# Big vs smaller breeders; things to consider.



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I am posting this thread to assist those looking for puppies from reputable show breeders. Some breeders are "high volume" with a large number of dogs, some are small home breeders with 10 or fewer, and some are in the middle. So, which does one choose? IMO, I would choose a smaller breeder. Why? The breeder will have more knowledge on the temperament, and health of each of the dogs and puppies. They will also be better socialized with humans. Since the breeder has fewer dogs, they will have better food and better care. The breeder's records should be in order, and the breeder should be more available. Can you get a healthy puppy or dog from a "high volume" breeder? Yes, but there is a higher risk of getting a dog who is not well-socialized with people, who may not have had all their shots, or may not have all their teeth, or who may have a health issue. This may be a sign that the breeder has too many dogs. As a breeder, it can be difficult to control the number of animals while hoping to improve the breed and produce the next show dog. A few breeders become so highly successful and popular, that they end up having more dogs, puppies, and customers than they can handle, and then the problems begin and that breeding program gets out of control. Too many dogs can ruin even the best breeding programs. Buying from a popular, big breeder does not guarantee you a "perfect" or "better" dog. There isn't one! If you are considering a "popular, high-volume show breeder", talk to as many people as you can who have purchased that breeder's dogs, ask to see the breeder's dogs/and or kennels in person, if at all possible. If you get excuses, do not get your questions answered, if they want money before or without seeing the dog, walk away. Bigger is not necessarily better.


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Working with a small breeder has its benefits. Working with a larger breeder also has its benefits. I disagree with most of the statements above. The number of dogs does not correlate to the quality of food or veterinary care. A breeder with 4 dogs and a full-time job outside of the home may be no more available than a breeder with 14 dogs who does not work outside of the home. A small breeder may not have puppies any better socialized than a larger breeder. It all depends on *how much* time is spent with the puppies but matters far less *who* is spending the time with them. Shots, teeth, health issues??? This may be your opinion, it is not mine, and I'd be curious what statistics you are basing your opinion on. Too many dogs can ruin a lot of things, not just a breeding program. What defines "too many"? I agree with you that bigger is not necessarily better ... but it's not necessarily worse, either.


----------



## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

MaryH said:


> Working with a small breeder has its benefits. Working with a larger breeder also has its benefits. I disagree with most of the statements above. The number of dogs does not correlate to the quality of food or veterinary care. A breeder with 4 dogs and a full-time job outside of the home may be no more available than a breeder with 14 dogs who does not work outside of the home. A small breeder may not have puppies any better socialized than a larger breeder. It all depends on *how much* time is spent with the puppies but matters far less *who* is spending the time with them. Shots, teeth, health issues??? This may be your opinion, it is not mine, and I'd be curious what statistics you are basing your opinion on. Too many dogs can ruin a lot of things, not just a breeding program. What defines "too many"? I agree with you that bigger is not necessarily better ... but it's not necessarily worse, either.


 :goodpost: Mary -- what you said is right on.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

If we wanted to pick breeders depending on how many dogs they had, how would we do that? I can't go personally visit every possible breeder--actually probably any possible breeder considering where I live. You may be able to guess at some because you know they are new......but is that a good thing? I don't know. I'm thinking it still takes a lot of research to find a puppy that is the ONE.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I totally agree with Mary's post.


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

MaryH said:


> Working with a small breeder has its benefits. Working with a larger breeder also has its benefits. I disagree with most of the statements above. The number of dogs does not correlate to the quality of food or veterinary care. A breeder with 4 dogs and a full-time job outside of the home may be no more available than a breeder with 14 dogs who does not work outside of the home. A small breeder may not have puppies any better socialized than a larger breeder. It all depends on *how much* time is spent with the puppies but matters far less *who* is spending the time with them. Shots, teeth, health issues??? This may be your opinion, it is not mine, and I'd be curious what statistics you are basing your opinion on. Too many dogs can ruin a lot of things, not just a breeding program. What defines "too many"? I agree with you that bigger is not necessarily better ... but it's not necessarily worse, either.


I don't think you really read my post but instead read into my post what you wanted to. :yucky:


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Actually, April, I read your post several times before I responded. I can appreciate that you are trying to help people find a healthy happy puppy but, honestly, I think you are going about it the wrong way. You just came out with a post that is overly broad, all about numbers, and you are making assumptions (especially about food and vet care).

Honestly, though, I think your motivation is to send people away from Bonnie, more than it is about helping them do their research. There are people on this forum who have had a bad experience with Bonnie. They should be able to say they've had a bad experience. No one should attack them for posting about their bad experience. If someone else has had a good experience with Bonnie they should be able to post that, too. What shouldn't happen are the unfounded personal attacks. From what I've read of your posts, you don't think people should buy a puppy from Bonnie. I'm basing this observation (1) on the thread you started stating that she is on the USDA Breeder List and (2) on this thread about big vs. small breeders. Unfortunately, not all of your statements on either post are fact-based and could be misleading to others. If you don't like Bonnie and wouldn't buy a dog from here, that's okay and it's okay for you to post that. Why can't you just say "Based on personal interactions and/or information I've received from people I trust, I personally would not buy a puppy from Bonnie." Much better to be open, honest, and self-assured in your beliefs than to attempt to achieve the same outcome by making broad based statements that are not fact based such as "breeders with a lot of dogs feed them crap and don't give them vet care." Those are my words, not yours, but that's how the unsuspecting public is reading what you wrote and that's just not true.


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Furbaby's Mommie said:


> If we wanted to pick breeders depending on how many dogs they had, how would we do that? I can't go personally visit every possible breeder--actually probably any possible breeder considering where I live. You may be able to guess at some because you know they are new......but is that a good thing? I don't know. I'm thinking it still takes a lot of research to find a puppy that is the ONE.[/QUOTE
> 
> It does take a lot of research and there are breeders who have been breeding for many years who keep their numbers low because they choose to. There are also those who keep their numbers high because they choose to.


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

MaryH said:


> Actually, April, I read your post several times before I responded. I can appreciate that you are trying to help people find a healthy happy puppy but, honestly, I think you are going about it the wrong way. You just came out with a post that is overly broad, all about numbers, and you are making assumptions (especially about food and vet care).
> 
> Honestly, though, I think your motivation is to send people away from Bonnie, more than it is about helping them do their research. There are people on this forum who have had a bad experience with Bonnie. They should be able to say they've had a bad experience. No one should attack them for posting about their bad experience. If someone else has had a good experience with Bonnie they should be able to post that, too. What shouldn't happen are the unfounded personal attacks. From what I've read of your posts, you don't think people should buy a puppy from Bonnie. I'm basing this observation (1) on the thread you started stating that she is on the USDA Breeder List and (2) on this thread about big vs. small breeders. Unfortunately, not all of your statements on either post are fact-based and could be misleading to others. If you don't like Bonnie and wouldn't buy a dog from here, that's okay and it's okay for you to post that. Why can't you just say "Based on personal interactions and/or information I've received from people I trust, I personally would not buy a puppy from Bonnie." Much better to be open, honest, and self-assured in your beliefs than to attempt to achieve the same outcome by making broad based statements that are not fact based such as "breeders with a lot of dogs feed them crap and don't give them vet care." Those are my words, not yours, but that's how the unsuspecting public is reading what you wrote and that's just not true.


 Mary, I will PM you.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

aprilb said:


> I don't think you really read my post but instead read into my post what you wanted to. :yucky:


I find this :yucky: emoticon really unnecessary and rude toward one of our most helpful and knowledgeable contributors.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

MaryH said:


> Working with a small breeder has its benefits. Working with a larger breeder also has its benefits. I disagree with most of the statements above. The number of dogs does not correlate to the quality of food or veterinary care. A breeder with 4 dogs and a full-time job outside of the home may be no more available than a breeder with 14 dogs who does not work outside of the home. A small breeder may not have puppies any better socialized than a larger breeder. It all depends on *how much* time is spent with the puppies but matters far less *who* is spending the time with them. Shots, teeth, health issues??? This may be your opinion, it is not mine, and I'd be curious what statistics you are basing your opinion on. Too many dogs can ruin a lot of things, not just a breeding program. What defines "too many"? I agree with you that bigger is not necessarily better ... but it's not necessarily worse, either.





aprilb said:


> Furbaby's Mommie said:
> 
> 
> > If we wanted to pick breeders depending on how many dogs they had, how would we do that? I can't go personally visit every possible breeder--actually probably any possible breeder considering where I live. You may be able to guess at some because you know they are new......but is that a good thing? I don't know. I'm thinking it still takes a lot of research to find a puppy that is the ONE.[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I actually think this is a very good question and a worthy discussion. It is unfortunate that people will assume it is about any one breeder bc it does not have to be.

I personally think April makes some wonderful points about what a smaller breeder can offer. I do think, there may be some assumptions in her post that would not bear out with all bigger breeders. In the end though, this discussion brings me back to a point I feel like I spend a lot of time repeating. Everyone is individual and not every breeder is the right one for every person. We all need to do our research and come to the conclusions of what is most important to us when we get a dog.


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> I actually think this is a very good question and a worthy discussion. It is unfortunate that people will assume it is about any one breeder bc it does not have to be.
> 
> I personally think April makes some wonderful points about what a smaller breeder can offer. I do think, there may be some assumptions in her post that would not bear out with all bigger breeders. In the end though, this discussion brings me back to a point I feel like I spend a lot of time repeating. Everyone is individual and not every breeder is the right one for every person. We all need to do our research and come to the conclusions of what is most important to us when we get a dog.


