# Impossible to purchase show quality dog on full AKC?



## Maltese22 (Jan 12, 2012)

For several years now it has been my dream to purchase a show quality maltese with full AKC "no strings attached" that I can get into showing with. Unfortunately, I have become overwhelmingly frustrated with maltese show breeders and their policies. I have never seen such outrageous demands in the name of preserving bloodlines, keeping the dog safe, etc. IMO, its all about exclusivity and keeping puppy prices through the roof. Do people actually buy these puppies with the sort of contracts typical of show breeders and at the extremely high prices asked? Curious, I have researched other breeds and was disappointed to find that this behavior seems to be strongest among maltese breeders. I am not signing a contract that stipulates I have to pay them 10x asking price of a puppy if I breed the dog, or that tells me what I can or cant do with the puppies I may produce, or demands the use of my male at their whim, or pick puppy back from a female they might sell me by the stud of their choice. Once I buy a dog I like to think of it as mine. Even if I never breed it, it will never feel like my pet if I have a contract threatening to sue me for outrageous amounts of money if I do something with a dog I paid a large amount of money for. I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I am just very very disappointed with not being able to find an unselfish person to sell me a quality dog. I will have to end up buying a non show quality backyard breeder type maltese and show in agility or something, not conformation like I'd hoped to. IMO breeders who make outrageous demands in order to "share" their bloodlines are just hurting the breed by limiting the gene pool and keeping a lot of good people away.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Hi and welcome to Spoiled Maltese. :Welcome 2:

I had been a longtime pet owner before I ever got interested in showing and so had a few established contacts in the breed before I began, so my experience might not be typical, but I do want to answer your questions as I am always eager to welcome folks into the show world who share my total love and devotion for the breed. 

I hope you will consider that there is another side to the story on many of your concerns regarding contracts. Getting a dog from beautiful established, winning lines is a privilege. Where you think of the dog as yours once you buy and pay for it, most breeders consider that they have been working for generations to establish the line they have created and their hard work is something they want to preserve and protect and share only with those who prove themselves worthy of such a high level of trust. 

I will give you an example. Recently there was a thread on here about a "show-breeder" who used a champion out of one of the most famous lines of Maltese to breed to a Pomeranian, creating Malti-Poms. These are Mutts. Others have purchased dogs from established breeders without a contract only to finish them to their championship and then sell them to Puppy-mill operations. Both of these things are horrifying to someone who loves not only their own dogs, but also loves the breed and cares about the preservation of the breed. 

When I set out to purchase my own show dogs, I happily signed the contracts I was presented with because I understood that I was benefiting from the hard work of others and they had already placed their trust in me (that I would live up to this agreement and their reasonable expectations). I also willingly agreed to co-ownership deals. All three of the dogs I have finished, were co-owned by their breeder through their championship and 2 of the 3 have been signed over to me now that I have completed my obligations to their respective breeders, the 3rd will be once she produces her first litter and I can provide the pay-back puppy requested. I recently purchased a grand-daughter to my first champion (out of his daughter) and I was given the privilege of owning her outright without the co-ownership, having proven myself with my first dogs. 

For another example of the contracts I signed, the breeder of my lovely Champion boy does have the right to ask to use him anytime she wishes. Yet, she has always "asked" despite that right in the contract. The first time she asked, he was bred to one of her lovely girls and produced the Best of Winners at nationals. I would say that our agreement worked out beautifully for us both. 

As for the contract you can live with, I understand some of your concerns. I was not obligated to breed to a specific dog (although since I did owe a puppy back on my previous litter I did ask my girl's breeder if she was happy with MY choice). I would be obligated to pay large sums of money if I bred my girl without having fulfilled my obligations per the contract. I personally think this is protection to keep the dogs from being used by Greeders. 

Most of the time the stipulation on what you do with the puppies is a simple one. They must go as pets and not as breeding stock with full registration. Frankly, this one gets to the heart of breeders "caring" about what happens to the dogs directly from their lines. If you decide to sell a puppy to some puppymill or BYB it reflects directly on them because the sire or dam would carry their kennel name. That impacts their reputation. It also impacts their heart. They love their dogs and would be appalled to imagine one of their dogs children living in horrible conditions being used by Greeders. If you breed your first champion honestly you should be placing their get as pets unless you have someone more experienced (such as your dogs breeder helping you decide) because placing a dog in a show home is a huge responsibility and IMHO it takes years of experience before most people can recognize in their own litters the ones that should go as show prospects. I think that selling for show is one thing that most folks should wait to do until they are at least a generation or two out anyway. 

Not all contracts are as strict as others, but I would be bothered more by someone who did not care to ask you to sign a contract. Not only does that make me think the breeder does not care about their dogs, their lines, and the preservation of the breed in general, but I believe the contract also protects you. It should spell out clearly what the expectations are about showing and finishing the dog and what rights you do have. 

