# Who feeds Orijen / Acana / Wellness Core?



## LJSquishy

I am *really* wanting to try Orijen, Acana, or Wellness Core foods on London & Preston ... I do *not* like the fact that the 1st ingredient in their NB Sweet Potato & Venison is not the meat source, and in general, it is said that I should be supplementing with additional meat. It has a low protein % and I've noticed that London's coat sheen and texture isn't as nice as it used to be -- I think this is related to the lower protein content.

I know this debate could go on for ages, but studies in more recent years have shown that a *high* protein and low carb diet is optimal for dogs, even small dogs. It's been shown that it does not cause or contribute to kidney failure or other problems. These foods tend to have a bit more fat in them than lower-quality foods...is the fat % too high?

What are your experiences (both positive and negative) while feeding Orijen, Acana grain-free, or Wellness Core? Every time I'm about to go purchase one of these, someone tells me to "be careful" or "watch out" -- Aren't they rated among the best dry dog foods *for a reason*? Orijen's White Paper article explained everything quite well to me, and I was so confident in purchasing a high protein food. Do I *really* need to proceed with caution??? I truly respect everyone's opinions here on SM and would appreciate more insight on this!

:confused1: Lisa


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## princessre

Orijen Fish is very good. I use it for traveling...I'm not aware of anything bad about it...Casanova likes Orijen much better than NB. But he doesn't like the Orijen Adult Formula with Chicken, only likes the Fish formula.


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## mysugarbears

QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Nov 10 2009, 10:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849558


> I am *really* wanting to try Orijen, Acana, or Wellness Core foods on London & Preston ... I do *not* like the fact that the 1st ingredient in their NB Sweet Potato & Venison is not the meat source, and in general, it is said that I should be supplementing with additional meat. It has a low protein % and I've noticed that London's coat sheen and texture isn't as nice as it used to be -- I think this is related to the lower protein content.
> 
> I know this debate could go on for ages, but studies in more recent years have shown that a *high* protein and low carb diet is optimal for dogs, even small dogs. It's been shown that it does not cause or contribute to kidney failure or other problems. These foods tend to have a bit more fat in them than lower-quality foods...is the fat % too high?
> 
> What are your experiences (both positive and negative) while feeding Orijen, Acana grain-free, or Wellness Core? Every time I'm about to go purchase one of these, someone tells me to "be careful" or "watch out" -- Aren't they rated among the best dry dog foods *for a reason*? Orijen's White Paper article explained everything quite well to me, and I was so confident in purchasing a high protein food. Do I *really* need to proceed with caution??? I truly respect everyone's opinions here on SM and would appreciate more insight on this!
> 
> :confused1: Lisa[/B]




Lisa, this is the basically the same reason i want to switch to either Acana or Wellness Core. I'm leaning more towards the Acana because i have one that is allergic to poultry and the Acana has two flavors that i can rotate with. Mine didn't do well with Orijen ( i think it was just too rich for them) and wanted something higher in protein but not as high as Orijen.


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## Canada

Acana, that is Canadian!  

Last week I picked up two trial sized bags of the Acana Grain Free. I am mixing it in with what the girls are currently eating, Actrium.
I even have a leaflet of info on the Acana with all the ingredients and nutrional info. There is a website on the cover of the leaflet:
Acana info

I am still learning about this brand, too. Just want to give my girls whatever is the best that I can find for them. I am still open to looking at other brands. The Actrium has been wonderful so far for their digestive systems, never a problem.


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## silverhaven

I got a little trial package of Wellness, Lola didn't seem to like it much. I just got her the Orijen 6 fish and she loves it. She seems to have allergies right now, so her eyes are streaming somewhat and she is scratching, but I think it is likely environment, (for me too)  I don't think it is the food.


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## princessre

QUOTE (Silverhaven @ Nov 10 2009, 02:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849618


> I got a little trial package of Wellness, Lola didn't seem to like it much. I just got her the Orijen 6 fish and she loves it. She seems to have allergies right now, so her eyes are streaming somewhat and she is scratching, but I think it is likely environment, (for me too)  I don't think it is the food.[/B]


Yeah, Casanova has never been willing to touch any Wellness...no matter what flavor or how hungry...


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## tamizami

I prefer a higher protein diet that is lower, relatively speaking, in fat. This is one of the main reasons I like Orijen and Acana. In addition to feeding them these foods, I also supplement with 100% meat treats (wild alaskan salmon, cod, lamb lung). I also homecook fish with sweet potatoes and 1 or 2 other veggies - usually 50% fish and 50% potato and veggies. My dogs love the food, weight is perfect, their coats and eyes are bright, teeth look good, bloodwork is great, they drink fresh water daily without excess or excessive urination. 

I don't think I would do this high of a protein diet with all red-meat. All protein is not the same, some is much easier to digest, some gives off a lot of ammonia, etc. I think the balance and health comes from combining the fish, eggs, lamb, and chicken. For this reason, I have no problem with a higher protein diet.


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## revakb2

I've been using NB and adding chopped boiled chicken to it. Lately, Bogie has been having loose stools. I'm guessing the change in the NB formula is the culprit. I just bought a bag of *Taste of the Wild* - high paririe formula roasted Bison and roasted Venison. It contains no grains. The owner of the boutique pet store recommended it.

Here is a quote from the manufacturer:

Roasted Bison & Venison - Found in our High Prairie Canine Formula. Lean meat, roasted for great flavor. These ingredients offer highly digestible protein to help your dog maintain the sleek condition of good health.

Since I haven't opened the bog yet, I have no idea if it going to be good for my two or not. I would love the find a kibble that is good for the dogs and one they will eat. Bogie would not eat Wellness or Origen. I have never tried Actrium.


