# Breeders' Unique "Looks"?



## Guest

I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself. 

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.

As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?


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## ilovemymaltese

I think it's important if your a picky person.(like me LOL) My favorite "look" in malts are tiny faces and big, round, eyes. With a petite frame and gorgeous coat. Kind of like my Gigi...lol...she is not from a top breeder but she is perfect for me. 

Unfortunately, the breeder I got Gigi from will have been retired by the time I am ready for another malt. And the only breeder that I really love is in another country. LOL Soooo I already made up my mind that I will be getting a malt from them in the future. :biggrin: I'm like this with a lot of different breed "looks". I always like the breeders in other countries! :w00t: 

But when I think when puppy searching, you will know in your heart that that puppy belongs to you. :wub2:


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## dr.jaimie

there is a thread somewhere on where did ur malt come from. it has pics of malts and their breeders. maybe that will help u. when i was looking i looked at puppy pics from present and past from certain breeders to see if they had a consistant look to their maltese


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## Cosy

I think it's important to know that all breeders get different types of looks within their own programs. Not all are cutesy
faces, even in Bonnie's program. Some are larger, etc. You have to decide what type you are looking for and then ask
breeders if they do indeed have this type available. I hope this makes sense to you.


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## mom2bijou

What makes SM so great is that so many of us have different malts from a variety of breeders so you are able to see the varying looks right here on this forum. While each breeder has a look there can still be differences as Brit stated. For instance, my Benny has the characteristic Chrisman look...big eyes, round face/body and bear paws but he is definitely not as smalll as other Chrismans on this forum. Same thing with Emma...she has the smaller features of Maecris malts but she is bigger than other Marcris malts that I have seen. I think you can get a general idea of what your malt will look like and how big they will be depending on the breeder and if you have seen what the parents look like, but there can definitely be differences in their looks. 

I think you are looking at 2 great breeders with absolutely beautiful malts!


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## princessre

I think alot of us focus much more on the face in looking at our Malts and in our discussion of the breeders' "look", whereas that is only one component out of a few that the show breeders are looking for (i.e. they care alot about structure, which is just about irrelevant to a lot of Malt loving pet owners) 

Brit makes such a great point about differences in look in a breeder's program, and even in a single litter. With that being said, I'm interested in this too  ...*I know nothing * a/b this (to point out the obvious), so I'll just compile the things ppl have made along w/ some wild guesses and please feel free to correct and add:

Warning: These are GENERALIZATIONS!! Exceptions frequently exist! 
Bonnie's Angel: Baby doll heads, smaller side of standard, smaller features
Chrisman: Bigger, rounder eyes, round bear paws
Rhapsody: I think I've heard Rhapsody has gorgeous coats?, tends to be on the larger side of standard
Marcris: Baby doll heads, smaller side of standard, smaller features
Jacob Maltese: Gorgeous faces 
Tajon: Moderate head, moderate nose?? (what do you call it when a nose doesn't stick out as much from the face?)

:smhelp: Again, apologies as I am fully aware my knowledge is next to nil and guesses rather 1/2 arsed. I'd be interested in knowing the "look" of the following too:
Divine:
Richelieu:
Midi's:
Josymir:


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## godiva goddess

^^^ while well established famous breeders have a consistent "look" there is no way any breeder can guarantee the look of every single dog. Just like humans, genetics only can go so far. Appearance is more of probability- I have seen dogs that don't bear the typical look in famous breeders. But I think the overwelming benefit of going with a reputable breeder is the expectation that your dog will be healthy and have a great chance to resemble that signature "look". 

I would like to make some clarification with regards to Chrisman. Chris had told me personally that his dogs are on the smaller end of the standard. In additon, he has told me that he feels Mia is a good representation of his dogs, and what his pup should look like. Mia is full grown, true 4 pound, she has enormous round eyes, small round face, round bear paws, and a beautiful, easily manageable coat. She hardly tangles. In my opinion, she has a doll face, which is also what Chris has referred. 

I think Brit's post said it best. I wish I can quote but I'm typing on my iPhone and I can't quote. Lol. Brit, I total agree w/ what you wrote and you said it much succintly than I!


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## princessre

Sorry, Alice! I didn't realize Chrisman bred on the small side. My bad! I must just have been working off the weight of all the Chrisman Malts on SM... 

To me, Chrisman faces look more like stuffed animals (very scientific) because they seem small and more round. Angel and Marcris faces look more like baby dolls because they are small and almost wide, like if they were people they would have no chin LOL. Maybe I should stop generalizing- people are going to get mad!! I don't mean anything bad- Chrisman pups are gorgeous!


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## Nikki's Mom

I think that a "look" you like is important, but I think that personality is more important when looking for a puppy. I didn't know all of Nikki's ancestry until I got her AKC papers. Nikki's bloodline is very good (CH for several generations) and that's nice to know. Janet has some gorgeous dogs. 

I wanted a dog within the breed standard for weight and a laid back personality, because we travel a lot. I love Nikki's looks, but more importantly, her personality is exactly what I wanted in a dog, and Janet matched us up perfectly. 


Whether you get a dog from a so-called "top breeder," or a rescue from the pound, meshing with the dog's temperament/personality is very important.


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jun 24 2009, 10:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796178


> I think that a "look" you like is important, but I think that personality is more important when looking for a puppy. I didn't know all of Nikki's ancestry until I got her AKC papers. Nikki's bloodline is very good (CH for several generations) and that's nice to know. Janet has some gorgeous dogs.
> 
> I wanted a dog within the breed standard for weight and a laid back personality, because we travel a lot. I love Nikki's looks, but more importantly, her personality is exactly what I wanted in a dog, and Janet matched us up perfectly.
> 
> 
> Whether you get a dog from a so-called "top breeder," or a rescue from the pound, meshing with the dog's temperament/personality is very important.[/B]



I couldn't agree more. The personality is much more important than the packaging to me.

Lady is a poorly bred rescue from a BYB, but her sweet and mellow personality is A+. Although she has a laundry list of health problems, I honestly couldn't name one disposition or training issue I have ever had with her.


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## k/c mom

I agree about temperament... that will really overshadow looks on a day-to-day basis. Tonia gave me all sorts of details about Claire but when she said something about Claire's personality being as good as her breeding program produces... that is what sold me. A good coat is a top priority for me but still below temperament.


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## littlemissy

I like all maltese but for myself I prefer babydoll face with shorter muzzle, large round eyes with excellent black halos and dark pigment and a petite on the smaller side of the standard frame. I just so happened to get ALL of that in Coquette. I would have loved her no matter what as to me looks *and *personality go hand in hand and her personality is a perfect match too. I cannot identify any breeders dogs except sometimes Bonnie Palmer's Angels. This site has a wealth of variety as mentioned above and lots of pics so enjoy. It helps to look at the features of the adult champions, etc on the breeders site but I like the kind of pics you find here at SM with all the beauties in their new homes.


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## princessre

QUOTE (littlemissy @ Jun 24 2009, 11:27 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796198


> I like all maltese but for myself I prefer babydoll face with shorter muzzle, large round eyes with excellent black halos and dark pigment and a petite on the smaller side of the standard frame. I just so happened to get ALL of that in Coquette. I would have loved her no matter what as to me looks *and *personality go hand in hand and her personality is a perfect match too. I cannot identify any breeders dogs except sometimes Bonnie Palmer's Angels. This site has a wealth of variety as mentioned above and lots of pics so enjoy. It helps to look at the features of the adult champions, etc on the breeders site but I like the kind of pics you find here at SM with all the beauties in their new homes.[/B]


Coquette is absolutely gorgeous.


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## godiva goddess

^^Sophia, please don't worry, I didn't think anything negative of your descriptions! I totally get how you derived your impressions too. I made clarification only b/c I had this particular conversation with Chris and he conveyed to me the look he strives for. Honestly, I think your description on the whole is quite good, I do think Chrisman look like stuffed animals, and Bonnies angles defintely have the most beautiful baby doll faces, and bonnies angels are very consistent, which love and admire!! It is very hard to maintain consistency!

Sometimes with appearance descripions it's hard bc it is subjective. It is similar to individual taste.


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## CloudClan

QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 24 2009, 08:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796159


> I think alot of us focus much more on the face in looking at our Malts and in our discussion of the breeders' "look", whereas that is only one component out of a few that the show breeders are looking for (i.e. they care alot about structure, which is just about irrelevant to a lot of Malt loving pet owners)
> 
> Brit makes such a great point about differences in look in a breeder's program, and even in a single litter. With that being said, I'm interested in this too  ...*I know nothing * a/b this (to point out the obvious), so I'll just compile the things ppl have made along w/ some wild guesses and please feel free to correct and add:
> 
> Warning: These are GENERALIZATIONS!! Exceptions frequently exist!
> Bonnie's Angel: Baby doll heads, smaller side of standard, smaller features
> Chrisman: Bigger, rounder eyes, round bear paws
> Rhapsody: I think I've heard Rhapsody has gorgeous coats?, tends to be on the larger side of standard
> Marcris: Baby doll heads, smaller side of standard, smaller features
> Jacob Maltese: Gorgeous faces, Don't kill me but I heard Debbie doesn't focus as much on structure- is this true?
> Tajon: Moderate head, moderate nose?? (what do you call it when a nose doesn't stick out as much from the face?)[/B]


LOL, I won't "kill" you, especially since you said that Jacob Maltese have gorgeous faces and I have to agree.  But I will also have to disagree on the other point you have heard. Debbie talked a lot with me about the structure she is trying to achieve in her dogs and Cadeau is a very balanced and well-structured maltese, as are the other dogs I have personally met in her breeding program. For example, Cadeau has a nice level topline, nice front and rear, great tailset. He is cobby (square) with a nice rib spring. :biggrin: And of course he has a goregous head/face. :wub: He has faults as well and I have tried to learn more about them so that I can understand what judges might see when they evaluate him compared to other dogs, but all dogs do. Breeder/owner/handlers work very hard to make sure they produce something truly worthy and competitive for the ring. In the ring, structure is often king. When you are a breeder/owner/handler (like Debbie) showing your own dogs against the big name professional handlers you really have to be showing the best you can, as that is the only way you can beat the pros.


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## CloudClan

QUOTE (wsun6 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=795984


> I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.
> 
> As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?[/B]


After admring Josy's current show boy Turner at a show I asked her to define what she looks for in the breed and this is what she told me:

_" I like a wide, flat skull with a extra big round eye. That is my style ... I like a good 5 to 5 lb dog. I don't like them little and squirly. I like a dog with substance that you can play with and that looks happy and healthy not ready for a nap." _

You can also get an idea about what kind of dogs a breeder produces by looking back at the pedigrees of their dogs. Turner is a nice example of Josy's line, and if you look at his pedigree you can see a lot of influence from Chrisman, plus the added element of Thriller (Marcirs, Rhapsody). 

Taking the dogs you know from certain lines in pedigrees and looking at how another breeder has used them can help you get ideas about what style they are targeting.


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## princessre

Wow, this is getting interesting! Thanks for correcting me! I actually heard the thing about Jacob Maltese from another breeder (definitely not Bonnie who doesn't ever badmouth or even mention other breeders...). 

So what is topline. What makes a nice tailset. What is a nice front and rear. What is a good rib spring. Please describe. I'm truly interested! (Have always thought Casanova has a <strike>big</strike> prominent and high butt. Does that make his rear good or not?  ) Thanks!!!


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796209


> QUOTE (wsun6 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=795984





> I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.
> 
> As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?[/B]


After admring Josy's current show boy Turner at a show I asked her to define what she looks for in the breed and this is what she told me:

_" I like a wide, flat skull with a extra big round eye. That is my style ... I like a good 5 to 5 lb dog. I don't like them little and squirly. I like a dog with substance that you can play with and that looks happy and healthy not ready for a nap." _

You can also get an idea about what kind of dogs a breeder produces by looking back at the pedigrees of their dogs. Turner is a nice example of Josy's line, and if you look at his pedigree you can see a lot of influence from Chrisman, plus the added element of Thriller (Marcirs, Rhapsody, Divine). 

Taking the dogs you know from certain lines in pedigrees and looking at how another breeder has used them can help you get ideas about what style they are targeting.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I just love Josy's Maltese. They are #1 in my book. I like the fact that she breeds for a substantial 5-5.5 pound size. I like a Malt on the higher end of the standard.

I love her Holly. I have already told Josy I want her if and when she ever retires her!

http://www.josymirmaltese.com/showing/Holly.htm


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 08:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796206


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 24 2009, 08:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796159





> I think alot of us focus much more on the face in looking at our Malts and in our discussion of the breeders' "look", whereas that is only one component out of a few that the show breeders are looking for (i.e. they care alot about structure, which is just about irrelevant to a lot of Malt loving pet owners)
> 
> Brit makes such a great point about differences in look in a breeder's program, and even in a single litter. With that being said, I'm interested in this too  ...*I know nothing * a/b this (to point out the obvious), so I'll just compile the things ppl have made along w/ some wild guesses and please feel free to correct and add:
> 
> Warning: These are GENERALIZATIONS!! Exceptions frequently exist!
> Bonnie's Angel: Baby doll heads, smaller side of standard, smaller features
> Chrisman: Bigger, rounder eyes, round bear paws
> Rhapsody: I think I've heard Rhapsody has gorgeous coats?, tends to be on the larger side of standard
> Marcris: Baby doll heads, smaller side of standard, smaller features
> Jacob Maltese: Gorgeous faces, Don't kill me but I heard Debbie doesn't focus as much on structure- is this true?
> Tajon: Moderate head, moderate nose?? (what do you call it when a nose doesn't stick out as much from the face?)[/B]


LOL, I won't "kill" you, especially since you said that Jacob Maltese have gorgeous faces and I have to agree.  But I will also have to disagree on the other point you have heard. Debbie talked a lot with me about the structure she is trying to achieve in her dogs and Cadeau is a very balanced and well-structured maltese, as are the other dogs I have personally met in her breeding program. For example, Cadeau has a nice level topline, nice front and rear, great tailset. He is cobby (square) with a nice rib spring. :biggrin: And of course he has a goregous head/face. :wub: He has faults as well and I have tried to learn more about them so that I can understand what judges might see when they evaluate him compared to other dogs, but all dogs do. Breeder/owner/handlers work very hard to make sure they produce something truly worthy and competitive for the ring. In the ring, structure is often king. When you are a breeder/owner/handler showing your own dogs against the big name professional handlers you really have to be showing the best you can, as that is the only way you can beat the pros.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have to agree with Carina. I have heard so many times that a dog can't walk on their beautiful head and I wholeheartedly agree. As much as I love a pretty face, give me nice structure any day and I'll be more than happy (but will still be wanting that pretty head and awesome structure). 

Any breeder who wants to win in the show ring will always pay attention to structure, bottom line. So to say otherwise (even in hearsay?) Well, I actually can't believe I just read this, LOL. Especialy when lumping dogs kept for show and puppies that are petted out in the same generalization. 

As for wanting to see the different 'looks', the thread of 'where did you get your dog' is a good one and speaks volumes. :thumbsup:


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## littlemissy

QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 24 2009, 10:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796201


> QUOTE (littlemissy @ Jun 24 2009, 11:27 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796198





> I like all maltese but for myself I prefer babydoll face with shorter muzzle, large round eyes with excellent black halos and dark pigment and a petite on the smaller side of the standard frame. I just so happened to get ALL of that in Coquette. I would have loved her no matter what as to me looks *and *personality go hand in hand and her personality is a perfect match too. I cannot identify any breeders dogs except sometimes Bonnie Palmer's Angels. This site has a wealth of variety as mentioned above and lots of pics so enjoy. It helps to look at the features of the adult champions, etc on the breeders site but I like the kind of pics you find here at SM with all the beauties in their new homes.[/B]


Coquette is absolutely gorgeous.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Coquette is blushing ans says thank you :Flowers 2: LOL
I can't tell you how many times I smile when I see Casanova in your sig- he is gorgeous and he looks like he is smiling back in one of his pictures- what a sweet angel.


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## CloudClan

QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 24 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796210


> So what is topline. What makes a nice tailset. What is a nice front and rear. What is a good rib spring. Please describe. I'm truly interested! (Have always thought Casanova has a <strike>big</strike> prominent and high butt. Does that make his rear good or not?  ) Thanks!!![/B]


I hesistate to give answers to these questions because I am still new to this and not articulate enough about it to be a great authority on what makes the ideal for each of these things.  I am sure that someone else could come along and give a much better description. 

But I will try: 

The topline is the spine from the back of the neck to the root of the tail. It should be level. In other words you shouldn't see a dip or a hump or a rise on one side or another. Cadeau's is nice and level, but he has a tendency to scrunch up. Still, when he is moving his topline stays level and this is key. Also, when showing a Maltese we try to make sure that we do a very straight part on the fur across the topline because a bad part can make a topline look bad even if it isn't. LOL, and from what I understand the pros know how to use the hair to make a bad topline look good. 

The tailset is when the tail is up over the back with the tip coming down to the side. Some dogs have what is called a flag tail where the tail portion sticks kind of straight up or some dogs will have a pig tail where it is curled incorrectly. Again, good handlers are skilled at hiding these faults. 

Front and rear is the assembly of the legs. You want a nice straight front. The legs should not be turned in or out or bowed in or out. In the rear you want to see the legs coming down in a nice parallel arrangement, but also correcly angled with the hocks behind the butt. 

Good rib spring means the rib cage has plenty of room to hold all the important stuff. LOL. Some dogs have too narrow a rib spring. Some dogs have too wide of one. I have felt it both ways. If you feel the ribs they should be nice and proportional. 

To me that is the key word in the Maltese structure--proportion or balance. These are what I think makes the ideal show Maltese. Of course, all Maltese need nice temperments, lovely white silky coats, beautiful faces and healthy systems. 

There is a link that does one of the best jobs explaining this stuff I have seen. It is:http://www.dogworld.co.za/breed_focus/Malt...breed_focus.htm k:


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## princessre

Wow, that is so interesting! Thanks so much for the description!! I never realized all those other things were being looked at. 

So I guess the face on the Malt is only like 10% or 20% of what makes a show dog stunning?! But like so many champions are stunning in their face, so does that mean there are alot of dogs entered in shows with great structure and great face, so the champions usually have everything? Will a dog with perfect structure and good face always win over a dog with Good structure but stunning face? 

And here I thought the front was the face and the rear was the baby got booty :smrofl: I was going to surmise that Casanova has a small "front to rear" ratio haahaha.


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## LUCY N PETS

Well I have to say that I think Casanova's face and booty is just perfect to me. Love his face and everyone else loves all of him as well. :wub: :wub: :wub:


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## princessre

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 12:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796221


> There is a link that does one of the best jobs explaining this stuff I have seen. It is:http://www.dogworld.co.za/breed_focus/Malt...breed_focus.htm k:[/B]


Awesome link! I'm learning so much from this...Thanks! I'm sure I'll be like a first-year med student with this link....

QUOTE (LUCY N PETS @ Jun 24 2009, 12:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796228


> Well I have to say that I think Casanova's face and booty is just perfect to me. Love his face and everyone else loves all of him as well. :wub: :wub: :wub:[/B]


Aww....thanks so much! That's awful sweet of you!


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## Guest

Thanks for all your help everyone! 

Maltese are much more complicated then I thought, this was very informative.


