# Fighting or Playing?



## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

My Mimi and Milo growl and yelp at each other at times. Are they fighting or playing? Is it common for two maltese puppies to fight? Are they trying to establish pecking order? Do they stop at some point? Do I need to stop them? If yes, during the day, do I separate them so that they can't fight when I am not present? What do I do?


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

As I stated in an earlier posting to you, it looks like your pups may have come from a broker and it may be that they are not well socialized. This is something they learn from the mom & litter mates. 
Of course it may be that they are just playing! How old were they when you got them?


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

edelweiss said:


> As I stated in an earlier posting to you, it looks like your pups may have come from a broker and it may be that they are not well socialized. This is something they learn from the mom & litter mates.
> Of course it may be that they are just playing! How old were they when you got them?


I got them when they were 9.5 weeks old. How can you tell if they are from broker or not? It appeared to me that they owned their dogs and they seem to love their dogs. The litter of the girl was registered under the guy I bought the dog from. I haven't gotten the paperwork for the boy as of yet. I hope that my babies are healthy. :smcry:

They are very affectionate with people but with each other, they play kinda rough at times. The girl likes to bite his tail and drag him from time to time. They don't bite each other hard because I never see any broken skin or anything. Is this playing or fighting? If they are indeed fighting and it's due to not being well socialized what do I need to do so that they don't fight? Help!! :smcry:


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Puppies of domestic dogs and their wild relatives play-fight, chase, thrash toys ... and so do many adult dogs! For puppies of domestic dogs, it can be a way of learning limits with each other. Puppies are supposed to learn from each other to stop before it becomes physically harmful. For instance, I believe a puppy is supposed to back off if the other one squeals. 

Do your puppies break off if one squeals? Do they both appear to be enjoying the activity? Or does one initiate the play-fight and the other just seems to be protecting itself?

Even if it seems mutual, dragging by the tail seems a little extreme to me--if the puppies are getting over-excited, you probably should gently stop the play-fight and have them take a time-out to calm down. 

Separating them while you are gone is probably a good idea, for housebreaking reasons as well. Maybe you could put them in two crates near each other.


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## Madison's Mom (Dec 26, 2007)

Sounds like play to me. At least that is how mine play, Axel is always pulling Madison's tail, and then Paxton will jump on them both. Just like with kids, though, it's easy to tell when their play 'crosses the line.' Just last night I had to break up the boys - especially since Paxton has gotten bigger than Axel. Axel gets really angry if he doesn't win. I just pick one of them up and hold him for a bit and then let them start playing again. We haven't had any blood drawn, so I guess we're doing ok.

Good luck.


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## bonsmom (Feb 22, 2010)

Try not to worry, you have your little sweeties now, and you can do many things to give them a healthy start. Get them to a good vet and follow his/her directions. 
We have a multi-dog house and they often tumble and chase with each other. If one has had "enough" the other knows to stop.
You will get plenty of good advice from the ladies on this forum. Some are experts in dog care and behavior!
Please keep the pictures coming, your pups are beautiful.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I am a firm believer in "what is done, is done" and we move on from here. I think you have gotten some good suggestions so far! It does sound like play that escalates due to the fact that they might not have learned from the mom & litter mates. 9.5 weeks is early---12 wks. is normal and the longer they are w/mom & litter mates the more socialized they become.
I visited the site you got them from & it sounds like a broker---did you get a spay/neuter contract? Did you get a pedigree. What lots of people don't realize is that anyone w/registration of the parentage can register the off-spring---it doesn't mean they are ethical breeders.
Again, please make sure your babies get the Bile Acids Test at 16 weeks---very small dogs sometimes, and I say sometimes, have liver issues and your vet can pick it up early w/this test. I had two healthy championship dogs once that produced aliver shunt puppy so it can happen even in idiopathic situations, but can also be genetic. I see you have only one year genetic guarantee so do check it out in a timely manner. I am not trying to frighten you---only to help. 
You are in a safe place here---we love maltese & will be here in "sickness & in health."
Sending you hugs!


