# Dubious "breeders"



## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

Do any of you read consumer reports magazine? When buying something new, I often go to consumer reports to educated myself about the product (s) in question.

I look at the reviews, the reputation, quiality and reliability. From there, I make an educated decision on the product.

How is it that fluffs are different, I would think that the fluffs fall into a higher priority category - then, lets say, a washer or automobile.

So, when a person comes to this site, and claims that the breeder that they purchased their fluff from - was dubious, dishonest and irresponsible - wouldn’t you think that it would be wise to expose this breeder - to spare not only another potential owner - but the fluffs themselves?

Even if this so-called "breeder" has "folded shop" - we all know that most will open in another town, on the internet, etc. etc.

I understand the legal ramifications of slander, and I am certainly not condoning that in the least - However, I think that it’s incongruous to make statements how bad something is/was without a follow through to protect others from becoming victims.

I know the pain of losing a fluff, it is sharp, deep and relentless pain. I would do anything humanly possible, to spare a person from this kind of hurt. 

This is certainly not intended to cause "drama" - I think that being over the age of ten, persons can have conversations on an adult level, with contradictory views, while maintaining composure.

Thank you,

Allie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I agree in principle and wish it could work out that we could do this. I think the difference between this and CR is that Consumer Reports is (supposedly) unbiased and not personally involved in the company. For example, if the CR investigator had a personal disagreement with the mfg. then they probably wouldn't be the one doing the report on them.

I think there are a couple ways to look at it. In a lot of cases of breeder issues, it is black and white .. the breeder was awful .. period. But then in other situations there are two sides to the story and only one side would be heard here; or if the breeder jumped in, too, SM would be in the position of hosting a debate/argument between breeder and buyer and of course that would be unpleasant for all. 

And in some cases here, we have breeders that people have had fabulous experiences with and others who have not had great experiences with them. It might end up that members would be debating the issue and emotions would be high.

I wish there was a way that we could get breeder info out there but I'm not sure how ..


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

There is a place where ANYONE can post poor performing business' no matter the subject. Some people know about it, others have never heard of it it's - www.ripoffreport.com .


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Allie, I agree with much of what you say. However, an automobile or washing machine or any other number of non-living things can be tested in a controlled environment and something works or it doesn't. We cannot do that with dogs. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to rating breeders. You may have had a horrid experience with the same breeder that I had a fabulous experience with. I'm not a big advocate of airing clean or dirty laundry on the internet. But if I have FIRST-HAND knowledge that I thought someone would benefit by I would not hesitate to PM or email that person.


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

Perhaps the analogy wasn’t the best - CR vs Fluffs -

My point is/was that when a person states that they had a puppy for eight-months and that the puppy died from congenital issues. Is it unacceptable to warn others of this "breeders" ethics?

Especially, after the person stated that the "breeder" in question "closed shop"

I dunno.


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## mary-anderson (Jan 12, 2010)

MaryH said:


> Allie, I agree with much of what you say. However, an automobile or washing machine or any other number of non-living things can be tested in a controlled environment and something works or it doesn't. We cannot do that with dogs. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to rating breeders. You may have had a horrid experience with the same breeder that I had a fabulous experience with. I'm not a big advocate of airing clean or dirty laundry on the internet. But if I have FIRST-HAND knowledge that I thought someone would benefit by I would not hesitate to PM or email that person.


:goodpost:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Sandcastles said:


> Perhaps the analogy wasn’t the best - CR vs Fluffs -
> 
> My point is/was that when a person states that they had a puppy for eight-months and that the puppy died from congenital issues. Is it unacceptable to warn others of this "breeders" ethics?
> 
> ...


It is absolutely acceptable that the OP in that thread chose not to name the breeder. She came to us asking for help finding a healthy Maltese from a show breeder, not to start drama with her first post by trashing her other breeder. 

She said that the breeder in question sold all her dogs and is no longer breeding. She also stated that she chose not to share the name. She is moving forward, not looking back. We should respect her decision. 

I love newbies like her who ask our help in finding a reputable breeder. I pray she hasn't been scared off by the few who are publicly demanding she name her other breeder and questioning whether or not she is "genuine".


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Sandcastles said:


> Perhaps the analogy wasn’t the best - CR vs Fluffs -
> 
> My point is/was that when a person states that they had a puppy for eight-months and that the puppy died from congenital issues. Is it unacceptable to warn others of this "breeders" ethics?
> 
> ...


Whether a person is still in business or has closed up shop, the subjectivenes of "good vs bad" is still there. Airing laundry on a public forum is, as far as I'm concerned, counterproductive to getting good information out there. Keeping it private is a much better approach in my humble opinion. How many times over the years have we seen a "bad news" post by someone saying "my breeder blah blah" or "my dog has blah blah". And not long after the post disappears or is edited beyond all recognition? Why? Hmmmm. Some breeders have an obvious presence on this forum, some breeders lurk, and some breeders have their SM member/friends report back to them. So you post something like "I'm thinking of getting a dog from Breeder X. Any thoughts?" and someone responds with "I got one from Breeder X and did not have a good experience [insert sad story here]." Next thing that happens is the poster of the sad story gets a phone call from Breeder X saying "How dare you? I will sue you." and the post gets removed. Or the Admin Team gets an email from Breeder X saying "Remove the thread or I'll sue." and, poof, the thread is gone. So isn't hitting the PM button the better way to get good info out in a discreet manner without the threat of repurcussion? If more people used the PM button about their FIRST-HAND negative experiences, there would be far less of those happening. But it takes all of us to create an environment that makes good people feel safe.


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

Ladysmom said:


> It is absolutely acceptable that the OP in that thread chose not to name the breeder. She came to us asking for help finding a healthy Maltese from a show breeder, not to start drama with her first post by trashing her other breeder.
> 
> She said that the breeder in question sold all her dogs and is no longer breeding. She also stated that she chose not to share the name. She is moving forward, not looking back. We should respect her decision.
> 
> I love newbies like her who ask our help in finding a reputable breeder. I pray she hasn't been scared off by the few who are publicly demanding she name her other breeder and questioning whether or not she is "genuine".


I think that perhaps you have misunderstood my concerns -

I, in no way, whatsoever - "demanded" anything from anyone - and I never indicated that a person wasn’t "genuine" 

I have seen over the past few months photo’s of dogs that are suffering terribly because of these so called "breeders" - that was my ONLY concern.

You know, like little Ginger with maggots - being rescued at the 11th hour - things like that Marj keep me awake at night. 

That’s what I was attempting to do, help expose scum-bags that breed for greed, and leave helpless fluffs in the cold to die.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> It is absolutely acceptable that the OP in that thread chose not to name the breeder. She came to us asking for help finding a healthy Maltese from a show breeder, not to start drama with her first post by trashing her other breeder.
> 
> She said that the breeder in question sold all her dogs and is no longer breeding. She also stated that she chose not to share the name. She is moving forward, not looking back. We should respect her decision.
> 
> I love newbies like her who ask our help in finding a reputable breeder. I pray she hasn't been scared off by the few who are publicly demanding she name her other breeder and questioning whether or not she is "genuine".


Poor Allie asked whether it was "unacceptable to warn others". Where did "drama" and "trashing" come from?? This is exactly what I'm talking about in my response where I said *"But it takes all of us to create an environment that makes good people feel safe."*


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Sandcastles said:


> I think that perhaps you have misunderstood my concerns -
> 
> I, in no way, whatsoever - "demanded" anything from anyone - and I never indicated that a person wasn’t "genuine"
> 
> ...


Not sure it's a 'breed for greed' scenario but more having health issues in a line and deciding it's not worth breeding anymore and 'closing up shop'. I have more respect for that than the breeders who continue breeding dogs from lines that have given them serious health issues.

ETA: I am not 'defending' the breeder in question in any way. But I'd rather see a breeder not breed anymore than breed unhealthy lines.


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

MaryH said:


> Whether a person is still in business or has closed up shop, the subjectivenes of "good vs bad" is still there. Airing laundry on a public forum is, as far as I'm concerned, counterproductive to getting good information out there. Keeping it private is a much better approach in my humble opinion. How many times over the years have we seen a "bad news" post by someone saying "my breeder blah blah" or "my dog has blah blah". And not long after the post disappears or is edited beyond all recognition? Why? Hmmmm. Some breeders have an obvious presence on this forum, some breeders lurk, and some breeders have their SM member/friends report back to them. So you post something like "I'm thinking of getting a dog from Breeder X. Any thoughts?" and someone responds with "I got one from Breeder X and did not have a good experience [insert sad story here]." Next thing that happens is the poster of the sad story gets a phone call from Breeder X saying "How dare you? I will sue you." and the post gets removed. Or the Admin Team gets an email from Breeder X saying "Remove the thread or I'll sue." and, poof, the thread is gone. So isn't hitting the PM button the better way to get good info out in a discreet manner without the threat of repurcussion? If more people used the PM button about their FIRST-HAND negative experiences, there would be far less of those happening. But it takes all of us to create an environment that makes good people feel safe.


 
Mary, 

"The Art of Articulation" certainly applies to you, Mary.

Thank you for explaining this to me in a non-confrontational way.

I deeply appreciate it.

Allie


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Sandcastles said:


> Mary,
> 
> "The Art of Articulation" certainly applies to you, Mary.
> 
> ...


 
Oh dear Allie, I know where your heart is and I understand. But on an open public fourum, with this topic, it's so difficult. Sometimes, there's one side of a situtation, that someone post about, and that was their personal view, but may not be accurate. It could go wrong in so many ways, but your thought process, is right from the heart, in saving any suffering for anymore fur-babies.

Thankfully, in that specific case, the breeder is no longer breeding, that is a huge plus.

I do understand completely where your heart is coming from.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm glad this was brought up. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Maltese Only" website. There is a list of reputable breeders on that site that can be purchased for $5. The breeders are listed by state. There is also a special Feedback forum where people can anonymously post their experiences with the breeders good or bad. Anyone can read the comments but the list has to be purchased to see who the breeders are. (you get a pin#) Only the facts can be posted. It is a good system that has worked well for several years. This is how I found my breeder. There were many comments from people who had purchased Malts from her, and all of them were great. Reputations good or bad get around and the most reliable information like Mary H said, should be from someone who has actually purchased a dog from said breeder. Emotions, gossip, and back-biting need to be kept out of it. (sometimes I have to bite my tongue!:HistericalSmiley Breeders are not gods. Sometimes things go wrong without the breeder's intention. The best contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder. Perhaps we could do a feedback forum on this site. To get an idea of how it works go to: Maltese Dog Breeder Feedback/Comments


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

Many of us here are well aware of MO :HistericalSmiley: - and are here b/c we've been booted from it for posting something the site owner Jay Bianco disapproved of. For me it was posting where I bought little scrunchies, and barretts - I really ought to thank him for it, otherwise I wouldn't have found SM! If MO's owner was really interested in providing information about Maltese breeders he wouldn't be CHARGING for the AMA list you can get for $0, or the list you referenced. I'll get off my soapbox about MO now...









A prospective buyer of any breed has to do some homework. Choose a few breeders, talk to them, ask for a list of other parents, etc., and whittle down from there. With the net being so accessable these days, it's easy to find breeders,but you have to be careful and know what to watch out for. There are sooo many who are brokers, greeders, millers. I call them internet land mines.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This is pinned in the Breeders section and an excellent resource for anyone looking for a Maltese puppy.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97845-maltese-breeders-how-find-evaulate.html


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Starsmom said:


> Many of us here are well aware of MO :HistericalSmiley: - and are here b/c we've been booted from it for posting something the site owner Jay Bianco disapproved of. For me it was posting where I bought little scrunchies, and barretts - I really ought to thank him for it, otherwise I wouldn't have found SM! If MO's owner was really interested in providing information about Maltese breeders he wouldn't be CHARGING for the AMA list you can get for $0, or the list you referenced. I'll get off my soapbox about MO now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doing homework is a given, in my opinion. I was simply suggesting an ethical way to give feedback on breeders. I think MO does an excellent job with this and that we could learn from it.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

aprilb said:


> I'm glad this was brought up. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Maltese Only" website. There is a list of reputable breeders on that site that can be purchased for $5. The breeders are listed by state. There is also a special Feedback forum where people can anonymously post their experiences with the breeders good or bad. Anyone can read the comments but the list has to be purchased to see who the breeders are. (you get a pin#) Only the facts can be posted. It is a good system that has worked well for several years. This is how I found my breeder. There were many comments from people who had purchased Malts from her, and all of them were great. Reputations good or bad get around and the most reliable information like Mary H said, should be from someone who has actually purchased a dog from said breeder. Emotions, gossip, and back-biting need to be kept out of it. (sometimes I have to bite my tongue!:HistericalSmiley Breeders are not gods. Sometimes things go wrong without the breeder's intention. The best contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder. Perhaps we could do a feedback forum on this site. To get an idea of how it works go to: Maltese Dog Breeder Feedback/Comments





Starsmom said:


> Many of us here are well aware of MO :HistericalSmiley: - and are here b/c we've been booted from it for posting something the site owner Jay Bianco disapproved of. For me it was posting where I bought little scrunchies, and barretts - I really ought to thank him for it, otherwise I wouldn't have found SM! If MO's owner was really interested in providing information about Maltese breeders he wouldn't be CHARGING for the AMA list you can get for $0, or the list you referenced. I'll get off my soapbox about MO now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No breeder list, whether it costs $0 or $100, is perfect. It's a research tool. No "what to look for in a breeder" list is perfect. It's a research tool. No website is perfect. Anyone can make a website or have one made to give the appearance of being one thing while the reality might be something completely different. I would caution anyone to be careful of a feedback forum where people can post anonymously, especially on a moderated discussion forum. Information shared anonymously on a moderated forum may only be as trustworthy as the person(s) sharing information and/or moderating the forum. I started out by first determining what was important to me. I went to dog shows to get a sense of what I wanted in a dog. I spoke with breeders to get a sense of the ongoing relationship I could expect to have with that breeder. I visited with puppies because it was important to me to see them, hold them, and play with them before I made a lifelong commitment. There is no perfect recipe. For me personally, buying a dog sight unseen was out of the question. Luckily things worked out well for me and I've had no regrets.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

aprilb said:


> I'm glad this was brought up. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Maltese Only" website. There is a list of reputable breeders on that site that can be purchased for $5. The breeders are listed by state. There is also a special Feedback forum where people can anonymously post their experiences with the breeders good or bad. Anyone can read the comments but the list has to be purchased to see who the breeders are. (you get a pin#) Only the facts can be posted. It is a good system that has worked well for several years. This is how I found my breeder. There were many comments from people who had purchased Malts from her, and all of them were great. Reputations good or bad get around and the most reliable information like Mary H said, should be from someone who has actually purchased a dog from said breeder. Emotions, gossip, and back-biting need to be kept out of it. (sometimes I have to bite my tongue!:HistericalSmiley Breeders are not gods. Sometimes things go wrong without the breeder's intention. The best contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder. Perhaps we could do a feedback forum on this site. To get an idea of how it works go to: Maltese Dog Breeder Feedback/Comments


Yep, many of us old timers are familiar with him and his site and wouldn't give him one cent of our money. :angry::yucky::thmbdn:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Ladysmom said:


> This is pinned in the Breeders section and an excellent resource for anyone looking for a Maltese puppy.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97845-maltese-breeders-how-find-evaulate.html


While this is helpful in evaluating breeders, there is little info on who are the reputable breeders. The AMA list is an incomplete list. The breeders affiliated with AMA decide whether or not they want to be on the list. There are other AMA breeders out there that are NOT on the AMA list.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Not sure it's a 'breed for greed' scenario but more having health issues in a line and deciding it's not worth breeding anymore and 'closing up shop'. I have more respect for that than the breeders who continue breeding dogs from lines that have given them serious health issues.
> 
> ETA: I am not 'defending' the breeder in question in any way. But I'd rather see a breeder not breed anymore than breed unhealthy lines.


 
Stacy, you've made an EXCELLENT point. I personally know more than one person (and they are GOOD people) who have totally gotten out of breeding because they thought they were doing the right thing, thought they were working with good dogs from good sources, and unexpectedly got hit hard with health problems. For some it was so emotionally as well as financially devastating that the only way they could heal the wounds was to get out of breeding.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

aprilb said:


> While"]http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97845-maltese-breeders-how-find-evaulate.html


While[/URL] this is helpful in evaluating breeders, there is little info on who are the reputable breeders. The AMA list is an incomplete list. The breeders affiliated with AMA decide whether or not they want to be on the list. There are other AMA breeders out there that are NOT on the AMA list. [/QUOTE]

I am not a big fan of the term reputable because reputation does not speak to ethics. There are a number of people who have famous "reputations" that I would not go anywhere near for a dog. There are a number of other breeders who are not well known, but who are doing an excellent job trying their best to produce healthy, loving and ideal companion dogs. 

I prefer to use the term ethics. And frankly there is never an easy way to judge someone's ethics. You have to do your homework. A lot of homework. My advice truly is to learn what questions to ask, consider what matters to you and meet the person either face to face at shows or in their home or in some way that you can get as assured as possible that they are being straight up front with you. 

The AMA list is very much incomplete. It does only include those breeders who self-select and pay extra to be on it. Breeders who do not have frequent litters are less likely to wish to participate. However, active membership and participation in breed clubs and shows is one way to measure a breeder's commitment to breeding. This is one reason why I encourage people looking for a puppy to go to shows where they can meet breeders and see the dogs in person. 

I don't see a list of good and bad "reputations" as the mission of this forum. I see this forum as a tool to learn and to help you decide for yourself what is important. Ideally, I wish everyone who was interested in buying a puppy would read as much as they can about what makes an ethical breeder and then I wish they would try to go to shows and find the breeders near them who are living up to those standards.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> While[/URL] this is helpful in evaluating breeders, there is little info on who are the reputable breeders. The AMA list is an incomplete list. The breeders affiliated with AMA decide whether or not they want to be on the list. There are other AMA breeders out there that are NOT on the AMA list.


I am not a big fan of the term reputable because reputation does not speak to ethics. There are a number of people who have famous "reputations" that I would not go anywhere near for a dog. There are a number of other breeders who are not well known, but who are doing an excellent job trying their best to produce healthy, loving and ideal companion dogs. 

I prefer to use the term ethics. And frankly there is never an easy way to judge someone's ethics. You have to do your homework. A lot of homework. My advice truly is to learn what questions to ask, consider what matters to you and meet the person either face to face at shows or in their home or in some way that you can get as assured as possible that they are being straight up front with you. 

The AMA list is very much incomplete. It does only include those breeders who self-select and pay extra to be on it. Breeders who do not have frequent litters are less likely to wish to participate. However, active membership and participation in breed clubs and shows is one way to measure a breeder's commitment to breeding. This is one reason why I encourage people looking for a puppy to go to shows where they can meet breeders and see the dogs in person. 

I don't see a list of good and bad "reputations" as the mission of this forum. I see this forum as a tool to learn and to help you decide for yourself what is important. Ideally, I wish everyone who was interested in buying a puppy would read as much as they can about what makes an ethical breeder and then I wish they would try to go to shows and find the breeders near them who are living up to those standards.[/QUOTE]


:goodpost: How would find out about these lesser known ethical breeders if there aren't maltese shown in the dog shows around them? Case in point, where i live there is usually only one dog show a year and i have yet to see a maltese there the one entry has never shown up. I would love to go to dog shows where maltese are being shown that way i can get to know the breeders and unfortunately i can't travel several hours away to shows.

I have to agree that i too like the term "Ethical" versus "Reputable" and you cannot always go by what is on the AMA list.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

mysugarbears said:


> I am not a big fan of the term reputable because reputation does not speak to ethics. There are a number of people who have famous "reputations" that I would not go anywhere near for a dog. There are a number of other breeders who are not well known, but who are doing an excellent job trying their best to produce healthy, loving and ideal companion dogs.
> 
> I prefer to use the term ethics. And frankly there is never an easy way to judge someone's ethics. You have to do your homework. A lot of homework. My advice truly is to learn what questions to ask, consider what matters to you and meet the person either face to face at shows or in their home or in some way that you can get as assured as possible that they are being straight up front with you.
> 
> ...


 
:goodpost: How would find out about these lesser known ethical breeders if there aren't maltese shown in the dog shows around them? Case in point, where i live there is usually only one dog show a year and i have yet to see a maltese there the one entry has never shown up. I would love to go to dog shows where maltese are being shown that way i can get to know the breeders and unfortunately i can't travel several hours away to shows.

I have to agree that i too like the term "Ethical" versus "Reputable" and you cannot always go by what is on the AMA list.[/QUOTE]

Debbie,

I don't know what you consider to be several hours away but if are able to you might want to consider the upcoming shows in Montgomery, AL, Nov 26-28 (Thanksgiving weekend). I realize Montgomery is not in your backyard and would make for a rather long day (Mapquest says 2 hrs. 40 mins. driving time each way), but last year there were 7 dogs shown on Friday, 6 on Saturday and 6 on Sunday. Entries for these upcoming shows close this Wednesday, November 10. The entry breakdown should be posted by next Friday on Onofrio's website (www.onofrio.com). Generally if there is only one class dog entered it won't be shown. If you find that there are 3 or more dogs and/or bitches entered at least some of them will generally be shown.

I know I sound like a broken record because I'm always suggesting that people go to dog shows. But it's really a good opportunity for breeder and buyer to meet in a neutral place where everybody can relax and nobody feels like they are being inspected. If you and the breeder like what you see in dogs and people, then you can arrange a mutually convenient time to visit with available puppies.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

k: :yield::wine:


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

MaryH said:


> :goodpost: How would find out about these lesser known ethical breeders if there aren't maltese shown in the dog shows around them? Case in point, where i live there is usually only one dog show a year and i have yet to see a maltese there the one entry has never shown up. I would love to go to dog shows where maltese are being shown that way i can get to know the breeders and unfortunately i can't travel several hours away to shows.
> 
> I have to agree that i too like the term "Ethical" versus "Reputable" and you cannot always go by what is on the AMA list.


Debbie,

I don't know what you consider to be several hours away but if are able to you might want to consider the upcoming shows in Montgomery, AL, Nov 26-28 (Thanksgiving weekend). I realize Montgomery is not in your backyard and would make for a rather long day (Mapquest says 2 hrs. 40 mins. driving time each way), but last year there were 7 dogs shown on Friday, 6 on Saturday and 6 on Sunday. Entries for these upcoming shows close this Wednesday, November 10. The entry breakdown should be posted by next Friday on Onofrio's website (www.onofrio.com). Generally if there is only one class dog entered it won't be shown. If you find that there are 3 or more dogs and/or bitches entered at least some of them will generally be shown.

I know I sound like a broken record because I'm always suggesting that people go to dog shows. But it's really a good opportunity for breeder and buyer to meet in a neutral place where everybody can relax and nobody feels like they are being inspected. If you and the breeder like what you see in dogs and people, then you can arrange a mutually convenient time to visit with available puppies.[/QUOTE]


Thank you Mary, Montgomery is only about 2 1/2 hours from me so hopefully i'll be able to make it up to the show that weekend. 

I don't think you sound like a broken record, what your saying makes complete sense. I look it as your trying to help potential owners find an "Ethical" breeder and get to know the lesser known breeders that have excellent pups available.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

aprilb said:


> I'm glad this was brought up. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the "Maltese Only" website. There is a list of reputable breeders on that site that can be purchased for $5. The breeders are listed by state. There is also a special Feedback forum where people can anonymously post their experiences with the breeders good or bad. Anyone can read the comments but the list has to be purchased to see who the breeders are. (you get a pin#) Only the facts can be posted. It is a good system that has worked well for several years. This is how I found my breeder. There were many comments from people who had purchased Malts from her, and all of them were great. Reputations good or bad get around and the most reliable information like Mary H said, should be from someone who has actually purchased a dog from said breeder. Emotions, gossip, and back-biting need to be kept out of it. (sometimes I have to bite my tongue!:HistericalSmiley Breeders are not gods. Sometimes things go wrong without the breeder's intention. The best contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder. Perhaps we could do a feedback forum on this site. To get an idea of how it works go to: Maltese Dog Breeder Feedback/Comments


I can tell you for sure that MO does not check out the complaint and posts it as if it is true. A dear friend was placed on that list because a buyer was dissatisfied and wanted to trash her. This buyer was offered the purchase of the puppy back. The buyer would not have been satisfied no matter what my friend would have done. Needless to say my friend was devastated, because she strives to breed a nice healthy Maltese. 
Only breeders get on the MO list if the Mrs approves of you. It is very one sided and it isn't all ways the right side. People with power like to use it and MO is one of those. JMO


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

aprilb said:


> While"]http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97845-maltese-breeders-how-find-evaulate.html


While[/URL] this is helpful in evaluating breeders, there is little info on who are the reputable breeders. The AMA list is an incomplete list. The breeders affiliated with AMA decide whether or not they want to be on the list. There are other AMA breeders out there that are NOT on the AMA list. [/QUOTE]

First, I just want to say, your two little girls are so darn cute.

As far as MO, I was never a member, however, when loosing my Kara, I was devestated, jumped on the internet, was so excited that their was a list of breeders. I actually thought it was the AMA list, I didn't know, but it's the American Breeder List. I happyily paid the $5, for the MO list, thinking, and so happy that it's a start and I am going in the right direction. I used the list as a guide, *and just from my own personal experience, *now this is going back over two years ago, so it since may have changed, I would not reccommend the list to anyone, just based on my experience and the homework (home visits and such) that I did after getting the list. I did not interact with all on that list, to be fair, but still would not reccomend the list, even if it were free.

I think the AMA is a good place to start, but there again, WONDERFUL breeders are not on there, and with any list, you still have to do your own follow-up. Meaning, visit, see the pups, the parents, meet the breeder.
I think dog shows would be a wonderful place to get to know the breeders and see their dogs (after they are done showing, not while they are grooming , and if you click with someone, then you can start from there. Oh how I would love to go to a dog show. I'll get there someday.

