# I still have time to say NO!



## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I've been grooming Zoe now for over 3 years, and Jett ever since I've had him. I'm so darned particular and was unhappy with the cuts other groomers have done, and even with how they have treated Zoe. Well, there was one groomer who was AWESOME with Zoe, but gave her more of a terrior cut and a Mohwak. :w00t:

But with opening my boutique, I'm working 6 days a week right now and to spend half a day grooming my two on my only day off is just a bit...well....daunting. I still plan on giving them their weekly baths, but they are both in desperate need of a trim. However, I'm not paying myself yet, you know how it is with a new business, so I really can't afford a groomer right now. However, my new neighbor is from Japan and was a professional groomer in Japan! Her english is very good, but there is still a bit of a language barrier. Groomers in Japan have to go through a fairly rigourous amount of schooling and training. She told me she still wants to keep her skills up and will groom my babies for $20 each!! So I made arrangements for her to groom them on Monday. She'll pretty much have them in her house all day, but will have a key to my house if they are being a whiney nuisance at her house. LOL AFTER I made the arrangements, she told me the Maltese cut in Japan is different then here in the States. She'll thin the neck more than I have been, which I think will be ok since I've felt all along I haven't been thinning the neck enough. The she said Malts in Japan often have poodle feet!! :w00t: I said NOOOOOOOO!!! No poodle feet! :thmbdn: Then I showed her a picture of a Teddy Bear cut that I like from "Notes From the Grooming Table" and asked if she could do them like that, keeping Zoe more around 1 3/4 to 2" and Jett maybe 1 1/2" to 1 3/4".

Ok, the thought of not having to spend most of my only day off grooming my babies has me postively giddy!! But now I'm really having second thoughts. What should I do??? Guess I'm just needing some reassurance.


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## makettle29 (Nov 12, 2005)

IMO.......  

Hair grows back, so I wouldn't stress over the final look. I'd be more concerned with wether or not she'll be a good custodian and return happy healthy pups at the end of the day, only you know that! In general I'm all for doing what it takes to give yourself a break and it sounds like you could use help.

good luck!

mary anna herk and theena


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## Elegant (Jul 17, 2004)

Hello!
You know, hair always grows back, but it is harder to regain sanity...I say go for it! :w00t: 
And, if she does a good job you can get grooming done for pretty cheap AND get time off...I don't see anything wrong with this! 
*Disclaimer: Chanel's hair is in a puppy cut and I have NEVER been able to grow her hair out for very long...so this advice is coming from someone who needs MANAGEABLE hair at this point...* Oh, and I would love a Japanese grooming for Chanel...except I agree, NO POODLE FEET!!! :blink: 

Also, not that it matters THAT much, but how will your neighbor feel about you asking her to groom your babies and then end up saying no...will she be hurt?


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

The groomer I used for over 3 years (before we moved) lived & worked/groomed in Japan for a while, and has hired a Japanese lady for her salon. They are both fantastic! Of course, this isn't a guarantee your neighbour will be excellent also, but I would give her a go. IMO Japanese trained groomers rate very high in my books!


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## cloey70 (Jan 6, 2008)

Why not have her just bath them once a week for you, and you cut them once a month. Then you only have once a month of doing grooming. I think bathing is time consuming, and I send Clifford out for that, and I only pay $15 a week for that. I find it so worth it! Maybe the groomer would bath them for $10 every 10 days. Just a thought! That way you don't have a terrible cut to deal with. Sounds like she has different plans in mind.


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## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

I use to have CeeCee in full cut but now that she is cut short, I just love it....I left hair on her legs, body short and medium on her face and ears~~~She is happier and I am happier at bath time!!!! I will never go back to long. Go for it!!!!!


