# Why a breeder would not register puppies?



## aea6574 (Feb 18, 2006)

Howdy All:

I hope you are great.

A breeder I know who I think is great said she has a litter that she is not going to register and that they would be a little less money. I have not had a chance to ask her yet so I thought I would ask here. 

Why would she not register a litter? I have no clue, not sure if it is a money thing, or if she thinks the puppies are not perfect quality, or what?

She sent me pictures of the puppies and they are just so cute, I think that the one boy out of the litter she is registering is even cuter though.

I would appreciate your thoughts.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maybe an accidental breeding? The sire and dam have to be at least 12 mos old to register a litter and I know of one very good Havanese breeder whose 9 month old male puppy accidently got to a bitch she was planning on breeding- as a result- she could not register the litter.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Maybe the breeder doesn't want the AKC to know that she/he is doing a lot of breedings. I think they just inspect breeders who breed a certain amount and maybe this breeder is trying to stay under this amount.

Registering does not have anything to do with the quality of the puppies, so I don't think that would have anything at all to do with it.

Personally, I would not buy from a breeder who was not going to register the litter. For some reason it just rubs me the wrong way and seems like someone is hiding something. There are a lot of great Malt breeders to choose from. If it were me, I'd look elsewhere.


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## bellasmummy (Apr 8, 2009)

I agree maybe a accidental breeding, ir the stud or bitch are too young or old. Or prehaps theres something wrong with the puppy although i think you can still register it. Not 100% sure there. 

To be honest though i wouldnt buy from someone who wasnt going to register. Now, that sounds weird coming from the person who bought a dog with the most serious heart condition and who was only given 6 months to live!! (everyone told me i was crazy, but bellas 8 next jan so.. lol) and although id never change things ive learnt a lot in that time. Bellas mother was infact over 8 years old and should never have been having pups (bella obviously couldnt be registered because of this) and the vet is pretty sure that her heart condition is down to her mothers age and health and 'poor' breeding. 

Id ask why they arent going to register if the parents are both KC reg themselfs. and see what they say - for all it costs to register a litter it seems odd to me


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Sounds like she doesn't want to get caught breeding too many litters.


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## aea6574 (Feb 18, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

She is a great lady and the puppy we are looking at is from the registered litter. She also happens to be the breeder of Bacchus and Bibi. And although we lost Bacchus at a young age, I think that was not the fault of the breeder, Bibi is healthy as can be. 

I am not sure what to think, I guess the first step would be to ask her why she is not registering the one litter and go from there.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

If you posted the reason before sorry, but would you please refresh our memories the circumstances surrounding Bacchus' early demise?

It just sounds "fishy" the litter will not be registered. By all outwardly appearances if she's willing to deceive AKC, who else is she comfortable deceiving? You? 

Since the topic is this breeder and her pups, is she a well known show breeder?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

aea6574 said:


> Thanks everyone for the feedback.
> 
> She is a great lady and the puppy we are looking at is from the registered litter. She also happens to be the breeder of Bacchus and Bibi. And although we lost Bacchus at a young age, I think that was not the fault of the breeder, Bibi is healthy as can be.
> 
> I am not sure what to think, I guess the first step would be to ask her why she is not registering the one litter and go from there.


Tony, if I recall, your Bacchus died of kidney failure when he was only four years old. Most likely that was genetic and was the breeder's fault.

I personally would not buy a puppy from the same breeder.


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## bellasmummy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes, like we said all we can do is ask but remember ''nice'' doesnt really come into it. Anyone can seem nice, esp when they are trying to make a sale. Of course not all proper breeders are in it for the money, but many ar. Sadly i have learnt that myself. We have a lot going on with our maltese and her breeder at the moment (which i cant say on here yet) but lets just say ive learnt the hard way. The breeder your talking about does sound a bit 'dodgy' to me. sorry


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Sometimes, it isn't always the breeders fault that they can't register the puppies. For example, the owner of the sire won't sign off on the litter or if you co-own the mom with someone and they won't sign off on the litter. 

But if they aren't registering the litter because they want to fly under AKC radar, then that is a different story. Maybe the pups aren't AKC eligible? 

I am not familiar with the breeder you got Bacchuss or Bibi' from. Do they have a large breeding program? What is their kennel name?

Just the fact that you are questioning things tells me that you are not 100% comfortable. I would listen to your gut and go from there.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I agree that your first step should be to ask the breeder. Anyone could guess at the reasons and unfortunately sometimes a wrong guess still has a way of becoming fact. Best to get the answer straight from the source.

