# Prescription dog food. Royal canin vs hill's



## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

Sugarplum has Been having elevated liver enzymes and her bile acid test came back a little bit high. The internist recommended to give her Hills prescription dog food for renal support because it taste better than the prescription liver for support. I'm not quite sure how I feel about the hills science diet company and I was wondering if anyone has used the Royal Canin prescription dog food for liver or regional support. Is one better than the other one it comes to this? We have her on two different types of antibiotics for the first two weeks then we have her on denamarin and ursidiol for two months. The internist recommended doing a liver biopsy because the ultrasound came back normal with no Shunts. Before I get a biopsy done which is such an invasive procedure I asked what else can be done and they recommended these four medications as well a prescription low-protein kibble dry food for her I'm not sure which one is better and if anyone has used them if you can give me some suggestions. I'm not too familiar with this issue but I know that low copper is recommended for liver problems as well as low-protein with the renal support from Hills prescription diet there is copper in it but they said that it taste better than the liver formula. I am going to the vet tomorrow personally I think that Royal Cannon may be a bit better but I am not sure if they've had any recalls in regards to their prescription kibble because I've never had this issue before. Your suggestions and input would mean a great deal and I think you in advance. 


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

Zach my wheaten had been on the Hills prescription food for a variety of things and was on it for most of his life until recently I switched him to Canine Caviar and he has been doing great. Boo started on the Royal Canine (non presciption) until recently switched to Canine Caviar. I switched him because of someone posting what Royal had in their ingredients. Hopefully someone else will have better insight but most vets do recommend the Hills.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

Luck is on hepatic Royal Canine and he loves ir. He does well on it, also. I have to cut up the kibble - split it in half, but he loves it. Feel free to pm me with questions about it.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

One of my dogs has been on a lot of different prescription diets. More than one was a Royal Canin product, but not the one you're considering. I'm not aware of any recalls of their prescription foods.

My vets (and their distributors) will give me a full refund if the prescription foods by either manufacturer don't work or the dog won't eat them.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

Thank you all for the advice , I just saw so many reports on consumer affairs for pets getting sick from royal canin. This is such a hard time and I just want to get into a routine and see what she would prefer. Her BAT levels were 69, so not too bad but I still unsure. The internist prescribed the hills k/d for her liver enzymes although the food is for kidneys because it has lower protein and apparently it is more palatable. 


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Is your dog having any symptoms? What are the liver enzymes? 

Most dogs fine the Royal Canin a bit more palatable than the Hill's products. You also have the option of cooking for your dog. However, low protein is really only indicated for dogs with protein intolerance (hepatic encephalopathy)...it is not really indicated for asymptomatic Maltese with mild elevations.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

jmm said:


> Is your dog having any symptoms? What are the liver enzymes?
> 
> Most dogs fine the Royal Canin a bit more palatable than the Hill's products. You also have the option of cooking for your dog. However, low protein is really only indicated for dogs with protein intolerance (hepatic encephalopathy)...it is not really indicated for asymptomatic Maltese with mild elevations.


She isn't showing any symptoms. This is more or less to see if she has issues with protein I'd rather do this first than a biopsy. Also I made the home cooked low protein diet and she refuses to eat it she hates rice and there is hardly any meat. , before we were giving her chicken with carrots and other veggies every day, she never really ate her kibble. Wet food is a no go we tried it. This is so frustrating and confusing , and more than anything I feel hopeless. She had a week about a month ago when she was throwing up but since she was 6 months she has had mildly elevated liver enzymes so I'm just confused. 


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I personally wouldn't use either. There are no magic ingredients in either of those brands, And they are not high quality foods. The first three ingredients in the RC are grains, not protein. The first protein is chicken fat (yuck) and doesn't appear until fourth on the list. The key is low protein, so I would use the lowest protein better quality dog food you can find.

I've just gone through this with Tessa - her ALT went from 278 to 20 using Addiction food, milk thistle, and Animal Essentials Detox Blend - she couldn't tolerate the denamarin or even plain SAM-e. This thread shares our experience: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-.../169954-tessas-six-month-odyssey-success.html

Good luck with your baby!


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## Cassievt (Apr 24, 2013)

My breeder had me get Royal Canine indoor.,,Cassie just turned 1 yr. I switched her to Royal Canine 8 months. She does really well on it, but it is not a prescription one. I did notice that the one for older dogs have less protein in it. I have not seen any recalls on this. If anyone has I would appreciate a heads up. 