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## camfan

You know, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in dogfoodanalysis.com. It used to be one of my favorite sites THEN it occured to me that it seems to ALL be based on how much protein is in the food. If protein is the #1 ingredient, etc. Seriously, that's all it's based on. For example, they rate Science Diet sensitive stomach and Eukanuba SS the lowest of the low and say if they could give SD zero stars they would. BECAUSE there is little to no protein in it. Um, well, that's because that's what's recommended for dogs that are having stomach issues. I thought that was a really ignorant statement and they lost credibility in my book after reading that.

MHO is that if our own vets and others with many years experience are saying to be careful, I'd be careful. It doesn't mean don't try it out, just proceede with caution. 

It can all be quite overwhelming, eh? Best of luck :grouphug:


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## LJSquishy

QUOTE (tamizami @ Nov 10 2009, 11:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849623


> I prefer a higher protein diet that is lower, relatively speaking, in fat. This is one of the main reasons I like Orijen and Acana. In addition to feeding them these foods, I also supplement with 100% meat treats (wild alaskan salmon, cod, lamb lung). I also homecook fish with sweet potatoes and 1 or 2 other veggies - usually 50% fish and 50% potato and veggies. My dogs love the food, weight is perfect, their coats and eyes are bright, teeth look good, bloodwork is great, they drink fresh water daily without excess or excessive urination.
> 
> I don't think I would do this high of a protein diet with all red-meat. All protein is not the same, some is much easier to digest, some gives off a lot of ammonia, etc. I think the balance and health comes from combining the fish, eggs, lamb, and chicken. For this reason, I have no problem with a higher protein diet.[/B]


It sounds like you have had a wonderful experience with a high protein - low carb - moderate fat diet! I agree that an all red meat protein probably would not be the best idea. I was going to either mix 50/50 Orijen 6 Fresh Fish and Orijen Regional Red, or rotate between them every other bag or every 2 weeks or something like that.

QUOTE (revakb2 @ Nov 10 2009, 11:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849626


> I've been using NB and adding chopped boiled chicken to it. Lately, Bogie has been having loose stools. I'm guessing the change in the NB formula is the culprit. I just bought a bag of *Taste of the Wild* - high paririe formula roasted Bison and roasted Venison. It contains no grains. The owner of the boutique pet store recommended it.
> 
> Here is a quote from the manufacturer:
> 
> Roasted Bison & Venison - Found in our High Prairie Canine Formula. Lean meat, roasted for great flavor. These ingredients offer highly digestible protein to help your dog maintain the sleek condition of good health.
> 
> Since I haven't opened the bog yet, I have no idea if it going to be good for my two or not. I would love the find a kibble that is good for the dogs and one they will eat. Bogie would not eat Wellness or Origen. I have never tried Actrium.[/B]


TotW is a great brand, and the High Prairie formula looks really good. Neither of them have a Chicken allergy do they? It does contain chicken meal I noticed. 

QUOTE (camfan @ Nov 10 2009, 12:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849634


> You know, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in dogfoodanalysis.com. It used to be one of my favorite sites THEN it occured to me that it seems to ALL be based on how much protein is in the food. If protein is the #1 ingredient, etc. Seriously, that's all it's based on. For example, they rate Science Diet sensitive stomach and Eukanuba SS the lowest of the low and say if they could give SD zero stars they would. BECAUSE there is little to no protein in it. Um, well, that's because that's what's recommended for dogs that are having stomach issues. I thought that was a really ignorant statement and they lost credibility in my book after reading that.
> 
> MHO is that if our own vets and others with many years experience are saying to be careful, I'd be careful. It doesn't mean don't try it out, just proceede with caution.
> 
> It can all be quite overwhelming, eh? Best of luck :grouphug:[/B]


Well, dogfoodanalysis.com is really only a starting point, of course. You have to make your own educated decision on what foods are best for your dogs. They don't base all of the ratings on just protein, they take everything into consideration. Science Diet and Eukanuba both ARE crappy foods -- foods like that contain almost nothing but low-quality fillers, which is why they are rated so low (on every review website)...but I agree with you that some dogs with special conditions NEED to have low calorie or other special foods to maintain their health and sometimes you do have to go with a food like Science Diet unless you choose to home cook. The Whole Dog Journal is also a great resource, and they rate Orijen very, very high as well.  But who knows, it might end up that London & Preston don't do well on such a high protein diet and I will have to search for something more moderate anyway! lol


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## Hunter's Mom

QUOTE (princessre @ Nov 10 2009, 02:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849621


> QUOTE (Silverhaven @ Nov 10 2009, 02:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849618





> I got a little trial package of Wellness, Lola didn't seem to like it much. I just got her the Orijen 6 fish and she loves it. She seems to have allergies right now, so her eyes are streaming somewhat and she is scratching, but I think it is likely environment, (for me too)  I don't think it is the food.[/B]


Yeah, Casanova has never been willing to touch any Wellness...no matter what flavor or how hungry...
[/B][/QUOTE]

We have tried to give Hunter wellness a few times but he simply refuses to even try it. I can't offer suggestions as to the other ones as we haven't tried them.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (tamizami @ Nov 10 2009, 02:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849623


> I prefer a higher protein diet that is lower, relatively speaking, in fat. This is one of the main reasons I like Orijen and Acana. In addition to feeding them these foods, I also supplement with 100% meat treats (wild alaskan salmon, cod, lamb lung). I also homecook fish with sweet potatoes and 1 or 2 other veggies - usually 50% fish and 50% potato and veggies. My dogs love the food, weight is perfect, their coats and eyes are bright, teeth look good, bloodwork is great, they drink fresh water daily without excess or excessive urination.
> 
> I don't think I would do this high of a protein diet with all red-meat. All protein is not the same, some is much easier to digest, some gives off a lot of ammonia, etc. I think the balance and health comes from combining the fish, eggs, lamb, and chicken. For this reason, I have no problem with a higher protein diet.[/B]


Tami, thank you for explaining this quite well. I'm so distracted with other things right now that I couldn't go into much detail here or in a couple of pm's I received about Acana/Orijen. IMO, the fat/protein content in Orijen and Acana grain-free seem balanced for most dogs.

