# The post about "Raven"



## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

Is it me or did the Raven post disappear? I can't seem to find it.


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

It's gone probably because I think it is against the rules to advertise available dogs.


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

Gotcha! Thanks! Thought I was losing my mind! lol


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## djackson59 (Sep 22, 2014)

Oh, I was wondering about it to


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

The latest exchange with my husband has been... Our bed is too small, my reply was I will get you a king size bed . LOL


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

LOL @ Mags! Well, I don't if you saw my message to you, but I said tell him it would be your Xmas present and your birthday present, as that's what I usually tell my husband and it works! Cause it makes it easy for him & he don't have to go shopping! LOL


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

mdbflorida said:


> The latest exchange with my husband has been... Our bed is too small, my reply was I will get you a king size bed . LOL


I was a goner when I saw the picture of Whitney:wub: I knew she had to be mine. I say get a king size bed.


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

LOL Trisha, I think it will take more bribing. Maybe if I get him new golf clubs then get him in the car, spike his coffee so he sleeps for 1.5 hours and drive him down there to see her!




Trisha said:


> LOL @ Mags! Well, I don't if you saw my message to you, but I said tell him it would be your Xmas present and your birthday present, as that's what I usually tell my husband and it works! Cause it makes it easy for him & he don't have to go shopping! LOL


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

:innocent:No surprise, I am amazed Raven lasted as long as it did, I REALLY miss the way we use to be, sometimes I feel like big brother is watching :innocent:



For those who missed seeing "Raven "well she is STUNNING :wub: and her breeder is the best. You can always pm MissMelanie she has her picture and can fill you in


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## sdubose (Feb 21, 2012)

Well dang, I was trying to pull up her pic to show my DH. Come on 's police....


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

sdubose said:


> Well dang, I was trying to pull up her pic to show my DH. Come on 's police....


pm MissMelanie she can pm you her picture.
I miss the way it use to be


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## sdubose (Feb 21, 2012)

Matilda's mommy said:


> pm MissMelanie she can pm you her picture.
> I miss the way it use to be



Thanks Paula, I kinda get why the rule applies. If some of those creep Puppy Mills, etc. thought they could advertise on this site it would be bad.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Matilda's mommy said:


> :innocent:*No surprise, I am amazed Raven lasted as long as it did, I REALLY miss the way we use to be, sometimes I feel like big brother is watching* :innocent:
> 
> 
> 
> For those who missed seeing "Raven "well she is STUNNING :wub: and her breeder is the best. You can always pm MissMelanie she has her picture and can fill you in


Me too. That's one reason some don't post anymore. I didn't see anything wrong with posting "Raven". After all she was not selling the dog and it was not the breeder who was offering it and I am sure the breeder was okay with posting the picture.


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

Well, I understand and appreciate rules. I do believe you would open it up to other advertisers/breeders or back yard breeders, etc. So, I'm glad there is what is called the "police". 

This is my opinion that I give respectfully, and I'm new so I'm sure it doesn't really matter to those who have been here longer.

But I do think it's giving biased comments on saying this one or that one is the "best breeder ever!" I think there are breeders on this site and I feel it's a slap in their face, but then again they know, so I'm sure they don't care & they obviously abide by the rules. So if they can't put their prospective puppies/dog pictures on here, no one else should be able to post pictures for some breeder they favor.

I got my dog from a breeder too that I & others highly respect, but I have never mentioned their name & wouldn't. Only to someone who PM'd me to ask me privately where I got her as soon as I joined. Probably just curiosity, as I never heard from that person again.

Hope I didn't offend anyone by my opinion. If I did, I apologize.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Janine I agree with you, I didn't see anything wrong with it, I think SM is about placing people with reputable breeders as well as us educating others about the Maltese breed.
To many people don't even know how to find a reputable breeder so they look in places like Craigslist, papers and pet stores, I really think SM needs to step up, we use to have many reputable breeders here, it was fun looking at their pictures of their show dogs and feeling apart of their achievement. Now we are lucky if we see a picture of a show dog let alone one of their puppies. We are fortunate to still have two on here.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Trisha said:


> Well, I understand and appreciate rules. I do believe you would open it up to other advertisers/breeders or back yard breeders, etc. So, I'm glad there is what is called the "police".
> 
> This is my opinion that I give respectfully, and I'm new so I'm sure it doesn't really matter to those who have been here longer.
> 
> ...


You do not offend me! I agree with you wholeheartedly. These rules have been put into place for very good reasons, most of which you voiced. We do educate people to find good breeders on this site, but the minute we start to refer to specific breeders and available pups we open a flood gate. I wish to actually thank the "police" that watch this site and take care of potential problems for us!



Matilda's mommy said:


> Janine I agree with you, I didn't see anything wrong with it, I think SM is about placing people with reputable breeders as well as us educating others about the Maltese breed.
> To many people don't even know how to find a reputable breeder so they look in places like Craigslist, papers and pet stores, I really think SM needs to step up, we use to have many reputable breeders here, it was fun looking at their pictures of their show dogs and feeling apart of their achievement. Now we are lucky if we see a picture of a show dog let alone one of their puppies. We are fortunate to still have two on here.


Paula with all due respect there is big difference between having show breeders post pictures of their accomplishments or even their new litter announcements. It is another thing all together to offer up available dogs. Once you open that door it is impossible to close it. We have already had problems on this site differentiating between some less than stellar breeders and home breeders and true ethical show breeders. We have had people angry when there is criticism of those who have "accidenty" bred their dogs. What if they were allowed to offer the puppies to the members here? What does that message say? All of these rules came about for very good reasons, and while it seems so harmless to show a gorgeous dog like Raven it sets a bad precedent.


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

Thank you Pammy 4501. I was not trying to offend & glad you didn't feel that way. It is my belief that rules have reasons that are in place to protect & promote fairness to everyone. I feel it's in the best interest to support and abide by them.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

pammy4501 said:


> You do not offend me! I agree with you wholeheartedly. These rules have been put into place for very good reasons, most of which you voiced. We do educate people to find good breeders on this site, but the minute we start to refer to specific breeders and available pups we open a flood gate. I wish to actually thank the "police" that watch this site and take care of potential problems for us!
> 
> 
> Paula with all due respect there is big difference between having show breeders post pictures of their accomplishments or even their new litter announcements. It is another thing all together to offer up available dogs. Once you open that door it is impossible to close it. We have already had problems on this site differentiating between some less than stellar breeders and home breeders and true ethical show breeders. We have had people angry when there is criticism of those who have "accidenty" bred their dogs. What if they were allowed to offer the puppies to the members here? What does that message say? All of these rules came about for very good reasons, and while it seems so harmless to show a gorgeous dog like Raven it sets a bad precedent.


Well Pam, we have to agree to disagree on this one. Not everything is black and white. Nobody wants puppy mills or backyard breeders or even show breeders advertising their dogs here. That post in question had nothing to do with a breeder wanting to sell her puppy. This dog was not even a puppy, it was a retired dog (if I am not mistaken) and posted by someone else who thought what a better place to find a loving home for this baby. People here post pictures all the time of dogs they see at Petfinders, why are they allowed to post them ? When people come here for information they are chastised not to buy from pet stores or backyard breeders. But when those same people ask where to go to buy from a reputable breeder they are lucky if someone gets the guts to give them some names. And then you wonder that those same people go and buy their dog from a pet store or backyard breeder. You cannot have it both ways. It's a lot easier to find a backyard breeder than a show breeder. People tend to go the easy way. SM is going from one extreme to the other. There is no middle ground anymore. And this is killing this forum slowly but surely. Most of the old ones with a lot of experience are not coming here anymore because of those "rules". And this is a big loss for the new ones who come here to get help.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

MalteseJane said:


> Well Pam, we have to agree to disagree on this one. Not everything is black and white. Nobody wants puppy mills or backyard breeders or even show breeders advertising their dogs here. That post in question had nothing to do with a breeder wanting to sell her puppy. This dog was not even a puppy, it was a retired dog (if I am not mistaken) and posted by someone else who thought what a better place to find a loving home for this baby. People here post pictures all the time of dogs they see at Petfinders, why are they allowed to post them ? When people come here for information they are chastised not to buy from pet stores or backyard breeders. But when those same people ask where to go to buy from a reputable breeder they are lucky if someone gets the guts to give them some names. And then you wonder that those same people go and buy their dog from a pet store or backyard breeder. You cannot have it both ways. It's a lot easier to find a backyard breeder than a show breeder. People tend to go the easy way. SM is going from one extreme to the other. There is no middle ground anymore. And this is killing this forum slowly but surely. Most of the old ones with a lot of experience are not coming here anymore because of those "rules". And this is a big loss for the new ones who come here to get help.


