# Raw meat diets



## jessica-01

having just read the the helpful list on here of foods to avaoid feeding, I have to adddress the statement that dogs should avoid raw meat. This is a complete and utter untrue myth. 

In fact, when meat is cooked its molecular structure is altered and, in particular, all the health giving enzymes are destroyed. Then there are the chemicals. Chemicals are used in most processed, cooked dog foods to preserve it. Chemicals to alter the smell. Chemicals to change the colour. Chemicals to bind it so that it looks like chunks of meat or little dried shapes. And then there’s the added fats in processed food. These are usually of poor quality and could be recycled from deep fryers in restaurants, tallow that rises from rendering plants, rancid fat so on and so forth. Many commercial dog foods have fat sprayed on them as a way of making them palatable to dogs. Cooked meat is actually, therefore, very bad for dogs. There is a lot of scientific research on this. 

Conversely, there is considerable evidence to show that a natural, raw food diet results in numerous benefits including a glossy coat, healthy skin, lean muscle tone, robust immune system, sweet smelling breath, healthy teeth and gums, increased energy, better digestion, strong heart and more energy and vitality. It is also probably worth mentioning that raw meat is usually extremely fresh – fresher than much of the meat you will find in your local supermarket. (The same is true of the vegetables added to the food I feed, too). Dogs eating a raw food diet can be expected to live longer and to suffer less illness and disease. 

Regarding the statement that raw meat can contain bacteria such as Salmonella, it is actually 100% safe for dogs to eat raw meat. Dogs and their wolf ancestors have been eating raw food – primarily meat - for over a million years. After all, dogs don’t cook in the wild. This is the diet that they not only prefer, but which they are biologically designed to eat. Their teeth and digestive systems, in particular, are designed for it. Whereas a human intestine goes on for yards and yards, (up to 28 feet), a dog’s intestine is never more than two and half times its length. Therefore dogs simply can’t digest all sorts of things that humans can, including grain (of which there is a lot in processed, cooked dog food). And whereas human saliva contains lots of enzymes that aid digestion, canine saliva doesn’t. Instead dogs have the short digestive tracts described above and very strong stomach acids. When food is cooked it alters its chemical structure, destroying much of its nutritional value and killing enzymes that dogs need to digest. A processed food diet – because it is cooked – forces the pancreas to work harder and to draw other enzymes from the blood stream. This can leave a dog physically vulnerable because the enzymes in the blood are supposed to be protecting the body, not aiding digestion. A number of medical studies show that the pancreas enlarges on a diet of processed food. An enlarged organ means excessive function. Excessive function can lead to degeneration. It is a similar story when it comes to amino acids. Cooking at high temperatures alters the arrangement of these acids making half of them unusable by the canine body. The best way to describe the effect of cooking food for dogs is this: In the wild a dog will digest its food in 4 or 5 hours. Processed food, on the other hand, can take 8 to 15 hours to break down, clear the stomach and pass through the small intestine. Also, dogs’ teeth were made for ripping and tearing, not for chewing. That’s why dogs gulp much of their food. They don’t have the molars to break it down mechanically – instead all the serious digestive action takes place in their small intestine. Paleontologists estimate that a period of approximately 100,000 years is required before evolutionary changes occur within a whole species. The most accepted theories estimate that dogs began their association with humans, (at which time they began to eat processes, cooked food), between 10,000 and 15,000 years ago. They haven’t, therefore, had time to adapt to eating cooked food let alone the other ingredients in processed food. Additionally, dogs have the most amazing immune system. Consider what they sniff, lick and eat during the course of a typical walk in a park! The bacteria found on fresh meat poses no threats to them whatsoever. Of course, dogs will happily eat unrefrigerated meat that is several weeks old without any ill effects. They’ll bury it and dig it up, too! (However, for safety’s sake, the vendor I buy my raw food from believes we should err well within the recommended rules for human consumption.) Humans also have a high tolerance to bacteria. There is, after all, likely to be more bacteria on the handle of a shopping trolley than on a piece of fresh chicken. Of course, this doesn’t mean one shouldn’t be careful. If you handle raw meat or bones, (although with the raw food meals I buy I don’t actually have to), it is sensible to wash your hands and anything else they have come into contact with. 

In response to the statement that bones should not be fed, it is actually the case that bones are important for two reasons. Firstly, they provide vital nutrients including calcium, complex (good) fats and vitamins. Secondly, the actual chewing of the bones is what keeps a dog’s teeth and gums healthy. Chewing and gnawing are also, believe it or not, excellent exercise and help a dog to stay fit. That’s why the raw food I feed daily contains finely ground up bone. Thanks to decades of misinformation, (mainly by the dog food industry), there is a perception that a dog’s digestive system is too sensitive to deal with raw bones. This is not true. In the same way that it is perfectly safe for a boa constrictor to swallow its prey whole, it is perfectly safe for dogs to chew and swallow bones. They have been doing it for over a million years, after all. The erroneous - and generally untraceable - stories from dog owners who claim that their dogs have had problems with bones with choking and obstructions miss the real point: Dogs are no different from humans. Very, very rarely something will go down the wrong way or be too much for the digestive system. It hardly ever happens and when it does it could be caused by anything including, of course, dried dog food. In short, raw bones are the natural thing for dogs to eat. It is what they eat in the wild.

I am so sorry to be so longwinded, and detailed. I passionately believe it is important that we all have the full facts before us in order that an informed decision can be made regarding how best to care for our fluff-balls. Food is so very, very important. A growing number of vets and nutritionists believe that many, if not most, of the medical conditions that dogs are being treated for nowadays are a direct result of their diet. Unfortunately most nutritional elements of vets’ training courses are sponsored for by processed food manufacturers, which companies continue to pay practicing vets’ commission for every tin or bag of their food sold. It therefore takes some persistent research to get to the true facts!


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## vjw

Please know that there are many dangers of infections to both you and your dogs with feeding raw!

Further, to my knowledge, there is no scientific evidence that raw is healthier.


From the Canadian Veterinary Journal:

An ethicist's commentary on the ?Raw Diet?


From the American Animal Hospital Association:

Raw Food Diets


From a veterinary nutritionist:

PetDiets


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## silverhaven

I had recently been considering a Raw diet, or part there of, but after giving Lola a raw bone and the worry of both her and our contamination, I just don't feel comfortable with it, so I am now home-cooking and she is one happy girl. I just don't see how you can really avoid contamination. When I cook with chicken, I bleach everything, having raw chicken bones even in a fairly confined area will still contaminate her and her surroundings, I doubt I could clean efficiently and safely enough.


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## iheartbisou

okay I admit, I'm really confused by all the information out there about raw diets. 

Is this same as saying that you shouldn't eat carpaccio because it's raw? I love carpaccio but not just from anywhere- it has to be nicely made/prepared and using good beef etc. And I think people who won't eat a good carpaccio may be missing one of the nicer things in life. lol! 

I read in an article about the Stella/Chewy's company having a food safety method (or something) that they patented that killed bacteria without cooking the food. So does this make it safer to feed to your dog?


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## Nikki's Mom

I do not feed raw, so I have no first hand experience. However, I have my opinions. 

A few questions to think about: 

What about anecdotal evidence from thousands of people who have fed their dogs raw food for years without one health problem? 

Does their experience mean nothing? 

Do we just discard anecdotal evidence and assume all of them are lying, and assume all the others are telling the truth? 

