# making babies



## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

hi! i am a new breeder...just having fun. my mommy maltese had ceasarian section to deliver 4 beautiful, healthy little girls. i want to know if i should breed her again at her next heat? i've heard different things...some say wait 2 years to ensure healthy pups everytime...some say breed next heat to soften scar tissue to facilitate vaginal delivery next time. mommy needed c-section because first pup was the largest in the litter and became stuck in the birthing canal. mommy is 6 pounds and daddy is 3 pounds. my dam has been a wonderful mommy. i want more!


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Hi & Welcome!

I don't know much about breeding, but many of our members here have a lot of knowledge, so I'm sure you'll get some great advice!


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

can you please tell us more about the linage of your sire and dam?


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> hi! i am a new breeder...just having fun. my mommy maltese had ceasarian section to deliver 4 beautiful, healthy little girls. i want to know if i should breed her again at her next heat? i've heard different things...some say wait 2 years to ensure healthy pups everytime...some say breed next heat to soften scar tissue to facilitate vaginal delivery next time. mommy needed c-section because first pup was the largest in the litter and became stuck in the birthing canal. mommy is 6 pounds and daddy is 3 pounds. my dam has been a wonderful mommy. i want more![/B]



How old are the pups? Who is your mentor? Where did the parents come from?


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)




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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

First of all I want to say welcome to SM. 

About breeding your baby. Are you breeding your girl to better the breed or to have fun as you said. Breeding takes on a lot of responsibility and doing it just for fun is not a good thing. I have a page on my website that I am going to post here that will give you a little to think about. *Sorry everyone for the long post. *

*Know the Facts BEFORE Breeding Your Dog*
AFTER READING THIS. PLEASE SEE ANNIE'S PAGE
We think it is extremely important to learn the facts and possible consequences in advance if you are contemplating 
breeding your dog. In today's overcrowded world, we, the wardens of our domestic pets, must make responsible 
decisions for them and for ourselves. The following points should be reviewed carefully.

QUALITY: AKC registration is NOT an indication of quality. Most dogs, even purebred, should not be bred. Many 
dogs, though wonderful pets, have defects of structure, personality or health that should not be perpetuated. Breeding 
animals should be proven free of these defects BEFORE starting on a reproductive career. Breeding should only be 
done with the goal of IMPROVEMENT -- an honest attempt to create puppies better than their parents. Ignorance is 
not excuse -- once you have created a life you can't take it back, even if blind, crippled or a canine psychopath!

COST: Dog breeding is NOT a money making proposition, if done correctly. Heath care and shots, diagnosis of 
problems and proof of quality, extra food, facilities, stud fees, advertising, etc. Are all costly and must be paid 
BEFORE the pups can be sold. An unexpected Cesarean or emergency intensive care for a sick pup will make a break 
even litter become a big liability. And this is IF you can sell the pups.

SALES: First-time breeders have no reputation and no referrals to help the find buyers. Previous promises of "I want 
a dog just like your" evaporate. Consider the time and expense of caring for you pups that may not see until they are 
four months old, eight months old or more! What WOULD you do if your pups did not sell? Send them to the pound? 
Dump them in the country? Sell them cheap to a broker who may resell them to labs or other unsavory buyers? Veteran 
breeders with good reputations often don't consider a breeding unless they have cash deposit in advance for an 
average sized litter.

JOY OF BIRTH: If you're doing it for the children's education, remember the whelping may be at 3 a.m. or at the 
vet's on the surgery table. Even if the kiddies are present, they may get a chance to see the birth of a monster or a 
mummy,or watch the bitch scream and bite you as you attempt to deliver a pup that is half out and too large. Some 
females can have severe delivery problems or even die in whelp -- pups can be born dead or with gross deformities 
that require euthanasia. Of course there can be joy, but if you can't deal with the possibility of tragedy, don't start.

TIME: Veteran breeders of quality dogs state they spend well over 130 hours of labor raising an average litter. That 
is over two hours per day, everyday! The female CANNOT be left alone while whelping and only for short times the 
first few days after. Be prepared for days off work and sleepless nights. Even after delivery, mom needs care and 
feeding, puppies need daily checking, weighing and socialization. Later, grooming and training, and the whelping box 
needs lots of cleaning. More hours are spent doing paperwork, pedigrees and interviewing the buyers. If you have any 
abnormal conditions, such as sick puppies or a female who can't or won't care for her babes, count on double the time. If 
you can't provide the time, you will either have dead pups poor ones that are bad tempered, antisocial, dirty and/or 
sickly -- hardly a buyers' delight.

HUMANE RESPONSIBILITIES: It's midnight -- do you know where your puppies are? There are THREE AND A 
HALF MILLION unwanted dogs put to death in pounds in this country each year, with millions more dying homeless 
and unwanted through starvation, disease, automobiles, abuse, etc. Nearly a quarter of the victims of the unspeakable 
tragedy are purebred dogs "with papers." The breeder who creates a life is responsible for that life. Will you careful 
screen potential buyers? Or will you just say "yes" and not think about the puppy you held and loved now having a 
litter of mongrels every time she comes in heat, which fills the pounds with more statistics -- your grand-pups? Would 
you be prepared to take a grown puppy back if the owners cannot longer care for it? Or can you live with the thought 
that the baby you helped bring into the world will be destroyed at the pound?

Here is a link to Annie's story....................
http://www.maltesedogs.com/annie.htm


I am by no means trying to slam you. But breeding dogs just for fun is not something that breeders like myself take very lightly.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I'm afraid you are not going to like the responses you will get on here, so be warned! This is a topic that the members of this forum feel very strongly about, myself included. Please just know that it is meant to educate you on responsible breeding, it's not a personal attack. 

Not knowing anything about your or your dogs, my advise is going to have to be to not breed them anymore.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

:angry:  :w00t:


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Sorry, I think you can breed responsibly and still have fun, don't you think so ? If you are not getting ANY pleasure out of it why would you ever want to do it ? Again, here, don't jump too quickly to conclusions before you know all the facts. All breeders at some point were NEW breeders.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Sorry, I think you can breed responsibly and still have fun, don't you think so ? If you are not getting ANY pleasure out of it why would you ever want to do it ? Again, here, don't jump too quickly to conclusions before you know all the facts. All breeders at some point were NEW breeders.[/B]


Janie, I agree we all have to start somewhere. Maybe I did jump to the wrong conclusion but the thread hit me the wrong way. I have be wrong in the past and will be first to say I am sorry if I am wrong here.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=421995
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, we all have to start somewhere. Why not start by KNOWING what you're doing? 

The OP has already had one litter, asked for help, has not responded to questions asked, so how can we possibly answer his "should I breed her on the next cycle".

The answer is NO!! Have her spayed. You don't know what you're doing. 

You have not answered any questions, it would be irresponible of us to give you a "high-five".

Based on the information you have given, I assume you are a backyard breeder. And must say, we have enough of BYB pups at my house, rescues, and in the shelters.

Now, perhaps, you will come back and answer to your own thread.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

If the shoe fits.........


Backyard Breeders

Every breed of dog recognized by the AKC has a written standard, a blueprint 
of what the dog should look like and act like. These standards were written 
so that all would know what a quality example of the breed is and strive to 
produce dogs that meet or exceed the standard in health, temperament and 
appearance. To be sure you are breeding dogs that meet these standards, 
your dogs must be judged by people who have a lifetime of experience among the 
breed. Do you know the standard of the Pure Breed Dog? Does your dog 
meet this standard according to an AKC Judge? If not, your dog is pet 
quality. A pet is to be loved, cherished, trained, cared for, spoiled and 
bragged about, but it is NEVER to be bred. No matter how cute or sweet the 
dog may be, if it is not up to the standard, you have no business breeding 
it. 

If you have a purebred dog this does not give you the right to breed it. 

Most purebred dogs are not breeding quality. If you breed your pet quality 
dog, you are a backyard breeder, whether you breed the dog in your 
backyard, garage, living room or an expensive hotel room, the term is still backyard 
breeder. 

If your pet quality dog has AKC papers, that's nice but it doesn't change 
anything. You still don't have the right to breed it. 

If your pet quality dog cost you $500 be glad you had the money to afford 
it. You still have no right to breed it. 

Do you think you can make your $500 back if you breed your pet dog or if 
your pet dog is a color or size that isn't in the standard but you just know 
everyone will want buy a pup if you breed her? Shame on you! Now you are a backyard 
breeder with the purpose of breeding pups for bucks. 

Ware you going to do when your beloved pet needs an emergency C section. Will you 
even be there with her to know if she is in trouble? Would you recognize 
trouble before it's too late? 

Do you think genetic testing is something they used in the OJ trial but has 
nothing to do with your dog breeding career? You are a backyard breeder. 

Backyard breeders sell pups that aren't up to the standard of the breed. 
They do this for many reasons. None are good enough reasons to contribute 
to the killing of dogs. Period. 

