# I spoke to DU TRAN (Diamond Maltese breeder)



## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

....regarding Dolcina's situation with GME.

I told him all that we have been going through (Doctors, Neurologists, Emergencies, Tests, CT, MRI etc....).

I told him that I thought he should know about it so that he doesn't breed that line anymore. He said that he retired both parents.

In addition, he immediately offered me another retiree for free which I thought was very nice of him. That pup is 2 years old and will be ready in 2 months.

If I decide to get her, I told him that I will pay him for a titer test to make sure she is healthy. What is that test called exactly? Does anyone know?

I am kind of reluctant taking a 3rd pup but can't pass that offer because I always wanted more than 2 pupps around in the house. 

In reality, with all that is going on with Dolcina, and the expenses that I have been having,
I think it is crazy to have another pupp, but I want it I want it I want it.:Sunny Smile::Sunny Smile::Sunny Smile:


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

I cant help. but bless your heart. you have really been through it Sammy.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Awww! is the the Bile acid test you mean? Titer is for immunity. 

I would say do what your heart tells you. Maybe a new little one will boost everyones spirits.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I don't know what stage GME Dolcina is in, but if it were me, I would take into consideration the potential stress of bringing a new dog into the household for her. Sometimes diseases of the brain will make it more difficult to cope with normal everyday activities, and if Dolcina were to be taking steroids, that can also add to the inability to cope. 

I've had major health issues this year and have been on mega doses of steroids several times. I was surprised how nutty I was on the steroids. The tiniest little incidence totally stressed me out.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I just looked up an article on GME and one of the recommendations was to maintain a stress-free environment for the dog. 

I also know from my experiences this year that even good stress can be overwhelming when you're very sick and on steroids.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

As far as I know there is no test for GME for now. The bile acid test is for liver shunt.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

I just pray for the very best outcome.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Perhaps he will give you another down the line. I agree that another dog right now would be stressful. Hugs to that sweet baby.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Cosy said:


> Perhaps he will give you another down the line. I agree that another dog right now would be stressful. Hugs to that sweet baby.


 
Yes, that was my thinking too. Not to burst your bubble at all, but down the line may be much better, and then this way, you can tend to your sweet baby. 

Hugs.


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## lynda (Oct 11, 2005)

I don't want to take the joy out of your wanting a new little one but I do have to agree with the others. This is not the best time for you or Dolcina to add a new fluff. I am sending hugs and positive thoughts to you both.:grouphug::grouphug:


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## jambetmaltese (Nov 1, 2009)

Your Maltese is not the first to have been diagnosised with GME. THERE ARE OTHERS. I sold two puppies, out of the country, within the year, one is dead from GME, and the other has Liver shunt. Both puppies were produced from Du Van Tran dogs, that were sold to me with breeding rights.Diamonds Top Collecton and Diamonds skies the Limit. I am refunding the money to the buyer, as any responsible breeder would do. When I contacted Du, asking him to make good on the dead puppy, he replied, "I sell to you, what you do with them is not me." in short, he did not stand behind his dogs, and I am left holding the bag. And I am out thousands of dollars. I had the bitch spayed and placed for free in a forever home, and the male is neutered and will in a new home, when I find someone that is right for him.


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## jambetmaltese (Nov 1, 2009)

*Gme*



silverhaven said:


> Awww! is the the Bile acid test you mean? Titer is for immunity.
> 
> I would say do what your heart tells you. Maybe a new little one will boost everyones spirits.


 
There is NO test for GME Bile Acid helps pinpoint LIVER SHUNT Betty


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Sammy, I know the lure of another dog is tempting. I can't judge because did get my Truffles after Lola was diagnosed. You have to take many things into consideration. How will Dolcina be affected, can you bear the cost of a sick dog and still bring another pet into the family and afford that dog the food, grooming and vet care it will need. And my biggest worry with this scenario is that you are getting the dog from the same breeder as Dolcina. What if this dog were to become sick as well. What would you do? I got Truffles from a very reliable breeder with no history of GME. Just make sure that you have your bases covered and don't make this decision purely on emotion.


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

jambetmaltese said:


> Your Maltese is not the first to have been diagnosised with GME. THERE ARE OTHERS. I sold two puppies, out of the country, within the year, one is dead from GME, and the other has Liver shunt. Both puppies were produced from Du Van Tran dogs, that were sold to me with breeding rights.Diamonds Top Collecton and Diamonds skies the Limit. I am refunding the money to the buyer, as any responsible breeder would do. When I contacted Du, asking him to make good on the dead puppy, he replied, "I sell to you, what you do with them is not me." in short, he did not stand behind his dogs, and I am left holding the bag. And I am out thousands of dollars. I had the bitch spayed and placed for free in a forever home, and the male is neutered and will in a new home, when I find someone that is right for him.