Who benefits from public endorsement or condemnation of raw food? If one reads their articles in journals, they are vague. They say, it "may" hurt the animals. Well, if you feed them Science Diet it may hurt them, too. They say that it is a "fad." Hmm. What about the Dog sledders in Alaska who feed their dogs on a diet of raw fish and have done so for years?

There are no guarantees in life. We can get e-coli from raw spinach or lettuce at any given time. Should we all then cook our spinach and lettuce - because life is a crapshoot?

Or do we weigh the postives of eating raw spinach and lettuce against the chance we will get sick? 

Driving on the highway can be dangerous. Do we all stay home because there is a chance we might get into an accident?

I don't intend to feed my dogs raw any time soon. However, if one chooses to feed their dogs raw meat, then that is their business. Most who do this have done their homework. There is no need to scare them.


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## princessre

iheartbisou said:


> Is this same as saying that you shouldn't eat carpaccio because it's raw? I love carpaccio but not just from anywhere- it has to be nicely made/prepared and using good beef etc. And I think people who won't eat a good carpaccio may be missing one of the nicer things in life. lol!
> 
> I read in an article about the Stella/Chewy's company having a food safety method (or something) that they patented that killed bacteria without cooking the food. So does this make it safer to feed to your dog?


Haha, Andrea. I totally agree. What is life without carpaccio, beef tartare, eggs hollandaise, shabu shabu with raw egg??? Many cultures have survived on these items.....I wouldn't just eat these things at any restaurant, like you said.....

At the same time, I am so scared to feed raw to my babies because I respect my vet, and she always raises an eyebrow when the subject of raw comes up. She hates S&C...even though as you mentioned, they do post the lab results of every batch online. 

Last time I mentioned that I sometimes use S&C as a topper on home-cooked food, she asked me to check out another food as a topper called Freshpet Freshpet - Natural, fresh refrigerated pet food for healthy dogs and cats She said all these vets are now way into how great this food is and how impeccably clean and pristine the manufacturer is. I haven't tried it, but I will soon...Freshdirect even delivers this food!


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## iheartbisou

I bought S&C when I was in San Francisco a few weeks ago, as a first time buy. But today (before I started reading about raw foods), I gave it to Bisou- crumbled on her dinner and she ate it like it was doggie crack. But now I'm concerned about giving her anymore especially if Vets seem to be concerned as well. I don't want to contaminate her or us. I'll look for Freshpet here.

ummm hollandaise is bad??!?!?! Other than the fat in it?? whoa! lol.


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## Maltsnme

*Raw feeding just needs smarts about it*

I fed a raw diet to my Labradors for years, about 7. I had one dog that was allergic to every protein source out there, except chicken and fish. She started having allergy issues again (around year 6 1/2)on the raw chicken, so switched fo fish. It was difficult to find enough to sustain large dogs on a weekly basis and, it was extremely expensive. this was all before the prepackaged stuff...and I could control what I put in, because the prepackaged stuff all has surgar in its ingredients (fruits/veggies), which is a big no-no for dogs w/allergies. So, I gave it up. 

I did alot of research on it before I chose to go that route. I work for a vet, so had my boss telling me, I was going to kill my dogs.  They were going to get salmonella. I challenged him and said, find me ONE true case or ONE article that substantiates or supports this statement and I'll consider it. He couldn't. Dogs have been eating spoiled food for as long as they have been around, they are made to eat spoiled food. (dogs that eat dog food and one brand only, have had senstive stomachs created, it is not natural for them to be this way) 

My dogs did go through a "cleansing" period of diarrhea for about 2 weeks. I remember it well and it was extremely difficult. I stop diarrhea at work for people, not create it  Because I remember that so well, I chose to not go that route with my Maltese.. toooo scary. And, while I fed my Labradors, chicken backs daily and whole raw fish, I worry about these little tiny dogs eating raw bones (specific ones..you MUST do research on this, if you are going to feed it OR go to a holistic vet that will support you as you go through the change over) You don't have to feed the raw bone but you do have to then supplement so they get the benefits that raw bones supply. I didn't want to go that route either. 

I knew one dog that got a bone stuck. she was a large breed dog and a gulper. Dogs naturally will gulp down their food and then gag it back up to finish rechewing it. this is natural, though sorta hard to watch LOL. Never were sure, why it happened. neither were the holistic vets, it was a "fluke" is what they said. 

So, my point is... everyone has opinions and everyone is entitled...but if you have some negative opinions on a subject, check in with yourself on why you do, if you have no experience with it... sometimes, just fear of the unknown makes us have opinions of something because that gives our psychy a reason to be valid in its fear. If you are interested in raw, go educate yourself first. You CAN do damage to your dog (feeding broccoli every day can cause hypothyroidism) so you must know the ins and outs. Is it healthy to feed raw, yes it can be. Am I going to feed it to my Maltese, I think about it, but I'm afraid to and the few times I have tried it, mine won't eat it. Realty, if I'd get them to eat it and have some guidance from a holistic vet (closest is 3hrs away, which I've done before and it isn't ideal when you get into problems, because oftentimes, things just don't get accomplished as they should with a vet that is closer, for a variety of reasons) I would feed it. I do believe in it.

Two good books: best one and simplest to read: Kymythy Schultz: The Ultimate Diet and Ian Billinhursts, "Feed Your Dog A Bone" (or something close to that, been a long time). Be cautious of companies or people that distrube raw, who "educate" you. If they have been doing it for years, then ok...but someone that has just decided to sell it for a franchise, etc.. they are giving you lines from the company. They have no real experience/education and when and if you get into trouble there is no way, they will/can help you out of it. (my biggest pet peeve in the world)


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## Maltsnme

*Vets and Nutrition*

Oh and one other thing.. vets (who do not specialize) don't have experience in two departments: behavior and nutrition. 

Vets are educated by Hill's, not even for an entire semester. Hill's recommends they feed their presciption diets, so they do. If a vet is giving you advice on not feeding raw, make sure that vet is not doing what I said in my last post, giving you advice w/lack of education in the subject and from a place of fear. If they are saying "don't" ask them why not and ask them to give you good solid reasons for their recommendations. Vague comments such as "because it is dangerous" is not good enough. WHY is it dangerous? Give me some background on it. 

Just an added thought...


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## aprilb

The reason we cook meat and fish is not only to kill harmful bacteria like e. coli and salmonella, but to kill parasites. Raw fish carry a type of roundworm and tapeworm. I have heard of people becoming ill eating Sushi and contracting harmful parasites. The beef tapeworm can be passed to humans and dogs. Other harmful parasities contained in raw meat are toxoplasmosis, and the trichinella worm. Toxoplasmosis will kill your dog. Just because we buy meat at the grocery store does not mean it is free of parasites. Freezing may kill some parasites, but not always. If you eat raw or feed raw meat to your dog, you are playing Russian Roulette. This is not a risk I am willing to take. :thumbsup:


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## Nikki's Mom

Before we assume the validity of any reports/tests we must ask:

Who benefits from the findings?

Who is funding the testing?

What was the test environment like?

What were the ages of the dogs/cats?

What were they eating before they were fed raw?

What was their health like?

How good was their immune system?

What type of raw meat were they fed?

What was the source of the meat?

It would be wonderful if someone could do a clinical test on animals who haven eaten raw or home-cooked food since puppyhood and are now around 5 years old.

But we have to ask ourselves:

Who would fund that test?

Who would benefit from that test?