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## socalyte (Nov 15, 2010)

I've only had my little Pippa for four weeks-- she's now 18 weeks and Cozette is one year old, and that's exactly how they play. When someone gets mad, they stop, but if I feel like they are getting too wound up I will give them both time out (just away from each other such as Cozette on the couch where Pippa can't reach her). Use your judgment, but it sounds like normal rambunctious puppy play to me. I understand your concern because I watch my two very carefully and it did worry me at first. Sounds like you're being a very good, attentive mommy to your two 

I have a video posted of when my two first met: Pippa.mp4 video by nicegurrrrl - Photobucket


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

mss said:


> Puppies of domestic dogs and their wild relatives play-fight, chase, thrash toys ... and so do many adult dogs! For puppies of domestic dogs, it can be a way of learning limits with each other. Puppies are supposed to learn from each other to stop before it becomes physically harmful. For instance, I believe a puppy is supposed to back off if the other one squeals.
> 
> Do your puppies break off if one squeals? Do they both appear to be enjoying the activity? Or does one initiate the play-fight and the other just seems to be protecting itself?
> 
> ...


Usually the boy squeals and the girl backs off. Both the puppies initiate the play-fight but the girl starts it a little bit more often than the boy. The girl's personality is very playful and curious about everything. She wants to know who is coming and going, she likes to smell, touch and bite everything. 

The boy on the other hand is very calm and gentle. He likes to be held and to cuddle. If you hold him, he likes to climb up your chest and lick you on your face. :wub:


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

I had the same worry when we added Annie to the family and she started to feel better - were they playing or fighting. I was told to let them work it out themselves as long as there was no blood. Anyway, it turned out they were playing, not fighting and they've never stopped playing and believe me they can play! lol

Anyway, the way I found out for sure they were playing was the first time they had a little disagreement - you will definitely know if it is a fight - totally different from playing. 

I have had an issue pop up recently with Annie - Annie sometimes gets upset if she feels slighted on getting my attention quick enough when I come home and she will go after either Sophie or Ruby. Sophie could care less and just ignores it unless she feels like putting Annie in her place. Ruby will sometimes yelp, but she's starting to stand up for herself, too.

Annie, doesn't use her teeth, but she does sound like she is trying to tear someone apart. Sounds really scary. But, we are making great progress with her and there are far fewer incidents of this sort as long as I am consistent with my behavior. 

Anyway, if it's a real fight, you will know the difference, believe me. That's my unprofessional opinion, of course. Good luck!

Linda


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

Madison's Mom said:


> Sounds like play to me. At least that is how mine play, Axel is always pulling Madison's tail, and then Paxton will jump on them both. Just like with kids, though, it's easy to tell when their play 'crosses the line.' Just last night I had to break up the boys - especially since Paxton has gotten bigger than Axel. Axel gets really angry if he doesn't win. I just pick one of them up and hold him for a bit and then let them start playing again. We haven't had any blood drawn, so I guess we're doing ok.
> 
> Good luck.


Glad to hear it's normal!  No blood here so far...*crossing fingers*. I read somewhere that they should be kept separate but this one breeder told me to keep them together so that they can keep each other company. When they sleep, one puts the head on top of the other one. They look so sweet.


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

bonsmom said:


> Try not to worry, you have your little sweeties now, and you can do many things to give them a healthy start. Get them to a good vet and follow his/her directions.
> We have a multi-dog house and they often tumble and chase with each other. If one has had "enough" the other knows to stop.
> You will get plenty of good advice from the ladies on this forum. Some are experts in dog care and behavior!
> Please keep the pictures coming, your pups are beautiful.


Thank you for your enouraging words. 

I will keep posting pictures whenever I have a chance. I have to take like million pictures to get one decent one. They move so quickly!