As for AKC's rules regarding ages of sires and dams used for breeding, the following is taken directly from the AKC Rules and Regs for Registration (http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RREGS4.pdf):

_"SECTION 5. No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8) months or over twelve (12) years of age at time of mating, or by a sire under seven (7) months or over twelve (12) years of age at time of mating, will be registered unless the application for registration shall be accompanied by an affidavit or evidence which shall prove the fact to the satisfaction of The American Kennel Club."_


And as a point of clarification, the foregoing does not say the litter is not eligible to be registered. It says that the application must be accompanied by proof that the sire/dam was in fact able to be bred. I bred once to a dog older than 12. Before I could do the breeding, the sire's sperm count had to be certified by my vet and a letter of certification signed by my vet had to accompany the litter registration. So while a young dog may have sired this particular litter, it does not mean it is ineligible for registration.


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## bellasmummy (Apr 8, 2009)

> Just the fact that you are questioning things tells me that you are not 100% comfortable. I would listen to your gut and go from there.
> __________________


I have to agree with that, i wish i had listened to my gut when it came to buying my malts before


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## aea6574 (Feb 18, 2006)

Howdy Again All:

Thanks again for the discussion.

To be honest my "Gut" tells me to run and pick up this beautiful little boy that she has from the litter she is registering. I was curious as to why someone would not register and had not asked her yet and thought I would check here.

I have asked her for her thoughts on this as well. 

Beyond being "nice", I would say that she was referred to me by one of the top breeders in the area when we were looking as she did not have any. She has always been a great communicator about everything related to the dogs. She also really, really cares about her dogs and where they go.

Does that explanation help?

Best regards, tony


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

It's possible the breeder isn't sure of the sire and doesn't want to do DNA. Perhaps the female had an opportunity to be bred by more than one male. 
I know of one well known very well know show breeder who has posted on a forum that she chooses not to register a litter when there is only one pup.


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## sunnycleveland (Apr 3, 2010)

bellasmummy said:


> Yes, like we said all we can do is ask but remember ''nice'' doesnt really come into it. Anyone can seem nice, esp when they are trying to make a sale. *Of course not all proper breeders are in it for the money, but many ar.* Sadly i have learnt that myself. We have a lot going on with our maltese and her breeder at the moment (which i cant say on here yet) but lets just say ive learnt the hard way. The breeder your talking about does sound a bit 'dodgy' to me. sorry


 
From personal experience, many reputable breeders will tell you what you want to hear - they always have a "perfect pup for you", whether you want a velcrow dog or an independent pup or whatever it may be - size, health, temperament, fascial features, or even amount of tear staining... we all end up loving our babies to pieces but it would be nice if what we were promised (and paid for) was true. 

sorry for venting, maybe I'm just grumpy today....


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

sunnycleveland said:


> From personal experience, many reputable breeders will tell you what you want to hear - they always have a "perfect pup for you", whether you want a velcrow dog or an independent pup or whatever it may be - size, health, temperament, fascial features, or even amount of tear staining... we all end up loving our babies to pieces but it would be nice if what we were promised (and paid for) was true.
> 
> sorry for venting, maybe I'm just grumpy today....


 
I'm sorry that you felt like you were decieved. :grouphug:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

sunnycleveland said:


> From personal experience, many reputable breeders will tell you what you want to hear - they always have a "perfect pup for you", whether you want a velcrow dog or an independent pup or whatever it may be - size, health, temperament, fascial features, or even amount of tear staining... we all end up loving our babies to pieces but it would be nice if what we were promised (and paid for) was true.
> 
> sorry for venting, maybe I'm just grumpy today....


I totally agree with you. Sounding like a broken record again, this can and does happen all the time when buying over the internet. Pictures can be altered. Worse yet, how would you know that the picture you are being sent is really of the pup you are interested in purchasing? Best to meet the breeder and pups in person or, if that's not possible, see if you can find someone in the breeder's area willing to check out the pups for you.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

As has been pointed out here previously there are a variety of reasons a breeder might not register a litter. 

The one that makes me most concerned though is the chance that they are not doing so to avoid AKC inspection. This is becoming a bit too common. For years the AKC claimed they were only a registry and were not able to police breeders to determine their practices. That of course was true, but in negotiations with activists they did come up with a way of trying to become the registry that did not support puppy mills. One of the ways they did this was to institute and inspection program and a DNA program for breeders who breed in larger numbers. The AKC is still not "policing" breeders, but they are authenticating their registry with greater emphasis on the paperwork and the use of DNA. This is one of the reasons why many mills and petstore pups now do not come with AKC registration but instead one of those "fake" registries. 