AprilB, all of this is just a general statement and as I said I adore your little girls :wub:

I too, like the term Ethical vs. Reputable.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

aprilb said:


> I think MO is now owned by Chrisman Maltese but I no longer use the forum.
> 
> Doing homework is a given, in my opinion. I was simply suggesting an ethical way to give feedback on breeders. I think MO does an excellent job with this and that we could learn from it.


It has been my understanding that relationship (Chrisman) was relitavely short lived, and Jay once again is the owner. Not using that forum is a wise move on your part. 



k/c mom said:


> Yep, many of us old timers are familiar with him and his site and wouldn't give him one cent of our money. :angry::yucky::thmbdn:


You're right on about that Sher!


















Tina said:


> I can tell you for sure that MO does not check out the complaint and posts it as if it is true. A dear friend was placed on that list because a buyer was dissatisfied and wanted to trash her. This buyer was offered the purchase of the puppy back. The buyer would not have been satisfied no matter what my friend would have done. Needless to say my friend was devastated, because she strives to breed a nice healthy Maltese.
> *Only breeders get on the MO list if the Mrs approves of you*. It is very one sided and it isn't all ways the right side. People with power like to use it and MO is one of those. JMO


Does not suprise me - it's a VERY autocratic site.







Sorry about your friend being trashed.



CloudClan said:


> While[/URL] this is helpful in evaluating breeders, there is little info on who are the reputable breeders. The AMA list is an incomplete list. The breeders affiliated with AMA decide whether or not they want to be on the list. There are other AMA breeders out there that are NOT on the AMA list.


*I am not a big fan of the term reputable because reputation does not speak to ethics.* There are a number of people who have famous "reputations" that I would not go anywhere near for a dog. There are a number of other breeders who are not well known, but who are doing an excellent job trying their best to produce healthy, loving and ideal companion dogs. 

*I prefer to use the term ethics*. And frankly there is never an easy way to judge someone's ethics. You have to do your homework. A lot of homework. My advice truly is to learn what questions to ask, consider what matters to you and meet the person either face to face at shows or in their home or in some way that you can get as assured as possible that they are being straight up front with you. 

The AMA list is very much incomplete. It does only include those breeders who self-select and pay extra to be on it. Breeders who do not have frequent litters are less likely to wish to participate. However, active membership and participation in breed clubs and shows is one way to measure a breeder's commitment to breeding. This is one reason why I encourage people looking for a puppy to go to shows where they can meet breeders and see the dogs in person. 

I don't see a list of good and bad "reputations" as the mission of this forum. I see this forum as a tool to learn and to help you decide for yourself what is important. Ideally, I wish everyone who was interested in buying a puppy would read as much as they can about what makes an ethical breeder and then I wish they would try to go to shows and find the breeders near them who are living up to those standards.[/QUOTE]

Of course you are right...In my mind, when using the word reputable, I think reputable and ethical are synonmous.


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## ParisandRio (Nov 5, 2010)

*TIME FOR ME TO PUT IT OUT THERE-- the WHOLE TRUTH*

Valid concerns have been raised here and in PMs. I have been reluctant to answer with the breeder's name or her kennel's name, thinking that she HAS gone out of business forever, but I have no way to know that this is true. She has lied about many things. Her lies have changed, depending on how disordered her thinking was on any given day.

I know that there are members here who have bought and raised her puppies and love them like their children. I also own two healthy Maltese from her and love them dearly. *This does NOT negate the facts that I will attempt to reiterate here concisely.* She did have good breeding stock for a long time and produced pretty dogs. She bought out a maltese breeder who started breeding yorkies.. THAT lady was the person who showed most of the dogs and attained champion titles. Not Claudia. She bought champion adults. 

*Her name is Claudia Graham. Husband and co-owner is Steve Graham. In the DFW metroplex suburbs. Kennel name is/ was Divinity Maltese.*

I have had 2 people contact me from other states because their Divinity babies were dying from liver problems, They had read my posts when I first got my boys and had posted about how great Claudia was on another forum. Both of their dogs were adult dogs, and Claudia would not help them either. *AND before ANYONE tries to say that she didn't have the money, let me tell you-- she had MANY young, healthy champion Maltese dogs which belonged to her at the time. She could have sold some and helped us. She could have bred the healthy ones and given us each a puppy. She did neither.* 

Yes, my dogs were beautiful beyond words and were very expensive considering what Divinity Maltese was. Over $2500 per male puppy. The other would be exceedingly beautiful if he had lived to grow up.. And we own an adult dog of Claudia's, a finished AKC champion, who had extreme behavioral problems related to her years spent in a cage, only able to use the bathroom on Claudia's schedule, having circling behaviors which are usually not able to be stopped.. She is now 4 years old, and is finally well- adjusted, will lie on her back for tummy rubs, will give kisses, does not circle, is so happy she jumps straight up off the floor with joy, and her big beautiful eyes show the utter thrill of truly LIVING again. We spent $2300 just to BUY her. Unspayed and 6 weeks post partum after her 3rd C Section at age 2. That poor pitiful baby girl needed us.. I wonder how many of the hoarded adults didn't fare as well...

*I do not know if Claudia stopped her breeding or merely took "a break". There was a poster named "ShannonB" who is her daughter in law. Shanon and Claudia's son raise GSDs for profit.* Shannon once let it slip that Claudia's sister has one of the dogs Claudia listed as "sold" on her website. I believe this particular dog would be too old to breed now, but many others, like about 10 females and at least 7 males would not be too old. *The reason given publicly on the dog board for the " break" was that Shannon and hubby were having Claudia's first grandchild about a year ago. *

Claudia did NOT have her dogs shown. She bought Champions. She had 2 dogs which she invested a year into getting champion status.. Nicky and Noelle. Brother and sister. She didn't like them at all after they returned to her off the show circuit. She told me as much.

This is a very disturbed person to hoard dogs in spare rooms behind closed doors with the blinds closed and an 8 foot solid fence. Prospective buyers were allowed to come inside a beautiful house..2 rooms of a beautiful house, that is.. And loud barking and howling could be heard throughout the rest of the house. It was never addressed. At one time on her website, she had over a dozen female breeders and 8 males at stud.. Yet, she didn't sell many puppies. She KEPT them.. to breed... it truly was a bad situation. She could not let go of her dogs and puppies until something bad started happening with the health of SOME of the dogs she had sold. Then she freaked. Said the ASPCA was going to get her. Said there were helicopters flying over, taking photos of all the dogs outdoors together. Said ehe was taking them outdoors in shifts. Was going to transfer ownership to Shannon and her husband for legal reasons.

We bought from Claudia based upon solid recommendations from vets we knew and trusted who owned her dogs. Before the hoarding and liver genetic problems showed up/ were known to US. 


*And most of all, before Claudia stopped honoring her part of the sales contract which said she would replace a sick puppy with a like quality and priced well puppy, or issue a* *refund*. She did neither, and our little boy had 2 surgeries at Texas A and M, and months of expensive treatments. We did EVERYTHING POSSIBLE that would not cause him more pain ,according to his specilaists, to try and save him. 

Every day is difficult without him. My living Maltese boy looks for his beloved little playmate, and my Maltese girl looks for the other little boy. I believe they are grieving. They can't understand, and part of me doesnt want them to ever forget him.. 

This is the whole truth. For those of you who own Claudia's dogs and think she is wonderful, I am sorry to tell the other side of the story but it needs to see the light of day as badly as most of her precious babies did, day in and day out. She abused those dogs through overcrowding and not being able to take care of them adequately due to the sheer number of them.

If you do not agree with me, I understand. I could not believe what I was seeing with the hoarding. I could not believe she would stop responding to me, her confidant of many months when she became paranoid about PETA and the ASPCA being after her.. It was her OWN guilt about the hoarding bothering her mind, not any animal rights group!!! She stopped all communication with me, changed email and phone numbers etc as soon as my baby's illness was diagnosed and I was panicking. Of course I turned to her. I had trusted her. 

I hope there is a lesson here for someone other than just me. I was told she was great. There are posts here which say she is great, and that her dogs are great, beautiful, cared for in a private home setting ( understatement), etc.

Please learn from my experience. If you hear many dogs barking and crying behind closed doors of what is supposed to be a normal home with *a few* little dogs in it, GET OUT. Just say anything and get out. 

I honestly do not know who to try to trust again to buy another little boy from. Remembering all that Claudia did which was good and kind when she had our business, then the craziness after that, and then the downright mean behavior.. it is scary to me. My dogs are my babies. They are treated with care, kindness, compassion, excellent regular vet care, healthy living conditions, even luxury living.. because they are LOVED. 

Thank you.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> While[/URL] this is helpful in evaluating breeders, there is little info on who are the reputable breeders. The AMA list is an incomplete list. The breeders affiliated with AMA decide whether or not they want to be on the list. There are other AMA breeders out there that are NOT on the AMA list.


I am not a big fan of the term reputable because reputation does not speak to ethics. There are a number of people who have famous "reputations" that I would not go anywhere near for a dog. There are a number of other breeders who are not well known, but who are doing an excellent job trying their best to produce healthy, loving and ideal companion dogs. 

I prefer to use the term ethics. And frankly there is never an easy way to judge someone's ethics. You have to do your homework. A lot of homework. My advice truly is to learn what questions to ask, consider what matters to you and meet the person either face to face at shows or in their home or in some way that you can get as assured as possible that they are being straight up front with you. 

The AMA list is very much incomplete. It does only include those breeders who self-select and pay extra to be on it. Breeders who do not have frequent litters are less likely to wish to participate. However, active membership and participation in breed clubs and shows is one way to measure a breeder's commitment to breeding. This is one reason why I encourage people looking for a puppy to go to shows where they can meet breeders and see the dogs in person. 

I don't see a list of good and bad "reputations" as the mission of this forum. I see this forum as a tool to learn and to help you decide for yourself what is important. Ideally, I wish everyone who was interested in buying a puppy would read as much as they can about what makes an ethical breeder and then I wish they would try to go to shows and find the breeders near them who are living up to those standards.[/QUOTE]
:goodpost::goodpost:


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

ParisandRio said:


> Valid concerns have been raised here and in PMs. I have been reluctant to answer with the breeder's name or her kennel's name, thinking that she HAS gone out of business forever, but I have no way to know that this is true. She has lied about many things. Her lies have changed, depending on how disordered her thinking was on any given day.
> 
> I know that there are members here who have bought and raised her puppies and love them like their children. I also own two healthy Maltese from her and love them dearly. *This does NOT negate the facts that I will attempt to reiterate here concisely.* She did have good breeding stock for a long time and produced pretty dogs. She bought out a maltese breeder who started breeding yorkies.. THAT lady was the person who showed most of the dogs and attained champion titles. Not Claudia. She bought champion adults.
> 
> ...


 No! Thank you for posting this. The owners of babies with this bloodline need to see this. The website is still up with the message:

"We are not currently breeding."
​


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## Cutie Patootie (Jun 6, 2010)

I am so very sorry for your pain. I too have lost a dog way too young and I know how awful and helpless I felt. I am new to this forum, but I really think you are in a great place. These ladies have been wonderful and are a wealth on information. I have been so blessed already by their kindness. 

I know you will find just the right baby boy for your family. Hang in there, you will find him! hugs to you and your furbabies.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

ParisandRio said:


> Valid concerns have been raised here and in PMs. I have been reluctant to answer with the breeder's name or her kennel's name, thinking that she HAS gone out of business forever, but I have no way to know that this is true. She has lied about many things. Her lies have changed, depending on how disordered her thinking was on any given day.
> 
> I know that there are members here who have bought and raised her puppies and love them like their children. I also own two healthy Maltese from her and love them dearly. *This does NOT negate the facts that I will attempt to reiterate here concisely.* She did have good breeding stock for a long time and produced pretty dogs. She bought out a maltese breeder who started breeding yorkies.. THAT lady was the person who showed most of the dogs and attained champion titles. Not Claudia. She bought champion adults.
> 
> ...


 
I know this was hard for you, but thank you so much for posting so that other owners of pups from this breeder know what is going on. :grouphug:


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

I am so sorry that you had to go through this horrible experience. It just goes to show that there is always two sides to a story. When reading old posts on SM about this breeder, one wouldn't see this side. I know there is another breeder who is often mentioned favorably on here that I saw a different side of that is totally different. I stumbled on the truth by not taking the right turn in her drive. This led me to the outside kennel filled with dogs.
Perhaps it would help some others if you could give the pedigree of your pup who died, or at least give the parents, if a full pedigree is not possible.
Good luck in your search for an ethical breeder and a healthy pet.


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## ParisandRio (Nov 5, 2010)

He didn't live long enough for me to get the 4 generation pedigree from the AKC,

His dam was *Paris.*
His sire was *Rio*, a finished AKC Ch purchased from another breeder.

His sire's father was Cherub's " Michael"- "Ch The Godfather". His dam's sire was Ch.Trula's Midnight Rider.
I do not know whether the genetic disease was carried on the paternal or maternal side, a spontaneous mutation, or a combo of both maternal and paternal genes.

