# Is my girl mad at me?



## Vicky Wydysh (Jun 30, 2006)

Hi all,

My girl Emma is now 4 months old and doing quite well. She has been doing her business in a litter box after I had her for 2 weeks. I would say that she is about 98% trained with a odd mess. She messed a few times when we were on vacation at my mom's house, which I am assuming it was due to change.

Anyhow, my question is I had to leave her in her x-pen for a full 8 hours alone for the first time since I have had her. She did all of her business in her box, then when I got home she was happy as usual. Then I turn around and there she leaves a gift for me right on the kitchen floor, a couple of poos. I am wondering, do you think she would do this because she is mad at me for leaving her all day alone?

Vicky


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

Our girl Sylphide is pad and outdoor trained and very good about using them except when she is mad at us. Then she is sure to leave a statement at the door where we enter, or at the top of the stairs. I call them "revenge statements".

The one time that really had us shaking our heads was when she was really, really mad because Shrek got to go to obedience classes by himself with me. She talked poor 10 year old Ozzy, who has NEVER done this and would NEVER think of it himself, to leave a double revenge statement from both of them, side by side, at the top of the stairs (Ozzy is a 30 1b mix, so the difference is obvious).


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> Our girl Sylphide is pad and outdoor trained and very good about using them except when she is mad at us. Then she is sure to leave a statement at the door where we enter, or at the top of the stairs. I call them "revenge statements".
> 
> The one time that really had us shaking our heads was when she was really, really mad because Shrek got to go to obedience classes by himself with me. She talked poor 10 year old Ozzy, who has NEVER done this and would NEVER think of it himself, to leave a double revenge statement from both of them, side by side, at the top of the stairs (Ozzy is a 30 1b mix, so the difference is obvious).[/B]


ya know, when massimo was under year... i would leave and i could hear him throw a fit. when i would come back home, there in front of the door would be a surprise for me. i told a few people that he only messed in the house when he was angry with me... *i heard on here that dogs don't think that way.* i'm sorry, but massimo was 100% pad trained. the only time he would mess in the house is when i was away and he was angry. i have a hard time believing it's coincidence. 

i was witness to an incident with a shiba inu. the dog chewed on everything wood in their living room. they tried everything to get him to stop...bought him more toys to keep him distracted like the kong...their latest try was bitter apple...but the dog loved it. well, to keep him from chewing, they tried... i believe it was chili oil. the dog mouthed on the end of the coffee table where they applied it and just walked away. they were ecstatic! it finally worked!! then my friend went upstairs to get a photo album to show to me...and when she came down she was horrified. she called me and her husband upstairs to witness what she saw. the dog went upstairs, crapped in the middle of their bed and the poop was kicked and splattered all over the adjacent wall. there was a puddle of pee on the bed that would drown massimo and there were at least 3 pairs of shoes destroyed on the bed. the dog just sat in the middle of the doorway to their master bath watching their reactions. i swear, that dog was mad about the chili oil and went upstairs to their bedroom to teach them a lesson. i seriously don't think you could convince me otherwise.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Lucy does this too when she's mad. If I take my kids to school and don't take her with me, I am garaunteed to have a revenge poop waiting for me too, even if she'd just pooped minutes before I left.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I am in no way convinced that dogs have such human frailties as revenge, spite, etc. I have never read a dog training book that shows any research proving this. JMM has posted many times that dogs don't do things out of spite and she has a lot of experience and has read much regarding how dogs learn and behave. I believe there are other reasons for a behavior causing a dog to do what looks like revenge or spite. 

Last year we started a thread focusing on the book "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. Here's what I learned from Chapter 9: "For those who haven't read this, basically every time the owner sees the dog chewing furniture, the dog is reprimanded. So the dog doesn't chew furniture as long as the owner is home. But when the owner leaves the dog goes back to chewing furniture because he is bored or whatever.

When the owner comes home the dog looks guilty by having ears back, slinking around, etc. 

One view would be that the dog knows chewing furniture is wrong and gets back at the owner for being gone by chewing furniture... knowing it's wrong and feeling guilty afterward. 

However, the view the author supports is that the dog has learned that chewing furniture when the owner is home is dangerous but it is OK when he is gone. When the owner comes home he reprimands the dog, so eventually as soon as the owner comes home, the dog "behaves appeasingly" to avoid the punishment he knows occurs when the owner comes home. 