I have to add one thing. Fresh grassfed local beef seems to suit Nikki well, and her bloodwork has been good. Perhaps it has less ammonia than grain-fed, I don't know? It does have Omega 3 fat. All dogs are different and Nikki does better on fish, grassfed beef and eggs than she does on lamb or chicken. 

I may get a bag of Orijen fish and mix it in with her home cooked food from time to time, just in case I am unable to cook for her or don't have anything suitable in the house for her if I get very busy or sick. 

You're a great mom, Tami!! Thanks for the info!


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## jmm

Every dog is an individual and should be treated as such. There is no one diet that is right for all dogs. So yes, if it is too much protein for your particular dog, it can be a problem. If it is not, your dog may thrive on the diet. Same for fat content, protein and carb sources, salt content, etc. I do feed 1 dog a prescription Hill's diet...and if you find the OTC food he can eat, bring it on 'cause I can't. IMO you should feed your dog the most appropriate food for them, not what one review or another says SHOULD be the best.


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## Nikki's Mom

I'd love to know why veterinarians caution against moderately higher protein/fat (good fat) kibble. 

Have they treated dogs with health issues due to higher protein foods? Do they cite independent studies or published papers? (Not published by commercial dog food companies or their minions.) I'd like to read up on the reasons. 

It seems like many dogs do much better on grain-free foods. My holistic vet frequently recommended them for dogs with skin issues and allergies, who were otherwise healthy.


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## camfan

QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Nov 10 2009, 03:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849642


> QUOTE (tamizami @ Nov 10 2009, 11:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849623





> I prefer a higher protein diet that is lower, relatively speaking, in fat. This is one of the main reasons I like Orijen and Acana. In addition to feeding them these foods, I also supplement with 100% meat treats (wild alaskan salmon, cod, lamb lung). I also homecook fish with sweet potatoes and 1 or 2 other veggies - usually 50% fish and 50% potato and veggies. My dogs love the food, weight is perfect, their coats and eyes are bright, teeth look good, bloodwork is great, they drink fresh water daily without excess or excessive urination.
> 
> I don't think I would do this high of a protein diet with all red-meat. All protein is not the same, some is much easier to digest, some gives off a lot of ammonia, etc. I think the balance and health comes from combining the fish, eggs, lamb, and chicken. For this reason, I have no problem with a higher protein diet.[/B]


It sounds like you have had a wonderful experience with a high protein - low carb - moderate fat diet! I agree that an all red meat protein probably would not be the best idea. I was going to either mix 50/50 Orijen 6 Fresh Fish and Orijen Regional Red, or rotate between them every other bag or every 2 weeks or something like that.

QUOTE (revakb2 @ Nov 10 2009, 11:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849626


> I've been using NB and adding chopped boiled chicken to it. Lately, Bogie has been having loose stools. I'm guessing the change in the NB formula is the culprit. I just bought a bag of *Taste of the Wild* - high paririe formula roasted Bison and roasted Venison. It contains no grains. The owner of the boutique pet store recommended it.
> 
> Here is a quote from the manufacturer:
> 
> Roasted Bison & Venison - Found in our High Prairie Canine Formula. Lean meat, roasted for great flavor. These ingredients offer highly digestible protein to help your dog maintain the sleek condition of good health.
> 
> Since I haven't opened the bog yet, I have no idea if it going to be good for my two or not. I would love the find a kibble that is good for the dogs and one they will eat. Bogie would not eat Wellness or Origen. I have never tried Actrium.[/B]


TotW is a great brand, and the High Prairie formula looks really good. Neither of them have a Chicken allergy do they? It does contain chicken meal I noticed. 

QUOTE (camfan @ Nov 10 2009, 12:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849634


> You know, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in dogfoodanalysis.com. It used to be one of my favorite sites THEN it occured to me that it seems to ALL be based on how much protein is in the food. If protein is the #1 ingredient, etc. Seriously, that's all it's based on. For example, they rate Science Diet sensitive stomach and Eukanuba SS the lowest of the low and say if they could give SD zero stars they would. BECAUSE there is little to no protein in it. Um, well, that's because that's what's recommended for dogs that are having stomach issues. I thought that was a really ignorant statement and they lost credibility in my book after reading that.
> 
> MHO is that if our own vets and others with many years experience are saying to be careful, I'd be careful. It doesn't mean don't try it out, just proceede with caution.
> 
> It can all be quite overwhelming, eh? Best of luck :grouphug:[/B]


Well, dogfoodanalysis.com is really only a starting point, of course. You have to make your own educated decision on what foods are best for your dogs. They don't base all of the ratings on just protein, they take everything into consideration. Science Diet and Eukanuba both ARE crappy foods -- foods like that contain almost nothing but low-quality fillers, which is why they are rated so low (on every review website)...but I agree with you that some dogs with special conditions NEED to have low calorie or other special foods to maintain their health and sometimes you do have to go with a food like Science Diet unless you choose to home cook. The Whole Dog Journal is also a great resource, and they rate Orijen very, very high as well.  But who knows, it might end up that London & Preston don't do well on such a high protein diet and I will have to search for something more moderate anyway! lol
[/B][/QUOTE]

well, that was my whole point--that what is considered "crap" to some of these review sites--I read no mention of them taking into account that it is a SPECIAL formula to aid in the healing of an ailment. They don't mention that at all. They only compare it to the ones high in protein and fault it for not being high in protein as their #1 complaint. 

