# ? about breeder before I buy from Facebook



## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

Someone is rehoming a 15 week old male maltese. Her children are too rough. He came from Kangs Farms social circle ga shih Tzu and Maltese breeders Does anyone have any information on them good or bad. She is posting this dog on a yardsale website. I would love to save him but want to know what Im getting into. He is up to date on shots and has not been fixed yet. She is asking $350. I really want this baby.


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## lydiatug (Feb 21, 2012)

I would be very cautious...responsible breeders always have a contract in place ensuring the pup goes back to them. Also "posting for a friend" on fb...questionable. Please do be careful


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

Should I call the breeder? What do I ask? Ive never bought from a breeder I always rescue my animals. Sorry for so many questions I just dont want to jump into something I cant handle.


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

ok, nevermind. The breeder only gave her a 48 hour health guarantee. That sounds to sketchy for me.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

If it were me, I would steer clear. I can't even find this breeder on google. There are a couple of mentions on FB pages but nothing else. But here is a link to Yorkie Talk about them and the sick puppy they were sold. The puppy was apparently sold off at approx 5 weeks of age. So, in all liklihood this is a puppy mill dog. And the owner that is now selling on a Yard Sale web site should be ashamed. That puppy needs to be given to rescue to be rehomed. And the fact that she is trying to get $350.00 for him is very suspect to me.

YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community - View Single Post - Sick, 1.1 pound puppy is lethargic, not eating/drinking. Please help!!!


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## LovelyLily (Mar 26, 2013)

Hopefully there really isn't a dog needing a new home -- just a person trying to scam to get $$$ without giving a dog in return.


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## Chardy (Oct 30, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> If it were me, I would steer clear. I can't even find this breeder on google. There are a couple of mentions on FB pages but nothing else. But here is a link to Yorkie Talk about them and the sick puppy they were sold. The puppy was apparently sold off at approx 5 weeks of age. So, in all liklihood this is a puppy mill dog. And the owner that is now selling on a Yard Sale web site should be ashamed. That puppy needs to be given to rescue to be rehomed. And the fact that she is trying to get $350.00 for him is very suspect to me.
> 
> YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community - View Single Post - Sick, 1.1 pound puppy is lethargic, not eating/drinking. Please help!!!


Nice detective work Pam!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

It is so sad to see and ad like this. One really wants to save the poor puppy, but that would be putting $$$ in the hands of bad people, and perhaps buying a lot of healthcare expenses and grief and sorrow.

How little thought people give to getting a puppy, she didn't know her kids were rough? And then how little thought is given to find a new home for the puppy. So, sad.


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

Well, I did it. I called the vet and made sure he was up to date and was healthy at his check up. I looked him over. His eyes, ears, and teeth look good. He is energetic and eats and drinks good. I brought Mindi to the meet and she approved. A young mom bought him for a mere $400 which means she surely got him from a mill. But I just couldnt resist. what she did has already been done but I knew I could give him a good loving home. I hope everything stays good and I dont regret my choice. Here is a picture of the car ride home. Oliver will be one of my daughter's Christmas presents. Here he is... welcome Oliver to his forever home.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Mindi's mom said:


> Well, I did it. I called the vet and made sure he was up to date and was healthy at his check up. I looked him over. His eyes, ears, and teeth look good. He is energetic and eats and drinks good. I brought Mindi to the meet and she approved. A young mom bought him for a mere $400 which means she surely got him from a mill. But I just couldnt resist. what she did has already been done but I knew I could give him a good loving home. I hope everything stays good and I dont regret my choice. Here is a picture of the car ride home. Oliver will be one of my daughter's Christmas presents. Here he is... welcome Oliver to his forever home.


I hope you didn't give her any money for him at least. I hope he does well for you.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Congratulations. If he's healthy, that's all that really matters, at least to me. My first dog was from a puppy mill and was happy and healthy for 17 years. He had originally been purchased in a pet store and I adopted him at 8 mos. A puppy mill puppy is not the ideal, but everyone needs a loving home! 

A friend/co-worker of mine in Texas recently bought a Maltese puppy for a breeder she knows. He only breeds Maltese. They're CKC vs. AKC. She paid $400 for him. She told me he's been a breeder for over 20 years, lives on farm, really nice guy. Maybe he's from a similar situation.

Enjoy him!


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

Congrats! What a happy picture of Oliver and your daughter! I wish only the best for you


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

kd1212 said:


> Congratulations. If he's healthy, that's all that really matters, at least to me. My first dog was from a puppy mill and was happy and healthy for 17 years. He had originally been purchased in a pet store and I adopted him at 8 mos. A puppy mill puppy is not the ideal, but everyone needs a loving home!
> 
> A friend/co-worker of mine in Texas recently bought a Maltese puppy for a breeder she knows. He only breeds Maltese. They're CKC vs. AKC. She paid $400 for him. She told me he's been a breeder for over 20 years, lives on farm, really nice guy. Maybe he's from a similar situation.
> 
> Enjoy him!


Oliver is also CKC.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

He looks so happy and comfortable with your daughter. It really does seem like a truthful story on the women's end and very similar to my coworker's purchase for the same amount/CKC and you spoke to the Vet who confirmed the health and up-to-date on shots. Now, it's time to enjoy and love your newest family member! BTW, I think CKC just has different standards and is newer.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Awwww your daughter looks so happy:wub:
I'm glad you are giving him a wonderful home
Hopefully he will be one of the lucky ones and
He won't have health issues.
Your daughter is beautiful :wub: she will have years
Of special memories:wub: I'm hoping he will stay healthy for you


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Mindi's mom said:


> Oliver is also CKC.


In order to register a puppy with AKC, both parents have to be registered with AKC. The only way the parents can be registered with AKC is if their parents were registered with AKC, and so on. AKC originated in 1884. Therefore you are absolutely guaranteed that you are paying for a purebred dog.

In order to register a dog with CKC, you simply have to mail them a picture of the dog, tell them what breed you want to register it as and get two unverified signatures on the application for registration. So you could find a male or female and if you thought it was purebred you could register that dog and breed it.

AKC also requires a strict record keeping guideline which is not a problem for breeders concerned about the integrity of purebred puppies.


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks everybody. He waited a whole 4 hours but finally went pee on his pee pee pad like a big boy. It almost bed time. The previous owner says he is a bed sleeper from 9pm-6am. So here we go!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Continental Kennel Club advertises puppies for sale on it's website. I saw ads for Malt-poo, Yorki-poo etc. I see it as a registration service to make puppymills and backyard breeders look legitimate...to fool people. Every pure bred dog should come with AKC registration, so there is no reason that a pure breed would not have AKC registration. While, unethical people can cheat somewhat on AKC registration, I cannot see any reason why any ethical breeder would not register with AKC, but go to CKC instead. In my mind it is a huge red flag.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Here is an article showing the differences. While AKC had the monopoly until 20 years ago, CKC is just an alternative with different breed standards and ways of registration. It's also cheaper to register CKC. It says that both have their negatives and both weed out not reputable breeders. My co-worker's CKC dog comes from a breeder with 20 years under his belt and her dog lived healthily until he was 16 earlier this year.

Difference Between CKC and AKC | Difference Between | CKC vs AKC


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Yay--so good already! Hope you have a great first night. He really seems to be adjusting well!!!



Mindi's mom said:


> Thanks everybody. He waited a whole 4 hours but finally went pee on his pee pee pad like a big boy. It almost bed time. The previous owner says he is a bed sleeper from 9pm-6am. So here we go!