OMG now I am really scared!

Your message made me think again, and I will not get a puppy from him, even if it's for free.

I also listen to what others had to say and probably it is better that I concentrate on giving all the care that Dolcina needs, rather than get a 3rd puppy. 

She needs a lot of care, medications, blood tests, Vet's visits and that will costs me thousands more $$$$ in addition to the thousands of $$$$ I have already spent.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Sammy - I would wait for all the reasons listed. I think you'll have your hands filled with taking care of precious Dolcina. I think having two dogs at this point is enough and you can concentrate on what you have to do and where you have to be. There's always time later to add another to your family.


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

Snowbody said:


> Sammy - I would wait for all the reasons listed. I think you'll have your hands filled with taking care of precious Dolcina. I think having two dogs at this point is enough and you can concentrate on what you have to do and where you have to be. There's always time later to add another to your family.


I couldn't have said it better, Susan, and so, it has been decided: no 3rd pupp and certainly not from the same source:faint:


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

jambetmaltese said:


> There is NO test for GME Bile Acid helps pinpoint LIVER SHUNT Betty


Yes, I am aware. It is the only test that you can get though, health wise, except for full bloodwork to help guard against potential issues. So I thought that is what was alluded to, sorry I wasn't totally clear.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

jambetmaltese said:


> Your Maltese is not the first to have been diagnosised with GME. THERE ARE OTHERS. I sold two puppies, out of the country, within the year, one is dead from GME, and the other has Liver shunt. Both puppies were produced from Du Van Tran dogs, that were sold to me with breeding rights.Diamonds Top Collecton and Diamonds skies the Limit. I am refunding the money to the buyer, as any responsible breeder would do. When I contacted Du, asking him to make good on the dead puppy, he replied, "I sell to you, what you do with them is not me." in short, he did not stand behind his dogs, and I am left holding the bag. And I am out thousands of dollars. I had the bitch spayed and placed for free in a forever home, and the male is neutered and will in a new home, when I find someone that is right for him.


I am sorry. That sounds like a horrendous situation


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

On further thought, maybe you do need quite a bit more time, when your are feeling less emotional about it all Sammy. Just too much for you to worry and cope with at this time.  :grouphug:


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

silverhaven said:


> On further thought, maybe you do need quite a bit more time, when your are feeling less emotional about it all Sammy. Just too much for you to worry and cope with at this time.  :grouphug:





I am so grateful that friends here on SM had put some sense into my head:blink:
what was I thinking:smilie_tischkante:....
and specially from the same breeder???:w00t:
...and at this time of such stress????:beating a dead horsI would have beaten myself later for taking such additional responsibility.
:ThankYou::ThankYou::ThankYou: for helping me with the decision.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Sammy -- I'm glad that you've re-thought your decision. I know how tempting another fluff is, but have to agree that you have your hands full right now.

Also, you are just beginning the treatments for Dolcina and don't really know yet what is going to happen. The protocol may need to be adjusted (even several times) before the "right" combination of drugs is found. 

It's always so easy to look in from the outside and say you should or shouldn't do something, but I think that everyone has given their opinion based on their love and concern for you and Dolcina.

I wouldn't close the door with Du -- just explain that the timing isn't right.

Hugs to you and your precious girls.


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## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

Sammy, I understand where you are coming from. These are very hard decisions and you make them after talking with everyone. You were thinking that Dolcina would be comforted with another little one. I too am of the opinion that I would go with another breeder that does not have GME in their bloodlines. That does not make it 100% but it will be better odds. Dolcina needs your undivided attention right now. She is so precious and she will feel your love and that is most important right now. Hugs and love to you!!!


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Sammy -- I'm glad that you've re-thought your decision. I know how tempting another fluff is, but have to agree that you have your hands full right now.
> 
> Also, you are just beginning the treatments for Dolcina and don't really know yet what is going to happen. The protocol may need to be adjusted (even several times) before the "right" combination of drugs is found.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

Lacie's Mom said:


> Sammy - I think that everyone has given their opinion based on their love and concern for you and Dolcina.


:aktion033:I know







CeeCee's Mom said:


> Sammy, I too am of the opinion that I would go with another breeder that does not have GME in their bloodlines...... She is so precious Hugs and love to you!!!