 
:goodpost:


----------



## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

CloudClan said:


> I actually think this is a very good question and a worthy discussion. It is unfortunate that people will assume it is about any one breeder bc it does not have to be.
> 
> I personally think April makes some wonderful points about what a smaller breeder can offer. I do think, there may be some assumptions in her post that would not bear out with all bigger breeders. In the end though, this discussion brings me back to a point I feel like I spend a lot of time repeating. Everyone is individual and not every breeder is the right one for every person. We all need to do our research and come to the conclusions of what is most important to us when we get a dog.


:goodpost:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

aprilb said:


> I am posting this thread to assist those looking for puppies from reputable show breeders. Some breeders are "high volume" with a large number of dogs, some are small home breeders with 10 or fewer, and some are in the middle. So, which does one choose? IMO, I would choose a smaller breeder. Why? The breeder will have more knowledge on the temperament, and health of each of the dogs and puppies. They will also be better socialized with humans. Since the breeder has fewer dogs, they will have better food and better care. The breeder's records should be in order, and the breeder should be more available. Can you get a healthy puppy or dog from a "high volume" breeder? Yes, but there is a higher risk of getting a dog who is not well-socialized with people, who may not have had all their shots, or may not have all their teeth, or who may have a health issue. This may be a sign that the breeder has too many dogs. As a breeder, it can be difficult to control the number of animals while hoping to improve the breed and produce the next show dog. A few breeders become so highly successful and popular, that they end up having more dogs, puppies, and customers than they can handle, and then the problems begin and that breeding program gets out of control. Too many dogs can ruin even the best breeding programs. Buying from a popular, big breeder does not guarantee you a "perfect" or "better" dog. There isn't one! If you are considering a "popular, high-volume show breeder", talk to as many people as you can who have purchased that breeder's dogs, ask to see the breeder's dogs/and or kennels in person, if at all possible. If you get excuses, do not get your questions answered, if they want money before or without seeing the dog, walk away. Bigger is not necessarily better.


I totally agree with Mary's statements. So based on your post, it might be dangerous to buy from Marcris, Divine, Tajon, Rhapsody, and Chrisman because all of them have larger breeding programs than others? Does that sound right to you?


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

princessre said:


> I totally agree with Mary's statements. So based on your post, it might be dangerous to buy from Marcris, Divine, Tajon, Rhapsody, and Chrisman because all of them have larger breeding programs than others? Does that sound right to you?


Why is this turning so personal? Why are individual breeders even being brought into it?


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Why is this turning so personal? Why are individual breeders even being brought into it?


It hasn't turned personal with me. I'm asking April whether she agrees with the logical extension of the thesis she has formed and presented.


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

princessre said:


> It hasn't turned personal with me. I'm asking April whether she agrees with the logical extension of the thesis she has formed and presented.


IMO, using the word 'dangerous' when describing some very successful breeders in not in the best interest of this discussion.


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Carina, I agree that there are small scale breeders who have a lot to offer. It drives me nuts that so many people give consideration to only those breeders with "label recognition." The label doesn't always guarantee high quality just as much as lack of "label recognition" doesn't automatically mean poor quality. But as breeders and buyers we each have individual goals and what works for me might not work for someone else. When I bought my first "real" Maltese I sought out only small, local breeders because I am a touchy, feely kind of person and wanted to meet the breeder and the puppy. I've gotten other dogs since then not from small breeders but from breeders who I got to know before getting a dog. I've not been disappointed with either choice and felt that the dogs from both environments were well socialized and well cared for up until the time that I got them. Small breeders don't deserve to be overlooked for lack of name recognition and larger breeders don't deserve to be frowned upon based on the number, real or assumed, of dogs they have. There's a lot more to this than numbers and name.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

bellaratamaltese said:


> IMO, using the word 'dangerous' when describing some very successful breeders in not in the best interest of this discussion.


The word "dangerous" reflects April's thesis that going with a bigger breeder might be *"higher risk,*" that it is "*difficult to control"* the number of animals in a program, that the breeding programs might get *"out of control*." These words from April are in red text:

Yes, but there is a higher risk of getting a dog who is not well-socialized with people, who may not have had all their shots, or may not have all their teeth, or who may have a health issue. This may be a sign that the breeder has too many dogs. As a breeder, it can be difficult to control the number of animals while hoping to improve the breed and produce the next show dog. A few breeders become so highly successful and popular, that they end up having more dogs, puppies, and customers than they can handle, and then the problems begin and that breeding program gets out of control. Too many dogs can ruin even the best breeding programs. Buying from a popular, big breeder does not guarantee you a "perfect" or "better" dog. There isn't one! If you are considering a "popular, high-volume show breeder", talk to as many people as you can who have purchased that breeder's dogs, ask to see the breeder's dogs/and or kennels in person, if at all possible. If you get excuses, do not get your questions answered, if they want money before or without seeing the dog, walk away. Bigger is not necessarily better.


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

princessre said:


> The word "dangerous" reflects April's thesis that going with a bigger breeder might be *"higher risk,*" that it is "*difficult to control"* the number of animals in a program, that the breeding programs might get *"out of control*." These words from April are in red text:
> 
> Yes, but there is a higher risk of getting a dog who is not well-socialized with people, who may not have had all their shots, or may not have all their teeth, or who may have a health issue. This may be a sign that the breeder has too many dogs. As a breeder, it can be difficult to control the number of animals while hoping to improve the breed and produce the next show dog. A few breeders become so highly successful and popular, that they end up having more dogs, puppies, and customers than they can handle, and then the problems begin and that breeding program gets out of control. Too many dogs can ruin even the best breeding programs. Buying from a popular, big breeder does not guarantee you a "perfect" or "better" dog. There isn't one! If you are considering a "popular, high-volume show breeder", talk to as many people as you can who have purchased that breeder's dogs, ask to see the breeder's dogs/and or kennels in person, if at all possible. If you get excuses, do not get your questions answered, if they want money before or without seeing the dog, walk away. Bigger is not necessarily better.


Yes but it was you who brought breeder names into this discussion and used the word 'dangerous', that is what I found not in the best interest of this thread. The original post was only generalized - not individual breeders.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Yes but it was you who brought breeder names into this discussion and used the word 'dangerous', that is what I found not in the best interest of this thread.


LOL! I asked April a rhetorical question, paraphrasing "higher risk," and "out of control" as "dangerous." That is exactly what she is intimating, and in no way my viewpoint whatsoever. I'm asking her whether she thinks it is dangerous to get from bigger breeders when those breeders have had a profound impact on the Maltese in our breed history to illustrate how illoigcally far-reaching her thesis is.


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I was the person who first introduced a name into this thread. There was no ill will intended. I said what I felt, out in the open, for all to read, so as to avoid innuendo, assumption or misrepresentation.


----------



## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Goodness, April was expressing HER opinion and I thought she brought up some good points to consider when looking for a puppy. She didn't name names in this thread.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

And apparently it is now against the rules to use breeder names in breeder discussions.

Mary, I applaud your being even-handed and patient as heck in addressing these types of threads. I can always feel that education is your number one goal, which cannot be appreciated enough.


----------



## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I was at my customer’s house, well really she’s becoming a really good friend, the other day who breeds Mi-Ki's. Not an AKC recognized breed I know but not a hybrid. They’ve been breeding Mi-Ki to Mi-Ki for some time now. I went for 2 reasons. One, her hubby volunteered to make a double gated entry for the store and I wanted to see what he had done at their house. And 2, because there were a few rumors here in my area that perhaps she was a hoarder or a mill. So I JUMPED at the opportunity to see for myself her home. She has always told me how many dogs she has and she is trying to place a few she has retired or is planning on retiring. She is at home full time and she has 11 adult dogs at this time. 4 of which she is wanting to re-home and will not be breeding them anymore. I wanted to see myself, firsthand what her home was like, what her set up was like, and how many dogs she truly had. Thankfully, she gave me a full tour. Of course I was asking tons of questions about how she did this or that so it would lead me into other rooms. I was also out on her property (she lives in town so she's on a small city lot) because I said Jett and Callie had to potty outside. So I was able to see every square inch of her property as well as every square inch of her home. She truly has 11 adult dogs. All have free roaming privileges in her home unless there is a female in heat. They are treated like family members and she knows their individual barks without seeing who is barking. She knows each one’s own personality and little quirks. She crates a few at night but most sleep with her at night. And I called her as I was leaving the store to see if it was ok if I stopped in that evening on my way home. So she didn't have much time to move dogs to another location. I really was trying to be like a detective and catch her unprepared if this speculation was true. Her home was neat and clean and did not smell at all. She has potty patches & litter boxes for her dogs as well as a doggy door going into a safe area outside. I was complimenting her on her nice home and said that I honestly expected it to be a bit ‘doggy’. lol She told me it is CONSTANT work to keep things up. As she was sharing with me her schedule for keeping everything and every fluff cleaned and groomed, scheduled outings, vet appts, etc... I was exhausted and decided maybe becoming a hobby show breeder wasn't as much fun as I thought it might be. lol And it was pretty crazy with that many dogs running around. Fun crazy, but crazy. I can't imagine how someone would be able to keep things running smoothly, keep up on little idiosyncrasies of each dog, who is due for what, how old so and so is, etc with much more then that number without help. My friend has said being at home full time, 11 is pretty much her limit to be able to give each one the time and attention they need as well as outings for socialization. She has to write down who she took where to make sure each one gets to go on some outings on a regular basis. She’s extremely organized and has admitted with that many dogs; she can’t trust her memory so she’s become a schedule freak.

