# Tyler's Doctor Asked Us to be in an Appetite Stimulate Trial at the Hospital



## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

I've been monitoring Tyler's eating habits with his doctor since we brought him home and while he hasn't been concerned, he knows that I am. Tyler's doctor is the Director of Internal Medicine at our hospital and he's conducting a trial of a safe appetite stimulant for those like Tyler. He's asked me to be a part of it. It will last 3-4 days. I'll find out more Thursday when I bring him in for his Bordatella shot.

If anyone is interested in hearing more about the study or the results, please let me know!


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

I'd like to! 

I've had a couple of dogs who took Mirtazapine in their most senior days, and I wasn't really sure whether it helped them. All my dogs are healthy at the moment, but it's nice to be prepared!


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Are drugs involved? Which ones? Is he underweight? I would be extremely cautious of a trial if it isn't needed, especially with small dogs. Because toy breeds have such little body mass, side effects and adverse reactions are magnified, often affecting the immune system in negative ways.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

I'll absolutely let you know what I find out!



mss said:


> I'd like to!
> 
> I've had a couple of dogs who took Mirtazapine in their most senior days, and I wasn't really sure whether it helped them. All my dogs are healthy at the moment, but it's nice to be prepared!


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Hi Maggie:

I don't know much about it--I'll find out more tomorrow. I'd never do anything that could or would have negative effects or reactions. My doctor would not either. I don't think he's underweight--his weight is consistent, but sometimes he goes days without eating--and he is very skinny. He doesn't like much--I've tried practically everything out there. All he will eat is Vital (the roll) and even then he'll turn his head. A friend recommended Real Meat seasoning, which I sprinkle on his food and try to make eating exciting by making a big deal out of it, which gets his attention--sometimes I'm successful, sometimes not--it's very hit or miss. 

As I mentioned, my doctor is aware of this and it's been going on since we brought him home a year ago December. Around this past Thanksgiving, actually after, he was hardly eating for 3 or 4 days and that's when my doctor brought it up again. When we first spoke about it last year, he said some dogs don't eat much and others do. I think someone here once said her doctor said some dogs live to eat, others eat to live--mine is the eat to live.



maggieh said:


> Are drugs involved? Which ones? Is he underweight? I would be extremely cautious of a trial if it isn't needed, especially with small dogs. Because toy breeds have such little body mass, side effects and adverse reactions are magnified, often affecting the immune system in negative ways.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

I'm assuming your vet checked him for medical causes--my dogs were older, and pancreatitis was involved in one and possibly both of their cases. Another dog lost his appetite when his Cushings treatment brought on Addison's disease.

Anyway, that seems like an awful long time to go without eating. IF your dog is not sick but should get sick, that might complicate things!

Good luck. :grouphug:


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

He's definitely healthy--we had a blood test almost a year ago--his first yearly is 2/7. I probably wasn't exactly clear. I work from home, so I'm able to monitor. Here's an example. I give him breakfast at 8:30--he doesn't eat. After 30 minutes to an hour, I'll put it away and try every couple of hours. Sometimes, he doesn't eat all day until 4:30, sometimes, 7 or 8. For example, the last 2 days he hasn't eaten breakfast/lunch (I keep trying to get him to eat throughout the day). Last night he ate around 6:30 and I don't know what today will bring. Over the weekend, he ate breakfast and dinner--normally. He's got weird eating habits. 

The doctor doesn't seem overly concerned because his weight is stable/consistent and he shows no signs of being sick. I'll definitely talk to the doctor tomorrow when he goes over the study--see if there are any tests he feels we should take.

Thanks!!!



mss said:


> I'm assuming your vet checked him for medical causes--my dogs were older, and pancreatitis was involved in one and possibly both of their cases. Another dog lost his appetite when his Cushings treatment brought on Addison's disease.
> 
> Anyway, that seems like an awful long time to go without eating. IF your dog is not sick but should get sick, that might complicate things!
> 
> Good luck. :grouphug:


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

If it were me, I would not participate in a trial. If he is not underweight, and his labs are all good, I simply wouldn't pay his pickiness much mind...and I wouldn't do Bordatella either.

