# Afraid my pup will be HUGE full grown



## VioletVera

I googled "maltese weight chart" and found a bunch of charts like this one: Pet Maltese | Maltese Growth Chart I wanted to see how big Violet might be at her full adult weight. Well, at 13 weeks she was 4.5 lbs (72 oz) and WAY off the chart as you'll notice. At 13 weeks, the highest weight is 57 oz projecting a possible 7 lbs fully grown. We have a vet appointment next week (at 17 weeks old) so I'll ask the vet to weigh her again. 

When my friend Theresa's dogs mated, she offered me one of the pups (in exchange for a visit with her in FL- she didn't charge me any money!). She told me that the dad was 5 lbs and the mom was 6 lbs. But when I got to FL, those dogs looked bigger than Violet and if she was 4.5 lbs when I picked her up, there was no way her dad was 5 lbs... maybe more like 7 or even 8 lbs. (I jokingly told Theresa after the vet appointment that she should get a new scale!) Violet takes after her dad with really long legs and long body and looks a lot more like him than the mom.

I'm just a little concerned that I'm going to have a 12 lb monster on my hands when all I really wanted was a little 5 or 6 lb dog... is there any way to know how large she will get? 

Does anyone have a Maltese that's 9-12 lbs? Is it possible for them to be that big?

Thank you in advance for your input!


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## Ladysmom

If Theresa didn't know the background of the dogs she bred, there is no way for her to predict adult weight. Reputable breeders carefully breed to produce Maltese within the standard using only top quality Maltese as their breeding stock. Backyard breeders just put two dogs together with very unpredictable results.

To answer your question, yes, it's entirely possible to have a Maltese weigh 9-12 pounds - even more sometimes. Often poorly breed Maltese have Bichon mixed into their background which explains large puppies in later litters.

Here's a good article that explains it:

Maltese Dog and Puppy Size/Weight...does it matter??


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## jmm

Unfortunately, the size of the parents is not always a great indicator. The size of the dog's behind them in the pedigree is often a more accurate picture. Unless she came from a reputable breeder who really knows their lines, you have no way of predicting. She may stop growing at 6 months and that's all you get or you may have a 12 lb dog. Regardless of size, she is still your beloved pet and that should be all that matters.


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## silverhaven

Hard to predict as there are a lot of factors, genetics can be pretty complicated. But I think the charts are good guess. I checked out the chart as Lola was growing and it has been pretty accurate. She also was off the charts. She arrived at 13 weeks at 3.2 lbs and at a year I think she is fully grown as she hasn't grown in months at 7lbs 8oz, and at this the vet thought it was a perfect weight for her frame.

So I would have thought that your little one will be on the bigger side, maybe more like 9lbs than 12 though, and yes some maltese do get that big, but sometimes it is because some of their past breeding has included some bichon in them. I am not saying that this is the case in your situation though.


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## Orla

A lot of badly bred maltese can be 10lbs +

It sounds like she will be big - but you didn't go to a reputable breeder so thats what you should expect.

Those charts were all wrong for Milo - at one stage it said 5lbs, another it said 7lbs - he ended up being 5.8lbs.


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## Matilda's mommy

Matilda is almost 10 lbs and B&B is 12lbs, they are overweight and are on a diet, Matilda's ideal weight should be 8lbs, B&B 9lbs, but I really don't mind having bigger girls, I was alittle disappointed because Matilda's mom and dad were 4lbs, but I love her personality and that is so important to me. we knew how big B&B was (she was our rescue,) I couldn't love them more then I do, so don't worry whatever weight she ends up you will love her with all your heart.


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## CrystalAndZoe

My first Maltese Zoe came from a backyard breeder. This was before I even knew the term. lol Thankfully she's perfectly healthy which really was my only concern. And she's a big girl. She's just an ounce or 2 shy of 9lbs. And truthfully, I really love her size. Still small, but not so small you have to be super careful with. Even though she's my poorly bred girl with not the true Maltese temperament, she is super sweet, smart, loving and not even an inkling of a luxating patella. 

I think there are many MANY Malts here on this forum that are in the 9lb + bracket. She's the love of your life and will only become even more so as you spend years together bonding.


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## VioletVera

I hate to type this- but Theresa bought BOTH of her dogs at (gasp) a pet store. So they could have been the product of (gasp) puppy mills. (I know, I know, I sort of cringed when she told me that, but she IS a friend and I didn't want to disrespect her.) The female dog went into heat at 7 months which took Theresa by surprise (she thought it was 10 months) and the male just couldn't keep away from her. She separated the 2 dogs, but it was too late, she was already pregnant. So yeah... "2 dogs just got it on"...

I wasn't looking for a show dog anyway, just a cute little furry pet. And I must say, Violet is such a GOOD sweet puppy, the trainer who came last week was super impressed with her and how fast a learner she is.

Don't get me wrong- I love Violet more than I ever thought I would and would still love her at 12 lbs, but she's just SO cute at the size she is now... I wish this was her final weight... It's like when my mom had my brother... she would say, "don't grow! Don't grow!" and now my "little" brother is a 230 lb 6'5" tall man, LOL! 

I'm just enjoying Violet everyday, but I do wish there was a way I'd know how big she's going to get. I may have to buy a bigger crate, LOL!


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## VioletVera

Ladysmom said:


> If Theresa didn't know the background of the dogs she bred, there is no way for her to predict adult weight. Reputable breeders carefully breed to produce Maltese within the standard using only top quality Maltese as their breeding stock. Backyard breeders just put two dogs together with very unpredictable results.
> 
> To answer your question, yes, it's entirely possible to have a Maltese weigh 9-12 pounds - even more sometimes. Often poorly breed Maltese have Bichon mixed into their background which explains large puppies in later litters.
> 
> Here's a good article that explains it:
> 
> Maltese Dog and Puppy Size/Weight...does it matter??


Thank you for the link to that article Ladysmom, that was really interesting. Theresa sent me photos of the puppies at one day old, and their hair was straight, not with the slight wave of the Bichon. Though NOW, Violet does have a slight wave to her coat making me wonder if she is in fact a mixed pup.

Oh, and BTW, there were SIX puppies in the litter... also making me question if she's mixed... I found something online that said average Maltese litters are only 2-4 pups. Oh well, I still love her


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## lovemylittleguy

I looked at the maltese growth chart and my fluff pretty much followed it to a tee. He is 3 and now weighs 6.2 lbs. Im sure his growth pattern isnt typical, I would think like children, they grow at their own pace.


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## Orla

VioletVera said:


> I hate to type this- but Theresa bought BOTH of her dogs at (gasp) a pet store. So they could have been the product of (gasp) puppy mills. (I know, I know, I sort of cringed when she told me that, but she IS a friend and I didn't want to disrespect her.) The female dog went into heat at 7 months which took Theresa by surprise (she thought it was 10 months) and the male just couldn't keep away from her. She separated the 2 dogs, but it was too late, she was already pregnant. So yeah... "2 dogs just got it on"...
> 
> I wasn't looking for a show dog anyway, just a cute little furry pet. And I must say, Violet is such a GOOD sweet puppy, the trainer who came last week was super impressed with her and how fast a learner she is.
> 
> Don't get me wrong- I love Violet more than I ever thought I would and would still love her at 12 lbs, but she's just SO cute at the size she is now... I wish this was her final weight... It's like when my mom had my brother... she would say, "don't grow! Don't grow!" and now my "little" brother is a 230 lb 6'5" tall man, LOL!
> 
> I'm just enjoying Violet everyday, but I do wish there was a way I'd know how big she's going to get. I may have to buy a bigger crate, LOL!



oh yikes!!
So your pups mother wasn't even 12 months when she had the litter? 

Why weren't her dogs spayed and neutered?

Even if I was looking for a pet maltese and my best friend had these pups available I'd say no.

Badly bred maltese just doesn't mean that they are not show quality - your pup could have serious health problems :angry:

Your friend was very irresponsible to leave her dogs intact, leave them unsupervised when the bitch was in head and - if she had brought the female to the vet right after she could have gotten an injection that prevents the pregnancy.


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## beckinwolf

Don't worry about her weight. My Micky is around 11-12lbs. He's our rescue boy, so his history is unknown. As long as she is healthy and happy, that's all that matters.


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## bellaratamaltese

VioletVera said:


> Thank you for the link to that article Ladysmom, that was really interesting. Theresa sent me photos of the puppies at one day old, and their hair was straight, not with the slight wave of the Bichon. Though NOW, Violet does have a slight wave to her coat making me wonder if she is in fact a mixed pup.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, there were SIX puppies in the litter... also making me question if she's mixed... I found something online that said average Maltese litters are only 2-4 pups. Oh well, I still love her


oh that poor thing! Having 6 pups and being a puppy herself? :angry: The mom was still growing, so the adult weight you were given for the mom wasn't even accurate. It is almost unheard of for a maltese to have 6 pups, not to say that it doesn't happen but it's very very uncommon. I think you're right, there is some Bichon in those lines. If that is truly the case, Violet can very well end up being a bigger girl than you wanted, since Bichons are obviously larger than maltese with coarser faces. 

I'm sure your friend wasn't expecting the puppy to go into heat at 7 mos, but there was still a huge bit of irresponsibility going on by having an intact male. Since he was purchased from a pet store, I'm sure you agree that he should have been neutered.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad about your Violet (because obviously, if your friend had acted responsibly, you wouldn't have your sweet girl there with you) but it makes me queasy to think of a young pup having puppies and I have to wonder how many people buy dogs from pet stores with the intent to breed them. Dogs that come from puppy mills do not make good breeding stock, as I'm sure we can all agree!


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## k/c mom

VioletVera said:


> I hate to type this- but Theresa bought BOTH of her dogs at (gasp) a pet store. So they could have been the product of (gasp) puppy mills. (I know, I know, I sort of cringed when she told me that, but she IS a friend and* I didn't want to disrespect her.)* The female dog went into heat at 7 months which took Theresa by surprise (she thought it was 10 months) and the male just couldn't keep away from her. She separated the 2 dogs, but it was too late, she was already pregnant. So yeah... "2 dogs just got it on"...
> 
> I wasn't looking for a show dog anyway, just a cute little furry pet. And I must say, Violet is such a GOOD sweet puppy, the trainer who came last week was super impressed with her and how fast a learner she is.
> 
> Don't get me wrong- I love Violet more than I ever thought I would and would still love her at 12 lbs, but she's just SO cute at the size she is now... I wish this was her final weight... It's like when my mom had my brother... she would say, "don't grow! Don't grow!" and now my "little" brother is a 230 lb 6'5" tall man, LOL!
> 
> I'm just enjoying Violet everyday, but I do wish there was a way I'd know how big she's going to get. I may have to buy a bigger crate, LOL!


You say you didn't want to "disrespect her" .... It's hard for me to respect someone who allows literally a baby to be bred. At 7 months your pup's mom was just a puppy herself. 

You might want to do some more reading on here regarding BYBs, etc. Most of us don't want a show dog but we do want a Malt from a responsible breeder, etc. Yet most of us didn't know this until we joined SM. If you're like most of us, even if your first Malt was from a BYB, your next Malt will be from a responsible breeder. 

Violet sure is a cutie. I love her siggy picture!


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## poochie2

Matilda's mommy said:


> Matilda is almost 10 lbs and B&B is 12lbs, they are overweight and are on a diet, Matilda's ideal weight should be 8lbs, B&B 9lbs, but I really don't mind having bigger girls, I was alittle disappointed because Matilda's mom and dad were 4lbs, but I love her personality and that is so important to me. we knew how big B&B was (she was our rescue,) I couldn't love them more then I do, so don't worry whatever weight she ends up you will love her with all your heart.


Paula, my Vanilla is 12 pounds too and the vet says he'd like to see her 9 pounds as well. I have had no luck getting the weight off.


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## VioletVera

amby said:


> oh yikes!!
> So your pups mother wasn't even 12 months when she had the litter?
> 
> Why weren't her dogs spayed and neutered?
> 
> Even if I was looking for a pet maltese and my best friend had these pups available I'd say no.
> 
> Badly bred maltese just doesn't mean that they are not show quality - your pup could have serious health problems :angry:
> 
> Your friend was very irresponsible to leave her dogs intact, leave them unsupervised when the bitch was in head and - if she had brought the female to the vet right after she could have gotten an injection that prevents the pregnancy.