 If I were looking for a breeder, these are some of the things I would like to know. Where are the dogs kept? Are they in the actual home where the breeder and family do the majority of their living or are they in a separate facility, whether that is the basement, another portion of the house, or a special room. What is the set up like? What is the schedule for keeping the dog area clean & sanitized? What is the schedule of routine things such as nail clips, baths, teeth brushing, combing & brushing, etc. Do they do routine well visits on their breeding dogs and do they do dentals as recommended? Are all the dogs allowed free access to the house at all times? I can’t imagine that someone who has over 20 dogs can allow all of them free access to the house at all times, just as I can’t imagine someone who works would allow free access while they are gone. So where are they kept when not having free access to the house? What type of schedule is set up so it is ensured one is not overlooked and not let out for play or exercise time? How do they ensure each dog is given individual attention? What is the schedule for outings for socialization as well as positive experiences in a car? I feel this is important to the breeding dogs just as much as it is for puppies to ensure a rich and stimulating life, as well as to ensure a smooth transition to their new home when they are retired. If the number of dogs is a higher number, do they have hired help, family support or friend support? If the dogs are kept in a separate facility or room, are they brought into the living area of the home on a regularly scheduled basis so they can become accustomed to the sound of normal household noises such as vacuum cleaners, pots & pans clanking, people coming to the door, etc? I would also like to know if the breeder seems to know each little quirky part of not only a puppy’s personality, but also the adults in their breeding program. This would tell me how much individual time that dog or puppy is getting with the actual breeder. I would like to see complete & up to date medical papers that are free from things like another dogs name crossed out and the one you are looking at name penned in. I want to make sure that paperwork is readily available and not something the breeder ‘can’t seem to locate at the moment, but will get to you at a later time. Again, this is telling me how organized the breeder is and if they truly can handle the number of dogs she has. I don’t think this is an unfair way of determining this since the breeder should be aware of why you are there in the first place. I would also like to know when a breeder retires their dogs. How do they go about finding a new home/family for their retirees? How many litters do they allow each female to have? If a female has had a c-section, how many times do they breed her knowing she will have to have a c-section? Do they sell with a spay/neuter contract? What is their health guarantee? Do they have in their contract that the dog must come back to them if for whatever reason the new owner feels it is not working out? What type of testing do they do on those in their breeding program to check for things such as liver shunt & MVD? Do they test their puppies before they go to their new home? 

 These are the things that are important to me because I want to support breeders who not only produce beautiful, healthy, sound in temperament puppies, but also care for those in their breeding program just as much as their puppies.

 If I were asking someone who has purchased a puppy or retiree from a breeder I’m thinking of, I would ask what their experience was like, if they were happy with the report they had with the breeder in that she was able to answer questions, help with any issues, and was their description of the puppy or retiree correct…did they really know the dog in other words. Again, you do need to take into account that any dog, whether a puppy but especially if it is an older dog, will not show their true personality in their new home for several months. If the person I was asking about their experience with a particular breeder were in their home, did they see ALL of their dogs? Especially for those with a higher number of dogs that most likely can’t allow all of them free access at one time, did they actually see all the dogs and how they were kept when not given free access to the home? I understand being careful about where new puppies are kept and they may be in a separate room. Maybe this is asking too much, but I think it would be ok to just see into the room they are in by them opening the door, but totally understandable about not wanting just anyone walking into that room. I guess my feeling is that yes, I understand about wanting some privacy, but when selling a home, you allow people free access to look in all the rooms and even closets. I don’t see why this should be too much to ask when purchasing a puppy or retiree to see where all the dogs are kept…even if it is a bedroom. (Not their closets. lol) UNLESS this would cause too much stress to a new mother. I’m sure there will be some breeders here on this forum that will have some insights as to whether this is asking too much or not. And maybe it is. But it is ideally what I would like.


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

princessre said:


> And apparently it is now against the rules to use breeder names in breeder discussions.
> 
> Mary, I applaud your being even-handed and patient as heck in addressing these types of threads. I can always feel that education is your number one goal, which cannot be appreciated enough.


_Of course_ it's not against the rules to name breeders on this forum. But the original intent of this post was not to name names and point fingers. That's all I am trying to say.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

And my intent was to name names, so that she could see that her thesis may not be so correct.


----------



## beckinwolf (Sep 2, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I was at my customer’s house, well really she’s becoming a really good friend, the other day who breeds Mi-Ki's. Not an AKC recognized breed I know but not a hybrid. They’ve been breeding Mi-Ki to Mi-Ki for some time now. I went for 2 reasons. One, her hubby volunteered to make a double gated entry for the store and I wanted to see what he had done at their house. And 2, because there were a few rumors here in my area that perhaps she was a hoarder or a mill. So I JUMPED at the opportunity to see for myself her home. She has always told me how many dogs she has and she is trying to place a few she has retired or is planning on retiring. She is at home full time and she has 11 adult dogs at this time. 4 of which she is wanting to re-home and will not be breeding them anymore. I wanted to see myself, firsthand what her home was like, what her set up was like, and how many dogs she truly had. Thankfully, she gave me a full tour. Of course I was asking tons of questions about how she did this or that so it would lead me into other rooms. I was also out on her property (she lives in town so she's on a small city lot) because I said Jett and Callie had to potty outside. So I was able to see every square inch of her property as well as every square inch of her home. She truly has 11 adult dogs. All have free roaming privileges in her home unless there is a female in heat. They are treated like family members and she knows their individual barks without seeing who is barking. She knows each one’s own personality and little quirks. She crates a few at night but most sleep with her at night. And I called her as I was leaving the store to see if it was ok if I stopped in that evening on my way home. So she didn't have much time to move dogs to another location. I really was trying to be like a detective and catch her unprepared if this speculation was true. Her home was neat and clean and did not smell at all. She has potty patches & litter boxes for her dogs as well as a doggy door going into a safe area outside. I was complimenting her on her nice home and said that I honestly expected it to be a bit ‘doggy’. lol She told me it is CONSTANT work to keep things up. As she was sharing with me her schedule for keeping everything and every fluff cleaned and groomed, scheduled outings, vet appts, etc... I was exhausted and decided maybe becoming a hobby show breeder wasn't as much fun as I thought it might be. lol And it was pretty crazy with that many dogs running around. Fun crazy, but crazy. I can't imagine how someone would be able to keep things running smoothly, keep up on little idiosyncrasies of each dog, who is due for what, how old so and so is, etc with much more then that number without help. My friend has said being at home full time, 11 is pretty much her limit to be able to give each one the time and attention they need as well as outings for socialization. She has to write down who she took where to make sure each one gets to go on some outings on a regular basis. She’s extremely organized and has admitted with that many dogs; she can’t trust her memory so she’s become a schedule freak.
> 
> If I were looking for a breeder, these are some of the things I would like to know. Where are the dogs kept? Are they in the actual home where the breeder and family do the majority of their living or are they in a separate facility, whether that is the basement, another portion of the house, or a special room. What is the set up like? What is the schedule for keeping the dog area clean & sanitized? What is the schedule of routine things such as nail clips, baths, teeth brushing, combing & brushing, etc. Do they do routine well visits on their breeding dogs and do they do dentals as recommended? Are all the dogs allowed free access to the house at all times? I can’t imagine that someone who has over 20 dogs can allow all of them free access to the house at all times, just as I can’t imagine someone who works would allow free access while they are gone. So where are they kept when not having free access to the house? What type of schedule is set up so it is ensured one is not overlooked and not let out for play or exercise time? How do they ensure each dog is given individual attention? What is the schedule for outings for socialization as well as positive experiences in a car? I feel this is important to the breeding dogs just as much as it is for puppies to ensure a rich and stimulating life, as well as to ensure a smooth transition to their new home when they are retired. If the number of dogs is a higher number, do they have hired help, family support or friend support? If the dogs are kept in a separate facility or room, are they brought into the living area of the home on a regularly scheduled basis so they can become accustomed to the sound of normal household noises such as vacuum cleaners, pots & pans clanking, people coming to the door, etc? I would also like to know if the breeder seems to know each little quirky part of not only a puppy’s personality, but also the adults in their breeding program. This would tell me how much individual time that dog or puppy is getting with the actual breeder. I would like to see complete & up to date medical papers that are free from things like another dogs name crossed out and the one you are looking at name penned in. I want to make sure that paperwork is readily available and not something the breeder ‘can’t seem to locate at the moment, but will get to you at a later time. Again, this is telling me how organized the breeder is and if they truly can handle the number of dogs she has. I don’t think this is an unfair way of determining this since the breeder should be aware of why you are there in the first place. I would also like to know when a breeder retires their dogs. How do they go about finding a new home/family for their retirees? How many litters do they allow each female to have? If a female has had a c-section, how many times do they breed her knowing she will have to have a c-section? Do they sell with a spay/neuter contract? What is their health guarantee? Do they have in their contract that the dog must come back to them if for whatever reason the new owner feels it is not working out? What type of testing do they do on those in their breeding program to check for things such as liver shunt & MVD? Do they test their puppies before they go to their new home?
> 
> ...


:goodpost: :aktion033:


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I personally do not see any reason for names to be brought into this thread. Not because there is a rule about not using kennel names, but because it opens the door to accusations that are not first-hand and may be unfair to the people behind those names. 

We all know the big names in Maltese and that many of them have larger operations, many of us have worked with them. If we want to share our personal experience with a larger breeder as an example, that is one thing. But using the names as if they are are brand and have no relationship to the individuals serves no purpose. 

April's discussion was about numbers. She raised some valuable points about what she thinks a breeder with smaller numbers has to offer. I agree with a lot of what she has to say about smaller scale breeding operations and I hope people will remember that there are some advantages to working with smaller kennels. 

However, as has been pointed out, there may be some assumptions about numbers that are perhaps unfair. Too many for one breeders is not too many for another. Crystal makes some excellent points in her post about the types of things that can tell you how well "managed" any kennel is, big or small.


