# How do you sort through this?!



## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

I am so overwhelmed!!

I've contacted a LOT of the breeders on the AMA list just to see what they have, etc. Like I think I mentioned before, I want my puppy in April-May. Gender isn't my first concern. I mostly want a puppy with a mellow, snuggly temperament (of course I know all puppies are energetic but I don't really want the super busy, independent type). Appearance is also pretty important for me: looking for a nice coat, 'babydoll' face with the short muzzle, wider set eye, etc. I figure with that many criteria already, I don't want to lower my chances too much by limiting gender, too. But, all other things being equal, I'd prefer a female. 

So, I'm getting some responses back. I asked right away in my email what they have available, prices, the temperament I want, and if they tend to throw the 'babydoll face'. 

Shockingly, it seems they ALL claim to have babyfaced Malts, and the ones that did have puppies (all males) claimed that he had the babydoll face and temperament I was looking for. 

Now, what I want to know: 

HOW is it possible that all of these people claim to have what I want?? Is it possible they're just trying to push on me what they happen to have so they can get a sale? I know these are supposed to be reputable breeders, but it just seems a little off...

On a side note, even after seeing some pictures, I have a really hard time telling what faces might mature into what I'm looking for. Of course all Malt puppies are adorable, so I'm having a little trouble distinguishing. I have to depend on the breeder I guess..

I'm just feeling a little bit overwhelmed with the whole situation. Not sure how much I should bank on these breeders..

HELP!!!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

No, I do not find it strange for multiple breeders to have pet males with lovely temperaments. So many people insist on a female, males are often left behind. Breeders also tend to save more females for their breeding program, again resulting in more male pets. 

"Babydoll face" is not a technical term and the definition is left totally up to the person describing it. Extremes in short muzzles, huge eyes, and very wide eye sets are incorrect according to our breed standard. Anyone purposefully breeding away from the standard to sell "babydoll heads" is rather questionable IMO. I would drop the expression and stick to describing the specific facial features you are looking for. And you are correct, unless you buy an adult you cannot know what the face will mature to be. A breeder who knows their lines well can give you a typically accurate estimation, but no guarantee. 

Dogs are not made to order. Genetics is not a science and breeders can use all of the best tools...but they are not God.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I experienced the same thing. Almost every breeder said their pup had a baby doll face, even if the pup didn't in my eyes. Almost every breeder said the pup had a short muzzle, even if she didn't in my eyes.

"Short muzzle" and "baby doll face" are both very subjective terms. Even the term "extreme baby doll face" is subjective!

I would try to buy an older pup, like 5-6 months. Lots of pups are baby doll until 3+ months because the muzzle needs to be short to nurse, apparently. The muzzle and eyes grow until 5 months, according to most breeders.

You can ask for pictures of the pups with their faces wet (only one breeder agreed to this). You can ask for side profile pictures. You can ask for pictures of the pup looking down. Keep in mind even a poodle will have a short muzzle if their head is pointed at the ceiling.


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## mfa (Oct 5, 2009)

if you want to know exactly how the baby will turn out, then you would be better off getting a teenager.

Good luck in your search!!!


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## LUCY N PETS (Apr 21, 2009)

I agree with the others, every breeder thinks that their pups are adorable and what they think is the perfect look. That's why there are more than one breeder and if you want a specific look ask to see pictures of their dams and sires and puppies from past litters. But, I must say no two pups are the same and neither are we, every one has their own look and personality. Maybe you should look into older pups or retired breeders, but then to they can look completely different in the way they are groomed and the way they are trimmed. Hope you find that certain pup you are looking for. But then again, you could get a pup from three different breeders like I did. In the end they all just about act alike and lots of people think they are all sisters from the same litter and they aren't.

Hugs,
Lucy, Breeze, Savannah and Sparkle


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## remy (Jul 9, 2009)

QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 30 2010, 12:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879108


> I experienced the same thing. Almost every breeder said their pup had a baby doll face, even if the pup didn't in my eyes. Almost every breeder said the pup had a short muzzle, even if she didn't in my eyes.
> 
> "Short muzzle" and "baby doll face" are both very subjective terms. Even the term "extreme baby doll face" is subjective!
> 
> ...


agree! it's best if you can buy an older pup at 5 months or more. this way you can tell what he/she will look like. also definitely get pictures of top and side view. 

as for temperament, i would trust the breeder as she knows her dogs. a good breeder would match the right dog to you.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Have a look at the parents if you can, but that's no guarantee. The others are correct, if you are set on a certain "look" you will have to find an older puppy. Their looks change quite a bit. 

I wasn't set on a "look" but more interested in temperament and size. I'm very happy that my Nikki's personality is exactly what I was looking for, and she is very cute, too. Janet (Phlick's Maltese) says that my Nikki takes after Chaos, her mother. I hope so, because I love Chaos' face!


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 30 2010, 01:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879108


> I experienced the same thing. Almost every breeder said their pup had a baby doll face, even if the pup didn't in my eyes. Almost every breeder said the pup had a short muzzle, even if she didn't in my eyes.
> 
> "Short muzzle" and "baby doll face" are both very subjective terms. Even the term "extreme baby doll face" is subjective!
> 
> ...


These are good ideas. I'll definitely keep them in mind when talking further with breeders. 

I'm not completely opposed to an older pup, and there are two breeders I've spoken to who are holding a pup back as a show prospect. If that doesn't work out, I would have the chance to have one of them. But, I'm a little hesitant to get a pup who I haven't had a chance to socialize from a young age. I know breeders normally try to socialize really well, but I want mine to be accustomed to meeting new people, going new places, walking around outside with CONFIDENCE..it seems many breeders keep their puppies in the house unless going to the vet. My worst nightmare would be a highly reactive dog that's scared all the time. If I had the puppy from a younger age, I might be able to introduce some of these things myself--something that might be harder with a dog completely unfamiliar with them for the first 5-6 months of life. 

Maybe my expectations are too high. I just feel like, with such a huge committment, I shouldn't really have to sacrifice what I'm looking for in terms of looks or temperament. Patience is a virtue, I suppose...


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## remy (Jul 9, 2009)

QUOTE (pinkpixie1588 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879140


> These are good ideas. I'll definitely keep them in mind when talking further with breeders.
> 
> I'm not completely opposed to an older pup, and there are two breeders I've spoken to who are holding a pup back as a show prospect. If that doesn't work out, I would have the chance to have one of them. But, I'm a little hesitant to get a pup who I haven't had a chance to socialize from a young age. I know breeders normally try to socialize really well, but I want mine to be accustomed to meeting new people, going new places, walking around outside with CONFIDENCE..it seems many breeders keep their puppies in the house unless going to the vet. My worst nightmare would be a highly reactive dog that's scared all the time. If I had the puppy from a younger age, I might be able to introduce some of these things myself--something that might be harder with a dog completely unfamiliar with them for the first 5-6 months of life.
> 
> Maybe my expectations are too high. I just feel like, with such a huge committment, I shouldn't really have to sacrifice what I'm looking for in terms of looks or temperament. Patience is a virtue, I suppose...[/B]


i got remy when he was 7 months and he wasn't highly reactive or a scared dog. he's actually very social. it's really up to you when you get your dog to socialize it regardless of age. and it's something you have to keep up.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Sometimes breeders are kennel blind. That means they see a pup as they WANT to see him.
Sometimes breeders just want the pup to go to a loving home so they may fudge a little on the
terms baby doll or short muzzle, etc. It's important to know what to look for when receiving 
pics. If the muzzle looks long to you in a pic, then you probably won't be happy with the 
results. I've never seen a longer muzzle grow into a shorter muzzle. 
When asking for pics it's not too much to ask for side pic of the head, front view and full body
standing sideways. That should give you enough info to go on. Blurry pics do not count! LOL


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I am going to step way out here, and ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time now. What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about? I love the Maltese face. Just the way it is!! The breed standard calls for:
*Head*
*Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. The muzzle is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy.The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.*

I see some pictures posted here of Maltese that are starting to look like tiny shih tzu's to me. And if you are wanting a wonderful cuddly temperament, please do not exclude males. They are the most cuddly, devoted dogs.

Hope I don't offend anyone, but I would hate to see breeders start to breed away from the standard due to the demands of the public. That has really damaged some wonderful breeds IMHO.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145


> I am going to step way out here, and ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time now. What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about? I love the Maltese face. Just the way it is!! The breed standard calls for:
> *Head*
> *Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. The muzzle is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy.The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.*
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: 


For example, The English Bulldog. 

I really think that all Malts are very adorable and their personalities/temperaments are far more important than their looks. Sort of like humans, too....


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## remy (Jul 9, 2009)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145


> And if you are wanting a wonderful cuddly temperament, please do not exclude males. They are the most cuddly, devoted dogs.[/B]


completely agree! couldn't be happier with a boy. he's so affectionate and kissy kissy and wants to be with me all the time. and he's super laid back :wub: :wub:


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jan 30 2010, 01:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879147


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145





> I am going to step way out here, and ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time now. What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about? I love the Maltese face. Just the way it is!! The breed standard calls for:
> *Head*
> *Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. The muzzle is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy.The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.*
> 
> ...


