# OMG I am going through heck :(



## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

So I got a Maltese from a breeder who was a retired breeding dog. When I got her she was a mess in my opinion. Her face was stained and crusty, her teeth were god awful, and she was scared of EVERYTHING. The breeder told me she was great shape, happy, etc etc. She would flinch like I was going to hit her all the time. When I contacted the breeder about her teeth she goes... oh yeah if I would have taken care of that I would have raised the price. First off I paid 800 dollars for her which is a lot but second off I got sent a dog who had the worst teeth. 

Now the part that just tears my heart out. For the last 2 weeks I have been working so hard on getting her to come around. Shes finally happy in the house now (though not potty trained like I was told!) but I heard her bark for the first time and I heard the mod god awful bark I had ever heard. I emailed the breeder and found out SHE WAS DEBARKED. I am so upset beyond words. My poor little baby. I think debarking is disgusting first of all but second its illegal in my state!

I don't know what to do I want half of my money back from this "breeder". I was also contacted by someone else who got a dog from her that told me that she is experiencing the exact same things I was. Being lied to. I will keep her anonymous as that was requested but what do I do. My poor baby her bark  I love that loud high pitched Maltese yelp and now I will forever be deprived of it :'(


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## Nissa Fiona (Nov 4, 2007)

> So I got a Maltese from a breeder who was a retired breeding dog. When I got her she was a mess in my opinion. Her face was stained and crusty, her teeth were god awful, and she was scared of EVERYTHING. The breeder told me she was great shape, happy, etc etc. She would flinch like I was going to hit her all the time. When I contacted the breeder about her teeth she goes... oh yeah if I would have taken care of that I would have raised the price. First off I paid 800 dollars for her which is a lot but second off I got sent a dog who had the worst teeth.
> 
> Now the part that just tears my heart out. For the last 2 weeks I have been working so hard on getting her to come around. Shes finally happy in the house now (though not potty trained like I was told!) but I heard her bark for the first time and I heard the mod god awful bark I had ever heard. I emailed the breeder and found out SHE WAS DEBARKED. I am so upset beyond words. My poor little baby. I think debarking is disgusting first of all but second its illegal in my state!
> 
> I don't know what to do I want half of my money back from this "breeder". I was also contacted by someone else who got a dog from her that told me that she is experiencing the exact same things I was. Being lied to. I will keep her anonymous as that was requested but what do I do. My poor baby her bark  I love that loud high pitched Maltese yelp and now I will forever be deprived of it :'([/B]



That poor little girl! What she's obviously gone through. :smcry: That "breeder" needs to have her teeth and voice box taken out and see how she likes it :angry: . You are most wonderful for taking this little fluff in to give her the perfect life. How old is she? Are any of her teeth worth saving? Please, please, please post pictures. I would go after her for AT LEAST half your money back! Good luck and have patience. :wub2:


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

:bysmilie: oh my God, I am so sorry.
Have you spoken with the breeder on the phone?
I know it's a well known breeder and she has beautiful pups. 
Has she said she will help you out :bysmilie:


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Its just been one thing after another with my baby. She got her from another breeder she said. But just everything has been a lie. She was supposable potty trained, shes not, her debarking mortifies me I think its TERRIBLE her beautiful bark Ill never hear it. Barking is also a something a dog uses to protect themselves. No wonder shes always scared she can't bark!


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

My understanding was that when you got a retired dog they were free and you paid for the teeth cleaning and the spaying (that were to be done before you picked them up). When I got my retired girl - the breeder and I worked an arrangement where I was to get her spayed and teeth done here since it is so much cheaper in NM then in Central CA - It cost $250 for her spay and update on shots and she is getting her teeth cleaned on the 16th which will run about $150. 
Oh, i have to send lots of pictures of her back to her former owner 

I'm sorry you are having these difficulties and weren't given all the information.


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

> My understanding was that when you got a retired dog they were free and you paid for the teeth cleaning and the spaying (that were to be done before you picked them up). When I got my retired girl - the breeder and I worked an arrangement where I was to get her spayed and teeth done here since it is so much cheaper in NM then in Central CA - It cost $250 for her spay and update on shots and she is getting her teeth cleaned on the 16th which will run about $150.
> Oh, i have to send lots of pictures of her back to her former owner
> 
> I'm sorry you are having these difficulties and were given all the information.[/B]


Candie had to be spayed and have a Hernia fixed. So I understood paying a little more, but her teeth weren't even cleaned, and a picture I saw from her at the vet she just looks so unhappy and a mess. Im just so happy that shes getting spoiled at my house now. Eating her Raw dinners, dressing in nice clothes, drinking fresh water, getting hugs and kisses, and playing with my little Chloe (they love each other BTW!)


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Here are some before and Afters


















Look at that sad, stained, and lonley face :'(


















Daddy cleaned her face, cut her ears and tail, and gave her a pretty dress. Look at that loved and happy face!









Causing trouble with Sissy!


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## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

I hate to hear all the problems you've had with this baby but I'm sure glad you have her now and she has a good loving home. 
Hugs to Candi.


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

That poor baby. I am sure you will do right by her!

If the dog is debarked and its illegal in your state... I would collect as much evidence as possible to prove that she debarked the dog. Like, any registry papers showing she has been the only other owner, vet reports, etc. Then I would go to the breeder and tell her that she mis-represented the dogs condition, and had you not been mis-informed, that you would never have agreed to pay as much as you did. Ask for a refund that you feel is fair-- offer to return the dog for a full refund. (she *will not* want that dog back. If she is a puppymiller as we suspect, she will want whatever she *can* get out of the dog with the least amount of trouble) If she gives you the refund, take it and run. Report her to the proper authorities. 

If she refuses the refund, make it clear that she has misled you and that you *will* take her to small claims court if she doesn't help you. She will most likely cave. If not, tell her you are going to take her to court, and report her to the authorities for debarking dogs illegally. If she isn't dumb, she will know that you mean business and give you the refund.

The idea is, play it nice and easy. Be pleasant at first, and try to get your flies with honey. If that doesn't work, get mean. :biggrin: 

PS...for extra impact, make sure you know the laws regarding debarking procedures and the possible penalties...so you can tell her those things if you have to get mean.


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## kathym (Aug 5, 2006)

I AM SO SORRY FOR YOU AND THAT POOR BABY . MAYBE SHE DOEST HAVE A VOICE BUT WHEN YOU LOOK INTO HER EYES SHE WILL SPEAK.AS YOU KNOW HOW EXPRESSIVE THEY ARE .AND TO WHO EVER DID THAT TO THE POOR BABY SHOULD ROT IN H---.


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

I mean look at those before and afters. You can totally tell a difference in her eyes.


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

This is supposed to be a WELL KNOWN breeder??!! As in well respected?? Having a good name in breeding is supposed to mean something....


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

I am sorry that you are having the problems you are having and I have to say I can relate to where you are coming from.

We had 5 rescues, now down to 4 and all have had one issue or another. One of them, Frisky, might have also been debarked...
She certainly has no bark now, but frankly I have not asked the vet to even investigate as I simply do not want to know for sure.  

The one thing I can say for certain is that most rescues do eventually come around and or learn potty training, etc and when they do, the feeling you will experience is all the more rewarding. 

I know I'm almost hijacking your thread and I do not want to do that... I only want to provide you a little encouragement to keep up with what you are doing... In our situation, I think we got these rescues in March and so we have had them now nearly 3 months. Just as an fyi... little Marvin has very suddenly changed into cutest little guy i have ever seen and he has a great but low key but very playful and cute personality too. Two or three weeks ago, Peg and I were seriously concerned there was something wrong with him and that he would NEVER come around.
:aktion033:


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

:bysmilie: Im really sorry
I don't know why someone would debark a dog, maybe it was a medical reason :huh: 
I really don't know if it could be I don't know much about that(debarking), but I am so sorry , you didn't know.
you must have been in shock to say the least :grouphug:


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

She was probably debarked because Maltese are notorious for there Strong barks.

She looks like she is still lactating as well. Her nipples and belly is still engorged. I know nothing about non neutered females. I am very scared for my baby.


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## Nissa Fiona (Nov 4, 2007)

OMG does she ever look happy now! She doesn't look like the same dog that you posted in an earlier thread which was also supposed to be her though. But, your little Candie is a little doll and so lucky to have found you.


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

Just be happy she landed in your arms. I got a lemon too with Peanut but I am glad he landed in my arms. It's a shame that your breeder had to lie about all the things that were wrong with Candie I know how you feel but you got her from a well known breeder I won't use the word "reputable". I would threaten her with exposing her to the Maltese community and taking her to small claims court you should be able to get at least 1/2 of your money back $800 is a bit high for a retiree.

I'm sorry this has happened to you my advise is just to spoil her rotten like she obviously has never been. I'm so glad the two fluffs get along.