From BIG BOW LOVER to A BIG BOW LOVER:aktion033:well said


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## jambetmaltese (Nov 1, 2009)

Would you be willing to post your puppies pedigree or send it to me privately?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

jambetmaltese said:


> Would you be willing to post your puppies pedigree or send it to me privately?


Sammy actually posted it awhile ago.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-...ved-pedigree-certificate-dolcina-mr-tran.html


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

Ladysmom said:


> Sammy actually posted it awhile ago.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-...ved-pedigree-certificate-dolcina-mr-tran.html


I totally forgot that I posted it, how interesting!

We are coming full circle now, for other members to need to know if their pupps are related to this blood line, hopefully not:blink:.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Piccolina said:


> I totally forgot that I posted it, how interesting!
> 
> We are coming full circle now, for other members to need to know if their pupps are related to this blood line, hopefully not:blink:.


Here's the complete pedigree information:

Dolcina's Dam:

WebGeneal 4.7.7 (2010.08.08)

Dolcina's Sire:

WebGeneal 4.7.7 (2010.08.08)


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## OldStyle (Jan 30, 2012)

jambetmaltese said:


> Your Maltese is not the first to have been diagnosised with GME. THERE ARE OTHERS. I sold two puppies, out of the country, within the year, one is dead from GME, and the other has Liver shunt. Both puppies were produced from Du Van Tran dogs, that were sold to me with breeding rights.Diamonds Top Collecton and Diamonds skies the Limit. I am refunding the money to the buyer, as any responsible breeder would do. When I contacted Du, asking him to make good on the dead puppy, he replied, "I sell to you, what you do with them is not me." in short, he did not stand behind his dogs, and I am left holding the bag. And I am out thousands of dollars. I had the bitch spayed and placed for free in a forever home, and the male is neutered and will in a new home, when I find someone that is right for him.


I'm a long-time lurker, but decided to finally sign up when I read this.

First, condolences for your misfortune. I don't know any involved party personally, so I have no "sides" here but your post raises some interesting questions I'd like to throw on the table.

1) I took a look at the pedigrees of Diamonds Top Collecton and Diamonds Skies the Limit. Did you look at them before you bred them? With your vast breeding experience, and your knowledge of the pedigrees involved - how surprised are you really that there was a problem? I guess the more relevant question would be: Did you choose to breed these dogs with one another (as opposed to using other dogs known to be healthy) or were you compelled by a condition of your agreement with Diamond?

2) It's common for breeders to guarantee the health of their puppies, usually one year by contract, yes? How many breeders guarantee the health of the next generation of puppies bred (and sold) by another breeder, 3 years later? How long, and for how many generations is a breeder responsible for dogs used by another breeder?

3) Did Diamond Maltese receive payment for the sale of your puppies or did you receive payment for the sale of your puppies? I would think that whomever cashed the checks should be the same person writing the reimbursement checks, no?

4) The dogs involved are all 3+ years old? Does anybody know if Diamond Maltese has since removed the suspect dogs from its breeding program? Genetic disorders can pop up anywhere, and the reputation of the breeder should be judged on how the problem is handled rather than the fact that they had the misfortune in the first place.


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

OldStyle said:


> 4) The dogs involved are all 3+ years old? Does anybody know if Diamond Maltese has since removed the suspect dogs from its breeding program?



To the breeder credit I will say this:
When I told DU TRAN what is happening with Dolcina (aka Diamond Princess Diana), he immediately offered me another retiree FOR FREE.

When I expressed my concerned that the pupp may have AGAIN the same health issues, he assured me that THAT LINE has been retired from breeding and I should not worry.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Piccolina said:


> To the breeder credit I will say this:
> When I told DU TRAN what is happening with Dolcina (aka Diamond Princess Diana), he immediately offered me another retiree FOR FREE.
> 
> When I expressed my concerned that the pupp may have AGAIN the same health issues, he assured me that THAT LINE has been retired from breeding and I should not worry.


So he is aware of GME and knows what lines are affected? I thought you said he told you that he didn't know what GME was? 

So sorry that you are going through this Sammy!


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

bellaratamaltese said:


> I thought you said he told you that he didn't know what GME was?


He sure did, however, when I said I was worried that he would give me another pupp that may "have the same problems", he said :"don't worry, that line has been retired".


