# angel-lite



## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

does anyone know about this breeder? does anyone have a pup from them?
http://www.angel-litemaltese.com/


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

I've seen their site before. They have very cute dogs and puppies


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Don't know them, but those puppies on the "Available" site sure are cute!


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

OMG! Sorry I can't help, but those are some ADORABLE faces!


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

i KNOW! they have the face i want! and the price is about right  now i just need hubby's approval hahah


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## NewMom328 (Apr 15, 2005)

I'm not married so I dont really have experience with this butttt- i think you should just sneak attack him. Just get the puppy...you know he wont be able to resist that cute little face and puppy antics once he sees it!! We did this with my parents all the time and they would get upset for like an hour and then fall in love with the animals...cats, dogs...anything!


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> I'm not married so I dont really have experience with this butttt- i think you should just sneak attack him. Just get the puppy...you know he wont be able to resist that cute little face and puppy antics once he sees it!! We did this with my parents all the time and they would get upset for like an hour and then fall in love with the animals...cats, dogs...anything![/B]



This has worked for me in the past when I have tried it too.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

I am soo jealous!! I want a puppy. Actually, I can definitely talk my hubby into it but I am worried that it will be hard enough to find an apartment in San Francisco that allows pets with just one dog, so they probably wouldn't want us with 2 dogs!! I don't know...its very tempting and between my parents and my hubby, I ca get just about what I want for my graduation in May. I definitely have the time now to train a puppy, but what my hubby and I really want is a skin baby but next year is not the time to have an infant since it will be my first year of residency, so maybe I shoudl get a puppy now to stop the urge??????? I don't know!!!!!

Good luck with finding a puppy!! Sounds like so much fun.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I like the one in the red hat


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## Joann (Apr 1, 2005)

I didn't see any prices on her site. Would you share the price range with us?


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

males start at 1000 females start at 1200

soooo my mom asked hubby....he said no.....he didnt tell her why...and he didnt know she told me....
so we were driving home..i was upset and he could tell....and hes always good at getting the info out of me...so i finally told him why i was upset and he was kinda upset my mom told me, then i told him how her and I had been talkin about it etc...he said oh....then tells me the reason he told her no was b/c he was actually toying with the idea himself, but hadn't decided for sure yet. i told him he should have told my mom this...n e ways to make a long story short..things are lookin good after all that drama so we will see  Plus hubby didnt realize the price of these little ones, so i told him, he and my mom should go in on it together.


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

OOOh, those are precious little faces. Good luck with convincing the hubby


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

Good luck! Sounds positive now anyway!








Her prices, although still out of my price range, are more reasonable than some.
Will keep my fingers crossed that all works out in your favor!


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

That sounds REALLY positive. Good for you!


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

Good luck!!! Those pups are soo adorable and i think the price is good too. Please keep us updated


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## Joann (Apr 1, 2005)

The furbabies are very reasonable. Check out the link below. It's the birthplace of Drill Sergeant, but I sure didn't pay that much a year ago! Even though DS is priceless to us, I could not have afforded him at these prices.







It's kinda scary to see these prices going up as quick as gas!Harpaw


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> The furbabies are very reasonable. Check out the link below. It's the birthplace of Drill Sergeant, but I sure didn't pay that much a year ago! Even though DS is priceless to us, I could not have afforded him at these prices.
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There is a thread about Harpaw from a while back. She no longer is touting "tinies" but still lets them go as young as 8 weeks and still is breeding as low as 3 pounds. 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...hl=Harpaw&st=40


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## Joann (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't see anything on her site now about less than 12 weeks or "tinies" either. As much as I would love to have a housefull of furbabies, Drill Sergeant is more than enough! I guess I'm questioning the huge hike in pricing more than the size, age or quality. Angel-lite seems to be more in line with the norm, and her pups sure are cute


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I don't see anything on her site now about less than 12 weeks or "tinies" either. As much as I would love to have a housefull of furbabies, Drill Sergeant is more than enough! I guess I'm questioning the huge hike in pricing more than the size, age or quality. Angel-lite seems to be more in line with the norm, and her pups sure are cute
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Yep, Harpaw is still letting some go as early as 8 weeks but the only mention of size is the "Your puppy should mature between 3-7 lbs.": 

Our Puppies come with a written health guarantee and are usually 8-12 weeks old before they leave us depending on their development. They must be thoroughly weaned from mom and able to eat dry food with ease.  http://www.harpaw.com/About_Us.html (Bottom of page - text in box with photos)


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## Joann (Apr 1, 2005)

I guess I missed the intent of this discussion. I thought it was about pricing and breeders. I STILL find angel-lite prices as far more reasonable and her pups are very cute in the photos.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> I guess I missed the intent of this discussion. I thought it was about pricing and breeders. I STILL find angel-lite prices as far more reasonable and her pups are very cute in the photos.[/B]


I feel that it is always more than just price and looks although for most people .. those are the two deciding factors. I am guilty of that too







However, I care a lot about pedigrees. To me, they are an indication of the quality of the puppy. All puppies are cute so we have to look at more.