I don't get the logic here. It is against the rules to post about available dogs, but not against the rules to refer people to good breeders if someone comes asking. Why do you think it would need "guts" to do that? What are people scared of?


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

MalteseJane said:


> ...You cannot have it both ways. It's a lot easier to find a backyard breeder than a show breeder. People tend to go the easy way. SM is going from one extreme to the other. There is no middle ground anymore. And this is killing this forum slowly but surely. Most of the old ones with a lot of experience are not coming here anymore because of those "rules". And this is a big loss for the new ones who come here to get help.


 :aktion033: I completely agree.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

:goodpost:


MalteseJane said:


> Well Pam, we have to agree to disagree on this one. Not everything is black and white. Nobody wants puppy mills or backyard breeders or even show breeders advertising their dogs here. That post in question had nothing to do with a breeder wanting to sell her puppy. This dog was not even a puppy, it was a retired dog (if I am not mistaken) and posted by someone else who thought what a better place to find a loving home for this baby. People here post pictures all the time of dogs they see at Petfinders, why are they allowed to post them ? When people come here for information they are chastised not to buy from pet stores or backyard breeders. But when those same people ask where to go to buy from a reputable breeder they are lucky if someone gets the guts to give them some names. And then you wonder that those same people go and buy their dog from a pet store or backyard breeder. You cannot have it both ways. It's a lot easier to find a backyard breeder than a show breeder. People tend to go the easy way. SM is going from one extreme to the other. There is no middle ground anymore. And this is killing this forum slowly but surely. Most of the old ones with a lot of experience are not coming here anymore because of those "rules". And this is a big loss for the new ones who come here to get help.


 

:aktion033: well said


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

MalteseJane said:


> Well Pam, we have to agree to disagree on this one. Not everything is black and white. Nobody wants puppy mills or backyard breeders or even show breeders advertising their dogs here. That post in question had nothing to do with a breeder wanting to sell her puppy. This dog was not even a puppy, it was a retired dog (if I am not mistaken) and posted by someone else who thought what a better place to find a loving home for this baby. People here post pictures all the time of dogs they see at Petfinders, why are they allowed to post them ? When people come here for information they are chastised not to buy from pet stores or backyard breeders. But when those same people ask where to go to buy from a reputable breeder they are lucky if someone gets the guts to give them some names. And then you wonder that those same people go and buy their dog from a pet store or backyard breeder. You cannot have it both ways. It's a lot easier to find a backyard breeder than a show breeder. People tend to go the easy way. SM is going from one extreme to the other. There is no middle ground anymore. And this is killing this forum slowly but surely. Most of the old ones with a lot of experience are not coming here anymore because of those "rules". And this is a big loss for the new ones who come here to get help.


Yes you are mistaken Janine, this is not a retiree. She is a young dog that is for sale. Sorry if some of you feel that we should abandon our long standing rules of not advertising dogs for sale. But that is what this was. And for the record I have no problem with showing rescue dogs that are available for adoption. And for the record, did anyone ask this breeder if she wanted her dog posted here for sale? Well, I guess that doesn't matter either.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I can't remember why exactly this rule was put into place but didnt' it have something to do with members 'posting' for their favorite breeders? I think it resulted in specific breeders having a hefty waiting list because of SM members wanting puppies. 

If we can have a 'middle ground' again, i think it would be a great idea! But 'who' exactly would/should be able to post? I personally wouldn't want my puppies posted here but I think it should require breeder 'permission' otherwise it opens up even more of a issue. Maybe it can be links to a breeders site or FB page rather than posting the info directly here?

I don't think this needs to turn to into a fight of any kind, but maybe we can ask that this topic be revisited?


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

It's been a little while -- but I remember being asked to help put together a list of respected/reputable breeders as a sticky. Actually I think I was asked to help update the old list. Anyway , something came up and I never got to it.

I will start a thread in the Moderator Section to see if we can come up with a list that would be acceptable to all.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Lacie's Mom said:


> It's been a little while -- but I remember being asked to help put together a list of respected/reputable breeders as a sticky. Actually I think I was asked to help update the old list. Anyway , something came up and I never got to it.
> 
> I will start a thread in the Moderator Section to see if we can come up with a list that would be acceptable to all.




Thank you Lynn, I think we really need to have that list. I am getting pms if we had a list they could spend time checking out these reputable breeders who work so hard to keep the maltese standards.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Lacie's Mom said:


> It's been a little while -- but I remember being asked to help put together a list of respected/reputable breeders as a sticky. Actually I think I was asked to help update the old list. Anyway , something came up and I never got to it.
> 
> I will start a thread in the Moderator Section to see if we can come up with a list that would be acceptable to all.



Great idea! I always guide people to AMA list but if we have something here that would be great since the I can advertise the forum as well. Will it be different from the one on AMA?


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Paula -- I wrote to the other mods and will keep everyone posted on what they decide.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

eiksaa said:


> Great idea! I always guide people to AMA list but if we have something here that would be great since the I can advertise the forum as well. Will it be different from the one on AMA?


 Aastha -- the list is so old that it was actually put together by Joe many, many, many years ago. I think he primarily used the AMA Breeder Referral List with a handful of additions.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Once upon a time on SM it was within the rules for folks who saw a dog listed on a breeder website to share that dog for sale. We had a lot of those kind of posts. Many of us enjoyed those posts and it stoked our puppy fever or simply made us smile to see these sweet puppies. Most of the time it stayed within the SM mission as folks here picked out show breeder websites to share. In some cases it was a useful tool and I believe it even helped some folks find good breeders. One problem that came up was that breeders started encouraging their friends to come make announcements for them as you can imagine, this became a loophole version of advertising. It is sad that a few people ruined it, but that is often how things like this come to an end. 

I did not see the Raven post. I have seen her posted elsewhere though and yes she is stunning. I think whoever does become her forever family will be very lucky.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Matilda's mommy said:


> :innocent:No surprise, I am amazed Raven lasted as long as it did, I REALLY miss the way we use to be, sometimes I feel like big brother is watching :innocent:
> 
> 
> 
> For those who missed seeing "Raven "well she is STUNNING :wub: and her breeder is the best. You can always pm MissMelanie she has her picture and can fill you in


I totally agree Paula, I really miss those available posts. I think it also helps people to understand what a properly bred Maltese puppy and adult should look like. This is the breed, and the standard that we love. I feel people have left and gone to facebook partly for this kind of reason. 

Wonder how long this thread will stay around...

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> Once upon a time on SM it was within the rules for folks who saw a dog listed on a breeder website to share that dog for sale. We had a lot of those kind of posts. Many of us enjoyed those posts and it stoked our puppy fever or simply made us smile to see these sweet puppies. Most of the time it stayed within the SM mission as folks here picked out show breeder websites to share. In some cases it was a useful tool and I believe it even helped some folks find good breeders. One problem that came up was that breeders started encouraging their friends to come make announcements for them as you can imagine, this became a loophole version of advertising. It is sad that a few people ruined it, but that is often how things like this come to an end.
> 
> I did not see the Raven post. I have seen her posted elsewhere though and yes she is stunning. I think whoever does become her forever family will be very lucky.


Carina is correct - this is exactly what happened. Supposedly responsible breeders were having people join SM and then post that "So and So has the most beautiful puppies available" which is advertising the dogs for sale. So the rules were amended to not allow those types of posts. And for those who innocently posted pictures of breeders pups, we had complaints from the breeder who owned the pups. 

What IS allowed is pointing people who ask to specific breeders, lists of breeders, qualifications for breeders, how to select a breeder, etc. 

As for rescues, that is a totally different matter. Rescue (as well as responsible show breeding) is actively supported by SM; these animals aren't for sale - these animals are in need of a good home. Any adoption fee associated with a rescue is less than the cost of a puppy and doesn't even begin to cover the rescue's costs of addressing any health issues the dog may have.


