# Not to Neuter? Oh my!



## ckanen2n (Jan 2, 2012)

Did anyone else see this article published by "The Angry Vet?" :shocked::new_shocked:
Neutering and Behavior | Angry Vet

Some of this made me feel better about showing Manny. My main concern is that he will become a permanent marker if he is not neutered, but this vet basically says that is an old wives tale! Of course, I think most of us neuter to prevent unwanted puppies. What do you think?


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Interesting that the angry vet is only talking about males. I guess if we spay the females and leave the males intact that would prevent over-breeding. 

Maybe he is a chauvinist, or maybe he didn't want to address such important issues as how miserable an intact animal is when it never has the opportunity to do what those hormones are screaming to do.

All the same, I don't think there is a big rush to neuter your male dog, and I think that vets often do it way too early. If that was the actual point he was making, he didn't do a very good job. It was a poorly written article.

At any rate, I think you can take your time with Manny until you know for sure that your will or will not show him.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Neutering and spaying is the responsible thing to do as a dog owner...period!!! Let him stand in the middle of a shelter and say this. Take a look around at all the unwanted dogs and litters who face death because they weren't neutered or spayed. In this day and age, it's the ethically responsible thing to do. I also think that it lowers cancer risk in both females and males. IMHO only a guy vet would write this.


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## Daisy's Mommie (Sep 24, 2012)

We nearly lost my Dad's little Pom, Little Bear 3 years ago. He developed a prostate infection and the vet had to do an emergency neuter. Little Bear had to stay in the hospital for a week and a half. Vet told Daddy to always have his male dogs neutered to prevent this. Sadly, Little Bear passed on the the Bridge a year later from heart problems. Dad's new Pom-little Bit is already neutered!! My Zoey is neutered and is a healthy, happy, LAZY little man!


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## IvysMom (Dec 24, 2012)

I found that article disturbing and irresponsible for a vet to publish. 

Thousands of dogs are killed every single day due to overpopulation. I've said for years that all vets should be required to perform ____ number of FREE spays/neuters (for low income people who don't get their animals spayed/neutered because they don't have the money) every month in order to retain their veterinary license. Even if they only did 5 free spay/neuters a month, basically one a week, that would be 60 more dogs a year per vet that would not be out there creating unwanted puppies. Multiply that times the number of vets in this country and they would be making a dent in the number of dogs killed every year because they have no one to love them. I've had people argue with me about this before, that vets spend so much for vet school, equipment, staff, etc that they shouldn't HAVE to perform anything for free but I disagree. Becoming a vet is agreeing to take on the responsibility of doing what is best for animals and performing one free spay or neuter a week would not be a hardship for any vet, yet could have exponential outcome if done by all. It would be nice if all dog owners would have the money and motivation to spay/neuter to prevent unwanted puppies but in the real world some people just won't have it done unless it doesn't cost them anything.


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## Yogi's Mom (Jan 6, 2013)

*OH MY Mom-What Have You Done??I want My Pee nutts Back--Yogi*
*Iam A Little up-set.*


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

I don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. If I'm reading it right, he said that neutering is just as aggressive surgically as declawing a cat. If neutering is so aggressive, why was it that when I brought Pipper home a few hours after his neuter, I had a hard time keeping him still. He wanted to run around and play right away. He was neutered at 5 months. I assume this is why he still squats to pee which I much prefer over lifting the leg.


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

There is always someone who will go against the norm. We all know that its the righ right thing to do and its right for so many reasons. Thanks for sharing the article.


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

I disagree with this vet totally!! It says it curbs roaming 80 to 90 percent. Has that vet ever seen an un neutered **** dog break through a basement window to get to a female Beagle that hadn't been spayed yet.This was my dad's Beagle that they had come into heat earlier than expected. She became pregnant and almost died delivering two pups way too large for her. A neutered dog would not of done that. My males were all neutered, and the vet talks about cognitive dementia. None of mine exhibited this and they were seniors when they passed. That vet probably wouldn't even think about a vasectomy , seems like he's too macho for that!!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I read more throughout the site, and it seems he does favor vasectomy. I think this was mostly just a poorly written article that didn't go into detail or address different aspects or possibilities. It is incomplete at best, and only ammunition for the mindless who just don't want to fix their dogs...especially their male dogs.


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

Sylie said:


> I read more throughout the site, and it seems he does favor vasectomy. I think this was mostly just a poorly written article that didn't go into detail or address different aspects or possibilities. It is incomplete at best, and only ammunition for the mindless who just don't want to fix their dogs...especially their male dogs.


Ok I'm going back and read it. Again!


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Here is a better article :

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Personally I would not neuter a dog before he is fully grown (male dog). Female I would have a hard time choosing the right time. Neutering a male does NOT stop marking. A good example is my late Alex. He marked every bush on a walk. He marked inside my daughter's house. And he was neutered at 6 months. Charlie was neutered a few weeks short of being 1 year old. He does not mark more than Alex did.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

Yogi's Mom said:


> *OH MY Mom-What Have You Done??I want My Pee nutts Back--Yogi*
> *Iam A Little up-set.*


That made me laugh.