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## The A Team

QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 24 2009, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796236


> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 12:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796221





> There is a link that does one of the best jobs explaining this stuff I have seen. It is:http://www.dogworld.co.za/breed_focus/Malt...breed_focus.htm k:[/B]


Awesome link! I'm learning so much from this...Thanks! I'm sure I'll be like a first-year med student with this link....

QUOTE (LUCY N PETS @ Jun 24 2009, 12:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796228


> Well I have to say that I think Casanova's face and booty is just perfect to me. Love his face and everyone else loves all of him as well. :wub: :wub: :wub:[/B]


Aww....thanks so much! That's awful sweet of you!
[/B][/QUOTE]


Sophia! You and I have "lucked out" with out latest malts! Your Casanova is the most adorable little guy I've ever seen!


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jun 24 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796213


> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796209





> QUOTE (wsun6 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=795984





> I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.
> 
> As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?[/B]


After admring Josy's current show boy Turner at a show I asked her to define what she looks for in the breed and this is what she told me:

_" I like a wide, flat skull with a extra big round eye. That is my style ... I like a good 5 to 5 lb dog. I don't like them little and squirly. I like a dog with substance that you can play with and that looks happy and healthy not ready for a nap." _

You can also get an idea about what kind of dogs a breeder produces by looking back at the pedigrees of their dogs. Turner is a nice example of Josy's line, and if you look at his pedigree you can see a lot of influence from Chrisman, plus the added element of Thriller (Marcirs, Rhapsody, Divine). 

Taking the dogs you know from certain lines in pedigrees and looking at how another breeder has used them can help you get ideas about what style they are targeting.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I just love Josy's Maltese. They are #1 in my book. I like the fact that she breeds for a substantial 5-5.5 pound size. I like a Malt on the higher end of the standard.

I love her Holly. I have already told Josy I want her if and when she ever retires her!

http://www.josymirmaltese.com/showing/Holly.htm
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa, the famous Thriller was her sire!! Holly's grandfather and Claire's great grandfather are the same .. Chrisman's Sugar Shock.


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## jmm

I went over Roo's entire litter's structure with Debbie Cleckley....so I can't at all agree structure is not important to her.


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## princessre

Thanks for the correction, ladies! Now that I have read Carina's post as well as the awesome link she provided, of course it doesn't make any sense that any active show breeder would ignore structure. It seems like structure is so important!! Anyway, I corrected it in my original post....as it now comes across to me like someone's ridiculous assertion. Good to know, and soooo good to learn!! xo


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## princessre

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796427


> Sophia! You and I have "lucked out" with out latest malts! Your Casanova is the most adorable little guy I've ever seen![/B]


Hmm...thanks, Pat! But I still want Ava :wub: :wub: :wub: Okay, not Ava because I know how much you love her. But like Ava's identical twin. Can you help me do that?


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## roxybaby22

^^I want Ava too! Do you think you could make her a triplet, Pat?!?


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## Cosy

I agree with Carina and Stacy. Structure is very important but you don't always get that perfect structure in pets as that's
why they're not in the ring instead of on our beds. Haha. Everyone loves a pretty head but the key is to get the whole 
enchilada. For example, Toy has a less than perfect front, but a strong driving rear and ice silk coat. Cosy has a great
front and rear but her coat, although white and no color, it is a little softer and she's only 4 lbs. 
I do want to say that when I went looking for Toy I did not know Bonnie was producing pretty heads but knew she had
bred to Risque and I knew he threw them. I told her what I was looking for and if she came upon a pup like that to 
please keep me in mind. Of course, Cosy was a given when I went back for seconds. She knew I'd love her. 
Bonnie doesn't have just smaller maltese. She shows dogs of size in the ring and often gets some for pets as well.
I'm sure other breeders do too.


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## lovesophie

Josymir and Chalet have gorgeous dogs!! :wub: :wub: I _think_ Josymir produces more of the traditional heads (my observation only), while Chalet produces shorter muzzles with a slightly wider eye set (again, only my observation). But I agree with Brit (Cosy) that breeders get different looks from time to time, so if you're looking for a specific look (a more traditional head or a baby-doll head), just ask the breeder if he/she has that particular look. Good luck to you!!

By the way, I've noticed a lot of the Angels :wub: have a wider eye set than Malts from Rhapsody, Ta-Jon, Chrisman, etc. Does this make the muzzle look shorter?


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## princessre

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jun 25 2009, 02:49 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796542


> I knew he threw them. I told her what I was looking for and if she came upon a pup like that to
> please keep me in mind. Of course, Cosy was a given when I went back for seconds. She knew I'd love her.
> Bonnie doesn't have just smaller maltese. She shows dogs of size in the ring and often gets some for pets as well.
> I'm sure other breeders do too.[/B]


Brit- as usual you are teaching me something! Okay, what does it mean when you say "he threw them?"  

As a hypothetical, if most of the pets available from Breeder A are 4 pounds or below AND most of the pets available from Breeder B are 6 pounds or above, then would it be fair to say that Breeder A probably breeds on the smaller side of standard and Breeder B breeds on the larger side of standard?  

Is dog genetics similar to human genetics where even though 12 different alleles determine offspring height, therefore two short parents could produce one tall offspring, however "most of the apples do not fall far from the tree"?

Also, can you please describe Cosy to me so I can say the same thing to Bonnie? Maybe I should just say "one that looks like Cosy.." LOL :heart:


----------



## Cosy

By "threw" I meant that the dog produced that head with some regularity.

I can't speak for all breeders but some lines do produce smaller more often than others. It doesn't mean the breeder
wants all smaller but knows she will get some smaller if she breeds that particular line/dog. 
Some lines produce small ones more frequently, while others just here and there. No show breeder wants dinky dogs
when they are breeding for show. They just happen and often there will be a standard size pup within the same
litter as the smaller size pup. Can you tell by the parents? Not always. Sometimes pups will be a throwback to the 
grandparents or farther back. All those generations of good dogs contribute to a healthy beautiful sound maltese. It's
the breeder's job to figure out who "throws" what the most. If the breeder finds she is getting dogs too small or too large
she may introduce a line which will increase or decrease size. The same goes for other traits. I hope this makes some
sense to you.

Often non-maltese people will swear they all look alike, but you can see Ava is different from Cosy. Cosy is different
from Coco. Coco is different from Mia. Mia is different from Casanova. Although they're all smaller and adorable
heads/faces, they are all a little different. Just like people! So, describing their common traits would be the way
to go if asking a breeder for that type. Those traits would be shorter muzzle, wide eyes, under five pounds grown,
with nice coats and of course that sweet temperment. This is what I ask for and then go into movement, tailset,
etc after seeing pics if not the pup in person. It's eliminating what you don't want and getting what you do want
without insulting the breeder! LOL If you like a larger dog you would state that as a priority. Whatever you like in a
maltese if you learn to describe it to a breeder she/he can more easily decide if she has anything coming up that 
would be close to your desires.


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## ilovemymaltese

Brit, didn't Bonnie describe your Cosy as having a "kitten face"? So, we'll all just go to Bonnie and ask for a "kitten face" like Cosy! :biggrin:


----------



## Cosy

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jun 25 2009, 09:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796600


> Brit, didn't Bonnie describe your Cosy as having a "kitten face"? So, we'll all just go to Bonnie and ask for a "kitten face" like Cosy! :biggrin:[/B]



Haha! Sure! Go ahead and ask! Don't blame me if it meows though. LOL! Wait, Cosy makes kitten noises too. :shocked:


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## CeeCee's Mom

Rain has such a small face with hugh eyes. She really has the prettiest, dark eyes. She is such a quick little thing and she walks on her back legs at times.......it is so cute but I wonder about those patellas. She gets excited and she litterly walks around for a few seconds on those back legs of hers. She will not jump off a bed or chair or couch. She does use the steps that I have for couches, chairs and bed but I guess because she is so little, she has to use something. Sophia had told me that Cassanova does not jump off things and I could not imagine but now I know what she is talking about. Rain's coat is silky soft and smooth and I love that. I am so use to CeeCee's larger face and frame that Bonnie's dogs are petite and small. They are really quite unique in their personalities and form, I had heard Britt and Mary Ann talk about how they were so sweet, Rain is truly a sweet, sassy and full of life malt. I think Bonnie's look is unique and so recognizable. They may not all look exactly alike but I think for most of them, you know immediately that they are Bonnie's Angels!!!!! I do love the fact that I have CeeCee with her unique look and weights between 6 to 6 1/2 lbs now and Rain, who weights in a little over 4 lbs. Such a cute sister combination~~


----------



## princessre

I can just imagine going to Bonnie and saying, "This is what I'd like. I'd like a kitten like Cosy. :wub: Or an imp like Ava. :wub: Or a bunny like Coco. :wub: Or a chick like Rain. :wub: " She might think I'm :wacko1: Or she might know exactly what I'm talking about :HistericalSmiley:


----------



## CeeCee's Mom

QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 25 2009, 10:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796644


> I can just imagine going to Bonnie and saying, "This is what I'd like. I'd like a kitten like Cosy. :wub: Or an imp like Ava. :wub: Or a bunny like Coco. :wub: Or a chick like Rain. :wub: " She might think I'm :wacko1: Or she might know exactly what I'm talking about :HistericalSmiley:[/B]



Your soooooo Funny!!!! LOL!!!!!


----------



## godiva goddess

Brit and Carina, thank you both for your great posts. I felt like I had an advance course in Maltese appearance and structure! Also showed me how little I know as well! Lol!! So thank you both for that! I truy learned so much! 

I agree that no matter the subtle differences between all the Angels , I can spot an Angel easily- they are all beautiful baby dolls, no matter if it is kitten like Cosy or doll like Casanova, and of course darling Ava and beautiful Rain! 
I had the honor to hold miss Ava @ Pat's party she was the sweetest little doll baby. She was as beauitful in person as her pictures but her personality was soo sweet!! 

Dianne, i giggled when you mentioned Rain doesn't jump off couches, now I know Mia is not alone! Mia doesn't jump up and if I put her on a higher platform, she doesn't jump down neither. I thought she was afraid but her tail was never down. But then again, she probably can't climb or jump bc she's short and small. Lol. When I met Benny and Emma they were so agile I thought Mia was the only malt who didn't jump! Benny and Emma were up on stairs and there 
was little Mia, in last place, begging me to get her up on the stairs. Lol. She is a little shortie. Lol


----------



## k/c mom

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 25 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796702


> Brit and Carina, thank you both for your great posts. I felt like I had an advance course in Maltese appearance and structure! Also showed me how little I know as well! Lol!! So thank you both for that! I truy learned so much!
> 
> I agree that no matter the subtle differences between all the Angels , I can spot an Angel easily- they are all beautiful baby dolls, no matter if it is kitten like Cosy or doll like Casanova, and of course darling Ava and beautiful Rain!
> I had the honor to hold miss Ava @ Pat's party she was the sweetest little doll baby. She was as beauitful in person as her pictures but her personality was soo sweet!!
> 
> Dianne, i giggled when you mentioned Rain doesn't jump off couches, now I know Mia is not alone! Mia doesn't jump up and if I put her on a higher platform, she doesn't jump down neither. I thought she was afraid but her tail was never down. But then again, she probably can't climb or jump bc she's short and small. Lol. When I met Benny and Emma they were so agile I thought Mia was the only malt who didn't jump! Benny and Emma were up on stairs and there
> was little Mia, in last place, begging me to get her up on the stairs. Lol. She is a little shortie. Lol[/B]


Catcher and Claire don't jump either and I'm so glad! Catcher could easily but he doesn't know he can. When I lift him on or off the bed I am barely touching him .. he is doing it himself but he thinks he needs me to help him!! Claire could easiliy jump, too since she is a big girl at 7 pounds (she lost some baby fat, thank goodness!!). Kallie is my jumper and that is why I love that Catcher and Claire don't jump... it is Kallie's way to escape when she needs to get away from being tormented by either Catcher or Claire ... 

We were talking about litters and sizes of Malts... I had asked Tonia about Claire's siblings... her sister was tiny and was placed as a pet right away. Claire was (is) a big girl so there you have two from the same parents with totally different sizes. In fact, as a way to identify Claire on Tonia's photos, info, etc. she would always put "Joker x Gwen big girl"!! Yep, she is my Buddha baby!!


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## garrettsmom

QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 25 2009, 02:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796534


> QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796427





> Sophia! You and I have "lucked out" with out latest malts! Your Casanova is the most adorable little guy I've ever seen![/B]


Hmm...thanks, Pat! But I still want Ava :wub: :wub: :wub: Okay, not Ava because I know how much you love her. But like Ava's identical twin. Can you help me do that?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I think you already have Ava's identical (or fraternal) twin!! I always thought Cassanova and Ava looked like littermates! :wub: :wub: I know, you can't put a dress on Cassanova though


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## ilovemymaltese

LOL Gigi doen't jump off of anything either. Thank goodness, don't want her to injure herself. And she can't jump on the couch to save her life. She trys so hard though. LOL It's so cute. My friend bought her to 3 pound chihuahuas over my house once and they were jumping from couch to couch, scaring me to death because I thought they would fall and hurt themselves. Gigi just stood there and looked at me to pick her up and put her on the couch. LOL And Dianne, Gigi is a back leg walker too. We call her a little person because she even walks on two legs on a leash. I think it's adorable. 

Structure was important to me when I was looking for a malt. Gigi has an okay topline, good rear, okay front, great tailset. Deep pigmentation. And this dog can walk on her pretty little head. LOL When Gigi walks, she glides across a floor. Her breeder said she had the perfect flowing gait. With the correct silky coat a malt should have. I can go days without brushing Gigi's coat and it never tangles or matts. I was thinking of showing so I wasn't looking for a malt with a "kitten face" like the adorable Cosy. I wanted a smaller muzzle but not so small that it would be a fault. I personally think the malt standard should be revised so that all malts should have a Cosy face! LOL Most of Gigi's lines are Marcris and they are notable for tiny faces and great coats. I knew a while back that dogs with Risque genes had great pigment. Gigi was not shown because she's barely four pounds and too small to be bred, and as she's aged Gigi's bite went off unfortunately. She has other faults but I'm learning to hide those.  LOL

I learned a lot from my first malt pup Imani. She had very poor pigment and structure and health. But a great thick coat and she glided like a show dog when she walked too. She was even champion sired. Too bad about her health though...that was my *most* important thing when I searched for a new malt. 

Of course, with any breeder I decided to go with, I will visit the pup at their house and make sure she is right for me. I have to be very comfortable with a breeder before buying from them. And I think it's silly to buy a puppy before you've even seen a picture of it, or if the pups not even born yet. How do you know what you're getting? Like many have mentioned, all breeders can have different types of looks even in the same litter. 
I prefer a malt that is a bit older. I like to know what I'm getting, and I don't have to go through that puppy stage. LOL
But these are the "type" of faces I'm looking for in a malt(pictures from Shinemore Maltese):


----------



## Ladysmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 25 2009, 04:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796767


> We were talking about litters and sizes of Malts... I had asked Tonia about Claire's siblings... her sister was tiny and was placed as a pet right away. Claire was (is) a big girl so there you have two from the same parents with totally different sizes. In fact, as a way to identify Claire on Tonia's photos, info, etc. she would always put "Joker x Gwen big girl"!! Yep, she is my Buddha baby!![/B]


I have to laugh at the idea of a seven pound dog being big! 

I think a 6-7 pound Maltese is ideal. I'd steal Claire in a heartbeat!


----------



## mom2bijou

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 25 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796702


> Brit and Carina, thank you both for your great posts. I felt like I had an advance course in Maltese appearance and structure! Also showed me how little I know as well! Lol!! So thank you both for that! I truy learned so much!
> 
> I agree that no matter the subtle differences between all the Angels , I can spot an Angel easily- they are all beautiful baby dolls, no matter if it is kitten like Cosy or doll like Casanova, and of course darling Ava and beautiful Rain!
> I had the honor to hold miss Ava @ Pat's party she was the sweetest little doll baby. She was as beauitful in person as her pictures but her personality was soo sweet!!
> 
> Dianne, i giggled when you mentioned Rain doesn't jump off couches, now I know Mia is not alone! Mia doesn't jump up and if I put her on a higher platform, she doesn't jump down neither. I thought she was afraid but her tail was never down. But then again, she probably can't climb or jump bc she's short and small. Lol. When I met Benny and Emma they were so agile I thought Mia was the only malt who didn't jump! Benny and Emma were up on stairs and there
> was little Mia, in last place, begging me to get her up on the stairs. Lol. She is a little shortie. Lol[/B]


LOL Benny and Emma are agile LOL!!!!! They act like little beasts! I find if IMPOSSIBLE to keep them from jumping on and off everything! :brownbag:


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (mom2Bijou @ Jun 26 2009, 11:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797140


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 25 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796702





> Brit and Carina, thank you both for your great posts. I felt like I had an advance course in Maltese appearance and structure! Also showed me how little I know as well! Lol!! So thank you both for that! I truy learned so much!
> 
> I agree that no matter the subtle differences between all the Angels , I can spot an Angel easily- they are all beautiful baby dolls, no matter if it is kitten like Cosy or doll like Casanova, and of course darling Ava and beautiful Rain!
> I had the honor to hold miss Ava @ Pat's party she was the sweetest little doll baby. She was as beauitful in person as her pictures but her personality was soo sweet!!
> 
> Dianne, i giggled when you mentioned Rain doesn't jump off couches, now I know Mia is not alone! Mia doesn't jump up and if I put her on a higher platform, she doesn't jump down neither. I thought she was afraid but her tail was never down. But then again, she probably can't climb or jump bc she's short and small. Lol. When I met Benny and Emma they were so agile I thought Mia was the only malt who didn't jump! Benny and Emma were up on stairs and there
> was little Mia, in last place, begging me to get her up on the stairs. Lol. She is a little shortie. Lol[/B]


LOL Benny and Emma are agile LOL!!!!! They act like little beasts! I find if IMPOSSIBLE to keep them from jumping on and off everything! :brownbag:
[/B][/QUOTE]

HAHA Beasts? I love it when malts act like BEASTS! It's adorable! LOL


----------



## mysugarbears

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 25 2009, 03:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796767


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 25 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796702





> Brit and Carina, thank you both for your great posts. I felt like I had an advance course in Maltese appearance and structure! Also showed me how little I know as well! Lol!! So thank you both for that! I truy learned so much!
> 
> I agree that no matter the subtle differences between all the Angels , I can spot an Angel easily- they are all beautiful baby dolls, no matter if it is kitten like Cosy or doll like Casanova, and of course darling Ava and beautiful Rain!
> I had the honor to hold miss Ava @ Pat's party she was the sweetest little doll baby. She was as beauitful in person as her pictures but her personality was soo sweet!!
> 
> Dianne, i giggled when you mentioned Rain doesn't jump off couches, now I know Mia is not alone! Mia doesn't jump up and if I put her on a higher platform, she doesn't jump down neither. I thought she was afraid but her tail was never down. But then again, she probably can't climb or jump bc she's short and small. Lol. When I met Benny and Emma they were so agile I thought Mia was the only malt who didn't jump! Benny and Emma were up on stairs and there
> was little Mia, in last place, begging me to get her up on the stairs. Lol. She is a little shortie. Lol[/B]


Catcher and Claire don't jump either and I'm so glad! Catcher could easily but he doesn't know he can. When I lift him on or off the bed I am barely touching him .. he is doing it himself but he thinks he needs me to help him!! Claire could easiliy jump, too since she is a big girl at 7 pounds (she lost some baby fat, thank goodness!!). Kallie is my jumper and that is why I love that Catcher and Claire don't jump... it is Kallie's way to escape when she needs to get away from being tormented by either Catcher or Claire ... 

