# Raw Chicken Bones



## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

I just tried it tonight. First I wanted to see how he would respond to it. I took the meat off a chicken leg (tonights dinner) and gave him the bone. At first he really didn't know what to do with it and licked it a few times. Then after about a minutes he started chewing it. Then he took it to his special spot where he likes to eat his treats and he chewed it all up. He ate the ends of it. I think it's good for the teethers. Since he liked it so much, I took the meat off of about six bones and put them in a freezer bag in the freezer. I think frozen would be REALLY good for when their adult teeth are trying to burst through, which is now for Max.

The beef soup bone he tried this week he couldn't really break apart, but he loved it.

NO cooking bones....but, still observe them while they chew. If you are worried about choking I read more dogs choke on dry kibble than anything else. So, I guess just watch them.


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## mousern (Apr 18, 2005)

I've been giving all four of my furkids chopped up chicken wings for over two months now. I use the smaller pieces from the wing tips as well as some smaller chopped sections from the mid-wing for the little ones and the two older (larger) ones get the drumette and the rest of the mid-wing in chopped pieces. I just have too make sure that the cartilage is cut up as we had one choking incident with Corky (on the joint) because she refuses to chew half the time (she's also missing the majority of her teeth). The little ones do just fine with the chicken.

Bogey, who had really bad breath before starting the Suzies Tartar Liquid and had some slight doggy breath still, has had amazing results from the bones. There is no noted tartar buildup now, and his breath is totally kissably fresh. 

I guess I should add that they get the meat and bone. Everything that I have read has recommended wings or necks for smaller dogs (Bogey is 18#, Corky is 12#, Ally is 4.5# and Deni is 3.5#) rather than the larger bones. I can't find necks easily where I live, so the wings do for us. HTH.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

I do not want to start a big whoop-de-doo here but I did want to just state an opinion about the "raw" bones. I know there was a big craze a while back about BARF (bones and raw food.) I did a lot of homework on the subject and I am NOT convenienced that raw chicken with or without the bones is good for our babies. Without going on and on trying to win anyone to my opinion I just wanted to ask the mommy's who choose this for their baby(s) to please wash their little faces and paws so that bacteria does not grow. Salmonella is a nasty bacteria that could be very detrimental to small dogs. I know that the people who back up this program will try to justify it with statements like, "dogs in the wild." Maltese have been house/lap dogs for centuries and not accustomed to eating stuff that larger "outside" or "stray" dogs might eat. Please be very careful. 

In my honest opinion, there are many "safe(er)" products available in today's market. Dogs do not have to ingest what they chew in order for it to be beneficial to their dental health. 

Again, this is just my opinion.


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## mousern (Apr 18, 2005)

I fully agree with you regarding the bacteria. It's not only detrimental to the kids if they're not cleaned up afterwards, but it can be detrimental to the human caring for them should the furkid come up an lick them on the face or on/near the mouth after having had the raw chicken. When I first talked to my vet about it, she stressed that because she knows people from her show life that have come down with salmonella just because of that.


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

I am glad you have found something that your babies like and helps with their teeth issues (and breath too). I say each owner is responsible for their babies, and we all must make our own decisions. I am grateful that we have such a knowledgeable board to help us with trying to do what is best for each of our babies.
As with anything these tiny fluff butts eat/digest, I think we all need to be very careful and watch closely. I think about it like their throat sizes are the same/close to that of an infant and I remember how closely I would watch the amount that I allowed to go into their mouths and try to do similiar with my furbabies.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

Yup. I looked into doing the BARF diet for my dogs....my vet advised against it. And then the whole thing with my brother happened.

I don't know if you remember me posting about my brother (who has 2 Rotties) who fed the BARF diet and got extremely ill and after a trip to the ER- it was decided to be side effects of the BARF diet. (Bacteria) After he got sick, I decided it wasn't worth it. Especially since I have kids, and it could make them quite ill. 

And, I believe the Maltese were never meant to be a "wild" breed. LOL 

But to each their own... right?


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

You know, I read so much conflicting information out there, I never know what to believe. I read, well if they lick their own wee wee and hiney their tummies are stronger than ours?? 

I dont know, he loved both types of bones, but I will tell you, I couldn't help not worrying if he would get sick afterwards or not...all night, too.

I guess it's not worth the agravation of the worry and the possibility of getting sick. I will have to find a tooth paste he loves like a treat and learn to use it with the finger brush. I hope there are some edible ones out there.

My friends Malti lost all his teeth because all he would eat was Kibble and Bits and Pupperoni as a treat, it doesn't get worse than that. Both are kinda soft foods, and crap at that.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Licking their own peepee is a whole different thing. It probably may have some germs but not bacteria. And our babies have different enzymes in their mouths than we do that kills germs. So nobody should compare the peepee residue with bacteria left over from raw chicken.


