# Attacking bigger dogs



## violetmay (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Everone

I'm new to having a maltese and new to having dogs. We adopted a maltese from the pound about 7 weeks ago. We have called him Scruffy and enrolled him in the local dog obedience club. My 10 year old daughter takes him through the obedience classes. The pound estimated he is about 3 years old. He wasn't desexed when he came to the pound, and does not know what a bone is (wont chew) and cannot retrieve at all (doesn't even bother to look at the thing you throw). He's pretty much been treated like a baby up to now and the whole family has enjoyed having a dog for the first time.

When I take him for walks he always tries and attacks dogs bigger than him, he isn't usually concerned about people or other small dogs. He even behaves aggressively towards tree stumps and rocks - so it is anything big.

Last night at dog obedience Scruffy got free and attacked the Sheep (this is a 7 month old dog that looks like a gold sheep - a very big silly playful puppy). I did not see the attack as I took my son to the toilet and missed it. When we got back, Scruffy was continually trying to bite my daughter and the trainer was yelling very loudly at Scruffy. The next thing I knew the president of the dog club was sitting next to me discussing Scruffy's behaviour. Felt like being in the principals office LOL!!

Among other things he said not to pick him up and have him on our laps, as Scruffy needs to stay on the ground so he does not feel like he is dominant. It's really hard not to pick him, Scruffy is really a lap dog and pretty much spends his time going from one lap to the other. He said not to let him on the couch or on beds, but Scruffy sleeps on an older couch we have in the loungeroom, I'm now keeping him off the other couches.

He said when walking him to use a check chain and to stop him from attacking the big dogs. The president offered one-on-one training for Scruffy if he doesn't get better in a few weeks. The dog club is not for profit, and it's very cheap $15 to join for a year and $5 a night for training, so there is no cost to worry about regarding training costs.

I'm feeling rather confused. Is obedience worth all this misery, of not being able to cuddle him in my lap all the time? On the other hand I am really concerned as he bit my daughter (he bit her when she was trying to get him loose from the Sheep). Maybe he needs obedience training and needs to learn not to attack bigger dogs (the problem is beyond the joke now). My daughter wanted to go through training so she could do agility with Scruffy, she was the "lead" girl at the most recent big agility trials, and really can't wait until Scruffy is ready to do agility (I really have my doubts it is possible, he hasn't even mastered sit in the 7 lessons he has had and all the practices we do at home).

Just wanted to hear others thoughts on maltese attacking bigger dogs and what can be done?

Anyone got any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

1. Find a new trainer. Treating aggression with a leash correction is not going to get you far. If your vet can refer you to a veterinary behaviorist, that would be ideal. Otherwise, look for a trainer with a solid understanding of learning theory and animal behavior. They will want to use positive, motivational methods (such as clicker trainer, systematic desensitization, etc.) instead of corrections. 

2. I would suspect two problems here. First, you have a reactive dog (fear aggression). Second, you have a dog who needs to learn that you are the leader and he should look to you for guidance instead of taking control himself. The biting is a very serious issue and you need to take this seriously and put the work in. Otherwise your dog is a big liability. 

3. Get your dog neutered. Intact male dogs actually attract other dogs in a negative manner due to their hormones. This is not going to help with his reactivity towards other dogs. Also, removing the hormones may remove some of his anxiety around other dogs (is that another intact male??? a bitch in heat???). 

4. Ali Brown's "Scaredy Dog" is an excellent starting place to educate yourself along with advice for working through this. Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash" is a great explanation of how dogs learn. Jean Donaldson's "Fight..." is an excellent book on dog-dog aggression. And the #1 leaflet I think you should get is Patricia McConnell's "How to be the leader of the pack". It will explain to you the importance of controlling resources (ie your lap, couches) while having a happy home. 

5. In the meantime, read up on nothing in life is free/leading the dance/ruff love. This is part of what your training school recommended (off of laps and furniture) but guides you in controlling more resources (food, doors, etc.). 

TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY. A biting dog, regardless of size, is a liability and you do not want your dog taken away from you or euthanized due to this.


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## jaceybaby (Sep 16, 2008)

Get a new trainer. A person who was yelling at your dog does not deserve to have a class. 

Say very calm and assertive. YOU have to be the alpha dog. Assert dominence. 