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

edelweiss said:


> I am a firm believer in "what is done, is done" and we move on from here. I think you have gotten some good suggestions so far! It does sound like play that escalates due to the fact that they might not have learned from the mom & litter mates. 9.5 weeks is early---12 wks. is normal and the longer they are w/mom & litter mates the more socialized they become.
> I visited the site you got them from & it sounds like a broker---did you get a spay/neuter contract? Did you get a pedigree. What lots of people don't realize is that anyone w/registration of the parentage can register the off-spring---it doesn't mean they are ethical breeders.
> Again, please make sure your babies get the Bile Acids Test at 16 weeks---very small dogs sometimes, and I say sometimes, have liver issues and your vet can pick it up early w/this test. I had two healthy championship dogs once that produced aliver shunt puppy so it can happen even in idiopathic situations, but can also be genetic. I see you have only one year genetic guarantee so do check it out in a timely manner. I am not trying to frighten you---only to help.
> You are in a safe place here---we love maltese & will be here in "sickness & in health."
> Sending you hugs!


Thank you for giving me some good advice. I rather be cautious than be sorry later. I will look into getting the Bile Acid test on both of them. Thanks!


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

socalyte said:


> I've only had my little Pippa for four weeks-- she's now 18 weeks and Cozette is one year old, and that's exactly how they play. When someone gets mad, they stop, but if I feel like they are getting too wound up I will give them both time out (just away from each other such as Cozette on the couch where Pippa can't reach her). Use your judgment, but it sounds like normal rambunctious puppy play to me. I understand your concern because I watch my two very carefully and it did worry me at first. Sounds like you're being a very good, attentive mommy to your two
> 
> I have a video posted of when my two first met: Pippa.mp4 video by nicegurrrrl - Photobucket


Awwwww...thank you for sharing the video. They are sooooooo adorable! :wub:


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

sophie said:


> I had the same worry when we added Annie to the family and she started to feel better - were they playing or fighting. I was told to let them work it out themselves as long as there was no blood. Anyway, it turned out they were playing, not fighting and they've never stopped playing and believe me they can play! lol
> 
> Anyway, the way I found out for sure they were playing was the first time they had a little disagreement - you will definitely know if it is a fight - totally different from playing.
> 
> ...


Yea, it seems like they are play-fighting. Mimi usually starts to bother Milo and when he doesn't like it, he holds his ground and starts to bark at her. When he does that, she runs away and plots herself down and just stare at him.


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

Sounds like you've got some great advice so far about your sweeties.
I have three dogs (2 girls who are 2 years, and one boy who is a year old)
I have much experience with seeing them play. 
They love to wrestle, chase each other, & roll around.
Fighting is a big difference from playing.
Allthough a fight could break out in the middle of a play session, you will have many clues. Here are some of them: 
Tense posture, like the dog has gone stiff & rigid, intently focused on the other dog, a mean growl, baring of teeth, a snap of the mouth at the air, or a snap at the other dog.
Actual fighting is frightening and can be scary to see and HEAR.
It's a gutteral sound of growls that sound different from play growls.

Dogs bite gently in play, they wrestle, and get very physical with each other.
But it is a reciprocated, back and forth kind of thing.
Like they are practicing wrestling moves kind of thing.

Fighting is almost unmistakable. It's very scary. 

Hope that helps a bit!


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

I can understand your concern about the play fighting. It is hard to tell sometimes. I had never had two dogs together before getting my Penny. She bugs the heck out of Lola, running around the ottoman fast so she can get to the other side and nip her behind, she really is a scamp. Mostly Lola puts up with it very well, but sometimes she bugs her until Lola chases her down, Penny usually is prepared and has the foresight to duck under the couch, she is much smaller so she is safe there. Had no yelps whatsoever so I think they are fine. Sounds to me like normal puppy play but there are people on here much more knowledgeable than me in this regard. 

Honestly, if you had come to this site first we would have strongly encouraged you to run, not walk from this breeder, but you have your babies now and they are adorable. I also agree that the bile acid test is essential, particularly for your quieter, smaller little boy. But for both it is a very useful thing to have for future reference, a baseline so to speak, so the vet can notice any changes.