Bordetella: Does Your Dog Really Need the Kennel Cough Vaccine? | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. The school he goes to requires the Bordatella shot--although he got kennel cough anyway and I know it was from the school because he's not around other dogs at home.



pammy4501 said:


> If it were me, I would not participate in a trial. If he is not underweight, and his labs are all good, I simply wouldn't pay his pickiness much mind...and I wouldn't do Bordatella either.
> 
> Bordetella: Does Your Dog Really Need the Kennel Cough Vaccine? | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

I agree 100% with Pam! 
My first dog Dominic was the pickiest eater I've ever seen. Benjamin was always good but was learning to twist his nose to food then Elena happened. She's a shark and to make a long story short, both my boys are overweight right now as they know if they don't eat she will. I stopped offering food several times a day too, if they refuse breakfast, too bad as next meal will be dinner. That has helped a lot when the boys were being difficult.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

How old is he? If he's young, maybe he doesn't need as much as when he was a growing puppy. When you said he wouldn't eat for days, I thought you meant nothing at all.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

He's been the same way with eating since he's 10 weeks when I brought him home. He didn't like the food the breeder sent me home with--after the 2nd or 3rd day. I tried heating it, adding water, finally adding ground chicken. I ended up speaking to a diplomat from the Veterinary Nutrition Institute and a Professor/doctor at UC Davis who told me to try Vital. Prior to that I tried all kinds of food. He'd maybe eat it for a couple of days and then not eat it or just not eat it at all. So, this is definitely nothing new--LOL!

He's 15 months old.

I know, I'm sorry I didn't clarify. It makes me a nervous wreck if he skips a meal-to me that's not eating or hardly eating since it's close to 24 hours without eating sometimes.



mss said:


> How old is he? If he's young, maybe he doesn't need as much as when he was a growing puppy. When you said he wouldn't eat for days, I thought you meant nothing at all.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

What does he weigh?
Have you done the BAT, if so, how was it?
How is his blood work?


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

Have you tried Stella & Chewy's or Dr Harvey's veg to bowl with added protein? I'm yet to meet a dog that doesn't like those two. On our recently meet up in Santa Barbara, as soon as I placed their food down all the dogs came to have a feast


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

His weight has been consistent at around 7.23-7.28. We had blood work in April 2014 before he was neutered and he's in perfect health. The doctor did not suggest a BAT test.



edelweiss said:


> What does he weigh?
> Have you done the BAT, if so, how was it?
> How is his blood work?


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

He didn't go for Stella and Chewy's. I did not try Dr. Harvey's. I tried all types of Honest Kitchen if that's similar and a bunch of other stuff. He does not like kibble at all or canned food. 

He eats the Vital chicken roll for breakfast and beef and bison roll for dinner. That's pretty much all he likes as far as dog food goes. He'll also eat training treats that I use for school and he likes treats (Fruitables and Grandma Lucy cookies).



Dominic said:


> Have you tried Stella & Chewy's or Dr Harvey's veg to bowl with added protein? I'm yet to meet a dog that doesn't like those two. On our recently meet up in Santa Barbara, as soon as I placed their food down all the dogs came to have a feast


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

kd1212 said:


> He didn't go for Stella and Chewy's. I did not try Dr. Harvey's. I tried all types of Honest Kitchen if that's similar and a bunch of other stuff. He does not like kibble at all or canned food.
> 
> He eats the Vital chicken roll for breakfast and beef and bison roll for dinner. That's pretty much all he likes as far as dog food goes. He'll also eat training treats that I use for school and he likes treats (Fruitables and Grandma Lucy cookies).


How many treats does he get each day? Fruits less are awfully large for a toy breed so if he gets one or two of those a day, that's a meal. You might try withholding all treats one day and see what happens.

