# Finnegan is having Liver shunt surgery



## bebybeck (Apr 22, 2010)

Finnegan, my almost 6 month old fluff is having liver shunt surgery next monday. Has anyone else had experiance with a congenital liver shunt? He is acting so normal and active, I have been in denial that this little 2.6 pound baby is having major surgery in a week. Please send positive thoughts his way over the next few weeks. And any experiance that you can share would be great.


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

I know absolutely nothing, but I want to send you good wishes on your baby's surgery. I'm so sorry this is happening. :-(


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

omg, i am so sorry little finnegan is having to have such a major surgery at such a young age! how was his liver shunt diagnosed? where are you having the surgery done? have you let the breeder know about this yet?

there are other people on this forum with a lot of knowledge of liver shunts and can give you more information, but i do want to wish you and little finn the best.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Sending prayers and positive thoughts for you precious baby.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I wish you the best for a good outcome and a speedy recovery.


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## bonsmom (Feb 22, 2010)

B,
Finn has been on my mind.
I have no first hand experience with liver shunt, but a friend's dog did have the operation as a young pup and is living a normal, happy life!
He is going into the operation feeling fairly well, we can hope that he will come away with perfect health.
I will be praying for Finn and your family.
Please keep us updated.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Lots of prayers and good luck wishes are heading your way for you and Finnegan.
xoxoxoxooxox


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I'm sorry that your Finnegan is having to have the shunt surgery. I just wanted to ask if you had gotten a second opinion? I don't know anything about it, but have heard that bile acids can be slightly higher but normal for Maltese. 

Good luck with Finnegan's treatment. Please keep us updated on his situation.


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## bebybeck (Apr 22, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the kind thoughts. Thats what I love about the sm board. Such warm fluff lovers. Two answer a few questions that were brought up, we found out he had a shunt after a visit/stay at the emergency vet. He was drooling and acting lathargic, and when I went to check him for an injury he cried with pain so I took him right to the er vet. We didn't know if he had a head injury or seizers or what was going on. The vet ran blood work, x-ray, bile acid test... Needless to say the numbers came back high. My vet retested after his ER hospital stay and the numbers were high again. My Vet sent us to a specialist in Chicago area burbs. Great place!!! They did an ultra sound and found the shunt.
My breeder has been notified.


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

i hope finnegan has easy time during his surgery , i hv no idea what a liver shunt is but i will be praying for ur lil baby !


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

good luck in the surgery! I hope he has a fast recovery. xoxo


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

tamizami said:


> omg, i am so sorry little finnegan is having to have such a major surgery at such a young age! how was his liver shunt diagnosed? where are you having the surgery done? have you let the breeder know about this yet?
> 
> there are other people on this forum with a lot of knowledge of liver shunts and can give you more information, but i do want to wish you and little finn the best.


:thumbsup: I am so sorry, please let us know a day or to before his surgery and we will have a prayer cahin going


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

YES, we had this surgery for our little Kirby about 18 yrs. ago when not too many were doing it. He was born in Austria & I finally took him to the US for diagnosis at a Colorado Vet. school. He had the surgery in Austria & it was very successful (he had been given about l yr. to live beforehand). The problem was that he started having seizures shortly afterward. We put him on phenabarb & he lived a long and mostly healthy life to everyone's astonishment! He was small but was convinced he was a rotweiler in a maltese suit! :Sunny Smile:
I will be thinking of you both! Post ASAP about his surgery! Prayers for you!