I guess I just get very defensive when anything I've given my babies is refered to as crap. I like to think I'm a little more informed and intelligent than that.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (camfan @ Nov 10 2009, 03:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849634


> You know, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in dogfoodanalysis.com. It used to be one of my favorite sites THEN it occured to me that it seems to ALL be based on how much protein is in the food. If protein is the #1 ingredient, etc. Seriously, that's all it's based on. For example, they rate Science Diet sensitive stomach and Eukanuba SS the lowest of the low and say if they could give SD zero stars they would. BECAUSE there is little to no protein in it. Um, well, that's because that's what's recommended for dogs that are having stomach issues. I thought that was a really ignorant statement and they lost credibility in my book after reading that.
> 
> MHO is that if our own vets and others with many years experience are saying to be careful, I'd be careful. It doesn't mean don't try it out, just proceede with caution.
> 
> It can all be quite overwhelming, eh? Best of luck :grouphug:[/B]


You probably are right, but do they also consider the quality of the protein, and not just the amount? If one needs to feed a low-protein food for health reasons, fine, but what is the quality of the protein (and the other ingredients) that is in there? That's my concern with some of these companies. The quality of the food is very cheap, and yet people pay so much money for them. 

Nikki's first home-cooked recipe was an exact replica of the nutritional value of a lower protein prescription dog food, the one that a lot of people use for MVD dogs, but instead of poor quality ingredients, it had the best quality, yet it was lower in protein and had all the same nutrients.. Her bloodwork is now normal, so she is off that diet, which is good because it was a very time consuming recipe to prepare.

Know what I mean?


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## camfan

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 03:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849658


> QUOTE (camfan @ Nov 10 2009, 03:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849634





> You know, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in dogfoodanalysis.com. It used to be one of my favorite sites THEN it occured to me that it seems to ALL be based on how much protein is in the food. If protein is the #1 ingredient, etc. Seriously, that's all it's based on. For example, they rate Science Diet sensitive stomach and Eukanuba SS the lowest of the low and say if they could give SD zero stars they would. BECAUSE there is little to no protein in it. Um, well, that's because that's what's recommended for dogs that are having stomach issues. I thought that was a really ignorant statement and they lost credibility in my book after reading that.
> 
> MHO is that if our own vets and others with many years experience are saying to be careful, I'd be careful. It doesn't mean don't try it out, just proceede with caution.
> 
> It can all be quite overwhelming, eh? Best of luck :grouphug:[/B]


You probably are right, but do they also consider the quality of the protein, and not just the amount? If one needs to feed a low-protein food for health reasons, fine, but what is the quality of the protein (and the other ingredients) that is in there? That's my concern with some of these companies. The quality of the food is very cheap, and yet people pay so much money for them. 

Nikki's first home-cooked recipe was an exact replica of the nutritional value of a lower protein prescription dog food, the one that a lot of people use for MVD dogs, but instead of poor quality ingredients, it had the best quality, yet it was lower in protein and had all the same nutrients.. Her bloodwork is now normal, so she is off that diet, which is good because it was a very time consuming recipe to prepare.

Know what I mean?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I know EXACTLY what you mean--and totally agree. Another good point.

Personally, I don't trust a lot of these smaller companies that charge so much for who-knows-what. We all know that AAFCO (or whatever it is) is pretty loosey-goosey. From what I've read anyway. I'd rather feed Ollie a "crappy" commercial blend from a gigantic company that has all kinds of internal standards that are widely published OR make my own. Sorry, I just don't trust everyone in between--if I do have to put my trust in something, the more I know about them as a whole, at least, the better. Just makes sense.


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## nekkidfish

After spending many hours here reading about who uses what food, the Orijen Fish became my first choice for my boy when he gets here. Then last night I was talking with my breeder, and that is exactly what she feeds all her babies. She does also mix in chicken, beans, broccoli, etc. when she has time.

HUGz! Jules


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## jmm

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849652


> I'd love to know why veterinarians caution against moderately higher protein/fat (good fat) kibble.
> 
> Have they treated dogs with health issues due to higher protein foods? Do they cite independent studies or published papers? (Not published by commercial dog food companies or their minions.) I'd like to read up on the reasons.
> 
> It seems like many dogs do much better on grain-free foods. My holistic vet frequently recommended them for dogs with skin issues and allergies, who were otherwise healthy.[/B]



Define moderately higher? 

What I have seen is:
Fat dogs fed small breed, active, or grain free foods and see weight reduction on a lower fat diet
Dogs with severely lipemic serum, high cholesterol, triglycerides, other abnormalities due to the lipemia. Yes, I buy that perhaps our normals are not normal values for some dogs, but severe lipemia of the sample...I can't buy that's normal, especially on a fasted sample. 
I have discussed with a few vets fatty deposits in the eyes with high fat diets (btw, one of those high fat diets was a prescription veterinary diet, so it wasn't "out to get" grain free)
High end of normal renal values which resolved with diet change to a "normal" protein diet (22-26%, not a prescription low protein kidney diet)

At the practice I work out we do recommend grain free novel protein diets for dogs with allergies. We recommend canned grain free as maintenance diet for most cats (cats are carnivores), especially overweight cats. For dogs that come to us on rx weight loss foods and no joy, after medical work up, suggest grain free. For fat dogs on grain free, we recommend a lower fat diet. The pet store we recommend carries pretty good brands (Nature's Variety, California Natural, Innova, Origien). 

High protein/fat isn't inherently bad. It just isn't appropriate for all dogs and I have a problem when it is displayed as the only best food to feed or when people feel lesser for feeding another quality food that is not grain free. I don't feed it as it isn't right for my current dogs...doesn't make me a bad owner and it doesn't mean I'm compromising my dogs' nutrition.