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

Sylie said:


> Continental Kennel Club advertises puppies for sale on it's website. I saw ads for Malt-poo, Yorki-poo etc. I see it as a registration service to make puppymills and backyard breeders look legitimate...to fool people. Every pure bred dog should come with AKC registration, so there is no reason that a pure breed would not have AKC registration. While, unethical people can cheat somewhat on AKC registration, I cannot see any reason why any ethical breeder would not register with AKC, but go to CKC instead. In my mind it is a huge red flag.


Oh well, thats fine by me. All of my animals are rescues without papers. As long as Oliver stays healthy and happy that is all that matters to me. I dont plan on showing or breeding him. He will just be another fur-baby to lay in my lap and sleep in my bed. I do see what you are saying about what that says about the breeder but when she told me she only paid $400 for him I knew he wasnt a ...well, I dont know the word I'm looking for.. because he will be perfect no matter what. He doesnt have to be a purebred for me to love him just the same. I just hope he can be 1/2 the dog that Mindi is. And I love her with her allergies and her silly eyes (one has "eyeliner" and one doesnt). He needed a home and I have plenty of love to give. I know Im not guaranteed anything.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I wish you the best with Oliver.

However, what people don't seem to realize is that by giving this "poor mother" money for a puppy mill dog that she bought, you are encouraging the continuation of deplorable conditions for Oliver's mother and others like her. If you truly want to "rescue" a dog, please go to a reputable shelter or non-profit rescue organization, not someone who is suffering buyers remorse for a puppy mill dog.

And, if you really don't think puppy mills are all that bad, spend some time with the mothers who survive - It is truly heartbreaking.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

kd1212 said:


> Congratulations. If he's healthy, that's all that really matters, at least to me. My first dog was from a puppy mill and was happy and healthy for 17 years. He had originally been purchased in a pet store and I adopted him at 8 mos. A puppy mill puppy is not the ideal, but everyone needs a loving home!
> 
> A friend/co-worker of mine in Texas recently bought a Maltese puppy for a breeder she knows. He only breeds Maltese. They're CKC vs. AKC. She paid $400 for him. She told me he's been a breeder for over 20 years, lives on farm, really nice guy. Maybe he's from a similar situation.
> 
> Enjoy him!


By continuing to support these types of "breeders" you are continuing to promote the problem of unethical irresponsible breeding. 

A friend of mine adopted a dog from a rescue. This dog had been used for breeding in exactly the type of situation you describe. She was in deplorable condition- rotten teeth, mats, filthy. We took her home before the rescue had a chance to do the dental, and her mouth was so rotten that we had to keep the car windows open on the way home. My friends vet said she had never smelled anything so bad in the 20 plus years she had been practicing.

I'm sure you don't think this is OK, so please think twice before supporting these types of irresponsible breeding practices.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Camille, I most certainly wish you and your little Oliver a long and happy life together. In 1983 I bought my newly deceased mother's boyfriend a Yorkie, under very similar circumstances. There was a newspaper ad for a little guy who had to be re-homed, because the kids were too rough. He turned out to be a perfect little guy, true to the breed. He lived a long life and brought a great deal of joy into the man's life. It was a blessed experience that I cherish.

I wish the same for you with your little Oliver....It is just that this website, and we long time members, are no longer able to condone reckless breeding, by joining we are sworn to stop puppymills and backyard breeders. We love the Maltese breed and strive to support breeders who have the knowledge and dedication to strive to improve the breed, to never breed a dog with genetic health problems, to know the lineage of every dog they breed in order to weed out genetic health issues. 

So, that is not only my stand, but the mission of our forum.

All the same, I wish you the very best with you dear Oscar. He certainly is a sweet baby, and he deserves a kind and loving home.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

How do you know the breeder is unethical? My coworker knows her for years and is a wonderful guy and you don't know that the breeder this women originally bought the dog from is the same. My coworker has a beautiful, healthy and happy CKC registered dog from a small town breeder. The dog has a loving home. Oliver now has a loving home and the intent was there with his first home. There are so many homeless dogs out there who are not purebred or AKC that are adopted to loving homes, but many are not. Thank God these people are less concerned with registration and the reputation of the breeder and more concerned about saving lives. My first dog was a rescue and what mattered solely to me was not his AKC status or if he was from a puppy mill, although that saddened me, but that he was healthy and that I vowed to provide a safe, happy and loving home.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

kd1212 said:


> How do you know the breeder is unethical? My coworker knows her for years and is a wonderful guy and you don't know that the breeder this women originally bought the dog from is the same. My coworker has a beautiful, healthy and happy CKC registered dog from a small town breeder. The dog has a loving home. Oliver now has a loving home and the intent was there with his first home. There are so many homeless dogs out there who are not purebred or AKC that are adopted to loving homes, but many are not. Thank God these people are less concerned with registration and the reputation of the breeder and more concerned about saving lives. My first dog was a rescue and what mattered solely to me was not his AKC status or if he was from a puppy mill, although that saddened me, but that he was healthy and that I vowed to provide a safe, happy and loving home.


First let me say Thank You to Maggie and Sylvia for saying what was on my mind here too. I am happy this little pup is in a better home, but it is still NOT A RESCUE! It is exactly what Maggie and Sylvia said, it is furthering the problem. Now, as to the question "how do you know the breeder is unethical?" In this case, after a brief check, I was able to find that this particular breeder sells puppies at 5 weeks of age. That isn't even legal in most states (much less ethical). 

But I think you are referring to the comments about the CKC. Only a CKC person would tell you that they are on an equal status to the AKC. The CKC was formed in the 90's to legitimize the flood of "designer" dogs coming on the market that were not able to be registered. As for your "breeder" that you are speaking about, just because someone is breeding dogs in a farm for 20 years does not make him an ethical breeder. Odds are he is in it for the profit, and not breeding to better the breed. I am not fool enough to believe that we will do away with these people and the dogs they breed. But at least on this forum we have all agreed to hold to the truth about these practices.

And I agree with you about rescues. Who cares what the registration status is when you go to a shelter or a rescue organization and save a life! But "rescue" is a term that is bantered about way to loosely at times. Buying from a BYB that has sick or unwanted dogs is NOT a rescue, finding an unwanted dog on FB or Craigslist is NOT a rescue, if someone is making a profit, it is absolutely NOT a rescue.

Kind-hearted gestures of purchasing a puppy under these circumstances is seen by the store or breeder as a demand for that breed. Without intending to do so, you’ve helped keep another commercial breeder, broker and pet store in business. If you want to help puppies and dogs, head to your local shelter or contact a non-profit rescue that has 501(c)3 status to adopt a dog in need.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

kd1212 said:


> Here is an article showing the differences. While AKC had the monopoly until 20 years ago, CKC is just an alternative with different breed standards and ways of registration. It's also cheaper to register CKC. It says that both have their negatives and both weed out not reputable breeders. My co-worker's CKC dog comes from a breeder with 20 years under his belt and her dog lived healthily until he was 16 earlier this year.
> 
> Difference Between CKC and AKC | Difference Between | CKC vs AKC



What your article does not mention and what is true is that the Continental Kennel Club has been around for those 20 years because that is approximately when AKC started doing DNA testing to assure their records were correct. Many puppy mill breeders abandoned AKC at that time because they did want to have to follow the rules AKC set forth. They turned to the Continental Kennel Club. The Contintental Kennel Club is a for profit registry (a corportation). The AKC is a not for profit. AKC is the only registry that uses a portion of their funds to further research int genetic diseases. 