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## dex'smom (Jan 11, 2009)

best of luck with Finn's surgery please keep us posted


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I certainly hope your breeder covers all expenses.
With LS it is usually manifest as a puppy if it's severe enough for surgery. 
On a lighter note, when I saw his name all I could think of was the tune Finnegan, begin again. LOL Hugs to your little guy.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Best wishes for a super successful surgery, little Finnegan... will be sending out many positive thoughts and prayers xoxox


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Oh my goodness! how scary. Best wishes for the surgery you must be so worried :grouphug: 

I am seeing that Finnegan is an Angel and is Lola's half brother. I hope that Bonnie is well in the loop and supportive in all this.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

This is a serious operation. I'm sorry your tiny pup has to have it. I hope all goes well, I don't know a lot about it, but my friends's dog has had it. He's ok, but still lives with MVD and must eat special food and extra suppliments.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm so sorry.  I'll be keeping both you and your fluff in my thoughts. Please keep us updated!


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Be assured your little Finn will be kept in my prayers that all goes very well!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

bebybeck said:


> Thanks everyone for the kind thoughts. Thats what I love about the sm board. Such warm fluff lovers. Two answer a few questions that were brought up, we found out he had a shunt after a visit/stay at the emergency vet. He was drooling and acting lathargic, and when I went to check him for an injury he cried with pain so I took him right to the er vet. We didn't know if he had a head injury or seizers or what was going on. The vet ran blood work, x-ray, bile acid test... Needless to say the numbers came back high. My vet retested after his ER hospital stay and the numbers were high again. My Vet sent us to a specialist in Chicago area burbs. Great place!!! They did an ultra sound and found the shunt.
> My breeder has been notified.


Dr. Center has been recommending for years that all puppies have a bile acids test before going to their new homes. If all breeders were doing this routinely, it would save new owners a lot of heartache and expense.

*2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes**. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). *

Dr. Center has recently revised her protocol and now recommends a BAT be done at 16 weeks and again at six months.

http://www.ytca.org/health_CenterQuestionsExpress2010.pdf


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

I hope Finnegan goes through surgery well and they are able to do what is needed.

Before I had London & Preston I had a 1yr old named Benson that had a liver shunt. He was on daily medication for it and suddenly it stopped working and he passed away. He got too sick too quick for surgery. Benson was from a puppymill/backyard breeder, which I did not know about at the time.

Keep us updated on how he does.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Oh sweetie. I'm so sorry. This must be so hard on you. Finnegan is such a beautiful little doll. I don't know much about liver shunts other than what I've read here but am encouraged by posts of successes. We're here for you and sending thoughts and prayers. :grouphug: I wish there was more we could do.But I must say, Finnegan looks like he has a little Irish fighting spirit in him so I'm thinking he'll be fine. Here's a little 4-leaf clover for good luck :Good luck: Please keep us posted and I'm happy that you like the docs.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> Dr. Center has been recommending for years that all puppies have a bile acids test before going to their new homes. If all breeders were doing this routinely, it would save new owners a lot of heartache and expense.
> 
> *2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes**. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). *
> 
> ...


While that's all well and good, most pups are sold at three months, not four months. Something has to give here. The AMA needs to adjust the age if we are ever to get a grip on this awful disease.


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## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

So sorry to hear Finnigan has a liver shunt. Please keep us informed!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Cosy said:


> While that's all well and good, most pups are sold at three months, not four months. Something has to give here. The AMA needs to adjust the age if we are ever to get a grip on this awful disease.


If you read MaryH's posts on the subject, she has all her puppies bile acid tested before they go to their new homes, even if that is 12 weeks. 

See post #5:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-...liver-shunt-should-parents-spay-neutered.html

Dr. Center has always stressed that BAT's be done before the puppy is adopted into their new home, although the ideal age has varied over the years. Perhaps that is why she now recommends at second BAT at six months?

*At present we recommend that all Cairn puppies undergo paired bile acid tests before they are adopted into homes (15 weeks or so). *

PSVA and MVD Research Summary


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## SugarBob62 (Nov 9, 2009)

Good luck Finnegan with the surgery! That is crazy, so young to have that??? Not exactly sure what it is...but does it have to do with him being small?? He'll be in my thoughts on Monday!

