# Did you buy from a breeder who tested?



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

We all stress buying from a responsible breeder because we have a better chance for a healthy pup. Testing is also stressed. Perhaps it's time to get this topic going again. The last time I asked this, I don't recall a single post from anyone where testing was done, and this included some of the more well known breeders.

Did you buy from a breeder who tested the parents of your pup for genetic problems?

Was you pup tested before you got it?

If testing was done, what type did they receive?


----------



## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

I think this is a wonderful topic. I hope it puts a lot of things into perspective. There are many hypocritical judgements passed on this forum and I find it amusing that no one will step up to answer the question, yet they are so ready to 1.) pass judgement and 2.) lecture others on how they have done wrong.

Off my soapbox...

I will answer this honestly...the only testing done by Toby's breeder was DNA testing and I suspect that was only because he sires several litters a year. 

In the future, now that I know better, I will look for a more reputable breeder, but as you stated, how many reputable breeders even do testing???


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I think this is a wonderful topic. I hope it puts a lot of things into perspective. There are many hypocritical judgements passed on this forum and I find it amusing that no one will step up to answer the question, yet they are so ready to 1.) pass judgement and 2.) lecture others on how they have done wrong.
> 
> Off my soapbox...
> 
> ...



Sorry the above went through without my reply.

I have just sold the 9th pup from my breeding over a three year period. Next year, I do plan to do more, and I am researching what I want to do for testing. There is absolutely nothing on the AMA site related to testing. I find that vets in my area don't have much to suggest either. 

I sure hope this topic does give food for thought as to what we recommend and what is actually being done.


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

Mine didn't.


----------



## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

Mine didn't either...but at the time I didn't even know that I should be asking about health testing. And I'm pretty sure if you asked some of the long time breeders (including those on the AMA list), some of them will think you're nuts for asking...they will tell you they've never had any health issues in their lines and that will be the end of it. I do think that the success of a breeding program should be measured by not only how many champions it has produced but also the health of the dogs it has produced. I wish that the parent club or the regional clubs would push for health testing....maybe one day.


----------



## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I think the AKC has a policy regarding genetic testing when artificial insemination (I do hope I spelled that correctly) is used. I know that our breeder's male was tested, but I'm not sure about the female. You may want to check with the AKC website.


----------



## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

> Mine didn't either...but at the time I didn't even know that I should be asking about health testing. And I'm pretty sure if you asked some of the long time breeders (including those on the AMA list), some of them will think you're nuts for asking...they will tell you they've never had any health issues in their lines and that will be the end of it. I do think that the success of a breeding program should be measured by not only how many champions it has produced but also the health of the dogs it has produced. I wish that the parent club or the regional clubs would push for health testing....maybe one day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you Pippinsmom.

I'll step up to the plate and say that I don't know if my breeder did genetic testing, but what I do know is that she takes the steps and follows the procedures that ethical breeders are supposed to. I didn't know either at the time we bought Ruby that this was something that should be done, but what I did know was to not buy a puppy from a pet store or BYB.


----------



## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

Almost 2.3 years ago when buying our baby, we truly had NO idea what to ask, and certainly had no idea what testing should be done or even what problems can arise. We were young and I was dying for a little white fluffy doggie. What can I say -- you live and you learn!! You would think at 27 I know better now, but in many ways, I haven't changed








Of course, now I would not get another dog without having knees, hips and bile tests done. I realize not that many breeders are doing the testing. But I simply cannot purchase another dog and risk having same knees issues.







I think I would definitely ask JMM for input regarding testing before purchasing another puppy.


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I would request that the breeder do a chemistry panel and bile acids before I took a puppy. 

There are some breeders testing (Rhapsody, Four Halls) and a few more who are starting. 

Ideal would be:
OFA patellas on both parents
Parents and puppies bile acids/chem/cbc
Parents annual ACVO/CERF exam
Parents thyroid panel


----------



## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm glad this topic has been brought up, it's very interesting. I look forward to more replies. I'm also not sure what tests should definately be done. As a prospective puppy buyer I would hope that a routine puppy exam would include atleast checking for luxating patellas before the puppy is placed in another home. My dogs have been tested for that and at no extra charge by the vet. Liver shunt should possibly be on that list as well, although if the parents and grandparents were known not to have it, maybe not?


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> I'm glad this topic has been brought up, it's very interesting. I look forward to more replies. I'm also not sure what tests should definately be done. As a prospective puppy buyer I would hope that a routine puppy exam would include atleast checking for luxating patellas before the puppy is placed in another home. My dogs have been tested for that and at no extra charge by the vet. Liver shunt should possibly be on that list as well, although if the parents and grandparents were known not to have it, maybe not?[/B]


Liver shunt and MVD are considered polygenic traits...which means we know because of the incidence that it is genetic, but we don't know how it is passed and it probably is very complicated. So, every dog and pup should be tested.


----------



## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

I have mentioned many times... the breeders I got Kodie from did NO testing what so ever!


