# Spay-Leaving the uterus (?)



## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I just got my recent copy of the Whole Dog Journal and of course what they plan on discussing in next month's issue is what I want to read! They said in Europe it's a common practice to take the ovaries but leave the uterus while here in the states we take it all. They plan on discussing the pros and cons of each next month. Does anyone already have any info on this? Haven't they decided in human women, it's better to take just the ovaries instead of a complete hysterectomy? Would the same thinking apply to dogs?

Also, more holistic vets are beginning to think it better to allow a female to have one heat cycle before you spay. I'm going to a vet who is a traditional vet but has taken courses in holistic medicine and acupuncture. She's still thinking it's better to spay before the first heat cycle. I'm curious what others have learned and/or decided on this subject. I'd love to read some info on this if anyone has some links.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

In women I've heard of just taking the uterus and leaving the ovaries (for hormones) but not the other way around. Usually if they take the ovaries there is no reason to keep the uterus. In dogs I would think because of breast cancers both would be advised. I'll be interested to hear what they say.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Well I could totally have it backwards since my copy of the WDJ is at home. :blush: I know when my mom had her hysterectomy, they were planning on doing just a partial but ended up having to do a complete hysterectomy. So I honestly don't remember which they were planning on keeping. :huh: I'm sure you're right in what you just said Brit. I'm really curious as to what the pros and cons are and current thinking is since Callie will be spayed soon.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Crystal, with the little info that I possess, I have read it both ways, better to do it before first heat cycle, and then other opinions on doing it after. 

I've always done it before, and didn't even discuss it with Mia's vet as far as pros and cons, she as actually going by her teeth and of course age. But remember I had Leo at the same time, so I did have a bit of a worry there. I think my vet said, once you get passed the 8 month mark, you get in the "danger" area, and I think she meant, chances of the female going into heat raise greatly. Because of my situation, having "lover" Leo, I just couldn't take the chance.

But with Kara and Tina, both were done before their first heat. Next time at my vets office I will ask her opinion on this.

Very interesting topic and nerve wracking as well, because you want to do the right thing, ya know?


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Ok you might have it backwards. It makes more sense taking the uterus and leaving the ovaries. I really don't understand why they are taking everything here since it is mainly done to avoid babies. In humans, if they take only the uterus there is no need for hormone replacement therapy since you have still the ovaries producing hormones. That does not mean that when you get passed 50 you are not going to enter menopause. If they take both, you are in menopause right away no matter the age.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Just getting home and checked the "What's Ahead" section of the WDJ and it does say that "In Europe, it's more common to leave the uterus intact". Hmmmm....dang. Why can't this article be in THIS months issue?


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

that does not make sense..


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## malts4tina (Oct 28, 2007)

I read that in the WDJ too and thought it might be backwards b/c in June when I attended Dr. Dodds' seminar, the subject of leaving the ovaries was brought up. Someone in the audience asked Dr. Dodds what her opinion is about leaving the ovaries in during a spay, and her response was from what she has read, there is "compelling" evidence this can be beneficial. That is the most she commented on it.

Dr. Dodds also feels it is best to wait for one heat cycle if possible. My holistic vet wants us to wait for Daphne to have one heat cycle before we spay her, and I am going nuts waiting for her to have a cycle. She turned one in August, and she still has not gone into heat. I am going to go the traditional route and remove the uterus and ovaries unless that WDJ article sways me.....

I think I am going to spay her in October if she has not gone into heat yet. She has baby teeth, and I want to get those out sooner than later.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Ok I googled french websites and apparently yes, they take only the ovaries. Since uterus infections and mammary tumors are due to the hormones they seem to think it's only necessary to take the ovaries. 
Now I read on a different website something against spaying and neutering that I have never heard before. Breeders and groomers are not fond of it because they say it changes the coat. They are mostly giving examples of cocker spaniels. They are talking about more matting, color change in the coat : a golden will turn almost white, a black will turn grey, multicolored ones will look washed out. A change too in the quality of the coat : instead smooth and silky, it will be thick and woolly. The coat will grow thicker instead of longer. They say you will need grooming every 6 to 8 weeks instead of every 3 months. 
I don't want to post the 2 pictures they show to illustrate. You can see them with the URL. Scroll down to the pictures. The dog on the left is the 9 year old daddy and the one on the right is the 3 year old daughter. The daddy is intact and the daughter is spayed.
La stérilisation et ses inconvénients
I have no idea how much truth is to this.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I would guess there is some truth to it since we know as our malts mature their coats change a bit. It would make sense if hormones are radically changed with spaying (complete) the coat might change a bit too. I'm not sure that's a great argument for leaving the uterus.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