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## cloey70 (Jan 6, 2008)

Tell her to give you the lamb cut, can't go wrong with that. Here is an example: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35256. I love Bentley and Brighton's cut. I cut Clifford like this, and will never do it any different, It is so easy to manage. If you like it, print it and give it to her.. She couldn't possibly make any error with those pics, or find a pic you like and print it for her. Good Luck with your decision, and go for it, it will grow back.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Sounds good.

I wish I could find a Japanese groomer...


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

QUOTE (makettle29 @ Jul 19 2008, 07:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608012


> IMO.......
> 
> Hair grows back, so I wouldn't stress over the final look. I'd be more concerned with wether or not she'll be a good custodian and return happy healthy pups at the end of the day, only you know that! In general I'm all for doing what it takes to give yourself a break and it sounds like you could use help.
> 
> ...


She's absolutely wonderful with my babies and she often watches friends dogs for them when they go back to visit friends and family in Japan. So I've had plenty of opportunities to see her with her dog, my two, as well as others that she often has for more than 3 weeks at a time. I have no worries about how she'll treat and care for my two.

QUOTE (Elegant @ Jul 19 2008, 07:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608013


> Also, not that it matters THAT much, but how will your neighbor feel about you asking her to groom your babies and then end up saying no...will she be hurt?[/B]


That is probably the reason I'm stressing the most. I don't want to hurt her feelings if I'm not happy. And I'm super picky on how my babies are groomed.

QUOTE (Harley & Dakotas Mum @ Jul 19 2008, 07:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608014


> The groomer I used for over 3 years (before we moved) lived & worked/groomed in Japan for a while, and has hired a Japanese lady for her salon. They are both fantastic! Of course, this isn't a guarantee your neighbour will be excellent also, but I would give her a go. IMO Japanese trained groomers rate very high in my books![/B]


My thinking exactly. I was at a grooming conference in Chicago a couple of years ago and the master groomer there was talking about the grooming schools in Japan and how, if I remember correctly, they're in school for a full year before they're even allowed to touch a dog. And he was talking about how when they scissor a dog, it's such an art form, the hand and arm stays perfectly still and only the thumb moves.

QUOTE (cloey70 @ Jul 19 2008, 07:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608019


> Why not have her just bath them once a week for you, and you cut them once a month. Then you only have once a month of doing grooming. I think bathing is time consuming, and I send Clifford out for that, and I only pay $15 a week for that. I find it so worth it! Maybe the groomer would bath them for $10 every 10 days. Just a thought! That way you don't have a terrible cut to deal with. Sounds like she has different plans in mind.[/B]


I can bathe both of mine, and blow them dry in around an hour. So that's not a big deal to me. But when I bathe & groom, well it takes me a little over 2 hours per dog. So that's a major chunk of time.

QUOTE (CeeCee's Mom @ Jul 19 2008, 08:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608023


> I use to have CeeCee in full cut but now that she is cut short, I just love it....I left hair on her legs, body short and medium on her face and ears~~~She is happier and I am happier at bath time!!!! I will never go back to long. Go for it!!!!![/B]


I know it's hard to tell in the pics in my siggy, but both of mine are in what I call a 'long puppy cut' or a teddy bear cut. They are happy and comfortable in that type of cut. Honestly, when Zoe had shorter cuts back when I was still trying to find a good groomer, she would come home embarrased. But I can also tell when she is beginning to be unhappy becauseh her hair is getting too long. LOL I know...I'm nuts!! :wacko1:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

QUOTE (cloey70 @ Jul 19 2008, 08:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608031


> Tell her to give you the lamb cut, can't go wrong with that. Here is an example: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35256. I love Bentley and Brighton's cut. I cut Clifford like this, and will never do it any different, It is so easy to manage. If you like it, print it and give it to her.. She couldn't possibly make any error with those pics, or find a pic you like and print it for her. Good Luck with your decision, and go for it, it will grow back.[/B]


Way back when, that was called the 'Cosy Cut'. :wub: I may end up doing that since mine are dressed at the store all day long. But I'm not quite ready yet. I love the fluffy Teddy Bear cut.


