I would think a 9 month old would be pretty much past the teething period wouldn't it? Do you think it could just be left over from the younger period? I also would not expect a kennel that ask the higher end of pricing to have ear mites.







Heck, it may not be staining at all but simply shadows.







Does it look like staining to you LucyLou?

~carole and bella~
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118940
[/B][/QUOTE]

The response I wrote was a general one, and not directed at this or any kennel. 
The pup in the picture does not look like it has tear staining to me.


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CharmyPoo_@Nov 11 2005, 02:11 PM
> *I think she is very pretty and I don't even see any tear staining on her.  Females from reputable breeders are usually $2000 and up.  Do you have a budget?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118959*


[/QUOTE]

I was hoping to spend 2000 with the trip or shipping included. But i guess i need to save some more money if i want a pretty girl like Natalie (that`s her name and i even like the name







, it sounds good). Nacho and Natalie, awww


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

I only found 2 breeders that had females for less than $2000. One was an AMA mentor in Northwestern Iowa. Her females were $1500. The other was Chalet de Maltese, in West Virginia. Her female (at least the one I looked at) was $1800. All the other show breeders I contacted had females for $2000 and up


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mmo+Nov 11 2005, 12:40 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was hoping to spend 2000 with the trip or shipping included. But i guess i need to save some more money if i want a pretty girl like Natalie (that`s her name and i even like the name







, it sounds good). Nacho and Natalie, awww
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118970
[/B][/QUOTE]


Nacho and Natalie does sound cute I agree.














I do wonder about those that use the first letter for both their Maltese. Do you ever get tongue twisted when calling or scolding? My dauther named my grandkids Katie and Kenny. Now she wished she didn't cuz she always calls at them with the wrong name when she is upset.  Of course my mom always called me and my sis by the wrong name and our names are nothing alike.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Nov 11 2005, 12:18 PM
> *The pup in the picture does not look like it has tear staining to me.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118962*


[/QUOTE]


Maybe it is just a little shadowing or the lighting then...Natalie sure is a cute faced one!


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Carole+Nov 11 2005, 04:06 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*[/QUOTE]


Nacho and Natalie does sound cute I agree.














I do wonder about those that use the first letter for both their Maltese. Do you ever get tongue twisted when calling or scolding? My dauther named my grandkids Katie and Kenny. Now she wished she didn't cuz she always calls at them with the wrong name when she is upset.  Of course my mom always called me and my sis by the wrong name and our names are nothing alike. 
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118995
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think that happens in any family. My mom named us Brian, Brad and Kristi. I've been called by both my brothers' names and I know they've been called mine. Heck I've been called Oreo (my parent's dog's name).


----------



## AJ (Jun 5, 2005)

I LOVE Natalie, she is just gorgeous, what a beautiful face!!!!


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Carole+Nov 11 2005, 04:06 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*[/QUOTE]


Nacho and Natalie does sound cute I agree.














I do wonder about those that use the first letter for both their Maltese. Do you ever get tongue twisted when calling or scolding? My dauther named my grandkids Katie and Kenny. Now she wished she didn't cuz she always calls at them with the wrong name when she is upset.  Of course my mom always called me and my sis by the wrong name and our names are nothing alike. 
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=118995
[/B][/QUOTE]

I wish i could get tongue twisted but i am not getting Natalie







. Maybe i can call my dream girl Natalie when i find her. 
About the names, my grandmother always call everyone by the wrong name and i can tell you ALL the first letters of our names are different. LOL


----------



## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

The puppy doesn't look tearstained to me. But why is it such a big deal anyways????? I have a dog who we got from a backyard breeder with NO tearstaining. Frankly, I would worry a LOT more about the patellas than tearstaining (cosmetics vs health).


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by okw_@Nov 11 2005, 06:09 PM
> *The puppy doesn't look tearstained to me.  But why is it such a big deal anyways?????  I have a dog who we got from a backyard breeder with NO tearstaining.  Frankly, I would worry a LOT more about the patellas than tearstaining (cosmetics vs health).
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=119058*


[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree!. I am just saying I ALSO will NOT pay $2500 for a dog with tear staining.







If others are willing then so be it. I am just speaking for me self.








I feel $2,500 is to much to put out for a Maltese with bad knees already and tear staining. If it has no tear stain ...it still is to much to put out for a Maltese that's knees are already popping.... unless the breeder is going to help towards the surgery down the road.


----------



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Well ... one of my two pups will need another home







They both have excellent patellas at this point. They are still both show quality so they will need show homes. But if at 6 months and you don't have a pup yet and one of their bites go off .. I will let u know to see if you are interested.


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CharmyPoo_@Nov 11 2005, 10:19 PM
> *Well ... one of my two pups will need another home
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I PM you.


----------



## Tombstonebilly (Aug 2, 2005)

That $2000 is a lot more than I can afford I was looking at 800-1000.00 at the most, In the local paper they are asking 500-1000.00 for female pups.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tombstonebilly_@Nov 12 2005, 09:20 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

It probably is best not to buy from your local paper. What area of the country are you located in?


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I agree with Kallie/Catcher's Mom.....









You can buy cheaply from a newspaper ad but you will likely pay the difference down the road in medical costs and likely you'll be getting a poorly socialized pet. In my humble opinion it is better to wait and save a little longer and buy from a better breeder ....You will improve your odds of getting a healthy and well socialized fur-angel.