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> So I got a Maltese from a breeder who was a retired breeding dog. When I got her she was a mess in my opinion. Her face was stained and crusty, her teeth were god awful, and she was scared of EVERYTHING. The breeder told me she was great shape, happy, etc etc. She would flinch like I was going to hit her all the time. When I contacted the breeder about her teeth she goes... oh yeah if I would have taken care of that I would have raised the price. First off I paid 800 dollars for her which is a lot but second off I got sent a dog who had the worst teeth.
> 
> Now the part that just tears my heart out. For the last 2 weeks I have been working so hard on getting her to come around. Shes finally happy in the house now (though not potty trained like I was told!) but I heard her bark for the first time and I heard the mod god awful bark I had ever heard. I emailed the breeder and found out SHE WAS DEBARKED. I am so upset beyond words. My poor little baby. I think debarking is disgusting first of all but second its illegal in my state!
> 
> I don't know what to do I want half of my money back from this "breeder". I was also contacted by someone else who got a dog from her that told me that she is experiencing the exact same things I was. Being lied to. I will keep her anonymous as that was requested but what do I do. My poor baby her bark  I love that loud high pitched Maltese yelp and now I will forever be deprived of it :'([/B]



As an FYI, for those that consider acquiring any retired Maltese (male or female) from a show breeder, generally speaking, no reputable breeder is going to charge more than the cost of spay + cost of teething cleaning. Depending on area will run anywhere from $500 - $1,000. However, it is always perfectly reasonable to request the vet records confirming any and all procedures prior to acquisition. Actually, I would always recommend the latter, and/or at the very least request the breeder's vet name and phone number with an agreed release of any vet records. In addition, it is my opinion (in particular) with a retired older dog the Breeder should be willing to re-aquire the dog from the person, should then new owner not believe it is working out well. Ultimately, this is in the best interest of the dog.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

:shocked: OMG, I'm stunned. Breeders don't "sell" retirees, they find good homes for them & adopt them out for the price of a spay, shots & teeth cleaning. Poor baby, I thought only puppymill rescues ended up in that condition. I'm glad you love her & are taking good care of her. It shouldn't have been your responsibility to pay for hernia surgery anyway. Retirees from good breeders are well taken care of & in good health. Their hair may be cut short or shaved & have staining, but they're basicly clean, well cared for & healthy. My Hannah had very short hair & lots of staining,but she was clean, healthy, wellcared for, & about 75% pottypad trained. I can't imagine a good breeder "selling" a retiree, I can't imagine a "good" breeder debarking their dogs. How awful. I'm so sorry, especially for little Candie.


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Im just so happy too see her little Tail wagging finally. She knows how much me and Chloe love her.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

I'm so sorry to hear this.

I'm sure your little one will come around. There isn't much that love can't fix :wub: :hugging:


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## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

OMG! That just broke my heart to read. Your poor baby went thru so much. I'm so happy that Candie has found a wonderful, caring, loving home. Just love and spoil her!


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi Matt, 
I'll identify her. The breeder is Divinity Maltese. 

I think you have misunderstood somewhere along the way, and I would rather try and address things honestly than do the "anonymous" route.  
I am so sorry you have had trouble with Candie adjusting! I had no idea it was still ongoing, but talked to Claudia today. 

I had Candie out with me at the park a few weeks before she came to live with you to do a temperament test outside of Claudia's house and her "comfort zone". (Claudia is my DH's mom).

She did really nicely for me, being exposed to new sights and sounds, including several big shepherds at a search and rescue training. I was really shocked that she took more than a couple of days to warm up to you - but I don't think she had ever been shipped, so I can't say what went through her mind then. 

The main concern I had was that it took me about 30 minutes to get her moving on a leash, but I had to wait it out for her to get interested in something. 

I think Claudia honestly forgot she was debarked- since she doesn't do that. She wasn't really noisy, as are many of the malts. Others are really noisy. Obviously if she didn't try to bark for two weeks - you can see why it wasn't noticeable 

As you may recall, Claudia was NOT Candie's breeder, she purchased her and was told she was debarked at some point. I don't recall if it was before or after she was brought home. I am in complete agreement with you that debarking is not necessary or right, although I find it interesting that states want to have mandatory genital mutilation (whole other post! LOL). But that isn't the dog's fault that a previous owner made a call I don't agree with. 

I forgot that you hadn't been to Claudia's house.  As probably anyone on the site who has been to her house can tell you, she does NOT debark her dogs. It just isn't necessary, but Candie was already that way when she came here. 

I have a super cute picture of Candie out at the park standing on a crate but I can't figure out how to get it off my cell phone... 

Is there anything else going on with her besides her teeth needing to be cleaned? The vet here said "mild tarter" I think which isn't serious. 

I know they haven't been cleaned since last July, and are due in July - but maybe that is more expensive in CA? Confused as is to what is going on, but would like more details if your vet has assessed her. Teeth are a serious concern IMHO, as they impact their eating and sense of smell. The vet who did Candie's hernia repair is a dental specialist, and I had one of my dog's getting a root canal the same day... 

Please keep me posted on how she is doing, and provide some more details. I am so sad she was scared in the first place to be there, and if you aren't happy with her for any reason - that is conveyed to the dog, they sense everything. 

Please give the "other" person you have been contacted by my direct contact information. I have assisted many Div Mal owners over the years with potty training, behavioral issues, etc. Far and above what most breeders of my breed (german shepherds) do, but it is cool when someone has success in the end. 

Claudia is ALWAYS willing to take back her dogs or any dog that has come through her home, which is why she requires a contract that states that the dog must be returned if you are ever unhappy. 

I offer the disclaimer (as always) that these are just my opinion as the "training" consultant for Div Mal, but I hate for anyone to have an opinion that could be changed with some open communication. 

Shannon 

p.s. Good for you for feeding raw! The malts I know on raw do SO well and have beautiful coats. Sadly, it isn't practical with more than a few...






> So I got a Maltese from a breeder who was a retired breeding dog. When I got her she was a mess in my opinion. Her face was stained and crusty, her teeth were god awful, and she was scared of EVERYTHING. The breeder told me she was great shape, happy, etc etc. She would flinch like I was going to hit her all the time. When I contacted the breeder about her teeth she goes... oh yeah if I would have taken care of that I would have raised the price. First off I paid 800 dollars for her which is a lot but second off I got sent a dog who had the worst teeth.
> 
> Now the part that just tears my heart out. For the last 2 weeks I have been working so hard on getting her to come around. Shes finally happy in the house now (though not potty trained like I was told!) but I heard her bark for the first time and I heard the mod god awful bark I had ever heard. I emailed the breeder and found out SHE WAS DEBARKED. I am so upset beyond words. My poor little baby. I think debarking is disgusting first of all but second its illegal in my state!
> 
> I don't know what to do I want half of my money back from this "breeder". I was also contacted by someone else who got a dog from her that told me that she is experiencing the exact same things I was. Being lied to. I will keep her anonymous as that was requested but what do I do. My poor baby her bark  I love that loud high pitched Maltese yelp and now I will forever be deprived of it :'([/B]


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## Julie718 (Feb 17, 2006)

I'm very sorry to hear about Candie.  I purchased both Tango & Tillie from Claudia and haven't had any problems at all. I can tell you from going to her house twice, that she does NOT debark her dogs. All you have to do is ring the doorbell to get proof of that! LOL. Claudia is a great lady and really cares about all of her Maltese. I hope you will contact her or take Shannon up on her offer to help you get Candie settled into her new home.


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## Gennel (Mar 24, 2006)

I'm so terribly sorry you got her with all these issues and all the lies. The debarking is the worst thing that breeder lied about  How could she think you would not find out ??? I must say she is beautiful.Even though you were expecting something totally different , I am glad that she ended up with you to be loved and cared for. 
Did you have any of these Lies she told you in writing? If you have anything in writing of what she promised you and you did not get it. Iwould consider taking her to small claims court. And if Debarking was done in an illegal state then I would deffinately sue her. She should not have been $800 in my opinion.But that's just me.



Gen


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Hi Matt,
> I'll identify her. The breeder is Divinity Maltese.
> 
> I think you have misunderstood somewhere along the way, and I would rather try and address things honestly than do the "anonymous" route.
> ...


i just can't help but throw my two cents in here. Shannon, I must commend you! Your post was so nicely written. We've had other situations like this here where an owner is sharing a negative opinion and the breeder appears here and posts ... gets VERY defensive and quite abrasive and nasty. This has happened more than once.

You, on the other hand, calmly explained the circumstances around the issues in question and speaking for myself, completely erased any negative thoughts about Divinity Maltese.

Kudos to you for being such a diplomatic and non-defensive person. :thmbup:


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

For what it is worth, I agree with Heidi's post on this, and would add that breeders should be willing to take back any dog that comes through their home (or kennel I guess, for those who have them). 

It is hard enough on adult dogs to transition to a new home (even when it is actually more fun for them I think in the end) without being somewhere it isn't working out. 

Is there an FAQ on what to look for and expect with retirees? I know puppies have an FAQ - but retirees would be helpful too. That would be great to share with potential new owners. 
I think we expect an older dog to automatically fit in, with little transition. I just recently got a two 1/2 year old female shepherd who was in a private home before coming to me. Totally potty trained. Still peed and pooped on my carpet in the first two weeks b/c she didn't know exactly what to do yet. It caught me off-guard for a moment, and I know better. I didn't do what I should have and give her limited access for a little while. Shepherd poop on the floor of your living room looks a lot bigger than it does outside!

I guess that is a totally separate thread. 

Shannon 




> As an FYI, for those that consider acquiring any retired Maltese (male or female) from a show breeder, generally speaking, no reputable breeder is going to charge more than the cost of spay + cost of teething cleaning. Depending on area will run anywhere from $500 - $1,000. However, it is always perfectly reasonable to request the vet records confirming any and all procedures prior to acquisition. Actually, I would always recommend the latter, and/or at the very least request the breeder's vet name and phone number with an agreed release of any vet records. In addition, it is my opinion (in particular) with a retired older dog the Breeder should be willing to re-aquire the dog from the person, should then new owner not believe it is working out well. Ultimately, this is in the best interest of the dog.
> 
> Heidi
> Aria Maltese[/B]


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Very well said Sher. I can not agree more. :yes: 

Thank you Shannon for clearing this matter up. :thmbup:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Shepherd poop on the floor of your living room looks a lot bigger than it does outside![/B]


I am sorry Shannon but I just got a good chuckle out of that one. :HistericalSmiley: I can only imagine. Thank God!! :w00t: :smheat:


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Thanks Sher & Becky 

It is always a sensitive subject because owners love their dogs, and usually the breeder or previous owner did too, and everything just runs at a high level of emotion. In the end, I believe in being an advocate for the dog, and trying to find the best solution for the dog in everything I do, maltese or GSD, or mix breeds. If you love dogs and get involved with dogs, inevitably there will be misunderstanding - but usually everyone's heart is in the right place. 