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## Joann (Apr 1, 2005)

We spent several months searching for the perfect pup. There are so few breeders in our area of GA/SC that online research took priority. Angel-lite is proud of their lineage and posts the geneology on their site. The better breeders are more likely to do that. Many e-mails, phone calls and contacts were made concerning pedigree during our search and we did settle on the Marcris Risque' line. I'm sure if I had seen Angel-lite, we would have seriously considered their line as well and yes, price was an issue. I'm sure many of us are interested in hearing from any Angel-lite off-spring owners as well as recommendations for other breeders with quality programs.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Jaimie, glad to hear that David might come around on this issue







especially after all the baby pictures we have looked at







I took a look at the pedigrees. If they are using the dogs of the pedigrees that they are showing then they have good breeding stock. Some of the same as Sassy, ie Weslyn, Marcris, Wind Song.Those prices seem awful cheap for such quality. Just make sure they are not using two different sets of dogs (one to show on the net and one to sell.) Hope that makes sense. There is someone on this forum that lives in that area I think. Do a member search and see if you can figure it out and ask them some questions. Maybe you could get someone to drop by and take a look/see.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

First, let me say that I know nothing about the breeder, Angel-Lite, and the comments I am going to make are not directed at them, or any other kennel.

I would want to see the pedigree of both the male and the female. As I posted earlier today, it is common for some breeders to go after a good pedigree for advertisement, but they do not know much more than there are champions in it. Also, I would be concerned as to whether this dog was purchased and shown by the breeder, or purchased after it completed championship. If the dog is that good, then the original breeder will not be as eager to part with it. Sure there are cases where they get more than they need, and they are willing to pass them on to a reputable breeder, but there are others that are sold because they do not produce the quality pups they want in their own kennel. These dogs are sold for the pedigree/completed championship, and they are out there producing pups with bad toplines and cotton coat, among other faults. Another factor to consider would be whether the breeder who is posting only the pedigree of males can show that they have quality females for breeding. We would loose consistency if that breeder took the championed male and bred it to dogs who looked like Bichons, were twelve pounds, or otherwise didn't have good conformation. Here is something else to consider--I know of a good looking dog being shown now (not a Maltese) that has bad patella problems. I doubt the breeder will be using it much, and there is a good chance it will be sold to another breeder after it completes it's championship who just wants a pedigree. Want that in your dog?


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## faun (Jun 12, 2005)

I am sooooooo jelous. My darling hubby has taken Chance over. Now he is Daddy's baby and I have the dirty work.....grooming. There is a vet's wife about an hour away from here that breeds some good looking pups. Hubby doesn't know that I have my name on her waiting list for a 4 to 5 lb. female. Chance goes for His little peanut removal in January so a female should be no problem. Wish me luck. I don't look for her to have any puppies till spring.
Congratulations Jamie. Parker will love a playmate.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

> First, let me say that I know nothing about the breeder, Angel-Lite, and the comments I am going to make are not directed at them, or any other kennel.
> 
> Another factor to consider would be whether the breeder who is posting only the pedigree of males can show that they have quality females for breeding.[/B]


You are correct, but from what I have seen on most of the websites that advertise online it seems common for the breeders to take a championed male and breed him to a female that has not been completed. If the female is good quality (eventhough she was not shown or completed) then the pups should (key word should) be good pet quality. Of course, if they are using bad quality stock for females then that would not be true. This is what I was trying to say when I mentioned whether or not the kennel has different sets of breeding sires and dams. Sometimes the quality you see in the photos are not the same quality as they sell to the unsuspecitng public.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=134013
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You are right that many good dogs are produced from dogs who did not have both parents as a champion. I think the key here is to make sure they are using quality female to do this. I'll give you a personal example--one of my males I bought and had shown to championship came from dam who has nothing of interest in her pedigree, yet she has been bred to three different champion males, and has consistently produced offspring who went on to complete their championship (my boy being one of several). 
Unfortunately, there are a number of breeders who just go out and buy a male with a pedigree and breed it to whatever walks on four legs. I know of two champions sold in the last few months who are in situations you would not want to purchase a pup from. 
Another factor is whether that male is producing quality pups, regardless of whether he is a champion. As I said in my post, some of these dogs are just culls from others breeding program, as they didn't produce quality.


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

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please allow me to ask a completely naive question. i've often wondered how, just as you've mentioned, a male with an impressive pedigree ends up breeding with a female that is of a MUCH LESS impressive pedigree? how would a male with a whole lotta Marcris (for example) and a very impressive mommy and daddy can end up with a female of virtually puppymill pedigree? what broke down for that to happen? i look at buttercup's lines and see a very impressive daddy, but a clear puppymill mommy. 

i'm sorry if this is a stupid question or it's been discussed, but i get confused and forgetful in my old age LOL.

ann marie and the "but YOU'RE my mommy now, and i wub you bestest!" buttercup


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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That is what I've been trying to point out. There are several reasons this could happen:

1. That female who was bred to the dog with the impressive pedigree could actually be a good dog who was known to produce quality dogs. Maybe she was a "sleeper"--a dog who came through the ranks from lines that were never shown. I know of one such dog who has almost 100% of her offsprings as champions, yet her pedigree isn't impressive.

2. The dog with the impressive pedigree was sold to someone on a show contract, and they didn't honor it. 
And, the breeder didn't enforce the terms.