Yeah, the dog was a baby when she had babies... I hope that won't pose any future health issues to Violet? She's very healthy right now. I guess it can be related to to the fact that *I* technically could have gotten pregnant at age 11, but that didn't mean it was a good idea. (I am still childless at 40, BTW, and plan to stay that way!)

There's no telling why exactly Theresa didn't have the dogs fixed, though it could have been financial reasons. She has 3 kids and her house isn't exactly, uh, "lavish". My cousin's Bichon isn't fixed because they don't have a lot of extra money with 4 children and a husband who was laid off from work for about 6 months (right after they got Ozzy at 8 months old). They are still catching up on bills, and she told me that when they have a little extra cash, she'll get him fixed. Meanwhile, her dad (my uncle) thinks we should mate Ozzy the Bichon with Violet. My reply? "No F'in way. I'm still learning how to raise my first dog, and a whole litter would just be way too much for me to handle, not to mention cross breeding isn't the best idea." Ozzy DID keep trying to hump her. I tried to capture that on video, but only was able to get this: 



 Funny how Violet kept trying to bite Ozzy's privates... I'm proud of how she was able to hold her own!!!

What's the earliest age I can get her fixed?


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## Orla

VioletVera said:


> Yeah, the dog was a baby when she had babies... I hope that won't pose any future health issues to Violet? She's very healthy right now. I guess it can be related to to the fact that *I* technically could have gotten pregnant at age 11, but that didn't mean it was a good idea. (I am still childless at 40, BTW, and plan to stay that way!)
> 
> There's no telling why exactly Theresa didn't have the dogs fixed, though it could have been financial reasons. She has 3 kids and her house isn't exactly, uh, "lavish". My cousin's Bichon isn't fixed because they don't have a lot of extra money with 4 children and a husband who was laid off from work for about 6 months (right after they got Ozzy at 8 months old). They are still catching up on bills, and she told me that when they have a little extra cash, she'll get him fixed. Meanwhile, her dad (my uncle) thinks we should mate Ozzy the Bichon with Violet. My reply? "No F'in way. I'm still learning how to raise my first dog, and a whole litter would just be way too much for me to handle, not to mention cross breeding isn't the best idea." Ozzy DID keep trying to hump her. I tried to capture that on video, but only was able to get this: YouTube - When Ozzy Met Violet (Bichon Frise dog vs. Maltese puppy - playing) Funny how Violet kept trying to bite Ozzy's privates... I'm proud of how she was able to hold her own!!!
> 
> What's the earliest age I can get her fixed?


The possible heath issues are nothing to do with the dams age - its to do with awful, puppy mill breeding!!
No tests done so god only knows what has been passed on.

Not getting dogs spayed/neutered because of financial problems is stupid - don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as! 

I'm not sure you understand good and bad breeding.


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## Bailey&Me

Your friend and your cousin might want to contact their local animal shelter to ask about low-cost spay-neuter programs in their area. I don't know much about how these work and what is needed in order to qualify, but I have heard many towns have these programs. The low-cost alteration won't include the blood panel testing that's recommended at the time of the surgery but hey, it's much better than letting the dogs continue to have puppies...


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## lovemylittleguy

I just watched the video of your beautful fluff...Isnt she just a doll. At this point it doesnt matter where she came from and how big she will get but that she is well taken take of and loved for who she is!! She looks like shes a very happy, and from what I can see a healthy little girl and thats all the matters.


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## Lacie's Mom

My Tilly is from a puppy mill/pet store rescue situation. She has very silky straight hair and a correct Maltese head -- but, she is fully grown and weighs 11 lbs. She is built like you described Violet. She has longer legs and a longer body and doesn't have an ounce of fat on her. When looking at her, I sometimes think that she may have some Chinese Crested Power Puff in her line. When I told my Vet, she said that she could definitely see that.

Anyway, she's a BIG girl -- but I love her dearly and wouldn't trade her for the world.


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## Ladysmom

VioletVera said:


> Yeah, the dog was a baby when she had babies... I hope that won't pose any future health issues to Violet?
> 
> What's the earliest age I can get her fixed?


As Amby said, the fact that her mother had her so young is not what raises concerns about her future health. It's the fact she came from two pet shop/puppy mill Maltese. Poorly bred Maltese are notorious for carrying genetic time bombs that may not go off for many years. You may face big vet bills down the line so I'd advise you to start a bank account now for vet bills and add to it monthly. BTW, that's a good idea for anyone, not just people with poorly bred dogs.

Ask your vet when he thinks you can safely spay Violet. Since she is larger, you could probably do it right at six months.


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## VioletVera

amby said:


> The possible heath issues are nothing to do with the dams age - its to do with awful, puppy mill breeding!!
> No tests done so god only knows what has been passed on.
> 
> Not getting dogs spayed/neutered because of financial problems is stupid - don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as!
> 
> I'm not sure you understand good and bad breeding.


amby, I'm usually a very kind person and I don't want to start a war on this forum, but I thought your comments were rude. My puppy is healthy, sweet and the (second) love of my life. I came on this forum to find out more information about the care of my dog from those who have had experience, not to be criticized about where or how I acquired my dog. There are PLENTY of people on here (as I've read) who have rescued Malts. They do not know their blood lines do they? Do you criticize them too?


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## bellaratamaltese

amby said:


> The possible heath issues are nothing to do with the dams age - its to do with awful, puppy mill breeding!!
> No tests done so god only knows what has been passed on.
> 
> Not getting dogs spayed/neutered because of financial problems is stupid - don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as!
> 
> I'm not sure you understand good and bad breeding.


I know we all feel strongly about this, but making the oP feel defensive about welcoming Violet into her life may not be the best thing here. 

In a perfect world, people who don't have the money won't get animals - unfortunately we live in a world of imperfection. I know you are just upset about the situation surrounding Violet's birth (as most of us are) but it's not the OP's fault, who has already proven she has Violet's best interest in mind.


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## lovemylittleguy

VioletVera said:


> amby, I'm usually a very kind person and I don't want to start a war on this forum, but I thought your comments were rude. My puppy is healthy, sweet and the (second) love of my life. I came on this forum to find out more information about the care of my dog from those who have had experience, not to be criticized about where or how I acquired my dog. There are PLENTY of people on here (as I've read) who have rescued Malts. They do not know their blood lines do they? Do you criticize them too?


I agree.


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## VioletVera

adore maltese said:


> Your friend and your cousin might want to contact their local animal shelter to ask about low-cost spay-neuter programs in their area. I don't know much about how these work and what is needed in order to qualify, but I have heard many towns have these programs. The low-cost alteration won't include the blood panel testing that's recommended at the time of the surgery but hey, it's much better than letting the dogs continue to have puppies...


adore maltese, thank you so much for that advice... I'm betting Theresa and my cousin didn't even know about these programs. I will certainly suggest looking into this to them.



lovemylittleguy said:


> Jasper Lee was one of 2 pups born,he has a sister, he was the bigger one of the litter. I just watched the video of your beautful fluff...Isnt she just a doll. At this point it doesnt matter where she came from and how big she will get but that she is well taken take of and loved for who she is!! She looks like shes a very happy, and from what I can see a healthy little girl and thats all the matters.


ovemylittleguy, thank you! She is a doll, she's really funny and makes me laugh every day. She's a riot around other dogs and my husband... she's very playful, but when she's not playing, she's the sweetest little thing.

Maybe I'll just look at it like this: I rescued her so she can be loved and well taken care of. Even if she ends up over 12 lbs, I'll just get over it and love her forever no matter what 



Lacie's Mom said:


> My Tilly is from a puppy mill/pet store rescue situation. She has very silky straight hair and a correct Maltese head -- but, she is fully grown and weighs 11 lbs. She is built like you described Violet. She has longer legs and a longer body and doesn't have an ounce of fat on her. When looking at her, I sometimes think that she may have some Chinese Crested Power Puff in her line. When I told my Vet, she said that she could definitely see that.
> 
> Anyway, she's a BIG girl -- but I love her dearly and wouldn't trade her for the world.


Lacie's Mom, I'm glad you told me that your dog is from a puppy mill/pet store rescue situation... some seem to criticize for not owning a dog that comes from "good breeding".

I'm just glad to have met some genuinly nice and helpful people on this forum that have helped me to put my mind at ease that I'm raising my dog right and I think that just by being here and asking questions shows how much I love Violet and how much I want to take good care of her.

Thank you all for your wonderful input. :wub:


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## Lacie's Mom

Vera -- I know that we all feel upset about how Violet's mom came to have puppies -- but that has nothing to do with you. You are providing a wonderful, loving home to Violete and that's what's important. 

I can tell how much you love her and know that she has a wonderful "furever" home. 

My Lacie weighs 5 1/2 - 6 lbs. and is from a reputable show breeder. My Tilly isn't from a reputable breeder and weighs 11 lbs. They're both beautiful in my eyes and I adore both of them equally. 

I think it's wonderful that you've come to SM to learn more about Maltese and also to share Violet with her SM Awnties. Please post more picture when you can.


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## VioletVera

bellaratamaltese said:


> I know we all feel strongly about this, but making the oP feel defensive about welcoming Violet into her life may not be the best thing here.
> 
> In a perfect world, people who don't have the money won't get animals - unfortunately we live in a world of imperfection. I know you are just upset about the situation surrounding Violet's birth (as most of us are) but it's not the OP's fault, who has already proven she has Violet's best interest in mind.





lovemylittleguy said:


> I agree.


Thanks to both of you for your support. I must admit, I was pretty upset being attacked like that. "Sorry" for not having a perfectly pedigreed best in show dog. In hindsight, maybe adopting Violet from a "backyard breeder" as my friend was called may not have been the best thing after doing more reading here on this forum, but why make me feel so bad about about opening my home and my heart to Violet? She's a living, breathing being, sweet and funny, and I love her anyway.


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## CrystalAndZoe

Of course you love your little Violet. She's absolutely precious! And you're correct, we can tell you want to be the best mommy since you are here and are trying to learn. I was the same way 6 plus years ago with my Zoe. The thing that will be difficult for you considering some of the comments you've shared that family members have made about breeding, is to try and educate family and friends about what it takes to really breed a healthy, well balanced dog. The more you read on here, the more you will understand. It's heartbreaking when someone shares that their baby has a genetic health issue. Stick around long enough and you'll begin to see why we tend to get a bit 'passionate' about breeding. Many of us work with rescue and there are so many unwanted dogs out there. I've come to understand that the only reason to breed a dog is to better the breed in not only conformation, but in health and temperament. If you are going to be doing that you will be in the show ring. Those that are not breeding with bettering the breed in mind, are really only helping to add to the population of unwanted dogs. I know in the area I live, it is really challenging to try to educate people on why you should go to a responsible breeder. The minute I even mention 'show ring', I see a wall go up and they can't get the words out fast enough, "I don't want a show dog, I just want a pet". They don't realize that not every litter will produce a show potential and so the breeder needs to find pet homes for the rest. And sadly, they don't realize that what they are paying for pet store dogs and even from puppy mills and some byb's is about the same if not more then they would from a reputable show breeder.

Most little girls are able to safely be spayed at 6 months. Your vet will tell you when the earliest is you can spay Violet. IF she should happen to come in heat before you get her spayed, don't let her around any male dogs. Persistent is not even beginning to describe how they can be if wanting to get to a female in heat. Even reputable breeders have shared stories of males going to heroics in climbing more then one gate to try and get to a female in heat.


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## Orla

Sorry if you felt my comments were rude - but I would just hate for your little girl to have any health problems and for you not to be prepared that it might happen.

My parents were stung by a BYB when getting our first dog, Amber, she is not a maltese but she is 8 now and no problems at all - she is one of the healthiest dogs I know!
I hope your Violet will be the same


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## VioletVera

Lacie's Mom said:


> Vera -- I know that we all feel upset about how Violet's mom came to have puppies -- but that has nothing to do with you. You are providing a wonderful, loving home to Violete and that's what's important.
> 
> I can tell how much you love her and know that she has a wonderful "furever" home.
> 
> My Lacie weighs 5 1/2 - 6 lbs. and is from a reputable show breeder. My Tilly isn't from a reputable breeder and weighs 11 lbs. They're both beautiful in my eyes and I adore both of them equally.
> 
> I think it's wonderful that you've come to SM to learn more about Maltese and also to share Violet with her SM Awnties. Please post more picture when you can.