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

Reading your above post now, and I see you mention a stare down.
There is a play type of stare down.
Where both dogs freeze, stare at each other for a bit, sometimes one is doing a play bow (front paws down, backside in the air) and then one of them will pounce, and usually chase each other.

A stare in a fight can be a dog locking eyes with another, the other dog might look and then advert their eyes, and look again. Both dogs would be standing usually, maybe one starts to back into a corner, or away, they are both tense, and one of both would be growling.


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

Thank you all for your advice. I feel so glad to have found this website! I am loving all this support! Thank you all once again!!!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

We are ALL learners, just different directions! You are in a good place & we are glad you are here!


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

edelweiss said:


> We are ALL learners, just different directions! You are in a good place & we are glad you are here!


Thanks!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Mimi and Milo are just darling. It sounds like they are just playing with each other the way the would play with their littermates. 

I've just got one 5.5 month old puppy and he's a huge amount of work. I can't imagine dealing with two!

As much as they love to be together all the time, it's important that Mimi and Milo get lots of one on one time and alone time to be properly socialized and trained. This is a great article about successfully raising two puppies together:

Two Puppies or One? - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

My two play very rough! ALL EVENING LONG! Thank goodness we have a D V R because my husband has to backup a program on the TV to get what he missed due to the dog's playing. One of my fluffs does not join in the rough play with Laurel and Hardy. You will be able to tell the difference between playing and fighting. You haven't lived until you've had a dog fight on your lap! LOL when they get too rowdy I separate them.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Definitely sounds like play fighting and as others have mentioned, if it's ever a true 'I want to kill you dead' type of a fight, you'll know the difference. Completely different growls/snarls. 

I personally would have them 'play' together but sleep separate so they don't become dependent on the other one. I don't usually intervene in puppy play unless one is dragging another by the tail, then I step in. 

they are really darling and I bet you are having sooo much fun with them!!


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

Ladysmom said:


> Mimi and Milo are just darling. It sounds like they are just playing with each other the way the would play with their littermates.
> 
> I've just got one 5.5 month old puppy and he's a huge amount of work. I can't imagine dealing with two!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link! So helpful! They are definitely a lot of work. I pretty can't do much anything except take care of them when I get home. When I have to go out, I take them with me and they get so much attention! When I am out with friends, I hardly hold them because they are being passed around among my friends.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

SweetMalteseAngels said:


> Thanks for the link! So helpful! They are definitely a lot of work. I pretty can't do much anything except take care of them when I get home. When I have to go out, I take them with me and they get so much attention! When I am out with friends, I hardly hold them because they are being passed around among my friends.


Be careful where you take them out until they are finished with their full cycle of vaccinations (about five months old). They get immunities from their mom from nursing which block the effectiveness of the first vaccines. The final vaccinations need to be given between 18-20 weeks for full immunity. Since you got them so young, they probably got their first shot too young so check with your vet. He may want to repeat it.

Bailey got lots of socializing before he finished his shots. I took him in his stroller everyday around the neighborhood so he could meet new people. I took him to places like Michael's (craft store), hardware store, etc. Make sure you stay away from places like pet stores, grooming salons, common areas where other pets potty as puppies can get deadly diseases from them. The parvo virus can live on surfaces for six months. Unless you have a fenced backyard, don't allow them to walk outside until they are about five months old and finished with their vaccinations.

If you have friends with small dogs who are up to date on vaccinations, it's fine for them to play with them. Bring just one with you on a play date or trip to the hardware store so he learns to be social on his own. It will also help the other one learn to be by herself. The one of one time will also be a great bonding experience.


