# Breeder question



## alijane (Jun 28, 2008)

I am new to this forum (today!). I am very close to adopting my first maltese puppy. I have been in contact and working with a breeder in PA which I believe has received great compliments from members of this forum. My question is... when does the breeder usually send out pictures of the puppy? Also, should I be worried that I have only seen a picture of the father and not the mother of the puppy? This is such a big step for me and a big expense. I've read so many horror stories I want to do the right thing...


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

You have the right to ask for any and all information
and that includes pics and pedigree. I'm guessing this
is a show breeder since the pup is expensive. All show breeders
give out info you need and you can ask for a bile acids 
test before buying as well.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Hi and welcome!!!!
I would want to see pictures of the parents.....both of them. Are you close enough to go for a visit????
Just ask and see if they would send pictures. If you don't feel comfortable about things just ask them. The breeder should be more than willing to answer any questions, send pictures etc.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

The breeder should be willing to answer all and any questions you have and certainly show pictures and pedigrees of BOTH parents. I am so happy you posted this , I wish I would have known all I know now. I am sure if this is a reputable breeder you will no problem getting and seeing this info.
Best of luck :biggrin:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I agree with what the others have said. I am sure the breeder if reputable he/she will have no issues with showing you pictures. Don't be afraid to ask. I always welcome questions. And this is a very good question. Of course you would want to see what the mother of your future baby looks like. 

Best wishes to you and your future baby. And I can't wait to see updated pics.


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## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

Benny and Emma are from different breeders, but both are very reputable. With Benny I was able to see a picture about 3 weeks prior to getting him...and with Emma....well I flew all the way from NJ to Florida for her and did not have a picture of her! The first time I saw what she looked like was the day I went to pick her up. I think when dealing with certain breeders of a good reputation you can trust that you will get a sound, healthy maltese, but I also think if a picture will help be your deciding factor you have every right to want to see a pic first. I think it's a personal thing. I had wanted to see pics of both my pups, but also had faith and knew that if the pup wasnt' right for me, I wouldn't have to buy him/her. In the end it worked out fine with me. 

Good luck in your search for your baby!!


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## Maltipaws (Sep 29, 2005)

Breeder question: 
As a breeder this is the first thing that is emailed to a prospective buyer. A picture of parents and a picture of the litter plus a separate picture of the pup that they are interested in. A blood line is also sent along with the Vets phone number and other people's name's and number's. You can and should get this so you can call others to see how they liked the breeder and whether or not they were happy with their choice in their dog.
If you feel the breeder is hiding something I would suggest you look somewhere else. I could go on but you get the drift. Good luck in your search......


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## bonniesmom (Jun 2, 2008)

You absolutely have the right to ask all these things, as the others have said. Are you by any chance talking about Chrisman?
It sounds like you could be. If so, they have an excellent reputation for their puppies. I've met several owners of
Chrisman puppies here in NY who say that they (Chris and Manny) don't exactly have warm and fuzzy personalities, but it's
the puppy you're interested in, not having them as your best friends. Go ahead and ask for whatever you want, whether it's
these guys or someone else! :thumbsup: And by the way, :welcome1: to SM!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

QUOTE (Maltipaws @ Jun 28 2008, 05:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597678


> Breeder question:
> As a breeder this is the first thing that is emailed to a prospective buyer. A picture of parents and a picture of the litter plus a separate picture of the pup that they are interested in. A blood line is also sent along with the Vets phone number and other people's name's and number's. You can and should get this so you can call others to see how they liked the breeder and whether or not they were happy with their choice in their dog.
> If you feel the breeder is hiding something I would suggest you look somewhere else. I could go on but you get the drift. Good luck in your search......[/B]


 :goodpost: 

I post my information on my web site and direct prospective buyers there. There they can view the father and mother's pedigrees. They can view the guest book. It does seem strange that they only sent a picture of the sire. It's usually the owner of the dam that is selling the puppies. If the prospective buyer wants more pictures I get them to them as soon as possible.
I think a breeder should be more warm and fuzzy. If not then it makes me think that they are in it for money rather than getting a new home for their puppies that will treasure them for their life time. You can ask all the questions you want but if the person isn't forth coming or are robot like in giving the information it just makes me wonder..............

*EDIT:** I am not directing this at any one breeder.*


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## jlhajmom (Feb 23, 2008)

Whatever Breeder you decide to purchase from, check references (from previous buyers, not other breeders) and insist on bile acid testing results as well as a written health guarantee. I did not get this from a breeder in PA when I got my little girl and she had a liver shunt (I did not get my dog from Chrisman). It cost me thousands of dollars to get her taken care of. The breeder assumed no responsibility whatsoever. I never would have returned my girl to the breeder but a guarantee in which the breeder would have been responsible for a known genetic defect that they did not test for would have been helpful. These guarantees do exit - my mother got one from the Yorkie Breeder she got her little dog from. Also, just because a breeder is listed on the American Maltese Association breeder list does not mean they are a good breeder. When I questioned Ava's breeder about health screenings and testings, it became apparent that she was not following the AMA code of ethics.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (jlhajmom @ Jun 29 2008, 10:03 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597982