For example, The English Bulldog. 

I really think that all Malts are very adorable and their personalities/temperaments are far more important than their looks. Sort of like humans, too....
[/B][/QUOTE]

I also think all Maltese are cute, baby doll face or not. I'd also like to add that I have never seen a Maltese that has looked like a Shih Tzu. The baby doll-faced Maltese seem to just have different proportions than the "regular" face, but still seem to fit the standard IMO. I'm probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but that's what I think.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Pam, I don't think you're offending anyone, it's purely a personal choice in my opinion. 

And I guess if you're willing to pay big bucks for a pup, I don't see it being selfish to want what you want. 

The faces and muzzles of all three of my dogs are different, and I love them all the same. 

Although I do think my Archie's profile is just perfection.... :wub: ....not too long...not too short. (he was bred in a puppy mill and sold at a pet shop).

Ava's face is very tiny, but then again her whole body is tiny and she has that "cute" factor (in my opinion)

And Abbey's muzzle is probably the closest to the standard and I think she's adorable too.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Not all breeders are created equal on socializing there pups. That is something you need to discuss with the specific breeder. You would certainly be doing a HUGE disservice to a number of breeders to assume they do not socialize their pups. 

I got Soda Pop at about 5 months. He had been toted around in the car for this and that, gone to the petstore, tagged along to shows, to the vet, etc. He was lead trained and pretty much housetrained. He was crate trained and a seasoned traveler. I had him shipped to me. Picked up the crate and there's my tail-wagging beast who happily took a chomp of his food. 
I purchased Roo a few weeks earlier in age and his breeder had also been active in getting him out to the park, kid's ballgames, shows, etc. Roo ADORES children and that wasn't a reflection on my work, he came to me that way. 

As a dog trainer who sees only behavior problems, I would much rather that socialization be done by someone who can do it right and send a pup home at a later age than have the dog end up in for a consultation with me for a problem stemming from lack of socialization at a critical time. It seems everybody wants a 12 week old baby, but most people don't want to visit a 100 people in 7 weeks to sign their puppy book.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (roxybaby22 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879151


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jan 30 2010, 01:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879147





> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145





> I am going to step way out here, and ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time now. What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about? I love the Maltese face. Just the way it is!! The breed standard calls for:
> *Head*
> *Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. The muzzle is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy.The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.*
> 
> ...


For example, The English Bulldog. 

I really think that all Malts are very adorable and their personalities/temperaments are far more important than their looks. Sort of like humans, too....
[/B][/QUOTE]

I also think all Maltese are cute, baby doll face or not. I'd also like to add that I have never seen a Maltese that has looked like a Shih Tzu. The baby doll-faced Maltese seem to just have different proportions than the "regular" face, but still seem to fit the standard IMO. I'm probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but that's what I think.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I've studied many pictures of shih tzus and maltese with extreme baby doll faces. I've studied how their standard varies. Although I've seen shihs that have longer muzzles than my Gigi(they must not have been from a quality breeder), I love both breeds and I want to see what the difference is between the too. Shih Tzus have almost "flat faces". They are also nicknamed the "Chrysanthemum Dog" because of their muzzle/face. Maltese standard calls for scizzor bite. The shih tzu standard calls for *undershot jaw*. It states " Front of muzzle should be flat".

Check out this page, it has many pics of a shih's head. 


















I don't know about you all, but I have NOT seen a maltese with a muzzle THAT short or a face that flat.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Jan 30 2010, 10:49 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879155


> Pam, I don't think you're offending anyone, it's purely a personal choice in my opinion.
> 
> And I guess if you're willing to pay big bucks for a pup, I don't see it being selfish to want what you want.
> 
> ...


I agree Pat! All of your babies are adorable (including Tink!) And while I agree in concept, that you should be able to "get what you want" when paying big bucks, I just fear where that may lead the breed in the future. Breeding just for "looks" has really taken some breeds down a treacherous road. I just don't like the term 'baby doll". If you goggle baby doll faces or extreme baby doll faces, you will see lists of what most of us would agree are unscrouplous breeders. The term "babydoll face" is often pared with the term "tea cup." Just an observation.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Jan 30 2010, 12:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879155


> Pam, I don't think you're offending anyone, it's purely a personal choice in my opinion.
> 
> And I guess if you're willing to pay big bucks for a pup, I don't see it being selfish to want what you want.
> 
> ...



I agree, Pat. It's all subjective and if I'm paying 3K for a dog I want what I want, otherwise I will go to rescue...
which I have in the past.
Anyway, there is no big deal about baby doll faces. They've been around for many, many, many years and will most likely
continue to be. They're not as easily found as the longer muzzle so it may seem they are sought out more when, in 
fact, they are just not as easily found. 
I have yet to see a maltese on this forum that looks like a shih tzu. :new_shocked:


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145


> I am going to step way out here, and ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time now. What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about? I love the Maltese face. Just the way it is!!
> 
> I see some pictures posted here of Maltese that are starting to look like tiny shih tzu's to me. And if you are wanting a wonderful cuddly temperament, please do not exclude males. They are the most cuddly, devoted dogs.[/B]


In terms of the babydoll face..I love the look of most Malts. I think they're all adorable. But, if I am going to weed through tons of breeders and puppies, I have to decide what my preference will be. I think I like that 'look' because it seems they maintain the puppy face indefinitely. Who doesn't love that cute puppy look? And to have it forever..? That's a good thing. Obviously if I had to choose between temperament and looks I will choose temperament, but I haven't had any reason to have to separate those two desires yet..

I will certainly consider males. I don't want to stereotype either gender, as I've heard of many females being extremely cuddly, too. In practical terms, I don't see much of a benefit to getting a girl over a boy other than more wardrobe choices  


QUOTE (JMM @ Jan 30 2010, 02:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879167


> Not all breeders are created equal on socializing there pups. That is something you need to discuss with the specific breeder. You would certainly be doing a HUGE disservice to a number of breeders to assume they do not socialize their pups.
> 
> I got Soda Pop at about 5 months. He had been toted around in the car for this and that, gone to the petstore, tagged along to shows, to the vet, etc. He was lead trained and pretty much housetrained. He was crate trained and a seasoned traveler. I had him shipped to me. Picked up the crate and there's my tail-wagging beast who happily took a chomp of his food.
> I purchased Roo a few weeks earlier in age and his breeder had also been active in getting him out to the park, kid's ballgames, shows, etc. Roo ADORES children and that wasn't a reflection on my work, he came to me that way.
> ...


It's good to hear that some breeders really do a great job with socializing. I will have to make sure I ask lots of questions of my prospective breeders to choose according to that. Thanks for the reminder that I need to have faith in the breeder to do those things!


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 30 2010, 12:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879108


> I experienced the same thing. Almost every breeder said their pup had a baby doll face, even if the pup didn't in my eyes. Almost every breeder said the pup had a short muzzle, even if she didn't in my eyes.
> 
> "Short muzzle" and "baby doll face" are both very subjective terms. Even the term "extreme baby doll face" is subjective!
> 
> ...


Yup! Trust what Sophia has said, she has spent many, MANY months searching for her perfect malt baby. And I've said it before, ALL puppies look the same at a certain age to me. This is one of the main reasons I got my Gigi at 5.5 months old because I wanted to KNOW what she would look like as older.

As for the term "babydoll", it's kind of subjective. There's also a difference between a smaller than standard muzzle and an extreme babydoll face. Some may think my Gigi has a "babydoll" face, but to me she doesn't, she has a smaller than standard muzzle, not babydoll. Cosy has a "babydoll" face.

Sending you a pm more about "babydoll" faces and how you can tell if a pup has one. 

And I agree with Pat, if I'm spending $$$$ for a dog, you're darn right I'm expecting perfection. LOL


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jan 30 2010, 02:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879173


> I agree, Pat. It's all subjective and if I'm paying 3K for a dog I want what I want, otherwise I will go to rescue...
> which I have in the past.
> Anyway, there is no big deal about baby doll faces. They've been around for many, many, many years and will most likely
> continue to be. They're not as easily found as the longer muzzle so it may seem they are sought out more when, in
> ...


BTW, if you can just find a way to clone Cosy, I can end my search right now! Let me know if you figure that out.. :biggrin: :wub: :wub:


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

[attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879183


> [attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
> Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
> I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
> knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
> bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.[/B]


Pam, you can't tell if a puppy has a wide eye set, unless you can see the puppy from the front. But I understand, you don't want maltese to become a bracheocephalic type dog, nor do I for that matter either, it causes many health problems.  