I love spoiledmaltese and tell everyone with a maltese that I see to come check it out. 

Shannon 




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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I had a girl shipped to me that was a year old and I vowed never to do that again! She left her breeder a confident loudmouth and arrived to me huddled at the back of her crate. She was scared to death and it took me a while to get her over that. But she is called Queen Caddy at my house and earns that name! She is still wary and timid in public situations though but gets over herself pretty quickly. I hope your little girl will be the same way. Caddy was scared to death of my husband when she first got here but boy, that didn't last long. Now she bugs him to death, it's rather amusing to watch, LOL. 

It might have been the pics, but the tearstaining didn't look too terribly bad, I've definitely seen worse! I sure hope your girl turns out to be everything you had hoped for! Post more pics, she is adorable!


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Bottom line is that so far everyone I have talked to has saying first off I paid too much, and second off that the teeth were the breeders responsibility.

Its not my problem that Candie needed hernia surgery or her teeth cleaned prior to me buying her. If Candie was sold she was suppose to be ready to go and worry free. In total (teeth cleaning is 300 dollars here in LA minimum I have found) I would have spent 800 for Candie 300 or Shipping and 300 for teeth. Thats 1200 dollars for a 4 year old Dog! Now like I said Candie ISNT GOING ANYWHERE. She is my princess and I love her. I am though very mad that very important issues were not disclosed to me, and nobody can disagree that her teeth not being cleaned and her debarking left out isnt a big deal, because it is to me. $1200 was the same amount of money as a Maltese richmaltese was offering me as a puppy and the same amount as a baby Biewer from a reputable Biewer Breeder.

Again Candie isnt going anywhere but I was not told everything whether it was out of sight out of mind (Claudia was wonderful during it all) but bottom line is that there were mistakes in this transaction and the only ones suffering are my poor baby and myself.


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

Panda, You are right. Whether there was an intent to deceive or not, it doesn't matter. The fact is that you weren't told everything you should have been in order to fairly guage the value and costs of your new baby. 

I don't think that the matter is "settled". I think that the breeder may be perfectly reputable, and if so I am sure she will want to work this out when you contact her. Good luck!


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## gizzy's mom (Jun 3, 2008)

Wow ! I can honestly say I have never heard of debarking ! Sounds cruel to me. I just dont understand I mean if you dont like a dog barking then dont get a dog :huh: unless its for a medical reason there is no excuse ! Im so glad you got her. She looks a gazzillion times happier :biggrin: . Best of luck.


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

> Bottom line is that so far everyone I have talked to has saying first off I paid too much, and second off that the teeth were the breeders responsibility.
> 
> Its not my problem that Candie needed hernia surgery or her teeth cleaned prior to me buying her. If Candie was sold she was suppose to be ready to go and worry free. In total (teeth cleaning is 300 dollars here in LA minimum I have found) I would have spent 800 for Candie 300 or Shipping and 300 for teeth. Thats 1200 dollars for a 4 year old Dog! Now like I said Candie ISNT GOING ANYWHERE. She is my princess and I love her. I am though very mad that very important issues were not disclosed to me, and nobody can disagree that her teeth not being cleaned and her debarking left out isnt a big deal, because it is to me. $1200 was the same amount of money as a Maltese richmaltese was offering me as a puppy and the same amount as a baby Biewer from a reputable Biewer Breeder.
> 
> Again Candie isnt going anywhere but I was not told everything whether it was out of sight out of mind (Claudia was wonderful during it all) but bottom line is that there were mistakes in this transaction and the only ones suffering are my poor baby and myself.[/B]


I can totally understand your frustration on your end. You feel that you were indeed lied to. In reality, it may not be the case. Things that one person is used to are the same things that don't seem to "need to be stated" by them. They don't realize it as being anything different. I would ask for vet reports, and if their vet has stated it is a "mild" case of tartar, could it be possible that your vet is exaggerating the condition (no offense meant, please don't take it as such)?
The fee for shipping is not something the seller is making anything off of. It is simply a necessity to get your fluff from beginning to end. And while you are spending the money, it isn't part of the "purchase." 
I wanted to mainly respond simply because I am amazed that someone on the sellers side was willing to come forth and "name" the seller and then (in my opinion) respectfully address some of your issues in an open forum. It takes alot of courage and strength to not get immediately defensive whether names are mentioned or not. With the amount of concern expressed in shannonb's post, I can not imagine Claudia not willing to work with you within reason.
While I do not know what has been said or written between the two parties, as no one other than the individuals know, I do think that this situation could very well be simple misunderstandings. And I sometimes feel people immediately think the worst of others when it just isn't the case.
Sorry, but this is my opinion. I also want to add that you can't compare the price (was it actually selling price, or the price of procedures needed in order to be adopted) of a retiree versus a new puppy, especially not a different breed. 

I want to wish you the best in regards to your new addition. There are issues any time things change for our fluffs and we must love them and take care of them and help them cope with those changes as best as they can. I do believe you have one happy-looking, little girl. I am also thrilled to see how much you love her as these fluffs deserve so much love!!!


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

> I can totally understand your frustration on your end. You feel that you were indeed lied to. In reality, it may not be the case. Things that one person is used to are the same things that don't seem to "need to be stated" by them. They don't realize it as being anything different. I would ask for vet reports, and if their vet has stated it is a "mild" case of tartar, could it be possible that your vet is exaggerating the condition (no offense meant, please don't take it as such)?
> The fee for shipping is not something the seller is making anything off of. It is simply a necessity to get your fluff from beginning to end. And while you are spending the money, it isn't part of the "purchase."
> I wanted to mainly respond simply because I am amazed that someone on the sellers side was willing to come forth and "name" the seller and then (in my opinion) respectfully address some of your issues in an open forum. It takes alot of courage and strength to not get immediately defensive whether names are mentioned or not. With the amount of concern expressed in shannonb's post, I can not imagine Claudia not willing to work with you within reason.
> While I do not know what has been said or written between the two parties, as no one other than the individuals know, I do think that this situation could very well be simple misunderstandings. And I sometimes feel people immediately think the worst of others when it just isn't the case.
> ...


 :goodpost: I really think this sounds like it was a terrible case of miscommunication. However, I really think that a person re-homing a dog should be a LOT more careful about telling everything they know about the dog. It's just in the dog's best intrest, if nothing else. I don't think that we should be so dismissive of the situation. Things happen, and people forget things, but Panda shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of that-- he was just here trying to do the right thing by a retired dog. I am sure that Claudia will probably be mortified at this ruckus and want to clear things up, at least from what I have heard.

Everything is going to work out eventually, and Candie is still getting a great home.


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## oiseaux (Feb 16, 2008)

> :goodpost: I really think this sounds like it was a terrible case of miscommunication. However, I really think that a person re-homing a dog should be a LOT more careful about telling everything they know about the dog. It's just in the dog's best intrest, if nothing else. I don't think that we should be so dismissive of the situation. Things happen, and people forget things, but Panda shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of that-- he was just here trying to do the right thing by a retired dog. I am sure that Claudia will probably be mortified at this ruckus and want to clear things up, at least from what I have heard.
> 
> Everything is going to work out eventually, and Candie is still getting a great home.[/B]


 :goodpost: Well said. I hope everything gets straightened out.


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

Wow. I'm so sorry this has happened. It sounds like a terrible situation. This sounds like things that happen in a BYB that are always condemned by everyone here. I don't know how not telling her about the debarking would fall into a "misunderstanding"? Or why a "reputable" breeder is selling a retired Maltese for someone else and not divulging that fact? The breeder knew of the debarking, sold the fluff, and just "forgot"? If reputable breeders don't "sell" their retirees, then why is this reputable breeder doing just that?

Maybe there are other facts that haven't come out here, but from what I'm reading, I am totally in agreement with Boosted Panda. I would be very upset as well. I have been keeping a very long list of reputable breeders so that when the time comes for a new fluff friend for Spring, I'll know where to go for a healthy, loving, beautiful pup. After reading all of this, I've taken this breeder off the list.

Good luck to you Boosted Panda in getting this all straightened out to your satisfaction. I'm so sorry you are going through this. :angry:


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I can totally understand your frustration on your end. You feel that you were indeed lied to. In reality, it may not be the case. Things that one person is used to are the same things that don't seem to "need to be stated" by them. They don't realize it as being anything different. I would ask for vet reports, and if their vet has stated it is a "mild" case of tartar, could it be possible that your vet is exaggerating the condition (no offense meant, please don't take it as such)?
> The fee for shipping is not something the seller is making anything off of. It is simply a necessity to get your fluff from beginning to end. And while you are spending the money, it isn't part of the "purchase."
> I wanted to mainly respond simply because I am amazed that someone on the sellers side was willing to come forth and "name" the seller and then (in my opinion) respectfully address some of your issues in an open forum. It takes alot of courage and strength to not get immediately defensive whether names are mentioned or not. With the amount of concern expressed in shannonb's post, I can not imagine Claudia not willing to work with you within reason.
> While I do not know what has been said or written between the two parties, as no one other than the individuals know, I do think that this situation could very well be simple misunderstandings. And I sometimes feel people immediately think the worst of others when it just isn't the case.
> ...