> Whatever Breeder you decide to purchase from, check references (from previous buyers, not other breeders) and insist on bile acid testing results as well as a written health guarantee. I did not get this from a breeder in PA when I got my little girl and she had a liver shunt (I did not get my dog from Chrisman). It cost me thousands of dollars to get her taken care of. The breeder assumed no responsibility whatsoever. I never would have returned my girl to the breeder but a guarantee in which the breeder would have been responsible for a known genetic defect that they did not test for would have been helpful. These guarantees do exit - my mother got one from the Yorkie Breeder she got her little dog from. Also, just because a breeder is listed on the American Maltese Association breeder list does not mean they are a good breeder. When I questioned Ava's breeder about health screenings and testings, it became apparent that she was not following the AMA code of ethics.[/B]



The AMA Code of Ethics says:

2. I will keep alert for and endeavor to control or eradicate inherited problems that are particular to my breed. I will strive to screen my breeding stock for hereditary problems using the current available and generally accepted techniques.

To say that a breeder is "not following the AMA code of ethics" is not true. There is NO genetic marker for liver shunt. While bile acid testing will tell a breeder if a shunt is present, it will not tell a breeder what the probability of producing a shunt is, even if both the sire and dam have been bile acid tested and have normal results. Unfortunately, at the present time the only way a breeder will know for sure that there is a likelihood of producing a shunt puppy is by actually producing a shunt puppy. And this is why we all (owners and breeders) are hoping and praying that a genetic marker can be found.

While I agree that it is devastating both emotionally and financially to purchase a puppy who turns out to have a liver shunt, I believe that the buyer and the breeder share equal responsibility and an agreement should be reached BEFORE the purchase is made. The Buyer should ask the breeder either to have the puppy bile acid tested before purchase or to provide a reasonable period of time (like 7 days) for the Buyer to have the puppy bile acid tested and provide terms for refund/return should it be found that the puppy has a shunt. 

MaryH


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

QUOTE


> The AMA Code of Ethics says:
> 
> 2. I will keep alert for and endeavor to control or eradicate inherited problems that are particular to my breed. I will strive to screen my breeding stock for hereditary problems using the current available and generally accepted techniques.
> 
> ...


Well said, Mary. All breeder's would like to know if they have the possibility of producing any dog with any hereitable diseases. It just doesn't exist yet.


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

I understand that testing the parents won't prevent them from producing a puppy w/ a liver shunt, but can the pups be tested before going to their new homes?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 24 2008, 03:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610384


> I understand that testing the parents won't prevent them from producing a puppy w/ a liver shunt, but can the pups be tested before going to their new homes?[/B]


Yes, Dr. Center recommends that all Maltese pippies have a bile acids test before going to thier new home.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 24 2008, 12:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610384


> I understand that testing the parents won't prevent them from producing a puppy w/ a liver shunt, but can the pups be tested before going to their new homes?[/B]


Yes they can, and they should be. It has only been a relatively short time now since we have known that a puppy should be bile acid tested before you purchase it, or immediately after arriving home with a written guarantee that if they have high bile acids you should be able to return it with full refund or decide to keep it yourself with the agreement stating what happens then and what the breeder will be responsible for. How great or popular the breeder is does not matter. The fact that they state they haven't knowingly had a dog or known of one in the pup's pedigree that was either an MVD dog or shunt dog doesn't count. The way the genetic factor is past there could be no known 'effected' (knowingly ill) dogs in the pedigree, especially since there has not been a way to diagnose the problem unless the dog became deathly ill with shunt. MicroVascular Dysplasia (MVD) is basically smaller blood vessels within the liver which are shunted. In this case the dog may be healthy with the right diet and care or later in life have a problem. It is something you want to know about before excepting a puppy. Since we didn't know how to test for this and the puppies don't look ill, there are now about 60% of all purebred Maltese with this problem.

If you haven't already read the threads posted here about MVD please do so. There is a lot of very good cutting edge info here on the subject--most of it from the researcher and expert in the field of canine MVD and Shunt--Dr. Sharon A. Center at Cornell.

I personally think there are lots of sweet/fuzzy people breeding dogs that you would love to have as friends, but they may not be as knowledgable on this subject as they should be. There are also some personalities you don't care for that may do bile acid testing and stay up on the lastest health problems of the breed. Then some know about the problem but don't want to know if their dogs are effected because it could mean loosing some of their best producers. I and most of you probably would love to love your breeder and fully trust in their knowledge and honesty, but that does not mean we as pet owners shouldn't be proactive about the health of our best friend to be. We should be able to do both,--like the person we purchase from and still get all the answers. I would be happy with a breeder who when questioned about bile acid testing would say 'I don't know anything about it but lets do it.'  