As for a discussion of Divinity Maltese goes, there was a poster named Jenn who was getting a puppy from Divinity and was excited. YES, Claudia was VERY nice to all of us who were spending tons of money on her dogs. And I know that the lady who is Claudia's neighbor and owns Tilly and Tango loves Claudia a lot. I even met Tilly and Tango... *I know I am putting myself on the line by telling the truth.*

Jenn was one of the people who contacted me because her dog, Miley, became very very ill, I am not certain what happened to Miley as my father had cancer, I had an elderly dog with cancer, and Bijoux was becoming ill at the same time. 
I hope so much that I can help stop this cycle, if it has not stopped on its own. Please help me help others.


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

I am so sorry to read what you went through. I never meant or intended to cause you any pain, in any way - whatsoever - in sharing your story.

I see too many fluffs discarded like withered flowers - it sickens me. Also, I hear many stories like yours, which breaks my heart - I grieve with, and for you. 

I am glad the YOU had the intellect to realize that, I was not questioning your integrity or motives.

Wishing you the very best.

Warm regards,

Allie


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

To ParisandRio - My heart goes out to you ... how devastating for you, for your dogs, and for those who own related dogs. You are all in my thoughts and prayers. About your remaining pups, I would advise that you bring them to your vet for a bile acid test. Although the test is not inexpensive ($100 - $150), it is money well spent for peace of mind. I would be happy to speak with you privately about the procedure and the value of bile acid testing. Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to speak and I will call you.

To everyone else reading this thread - ParisandRio has raised so many good points. Take her experience to heart when looking for your next puppy. VISIT WITH THE BREEDER AND THE PUPPIES BEFORE BUYING. Ask to have a bile acid test done BEFORE you bring your puppy home and offer to pay for the test. Be willing to wait until the puppy is 15-16 weeks old to have the test done. Make sure you get the official lab results of the test so that you can pass those results along to your vet so that they become a part of your puppy's permanent medical records.

Liver Shunt/MVD is a known issue in our breed. Anywhere from 65% upwards of the dogs tested have higher than normal bile acid values. This does not mean a death sentence!! In most cases it means an asymptomatic MVD dog who lives a full, long, healthy life. Please be understanding of the breeders who do not routinely test. Many of them have been breeding for years from well-established lines that have never produced a liver shunt. That experience counts for a lot. And please be understanding of the breeders who cannot speak eloquently about liver issues. Just because they cannot easily and comfortably spew forth the scientific data regarding PSVA/MVD DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD, UNINFORMED, UNCARING BREEDERS. I can speak comfortably about liver issues because I had the benefit of working with and being tutored by a very knowledgeable vet. But I can't speak nearly as well as other breeders about a whole host of other issues. It doesn't make any one breeder better or smarter than another. I have spoken with many of you privately about liver issues and am happy to continue to do that. I'm not interested in who bred your dog or the pedigree behind your dog. If you share that information that's your choice. But be assured that YOUR INFORMATION WILL NEVER GET PASSED ON BY ME TO ANYBODY ELSE. My only interest is in getting good information out to you so that you can make informed decisions.


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

MaryH said:


> To ParisandRio - My heart goes out to you ... how devastating for you, for your dogs, and for those who own related dogs. You are all in my thoughts and prayers. About your remaining pups, I would advise that you bring them to your vet for a bile acid test. Although the test is not inexpensive ($100 - $150), it is money well spent for peace of mind. I would be happy to speak with you privately about the procedure and the value of bile acid testing. Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to speak and I will call you.
> 
> To everyone else reading this thread - ParisandRio has raised so many good points. Take her experience to heart when looking for your next puppy. VISIT WITH THE BREEDER AND THE PUPPIES BEFORE BUYING. Ask to have a bile acid test done BEFORE you bring your puppy home and offer to pay for the test. Be willing to wait until the puppy is 15-16 weeks old to have the test done. Make sure you get the official lab results of the test so that you can pass those results along to your vet so that they become a part of your puppy's permanent medical records.
> 
> Liver Shunt/MVD is a known issue in our breed. Anywhere from 65% upwards of the dogs tested have higher than normal bile acid values. This does not mean a death sentence!! In most cases it means an asymptomatic MVD dog who lives a full, long, healthy life. Please be understanding of the breeders who do not routinely test. Many of them have been breeding for years from well-established lines that have never produced a liver shunt. That experience counts for a lot. And please be understanding of the breeders who cannot speak eloquently about liver issues. Just because they cannot easily and comfortably spew forth the scientific data regarding PSVA/MVD DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD, UNINFORMED, UNCARING BREEDERS. I can speak comfortably about liver issues because I had the benefit of working with and being tutored by a very knowledgeable vet. But I can't speak nearly as well as other breeders about a whole host of other issues. It doesn't make any one breeder better or smarter than another. I have spoken with many of you privately about liver issues and am happy to continue to do that. I'm not interested in who bred your dog or the pedigree behind your dog. If you share that information that's your choice. But be assured that YOUR INFORMATION WILL NEVER GET PASSED ON BY ME TO ANYBODY ELSE. My only interest is in getting good information out to you so that you can make informed decisions.


I'm making an appointment for Lucy tomorrow for this test.

Thank you Mary

(((Hugs)))


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## ParisandRio (Nov 5, 2010)

MaryH said:


> To ParisandRio - My heart goes out to you ... how devastating for you, for your dogs, and for those who own related dogs. You are all in my thoughts and prayers. About your remaining pups, I would advise that you bring them to your vet for a bile acid test. Although the test is not inexpensive ($100 - $150), it is money well spent for peace of mind. I would be happy to speak with you privately about the procedure and the value of bile acid testing. Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to speak and I will call you.
> 
> To everyone else reading this thread - ParisandRio has raised so many good points. Take her experience to heart when looking for your next puppy. VISIT WITH THE BREEDER AND THE PUPPIES BEFORE BUYING. Ask to have a bile acid test done BEFORE you bring your puppy home and offer to pay for the test. Be willing to wait until the puppy is 15-16 weeks old to have the test done. Make sure you get the official lab results of the test so that you can pass those results along to your vet so that they become a part of your puppy's permanent medical records.
> 
> Liver Shunt/MVD is a known issue in our breed. Anywhere from 65% upwards of the dogs tested have higher than normal bile acid values. This does not mean a death sentence!! In most cases it means an asymptomatic MVD dog who lives a full, long, healthy life. Please be understanding of the breeders who do not routinely test. Many of them have been breeding for years from well-established lines that have never produced a liver shunt. That experience counts for a lot. And please be understanding of the breeders who cannot speak eloquently about liver issues. Just because they cannot easily and comfortably spew forth the scientific data regarding PSVA/MVD DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD, UNINFORMED, UNCARING BREEDERS. I can speak comfortably about liver issues because I had the benefit of working with and being tutored by a very knowledgeable vet. But I can't speak nearly as well as other breeders about a whole host of other issues. It doesn't make any one breeder better or smarter than another. I have spoken with many of you privately about liver issues and am happy to continue to do that. I'm not interested in who bred your dog or the pedigree behind your dog. If you share that information that's your choice. But be assured that YOUR INFORMATION WILL NEVER GET PASSED ON BY ME TO ANYBODY ELSE. My only interest is in getting good information out to you so that you can make informed decisions.


*The bottom line-- Divinity Maltese became a bad and uncaring breeder when they refused to honor the sales contract on our puppy with a replacement puppy guarantee. *
*The breeder did not cause the liver disease, no, nor could it have been prevented. I know that. I think most Malt owners know this. *

*I made an informed decision. I bought a beautiful little boy from a lady who said she honored her contractual obligations. I honored my part, but she did not honor hers, when she could have. There's no way to spin this.*


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

ParisandRio said:


> *The bottom line-- Divinity Maltese became a bad and uncaring breeder when they refused to honor the sales contract on our puppy with a replacement puppy guarantee. *
> *The breeder did not cause the liver disease, no, nor could it have been prevented. I know that. I think most Malt owners know this. *
> 
> *I made an informed decision. I bought a beautiful little boy from a lady who said she honored her contractual obligations. I honored my part, but she did not honor hers, when she could have. There's no way to spin this.*


I, for one, am glad that all this is out in the open in case Divinity opens up again. There are so many issues here .. the liver shunt and your puppy's death; the fact that Divinity didn't honor the contract and work with you to help you through the hereditary medical issues; the breeder who apparently had too many Malts to properly care for; a breeder who cut off all communication when a health issue occurred ... one thing is bad enough ... but all this ... :angry:

I usually am very conservative about what I think should be posted on a public forum but this doesn't appear to be hearsay .. it is direct experience. A lot of us remember the Jennifer Siliski horrific situation .. I wonder how that would have played out here if it were happening now. And I bet there would have been supporters ....


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

k/c mom said:


> I, for one, am glad that all this is out in the open in case Divinity opens up again. There are so many issues here .. the liver shunt and your puppy's death; the fact that Divinity didn't honor the contract and work with you to help you through the hereditary medical issues; the breeder who apparently had too many Malts to properly care for; a breeder who cut off all communication when a health issue occurred ... one thing is bad enough ... but all this ... :angry:
> 
> I usually am very conservative about what I think should be posted on a public forum but this doesn't appear to be hearsay .. it is direct experience. A lot of us remember the Jennifer Siliski horrific situation .. I wonder how that would have played out here if it were happening now. And I bet there would have been supporters ....


I agree, Sher. I'm glad this is out, and does not appear to be hearsay.

If only the dogs could speak, they would blast a few out of the water.

Siliski turned my gut, along with a few others. We must keep on, keepin' on. Our wee ones do not have a voice, but I hear them loud and clear.

Bless all these little souls. I pray, in my lifetime, I see a change. If not, I pray we made a difference, and it will change for good.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

How very sad for you, and for the all the dogs who have suffered due to bad breeders. My heart goes out to you. 

I have a dog with MVD, and I can tell you that when we discovered it, I was beside myself with worry. My dog's breeder went out of her way to offer support in every way possible. (My dog is fine now, very healthy, no issues whatsoever.) 

I am so sorry that you have had to go through this nightmare. It's just too bad that the unethical breeders are still around. One of the reasons is the reluctance to talk publicly about them within the Maltese community.

It's one thing to sell damaged merchandise (not condoning that practice- you know what I mean) and quite another for a breeder to be unethical regarding a living thing - a companion who they know full well that you will share your heart and your home with for many years. 

I am glad that the breeder was named. Naming a breeder in which you have first-hand bad experiences with can save some folks a lot of future heartache.


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## ParisandRio (Nov 5, 2010)

*Thank you*

I don't know the situation which you are referring to... a lady named Jennifer..
I can tell you that I have no reason to say anything against a person from whom I bought 3 dogs who were/ 2 of whom are beautiful and exceedingly smart and loving at all times. Their temperaments are excellent, even the sweet grown girl who was used for breeding. She is a living doll baby. I love my dogs with all my heart. NOTHING short of death could separate them from me or me from them. 
Divinity's out of business through their own choice. I have NO axe to grind at this very late date.

In fact, I waited ask about a breeding program until I was sure that she was out of business because I didn't know how I could respond if/ when her breeding program was suggested to me, knowing how she treated us.. 
I came here to get advice about GREAT breeding programs for another puppy. That is still my intention. I want to find a puppy.  My husband is strongly suggesting another female, because our girl and I have so much fun together.. I dress her in custom made dresses and matching little bonnets and she just prisses around.. She still remembers her days in the show ring and loves the attention paid to her by people at the groomer's and PetSmart and all the places I take her.  She has a wardrobe full of clothing. The boys had some, but it's just too hard to see the one dressed and the other little suit hanging there, empty.. I can't do it. 
So, with hubby's wisdom and observations in mind, I am opening my heart to a pretty little girl. It might be much easier as I would not be comparing her to my lost boy at all. 

Thank you all who care about our loss, and who want to help us find a baby.
Lilly


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

ParisandRio said:


> I don't know the situation which you are referring to... a lady named Jennifer..
> I can tell you that I have no reason to say anything against a person from whom I bought 3 dogs who were/ 2 of whom are beautiful and exceedingly smart and loving at all times. Their temperaments are excellent, even the sweet grown girl who was used for breeding. She is a living doll baby. I love my dogs with all my heart. NOTHING short of death could separate them from me or me from them.
> Divinity's out of business through their own choice. I have NO axe to grind at this very late date.
> 
> ...


I sure hope you find your precious little one soon. I am so sorry for what happened.

"Jennifer" was Jennifer Siliski from Holleybelle Maltese, a show breeder with a good reputation. She was in Tennessee. It was discovered that she was not what people thought .. It was horrendous. Here is the court record.
http://www.tba2.org/tba_files/TCCA/2007/siliskij_051507.pdf

And more info:
Pet-Abuse.Com - Profile


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## ParisandRio (Nov 5, 2010)

Oh my gosh. I never ever dreamed that little tiny Maltese were subjected to outright abuse like this. How did this woman fool the Maltese community for so long? Was it because her dogs were of good stock and won championships easily? How did people think she was reputable? Her CHILDREN were removed from her due to filthy living conditions, albeit temporarily.. 

Did anyone on this forum get any of the rescues? It was 6 years ago.. but there were unborn puppies and newborns. Some could be thriving in good loving homes now.* I would love to read just one or two success stories from this horror story.* The photos broke my heart.

