# Vets on Commission



## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok I heard something today and hoping i can get some clarification 

My friend came in today and told me some vets are on commission as her neighbor is a vet and told her and her husband this 

I had never heard this before and she was upset about it saying that the more they charge the client the more commission they get paid. 

Is this true? Are there referral fees paid to vets for referring to specialists like kick backs? 

My client came in today who is a vet and she stated it is true and it makes her mad as some places will do blood work, etc to rack up bill to get more commission on the client rather than referring back to the regular vet and this is done at the ER places so if they are bored for example she told me one ER did a cat spay for 4,000 rather than referring back to her for $400 saying it needed to be done immediately that night when it did not and she was really upset - she told them she would not continue to refer them business after hours if they were going to charge her clients high fees and do unnecessary things that she could do during regular hours. 

Another client of mine told me her dog jumped out a window on 4th of july and broke her shoulder and er wanted like 2,000 for the diagnostics and it was more than she paid an orthopedic for the surgery and she said they came in and gave her quote and she said no way so they came back with a lower quote - she told me never to go there as she felt like they were like used car sales men just trying to see how much money they could get out of them since they were in distress. She told them just give me some pain meds and i will take my dog to the orthopedic tomorrow as it happened on 4th of july. Is this because they were on commission that they first had one price then came back with another? Do they not have set prices for things ? This same thing happened to another friend of mine when her dog had ivermectin toxicity from a wrong dose the dermatologist gave her dog mixing to drugs ketoconazole and ivermectin they kept lowering the price as she was crying saying so my dog is going to die because i do not have 3,000? 

I was shocked today as with all the info i learn I had never learned this one before until today and it makes sense so I feel like the fool as i never questioned it just trusted I was paying what the set rate was and did not know i could negotiate my pets health care costs 

Just curious if others have any insight on this as this seems to borderline on ethics to me


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Ordering unneccessary tests and treatments for the sole purpose of increasing a clients bill would be considered unethical and I doubt many vets would do this. In any profession, I'm sure there are some that I would not consider ethical so there may in fact be a vet out there that would do this...but I really doubt that it is common. Now different vets, especially in different areas, could have vastly different prices for different procedures...but I suppose that is their right in what they choose to charge. However, if a vet is significantly higher than other vets in the area, clients will find out and not be happy..so most vets try to stay within a reasonable price range for their area. It's always a good idea to go over the tests/procedures with your vet..find out a price quote and purpose of each test. There may be some you can start with and then do others later if needed. Some clients will want to do anything possible regardless of cost, while other clients may want to do the minimum. A good vet will give their clients option and go over those options with them.

At Texas A&M University, there is a "Professional charge" every day that an animal is seen by a specialist there. That professional charge is payment that goes directly to that specialist. However it is not an outrageous fee, and the total bill for the animal does not go to the specialist so I don't see a problem with their being a part of that bill that does go directly to the specialist. I'm not aware of vets getting paid for referring clients but I don't know.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I think that there are larger corporations buying up smaller veterinary clinics these days, so anything is possible. The cynic in me does not doubt that it could be happening. 

I am on my third veterinarian with Nikki, for several reasons. One reason is that the first place ordered unnecessary tests and charged for every little thing, and the bill was outrageous. The vet we have now is in a smaller place, been there for years, and doesn't do this.

A doctor told me that this is done in the human medical industry, so why not the animals, too?


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## lawgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

I am not informed on this question, but I will share: my dog's recent neuter surgery and microchip, at a reputable and recently renovated veterinary hospital in New York, was quoted at--and came down to costing me--about $550. This is ridiculous and I know it. But I wanted to get him fixed ASAP by a good doctor, and mine is a wonderful vet. The facilities were new and state of the art. So I didn't wait in line for an appointment at a more reasonably priced vet like Bideawee or the ASPCA. If I had more time, I would have done so.

The procedure was nothing fancy--just the usual pre-anesthesia bloodwork, the surgery itself (no pulled teeth), a $70 microchip, Rimadyl after surgery, and a dose of Heartgard. But I know that $550 for a neuter is exorbitant and includes a big profit margin. There are no guidelines or pricing limitations on these kinds of pet health care services. I went to visit Florida and the low-cost spay & neuter clinic here charges $50 per neuter.

I dislike how sometimes as pet owners, we are in between a rock and a hard place when it comes to paying for necessary (and at times, unnecessary) treatments and diagnostic tests. Here's a recent NY Times article discussing skyrocketing vet bills.

*Excerpt:*

All this raises the question: Why does veterinary care cost so much?

“There has been a huge sea change in the type of technology available to the average practitioner in the past 5 to 10 years,” said Kim Roellke, a veterinarian who practices in Dutchess County, N.Y. “Now there’s technology that’s greatly enhanced our diagnostic ability. Vets want to maintain or achieve that incredible standard of care, and with that, prices skyrocket.”

But just as with human health care, how do you balance optimal care with cost?

“Ethically, it’s a really hard question,” Dr. Roellke said. “Some will say if you can’t take care of a pet, then you shouldn’t have one. But does that mean you can pay thousands for back surgery for your dog?”

Dr. Roellke said that there were usually “two or three very valid options” for treating a problem, and that when faced with an expensive decision, you should ask your veterinarian for all the alternatives.

[. . .]

. . . [Y]ou might consider medical tourism for your pet. A friend of mine was told it would cost around $1,000 to clean her two dogs’ teeth in the New York area. Since her family was planning a trip to North Carolina with the pets, she checked out the cost there. It was less than half, and her dogs ended up with shiny white teeth and a vacation.

Source: Trimming Health Care Costs When Your Patient Is A Pet, _NY Times_, May 8, 2009.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

lol that would make sense the only thing is insurance usually controls those outrageous costs and in vet care i guess the insurance company controls it if you have pet insurance but with purebreds alot of the insurance companies do not cover thing the purebreds are predispositioned for 


QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 9 2009, 07:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827807


> A doctor told me that this is done in the human medical industry, so why not the animals, too?[/B]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Yes, some vets work on commission. In my experience, it is often partial salary, partial commission. I worked in a high volume practice with this use of commission...and none of the vets would recommend something unnecessary. I agree that is a matter of ethics. 

When we work up an estimate at emergency, we try to include everything we might possibly need to do. The pet could end up being much more stable or the wounds not as bad. It is often hard to tell what will happen until the pet is stable enough for x-rays or exploring the wounds. So when we reduce an estimate, we take off all of the ideal things and work more towards the absolute necessary. That lower estimate does not mean you were getting "taken"...it means we're stepping down the level of care/diagnostics/etc. 

I don't like the atmosphere in many of the corporate-run practices...of course each is different. There will always be the good and the bad. 

The kick backs we normally get as a vet or their employee for referrals is a courtesy discount when we bring out animals to the specialists. When the specialist's employees need vaccines, we give them a courtesy discount. 

Occasionally there are emergency clinics that are run by multiple local vets who are investors. Their clients usually receive a discount on their exam fee. So yes, those vets get a financial kick back, but they are not usually the vets working in the clinic.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok thanks for explaining as the ER by us is a LLC i believe of all the vets in the area so they all get a cut of it but my client specializes in cats only and is not part of the LLC I do not believe and why she was so upset at these other vets. I have heard from many do not go to this place  so i drive 25 min away to a specialty hospital which i just found is commission based - one vet talked badly about them saying there are interns only there at night but everytime i have dealt with the interns they are really sharp as they pick only 8 a year to work there from all over the country so do the interns have to complete 2 extra years of schooling after becoming a dvm and then do a two year residency in a hospital as that is what i am finding out with specialists it is about 4 years of additional schooling between the internship and the 2 years of specialty training ? I do not mind paying extra when they have further education in a specific area if necessary so just curious how that schooling all works say for orthopedic, internal medicine, dermatology , dentistry?




QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 9 2009, 08:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827836


> Yes, some vets work on commission. In my experience, it is often partial salary, partial commission. I worked in a high volume practice with this use of commission...and none of the vets would recommend something unnecessary. I agree that is a matter of ethics.
> 
> When we work up an estimate at emergency, we try to include everything we might possibly need to do. The pet could end up being much more stable or the wounds not as bad. It is often hard to tell what will happen until the pet is stable enough for x-rays or exploring the wounds. So when we reduce an estimate, we take off all of the ideal things and work more towards the absolute necessary. That lower estimate does not mean you were getting "taken"...it means we're stepping down the level of care/diagnostics/etc.
> 
> ...


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I believe that all the vets at the clinic we go to are on salary. If not and any commission is involved, they sure don't push anything 'extra' and in fact often have had things done that were not charged for. As mentioned it may simply be a matter of ethics and in all professions and walks of life there will always be those few who don't know the meaning of the word.

I can't praise our vet clinic highly enough from vets to the to the techs to the assistants and desk personel...all are great!

I know I've mentioned that 'our' vet even bought insulin and syringes and diabetic supplies out of her own pocket for an elderly lady ( her Bichon was dx with diabetes and lady lived in senior housing and on limited income) She even went on her way to/from work to fill pre-syringes for the lady as she had difficulty seeing and also did what testing she could do there in her apt as the lady had to depend on someone to take her to the office. It's that kind of compassion and dedication that warrents my respect for her! The pet not the money is priority.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 9 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827870


> so do the interns have to complete 2 extra years of schooling after becoming a dvm and then do a two year residency in a hospital as that is what i am finding out with specialists it is about 4 years of additional schooling between the internship and the 2 years of specialty training ? I do not mind paying extra when they have further education in a specific area if necessary so just curious how that schooling all works say for orthopedic, internal medicine, dermatology , dentistry?[/B]


An intern is a recently graduated veterinarian. Those that want to do internships usually apply for one their 4th year in vet school. An internship is one year. Then if they want to become a board certified specialist they apply for a residency which is typically 3 years. Then once they pass their boards, they become a specialist.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok thanks that makes sense then so the place by me is a residency for specialists as the hospital is all specialists there so they must do 3 year residency there 

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 9 2009, 10:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827884


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 9 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827870





> so do the interns have to complete 2 extra years of schooling after becoming a dvm and then do a two year residency in a hospital as that is what i am finding out with specialists it is about 4 years of additional schooling between the internship and the 2 years of specialty training ? I do not mind paying extra when they have further education in a specific area if necessary so just curious how that schooling all works say for orthopedic, internal medicine, dermatology , dentistry?[/B]


An intern is a recently graduated veterinarian. Those that want to do internships usually apply for one their 4th year in vet school. An internship is one year. Then if they want to become a board certified specialist they apply for a residency which is typically 3 years. Then once they pass their boards, they become a specialist.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 9 2009, 11:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827898


> ok thanks that makes sense then so the place by me is a residency for specialists as the hospital is all specialists there so they must do 3 year residency there
> 
> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 9 2009, 10:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827884





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 9 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827870





> so do the interns have to complete 2 extra years of schooling after becoming a dvm and then do a two year residency in a hospital as that is what i am finding out with specialists it is about 4 years of additional schooling between the internship and the 2 years of specialty training ? I do not mind paying extra when they have further education in a specific area if necessary so just curious how that schooling all works say for orthopedic, internal medicine, dermatology , dentistry?[/B]


An intern is a recently graduated veterinarian. Those that want to do internships usually apply for one their 4th year in vet school. An internship is one year. Then if they want to become a board certified specialist they apply for a residency which is typically 3 years. Then once they pass their boards, they become a specialist.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]

Internships can be done at universities or any private practice. Residencies can be done at universities or private specialty practices.


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## DenaBear07 (Aug 7, 2007)

QUOTE (lawgirl @ Sep 9 2009, 08:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827812


> I am not informed on this question, but I will share: my dog's recent neuter surgery and microchip, at a reputable and recently renovated veterinary hospital in New York, was quoted at--and came down to costing me--about $550. This is ridiculous and I know it. But I wanted to get him fixed ASAP by a good doctor, and mine is a wonderful vet. The facilities were new and state of the art. So I didn't wait in line for an appointment at a more reasonably priced vet like Bideawee or the ASPCA. If I had more time, I would have done so.
> 
> The procedure was nothing fancy--just the usual pre-anesthesia bloodwork, the surgery itself (no pulled teeth), a $70 microchip, Rimadyl after surgery, and a dose of Heartgard. But I know that $550 for a neuter is exorbitant and includes a big profit margin. There are no guidelines or pricing limitations on these kinds of pet health care services. I went to visit Florida and the low-cost spay & neuter clinic here charges $50 per neuter.
> 
> ...