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## cleooscar

I've been feeding the gang Orijen 6 Fish for dinner since the beginning of the summer. Pasha and Napoleon loves it. I have to watch that they don't overeat. I just started to introduce Acana Grasslands late last week. All 3 fluffs seem to like it. I was quite pleased to see that Raine (the picky one) actually asks for Acana (she doesn't care for Orijen and only eats NB Duck & Potato if she has to). Both Acana and Orijen are from the same manufacturer. The store lady highly recommends them both. If all goes well, I'll keep feeding Acana and phase out Orijen becasue Acana has slightly less protein at 33% vs 40% Orijen. Acana Grasslands has ingredients that sound really yummy--New Zealand ranch-raised lamb (certified free of added hormones and anti-biotics), fresh whole eggs and fresh wild-caught northern Walleye and northern pike. If only my dinner would sound this good. :biggrin: Because of the NZ lamb, the price for the Grasslands is a few $ more than the other flavours. If you don't mind grain, the store lady also said that a lot of her customers like Acana Lamb & Apples.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (JMM @ Nov 10 2009, 04:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849664


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849652





> I'd love to know why veterinarians caution against moderately higher protein/fat (good fat) kibble.
> 
> Have they treated dogs with health issues due to higher protein foods? Do they cite independent studies or published papers? (Not published by commercial dog food companies or their minions.) I'd like to read up on the reasons.
> 
> It seems like many dogs do much better on grain-free foods. My holistic vet frequently recommended them for dogs with skin issues and allergies, who were otherwise healthy.[/B]



Define moderately higher? 

What I have seen is:
Fat dogs fed small breed, active, or grain free foods and see weight reduction on a lower fat diet
Dogs with severely lipemic serum, high cholesterol, triglycerides, other abnormalities due to the lipemia. Yes, I buy that perhaps our normals are not normal values for some dogs, but severe lipemia of the sample...I can't buy that's normal, especially on a fasted sample. 
I have discussed with a few vets fatty deposits in the eyes with high fat diets (btw, one of those high fat diets was a prescription veterinary diet, so it wasn't "out to get" grain free)
High end of normal renal values which resolved with diet change to a "normal" protein diet (22-26%, not a prescription low protein kidney diet)

At the practice I work out we do recommend grain free novel protein diets for dogs with allergies. We recommend canned grain free as maintenance diet for most cats (cats are carnivores), especially overweight cats. For dogs that come to us on rx weight loss foods and no joy, after medical work up, suggest grain free. For fat dogs on grain free, we recommend a lower fat diet. The pet store we recommend carries pretty good brands (Nature's Variety, California Natural, Innova, Origien). 

High protein/fat isn't inherently bad. It just isn't appropriate for all dogs and I have a problem when it is displayed as the only best food to feed or when people feel lesser for feeding another quality food that is not grain free. I don't feed it as it isn't right for my current dogs...doesn't make me a bad owner and it doesn't mean I'm compromising my dogs' nutrition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Let me just say straight out that I highly respect your expertise and I don't assume that if you feed grains to your dog you are a bad owner and compromising your dog's nutrition. I have never once said that on this forum. My opinion is that most grain-free foods seem to have better quality ingredients, but I may be incorrect. I feed Nikki cheerio-type cereal for treats, and that contains oats and rice, so I'm not legalistic about all grains.

I don't think that some dog food companies are _out to get _grain free dog food companies, because many companies make both types of food. It would make good business sense for a company to market foods with grains, as grains are much cheaper. Yes, I am cynical, but let's be real, the bottom line in business is usually to turn a profit. Altruism is a nice word, but it rarely applies to huge corporations.

I didn't post to be contentious, Jackie. I just want to educate myself. People get on _my_ case if I post anecdotal evidence, so I thought I would ask if there were independent studies regarding this, as there are people who brand anecdotal evidence or personal experiences as unscientific. I don't. 

As far as defining moderate and high protein, I think that there are other people here much more qualified to do that as they actually feed kibble and would be able to read the protein counts on their bags. I assume (and I may be wrong, please correct me if I am!) that 30% protein in kibble is moderate? Over 40 is high? I'm not sure. That is why I am asking questions.

I've done a lot of research on fats lately and it appears that the Omega 3 fats are much better received in people and don't cause the health problems usually related to excess fat consumption, so I was wondering if it were the same in dogs, or if it was *all *fats that veterinarians were concerned with? 

Do dogs get fatty deposits from foods that contains _all or mostly _Omega 3 fats? 

What brands of high protein foods have you seen problems with? Is it all high-protein foods? If not, which ones cause problems? Which don't?

Could the problems have been caused by the _quality of the fat_ vs. the quantity? Was there ever a study done on a high Omega 3 fat grain-free high-protein food vs. a food with less Omega 3's and possibly rancid fats?

These are important questions, and I am sure that there must be others out there who would like to know. Or maybe I'm just a food geek.


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## princessre

I think all these are great questions! I would love to know the answer to them too! :biggrin: 

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 04:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849678


> QUOTE (JMM @ Nov 10 2009, 04:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849664





> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849652





> I'd love to know why veterinarians caution against moderately higher protein/fat (good fat) kibble.
> 
> Have they treated dogs with health issues due to higher protein foods? Do they cite independent studies or published papers? (Not published by commercial dog food companies or their minions.) I'd like to read up on the reasons.
> 
> It seems like many dogs do much better on grain-free foods. My holistic vet frequently recommended them for dogs with skin issues and allergies, who were otherwise healthy.[/B]



Define moderately higher? 

What I have seen is:
Fat dogs fed small breed, active, or grain free foods and see weight reduction on a lower fat diet
Dogs with severely lipemic serum, high cholesterol, triglycerides, other abnormalities due to the lipemia. Yes, I buy that perhaps our normals are not normal values for some dogs, but severe lipemia of the sample...I can't buy that's normal, especially on a fasted sample. 
I have discussed with a few vets fatty deposits in the eyes with high fat diets (btw, one of those high fat diets was a prescription veterinary diet, so it wasn't "out to get" grain free)
High end of normal renal values which resolved with diet change to a "normal" protein diet (22-26%, not a prescription low protein kidney diet)

At the practice I work out we do recommend grain free novel protein diets for dogs with allergies. We recommend canned grain free as maintenance diet for most cats (cats are carnivores), especially overweight cats. For dogs that come to us on rx weight loss foods and no joy, after medical work up, suggest grain free. For fat dogs on grain free, we recommend a lower fat diet. The pet store we recommend carries pretty good brands (Nature's Variety, California Natural, Innova, Origien). 