Yes, we can get parasites/diseases from raw (and cooked) foods, sushi, carpaccio, steak tartare, etc. However, if we eat truly healthy foods, and are keeping our immune system in good shape, by eliminating environmental toxins, we are much less likely to get sick.

Since we have introduced over-vaccinating, commercial pet food and pharmaceuticals to our pets, please show me the double blind, unbiased test results that indicate our pets our healthier today then they were 50 years ago. Yes, the may live longer, but they are overwhelmed with chronic conditions, like allergies, IBD, Colitis, Pancreatitis, Diabetes, Asthma, Cancer, Heart Disease, etc. Similar to us humans. We all live longer, but we all seem to be a little bit sicker and some of us have to take pharmaceuticals on a regular basis to suppress symptoms. 

Show me the evidence that what we have been doing all these years to "help ourselves and our pets" - introducing junky food, and drugs, has really helped us and our dogs. 

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Okay, rant over. Carry on. Nothing to see here.


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## wooflife

I have started feeding raw to my 3 dogs and cat. For those of you who don't know I have a Havanese who is prone to pancreatitis, a Brussels Griffon, and a 4.5 lb Maltese.

I am very careful about the amount of the fat in the formulas I choose so as keep the pancreatitus at bay however all of my animals are currently thriving on a raw diet. 

I think that Susan is correct one must truly look at all the information available and question both sides thoroughly before making a decision. Feeding raw is not for everyone or every dog but it can have wonderful effects for those willing to try it.


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## jmm

I've seen a few cases of salmonella and a couple of e.coli. The e.coli was from bad batches of kibble. So yes, dogs can contract such food-borne illness...it is up to you to decide your dog's risk level. Most healthy dogs will probably do fine. Dogs with some health concerns probably aren't worth the risk. I don't do any raw in my home because I have a dog extremely prone to infection. Not a chance I'm willing to take. 
With our furry faced dogs, you should consider the people in your home as well. If you have anyone at risk for infections, at the very least, be washing the face (and paws if used to eat) after meals is. 
I am a firm believer there is no one perfect diet for every dog. We should treat each dog as an individual and find the best possible diet for that dog.


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## pammy4501

I have been feeding my dogs a commercially prepared raw diet. It is deyhdrated. I think that if you are preparing your own raw diet, you must be extreme selective about the meat you choose. Yes, animals in the wild eat raw. The meat they are eating was not caged, fed an unhealthful diet and slaughtered in horrible dirty conditions. There's a reason they tell people not to eat a rare hamburger!! 
Since I switched to the food I am currently using, my dog Lola was 12lbs due to prednisone (which she takes for a medical condition that she has). She was rather miserable at that weight. On this diet, she is currently 8.8 (much closer to her normal weight of 6.2) She is running again, can play with the other dogs. All of my dogs are happy, health, have no tear stains and have gorgeous coats.
And Suzan is right. If you just read studies it will drive you crazy. I kept doing that and couldn't ever decide what the heck was the right thing to feed! But I finally decided to try this after listening to members here who were having very nice results with the raw diets. So glad I made that leap of faith!!


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## Maltsnme

jmm said:


> I've seen a few cases of salmonella and a couple of e.coli. The e.coli was from bad batches of kibble. So yes, dogs can contract such food-borne illness...it is up to you to decide your dog's risk level. Most healthy dogs will probably do fine. Dogs with some health concerns probably aren't worth the risk. I don't do any raw in my home because I have a dog extremely prone to infection. Not a chance I'm willing to take.
> With our furry faced dogs, you should consider the people in your home as well. If you have anyone at risk for infections, at the very least, be washing the face (and paws if used to eat) after meals is.
> I am a firm believer there is no one perfect diet for every dog. We should treat each dog as an individual and find the best possible diet for that dog.


I've had vets tell me this, but it was not truly a case of documented salmonella, just suspect and was not due to eating raw. So are you saying that you have seen documented (confirmed w/lab results) proof of a dog contracting salmonella from eating a raw diet? I'm not disputing you, just asking if that is what you are saying.

Agreed, re: your statements that contribute to: know your dogs, know your situation and know what is right for you both.


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## Maltsnme

Nikki's Mom said:


> Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


I SOOOO stole this and put it on my FB status LOL. GOOD one Suzan (hopefully THIS one will go through, three time a charm, stupid computers!)


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## vjw

SilkamMaltese said:


> Oh and one other thing.. vets (who do not specialize) don't have experience in two departments: behavior and nutrition.
> 
> Vets are educated by Hill's, not even for an entire semester. Hill's recommends they feed their presciption diets, so they do. If a vet is giving you advice on not feeding raw, make sure that vet is not doing what I said in my last post, giving you advice w/lack of education in the subject and from a place of fear. If they are saying "don't" ask them why not and ask them to give you good solid reasons for their recommendations. Vague comments such as "because it is dangerous" is not good enough. WHY is it dangerous? Give me some background on it.
> 
> Just an added thought...


 


Today's veterinary graduates have at least one semester of nutrition. I doubt Hill's wrote their textbook. I've had a semester long human nutrition course in college and it was the hardest class I had.

I'll agree that Hills and Vet. schools collaborate on some of their research and I think that's a good thing. Vet. schools would never have the money to do the indepth studies they do without financial support from dog food companies. Neither would holistic vets. have money for their educational programs if they weren't supported by supplement companies.:thumbsup:

Vets. get their nutrition information from numerous credible sources:

Controlled studies at veterinary schools which have specialized veterinary canine and feline nutrition programs. Programs like Ohio State, UC Davis

Then there's other veterinary schools who do studies for other species in which they indirectly learn about canine and feline nutrition. Cornell, Rutgers, Penn State, Kansas State, Viriginia Tech, . . . . .

The studies are submitted to the National Research Council of the US National Academy of Sciences and are combined to be a sources for nutrient recommendations for dogs and cats.

There's canine nutrition studies being done continuously at dog food companies. I know that Hills, Purina, and Royal Canin have board certified veterinary nutritionists on their staff. There may be other companies as well.

Vets can get nutrition information from many, many professional journals which report studies on canine nutrition.

There's many, many professional organizations that support and educate about canine nutrition : the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Society of Clinical Nutrition, the Association of American Feed Control Officials, the Pet Food Institute, FDA, USDA, . . . . . .


THEN THERE'S THE RESEARCH PERFORMED *IN OTHER COUNTRIES* BY VET SCHOOLS, DOG FOOD COMPANIES, ETC.


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## wooflife

SilkamMaltese said:


> I've had vets tell me this, but it was not truly a case of documented salmonella, just suspect and was not due to eating raw. So are you saying that you have seen documented (confirmed w/lab results) proof of a dog contracting salmonella from eating a raw diet? I'm not disputing you, just asking if that is what you are saying.


I would like to know this as well. Not to dispute it but because I sell raw food in my store and get the questions about salmonella and e.coli. To date I do not know of any documented cases of salmonella or e.coli. If there are cases I would like to be able to address customers concerns appropriately.