Backyard breeders will swear all of their pups went to a good home. They 
believe this but it's not true. Some may have been lucky enough to go to a 
good home but more than half of them will end up dead, in a shelter, alone, 
on a cold table with a needle sticking out of their leg. Some of those good 
homes will get tired of the dog and they will just give it away to anyone 
who is willing to take it. Some of your beloved dog's children will end up 
living alone in a backyard, barking all night, cold and neglected until the 
owner gets complaints and then that pups will be dead. Some will be starved 
and beaten. Some will be bred until they die from it. Some will end up in 
rescue and I will have to find space for it in my home and I will have to 
show it that not all humans are bad. I will train it, and feed it the 
proper food so it can heal. I will take the fleas off of it and I will get rid of 
the worms. I will give it the shots it should have had but no one 
remembered to give it. I will do these things because the backyard breeder didn't do it 
and wouldn't take the dog back when it was 2 years old and full of problems. 

I will spay or neuter that pup before I find it a new home so that I will 
never have to rescue one of it's pups and so I can be sure it will never end 
up in the hands of another backyard breeder looking to make profit from 
puppies. 

Backyard breeders are not responsible pet owners. They think they love the 
dogs but it's not really true because they don't really want to be bothered 
with doing all that it takes to breed ethically. They love feeling 
important when they say "I breed "Pure Breed dogs"". But breeding pet dogs isn't 
something to be proud of. If a shame on our society. It's the reason for 
the killing that goes on in shelters. Why do you want to be part of that? 

Do you want to be respected? Spay or neuter you pet dog. There's really no 
other way. The kind of homes you want for your pet pups don't want to buy 
from you. They are looking for responsible, respected breeders who are 
doing something for the breed as a whole. Most of those who will come running to 
buy your pups are the kind of people I wouldn't give a dog I didn't like to. 
They are the ones who will turn your puppy into a shelter when the novelty 
wears off. That's a fact. 

Want to stop the problem of killing 1 Million dogs a month all over America? 

Spay or neuter your pet dog now and tell everyone you know to do the same 
and leave the breeding to the people who are doing something to better the 
breed.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> If the shoe fits.........
> 
> 
> Backyard Breeders
> ...


Kick yourself with it. Over and Over, again. 










a


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

<sigh>

we ran into a woman at petsmart the other day with her 2yr old, 4lb yorkie. who is due ANY MINUTE now with a litter of FOUR. can you EVEN imagine a 4lb dog carrying FOUR PUPPIES???? i bit my tongue, for the most part, and did wish her good luck because she'll need it. she answered with, "omg i KNOW. this is the first litter i've ever been a part of. i have no idea what i'm gonna do if it doesn't go smoothly! and i hope she doesn't start having her babies on my bed!" 

:smilie_tischkante: :smilie_tischkante: :smilie_tischkante: 

i understand that every breeder starts somewhere. every breeder has their first litter at some point. but to go into it like that??? or to go into it by asking their questions ONLINE? what does that say about the relationship they have with their vet? 

sorry. had to say it.


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## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

i was looking for advise, guess you folks are not really into that. it was suggested by another breeder that i come to this site...i didn't realize most of the responses would be so high and mighty. yes, i am having fun. but i am also being responsible. 

anyone have a constructive answer they would like to share?


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> i was looking for advise, guess you folks are not really into that. it was suggested by another breeder that i come to this site...i didn't realize most of the responses would be so high and mighty. yes, i am having fun. but i am also being responsible.
> 
> anyone have a constructive answer they would like to share?[/B]


Hi,
Maybe you can share who your mentor is and about the health of you babies? People here are very passionate about Maltese (I think all dogs in general too) so if you are just breeding two dogs together and not doing your homework and not doing health tests, you can bet your booty , you are going to hear it from people here, there are just to many problems with people breeding their pets and not knowing what they are doing, if it's truth your looking for then you came to the right place :biggrin: 
Thanks and good luck
ANDREA


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> i was looking for advise, guess you folks are not really into that. it was suggested by another breeder that i come to this site...i didn't realize most of the responses would be so high and mighty. yes, i am having fun. but i am also being responsible.
> 
> anyone have a constructive answer they would like to share?[/B]


I will answer your question with my opinion and it is only my opinion because I have been blessed not to ever have to have a girl c-sectioned. If she were my dog I would not breed her for at least 2 cycles. And then I would not breed her to the same male. The sire may have only been 3 lbs but something in the genetics made a baby so large that it got stuck. Genetics can come from 5 generations back. So just because the sire is 3 lbs does not mean that he will throw small babies. 

You say a breeder sent you here to this site to seek answers. I can not help but wander if this breeder knew the answers and responses you were going to get when you got here and was using this site to educate you as to why you do not breed just for fun. Don't get me wrong I love what I do. But I am doing it to better the breed, and there is a lot that goes along with it. Have you had your dogs genetically tested? Do you know the linage behind your dogs? Where did you purchase your dogs? If they came from a pet shop or BRB there is no telling what you are producing in the line of health issues and standard. Speaking of standard do you know the Maltese Standard and what it means? Who is your Mentor if you do not mind me asking? Mentors are worth their weight in gold if you have a good one who shows their dogs and is doing it to better the breed.

Like I said in my first post I am not trying to slam you. It is my job as a responsible breeder to educate. And that is what I am trying to do. If you do decide to continue breeding this girl please do your research. Good luck.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

One of our members, JMM, has a wonderful page on recommended health testing before breeding on her website.

http://www.jamimaltese.com/maltesehealth.htm

Making sure the dogs you are breeding are genetically healthy and will not pass on any hereditary disease to their offspring and heartbreak and big vet bills to their new owners is the most responsible thing you can do as a breeder.

As everyone has said, if you are a first time breeder you need a mentor, someone experienced enough to judge your Maltese to make sure they meet the Maltese standard for looks and personality and then guide you through the steps of becoming a responsible breeder.

If you don't breed responsibly, the "fun" can quickly become a nightmare, if not for you, for some unsuspecting person who buys one of your puppies.


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## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

> i was looking for advise, guess you folks are not really into that. it was suggested by another breeder that i come to this site...i didn't realize most of the responses would be so high and mighty. yes, i am having fun. but i am also being responsible.
> 
> anyone have a constructive answer they would like to share?[/B]


Get your girl spayed, start over, read up, go to a good show breeder who can help you with all sorts of advice, start to show, do some more research, and a few years down the line, then start to breed..

How old is your girl, how many heat cycles had she been through before breeding her? How old is the male? Where did you purchase the two?

Good luck!
Andrea


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

the advice given here is only meant to help you understand the gravity of your decision to breed your dogs. 
you may not think so now, but believe me.... when the time comes you'll think back to this site to this very thread and wish you had heeded the valuable input the members of this site have to offer. 

i got my first maltese, massimo, from a backyard breeder who loved her dogs and never even thought about breeding responsibly. you have to understand, without knowing the linage of your dogs and what type of ailments may lie in their history, you are inevitably breeding dogs that can produce heath issue time bombs.... like my little massimo.

search my posts and i'm sure you'll understand where i'm coming from. it's heartbreaking to know that other dogs may be stricken with health issues bred down by people who haven't researched the process and haven't selected sound dogs to pass positive traits down through. the unknown can cost a potential dog owner not only a pretty penny for medical costs but could cost them a lifetime of heartache as well. there are many ailments that may not be readily evident for years... medical issues such as a liver shunt (which could cost up to $5000 to repair), luxaiting patellas (which costs around $1500 to $2000 a knee to repair), or a disease such as epilepsy which massimo was unfortunate enough to acquire through poor breeding... which has already cost me more than you will ever know and requires daily medications and a life long commitment to sustain his quality of life. 

yes, we have given you the advice you may not want to hear, but it's only to save you from the distress some of us have had to endure.
we are not trying to cut you down or make you feel inferior.... we're just trying to save you from the consequences you may encounter.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=421998
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, every breeder has to start somewhere. I do plan on breeding on a _very _ small scale and I am trying to learn as much as I can before I am responsible for the lives of puppies and the mom. Luckily I do have an experienced mentor that can help me though any difficulites that could arise, and I also have a good relationship with my vet. He actually wants one of caddy's puppies so he wants to see things go smoothly as much as I do! 

Here are some links that I have come across that have really helped educate me on breeding and whelping. 

http://www.quinncarlin.ca/BreederResources.php
Here is a list of supplies that should be on hand while whelping (and not just having them, but knowing what to do with them)
http://www.whelpwise.com/testing/whelping-supply-list.html

Some of these supplies are specific to the products available on the website, but it's still a helpful list for the whelping supply basics. I am fortunate that my husband is a physician so a lot of these supplies are easy for me to obtain.

Here is a good article on what should be considered before breeding, etc. There is a lot of information on these pages!
http://faqs.cs.uu.nl/na-dir/dogs-faq/medic...o/whelping.html

And a site that I was refered to that has soooo much info is a canine-reproduction group on Yahoo. Talk about helpful! It was shared with me and now I'm giving you the link. The people on this list know what they are doing, let me tell you! 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineRepro-PuppyCare/

Just as I think there is a wrong way to breed responsbily and a right way, there is also a right way to go about whelping. The 'cross your fingers and hope for the best' approach definitely is NOT a good way to do it! 

thank you for making sure your bitch is big enough to safely be bred, that's a positive right there! How old are your puppies now? I hope you will be keeping them until they are at least twelve weeks old 
Good luck to you and please take this info as it was intended, to help you make the right decision for your dogs.


