# Belle's Liver Biopsy Results



## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi Everyone. I am so upset with my Vet right now I needed to vent and ask if any of you can tell me what this biopsy results means; as in what kind of a shunt it is; possible prognosis from one of our experts here on SM. My vet has gone on a vacation and the other vet didn't know for sure what it means







The report says MICROSCOPIC DESCRIPTION:- Multiple punch or wedge biopsies of the liver are examined. All similar. Portal Triads are in close approximation to one another. Each exhibits one or more redundant blood vessels, which appear to be small arterioles. The capsular surface is somewhat irregular. Scattered Lipogranulomas are evident within the sinusoibs. - DIAGNOSIS: - See Comments. COMMENTS: - The spectrum of lesions identified is compatible with a Portosystmic Shunt. No Hepatic inflammation, Fibrosis, or Necrosis is present.

HELP: Does she have a portosystemic shunt or MVD? Fibrosis, or Necrosis isn't present - what does this mean? I will go nuts waiting for the Vet to be back from his vacation even if it is only 1 more week. Thanks for letting me vent my anger with my Vet and please help me understand if you have any knowledge from what the report says. Would this be genetic or heredity and my breeder should make things right? Thanks!







Disgruntled Jackie & Belle


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

I'm sorry I cant help but I wanted to offer some support to you and your darling little baby. 

Isnt there anyone in your vet's office at all who can answer your questions?? I would be mad too! You can't wait a week for heavens sake! 

good luck!


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

no fribrosis and no necrosis is a good thing...fibrosis is scarring and necrosis is death..let me go look in my pathology book to see what the findings are for mvd verses shunt...


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Holliberry_@Feb 22 2005, 01:12 PM
> *I'm sorry I cant help but I wanted to offer some support to you and your darling little baby.
> 
> Isnt there anyone in your vet's office at all who can answer your questions??  I would be mad too!  You can't wait a week for heavens sake!
> ...


[/QUOTE]
No, not really and that's why I am so angry and upset. The other vet said well she does have a liver shunt problem as I took a peek at the report but I don't really know what kind or the prognosis.WHAT???? Then why the heck are you there. I reallly like or liked my Vet but I'm wondering now. I know I could have them find him and demand that he call me but if he isn't even in the office where the report is how sure am I that he is really going to give me an accurate diagnosis and prognosis. Sorry, here I go ranting again, my husband didn't help he said well he will be back in one more week and then we will know. Not good enough for me so back off buddy! I think I best go take a chill pill. Thanks for our support!


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyMontava_@Feb 22 2005, 01:15 PM
> *no fribrosis and no necrosis is a good thing...fibrosis is scarring and necrosis is death..let me go look in my pathology book to see what the findings are for mvd verses shunt...
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37032*


[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much Lady Montava. Belle & I appreciate it.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

oh man... I would love to hear what that all means! Did you try looking on the internet for more info?


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I'm sorry I can't help with what all this means, but I am sure you'll find answers. LadyMontava is such a valuable resource here. 

Extra kisses for your pooch.


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## littlepeanut (Dec 5, 2004)

I'm sorry I don't know what it means either.







You have my best wishes though! I hope you find out what you need to know. Big hugs and kissses for Belle


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

i found this: Hepatic histologic changes in animals with PSS include generalized congestion of central veins and sinusoids, lobular collapse, bile duct proliferation, hypoplasia of intrahepatic portal tributaries, proliferation of small vessels and lymphatics, diffuse fatty infiltration, hepatocellular atrophy, and cytoplasmic vacuolization. These pathology changes can also be seen in dogs with hepatic microvascular dysplasia that do not have single congneital shunts. 

which to me means the biopsy can look the same for both...im still lookin around though...


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

well im not finding n e thing else..wish i was closer to school..i would run to the library...seems to be they could have seen the shunt when they had her open..but im not sure...maybe JMM can help more since she knows more about MVD


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

yes, i have been told that they will or could see the shunt if kodie had one if they opened him up... (the first vet told me that)... after doing the radioactive test at cornell (which was the last vet I took him to)... it showed no shunt. But... if they were still in question after that test they would have requested to open him up and LOOK at the liver to see if there was a shunt. 
Sounds to me like MVD... thats when you have many tiny vessals instead of just one big one (which would be a shunt). Just from common knowledge of what i know from my little kodie... he appears healthy and you have told us that belle seems healthy too.. sooo i bet its MVD. 
I'm NOOOO doc though... just voicing my opinion like always..









let me rephrase that... cornell or any normal hospital should always check VISUALLY for the shunt when the pup is open.. not just take the sample.


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

thats what i was thinking too but didnt want to say "yes thats what it is" and be wrong cause im supposed to be the "all knowing one" LOL


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

yeah... JMM will prob know more cause i think she did a biospy for Mikey... i didnt for kodie.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

If the vet at your vet's office doesn't understand how to read the report, is it possible that she can refer to you a vet at another practice who might know more? Vets usually know each other and who is good, etc. Even if you had to pay for a consultation fee, that is better than waiting. 

If she can't help you with a referral then can you check with friends and see who their vets are and then call one for a consultation appointment... Using a friend's name who is a good client may help you get the appointment quickly. I agree... waiting is not an option!!


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

i dont understand why the vet that is there cant call the pathologist and let the pathologist explain it, so they can explain it to u. that is usually how it works.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Didn't you say the surgery/biopsy was done at UC Davis? Can you contact the doctor you worked with there for an interpretation of the pathology report? They probably are more knowledgeable on this sort of thing anyway ??

EDIT: I went to Google and searched for "Portosystemic Shunt in Maltese" and quite a few sites came up. You may want to look at some of them as you may find some information that is useful until you can speak with a vet.... Here is one that is very good. It explains things in a simplified manner. It may not be an answer to your biopsy but it does give a lot of info, in general.http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/pss.htm


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Thanks everybody. I know they were thinking MVD but all of that report didn't sound like that to me. The word Portosystemic shunt surprised me but I'm not very knowledgeable about shunts yet. Thanks Kallie & Catcher's Mom. I'll check out the website you found for me. I did fax a copy of the biopsy to Davis and ask the Doctor that examined Belle there to check it over and get back to me. Belle's own Vet here did the spay and biopsy.







Jackie & Belle


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyMontava_@Feb 22 2005, 01:43 PM
> *i found this: Hepatic histologic changes in animals with PSS include generalized congestion of central veins and sinusoids, lobular collapse, bile duct proliferation, hypoplasia of intrahepatic portal tributaries, proliferation of small vessels and lymphatics, diffuse fatty infiltration, hepatocellular atrophy, and cytoplasmic vacuolization. These pathology changes can also be seen in dogs with hepatic microvascular dysplasia that do not have single congneital shunts.
> 
> which to me means the biopsy can look the same for both...im still lookin around though...
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37043*


[/QUOTE]
On Belle's Biopsy Result there is a website to receive the information on the biopsy. You have to be a vet and sign in so it did me no good. I don't know if it would say more than the report that I was faxed. It is www.vetconnect.com and Belle's account # is 1208. You think it is MVD, is that correct? Which would mean watching the diet and prayerfully no clinical signs will appear later if we are careful? Thanks!`







Jackie & Belle


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## ilove_d&m (Apr 7, 2004)

Sorry you are going tru all this mess.

I will keep you and your baby in my prayers!


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle+Feb 22 2005, 06:40 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On Belle's Biopsy Result there is a website to receive the information on the biopsy. You have to be a vet and sign in so it did me no good. I don't know if it would say more than the report that I was faxed. It is www.vetconnect.com and Belle's account # is 1208. You think it is MVD, is that correct? Which would mean watching the diet and prayerfully no clinical signs will appear later if we are careful? Thanks!`







Jackie & Belle
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37077
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i tried to see if students could register..but there was nothing that said vet student..it prob is the same results..maybe images are available.
i think it sounds like MVD but according to the article i read they can both look the same under the microscope. so i am still unsure..i couldnt find MVD in my pathology book to compare the results..it only had PSS. did they look for a shunt when they had her open?


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

ok i found this again Biopsy findings (of Portosystemic shunts) are indistinguishable from those in hepatic microvascular dysplasia so why did they do the biopsy? or did they not know if she had either of the two? so basically all the biopsy tells u is that she has one of them. it doesnt tell u which.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Jackie, Here is a fabulous web site. It very simply explains everything about the disease. It is from the U of Tennessee vet school. This is really good info:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.shtml


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LadyMontava_@Feb 22 2005, 07:29 PM
> *ok i found this again Biopsy findings (of Portosystemic shunts) are indistinguishable from those in hepatic microvascular dysplasia  so why did they do the biopsy?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37085*


[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the exact same thing. Nothing I have read since Jackie posted her problem indicates that a biopsy is how it is diagnosed. ??? I think I know just enough to be "dangerous"... The info on the UTK site is very well presented... I'm still reading.....