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I was at my customer’s house, well really she’s becoming a really good friend, the other day who breeds Mi-Ki's. Not an AKC recognized breed I know but not a hybrid. They’ve been breeding Mi-Ki to Mi-Ki for some time now. I went for 2 reasons. One, her hubby volunteered to make a double gated entry for the store and I wanted to see what he had done at their house. And 2, because there were a few rumors here in my area that perhaps she was a hoarder or a mill. So I JUMPED at the opportunity to see for myself her home. She has always told me how many dogs she has and she is trying to place a few she has retired or is planning on retiring. She is at home full time and she has 11 adult dogs at this time. 4 of which she is wanting to re-home and will not be breeding them anymore. I wanted to see myself, firsthand what her home was like, what her set up was like, and how many dogs she truly had. Thankfully, she gave me a full tour. Of course I was asking tons of questions about how she did this or that so it would lead me into other rooms. I was also out on her property (she lives in town so she's on a small city lot) because I said Jett and Callie had to potty outside. So I was able to see every square inch of her property as well as every square inch of her home. She truly has 11 adult dogs. All have free roaming privileges in her home unless there is a female in heat. They are treated like family members and she knows their individual barks without seeing who is barking. She knows each one’s own personality and little quirks. She crates a few at night but most sleep with her at night. And I called her as I was leaving the store to see if it was ok if I stopped in that evening on my way home. So she didn't have much time to move dogs to another location. I really was trying to be like a detective and catch her unprepared if this speculation was true. Her home was neat and clean and did not smell at all. She has potty patches & litter boxes for her dogs as well as a doggy door going into a safe area outside. I was complimenting her on her nice home and said that I honestly expected it to be a bit ‘doggy’. lol She told me it is CONSTANT work to keep things up. As she was sharing with me her schedule for keeping everything and every fluff cleaned and groomed, scheduled outings, vet appts, etc... I was exhausted and decided maybe becoming a hobby show breeder wasn't as much fun as I thought it might be. lol And it was pretty crazy with that many dogs running around. Fun crazy, but crazy. I can't imagine how someone would be able to keep things running smoothly, keep up on little idiosyncrasies of each dog, who is due for what, how old so and so is, etc with much more then that number without help. My friend has said being at home full time, 11 is pretty much her limit to be able to give each one the time and attention they need as well as outings for socialization. She has to write down who she took where to make sure each one gets to go on some outings on a regular basis. She’s extremely organized and has admitted with that many dogs; she can’t trust her memory so she’s become a schedule freak.
> 
> If I were looking for a breeder, these are some of the things I would like to know. Where are the dogs kept? Are they in the actual home where the breeder and family do the majority of their living or are they in a separate facility, whether that is the basement, another portion of the house, or a special room. What is the set up like? What is the schedule for keeping the dog area clean & sanitized? What is the schedule of routine things such as nail clips, baths, teeth brushing, combing & brushing, etc. Do they do routine well visits on their breeding dogs and do they do dentals as recommended? Are all the dogs allowed free access to the house at all times? I can’t imagine that someone who has over 20 dogs can allow all of them free access to the house at all times, just as I can’t imagine someone who works would allow free access while they are gone. So where are they kept when not having free access to the house? What type of schedule is set up so it is ensured one is not overlooked and not let out for play or exercise time? How do they ensure each dog is given individual attention? What is the schedule for outings for socialization as well as positive experiences in a car? I feel this is important to the breeding dogs just as much as it is for puppies to ensure a rich and stimulating life, as well as to ensure a smooth transition to their new home when they are retired. If the number of dogs is a higher number, do they have hired help, family support or friend support? If the dogs are kept in a separate facility or room, are they brought into the living area of the home on a regularly scheduled basis so they can become accustomed to the sound of normal household noises such as vacuum cleaners, pots & pans clanking, people coming to the door, etc? I would also like to know if the breeder seems to know each little quirky part of not only a puppy’s personality, but also the adults in their breeding program. This would tell me how much individual time that dog or puppy is getting with the actual breeder. I would like to see complete & up to date medical papers that are free from things like another dogs name crossed out and the one you are looking at name penned in. I want to make sure that paperwork is readily available and not something the breeder ‘can’t seem to locate at the moment, but will get to you at a later time. Again, this is telling me how organized the breeder is and if they truly can handle the number of dogs she has. I don’t think this is an unfair way of determining this since the breeder should be aware of why you are there in the first place. I would also like to know when a breeder retires their dogs. How do they go about finding a new home/family for their retirees? How many litters do they allow each female to have? If a female has had a c-section, how many times do they breed her knowing she will have to have a c-section? Do they sell with a spay/neuter contract? What is their health guarantee? Do they have in their contract that the dog must come back to them if for whatever reason the new owner feels it is not working out? What type of testing do they do on those in their breeding program to check for things such as liver shunt & MVD? Do they test their puppies before they go to their new home?
> 
> ...


 


:goodpost:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Well, I disagree so I used names. We can differ in opinion as to what would make a discussion productive. These breeders are not brand names to me. I have personally dealt and talked with each of them in looking for not one, but two puppies.


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

princessre said:


> I find this :yucky: emoticon really unnecessary and rude toward one of our most helpful and knowledgeable contributors.


It means "yuck" and described how I was feseling and I did not find your "knowledgeable contributer" to be helpful. But your Malts are precious!:wub:


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

princessre said:


> It hasn't turned personal with me. I'm asking April whether she agrees with the logical extension of the thesis she has formed and presented.


You're so funny!:HistericalSmiley: There is no "thesis" my dear, because I am not trying to prove anything, just giving some general guidelines. I do not think I am being unfair to big breeders, either. I use words like "may" because I know there are some reputable big breeders that are great, and these concerns would not apply to them. If I was biased against big breeders, I would use words like "will". I'm just saying pay closer attention to the numbers of dogs big breeders have, their living conditions, and talk to people who have gotten their dogs. Don't think that because the breeder is famous and popular that.. you will get your perfect dream-dog. You still need to do your homework. Btw, I have considered dogs from Chrisman and Divine, too!:blush:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Working with a small breeder has its benefits. Working with a larger breeder also has its benefits. I disagree with most of the statements above. The number of dogs does not correlate to the quality of food or veterinary care. A breeder with 4 dogs and a full-time job outside of the home may be no more available than a breeder with 14 dogs who does not work outside of the home. A small breeder may not have puppies any better socialized than a larger breeder. It all depends on *how much* time is spent with the puppies but matters far less *who* is spending the time with them. Shots, teeth, health issues??? This may be your opinion, it is not mine, and I'd be curious what statistics you are basing your opinion on. Too many dogs can ruin a lot of things, not just a breeding program. What defines "too many"? I agree with you that bigger is not necessarily better ... but it's not necessarily worse, either.


Please refer to Mary's informative post above. :thumbsup:


----------



## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> *April's discussion was about numbers.* QUOTE]
> 
> I agree. Names is not relevant in this particular thread, as the OP did not open the door to that. OP was talking about numbers, she never mentioned names. Although it can be inferred by a few that OP's points insinuate Bonnie, that is not despositive, as Bonnie is not the only "large scale" breeder, as other have mentioned. Lets not commingle the two aspects of the discussion. It might be more productive.
> 
> Imagine this-- a first time lurker on here, opening this thread, seeing OP's post...would have not been able to infer Bonnie's Angels at all from this post alone...until her name was mentioned by another poster.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Small breeders don't deserve to be overlooked for lack of name recognition and larger breeders don't deserve to be frowned upon based on the number, real or assumed, of dogs they have.


This is the main point.:thumbsup:


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

And a first time lurker also might have been led to believe that any breeder who has more and a few dogs feeds them inferior quality food and does not provide them with proper veterinary care. There is always a risk that information posted on the internet is not accurate or even worthwhile.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

MaryH said:


> And a first time lurker also might have been led to believe that any breeder who has more and a few dogs feeds them inferior quality food and does not provide them with proper veterinary care. There is always a risk that information posted on the internet is not accurate or even worthwhile.


:aktion033::aktion033::aktion033:


----------



## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

MaryH said:


> And a first time lurker also might have been led to believe that any breeder who has more and a few dogs feeds them inferior quality food and does not provide them with proper veterinary care. There is always a risk that information posted on the internet is not accurate or even worthwhile.


I agree. That is why everyone, including lurkers, should do more research into *both *types of breeders, large and small. OP did not open the door to naming ANY breeder, large or small, so for any of us to start assuming any names, might be presumptuous, and turning this thread into something personal, which it is not meant to be. 

On a "individualized point of view", I have a malt from I guess what OP would consider a "large scale" breeder, and this post does not offend me at all. She is not, in my opinion, targeting any specific breeder, she is just stating a generalized point of view.


----------



## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

What it comes down to is knowledge and personal choice. 
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
I'm not being the least bit disparaging when I suggest we all listen to Dave Mason, on The Midnight Special:


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

KAG said:


> What it comes down to is knowledge and personal choice.
> xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
> I'm not being the least bit disparaging when I suggest we all listen to Dave Mason, on The Midnight Special:
> 
> YouTube - Dave Mason-We Just Disagree


 Amen! Kerry, you are hilarious, girl!:HistericalSmiley: Thank you for your marvelous ENDING to this thread! :chili::chili::chili:


----------



## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I was a breeder of top winning Lhasas for longer than many of our members have been alive. LOL  Yep -- I'm getting OLD.

IMHO, like people, each breeder is unique and should never be lumped together. I agree that we should educate the public about BYBs and Puppymills and the effect they have on breeding and on how Puppymills keep their fluffs, and that we should encourage people to purchase from reputable breeders or to get a rescue.

And I would encourage ANYONE that is thinking about purchasing a dog to thoroughly research the breeder (or to get a rescue). But, in no way, should, imo, all breeders that have x number of dogs (either large numbers or small numbers) be LUMPED together.