----------



## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

I disagree. I got Toby from a newspaper ad and he is fine. He is well socialized (even if he weren't, I wouldn't have blamed that on the breeder; that would have been MY fault), comes from a decent background of pedigrees and the breeder cared for him. Not all newspaper ads are bad. The reason the breeder placed Toby's ad in the paper is because the original person who was to purchase him backed out. To this day, I still keep in contact with the breeder and she is interested in Toby's well being. 

I believe that if you ask the right questions and get a good "vibe" from the breeder then you can most certainly end up with a wonderful dog. 

I believe that you have to do what you think is right. There are many well known breeders out there who don't necessarily follow those "golden rules" of Malt breeding but for some reason so many on here put them on such a high pedestal.


----------



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I tend to agree that you can get a good Maltese from any sources. The key is to investigate more and find out what things really are like. Newspapers may have more bad breeders but not all of them are bad.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Nichole_@Nov 13 2005, 02:43 PM
> *I disagree.  I got Toby from a newspaper ad and he is fine.  He is well socialized (even if he weren't, I wouldn't have blamed that on the breeder; that would have been MY fault), comes from a decent background of pedigrees and the breeder cared for him.  Not all newspaper ads are bad.  The reason the breeder placed Toby's ad in the paper is because the original person who was to purchase him backed out.  To this day, I still keep in contact with the breeder and she is interested in Toby's well being.
> 
> I believe that if you ask the right questions and get a good "vibe" from the breeder then you can most certainly end up with a wonderful dog.
> ...


[/QUOTE]


I'm on another site where there are a lot of well known breeders. Advertising, specifically the newspapers came up last month. One well known breeder said just about what you said, Nichole. Many trash the internet for buying, but, look how many of the well known breeders are posted all over that? It's all about doing your research, and getting the right pup for you.

I just returned from a dog show. One of my best friends has two different breeds (not Maltese), and she has bought show dogs from three of the "well known" in her breed--based on their reputation. All three of the breeders turned out to be scum when it came to standing behind their dogs, getting the paperwork, and providing quality dogs. Yesterday, the mother to one of the breeders was at the show. She came up to my friend to apologize to her for becoming involved with her daughter. She said it shamed her that her daughter had charged her so much for something that was not what it was represented to be. Now, this is an elderly woman who is now living in a motorhome because her daughter--the breeder-- is so heavily on drugs that she kicked her mom out of the house. The daughter's dogs were there at the show yesterday, being shown by a well known handler, and people will still be interested in obtaining her "great" dogs. One of the other dogs came to my friend very sick. The breeder did take it back and nurse it back to health, but when my friend went to her home to pick it up (she got it the first time at a dog show), she found out the woman was just a big puppymill with an outhouse full of dogs. The third breeder who has finished more champions than most in her breed is adament about not shipping her dogs. Know how she sells the bulk of them--through a broker. She has a couple hundred, living in crates in her home. This breeder and her husband got into an argument recently, and he was overheard telling her that she needed to clean up her act because they had already been run out of California because of the way she treated people who bought from her. 
On another note, one of the top Pom breeders has about 300 dogs. She raises hers in a chicken house type setting. On any given weekend, there are a number of her dogs being shown in the ring. Wonder how many know where they started out?

Whether you get a dog from the pound, the newspaper, the internet, your relatives, or a well known breeder, you need to still do your homework. There are good and bad dogs at all levels.


----------



## Lacie2 (Sep 23, 2005)

I think some of the people on here have made some very good points, especially LucyLou. 
Maybe y'all can explain something that I don't undrstand :new_Eyecrazy: . Why do breeders charge more for girl puppies? Everyone says that it doesn't make any difference if you get a male or female because Reputable breeders insist pet quality has to be spade or nutered. If you have them spade or nutered then why the difference in price?


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Lacie2_@Nov 13 2005, 05:08 PM
> *I think some of the people on here have made some very good points, especially LucyLou.
> Maybe y'all can explain something that I don't undrstand  :new_Eyecrazy: .  Why do breeders charge more for girl puppies?  Everyone says that it doesn't make any difference if you get a male or female because Reputable breeders insist pet quality has to be spade or nutered.  If you have them spade or nutered then why the difference in price?
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


When one plans a breeding program, they don't need a lot of males to do it. You want to have one or two top sires to develop a line. You do need females to work with though. So, what happens to the other males.....supply and demand....you sell them. And, if more breeders need more females and less males, then there are more males available for sale. 
In my case, my friend and I co-own two of our males. I think she has six dogs she can breed, and I have about the same number. Since all my adults will be retiring within the next two years, I need new females to replace them. Also, I'm trying to build a nice line of Maltese, which I am doing with breeding selectively. Since a good female of show quality can run me around $5000, it's easier to just keep the best I have. Also, to build a reputation, I need to have my own dogs from my breedings in the ring. I don't need another male now, or in the next few years. I can also pay a stud fee or do a swap (as I did this summer) if I want to do an outside breeding. So, all my male pups will be for sale. And, since I don't want to keep all of them for six months or longer to see if they will go into a show home, I'm willing to sell them at a cheaper price. Hope this helps.