EDIT: OK... here is more info about the biopsy.... from UTK:



How is a shunt diagnosed?
On blood work, dogs with congenital liver shunts usually have low blood urea nitrogen (BUN) and albumin concentrations. They may be slightly anemic or have red blood cells that are smaller than normal ("microcytosis"). They also may have increases in liver enzymes ("AST", "ALT"). Their urine may be dilute or infected and contain small spiky crystals ("ammonium biurate"). None of these laboratory changes are specific for a liver shunt; however, when veterinarians see these abnormalities, they will usually measure bile acid or ammonia concentrations to evaluate liver function. A liver shunt cannot be definitively diagnosed by blood work; shunting can only be found with advanced techniques such as scintigraphy, ultrasound, portography, Cat scan ("CT"), MRI, or exploratory surgery.

Do all dogs with shunts have high bile acids?
Dog with shunts will almost always have high bile acids 2 hours after eating, and usually at least 95% of dogs will have high bile acids after a 12 hour fast. Samples are taken at both time periods ("fasting" or "preprandial", and "fed" or "postprandial") for several reasons. Some dogs normally release bile acids in the middle of the night and therefore naturally have a higher than normal fasting sample. Other dogs may have fat in their blood ("lipemia") after eating, which can interfere with the test. If only one blood sample can be obtained, it is best to take it 2 hours after eating.

Do all dogs with high bile acids have shunts?
Bile acids can be increased with any liver disease. *Bile acids can also be mildly increased in normal dogs, particularly in some breeds (such as Maltese) where chemicals in their blood interfere with the test. *Most dogs with liver shunts have fed bile acids over 100 (normal <15-20). If the bile acids are only mildly increased or the animal seems normal, many veterinarians will simply rerun the test in 3-4 weeks.

*Can a shunt be diagnosed with a liver biopsy?
In animals with shunts, the liver is smaller than normal because it is atrophied from poor blood flow. On a liver biopsy, the tissues appear shrunken. Some of the vessels are very tiny, while others multiply in an attempt to improve the blood supply and drainage. These changes are called hepatic microvascular dysplasia. Hepatic microvascular dysplasia (HMD or MVD) can also occur in dogs without liver shunts; therefore, other tests are needed to be determine if a shunt is also present.*


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyMontava+Feb 22 2005, 05:23 PM-->
> 
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*
*[/QUOTE]
i tried to see if students could register..but there was nothing that said vet student..it prob is the same results..maybe images are available.
i think it sounds like MVD but according to the article i read they can both look the same under the microscope. so i am still unsure..i couldnt find MVD in my pathology book to compare the results..it only had PSS. did they look for a shunt when they had her open?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37083
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Thank you for trying. I didn't specifically ask are u going to look for a shunt while you are in there but I assume







that he did. The Vet did tell me after the surgery that her kidneys and bladder looked great and her liver looked "pretty good". I didn't think until after I got off the phone to ask what pretty good meant. Especially when the kidneys & bladder looked great. I was going to ask him when I got the results back what "pretty good" meant exactly. I really do like my Vet but at this particular moment I am wondering. How could he not think I would anxiously be awaiting his input. This was supposed to tell us exactly what is wrong with her liver as her bile acids both pre and post were slightly elevated but not consistent with a liver shunt. I guess I'll just have to wait. Thanks again!~Jackie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle+Feb 22 2005, 08:18 PM-->
> 
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Thank you for trying. I didn't specifically ask are u going to look for a shunt while you are in there but I assume







that he did. The Vet did tell me after the surgery that her kidneys and bladder looked great and her liver looked "pretty good". I didn't think until after I got off the phone to ask what pretty good meant. Especially when the kidneys & bladder looked great. I was going to ask him when I got the results back what "pretty good" meant exactly. I really do like my Vet but at this particular moment I am wondering. How could he not think I would anxiously be awaiting his input. This was supposed to tell us exactly what is wrong with her liver as her bile acids both pre and post were slightly elevated but not consistent with a liver shunt. I guess I'll just have to wait. Thanks again!~Jackie
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37094
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The thing that seems odd to me with your vet is that they would give you the results without a consultation appointment. My vet always schedules a consultation appointment to discuss any lab results and it is at that time that I would learn of results.. when I can then ask questions, etc. I can't imagine... on a dog or person, giving someone a lab report without an explanation... that is cruel!!


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

This is why kodie had the radio active dye test to watch the blood flow. That test in my own opinion HAS to be done... it shows more than an ultra sound. Did you PM JMM?
From my understanding ... the radio active test and ultra sound, blood tests, etc.. gets done before a biopsy. The results of those tests may suggest that no biopsy is needed. I thought the biopsy is only to help treat the MVD... but if the dog isnt sick then what is the need to do the biopsy? Then again... this is a baby girl... soo its better to get it all done at once... i was in a different situation because kodie is a boy and neutering is different then a spay.
If this was done at a university... they are supposed to check everything. Kodie got a full physical and they checked everything for a shunt. Do you feel the doctor you are dealing with is covering all the basis'?


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

I am of no help to you with this,but to say my thoughts and prayers are with you.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

1. All pathologists are not created equal, especially with PSS and MVD in Maltese. 

2. Where did the pathology go?

3. Ignore whatever results you just got and have your vet get the slides or sample and send them to Dr. Center at Cornell. It is very easy to do. They call the lab, you pay the shipping, you pack them up and send them to Dr. Center (I can give you the address) and have your vet call her office to let them know they are coming). She reviews them and your dog's records and calls your vet. 

I did biopsies on both of my dogs and got basically no answer (portovascular anomaly) by some wonderful general pathologists. Dr. Tobias at UTenn, the guru of livershunts, recommended Dr. Center, the guru of MVD. 

Dr. Center is very experienced in looking at samples specifically from Maltese. Belle had scintigraphy to rule out a shunt if I remember correctly, so these findings most likely correspond with MVD. Maltese actually have another unique set of liver pathologies that includes eosinophilic inflammation in zone 3 (a portion of the triad of the portal veins) which Dr. Center has a treatment protocol for. She has not published on this yet.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Feb 22 2005, 08:54 PM
> *1. All pathologists are not created equal, especially with PSS and MVD in Maltese.
> 
> 2. Where did the pathology go?
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Jackie, on the UTK web site that I had posted a link for in an earlier post, the section on liver shunts was written by a Dr. Karen Tobias... assume that is who you are referring to above.... that is good to know that the info was certainly written by an expert. That link was: http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.shtml


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Feb 22 2005, 06:54 PM
> *1. All pathologists are not created equal, especially with PSS and MVD in Maltese.
> 
> 2. Where did the pathology go?
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Thank you JMM. I had asked the Vet about sending the results to Cornell but it did not get done. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I tend to be a people pleaser and don't like to rock any boats. When my Vet returns I will ask him to get the slides or sample and have them sent to Dr. Center at Cornell. I appreciate your help and input and will be looking for the address for Dr. Center. Belle still appears to be fine clinically, but a little more vocal since she was spayed ha! so I am not so much worried as frustrated. I love my Vet but am disappointed in him right now, but none of us is perfect.







Jackie & Belle
EDITED: The results went to IDEXX Veterinary Services West Region I would assume since we are in CA.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Feb 22 2005, 09:10 PM
> *Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I tend to be a people pleaser and don't like to rock any boats.
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

It's nice to be a "people pleaser" but in this case I think we will all forgive you if you are a little assertive!!









Do what you have to do get your baby the very best medical care and I'm sure no one will fault you for it. I am so glad that JMM was able to share that wonderful resource with you. I even feel better!! I get so caught up in other people's problems that it worries me to death!! So, I hope Dr. Center can help you and Belle!!


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I can offer you no help, but I sure am thinking about you and Belle. I hate that you aren't getting the answers that you need from your vet. Thank goodness for some of the people here who can offer you some suggestions.

Keep positive thoughts!