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

I would like to also say that chicken bones raw or cooked are not really safe for our little dogs or big dogs either according to what my vet told me. These small bones have a tendency to splinter and become lodged in the dog's entestial area and could cause serious internal injuries.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

> I would like to also say that chicken bones raw or cooked are not really safe for our little dogs or big dogs either according to what my vet told me. These small bones have a tendency to splinter and become lodged in the dog's entestial area and could cause serious internal injuries.
> 
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> 
> ...



Well, the you are right about the chicken bones. When he was done with it, you had to see the sharp pieces he left behind. They were as sharp as tooth picks. Not good. He won't be getting that again.

With the beef stew bones, those were good, he couldn't even chip anything off of that just chew, it was too strong. His breath smelled nice and milky, though.

Very interesting facts on Bacteria:
(I am reading a bit more to learn about it.)
http://www.ccc.govt.nz/Health/foods3.asp

I have read that comercial dog food companies also have bacteria in their dry food. Something like 37%.
Also, dogs who eat poop, there is bacteria in poop, yet they survive eating it?? It's on that first link.

They say cooking food above 104 degrees kills all the enzymes that are needed in raw meat. BUT, if you cook it between 80-100 degrees you will kill the bacteria. 

Can we just cook some beef bones at 80 degrees to kill the bacteria and give it to our dogs, it's still relatively raw, just bacteria free, right???

So, confusing. Would love to continue giving him the raw bones for the benefits without the worry.

Thoughts?


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

No feeding raw bones or cooked bones here. Mr Alex does not want to get dirty paws to hold the bones himself. And we are too old to lay on the floor and hold the bones for him. That's no joke.







He has done just fine without bones. His teeth are in good shape even after 8 years. But he had a professional cleaning at least every 2 years since he was 2 years old. This year he had two.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

hee-hee....does he get his teeth brushed by mom?

Beef bone not very messy, I washed it off and took most of the bloody meat off. Same reason,...messy.


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## doctorcathy (May 17, 2004)

i'd be scared of frozen bones chipping their teeth, you know?

my neighbor says that he gets the raw thigh bonefrom the super market and gives it to his dog. i really want to do it...but my mom and sis think its too savage-like.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

> i'd be scared of frozen bones chipping their teeth, you know?
> 
> my neighbor says that he gets the raw thigh bonefrom the super market and gives it to his dog. i really want to do it...but my mom and sis think its too savage-like.
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> ...


I just read an article a vet wrote about dry food vs. raw...while she disagreed with using the raw food diet, she agreed that raw bones is good for the dogs and she did reccomend it.

Another article I read stated commercial dog food companies also are contaminated with salmonella and other bacteria...although, they won't admit it. They do cook to kill bacteria but the meat comes in to the facilities with the bacteria and after the food is cooked it is once again exposed to the primary bacteria...so, it's not perfect, either.

As far as savage is concerned...I can see how it would seem that way...but seeing Max keep his bone in his mouth and chew for so long...it's actually cute. The beef bone, anyway. Uncooked bones are not as hard.

Tell your mom and sis, what do they think of dogs eating other dog's poo?? Many do that, you know...and the bacteria there...well, you can imagine. Thankfully, Max isn't into poo. I do like the bone benefits, though.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

Dry dog food companies are allowed to use dead animals, euthenized animals and such in their food. So, animals aren't slaughtered just to go into our pets foods. Pretty gross, too huh?

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/faq.htm


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

"I just read an article a vet wrote about dry food vs. raw...while she disagreed with using the raw food diet, she agreed that raw bones is good for the dogs and she did reccomend it."

Did this article say small or toy dogs or did it just say dogs? There is a world of difference in a 80--90 Lab and a 6 lb. Maltese. 

"Another article I read stated commercial dog food companies also are contaminated with salmonella and other bacteria...although, they won't admit it. They do cook to kill bacteria but the meat comes in to the facilities with the bacteria and after the food is cooked it is once again exposed to the primary bacteria...so, it's not perfect, either."

The question about whether the meat/bones are perfect or not was not the issue, salmonella can and most likely is present even in chicken bought for human comsumption in the local grocery stores. COOKING kills bacteria. Miss handling causes even humans to get sick. We all know to wash our hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken to prevent illness, so why would we turn around and give this "raw" chicken to our dog? Makes ABSOLUTELY NO sense to me.

"As far as savage is concerned...I can see how it would seem that way...but seeing Max keep his bone in his mouth and chew for so long...it's actually cute. The beef bone, anyway. Uncooked bones are not as hard."

