# Bringing baby Bella Breeze home



## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

I know that this announcement will more than likely draw the disapproval of some on this forum, but I want to be honest and forthcoming as I have enjoyed this forum so much and learned many great things in my time here. I am happy to announce that after long and thoughtful consideration and much discussion with both the vet that accompanied me on my trip, as well as the vet that she practices under, AND multiple discussions with the founder and head trainer of the organization that I received my service dog from, I am bringing home baby Bella Breeze this upcoming weekend. Last weekend, when I went to see her, the vet who accompanied me thought it was ridiculous for me to wait until age 12 weeks to bring her home. Once I returned home and consulted with the other aforementioned people, they all told me the same thing. In their professional opinions, it is better for a healthy puppy, including those of toy breeds, to come to their new homes after 8 weeks of age, given the new environment is appropriate and the puppy's caretaker is experienced. The head vet feels that ages 8 - 12 weeks is criticial bonding time between a puppy and its new person/family. And as I know from my own personal experience with our Toy Aussie and a Standard Aussie, both of whom we received from show breeders at 12 weeks old, there have been issues which the vets and trainer (and myself) attribute to a lack of proper socialization at an early age. I am in NO way dissing those who believe in the "12 week" rule nor am I implying that it is not a valid opinion. And I know their are great show breeders out there who go above and beyond to make sure their puppies get lots of stimulation and socialization. But what I want to put out there, is ultimately, these are the people that I will be working with to ensure that my Bella has a long, healthy and productive life. And, God forbid, in an emergency, these are the people that I am going to have to put my trust in at a moment's notice. Now I know a thing or two about dogs since I work with one 24/7 as part of my career, but I will never say that I know more than these people who have far more knowledge, experience and education than I do so I am following my "gut" feeling with the encouragement of this wonderful team of people that I am blessed to with on an almost daily basis, and taking the plunge and bringing my baby girl home. Thanks to each of you who have been so supportive of me on this journey.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Will Bella Breeze's breeder allow you to bring her home at just eight weeks? The AMA Code of Ethics requires breeders to keep their puppies until they are at least 12 weeks old so the decision may not be up to you.

Most reputable breeders also require a puppy to be at least two pounds before they leave their mother, too. She's only 24 ounces now, isn't she?


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

There are exceptions to every rule..it seems that you as a very experience dog person, are an exception to the 12 week rule.

However, you are not an exception to the rule that requires you to post hundreds of puppy pictures......:innocent:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

babycake7 said:


> I know that this announcement will more than likely draw the disapproval of some on this forum, but I want to be honest and forthcoming as I have enjoyed this forum so much and learned many great things in my time here. I am happy to announce that after long and thoughtful consideration and much discussion with both the vet that accompanied me on my trip, as well as the vet that she practices under, AND multiple discussions with the founder and head trainer of the organization that I received my service dog from, I am bringing home baby Bella Breeze this upcoming weekend. Last weekend, when I went to see her, the vet who accompanied me thought it was ridiculous for me to wait until age 12 weeks to bring her home. Once I returned home and consulted with the other aforementioned people, they all told me the same thing. In their professional opinions, it is better for a healthy puppy, including those of toy breeds, to come to their new homes after 8 weeks of age, given the new environment is appropriate and the puppy's caretaker is experienced. The head vet feels that ages 8 - 12 weeks is criticial bonding time between a puppy and its new person/family. And as I know from my own personal experience with our Toy Aussie and a Standard Aussie, both of whom we received from show breeders at 12 weeks old, there have been issues which the vets and trainer (and myself) attribute to a lack of proper socialization at an early age. I am in NO way dissing those who believe in the "12 week" rule nor am I implying that it is not a valid opinion. And I know their are great show breeders out there who go above and beyond to make sure their puppies get lots of stimulation and socialization. But what I want to put out there, is ultimately, these are the people that I will be working with to ensure that my Bella has a long, healthy and productive life. And, God forbid, in an emergency, these are the people that I am going to have to put my trust in at a moment's notice. Now I know a thing or two about dogs since I work with one 24/7 as part of my career, but I will never say that I know more than these people who have far more knowledge, experience and education than I do so I am following my "gut" feeling with the encouragement of this wonderful team of people that I am blessed to with on an almost daily basis, and taking the plunge and bringing my baby girl home. Thanks to each of you who have been so supportive of me on this journey.


 
First, may I say, before my heart leaps out of my body with great joy for you, that I respect and admire you, for who you are and what you do as an occupation. Additionally, I trust all the specialist you had with you during the visit and post the visit.

I truly more than respect your decision. In addition to vets checking out the health of the babies, they also check out the tempermant, and when is the right time, to be brought to their forever loving home. Sounds to me like you have covered all your basis.

Yes, of course, everyone knows the golden rule of 12 weeks, but I don't think their is a single person, who could ever question your judgement. You are very wise, have tons of experience, and additionally have already had your vet check out your darling baby prior to bringing her home. That is a blessing, and something I truly respect.

I can just feel that sweet Baby Bella Breeze, belongs in your loving arms. Bless all the professionals, who went with you, who you have consulted, and helped you make the best decision for you and Baby Bella.

With that said ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :chili:, now my heart can leap out of my body :wub:

I could not be more happier for you and sweet Bella Breeze, will be coming to the most loving home, with a very experienced owner, and a loving and very knowledgeable crew of vets.

I can not wait till she is in your loving arms.

This is your and sweet Bella Breeze's time.....oh Enjoy!!!!!

And when you are all settled, pictures, pictures, pictures.

Love you dearly, and I am already in love with Bella Breeze, oh I love her name as well.

I am so very happy for you and Bella. In these days, boy does it warm your heart, to know a precious baby, will be in loving arms and a loving home.

Wishing you all the best, and enjoy this most precious moment,
Christine


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Bella will be 9 weeks old and yes, the breeder is fine with it as i have already spoken to them. And they had the opportunity to meet one of my vets, which many breeders do not get to do when placing a puppy. Also, I am going to address this with much trepidation...there is a lot of mention about the AMA breeder code of ethics on this forum and the "12 week Golden Rule" but I received a PM from one member who let me know that one of these esteemed breeders on the AMA list not only pulled a switch on her (when she went to pick up her puppy it was NOT the puppy she was supposed to get) it was also from a different litter 2 weeks younger. So this "esteemed and reputable" breeder broke their own code of ethics and released a 10 week old puppy. So, yes, there are exceptions to everything in life - one of them being "not all that glitters is gold." This is not really my story to tell since it was PM'd to me so I am not going to get into any further details about which SM member this happened to or which breeder it involved but I am putting it out there to put the brakes on chatter. This is a happy time for me. Thanks.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Sylvia - I promise...Pictures, lots of pictures!!!


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Christine and fluff crew - I am humbled by your kind words! Thank you, my sweet friend.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

babycake7 said:


> Bella will be 9 weeks old and yes, the breeder is fine with it as i have already spoken to them. And they had the opportunity to meet one of my vets, which many breeders do not get to do when placing a puppy. Also, I am going to address this with much trepidation...there is a lot of mention about the AMA breeder code of ethics on this forum and the "12 week Golden Rule" but I received a PM from one member who let me know that one of these esteemed breeders on the AMA list not only pulled a switch on her (when she went to pick up her puppy it was NOT the puppy she was supposed to get) it was also from a different litter 2 weeks younger. So this "esteemed and reputable" breeder broke their own code of ethics and released a 10 week old puppy. So, yes, there are exceptions to everything in life - one of them being "not all that glitters is gold." This is not really my story to tell since it was PM'd to me so I am not going to get into any further details about which SM member this happened to or which breeder it involved but I am putting it out there to put the brakes on chatter. This is a happy time for me. Thanks.


 
Okay, we have addressed that issue, what show was it, I can't remember, but at the end, they would say "Smiles everybody". :aktion033:

Hope, please, as you said, this is YOUR special time as well as Bella's.

Oh please enjoy this moment, I know I am. 