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## jambetmaltese (Nov 1, 2009)

Thank you very much. I cannot figure out how to print them out from here, would you consider emaiing the two links to me at [email protected]


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

OldStyle said:


> I'm a long-time lurker, but decided to finally sign up when I read this.
> 
> First, condolences for your misfortune. I don't know any involved party personally, so I have no "sides" here but your post raises some interesting questions I'd like to throw on the table.
> 
> ...


Oldstyle, would you like to introduce yourself? It is clear that you are not a newbie to the breed and to Maltese from the message you have posted. It would be nice if you could share your history with us.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Dolcina's grandsire on her Dam's side (CH Angel's Blue Diamond) is a littermate of Secret's. Their other littermate was Rumour.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Can someone kindly explain to me why just this particular pedigree/lines is (are) being singled out for scrutiny since we have lost numerous other dogs to GME this year? I don't understand. Will the other pedigrees be listed as well. 
Since dogs w/no known GME can produce dogs w/GME & there is no genetic marker what is the point?


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## jambetmaltese (Nov 1, 2009)

*Gme*



edelweiss said:


> Can someone kindly explain to me why just this particular pedigree/lines is (are) being singled out for scrutiny since we have lost numerous other dogs to GME this year? I don't understand. Will the other pedigrees be listed as well.
> Since dogs w/no known GME can produce dogs w/GME & there is no genetic marker what is the point?[/QUOTE
> 
> line's has been targeted, at least not by me. I did not post info here to create animosity, I had hoped that with enough information combined, we could have a starting point to help researcher's FIND some answers.
> There are researcher's at the University of GA, working to find markers, but it will take the support and cooperation of most breeder's, as well as Companion owner's, to submit sample's from Healthy Maltese,as well as affected dogs(sick or deceased) to establish a base line to work from. I must say, that MOST Breeder's will not stick their neck out BECAUSE they KNOW there are certain people that will make waves and POINT finger's back at them, and their Kennel. SO THEY KEEP QUIET.The answers we may find in the future depends on a stating point. I have been breeding For 20 plus years from some of the most well known kennels in the US So you can bet my kennel is included right along with everyone else. SM is well known for their support of the DOGS. And that is why I chose this forum,(in addition to the GME post from a lady that was struggling to keep her precious Maltese alive, at any expense. And was offered a 2 yr old retiree. I am not aware of any breeder that retires a 2 year old, unless they have some kind of issue). If one breeder screws up and does not stand behind his/her breeding that is one thing, that is not the same, as attacking all breeders. Most breeder's, including myself, just do the best we can with what we have, and try to keep making each future litter even better than the one before. Do we always suceed? NO, but most of us get the bad gene's out as soon as possible, prImarily by retiring the affected dogs, spay and neuter , and never repeat those breeding in the future. I did not mean to write a book, I am just very passionate about this cause. I pray that we find an answer in the near future. Betty White of Jambet Maltese


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Betty -- I think we are all very concerned about GME/NME. In fact, SM is currently sponsoring a raffle to help fund the research.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/59-...e-related/117137-have-heart-raffle-event.html

Although we all want to help on this as much as possible, I don't think we want to single out any one breeder. As we know, this is happening in all lines and there is currently no answer at all -- no marker, no cure, no long-term treatment. And we need to "pull together" to help eradicate this horrible disease.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

No single line can be targeted. As for breeders being reticient in cooperating with the research, I hope that they know the results are all completely confidential. There will be no finger pointing, as a matter of fact, they will not be contacted at any time. My personal feeling is, GME (and the host of auto immune inflamatory brain disorders that fall under this term) are _simply in our breed_ regardless of the caliber of the breeder. BYB dogs, mill dogs and extremely well bred dogs have been affected. Why? Because this has been off everyones radar for way too long. Now we are dealing with the repercussions. It's a bit like genetic russian roulette at this point.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> No single line can be targeted. As for breeders being reticient in cooperating with the research, I hope that they know the results are all completely confidential. There will be no finger pointing, as a matter of fact, they will not be contacted at any time. My personal feeling is, GME (and the host of auto immune inflamatory brain disorders that fall under this term) are _simply in our breed_ regardless of the caliber of the breeder. BYB dogs, mill dogs and extremely well bred dogs have been affected. Why? Because this has been off everyones radar for way too long. Now we are dealing with the repercussions. It's a bit like genetic russian roulette at this point.


Pam, so well said. It's about the disease, finding a cure, or getting rid of it all together. 

I am so sorry to everyone who had a furbaby effected by this disease, and the fur-babies themselves. 

So the more research that can be done, the better.


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

allheart said:


> I am so sorry to everyone who had a furbaby effected by this disease, and the fur-babies themselves.