----------



## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

The breeder I got Matilda from did not do any testing


----------



## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

> I think the AKC has a policy regarding genetic testing when artificial insemination (I do hope I spelled that correctly) is used. I know that our breeder's male was tested, but I'm not sure about the female. You may want to check with the AKC website.[/B]


I don't know about AI but I do know that the AKC requires that DNA be registered for frequently used sires. All this test does is identify the DNA markers of the dog for identification purposes, it does not screen for genetic diseases. So if you wanted to have your puppy's DNA tested to verify the sire listed on his pedigree is the true sire of your puppy, you would be in good shape....but it does not mean that the sire was screened for health issues.


----------



## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

That's good to know. I did check with my breeder and testing was done on the male. No genetic testing was done on the mother.


----------



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> I would request that the breeder do a chemistry panel and bile acids before I took a puppy.
> 
> There are some breeders testing (Rhapsody, Four Halls) and a few more who are starting.
> 
> ...


I am glad byou posted a list of ideal tests. The question I had is what type of testing should a breeder do.

Four Halls Maltese has actually been testing for a while. She has a wonderful breeding program. Her Maltese are beautiful and so well cared for. I honestly believe she is one of the best breeders I have ever met. I would trust her with my babies any time and any day.


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> I am glad byou posted a list of ideal tests. The question I had is what type of testing should a breeder do.
> 
> Four Halls Maltese has actually been testing for a while. She has a wonderful breeding program. Her Maltese are beautiful and so well cared for. I honestly believe she is one of the best breeders I have ever met. I would trust her with my babies any time and any day.[/B]


Basically, that list is what should be done to clear a dog phenotypically for hereditary problems. Major problems in the breed: luxating patellas, liver shunt, MVD, eye problems, hypothyroidism, PDA (you can OFA for heart with just an auscultation). OFA patellas clears for that. Chem/CBC/bile acids is for liver disease and also general health (kidneys, liver, ect.). CERF/ACVO exam for eye problems (especially ectopic cilia, entropion, etc.), thyroid panel for hypothyroidism, and vet exam of OFA cardiac for PDA.


----------



## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

> I think this is a wonderful topic. I hope it puts a lot of things into perspective. There are many hypocritical judgements passed on this forum and I find it amusing that no one will step up to answer the question, yet they are so ready to 1.) pass judgement and 2.) lecture others on how they have done wrong.[/B]


I don't really understand what you mean with the above, what question hasn't been answered or how it relates to testing by breeders.

In response to the thread question, I do not believe that Audrey had the tests mentioned by JMM, but I definitely think it is a good idea, and would probably contribute towards the cost of getting the tests done (on the pup) if we were going to get another baby. We did pretty extensive testing when we got Audrey, but don't think it covered genetic issues at all.
It sounds to me like the tests on the parents should be done as a matter of course - it's a very good idea.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=128605
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The way I interpret this is that we all preach going to a breeder who does testing, yet we don't have people on this site (including me) who got pups from breeders who did do testing.


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129054
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that is EXACTLY what she meant...and the testing question has been asked several times, and very few if any answered it...b/c they know they preach it, but didn't do it themselves.
I feel like more breeders may lean that way in the future, but the majority of them (reputable or not) don't test and aren't going to test until they see something in their lines that causes them to feel like they need to. That is just my opinion.


----------



## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129134
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The way I interpret this is that we all preach going to a breeder who does testing, yet we don't have people on this site (including me) who got pups from breeders who did do testing.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I think that is EXACTLY what she meant...and the testing question has been asked several times, and very few if any answered it...b/c they know they preach it, but didn't do it themselves.
I feel like more breeders may lean that way in the future, but the majority of them (reputable or not) don't test and aren't going to test until they see something in their lines that causes them to feel like they need to. That is just my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]
All I am saying is that this question about testing has been asked a few times before and the thread goes unanswered. Why? I would venture to say that most of the people on this board did not have their dog tested prior to purchasing, yet so often there are people who feel the need to tell others how "wrong" they were when purchasing their dog because they did not have the testing done. How does that even make sense?


----------



## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

Ok let some us breeders step up here that has sold pups have you did all those test before you sold one of your dogs? I will be the first to admit I have not had all those test ran on a pup when they go to there forever homes #1 reason I have not seen no large health issues from my line to go and do that much testing and put my pup through all that stress for NOTHING. I think if people want to do all the testing that is great but I also feel like a breeder should give refrence to any one that is very interested in there pup of others that has some of their pups if they are satisfied and have they had any health issures. I also beleive a good breeder won't meet the person in a central place to place the pup, I feel like a good breeder would want who ever that would be interested in there pup come to there home or Kennel and see how their maltese are raised how clean they keep it and see how their dogs behave and there surroundings that they live in. I have to admit I met Traci when she got Brinkley cause she asked me to would cut down a hour of their time driving back to Tenn. I did but that is not good bussiness I told her. So I took about 8 malts with me the parents and some others to show her my kidz. A good breeder should be more then happy to let people come in to see how she or he raises the maltese . To me that is a red flag if they ask will you meet me at such and such place they are trying to hide something. But this is my thoughts as a breeder though. I love to have people out to see my fluffs cause they are my life and I am very proud of them and how they live. As far as all the extra testing I do not do it but would if someone thought it was needed. I have not had any health problems in my line ( knock on wood and hope and pray I don't )
Sorry this was so long but I wanted to share my imput as a breeder side of the story to. I think when others want to stress all the testing needs to be done that they need to live by it as well. Ohe excuse my English here I was not good in English or spelling so forgive me on that!
Charlotte