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

this forum has thousands and thousands of topics. as a friendly suggestion, why don't you go thru the health and breeding sections (there is one called "puppy mill/brokers/home breeders" even) just to read some different topics and responses? you may/will find many, many threads already on this topic. if you need specifics, i will be more than happy to find them myself and list them for you  okay, maybe when i get back from vacation, i'm leaving in about an hour, but i'll still be more than happy to provide you links to threads that are of this very topic 

good luck and hopefully your mentor will introduce themselves too


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## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

now to explain myself...this may be a ramble, but here we go.
1. i am not real good at this chat room stuff...i don't stay on line all day, i have checked in, occasionally, to see if there is anything i can use from your postings.
2. my vet has said my baby is a wonderful dog to breed. she was purchased with this in mind.
3. my male is a great pup, but has not so tight knees and is large by today's standards, but within the healthy range of 100 years ago, before breeders started breeding runt to runt to shrink the breed. i neutered him when i found his knees were not so good. otherwise he is very sweet, and very healthy.
4. my vet introduced me to the breeder who was the stud for my mommy. the breeder is VERY well known in the breeding and show circuit. i do not feel i can share the name because of the initial attack i feel i received when asking for other advice. the stud is a national and international champion:brownbag: 
5. the boutique where i purchase my pet food is mainly a natural, raw diet provider. her bagged dog food is solid gold, innova evo, evanger's, etc....my babies eat all three of the "prepared foods". raw is just not something i feel confident in maintaining the proper balance. the owner/operator of this boutique is very knowledgeable about all breeds, diet, etc. she is a biologist. she has worked with animals for quite some time. she attends seminars regularly. 
6. i am a stay at home, so my babies get plenty of attention, probably too much, if that is possible.
7. most of the advice i have received so far has been from the vet, breeder and the biologist. not to mention the books and on line articles i have read on the breed and breeding.
8. the breeder was with me during my first whelping...she was and is wonderful!
9. i and 2 of my sisters have or have had 6 maltese...we love the breed... :wub: 
10. i feel the only stupid question is the one never asked. i asked for advice to determine the general concensus on breeding after c-section. i have already heard from my vet, my breeder and my biologist/diet guru. i'm simply trying to broaden my range of knowledge from those who are supposed to know.
11. i want to get past being on the defensive...i am not a puppy mill...my babies are being raised in my living room...they are part of my life...i enjoy fun in my life...i want nothing but fun in my babies lives. i'm trying to do it right.


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## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

i forgot #12. i don't intend to show and i don't feel i have to show to be a good breeder. it is not about the show...it is about the happy babies!


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

There are so many questions that go with the responses. First, let me start by telling you that I was the top Lhasa Apso breeder (number of show champions and the #1 Lhasa in America) for a number of years. So I do know what I'm talking about, and yes, my first litter wasn't planned the way it should have been, but I learned from there and went on to, in my opnion, truly help better the breed, both physically and temperment.

Breeding can be fun -- a lot of fun, IF everything goes right. But a lot of times, no matter how well everything is planned, it doesn't go right. The bitch needs a c-section, can't produce milk, puppies must be bottle feed and/or tube fed around the clock. I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

In addition, the FUN party of breeding, is truly the joy in knowing that you have BETTERED the breed. When you produce a puppy that you believe to be as close to the standard as one could possibly get -- that is FUN.

Now I have a couple of more questions for you. Where are the puppies that you're producing going? Are you selling them? Are you keeping them? Are you giving them to family members? 

And, if the owner of your bitch's sire is your mentor, what advice is she providing you on whether or not to breed your bitch again?

Although I really don't want to encourage you to breed at all, I would definitely say NOT to breed this bitch again on her next heat cycle -- and, personally, I would not breed this bitch again at all. C-sections are much harder on the bitches body than just a regular whelping. Not only does she have to care for the puppies, but she has to physically recover from the C-Section. I seldom bred a bitch back-to-back on heat cycles (even though they didn't have a c-section) because of how long it takes for the bitch to regain her own health and nutrients. I did have one girl that only came into heat every 12-14 months and that was sufficient time for her to recover. I personally do not like c-sections and perfer not to breed bitches that I know must have them -- or have a history of having them.

You sound like a young, backyard breeder that believes that having puppies around is FUN -- but does not really consider the consequences of producing. If you want to learn to produce quality Maltese that will better the bred and adhere to the standard and to the AMA rules of ethics, I'm certain that many of the SM members would welcome the opporutnity to mentor and to help you, but as long as you're just breeding for FUN -- I doubt that you will fine anyone here that is going to support your efforts.

Sorry to be so blunt, but breeding is too important to be casual about.


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## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

Have you seen AKA Small FRY? She is a BYB puppy, because it was fun! 
Lets go down the list, 
one day she will need both front legs broke and reset because they are severly deformed, 
She will need total knee replacments in both legs,
extencive dental work to reform her jaw, 
the things you cant fix, she weighs mearly 3lbs,
she can not eat anything with meat in it or she throws up.
She has had several diseases ranging from moderate to severe, 
I have put in over $4300 in vet bills and she is only one! 
The stunning truth of the matter, this pup of mine will probbably accumilate (sp?) $10,000 in vet bills throught out her life if not more. 
The breeder? 
She could care less, its her sires she cares about, not the new owner of the pup, or the pup its self. Sure she cared till she sold it, who dosent love the little rooly polling palyimg tug of war with your shoe lace?
Are you prepared to pay my vet bills when I purchase one of your pups, and the pup needs heart surgery because of a murmer? Will you pay for her knee replacment? I would hold you 100 percent accountable if you sold me a pup that had these issues. Below is Small fry...TAKE A GOOD LOOK!!!!!!!!! 

[attachment=25717icture_088.jpg]


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## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

> now to explain myself...this may be a ramble, but here we go.
> 1. i am not real good at this chat room stuff...i don't stay on line all day, i have checked in, occasionally, to see if there is anything i can use from your postings.
> 2. my vet has said my baby is a wonderful dog to breed. she was purchased with this in mind.
> 3. my male is a great pup, but has not so tight knees and is large by today's standards, but within the healthy range of 100 years ago, before breeders started breeding runt to runt to shrink the breed. i neutered him when i found his knees were not so good. otherwise he is very sweet, and very healthy.
> ...


A show breeder bred to your dog? an international and national champion :huh: ? Then why not share the breeder? I highly doubt a reputable show breeder would allow someone who knows nothing about breeding to use their champion male! Is this the same breeder who instead of giving you advice, sent you here for advice? Sounds a little fishy though. Show breeders are very protective of who gets their lines. It's hard enough to purchase a show pup let alone breed to a champion male. 

Please keep a good watch on these pups and hold them until 12 weeks of age. May I make a suggestion here? Get a blood panel done before allowing the pups to go their new homes to make sure their liver and kidneys are functioning properly. 

I wish you well.
Andrea


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> i forgot #12. i don't intend to show and i don't feel i have to show to be a good breeder. it is not about the show...*it is about the happy babies*![/B]


Oh gosh.... :shocked: 

Nope ... it is about the healthy babies!


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## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

> now to explain myself...this may be a ramble, but here we go.
> 1. i am not real good at this chat room stuff...i don't stay on line all day, i have checked in, occasionally, to see if there is anything i can use from your postings.
> 2. my vet has said my baby is a wonderful dog to breed. she was purchased with this in mind.
> 3. my male is a great pup, but has not so tight knees and is large by today's standards, but within the healthy range of 100 years ago, before breeders started breeding runt to runt to shrink the breed. i neutered him when i found his knees were not so good. otherwise he is very sweet, and very healthy.
> ...


I have ta agree with Princess here...um what book did you copy this out of? You've done alot of research and it looks as though to make your position better you went and copied straight out of a book somwhere, JMO. If you need more pics, of Pups from BYB just look around on here...what you don't know five years from now is looking you dead in the face, several members on here, unknowingly, or by rescue own these puppymill, byb dogs, and their stories are each heart breaking and humble. These are the ones that tell the real story. So many lay in shelters...rescues, cages, alone....Are you keeping in contact with the new owners of your past litter? Again I ask will you be willing to pick up the tab say one of the pups you sell have liver problems? Even if the bill goes over $5000? These are the things you need to think about, the health of your puppies, not the enjoyment it gives you...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I have read many articles about the dangers of buying a puppy from a backyard breeder and I still think one of the best things I have read on the subject is Carrie's heartfelt post about her Massimo. It illustrates perfectly why well cared for happy puppies aren't nearly enough:

ok.... everybody's heard my *boohoo* sob story a million times....

massimo came from a backyard breeder. she seemed knowledgeable of the breed and the standard.
she was very kind and LOVED her dogs. she took very good care of them. when i visited her house, there was a nursery room (which was decorated just as you would expect a human nursery to be) off of the living room that used to be a sitting area. it had a playpen in it where the dogs/puppies were kept off the ground when they were itty bitty and then there was an exercise pen for them when they got a bit older. she had shelves of baby blankets, baskets of toys, packages of puppy pads and many cute beds. 

but she had no idea what the heck she was doing when it came to breeding.

she had no idea that petshop dogs were puppymill dogs and what type of situation they lived in, nor did she know that puppymill dogs were bred only to produce puppies for money with no attention or care paid to the genetics of the dogs.

she bred her dogs because she loved them. 