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Thanks Kallie & Catcher's Mom. I agree with you, I should have been given a consultation appointment to discuss the lab results. They want me to bring Belle in to have her stitches removed by a tech without her Vet being there. I guess, that is OK I'm just really getting annoyed over anything right now with my Vet. I am so happy that JMM shared the resource with me again. I am looking forward to another opinion now more than ever. 
Kodie's Mom - Belle did have the radio active dye test and the ultra sound at U. C. Davis. Because clinically Belle showed no symptoms and her pre and post serum bile acids were elevated (but not as high as we normally see with liver shunts) that is why the biopsy was done.
Susan - Thanks for always coming through with kind thoughts and positive input.
Thanks to everyone here at SP you are all the greatest. I think I can sleep better tonight.







~ Jackie & Belle aka White Lightning


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Feb 22 2005, 10:18 PM
> *Thanks Kallie & Catcher's Mom.  I agree with you, I should have been given a consultation appointment to discuss the lab results.  They want me to bring Belle in to have her stitches removed by a tech without her Vet being there.  I guess, that is OK I'm just really getting annoyed over anything right now with my Vet.  I am so happy that JMM shared the resource with me again.  I am looking forward to another opinion now more than ever.
> Kodie's Mom - Belle did have the radio active dye test and the ultra sound at U. C. Davis.  Because clinically Belle showed no symptoms and her pre and post serum bile acids were elevated (but not as high as we normally see with liver shunts) that is why the biopsy was done.
> Susan - Thanks for always coming through with kind thoughts and positive input.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I'll PM the contact information. Dr. Center herself is notoriously hard to get a hold of by phone, but you need to make sure her office knows the biopsy is coming for her, not pathology, and that it is mailed to her, not pathology. Don't let your vet forget a copy of her records including the report from UC Davis (they should send your vet a report from her visit). 

She usually takes a few weeks to get the sample, have whatever stains she needs done, and call you. With Jonathan it was fast because I just sent his slides (probably within a week of when they arrived). With Mikey, I sent unprocessed tissue from his liver plus intestinal and stomach samples and it took about 3 weeks since I went through her and not pathology (however, I only had to pay for the special stains).


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JMM+Feb 22 2005, 08:41 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll PM the contact information. Dr. Center herself is notoriously hard to get a hold of by phone, but you need to make sure her office knows the biopsy is coming for her, not pathology, and that it is mailed to her, not pathology. Don't let your vet forget a copy of her records including the report from UC Davis (they should send your vet a report from her visit). 

She usually takes a few weeks to get the sample, have whatever stains she needs done, and call you. With Jonathan it was fast because I just sent his slides (probably within a week of when they arrived). With Mikey, I sent unprocessed tissue from his liver plus intestinal and stomach samples and it took about 3 weeks since I went through her and not pathology (however, I only had to pay for the special stains).
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37125
[/B][/QUOTE]
I will have my Vet send the records from Davis as well as his and I will personally call and let her office know the biopsy is coming to Dr. Center and not pathology. Thanks again!~Jackie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Feb 22 2005, 10:18 PM
> *Thanks Kallie & Catcher's Mom.  I agree with you, I should have been given a consultation appointment to discuss the lab results.  They want me to bring Belle in to have her stitches removed by a tech without her Vet being there.  I guess, that is OK I'm just really getting annoyed over anything right now with my Vet.  I am so happy that JMM shared the resource with me again.  I am looking forward to another opinion now more than ever.
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I agree with your annoyance that your vet is not removing the stitches himself and checking things out. When Catcher was neutered, my vet had me leave the stitches in another few days so he could remove them himself, since he was going to be out of town the day the stitches were due out. He didn't even want one of the other vets to remove them. I guess some vets are more "anal" than others.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Feb 23 2005, 07:41 AM
> *I agree with your annoyance that your vet is not removing the stitches himself and checking things out. When Catcher was neutered, my vet had me leave the stitches in another few days so he could remove them himself, since he was going to be out of town the day the stitches were due out. He didn't even want one of the other vets to remove them. I guess some vets are more "anal" than others.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37150*


[/QUOTE]

In most placed suture removal is a technician appointment. We see lots and lots of incisions and if there is any question about it, a doctor will look at it. I guess it just depends on how comfortable you are with your vet's staff...I know not all are fantastic.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Feb 22 2005, 08:54 PM
> *Dr. Center is very experienced in looking at samples specifically from Maltese. Belle had scintigraphy to rule out a shunt if I remember correctly, so these findings most likely correspond with MVD. Maltese actually have another unique set of liver pathologies that includes eosinophilic inflammation in zone 3 (a portion of the triad of the portal veins) which Dr. Center has a treatment protocol for. She has not published on this yet.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37105*


[/QUOTE]
oops.. i forgot about belle had the scintigraphy done.. i just assumed no cause everyone was having feelings of a shunt. I thought that kinda rules that out or gives you an idea as to what is going on. 

umm... eosinophilic inflammation in zone 3.... i have never heard of that one... they did not mention that to me when kodie was at cornell. Are there symptoms of that? What if your dog has that and its never treated... because like i said before Kodie never had the biopsy done. They told me the only way they will do it is if he becomes sickly.

I'm not doctor.. but Belle reminds me of Kodie. His bile acid tests came out high but not too high... and sometimes they were even normal! Hes active and just like a normal pup... like Belle. I do agree that it sounds like MVD. 
Belle will be just fine


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM+Feb 23 2005, 08:29 AM-->
> 
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In most placed suture removal is a technician appointment. We see lots and lots of incisions and if there is any question about it, a doctor will look at it. I guess it just depends on how comfortable you are with your vet's staff...I know not all are fantastic.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37157
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Jackie, I don't think my vet's office has top-notch techs. I think they use "helpers" and the vets do most of the work that a trained professional tech could actually do.


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## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

I can't be much help here, either, because we (my vet, the radiology vet and me) decided against the biopsy because we had ruled out a shunt and (now I'm guessing because the two are indistinquishable in the biopsy) the treatment for the porto shunt and MVD are the same: Denosyl, low protein/low fat diet and regular check-ups.

I also get a copy of Pico's blood screens so I can compare from year to year and check things out online. It helps me understand and learn more about this, although not on the level of JMM!









Sure seems like MVD to me. I don't recall but do you have Belle on l/d? You can only get it at a vet's office. My vet also recommends Denosyl 90mg as he has seen definite results using it in his practice. I get the Denosyl from VetCentric online and it's cheaper than what my vet sells it for. Milk Thistle also works but I don't know what the dosage for a tiny dog is. 

Hope you get this cleared up soon. We're thinking of you and Belle!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This link to the canine epilepsy site has the dosage for milk thistle at the very bottom of the page:

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels...ilk_thistle.htm

Lady has been getting milk thistle for almost 5 years now, ever since she was started on phenobarbital for seizures. One of the side effects of Phenobarbital is liver damage, but so far, all Lady's liver function tests have been normal. I credit milk thistle for that.

I have also heard recently how wonderful Denosyl is, but since Lady has done so well with milk thistle, I decided not to "mess with success"!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kodie_@Feb 23 2005, 08:52 AM
> *oops.. i forgot about belle had the scintigraphy done.. i just assumed no cause everyone was having feelings of a shunt.  I thought that kinda rules that out or gives you an idea as to what is going on.
> 
> umm... eosinophilic inflammation in zone 3.... i have never heard of that one... they did not mention that to me when kodie was at cornell.  Are there symptoms of that?  What if your dog has that and its never treated... because like i said before Kodie never had the biopsy done.  They told me the only way they will do it is if he becomes sickly.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

The eosinophilic hepatic venule inflammation is apprantly something Dr. Center is seeing on the pathologies of Maltese with MVD. Jonathan doesn't have any symptoms so doesn't need any treatment at this time, but he has the inflammation. For Mikey, a low dosage of a steroid was recommended for the rest of his life for the liver inflammation since he does have problems...of course, his other conditions complicate things so he is no longer on Dr. Center's regular protocol (but has always remained on either a steroid or other immunosuppressive drug - azathioprine right now).


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## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

First off, you have had great advice from others here that truly know what they are talking about. I have just 2 things to add....

1.) YOU are the MOMMA, YOU have a right to be treated with respect and dignity and receive the answers that YOU have paid for. Please do NOT be a people pleaser, believe me, I was in the medical field for years and SHE WHO HOLLARS THE LOUDEST GETS ANSWERED FIRST. You also have the right to seek out as many "second, third," opinions that you need to feel confident and comfortable. In the medical profession, and I don't care if it's the 2 or 4 legged variety, you need to speak up for yourself and demand, if necessary, the answers to questions you have. It truly burns me up that the medical profession often comes off as they are "doing you a favor" treating you (or your furbaby). I really get hot over this issue.