'The owner's arrival home and/or pre-punishment demeanor have become a predictor: The dog knows he's about to be punished. He doesn't know why.' (Donaldson, J., The Culture Clash).

This makes such sense.... I've heard of people saying they came home and they knew their dog did something bad because they looked guilty. They accuse their dog of being vindictive, etc. And the poor dog... he's being reprimanded and doesn't have a clue why.... I wish every dog owner understood this."

Here's the link to the thread: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...ic=2191&hl=


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## mightymite (Jul 5, 2005)

While I do think Jean Donaldson goes over the edge a bit - too far the "other" direction (for a comparison - try "Suzanne Clothier's "Bones Would Rain From the Sky"), I have to agree that when a dog messes the house it isn't being done "to get even." Dogs are creatures of habit. They do feel feelings such as confusion, insecurity . . . if you mess with the "program" your dog has been on, you can throw him or her off. It isn't about getting back at you, it's a response to a change in the dogs environment or schedule. How many times have you seen that contrite expression almost as soon as it happens? Dogs don't want to be "Bad." Everything in their genetic make up - centries of selective breeding - is geared to pleasing humans. So, no,your dog might be confused, but she isn't "mad" at you.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> Hi all,
> 
> My girl Emma is now 4 months old and doing quite well. She has been doing her business in a litter box after I had her for 2 weeks. I would say that she is about 98% trained with a odd mess. She messed a few times when we were on vacation at my mom's house, which I am assuming it was due to change.
> 
> ...


No.
If you think about it for a bit, this type of situation where she thinks "I'm mad and I am going to get even by pooping here" requires a much higher level of thought than a Maltese is capable of. As Ceasar frequently says, dogs live in the moment. I know that some people will insist otherwise and I will let you all have your opinions if that floats your boat.


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## Vicky Wydysh (Jun 30, 2006)

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the feedback,, although I didn't realize that this could be such a "touchy" subject. There are for certain very different "expert" opinions out there about dog behaviour,, JUST AS THERE ARE THE SAME FOR HUMANS,, HOW TO RAISE YOUR KIDS,, DISCIPLINE ETC...

I do beleive that for sure, dogs will do different things when a normal schedule is changed, but just as dogs are living creatures, they have a wide spectrum of emotions and feelings. I actually don't think that being angry is at all wrong or "BAD" that is if a dog is or isn't able to feel angry or mad at their owner. * In humans we can feel angry or upset, but it is what we do with our anger that can do harm or wrong, so the * *actual emotion isn't wrong at all.* I do agree that the thought process and levels are different from human beings. The bottom line here is no matter how my dog feels or acts, I will love her no matter what. But I do find it very interesting that she would put her poo in a spot behind me on the kitchen floor (VERY OBVIOUS) that day. ; )

thanks,,

Vicky


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

Scientific research isn't the same as training theory, and I think that some folks confuse various theories with actual scientific fact. Most training books (and popular beliefs about dog behavior) are based on someone's beliefs and methods, not necessarily on scientifically researched facts about canine behavior and cognition. Heck, we don't even know much about human cognition and neuroscience yet (recent discoveries about the brain are changing what we used to think we know about how humans learn). And we certainly know very little about the human mind (including whether or not such a thing as "mind" even exists).

Recent research on canine cognition indicated that dogs do a higher capacity for thinking that previously believed:

Clever Canines

Of course, scientists differ on both sides. There is also scientific evidence showing the contrary. 

Two books:

Pro higher level cognition in dogs: If Dogs Could Talk: Exploring the Canine Mind, Vilmos Csányi
Against higher level cognition in dogs: How Dogs Think: Understanding the Canine Mind, Stanley Coren

These are all preliminary findings in nascent fields, and as in all scientific studies, limited to the findings that emerge based on the methods and experiments used. In other words, a tiny sliver of possibility, in the world of possibilities, based on our very limited understanding of the mind and the brain.

To find out more about current research on this topic, read the article, Can Dogs Think, by By Bruce Blumberg and Raymond Coppinger:

Can Dog's Think

PS, as for myself, I believe that dogs do "think", are "conscious", and, as sentient beings, experience emotions. So, I'm on the PRO side







Entirely unscientifically, of course...