P.S. I LOVE the name, that was on one of my baby list names I was making for Nelson :wub:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

SugarBob62 said:


> Good luck Finnegan with the surgery! That is crazy, so young to have that??? Not exactly sure what it is...but does it have to do with him being small?? He'll be in my thoughts on Monday!
> 
> P.S. I LOVE the name, that was on one of my baby list names I was making for Nelson :wub:


Age has nothing to do with it since liver shunts are congenital. They are born with them. Small stature can be a symptom of a shunt.

Here is a great article from the U of Tennessee:

Portosystemic Shunts FAQ


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Ladysmom said:


> Age has nothing to do with it since liver shunts are congenital. They are born with them. Small stature can be a symptom of a shunt.
> 
> Here is a great article from the U of Tennessee:
> 
> Portosystemic Shunts FAQ


Marj - what an informative article. Wondering whether it can be pinned on SM. It's so detailed and pretty much in layman's terms. Thanks!


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> If you read MaryH's posts on the subject, she has all her puppies bile acid tested before they go to their new homes, even if that is 12 weeks.
> 
> See post #5:
> 
> ...


But if they say the testing is best given at or about 16 weeks, how are breeders to do that if they are selling them at 12 weeks?


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Cosy said:


> But if they say the testing is best given at or about 16 weeks, how are breeders to do that if they are selling them at 12 weeks?



Good question. I await the answer.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Good question. I await the answer.


We have had other breeders besides MaryH speak about doing BAT's at 12 weeks in the past.

****Bile Acids (blood test) - initially done at 12 weeks can be followed up by Protein C test - rerun as an adult*

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-...4-question-about-genetics-13.html#post1378483


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> Dr. Center has been recommending for years that all puppies have a bile acids test before going to their new homes. If all breeders were doing this routinely, it would save new owners a lot of heartache and expense.
> 
> *2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes**. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). *
> 
> ...





Cosy said:


> While that's all well and good, most pups are sold at three months, not four months. Something has to give here. The AMA needs to adjust the age if we are ever to get a grip on this awful disease.


We all need to remember before putting out certain info that we should know the context in which the advice was given. The better time to run a bile acid test is when the puppy is a bit older, at or after 16 wks. But we have also been advised that testing a younger puppy, say at 12 wks., is better than not testing at all. The advice about testing again at 6 mos. or after was advice given to BREEDERS regarding dogs that they are considering keeping for BREEDING PURPOSES. This was never meant for puppies who were tested at an appropriate age and placed on a spay/neuter contract.

AMA cannot mandate testing, let alone the timing for it. I do keep my puppies until they are 16 wks. old and I do bile acid test all of them before they leave my house. THAT MAKES ME A BIT OF A CONTROL FREAK BUT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAKE ME A BETTER BREEDER THAN SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT TEST THEIR PUPPIES. I don't have the benefit of 20 years' worth of breeding experience behind me so I cannot say "I've bred for X years and have never produced a shunt." I am relatively new to breeding, I don't have the luxury of several generations of related dogs to work with, so consequently I use the only tool I have available to me ... the bile acid test. I know and highly respect certain breeders who do not test every puppy. But they DO test all of their breeding stock, they have been breeding for years, and they will absolutely test a puppy if the purchaser wants the puppy tested before the purchase takes place. Responsibility is a two-way street, especially here on this forum where there is probably more good breed-specific info on liver issues than you will find anywhere else on the internet. Buyers as much as breeders should be wanting bile acid testing done on their potential new bundle of joy.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Ladysmom said:


> If you read MaryH's posts on the subject, she has all her puppies bile acid tested before they go to their new homes, even if that is 12 weeks.
> 
> See post #5:
> 
> ...





Cosy said:


> But if they say the testing is best given at or about 16 weeks, how are breeders to do that if they are selling them at 12 weeks?


Her age recommendation has varied by a few weeks over the years, but I believe her recommendation that puppies in affected breeds like Maltese have a bile acids test before going to their new homes has remained consistent. 