One should not confuse the Continental Kennel Club (the registry of choice for puppymills and mixed-breed breeders) with the Canadian Kennel Club which like AKC is a legitimate registry. 

Here are some examples of why the Continental Kennel Club is a bogus registry. Those 450 breeds they mention in your article are in fact not breeds. They include things like Morkies, and Peekapoos (designer breeds aka Mutts). They also will allow you to take two dogs of unknown parentage, send them a picture and claim the dogs are purebred, even if you have no idea if that is true and register them and then use them for breeding. 

CKC papers are truly meaningless and in fact giving money to an organization that is set up simply to sell people who do not realize they are buying a useless piece of paper. 

AKC papers provide you with access to a full pedigree on your dog. This pedigree allows you to find out what accomplishments your dogs parents may have had, but more importantly also allows breeders to track genetic characteristics and potential genetic problems that may arise. 

To the OP: This situation was unique and I hope you will be happy with your new puppy. The biggest concern I have with this situation is putting money in the pocket of unscrupulous breeders or brokers, but it seems that was not the case (though FB is rife with such cases that can easily fool people so it pays to be extremely cautious). For the most part, I would rather folks work through legitimate rescues rather than FB or Craig's list postings that often provide a hiding place or store front for those who would exploit these precious animals. However, if the story is true, and the person you acquired this puppy from truly did not profit from this transaction, hopefully no harm was done and you will have many years of joy with your new addition.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

kd1212 said:


> How do you know the breeder is unethical? My coworker knows her for years and is a wonderful guy and you don't know that the breeder this women originally bought the dog from is the same. My coworker has a beautiful, healthy and happy CKC registered dog from a small town breeder. The dog has a loving home. Oliver now has a loving home and the intent was there with his first home. There are so many homeless dogs out there who are not purebred or AKC that are adopted to loving homes, but many are not. Thank God these people are less concerned with registration and the reputation of the breeder and more concerned about saving lives. My first dog was a rescue and what mattered solely to me was not his AKC status or if he was from a puppy mill, although that saddened me, but that he was healthy and that I vowed to provide a safe, happy and loving home.


Ethical, responsible breeders are breeding dogs to preserve and improve the wonderful qualities of our Maltese breed. There are numerous threads on this forum that talk about how to assess an ethical breeder, so please look at the stickies at the top of the Breeders section and you will have the answer to your question of how do I know.

For example, does he actively strive to produce dogs that meet the breed standard? Does he show the dogs to "prove" that they meet the breed standard? Does he study the genetics to try to reduce the likelihood of problems such as liver shunts, luxating patella, etc? Does he do bile acid testing? Does he even know what BAT and liver shunts are?

Breeding to make puppies as pets isn't ethical breeding, it's what we call a back yard breeder and this forum does not condone those practices.

To the OP - what's done is done and I do hope you have years of joy with Olivr. However, the woman you "bought" him from has been rewarded with your money and will likely make another irresponsible pet purchase that puts money in the pockets of a puppy mill owner. This is what I mean when I say you have just supported the problem. If we truly care about the welfare of our precious fluffs, we will actively work to support ethical breeding and rescues. I do hope that all goes well for you, and encourage you to do better research if in the future you decide to add to your fluff family.

As for the Continental Kennel Club, others are correct. It's a registry that was started by mill breeders and back yard breeders to thwart the AKC standards by providing a "registry" for mixed breed dogs aka designer dogs. It's also not to be confused with the Canadian Kennel Club - the Canadian organization is fine, which adds to the confusion/deception on the part of the Continental Kennel Club. If you look at the threads on this forum, Continental KC registry is actually a red flag for puppies.

And yes, thank goodness there are people who don't care about registries and adopt from repurptable rescues - those that are organized as 501(c)3 non-profits. My Tessa was a rescue, and is clearly a mixed breed, and that's perfectly fine. But I adopted her through NMR - she was a stray - and did not put money into the pockets of people who acted irresponsibly in the first place. That's what we mean when we encourage people to support rescue.


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## Chardy (Oct 30, 2008)

:


maggieh said:


> Ethical, responsible breeders are breeding dogs to preserve and improve the wonderful qualities of our Maltese breed. There are numerous threads on this forum that talk about how to assess an ethical breeder, so please look at the stickies at the top of the Breeders section and you will have the answer to your question of how do I know.
> 
> For example, does he actively strive to produce dogs that meet the breed standard? Does he show the dogs to "prove" that they meet the breed standard? Does he study the genetics to try to reduce the likelihood of problems such as liver shunts, luxating patella, etc? Does he do bile acid testing? Does he even know what BAT and liver shunts are?
> 
> ...



:goodpost: :ThankYou:


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses. All of my other animals are true rescues. I adopted them from my local Humane Society. I've learned my lesson about buying puppies. This girl was about 17 years old with a 3 year old child. I dont think she was in this for profit. I am sure she will buy another dog the same way she bought this one sometime in her lifetime. But I dont see how that is my fault. I didnt see my purchase as putting money into a BYB's hands. I just thought I was helping a puppy and a young single mother. I felt bad for them both. I just thought she was trying to recoop 1/2 of the money she put into him. If I was in her situation I probably couldnt throw that much money out the window in 5 weeks. She is young and made a bad decision. Maybe I did the same. I have learned my lesson.


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## luvsmalts (Oct 21, 2008)

Oliver is so cute and your daughter looks so happy. I hope you all many years of happiness together.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

I get what you say about ethical breeders, but you are still judging this particular breeder without knowing anything about him or her. I don't think that's right. The same thing happened to me here and I was scared to death that I'd have a sick dog-just because she wasn't a "known" breeder on the list. I contacted my Vet and had sleepless nights before I brought him home and before the breeder brought him to his first doctor's appointment. It made the experience stressful. Tyler is gorgeous, happy and healthy. Thank God I didn't fully listen to what was said.

And in a sense, rehoming is rescuing.

Instead of judging and making her feel bad and questioning her decision as wrong, we should be congratulating and supporting her decision to provide a loving home and contributing to her and her family's excitement.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

maggieh said:


> I wish you the best with Oliver.
> 
> However, what people don't seem to realize is that by giving this "poor mother" money for a puppy mill dog that she bought, you are encouraging the continuation of deplorable conditions for Oliver's mother and others like her. If you truly want to "rescue" a dog, please go to a reputable shelter or non-profit rescue organization, not someone who is suffering buyers remorse for a puppy mill dog.
> 
> And, if you really don't think puppy mills are all that bad, spend some time with the mothers who survive - It is truly heartbreaking.


This is so true. I have seen first hand the condition of dogs from people who breed for greed. Dogs that could not put a back leg down because it was so matted. This is the dog that pays the ultimate price so someone can have a cute puppy. It is truly heartbreaking. The only way to stop greeders is to not buy the dog no matter what your heart wants. 
My second maltese was bought from a nice lady who had been breeding for years. I happily paid the bargain price of 600 dollars. I only wanted a pet not a show dog. She was perfect so said the vet. when I had blood work for her spay I found out that my perfect little girl had a huge problem "liver disease". I tried to contact the breeder but she did not return my calls. My beautiful little girl died at the age of 5 she would have not made it to 3 had I not found a vet who discovered another huge problem "pancreatic insufficiency". I spent over 15 thousand dollars on her and still had my heart broken. I learned a hard and expensive lesson. I hope you have many happy years with your new pup. I also hope you understand that there are really only 2 ways to stop greeders. Rescue from a reputable rescue or buy a dog from a reputable show breeder.