Also, get your Scruffy nuetered. 

I will be back later. Gotta run!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

One other thing...

If you put the work into this and resolve his problem, so long as his knees are in good shape there is no reason why he could not excel in agility! My boys do agility and loooove it.


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## violetmay (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks for your help JMM and Jaceybaby.

Sorry I should have said that Scruffy was neutered at the pound.

The trainer that he had that night was not the regular trainer he has had all the other times he has gone to dog obedience. He's always had a woman up till now, so I don't know why it was a different trainer this time. I'll make sure my daughter is with the female trainer next week. I think somehow my daughter got into the wrong class (there are always two level one classes going on simultaneously and in the past I've told my daughter to not go into the class with the Sheep as Scruffy has always wanted to attack him from day one, so we have avoided the sheep up till now) and as I had my son with me and he wanted to climb to the top of the little mountain behind the dog obedience car park, I didn't stay and monitor the class my daughter was in.

Thanks so much for all your advice. I'll talk to them next week about clicker trainer (they did mention on our introductory night that they experimented with clicker trainer, but it that it was too confusing with heaps of dogs (it's a big club) and lots of clickers. My friend who lives interstate mentioned that at her dog club, once her dog behaved aggressively towards another dog and the trainers took the lead off my friend, and put these two dogs together until they were friends. So I guess that was a form of desensitization. I certainly like the idea of desensitization a whole heap better. 

Thanks for all the book and training theory names, I obviously have a lot of research to do. I'll have to turn up next week armed with knowledge. I'm from Australia, so I hope some of what you listed in available.

He really doesn't understand the whole check chain thing at all. With the yelling, they do teach at dog obedience to use a loud voice. I have tried it a few times and occasionally he does sit when I say it in this loud voice, but I think it is more from the shock of the loudness rather than understanding what sit means. He ignores saying sit in a regular voice, or when it is out of context (going for a walk). 

Thanks again for all your help. Wow, looks like I have a lot to learn LOL!!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Give your vet a ring and see if they can recommend a behaviorist or a trainer good at dealing with these things. Also you might ring the humane society and ask them. Hopefully someone can get you a resource in person. But meanwhile, definitely look into some of the books. None of them are pricey here in the U.S....all paperbacks.


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## jaceybaby (Sep 16, 2008)

Jacey bit a Boxer today! I feel HORRIBLE! The Boxer screeched in pain! LOL!

*agrees with JMM* Watch some behavior shows (The Dog Whisperer, It's Me or the Dog, etc.) that can help and try and get the Cesar Millan books. Particularly the 2nd one, Be the Pack Leader! 

Good luck!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I would not recommend Cesar Milan.


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## BABYSNOWY (Jul 8, 2008)

Snowy gets like that with bigger dogs (I dont think she realizes she is only about 4 lbs) 

One day in petsmart she is barking up a storm. when I look at what she is barking it was a dog bigger than me...... I picked her up and said to her "you need to calm down because when that dog eats you up he will then eat me" lol

But I think the barking is a playful one (I hope lol)


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## kez (Aug 21, 2008)

QUOTE (BABYSNOWY @ Sep 19 2008, 07:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=637650


> Snowy gets like that with bigger dogs (I dont think she realizes she is only about 4 lbs)
> 
> One day in petsmart she is barking up a storm. when I look at what she is barking it was a dog bigger than me...... I picked her up and said to her "you need to calm down because when that dog eats you up he will then eat me" lol
> 
> But I think the barking is a playful one (I hope lol) [/B]


My samson is the very same. there is a boxer(poppy) that gets walked by our house everyday,and if we happen to be out......wee samson will chase her right across the park barking like mad and nipping at her anckles,poppy always comes back for more,she likes this game,but if samson does this to the wrong dog one day,i fear he will be eaten.....and then prob me too :bysmilie:


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## violetmay (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi, I thought I would give you all an update. Since getting in trouble at dog obedience and doing what they said (don't pick him up, let him on sofas etc) he's gotten a LOT worse, now instead of trying to attack big dogs, he is now attacking ALL dogs, even little tiny ones he would have ignored a few weeks ago. It is definitely a fear response, he seems to be very insecure. We've gone back to giving him lots of hugs, pats and cuddles to help make him feel secure and loved. Trying find way to socialise him that don't involve stress - general walking on the lead he finds stressful if there are other dogs around, but if he is in an area where he is relaxed (like a dog off the lead area) he is better and has been Ok with other dogs. It's just trying to find activities that he doesn't find stressful.