Hi! In response to your post, I'd like to point out several things. I work at a vet hospital and would like to try and clarify why a neuter/spay is so expense. When you said that the procedure was nothing fancy, just "standard pre-anesthetic bloodwork"--just so you know, not every hospital will do that, and the aspca/humane society NEVER does that. Also, places that offer cheaper spays and neuters often skip the catheter, and many times only use gas to anesthetize your animal. A catheter is important chiefly to ensure that if there is an emergency and your dog needs immediate medicine intravenously, that a vein does not have to be searched for and can be given the appropriate medication immediately. At my vet, and most others (I hope), after the surgery the technician does not leave your animals side until it can fully breathe on its own and is awake so we can extubate. At the aspca, they ufortunately do not have enough time/technicians to do this. The animal is extubated quickly and left to recover on its own. We also monitor your dogs temperature very closely. I am writing none if this with hostile feelings, but with the hopes you can better understand your vet bills (I know, it IS a lot of money). Also, the costs for us aren't cheap--catheters, medicine, medical tape and vetwrap (that stuff is expensive) and the materials and time that go into properly cleaning and sterilizing the instruments. A vet I work with reminded me once of how expensive our bill to a human doctor to get a surgery done would cost without insurance....much more! Some people take the attitude of "it's only an animal." Yes, they're animals, but the surgical methods and supplies used are just as rigorous. 

On another note, yes, the vets at the hospital I work at do receive commission in addition to their salary, but our doctors (can't speak for all of them out there) are honest and hard-working. Most of our vets that have been working for at least 15 years still have more than tens of thousands of dollars worth of student loans to pay. Anyways, I hope I helped you all understand! 

Sincerely,
Dena


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

This is so true and why when people tell me they paid a cheap price for a spay or neuter i cringe as i know the safest way to do any anesthesia is - pre blood work and urinalysis, propofol, isoflurine as sevo i have learned is not the best in small breeds, catheterization and iv fluids and if vet is not doing all of this then it is more risky and all proper screening has not been done. Also someone needs to be with dog as you stated as well as monitoring the whole procedure. I learned this on another maltese group as an owner lost her dog in a dental bc the vet did not do iv fluids and catheterization so they could not bring the dog back as they went the cheap route. I do not take any chances with mine 

I do home loans for a living and have for 18 years and have done many vet loans and here to say they are not broke lol and make a very very very good living and probably do not pay off their student loans as they are paying 3% interest - It may just be in california as it is very expensive here but my friend just spent $6500 last month on her two cocker spaniels as one has heart problems so they did all the testing for heart and the other had some other testing and a dental so we pay big money here in california i guess due to cost of living or something lol - The prob with this profession is they really do not have insurance companies monitoring their costs like human doctors do and some take advantage of that sadly. It just upsets me as alot of pet owners do not realize the cost to have pets when they get sick - I know i didn't until my dex was real sick with pancreatitis. I was in total shock at how fast a 3k vet bill added up and then 10k then 20k so now I have learned a TON of what really goes on and it is heart breaking as many owners cannot afford this and end up turning into rescue or putting the dog down. Here is what i find so upsetting you have this pet owner they love their dog and it gets real sick and they being like me had no idea the cost call us stupid so they have to give it up or the rescue will not help the dog and then the rescues need foster parents all the time so it seems that it is a vicious cycle. Now you say well the pet owner should know this upfront agreed BUT many do not just as i did not so we have all these animals in rescue, etc -- I do not know about anyone here but when i walk into a vets office I am not walking out under $100 for anything -- someone once said to me in another group so only the rich can have dogs LOLLLL well i guess the sick dogs lol because it is not cheap if something goes wrong 

Still trying to figure it all out and yes i did check into pet insurance and for purebred dogs many times they do not cover things they are predispositioned for so that sometimes can turn out to be more costly than not having pet insurance. 

I agree everyone should be entitled to a great living if they go to school and further educate themselves in a specialized profession but to make a killing as dogs are dying due to owners not able to afford vet care when a dog is sick and that is upsetting to me. 

I personally started educating myself because of all this as i thought man i am going to go broke if i do not start educating myself and having 3 dogs two of which have health issues so i cannot afford to make mistakes here 



QUOTE (DenaBear07 @ Sep 27 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834483


> QUOTE (lawgirl @ Sep 9 2009, 08:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=827812





> I am not informed on this question, but I will share: my dog's recent neuter surgery and microchip, at a reputable and recently renovated veterinary hospital in New York, was quoted at--and came down to costing me--about $550. This is ridiculous and I know it. But I wanted to get him fixed ASAP by a good doctor, and mine is a wonderful vet. The facilities were new and state of the art. So I didn't wait in line for an appointment at a more reasonably priced vet like Bideawee or the ASPCA. If I had more time, I would have done so.
> 
> The procedure was nothing fancy--just the usual pre-anesthesia bloodwork, the surgery itself (no pulled teeth), a $70 microchip, Rimadyl after surgery, and a dose of Heartgard. But I know that $550 for a neuter is exorbitant and includes a big profit margin. There are no guidelines or pricing limitations on these kinds of pet health care services. I went to visit Florida and the low-cost spay & neuter clinic here charges $50 per neuter.
> 
> ...



Hi! In response to your post, I'd like to point out several things. I work at a vet hospital and would like to try and clarify why a neuter/spay is so expense. When you said that the procedure was nothing fancy, just "standard pre-anesthetic bloodwork"--just so you know, not every hospital will do that, and the aspca/humane society NEVER does that. Also, places that offer cheaper spays and neuters often skip the catheter, and many times only use gas to anesthetize your animal. A catheter is important chiefly to ensure that if there is an emergency and your dog needs immediate medicine intravenously, that a vein does not have to be searched for and can be given the appropriate medication immediately. At my vet, and most others (I hope), after the surgery the technician does not leave your animals side until it can fully breathe on its own and is awake so we can extubate. At the aspca, they ufortunately do not have enough time/technicians to do this. The animal is extubated quickly and left to recover on its own. We also monitor your dogs temperature very closely. I am writing none if this with hostile feelings, but with the hopes you can better understand your vet bills (I know, it IS a lot of money). Also, the costs for us aren't cheap--catheters, medicine, medical tape and vetwrap (that stuff is expensive) and the materials and time that go into properly cleaning and sterilizing the instruments. A vet I work with reminded me once of how expensive our bill to a human doctor to get a surgery done would cost without insurance....much more! Some people take the attitude of "it's only an animal." Yes, they're animals, but the surgical methods and supplies used are just as rigorous. 

On another note, yes, the vets at the hospital I work at do receive commission in addition to their salary, but our doctors (can't speak for all of them out there) are honest and hard-working. Most of our vets that have been working for at least 15 years still have more than tens of thousands of dollars worth of student loans to pay. Anyways, I hope I helped you all understand! 

Sincerely,
Dena
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Vets do have to make a living too. When you pay a $600 vet bill, the vet isnt putting that $600 in their pocket. They have to pay salary to the receptionist and vet techs, pay bills like electricity, water, rent, and pay for the cost of supplies and drugs used to treat your pet. You're also paying a professional to treat your pet. As the poster above said, medical care for humans cost way more than vet care and it's usually for similar procedures. I hate that animals don't get properly treated when their owner can't afford it but you can't blame the vet. It's the owners fault...pets cost money period. Most vets volunteer their services for free or discounted cost in some way but they can't do it all the time. Vets need to make a living too and deserve to make a good one. Most vets aren't trying to make money at the expense of the animals though. Most become vets because they care about and want to help animals


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

well just an fyi Vets make way more money than human doctors like triple -- I do the home loans gf I see the tax returns now why is that ? Not trying to combative but when i see animals dying and i see these tax returns it really is very upsetting to me 


QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 27 2009, 10:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834508


> Vets do have to make a living too. When you pay a $600 vet bill, the vet isnt putting that $600 in their pocket. They have to pay salary to the receptionist and vet techs, pay bills like electricity, water, rent, and pay for the cost of supplies and drugs used to treat your pet. You're also paying a professional to treat your pet. As the poster above said, medical care for humans cost way more than vet care and it's usually for similar procedures. I hate that animals don't get properly treated when their owner can't afford it but you can't blame the vet. It's the owners fault...pets cost money period. Most vets volunteer their services for free or discounted cost in some way but they can't do it all the time. Vets need to make a living too and deserve to make a good one. Most vets aren't trying to make money at the expense of the animals though. Most become vets because they care about and want to help animals[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

oh and also human doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance which vets do not have to pay for so i guess we should kick it up to 4 times what a human doctor makes


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

We have both a large animal vet. and a small animal Vet. and I have utmost respect and appreciation for their knowledge and expertise. If you compare it to human medicine - they have similar training to a physician and they have to be trained in areas such as pharmacology, surgery, dentistry, radiology, pathology, parasitology, and emergency medicine. (I know I've probably left out a lot of areas) I oftentimes think how LITTLE they're paid compared to physicians. Also, our large animal Vet. is in a single practice and is pretty much "on call" all the time for equine emergencies. 


I looked online for a veterinary curriculum and I've posted a link to the first one I found.:



Veterinary Curriculum 





Joy


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Trust me if you saw the tax returns i have seen over 18 years you would not think it is Little LOL they are paid very well for it - but then again in so cal we do not have Vet Colleges to go to inorder to keep the cost down we pay top dollar unless we want to drive 8 hrs to UCDAVIS -- It is not about disrespect it is about animals dying due to high cost of vet care that upsets me - if animals were not dying and going into rescues due to owners not being able to pay vet care I would have no problem charge away but it saddens me that it is happening alot these days and rescues can only do so much as their resources are limited and many shelters are kill shelters as the no kill shelters are packed 

Also MOST vets are not on call 24/7 at least not in our area they all have on their phone after hours go to the ER of which in our area they are all part owner in that too so that is an LLC which most are partners in so the vets in our area are M-F 8-6 and saturdays 9-2 usually 


QUOTE (vjw @ Sep 27 2009, 11:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834526


> We have both a large animal vet. and a small animal Vet. and I have utmost respect and appreciation for their knowledge and expertise. If you compare it to human medicine - they have similar training to a physician and they have to be trained in areas such as pharmacology, surgery, dentistry, radiology, pathology, parasitology, and emergency medicine. (I know I've probably left out a lot of areas) I oftentimes think how LITTLE they're paid compared to physicians. Also, our large animal Vet. is in a single practice and is pretty much "on call" all the time for equine emergencies.
> 
> 
> I looked online for a veterinary curriculum and I've posted a link to the first one I found.:
> ...


