# Anyone elses vet told them raw can harm kidneys & kill Maltese breed???



## LOVE_BABY (May 5, 2015)

*Has anyone else's vet told them this about feeding Maltese raw harming their kidneys & then killing them? *Baby my 7 lb. Maltese dog just visited the vet due to this listeria scare with the raw Stella & Chewy's food. My vet was very angry I was feeding the raw:angry: at all, and actually told me that I would kill :faint: my boy by feeding him bacteria free raw & that any raw will harm his kidneys. He told me the Maltese have been a domesticated lap dog for thousands of years & haven't eaten raw in thousands of years. He told me my dog is as close to being like a wolf as he is to being like an elephant & then he pointed to a photo of an elephant on the wall of the examining room.... 
Wondering what you all have heard & what do you think?

{P.S. so far Baby doesn't seem sick from the Listeria tainted food he ate. & _YES HE DID_ eat a 'tainted' batch. 
*Lot 111-15, Date 4-23-15, UPC 1866011000045}*


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## lydiatug (Feb 21, 2012)

My holistic vet is happy I feed Stell & Chewy. It depends on what the dog has been eating during its life and whether or not they have a healthy immune system (my Bayleigh has vaccine induced immune issues and can not eat raw). 

For healthy dogs, she has a protocol to get their gut ready for truly "raw" diets. She said no raw is like that of "dogs in the wild" as they kill and consume live food, but raw or freeze dried raw is still better than kibble. Kibble has had lots of salmonella & listeria recalls as well as ingredients that are known not to be healthy for our pets. 

Your vet sounds to me like he is trying to use "scare tactics" to make you uncomfortable with your choices...not my idea of a vet willing to work with an informed client that is interested in alternatives to kibble. 

I have the same problem with vets who are not willing to discuss their vaccination protocols and work with me on limited vaccines. I have a vet I love and have been with for 20+ years, but he is still not completely convinced. He does, however, have the conversation with me, without trying to scare me into compliance.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

There are a lot of conflicting opinions about feeding raw. I used to agree that dogs are not like wolves and wouldn't benefit from a raw diet. But, I tend to believe what is logical. What is logical to me is that kibble is difficult to digest and hard on the kidneys. There is a lot of nonsense out there about the danger of bacteria in raw food. They talk as if we don't handle raw meat for ourselves all the time. I eat beef and lamb VERY rare, pork medium rare, poultry just done...and fish often just seared. People eat raw fish all the time. 

You know that kibble has been recalled over and over. You know that some of the HUGE kibble producers have continued selling food that has given thousands of dogs kidney failure. You may not know that there is something of war on raw food by the FDA...and I would not be in the least bit surprised to learn that the Huge food companies are behind it. 

Raw Dog Food FDA

Your vet sounds very old fashioned and conservative. Actually, what he said is completely false. A dog is much more closely related to a wolf than an elephant. Elephants are herbivores, while dogs and wolves are carnivores. That was a ridiculous analogy, but coming from a vet it is really a totally irresponsible statement. And, yes, Maltese have been lap dogs for many centuries, but they have not been eating kibble for more than a few decades. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they were fed the scraps of uncooked meat for centuries before. Personally, I'd switch Baby's vet, and keep feeding him raw. 

For me, it comes down to this: the frozen raw food I give my dogs looks, smells, and feels like real food. Kibble looks, smells, and feels like very processed food.


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## lydiatug (Feb 21, 2012)

:goodpost:



Sylie said:


> There are a lot of conflicting opinions about feeding raw. I used to agree that dogs are not like wolves and wouldn't benefit from a raw diet. But, I tend to believe what is logical. What is logical to me is that kibble is difficult to digest and hard on the kidneys. There is a lot of nonsense out there about the danger of bacteria in raw food. They talk as if we don't handle raw meat for ourselves all the time. I eat beef and lamb VERY rare, pork medium rare, poultry just done...and fish often just seared. People eat raw fish all the time.
> 
> You know that kibble has been recalled over and over. You know that some of the HUGE kibble producers have continued selling food that has given thousands of dogs kidney failure. You may not know that there is something of war on raw food by the FDA...and I would not be in the least bit surprised to learn that the Huge food companies are behind it.
> 
> ...


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## pickles9 (Jan 9, 2014)

My vet tried to steer me away from raw as well. I thought she said because of potential liver problems. I did a lot of research on raw food diet for dogs (I feed a combination of Primal Chicken and Stella & Chewy Beef in dehydrated) and my conclusion was it was way better than kibble and my very reputable breeder agreed! My vet hasn't opened her mouth again about it as all his blood panels have been good.