Lacie's Mom, thank you SO much for your comments, I really did get teary when I read it. I KNOW Violet didn't come into this world under the best of circumstances, but she is here now and I'm proud to be her mom. I know she loves me too, she whines, cries and squeaky barks if I leave her in a room alone and she will follow me and hang out in the same room that I'm in... velcro dog as I've heard people refer to their clingy doggies, LOL. It's fine by me, she keeps me company while I work from home.

And speaking of working, I should probably get back to it as I've spent way too much time on here today, I'm fast learning it's easy to get yourself lost in conversation and in research


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## bellaratamaltese

VioletVera said:


> Thanks to both of you for your support. I must admit, I was pretty upset being attacked like that. "Sorry" for not having a perfectly pedigreed best in show dog. In hindsight, maybe adopting Violet from a "backyard breeder" as my friend was called may not have been the best thing after doing more reading here on this forum, but why make me feel so bad about about opening my home and my heart to Violet? She's a living, breathing being, sweet and funny, and I love her anyway.


I had actually written my response before i saw you posted yours about feeling 'attacked'. I don't think amby's mom meant it as harshly as it came out but if it had been me, I knew i would have felt defensive. 

My first maltese came from a show breeder but not because I did things the smart way and did research - it was only because the malti-poo i wanted at the pet store was already reserved and I wanted a little dog. At the time, i was clueless about where and who I should be buying from. I lucked out and got a beautiful puppy that I didn't even know how nice she really was for months. Fast forward 4 years and my 11 year old daughter is taking our first malt to Westminster in feb, so it definitely worked out well. 

Thank you for being the responsible pet owner that you are!


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## Orla

bellaratamaltese said:


> I had actually written my response before i saw you posted yours about feeling 'attacked'. I don't think amby's mom meant it as harshly as it came out but if it had been me, I knew i would have felt defensive.


Sorry:blush:

I am a little hot headed at times:blush:


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## bellaratamaltese

amby said:


> Sorry:blush:
> 
> I am a little hot headed at times:blush:


LOL! I completely understand! now if it was the breeder of this pup on here, I think we'd be justified to do some 'harsh' education :thumbsup:


----------



## Ladysmom

VioletVera said:


> amby, I'm usually a very kind person and I don't want to start a war on this forum, but I thought your comments were rude. My puppy is healthy, sweet and the (second) love of my life. I came on this forum to find out more information about the care of my dog from those who have had experience, not to be criticized about where or how I acquired my dog. There are PLENTY of people on here (as I've read) who have rescued Malts. They do not know their blood lines do they? Do you criticize them too?


I am one of those members who has a rescued Maltese with unknown bloodlines. I love my Lady with all my heart, but I would never wish the health issues she has on anyone. She was perfectly healthy until she was four years old. She was then diagnosed with epilepsy, 1.5 years later, diabetes, 1.5 years after that hypothyroidism, inflammatory arthritis and allergies. We now battle KCS (dry eye) and constant infections due to her compromised immune system. I spend *a minimum *of $5,000 a year on her prescriptions, diabetic supplies, basic checkups/blood panels to monitor her conditions, etc. We have at least one emergency/unplanned illness a year that generally runs another $1,000.

I tell Lady's story at every opportunity. Everyone who gets a poorly bred Maltese, whether purchased or rescued, should be aware of the high risk of heath problems in the future and be prepared financially.


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## Orla

VioletVera said:


> amby, I'm usually a very kind person and I don't want to start a war on this forum, but I thought your comments were rude. My puppy is healthy, sweet and the (second) love of my life. I came on this forum to find out more information about the care of my dog from those who have had experience, not to be criticized about where or how I acquired my dog. There are PLENTY of people on here (as I've read) who have rescued Malts. They do not know their blood lines do they? Do you criticize them too?


I just read your part about the rescue now - I have a rescue myself!
IMO - its totally different to getting a dog from a mill/BYB - same kind of dog but a totally different situation.


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## k/c mom

amby said:


> Sorry:blush:
> 
> I am a little hot headed at times:blush:


^ Me, too! Especially on certain issues that come up around here!!

To the OP ... As I mentioned in my post, a lot of us have less than well-bred Maltese. My Kallie is also the product of two pet-store Malts. A nice lady had bred her two pets and I didn't have a clue that this was not a good thing to do!! I thought I was doing the right thing by notw buying from a pet store!! :brownbag: Yet, Kallie, who is now 8+ years' old has not had any health issues and has the most fabulous personality. She is so smart that I have a hard time staying one step ahead of her. She's like a human sometimes!!!

If you stay active here on SM, you will see lots of info about responsible breeding. I have learned so much here and I hope you will, too.


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## pammy4501

If it were me, I just wouldn't waste a whole lot of time worring about it. She is here with you, and you can't change it anyway...so just love her! Many of us here have at least one malt that is probably not the pinnacle of breeding. But we all learn here on this site. I hope your friend has had her two spayed and neutered though. Sure would hate to have another "accidental" breeding. You should get her to join here and learn about this breed too!

Oh, and BTW...Violet is a cutie patootie!!

:Welcome 2::Cute Malt:


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## pammy4501

amby said:


> The possible heath issues are nothing to do with the dams age - its to do with awful, puppy mill breeding!!
> No tests done so god only knows what has been passed on.
> 
> Not getting dogs spayed/neutered because of financial problems is stupid - don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as!
> 
> I'm not sure you understand good and bad breeding.


I'm going to go way out on a limb here. I think it is way to simplistic to say *"don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as!"* There are many many people in this world. Not everyone is as privileged as the members here. There are also millions of dogs that need homes. Not all of them will be as spoiled and pampered as our dogs. Some will eat only table scraps, or grocery store food (the horror). Just because you can't afford alot, dosen't mean you should be denied the pleasure of dog ownership. To the contrary, I think that dogs can enhance the lives of those who may have less. And even a poor home is a better home that a shelter or the streets. As far as allowing dogs to breed, I really think this is a matter of education. There are low cost altrenatives out there for everyone. You just need to know that's the right thing to do. And as for good breeding vs bad breeding, well....that goes for people too.


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## uniquelovdolce

:goodpost:


pammy4501 said:


> I'm going to go way out on a limb here. I think it is way to simplistic to say *"don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as!"* There are many many people in this world. Not everyone is as privileged as the members here. There are also millions of dogs that need homes. Not all of them will be as spoiled and pampered as our dogs. Some will eat only table scraps, or grocery store food (the horror). Just because you can't afford alot, dosen't mean you should be denied the pleasure of dog ownership. To the contrary, I think that dogs can enhance the lives of those who have less. And even a poor home is a better home that a shelter or the streets. As far as breeding I really think this is a matter of education. There are low cost altrenatives out there for everyone. You just need to know that's the right thing to do. And as for good breeding vs bad breeding, well....that goes for people too.


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## Dora's Mom

My little girl Dora was 5 pounds at 13 weeks old and she is now 10 pounds full grown.  She still looks tiny compared to everything except a chihuahua and is still easy to pick up. Think of her as newborn baby sized. :thumbsup:


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## Bailey&Me

I agree with what others have said - what matters now is that Violet is at her foever home and you are being a wonderful Mommy to her. Yes, OF COURSE the way she came in to the world was NOT ideal :smilie_tischkante: but now that she's here, she needs a home...and you are giving her a fabulous one :aktion033: 

If I were you, I would really try to convince Theresa to get her dogs spayed and neutered. Okay so she was lucky this time..she found a great forever home for Violet...but what about the other five puppies? Does she know for a fact that none of them will end up in a shelter or worse...what about the next litter of puppies and the next...and what about the puppies Violet's siblings could be having a few months down the road? I know it's not an easy task but please do try speaking with her, and with your cousin as well, and maybe send them some articles and info about spaying and neutering. 

What Crystal said in her post is SO true: "The thing that will be difficult for you considering some of the comments you've shared that family members have made about breeding, is to try and educate family and friends about what it takes to really breed a healthy, well balanced dog."
It is SO frustrating dealing with friends and family member that just dont have a clue when it comes to this stuff...I once got in to a very heated argument with a relative of mine who thought neutering pets was "cruel". That set me OFF, as you can imagine. 

Again, Violet really is an adorable little girl...congratulations on having her join your family, and great job on being such a wonderful Mommy! :aktion033:


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## Orla

pammy4501 said:


> I'm going to go way out on a limb here. I think it is way to simplistic to say *"don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as!"* There are many many people in this world. Not everyone is as privileged as the members here. There are also millions of dogs that need homes. Not all of them will be as spoiled and pampered as our dogs. Some will eat only table scraps, or grocery store food (the horror). Just because you can't afford alot, dosen't mean you should be denied the pleasure of dog ownership. To the contrary, I think that dogs can enhance the lives of those who may have less. And even a poor home is a better home that a shelter or the streets. As far as allowing dogs to breed, I really think this is a matter of education. There are low cost altrenatives out there for everyone. You just need to know that's the right thing to do. And as for good breeding vs bad breeding, well....that goes for people too.


a lot of dogs end up abandoned and in shelters because they're owners can't afford them.
My friend has a bichon who was abandoned at 10 months old because he needed surgery on his back legs - the owner couldn't afford it - they shouldn't have gotten the puppy in the first place.


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## Ladysmom

pammy4501 said:


> I'm going to go way out on a limb here. I think it is way to simplistic to say *"don't get dogs if you can't afford them! simple as!"* There are many many people in this world. Not everyone is as privileged as the members here. There are also millions of dogs that need homes. Not all of them will be as spoiled and pampered as our dogs. Some will eat only table scraps, or grocery store food (the horror). Just because you can't afford alot, dosen't mean you should be denied the pleasure of dog ownership. To the contrary, I think that dogs can enhance the lives of those who may have less. And even a poor home is a better home that a shelter or the streets. As far as allowing dogs to breed, I really think this is a matter of education. There are low cost altrenatives out there for everyone. You just need to know that's the right thing to do. And as for good breeding vs bad breeding, well....that goes for people too.





amby said:


> a lot of dogs end up abandoned and in shelters because they're owners can't afford them.
> My friend has a bichon who was abandoned at 10 months old because he needed surgery on his back legs - the owner couldn't afford it - they shouldn't have gotten the puppy in the first place.


Sadly, Amby is right. I see this time and time again on another forum I belong to, people getting Yorkies from pet shops and BYB's and not having the money for expensive tests and surgery for genetic conditions like liver shunts, AAI, etc. 

I have a few friends involved in Yorkie rescue who are inundated with the number of dogs being turned in because their owners can't afford their medical treatment.


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## lovemylittleguy

I feel before having a pet you should be set emotionally and financially to take care of their needs... if something occurs with their health... god willing it doesnt..you can be there with your baby and not abandon them because you dont have the finacial means when they need you the most.


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## CrystalAndZoe

Unfortunately, the future is unpredictable. You may have a great job, steady income and then bam, one day you are layed off, or the company you work for files for bankruptcy, etc... So many reasons why people are in now, or can find themselves in the future, a bad financial place. So you just never know. There are no guarantees in life.

Honestly, I think many well meaning members here on SM make getting a Maltese much too difficult. There are so many benefits for us humans having a warm, loving, cuddly ball of fluff to love and care for. To deny someone this when it could be exactly what they need is a bit, shall we say, inhumane? And what Pam said is very true. With the # of unwanted and abandoned dogs, they are much better off in a loving home that feeds them grocery store kibble, may have a very difficult time funding an expensive surgery, but still keeps up with their well visits. If everyone waited until they could afford to have a human child, there would be very few children being born. (Hmmmm....maybe not such a bad thing! lol) And how many families can have a full time stay at home parent? If our children are ok, then so will our fluffs.

I've been pretty quiet about this but I feel I can't any longer. Just because someone works a full time job or is in a lower income bracket level does not mean they would not be a wonderful mommy or daddy to one of these fluffs. Most households, regardless if there is one or two adults in the house, work full time. If only those who stayed at home and had an income bracket level of over a certain dollar amount were allowed to have one of these precious creatures, there would be way too many well bred Maltese from reputable show breeders who would not have homes. I'm so very thankful that reputable show breeders are not as strict in their views of who would be a great forever home for one of their puppies.

