# What the vet said today about Science Diet



## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

I asked her a bunch of diet related questions--asked her about Science Diet, specifically, since that is what they plug there. Of course she didn't say anything about sponsors, etc., and I didn't ask. But she did make some good points--first, that dog food is not regulated by the gov't (which I knew but never really stopped to think about) so a brand that is a more obscure name--you are taking their word for what is in the contents and you're assuming that their facilities where they make the food is clean, etc., as there are no gov't standards to have to adhere to, etc. Also, many of the more obscure names don't have scientific studies to back up their claims. She said she knows Science diet has what it says it has in the ingredients since they have toured there, observed the conditions, ingredients, etc. She also said that they have scientific study to back up their claims. And she likes the fact that it's not difficult to find--you can find it anywhere. She said she has raised her dog on SD and would recommend it to anyone.

I never really stopped to think about these things in depth. I know we had a discussion a while back on SD and how the first ingredient was corn, etc. She mentioned that corn is an important carbohydrate in a dog's diet,

She also said that, if she's not mistaken, there are no longer bi-products in SD. She also said that bi-products are not BAD, per say, it depends on what KIND of bi-products you're talking about. Bi-products can mean chicken feet and beaks (really) AND it can also mean bi-products that we as Americans wouldn't necessarily eat like liver or other intestines (although many other countries beside the U.S. do). Anyway, so when you see bi-products on a bag/can you SHOULD avoid it as you don't know what KIND of bi-products they are--unless you know and have toured the manufacturer and know that they are the GOOD kind of bi-products.

Anyway, it was an intelligent conversation worthy of thinking twice about, I thought. It makes me think about the food I'm giving Ollie (Chicken Soup for the Puppy's soul). I'm ASSUMING it has what it says it has in it--but who knows for sure? Who makes the stuff? Where is the stuff made? I never even thought to check that. Is their facility reputable? What do you all think of all this?


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## hohumbarb (Nov 4, 2006)

that was very interesting....I would think any of the big name brands would be safe...my lily doesnt seem to like any of the dog foods and I have been thinking I should make up a nice chicken /rice/and veggie meatloaf for her....she does eat her kibbles if I add something to it... andwill even eat them plain if she gets desperate LOL oh and she is 10 lbs so not exactly starving


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## halfpin21 (Nov 22, 2005)

SD also has a Natural brand out that seem to contain more natural foods than regular SD. I am trying it out on Matrix and he seems to like it. We had to switch from his last brand b/c it made his breath smell really bad.


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

Evidentally dog food is regulated by a branch of the FDA--here's more info: http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2001/301_pet.html
Why the heck is there so much conflicting info on this issue? And I'm no dummy--I know that the big name brands have the $$ to promote whatever it is they are selling--bottom line is that SD DOES have questionable ingredients...and I suppose if all the other foods out there ARE regulated, then we can assume that what the label says is inside is FACT. Why would the vet tell me that?? Ugh......


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

Nothing wrong with SD. My vet uses it and all 3 of mine were on it for a time. Of course you're going to have different opinions here and probably a lot of negative ones on that brand, but do what you feel is right for your dog and not what anyone else thinks you need or should do.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I agree that there is not necessarily anything wrong with it, I just find that there are better foods out there. I would rather K&C have free-range chicken than regular chicken and certainly no chicken by-products. I would rather them not have cheap fillers such as brewers rice in their food. I want them to have probiotics in their food, also. And not "animal fat"... that term can mean any sort of fat such as lard.... who knows. I want to know what type of animal fat ... chicken, or whatever.

Just as with people food... Some people eat tons of junk food and fast food and are fine with it. Or don't care about pesticides on food or whether their preferred fat is lard or olive oil. I am picky about what I eat and therefore I am picky about what K & C eat.... it's just how I am about all food... It is a personal decision regarding what one feels comfortable with. 

I'm not saying that a dog can't live a long life on Science Diet. 