High protein/fat isn't inherently bad. It just isn't appropriate for all dogs and I have a problem when it is displayed as the only best food to feed or when people feel lesser for feeding another quality food that is not grain free. I don't feed it as it isn't right for my current dogs...doesn't make me a bad owner and it doesn't mean I'm compromising my dogs' nutrition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Let me just say straight out that I highly respect your expertise and I don't assume that if you feed grains to your dog you are a bad owner and compromising your dog's nutrition. I have never once said that on this forum. My opinion is that most grain-free foods seem to have better quality ingredients, but I may be incorrect. I feed Nikki cheerio-type cereal for treats, and that contains oats and rice, so I'm not legalistic about all grains.

I don't think that some dog food companies are _out to get _grain free dog food companies, because many companies make both types of food. It would make good business sense for a company to market foods with grains, as grains are much cheaper. Yes, I am cynical, but let's be real, the bottom line in business is usually to turn a profit. Altruism is a nice word, but it rarely applies to huge corporations.

I didn't post to be contentious, Jackie. I just want to educate myself. People get on _my_ case if I post anecdotal evidence, so I thought I would ask if there were independent studies regarding this, as there are people who brand anecdotal evidence or personal experiences as unscientific. I don't. 

As far as defining moderate and high protein, I think that there are other people here much more qualified to do that as they actually feed kibble and would be able to read the protein counts on their bags. I assume (and I may be wrong, please correct me if I am!) that 30% protein in kibble is moderate? Over 40 is high? I'm not sure. That is why I am asking questions.

I've done a lot of research on fats lately and it appears that the Omega 3 fats are much better received in people and don't cause the health problems usually related to excess fat consumption, so I was wondering if it were the same in dogs, or if it was *all *fats that veterinarians were concerned with? 

Do dogs get fatty deposits from foods that contains _all or mostly _Omega 3 fats? 

What brands of high protein foods have you seen problems with? Is it all high-protein foods? If not, which ones cause problems? Which don't?

Could the problems have been caused by the _quality of the fat_ vs. the quantity? Was there ever a study done on a high Omega 3 fat grain-free high-protein food vs. a food with less Omega 3's and possibly rancid fats?

These are important questions, and I am sure that there must be others out there who would like to know. Or maybe I'm just a food geek.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Nikki's Mom

My concern is that the lesser quality high protein/fat foods might be lumped in together with the higher quality high protein/fat foods. I'd like to know if there have been any studies done, specifically on types of fats in these grain-free foods. 

Rancid fats and poor quality fats- even poor quality omega 3 oils, might cause health issues, but as far as I know, at least in humans, good quality Omega 3 fats are more beneficial than they are detrimental. 

I'd like to know that even for home cooking.



QUOTE (princessre @ Nov 10 2009, 06:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849717


> I think all these are great questions! I would love to know the answer to them too! :biggrin:
> 
> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 04:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849678





> QUOTE (JMM @ Nov 10 2009, 04:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849664





> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849652





> I'd love to know why veterinarians caution against moderately higher protein/fat (good fat) kibble.
> 
> Have they treated dogs with health issues due to higher protein foods? Do they cite independent studies or published papers? (Not published by commercial dog food companies or their minions.) I'd like to read up on the reasons.
> 
> It seems like many dogs do much better on grain-free foods. My holistic vet frequently recommended them for dogs with skin issues and allergies, who were otherwise healthy.[/B]



Define moderately higher? 

What I have seen is:
Fat dogs fed small breed, active, or grain free foods and see weight reduction on a lower fat diet
Dogs with severely lipemic serum, high cholesterol, triglycerides, other abnormalities due to the lipemia. Yes, I buy that perhaps our normals are not normal values for some dogs, but severe lipemia of the sample...I can't buy that's normal, especially on a fasted sample. 
I have discussed with a few vets fatty deposits in the eyes with high fat diets (btw, one of those high fat diets was a prescription veterinary diet, so it wasn't "out to get" grain free)
High end of normal renal values which resolved with diet change to a "normal" protein diet (22-26%, not a prescription low protein kidney diet)

At the practice I work out we do recommend grain free novel protein diets for dogs with allergies. We recommend canned grain free as maintenance diet for most cats (cats are carnivores), especially overweight cats. For dogs that come to us on rx weight loss foods and no joy, after medical work up, suggest grain free. For fat dogs on grain free, we recommend a lower fat diet. The pet store we recommend carries pretty good brands (Nature's Variety, California Natural, Innova, Origien). 

High protein/fat isn't inherently bad. It just isn't appropriate for all dogs and I have a problem when it is displayed as the only best food to feed or when people feel lesser for feeding another quality food that is not grain free. I don't feed it as it isn't right for my current dogs...doesn't make me a bad owner and it doesn't mean I'm compromising my dogs' nutrition.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Let me just say straight out that I highly respect your expertise and I don't assume that if you feed grains to your dog you are a bad owner and compromising your dog's nutrition. I have never once said that on this forum. My opinion is that most grain-free foods seem to have better quality ingredients, but I may be incorrect. I feed Nikki cheerio-type cereal for treats, and that contains oats and rice, so I'm not legalistic about all grains.

I don't think that some dog food companies are _out to get _grain free dog food companies, because many companies make both types of food. It would make good business sense for a company to market foods with grains, as grains are much cheaper. Yes, I am cynical, but let's be real, the bottom line in business is usually to turn a profit. Altruism is a nice word, but it rarely applies to huge corporations.

I didn't post to be contentious, Jackie. I just want to educate myself. People get on _my_ case if I post anecdotal evidence, so I thought I would ask if there were independent studies regarding this, as there are people who brand anecdotal evidence or personal experiences as unscientific. I don't. 