I think it's a great thing to bring potential emg's and the expense to someone's attention when they are thinking about getting a dog, and even to suggest a savings account for emg's. But again, they may need to use that emg. fund to live and keep a house during bad economic times. And how many of those who are being so vocal about having the finances for potential surgeries have ever found themselves in a place where they didn't have the finances? I'm thinking there are probably a few.


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## pammy4501

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Unfortunately, the future is unpredictable. You may have a great job, steady income and then bam, one day you are layed off, or the company you work for files for bankruptcy, etc... So many reasons why people are in now, or can find themselves in the future, a bad financial place. So you just never know. There are no guarantees in life.
> 
> Honestly, I think many well meaning members here on SM make getting a Maltese much too difficult. There are so many benefits for us humans having a warm, loving, cuddly ball of fluff to love and care for. To deny someone this when it could be exactly what they need is a bit, shall we say, inhumane? And what Pam said is very true. With the # of unwanted and abandoned dogs, they are much better off in a loving home that feeds them grocery store kibble, may have a very difficult time funding an expensive surgery, but still keeps up with their well visits. If everyone waited until they could afford to have a human child, there would be very few children being born. (Hmmmm....maybe not such a bad thing! lol) And how many families can have a full time stay at home parent? If our children are ok, then so will our fluffs.
> 
> I've been pretty quite about this but I feel I can't any longer. Just because someone works a full time job or is in a lower income bracket level does not mean they would not be a wonderful mommy or daddy to one of these fluffs. Most households, regardless if there is one or two adults in the house, work full time. If only those who stayed at home and had an income bracket level of over a certain dollar amount were allowed to have one of these precious creatures, there would be way too many well bred Maltese from reputable show breeders who would not have homes. I'm so very thankful that reputable show breeders are not as strict in their views of who would be a great forever home for one of their puppies.
> 
> I think it's a great thing to bring potential emg's and the expense to someone's attention when they are thinking about getting a dog, and even to suggest a savings account for emg's. But again, they may need to use that emg. fund to live and keep a house during bad economic times. And how many of those who are being so vocal about having the finances for potential surgeries have ever found themselves in a place where they didn't have the finances? I'm thinking there are probably a few.


:goodpost:
This is exactly what I am talking about. Not everthing in life is perfect. There are NO perfect dog owners. I completely agree with Crystal. There are many many people who would make great dog owners that work all day, have a tight budget etc. Who says that if you can't get a dog from a top tier breeder that you shouldn't have a dog. Adopt a darn dog! And it is true that the healthcare can be daunting, and I too have a dog that is costingme an arm and a leg in vet bills. And I have given this a lot of thought. What if I had gotten her at a time in my life when I did not have the dispoable income I am lucky enough to enjoy? Well, we would have done the best we could have. Not every sick dog gets top vet care. Sometimes you do the best you can, and nature takes it's course. Is a shorter life in a loving home better than no home at all? I mean I see people everyday that have no healthcare for themeselves and end up waiting until they are next to dead to seek medical assistance. I got my Lola at a low point in my life. I was going through some very tough family problems. She lifted my spirits so much, she was like amiracle to me. I really think that a dog is an enhancement to life. There is a homeless man I see frequently wandering near the hospital where I work, and he has a dog! Neither of them have a home. He and that dog are devoted to each other. I am glad he has his dog.


----------



## Ladysmom

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Unfortunately, the future is unpredictable. You may have a great job, steady income and then bam, one day you are layed off, or the company you work for files for bankruptcy, etc... So many reasons why people are in now, or can find themselves in the future, a bad financial place. So you just never know. There are no guarantees in life.
> 
> Honestly, I think many well meaning members here on SM make getting a Maltese much too difficult. There are so many benefits for us humans having a warm, loving, cuddly ball of fluff to love and care for. To deny someone this when it could be exactly what they need is a bit, shall we say, inhumane? And what Pam said is very true. With the # of unwanted and abandoned dogs, they are much better off in a loving home that feeds them grocery store kibble, may have a very difficult time funding an expensive surgery, but still keeps up with their well visits. If everyone waited until they could afford to have a human child, there would be very few children being born. (Hmmmm....maybe not such a bad thing! lol) And how many families can have a full time stay at home parent? If our children are ok, then so will our fluffs.
> 
> I've been pretty quite about this but I feel I can't any longer. Just because someone works a full time job or is in a lower income bracket level does not mean they would not be a wonderful mommy or daddy to one of these fluffs. Most households, regardless if there is one or two adults in the house, work full time. If only those who stayed at home and had an income bracket level of over a certain dollar amount were allowed to have one of these precious creatures, there would be way too many well bred Maltese from reputable show breeders who would not have homes. I'm so very thankful that reputable show breeders are not as strict in their views of who would be a great forever home for one of their puppies.
> 
> I think it's a great thing to bring potential emg's and the expense to someone's attention when they are thinking about getting a dog, and even to suggest a savings account for emg's. But again, they may need to use that emg. fund to live and keep a house during bad economic times. And how many of those who are being so vocal about having the finances for potential surgeries have ever found themselves in a place where they didn't have the finances? I'm thinking there are probably a few.


I think perhaps your misunderstood my post, Crystal. I was referring to people who buy puppies from BYB's or pet stores and can't afford their medical expenses right out of the gate, not people who have life changes or emergencies later on. Of course no one can predict losing a job, having a personal health problem, etc.

Orly and I are referring to Violet's breeder who bought two puppies from the pet store, but didn't have the money to spay and neuter them. That is irresponsible IMO, especially when you let the dogs breed.


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## lovemylittleguy

:blink:


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## beckinwolf

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Unfortunately, the future is unpredictable. You may have a great job, steady income and then bam, one day you are layed off, or the company you work for files for bankruptcy, etc... So many reasons why people are in now, or can find themselves in the future, a bad financial place. So you just never know. There are no guarantees in life.
> 
> Honestly, I think many well meaning members here on SM make getting a Maltese much too difficult. There are so many benefits for us humans having a warm, loving, cuddly ball of fluff to love and care for. To deny someone this when it could be exactly what they need is a bit, shall we say, inhumane? And what Pam said is very true. With the # of unwanted and abandoned dogs, they are much better off in a loving home that feeds them grocery store kibble, may have a very difficult time funding an expensive surgery, but still keeps up with their well visits. If everyone waited until they could afford to have a human child, there would be very few children being born. (Hmmmm....maybe not such a bad thing! lol) And how many families can have a full time stay at home parent? If our children are ok, then so will our fluffs.
> 
> I've been pretty quiet about this but I feel I can't any longer. Just because someone works a full time job or is in a lower income bracket level does not mean they would not be a wonderful mommy or daddy to one of these fluffs. Most households, regardless if there is one or two adults in the house, work full time. If only those who stayed at home and had an income bracket level of over a certain dollar amount were allowed to have one of these precious creatures, there would be way too many well bred Maltese from reputable show breeders who would not have homes. I'm so very thankful that reputable show breeders are not as strict in their views of who would be a great forever home for one of their puppies.
> 
> I think it's a great thing to bring potential emg's and the expense to someone's attention when they are thinking about getting a dog, and even to suggest a savings account for emg's. But again, they may need to use that emg. fund to live and keep a house during bad economic times. And how many of those who are being so vocal about having the finances for potential surgeries have ever found themselves in a place where they didn't have the finances? I'm thinking there are probably a few.


:goodpost: Thanks for saying what I've been thinking. :thumbsup:


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## CrystalAndZoe

Ladysmom said:


> I think perhaps your misunderstood my post, Crystal. I was referring to people who buy puppies from BYB's or pet stores and can't afford their medical expenses right out of the gate, not people who have life changes or emergencies later on. Of course no one can predict losing a job, having a personal health problem, etc.
> 
> Orly and I are referring to Violet's breeder who bought two puppies from the pet store, but didn't have the money to spay and neuter them. That is irresponsible IMO, especially when you let the dogs breed.


Yep, I agree that not having the money for known expenses is irresponsible. And I honestly think it a good thing to bring to people's attention what finances they may possibly be facing when getting a dog. 

I'm glad you clarified what you meant because honestly, it did not come across that way. Thank you.



lovemylittleguy said:


> I knew someone that thought *wow Id love to have a german shepherd* on a whim she and her husband bought one, mind you shes a full time student, and his job isnt a steady job. So they bought this pup and some food for a month or 2 and couldnt get his shots because they couldnt afford to take the lil guy to the vets. The food ran out and he needed more food, they had to wait until her husband got paid they fed him table scraps for a few weeks then had a few extra dollars andbought him some ol roy. Then they thought wow lets get another german shepherd and breed them. After a few weeks of having the 2nd pouch they went to the store and bought a raw hide for each dog ... the new dog who was previously owned by someone who didnt have the room for her, swallowed the raw hide, the pup got very sick and couldnt move .. they didnt have the money to take her to the vet, so they moved her in a garage and watched her suffer in pain. Her leg swollen and she couldnt move. I found out after a few days when she called me and begged her to seek help. I looked up a place they could bring her to no ?s asked to get her the help she needed, of couse they wouldnt be getting her back. THey had to put her to sleep, she was in horrible shape.Sorry i agree that there are ppl that are wonderful parents to a pup and are on a fixed income and their are ppl that mistreat their animals and make more then enough money..all I wish is that ppl think about what goes into having a pet, and dont just wake up one morning and say hey i want to get a dog!!


If you read my post, I'm speaking of people who do keep up with well visits and minor emg's. And certainly of those people who are able to at least feed their dogs even a low quality kibble. I did not specify but certainly do expect anyone getting a dog would make sure they have the finances for the up front known expenses such as vaccines and spay/neuter. And I should probably clarify even further that for those people who work MORE then full time or even just full time, but don't take time to spend with their fluffs in the evening or weekends ... for example coming home after work to feed and potty them and then quickly putting them back in their crate so they can go out to dinner and not get home until it's time for bed on a regular basis ... probably do not have the lifestyle conducive to having a pet. I keep forgetting that with newbies, they don't know me and what I stand for so I do need to be more specific when I post like this. Thank you.

Anyone who would knowingly allow any living creature to suffer like that should not be a caregiver for any living creature, human or non-human.


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## Snowbody

Vera - I'm sorry this turned into such a heated thread and that you felt people were rude and attacking you. I have to say that I had a problem seeing your thread. I think one of the problems for me was the title of your thread: "*Afraid my pup will be HUGE full grow. *" and "I'm just a little concerned that I'm going to have a* 12 lb monster on my hands when all I really wanted was a little 5 or 6 lb dog"* I know how much you love Violet but I was put off by your posting those statements and felt they are insulting to Violet. I don't know how you could refer to adorable Violet as a "potential 12 pound *monster*." Is that what you really would think of her if she's larger? She isn't an accessory; she's a living breathing dog. What is there to be afraid of as you said? You adore your Violet and she might be larger than standard but HUGE if she was 11 or 12 pounds. That's still a small dog. Size doesn't matter when it comes to love. If I had a child and there was something wrong with him or her or he/she was taller or fatter...I wouldn't love that child any less and could care less what other people thought. All I'd care about is that that child was happy and healthy. I have read your posts and supported you but this one struck a sour note with me. I hope that it doesn't reflect how you might feel in the future if she isn't picture perfect. None of us are and many of our pets aren't. We love them and they love us unconditionally. I know you love Violet so much. Please don't worry about things like size that are out of anyone's control.


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## momtoboo

Snowbody said:


> Vera - I'm sorry this turned into such a heated thread and that you felt people were rude and attacking you. I have to say that I had a problem seeing your thread. I think one of the problems for me was the title of your thread: "*Afraid my pup will be HUGE full grow. *" and "I'm just a little concerned that I'm going to have a* 12 lb monster on my hands when all I really wanted was a little 5 or 6 lb dog"* I know how much you love Violet but I was put off by your posting those statements and felt they are insulting to Violet. I don't know how you could refer to adorable Violet as a "potential 12 pound *monster*." Is that what you really would think of her if she's larger? She isn't an accessory; she's a living breathing dog. What is there to be afraid of as you said? You adore your Violet and she might be larger than standard but HUGE if she was 11 or 12 pounds. That's still a small dog. Size doesn't matter when it comes to love. If I had a child and there was something wrong with him or her or he/she was taller or fatter...I wouldn't love that child any less and could care less what other people thought. All I'd care about is that that child was happy and healthy. I have read your posts and supported you but this one struck a sour note with me. I hope that it doesn't reflect how you might feel in the future if she isn't picture perfect. None of us are and many of our pets aren't. We love them and they love us unconditionally. I know you love Violet so much. Please don't worry about things like size that are out of anyone's control.