In supporting this effort, I think it is important that buyers hold breeders accountable and expect AKC registration on the litters unless there is a truly compelling reason why they might not be able to. (The item Stacy mentioned is one; however, in that case, the AKC will usually make a ruling allowing a litter to be registered, but it might take time. If I were the buyer in that scenario, I would ask that this process be followed though to the conclusion). I would also expect honesty on the part of the breeder. 

Sunnycleveland, this is so true. Please do your research. Do not assume a breeder is reputable just because others say so. Do not assume a breeder is reputable just because they show. Every puppy buyer should take responsibility for learning as much as they can about the breeder they hope to work with. Sadly, it is difficult sometimes to tell the good from the bad. There are sooo many wonderful breeders out there, and they deserve support from well-intentioned puppy buyers. We do not need to support those who are in the breed for the wrong reasons.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

MaryH said:


> I agree that your first step should be to ask the breeder. Anyone could guess at the reasons and unfortunately sometimes a wrong guess still has a way of becoming fact. Best to get the answer straight from the source.
> 
> As for AKC's rules regarding ages of sires and dams used for breeding, the following is taken directly from the AKC Rules and Regs for Registration (http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RREGS4.pdf):
> 
> ...


Mary -- thanks for posting. I was going to go to AKC website and see if the rules had changed. Glad to hear that they have not. I was lucky enough to breed 2 litters from the all time top producing Lhasa sire. It was a granddaughter/grandsire breeding, and the 1st litter was so good that we decided to do a repeat of the breeding. The sire had turned 12 before the dam came into season again and we had to have a certification from the Vet. This litter was as fabulous as the first, so I'm very pleased that we did it.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

aea6574 said:


> Howdy Again All:
> 
> Thanks again for the discussion.
> 
> ...


What was her answer when you asked her why she wasn't registering the litter? Perhaps you should heed your gut, run, and just find another breeder.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Starsmom said:


> What was her answer when you asked her why she wasn't registering the litter? Perhaps you should heed your gut, run, and just find another breeder.


The OP said she hadn't asked the breeder yet. And her gut wanted to go pick up the pup :thumbsup:


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## aea6574 (Feb 18, 2006)

Starsmom said:


> What was her answer when you asked her why she wasn't registering the litter? Perhaps you should heed your gut, run, and just find another breeder.





bellaratamaltese said:


> The OP said she hadn't asked the breeder yet. And her gut wanted to go pick up the pup :thumbsup:


Thanks for pointing out my original statement, that was a crazy way to quote me :huh:

I emailed the breeder and here is the reply I got which sounds fine to me-

I bred Niknik and Rowdy.... hoping to get a girl as I will need one for my breeding program...but there were a few traits I also wanted in this girl... small to med size bone. The mom is 7 lbs and I like that she can whelp puppies very easy so was hoping for a little longer back plus all the other things breeders look for in brood bitches. If there had been a girl I would have registered the litter. But the boys are all heavy boned and not wheat I would use for a stud dog. as males for stud need to be the closest to standard as possible and fine to med boned.  I am in good standing with the AKC. They were here about 6 -6 months ago and gave me "Well within guidelines" and "more than substantial" on my paperwork cleanliness and care. When this litter came out all boys and I knew the bone was heavy I decided not to register them b/c I have many people who say they don't care about the papers and just want a pet. 
Rowdy is 7 years old in May he will be 8...and Niknik is 4There is no problem with their age. He has been heart certified and is part of my original breeding stock. As for too many breeding. She has been bred once a year. 
AKC doesn't care how many litters you have.... they are a registry ... if that were the case puppy mills would not produce the litters they do each year and get AKC papers. The concern is purebred dogs, and DNA. That the dogs in the lineage is who the breeder says they are. Both parents are registered, and Rowdy does have DNA #. I see know reason to register the litter. The puppies are probably going to top out at 6-7 lbs. And I know I will not be able to sell them to any show homes. 
I will not do as some breeders.... they will register only the puppies they feel are potential show puppies....and sell the rest. If I am going to register a litter it will be the whole litter not just one or two. 
So if there had been a girl in the litter....the whole litter would have been registered. 
I hope this explains things a little. all breeders activity with AKC works like this when it comes to litters. Breeders that have 1, 2 maybe 3 litters a year...will only be visited maybe every 3-4 years. 3-5 litters it is random selection 6-7 and over in a year is an annually inspection by AKC. I don't care if they come every day...I know I am in good standing and my dogs are healthy and well cared for. 
Does this help you understand my decision? 
Your forum information is not entirely true nor is it entirely false. The very same AKC registry papers are given to puppy mills, pet store breeders, as they are to other breeders ie:backyard breeders, show, agility, field breeders, law enforcement and to breeders who breed for guide and assistance dogs. The linking thread is AKC sanctioned events such as Conformation Showing requires the registery in order to enter. Now even mixed breeds can participate in events sanctioned only for the mised breed. Conformation of course is not one of them. But these people who have mixed breeds, and are "designing dog breeds" are also paying for some sort of fee .... to me registries are money oriented as with most things...but AKC used to pride themselves on purebred dogs. .... and they seem to passing up the mission to pick up dollars. The one thing I do think is good about it....is more people who want to have fun with their pet in events will build a better bonding and understanding of companion animals. 
I hope this helps you out.