And to everyboody, you CAN NOT tell if a puppy has a babydoll face of not from that picture because of the muzzle hair, it is in a "fan cut". Look how the muzzle hair covers the part of the muzzle that we need to see in order to tell the length of that his muzzle really is. It's very deceiving to new puppy buyers because they will assume, based on that picture, that that puppy will have an extreme babydoll face. But in factual truth, I *strongly* believe that puppy may have a muzzle like my Gigi's as he grows. Not long, but not to the extreme either. You CAN NOT tell if that pup will have an extreme face unless you see a profile picture.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879172


> And while I agree in concept, that you should be able to "get what you want" when paying big bucks, I just fear where that may lead the breed in the future. Breeding just for "looks" has really taken some breeds down a treacherous road. I just don't like the term 'baby doll". If you goggle baby doll faces or extreme baby doll faces, you will see lists of what most of us would agree are unscrouplous breeders. The term "babydoll face" is often pared with the term "tea cup." Just an observation.[/B]


Pam, I totally agree that any breed can be negatively impacted when breeders give consideration to only one aspect of the dog rather than looking at the whole dog when making breeding choices. I also think that Brit makes a good point that "babydoll" heads may be more sought after because there are less available. And that leads me to conclude that there are less available because good breeders are breeding for the qualities of the whole dog. "Babydoll" is a subjective term and could mean different things to different people. Anything in the extreme, whether long muzzle, short muzzle, small eyes, large eyes, etc. are not correct and in keeping with the standard. All of the facial features should be in balance with each other on a head that is in balance with the rest of the body. Of all the breeders who I know personally, there isn't any one of them looking at only one aspect of their dogs when making their breeding choices. And while a prospective owner may be willing and able to spend what they want to get what they want, they may have a very long wait if working with a good breeder, or they have to buy from a breeder who is not breeding from a whole dog approach (and that would never be my recommendation).

MaryH


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 12:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879188


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879183





> [attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
> Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
> I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
> knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
> bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.[/B]


Pam, you can't tell if a puppy has a wide eye set, unless you can see the puppy from the front. And to everyboody, you CAN NOT tell if a puppy has a babydoll face of not from that picture because of the muzzle hair, it is in a "fan cut". It's very deceiving to new puppy buyers because they will assume, based on that picture, that that puppy will have an extreme babydoll face. But in factual truth, I *strongly* believe that puppy may have a muzzle like my Gigi's as he grows. Not long, but not to the extreme either. You CAN NOT tell if that pup will have an extreme face unless you see a profile picture.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't post a full face view, and I really do know that you can't tell the facial features until the dog is older. I know there are others here who have the same questions that I have. I am not trying to stir anyone up. Just offering up an opinion.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 03:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879194


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 12:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879188





> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879183





> [attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
> Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
> I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
> knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
> bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.[/B]


Pam, you can't tell if a puppy has a wide eye set, unless you can see the puppy from the front. And to everyboody, you CAN NOT tell if a puppy has a babydoll face of not from that picture because of the muzzle hair, it is in a "fan cut". It's very deceiving to new puppy buyers because they will assume, based on that picture, that that puppy will have an extreme babydoll face. But in factual truth, I *strongly* believe that puppy may have a muzzle like my Gigi's as he grows. Not long, but not to the extreme either. You CAN NOT tell if that pup will have an extreme face unless you see a profile picture.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't post a full face view, and I really do know that you can't tell the facial features until the dog is older. I know there are others here who have the same questions that I have. I am not trying to stir anyone up. Just offering up an opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

And we all appreciate your opinion. Or at least I do.  I think everyone has some unanswered questions about this term "babydoll". You're not alone, Pat.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 02:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879197


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 03:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879194





> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 12:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879188





> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879183





> [attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
> Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
> I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
> knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
> bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.[/B]


Pam, you can't tell if a puppy has a wide eye set, unless you can see the puppy from the front. And to everyboody, you CAN NOT tell if a puppy has a babydoll face of not from that picture because of the muzzle hair, it is in a "fan cut". It's very deceiving to new puppy buyers because they will assume, based on that picture, that that puppy will have an extreme babydoll face. But in factual truth, I *strongly* believe that puppy may have a muzzle like my Gigi's as he grows. Not long, but not to the extreme either. You CAN NOT tell if that pup will have an extreme face unless you see a profile picture.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't post a full face view, and I really do know that you can't tell the facial features until the dog is older. I know there are others here who have the same questions that I have. I am not trying to stir anyone up. Just offering up an opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

And we all appreciate your opinion. Or at least I do.  I think everyone has some unanswered questions about this term "babydoll". You're not alone, Pat. 
[/B][/QUOTE]


I think the puppy mustache and length of hair on a pup can make it appear to be shorter muzzled too. That picture isn't 
showing off the profile and I doubt it's shih tzu or pug short. I know Cosy's mustache is so thick it tends to make her appear
to have no muzzle sometimes, when, in fact, she does...abeit shorter but not flat.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

My goal for breeding is to breed what I like for the show ring and that includes short muzzled puppies. Not babydoll but proportionate. I have been getting longer muzzles than I like on some of my puppies (definitely longer than their mom) but I've also been getting some nicely put together puppies with great outgoing personalities which I will take ANY DAY if I had to choose between short muzzles and great structure/temperament. 

To the OP, i can see why you are concerned but i hope you can find a breeder that you are comfortable with!


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

I just don't use the term "Doll-faced" or "Baby doll face" and have always wondered why it is so common here. I guess it stems from being a Yorkie person. According to the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Code of Ethics, it is unethical for a yorkie breeder to use the term "doll faced".

http://www.ytca.org/ethics2.html
"8) A member's advertising: -shall be professional in appearance and location; -may refer to YTCA membership but may not misuse YTCA membership to attempt to enhance integrity or the quality of stock; -shall not contain any misleading photograph or other graphic materials; *-shall not use terms such as "teacup", "tiny specialists", "doll faced", or similar terminology."*

With that said, I do love a shorter muzzle and large round slightly wide-set eyes on a maltese. That is the look I like. When describing to a breeder I would say that I want a dog with a shorter muzzle with large round eyes, although nothing overly extreme. I don't want a maltese to look like a shihtzu. But I do like a shorter than average muzzle. I like that sweet, cute look on a maltese, and the shorter muzzle and large round eyes give you that. I have seen a couple maltese before that are a little too extreme in muzzle length or wide-set eyes before...but not too many. 

To the OP - why not find a couple puppy and adult maltese photos that have the exact look that you want. And then attach those to show breeders so they can get an idea of what you are wanting. Maybe that will help them narrow it down for you and for you to be able to compare those puppies to pictures of the puppies you've seen before and like.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jan 30 2010, 03:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879213


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 02:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879197





> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 03:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879194





> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 12:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879188





> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879183





> [attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
> Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
> I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
> knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
> bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.[/B]


Pam, you can't tell if a puppy has a wide eye set, unless you can see the puppy from the front. And to everyboody, you CAN NOT tell if a puppy has a babydoll face of not from that picture because of the muzzle hair, it is in a "fan cut". It's very deceiving to new puppy buyers because they will assume, based on that picture, that that puppy will have an extreme babydoll face. But in factual truth, I *strongly* believe that puppy may have a muzzle like my Gigi's as he grows. Not long, but not to the extreme either. You CAN NOT tell if that pup will have an extreme face unless you see a profile picture.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't post a full face view, and I really do know that you can't tell the facial features until the dog is older. I know there are others here who have the same questions that I have. I am not trying to stir anyone up. Just offering up an opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

And we all appreciate your opinion. Or at least I do.  I think everyone has some unanswered questions about this term "babydoll". You're not alone, Pat. 
[/B][/QUOTE]


I think the puppy mustache and length of hair on a pup can make it appear to be shorter muzzled too. That picture isn't 
showing off the profile and I doubt it's shih tzu or pug short. I know Cosy's mustache is so thick it tends to make her appear
to have no muzzle sometimes, when, in fact, she does...abeit shorter but not flat.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree Brit about the hair issue. Cosy does have a muzzle(based on your siggy  ) 
Here's a shih tzu puppy:one and two and three .


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (mfa @ Jan 30 2010, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879125


> if you want to know exactly how the baby will turn out, then you would be better off getting a teenager.
> 
> Good luck in your search!!! [/B]


Oh, Florence! I dare anyone to debate this one!!! (Although my teen granddaughter is the sweetest young lady)

:smrofl: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :smrofl:


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jan 30 2010, 12:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879191


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879172





> And while I agree in concept, that you should be able to "get what you want" when paying big bucks, I just fear where that may lead the breed in the future. Breeding just for "looks" has really taken some breeds down a treacherous road. I just don't like the term 'baby doll". If you goggle baby doll faces or extreme baby doll faces, you will see lists of what most of us would agree are unscrouplous breeders. The term "babydoll face" is often pared with the term "tea cup." Just an observation.[/B]


Pam, I totally agree that any breed can be negatively impacted when breeders give consideration to only one aspect of the dog rather than looking at the whole dog when making breeding choices. I also think that Brit makes a good point that "babydoll" heads may be more sought after because there are less available. And that leads me to conclude that there are less available because good breeders are breeding for the qualities of the whole dog. "Babydoll" is a subjective term and could mean different things to different people. Anything in the extreme, whether long muzzle, short muzzle, small eyes, large eyes, etc. are not correct and in keeping with the standard. All of the facial features should be in balance with each other on a head that is in balance with the rest of the body. Of all the breeders who I know personally, there isn't any one of them looking at only one aspect of their dogs when making their breeding choices. And while a prospective owner may be willing and able to spend what they want to get what they want, they may have a very long wait if working with a good breeder, or they have to buy from a breeder who is not breeding from a whole dog approach (and that would never be my recommendation).