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou+Nov 13 2005, 05:27 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When one plans a breeding program, they don't need a lot of males to do it. You want to have one or two top sires to develop a line. You do need females to work with though. So, what happens to the other males.....supply and demand....you sell them. And, if more breeders need more females and less males, then there are more males available for sale. 
In my case, my friend and I co-own two of our males. I think she has six dogs she can breed, and I have about the same number. Since all my adults will be retiring within the next two years, I need new females to replace them. Also, I'm trying to build a nice line of Maltese, which I am doing with breeding selectively. Since a good female of show quality can run me around $5000, it's easier to just keep the best I have. Also, to build a reputation, I need to have my own dogs from my breedings in the ring. I don't need another male now, or in the next few years. I can also pay a stud fee or do a swap (as I did this summer) if I want to do an outside breeding. So, all my male pups will be for sale. And, since I don't want to keep all of them for six months or longer to see if they will go into a show home, I'm willing to sell them at a cheaper price. Hope this helps.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=119322
[/B][/QUOTE]

This certainly explains a lot. Lucy Lou, i`ve learned so much by reading your posts. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and best of luck with your babies.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tombstonebilly_@Nov 12 2005, 09:20 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Have you considered rescue? The adoption fee is much less that the $2000 price tag of some puppies and all the dogs have been vet checked and had any medical care they might need.

Young dogs come into rescue, too, but they aren't often posted on websites or petfinder.com since there is usually a pre-approved adopter waiting for just the right one. Usually the ones you see that are posted are seniors or harder to place for some reason.

If you are at all interested, Northcentral Maltese is a wonderful rescue. http://malteserescue.homestead.com/


----------



## cindysilver (May 15, 2005)

LucyLou, that makes a lot of sense (about why males are cheaper). I actually assumed it was because...

Regardless of the contract the person signs when they buy a dog (to fix the dog by 6 months old), usually there isn't anyway to enforce it if the BUYER isn't going into the BIG SHOW market or something. If they just decide to breed their dog and sell the puppies on the newspaper or something, then HOW will the initial breeder know?







Exactly. They won't. I mean, I got Jack fixed ONE DAY after 6 months old, and I was kind of ashamed that I "broke" the contract... but then thinking about it .... I was like, if I were unscrupulous or didn't knwo the risks, I could just breed Jack to any old dog I wanted, and what would my breeder know about it??? nuthin. ....

So, I figured females were cheaper because if you don't fix them, you can "make tons of puppies" in the eyes of the uneducated. Good to know that I was mistaken!!!


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I was under the impression that most reputable breeders kept in touch with their puppies afterwards, especially long enough to make sure that they were spayed or neutered as promised. 

Didn't Jack's breeder check to see if you'd had him neutered?


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

My breeder never checked. Any breeder that is considered reputable requires spaying when selling a pet puppy and gives a limited AKC registration instead of the full registration. So any puppies that came from such a breeding would not be able to be registered with the AKC, which would likely make them less desirable to would-be purchasers. In the "old" days this would be enough to ensure pretty much that the dog would not be bred.

However, nowadays with the lesser registration groups being around, they may actually have no problem registering those puppies... But I'm not sure about that....


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by cindysilver_@Nov 14 2005, 01:16 PM
> *LucyLou, that makes a lot of sense (about why males are cheaper).  I actually assumed it was because...
> 
> Regardless of the contract the person signs when they buy a dog (to fix the dog by 6 months old), usually there isn't anyway to enforce it if the BUYER isn't going into the BIG SHOW market or something.  If they just decide to breed their dog and sell the puppies on the newspaper or something, then HOW will the initial breeder know?
> ...


[/QUOTE]


I'm sure your reasoning is also true with some people too. Right now, I'm holding papers on two dogs because I have no proof of spay/neuter. I no longer let the paperwork go until this has been done. I've found that people just post your pedigree, breed the dogs and register to another registry, and have no concern for contracts. While I don't have this with mine that I know of, I see it on various sites on the internet. It's been suggested on another site that only the dog's call name be put on the contract--not the registration number. There is a puppymill in my state who posts like this. She even uses show pictures from other breeders on her site. I'm sure she acquired her dog without full AKC papers, but it doesn't stop her from selling them like she does, advertising that parents are champions. 
I don't get response back on at least 75% of my inquiries when I explain that my dogs do not go out with full registration unless on show contract. Some of the responses I do get back are nasty. I just answered an email from a man who not only inquired about a pup, but wanted to know what else I would sell him. I sent him the email about pets on spay/neuter and show contracts for full registration, so I doubt I'll hear back from him. 
On a funny note, I also got an email from someone this morning who wanted to know if I deliver--four states away! I told them only back yard breeders and puppymills did that. Reputable people expected to have a visit from prospective buyers to see if they felt comfortable placing a pup with them.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Nov 14 2005, 01:20 PM
> *I was under the impression that most reputable breeders kept in touch with their puppies afterwards, especially long enough to make sure that they were spayed or neutered as promised.
> 
> Didn't Jack's breeder check to see if you'd had him neutered?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=119513*


[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, you get some who find excuses as to why they just haven't done it. The only way to enforce this would be to put in the contract that the dog must be returned to the breeder if not spay/neutered by a certain date.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Wow! Your insider stories of the dark side of the breeding world are fascinating!

I know Lexi's mom mentioned that one of the breeders she spoke to while looking for Nikki kept the puppies until 4 months old and had them spayed or neutered before they were sent to their new homes. Maybe more breeders will have to do this to protcet themselves?

I know most shelters spay or neuter their pets before adoption now, even the puppies.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Nov 14 2005, 01:40 PM
> *Wow! Your insider stories of the dark side of the breeding world are fascinating!
> 
> I know Lexi's mom mentioned that one of the breeders she spoke to while looking for Nikki kept the puppies until 4 months old and had them spayed or neutered before they were sent to their new homes. Maybe more breeders will have to do this to protcet themselves?
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Remember, I'm just as involved with rescue as I am with breeding, so I hunt out this kind of stuff.