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

I do like the idea of a recommended list but I also understand what Maggie is saying is there always ways around the rules and people who are versed in Marketing will figure it out! I had once asked Maggie about this and I think she recommended doing what some people do:
Identify the breeder your puppy comes from in your profile or signature? Maggie correct me if I am wrong. I do know that it would have been nice to know about all the reputable breeders when I was looking. 

Too bad it can't be something like Angle's List and you can actually post reviews


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

It is weird that even though we are not "advertising" a puppy for sale, because of "other" breeders on this site they don't like it so it is not allowed. You would thing all breeders would be greatful if the word got out that they had a dog for a nice pet home.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

mdbflorida said:


> I do like the idea of a recommended list but I also understand what Maggie is saying is there always ways around the rules and people who are versed in Marketing will figure it out! I had once asked Maggie about this and I think she recommended doing what some people do:
> Identify the breeder your puppy comes from in your profile or signature? Maggie correct me if I am wrong. I do know that it would have been nice to know about all the reputable breeders when I was looking.
> 
> Too bad it can't be something like Angle's List and you can actually post reviews


You can PM and ask about a breeder. I remember back about 5 years ago a particular breeder was being recommend by many plus a moderator. Negative posts were removed and some are still gone. It was not fair if you were looking for a puppy and did not get both sides. Several members were very unhappy with their pups. If they had a bad experience with that breeder all heck broke loose sadly.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

sassy's mommy said:


> It is weird that even though we are not "advertising" a puppy for sale, because of "other" breeders on this site they don't like it so it is not allowed. You would thing all breeders would be greatful if the word got out that they had a dog for a nice pet home.



How is it not advertising? By definition - describe or draw attention to (a product, service, or event) in a public medium in order to promote sales or attendance. I'd say that posting about an available puppy sounds pretty close to that. 

From what I've seen, there's more demand than supply if a breeder is actually reputable. I really don't think they should even need to be advertised here to place a dog.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

elly said:


> You can PM and ask about a breeder. I remember back about 5 years ago a particular breeder was being recommend by many plus a moderator. Negative posts were removed and some are still gone. It was not fair if you were looking for a puppy and did not get both sides. Several members were very unhappy with their pups. If they had a bad experience with that breeder all heck broke loose sadly.


Yes, this is true, and I got fully caught in it myself with a bad experience  But I still miss seeing the little ones on here. I mostly remember that pictures were mainly posted, directing to breeder web sites that already had the pictures posted, so in the public domain, but I wasn't behind the scenes and don't know all the hassle that was involved with others that were posted. Not sure you can successfully sue a forum for negative reviews though, but wouldn't be fun getting threatened. There are tons of pro and against review sites on the web. Amazon the biggest. It is a very useful service. Maybe harder with live animals involved though, and can easily be manipulated. So although a shame, I understand why it can't be done. 
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

:HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley:

And now thanks to this post I am now pining for another fluff LOL.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I honestly don't think truly good breeders need advertising per se. Most have their own web sites where they showcase their dogs. Or they use FB. This is a pet forum, and has been pointed out that we have tried this and had poor results due to certain inconsistencies. And as Stacy pointed out, unless a breeder specifically desired this, it is probably inappropriate anyway. 

If someone is looking for a puppy, we can always PM the individual with information that we may have re: available dogs. It just works so much better.


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## djackson59 (Sep 22, 2014)

I understand both sides of this. I can say that now I am thinking of calling Jonas's breeder to let her know that when she is ready to retire his mom I would love to have her. I had never thought about adopting an older dog before this thread.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

eiksaa said:


> How is it not advertising? By definition - describe or draw attention to (a product, service, or event) in a public medium in order to promote sales or attendance. I'd say that posting about an available puppy sounds pretty close to that.
> 
> From what I've seen, there's more demand than supply if a breeder is actually reputable. I really don't think they should even need to be advertised here to place a dog.


Casually mentioning that a breeder has a pup for sale isn't the same as advertising. I guess we all have our different opinions. I wish I had, had people keeping their eyes and ears open more when I was looking. I thought I would never find a good breeder with a little girl like I was looking for. But at last, my dream came true. :chili:


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

elly said:


> You can PM and ask about a breeder. I remember back about 5 years ago a particular breeder was being recommend by many plus a moderator. Negative posts were removed and some are still gone. It was not fair if you were looking for a puppy and did not get both sides. Several members were very unhappy with their pups. If they had a bad experience with that breeder all heck broke loose sadly.



Yes you can PM and ask about breeders...i've gotten several pm's about a certain breeder and also some asking where I got Kelly from. So I guess if those looking for a pup and like the looks of a members pup then they can PM them about experience and what not. That was very unfortunate when that happened because those looking could not read about the positive and negative experience about a particular breeder just the glowing ones. I and others had our posts removed sadly because we spoke about our negative experience about one certain breeder.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Lacie's Mom said:


> It's been a little while -- but I remember being asked to help put together a list of respected/reputable breeders as a sticky. Actually I think I was asked to help update the old list. Anyway , something came up and I never got to it.
> 
> I will start a thread in the Moderator Section to see if we can come up with a list that would be acceptable to all.




:thumbsup:
when I was looking for a retired show dog I didn't even know where to begin, so I checked here at SM, and was so disappointed their wasn't a section I could go to, I spent hours going back on old threads and there I found a few names to get my search started. I also checked with one of our reputable breeders here, she didn't have a retired dog, from there I went on line, now that's where a person can really get in trouble if you haven't heard about the reputable breeders.
When I finally found the web sites many hadn't been updated since 2012:w00t:
I was just about to give up, if it hadn't have been Pat sharing with me after her talks with breeders I would have never have found Maddie. I owe it all to Pat. Maddie's breeder was so kind and spent a great deal of time listening to me, I didn't feel like I was wasting her time, she is so knowledgeable I am blessed to have her in my life. 
I had talked to a few other breeders it was like I was wasting their time, and some of them wanted so much for their retired dogs. I thought maybe the $ was more important over placing their dog in a good home.
I can see how people who are looking just give up or check places like Craigslist or some of the web sites that look like they are reputable.
I honestly feel SM needs a section set up with names of breeders who are honest and sincere, reputable breeders. I have shared with so many people I have met about what a wonderful site SM is how you can learn so much by reading the threads, but it wasn't until I was seriously looking that I realized just how badly we need a section on reputable breeders.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Matilda's mommy said:


> :thumbsup:
> when I was looking for a retired show dog I didn't even know where to begin, so I checked here at SM, and was so disappointed their wasn't a section I could go to, I spent hours going back on old threads and there I found a few names to get my search started. I also checked with one of our reputable breeders here, she didn't have a retired dog, from there I went on line, now that's where a person can really get in trouble if you haven't heard about the reputable breeders.
> When I finally found the web sites many hadn't been updated since 2012:w00t:
> I was just about to give up, if it hadn't have been Pat sharing with me after her talks with breeders I would have never have found Maddie. I owe it all to Pat. Maddie's breeder was so kind and spent a great deal of time listening to me, I didn't feel like I was wasting her time, she is so knowledgeable I am blessed to have her in my life.
> ...



Paula, I'm curious why you didn't start with the AMA breeding list? Did/do you not know about that? Or was it not helpful?


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

I would also like to mention here that turning SM into a listings website (casual or not) goes against the whole concept of shopping for a breeder (not a dog) that we advocate here. 

While I support listing breeders on here (even if it's a duplicate of the AMA list), I think potential buyers should put the work into contacting breeders, establishing a relationship, and then getting a dog. That's more fruitful in the long run than in n out dog shopping anyway.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

eiksaa said:


> Paula, I'm curious why you didn't start with the AMA breeding list? Did/do you not know about that? Or was it not helpful?


That AMA breeding list isn't worth much if you are truly shopping for a puppy. There should be NO reason to have to only shop one or two breeders if they are all ethical which supposedly they are if they are registered with the AMA. I can tell you from experience that not all AMA breeders are who we have been made to think they are, and there are a lot of breeders who have been breeding and showing quality show maltese for 20+ years and I had never heard of their kennel. I saw something recently that said, shop for a breeder and not a puppy. So then if you only do that you may be waiting years before you get a pup. I had a huge name breeder want me to put a non-refundable deposit on a pup sight unseen, not even a photo. So if I arrived to pick up the pup and didn't like what I saw then I was out the money. Right now I am not impressed with the ethics of some ethical breeders. They are not all like this, but you still have to do your homework. I spoke with a few breeders before I made my decision. I spent quality time asking questions and answering questions. You can learn a lot about their experience and their dogs if you listen. Even after I made my decision as to which breeder I would go with I had to wait 2.5 months for my girl. My choice of a USA breeder just had her litter delivered this week. If I had gone with her I would have gotten my little girl after the first of the year. But when I saw my new girl she stole my heart.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

eiksaa said:


> I would also like to mention here that turning SM into a listings website (casual or not) goes against the whole concept of shopping for a breeder (not a dog) that we advocate here.
> 
> While I support listing breeders on here (even if it's a duplicate of the AMA list), I think potential buyers should put the work into contacting breeders, establishing a relationship, and then getting a dog. That's more fruitful in the long run than in n out dog shopping anyway.