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834513


> well just an fyi Vets make way more money than human doctors like triple -- I do the home loans gf I see the tax returns now why is that ? Not trying to combative but when i see animals dying and i see these tax returns it really is very upsetting to me
> 
> 
> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 27 2009, 10:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834508





> Vets do have to make a living too. When you pay a $600 vet bill, the vet isnt putting that $600 in their pocket. They have to pay salary to the receptionist and vet techs, pay bills like electricity, water, rent, and pay for the cost of supplies and drugs used to treat your pet. You're also paying a professional to treat your pet. As the poster above said, medical care for humans cost way more than vet care and it's usually for similar procedures. I hate that animals don't get properly treated when their owner can't afford it but you can't blame the vet. It's the owners fault...pets cost money period. Most vets volunteer their services for free or discounted cost in some way but they can't do it all the time. Vets need to make a living too and deserve to make a good one. Most vets aren't trying to make money at the expense of the animals though. Most become vets because they care about and want to help animals[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but do you personally know every doctor and vets financial situation? Statement like this are really uncalled for in my opinion. It is the pet owners responsibility to provide for their pet, just as it is a parents responsibility to provide for their child. If vets constantly treated pets for free, more and more people would expect free services and the vet and their office would go into debt and could not afford to be open to see pets. It costs a lot of time and money to become a vet and most vets are in the business because they care about the animals. But they do have to get paid. I'm tired of some people blaming vets for pets not receiving vet care when it's the owners fault for getting a pet the can't afford. Most vets I know do give their time and money by helping rescues, shelters, etc. But the world we live in does cost money to live and therfor we must all make money to live in it


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

thankyou joy. I'm a second year vet student at Texas A&M. It has taken a lot of very hard work to get where I currently am and I still have a long way to go. My education has also been costly so far. Do I want to make money one day? Heck yes I do. Don't most people want to make money whehln they go to work every day? However money was not at all my main motivation to become a vet. I could do plenty of other things and make more money. I have always loved animals. My pets are my babies and I know most people consider their pet a family member. I want to do my best to treat tge pets that willl come to me one day. There is plenty that frustrates me about most vets in general such as lack of understanding good nutrition and holistic treatments, etc, but what vets charge is not one of them. I've experienced high vet bills as well and it wasn't easy for me but do I think I was overcharged? No way. And it's my responsibility as a pet owner to be able to care for MY pet. I hope to be a great vet one day and help a lot of pets and their owners..I want to volunteer to do free spats and neuters and I want to foster rescue dogs one day..but I would also like to have a decent income as well and I don't think there is anything wrong with that considering the time and money and hard work I've put into becoming a vet 

QUOTE (vjw @ Sep 27 2009, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834526


> We have both a large animal vet. and a small animal Vet. and I have utmost respect and appreciation for their knowledge and expertise. If you compare it to human medicine - they have similar training to a physician and they have to be trained in areas such as pharmacology, surgery, dentistry, radiology, pathology, parasitology, and emergency medicine. (I know I've probably left out a lot of areas) I oftentimes think how LITTLE they're paid compared to physicians. Also, our large animal Vet. is in a single practice and is pretty much "on call" all the time for equine emergencies.
> 
> 
> I looked online for a veterinary curriculum and I've posted a link to the first one I found.:
> ...


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

nope but in 18 years of doing a lot of loans have seen enough to know at least in our area - Yes and parents have health insurance to cover their kids and hmo are not that much money and insurance companies regulate human care unlike vet care as it is not regulated by anyone and human doctors pay malpractice insurance also some parents that have no money get help from the state all of which pet owners do not get because they are JUST A DOG i guess so we can just put them down unlike humans 

No one has stated here to treat a dog for free as obviously they would not be in business but for example in california the cost for liver shunt surgery is 4,000-6,000 so people fly to tennessee to pay 2,000 now come on don't you think the surgery could be the same cost here why so much different because our weather is better and real estate more expensive. Maybe in other states the cost of vet care is much less as they have university hospitals as competition not sure 

Also many people go to college and have student loans and spend many years getting educated in the profession they choose but that does not mean that they make a ton of money in what they do and they are helping people in what they do as well so it bothers me that this is always a justification well they went to school and have student loans welcome to having a college degree and it is not cheap for anyone unless their parents can afford to flip the bill most will have student loans in getting a degree. People have phd and are getting $12 an hour jobs in this economy how sad is that ? 

Not meaning to fire everyone up but I just do not understand it and probably never will sadly 


QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 27 2009, 11:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834543


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834513





> well just an fyi Vets make way more money than human doctors like triple -- I do the home loans gf I see the tax returns now why is that ? Not trying to combative but when i see animals dying and i see these tax returns it really is very upsetting to me
> 
> 
> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 27 2009, 10:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834508





> Vets do have to make a living too. When you pay a $600 vet bill, the vet isnt putting that $600 in their pocket. They have to pay salary to the receptionist and vet techs, pay bills like electricity, water, rent, and pay for the cost of supplies and drugs used to treat your pet. You're also paying a professional to treat your pet. As the poster above said, medical care for humans cost way more than vet care and it's usually for similar procedures. I hate that animals don't get properly treated when their owner can't afford it but you can't blame the vet. It's the owners fault...pets cost money period. Most vets volunteer their services for free or discounted cost in some way but they can't do it all the time. Vets need to make a living too and deserve to make a good one. Most vets aren't trying to make money at the expense of the animals though. Most become vets because they care about and want to help animals[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but do you personally know every doctor and vets financial situation? Statement like this are really uncalled for in my opinion. It is the pet owners responsibility to provide for their pet, just as it is a parents responsibility to provide for their child. If vets constantly treated pets for free, more and more people would expect free services and the vet and their office would go into debt and could not afford to be open to see pets. It costs a lot of time and money to become a vet and most vets are in the business because they care about the animals. But they do have to get paid. I'm tired of some people blaming vets for pets not receiving vet care when it's the owners fault for getting a pet the can't afford. Most vets I know do give their time and money by helping rescues, shelters, etc. But the world we live in does cost money to live and therfor we must all make money to live in it
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I think you will be a great vet and have not doubt since i know you love your animals and will make a difference and yes you should be entitled to a good living and no one is knocking that and hopefully you will be compassionate for pet owners that are less fortunate in your practice. 

Here is what i think is sad. A teacher has to get the most continuing education of any profession out there and gets paid the least of many college educated professions but they do it because they love children. Many times they kick in their own money to get supplies for their children - they have student loans as well so shouldn't they make alot more money since they are educating our children to go to college. What is the difference and i am talking about the ones that work year round. Vets get into it because they love pets and teachers teach because they love children. Vets complete their education but not forced to do continuing education like teachers are so why the justification to make so much more money. 

I just think when people can make a difference they should and help each other as some people are not as fortunate as others 

I have always paid my vet bills and i tend to go to specialists and pay more than what most do and have no problem with that it is the people that have to give their pets up to rescue and the ones on the groups that want so desperately to keep their pet but a 4-6k surgery is just not in their budget - these are the people that i feel bad for as I know they want to have a pet and thought they could afford it and whamo the dog gets sick and before you know it the bill is 4k - This is why i try to educate people that come on to the groups that are looking to get a dog and i say make sure you have the financial means to take care of it if it gets sick as this is very important. 


QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 28 2009, 12:05 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834553


> thankyou joy. I'm a second year vet student at Texas A&M. It has taken a lot of very hard work to get where I currently am and I still have a long way to go. My education has also been costly so far. Do I want to make money one day? Heck yes I do. Don't most people want to make money whehln they go to work every day? However money was not at all my main motivation to become a vet. I could do plenty of other things and make more money. I have always loved animals. My pets are my babies and I know most people consider their pet a family member. I want to do my best to treat tge pets that willl come to me one day. There is plenty that frustrates me about most vets in general such as lack of understanding good nutrition and holistic treatments, etc, but what vets charge is not one of them. I've experienced high vet bills as well and it wasn't easy for me but do I think I was overcharged? No way. And it's my responsibility as a pet owner to be able to care for MY pet. I hope to be a great vet one day and help a lot of pets and their owners..I want to volunteer to do free spats and neuters and I want to foster rescue dogs one day..but I would also like to have a decent income as well and I don't think there is anything wrong with that considering the time and money and hard work I've put into becoming a vet
> 
> QUOTE (vjw @ Sep 27 2009, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834526





> We have both a large animal vet. and a small animal Vet. and I have utmost respect and appreciation for their knowledge and expertise. If you compare it to human medicine - they have similar training to a physician and they have to be trained in areas such as pharmacology, surgery, dentistry, radiology, pathology, parasitology, and emergency medicine. (I know I've probably left out a lot of areas) I oftentimes think how LITTLE they're paid compared to physicians. Also, our large animal Vet. is in a single practice and is pretty much "on call" all the time for equine emergencies.
> 
> 
> I looked online for a veterinary curriculum and I've posted a link to the first one I found.:
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

No, there is NO WAY a vet in private practice in an area like So.Cal can compete with the prices at UT. NO WAY. Perhaps you are not aware of the economy in TN or the fact that vet schools receive funding beyond paying clients. There is no comparison in those prices. I have a dog with an interesting case...and I know UT doesn't charge for each and every thing because some of the testing they wanted to do for their own knowledge. In private practice somebody has to pay for something like that because there is no source to absorb the costs. I feel very lucky to work with such a great vet school and I know my private practice internist in Northern VA could never compete with UT's prices. 

I have worked in an expensive area of the country and I have seen the costs to run that practice vs. a practice in Nowhere, TN. It is a ridiculously higher amount just to run the building and pay the staff. Deb, do some research before making blanket statements. Until you audit multiple clinics in multiple places, you are making dangerous statements telling people they should expect the same costs. 

I want to get paid for my work, too. Its not just the vets pocketing every "extra" dollar.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 28 2009, 09:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834613


> No, there is NO WAY a vet in private practice in an area like So.Cal can compete with the prices at UT. NO WAY. Perhaps you are not aware of the economy in TN or the fact that vet schools receive funding beyond paying clients. There is no comparison in those prices. I have a dog with an interesting case...and I know UT doesn't charge for each and every thing because some of the testing they wanted to do for their own knowledge. In private practice somebody has to pay for something like that because there is no source to absorb the costs. I feel very lucky to work with such a great vet school and I know my private practice internist in Northern VA could never compete with UT's prices.
> 
> I have worked in an expensive area of the country and I have seen the costs to run that practice vs. a practice in Nowhere, TN. It is a ridiculously higher amount just to run the building and pay the staff. Deb, do some research before making blanket statements. Until you audit multiple clinics in multiple places, you are making dangerous statements telling people they should expect the same costs.
> 
> I want to get paid for my work, too. Its not just the vets pocketing every "extra" dollar.[/B]


Good post! :goodpost: 

I saw a huge decrease in the cost of veterinary care since I moved just an hour away from Raleigh, North Carolina last year. I certainly don't think my vets in Raleigh were ripping me off. The cost of living is simply higher there. Car mechanics, dentists, all the services are cheaper where I live now.

I also take Lady to the vet school (ophthalmology) and it is significantly less expensive than the wonderful ophthalmologist we used to see in private practice. Our tax dollars fund NC State Vet School so of course it is less expensive.

As JMM said, do your research before making blanket statements disparaging veterinarians. :thmbdn:


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I was stating in my area and when you see the tax returns that has every cost factored into their income so that is my beef here in california and those costs are inflated even in a tax return due to depreciation of assets in a tax return so what i am seeing is the WHOLE financial picture in what i have seen and one of them ONLY DOES CATS and has a huge income so she does not even see dogs. I have done alot of vet loans in the past 18 years here in cali and I work in a bank so i see alot. I am speaking from my experience in what i have actually reviewed as I have also been an underwriter in the past reviewing tax returns for 18 years so I know what real income is and bogus write offs to reduce your taxes to be paid to irs. Have you ever actually seen a vets Tax Returns? 


QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 28 2009, 09:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834613


> No, there is NO WAY a vet in private practice in an area like So.Cal can compete with the prices at UT. NO WAY. Perhaps you are not aware of the economy in TN or the fact that vet schools receive funding beyond paying clients. There is no comparison in those prices. I have a dog with an interesting case...and I know UT doesn't charge for each and every thing because some of the testing they wanted to do for their own knowledge. In private practice somebody has to pay for something like that because there is no source to absorb the costs. I feel very lucky to work with such a great vet school and I know my private practice internist in Northern VA could never compete with UT's prices.
> 
> I have worked in an expensive area of the country and I have seen the costs to run that practice vs. a practice in Nowhere, TN. It is a ridiculously higher amount just to run the building and pay the staff. Deb, do some research before making blanket statements. Until you audit multiple clinics in multiple places, you are making dangerous statements telling people they should expect the same costs.
> 
> I want to get paid for my work, too. Its not just the vets pocketing every "extra" dollar.[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

So have you read a Vet Tax Return ? I have for 18 years so I have done my research well enough I See Income and Expenses as it is all on the Tax Return and i Review personal and business when doing a loan so I see it all 


QUOTE (LadysMom @ Sep 28 2009, 10:14 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834644


> QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 28 2009, 09:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834613





> No, there is NO WAY a vet in private practice in an area like So.Cal can compete with the prices at UT. NO WAY. Perhaps you are not aware of the economy in TN or the fact that vet schools receive funding beyond paying clients. There is no comparison in those prices. I have a dog with an interesting case...and I know UT doesn't charge for each and every thing because some of the testing they wanted to do for their own knowledge. In private practice somebody has to pay for something like that because there is no source to absorb the costs. I feel very lucky to work with such a great vet school and I know my private practice internist in Northern VA could never compete with UT's prices.
> 
> I have worked in an expensive area of the country and I have seen the costs to run that practice vs. a practice in Nowhere, TN. It is a ridiculously higher amount just to run the building and pay the staff. Deb, do some research before making blanket statements. Until you audit multiple clinics in multiple places, you are making dangerous statements telling people they should expect the same costs.
> 
> I want to get paid for my work, too. Its not just the vets pocketing every "extra" dollar.[/B]


Good post! :goodpost: 

I saw a huge decrease in the cost of veterinary care since I moved just an hour away from Raleigh, North Carolina last year. I certainly don't think my vets in Raleigh were ripping me off. The cost of living is simply higher there. Car mechanics, dentists, all the services are cheaper where I live now.