Gosh what show was that???? With the little guy, ahhhhh I can't remember. It wasn't Love Boat, something about an Island, I can't remember :blink:

You have addressed all issues, and now it's time for you to please enjoy and for me to take a shower before my neighbors think someone died in this house :w00t:

You are not exempt, as has been previously stated, to happy homecoming pics.

xoxoxoxo


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Fantasy Island!!!


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

babycake7 said:


> Fantasy Island!!!


 
Oh thank you so much!!!!!!!! That would have bothered me all day. :HistericalSmiley:

Was that little guy too cute or what?

THANK YOU! 

Smiles everybody :Happy_Dance:


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

Hope, I am so very happy for you! You must be just thrilled to be bringing little Bella Breeze home!
I know how difficult your search has been, and I am just so excited for you.
What a fun time! Enjoy every minute!
Do you have everything ready for little Bella Breeze? Any little pink outfits yet? Lots of toys? Her own special bed? We need details!!!


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

My sweet Ellie was 8 weeks old when I brought her home. Cute, active, friendly everything you would want your maltese to be. My vet looked her over at 8 weeks and gave her a clean bill of health. She died at 5 from liver disease and cost me close to 15 thousand dollars over her 5 years. I do hope you are dealing with a reputable show breeder.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Hi Kathleen,

I am super excited!!! I do have most things thanks to the shopping trip that took place after I met Bella...wee pads/holder, ceramic food and water bowls in a little wrought iron stand, lots of fun toys, a crate, a very soft pink bed with pink doggie bones embroidered on it, a little pink bone shaped pillow, Iris pen (thanks for the tip Christine!!!) vet appointments scheduled for all the upcoming shots, training treats, and food. I have not yet bought any clothes since I met her. She was about 24 ounces then but her family texted me today that she is 31 this morning so she is gaining well. I am sure she will be 2 pounds by the weekend and she will be 9 weeks. Any tips of good things for pups to chew on. We don't do rawhide in our house with our other dogs...bully sticks are the chew of choice but I didn't know if there was something better for a Maltese. Any suggestions or if I am leaving something out, please let me know?!!  So excited!!!


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

I have also had Maltese and Yorkies brought home at 9 weeks. I really didn't know any better, but they all lived to at least 15 years and had really no serious health issues, until they were seniors. I didn't have any socialization problems with them either. If I decide to get another puppy I will wait for the correct time to bring it home. I wish you all the luck and I know that you'll do just fine with little Bella. Please keep us posted and we definitely want to see pictures!


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## LexiMom (Feb 7, 2012)

Hope I commend you for your honesty, I am sure that was not easy for you to write or post. Congrats on your new baby and I can not wait to see tons of pictures. As you know this has been a debate her on SM the last week or so regarding bringing a new puppy home too quickly. In the end the decision is yours and the breeders and I just hope and pray that everything will work out great for you.

As far as AMA standards they are guidelines that should be followed and guidelines written by professionals with maltese. I am sure there are some that will pull some things (such as a switch you stated) but I would believe that is not the norm - 

In the end everyone here on SM wants to see you have a healthy fluff and no issues that will arise in the future.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Cathy, 

So very sorry to hear about your Elly. That is very sad but how lucky she was to have you and that you did so much to try and help her. I think like most things in life, one must do as much as you can to cover your bases (research, education, etc.), surround yourself with knowledgable people you feel confident in placing your trust in, prepare yourself (including financially) in case the worst happens, and then go forward with joy in your heart, stay positive and do your best. There are so many unknowns in life and I have learned here on the forum that even the best laid plans involving the best people, sadly, can have unhappy endings. We are in the race horse business, so we live, day in and day out, with both the highest highs and lowest lows but it is the joy of being able to live and work among God's creatures and the blessing of being charged with their care that makes the grief a bit easier to bear when life takes unexpected turns.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks, Linda and Deborah!!


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

LexiMom said:


> Hope I commend you for your honesty, I am sure that was not easy for you to write or post. Congrats on your new baby and I can not wait to see tons of pictures. As you know this has been a debate her on SM the last week or so regarding bringing a new puppy home too quickly. In the end the decision is yours and the breeders and I just hope and pray that everything will work out great for you.
> 
> As far as AMA standards they are guidelines that should be followed and guidelines written by professionals with maltese. I am sure there are some that will pull some things (such as a switch you stated) but I would believe that is not the norm -
> 
> In the end everyone here on SM wants to see you have a healthy fluff and no issues that will arise in the future.




:goodpost: I agree..


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

babycake7 said:


> Hi Kathleen,
> 
> I am super excited!!! I do have most things thanks to the shopping trip that took place after I met Bella...wee pads/holder, ceramic food and water bowls in a little wrought iron stand, lots of fun toys, a crate, a very soft pink bed with pink doggie bones embroidered on it, a little pink bone shaped pillow, Iris pen (thanks for the tip Christine!!!) vet appointments scheduled for all the upcoming shots, training treats, and food. I have not yet bought any clothes since I met her. She was about 24 ounces then but her family texted me today that she is 31 this morning so she is gaining well. I am sure she will be 2 pounds by the weekend and she will be 9 weeks. Any tips of good things for pups to chew on. We don't do rawhide in our house with our other dogs...bully sticks are the chew of choice but I didn't know if there was something better for a Maltese. Any suggestions or if I am leaving something out, please let me know?!!  So excited!!!


 
Ahhhh I love the Iris pens. I have found the same thing, the babies love their bully sticks. Although with three it can be like musical chairs :blink: I give each one a bully stick, all three romp happily away, only to find one or two run back to me, without a bully stick. My Mia, as sweet as sugar as she is, um, I think may be the culprit. But little Ana will let me know who has what. But yes, my kiddies love bully sticks.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

My kids call them "stinky sticks". HA HA HA. We buy Cooper the ones that are 18 -24" long and when I showed my co-workers all they could say was "ewwww....can you imagine the size of that bull?!!!" LOL!


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## educ8m (May 19, 2010)

Congratulations! What an exciting time this is for you. I'm impressed that you took your vet with you when looking at Bella. Looking forward to lots of pictures. :aktion033:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I got my first Maltese from a BYB at the age of 9 weeks. He had health issues his entire life. I have 3 girls from two different show breeders. One was 12 weeks when I got her, one was 6 months, and one was 13 weeks. Ethical show breeders sometimes hold on to their babies even longer than 12 weeks when they are on the small side. I can tell you from experience all 3 of my girls were better prepared and more easily transitioned to their new home than the 9 week old pup I first got. I disagree with your vet that it is "ridiculous" to wait until 12 weeks to bring home a Maltese puppy. Just my two cents.:thumbsup:


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## Madison's Mom (Dec 26, 2007)

Congratulations! 

I brought Madison home at 9 weeks and we have had no issues....well, except that she thinks she is queen of the world...and she pretty much is! At the time I got her, I didn't know about the '12-week-rule." Would I do it again? Maybe not, but it's all worked out fine for us.

Looking forward to pictures!


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

LexiMom said:


> Hope I commend you for your honesty, I am sure that was not easy for you to write or post. Congrats on your new baby and I can not wait to see tons of pictures. As you know this has been a debate her on SM the last week or so regarding bringing a new puppy home too quickly. In the end the decision is yours and the breeders and I just hope and pray that everything will work out great for you.
> 
> As far as AMA standards they are guidelines that should be followed and guidelines written by professionals with maltese. I am sure there are some that will pull some things (such as a switch you stated) but I would believe that is not the norm -
> 
> *In the end everyone here on SM wants to see you have a healthy fluff and no issues that will arise in the future*.


:goodpost:Hope - I'm so excited that you finally found your little Bella. I think we all make decisions in life and there are lots of compromises along the way. If you feel in your heart that you're getting sound info then follow it. I know that Bella will be entering a terrific home and be loved and you will be socializing her with other dogs. I personally would wait and in fact got my Tyler at 8 months and I don't think you can find a more socialized sweet Maltese out there. I know that he must have been treated wonderfully.