2.) YOU are both in our prayers, I pray you get the answers you need to properly care for your baby and the outcome is good.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sisses Momma_@Feb 23 2005, 01:05 PM
> *First off, you have had great advice from others here that truly know what they are talking about.  I have just 2 things to add....
> 
> 1.) YOU are the MOMMA, YOU have a right to be treated with respect and dignity and receive the answers that YOU have paid for.  Please do NOT be a people pleaser, believe me, I was in the medical field for years and SHE WHO HOLLARS THE LOUDEST GETS ANSWERED FIRST.  You also have the right to seek out as many "second, third," opinions that you need to feel confident and comfortable.  In the medical profession, and I don't care if it's the 2 or 4 legged variety, you need to speak up for yourself and demand, if necessary, the answers to questions you have.  It truly burns me up that the medical profession often comes off as they are "doing you a favor" treating you (or your furbaby).  I really get hot over this issue.*


I agree 200% with you! I went through that with kodie... i went to 4 different hospitals with him about his liver. I refused to hear... "i dunno whats wrong with him... we have to cut him open and do exploratory surgery". I went on mothers instincts and found the best possible doctors ... and found out what was wrong with my baby (WITHOUT jumping right into surgery). 

I was pushed around... and didnt get any answers from some of these hospitals... so i kept moving to the next. I spent a lot of money but honestly if only i knew where to take him from the start things would have been a lot easier... but i do not regret it. I didnt have to put him through the surgery (Kodie was only about 2.8lbs when this was going on so they told me it would be a major surgery for him). The only problem now is my local vet is rubbin me the wrong way ... i dont think they have any idea what they are doing. Its a real prob, tryin to find a great vet for my baby.







I'm always a worried mom. 

Belle's mom... remember this statement sisses momma wrote. Remember to educate yourself alittle before your appointment... it really helps so you can ask the right questions. Keep us updated! If Dr. Center is going to be involved.. your in good hands.


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kodie+Feb 23 2005, 11:24 AM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]
Sissies Momma and Kodie's Mom: Thanks, you are so right. I paid what is a hefty fee to this Vet $582.13 with a $100 credit for encouraging spaying. So without that credit I would have paid $682 plus the $500 plus we paid Davis. Without clients like myself this Vet might not be taking nice vacations. I will be more assertive and keep you posted.~Jackie & Belle


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Belle had her stitches removed today. They took her in the back while I waited in the reception room for her. At first I thought, hey wait a minute but then I was really glad that I wouldn't have to watch it. They were starting to look kind of tight and bugging her and I didn't want to see her wince when they took them out. They took all of them out but the ones up by the liver biopsy looked a little inflamed and the vet who isn't on vacation said it is most like an allergic reaction to the type of stitches they had to use there. My husband and I feel so negligent. We kept watching her stitches but didn't notice the ones up high by the liver being a little red and a very small swelling. They looked so completely different than the stitches where she was spayed, more scabby and darker that we didn't notice. I'm sure she will be fine but we need to watch and make sure there is no change in the slight swelling and no draining. I am so looking forward to this little girl being healed. Mainly for her comfort but she sure could use a good bath too. I keep her face and privates washed but I know she would feel better if she was able to be bathed and groomed. YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE, the breeder that I purchased her from emailed me and said she had a litter due any day from the same parents and I would be allowed to purchase the pick of the litter if I was interested. I called today to verify that this was a purchase and not a replacement due to Belle's having the liver shunt problem. It was like I had never told her about Belle's liver problem. OK, start beating me over the head, I fell for the Christian Breeder, she talked the talk, etc. but I'm thinking puppy mill; Belle is only 6 months old. What in the world are they doing breeding the mother already again and hello I had told them that UC Davis said to not repeat the breeding as it is a genetic/congenital condition. Obviously if the puppies are due any day now they had already bred before I told them what U.C. Davis said about a repeat breeding. Now I am thinking I will not be compensated for all of Belle's expenses or given another puppy but worse yet I am worried about these new puppies. What kind of homes are they going to and will they do a blood test to make sure there isn't a liver shunt problem or will they just blindly go ahead and buy and breed these puppies. What a cruel world we live in. These poor dogs have no say.
BTW the breeder is in Nebraska just in case anyone is curious or thinking of buying from a "Christian Breeder with a health guarantee that lives in Nebraska close to Lincoln and Omaha. Thanks for listening once again. ~ Jackie


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Feb 25 2005, 01:12 AM
> *BTW the breeder is in Nebraska just in case anyone is curious or thinking of buying from a "Christian Breeder with a health guarantee that lives in Nebraska close to Lincoln and Omaha.  Thanks for listening once again. ~ Jackie
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37631*


[/QUOTE]








Poor momma pup!!! Poor babies...it would be interesting to see if you could get hold of any of her past puppy owners and see how often this has happened..ya know?
Anyway, what would be the harm in posting her name? We can do that here, right?! Just to make people aware...maybe it will send off some bells and whistles to someone if they DO hear or see her name somewhere. (She doesn't post/lurk on here does she?







)


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

My guess... and I don't mind saying it.... Sonshine Acres?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

The sad thing is that many of these new puppies may not be as lucky as Belle is to have found people who are willing to love and care for her despite her liver disease. I fear the majority of people would simply have the puppy put to sleep and get another one from this so-called breeder. 

And you're right. It sounds like Belle's poor momma is being bred every heat cycle.

I doubt it would do any good for your vet to call and tell her not to breed a dog with liver disease. These millers don't care. It's all about the money.

So glad that Belle found you and your husband!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm sorry you are having problems with the breeder. It really sucks when all you want is money and they don't want to shell out a sent even though you've probably paid her purchase price in vet bills already. I feel your frustration.


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## littlepeanut (Dec 5, 2004)

Belle is so lucky to be loved and cared for by you!!! Belle will be fine!!!! It's terrible to hear about the new litter of pups so soon. I don't understand how people can risk these little pups to make some money. Big hugs for you and Belle


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Feb 25 2005, 08:41 AM
> *The sad thing is that many of these new puppies may not be as lucky as Belle is to have found people who are willing to love and care for her despite her liver disease. I fear the majority of people would simply have the puppy put to sleep and get another one from this so-called breeder.
> 
> And you're right. It sounds like Belle's poor momma is being bred every heat cycle.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Marj, am I dreaming or isn't there something in the animal protection law about a limit to the number of times a bitch can be bred?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Sonshine Acres/Kenneth Miller is licensed by the USDA (but spelled "Sunshine") so there is no doubt it is a puppy mill despite what they claim on their website. They are incorporated in Nebraska for the stated purpose of "canine breeding". Kenneth Miller has a UCC filing for business equipment, machinery, fixtures, vehicles, etc. -farm equipment for their breeding operation? I don't believe for a minute that these puppies are home raised.

Anyway, to answer Sher's question, the Animal Welfare Act currently doesn't limit the number of litters a bitch can have. The proposed Puppy Protection Act would amend the AWA and would limit the # of litters to 3 in a 24 month period and require that a bitch be at least 1 year old before being bred. There is also a 3 strikes and you're out clause for violators. 

The bill has been supported by the Humane Society. I believe the original bill did not pass, but is being reintroduced this year. It has very organized opposition in the state of Missouri, the heart of puppy mill country, which is not surprising, but it is also being opposed by the AKC!


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Feb 25 2005, 05:15 AM
> *My guess... and I don't mind saying it.... Sonshine Acres?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37636*


[/QUOTE]
BINGO! My husband does not wish me using any names as we are not done trying to reason with the breeder of Belle. Has anyone else had any problems with this particular breeder or purchased from there? I would be curious to know.
Thanks!~ Jackie & Belle


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Jackie, I checked and there are no complaints filed with either the Better Business Bureau or the Nebraska Attorney General's Office against Sonshine Acres. Of course, that doesn't mean people haven't had problems with them. I suspect they have been able to resolve them all so far by exchanging a new puppy for a sick one. If the the Millers (appropriate name, huh?) are breeding all their bitches every heat cycle, there are plenty of replacements available. They probably consider the "loss" as part of the cost of doing business.

Such an awful situation for you and your husband to have to deal with.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle+Feb 25 2005, 11:23 AM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BINGO! My husband does not wish me using any names as we are not done trying to reason with the breeder of Belle. Has anyone else had any problems with this particular breeder or purchased from there? I would be curious to know.
Thanks!~ Jackie & Belle
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37698
[/B][/QUOTE]
Jackie, there is one member that I am aware who did buy from them.... I PM'd you the info....