If the ultra sound showed no liver shunt why do they want to do a liver biopsy? I am also new to all of this and have been giving Cassie liver treats since 12 weeks old thinking I was giving her a good treat.... Now I am scared. Please keep us posted. I am sure more experience people can help you. Good luck.



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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

Her problems are not so much the ALT, it's the bile acids that we have an issue with. I'm really hoping I can find a great food for her , we have tried the dehydrated before and she refuses to eat that. 


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## lols82 (Nov 13, 2012)

Sammy was on royal canine when we got him from his breeders and I changed him, it's not that good quality at all.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Was the breeder feeding Sammy a prescription diet? There may be quite a difference between their prescription formulas and the over-the-counter kind.


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## lols82 (Nov 13, 2012)

mss said:


> Was the breeder feeding Sammy a prescription diet? There may be quite a difference between their prescription formulas and the over-the-counter kind.


No it was just the normal kind of royal canine.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

The problem with Royal Canin is that in order to get the prescription diets lower in protein they use corn and rice as the first two ingredients. With the dehydrated that we use, the first ingredient is the protein followed by things like carrots, potatoes and papayas. 

You said your baby wouldn't eat dehydrated - did you reconstitute it and let it sit for a few minutes? I've tried several different foods and this one is definitely the biggest hit - they go nuts over it!

I went back and looked at your old posts - is this the same dog that was pushed off a dresser? Was the liver injured at all by that?

I wouldn't go straight for a liver biopsy, especially if there are no symptoms. It's quite possible that your baby is either asymptomatic MVD or has a small shunt that can be managed medically through diet and supplements. I would go the conservative route first and re-test in a few months. And if your internist isn't willing to do that, I'd question why they want to do such an invasive procedure on a dog who is showing no symptoms.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I would leave the poor dog alone. Most Maltese have asymptomatic MVD. They have mild elevations in bile acids like your dog. No treatment is needed if they have no symptoms.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

jmm said:


> I would leave the poor dog alone. Most Maltese have asymptomatic MVD. They have mild elevations in bile acids like your dog. No treatment is needed if they have no symptoms.


That's what I am hoping too. I really do not want to do a biopsy. She is acting fine. And I feel bad that I can't give her her usual chicken because of this low protein stuff. Her liver enzymes have always been a little elevated , never more than 10% above normal. And her bile acid test is pretty high but not extreme. This is so confusing. Supplements, vitamins, all of that. She is acting normal, just a bit more tired after playing cuz she isn't getting her usual amount of protein. I feel like my head is gonna explode !


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

These are her latest results
7/30
ALT: 95 AST: 81 CPL 305
8/31
ALT: 109 AST: 69 BUN:47

9/4 bile acids pre: 3 post: 85


(


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

She may be a little tired or lethargic not because she's not getting her usual chicken but because something is just a little "off". I know with Tessa as soon as her liver enzymes came to well within the normal range, she was off and zooming again. 

I don't know about AST, but the ALT values aren't that far off. I'd suggest simply adding milk thistle to a low/moderate protein diet and recheck the blood work in two months. I don't see a need to redo the BAT as long as she's acting like herself.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

Bile acids were 1.5 pre 68.9 post after the second test when we fed her her regular chicken and carrots at the specialist. 

I talked To the specialist today and he said because her numbers were not so high to continue giving her her regular food as we would usually give her and continue with the four medications for two months and redo the bile acids test. 

Can anyone recommend a good multivitamin for liver issues ? because there are so many out there that it's so confusing. 
They said to give Tums for calcium but I am not too confident and giving her that with all of those extra chemicals that they add. 
The one thing I know is that the multivitamin shouldn't have Copper and I believe not a lot of potassium I'm also wondering if anybody knows of the powdered form. The specialist said to give her pet tabs but it seems very generic for me to give her those


Thank you so much for all of your help


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Iubire14 said:


> Bile acids were 1.5 pre 68.9 post after the second test when we fed her her regular chicken and carrots at the specialist.
> 
> I talked To the specialist today and he said because her numbers were not so high to continue giving her her regular food as we would usually give her and continue with the four medications for two months and redo the bile acids test.
> 
> ...