:crying::crying::crying:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Piccolina said:


> :crying::crying::crying:


I'm so sorry Sammy. Bless your heart.


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks Pam, that's what I was wondering if there was a higher percentage of well bred Maltese as opposed to BYB or PuppyMill dog's that contact this disease.


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## jambetmaltese (Nov 1, 2009)

*Gme*



CloudClan said:


> Oldstyle, would you like to introduce yourself? It is clear that you are not a newbie to the breed and to Maltese from the message you have posted. It would be nice if you could share your history with us.


I would like to reply to Oldstyle. Yes, I looked at the pedigree's, and at the time, I saw nothing to indicate I would end up with one puppy that developed GME (Now dead) and a second puppy that has Liver shunt. I have bred with some of these lines, for a long time, and I have Never had these problem with my lines. I never started out to badmouth ANY lines, I was upset with one breeder, who did not take responsiblity for what he produced. The owneris being reimbursed by me for the cost of the dog. I simply ask him to give my customer, one of the two puppies, he was trying to sell her, because of her high medical expenses and the lost of her baby girl. I have since learned of puppies from his kennel that has been diagnoised with: PDA's, Liver Shunt's , Glucoma,( that resulted in the puppy being Blind, before it was two years of age), and NOW there are several puppies produced with GME. This many problems from one kennel cannot be a coincedence. I don't understand why you felt the need to make the comment about taking "sides" There should be no sides.


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## jambetmaltese (Nov 1, 2009)

*Gme*



CloudClan said:


> Oldstyle, would you like to introduce yourself? It is clear that you are not a newbie to the breed and to Maltese from the message you have posted. It would be nice if you could share your history with us.


I would like to reply to Oldstyle. Yes, I looked at the pedigree's, and at the time, I saw nothing to indicate I would end up with one puppy that developed GME (Now dead) and a second puppy that has Liver shunt. I have bred with some of these lines, for a long time, and I have Never had these problem with my lines. I never started out to badmouth ANY lines, I was upset with one breeder, who did not take responsiblity for what he produced. The owneris being reimbursed by me for the cost of the dog. I simply ask him to give my customer, one of the two puppies, he was trying to sell her, because of her high medical expenses and the lost of her baby girl. I have since learned of puppies from his kennel that has been diagnoised with: PDA's, Liver Shunt's , Glucoma,( that resulted in the puppy being Blind, before it was two years of age), and NOW there are several puppies produced with GME. This many problems from one kennel cannot be a coincedence. I don't understand why you felt the need to make the comment about taking "sides" There should be no sides.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

My heart goes out to all who have had to deal with GME, whether in their pets or in their breeding programs.

Betty, your passion on this subject is obvious and admirable but I honestly don't condone or see any tangible benefits from the approach you are taking. Whether intentional or not, you are singling out one particular breeder and reality is that GME, liver shunt, PDA, glaucoma, hip dysplasia, cancer, and on and on are all diseases that have appeared in many pure breed and mixed breed dogs. Quite frankly, the easiest way to get breeders to clam up and refuse to participate in genetic research studies is to go public naming names and asking for pedigrees. Why not instead harness your passion and direct it toward encouraging your fellow breeders to share DNA samples and pedigrees with the researchers at the University of Georgia Vet School where all information received will be treated with the utmost confidence. These folks are the scientific geniuses who NEED our cooperation as breeders in order to someday unlock the genetic mysteries behind the diseases we are faced with. About issues and/or disputes with breeders or buyers, this is not the place to air that laundry. Take it private and keep it private.

As for GME not being on the radar screens of breeders, I must respectfully disagree. I've owned Maltese for 13+ years, first heard about GME well over 10 years ago and have had ongoing discussions with many breeders, vets and researchers since I first heard about it. I can assure you that I am not the only person or breeder who has GME on their radar screen. The difference is that most of us do not publicize our discussions or the reasoning behind each and every breeding choice we make on the internet.

Lastly, advising anyone to stay away from any lines that have been known to produce X, Y or Z is not very sound advice in my humble opinion. I don't know of any responsible, ethical breeder of any breed who would breed an affected dog having a life threatening disease. Unfortunately, by the time a dog of their breeding has presented as an affected dog there is a great likelihood that other offspring have also been produced by prior or subsequent breedings. That's when tact, diplomacy and honesty can AND DO come into play.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

Thank you, Mary. The voice of reason speaks again.


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

revakb2 said:


> Thank you, Mary. The voice of reason speaks again.