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129134
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The way I interpret this is that we all preach going to a breeder who does testing, yet we don't have people on this site (including me) who got pups from breeders who did do testing.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I think that is EXACTLY what she meant...and the testing question has been asked several times, and very few if any answered it...b/c they know they preach it, but didn't do it themselves.
I feel like more breeders may lean that way in the future, but the majority of them (reputable or not) don't test and aren't going to test until they see something in their lines that causes them to feel like they need to. That is just my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I must be having a "senior moment" because I can't think of any particular barage of postings here on SM preaching for testing or asking about it. ???

I'm not necessarily referring to this situation but there may be situations where people will "preach" about something even though they made a mistake and didn't do it themselves. If that is the case, I would guess that they are trying to spare others from making the same mistake they made. That certainly does not make someone hypocritical.


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129138
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that is EXACTLY what she meant...and the testing question has been asked several times, and very few if any answered it...b/c they know they preach it, but didn't do it themselves.
I feel like more breeders may lean that way in the future, but the majority of them (reputable or not) don't test and aren't going to test until they see something in their lines that causes them to feel like they need to. That is just my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I must be having a "senior moment" because I can't think of any particular barage of postings here on SM preaching for testing or asking about it. ???

I'm not necessarily referring to this situation but there may be situations where people will "preach" about something even though they made a mistake and didn't do it themselves. If that is the case, I would guess that they are trying to spare others from making the same mistake they made. That certainly does not make someone hypocritical.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Testing is ALWAYS covered when people on here are telling others what they should look for in a "reputable" breeder. ALWAYS!!!!


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129153
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The way I interpret this is that we all preach going to a breeder who does testing, yet we don't have people on this site (including me) who got pups from breeders who did do testing.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I think that is EXACTLY what she meant...and the testing question has been asked several times, and very few if any answered it...b/c they know they preach it, but didn't do it themselves.
I feel like more breeders may lean that way in the future, but the majority of them (reputable or not) don't test and aren't going to test until they see something in their lines that causes them to feel like they need to. That is just my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I must be having a "senior moment" because I can't think of any particular barage of postings here on SM preaching for testing or asking about it. ???

I'm not necessarily referring to this situation but there may be situations where people will "preach" about something even though they made a mistake and didn't do it themselves. If that is the case, I would guess that they are trying to spare others from making the same mistake they made. That certainly does not make someone hypocritical.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Testing is ALWAYS covered when people on here are telling others what they should look for in a "reputable" breeder. ALWAYS!!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, I guess I didn't see that as "preaching"... just maybe listing the ideal scenario ... And if the person listing "testing" didn't have their own Malt tested before purchasing perhaps they are just trying to help someone else avoid an issue they themselves had... I had never ever heard of testing before MO and SM. I had never heard of Malts having liver problems or luxating patellas until after I had purchased three Malts and had one for over 12 years...


----------



## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129138
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that is EXACTLY what she meant...and the testing question has been asked several times, and very few if any answered it...b/c they know they preach it, but didn't do it themselves.
I feel like more breeders may lean that way in the future, but the majority of them (reputable or not) don't test and aren't going to test until they see something in their lines that causes them to feel like they need to. That is just my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I must be having a "senior moment" because I can't think of any particular barage of postings here on SM preaching for testing or asking about it. ???

I'm not necessarily referring to this situation but there may be situations where people will "preach" about something even though they made a mistake and didn't do it themselves. If that is the case, I would guess that they are trying to spare others from making the same mistake they made. That certainly does not make someone hypocritical.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I totally agree that don't want somebody else making the same mistake they made I will be the first to say I made a very large mistake trusting a breeder and it ended up she was nothing but full of lies. Boy did this through me for a loop how dirty breeders can be. NO don't take me wrong not all breeders are out just for the MONEY but this lady was as soon as I laid over 5 gran in her hand her word meant nothing boy this was a night mare of my life.I set still for quite awhile after that till I was told about a good breeder and I would recommend her to everybody the Pretty Boy I got from her I would of never thought maltese was that pretty. She is honest and what she says about her kidz is what they are. I don't want nobody to make the same mistake I did with the four I purchase from a lady in Pa that was so dishonest .