I also take Lady to the vet school (ophthalmology) and it is significantly less expensive than the wonderful ophthalmologist we used to see in private practice. Our tax dollars fund NC State Vet School so of course it is less expensive.

As JMM said, do your research before making blanket statements disparaging veterinarians. :thmbdn:
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

and someone posted on here Wow there are alot of malts in rescue in southern cali hmmmm i wonder why? :bysmilie: maybe we can tell the owners just to move out of state so they can go to a vet hospital and keep their dogs


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

It's no secret we all pay a lot for medical and veterinary care. I don't mind paying a reasonable amount of money, but things are getting so expensive that an average person can barely afford minimal medical/veterinary care. Knowing how much a doctor/veterinarian makes is only one part of the big picture. The amount of money they have to borrow to pay for their education is obscene. Education is ridiculously overpriced, so good people who believe that a career in medicine is a noble vocation, have to get on the loan/repayment treadmill, which certainly puts a damper on a career. 

So who provides the money for govt student loans? Ultimately it is the taxpayers, as we are the government. So not only do we pay for the medical care or procedure, but for the caregiver's initial student loan, and for the repayment of that caregiver's loan. How long can this go on? Some people can barely pay their mortgages and live paycheck to paycheck, and this includes the caregivers, too. 

Things have gotten so ridiculously big and bureaucratic in the medical industry and the education industry that I long for the "olden" days when medical care and pharmaceutical products weren't such a huge zillion dollar industry, and dogs and people ate a better diet and didn't require so much medical care and prescription drugs. 

I think that we should have human/dog medical insurance like we have car insurance. People/dogs who have less illness and less trips to the doc pay a lower premium. This way my rates won't go up because of a person who doesn't want to take care of their health or purposely neglects their dog.

I don't mind that veterinarians work on commission, but what I do mind is the greed of the entire industry that forces people and caregivers into situations where money runs everything.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, I for one do carry Health Insurance for both of my dogs. I feel it is my responsiblity to them. I have been very happy with it to date. It pays about 80% after a $120.00/yr. deductible. It gives me peace of mind knowing that I can visit my vet anytime I need to, and not worry about how I will afford it. And like many heath plans, it also covers some preventative things.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

which one do you carry pam? and how much is it a year for the plan? As i checked out VPI extensively when dex was so sick and I believe 3 years ago it was $650 a year with cancer rider and i went over my bill thoroughly with the rep on the phone and he said they would have covered $500 of my 6k bill for dex so i figured i would have been worse off having the insurance for two years prior to him being sick as he was very healthy up until that point at two years old so i would have paid $1300 and then only covered for $500 as they set the limit on each disease and on pancreatitis it was $500 and he said he was not even sure they would cover it as they go by the akc and vet medical journal and if yorkies are predispositioned to it then it will not be covered at all and yorkies are so I was not impressed with this plan - Now i have a friend who has been using 24hourwatch.com pet plan and very pleased as she spent oh 50k plus in vet bills for her 6 dogs and that is in New Jersey - they said they will not cover pre-existing but she seems to be very happy with it 

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 28 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834691


> Well, I for one do carry Health Insurance for both of my dogs. I feel it is my responsiblity to them. I have been very happy with it to date. It pays about 80% after a $120.00/yr. deductible. It gives me peace of mind knowing that I can visit my vet anytime I need to, and not worry about how I will afford it. And like many heath plans, it also covers some preventative things.[/B]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Deb, you are looking at information for ONE economic zone. Are you looking at the actual practice's income or a vet's? Do you see their expenses from property tax to inventory to paying employees to landscaping, etc. etc. etc. Two VERY different things. Most larger practices are corporations and you would need to be looking at more than a vet's tax return. Yes, I have been privy to the financial information. Which is why you CANNOT compare the cost at UT to the cost of private practice in So Cal.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 28 2009, 01:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834726


> Deb, you are looking at information for ONE economic zone. Are you looking at the actual practice's income or a vet's? Do you see their expenses from property tax to inventory to paying employees to landscaping, etc. etc. etc. Two VERY different things. Most larger practices are corporations and you would need to be looking at more than a vet's tax return. Yes, I have been privy to the financial information. Which is why you CANNOT compare the cost at UT to the cost of private practice in So Cal.[/B]


There are SO many expenses that have to be taken into consideration when running a business, it's true. Making a living is one thing, greed is another. Most honest individual vets are not greedy. It's the large corps who are taking over the smaller vet practices, preying on vulnerable people who love their pets, the pet food manufacturers, and the pharm companies that are the greeders. Unfortunately, they are very good at persuading caregivers to perform more tests than necessary, and to use their food/pharm products. I can't place much blame on the caregivers for this, often they haven't the time to do hours of their own research and sometimes have to rely on others to offer solutions to symptoms.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 28 2009, 09:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834695


> which one do you carry pam? and how much is it a year for the plan? As i checked out VPI extensively when dex was so sick and I believe 3 years ago it was $650 a year with cancer rider and i went over my bill thoroughly with the rep on the phone and he said they would have covered $500 of my 6k bill for dex so i figured i would have been worse off having the insurance for two years prior to him being sick as he was very healthy up until that point at two years old so i would have paid $1300 and then only covered for $500 as they set the limit on each disease and on pancreatitis it was $500 and he said he was not even sure they would cover it as they go by the akc and vet medical journal and if yorkies are predispositioned to it then it will not be covered at all and yorkies are so I was not impressed with this plan - Now i have a friend who has been using 24hourwatch.com pet plan and very pleased as she spent oh 50k plus in vet bills for her 6 dogs and that is in New Jersey - they said they will not cover pre-existing but she seems to be very happy with it
> 
> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 28 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834691





> Well, I for one do carry Health Insurance for both of my dogs. I feel it is my responsiblity to them. I have been very happy with it to date. It pays about 80% after a $120.00/yr. deductible. It gives me peace of mind knowing that I can visit my vet anytime I need to, and not worry about how I will afford it. And like many heath plans, it also covers some preventative things.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

I have the premium AKC policy. It is about 800.00/year (each) including the deductible. It covers vaccines, meds visits etc. and even all of the Frontline etc, flea and heartworm meds. I think the top out is at $15,000. I did not break even on Frankie last year but more than made up with Lola when she hurt her back. We had an ER visit, X-rays, etc. etc. It covered 80% of all that. Oh, it paid for the dental too, even the pre-op blood work. I just like knowing that I have a backup plan. I never think twice about going in to check out even little stuff. And now it looks like Lola might be hypothyroid. Her blood panel alone was $280.00 If so, she will require daily meds, and they will be covered.


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

i dont know any human doctor that makes less than me. only the ones still in their residency. if they do make more where u r maybe thats where i need to go. i am on production..make a small percent of my services and a very small percent of certain meds...everything else i dont get any pay for that includes food...not a dime. i never recommend things that are unnecessary. if a vet were to do that they sure wouldnt last long. i take it one step at a time. there is no point running thousands of tests when the owners wont be able to treat their babies after the fact. i give lots away...u never see that in a human practice. if i tell my dr i cant afford it...tough. and owner tells me they cant afford it and its necessary then i find a way. we get nothing for referrals...we refer clients to places b/c we want them to have the best care and when they get the best they know it. we are one of the most expensive practices in the area but u get what u pay for. there r many that realize it and thats why they continue to come to us. i dont know why u have such negative opinions on vets.....growing up i always looked up to mine...and now im glad to be someone that others look up to.


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## lawgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

QUOTE (DenaBear07 @ Sep 27 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834483


> Hi! In response to your post, I'd like to point out several things. I work at a vet hospital and would like to try and clarify why a neuter/spay is so expense. When you said that the procedure was nothing fancy, just "standard pre-anesthetic bloodwork"--just so you know, not every hospital will do that, and the aspca/humane society NEVER does that. Also, places that offer cheaper spays and neuters often skip the catheter, and many times only use gas to anesthetize your animal. A catheter is important chiefly to ensure that if there is an emergency and your dog needs immediate medicine intravenously, that a vein does not have to be searched for and can be given the appropriate medication immediately. At my vet, and most others (I hope), after the surgery the technician does not leave your animals side until it can fully breathe on its own and is awake so we can extubate. At the aspca, they ufortunately do not have enough time/technicians to do this. The animal is extubated quickly and left to recover on its own. We also monitor your dogs temperature very closely. I am writing none if this with hostile feelings, but with the hopes you can better understand your vet bills (I know, it IS a lot of money). Also, the costs for us aren't cheap--catheters, medicine, medical tape and vetwrap (that stuff is expensive) and the materials and time that go into properly cleaning and sterilizing the instruments. A vet I work with reminded me once of how expensive our bill to a human doctor to get a surgery done would cost without insurance....much more! Some people take the attitude of "it's only an animal." Yes, they're animals, but the surgical methods and supplies used are just as rigorous.
> 
> On another note, yes, the vets at the hospital I work at do receive commission in addition to their salary, but our doctors (can't speak for all of them out there) are honest and hard-working. Most of our vets that have been working for at least 15 years still have more than tens of thousands of dollars worth of student loans to pay. Anyways, I hope I helped you all understand!
> 
> ...


Thank you for your well-written and thoughtful post, Dena. I completely agree with you that when my private vet bills run higher than at the humane society's, I am paying for a relatively higher quality of pre- and post-op care and individualized attention to the dog, as well as for better equipment and possibly more experienced hands in the operating room. I can also greatly sympathize with the issue of vet's loans for those young doctors just starting out; I myself have incurred educational debt going through law school.

To clarify: The primary point of my post was to point out that _even controlling for wide geographic differences in cost of living_ (say, between a quiet midwest residential area versus a coastal metropolitan city), the veterinary health care industry as a whole is not nearly as regulated as the human health care industry--which leaves the ceiling wide open for how astronomically high vet bills can run when your pet contracts a disease or injury that requires immediate medical help (which can happen to any pet owner, even the most cautious and well-educated). Thus, even assuming the geographic variance in vet costs for comparable services rendered, *there is still no upward limit on the "mark-up" at the vet's office*--except, perhaps, sheer market competition. (E.g., I paid $14 for 5 tiny tablets of Metronidazole from the vet; they cost $0.08 per tablet online.) But in a city like New York, even market competition keeps prices fairly high; I would argue that with the influx of well-to-do dog owners in Manhattan, the market drives many of the cost of pet-related services even higher (including day care, dog walkers, grooming).

That is why, as a consumer and dog parent, I do choose to pay more for peace of mind and better quality of care at a pricey vet, but that is purely because I am much more risk-averse. I'm a walking example of behavioral economics. (I also tend to remain loyal to a vet who is kind and attentive, as mine is, regardless of cost.) Nevertheless, consumers who can tolerate a higher degree of psychological risk do quite well sending their beloved pets to Bideawee and other humane society-operated vets: the health outcomes are basically the same (many rescue dogs at ASPCA and other non-municipal shelters receive great veterinary care, and recent graduates of vet school often complete residencies at humane society shelters for the experience and autonomy of the work).