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## sdubose (Feb 21, 2012)

kd1212 said:


> I get what you say about ethical breeders, but you are still judging this particular breeder without knowing anything about him or her. I don't think that's right. The same thing happened to me here and I was scared to death that I'd have a sick dog-just because she wasn't a "known" breeder on the list. I contacted my Vet and had sleepless nights before I brought him home and before the breeder brought him to his first doctor's appointment. It made the experience stressful. Tyler is gorgeous, happy and healthy. Thank God I didn't fully listen to what was said.
> 
> And in a sense, rehoming is rescuing.
> 
> Instead of judging and making her feel bad and questioning her decision as wrong, we should be congratulating and supporting her decision to provide a loving home and contributing to her and her family's excitement.


 
Kim, No one is trying to judge here, just trying to inform. Please dont be insulted. But the truth is ethical breeders will not be CKC registered. I don't care how nice the person is selling the the pups. They may love their dogs and take good care of them. The dogs may be wonderful. But they are not ethical breeders. My Abbigail is CKC. She is wonderful and I love her. I did not know about any of this before I joined this site. After being on this site a little while I finally got it. Listen to these ladies. They know what they are talking about.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Mindi's mom said:


> Thanks for all the responses. All of my other animals are true rescues. I adopted them from my local Humane Society. I've learned my lesson about buying puppies. This girl was about 17 years old with a 3 year old child. I dont think she was in this for profit. I am sure she will buy another dog the same way she bought this one sometime in her lifetime. But I dont see how that is my fault. I didnt see my purchase as putting money into a BYB's hands. I just thought I was helping a puppy and a young single mother. I felt bad for them both. I just thought she was trying to recoop 1/2 of the money she put into him. If I was in her situation I probably couldnt throw that much money out the window in 5 weeks. She is young and made a bad decision. Maybe I did the same. I have learned my lesson.


Mindi, I am happy that little Oliver is with your family now. Clearly a better home for him. And I know you don't get the connection about paying for him. But this girl really should have relinquished him to a rescue if she couldn't care for him. But he is where he is and that is a good thing.




kd1212 said:


> I get what you say about ethical breeders, but you are still judging this particular breeder without knowing anything about him or her. I don't think that's right. The same thing happened to me here and I was scared to death that I'd have a sick dog-just because she wasn't a "known" breeder on the list. I contacted my Vet and had sleepless nights before I brought him home and before the breeder brought him to his first doctor's appointment. It made the experience stressful. Tyler is gorgeous, happy and healthy. Thank God I didn't fully listen to what was said.
> 
> And in a sense, rehoming is rescuing.
> 
> Instead of judging and making her feel bad and questioning her decision as wrong, we should be congratulating and supporting her decision to provide a loving home and contributing to her and her family's excitement.


Kim, I'm not sure which breeder you are trying to defend here. The breeder of this speicifc pup has sold puppies at 5 weeks of age, sent a puppy out with coccidia and only gives a 48 hour health guarantee. I'm not sure how much more you would need to hear to be convinced that this is not an ethical breeder. We were not trying to shame Mindi, but to caution her to the risks associated with this situation (dog selling on FB, puppy mill dogs ect.) What's done is done and I hope Oliver has a long and happy life. And to address your other comment, re-homing is *not* rescue. To review:
*What is a Rescue?*
Breed Rescues are groups of people that specialize in rescuing one breed of dog. They are especially knowledgeable about their chosen breed and care about their welfare. The dogs are often taken from public or private shelters. They may have been picked up as a stray by animal control or turned in by their owners. People give up their pets for many good and not so good reasons. Rescue also takes dogs directly from their owners when the owner can no longer keep the dog. When an owner dies, the family may turn the dog over to rescue for placement. There are many ways a dog may find his way into rescue.

Dogs that find their way to rescue are spayed or neutered before placement so they cannot be used for breeding purposes in the future. They are vetted, have dentals, vaccines, grooming and temperament evaluations. Sometimes serious medical issues are addressed. 

Rescue workers and Fosters try to find out as much as information as possible about a dog to help find him/her the perfect forever home. New potential owners are checked and home visits are completed to ensure the dog has the best possible chance of never finding its way to a shelter or rescue again.

If you choose a dog from a rescue organization you are truly saving a life and curtailing the profits of the BYB’s, puppy mills and brokers that make their money on the backs of dogs.

*What is NOT a rescue?* 
1. Buying from a Pet Store, even if the dog seems to be in terrible shape and you think it needs saving. 

2. Buying from a BYB that has sick or unwanted dogs. 

3. Finding an unwanted dog on Craigslist or FaceBook. 

4. If someone is making a profit, it is not a rescue.

Your kind-hearted gesture of purchasing a puppy is seen by the store or breeder as a demand for that breed. Without intending to do so, you’ve helped keep another commercial breeder, broker and pet store in business. If you want to help puppies and dogs, head to your local shelter or contact a non-profit rescue that has 501(c)3 status to adopt a dog in need.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I find it interesting that in your original posting you asked for advice but stated "I really want this baby." When you got advice that went against what you wanted you proceeded to go ahead with the "transaction" eventhough you were advised clearly & repeated against it. Your actions demonstrate that "wanting this baby" was more important to you than anything else. From what you wrote I am assuming you did pay some amount to the "greeder." So even if your actions were clear in your own mind you became part of the exploitation of puppy mill dogs. 
If anyone thinks these are unkind words I would call that "transference of blame."
All of us wish you all the very, very best with little Oliver----it is just heart-breaking to not be able to get through to the head when the heart is so involved. You are not the first person to have bought into this kind of thinking. . . I only wish you were the last.:wub:


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

I'm not insulted at all, I just feel bad that what should have been a congratulatory thread turned into what it did--as did with my own situation. And, by the way, my guy is AKC and I was judged by the breeder I chose and told she was backyard, which she certainly is not. As I said, just because a breeder is not on the "list" does not mean that the breeder doesn't follow high standards. For me, it was really not a pleasant experience. No one should have an unpleasant experience during such an exciting time.

I merely disagree with the tactics of judging a breeder that people know nothing about. How can one say the person is unethical if they have no information on the breeder? Simply because the name is not familiar? How can you judge the quality of the breeder by the price he/she charges? Even if they use CKC, it does not necessarily mean they are backyard breeders and don't set high standards.

Interestingly, there are plenty of AKC breeders and breeders that are top breeders whose dogs are not healthy because of genetics and inbreeding. We often do not hear about this as it is kept hush hush. Genetic issues are just as common in the show breeding world as they are anyplace else, so who really is to judge what's right and wrong here?

I think it's fine to share your thoughts and opinions, but to make someone worry or feel bad about her adoption is just wrong. As I said, instead of freaking her out, congratulate and share in her excitement.


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## Mindi's mom (Aug 24, 2010)

kd1212 said:


> I think it's fine to share your thoughts and opinions, but to make someone worry or feel bad about her adoption is just wrong. As I said, instead of freaking her out, congratulate and share in her excitement.