I have learned so much more than I ever wanted to know when I first opened my arms to a tiny baby boy and whispered his new name to him, and felt his little tail wag and his warm puppy breath against my neck. I would DIE for my dogs. I hope this woman did get the sentence PETA wanted her to have-- not to ever be allowed to breed another animal for the rest of her life. Does anyone know if this did happen, or is she back in business?

I HOPE this is the worst thing I ever read about our precious Maltese breed. 
Lilly


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

ParisandRio said:


> Oh my gosh. I never ever dreamed that little tiny Maltese were subjected to outright abuse like this. How did this woman fool the Maltese community for so long? Was it because her dogs were of good stock and won championships easily? How did people think she was reputable? Her CHILDREN were removed from her due to filthy living conditions, albeit temporarily..
> 
> Did anyone on this forum get any of the rescues? It was 6 years ago.. but there were unborn puppies and newborns. Some could be thriving in good loving homes now.* I would love to read just one or two success stories from this horror story.* The photos broke my heart.
> 
> ...


I think all the Hollybelle Maltese were adopted locally, mostly by their rescuers, fosters, etc.

A horrible story.


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## ParisandRio (Nov 5, 2010)

Please tell me that the woman was barred from breeding and selling animals forever. Was she? I can't find a final disposition on the case. There were MANY appeals.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

ParisandRio said:


> Oh my gosh. I never ever dreamed that little tiny Maltese were subjected to outright abuse like this. How did this woman fool the Maltese community for so long? Was it because her dogs were of good stock and won championships easily? How did people think she was reputable? Her CHILDREN were removed from her due to filthy living conditions, albeit temporarily..
> 
> Did anyone on this forum get any of the rescues? It was 6 years ago.. but there were unborn puppies and newborns. Some could be thriving in good loving homes now.* I would love to read just one or two success stories from this horror story.* The photos broke my heart.
> 
> ...


I think for a lot of us the Siliski situation opened our eyes! Yes, she fooled a lot of people. We did have some members here who were fooled by her and had bought puppies. One member even went to her house but never saw the atrocities. 

Here are some SM threads. We had a member who was involved in getting the rescues. The first link below is hers. 

These are old threads and some are hard to follow because they were on the old forum software and when we got a new forum a few months ago, a lot of the quoted portions of threads are not formatted and are sort of "messy".

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/59-everything-else-maltese-related/53465-finally-ours.html

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/54061-siliski.html#post909374

Post #33
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/58587-how-did-you-get-your-pup.html#post984728

Post #12
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/58587-how-did-you-get-your-pup.html#post984374


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

Hypocrisy. Unreal.


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Whether a person is still in business or has closed up shop, the subjectivenes of "good vs bad" is still there. Airing laundry on a public forum is, as far as I'm concerned, counterproductive to getting good information out there. Keeping it private is a much better approach in my humble opinion. How many times over the years have we seen a "bad news" post by someone saying "my breeder blah blah" or "my dog has blah blah". And not long after the post disappears or is edited beyond all recognition? Why? Hmmmm. Some breeders have an obvious presence on this forum, some breeders lurk, and some breeders have their SM member/friends report back to them. So you post something like "I'm thinking of getting a dog from Breeder X. Any thoughts?" and someone responds with "I got one from Breeder X and did not have a good experience [insert sad story here]." Next thing that happens is the poster of the sad story gets a phone call from Breeder X saying "How dare you? I will sue you." and the post gets removed. Or the Admin Team gets an email from Breeder X saying "Remove the thread or I'll sue." and, poof, the thread is gone. So isn't hitting the PM button the better way to get good info out in a discreet manner without the threat of repurcussion? If more people used the PM button about their FIRST-HAND negative experiences, there would be far less of those happening. But it takes all of us to create an environment that makes good people feel safe.


Lilly,
My heart breaks for you. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do.

Mary,
I agree that there is a subjectiveness of good vs. bad. However, by only allowing people to post positive comments about breeders is not always showing the whole picture. For instance, I have been a member on here for a few years but I rarely, if ever, post. That doesn't mean that I am not on here every day reading and getting some great info. There are people who come to this forum, like myself, who came here to research breeders . To be honest with you, I based my decision to buy from a particular breeder based on the gushing about her on SM. People rave about her and her beautiful dogs. I never once read anything negative about this breeder so I figured, hey, this is a no brainer. I love the "look" of her dogs, nobody ever complained about bad temperaments or health issues so I figured it was a done deal. Did I go to shows to meet her? Nope. In retrospect, it wasn't the smartest thing I ever did. Did I meet the pup or the pups parents? Nope. I had my pup shipped because after all, everything I read on here suggested she has great pups and there would be no reason to have to do those things. So I paid top dollar for my pup because she is a "top tier breeder". I didn't go to a BYB or a broker. I went straight to the top. I expected a beautiful, healthy dog with a fabulous temperament because after all, that's what top tier breeders produce, right? Well, not in my case. Beautiful? You bet? Healthy? So far. Fabulous temperament? Not so much. He is terribly fearful and was, in my trainers opinion, under socialized when he came to me. Did I expect this from a so called "top tier" breeder? No way. This is not the temperament that I expected. When the breeder was informed of my pups issues, she told me to find a good trainer. So much for standing behind your pups. I figured this had to be an isolated incident until I started finding out differently. Many people who have her dogs are unhappy with their temperaments, looks, or size. Sadly, nobody would dare mention it though because it would be glossed over or we would be attacked for saying something negative about this breeder. So, is it fair to people to only hear glowing comments about breeders? I think not. It's a shame that this forum won't allow good and bad experiences with breeders. As far as the breeder threatening to sue??? For what? The truth? It's ok for you to sell me a pup with a bad temperament but it's not ok for me to tell people about it? Hmmm.....it would probably have a tough time holding up in a court of law. Whatever happened to freedom of speech???? 

Please understand Mary that this is in no way directed at you. I don't have one of your pups nor have I ever met you. I just feel that this forum has done a disservice to me and many others. The glowing comments will continue, the pics of her pups will be "ooohed and aahhed" over and people will flock to her to get one of her pups. SM has been great for her sales. I am sure she has many satisfied customers, but there are many who aren't. You won't hear about them on SM though. We will just sit and watch people line her pockets and pray that their pup is all that they hoped for. If their temperament isn't what you expected, don't expect her to help you either. She'll send you off to a trainer and you won't hear from her again.

Shame on me for not doing enough homework. I should have gone to shows and met her and her pups. Completely my fault. Unfortunately though, many people are unable to fly across the country to go to shows and meet breeders. We have to either have our pup shipped or find somebody local. 

Don't get me wrong. I love my pup with all of my heart and soul and I wouldn't trade him for the world but he has serious fear issues and it's alot of hard work. I didn't in a million years expect this. But, by all means, let's protect the breeders who aren't doing a good job socializing their pups and shipping them off and "hoping for the best". 

I'm sorry if this post has offended anybody. It isn't my intention. It's just very upsetting that the dirt from some breeders is just swept under the carpet.

Mary, I only wished that I HAD hit the PM button. If I had been smarter about it, I would have sent a PM to everybody who has one of her dogs and asked about each of their experiences. However, I didn't do that. I figured if somebody was unhappy with one of her dogs, they would have said SOMETHING. I would have read a snippet of something that suggested to do more research. Sadly, I followed the "herd mentality" and bought from her. Mary, you offered some fantastic advice. Lily and everybody else looking for a pup, do your homework and then do some more. PM everybody about their experience with their breeders. Go to shows, meet the pups. When you are done with that, do some more homework.

Best of luck to you Lily in finding another baby. I wish you all the best!!

Lori


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Lori said:


> Lilly,
> My heart breaks for you. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do.
> 
> Mary,
> ...


:goodpost:

If there are members that have been afraid to share their stories because of not wanting a 'back lash', then you're right, SM did do you a disservice by not allowing the complete picture to be painted.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Lori said:


> Lilly,
> My heart breaks for you. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do.
> 
> Mary,
> ...





bellaratamaltese said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> If there are members that have been afraid to share their stories because of not wanting a 'back lash', then you're right, SM did do you a disservice by not allowing the complete picture to be painted.


 
:goodpost::goodpost: I couldn't have said it any better Lori and Stacy. Lori i know how hard it was for you to post and i'm so happy you did, it needed to be brought to everyones attention. :grouphug::grouphug:


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

Lori said:


> Lilly,
> My heart breaks for you. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do.
> 
> Mary,
> ...


 
Lori,

Good for you! I LOVE a person who "marches to their own beat" - HONESTY, it takes a BIG person to stand up and speak out for others - Martin Luther King comes to mind - 

I don't, in anyway, whatsoever, condone "trashing" people, breeders or vendors - I simply mean - tell it like it is.

People like Lily and you are AMAZING! People like Lily and you make this forum what it should be, to educate - not persecute someone for simply asking a question. 

Yes, the other stuff is fun and light - but all in all, aren’t we ALL here to learn to be better providers for our fluffs? (Rhetorically speaking).

There was a thread not too long ago - discussing washers and dryers - nobody seemed to mind differences of opinions in that post. 


Allie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Wow, Lori, what a great post. From my understanding of the SM rules, we can definitely share good as well as bad experiences but they just have to be first-hand experiences and not hearsay. You may want to get Yung on here to clarify but I have never heard that we cannot say anything negative as long as it is factual and first-hand info.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

In all honesty, I think people might be afraid to report their first-hand _negative _experiences with breeders because this forum is _perceived as_ biased in favor of certain breeders.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Nikki's Mom said:


> In all honesty, I think people might be afraid to report their first-hand _negative _experiences with breeders because this forum is _perceived as_ biased in favor of certain breeders.


 
That is so true!


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

Nikki's Mom said:


> In all honesty, I think people might be afraid to report their first-hand _negative _experiences with breeders because this forum is _perceived as_ biased in favor of certain breeders.


How profound.

Might I add, that also applies to vendors, etc. - it's a free world, how boring and dull it would be - to only have access to vanilla ice cream -

~Allie


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

Nikki's Mom said:


> In all honesty, I think people might be afraid to report their first-hand _negative _experiences with breeders because this forum is _perceived as_ biased in favor of certain breeders.


Very true.

Great post Lori too. I agree with what you wrote. 

To me, to judge or try to discredit someone's (first hand) experience (whether good or bad) because it wasn't your own experience -is just uneducated, immature behavior imo.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Thank you Lori. I hope you will post often.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Lori said:


> Lilly,
> My heart breaks for you. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do.
> 
> Mary,
> ...


Lori, not only am I not in the least bit offended by your post, I will state without hesitation that your post is one of the BEST that I've ever read on this subject on this forum. I agree with you TOTALLY. The reason why I advocate using the PM button is because (a) there is a tendency on this forum for people to strongly support the breeder of their choice, sometimes based on first-hand experience while other times based on "herd mentality"; and (b) because so often when a negative post appears the thread becomes anything from volatile to downright nasty, thus frightening off good people with very valid first-hand negative experiences from sharing their story. I thought by suggesting that people consider using the PM button, they could pass their story along in a manner that prevents a thread from getting volatile while at the same time protecting the person with the negative experience from suffering a potential backlash from the breeder being discussed and/or those who support that breeder. Negative experiences need to get known but not everybody has the courage to go public and many are very fearful of a potential lawsuit. Please believe me when I say that I fully understand your frustration but also please believe me when I say that people who have had a negative experience are fearful of posting about it. I know this because of the communications I've received saying things like "This needs to be known but how can I get it out there without getting sued." Whether there are grounds for a lawsuit or not, if a lawsuit is filed then an innocent person has to hire and pay for legal defense.



bellaratamaltese said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> If there are members that have been afraid to share their stories because of not wanting a 'back lash', then you're right, SM did do you a disservice by not allowing the complete picture to be painted.


Stacy, again I totally agree. But how can the "backlash" be prevented?



Nikki's Mom said:


> In all honesty, I think people might be afraid to report their first-hand _negative _experiences with breeders because this forum is _perceived as_ biased in favor of certain breeders.


Suzan, I agree with you about the fear factor, but I think it goes beyond the perception of a bias. Personally, I think there IS a bias toward certain breeders and it has become self-perpetuating.

I don't post negative reviews on this forum because I've not had a first-hand negative experience but also because I do breed occasionally and I would never want someone to come back at me and accuse me of trashing another breeder for self-serving reasons.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes, there is a real bias toward a few certain breeders, but what I meant by "perceived to be" is that not all of us who are members here are inclined to favor those same breeders.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Lori said:


> Lilly,
> My heart breaks for you. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do.
> 
> Mary,
> ...


Lori, 

This is one of the best posts I have read in a long long time. :aktion033::aktion033::aktion033:

You have done a beautiful job articulating your experience into a lesson for anyone who may be using this forum as a tool to help them find a breeder and this should be required reading for anyone in that position. 