As far as defining moderate and high protein, I think that there are other people here much more qualified to do that as they actually feed kibble and would be able to read the protein counts on their bags. I assume (and I may be wrong, please correct me if I am!) that 30% protein in kibble is moderate? Over 40 is high? I'm not sure. That is why I am asking questions.

I've done a lot of research on fats lately and it appears that the Omega 3 fats are much better received in people and don't cause the health problems usually related to excess fat consumption, so I was wondering if it were the same in dogs, or if it was *all *fats that veterinarians were concerned with? 

Do dogs get fatty deposits from foods that contains _all or mostly _Omega 3 fats? 

What brands of high protein foods have you seen problems with? Is it all high-protein foods? If not, which ones cause problems? Which don't?

Could the problems have been caused by the _quality of the fat_ vs. the quantity? Was there ever a study done on a high Omega 3 fat grain-free high-protein food vs. a food with less Omega 3's and possibly rancid fats?

These are important questions, and I am sure that there must be others out there who would like to know. Or maybe I'm just a food geek.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[/B][/QUOTE]


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## LJSquishy

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 06:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849771


> My concern is that the lesser quality high protein/fat foods might be lumped in together with the higher quality high protein/fat foods. I'd like to know if there have been any studies done, specifically on types of fats in these grain-free foods.
> 
> Rancid fats and poor quality fats- even poor quality omega 3 oils, might cause health issues, but as far as I know, at least in humans, good quality Omega 3 fats are more beneficial than they are detrimental.
> 
> I'd like to know that even for home cooking.[/B]


I think you've hit the nail on the head. All research I've done states that a high protein - low carb - moderate fat diet which includes all quality ingredients is extremely beneficial and should not contribute to or cause any health problems.

This is not to say that high protein diets will work for every dog -- for some it is just too rich.

I have decided to try the Orijen and/or Acana foods.


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## roxybaby22

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 04:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849678


> Let me just say straight out that I highly respect your expertise and I don't assume that if you feed grains to your dog you are a bad owner and compromising your dog's nutrition. I have never once said that on this forum. My opinion is that most grain-free foods seem to have better quality ingredients, but I may be incorrect. I feed Nikki cheerio-type cereal for treats, and that contains oats and rice, so I'm not legalistic about all grains.
> 
> I don't think that some dog food companies are _out to get _grain free dog food companies, because many companies make both types of food. It would make good business sense for a company to market foods with grains, as grains are much cheaper. Yes, I am cynical, but let's be real, the bottom line in business is usually to turn a profit. Altruism is a nice word, but it rarely applies to huge corporations.
> 
> I didn't post to be contentious, Jackie. I just want to educate myself. People get on _my_ case if I post anecdotal evidence, so I thought I would ask if there were independent studies regarding this, as there are people who brand anecdotal evidence or personal experiences as unscientific. I don't.
> 
> As far as defining moderate and high protein, I think that there are other people here much more qualified to do that as they actually feed kibble and would be able to read the protein counts on their bags. I assume (and I may be wrong, please correct me if I am!) that 30% protein in kibble is moderate? Over 40 is high? I'm not sure. That is why I am asking questions.
> 
> I've done a lot of research on fats lately and it appears that the Omega 3 fats are much better received in people and don't cause the health problems usually related to excess fat consumption, so I was wondering if it were the same in dogs, or if it was *all *fats that veterinarians were concerned with?
> 
> Do dogs get fatty deposits from foods that contains _all or mostly _Omega 3 fats?
> 
> What brands of high protein foods have you seen problems with? Is it all high-protein foods? If not, which ones cause problems? Which don't?
> 
> Could the problems have been caused by the _quality of the fat_ vs. the quantity? Was there ever a study done on a high Omega 3 fat grain-free high-protein food vs. a food with less Omega 3's and possibly rancid fats?
> 
> These are important questions, and I am sure that there must be others out there who would like to know. Or maybe I'm just a food geek.[/B]


:goodpost: I'd like to know too! There are too many variables like you have stated above and others not related to the protein like the amount the owner feeds the dog (maybe too much?).

To answer Lisa, I've been feeding Roxy Orijen for a while and it is here to stay. Her poops are firmer, her coat is shinier, and she isn't as hyper (of course, she is growing out of the puppy stage).


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## iheartbisou

I recently bought the Acana Grasslands and Bisou actually likes it and eats it right away. She wasn't crazy about the Acana Pacifica or the Acana Puppy bites but the Grasslands passes her test (whatever that may be).


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## The A Team

Recently I decided to change foods for the kids, they were on NB Potato and Duck - and the only reason is that I have to drive like 10 miles to get it. We have a very good pet supply source right near me so after reading ingredients and trying sample bags, I bought a bag of Innova. The pieces are small and the kids like it. Then after reading on this forum so much about this Orijen, I bought a bag of that (in a store about an hour from here).....I mixed the two foods together and free feed. 

Now I'm noticing that they are picking out the Orijen and leaving it all over the floor while they eat the Innova. Guess that's ok beings I can't get it locally anyway, LOL. Live and learn.


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## Lindy

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Nov 14 2009, 08:52 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851001


> Recently I decided to change foods for the kids, they were on NB Potato and Duck - and the only reason is that I have to drive like 10 miles to get it. We have a very good pet supply source right near me so after reading ingredients and trying sample bags, I bought a bag of Innova. The pieces are small and the kids like it. Then after reading on this forum so much about this Orijen, I bought a bag of that (in a store about an hour from here).....I mixed the two foods together and free feed.
> 
> Now I'm noticing that they are picking out the Orijen and leaving it all over the floor while they eat the Innova. Guess that's ok beings I can't get it locally anyway, LOL. Live and learn. [/B]


I am sorry to hear about your experience with the Orijen. I guess they are like us. Some like fish, some just don't.