BUT- many of her puppies ended up substandard and some with health issues..... 
massimo has some health issues. *all of which developed after he was a year old* 
he has epilepsy, early genetic periodontal disease and now has a slipping patella which will eventually need surgery. that's most likely caused from the stress of his seizures.

now.... the breeder who bred massimo... she's sorry. she's sorry that massimo's sick.... what can she do about it? she doesn't have the money to pay for massimo's vet care... the only thing she felt obligated to do was to offer me another puppy to REPLACE massimo. HA! NO FRIGGEN WAY! REPLACE massimo?? 
she said "i'll try my best to find him a proper home." i'm sorry....but he ain't goin' no where. i am going to do what ever's necessary to keep massimo comfortable, he is irreplaceable. he will get the best i can provide.
she did however fix her dogs after the second litter which also had some health issues.

that doesn't change the fact that i have to deal with his health issues....especially having to witness the seizures. it doesn't change the fact that i cry and feel so much heartache for the suffering he has to endure. but i take him in for blood test, i make sure he has the medication he needs and more than enough love to smother him in. 

dogs should be bred by people who know what they are doing, who know their lines and genetics. 
people who breed their dogs should be responsible for what they produce.
because in some cases, they can produce a lifetime of heartache and suffering, not to mention vet bills.

Thank you, again, Carrie, for articulating so well the heartache that backyard breeders can pass on to unsuspecting people.


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## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

dear suzy's mom;

thank you so much for a truly helpful answer. no my stud breeder did not send me to this site. i called another breeder i found on line to get a second opinion (actually fourth)...rather than give me her opinion she recommended me to this site. i have consulted my vet, my stud breeder, and a biologist (by education and former profession) on this issue. i want to make the right decision. i do plan to have another cbc to ensure my dam is healthy before studding again. 

yes, i do plan to maintain contact with my first sold puppies new parents. i am very interested in her progress. perhaps i will wait a while for my next litter...if only to verify the line continues in good health. my dam is three years old, the stud is 6 years old...neither have health issues. both are up to standard as far as akc goes. as i said before, dad is a show dog. by the way my breeder/mentor wants one of my pups! the breeder is even paying for her, since i paid for my stud.

also, i will not go on line to sell my pups...i prefer they go to local families...i can see where they will be raised and will understand more about their new homes and families.


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## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

dear lil boo boo;

no, i did not copy my ramble out of some book. perhaps, yours was a left-handed compliment because you seemed to have found something intelligent about it!

thank you, maybe!

again, i am not looking to get slammed! i am looking for practical advice from real people not books! although books are good, i like to go to the source. god knows, you people are not cold, impersonal pages :smtease:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> dear suzy's mom;
> 
> thank you so much for a truly helpful answer. no my stud breeder did not send me to this site. i called another breeder i found on line to get a second opinion (actually fourth)...rather than give me her opinion she recommended me to this site. i have consulted my vet, my stud breeder, and a biologist (by education and former profession) on this issue. i want to make the right decision. i do plan to have another cbc to ensure my dam is healthy before studding again.
> 
> ...


Most of the members here are not breeders, they are pet owners, so this may not have been the best place for you to come to get the information you are looking for. One thing that we all share in common though is our love for the maltese, and please do not take offense at some of the responses you have gotten, just know that it stems from that love. 

I've been a member of this forum for a while now and I'm not even comfortable sharing that I have bred one of my girls, even though I'm trying to do it the right way by showing and learning as much as I can, and my goal is not to have 'fun' or for profit, I am trying to breed my own dogs for the ring - otherwise I wouldn't be breeding at all. 

It sounds like you are being careful and that's always good to hear! feel free to PM me if you have any questions or anything.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> dear suzy's mom;
> 
> thank you so much for a truly helpful answer. no my stud breeder did not send me to this site. i called another breeder i found on line to get a second opinion (actually fourth)...rather than give me her opinion she recommended me to this site. i have consulted my vet, my stud breeder, and a biologist (by education and former profession) on this issue. i want to make the right decision. i do plan to have another cbc to ensure my dam is healthy before studding again.
> 
> ...


Please realize that when we urge you to test the dogs you breed, we are not referring to just a CBC. A good breeder is aware of inherited problems in her breed and will do genetic testing to screen for them before breeding. I'm sure you are aware of the liver shunts and luxating patellas Maltese can inherit, for example. 

What testing have you done on your dam to insure she will not pass these conditions on to her offspring? 

The American Maltese Association sets forth standards for its members to follow which include genetic screening. Are you aware of the AMA Code of Ethics and do you follow it?


1. As a member of the American Maltese Association, I will breed to the ideals of the Maltese standard and will act in accordance to the objectives and purposes of the AMA. I will abide by and uphold the principles of the Club's Constitution and this code of Ethics.

2. I will keep alert for and endeavor to control or eradicate inherited problems that are particular to my breed. I will strive to screen my breeding stock for hereditary problems.

3. If any of my Maltese need to be euthanized, it will be done in a most humane manner by a veterinarian. It will not be done at a dog pound, humane society, or experimental lab, nor will they be left alive at any of these places.

4. I will provide adequate diet and exercise, and veterinary care and supervision during gestation, whelping and lactation.

5. I will not knowingly deal with dog wholesalers, retailers, or unethical dog breeders, not supply dogs for raffles, "give away" prizes, or other such projects.

6. I will keep accurate breeding and stud records as required by AKC.

7. My puppies will receive quality health care and nutrition. They will be handled regularly, properly socialized, and accustomed to human contact.

8. I will not sell a puppy before it has been given a veterinarian health examination and has received at least one inoculation against distemper, hepatitis and parvo. A puppy will remain in my possession until at least 12 weeks of age.

9. I will provide pet buyers with written details on feeding, general care and nutrition and a health record with data on veterinary attention.

10. I will provide limited registration on puppies sold as pets or have signed spay-neuter agreements.

11. I will not speak with dishonor of another member or seek to impair the reputation of another breeder, this includes all types of electronic messages. I will be courteous and helpful to people who contact me regarding dog information.

12. While staying in a hotel/motel during specialty shows and all-breed shows, I will obey the rules, regulations and policies pertaining to dogs. Upon proof of violations, I assume the risk of suspension from the AMA with a letter of grievance filed with the AKC recommending disciplinary action.

13. I understand that failure to comply with this Code of Ethics will subject me to possible suspension or expulsion from the AMA.

Also, the AKC does not set the Maltese standard, the American Maltese Association does. The AKC is just a breed registry. You can find the breed standard here:

http://www.americanmaltese.org/ama_akc_breed_standard.htm

It would seem you have quite a bit to learn before breeding Maltese.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> dear suzy's mom;
> 
> thank you so much for a truly helpful answer. no my stud breeder did not send me to this site. i called another breeder i found on line to get a second opinion (actually fourth)...rather than give me her opinion she recommended me to this site. i have consulted my vet, my stud breeder, and a biologist (by education and former profession) on this issue. i want to make the right decision. i do plan to have another cbc to ensure my dam is healthy before studding again.
> 
> ...


As Lucy's Mom mentioned this is not the site that you really need to be on for the answers to the questions of breeding. I have been on this site myself for a while and we all have one thing in common our undivided love for Maltese. Lucy's mom recommended a site that I frequent every day. And I have found that besides my mentor it is a very valuable place to get wonderful information. I do not understand why you said that you will not show your dogs. In showing we are establishing that our breeding dogs are standard to the breed and it is something very important as a responsible breeder to do. Is this your very first litter? If so it is, I commend you for seeking the answers and in-courage you to do a lot more research before ever breeding your girl again. We are responsible for every life we bring into this world and what if you create a dog of poor health? Would you be able to live with yourself. God knows I would not. To know that I created a dog that suffers and a family that is suffering with it is something that I pray will never happen. And to be sure of it not happening you have to know your dogs and the linage behind them. Say if the great grand sire had a liver shunt did you know that it could turn up in one of your babies. That is why everyone is encouraging you to not breed your girl anymore. When you started this thread I have to be honest it gave me a sick feeling because of the wording you used. The word "FUN" is not taken lightly by myself and most of these wonderful people on this website. Yes breeding can have it pleasures but it also has a whole lot of heartaches. I was told in the very beginning that it is not for the week hearted. And have found it out when I had my first puppy that I could not save that died in the birthing process, that I tried to get breathing for 45 minutes with nothing working. Or when I have had a 2 week old go down and be dead within 2 hours of me leaving my home. OK I have went on long enough here. I am re-posting the link to the Canine Reproduction/Puppy Care site that Lucy's Mom mentioned earlier in this thread........
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineRepro-PuppyCare/

Good luck to you.