3. The breeder didn't like the dog and sold it to someone who was only interested in pedigree for advertising, so they just bred it to whatever walked with four legs. Or, the breeder was more interested in how much money they could obtain as opposed to where their dogs went. 


Last night, I spent at least 15 minutes on the phone with someone who was only interested in full registration. They never asked about size, coat texture, structure, or anything related to breeding a good dog. Their bottom line was price and pedigree. They will not be getting a maltese from me. There are a number of people out there like this. If you get a breeder who is "hungry enough" they will sell dogs with these pedigrees. So, people just keep going until they find that breeder. Just in the last two months, I've heard of two champions being sold into questionable situations.


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

Thank you, HappyB. I now kind of see how this can happen. Discouraging, it must be, for the breeder who tries to produce better and better lines only to find one of their own in someone else's breeding program... especially when that other person's program is less selective and less "about the dogs" and more "about the money this champion dog can make!"... 
I had been wondering how a dog with such great lines could end up like that. When a breeder has ensured this dog has been shown and earned championship after championship, and exemplifies what a maltese should be....then ends up breeding with a mill dog? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of what the original breeder had worked so hard for? Oye. This is getting too complicated for me.

Thank you again, HappyB for answering my question and making it a little clearer for me!









back to the christmas cookies i go,
ann marie and the "cookies? what cookies? there are no cookies. especially not behind the sofa!" buttercup


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## JustMe (May 5, 2004)

LadyMontavia,

To answer your questions, yes we know this breeder and have purchased a puppy from her. Sadly I cannot recommend that you do business with her based on experience.

About four years ago we decided that we wanted to get a male with a good pedigree to start a breeding program with our female who we thought was pretty good (She is a Hollybelle but apparently from the "good" side of that operation. This was before Jenny got busted and the whole story came out.). My sister knew Terrie Canada and had purchased her first female from her with good results. She called Terrie and told her what we were looking for and Terrie said she had a male puppy who she would sell us with full registration. She insisted that we meet halfway between her house and my sister's home to look at the puppy and make the deal. She did not come to the meeting but sent her husband and a couple of children to meet us with the puppy. The little guy was very cute and since she was only asking $400 with full AKC registration we bought him on the spot.

Gizmo was not extremely clean when we got him. The lower portions of his legs were stained red as if he had been out in the Alabama clay a lot while it was wet. It took several months for the color to go back to white with many baths (which he hated).

I took Gizmo to our vet immediately upon returning home from Alabama. The vet examined him and was very angry with ME because the little guy had a severe case of ear mites. I explained that we had just got him from the breeder in Alabama and he said that in Florida it would be against the law to sell a puppy in that condition. Well, we got the ear mite problem cleared up and settled in to enjoying life with Gizmo. We communicated with Terrie about the ear mite problem and she expressed amazement, saying that she had never had a problem with them. She did not volunteer to help cover the cost of the treatment but we decided that it was no big deal. Gizmo was a great little guy. He was extreemly smart and friendly and was a very special guy. After about a year we came to the realization that he was not going to be good for our proposed breeding program because he was small for the breed standard, weighing in at less than three pounds. But we loved him and greatly enjoyed his antics.

In July of that year, when Gizmo was perhaps sixteen months old, he had a severe seizure. I found him in the corner of our screened in back porch, on his side and in an absolute panic. It was the weekend and our regular vet was out of town for the 4th of July holiday so I took Gizmo to the emergency service at another animal hospital. The vet who saw him was very good. During the entire ordeal that followed she personally tended to Gizmo, taking him home with her each night so he would not have to be more or less alone in the clinic overnight. She took several approaches to his problem and in the long run diagnosed it as probable Maltese Encephalitis. At that time this was a new emerging problem which had been seen rarely. It is not reversible and total destroys the dogs quality of life. After a week of care and treatment Gizmo was no getting better. We finally reached the point where we knew that the best thing for the poor guy was to help him cross over the rainbow bridge, to play in a place where he would be made whole again. 

After Gizmo's death we communicated with Terrie Canada, relating the situation and passing on the information the vet had given us that include the fact that it is believed that this condition is a genetic disorder. At first she was very sympathetic and responsive, saying that she would pull his parents from her breeding program and would give us a replacement male puppy as soon as she had one available. Well, things went down hill from there. She finally offered us a male puppy but with limited registration. Since that was not the situation with Gizmo we asked for a puppy with full registration. She refused and we finally stopped dealing directly with her because of her attitude.

After considering things a bit we decided to pursue the matter in the legal system. We sued her in Alabama small claims court. Although we sued for both the cost of Gizmo and the vet bills for his care due to this problem we were awarded only the cost of Gizmo.

Based on our experiences, I would recommend that you do NOT purchase a Maltese puppy from this lady.

Herb Cumbie


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> LadyMontavia,
> 
> To answer your questions, yes we know this breeder and have purchased a puppy from her. Sadly I cannot recommend that you do business with her based on experience. ..........[/B]


Gosh, Herb, thank you so much for taking the time to share all this information with us. I am so very sorry to hear what you went through with little Gizmo. It must have been heartbreaking.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Herb, thank you so much for sharing your experience with Angel-Lite here. So many people some here before they purchase a Maltese, looking for information and breeder referrals. It's wonderful that Joe allows total honesty on SM and people like you are brave enough to come forward and tell your story. Hopefully, you can prevent someone else from having to go through a similar situation.