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## Lindy

QUOTE (camfan @ Nov 10 2009, 03:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849634


> You know, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in dogfoodanalysis.com. It used to be one of my favorite sites THEN it occured to me that it seems to ALL be based on how much protein is in the food. If protein is the #1 ingredient, etc. Seriously, that's all it's based on. For example, they rate Science Diet sensitive stomach and Eukanuba SS the lowest of the low and say if they could give SD zero stars they would. BECAUSE there is little to no protein in it. Um, well, that's because that's what's recommended for dogs that are having stomach issues. I thought that was a really ignorant statement and they lost credibility in my book after reading that.
> 
> MHO is that if our own vets and others with many years experience are saying to be careful, I'd be careful. It doesn't mean don't try it out, just proceede with caution.
> 
> It can all be quite overwhelming, eh? Best of luck :grouphug:[/B]


I have to agree on the dog food analysis sites. Take one example... they rate Halo's Spots Stew as not having enough meat protein, but to me, having meat meal is probably not the best thing, and the added protein for Halo is whole eggs, which I consider to be meat protein (at least that is my opinion) and pea protein. Pea protein is a very digestible protein and is high quality. So seriously, I can't put much stock into these sites either. :smilie_daumenpos: By the way, the dry Spot's Stew smells amazing! When my dogs do get any dry, because I've been lazy about cooking for them or giving them raw, that is what I give them. They absolutely love it.


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## LitGal

I cook for Haiku, but I always have a bag of Orijen on hand to give to her as treats or for the rare occasions when I haven't thawed a meal for her.
Our holistic vet recommends home cooking as the best option, but she's also a strong believer in Orijen and says that it's a good alternative to home meals.


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## LJSquishy

QUOTE


> I have to agree on the dog food analysis sites. Take one example... they rate Halo's Spots Stew as not having enough meat protein, but to me, having meat meal is probably not the best thing, and the added protein for Halo is whole eggs, which I consider to be meat protein (at least that is my opinion) and pea protein. Pea protein is a very digestible protein and is high quality. So seriously, I can't put much stock into these sites either. :smilie_daumenpos: By the way, the dry Spot's Stew smells amazing! When my dogs do get any dry, because I've been lazy about cooking for them or giving them raw, that is what I give them. They absolutely love it.[/B]


Meat meal is the "best" protein I believe (don't quote me on it!), but I agree that there are SO many other sources of protein that are also very good. There was a website of some kind I found that listed the different "ratings" of proteins, ie: meat, whole eggs, pea, etc. that was very interesting because not all protein sources are equal. I will see if I can find it again!


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## Furbaby's Mommie

Excellent discussion! :thumbsup: Since I don't know the answers I like to use a lot of variety. Shoni doesn't like real fishy smelling food but the Senior Orijen is less fishy and less fat and he does like it. I don't know if it is right....but what I'm doing is mix and excellent organic dry that has some carbs--Karma--with the Orijen senior and a little Evo red meat tiny bits (I get sample size Orijen and Evo). But only half Shoni's food is dry, so he only gets a total of 1/4 c. dry. According to The Whole Dog Journal and other experts, the best dry food is only possibly the equal of the worse canned food. (or something like that) B)


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## Lindy

QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Nov 14 2009, 12:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851072


> QUOTE





> I have to agree on the dog food analysis sites. Take one example... they rate Halo's Spots Stew as not having enough meat protein, but to me, having meat meal is probably not the best thing, and the added protein for Halo is whole eggs, which I consider to be meat protein (at least that is my opinion) and pea protein. Pea protein is a very digestible protein and is high quality. So seriously, I can't put much stock into these sites either. :smilie_daumenpos: By the way, the dry Spot's Stew smells amazing! When my dogs do get any dry, because I've been lazy about cooking for them or giving them raw, that is what I give them. They absolutely love it.[/B]


Meat meal is the "best" protein I believe (don't quote me on it!), but I agree that there are SO many other sources of protein that are also very good. There was a website of some kind I found that listed the different "ratings" of proteins, ie: meat, whole eggs, pea, etc. that was very interesting because not all protein sources are equal. I will see if I can find it again!
[/B][/QUOTE]


I would love to see that info, thanks! The reason I have a problem with meat meal is that it is rendered. Anything rendered is not fit for human consumption. I once read a book called "Food Pets Die For" by Ann Martin. It was a real eye opener for me and I always keep it around, because I feel it keeps me accountable especially when some dog food product has a pretty package and I start thinking of trying it. Believe me, I have been through the gamut of dog foods, but my idea of dog food was drastically changed when I read this book. You might want to pick it up, or not. Regards!


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## LJSquishy

I still haven't been able to find the link that lists the different protein sources from best to worst, but I'll keep looking!

I picked up a small bag of Orijen 6 Fresh Fish today to start the transition -- THEY WENT NUTS FOR IT! It looks & smells so fresh, I was really pleased with the visual quality of the food. I love that each kibble is a little different in size. L&P are going to start off by getting the Orijen as treats only, then I will sloooooowly transition their food over a 2 week period or so...I want to do an extra slow transition since it is much higher in protein than their Natural Balance food and I'd rather avoid loose stool! lol If the transition goes well, I will end up rotating the 6 Fresh Fish with Regional Red & the regular Adult formulas.  I'll keep you all updated on the progress!


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## Lindy

QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Nov 14 2009, 02:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851118


> I still haven't been able to find the link that lists the different protein sources from best to worst, but I'll keep looking!
> 
> I picked up a small bag of Orijen 6 Fresh Fish today to start the transition -- THEY WENT NUTS FOR IT! It looks & smells so fresh, I was really pleased with the visual quality of the food. I love that each kibble is a little different in size. L&P are going to start off by getting the Orijen as treats only, then I will sloooooowly transition their food over a 2 week period or so...I want to do an extra slow transition since it is much higher in protein than their Natural Balance food and I'd rather avoid loose stool! lol If the transition goes well, I will end up rotating the 6 Fresh Fish with Regional Red & the regular Adult formulas.  I'll keep you all updated on the progress![/B]


your transition should go very well with that plan, and what's good for you, is good for you. That's all that matters.


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