As for Bordatella, I understand the requirement however the vaccine only protects against about 30% of the strains of Bordatella and sometimes actually causes it.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

He doesn't get a lot of treats. I give tiny pieces of cookies when he pees--not all the time, maybe a a couple to a few. Fruitables are really tiny--maybe one. Training treats--only when we go to school. Honestly, the treats have nothing to do with his weird eating habits. Today, he's had a one tiny piece of a cookie and that's all. He's just starting now to eat his "breakfast"--he ate about half--it's around 7:20 here. This was the same yesterday and he ended up eating a full day's serving in one sitting. 

I honestly think he's stubborn and finicky!

I never gave the Bordatella to my other dog because he wasn't around dogs. I get the idea that it's not a cure all. Obviously, he got it even though immunized!!! The doctor said it's like a flu shot.



maggieh said:


> How many treats does he get each day? Fruits less are awfully large for a toy breed so if he gets one or two of those a day, that's a meal. You might try withholding all treats one day and see what happens.
> 
> As for Bordatella, I understand the requirement however the vaccine only protects against about 30% of the strains of Bordatella and sometimes actually causes it.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

kd1212 said:


> His weight has been consistent at around 7.23-7.28. We had blood work in April 2014 before he was neutered and he's in perfect health. The doctor did not suggest a BAT test.


It is recommended that all toy breeds do a BAT at around 16 wks. for a base-line for any problems that may surface later. I had a dog w/liver shunt in the days when they didn't do the BAT---I so wish they had had it then. I did go to DAVIS eventually & they were able to diagnose him. At that weight I would guess he doesn't have any liver issues, but would suggest that you ask you vet to do a BAT for future reference.
At that strong of a weight I would pay no attention to a pup that didn't eat. He will eat if he gets hungry enough. If he wants to eat it all in one meal then let him have it. I would feed 2 x per day & take it away after 15 min. & not feed him until the next meal. He won't starve. Like other training issues he may be training you instead of you training him. 
Do see if he doesn't eat at night that he has at least a small treat before bed to protect from acid reflux in the morning.:wub:


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

That's why the doctor isn't concerned because there's no dramatic changes in his weight. He's definitely skinny, but proportioned and his ribs are not sticking out. His mom was 6 pounds and dad 3.5, as I mentioned he's about 7.23-7.28. I'll ask about the BAT test. Someone else told me the same thing about the 15 minutes with the food. I haven't successfully tried that because I get so worried. It's an adjustment for me, my other dog was hungry all the time and ate everything. If he didn't eat, I knew he wasn't feeling well--hence my worrying about Tyler. Thanks for your advice!

H



edelweiss said:


> It is recommended that all toy breeds do a BAT at around 16 wks. for a base-line for any problems that may surface later. I had a dog w/liver shunt in the days when they didn't do the BAT---I so wish they had had it then. I did go to DAVIS eventually & they were able to diagnose him. At that weight I would guess he doesn't have any liver issues, but would suggest that you ask you vet to do a BAT for future reference.
> At that strong of a weight I would pay no attention to a pup that didn't eat. He will eat if he gets hungry enough. If he wants to eat it all in one meal then let him have it. I would feed 2 x per day & take it away after 15 min. & not feed him until the next meal. He won't starve. Like other training issues he may be training you instead of you training him.
> Do see if he doesn't eat at night that he has at least a small treat before bed to protect from acid reflux in the morning.:wub:


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## Ann Mother (Dec 18, 2013)

My dog has always been picky. He usually will eat only once a day in the evening @8pm. But he has a steady weight @ 6 lbs. he was worse when a puppy. No dog food did he like & I'd feed him skinless chicken tender. The vet knew. I finally got him to eat 1/4 cup of Puppy chicken Bil Jack with one ounce of chicken. He did not like any treats. Not fruitables nothing. I had to take chicken chunks to his obedience classes. I changed him to Fromms after reading about it here. I had to order it online because not sold where I live. He would eat the chicken first then about 10:30 or later would finish off the dry food. I tried feeding the kibble with chicken broth but he'd not eat it at all😞. I finally found a treat that he'd eat freeze dried beef liver. I switched back to Bil Jack with his chicken ounce @ Christmas time because I had ran out of Fromm's. He eats everything right up. Obviously better tasting to him😊.
I realize your dog does not like dog food but how about other food? For incidence when Cody had his dental he could have no kibble for 5 days so I fed him rice with his ounce of chicken.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

I think he has you trained. You could try the strict schedule - place food down, give him 15 min and take it away until next meal. Be consistent. It may take him a good week but at 7lb he can afford to skip a few meals. If he doesn't eat for a couple days give him a small treat before bed time. When Dom was picky I would switch foods only if he was spitting then out and boy he had no shame on it. 