I think I already sent you the link to the stickie with things to have on hand for the new pup. If not here it is: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/59-...ted/100990-putting-together-my-checklist.html Just remember that you need to have on hand nutrical. These really little ones can crash with hypoglycemia in the blink of an eye. 
I bet you can't wait until you pick her up. :chili:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

I am very excited for you and I'm sure everything will be fine. When I was waiting for my Abbey to be ready to come home, the breeder needed to go into the hospital and begged me to take her early. She was just about 8 weeks old when she came home. She's healthy but she sure is a yapper!!! :blink::smilie_tischkante: .....I don't know if that would have anything to do with leaving home too early....

Can't wait to see your pictures!!


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

I just can't wait till this precious baby is in Hope's loving arms. I brought home, Flakey, Tina Marie, my sweet loving Kara at 8 weeks. Never had a problem as far as getting all 3 socialized ande loving their new home enviroment. Although I did not have the luxury of having a vet accompany me, like Hope has. 

Let's face it, for those of us who have aches and pains for no reason , we all at one time brought our babies home at 8 weeks.

I think this is more of an annoucment thread, of a very joyous moment, by a young lady who has completely done her homework, has specialized skills, moreso than a debate on the 12 week rule.

We could perhaps start a different thread, if people would like about the 12 week rule. 

But I think this thread, is moreso, to welcome another precious baby, to Spoiled Maltese.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Hi April,

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. All of this information helps contribute to people making better informed decisions based on the info available and their own personal opinions. Your babies are beautiful!!


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

IMO it is between you, your Vet and your breeder. You all have all the information that is out there, and are making a personal decision based on your thoughts on that. I hope everything works out well for you.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Susan - Thanks for the reminder about the nutrical. My vet did mention it. Putting it on my list. Also, I should add that unless I am in court with Cooper, little Bella can accompany to my office where I can keep a watchful eye on her (I do not work full time btw). As well, my husband is self-employed and in and out of the house throughout the day so if left at home, there will always be someone checking in on her.


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## Patsy Heck (Jun 10, 2011)

You will do fine. My Jack Russell was removed from the litter at 11 weeks because the rest of the puppies were too rough with her. All though I couldn't pick her up until the 12 weeks. She always acted abused even though she never had a hand put on her except to love on her. I wish I had her at 8 weeks to give her better self esteem. As far as chewys my girls prefer the beef munchies to bully sticks. They are beef lungs. They also have lamb munchies I'm going to give them a try.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Chewies -- I have been getting the beef trachea. I worry a lot about the other kind of bully stick/pizzle/corkscrew type bully spring treats because they tend to get really long and stringy when chewed on and some of our dogs have choked on them. They kind of get caught halfway down their throats. I seem to remember something about a posting by a cop with a K-9 partner who said they can cause obstructions sometimes and they don't give them. I think the trachea is better tolerated and even gives off glucosomine. The come in varying lengths and I got a small one for Tyler. His whiskers don't get as dirty either and they don't stink like the others.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Hey Patsy, thanks for the tip on the treats. I will look into them.


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## Patsy Heck (Jun 10, 2011)

The munchies are not stringy at all. They break up into little pieces. I haven't sen any choking hazard.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Patsy Heck said:


> The munchies are not stringy at all. They break up into little pieces. I haven't sen any choking hazard.


Patsy - I think the lungs and trachea are very similar in texture. I think mostly cartilage which doesn't string.:thumbsup:


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## sunnycleveland (Apr 3, 2010)

babycake7 said:


> Bella will be 9 weeks old and yes, the breeder is fine with it as i have already spoken to them. And they had the opportunity to meet one of my vets, which many breeders do not get to do when placing a puppy. Also, I am going to address this with much trepidation...there is a lot of mention about the AMA breeder code of ethics on this forum and the "12 week Golden Rule" but I received a PM from one member who let me know that one of these esteemed breeders on the AMA list not only pulled a switch on her (when she went to pick up her puppy it was NOT the puppy she was supposed to get) it was also from a different litter 2 weeks younger. So this "esteemed and reputable" breeder broke their own code of ethics and released a 10 week old puppy. So, yes, there are exceptions to everything in life - one of them being "not all that glitters is gold." This is not really my story to tell since it was PM'd to me so I am not going to get into any further details about which SM member this happened to or which breeder it involved but I am putting it out there to put the brakes on chatter. This is a happy time for me. Thanks.


unfortunately I have to agree - 'reputable breeders' are not what they used to be, at least from my personal experience. I went to the top breeder discussed on here (half way across the country); was promised one dog, then she tried to sell me another. was told the dog would not be ready by the time I wanted to fly in, then calls me 2 weeks before my departure and tells me the dog is ready and she can ship her to me... not to mention I did not see 1 picture of my puppy... oh and now I find out she's on a list of puppy mill breeders... 
my dog is full of phobias and has terrible reaction to strangers. So am I bitter? yes I am, I did everything correct, went to top breeder, paid top dollar, etc... 
read the guidlines but make your own decision...

congratulations on your new puppy. this is such a happy time!


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thank you for your well wishes, Fiona's mom. I am so sorry you had a bad experience and that your baby has obstacles to overcome. I feel each situation is unique and must be looked at from all the angles while taking into account the information and resources that are available. I feel lucky to have found Bella. Her family texts me multiple times a day and has sent me photos of her, her litter mates, momma and daddy, and even a few video clips of her playing. It has certainly been a nice added touch in this experience that has made me feel that beyond their knowledge and love of Maltese, they really also feel that they are making an investment in me, her future mommy, as I am making in them, as her breeders. I hope to have a long and rewarding relationship with them as Bella grows up.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm hesitant about this because of my own experience.

But I wish you and Bella the best of luck.

Is there a safe puppy class that would let you take her? The 8-12 week period is mostly about socialization with their litter mates and mama dog.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Hi Grace's Mom, 

I have other dogs at home who will help show her the ropes. We refer to one of our Aussies as "Uncle Lobo" as he is such a kind and gentle friend to all creatures great and small. He was especially kind with newborn kittens that a stray mama decided to have in our barn a few years ago. Thank you for your concern!


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I feel that under the circumstances (extremely knowledgable owner, vet support, breeder in agreement, etc) that this is OK. We get very protective of our little dogs, and all want what is best. Certainly 12 weeks is a great standard, but there are those that disagree with that. There is a school of thought that 8 weeks is the best time for socialization as the OP has suggested. I think there may be some out there that have had bad experiences with young puppies from BYB's and unscrouplous breeders. But, those puppies may have had problems regardless of the age they were brought to their new homes. The truth is, a puppy going to a loving home is a wonderful thing. I mean, there are poor little resuces that are abandoned at birth, and end up just fine with the right loving care. Bella Breeze is going to be a great addition to your family!


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I just have to step in on this and say that if your breeder is an AMA member this could be considered a breach of the code of ethics. Every member signs this agreement saying that they will not let their puppies go before 12 weeks of age. One of my biggest issues with this is that if they are willing to set aside this aspect of the code, are they also willing to set aside other aspects of the code? Breeders who violate this code can be brought up on charges and suspended from the AMA. 

I also would like to raise a very serious quarrel I have with your vet statement about it being ridiculous to wait until 12 weeks.  Toy breed puppies (unlike Aussies) are traditionally kept until 12 weeks or later. This is not just a Maltese thing. 

Much of the research that shows that this is a critical period in the puppy's development is totally accurate. However, it often ignores the role that breeders (who are often more experienced in canine development than the average new owner) can and do play in raising well adjusted and well socialized puppies. I am not saying every breeder does the work they should do to raise puppies that way, but for those breeders who do, there is no reason to suspect that the puppies are missing out on the necessary elements on socialization and human bonding. I should say that having acquired dogs at various ages (like many folks here have done) it is unfair to suggest that the bond is automatically stronger when you get a puppy at 8 weeks versus 12. 