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## Maltsnme

vjw said:


> Today's veterinary graduates have at least one semester of nutrition. I doubt Hill's wrote their textbook. I've had a semester long human nutrition course in college and it was the hardest class I had.
> 
> I'll agree that Hills and Vet. schools collaborate on some of their research and I think that's a good thing. Vet. schools would never have the money to do the indepth studies they do without financial support from dog food companies. Neither would holistic vets. have money for their educational programs if they weren't supported by supplement companies.:thumbsup:
> 
> Vets. get their nutrition information from numerous credible sources:
> 
> Controlled studies at veterinary schools which have specialized veterinary canine and feline nutrition programs. Programs like Ohio State, UC Davis
> 
> Then there's other veterinary schools who do studies for other species in which they indirectly learn about canine and feline nutrition. Cornell, Rutgers, Penn State, Kansas State, Viriginia Tech, . . . . .
> 
> The studies are submitted to the National Research Council of the US National Academy of Sciences and are combined to be a sources for nutrient recommendations for dogs and cats.
> 
> There's canine nutrition studies being done continuously at dog food companies. I know that Hills, Purina, and Royal Canin have board certified veterinary nutritionists on their staff. There may be other companies as well.
> 
> Vets can get nutrition information from many, many professional journals which report studies on canine nutrition.
> 
> There's many, many professional organizations that support and educate about canine nutrition : the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Society of Clinical Nutrition, the Association of American Feed Control Officials, the Pet Food Institute, FDA, USDA, . . . . . .
> 
> 
> THEN THERE'S THE RESEARCH PERFORMED *IN OTHER COUNTRIES* BY VET SCHOOLS, DOG FOOD COMPANIES, ETC.


Well, I did say "unless specialized" but maybe I should have added in, in my experience (which is vast, but of course, it is my experience). Yes, there are really good sources, and these are GREAT! but many vets don't "further educate" because they have Hill's. (sad but true) 

I've worked for/with a lot of vets and most of them are satisified to give out Hill's because it a) does the job they need it to and b) gives them time to focus on the medical part of the problem. 

I'm sure there are many that know more about diets but for the most part, I don't think they bother with it, because honestly they believe what they were taught (BTW, I don't feed nor recommend Hill's) 

And maybe that is just in the past and I sure hope you are right, though!!! and that times are changing!!! This is really good information. thanks for posting it!


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## Nikki's Mom

This is what my highly respected vet told me. This is also what my doctor told me. Because I asked: 

The problem is that science of nutrition is constantly changing and once vets/doctors get out of school, they have little time to study or pore over reports, journals, clinical trials, etc. They just have enough time to listen to a sales rep or read a short descriptive handout, and go on the internet once in a while. 

And the other thing that the doctor told me is that he is one doctor who reads a lot of stuff, and he said that many of the published studies in respected journals have great information, but simply come to wrong conclusions contrary to what the actual study indicates. (I have read this type of thing myself - like the latest Vitamin D study. I sent the entire thing to my doctor, and he went ballistic. He said that the conclusions at the end actually contradict the study!) So guess what the doctor/vet who has no spare time reads? Only the conclusions drawn at the end. 

So while clinical trials, testing, studies, and other information out of respected Vet Schools, and Medical Schools may be a good source of information, it is also often inconclusive and really should not be taken as the last word on everything. 

And while many pet food company employees really have the dogs best interests at heart, many more don't give a fig about the dog's health and just want to make their money. 

And while many vets disseminate good, helpful info, I still believe that personal anecdotal evidence MUST be taken into consideration, because the average pet owner has nothing to gain (like money, prestige, career advancement) from telling others about their positive experiences, except perhaps to help other pet owners. 

And I also agree that every dog is an individual. You must take into consideration their environment, lifestyle, overall health, etc. before you decide on a feeding/health plan.


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## aprilb

What about parasites? Those of you that feed raw, how do you know the meat is parasite free? That really scares me.


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## Mindi's mom

pammy4501 said:


> I have been feeding my dogs a commercially prepared raw diet. It is deyhdrated.


 
Ahhh, I typed a long reply then my computer freaked out and I lost it.:smilie_tischkante:
But anyways, the jist of it was...

I use Only Natural Pet EasyRaw Turkey & Sweet Potato. It is dehydrated. Is that the one you use? I had read about it on SM (can't remember who posted it). I & Mindi love it. The itching, scratching, biting, (& bleeding:w00t: finally stopped). It is so much easier than when I was homecooking. And now the bonus is she poops on a schedule 2x a day & I don't have to clean her anal glands! I use to have to do it every week at bath time.:chili: I found something that works for us and we are sticking with it.


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## Maltsnme

*!*



aprilb said:


> What about parasites? Those of you that feed raw, how do you know the meat is parasite free? That really scares me.


Honestly, I don't think that is as big of a concern as the dog food recalls. I mean, seriously... go back and look at the lists upon lists of brand, many good ones. I truly have never ever heard of a legit case of ecoli, salmonella nor parasite infested dog from a raw diet. Could it happen, sure I suppose, but look at the hundreds of animals that came down with kidney failure from premade foods..(and some of the issues in THOSE food were...salmonella!!) and not just once.. those scares keep happening over and over and over again.. just sayin'.. can't let the "what ifs" scare you. You have to research it and find out if indeed the scares are just that, scares or if they are really legitimate issues and then weigh them on a scale, comparing them to your alternatives. 

I'm probably going to go with a homecooked diet. soon as I figure it out.


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## mysugarbears

pammy4501 said:


> I have been feeding my dogs a commercially prepared raw diet. It is deyhdrated. And Suzan is right. If you just read studies it will drive you crazy. I kept doing that and couldn't ever decide what the heck was the right thing to feed! But I finally decided to try this after listening to members here who were having very nice results with the raw diets. So glad I made that leap of faith!!


 
I'm feeding mine the Addiction Dehydrated Raw and there are three that i rotate with, each has a different protien and carb, i use the grain free. My pups are doing great on it and i am so happy i made the change, it's not cheap, but so worth it imo.


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## Mindi's mom

mysugarbears said:


> I'm feeding mine the Addiction Dehydrated Raw and there are three that i rotate with, each has a different protien and carb, i use the grain free. My pups are doing great on it and i am so happy i made the change, it's not cheap, but so worth it imo.


How much are the ones you use? The one we are using is $70 for 8lb bag. 
Do you order online? I tried to look it up. They dont have a place in GA listed on their site.
It looks yummy!


----------



## Maltsnme

mysugarbears said:


> I'm feeding mine the Addiction Dehydrated Raw and there are three that i rotate with, each has a different protien and carb, i use the grain free. My pups are doing great on it and i am so happy i made the change, it's not cheap, but so worth it imo.


Hi there.. I started a post on this food, would you mind giving me your thoughts on it, on the post? tank u!


----------



## mysugarbears

Mindi's mom said:


> How much are the ones you use? The one we are using is $70 for 8lb bag.
> Do you order online? I tried to look it up. They dont have a place in GA listed on their site.
> It looks yummy!


 
I can't remember the prices, but if you pm Crystal (Crystal&Zoey) she can give you the prices. I order the food from her and you also get a 10% discount from her. She is a vendor on here. Pampered Pet Boutique LLC Home Page

She doesn't keep the 8lb bags in stock, but she can order it for you.


----------



## Mindi's mom

mysugarbears said:


> I can't remember the prices, but if you pm Crystal (Crystal&Zoey) she can give you the prices. I order the food from her and you also get a 10% discount from her. She is a vendor on here. Pampered Pet Boutique LLC Home Page
> 
> She doesn't keep the 8lb bags in stock, but she can order it for you.


Thanks!!


----------



## wooflife

Raw fed dogs are typically very healthy dogs so their immune systems can tackle bacteria and parasites before they become a problem. Parasites hate healthy hosts. 

Also, freezing the meat for 72 hours before feeding will kill any possible parasites that might exist. Recommended for pork, rabbit, and venison.

Any raw food that has been through the HPP process will be bacteria and parasite free. Stella & Chewy's as well as Natures Variety go through this process. They both have frozen raw and dehydrated raw products.