I agree. Good post, Mary.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

MaryH said:


> My heart goes out to all who have had to deal with GME, whether in their pets or in their breeding programs.
> 
> Betty, your passion on this subject is obvious and admirable but I honestly don't condone or see any tangible benefits from the approach you are taking. Whether intentional or not, you are singling out one particular breeder and reality is that GME, liver shunt, PDA, glaucoma, hip dysplasia, cancer, and on and on are all diseases that have appeared in many pure breed and mixed breed dogs. Quite frankly, the easiest way to get breeders to clam up and refuse to participate in genetic research studies is to go public naming names and asking for pedigrees. Why not instead harness your passion and direct it toward encouraging your fellow breeders to share DNA samples and pedigrees with the researchers at the University of Georgia Vet School where all information received will be treated with the utmost confidence. These folks are the scientific geniuses who NEED our cooperation as breeders in order to someday unlock the genetic mysteries behind the diseases we are faced with. About issues and/or disputes with breeders or buyers, this is not the place to air that laundry. Take it private and keep it private.
> 
> ...


Mary, I know that you and some other wonderful breeders have spent time to educate yourselves. You have all tried to take a responsible approach. When I say off the radar screen, I am also speaking of pet owners and vets. Why do so few vets have any real clue what this is? Why do most dogs get diagnosed when they are close to death? Why don't many vets know about the newest treatment regiemes? Why is there no central body of knowledge people can consult? This is why dogs are dying. No education. It has been an inivisible disease. Vets don't talk about it, breeders don't talk about it. People like me are left to try to get information on our own. I have tried to be completely open about what has happened to me and my dog. I do this to try to help others. I don't have any ulterior motives. But I can share with you that I was contacted on FB by a very well known breeder. She was told to contact me to listen to my story. The only thing she was interested in was if she could see my dogs pedigree. When I declined to share it, she never spoke to me again. My dogs pedigree and her brain are at UGA, thank you. I can't help but think the only thing she is interested in, is protecting her line and her reputation. Sad.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Pam, as you well know one of the big unfortunates in treating non-human living beings is that they cannot communicate and tell us how they feel. Time seems to be of essence in successfully treating GME yet GME is one of those diseases that presents in so many ways that it is most often misdiagnosed. Some dogs seize and are diagnosed with idiopathic epilepsy. Some have a head tilt and start walking in circles and are diagnosed with an inner ear infection. Some have weakness in the hind leg or legs and are diagnosed with a disc problem. The dog that was healthy in October is dead in January, the owner is devastated and emotionally, physically and financially drained and chooses not to do a necropsy, sadly shutting the door to a definitive cause of death. You are the rare person who left no stone unturned. I admire your strength and perseverance more than I could ever say.

I agree that there is limited information to be found. That's true for owners, breeders and vets. What came first ... the chicken or the egg? More research is being done now than ever in the past (except in the case of the Pug Dog breed where research has been ongoing for years). Is there more GME now or is it that we (owners, breeders and vets) have access to better diagnostic tests like MRIs that we did not have in the past? As for treatment, most vets are hesitant to go out on a limb and try something out of the norm. Dr. Sisson has gone beyond the "traditional" treatments BUT he works in a hospital, not a research setting. He has had success in putting GME dogs into remission but because he's not published in any peer reviewed journals many in the veterinary world are not comfortable signing on to his method of treatment. When it comes to treatment, I think of GME like I think of AIDS. Where would we be today if it weren't for the drug cocktails that are used for treating AIDS? But were the drug cocktails accepted overnight? No, it took years of brave doctors and brave patients willing to try anything to save their own life or the life of a patient.