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Perhaps this post was worded wrong from the beginning. Maybe it should have read "where can you find a breeder who does testing?" 
Someone pointed out to me that they didn't want to mention their breeder didn't test because they were happy with them. I'm happy with where I got my pups too. Would I go back to them for another? In a heart beat! 
We do mention that it is ideal to use a breeder who does testing. But, where are they? Is it possible that there just isn't that much being done with Maltese? I know in breeds like Labs, OFA has been done for years. These dogs produce eight to ten or more in a litter. A Maltese may produce one to four in a litter. There is not as much incentive to have it done, and I'm not sure the buyer is willing to pay for the added cost that would be put on the price of the pup if it were done in Maltese. As I study and plan for the future, I look at the testing to be done. I also look at the people who already complain at the cost of a pup. Just this morning I was reading where someone took a long time finding a pup they could afford--$650. Now, if I add five hundred dollars in testing (percent from parents and actual labs on the pup), how many are going to want to go with that? Right now, my vet is checking patellas, but I haven't had the formal testing done. I will offer the buyer the option of the lab work on the pups, at the added cost to them. That's as far as I've gotten at this point.
So, as I ramble along, I would like to add that before one goes out giving advice on buying a pup, look at the situation from a realistic standpoint. Sure, it would be nice if all parents and pups were tested, but can they be found, and are you as a buyer willing to pay the cost? I would hate to see us send the person coming her for advice on buying a pup to only buy from one who does testing when they aren't out there. I would also hate to see people keep preaching about not breeding dogs unless they have had all these tests when they didn't follow the same idea when obtaining their own dog.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> would also hate to see people keep preaching about not breeding dogs unless they have had all these tests when they didn't follow the same idea when obtaining their own dog.[/B]


Perhaps I am misinterpreting... but I don't understand why someone cannot recommend something that is contrary to the way they originally handled a situation themselves. Am I correct in understanding that you are saying that unless a poster has purchased a Malt that has had testing, you don't think he/she should recommend buying from a breeder or not breeding until testing was done? Not to be redundant but as I said in an earlier post.... we may want to spare others from making our mistakes. For example, if someone has a pet store Malt that has liver disease. This same person would likely recommend that someone not buy from a pet store and not buy unless the Malt is tested for liver disease. Just a thought....


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129187
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

> ...before one goes out giving advice on buying a pup, look at the situation from a realistic standpoint. Sure, it would be nice if all parents and pups were tested, but can they be found, and are *you as a buyer willing to pay the cost?* I would hate to see us send the person coming her for advice on buying a pup to only buy from one who does testing when they aren't out there.[/B]


This is exactly the point I was trying to make!





> I would also hate to see people keep preaching about not breeding dogs unless they have had all these tests when they didn't follow the same idea when obtaining their own dog.[/B]


This is what I am talking about when I mention hypocrites. 

All I am saying is by telling people to have their dog tested, you are basically sending them on a wild goose chase, when we all know that the vast majority of breeders do not have their dogs tested.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129190
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I see no problem with making those recommendations. But, where are these breeders? If we tell someone to only buy from a breeder who does testing, it would be nice to have recommendations of breeders for them.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129192
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]


No, I see no problem with making those recommendations. But, where are these breeders? If we tell someone to only buy from a breeder who does testing, it would be nice to have recommendations of breeders for them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Gotcha







Good point.


----------



## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

Amen, I feel this subject has stepped on allot of toes and should not of been brought up in this matter. I will say again it you are going to bringing up this you need to be living it my two cents worth!


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Amen, I feel this subject has stepped on allot of toes and should not of been brought up in this matter. I will say again it you are going to bringing up this you need to be living it my two cents worth![/B]



Charlotte, I'm sorry you feel that way. I certainly wasn't directing anything at you, or any breeder in particular. I was just trying to point out that the recommendations are being made, yet we don't have a referral source for these folks. As I stated in one post, I am looking at what I want to do with my own dogs, and I welcome any input to help me with this.


----------



## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129138
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that is EXACTLY what she meant...and the testing question has been asked several times, and very few if any answered it...b/c they know they preach it, but didn't do it themselves.
I feel like more breeders may lean that way in the future, but the majority of them (reputable or not) don't test and aren't going to test until they see something in their lines that causes them to feel like they need to. That is just my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I must be having a "senior moment" because I can't think of any particular barage of postings here on SM preaching for testing or asking about it. ???

I'm not necessarily referring to this situation but there may be situations where people will "preach" about something even though they made a mistake and didn't do it themselves. If that is the case, I would guess that they are trying to spare others from making the same mistake they made. That certainly does not make someone hypocritical.
[/B][/QUOTE]

This was my point - thanks for making it better than I did! I think we need to be careful about calling people hypocritical and 'preachers'. Perhaps the posts were not responded to because people simply do not know the correct tests etc. I didn't get them, but definitely think it would be a good idea for the future and would advise others similarly. If that makes me hypocritical then I guess it is what it is.


----------



## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I think this thread has been pretty interesting. I'm sorry that some folks have gotten their feelings hurt. This is how I feel - my breeder did not test. I've mentioned that before (tho somewhat reluctantly). I would buy from her again in a minute. I would also ask that the testing be done and I would offer to pay for it myself. I did ask about testing and she told that she'd never had a problem. I believe her but after all the research that I've done on this board and others, I would probably insist that it be done before I purchased another puppy. Again - I would happily pay the cost. I feel like the testing issue has been strongly suggested as "best case scenario" but for the most part most of us have sheepishly admitted that we didn't actually do it. I like to think that I can learn from others and I would make this a priority. The person who bought from the pet shop the first time might not buy the $3000 puppy from the breeder who tests, but if they try and find a more reputable breeder, then they have learned and are making an effort to obtain a healthier pup. That is all that we can hope for. Our priorities are different too. My priority was to use a small breeder who shows their pups. Others don't care about this. It is OK! I am comfortable with my choices and I respect everyone else's right to make their own....