Since she now recommends a second BAT at six months, it would act as a failsafe.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

It's absolutely amazing the number of metabolic/genetic screening tests which are available now. 

The School of Veterinary Medicine at University of Pennsylvania does urine metabolic screening for portosystemic shunts. It's part of their "Metabolic Genetic Disease Screening Program".

It's not a "definite diagnosis" type of test like scintigraphy, but it's used as a screening tool. I don't have any idea what age dogs/puppies can be tested.

Here's a link to their brochure:

http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/media/MetabolicPamphlet08.pdf



Joy


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Joy,

Urine bile acids are readily available from most veterinary laboratories. It is a urine sample taken 5-6 hours after a meal. Its a good test, but the paired bile acids are still the standard, especially with a breed like ours that has such a high incidence of mvd/shunts. Even Dr. Center who published on urine bile acids still recommends the blood test.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> Dr. Center has been recommending for years that all puppies have a bile acids test before going to their new homes. If all breeders were doing this routinely, it would save new owners a lot of heartache and expense.
> 
> *2: The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes**. Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). *
> 
> ...


AMA can mandate pups not be sold under 16 weeks just as they now do at 12 weeks. They can also highly suggest testing before selling.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Cosy said:


> AMA can mandate pups not be sold under 16 weeks just as they now do at 12 weeks. They can also highly suggest testing before selling.


The AMA already does recommend testing puppies before they go to their new homes.

*It is also recommended that all puppies have a TSBA test done (at 4 months of age) before going to their new homes to establish a bile acid baseline.*

American Maltese Association Health Information


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Then they need to change the wording about 12 weeks, don't they.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Cosy said:


> AMA can mandate pups not be sold under 16 weeks just as they now do at 12 weeks. They can also highly suggest testing before selling.


The AMA can only mandate what the members say they can mandate because it's the members who have the greatest say in all policies involving the club. And most of the members are breeders. Telling breeders that they have to keep puppies until 16 weeks still doesn't guarantee that the breeders will bile acid test the puppies. Testing puppies at 12 wks old is still going to give a pretty good indication of what the liver function is. There's a flip side to the argument, too. There is a whole lot of the pet buying population that thinks that 16 wks. is too old. So what's better ... keeping puppies to 16 wks., maybe testing or maybe not, and having more of the pet buying population going to petstores or internet sites to buy the young puppies that they want or test the puppy at 12 weeks? There are no easy answers. I believe that it's better to educate than to dictate ... for the sake of the breeders, the buyers, and most especially the dogs.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Mary, yes, ideally, but evidently breeders are not testing or ignoring or something! Something has to give here. Education is key, I agree, but if you can't educate the breeders to do the right thing, then how can you expect the general pet population to do it?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Cosy said:


> Mary, yes, ideally, but evidently breeders are not testing or ignoring or something! Something has to give here. Education is key, I agree, but if you can't educate the breeders to do the right thing, then how can you expect the general pet population to do it?


Not all breeders are ignoring available testing. I know of breeders who are testing their breeding stock and their puppies, some at 16 wks, some at a point in time between 12 and 16 wks, some at the request of the buyer. Why should the burden be placed on the AMA to make breeders do certain things? What disappoints me as much as breeders not testing is buyers not asking for a pup to be tested. Day in and day out there are posts on this forum recommending one breeder or another. I honestly cannot remember the last time I read a post from someone saying "I had a great experience with [Breeder X], got a lovely puppy, the size I wanted, the look I wanted AND bile acids test results, too." And in at least a couple of recent threads when a legitimate issue was raised and a breeder name given, all of a sudden the thread disappeared or was completely sanitized. So maybe you're right, Brit, that certain things must be mandated because with the recent sanitization that has taken place, much of what is being put out on this forum for the sake of educating, at least about breeders, is becoming very one-sided.


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## HaleysMom (Jun 4, 2009)

Wanted to let you know that Finnegan is in my thought and prayers!