----------



## Tombstonebilly (Aug 2, 2005)

Rescue is the first place I looked and put my name on their waiting list (in fact three of them ) But I am also looking at mixed pups-maltese/poodle seems to make a nice mix


----------



## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Carole_@Nov 13 2005, 11:15 AM
> *I agree with Kallie/Catcher's Mom.....
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Actually, just from being on these forums, I have seen serious health problems even after paying $3000 for a pup. I also think lots of times the socialization or lack of it is how the owner takes care of the pup (assuming it wasn't a puppy who spent first 12 weeks of life in a crate constantly). I think training can go a LONG way. I also think that what someone considers behavior issues is being a "spoiled brat" to another person. I just don't think all these issues are as simple as we sometimes claim they are.


----------



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I find that it is up to the pet owner to keep in touch with the breeders. The only breeder that actively keeps in touch with me is Sparkle and my pups breeder. The others will respond when I email but they will not email to ask how they are doing. However, my mentors frequently email and see how I am.


----------



## mpd (Jun 2, 2005)

After reading these posts, I have to admit that the spay/neuter contract clause is a bit shortsighted! If these maltese dogs being sold by show breeders have such great genetics, meet standards, etc... wouldn't you want those dogs to multiply and crowd out the ones who are sickly, not withing standards? 

Does it have more to do with fear of competition in the show arena than what is best in the long-term future of the Maltese breed? I would think that even the best most perfect dog would not do well in competition without all that goes along with it? the training, the grooming, etc... A lot of the champions would probably look like our pet quality ones if inexperienced owners like me who can't groom them myself owned them!?









I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings about the shortsightedness remark. It is just something that I truly do not understand.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mpd_@Nov 15 2005, 05:03 AM
> *After reading these posts, I have to admit that the spay/neuter contract clause is a bit shortsighted!  If these maltese dogs being sold by show breeders have such great genetics, meet standards, etc...  wouldn't you want those dogs to multiply and crowd out the ones who are sickly, not withing standards?
> 
> Does it have more to do with fear of competition in the show arena than what is best in the long-term future of the Maltese breed?  I would think that even the best most perfect dog would not do well in competition without all that goes along with it?  the training, the grooming, etc...  A lot of the champions would probably look like our pet quality ones if inexperienced owners like me who can't groom them myself owned them!?
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I believe a couple of the reasons for the spay/neuter contract is that even if the puppy you buy is show quality, the breeder would have no guarantee that you would breed him or her to a dog of similar quality. Heck, you could breed it with a poodle, Yorkie, etc. Or you could use the female as a breeding bitch and breed and breed and breed her. So, I would think that the spay/neuter contract is to protect the breed standard and to protect the dog.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mpd_@Nov 15 2005, 05:03 AM
> *After reading these posts, I have to admit that the spay/neuter contract clause is a bit shortsighted!  If these maltese dogs being sold by show breeders have such great genetics, meet standards, etc...  wouldn't you want those dogs to multiply and crowd out the ones who are sickly, not withing standards?
> 
> Does it have more to do with fear of competition in the show arena than what is best in the long-term future of the Maltese breed?  I would think that even the best most perfect dog would not do well in competition without all that goes along with it?  the training, the grooming, etc...  A lot of the champions would probably look like our pet quality ones if inexperienced owners like me who can't groom them myself owned them!?
> ...


[/QUOTE]


If people got these dogs with the great genetics, etc. and bred them to other good dogs to improve the line, that might be one thing. But, it is common knowledge that many will, like K/C said just breed them to anything and use the pedigree for "advertising". I just got information last night about a puppymill in Georgia. I have documentation from state inspections where they have around 300 dogs. These people are going around to dog shows, telling lies in order to acquire show dogs. They have numerous breeds in their kennel, and when the person who gave me the information was there, about 80 to 100 litters of puppies. Now, you tell me they are working to improve anything but their pocketbook. So far, they have lied their way into acquiring at least one champion. The place is known as Puppy Palace.
It is a compliment to have your dog's offspring in the ring. This says that you are doing what you should be doing, and others will seek out your dogs. Now, if you sell a dog with your pedigree name on it, and someone breeds it to junk and goes out there showing off the offspring, it is a bad reflection on you. Or, if they don't know how to present it correctly in the ring, it still looks bad for you because your genetics are on that dog too. That is why many people also want to know who is going to be showing the dog, or will mentor the people to make sure the dog is presented correctly.


----------



## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

A dog sold by a show breeder as pet quality is just that - pet quality. It has some characteristic that keeps it from meeting the standard. Lets use Sadie and Sassy as an example. Their breeding lines are very good. Sadie has a thinner coat and her nose isn't completely black and her pads have pink in them. Sassy's bite came in overshot. If I chose to breed them then I might be passing along some of these less than desirable traits to another maltese, and their offspring so further and further away from breed standard. I would not be doing the maltese community a service to breed them, especially when I know absolutely nothing about genetics and what sorts of things to breed in and out of a line. 

If a dog is sold as show quality, then the spay and neuter thing is completely different, right? I thought that if you bought a show quality dog, you were working with the breeder because you planned to show the dog, etc. In that case you wouldn't spay or neuter them anyway. 