 :thumbsup:

I did check them out most have web sites but haven't updated them in years
I am not on Facebook so I really had a tough time figuring things out. After talking with a few breeders they made me feel like I was wasting their time, especially when I told them I wasn't looking to get a puppy but a retired show dog. I was amazed at how many of them didn't have retired dogs, they had either already placed them or didn't have any at that time. Some people are like I am they aren't on the web that much and are unfamiliar with it:innocent:.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

sassy's mommy said:


> That AMA breeding list isn't worth much if you are truly shopping for a puppy. There should be NO reason to have to only shop one or two breeders if they are all ethical which supposedly they are if they are registered with the AMA. I can tell you from experience that not all AMA breeders are who we have been made to think they are, and there are a lot of breeders who have been breeding and showing quality show maltese for 20+ years and I had never heard of their kennel. I saw something recently that said, shop for a breeder and not a puppy. So then if you only do that you may be waiting years before you get a pup. I had a huge name breeder want me to put a non-refundable deposit on a pup sight unseen, not even a photo. So if I arrived to pick up the pup and didn't like what I saw then I was out the money. Right now I am not impressed with the ethics of some ethical breeders. They are not all like this, but you still have to do your homework.



Not sure what's the point here. Is it -

AMA List sucks?
Some ethical breeders suck?
Waiting for a puppy sucks?
All of these? Or none of these?

Either way I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion. We need some sorta starting point, and IMO the AMA list is a good one. 

I don't know Pat, I had to wait for both, Gustave and Mieka for 3-5 months and I don't regret it. I think having to wait years for a puppy is a gross exaggeration. A puppy is a 12-20yr old commitment, I would think a small wait and yes, some legwork is worth it. 

I honestly don't know why you are complaining about the breeder search. I actually think yours was pretty shortlived and you found a dog fast. Also, it's not like Shinemore is really hard to find. They are one of the breeders who come to mind first if someone is looking for that Korean look, and they always have puppies available. Yes, you did talk to many breeders before you made a decision but that was your call, yes? Again, it's not like you found Shinemore AFTER talking to all these breeders.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Matilda's mommy said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I did check them out most have web sites but haven't updated them in years
> I am not on Facebook so I really had a tough time figuring things out. After talking with a few breeders they made me feel like I was wasting their time, especially when I told them I wasn't looking to get a puppy but a retired show dog. I was amazed at how many of them didn't have retired dogs, they had either already placed them or didn't have any at that time. Some people are like I am they aren't on the web that much and are unfamiliar with it:innocent:.



Thanks for answering, I think that makes a lot of sense. Those websites sure are outdated and it does require a lot of work to contact breeders. Emails are very often unanswered but I found calling helped. I had to talk to 4-5 breeders just in CA before I found Gustave. I would also like to say that from the point you announced you were ready for a second dog, to when you talked to your breeder was actually not long at all. People have to wait much longer for puppies so you definitely lucked out.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

eiksaa said:


> Paula, I'm curious why you didn't start with the AMA breeding list? Did/do you not know about that? Or was it not helpful?






eiksaa said:


> Not sure what's the point here. Is it -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Aastha, you have no idea what you are talking about. But there is no point in that conversation. There are actually a lot of USA breeders bringing Shinemore and a Japanese line into their DNA. Most breeders have a specific look that they breed for and that is why it is good to check around so one might find the look they like. You are right in that I did talk to Shinemore first. I love her dogs. There are many Korean breeders who have pups on FB. They are all beautiful.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

sassy's mommy said:


> Aastha, you have no idea what you are talking about. But there is no point in that conversation. There are actually a lot of USA breeders bringing Shinemore and a Japanese line into their DNA. Most breeders have a specific look that they breed for and that is why it is good to check around so one might find the look they like. You are right in that I did talk to Shinemore first. I love her dogs. There are many Korean breeders who have pups on FB. They are all beautiful.


And again I am not seeing where your problem lies Pat. You did what we all here on SM recommend. You shopped your breeders, you talked to quite a few from what I have heard. And you found your dog. Your wait was not overly long, and you have a happy outcome. Not sure why you are complaining or being dismissive to Aastha. All of our puppy searches are relevant to the point here. You don't have a corner on the market for puppy shopping.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Just a quick reminder to observe the SM Rules and to treat each other with respect.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Guys, I'm sorry, I am the one who reported the thread to begin with. I didn't mean to start anything, I just read it and knew it was against current SM rules and gave the mods a heads up. It was nothing personal, I love Lucille's dogs and had even mentioned Raven going to a jrs home because I thought she was stunning and it was such a waste to have a beautiful pup who was just too small to show but maybe could be a rock star in a different venue than the conformation ring. 

I hate seeing members at odds and sure hope we can come up with a happy medium in regards to this topic!


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

Wow....and so many are wondering why folks are leaving SM. Read this thread. It's hardly surprising. No one ever seems happy anymore. Rules are wanted when they benefit you, but they are too harsh when they don't support your views. Then when you aren't happy you start attacking each other? A little bit of grace would go a long way. SMH.


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## Ann Mother (Dec 18, 2013)

A little over reacting 😁. Let us move on?


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

I'm following this thread and can't get to understand why is this even happening. 

- The advertise of dogs for sale are not allowed on Spoiled Maltese, that is a fact and all the reasons that lead to this rule have been explained more than once. We all know how BYB are sneaky and find their way to sell their dogs for profit. We all know not all the breeders are reputable and why would we be responsible to filter who is who, based on what? 

- A LINK to AMA, Nationals, or any other place that list reputable show breeders should be available and whoever wants to get a dog might be directed to the source of this information. IMO no one can filter/pick and choose who is going to be on the list. Again it would bring the "my breeder is better than yours". 

- Sharing rescues dogs that are available is allowed and supported as it should be, it is different than sharing a dog from a show breeder. I hope people get the difference between rescues in need for a forever home and show breeder puppies available. 

- Posting a picture of an available dog from a breeder stating the dog comes from the best breeder ever and how to contact her IS advertise. 

- This is a PET forum and should stay like that. Opening it to list animals for sale would be the fastest way to go downhill, it won't be possible to filter who is reputable and who is not specially when "the best breeder" references are based on people's one time experience opinion. 

- Again on the best breeder, one will know if the breeder is really good if something goes wrong. Often your relationship with a breeder is, you contact them and talk about yourself, they see if their dog would be a good fit to your family, you pick up the dog and the end. Everything is great when everything goes well. A pet owner does not have the knowledgment to say who is the best breeder. 

I hope and wish people stop referring to other members as the police, rain clouds and other derogatory words. 

To finish, I have 3 dogs. My first dog is from a BYB and because of Spoiled Maltese I got to learn so much about the breeding practices and with that I ended meeting a breeder and getting my second dog from her with the help of a SM friend. SO yes, there is a lot of good people with great information willing to share and help around here, all you gotta do is ask.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Dominic said:


> I'm following this thread and can't get to understand why is this even happening.
> 
> - The advertise of dogs for sale are not allowed on Spoiled Maltese, that is a fact and all the reasons that lead to this rule have been explained more than once. We all know how BYB are sneaky and find their way to sell their dogs for profit. We all know not all the breeders are reputable and why would we be responsible to filter who is who, based on what?
> 
> ...


 :goodpost:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Lacie's Mom said:


> It's been a little while -- but I remember being asked to help put together a list of respected/reputable breeders as a sticky. Actually I think I was asked to help update the old list. Anyway , something came up and I never got to it.
> 
> I will start a thread in the Moderator Section to see if we can come up with a list that would be acceptable to all.