I have to admit the "12 lb monster" part of your post really bothered me too, when I read it earlier. I didn't know quite what to say. As mom to 12 lb Boo,who is more precious to me than words can say, & in no way could ever be considered a monster, I found it quite upsetting. Violet is adorable & if you love her now, you'll still love her no matter what size she ends up being. She wouldn't think you're a monster if you suddenly grew a size bigger, she'd still be glad you're her mommie. Just be glad she's happy & healthy & she's your very own little princess.


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## MalteseJane

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Unfortunately, the future is unpredictable. You may have a great job, steady income and then bam, one day you are layed off, or the company you work for files for bankruptcy, etc... So many reasons why people are in now, or can find themselves in the future, a bad financial place. So you just never know. There are no guarantees in life.
> 
> Honestly, I think many well meaning members here on SM make getting a Maltese much too difficult. There are so many benefits for us humans having a warm, loving, cuddly ball of fluff to love and care for. To deny someone this when it could be exactly what they need is a bit, shall we say, inhumane? And what Pam said is very true. With the # of unwanted and abandoned dogs, they are much better off in a loving home that feeds them grocery store kibble, may have a very difficult time funding an expensive surgery, but still keeps up with their well visits. If everyone waited until they could afford to have a human child, there would be very few children being born. (Hmmmm....maybe not such a bad thing! lol) And how many families can have a full time stay at home parent? If our children are ok, then so will our fluffs.
> 
> I've been pretty quiet about this but I feel I can't any longer. Just because someone works a full time job or is in a lower income bracket level does not mean they would not be a wonderful mommy or daddy to one of these fluffs. Most households, regardless if there is one or two adults in the house, work full time. If only those who stayed at home and had an income bracket level of over a certain dollar amount were allowed to have one of these precious creatures, there would be way too many well bred Maltese from reputable show breeders who would not have homes. I'm so very thankful that reputable show breeders are not as strict in their views of who would be a great forever home for one of their puppies.
> 
> I think it's a great thing to bring potential emg's and the expense to someone's attention when they are thinking about getting a dog, and even to suggest a savings account for emg's. But again, they may need to use that emg. fund to live and keep a house during bad economic times. And how many of those who are being so vocal about having the finances for potential surgeries have ever found themselves in a place where they didn't have the finances? I'm thinking there are probably a few.


:ThankYou::goodpost:


----------



## 3Maltmom

Snowbody said:


> Vera - I'm sorry this turned into such a heated thread and that you felt people were rude and attacking you. I have to say that I had a problem seeing your thread. I think one of the problems for me was the title of your thread: "*Afraid my pup will be HUGE full grow. *" and "I'm just a little concerned that I'm going to have a* 12 lb monster on my hands when all I really wanted was a little 5 or 6 lb dog"* I know how much you love Violet but I was put off by your posting those statements and felt they are insulting to Violet. I don't know how you could refer to adorable Violet as a "potential 12 pound *monster*." Is that what you really would think of her if she's larger? She isn't an accessory; she's a living breathing dog. What is there to be afraid of as you said? You adore your Violet and she might be larger than standard but HUGE if she was 11 or 12 pounds. That's still a small dog. Size doesn't matter when it comes to love. If I had a child and there was something wrong with him or her or he/she was taller or fatter...I wouldn't love that child any less and could care less what other people thought. All I'd care about is that that child was happy and healthy. I have read your posts and supported you but this one struck a sour note with me. I hope that it doesn't reflect how you might feel in the future if she isn't picture perfect. None of us are and many of our pets aren't. We love them and they love us unconditionally. I know you love Violet so much. Please don't worry about things like size that are out of anyone's control.


Susan, Like you, I was also bothered by these comments, along with the "not wanting to show disrespect" to the friend by making mention of her poor breeding practices. I find it disrespectful, to these loving creatures, to NOT say anything. 

To the OP, I have had many dogs come thru my home. If they're big, and healthy, that's great by me. I love my big ones. Daisy and Henry were the best, they were not monsters. They were precious little angels.

And yep, I do tend to make fun of my doggies. If they're huge, they're huge. If they're stupid, they're stupid. And if they're blind, they're blind.
But you know, I've never worried about it, I love them exactly how they are. I adore them.


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## uniquelovdolce

:goodpost::good post - perfect i agree with this and pam so so much , if only ppl very well off would be able to afford their pups i wouldnt have dolce. I can guarantee u he is loved , he is well taken care off, and i would do anything in my power to take care of him as one of my children , hopefully nothing happens that i have to be tested.


Crystal&Zoe said:


> Unfortunately, the future is unpredictable. You may have a great job, steady income and then bam, one day you are layed off, or the company you work for files for bankruptcy, etc... So many reasons why people are in now, or can find themselves in the future, a bad financial place. So you just never know. There are no guarantees in life.
> 
> Honestly, I think many well meaning members here on SM make getting a Maltese much too difficult. There are so many benefits for us humans having a warm, loving, cuddly ball of fluff to love and care for. To deny someone this when it could be exactly what they need is a bit, shall we say, inhumane? And what Pam said is very true. With the # of unwanted and abandoned dogs, they are much better off in a loving home that feeds them grocery store kibble, may have a very difficult time funding an expensive surgery, but still keeps up with their well visits. If everyone waited until they could afford to have a human child, there would be very few children being born. (Hmmmm....maybe not such a bad thing! lol) And how many families can have a full time stay at home parent? If our children are ok, then so will our fluffs.
> 
> I've been pretty quiet about this but I feel I can't any longer. Just because someone works a full time job or is in a lower income bracket level does not mean they would not be a wonderful mommy or daddy to one of these fluffs. Most households, regardless if there is one or two adults in the house, work full time. If only those who stayed at home and had an income bracket level of over a certain dollar amount were allowed to have one of these precious creatures, there would be way too many well bred Maltese from reputable show breeders who would not have homes. I'm so very thankful that reputable show breeders are not as strict in their views of who would be a great forever home for one of their puppies.
> 
> I think it's a great thing to bring potential emg's and the expense to someone's attention when they are thinking about getting a dog, and even to suggest a savings account for emg's. But again, they may need to use that emg. fund to live and keep a house during bad economic times. And how many of those who are being so vocal about having the finances for potential surgeries have ever found themselves in a place where they didn't have the finances? I'm thinking there are probably a few.


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## njdrake

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Unfortunately, the future is unpredictable. You may have a great job, steady income and then bam, one day you are layed off, or the company you work for files for bankruptcy, etc... So many reasons why people are in now, or can find themselves in the future, a bad financial place. So you just never know. There are no guarantees in life.
> 
> Honestly, I think many well meaning members here on SM make getting a Maltese much too difficult. There are so many benefits for us humans having a warm, loving, cuddly ball of fluff to love and care for. To deny someone this when it could be exactly what they need is a bit, shall we say, inhumane? And what Pam said is very true. With the # of unwanted and abandoned dogs, they are much better off in a loving home that feeds them grocery store kibble, may have a very difficult time funding an expensive surgery, but still keeps up with their well visits. If everyone waited until they could afford to have a human child, there would be very few children being born. (Hmmmm....maybe not such a bad thing! lol) And how many families can have a full time stay at home parent? If our children are ok, then so will our fluffs.
> 
> I've been pretty quiet about this but I feel I can't any longer. Just because someone works a full time job or is in a lower income bracket level does not mean they would not be a wonderful mommy or daddy to one of these fluffs. Most households, regardless if there is one or two adults in the house, work full time. If only those who stayed at home and had an income bracket level of over a certain dollar amount were allowed to have one of these precious creatures, there would be way too many well bred Maltese from reputable show breeders who would not have homes. I'm so very thankful that reputable show breeders are not as strict in their views of who would be a great forever home for one of their puppies.
> 
> I think it's a great thing to bring potential emg's and the expense to someone's attention when they are thinking about getting a dog, and even to suggest a savings account for emg's. But again, they may need to use that emg. fund to live and keep a house during bad economic times. And how many of those who are being so vocal about having the finances for potential surgeries have ever found themselves in a place where they didn't have the finances? I'm thinking there are probably a few.


:goodpost:


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## edelweiss

I come from a family of 11 children---all same parents! When I was growing up we were honestly "poor" in terms of cash! But we always had dogs---lots of them. I can't remember not having at least one dog & usually more. Also we were allowed to have baby rabbits, etc. esp. if they were w/out parents or take care of them until they could be set back into the wild. My mom would help us keep them alive. We had a pet racoon---very bright! and we had a pet owl---but ALWAYS dogs. Could we afford them? I don't know, probably not. I think we always took care of them and loved them. I am certain it was this heritage that fostered my love for animals. 
There is never a good time to get married, pay taxes, have children or die---but most of us do most of those things at some point in life. As someone has already said "life isn't perfect." We do the very best we can w/the knowledge that we acquire and that is about all God asks of us.


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## poochie2

My malt is 12 pounds and should be around the 9-10 pound mark. When I firs got her I was told she would be 6 pounds.
Weight should not be an issue. I refer my 12 pound  malt to a cuddly fluffy teddy bear NOT a potential 12 pound monster.


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## Bailey&Me

I honestly don't think the OP meant her initial post the way that it may have come off. I have to admit, when I first read the post I also felt the same way as Susan, Sue and Deb. BUT, keeping in mind that the OP is brand new to SM and a brand new dog mommy, I don't think she meant it the way it sounded at all. Of course, most of us on here are extremely passionate about our dogs and well-versed in pup-related matters, but it took time and experience for us to get here, right? The OP is a first time dog owner with lots of questions and concerns. Her choice of words might have sounded a bit harsh to some but I really don't think she literally meant that she will regard Violet as a "monster" if she gets bigger...just her way of asking for our input on size. I think she is just new to the "dog world" and is learning...

With that said, my dog Bailey is 11 pounds - he's not a Maltese, but a poodle mixed with who knows what. I LOVE his size - I think it's perfect and that HE is perfect in every single way, no matter what faults he may have (although I can't find one for the life of me!). When I get my maltese, I would love it if he/she were on the bigger side of the standard...to me, they're sturdier and easier to care for if they're not tiny.


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## jpupart

I agree, I think maybe the terminology used calling your big girl a potential "monster" was not seen by many of us as very endearing. I got Mindy when she was about 4 months old as a rescued maltese/yorkie mix. The vet thought she would be about 8 pounds full grown based on her size then- she is now closer to 15 pounds!!!!! I would never,ever call her a monster. I jokingly refer to her as my "plus sized model' or just that she is "big boned' but I adore Mindy and would never,ever think of her as a monster.

On the other hand I have been a member of the Havanese Forum for several years and have seen many new members "jumped on" for asking questions.Many we never see again-some stick it out. Everyone has to start somewhere and many, if not most ,of the average population don't realize the difference in backyard breeders, puppymills, etc. They think if they don't buy it in a pet store they are doing well. And look at the websites of some of these shady breeders- they are enough to fool most people!!! 

I think after reading more of your posts you actually do love your Violette and it was just an unfortunate choice of words to use in your first post. But understand that most people here are passionate about their dogs and no matter their size or what they look like -we would never think of them as monsters and we would be wary of anyone who would call their dog one.

edited to add I think I was posting at the same time as Bailey's Mom


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## lovemylittleguy

QUOTE=jpupart;1819803]I agree, I think maybe the terminology used calling your big girl a potential "monster" was not seen by many of us as very endearing. I got Mindy when she was about 4 months old as a rescued maltese/yorkie mix. The vet thought she would be about 8 pounds full grown based on her size then- she is now closer to 15 pounds!!!!! I would never,ever call her a monster. I jokingly refer to her as my "plus sized model' or just that she is "big boned' but I adore Mindy and would never,ever think of her as a monster.

On the other hand I have been a member of the Havanese Forum for several years and have seen many new members "jumped on" for asking questions.Many we never see again-some stick it out. Everyone has to start somewhere and many, if not most ,of the average population don't realize the difference in backyard breeders, puppymills, etc. They think if they don't buy it in a pet store they are doing well. And look at the websites of some of these shady breeders- they are enough to fool most people!!! 