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## Chardy (Oct 30, 2008)

Sylie said:


> There are a lot of conflicting opinions about feeding raw. I used to agree that dogs are not like wolves and wouldn't benefit from a raw diet. But, I tend to believe what is logical. What is logical to me is that kibble is difficult to digest and hard on the kidneys. There is a lot of nonsense out there about the danger of bacteria in raw food. They talk as if we don't handle raw meat for ourselves all the time. I eat beef and lamb VERY rare, pork medium rare, poultry just done...and fish often just seared. People eat raw fish all the time.
> 
> You know that kibble has been recalled over and over. You know that some of the HUGE kibble producers have continued selling food that has given thousands of dogs kidney failure. You may not know that there is something of war on raw food by the FDA...and I would not be in the least bit surprised to learn that the Huge food companies are behind it.
> 
> ...


Nice post Syl- 

I just want to add that at one time Maltese were bred to kill rats.. yes.. that is a fact.. can you imagine??:faint: Maybe they sat on the laps of the rich and when they saw a rat they jumped off and got the rat :HistericalSmiley:

The only thing I don't like about feeding raw or feeding kibble or anything commercial, IS THE FACT I DO NOT HAVE CONTROL---Unless we feed our fur babies by home cooking the food. Example: Purchase your free range, grass fed, organic, no antibiotics, no gmo, protein and veggies and cook it enough (flash) to make sure you kill the bacteria. With that being said, our dogs gi tract is acidic enough so they can handle it raw but by flash cooking it you CAN take away that worry- but that is the only way. Not by feeding kibble or any other commercial. 

Conventional vets will not be promoting raw food until they can sell it-- and for the vet that has those views that were mentioned in the above post are false. I bet he would be happy to sell you something he has. Ask him to recommend something to you-- see what he recommends:thumbsup: Then go get the rating on the food.. Nutrition is out of date for most vets and it was a small part of their education. 

If you don't feel comfortable feeding raw then do don't do it. It's just that simple, do what YOU think is best for you-- I fed raw and will continue because my Bim's is doing awesome on it!


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

The only 3 vets I have seen have been strong advocates for raw, or home cooked, I am happier to home cook, mainly because I have kissy dogs. 
This link is from one local one. 
Two veterinarians write on the topic of raw diet, is it safe or not?


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Chardy said:


> Nice post Syl-
> 
> *I just want to add that at one time Maltese were bred to kill rats.. yes.. that is a fact.. can you imagine??:faint: Maybe they sat on the laps of the rich and when they saw a rat they jumped off and got the rat :HistericalSmiley:*


I can attest to this feature. Frank once found in my yard (under the shed) a nest of baby rodents and he dragged them all over the yard and had a great time doing it (I guess he got his raw protein that day!)!! I needless to say was HORRIFIED! :w00t: My hubby however was impressed with Franks manliness (LOL, as if!!)


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

What I have learned over the years is that the less a vet knows about integrative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, alternative therapies, and general wellness, the more opposed he or she is to raw. Vets who stick with what they learned in the nutrition classes sponsored by Hills, Purina and RC think other brands are bad and highly processed kibble is the best diet for a dog. If that's what your vet thinks, I'd start looking for a new vet. 

Because human immune systems are not as strong as our dogs, there is a slight risk to humans from raw if bacteria is present. For that reason, handle it the same way you would handle any raw product like steak or chicken and wash surfaces, utensils and your hands thoroughly.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

pammy4501 said:


> I can attest to this feature. Frank once found in my yard (under the shed) a nest of baby rodents and he dragged them all over the yard and had a great time doing it (I guess he got his raw protein that day!)!! I needless to say was HORRIFIED! :w00t: My hubby however was impressed with Franks manliness (LOL, as if!!)


I have to laugh, because Lily once caught a gopher and put up a fight to be able to eat it. I thought it was very feminine behavior. Ray pounced on a little mouse and acted shocked and sad that it was totally lifeless in one second, I thought that was typical male woosie behavior. :HistericalSmiley:


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## Chardy (Oct 30, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> I can attest to this feature. Frank once found in my yard (under the shed) a nest of baby rodents and he dragged them all over the yard and had a great time doing it (I guess he got his raw protein that day!)!! I needless to say was HORRIFIED! :w00t: My hubby however was impressed with Franks manliness (LOL, as if!!)[/
> 
> 
> Love Frank... and I can see your hubby is a tad bit out numbered with a house full of women.. well... in CA but maybe not in WI... the boys can take over there!!
> ...


