# Breeder



## Bridge (Jun 2, 2005)

I was in the vet's office Saturday, and I saw someone carrying 3 Maltese babies out in a kennel. I asked how much they were, and she said $350. The parents she got from a pet store and bred them. Imagine that. Talk about less than adequate breeding!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Unfortunately, that happens all too often. Most backyard breeders start with pet shop/puppy mill dogs since reputable breeders only sell with a limited registration (spay/neuter contract). 

They think that because they have "papers" and people tell them how gorgeous their dog is, they should let them have puppies. So without any genetic testing or real evaluation of their dog by professionals, they breed it to the dog down the street. 

Who will pay the vet bills vet bills when that puppy turns out to have inherited a genetic disease, a disease that costs over $1,000 in tests just to diagnose? That so-called breeder won't.

Somehow that $350 isn't such a good deal afterall......


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## Bridge (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Sep 19 2005, 02:48 PM
> *Unfortunately, that happens all too often. Most backyard breeders start with pet shop/puppy mill dogs since reputable breeders only sell with a limited registration (spay/neuter contract).
> 
> They think that because they have "papers" and people tell them how gorgeous their dog is, they should let them have puppies. So without any genetic testing or real evaluation of their dog by professionals, they breed it to the dog down the street.
> ...


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Right!!


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## mpd (Jun 2, 2005)

I know some of you will disagree with me, but sometimes healthy pet store pets genetically removed when paired will produce healthier pets than those "show line" dogs. Hybrid vigor? In the quest for the perfect show dog, so much inbreeding goes on that the percentage of health problems just rises. 

Also, I don't know about you, but how can AKC maltese with champion pedigrees end up being 14 pounds (my friend paid $3,000.00 for one of those ) and how can unregistered ones stay within the 4-7 lbs? hmmmm....







Enlighten me please!

Also, some show breeders become very protective of their lines (the pressure of competition). I have known show breeders of silky terriers that sold their non-show puppies to petstores in order to not find them competing against their own dogs later on so I bet the offspring of those dogs might be quite handsome.

Also, what is the percentage of maltese owners who show them? I admire those who show maltese tremendously... it looks like it is so much work to keep the silky hair from breaking, matting, etc... 

So my philosophy is this, papers or no papers if the puppy is purebred (no mixing with other breeds), healthy and within standards, we should be content with that. It saddens me to no end hearing how many puppies have all sorts of disease... and most of the time they even have registration papers! Incredible!

Well, just my 2 cents worth.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I think you are under the illusion that AKC papers really mean something which is why you ask how AKC Maltese with champion pedigrees can end up being 14 pounds. 

AKC registration means that the parent dogs were registered, that an irresponsible breeder lied or was mistaken about the breeding that produced the litter, or that an unprincipled breeder was commiting outright fraud to raise the value of the puppies. Registration itself is neither a guarantee nor even an indication of quality. No one examines the parent dogs or the puppies to see if they really qualify for registration, and AKC depends on breeders to be honest when applying for a litter registration. Some unethical breeders apply for registration forms for puppies that have died or were never born, and they then use these certificates on puppies of doubtful parentage.

To complicate matters further, a female dog can be impregnated by several male dogs during her fertile cycle; if the dogs are not watched closely and appropriately confined, some puppies in the litter may have different fathers than other puppies. Thus, in kennels where males and females of different breeds typically run together, mixed breed puppies can actually be registered as purebred. This is not uncommon with puppy mill dogs or with backyard breeders who have several breeds, and has led to many complaints that the puppy purchased as a particular breed has grown into a dog that looks like something else.

You can read the whole article here:

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/akc.html

I would love to see some statistics that substantiate your claim that pet store dogs genetically removed when paired can produce healthier off spring than show dogs. Everything I have ever read on the subject of pet store/puppy mill dogs contradicts your statement and warns that they carry a much greater risk of genetic defects which they can pass on to their off spring.

Of course, there are exceptions. But by and large, getting a puppy from a responsible breeder who starts with quality breeding stock, breeds to the standard and does genetic testing greatly improves your odds of getting a healthy, 6 pound Maltese as opposed to getting a puppy from a newspaper ad that is the off spring of two pet store dogs thrown together by happenstance.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

Just my two cents worth...many puppy mills inbreed their dogs. Puppy mills line breed without regard to the genetic consequences. A reputable breeder who might engage in line breeding does so with great understanding of the genetics of their animals. Puppy mills and pet stores breed for one purpose...to make money. I don't know about other breed parent clubs, but the AMA's code of ethics prevents a breeder from selling to pet stores, puppy brokers or puppy mills. I would never consider purchasing an animal from a broker or a pet store. But that is a personal decision...someone else might not be bothered by that the same way I am. Lady's Mom has posted some very valuable information regarding puppy mill dogs and the conditions under which they are bred and sold.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mpd_@Sep 19 2005, 08:06 PM
> *I know some of you will disagree with me, but sometimes healthy pet store pets genetically removed when paired will produce healthier pets than those "show line" dogs.  Hybrid vigor? In the quest for the perfect show dog, so much inbreeding goes on that the percentage of health problems just rises.
> 
> Also, I don't know about you, but how can AKC maltese with champion pedigrees end up being 14 pounds (my friend paid $3,000.00 for one of those ) and how can unregistered ones stay within the 4-7 lbs?  hmmmm....
> ...