I let my vet tell me if we ran a complete blood screen on my new puppy and his liver enzymes were normal, we didn't need a bile acids test. I found out the hard way that is not true. All vets do not know about the problem of MVD. They look for shunt only, and only if the dog is obviously sick. Many of us have had to educate our vets on the subject of bile acid testing and the Protein C test if bile acids are high. Don't be surprised if that happens.


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks for the informative posts. I will definitely check out the posts about MVD. B)


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 24 2008, 05:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610454


> Thanks for the informative posts. I will definitely check out the posts about MVD. B)[/B]


I do want to add that Dr Center has established that it is best to wait until the puppy is at least 18 weeks of age before a breeder test them. That testing before then can give a false negative. 

Best wishes once again.


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## Moxie'smom (Dec 16, 2007)

QUOTE (bonniesmom @ Jun 28 2008, 06:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597684


> You absolutely have the right to ask all these things, as the others have said. Are you by any chance talking about Chrisman?
> It sounds like you could be. If so, they have an excellent reputation for their puppies. I've met several owners of
> Chrisman puppies here in NY who say that they (Chris and Manny) don't exactly have warm and fuzzy personalities, but it's
> the puppy you're interested in, not having them as your best friends. Go ahead and ask for whatever you want, whether it's
> these guys or someone else! :thumbsup: And by the way, :welcome1: to SM![/B]



If you are talking about Chrisman Maltese. The above posting is very true. Although I talk to Chris from time to time, they are not my "best friends", but they do have amazing puppies, are very, very knowledgeable. They even have a questionnaire now that you have to fill out before you talk to them. They interview extensively and want to make sure their puppies, although not inexpensive, do go to the right kind of homes. In other words, they give a darn about who they are selling their fluffs to. It's not about the money they make. 
Moxie as well as a bunch of other SM'ers have amazing pups from them. I didn't see pictures of both of Moxie's parents, but you do have the right to ask any breeder, and you should. However if it is Chrisman maltese, I wouldn't worry.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (Clabec Maltese @ Jul 24 2008, 07:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610469


> QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 24 2008, 05:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610454





> Thanks for the informative posts. I will definitely check out the posts about MVD. B)[/B]


I do want to add that Dr Center has established that it is best to wait until the puppy is at least 18 weeks of age before a breeder test them. That testing before then can give a false negative. 

Best wishes once again.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Dr. Center says test at 4 mos of age in her handout and at our Specialty last year said "ideal age is 4 mos. but if a puppy is being sold at 12 weeks of age then test as close to the sale date as possible." She never said anything about false positive results at any age. I brought 14.5 week old puppies to Cornell for testing in June, Dr. Center knew their age, she picked the date, and I doubt very much (knowing it's an 8 hour drive each way and an overnight stay for me) that she would suggest bringing puppies for testing that might come back with false positives.

MaryH


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## Moxie'smom (Dec 16, 2007)

QUOTE (Tina @ Jun 28 2008, 08:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=597732


> I think the breeder should be more warm and fuzzy. If not then it makes me think that they are in it for money rather than getting a new home for their puppies that will treasure them for their life time. You can ask all the questions you want but if the person isn't forth coming or are robot like in giving the information it just makes me wonder..............
> *EDIT:** I am not directing this at any one breeder.*[/B]


"I don't necessarily agree with the warm and fuzzy part and if not they're all about making money" part. I bought from a breeder that was NOT warm and fuzzy. I'm more interested in looking for a smart intelligent breeder who has a passion for breeding and can point to amazing blood lines, and has bred not only amazing show dogs, but quality pets for Many, Many Many years. :thumbsup:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jul 24 2008, 10:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610639


> QUOTE (Clabec Maltese @ Jul 24 2008, 07:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610469





> QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 24 2008, 05:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=610454





> Thanks for the informative posts. I will definitely check out the posts about MVD. B)[/B]


I do want to add that Dr Center has established that it is best to wait until the puppy is at least 18 weeks of age before a breeder test them. That testing before then can give a false _negative._ 

Best wishes once again.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Dr. Center says test at 4 mos of age in her handout and at our Specialty last year said "ideal age is 4 mos. but if a puppy is being sold at 12 weeks of age then test as close to the sale date as possible." She never said anything about false positive results at any age. I brought 14.5 week old puppies to Cornell for testing in June, Dr. Center knew their age, she picked the date, and I doubt very much (knowing it's an 8 hour drive each way and an overnight stay for me) that she would suggest bringing puppies for testing that might come back with false _positives._

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]


Forgive my adding capabilities yesterday but I did intend 16 weeks in my first post. I was going on no sleep so I got my brain twisted. :brownbag:

When I myself spoke with Dr Center over the phone on Wed she told me that their is a possablity that the organs are not completely developed and that can give a false positive. That it is best to wait until the puppy is 4 months of age and no earlier due to this fact. I was not at the nationals last year. And have been reading what she had said in her handout. But until she explained the importance and as to the reason why I did not do it. Will I wait until 4 months now. Heck yes. As a matter of fact I have a puppy that was tested at 12 weeks of age. She is now 7 months and I will be getting in touch with this family to have her retested. BTW I said false negative, not false positive.


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