We were talking about litters and sizes of Malts... I had asked Tonia about Claire's siblings... her sister was tiny and was placed as a pet right away. Claire was (is) a big girl so there you have two from the same parents with totally different sizes. In fact, as a way to identify Claire on Tonia's photos, info, etc. she would always put "Joker x Gwen big girl"!! Yep, she is my Buddha baby!!
[/B][/QUOTE]



I wish mine didn't jump all over the place we have stairs, but they still jump. We call Noelle our flying squirrel, she can be on end of t he couch and when you sit on the other end she leaps onto you. Lol.


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## godiva goddess

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796431


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jun 24 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796213





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796209





> QUOTE (wsun6 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=795984





> I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.
> 
> As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?[/B]


After admring Josy's current show boy Turner at a show I asked her to define what she looks for in the breed and this is what she told me:

_" I like a wide, flat skull with a extra big round eye. That is my style ... I like a good 5 to 5 lb dog. I don't like them little and squirly. I like a dog with substance that you can play with and that looks happy and healthy not ready for a nap." _

You can also get an idea about what kind of dogs a breeder produces by looking back at the pedigrees of their dogs. Turner is a nice example of Josy's line, and if you look at his pedigree you can see a lot of influence from Chrisman, plus the added element of Thriller (Marcirs, Rhapsody, Divine). 

Taking the dogs you know from certain lines in pedigrees and looking at how another breeder has used them can help you get ideas about what style they are targeting.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I just love Josy's Maltese. They are #1 in my book. I like the fact that she breeds for a substantial 5-5.5 pound size. I like a Malt on the higher end of the standard.

I love her Holly. I have already told Josy I want her if and when she ever retires her!

http://www.josymirmaltese.com/showing/Holly.htm
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa, the famous Thriller was her sire!! Holly's grandfather and Claire's great grandfather are the same .. Chrisman's Sugar Shock.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sher, Mia's grandfather on her mommy side is also Ch. Chrisman's Sugar Shock!!! Our girls are related!!! :thumbsup:

Update: I just read her pedigree again, Mia's great grandfather is also Thriller!! 

OK, I need to go over Mia's pedigree again...lol..its all red! I think many of our babies on here might be related!!!


----------



## k/c mom

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 10:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797353


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796431





> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jun 24 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796213





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796209





> QUOTE (wsun6 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=795984





> I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.
> 
> As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?[/B]


After admring Josy's current show boy Turner at a show I asked her to define what she looks for in the breed and this is what she told me:

_" I like a wide, flat skull with a extra big round eye. That is my style ... I like a good 5 to 5 lb dog. I don't like them little and squirly. I like a dog with substance that you can play with and that looks happy and healthy not ready for a nap." _

You can also get an idea about what kind of dogs a breeder produces by looking back at the pedigrees of their dogs. Turner is a nice example of Josy's line, and if you look at his pedigree you can see a lot of influence from Chrisman, plus the added element of Thriller (Marcirs, Rhapsody, Divine). 

Taking the dogs you know from certain lines in pedigrees and looking at how another breeder has used them can help you get ideas about what style they are targeting.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I just love Josy's Maltese. They are #1 in my book. I like the fact that she breeds for a substantial 5-5.5 pound size. I like a Malt on the higher end of the standard.

I love her Holly. I have already told Josy I want her if and when she ever retires her!

http://www.josymirmaltese.com/showing/Holly.htm
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa, the famous Thriller was her sire!! Holly's grandfather and Claire's great grandfather are the same .. Chrisman's Sugar Shock.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sher, *Mia's grandfather on her mommy side is also Ch. Chrisman's Sugar Shock*!!! Our girls are related!!! :thumbsup:

Update: I just read her pedigree again, Mia's great grandfather is also Thriller!! 

OK, I need to go over Mia's pedigree again...lol..its all red! I think many of our babies on here might be related!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Coool! Here's Claire's father's pedigree. Her Chrisman blood is all on her father's side. Any more relatives in there?

http://rhapsodymaltese.com/pedigrees/ped_joker.pdf


----------



## godiva goddess

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 26 2009, 10:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797356


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 10:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797353





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796431





> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jun 24 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796213





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796209





> QUOTE (wsun6 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=795984





> I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.
> 
> As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?[/B]


After admring Josy's current show boy Turner at a show I asked her to define what she looks for in the breed and this is what she told me:

_" I like a wide, flat skull with a extra big round eye. That is my style ... I like a good 5 to 5 lb dog. I don't like them little and squirly. I like a dog with substance that you can play with and that looks happy and healthy not ready for a nap." _

You can also get an idea about what kind of dogs a breeder produces by looking back at the pedigrees of their dogs. Turner is a nice example of Josy's line, and if you look at his pedigree you can see a lot of influence from Chrisman, plus the added element of Thriller (Marcirs, Rhapsody, Divine). 

Taking the dogs you know from certain lines in pedigrees and looking at how another breeder has used them can help you get ideas about what style they are targeting.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I just love Josy's Maltese. They are #1 in my book. I like the fact that she breeds for a substantial 5-5.5 pound size. I like a Malt on the higher end of the standard.

I love her Holly. I have already told Josy I want her if and when she ever retires her!

http://www.josymirmaltese.com/showing/Holly.htm
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa, the famous Thriller was her sire!! Holly's grandfather and Claire's great grandfather are the same .. Chrisman's Sugar Shock.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sher, *Mia's grandfather on her mommy side is also Ch. Chrisman's Sugar Shock*!!! Our girls are related!!! :thumbsup:

Update: I just read her pedigree again, Mia's great grandfather is also Thriller!! 

OK, I need to go over Mia's pedigree again...lol..its all red! I think many of our babies on here might be related!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Coool! Here's Claire's father's pedigree. Her Chrisman blood is all on her father's side. Any more relatives in there?

http://rhapsodymaltese.com/pedigrees/ped_joker.pdf
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow, Claire has an impressive pedigree!!! I really need to mail in Mia's AKC registration..I have been slacking b/c I cant think of an official name for her...lol.. :brownbag: 

Ok, I see these relatives:

*Ch. Patrician Play It Again, 

Am.Bah.Int.Ch. Marcris Risque Business (ROMX)

Ch. Marcis Melissa (ROM)

Am. Bis. NZ. Aust.Ch. Tajons Knicknack Pattiwack

Am.Kor.Biss.It.Jr.WorldCh. Chrisman's Sugar Ray

Ch.Patrician Poltergeist*


Our girls have so many relatives!!!! :chili: :chili: Claire has alot of Chrisman in her!!! 

I have no idea what those initials mean except "Ch." Lol..like that does Am.Kor.Biss.It.Jr.WorldCh. Chrisman's Sugar Ray mean?? lol..

Have you decided what Claire's official name will be?


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 10:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797361


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 26 2009, 10:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797356





> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 10:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797353





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796431





> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jun 24 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796213





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 24 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796209





> QUOTE (wsun6 @ Jun 23 2009, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=795984





> I've often read that certain breeders have a distinct "look" (ex: "I love the chrisman look") but perhaps I don't know enough about maltese to differentiate for myself.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what distinguishes Josy (Josymir) from Chalet de Maltese (Susie) since these are the two I've heard great things about.
> 
> As my first maltese, is this even worth considering?[/B]


After admring Josy's current show boy Turner at a show I asked her to define what she looks for in the breed and this is what she told me:

_" I like a wide, flat skull with a extra big round eye. That is my style ... I like a good 5 to 5 lb dog. I don't like them little and squirly. I like a dog with substance that you can play with and that looks happy and healthy not ready for a nap." _

You can also get an idea about what kind of dogs a breeder produces by looking back at the pedigrees of their dogs. Turner is a nice example of Josy's line, and if you look at his pedigree you can see a lot of influence from Chrisman, plus the added element of Thriller (Marcirs, Rhapsody, Divine). 

Taking the dogs you know from certain lines in pedigrees and looking at how another breeder has used them can help you get ideas about what style they are targeting.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I just love Josy's Maltese. They are #1 in my book. I like the fact that she breeds for a substantial 5-5.5 pound size. I like a Malt on the higher end of the standard.

I love her Holly. I have already told Josy I want her if and when she ever retires her!

http://www.josymirmaltese.com/showing/Holly.htm
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa, the famous Thriller was her sire!! Holly's grandfather and Claire's great grandfather are the same .. Chrisman's Sugar Shock.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sher, *Mia's grandfather on her mommy side is also Ch. Chrisman's Sugar Shock*!!! Our girls are related!!! :thumbsup:

Update: I just read her pedigree again, Mia's great grandfather is also Thriller!! 

OK, I need to go over Mia's pedigree again...lol..its all red! I think many of our babies on here might be related!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Coool! Here's Claire's father's pedigree. Her Chrisman blood is all on her father's side. Any more relatives in there?

http://rhapsodymaltese.com/pedigrees/ped_joker.pdf
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow, Claire has an impressive pedigree!!! I really need to mail in Mia's AKC registration..I have been slacking b/c I cant think of an official name for her...lol.. :brownbag: 

Ok, I see these relatives:

*Ch. Patrician Play It Again, 

Am.Bah.Int.Ch. Marcris Risque Business (ROMX)

Ch. Marcis Melissa (ROM)

Am. Bis. NZ. Aust.Ch. Tajons Knicknack Pattiwack

Am.Kor.Biss.It.Jr.WorldCh. Chrisman's Sugar Ray

Ch.Patrician Poltergeist*


Our girls have so many relatives!!!! :chili: :chili: Claire has alot of Chrisman in her!!! 

I have no idea what those initials mean except "Ch." Lol..like that does Am.Kor.Biss.It.Jr.WorldCh. Chrisman's Sugar Ray mean?? lol..

Have you decided what Claire's official name will be?
[/B][/QUOTE]

The BISS is Best in Show I think. Looks like he was an international champion .. maybe Italian and Korean? 

I chose *Claire de Lune Remarkable Rhapsody *for Claire's registered name. I wasn't sure if I could/should use Rhapsody at the beginning of her name but I wanted to use it. "Remark" is part of Claire's mother's name... "CH Glitzy Remark" ... and since Claire de Lune is a song and a rhapsody is, too.. I just put it all together and got her name!!


----------



## CloudClan

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 10:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797353


> I have no idea what those initials mean except "Ch." Lol..like that does Am.Kor.Biss.It.Jr.WorldCh. Chrisman's Sugar Ray mean?? lol..
> 
> Have you decided what Claire's official name will be?[/B]


QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796431


> The BISS is Best in Show I think. Looks like he was an international champion .. maybe Italian and Korean?
> 
> I chose *Claire de Lune Remarkable Rhapsody *for Claire's registered name. I wasn't sure if I could/should use Rhapsody at the beginning of her name but I wanted to use it. "Remark" is part of Claire's mother's name... "CH Glitzy Remark" ... and since Claire de Lune is a song and a rhapsody is, too.. I just put it all together and got her name!![/B]



BISS= Best In Specialty Show, that could include either the national specialties or the regional specialties. BIS= Best in Show which means an All Breed Show. Both are very impressive, but generally the BIS is seen as a bigger deal as it means defeating so many more dogs. 

Yes those other initials mean AM= American, Kor= Korean It Jr= Italian Junior and World Champion. 

Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny. 

Though more rare in Maltese you may also see performance titles. Most of these follow the name like my Cloud was Cloud Rock CD, CD= Companion Dog

Soda Pop is RN, CD RN= Rally Novice


----------



## dwerten

omg these are adorable 


QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jun 26 2009, 01:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797039


> LOL Gigi doen't jump off of anything either. Thank goodness, don't want her to injure herself. And she can't jump on the couch to save her life. She trys so hard though. LOL It's so cute. My friend bought her to 3 pound chihuahuas over my house once and they were jumping from couch to couch, scaring me to death because I thought they would fall and hurt themselves. Gigi just stood there and looked at me to pick her up and put her on the couch. LOL And Dianne, Gigi is a back leg walker too. We call her a little person because she even walks on two legs on a leash. I think it's adorable.
> 
> Structure was important to me when I was looking for a malt. Gigi has an okay topline, good rear, okay front, great tailset. Deep pigmentation. And this dog can walk on her pretty little head. LOL When Gigi walks, she glides across a floor. Her breeder said she had the perfect flowing gait. With the correct silky coat a malt should have. I can go days without brushing Gigi's coat and it never tangles or matts. I was thinking of showing so I wasn't looking for a malt with a "kitten face" like the adorable Cosy. I wanted a smaller muzzle but not so small that it would be a fault. I personally think the malt standard should be revised so that all malts should have a Cosy face! LOL Most of Gigi's lines are Marcris and they are notable for tiny faces and great coats. I knew a while back that dogs with Risque genes had great pigment. Gigi was not shown because she's barely four pounds and too small to be bred, and as she's aged Gigi's bite went off unfortunately. She has other faults but I'm learning to hide those.  LOL
> 
> I learned a lot from my first malt pup Imani. She had very poor pigment and structure and health. But a great thick coat and she glided like a show dog when she walked too. She was even champion sired. Too bad about her health though...that was my *most* important thing when I searched for a new malt.
> 
> Of course, with any breeder I decided to go with, I will visit the pup at their house and make sure she is right for me. I have to be very comfortable with a breeder before buying from them. And I think it's silly to buy a puppy before you've even seen a picture of it, or if the pups not even born yet. How do you know what you're getting? Like many have mentioned, all breeders can have different types of looks even in the same litter.
> I prefer a malt that is a bit older. I like to know what I'm getting, and I don't have to go through that puppy stage. LOL
> But these are the "type" of faces I'm looking for in a malt:[/B]


----------



## godiva goddess

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 10:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797353





> I have no idea what those initials mean except "Ch." Lol..like that does Am.Kor.Biss.It.Jr.WorldCh. Chrisman's Sugar Ray mean?? lol..
> 
> Have you decided what Claire's official name will be?[/B]


QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Jun 24 2009, 09:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796431


> The BISS is Best in Show I think. Looks like he was an international champion .. maybe Italian and Korean?
> 
> I chose *Claire de Lune Remarkable Rhapsody *for Claire's registered name. I wasn't sure if I could/should use Rhapsody at the beginning of her name but I wanted to use it. "Remark" is part of Claire's mother's name... "CH Glitzy Remark" ... and since Claire de Lune is a song and a rhapsody is, too.. I just put it all together and got her name!![/B]



BISS= Best In Specialty Show, that could include either the national specialties or the regional specialties. BIS= Best in Show which means an All Breed Show. Both are very impressive, but generally the BIS is seen as a bigger deal as it means defeating so many more dogs. 

Yes those other initials mean AM= American, Kor= Korean It Jr= Italian Junior and World Champion. 

Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny. 

Though more rare in Maltese you may also see performance titles. Most of these follow the name like my Cloud was Cloud Rock CD, CD= Companion Dog

Soda Pop is RN, CD RN= Rally Novice
[/B][/QUOTE]


Ooo....Ok..so BIS.Ch.Chriman's Gin Blosson means "Best in Show Champion" Gin Blossom ?

What is BISP.Ch.Chrisman's Indecent Obession mean? What is BISP?

Thanks Carina!'

Btw, when it says Kor= Korean or It= Italian does that mean that the breeder when to Korea or Italy to compete in their shows?


----------



## ilovemymaltese

Alice, my Gigi is related to you. She has Marcris Risque Bussiness and Marcris Melissa on her pedigree three times. Gigi has lots of old lines in her pedigree, like Tamar, Ringmasters, Su-Li, Jo-San, ect. Cindy has been breeding since the early 1970s! She only picked the best!


----------



## CloudClan

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 11:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797379


> Ooo....Ok..so BIS.Ch.Chriman's Gin Blosson means "Best in Show Champion" Gin Blossom ?
> 
> What is BISP.Ch.Chrisman's Indecent Obession mean? What is BISP?
> 
> Thanks Carina!'
> 
> Btw, when it says Kor= Korean or It= Italian does that mean that the breeder when to Korea or Italy to compete in their shows?[/B]


Yes, Ginny was a multiple Best In Show winner. She was their first homebred champion. She passed away earlier this year. I think she was almost 14. 

BISP would mean Best Puppy in Show , which is a special event held sometimes at certain shows. 

Chrisman's Sugar Ray was bought and co-owned by Franco Prosperi who is from Italy. That explains the Italian and world titles. I honestly do not know how the Korean title came about.


----------



## k/c mom

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 27 2009, 02:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797447


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 11:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797379





> Ooo....Ok..so BIS.Ch.Chriman's Gin Blosson means "Best in Show Champion" Gin Blossom ?
> 
> What is BISP.Ch.Chrisman's Indecent Obession mean? What is BISP?
> 
> Thanks Carina!'
> 
> Btw, when it says Kor= Korean or It= Italian does that mean that the breeder when to Korea or Italy to compete in their shows?[/B]


Yes, Ginny was a multiple Best In Show winner. She was their first homebred champion. She passed away earlier this year. I think she was almost 14. 

BISP would mean Best Puppy in Show , which is a special event held sometimes at certain shows. 

Chrisman's Sugar Ray was bought and co-owned by Franco Prosperi who is from Italy. That explains the Italian and world titles. I honestly do not know how the Korean title came about.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for all this great info Carina!! Here's one more question... I notice on pedigrees lately that something new has been added to Risqué's name .... what is ATLP? It appears like this: CH Marquis Risqué Business ROMX (ATLP)


----------



## godiva goddess

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 27 2009, 02:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797447


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jun 26 2009, 11:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797379





> Ooo....Ok..so BIS.Ch.Chriman's Gin Blosson means "Best in Show Champion" Gin Blossom ?
> 
> What is BISP.Ch.Chrisman's Indecent Obession mean? What is BISP?
> 
> Thanks Carina!'
> 
> Btw, when it says Kor= Korean or It= Italian does that mean that the breeder when to Korea or Italy to compete in their shows?[/B]


Yes, Ginny was a multiple Best In Show winner. She was their first homebred champion. She passed away earlier this year. I think she was almost 14. 

BISP would mean Best Puppy in Show , which is a special event held sometimes at certain shows. 

Chrisman's Sugar Ray was bought and co-owned by Franco Prosperi who is from Italy. That explains the Italian and world titles. I honestly do not know how the Korean title came about.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you Carina!!! wow, you are so knowledgeable about Maltese but also about Chrismans!! :thumbsup: Thank you again!!!

Sher, Claire de Lune Remarkable Rhapsody is a great name!!!! I like how you tied in her parents name w/ Rhapsody and also Claire's own name..I love it- you are so creative!!!