50-99 Bile Acid Values are considered moderately high. Not enough to even warrant doing a Protein C let alone a biopsy. The AST is only 3 points out of the normal limit range. And the ALT is within normal limits. If she is acting normal I would not be worried at all and consider her asymptomatic MVD, which the majority of all Maltese are. I would keep this in mind with food choices and do yearly blood work to check her liver values. If you want, you could go to a lower to moderate protein food that is either a wet canned food or a dehydrated that you reconstitute with water, give her a milk thistle supplement or the Animal Essentials Detox Blend and see if we can bring things down even lower. I really have had the best luck with customers using Addiction Dehydrated, and rotating through all 6 of their grain free formulas. There is no reason to add a multi-vitamin or calcium if you are feeding a food that is complete and balanced. If you are home cooking, you need to follow a recipe that is complete and balanced and that will instruct you as to how much calcium to add as well as a multi-vitamin.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

I cant give her milk thistle because she is already on denamarin, ursidiol, amoxicillin and metronidazole. I don't know of an exact recipe because she is so picky. 
Usually I buy 2-3 plain no salt natural rotisserie chickens, take of all the skin and no bones or fat (usually about 50 grams) and then I add boiled carrots and green beans. And I too it off with the standard process canine whole body support. That's what she has been on for a while now cuz she's so picky. 
I've been researching natural vitamins and found 
Dr dobias soulfood, it's certified organic if anyone wants to check it out and let me know what they think. From reading on liver issues I found that copper is not that great and this supplement has no copper. I don't want to go to extremes, I just want to find something that will work and get into the routine of things

Also reading potassium isn't that great so I'm not quite sure what veggies to use. 

This time I make the home cooked I'm going to add some organic white rice or oatmeal, from reading grains absorb the ammonia in the intestines. 


Also if anyone has an exact recipe that would be great, she will only eat chicken 


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I would discontinue all of the medications and feed your dog a normal protein (20-26%) food with plenty of healthy treats.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

jmm said:


> I would discontinue all of the medications and feed your dog a normal protein (20-26%) food with plenty of healthy treats.


That would be ideal, but I just want to make sure that's not what got her here in the first place.















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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

She still gets healthy treats , she gets carrots blueberries and lettuce everyday. As well as her jones natural bully sticks. 


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Well she sure is on a lot of meds and supplements for very mildly elevated levels and no symptoms. And for not wanting to go to extremes, I hate to say it but you kind of are. It sounds like your vet may not be familiar with Maltese and asymptomatic MVD. For this reason you might want to ask him to contact Dr Center at Cornell for a 2nd opinion on how to proceed. Also educate yourself on this subject to read some of the stickied threads on this subject in this section. My guess is that your original homemade diet was too high in protein for her. I would look for an integrative vet to help you determine if her pickiness is behavioral or if perhaps she may be dealing with a mild GI issue causing her to not want to eat with gusto. 

It's so easy to get a bit panicked with these babies, I know. 


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

jmm said:


> I would discontinue all of the medications and feed your dog a normal protein (20-26%) food with plenty of healthy treats.





Iubire14 said:


> That would be ideal, but I just want to make sure that's not what got her here in the first place.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just so you know, 20-26% is truly a low to low/moderate protein level. In fact, 20% could be used for a kidney diet. Did you calculate the protein level in your original homemade diet that you were giving her?


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

Sugarplum is a doll 

My Grace has liver problems... She has liver damage which acts somewhat like MVD. She goes through cycles of having symptoms, but since her first year (symptoms all the time) she is doing much better.

I agree with those who have said to get her off the medications.

Even when Grace was having a lot of symptoms and was pretty sick, I didn't want her on a bunch of meds that her liver and kidneys would have to flush out.

I found a holisitic vet, which was the best thing I ever did. Grace was put on the milk thistle and Sam-E.... and that was it. Yes she got a multivitamin and a probiotic, but those she is on just for health, not necessarily because of her liver. The rest was controlled by diet.

I home cook for Grace. She is on a vegetarian diet. I was shocked how quickly it helped.

Before going on a bunch of meds and before going on the prescription food (which has filers and byproducts).... I'd consider other options.

If she isn't having symptoms, I don't see what's wrong with your home cooking the way you have been, as long as it is balanced.

Unless her pickiness is a symptom. Does she always eat the chicken dish you prepare for her?


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Grace'sMom said:


> Sugarplum is a doll
> 
> My Grace has liver problems... She has liver damage which acts somewhat like MVD. She goes through cycles of having symptoms, but since her first year (symptoms all the time) she is doing much better.
> 
> ...


And as long as it's not too high of a protein amount for her. But you have to remember she was not following any type of recipe that had been formulated to be complete and balanced. Nor, I'm guessing, did she calculate the amount of protein in the diet.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> And as long as it's not too high of a protein amount for her. But you have to remember she was not following any type of recipe that had been formulated to be complete and balanced. Nor, I'm guessing, did she calculate the amount of protein in the diet.