I have been told by the vet that neutering reduces testicular cancer risks. I know there are more risks because of the sleep gas, but neutering is extremely safe and minimally painful.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Sylie said:


> Interesting that the angry vet is only talking about males. I guess if we spay the females and leave the males intact that would prevent over-breeding.
> 
> Maybe he is a chauvinist, or maybe he didn't want to address such important issues as how miserable an intact animal is when it never has the opportunity to do what those hormones are screaming to do.
> 
> ...


 If you surf his blog you will see that Angry Vet does address female spay surgery. These concepts have been around for a while now. Mostly it circles around spay/neuter surgery of prepubescent puppies. It has as many health implications as it would for humans. I think more and more are opting for spay surgery after full puberty (at least one heat cycle). For males, I'm not as sure when that would be. But according to Angry Vet using surgery to render the dog sterile can be done and still leave testosterone production intact. This would be a health benefit. As for the humping and marking, I don't think it matters truthfully. I have a male that was neutered at a young age and he humps and marks. Still love him to death.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

MalteseJane said:


> Here is a better article :
> 
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
> 
> Personally I would not neuter a dog before he is fully grown (male dog). Female I would have a hard time choosing the right time. Neutering a male does NOT stop marking. A good example is my late Alex. He marked every bush on a walk. He marked inside my daughter's house. And he was neutered at 6 months. Charlie was neutered a few weeks short of being 1 year old. He does not mark more than Alex did.


Thank you Janine. I is a much more informative article on the subject. It also states that it is only weighing the health risks, not behavior or unwanted reproduction.

I have always had the feeling that spaying and neutering should not be done until the dog is fully mature, but vets keep saying that the health risks increase the longer you wait. If I had it to do over, after reading this, I would wait until just over a year.

For those who do not want to read the whole article, I have copied a portion that really surprised me, and think we all need to consider. It is impractical to leave your pets whole in this day and age, but it is always good to know the full impact of your decisions.

Here is an excerpt: * A retrospective cohort study of adverse vaccine reactions in dogs was conducted, which included allergic
reactions, hives, anaphylaxis, cardiac arrest, cardiovascular shock, and sudden death. Adverse reactions
were 30% more likely in spayed females than intact females, and 27% more likely in neutered males than
intact males34.*


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

wkomorow said:


> That made me laugh.
> 
> I have been told by the vet that neutering reduces testicular cancer risks. I know there are more risks because of the sleep gas, but neutering is extremely safe and minimally painful.


 They say the same thing for circumcision in humans. That it reduces the risk of penile cancer. I'm also quite certain that it is safe and relatively pain free. What the issue is, is hormone production and the health of organs, bones and brain congnition in older dogs. We do these things almost reflexively. It needs to be questioned. I agree whole heartedly with the birth control issues. But you wouldn't castrate your child to prevent unwanted pregnancy. This needs to be looked at, and improved.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I have heard of neutering and spaying little puppies(under 5- 6 months) and I think this is wrong, and there are vets who encourage this....that being said, any male dog that is not going to be used for breeding/showing should be neutered for a lot of reasons..it is a minimally invasive procedure..much easier than spaying a female. My first Malt was a male..and he did fine with his neuter..he was very good in the house and used potty pads, but he did mark outdoors. My personal opinion is that this vet needs to go to "anger management' classes...he is full of hot air!:HistericalSmiley::thumbsup:


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

aprilb said:


> I have heard of neutering and spaying little puppies(under 5- 6 months) and I think this is wrong, and there are vets who encourage this....that being said, any male dog that is not going to be used for breeding/showing should be neutered for a lot of reasons..it is a minimally invasive procedure..much easier than spaying a female. My first Malt was a male..and he did fine with his neuter..he was very good in the house and used potty pads, but he did mark outdoors. My personal opinion is that this vet needs to go to "anger management' classes...he is full of hot air!:HistericalSmiley::thumbsup:


*Let me tell you that this vet is not full of hot air. What he is doing is questioning the norm, and for some very good reasons. Lets educate ourselves! Here are some more facts. I think we all need to keep an open ind and not just accept the old "norms." We should be having good discussions with our vets espeically where our male dogs are concerned. There are lot of studies out there that are evidence based and refute the old line thinking. Here's an example:*

*Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs (Sanborn, 2007) by Laura J. Sanborn*​ 
_At some point, most of us with an interest in dogs will have to consider whether or not to spay/neuter our pet. Tradition holds that the benefits of doing so at an early age outweigh the risks. Often, tradition holds sway in the decision-making process even after countervailing evidence has accumulated. _
_Ms Sanborn has reviewed the veterinary medical literature in an exhaustive and scholarly treatise, attempting to unravel the complexities of the subject. More than 50 peer-reviewed papers were examined to assess the health impacts of spay / neuter in female and male dogs, respectively. One cannot ignore the findings of increased risk from osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and other less frequently occurring diseases associated with neutering male dogs. It would be irresponsible of the veterinary profession and the pet owning community to fail to weigh the relative costs and benefits of neutering on the animal’s health and well-being. The decision for females may be more complex, further emphasizing the need for individualized veterinary medical decisions, not standard operating procedures for all patients._
_No sweeping generalizations are implied in this review. Rather, the author asks us to consider all the health and disease information available as individual animals are evaluated. Then, the best decisions should be made accounting for gender, age, breed, and even the specific conditions under which the long-term care, housing and training of the animal will occur. _
_This important review will help veterinary medical care providers as well as pet owners make informed decisions. Who could ask for more?_
_Larry S. Katz, PhD_
_Associate Professor and Chair_
_Animal Sciences_
_Rutgers University_
_New Brunswick, NJ 08901_