^^ Great post and great analysis of the situation! 

Boosted Panda... Just my .02 cents but if I were you I would move on. I really think it was a misunderstanding/miscommunication situation. It's great that Candie now has a home with you and it looks like she is starting to adjust too. I hope you can put this behind you and begin to enjoy your new baby. (I know it may be easier said than done!!)


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

It looks to me, too, like there was a lot of mis-communication going on here, intentional or not. Alot of us have had to learn a lesson the hard way in acquiring our dogs - but most end up loving our babies just the same (except for the Vet bills!!!!!). She's adorable and she's in good hands, I hope you get to spend several happy years together. 

Also, aren't retirees usually adopted out? Or is that only retired "Show Dogs"?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> It looks to me, too, like there was a lot of mis-communication going on here, intentional or not. Alot of us have had to learn a lesson the hard way in acquiring our dogs - but most end up loving our babies just the same (except for the Vet bills!!!!!). She's adorable and she's in good hands, I hope you get to spend several happy years together.
> 
> Also, aren't retirees usually adopted out? Or is that only retired "Show Dogs"?[/B]



Retirees are adopted out, but the new owner is expected to pay for the spay, updating vaccinations, usually a dental and the shipping. I think this is probably the $800 Boosted Panda spent.

It is shocking how often reputable show breeders debark their dogs. We had another member a few years ago get a retiree who had been debarked.

As far as potty training regression and being scared, I think that is to be expected with any adult dog who is rehomed. If I recall, Boosted Panda has Yorkies. Maltese are very sensitive, much different than Yorkies. As the mom of a rescue, I am sure Candie will settle in with time and patience.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I do want to add that when I sent Skye to Cathy last week to be shown he was a nervous wreck when he got there. I had someone fly with him so he was not left alone. But the transition into Cathy's home took him about a week. He did not bark for a week to be exact. And did not want to be part of the family. 

Could this be what Candie has gone through? I am not sure. But I do know that my Skye was very homesick. Due to the fact that he is just a tad spoiled.* NOT* a lot spoiled. 

What I am trying to point out is that maybe the reason Candie was so shy in the beginning is because she missed her family. She reminded me of one of the pictures I got of my baby the first day with Cathy in her first picture you posted. I was like you OP. I was worried sick. I did not know how he was going to adjust or if he was going to. But he did. And he is now barking and fitting in just fine. 

So maybe that is the same case here. That Claudia spoiled her, she was loved. And when she had to go into that crate for the flight she was mortified. Think about it. Wouldn't you be? Aren't you upset when you leave your family? I know I am. I cry like a baby for about an hour. 

I am not trying to point fingers in either direction. I just want to give you something else to think about. Especially about the way she acted when you first got her home. 

I have no doubts she will be well loved and very spoiled in your home. And I can appreciate your concern. But try to look at this from the breeders stand point please. Claudia is like I am about debarking obviously. It is something that we do not consider. But she can not control what had happened before Candie came to her. Just like you can not control what happened before she came to you. 

Best wishes to you and Candie for a happy and healthy future.


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

"It is shocking how often reputable show breeders debark their dogs. "

I've never heard of this debarking before, and I find it horrifying that reputable breeders would do such a thing. It just doesn't sound very reputable to me.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> "It is shocking how often reputable show breeders debark their dogs. "
> 
> I've never heard of this debarking before, and I find it horrifying that reputable breeders would do such a thing. It just doesn't sound very reputable to me.[/B]


Jeni, I hear of if all the time where I am at. I would* never* consider it. But breeders look at it like they have no choice. That either they debark or place the dog in a barn so to say. Sad that it has to get to that. But it is reality.


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

Thank you Becky for letting me know about that. :shocked: And the fact that you would never do such a thing tells me alot about you and Clabec. It is surely an eye opener for me though that you "hear of it all the time"! How is doing something like that "for the betterment of the breed"? So the breeder isn't "inconvenienced"?? That just has to alter the dog's psyche, wouldn't it?


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Thank you Becky for letting me know about that. :shocked: And the fact that you would never do such a thing tells me alot about you and Clabec. It is surely an eye opener for me though that you "hear of it all the time"! How is doing something like that "for the betterment of the breed"? So the breeder isn't "inconvenienced"?? That just has to alter the dog's psyche, wouldn't it?[/B]


In my opinion yes. Because the bark is a way a dog communicates. And I don't like the thought of it. But in Florida it is not against the law that I understand. So they do it to keep the noise down. :angry:


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## jazak (Feb 12, 2008)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=587716
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IMO if you don't like the noise a dog makes, to the point of physically altering them, then you are in the wrong business!! I would never consider anyone who debarks a dog as reputable. This is just my personal opinion.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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I totally agree with you Kelly. It is not right in my opinion. But I do hear of it. Sad but true.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I also understand about miscommunication
I also do this all the time :blink: then I go back and read it again and say oh lord
whats wrong with me  But debarking a dog I feel should definitely have been told .
That isn't something you overlook, even though, whats done is done, you love her and she is happy.
:wub:


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> But debarking a dog I feel should definitely have been told .
> That isn't something you overlook, even though, whats done is done, you love her and she is happy.
> :wub:[/B]



I agree. Several years ago, I had an "owner surrender" foster (Yorkie/Mix).

The owner, herself, had the dog debarked. Within the long application, of questions,
she never mentioned it. It took the little girl a couple of weeks before she barked.
It made me sick. The sound was so sad. Broke my heart. I was shocked. 

Don't get me wrong, it made no difference. I would rather have been told, and prepared,
as it hurt me, once I realized what the owner had done to this wee little thing.

This is something which needs to be known before hand. It should not be left out.
I've had several deaf dogs. I'm use to it, they were deaf coming in. I certainly wouldn't
forget they are deaf, and not make mention of it to the new owner.

In order for the doggies to reach their perfect forever home, it's extremely important to
mention EVERY detail. You don't want them tossed around.

I'm sure the OP was also upset, and shocked. I was, too, with mine.


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## gatiger40 (Jun 7, 2007)

It is amazing what I learn here on SM. I never even heard of de barking a dog. My God that is the most awful thing I have ever heard of. :new_shocked: 

Why would a breeder trying to better the breed do this? Don't breed if you don't think you can handle the noise. I know in this case it wasn't Divinity that did the de barking, but how sad not to pass such important information along to the new owner getting a retiree. 

Wow, if I were ever get a another Maltese pup that is one more thing on the list to make sure the breeder does not do in their breeding program. For an individual to have this done to a dog should be criminal. I think that de barking a dog is much worse than being a BYB in my opinion. Makes me ill.

I also don't understand getting a cat de-clawed, but I guess that's for another forum.


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Well I was told a few things.

#1 I was told AFTER I got the her that she didn't have any contact with any of the males in the house only women. Candie is scared of men in general except me now. Whenever someone comes over thats a man she runs and hides.

#2 Debarking is disgusting and I already got yelled at by someone because Candie barked at another dog and I was called a pig. I told her I bought her this way. I will forever have to explain myself about Candie. Debarking is not allowed in LA County without a medical reason.

#3 I was told she was great at baths. She horrid at bath. She runs and scratches and claws away.

#4 Candie is sweet, loving, and everything I could ever want in a dog. She loves me and she sleeps right by my head. When I come home at night her tail is wagging like crazy, and her and my Yorkie love each other. They are trouble together. There is no more trust issues here. Candie knows this is her house and she is loved here. She just has dispositions that weren't explained to me initially, and her debarking of course.

I know for a fact all the things that happened to me are the same things that people on my website get angry at. Reputable breeders make mistakes. This wasn't a misunderstanding, this was just Claudia forgetting to tell me important things. A Misunderstanding is when information is released to someone and not understood the way it was intended. The Teeth and Debarking where not told to me, therefore it is impossible for it to be a misunderstanding.

Teeth cleaning in LA County costs $300 dollars, plus I wanted $100 dollars to have my own additional exam work done on her by my vet. Thats half what I paid for her, and that's what I expect. Again, this was not a misunderstanding, this was just information I never received.

Claudia may be a wonderful person and a great breeder but she needs to show that now in a situation where she clearly dropped the ball. I will not suffer and Candie will not suffer, and I def. don't want legal action to get involved. My mom works for a very prominent attorney here in Long Beach and she his very upset and wants me to just forget this all and sue Claudia, but I want to give her a chance to right the situation. Claudia basically has told me she paid for the spay and hernia repair and the rest is my problem, oh and whoops shes debarked.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi Matt, 
Please contact me privately as previously requested. As I stated before, our goal is that you are happy with your dog. If you would like a refund, shoot me an email at shannon at divinitymaltese dog com and give me a chance to make things right rather than issuing a public lashing. You don't seem to be interested in solutions, you seem interested in drama. 

If you (or the rest of the group) would like each of these points addressed point by point, I can do that too. 

I will reiterate I don't believe in mutilating dogs. Not realizing that it was done was a mistake on Claudia's part, and she has admitted that completely. You were provided Candie's medical records for the two years she was with Claudia. The two years prior (she is 4), we were not provided vet records, including the debarking - so it wasn't on paper anywhere. If you want to beat someone up - you have the information on the person that debarked the dog... 

Please address me directly as invited rather than mudslinging in a public forum so we can reach a good resolution. No one who gets a dog from Claudia is ever told that "the rest is your problem". 