----------



## HaleysMom

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jun 26 2009, 12:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797039


> LOL Gigi doen't jump off of anything either. Thank goodness, don't want her to injure herself. And she can't jump on the couch to save her life. She trys so hard though. LOL It's so cute. My friend bought her to 3 pound chihuahuas over my house once and they were jumping from couch to couch, scaring me to death because I thought they would fall and hurt themselves. Gigi just stood there and looked at me to pick her up and put her on the couch. LOL And Dianne, Gigi is a back leg walker too. We call her a little person because she even walks on two legs on a leash. I think it's adorable.
> 
> Structure was important to me when I was looking for a malt. Gigi has an okay topline, good rear, okay front, great tailset. Deep pigmentation. And this dog can walk on her pretty little head. LOL When Gigi walks, she glides across a floor. Her breeder said she had the perfect flowing gait. With the correct silky coat a malt should have. I can go days without brushing Gigi's coat and it never tangles or matts. I was thinking of showing so I wasn't looking for a malt with a "kitten face" like the adorable Cosy. I wanted a smaller muzzle but not so small that it would be a fault. I personally think the malt standard should be revised so that all malts should have a Cosy face! LOL Most of Gigi's lines are Marcris and they are notable for tiny faces and great coats. I knew a while back that dogs with Risque genes had great pigment. Gigi was not shown because she's barely four pounds and too small to be bred, and as she's aged Gigi's bite went off unfortunately. She has other faults but I'm learning to hide those.  LOL
> 
> I learned a lot from my first malt pup Imani. She had very poor pigment and structure and health. But a great thick coat and she glided like a show dog when she walked too. She was even champion sired. Too bad about her health though...that was my *most* important thing when I searched for a new malt.
> 
> Of course, with any breeder I decided to go with, I will visit the pup at their house and make sure she is right for me. I have to be very comfortable with a breeder before buying from them. And I think it's silly to buy a puppy before you've even seen a picture of it, or if the pups not even born yet. How do you know what you're getting? Like many have mentioned, all breeders can have different types of looks even in the same litter.
> I prefer a malt that is a bit older. I like to know what I'm getting, and I don't have to go through that puppy stage. LOL
> But these are the "type" of faces I'm looking for in a malt:[/B]



Love those adorable faces! :wub: Are they Shinemore Maltese?


----------



## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (HaleysMom @ Jun 27 2009, 12:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797591


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jun 26 2009, 12:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797039





> LOL Gigi doen't jump off of anything either. Thank goodness, don't want her to injure herself. And she can't jump on the couch to save her life. She trys so hard though. LOL It's so cute. My friend bought her to 3 pound chihuahuas over my house once and they were jumping from couch to couch, scaring me to death because I thought they would fall and hurt themselves. Gigi just stood there and looked at me to pick her up and put her on the couch. LOL And Dianne, Gigi is a back leg walker too. We call her a little person because she even walks on two legs on a leash. I think it's adorable.
> 
> Structure was important to me when I was looking for a malt. Gigi has an okay topline, good rear, okay front, great tailset. Deep pigmentation. And this dog can walk on her pretty little head. LOL When Gigi walks, she glides across a floor. Her breeder said she had the perfect flowing gait. With the correct silky coat a malt should have. I can go days without brushing Gigi's coat and it never tangles or matts. I was thinking of showing so I wasn't looking for a malt with a "kitten face" like the adorable Cosy. I wanted a smaller muzzle but not so small that it would be a fault. I personally think the malt standard should be revised so that all malts should have a Cosy face! LOL Most of Gigi's lines are Marcris and they are notable for tiny faces and great coats. I knew a while back that dogs with Risque genes had great pigment. Gigi was not shown because she's barely four pounds and too small to be bred, and as she's aged Gigi's bite went off unfortunately. She has other faults but I'm learning to hide those.  LOL
> 
> I learned a lot from my first malt pup Imani. She had very poor pigment and structure and health. But a great thick coat and she glided like a show dog when she walked too. She was even champion sired. Too bad about her health though...that was my *most* important thing when I searched for a new malt.
> 
> Of course, with any breeder I decided to go with, I will visit the pup at their house and make sure she is right for me. I have to be very comfortable with a breeder before buying from them. And I think it's silly to buy a puppy before you've even seen a picture of it, or if the pups not even born yet. How do you know what you're getting? Like many have mentioned, all breeders can have different types of looks even in the same litter.
> I prefer a malt that is a bit older. I like to know what I'm getting, and I don't have to go through that puppy stage. LOL
> But these are the "type" of faces I'm looking for in a malt:[/B]



Love those adorable faces! :wub: Are they Shinemore Maltese?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes.  I love a couple breeders "looks" in Korea.


----------



## MaryH

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374


> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H


----------



## CloudClan

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jun 29 2009, 06:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798591


> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374





> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oops. :brownbag: Thanks for correcting that. :thumbsup: Fascinating. I do not know what the ATLP after Risque's name means. It seems to be unique to Risque though. I looked it up and all I could find was one dog from another breed that also had the initials in his pedigree. 

I was also corrected on another error I made in a previous post. :blush: I included Divine in the background of Thriller (and therefore Turner's) pedigree and I shouldn't have. I have gone back and edited that. His sire was Ch. Rhapsody's Divine Victory, but did not go back to Divine. Of course, Thriller had a tremendous influence on the breed and did also enhance the program breeding program of Divine Maltese.


----------



## MandyMc65

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 29 2009, 03:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798620


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jun 29 2009, 06:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798591





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374





> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oops. :brownbag: Thanks for correcting that. :thumbsup: Fascinating. I do not know what the ATLP after Risque's name means. It seems to be unique to Risque though. I looked it up and all I could find was one dog from another breed that also had the initials in his pedigree. 

I was also corrected on another error I made in a previous post. :blush: I included Divine in the background of Thriller (and therefore Turner's) pedigree and I shouldn't have. I have gone back and edited that. His sire was Ch. Rhapsody's Divine Victory, but did not go back to Divine. Of course, Thriller had a tremendous influence on the breed and did also enhance the program breeding program of Divine Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Could ATLP mean something like "All Time Leading Producer" ??? Since it seems to be unique to Risque? I dunno, just a guess.


----------



## Carole

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jun 29 2009, 05:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798644


> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 29 2009, 03:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798620





> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jun 29 2009, 06:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798591





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374





> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oops. :brownbag: Thanks for correcting that. :thumbsup: Fascinating. I do not know what the ATLP after Risque's name means. It seems to be unique to Risque though. I looked it up and all I could find was one dog from another breed that also had the initials in his pedigree. 

I was also corrected on another error I made in a previous post. :blush: I included Divine in the background of Thriller (and therefore Turner's) pedigree and I shouldn't have. I have gone back and edited that. His sire was Ch. Rhapsody's Divine Victory, but did not go back to Divine. Of course, Thriller had a tremendous influence on the breed and did also enhance the program breeding program of Divine Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Could ATLP mean something like "All Time Leading Producer" ??? Since it seems to be unique to Risque? I dunno, just a guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Below is what it sayson Joyce Watkin's (Marcris Maltese) site.

Am/Col/Ven/PR and FCI Int
CH Marcris Risque' Business ROMX
Risque'
Sire of 107 Champions
*Top Producing Sire of All Time in the World*
AMA Top Producing Sire for
1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002

http://www.marcrismaltese.com/


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (Carole @ Jun 29 2009, 09:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798691


> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jun 29 2009, 05:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798644





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 29 2009, 03:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798620





> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jun 29 2009, 06:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798591





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374





> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oops. :brownbag: Thanks for correcting that. :thumbsup: Fascinating. I do not know what the ATLP after Risque's name means. It seems to be unique to Risque though. I looked it up and all I could find was one dog from another breed that also had the initials in his pedigree. 

I was also corrected on another error I made in a previous post. :blush: I included Divine in the background of Thriller (and therefore Turner's) pedigree and I shouldn't have. I have gone back and edited that. His sire was Ch. Rhapsody's Divine Victory, but did not go back to Divine. Of course, Thriller had a tremendous influence on the breed and did also enhance the program breeding program of Divine Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Could ATLP mean something like "All Time Leading Producer" ??? Since it seems to be unique to Risque? I dunno, just a guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Below is what it sayson Joyce Watkin's (Marcris Maltese) site.

Am/Col/Ven/PR and FCI Int
CH Marcris Risque' Business ROMX
Risque'
Sire of 107 Champions
*Top Producing Sire of All Time in the World*
AMA Top Producing Sire for
1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002

http://www.marcrismaltese.com/
[/B][/QUOTE]

Awww, he was just totally amazing wasn't he!! Here's a tribute thread in case some of the newbies haven't seen it...

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11029


----------



## coco

QUOTE (princessre @ Jun 25 2009, 10:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=796644


> I can just imagine going to Bonnie and saying, "This is what I'd like. I'd like a kitten like Cosy. :wub: Or an imp like Ava. :wub: Or a bunny like Coco. :wub: Or a chick like Rain. :wub: " She might think I'm :wacko1: Or she might know exactly what I'm talking about :HistericalSmiley:[/B]


Just tell her you want a female Cassanova, and I think you'd be fine.  He's adorable! :wub: :wub: 

You are so funny!


----------



## Tina

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jun 29 2009, 05:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798591


> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374





> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H
[/B][/QUOTE]
http://www.americanmaltese.org/ama_club_standing_rules.pdf
From the AMA site on Record of Merit. Scroll down to Record Of Merit.
A bitch must has produced 3 or more AKC champions. Doesn't specify which sex they are supposed to be.
A dog must have produced 5 or more AKC champions. Again, doesn't specify which sex they are supposed to be.
ROMX means that they produced a Best In Show Dog or Bitch. 
Tina


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## MaryH

QUOTE (Tina @ Jun 29 2009, 09:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798700


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jun 29 2009, 05:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798591





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374





> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H
[/B][/QUOTE]
http://www.americanmaltese.org/ama_club_standing_rules.pdf
From the AMA site on Record of Merit. Scroll down to Record Of Merit.
A bitch must has produced 3 or more AKC champions. Doesn't specify which sex they are supposed to be.
A dog must have produced 5 or more AKC champions. Again, doesn't specify which sex they are supposed to be.
ROMX means that they produced a Best In Show Dog or Bitch. 
Tina
[/B][/QUOTE]


You are correct Tina. I just reread my post and thought "how stupid am I?" I knew what I meant to say but said something completely wrong instead. :brownbag: Thanks for getting it right!

MaryH


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## godiva goddess

QUOTE (Carole @ Jun 29 2009, 09:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798691


> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jun 29 2009, 05:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798644





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 29 2009, 03:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798620





> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jun 29 2009, 06:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798591





> QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jun 26 2009, 11:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=797374





> Also, you will often see a ROM = Register of Merit, this varies between males and females but relates to the number of champions produced. Then there is ROMX= Register of Merit Excellent which means they have produced even more champion progeny.[/B]


Correction - ROMX (for Maltese) means having produced 3 or more champion daughters or 5 or more champion sons, at least one of whom has won a Best in Show.

Mary H
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oops. :brownbag: Thanks for correcting that. :thumbsup: Fascinating. I do not know what the ATLP after Risque's name means. It seems to be unique to Risque though. I looked it up and all I could find was one dog from another breed that also had the initials in his pedigree. 

I was also corrected on another error I made in a previous post. :blush: I included Divine in the background of Thriller (and therefore Turner's) pedigree and I shouldn't have. I have gone back and edited that. His sire was Ch. Rhapsody's Divine Victory, but did not go back to Divine. Of course, Thriller had a tremendous influence on the breed and did also enhance the program breeding program of Divine Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Could ATLP mean something like "All Time Leading Producer" ??? Since it seems to be unique to Risque? I dunno, just a guess.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Below is what it sayson Joyce Watkin's (Marcris Maltese) site.

Am/Col/Ven/PR and FCI Int
CH Marcris Risque' Business ROMX
Risque'
Sire of 107 Champions
*Top Producing Sire of All Time in the World*
AMA Top Producing Sire for
1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002

http://www.marcrismaltese.com/
[/B][/QUOTE]

WOW!! 107 Champions!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

I just read the thread about him in this sub forum...I think almost everyone's baby is related to him..heehee..pretty amazing!!


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## princessre

Given that the gene pool for purebred Maltese is so small (i.e. how so many of the babies on SM are related), I wonder if someone can explain to me why a mixed breed dog shouldn't be healthier. I was just thinking about this because a good family friend just recently got a Pomeranian/Lhasa and she made this point very strongly to me...

And also, given that Risque sired so many dogs, I'm wondering what is safe for a breeder to breed...Like can you breed a cousin but not a half brother? I have no idea what I'm talking about, just thinking out loud and very curious....


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## CeeCee's Mom

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 06:12 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799203


> Given that the gene pool for purebred Maltese is so small (i.e. how so many of the babies on SM are related), I wonder if someone can explain to me why a mixed breed dog shouldn't be healthier. I was just thinking about this because a good family friend just recently got a Pomeranian/Lhasa and she made this point very strongly to me...
> 
> And also, given that Risque sired so many dogs, I'm wondering what is safe for a breeder to breed...Like can you breed a cousin but not a half brother? I have no idea what I'm talking about, just thinking out loud and very curious....[/B]


Yes, I know what you are saying and I was wondering the same thing......it is a wonder that our babies do not have two heads and ten legs!!! I wonder how much breeders really understand about how to properly breed. It can get scary when you think about it~~~

I have been thinking and decided to edit myself. When I got married and decided, my husband and myself together that we wanted a child, did I look at our heredity and gene pool and study what would make a really healthy well rounded child......NO! So we take our chances and hope for the best. I really made a broad statement about breeders and most of them are so thoughtful of the dogs that they breed and I know of one specific future breeder on SM that will probably have the best breeding program around because she trys to learn so much and she cares deeply.........so please know that I really realize that you do the best you possibly can with this beautiful breed of dog that is so speical to all of us!!!


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## ckim111

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 07:12 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799203


> Given that the gene pool for purebred Maltese is so small (i.e. how so many of the babies on SM are related), I wonder if someone can explain to me why a mixed breed dog shouldn't be healthier. I was just thinking about this because a good family friend just recently got a Pomeranian/Lhasa and she made this point very strongly to me...
> 
> And also, given that Risque sired so many dogs, I'm wondering what is safe for a breeder to breed...Like can you breed a cousin but not a half brother? I have no idea what I'm talking about, just thinking out loud and very curious....[/B]


I actually tend to agree with your family friend. Just because a dog is mixed doesn't mean that they are any less healthy than a purebred dog. What if you took a maltese with champion lines that has no health issues, and bred it with a yorkie with a same background. Why would this dog now all of a sudden be deemed unhealthy? It's one thing if these dogs or their ancestors have/had a lot of health issues, but mixed breeding especially with similar sized dogs shouldn't cause problems. But then again I'm not a vet so what do I know


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## 08chrissy08

I think a lot of the issue with mixed breed health issues is that the chances of finding a person doing the same kinds of health checks and background checks with their breeding dogs as a reputable pure bred dog breeder is slim to none. Most mixed breed dogs are simply either accidents or a "greeder" breeding designer dogs for money. Their parantage is uncertain, often from pet stores or byb or puppymills, so who knows which health problems the pups may pick up. Some may get none, others may get every health problem that ever popped up in both parents lines. I think if a reputable breeder bred two exceptional well bred dogs of different breeds, you probably would get healthy puppies though no one could really predict what they would be like. Might look like mom, might look like dad, might look like a little of both. Heck might not anything like either, stranger things have happened!


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (08chrissy08 @ Jul 1 2009, 08:12 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799314


> I think a lot of the issue with mixed breed health issues is that the chances of finding a person doing the same kinds of health checks and background checks with their breeding dogs as a reputable pure bred dog breeder is slim to none. Most mixed breed dogs are simply either accidents or a "greeder" breeding designer dogs for money. Their parantage is uncertain, often from pet stores or byb or puppymills, so who knows which health problems the pups may pick up. Some may get none, others may get every health problem that ever popped up in both parents lines. I think if a reputable breeder bred two exceptional well bred dogs of different breeds, you probably would get healthy puppies though no one could really predict what they would be like. Might look like mom, might look like dad, might look like a little of both. Heck might not anything like either, stranger things have happened![/B]


I agree, i think there isn't enough 'data' out there because the bottom line is reputable breeders do not breed two breeds together, so your sample data is a bit one-sided. Ok make that a lot one-sided.

I also think this is a discussion with no clear 'winner' because at the end of the day, it all comes down to the individual dogs and their genetic pre-disposition. Not that fact that one is purebred, one is a mixed breed.

Many of our maltese are line-bred, _not_ in-bred so it is important to make that distinction! (before you speculate how 'safe' it is) Here is a good article that clarifies the difference between close line-breeding and in-breeding
http://www.bulldoginformation.com/breeding-types.html

Hope that helps!


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## lovesophie

I've noticed in some pedigrees that Risque was bred to his own daughter. Isn't that considered inbreeding? I would assume that this was done to lock in particular traits, but isn't inbreeding considered risky (no pun intended)?


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 1 2009, 09:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799356


> I've noticed in some pedigrees that Risque was bred to his own daughter. Isn't that considered inbreeding? I would assume that this was done to lock in particular traits, but isn't inbreeding considered risky (no pun intended)?[/B]


That's why i said most of our maltese, LOL. It's also why they say in the article that that tight of breeding is not for the novice breeder - and truer words were never spoken.


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## princessre

That's amazing that inbreeding can be okay if you are a very advanced breeder! I've never even contemplated the possibility of that.


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## Cosy

Yes, it's too hopefully double up on some postive traits and should only be done after careful study of pedigrees.
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 01:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799469


> That's amazing that inbreeding can be okay if you are a very advanced breeder! I've never even contemplated the possibility of that.[/B]


Are you trying to suggest something here? Please remember this is a public forum and your words can and are read by many breeders. 

If you want to make little comments and suggest that someone has done something that you consider unethical or 'wrong', make sure you know your argument pretty well. Personally, I know that I do not know my lines well enough at all to make an argument for breeding my dogs so close, but I'm a novice and i readily admit that. But i also wouldnt' dream of passing judgement on others who have been around for a long time and know their lines extremely well. Their actions have shaped the breed as we know it today. 

Sorry if I'm coming across rude, I'm not trying to be. I jsut try to look at all sides.


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## princessre

:huh: I'm confused. All I did was basically quote both YOU and the ARTICLE you included almost VER BATIM. How is that implying anything but what you said?

This is what your article said:
"Inbreeding is the mating of very close relatives, for example, father to daughter, half-brother to half-sister, brother to sister, mother to son, etc.
Inbreeding intensifies the faults as well as the strong points, so considerable discretion must be used in the choice of the dogs. The faults may be to such an extent, that, sometimes, entire litters have to be destroyed in cases where obvious anomalies occur. *For this reason, this type of breeding is not recommended to novice breeders.*
Sometimes, in-breeding is the only option available, for example, in the re-creation of a nearly extinct breed or in breeding programs of newly created breeds."

This is what you said:
QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 1 2009, 12:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799361


> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 1 2009, 09:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799356





> I've noticed in some pedigrees that Risque was bred to his own daughter. Isn't that considered inbreeding? I would assume that this was done to lock in particular traits, but isn't inbreeding considered risky (no pun intended)?[/B]


That's why i said most of our maltese, LOL.* It's also why they say in the article that that tight of breeding is not for the novice breeder - and truer words were never spoken*.
[/B][/QUOTE]

This is your response to me quoting you back to you:
QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 1 2009, 05:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799491


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 01:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799469





> *That's amazing that inbreeding can be okay if you are a very advanced breeder*! I've never even contemplated the possibility of that.[/B]


Are you trying to suggest something here? Please remember this is a public forum and your words can and are read by many breeders. 

*If you want to make little comments and suggest that someone has done something that you consider unethical or 'wrong', make sure you know your argument pretty well.* Personally, I know that I do not know my lines well enough at all to make an argument for breeding my dogs so close, but I'm a novice and i readily admit that. *But i also wouldnt' dream of passing judgement on others who have been around for a long time and know their lines extremely well. * Their actions have shaped the breed as we know it today. 

Sorry if I'm coming across rude, I'm not trying to be. I jsut try to look at all sides.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm here purely to learn. I didn't pass judgment. I was quoting you.