*INGREDIENTS: Science Diet "Adult Chicken and Rice":*
Chicken, Brewers Rice, Rice Flour, Ground Whole Grain Corn, Soybean Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soybean Oil, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Iodized Salt, Vitamin E Supplement, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract. 

In contrast here is Newman's Own. I'm sure there are some that are even better than this but I feel comfortable with this food and as a "bonus", I like that their profits go to charity.

*INGREDIENTS: Newman's Own Adult Dog Formula Kibble*
Chicken, Organic Barley, Organic Rice, Organic Milo, Organic Oats, Organic Ground Flax Seed, Chicken Meal, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Naturally Stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid and Rosemary), Organic Carrots, Organic Potatoes, Calcium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Potassium Chloride, Kelp, Parsley, Dehydrated Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dehydrated Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Dehydrated Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dehydrated Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Dehydrated Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Zinc Amino Acid Complex (Source of Chelated Zinc), Choline Chloride, Iron Amino Acid Complex (Source of Chelated Iron), Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex (Source of Chelated Manganese), Copper Amino Acid Complex (Source of Chelated Copper), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Ascorbate, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Cobalt Proteinate (Source of Chelated Cobalt), Potassium Iodide, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Sodium Selenite.

*
Ingredient Information:
*Bell & Evans® Chicken – The Excellent Chicken® contains no antibiotics and is fed only a 100% natural, all-vegetable diet. Raised in abundant fresh air and provided plenty of clean water, Bell & Evans chickens provide amino acids essential for muscles, hormones, enzymes, antibodies and structural and protective tissues. 

Organic Brown Rice – Grown without pesticides or synthetic fertilizers, these whole grains supply complex carbohydrates for sustained energy and B vitamins and beneficial fiber to maintain a healthy digestive tract and promote normal stools. 

Organic Barley – Grown without pesticides or synthetic fertilizers, these whole grains provide vitamins A, C, E, B1, B2, B6, biotin, complex carbohydrates, tocotrienols (a potent antioxidant) and beneficial fibers. 

Organic Milo – Grown without pesticides or synthetic fertilizers, these whole grains supply complex carbohydrates and beneficial fiber to support digestive function. 

Organic Flax Seed Meal - A rich source of linoleic and omega-3 fatty acids as well as essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals and beneficial fiber for healthy skin and coat condition. 

Ester-C® - A non-acidic form of vitamin C containing metabolites that may enhance the delivery of vitamin C to the whole body to support joint and immune function and neutralize free radicals that damage genes and reduce biological efficiencies.

Organic Oats - Grown without pesticides or synthetic fertilizers, these whole grains supply B-complex vitamins, fiber and complex carbohydrates to help maintain healthy cholesterol and blood sugar levels. 

Organic Carrots - Provide vitamins A and C and beta-carotene, powerful antioxidants that neutralize free radicals and support healthy vision. 

Organic Potatoes - A rich source of fiber and potassium as well as antioxidant vitamins A and C. 

Parsley – Serves as an intestinal calmative and aids in nutrient absorption and elimination of gastric odors leading to “doggie breath”.

Kelp - A good source of essential vitamins and minerals (including iodine). 

Sea Salt – A natural flavoring that is an excellent source of essential minerals. 

Probiotics – Replenishes the naturally occurring beneficial bacteria to improve the nutritional status of the intestinal tract and support immune health.

*What’s not in Newman's Own:*
NO Poultry by-product meal – ground, rendered, cleaned slaughtered poultry carcass parts such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines (and a small amount of feathers). The quality is very inconsistent between batches. 

Note: By product meals are often derived from 4-D meat sources - defined as food animals that have been rejected for human consumption because they were presented to the meat packing plant as “Dead, Dying, Diseased or Disabled”.

NO Antibiotics or steroids - Long-term daily administration may result in a compromised immune system and destruction of the friendly bacteria living in the intestines that aid the digestion of food and assimilation of nutrients. 

NO Chemical additives or artificial preservatives - Chemical antioxidants, such as ethoxyquin or BHA, that were designed to extend the shelf life and reduce fat spoilage (rancidity) of pet foods may cause allergic reactions and affect liver and kidney functions.