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## Deborah (Jan 8, 2006)

I would say go ahead and let the lady groom your babies. The hair will grow back. Just show her a picture of what you like.


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## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

Oh good lord thankfully she told you about the poodle feet so you could put a quick end to that. Can you imagine? *shivers* :shocked: 
I really think that you should schedule the first grooming on your day off so that you can be there to direct her.


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

You sound really comfortable with her. I say give it go, if it works out, it will be worth it for you not to have the stress of having to groom them yourself. Besides it sounds like your neighbor will work with you if there is something about the cut you don't like. 

My BF lives in Crown Point, IN and i'm thinking we may have to take a day trip to your boutique. I have this weird need to go to every doggy boutique within a hundred mile radius of me... :brownbag: 

Leslie


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

I really LOVE Japanese style , I'd do it - I'll bet she does an AMAZING job  Sarah P.S Every dog in Japan that I saw looked so CUTE


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## thinkpink (Sep 25, 2004)

I'd do it. Like the others said it will always grow back if you don't like it. I have a feeling you'll be happy with it though.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

QUOTE (Deborah @ Jul 19 2008, 08:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608041


> I would say go ahead and let the lady groom your babies. The hair will grow back. Just show her a picture of what you like.[/B]


LOL...that from a woman who has in big bold letters in her siggy "PUT THE SCISSORS DOWN" just made me chuckle! :smrofl: 

QUOTE (PreciousPrince @ Jul 19 2008, 09:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608107


> Oh good lord thankfully she told you about the poodle feet so you could put a quick end to that. Can you imagine? *shivers* :shocked:
> I really think that you should schedule the first grooming on your day off so that you can be there to direct her.[/B]


My thought exactly!! I don't know what I'd have done if I had picked them up and they had poodle feet! I'd probably faint, right there! My only day off is Sunday and she doesn't groom on Sundays, but I'd love to be there.

QUOTE (WoofLife @ Jul 19 2008, 11:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608177


> You sound really comfortable with her. I say give it go, if it works out, it will be worth it for you not to have the stress of having to groom them yourself. Besides it sounds like your neighbor will work with you if there is something about the cut you don't like.
> 
> My BF lives in Crown Point, IN and i'm thinking we may have to take a day trip to your boutique. I have this weird need to go to every doggy boutique within a hundred mile radius of me... :brownbag:
> 
> Leslie[/B]


Oh please Leslie, come!! I'd love to meet you and Izzy, and am always loving SM meet ups!!

QUOTE (dogloverx3 @ Jul 20 2008, 04:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608276


> I really LOVE Japanese style , I'd do it - I'll bet she does an AMAZING job  Sarah P.S Every dog in Japan that I saw looked so CUTE[/B]


Now Sarah, you just surprised me the most! Wow, thought I knew what your response was going to be! LOL But somehow, your response gives me a little more assurance. It's amazing how hard it will be to let someone else do them after I've been doing it for so long.

QUOTE (tiffany @ Jul 20 2008, 10:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608320


> I'd do it. Like the others said it will always grow back if you don't like it. I have a feeling you'll be happy with it though.[/B]


If they turn out half as cute as your sweetheart, I'll be THRILLED!!!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

LOLOLOL...I got a call from the lady who is grooming Zoe & Jett today to tell me they were ready. I was so nervous because when she picked them up this morning, she said she wanted to take them for a walk around the neighborhood first, which I thought was a great idea. So I said, "wait just a moment and I'll get their harnesses". Guess the language barrier is greater than I thought. She said, "ok", and as I proceeded to go get their harnesses, she was half way down my drive way! LOL

So I sent my dad in to get them, and I didn't hear anything from him!! So I called him and asked..."so do they look any different?", to which his response was, "oh my, yes!" :w00t: :HistericalSmiley: 

So I have no idea what I'll find when I go pick them up at Grandma and Grandpa's, but their safe and sound. That's all that matters!