I am so sorry about your Gizmo. I know firsthand what it is like to love a chronically ill Maltese. You don't love them any less nor does your heart break any less, does it? It's so important to get that message out there, how important it is to buy a puppy from a reputable breeder. Thank you again for sharing.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

Herb, omg.. did you ever see the parents of your poor little angel? How did they look if you did? My heart goes out to you for having to deal with such a horrible situation... this is my biggest fear when the time comes when I go to pick out another maltese for myself to love... its so hard to find a good breeder in my area.










This might be a really stupid comment but I have never had any problems with worms or mites or anything else a lot of these puppies come with... is this something poorly taken care of puppies only get? or is it something ANY puppy can get? Kodie was poorly bred but very WELL taken care of before I got him. All of kodie's breeders maltese are well taken care of... I never heard of them having any problems with worms, etc... they just made a very poor decision to bred kodie's mom plus bred her with a tiny male. Two of the pups were sickly... but kodie was lucky. Other than that... the bigger maltese they have always have very healthy pups.



> Herb, thank you so much for sharing your experience with Angel-Lite here. So many people some here before they purchase a Maltese, looking for information and breeder referrals. It's wonderful that Joe allows total honesty on SM and people like you are brave enough to come forward and tell your story. Hopefully, you can prevent someone else from having to go through a similar situation.[/B]


I agree! Thank you Joe! I will look for all the advice I can using SM when I start to look for a breeder to add to my little maltese family of mine. hehe


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

that kinda story is what scares me about buying a maltee. im afraid that will happen to me.. i dont want to have to go through something like that..


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Herb, omg.. did you ever see the parents of your poor little angel? How did they look if you did? My heart goes out to you for having to deal with such a horrible situation... this is my biggest fear when the time comes when I go to pick out another maltese for myself to love... its so hard to find a good breeder in my area.
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We do things a little differently here in the south, where we don't have the cold you do to kill the varments (worms) that may be living in the ground. Here, it is a good practice to start a worming program with pups when they are two to three weeks old. If a breeder does this, then there should be no problem.
Ear mites are something else common to our area. It is something else that we have to be just as diligent about as the worms. It's easy to treat or do preventive for, and good breeders do this in their routine grooming. In fact, you would probably think I'm a fanatic about checking ears and clipping feet. 
I had a vet tell me something recently about coccidiosis here in our area. He equated the success in getting rid of it to the house fly and the mosquito. I also do a round of treatment for that, just to be on the safe side. A number of pups have the potential to develop this after going to their new home, even if they check negative on their vet exam, as stress can bring out the little "bugs". 
Again, I think it's just the part of the country you are dealing with and the care the pups have had prior to going to their new home.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> We do things a little differently here in the south, where we don't have the cold you do to kill the varments (worms) that may be living in the ground. Here, it is a good practice to start a worming program with pups when they are two to three weeks old. If a breeder does this, then there should be no problem.
> Ear mites are something else common to our area. It is something else that we have to be just as diligent about as the worms. It's easy to treat or do preventive for, and good breeders do this in their routine grooming. In fact, you would probably think I'm a fanatic about checking ears and clipping feet.
> I had a vet tell me something recently about coccidiosis here in our area. He equated the success in getting rid of it to the house fly and the mosquito. I also do a round of treatment for that, just to be on the safe side. A number of pups have the potential to develop this after going to their new home, even if they check negative on their vet exam, as stress can bring out the little "bugs".
> Again, I think it's just the part of the country you are dealing with and the care the pups have had prior to going to their new home.[/B]


But the puppies aren't outside are they? I thought it was very odd that Herb's puppy had been stained from red clay. What in the world was the puppy doing outside? I would think all puppies would be indoors at least until they have completed all of their shots ??


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Herb,
I'm so sorry you and your family had to go through the problems you did with Gizmo. I will refer people to this post if I have a question about this breeder.
I do have a question, which has nothing to do with this particular breeder. I guess it's just a "what if" one or my being "nosey". I know nothing about this woman, other than what you wrote, and what I saw on her website, so my question is "generic", and not aimed at her. So, here goes.
Is it possible that the pup she sold you came from one sire, and there were no restrictions on where she could sell the offspring of his sire? Then, when she offered you a replacement, she was using a different sire, and there were restrictions on where offspring could be placed? In other words, did she have something in her contract that offspring from the sire had to go on a show contract or she could be fined thousands for each time she violated the contract? In this case, it would have been easier to return the money for Gizmo, help with the vet bills, and try to keep goodwill.