I would encourage you to get to know some show breeders in person, attend dog shows. Do not be scared off by the words "show contract" and find out as much as you can about these contracts. I would look for a dog with a contract that seems something you can live with rather than looking for one with no strings at all. Honestly, if that is your priority, you are likely to end up with a lesser quality dog and a breeder who is not much of a mentor. Once you get to know some of the people you might be interested in working with, talk to them about the concerns you have and see what they are willing to negotiate. The better they know you, and learn to trust you, the more flexibility you might find. In the end a contract is an agreement. It should be agreeable to BOTH sides. 

Again, welcome to SM and feel free to PM me with your phone number if you would like to learn more about my experiences as I got into showing.


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## LexiMom (Feb 7, 2012)

IMO breeders who make outrageous demands in order to "share" their bloodlines are just hurting the breed by limiting the gene pool and keeping a lot of good people away.[/QUOTE]


First WELCOME TO SM!! Carina that was an excellent response. 

I do have to disagree with what Maltese22 said - It takes years and years for the show breeders to establish their look and their lines and as Carina said it is a "Privledge" to own one of their maltese. I really hope you do not go to a BYB or Pet Store (who do give full AKC registration out so quickly) - the other downfall the a pet store or BYB is health issues - so although you get full AKC you never know the health of the lines.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Maltese22 said:


> For several years now it has been my dream to purchase a show quality maltese with full AKC "no strings attached" that I can get into showing with. Unfortunately, I have become overwhelmingly frustrated with maltese show breeders and their policies. I have never seen such outrageous demands in the name of preserving bloodlines, keeping the dog safe, etc. IMO, its all about exclusivity and keeping puppy prices through the roof. Do people actually buy these puppies with the sort of contracts typical of show breeders and at the extremely high prices asked? Curious, I have researched other breeds and was disappointed to find that this behavior seems to be strongest among maltese breeders. I am not signing a contract that stipulates I have to pay them 10x asking price of a puppy if I breed the dog, or that tells me what I can or cant do with the puppies I may produce, or demands the use of my male at their whim, or pick puppy back from a female they might sell me by the stud of their choice. Once I buy a dog I like to think of it as mine. Even if I never breed it, it will never feel like my pet if I have a contract threatening to sue me for outrageous amounts of money if I do something with a dog I paid a large amount of money for. I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I am just very very disappointed with not being able to find an unselfish person to sell me a quality dog. I will have to end up buying a non show quality backyard breeder type maltese and show in agility or something, not conformation like I'd hoped to. IMO breeders who make outrageous demands in order to "share" their bloodlines are just hurting the breed by limiting the gene pool and keeping a lot of good people away.


 
*Oh please read thoroughly Carina's post (Cloud Clan). I was going to highlight all the important parts, but then I would be highliting her whole post. *

*I am only a pet owner, and plan to always be that, but I would be horrified, of a reputable show breeder, did not ask you a great deal of questions. It is so necessary.*

*Carina, gave you incredible advice. What she has offered is invaluable.*

*Please don't get frustrated, stick around here, and honestly, follow Carina's (Cloud Clans) advice. I think she even offered for you to Private Message her. *

*If I were to call one of these wonderful breeders, and want a pup on an unrestircted contract, I know I would be asked the same questions and experience the same as you did. This is such an important issue. *

*Again, please don't get frustrated, and read Cloud Clan's post, and even reach out to her. *


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

:goodpost: Carina and Christine. :wub: Wonderful and invaluable advice!


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## educ8m (May 19, 2010)

Carina, thank you for taking the time to write such an informative post. Maltese22, I am still very new to the Maltese world having gotten my first one (a pet) about 15 months ago. In those months, I have been amazed at how eager and willing most people are to share their knowledge and welcome others to their world. When I first got Gracie, all it took was one phone call to a local show breeder and she was offering to come to my house to give me some grooming tips. She showed up with many supplies that she gave me, and two hours later, I felt much more confident. My breeders are on opposite coasts and I live right in the middle of the country, but they did not just hand over the puppy and disappear. I have continued to learn from them and am GLAD they are there as a resource, friend, and mentor. Even when purchasing a Maltese as a pet, I signed a contract. Of course those contracts are not as restrictive as a show contract, but it does offer some protection for the breeder and the owner. For example, I agreed to contact my breeder in the event of any serious illness to get her advice before treatment. This is intended to protect the dog from unneccesary surgery or diagnostic testing. For example, some vets immediately do very expensive diagnostic testing or even liver biopsies if a bile acid test comes back a little above normal and that is not necessary. 