But wouldn't it be nice if the upper limit on vets' mark-up were more predictable or manageable in general for pet owners? I think this was Deb's point. As someone here has noted, the medical malpractice suits that drive up costs in the human health care industry are not applicable in the veterinary sector. Therefore some other reason motivates the wide disparity in cost, after controlling for geographic differences: namely, the profit margin. This is true for any business, the health care industry included.

Dena, I wish you the very best of luck as you continue your career at the hospital, and thank you for your helpful and well-considered post. I'm glad I had a chance to clarify my earlier thoughts on this.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Vets may not have malpractice like human doctors, but they can still be sued and brought up on charges with the state board of veterinary medicine. It is not without consequence if you chose to accuse a vet of malpractice. Don't ever feel like you should keep your mouth shut if a vet does something you deem inappropriate. My only advice is to get your complete record and have another vet review it before you place a complaint with the state vet. False accusations based on misinterpretation or outright spite can still have your vet and/or vet's staff called up by the board. I've seen it happen before where the owner was upset at the outcome, but nothing wrong was done. We love our pets and are emotional about them. Cool off and get a review of the record before you do anything. 

NEVER hesitate to call your vet for an estimate for elective services. And don't hesitate to call your local emergency vet and find out what their exam fees are and what an average hospital stay over night runs (they'll only be able to ballpark you here). Remember when calling a new vet, it is difficult to estimate for surgeries and procedures without having seen your pet. You may get the response of we have to see your pet or this is a general cost but we can't be accurate without seeing your pet. If you call for a dental and get told $150 that may be for only the dental, not labwork, antibiotics, iv catheter, etc. Your regular vet should be able to provide you with an itemized estimate. Don't ever feel bad about asking for an estimate. When my dogs have something big done, sure I'll do it no matter what, but I still don't want to be shocked when I check out (and warn hubby before I use his card LOL).


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

yes i look at corporate returns and personal returns so yes i see every expense on the business returns for the ENTIRE practice as they are 100% owner of the practice so on a business return it shows the whole practice they own and then on the personal it shows what they paid themselves out in w2 when it is a corporation but they can still show profit in the business as well and carry that forward or pull it all out and we add back depreciation as that is a paper write off but hit them for all other expenses on the business returns such as rents, salaries, etc all actual expenses are on the business return and they show everything so they do not have to pay taxes so we see it all and of course it is even inflated as most self employed people inflate their losses and expenses so they do not have to pay the irs yet complain when they cannot qualify for a loan sorry you cannot have it both ways as when you really qualify for a loan we qualify on what you actually claim to the irs not what they are really making - no mor shenanigans in the loan business it is a FULL DOC world Now so we see it all 



QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 28 2009, 01:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834726


> Deb, you are looking at information for ONE economic zone. Are you looking at the actual practice's income or a vet's? Do you see their expenses from property tax to inventory to paying employees to landscaping, etc. etc. etc. Two VERY different things. Most larger practices are corporations and you would need to be looking at more than a vet's tax return. Yes, I have been privy to the financial information. Which is why you CANNOT compare the cost at UT to the cost of private practice in So Cal.[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

yeah i get estimates on everything unless obviously it is an emergency situation then not like you can check around 

I thought you can only take them to small claims court as animals are considered property so the max is like $5k or or something as my neighbor went after the pet store that sold her a sick dog and that is all she got so i would think that is all you can do from a vet but i was aware you could file a complaint against their license though 

yeah my friend almost took dermatologist to small claims court as she caused her dog to get ivermectin toxicity by mixing ketaconozole and ivermectin together thus causing her dog to go into a coma as ketaconozole breaks the blood barrier wall allowing ivermectin to go straight to the brain. Her dog was walking in a drunken stupor which is a sign of ivermectin toxicity yet the derm told her to lower dose and keep giving well the next dose did her in and put her into a coma. It cost my friend 3k in vet bills for that derm mistake and my friend was afraid to do anything for fear of being black balled in the vet profession. It was a bunch of errors with her as well they sedated her too long suctioned her trachea then she got pneumonia and they transported her to the derm hospital as she wanted to have her at her hospital and they transported a dog with pneumonia with hot water bottles which could have sent her into seizures - it was a total nightmare - oh that friend is afraid to take her dog to the vet too lol - the derm apologized and said oh your friend is right as i learned about what happened on the internet as i posted the two drugs she took and emailed my friend and derm said i was right - her dog has demodex mange and there really was no need for ketoconazole but you never mix those two drugs just like you never mix nsaids and steroids. This derm has been around for 20 years and so glad i do not go to her as almost did as she is closer but i go to one a little further away who is young and very sharp - she had been seeing the one i go to but did not want to drive as far so i recommended to my friend this other one as heard so many great things and felt horrible when she did this to my friends dog. She is now back with the derm i go to and her dog is doing ok but the vet that gave dd nsaid and steroids told me to tell my friend to put her down she will never be the same but our regular vet said no she will wake up it is like sleeping beauty she will be fine and he called and checked on her for me so I told my friend to hang tight she will be ok but the bills were racking up and funds are tight for her but luckily she came through just fine despite the errors -- the derm even said to my friend i bet you think this is a conspiracy to kill your dog with all the errors that have been made and my friend said lady i just want my dog to be ok at this point and i want to get her home asap so i can care for her and now my friend is fearful of vets and lost trust 



QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 28 2009, 10:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834920


> Vets may not have malpractice like human doctors, but they can still be sued and brought up on charges with the state board of veterinary medicine. It is not without consequence if you chose to accuse a vet of malpractice. Don't ever feel like you should keep your mouth shut if a vet does something you deem inappropriate. My only advice is to get your complete record and have another vet review it before you place a complaint with the state vet. False accusations based on misinterpretation or outright spite can still have your vet and/or vet's staff called up by the board. I've seen it happen before where the owner was upset at the outcome, but nothing wrong was done. We love our pets and are emotional about them. Cool off and get a review of the record before you do anything.
> 
> NEVER hesitate to call your vet for an estimate for elective services. And don't hesitate to call your local emergency vet and find out what their exam fees are and what an average hospital stay over night runs (they'll only be able to ballpark you here). Remember when calling a new vet, it is difficult to estimate for surgeries and procedures without having seen your pet. You may get the response of we have to see your pet or this is a general cost but we can't be accurate without seeing your pet. If you call for a dental and get told $150 that may be for only the dental, not labwork, antibiotics, iv catheter, etc. Your regular vet should be able to provide you with an itemized estimate. Don't ever feel bad about asking for an estimate. When my dogs have something big done, sure I'll do it no matter what, but I still don't want to be shocked when I check out (and warn hubby before I use his card LOL).[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

You should move to cali and start your own practice the one i am doing a loan for is buying a million dollar home 3 years out of vet school and she has no student loans and yes human doctors in family practice make about 120k a year that i have done loans for and some of the vets i have done loans for make 20-60k a MONTH so there it is out there exactly what i see and this may be our area alone but when i see animals dying due to high cost of vet care it saddens me and after paying over 20k in vet bills over the course of 3 years I am a little disappointed in the profession and why i appreciate people such as yourself and jmm and the online vets that run a private forum on yahoo who help pet owners on their own time - these are the ones i have grown to have the most respect for as you are truly passionate about what you do which i was beginning to not feel many do. I never thought getting a dog I would have to spend so much of my time and energy learning about this profession but when the vet bills started racking up FAST i said WHOA either i am going to need to learn alot about all this or i will be broke with pets with health issues as this is INSANE. Now had I not spent over 20k in vet bills maybe i would feel differently and had i had healthy dogs and no issues and did not know any better then maybe I would feel differently and maybe if my vet i spent a fortune with did not ask me WHAT IS MVD and i had to tell her what it is I would feel differently and the numerous of other errors such as giving my dog nsaids on an empty stomach that is on steroids and getting her sick for 6 mos i would feel differently --I never had this perception when i first had my dogs but it has been the errors and mistakes i paid for that made up my experiences and has tainted me with this profession. I know it is not an exact science but man it is really amazing what I have seen. Now maybe if i had a vet such as yourself i would be singing a different song and i always tell people they are so lucky when they find a good one. I will say this though I am very happy with the specialists i have dealt with just have lost respect for the vets i have dealt with 

It would be the same feeling if you came to me and I did a loan and i stuck you in a horrible neg am loan and I knew better but still did it anyway and you lost your home because your balance went up and you did not know what type of loan you had and you TRUSTED me as i was the professional and i let you down. You would not be real happy and just as many people are saying the banks did this and mortgage people are horrible greedy people etc as everyone seems to be singing these days. Based on your experiences you would have a hard time trusting another mortgage professional and not think real highly of them. Personally I have never sold a neg am loan ever in 18 years nor have i ever done subprime loans ever in 18 years but one bad apple ruins the bunch. Well this is kind of how i feel in the experience i have had as i am a very thorough person and when stuff does not add up like calling and finding out it cost 160 if a vet refers me to dentist and 50 if not and so on I am now going what is going on here. And i am on 64 dog groups and i seen owners daily that are in tears because they cannot afford vet care it saddens me because i love my dogs and would do anything for them and I know they do and i have been fortunate to make a great living and can afford it - BUT when i pay the kind of money i pay I do expect to be dealing with knowledgeable people who care about animals. 

I have to say I have learned more from yahoogroups, yorkietalk, here, vet groups and I do not know what i would have done without them as it would have been much more frustrating not having the support and education from everyone. I just helped a guy with his yorkie who went to dr tobias and he called me and said man i learned more from yorkietalk free forum and by talking to you than i did from the vet and specialist i just spent $2,000 to as they spent about 15 min explaining this stuff and i have no clue - now to me that is really sad so I am not the only person walking away feeling disappointed and spending alot of money 

I will say this I hope i never get sick is the one thing i learned from dealing with health issues as I am sure it is the same with humans as i do read that as well -- a friend said to me there is a reason they call it practicing medicine as they are practicing on you and me and now I am a complete advocate for do your homework and never let anyone intimidate you into something you are not comfortable with as to this day i am still mad i let the vet give dd metacam on an empty stomach with her on steroids as that one mistake a dog who has never had diarhea i now battle with since february as she has colitis flair ups and i knew tramadol was much safer and i know jmm and you said just as ims told me as well as orthopedic she should have NEVER been given that 

The one thing i have always remembered is one bad experience and people tell tons of people and one good experience they tell maybe 2 or 3 as that bad experience over shadows the good. 

I really wish i did not feel this way but it all started when dex was neutered and was screaming all night and at 7 am i ran to vet going what heck is going on -- oh well we did not give him pain meds ok so i as a pet owner am suppose to ask for pain meds for a dog that had 10 teeth removed and neutered so i said heck with this -- I can go on and on with what has happened since getting my dogs and did i ask for bad experiences NOPE i just wanted a sweet dog to love and care for and provide a great home to and thought i could trust the health professionals. Now i feel i have completed some vet courses which i never intended to do to make sure they get the right care and now I feel so bad for other pet owners i have a pt gig helping other dog owners with their pets which i had no clue i would ever be doing but after what i have seen i feel sorry for pet owners who have no clue like i did not and do not want them to learn the hard way like i had to and pay dearly for it. 

I think it is great that jmm and you know what liver shunt is as i went to 3 vets before a vet said we need to test dd liver as she is a yorkie so at 3 years old i am like what is liver shunt thus i have to go to the internet to learn all about liver shunt so they do not run a scintigrapy on my dog that has a post bile below 100 and send her for unnecessary testing which would have been done and when I say nope she is under 100 he says oh yeah it is probably just mvd anyway as i said hey she is not having any signs that i read on internet so i really do not want to put her through radioactive dye testing --Now why should i have to do this as an owner shouldn't the vet have known that ? 

Again this is a very heated and passionate topic for me and why you see me post mostly on these things to help owners and I hate feeling this way and I really do not like to offend you nor jmm but you have to know as a pet owner it is very frustrating when you cannot trust a vet -- Luckily in my area i am very thankful we do have awesome specialists. 