NO Wheat, NO corn, NO soy - Wheat and corn may cause allergies in some dogs and cats; processed soy has been incriminated as a cause of bloating in dogs. 

NO Artificial flavors – Flavor enhancers are produced by the enzymatic liquefaction or hydrolysis of animal tissue. Those made with phosphoric acid are particularly appealing to cats because they produce a "tingling" sensation on the tongue. 

NO Artificial Colors and Dyes – Coloring agents provide an artificial "rich and "meaty" look to modify the appearance of highly processed foods and make them more appealing to pet owners.


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

> name='Kallie/Catcher's Mom' date='Jan 2 2007, 11:50 AM' post='312046']
> I agree that there is not necessarily anything wrong with it, I just find that there are better foods out there. I would rather K&C have free-range chicken than regular chicken and certainly no chicken by-products. I would rather them not have cheap fillers such as brewers rice in their food. I want them to have probiotics in their food, also. And not "animal fat"... that term can mean any sort of fat such as lard.... who knows. I want to know what type of animal fat ... chicken, or whatever.
> 
> Just as with people food... Some people eat tons of junk food and fast food and are fine with it. Or don't care about pesticides on food or whether their preferred fat is lard or olive oil. I am picky about what I eat and therefore I am picky about what K & C eat.... it's just how I am about all food... It is a personal decision regarding what one feels comfortable with.
> ...


I honestly don't know why so many vets would recommend this food, but they do. There seems to be some kind of connection between SD and vets, but I can't imagine what that would be? Do they get a kickback from selling the stuff? I would hate to think that vets would be pushing bad food on our pets just for the sake of making a few extra bucks or maybe even a lot of money. I really don't know, do you have any thoughts as to why so many vets recommend this food?


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> I agree that there is not necessarily anything wrong with it, I just find that there are better foods out there. I would rather K&C have free-range chicken than regular chicken and certainly no chicken by-products. I would rather them not have cheap fillers such as brewers rice in their food. I want them to have probiotics in their food, also. And not "animal fat"... that term can mean any sort of fat such as lard.... who knows. I want to know what type of animal fat ... chicken, or whatever.
> 
> Just as with people food... Some people eat tons of junk food and fast food and are fine with it. Or don't care about pesticides on food or whether their preferred fat is lard or olive oil. I am picky about what I eat and therefore I am picky about what K & C eat.... it's just how I am about all food... It is a personal decision regarding what one feels comfortable with.
> 
> ...


Thanks, K/C's Mom for your informative article (more of an article than just a post







). There are a bunch of small companies getting on the band-wagon for "natural" pet foods, and they may or may not be legit or regulated. I try to look at the manufacturer name rather than just the brand name---but they don't always tell you much.

I have learned a lot from the magazine "The Whole Dog Journal". Their articles on food have been very good. They also do a list on the best dry and canned every 6 months or so. As brands sell to other companies they don't always stay the same, so you can't always depend on prior knowledge.

One consisted company who makes high quality food is Nutrapet, makers of Innova, Evo, and California Natural. Another is Dick VanPatten's Natural Balance line. My mind is blank about others at the moment. I know SD is probably not harmful, and sometimes we need to use theirs or other RX diets, but I don't like all that corn as a first ingredient. I believe dogs are carnivores basically.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Science Diet is made by a large well known company. Hills is a subsidiary of Colgate-Palmolive. These pet food subsidiaries are a profitable way to utilize the not-fit-for-human-consumption waste left over from the human food industry.

Science Diet is not the worst food out there, but it's sure not the best. Their diabetic formula w/d contains peanut hulls - FLOOR SWEEPINGS. There is no nutritional value in ground up peanut hulls. And contrary to what your vet says, it does contain chicken by-products.

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Powdered Cellulose, Peanut Hulls, Chicken by-product Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor, Soybean Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Dried Egg Product, Soybean Oil, Corn Gluten Meal, Iron Oxide, Choline Chloride, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Potassium Chloride, preserved with BHT, BHA and Ethoxyquin, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, DL-Methionine, L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, Beta-Carotene. 