If a dog is in the show ring then of course coat is a huge issue, but also a dog will still be intact. I guess I don't see a possible coat change as being something that would make me rethink spaying or neutering. I'm only concerned about what's the best for overall health. And Tina, I know you and I have talked about the fact that more and more holistic vets are wanting to wait for them to have one heat cycle before spaying. But that really does scare me too. How many accidental pregnancies can happen if more people start to wait until after the 1st heat cycle? I'm not even sure if I'll know when Callie will first go into heat. I'm sure it will become obvious once she's been in heat for awhile, but will I know right away? So I'm thinking the same may be for others. And then of course, we both share the same concern of not wanting to wait too long to get any retained baby teeth out. So I'll probably do what you are doing and go ahead with the spay before her first heat. I'm really curious as to what this article will say. I'm guessing it's still controversial since it did say they would be discussing the pros and cons of each surgery.


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## malts4tina (Oct 28, 2007)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> If a dog is in the show ring then of course coat is a huge issue, but also a dog will still be intact. I guess I don't see a possible coat change as being something that would make me rethink spaying or neutering. I'm only concerned about what's the best for overall health. And Tina, I know you and I have talked about the fact that more and more holistic vets are wanting to wait for them to have one heat cycle before spaying. But that really does scare me too. How many accidental pregnancies can happen if more people start to wait until after the 1st heat cycle? I'm not even sure if I'll know when Callie will first go into heat. I'm sure it will become obvious once she's been in heat for awhile, but will I know right away? So I'm thinking the same may be for others. And then of course, we both share the same concern of not wanting to wait too long to get any retained baby teeth out. So I'll probably do what you are doing and go ahead with the spay before her first heat. I'm really curious as to what this article will say. I'm guessing it's still controversial since it did say they would be discussing the pros and cons of each surgery.


 
Crystal--You have a good point about the accidental pregnancies that can occur if more people wait. We just have to hope that when a holistic vet recommends this plan, they are considering the pet owner's lifestyle and limitations. 

I am also with you on wondering when and how I will know. I have read and heard from my vet that with a tiny one, I might not even notice the blood. So I am looking for a swollen vulva, but that is even hard to determine!!!!

My big thing now is determining which pain medication is the least harmful for them. I want to give her pain medication, but I want to make sure it is the safest one for these little ones.


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## k9Cracker (Feb 22, 2006)

Some food for thought....

The Long Term Health Risks and Benfits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs
By Laura J Sanborn M.S.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
The following quote was taken from Ms. Sanborns work, linked to above... Pg 3


> "On the positive side, spaying female dogs​
> 
> 
> • if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs​
> ...


This is also taken out of the work linked to above... Pg 9​


> "For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in many (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.​
> The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary."​


A couple other links..
Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk ? Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention
Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete​


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## SugarBob62 (Nov 9, 2009)

Sorry I don't know anything about spaying, I've only had boy animals hahha.

But as for the humans, I guess it would make sense to just take the uterus. However, strange question...but if you take the uterus and leave the ovaries, do you still release an egg each month...and if so where does it go???


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> If a dog is in the show ring then of course coat is a huge issue, but also a dog will still be intact. I guess I don't see a possible coat change as being something that would make me rethink spaying or neutering. I'm only concerned about what's the best for overall health. And Tina, I know you and I have talked about the fact that more and more holistic vets are wanting to wait for them to have one heat cycle before spaying. But that really does scare me too. How many accidental pregnancies can happen if more people start to wait until after the 1st heat cycle? I'm not even sure if I'll know when Callie will first go into heat. I'm sure it will become obvious once she's been in heat for awhile, but will I know right away? So I'm thinking the same may be for others. And then of course, we both share the same concern of not wanting to wait too long to get any retained baby teeth out. So I'll probably do what you are doing and go ahead with the spay before her first heat. I'm really curious as to what this article will say. I'm guessing it's still controversial since it did say they would be discussing the pros and cons of each surgery.



Interesting thread! When i read that it was now being recommended to wait until after a heat, I had the same thought you did - how many more unplanned pregnancies there would be with puppies that are way too young to have puppies. Sad to think about.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I think most unwanted pregnancies happen because of the ignorance of the owner. My late dachshund got pregnant because of my ignorance and because our yard was not fenced. Today, even if my female or male would not be fixed, I don't think the same thing would happen. Because I know better. I would not give them the opportunity to get in contact with another female or male. Of course if I had a female and male living under the same roof they would be fixed.


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## malts4tina (Oct 28, 2007)

k9Cracker said:


> Some food for thought....
> 
> The Long Term Health Risks and Benfits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs
> By Laura J Sanborn M.S.
> ...


 
Thanks for all of the information. I am going to read the links now.


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