Thanks for being on my side. I am under a lot of stress. I am bipolar, with anxiety, insomnia and adhd. I just lost insurance this month. I had to go off all my meds cold turkey. I am having quite a time with mood and emotions. I cry and scream all day. My panic attacks are back in full swing. I thought this was going to be something happy and good. Something rewarding. I havent seen my daughter smile this much in a very long time. Oliver makes me laugh with his puppy antics. He is barking and chasing cats having the time of his life. Even though he took a huge poop in the front seat of my car this morning (which still made me laugh). I needed him just as much as he needed me. I have been scolded, I understand what has been said but I dont need anymore stress right now. Im in tears as I write this. Clearly what I did was wrong, I hear you guys loud and clear. But Oliver is here and I love him already. I dont even know what else to say, Im speechless.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

Mindi's mom said:


> Thanks for being on my side. I am under a lot of stress. I am bipolar, with anxiety, insomnia and adhd. I just lost insurance this month. I had to go off all my meds cold turkey. I am having quite a time with mood and emotions. I cry and scream all day. My panic attacks are back in full swing. I thought this was going to be something happy and good. Something rewarding. I havent seen my daughter smile this much in a very long time. Oliver makes me laugh with his puppy antics. He is barking and chasing cats having the time of his life. Even though he took a huge poop in the front seat of my car this morning (which still made me laugh). I needed him just as much as he needed me. I have been scolded, I understand what has been said but I dont need anymore stress right now. Im in tears as I write this. Clearly what I did was wrong, I hear you guys loud and clear. But Oliver is here and I love him already. I dont even know what else to say, Im speechless.


Camille, you have done nothing wrong. What you need to do is enjoy your beautiful daughter and Oliver right now and be healthy and happy. That is what's important~not others opinions...they are not paying your bills nor know your personal situation. Happy holidays to you!


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Camille:

I'm so sorry that your are going through what you are going through mentally and emotionally. I understand completely that our little guys save us as much as we save them--they are very therapeutic.

Please know that you did absolutely nothing wrong and did not make the wrong choice or decision. This is exactly what I meant in my other posts. This is an exciting time and no one should make you feel as if you made a mistake and bring down your happiness--please don't let them. Remember that what people say are just opinions, they are not facts. I did research too--trust me, plenty of it. 

You've brought a healthy and adorable little guy into your home and lives. He's going to give you great joy, lift your spirits, and be there for you. AKC or CKC, $400 or $5000--does that really matter? No it most certainly does not. Don't even think about this--just concentrate on loving him! 

xo
Kim


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

I normally do not get involved with issues like this, but please, please lets try and understand the good in which Camille did by taking the step in which she decided to take Oliver and leave it at that. Is sounds as though Oliver will certainly be loved and well cared for and will much happiness to the family.


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

Normally I would keep my mouth shut in situations like this so I don't get in trouble but honestly, I think seeing how this innocent little fluff was being sold on a yardsale website, we should just all be thankful that he went to a loving home instead of some evil sadistic individual. All dogs deserve to be loved no matter where they came from because love is what's important.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

My sentiments exactly!



Snuggle's Mom said:


> I normally do not get involved with issues like this, but please, please lets try and understand the good in which Camille did by taking the step in which she decided to take Oliver and leave it at that. Is sounds as though Oliver will certainly be loved and well cared for and will much happiness to the family.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

You will forgive me if I am an analytical person. It does not mean that I am "heartless" or uncaring. It simply means that I argue from an analytical viewpoint. According to some of your definitions of right & wrong then some "unethical" practices can be redefined according to situations. If love (or even need) was the qualifer here then we could all go out & let animals who are being exploited by greeders out of their cages to live free & happy lives & such would be ok. 
To me, if something is wrong it is wrong regardless of love's intent. What I find uncomfortable about this situation is that others will be encouraged by these comments to buy from "greeders" in order to "rescue" such animals, and misery will be overlooked in the name of love.
I do understand that Camille now has this pup and it is a moot discussion. I certainly wish little Oliver a long & happy life with the new family, but I will go to my death fighting greeders.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Spoiled Maltese (SM) is THE premier dog forum representing the Maltese breed. Established in 2003, SM is a comprehensive on-line breed-specific forum for sharing advice, information and education on all things Maltese. We are a diverse group of individuals who are passionately dedicated to the betterment and love of the Maltese breed at every stage of life. We support responsible ownership practices including neuter and spay of non-show dogs and ethical breeding/breeder practices. We are strongly committed to supporting rescue.
*We do not condone backyard breeders, puppy mills or the retail sale of animals, and those who, despite understanding the negative outcome of such, continue to engage in those activities.*
We welcome anyone with a passion and love of dogs, regardless of your dog's breed or origin!


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

I will resume my thoughts with this image.


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Ok, SUPER confused here gang. Are you saying that rehoming a dog who needs a home is a bad thing? She didn't buy a dog from a puppy mill-I think we all agree NO to puppy mills, she purchased a dog from a pet home who could not longer keep it.

:blink:

I once saw a little female maltese advertised locally from a home that could no longer keep her she was listed for $400, she was a couple of years old and so darling. I seriously thought about it but we were not in a position at the time to take another pup-if we were though, I bet I would have gone for it.

So if people can't keep dogs do you not expect them to charge a rehoming fee? I would expect that if they wanted to make sure they were going to a good home a rehoming fee would be part of the exchange? 

So the only place a person can ever get a dog is a rescue, shelter or a show breeder? No other alternatives at all? You don't ever think they can go from one home to another? 

Am I misunderstanding this?


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

shellbeme said:


> Ok, SUPER confused here gang. Are you saying that rehoming a dog who needs a home is a bad thing? She didn't buy a dog from a puppy mill-I think we all agree NO to puppy mills, she purchased a dog from a pet home who could not longer keep it.
> 
> :blink:
> 
> ...


I think this issue is getting confused. Perhaps I can try to work through the weeds and the different opinions. 

The original Poster who adopted Oliver saw a post on FB about a dog that needed to be rehomed and acted on it. 

Many of us would have (and in some cases did) encourage her to exercise exteme caution because so many of these rehoming stories on FB are bogus and often there are hidden factors involved. I would say the percentage of true rehoming stories versus scam ones is pretty heavily weighted in the favor of the scammers. 

The original poster though believes she has been told the truth. And if this is the case then she has not directly supported a Greeder. So we should all let it be and encourage her to enjoy her new puppy and keep coming here for advice. We cannot know otherwise. 

It is true though, that instead of working with these potential scammers on FB and Craig's list we should encourage people to work through legitimate rescues and breeders. We should also encourage folks who wish to rehome their pets, to work with legitimate rescues as they have much better safegaurds in place for the dogs and the adopters than these types of deals usually provide. 

The other issue that has come up here is that some seem to be defending the practices of BYB, and unethical breeders and saying we cannot determine the ethics of a breeder who uses Continental Kennel Club as a registry. This is simply not true. ANY breeder who uses Continental Kennel Club as a registry is using a registry that is completely useless in determining anything about the parentage of puppies. Therefore, they are essentially displaying unethical business practices by providing "papers" that prove nothing. I would say this smacks of a type of fraudulent representation of their breeding program. Therefore, it is absolutely true that they fail the ethics test. The fact that this particular breeder fails it in many other ways is no particular surprise.

I feel people should all take a step back from this thread and look at it again without the emotions involved and see that everyone who came here did so with love and concern for our beloved breed. Read and learn from what was posted here and hope that in the end Oliver is in a great place now, and hope that we can encourage everyone to consider carefully the best way to make sure that the other Olivers out there, and their parents are protected to the best of our ability to educate and share.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

"We welcome anyone with a passion and love of dogs, regardless of your dog's breed or origin" Isn't this contradictory?

Is bullying acceptable on this site? Because bringing someone to tears and continuing the harassment is a form of bullying to me! 