There is an excellent chapter in a book called Another Piece of the Puzzle Puppy Development where breeders describe the benefits of keeping puppies longer than even the 12 week rule. The chapter discusses how much more well adjusted puppies are who have stayed as long as 16 weeks in the breeder's home. Amazon.com: Another Piece of the Puzzle: Puppy Development (9780967841427): Pat Hastings, Erin Ann Rouse: Books

When raising my litter, I was very very careful to be sure that my puppies had plenty of socialization. I brought visitors into my home. I brought them on long distance car rides. I had them interacting with people of all ages. I even brought them to Pat's puppy party at 9 weeks. In those weeks between 8-12 weeks I saw a tremendous amount of development going on. They are like baby toddlers and really do learn SO much from their litter-mates and their mother. I think it is sad to hear the professionals involved in this situation minimize and even denigrate the very real benefits of the puppy staying with the breeder during this critical time. 

Please understand I am not trying to dismiss your own experience and frankly, I do not doubt that you have the skills and the awareness of the health implications to raise a young puppy in your own home. But I am a bit saddened to see the dismissal of the reasons for this rule that is a core of the AMA code of ethics by both your vet and your breeder. And I do not want to see folks here on SM, who may share your excitement over this puppy, to be willing to also set aside the very valid reasons why following the 12 week rule is one of the things we tell people to look for in a reputable breeder.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

elly said:


> My sweet Ellie was 8 weeks old when I brought her home. Cute, active, friendly everything you would want your maltese to be. My vet looked her over at 8 weeks and gave her a clean bill of health. She died at 5 from liver disease and cost me close to 15 thousand dollars over her 5 years. I do hope you are dealing with a reputable show breeder.


 
How heart breaking, to fight so hard for your Ellie and loose her so soon...


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Both Emily and Sasha came home at 8 weeks. It wasn't that the breeder was in a hurry,it's when she left most of them go ,except a couple of pups that were smaller. Emily and Sasha being litter mates may have helped them.

I've been lucky so far all our dogs have had no health issues other than what comes with old age or ones that had health issues I knew of before rescuing them...

I understand the concern but if your vet feels she's healthy enough,then I see nothing wrong.

Can't wait for piccies!!!

I would guess that if it wasn't for the 12 week rule, where many breeders let them go at 8 weeks, we'd probably have breeders letting them do at 6 weeks, or just after weaning... They probably do it to err on the side of caution...

I would think it depends on the pup, it's health, size ,temperment and other socialization issues...


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## Noah (Jan 6, 2012)

Congratulations!!!! I am so happy for you! I know you put so much time and effort into the decision and it's so great it all worked out. Pictures are a definite must!!!!!


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I just have to step in on this and say that if your breeder is an AMA member this could be considered a breach of the code of ethics. Every member signs this agreement saying that they will not let their puppies go before 12 weeks of age. One of my biggest issues with this is that if they are willing to set aside this aspect of the code, are they also willing to set aside other aspects of the code? Breeders who violate this code can be brought up on charges and suspended from the AMA.
> 
> I also would like to raise a very serious quarrel I have with your vet statement about it being ridiculous to wait until 12 weeks.  Toy breed puppies (unlike Aussies) are traditionally kept until 12 weeks or later. This is not just a Maltese thing.
> 
> ...


You do bring up a valid point Carina, about breeders that would breech the rules. We do not know if this person is an AMA member or not, as the OP has not revealed the name of the breeder (probably wisely under the circumstances) Having said that, we have certainly seen more than one story here from people that have gotten pups from "top breeders" that were completly unsocialized and had huge problems with fear, biting etc. I know that some breeders (and hopefully most) are well versed when it comes to canine development. Certainly my dogs (came home at 5 months and 8 months respectively) were beautifully socialized and potty trained to boot. But sadly that is not the case in many situations and we have members here that can testify to that.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

elly said:


> My sweet Ellie was 8 weeks old when I brought her home. Cute, active, friendly everything you would want your maltese to be. My vet looked her over at 8 weeks and gave her a clean bill of health. She died at 5 from liver disease and cost me close to 15 thousand dollars over her 5 years. I do hope you are dealing with a reputable show breeder.


This is *EXACTLY* what happened to me with Sammie's brother. I did not have a reputable breeder and did not know what I was doing. Sammie has some fear aggression issues with strangers/animals. IMHO the 12 week rule is there for a good reason.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Here they are first day home with me, at 8 weeks old. Too young IMO. It happens every day all over the world and most don't have the issues I had. I'm just aware now how important those extra weeks are. 


I hope your puppy is PERFECT in every way!


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Congrats on your new puppy.
Personally, I would wait until 12 weeks but it's your decision so good luck with Bella Breeze


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Sammie said:


> This is *EXACTLY* what happened to me with Sammie's brother. I did not have a reputable breeder and did not know what I was doing. Sammie has some fear aggression issues with strangers/animals. IMHO the 12 week rule is there for a good reason.


I need to make a correction to my post:

We lost Sammie's brother Kirby at 5 months, not 5 years like Ellie. It was awful. If I ever get another one, it will be from a rep breeder, with a BAT performed, or rescue. Sorry, this subject is close to my heart.


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

sunnycleveland said:


> unfortunately I have to agree - 'reputable breeders' are not what they used to be, at least from my personal experience. I went to the top breeder discussed on here (half way across the country); was promised one dog, then she tried to sell me another. was told the dog would not be ready by the time I wanted to fly in, then calls me 2 weeks before my departure and tells me the dog is ready and she can ship her to me... not to mention I did not see 1 picture of my puppy... oh and now I find out she's on a list of puppy mill breeders...
> my dog is full of phobias and has terrible reaction to strangers. So am I bitter? yes I am, I did everything correct, went to top breeder, paid top dollar, etc...
> read the guidlines but make your own decision...
> 
> congratulations on your new puppy. this is such a happy time!


 
I'm so sorry this happened to you! You certainly did everything right on your end--sorry the breeder didn't 



CloudClan said:


> I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I just have to step in on this and say that if your breeder is an AMA member this could be considered a breach of the code of ethics. Every member signs this agreement saying that they will not let their puppies go before 12 weeks of age. One of my biggest issues with this is that if they are willing to set aside this aspect of the code, are they also willing to set aside other aspects of the code? Breeders who violate this code can be brought up on charges and suspended from the AMA.
> 
> I also would like to raise a very serious quarrel I have with your vet statement about it being ridiculous to wait until 12 weeks.  Toy breed puppies (unlike Aussies) are traditionally kept until 12 weeks or later. This is not just a Maltese thing.
> 
> ...


I really agree with Carina's points. Just speaking from experience, the only puppy my family has "done right" by adopting from a show breeder, met in person, and adopted at 13 or 14 weeks of age has turned out to be the best adjusted puppy we've ever had (we mostly rescue our dogs). She never nipped us, never went through a destructive period, barely jumped up, etc. She learned so many important lessons from staying with her mom and siblings. She also slept through the night after one night, and was fully housebroken within three days. Not only do I support AMA's 12 week rule and think it's good for all breeds, I personally would not want a younger pup--too high maintenance for me. 

Hope, will you reconsider leaving Bella with mom for just a few more weeks? As for the bonding thing, I got Zooey when she was 3 years old and I love her as much as my closest human loved ones--it's just immeasurable love :wub: I'm sure you're carefully considering this decision.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

aprilb said:


> I disagree with your vet that it is "ridiculous" to wait until 12 weeks to bring home a Maltese puppy. Just my two cents.:thumbsup:


:amen:


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

babycake7 said:


> Hi Grace's Mom,
> 
> I have other dogs at home who will help show her the ropes. We refer to one of our Aussies as "Uncle Lobo" as he is such a kind and gentle friend to all creatures great and small. He was especially kind with newborn kittens that a stray mama decided to have in our barn a few years ago. Thank you for your concern!


Hope - I'm glad you have other dogs in the house, at least. I really do hope everything works out for you and Bella 

Do update with photos


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

Sammie said:


> Here they are first day home with me, at 8 weeks old. Too young IMO. It happens every day all over the world and most don't have the issues I had. I'm just aware now how important those extra weeks are.