You can go to their website and check ingredients in their products. You will find that most contain by-products so your vet is wrong.

http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/index.jsp?...D=1167770925708

AAFCO defines chicken by-product meal as "Chicken By-Product Meal: consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice" so your vet is right about what it contains. http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring04/P...Ingredients.htm

Your vet is also wrong that the pet food industry is unregulated.

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2001/301_pet.html

I recommend everyone read this article from the Animal Protection Institute:

http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1


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## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

> Why would the vet tell me that?? Ugh......[/B]


 

You KNOW why the vet told you that - they are pushing SD, and probably get some type of renumeration from the manufacturer.

I was trying to find the thread, where you can test your food, based on what ingredients it contains, etc. SD scored about average - which means it's fine, but it also means there are better foods out there.



Here's a link where you can compare foods. It's put out by Natura Products, so it will certainly be 'skewed' in their favor, but it does give some good information.

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=comp-wiz


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

personally, i don't think there is anything wrong with SD. my dogs were on it for a while. but they were on the lamb/rice formula.


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

> Science Diet is made by a large well known company. Hills is a subsidiary of Colgate-Palmolive. These pet food subsidiaries are a profitable way to utilize the not-fit-for-human-consumption waste left over from the human food industry.
> 
> Science Diet is not the worst food out there, but it's sure not the best. Their diabetic formula w/d contains peanut hulls - FLOOR SWEEPINGS. There is no nutritional value in ground up peanut hulls. And contrary to what your vet says, it does contain chicken by-products.
> 
> ...



Oh Dear...







All I can say is....I'm glad my babies don't eat that anymore!!! Also had I known I never would have fed them this in the first place, NEVER!


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I went to a breeder's seminar on nutrition sponsored by SD one time many years ago. This was after my nightmare happened. I had 5 maltese and opened a new bag of SD to feed them all (individually). Within the hour all had dropped in seizures and two died. I asked the man from SD at the seminar about this and his reply was "well, SD isn't really made for small dogs". I immediately responded with......don't you think you should state that on your bags of food, to the vets selling SD and in your seminars? He said, that's a good idea. Pfffffffffffffffft to SD. (my opinion)


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

> I went to a breeder's seminar on nutrition sponsored by SD one time many years ago. This was after my nightmare happened. I had 5 maltese and opened a new bag of SD to feed them all (individually). Within the hour all had dropped in seizures and two died. I asked the man from SD at the seminar about this and his reply was "well, SD isn't really made for small dogs". I immediately responded with......don't you think you should state that on your bags of food, to the vets selling SD and in your seminars? He said, that's a good idea. Pfffffffffffffffft to SD. (my opinion)[/B]


Wow, you're kidding me!!

(<<warning--climbing up on my soapbox>>) I was ALREADY fed up with not being able to trust people with hidden agendas and now I have a dog and have to deal with it there too!! For crying out loud--money does make the world go 'round, doesn't it?? It's SO hard to find any kind of professional that isn't driven by some kind of perks. It's just infuriating. Whatever happened to good old fashioned work ethics?? (<<climbing back off soapbox>> thanks for the vent!!)


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=312109
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If it'll make you feel any better, I really think your vet probably means well. I just don't think they all keep up with everything that is going on regarding food. If the food is AAFCO approved then it will sustain a dog's life. That may be all that concerns your vet. 

In comparison, I imagine that not many physicians recommend organic food or green tea or say to stay away from Sweet n Low or Equal. But the PhD. nutritionist I meet with monthly does say this. She reads extensively on food studies, testing, issues, just as a physician reads about diseases, cures, etc. 

I think vets spend their time and energy on curing disease; and therefore, researching food is probably not at the top of their list, unless they have a particular interest in the subject.

I admit that I am too trusting sometimes, but I just cannot imagine the typical vet recommending a bad food just to put money in his/her own pocket. 

I realize I'm making a lot of assumptions here and I really hate to generalize, but this is just my gut feeling... .