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## Missy&Maggie (Jun 17, 2007)

QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Jul 21 2008, 03:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=608899


> LOLOLOL...I got a call from the lady who is grooming Zoe & Jett today to tell me they were ready. I was so nervous because when she picked them up this morning, she said she wanted to take them for a walk around the neighborhood first, which I thought was a great idea. So I said, "wait just a moment and I'll get their harnesses". Guess the language barrier is greater than I thought. She said, "ok", and as I proceeded to go get their harnesses, she was half way down my drive way! LOL
> 
> So I sent my dad in to get them, and I didn't hear anything from him!! So I called him and asked..."so do they look any different?", to which his response was, "oh my, yes!" :w00t: :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> So I have no idea what I'll find when I go pick them up at Grandma and Grandpa's, but their safe and sound. That's all that matters![/B]


Hopefully, they are just pulling your leg. Remember is just hair and it does grown back. I hope that you like their haircuts! :grouphug: 

Do we get new Zoe and Jett pics?  I just adore little Jett!!!


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## Deborah (Jan 8, 2006)

LOL...that from a woman who has in big bold letters in her siggy "PUT THE SCISSORS DOWN" just made me chuckle! 

That would be because you did not see how badly I butchered poor Rylee.

You are taking your babies to a professional.


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

Crystal.....are you home YET??? :biggrin:


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## cloey70 (Jan 6, 2008)

Oh I am so anixious to see them, and post pics please. Oh I am so excited to see them, hurry!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Well...we'll just say that I'm glad I have access to LOTS AND LOTS OF CLOTHES!! LOL I told my mom and dad that it's a good thing they wear clothes at the store, and mom's response was..."but what do we do about Jett's face?". :HistericalSmiley: Apparantly he was not cooperative and gave her a hard time. It's so strange cuz it's Zoe who is normally the difficult one to groom and Jett's a breeze. They look a bit "poodley" and she actually shaved a few areas that I've never shaved. *shaking head in amazment* Zoe's been 'scooting' because her back end I'm sure feels so very different. LOL Zoe really doesn't look too bad. Jett's another story all together. His head is way too small for his body right now. She had told me in Japan they thin the neck more than I have been doing. Well, Zoe's collar is much looser than it had been and Jett's collar is HUGE on him! I'm assuming it's cuz Jett was not cooperative because his neck is SHAVED in front. And those pesky muzzle hairs that took FOREVER to grow out....well, we'll be growing them out again. *sigh* On the bright side....they won't need a haircut for a very very long time!

Hmmmm....I've got some gorgous beaded necklaces that would never have shown on them before. Maybe they'll need to wear them around the store for a few weeks. LOL


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Crystal ~ I haven't responded to this thread, but have been checking for pics ALL night :HistericalSmiley: 

Unlike most, I don't give a crap about the hair. As long as they're clean, matt-free, and healthy.

Of course the fosters are a different story. Mary would have my ass if I shaved them bald. :smrofl: 

Like others have stated. It will grow. I, on the other hand, wish it wouldn't ~ LMAO


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## Deborah (Jan 8, 2006)

:sorry: I wish things had worked out better.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jul 21 2008, 09:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609016


> Crystal ~ I haven't responded to this thread, but have been checking for pics ALL night :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> Unlike most, I don't give a crap about the hair. As long as they're clean, matt-free, and healthy.
> 
> ...


Deb you crack me up! I of course am glad that they are clean, matt-free and healthy! But they were clean, matt-free and healthy BEFORE they were groomed too! LOL Jett is VERY clingy and didn't want anything to do with mom and dad tonight when I got there, which of course hurt mom's feelings. I'm guessing he isn't over his separation anxiety as much as I thought he was. But hey, it's a start! 