No I did not follow a recipe, I made all the recipes I found online for home cooked at first and she just refused to eat it, our vet is a holistic vet and she said no to the biopsy as well, the first time before we spay, when we had her liver values checked I had her on milk thistle cause her ALT was a bit high and it helped somewhat. Denamarin is milk thistle and Sam-e. I just want to give her the best nutrition possible. I am waiting on my vet to make a diet plan but she is slow to respond. I've read everything on the Internet about this I think over the last week I've spent well over 40 hours reading about it. I've made the low protein diet and she hates it, I add the Tums, which I don't think is great either way. I spoon feed her and sometimesshe eats it. Over the last two days I've been adding a little chicken to it and it seems a bit more palatable for her. With her Standard Process whole body support I'm a bit concerned because its made mostly of organ meats. I know she isn't showing any signs but for at least the next 7 weeks she is on the medication ,( first two weeks amoxicillin and metronidazole, last two months ursidiol and denamarin) just to see if that might be the cause If her levels go down then I am pretty sure she was getting too much protein with her previous food I was giving her. 50 grams of chicken 1-2 a day and free feeding on carrots green beans blueberries and lettuce 

That is why I want to see if there is another vitamin I can give her instead. 


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Iubire14 said:


> No I did not follow a recipe, I made all the recipes I found online for home cooked at first and she just refused to eat it, our vet is a holistic vet and she said no to the biopsy as well, the first time before we spay, when we had her liver values checked I had her on milk thistle cause her ALT was a bit high and it helped somewhat. Denamarin is milk thistle and Sam-e. I just want to give her the best nutrition possible. I am waiting on my vet to make a diet plan but she is slow to respond. I've read everything on the Internet about this I think over the last week I've spent well over 40 hours reading about it. I've made the low protein diet and she hates it, I add the Tums, which I don't think is great either way. I spoon feed her and sometimesshe eats it. Over the last two days I've been adding a little chicken to it and it seems a bit more palatable for her. With her Standard Process whole body support I'm a bit concerned because its made mostly of organ meats. I know she isn't showing any signs but for at least the next 7 weeks she is on the medication ,( first two weeks amoxicillin and metronidazole, last two months ursidiol and denamarin) just to see if that might be the cause If her levels go down then I am pretty sure she was getting too much protein with her previous food I was giving her. 50 grams of chicken 1-2 a day and free feeding on carrots green beans blueberries and lettuce
> 
> That is why I want to see if there is another vitamin I can give her instead.
> 
> ...


Denamarin is a great product. It is extremely concentrate with all of the best stuff. But...it does cause tummy upsets for a lot of dogs. They will tell you and your vet there are very few reports of this. But I know of quite a few that can't take it.

I know you're scared and wanting to do the very best for your precious little girl. But several of us, as well as JMM (a vet tech who is extremely knowledgeable about the Maltese breed), feel that this is really not something you have to worry about and do anything different for other than keeping her on a moderate protein food as well as yearly blood work. Which I recommend for all dogs.

However, now that I know she has been one that has been hard to get to eat from early on, maybe we need to focus on that. Perhaps she has a bit of a GI upset that has been on going? That in itself can elevate liver values. Does your holistic vet do acupuncture? If so, have him/her check the areas that indicate GI trouble. 

If she were mine, I would talk to my holistic vet about the amount of meds she's on and the duration that she's supposed to be on them. Then I would ask if it would be ok to try her on a lower protein food such as Addiction Dehydrated (reconstituted with water of course) and just the SamE. And then run a liver panel in a few months. As well as trying something to help heal the GI system if indeed she has a bit of an upset.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

20-26% would be for a DRY dog food. I feel the high fat content in higher protein foods is not appropriate for the average toy dog. My personal opinion.


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## Iubire14 (Nov 5, 2012)

So these are the balance it recipes. The second one is the liver one without reduce protein ( this is the one the vet had to ok) now I have two questions, 
The first recipe is for a normal health dog and it only has 2% more protein than the liver diet one ( called the low sodium ) and it has extra veggies which I know Sugar would eat. 


What is the difference between the two vitamins. 
Also my vet recommended a nutritionist dr Wyn. She said it is $150 ( which I don't mind paying ) and she will go over all of Sugars medical records and go from there. 

Has anyone ever used her ?


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