Like Shelly said, this was a rehomed dog--you have no clue, no proof, no facts that the dog was born in a puppy mill or from a backyard breeder.

Please, give it a rest already.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

kd1212 said:


> "We welcome anyone with a passion and love of dogs, regardless of your dog's breed or origin" Isn't this contradictory?
> 
> Is bullying acceptable on this site? Because bringing someone to tears and continuing the harassment is a form of bullying to me!
> 
> ...


Kim, there is plenty of evidence that this puppy did originally come from an unethical breeder. Repeatedly, you have dismissed the evidence provided of that. 

I do not believe anyone here has bullied anyone. The opinions here are strong, and in some cases perhaps uncomfortably so, but if you come here and ask for opinions, you should not say that the opinions you get are a form of bullying when you came to solicit those very opinions. Is it only ok to post if you agree with someone? That would make this forum useless. Discussion takes many forms. 

I do not see any contradiction of the welcome statement. Everyone is welcome here no matter the origin of their dog, but that does not mean that we endorse without question all avenues one may find to acquire their dogs. The second part of the mission statement makes that clear. You can come here and share no matter where your dog came from, but if you encourage others to go to unethical breeders or brokers or scammers you can expect that there will be many here who will speak up about the necessity to avoid such avenues and who will promote the benefits of buying from reputable breeders and going to legitimate rescues. 

I fostered dogs who came out of the mills. Those dogs and what they suffered has made me passionate about trying to protect our beloved breed from living in such conditions. The reason those mills still produce puppies is because so many support them and sadly facebook and craig's list have given those mills new avenues to market their puppies.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who continues to fight the good fight. It gets exhausting to write the same stuff over and over again which is why I have stayed away from this thread. 

So thank you to Maggie, Pam, Beatriz, Carina and anyone else I might have missed for not being lazy and doing the right thing.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

What evidence are you referring to? No one was able to find information on the breeder. The fact that the dog is CKC defines proof? My breeder was trashed too--no one knew her either. That doesn't mean they are unethical.

Look up the definition of harassment and bullying. Have you read Camille's post?

Give it a rest already--this is ridiculous. I think we all know your opinions and trashing someone without proof is wrong--plain and simple. I'm done with this--leave Camille alone. End this already.



CloudClan said:


> Kim, there is plenty of evidence that this puppy did originally come from an unethical breeder. Repeatedly, you have dismissed the evidence provided of that.
> 
> I do not believe anyone here has bullied anyone. The opinions here are strong, and in some cases perhaps uncomfortably so, but if you come here and ask for opinions, you should not say that the opinions you get are a form of bullying when you came to solicit those very opinions. Is it only ok to post if you agree with someone? That would make this forum useless. Discussion takes many forms.
> 
> ...


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

When there is money involved, there are two places a dog should be coming from - a rescue or a reputable show breeder. That's it. 
If a dog is being rehomed from home to home, there should be no money exchanged. That is still supporting BYB's and mills in my opinion.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Kim, The CKC registry is a bogus registry. It means nothing, so yes this is one fact presented. You have no proof of anything when you provide those papers as I have repeatedly stated. 

*But the biggest and most important proof that this breeder is unethical is that EVERY ethical breeder requires that a puppy be returned to them, and has it as a clause in the contract. *

Then of course there are is the information that Pam found about this breeder selling puppies at 5 weeks and sick ones at that. 

I saw Camille's post. Her reaction to the difficulties going on in her life right now do not appear to me to be a result of anything anyone here has done, clearly there are other factors. I think your description of the good and caring individuals on this forum as bullies is highly inflamatory and disturbing. It is name calling. It is unfair to these women who came here to offer their concerns. 

If you have read my posts, I do say that it is time to move on from the discussion of where Oliver came from and hope he and his new family do well together. But this forum is dedicated to educating about the hazards of buying from unethical sources. It seems to me you are the one who has kept the argument going by continuing to ask how we know this breeder was unethical and continuing to state that we have no proof. There is plenty of proof if you do not dismiss it out of hand.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

kd1212 said:


> What evidence are you referring to? No one was able to find information on the breeder. The fact that the dog is CKC defines proof? My breeder was trashed too--no one knew her either. That doesn't mean they are unethical.
> 
> Look up the definition of harassment and bullying. Have you read Camille's post?
> 
> Give it a rest already--this is ridiculous. I think we all know your opinions and trashing someone without proof is wrong--plain and simple. I'm done with this--leave Camille alone. End this already.


Kim,

We are debating with you, no one is bullying anyone here, that is what adults do, we should be able to speak up our mind learning from each other. 

One of the missions we have here as a group is to FIGHT unethical breeders, one may like to think otherwise but we will still do it because the animals are the ones suffering the consequences of our decisions.

The first proof of the breeder being unethical is there the first owner couldn't give the puppy back to the breeder, which is something you will have on a contract when buying from a reputable one. If by any reason or at anytime life fails me and I can no longer take care of Benjamin and Elena, they will go right back to Stacy from Bellarata Maltese with no questions asked.

It is important for us as a group to clarify these situations so other people do not make the same mistakes that many of us, including myself, have made.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Per Camille's post:



Mindi's mom said:


> I have been scolded, I understand what has been said but I dont need anymore stress right now. Im in tears as I write this. Clearly what I did was wrong, I hear you guys loud and clear. But Oliver is here and I love him already. I dont even know what else to say, Im speechless.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

kd1212 said:


> Per Camille's post:


Yes, Camille is aware of what happened and I wish her and her puppy nothing but the best. I replied to you about asking for evidence of the breeder being unethical.


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Thank you Carina for explaining that, I really didn't understand what was going on. I agree with you all that we need to fight against puppy mills-I also agree with our forum statement.

There are some things that I don't understand though. 

To me, it is common sense-maybe I'm wrong though-that 99% of the dogs out there come from puppy mills or what one might consider a BYB. I don't understand, how, after the initial purchase, when these dogs are in their first homes-they are not eligible for adoption to a new home-but they are eligible to be given to a shelter or rescue where they can then go to a new home. 

Why is it ok to adopt them from a shelter or rescue but not from a home? Money exchanges hands either way. I find it frustrating that some think the only way is shelter or rescue-as if she shelter or rescue somehow purifies them and makes them more qualified for adoption? It's the same dog..so I don't understand why one way is ok but not another. If rescue or shelter was the only way to go, we would have even more dogs with no homes-people who don't want dogs don't want to take the time and don't want to face up to having to turn the dog in.

So is your issue really with the adopting family, or is it with the person giving the pup up? Or is it with the Breeder? To me, it sounds like the frustrations are misplaced. Though I don't think anyone intended, negativity has been directed towards Camille since this is her thread.

So if we avoided giving homes to dogs that were products of puppymills-then all the poor dogs out there would be out of luck  So I don't understand the reaction of several of the posters in this thread. I just don't get it. We are not looking at the big picture-we are looking at a tiny snippit. If Camille bought the puppy from a puppy mill, I could understand, but this, I just do not.

P.S. Even I have done it in this thread but I think 'rescue' is what the rescue workers do, 'adoption' is what you do when you get a pet from a shelter. Rescue (the word) is overused in reference to adopting dogs.