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Feb 25 2005, 10:53 AM
> *Jackie, I checked and there are no complaints filed with either the Better Business Bureau or the Nebraska Attorney General's Office against Sonshine Acres. Of course, that doesn't mean people haven't had problems with them. I suspect they have been able to resolve them all so far by exchanging a new puppy for a sick one. If the the Millers (appropriate name, huh?) are breeding all their bitches every heat cycle, there are plenty of replacements available. They probably consider the "loss" as part of the cost of doing business.
> 
> Such an awful situation for you and your husband to have to deal with.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37725*


[/QUOTE]
I checked with the BBB and found that there has been one customer complaint on this company since the Bureau file opened in November 2002. I remember doing a search a few months back and there was a report (probably same complaint) and it showed that it had been resolved. This time there is nothing saying that the complaint was resolved. I am wondering if I should file a complaint with the BBB, I don't know as it would do me any good but it may slow down their business. I never thought of it but the name "Miller" is very appropriate. I believe the problem is mostly with the husband as his wife is the one that showed concern initially and said I could keep Belle and she would give me another puppy. That was in the middle of the day and by the next time I spoke with her that had all changed. Another puppy would just be another risk and would show the BBB that they had resolved the complaint I would suppose. This whole thing stinks! Using the "Christian Logo" to further themselves. I even received a tract in the literature I received with Belle from their church. No wonder Christian Believers get a bad rap with people like this. Good news is Belle will be receiving the best of care. Thanks for listening. ~ Jackie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Feb 25 2005, 01:35 PM
> *I checked with the BBB and found that there has been one customer complaint on this company since the Bureau file opened in November 2002.  I remember doing a search a few months back and there was a report (probably same complaint) and it showed that it had been resolved.  This time there is nothing saying that the complaint was resolved.  I am wondering if I should file a complaint with the BBB, I don't know as it would do me any good but it may slow down their business.  I never thought of it but the name "Miller" is very appropriate.  I believe the problem is mostly with the husband as his wife is the one that showed concern initially and said I could keep Belle and she would give me another puppy. That was in the middle of the day and by the next time I spoke with her that had all changed.  Another puppy would just be another risk and would show the BBB that they had resolved the complaint I would suppose.  This whole thing stinks!  Using the "Christian Logo" to further themselves.  I even received a tract in the literature I received with Belle from their church.  No wonder Christian Believers get a bad rap with people like this.  Good news is Belle will be receiving the best of care.  Thanks for listening. ~ Jackie
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37736*


[/QUOTE]

I took a look at their guarantee and it is rather useless since it promises a "replacement" puppy......who could give up a puppy..... 

I guess you know this by heart now:
_"Do you have a health guarantee?
Yes. If by one year of age, your puppy develops a congenital problem that will end or shorten its life, we will replace it with a similar puppy."_

Also, notice they call the puppy an "it".... like they would a chair or car or something else not living.

It can't hurt to file a BBB complaint. The BBB will then send a copy of the complaint to the Millers and they can answer it. They can always say that their policy states they will replace the puppy but that you refused a replacement. So, actually it might be a waste of time... It doesn't seem right that you can't warn others..... Grrrr, this makes me so mad.... those darn puppymills....


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

This stuff makes me so sad. I hate to sound fanatical but I make sure to mention it to ANYONE who gives me the opportunity, about pet stores. This case however, would have been so hard to figure out. The woman being so nice to Jackie and all, how can you tell







Poor little Belle









The other day I noticed a store being picketed about them killing trees and so wished that a group like that would get together and sit outside of my local petland. 

Best wishes to your little Belle.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

I totally feel your fustration. The lady that owns kodie's mom... bred her again.. but with a different father... they still havent tested the mother for any liver abnormallies... so why keep breeding her! She has only had I think 2 litters including kodie... but still.. the point is.. if she has the problem... she will carry it down to her pups. They really need to blood test these dogs! They only go by outer looks and behavior. I am just like you... i dont know if anyone else around here would take care of kodie the way i have and will continue to... our pups are special! (all of them are but you know what i mean)

Hearing things like this... makes me wanna be a breeder... i would do all of my homework and do everything the right way! But... i could never to that because i fall in love with all dogs... i could never sell or give away my babies.. so i would have a house FULLLLLLL







of maltese running around... haha









Glad to hear Belle is doing good though... kodie also had some healing issues with his sutures... keep a close eye on it.. and if it gets infected Belle will need medicine.


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## ilove_d&m (Apr 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Feb 25 2005, 01:43 PM
> *It can't hurt to file a BBB complaint. The BBB will then send a copy of the complaint to the Millers and they can answer it. They can always say that their policy states they will replace the puppy but that you refused a replacement. So, actually it might be a waste of time... It doesn't seem right that you can't warn others..... Grrrr, this makes me so mad.... those darn puppymills....
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37738*


[/QUOTE]

If a complaint is file, it will be a good idea to say that the Vets recommended to sotp breeding the bitch due to the fact that this health problem is being pass on to the pups by the monther. or something like that... so it is stated in the report that she has a bitch with a health problem (liver shunt). but I guess she can esally say she stop breeding that dog


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## littlepeanut (Dec 5, 2004)

Gosh, I hate that you are going through this. I hope everything works out for those pups and your Belle


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I didn't find that other complaint when I searched.....

If I were in your position, I would definately file a complaint with the BBB. It probably won't get you a refund since the guarentee clearly states that a sick puppy will be replaced and they offered you a new puppy, but it might serve as a warning to potential buyers. Obviously they plan to continue to breed these dogs so you may be sparing someone the heartbreak you are going through.

You can also file a complaint with the Consumer Protection section of the Nebraska Attorney General's Office, too. 

I wish we could still pull up annual reports on these mills online. You used to be able to, but when I tried recently there was a message saying that the function was no longer available due to pending litigation. I'd love to find out how large an operation it is and if there are any reported violations. This link says they have 20 litters a year. It also says that they have 12 years experience, but they only incorporated 7 years ago.

http://www.animalfrequency.org/breeder/409

BTW, that link also has their vet's name. Do you have any interest in calling him?

Sweat, Donald DVM - Syracuse Veterinary Service
(402) 269-2306 

Address:

282 N 30th Rd
Syracuse, NE 68446

Cross Street:
Near County Road H

I got that when I did a Yahoo search for vets near Elmwood, Nebraska.


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Thank you Lady's Mom for all your helpful information. The first time I went to the BBB to look them up when it said the one complaint had been resolved, it also said they used artificial insemination. It doesn't say that any longer. I wish I had printed out the first one. This was all after I had sent the money off. Are there any thoughts on artificial insemination being used in breeding? I thought it rather strange. BOY, am I getting an education through all this. I certainly didn't do enough homework before I got my Maltese; but then I wouldn't haven't gotten Belle. She is such a sweetheart and worth all the aggravation but I certainly don't want to see anyone else go thru this aggravation. I believe I am going to contact the BBB because I clearly told them that UC Davis said they should not repeat this breeding. Now they need to let potential buyers know of the possibility of a potential liver shunt problem as I have made them aware of it. I can't wait to hear from my Vet or the UC Davis Vet as to what exactly the diagnosis is and the prognosis also. I think I know it is MVD but want to hear them confirm this.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

AI is very commonly used in breeding. If the stud is far away, now days you don't have to ship the bitch, but can ship fresh chilled semen and do an AI instead.


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## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

I guess you know this by heart now:
"Do you have a health guarantee?
Yes. If by one year of age, your puppy develops a congenital problem that will end or shorten its life, we will replace it with a similar puppy."


If this case ever ended up in court, the person with the sick puppy would lose....it's all in the way the contract is worded "we will replace it with a similar puppy" could well be ANOTHER pup from the same litter with the SAME problems. They will of, at that time, fufilled their part of the contract. You would end up with yet another whole new set of health problems. So, I imagine someone in this situation would not "trade" what is "known" for something they have no idea what will happen with it. Could be why there are not more complaints lodged against people like this......I am happy to hear Belle is improving!! Hugs to her from me and lots of tail wags from Sisse!!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Feb 25 2005, 03:30 PM
> *AI is very commonly used in breeding. If the stud is far away, now days you don't have to ship the bitch, but can ship fresh chilled semen and do an AI instead.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37780*


[/QUOTE]

I have also heard that some breeders prefer artificial insemination because it cuts the risk of sexually transmitted diseases and the need to test before every mating. Is that true?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Feb 25 2005, 03:54 PM
> *I have also heard that some breeders prefer artificial insemination because it cuts the risk of sexually transmitted diseases and the need to test before every mating. Is that true?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37785*


[/QUOTE]

Think of it as protecting the dog rather than the bitch. Basically, if the dog is always collected for AI and never bred naturally, he cannot contract Brucellosis. 