*INTRODUCTION*
_Dog owners in America are frequently advised to spay/neuter their dogs for health reasons. A number of health benefits are cited, yet evidence is usually not cited to support the alleged health benefits._
_When discussing the health impacts of spay/neuter, health risks are often not mentioned. At times, some risks are mentioned, but the most severe risks usually are not._
_This article is an attempt to summarize the long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs that can be found in the veterinary medical literature. This article will not discuss the impact of spay/neuter on population control, or the impact of spay/neuter on behavior._
_Nearly all of the health risks and benefits summarized in this article are findings from retrospective epidemiological research studies of dogs, which examine potential associations by looking backwards in time. A few are from prospective research studies, which examine potential associations by looking forward in time._
*SUMMARY*
_An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject._
_On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases._


_On the positive side, neutering male dogs_

_eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer_

_reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders_

_reduces the risk of perianal fistulas_

_may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)_
_On the negative side, neutering male dogs_

_if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis._

_increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6_

_triples the risk of hypothyroidism_

_increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment_

_triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems_

_quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer_

_doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers_

_increases the risk of orthopedic disorders_

_increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations_
_For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds._


_On the positive side, spaying female dogs_

_if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs_

_nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs_

_reduces the risk of perianal fistulas_

_removes the very small risk (_0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors_
_On the negative side, spaying female dogs_

_if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis_

_increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds_

_triples the risk of hypothyroidism_

_increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems_

_causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs_

_increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4_

_increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty_

_doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors_

_increases the risk of orthopedic disorders_

_increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations_
_One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits associated of spay/neuter in dogs._
_The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary._
_The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.”_


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Pammy, I think the problem is that the original post gave a link to an article that did not get the point across very clearly. After reading the article that Janine posted, I have a much better understanding of the entire subject. Now, I agree with you that is certainly worth considering. Possibly members come on, read the first article and post a reply to *that*. However, neither article addresses the problem of reproduction. Neither article hints at how you could have both a male and female dog without neutering. This is a thought provoking subject.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Sylie said:


> Pammy, I think the problem is that the original post gave a link to an article that did not get the point across very clearly. After reading the article that Janine posted, I have a much better understanding of the entire subject. Now, I agree with you that is certainly worth considering. Possibly members come on, read the first article and post a reply to *that*. However, neither article addresses the problem of reproduction. Neither article hints at how you could have both a male and female dog without neutering. This is a thought provoking subject.


I wasn't really a article. It was a blog post. But there have been many many great articles out there on the subject. Most Holisitic Vets have been advocating this for ages.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Thank you Pam for your constructive comments.

As many of you know, I came to the breeding world a long time after I started out as a pet owner. (For those that do not know, I did not breed my first litter until 20 years after I got my first Maltese pet). 

As a pet owner I never questioned the idea that spaying and neutering were the best course of action. There has been a long and necessary campaign to encourage folks to spay and neuter their animals to prevent so many from ending up in shelters. I whole-heartedly agree with the rationale behind this campaign. I know before this, there were far too many people having accidental puppies. 

As part of that campaign to encourage more responsible behavior on the part of pet owners a lot of support was developed for the other benefits to spaying/neutering and there are some health benefits without a doubt. However, the real reason for the campaign was not about the health benefits at it's core. 

Since I decided to consider breeding and therefore keeping my beloved Maltese intact, I wanted to know more about the choices I was making and the risks involved and I started reading. What I read basically supports part of the thesis here. There are benefits, but there are also consequences. Fixing all of our pets through sterilization procedures does not necessarily improve their overall health outlook. In the end common sense would suggest that nature does not have it wrong. Just like in humans the hormone system is complex. When we take away certain hormones, we may take away some risks of a certain type of cancer, but we may also trigger a response toward another. 

I would suggest that in fairness to this author and others we keep an open mind about the pros/cons to spaying and neutering when it comes to health consequences. 

When it comes to keeping dogs out of shelters? Well, I think the cost benefit analysis there would be much more clearly in favor of spaying and neutering.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> Thank you Pam for your constructive comments.
> 
> As many of you know, I came to the breeding world a long time after I started out as a pet owner. (For those that do not know, I did not breed my first litter until 20 years after I got my first Maltese pet).
> 
> ...


 Excellent post Carina. Both of my dogs are spayed/neutered. I just hope that everyone takes the info with an open mind, and that it sparks dialogue with our vets. If I were to do this now, I would wait until the dog was fully matured. I am also not sure why for female dogs, they don't leave the ovaries intact, as that would continue the estrogen production. And, vasectomy for males??? Maybe...but I sure would have a long talk with my vet and ask lots of questions!!


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