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## lyndy (Jul 9, 2011)

I have fed Daisy raw for at least of couple of years now. She gets a mix of frozen Primal and Honest Kitchen Preference (this lowers the protein for those who are concerned about protein levels). When we travel she gets Stella and Chewy's Freeze dried and the Honest Kitchen. She has done best on this and I will continue to feed her this as long as she does well on it. She is not considered a healthy dog, so I know of other raw feeders who think we should have stopped immediately. In fact, at one point I thought we would have to take her off raw since she had immune issues. My awesome integrative vet said we should keep her on her current food. Other than her known issues, her labs, scans, etc. have been great. Will I feed her raw if it stops working for her? No, but that is how I viewed kibble. It didn't work so we switched. There is a ton of debate about raw food and it is mostly about money. 
You seem to keep a very close eye on Baby. As long as you get yearly blood work and know what your dog's normal is, I think you will be fine. Don't let this vet scare you. From some of your other threads, I think it is time to find a new vet. This is just my opinion, but I do stay away from chicken because I have noticed most food (human and pet) recalls involve chicken. It is not the end of the world if you decide Baby would do better on cooked food, but don't let your vet or even this recall scare you. If you can find a holistic, or even integrative vet, I think you will feel a lot more comfortable and supported in wanting what is best for Baby.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

LOVE_BABY said:


> *Has anyone else's vet told them this about feeding Maltese raw harming their kidneys & then killing them? *Baby my 7 lb. Maltese dog just visited the vet due to this listeria scare with the raw Stella & Chewy's food. My vet was very angry I was feeding the raw:angry: at all, and actually told me that I would kill :faint: my boy by feeding him bacteria free raw & that any raw will harm his kidneys. He told me the Maltese have been a domesticated lap dog for thousands of years & haven't eaten raw in thousands of years. He told me my dog is as close to being like a wolf as he is to being like an elephant & then he pointed to a photo of an elephant on the wall of the examining room....
> Wondering what you all have heard & what do you think?
> 
> {P.S. so far Baby doesn't seem sick from the Listeria tainted food he ate. & _YES HE DID_ eat a 'tainted' batch.
> *Lot 111-15, Date 4-23-15, UPC 1866011000045}*


I feel the same way as your vet..I would never feed raw to a Maltese..having said that, there are some vets, especially holistic ones that think it is great..


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

LOL. Oh, I don't really not where to begin. Honestly I don't.

Vets-if they give any hint of promoting a raw diet may be found liable if family members or children and so on and so on get sick as a result of raw feeding. Because of this many are very much against raw feeding alltogether. Keep in mind there are a dozen or more ways of feeding a raw diet.

Stella and Chewys undergoes a process which is supposed to kill the bacteria that can make us all sick. This is a good company but crud happens and it has. This can happen to any company. I don't know why people are wigging out about this-am I the only one who has heard of all the recent human food recalls regarding listeria? It's not a dog food issue it is a food food issue.

I think your vet overreacted, but I understand why. Take it with a grain of salt. If you want advice on nutrition-a veterinary nutritionist is your best bet.  I wish we had more level headed vets in the field instead of those who just balk at everything that isn't overprocessed and comes in a bag.

There is so much more I could cover but it's time for work


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## Bailey&Me (Mar 8, 2010)

Chardy said:


> Nice post Syl-
> 
> I just want to add that at one time Maltese were bred to kill rats.. yes.. that is a fact.. can you imagine??:faint: Maybe they sat on the laps of the rich and when they saw a rat they jumped off and got the rat :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> ...


I completely agree with what Carol said! Honestly, I would much rather feed my dogs dehydrated or frozen raw food over any kind of kibble...just what I am most comfortable with and what I think is best. If I couldn't feed this type of food (or something similar) for some reason, I would probably home-cook.