I enjoy the exchange of ideas and information, even when we don't always agree.


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> I think this thread has been pretty interesting. I'm sorry that some folks have gotten their feelings hurt. This is how I feel - my breeder did not test. I've mentioned that before (tho somewhat reluctantly). I would buy from her again in a minute. I would also ask that the testing be done and I would offer to pay for it myself. I did ask about testing and she told that she'd never had a problem. I believe her but after all the research that I've done on this board and others, I would probably insist that it be done before I purchased another puppy. Again - I would happily pay the cost. I feel like the testing issue has been strongly suggested as "best case scenario" but for the most part most of us have sheepishly admitted that we didn't actually do it. I like to think that I can learn from others and I would make this a priority. The person who bought from the pet shop the first time might not buy the $3000 puppy from the breeder who tests, but if they try and find a more reputable breeder, then they have learned and are making an effort to obtain a healthier pup. That is all that we can hope for. Our priorities are different too. My priority was to use a small breeder who shows their pups. Others don't care about this. It is OK! I am comfortable with my choices and I respect everyone else's right to make their own....
> 
> I enjoy the exchange of ideas and information, even when we don't always agree.[/B]



Paying for it ourselves is an excellent option. I am sure most honest breeders would have no problem having the testing done as long as you pay for it ahead of time...

So here is a question to the breeders...because I honestly don't know...

IF someone paid for the testing to be done, and it came back that there was potential problems...what would you do as a breeder? If this potential buyer passed on the pup b/c of test results...would you then disclose to other potential buyers that the test had been run, and the results. I mean, to be honest, you would want to, but how would you handle this?
Maybe it is a stupid question, but I just wonder how each would handle it.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I think this thread has been pretty interesting. I'm sorry that some folks have gotten their feelings hurt. This is how I feel - my breeder did not test. I've mentioned that before (tho somewhat reluctantly). I would buy from her again in a minute. I would also ask that the testing be done and I would offer to pay for it myself. I did ask about testing and she told that she'd never had a problem. I believe her but after all the research that I've done on this board and others, I would probably insist that it be done before I purchased another puppy. Again - I would happily pay the cost. I feel like the testing issue has been strongly suggested as "best case scenario" but for the most part most of us have sheepishly admitted that we didn't actually do it. I like to think that I can learn from others and I would make this a priority. The person who bought from the pet shop the first time might not buy the $3000 puppy from the breeder who tests, but if they try and find a more reputable breeder, then they have learned and are making an effort to obtain a healthier pup. That is all that we can hope for. Our priorities are different too. My priority was to use a small breeder who shows their pups. Others don't care about this. It is OK! I am comfortable with my choices and I respect everyone else's right to make their own....
> 
> I enjoy the exchange of ideas and information, even when we don't always agree.[/B]



I thought it was good to have an exchange of ideas too, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone by bringing up this subject. When I posted it, I was not trying to single out anyone. Heck, I don't do the testing myself. But, I am openminded enough to investigate the need. I was just trying to point out that so many recommend it, but it isn't done enough so that there is a referral base for it. I'm still reeling from the private email I got telling me off. I hope it made the person feel better to tell me how little they thought of me and any of my posts.
I almost hate to add this one fact for fear that I'll get another round of hatred, but I do think that it needs to be pointed out that many vets will not test pups with the fasting bloodwork because the pups are so small. This might be a real problem in having the liver shunt testing done in some cases.


----------



## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

We had no testing done. I believe it's nature and nurture. If you take care of them well enough, you can diminish your chances of alot of things. But, like I said before there are never any guarantees in life of a dog or a person. You have to wish for the best. Those tests can't guarantee there might not be something else later down the road. Whatever, it's just too much.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129375
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would refund the money they paid for the testing. The pup would no longer be for sale. If I produced one with a problem, then it would be my responsibility to care for it.


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129386
> 
> 
> 
> ...










Wow...great that you would refund the money for the testing too...


----------



## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129375
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, what is wrong with bringing up topics that encourage discussion? I just don't understand why we can't have a discussion that involves disagreement without making personal attacks on someone. I'm sorry you got a nasty PM. I could probably deflect the topic of this discussion by bringing up a political thread. LOL. 

Now to go to Traci's question - how much does it cost to have this testing done and would the breeders be willing to do it for a potential buyer. Or, if I asked for the testing to be done and offered to pay, would the breeder sell to someone else because I was "making waves".


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129391
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good question!!!


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Why should any reputable breeder object if a person wants it done? If the vet saw no problem with doing the testing, then I would have no problem taking the pup in. I would not do the fasting bloodwork with a tiny one though.
I'm not sure with adding all the labs and the vet visits together, but somewhere around $200 to $250 here for the bloodwork and that testing. The testing for LP would have to be done through x-ray, and I'm told that a dog is to be two years old before those are certified. Then, there is testing for the eyes, if one wants that, but I don't have any information on that at this time.