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## jane and addison (Nov 1, 2012)

I have tried to stay out of this thread but let me tell you about Ohio. We now have a new puppy mill law, weak as it is. The law makers want to water it down. Fact 70% is all puppy mills in Ohio are in Holmes, Coshocton and Tuacarawas counties. 1200 licensed kennels. 400 licensed breeders in Holmes county alone. Only 24 in the county that Cleveland is in. Why this is the heart of Amish country in Ohio. Pennsylvania probable has the same problem. Until you can shut down these breeders you can not solve the problem. End of rant.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

shellbeme said:


> Thank you Carina for explaining that, I really didn't understand what was going on. I agree with you all that we need to fight against puppy mills-I also agree with our forum statement.
> 
> There are some things that I don't understand though.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Shelly, this is what I think about the subject. And I want to STRONGLY clarify that I am not referring to the OP here, just answering your question. 

1. This casual buying and selling of dogs makes them a commodity. Want a dog? Just go to the mall and pick one up. Got bored? Sell them on Facebook. Getting a dog from a rescue has nothing to do with the dog themselves. Of course it's the same dog, but now you're not being a part of the problem by encouraging the puppy mill economy (even indirectly). 

2. A rescue org can do thorough checks of a new owner, will spay or neuter the dog, make sure the new owner is a good fit etc which very likely won't happen in an owner to owner transaction. So now there's a possibility that the new owner ends up breeding the dog etc., which again continues the cycle. 

3. What are the chances this new home will be a permanent home? That's another thing a rescue will try to ensure. What if the dog gets sick or has an illness the new owner wasn't informed about? In the case of a rescue they are required to inform you of all problems, even things like "doesn't get along with kids" etc. 

Overall, goes back to my first point. As long as it remains easy as a $400 transaction to buy or sell dogs, it will keep happening.


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## Chardy (Oct 30, 2008)

eiksaa said:


> Shelly, this is what I think about the subject. And I want to STRONGLY clarify that I am not referring to the OP here, just answering your question.
> 
> 1. This casual buying and selling of dogs makes them a commodity. Want a dog? Just go to the mall and pick one up. Got bored? Sell them on Facebook. Getting a dog from a rescue has nothing to do with the dog themselves. Of course it's the same dog, but now you're not being a part of the problem by encouraging the puppy mill economy (even indirectly).
> 
> ...




BINGO!:ThankYou::goodpost:


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

I honestly and truly think that we should finally "put this to bed". And, unfortunately, we also most likely lost Camille as well who came here to share the news regarding Oliver.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Shelly, This is very much in tune with how I've been feeling about this thread and have felt that someone should defend poor Camille who has become the punching bag. 

I agree, too, that the puppy mill situation is one that needs to be stopped. I think the other thing that needs to be addressed is putting so much emphasis on the AKC brand and the popular list of show breeders and discounting all others and considering them backyard breeders--not necessarily the case--as in my situation. 

In regards to the dogs themselves, like orphans, these poor little puppies, adult, and senior dogs, at no fault of their own need homes. Breeders are in it for a profit, rescue organizations take donations as payment to keep their organizations running, and people who rehome just want to get some of their money back. Whether this person re-homed on her own or brought the dog to a shelter makes no difference. Quite frankly, why shouldn't she get some of her money back.

Just because the rules of this breeder do not include a refund does not mean that it is a puppy mill. These are assumptions. I'm not perfect and maybe it has to do with my line of work, but I do not rule on assumptions, I rule based on concrete facts. Without them, I do not think it is appropriate to judge, assume or in this case trash. And as I said, does it really matter where the dog is from in the end? Not really--no one is supporting a puppy mill or a backyard breeder. All that is going on, all that matters in these types of situations is that a dog is being provided with a home. Someone purchased a dog, could no longer care for him, posted an ad to rehome, someone offered to provide a loving home, dog is now in a happy, loving home where he will be well provided for--end of story.

The negativity and yes, I do say, bullying that Camille has endured is absolutely deplorable. This is the very reason that I have continued to hold my ground on this issue and defend her. 



shellbeme said:


> Thank you Carina for explaining that, I really didn't understand what was going on. I agree with you all that we need to fight against puppy mills-I also agree with our forum statement.
> 
> There are some things that I don't understand though.
> 
> ...


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

Snuggle's Mom said:


> I honestly and truly think that we should finally "put this to bed". And, unfortunately, we also most likely lost Camille as well who came here to share the news regarding Oliver.


Camille came here asking about the breeder from a puppy that was being rehomed on a yardsale website for $350. Those are her words, no one is making that up. She then decided that it was a good idea and we are all trying to explain how does this buying and selling works. As much as I wish and hope her puppy will be nothing but awesome you can't expect me to say that I am happy for her decision. We must speak up so this perpetual cycle might have an end, sooner or later, we can't pretend this is okay for the sake of ALL animals, not only the cute puppy finding a new home. 



Mindi's mom said:


> Someone is rehoming a 15 week old male maltese. Her children are too rough. He came from Kangs Farms social circle ga shih Tzu and Maltese breeders Does anyone have any information on them good or bad. She is posting this dog on a yardsale website. I would love to save him but want to know what Im getting into. He is up to date on shots and has not been fixed yet. She is asking $350. I really want this baby.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

kd1212 said:


> The negativity and yes, I do say, bullying that Camille has endured is absolutely deplorable. This is the very reason that I have continued to hold my ground on this issue and defend her.


There was no bullying on this thread. Just a discussion, advice given, and facts told. Bullying is a very serious issue, and this was not it.


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

So, I want to thank everyone for their responses in helping me fully understand your points of view. I'm going to ramble a bit, and this post is not for any one particular person (even though I mention Aastha  ) 

I can see both sides of the coin.

I still think adopting dogs from a home environment is alright. I also think, Aastha that you made some very powerful points in your post and I do agree with them. 

Most of all what hit me is, you are right, these babies are more than a commodity to trade for a few bucks (or a few hundred and so on). Heck, I see some people offering to trade electronics for dogs  I understand that you don't want to support the idea that these living breathing beings are worth so little.

Like I said, I even agree-but...my world (and I only mean that by my experiences and the people I'm around and life through my eyes) ..is still somewhat primitive. People do not give these pups as much credit as they deserve. I wish society was at the point that I could feel alright to take a stand against everything except Show Breeders, Rescues, and Shelters-but I can not. I am fine with people adopting dogs that need new homes from other homes using things like craigs list, the paper, adds on facebook. 

I have learned in my time on SM that most often, when I think someone is being picked on-it's all actually coming from a really decent place. What does that mean?  It means when you start asking questions-in a thoughtful, non condescending way-you start to find out that the passionate people here really DO care and are not trying to bash you. Instead of getting offended, lets try to ask more questions and understand where each other are coming from. 

I realize that is difficult to understand when you are a newer poster. Camille I hope you are still around and I hope you stay. I believe some may have thought that perhaps this was not the best time for you to add another fluff to your family. Perhaps that is not right to do but all that we know is what you present us with.

I would like you to enjoy your new puppy and take things one day at a time. I also struggle with anxiety and hugging my Tuckerbean always makes me feel better  Last night I even had a good cry into his neck, he didn't mind. Please don't take the comments in this thread to heart and I hope you stay and continue to share your stories with us about your pups.

Personally, I don't think anyone in this thread is wrong. People are honestly just posting what they think and feel is right.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Dominic said:


> Camille came here asking about the breeder from a puppy that was being rehomed on a yardsale website for $350. Those are her words, no one is making that up. She then decided that it was a good idea and we are all trying to explain how does this buying and selling works. As much as I wish and hope her puppy will be nothing but awesome you can't expect me to say that I am happy for her decision. We must speak up so this perpetual cycle might have an end, sooner or later, we can't pretend this is okay for the sake of ALL animals, not only the cute puppy finding a new home.