Although a particular breeder may well be breeding healthy, beautiful well maintained fluffs -- that breeder may not be the right breeder for the buyer and may not have a fluff that would be perfect for that specific home. I don't care whether you're considered to be big, little or in between, each breeder is unique just as each fluff is unique.

Someone that is purchasing from a breeder should do a lot of research -- not simply read things on a public forum. A fluff is a lifetime committment. I agree that it is good to ask others that have fluffs from a particular breeder about the experience with that breeder -- but please don't listen to hearsay from those that don't or that may have never even talked to or met the breeder in question.

We have a newbie on SM that contacted me via pm about a breeder that I recommended in another thread. This isn't a breeder that I have a dog from, but is someone that I've known for years. I provided a lot of information to the newbie about this breeder from my personal knowledge and experience. This same newbie and I continued to pm about other breeders and puppies and she asked me about another breeder that was a little closer to her in location. I honestly told her that I don't know this breeder personally, nor have I been to her home or seen any of her fluffs in person, but that doesn't mean that she's not a good breeder. The newbie asked me candidly if the breeder was a byb and I was just afraid to say. I assured her that I knew that the breeder was newer to showing, but was an active show breeder and, to my knowledge, was not a byb, but that I didn't have any personal, first hand knowledge of the breeder and so I couldn't help with info. After she described the 2 puppies that were being offered (1 from each breeder), I gave a list of reasons that she may want to go with each breeder including that the 1 breeder (who I don't know) is much closer in location. After much research, this newbie has made her decision. I know which breeder she went with, but I also know that she would probably have been very happy with either of the 2 puppies and that both breeders were reputable. I encouraged her to contact a couple of people that I knew had fluffs from the 2nd breeder (the one I didn't know). One would probably be considered a breeder with larger #s of fluffs and one would probably be considered to have a small #.

Again, this highlights the depth of research that should be done when purchasing a fluff as well as the fact that there are many good breeders to choose from, and that the buyer is the one that needs to feel comfortable with his/her breeder and the fluff in question. Like people, reputable breeders come in all shapes and sizes.

I'm sad that we feel we need to generalize about something that is so important.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Lacie's Mom said:


> I was a breeder of top winning Lhasas for longer than many of our members have been alive.
> 
> *I'm sad that we feel we need to generalize about something that is so important*.


:aktion033::aktion033::aktion033: Great post!


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

godiva goddess said:


> I agree. That is why everyone, including lurkers, should do more research into *both *types of breeders, large and small. OP did not open the door to naming ANY breeder, large or small, so for any of us to start assuming any names, might be presumptuous, and turning this thread into something personal, which it is not meant to be.
> 
> On a "individualized point of view", I have a malt from I guess what OP would consider a "large scale" breeder, and this post does not offend me at all. She is not, in my opinion, targeting any specific breeder, she is just stating a generalized point of view.


Another aspect of naming the names is the presumption that just because it is a name we know, they must have more dogs than the names we don't. Just because some have bigger names, have gotten to be well known because they have had great success in the show ring, it does not necessarily equate to having more dogs. 

Again, it is about doing your research learning and what you can from the individuals involved. Ask the questions, but don't just ask about numbers, ask about the dogs, find out how well they "know" them. That will tell you a lot about how much attention their dogs are getting.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

You don't have to presuppose too much about names and numbers when you actively look for a puppy for over a year. Lots of breeders will tell you, email you, and send you pictures every time they have a litter.


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

CloudClan said:


> Another aspect of naming the names is the presumption that just because it is a name we know, they must have more dogs than the names we don't. Just because some have bigger names, have gotten to be well known because they have had great success in the show ring, it does not necessarily equate to having more dogs.
> 
> Again, it is about doing your research learning and what you can from the individuals involved. Ask the questions, but don't just ask about numbers, ask about the dogs, find out how well they "know" them. That will tell you a lot about how much attention their dogs are getting.


Great post!

If someone wants to discuss a breeder - per SM rules, this is allowed, as long as it's first hand information and not just speculating.

Throwing names out in this thread and lumping them together was not a good idea and wasn't 'first hand' information. Using the term 'dangerous' while listing these breeders was very unfair and on this, we can agree to disagree, I really don't care. :thumbsup:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

"Higher risk," "out of control," "hard to control" were all terms "thrown out" by the OP. "Dangerous" was a term used to mirror back her implication, and used in a rhetorical way and not in seriousness to demonstrate the overreaching generalization the OP was making.

I dare say a buyer who is looking 24/7 for a puppy for over a year might have intimate first-hand knowledge and experience with most breeders in the country, so there are no presuppositions here.


----------



## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

:goodpost:


Lacie's Mom said:


> I was a breeder of top winning Lhasas for longer than many of our members have been alive. LOL  Yep -- I'm getting OLD.
> 
> IMHO, like people, each breeder is unique and should never be lumped together. I agree that we should educate the public about BYBs and Puppymills and the effect they have on breeding and on how Puppymills keep their fluffs, and that we should encourage people to purchase from reputable breeders or to get a rescue.
> 
> ...


----------



## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Using the term 'dangerous' while listing these breeders was very unfair and on this, we can agree to disagree, I really don't care. :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

What do you mean, Stacy, when you say you really don't care?
xoxoxoxoxo


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

KAG said:


> Using the term 'dangerous' while listing these breeders was very unfair and on this, we can agree to disagree, I really don't care. :thumbsup:


What do you mean, Stacy, when you say you really don't care?
xoxoxoxoxo[/QUOTE]

I didn't care if she disagreed with me. I still don't. :thumbsup:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

bellaratamaltese said:


> What do you mean, Stacy, when you say you really don't care?
> xoxoxoxoxo


I didn't care if she disagreed with me. I still don't. :thumbsup:[/QUOTE]

I don't mind if we disagree. But only one of us is trying to play moderator, and it ain't me.


----------



## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Thank you, Stacy. I understand now. 
xoxoxoxoxo

Did you ladies happen to enjoy my choice of song? 
xoxoxoxoxoxoxo


----------



## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

KAG said:


> Thank you, Stacy. I understand now.
> xoxoxoxoxo
> 
> Did you ladies happen to enjoy my choice of song?
> xoxoxoxoxoxoxo



I listened to the song, it made reading more pleasant.

sometimes I get to the end of some threads and i have trouble remembering what the original post was. IMHO.


----------



## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

princessre said:


> I don't mind if we disagree. But only one of us is trying to play moderator, and it ain't me.


what is going on w/ the meaness? we are all here bc we love Malts, and hope to make some new friends. If we disagree, thats perfectly ok. no need to let a discussion over breeders ruin friendships. Not worth it, IMO. You and Stacy are both important long time members of SM. We are all here for the same reasons. :grouphug::grouphug:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

godiva goddess said:


> what is going on w/ the meaness? we are all here bc we love Malts, and hope to make some new friends. If we disagree, thats perfectly ok. no need to let a discussion over breeders ruin friendships. Not worth it, IMO. You and Stacy are both important long time members of SM. We are all here for the same reasons. :grouphug::grouphug:


Oh, geez, no meanness from me!


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

princessre said:


> I didn't care if she disagreed with me. I still don't. :thumbsup:


I don't mind if we disagree. But only one of us is trying to play moderator, and it ain't me.[/QUOTE]



godiva goddess said:


> what is going on w/ the meaness? we are all here bc we love Malts, and hope to make some new friends. If we disagree, thats perfectly ok. no need to let a discussion over breeders ruin friendships. Not worth it, IMO. You and Stacy are both important long time members of SM. We are all here for the same reasons. :grouphug::grouphug:





princessre said:


> Oh, geez, no meanness from me!


 
Are you serious?!!!!!! :blink:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Great post!
> 
> If someone wants to discuss a breeder - per SM rules, this is allowed, as long as it's first hand information and not just speculating.
> 
> Throwing names out in this thread and lumping them together was not a good idea and wasn't 'first hand' information. Using the term 'dangerous' while listing these breeders was very unfair and on this, we can agree to disagree, I really don't care. :thumbsup:


Stacy said "it was not a good idea" for me to use breeder names in this thread. She also said that my naming breeder names was not "first hand" information. She also said my use of the word dangerous was "very unfair" despite me explaining that it was used as a rhetorical advice as a way of paraphrasing someone else. How is this "mean", and not just factually recounting that she was trying to dictate the terms of this discussion? I may disagree with someone, but I don't tell others what is a good idea to bring into a discussion and what is not. That is called attempted censorship. That's up to everyone to decide as long as they don't break the rules. No, I won't back off just because someone else wants to dictate how and what I should discuss. Sorry, but I do have alot of first-hand experience with these breeders...if you disagree with me, that's one thing. But it is playing moderator to tell someone else what they should and should not bring up when no rules are broken and reasonable people will differ as to what is most productive for a discussion. :thumbsup:


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

princessre said:


> Stacy said "it was not a good idea" for me to use breeder names in this thread. She also said that my naming breeder names was not "first hand" information. She also said my use of the word dangerous was "very unfair" despite me explaining that it was used as a rhetorical advice as a way of paraphrasing someone else. How is this "mean", and not just factually recounting that she was trying to dictate the terms of this discussion? I may disagree with someone, but I don't tell others what is a good idea to bring into a discussion and what is not. That is called attempted censorship. That's up to everyone to decide as long as they don't break the rules. No, I won't back off just because someone else wants to dictate how and what I should discuss. Sorry, but I do have alot of first-hand experience with these breeders...if you disagree with me, that's one thing. But it is playing moderator to tell someone else what they should and should not bring up when no rules are broken and reasonable people will differ as to what is most productive for a discussion. :thumbsup:


 

OMG...your a piece of work. :shocked:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

mysugarbears said:


> OMG...your a piece of work. :shocked:


If you want to know what's mean, THAT is mean.