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 02:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799502


> :huh: I'm confused. All I did was basically quote both YOU and the ARTICLE you included almost VER BATIM. How is that implying anything but what you said?
> 
> This is what your article said:
> "Inbreeding is the mating of very close relatives, for example, father to daughter, half-brother to half-sister, brother to sister, mother to son, etc.
> Inbreeding intensifies the faults as well as the strong points, so considerable discretion must be used in the choice of the dogs. The faults may be to such an extent, that, sometimes, entire litters have to be destroyed in cases where obvious anomalies occur. *For this reason, this type of breeding is not recommended to novice breeders.*
> Sometimes, in-breeding is the only option available, for example, in the re-creation of a nearly extinct breed or in breeding programs of newly created breeds."
> 
> This is what you said:
> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 1 2009, 12:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799361





> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 1 2009, 09:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799356





> I've noticed in some pedigrees that Risque was bred to his own daughter. Isn't that considered inbreeding? I would assume that this was done to lock in particular traits, but isn't inbreeding considered risky (no pun intended)?[/B]


That's why i said most of our maltese, LOL.* It's also why they say in the article that that tight of breeding is not for the novice breeder - and truer words were never spoken*.
[/B][/QUOTE]

This is your response to me quoting you back to you:
QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 1 2009, 05:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799491


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 01:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799469





> *That's amazing that inbreeding can be okay if you are a very advanced breeder*! I've never even contemplated the possibility of that.[/B]


Are you trying to suggest something here? Please remember this is a public forum and your words can and are read by many breeders. 

*If you want to make little comments and suggest that someone has done something that you consider unethical or 'wrong', make sure you know your argument pretty well.* Personally, I know that I do not know my lines well enough at all to make an argument for breeding my dogs so close, but I'm a novice and i readily admit that. *But i also wouldnt' dream of passing judgement on others who have been around for a long time and know their lines extremely well. * Their actions have shaped the breed as we know it today. 

Sorry if I'm coming across rude, I'm not trying to be. I jsut try to look at all sides.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm here purely to learn. I didn't pass judgment. I was quoting you.
[/B][/QUOTE]

My apologies then.


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## princessre

One thing I wonder is how similar to human vs. dog genetics laws? For example, bigger human nose dominates smaller human nose. Dark hair dominates light hair. Dark skin dominates light skin. Brown eyes dominate every other color eyes. So if I were breeding humans and I wanted a small head and small nose LOL, then I would never use a mother or father that had a big head or big nose. Is this true of Maltese too? I'm curious what are the dominant vs. recessive traits of Maltese? Like is long muzzle dominant over short muzzle? Is dark pigmentation dominant or recessive over light pigmentation?


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## MaryH

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 07:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799550


> One thing I wonder is how similar to human vs. dog genetics laws? For example, bigger human nose dominates smaller human nose. Dark hair dominates light hair. Dark skin dominates light skin. Brown eyes dominate every other color eyes. So if I were breeding humans and I wanted a small head and small nose LOL, then I would never use a mother or father that had a big head or big nose. Is this true of Maltese too? I'm curious what are the dominant vs. recessive traits of Maltese? Like is long muzzle dominant over short muzzle? Is dark pigmentation dominant or recessive over light pigmentation?[/B]


Genetics works the same for humans and dogs. Each cell contains chromosomes which come in pairs; humans have 23 pairs, dogs have 39 pairs. Each chromosome contains many genes and each gene, like each chromosome, comes in pairs. Claudia Waller Orlandi, author of _ABC's of Breeding, What Every Dog Breeder Should Know!_, uses a great analogy for helping people to understand genetics. Summarizing her explanation, think of each cell as a room in which 2 alternative bookcases of architect's plans on how to build a dog are found in each cell nucleus. Each bookcase contains a 39 volume set of building plans, one set (Volumes 1a-39a) having come from the sire and one set (Volumes 1b-39b) from the dam. The volumes represent the chromosomes and the pages in each volume represent the genes. During reproduction the sperm cell and the egg cell each divide in half and keep only one full set of 39 volumes with some of the volumes (chromosomes) coming from the "a" bookcase and some coming from the "b" bookcase. So now you have an egg cell with a whole new set of volumes and a sperm cell with a whole new set of volumes. During the division of sperm cell and egg cell, not only do the volumes from each bookcase shuffle and combine to form a new bookcase of 39 volumes (chromosomes) but the pages (genes) within each volume shuffle and combine to form a new set of pages within each volume. Sperm cell fertilizes egg cell and each contributes their one new bookcase of 39 volumes to the new puppy. The formation of each puppy requires one egg cell and one sperm cell. So if a dam gives birth to one puppy the shuffle and combine routine happens once. For a dam to give birth to four puppies it requires four egg cells and four sperm cells and so the shuffle and combine routine happens four times. Each shuffle and combine routine is completely different than the others so no two puppies with ever have the identical genetic makeup as any other puppy in the litter (except for the case of identical twins which rarely happens in canine reproduction). The same applies to humans in that no two or more siblings will ever have the same genetic makeup except in the case of identical twins.

About dominant vs. recessive -- way too complicated to get into here except to say that even though both parents may exhibit the same trait (phenotype) and that trait may be considered dominant, depending on the genetic makeup (genotype) of the sire and the dam there could be a 25% chance that a puppy may not have that trait. A good explanation for why two brown-eyed parents can produce a blue-eyed child can be found at http://www.thetech.org/genetics/art03_family.php. A google search for Gregor Mendel (the father of genetics) will lead you to probably more genetic explanations than you would ever want to read.

MaryH


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## MaryH

QUOTE (CeeCee's Mom @ Jul 1 2009, 07:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799211


> Yes, I know what you are saying and I was wondering the same thing......it is a wonder that our babies do not have two heads and ten legs!!! I wonder how much breeders really understand about how to properly breed. It can get scary when you think about it~~~
> 
> I have been thinking and decided to edit myself. When I got married and decided, my husband and myself together that we wanted a child, did I look at our heredity and gene pool and study what would make a really healthy well rounded child......NO! So we take our chances and hope for the best. I really made a broad statement about breeders and most of them are so thoughtful of the dogs that they breed and I know of one specific future breeder on SM that will probably have the best breeding program around because she trys to learn so much and she cares deeply.........so please know that I really realize that you do the best you possibly can with this beautiful breed of dog that is so speical to all of us!!![/B]


What a nice post! Thank you so much for giving well-deserved recognition to the new breeders and possible future breeders on this forum who are investing so much time, effort and money in learning all that they can learn in an effort to do right by this beautiful breed of dog that is so special to all of us.

MaryH


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## princessre

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 1 2009, 10:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799667


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 07:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799550





> One thing I wonder is how similar to human vs. dog genetics laws? For example, bigger human nose dominates smaller human nose. Dark hair dominates light hair. Dark skin dominates light skin. Brown eyes dominate every other color eyes. So if I were breeding humans and I wanted a small head and small nose LOL, then I would never use a mother or father that had a big head or big nose. Is this true of Maltese too? I'm curious what are the dominant vs. recessive traits of Maltese? Like is long muzzle dominant over short muzzle? Is dark pigmentation dominant or recessive over light pigmentation?[/B]


Genetics works the same for humans and dogs. Each cell contains chromosomes which come in pairs; humans have 23 pairs, dogs have 39 pairs. Each chromosome contains many genes and each gene, like each chromosome, comes in pairs. Claudia Waller Orlandi, author of _ABC's of Breeding, What Every Dog Breeder Should Know!_, uses a great analogy for helping people to understand genetics. Summarizing her explanation, think of each cell as a room in which 2 alternative bookcases of architect's plans on how to build a dog are found in each cell nucleus. Each bookcase contains a 39 volume set of building plans, one set (Volumes 1a-39a) having come from the sire and one set (Volumes 1b-39b) from the dam. The volumes represent the chromosomes and the pages in each volume represent the genes. During reproduction the sperm cell and the egg cell each divide in half and keep only one full set of 39 volumes with some of the volumes (chromosomes) coming from the "a" bookcase and some coming from the "b" bookcase. So now you have an egg cell with a whole new set of volumes and a sperm cell with a whole new set of volumes. During the division of sperm cell and egg cell, not only do the volumes from each bookcase shuffle and combine to form a new bookcase of 39 volumes (chromosomes) but the pages (genes) within each volume shuffle and combine to form a new set of pages within each volume. Sperm cell fertilizes egg cell and each contributes their one new bookcase of 39 volumes to the new puppy. The formation of each puppy requires one egg cell and one sperm cell. So if a dam gives birth to one puppy the shuffle and combine routine happens once. For a dam to give birth to four puppies it requires four egg cells and four sperm cells and so the shuffle and combine routine happens four times. Each shuffle and combine routine is completely different than the others so no two puppies with ever have the identical genetic makeup as any other puppy in the litter (except for the case of identical twins which rarely happens in canine reproduction). The same applies to humans in that no two or more siblings will ever have the same genetic makeup except in the case of identical twins.

About dominant vs. recessive -- way too complicated to get into here except to say that even though both parents may exhibit the same trait (phenotype) and that trait may be considered dominant, depending on the genetic makeup (genotype) of the sire and the dam there could be a 25% chance that a puppy may not have that trait. A good explanation for why two brown-eyed parents can produce a blue-eyed child can be found at http://www.thetech.org/genetics/art03_family.php. A google search for Gregor Mendel (the father of genetics) will lead you to probably more genetic explanations than you would ever want to read.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]


Thank you for the explanation! So the transcription process works the same way in dogs-that's cool! I agree about the 25% chance that Rr x Rr could be rr. I guess I just wondered which Maltese phenotypic traits were considered dominant (RR, Rr, rR) like brown eyes and which recessive (rr), like red hair.


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## MaryH

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 11:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799687


> Thank you for the explanation! So the transcription process works the same way in dogs-that's cool! I agree about the 25% chance that Rr x Rr could be rr. I guess I just wondered which Maltese phenotypic traits were considered dominant (RR, Rr, rR) like brown eyes and which recessive (rr), like red hair.[/B]


I'm not sure how to answer your question because I'm no longer sure what the question really is. You asked about basic genetic principles -- "how similar to human vs. dog genetics" -- and then you come back after my response using the term "transcription process." I would have to think that anyone familiar with the term "transcription process" would certainly know the answer to your first, very elementary, question of the similarites in human vs. dog genetics. Not to be rude, but is this some sort of trick quiz?

MaryH


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## myfairlacy

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 06:12 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799203


> Given that the gene pool for purebred Maltese is so small (i.e. how so many of the babies on SM are related), I wonder if someone can explain to me why a mixed breed dog shouldn't be healthier. I was just thinking about this because a good family friend just recently got a Pomeranian/Lhasa and she made this point very strongly to me...
> 
> And also, given that Risque sired so many dogs, I'm wondering what is safe for a breeder to breed...Like can you breed a cousin but not a half brother? I have no idea what I'm talking about, just thinking out loud and very curious....[/B]


I think the average "heinz 57" mutts are healthier than purebreds on average..but I do not think that "designer dogs" (ie. one purebred to another purebred breedings) are healthier. People that purposely breed mixes have pet quality dogs to begin with and if they mix these two dogs you really have just as much chance of having a health issue as if you bred purebred dogs. Many toy breeds have similar health issues so breeding them together still gives you a risk for health issues. And sometimes when people breed two completely different breeds together, the dog turns out to be a health disaster..what if the dog gets the worst traits from both breeds instead of the best?


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## princessre

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 12:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799730


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 11:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799687





> Thank you for the explanation! So the transcription process works the same way in dogs-that's cool! I agree about the 25% chance that Rr x Rr could be rr. I guess I just wondered which Maltese phenotypic traits were considered dominant (RR, Rr, rR) like brown eyes and which recessive (rr), like red hair.[/B]


I'm not sure how to answer your question because I'm no longer sure what the question really is. You asked about basic genetic principles -- "how similar to human vs. dog genetics" -- and then you come back after my response using the term "transcription process." I would have to think that anyone familiar with the term "transcription process" would certainly know the answer to your first, very elementary, question of the similarites in human vs. dog genetics. Not to be rude, but is this some sort of trick quiz?

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Gosh, no! Apologies that it came across to you like that- it's not a trick quiz at all. I really appreciated your explanation. Just when you described it, I had a flood of memories back from AP Bio which was my favorite subject in HS which made me remember transcription. I asked two separate questions. First, are dog and human genetics similar- do the same laws apply? Otherwise I won't bother trying to learn about it because I learned human genetics, not dog genetics. Second, what are dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese? Since your description made the principles sound similar, I just asked again which dog traits were recessive...That's all! 

I have heard that alot of diseases are recessive which is why breeders have to know what they're doing. But I am also looking for a girl puppy in the near future and would like to know, if possible, from looking at the parents' features what specific conclusions I might draw from looking at the parents beyond the usual "the puppy might look like the parents or they might not and one puppy from a litter might even look nothing like another dog from the same litter," especially since I have little experience evaluating a puppy's looks. 

Just as a hypothetical, let's say having a straight, silky coat is a recessive trait. If I see both parents and they both have a straight, silky coat; then for sure it seems that the pup will definitely have a straight, silky coat when she grows up because it's a recessive trait in my hypothetical, i.e. rr x rr can only be rr. Or let's say having halos is a dominant trait and only the sire has it. Then I would have no idea if the pup would develop halos because we know the mom is rr, but the Dad could be Rr or RR. If the Dad is Rr, then there's only 25% chance of Rr (halos), 75% rr (no halo). But if the Dad is RR, then there is 100% chance of Rr (halos). But since we don't know what genetic makeup is the Dad in halos (we just know that he has them), we can't make any firm conclusions about the puppies...

I know not all physical traits on a Malt can be traced to this simple a deductive process (e.g. a few pages back, I mentioned what my bio teacher said which is that genes for human height is determined by 12 different allelles), but I think prospective pet owners could be helped by asking themselves what traits are important to them and possibly being able to make some conclusions based on some understanding of dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese dogs.


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## MaryH

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 2 2009, 06:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799782


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 12:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799730





> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 11:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799687





> Thank you for the explanation! So the transcription process works the same way in dogs-that's cool! I agree about the 25% chance that Rr x Rr could be rr. I guess I just wondered which Maltese phenotypic traits were considered dominant (RR, Rr, rR) like brown eyes and which recessive (rr), like red hair.[/B]


I'm not sure how to answer your question because I'm no longer sure what the question really is. You asked about basic genetic principles -- "how similar to human vs. dog genetics" -- and then you come back after my response using the term "transcription process." I would have to think that anyone familiar with the term "transcription process" would certainly know the answer to your first, very elementary, question of the similarites in human vs. dog genetics. Not to be rude, but is this some sort of trick quiz?

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Gosh, no! Apologies that it came across to you like that- it's not a trick quiz at all. I really appreciated your explanation. Just when you described it, I had a flood of memories back from AP Bio which was my favorite subject in HS which made me remember transcription. I asked two separate questions. First, are dog and human genetics similar- do the same laws apply? Otherwise I won't bother trying to learn about it because I learned human genetics, not dog genetics. Second, what are dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese? Since your description made the principles sound similar, I just asked again which dog traits were recessive...That's all! 

I have heard that alot of diseases are recessive which is why breeders have to know what they're doing. But I am also looking for a girl puppy in the near future and would like to know, if possible, from looking at the parents' features what specific conclusions I might draw from looking at the parents beyond the usual "the puppy might look like the parents or they might not and one puppy from a litter might even look nothing like another dog from the same litter," especially since I have little experience evaluating a puppy's looks. 

Just as a hypothetical, let's say having a straight, silky coat is a recessive trait. If I see both parents and they both have a straight, silky coat; then for sure it seems that the pup will definitely have a straight, silky coat when she grows up because it's a recessive trait in my hypothetical, i.e. rr x rr can only be rr. Or let's say having halos is a dominant trait and only the sire has it. Then I would have no idea if the pup would develop halos because we know the mom is rr, but the Dad could be Rr or RR. If the Dad is Rr, then there's only 25% chance of Rr (halos), 75% rr (no halo). But if the Dad is RR, then there is 100% chance of Rr (halos). But since we don't know what genetic makeup is the Dad in halos (we just know that he has them), we can't make any firm conclusions about the puppies...

I know not all physical traits on a Malt can be traced to this simple a deductive process (e.g. a few pages back, I mentioned what my bio teacher said which is that genes for human height is determined by 12 different allelles), but I think prospective pet owners could be helped by asking themselves what traits are important to them and possibly being able to make some conclusions based on some understanding of dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]

As a pet owner I would be more concerned about temperament and the genetic experts still cannot decide how much genetics plays into that, let alone whether it is a domintant or recessive trait. If you want a straight silky coat for your pet then get a straightening iron. Halos are not even a part of the Maltese breed standard but if you must have them get your dog out in the sun or get some brown eye shadow. In the short time that you have been a member of this forum you have slammed breeders outright, you have slammed them by inuendo, and when called on the carpet you feign innocence. I don't mind sharing information but I have neither the time nor the interest in playing games.

MaryH


----------



## princessre

Wow. I have not slammed anyone, ever, and feel unfairly characterized in this regard. I have always tried to be respectful and even-handed when asking my many questions and stating my limited experience. I'm sorry that my curiosity and sharing of some sub-optimal first-hand experiences with two breeders have *apparently* caused so much distrust from you. It's absolutely your perogative not to respond to me if you are allergic to me, but suggesting brown eyeshadow is not being polite to anyone.

:back2topic: (if there's anyone left), I feel burned from this thread, but if anyone has a chart they could share now or in the future like the one posted below, I would love to see it. Otherwise, adios!


QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799798


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 2 2009, 06:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799782





> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 12:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799730





> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 11:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799687





> Thank you for the explanation! So the transcription process works the same way in dogs-that's cool! I agree about the 25% chance that Rr x Rr could be rr. I guess I just wondered which Maltese phenotypic traits were considered dominant (RR, Rr, rR) like brown eyes and which recessive (rr), like red hair.[/B]


I'm not sure how to answer your question because I'm no longer sure what the question really is. You asked about basic genetic principles -- "how similar to human vs. dog genetics" -- and then you come back after my response using the term "transcription process." I would have to think that anyone familiar with the term "transcription process" would certainly know the answer to your first, very elementary, question of the similarites in human vs. dog genetics. Not to be rude, but is this some sort of trick quiz?

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Gosh, no! Apologies that it came across to you like that- it's not a trick quiz at all. I really appreciated your explanation. Just when you described it, I had a flood of memories back from AP Bio which was my favorite subject in HS which made me remember transcription. I asked two separate questions. First, are dog and human genetics similar- do the same laws apply? Otherwise I won't bother trying to learn about it because I learned human genetics, not dog genetics. Second, what are dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese? Since your description made the principles sound similar, I just asked again which dog traits were recessive...That's all! 

I have heard that alot of diseases are recessive which is why breeders have to know what they're doing. But I am also looking for a girl puppy in the near future and would like to know, if possible, from looking at the parents' features what specific conclusions I might draw from looking at the parents beyond the usual "the puppy might look like the parents or they might not and one puppy from a litter might even look nothing like another dog from the same litter," especially since I have little experience evaluating a puppy's looks. 