Yes - Gus was too young. Grace is a totally different puppy. Much more confident and "mature". Just those few extra weeks make a huge difference



CloudClan said:


> I also would like to raise a very serious quarrel I have with your vet statement about it being ridiculous to wait until 12 weeks.  Toy breed puppies (unlike Aussies) are traditionally kept until 12 weeks or later. This is not just a Maltese thing.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


I totally agree. And it did shock me that the vet said it was okay to take the puppy early. My vet is a HUGE advocate for keeping puppies with their mamas until 10-12 weeks (Even for her BIG puppy patients!). I think she's seen too many of the other side to be okay with it. She even reminded me to make sure our new puppy (Grace) was old enough to leave her mama.

It worries me because like someone else posted - when will it stop? A breeder lets them go at 8 weeks, then next time it will be 7 weeks, then 6, then 4.... So sad.

But all we can do is inform people, share stories, and hope people make a good choice.

And send all the puppies our love and positive energy and hope they grow up healthy and happy.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

CloudClan said:


> I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I just have to step in on this and say that if your breeder is an AMA member this could be considered a breach of the code of ethics. Every member signs this agreement saying that they will not let their puppies go before 12 weeks of age. One of my biggest issues with this is that if they are willing to set aside this aspect of the code, are they also willing to set aside other aspects of the code? Breeders who violate this code can be brought up on charges and suspended from the AMA.
> 
> I also would like to raise a very serious quarrel I have with your vet statement about it being ridiculous to wait until 12 weeks.  Toy breed puppies (unlike Aussies) are traditionally kept until 12 weeks or later. This is not just a Maltese thing.
> 
> ...


 
:goodpost: Please understand that I am not judging you, nor being a hypocrite. I got Bella at 10.5 weeks and from a Pet Store. No glass house here ~ trust me. What I have done very well though, is learn from the experiences of many others here who are familiar with the Maltese breed and guidelines. One truly gains in wisdom from learning from past mistakes and by educating themselves so they do not repeat such errors. I believe that the 12 weeks is a rule for a reason. Bella was too young to be adopted, though of course we love her completely. Honestly I'd like to see the wait time for adoptions be more like 14-16 weeks of age. I hope you will make the best decision for the pup. I'm sure a quality breeder would have no issue with waiting just a wee bit longer. ♥


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Sammie said:


> I need to make a correction to my post:
> 
> We lost Sammie's brother Kirby at 5 months, not 5 years like Ellie. It was awful. If I ever get another one, it will be from a rep breeder, with a BAT performed, or rescue. Sorry, this subject is close to my heart.


Oh I am so deeply sorry, and you have nothing at all to be sorry about. Hugs to you.



CloudClan said:


> I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I just have to step in on this and say that if your breeder is an AMA member this could be considered a breach of the code of ethics. Every member signs this agreement saying that they will not let their puppies go before 12 weeks of age. One of my biggest issues with this is that if they are willing to set aside this aspect of the code, are they also willing to set aside other aspects of the code? Breeders who violate this code can be brought up on charges and suspended from the AMA.
> 
> I also would like to raise a very serious quarrel I have with your vet statement about it being ridiculous to wait until 12 weeks.  Toy breed puppies (unlike Aussies) are traditionally kept until 12 weeks or later. This is not just a Maltese thing.
> 
> ...


Carina, you make very valid points, of which all of us do know and can probably recite in our sleep. 

I do have to make a correction, Kara was brought home at 10 weeks, still goes against the rule, but did want to make the correction.

Was their a huge difference when I got sweet baby Ana at 12 weeks, yes. I think if I gave her the keys to the house, she would be able to open the door. I attribute that competely to Fran, boy she puts a great deal of love, care and effort into her pups, before they come to their forever home. 

So it may seem as though I am contradicting myself, but in actuality and in my heart, I am not.

It hurts me to my heart to write this, but my vet, who I love, turns green, when she hears the term "show breeder" . That makes me sad. Very sad. However, when she saw Ana, I shared how my breeder does things, she said, "Now *her *I like and I like alot".

The reason it makes me so sad that my vet truly turns green, when hearing the term is that, because once again, it's painting everyone with the same brush, but she states it's based on what she has seen, with the exception of Ana.

I do feel in this specific case and only in this specific case, every possible route was taken to follow the rule, and a very thought out educated decision was made.

So yes, I support Hope in her choice, am very happy for her, I am of course saddened by all who have had sad experiences either way, but I do beleive this is an isolated case, you may not agree and I understand, but I do agree, that we do not want newbies to just run out there and get a pup under 12 weeks. This is not something Hope did, not even close, so that's why I feel it is isoloated, and truly do respect Hope's decision and admire her for sharing it with the forum.

Additionally, I am in no way throwing the 12 week rule out the window, but again, I do feel this is a very unique situation.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

- thank you to all who have posted. I certainly can and do respect your passion and commitment to the Maltese breed. I am sorry if me being truthful about my particular situation has offended anyone or caused them concern. I appreciate the literature you reference and you can bet that I will be moving those pieces to the top of my reason list. I always enjoy gaining new information, listening to other people's experiences and sharing in spirited conversation. I would challenge those who stand behind the breeders on the AMA list to dig deeper and find out who those breeders are that have been mentioned as pulling switches and releasing puppies earlier than in the code of ethics that they are charged with upholding. Further I would add and this is just my own humble opinion and for what it's worth - or not - that they way I was raised "ethical" behavior includes treatin people with a measure of decency and respect - even when we may not "like" that person. Sadly, in the last couple of weeks on the forum we have had a poster say she received emails black balling her, wanting to tell her off, and jacking up the prices on puppies. None of this seems very "ethical" to me. But that's just me. Just like doctors and lawyers, not everyone who signs or takes a code of ethics is going to uphold it and to me, that should be the concern. There are "newbies" who have been or may be misguided to the wrong people. I am just grateful for the support system that I have because, as I stated earlier, despite what anyone else thinks, it is these people that I will have to trust with my Bella's health and well being. They are people that I have known for a very long time and whom I work very closely with and I am putting my trust in them with great confidence that they will not steer me wrong.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

babycake7 said:


> - thank you to all who have posted. I certainly can and do respect your passion and commitment to the Maltese breed. I am sorry if me being truthful about my particular situation has offended anyone or caused them concern. I appreciate the literature you reference and you can bet that I will be moving those pieces to the top of my reason list. I always enjoy gaining new information, listening to other people's experiences and sharing in spirited conversation. I would challenge those who stand behind the breeders on the AMA list to dig deeper and find out who those breeders are that have been mentioned as pulling switches and releasing puppies earlier than in the code of ethics that they are charged with upholding. Further I would add and this is just my own humble opinion and for what it's worth - or not - that they way I was raised "ethical" behavior includes treatin people with a measure of decency and respect - even when we may not "like" that person. Sadly, in the last couple of weeks on the forum we have had a poster say she received emails black balling her, wanting to tell her off, and jacking up the prices on puppies. None of this seems very "ethical" to me. But that's just me. Just like doctors and lawyers, not everyone who signs or takes a code of ethics is going to uphold it and to me, that should be the concern. There are "newbies" who have been or may be misguided to the wrong people. *I am just grateful for the support system that I have because, as I stated earlier, despite what anyone else thinks, it is these people that I will have to trust with my Bella's health and well being. They are people that I have known for a very long time and whom I work very closely with and I am putting my trust in them with great confidence that they will not steer me wrong.*




This is a very good point and I think a very important point and furthers my point that this is a very unique situation, by a pet owner to be, who has crossed every i and dotted every t in a very highly educated manner.


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## TLR (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm not sure that have a fully ingrained opinion on the 12 week rule, but I did want to congratulate you and let you know that I am looking forward to watching Bella Breeze grow...lots of pictures please!!!