I've been doing some research online and it looks as though most bacterial problems in raw fed animals are because of underlying health issues that had not been addressed prior to the introduction to raw food.

I'm still brushing up though and looking for more information.


----------



## Maltsnme

wooflife said:


> Raw fed dogs are typically very healthy dogs so their immune systems can tackle bacteria and parasites before they become a problem. Parasites hate healthy hosts.
> 
> Also, freezing the meat for 72 hours before feeding will kill any possible parasites that might exist. Recommended for pork, rabbit, and venison.
> 
> Any raw food that has been through the HPP process will be bacteria and parasite free. Stella & Chewy's as well as Natures Variety go through this process. They both have frozen raw and dehydrated raw products.
> 
> I've been doing some research online and it looks as though most bacterial problems in raw fed animals are because of underlying health issues that had not been addressed prior to the introduction to raw food.
> 
> I'm still brushing up though and looking for more information.


 
yes, now I remember all of that..it has been about 10 years since I fed raw. thanks for the info!!! gud stuff!


----------



## jmm

SilkamMaltese said:


> I've had vets tell me this, but it was not truly a case of documented salmonella, just suspect and was not due to eating raw. So are you saying that you have seen documented (confirmed w/lab results) proof of a dog contracting salmonella from eating a raw diet? I'm not disputing you, just asking if that is what you are saying.
> 
> Agreed, re: your statements that contribute to: know your dogs, know your situation and know what is right for you both.


The salmonella cases I have seen (or were my clients and got er referrals) were VERY sick and were confirmed by culture. I do not recall any of these being contributed to a specific food source other than one suspected due to a rotten dear the dog got into in the woods. 

The e.coli on the other hand was also confirmed and then was found to be due to a commercial kibble that was contaminated. 

But the point was dogs can and do contact food borne illness, so it is not impossible. This is why I say you evaluate the risk for your dog...and keep in mind that even kibble can be a risk for food borne illness


----------



## pammy4501

Mindi's mom said:


> Ahhh, I typed a long reply then my computer freaked out and I lost it.:smilie_tischkante:
> But anyways, the jist of it was...
> 
> I use *Only Natural Pet EasyRaw Turkey & Sweet Potato*. It is dehydrated. Is that the one you use? I had read about it on SM (can't remember who posted it). I & Mindi love it. The itching, scratching, biting, (& bleeding:w00t: finally stopped). It is so much easier than when I was homecooking. And now the bonus is she poops on a schedule 2x a day & I don't have to clean her anal glands! I use to have to do it every week at bath time.:chili: I found something that works for us and we are sticking with it.


Yes, that is the same one I am using. I love, dogs LOVE it. And you are right, really nice poops!! Very happy on this diet!


----------



## MissMaltese

I have a question about this with regard to Satin Balls. Are you really supposed to feed them raw, ick!?


----------



## Maltsnme

jmm said:


> The salmonella cases I have seen (or were my clients and got er referrals) were VERY sick and were confirmed by culture. I do not recall any of these being contributed to a specific food source other than one suspected due to a rotten dear the dog got into in the woods.
> 
> The e.coli on the other hand was also confirmed and then was found to be due to a commercial kibble that was contaminated.
> 
> But the point was dogs can and do contact food borne illness, so it is not impossible. This is why I say you evaluate the risk for your dog...and keep in mind that even kibble can be a risk for food borne illness


Definitely agree with choosing what is right for your dogs!!! 

Ok, I've just heard it over and over as a scare tactic and have never really gotten any specifically proof of a case of it from a food source, such as feeding a good quality raw diet. Yes, from decaying meat in the woods or even contaminated kibble.. that makes more sense.

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## aprilb

I realize that e.coli and salmonella can be caught from kibble and other foods. Wouldn't the incidence be higher with raw meat? What about worms? No one has addressed this yet. I'm just trying to learn here. Even though there may be benefits to feeding raw, I am wondering if the benefits outweigh the risks.(We pastuerize milk and we should be pastuerizing eggs, in my opinion.) Thoughts?


----------



## Nikki's Mom

This is my experience. I am not telling anyone to to the same. I am not saying that I have the last word on this subject. Everyone has to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions. This is my opinion:

We've eaten raw egg yolks in smoothies for years with not one single problem. I used to drink unpasteurized milk. (I drank it for a long time) I also ate raw milk cheese often. I know a lot of folks and their kids who drink it as well, and have done so for years. We never had an issue with it, and neither have any our friends. It is delicious! (Unfortunately, I had to cut out dairy foods after I tested positive for casein allergy)

IMO, the benefits of ingesting the live enzymes/CLA's in the milk, and the live nutrients in the raw egg yolks, greatly outweigh the risk. 

If a dog or a person's immune system is in good shape, a little bacteria or fungi here and there should not harm them - in most cases. In fact, over time, the immune system should actually be strengthened from exposure to some pathogens. 

Regarding parasites, I've heard that raw fish/pork is the highest risk. But again, my former Japanese co-workers and friends ate sushi every day and none of them had a problem with parasites. I'd be more concerned with the mercury in fish than parasites. I've heard that freezing food for a time will kill the parasites/eggs. I don't know if it is true or not. (I generally don't eat sushi anymore, and I never eat raw meat.) There are sometimes moth eggs/larvae in packaged grains, too. 

The key is finding a good source for your food. It is absolutely vital to find a trustworthy person/farmer/rancher or retail establishment to buy from if one is to eat unpasteurized or raw food, or feed it to their dogs. (Or even for general health purposes if you eat cooked food.) I do not recommend most regular chain supermarkets, or their ground meats, (unless they grind it for you on the spot and you know that they are clean) as most of the meat/fish supermarkets carry come from processing environments that are beyond filthy - even if they are inspected periodically. There are always exceptions, of course, so I'm not saying that they are all bad. I buy a lot of my food from local farmers/ranchers, and I've never had a problem. Not everyone is willing or able to do that, I understand. 

Two websites that provide sources for local produce, meat, dairy, etc.

Eat Wild

Local Harvest / Farmers Markets / Family Farms / CSA / Organic Food


----------



## Maltsnme

Nikki's Mom said:


> This is my experience. I am not telling anyone to to the same. I am not saying that I have the last word on this subject. Everyone has to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions. This is my opinion:
> 
> We've eaten raw egg yolks in smoothies for years with not one single problem. I used to drink unpasteurized milk. (I drank it for a long time) I also ate raw milk cheese often. I know a lot of folks and their kids who drink it as well, and have done so for years. We never had an issue with it, and neither have any our friends. It is delicious! (Unfortunately, I had to cut out dairy foods after I tested positive for casein allergy)
> 
> IMO, the benefits of ingesting the live enzymes/CLA's in the milk, and the live nutrients in the raw egg yolks, greatly outweigh the risk.
> 
> If a dog or a person's immune system is in good shape, a little bacteria or fungi here and there should not harm them - in most cases. In fact, over time, the immune system should actually be strengthened from exposure to some pathogens.
> 
> Regarding parasites, I've heard that raw fish/pork is the highest risk. But again, my former Japanese co-workers and friends ate sushi every day and none of them had a problem with parasites. I'd be more concerned with the mercury in fish than parasites. I've heard that freezing food for a time will kill the parasites/eggs. I don't know if it is true or not. (I generally don't eat sushi anymore, and I never eat raw meat.) There are sometimes moth eggs/larvae in packaged grains, too.
> 
> The key is finding a good source for your food. It is absolutely vital to find a trustworthy person/farmer/rancher or retail establishment to buy from if one is to eat unpasteurized or raw food, or feed it to their dogs. (Or even for general health purposes if you eat cooked food.) I do not recommend most regular chain supermarkets, or their ground meats, (unless they grind it for you on the spot and you know that they are clean) as most of the meat/fish supermarkets carry come from processing environments that are beyond filthy - even if they are inspected periodically. There are always exceptions, of course, so I'm not saying that they are all bad. I buy a lot of my food from local farmers/ranchers, and I've never had a problem. Not everyone is willing or able to do that, I understand.
> 
> Two websites that provide sources for local produce, meat, dairy, etc.
> 
> Eat Wild
> 
> Local Harvest / Farmers Markets / Family Farms / CSA / Organic Food


AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME post Suzan and see you didn't get the last word, I did :HistericalSmiley:


----------



## Nikki's Mom

SilkamMaltese said:


> AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME post Suzan and see you didn't get the last word, I did :HistericalSmiley:


:chili::chili::chili::chili::chili::chili::chili:


----------



## aprilb

Nikki's Mom said:


> :chili::chili::chili::chili::chili::chili::chili:


Thanks for giving me something to "chew" on, Suzan!:HistericalSmiley:


----------



## wooflife

I thought I would post this as it answered many of the questions that came up in the thread about parasites and bacteria. Also discusses why potentially harmful bacteria can affect some pets and not others.

YouTube - Raw Meat Diet for Pets!


----------



## wooflife

aprilb said:


> I realize that e.coli and salmonella can be caught from kibble and other foods. Wouldn't the incidence be higher with raw meat? What about worms? No one has addressed this yet. I'm just trying to learn here. Even though there may be benefits to feeding raw, I am wondering if the benefits outweigh the risks.(We pastuerize milk and we should be pastuerizing eggs, in my opinion.) Thoughts?


Watch the video I posted - most parasites do not live in the meat but in the guts of other animals. We don't feed the guts we feed the meat. The few that can get into muscle meat can be killed by freezing for 3 days. 

The PH of a dogs stomach acid can kill most bacteria they also have a lot of bile that will also kill bacteria so a dog with a healthy stomach and digestive system shouldn't have problems with bacteria.


----------



## puppy lover

Great video wooflife, thanks for posting And thanks to the OP for bringing up the subject!

I fed my cats a raw food diet for many years and they never got parasites.
About 13 years ago I read an article in Tiger Tribe (a holistic cat magazine) that said organic meats were cleaner in regards to pathogens, bacteria, salmonella, parasites, etc. And so I got the courage to do raw.
I never was able to bring myself to give them raw chicken neck bones though!

For now I'm doing a combination of dehydrated raw and homecooked and Olviea seems to be doing well on that. The video did inspire me so I may try the raw again one day.



wooflife said:


> I thought I would post this as it answered many of the questions that came up in the thread about parasites and bacteria. Also discusses why potentially harmful bacteria can affect some pets and not others.
> 
> YouTube - Raw Meat Diet for Pets!


----------



## gopotsgo

This topic seems to come up now and again on SM. "Anecdotal evidence", I have fed raw frozen to my pups for 2 years with never a problem, annual exams and blood work are perfect. My meat sources are organic and, therefore, healthier animals which decreases the chances of parasites and other infections. Regarding more scientific based evidence, I have a Master's in Microbiology and an M.D. With this education I can wade through the misinformation and fears to determine what I believe makes scientific sense. It always amuses me when people report being scared of E. coli infections. Most people don't realize that what they and their animals poop out is chock full of E. coli. Animals who lick themselves, children who scratch themselves, old people with dementia........ thats right people, covered with E. coli. But no worries only a few rare strains can actually cause harm and you have to ingest a certain amount to be in danger. So unless you go around licking everything, you are pretty safe.


----------



## Mindi's mom

gopotsgo said:


> This topic seems to come up now and again on SM. "Anecdotal evidence", I have fed raw frozen to my pups for 2 years with never a problem, annual exams and blood work are perfect. My meat sources are organic and, therefore, healthier animals which decreases the chances of parasites and other infections. Regarding more scientific based evidence, I have a Master's in Microbiology and an M.D. With this education I can wade through the misinformation and fears to determine what I believe makes scientific sense. It always amuses me when people report being scared of E. coli infections. Most people don't realize that what they and their animals poop out is chock full of E. coli. Animals who lick themselves, children who scratch themselves, old people with dementia........ thats right people, covered with E. coli. But no worries only a few rare strains can actually cause harm and you have to ingest a certain amount to be in danger. So unless you go around licking everything, you are pretty safe.


Makes sense to me. 
And I did get a visual of people licking doorknobs and light switches.:HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:


----------



## lovesophie

I haven't read through this thread, as my eyes are beginning to shut down on me, LOL, but I'm a huge fan of raw. My Sophie has been eating raw since she was a puppy, and she has had zero health problems (she turned 3 last October). I did home-cook for her for a while, but I went back to feeding her raw.

Right now, she's on Ziwipeak's venison and fish formula, and she's doing well on it. She has been on Primal's venison, lamb, duck, and quail, as well as Stella & Chewy's lamb. I fed her Paw Naturaw a while ago, but I stopped it because I think it may have caused her to stain. Shame, because I think Paw Naturaw is great quality food.


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## silverhaven

Not sure Lola can eat raw. Firstly she isn't overly fond, I put some in her homecooked food and she pulled it out and left it on the floor.....lol, she looked at me as if to say, "why have you spoiled my dinner?" I gave her a chicken wing last night as I was trying to see if I could give it to her for her calcium intake, but she ate some and then threw it up straight after. So far my trying it isn't working overly well.


----------



## wooflife

silverhaven said:


> Not sure Lola can eat raw. Firstly she isn't overly fond, I put some in her homecooked food and she pulled it out and left it on the floor.....lol, she looked at me as if to say, "why have you spoiled my dinner?" I gave her a chicken wing last night as I was trying to see if I could give it to her for her calcium intake, but she ate some and then threw it up straight after. So far my trying it isn't working overly well.


Assuming your using a good nutritionally balanced home cooked recipe, I would stick with that for a while and add a good probiotic. If you'd really like to try raw again wait 3 to 6 months and try again. Her system just might not be ready for it yet. It's not right for all dogs at all times. My dogs are thriving on it now but weren't ready when they were younger. Every dog is different.


----------



## silverhaven

wooflife said:


> Assuming your using a good nutritionally balanced home cooked recipe, I would stick with that for a while and add a good probiotic. If you'd really like to try raw again wait 3 to 6 months and try again. Her system just might not be ready for it yet. It's not right for all dogs at all times. My dogs are thriving on it now but weren't ready when they were younger. Every dog is different.


Thanks for the advice 
Yes I think I will continue with the homecooked for now, Lola is doing very well on it and loves it. I wanted to get her to try the raw chicken for the bones so that she would get the needed calcium without supplements, but I will continue with the calcium supplements for now. Actually no, she isn't on a single balanced recipe, my vet is very strong on a very varied diet that is balanced over time not necessarily over each meal, and wants her to get everything as much as possible from natural food (like real sardine over a capsule) She sent me to the dogaware site. I will be doing blood work again to make sure all is ok. She does get yogurt and buttermilk everyday for probiotics.