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129138
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Breeders already have problems in their lines and they aren't testing. If you think even some "top" breeders have healthy dogs, think again. They just keep it quiet. 

Reputable breeders need to start testing and there are a few who have. 

I didn't know that you could test for many of these problems when I bought my first few Maltese...but I learned. If I had the knowledge now and disregarded it, then somebody ought to yell at me. 

Health testing is not a highly visible thing in Maltese. However, general information on purchasing from a reputable breeder instead of a pet store/mill/broker/byb is quite available. If you can find this site, you can find that information. Most didn't before their first dog, but if you have that information and disregard it, then I'm going to yell at you for supporting breeding practices that are detrimental to Maltese and dogs in general. 


1. Just because a dog looks healthy doesn't mean it is. Many problems may not even present for years after a dog has been bred. IMO, it is shameful for breeders to continue not to test their breeding stock once they are aware they can utilize testing (yes, many breeders just don't know...but once they do, if they choose to ignore it, then I've got a problem with it). 

2. Testing is not incredibly expensive. Any breeding dog, no matter the breed, should have a CBC/Chem panel run for general health. That runs at the rather expensive practice I work at, a little over $100. Add bile acids for probably around $40. 

3. Fasting a 12 week old puppy in most cases is not dangerous (unless it is extremely small or has a history of hypoglycemia). Ammonia tolerance testing is another option as is urine bile acids (urine bile acids:creatinine ration 4-5 hours after eating). A questionable result could be followed up with serum bile acids (pre- and post-prandial)

4. Ask for bile acids before you take a puppy home. You could be looking at thousands of dollars of surgery and a dead dog. Shell out the $40 or $50 bucks. It is a lot cheaper than having a shunt or MVD dog and will save you a TON of heartbreak. 

BTW, normal numbers for Maltese with serum bile acids are a little higher than many labs say. Under 30/35 is definitely normal. Even a little high may also be normal. A questionable dog can be followed up with an ammonia tolerance test.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Breeders already have problems in their lines and they aren't testing. If you think even some "top" breeders have healthy dogs, think again. They just keep it quiet.
> 
> Reputable breeders need to start testing and there are a few who have.
> 
> ...


Jackie, as always... great info. I would think that most decent breeders would have had a CBC/Chem run on their breeding dogs as a matter of health testing in general at least once a year. I have that done on K & C once a year and will soon go to 6 months for Kallie as she is getting close to four years old. 

Regarding the liver shunt testing.... to make sure I'm understanding correctly....if we get the bile acids test done and it comes out normal... then the pup is not going to have a liver shunt for sure ??


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> Jackie, as always... great info. I would think that most decent breeders would have had a CBC/Chem run on their breeding dogs as a matter of health testing in general at least once a year. I have that done on K & C once a year and will soon go to 6 months for Kallie as she is getting close to four years old.
> 
> Regarding the liver shunt testing.... to make sure I'm understanding correctly....if we get the bile acids test done and it comes out normal... then the pup is not going to have a liver shunt for sure ??[/B]



It would be clear for a congenital portosystemic shunt. Dogs with certain types of liver disease can develop acquired shunts later in life, but this would be a sick for with something like cirrhosis.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Amen, I feel this subject has stepped on allot of toes and should not of been brought up in this matter. I will say again it you are going to bringing up this you need to be living it my two cents worth![/B]



At this point, I give the seller the option to have the testing done. I'm more than willing to take the pup in for any testing. Some people prefer to pay less and not have the testing done.


----------



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I had two bile acid tests done on one of my kids. Yet, the vet still thinks he may have liver issues. He told me that bile acid tests often aren't that accurate. Has anyone else heard this before?


----------



## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

> I had two bile acid tests done on one of my kids. Yet, the vet still thinks he may have liver issues. He told me that bile acid tests often aren't that accurate. Has anyone else heard this before?[/B]


I was told the tests could be different all the time because it depends when the liver empties. Something along those lines... kodie has high bile acids and then sometimes normal ones all within the same month.


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> I had two bile acid tests done on one of my kids. Yet, the vet still thinks he may have liver issues. He told me that bile acid tests often aren't that accurate. Has anyone else heard this before?[/B]


Dogs can have liver disease with normal bile acids. 

Bile acids is a good screening test for liver shunt, but not for all liver disease. 

Bile acids can fluctuate which is why it is not a good monitoring test for dogs with liver disease (and especially MVD dogs). 

If there is a question, an ammonia tolerance test and abdominal ultrasound would be the next steps.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=128711
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There was a nice article on Vicki Fierheller of Four Halls Kennels in the Fall 2005 issue of The Maltese Magazine.







That was the first I had ever heard of her. I guess because she is a Canadian breeder.


----------



## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

> Breeders already have problems in their lines and they aren't testing. If you think even some "top" breeders have healthy dogs, think again. They just keep it quiet.
> 
> Reputable breeders need to start testing and there are a few who have.
> 
> ...


One of the best posts I've ever read on this forum!! BRAVO!!!!