This is my understanding of why those interested in breeding should work with mentors and others who have a good working knowledge to continue to work for the betterment of the breed.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by msmagnolia_@Nov 15 2005, 02:24 PM
> *A dog sold by a show breeder as pet quality is just that - pet quality.  It has some characteristic that keeps it from meeting the standard.  Lets use Sadie and Sassy as an example.  Their breeding lines are very good.  Sadie has a thinner coat and her nose isn't completely black and her pads have pink in them.  Sassy's bite came in overshot.  If I chose to breed them then I might be passing along some of these less than desirable traits to another maltese, and their offspring so further and further away from breed standard.  I would not be doing the maltese community a service to breed them, especially when I know absolutely nothing about genetics and what sorts of things to breed in and out of a line.
> 
> If a dog is sold as show quality, then the spay and neuter thing is completely different, right?  I thought that if you bought a show quality dog, you were working with the breeder because you planned to show the dog, etc.  In that case you wouldn't spay or neuter them anyway.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

This is true; however, especially with males, there may be some sold for pets that are actually show quality. Show pups are usually sold around six months of age when bite can be determined and testicles down for males. It requires a lot of work to keep that pup in show condition until it is ready to be sold. Because not as many males are needed, the market isn't that strong for them. So, a number of breeders will let them go to pet homes at 12 weeks. In my opinion, it is better for them to have a loving home if it is available at that age. I heard a well known handler talking to someone getting a pet pup from her once. They asked what the difference in their pup and show pups were at that age, and she told them "three months". In other words, in three months, that pup might show the qualities she wanted for the ring, and it might be a pet. On another note, I know of one breeder who was going to sell a male pup for $100 because she didn't like him when he was young. Long story short, she changed her mind, and he developed into one of the most beautiful examples of the breed and finished his championship at an early age.
I'll give you a personal example. I have a girl who is almost three. She had her first litter four weeks ago. I bred her sister last year, and I got great pups. I wanted a girl from this breeding. I got two males. One is already quite impressive. I didn't get the girl I wanted, and I don't need the boys. Now, do I hold these boys for six months to see if they do what I think they are capable of, or do I find them a nice pet home and sell on a neuter contract? I'm going to be breeding my new male to a nice female in a few weeks, and people are already asking for his pups, so I'll probably sell these boys as pets and spend my time working with any promising males from the other boy, if they arrive in the planned litter.


----------



## mpd (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou+Nov 15 2005, 02:34 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If people got these dogs with the great genetics, etc. and bred them to other good dogs to improve the line, that might be one thing. But, it is common knowledge that many will, like K/C said just breed them to anything and use the pedigree for "advertising". I just got information last night about a puppymill in Georgia. I have documentation from state inspections where they have around 300 dogs. These people are going around to dog shows, telling lies in order to acquire show dogs. They have numerous breeds in their kennel, and when the person who gave me the information was there, about 80 to 100 litters of puppies. Now, you tell me they are working to improve anything but their pocketbook. So far, they have lied their way into acquiring at least one champion. The place is known as Puppy Palace.
It is a compliment to have your dog's offspring in the ring. This says that you are doing what you should be doing, and others will seek out your dogs. Now, if you sell a dog with your pedigree name on it, and someone breeds it to junk and goes out there showing off the offspring, it is a bad reflection on you. Or, if they don't know how to present it correctly in the ring, it still looks bad for you because your genetics are on that dog too. That is why many people also want to know who is going to be showing the dog, or will mentor the people to make sure the dog is presented correctly.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=119887
[/B][/QUOTE]


Thanks for clarifying things for me. I guess I thought if you are going to breed a maltese you want to breed it to one of similar quality. Hadn't thought about the mix breed breeders or puppy mills. Thanks. That sheds a whole new light on the matter.


----------



## mpd (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Tombstonebilly_@Nov 9 2005, 06:51 PM
> *I would like to have a female about 6 months to a year old ,would there be anything wrong with asking a breeder for one? I would have her spayed so it wouldnt be for stud just a pet. I am thinking of maybe a girl that may have a problem with having babies or something. The reason I want one is my last little girl( gone but not forgotten)
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Did you see this rescue in petfinder.com:?

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displa...i?petid=5337301


----------



## Tombstonebilly (Aug 2, 2005)

I saw that picture he looks like he needs a good home,how can anybody do that to such a little sweet dog.







To bad hes so far away from FL.


----------



## Rhapsody Maltese (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Carole+Nov 11 2005, 09:37 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree!. I am just saying I ALSO will NOT pay $2500 for a dog with tear staining.







If others are willing then so be it. I am just speaking for me self.








I feel $2,500 is to much to put out for a Maltese with bad knees already and tear staining. If it has no tear stain ...it still is to much to put out for a Maltese that's knees are already popping.... unless the breeder is going to help towards the surgery down the road.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=119065
[/B][/QUOTE]


Hello everyone,

This is Tonia Holibaugh from Rhapsody Maltese. I have been watching this forum for a week or so and I am very distress by some of the posts. I decided to join if only for a moment to correct some falacies being tossed around.

Carole .... I am sure your dog from my good friend Angie has perfect patellas and no tear staining, but I am sure she would not promise nor guarantee you either of those situations would stay that way.

I bet if you polled Maltese Pet Owners 90% have tear staining to some degree and at least 60% have some patella issue.

You bought your puppy at a young age ... 3 months ... how would ANYONE know what her patellas or tear staining would look like at 9 months. NO and I mean NO breeder would ever in their right mind guarantee anyone either of these conditions.