Thank you for being willing to come forward.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

I have to say that back when I was looking for a Maltese I read some posts that said, "I wouldn't buy a Malt from ___." I remember that other people had said good things about these breeders. That's when I hit the PM button and indeed talked to people in several cases about their experiences and of course weighed that into my decisions both pro and con. It was up to me to do my homework but I also felt people could be more candid via PM or on the phone and I could ask any questions or ask for clarifications than a broad post. It worked well and it was just subtle postings like that...not a long laundry list. And to this day I have never discussed with anyone on SM what was discussed with me privately. For me it worked well. Maybe I'm just that kind of person.
It just popped into my mind that when i travel my guide is TripAdvisor. It's all about opinions. I've found it to be an invaluable resource. You read them, pro and con, and then you determine what to believe or what not to believe. Lots of people give very valid opinions; others seem like nothing will please them. Sometimes I read about places that have all negatives and I've learned, "Stay Away." And sometimes there are a mix and I just have to think about what's right for me. Same thing with getting a pup - you have to get all the info and make the right determination for yourself.


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

I realize that many people who read my post wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, and I totally respect that. For those of you who took the time to respond and offered your support, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. If I inspired just one person to do a little more homework, talk to people about their experiences, good and bad, and not go with the "herd mentality" then I will be happy and my job will be done. 

I think it was April who suggested that we have a breeder feedback section. I think this is an excellent idea. In order to prevent things from getting volatile and people airing their dirty laundry, it would need to be in a survey format. For example, it could be as simple as a spot to fill in the name of the breeder, a series of questions that required ONLY a "yes or no" response and a box in which to check it. They could be the most basic questions such as:

1. Would you recommend this breeder?
2. Are you happy with your overall experience with this breeder?
3. Are you happy with your pup's temperament?
4. If you had any follow-up questions/concerns for your breeder after the sale, did they provide you with the proper assistance?
5. Did you have your pup shipped?

You get the idea. It would need to be formatted in such a way that you would NOT be able to post comments. If people were permitted to post their feedback without having to worry about backlash, perhaps more people would be willing to share their experiences, good and bad. People would be able to use this as another tool in evaluating a breeder. If you needed further clarification on somebody's experience, you would simply hit the PM button, thereby keeping everything confidential.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Lori said:


> I realize that many people who read my post wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, and I totally respect that. For those of you who took the time to respond and offered your support, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. If I inspired just one person to do a little more homework, talk to people about their experiences, good and bad, and not go with the "herd mentality" then I will be happy and my job will be done.
> 
> I think it was April who suggested that we have a breeder feedback section. I think this is an excellent idea. In order to prevent things from getting volatile and people airing their dirty laundry, it would need to be in a survey format. For example, it could be as simple as a spot to fill in the name of the breeder, a series of questions that required ONLY a "yes or no" response and a box in which to check it. They could be the most basic questions such as:
> 
> ...


 

Excellent Idea!!! :aktion033::aktion033:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm not opposed to a breeder forum but I'd like to see it limited to two questions and no area for comment. The questions I'd like to see are:

1. Who did you get your dog from?

2. Would you be willing to communicate with others privately about your experience?

I'm not trying to pick apart the questions, but while temperament might be important to one person, health might be to another, someone else may care about structure and/or size, and yet another about look. Rather than asking people to answer any questions publicly, it might be helpful to develop a list of suggested questions for a person to ask in a private communication.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

MaryH said:


> I'm not opposed to a breeder forum but I'd like to see it limited to two questions and no area for comment. The questions I'd like to see are:
> 
> 1. Who did you get your dog from?
> 
> ...


I think that's a great idea, Mary.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Lori said:


> I realize that many people who read my post wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, and I totally respect that. For those of you who took the time to respond and offered your support, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. If I inspired just one person to do a little more homework, talk to people about their experiences, good and bad, and not go with the "herd mentality" then I will be happy and my job will be done.
> 
> I think it was April who suggested that we have a breeder feedback section. I think this is an excellent idea. In order to prevent things from getting volatile and people airing their dirty laundry, it would need to be in a survey format. For example, it could be as simple as a spot to fill in the name of the breeder, a series of questions that required ONLY a "yes or no" response and a box in which to check it. They could be the most basic questions such as:
> 
> ...


I would hate to see SM start doing breeder reviews. They are allowed on another forum I belong to and cause lots of problems. We have had many situations similar to yours where members have gotten a puppy from a breeder that has gotten great reviews publicly, only to find out that there are many unhappy owners behind the scenes who are too afraid to speak up. Most of the reviews are from new owners who give glowing reviews of their breeders right away, but don't come back and update their review if they have a problem later on.

It also wouldn't be fair to allow breeder reviews with no ability to comment. Any breeder being reviewed should have the right to tell her side of the story. I have seen plenty of bad reviews of breeders on the other forum that were not justified after you heard the breeder's side of the story.

There is just no substitute for people doing their own research when looking for a puppy. We have a great stickie here with tips on how to find an ethical breeder. We can refer people to the AMA list and suggest they go to local shows to meet breeders themselves.

We actually did away with threads posting about puppies available from breeders last Spring just to make sure SM never becomes a substitute for doing your own due diligence when finding a breeder.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Cosy said:


> I think that's a great idea, Mary.


Thank you, Brit. :ThankYou:


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## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

MaryH said:


> I'm not opposed to a breeder forum but I'd like to see it limited to two questions and no area for comment. The questions I'd like to see are:
> 
> 1. Who did you get your dog from?
> 
> ...


 
:goodpost:


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

MaryH said:


> I'm not opposed to a breeder forum but I'd like to see it limited to two questions and no area for comment. The questions I'd like to see are:
> 
> 1. Who did you get your dog from?
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right, Mary! This is even better. Short and sweet.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

that sounds like an excellent idea to me,too. I originally came to this forum when I was looking for a Maltese puppy. It would have been nice to talk with more people about their experience. I was hesitant,but I did go ahead and pm several people and was glad that I did!!


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I agree with Mary. I would like to see a thread that says:

I am considering getting a fluff from "Such and Such Breeder" or name the handful of breders that the OP is considering.

If you have PERSONAL experience with this (these) breeders, would you please pm me and let me know what your experience(s) have been.

And then the thread should be closed so that no one can respond openly.

Just my 2 cents worth. That way we won't be able to get into any bashing of various breeders which I think would be appropriate.

Or if the OP isn't considering or doesn't know any breeders, he/she might ask if someone knows of breeders in his/her area, and then ask to have members send a pm about the breeder(s).


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Lacie's Mom said:


> I agree with Mary. I would like to see a thread that says:
> 
> I am considering getting a fluff from "Such and Such Breeder" or name the handful of breders that the OP is considering.
> 
> ...


I think Mary's idea was for a breeder review section where the owner would start the thread.

What are you talking about is a response to a question about a breeder, right?

Are you saying that all firsthand experiences, whether good or bad, should only be shared in pm's? You couldn't allow only positive comments to be public. That would be too misleading.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

That's how it was before, Marj. The problem with open complaints of a certain breeder is we do not know what is truth and what is perception. As someone said to me today....there is black and there is white and the truth usually lies in the gray area. I think Mary's idea is a good one.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

My idea, which was actually a spinoff of someone else's idea, was to form a sort of owner/breeder directory. There would be no place for comment, good or bad, set up like a form with boxes for an owner to fill in. The fill in boxes would be for (1) Breeder Name; (2) Kennel Name; (3) Location; and (4) Would you be willing to discuss your experience. Someone looking for a dog could go to this "directory" and see who might own dogs from the breeder(s) they are considering or got them from a location near to them and PM those owners to ask questions. I just posted in another thread what I would hope for it to look like:

Breeder: Pauline Walsh
Kennel Name: Ceallaigh Maltese
Location: Massachusetts

Breeder: Ken Shay
Kennel Name: Leshay Maltese
Location: Washington

Breeder: Sheila Riley
Kennel Name: MaltaAngel Maltese
Location: California (Central Valley)

I also thought that forming a committee (representing both breeders and owners) to develop a list of suggested questions that someone looking for a dog could ask an owner might be helpful.

I do encourage people to go to shows, meet breeders, do their homework, etc., but I also realize that not everybody can do that. Personally I don't think that online feedback is a great research tool either; some owners are just not willing to share negatives publicly, some owners go over the top with negatives, some owners post a wonderful experience only to have the relationship fall apart later, etc. In fairness to owners, buyers, breeders and most especially the dogs, can't we help provide a research tool that is non-threatening to all involved?


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> My idea, which was actually a spinoff of someone else's idea, was to form a sort of owner/breeder directory. There would be no place for comment, good or bad, set up like a form with boxes for an owner to fill in. The fill in boxes would be for (1) Breeder Name; (2) Kennel Name; (3) Location; and (4) Would you be willing to discuss your experience. Someone looking for a dog could go to this "directory" and see who might own dogs from the breeder(s) they are considering or got them from a location near to them and PM those owners to ask questions. I just posted in another thread what I would hope for it to look like:
> 
> Breeder: Pauline Walsh
> Kennel Name: Ceallaigh Maltese
> ...


Absolutely LOVE this idea!

Yung, can we please have something like this. It would help so much, and truly elimante post going off track for a variety of reasons.

This would be such a helpful tool. It's fair to all, and in the end result, the best thing for the little furbabies, not to mention buyer and breeder.

Fantastic idea :aktion033:

Sure would elimanate any potential upset, misunderstandings, etc. and would really be such an asset to SM.


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## denise&chico (Oct 14, 2004)

oh I feel your pain lost my Buddy at 5 and half It was heartbreaking I still have my Chico LOVER my baby and one day hopefully 20 yrs from now when i look for another malt I will really really research before putting my heart and their life on the line ~ Denise


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Cosy said:


> That's how it was before, Marj. The problem with open complaints of a certain breeder is we do not know what is truth and what is perception. As someone said to me today....there is black and there is white and the truth usually lies in the gray area. I think Mary's idea is a good one.



I think responses, whether positive or negative, have always been allowed here as long as the poster has firsthand experience.

This is pinned in the Breeder's section.

We are glad to offer information here on SM that can help people purchase from a reputable breeder. 
However, in order to be fair to all concerned, please abide by the following rules. 

Posts not complying with these rules will be either edited or removed, at the discretion of the Admin/Mod team.

1. Please only reply if you have *first-hand* experience with the breeder. 
2. Do not make speculative posts of what you "think" the situation "might" be.
3. Do not post anything based on what you have heard.
4. Out of courtesy to the original poster, please stay on topic.

It is recommended that those looking for a Malt research any breeder by doing searches here, 
on Google, and to consider who is on or not on the AMA list, AKC list, as well as noting any violations 
on each and every breeder you consider.

Correct me if I misunderstood her, but I thought Mary was proposing something different, a directory for breeders?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Let's stay positive here. We just might be heading in the right direction and I for one don't want to come to a screeching halt by having the thread closed. :smootch:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> Correct me if I misunderstood her, but I thought Mary was proposing something different, a directory for breeders?


What I'm proposing is a directory of owners willing to discuss with a potential puppy buyer the experience they had with the breeder they purchased their dog from. We tell people all the time to go to the AMA Breeder Referral List, but also tell them that it is not a complete list and that there are many worthy breeders who are not on that list. It's a starting place. An owner/breeder directory would be an additional research tool and it would provide the potential puppy buyer the opportunity to communicate with someone who has had first-hand experience.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

MaryH said:


> What I'm proposing is a directory of owners willing to discuss with a potential puppy buyer the experience they had with the breeder they purchased their dog from. We tell people all the time to go to the AMA Breeder Referral List, but also tell them that it is not a complete list and that there are many worthy breeders who are not on that list. It's a starting place. An owner/breeder directory would be an additional research tool and it would provide the potential puppy buyer the opportunity to communicate with someone who has had first-hand experience.


It's an excellent idea. :thumbsup:

How about starting a new thread in the Suggestions section so your idea doesn't get lost in this thread?


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Do you have to bring the dog home in order to have "first hand experience" with the breeder? Sometimes the sale falls apart due to either or both parties backing out. Is this first hand experience?


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Mary, I agree with you. This way new puppy buyers will know who to contact on buying a puppy from certain breeders. Of coarse, the owners will have to be willing to do this type of information sharing. Every breeder has good contacts with puppy owners and bad contact with puppy owners. This way the person searching can get a fairly accurate idea of what that breeder is like. Each transaction that I do is entirely different from one person to the next. Each puppy or dog is different too. 




Experience the Magic


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

Following the tone of the last post, what if the experience was negative, and you decided not to purchase from a particular breeder after a visit?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I think this would be a good idea *IF* the puppy buyer who is posting their experience could be identified. Since this is a forum where anyone can be anonymous, I really don't see this being a credible means of review. 

As the forum is right now, anyone can sign up with multiple accounts and give many negative or positive reviews/opinions. We know this has happened in the past, and quite honestly I suspect this is still going on.


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

vjw said:


> I think this would be a good idea *IF* the puppy buyer who is posting their experience could be identified. Since this is a forum where anyone can be anonymous, I really don't see this being a credible means of review.
> 
> As the forum is right now, anyone can sign up with multiple accounts and give many negative or positive reviews/opinions. We know this has happened in the past, and quite honestly I suspect this is still going on.


 
Excellent idea.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

vjw said:


> I think this would be a good idea *IF* the puppy buyer who is posting their experience could be identified. Since this is a forum where anyone can be anonymous, I really don't see this being a credible means of review.
> 
> As the forum is right now, anyone can sign up with multiple accounts and give many negative or positive reviews/opinions. We know this has happened in the past, and quite honestly I suspect this is still going on.