Personally, I would only AI and ship semen simply because I don't want strange dogs in my house with Mikey here.


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## Tavish (Feb 5, 2005)

Well, first I would like to say I am so sorry that you have to be dealing with this situation at all. I hope Belle is feeling better after her surgery. I'm sure you have talked about this in other threads, but I would like to get caught up on the whole story. Why did your vet think it was necessary to do a liver biopsy? Was Belle exhibiting signs that made you think she had liver problems? Were they physical, neurological, both? If the breeders really are running a puppymill, I find it reprehensible that they can treat their dogs this way and say it is all in the name of the Lord. Keep us posted!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tavish_@Feb 25 2005, 07:16 PM
> *Well, first I would like to say I am so sorry that you have to be dealing with this situation at all. I hope Belle is feeling better after her surgery. I'm sure you have talked about this in other threads, but I would like to get caught up on the whole story. Why did your vet think it was necessary to do a liver biopsy? Was Belle exhibiting signs that made you think she had liver problems? Were they physical, neurological, both? If the breeders really are running a puppymill, I find it reprehensible that they can treat their dogs this way and say it is all in the name of the Lord. Keep us posted!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=37867*


[/QUOTE]
Tavish, here is the thread you're looking for to get background on Belle's situation:
Liver Shunts - Belle has possible liver shunt problems


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Janet, I did some more searching on the Internet regarding Sonshine Acres and it appears that they used to breed Yorkies quite a few years ago.

Also, they sell their dogs to others for breeding purposes. I ran across a site of a couple with a kennel of some sort selling Maltese and they were bragging that the dam and sire came from Sonshine Acres. So any defects could be passed on to other generations, too! Here are a couple links per above. Nothing earth shattering but maybe one will lead to something that can help you connect with other Sonshine customers, help you get more info on Sonshine, and the like:

http://www.ecynthia.com/pup2.html

http://www.adognet.com/files/breeds/yorky.htm

http://members.aol.com/bobotee/buttons.html


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## Tavish (Feb 5, 2005)

Thanks Kallie and Catcher's mom for the link to the other thread! I really appreciate it.


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Belle's Vet called today while I was out and left a message. "Biopsy showed typical Microvascular types of shunts, there is no real danger with this, we just need to be aware of and work with." I called and made an appointment to meet with the Dr. tomorrow at 12:20 and go over the findings and I will also ask that the slides or samples be sent to Dr. Center. I didn't want to talk on the phone, I want to be relaxed and be able to ask questions and be sure I am satisfied. I must have played that message at least 4 times to be sure I got everything right. He did definitely say "types of shunts". I was expecting the word shunts if it is MVD but I want to know why types. That would indicate to me that there is more than one type. I am glad you have encouraged me to get the second opinion from Dr. Center. Belle did have one night last week where she woke up and was crying, whining and barking. We couldn't figure out what was up with her, she always sleeps thru the night. We took her to her exercise pen to see if she had to go potty and she just kept running in circles. She did go potty but kept up the racket. She hasn't done this since and it probably was not related to the shunt problem but we were really concerned and if she had done it again she would have gone to the Vet. We are probably being neurotic watching her, all the more reason I am anxious for the second opinion. I'll be back with more tomorrow afternoon. My husband won't be able to go with me, he has a rehab class to improve his breathing (due to asbestosis) that he has to go to so I intend to have a list of all my questions and paper and pencil to take notes. Til tomorrow ~ Jackie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Thanks so much for the update. I've been thinking about you and Belle. It sounds encouraging to me..... at least he didn't say she needed surgery right away or that she was in bad shape, etc. I'm feeling better about it... hope you are!


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Jackie, I too have been watching for an update. I think you are smart to go in and have a face to face. I'll be waiting to hear the outcome of that meeting. Good luck!


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## littlepeanut (Dec 5, 2004)

Good idea to make an appointment instead of discussing over the phone. I wish you and Belle the best tomorrow!!!! Keep us updated.


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Feb 25 2005, 07:24 PM
> *Janet, I did some more searching on the Internet regarding Sonshine Acres and it appears that they used to breed Yorkies quite a few years ago.
> 
> Also, they sell their dogs to others for breeding purposes. I ran across a site of a couple with a kennel of some sort selling Maltese and they were bragging that the dam and sire came from Sonshine Acres. So any defects could be passed on to other generations, too! Here are a couple links per above. Nothing earth shattering but maybe one will lead to something that can help you connect with other Sonshine customers, help you get more info on Sonshine, and the like:
> ...


[/QUOTE]
I do have the name of a breeder who bought Belle's sister. I emailed her when I first got Belle just to compare. I am fairly certain she bought Belle's sister to add to her breeding line. She is a really sweet lady. I will be emailing or calling her tommorow after I speak with the Vet. I feel so sad at having to pass on this bad news. I can't help but wonder if she will keep her pup and not use her for breeding. I have this feeling that breeders tend to not keep pups if they are not going to work out for breeding. I would love to have Belle's sister because Belle is so sweet but #1 my husband would say NO and #2 I would be asking for more problems unless she tested out as not having MVD. Of course, she should definitely be spayed as if she doesn't have it she could probably be a carrier to pass it on in her litters. What a bummer for my first experience with a Maltese. I was so careful to be sure and not get one out of the paper for less money so I wouldn't be having this kind of an issue.







I need to refocus on how lucky I am to have Belle who is such a sweet girl and full of love.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle+Feb 28 2005, 07:20 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do have the name of a breeder who bought Belle's sister. I emailed her when I first got Belle just to compare. I am fairly certain she bought Belle's sister to add to her breeding line. She is a really sweet lady. I will be emailing or calling her tommorow after I speak with the Vet. I feel so sad at having to pass on this bad news. I can't help but wonder if she will keep her pup and not use her for breeding. I have this feeling that breeders tend to not keep pups if they are not going to work out for breeding. I would love to have Belle's sister because Belle is so sweet but #1 my husband would say NO and #2 I would be asking for more problems unless she tested out as not having MVD. Of course, she should definitely be spayed as if she doesn't have it she could probably be a carrier to pass it on in her litters. What a bummer for my first experience with a Maltese. I was so careful to be sure and not get one out of the paper for less money so I wouldn't be having this kind of an issue.







I need to refocus on how lucky I am to have Belle who is such a sweet girl and full of love.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=38679
[/B][/QUOTE]

Don't beat yourself over the head. Jackie (JMM) has posted on here that she bought her babies from a show breeder and I would think she would be safe from stuff like this but her babies have liver issues, as well. There are no guarantees really. And so many of us don't get to sites like this until after we have our babies, so we don't even know what to look for. I know that I did not know of these congenital diseases before I got either of mine. How are people supposed to know this stuff... wish someone would write a book or an e-book on the Maltese that is truly useful. I have a lot of Maltese books but don't ever recall reading about liver disease, luxating patellas, etc. 

I am so glad that you know who got Belle's sister. That's very good!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Jackie... just thought of something... IF you did want Belle's sister (if her health checks out OK) perhaps then the breeder who bought her would give her to you and she could get her "free replacement" from Sonshine....


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Feb 28 2005, 05:39 PM
> *Jackie... just thought of something... IF you did want Belle's sister (if her health checks out OK) perhaps then the breeder who bought her would give her to you and she could get her "free replacement" from Sonshine....
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
I like the way you think. That would be soooo awesome, all I would have to do is convince my husband to have 2 fur babies. He is so smitten with Belle that it is a possibility.







Belle and I would both be jumping for joy!