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## LOVE_BABY (May 5, 2015)

*Thank you all! Baby also says Thank you & paws up!*

*{Please note:* for the sake of keeping it simple --I got rid of some of the 'indentations of paragraphs' in peoples posts in order to make this reply more 'condensed & easier to read' when I post my replies so that this post isn't so long. _I hope no one minds!_} --:heart:Thank you all for your feedback & support!:aktion033:



lydiatug said:


> My holistic vet is happy I feed Stell & Chewy. It depends on what the dog has been eating during its life and whether or not they have a healthy immune system (my Bayleigh has vaccine induced immune issues and can not eat raw). For healthy dogs, she has a protocol to get their gut ready for truly "raw" diets. She said no raw is like that of "dogs in the wild" as they kill and consume live food, but raw or freeze dried raw is still better than kibble. Kibble has had lots of salmonella & listeria recalls as well as ingredients that are known not to be healthy for our pets. Your vet sounds to me like he is trying to use "scare tactics" to make you uncomfortable with your choices...not my idea of a vet willing to work with an informed client that is interested in alternatives to kibble.
> I have the same problem with vets who are not willing to discuss their vaccination protocols and work with me on limited vaccines. I have a vet I love and have been with for 20+ years, but he is still not completely convinced. He does, however, have the conversation with me, without trying to scare me into compliance.


Thanks for letting me know that your vet approves of raw, _it makes me feel better to hear that_. Yes I think he was probably trying to scare me, either that or he really believes what he says & maybe he's wrong about what he believes is true? He seems very sincere in his convictions. Perhaps he was brainwashed by the dog food companies which sponsored his classes in Vet school as someone else mentioned.



Sylie said:


> There are a lot of conflicting opinions about feeding raw. I used to agree that dogs are not like wolves and wouldn't benefit from a raw diet. But, I tend to believe what is logical. What is logical to me is that kibble is difficult to digest and hard on the kidneys. There is a lot of nonsense out there about the danger of bacteria in raw food. They talk as if we don't handle raw meat for ourselves all the time. I eat beef and lamb VERY rare, pork medium rare, poultry just done...and fish often just seared. People eat raw fish all the time. You know that kibble has been recalled over and over. You know that some of the HUGE kibble producers have continued selling food that has given thousands of dogs kidney failure. You may not know that there is something of war on raw food by the FDA...and I would not be in the least bit surprised to learn that the Huge food companies are behind it.
> 
> Raw Dog Food FDA
> 
> Your vet sounds very old fashioned and conservative. Actually, what he said is completely false. A dog is much more closely related to a wolf than an elephant. Elephants are herbivores, while dogs and wolves are carnivores. That was a ridiculous analogy, but coming from a vet it is really a totally irresponsible statement. And, yes, Maltese have been lap dogs for many centuries, but they have not been eating kibble for more than a few decades. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they were fed the scraps of uncooked meat for centuries before. Personally, I'd switch Baby's vet, and keep feeding him raw. For me, it comes down to this: the frozen raw food I give my dogs look smells, and feels like real food. Kibble looks, smells, and feels like very processed food.


First of all Sylvia, when am I coming to your house for dinner :w00t: lol?! Those things you mentioned are things _I love to eat_ --I'm a bit of a 'foodie' myself I watch Iron chef, food network etc. a lot, love to cook!
Anyway I must bring myself :back2topic:, 
Those conflicting opinions about raw are so confusing to me. Thanks for your feedback! I agree some vets seem to treat raw like Hazmat material when all it really is is raw meat just like we prepare for ourselves. After you mentioned it I read about the kibble causing more kidney problems than the raw which make me feel better about feeding the raw. Yes, I have heard from right here on SM & elsewhere that the FDA doesn't' like the raw, thank you for the link to the FDA article!



lydiatug said:


> :goodpost:





pickles9 said:


> My vet tried to steer me away from raw as well. I thought she said because of potential liver problems. I did a lot of research on raw food diet for dogs (I feed a combination of Primal Chicken and Stella & Chewy Beef in dehydrated) and my conclusion was it was way better than kibble and my very reputable breeder agreed! My vet hasn't opened her mouth again about it as all his blood panels have been good.


Thank you for that reassurance & letting me know his blood panels are good! One thing I noticed is that Baby's tummy doesn't make much noise now that I have been feeding the raw. When I fed the home made his stomach would make so much noise after he ate, gurgling and a lot coming out of his exhaust pipe if you know what I mean :HistericalSmiley:. Funny as his 'exhaust' was seems that he was having more tummy troubles with eating the cooked than the raw. After he eats a meal of raw I hardly hear anything from his belly, I have to put my ear to it to hear anything whereas before he could be sitting on my lap and I could hear it sometimes.