Green444 said:


> Following the tone of the last post, what if the experience was negative, and you decided not to purchase from a particular breeder after a visit?


I had this thought, too. Some people have first hand experience and have visited a breeder's home or have had enough contact to give a "first-hand" evaluation but have not ended up with a puppy from them. Would there be a criteria or place for that? 



princessre said:


> Do you have to bring the dog home in order to have "first hand experience" with the breeder? Sometimes the sale falls apart due to either or both parties backing out. Is this first hand experience?


Joy, since this is really not a review (positive or negative) but rather a listing of people who say they are willing to share their first hand experience with a breeder I would think that would not be as much of an issue. Yes, someone could still lie as they can now, but it seems a bit less likely in the kind of directory Mary proposes.


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## preciouspups (Apr 13, 2008)

princessre said:


> Do you have to bring the dog home in order to have "first hand experience" with the breeder? Sometimes the sale falls apart due to either or both parties backing out. Is this first hand experience?


Absolutely, this is indispensable first hand experience. What would cause the transaction to fall apart? This is the information that is crucial to share.


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

What if someone did come on and have a negative comment about a breeder? Would that breeder have the opportunity to address what was said about them?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Not if the breeder doesn't belong to SM or check SM regularly, no.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

princessre said:


> Do you have to bring the dog home in order to have "first hand experience" with the breeder? Sometimes the sale falls apart due to either or both parties backing out. Is this first hand experience?


Good point, Sophia. I've been thinking more along the lines of *owner/breeder* experience because the buy/sell is only a part of the experience. There's the follow up, the support, etc. that for some is very much a part of the experience that a non-buyer could not speak to. While I do believe there's value in someone saying "I visited, loved the breeder, home environment was meticulous, etc., but the puppy available was not what I wanted" OR "I visited and couldn't get out of there fast enough", both of those scenarios can be posted on the forum anyway. I guess my thought was that anyone who owns a dog and is willing to communicate privately would be willing to give their honest assessment, i.e., "Breeder was great; home was clean/not so clean/filthy; willing/unwilling to ship; does/does not seem very knowledgeable about X, Y, and Z; does/does not or will/will not do health screening; had a contract I was comfortable with or was negotiable on; does/does not require spay/neuter; was/wasn't responsive a week, month or year later; and so on."

Nothing is perfect but I think if we try to make it all encompassing then it becomes something other than a simple, easy to navigate owner/breeder directory. As for less than honorable people participating, we will never be able to close all the loopholes ...

Edited to Add: There would be nothing preventing a puppy owner in a private conversation from also saying "When I was searching I also contacted Breeder Y. Unfortunately, he/she did not have what I was looking for at the time that I contacted him/her. I visited, loved what I saw and would absolutely buy from him/her in a heartbeat if what I wanted became available." or "When I was searching I also contacted Breeder Z and would never ever buy for the following reasons ...."


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

vjw said:


> I think this would be a good idea *IF* the puppy buyer who is posting their experience could be identified. Since this is a forum where anyone can be anonymous, I really don't see this being a credible means of review.
> 
> As the forum is right now, anyone can sign up with multiple accounts and give many negative or positive reviews/opinions. We know this has happened in the past, and quite honestly I suspect this is still going on.


There would be no review and no posting of anything other than breeder name, kennel name, location, and willingness to have a private discussion. All this is is a means for someone thinking about buying a dog from Breeder X to make contact with someone who already purchased a dog from Breeder X. The potential buyer can ask questions, the owner can answer questions, all done in private. Potential buyer evaluates for himself/herself any and all information they may have gathered, whether from SM, from another Breeder X puppy buyer, from Breeder X, and/or from any other number of sources and makes a decision.


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

Mary, this is absolutely PERFECT!!!!! :aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::aktion033:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Green444 said:


> What if someone did come on and have a negative comment about a breeder? Would that breeder have the opportunity to address what was said about them?





Cosy said:


> Not if the breeder doesn't belong to SM or check SM regularly, no.


There would be no opportunity to come on and post negative or positive comments. This is simply a place for an owner to say what breeder they got their dog from and that they would be willing to have a PRIVATE discussion regarding their experience.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I am just trying to make sure I understand this....

So if a newbie came on asking for information about X breeder or for breeder recommendations for a certain state, we would simply refer them to the AMA list or the Breeder directory so they could contact members who had firsthand experience? 

And members who had either a positive or a negative experience with a breeder can only share their story in pm's?

So I assume members recommending their breeders and posting their websites would no longer be allowed?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> I am just trying to make sure I understand this....
> 
> So if a newbie came on asking for information about X breeder or for breeder recommendations for a certain state, we would simply refer them to the AMA list or the Breeder directory so they could contact members who had firsthand experience?
> 
> ...


Think of this as "The White Pages". I want to buy a Maltese puppy. I went to a couple of dog shows and saw some dogs that were bred by Breeder X. I see in "The White Pages" that John Doe and Suzy Q both said they got dogs from Breeder X and that they'd be willing to discuss their experience privately. Great!! I think I'll send them a PM to see what they have to say.

I never said that posts regarding breeders and websites should no longer be allowed. All I'm suggesting is the creation of a simple directory that would contain breeder name, kennel name, location, and willingness to communicate privately. Nothing more, nothing less. As for what gets posted anywhere else on SM, post whatever you want so long as it is in keeping with the rules of SM.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

MaryH said:


> Think of this as "The White Pages". I want to buy a Maltese puppy. I went to a couple of dog shows and saw some dogs that were bred by Breeder X. I see in "The White Pages" that John Doe and Suzy Q both said they got dogs from Breeder X and that they'd be willing to discuss their experience privately. Great!! I think I'll send them a PM to see what they have to say.
> 
> I never said that posts regarding breeders and websites should no longer be allowed. All I'm suggesting is the creation of a simple directory that would contain breeder name, kennel name, location, and willingness to communicate privately. Nothing more, nothing less. As for what gets posted anywhere else on SM, post whatever you want so long as it is in keeping with the rules of SM.


Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand it better now. Members can still comment on breeders, positive or negative, as long as they have firsthand experience. This directory would just be another resource for anyone who wanted to speak privately to another member about their experience.


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## Molly'sMom (Jul 15, 2010)

Coincidentally today I watched a documentary regarding the BBB. Apparently if you pay their "enrollment fee" you have a much better chance to get a high grade. There are those who have poor grades because they feel they should not have to pay the fee to the BBB. There was a lady who ran an antique shop who finally broke down to a BBB telemarketer and her grade went directly up to an A plus the next day. I guess it is even BUYER BEWARE with the BBB.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I hate to be odd man out but I really don't think we need a directory. Back when I was admin, we caught several breeders over a period of time who joined under fake names and would post as if they were looking for a puppy and would recommend themselves or they would post as if they were just a member and not a breeder. These are breeders that are not obscure and some are ones you know and that are mentioned here. 

I worry that breeders who are curious about what customers say about them and about other breeders will join just to find out. Because they don't post, it would be hard for Yung and Joe to discover what they are up to and then they could use the directory to make it easy for them to PM members to get info.

I realize that people can do that now but I don't think it is top of mind because there is no list. I really worry that a list would open the door to mischief.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

There's mischief anyway and really no way to tell if someone comes on here complaining to HURT a breeder too. 
I like Mary's idea. It's a step, not an end-all-be-all. Worth a try!


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

k/c mom said:


> I hate to be odd man out but I really don't think we need a directory. Back when I was admin, we caught several breeders over a period of time who joined under fake names and would post as if they were looking for a puppy and would recommend themselves or they would post as if they were just a member and not a breeder. These are breeders that are not obscure and some are ones you know and that are mentioned here.
> 
> I worry that breeders who are curious about what customers say about them and about other breeders will join just to find out. Because they don't post, it would be hard for Yung and Joe to discover what they are up to and then they could use the directory to make it easy for them to PM members to get info.
> 
> I realize that people can do that now but I don't think it is top of mind because there is no list. I really worry that a list would open the door to mischief.


And if a breeder in disguise PM'd a few people and received negative reviews maybe they'd take them to heart, realize they could do things better, and change their ways. :aktion033:


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

MaryH said:


> And if a breeder in disguise PM'd a few people and received negative reviews maybe they'd take them to heart, realize they could do things better, and change their ways. :aktion033:


Yes, in an ideal world ... but the bad ones are likely to get defensive and start talking lawsuits. I have seen it myself back when I was admin. I guess that is why my point of view is different from others in this thread.

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were breeders who were curious what people think of some of the more successful breeders. They would join under a fake username and PM as if they were interested in a puppy from those breeders. This is not far fetched based on some of the things I've already seen breeders do on SM.

And on the list ... if there is name after name of members who have bought from the same breeder there will likely be people who are more shy or uncomfortable PM-ing a stranger and they may assume that because so many members bought from a particular breeder that that one is A-OK.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Cosy said:


> There's mischief anyway and really no way to tell if someone comes on here complaining to HURT a breeder too.
> I like Mary's idea. It's a step, not an end-all-be-all. Worth a try!


If the mischief makers have to post publicly they can be discovered. We just PM Yung or Joe and they can do an investigation. If it is all behind the scenes they likely will not be found out.

I know I personally do not want to be involved in being on a list to talk via PM to people who have not even posted here and who may have a hidden agenda.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

There are some members who name the breeder of their fluff under their avatar. If someone is interested in that breeder they can PM the member. Unfortunately not everyone has done this.

I have seen a breeder on here late at night - has never posted, and is not mentioned much - so must have just been reading...


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

k/c mom said:


> Yes, in an ideal world ... but the bad ones are likely to get defensive and start talking lawsuits. I have seen it myself back when I was admin. I guess that is why my point of view is different from others in this thread.
> 
> And it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were breeders who were curious what people think of some of the more successful breeders. They would join under a fake username and PM as if they were interested in a puppy from those breeders. This is not far fetched based on some of the things I've already seen breeders do on SM.
> 
> And on the list ... if there is name after name of members who have bought from the same breeder there will likely be people who are more shy or uncomfortable PM-ing a stranger and they may assume that because so many members bought from a particular breeder that that one is A-OK.


To your last point. I agree this is a concern and IMHO such a list could be accompanied by a list of excellent questions that could/should be asked. I personally prefer to buy from breeders who do not have as many litters per year as others and to me seeing a large number of puppy buyers all coming from the same breeder might actually make me worry they breed in too high a volume to spend all the time socializing might require. 

As for your point about lawsuits, I am sure, especially knowing about some of the controversies that happened under your watch, that you will ALWAYS get people threatening to sue. On another list I belong to for show breeders jokes were recently made about the propensity of people in the dog world to reach for that threat as quickly as they do. However, I can't imagine how Mary's idea would cause any kind of increase in such threats. In fact, the fact that most of the information is not out on the public forum would mean that there was some protection for SM against such threats. 

To the issue of the deciet that goes on, I am sure that this happens already, we have a number of people who sign up for new user names or hide behind fake ones. But again, I do not see how Mary's suggestion would cause an increase in that kind of nonsense. 

I know that you have a different perspective as a former admin. But, like you I have also been an admin on a dog forum. Mary has as well. I actually think that her suggestion comes in part from that experience.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

CloudClan said:


> To your last point. I agree this is a concern and IMHO such a list could be accompanied by a list of excellent questions that could/should be asked. I personally prefer to buy from breeders who do not have as many litters per year as others and to me seeing a large number of puppy buyers all coming from the same breeder might actually make me worry they breed in too high a volume to spend all the time socializing might require.
> 
> As for your point about lawsuits, I am sure, especially knowing about some of the controversies that happened under your watch, that you will ALWAYS get people threatening to sue. On another list I belong to for show breeders jokes were recently made about the propensity of people in the dog world to reach for that threat as quickly as they do. However, I can't imagine how Mary's idea would cause any kind of increase in such threats. In fact, the fact that most of the information is not out on the public forum would mean that there was some protection for SM against such threats.
> 
> ...


To answer the portion I've bolded .. I think it would make it easy for deceit because someone can join and then start PM-ing. No one in authority would have a reason to be suspicious because it all would be behind the scenes. And lots of people can be PM-d without each of them knowing about the other. 

I just don't understand the appeal of this idea at all.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

k/c mom said:


> Yes, in an ideal world ... but the bad ones are likely to get defensive and start talking lawsuits. I have seen it myself back when I was admin. I guess that is why my point of view is different from others in this thread.
> 
> And it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were breeders who were curious what people think of some of the more successful breeders. They would join under a fake username and PM as if they were interested in a puppy from those breeders. This is not far fetched based on some of the things I've already seen breeders do on SM.
> 
> And on the list ... if there is name after name of members who have bought from the same breeder there will likely be people who are more shy or uncomfortable PM-ing a stranger and they may assume that because so many members bought from a particular breeder that that one is A-OK.


I agree. You don't have to post on a public forum to be sued for libel and slander. Speaking to only one person is all it takes for a libel or slander lawsuit. I would hate to have our members think it was safer to discuss their experience with a breeder privately and be set up by a breeder with a fake username.