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

> PS, as for myself, I believe that dogs do "think", are "conscious", and, as sentient beings, experience emotions. So, I'm on the PRO side
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do too. And I am having trouble accepting that they don't do things on purpose. From my own experience with dogs, it sure looked like they knew perfectly well what they were doing. I will take an exemple of our late dachshund called Iris. Iris was in a box for the 2 first years of her life. We bought her from the breeder, brought her home, peed once on my rug, caught her doing it, showed her that she has to do that outside. She never peed in my house again. We move to Houston, first in a Motel, then in an appartment. Dog cannot go outside without being on leash. Dog starts peeing in the living room every night at the same time. Caught her in the act and she went hiding under the couch. My husband tried to pull her from under the couch and almost got bitten so darn mad she was. Adjacent to one of the bedrooms was a little enclosed patio, so I thought I will let her go and do her business there, no leash needed for that. You know what she did ? She went with me in the patio, didn't do a thing, came back in with me and peed right there in the middle of the room in front of my nose. Now don't tell me she did not do this on purpose. In her own way she was trying to tell me something. And that something was : Mom I don't like that appartment, I want my house back. We returned to France for vacation and left her with my parents. There she had a big house again, a garden where she did not need a leash, and SHE NEVER PEED INSIDE AGAIN.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> QUOTE





> PS, as for myself, I believe that dogs do "think", are "conscious", and, as sentient beings, experience emotions. So, I'm on the PRO side
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do too. And I am having trouble accepting that they don't do things on purpose. From my own experience with dogs, it sure looked like they knew perfectly well what they were doing. I will take an exemple of our late dachshund called Iris. Iris was in a box for the 2 first years of her life. We bought her from the breeder, brought her home, peed once on my rug, caught her doing it, showed her that she has to do that outside. She never peed in my house again. We move to Houston, first in a Motel, then in an appartment. Dog cannot go outside without being on leash. Dog starts peeing in the living room every night at the same time. Caught her in the act and she went hiding under the couch. My husband tried to pull her from under the couch and almost got bitten so darn mad she was. Adjacent to one of the bedrooms was a little enclosed patio, so I thought I will let her go and do her business there, no leash needed for that. You know what she did ? She went with me in the patio, didn't do a thing, came back in with me and peed right there in the middle of the room in front of my nose. Now don't tell me she did not do this on purpose. In her own way she was trying to tell me something. And that something was : Mom I don't like that appartment, I want my house back. We returned to France for vacation and left her with my parents. There she had a big house again, a garden where she did not need a leash, and SHE NEVER PEED INSIDE AGAIN.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I think she was trying to tell you that she thought the rug was where she was supposed to go or that is where it smelled like where she should go. I cannot in any way think that she was being vindictive.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

She was not being vindictive. She just did not like the confinement of an appartment and not being able to run around outside like she could before. I think she associated the appartment with the box she used to live in in her first 2 years of life. You know, going from a prison to big freedom and then going back to a prison. My mom took her with her when she came to visit us (even flew 1st class ones for free that's another story). By that time we were renting a house. She never peed in that house either. She was a very smart dog. I guess this was her way of telling me she did not like her new environment.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I think you can get yourself into a lot more trouble assuming a dog is being vindictive rather than viewing the behavior as a stress reaction or simply that the dog is not 100% trained (and giving too much freedom or not ensuring the dog has gone before offering freedom are the two most common house training mishaps on the owner's part). Moving, separation anxiety, new babies, etc. are all huge stressors for our creatures of habit. House training violations are a very common symptom of that. I highly doubt most dogs are "mad" their owners leave. They probably have some degree of separation anxiety and are stressed about the situation. This is why it is important to give your dog a schedule and guidelines so that they can be comfortable in daily life situations. Soda Pop acted out the first few times I left him - from stress. Once he settled in and understood the established routine, he laid on a bed like the rest of the dogs and relaxes while we're gone. No big deal. The routine offers him security and comfort. At 7 1/2 months, he stays loose in the downstairs of the house when I leave him home alone. Elsewhere, he stays crated and goes to sleep if I leave him alone.


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## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

I work with dogs everyday, LOTS of them. 
Over the years I have come to the conclusion that dogs are indeed spiteful at times. I do not care about research or whatnot, I have seen it with my own eyes for years and I am completely convinced that they can be spiteful when something does not go the way they want. I have had too many experiences to buy into the "it's just change that stresses them out" or whatever. 
But that is just what I believe is true, and no one has to agree with me. But no one can convince me otherwise.


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