Sounds good to me.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

This breeder doesn't show their dogs? I don't understand her point about only registering one or two in a litter - it's the same price to register all the puppies in a litter vs. just a few. Glad she got back to you on this!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

bellaratamaltese said:


> This breeder doesn't show their dogs? I don't understand her point about only registering one or two in a litter - it's the same price to register all the puppies in a litter vs. just a few. Glad she got back to you on this!



It's only $25 anyway, isn't it? I don't know what she sells her puppies for, but I can't imagine not spending $25 to register the litter if they are eligible.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I've read the post from the breeder about 5 times, and I truly don't understand what he/she is saying.

I have known a handful of show breeders that would only register the show puppies in the litter in order to claim that "all of the puppies born in this litter finished their championships". So they were claim only 2 live births when in fact the litter had 4 live puppies, as an example. 

Stacy -- I didn't see where the breeder said that he/she didn't show -- just that these puppies weren't good candidates for show homes. Did I miss something?


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## aea6574 (Feb 18, 2006)

Howdy All:

I hope you are doing great.

Sorry to stir things up as it were. Especially when I am looking at the boy from the litter she is registering. 

Yes, she has a few dogs that she does show.

And I believe she is doing her best for breeding, for the dogs, for her customers and for herself too.

Best regards, tony


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Have you seen the pedigree to this puppy? 
I don't quite understand her email to you, but what I was thinking is maybe her female was accidently bred to two males and she cannot register the litter without the expense of DNA testing of them (pups and dad). Otherwise, it would make absolutely no sense to not register them since she would, most likely, make more money selling them with papers.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

There is something very fishy in that email. Nothing in there speaks to a "GOOD" reason for not registering. Nothing in there explains her "TRUE" reason for not registering.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Lacie's Mom said:


> I've read the post from the breeder about 5 times, and I truly don't understand what he/she is saying.
> 
> I have known a handful of show breeders that would only register the show puppies in the litter in order to claim that "all of the puppies born in this litter finished their championships". So they were claim only 2 live births when in fact the litter had 4 live puppies, as an example.
> 
> Stacy -- I didn't see where the breeder said that he/she didn't show -- just that these puppies weren't good candidates for show homes. Did I miss something?


Oh wow, that really happens, only registering the ones they are going to show? I had no idea!

And I probably jumped to conclusions about showing, which I shouldn't have done. The breeder stated they had wanted a brood bitch from this litter and I took it the wrong way. 

this is what happens though when somebody shares 'private' business with the forum - incorrect conclusions are drawn and it's not always fair to the breeders. I definitely understand wanting clarification though!


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm not going to get into a whizzing contest here by reposting quotes...this not registering the litter thing just doesn't get for me. I know if I were in this situation I'd be breeder shopping. :huh:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> Tony, if I recall, your Bacchus died of kidney failure when he was only four years old. Most likely that was genetic and was the breeder's fault.
> 
> I personally would not buy a puppy from the same breeder.


Oh dear heavens, that is what my Tina Marie passed from at age 7. And she was from the nicest home breeder (byb), such a nice lady. BUT when I called after the passing of Tina Marie, and that she passed from kidney failure, her response was, "Oh I am so sorry, I know how you feel, that's what all mine passed away from. That's what Tina's Mom passed away from . The breeder just didn't make the connection I guess, it was in the health lines, and quite honestly, as nice as she was, I now know she shouldn't be breeding.

Oh I know what you mean about someone breeding dogs, and being so nice and all of that, but do you really want to experience another heartbreak again . 

I don't know anything about AKC registration, but the folks here have given you a great deal of wonderful advice.