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

> We do things a little differently here in the south, where we don't have the cold you do to kill the varments (worms) that may be living in the ground. Here, it is a good practice to start a worming program with pups when they are two to three weeks old. If a breeder does this, then there should be no problem.
> Ear mites are something else common to our area. It is something else that we have to be just as diligent about as the worms. It's easy to treat or do preventive for, and good breeders do this in their routine grooming. In fact, you would probably think I'm a fanatic about checking ears and clipping feet.
> I had a vet tell me something recently about coccidiosis here in our area. He equated the success in getting rid of it to the house fly and the mosquito. I also do a round of treatment for that, just to be on the safe side. A number of pups have the potential to develop this after going to their new home, even if they check negative on their vet exam, as stress can bring out the little "bugs".
> Again, I think it's just the part of the country you are dealing with and the care the pups have had prior to going to their new home.[/B]


what is coccidiosis? i was always told that pups are born with worms and all those parasites and that you just have to treat them after they get old enough. is it true that pups are born with all those parasites? (mainly worms, the only thing i can think of but there are many diff. kinds of worms)


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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I wasn't referring to Herb's pup when I answered the question. I was just responding to how pups can be different here than in the north.
In the case with my own pups, they don't leave my house to even go into my own yard until they have had at least two shots. Then, they are carried by me, and only placed where I want them (like if I carry one to the nursing home, I use a certain area to potty). Some don't leave then. Some of my dogs never go outside. Even though my adults are routinely wormed, I still start the worm program with my pups. I live on 120 acres. Cows were raised here for years; deer and coyotes, as well as stray animals cross my property. My rescues can run free here, and they sleep on my screen porch (unless it is cold, then they are inside), so they can bring all kinds of things like worms into the yard. I also enjoy walking my property, and I can bring things in on my shoes, no matter how diligent I am. I can also pick up things out in the community, as any person in my area can. I guess I'm just trying to point out I use a lot of preventive so that there won't be a problem. 


Coccidia 
How is Coccidiosis Treated? We do not have any medicine that will kill coccidia; only the patient’s immune system can do that. But we can give medicines ...

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_coccidia.html

How Do Dogs Get Worms? 
How a dog gets infected by worms depends on the kind of worms the dog has. There are a lot of different kinds of worms that live in dogs. ...

http://www.uga.edu/~lam/kids/worms/default.html


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

> Coccidia
> How is Coccidiosis Treated? We do not have any medicine that will kill coccidia; only the patient’s immune system can do that. But we can give medicines ...
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> http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_coccidia.html
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you know, people used to tell me u could get worms from a dog, but that site says you cant! i feel so relieved. that was a big fear of mine as well. but i know this girl, her daughter plays in the flower bed and eats the dirt, and she got worms twice! so maybe she wasnt getting worms from the dirt, maybe it was something they fed her or something? parasites are such nasty little things...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

You can get worms from a dog. Hookworms are transmitted to humans by contaminated feces. Children playing in the dirt or sandboxes (that cats have used for a litterbox) can pick them up pretty easily since they put their hands in their mouth and aren't careful about washing their hands.

Here's more information on worms than you probably want to know!

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/worms.html


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

No matter how careful, these problems can occur. I guess I'm just a little more open to admit it than some. 

I have a friend who lives in an exclusive area who breeds a litter of two a year. Unless her dogs are at dog shows, they don't leave her home. She stays home with her pups, and her home is as sterile as a hospital. Yet, she had problems with coccidiosis two years ago.


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

> LadyMontavia,
> 
> To answer your questions, yes we know this breeder and have purchased a puppy from her. Sadly I cannot recommend that you do business with her based on experience.
> 
> ...


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

> No matter how careful, these problems can occur. I guess I'm just a little more open to admit it than some.
> 
> I have a friend who lives in an exclusive area who breeds a litter of two a year. Unless her dogs are at dog shows, they don't leave her home. She stays home with her pups, and her home is as sterile as a hospital. Yet, she had problems with coccidiosis two years ago.[/B]


i've been debating on my housetraining plan, i really want to use a crate and take my pup outside for potty, but i think i will just use pee pads and try to keep my pup mainly indoors. i already take my shoes off at the door and all of that. but when i have company or when my sister stays with me or my mom comes, they dont listen to me (its my moms house). i lock everyone out, but they all have keys anyway. i really dont like the whole worm thing (duh who does?) but i want to be as careful as possible. any tips on that subject?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

As far as worms go, don't obsess!







If you use Interceptor as your monthly heartworm prevention, it will also kill any other worm that she may have picked up. Worms really aren't a problem in adult dogs. It's fleas that we have to battle more (and can also cause tapeworms).

Where to potty is a much debated topic. To me, cross training is the perfect solution so that when it rains or you're stuck at work, the dog has an option where to go. Lady is primarily outdoor trained, but learned to use a pee pad in a pinch which is fabulous.

I also believe that dogs, even toy dogs, benefit mentally from being outside, sniffing the sniffs, etc, _dog things_. Even my 10 year old arthritic Lady loves her walks! She does more sniffing than running, but its great excercise for her mind and body! Just like you probably find with your son, fresh air tires them out, a big plus with a puppy!

If you are living in your Mom's house, she should probably make the call. Many people find pee pads, the idea of dogs pottying inside, disgusting. I would discuss it with her before making a decision.

I keep forgetting to ask you.....are you finding that having a toddler is making it harder to find a reputable breeder? It is my understanding that most won't place a puppy in a family with young children since the breed is so fragile and easily injured.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Herb and others who let us know the truth..........Thank you so much for an honest story of your experience with a breeder. It is SO hard to get the truth about breeders (actual names!) and all the situations or 'flags' we need to look for. Although Herb's and the other excellent points by HappyB and msmagnolia certainly point out the multiple uncertainties that scare us to death when looking for a puppy, it does help in our education!