Being so new to the Maltese world, I have only attended a few shows. I was fortunate to be able to go to the National Specialty show last April where I learned more in four days than I could have learned in months otherwise. I did not encounter any show person who was unwilling to talk to me. 

Please take Carina's advice and get to know some show people. If you find someone you "click" with, you may be more open to their show contract and in fact welcome it. Maltese people are wonderful individuals who are passionate about the breed and want to protect what they have strived so long to achieve, but welcome newcomers who share their passion and want to learn.


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

Maltese22 said:


> For several years now it has been my dream to purchase a show quality maltese with full AKC "no strings attached" that I can get into showing with. Unfortunately, I have become overwhelmingly frustrated with maltese show breeders and their policies. I have never seen such outrageous demands in the name of preserving bloodlines, keeping the dog safe, etc. IMO, its all about exclusivity and keeping puppy prices through the roof. Do people actually buy these puppies with the sort of contracts typical of show breeders and at the extremely high prices asked? Curious, I have researched other breeds and was disappointed to find that this behavior seems to be strongest among maltese breeders. I am not signing a contract that stipulates I have to pay them 10x asking price of a puppy if I breed the dog, or that tells me what I can or cant do with the puppies I may produce, or demands the use of my male at their whim, or pick puppy back from a female they might sell me by the stud of their choice. *Once I buy a dog I like to think of it as mine.* Even if I never breed it, it will never feel like my pet if I have a contract threatening to sue me for outrageous amounts of money if I do something with a dog I paid a large amount of money for. I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I am just very very disappointed with not being able to find an unselfish person to sell me a quality dog. I will have to end up buying a non show quality backyard breeder type maltese and show in agility or something, not conformation like I'd hoped to. IMO breeders who make outrageous demands in order to "share" their bloodlines are just hurting the breed by limiting the gene pool and keeping a lot of good people away.


I think it is impossible to own another creature, and that we are more like their caretakers. But for the sake of discussion, I would like to suggest that a Maltese that is being shown & breed belongs to the entire Maltese community. Not just to you, as the prospective shower & breeder, but that Maltese would be "owned" by it's generations past and to come. That is the big picture, you'd be playing a small role (if given the privilege) in helping the breed advance. You can't severe the ties to the others involved in this, you would be forever connected through your dogs. That is a good thing, like a family tree. The rules & contracts are to prevent someone from snapping off a limb of the tree.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Excellent post, Carina!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you Carina for an excellent post.

I am not very experience with show breeding, but I never found the requirements in the least bit outrageous.

You say that once you BUY a dog you want to think of it as yours. You don't actually buy a dog...you pay a fee to adopt it. As long as it has the kennel name it will continue to represent that kennel forever. 

I am glad that breeders are so strict, I would hate to see people wrecklessly breeding Malts out of titled dogs.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Canada said:


> I think it is impossible to own another creature, and that we are more like their caretakers. But for the sake of discussion, I would like to suggest that a Maltese that is being shown & breed belongs to the entire Maltese community. Not just to you, as the prospective shower & breeder, but that Maltese would be "owned" by it's generations past and to come. That is the big picture, you'd be playing a small role (if given the privilege) in helping the breed advance. You can't severe the ties to the others involved in this, you would be forever connected through your dogs. That is a good thing, like a family tree. The rules & contracts are to prevent someone from snapping off a limb of the tree.


 
Wow, this was said so perfectly too.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

*"If I can't find an unselfish person to sell me a quality dog [with no strings attached] I will have to end up buying a non show quality backyard breeder type maltese and show in agility or something, not conformation like I'd hoped to." *
This statement really bothers me on many levels. If you can't have what you want, you would just go to a BYB (greeder) instead of perhaps finding a beautiful pet quality dog from a reputable breeder? I know you say you want to show in conformation, but what is your overall goal? Producing puppies for sale? All of these contracts and rules are to protect the breed.

Even my pet quality malts were placed with me on a contract with the breeder. I signed that contract happily. I know that if anything were to ever happen to me, she would take my dogs back and make sure they were OK. That means alot to me, and I don't in the least feel that they are any less my dogs. I also have maintained a relationshoip with my breeder and she is able to see my dogs from time to time. I like that she cares about all of her dogs, even after they have gone on to live in other families. You won't get that from a BYB, believe me!


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> *"If I can't find an unselfish person to sell me a quality dog [with no strings attached] I will have to end up buying a non show quality backyard breeder type maltese and show in agility or something, not conformation like I'd hoped to." *
> This statement really bothers me on many levels. If you can't have what you want, you would just go to a BYB (greeder) instead of perhaps finding a beautiful pet quality dog from a reputable breeder? I know you say you want to show in conformation, but what is your overall goal? Producing puppies for sale? All of these contracts and rules are to protect the breed.
> 
> Even my pet quality malts were placed with me on a contract with the breeder. I signed that contract happily. I know that if anything were to ever happen to me, she would take my dogs back and make sure they were OK. That means alot to me, and I don't in the least feel that they are any less my dogs.