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

Good Laaawwwddd! I haven't caused this much chatter since Sister Christine caught me sunbathing in my bikini behind the performing art center while she was giving a prospective student and her parents a campus tour back in my senior year of high school. Let's all just agreed to disagree on this one and know that the one thig we agree on is our love of these little white balls of love. Now cue the music, christine....everyone join hands and sing "koombaya my lord, koombaya..." now pass the peace pipe, the hooka, or whatever your poison...onwards and upwards, ladies!


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

babycake7 said:


> Good Laaawwwddd! I haven't caused this much chatter since Sister Christine caught me sunbathing in my bikini behind the performing art center while she was giving a prospective student and her parents a campus tour back in my senior year of high school. Let's all just agreed to disagree on this one and know that the one thig we agree on is our love of these little white balls of love. Now cue the music, christine....everyone join hands and sing "koombaya my lord, koombaya..." now pass the peace pipe, the hooka, or whatever your poison...onwards and upwards, ladies!


Ahhhhhhhhhhh, Sister Christine caught you doing THAT :w00t: :HistericalSmiley:

Music is here by being cued...oh heck, Group Hug I Can't hold a tune :HistericalSmiley:

Oh if Sister Christine could see you now!!!! Oh always did like that song, koombaya my Lord, or, Let there be Peace on earth.....that one I loved.


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## frankie (Mar 6, 2008)

in aus we can get our pup at 8 weeks.but for me i am prefer to pick up my pup at 12 weeks.it is more easy the pup at 12 week is already toilet trained that for my coco the toy poodle girl.eat and sleep well.


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## Aarianne (Jul 22, 2005)

Here's an interesting article I came across while trying to find the science behind the 12 week rule. While it isn't specifically about the 12 week rule, I thought that it wound up supporting it rather well. It's a bit of a long read and small type (don't forget your browser has a zoom function!), but well worth it if it's a topic that interests you. :thumbsup: 

Another Look at the 49th Day
by Dr. Ed Bailey, Professor Emeritus, Animal Behavior, University of Guelph
As printed in Gun Dog Magazine 
First Printing April/May, 1994 
Second Printing, April/May, 1998


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Hope, best of luck with your new little one.

Setting aside ethics and vet opinions, I keep my puppies until they are at least 16 weeks old. Definitely a lot more work and more expense on my end but the puppy that gets placed, like Carina's puppies, is fully socialized, fully vaccinated, potty pad trained, leashed trained, accustomed to sleeping alone and already bile acid tested. There are no surprises for me or my puppy's new owner and generally insures a stress free and easy transition for the puppy. And the bottom line for me will always be what I think is best for the puppy.


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I got my Bella from Divine Maltese at 5 1/2 months and my Krista from Pashes Maltese at 12 weeks. Both furkids at wonderful ages from great breeders. My PERSONAL PREFERENCE is actually the 5-6 months age for bringing the baby home. My opinion is that the "earlier the better for bonding" is a bunch of hooey. The bonding was not different with me and either of my fur-kids. Both my fur-babies had great training time with their dams and their breeder moms... before being passed to me for a lifetime of love and bonding.

That all stated... I wish you fabulous and healthy years with your sweet Bella Breeze. ♥


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Aarianne said:


> Another Look at the 49th Day
> by Dr. Ed Bailey, Professor Emeritus, Animal Behavior, University of Guelph
> As printed in Gun Dog Magazine
> First Printing April/May, 1994
> Second Printing, April/May, 1998


:goodpost:
Thank you SOOOO Much for posting this. I think it makes some fabulous points. If you do not mind my quoting here, I want to share some of my favorites since some people may not find that zoom button and it is a bit hard to read. 

The article does a nice job of discussing the breakdown of canine developmental stages. Here is one that I think is particularly well stated and important to consider: 

"_In reality the two types of socialization overlap just about totally. Dog-on-dog, or primary socialization, begins during the late gestation stages and continues through juvenile into sub-adult stage. People socialization...starts with the basic associations formed from handling shortly after birth until six or seven weeks, before the fear response escalates. Unless socialization on dogs and people is well underway by then, it has only a small chance of happening at all._" 

The useful point of this is how important it is to go to a breeder who is handling their puppies often and frequently. This is what puppymill dogs miss out on. 

Next the article gets to this critical period we are discussing here in this thread: 
"_The last half of the socialization period is marked by the development of fear responses starting in the *fifth week, escalating rapidly through the seventh week to a peak at nine weeks, then leveling off in the tenth week where it remains for the dog's life.* In general, anything associated with fear during weeks seven through nine in the non-socialized dog remains a fearful stimulus for life unless changed by systematic desensitizing. Fear of aversive stimuli occurring for the first time during this period, such as harsh punishment, isolation, or any strong fear-inducing stimulus, can result in extremes in behavior, abnormal fearfulness, difficulty in training or anti-social behavior as an adult. This part of this period is much like the seven or eight-month-old child who begins to cry when approached by a stranger, though he would have giggled at every stranger just a month earlier._"

"_The second general rule is that puppies should be exposed, at least in a preliminary way, to the circumstances in which they will live as an adult, and this should be done before three or four months old. The young puppy at eight to twelve weeks is highly malleable and adaptable, and this is the time to lay the foundation for its future life work. If puppies have very little or no previous human contact, seven weeks is conservative-six weeks would be a better age to get the pup. Waiting to 12 weeks would produce the so-called kennel-shy dog. *The only case I can imagine with no people exposure today is a multi-breed puppy mill run on a shoestring. Anyone who buys a ... pup from such a breeder is not popping on all cylinders.*:wacko1:

But assuming all is normal and the breeder is knowledgeable enough about his breed and cares enough about his pups to talk to, pet and handle them; expose them to noises, strange situations and, strange textures underfoot; and allows them to interact fully with mother and siblings, then Scott's rule one doesn't apply. The pups will have contact with humans, probably on a daily basis from birth onward, so seven weeks (6 to 8) will not necessarily be the best time for puppy to be taken from litter mates. Like everything else in life, the period from six to eight weeks has some down sides.

One down side is the rapid increase in fear responses, things like avoidance of strangers and fearfulness of new or strange situations. Barely noticeable at five weeks, fear escalates most in the seventh week. *Abrupt separation from mom and litter mates, the only rock-solid security the pup knows, is the most traumatic experience of its life so far.* Transplanting at seven weeks to a totally new environment is magnified because the developing fear is rapidly escalating. *Keeping the pup in the same situation it has previously associated with low fear during the three to six week-old period-same location, same mom, same litter mates and same breeder with same enriched environment routine-will smooth out the rough road that begins with the rapid development of the fear reflex late in week six and through week seven before it levels of in the tenth week.*_"

This is one of the best arguments for keeping dogs with their dam and littermates through the highest fear period. Separating them from the familiar at this time can actually do harm and traumatize them. Socialization is supposed to reinforce positive associations during this period, not present stimuli that may cause higher stress levels. 

And here is another one of the big arguments for why a puppy should continue on with the dam and littermates at this stage: 
"_...the socialization process of dogs on dogs is not yet completed at seven weeks. Establishment of these social connections and honing them will go on for some weeks and even months in the case of some behaviors. Sure, a dog can survive without it and millions do but* the dog will be more complete socially if it could have another three weeks with mom and all the kids at home.*_"

Even if you have another dog at home, this is not the same kind of interaction that this article is referencing. For example, you can never let your much larger dog play with a tiny puppy of this age (or any age really) unsupervised. Their contact must be limited by the potential risks involved. They can never interact in the way the dam and litter mates can. The dam and litter-mates can have near constant, close contact and frequent play and learning sessions. 

And here is the final argument: 
"_So when should you go knock on the breeder's door to pick up your puppy? First, the answer depends on the breeder and on how he/she treats the bitch and the pups. If it's the puppy factory alluded to earlier, where pups got little or no human contact from birth until you arrived to pick out your pup, seven weeks is already too late. If you must deal with such a breeder, *and I can think of no reason why you would*, six weeks is the oldest if you hope to save the pup. With the rapid onset of the fear response at seven weeks, every day after six weeks old increases the probability of the pup suffering because there is a lack of human contact. The dog, depending on inherited temperament and breed, will be impossible or at best extremely difficult to train, may be a fear-biter, surely will be people-shy, and will act like a wild canid generally if left in the litter with no human contact for its first 12 weeks.