Several years ago, when Joe was still the owner of Spoiled Maltese, a reputable breeder, who was and still is a member of AMA, applied to join the Breeders List on Spoiled Maltese. At that time, she was told new applications were not being accepted. I am sure Joe had good intentions for not accepting applications ... but, now I regret that I didn't ask him why. I guess I was just like the majority of members on SM who have been afraid to ask legitimate and intelligent questions ... and, we shouldn't have to feel that way. 

The breeder herself shared this with me. Please don't PM me who it is ... however, I will ask her if she feels comfortable opening up about this. I think it is important to get certain things out in the open ... and, directly by the person/ persons who no longer feel comfortable posting here. 

The point is that I have always wondered why there are only a few breeders on the Breeders List. It seems to me that the more reputable breeders welcomed on Spoiled Maltese would be such a positive addition for SM. Instead, we have had several reputable breeders leave SM. I think we should be able to feel comfortable asking them why. And, they should feel comfortable explaining why.

I don't see how we can encourage breeders to join SM ... unless SM openly encourages breeders to fill out an application and makes clear the rules exclusively for breeders ... who want join the Breeders List. I think that is the only way it won't appear as though SM is being selective in who they think belongs on the list of reputable breeders. 

What I hate is those who talk behind the scenes about breeder issues ... and, instead keep silent. It bothers me that some prefer to stay silent ... just because they want to be liked. Well, I appreciate being liked too ... but, not at the expense of being upfront and honest with how I feel.

Yes, we have two very reputable breeders on Spoiled Maltese ... Stacy and Carina. And, they are most helpful in answering the many, many questions asked by SM members. I appreciate that very much. 

I wanted to note one other thing for what it is worth ...

I have not seen the breeders on my FB list advertise any dogs that they might have available. However, as here on SM ... they occasionally have shown their pups ... which everyone enjoys seeing. And, although, again ... they are not advertising their pups ... anyone who is in advertising knows ... that the best kind of advertising comes from ... *word of mouth* ... and from customers who are happy with dogs they have purchased from reputable breeders. Something maybe we should all think about ...


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Several years ago, when Joe was still the owner of Spoiled Maltese, a reputable breeder, who was and still is a member of AMA, applied to join the Breeders List on Spoiled Maltese. At that time, she was told new applications were not being accepted. I am sure Joe had good intentions for not accepting applications ... but, now I regret that I didn't ask him why. I guess I was just like the majority of members on SM who have been afraid to ask legitimate and intelligent questions ... and, we shouldn't have to feel that way.
> 
> The breeder herself shared this with me. Please don't PM me who it is ... however, I will ask her if she feels comfortable opening up about this. I think it is important to get certain things out in the open ... and, directly by the person/ persons who no longer feel comfortable posting here.
> 
> ...


Honestly Marie you have to stay silent somewhat with breeder issues because firstly some have great experiences with the same breeder and vehemently defend them, causing the threads to get closed, furthermore breeders threaten to sue SM if anything is said badly about them, from what I gather. It isn't about being liked. 

I have recently seen 3 top notch breeders advertize pups for sale on their FB pages. I only subscribe to about 5. 

Agreed, Carina and Stacy are beyond reproach and wonderful breeders. I think this is the best way for them to be a member here, as one of us. They advise very soundly and offer fantastic support. Some members to go to them for puppies, just because they have really got to know them here and trust them, not because they advertise. 

I don't think any breeders should be listed really, just maybe the AMA list could be easily accessed to newbies. But if they have paid for a lifetime listing, then I guess nothing can be done, except maybe add all AMA breeders to make it all even. But no posting of availables. 

This is a turnaround for me. The posting of available puppies was being abused, so I am agreeing now, for the first time, that not allowing the posting of availables is the only thing to do. :angry:

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

silverhaven said:


> Honestly Marie you have to stay silent somewhat with breeder issues because firstly some have great experiences with the same breeder and vehemently defend them, causing the threads to get closed, furthermore breeders threaten to sue SM if anything is said badly about them, from what I gather. It isn't about being liked.
> 
> I have recently seen 3 top notch breeders advertize pups for sale on their FB pages. I only subscribe to about 5.
> 
> ...


Maureen, I appreciate your feedback to my post. 

I can understand a lot of your points. I still wish though that some past members who are reputable breeders would return to SM. And, many other members, too. I miss so many of them. Yes, I am friends with all of them on FB ... but, we used to be a family here.

And, I was being honest about the breeders on my FB page ... I have not seen them advertise there. However, I am not on FB a lot either.

Peace and harmony everyone. Oh, forget it ... that sounds too mushy!:HistericalSmiley:


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Maureen, I appreciate your feedback to my post.
> 
> I can understand a lot of your points. I still wish though that some past members who are reputable breeders would return to SM. And, many other members, too. I miss so many of them. Yes, I am friends with all of them on FB ... but, we used to be a family here.
> 
> ...


I totally agree, I miss a lot of people too. See some on FB but I tend to keep fb just for family. Such a shame it spoiled at lot of our enjoyment. 

Big hugs Marie, you are such a caring lady. :grouphug: 

Oh I totally believed you regarding FB breeder listings. They don't post much, but it just happened that the 3 posted recently, can't really say their names or I would be advertising for them :blush::HistericalSmiley:


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## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> I still wish though that some past members who are reputable breeders would return to SM. And, many other members, too. I miss so many of them. Yes, I am friends with all of them on FB ... but, *we used to be a family here*.


Threads like this are reasons why I don't post very often, Marie.:smilie_tischkante: I miss our family. I know forums evolve. I'm glad most of us have connected on FB but I really miss Paula, Kerry and the rest of the gals who aren't on FB.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Bonnie's Mommie said:


> Threads like this are reasons why I don't post very often, Marie.:smilie_tischkante: I miss our family. I know forums evolve. I'm glad most of us have connected on FB but I really miss Paula, Kerry and the rest of the gals who aren't on FB.


Right ... there are still several friends here that are not on FB. 

I often think about what Heidi expressed on FB ... about how whenever one of our fluff's are sick ... or are at the Rainbow Bridge, in Heaven ... how we come together ... because we met on SM ... and, have a special bond because we have watched our beloved fluff babies grow up together. We grieve and worry about one another's fluff's as though they are our own.

And, look at the beautiful blessing in your life ... Bounce. Because of SM ... and, Stacy ... Bounce came into your life. Because of Stacy's loving heart ... you are now Bounce's wonderful Mommy.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

MalteseJane said:


> You have to weigh every word you write because one single word can upset somebody and they go and complain to the moderators and the moderators instead of telling them to get a life, side with them. If you cannot discuss something anymore what's the point. You don't learn anything if



I always read your posts and never comment cause your words tend to be hurtful. To say you wish the moderators would tell people to go get a life has hit a new low level. Then you wish we could all discuss something? Explain.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

MalteseJane said:


> So if I understand you right, you tend to keep fb just for family. So if that is the case how come you subscribe to about 5 FB breeder's pages. Your words, not mine.
> 
> *I have recently seen 3 top notch breeders advertize pups for sale on their FB pages. I only subscribe to about 5.
> 
> ...


See, now this makes me sad to see posts like this too, from members like you and Linda. 

When Bonnie got so sick, the forum pulled together and made a horrible situation slightly less horrible. That wasn't Facebook, that was SM. When it truly counts, SM is an amazing group of people who pull together to help if someone is in need. And nobody sympathizes with a loss like the members of this forum. 

I think we need another 'why sm is awesome' thread, like a few years ago when things got bad like this. Sometimes we just need to be reminded!


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

MalteseJane said:


> So if I understand you right, you tend to keep fb just for family. So if that is the case how come you subscribe to about 5 FB breeder's pages. Your words, not mine.
> 
> *I have recently seen 3 top notch breeders advertize pups for sale on their FB pages. I only subscribe to about 5.
> 
> ...


You are correct LOL. I do keep it mainly for family, but given I don't get to see cute available puppies on here anymore, I enjoy seeing them on facebook and have no problem whatsoever with them posting on there. That is partly why I subscribe to them. Not sure where you read in my post that I did have a problem with it. I also have about 5 friends on FB that don't post here anymore. But prefer to do Maltese on SM. 

Yes I agree that I didn't notice it be abused myself. But some breeders were highly touted for sure. I bought from one of them for that reason, and wouldn't again. 

I also agree that this forum is highly moderated, and this thread also will get closed if much more is said. 