Regarding obedience I've done some reading and have decided to try clicker training as it is a positive method of training. He seems to be responding well and really likes it so far, but a long way to go. I bought a treat pouch to go on my waist and the combination of the clicker and the little pouch seems to work better for him and he is always eager for me to get the pouch out, so he can have more treats. There are videos of you-tube to watch and heaps of info on the net on clicker training. I feel a LOT happier with this decision, it's a lot nicer way to train and more fun for both human and dog.

Went to regular obedience class early this week (before starting clicker training) and I took the dog through instead of my daughter. He found the whole class too stressful to even be able to eat a treat, I even had other people offer me some of their treats which their dogs loved, but Scruffy wasn't eating anything. It's made me realise just how stressful he finds the whole dog obedience class experience, so it's basically now trying to build no stress/good associations with other dogs instead of stressful ones. He now associates all other dogs with fear and stress, so I need to change that.

Thanks for all your help and comments  I'm going to find a behaviorist if the behavior with other dogs doesn't get better.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Sounds like you are doing well. 

You are right on to hold off on classes until he is up to handling him. If he has shut down (won't take treats), no progress will be made. Once you have some good "watch me" or other redirection behavior, you can try setting him up to walk by ONE dog at a distance he is comfortable at. Make a few passes getting him a little closer and that's it! The more positive experiences he has at a distance, the better his chances for progressing quicker later.


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## violetmay (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks JMM.

We turned up at dog obedience last night, thinking I may be able to try the classes with the clicker. But poor Scruffy was so scared, he wouldn't walk on the grass of the big field they train on. He didn't want to leave the carpark - he was really terrified. I chatted to the president of the club and he was telling me that it was Ok to correct dogs with check chains etc. I asked about clicker training and they said it takes too long. So it was bye bye to the dog obedience club. We drove home straight away - Scruffy can't cope with the stress of dog obedience they way it is taught there.

On the weekend I went to the local dog off the lead park at 4.00pm thinking he would be Ok as he has always been Ok at dog parks before. I didn't realise that this was peakhour at the dog park. There must have been 15-20 other people there with their dogs - all the other dogs were happy and playing together. I didn't dare take Scruffy off the lead, he was really going crazy barking at all the dogs, but especially the big/gold/fluffy variety, he wanted to kill those. I really came home quite shocked with how just bad he is with other dogs. He is Ok with some smaller smaller dogs, but mostly it is pretty bad and he tries to attack most other dogs.

I've put a whole heap of positive dog training books on order at the library (gee they are popular), and have nearly finished reading the Dog Whisperer by Paul Owens. It's really lovely and finally some advice about a dog that can't get the "down" command (reward when the dog even gets part of the way down) - the dog club trainer said he didn't know what to do to make Scruffy understand down. I've got a lot to learn, but yeah, thank you to everyone who told me about positive dog training.


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## Gracie's Mommy (Feb 14, 2008)

Hi! I am such a novice myself, but one thing pops out at me from your posts. You keep mentioning a check chain. I don't know what a check chain is, but if it is a collar, as I am thinking, you should not use it as it can damage your dog's trachea. Only a harness should be used, and a step-in is good. Good luck with your training! Give your sweet Scruffy lots of hugs! :grouphug:


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## violetmay (Sep 5, 2008)

A check chain is a metal chain that slips, so you can pull it tight and choke a dog.

I didn't know that you were supposed to use harnesses with maltese. I have one harness that I bought, but I've only put it on him once as it was such a complicated procedure LOL!! I'll check out step in harnesses, I hadn't heard of those, so will give them a try - they'd have to be easier to on than the one I have already.

I was reading in that Dog Whisper book last night that you can buy some leashes that have elastic in them, so they don't jerk the dog too severely. I don't know if they sell them here in Australia, I was just going to try to cut up one of Scruffy's shorter leashes that we don't use and put sew some elastic to either end of the cut leash. I'll have to have a look on the net to see how long the elastic should be.

Thanks for your help


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