I briefly looked at puppies available a few weeks ago and was surprised that even though I only looked at 3 of the top US breeders (who have Malts on the top 10 list) the puppies Mommies were unknown none were CH dogs, and I could find very little or nothing about them. They were even from mostly unknown parents.

Some dog breed registries or clubs insist on health certification on any known genetic disorders of that breed. Why doesn't Maltese? I know that a lot of things get 'covered up' when showing and just because a dog gets enough points to CH does not mean it is genetically free of possible problems. I would like to see more testing of breeding stock. I would be interested in the response of some of the breeders here on that. Wouldn't that at least help take some of the uncertainty out of finding a healthy pup?

Thanks to Joe, again, for letting be forth-right on any subject!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Frosty's Mom, if you missed the recent additions to our "Breeders Who Tested" thread, we did find some who do, including Rhapsody, Divine, Four Halls and Chrisman.

Here's the thread:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7854


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Frosty's Mom, if you missed the recent additions to our "Breeders Who Tested" thread, we did find some who do, including Rhapsody, Divine, Four Halls and Chrisman.
> 
> Here's the thread:
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7854[/B]



Have you checked out the total number of dogs on this site? I'm beginning to think that some of these folks are like Pippin pointed out ( which includes). We have had some testing done, yet the extra fee wasn't paid to get the information in the data bank, as there really hasn't been that much emphasis on documentation in our breed. For instance, a good vet will check patellas on any Maltese when they go in for check up. All mine have been checked, and I'm sure thousands of others have too. It's just about getting the paperwork completed and paying the minimal fee. That is on my "to do" list for 2006.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> Frosty's Mom, if you missed the recent additions to our "Breeders Who Tested" thread, we did find some who do, including Rhapsody, Divine, Four Halls and Chrisman.
> 
> Here's the thread:
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7854[/B]


Thanks! I know all but Four Halls. I can't seem to find a website for them. Any ideas?


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

> As far as worms go, don't obsess!
> 
> 
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i live in my moms house, which is divided kinda like a duplex, but she has the key and comes n goes as she pleases. 
the breeders i've talked to havent asked me about children. none of them. i kinda dread it when it comes to them asking questions because i know that a lot say they wont place a pup in a home with a small child. all i can do is tell them that i have one 3 year old, if they choose not to, oh well, its on to the next breeder. that's their decision if they say no, but what can i do? my friend has a pitbull puppy, my son is fascinated with it for maybe 2 seconds, but he's more into his Thomas and Friends train engines. before thomas, he really liked kittens and dogs, but after his brother's (from a diff. mom) dog bit him and then grabbed his shirt, he hasnt liked animals much. he stay away. even small dogs and pups he tells me they are trying to bite him and he runs away. so.. i'll just have to go with the flow with the puppy subject.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

umm... this is an interesting topic.. and i've always wondered about it.

kodie's breeder doesnt really take any of her dogs outside. They are trainned on newspaper. They have their own room in the house with all their stuff PLUS they are allowed to walk around the whole house when they are being watched. Maybe this is a reason why they never really had a problem with worms, mites, etc..?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

We had cats before my kids were born and my mom had dogs, so my kids were used to being around animals from the start. From experience, I can tell you it's their friends I would worry about more than my own children.

I caught two elementary age boys _riding_ poor Petie (Golden Retriever mix)! 

Your little boy is young, but when he starts having friends over, it will change everything. Not all kids are gentle and kind to pets, especially if they don't have them at home.

I read somewhere to think of a Maltese's bones like chicken bones, that fragile and easily broken. And of course, there is the fear of dropping. Periodically on these forums I read about a tragic accident where a young child drops a Maltese.

When my daughter was in 3rd grade, one of her friends got a little Yorkie puppy. The kids were very responsible around pets, in fact, the dad was a vet. But Carly had a friend over and let Karen hold the puppy who got wiggly as puppies do. Karen dropped him and the poor thing broke his back. The poor baby had to be euthanized.

There really is a very good reason why most reputable breeders won't sell a puppy to someone with young children. And as concerned as you are about getting one from a great breeder, I'd watch out for those who will  sell you a pup knowing you have a small child!


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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Personally, I think if a breeder wants to exclude everyone with young children, they should also exclude single women and every young couple in the child bearing age range, and the ones who are old enough to be grandparents (because those kids visit too and some even move in). The only problem I have is when people lie about it. I want to evaluate each situation individually. I once felt very good about selling to a woman almost 50 with two grown children. She neglected to tell me she had five adopted children from age two to ten. I got to know her through many phone contacts over a period of months (we still talk), and one by one, I learned about another child.