I can't begin to guess what the motivation was behind someone asking you for Lola's pedigree. All I know is that GME scares the crap out of me. And so does finger pointing because that behavior can shut the door to honesty and progress and then we're all screwed.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Pam, as you well know one of the big unfortunates in treating non-human living beings is that they cannot communicate and tell us how they feel. Time seems to be of essence in successfully treating GME yet GME is one of those diseases that presents in so many ways that it is most often misdiagnosed. Some dogs seize and are diagnosed with idiopathic epilepsy. Some have a head tilt and start walking in circles and are diagnosed with an inner ear infection. Some have weakness in the hind leg or legs and are diagnosed with a disc problem. The dog that was healthy in October is dead in January, the owner is devastated and emotionally, physically and financially drained and chooses not to do a necropsy, sadly shutting the door to a definitive cause of death. You are the rare person who left no stone unturned. I admire your strength and perseverance more than I could ever say.
> 
> I agree that there is limited information to be found. That's true for owners, breeders and vets. What came first ... the chicken or the egg? More research is being done now than ever in the past (except in the case of the Pug Dog breed where research has been ongoing for years). Is there more GME now or is it that we (owners, breeders and vets) have access to better diagnostic tests like MRIs that we did not have in the past? As for treatment, most vets are hesitant to go out on a limb and try something out of the norm. Dr. Sisson has gone beyond the "traditional" treatments BUT he works in a hospital, not a research setting. He has had success in putting GME dogs into remission but because he's not published in any peer reviewed journals many in the veterinary world are not comfortable signing on to his method of treatment. When it comes to treatment, I think of GME like I think of AIDS. Where would we be today if it weren't for the drug cocktails that are used for treating AIDS? But were the drug cocktails accepted overnight? No, it took years of brave doctors and brave patients willing to try anything to save their own life or the life of a patient.
> 
> I can't begin to guess what the motivation was behind someone asking you for Lola's pedigree. All I know is that GME scares the crap out of me. And so does finger pointing because that behavior can shut the door to honesty and progress and then we're all screwed.


 
Mary, I was so hoping you would pop in on here on this topic. I was thinking the same thing, that this is like AIDS, not the disease itself, but how it cropped up, and massive reasearch was done, to get to the route within a humans body effected, while also studinging healthy humans. I know very little about this disease, and quite honestly just heard about it, when we started loosing precious babies from it. 

I too, and so deeply sorry for anyone and their fluffs who had to go through this. 

I just read, very quickly, that this can not be targeted to one area, part of the article stated 
*Etiology: GME has been reported around the world and can affect most breeds and ages of dogs; however, middle aged, small breed dogs such as terriers and poodles are more susceptible (Thomas, 1998). GME accounts for up to 25% of all canine CNS disorders reported in the United States (Cuddon, 1984). No specific etiological agent has been described for this disease.*

There are so many more people, of course that know so much more about this disease, than myself, but it does seem that it has been reported around the world. So I do agree with Mary's post 100%, as far as banding together, just like the disease AIDS to conduct extensive research.

To target one area, we may be doing the research a disservice. It is scarey, as it appears it can pop up at anytime, without any prior knowledge. 

I would LOVE to know the origination of this disease, as far as when it was first discovered, just like AIDS. 

Of course, my heart breaks for situations that have been shared on this thread. So tradgic and so sudden amd I am so deeply sorry.

As I said, I know very little about this disease, but thank God for the research being done, and may it come up with the answers, solutions and prevention.

So, I just think we strongly should support the research, as sadly it doesn't appear to be stemming from one area.

I again, and so deeply deeply sorry, for all those who have been effected and so very grateful, for Mary's input, as I feel it is very wise, and move us in the right direction.

As well as Pam's, input and incredible guidance, to continue to push for research. Bless you Pam.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

jambetmaltese said:


> edelweiss said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone kindly explain to me why just this particular pedigree/lines is (are) being singled out for scrutiny since we have lost numerous other dogs to GME this year? I don't understand. Will the other pedigrees be listed as well.
> ...


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

This is a disease that we truly don't know enough about. How can we point fingers at breeders when we haven't even determined if GME/NME is hereditary?

We don't know what causes it. There are many theories. Some blame it on vaccinations, some on breeders, some to a combination of both. The truth is -- we don't know.

It seems to have become more prevelent recently -- but that may simply be because we personally know many of the fluffs that have recently passed. And because we have the internet to keep in touch with forums like SM and friends on FB.

This is being seen in Maltese bred by what is considered to be a reputable breeder as well as in fluffs bred by BYBs and Puppymills. I seriously doubt that you could find ancestors in common in even a 10-12 generation pedigree, so you can't simply chalk this up to heredity from improper breeding programs.

That is why education of owners and vets as well as research is truly important. As I've mentioned in other threads, I first became aware of Pug Dog Encephelitous in the early 80s as my Vet (at that time) and his wife were Pug breeders and he was involved with the research that was being done by Cornell. And yet, 30 years later, they've still not found a marker, a cause, a treatment or a cure. A big reason this is because the disease seems to strike randomly.

We know that many diseases are hereditary, but we don't know that GME/NME is one of them. We need to participate in the research and not point fingers at breeders as they have no more of a clue to the cause than we do.

The lifestyle of the fluffs varies to an extreme. Some are pampered pets that are provided with the best food available and fantastic vet care. Some are from puppymills and get the cheapest food available and no vet care. Some are somewhere in the middle. 