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## dolcevita (Aug 3, 2005)

I don't think most vets are deliberately trying to deceive anyone. They're just passing along what they've been taught in vet school. I heard that Hills provides teaching materials to vet schools, or something like that, (can't remember exactly) so their products are being promoted to vet students.

I don't think that there's any inspection of pet foods being done to ensure that the ingredients listed on the package are correct, but that's the only thing we have to go on.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=312179
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I totally agree and many vets do not know as much about a breed as a breeder does. Wouldn't it make sense for the vet not to sell dog foods unless he did indeed check all this out? Sell the prescription stuff but don't shove dog foods at clients that may or may not be suited for a particular breed or even an individual dog unless they've done their homework.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> I don't think most vets are deliberately trying to deceive anyone. They're just passing along what they've been taught in vet school. I heard that Hills provides teaching materials to vet schools, or something like that, (can't remember exactly) so their products are being promoted to vet students.[/B]


Hills provides scholarships, teaches nutrtion classes at vet schools and offers ongoing seminars for vets. More information can be found on their website:

http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/company_in...D=1166590382453


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

Isn't pet food manufacturing regulated by AAFCO (American Assoc. of Feed Companies I think)? And I believe there is one other association that monitors the production of pet food.

While it may be the fox watching the chicken coop because they've arrived at their own standards, there are some standards, such as the temperature dog and cat food must be cooked to, and, what levels meet the agreed upon requirements for healthy pets (example, the need for taurine in cat food).

I recall from years ago working for Lick My Chops, one of the first "premium" pet foods, that human food grade food and grain wasn't necessarily the same that you and I consume. It can be the stuff that's cut off, culled out of our food.

I think there are some things I just don't want to know or question too much, like how the meat I eat is "processed."

Oh sorry! I see AAFCO has been mentioned already. I didn't read everything--my head hurts tonight.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I personally chose not to feed Hills prescription w/d to Lady because Hills still uses BHA, BHT and Ethoxyquin in spite of tests showing its toxicity. I'm certainly not going to feed floor sweepings and poison to a dog who is already immune compromised!


Ethoxyquin
Promoted kidney carcinogenesis. 
Significantly increased incidence of stomach tumors. 
Enhanced bladder carcinogenesis. 

BHA
Enhanced stomach and urinary bladder carcinogenesis. 
Causes squamous-cell carcinomas in stomachs. 
(Cancers of this type are among the most lethal and fastest acting, the swiftest effects being seen among animals with light colored fur.)

BHT
Promoted urinary bladder carcinogenesis. 
Could be a promoter of thyroid carcinogenesis. 
Studies have noted that BHA and other antioxidants, particularly Propyl Gallate and ethoxyquin, showed additional effects in inducing stomach hyperplasia and cytotoxicity.

According to Dr. Wendell Belfield, DVM, practicing veterinarian for some 26 years, both BHA and BHT are known to cause liver and kidney dysfunction and are banned in some European countries. He adds that ethoxyquin is suspected of causing cancer and that propylene glycol (a pet food ingredient closely related to anti-freeze) causes destruction of red blood cells.


Ethoxyquin is listed and identified as a hazardous chemical by OSHA. It has a rating of 3 on a scale of 1 to 6, with 6 being super toxic requiring less than 7 drops to cause death. When manufactured by Monsanto, the containers are marked with the word POISON. Monsanto makes no representations and will not be responsible for damages of any nature whatsoever. The Department of Agriculture lists and controls Ethoxyquin as a pesticide. 
 

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels...logy_of_bha.htm


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## NewMom328 (Apr 15, 2005)

My vet sells science diet also. He only sells the prescription type though. I wouldnt exactly say he pushes it, but if my dog needed a prescription diet for a condition, science diet would be the brand. That being said- is Science Diet the only dog food company that makes prescription diets? 

Also, it is kind of scary to think that maybe the dog foods aren't being truthful on their labels.