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

MaryH said:


> Not all breeders are ignoring available testing. I know of breeders who are testing their breeding stock and their puppies, some at 16 wks, some at a point in time between 12 and 16 wks, some at the request of the buyer. Why should the burden be placed on the AMA to make breeders do certain things? What disappoints me as much as breeders not testing is buyers not asking for a pup to be tested. Day in and day out there are posts on this forum recommending one breeder or another. I honestly cannot remember the last time I read a post from someone saying "I had a great experience with [Breeder X], got a lovely puppy, the size I wanted, the look I wanted AND bile acids test results, too." And in at least a couple of recent threads when a legitimate issue was raised and a breeder name given, all of a sudden the thread disappeared or was completely sanitized. So maybe you're right, Brit, that certain things must be mandated because with the recent sanitization that has taken place, much of what is being put out on this forum for the sake of educating, at least about breeders, is becoming very one-sided.


 I think it's because most don't know about testing until after they buy...or they think so and so has a dog from them so it must be okay. It's never okay. It's our money and heartache so we have to keep learning and demanding testing. If we wait until the dog is in our home it's too late. We're in love and that's that.


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## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

I'm really sorry to hear about Finnegan's surgery. I know this must be so hard for you. I hope the surgery goes well and he has a fast recovery. Please keep us posted.
Hugs and prayers for Finnegan.
:grouphug:


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## heartmadeforyou (May 16, 2009)

I will keep wee Finnegan in my prayers. Such a tough thing for a little one to go through. Hang in there, mama!


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

MaryH said:


> Why should the burden be placed on the AMA to make breeders do certain things? What disappoints me as much as breeders not testing is buyers not asking for a pup to be tested.


 
The AMA already has guidlines in place. Are they "making" members follow these guidlines? I'm, actually, curious. I was under the impression the rules, of the AMA, needed to be followed, in order to be a member. Why would that be a burden? It's simply following the rules. There is no burden, in my eyes. Just a matter of denial of membership. Why not add one more, very important rule? Just thinking out loud, here. 

And honestly, how many new folks know about the "testing"? Breeders know better. That's what upsets me, breeders are well aware of this, yet the general population is not. So we continue to educate the millions in this world. It will take some time, I must say, but we will get there. 

I agree with Brit. We need to spread the word, and demand testing. I feel badly for those who are not aware, and end up with heartache. I've been thru so much with my kids. So many surgeries. Worried, to the point of puking. Although mine are rescues, the feeling doesn't change.

I know we've gotten off topic here, and I'm sorry to the OP.

Please know we love you, and Finnegan is so in our prayers. So are you.

All our love,

Deb, Jops, Frankie, LBB, Tommy, Coby, Raul, Sugar, and Rex


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

3Maltmom said:


> The AMA already has guidlines in place. Are they "making" members follow these guidlines? I'm, actually, curious. I was under the impression the rules, of the AMA, needed to be followed, in order to be a member. Why would that be a burden? It's simply following the rules. There is no burden, in my eyes. Just a matter of denial of membership. Why not add one more, very important rule? Just thinking out loud, here.
> 
> And honestly, how many new folks know about the "testing"? Breeders know better. That's what upsets me, *breeders are well aware of this*, yet the general population is not. So we continue to educate the millions in this world. It will take some time, I must say, but we will get there.
> 
> ...


My thoughts and prayers are with Finnegan as well. rayer:

And perhaps we should move a discussion of what requirements AMA has the ability to impose to another thread. 