Just as a hypothetical, let's say having a straight, silky coat is a recessive trait. If I see both parents and they both have a straight, silky coat; then for sure it seems that the pup will definitely have a straight, silky coat when she grows up because it's a recessive trait in my hypothetical, i.e. rr x rr can only be rr. Or let's say having halos is a dominant trait and only the sire has it. Then I would have no idea if the pup would develop halos because we know the mom is rr, but the Dad could be Rr or RR. If the Dad is Rr, then there's only 25% chance of Rr (halos), 75% rr (no halo). But if the Dad is RR, then there is 100% chance of Rr (halos). But since we don't know what genetic makeup is the Dad in halos (we just know that he has them), we can't make any firm conclusions about the puppies...

I know not all physical traits on a Malt can be traced to this simple a deductive process (e.g. a few pages back, I mentioned what my bio teacher said which is that genes for human height is determined by 12 different allelles), but I think prospective pet owners could be helped by asking themselves what traits are important to them and possibly being able to make some conclusions based on some understanding of dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]

As a pet owner I would be more concerned about temperament and the genetic experts still cannot decide how much genetics plays into that, let alone whether it is a domintant or recessive trait. If you want a straight silky coat for your pet then get a straightening iron. Halos are not even a part of the Maltese breed standard but if you must have them get your dog out in the sun or get some brown eye shadow. In the short time that you have been a member of this forum you have slammed breeders outright, you have slammed them by inuendo, and when called on the carpet you feign innocence. I don't mind sharing information but I have neither the time nor the interest in playing games.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 09:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799798


> As a pet owner I would be more concerned about temperament and the genetic experts still cannot decide how much genetics plays into that, let alone whether it is a domintant or recessive trait. If you want a straight silky coat for your pet then get a straightening iron. Halos are not even a part of the Maltese breed standard but if you must have them get your dog out in the sun or get some brown eye shadow. In the short time that you have been a member of this forum you have slammed breeders outright, you have slammed them by inuendo, and when called on the carpet you feign innocence. I don't mind sharing information but I have neither the time nor the interest in playing games.
> 
> MaryH[/B]



I have learned and appreciated your input, thanks MaryH


----------



## MaryH

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 2 2009, 08:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799817


> but if anyone has a chart they could share now or in the future like the one posted below, I would love to see it. Otherwise, adios![/B]


The chart you posted is from an older version of Claudia Orlandi's book that I made reference to earlier. In her latest version the same chart appears on p. 47 but has been revised to say "Some Reported Dominant Traits" and "Some Reported Recessive Traits." And on p. 46 she says under the heading *Dominant & Recessive Traits* the following: "The following page lists some dominant and recessive traits that have been reported in the literature (see Willis, 1989, 1992, and Seranne, p 51). Although geneticists and breeders agree upon some traits, research is lacking on most conformation and behavioral traits that are of interest to dog breeders. For example, the jury is still out on whether shyness, aggression and outgoing temperament are dominant or recessive. Environment also affects these traits. Some of the traits listed are incomplete dominants and some are linked." (Emphasis added by Orlandi, not me.) Obviously, you have Claudia's book or have immediate access to it. Seems to be another game piece.

MaryH


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## princessre

I DON'T have the book. Here's the link with the blurred out chart - top 3rd google search "what every dog breeder should know" (I looked it up b/c you mentioned it and I was going to buy it)

http://www.cobankopegi.com/blog/2005/10/wh...hould-know.html

okay i really can't post in this thread anymore. conflicts shorten my life and i'm curious about dog genetics, but not curious enough to shorten my life...LOL


----------



## ckim111

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799798


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 2 2009, 06:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799782





> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 12:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799730





> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 11:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799687





> Thank you for the explanation! So the transcription process works the same way in dogs-that's cool! I agree about the 25% chance that Rr x Rr could be rr. I guess I just wondered which Maltese phenotypic traits were considered dominant (RR, Rr, rR) like brown eyes and which recessive (rr), like red hair.[/B]


I'm not sure how to answer your question because I'm no longer sure what the question really is. You asked about basic genetic principles -- "how similar to human vs. dog genetics" -- and then you come back after my response using the term "transcription process." I would have to think that anyone familiar with the term "transcription process" would certainly know the answer to your first, very elementary, question of the similarites in human vs. dog genetics. Not to be rude, but is this some sort of trick quiz?

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Gosh, no! Apologies that it came across to you like that- it's not a trick quiz at all. I really appreciated your explanation. Just when you described it, I had a flood of memories back from AP Bio which was my favorite subject in HS which made me remember transcription. I asked two separate questions. First, are dog and human genetics similar- do the same laws apply? Otherwise I won't bother trying to learn about it because I learned human genetics, not dog genetics. Second, what are dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese? Since your description made the principles sound similar, I just asked again which dog traits were recessive...That's all! 

I have heard that alot of diseases are recessive which is why breeders have to know what they're doing. But I am also looking for a girl puppy in the near future and would like to know, if possible, from looking at the parents' features what specific conclusions I might draw from looking at the parents beyond the usual "the puppy might look like the parents or they might not and one puppy from a litter might even look nothing like another dog from the same litter," especially since I have little experience evaluating a puppy's looks. 

Just as a hypothetical, let's say having a straight, silky coat is a recessive trait. If I see both parents and they both have a straight, silky coat; then for sure it seems that the pup will definitely have a straight, silky coat when she grows up because it's a recessive trait in my hypothetical, i.e. rr x rr can only be rr. Or let's say having halos is a dominant trait and only the sire has it. Then I would have no idea if the pup would develop halos because we know the mom is rr, but the Dad could be Rr or RR. If the Dad is Rr, then there's only 25% chance of Rr (halos), 75% rr (no halo). But if the Dad is RR, then there is 100% chance of Rr (halos). But since we don't know what genetic makeup is the Dad in halos (we just know that he has them), we can't make any firm conclusions about the puppies...

I know not all physical traits on a Malt can be traced to this simple a deductive process (e.g. a few pages back, I mentioned what my bio teacher said which is that genes for human height is determined by 12 different allelles), but I think prospective pet owners could be helped by asking themselves what traits are important to them and possibly being able to make some conclusions based on some understanding of dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]

As a pet owner I would be more concerned about temperament and the genetic experts still cannot decide how much genetics plays into that, let alone whether it is a domintant or recessive trait. If you want a straight silky coat for your pet then get a straightening iron. Halos are not even a part of the Maltese breed standard but if you must have them get your dog out in the sun or get some brown eye shadow. In the short time that you have been a member of this forum you have slammed breeders outright, you have slammed them by inuendo, and when called on the carpet you feign innocence. I don't mind sharing information but I have neither the time nor the interest in playing games.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi MaryH,

Not trying to stir up any trouble here, but this is a forum. A forum is a place where people can and should be able to ask questions, make comments, etc. Perhaps I am too dumb to fully comprehend the whole genetics discussion, but I really think princessre was trying to understand the process. Although I don't post much here and I do read many posts on this forum. I personally have never read princessre slam breeders outright. During the times she did talk about less than positive experience with breeders, those were her own experiences. I don't recall her ever saying that they were bad people. Reading responses like these make me think twice about posting my honest opinions or questions. People's demeanor can come across the wrong way especially in writing. 

To keep this place a "friendly" environment, I do ask that any direct personal attacks be refrained. If you must, please use the PM system. I think we all have enough conflicts and problems to deal with outside of the cyberspace. 

As Rodney King stated, "Can't we all get along?"  :grouphug:


----------



## rosietoby

QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 2 2009, 10:10 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799848


> Hi MaryH,
> 
> Not trying to stir up any trouble here, but this is a forum. A forum is a place where people can and should be able to ask questions, make comments, etc. Perhaps I am too dumb to fully comprehend the whole genetics discussion, but I really think princessre was trying to understand the process. Although I don't post much here and I do read many posts on this forum. I personally have never read princessre slam breeders outright. During the times she did talk about less than positive experience with breeders, those were her own experiences. I don't recall her ever saying that they were bad people. Reading responses like these make me think twice about posting my honest opinions or questions. People's demeanor can come across the wrong way especially in writing.
> 
> To keep this place a "friendly" environment, I do ask that any direct personal attacks be refrained. If you must, please use the PM system. I think we all have enough conflicts and problems to deal with outside of the cyberspace.
> 
> As Rodney King stated, "Can't we all get along?"  :grouphug:[/B]


I second that. I have never seen princessre ever talk badly about anyone.
Robin


----------



## roxybaby22

QUOTE (RosieToby @ Jul 2 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799909


> QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 2 2009, 10:10 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799848





> Hi MaryH,
> 
> Not trying to stir up any trouble here, but this is a forum. A forum is a place where people can and should be able to ask questions, make comments, etc. Perhaps I am too dumb to fully comprehend the whole genetics discussion, but I really think princessre was trying to understand the process. Although I don't post much here and I do read many posts on this forum. I personally have never read princessre slam breeders outright. During the times she did talk about less than positive experience with breeders, those were her own experiences. I don't recall her ever saying that they were bad people. Reading responses like these make me think twice about posting my honest opinions or questions. People's demeanor can come across the wrong way especially in writing.
> 
> To keep this place a "friendly" environment, I do ask that any direct personal attacks be refrained. If you must, please use the PM system. I think we all have enough conflicts and problems to deal with outside of the cyberspace.
> 
> As Rodney King stated, "Can't we all get along?"  :grouphug:[/B]


I second that. I have never seen princessre ever talk badly about anyone.
Robin
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, I think she was wrongfully attacked. Sophia, I'm sorry you had to deal with that, but you handled yourself well.

Maybe we should get back to topic.


----------



## MandyMc65

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 04:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799798


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 2 2009, 06:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799782





> QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 12:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799730





> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 1 2009, 11:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799687





> Thank you for the explanation! So the transcription process works the same way in dogs-that's cool! I agree about the 25% chance that Rr x Rr could be rr. I guess I just wondered which Maltese phenotypic traits were considered dominant (RR, Rr, rR) like brown eyes and which recessive (rr), like red hair.[/B]


I'm not sure how to answer your question because I'm no longer sure what the question really is. You asked about basic genetic principles -- "how similar to human vs. dog genetics" -- and then you come back after my response using the term "transcription process." I would have to think that anyone familiar with the term "transcription process" would certainly know the answer to your first, very elementary, question of the similarites in human vs. dog genetics. Not to be rude, but is this some sort of trick quiz?

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Gosh, no! Apologies that it came across to you like that- it's not a trick quiz at all. I really appreciated your explanation. Just when you described it, I had a flood of memories back from AP Bio which was my favorite subject in HS which made me remember transcription. I asked two separate questions. First, are dog and human genetics similar- do the same laws apply? Otherwise I won't bother trying to learn about it because I learned human genetics, not dog genetics. Second, what are dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese? Since your description made the principles sound similar, I just asked again which dog traits were recessive...That's all! 

I have heard that alot of diseases are recessive which is why breeders have to know what they're doing. But I am also looking for a girl puppy in the near future and would like to know, if possible, from looking at the parents' features what specific conclusions I might draw from looking at the parents beyond the usual "the puppy might look like the parents or they might not and one puppy from a litter might even look nothing like another dog from the same litter," especially since I have little experience evaluating a puppy's looks. 

Just as a hypothetical, let's say having a straight, silky coat is a recessive trait. If I see both parents and they both have a straight, silky coat; then for sure it seems that the pup will definitely have a straight, silky coat when she grows up because it's a recessive trait in my hypothetical, i.e. rr x rr can only be rr. Or let's say having halos is a dominant trait and only the sire has it. Then I would have no idea if the pup would develop halos because we know the mom is rr, but the Dad could be Rr or RR. If the Dad is Rr, then there's only 25% chance of Rr (halos), 75% rr (no halo). But if the Dad is RR, then there is 100% chance of Rr (halos). But since we don't know what genetic makeup is the Dad in halos (we just know that he has them), we can't make any firm conclusions about the puppies...

I know not all physical traits on a Malt can be traced to this simple a deductive process (e.g. a few pages back, I mentioned what my bio teacher said which is that genes for human height is determined by 12 different allelles), but I think prospective pet owners could be helped by asking themselves what traits are important to them and possibly being able to make some conclusions based on some understanding of dominant vs. recessive traits in Maltese dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]

*As a pet owner I would be more concerned about temperament *and the genetic experts still cannot decide how much genetics plays into that, let alone whether it is a domintant or recessive trait. If you want a straight silky coat for your pet then get a straightening iron. Halos are not even a part of the Maltese breed standard but if you must have them get your dog out in the sun or get some brown eye shadow. In the short time that you have been a member of this forum you have slammed breeders outright, you have slammed them by inuendo, and when called on the carpet you feign innocence. I don't mind sharing information but I have neither the time nor the interest in playing games.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost: 

Mary,
Thank you for taking the time to explain what genetics are known and how breeder's get their looks and the looks they desire!


----------



## LUCY N PETS

QUOTE (roxybaby22 @ Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799928


> QUOTE (RosieToby @ Jul 2 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799909





> QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 2 2009, 10:10 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799848





> Hi MaryH,
> 
> Not trying to stir up any trouble here, but this is a forum. A forum is a place where people can and should be able to ask questions, make comments, etc. Perhaps I am too dumb to fully comprehend the whole genetics discussion, but I really think princessre was trying to understand the process. Although I don't post much here and I do read many posts on this forum. I personally have never read princessre slam breeders outright. During the times she did talk about less than positive experience with breeders, those were her own experiences. I don't recall her ever saying that they were bad people. Reading responses like these make me think twice about posting my honest opinions or questions. People's demeanor can come across the wrong way especially in writing.
> 
> To keep this place a "friendly" environment, I do ask that any direct personal attacks be refrained. If you must, please use the PM system. I think we all have enough conflicts and problems to deal with outside of the cyberspace.
> 
> As Rodney King stated, "Can't we all get along?"  :grouphug:[/B]


I second that. I have never seen princessre ever talk badly about anyone.
Robin
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, I think she was wrongfully attacked. Sophia, I'm sorry you had to deal with that, but you handled yourself well.

Maybe we should get back to topic. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

I completely agree get back to the topic, bad mouthing is not appropriate we are here to learn. Not act superior.


----------



## dwerten

i do not know alot about breeding at all but this was passed around to a group i am on and very sad. I can say that my dd is akc and first thing vet said to me as again i have no clue is wow a little bit of inbreeding there well now she has hypothyroid, mvd, atopic dermatitis, luxating patella 4 so cannot help but think maybe this is all tied together as allergies and hypothyroid are autoimmune diseases. Again have no clue on breeding whatsoever but these videos really upset me 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?p=CCBA288E15E...p;v=wbvv0vBf7t8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dc5xAlsRpw...=PL&index=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnN4u7OrYdI...=PL&index=2

This is why if you go to get pet insurance and you have a purebred dog there is a rider to the policy of all the things they will not cover as they consider them predisposed based on the akc site as well as the veterinary medical journal 

i have had a few vets tell me it is because you have a purebred if you want a healthy dog get a dog from the pound  i guess they see it alot with purebreds is why they are saying this. I still love the two breeds yorkie and maltese. This is why it is so important to deal with a reputable breeder.


----------



## LJSquishy

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 2 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799798


> As a pet owner I would be more concerned about temperament and the genetic experts still cannot decide how much genetics plays into that, let alone whether it is a domintant or recessive trait. If you want a straight silky coat for your pet then get a straightening iron. Halos are not even a part of the Maltese breed standard but if you must have them get your dog out in the sun or get some brown eye shadow. In the short time that you have been a member of this forum you have slammed breeders outright, you have slammed them by inuendo, and when called on the carpet you feign innocence. I don't mind sharing information but I have neither the time nor the interest in playing games.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


Excuse me, but I think you are the one who is being rude. Princessre has not said anything uncalled for or derogatory about anyone or anything. She's inquiring about the traits because she wants to learn more about Maltese. What is wrong about asking what the dominant vs recessive traits are in a Maltese? Sheesh.


----------



## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Jul 2 2009, 10:17 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799963


> QUOTE





> As a pet owner I would be more concerned about temperament and the genetic experts still cannot decide how much genetics plays into that, let alone whether it is a domintant or recessive trait. If you want a straight silky coat for your pet then get a straightening iron. Halos are not even a part of the Maltese breed standard but if you must have them get your dog out in the sun or get some brown eye shadow. In the short time that you have been a member of this forum you have slammed breeders outright, you have slammed them by inuendo, and when called on the carpet you feign innocence. I don't mind sharing information but I have neither the time nor the interest in playing games.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


Excuse me, but I think you are the one who is being rude. Princessre has not said anything uncalled for or derogatory about anyone or anything. She's inquiring about the traits because she wants to learn more about Maltese. What is wrong about asking what the dominant vs recessive traits are in a Maltese? Sheesh.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Honestly? I see exactly where Mary is coming from and it's a concern of mine also. I think it's Princessre's phrasing that is ruffling feathers (my own included, although we have talked it out) But as I said, I'm looking at it from the other side also, as well as from being a pet owner.

Sharing firsthand information is great and informative - it's the hearsay and innuendo that can be damaging. Again, I think it's in the phrasing used and since it's written word, it's soo hard to know the original intent.

Just to make another point, MaryH has contributed sooooo much of her vast knowledge to this forum. SO MUCH. And I, for one, appreciate it so much. Thank you Mary! Your pinned post on Bile Acids Testing has been a life-saver for me. 

I also agree that this thread has gone off topic and to the OP, I apologize for my contribution to it.


----------



## puppy lover

QUOTE (LUCY N PETS @ Jul 2 2009, 12:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799940


> QUOTE (roxybaby22 @ Jul 2 2009, 12:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799928





> QUOTE (RosieToby @ Jul 2 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799909





> QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 2 2009, 10:10 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799848





> Hi MaryH,
> 
> Not trying to stir up any trouble here, but this is a forum. A forum is a place where people can and should be able to ask questions, make comments, etc. Perhaps I am too dumb to fully comprehend the whole genetics discussion, but I really think princessre was trying to understand the process. Although I don't post much here and I do read many posts on this forum. I personally have never read princessre slam breeders outright. During the times she did talk about less than positive experience with breeders, those were her own experiences. I don't recall her ever saying that they were bad people. Reading responses like these make me think twice about posting my honest opinions or questions. People's demeanor can come across the wrong way especially in writing.
> 
> To keep this place a "friendly" environment, I do ask that any direct personal attacks be refrained. If you must, please use the PM system. I think we all have enough conflicts and problems to deal with outside of the cyberspace.
> 
> As Rodney King stated, "Can't we all get along?"  :grouphug:[/B]


I second that. I have never seen princessre ever talk badly about anyone.
Robin
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, I think she was wrongfully attacked. Sophia, I'm sorry you had to deal with that, but you handled yourself well.

Maybe we should get back to topic. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

I completely agree get back to the topic, bad mouthing is not appropriate we are here to learn. No act superior.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree too. Plus I was learning a lot from Sophia's questions.! I hope MaryH knows how much her knowledge is appreciated - and also realizes these questions were asked in the spirit of wanting to learn.


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## godiva goddess

MaryH, where is your evidence for accusing Sophia of having possession or access to the book in question, as well as accusing Sophia of conducting a "game piece"? Your various statements have been alleging facts that reflect negatively on Sophia's character. That is defamation- unless you have personal knowledge and/ or evidence to prove the truthulness of your statements.

I personally enjoyed this thread, both Sophia's questions and your repsonses. I know very little about genetics(dogs and human) and I think this topic is very educational and relevant for a Maltese foum. That is also why I liked reading your input. You are obviously very knowledgeable in this regard so I would love to learn more from you(if you do not mind), without you attacking Sophia's character. Thank you.