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Getting back to "numbers" and "names", I've been thinking about this thread a lot today, some of the points raised, and some of the assumptions made. 

About the numbers - I still haven't moved off my belief that numbers do not automatically equal anything. Two dogs could be too many for someone while twenty-two might not be too many for someone else. What bothers me is that some people feel they have the right to decide what the number should be for someone other than themself and, further, that they have the right to know how many dogs another person has and that they have the right to inspect those dogs and their living quarters. We each have the right to buy or not buy a dog from a particular breeder but we don't have the right to decide what that breeder should be doing and how they should be doing it. As pet buyers I wonder how we would feel if the tables were turned and a breeder said to us "When would be a good time for me to inspect your home, meet your children, look at their school report cards and records from their doctor visits, peek into your refrigerator to see what sorts of foods you feed your family, etc." All of those things might give a breeder more insight into how their puppy will be raised but would I agree to that? I don't think so.

And about the names (or labels or brands or whatever) - I got into dogs before I had a computer. There was no opportunity to go to the internet and instantaneously pull up a bunch of information, fact or fiction, about any breeder or their dogs. I learned about breeders and dogs from going to local dog shows, befriending dog people and attending national specialty shows. Back then it didn't take long to figure out who some of the big name breeders were. They were the ones whose dogs I saw in the ring at the specialty shows. I also got to know the smaller local breeders because I saw their dogs from time to time in the ring, too, at local shows. When I saw that certain breeders were mentioned earlier in this thread I didn't immediately think "OMG, they are being singled out as having lots of dogs." I thought "OMG, every one of these breeders has produced some awesome dogs."

If I had limited my search based on numbers and names I wouldn't be sharing my life with the *ABSOLUTELY AWESOME *dogs that I've been blessed with.


----------



## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Beautifully said, Mary. Brava!!
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo


----------



## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

KAG said:


> Beautifully said, Mary. Brava!!
> xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo



Indeed !!!!


----------



## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

i think that sounds correct , i know nothing about anything compared to all of the knowledgable ppl here , but i do know that everyone is entitled to their opinion n to choose what they feel is right . whether that breeder has one dog or 100 dogs .. with that said i would really like it if we can all get along :wub:


MaryH said:


> Getting back to "numbers" and "names", I've been thinking about this thread a lot today, some of the points raised, and some of the assumptions made.
> 
> About the numbers - I still haven't moved off my belief that numbers do not automatically equal anything. Two dogs could be too many for someone while twenty-two might not be too many for someone else. What bothers me is that some people feel they have the right to decide what the number should be for someone other than themself and, further, that they have the right to know how many dogs another person has and that they have the right to inspect those dogs and their living quarters. We each have the right to buy or not buy a dog from a particular breeder but we don't have the right to decide what that breeder should be doing and how they should be doing it. As pet buyers I wonder how we would feel if the tables were turned and a breeder said to us "When would be a good time for me to inspect your home, meet your children, look at their school report cards and records from their doctor visits, peek into your refrigerator to see what sorts of foods you feed your family, etc." All of those things might give a breeder more insight into how their puppy will be raised but would I agree to that? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Getting back to "numbers" and "names", I've been thinking about this thread a lot today, some of the points raised, and some of the assumptions made.
> 
> About the numbers - I still haven't moved off my belief that numbers do not automatically equal anything. *Two dogs could be too many for someone while twenty-two might not be too many for someone else. What bothers me is that some people feel they have the right to decide what the number should be for someone other than themself* and, further, that they have the right to know how many dogs another person has and that they have the right to inspect those dogs and their living quarters. We each have the right to buy or not buy a dog from a particular breeder but we don't have the right to decide what that breeder should be doing and how they should be doing it. As pet buyers I wonder how we would feel if the tables were turned and a breeder said to us "When would be a good time for me to inspect your home, meet your children, look at their school report cards and records from their doctor visits, peek into your refrigerator to see what sorts of foods you feed your family, etc." All of those things might give a breeder more insight into how their puppy will be raised but would I agree to that? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


:ThankYou::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

Another wonderfully well-reasoned post from Mary! What you've said above which I bolded were the exact points I was trying to make- that making these generalizations about numbers might make one exclude from consideration breeders who have produced some of the most important champions in Maltese history. 

If you have had a great experience buying from a small breeder, then good on you. But that doesn't mean someone else can't be perfectly happy or even happier buying from a larger breeder. What you're doing is buying an individual dog from an individual breeder. Hence, generalizations don't really apply.


----------



## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

MaryH said:


> Getting back to "numbers" and "names", I've been thinking about this thread a lot today, some of the points raised, and some of the assumptions made.
> 
> About the numbers - I still haven't moved off my belief that numbers do not automatically equal anything. Two dogs could be too many for someone while twenty-two might not be too many for someone else. What bothers me is that some people feel they have the right to decide what the number should be for someone other than themself and, further, that they have the right to know how many dogs another person has and that they have the right to inspect those dogs and their living quarters. We each have the right to buy or not buy a dog from a particular breeder but we don't have the right to decide what that breeder should be doing and how they should be doing it. As pet buyers I wonder how we would feel if the tables were turned and a breeder said to us "When would be a good time for me to inspect your home, meet your children, look at their school report cards and records from their doctor visits, peek into your refrigerator to see what sorts of foods you feed your family, etc." All of those things might give a breeder more insight into how their puppy will be raised but would I agree to that? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


Rescues do home inspections prior to approving an adoption. They also ask for references, actually call and talk to your references, and speak with your vet. Before I was able to adopt Jett, someone came into my home. I was ok with that. 

Back when I first wanted a Maltese, not one breeder got back to me. I'm assuming it's because they could tell by my email that I was a total novice to the breed and would have rather placed a puppy with someone who had more knowledge with the breed because responses have been far different now that I have more knowledge. And we have been told over and over again that reputable breeders are interviewing us as much as we are them. Is this another SM myth? Or will a breeder allow just anyone to purchase one of their puppies or retirees without getting an idea if that person will be a good home and family to one of their Malts?

Without some sort of check and balance system, how on earth do we help those poor babies in a situation such as Holliebelle? I also agree that what may be too many for one may not be too many for another. Since there is no magic #, then the only way to tell if the dogs are getting the individual time and attention they need and deserve is by asking questions and seeing their set up. Again, we have been told here on SM, even by you, that you should go and see a breeders set up prior to purchasing a puppy. Is this another SM myth?


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

princessre said:


> Stacy said "it was not a good idea" for me to use breeder names in this thread. She also said that my naming breeder names was not "first hand" information. She also said my use of the word dangerous was "very unfair" despite me explaining that it was used as a rhetorical advice as a way of paraphrasing someone else. How is this "mean", and not just factually recounting that she was trying to dictate the terms of this discussion? I may disagree with someone, but I don't tell others what is a good idea to bring into a discussion and what is not. That is called attempted censorship. That's up to everyone to decide as long as they don't break the rules. No, I won't back off just because someone else wants to dictate how and what I should discuss. Sorry, but I do have alot of first-hand experience with these breeders...if you disagree with me, that's one thing. But it is playing moderator to tell someone else what they should and should not bring up when no rules are broken and reasonable people will differ as to what is most productive for a discussion. :thumbsup:





Crystal&Zoe said:


> Rescues do home inspections prior to approving an adoption. They also ask for references, actually call and talk to your references, and speak with your vet. Before I was able to adopt Jett, someone came into my home. I was ok with that.
> 
> Back when I first wanted a Maltese, not one breeder got back to me. I'm assuming it's because they could tell by my email that I was a total novice to the breed and would have rather placed a puppy with someone who had more knowledge with the breed because responses have been far different now that I have more knowledge. *And we have been told over and over again that reputable breeders are interviewing us as much as we are them. Is this another SM myth? Or will a breeder allow just anyone to purchase one of their puppies or retirees without getting an idea if that person will be a good home and family to one of their Malts?*
> 
> Without some sort of check and balance system, how on earth do we help those poor babies in a situation such as Holliebelle? I also agree that what may be too many for one may not be too many for another. Since there is no magic #, then the only way to tell if the dogs are getting the individual time and attention they need and deserve is by asking questions and seeing their set up. Again, we have been told here on SM, even by you, that you should go and see a breeders set up prior to purchasing a puppy. Is this another SM myth?


 

From my personal experience when i was looking for a retired dog one breeder did not call the vet or the references i provided and the other breeder called the vets and spoke with them and also my references...a retired dog was available for me from both breeders.


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Crystal, I've done lots of home visits for lots of rescue dogs. And I would continue to do them. Rescue dogs have already been dumped and to the best of my ability I want to be sure that they won't be dumped again. In all the home visits I've done, only twice have I refused to place any dog in that home ever. A few other times I chose not to place the rescue being considered in the home that I visited but later placed another rescue in that home. I made my decisions based on my impression of the people and the general safety of what would be the dog's living area inside and out. I asked to meet the adults and the children and asked what the plan was for training/confining, feeding and exercising the dog. I did not ask to see bedrooms and basements unless that space was going to be living space for the dog. In many cases I did make calls to vets or other references, but not always.

Before I ever invite anyone to my home to see a puppy I spend a lot of time on the phone with that person or meet them at a dog show. When people come to my home they sit in my living room and I bring the puppy or puppies out for them to visit with. I will bring the mom and dad out, too. I have a small 2-story house, living room, kitchen, dining room, dog room and bathroom on the first floor, 3 bedrooms and bathroom on the second floor and a basement, no garage, no barn, a deck and fenced dog yard off the kitchen side of the house in full view as one drives into the driveway. I have nothing to hide but do not give anyone a full house tour. I want to meet people before I decide to sell them a puppy and I want people to meet me and the puppy before they decide to purchase. For me, the focus is on the people and the puppy, not my bedrooms, bathrooms, basement or dog room. When people come to visit I have already put together a file containing medical records, pedigrees, AKC registration papers, etc. Puppies are bathed, adults dogs are clean, my house is clean and my dog yard is clean. Did I make my bed? Maybe, maybe not. Is there a basket of laundry sitting by the washing machine in the basement? Maybe, maybe not. If a person gets the "sense" or "scents" that I'm hiding dogs then they should walk away. But my home is still my home and I feel that I am entitled to some measure of privacy.