This truly appears to be random as there doesn't appear to be much commonability in which fluffs are afflicted.

What terrifies me is that THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ANY OF OUR BELOVED FLUFFS.

So we need to continue to donate to research and also contribute the DNA sample. And we need to help breeders want to find an answer too.

Just MHO.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Lacie's Mom said:


> This is a disease that we truly don't know enough about. How can we point fingers at breeders when we haven't even determined if GME/NME is hereditary?
> 
> We don't know what causes it. There are many theories. Some blame it on vaccinations, some on breeders, some to a combination of both. The truth is -- we don't know.
> 
> ...


Lynn very well said. And not to be unkind to anyone, trust me I feel your heartache, and I share it with you. Lynn, do you think, if there is not one already, a discussion about this disease, under a new thread name. There is valuable information on this thread, and this thread of course, can continue on the subject matter originally intended, but all the other valuable information may get lost, and stritcly applied to only the subject matter.

Please anyone directly effected by this specific situation, please do not take offense, trust me, more than anything, my heart is with you.


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## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

Lacie's Mom said:


> This is a disease that we truly don't know enough about. How can we point fingers at breeders when we haven't even determined if GME/NME is hereditary?
> 
> We don't know what causes it. There are many theories. Some blame it on vaccinations, some on breeders, some to a combination of both. The truth is -- we don't know.
> 
> ...




:goodpost:


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

I just pray for the best. GME is scary. I am very sorry for the ones lost to it  I am sorry for the ones who got it. I am sorry that more fluffs could get it. I pray for a cure :grouphug:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Sorry I wasn't on SM yesterday.
I guess what I am afraid of here is that we naturally look for someone to blame when bad things happen, and I find it unfair to isolate a particular breeder since this horrific disease is not easily diagnosed, at least early on, and w/no known genetic marker(s). OK, it is diagnosed w/MRI's and such but a vet would normally reach for that test after others have been ruled out---therefore taking longer to identify.
It is easy to "go on a witch-hunt" and I just want us to be careful here w/this particular breeder, or w/any OTHER breeder who might show up repeatedly in our pedigrees. We are not research scientist and I think in all fairness we should leave that work to those who have the expertise to do so. JMHO
I know we all suffer when one of our babies is diagnosed w/anything awful--we are, after all, a tight knit family of sorts. We know the pain of losing our babies and our heart reaches out. We also know that without the proper scientific research and finding a genetic marker we could all be facing down this terrible disease. So I applaud Pam, Lynn, Sammie, Suzan and all of you who are champions for the fight against GME!


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I think we would less blame the breeder if the breeder is cooperating and being honest. I, certainly would like to know if he had some health problems in his breeding program. At the price those dogs are sold and the brainwashing we go through about BYB (and how it is more likely to get a sick dog from them), I think we are entitled to know. That way we can make our own choice. 



> What terrifies me is that THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ANY OF OUR BELOVED FLUFFS.


Me too. It seems to me that after 30 years of research for the Pugs, if it were genetic, they would have found a marker by now. I truly believe that the dog foods and the overvaccinations and the chemicals we put on our dogs are a lot to blame on the illnesses some of our dogs come down with now.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Janine, progress is being made with Pug Dogs. They do have a test now that will tell them the likelihood of their dogs developing and thus producing PDE. See my thread from last January at http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-maltese-health-behavior/111438-discoveries-winter-2011-akc-canine-health-foundation.html.

I agree that breeders need to be honest about health problems but if you stay away from any breeder who has produced even one dog that succumbed to a genetic disease you'd have very few breeders to buy from (and I'm talking about all breeds, not just Maltese).


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I agree with Mary, progress is being made with Pug Dog Encephalitis. The more normal and affected Maltese submissions we get, the more we can do with the research.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

jmm said:


> I agree with Mary, progress is being made with Pug Dog Encephalitis. The more normal and affected Maltese submissions we get, the more we can do with the research.


 Which brings us back to this:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-...-study-please-read-if-you-received-swabs.html


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## maltemom09 (Jan 27, 2010)

jambetmaltese said:


> edelweiss said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone kindly explain to me why just this particular pedigree/lines is (are) being singled out for scrutiny since we have lost numerous other dogs to GME this year? I don't understand. Will the other pedigrees be listed as well.
> ...


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I know that Sammy did not start this thread to "bash" this particular breeders. I'm going so that it doesn't continue any type of breeder bashing as I believe that the point was more about GME.


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