----------



## jessica-01

Just to say thank you to everyone who has commented on this thread. I think most of us are of the same view, namely that it is vitally important we have as many accurate facts before us as possible, in order to allow each individual to make a well-informed choice as to what is best for their individual fur-baby and that there are certainly no proven reasons why raw should not be an option. 

The articles referred to in one or two comments here are, with respect, typical of the misinformation being published about raw feeding. It is tempting to say that it is part of a mass conspiracy funded by the multi-billion pound dog and cat food industry, and this would not entirely be untrue.Thankfully the majority of the other comments here plainly illustrate that the idea that the bacteria on raw food is harmful can be explained away as just ridiculous. The fact that the bad bacteria can be destroyed by freezing for 3+ days aside, essentially it all has to do with canine biology. The mistake being made here is that canine digestion is the same as human digestion. It isn't. As has been said, human saliva contains enzymes and the digestive system starts working as soon as we start chewing. Dogs don't have enzymes in their saliva but do have much, much stronger stomach acids that we do, (which incidentally destroy any probiotics fed to the dog, before they get an opportunity to reach the part of the canine body where they provide their benefit). That's why doglets gulp their food. It is also why they need it to be raw...cooking kills off most of the enzymes on food making it harder for dogs to digest. It takes a dog about 4 or 5 hours on average to digest raw food and up to 15 hours to digest processed food.

Also, the dogs need the bacteria on raw meat because it contains enzymes, amino acids etc which they need for their digestion. Salmonella and all those naughty bacteria could just possibly be bad for them, (although they are more resilient than humans because they have stronger stomachs), BUT the point is it won't be on the meat if it has been looked after properly. 

So, in summary, I'd say that including raw meat on a list of foods to avoid feeding, for no reason particularly relating to the individual dog, is unhelpful and regrettable. 

Thanks for reading!

xx


----------



## princessre

silverhaven said:


> Not sure Lola can eat raw. Firstly she isn't overly fond, I put some in her homecooked food and she pulled it out and left it on the floor.....lol, she looked at me as if to say, "why have you spoiled my dinner?"


:HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley:Hysterical!


----------



## iheartbisou

Just wondering, are there studies that have been done to show the benefits and/or consequences of feeding raw food to dogs? If so, who did these studies?


----------



## vjw

iheartbisou said:


> Just wondering, are there studies that have been done to show the benefits and/or consequences of feeding raw food to dogs? If so, who did these studies?


 


There is no scientific proof of the benefits of feeding raw.

In fact, a March 2001 Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association article cited a study which tested several raw diets and found they had measurable nutrient deficiencies or excesses of some nutrients which could cause serious nutritional and health risks when used long term.

The old "it's what dogs ate in the wild" argument is ludicrous. Todays wild canids who are taken into captivity are typically found to be malnourished and highly parasitic. Many of them have short life expectancies in the wild. 

You put your dog and you at risk for numerous pathogens and parasites with raw.

This is why the American Veterinary Medical Association, the British Veterinary Medical Association, The Canadian Veterinary Association, the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control, and numerous public health agencies ADVOCATE AGAINST FEEDING RAW.

It is my understanding that a couple of Canadian studies which evaluated the risks of raw diets are the reason the Delta Society no longer allows dogs who are fed raw diets to participate in their program. I'm going on memory on this so don't quote me on this one. I'm pretty sure this is in an article that's in the stack of material I have.




There will a more detailed report from me later with links. B) I plan to read over a bunch of material I have printed out about raw diets this weekend.


----------



## puppy lover

Good question!

Here is one compelling study
http://www.enzyme-nutrition.com/cats.php

GREAT ARTICLE!!!!
Myths About Raw: Is there scientific research to back raw diets?

I love when it says "One million years of evolution apparently is not enough
evidence for those citing lack of research and lack of studies in scientific literature."

Another really good reason that there aren't more studies is because some dogs would suffer - and most people are not willing to volunteer their dog for that.

This article also shows how the pet food companies and bogus organizations like AAFCO mislead the public with their studies. 



iheartbisou said:


> Just wondering, are there studies that have been done to show the benefits and/or consequences of feeding raw food to dogs? If so, who did these studies?


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie

wooflife said:


> Raw fed dogs are typically very healthy dogs so their immune systems can tackle bacteria and parasites before they become a problem. Parasites hate healthy hosts.
> 
> Also, *freezing the meat for 72 hours* before feeding will kill any possible parasites that might exist. Recommended for pork, rabbit, and venison.
> 
> Any raw food that has been through the HPP process will be bacteria and parasite free. Stella & Chewy's as well as* Natures Variety* go through this process. They both have frozen raw and dehydrated raw products.
> 
> I've been doing some research online and it looks as though most bacterial problems in raw fed animals are because of underlying health issues that had not been addressed prior to the introduction to raw food.
> 
> I'm still brushing up though and looking for more information.


As a person previously negative about raw dog food......:

I tried just about all the great holistic natural and organic canned, kibble, and dehydrated foods on Shoni and could not find one he would consistently eat. Some were only eaten for 1 or 2 times, some for months then he lost interest in them. I even tried some of the most approved home recipes. I finally decided to try a frozen raw. After researching the ones I have available, I discovered the Natures Variety Instinct frozen raw medallions. He only eats 1 & 1/2 medallions a day and gobbles it up. He still eats a 1/4 c. of a good organic kibble too. Variety is important! The medallions come in chicken, beef, lamb, venison, bison, and I think rabbit. I rotate the ones he likes best, chicken, beef, and lamb. When thawed I chopped it up into small bites and sprinkle his Missing Link over it and cap it off with a few tiny bits of cooked chicken breast (an "appetizer"). He has been eating this for about a year now, and still loves it.

Shoni does have high bile acids, (asymptomatic MVD) but his routine chem panel blood work is perfect. He doesn't need probiotics anymore with raw food. His is very healthy. He doesn't have any red staining or allergy. His previous tummy troubles have disappeared. 

I was very skeptical about a raw diet, and I still won't just throw down raw fresh meat for him. This stuff I'm feeding him is tested and I believe is safe. It has all the vitamins and minerals needed. With home cooked there is the chance of not having all the right nutritional components or the wrong amounts. 

I'm very happy to have found a food Shoni not only likes to eat, but is making him even happier and healthier than he was.:thumbsup:


----------



## jmm

Most experimental feeding studies are either done on the level of university clients (for example research dog food to prevent bladder stones) or controlled studies in the laboratory where the animals live there. People don't normally get to volunteer their healthy pets for such things.


----------



## vjw

puppy lover said:


> Good question!
> 
> Here is one compelling study
> http://www.enzyme-nutrition.com/cats.php
> 
> GREAT ARTICLE!!!!
> Myths About Raw: Is there scientific research to back raw diets?
> 
> I love when it says "One million years of evolution apparently is not enough
> evidence for those citing lack of research and lack of studies in scientific literature."
> 
> Another really good reason that there aren't more studies is because some dogs would suffer - and most people are not willing to volunteer their dog for that.
> 
> This article also shows how the pet food companies and bogus organizations like AAFCO mislead the public with their studies.


 


This "compelling" study (Pottenger's Cats) study has loooonnng been proven to be flawed!!!

Lesson of the Pottenger's Cats Experiment--Cats Are Not Humans


All of you please, please, check out the "facts" you are given by the alternative bunch. You'll find so much of their facts aren't supported by truth or credible scientific studies.