:goodpost:

Thank you!


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

kd1212 said:


> Shelly, This is very much in tune with how I've been feeling about this thread and have felt that someone should defend poor Camille who has become the punching bag.
> 
> I agree, too, that the puppy mill situation is one that needs to be stopped. I think the o*ther thing that needs to be addressed is putting so much emphasis on the AKC brand and the popular list of show breeders and discounting all others and considering them backyard breeders--not necessarily the case--as in my situation. *
> 
> ...


:beating a dead hors

It is actually you Kim that has caused most of the vitriol here and not the situation with the OP. We have all repeatedly said, what's done is done, and wished her well with her new puppy. You are the one that has come back repeatedly to deny the FACTS about this breeder and try to defend BYB's and the CKC. You are not absorbing the facts. I'm really not too sure what your motives here are, but I don't think it has a lot to do with the OP and maybe about justifying your own situation.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

One thing that I feel might be overlooked here is that in today's tech world it is easy to pass a dog off as being from a "breeder" but actually comes through a broker & most especially over FB. There are some very advanced FB "breeder sites" that I personally have researched & know they are brokers. It would sometimes take a full time dective to know that these sites are bogus.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

shellbeme said:


> Thank you Carina for explaining that, I really didn't understand what was going on. I agree with you all that we need to fight against puppy mills-I also agree with our forum statement.
> 
> There are some things that I don't understand though.
> 
> ...


I have volunteered with rescue as a foster, as a person who does the home checks, I have evaluated applications to rescues. Rescue groups have a better system for safe-guarding the dogs than individuals who have never had the experience of rehoming puppies. So this is the reason why working through a reputable rescue if you have to give up your dogs is important. The safeguards for you and for your dog are much stronger. This does not mean your dog has to go into foster care first, but rather that you work with people who have learned how to place dogs with care instead of going out and seeking someone random from a facebook post. When someone must rehome a dog, asking to get their money back (or even part of their money back) makes them less likely to pay attention to the finer details about who is getting that dog/puppy. If you are truly in a desperate situation where you need to rehome your dog, you should be working in the dog's best interest, not those of your pocketbook. 

For the person seeking a puppy, the best places to look are a reputable rescue or breeder because the rescue and the breeder are there to support and encourage appropriate pet ownership. They will evaluate if this dog/puppy is the best fit for you. Also, and I will say this again, Craig's list and FB are FULL of scams. It is very difficult to see through these scams, so I would encourage folks to be very cautious if they get puppy fever from this situation. 

Is it ALWAYS wrong to do it this way? Well, the situation might work out for the puppy and for the buyer, but it certainly has many more inherent risks than going through rescue or a reputable breeder. 



eiksaa said:


> Shelly, this is what I think about the subject. And I want to STRONGLY clarify that I am not referring to the OP here, just answering your question.
> 
> 1. This casual buying and selling of dogs makes them a commodity. Want a dog? Just go to the mall and pick one up. Got bored? Sell them on Facebook. Getting a dog from a rescue has nothing to do with the dog themselves. Of course it's the same dog, but now you're not being a part of the problem by encouraging the puppy mill economy (even indirectly).
> 
> ...


:goodpost:



kd1212 said:


> Shelly, This is very much in tune with how I've been feeling about this thread and have felt that someone should defend poor Camille who has become the punching bag.
> 
> I agree, too, that the puppy mill situation is one that needs to be stopped. I think the other thing that needs to be addressed is putting so much emphasis on the AKC brand and the popular list of show breeders and discounting all others and considering them backyard breeders--not necessarily the case--as in my situation.
> 
> ...


You say you do not make assumptions, but you make one right here. Breeders are in it for the profit??? Back yard breeders are in it for the profit, puppymill breeders are in it for the profit, but the vast majority of show breeders I know do not do this for profit at all. I certainly spend FAR more money on my dogs than I can ever imagine making back when someone purchases a puppy. 

The reason that individuals should not be trying to profit when they need to rehome their puppies is that money goes straight into their pocket and does not help the dogs. Rescue groups use funds to pay for supporting the rescues. Reputable show breeders put the money they are paid back into their breeding programs. People who post on FB or on Craig's list sell their puppies to get MONEY for themselves. It isn't doing a thing to help the dogs. 

You say you are here to help Camille and yet the reason this thread continues is because you keep coming into it to defend a breeder that Camille admits was shady. 

You have also attacked others for expressing themselves by calling their behavior bullying. This is where the thread has gone "ridiculous." I read through the whole thread again and the major issue that has become so heated has been your defense of the unethical breeder. 




pammy4501 said:


> :beating a dead hors
> 
> It is actually you Kim that has caused most of the vitriol here and not the situation with the OP. We have all repeatedly said, what's done is done, and wished her well with her new puppy. You are the one that has come back repeatedly to deny the FACTS about this breeder and try to defend BYB's and the CKC. You are not absorbing the facts. I'm really not too sure what your motives here are, but I don't think it has a lot to do with the OP and maybe about justifying your own situation.


I have to agree. Reading over the majority of the thread I see nearly every point of contention is really over what Kim is trying to justify and defend, and yes it seems that it is more about her, than the OP. 

So I say again, Camille, please love and enjoy your puppy. I hope that though you did not go to a place most of us would recommend for your puppy, you are blessed with many happy and loving years together. Please come ask questions, join in to the discussions and share pictures of your beautiful family.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

For anyone who is interested:

Title goes here

And I have to say specifically to you Kim, I re-read your post when you were getting your new puppy, and you were not mistreated. As a matter of fact, you too were given very friendly and sound advice. And I might add I tried to share my story with you and provided you with a long list of good breeders in our area. You still made your own choice to stick with a BYB. But lets be really clear, you were never mistreated or shamed for that. You pointing fingers and calling people here bullies here is actually really hurtful.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I just wish that people would read our mission statement before joining. If you do not agree, then don't join. Time and time again a person will go against the beliefs stated in quite clearly in our mission statement and then argue it.

We do not condone backyard breeders, puppy mills or the retail sale of animals, and those who, despite understanding the negative outcome of such, continue to engage in those activities.

That is it. If you don't agree, then don't join, but don't come here to argue about it. And don't expect to be an exception. The only way we will ever stop the abuse of puppymills and backyard breeders to to stand firm in our convictions. Everyone who rationalizes that they are an exception only serves to keep the circle of abuse going. 

I am not addressing the OP or any one who commented. I am speaking in general, because this is one of many, many, too many such threads.

And because so many people have stood up to fight against those who use tender little dogs for profit, those people have found sneaky ways to sell their puppies. Those people make claims to be good breeders, but they also use brokers who are masters of disguise...sometimes presenting themselves as individuals needing to find a home for puppy....at a price.

Besides our members, besides those who have responded, almost two thousand people have read this thread. It is not about bullying the OP, it is about making our voice heard for those little dogs who are forced into repeated breeding under conditions no sweet soul should ever experience.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

[/quote] I have to agree. Reading over the majority of the thread I see nearly every point of contention is really over what Kim is trying to justify and defend, and yes it seems that it is more about her, than the OP. 

So I say again, Camille, please love and enjoy your puppy. I hope that though you did not go to a place most of us would recommend for your puppy, you are blessed with many happy and loving years together. Please come ask questions, join in to the discussions and share pictures of your beautiful family. [/quote]
:goodpost:


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