----------



## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Getting back to "numbers" and "names", I've been thinking about this thread a lot today, some of the points raised, and some of the assumptions made.
> 
> About the numbers - I still haven't moved off my belief that numbers do not automatically equal anything. Two dogs could be too many for someone while twenty-two might not be too many for someone else. What bothers me is that some people feel they have the right to decide what the number should be for someone other than themself and, further, that they have the right to know how many dogs another person has and that they have the right to inspect those dogs and their living quarters. We each have the right to buy or not buy a dog from a particular breeder but we don't have the right to decide what that breeder should be doing and how they should be doing it. As pet buyers I wonder how we would feel if the tables were turned and a breeder said to us "When would be a good time for me to inspect your home, meet your children, look at their school report cards and records from their doctor visits, peek into your refrigerator to see what sorts of foods you feed your family, etc." All of those things might give a breeder more insight into how their puppy will be raised but would I agree to that? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


 
:aktion033::aktion033: Mary, well said!!!!! Thank you so much for sharing your insight, it is so valuable!!!!


----------



## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

*So, the way I see it :biggrin:, In summary..............................*

*1. ) It matters not, the amount of dogs a breeder has in his or her Program.............Just as it matters not how many dogs a pet owner has. What does matter, is the care and health that is given to those furbabies under the care. A pet person, as it has been shown, can love, give all the proper care, to their multiple pets, to me, same would apply to a breeder with multiple pets.*

*Sadly, we know, that out in the real world, some pet owners, who have only one dog, are too irrepsonsible, uncaring to even take care of that precious one......So numbers does not matter....but the care and love that is applied.*

*2.) Always do your on-hand research. We shouldn't go based on what we heard, but what we have actually seen and experienced.*

*3.) We all share wonderful common denominator....we are blessed to be loved by the most loving breed...The Maltese :wub: *

*We all care deeply about the health and welfare of every dog and pray that the misery that those suffering in mills, a day will come that they no longer suffer.*

*4) When one of our furbabies our sick, we are always there for each other for support, prayers and understanding.*

*5) Lastly......GROUP HUG:Sunny Smile:*


----------



## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Great points have been raised. And what constitutes a large breeder to some may not be a large breeder to others. Does "large" just equate to famous dogs in some people's minds?? I thought it interesting in an earlier post that Marcris was included as a "large" breeder. I have been to Joyce's house on several occasions and seen all her dogs- I didn't count, but there were maybe 12. She only has one or two breeding females and mainly breeds for herself. Yes- Marcris is a famous name in the maltese community, but I don't think I would call her a "large" breeder


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

jpupart said:


> Great points have been raised. And what constitutes a large breeder to some may not be a large breeder to others. Does "large" just equate to famous dogs in some people's minds?? I thought it interesting in an earlier post that Marcris was included as a "large" breeder. I have been to Joyce's house on several occasions and seen all her dogs- I didn't count, but there were maybe 12. She only has one or two breeding females and mainly breeds for herself. Yes- Marcris is a famous name in the maltese community, but I don't think I would call her a "large" breeder


I was referring to larger breeders in terms of litters produced in a year. Some breeders I spoke with had only one to two litters a year. Joyce had more than that. In addition, she works with Du and frequently gets puppies back from Du.


----------



## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

:amen::good post - perfect:sLo_grouphug3:


allheart said:


> *So, the way I see it :biggrin:, In summary..............................*
> 
> *1. ) It matters not, the amount of dogs a breeder has in his or her Program.............Just as it matters not how many dogs a pet owner has. What does matter, is the care and health that is given to those furbabies under the care. A pet person, as it has been shown, can love, give all the proper care, to their multiple pets, to me, same would apply to a breeder with multiple pets.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Morning everyone, 

Just a friendly reminder to keep the discussions civil and refrain from calling other people names or referring to them in certain terms. Disagreements are perfectly fine. Just do it in a civil manner please.

Yung


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

*To clarify...*

I planned to stay out of this discussion but thought I should clarify a few things. Perhaps I should have been a little more specific in my OP. When I say "high-volume" that means a breeder with a lot of dogs. It could be anywhere from 25-300 or more. A "big breeder" can also mean famous, or well-known, but not necessarily high-volume and a "high-volume" breeder may also be a "big(well-known) breeder. Crystal did a marvelous job of sharing what it is like to care for 11 dogs. It sounds like the breeder is well-organized, very busy, and she knows her dogs. If someone can do that well with 100 Maltese dogs, who are a "high-maintanence" breed, I would be standing in awe of that person! When I think of considering a puppy/dog from a breeder with 20 or more dogs, no matter how popular or well-known, I would be more cautious about socialization with people, temperament, health, and record-keeping, than I would be from a breeder with a smaller number of dogs. So how many is too many? If the breeder does not know each dog by name, it's temperament, is having a hard time keeping records, if the puppies are not well-socialized, the breeder does not have time to talk to prospective owners, seems more concerned about money then the puppies, then they have too many. With Maltese, I think that the higher the number, the higher the risk of dogs who are unsocialized, unhealthy, or have poor temperaments. When considering a "high-volume" breeder, I would want to see where the dogs are kept. I would want to talk to people who have purchased those dogs. I would not allow myself to be dazzled because a breeder is famous or popular or been a huge contributer to the Maltese world. So I DO think numbers matter.:thumbsup:


----------



## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

aprilb said:


> I planned to stay out of this discussion but thought I should clarify a few things. Perhaps I should have been a little more specific in my OP. When I say "high-volume" that means a breeder with a lot of dogs. It could be anywhere from 25-300 or more. A "big breeder" can also mean famous, or well-known, but not necessarily high-volume and a "high-volume" breeder may also be a "big(well-known) breeder. Crystal did a marvelous job of sharing what it is like to care for 11 dogs. It sounds like the breeder is well-organized, very busy, and she knows her dogs. If someone can do that well with 100 Maltese dogs, who are a "high-maintanence" breed, I would be standing in awe of that person! When I think of considering a puppy/dog from a breeder with 20 or more dogs, no matter how popular or well-known, I would be more cautious about socialization with people, temperament, health, and record-keeping, than I would be from a breeder with a smaller number of dogs. So how many is too many? If the breeder does not know each dog by name, it's temperament, is having a hard time keeping records, if the puppies are not well-socialized, the breeder does not have time to talk to prospective owners, seems more concerned about money then the puppies, then they have too many. With Maltese, I think that the higher the number, the higher the risk of dogs who are unsocialized, unhealthy, or have poor temperaments. When considering a "high-volume" breeder, I would want to see where the dogs are kept. I would want to talk to people who have purchased those dogs. I would not allow myself to be dazzled because a breeder is famous or popular or been a huge contributer to the Maltese world. So I DO think numbers matter.:thumbsup:


I agree with you, April.


----------



## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

princessre said:


> I was referring to larger breeders in terms of litters produced in a year. Some breeders I spoke with had only one to two litters a year. Joyce had more than that. In addition, she works with Du and frequently gets puppies back from Du.





aprilb said:


> I planned to stay out of this discussion but thought I should clarify a few things. Perhaps I should have been a little more specific in my OP. When I say "high-volume" that means a breeder with a lot of dogs. It could be anywhere from 25-300 or more. A "big breeder" can also mean famous, or well-known, but not necessarily high-volume and a "high-volume" breeder may also be a "big(well-known) breeder. Crystal did a marvelous job of sharing what it is like to care for 11 dogs. It sounds like the breeder is well-organized, very busy, and she knows her dogs. If someone can do that well with 100 Maltese dogs, who are a "high-maintanence" breed, I would be standing in awe of that person! When I think of considering a puppy/dog from a breeder with 20 or more dogs, no matter how popular or well-known, I would be more cautious about socialization with people, temperament, health, and record-keeping, than I would be from a breeder with a smaller number of dogs. So how many is too many? If the breeder does not know each dog by name, it's temperament, is having a hard time keeping records, if the puppies are not well-socialized, the breeder does not have time to talk to prospective owners, seems more concerned about money then the puppies, then they have too many. With Maltese, I think that the higher the number, the higher the risk of dogs who are unsocialized, unhealthy, or have poor temperaments. When considering a "high-volume" breeder, I would want to see where the dogs are kept. I would want to talk to people who have purchased those dogs. I would not allow myself to be dazzled because a breeder is famous or popular or been a huge contributer to the Maltese world. So I DO think numbers matter.:thumbsup:


I was going to stay away from this thread of this ongoing diatribe of breeder bashing
I understand that many of you are concerned of the well being of the breeders dogs and there pups you are buying!!
The breeder is rare breed in itself. It take many long hours and years to breed a dog that is better than your last. Breeding is 70% science 30 % crapshoot. 
Coming from a home of show breeder I know exactly what it takes to breed your next show dog. The hours everyday of watering, feeding, playing, exercising and grooming dogs. I do know several breeders so called large and small. Famous and not so famous. I would never presume nor should anyone else on how many dogs they have or how much help they have nor if they know all the dogs by name.
My suggestion is for anyone who wants to breeder bash is to get a Great dog. Show that dog. Finish it to its championship. Then breed that dog. Then wait for the outcome!! For every golden moment a breeder enjoys in the show ring there are twice that amount in heartaches!!!
JMHO 
Lawrance


----------



## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

allheart said:


> *So, the way I see it :biggrin:, In summary..............................*
> 
> *1. ) It matters not, the amount of dogs a breeder has in his or her Program.............Just as it matters not how many dogs a pet owner has. What does matter, is the care and health that is given to those furbabies under the care. A pet person, as it has been shown, can love, give all the proper care, to their multiple pets, to me, same would apply to a breeder with multiple pets.*
> 
> ...