However, just to address this point: AMA is a body of membership. It only has the power to do what the membership supports doing. Adding additional requirements for membership to the code of ethics for instance would require the vote of the membership at large. And this is where a problem comes in. Many breeders are *not* as you say *well aware * of the usefulness of testing. Frankly, the genetic issues of liver shunts are not simple. When the experts talk about it being presumed to be a poly-genetic trait with incomplete penetrance--that is frankly confusing to the average person and to the average breeder (most of whom are not geneticists). Then there is the issue some breeders have with opening the "can of worms." The numbers say that 75-80% of the breed has elevated bile acid numbers, but for most it is a case of MVD that will never make the dog sick. However, if you test and you then disclose the results of a high test to the puppy buyers, some breeders will fear that an uneducated buyer will move on to someone who does not have a dog with elevated bile acids (or more likely someone who doesn't know what they have because they haven't done the tests). 

The AMA health committee (with the help of dedicated people like MaryH) has recently done more to help get the information out there. Hopefully, their hard work is going to help breeders make informed decisions about testing. But AMA is not a policing agency. It is a club. Like this group here on SM it is a collection of members who care about the breed. 

I think AMA and SM both have a responsibility. The AMA as a group needs to focus on getting information out to members about health issues that are a threat to our breed and what can be done about them. They are doing just that. SM equally (as a community of members) has the same kind of responsibility to educate pet owners about what they can do to play a part in protecting our beloved dogs from such health threats. We thankfully are also doing just that. 

Hopefully, working together we can all make a difference.:thumbsup:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Dear sweet Finnegan,

I just want to give you hugs and kisses, you are such an adorable precious little boy. Please know you and your Mommy are in our hearts and prayers.

Much love,
Christine


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Perhaps we could recommend that new pet owners get the pup bile acid tested in the first few days after getting the pup as part of the vet health check (if for some reason the breeder did not want to run the test)?!?

I know that getting the bile acid test was the first thing I did with Bijou when I got her back to the US. I had been on the forum for a year, had read the bile acid thread multiple times, and "knew better" by then.


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## bebybeck (Apr 22, 2010)

Live and Learn...I got Finny at 16 weeks but no Bile acid test had been done. If I had to start my search for a pup again (let's hope I don't)I would not get a pup without the bile acid test being done and any other tests/screenings that are available. At this point I might even be willing to cover the cost before bringing a pup home and falling in love. I would also recommend getting in writting what the breeder will/will not be financially responsible for if a medical issue does come up. Responsible breeder doesn't mean that they will pay your vet bills, just that they will replace your pup. And although the shunt is congenital it wasn't irresponsible breeding that caused it to show up so I don't blame my breeder at all. He was a spendy pup. Now he is the luxury model! lol I am lucky I have the resources to cover the expences, because in my younger life I would have had to put him down instead of having the surgery. 
So thanks so much for all the kind thoughts and I feel so supported even though I don't know you all. This forum is such a great place to hang out. Finny says hi (right now he is humping our Siamese Cat Murphy. Poor Murph!) and right now he is doing great.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

CloudClan said:


> My thoughts and prayers are with Finnegan as well. rayer:
> 
> And perhaps we should move a discussion of what requirements AMA has the ability to impose to another thread.
> 
> Many breeders are *not* as you say *well aware *of the usefulness of testing.


 
You're kidding, right? Reputable Breeders are NOT aware?

How could breeders, as members of the AMA, NOT be aware?

Perhaps it's not "law", but I would certainly think it's discussed within their meetings, emails, etc. 

Once again, I am sorry OP. Perhaps a new thread should be started. I know better. I'm just pissed about all the health issues. I'm sad for the owners, and the pups.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

3Maltmom said:


> You're kidding, right? Reputable Breeders are NOT aware?
> 
> How could breeders, as members of the AMA, NOT be aware?
> 
> ...