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

Just to clarify to eveyone--I hope I didn't give vets a bad rap--that wasn't my intention. It just seems like just about everyone these days has some kind of agenda--doesn't mean that BESIDE that they aren't well educated professionals, etc. And because SOME people out there are ALL ABOUT hidden agenda, it makes you have to check EVERYTHING out youself. I'm not one to sit idly by and let other's do everything for me--I think you know what I mean. Anyway, I'm rambling (what else is new).

And, for what it's worth, sometimes you have to take my rambling with a grain of salt. If you knew me personally--you cannot get more stereotypical New Englander than myself. Not sure if that's good or bad, but I can be brash, opinionated and cranky in general. But I'd give you the shirt off my back in a second if you needed it (as long as I had on proper underwear underneath) LOL!!! But I'm still very lovable anyway, right???







(it's been a long day)


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> My vet sells science diet also. He only sells the prescription type though. I wouldnt exactly say he pushes it, but if my dog needed a prescription diet for a condition, science diet would be the brand. That being said- is Science Diet the only dog food company that makes prescription diets?
> 
> Also, it is kind of scary to think that maybe the dog foods aren't being truthful on their labels.[/B]


Waltham, Purina. IVD and Eukanuba also sell prescription diets.

http://www.prescriptiondiets.com/rc.html


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Science Diet is made by a large well known company. Hills is a subsidiary of Colgate-Palmolive. These pet food subsidiaries are a profitable way to utilize the not-fit-for-human-consumption waste left over from the human food industry.
> 
> Science Diet is not the worst food out there, but it's sure not the best. Their diabetic formula w/d contains peanut hulls - FLOOR SWEEPINGS. There is no nutritional value in ground up peanut hulls. And contrary to what your vet says, it does contain chicken by-products.
> 
> ...


I am stunned and disgusted to see (above) that they are still putting BHA and BHT and especially ethoxyquin in the Prescription WD formula. Rosebud, my first Maltese, was on WD for many years because it was the only thing that didn't cause her to have loose mucousy stools. I am particularly disgusted because Hill's, the maker of SD, has none or very little competition for its prescription diets, so I guess they don't have a strong motivation to improve the quality.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Whole Foods Market has a dog food called "Organix Canine Formula". It's made of organic free range chicken, brown rice & flax. No corn, no wheat, no by-products. This is a dry food. You can find out about it at : http://www.castorpolluxpet.com/


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

> Whole Foods Market has a dog food called "Organix Canine Formula". It's made of organic free range chicken, brown rice & flax. No corn, no wheat, no by-products. This is a dry food. You can find out about it at : http://www.castorpolluxpet.com/[/B]


Hey, I LOVE your photo!

Good to know about the Whole Foods brand--I love Whole Foods. We all do here out in the NE--we also jokingly call it "Whole Paycheck" lol. You do get good quality for what you pay for, though.

I'm going to keep Ollie on the Chicken Soup for the Puppy's Soul. I sort of told myself that if it seemed like he was doing well on it as he grew, then I'd stick with it. (The breeder raises her dogs on it). Anyway, I just worry about it being sort of obscure--there's only one specialty store that sells it near me and not a whole lot of sources on the web--plus I don't want to pay for shipping on dog food! And I worry that one day I'll go to the store to buy some more and it'll be GONE. I know, not the end of the world, but I still think about it.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

Thanks all for the useful information. I personally think Vets should not sell dog food or prescription drugs.
There is a monetary incentative when the vet sells it. Of course they push the products they sell. I agree that vets are probably not selling food or drugs that they believe to be bad for animals, but they do not have the time to research all of the products out there so of course, they are going to sell you what they carry. 

Whether it is a human doctor or a vet, I think you need to do your own research. Generally, I need a doctor only to confirm what I already know. The internet is a wonderful thing.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

A lot of people also don't know that euthanized animals, usually from shelters, can end up in pet food. The drugs used to euthanize the animals can survive the rendering process and end up in the food.