 

Oh heavens I didn't even see that statement. 

I truly hope you read Cloud Clan's post and also reach out to her. 

Like Pam, I too had to sign a contract for Ana, and was very happy to do so, as we know the importance of it.

There are people here who really can help, if your goal is to have this loving breed in your heart, learn about showing, and keep this darling breed in exsistence.


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## Aarianne (Jul 22, 2005)

I'd like to get involved in showing maltese one day so I've thought about much of this already. 

Hypothetically, as a newbie in the maltese show world, I would feel lucky to be able to purchase a show dog from a reputable show breeder who I believe in and I would be willing to pay a premium in order for them to take a chance on me and for me to have such a good start with a quality dog. I'd look at it like I'm supporting a breeding program and breeder that I truly believe in and in the long run, my payment benefits the maltese show world in general as a result. I guess I see it almost like a donation of sorts, to a breeder and system that I believe in. They're contributing a lot by sharing their dog with me (and hopefully some knowledge too!) and unlike another established show breeder, I don't have much to offer them in return aside from a donation to help support their program.

I think fairly strict contracts do prevent a lot of people from taking advantage of the breeders, their dogs, and kennel name. The contracts typically seem to temporarily reduce breeding-related income potential for the new breeder--so people who are looking to make a profit riding on the coattails of an established kennel name will probably choose to look elsewhere to make their quick buck. 

Don't get me wrong--it would be nice if breeders would make their contracts easier on newbies that have their heart and motivations in the right place (like me! lol), but sadly it's the con artist types that often come across as the nicest people and you know how the saying goes... once bitten, twice shy. So I couldn't really blame them.

If you continue to pursue your desire to show/breed and do have the best intentions... probably one day you'll find yourself in their shoes with the same concerns. Do you sell your extra show quality girl from an exceptional litter to another established breeder that you already trust? Do you keep her even though you're already keeping one or two and feel like you already have your hands full? Do you sell her as a pet? Or do you take a chance on that girl that contacted you that assures you she wants to start showing/breeding maltese and has all the best intentions, but she indicated that she wants full breeding rights, no co-ownership, and she's green in the ring? I can certainly see how they probably get all kinds of knots in their stomach just thinking about selling a show dog or show potential pup to someone new even with a strict contract!


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

pammy4501 said:


> *"If I can't find an unselfish person to sell me a quality dog [with no strings attached] I will have to end up buying a non show quality backyard breeder type maltese and show in agility or something, not conformation like I'd hoped to." *
> This statement really bothers me on many levels. If you can't have what you want, you would just go to a BYB (greeder) instead of perhaps finding a beautiful pet quality dog from a reputable breeder? I know you say you want to show in conformation, but what is your overall goal? Producing puppies for sale? All of these contracts and rules are to protect the breed.
> 
> Even my pet quality malts were placed with me on a contract with the breeder. I signed that contract happily. I know that if anything were to ever happen to me, she would take my dogs back and make sure they were OK. That means alot to me, and I don't in the least feel that they are any less my dogs. I also have maintained a relationshoip with my breeder and she is able to see my dogs from time to time. I like that she cares about all of her dogs, even after they have gone on to live in other families. You won't get that from a BYB, believe me!


:goodpost::goodpost: I think a pet quality dog from a show breeder is a wonderful option for agility/obedience/etc if you want to do fun and competitive events with your pup. I understand that you might be frustrated with the process but that does not mean you should resort to perpetuating the BYB/puppy mill business by purchasing a dog from these avenues. Perhaps, as Pam suggested, think about your intentions for bringing a maltese into your life and try to see it from the responsible breeders' perspective. Getting a pup (pet or show quality) from a responsible, ethical show breeder is DEFINITELY worth waiting for.

Also, Thank you Carina for that SUPER informative post. You are a great example of someone who not only cares for her own dogs, has passion for the maltese breed, but also considers the welfare of all dogs in general.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I think all of the responses are excellent -- Carina -- Great Post; Pam - Great Catch.

One other thing to be considered by any person new to showing -- you want the breeder that you get your Show Quality Dog from to be your Mentor and help you in learning more about, not only the Show World, but also in breeding future litters. I would never even consider getting a Show Dog from someone that I didn't want to help mentor me (if I was new to showing). In attention, the show world is a small community where everyone pretty well knows everyone else, so going forward, if you decide to bring in other lines to create your own "look", you will need to be in your original breeders good graces. 

Contracts are there for the protection of the lines and the fluffs. Prior to AKC providing "Limited Registration", you would not believe some of the things that happened to fluffs that were placed as pets or even to some that were to be Shown by newbies.


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