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks Mary, your post was very informative. You clearly have knowledge of breeding good dogs. I like the "whole dog approach" term.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jan 30 2010, 01:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879135


> Have a look at the parents if you can, but that's no guarantee. The others are correct, if you are set on a certain "look" you will have to find an older puppy. Their looks change quite a bit.
> 
> I wasn't set on a "look" but more interested in temperament and size. I'm very happy that my Nikki's personality is exactly what I was looking for, and she is very cute, too. Janet (Phlick's Maltese) says that my Nikki takes after Chaos, her mother. I hope so, because I love Chaos' face![/B]


Both my hubby and I have said that Nikki looks like she could be Snowball's sister.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jan 30 2010, 01:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879144


> I've never seen a longer muzzle grow into a shorter muzzle.
> Blurry pics do not count! LOL[/B]


Oh my god, Brit! :smrofl: You crack me up.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jan 30 2010, 01:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879147


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145





> I am going to step way out here, and ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time now. What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about? I love the Maltese face. Just the way it is!! The breed standard calls for:
> *Head*
> *Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. The muzzle is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy.The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.*
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: 


For example, The English Bulldog. 

I really think that all Malts are very adorable and their personalities/temperaments are far more important than their looks. Sort of like humans, too....
[/B][/QUOTE]

Ditto, here. 

And, you have no idea how many times I've told Snowball that I would love him just as much if he were bald. That is the truth. I love him for his endearing personality and his totally unconditional love.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (Remy @ Jan 30 2010, 01:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879148


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145





> And if you are wanting a wonderful cuddly temperament, please do not exclude males. They are the most cuddly, devoted dogs.[/B]


completely agree! couldn't be happier with a boy. he's so affectionate and kissy kissy and wants to be with me all the time. and he's super laid back :wub: :wub:
[/B][/QUOTE]

The same with Snowball ... he's all of the above. :wub: :wub: :wub:


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879188


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879183





> [attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
> Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
> I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
> knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
> bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.[/B]


Pam, you can't tell if a puppy has a wide eye set, unless you can see the puppy from the front. But I understand, you don't want maltese to become a bracheocephalic type dog, nor do I for that matter either, it causes many health problems.  

And to everyboody, you CAN NOT tell if a puppy has a babydoll face of not from that picture because of the muzzle hair, it is in a "fan cut". Look how the muzzle hair covers the part of the muzzle that we need to see in order to tell the length of that his muzzle really is. It's very deceiving to new puppy buyers because they will assume, based on that picture, that that puppy will have an extreme babydoll face. But in factual truth, I *strongly* believe that puppy may have a muzzle like my Gigi's as he grows. Not long, but not to the extreme either. You CAN NOT tell if that pup will have an extreme face unless you see a profile picture.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with Briana about the fan cut. Also, look how this pup's face changed from 9 weeks to 12 weeks (just got the pic a few days ago). At 9 weeks, the pup looked to have a short muzzle. 
[attachment=61356:9_weeks.jpg]

At 12 weeks, the pup is beautiful, but I would not call this a baby doll face. The muzzle WILL get longer until 5 months!

[attachment=61355:12_wks.JPG]


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 30 2010, 04:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879255


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jan 30 2010, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879188





> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879183





> [attachment=61353:babydoll.jpg][attachment=61354:babdoll1.jpg]
> Now, while I will agree that this puppy from another post here is adorable, I do think she bears some resemblance to the Shih Tzu that 'Ilovemymaltese' posted.
> I think it is the extremly short muzzle and the wide set eyes. I don't know if this practice has been around for a long time or not. And I am most assuredly not
> knocking anyone's malts here. I am just wondering where this will lead. I worry that like a few other breeds (bull dogs for example) the goal to breed an extremely
> bracheocephalic dog will have an adverse effect on this breed.[/B]


Pam, you can't tell if a puppy has a wide eye set, unless you can see the puppy from the front. But I understand, you don't want maltese to become a bracheocephalic type dog, nor do I for that matter either, it causes many health problems.  

And to everyboody, you CAN NOT tell if a puppy has a babydoll face of not from that picture because of the muzzle hair, it is in a "fan cut". Look how the muzzle hair covers the part of the muzzle that we need to see in order to tell the length of that his muzzle really is. It's very deceiving to new puppy buyers because they will assume, based on that picture, that that puppy will have an extreme babydoll face. But in factual truth, I *strongly* believe that puppy may have a muzzle like my Gigi's or longer as he grows. Not long, but not to the extreme either. You CAN NOT tell if that pup will have an extreme face unless you see a profile picture.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with Briana about the fan cut. Also, look how this pup's face changed from 9 weeks to 12 weeks (just got the pic a few days ago). At 9 weeks, the pup looked to have a short muzzle. 
[attachment=61356:9_weeks.jpg]

At 12 weeks, the pup is beautiful, but I would not call this a baby doll face. The muzzle WILL get longer until 5 months!

[attachment=61355:12_wks.JPG]
[/B][/QUOTE]

Good post! He still is adorable, but he may even have a longer muzzle than Gigi's! Weird...


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Briana, you are crazy for thinking Gigi doesn't have a baby doll face. She's a definite baby doll for sure!! :wub: :wub: :wub:


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

She still looks to have a short muzzle to me (although I'd need more picture angles to confirm it)..but her eye are more average size instead of larger, round eyes.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 30 2010, 04:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879260


> Briana, you are crazy for thinking Gigi doesn't have a baby doll face. She's a definite baby doll for sure!! :wub: :wub: :wub:[/B]


LOL But not to the extreme!


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Jan 30 2010, 10:49 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879155


> Pam, I don't think you're offending anyone, it's purely a personal choice in my opinion.
> 
> And I guess if you're willing to pay big bucks for a pup, I don't see it being selfish to want what you want.
> 
> ...


I also have three types of muzzles on my current three. And I have had even more if you go back to my babies that have crossed to the bridge. 

Cadeau IMHO (or maybe not so humble) has a perfect head/face. The judges often commented on this as one of their favorite features. He is not what I would call babydoll. His muzzle and eyeset combination is the "perfect" triangle. His eyes are large, but in proportion to everything on his face. 

Cadie has a similar face with eyes and muzzle very proportionate. I think this gives her an elegance of expression. This is what Maltese looked like back when that standard was written. Cacia on the other hand seems to be a classic babydoll head. Her muzzle is shorter, while her eyeset it wider. She has the "cute-ness" factor. I love both girls and both of their looks. A well-known long-time maltese handler commented on how wonderful both of them in head/expression were when he saw them at the show last weekend, but he did say that Cadie's face is more to standard. But what thrilled me most was the people who have commented on how similar they are structurally. How they both have fantastic movement. And to top it off the girls both have wonderful showy tempterments. I am blessed for sure. :Flowers 2: 

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 02:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879172


> I agree Pat! All of your babies are adorable (including Tink!) And while I agree in concept, that you should be able to "get what you want" when paying big bucks, I just fear where that may lead the breed in the future. Breeding just for "looks" has really taken some breeds down a treacherous road. I just don't like the term 'baby doll". If you goggle baby doll faces or extreme baby doll faces, you will see lists of what most of us would agree are unscrouplous breeders. The term "babydoll face" is often pared with the term "tea cup." Just an observation.[/B]


 :goodpost: 
I also worry that too much focus is put on this baby-doll face. I think it is often a marketing ploy just like tea-cup. Yes, it has a meaning. Tea-cup also has a meaning. Both of those meanings are used differently by different people, but I would prefer that people look for puppies based less on size and wide eye-sets and more on an overall beauty that should be bred into every maltese and an overall soundness that also should be the focus of any breeding program. 