I think after reading more of your posts you actually do love your Violette and it was just an unfortunate choice of words to use in your first post. But understand that most people here are passionate about their dogs and no matter their size or what they look like -we would never think of them as monsters and we would be wary of anyone who would call their dog one.

edited to add I think I was posting at the same time as Bailey's Mom[/QUOTE]
:goodpost:
Im new to the forum and Im not sure what a backyard breeder is. From what Ive read on this topic.. a backyard breeder is someone who doesnt breed as a profession? This is also my first pet, we have had Jasper for a year and a half, so please dont jump down my throat for not knowing what a back yard breeder is .


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## jpupart

A back yard breeder is a hobby breeder who just breeds indiscriminately. They rarely,if ever, do health testing and they are not breeding to keep to the "standard". They may even love their dogs and not think they are doing anything wrong, but they can be passing on health problems and poor traits and they don't require spay/neuter contracts like the ethical show breeders require of pet puppies they sell, so it just contributes to the problem.
No jumping on you here 
It's a good question


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## Orla

:goodpost:
Im new to the forum and Im not sure what a backyard breeder is. From what Ive read on this topic.. a backyard breeder is someone who doesnt breed as a profession? This is also my first pet, we have had Jasper for a year and a half, so please dont jump down my throat for not knowing what a back yard breeder is .[/QUOTE]

Thats actually what a back yard breeder is - someone who breeds just for money - breeding from dogs who shouldn't be bred from, they don't do any tests.

A reputable breeder does not breed for money - they show their dogs, do tests and only breeds for new show pups.


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## Ladysmom

This is a good comparison between a backyard breeder and a responsible breeder:

Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder


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## lovemylittleguy

Thank you. Now when I read about BYB I wont question what a byb is.


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## VioletVera

I spent WAY too much time on here yesterday- and paid for it with a lot of work being done late into last night and working from 7:30 this morning. While eating my lunch, I came back to check the posts on this thread and I have to say WOW... yes, I never expected such a heated discussion to arise from my curiosity over how large my puppy might get. 
:forgive me:
First I need to clear up something... the word "monster" being used in my original post wasn't meant to be malicious, more endearing in my eyes, and I guess looking back, was actually a poor choice of a word. I have a kooky sense of humor (not that you can actually tell from my posts) and when I think of a monster, I think of ones like Cookie Monster, Grover, and Elmo... yeah, Sesame Street characters, LOL. They are ALL loveable, aren't they? And yes, being a "newbie" and first time dog owner, I was under the impression that Maltese dogs grow up to be no more than 7 lbs, 8 lbs TOPS, and after looking at that chart, I thought maybe Violet was some genetic mutant (again, MUTANT being affectionate, like the X-Men, not malicious, don't want to be attacked for using that word either). Not knowing that some Maltese DO grow to be 12 lbs, I was worried that she was the only "plus sized gal" of the Maltese world, and again, not knowing that many members on here do indeed have larger Malts, which is why I asked the question in the first place. I thought perhaps there might have been something wrong with her for being off the chart at 13 weeks. But thank you to the members who assured me that they can get big. Well, 12 lbs isn't THAT big, but the 2 Malts I know are only 4.5 and 6 lbs, so I thought relatively speaking, 12 was big. And will I love Violet any less if she's "plus sized"? OF COURSE NOT. I grow to love her more & more every day, especially when she does cute & funny little things to make me smile or laugh, like this morning when she brought me her tiny purple teddy bear from her crate, dropped it into my lap, and snuggled up to me and the bear, then not more than 3 minutes later, she got a burst of crazy puppy energy and ran circles around the house, only to stop occasionally to bark at her reflection in the black dishwasher. Silly little MONSTER!

And BTW, those of you who are Lady Gaga fans like I am, she refers to her fans as "my little monsters", so I guess *I* am a monster and if you are a fan of hers, you are a monster too.  I DOUBT she means it maliciously- sounds affectionate actually! She was a misfit growing up and so was I to a certain degree, being the "good student" and the "good artist" and being a horror movie fan... I love monsters and misfits. And if Violet is one too, all the more reason for me to love her.

Then there's all the back & forth about the breeders... I was pretty taken aback by the large number of comments. I'd like nothing more than to reply to each and every one of you personally, but again, it's easy to lose a lot of time on this forum so I'm just going to make some general comments. Yes, life happens. Yes, people may be "irresponsible" in not getting their dogs spayed or neutered. (I plan to bring Violet to the vet for her 6 mo birthday). Yes, I didn't know a lot about "good breeding vs. bad breeding", but why do you think I've already spent so much time on SM? Yes, to LEARN about being the best dog owner I can be. "Simple as."

To the member who asked about the other puppies- they all have found loving homes. My friend Tess took one (she lives in Westchester, married to a pilot and has a good work from home job, and a 16 year old daughter, so Cody will be REALLY spoiled, actually, I think he already is!), her mom took another (lives in FL, retired, and is already spoiling Fiji according to Tess), and the others went to 3 of Theresa's friends. I have become "friends" with them on Facebook, and they ALL look very well cared for. And IF you're wondering, Theresa would not take a PENNY for any of the puppies, she only wanted to see them go to good loving homes. To call her a backyard breeder is somewhat unfair if she wasn't doing it for profit, don't you think? It was an accident that the puppies came into this world to begin with, and Theresa may be a little "uneducated" in Maltese care and spaying timing, but the woman is BUSY... a full time working mom trying to support 3 kids on her own after her husband's sudden departure isn't easy as I'm sure some of you may understand.

Yes, life happens and it's not always perfect. If the world were to be perfect, it'd be a pretty boring place! I think animals enrich our lives, and I am lucky enough to now own one. I never had dogs or cats growing up as a kid because my dad was allergic (who knew a "hypoallergenic" dog breed existed back in the 70's? If my dad did know, he certainly didn't tell ME!) but thank GOD for Maltese, because "Grandpa and Grandma" now occasionally doggie sit for me without my dad's allergies acting up. And my dad LOVES Violet, he answered the door on Saturday with her in his arms... awwwww...

Anyway, the debate on good vs. bad breeders can go on and on, but the bottom line is: Violet is here, she's loved, and extremely well taken care of. Now I know why this forum is called SPOILED Maltese!

I'm sure there were some other posts I wanted to comment on, but man, I'm mentally tired! Thank you to those who wholeheartedly supported me and welcomed me here and called me a good mommy :wub:


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## Orla

VioletVera said:


> I
> To the member who asked about the other puppies- they all have found loving homes. My friend Tess took one (she lives in Westchester, married to a pilot and has a good work from home job, and a 16 year old daughter, so Cody will be REALLY spoiled, actually, I think he already is!), her mom took another (lives in FL, retired, and is already spoiling Fiji according to Tess), and the others went to 3 of Theresa's friends. I have become "friends" with them on Facebook, and they ALL look very well cared for. And IF you're wondering, Theresa would not take a PENNY for any of the puppies, she only wanted to see them go to good loving homes. *To call her a backyard breeder is somewhat unfair if she wasn't doing it for profit, don't you think?* It was an accident that the puppies came into this world to begin with, and Theresa may be a little "uneducated" in Maltese care and spaying timing, but the woman is BUSY... a full time working mom trying to support 3 kids on her own after her husband's sudden departure isn't easy as I'm sure some of you may understand.


Nope, not unfair at all - I'm sorry but she is a BYB.

But you are doing a great job with Violet so thats all that matters now - whats done is done.


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## uniquelovdolce

u have a cute little monster , or should i say big monster lol ( I love lady gaga too ) .. and im happy she is well taken care off ...


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## Snowbody

Vera - As I said in my post about objecting to your terminology was that I knew you were a loving owner and I am even more sure that's true after your last post. I was honest about how your post struck me and as you know, on the internet we can't tell people's inflections or senses of humor until we get to know them pretty well. Lots of us on SM have really good senses of humor, but it was hard to tell on your OP, so I took it for face value. BTW, I'm a little old to know Gaga's terminology but I like her music.  
I'm happy that you stayed with us and answered our points and hope that we can all share info, stories and photos together. I think that Violet sounds adorable, smart and funny and can't wait to see her grow...and grow. LOL (Sense of humor here:HistericalSmiley My guy is just under 5 lbs. and just today I was wishing he was bigger and would jump in and out of the car to get up to his car seat instead of me having to pick him up all the time. I remarked to my DH that my Yorkie used to have not trouble...he was about 10 lbs
Before I came to SM I didn't know the difference between a BYB, a pet store and a reputable breeder. My lucky fortune was that I found SM _before _I got Tyler. But we know that's not the case with many who come here and we really do embrace all our pets and owners. We're trying to help educate others and put an end to pet abuse of puppy mills and the ever burgeoning numbers of dogs that end up in shelters. The only way to do that is if people don't keep perpetuating bad practices. We don't want to see dogs lose their lives to keep disreputable breeders in business. Most of the members here are so passionate about our breed and have some of the biggest hearts you can ever imagine and go out of their ways to help other members in so many ways.
Vera - I really hope we all understand each other better and do hope that you'll be an active member here. And, yes, it does eat up a lot of time...especially after you know more members. Love to see more pix of Violet.


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## majik921

I know in Seattle and surrounding areas there are travelling vets who do the spaying/neutering at either really low cost or for free on certain days of the month. It's irresponsible just to cut corners on things like spaying and neutering and it's too bad your friends don't know this, hopefully you can let them know. 

There's a great pinned article about BYBs that is definitely worth the read or just google back yard breeders. It helps to be knowledgable, especially because sometimes we are our pet's only voice. 

And as far as I know 5-6 months is when the dog can be spayed but that's just what my breeder and vet recommended for my fluff.


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## pammy4501

lovemylittleguy said:


> I knew someone that thought *wow Id love to have a german shepherd* on a whim she and her husband bought one, mind you shes a full time student, and his job isnt a steady job. So they bought this pup and some food for a month or 2 and couldnt get his shots because they couldnt afford to take the lil guy to the vets. The food ran out and he needed more food, they had to wait until her husband got paid they fed him table scraps for a few weeks then had a few extra dollars andbought him some ol roy. Then they thought wow lets get another german shepherd and breed them. After a few weeks of having the 2nd pouch they went to the store and bought a raw hide for each dog ... the new dog who was previously owned by someone who didnt have the room for her, swallowed the raw hide, the pup got very sick and couldnt move .. they didnt have the money to take her to the vet, so they moved her in a garage and watched her suffer in pain. Her leg swollen and she couldnt move. I found out after a few days when she called me and begged her to seek help. I looked up a place they could bring her to no ?s asked to get her the help she needed, of couse they wouldnt be getting her back. THey had to put her to sleep, she was in horrible shape.Sorry i agree that there are ppl that are wonderful parents to a pup and are on a fixed income and their are ppl that mistreat their animals and make more then enough money..all I wish is that ppl think about what goes into having a pet, and dont just wake up one morning and say hey i want to get a dog!!


 I wasn't talking about stupid people, just people with less advantages in life. There is no excuse for ignorance and stupidity.:angry:


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## MaryH

Hi Vera and welcome to Spoiled Maltese. Yup, using the word "monster" to an audience that doesn't know you certainly evoked some passionate responses ... and made me think of the number of times I've referred to my gang as monsters. :w00t: But like you, when I call any one of mine a monster I really mean a rascal or a brat or some other term of endearment for a cute, fresh, sassy little dog. I don't put alot of faith in all those size and weight charts because sometimes God and genetics overrule. My first Maltese were rescues, one is 10+ lbs., one is 7+ lbs., and one was 5 lbs. As best I can tell, none of them had stellar pedigrees behind them and, thankfully, none of them had major health issues either. What makes for a good breeder, bad breeder, backyard breeder or any other kind of breeder? There are as many opinions as there are members of this forum. I may be in the minority but I don't consider your friend to be a breeder at all. She has two intact dogs, she didn't know better, a mating happened and puppies were born. She sounds like she placed them all in homes where they will be well provided for. When we know better we do better and I bet she knows that now. I wonder if all of you who got a puppy could help her out by looking for a low cost spay/neuter program in her area and each chip in a little bit of money to pay for her male to get neutered. Neutering is generally less costly than a spay and for now would go a long way toward preventing another litter. As for the opinions about financial ability and stability, money alone doesn't guarantee good physical and emotional care. Sometimes life happens and tomorrow could be very different than today. The person who is home today could be back to work tomorrow or, worse yet, could be homeless. I think it's at least as important what's in a person's heart as what's in their bank account. And I think both you and Violet hit the jackpot!