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

To the OP. This response is just my opinion and based on the wording of your original post you knew this would get some hair raised on this forum. You say that you are forcing your dog to have puppies because it is fun for you and it is all about happy puppies. Does your dog think it is fun? Did your dog tell you that she enjoys having to be woken up just when she falls asleep to a puppy who feels the need to have a late night snack? Did your dog tell you that she loved giving birth to 4 babies or how she wasn't scared when the first puppy got stuck in the birth canal? Did your dog tell you that she felt no pain after her c-section even when she was nursing puppies? I say your dog because after reading all your posts, that is the feeling I get from you. That your dog is just that.... just your dog. 

I would like to share a story about irresponsible breeding. The really bad part is that it happened to my precious Katie. The breeding was not intentional, it was an accident. Katie was the only female furkid in the house at the time and our Shelby (large dog) was neutered so I put off having her spayed for my own selfish fear of putting her under. I kick myself every time I think of how wrong and selfish I was for not having her spayed right away. Anyways, I had a neighbor who had a little male Maltese who brought him over to play on occasion. I had no idea Katie was in heat at the time. No spotting on anything and no noticable swelling. Trust me, I looked because she was 1.5 years old at the time and still not had a heat cycle... or so I thought. So Jack was dropped off for a play visit and I went to get a load of laundry from the basement and when I returned they were locked. I was horrified. Jack was a petshop puppy. I called my vet immediately and she said we could always abort the puppies. OMG!!! No way could I choose to end the life of helpless little puppies. My hubby and I decided to let nature take it's course, afterall, Katie is only 6 lbs and Jack a mere 5 lbs on a good day. Both within breed standards. BIG mistake. Katie went in for weekly check ups beginning at 5 weeks. Everything was looking good. Fast forward to Easter Sunday. It was 10:12 am and my daughhter started screaming Katie is having her puppies. I run in the room and there is a breach puppy STUCK. I called my vet and she attempted to get me calmed down enough to try to get the puppy out. Well I calmed down but that puppy was really really stuck. She told me to get to her office ASAP. The office was 35 miles away and I made it there in record time. The female puppy was pulled out and was dead. Dead because I chose to let nature take it course. The second puppy started to come and it just plopped right out and Katie took right to biting the sack and cleaning that puppy off. The female puppy cried and so did I. The contractions seemed to have stopped so the vet took her and did an ultrasound. She saw 2 more puppies so she gave her some Potossin to start the contractions again. The next 2 puppies (males and female) were just like the fist one. They got stuck in the birth canal and were dead (again, my fault.) I was heartbroken. I felt so helpless. The 3 that didn't make it were large. The surviving pup was half their size. When we got home Katie and I were exhausted. I could tell she was relieved that it was over. The next 2 days went well, or so I thought. Per my vets instruction, I was weighing the surviving puppy 3 times a day. By the second weighing on the second day I noticed the puppy had lost weight. I called my vet and away we went for another vet visit. To my horror, Katie wasn't producing enough milk to sustain the lone pup. The vet showed me how to bottle feed the pup and home we went. I was getting to be a pro at feeding and since I don't sleep much anyway the every 2 hours around the clock was no big deal to me. The pup was growing like a little weed and she was soooo cute. My hubbies family was fighting over her but we decided we were keeping her forever. Forever turned out to be 10 days. 10 very long but short days. At 7 days old she had a vet visit and everything was good. Her heart/lungs sounded good. Her weight was fantastic and she looked picture perfect. I have never learned so much in 10 days as I did then. Katie's baby died at age 10 days from a class 5 heart murmur. Nothing could have saved her. She died in my hands. Katie knew immediately that something was wrong and started to scream. When we got home she ran through the house looking for her baby and screaming. She would ram her head under the sofa looking. The sound she was making was horrifying. I never imagined a dog could make that sound. We ended up having her put on mild tranquilizers for a few days to prevent her from hurting herself. Within 6 months of that time, Katie developed epilepsy. I adopted Katie when she was 6 months old. All I know is that her original family moved from CA. Even though both Katie and Jack were within breed standards for weight and size, somewhere in their lines were larger Maltese. I learned a very hard and sad lesson... and none of this was intentional. I never intended on breeding my little princess. The only good thing that came out of this whole thing was the knowlege I aquired and that in the fall of that year Jack came to live with us permanently. This all took place 15 and a half years ago and is still very fresh in my memory.

It is my opinion, that only those who are trying to improve each specific breed, to make them stronger, healthier and to conform to the breed standards, should be breeding. The only way to know if your puppies conform to breed standards is to either show to championship those puppies or to have them evaluated by a show breeder who has years of showing/breeding knowledge. Breeding is not to be done for FUN. If you want puppies because it is FUN then volunteer your free time to a local animal shelter and play with all the puppies. I am sure they would be thrilled to have some FUN in their short lives. 

To the OP. Again, this is just my opinion. I understand that you were only looking for answers to your question as to should you breed her again right away or wait a cycle. Absolutely DO NOT breed her again, EVER. She is 3 years old now and most responsible breeders retire their females at 3 or 4 years old. You have my curiosity as to what breeder with a national/international champion would stud out to a female who is not genetically tested and would offer to pay for a puppy because you paid the stud fee, which is usually quite large, instead of requesting pick of the litter. And why keep the breeder of the stud a secret?


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> To the OP. This response is just my opinion and based on the wording of your original post you knew this would get some hair raised on this forum. You say that you are forcing your dog to have puppies because it is fun for you and it is all about happy puppies. Does your dog think it is fun? Did your dog tell you that she enjoys having to be woken up just when she falls asleep to a puppy who feels the need to have a late night snack? Did your dog tell you that she loved giving birth to 4 babies or how she wasn't scared when the first puppy got stuck in the birth canal? Did your dog tell you that she felt no pain after her c-section even when she was nursing puppies? I say your dog because after reading all your posts, that is the feeling I get from you. That your dog is just that.... just your dog.
> 
> I would like to share a story about irresponsible breeding. The really bad part is that it happened to my precious Katie. The breeding was not intentional, it was an accident. Katie was the only female furkid in the house at the time and our Shelby (large dog) was neutered so I put off having her spayed for my own selfish fear of putting her under. I kick myself every time I think of how wrong and selfish I was for not having her spayed right away. Anyways, I had a neighbor who had a little male Maltese who brought him over to play on occasion. I had no idea Katie was in heat at the time. No spotting on anything and no noticable swelling. Trust me, I looked because she was 1.5 years old at the time and still not had a heat cycle... or so I thought. So Jack was dropped off for a play visit and I went to get a load of laundry from the basement and when I returned they were locked. I was horrified. Jack was a petshop puppy. I called my vet immediately and she said we could always abort the puppies. OMG!!! No way could I choose to end the life of helpless little puppies. My hubby and I decided to let nature take it's course, afterall, Katie is only 6 lbs and Jack a mere 5 lbs on a good day. Both within breed standards. BIG mistake. Katie went in for weekly check ups beginning at 5 weeks. Everything was looking good. Fast forward to Easter Sunday. It was 10:12 am and my daughhter started screaming Katie is having her puppies. I run in the room and there is a breach puppy STUCK. I called my vet and she attempted to get me calmed down enough to try to get the puppy out. Well I calmed down but that puppy was really really stuck. She told me to get to her office ASAP. The office was 35 miles away and I made it there in record time. The female puppy was pulled out and was dead. Dead because I chose to let nature take it course. The second puppy started to come and it just plopped right out and Katie took right to biting the sack and cleaning that puppy off. The female puppy cried and so did I. The contractions seemed to have stopped so the vet took her and did an ultrasound. She saw 2 more puppies so she gave her some Potossin to start the contractions again. The next 2 puppies (males and female) were just like the fist one. They got stuck in the birth canal and were dead (again, my fault.) I was heartbroken. I felt so helpless. The 3 that didn't make it were large. The surviving pup was half their size. When we got home Katie and I were exhausted. I could tell she was relieved that it was over. The next 2 days went well, or so I thought. Per my vets instruction, I was weighing the surviving puppy 3 times a day. By the second weighing on the second day I noticed the puppy had lost weight. I called my vet and away we went for another vet visit. To my horror, Katie wasn't producing enough milk to sustain the lone pup. The vet showed me how to bottle feed the pup and home we went. I was getting to be a pro at feeding and since I don't sleep much anyway the every 2 hours around the clock was no big deal to me. The pup was growing like a little weed and she was soooo cute. My hubbies family was fighting over her but we decided we were keeping her forever. Forever turned out to be 10 days. 10 very long but short days. At 7 days old she had a vet visit and everything was good. Her heart/lungs sounded good. Her weight was fantastic and she looked picture perfect. I have never learned so much in 10 days as I did then. Katie's baby died at age 10 days from a class 5 heart murmur. Nothing could have saved her. She died in my hands. Katie knew immediately that something was wrong and started to scream. When we got home she ran through the house looking for her baby and screaming. She would ram her head under the sofa looking. The sound she was making was horrifying. I never imagined a dog could make that sound. We ended up having her put on mild tranquilizers for a few days to prevent her from hurting herself. Within 6 months of that time, Katie developed epilepsy. I adopted Katie when she was 6 months old. All I know is that her original family moved from CA. Even though both Katie and Jack were within breed standards for weight and size, somewhere in their lines were larger Maltese. I learned a very hard and sad lesson... and none of this was intentional. I never intended on breeding my little princess. The only good thing that came out of this whole thing was the knowlege I aquired and that in the fall of that year Jack came to live with us permanently. This all took place 15 and a half years ago and is still very fresh in my memory.
> 
> ...