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## 1malt4me

I think the average "heinz 57" mutts are healthier than purebreds on average..but I do not think that "designer dogs" (ie. one purebred to another purebred breedings) are healthier. People that purposely breed mixes have pet quality dogs to begin with and if they mix these two dogs you really have just as much chance of having a health issue as if you bred purebred dogs. Many toy breeds have similar health issues so breeding them together still gives you a risk for health issues. And sometimes when people breed two completely different breeds together, the dog turns out to be a health disaster..what if the dog gets the worst traits from both breeds instead of the best?
[/QUOTE]


I don't agree with that. I think if you put 2 healthy dogs together you will have a higher chance of getting a healthy dog and if you put 2 dogs that are not and carry the same genes for those problems then their puppies will have it too. I also think that a lot of it is not as black and white and that there are a group of genes that are way more complicated as far as how they are inherited and I think this is what makes this whole thing more complicated for breeders. 

I don't think the Maltese gene pool is all that small and it is just a matter of finding someone who breeds and owns healthier dogs.

I also think that this thread is great but as pet owners most of us would be terribly confused by all of this. :huh: 
Dee


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## myfairlacy

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jul 2 2009, 12:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799993


> MaryH, where is you evidence for accusing Sophia of having possession or access to the book in question, as well as accusing Sophia of conducting a "game piece"? Your various statements have been alleging facts that reflect negatively on Sophia's character. That is defamation- unless you have personal knowledge and/ or evidence to prove the truthulness of your statements.
> 
> I personally enjoyed this thread, both Sophia's questions and your repsonses. I know very little about genetics(dogs and human) and I think this topic is very educational and relevant for a Maltese foum. That is also why I liked reading your input. You are obviously very knowledgeable in this regard so I would love to learn more from you(if you do not mind), without you attacking Sophia's character. Thank you.[/B]


I don't understand where the accusations came from either.. I don't know either one of these people as I'm pretty new to this forum really but it seemed like Sophia was just asking questions and trying to discuss things. Not sure where someone came up with her playing games unless there is something going on between the two behind the scenes that I'm not aware of...

QUOTE (1malt4me @ Jul 2 2009, 12:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=799994


> I think the average "heinz 57" mutts are healthier than purebreds on average..but I do not think that "designer dogs" (ie. one purebred to another purebred breedings) are healthier. People that purposely breed mixes have pet quality dogs to begin with and if they mix these two dogs you really have just as much chance of having a health issue as if you bred purebred dogs. Many toy breeds have similar health issues so breeding them together still gives you a risk for health issues. And sometimes when people breed two completely different breeds together, the dog turns out to be a health disaster..what if the dog gets the worst traits from both breeds instead of the best?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree with that. I think if you put 2 healthy dogs together you will have a higher chance of getting a healthy dog and if you put 2 dogs that are not and carry the same genes for those problems then their puppies will have it too. I also think that a lot of it is not as black and white and that there are a group of genes that are way more complicated as far as how they are inherited and I think this is what makes this whole thing more complicated for breeders.
> 
> I don't think the Maltese gene pool is all that small and it is just a matter of finding someone who breeds and owns healthier dogs.
> 
> I also think that this thread is great but as pet owners most of us would be terribly confused by all of this. :huh:
> Dee[/B]


But no reputable is going to breed two purebred dogs of different breeds together..no reputable breeder produces mixed breed/designer dogs. So these breeders producing these mixes are backyard breeders or puppymills. They are gettin gtheir dogs from other backyard breeders and mills...they have pet quality purebreds of unknown lineage with unknown health history. So therefor these dogs have a much higher liklihood of producing puppies with health issues because the breeders don't know the health of their lines and they most likely aren't doing any health screening. So whether they use these pet quality dogs to produce more purebred puppies or designer mixes, they have a much higher chance of producing puppies with health issues than if you were to go through a reputable breeder that is breeding their purebred dogs that have been health screened and health history known.


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## princessre

I found this chart from a book preview on Amazon...


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 2 2009, 12:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800061


> I found this chart from a book preview on Amazon...[/B]


Oh wow, that's a good one - thanks!


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 2 2009, 03:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800065


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 2 2009, 12:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800061





> I found this chart from a book preview on Amazon...[/B]


Oh wow, that's a good one - thanks!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh yes, thanks!


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## angelgirl599

Great Chart!

But a few questions...What is a stifle? and what's a dudley nose? Is that when the nose is, for lack of a better term, multi-colored? I've seen it on some labs before where the nose on top is very very pink...is that it? or is it that they haven't spent enough time in the sun?


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## myfairlacy

QUOTE (angelgirl599 @ Jul 2 2009, 11:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800352


> Great Chart!
> 
> But a few questions...What is a stifle? and what's a dudley nose? Is that when the nose is, for lack of a better term, multi-colored? I've seen it on some labs before where the nose on top is very very pink...is that it? or is it that they haven't spent enough time in the sun?[/B]


not sure what a dudley nose is but a "stifle" is equivalent to our Knee joint on the rear legs of an animal.


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## littlemissy

I agree this thread was informative and then the tone some posts took is enough to make anyone cringe. In wonder who has the hidden agenda here- I doubt Sophia meant any harm just a sincere interest in knowledge of maltese genetics which does not warrant sarcasm and chastisement that she should care more about temperament or is playing a game or badmouthing breeders. Many here care about how a maltese looks (we talk about it all the time) or for those extra curious- how those looks are obtained. 

It sounds to me like someone isn't pleased that Sophia stated her first hand experience on a different thread (won't repeat which one) and now she can't ask questions now without being accused of badmouthing breeders or playing games. Gimme a break.


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## princessre

Below is an online lecture re. dog genetics. I guess because the long, silky coat is recessive, that is why you seldom if ever find curly, short coat from a reputable Maltese breeder? Because it is a homozygous recessive trait that was well established in the breeding program? CloudClan's link made finer distinctions amongst silky coats, though.

I find it pretty fascinating that the author below says you will not get a medium muzzle from breeding a long muzzle and short muzzle- you will either get a long or a short! Also he says if you breed large eyes with small eyes, you will only get large or small eyes, not medium eyes? Wonder if that's true? 

*******************************************
If a trait appears in any puppy that is not evident in its parents, that trait must be a recessive gene trait. You will begin to recognize the recessive genes without a lot of studying or effort and you will find it interesting exciting and fun.

Another thing to remember is that Recessive genes always breed true and so do Mutant genes.

Some of the Recessive genes we all see from time to time in our breed are, undershot/overshot mouths, parti colours, ring neck, sox and stockings and masks, long legs, long coat, timidity, light eyes and liver or blue pigment, curly tail, and patella luxation. There are many more, some are potentially dangerous or lethal for example hydrocephalus, cryptorchidism, kinked tail, epilepsy, harelip, cleft palate...to name just a few.

It is important for you to know that these problems must be bred out, they can not just be cut out. The reason for this statement is that both parents had to be carriers of the Recessive gene for a puppy to show it. Therefore unless you could have the parents desexed and all of their offspring and their entire families the gene responsible is being carried and passed on by some of them.

If both sire and dam are only carriers of a recessive gene, you can expect to see, in a litter of 5 pups, 2 completely normal, 2 normal but carriers and 1 showing the recessive gene trait.

To sum up and finish this presentation I would like to give you some examples to demonstrate Recessive genes in action:

* A long coat to a long coat can only produce long coats.
* A parti-colour to a parti-colour can only produce parti-colours.
* A patella luxation to a patella luxation can only produce patella luxation.
* A non-black pigment to a non-black pigment can never produce black pigment.
* A soft or dropped ear to a soft or dropped ear will only produce soft or dropped ears.

Another useful piece of information is that there is no blending of the genes in dogs. That means if you put a black dog to a white one you do not get grey pups. Some of the pups will be black and some will be white. This means that if you put large eyes to small, long legs to short, long coat to smooth, long muzzle to short, some pups will have the trait shown by one parent and some will have the trait shown by the other parent.

And finally, remember that if one parent shows a Recessive gene trait that is the only gene that parent can give its offspring. The reason for this is that Dominant genes can, and do, mask Recessive genes but Recessive genes can only breed true i.e. as they are. It is therefore genetically impossible for two Recessive genes to ever produce a dominant gene.

The message to push home is that the genetically perfect dog is a myth. Everybody carries something. The objective is to avoid crosses between dogs that carry the same harmful thing.


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## CeeCee's Mom

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 3 2009, 06:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800395


> Below is an online lecture re. dog genetics. I guess because the long, silky coat is recessive, that is why you seldom if ever find curly, short coat from a reputable Maltese breeder? Because it is a homozygous recessive trait that was well established in the breeding program? CloudClan's link made finer distinctions amongst silky coats, though.
> 
> I find it pretty fascinating that the author below says you will not get a medium muzzle from breeding a long muzzle and short muzzle- you will either get a long or a short! Also he says if you breed large eyes with small eyes, you will only get large or small eyes, not medium eyes? Wonder if that's true?
> 
> *******************************************
> If a trait appears in any puppy that is not evident in its parents, that trait must be a recessive gene trait. You will begin to recognize the recessive genes without a lot of studying or effort and you will find it interesting exciting and fun.
> 
> Another thing to remember is that Recessive genes always breed true and so do Mutant genes.
> 
> Some of the Recessive genes we all see from time to time in our breed are, undershot/overshot mouths, parti colours, ring neck, sox and stockings and masks, long legs, long coat, timidity, light eyes and liver or blue pigment, curly tail, and patella luxation. There are many more, some are potentially dangerous or lethal for example hydrocephalus, cryptorchidism, kinked tail, epilepsy, harelip, cleft palate...to name just a few.
> 
> It is important for you to know that these problems must be bred out, they can not just be cut out. The reason for this statement is that both parents had to be carriers of the Recessive gene for a puppy to show it. Therefore unless you could have the parents desexed and all of their offspring and their entire families the gene responsible is being carried and passed on by some of them.
> 
> If both sire and dam are only carriers of a recessive gene, you can expect to see, in a litter of 5 pups, 2 completely normal, 2 normal but carriers and 1 showing the recessive gene trait.
> 
> To sum up and finish this presentation I would like to give you some examples to demonstrate Recessive genes in action:
> 
> * A long coat to a long coat can only produce long coats.
> * A parti-colour to a parti-colour can only produce parti-colours.
> * A patella luxation to a patella luxation can only produce patella luxation.
> * A non-black pigment to a non-black pigment can never produce black pigment.
> * A soft or dropped ear to a soft or dropped ear will only produce soft or dropped ears.
> 
> Another useful piece of information is that there is no blending of the genes in dogs. That means if you put a black dog to a white one you do not get grey pups. Some of the pups will be black and some will be white. This means that if you put large eyes to small, long legs to short, long coat to smooth, long muzzle to short, some pups will have the trait shown by one parent and some will have the trait shown by the other parent.
> 
> And finally, remember that if one parent shows a Recessive gene trait that is the only gene that parent can give its offspring. The reason for this is that Dominant genes can, and do, mask Recessive genes but Recessive genes can only breed true i.e. as they are. It is therefore genetically impossible for two Recessive genes to ever produce a dominant gene.
> 
> The message to push home is that the genetically perfect dog is a myth. Everybody carries something. The objective is to avoid crosses between dogs that carry the same harmful thing.[/B]


That was so very interesting! Thanks for posting Sophia~~~Great article :ThankYou:


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## LUCY N PETS

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 3 2009, 08:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800395


> Below is an online lecture re. dog genetics. I guess because the long, silky coat is recessive, that is why you seldom if ever find curly, short coat from a reputable Maltese breeder? Because it is a homozygous recessive trait that was well established in the breeding program? CloudClan's link made finer distinctions amongst silky coats, though.
> 
> I find it pretty fascinating that the author below says you will not get a medium muzzle from breeding a long muzzle and short muzzle- you will either get a long or a short! Also he says if you breed large eyes with small eyes, you will only get large or small eyes, not medium eyes? Wonder if that's true?
> 
> *******************************************
> If a trait appears in any puppy that is not evident in its parents, that trait must be a recessive gene trait. You will begin to recognize the recessive genes without a lot of studying or effort and you will find it interesting exciting and fun.
> 
> Another thing to remember is that Recessive genes always breed true and so do Mutant genes.
> 
> Some of the Recessive genes we all see from time to time in our breed are, undershot/overshot mouths, parti colours, ring neck, sox and stockings and masks, long legs, long coat, timidity, light eyes and liver or blue pigment, curly tail, and patella luxation. There are many more, some are potentially dangerous or lethal for example hydrocephalus, cryptorchidism, kinked tail, epilepsy, harelip, cleft palate...to name just a few.
> 
> It is important for you to know that these problems must be bred out, they can not just be cut out. The reason for this statement is that both parents had to be carriers of the Recessive gene for a puppy to show it. Therefore unless you could have the parents desexed and all of their offspring and their entire families the gene responsible is being carried and passed on by some of them.
> 
> If both sire and dam are only carriers of a recessive gene, you can expect to see, in a litter of 5 pups, 2 completely normal, 2 normal but carriers and 1 showing the recessive gene trait.
> 
> To sum up and finish this presentation I would like to give you some examples to demonstrate Recessive genes in action:
> 
> * A long coat to a long coat can only produce long coats.
> * A parti-colour to a parti-colour can only produce parti-colours.
> * A patella luxation to a patella luxation can only produce patella luxation.
> * A non-black pigment to a non-black pigment can never produce black pigment.
> * A soft or dropped ear to a soft or dropped ear will only produce soft or dropped ears.
> 
> Another useful piece of information is that there is no blending of the genes in dogs. That means if you put a black dog to a white one you do not get grey pups. Some of the pups will be black and some will be white. This means that if you put large eyes to small, long legs to short, long coat to smooth, long muzzle to short, some pups will have the trait shown by one parent and some will have the trait shown by the other parent.
> 
> And finally, remember that if one parent shows a Recessive gene trait that is the only gene that parent can give its offspring. The reason for this is that Dominant genes can, and do, mask Recessive genes but Recessive genes can only breed true i.e. as they are. It is therefore genetically impossible for two Recessive genes to ever produce a dominant gene.
> 
> The message to push home is that the genetically perfect dog is a myth. Everybody carries something. The objective is to avoid crosses between dogs that carry the same harmful thing.[/B]



Thank you, to all of you for all your research.
See, this is what I mean by each of us learning here on SM, thank you for sharing your information, for those of us that don't have much time to do this research, it is so helpful for all of us. I guess its true you can learn something new everyday. Seems like you can teach an old dog new tricks. :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:


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## jmm

When you breed 2 extremes, you tend to get one or the other, not a moderate mix of the two. So if you have a long muzzle and you want to shorten, breed to a moderate muzzle. If you have a poorly angulated rear and you want to improve it, breed to moderate angulation NOT extreme angulation. Think of it this way, if you go tanning, you don't jump from pale white to deep tan immediately. You go by grades and degrees.


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## princessre

Jackie- Thanks for your input! I never know what to believe online...

Here's a fantastic article on breeding. I never truly realized why the pedigree is so important until now. It is so very interesting and counter-intuitive to me that a breeder in selecting a mate might more times than not choose a plain jane with a great pedigree over a fantastic-looking dog with a not-as-good pedigree. Seems like breeding is such an art and a science! Although the authors state the opposite, it certainly seems like a super producer like Risque was "pre-potent" in almost every regard to have sired so many champions with so many different mates? 

PRACTICAL GENETICS

Tina M. Barber
Shiloh Shepherds

Published in the GSQ in 1979

Much has been written about the science and art of Genetics. Lots of money has been spent on experiments to prove this theory or that theory concerning the inheritance of certain traits in animals. Unfortunately, most of this scientific work is wrapped in a cloud of big words and college laboratories. It certainly would be nice to cut through some of the haze and shed some practical light on this fascinating subject. In fact, for dog breeders a basic understanding of the subject of Genetics is not only interesting, it is essential.

Let’s start at the beginning, and cover a few basic concepts and definitions. There are a few terms which you need to know in order to link the scientific information with observations made during the actual breeding of dogs. When I refer to ‘actual breeding of dogs’, I'm speaking of my own observations which span more than 20 years of breeding German Shepherds and evaluating over 2000 puppies. Later in the article, I’ll cover actual breeding experiences.

When animals mate, the resulting offspring receives half its genetic makeup from each parent. This genetic material may be viewed as a string of physical and temperamental characteristics which, once combined with the corresponding string from the other parent, make up a brand new individual. This sounds simple enough, especially since animals have been doing it for many years without our help. If we simply pick and choose our Champions, and breed them with Champions, we’ll get Champions, right? Not necessarily! In fact, without carefully analyzing some hidden characteristics of the parents, Champions or not, we are likely to get disappointing results.

These ‘strings of characteristics’ I mentioned may be thought of as boxcars on a train, with each boxcar carrying a single row of crayons of various colors. The boxcars may be called chromosomes and the crayons inside the boxcars the genes. The genes are the part responsible for the final characteristics, good or bad, of the puppy. The chromosomes carry these characteristics from generation to generation.

The crayons (genes) from the stud arrive in the dam in a single line of boxcars (chromosomes). At that time, they pair up with the dam’s corresponding line of boxcars, and form a double line, like two trains of equal length sitting on parallel tracks, side by side. To complicate things there is not only a corresponding boxcar from each parent, but a corresponding crayon. Each crayon from each parent matches with one from the other parent, forming a very large number of crayon pairs. Each pair of crayons is responsible for a certain characteristic of the puppy (coat color, height. etc). The puppy has this pair for life, and it can’t be changed. To further complicate things these crayons come in two sizes: full length and half length! And in a rainbow of colors!

Time to dig into those basic concepts. Each animal has an outward appearance, a certain temperament and other physical characteristics. This is called the animal’s Phenotype (pronounced FEEN-O-TYPE). This outward appearance is due to the interaction of the crayons in pairs. These crayons may be in pairs of two shorts, two longs, or a short and a long. The short crayons make up the ‘recessive’ characteristics and the long crayons, the ‘dominant’ characteristics. If a pair is made up of two longs, they will usually be crayons of the same color, and the puppy will exhibit the characteristics of that particular color crayon. If the pair is made up of two short crayons, they will usually be crayons of the same color, and the puppy will exhibit that characteristic. The fun starts when the puppy inherits a short (recessive) crayon from one parent and a long (dominant) crayon from the other, making a pair with one long and one short. These are always crayons of different colors. The resulting puppy does NOT normally show a characteristic which is between the ‘long’ and the ‘short’ crayon. For example, an aggressive dog bred to a coward will not produce a ‘medium’ temperament. A tall dog bred to a short dog does not necessarily produce a ‘medium’ height. Many factors are at work here, and the offspring resulting from the breeding cannot be expected to be a mixture of the two parents.

Assigning some colors to these crayons may help. One possible color combination for this pair are: two blues, two greens, or a green and a blue. Let’s say the long crayon is blue in color for this particular pair, and the short one is green. Assume, for the sake of the example that this crayon pair controls whether the dog has three or four legs. A combination of two blues provides a puppy with four legs. A pair of greens provides a puppy with only three legs. The pair consisting of one blue crayon and one green crayon looks like it produces a pup with three legs and a stump, but not so! The blue crayon totally overpowers (dominates) the green crayon in the pair, and the puppy grows four legs, exactly like the pup with the ‘pure’ combination of two blue crayons! To the observer, the pups each have four normal legs. There is no outward way to tell the puppy with the ‘pure’ four legs (two blues) from the one carrying the ‘factor’ for three legs! This actual genetic makeup of the pup is called the Genotype (pronounced JEAN-O-TYPE). In this case, we have three possible genetic combinations, or genotypes: blue/blue, green/green, and green/blue, and only two possible physical appearances, or phenotypes of those combinations: normal four-legged dogs, and abnormal ones with only three legs.