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Feb 28 2005, 07:37 PM
> *There are no guarantees really. And so many of us don't get to sites like this until after we have our babies, so we don't even know what to look for. I know that I did not know of these congenital diseases before I got either of mine. How are people supposed to know this stuff... wish someone would write a book or an e-book on the Maltese that is truly useful. I have a lot of Maltese books but don't ever recall reading about liver disease, luxating patellas, etc.*


This is true for me as well. I had no idea I should be so concerned about all these things before buying a maltese. I didnt know about liver problems until after I was told Kodie's liver counts were too high. Then I did research... -_-


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi! Belle does definitely have MVD. According to the lab that did the biopsy and spoke with my Vet 50% of the blood going through Belle's liver is being detoxified and 50% is not. Since she is currently not showing any clinical symptoms the Vet seems to think she will be just fine. I am sad







; I don't think that sounds really
good to me. She is very young yet. My Vet spoke so fast, I could have kicked myself for not having gone to Radio Shack and got a small recorder. Anyway I will be glad when I get word from Dr. Center. He said he had no problem with a second opinion (did not believe that it would differ other than possibly method of treatment with drugs which he doesn't believe is necessary right now) and he would see that it got sent to Dr. Center. I had address and info with me and highlighted. The Internal Med Vet from U. C. Davis called this afternoon. She said that she is in agreement that she definitely has MVD. She is soooo nice. She didn't have all the biopsy results from the lab; I faxed her what they faxed me but
today the Vet gave me a 4 page report rather than the 1 page report that his staff faxed me. Dr. Sykes at U. C. Davis said I could come and see her anytime without having a referral. Just call for an appointment. So, my visit didn't go as well as I had thought it would but I will get better and more information from both Dr. Center and Dr. Sykes I am sure. I'll keep posting as I find out more. Thanks to all of you for your prayers, encouragement and websites with info, etc. You are all great.







Belle & Jackie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Oh, Jackie, I know the heartache you must be going through....the shock of hearing something like this as a certainty surely is overwhelming. I don't mean to be a Pollyana but the diagnosis could have been much worse. Thank goodness at least 50% of her blood is getting cleansed. As you know there are others on this board who have babies with this same diagnosis so hopefully you all can help each other with food, meds, etc. My thoughts are with you and little Belle.


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Mar 1 2005, 06:43 PM
> *Oh, Jackie, I know the heartache you must be going through....the shock of hearing something like this as a certainty surely is overwhelming. I don't mean to be a Pollyana but the diagnosis could have been much worse. Thank goodness at least 50% of her blood is getting cleansed. As you know there are others on this board who have babies with this same diagnosis so hopefully you all can help each other with food, meds, etc.  My thoughts are with you and little Belle.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=39107*


[/QUOTE]
Thank you, and you are not being a Pollyana. Soon after I posted I realized that it could be so much worse and I am very fortunate. We found out early, so I can watch her diet, etc. Much better than being in the dark and a couple of years from now having symptoms crop up. We have always had dogs in the family, but this is my first dog that is mine, all mine. Her Dad loves her but she and I have a special bond and I love her so very much. She is just so different, than our other dogs. She is more like my baby. I just love cuddling with her, watching TV or laying together in bed and just smooching each other. There is just nothing like a Maltese in my opinion. I will keep up a positive attitude.


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## littlepeanut (Dec 5, 2004)

It's so hard to hear news like this about these little ones. I'm very sorry that you and Belle have to go through all of this, but I am glad that it was diagnosed so early. It's so easy to take health (ours and our babies) for granted, and like K/C's mom said, things could be worse. Keep us posted and we send big hugs and kisses to little belle!!!!!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle+Mar 1 2005, 09:20 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, and you are not being a Pollyana. Soon after I posted I realized that it could be so much worse and I am very fortunate. We found out early, so I can watch her diet, etc. Much better than being in the dark and a couple of years from now having symptoms crop up. We have always had dogs in the family, but this is my first dog that is mine, all mine. Her Dad loves her but she and I have a special bond and I love her so very much. She is just so different, than our other dogs. She is more like my baby. I just love cuddling with her, watching TV or laying together in bed and just smooching each other. There is just nothing like a Maltese in my opinion. I will keep up a positive attitude.








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=39117
[/B][/QUOTE]

Gosh, you're bringing tears to my eyes. I truly know how you feel. My first Maltese, Rosebud, was the same for me. I had never had a dog that was all mine. That was in 1990. Unfortunately, both her parents were pet shop dogs







and she was sick her whole life with one thing and another. She spent about two weeks at a teaching hospital after having a full body biopsy.. every single organ!!... and was accidentally burned very badly on the operating table!! Oh, what we went through. I loved her so much .. I felt that I maybe loved her too much, which is why I knew that I had to have two this time, so things would be a little less intense. 

Yes, this breed is just incredible and yes they are totally like babies.... Belle is so very lucky to have you for her mommy ...


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Mar 1 2005, 08:20 PM
> *Hi!  Belle does definitely have MVD.  According to the lab that did the biopsy and spoke with my Vet 50% of the blood going through Belle's liver is being detoxified and 50% is not.  Since she is currently not showing any clinical symptoms the Vet seems to think she will be just fine.  I am sad
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Kodie is still young (hes gonna be 2yrs this april)... but we should keep intouch since we are both going through the same thing.







It really helps to talk to someone with the same situation on their hands. If you have an email or anything PM me!


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kodie+Mar 1 2005, 08:24 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kodie is still young (hes gonna be 2yrs this april)... but we should keep intouch since we are both going through the same thing.







It really helps to talk to someone with the same situation on their hands. If you have an email or anything PM me!








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=39133
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks, I'll do that. I don't know why but I thought Kodie was older. I just love the pictures, especially the one with the hat. Belle has a brother that went to New Jersey, but I don't have a name, etc. Belle is getting groomed next Monday finally then I want some new pictures to post. I'll be in touch. ~ Jackie


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I just want you to know that my heart goes out to you and your puppy. Please give Belle extra hugs from Valletta.


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

me and park send hugs and kisses too!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Jackie, if there is any silver lining in this terrible dark cloud hanging over you and Belle, it is that you will probably love Belle more than any other dog you dog will ever have because of this disease, not in spite of it. 

It's hard to explain, but K&C's mom did a very good job of it describing her intense feelings for her Rosebud. I have had dogs all my life and loved them all deeply (I still cry for my Petie 10 years later), but never have I been so connected to one as I am to my Lady. Her many illnesses have created such an incredible bond between us. Never would I have thought that I would be giving insulin shots twice a day or drawing blood for glucose checks. I would walk through fire for this little girl.

People on the diabetic forum I post to all say the same thing, how the love and bond between them and their dog strengthens so much after they are diagnosed.

I am so sorry you have to go through this. All of us with Maltese suffering from genetic conditions have a responsibility to get the word out to as many people as we can not to buy from pet shops, puppy mills or backyard breeders. If we can spare just one person the heartbreak we are experiencing, then we have been successful.


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## sheila2182 (Nov 28, 2004)

Our thoughts and prayers are with you and Belle. Your SM family is here to help and listen.


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## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

Jackie,

While you are naturally heartbroken over Belle's health issue, let me remind you that Pico is 4 years old with MVD and it is not difficult to manage this disease. My vet has 3 Maltese and he told me yesterday that the one with MVD has already lived longer than any of the 7 or so Maltese he has owned over the years. She is 14 1/2 now.

Pico is on Denosyl, which is a supplement and not a drug, and with the l/d (both canned and kibble) and judicious oversight of snacks and treats, his blood profile continues to look good. His weight holds steady at between 4.3 and 4.5 lbs and you simply wouldn't know he had a liver disease by looking at him.

I ALWAYS remind his medical caretakers about his liver so there is no inadvertant mistake made in treating him. ie: blood work, anesthesia, etc. And if someone is babysitting for him, however briefly, I give them the approved treats personally so they can play with him and reward him appropriately. It just takes a little getting used to and a little thought and care, which you have in abundance.

Compared to what LadysMom deals with daily, this is a walk in the park!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Conservative treatment for MVD is usually diet. Many dogs live good long lives with proper management. 

I had no idea about the prevelance of liver problems in Maltese when I bought my dogs...NOBODY tests for it so how would anybody know if they are breeding it or not? What pisses me off is that I found out we can at least do some testing to make sure there is good liver function and people don't take advanatage of that or other testing available to the breed. Forget the liver stuff...my dog could have avoided knee surgery and 4 eye surgeries!


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Jackie, I have somehow missed this thread. I am sorry that you and Belle are having to deal with this. I'm so thankful that the disease that you are dealing with can be managed and that you have people who are actually able to give you positive information and encouragement. As always, the people here rally round when they are needed to provide a sounding board. We're here for you.

Edit: I should say that I had missed your most recent post after you spoke with the vets. Of course I have been following Belle's story, as you know.


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## Carol Ann (Dec 5, 2004)

Glad it wasn't as bad as it could have been. I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, but Belle is lucky she's got you! From what the more experienced folks are saying here, sounds like it should be quite manageable. Hang in there, you've got people thinking good thoughts about you and Belle.