Also, I'm sick of hearing the lies about the AAFCO. One can easily check out information regarding the AAFCO as well. You can even check out the membership and their credentials here:

Membership Directory


----------



## mcaldw01

Dee, I'm glad to hear you are feeding the Instinct brand....I started this about a month ago and Hemi's tear stains are almost gone....I also mix it with the New balance sweet potato and fish kibble in the morning....they both gobbl it up! I was worried about giving raw and especially after reading all of the feedback...sometimes you just don't know.

It's turned out to be a great thing for us and my boys look forward to eating their breakfast every morning!


----------



## Chalex

I think raw food is a great way to go for healthy dogs. I used to (8 years ago) buy raw chicken wings and give them to my dogs. It was great for a few years but one of my dogs had Addisons and couldn't handle it anymore, so I switched him to homecooked. Then my other dog had some teeth pulled, so I switched her as well. Now I feed Preston (young and healthy maltese) commercial raw food and Lucy (15.5 years old) cooked chicken and brown rice. You have to know your dog and what works best for him.

By the way, Presto gets Instinct too.


----------



## puppy lover

This is what I read in Food Pets Die For and Pitcairns book: 

The AAFCO allows pet food ingredients to not be fit for human consumption. These include diseased animals, euthanized pets, pets recycled from veterinary hospitals, roadkill, inexpensive fillers, toxic chemicals such as carbolic acid and creosote. I could go on but you get the point. The books also cites numerous veterinarians who state that these foods are a direct cause of much of the cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc that pets are diagnosed and dying of in huge numbers. 

The authors also say that the AAFCO regulations are not followed in all states and this regulatory body has no power to enforce these rules. 

Is the above information I got in those two books wrong? Please provide evidence to the contrary if you have it. 

I also read that a substantial number of positions held by AAFCO representatives work or are tied to the pet food industry. This is like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank.
Incestuous Pet Food Regulation Allows Consumers to Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes

I stand by Pottengers cat study and have seen raw do wonders for some pets. The study you point out shows it cant be extrapolated to humans - it doesn't say that it's not appropriate for dogs.

If it works for some pets, when nothing else has, why put it down? Sometimes it takes science a while to catch up with reality. 
If you see SM members who are saying that the raw diet is helping their pets and relieving them of suffering without ill effects, isn't that more important than a study anyway? 

I think it's good to know the limitations of a raw diet, as others have said, so thank you for contributing your information! It's something to be done with thought and consideration.




vjw said:


> This "compelling" study (Pottenger's Cats) study has loooonnng been proven to be flawed!!!
> 
> Lesson of the Pottenger's Cats Experiment--Cats Are Not Humans
> 
> 
> All of you please, please, check out the "facts" you are given by the alternative bunch. You'll find so much of their facts aren't supported by truth or credible scientific studies.
> 
> Also, I'm sick of hearing the lies about the AAFCO. One can easily check out information regarding the AAFCO as well. You can even check out the membership and their credentials here:
> 
> Membership Directory


----------



## mcaldw01

Here's a really good article I found regarding raw food diets.

Dog Breeders Who Only Feed Raw Dog Food Diets | Happy Dog Cafe & Boutique, Inc. - Belmont, NC


----------



## vjw

puppy lover said:


> This is what I read in Food Pets Die For and Pitcairns book:
> 
> The AAFCO allows pet food ingredients to not be fit for human consumption. These include diseased animals, euthanized pets, pets recycled from veterinary hospitals, roadkill, inexpensive fillers, toxic chemicals such as carbolic acid and creosote. I could go on but you get the point. The books also cites numerous veterinarians who state that these foods are a direct cause of much of the cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc that pets are diagnosed and dying of in huge numbers.
> 
> The authors also say that the AAFCO regulations are not followed in all states and this regulatory body has no power to enforce these rules.
> 
> Is the above information I got in those two books wrong? Please provide evidence to the contrary if you have it.
> 
> I also read that a substantial number of positions held by AAFCO representatives work or are tied to the pet food industry. This is like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank.
> Incestuous Pet Food Regulation Allows Consumers to Feed their Pets Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes
> 
> I stand by Pottengers cat study and have seen raw do wonders for some pets. The study you point out shows it cant be extrapolated to humans - it doesn't say that it's not appropriate for dogs.
> 
> If it works for some pets, when nothing else has, why put it down? Sometimes it takes science a while to catch up with reality.
> If you see SM members who are saying that the raw diet is helping their pets and relieving them of suffering without ill effects, isn't that more important than a study anyway?
> 
> I think it's good to know the limitations of a raw diet, as others have said, so thank you for contributing your information! It's something to be done with thought and consideration.


 

Wow that paragraph from Food Pets Die For is laughable. I can't believe that anyone would believe this stuff.

That study in the link contains "some" truth but is so biased that it contains a lot of misleading information.

Here's an oversimplified version of the regulatory agencies overseeing pet food:

Government Regulation of the Pet Food Industry


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## vjw

vjw said:


> There is no scientific proof of the benefits of feeding raw.
> 
> In fact, a March 2001 Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association article cited a study which tested several raw diets and found they had measurable nutrient deficiencies or excesses of some nutrients which could cause serious nutritional and health risks when used long term.
> 
> The old "it's what dogs ate in the wild" argument is ludicrous. Todays wild canids who are taken into captivity are typically found to be malnourished and highly parasitic. Many of them have short life expectancies in the wild.
> 
> You put your dog and you at risk for numerous pathogens and parasites with raw.
> 
> This is why the American Veterinary Medical Association, the British Veterinary Medical Association, The Canadian Veterinary Association, the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control, and numerous public health agencies ADVOCATE AGAINST FEEDING RAW.
> 
> It is my understanding that a couple of Canadian studies which evaluated the risks of raw diets are the reason the Delta Society no longer allows dogs who are fed raw diets to participate in their program. I'm going on memory on this so don't quote me on this one. I'm pretty sure this is in an article that's in the stack of material I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *There will a more detailed report from me later with links. B) I plan to read over a bunch of material I have printed out about raw diets this weekend.*






When will I ever learn to not make promises? I have not had time to read through the articles on raw I've printed out. 

One of our heating units went out this weekend and I've had to deal with getting that fixed, and then I remembered that I needed to do three hours of continuing education. Even though I'm not working I still keep up my credentials. One way to get continuing education credits is to read professional journal articles and complete quizzes at the end of the article.

One of the articles I read was about quality measures that hospitals and insurance companies are using to gauge quality of care in hospitals. I found it interesting that payers are increasingly tying reimbursement to the quality of the services rendered.:aktion033: They are checking the abilities of a person or facility to screen for, diagnose, and manage disease. They are checking for the timeliness and accuracy of diagnosis, the appropriateness of therapy, and complications or mishaps that occured during treatment.

Most of the data is available to the public (just yet), however I did find out about two interesting "report card" type sites for hospitals.

The first one is the government's hospitalcompare.hhs.gov. I think this may only include Medicare patient's experience of their quality of care, but it's a start! I thought it was interesting to see patient's views of hospitals.

Once you find the hospitals in your area and select the ones you're interested in comparing, you can click on the "Quality" tab. 

Medicare Hospital Compare Quality of Care


The other one is a private organization called Leapfrog Group. 

The Leapfrog Group for Patient Safety



Joy


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## puppy lover

Well that's great to see such strides being made for patient safety and care. Great websites, thank you Joy.

Just an added note on raw. After further research what I've realized is that there are compelling studies for both sides of the issue but I haven't found anything conclusive for either side. So tonight when I made of batch of homecooked food I did cook it but left the beef a bit rare. I thought that was a good compromise


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