According to a study conducted in December 2000, by the Food And Drug Administration Center for Veterinary Medicine, the FDA found traces of phenobarbital in the following pet foods:

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/dfchart.htm


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## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

*It just boggles my mind concerning a good dry food...my head hurts now!! All I want is a good food to give my boys and I am more confused now. I thing that BACK TO BASICS is OK at least by the chart, but WHO KNOWS for sure! I am soooo confused now.







*

*Marie & the boys*


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

That's why some of us cook for our dogs. Frosty at his advanced age and compromised liver, heart and kidneys gets both dry premium natural and some canned natural and a helping of home cooked. I would be glad to share my home recipe if you are interested. Because he is so picky and won't eat the same thing every day, I have to use both commerical and home cooked to keep him eating. Even eating 3 times a day he is loosing weight.







At least when you cook it, you know what's in it.


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## JessicaMO620 (Sep 18, 2006)

Everyone has their price.. some peoples are just higher than others I guess... Its scary though. I would like to go into a vet and find that it doesent promote this kind of food or that. Around it here the majority promotes SD. Im not saying this about sd... chester was on it for a while and it seemed "okay" but, to me, it would seem that an unhealthy food leads to an unhealthy dog, which leads to going to the vet more often which to the vet means $$$. Im not saying thats the case with most vets, im sure most are very honest and enjoy helping animals, but, im sure there are a few...


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

well, i had an irish setter who was on SD lamb/rice _most_ of her life... and the only time she went to the vet was for her vaccinations. she had a magnificent coat and gorgeous body. i can tell you the food didn't do her any harm.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> well, i had an irish setter who was on SD lamb/rice _most_ of her life... and the only time she went to the vet was for her vaccinations. she had a magnificent coat and gorgeous body. i can tell you the food didn't do her any harm.[/B]



We had a Siamese cat growing up that lived to be almost 20, and he only ate SD...canned and dry. The only thing I can ever remember being wrong with him was needing teeth cleanings.


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## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

Ok, this may be long....
I have been working at an animal hospital for a few years now, and we do indeed sell SD. Prescription mostly. We also will order any other kind of food that the client wants, like royal canin.
I have to defend the vets out there. I know that the 4 that I work with are ABSOLUTELY NOT just trying to make a buck. This goes for the prescription drugs as well. A vet shouldn't sell them??? I think they absolutely should have MEDICATION at an animal hospital, available to sick patients.
I think some of the the reasons most vets sell SD is because it is convenient, available anywhere, and there are many many kinds of Rx food available, and they do work. Also, I have not, so far, had any classes on nutrition for dogs. (i am majoring in veterinary science) and I don't know if this is something they go in depth about in vet school. 
Also, Hills comes to us about 4 times a year and does a little luncheon seminar about their products....so I'm sure they go to the other vets as well.
As for being paid for "pushing it".... NO WAY! My boss will not advertise for them at all. For example, we got a black mat for our scale with the Hills logo on it, and he makes us put it upside down so no one sees it. 
I believe it is up to us to find a food that we are comfortable with. Once we find that food, we can ask our vets about it. There are so many foods out there, how can we expect the vets to know all about them all? I know that at least one of my drs knows a lot about the different foods, and he will give advice and info if the clients asks.
I don't mean to start more of an argument, I am just giving a different p.o.v.









Oh, also, SD does make a small breed specific food, but I never heard of the regular stuff being bad for small breeds....


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that vets are corrupt and somehow being bribed to sell Hills products. As you say. most vets can order any of the prescription diets. My sister manages a vet office that carries Hills products, but prefers Waltham's kidney diet for her dog so she has them order it for her.

I researched the choices in diabetic diets and personally feel Waltham makes a better product - no BHT, BDA or Ethoxyquin, no peanut shells, no by products.

http://www.royalcanin.us/documents/CanineDiabetic.pdf

I agree with you 100% that it is up to us to do our research and find the prescription diet we are most comfortable with. We should ask our vet to order it if need be and not just go with what is conveniently on the shelves at our vet office, what ever brand that may be.

I think the real question here was not really about prescription diets anyway as we are limited in our choices, but the best non-prescription food to feed. That's where I think you can find products that are far superior to Science Diet.