Some random thoughts:

As a breeder...if you truly are breeding for the betterment of the breed, and if you truly care about not only the puppies you produce but the people who are opening their hearts to a life that you are responsible for creating, then what is the big deal about running a few tests? Why put a family thru the heartbreak of living with a chronically ill dog? And I'm sorry but I don't buy the "there aren't any health issues in my lines" mentality...if that's the case, then put your money where your mouth is and run the tests.

As a puppy buyer...if you know there are health issues in the breed and that there are tests that can rule out or significantly decrease the chances of your puppy developing one of these issues, would you not ask that the breeder provide you with the testing results on the sire, dam and the puppy itself? Even if it is at your own expense...and even if it meant you walked away from the puppy in the end? Would it give you any peace of mind knowing that your breeder tried their very best and took every every available precaution to provide you with the healthiest dog possible?

Did my breeder do any health testing? No. Does that make her a "bad" breeder? No. Does that mean that I'm a bad person or I was "wrong" because I went to a breeder that didn't do testing? No...and I don't think that anyone on here is saying that. But why is it so wrong to raise this issue? I would have thought that this would be an interesting, informative topic to bring up...and instead we have people who are taking it personally and getting all upset. No one is FORCING anyone to test their breeding dogs, no one is FORCING people not to get puppies from breeders who don't test. But what is the harm in being proactive? Do I need to wait for a litter of puppies to be born with liver shunts before I start testing...or do I test NOW and take the steps necessary to help insure it doesn't happen in the first place?

And as usual, feel free to PM me with any comments, nasty or otherwise.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129407
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I always enjoy your posts and think you make a lot of sense on this one, too. Excellent points.


----------



## RexsMom (Jun 8, 2005)

> I have mentioned many times... the breeders I got Kodie from did NO testing what so ever!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Kodie is beautiful!


----------



## paris'mom (Jul 14, 2004)

I, for one, have been reading this discussion topic and absorbing it like a sponge.

That's why, on 12/20th, both boys will go in for their chem panel test and later (when the civilian vet has an opening) bile acids test.

Scared...I want to know, but I don't want to know... You know?









Hopefully I won't find out anything too bad.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=128720
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But poor little Kodie has MVD (liver disease). 

That's why, as Pippin's Mom says, if breeders tested, they could spare many people the heartbreak of living with a chronically ill dog.

2MaltMom, don't be nervous about the tests. Knowing that there is a potential for problems before symptoms appear could give you the opportunity to troubleshoot and do some preventative care, something even as simple as a change of diet or adding a supplement. Just like knowing early on a puppy has a luxating patella and keeping him from jumping on and off furniture can often prevent knee surgery later on.

Knowledge is power!


----------



## paris'mom (Jul 14, 2004)

> 2MaltMom, don't be nervous about the tests. Knowing that there is a potential for problems before symptoms appear could give you the opportunity to troubleshoot and do some preventative care, something even as simple as a change of diet or adding a supplement. Just like knowing early on a puppy has a luxating patella and keeping him from jumping on and off furniture can often prevent knee surgery later on.
> 
> Knowledge is power![/B]


Marj,
I'm 2Maltese2Love (formerly Paris'Mom- aka Mimi) Confused yet?








You're right, knowledge is power, and I am going to do it.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Found this list of genetic conditions Maltese are prone too and what tests are recommended before breeding.

Congenital and Genetic Conditions found with greater than average frequency in the Maltese (point to name for description):

Aberrant cilia Autoimmune Lymphocytic Thyroiditis Blindness Cryptorchidism Deafness Distichiasis Epiphora Glaucoma Hip Dysplasia Hypoglycemia Patellar Luxation Portosystemic Shunt Progressive Retinal Atrophy Retinal Dysplasia Thyroiditis von Willebrands Disease White dog shaker syndrome 



Following are health screenings often performed on breeding Maltese adults; choosing a puppy from a breeder who tests parents for health can help avoid future health problems in your puppy:

BAER Hearing Test 
CERF Screening (Canine Eye Research Foundation) 
Hip Dysplasia (OFA or PennHIP) 
Patellar Luxation Test 
Thyroid Function Test (blood test) 
vonWillebrand's Disease (vWD) (factor antigen test) 

Here's another list from Foxstone Maltese:

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/maltese_faqs.htm#25.


----------



## shasbury (Nov 10, 2004)

I did not ask about testing before I got Lilly. The lady I got her from was a small home breeder. I would probably ask if I were to get another furbaby but not upset that I didn't this time. I did talk with her a lot and she was great. I even went to visit my Lilly 3 times before I picked her up for about an hour each time to make sure we were right for each other. She was the one and the name I had picked was even the name they had given her. When I walked in the first time she came right to me. They said she didn't do that with any one else that had come. She just cuddled up to me. 
I guess when I got her those things were all that I needed. I knew that her parents were in good health and saw their papers and she had been to the vet with a clean health report and my vet saw her and looked her over good. 