Natalie ... Al's puppy, is a $5000 beautiful show puppy that now has a fault that has caused him to decided he doesnt feel comfortable breeding her. Why is her one of her patellas a grade 2 and the other normal? Who knows. MY vet checked her several times in the past and her patellas were fine. This visit they were not. She does not favor her leg, she does not limp. This is a consciencious decision on his part to not breed her. MANY good repuatable breeders would and do. 95% of the time a grade 2 patella will not develop into any major issue for a toy dog. This is barring any injury. And of course she would be more inclined to have a more severe injury because of the predispostion to the luxation.

I am not saying there is not a concern here for Natalie and her patella situation. But, for any of you out there that do not breed dogs to make judgements on this dog by 2nd or 3rd person heresay, is ugly and misleading to those who are not as educated. And as for Al's price, that is his perrogative to set as the breeder. If you dont think she is worth it from a a second hand comment and a poorly lite picture than dont buy her. I noticed how the person who inquired about Natalie from Mexico who orginally posted on this list, failed to include how Al tests at his expense ($250) every puppy he has at 12 weeks by way of PHYSICAL EXAM,CBC, CHEM PANEL AND BILE ACID levels for any testable Maltese related health issue within our power and money BEFORE he places or keeps any dog. Most people's vets do not even know how to check a patella let alone understand the genetic and physical attributes of the long term health of the dog.

I TOOK HER PICTURE. I am sorry that I did not have a photo studio to setup better light for all your viewing pleasure. It was night time and I could have had better light. Natalie does NOT have tear staining. But with comments like this forum is having posted ... WHY would any of us reputable breeders want to put ANY pictures on our site for you all to judge.

I have a puppy available .... and guess what he has TEAR STAINING ... and Im not bleaching it out like most breeders do before they sell there dogs. In my mind tear staining is aestically a nuisance ... and that is it ...

We put in countless hours as breeders caring for our dogs, going to the vet, going to shows, education ourselves, losing sleep, interrupting any kind of persoanl life we can have and investing our hearts into these dogs, so people like you can have the opportunity to buy nice quality Maltese pets. You want perfect dogs for $500 .... I cant get a perfect dog and I have probably spent $500,000 and gave up 15 years of my life. Good luck.

When I read these types of posts, it makes me want to quit breeding. And these dogs are the loves of my life.

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


----------



## Rhapsody Maltese (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by CharmyPoo_@Nov 14 2005, 11:56 PM
> *I find that it is up to the pet owner to keep in touch with the breeders.  The only breeder that actively keeps in touch with me is Sparkle and my pups breeder.  The others will respond when I email but they will not email to ask how they are doing.  However, my mentors frequently email and see how I am.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=119761*


[/QUOTE]

To give you an idea about the breeders side of this, let me give you an idea of my life. I am gone 2/3 of the time to shows. When I am home I have 50-100 calls a day between friends, handling clients and pet calls. I barely can talk to my immediate family. I get about 50-100 personal emails a day and try to keep up with some Breeder Lists. I try to answer every real email, even if it takes me weeks to get to them. I also read health magazines I get from my vet, and try and take care of my dogs. I pay up to 3 people a total of $3000/month to help me care for my dogs, so that I can keep them clean, brushed and happy, as well as socialized. My vet bill is $30,000 a year. My vet and I are personal friends









I do truly care for all of my dogs and many of those I have helped my friends place ... I just dont always have the time to think ... let alone send out emails to check on everybody.

This week alone I have had to do damage control because of this list alone that has consumed hours and hours of my time.

Charmaine ... I do hope Nibbler is doing well .... His breeder asked me about him the other day ....

Janet ... I hope Phoebe is doing ok ... I have some news if you have time to talk









Tonia


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

Just to clarify, i am the person from Mexico who inquired about gorgeous Natalie. I didn`t know how much the breeder spent on her vet care or tests, that why i didn`t post that information. I just said that i wasn`t able to get her at this time because she was out of my price range, sorry about that. I loved Natalie from the first time i saw her and i am really sorry i couldn`t pay for her, i am sure she is worth it.


----------



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rhapsody Maltese_@Nov 17 2005, 09:09 PM
> *Charmaine ... I do hope Nibbler is doing well .... His breeder asked me about him the other day ....*


Hi Tonia,

I am glad to see you post on this forum. We need people like you to help educate us.

I understand the time commitment breeders spend on answering phone calls and emails that is why I said .. it is up to the pet owner to keep in touch with the breeders. We can't possibly expect a breeder to constantly email and see how they are doing. I have found that you always replied to my emails when I wrote dispite your busy schedule.

Nibbler is doing very well now. I have him in a puppy cut right and it looks surpringly darling even though I am used to a longer coat. I will send you some photos.


----------



## dolcevita (Aug 3, 2005)

Tonia, thanks so much for sharing that information with us. Most people have no idea of the work, money, and time involved in breeding and showing, so they don't understand the prices asked by reputable breeders. I think everyone on SM is more than willing to learn. I know I appreciate breeders taking time to educate us. Please don't let the comments on this forum discourage you from breeding.

I thought the photo of Natalie was good--she's beautiful! I didn't think it looked like she had tear stains, but even if she did, so what. Most puppies do.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dolcevita_@Nov 18 2005, 11:44 AM
> *Tonia, thanks so much for sharing that information with us.  Most people have no idea of the work, money, and time involved in breeding and showing, so they don't understand the prices asked by reputable breeders.  I think everyone on SM is more than willing to learn.  I know I appreciate breeders taking time to educate us. Please don't let the comments on this forum discourage you from breeding.
> 
> I thought the photo of Natalie was good--she's beautiful!  I didn't think it looked like she had tear stains, but even if she did, so what.  Most puppies do.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=120859*


[/QUOTE]

I agree, 1000%, dolcevita.