Also the same vet that makes 60k a month charged me a $42 phone consult bill for faxing blood work over to her from dr jean dodds now how would you feel? I never asked to be called just wanted her to have for her file the current blood work so when i opened my mail on a saturday after spending over 20k in vet bills and she knows i almost lost my dog to pancreatitis and spent a fortune - I broke down and cried and dh kept saying deb it is probably a mistake just call on monday so I calmed down and called on monday and the receptionist who i love and is awesome said let me check with her and she was embarrassed and apologized as see i never call her as i learn most on my own and never walk in on her and dd had seen her once that year so not like i bug her or anything - she held to the bill as that was her new policy and proceeded to charge me 18% on the bill yet she did not let any of her clients know her new policy so when this person walks into the bank and someone comes up to me and says wow she makes 60k a month and is doing the loan and had me review tax returns i wanted to throw up. Oh and on the call that she charged me for she asked me what mvd was and asked me to fax her dr dodds liver cleansing diet so actually i should have charged her 

Maybe this will help you understand why i am so negative and why i feel it is more about the money than the health of the dog at times. 


QUOTE (Dr.Jaimie @ Sep 28 2009, 08:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834882


> i dont know any human doctor that makes less than me. only the ones still in their residency. if they do make more where u r maybe thats where i need to go. i am on production..make a small percent of my services and a very small percent of certain meds...everything else i dont get any pay for that includes food...not a dime. i never recommend things that are unnecessary. if a vet were to do that they sure wouldnt last long. i take it one step at a time. there is no point running thousands of tests when the owners wont be able to treat their babies after the fact. i give lots away...u never see that in a human practice. if i tell my dr i cant afford it...tough. and owner tells me they cant afford it and its necessary then i find a way. we get nothing for referrals...we refer clients to places b/c we want them to have the best care and when they get the best they know it. we are one of the most expensive practices in the area but u get what u pay for. there r many that realize it and thats why they continue to come to us. i dont know why u have such negative opinions on vets.....growing up i always looked up to mine...and now im glad to be someone that others look up to.[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

that is great pam  thanks i will check it out -- yeah the blood work out here is nuts so i go to dr jean dodds make a trip once a year and for cbc, cpli, tli, titers, thyroid panel, fecal, and urine it was like $250 and two vets here wanted $1,000 for all those tests as I like to have pancreas checked and dd has to have her thyroid checked as she is hypothyroid and i titer test whenever blood is pulled. I make the drive to garden grove as worth it plus jean helps me alot by email and phone throughout the year. She is a wonderful person and knows blood work really well. Soloxine is really cheap and i recommend soloxine do not go generic. I think i get 100 pills from jean for like $16 or something way cheap. Did they do the 6 panel thyroid or just t4free to diagnose this? DD t4free was .30 and normal for a yorkie is 1.0 per jean and she had hairloss on her neck -- oh that was another disappointment as the vet told me no way she was hypothyroid and i said well she is losing all her hair on her neck and he said that is due to her allergies so rather than argue i went to jean dodds on the next blood draw for atopica use and sure enough I was right he said hypot is only on lumbar region and tail and i said well maybe she did not read the text book and he laughed - i figured it was hypothyroid as i get all dermatology vet text books and dermatology books written by dermatologist since dd has allergies and there was a chow that was hypot with no hair on his neck and chest so i said that looks like dd but he told me no we do not need to do thyroid panel -- well i came back with her results as she dropped from .78 to .30 in one year so had i not taking her to jean no telling it would have probably dropped further and she could have possibly had seizures as they can have seizures from low thyroid then he wanted me to dose 1/2 pill and jean emailed me saying NO WAY I TOLD YOU 1/3 of a .1mg pill and use a cuticle clipper at 11:00 on a saturday night she emailed me back so had i followed the vets advice dd could have went hyperthyroid. 



QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 28 2009, 06:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834809


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 28 2009, 09:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834695





> which one do you carry pam? and how much is it a year for the plan? As i checked out VPI extensively when dex was so sick and I believe 3 years ago it was $650 a year with cancer rider and i went over my bill thoroughly with the rep on the phone and he said they would have covered $500 of my 6k bill for dex so i figured i would have been worse off having the insurance for two years prior to him being sick as he was very healthy up until that point at two years old so i would have paid $1300 and then only covered for $500 as they set the limit on each disease and on pancreatitis it was $500 and he said he was not even sure they would cover it as they go by the akc and vet medical journal and if yorkies are predispositioned to it then it will not be covered at all and yorkies are so I was not impressed with this plan - Now i have a friend who has been using 24hourwatch.com pet plan and very pleased as she spent oh 50k plus in vet bills for her 6 dogs and that is in New Jersey - they said they will not cover pre-existing but she seems to be very happy with it
> 
> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 28 2009, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834691





> Well, I for one do carry Health Insurance for both of my dogs. I feel it is my responsiblity to them. I have been very happy with it to date. It pays about 80% after a $120.00/yr. deductible. It gives me peace of mind knowing that I can visit my vet anytime I need to, and not worry about how I will afford it. And like many heath plans, it also covers some preventative things.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

I have the premium AKC policy. It is about 800.00/year (each) including the deductible. It covers vaccines, meds visits etc. and even all of the Frontline etc, flea and heartworm meds. I think the top out is at $15,000. I did not break even on Frankie last year but more than made up with Lola when she hurt her back. We had an ER visit, X-rays, etc. etc. It covered 80% of all that. Oh, it paid for the dental too, even the pre-op blood work. I just like knowing that I have a backup plan. I never think twice about going in to check out even little stuff. And now it looks like Lola might be hypothyroid. Her blood panel alone was $280.00 If so, she will require daily meds, and they will be covered.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

sadly the ones i am referring to are private practice and it is their own business not a huge corporation 


QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 28 2009, 02:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834748


> QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 28 2009, 01:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834726





> Deb, you are looking at information for ONE economic zone. Are you looking at the actual practice's income or a vet's? Do you see their expenses from property tax to inventory to paying employees to landscaping, etc. etc. etc. Two VERY different things. Most larger practices are corporations and you would need to be looking at more than a vet's tax return. Yes, I have been privy to the financial information. Which is why you CANNOT compare the cost at UT to the cost of private practice in So Cal.[/B]


There are SO many expenses that have to be taken into consideration when running a business, it's true. Making a living is one thing, greed is another. Most honest individual vets are not greedy. It's the large corps who are taking over the smaller vet practices, preying on vulnerable people who love their pets, the pet food manufacturers, and the pharm companies that are the greeders. Unfortunately, they are very good at persuading caregivers to perform more tests than necessary, and to use their food/pharm products. I can't place much blame on the caregivers for this, often they haven't the time to do hours of their own research and sometimes have to rely on others to offer solutions to symptoms.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Debbie, you live in CALIFORNIA. A million dollar home in California would cost $300,000 in Dallas, TX. The cost of living in California is so much higher than most areas of the country..however, the minimum wage and salaries people make is also higher in California that in most areas of the country. So a vet living in California and buying a million dollar home is equivalent to a vet in Dallas, TX buying a $300,000 home. I have watched so many real estate shows on TV and am always amazed at the small houses in California that sell for close to a million dollars. You can buy a brand new, huge house in most areas of the US for half the price of an older, small house in California. It's also like this in New York City...one room crappy apartments are $1500 a month or more in New York City whereas here in College Station, TX where I live you can rent a really nice two bedroom apartment for $400 a month. 

When someone chooses to bring a pet into their family, they are responsible for that animal. A dog is a living being, just as a human is..they have similar anatomy and physiology so therefor they most likely will become sick at some point in their life and could be injured at some point in their life. That animal must be treated for their injury/illness just as you would treat a person. Fortunately we have similar technology to treat our pets these days. The standard of care for pets has really improved within the last couple of decades! You can't expect great quality of care for your pet and not expect to pay for it. PETS COST MONEY! If someone gets a pet and thinks that they will never have vet bills, then they are just ignorant. 

You can not blame a vet for the inability of their clients to pay. Most vets offer free or discounted services to rescue organizations and take in animals with health issues. Most vets give back to the animal community in their own ways. A vet can NOT be responsible for treating their clients' pets for free. That just makes no sense. People have to make money to live. Vets are professionals..they are DOCTORS..they deserve to make a decent living. Most vets are caring people and are not out to screw their clients or turn away sick animals. Are vets perfect? No, because they are human and human are not perfect..we all make mistakes. So I'm sorry if you had some bad experiences...sometimes it's hard to find that great vet that you feel comfortable with, just as it's hard to find a great doctor for yourself. But I don't think the veterinary profession deserves your negative attitude..and I think you are making a lot of general statements that aren't true. Most vets are good people that love animals and want to help them and their owners. But you cannot think badly of them for making an income and being able to afford a few nice things in life. 

Also, forums are great..obviously I usually enjoy them. I've learned a lot on forums and have seen a lot of people and pets helped through forums. But I've also seen a lot of WRONG information out there on forums too.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

The home is a 4,000 square foot home so not all homes here are tiny for a million dollars. 

The negative attitude came from the bad experiences sadly - naturally when you have bad experiences over and over you have a negative attitude no one comes to that conclusion without bad experiences. If i had great experiences I would be singing them praises just cannot yet but hopefully some day. But that being said cannot say enough nice things about the specialists here they are awesome and why i pay extra and go to them to get to the heart of the problem much faster 

No one is saying a vet needs to live in a van down by the river but it gets a little crazy out here - the one vet that jacked dd up on the metacam works 3 days a week and lives in a 2 million dollar home and just charged my friend 6500 last month for two dogs - one i think they did ekg for heart and blood work and other a dental - he charges $1200 for his tech to do a dental - it is cheaper for me to go to a dentist than to his tech lol although i do not trust him now that dd has been messed up since february - she has never had diarhea for 5 years gets metacam and now colitis with regular bouts of diarhea. I went to him as he has a digital xray so he proved to me just because you have state of the art equipment does not make you good as he should have never mixed nsaids with steroids in a dog with mvd -- i gave him her whole history handed him a copy of all her blood work in a nice clipped package and told him No way is she getting nsaid but i let my guard down because i tried once again to trust the EDUCATED professional and now dd not only has hypothyroid, mvd, allergies, lp but thanks to this guy she now has on going colitis when all i wanted was a digital xray on a cd to make sure she did not break her leg and to have on cd to take to ortho if it was something serious. 

It is to the point that i did not even trust them to do a skin culture for fear they might screw it up so i drove an hour to dermatologist to make sure the culture was done properly as dd had hives when she was on simplicef for 17 days yet everyone said no way could simplicef cause hives yet 3 human pharmacists said yep it sure can there are immediate reactions and there are reactions that build up over time by taking antibiotics so now i had her staph cultured and we are going to give clindamaycin a try since it is not in the simplicef family and it is suppose to kill this bacteria on her skin yet it is mostly used in dentals so hopefully no hives as it seems when she gets a med it spins out of control into something else - she is my challenge. 

I agree there is wrong information on the internet but i have been given wrong information from an educated professional nsaid mixed with steroids. If you read something over and over on the internet and then something is way out in left field usually that info is wrong. I know a ucdavis nutritionist that is constantly telling people to feed white potato to dogs with inflammatory bowel disease which is the worst thing you can do as white potato is an inflammatory food so yes even professionals give bad advice. I say do your homework talk to other pet owners dealing with the same disease day in and day out which is why the yahoo groups are so wonderful. I learned more from those people on liver shunt and mvd than any vet heck 3 vets i went to never mentioned it could be a concern with my yorkies and maltese. The one with a phd did though 



QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 29 2009, 12:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834960


> Debbie, you live in CALIFORNIA. A million dollar home in California would cost $300,000 in Dallas, TX. The cost of living in California is so much higher than most areas of the country..however, the minimum wage and salaries people make is also higher in California that in most areas of the country. So a vet living in California and buying a million dollar home is equivalent to a vet in Dallas, TX buying a $300,000 home. I have watched so many real estate shows on TV and am always amazed at the small houses in California that sell for close to a million dollars. You can buy a brand new, huge house in most areas of the US for half the price of an older, small house in California. It's also like this in New York City...one room crappy apartments are $1500 a month or more in New York City whereas here in College Station, TX where I live you can rent a really nice two bedroom apartment for $400 a month.
> 
> When someone chooses to bring a pet into their family, they are responsible for that animal. A dog is a living being, just as a human is..they have similar anatomy and physiology so therefor they most likely will become sick at some point in their life and could be injured at some point in their life. That animal must be treated for their injury/illness just as you would treat a person. Fortunately we have similar technology to treat our pets these days. The standard of care for pets has really improved within the last couple of decades! You can't expect great quality of care for your pet and not expect to pay for it. PETS COST MONEY! If someone gets a pet and thinks that they will never have vet bills, then they are just ignorant.
> 
> ...