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

MalteseJane said:


> So if I understand you right, you tend to keep fb just for family. So if that is the case how come you subscribe to about 5 FB breeder's pages. Your words, not mine.
> 
> *I have recently seen 3 top notch breeders advertize pups for sale on their FB pages. I only subscribe to about 5.
> 
> ...


Why oh why do you keep this going? And whom exactly was failing to have a discussion on this thread? And whom has been force into just agreeing? 

And I hate that Linda doesn't post much here anymore. I really feel like SM came together for her in a big way when Bonnie was sick and ultimately died. That was a sad day. And SM was there for Linda. as they have been for so many others. So, yes I am sad that she doesn't come by very often. She and Bounce are missed.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

So on FB I expressed my dislike for the constant fussing here on SM. When I joined a few years ago, folks were so welcoming, helpful and not afraid to lead me on the right path when I needed it (for instance buying Bella from a pet store. Boy did I learn about that horrible choice). In turn, I have tried to do the same for others (educate, love, support, guide) .... even developed a passion for rescue as a result of some of the knowledge I received right here on this forum. Some of my nearest and dearest friends are from my SM family. 

So with that said, I must wonder if some of the many private messages I have received are correct. Maybe we should push back against the "bully girls" - oh yes they exist and so please do not pretend that they don't ... rather than allowing their constant negativity to run so many of us away? Enough is enough. Some of you can think that is "over reacting" or maybe it's just saying out loud what everyone else is sending in private messages to each other. 

Mods - rather than losing more valued members, maybe we can set up a "members only" post where we can address some of the issues that keep causing folks to leave. Can we make reforming SM a priority so that maybe just maybe some of the old members would want to return and new ones will feel more inclined to stay? SM can be a wonderful place ... but I think it will take work to plant those seeds again.


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## Lou's Mom (Apr 8, 2014)

As a new member this truly makes me sad and I probably don't have any right to say anything. I understand the policy against advertising but this seems to have gone way out of control for one photo. It's sad that people have left or been banned for their opinions. There is always going to be another side or opinion, that's normal, but maybe there should be a section in the forum to agree/disagree rather than what appears to new members as a "war" between members. I've read some great posts and received great info and prayers from this forum and its members. I have also had someone be a bit snarky - they are entitled to their opinion. But it's just sad that this has gone this far.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Summergirl73 said:


> So on FB I expressed my dislike for the constant fussing here on SM. When I joined a few years ago, folks were so welcoming, helpful and not afraid to lead me on the right path when I needed it (for instance buying Bella from a pet store. Boy did I learn about that horrible choice). In turn, I have tried to do the same for others (educate, love, support, guide) .... even developed a passion for rescue as a result of some of the knowledge I received right here on this forum. Some of my nearest and dearest friends are from my SM family.
> 
> So with that said, I must wonder if some of the many private messages I have received are correct. Maybe we should push back against the "bully girls" - oh yes they exist and so please do not pretend that they don't ... rather than allowing their constant negativity to run so many of us away? Enough is enough. Some of you can think that is "over reacting" or maybe it's just saying out loud what everyone else is sending in private messages to each other.
> 
> Mods - rather than losing more valued members, maybe we can set up a "members only" post where we can address some of the issues that keep causing folks to leave. Can we make reforming SM a priority so that maybe just maybe some of the old members would want to return and new ones will feel more inclined to stay? SM can be a wonderful place ... but I think it will take work to plant those seeds again.


How come some of you seem to be obviously receiving lots of private messages over this thread ... and, yet I don't? I feel left out. Okay ... I am just kidding! :HistericalSmiley: Seriously though ... I personally think that when too many behind the scenes discussions start taking place on something like this ... then it just causes more problems and hurt feelings. 

I personally think when we start labeling members as "bully girls" ... then even more good people will leave. Really ... for any *guests* reading this ... would you want to join the forum where members can't be more objective to at least listen with an open mind to one another's opinions? 

Instead of zeroing in on words such as "police" olice: ( now why do you think we have that emoticon on SM? ... :HistericalSmiley ... why can't we just try and learn why the person/persons using that term is/are feeling that way? No side is always 100% right ... and, yes ... it is obvious that sides are taken here. 

I have been very careful not to openly discuss this thread on FB. Not because I know we could possibly get banned for saying anything that could come across as being negative ... but, because I feel if we can't discuss it here ... then something is wrong. And, things will never change for the better.

I would love for long term members like Linda to come back and specifically share why they don't feel comfortable or enjoy posting more often on SM. And, I've said more than once ... a lot of members no longer post on SM. If you think I am exaggerating then visit my FB page. Whenever Snowball is not feeling well or I have good news ... well, that is where so many other old SM members post ... and, there are many. Friends from all walks of life ... including lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, at home Moms, and even a veterinarian who used to be a moderator here ... they are now on FB. I can count hundreds and would love to list their names ... but, no ... I know better. But, just look at posts on my profile statistics here, check out all the old posters no longer here, and then go to my FB page ... then I think you'll see I'm not exaggerating.

I have gone back and re-read this whole thread several times. I can see good points on both sides. 

Anyone who knows Paula knows she means well and has a good heart. I can understand why she is feeling frustrated with some rules. I don't think it was necessary to imply that Paula said something wrong because she spoke about a breeder "being the best". Come on ... even on SM we refer to Stacy and Carina as being the best. Even Paula ... and, me too, have praised our breeders here. I see "the best" in many people. 

And, Pat ... another long time member. I think she brought up a very important point about AMA ... that not all breeders on the list are abiding by the rules. I wish we could discuss that more ... but, I doubt we ever will. AMA rules make it clear about the code of silence. So, what does one expect if a breeder is breaking the rules? Perhaps that is why many well known reputable breeders are not members on AMA. 

As for rules ... I believe Administration should be open to listening to feedback from their members. I do think certain rules need to be modified in order for us to encourage old members who have left to come back. Just my opinion ... and, it is well meant.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Lou's Mom said:


> As a new member this truly makes me sad and I probably don't have any right to say anything. I understand the policy against advertising but this seems to have gone way out of control for one photo. It's sad that people have left or been banned for their opinions. There is always going to be another side or opinion, that's normal, but maybe there should be a section in the forum to agree/disagree rather than what appears to new members as a "war" between members. I've read some great posts and received great info and prayers from this forum and its members. I have also had someone be a bit snarky - they are entitled to their opinion. But it's just sad that this has gone this far.


Beautifully expressed. Thank you, Donna.


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## sdubose (Feb 21, 2012)

I have not been on SM since Friday and did not realize what a turn this thread has taken. I would like to apologize for my remark about the "Police". I honestly did not mean anything about it. I was disappointed when I tried to show my DH the picture of Raven because I am trying to talk him into extending our doggy family. But it really wasn't meant to be ugly. I am truely sorry. 


I came across this site after I got Abbigail. I was trying to do some research because we were having some issues with Abby and this site popped up in the search. You see we have never had a pure bred dog before. We've always rescued. So we were very unfamilar with the spams of Puppy Mills and BYB's. Frankly, we were taken in with the so called breeder we got Abby from. She knew how to play us. I want to state up front that we love Abby and would not trade her for all the money in the world, but after reading threads on this site I realized we have supported at the very least a really bad BYB and this made me sick. My point of all of that is this "This site EDUCATED us and it is a place to come to when questions arise. It has helped me on more then one occasion. I would be lost without the valuable information offered here. And my eyes are open to BYB's and puppy mills. Never again will I race into getting a puppy without some major research. And that my friends, is what this site is all about. A place to come when we have questions, a place to bring our sorrows when we lose one of our babies. And a place to advocate for our little fluff butts. We all don't have to agree on everything, but remember it's about our little babies. Again I want to say this site brings a wealth of information on the maltese breed. I do understand the reasons for the rules.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

sdubose said:


> I have not been on SM since Friday and did not realize what a turn this thread has taken. I would like to apologize for my remark about the "Police". I honestly did not mean anything about it. I was disappointed when I tried to show my DH the picture of Raven because I am trying to talk him into extending our doggy family. But it really wasn't meant to be ugly. I am truely sorry.
> 
> 
> I came across this site after I got Abbigail. I was trying to do some research because we were having some issues with Abby and this site popped up in the search. You see we have never had a pure bred dog before. We've always rescued. So we were very unfamilar with the spams of Puppy Mills and BYB's. Frankly, we were taken in with the so called breeder we got Abby from. She knew how to play us. I want to state up front that we love Abby and would not trade her for all the money in the world, but after reading threads on this site I realized we have supported at the very least a really bad BYB and this made me sick. My point of all of that is this "This site EDUCATED us and it is a place to come to when questions arise. It has helped me on more then one occasion. I would be lost without the valuable information offered here. And my eyes are open to BYB's and puppy mills. Never again will I race into getting a puppy without some major research. And that my friends, is what this site is all about. A place to come when we have questions, a place to bring our sorrows when we lose one of our babies. And a place to advocate for our little fluff butts. We all don't have to agree on everything, but remember it's about our little babies. Again I want to say this site brings a wealth of information on the maltese breed. I do understand the reasons for the rules.