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We are all entitled to our opinion, but mine is that the silky breeder you mentioned is not a reputable person. Also, you said they sold their non-show puppies to a pet store. I would assume they kept the best of the dogs, and while this is not something a reputable person would do, they sold those not judged to be show to a pet store. These would not be something they would have problems competing against because they would be the ones with flaws. Why would anyone with quality dogs sell them for a few hundred to pet stores when they could get thousands if sold to a show home? Good breeders want their dogs shown. True, there are some who keep their lines in a tight circle, but there are others out there who want others to show/exhibit their dogs because they are proud of what they can produce. Please don't make random statements about the show breeders based on your experience with one person of questionable reputation.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by mpd_@Sep 19 2005, 06:06 PM
> *I have known show breeders of silky terriers that sold their non-show puppies to petstores in order to not find them competing against their own dogs later on so I bet the offspring of those dogs might be quite handsome.
> 
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> ...


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I really find it questionable that any decent breeder would sell their puppies to petstores. Have you been to petstores? The condition of puppies there are truly sad and sometimes puppies can be there for months (without much sunshine, human interactions and enclosed with their poops and pees). Even with the risk of competition in the ring, I really think the only people selling to petstores are puppymill producers.


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## mpd (Jun 2, 2005)

Thank you to all who posted informative comments on the value of registration, breeders, sizes, etc... I believe that is what the forum is for, to exchange information and learn from others' experiences. 

While maybe petstores are not the best place, I would not write off all petstores... some do business with local breeders and sell healthy within standards dogs. Unfortunately, while there is money to be made, some people will breed indiscriminately and like someone mentioned... no genetic testing... etc... I am just thrilled that I have two healthy maltese, their origin is inmaterial to me. I would not trade them for the world... even if one turned out to be almost as big as a Westie!







Looking on the bright side, he can hold his pee longer? 

I was reading about the AKC DNA program. I wonder how it works? Does anyone have any experience with it? Thanks in advance for sharing.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I don't have any information...but I am sure that one of the active breeders here can answer that for you. 

As far as pet stores are concerned, I would definitely inquire as to the source of their animals including contact information for the breeders. While it might not be necessary now, if in the future a genetic problem develops, a reputable breeder would want to know so that they could discontinue using that particular line. Again, I know that not all good breeders participate in the AMA, but I did find their web site extremely helpful when looking for a dog.


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## Brooks (Jun 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Bridge_@Sep 19 2005, 02:27 PM
> *I was in the vet's office Saturday, and I saw someone carrying 3 Maltese babies out in a kennel.  I asked how much they were, and she said $350.  The parents she got from a pet store and bred them.  Imagine that. Talk about less than adequate breeding!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=101077*


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Ok, I don't want anyone to bite my head off, I just want to know what makes this inadequate breeding. Is it because the woman bought the dogs form the pet store?


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## sassy14830 (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Brooks+Sep 20 2005, 09:38 PM-->
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Ok, I don't want anyone to bite my head off, I just want to know what makes this inadequate breeding. Is it because the woman bought the dogs form the pet store?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=101634
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I believe what she is trying to say that the breeding is most likely from bad breeding stock. Studies show that dogs in pet shops most likly come from puppymills or bad bybs. I have met and known many breeders of all classifications. I know several BYBs who would never sell puppys to a pet store no matter how bad they need to sell them. I have to say the the chances of those pups that she saw at the vets office have a much greater chance of having health/behavior problems than those from a rep breeder. 

I will say this as I have said many times before. There are bad breeders that show their dogs and many would think they are great. Some of the Show breeders can be almost as bad as puppymills with quality dogs but kept in bad conditions and with out proper social interaction. There are also BYB"s that have a small amount of dogs genetic test and breed to the standard. Even though they dont start with Champ. dogs the puppys are raised in their homes and very well socialized. It is a persons choice to make proper evaulations of the breeders and choose what is important to them.