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Jan 30 2010, 03:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879222


> I just don't use the term "Doll-faced" or "Baby doll face" and have always wondered why it is so common here. I guess it stems from being a Yorkie person. According to the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Code of Ethics, it is unethical for a yorkie breeder to use the term "doll faced".[/B]


I am fascinated to hear this. It does seem to reflect what Pam was saying about the relationship between babydoll face and teacup. Subjective terms used to market puppies.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

While the Breed Standard is well-written, informative and descriptive for giving one a basic understanding of what a Maltese should look, act and move like, I find that _The Illustrated Guide to the Maltese Standard_ is what everybody who wants an in-depth understanding of the breed standard should read. I have always been troubled by the term "baby doll head/face" as I have been by the term "teacup". I think of both more as marketing terms rather than descriptive terms of what our Maltese should be. Here are some excerpts from the Illustrated Guide that I personally find extremely important when choosing dogs and breeding possibilities:

*General Appearance

The Maltese is a toy dog covered from head to foot with a mantle of long silky white hair. He is gentle-mannered and affectionate, eager and sprightly in action, and despite his size, possessed of the vigor needed for the satisfactory companion.

**Clarification - The Maltese is the only dog in the toy group that possesses this long silky white hair. It is what distinguishes him at first sight from the rest of the toys. While he should grab your attention with his energy and outgoing personality, he should also make a very good companion and lap dog. In addition, although not specificaally stated in the Standard, the Maltese should be sound in the basic structure required for any breed. The Maltese Standard is not put together in a way to imply that order in which parts are listed are in any way order of importance. We do not have a point standard. No individual part of the dog, or the Standard, should be more important than another, as it takes a combination of all requirements to make a total, balanced picture. For example, coat is not more important than head balance, level topline is not more important than correct tail set, etc. Each part is important. It is up to the judge and/or breeder to decide which Maltese possesses the greater amount of those important parts taking it closer to the Standard than another.

**Head, Skull

Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate.

*_*Clarification - Here we discuss balance. Balance is when all parts of the dog fit harmoniously together with no one part exaggerated to the point of disrupting that harmony. The head should be in proper proportion to the size of the dog - Not too big for the body, nor too small. The skull is slightly rounded, not excessive as in "apple" or "domed" heads. There is a definite stop, but it is moderately blended into the skull. A Maltese head should not resemble the exaggerated head of the Japanese Chin or Burssels Griffon.
*_
These are the first two sections in the Illustrated Guide and, while each section addresses the various aspects of the dog (and you'll have to buy the Illustrated Guide if you want to learn more), what you will find used consistently throughout the Illustrated Standard is the word balance.

Like you, Stacy, I have gotten some muzzles longer than I like and I do give consideration to that when making breeding choices because it is something I would like to improve upon (no "kennel blindness" in this house). And like you, while I do take that into consideration I do not do it at the expense of losing other aspects (structure and temperament) that are equally as important.

My fear is not that we are going in the direction of an incorrect head as much as it is that we might lose the elegance that this breed has always been known for in favor of the "cute factor".

MaryH


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Jan 30 2010, 02:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879271


> While the Breed Standard is well-written, informative and descriptive for giving one a basic understanding of what a Maltese should look, act and move like, I find that _The Illustrated Guide to the Maltese Standard_ is what everybody who wants an in-depth understanding of the breed standard should read. I have always been troubled by the term "baby doll head/face" as I have been by the term "teacup". I think of both more as marketing terms rather than descriptive terms of what our Maltese should be. Here are some excerpts from the Illustrated Guide that I personally find extremely important when choosing dogs and breeding possibilities:
> 
> *General Appearance
> 
> ...


Exactly, no kennel blindness at my house. At all. Although now that Lois has matured, her muzzle length isn't as quite an issue for me because she has a nice head otherwise. It is something I will consider when I breed her to improve on but I won't sacrifice her good points 'just' to put cute short muzzles on her pups. It's very true that show dogs cannot 'walk on their heads' and Lois is proving that to me, because I've definitely gotten this far with her because she is a very sound mover, not because she is the prettiest dog in the ring. She needs one major to finish and I've been showing her exclusively from the BBE class, and for a new exhibitor, that isn't too bad!

I've always said that Lucy has 'my' ideal face and I hope to get that sometime (that's my breeding goal) ! She has a short muzzle but it's in proportion with nice large eyes.


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## mfa (Oct 5, 2009)

QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Jan 30 2010, 03:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879228


> QUOTE (mfa @ Jan 30 2010, 01:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879125





> if you want to know exactly how the baby will turn out, then you would be better off getting a teenager.
> 
> Good luck in your search!!! [/B]


Oh, Florence! I dare anyone to debate this one!!! (Although my teen granddaughter is the sweetest young lady)

:smrofl: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :smrofl:
[/B][/QUOTE]


OMG, that is too funny!!! LOL!!! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145


> What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about?[/B]




Neoteny


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I've also had a preference for a very classic, moderate face. We found some old pictures the other day and I said "those are Mikey" hubby said, no Soda....I was shocked at how incredible similar their facial structure is. Guess I really do have a distinct preference LOL


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 30 2010, 05:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879458


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145





> What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about?[/B]




Neoteny
[/B][/QUOTE]
Percisely!


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

I think all Malts are beautiful. I haven't ever seen a Malt that I didn't think was adorable, beautiful, stunning, gorgeous, or all of the above. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting one with a "baby-doll" head. Personally, I love the look of Malts with a short muzzle, wide eye set, and humongous eyes. This is exactly the look I'm wanting in my next fluff.

pinkpixie, have you spoken to Bonnie Palmer (Angel Maltese)? A lot of her fluffs have short muzzles with a wider eye set. You mentioned you're wanting to add one in April/May. Perhaps she'll have one for you then.


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Jan 31 2010, 03:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879173


> It's all subjective and if I'm paying 3K for a dog I want what I want, otherwise I will go to rescue...
> which I have in the past.
> Anyway, there is no big deal about baby doll faces. They've been around for many, many, many years and will most likely
> continue to be. They're not as easily found as the longer muzzle so it may seem they are sought out more when, in
> ...


I agree with this. It's all subjective anyway- as to what your tastes are, what you prefer or like. What some people like, I don't find so pretty and vice versa. Also I don't see a problem with people having different preferences either. "Baby doll faces" have been around for a while and seemingly are rare to actually find, so I would think that they haven't changed the breed so much (yet).

Also, I've never seen a Malt here that looked anything like a Shih Tzu! I think they're all cute whether they're long, moderate or short muzzled!


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jan 31 2010, 05:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879585


> I think all Malts are beautiful. I haven't ever seen a Malt that I didn't think was adorable, beautiful, stunning, gorgeous, or all of the above.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting one with a "baby-doll" head. Personally, I love the look of Malts with a short muzzle, wide eye set, and humongous eyes. This is exactly the look I'm wanting in my next fluff.
> 
> *pinkpixie, have you spoken to Bonnie Palmer (Angel Maltese)? A lot of her fluffs have short muzzles with a wider eye set. You mentioned you're wanting to add one in April/May. Perhaps she'll have one for you then.*[/B]


Yes, I've emailed her and she asked me to call, but so far the phone has been busy. I'll keep trying. But, if what I hear about her pricing is true (having gone up quite a lot in the fall), she may be out of reach financially. I have seen some of hers that have been exactly what I want, though. *fingers crossed*


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (pinkpixie1588 @ Jan 31 2010, 07:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879600


> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jan 31 2010, 05:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879585





> I think all Malts are beautiful. I haven't ever seen a Malt that I didn't think was adorable, beautiful, stunning, gorgeous, or all of the above.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting one with a "baby-doll" head. Personally, I love the look of Malts with a short muzzle, wide eye set, and humongous eyes. This is exactly the look I'm wanting in my next fluff.
> 
> *pinkpixie, have you spoken to Bonnie Palmer (Angel Maltese)? A lot of her fluffs have short muzzles with a wider eye set. You mentioned you're wanting to add one in April/May. Perhaps she'll have one for you then.*[/B]


Yes, I've emailed her and she asked me to call, but so far the phone has been busy. I'll keep trying. But, if what I hear about her pricing is true (having gone up quite a lot in the fall), she may be out of reach financially. I have seen some of hers that have been exactly what I want, though. *fingers crossed*
[/B][/QUOTE]

Since you are contacting Bonnie, I just want to add that Bonnie's pictures are always very unflattering. Her puppies are always much much cuter than she will lead you to believe. _ Generally speaking and from what I've seen_, Korean breeders have much better photography skills than American ones. That is something you might want to keep in mind as you compare photos from one breeder against another's.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jan 30 2010, 01:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879147


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145





> I am going to step way out here, and ask a question that has been bothering me for quite some time now. What is all this "baby doll face" obsession about? I love the Maltese face. Just the way it is!! The breed standard calls for:
> *Head*
> *Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. The muzzle is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy.The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.*
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: 

Great posts,I'm glad someone posted this. I agree. I was reading the breed standard and it specificly states muzzle size. I think we go a great disservice to the breed trying for custom looks that weren't meant to be part of the Maltese breed,like teacup size and baby face and wide set eyes. Personally I think they all have angel faces to me and they're beautiful as nature intended.
There for a while I was thinking my kids weren't good enough until I read the standards and they fit in pretty close,not perfect but closer than I thought. Rylee,my rescue is the exception,he's too tiny and more of the babydoll face,not close to standard and very delicate,I have to be so careful w/ him. He was bred for looks not health. Granted he's adorable and cute as the dickens and more of a cuddle bug than my girls are but not to standard.... but I love the little man. He's a good example of how breeders bred away from standard and this poor little guy is paying the price.
The babydoll face is cute,really but I'd rather stick to standard or as close as I can.
I would rather have a healthy ,happy Malt than a perfect one.