Chardy said:


> Nice post Syl- I just want to add that at one time Maltese were bred to kill rats.. yes.. that is a fact.. can you imagine??:faint: Maybe they sat on the laps of the rich and when they saw a rat they jumped off and got the rat :HistericalSmiley:
> The only thing I don't like about feeding raw or feeding kibble or anything commercial, IS THE FACT I DO NOT HAVE CONTROL---Unless we feed our fur babies by home cooking the food. Example: Purchase your free range, grass fed, organic, no antibiotics, no gmo, protein and veggies and cook it enough (flash) to make sure you kill the bacteria. With that being said, our dogs gi tract is acidic enough so they can handle it raw but by flash cooking it you CAN take away that worry- but that is the only way. Not by feeding kibble or any other commercial. Conventional vets will not be promoting raw food until they can sell it-- and for the vet that has those views that were mentioned in the above post are false. I bet he would be happy to sell you something he has. Ask him to recommend something to you-- see what he recommends:thumbsup: Then go get the rating on the food.. Nutrition is out of date for most vets and it was a small part of their education. If you don't feel comfortable feeding raw then do don't do it. It's just that simple, do what YOU think is best for you-- I fed raw and will continue because my Bim's is doing awesome on it!


I've never heard that before about Maltese catching rats, I've only read that 'Yorkie's' have that type of history. Yorkie's were brought over to England from Scotland & used to catch rats in the factories a long time ago. I've always heard Maltese were elusively 'lap dogs' for about 3 thousand years. Where did you hear this info about Maltese? I'd like to read it, I always like to learn more I don't know about the Maltese breed if I can. 



silverhaven said:


> The only 3 vets I have seen have been strong advocates for raw, or home cooked, I am happier to home cook, mainly because I have kissy dogs.
> This link is from one local one.
> Two veterinarians write on the topic of raw diet, is it safe or not?


Thank you for the link & the reassurance that 3 more vets advocate raw! I used to home cook & have considered going back to it again due to the scare. But it seems like my dogs tummy is quieter when he eats the raw as if he digests it better so I am reluctant to go back to home cooked. But it I do stop the raw home cooked is the way I will go.



pammy4501 said:


> I can attest to this feature. Frank once found in my yard (under the shed) a nest of baby rodents and he dragged them all over the yard and had a great time doing it (I guess he got his raw protein that day!)!! I needless to say was HORRIFIED! :w00t: My hubby however was impressed with Franks manliness (LOL, as if!!)


Funny how some men are about 'manliness' in their male dogs :HistericalSmiley:, my dad is just like that too & loves when his male dogs _{Charlie & Earnie now at the bridge...}_ would do something he considered 'macho'. He tries to get my Maltese boy Baby to 'man up'_ but I prevented that from happening :eusa_hand:._ 



maggieh said:


> What I have learned over the years is that the less a vet knows about integrative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, alternative therapies, and general wellness, the more opposed he or she is to raw. Vets who stick with what they learned in the nutrition classes sponsored by Hills, Purina and RC think other brands are bad and highly processed kibble is the best diet for a dog. If that's what your vet thinks, I'd start looking for a new vet. Because human immune systems are not as strong as our dogs, there is a slight risk to humans from raw if bacteria is present. For that reason, handle it the same way you would handle any raw product like steak or chicken and wash surfaces, utensils and your hands thoroughly.


Thanks for your opinion! Although it's looking more and more that he is probably wrong about this matter of raw feeding, I do think that my vet 'means well', that he 'sincerely believes' the things he is saying & they are probably what he was taught. He began his practice in 1983 so he went to vet school quite a while ago. He was the vet for my first dog which I had a couple of years later OOps! --I'm admitting my age . It is seeming more and more that I need to look for a new vet, if you know of one in New Jersey I'd love to hear about him/her. I know about Dr. Goldstien & am thinking about going to him or one of his other doctors in his clinic. It will be over an hour from here but would be worth the drive even though my Hubby doesn't like traveling into NYC as much as I do, I think we will have to do it.



Sylie said:


> I have to laugh, because Lily once caught a gopher and put up a fight to be able to eat it. I thought it was very feminine behavior. Ray pounced on a little mouse and acted shocked and sad that it was totally lifeless in one second, I thought that was typical male woosie behavior. :HistericalSmiley:


He he he!:smrofl: {but poor gopher } 



Chardy said:


> pammy4501 said:
> 
> 
> > I can attest to this feature. Frank once found in my yard (under the shed) a nest of baby rodents and he dragged them all over the yard and had a great time doing it (I guess he got his raw protein that day!)!! I needless to say was HORRIFIED! :w00t: My hubby however was impressed with Franks manliness (LOL, as if!!)[/
> ...


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