This is just MHO


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Here is a link to a ton of information on the AKC and DNA testing, mpd.

http://www.akc.org/dna/index.cfm

Sarah brings up such a good point that we so often overlook while we focus on the genetic/health problems of puppy mill/pet shop pups, which is the lifelong behaviorial problems these dogs can have. I posted this on another thread, but it's and excellent set of articles by an animal behaviorist on these problems.

http://www.badgerkennelclub.com/puppy_mills.htm

So often on these forums over the years I have seen posts from desperate Maltese owners who don't understand why the dog they thought would be a sweet little lap dog became aggressive when it reached adulthood. Or why the dog they thought they could carry around in a cute designer carrier is impossible to socialize. Or why they can't seem to housebreak their dog. This article explains why.


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## Bridge (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Brooks+Sep 20 2005, 10:38 PM-->
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Ok, I don't want anyone to bite my head off, I just want to know what makes this inadequate breeding. Is it because the woman bought the dogs form the pet store?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=101634
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Well yes because there might be health problems like someone said, not bred to standard, etc. because they're just looking to keep up with demand. But I'm sure there are plenty of people who get very nice dogs from pet stores, it's just that you run more of a risk because they just want to sell more puppies. I know someone who got a Westie from a pet store that's a very nice dog for them. I think Lady's Mom posted something about puppymills and pet stores and the production of puppies to meet the demand at all costs.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This is one of the best articles I've read on why not to buy a pet store puppy:

Little Shop of Horrors

Time after time, people who care about dogs will try to convince you not to buy your puppy (or supplies) from a pet shop which sells puppies. 

They'll tell of the horrible conditions 
in which the dogs are bred. 

They'll show you pictures of the cramped, filthy pens in which the breeding stock is housed. 

You'll be shocked and you'll be horrified. 

But you'll forget all that when you see that little bundle of love wagging it's tail at you through the glass and begging you to take it home. A quick pass of the credit card, and you're walking out the door a dog owner. 

No waiting 
No travel 
No pesky contracts 
No spay/neuter agreements 
No probing questions about you and your family to find out whether this is the right breed for you. 
No problems. 

Don't kid yourself, there will be problems. Forget the horrible conditions that this puppy came into when he entered this world. Forget that you're buying a complete mystery puppy. Sure, the breed standard for the breed says it's a calm, gentle family dog, but the owner of the puppy mill who produced your little bundle of love has probably never seen the breed standard, let alone bred to achieve it. 

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents. 

Many a family has bought a darling little Cocker Spaniel puppy at the pet store only to have it grow into a psychotic, screaming, urinating, biting terror. Cocker Spaniels are a wonderful breed, especially suited to families, when purchased from a reputable breeder. Cocker Spaniels are notoriously awful dogs when purchased from pet stores and poor breeders. This is true not only of Cocker Spaniels, but many, many other popular breeds. 

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents. 

Repeat this to yourself as you walk through the mall and past the pet store. Make it your mantra. That puppy in the window has parents living in cages hundreds of miles away. 

You have no idea whether the sire is an aggressive terror . 
You have no idea whether the dam is a timid, nervous fear biter. 
You have no idea what genetic time bomb is ticking inside that cute little bundle of fur. 

Like playing the lottery? That's exactly what you're doing when you buy a puppy from a pet shop. However, when you don't win in the lottery, you throw your ticket away. What will you do with a sick, ill-tempered member of your family if you don't get lucky and pick a winner?

Of course there are sweet natured, wonderful dogs who end up in the hands of puppy millers. These incredible dogs produce sweet natured, wonderful puppies despite the deplorable conditions in which they survive. 

Your problem, should you decide to buy from a pet store, is there is no way of knowing whether the puppy in the window is the product of a sweet, wonderful dog or a psychotic, screaming, urinating, biting terror. 

Feeling lucky? Go buy a lottery ticket. Don't buy a puppy from a pet store.

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents. 

Even if your locally owned pet store gets their puppies from local breeders, beware. Again, you can't meet the sire and dam of the litter and one must question the ethics of a breeder who will sell their puppies to someone they never have nor ever will meet. Ask the local pet store what their guarantee is. You'll find answers ranging from "48 hours" to "none". Remember, many diseases don't show up for years. The only acceptable answer is "a lifetime guarantee against genetic defects". Get it in writing.

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents. 

One day I overheard a teenager who works nights and weekends at a local pet store was telling a family with very small children how wonderful Chihuahuas (the Taco Bell Dog) are with children. Unfortunately, they aren't. This pimply faced teen then turned to another family and offered his "expert" advice on another breed. I do not question the young man's love of animals. I am sure he is a first class animal lover. However, based upon the advice I heard him dispense that evening, he is far from an expert on any breed of dog.

A breeder of Cocker Spaniels may not be a great source of information about Irish Wolfhounds. If you want information about Chihuahuas, ask a Chihuahua breeder. Heck, ask SEVERAL! 