My husband just saw an advert in the paper for Maltese pups,$300 for males,$400 for females,I've never seen them that cheap,makes me wonder.....I thought about calling ,but afraid of whatI might find or see.....



For example, The English Bulldog. 

I really think that all Malts are very adorable and their personalities/temperaments are far more important than their looks. Sort of like humans, too....
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## jen_hedz (Mar 5, 2008)

QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 31 2010, 08:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879634


> QUOTE (pinkpixie1588 @ Jan 31 2010, 07:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879600





> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jan 31 2010, 05:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879585





> I think all Malts are beautiful. I haven't ever seen a Malt that I didn't think was adorable, beautiful, stunning, gorgeous, or all of the above.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting one with a "baby-doll" head. Personally, I love the look of Malts with a short muzzle, wide eye set, and humongous eyes. This is exactly the look I'm wanting in my next fluff.
> 
> *pinkpixie, have you spoken to Bonnie Palmer (Angel Maltese)? A lot of her fluffs have short muzzles with a wider eye set. You mentioned you're wanting to add one in April/May. Perhaps she'll have one for you then.*[/B]


Yes, I've emailed her and she asked me to call, but so far the phone has been busy. I'll keep trying. But, if what I hear about her pricing is true (having gone up quite a lot in the fall), she may be out of reach financially. I have seen some of hers that have been exactly what I want, though. *fingers crossed*
[/B][/QUOTE]

*Since you are contacting Bonnie, I just want to add that Bonnie's pictures are always very unflattering. Her puppies are always much much cuter than she will lead you to believe. *_ Generally speaking and from what I've seen_, Korean breeders have much better photography skills than American ones. That is something you might want to keep in mind as you compare photos from one breeder against another's.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I will second this :biggrin: I loved the pics that I got of Lexi and I thought she was adorable but when I finally saw her in person I was amazed at how beautiful she was, bonnie's pictures did not do her justice at all!


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 31 2010, 10:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879634


> Since you are contacting Bonnie, I just want to add that Bonnie's pictures are always very unflattering. Her puppies are always much much cuter than she will lead you to believe. _ Generally speaking and from what I've seen_, Korean breeders have much better photography skills than American ones. That is something you might want to keep in mind as you compare photos from one breeder against another's.[/B]


I'll definitely take that into consideration, thanks! I've noticed the awesome, high quality pics from the Korean breeders. I've yet to see an American breeder with that same quality photography, but I'm trying to look past that.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

I wish I could combine all in one. There is a "look" I adore. My Joplin, Foster Nubi, and Foster Coby. 

Yet Raul is our "ugly" man. Although he's a mix, I would not trade him for the world. He flippin' rocks.

My pics, also look like crap, but they are the most precious of souls. Yep, inside and out.

But yep, if I'm spending 5K on a dog, I would certainly want what I want. "I want", with looks, and temperarment.

Otherwise, I would turn to rescue, for the perfect match. Many perfect matches are out there. I've found many for my family,
which was a simple donation fee, and the perfect match.


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## mrs10 (Feb 21, 2007)

Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos. If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.


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## remy (Jul 9, 2009)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Jan 31 2010, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951


> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos. If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


your shinemore malt is gorgeous!!! :wub:


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

*Swoon* That Maltese is STUNNING!!! :wub: :wub: :wub:


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## Snow White (Dec 6, 2009)

QUOTE (pinkpixie1588 @ Jan 31 2010, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879772


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 31 2010, 10:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879634





> Since you are contacting Bonnie, I just want to add that Bonnie's pictures are always very unflattering. Her puppies are always much much cuter than she will lead you to believe. _ Generally speaking and from what I've seen_, Korean breeders have much better photography skills than American ones. That is something you might want to keep in mind as you compare photos from one breeder against another's.[/B]


I'll definitely take that into consideration, thanks! I've noticed the awesome, high quality pics from the Korean breeders. I've yet to see an American breeder with that same quality photography, but I'm trying to look past that. 
[/B][/QUOTE]


Sophia, I am getting the impression you are swaying us towards US breeders. Why is that when you just got a girl from Shinemore?


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Jan 31 2010, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951


> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos. If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


hmm. picture one: gorgeous. :wub: 


picture two: also gorgeous. 

if i can get that sort of consistency, i'll be happy.


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## mrs10 (Feb 21, 2007)

They change as they grow and you have to keep up with them. You know most breeders keep their best dogs, sell the second best to show homes for a lot of money and then what's left to pet homes for less money. 

I think too often, peoples expectation on what their pet dog should look like is just unattainable for the price they want to spend. IMHO.

Thanks for the compliments on my girl. We love her no matter what.


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951


> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos. If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


Your little girl is *gorgeous*!! Congratulations! Is she new?

By the way, I think your post above is twisting what Sophia said or anyone else for that matter. She said that the Koreans have better photography skills- which I believe they do. That's not insulting at all. Also that is very different from what you said about doctoring and fixing photos. Please let's not twist words around to say entirely different things (or read them into other things).


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Jan 31 2010, 10:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880001


> They change as they grow and you have to keep up with them. You know most breeders keep their best dogs, sell the second best to show homes for a lot of money and then what's left to pet homes for less money.
> 
> *I think too often, peoples expectation on what their pet dog should look like is just unattainable for the price they want to spend. IMHO.
> *
> Thanks for the compliments on my girl. We love her no matter what.[/B]


Your girl is absolutely stunning. Another thing that people don't realize that happens, is with the smaller maltese, the movement is compromised. They don't always have the structure that they could have.

Not all Breeder's sell their second best to show homes for lot's of money. I still think that if you are paying big bucks ($3 to 5,000) for a show dog or you want a near show dog, then you need to go to the kennels that *consistently* produce BIS and BISS and Group Placing Maltese. Those breeder's have earned the right to ask a big price for their dogs. It all comes down to $$. Someone with really nice Maltese might not have the $40 to 50,000 a year it takes to show their dogs consistently. That is what it takes to have dogs who have been shown to BIS. You have to be ready to fork over a heafty price for them. Not every one is lucky enough to be in the right place, right time, and finish a dog in a 4 day weekend. I've seen it happen. Just not often. 
Good luck on your search for the perfect Maltese. 
JMO
Tina


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## mrs10 (Feb 21, 2007)

I think I understood that she thinks their photography skills are better. I was trying to say that there are plenty of breeders here in the U.S. that have great photography skills too. I was just giving an example of what I received and also what I took at home with my limited skills. I guess that generalization didn't sit well with me. Even positive racial generalizations are still racial generalizations.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Jan 31 2010, 10:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880029


> I think I understood that she thinks their photography skills are better. I was trying to say that there are plenty of breeders here in the U.S. that have great photography skills too. I was just giving an example of what I received and also what I took at home with my limited skills. I guess that generalization didn't sit well with me. Even positive racial generalizations are still racial generalizations.[/B]


I've also seen some STUNNING photography from various breeders but most consistently with the breeders such as Shinemore and Sunnydales. The expressions they capture are incredible. I love just looking at all their photos of all their dogs.

Sierra is stunning and I can't wait to see you guys in the ring soon!


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 01:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880029


> I think I understood that she thinks their photography skills are better. I was trying to say that there are plenty of breeders here in the U.S. that have great photography skills too. I was just giving an example of what I received and also what I took at home with my limited skills. I guess that generalization didn't sit well with me. Even positive racial generalizations are still racial generalizations.[/B]


Did you just mean that to say that the Korean breeders have good photography skills is a racial generalization?? That is really insulting to the grave injustice of actual racial generalizations. Are you serious?

I understand what you were trying to say about your Shinemore photos and she's still gorgeous at home. I got my girl from Korea..and her breeder photos were amazing...very beautiful and they looked very professional..and she still looks like that at home- of course I'm not a professional photographer and I don't take professional photos- but she looked the same when I brought her home as she did in the breeder's photos. But again, to say someone has great photography skills is not an insult and that does not necessarily imply that anything has been fixed either- And has nothing to do with race.