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

> Personally, I think if a breeder wants to exclude everyone with young children, they should also exclude single women and every young couple in the child bearing age range, and the ones who are old enough to be grandparents (because those kids visit too and some even move in). The only problem I have is when people lie about it. I want to evaluate each situation individually. I once felt very good about selling to a woman almost 50 with two grown children. She neglected to tell me she had five adopted children from age two to ten. I got to know her through many phone contacts over a period of months (we still talk), and one by one, I learned about another child.[/B]


im not going to say they shouldn't, i believe its a breeders right to choose to sell or not to sell to a family with a child in the home. but i think it would be unfair to just say no without getting the facts of each individual situation (as you say you do). I wouldn't lie about it to a breeder, in fact, im a really bad liar and i end up giving myself up after a really short period of time. I *could* lie and say i dont have children, but my child is with me most of the time when im not at work and he's really noisy with pretending to be a train or an airplane or a star wars fighter, etc. I wouldn't say that i'd trust him around a puppy alone or fully holding a puppy even with me there. He gets jealous when i hold other people's babies and tries to push the baby away and get in my arms. With kids at his age, I think they just regard a puppy as a toy. Kinda how they throw their toys into a toy box or stack stuff up, or put toy cars in the toilet for underwater exploration, or how he puts his trains in the shower, covers the drain and makes them swim. He'd do all the same to a puppy. the puppy needs a bath, he fits in the toilet. Time to rinse, flush the toilet. I would never leave him unsupervised and i would probably keep the puppy in a room away from my son when i cannot be in the room 100% of the time (cleaning, shower, etc), I know accidents happen. Hopefully breeders that ask me about children will ask me more questions to get all of those things out in the open instead of "you have a child? he's 3? I'm sorry i cant sell you a puppy". If I was buying a puppy for my son to get rough with, to be unsupervised with, then i'd go look for an ad in the paper and buy a mixed breed for $25-50 and not give a darn. But this is a puppy that is an addition to my family (will be) and that i have spent my hard earned money on. It would be as if i had given birth to another baby. Would I let my son have any kind of unsupervised interaction? Heck no! I wouldn't do that with a puppy either.

the red sentence came out wrong! i am soo sorry if anyone was offended or shocked by it! i wouldnt actually do that! but i meant that if i didnt care, i would do that, but i do care!!!! so im sorry that i worded that wrong!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> If I was buying a puppy for my son to get rough with, to be unsupervised with, then i'd go look for an ad in the paper and buy a mixed breed for $25-50 and not give a darn.[/B]


Maybe this statement didn't come out the way you intended, but I am horrified that you would allow your three-year old to play unsupervised with and "get rough" with any living creature and "not give a darn". All God's creatures deserve to be treated with respect whether they cost $2,500 or $25.


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

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hehe yes it came out wrong!!! i didnt mean it that way like i would do that. I would never do that! that is cruel, mutt or purebred, cheap or expensive! i didnt even read your second sentence but u got it out there. i didnt type that up the right way, i am so sorry! i wouldnt do that!


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## Lacie2 (Sep 23, 2005)

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I have had experience with Coccidia when I had my St. Bernards. I was told that the only way to kill Coccidia in a kennel was to wash everything (that the pups came in contact with,) with Ammonia.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Something to think about is not only how your son is now, playing with his Star Wars toys, etc. right in front of you, but how he will be over the hopefully 15 years of this dog's life. Believe me, he and his friends will do things even in the next room that you don't approve of!

Given human nature, it would be hard for anyone to say that they could supervise a toddler and small dog together 100% of the time. Phones rings, pots boil over, etc. 

Most likely if you do find a breeder that meets with your approval who will sell you a puppy, she will suggest getting a bigger, sturdier Maltese. Hopefully Traci (Tlunn) will see this as she has children (but much older than your son) and swears her big boy Brink (10 lbs. I think) is just a perfect size for her busy family. My Lady is about 9-9.5 pounds and she's still very much a small dog.

You don't have your heart set on a super tiny one, do you?


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

> You don't have your heart set on a super tiny one, do you?[/B]


i dont have a my heart set on a tiny pup, just a regular sized maltee.. i am just trying to plan everything before i get one so i have an in-case-of plan of action. i know accidents do happen, but i want to try and prevent them as much as humanly possible.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

With this being the holiday season and families being together, I have fresh visions of children from one to four playing. I told you I would consider each case on an individual basis. Well, I have two grandchildren, ages one and four, and they would not get one of my pups (if I had one). Neither would my niece's four year old who was at the holiday celebration Monday. Now, if I found someone like my three growing up, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I strive to have pups in the five to six pound range. So far, I think my largest pup is seven pounds (and his owner overfeeds him). These would not be well suited to young children in most instances. As I said, there are exceptions. Lady's Mom has a good point in the idea of getting a larger dog. My children grew up with a Schnauzer, and I think they are perfect for children. They are small enough, yet large enough to be a companion for children. Mine also had a sweet disposition. Looking back, my three would have done just as well with a Maltese, but that extra size sure did help. 
Right now, I have a waiting list for my pups. One family has two chlildren, ages seven and ten. They lost their eleven year old Maltese. I have no problems selling them one. I also had no problem with one family who had a two and a six year old who had grown up with Maltese. I got to visit with the younger child, and I felt comfortable that it would be OK. They have the little boy previously known as Dash, and he's doing fine.
But, these children had a good history with dogs. Given your son has a negative history, I would encourage you to think long and hard about bringing a small dog into your home at this time.