Please try and not think with your heart.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm glad that you went to you back to your breeder to ask why the litter isn't being registered. But her answer that you quoted causes me some concern and I disagree with some of her statements. As a breeder I'm not looking to produce brood bitches, I'm looking to produce dogs who meet the standard and who, when bred, hopefully would produce puppies that maintain excellence in our breed. Your breeder's statements imply, at least the way I'm reading them, that she is looking to produce "producers" rather than produce dogs who can be shown to prove that they meet the standard. I disagree with her big girl/small boy method of breeding. Each parent contributes equally to the genetic makeup of the offspring. Genes don't blend ... breeding a long muzzle to a short muzzle is not going to produce a medium muzzle. Some of the offspring will have long muzzles and some will have short muzzles. The same applies to length of back, density of bone, overall size, length of back, etc. I'm also confused about the reasons why this litter will not be registered. Yes, the AKC is a dog registry and they do charge for registering litters and individual dogs. The breeder only pays for the litter registration (approx. $25) and the individual dog registration only for the dogs from that litter that she chooses to keep. Why would any breeder not want to spend $25 to register a litter when selling AKC registered puppies commands a much higher selling price than selling unregistered puppies ever would? Since she implies that she owns both the sire and the dam there would be no issue with getting the necessary signoffs on the litter registration form. It appears that for reasons known only to the breeder, she does not want the AKC to know that this litter exists. And that would be a real cause for concern if I was the potential buyer. And she says "all breeders activity with AKC works like this when it comes to litters." This is not a routine practice for all breeders. I, for one, have always registered my litters. Just some food for thought ...


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

MaryH said:


> I'm glad that you went to you back to your breeder to ask why the litter isn't being registered. But her answer that you quoted causes me some concern and I disagree with some of her statements. As a breeder I'm not looking to produce brood bitches, I'm looking to produce dogs who meet the standard and who, when bred, hopefully would produce puppies that maintain excellence in our breed. Your breeder's statements imply, at least the way I'm reading them, that she is looking to produce "producers" rather than produce dogs who can be shown to prove that they meet the standard. I disagree with her big girl/small boy method of breeding. Each parent contributes equally to the genetic makeup of the offspring. Genes don't blend ... breeding a long muzzle to a short muzzle is not going to produce a medium muzzle. Some of the offspring will have long muzzles and some will have short muzzles. The same applies to length of back, density of bone, overall size, length of back, etc. I'm also confused about the reasons why this litter will not be registered. Yes, the AKC is a dog registry and they do charge for registering litters and individual dogs. The breeder only pays for the litter registration (approx. $25) and the individual dog registration only for the dogs from that litter that she chooses to keep. Why would any breeder not want to spend $25 to register a litter when selling AKC registered puppies commands a much higher selling price than selling unregistered puppies ever would? Since she implies that she owns both the sire and the dam there would be no issue with getting the necessary signoffs on the litter registration form. It appears that for reasons known only to the breeder, she does not want the AKC to know that this litter exists. And that would be a real cause for concern if I was the potential buyer. And she says "all breeders activity with AKC works like this when it comes to litters." This is not a routine practice for all breeders. I, for one, have always registered my litters. Just some food for thought ...


:goodpost:

Very well written. I hope that this thread helps potential puppy buyers to see and understand the red flags that raise concerns.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> I'm glad that you went to you back to your breeder to ask why the litter isn't being registered. But her answer that you quoted causes me some concern and I disagree with some of her statements. As a breeder I'm not looking to produce brood bitches, I'm looking to produce dogs who meet the standard and who, when bred, hopefully would produce puppies that maintain excellence in our breed. Your breeder's statements imply, at least the way I'm reading them, that she is looking to produce "producers" rather than produce dogs who can be shown to prove that they meet the standard. I disagree with her big girl/small boy method of breeding. Each parent contributes equally to the genetic makeup of the offspring. Genes don't blend ... breeding a long muzzle to a short muzzle is not going to produce a medium muzzle. Some of the offspring will have long muzzles and some will have short muzzles. The same applies to length of back, density of bone, overall size, length of back, etc. I'm also confused about the reasons why this litter will not be registered. Yes, the AKC is a dog registry and they do charge for registering litters and individual dogs. The breeder only pays for the litter registration (approx. $25) and the individual dog registration only for the dogs from that litter that she chooses to keep. Why would any breeder not want to spend $25 to register a litter when selling AKC registered puppies commands a much higher selling price than selling unregistered puppies ever would? Since she implies that she owns both the sire and the dam there would be no issue with getting the necessary signoffs on the litter registration form. It appears that for reasons known only to the breeder, she does not want the AKC to know that this litter exists. And that would be a real cause for concern if I was the potential buyer. And she says "all breeders activity with AKC works like this when it comes to litters." This is not a routine practice for all breeders. I, for one, have always registered my litters. Just some food for thought ...


Great informative post. Thanks Mary.


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