Shannon 
[email protected]




> Well I was told a few things.
> 
> Claudia may be a wonderful person and a great breeder but she needs to show that now in a situation where she clearly dropped the ball. I will not suffer and Candie will not suffer, and I def. don't want legal action to get involved. My mom works for a very prominent attorney here in Long Beach and she his very upset and wants me to just forget this all and sue Claudia, but I want to give her a chance to right the situation. Claudia basically has told me she paid for the spay and hernia repair and the rest is my problem, oh and whoops shes debarked.[/B]


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> "It is shocking how often reputable show breeders debark their dogs. "
> 
> I've never heard of this debarking before, and I find it horrifying that reputable breeders would do such a thing. It just doesn't sound very reputable to me.[/B]



Information on why breeders generally debark: I have not ever debarked a dog. However, I have considered it. If you are a show small hobby breeder and live in the suburbs as I do, one is often concerned with noise and noise abatement ordinances that can ultimately compel a small hobby breeder to move. The latter is very difficult for some, especially if they have children that attend schools in that area, and/or are esconced in their current dwelling and wish not to move as they are quite happy there. When there is a dog that is particular barky...basically barks constantly the neighbors can be more than just a little upset, which again for the hobby breeder can quickly become concerning even nerve wracking as you try very hard to keep the dogs relatively quiet, so as to not bring unnecessary attention to you or your hobby/dogs. As a result, the debarking option becomes a potential solution. 

Debarking has risks. 1) if not done well (and, it is my opinion it is often not done well) the dog can have increased scar tissue result that ultimately provides problems with swallowing, and/or procedures that require intubation at a later time. 2) no surgery is without risk period.

However, it is not that uncommon for some breeders and it is an individual/breeder's choice in consultation with their vet. 

Hopefully this provides some additional insight.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## gatiger40 (Jun 7, 2007)

Then as a small hobby breeder the issue of whether to embark on a breeding program in a residential neighborhood should be considered BEFORE starting the program. All the reasons under the sun for having a dog debarked would never be in the best interest of the dog, which is what a responsible breeder should be doing if they want to breed. IMO.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=587710
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Good Lord, this would not even be considered, in my eyes.

I live in a condo. There have been times I've had WAY too many Malts.
Debarking them??? NOPE, not an option. 

The thought of it sickens me. So, it seems this may be the norm, for
some breeders. I had no idea this thought would even cross their minds.

I would think, professional training would be of more help to the dog.
That's what I do. I don't debark them. 

I also kiss my neighbors' butt, and dogsit (free) for many of them. :HistericalSmiley:


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

I am not into debarking dogs, or declawing cats - but I am curious why many people support mandatory spay/ neuter laws, but are horrified at docking, cropping, and debarking?

Spaying and neutering dogs has just as many health problems and concerns as debarking (probably more) but people generally have no problem with that, and those that do are decried as crazies. :smpullhair: 

From the perspective of selling dogs, Divinity Maltese requires a s/n contract on all puppies and dogs that leave the premises- so I am *not * representing my mother-in-law on this issue for sure! 

But I personally will not live anywhere that REQUIRES me to alter my shepherds. There are too many health issues and I have never had an accidental breeding with intact animals in my house. I am a RESPONSIBLE person. If my female is spayed, it will be because I want to have it done, not because I am required to. 

So - what gives? Why is it shocking to debark (which is about convenience) but not to neuter or spay (which is about convenience)?

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but I don't understand why no upset on mutilating dogs genitals.....

Shannon 





> Good Lord, this would not even be considered, in my eyes.
> 
> I live in a condo. There have been times I've had WAY too many Malts.
> Debarking them??? NOPE, not an option.
> ...


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

IMO, debarking is cruel and selfish. If I every found out that a breeder ever debarked a dog I would run the other way and caution others to do the same. Dogs can be trained not to bark if the owners are willing to invest the time to train, and/or the money for professional training. 

My opinion is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just how I feel about debarking in general.


But :back2topic:


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> I am not into debarking dogs, or declawing cats - but I am curious why many people support mandatory spay/ neuter laws, but are horrified at docking, cropping, and debarking?
> 
> Spaying and neutering dogs has just as many health problems and concerns as debarking (probably more) but people generally have no problem with that, and those that do are decried as crazies. :smpullhair:
> 
> ...



Whoa!! "Mutilating dog's genitals"? Same thing as "debarking"??

And, no, I do not have mine spayed/neutered for convenience.

It's overpopulation, and overall health.


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

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Devil's advocate here: What of this scenario...you never have this issue...you are a good reputable breeder, clearly a good steward of the breed and honest and forthright. You produce healthy happy puppies. You either have 1 dog that will not stop barking and no one wishes to acquire said dog b/c of the same issue, or 2) a dog is returned to you and after months of being treated badly by the new owners it barks in fear constantly, but of course you still take it back b/c it is the right thing to do...do you close down your breeding program located in the suburbs b/c of this one dog, or do you consider other options 1) Debark 2) Euthanize - b/c the dog is seen as not adoptable. ??? I would debark. This is the very sad reality at times. Do you give up an entire life's work of breeding beautiful Maltese b/c of 1? Do you lose all of the work and effort you have brought forward b/c of the one? Do you you euthanize, b/c you can't place and if you can't place your neighbors will sue you? Or do you debark and provide full disclosure to any future party interested in the dog?

It's not as simple as you may believe. Breeder's must make very painful choices at time, but by and large do so with the clear motivation of what is ultimately in the best interest of the dog and potentially all of their Maltese.

There's always the ridiculous choice of a puppmill that live out in the stix if you will and breed in a horriffic way and they wouldn't even consider debarking if faced with this, not even humane euthanasia...use your imagination...it's not pretty. 

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

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Like I said before, dogs can be trained to stop barking. If an owner cares about the dog, they will invest the time and money to take the dog to a trainer and teach it not to bark. If they don't care to do that, then they should find someone who is willing to invest in the dog.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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LOL ~ Euthanize, Debark....Oh, for God's sake. I'll take the dogs.
I cannot imagine these are your choices. How lame is that?

Oh, and in the "best interest" of all my Maltese. I do not consider
euthanizing, nor debarking. I believe in proper health care, and TRAINING.


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## joe (Jan 5, 2003)

ok, this looks like it can get heated fast so I will say once, keep this civil

thanks


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

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Devil's advocate here: What of this scenario...you never have this issue...you are a good reputable breeder, clearly a good steward of the breed and honest and forthright. You produce healthy happy puppies. You either have 1 dog that will not stop barking and no one wishes to acquire said dog b/c of the same issue, or 2) a dog is returned to you and after months of being treated badly by the new owners it barks in fear constantly, but of course you still take it back b/c it is the right thing to do...do you close down your breeding program located in the suburbs b/c of this one dog, or do you consider other options 1) Debark 2) Euthanize - b/c the dog is seen as not adoptable. ??? I would debark. This is the very sad reality at times. Do you give up an entire life's work of breeding beautiful Maltese b/c of 1? Do you lose all of the work and effort you have brought forward b/c of the one? Do you you euthanize, b/c you can't place and if you can't place your neighbors will sue you? Or do you debark and provide full disclosure to any future party interested in the dog?

It's not as simple as you may believe. Breeder's must make very painful choices at time, but by and large do so with the clear motivation of what is ultimately in the best interest of the dog and potentially all of their Maltese.

There's always the ridiculous choice of a puppmill that live out in the stix if you will and breed in a horriffic way and they wouldn't even consider debarking if faced with this, not even humane euthanasia...use your imagination...it's not pretty. 

Heidi
Aria Maltese
[/B][/QUOTE]


Like I said before, dogs can be trained to stop barking. If an owner cares about the dog, they will invest the time and money to take the dog to a trainer and teach it not to bark. If they don't care to do that, then they should find someone who is willing to invest in the dog.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, training can help, but not always and the barking will encourage the others to bark too. I know a breeder personally that invested (after return of puppy badly treated) at least 3-4 thousand dollars on personal 1:1 training. Guess what? It still didn't work. These are the great exceptions, but they can happen. I believe before anyone rush to judgement you first understand the very specific circumstances of the case. Of course debarking as a solution to just make quiet a dog that perhaps just needs more 1:1 time, training, or whatever is not a solution. However, there are exceptions. 

Standing by what I said.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

I know I seem totally wacky on this (but I am okay with it if a couple of people at least read what the American Vet Association says)

It isn't better health neccesarily - and while wild dogs and feral cats certainly need population control - intelligient humans should be capable of keeping dogs from procreating in their home. There are significant health risks to spay/ neuter that perhaps people aren't fully aware of. 

In some countries in Europe - it is considered unethical to alter dogs without profound medical reason and there is a growing trend in the veterinary community here. 

An article recently appeared in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association on much the same subject. http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdfplus/1...vma.231.11.1665

A key conclusion of the AVMA article:
"Pets should be considered individually, with the understanding that for these pets, population control is a less important concern than is health of each animal." 

This is largely equivalent to the statement in Laura Sanborn's paper (http://saveourdogs.net/health.html) that also includes both the positives and negatives of s/n. 
"The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature."

The AVMA article lists the many adverse health affects associated with spay and neuter, including increased risks of bone cancer, prostate cancer, hemangiosarcoma, orthopedic disorders, hypothyroidism, urinary tract cancers, obesity, urinary incontinence, and adverse reactions to vaccines. As this AVMA article says, risks and benefits must be weighed against each other, on a case by case basis, with the needs of the individual patient determining the decision. 

Not a government mandate, not social pressure. 

It is because of PR that altering dogs is considering socially acceptable, while debarking, docking and cropping are frowned on. 

I am pro spay-neuter, but I think people should have all of the ramifications explained to them. 