Nylabone makes artifical bones that are just as beneficial to our babies as the actual raw stuff. They even come in flavors, both eatable and noneatable. With these products so readily available why would we put our baby's health at risk?

"Tell your mom and sis, what do they think of dogs eating other dog's poo?? Many do that, you know...and the bacteria there...well, you can imagine. Thankfully, Max isn't into poo. I do like the bone benefits, though."

Yes SOME dogs do have a taste for poo, thankfully I have NEVER had to deal with that. As far as I know those pet owners who have this issue try their best to eliminate the problem. Again, this is a behavior that is addressed and not encouraged. Whole different "family" of bacterium. NOT SALMONELLA.

In your following post you wrote about commercial dog food companies using euthanized animals in their foods. This is absolutely not true. It may have been at one time, but not today. Anyway, when we speak of commercial dry dog foods we are speaking of "high end" foods or even the lesser of the high ends. Today when a pet is taken in to be euthanized and the owner does not want the body returned these bodies are sent for cremation. 

We all know that you can read anything you want on the web today. This does not automatically make the information true. It is important for us to know the reliability of the source before making decisions. Especially decisions that could put our beloved pet in jeopardy. 

All this said, you seem pretty "heck bent" on giving your baby raw bones. I do not understand why you would want to even have his hair compromised (stained) from doing such let alone the health issue. All I have to say in conclusion is: When he gets sick from the raw bones you had better take along your check book because it ain't going be cheap. Hopefully you have a credit card that is not maxed out. 

I am not being nasty here, it is just out of my comprehension why anyone who has made a thread asking people's opinion and after receiving many discussing the cons on the subject that you are still considering raw. The statements here are not directed at you personally, just made from many months of reading. I am sure if you go into the archives you will be able to find lots more info on this subject. Please do not take my word for it, do your own homework.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

I guess I should have added......my Sassy was 3 years old on Dec. 3rd. Her annual checkups include a dental exam, and sometimes if we are in there for another reason I will have Dr. B look at her teeth. She has not to this day had to have her teeth cleaned. Now that is not to say that she will not need it this year. After all she is a toy breed and she is 3 years old. I think that some little dogs are maybe more prone to dental problems than others. Even some on our forum have mentioned that their younger dogs have had to have their teeth cleaned at a very young age. So it seems that some tooth or dental issues may be hereditary while some is diet related. MaxMommy I would probably just keep a close eye on his teeth and see what is or is not going on inside that sweet little mouth. He may be like Sassy and not prone to a lot of tartat buildup. Also, brushing is an option.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

Do my homework?? You must be kidding me, that is all I have been doing.

As far as vet bills are concerned, I see alot of medical issues here related to commercial foods, I doubt those bills are less.

In fact so called "premium" brands (whick I also am feeding) are PROCESSED foods, even if it is at a tad higher grade. There seems to be just as much confusion as which is best or worse even with that. It also has been PROVEN that dogs today on so called premium foods have a shorter life span with just as many medical issues. It is just more "convenient" to just supply "premium" food, this I agree with because I too find it more convenient...is it healtheir....there is MUCH debate about that. If you think you SOLVED that debate, obviously you must be alot more educated than most who have researched the issue including vets on both sides of the fence. The vet that wrote that particular article was talking about all breeds.

There is just as much pro and con info on dry (including PREMIUM) food as there is on raw foods. Have you done your homework? How many health issues on this board?? Has anyone linked it to the "premium" food, not always but I assure you some of those issues come from the food we feed...the less serious being allergice reactions, tummy problems, tear problems, ear problems, skin problems, you name it...food has some fault there. Choking majority of problems comes from DRY kibble more than raw....look it up.

This is the article and the rebuttal. For a pro, notice the food companies she credits, this is where alot of the bigger funding of studies goes to...I am sure the outcomes of thier findings are made to benefit their billion dollar companies or the info will not get to you, guaranteed. As in human pharmaceutical companies, there is alot of money behind them...but, do people die from pharmaceutical issues? That is what the court system is there for, unfortunately you find out too late.

http://www.rawlearning.com/responsetomary.html

I put the question out there, and alot of the negative arguements don't appear very solid, they are based on fears and what ifs, nothing solid at all, not even yours.

As far as "doing my homework", as a matter of fact, I have been doing alot of research, it happens to be something I am good at. I also like to hear first hand from those who supplement their dry PREMIUM feeding with some added raw...balance is good in anything...even for us. I will tell you this, though..."homework" never ends, it's a life long process...health is somethiing I have a great interest in, anyway...human and animal. Even if the answers I learn are not solid enough, I always learn something new. I can't understand why you sound so offended....if you are satisfied with what you feed, good for you. Obviously, I am still searching....and interested in some opinions...helps the learning process.