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## Quincymom (Oct 17, 2004)

I don't know how I missed this whole thread until now, but I wanted to send my support and prayers to you and Belle, and I know if love alone will make her well, Belle will live to a ripe old age.
Quincymom


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## Quincymom (Oct 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Mar 5 2005, 06:25 PM
> *Conservative treatment for MVD is usually diet. Many dogs live good long lives with proper management.
> 
> I had no idea about the prevelance of liver problems in Maltese when I bought my dogs...NOBODY tests for it so how would anybody know if they are breeding it or not? What pisses me off is that I found out we can at least do some testing to make sure there is good liver function and people don't take advanatage of that or other testing available to the breed. Forget the liver stuff...my dog could have avoided knee surgery and 4 eye surgeries!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=40268*


[/QUOTE]
Jackie,
Did your breeder pull the affected dogs from her breeding program? I have seen some of your posts on other forums on doing testing prior to breeding, and I have gotten the feeling there is some resistance to the idea.
Quincymom


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Quincymom_@Mar 5 2005, 10:44 PM
> *Jackie,
> Did your breeder pull the affected dogs from her breeding program? I have seen some of your posts on other forums on doing testing prior to breeding, and I have gotten the feeling there is some resistance to the idea.
> Quincymom
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=40343*


[/QUOTE]


There does seem to be resistance. Bile acids aren't the end all and be all of testing, but its a start. 

To the best of my knowledge according to second hand sources, the same lines continue to be bred. Of course, I hope they are not and honestly could not say for sure. I certainly would stay away from this pedigree since it has produced MVD and shunts.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM+Mar 5 2005, 10:50 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There does seem to be resistance. Bile acids aren't the end all and be all of testing, but its a start. 

To the best of my knowledge according to second hand sources, the same lines continue to be bred. Of course, I hope they are not and honestly could not say for sure. I certainly would stay away from this pedigree since it has produced MVD and shunts.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=40346
[/B][/QUOTE]

Jackie, it just "kills" me to think that innocent people could be buying puppies that came from the same parents as your Mikey Man, which means the possibly of health issues. I went to the Linlee site and saw Mikey's photo up there on their "bragging" page. People should only know that the gorgeous Maltese in that photo has so many medical problems.


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by msmagnolia_@Mar 5 2005, 03:49 PM
> *Jackie, I have somehow missed this thread.  I am sorry that you and Belle are having to deal with this.  I'm so thankful that the disease that you are dealing with can be managed and that you have people who are actually able to give you positive information and encouragement.  As always, the people here rally round when they are needed to provide a sounding board.  We're here for you.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=40276*


[/QUOTE]
Thanks Susan! Yes, the people here are fabulous. I feel so fortunate to have found this family of Maltese Lovers. Belle & I are doing much better than when I
first posted the results of the biopsy. I love the new pictures of your babies. Belle is finally getting groomed Monday and I am trying to decide if I want the top knot or not. I think I'll try it. She doesn't like bows but she can learn to accept them. How do you do the fancy pictures that keep changing with the signature?? It's adorable. My sister's Bichon this past summer when I spent 3 weeks with her in Florida is what really made up my mind that now was the time for me to get my
Maltese Baby. They are all so cute!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle+Mar 5 2005, 11:15 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Susan! Yes, the people here are fabulous. I feel so fortunate to have found this family of Maltese Lovers. Belle & I are doing much better than when I
first posted the results of the biopsy. I love the new pictures of your babies. Belle is finally getting groomed Monday and I am trying to decide if I want the top knot or not. I think I'll try it. She doesn't like bows but she can learn to accept them. How do you do the fancy pictures that keep changing with the signature?? It's adorable. My sister's Bichon this past summer when I spent 3 weeks with her in Florida is what really made up my mind that now was the time for me to get my
Maltese Baby. They are all so cute!
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=40352
[/B][/QUOTE]

In case she doesn't see this, Lady Montava is really great about helping folks on SM with signature photos... Just PM her and I bet she'll help you!







She helped me get my avatar animated.

I'm so glad that you and Belle are doing well... that is great news! Did you have any more contact with the breeder who bought Belle's sister?


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

yeah i can make u one...just pm me..i have fun doing it! take the opportunity now while i have the free time hehehe


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Mar 5 2005, 11:09 PM
> *Jackie, it just "kills" me to think that innocent people could be buying puppies that came from the same parents as your Mikey Man, which means the possibly of health issues. I went to the Linlee site and saw Mikey's photo up there on their "bragging" page. People should only know that the gorgeous Maltese in that photo has so many medical problems.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=40350*


[/QUOTE]

Linlee are very nice people...I wish them only the best with their dogs...


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Thanks to everyone here on SM. I am doing much better than I was when I first spoke with the Vet and found out that 50% of the blood in Belle was not being detoxified through the liver. I know that she will do well. We are watching her and
keeping a diary on her and have every intention of seeing to it that she lives to her full potential for several years. The breeder has told me she promises to do right by me and feels so badly about Belle having to go through this. She wants me to have my vet send her all of Belle's records and was asking me how long the
Vet expected Belle to live. That really didn't go over very well! That's not the point! I paid for a guaranteed genetically healthy puppy and that's not what I got.
I am at the point that if she wants to make it right fine, if not fine. I have my little girl and I wouldn't trade her for anything. I just am hoping that she doesn't sell any other puppies with liver shunt problems to unsuspecting buyers. I told her that she needs to have all her puppies given blood tests for liver bile acids before she sells them and sends them to new homes. She agreed. We may never know if she does or not but at least she knows now. Thanks for your prayers, best wishes and support. BTW, promise not to think my husband and I are too crazy, but we are talking about changing Belle's name to Lightening. She is answering to both names but we are thinking she is more of a "lightening" than she is Belle.


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## littlepeanut (Dec 5, 2004)

I'm soooo glad that Belle has such good parents!!!!!


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## CandicePK (Nov 11, 2004)

I don't know how I missed this post either, but I'm sorry to hear about Belle's troubles. I'm thankful that it sounds like it can be managed. ((hugs))


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

Several years? Your talking as though your Belle isnt gonna live long at all...







Thats not true! Pico's mom could tell you... your Belle could live 15yrs (is that the age you said the one dog lived with MVD???)!

I am scared of kodie not living as long as I would like too.. but i'm tryin very hard to think positive.


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## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

Just back in town, so sorry to hear the news about Belle....we send our love and prayers for her. Know you are among friends and can vent here anytime.!!







hugs from Sisse and I.....


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Kodie' Mom. I think the way I wrote up my post you may have misunderstood. I
am expecting Belle to do fine and be with me for many, many years. What I was
saying is that the breeder inferred to me that the guarantee was only good if Belle was going to have a shortened life span. The guarantee states a genetically sound
puppy. The Vet's records that show Belle has a liver shunt are being faxed this
afternoon to the breeder. If she chooses to honor the guarantee fine, if not, I am
still the winner because I have Belle and she is a real sweetheart. She hasn't met anyone she doesn't love, be it the groomer or the Vet, even after the surgery she is still crazy about the entire staff at the hospital. Hope I clarified that I'm not looking at each day as though it may soon be her last, far from it. That would transfer over to her too. Nope she is going to go strong for a long, long time.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Mar 7 2005, 12:39 PM
> *Kodie' Mom.  I think the way I wrote up my post you may have misunderstood.  I
> am expecting Belle to do fine and be with me for many, many years.  What I was
> saying is that the breeder inferred to me that the guarantee was only good if Belle was going to have a shortened life span.  The guarantee states a genetically sound
> ...


[/QUOTE]

That's the attitude! My Lady is in her 10th year and no one expected her to last as long as she has! She looks and feels wonderful, her diabetes is regulated and we are down to seizures only twice a year (change of season or thunderstorms). 

I believe that the power of love is very strong. It will sustain your Belle a/k/a Lightening as it has sustained my Lady.

I celebrate each and every day I have with Lady as a special gift. As you say, if your breeder chooses to honor the guarantee, fine, if not, you're still the winner because you have Belle.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maltese Adora-Belle_@Mar 7 2005, 12:39 PM
> *Kodie' Mom.  I think the way I wrote up my post you may have misunderstood.  I
> am expecting Belle to do fine and be with me for many, many years.  What I was
> saying is that the breeder inferred to me that the guarantee was only good if Belle was going to have a shortened life span.  The guarantee states a genetically sound
> ...


[/QUOTE]
yeah i think i did... hahaha.. oops!








I love the postive attitude!


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