I guess we learn and look for differant things at differant times.
This is a really interesting topic and I love to read everyones ideas and experiences.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

"I knew that her parents were in good health and saw their papers and she had been to the vet with a clean health report and my vet saw her and looked her over good. "

The problem is that a vet can't tell from a physical exam whether or not a puppy is carrying "genetic time bombs" that may not go off for years. Only blood tests that screen for genetic markers can do that. A dog can be perfectly healthy for years like my Lady was. Lady seemed to have dodged the genetic bullets, too, until right before her 5th birthday. Then she was dx with epilepsy and diabetes a year & 1/2 later.

That's why healthy looking parents don't mean anything, either, especially if they are young.

And your vet wasn't able to see Lilly's liver so he has no idea if it's healthy or not. Liver disease is very common in Maltese and can be hard to detect. Blood tests (bile acids) can be very helpful, but it often takes a biopsy to diagnose a liver shunt.

I posted an article in the breeder section about backyard breeders (or home breeders) which explained why they can be the nicest people in the world and treat their dogs like royalty, but still produce genetically flawed puppies.

And papers, unfortunately don't mean much, especially if they are anything but AKC papers. They can't even guarentee that the puppy you purchased is a purebred.

The advantage to testing is that for a few hundred dollars, it can save a potential puppy buyer a huge amount of vet bills and heartbreak. No testing, especially if the puppy comes from a backyard breeder, is sort of like buying a new car just because it's been washed and waxed and the tires look good IMO.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

And, I ask again, where are these breeders who do the testing?


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> And, I ask again, where are these breeders who do the testing?[/B]


Beats the heck outta me! 

Actually, if you see JMM's earlier response, she says Rhapsody and Four Halls are starting genetic testing. Charmypoo said that Four Halls had been testing for quite some time. Saltymalty said her breeder tested the male, although she didn't name the breeder.

Hopefully when and if I am ever in the market for a puppy, genetic testing will be an accepted practice by reputable breeders. If not, I would do what another poster suggested and do the testing myself with the agreement that the cost be deducted from the price of the puppy.

To me, that would incentive for breeders to get the parents tested as it would be less expensive to do that than to lose a few hundred dollars on every puppy you sold.

Quite honestly, I would pay for it even if a breeder was unwilling to reimburse me. After what I have been through with my Lady, I would do anything to avoid a repeat. I could never come even close to putting a monetary value on the tears I have shed or that awful heart-in-my-throat feeling I have every single time I put the key in the lock after coming home from work, not knowing what I will find.


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=133900
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marj - That last paragraph just breaks my heart. Bless you and your little Lady...Hugs


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Well, I am very encouraged. I went to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and searched their database for Maltese who had been tested. There are 5 pages of them, including Rhapsody and Four Halls, as mentioned before. Apparently Chrisman, Divine, and Sunncrest, among others, are also testing.

Here's the link to the database.

http://www.offa.org/search.html

So it's not a wild goose chase afterall!


----------



## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

If anyone is interested it is possible to do a search on the OFA site (www.offa.org) to get an idea who is doing the testing. One disclaimer, just because a breeder is not in the OFA database does not mean they didn't health test, it just means that they didn't pay the extra $15.00 (for whatever reason) to have the results added to the database. Marge made a comment about the cost of health testing, I just had some testing done on my havanese here in Chicago and would be happy to give you an idea how much some of these tests run:

BAER: $47.00 for test, $15.00 to register with OFA
CERF: $36.00 for test, $10.50 to register in CERF database 
OFA patellas, cbc/chem panel with fasting bile acids: $74.00 for all testing, $15.00 to register patellas w/OFA
OFA cardiac: $44.00 for test from cardiologist, $15.00 to register in OFA database

So yes, the testing does add up...but personally (and obviously), I think it's worth every penny.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I just posted the link to the OFA database.

The price of testing you posted is extremely reasonable. I spend that in one month on medications and vet bills!


----------



## Fenway's Momma (Dec 6, 2005)

I am obviously new to this, but was wondering what tests I should have done. I read the list from JMM and from Pippensmom. But thought that I read somewhere in this thread that they need to be a certain age for some tests? I am more then willing to pay for the tests, but am confused about comments about the stress it puts on the dogs and the age they should be for the tests. What test are the most important to get first, or should they be done all at once? Forgive me for being naive, but I would like to do as much as I can to insure that Fenway is a healthy little guy. thanks.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> If anyone is interested it is possible to do a search on the OFA site (www.offa.org) to get an idea who is doing the testing. One disclaimer, just because a breeder is not in the OFA database does not mean they didn't health test, it just means that they didn't pay the extra $15.00 (for whatever reason) to have the results added to the database. Marge made a comment about the cost of health testing, I just had some testing done on my havanese here in Chicago and would be happy to give you an idea how much some of these tests run:
> 
> BAER: $47.00 for test, $15.00 to register with OFA
> CERF: $36.00 for test, $10.50 to register in CERF database
> ...



Gee, you are charged less in your area than I am here for the bloodwork. 
I think you are right in that there may be many more out there who just didn't pay the extra fee or go the extra mile to have the form completed. I think there are just something around eighty who have paid to get the certification, according to the information Lady posted. I know I'm just starting with this myself, yet my vet has checked all patellas. Makes me wish I would have done the certification as I went along.


----------