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

Vera, I welcome you and precious Violet to Spoiled Maltese.:tender: And, I think you are a terrific Mommy for Violet.

Violet is a little doll ... she is beautiful. :wub::wub:

To be honest, I took a long time to respond to your thread ... but, I am so glad that I waited. I was another member who read your introduction in the wrong way ... as far as the *monster* and your worrying about Violet becoming too big. However, I just read your heartfelt explanation post toward the end of your thread. And, with that, I now see your introduction in a different light. I can see now that you love, and will continue to love, and love Violet even more than you do today. 

Our precious fluff babies are so magical and wonderful with the joy they bring into our lives every day. The only time we aren't smiling is when our fluff babies are not feeling well ... and, worse yet, when we don't know why they are sick ... because we love them so much, and hurt along with them.

You will find so many wonderful members here on Spoiled Maltese. I have learned so much from Spoiled Maltese. I continue to learn. I consider SM my other family. We have a special and unique connection because of our fluff's. 

Big hugs for you and Violet. :tender:


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## misti9er

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Vera, I welcome you and precious Violet to Spoiled Maltese.:tender: And, I think you are a terrific Mommy for Violet.
> 
> Violet is a little doll ... she is beautiful. :wub::wub:
> 
> To be honest, I took a long time to respond to your thread ... but, I am so glad that I waited. I was another member who read your introduction in the wrong way ... as far as the *monster* and your worrying about Violet becoming too big. However, I just read your heartfelt explanation post toward the end of your thread. And, with that, I now see your introduction in a different light. I can see now that you love, and will continue to love, and love Violet even more than you do today.
> 
> Our precious fluff babies are so magical and wonderful with the joy they bring into our lives every day. The only time we aren't smiling is when our fluff babies are not feeling well ... and, worse yet, when we don't know why they are sick ... because we love them so much, and hurt along with them.
> 
> You will find so many wonderful members here on Spoiled Maltese. I have learned so much from Spoiled Maltese. I continue to learn. I consider SM my other family. We have a special and unique connection because of our fluff's.
> 
> Big hugs for you and Violet. :tender:


:goodpost:


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## misti9er

:Welcome 3:


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## glamourdog

I'm coming into this post very late, so I havn't read all the responses, but as a general rule of thumb, Maltese at 12 weeks are going to be ~about 2.5 X that weight as an adult. 

So 4.5lbs at 13 you figure 4.2 at 12 weeks, so 10lbs-11lbs is a good estimate for adult weight. 

It's not an exact science but I've found it VERY close over the years. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who were "told" by their breeder there maltese/chihuahua/yorkie/pom was "not going to get much bigger" or would only be X lbs, when there was no chance that was going to happen. 

My guess is that a breeder with a maltese they know is going to be 8.5 lbs will have a hard time selling it for $500, but if they "say" the same dog is going to be 4.5lbs they will have 3-5 people lined up to pay them $1000-$1500 for the puppy.

Just my experience, but I deal with this stiuation at least once a week, every week.


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## CrystalAndZoe

VioletVera said:


> To call her a backyard breeder is somewhat unfair if she wasn't doing it for profit, don't you think? It was an accident that the puppies came into this world to begin with, and Theresa may be a little "uneducated" in Maltese care and spaying timing, but the woman is BUSY... a full time working mom trying to support 3 kids on her own after her husband's sudden departure isn't easy as I'm sure some of you may understand.





amby said:


> Nope, not unfair at all - I'm sorry but she is a BYB.
> 
> But you are doing a great job with Violet so thats all that matters now - whats done is done.


The only way she would really be considered a BYB in my eyes is if #1, she had planned on having puppies by getting a male and a female and #2, if she _*continues*_ to have puppies.

It sounds like this is just a case of not knowing any better and an 'oops' happened. Hopefully all of you who got a lovable little fluff to enrich their lives might help by chipping in towards their spay and neuter as a 'thank you' for the gift of a precious baby to love and be loved by. :thumbsup:



MaryH said:


> Hi Vera and welcome to Spoiled Maltese. Yup, using the word "monster" to an audience that doesn't know you certainly evoked some passionate responses ... and made me think of the number of times I've referred to my gang as monsters. :w00t: But like you, when I call any one of mine a monster I really mean a rascal or a brat or some other term of endearment for a cute, fresh, sassy little dog. I don't put alot of faith in all those size and weight charts because sometimes God and genetics overrule. My first Maltese were rescues, one is 10+ lbs., one is 7+ lbs., and one was 5 lbs. As best I can tell, none of them had stellar pedigrees behind them and, thankfully, none of them had major health issues either. What makes for a good breeder, bad breeder, backyard breeder or any other kind of breeder? There are as many opinions as there are members of this forum. I may be in the minority but I don't consider your friend to be a breeder at all. She has two intact dogs, she didn't know better, a mating happened and puppies were born. She sounds like she placed them all in homes where they will be well provided for. When we know better we do better and I bet she knows that now. I wonder if all of you who got a puppy could help her out by looking for a low cost spay/neuter program in her area and each chip in a little bit of money to pay for her male to get neutered. Neutering is generally less costly than a spay and for now would go a long way toward preventing another litter. As for the opinions about financial ability and stability, money alone doesn't guarantee good physical and emotional care. Sometimes life happens and tomorrow could be very different than today. The person who is home today could be back to work tomorrow or, worse yet, could be homeless. I think it's at least as important what's in a person's heart as what's in their bank account. And I think both you and Violet hit the jackpot!


Aw Mary, what a great post! It never ceases to amaze me how much more understanding and forgiving you great breeders. When I was at the dog show in Chicago and was listening to some of the breeders there in the benching area talk with people, and people would be beaming about their 'teacup' Maltese, thinking that was super impressive, the breeders there just smiled and found something nice to say. Better then I do some days when I feel it's my personal duty to educate everyone who sets foot in my store what constitutes a reputable breeder and what doesn't. :embarrassed:

btw I don't put a lot of faith in those charts either. We have way too many examples here on SM of different lines that must have forgotten to read those charts. lol



glamourdog said:


> I'm coming into this post very late, so I havn't read all the responses, but as a general rule of thumb, Maltese at 12 weeks are going to be ~about 2.5 X that weight as an adult.
> 
> So 4.5lbs at 13 you figure 4.2 at 12 weeks, so 10lbs-11lbs is a good estimate for adult weight.
> 
> It's not an exact science but I've found it VERY close over the years. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who were "told" by their breeder there maltese/chihuahua/yorkie/pom was "not going to get much bigger" or would only be X lbs, when there was no chance that was going to happen.
> 
> My guess is that a breeder with a maltese they know is going to be 8.5 lbs will have a hard time selling it for $500, but if they "say" the same dog is going to be 4.5lbs they will have 3-5 people lined up to pay them $1000-$1500 for the puppy.
> 
> Just my experience, but I deal with this stiuation at least once a week, every week.


I always feel bad when customers come in with a puppy who is between 2 and 4 months old and they are buying harnesses, clothes, etc and I mention how this should fit for about so long before they get to their adult size and they adamantly tell me the 'breeder' said they should not get much bigger then the size they already are. Boy are they going to be surprised.


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## wooflife

I tracked Izzy on a growth chart when I got her and she is pretty much right on target with her weight. We did have to go on a diet this year as she got a little (cough) heavy for size.


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## wooflife

Crystal&Zoe said:


> T
> 
> I always feel bad when customers come in with a puppy who is between 2 and 4 months old and they are buying harnesses, clothes, etc and I mention how this should fit for about so long before they get to their adult size and they adamantly tell me the 'breeder' said they should not get much bigger then the size they already are. Boy are they going to be surprised.


I remember when my stepdaughters mom got the chihuahuas we are babysitting. They were about 1.5 -2 lbs at 12 weeks and the breeder insisited they would never get bigger. I kept saying oh yes they'll grow they are puppies and they kept insisting they would not grow any larger. Now they both weigh about 6 lbs. They are wonderful, adorable, healthy dogs.


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## Jayne

I have eight maltese and three bichons here.. They range in weight from 5 lbs to 12 lbs.. The larger maltese seem to have a much wavier coat than the smaller ones, although the smaller have some wiggle to them also.. Some are rescues from puppy mills, some are pet store escapees..I don't think any came from reputable breeders.. The larger ones probably have some Bichon mixed in.. And I hear that some breeders mix them and don't tell you about it.. But, the fact is they are all special in their own way, and I believe your little girl will give you many years of love and will be your cherished little old lady one day.. No matter the size she will be very special to you through the years.. So......welcome to the group..Were glad to have you and Violet with us...

Jayne, Kayla, Kiley Kinky, Kallie, Lovey, Gucci, Keishi, Gypsy, Phoebe, Katey,and last but certainly not least,.Willie...


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## VioletVera

uniquelovdolce said:


> u have a cute little monster , or should i say big monster lol ( I love lady gaga too ) .. and im happy she is well taken care off ...


Thank you uniquelovdolce! LOL... I'm actually listening to Lady Gaga as I reply to everyone B)



Snowbody said:


> Vera - As I said in my post about objecting to your terminology was that I knew you were a loving owner and I am even more sure that's true after your last post. I was honest about how your post struck me and as you know, _*on the internet we can't tell people's inflections or senses of humor*_ until we get to know them pretty well. Lots of us on SM have really good senses of humor, but it was hard to tell on your OP, so I took it for face value. BTW, I'm a little old to know Gaga's terminology but I like her music.
> I'm happy that you stayed with us and answered our points and hope that we can all share info, stories and photos together. I think that Violet sounds adorable, smart and funny and can't wait to see her grow...and grow. LOL (Sense of humor here:HistericalSmiley _*My guy is just under 5 lbs. and just today I was wishing he was bigger and would jump in and out of the car to get up to his car seat instead of me having to pick him up all the time.*_ I remarked to my DH that my Yorkie used to have not trouble...he was about 10 lbs
> Before I came to SM I didn't know the difference between a BYB, a pet store and a reputable breeder. My lucky fortune was that I found SM _before _I got Tyler. But we know that's not the case with many who come here and we really do embrace all our pets and owners. We're trying to help educate others and put an end to pet abuse of puppy mills and the ever burgeoning numbers of dogs that end up in shelters. The only way to do that is if people don't keep perpetuating bad practices. We don't want to see dogs lose their lives to keep disreputable breeders in business. Most of the members here are so passionate about our breed and have some of the biggest hearts you can ever imagine and go out of their ways to help other members in so many ways.
> _*Vera - I really hope we all understand each other better and do hope that you'll be an active member here. And, yes, it does eat up a lot of time...especially after you know more members. Love to see more pix of Violet.*_


Hi Snowbody, you are SO right about not being able to tell about people's senses of humor or their "tone" just from writing something. Here's a GREAT example of how you can't tell tone... My friend put as her status on facebook "Happy, happy, joy, joy" last week and people were commenting "aww, so glad you're in a good mood" or "share with us what you're so happy about!" or "I LOVE Ren & Stimpy!" when in fact she meant it sarcastically... she was having a really bad day.

LOL; I WISH Violet would jump into the car... she backs away from it as she gets car sick. She DOES however run up and down stairs... at least I don't have to constantly carry her up & down like I did when I dog sat for my friends' 6 lb Maltese named Caesar. She's still too small to jump up on the bed though as we have a very high bed (thank goodness) but I'm sure that some day she will... when that day comes, we still plan to have her sleep in the crate. 

I have to admit, there was a point when I had considered becoming a silent member and just read posts or perhaps join another forum, but after reading your post and many others, I feel that this forum is a great place for me to seek advice and information, and I wholeheartedly thank you and everyone for being so nice and supportive.