And I don't think I'll be posting any pics for awhile! I might get thrown off SM for having poodles instead of Malts!! :smrofl: 

QUOTE (Deborah @ Jul 21 2008, 09:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609018


> :sorry: I wish things had worked out better.[/B]


Awe, thanks. Me too! Really, I'm not too upset. I'd prepared myself after hearing dad's response. LOL Just really wish she hadn't cut his muzzle like she did. That just takes forever to grow out and sticks up and is unruly for so long. Oh well! She was really doing me a favor and I really don't want to be ungrateful. Think I'll have my other friend from Japan who speaks English fluently maybe help communicate before I let her groom them again. Or should I say, IF I have her groom them again. All depends on how tired I am I guess! I really didn't realize how little she was understanding me until this morning. And I had told her to groom them how she felt they would look best, just no poodle feet. I was curious what she would do if I gave her a free hand.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Oh come on Crystal. If I can post pics of Henry's baboon ass, then you can post your babies.

I'm certain they look adorable. I'm thinking they look better than any of mine, on their best day :HistericalSmiley: 

Huggies to your little ones. They are so precious, nothing can get in the way of that. :wub:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Jul 21 2008, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609039


> Oh come on Crystal. If I can post pics of Henry's baboon ass, then you can post your babies.
> 
> I'm certain they look adorable. I'm thinking they look better than any of mine, on their best day :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> Huggies to your little ones. They are so precious, nothing can get in the way of that. :wub:[/B]


But Deb, mine have Henry's baboon ass now too. As well as a shaved neck and shaved spots right in front of their ears! Oh and not to mention the shaved inner thighs!! Poor Zoe keeps scootin' on the floor because she's NEVER been shaved in those areas and I'm sure it feels so very strange to her! :HistericalSmiley:


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

Oh Crystal I am sorry you are not happy with the kids' new hair do's. As for the baboon ass  My boys have one every time they are groomed, don't they call it the sanitary cut? I know it looks funny at first but I like that their dags don't get stuck in the hair when they poop  
You really need to show us a picture of Zoe and Jett, I am sure they look adorable as always :grouphug:


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

I'm sorry about the bad haircuts Crystal. I know it's just hair & will grow back, but it can really be disheartening the first few days afterward. Sounds like Jett & Zoe got all of Boo & Hannahs worst haircut mishaps all rolled into one. On Dec.1st, Hannah got the worst ever & although I took pics of her for proof of the disaster, I couldn't bring myself to post them. Her eyes had been "scalped", her little muzzle nearly shaved on top, with a droopy thin mustache.She looked like she had some kind of fatal illness.It took 3 mths for her face to look like Hannah again. There was no communication barrier to blame as the groomer was my regular groomer & was told to do the "usuall" same as last time haircut. I've come to the conclusion that some groomers just don't get it & will never get it. So she isn't allowed to ever touch their faces again, only trim up their bodies. I've had sooooo many bad chop jobs done to both Boo & Hannah. Boo even had a heart shaped bald spot on his chest & a chop job on his tail. They've had the dreaded baboon butt, been poodleized & schnauzerized & ended up with they're topknots right between their eyes. But yes, it does grow back & mostly it's us mommies that have to sweat it out as they go happily about their business being cute little fluffbutts.I think you're handling it much better than I ever did though. So sorry that happened to your beautiful babies. :grouphug:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

I just saw this post for the first time....so what's the ETA for pictures? are they really that bad?

I hope it grows back in quickly for you. Hey, show us pictures of them wearing clothes!