But if the breeder is reputable and knows a modicum of dog behavior and has the whelping and growing pen in the middle of where everyone passes (who can resist getting their hands into a group of chubby little pups clamoring for attention?) seven weeks is too young to leave home. *Older is better*._"

Again, if you are working with a reputable breeder, they should know the value of keeping a small puppy with the dam and littermates and providing the kind of dog-on-dog socialization as well as the human-canine socialization that benefits your dog. 

I have to admit I have been thinking about this post a lot today and I continue to be very discouraged by the "professionals" in this situation, the breeder and the veterinarian who are willing to dismiss the reasons that this rule exists in such a cavalier fashion. 

And I have to admit, when I first considered it, I thought you are clearly someone who knows dogs, so I can see why the breeder and the vet have such faith in you, but then I thought further and I remembered that you have a very young child in the home and a signifigantly larger dog. Both of these elements would make most breeders think twice about putting a such a fragile baby in that kind of environment. In this critical month between the age you are planning to get your puppy and the 12 weeks it would be safer to do so, your puppy will grow a third of its body weight. This makes a huge difference in the relative fragility of the puppy. 

The AMA website also has a wonderful article explaining the 12 week rule The whole article is worthy of a read, but the last line makes a very interesting comparison between a puppy at about 9 weeks versus one about 12 weeks. They say it is like the difference between a premie baby and a fully developed healthy baby coming home to stay. I think the analogy is an apt one. 

Anyway, I hope you will reconsider taking your puppy so young, especially given your particular circumstances and considering that you want the very best start for your puppy, but even if your mind is already firmly made up, I hope that sharing this information helps others to understand the benefits of patience and that staying with a breeder (who cares about socialization) offers the best possible start for their puppy.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> :goodpost:
> Thank you SOOOO Much for posting this. I think it makes some fabulous points. If you do not mind my quoting here, I want to share some of my favorites since some people may not find that zoom button and it is a bit hard to read.
> 
> The article does a nice job of discussing the breakdown of canine developmental stages. Here is one that I think is particularly well stated and important to consider:
> ...


:ThankYou::good post - perfect


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

babycake7 said:


> Hi April,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your personal experience. All of this information helps contribute to people making better informed decisions based on the info available and their own personal opinions. Your babies are beautiful!!


Thank you. :blush:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I just have to step in on this and say that if your breeder is an AMA member this could be considered a breach of the code of ethics. Every member signs this agreement saying that they will not let their puppies go before 12 weeks of age. One of my biggest issues with this is that if they are willing to set aside this aspect of the code, are they also willing to set aside other aspects of the code? Breeders who violate this code can be brought up on charges and suspended from the AMA.
> 
> I also would like to raise a very serious quarrel I have with your vet statement about it being ridiculous to wait until 12 weeks.  Toy breed puppies (unlike Aussies) are traditionally kept until 12 weeks or later. This is not just a Maltese thing.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost:Amen!


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

:goodpost:


CloudClan said:


> :goodpost:
> Thank you SOOOO Much for posting this. I think it makes some fabulous points. If you do not mind my quoting here, I want to share some of my favorites since some people may not find that zoom button and it is a bit hard to read.
> 
> The article does a nice job of discussing the breakdown of canine developmental stages. Here is one that I think is particularly well stated and important to consider:
> ...


I agree 100% with this post.:goodpost:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

CloudClan said:


> :goodpost:
> Thank you SOOOO Much for posting this. I think it makes some fabulous points. If you do not mind my quoting here, I want to share some of my favorites since some people may not find that zoom button and it is a bit hard to read.
> 
> The article does a nice job of discussing the breakdown of canine developmental stages. Here is one that I think is particularly well stated and important to consider:
> ...


Another fabulous post, Carina! :aktion033:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> *Hope, best of luck with your new little one.*
> 
> *Setting aside ethics and vet opinions, I keep my puppies until they are at least 16 weeks old. Definitely a lot more work and more expense on my end but the puppy that gets placed, like Carina's puppies, is fully socialized, fully vaccinated, potty pad trained, leashed trained, accustomed to sleeping alone and already bile acid tested. There are no surprises for me or my puppy's new owner and generally insures a stress free and easy transition for the puppy. And the bottom line for me will always be what I think is best for the puppy.*


This was the last post that I saw when I woke up this morning, and this is the post I really wanted Hope to see and hope it doesn't get lost on the additional onslaught of inforamtion, yes, valuable information, but nonetheless, personally, I think Mary, having a great deal of knowledge in many areas, manage to say what is most important if a few sentences, that are far easier to read, I think when people such as her vets are telling her one thing, and then recieiving additinal information that conflicts that. It is alot to take in.

I get what everyone is saying, and I am sure Hope does as well. 

People are probably thinking, "Why is Christine getting involved :blink:", because I am. 

There are many ways of helping people, miine may be completely different than most, or some, but getting to the best end result is most important.

Now has everyone had their say, so that Hope can get a chance to digest it, I hope so.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

allheart said:


> *
> Now has everyone had their say, so that Hope can get a chance to digest it, I hope so.*


Christine, I love you, and I know you mean well, but this was opened up by Hope as a conversation, and I find this last statement to be a conversation stopper--which wasn't the idea when it was opened by Hope herself. I hope you don't think I am being intentionally rude---that isn't my intention. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I am learning a lot from the dialogue.
I am certain, as I have been here long enough now, that everyone wishes Hope only the best w/baby Bella---God knows we love all of these babies--that almost goes w/out saying. Whether or not people agree that Hope is doing the "right" thing by bringing home a "premature baby" (in terms of the AMA's studied and critical regulations) does not mean that people won't pull for Bella & Hope---it just means that some of us believe that these regulations are meant for the good of the breed. There is a huge difference in big and toy dogs. Regulations are established for particular reasons and a breeder who would agree to abide by those regulations and then purposefully disregard them is not what I would call an "ethical breeder," regardless of what her/his established reputation might be. 
It would seem from the facts that this breeder has violated the rules:1. not to adopt out a puppy to someone w/small children 2. not to adopt out a puppy under 12 weeks of age. 
If "extenuating circumstances" are allowed in particular cases why not just do away w/the regulations and let everyone do what they feel is right?


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## LexiMom (Feb 7, 2012)

allheart said:


> This was the last post that I saw when I woke up this morning, and this is the post I really wanted Hope to see and hope it doesn't get lost on the additional onslaught of inforamtion, yes, valuable information, but nonetheless, personally, I think Mary, having a great deal of knowledge in many areas, manage to say what is most important if a few sentences, that are far easier to read, I think when people such as her vets are telling her one thing, and then recieiving additinal information that conflicts that. It is alot to take in.
> 
> I get what eve:goodpost:ryone is saying, and I am sure Hope does as well.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> Christine, I love you, and I know you mean well, but this was opened up by Hope as a conversation, and I find this last statement to be a conversation stopper--which wasn't the idea when it was opened by Hope herself. I hope you don't think I am being intentionally rude---that isn't my intention. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I am learning a lot from the dialogue.
> I am certain, as I have been here long enough now, that everyone wishes Hope only the best w/baby Bella---God knows we love all of these babies--that almost goes w/out saying. Whether or not people agree that Hope is doing the "right" thing by bringing home a "premature baby" (in terms of the AMA's studied and critical regulations) does not mean that people won't pull for Bella & Hope---it just means that some of us believe that these regulations are meant for the good of the breed. There is a huge difference in big and toy dogs. Regulations are established for particular reasons and a breeder who would agree to abide by those regulations and then purposefully disregard them is not what I would call an "ethical breeder," regardless of what her/his established reputation might be.
> It would seem from the facts that this breeder has violated the rules:1. not to adopt out a puppy to someone w/small children 2. not to adopt out a puppy under 12 weeks of age.
> If "extenuating circumstances" are allowed in particular cases why not just do away w/the regulations and let everyone do what they feel is right?