I'm really not trying to be a pain here, but to add in those implications...and then to say it was a racial generalization is really off the hook to me.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Jan 31 2010, 09:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951


> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos. If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


She's beautiful :wub: in both photos and looks like the same pretty girl in both. I guess I'm confused...were you expecting your dog to be something different based on the photo you got? Are you saying Shinemore doctors up their photos to make the dogs look differently? I was under the impression that they had excellent photography skills and adjusting lighting, etc but have never heard of them actually changing a dogs features. Just asking for clarity I guess


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## mrs10 (Feb 21, 2007)

I am very happy with my Shinemore pup, she is everything I hoped for and more. I saw her show her (shinemore) dogs at Nationals and was very impressed. They were beautiful. I was just posting an example of my purchase.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 12:39 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880049


> I am very happy with my Shinemore pup, she is everything I hoped for and more. I saw her show her (shinemore) dogs at Nationals and was very impressed. They were beautiful. I was just posting an example of my purchase.[/B]


oh okay. Thanks for clarifying. Your baby is beautiful. I was curious because I'm very interested in getting a puppy from Shinemore


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Jan 31 2010, 11:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880015


> QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951





> I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos..[/B]


By the way, I think your post above is twisting what Sophia said or anyone else for that matter. *She said that the Koreans have better photography skills- which I believe they do.* That's not insulting at all. Also that is very different from what you said about doctoring and fixing photos. Please let's not twist words around to say entirely different things (or read them into other things).
[/B][/QUOTE]

:blink:  :blink: 

Thanks, Andrea. :ThankYou:


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Feb 1 2010, 01:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880045


> Did you just mean that to say that the Korean breeders have good photography skills is a racial generalization?? *That is really insulting to the grave injustice of actual racial generalizations.* Are you serious?
> 
> But again, to say someone has great photography skills is not an insult and that does not necessarily imply that anything has been fixed either- And has nothing to do with race.
> 
> I'm really not trying to be a pain here, but to add in those implications...and then to say it was a racial generalization is really off the hook to me.[/B]


 :smrofl: :smrofl: :smrofl:


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (jen_hedz @ Jan 31 2010, 01:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879707


> QUOTE (princessre @ Jan 31 2010, 08:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879634





> QUOTE (pinkpixie1588 @ Jan 31 2010, 07:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879600





> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jan 31 2010, 05:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879585





> I think all Malts are beautiful. I haven't ever seen a Malt that I didn't think was adorable, beautiful, stunning, gorgeous, or all of the above.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting one with a "baby-doll" head. Personally, I love the look of Malts with a short muzzle, wide eye set, and humongous eyes. This is exactly the look I'm wanting in my next fluff.
> 
> *pinkpixie, have you spoken to Bonnie Palmer (Angel Maltese)? A lot of her fluffs have short muzzles with a wider eye set. You mentioned you're wanting to add one in April/May. Perhaps she'll have one for you then.*[/B]


Yes, I've emailed her and she asked me to call, but so far the phone has been busy. I'll keep trying. But, if what I hear about her pricing is true (having gone up quite a lot in the fall), she may be out of reach financially. I have seen some of hers that have been exactly what I want, though. *fingers crossed*
[/B][/QUOTE]

*Since you are contacting Bonnie, I just want to add that Bonnie's pictures are always very unflattering. Her puppies are always much much cuter than she will lead you to believe. *_ Generally speaking and from what I've seen_, Korean breeders have much better photography skills than American ones. That is something you might want to keep in mind as you compare photos from one breeder against another's.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I will second this :biggrin: I loved the pics that I got of Lexi and I thought she was adorable but when I finally saw her in person I was amazed at how beautiful she was, bonnie's pictures did not do her justice at all!
[/B][/QUOTE]

To give you a visual of what Jen and I are speaking of, here are pictures of Casanova (top row) and Leah (bottom row). First column is Bonnie's picture that she sent us before we bought our pups. Second column is the pics we took when the pups came home. The third column is how the pups turned out. You will see that Bonnie's pictures are downright terrible compared to how cute the pups are in our pics and when they grew up. This is to help you in knowing that some breeders take much better pictures than others!
[attachment=61431hoto_co...son_copy.jpg]


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

Structure - you can never change actual structure BUT you can change the look/appearance of structure of your dog through various haircuts, lengths, etc. For example. I got Hunter through a great "breeder"; its called the Animal Welfare Society. He was estimated to be 6 years old and had been dumped at the shelter twice.

Hunter's First Night At Home - he looks like a cross between a westie and a malt. His eyes appear VERY wideset (so much that they look like they are going to fall off his face. (Dec. 2007)









Taken in Sept. 2008 this one shows Hunter with cropped ears and squinty eyes which really makes his muzzle look large and in charge.










This one taken in August 2009 with longer beard and mustach (please ignore arrows - this was for haircut) his muzzle looks much shorter and "baby doll esq."









In this photo, his eyes still appear wide but since his ears have dropped and there is hair on them and his muzzle has filled in, he still has the "baby doll" look - but his muzzle still appears to be present (not smooched) Sept. 2009









In reality - hair & photography skills/angles can mask a lot. Here is Hunter without hair due to a needed shave down back in January 2008. I think this shows his TRUE structure better than anything else.


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## notori (Mar 21, 2005)

QUOTE (mrs10 @ Jan 31 2010, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951


> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos. If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


Beautiful! beautiful! Lee has great dogs.
Char


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Feb 1 2010, 11:08 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880132


> Structure - you can never change actual structure BUT you can change the look/appearance of structure of your dog through various haircuts, lengths, etc. For example. I got Hunter through a great "breeder"; its called the Animal Welfare Society. He was estimated to be 6 years old and had been dumped at the shelter twice.
> 
> Hunter's First Night At Home - he looks like a cross between a westie and a malt. His eyes appear VERY wideset (so much that they look like they are going to fall off his face. (Dec. 2007)
> 
> ...


Awww....Erin!! Hunter looks absolutely adorable no matter what cut! I'm so glad you found each other! You're right! The Animal Welfare Society is the greatest breeder of all!!! 

xoxoxo


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

aww....thanks Sophia! I just wanted to realy emphasize that looks can be changed with haircuts and styles (much like a person) but also indicate that Hunter didn't come from a breeder ! I do love our local shelter - they are really great with the dogs they bring in. 


BACK TO TOPIC


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

:back2topic: 

Don't want to get carried away with the dicussion this post has taken -- from "should we breed baby doll heads" to "do Koreans really take better pictures". :biggrin: 

Many have encouraged you to look for a teenagers or older puppy. I just want to remind everyone that, just like skin kids, puppies also go through the "uglies". When I was breeding Lhasas, I could never stand to look at my puppies between 7 - 9 months of age. They always looked really ugly to me during this time. I had to just trust in myself that the ones I had liked at birth, at 5 weeks and at 6 months would turn around and be beautiful again after they were 9 months old.

Just staying that the breeder should know her lines' "ugly" stage, and should be able to point that out to you.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Feb 1 2010, 08:08 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880132


> Taken in Sept. 2008 this one shows Hunter with cropped ears and squinty eyes which really makes his muzzle look large and in charge.[/B]


You adopted a dog from a humane organization and then cropped its ears? I'm stunned. I have adopted "bat eared" miniature schnauzers and have loved their, ummm, unique look! Maybe I misunderstood you. I hope so.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (mss @ Feb 1 2010, 05:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880320


> QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Feb 1 2010, 08:08 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880132





> Taken in Sept. 2008 this one shows Hunter with cropped ears and squinty eyes which really makes his muzzle look large and in charge.[/B]


You adopted a dog from a humane organization and then cropped its ears? I'm stunned. I have adopted "bat eared" miniature schnauzers and have loved their, ummm, unique look! Maybe I misunderstood you. I hope so. 



[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you are thinking "cropped" as in "docked" (like docking the ears of Great Danes)? I read this to mean that Erin was saying that the HAIR on Hunter's ears was cropped, meaning trimmed short.

MaryH


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## 08chrissy08 (Sep 19, 2008)

QUOTE (mss @ Feb 1 2010, 02:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880320


> QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Feb 1 2010, 08:08 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880132





> Taken in Sept. 2008 this one shows Hunter with cropped ears and squinty eyes which really makes his muzzle look large and in charge.[/B]


You adopted a dog from a humane organization and then cropped its ears? I'm stunned. I have adopted "bat eared" miniature schnauzers and have loved their, ummm, unique look! Maybe I misunderstood you. I hope so.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I think she just meant the hair cut, not actually cropping his ears!


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

_<span style="font-family:Century Gothic">You adopted a dog from a humane organization and then cropped its ears? I'm stunned. I have adopted "bat eared" miniature schnauzers and have loved their, ummm, unique look! Maybe I misunderstood you. I hope so. _</span>


This demonstrates one of the reasons I am ALWAYS hesitant to post anything on this forum unless its to say "beautiful photo" or "really liked that product" something along those lines. I think the picture CLEARLY shows that my dogs HAIR has been cut short (like a cropped haircut) - not that I cut his ears physically in any manner.

Secondly, since I was pretty clear in my post that you can't change *physical structure *but you can change the look/appearance with changes with *haircuts* and *styling* - I think your post was inappropriate and perhaps an attempt to cause controversy. :smmadder:


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

No, I'm not trying to cause controversy. It's just that "cropped" is the term used to refer to the surgical removal of part of the external ear of dogs. It is done to many types of dogs including schnauzers, terriers of different sizes, Great Danes. Many people are against it and it is not allowed anymore in many countries. I suppose if a person is not familiar with those types of dogs, they may not realize that.