Do your own research. The internet is a great place to start. Find the experts in the breed you want to consider. Ask them questions. Remember, breeders are human too. Some know more than others. Some think they know more than they do. If you talk to four or five different breeders, you should hear the same answers over and over again. If four breeders tell you their breed is not suited for children and then a fifth tells you differently, don't assume the other four are "lying".

You can't do research standing in the middle of a mall. Get out, get home and you'll find......

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents.  

Even puppy mill puppies who are whisked away from their mother at 4-6 weeks in order to get them into the store window at 8 weeks of age will be like their parents. Keep in mind, puppies learn many lessons in their "native tongue" from their mother and littermates from 4-8 weeks of age. These are lessons which will enable your puppy to fit in with a human family and can not be taught later in life. Puppies not so instructed almost never adjust properly to life. In order for your 8 week old puppy to make it to the mall, it is a certainty that his lessons were cut short and he will suffer for it. 

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents. 

All puppies carry all the genetic material passed on by their parents. If both parents suffered from PRA or hip dysplasia, your little puppy probably will too. (Be sure you have plenty of equity in your home if your puppy grows up to have either of these diseases. You'll need to tap it to pay vet bills.) However, it's possible your puppy will have problems neither parent has. Like a hemophilia, a disease that must be passed on by both human parents to exhibit symptoms, dogs are also affected by a myriad of health problems not exhibited but carried by either the sire or dam of a litter. Only careful screening of breeding stock and selective breeding will result in uniformly healthy puppies.

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents. 

Your pet store puppy may not be the purebred he/she was advertised to be. If the puppy's parents aren't purebreds, then he won't be either. Even if the puppy has it's AKC papers, that is still no guarantee both parents were purebred. 

The AKC is just a registry and nothing more, which does not exercise any judgment over the quality of the dogs it registers. To have any dog judged against the breed standard, one must enter the dog into an AKC conformation event. 

Since the AKC is only a registry (and a huge one at that), having a litter of AKC registered puppies requires only two things: ethics plus the ability to do paperwork and operate a mail box. Amazingly enough, the AKC operates on an honor system. This is where the ethics part comes into play. The AKC assumes that the breeder actually saw the two AKC registered purebred dogs consummate the act and that those dogs are actually the dogs whose names appear on the AKC papers. 

Unfortunately, breeders whose focus is entirely on profit usually have few reservations about misrepresenting a litter's parentage to the AKC. When a puppy mill's Rottweiler stud dies, they merely substitute another dog who looks like a Rottweiler. Only if they get "caught" will the puppy miller be unable to register their litters with the AKC. 

While the possibility of getting "caught" is slim, even if lightning does strike, there are plenty of other registries around. There are actually registries where it isn't even required that both parents to be of the same "breed". One well known registry will register a dog on the basis of a photograph alone. 

Puppies will grow up to be 
like their parents.  

When you purchase a puppy from a pet store, your odds are roughly the same as if you picked up a puppy from the local shelter of getting a quality dog that will fit in with your family. However, you'll pay a lot less for the shelter puppy and the shelter also offers adult dogs, about whom temperament, size and personality are all offered as a matter of fact and not educated guessing. 

If you're going to take a gamble on a puppy, take it on one that will be put down if it's not adopted. 

Take a chance on a puppy that will not encourage a puppy miller or poor breeder to breed yet another litter to foist upon and unsuspecting family that hasn't visited this page. 

If you're going to take a chance, take a chance on a puppy or dog from the local shelter. It's cheaper and a life depends upon it.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Wow... excellent article!!!!!


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## mpd (Jun 2, 2005)

Thanks for the excellent info. I hope the thread does not intimidate owners of petstore bought puppies. Somehow on this site it seems to be so slanted towards "reputable breeders" and some can put on quite a show. 

I almost bought from someone who advertised to be a reputable breeder of show lines in VA. They grilled me about my family, my work hours, would I have the time, the finances to care for the puppy... etc... gee! I was starting to feel like I needed to prove myself deserving of a puppy maltese to this great breeder. Then the wait... uh huh.... time solves all puzzles... I discovered that the breeder arranged sale of the puppies through a family member. How did I find out? Same number showed up for different breeds and different litters... Turns out someone had a puppy mill and then the litters would be taken to the relatives' home where they would then be presented as "home raised" only litter! So many scams out there! I guess with a petstore pet there are no scams. Regardless of petstore or breeder, I think any prospective owner needs to do some research and then arrange to have the puppy fully checked because in this day and age... one can never be sure what you are getting.

In summary... I think the last post should be any puppy not just petstore puppies! Buyer beware!


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