I just wanted to add that while there is definitely a rule about not adopting out until 12 weeks, there is not a 'rule' about placing puppies with families with small children. That is more a case by case situation. Marina was 7 years old when when we got Lucy and I would hate to think what the breed would have missed out on if I had been told that I couldn't have Lucy because I had a small child at home. 

From raising a few litters though, I personally would never make an exception about placing a puppy younger than 12 weeks. I have seen how much they learn from their littermates during the 8-12 week window and would not want them to miss out on that. So it's not even that I signed the AMA code of ethics that would make me stick to this, but I also happen to agree wholeheartedly with it. 

I sure hope everything works out and little Bella is everything you want her to be! She's a cutie and I look forward to watching her grow up on SM!


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

If I have learned nothing else on this forum, I have learned one thing...it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Had I announced that I picked up Bella AFTER I got her, rather than being honest and announcing her upcoming homecoming BEFORE I received her, I would have been like everyone else that has gotten a younger puppy and received some gentle chastising along with some kind hearted well wishes. I NEVER desired to be in a position to have to defend myself and I won't start now. However, let me clarify for those of you who are concerned about my home environment. YES, I do have a significantly larger dog in my home. He is a SERVICE/ASSISTANCE dog who has complete and total PUBLIC ACCESS (same as a guide dog, etc) and is protected by state and federal law. He is a Golden Retriever and he is 71 pounds. From the time he was 8 weeks old until the time he graduated and was certified for service work at the age of 2.5 years, he was in training each and every day of his life. His job with me is to work with children who are in the legal system due to abuse and neglect and children who have been victims or witnesses of violent crimes. Because of the nature of his personality and the skills he now has and the fact that he works daily in very emotionally charged and tense situations, you can pretty much land a helicopter on his head and he wouldn't bat an eyelash. He has been tested in pretty much every possible way around adults, children, and other dogs of all breeds and temperaments from totally passive to completely aggressive, in all kinds of different settings, to make sure that he had no unpredictable behaviors or reactions that could be harmful in any way. He was "gifted" to me by the organization that raised and trained him so he could do the work that he now does, but his "value" (and really, there is no dollar amount that you can put on the amazing work that he does) would be at a very minimum $40,000 based on the training that has been put into him and now continues to be put into him by ME. Aside from a rigorous application process, I had to go through a home inspection which included an evaluation of my children's behaviors that makes an IRS audit look like a day in the park. After all that, I attended two weeks of INTENSIVE all-day, every day training with him. Do you think that after the many years of wanting a Maltese that I would risk brining a puppy or dog into my home if I thought there was any chance of it getting hurt by my service animal? More importantly, do you think I would risk losing my public access and my career because I brought a puppy or dog into my home that would be hurt by my service animal?!!! And as for my children. Yes, I have two. One will be 13 in July and the youngest will be 6 next month. Now I know everyone wants to believe that their own kids are special and different but my boys are just that...boys..but they are boys who have known from a very young age how to act around animals. And they are my kids and I love them so I will defend them. They have also been raised around dogs and other animals their wholes lives and apparently, they were good enough for the service dog organization to feel that they could be trusted around a very valuable dog and not "undo" his behaviors because of their inability to follow the rules so I am not sure why they continue to be in question on this forum. I don't know how everyone else on this forum raises their children but I know how I raise mine. And, I sure wouldn't be bringing a puppy into my home just to satisfy my own wishes only so it could end up with something bad happening or the puppy growing into a dog with behavior problems if I didn't feel my children could be trusted 110%. I, my vets, and the other professionals I actively work with, TRUST my children because we have seen with our own eyes that they can follow the rules and they can control their actions and impulses. Furthermore, my children have been raised among race horses since the time they were born. Anyone on this forum who is an equestrian knows what unpredictable animals horses tend to be. A race horse is often that multiplied by a thousand. And so thus, my dear children have had an extra dose of the "how to behave around animals with respect" lesson. Can you imagine...no one has died, no one has been injured, and no horses have been harmed as a result of my children's actions or inactions or my inability to provide proper supervision. Am I stupid enough to leave a child in a room alone with a loaded gun? No. So will I be leaving either of my children alone with a small puppy? No. 

As for the literature that continues to be on the "suggested reading list", trust me, I will be reading it ASAP. Does that mean I will agree with it? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But will I value it for the perspective that it can provide as I continue to grow and learn? Absolutely. While I will continue to keep my mind open to any information, experience, education, and literature on this forum, it does not mean that I will dismiss the advice, experience and knowledge of those people that I am fortunate to work with daily who have spent their entire careers living and working among dogs....not just breeding dogs...but studying their behaviors, health, development, etc. and not just in a labratory setting but living with them in both their home and career life. These are people who know my individual situation, my experience, my skills, my strengths, my weakness, my kids personalities, my kids' behaviors, etc. They know ME. I am not just a generalization to them. 

Now I don't want anyone here to think that I am being a little witch or that I have my "knickers in a twist" (thank you for that saying, Christine!! XO) but I am not sure what to make of all this. I came here for fun, friendship, education, sharing, and while there has been plenty of all that good stuff there has been a lot of "holier than thou" lately and it makes me sad. 

had hoped that people would be happy and supportive, whether they agreed with my decision or not, and many of you were...and to those, THANK YOU!!!! But to those who continue to bring my children and my other dogs into this among other things, not so cool. And to those who believe that the 12 week rule is the gospel according to Jesus Christ in all situations, I got the memo the first time. I respect your opinion and I've said it more than once, but puuuuullllleeeezzzz, if you want to keep waging that war, start a new thread. I was just trying to announce that I was going to get my dog! 

What really concerns me is there seems to be so many people hoping that I will change my mind and not pick up Bella, but little to no concern with who exactly are these breeders on the AMA list who are violating the code that they have been charged with upholding. There is a lot of spouting about the AMA and the code of ethics but not a lot of concern that newbies to the forum are continuing to be referred to these very same breeders that break the code. Its a lot of rhetoric but no action to correct the situation it seems IMHO and somewhat hypocritical. There has been a lot of spouting about the AMA and its reputable breeders but no matter how many times someone brings up a bad experience with an AMA breeder or a breech in the code of ethics, it just gets glossed over. It kind of reminds me of all the bs that politicians wax on about the sanctity of marriage, while they are running around having affairs with everything in a skirt. Let's not be hypocritical, people. There is a lot of concern for saving me from picking up the puppy but little REAL concern with trying to actively put a STOP to the AMA breeders who have taken a code of ethics yet pull switches with pups and release puppies early, not to mention those others who treat potential puppy parents like dog doo. It's the whole, "I am going to pretend my husband is Mr. Perfect even though he is having an affair. I am just not going to acknowledge it" attitude. There is a whole lot of that going for sure. If the code of ehtics is so important to you, and I totally respect it if it is, then concentrate on finding the thieves among you who are letting you and your beliefs down! Because when you recommend those particular breeders to other people and they don't live up to what you stand by, its a reflection on you.

So, that's that. If I have offended anyone. I apologize. But I've already tried to end this thread yesterday with a little humor and it keeps on roaring its ugly head. So now I am trying to be honest (although look where that got me) and end it by stating what I truly feel. Please ladies, enough is enough. Can we move on?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Hope, if you'd like to end this thread, just pm one of our mods and ask that it be closed.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I have stayed out of this thread and bitten my tongue, but watched it closely.

Hope -- I'm not certain why you started this thread unless it was to raise controversy. It dosen't appear from your original post that you were asking for the advice or thoughts of SM Members but simply announcing that you were bringing your new puppy home at 9 weeks and the reasons why. You even indicated that you already knew that there would be many here that opposed that decision.

As it appears that this thread may be turning nasty on a personal basis, I am closing it. 

If we want to have a discuss about timing on bringing home a new puppy or about the ethics of AMA breeders, please start a new thread in the Breeders Section of the forum.


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