Kim, I just wanted to say that I am sorry that you had to go through such ordeal. I hope that your experience helps to educate the OP and even people in the future that are thinking about breeding their dogs just for FUN. Thank you for your post.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> To the OP. This response is just my opinion and based on the wording of your original post you knew this would get some hair raised on this forum. You say that you are forcing your dog to have puppies because it is fun for you and it is all about happy puppies. Does your dog think it is fun? Did your dog tell you that she enjoys having to be woken up just when she falls asleep to a puppy who feels the need to have a late night snack? Did your dog tell you that she loved giving birth to 4 babies or how she wasn't scared when the first puppy got stuck in the birth canal? Did your dog tell you that she felt no pain after her c-section even when she was nursing puppies? I say your dog because after reading all your posts, that is the feeling I get from you. That your dog is just that.... just your dog.
> 
> I would like to share a story about irresponsible breeding. The really bad part is that it happened to my precious Katie. The breeding was not intentional, it was an accident. Katie was the only female furkid in the house at the time and our Shelby (large dog) was neutered so I put off having her spayed for my own selfish fear of putting her under. I kick myself every time I think of how wrong and selfish I was for not having her spayed right away. Anyways, I had a neighbor who had a little male Maltese who brought him over to play on occasion. I had no idea Katie was in heat at the time. No spotting on anything and no noticable swelling. Trust me, I looked because she was 1.5 years old at the time and still not had a heat cycle... or so I thought. So Jack was dropped off for a play visit and I went to get a load of laundry from the basement and when I returned they were locked. I was horrified. Jack was a petshop puppy. I called my vet immediately and she said we could always abort the puppies. OMG!!! No way could I choose to end the life of helpless little puppies. My hubby and I decided to let nature take it's course, afterall, Katie is only 6 lbs and Jack a mere 5 lbs on a good day. Both within breed standards. BIG mistake. Katie went in for weekly check ups beginning at 5 weeks. Everything was looking good. Fast forward to Easter Sunday. It was 10:12 am and my daughhter started screaming Katie is having her puppies. I run in the room and there is a breach puppy STUCK. I called my vet and she attempted to get me calmed down enough to try to get the puppy out. Well I calmed down but that puppy was really really stuck. She told me to get to her office ASAP. The office was 35 miles away and I made it there in record time. The female puppy was pulled out and was dead. Dead because I chose to let nature take it course. The second puppy started to come and it just plopped right out and Katie took right to biting the sack and cleaning that puppy off. The female puppy cried and so did I. The contractions seemed to have stopped so the vet took her and did an ultrasound. She saw 2 more puppies so she gave her some Potossin to start the contractions again. The next 2 puppies (males and female) were just like the fist one. They got stuck in the birth canal and were dead (again, my fault.) I was heartbroken. I felt so helpless. The 3 that didn't make it were large. The surviving pup was half their size. When we got home Katie and I were exhausted. I could tell she was relieved that it was over. The next 2 days went well, or so I thought. Per my vets instruction, I was weighing the surviving puppy 3 times a day. By the second weighing on the second day I noticed the puppy had lost weight. I called my vet and away we went for another vet visit. To my horror, Katie wasn't producing enough milk to sustain the lone pup. The vet showed me how to bottle feed the pup and home we went. I was getting to be a pro at feeding and since I don't sleep much anyway the every 2 hours around the clock was no big deal to me. The pup was growing like a little weed and she was soooo cute. My hubbies family was fighting over her but we decided we were keeping her forever. Forever turned out to be 10 days. 10 very long but short days. At 7 days old she had a vet visit and everything was good. Her heart/lungs sounded good. Her weight was fantastic and she looked picture perfect. I have never learned so much in 10 days as I did then. Katie's baby died at age 10 days from a class 5 heart murmur. Nothing could have saved her. She died in my hands. Katie knew immediately that something was wrong and started to scream. When we got home she ran through the house looking for her baby and screaming. She would ram her head under the sofa looking. The sound she was making was horrifying. I never imagined a dog could make that sound. We ended up having her put on mild tranquilizers for a few days to prevent her from hurting herself. Within 6 months of that time, Katie developed epilepsy. I adopted Katie when she was 6 months old. All I know is that her original family moved from CA. Even though both Katie and Jack were within breed standards for weight and size, somewhere in their lines were larger Maltese. I learned a very hard and sad lesson... and none of this was intentional. I never intended on breeding my little princess. The only good thing that came out of this whole thing was the knowlege I aquired and that in the fall of that year Jack came to live with us permanently. This all took place 15 and a half years ago and is still very fresh in my memory.
> 
> ...


What a heartbreaking story! I am so sorry that happened to you. *hugs you*


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Oh, Kim, I had no idea you'd gone through something like that. Your story brought tears to my eyes. :grouphug:


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

you know... i've been thinking.... if that breeder recommended this site to her, she probably knew what our response would be....and instead of that breeder telling her what she didn't want to hear, she left it up to us...


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> you know... i've been thinking.... if that breeder recommended this site to her, she probably knew what our response would be....and instead of that breeder telling her what she didn't want to hear, she left it up to us...[/B]


I agree with you 110%. That is what I meant in one of my earlier post. The breeder sent the OP here with a goal in mind.


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

> Oh, Kim, I had no idea you'd gone through something like that. Your story brought tears to my eyes. :grouphug:[/B]


Thank you Becky, Stacy and Marj for your warm thoughts. I don't often talk about Katie's puppies story but when I do, I do it for educational purposes. I think about those 10 days often, especially now when I look at my Katie and think that I could have lost her all those years ago because of my carelessness. It was an honest accident but still. There are alot of "what if's" when it comes to breeding and delivery. I really don't think most people give that a thought. Most people think it's easy... you just put 2 dogs together, have cute puppies to play with then sell the puppies to put some green in your wallet. Right??? Wrong. The only really good thing that came out of that whole ordeal was that my precious Katie had her life spared. I shudder to think of what would have happened had I gone to my sisters for Easter as planned instead of talking her into coming to my house the night before. I was a stay at home mom at the time too but you can't always be home 24/7. My vet bill was huge and I received a discount. I can only imagine what it would have cost me now with todays prices of everything. I just get upset when people talk about it like it's a game you can play for some good fun. It's not a game. These are real little lives that are at risk. You really have to know what you are doing.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

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 :blush: sorry, i just skimmed through the replies...


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Carry no reason to say you are sorry. The more the OP sees, maybe it will sink in.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

My goodness Kim, talk about bad luck. So sorry this happened with your Katie. It makes me double realize how lucky I was. I know very well what you mean that you didn't see she was in heat. I didn't see that my dachshund was in heat either. Never saw a drop of blood. To tell you how ignorant I was, I only realized she was pregnant when I saw her gaining weight and having a round belly. I then suspected the "rapist" being a neighborhood dog (he was the only one walking loose around and coming to pee on my front door) who was almost 2-½ times her size. This was the second litter for my dachshund. The breeder agreed to sell her to us because the babies she had were too small. The night before she delivered the pups she was crying and I took her to the vet first thing in the morning. He could not feel the pups moving (no wonder there were 7 of them). He gave her a shot and said that if at 5 pm she has not started delivering I should give her a second shot. Right, I have never done that in my life. I asked my neighboor who was a nurse to do it but the babies came around 4 pm one after the other. I could not believe my eyes that there were 7 of them. Vet told me that if the second shot does not work, to come back at 8 am and he will do a c-section. Now before anybody jumps the gun, let me tell you that this happened 30 years ago and nobody was talking about spaying and neutering. I not even knew something like this could be done.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

When we got our Missy I did think to myself how darling she was and wouldn't it be nice to have her babies too.! Well, it was only a passing thought...not a serious one!! I knew full well I knew nothing about breeding her ...especially her being so small..I'd never in a 1000 years risk her life at something I know I was not equipped to do. 
As time went on and all her health issues came forth I was sure glad it was I who got her and not someone who might have decided to go ahead and breed her! She came from a home that a lovely family just decided to breed their male and female pets. I thought because she was born in-house, romped in amongst the living area with the family, that this was a 'good-thing". Oh they loved their mama, papa and pups and they did take good care of them ( they and their environment were very clean and a lot of attention given to them...BUT! ...
I was ignorant at the time I admit! Later came to realize mama and papa came from petstore. Missy had later developed so many problems..had more surgeries /procedures /treatments than any one little dog should ever have to have! 
Oh yes.. she was a "bargain" at $100 ( because no papers but 'we didn't care about that'... and no 'lightbulb' went on as to the 'why" ) She ended up costing us thousands upon thousands upon thousands for her care...(that is NOT an exaggeration!) and that was with having a very reasonable vet who often didn't charge for things. It wasn't just the money ...but my poor little girl had to endure procedures and treatments in order to get and keep her well. As it was she passed at age 10.... she should have had several more years! If she had been sold to somebody else they may well have bred her... and passed along the defective genetics on to another dear little pooch who would have to endure some or all of that.. maybe worse. 
The unfortunate thing is many of the 'problems' don't crop up until several years later! we were diligent from the start with her vet care.. and all seemed Ok in the very beginning years.