Awww ... another beautifully expressed post.:tender:

Actually, I was making light of the police issue because someone else brought it up and seemed to make an issue of it. To me, it was no big deal or anything that I would take seriously.

I think in the end, we all mean well. 

Thank you, Shelly, for your post.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Summergirl73 said:


> So on FB I expressed my dislike for the constant fussing here on SM. When I joined a few years ago, folks were so welcoming, helpful and not afraid to lead me on the right path when I needed it (for instance buying Bella from a pet store. Boy did I learn about that horrible choice). In turn, I have tried to do the same for others (educate, love, support, guide) .... even developed a passion for rescue as a result of some of the knowledge I received right here on this forum. Some of my nearest and dearest friends are from my SM family.
> 
> So with that said, I must wonder if some of the many private messages I have received are correct. Maybe we should push back against the "bully girls" - oh yes they exist and so please do not pretend that they don't ... rather than allowing their constant negativity to run so many of us away? Enough is enough. Some of you can think that is "over reacting" or maybe it's just saying out loud what everyone else is sending in private messages to each other.
> 
> Mods - rather than losing more valued members, maybe we can set up a "members only" post where we can address some of the issues that keep causing folks to leave. Can we make reforming SM a priority so that maybe just maybe some of the old members would want to return and new ones will feel more inclined to stay? SM can be a wonderful place ... but I think it will take work to plant those seeds again.



Bridget, I'm going to extend you the courtesy of addressing you directly and I wish you would've done the same instead of name calling abstractly. I'm assuming you're calling me, Pam, Beatriz and perhaps Trisha a 'bully girl'. 

I am not someone who nods along and pretends everything is good. If I have an opinion, I express it. But I do it without name calling, or insulting others. Again, that courtesy has not been extended to me either. Usually when people run out of arguments or valid points to debate with, they turn to name calling. I get that, and that's what I'm seeing here. 

Getting back to the whole point here, it was as simple as me saying that IMO, puppy listings here will do more harm than good. Then some points were mentioned against that, so I came back with reasons for why those shouldn't be concerns, then the name calling began. Which 'side' sounds like a bully here?

Also, mods, maybe it should be a rule to not mention receiving many PMs to validate a statement? I don't think the numbers of PMs or their content really matters in a public discussion. If people have something to say, please either state it in public or stay out of the discussion. Can't have it both ways. 

Bridget, please do tell me would you rather we leave the forum? What's the 'push back' plan?


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> I personally think when we start labeling members as "bully girls" ... then even more good people will leave. Really ... for any *guests* reading this ... would you want to join the forum where members can't be more objective to at least listen with an open mind to one another's opinions?



I labeled them that way, because that is how they are consistently referred to and rightfully so. They are too big for their britches as my Pa-Pa would've said. I don't think in any way that finally coming out and _addressing_ their constant bad attitudes and unwelcomed remarks ... is going to be a deterrent for folks to join SM, but rather the belittling comments of those individuals that will cause it.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

Aastha - you would be quite wrong in your assumption that I was speaking about that group of individuals (including yourself). Quite the opposite actually. Some of the folks that I was referring to were not even involved in this particular thread. I decided not to mention the names because I felt and still feel it would be quite unnecessary. Your comments here are rather biting though. Kind of surprised me actually.

Why is someone receiving PM's so offensive btw?


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Summergirl73 said:


> Aastha - you would be quite wrong in your assumption that I was speaking about that group of individuals (including yourself). Quite the opposite actually. Some of the folks that I was referring to were not even involved in this particular thread. I decided not to mention the names because I felt and still feel it would be quite unnecessary. Your comments here are rather biting though. Kind of surprised me actually.
> 
> Why is someone receiving PM's so offensive btw?



Oh I'm glad you didn't mean any of those people. I just thought since you were posting in this thread, it would be contextual. See folks, that's what happens when people talk. Misunderstandings clear up. 

Receiving PMs is not offensive at all! I never said that. It's pointless to MENTION those PMs to validate a point, that's all.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

I see. To clarify, some of the folks I had been referring to were on this thread, others were not. They were not those that you mentioned. People will have their own opinions about others, that's just the way it goes. Some folks will like me, others will not. I get it. The reason that I mentioned the pm's is because some members have lost their voice on SM because of the individuals that I was referring to. They are so persistent and negative that many members are not feeling like they can even speak up any more. That's not okay. Everyone has a right to their opinions, it's how much you throw those out at people that generally becomes a problem. Some folks lately have not known when to step off their soapboxes and it really crosses the line to "bullying". Funny enough I actually hate that word - I use it here only for lack of a better option.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

See, now this makes me sad to see posts like this too, from members like you and Linda. 

When Bonnie got so sick, the forum pulled together and made a horrible situation slightly less horrible. That wasn't Facebook, that was SM. When it truly counts, SM is an amazing group of people who pull together to help if someone is in need. And nobody sympathizes with a loss like the members of this forum. 

I think we need another 'why sm is awesome' thread, like a few years ago when things got bad like this. *Sometimes we just need to be reminded!*

Stacy, Thank you for your comments. Please let us remember that we are all here because of the love and support we receive from our SM family in good times and bad.


____


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

sdubose said:


> "This site EDUCATED us and it is a place to come to when questions arise. It has helped me on more then one occasion. I would be lost without the valuable information offered here. And my eyes are open to BYB's and puppy mills. Never again will I race into getting a puppy without some major research. And that my friends, is what this site is all about. A place to come when we have questions, a place to bring our sorrows when we lose one of our babies. And a place to advocate for our little fluff butts. We all don't have to agree on everything, but remember it's about our little babies. Again I want to say this site brings a wealth of information on the maltese breed. I do understand the reasons for the rules.


This is why SM exists. 



Summergirl73 said:


> I don't think in any way that finally coming out and _addressing_ their constant bad attitudes and unwelcomed remarks ... is going to be a deterrent for folks to join SM, but rather the belittling comments of those individuals that will cause it.


Bridget - one thing I have learned over my life is that many times the types of people who verbally beat up others think they are right and that the rest of us are "all wet." Telling someone that they have a bad attitude and their remarks are unwelcome, either publicly or privately, often does not do any good. 

The moderators do try to address these individuals when we become aware of it - we do this privately, behind the scenes, with cautions and warnings. Sometimes warnings are heeded and other times not. If you read every post in this thread, I think (if I remember right) you will see a reference from someone to warnings and cautions. 

You should also know that when someone ignores a caution/warning/ reminder - whatever you want to call it - and continues the behavior we have warned about, membership privileges will be revoked; this is done so that the other members of SM can continue to share their opinions freely. 

There's a fine line between open discourse on differing viewpoints and verbally berating others. We are trying very hard to protect the first and contain/remove the latter. And please know that a lot of behind-the-scenes discussion among the mods and Yung takes place when "last resort" measures are taken.


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## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

bellaratamaltese said:


> See, now this makes me sad to see posts like this too, from members like you and Linda.
> 
> When Bonnie got so sick, the forum pulled together and made a horrible situation slightly less horrible. That wasn't Facebook, that was SM. When it truly counts, SM is an amazing group of people who pull together to help if someone is in need. And nobody sympathizes with a loss like the members of this forum.
> 
> I think we need another 'why sm is awesome' thread, like a few years ago when things got bad like this. Sometimes we just need to be reminded!