Shannon 






> Whoa!! "Mutilating dog's genitals"? Same thing as "debarking"??
> 
> And, no, I do not have mine spayed/neutered for convenience.
> 
> It's overpopulation, and overall health.[/B]


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Who was Candie's original breeder? The one who had her debarked? 

I think debarking is aweful. I know a VERY well-known, top maltese breeder in Texas that debarks her dogs and that upset me so much when I found out. There is no purpose in debarking a dog except for selfish reasons. I have a yorkie with a very loud bark, and I tell her to hush pretty often but I would be so sad if she never barked again..and even sadder if I heard that aweful raspy bark of a debarked dog. Why would anyone debark a dog? If you can't handle barking, you shouldn't own a dog..and you certainly should not be breeding and showing them. Dogs bark! And second...even if a breeder was considering debarking, why would they do it knowing that most people find the practice cruel? Kindof negates them as being completely reputable in my opinion if they are debarking dogs. I know there is no perfect breeder and you have to weigh the good and the bad with each...but debarking is something NO breeder should be doing. It's disgusting.

And you can not even compare debarking to spaying/neutering. The health benefits and behavioral benefits of spaying/neutering FAR outweigh any possible negatives. Anyone pet owner that owns an intact animal is irresponsible in my opinion. The only dogs that should be intact are those being shown & bred or dogs that can not be spayed/neutered due to health issues that would kill them if put under anaesthesia. There is no other reason to own an intact animal. And I own yorkies so I'm all for tail docking (as newborn puppies)...an undocked tail on a yorkie ruins the neat appearance of the dog...and when done as a newborn, they really don't feel it or remember the procedure.


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

> Hi Matt,
> Please contact me privately as previously requested. As I stated before, our goal is that you are happy with your dog. If you would like a refund, shoot me an email at shannon at divinitymaltese dog com and give me a chance to make things right rather than issuing a public lashing. You don't seem to be interested in solutions, you seem interested in drama.[/B]


EXCUSE YOU!

I don't know who you think you are talking to. I will publically lash out all I want. I wasn't told the truth and I am not the only one Shannon. I have had multiple SM members PM me about issues with there DivinityMaltese dogs, they requested to remain anonymous though and thats there business.

I will NOT privately PM you because I have no idea who you are and your attitude sucks. I dealt with Claudia and shes who I will continue to deal with. I just can't believe how rude you are and it shows in your business practices obviously.

I want my money back, Candie is staying with me you have 48 hours to comply with this or I will seek legal council. Your attitude just ruined any chance of this going quietly.


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=587927
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Devil's advocate here: What of this scenario...you never have this issue...you are a good reputable breeder, clearly a good steward of the breed and honest and forthright. You produce healthy happy puppies. You either have 1 dog that will not stop barking and no one wishes to acquire said dog b/c of the same issue, or 2) a dog is returned to you and after months of being treated badly by the new owners it barks in fear constantly, but of course you still take it back b/c it is the right thing to do...do you close down your breeding program located in the suburbs b/c of this one dog, or do you consider other options 1) Debark 2) Euthanize - b/c the dog is seen as not adoptable. ??? I would debark. This is the very sad reality at times. Do you give up an entire life's work of breeding beautiful Maltese b/c of 1? Do you lose all of the work and effort you have brought forward b/c of the one? Do you you euthanize, b/c you can't place and if you can't place your neighbors will sue you? Or do you debark and provide full disclosure to any future party interested in the dog?

It's not as simple as you may believe. Breeder's must make very painful choices at time, but by and large do so with the clear motivation of what is ultimately in the best interest of the dog and potentially all of their Maltese.

There's always the ridiculous choice of a puppmill that live out in the stix if you will and breed in a horriffic way and they wouldn't even consider debarking if faced with this, not even humane euthanasia...use your imagination...it's not pretty. 

Heidi
Aria Maltese
[/B][/QUOTE]

LOL ~ Euthanize, Debark....Oh, for God's sake. I'll take the dogs.
I cannot imagine these are your choices. How lame is that?

Oh, and in the "best interest" of all my Maltese. I do not consider
euthanizing, nor debarking. I believe in proper health care, and TRAINING.
[/B][/QUOTE]

With all due respect, please read my posts carefully. I did not state "these are [my] choices". Without all requisite and relevant information it is unreasonable to pass judgemet in my opinion. There are in very rare circumstances, substantial exceptions - I would not judge without having heard all the facts. I realize you are a person who loves your pet and most breeders (myself included) love our Maltese (basically, they are like our children). Just as it would not be appropriate to take a strong position against a parent that may be faced with very difficult circumstances, I would ask you consider (just for a moment) the possiblity that because you have not been faced with an agonizing decision of how to approach what appears to be a most impossible problem, consider you have not "walked in that person's shoes".

To be clear, I have never debarked a dog of mine. As I stated above, I know breeders who have. These are excellent breeders and would expend substantial capital to attempt to resolve the solution. They debarked as an extreme exception in order to keep the dog and be able to continue to give back in amazing ways to the breed. I am going to emphasize again, these would be extreme exceptions - this is not an attempt to simply quiet a barking dog.

Heid
Aria Maltese


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

Just a general question that popped into my head as I've been reading along here.....

What is the difference between a small hobby breeder and a backyard breeder?


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Oh yeah and my poor dog can't growl so she snorts like a pig. My baby my poor baby. She will live a perfect life with me.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

I agree - in the end, there are always cases where extremes are neccessary. I know dogs who couldn't be trained to stop barking, and were rehomed, or euthanized. 

Some people don't like e-collars (electric - not Elizabethean LOL) but for some dogs, they keep them in a home rather than at the pound. So- what is right in your house, might not be right in mine. 
I don't like it that some people train their dogs to use potty pads - it seems wrong to me somehow that I feel like they miss going outside and puttering in the grass - but that isn't my call. 

In this case, (with Matt & Candie) I don't think Candie needed to be debarked - I never heard her bark while I worked with her) but I don't know the details of why the kennel that bred her had her debarked and it is a moot point from that perspective. 

Shannon 



> Yes, training can help, but not always and the barking will encourage the others to bark too. I know a breeder personally that invested (after return of puppy badly treated) at least 3-4 thousand dollars on personal 1:1 training. Guess what? It still didn't work. These are the great exceptions, but they can happen. I believe before anyone rush to judgement you first understand the very specific circumstances of the case. Of course debarking as a solution to just make quiet a dog that perhaps just needs more 1:1 time, training, or whatever is not a solution. However, there are exceptions.
> 
> Standing by what I said.
> 
> ...


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

> Oh yeah and my poor dog can't growl so she snorts like a pig. My baby my poor baby. She will live a perfect life with me.[/B]


I'm so sorry to read about your baby. I am completely sick just reading this thread. I'm glad she has you. :grouphug:


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

"To be clear, I have never debarked a dog of mine. As I stated above, I know breeders who have. These are excellent breeders ..."

Anyone who does such a thing would not fall under the category for me of "excellent breeder". I will definitely be adding this to my "Questions for Breeders" list and I can only hope that I will get an honest answer when the time comes.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

:eek2_gelb2: Oh Good lord this thread went far out :hysteric: 
I will not sit in judgement of any person or slam a breeder, what I am saying is you dont overlook
telling a person a dog was debarked, you don't forget something like that
I mean I am not the smartest apple in the bunch, but good god I would remember if my dog was debarked :blink: 
Do I agree with debarking , NO, but like I said I won't judge someone who has done it, I don't know why but it's done.
But I don't think anyone can sit here and say I forgot to tell him or her the dog was debarked
that s just nuts!!! :huh:


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> Just a general question that popped into my head as I've been reading along here.....
> 
> What is the difference between a small hobby breeder and a backyard breeder?[/B]



BYB: Buys Muffy at the pet shop and knows neighbor who owns Puffy (They also bought at a petshop). Neither owner has researched either dog's ancestry, indeed would be unable to if they attempted it. They care not of prevelant health issues in the breed (again, they are simply ignorant on the subject). They are uneducated with respect to the Breed Standard and could not tell you what the true characteristics of the breed are and perhaps more importantly speaked in an educated way with respect to structure, movement and temperament (e.g., should layback and degree of angle). They wish for their children to exprience the "miracle of birth" and as a result they breed Muffy to Puff and selll the offspring using a newpaper add for approximately $800 each. Spay/Neutering not required and they are not focused on whether this is a good match for the puppy in terms of home, as they are with getting their quick $800 and placing the puppy.

ShowBreeder-Hobby Breeder: They mentor under a master breeder for a minimum of 1-2 years. They complete substantial research and education to understand all aspects governing Maltese and their Standard. They develop an understanding of Type v. Style and identify Breeders they wish to acquire foundation Maltese - building blocks, if you will. They abide by the AMA ethics governing treatmet of Maltese, placement and work toward erradicating genetic defects within the breed with purpose and careful deliberation. The consistently finish their Maltese to their AKC Championship and frequently consult with other's to asess the best choice for Stud candidates. They can generally easily recite by memory their dog's ancestors and what attributes and faults each possesed. They breed with the goal of improving the breed first and foremost and when puppies become available, new homes are carefully screened for best matches. Puppies usually run around $1,800 (males) and $2,500 (females). They are always required to be spayed and neutered.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=587936
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL ~ Euthanize, Debark....Oh, for God's sake. I'll take the dogs.
I cannot imagine these are your choices. How lame is that?