No, I'm not trying to cause controfersy. 

I don't come here often and just stopped in again to read up on breeders, rescues, etc. since my Maltese died in my arms Saturday.

Forget I said anything.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

QUOTE (mss @ Feb 1 2010, 07:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880357


> I don't come here often and just stopped in again to read up on breeders, rescues, etc. since my Maltese died in my arms Saturday.[/B]


I am deeply sorry to hear about the passing of your maltese...


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## notori (Mar 21, 2005)

QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Jan 31 2010, 11:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880015


> QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951





> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are better at fixing photos. If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


Your little girl is *gorgeous*!! Congratulations! Is she new?

By the way, I think your post above is twisting what Sophia said or anyone else for that matter. She said that the Koreans have better photography skills- which I believe they do. That's not insulting at all. Also that is very different from what you said about doctoring and fixing photos. Please let's not twist words around to say entirely different things (or read them into other things).
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really??? I think you are twisting what was said.


Char


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## notori (Mar 21, 2005)

QUOTE (mss @ Feb 1 2010, 06:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880356


> No, I'm not trying to cause controversy. It's just that "cropped" is the term used to refer to the surgical removal of part of the external ear of dogs. It is done to many types of dogs including schnauzers, terriers of different sizes, Great Danes. Many people are against it and it is not allowed anymore in many countries. I suppose if a person is not familiar with those types of dogs, they may not realize that.
> 
> No, I'm not trying to cause controfersy.
> 
> ...


This is why breeders don't post on this forum. Also , Tina, if you are lucky to get second best, you will still pay 3500. to 5000.
char


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

QUOTE (notori @ Feb 2 2010, 11:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880435


> QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Jan 31 2010, 11:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880015





> QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951





> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are *better at fixing photos. *If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


Your little girl is *gorgeous*!! Congratulations! Is she new?

By the way, I think your post above is twisting what Sophia said or anyone else for that matter. She said that the Koreans have better photography skills- which I believe they do. That's not insulting at all. Also that is very different from what you said about doctoring and fixing photos. Please let's not twist words around to say entirely different things (or read them into other things).
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really??? I think you are twisting what was said.


Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I'm not twisting anything.. Some said so and so has "great photography skills" and that does not equate to being "better at fixing photos". she also used the word doctoring. Fixing and doctoring are not equal to 'great photography skills'. Of course think what you want, but when I see someone actually using other words/meanings to imply something else, I find that very unfair and gaming playing. Regardless, surely all of this has become boring by now? It's off topic anyway.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Feb 1 2010, 10:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880448


> QUOTE (notori @ Feb 2 2010, 11:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880435





> QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Jan 31 2010, 11:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880015





> QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951





> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are *better at fixing photos. *If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


Your little girl is *gorgeous*!! Congratulations! Is she new?

By the way, I think your post above is twisting what Sophia said or anyone else for that matter. She said that the Koreans have better photography skills- which I believe they do. That's not insulting at all. Also that is very different from what you said about doctoring and fixing photos. Please let's not twist words around to say entirely different things (or read them into other things).
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really??? I think you are twisting what was said.


Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I'm not twisting anything.. Some said so and so has "great photography skills" and that does not equate to being "better at fixing photos". she also used the word doctoring. Fixing and doctoring are not equal to 'great photography skills'. Of course think what you want, but when I see someone actually using other words/meanings to imply something else, I find that very unfair and gaming playing. Regardless, surely all of this has become boring by now? It's off topic anyway.
[/B][/QUOTE]

How much clearer can we be in English? In my post, I said "great photography skills," which is not the same as "doctoring" and "fixing." :smilie_tischkante:


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## mrs10 (Feb 21, 2007)

_*Removed by Administrator...

Information gleaned from PMs should not be posted here. *_


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## notori (Mar 21, 2005)

QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Feb 1 2010, 11:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880448


> QUOTE (notori @ Feb 2 2010, 11:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880435





> QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Jan 31 2010, 11:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=880015





> QUOTE (mrs10 @ Feb 1 2010, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879951





> Here are photos of my Shinemore pup. The first one is what I received from the breeder and the second is in my living room taken by me. I think that there are some breeders who are better at doctoring their photos and some that aren't. I don't think it is fair to say Korean, Japanese, English, South African or whatever are *better at fixing photos. *If you want to be sure you are getting what you want you need to visit the breeder and see yourself.[/B]


Your little girl is *gorgeous*!! Congratulations! Is she new?

By the way, I think your post above is twisting what Sophia said or anyone else for that matter. She said that the Koreans have better photography skills- which I believe they do. That's not insulting at all. Also that is very different from what you said about doctoring and fixing photos. Please let's not twist words around to say entirely different things (or read them into other things).
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really??? I think you are twisting what was said.


Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I'm not twisting anything.. Some said so and so has "great photography skills" and that does not equate to being "better at fixing photos". she also used the word doctoring. Fixing and doctoring are not equal to 'great photography skills'. Of course think what you want, but when I see someone actually using other words/meanings to imply something else, I find that very unfair and gaming playing. Regardless, surely all of this has become boring by now? It's off topic anyway.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Off topic really....wow...lol, boring...yes!
Char


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

I look at the pictures of when you first brought Hunter home ... and, how happy and healthy Hunter looks now. Bless your heart, Erin. :tender:


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Erin, those pics of Hunter are adorable!! What a cutie pie ~ :wub: 

You are absolutely right. Hair, and different cuts, certainly make a difference. 

Gosh, you've done such a good job with our wee little Hunter. Lovies ~ :grouphug:


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Lighting, reflectors, height of camera and angle can all soften and change the look to some degree.
It can also make a dog whiter or darker, etc. It can put sparkle in the eyes that an every day 
amature photographer wouldn't get.
Grooming can mask a muzzle to a certain extent, whether it's the fan cut or the lens angle or the
poof of the topknot.
Covering stains isn't a sin, but telling a prospective buyer there are no stains and then masking them
with chalk or what have you is misleading. Why can't a seller simply say pups get stains with teething?
We, who have been here awhile, know most pups do. It's not a crime but being less than honest is
false advertising.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I agree. It is amazing how much beauty a lot of Love :heart: can bring out. This is a wonderful example of how dogs can blossom in the right hands. Hugs to you and Hunter, Erin. :tender:


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jan 30 2010, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879145


> I see some pictures posted here of Maltese that are starting to look like tiny shih tzu's to me. And if you are wanting a wonderful cuddly temperament, please do not exclude males. They are the most cuddly, devoted dogs.
> 
> Hope I don't offend anyone, but I would hate to see breeders start to breed away from the standard due to the demands of the public. That has really damaged some wonderful breeds IMHO.[/B]


I wonder if BYB's will start to breed more Shih Tzus and Malts together to _try_ to replicate that look. :shocked: *Of course*, it wouldn't ever come close to a Malt with baby doll features. :no2: 
All of the Malts here with babydoll features are so adorable. :wub: 


QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jan 30 2010, 04:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=879267


> Cadeau IMHO (or maybe not so humble) has a perfect head/face. The judges often commented on this as one of their favorite features. He is not what I would call babydoll. His muzzle and eyeset combination is the "perfect" triangle. His eyes are large, but in proportion to everything on his face.[/B]


I LOVE the triangle look to the proportions. The symmetry of the upside down triangle is so perfect. Like you could use a ruler and measure an exact triangle. I read that humans are biologically programmed to like symmetry in features (like the triangle). And I also read that Babydoll face on dogs reminds humans of babies, so we are programmed to love them, too. They are so cute! I hadn't seen many babydoll faces until I joined SM, and now I see why they are so precious! Such cute faces! :innocent: 
I love all Malt faces! :wub2:

Hunter's pics are great! :thumbsup:


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## mrs10 (Feb 21, 2007)

*Removed by Administrator...

Information gleaned from PMs should not be posted here. *


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Okay...was wondering since I didn't see anything about this in this thread. I guess I'm really curious to know about this because I'm very interested in purchasing a Shinemore puppy later this year. Obviously the idea of buying from someone out of the country makes me really nervous but have only heard great things about Shinemore so far. I think Bijou is one of the most beautiful Maltese puppies I've seen...in both her breeder's photos and Sophia's photos. From what I read, the purchase was all positive which made me more comfortable with looking to buy from Shinemore...but if anyone has had a bad experience with them, please let me know


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

[attachment=61459:closed.gif]

_*I have gone through and cleaned up this thread so some of you may see your posts removed because they referred to other posts that I removed. 

I am leaving this thread up but have closed it.

I want to remind you all that information received in a PM should be kept private. 

And if you PM someone asking a question, it is only good manners to be totally honest with why you are seeking the information; i.e., no hidden agendas. We don't think highly of game playing around here.*_


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