Stacy, you're right. SM gave me more support than anyone else in my life could have, because you all understood in ways that no one else could have. And you, Stacy, gave me the only thing that could have healed my heart and I love her more every day. Never thought I could love again and I'm so happy you proved me wrong!


pammy4501 said:


> Why oh why do you keep this going? And whom exactly was failing to have a discussion on this thread? And whom has been force into just agreeing?
> 
> And I hate that Linda doesn't post much here anymore. I really feel like SM came together for her in a big way when Bonnie was sick and ultimately died. That was a sad day. And SM was there for Linda. as they have been for so many others. So, yes I am sad that she doesn't come by very often. She and Bounce are missed.





revakb2 said:


> See, now this makes me sad to see posts like this too, from members like you and Linda.
> 
> When Bonnie got so sick, the forum pulled together and made a horrible situation slightly less horrible. That wasn't Facebook, that was SM. When it truly counts, SM is an amazing group of people who pull together to help if someone is in need. And nobody sympathizes with a loss like the members of this forum.
> 
> ...



Pammy and Reva, I'm sorry, too that I don't post as often. After Bonnie died, for awhile a part of me died and I just couldn't post here. It was too connected to her (to be honest, it still is to a point). The fact that everyone pulled together meant so much, but that's the community and family that we shared.

Then suddenly, I had to focus all of my energy on bonding with Bounce, which I was afraid of. I quickly realized I had nothing to fear, because she is such a special little spirit, who easily worked her magical way into my heart.

I am touched that you miss me. I miss you too! I promise I will start to post more often. Bounce is a very funny little girl who deserves a voice and a pawprint on SM.

xoxoxo


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## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Right ... there are still several friends here that are not on FB.
> 
> I often think about what Heidi expressed on FB ... about how whenever one of our fluff's are sick ... or are at the Rainbow Bridge, in Heaven ... how we come together ... because we met on SM ... and, have a special bond because we have watched our beloved fluff babies grow up together. We grieve and worry about one another's fluff's as though they are our own.
> 
> And, look at the beautiful blessing in your life ... Bounce. Because of SM ... and, Stacy ... Bounce came into your life. Because of Stacy's loving heart ... you are now Bounce's wonderful Mommy.


You are so right, Marie. We watched our babies grow up and in some sad cases, said goodbye. We stayed up with Stacey and Carina, lol, whelping!

Strong, lasting friendships have developed here. I value all of those, including ours, Marie.:wub:

Here's a picture for you:


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Bonnie's Mommie said:


> Stacy, you're right. SM gave me more support than anyone else in my life could have, because you all understood in ways that no one else could have. And you, Stacy, gave me the only thing that could have healed my heart and I love her more every day. Never thought I could love again and I'm so happy you proved me wrong!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would be lovely to see more of you for sure :tender:


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## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

Thank you, Maureen!


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

I am very fond of this forum and it's members. You are the only people who truly understand my obsession with my dogs. Even the diversity of opinion is beautiful, we are all passionate and sometimes get carried away in that(Lord knows I do). If we all thought and felt the same way there would be no learning and things would just stand still. Diversity is how we learn from each other but we have to be open to it.

I am sad that I can't discuss breeders here-and I can't really ask for suggestions openly. The only way I know to communicate about specifics regarding breeders is via PM, and I wouldn't even know who to PM. AMA is a great website-but not for all over the country and not for out of the USA. Unfortunately picking are slim where I am from. I do have the option of attending shows and meeting breeders-however, I would really like the opinions of the friends and acquaintances I have here.

Here at SM we are anti Puppy Mill-no arguments there-but I feel we could do a much better job in regards promoting Reputable Breeders. I also feel like we do a great job of promoting rescues. We like to say 'if you're going to buy, buy from a reputable breeder' but even what we have in place-doesn't help the person doing the puppy research all that much. These are just my opinions, I realize others will differ, and that's just fine


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Right ... there are still several friends here that are not on FB.
> 
> I often think about what Heidi expressed on FB ... about how whenever one of our fluff's are sick ... or are at the Rainbow Bridge, in Heaven ... how we come together ... because we met on SM ... and, have a special bond because we have watched our beloved fluff babies grow up together. We grieve and worry about one another's fluff's as though they are our own.
> 
> And, look at the beautiful blessing in your life ... Bounce. Because of SM ... and, Stacy ... Bounce came into your life. Because of Stacy's loving heart ... you are now Bounce's wonderful Mommy.





Bonnie's Mommie said:


> You are so right, Marie. We watched our babies grow up and in some sad cases, said goodbye. We stayed up with Stacey and Carina, lol, whelping!
> 
> Strong, lasting friendships have developed here. I value all of those, including ours, Marie.:wub:
> 
> Here's a picture for you:


Awww ...thank you, Linda. I love you, girlfriend.:heart::smootch:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

shellbeme said:


> I am very fond of this forum and it's members. You are the only people who truly understand my obsession with my dogs. Even the diversity of opinion is beautiful, we are all passionate and sometimes get carried away in that(Lord knows I do). If we all thought and felt the same way there would be no learning and things would just stand still. Diversity is how we learn from each other but we have to be open to it.
> 
> I am sad that I can't discuss breeders here-and I can't really ask for suggestions openly. The only way I know to communicate about specifics regarding breeders is via PM, and I wouldn't even know who to PM. AMA is a great website-but not for all over the country and not for out of the USA. Unfortunately picking are slim where I am from. I do have the option of attending shows and meeting breeders-however, I would really like the opinions of the friends and acquaintances I have here.
> 
> Here at SM we are anti Puppy Mill-no arguments there-but I feel we could better job in regards promoting Reputable Breeders. I also feel like we do a great job of promoting rescues. We like to say 'if you're going to buy, buy from a reputable breeder' but even what we have in place-doesn't help the person doing the puppy research all that much. These are just my opinions, I realize others will differ, and that's just fine


A great post, Shelly. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I can especially relate to your first paragraph.:thumbsup:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

As a Moderator, I've been watching this thread closely and I must say that I'm sad that it's gotten so far off track from what the original poster had asked -- which is "what happened to the thread with Raven's picture".

I don't believe that this thread was meant to be controversial at all, but, somehow it became controversial and natsy on way too many levels. 

I know that we often agree to disagree on issues -- but -- most of the time those are important topics like puppymills, feeding, supplements, breeding, spaying/neutering, etc. And I like the fact that we can intelligently and politely share different thoughts and points of view, but, I was very suprised about the bitterness that seemed to surface in this thread.

Hopefully we can agree that some of us disagree on whether or not the SM Rule about posting fluffs that are for sale is a good rule. I do agree that Rules should always be evolving as needed and hope that when necessary we could have a polite thread discussing why a Rule is needed or why a Rule my need to be changed. I remember how well we came together earlier this year to put together a mission statement for SM. We had lots of input from various members and lots of wordsmithing until we came up with something that, imho, said what all of us think SM's Mission is.

Remember that Moderators are here to help ensure that nasty comments directed at individuals aren't left unchecked. That is why you wil sometimes see that a particular post has been deleted from a thread. In addition, private messages are sent to members that get out of line reminding them of SM Rules and warning that if their actions continue, a ban to their account may be forthcoming. This is not something that the Moderators enjoy, and we allow a lot of leeway before we delete posts or pm members about conduct. We always hope that the group will resolve issues without our interference. In addition, I hope that you will remember that we have a number of Moderators here on SM as well as an Administrator. No individual Moderator makes these types of decisions without input from all Moderators and the Administrator. So please don't ever think that a particular decision was made by an individual Moderator -- it will always be a group decision where thought and discussion has taken place; then we have tried to do what's best for the forum as a whole.

Now, hopefully, we can get back to more of the fun SM things -- like Secret Santa, the Rescue Raffle, the Halloween Video, etc. 
__________________


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

shellbeme said:


> I am sad that I can't discuss breeders here-and I can't really ask for suggestions openly.



Shelly, I really want to clarify this because a lot of people have mentioned the same but I don't think that's correct. 

I believe it's within rules to ask about breeders. So a post saying "hey I'm in CA, do you know good breeders?" is totally OK and it's also OK to respond to that with names. 

Could a mod please confirm?


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Aastha -- you are correct about that, as well as relating any 1st hand experience a member may have had with a particular breeder.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

maggieh said:


> This is why SM exists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

eiksaa said:


> Shelly, I really want to clarify this because a lot of people have mentioned the same but I don't think that's correct.
> 
> I believe it's within rules to ask about breeders. So a post saying "hey I'm in CA, do you know good breeders?" is totally OK and it's also OK to respond to that with names.
> 
> Could a mod please confirm?


Thank you, I didn't think we could do that.


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