*I also posted more photos of Violet!!! Her fluff is getting much fluffier... the groomer cut her a little too short in FL, but it is summer. I'll also post links to videos soon... she's quite the character, just like her mommy :wavetowel2:*



MaryH said:


> Hi Vera and welcome to Spoiled Maltese. Yup, using the word "monster" to an audience that doesn't know you certainly evoked some passionate responses ... and made me think of the number of times I've referred to my gang as monsters. :w00t: But like you, _*when I call any one of mine a monster **I really mean a rascal or a brat or some other term of endearment for a cute, fresh, sassy little dog*_. I don't put alot of faith in all those size and weight charts because sometimes God and genetics overrule. My first Maltese were rescues, one is 10+ lbs., one is 7+ lbs., and one was 5 lbs. As best I can tell, none of them had stellar pedigrees behind them and, thankfully, none of them had major health issues either. What makes for a good breeder, bad breeder, backyard breeder or any other kind of breeder? There are as many opinions as there are members of this forum. I may be in the minority but I don't consider your friend to be a breeder at all. She has two intact dogs, she didn't know better, a mating happened and puppies were born. She sounds like she placed them all in homes where they will be well provided for. When we know better we do better and I bet she knows that now. I wonder if all of you who got a puppy could help her out by looking for a_* low cost *_spay/neuter program in her area and each chip in a little bit of money to pay for her _*male to get neutered*_. Neutering is generally less costly than a spay and for now would go a long way toward preventing another litter. As for the opinions about financial ability and stability, money alone doesn't guarantee good physical and emotional care. Sometimes life happens and tomorrow could be very different than today. The person who is home today could be back to work tomorrow or, worse yet, could be homeless. I think it's at least as important what's in a person's heart as what's in their bank account. And I think both you and Violet hit the jackpot!


Hi MaryH, thank you so much for the welcome. Yes, I guess rascal or character would have been a better word for her. I'll try to substitute those words for monster on this forum next time :blush:

*I have GREAT news! I spoke to Theresa over the weekend and she got her little man neutered on Saturday- they were running an event near her town & offered low cost neutering! She said it was much cheaper than spaying. No more accidents with her doggies!!! *:aktion033:



Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Vera, I welcome you and precious Violet to Spoiled Maltese.:tender: And, I think you are a terrific Mommy for Violet.
> 
> Violet is a little doll ... she is beautiful. :wub::wub:
> 
> To be honest, I took a long time to respond to your thread ... but, I am so glad that I waited. I was another member who read your introduction in the wrong way ... as far as the *monster* and your worrying about Violet becoming too big. However, I just read your heartfelt explanation post toward the end of your thread. And, with that, I now see your introduction in a different light. I can see now that you love, and will continue to love, and love Violet even more than you do today.
> 
> Our precious fluff babies are so magical and wonderful with the joy they bring into our lives every day. _* The only time we aren't smiling is when our fluff babies are not feeling well*_ ... and, worse yet, when we don't know why they are sick ... because we love them so much, and hurt along with them.
> 
> You will find so many wonderful members here on Spoiled Maltese. I have learned so much from Spoiled Maltese. I continue to learn. I consider SM my other family. We have a special and unique connection because of our fluff's.
> 
> Big hugs for you and Violet. :tender:


Hi Snowball Pie's Mommi, thank you for the welcome :biggrin:

You are SO right about not smiling when are little fluffs are in pain. My little Violet has been resting for over 5 hours since I brought her home from the vet. She got the rest of her shots today and the last one the vet said would hurt... and she yelped and whined when that one was administered... the vet said she wished it didn't hurt. I got a little teary hearing her reaction even though I was warned. Poor little thing. I wanted to say "I'm sorry" with some chicken and sweet potato treats, but she had this "I'm too hurt to eat" look on her face and just crawled under the dining room table to rest. She NEVER lays under the table unless we're eating at the table... she just wanted to be alone I guess. I picked her up and brought her ino my office an hour later, and she's been resting in her little doughnut bed next to my desk chair... and hasn't moved much since I brought her in... the vet did warn me that she might be a little listless. She'll be OK, I'm sure.




misti9er said:


> :Welcome 3:


Thank you misti9er!



glamourdog said:


> I'm coming into this post very late, so I havn't read all the responses, but as a general rule of thumb, Maltese at 12 weeks are going to be ~about 2.5 X that weight as an adult.
> 
> So 4.5lbs at 13 you figure 4.2 at 12 weeks, so 10lbs-11lbs is a good estimate for adult weight.
> 
> It's not an exact science but I've found it VERY close over the years. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who were "told" by their breeder there maltese/chihuahua/yorkie/pom was "not going to get much bigger" or would only be X lbs, when there was no chance that was going to happen.
> 
> My guess is that a breeder with a maltese they know is going to be 8.5 lbs will have a hard time selling it for $500, but if they "say" the same dog is going to be 4.5lbs they will have 3-5 people lined up to pay them $1000-$1500 for the puppy.
> 
> Just my experience, but I deal with this stiuation at least once a week, every week.


When I took Violet to the vet today, she said she is 5.7 lbs now (at almost 17 weeks) and may end up being about 12 lbs. Ah well, she'll still be loved :wub:



Crystal&Zoe said:


> The only way she would really be considered a BYB in my eyes is if #1, she had planned on having puppies by getting a male and a female and #2, if she _*continues*_ to have puppies.
> 
> It sounds like this is just a case of not knowing any better and an 'oops' happened. Hopefully all of you who got a lovable little fluff to enrich their lives might help by chipping in towards their spay and neuter as a 'thank you' for the gift of a precious baby to love and be loved by. :thumbsup:
> 
> Aw Mary, what a great post! It never ceases to amaze me how much more understanding and forgiving you great breeders. When I was at the dog show in Chicago and was listening to some of the breeders there in the benching area talk with people, and people would be beaming about their 'teacup' Maltese, thinking that was super impressive, the breeders there just smiled and found something nice to say. Better then I do some days when I feel it's my personal duty to educate everyone who sets foot in my store what constitutes a reputable breeder and what doesn't. :embarrassed:
> 
> btw I don't put a lot of faith in those charts either. We have way too many examples here on SM of different lines that must have forgotten to read those charts. lol
> 
> 
> I always feel bad when customers come in with a puppy who is between 2 and 4 months old and they are buying harnesses, clothes, etc and I mention how this should fit for about so long before they get to their adult size and they adamantly tell me the 'breeder' said they should not get much bigger then the size they already are. Boy are they going to be surprised.


Exactly Crystal&Zoe... she does not plan to breed them anymore and had the male fixed as I mentioned earlier :thumbsup:



wooflife said:


> I tracked Izzy on a growth chart when I got her and she is pretty much right on target with her weight. We did have to go on a diet this year as she got a little (cough) heavy for size.


Thanks for your input wooflife, I guess I was just looking for a continuation of that chart, but the more I think about it, size doesn't matter... unless we're discussing something else not related to dogs (cough)... LOL!!!



Jayne said:


> I have eight maltese and three bichons here.. They range in weight from 5 lbs to 12 lbs.. The larger maltese seem to have a much wavier coat than the smaller ones, although the smaller have some wiggle to them also.. Some are rescues from puppy mills, some are pet store escapees..I don't think any came from reputable breeders.. The larger ones probably have some Bichon mixed in.. And I hear that some breeders mix them and don't tell you about it.. But, the fact is they are all special in their own way, and I believe your little girl will give you many years of love and will be your cherished little old lady one day.. No matter the size she will be very special to you through the years.. So......welcome to the group..Were glad to have you and Violet with us...
> 
> Jayne, Kayla, Kiley Kinky, Kallie, Lovey, Gucci, Keishi, Gypsy, Phoebe, Katey,and last but certainly not least,.Willie...


Hi Jayne and your clan, thank you for your welcome. :wub:


*To everyone who has asked for more photos of my little "monster". I just uploaded a bunch... I hope you enjoy, I know I enjoyed taking them!* :cloud9:


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## mss

Curious, what vaccination hurt? I thought they were all subcutaneous now. 

(I had a larger sized Malt for 13-1/2 years, followed by my rescue, Butchie, who is in the "monster" range.  I agree with the sentiment of "more to love."  )


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## Snowbody

Vera - thanks so much for your replies and I'm so glad you're sticking with us and not secretly So I'm looking for the pictures of Violet and don't see any. Sounded like you posted them already. Anxious to see them.


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## VioletVera

mss said:


> Curious, what vaccination hurt? I thought they were all subcutaneous now.


I don't exactly remember which one it was, but today she got her Bordetella Vaccination, DH2PP Puppy Vaccination #3, Rabies Vaccination, and Leptospirosis Vaccine #1. I can always call the vet tomorrow to find out which one was the painful one.

BTW, wanna laugh? There are 2 vets at this veterinary hospital I take Violet to, and the one we saw today is Dr. Maltese. No lie! She said she has a very soft spot for Maltese dogs... gee, I wonder why? :goof:



Snowbody said:


> Vera - thanks so much for your replies and I'm so glad you're sticking with us and not secretly So I'm looking for the pictures of Violet and don't see any. Sounded like you posted them already. Anxious to see them.


Thanks Snowbody! :smootch:

Here's the link to my albums... I created 2 new ones in case you were looking in the first album, one is Violet just under 4 months and the other was for her bath last week, she looked too funny wet, I hardly recognize her!:rofl: Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums - VioletVera's Albums


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## bellaratamaltese

VioletVera said:


> I* don't exactly remember which one it was, but today she got her Bordetella Vaccination, DH2PP Puppy Vaccination #3, Rabies Vaccination, and Leptospirosis Vaccine #1. I can always call the vet tomorrow to find out which one was the painful one.*
> 
> BTW, wanna laugh? There are 2 vets at this veterinary hospital I take Violet to, and the one we saw today is Dr. Maltese. No lie! She said she has a very soft spot for Maltese dogs... gee, I wonder why? :goof:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Snowbody! :smootch:
> 
> Here's the link to my albums... I created 2 new ones in case you were looking in the first album, one is Violet just under 4 months and the other was for her bath last week, she looked too funny wet, I hardly recognize her!:rofl: Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums - VioletVera's Albums


Oh no wonder she isn't feeling well! She shouldn't have had all those shots together. I never let them get rabies and other vaccinations on the same day, those should have been split up 

Poor little Violet!


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## Snowbody

VioletVera said:


> I don't exactly remember which one it was, but today she got her Bordetella Vaccination, DH2PP Puppy Vaccination #3, Rabies Vaccination, and Leptospirosis Vaccine #1. I can always call the vet tomorrow to find out which one was the painful one.
> 
> BTW, wanna laugh? There are 2 vets at this veterinary hospital I take Violet to, and the one we saw today is Dr. Maltese. No lie! She said she has a very soft spot for Maltese dogs... gee, I wonder why? :goof:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Snowbody! :smootch:
> 
> Here's the link to my albums... I created 2 new ones in case you were looking in the first album, one is Violet just under 4 months and the other was for her bath last week, she looked too funny wet, I hardly recognize her!:rofl: Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums - VioletVera's Albums


Vera - the photos are so cute. What a little snuggle bunny. :wub::wub: I loved the captions too especially at the top of the stairs. We call Tyler our drowned water rat when he's in the bath. :w00t:
Sorry Violet's feeling out of it. For future reference, I would only give her one shot at a time. My vet insisted on doing that with Tyler and all small dogs, and didn't charge me for the extra visits, just for the shots. It's good to space them, especially in case one of them causes a reaction. With them all together you wouldn't know which one caused it.It's also a lot for a little dog to take. I don't remember Tyler crying out at all. Hope Vi feels better.


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## VioletVera

bellaratamaltese said:


> Oh no wonder she isn't feeling well! She shouldn't have had all those shots together. I never let them get rabies and other vaccinations on the same day, those should have been split up
> 
> Poor little Violet!


:angry: I didn't know that they should be split up... and the vet didn't say they should be split up either.

She woke up right after this evening's post and I fed her. After she ate her chicken and white rice, she looked MUCH better... she even got out 2 toys and offered them to me... she wanted to play! :Happy_Dance:


I posted some videos of her too so you can she how she's quite a character! :smtease:


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## VioletVera

I also have this video after her bath... she acted mad at me! If she could speak, she's say, "No more baths! I like being dirty and gray!"


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## bellaratamaltese

oh thsoe videos are ADORABLE!!!!!!! what a happy girl!


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## VioletVera

bellaratamaltese said:


> oh thsoe videos are ADORABLE!!!!!!! what a happy girl!


Thanks Stacy! :hugging:


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