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

OOPSY - I knew my first INSTICTIVE response should have been NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  Back to the no chop rule for moi  Sarah


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

QUOTE (Scoobydoo @ Jul 22 2008, 10:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609274


> Oh Crystal I am sorry you are not happy with the kids' new hair do's. As for the baboon ass  My boys have one every time they are groomed, don't they call it the sanitary cut? I know it looks funny at first but I like that their dags don't get stuck in the hair when they poop
> You really need to show us a picture of Zoe and Jett, I am sure they look adorable as always :grouphug:[/B]


A sanitary cut is one thing. We're talking pink baboon butt! :w00t: "Dags" :smrofl: Now I don't think that was in the Aussie Slang dictionary you provided!! :smrofl: 

QUOTE (momtoboo @ Jul 22 2008, 10:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609296


> I'm sorry about the bad haircuts Crystal. I know it's just hair & will grow back, but it can really be disheartening the first few days afterward. Sounds like Jett & Zoe got all of Boo & Hannahs worst haircut mishaps all rolled into one. On Dec.1st, Hannah got the worst ever & although I took pics of her for proof of the disaster, I couldn't bring myself to post them. Her eyes had been "scalped", her little muzzle nearly shaved on top, with a droopy thin mustache.She looked like she had some kind of fatal illness.It took 3 mths for her face to look like Hannah again. There was no communication barrier to blame as the groomer was my regular groomer & was told to do the "usuall" same as last time haircut. I've come to the conclusion that some groomers just don't get it & will never get it. So she isn't allowed to ever touch their faces again, only trim up their bodies. I've had sooooo many bad chop jobs done to both Boo & Hannah. Boo even had a heart shaped bald spot on his chest & a chop job on his tail. They've had the dreaded baboon butt, been poodleized & schnauzerized & ended up with they're topknots right between their eyes. But yes, it does grow back & mostly it's us mommies that have to sweat it out as they go happily about their business being cute little fluffbutts.I think you're handling it much better than I ever did though. So sorry that happened to your beautiful babies. :grouphug:[/B]


*sigh* 3 months???? Dang! We're in for a looooooong haul!! Never thought I'd be anxious for the end of summer!  

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Jul 22 2008, 11:53 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609332


> I just saw this post for the first time....so what's the ETA for pictures? are they really that bad?
> 
> I hope it grows back in quickly for you. Hey, show us pictures of them wearing clothes![/B]


The ETA for pictures? Ummmm.....I'm thinking 3 months!!  And clothes don't hide the baboon ass, the shaved neck, or the shaved muzzle.  

QUOTE (dogloverx3 @ Jul 22 2008, 05:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609478


> OOPSY - I knew my first INSTICTIVE response should have been NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  Back to the no chop rule for moi  Sarah[/B]


Yeah! This is all your fault Sarah!! Where was your normal answer? I was depending on you in a moment of exhausted weakness!! :smtease: 

Ok...just to let you know. All day today I've had people in the store asking me, "so what kind of dogs are those?" and then giving me a 'you've been hood winked' look when I tell them "Maltese"! :rofl: 

I even had one customer from the Indianapolis area come in yesterday to see them and when I told them where they were, her response was, "well she had better not ruin them!". And she came in again today just to check out their grooming job!! She was speechless! :rofl: Then showed Jett (because really, Zoe doesn't look that bad) a picture she had taken of him at her last visit and told him he was looking in a mirror at his new cut so he wouldn't feel bad! :smrofl: :smrofl: :smrofl:


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Jul 22 2008, 05:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609582


> QUOTE (dogloverx3 @ Jul 22 2008, 05:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=609478





> OOPSY - I knew my first INSTICTIVE response should have been NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  Back to the no chop rule for moi  Sarah[/B]


Yeah! This is all your fault Sarah!! Where was your normal answer? I was depending on you in a moment of exhausted weakness!! :smtease: 


[/B][/QUOTE]

:HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:


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## cloey70 (Jan 6, 2008)

Sounds like your dealing with it ok, and with a little humor. Do u think you'll use her again?


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## bonniesmom (Jun 2, 2008)

You are dealing with it VERY well - I think I'd be putting out a contract on that groomer. :smmadder: What was she
thinking??? :smpullhair: (Gee, I'm glad I didn't advise you to use her! :smtease I'm really sorry this happened to the
poor babies, but it WILL grow back, and I would NOT use this butcher again!


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