About BAT test - I know a Maltese that came from s great breeder with no history of shunts at all and the dog was diagnosed with a shunt after the vet asked for a BAT test before the neutering surgery. This dog was 8lb by then and no signs of being sick. He ended having a successful surgery. 

The testing - it seems like you trust your vet and that's wonderful but why would you allow such a small dog that you know is healthy to go under a drug test? I'd think the unknown risks are high enough to keep me away. 

Just trying to help throwing some ideas around.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

My Kitzi isn't allergic to things like Lisi is and has never had a reaction to a vaccine like she does. We won some joint treats in a contest which are very, very tiny---I gave him a half one & it started hyper salivation with him that was awful & went on until I finally took him to the vet last Feb. It turns out there is something in the supplement to which he is allergic. He has had hyper-salivation 2 other times but I never knew what the cause was. I would be very careful after my experience w/Lisi & Kitzi with any supplement, vaccine, drug or the introduction of new foods or medications. I am a bit paranoid now! 
I weighed both of them tonight because we will be flying this wk-end. Lisi is a very healthy 5 lbs. exactly & Kitzi is a very healthy 6 pounds exactly. If one of them didn't eat I would take my own advice & refeed at the next meal. If it went on longer than 4/5 days that they would not touch food I would reconsider. I truly don't believe that a healthy dog will starve themselves.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Hi Pat:

He'll eat chicken and rice, but because it doesn't have vitamins and minerals the nutritionist did not feel that would be a well balanced meal. I tried a home cooking recipe that incorporated a good balance, but he wouldn't touch it. The Vital seems to be it--hopefully, they won't go out of business!



Ann Mother said:


> My dog has always been picky. He usually will eat only once a day in the evening @8pm. But he has a steady weight @ 6 lbs. he was worse when a puppy. No dog food did he like & I'd feed him skinless chicken tender. The vet knew. I finally got him to eat 1/4 cup of Puppy chicken Bil Jack with one ounce of chicken. He did not like any treats. Not fruitables nothing. I had to take chicken chunks to his obedience classes. I changed him to Fromms after reading about it here. I had to order it online because not sold where I live. He would eat the chicken first then about 10:30 or later would finish off the dry food. I tried feeding the kibble with chicken broth but he'd not eat it at all😞. I finally found a treat that he'd eat freeze dried beef liver. I switched back to Bil Jack with his chicken ounce @ Christmas time because I had ran out of Fromm's. He eats everything right up. Obviously better tasting to him😊.
> I realize your dog does not like dog food but how about other food? For incidence when Cody had his dental he could have no kibble for 5 days so I fed him rice with his ounce of chicken.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

That's probably true and he's spoiled. He's at a healthy weight, but he can't afford to lose much--he's very thin and long. I'll try the 15 min. thing again and I'm sure he'll eat in the evening. His habits are similar to Pat's dog, who posted above.

I'm going to discuss the BAT test with my doctor and as far as the trial goes, I will find out more information on it before agreeing. I'm interested if it's natural with no effects--it's just for a few days. I haven't been given any information on it yet except it's a study, so I don't know if there are effects.



Dominic said:


> I think he has you trained. You could try the strict schedule - place food down, give him 15 min and take it away until next meal. Be consistent. It may take him a good week but at 7lb he can afford to skip a few meals. If he doesn't eat for a couple days give him a small treat before bed time. When Dom was picky I would switch foods only if he was spitting then out and boy he had no shame on it.
> 
> About BAT test - I know a Maltese that came from s great breeder with no history of shunts at all and the dog was diagnosed with a shunt after the vet asked for a BAT test before the neutering surgery. This dog was 8lb by then and no signs of being sick. He ended having a successful surgery.
> 
> ...


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