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

Ladysmom said:


> Be careful where you take them out until they are finished with their full cycle of vaccinations (about five months old). They get immunities from their mom from nursing which block the effectiveness of the first vaccines. The final vaccinations need to be given between 18-20 weeks for full immunity. Since you got them so young, they probably got their first shot too young so check with your vet. He may want to repeat it.
> 
> Bailey got lots of socializing before he finished his shots. I took him in his stroller everyday around the neighborhood so he could meet new people. I took him to places like Michael's (craft store), hardware store, etc. Make sure you stay away from places like pet stores, grooming salons, common areas where other pets potty as puppies can get deadly diseases from them. The parvo virus can live on surfaces for six months. Unless you have a fenced backyard, don't allow them to walk outside until they are about five months old and finished with their vaccinations.
> 
> If you have friends with small dogs who are up to date on vaccinations, it's fine for them to play with them. Bring just one with you on a play date or trip to the hardware store so he learns to be social on his own. It will also help the other one learn to be by herself. The one of one time will also be a great bonding experience.


Yea, currently I keep them away from any pets. When I take them outside, they are in dog purses or I am carrying them in my arms but mostly, I take them to my friends homes who do not have any pets. I always took both of them when I went out but I guess I will start taking out one and leaving the other one at home and alternate them. Thanks for the advice!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

They will probably fuss when they are first left alone by themselves, but it is much better to get them used to being apart now. You don't want to have to deal with full blown separation anxiety when they are adults. Bailey was terrible about being left when he first came home at three months. I couldn't even take a quick shower without him getting so upset he'd be frantically barking and panting. I honestly thought I'd lose my mind there for awhile!

This book was a huge help to me. At 5.5 months, Bailey is much, much better!

Amazon.com: I'll be Home Soon: How to Prevent and Treat Separation Anxiety. (9781891767050): Patricia B. McConnell Ph.D.: Books


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

Ladysmom said:


> They will probably fuss when they are first left alone by themselves, but it is much better to get them used to being apart now. You don't want to have to deal with full blown separation anxiety when they are adults. Bailey was terrible about being left when he first came home at three months. I couldn't even take a quick shower without him getting so upset he'd be frantically barking and panting. I honestly thought I'd lose my mind there for awhile!
> 
> This book was a huge help to me. At 5.5 months, Bailey is much, much better!
> 
> Amazon.com: I'll be Home Soon: How to Prevent and Treat Separation Anxiety. (9781891767050): Patricia B. McConnell Ph.D.: Books


Thanks for the suggestion of the book. I am going to try taking one of the babies out with me tonight and see how the one left alone reacts. I will tell you guys what I observe. 

Everyone, thanks again for all your help!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

SweetMalteseAngels said:


> Thanks for the suggestion of the book. I am going to try taking one of the babies out with me tonight and see how the one left alone reacts. I will tell you guys what I observe.
> 
> Everyone, thanks again for all your help!


The two main takeaways from the book are not to make a fuss when you leave and to ignore them when you first get home or you will feed their anxiety. Also, a toy like a stuffed Kong to occupy them while you are gone really helps. I smash a Gerber chicken stick into a mini Kong when I leave. Bailey now gets excited about his Kong when he sees me getting ready to leave.


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## SweetMalteseAngels (Oct 16, 2011)

Ladysmom said:


> The two main takeaways from the book are not to make a fuss when you leave and to ignore them when you first get home or you will feed their anxiety. Also, a toy like a stuffed Kong to occupy them while you are gone really helps. I smash a Gerber chicken stick into a mini Kong when I leave. Bailey now gets excited about his Kong when he sees me getting ready to leave.


Awww how cute! Currently, since I leave them together, they don't have separation anxiety. They don't even whine when I leave or anything. When I do come back from work, they get excited to see me and whines a little until I let them out of their play area. But I will have to see tonight how one reacts when I take one out of the house and leave one home.


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## BeeGee (Sep 5, 2008)

I have Abe (Maltese, 3 yrs) and Abby (Maltipoo, 8 months) and they love to play together. Abe was a little shy at first, being the only pet in the house for 3 yrs. and when Abby was so tiny, I worried a lot that she might get hurt. Eventually, I let them play together but kept a close eye on when it would get too rough. Now, even tho Abby is only 5 lbs and Abe is 8 lbs, they seem to have equalled it out and Abe will let her know when he has had enough or seek some peace and quiet under a chair Right now they are both asleep near my chair as I type this.


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