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

> With this being the holiday season and families being together, I have fresh visions of children from one to four playing. I told you I would consider each case on an individual basis. Well, I have two grandchildren, ages one and four, and they would not get one of my pups (if I had one). Neither would my niece's four year old who was at the holiday celebration Monday. Now, if I found someone like my three growing up, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I strive to have pups in the five to six pound range. So far, I think my largest pup is seven pounds (and his owner overfeeds him). These would not be well suited to young children in most instances. As I said, there are exceptions. Lady's Mom has a good point in the idea of getting a larger dog. My children grew up with a Schnauzer, and I think they are perfect for children. They are small enough, yet large enough to be a companion for children. Mine also had a sweet disposition. Looking back, my three would have done just as well with a Maltese, but that extra size sure did help.
> Right now, I have a waiting list for my pups. One family has two chlildren, ages seven and ten. They lost their eleven year old Maltese. I have no problems selling them one. I also had no problem with one family who had a two and a six year old who had grown up with Maltese. I got to visit with the younger child, and I felt comfortable that it would be OK. They have the little boy previously known as Dash, and he's doing fine.
> But, these children had a good history with dogs. Given your son has a negative history, I would encourage you to think long and hard about bringing a small dog into your home at this time.[/B]


has a negative history w/dogs pertaining to what? the only negative history is his brother's 2 year old female pitbull who he played with until she bit him and drew blood, then tried to attack him (picking him out of a room full of children, about 6 kids, my son being the smallest). then my father's mastiff/lab mix bit him on the back and nipped him on his arm, and growled at him. the good history is that he started off life with a pomeranian that was maybe 3 lbs. (she died about a year ago) we also have 2 outside cats, which he loves and they play with him and follow him around. in my opinion of seeing my son with animals, he does better with small animals. but we are all entitled to our own opinions and how we handle our own situations


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> Most likely if you do find a breeder that meets with your approval who will sell you a puppy, she will suggest getting a bigger, sturdier Maltese. Hopefully Traci (Tlunn) will see this as she has children (but much older than your son) and swears her big boy Brink (10 lbs. I think) is just a perfect size for her busy family. My Lady is about 9-9.5 pounds and she's still very much a small dog.[/B]



Brinkley is about 9-10 pounds and he is great for my kids. Neyland's size still makes me a little nervous though. My children (now 8 and 5) are SUPER gentle and loving with all our animals. We have three cats, the two malts, and two large outside dogs. They have grown up with animals all their lives and I think that has helped. As with any situation, accidents can happen, no matter how good you think they are...dogs or kids...(see my next topic started in a few minutes!)

So, my suggestion is to aim for a larger end maltese if that is what you are set on. Another friend of mine just adopted a beagle from the shelter for her young son. Please understand that I am not opposed to families with children having malts...but after having a smaller one now (Neyland), I can see how if mine were younger and rowdier, I would be a nervous wreck all the time!


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

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my son isnt rowdy at all, he is gentle with animals, he's just had a couple of bad experiences with two larger dogs. i dont really want a larger maltee, i want a small malt, in the standard range, but if i get a pup that ends up being larger, i'd be happy with it anyway. but no matter what size, breed, shape, color, etc of puppy i have, i would still be nervous not only around my son, but around everyone. I just hope breeders get to know me first before saying no (or even yes for that matter) on placing the pup in my home. the pup isnt for my son, although it will be part of my family. i am buying it for me (with my son in mind of course) so its not like i am buying a pup for him to play with. see all the complicating things that come about when deciding on getting a puppy....jeez!


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your son was rowdy...just speaking from experience from when mine was younger and seeing my neice/nephew with their chi's etc.


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## gottagettamaltee (Dec 1, 2005)

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my son isnt rowdy at all, he is gentle with animals, he's just had a couple of bad experiences with two larger dogs. i dont really want a larger maltee, i want a small malt, in the standard range, but if i get a pup that ends up being larger, i'd be happy with it anyway. but no matter what size, breed, shape, color, etc of puppy i have, i would still be nervous not only around my son, but around everyone. I just hope breeders get to know me first before saying no (or even yes for that matter) on placing the pup in my home. the pup isnt for my son, although it will be part of my family. i am buying it for me (with my son in mind of course) so its not like i am buying a pup for him to play with. see all the complicating things that come about when deciding on getting a puppy....jeez!








[/B][/QUOTE]


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your son was rowdy...just speaking from experience from when mine was younger and seeing my neice/nephew with their chi's etc.








[/B][/QUOTE]

its ok, i was just clarifying that! just in case you read the parts about the cars in the toilet or the trains swimming in the bottom of the shower, or his airplane noises... its just his little imagination.. what the heck, you have kids, you know all about how they are just so silly when it comes to play! i've seen other kids though, that do similar stuff, but with a different intent behind it. My little cousin once took my aunt's antique glass jar top thing and stuck it in the bottom of the trash can and covered it with trash after my aunt told her to leave it alone. or how she would steal money and visitors' belongings and hide them. she was only like 4 or 5. my son isnt that old, but i would *assume* that it wasnt just innocent play..


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## JustMe (May 5, 2004)

> ...
> Is it possible that the pup she sold you came from one sire, and there were no restrictions on where she could sell the offspring of his sire? Then, when she offered you a replacement, she was using a different sire, and there were restrictions on where offspring could be placed? In other words, did she have something in her contract that offspring from the sire had to go on a show contract or she could be fined thousands for each time she violated the contract? In this case, it would have been easier to return the money for Gizmo, help with the vet bills, and try to keep goodwill.[/B]


That is certainly a possibility, although she didn't say that at the time. She simply said that all her puppies were sold with limited AKC registration. We are quite familiar now with restrictive contracts regarding showing and breeding rights on good quality dogs. I just wish things had turned out differently...


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