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I've had bad experiences with veterinarians and I feel "burned" by the experiences. Even by so-called "holistic" veterinarians. Now I stay away except for the yearly checkups. I'm not out to trash veterinarians, because I've met some awesome ones. I'm not out to defend their lifestyles, either. There's a balance, and there are good and bad. Here's a couple of bad experiences:

It's really hard to say whether these vets I've seen over the last 18 months were incompetent or out to make money. 

I had a nasty doctor who insisted that I never saw Nikki get a rabies shot in her neck, that I had to be mistaken, because no reputable vet gives rabies shots in the neck. Crazy stuff, as the vet who gave Nikki the rabies shot in her neck right in front of me worked right down the hall and the vet could have just asked her instead of accusing me of lying. This same nasty doctor ordered tons of unnecessary tests and charged $40 every time she walked into the room and "rechecked" Nikki when Nikki had to stay there all day for a bile acid test. Same doctor ordered expensive meds, then the first (holistic) doctor said they weren't necessary. Later the holistic doctor orders more expensive unecessary meds after I told her I could get them cheaper somewhere else. (herbal) 

I left that Veterinary hospital, and went to a different place. This is what happened there: 

I used the services of two different *specialists* in the same well-known huge veterinary hospital in my area. The first doctor ordered tons of tests, referred me to more specialists, and wanted to do a regime of ridiculously expensive TCM (Traditional Chines Medicine) treatments, told me Nikki had spine trouble and had to see a chiropracter immediately. (To date, Nikki doesn't have spine trouble.) The second specialist in the same hospital contradicted the first doctor and told me that all those tests weren't necessary and sent me home, but I still had to pay him $200 for a "consultation fee" for a three minute visit for him to tell me she didn't need an ultrasound. 

I later learned that one of those tests that the first doctor prescribed would have cost me a bundle, but would have been totally ineffective not only because Nikki hadn't been prepped properly for it but that the test is outdated and hardly done anymore. When I asked whether Nikki should have a Protein C test, the first doctor's answer to my question proved that she did not know what the results of a protein C tests would indicate. 

Needless to say, I no longer take Nikki to this facility.


Now I go to a wonderful and kind Veterinarian I've known for 15 years, who listens, who never over-prescribes anything, who puts up with my alternative medicine stuff, and who gives a discount to people who have been going to him for years. 

There are good and bad in every profession.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Debbie girl!! You are just going to the wrong vet!! I can't imagine being charged that. You and I live in adjoining communities, but my vet is much more reasonable. Can't judge 'em all by the bad ones! And BTW y'all...we may have really small crappy overpriced houses in California....but we have perfect weather year round, the pacific ocean and......CALIFORNIA!!!! Wouldn't leave it for any size house in Texas!!!!!!!


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 29 2009, 09:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835251


> Debbie girl!! You are just going to the wrong vet!! I can't imagine being charged that. You and I live in adjoining communities, but my vet is much more reasonable. Can't judge 'em all by the bad ones! And BTW y'all...*we may have really small crappy houses in California*....but we have perfect weather year round, the pacific ocean and......CALIFORNIA!!!! Wouldn't leave it for any size house in Texas!!!!!!![/B]



LMFAO, Pam, that cracked me up ~ :HistericalSmiley:


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Sep 29 2009, 07:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835258


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 29 2009, 09:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835251





> Debbie girl!! You are just going to the wrong vet!! I can't imagine being charged that. You and I live in adjoining communities, but my vet is much more reasonable. Can't judge 'em all by the bad ones! And BTW y'all...*we may have really small crappy houses in California*....but we have perfect weather year round, the pacific ocean and......CALIFORNIA!!!! Wouldn't leave it for any size house in Texas!!!!!!![/B]



LMFAO, Pam, that cracked me up ~ :HistericalSmiley:
[/B][/QUOTE]
:smrofl: :smrofl: Hehehehe!!


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Pam been to 5 girlfriend over 5 years all the same have not tried yours out yet bc my dex gets car sick and you are 20-25 min from me and need someone closer as he vomits in the car which can easily put him into ibd or pancreatic attack so need a closer vet  You are lucky you have pretty healthy ones I have not been so lucky - Also one vet said dex was going to die had possible tumor in pancreas after charging me 3k so was not taking any chances and heard the er vet sucks in our area so i drove him to vmsg in ventura and luckily i did as they gave him a plasma transfusion and saved his life after vet jacked around and jacked me for 3k before i got him to a specialist - never heard of an ims before but now i have and now have one for myself because of dexter - Pancreatitis can be very expensive to treat and they can die from it - have any of yours had pancreatitis? He had to be hospitalized 3 times in a year 5 days each time in icu $300 a day it adds up plus $400 each time for ultrasound to ultrasound pancreas before i did my homework and realized that is a waste of money and spec cpli is best test -- Never say never my friend until your dog is sick like dexter was you do not know what you would do and each hospital stay was 2-3 k plus vet cost me 3k to start and could not get my dog better so luckily i called around and found the best facility in the county as i called every vet i could fast to find out the best ims in the county which is who i took him to and NEVER regretted as i think he would have died if i took him to that ER and left him with this vet. I do not mess around when it comes to my dogs health i get to the best and will pay top dollar and until i can find a vet i trust I will continue to do so. This vet fed my dog hill's i/d which caused him to relapse and when they get pancreatitis they are susceptible to bacteria infections after the fact due to the toxicity of the pancreas which causes other issues in the body as i am sure you are aware of being in the medical field and pancreatitis is very serious as you know 50% of dogs die from it. This cost me 10k over a year for him 3 hospitalizations with 24/7 care 

Vet #1 neutered my dex and he was in pain all night long as they did not give him pain meds when they neutered him and pulled ten teeth -- That did not sit well with me so I moved on --- oh and dex jaw is out of alignment and new vet asked did he ever have his jaw broke and i about had a heart attack so i learn that they can break dogs jaws in pulling teeth when they are tiny and dex was 3lbs so when he has his dental in nov with a bc dentist he will be xraying his jaw to see if this vet broke his jaw when he extracted 10 teeth and may be why he was in so much pain so dex tongue hangs out and jaw is shifted -- My hope is this did not happen and it was genetic due to him being a puppy mill pup but i will know in a few weeks when the vet does xray of that jaw but would not be surprised if this happened to him as have always heard of neuters being so easy yet dd spay was much less traumatic than dex neuter hmmm wonder why 

Vet #2 More holistic but still modern medicine - did not know what mvd was and could not help with my dd allergy issues and had no clue what atopica was so had to move on 

Vet #3 Was unable to get dex well and he spiraled down hill getting more sick and also prescribed 25mg of atopica for a 6lb dog that should have been on 10mg so had i not went to derm i would have had two vomitting dogs at home but went with my gut and went to dermatologist after she almost over dosed my dog on a vomitting drug yet proceeded to tell me it was ok yet when i called the mfg and went to derm both said that was WAY TOO HIGH OF A DOSE FOR MY DOG. Called several vets in area and they had no clue of atopica had to learn about it from a lady at a pet store so asked around and they had no clue yet it works wonders in many allergic dogs but of course had to figure it out on my own like so many other things 

Vet #4 Gave my dog nsaids with steroids now my dog intestines are jacked up with colitis so battling diarhea for 7 mos and wanted to rush in to acl surgery when ortho and other vets said wait two months 

Vet #5 when dd had colitis wanted to drug her up with 4 meds saying she had ulcer and thought that was a little excessive so went to ims as i trust her and paid more - also wanted dd to do scinitigraphy when post bile acid tests were below 100 and also would not test for hypothyroid when i asked when she had hairloss on her neck and chest and so I had to drive to jean dodds to have her thoroughly tested as did not want to fight with him and sure enough I was right she was .30 on T4free and yorkies should be 1.0 so again dodged a bullet from poor vet advice 

And this is only the half of it So once your dog has some health issues you never quite know what you are getting sadly and why i choose to educate myself as each time i have acted on my gut instinct i was right in do so and dodged bullets in saving my dogs life as dex would have died and dd could have had seizures from low thyroid as she dropped in half in one year NOW what would have happened in one more year ??? 

Yep your right been to 5 Vets and still disappointed but still have hopes - the problem is once you know more it is a double edge sword as I am not one to just follow blindly anymore but i did in the beginning until what happened to dexter then i was like what the heck is going on here this is out of control and i better start learning or my dogs are going to be dead or i am going to be broke 

so would you be a little disappointed after this and more in trying 5 different vets - now i know they are human and make mistakes but this is getting a little ridiculous 

Thank God Demi is healthy except the dental aspect and Dex has been healthy now for 3 years - Now Dee Dee she is a mess but God love her I have her in the best hands - Jean Dodds, Dermatologist, BC Dentist, Internal Medicine since she has hypothyroid, mvd, luxating patella , atopic dermatitis, and now intestinal issues thanks to metacam and steroid mix on empty stomach. The allergies are the worst part of it all as it is a constant battle. Now could i just say to heck with it go buy another yorkie from a good breeder hand her over to a rescue and wash my hands of it all as some do or be a responsible pet owner pay big time specialist bills and give her a good life because i love her dearly - it would be much cheaper and less frustrating to just put her down or hand her over to a rescue but I would never do it but sometimes i wonder if I would not have gotten her what would have happened to her and maybe she is the reason I spend ours helping other pet owners with their dogs with health issues from my experiences as i never thought i would be doing that as i work full time and come home and help others in my limited spare time because i feel sorry for pet owners with dogs with health issues after what i have been through. I would rescue in a heart beat but i cannot compromise dee dee having a poor immune system by bringing another pet in the home. I have to think of my 3 first now if they did not have health issues I would be doing rescue but instead i donate my time helping owners with dogs with health issues and donating money to rescues and items for auctions as I have become extremely passionate about this after the 5 years i have been through. Also am seriously considering taking a vet tech course as i have become so passionate about this profession and wanting to learn and help. I subscribe to every publication I can and have bought every animal dermatology book as well as that is the area I want to be the most educated on to help dee dee but it is a very complex area as there is no real cure sadly  



QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 29 2009, 10:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835251


> Debbie girl!! You are just going to the wrong vet!! I can't imagine being charged that. You and I live in adjoining communities, but my vet is much more reasonable. Can't judge 'em all by the bad ones! And BTW y'all...we may have really small crappy overpriced houses in California....but we have perfect weather year round, the pacific ocean and......CALIFORNIA!!!! Wouldn't leave it for any size house in Texas!!!!!!![/B]


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Well Deb, you have really been through it. But I will say this for you, your doggies are so lucky to have you!! I am impressed at the amount of knowledge you have amassed on your own. I can sense your frustration, and I hope you can find what you are looking for and I wish you good health for all your pups!


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

thanks so much  appreciate that as definitely frustrated  but life is a journey so looking it as this is one i am suppose to be on heck maybe it will get me to be more healthy lolllll 

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 30 2009, 01:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835311


> Well Deb, you have really been through it. But I will say this for you, your doggies are so lucky to have you!! I am impressed at the amount of knowledge you have amassed on your own. I can sense your frustration, and I hope you can find what you are looking for and I wish you good health for all your pups![/B]


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## DenaBear07 (Aug 7, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 10:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834519


> oh and also human doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance which vets do not have to pay for so i guess we should kick it up to 4 times what a human doctor makes[/B]



Vets dont have to have malpractice insurance, but many do. I'm sure it is much less expensive thanfor MDs though!