Tonia, I hope you will consider posting here when you have time. We all have one thing in common and that is our love for the Maltese breed. I believe most of us respect the tremendous contributions top breeders such as yourself have brought to this breed that we all love so dearly. Thank goodness for breeders like you, Tonia.


----------



## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

Hello Tonia- So nice to see you! I'm glad I caught this post. I just know you're not serious about not breeding, but I just want to say how much I appreciate you and your program. Don't dare think it, because if I do decide to get Phoebe a brother or sister, I could not think of a better person to get her\him from. 

Charmaine, I think we'd *all* like to see those pictures of my favorite little Nibbler, while you're at it!!!


----------



## cindysilver (May 15, 2005)

Tonia....
















I just have to say, your darlings are such beautiful examples of the Maltese breed, I would be proud to someday own one of your babies. That day may be far from now, when I actually make enough money







but I KNOW that your Rhapsody babies are WELL WORTH IT and I WANT YOU TO KNOW how glad I am that you are out there, bettering the breed


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> Hello everyone,
> 
> This is Tonia Holibaugh from Rhapsody Maltese.  I have been watching this forum for a week or so and I am very distress by some of the posts.  I decided to join if only for a moment to correct some falacies being tossed around.
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]



Hi Tonia,
I should have worded my post differently. I certainly would prefer to buy a well bred dog with tearstaining than one for $2,500 (or less) from a back yard breeder without staining!!! :new_Eyecrazy: I have always made it clear that I totally favor that people go to the quality breeders and spend the extra money to have a well bred dog and when I wrote my post just wasn't thinking how it came off.







My most sincere apology to you and to Al for that post. It is a post that I certainly wish I hadn't written in the way I did. Again, I apologize for the offence.























My second post did say,
"Most breeders (even the top ones) won't guarantee about luxating patellas down the road with a puppy you purchase. I guess it is just something that is to common in our breed." So I certainly agree with you about no guarantees for such things. Bella was a much older puppy when I got her so she was past the common tear staining age, but she certainly well may have had staining as a young pup. I do not know.

I also gave Al acculades in this thread more than once for being a top notch breeder for 1. Being upfront about Natalie's knees







and 2. for taking her out of his breeding program.







I also said that the picture could well be shadowing not staining. I just thought someone who was interest in her should ask about it ahead of time so they didn't complain after the fact. 

Natalie has one of the most beautiful heads I have ever seen!!! ...and I have gone back to look at her a zillion times this past week drooling over her pretty face. In fact I printed out Natalie's picture two or three nights ago to take it to my elderly/handicapped mom...to make her smile. I always put pictures of the most beautiful ones on her refrigerator as it brightens her day.

PLEASE don't give up breeding and handling! We need the likes of Rhapsody Maltese if we are going to have nice Maltese available to us in the future.












































Again, I publicly apologize to you and to Al for such a thoughtless post.









~carole and bella~


----------



## Malt Lover (Feb 17, 2005)

I have been following this post with great interest and I have a question for Tonia.

I find the breeding hobby very interesting and I was wondering what would a good breeder do when they found out that their puppies have a luxating patella. How would they stop it in the future? Would they not repeat the breeding or simply fix both parents? If they didn't, what would stop this from happening in the next generation?


----------



## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

I too have read this post with great interest...... and haven't found anything paticularly objectionable in it. I think questions have been raised by some of us who don't understand the "ins and outs" of breeding......... I am grateful for the "educated" folks out there who take the time to set us straight and educate us, that's the point of this forum isn't it? I'm not sure how damage can be done when exchanging opinions and learning, I hope that isn't the case. 

When any of us express an incorrect or misguided opinion and someone graciously takes the time to educate us on why that may not necessarily be the "accurate" view then we can, in turn, pass that knowledge on and we are a better community. But if we don't have places like this to air these discussion then how can that ever happen?

I'm sure it's frustrating for quality breeders like Tonia, but damage cannot be done if the dialoge is taken to completion and we all learn from it. So for those of you who know the answers THANK YOU for sticking with us and and educating us and us misguided ones will keep asking questions and expressing the stupid opinions (without apology) so you can set us straight


----------



## Rhapsody Maltese (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Malt Lover_@Nov 20 2005, 03:15 AM
> *I have been following this post with great interest and I have a question for Tonia.
> 
> I find the breeding hobby very interesting and I was wondering what would a good breeder do when they found out that their puppies have a luxating patella.  How would they stop it in the future?  Would they not repeat the breeding or simply fix both parents?  If they didn't, what would stop this from happening in the next generation?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=121350*


[/QUOTE]

The study of "Genetics" is a very incomplete science. We cant stop ALL kinds of known hereditary problems in people, and billions and billions of dollars are spent in medical research. In dogs, there just isnt the money, time or interest to be able to make such a complicated issue that simple. Researchers cannot identify that luxating patellas ARE in fact hereditary let alone be able to advise us on how to remove the health issue from our breeding programs.

"simply fix the parents"? There is nothing simple about "fixing" the parents to try and eliminate health issues. There would be no dogs left to breed. Patellas are just ONE of hundreds of issues that we have to keep in mind when breeding dogs. I, for one, am MUCH more worried about the life threatening ones first and for most.