Oh, and in the "best interest" of all my Maltese. I do not consider
euthanizing, nor debarking. I believe in proper health care, and TRAINING.
[/B][/QUOTE]

With all due respect, please read my posts carefully. I did not state "these are [my] choices". Without all requisite and relevant information it is unreasonable to pass judgemet in my opinion. There are in very rare circumstances, substantial exceptions - I would not judge without having heard all the facts. I realize you are a person who loves your pet and most breeders (myself included) love our Maltese (basically, they are like our children). Just as it would not be appropriate to take a strong position against a parent that may be faced with very difficult circumstances, I would ask you consider (just for a moment) the possiblity that because you have not been faced with an agonizing decision of how to approach what appears to be a most impossible problem, consider you have not "walked in that person's shoes".

To be clear, I have never debarked a dog of mine. As I stated above, I know breeders who have. These are excellent breeders and would expend substantial capital to attempt to resolve the solution. They debarked as an extreme exception in order to keep the dog and be able to continue to give back in amazing ways to the breed. I am going to emphasize again, these would be extreme exceptions - this is not an attempt to simply quiet a barking dog.

Heid
Aria Maltese

[/B][/QUOTE]

I HAVE walked in everyone's shoes. I have been thru so many
doggies, in my life-time. I must say, we have always made it work.
Without euthanization, without debarking. 

I suggest, to the breeders, to look into rescue organizations, before
you "jump the gun".

And, Joe, this will not get heated. 

Happy Birthday, Cap'n Joe.

I will now shut my trap :HistericalSmiley:


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> :eek2_gelb2: Oh Good lord this thread went far out :hysteric:
> I will not sit in judgement of any person or slam a breeder, what I am saying is you dont overlook
> telling a person a dog was debarked, you don't forget something like that
> I mean I am not the smartest apple in the bunch, but good god I would remember if my dog was debarked :blink:
> ...



I agree. Forgetting seems a bit odd. However, I suppose it is possible, but not likely - even if you weren't the person that debarked the dog. My 2 cents.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Matt (boosted panda, owner of yorkiechat.net? right?),

It is highly unusual to get a dog, then get a full refund without returning the dog. I'll be happy to ask Claudia to let you know it would be acceptable to interact with me. 

Based on your behavior here and unwillingness to give more information about Candie's current situation with input from your vet, etc in private email to me OR Claudia, I am not convinced you are interested in the welfare of the dog. 

Since you want to be public - if you will shoot me an email, or give Claudia a call, I will publically offer a full refund to you plus shipping costs to have the dog returned. That goes above and beyonf the contract. 

Also not really very cool to start threatening ultimatums, timelines and legal action on public forums. 

Not sure how you handle it on your site, but usually it is considered in bad taste to threaten to sue people in public. 

Shannon 



> EXCUSE YOU!
> 
> I don't know who you think you are talking to. I will publically lash out all I want. I wasn't told the truth and I am not the only one Shannon. I have had multiple SM members PM me about issues with there DivinityMaltese dogs, they requested to remain anonymous though and thats there business.
> 
> ...


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

Thank you so much for that answer Heidi. I appreciate it.

"They abide by the AMA ethics governing treatmet of Maltese" Does the AMA ethics say anything about debarking?


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Can I ask a really stupid stupid question?? :eek2_gelb2: 
Where is Claudia? Can she come here and maybe explian her side of it?


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Small hobby breeders are committed to having appropriate health certifications on their dogs and frequently spend thousands on training, showing, grooming, etc (and most importantly, not breeding dogs that don't turn out to be good examples of the breed). 

Backyard breeders breed whatever they have in the back yard (or house), but with less concern for the top quality of the dogs. 

Shannon 




> Just a general question that popped into my head as I've been reading along here.....
> 
> What is the difference between a small hobby breeder and a backyard breeder?[/B]


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=587945
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Devil's advocate here: What of this scenario...you never have this issue...you are a good reputable breeder, clearly a good steward of the breed and honest and forthright. You produce healthy happy puppies. You either have 1 dog that will not stop barking and no one wishes to acquire said dog b/c of the same issue, or 2) a dog is returned to you and after months of being treated badly by the new owners it barks in fear constantly, but of course you still take it back b/c it is the right thing to do...do you close down your breeding program located in the suburbs b/c of this one dog, or do you consider other options 1) Debark 2) Euthanize - b/c the dog is seen as not adoptable. ??? I would debark. This is the very sad reality at times. Do you give up an entire life's work of breeding beautiful Maltese b/c of 1? Do you lose all of the work and effort you have brought forward b/c of the one? Do you you euthanize, b/c you can't place and if you can't place your neighbors will sue you? Or do you debark and provide full disclosure to any future party interested in the dog?

It's not as simple as you may believe. Breeder's must make very painful choices at time, but by and large do so with the clear motivation of what is ultimately in the best interest of the dog and potentially all of their Maltese.

There's always the ridiculous choice of a puppmill that live out in the stix if you will and breed in a horriffic way and they wouldn't even consider debarking if faced with this, not even humane euthanasia...use your imagination...it's not pretty. 

Heidi
Aria Maltese
[/B][/QUOTE]

LOL ~ Euthanize, Debark....Oh, for God's sake. I'll take the dogs.
I cannot imagine these are your choices. How lame is that?

Oh, and in the "best interest" of all my Maltese. I do not consider
euthanizing, nor debarking. I believe in proper health care, and TRAINING.
[/B][/QUOTE]

With all due respect, please read my posts carefully. I did not state "these are [my] choices". Without all requisite and relevant information it is unreasonable to pass judgemet in my opinion. There are in very rare circumstances, substantial exceptions - I would not judge without having heard all the facts. I realize you are a person who loves your pet and most breeders (myself included) love our Maltese (basically, they are like our children). Just as it would not be appropriate to take a strong position against a parent that may be faced with very difficult circumstances, I would ask you consider (just for a moment) the possiblity that because you have not been faced with an agonizing decision of how to approach what appears to be a most impossible problem, consider you have not "walked in that person's shoes".

To be clear, I have never debarked a dog of mine. As I stated above, I know breeders who have. These are excellent breeders and would expend substantial capital to attempt to resolve the solution. They debarked as an extreme exception in order to keep the dog and be able to continue to give back in amazing ways to the breed. I am going to emphasize again, these would be extreme exceptions - this is not an attempt to simply quiet a barking dog.

Heid
Aria Maltese

[/B][/QUOTE]

I HAVE walked in everyone's shoes. I have been thru so many
doggies, in my life-time. I must say, we have always made it work.
Without euthanization, without debarking. 

I suggest, to the breeders, to look into rescue organizations, before
you "jump the gun".

And, Joe, this will not get heated. 

Happy Birthday, Cap'n Joe.

I will now shut my trap :HistericalSmiley:


Again, without all relevant information, do not believe it is reasonable to judge. This is my opinion. We can agree to disagree. With respect to the rescue organizations, the dog did not need rescue. The breeder did the ethical and responsible thing - they reacquired the dog after the people no longer wanted it and following its mistreatment. To place a dog in rescue was not an option in this case either. Again, to be clear, all available avenues were exhaused to no avail. Training, behaviorists, capital, all things were tried. They did not work. 

I don't see this as heated at all, Joe.  I see it as reasonable debated and hopefully, educational for some. Hey, Happy Bithday from me too.

Heidi
Aria Maltese
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

There are no stupid questions. 

She doesn't get on the message boards, but you can email her directly at [email protected]

She is devastated that Matt was previously so happy and that she screwed up and forgot about Candie. Hence the desire to try to fix it. 

Shannon 




> Can I ask a really stupid stupid question?? :eek2_gelb2:
> Where is Claudia? Can she come here and maybe explian her side of it? [/B]


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> Thank you so much for that answer Heidi. I appreciate it.
> 
> "They abide by the AMA ethics governing treatmet of Maltese" Does the AMA ethics say anything about debarking?[/B]



No, not to my knowledge. If a breeder in consultation with a vet are advised it is in the best interest of the dog to debark, they are in compliance with the ethical treatment of the dog.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

I have actually only heard one dog bark that has been debarked (a pom that was rescue) and I didn't hear a big difference over some of the raspier sounding toy dogs I have had. I don't know what Candie sounds like though (never heard her bark)... That is part of the reason Divinity Maltese is drastically reducing dogs and adopting out lots of retirees, I guess. 

OP has been offered a full refund plus shipping to return the dog and a gigantic apology. Can't re-bark the dog - so not sure what else can be done. 

Shannon 



> I agree. Forgetting seems a bit odd. However, I suppose it is possible, but not likely - even if you weren't the person that debarked the dog. My 2 cents.[/B]


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> "To be clear, I have never debarked a dog of mine. As I stated above, I know breeders who have. These are excellent breeders ..."
> 
> Anyone who does such a thing would not fall under the category for me of "excellent breeder". I will definitely be adding this to my "Questions for Breeders" list and I can only hope that I will get an honest answer when the time comes.[/B]


Hi.

I would ask if you cut excerpts from statements/quotes, you quote the entire passage. Taking a quote out of context provides misinformation to those that did not have the time to read the previous threads.

Thank you.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I am so confused, mixed up and feel awful for this dog
I do see both sides but I feel awful for Matt and it breaks my heart.
I think my next pet will be a hamster :smilie_daumenpos: 
Thanks for this informative thread though :smstarz:


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

> OP has been offered a full refund plus shipping to return the dog and a gigantic apology. Can't re-bark the dog - so not sure what else can be done.
> 
> Shannon[/B]


And then what. I'm very curious what will happen to the doggie if she is returned. I know its none of my business, but since all this has been posted on a public forum, I thought I would ask.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Reasonable question at this point. 

At this point, since we were told that she had problems transitioning, I would guess Claudia would not be comfortable shipping her for sure. I think Matt was originally going to pick her up by flying in to DFW, but that changed at the last minute. 