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## DenaBear07 (Aug 7, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 28 2009, 12:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834560


> I think you will be a great vet and have not doubt since i know you love your animals and will make a difference and yes you should be entitled to a good living and no one is knocking that and hopefully you will be compassionate for pet owners that are less fortunate in your practice.
> 
> Here is what i think is sad. A teacher has to get the most continuing education of any profession out there and gets paid the least of many college educated professions but they do it because they love children. Many times they kick in their own money to get supplies for their children - they have student loans as well so shouldn't they make alot more money since they are educating our children to go to college. What is the difference and i am talking about the ones that work year round. Vets get into it because they love pets and teachers teach because they love children. Vets complete their education but not forced to do continuing education like teachers are so why the justification to make so much more money.
> 
> ...





> thankyou joy. I'm a second year vet student at Texas A&M. It has taken a lot of very hard work to get where I currently am and I still have a long way to go. My education has also been costly so far. Do I want to make money one day? Heck yes I do. Don't most people want to make money whehln they go to work every day? However money was not at all my main motivation to become a vet. I could do plenty of other things and make more money. I have always loved animals. My pets are my babies and I know most people consider their pet a family member. I want to do my best to treat tge pets that willl come to me one day. There is plenty that frustrates me about most vets in general such as lack of understanding good nutrition and holistic treatments, etc, but what vets charge is not one of them. I've experienced high vet bills as well and it wasn't easy for me but do I think I was overcharged? No way. And it's my responsibility as a pet owner to be able to care for MY pet. I hope to be a great vet one day and help a lot of pets and their owners..I want to volunteer to do free spats and neuters and I want to foster rescue dogs one day..but I would also like to have a decent income as well and I don't think there is anything wrong with that considering the time and money and hard work I've put into becoming a vet
> 
> QUOTE (vjw @ Sep 27 2009, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834526





> We have both a large animal vet. and a small animal Vet. and I have utmost respect and appreciation for their knowledge and expertise. If you compare it to human medicine - they have similar training to a physician and they have to be trained in areas such as pharmacology, surgery, dentistry, radiology, pathology, parasitology, and emergency medicine. (I know I've probably left out a lot of areas) I oftentimes think how LITTLE they're paid compared to physicians. Also, our large animal Vet. is in a single practice and is pretty much "on call" all the time for equine emergencies.
> 
> 
> I looked online for a veterinary curriculum and I've posted a link to the first one I found.:
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## DenaBear07 (Aug 7, 2007)

QUOTE (lawgirl @ Sep 28 2009, 09:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834888


> QUOTE (DenaBear07 @ Sep 27 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834483





> Hi! In response to your post, I'd like to point out several things. I work at a vet hospital and would like to try and clarify why a neuter/spay is so expense. When you said that the procedure was nothing fancy, just "standard pre-anesthetic bloodwork"--just so you know, not every hospital will do that, and the aspca/humane society NEVER does that. Also, places that offer cheaper spays and neuters often skip the catheter, and many times only use gas to anesthetize your animal. A catheter is important chiefly to ensure that if there is an emergency and your dog needs immediate medicine intravenously, that a vein does not have to be searched for and can be given the appropriate medication immediately. At my vet, and most others (I hope), after the surgery the technician does not leave your animals side until it can fully breathe on its own and is awake so we can extubate. At the aspca, they ufortunately do not have enough time/technicians to do this. The animal is extubated quickly and left to recover on its own. We also monitor your dogs temperature very closely. I am writing none if this with hostile feelings, but with the hopes you can better understand your vet bills (I know, it IS a lot of money). Also, the costs for us aren't cheap--catheters, medicine, medical tape and vetwrap (that stuff is expensive) and the materials and time that go into properly cleaning and sterilizing the instruments. A vet I work with reminded me once of how expensive our bill to a human doctor to get a surgery done would cost without insurance....much more! Some people take the attitude of "it's only an animal." Yes, they're animals, but the surgical methods and supplies used are just as rigorous.
> 
> On another note, yes, the vets at the hospital I work at do receive commission in addition to their salary, but our doctors (can't speak for all of them out there) are honest and hard-working. Most of our vets that have been working for at least 15 years still have more than tens of thousands of dollars worth of student loans to pay. Anyways, I hope I helped you all understand!
> 
> ...


Thank you for your well-written and thoughtful post, Dena. I completely agree with you that when my private vet bills run higher than at the humane society's, I am paying for a relatively higher quality of pre- and post-op care and individualized attention to the dog, as well as for better equipment and possibly more experienced hands in the operating room. I can also greatly sympathize with the issue of vet's loans for those young doctors just starting out; I myself have incurred educational debt going through law school.

To clarify: The primary point of my post was to point out that _even controlling for wide geographic differences in cost of living_ (say, between a quiet midwest residential area versus a coastal metropolitan city), the veterinary health care industry as a whole is not nearly as regulated as the human health care industry--which leaves the ceiling wide open for how astronomically high vet bills can run when your pet contracts a disease or injury that requires immediate medical help (which can happen to any pet owner, even the most cautious and well-educated). Thus, even assuming the geographic variance in vet costs for comparable services rendered, *there is still no upward limit on the "mark-up" at the vet's office*--except, perhaps, sheer market competition. (E.g., I paid $14 for 5 tiny tablets of Metronidazole from the vet; they cost $0.08 per tablet online.) But in a city like New York, even market competition keeps prices fairly high; I would argue that with the influx of well-to-do dog owners in Manhattan, the market drives many of the cost of pet-related services even higher (including day care, dog walkers, grooming).

That is why, as a consumer and dog parent, I do choose to pay more for peace of mind and better quality of care at a pricey vet, but that is purely because I am much more risk-averse. I'm a walking example of behavioral economics. (I also tend to remain loyal to a vet who is kind and attentive, as mine is, regardless of cost.) Nevertheless, consumers who can tolerate a higher degree of psychological risk do quite well sending their beloved pets to Bideawee and other humane society-operated vets: the health outcomes are basically the same (many rescue dogs at ASPCA and other non-municipal shelters receive great veterinary care, and recent graduates of vet school often complete residencies at humane society shelters for the experience and autonomy of the work).

But wouldn't it be nice if the upper limit on vets' mark-up were more predictable or manageable in general for pet owners? I think this was Deb's point. As someone here has noted, the medical malpractice suits that drive up costs in the human health care industry are not applicable in the veterinary sector. Therefore some other reason motivates the wide disparity in cost, after controlling for geographic differences: namely, the profit margin. This is true for any business, the health care industry included.

Dena, I wish you the very best of luck as you continue your career at the hospital, and thank you for your helpful and well-considered post. I'm glad I had a chance to clarify my earlier thoughts on this.
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I completely agree with you! all the best!


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## DenaBear07 (Aug 7, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 28 2009, 10:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834926


> yeah i get estimates on everything unless obviously it is an emergency situation then not like you can check around
> 
> I thought you can only take them to small claims court as animals are considered property so the max is like $5k or or something as my neighbor went after the pet store that sold her a sick dog and that is all she got so i would think that is all you can do from a vet but i was aware you could file a complaint against their license though
> 
> ...





> Vets may not have malpractice like human doctors, but they can still be sued and brought up on charges with the state board of veterinary medicine. It is not without consequence if you chose to accuse a vet of malpractice. Don't ever feel like you should keep your mouth shut if a vet does something you deem inappropriate. My only advice is to get your complete record and have another vet review it before you place a complaint with the state vet. False accusations based on misinterpretation or outright spite can still have your vet and/or vet's staff called up by the board. I've seen it happen before where the owner was upset at the outcome, but nothing wrong was done. We love our pets and are emotional about them. Cool off and get a review of the record before you do anything.
> 
> NEVER hesitate to call your vet for an estimate for elective services. And don't hesitate to call your local emergency vet and find out what their exam fees are and what an average hospital stay over night runs (they'll only be able to ballpark you here). Remember when calling a new vet, it is difficult to estimate for surgeries and procedures without having seen your pet. You may get the response of we have to see your pet or this is a general cost but we can't be accurate without seeing your pet. If you call for a dental and get told $150 that may be for only the dental, not labwork, antibiotics, iv catheter, etc. Your regular vet should be able to provide you with an itemized estimate. Don't ever feel bad about asking for an estimate. When my dogs have something big done, sure I'll do it no matter what, but I still don't want to be shocked when I check out (and warn hubby before I use his card LOL).[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]


scary!!! i'm surprised the technician did not catch the mistake of prescribing nsaids and steriods!! sorry that happened to your friend's dog


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## DenaBear07 (Aug 7, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 28 2009, 11:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834947


> You should move to cali and start your own practice the one i am doing a loan for is buying a million dollar home 3 years out of vet school and she has no student loans and yes human doctors in family practice make about 120k a year that i have done loans for and some of the vets i have done loans for make 20-60k a MONTH so there it is out there exactly what i see and this may be our area alone but when i see animals dying due to high cost of vet care it saddens me and after paying over 20k in vet bills over the course of 3 years I am a little disappointed in the profession and why i appreciate people such as yourself and jmm and the online vets that run a private forum on yahoo who help pet owners on their own time - these are the ones i have grown to have the most respect for as you are truly passionate about what you do which i was beginning to not feel many do. I never thought getting a dog I would have to spend so much of my time and energy learning about this profession but when the vet bills started racking up FAST i said WHOA either i am going to need to learn alot about all this or i will be broke with pets with health issues as this is INSANE. Now had I not spent over 20k in vet bills maybe i would feel differently and had i had healthy dogs and no issues and did not know any better then maybe I would feel differently and maybe if my vet i spent a fortune with did not ask me WHAT IS MVD and i had to tell her what it is I would feel differently and the numerous of other errors such as giving my dog nsaids on an empty stomach that is on steroids and getting her sick for 6 mos i would feel differently --I never had this perception when i first had my dogs but it has been the errors and mistakes i paid for that made up my experiences and has tainted me with this profession. I know it is not an exact science but man it is really amazing what I have seen. Now maybe if i had a vet such as yourself i would be singing a different song and i always tell people they are so lucky when they find a good one. I will say this though I am very happy with the specialists i have dealt with just have lost respect for the vets i have dealt with
> 
> It would be the same feeling if you came to me and I did a loan and i stuck you in a horrible neg am loan and I knew better but still did it anyway and you lost your home because your balance went up and you did not know what type of loan you had and you TRUSTED me as i was the professional and i let you down. You would not be real happy and just as many people are saying the banks did this and mortgage people are horrible greedy people etc as everyone seems to be singing these days. Based on your experiences you would have a hard time trusting another mortgage professional and not think real highly of them. Personally I have never sold a neg am loan ever in 18 years nor have i ever done subprime loans ever in 18 years but one bad apple ruins the bunch. Well this is kind of how i feel in the experience i have had as i am a very thorough person and when stuff does not add up like calling and finding out it cost 160 if a vet refers me to dentist and 50 if not and so on I am now going what is going on here. And i am on 64 dog groups and i seen owners daily that are in tears because they cannot afford vet care it saddens me because i love my dogs and would do anything for them and I know they do and i have been fortunate to make a great living and can afford it - BUT when i pay the kind of money i pay I do expect to be dealing with knowledgeable people who care about animals.
> 
> ...





> i dont know any human doctor that makes less than me. only the ones still in their residency. if they do make more where u r maybe thats where i need to go. i am on production..make a small percent of my services and a very small percent of certain meds...everything else i dont get any pay for that includes food...not a dime. i never recommend things that are unnecessary. if a vet were to do that they sure wouldnt last long. i take it one step at a time. there is no point running thousands of tests when the owners wont be able to treat their babies after the fact. i give lots away...u never see that in a human practice. if i tell my dr i cant afford it...tough. and owner tells me they cant afford it and its necessary then i find a way. we get nothing for referrals...we refer clients to places b/c we want them to have the best care and when they get the best they know it. we are one of the most expensive practices in the area but u get what u pay for. there r many that realize it and thats why they continue to come to us. i dont know why u have such negative opinions on vets.....growing up i always looked up to mine...and now im glad to be someone that others look up to.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]


i CANNOT believe they charged you to fax bloodwork over to the other vet. that truly is disgusting...nowonder they make so much money.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

There are a lot of good vets out there, but the greedy ones really leave a bad impression. 

I have to say that I have learned more from SM members, esp Jackie and Jaimie, from other sites, and from books than I have learned from 3 different veterinarians over the last 18 months. 2 out of the 3 I'd never return to. The third one is a gem and although we don't agree on everything, he's tops in my book.


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