I have the benefit of having been not only a breeder of a toy breed but I also was a pet groomer for 8 years, worked at a vet for 3 years, as well as being a Professional Handler specializing in toy breeds for the last 10 years. I have seen and cared for many more dogs than I could ever own in 10 lifetimes.

OK ... let me give you an example of what is involved in trying to identify the root of just one health issue .....

Patellas ...
1) Is it genetic or environmental? How do you know if the dog has a luxating patella because it is of genetic orgin? Short of surgically opening the dogs leg up and checking the depth of the groove of the patella, I do not know the answer to this question. You can GUESS base on age of the dog at the point of diagnosis? Or the history of the ancestors? NO ONE can watch their dog every moment. How do you know that the dog didnt injury itself? I have had knee injuries and trust me, the first time I injured my knee it was merely a simple twist. Did an injury make the dog predisposed to a weakness in the joint or was it a genetic predisposition? See the vagueness of this situation?

2) I have seen two dogs both with no luxation be bred together and produce a whole litter of dogs with a luxating patellas. I have seen two dogs both with luxating patellas be bred togther and produce a whole litter with good patellas.

3) Then there is the whole question of age or first diagnosis. At what point do you make the cutoff age? Will I keep no dogs in my breeding program that have evidence of luxation before one year of age? two years of age? three years of age? Ever in their life? If you breed a dog and have offspring and then the parent shows evidence of luxation after the fact do you neuter the parent and the offspring? Even if the parent has produced other puppies with good knees? What about the other puppies? Do you neuter only full brother and sisters? Or all offspring?

4) Grading patellas is done by physical exam. the Othopedic Foundation For Animals has a grading list by which vet grade patellas. It is subjective. SOOOOOO ... this means different vets can exam the same dog and come up with different results. Think having 20 people look at the same object and descibe it and you will have 20 different desciptions. I have had a BOARD CERTIFIED specialist tell me that a dog had good patellas, when I had cared for the dog for 6 months and had its patellas pop EVERYTIME I groomed it. Once I pointed that out ... they further examed the dog ... let it walk around picked it back up and the patella was completely out on one leg.

5) There are sereval environmental situations that can help in the break down of the patellar joint. Cage grate, slick floors, excessive jumping, pacing, etc etc etc

I could go on and on but you get my point. There are so many factors in breeding dogs that you have to pick your battles and set guidelines in your head.

For me the cutoff on patellas is usually 1 year of age, but I have had 2 dogs with an injury before 12 months that had a grade 1 patella and I kept them in my breeding program. I have had dogs show a patella issue at 2 years of age and not kept them in my breeding program. I try to keep family history, the reaction of the specific dog to the luxation (does the luxation bother the dog), and there medical history in mind in making my decisions.

Al made his decision not just based on this one affected dog. He did it based on many issues. If he and his vet had felt that the dog would be destined to surgery, the dog would be much cheaper or he would have the patellas fixed first.

The Othropedic Foundation For Animals is an organization to help breeders in eradicating orthopedic health issues in animals. Hip Displaysia has been indepthly studied and they still do not completely understand the hereditary nature of the issue. Patella certification is a newer study, but so few utilize it. Please visit www.offa.org and see for yourself. There are 65 dogs under Maltese that have had their patellas certified and one that submitted their results even though the results were not normal. 66 dogs over a 10 year span. There are about 6 or 7 breeders who have submitted their results. That is it.

Please test this yourself. Go to an Orthopedic Specialist and have your dog's knees certified. I think you would be surprised by the statisical results.

Tonia


----------



## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rhapsody Maltese_@Nov 20 2005, 09:17 PM
> *Please test this yourself.  Go to an Orthopedic Specialist and have your dog's knees certified.  I think you would be surprised by the statisical results.
> 
> Tonia
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=121626*


[/QUOTE]

Tonia,

We have done just that -- we saw at least 5 (or maybe even more, I can't remember) vets to evaluate our dog's knees. We even took him to an orthopedic surgeon, who eventually did the surgery. The grading of his knees varied an unbelievable amount from "no luxating patellas" all the way through "grade 4"!!! I was horrified that it was seemed so subjective. One of the vets did do x-rays which showed the patellas to be out of place. What convinced us to eventually do the surgery was the limping, which although not present all the time, was present too often. And knowing that it did predispose him to further injuries since we couldn't watch him all the time.

In all honesty, I can't guarantee that it wasn't an injury that resulted in a higher grade of his luxating patellas (or maybe their existence to begin with). We did let him run around as much as he wanted to. He wasn't diagnosed until 1.5 yrs of age. Prior to that, he was seen by 3 different vets (annual exams, shots, etc) and no one even mentioned the patellas. We did NOT even ask his breeder for any help because we didn't have a contract of any sort. We took it as a lesson -- next time we will definitely be asking about the occurence of luxating patellas. In the mean time, we have done all that we can do for him and Miko's knees seem to be doing great after the surgery.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Wow, Tonia....I really appreciate your taking the time to explain so much about luxating patellas. What invaluable information you have shared with us!!! Thank you!!!


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

Thanks, Tonia for posting. It is great to have people with so much knowledge on the website.  I just want to say your furbabies are gorgeous. I love going to your website to look at your furbabies.


----------



## Tanner's Mom (May 27, 2005)

I posted this under the Rescue section, but the Charleston SC paper had an ad today and yesterday for a 4 year old Male and 3 year old female maltese plus a 2 year old Yorkie, phone number is 843-971-3990. I don't know anything about them and have not called myself, but it may be worth checking out.


----------