Here is another animal HEALTH center's reccomendations:
http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/bonecomp.html

There is more pushing to feed commercial for obvious profit reasons...local butchers don't have that kind of advertising pull.

While I have no intentions switching to all raw (too much to do, not always convenient) I wouldn't mind supplimenting a raw bone once a week. After all, some vinegar and water will kill any remaining bacteria, which we have everywhere anyway. Why deny my dog something beneficial to his health...and the pro's about feeding bones far out weigh the cons. From my homework, anyway.

By the way, when a dog eats his dry food than drinks water afterward, it can cause swelling in the belly, (obviously) and this can cause health issues. Adding water before they eat can cause bacteria in the food, so which to watch out for....well, I guess we have to weigh the consequences, don't we???

Have you read the studies that link CANCER to dry food feeding, probably not.
Another doctor's page:
http://www.mercola.com/2005/feb/19/pet_chew_treats.htm

If bringing up the subject causes some debate, well, we can never be enough educated when it comes to our little furbabies, or would you disagree with that, too.

Homework never ends, dear...and if you think you are done with yours, I sujest you keep your credit card ready...cuz it won't be cheap. May yours have a nice healthy life even without the fresh stuff.

oh, and diseased and death from injury animals ARE used for dry food, look it up...don't take my word for it.
I ALWAYS look stuff up,...more thann a few times....research training.









Obviously, I take this seriously, or I wouldn't even be reading this stuff...easier to pretend and just wing it with "premium".....easier, too. (for now, anyway)

Sorry so long...used to writing research papers.









Page discribing euthanized animals and road kill that our furbabies are eating:
http://www.newstarget.com/012647.html


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

p.s.-- I do have the flavored nylabone (ofcourse, I will try anything for good teeth) but, it's sitting there collecting dust...he does not like it. Even tried to entice him with putting some peanut butter on it...and nothing...does not like it..or the peanut butter for that matter.

Always looking for something new or old but hopefully the best I can provide. Will always be learning, perhaps not sharing as much anymore.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

> Do my homework?? You must be kidding me, that is all I have been doing.
> 
> As far as vet bills are concerned, I see alot of medical issues here related to commercial foods, I doubt those bills are less.
> 
> ...


Okay, well I think there has been just about enough said by all involved here. No reason to go on and on about issues that do not belong in this thread. From the accusations and assumptions that you made you may feel the need to continue, but as for me I come here to the forum to have fun and learn about issues concerning Maltese. I can truthfully say that I have learned absolutely nothing in this thread. The reading in the links is old news, you see "dear," (just using your phrase here) I too read. 

Hijacking to another notch......aren't you the same person that suggested to someone that she should "drag him on his butt" when she asked why her baby would sit at the curb and not want to walk on leash? On second thought, don't even bother answering that. Your source was also talking about "all breeds." Which in reality mostly means larger breeds. Toy breeds are another issue.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> "We all know that you can read anything you want on the web today. This does not automatically make the information true. It is important for us to know the reliability of the source before making decisions. Especially decisions that could put our beloved pet in jeopardy.[/B]


I am not getting involved in this discussion at all (since I think Nylabones, bullysticks and greenies are enough for my dog to chew on). But I just wanted to mention that way tooo often on this forum I see people posting random information found on the web. Its important to look at the source and the reason for writing it -- everyone has different motives. Its way too easy to google anything and just because you find some info on the web, does not make it at all legitimate.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

> Hijacking to another notch......aren't you the same person that suggested to someone that she should "drag him on his butt" when she asked why her baby would sit at the curb and not want to walk on leash? On second thought, don't even bother answering that. Your source was also talking about "all breeds." Which in reality mostly means larger breeds. Toy breeds are another issue. [/B]


It was in JEST, stop grasping at straws. I didn't think YOU would learn anything, anyway.
Someone did send me a pm expressing that you always tend to be on the arrogant side, pretty obvious.
OH and your suggestion (genious), Koa might be cold so he lies on the COLD ground, yeah that makes sense. hello!


Three years being an owner of a malti, hardly makes you an expert. Apparently you think it does.

This thread doesn't belong here?? Last I checked it was the food section, if you didn't care for the topic you could have just passed it on. Are you the self elected SM police or somehting....

It is quite arrogant to try to tell people what they should or should not discuss, we'll see what expert tips you happen to come up with because I have yet to see anything.

This convo is so over. bye bye!


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## joe (Jan 5, 2003)

> It is quite arrogant to try to tell people what they should or should not discuss, we'll see what expert tips you happen to come up with because I have yet to see anything.
> 
> This convo is so over. bye bye![/B]


can we not have a plain discussion here anymore? lets ALL stick to topic and discuss, no need for the personal shots from anyone


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