Back in the day, we didn't have the choices we have now in pet foods. The food we fed our pets came right off the grocery store shelf and most of us had pets growing up that lived long healthy lives. We have learned much since then about nutrition both for ourselves and for our pets, though. Since healthier foods are available now, why not give our pets the best we can afford?


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## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

Ladysmom,
I must have been a little unclear. I was talking about all food, not just prescription food. I just meant to mention that we mostly recommend hills for prescription food.
I also am not saying that I think anyone has to use SD, or that vets should or should not recommend it, I was only trying to shed some light on why the vets may be recommending it. 
I agree that you should feed your pet the food you think is best. Go for it!! I for one, home cook for both my dogs.


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## arko (Dec 4, 2006)

camfan: thanks for the post. 

SD really is pushed extremely hard in hong kong as well. 

it is simply EVERYWHERE


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## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

> A lot of people also don't know that euthanized animals, usually from shelters, can end up in pet food. The drugs used to euthanize the animals can survive the rendering process and end up in the food.
> 
> According to a study conducted in December 2000, by the Food And Drug Administration Center for Veterinary Medicine, the FDA found traces of phenobarbital in the following pet foods:
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/dfchart.htm[/B]


Euthanized animals from shelters can end up in pet food? I did not know that. Where can I find more information on that?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Ann Martin's book, _Food Pets Die For_, first accused the pet food industry of rendering euthanized animals from shelters. Here's an excerpt:

http://www.earthisland.org/eijournal/fall9...l97petfood.html

The FDA later did studies and confirmed traces of phenobarbital, used in euthanizing cats and dogs, were found in certain dog foods. I posted the link to the 2000 study above. In a follow up study, the FDA said no dog or cat dna was found in their samples, but experts have argued that dna breaks down during the rendering process so the study isn't valid.

Although I don't think it's ever been proven conclusively one way or another, the argument has always been what other explanation could there be for phenobarbital ending up in our pet's food? If you google it, you will find a lot of articles on the subject. Here's a sample:

A few years ago, Baltimore reporter Van Smith visited a rendering plant in his city and found that the large vats that collect and filter the animals prior to cooking contained a vast array of animals including dead dogs, cats, raccoons, opossums, deer, foxes, snakes, a baby circus elephant and the remains of a police department horse. This one rendering plant alone processes 1,824 dead animals every month. Every year this one plant turns 150 million pounds of decaying, diseased and drug filled flesh and kitchen grease into 80 million pounds of meat and bone meal, tallow and yellow grease. This nutritionally dead, often toxic material provides the base for most pet foods and is found in a vast array of products used by humans as well.  

http://marimaykennels.bizland.com/ffrpetfoodarticles.htm

Here are some other links:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-02.htm

http://www.earthisland.org/eijournal/new_a...mp;journalID=58

http://www.earthisland.org/eijournal/new_a...mp;journalID=58

You can also get Martin's book from amazon.com.


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

> I don't think anyone is suggesting that vets are corrupt and somehow being bribed to sell Hills products. As you say. most vets can order any of the prescription diets. My sister manages a vet office that carries Hills products, but prefers Waltham's kidney diet for her dog so she has them order it for her.
> 
> I researched the choices in diabetic diets and personally feel Waltham makes a better product - no BHT, BDA or Ethoxyquin, no peanut shells, no by products.
> 
> http://www.royalcanin.us/documents/CanineDiabetic.pdf[/B]


Yup, just talking and sharing what we have experienced, learned. I have to agree about the Waltham/Royal Canin diets. Especially the diabetic formula and the kidney formula for cats which are the ones I have experience with. The diabetic food was instrumental in my cat Copper loosing a significant amount of weight and eventually taking him off insulin (under the doctor's supervision). The kidney foods were it seems palatable to the cats, and getting a kidney cat to eat is half the battle in caring for them.

There is not a great deal of money to be made in the selling of pet food anywhere unless it is sold in extremely high volumes as in the large chain stores--they get deeper discounts on the wholesale price and make more profit. Pet food even wholesale isn't cheap.


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