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## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

These are the stories that break my heart... :smcry: :smcry: Im so sorry this has happned to so many, My heart goes out to all of you with a story wether you have posted it or not...Thankyou all for sticking with your furbabies wether healthy or not, show quality or not, and Thank you Bob Barker for saying every day " Help control the pet population, have your pets spayed or netured!"


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## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

i find you to be a mean spirited and nasty group...have you changed my mind...no


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Terry, thank you for again bringing up the fact that poorly bred Maltese from backyard breeders may seem completely healthy for many years until those "genetic time bombs" start going off.

Lady is a rescue so I'm not sure if she came from a byb or pet store, but it's the same thing. BYB's are breeding from pet store/puppy mill lines anyway. Lady was the picture of health until she was almost five. First it was epilepsy, then diabetes, arthritis, allergies, hypothyroidism, a heart murmur plus all the endless infections and eye problems from being diabetic.

She was somebody's "bargain" puppy back then. She's no bargain now with her $250 plus a month medication bills (this doesn't include non-prescription supplements, artificial tears, etc). This also doesn't include the vet bills to monitor her various conditions which have been about $1300 so far this year.

Lady's breeder may have also thought it was "fun" to have puppies, but take it from me, it's not much fun to watch your dog have a seizure or have to give insulin shots twice a day, everyday, exactly twelve hours apart.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> i find you to be a mean spirited and nasty group...have you changed my mind...no[/B]


 :shocked: 

Sorry, I did try to help you and I don't think I was nasty.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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You weren't. Neither were the other posters to this thread. Everyone showed their respect for animals and an understanding of the responsibility that comes with breeding. 

It seems that often when someone doesn't agree with what is being said or doesn't have an open mind, we are accused of being rude or mean, and the like.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> i find you to be a mean spirited and nasty group...have you changed my mind...no[/B]



You can always change our mind about any misconceptions we may have about you by responding to my post (#34) and tell us how your breeding practices comply with the American Maltese Association's Code of Ethics. 

If you don't, I'll assume you have chosen to duck the question by labeling us mean spirited and nasty instead.


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

My first little Maltese came from a "breeder" in Louisiana. He was the sweetest little guy. I found him in the newspaper, and he had AKC papers. Anyway, Bubba lived a very short life. It all started when he wasn't even 4 months old. He started chewing on his foot, so I took him to the vet in CO while we were on vacation. He wrapped his foot with gauze to keep him from chewing on it. Well, Bubba ate the gauze and started pooping blood. Anyway, that vet found that he had hip displasia among other things, and things went from bad to worse. He had horrible allergies, and he was on steriod pills and allergy shots, etc, for way too long. Bubba chewed most of the hair off one side of his little body. Finally, I found an allergy specialist, but it was really too late. He was allergic to the food we were feeding him, and he got better after a lot of meds. Unfortunately, the other treatments had weakend his immune system and damaged his heart. He died suddenly of heart failure at the age of 5 or 6. Honestly, I don't remember, but it was much too young. I blame this on a "breeder" who thought it was fun to breed dogs in her home and sell them even for a low price. 

I still didn't learn. I purchased a dog from a pet store which advertised that it did not support puppymills. That dog died 5 days later from Parvo. I learned then. I did research, and I purchased Coco from an approved breeder on the AMA list. I have a very healthy and sweet dog we can totally enjoy and not have to pay outrageous vet bills for illnesses which should not have to occur.

All I can say is I am surprised that anyone will allow their Championship male to be bred to just any dog. That's not to take away from your female, but I have to wonder why this information sounds so different from what I know of breeders of show dogs.

Anyway, this is my story, and you may take it for what it is worth. I know there are a few people on SM who breed and don't have show dogs in their breeding program, but that doesn't make it right. I just hope you will reconsider and listen to what these other people have related to you. They really care about the health and well-being of all dogs, not just our spoiled little Maltese.

My dog has mulitple champions in her pedigree, and there is no way I would have ever thought of breeding her. She was spayed at 6 months, even though her breeder suggested I wait until a year in case I might want to show her. I had no desire to show, and I cannot even imagine what it would be like to breed a little baby like I have.

Please reconsider what you are doing and listen closely to what those who have posted are saying to you. If you feel it is nasty, then I don't know what to say to you, but we only care about the pups.


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## doodlebug (Aug 16, 2007)

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frankly, you and bellaratamaltese were the only ones who truly tried to help. i thank you for that.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

> i find you to be a mean spirited and nasty group...have you changed my mind...no[/B]



I don't usually chime in on these discussions because of my knowledge on breeding being at minus 100%, but it seems to me you had your mind already made up before you even made your first post. I think you must be very young because that's what I always told my mom when I asked for her permission to do something and her answer would be no - I always told her much to my regret - "you are so mean, I'm doing it anyway - ha!" I hope for the sake of your baby that you listen to the other members here because they are posting with a cumulative 1,000's of years of experience. Nuff said.

Linda


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Kim - thanks for sharing your sad story.

All, in all, that's what I meant in my post -- that breeding is fun IF everything goes right. Most breeders aren't prepared for when it goes wrong (myself included) and I believe that anyone that has bred for any length of time, will have heartbreaking stories to tell as well as mostly happy ones. I know that I do.

I agree that the person that sent her to SM knew what we'd tell her.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I didn't feel my post was mean and nasty.... I was just stating a reality that we and more so, our little girl, had to endure...it was NOT fun! 
I stated the family were very nice and appeared to take good care of their mama, papa and pups. All the pooches looked very happy and healthy. I will go on to say... I don't think they were "bad" people.. I honestly believe they were as ignorant as we were . I don't think they made a business out of the pups.. I think they too felt it would be a "fun" experience but had no clue as to what the eventual result would be. I do know one of the other pups had to have knee surgery at a year old...Missy had to have 2 knee surgeries but not till she was a bit older than that.
I can only suggest you print out our posts and share them with your breeder-friend and your vet and have a discussion with them. I can only assume you feel there is no way any of the bad experiences those of us who shared our real-life experiences could relate to your situation. That may well be true... but if you truly are sincere in wanting to have a good line of puppies and eliminating as much as possible the chances of OUR experiences with happening with YOUR pups then I'd assume you'd want to discuss these situations with the 'experts' and get their advise. I also assume you want the best for your mama and are going to keep HER best interest in mind as well.


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

> i find you to be a mean spirited and nasty group...have you changed my mind...no[/B]


I am sorry you feel that way. I don't see where anyone of us was being mean and nasty to you. However, you did ask for opinions and while I am sure the opinions you got were not what you were looking for, they were very valuable opinions. These opinions are based off of knowledge, real life experiences and a very committed love for this amazing breed. Take them or leave them, it's your choice.


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## thelittlepet (Apr 18, 2006)

I have not read all the replies but needed to say, just because your pups are raised in your living room does not mean you are not a backyard breeder. Please read all the posts in the intent they were given. Love for the breed and for animals in general, even if they are not what you want to hear.
Aimee


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

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 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: I did not know that you and Katie went through all of this :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: 

aaawww!! give Katie hugs from me. I just imagined her run and search for her baby :bysmilie:


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## kathym (Aug 5, 2006)

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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

Does anyone else ever wonder if the idiot who used own the "other" site is possibly posting here every so often just to get everyone in a tizzy? :wacko1: It just wouldn't surprise me......he's that :wacko1: :wacko1: :wacko1:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> Does anyone else ever wonder if the idiot who used own the "other" site is possibly posting here every so often just to get everyone in a tizzy? :wacko1: It just wouldn't surprise me......he's that :wacko1: :wacko1: :wacko1:[/B]


I agree.

Also, sadly, we've had a problem here with our own members having "secret identities" (see Joe's post on multiple user names) and using their "alter egos" to stir up trouble.

We also periodically get trolls here.

Who knows what the story is in this case?

It does appear that the OP chose to name call and then disappear rather than explain how she qualifies as a responsible Maltese breeder according to the AMA's guidelines.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I agree.


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

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I didn't know, I'll have to read that post. Pretty sad that anyone would find it necessary to do that.....I guess their lives must be pretty empty....and I feel sorry for their dogs. I'm not saying that I'm an angel, but I've never hidden my opinion behind an "alter ego".