My mom (Claudia is my mom-in-law) has two older malts (both from Div Mal, one an owner return b/c the kids were too rough, and another a retiree from MaltAngel that Claudia had), and keeps saying she wants a third, so that is an option. I think Candie is a neat girl, so I'd like that. 

Shannon 



> And then what. I'm very curious what will happen to the doggie if she is returned. I know its none of my business, but since all this has been posted on a public forum, I thought I would ask.[/B]


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Im not returning Candie, hasn't she been through enough. 3 owners, her bark taken away, a 4 hour layover in plus her flight her initially, learning a new house and my other dog. Shes mine.

I want half the money back so I can get her teeth cleaned. Im not rich and I spent a lot of money on Candie. Plus I love her to death and I feel like shes received a new lease on life with me and my family.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Having been in the professional dog training arena as well as the veterinary arena, it is important to understand what tools you have available to address a problem with a dog. Firstly, using psychology (learning theory, behavioral studies with animals, etc.) to modify a behavior in a positive manner is the first choice. This requires an owner who is interested in putting the work in and a behaviorist or trainer who can educate them in how they should work with their dog to remedy the problem. Unfortunately, the world is not perfect. There are people who are not willing to work with their pets or who have pets with particularly difficult problems and no access (or no money to access) professional help. If it comes down to euthanizing a pet (and, for the record, pets surrendered to shelters with behavioral problems probably won't fair well at being adopted out) or using a tool that is not my first choice, I'm going to make a recommendation to keep that dog in a safe place where it can be loved. 

Debarking is a surgical procedure where the vocal cords are cut. It does not silence the dog, but reduces the "volume" of the bark. There are risks of scar tissue building up and causing problems with the dog breathing. It can also be difficult to intubate with the scar tissue increasing anesthetic risk. Many dogs will have their bark "return" or increase in volume as the vocal cords can heal back. The procedure is performed under anesthesia and only a veterinarian experienced with performing this procedure should do it. Would I do it to my dog? No. But I will not condemn people for doing it without knowing the story. They could have a puppy mill dog that had been passed through multiple homes and was on death row - euthanize or debark so it can be in a residential home. Not a tough choice IMO. While some of you may say "I'd take that dog, it doesn't have to die", there are not enough of you to save every dog unfortunately.


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

> Im not returning Candie, hasn't she been through enough. 3 owners, her bark taken away, a 4 hour layover in plus her flight her initially, learning a new house and my other dog. Shes mine.
> 
> I want half the money back so I can get her teeth cleaned. Im not rich and I spent a lot of money on Candie. Plus I love her to death and I feel like shes received a new lease on life with me and my family.[/B]


I'm so happy to hear you're going to keep her. :thumbsup: :grouphug:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Im not returning Candie, hasn't she been through enough. 3 owners, her bark taken away, a 4 hour layover in plus her flight her initially, learning a new house and my other dog. Shes mine.
> 
> I want half the money back so I can get her teeth cleaned. Im not rich and I spent a lot of money on Candie. Plus I love her to death and I feel like shes received a new lease on life with me and my family.[/B]


Matt I am sorry but don't you think this is a private matter that needs to be handled in private. Do you not realise that most breeder's read this forum or are in touch with one another. And that if you ever go to get another Maltese that you are burning those bridges. Sorry for what you have gone through. But this is a private matter especially when you are talking about money, not a public one. JMHO.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> Im not returning Candie, hasn't she been through enough. 3 owners, her bark taken away, a 4 hour layover in plus her flight her initially, learning a new house and my other dog. Shes mine.
> 
> I want half the money back so I can get her teeth cleaned. Im not rich and I spent a lot of money on Candie. Plus I love her to death and I feel like shes received a new lease on life with me and my family.[/B]


Best news I've read in this thread all afternoon...


:thmbup: :smilie_daumenpos: :dothewave: 



I feel this thread needs some lightening up, so lets do the way for a while.


:dothewave:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=587989
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Steve don't you mean wave not way?? :Happy_Dance: :walklikeanegyptian: :Happy_Dance: 

:dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave: :dothewave:


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

> Having been in the professional dog training arena as well as the veterinary arena, it is important to understand what tools you have available to address a problem with a dog. Firstly, using psychology (learning theory, behavioral studies with animals, etc.) to modify a behavior in a positive manner is the first choice. This requires an owner who is interested in putting the work in and a behaviorist or trainer who can educate them in how they should work with their dog to remedy the problem. Unfortunately, the world is not perfect. There are people who are not willing to work with their pets or who have pets with particularly difficult problems and no access (or no money to access) professional help. If it comes down to euthanizing a pet (and, for the record, pets surrendered to shelters with behavioral problems probably won't fair well at being adopted out) or using a tool that is not my first choice, I'm going to make a recommendation to keep that dog in a safe place where it can be loved.
> 
> Debarking is a surgical procedure where the vocal cords are cut. It does not silence the dog, but reduces the "volume" of the bark. There are risks of scar tissue building up and causing problems with the dog breathing. It can also be difficult to intubate with the scar tissue increasing anesthetic risk. Many dogs will have their bark "return" or increase in volume as the vocal cords can heal back. The procedure is performed under anesthesia and only a veterinarian experienced with performing this procedure should do it. Would I do it to my dog? No. But I will not condemn people for doing it without knowing the story. They could have a puppy mill dog that had been passed through multiple homes and was on death row - euthanize or debark so it can be in a residential home. Not a tough choice IMO. While some of you may say "I'd take that dog, it doesn't have to die", there are not enough of you to save every dog unfortunately.[/B]


Thank you, Jackie. Well stated.

Heidi


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

and now I find out I'm brain dead from trying to read this thread... :HistericalSmiley:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> and now I find out I'm brain dead from trying to read this thread... :HistericalSmiley:[/B]


But we don't have a brain dead smiley yet. You need to be something else..... :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=588007
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I'm going to work on one...


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=588008
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I thought about it after I posted. Maybe this one will work. Because if you pull your hair long enough your brain is bound to be dead from the pain. Right?? :smpullhair: :smpullhair: :smpullhair:


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> Debarking is a surgical procedure where the vocal cords are cut. It does not silence the dog, but reduces the "volume" of the bark. There are risks of scar tissue building up and causing problems with the dog breathing. It can also be difficult to intubate with the scar tissue increasing anesthetic risk. Many dogs will have their bark "return" or increase in volume as the vocal cords can heal back. The procedure is performed under anesthesia and only a veterinarian experienced with performing this procedure should do it. Would I do it to my dog? No. But I will not condemn people for doing it without knowing the story. They could have a puppy mill dog that had been passed through multiple homes and was on death row - euthanize or debark so it can be in a residential home. Not a tough choice IMO. While some of you may say "I'd take that dog, it doesn't have to die", there are not enough of you to save every dog unfortunately.[/B]



I've tried to stay out of the serious portion of this thread... but against my better judgement, I am going to jump in here.


I believe that Frisky's vocal chords have been snipped... She tries to bark, but only a very pittyful sound comes out. I've thought about asking the vet to check them, but then I decided I did not really want to know. I've always thought I could never have this done to a dog under my care...and I guess that is still how I feel. However, Frisky herself does cause me to rethink that a little.

This is the rescue girl who is pretty high strung and circles to the left for as long as an hour or more whenever she is in the least bit excited. She is bad enough that we have found it is very difficult to impossible to get her attention during the mornings. It goes without saying that training is a real challenge. She simply has so much energy she can do nothing but circle... We have tried some things, but so far, I do not have a lot of hope that she will ever be able to change her behavior. Us working during the day makes it even harder to try and work with her... so we are taking her to the NMR picnic and will turn her over to a retired rescue lady and her husband and keep our fingers crossed.

Anyway... my point is, while I do not agree with the idea of debarking, I can still see both sides of the issue as I can only imagine that Frisky was as compulsive about the barking as she is the circling...

In my continuing efforts to hijack this thread, I would ask that everyone say a little prayer for her so perhaps she can learn to have a little peace and relaxation in her life.


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

> Im not returning Candie, hasn't she been through enough. 3 owners, her bark taken away, a 4 hour layover in plus her flight her initially, learning a new house and my other dog. Shes mine.
> 
> I want half the money back so I can get her teeth cleaned. Im not rich and I spent a lot of money on Candie. Plus I love her to death and I feel like shes received a new lease on life with me and my family.[/B]


 :aktion033: I'm so glad you'll be keeping Candie. Her future seems much brighter than her past. Hope you & the former owner will be able to work this out.


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=587989
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Private matter? The community needs to know whats going on. If other breeders are reading this and they think I am a bad person for treating my DOG like a CREATURE OF GOD and not some thing than thats there problem and I would never want a dog from them. 

Shannon you're extremely rude first off. Stop treating me like I am being unresponsive. Your last PM to me made me laugh because you are threatening me with SM TOS. Comical. I did nothing wrong here and shouldn't be treated like I did. I bought a Maltese that was 4 years old and was in great condition. I got a dog with a tartar all over her teeth, can't bark, and snorts like a pig. This isn't my first Maltese either don't forget.


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## Boosted Panda (May 6, 2008)

Also yes my dogs do get there teeth cleaned annually, however Ive never had to clean a dogs teeth that I just purchased.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Thanks Becky 

I have PMd Matt to ask him to take it private, since I would guess that talking $$ on dogs is outside of the TOS. 

Shannon 




> Matt I am sorry but don't you think this is a private matter that needs to be handled in private. Do you not realise that most breeder's read this forum or are in touch with one another. And that if you ever go to get another Maltese that you are burning those bridges. Sorry for what you have gone through. But this is a private matter especially when you are talking about money, not a public one. JMHO.[/B]


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

Ok folks... I am closing this thread.


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