There isn't any aspect of liver shunt that anyone of us on this forum would kid about, Deb. And I know that you know that, too. How many meetings does AMA have? One a year. How many breeders attend? Not many. In comparison, do a search on this forum for "liver shunt" or "bile acid test" or "MVD" and take a look at how many posts come up. And then stop and think about the number of active, long-time, very intelligent SM members who have gotten puppies within the past years who HAVE NOT ASKED FOR OR GOTTEN A PUPPY THAT HAS BEEN BILE ACID TESTED. Start a new thread and maybe we can get some good back-and-forth about why breeders aren't testing and why buyers aren't asking for testing. There's enough "blame" to go around, let's not absolve anybody by piling it all on the AMA.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I'm with Deb on this one. The AMA clearly addresses the responsibility of breeders to screen for hereditary illnesses in its Code of Ethics:

2. I will keep alert for and endeavor to control or eradicate inherited problems that are particular to my breed. I will strive to screen my breeding stock for hereditary problems using the current available and generally accepted techniques.

American Maltese Association

Surely, first and foremost, a responsible breeder should abide by the parent club's code of ethics.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I spoke to almost the entire list of AMA breeders in looking for a puppy, and I don't recall any breeder saying they will automatically do the bile acid test for the puppy. So does that mean that there are almost no responsible breeders in the AMA? Surely not!? We as the puppy owners need to ask for this ourselves. Regardless of whether the AMA actually requires it or not (rather than just stating it as a principle in the code of ethics).


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

so I take it that the breeder isn't going to help with the costs. 

I understand that the guarantee is for them to replace the pup, but for them to replace the pup they would be out pretty much the cost of the pup and then have to deal with all the costs etc associated with the surgery. So all in all waaaaay more that just helping out with the surgery costs. So it makes sense to me for the breeder to offer to help. I had a friend who bought a retriever who had hip dysplasia, the breeder covered all costs. You didn't pay for a $500 special off craigslist, you paid for the security and breeding of a top quality pup. Offering to replace is a ridiculous situation for those kinds of issues. Obviously people fall in love with their pets and surely a responsible breeder would want that and encourage that by at least helping rather than replacing. :angry: 






bebybeck said:


> Live and Learn...I got Finny at 16 weeks but no Bile acid test had been done. If I had to start my search for a pup again (let's hope I don't)I would not get a pup without the bile acid test being done and any other tests/screenings that are available. At this point I might even be willing to cover the cost before bringing a pup home and falling in love. I would also recommend getting in writting what the breeder will/will not be financially responsible for if a medical issue does come up. Responsible breeder doesn't mean that they will pay your vet bills, just that they will replace your pup. And although the shunt is congenital it wasn't irresponsible breeding that caused it to show up so I don't blame my breeder at all. He was a spendy pup. Now he is the luxury model! lol I am lucky I have the resources to cover the expences, because in my younger life I would have had to put him down instead of having the surgery.
> So thanks so much for all the kind thoughts and I feel so supported even though I don't know you all. This forum is such a great place to hang out. Finny says hi (right now he is humping our Siamese Cat Murphy. Poor Murph!) and right now he is doing great.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Hope nobody minds, but can someone start a different thread on this very interesting topic, and let this thread be just for our love for dear sweet Finny. He's just too precious not to have his own special thread :wub: and his Mommy sounds like a sweetheart.

Just know Finny, we all love you and your are being kept so close in our hearts and prayers.

Again, I hope no one minds I brought this up, because I know on the health issue, all of you are speaking from your hearts and sharing your incredible knowledge and would make such an interesting thread and would do such a wonderful service.

So, if could get back to dear sweet Finny, who I have completely fell in love with, and maybe start a sepearte thread (if one has started already).

Bless all of you for caring and sharing and sweet kisses to Finny.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

3Maltmom said:


> You're kidding, right? Reputable Breeders are NOT aware?
> 
> How could breeders, as members of the AMA, NOT be aware?
> 
> ...


I agree with you that I am sad for the owners and for the pups. 

But I think you have a vision of what the AMA is that it really is not. There is no internet/email list for AMA members. There is ONE annual meeting. Most of the membership does not attend. Health and genetic seminars are just one part of that meeting and they do not focus on this one topic alone. There are also newsletters that a small portion of the membership reads. 