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

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Here's the thread: 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23153


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I'm not saying this is the case here for I don't know...but I do think there will always be those who at least in the backs of their minds know they are not really being responsible . ( Either they've already been advise so or just "know" ) yet they are hoping to get some kind of validation by posting... hoping there will be some who will give them the "ok" . Then they can take the "agree-ers" and feel "Ok' . It goes to the old "hearing what we want to hear" and 'Not hearing" that which goes against what we want. 
From time to time we get a poster on the pet diabetes board that will come on and state their pooch has been dx with diabetes, and will first start with how much they love their pooch... but end up stating they think they may put their pooch down because they feel it is 'cruel' to give shots every day.... or even because they are concerned that they won't be able to live their 'normal-lifestyle' if they have to treat their pooch. they'll ask 'what should I do" or often just make the statement they'll likely put their dogs down or worse just not treat period and let nature take its course! Now 99.9% of the members have dedicated themselves to being sure their pooches have proper treatment and yes it does change their lifestyle... but their love for their pet out-weighs all else. They do what they need to do for the best interest of their pet. You can imagine the passionate responses. Not treating is a terribly cruel death and they get told so.
In some cases we never hear from the owners again and that always weigh heavy on my heart to wonder what they decided..in other cases, once they have been informed that though in the beginning it takes "work", but with dedication, and commitment, once regulated.. ones lifestyle can usually be accomodated they end up treating and in fact become valuable members. However there's always those "few" that came wanting to ease their minds that it is "OK" to put their pooch to sleep or to not treat but let the deisease simply 'take" their pooch..and when they don't get the response they want to hear that actually get miffied when nobody backs them up. Some will come back for a time or two and respond with anger that "we" have no right to 'tell' them what to do etc. I never understood their posting in the first place...seeking information/advise but when it isn't what they want to hear they get their backs up. As I said, I don't think they are seeking information... I think they're hoping to have someone 'validate' the decision they have already decided upon.


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

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I didn't know, I'll have to read that post. Pretty sad that anyone would find it necessary to do that.....I guess their lives must be pretty empty....and I feel sorry for their dogs. I'm not saying that I'm an angel, but I've never hidden my opinion behind an "alter ego".
[/B][/QUOTE]

Here's the thread: 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23153
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, I missed that entire, 7 page thread, lol. I must be one of the multiple-user people, lol. BUT...(hold on, daughter #1 is giving daughter #2 an indian sunburn--I am so freakin ready for these kids to go back to school...) oh yeah, I skimmed the thread and still do not know what "sofa king" is--somebody please email me, lol. I am blond. 

I belong to a parenting forum that I've been a part of for 8+ years and every so often some weirdo comes along and "argues with themselves" or some sicko will come on and start asking multiple, very weird questions about potty training, etc. There's some absolutely mind-blowing, weird and SICK people out there!!!!!

There's been a few posters on this forum that come asking about breeding or puppymills and they are supposedly already dog owners, even malt owners, and I think, now I know I am a bit slow at times, but are these people really THAT stupid and then I think no, this looks like some kind of bait to get people riled up or something. Gosh I wish I had that kind of time on my hands (disclaimer--I'm not saying that the OP on this tread is a fake--who knows--it is weird, though, when people don't answer specific questions!)


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## lilguyparker (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't know if Doodlebug is a fake or is trying to purposefully cause a heated thread, but I do think people visit the forum to gain knowlege. Sometimes they may ask silly questions or really show ignorance. I stumbled across this forum when searching for a breeder. Now I'm hooked. I read all the topics because it's very useful information. I still think I'm clueless, but I'm less clueless now than 2 months ago.

About 2 months ago I began my research. I wanted a maltese for a pet and not for show and breeding. So, I didn't think it was necessary to get my pup from a show breeder. I started looking in papers and online...nextdaypuppies, etc. I called a few of them, asked questions but got a weird vibe from them. I even visited a "breeder" and later I learned she was a backyard breeder. I considered purchasing from a pet store, but then educated myself on puppymills. I learned a great deal about breeding, puppymills, and BYB. I came to the conclusion that my pup will come from a responsible show breeder. Through this forum, I found my breeder. 

Show breeders also produce pet quality pets. Although a lot of BYB, including doodlebug, may only be breeding to produce pet quality pups, I personally will never ever purchase or support puppymills, petstores or BYB...not after what I learned. 

That's my two cents from a buyer's point of view. Oh, and I applaud anyone who rescues dogs.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

This has been a strange thread and I have tried to stay out of it. My thought on the whole thing is...
Does Doodlebug know her line? Is it a clean line or will she be breeding problems. If she is breeding than, in my opinion, she should know if she could breed her bitch again. She should be reading, reading more and talking to a reputable breeder that help her, and again only if she has a clean line.
I have a friend that was breeding Malts just because she loves the breed so much. She had some problems, retired her male and female, and went to a well known breeder and got two clean dogs and wants to start over in a few years. She has read everything possible and I do not believe that if she had a question, would ask on a forum. I have nothing against someone that wants to breed but do it the right way! Clean lines and no problems. Best for the pups and new owners.
Doodlebug wouldn't answer those questions. Come back DB and help us understand. ( If there is a DB!!! )

Thanks for listening.

Marsha


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## kcalbat (Mar 13, 2007)

I find that the people from this site are very caring. I dont understand how some people get so offended....so you are all mean and nasty because you shared stories of past incidences of nightmares of BackYard Breeding. I imagine dragging those memories up must have been painful, but thank you for doing it. Even if the OP is too stubborn and closed minded to even take heed to the advice...I KNOW that at least you all CARE enough to educate. 

I know I am a converted. I never actually bred a dog EVER. To say it is even remotely fun... The health of my dogs and the future of my breed depends on me and the choices I make. My four pit bulls and my love bug, Skwooshee, WILL NOT contribute to the mass of dogs being put to sleep everyday or to the good people like the few here who are paying dearly (emotionally and financially) for their slightly not so well bred furbabies. ( i have four!)


I will not force them to give birth for my selfish pleasure of having cute puppies around.....or a fat check in my hand. That is not love, that is greed, whether you are in it for the money or not.


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

> I find that the people from this site are very caring. I dont understand how some people get so offended....so you are all mean and nasty because you shared stories of past incidences of nightmares of BackYard Breeding. I imagine dragging those memories up must have been painful, but thank you for doing it. Even if the OP is too stubborn and closed minded to even take heed to the advice...I KNOW that at least you all CARE enough to educate.
> 
> I know I am a converted. I never actually bred a dog EVER. To say it is even remotely fun... The health of my dogs and the future of my breed depends on me and the choices I make. My four pit bulls and my love bug, Skwooshee, WILL NOT contribute to the mass of dogs being put to sleep everyday or to the good people like the few here who are paying dearly (emotionally and financially) for their slightly not so well bred furbabies. ( i have four!)
> 
> ...


Very well said :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> I find that the people from this site are very caring. I dont understand how some people get so offended....so you are all mean and nasty because you shared stories of past incidences of nightmares of BackYard Breeding. I imagine dragging those memories up must have been painful, but thank you for doing it. Even if the OP is too stubborn and closed minded to even take heed to the advice...I KNOW that at least you all CARE enough to educate.
> 
> I know I am a converted. I never actually bred a dog EVER. To say it is even remotely fun... The health of my dogs and the future of my breed depends on me and the choices I make. My four pit bulls and my love bug, Skwooshee, WILL NOT contribute to the mass of dogs being put to sleep everyday or to the good people like the few here who are paying dearly (emotionally and financially) for their slightly not so well bred furbabies. ( i have four!)
> 
> ...


 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> I find that the people from this site are very caring. I dont understand how some people get so offended....so you are all mean and nasty because you shared stories of past incidences of nightmares of BackYard Breeding. I imagine dragging those memories up must have been painful, but thank you for doing it. Even if the OP is too stubborn and closed minded to even take heed to the advice...I KNOW that at least you all CARE enough to educate.
> 
> I know I am a converted. I never actually bred a dog EVER. To say it is even remotely fun... The health of my dogs and the future of my breed depends on me and the choices I make. My four pit bulls and my love bug, Skwooshee, WILL NOT contribute to the mass of dogs being put to sleep everyday or to the good people like the few here who are paying dearly (emotionally and financially) for their slightly not so well bred furbabies. ( i have four!)
> 
> ...



So well said!

I know that many of us regularly get criticized for warning against buying a puppy from a backyard breeder or pet store. Some people don't understand that we try to educate because we care. Those of us who have loved a Maltese that is poorly bred like my Lady and had their heartbroken (and wallet) because of all the health issues feel an obligation to try to warn prospective puppy buyers.

It gets discouraging sometimes to take the time to explain the difference between a responsible breeder and a byb or puppy mill only to have people get offended when confronted with the truth. I do find, though, that a lot of people do listen, a lot more than you might realize.

I get pm's all the time from people thanking me for the articles I posted or the stories I have shared about Lady and her huge vet bills. They say over and over again how glad they were to have found SM before they made a big mistake. It's also amazing to me how many "lurkers", people I don't even know, read what we post about pet stores and byb's and don't reply, but follow our advice. I've had several people read old posts of mine, from several years ago, and thank me for sharing my experience.

I personally have learned to ignore the people who get defensive and go into "attack mode." Those are the people who will have to learn the hard way what can happen if you get a puppy from a byb or pet store. Fortunately, they are much more vocal, but really in the minority.


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