The way the rules are now, where someone can comment on a breeder as long as they have firsthand information, is a good one IMO. It has it's own set of checks and balances as other members can comment on their experience which could be totally different and the breeder herself could comment. Over the years I have seen a number of situations where a member told one story, but when the breeder came on to tell her side of the story it changed things completely. 

Yung has control over everything that is posted here and can edit and remove posts that are objectionable, discipline members, and ban trolls and troublemakers. The Admin has no control over anything that is said in pm's, yet by providing a directory with members to contact, SM could become a party in a lawsuit.

Breeder lists, a breeder referral section, a breeder directory, all these things have been proposed over the years. All set SM down a slippery slope IMO. I think SM should stay out of the puppy matchmaker business entirely.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

So if SM stays out of it, that would mean we cannot tell firsthand on the board or in PMs. That's the only way to truly stay out of it. None of us know if someone is being completely truthful or giving the breeder fodder for a lawsuit. I've seen posts closed and removed from people complaining (first hand) about their breeder and the way they were treated more than once in the past. Are we to pick and choose who we allow to bring forth information on the board? Who decides that? It seems to me we can keep it off the forum and away from legal problems by simply allowing the one with a question regarding their breeder to email those willing to share.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Cosy said:


> So if SM stays out of it, that would mean we cannot tell firsthand on the board or in PMs. That's the only way to truly stay out of it. None of us know if someone is being completely truthful or giving the breeder fodder for a lawsuit. I've seen posts closed and removed from people complaining (first hand) about their breeder and the way they were treated more than once in the past. Are we to pick and choose who we allow to bring forth information on the board? Who decides that? It seems to me we can keep it off the forum and away from legal problems by simply allowing the one with a question regarding their breeder to email those willing to share.


The way it's set up now seems to be fine. The "if it ain't broke" phrase seems to fit the situation. 

When I was admin most always when a thread was removed it was at the request of the OP.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Gosh, not sure what to think. I'm just a lover of these special ones, just like we all are. Now I am blessed with a great deal of knowledge from when I first started and I thank SM for that.

I do love Mary's idea. I don't have a deceitful mind, so now alot of this, is flying over my head. 

But believe me, I now understand, or can respect, some of the concerns.

I think Carina, Mary and Sher lend so much to this topic and have so much knowledge and experience to back it up.

All I want, as just a lover of these little ones, is that they are protected, the Ethical breeders are protected, and the potential buyer of a new pup is protected and it sounds like the site needs to be protected as well. Is that possible?

I will tell you, when I was a newbie, SO many people were so helpful, but I was scared to death. I wanted to remain local as much as possible, and the thought of having a baby flown to me, was too much for me to understand. But now I know, it can be done with an escort, as well as myself flying there.

I will say, that 20 or 30 people having wonderful experiences with a breeder would still not be enough to convince me 100% that is the direction I would definetly want to go. 

Whatever it takes to help the newbies or even someone wanting to add an addition, to protect the furbabies, the ethical breeders, the person or persons researching for a new pup or retiree, and I guess protecting the site as well, is probably the best way to go.

I'll leave it, as I should, with those that have a great deal of experience in this very tricky area and just hope for the best.

I just wish there was a perfect way to accomplish this, it would prove to be a helpful tool, as a start, for someone doing their research. But it is only a start, the puppy buyer, I think, shouldn't just go based on glowing feedback, or one disgruntled puppy buyer, hurting the reputation of an actual Ethical breeder.

I will have to say, I have learned so much by being a member here, and am grateful. It did take me awhile. So, just keep in mind, it's a whole lot of new information for a newbie, to first hear, and then even comprehend.

I just wish and hope for the very best.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Cosy said:


> It seems to me we can keep it off the forum and away from legal problems by simply allowing the one with a question regarding their breeder to email those willing to share.


I doubt many members would be willing to have their email addresses posted publicly. 

Even if they were, SM would still be a middleman, a facilitator.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

IMO, SM is a very informal board... to even think we should have a formalized place to recomment/vet breeders seems silly to me. Like we are the experts. All we have is a handful of opinions. To be perfectly honest, I am pretty turned off by the 'only buy from a reputable show breeder' talk now too...so many that sell tons of dogs hardly, if ever, show anymore. So what makes them any better than a miller type factory - perhaps they house them in a better manner? I'm still debating with myself over that one. I remember the old days when they said 'reputable' breeders didn't breed more than once a year - some seem to Always have pups available... why is that? They are either breeding them more than once a year or they have so many females in their program...at what point do they have so many these dogs don't have the great quality of life people think they have (ie, how much attention could each dog possibly be getting with always having puppies around?) I think it's a slippery slope that I'd personally rather NEVER see SM get involved in. I just stay out of those discussions for the most part.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

How would this be different or worse than me starting a thread in the breeder forum saying "I got my dogs from the following breeders and would be happy to communicate privately about my experience." and then inviting others of like mind to join in? That would be a perfectly acceptable post and in keeping with the rules of SM. I just don't understand all the overthinking of this concept and the doom and gloom about it. Read back through the thread. Two people already came out and said they did PM people who they saw had dogs from breeders on their radar screen. Not everybody is that confident about taking a chance and sending someone a private message, especially new people to this forum. And not everybody who receives the PM may feel comfortable answering. So we create a directory for people who are willing to communicate and would welcome receiving a PM. It's a voluntary endeavor. I wonder if the creator of the Yellow Pages was ever told in hindsight that that was a worthless endeavor.

And I don't see this in any way to be a matchmaking service. Those who know me even a little bit on this forum would undoubtedly agree that the VERY LAST thing I would ever support is a matchmaking service.

And no one ever mentioned putting anyone's email address out to the public. If people should not be communicating privately then why one earth do we have a PM button?


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

The day SM becomes a yellow pages for buying dogs is the day I stop coming at all. Are we pimps now?


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Sorry that post sounds so strong...backing back out of this thread now...


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Marj, just by allowing people to mention where they got their dog does make SM a facilitator of sorts.

Eileen, likening me or anyone else on this forum to a pimp is very hurtful and uncalled for.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

I didn't liken Anyone in particular, Mary, just likened the situation of setting up SM as an advertiser as the yellow pages are.


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

I have requested that Yung please remove this thread. I am very sorry that I ever asked the question, regarding breeders. 

I am new at forums - I should have asked my question via PM.

Again, this thread has become ugly, hurtful and non-productive.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

MaryH said:


> How would this be different or worse than me starting a thread in the breeder forum saying "I got my dogs from the following breeders and would be happy to communicate privately about my experience." and then inviting others of like mind to join in? That would be a perfectly acceptable post and in keeping with the rules of SM. I just don't understand all the overthinking of this concept and the doom and gloom about it. Read back through the thread. Two people already came out and said they did PM people who they saw had dogs from breeders on their radar screen. Not everybody is that confident about taking a chance and sending someone a private message, especially new people to this forum. And not everybody who receives the PM may feel comfortable answering. So we create a directory for people who are willing to communicate and would welcome receiving a PM. It's a voluntary endeavor. I wonder if the creator of the Yellow Pages was ever told in hindsight that that was a worthless endeavor.
> 
> And I don't see this in any way to be a matchmaking service. Those who know me even a little bit on this forum would undoubtedly agree that the VERY LAST thing I would ever support is a matchmaking service.
> 
> And no one ever mentioned putting anyone's email address out to the public. If people should not be communicating privately then why one earth do we have a PM button?


 
When I had pictures of Karli in my signature, I got PMs from newbies all the time asking where I bought her.


Joy


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Sandcastles said:


> I have requested that Yung please remove this thread. I am very sorry that I ever asked the question, regarding breeders.
> 
> I am new at forums - I should have asked my question via PM.
> 
> Again, this thread has become ugly, hurtful and non-productive.


 
Allie, you are a sweetheart, and I am sure alot of people, including myself are so grateful the questions was asked. But I do understand your upset. It really is so hard being a newbie of sorts, and I do understand. Hugs to you.

Eilleen: Please don't get discourgaged about show breeders. I've never adopted/purchased one from one myself, as I didn't really know they exsisted. Eileen, if there were not, loving, ethical show breeders, doing what they do, with love for the breed, we wouldn't have Maltese anymore. True Maltese, bred to the standard, and your Ethical ones, are the ones that are so concerned about their health lines. Gosh, that is so important.

I don't want anyone to suffer the pain of loosing one age 7 years of age, and one at 8 years of age, who I bought from very loving home breeders, with were very loving to all their pets. But that's what they were pets, and probably started out, with their first Maltese from a pet store.

It's just my opinion, that buying from a reputable show breeder that knows their healthlines inside and out, really lowers your risk of your pup, having serious health issues, like my precious Tina Marie. It is my opinion, that they are out there, the care, and care an awful lot, not only about the pups that are born, but also every fur-baby under their roof.

What if the ethical show breeders, put all of pet owners in the same category. I am sure you, yourself have seen post, from some petowners, mostly newbies, asking for medical advice, when it was so clear, their baby should have been taking to the vet immedialtely. Even when I am sitting at the vets office, waiting for my turn, I hear some petowners, giving information, to the girls upfront, and my heart just sinks. They are asked, how long have they had direara, or not eating, or drinking, been going on, and you would be FLOORED at the pet owners response. We surely don't want to be lumped in with them.

I hope this helps :heart:


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Sandcastles said:


> I have requested that Yung please remove this thread. I am very sorry that I ever asked the question, regarding breeders.
> 
> I am new at forums - I should have asked my question via PM.
> 
> Again, this thread has become ugly, hurtful and non-productive.


Frankly, and again brutally honest opinion coming : people get hurt too easily if someone states their honest opinion. Just because a thread gets uncomfortable is no reason to close it. Viva America...our troops are overseas fighting for our freedoms, incl freedom of speech. It may not always come out perfectly or pretty, but I am grateful that we are able to say what we want even if it isn't popular opinion.

If you wanna talk about getting hurt, I get very hurt that people put so much focus on the LOOK of the dog when each day the rescues and shelters are popping at the seams with babies needing homes. 

People PMing or even asking on open forum where other people got their dogs are doing so, I am pretty sure, based on the look of the dog...the health issues are not in their forefront. I can understand this as the pictures of some of these babies are absolutely to die for adorable. However, oftentimes, we don't hear about the health issues for maybe years down the road...by then, how many people will have gotten dogs because they loved the way someone's precious baby looked on an avatar or siggy? Some breeders will offer to buy a dog back that develops problems (that's probably cheaper than having to foot the bill for whatever the problem is in many cases) - also knowing that anyone with a heart would not be able to let go of their baby. 

I have no idea how one would even start any kind of a tracking to see what kind of health problems may or may not accompany any given breeder...and any sort of advertising ala yellow pages, would only favor those breeders who have very active breeding programs - naturally, those would be the most visible. Can this be a good thing?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

How does me speaking to someone privately about my experience in acquiring a dog from anywhere showcase anyone? I've gotten three dogs from 3 different breeders, have had a first-hand experience with each of them and each experience was different. I am as passionate about rescue as others. I believe in it, I support it, and for many years I ate, drank and slept it. For the most part the owners who surrendered their dogs did so because they made an impulsive decision that in the end was the wrong decision for them. If someone wants to buy a dog of any breed wouldn't you prefer that they use any and every tool available to buy from someone who is trying to produce a healthy dog and who is willing to advise the new owner to ensure the well-being of that dog? Yes, there are shelters overflowing with dogs who, with little or no training and/or vet care, will be the PERFECT, healthy, long-lived companion. But do any of us have the right to tell others what they MUST buy? 

I am going to say this just once more ... I did not propose that we have any sort of breeder directory where we review or advertise breeders. I proposed that we have a list of people willing to be contacted privately to answers questions about their own first-hand experience in buying their own dog. There are people on this forum who wanted to but never felt comfortable PMing someone they didn't know to ask them about their experience with a particular breeder. There are others who do not feel comfortable sharing their experience publicly but would share it privately. For the sake of all of God's creatures, isn't this world big enough for all of us?


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

I am all for reputable breeders being given all the credit due them. I have a concern for how this might let some of the less reputable ones get away. How would someone know that a person did not recommend a breeder if they did not make a purchase?
If a person chooses not to buy from a breeder due to problems they encountered in the process, then that person would not come forward to post they had purchased from that person. Another person might have had a positive experience about the same breeder and post. 
I've watched people be put through the ringer when they did come forward to make a negative comment about a favored breeder. I dare say there are a number of people who have had negative experiences who would be fearful to post due to this.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

No one would be recommending anyone because they will not be posting anything at all except the breeder name, kennel name, and location. You will not have to watch anybody be be praised or be put through the ringer because there will be nothing to watch. If I post the breeder name, kennel name and breeder location of the breeder from whom I got my dog and you are interested in possibly buying from the same breeder, then you could send you a PM (PRIVATE MESSAGE) asking me for my input. If I shred the breeder you still have the opportunity to weigh that against anything else you may have learned while doing your research. And you have every right to call said breeder and say "MaryH from the Spoiled Maltese Forum shredded you, saying blah, blah, blah." The breeder would have every opportunity to tell his/her side of the story.


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