So what is the big deal? If you want a puppy with four normal legs, and you get a puppy with four legs, you have what you want, right? Not if you intend to breed! Assuming you want to breed one of these dogs I’ve been describing, and further assuming you want to produce puppies with four legs, you would rather have the dog without the short green crayon in the pair, even though his four legs look exactly the same as the blue/blue dog. Although our example puppy has two parallel trains of boxcars for his life, only one or the other individual train is passed on to his sons and daughters. Each parent contributes one train (half the genetic makeup) to the next generation, producing puppies with two full, parallel trains. Due to this, there’s a 50-50 chance he will pass that short green crayon on to the next generation, increasing the chance that the undesirable ‘three-leg factor’ will pop up in the future. Of the two described with four normal legs, your best bet is the one with two blues. Since he will pass one or the other of those blue crayons on to future generations, and since the blue crayon is dominant, all future pups will have four normal legs, whether or not they inherit a short green crayon from the other parent!

We are talking about the ‘Recessive Gene Pool’ in bloodline. The above example is simplified for the purpose of illustrating the procedure involved in Dominant-Recessive transfer of genetic characteristics to following generations. Actually, the process is quite a bit more involved, but it all breaks down to the basic principles shown. There are factors hidden from view in all breeding stock. It is up to the breeder to understand those hidden, or recessive characteristics before breeding.

But how do you figure out what they are? If they are hidden from view, how do you determine the genetic makeup of an animal? Even the fanciest Genetics laboratory at the largest university in the country can’t look at an animal and determine its genotype! How are we, mere breeders of dogs, supposed to know? That is the basis of the next section.

First, it must be understood there is nothing certain in this business of breeding. The whole concept of genetic transfer of characteristics is based on the PROBABILITY that something will happen. Two poor specimens bred together may produce a champion: two champions may produce a mutt. We must swing the process in our favor, to increase the PROBABILITY that we will get what we want from the breeding of two dogs.

Before we start we must face a unique problem, one which does not usually face those college laboratory workers: the problem of working backward through a pedigree. In the laboratory, two animals are bred together, usually producing a fairly large number of offspring. Extremely detailed notes are kept, and all outward characteristics (phenotypes) of the offspring are tabulated. These offspring are then bred together in a random fashion, producing a very large number of babies. The same type of detailed notes and tabulations are prepared on the phenotypes of those offspring. If the number is not yet overwhelming, those offspring are again bred together in the same type of random fashion, producing zillions of offspring. All the data from all these breedings is available to the workers who bred the two original animals together. From this data, a very accurate picture of the genotypes of the original pair may be constructed based on the percentages of this or that physical characteristics in their offspring for the next several generations. This is fine if you are working in a laboratory with very small animals (like while mice or fruit-flies and you can house, feed. and examine all the offspring for the next several generations. It is not normally practical for dog breeders to do this.

As breeders, we must determine the genotype (or at least make an educated guess) of an animal which occupies the position of one individual out of the ‘zillions’ produced in the fourth or fifth generation after the original mating. We have a reverse problem from the laboratory. Where the laboratory workers know what all the offspring of a single pair look like, dog breeders only know what a pup’s ancestors look like. We can only speculate about the genotypes of our pup’s parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. If we make a breeding error, a hidden characteristic from the recessive gene pool in our stock may rise up when least expected. and produce undesirable results. That type of breeding error is usually costly in time, money, and quality of the breed, and must be avoided…but how?

The answer is to use the same technique as the old Riverboat Gamblers: stack the deck! Know the genotypes, or producing ability, of the past generations on the pedigree. This sounds like a simple statement of common sense, but is it really? Only if those past generations have been carefully controlled by 'inbreed’ or ‘linebreeding’ as we call it, and only if detailed records of other litters are available to you, the breeder. Just like the gambler, if you have a fairly good idea of the value of the next card to be dealt you stand a better chance of winning.

By understanding the basic dominant-recessive concepts of genetics, and with an adequate amount of homework, a breeder can make an educated guess concerning the PROBABILITY of a particular breeding resulting in a desirable phenotype. Though nothing is certain, it’s the best method there is for animal breeding, and can be quite precise if done correctly.

By using selective breeding within specific lines of stock animals, the breeder has a powerful tool at his disposal This tool permits him to see the expression of undesirable characteristics, and to remove (cull) them before they spread. By removing animals with these undesirable characteristics, the overall genotype of the breeding line is improved and strengthened. By carefully monitoring or prohibiting breeding to animals outside the bloodline, genes-- which may alter the ‘carefully stacked deck’ are blocked from entry. After a time, the undesirable factors can be eliminated, and a stable line results. The Quarter Horse is an example of this, and is a result of approximately 200 years of intensive linebreeding and culling. This may explain why many reputable dog breeders do not sell their best breeding stock except on co-ownerships. Control is the key.

Through linebreeding, desirable and undesirable characteristics become predictable, or rather the PROBABILITY of getting a certain trait (long coat, three legs, super intelligence, etc) becomes higher. Breeding stock carrying undesirable traits can then be avoided. and the overall bloodline becomes stronger in desirable traits. Eventually, the breeding stock becomes so strong in certain traits that breeding to inferior stock still produces a desirable phenotype. Since most physical and temperamental characteristics are controlled by the interaction of more than one pair of genes, this is a very difficult point to reach. This point, usually reached through a combination of 5% luck and 95% labor over the years, is generally known as PREPOTENCY. The desirable factors of a stud or dam are passed along to a majority of their puppies due to the lack of recessive genes which control the undesirable traits. Everyone can think of a specific dog who passes a certain characteristic reliably to his or her pups, almost without regard to the quality of the other parent.

But this is an ideal point which is seldom reached in practice. We are still faced with the every-day routine of selecting breeding partners, and no breeding animal is prepotent in all characteristics. Let’s go back to the dominant-recessive problem and make an example of the three-legged dog mentioned earlier.

This example will show how a characteristic can stay hidden in a bloodline and pop up when least expected. With a little homework, however, the source can be found.

Take a look at chart #1. We are holding a pedigree for a three legged puppy. His parents both have four legs. His grandparents all have four legs. The first three-legged dog on the pedigree is located in the third generation! The factor skipped two complete generations and popped up in our puppy! If we do some homework, this can be explained.

[attachment=54631:Chart1.gif]

Chart #2 has the basic, raw information about the litters. At first glance this doesn’t tell us much but by analyzing the performance of each breeding pair, we can make a pretty close guess about the genotypes of the parents and grandparents. This litter information is critical to a full understanding of the bloodline and its probable strengths and faults. Time spent gathering this type of information is time well spent.

[attachment=54632:Chart2.gif]

Chart #3 has the litter information broken down into probable genotypes. This is not magic but an educated guess. We’ll go through each pair from oldest breeding to youngest breeding, analyze each breeding pair based on their phenotypes and performance in the litter produced and cover the logic of deducing probable genotypes.

Pair #1 produced ten pups, all with 4 legs. The sire is probably pure (prepotent) in the 4-legged factor since, when bred to a 3-legged mate, all puppies had 4 legs. The dam, with 3 legs, certainly carries both ‘short green crayons’, and therefore shows the trait that goes with that: 3 legs. Remember that the 3-legged factor is recessive, and only shows up in the dog when both recessives are present at once. The ten pups, though they have four normal legs, are not prepotent like the sire, but now carry the 3-legged factor from the dam. It’s almost a sure bet that all ten pups from this breeding carry one long blue and one short green, and will pass one or the other on to future pups.

Pair #2 produced 8 pups, all with 4 legs. Things are not so sure here, since both dogs of pair #2 have four normal legs. These 8 pups may be pure (prepotent) in the 4-legged factor, or they may carry a 3-legged factor. It is likely that most of the litter is pure 4-leggedl. but not certain, since you know the factor is hiding in the bloodline somewhere. Future breedings will shed some more light on this pair.

[attachment=54633:chart_3.gif]

Pair #3 produced a litter that was split evenly between 3-legged and 4-legged pups. This is quite revealing. Since the 3-legged factor is recessive, the sire of pair #3, though equipped with 4 legs, cannot be prepotent for 4 legs. The sire must be carrying the 3-legged factor. Any 4-legged pup from this breeding is most likely carrying the 3-legged factor. Any 3-legged pup is certainly carrying ‘two short green crayons’ which permit the recessive trait to appear.

Pair #4 is similar to Pair #2. All 10 pups have four legs, but there may be a 3-legged factor lurking in some of the pups. Since all the pups have four legs, one may be selected for breeding that carries the factor. This is another pair that requires a look into future breedings in order to make an educated guess at the genotypes.

Pair #5 produced all 4-legged pups. Since the original mating of Pair #1 produced puppies carrying the 3-legged factor, the sire of Pair #5 probably carries the factor. The dam is a different story. This dog was selected from the breeding of Pair #2. But since the mating of pair #5 produced no puppies with 3 legs, the dam is most likely prepotent in the 4-leg factor. Though some of the pups from the original breeding of Pair #2 may be carriers of the 3-leg factor, the pup selected as the dam of Pair #5 is probably not a carrier.

Pair #6 produced 8 pups with 4 legs and 2 pups with 3 legs. This tells quite a story about the pair, and provides some details on Pair #4. The sire of Pair #6 is similar to the sire of Pair #5: a highly likely carrier of the 3-leg factor. Even though he has four legs he is almost certainly not prepotent in the 4-leg factor. The dam of Pair #6 also seems to be guilty of carrying the 3-leg factor. By chance, the dam was selected from the litter for breeding, and happened to be one who carries the 3-leg factor.

Pair #7, a mating between animals with four normal legs produced a litter with some 3-legged puppies. This certainly resulted from both sire and dam carrying the 3-leg factor. Since each parent passes only one or the other crayon to the puppies, the genotypes of the litter could be blue/blue, blue green. or green/green. Blue/blue puppies and blue/green puppies look the same: four legs. Only the unfortunate ones which inherit a green from the sire and a green from the dam will have 3 legs. Our pup is one of those.

After studying these example pedigrees all this may look pretty simple. The basic concepts are simple and an understanding of them is crucial. You now can see how undesirable traits can be carried through a bloodline and jump out generations later when least expected. The probabilities of a characteristic showing up in a particular puppy can actually be calculated mathematically, but that’s outside the scope of this article. If actual breeding is so straightforward and easy to calculate, then why all the fuss?

Because it’s not so easy in actual practice. Although the basic concepts of inheritance hold true when talking about individual pairs of crayons, most characteristics are more complicated. Most of the time, more than one crayon pair is involved, and there are several different dominant (tall) crayons and several recessive (short) crayons, which may occur. There is often interaction between the different crayons controlling a trait that causes a totally different and unexpected phenotype to appear. Although it is possible to find certain characteristics that pass from generation to generation in a manner similar to the example of the 3-leg and 4-leg puppies, this is the exception. It is a constant task to analyze and select the best breeding partners in order to purify the bloodline and increase the probability of producing a consistent, quality puppy.

So, we are faced with some problems. To minimize outside influence and interference on our bloodline, we are restricting breeding to our own stock except in very rare instances. There are strong points we want to keep and weak points we want to get rid of. We do our homework, hope for the best, and then one day we find a Fantastic Champion in the whelping box, surrounded by his so-so littermates. It seems that some of our hard work has paid off! The 5% luck and 95% labor mentioned earlier finally produced what we want (see Chart #4). Since we own both the sire and dam, we just repeat the breeding and produce a hundred or so Fantastic Champions to fill the record books and put our kennel on the map once and for good! We finally hit the jackpot, right? Not so fast! Let’s not count our Champions before they are hatched!

Remember the luck factor? And remember the Fantastic Champion’s so-so littermates? It seems luck was certainly on our side there. A repeat breeding, though it may be worth a try, probably won’t produce another Fantastic champion. Let’s look at a technique, which will allow us to insert FC’s strong points into our bloodline, and possibly produce another FC! This may sound far-fetched, but we have done this at Shiloh Shepherds at least three times on two totally different bloodlines. This technique worked best with the particular bloodlines available to us. It serves to illustrate how a dog may be ‘recreated’ if the basic principles of heredity are understood, the breeding stock is available to you, and the time is available for breeding.

At first glance, it looks like we should breed FC to the best looking bitch we can find. Not so. Remember the dominant and recessive business? FC is probably carrying a truckload of recessive characteristics from his unimpressive parents or grandparents. Most of those characteristics are undesirable. If simply bred to a good-looking bitch, we would most likely end up with those undesirable characteristics in the puppies (maybe three legs!), and FC’s strong points would be lost or diluted. In this case, we use a technique normally reserved for experimental purposes to determine genotypes: the ‘back cross’.

[attachment=54634:chart_4.gif] 

Back crossing takes an offspring and breeds it back to its opposite sex parent. In this case, FC is bred to his dam. This may sound crazy, but we’ve done our homework. Chart #5 may be used for reference during this example. The dam’s sire was a super producer, i.e. prepotent in many areas. Even though the dam is plain, she inherited many strong factors from her sire. By breeding FC and his dam, we are likely to produce a litter, which exhibits a range of characteristics and qualities. Some puppies will be strong in desirable factors; Some will be real losers. We take the best female pup that resembles her sire (FC), and breed her to her sire’s sire or, if possible, to her ‘Looks Great’ Grandsire on her sire’s side, thus eliminating the undesirable characteristics of the ‘Pet Stock’ bitch. Once again. we select a bitch from that litter which shows the phenotype we desire (probably her Grandsire) and breed her to Super Producer on her dam’s side.

[attachment=54635:Chart_5.jpg]

By this method, we have isolated and eliminated many of the recessive characteristics we don't want and intensified the traits we want as originally shown by Fantastic Champion. We have gone back into the bloodline on the dam’s side to intensify the positive characteristics of the dam’s sire 'Super Producer', and the dam’s grandsire ‘Super Stud’. By this time we should be producing a puppy which resembles FC. If not, we must start the process over again on FC’s sire’s side. Chart #6 shows the final product of this method.

By using Chart #5 as a guide, try extending the pedigree listed below, up to 8 generations. You will find that Super Champ shows up:

1 x in the 4th, 1 x in the 5th, 6 x in the 6th, 7x in the 7th, 5x in the 8th for a total of 20 times in 8 generations!

[attachment=54636:chart_6.gif]

Even though it appears that Fantastic Champion is lost, we have not lost the characteristics we desire. By using FC as an indicator of the traits we want in our breeding stock, and isolating the side (dam or sire) which provided those traits, we were able to identify the weak points and pool the strong points, eventually resulting in a stud which was prepotent in the strong points. Our Fantastic champion was a throwback to his ‘Super Champ’ ancestors. Through this method, those qualities are now available to us for future breeding.

Through the process of inbreeding or heavy linebreeding we have been able to find the hidden recessive genes in our bloodline. Since inbreeding intensifies the faults as well as the virtues, we are able to put together a clear picture of the genetic makeup of our stock. For example, when we actually produced litter C (on chart #6) we found a recessive for weak pigment and straight fronts, which showed itself in a large number of pups. By using the best specimens, the faults were ‘hidden’ but were still present in the gene pool and might have appeared later. To solve this problem, and eliminate these undesirable recessives from our new stock, another breeding technique was used: Type Breeding.

Now for a few cautions. Never breed two dogs with an ‘open’ pedigree where all the dogs are unrelated and/or of different types. It’s similar to breeding a dog where all the ancestors come from different breeds of dogs. In other words, the results of such a breeding are unpredictable. Opposites may attract, but they don’t produce anything predictable.

Be sure you know the difference between ‘inherited’ and "acquired" characteristics. A dog does not 'inherit’ a UD degree. He acquired it through intensive training. The ability to learn, or the basic intelligence is ‘inherited’. A puppy who loses an eye due to an accident will still produce pups with two normal eyes. The injured eye is an ‘acquired’ (so to speak) trait. The dog’s coat color, basic bone structure, and basic temperament are examples of inherited characteristics, and may be passed along to future generations. The difference between inherited and acquired characteristics often becomes very blurred. Be certain you know the difference when evaluating breeding stock or selecting a puppy.

Have a specific Plan of Action when breeding. To use ‘hit or miss’ methods by breeding only to ‘good-looking’ stock is inviting heartbreak. A breeding program without a purpose is like a ship without a rudder or a builder without a blueprint. It is even more foolish to base a breeding on faulty logic and misinformation. For example, I have seen the mating of a SCH III and a champion in order to get the best of both! Such a breeding produces the best of neither, and usually is a disappointment.

Linebreeding has ancient roots. From the Bible, we learn that Abraham was commanded by God to practice inbreeding and linebreeding. Abraham married his half-sister and produced a son. Isaac. Isaac married Rebekah, his first cousin, and through successive marriages between first cousins and other close relatives, the Jewish nation was formed on the Abraham-Isaac line.

We have covered quite a bit from crayons to back-crosses. I hope it is clear by now that this business of Genetics can be taken out of the laboratory and into the kennel. It’s not necessary to have two college degrees to use these ideas in a sound breeding program. All that’s necessary is basic understanding of the principles involved and a willingness to experiment and learn from successes and failures. I hope it is clear how a carefully controlled program of linebreeding can improve a breed, and how adequate homework on litters produced by certain pairs of breeding animals can be critical to your understanding of the recessive gene pool in a bloodline.


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## jmm

You might check out Dr. Carmen Battaglia's pedigree analysis...I think it is quite useful and visually helps you see what you are breeding.


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## littlemissy

Wow thanks for all the info. While I don't completely understand all that was written here, even with the knowledge of genetics and years of experience as it applies to dogs it still sounds like it is a refined science that has percentages or elements of surprise in the results no matter how much you know. A gamble, so to speak ,where the odds for a specific outcome can be increased but never guaranteed completely.


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## roxybaby22

Thanks Jackie and Sophia for sharing the information.  It was very insightful!


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## ckim111

Can u summarize in 100 words or less?


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 3 2009, 05:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800571


> Can u summarize in 100 words or less? [/B]


 LOL I'm with you.


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## princessre

QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 3 2009, 05:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800571


> Can u summarize in 100 words or less? [/B]


I can do it in one word!

PUNK!


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## MandyMc65

QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 3 2009, 01:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800583


> QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 3 2009, 05:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800571





> Can u summarize in 100 words or less? [/B]


I can do it in one word!

PUNK!
[/B][/QUOTE]

:confused1:


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## princessre

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 3 2009, 06:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800605


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jul 3 2009, 01:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800583





> QUOTE (ckim111 @ Jul 3 2009, 05:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800571





> Can u summarize in 100 words or less? [/B]


I can do it in one word!

PUNK!
[/B][/QUOTE]

:confused1:
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh sorry to confuse! Just was calling ckim a punk for not wanting to read it and wanting me to write a summary...


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## princessre

QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 3 2009, 11:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=800423


> You might check out Dr. Carmen Battaglia's pedigree analysis...I think it is quite useful and visually helps you see what you are breeding.[/B]


Jackie- Thanks so much! Is this what you were referring to? It makes sense you would need something to record, keep track of, and analyze all relevant traits on all ancestors and offsprings! So interesting! I really like this- thanks for mentioning!


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## jmm

Yep...I'm a stick dog pedigree fan.


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