I am not absolving anyone of the responsibility. I am simply saying that we as pet owners should not presume the knowledge is widely shared among breeders or that the majority of breeders know more than we do about this health issue. 

Consider this, we here at this forum, have JUST AS MUCH information about Bile Acid tests as is available to breeders and we tend to discuss and share that information with a much greater frequency than breeders in AMA do. Yet, still I can assure you that many, if not most, of the well-informed and educated members of this forum did not ask for that test to be done before they brought their most recent pups home. 

I also think that we here on SM do not entirely understand what BA elevated results mean. We have seen confusing and misleading information given here. AMA members, just like the pet owning public, are not equal in their understanding of how the tests work and what they mean either. 

My point is, that the responsibility rests with us all (breeders and pet owners alike) to educate ourselves, help educate others and just get the information out there and to deal with this as an issue.

My suggestion: As a pet buyer, bile acid testing should be discussed with the breeder before purchasing the pup. If the breeder doesn't bring it up, then the buyer should. Breeder and buyer need to come up with a comfortable schedule for when how and what they plan to do if testing ultimately finds such a consequence as a shunt.

edited to add: sorry again to the OP and to Christine. I agree this should be about Finny. I posted this before I saw your post Christine.


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

I'll be praying for little Finnegan that the surgery goes well & he has a good recovery,as well as a happy healthy long life. rayer:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> I'm with Deb on this one. The AMA clearly addresses the responsibility of breeders to screen for hereditary illnesses in its Code of Ethics:
> 
> 2. I will keep alert for and endeavor to control or eradicate inherited problems that are particular to my breed. I will strive to screen my breeding stock for hereditary problems using the current available and generally accepted techniques.
> 
> ...


 
Anyone of the following would be in keeping with clause (2) above: 
(1) I have been breeding for 20 years, I am working with several generations of the same line, I have never produced a liver shunt. I will continue this practice because it works for me.
(2) I have been breeding for 20 years, I produced a liver shunt in the past, I now bile acid test all my breeding stock. I have not produced a shunt in years. I test some puppies, others I will test upon request.
(3) I am relatively new to breeding. I bile acid test everything that moves.

Again, can we stop piling blame in just one corner? And can we stop putting personal interpretation out as fact? Honestly, I can't wait to see what happens the next time a post appears saying "Does anyone have any info on breeder x?" Will anyone have the courage to say "Hey, make sure you get a [whatever] test done first as breeder x has had some recent [liver, patella, heart, kidney, autoimmune, etc.] issues with a puppy that he/she sold."


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Mary, why haven't you said that when you see someone getting a new pup? I'm sure even pet owners don't tell when something comes up with their pup. That has to stop too. 
As for sanitizing threads regarding breeders, that's been happening on here for years.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

There is such an informative dialogue going on here but it really needs not to be in Finnegan's thread. I started a new thread and hope you all will continue the discussion there. Maybe there is a way to copy and paste your posts in that thread, too ?? If the new thread gets going, I will ask Yung or Joe to pin it for us.
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-...106856-liver-shunt-bile-acid-test-thread.html


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## mary-anderson (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear about Finnegan. He will be in my
thoughts and prayers. Please keep us updated.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

3Maltmom said:


> You're kidding, right? Reputable Breeders are NOT aware?
> 
> How could breeders, as members of the AMA, NOT be aware?
> 
> ...



I just want to clarify: Not all ethical/reputable breeders are AMA members. Not all Maltese show breeders are on SM, or even read SM, or are on FB either. I'm not excusing them in any way, just trying to make a point here that the AMA doesn't play a huge role in every show Malt breeder's life.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Keeping Finn in my prayers.rayer:


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

Again, I want to tell you how sorry I am that your precious pup has to have this surgery. I'm aware who your breeder is, as you already know, and you stated on this thread that she knows, but what has she offered you? I know how much she loves her puppies and only wants to do right by them.


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