:grouphug::goodpost::sLo_grouphug3:


----------



## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

chiarasdad said:


> I was going to stay away from this thread of this ongoing diatribe of breeder bashing
> I understand that many of you are concerned of the well being of the breeders dogs and there pups you are buying!!
> The breeder is rare breed in itself. It take many long hours and years to breed a dog that is better than your last. Breeding is 70% science 30 % crapshoot.
> Coming from a home of show breeder I know exactly what it takes to breed your next show dog. The hours everyday of watering, feeding, playing, exercising and grooming dogs. I do know several breeders so called large and small. Famous and not so famous. I would never presume nor should anyone else on how many dogs they have or how much help they have nor if they know all the dogs by name.
> ...


:goodpost: Lawrance, I think I've said this many, many times on this forum -- until you've actually been a breeder and until you have owned show dogs and completed their championships, you truly don't understand all that goes into it.

April - again -- most of this simply goes back to a buyer doing his/her research and due diligence.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

:beating a dead hors:yield: Now, can we get back to raising and enjoying our fluffs.


----------



## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Furbaby's Mommie said:


> :beating a dead hors:yield: Now, can we get back to raising and enjoying our fluffs.


Amen!!!


----------



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Lacie's Mom said:


> :goodpost: Lawrance, I think I've said this many, many times on this forum -- until you've actually been a breeder and until you have owned show dogs and completed their championships, you truly don't understand all that goes into it. Well guess what? I was a show breeder back in the '80s of persian cats so I have some idea.


----------



## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

princessre said:


> I was referring to larger breeders in terms of litters produced in a year. Some breeders I spoke with had only one to two litters a year. Joyce had more than that. In addition, she works with Du and frequently gets puppies back from Du.


Perhaps this was in the past. Joyce has just confirmed with me that she has ONE adult female who has just had her first litter. She is mainly a stud kennel. I don't see how anyone can call her a "large volume" breeder with only one female. If she gets puppies back from another breeder that is not her breeding the puppies-except if you consider that it is her stud used.


----------



## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

jpupart said:


> Perhaps this was in the past. Joyce has just confirmed with me that she has ONE adult female who has just had her first litter. She is mainly a stud kennel. I don't see how anyone can call her a "large volume" breeder with only one female. If she gets puppies back from another breeder that is not her breeding the puppies-except if you consider that it is her stud used.


Jocelyn
I speak with Joyce every day. I know that the info you are stating is exactly correct.!!! Thanks for Stating what I was going to


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

My point is not that Joyce's breeding program is large, only that it was larger than some other very tiny breeders that seem to be favored on SM right now. Frankly I don't think any of these breeder's programs that we speak of on SM are large-- larger being more than 0-2. I was trying to state the opposite point that to limit your choice of breeder to ones that only bred 0-2 litters a year was too limiting. I know that Joyce's program is smaller than it used to be. But still, she did have puppies available several times when I called in that period. She never came across like the really small breeders that I spoke to during that period who told me "Oh gosh, no, the economy is bad. I've pared down-- maybe I will have one litter this year, but I don't even know if I will have one." Whenever I spoke to Joyce in that 18 month period that I was looking, she reluctantly told me a few times she had something, but only if I wanted to pay show price, not pet price. I'm not AT ALL saying that Marcris is a large scale breeder now. I'm saying the opposite, that these so-called larger breeders who might have more than 0-2 litters should not be crucified. If saying that she had more than 0 puppies available is calling her large on an absolute scale, then that is NOT what I intended at all. Do you know how many breeders stopped breeding in that time period of economic downturn? If I misspoke about Joyce, please tell her that I sincerely apologize. I have loved speaking to her every single time. She is the godmother of Maltese and she is the nicest human being ever. Maybe what she was thinking was available to me were puppies from Du- I know she mentioned a couple times that he gave her puppies as "presents". She said the puppies were from her, or I could call Du for "pet prices," but I don't know the details between them. In that case, please give her my sincerest apologies.


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

princessre said:


> My point is not that Joyce's breeding program is large, only that it was larger than some other very tiny breeders that seem to be favored on SM right now. Frankly I don't think any of these breeder's programs that we speak of on SM are large-- larger being more than 0-2. I was trying to state the opposite point that to limit your choice of breeder to ones that only bred 0-2 litters a year was too limiting. I know that Joyce's program is smaller than it used to be. But still, she did have puppies available several times when I called in that period. She never came across like the really small breeders that I spoke to during that period who told me "Oh gosh, no, the economy is bad. I've pared down-- maybe I will have one litter this year, but I don't even know if I will have one." Whenever I spoke to Joyce in that 18 month period that I was looking, she reluctantly told me a few times she had something, but only if I wanted to pay show price, not pet price. I'm not AT ALL saying that Marcris is a large scale breeder now. I'm saying the opposite, that these so-called larger breeders who might have more than 0-2 litters should not be crucified. If saying that she had more than 0 puppies available is calling her large on an absolute scale, then that is NOT what I intended at all. Do you know how many breeders stopped breeding in that time period of economic downturn? *If I misspoke about Joyce, please tell her that I sincerely apologize.* I have loved speaking to her every single time. She is the godmother of Maltese and she is the nicest human being ever. Maybe what she was thinking was available to me were puppies from Du- I know she mentioned a couple times that he gave her puppies as "presents". She said the puppies were from her, or I could call Du for "pet prices," but I don't know the details between them. *In that case, please give her my sincerest apologies.*


 
You might want to call Joyce and the other breeders yourself that you have probably upset and apologize to them about your comments. Just saying...:thumbsup:


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I think Yung already told you what you can do with your comments toward me, thanks!


----------



## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

Sophia 
I know you did not mean anything bad about Joyce or her breeding program. So there is no need for apologies I am sure. Her scale of breeding does come from bitches she has sold that she gets pups back for. She might have pups sometimes and none others. I know you were not trying to be malicious. Joyce does mostly breed for herself. She cares about her dogs and has a hard time parting with them. But she has given me her friendship and love and support. But most of all she gave my JJ!!! So dont worry about it Sophia
Lawrance


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

admin said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> *Just a friendly reminder to keep the discussions civil and refrain from calling other people names or referring to them in certain terms.* Disagreements are perfectly fine. Just do it in a civil manner please.
> 
> Yung





mysugarbears said:


> You might want to call Joyce and the other breeders yourself that you have probably upset and apologize to them about your comments. Just saying...:thumbsup:





princessre said:


> I think Yung already told you what you can do with your comments toward me, thanks!


 
I didn't call you a name or refer to you in a certain term. So i honestly don't understand your comment to me.


----------



## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

I agree with Lawrence that Joyce probably wouldn't care about an apology. I just wanted to set the record straight when you said she was a large volume breeder and she's not. It's funny that you said she would reluctantly tell you about a puppy. It's so true-she really does have a hard time letting them go!! And there is no "pet"price with Joyce.
She's a really fun lady- I'm so sorry I won't be going to the Nationals and going to her big Marcris anniversary party.


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

mysugarbears said:


> OMG...your a piece of work. :shocked:


You didn't call me "a piece of work"? Was that a term of endearment?

We may disagree from time to time, but have I ever called you a disparaging term like that? 

If you cannot go toe to toe discussing something, then just stop instead of lashing out in personal attacks. It reflects negatively on you, not me.


----------



## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

admin said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> *Just a friendly reminder to keep the discussions civil and refrain from calling other people names or referring to them in certain terms.* Disagreements are perfectly fine. Just do it in a civil manner please.
> 
> Yung





mysugarbears said:


> *You might want to call Joyce and the other breeders yourself that you have probably upset and apologize to them about your comments.* Just saying...:thumbsup:





princessre;1910156[B said:


> ]I think Yung already told you what you can do with your comments toward me, thanks![/[/B]QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

This thread appears to have become a bickering contest. Time to close it, maybe?


----------



## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

mysugarbears said:


> princessre;1910156[B said:
> 
> 
> > ]I think Yung already told you what you can do with your comments toward me, thanks![/[/B]QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

chiarasdad said:


> Sophia
> I know you did not mean anything bad about Joyce or her breeding program. So there is no need for apologies I am sure. Her scale of breeding does come from bitches she has sold that she gets pups back for. She might have pups sometimes and none others. I know you were not trying to be malicious. Joyce does mostly breed for herself. She cares about her dogs and has a hard time parting with them. But she has given me her friendship and love and support. But most of all she gave my JJ!!! So dont worry about it Sophia
> Lawrance


You know what we always say in rescue, Larry? The right dog ends up in the right home. You and Liz purchased JJ long after he was given his official name. There's no irony here, it was all part of God's great plan ... JJ, otherwise known as GCH. Marcris Class Act was meant to live his life with you, Larry and Liz, a couple who truly are a CLASS ACT! :smootch:


----------



## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

MaryH said:


> You know what we always say in rescue, Larry? The right dog ends up in the right home. You and Liz purchased JJ long after he was given his official name. There's no irony here, it was all part of God's great plan ... JJ, otherwise known as GCH. Marcris Class Act was meant to live his life with you, Larry and Liz, a couple who truly are a CLASS ACT! :smootch:


Mary you are truly a great lady with a wealth of knowledge!!! Liz and I value your friendship. Thank you for all of that and being you!!:wub:

PS can't we all just get along lol


----------

