# Anyone familiar with this breeder?



## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Any information about this breeder?



http://hometown.aol.com/malteseforu/myhomepage/index.qp


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

> Any information about this breeder?
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> http://hometown.aol.com/malteseforu/myhomepage/index.qp[/B]



No I've never heard of this breeder, but I do like the face on the one pictured. My Buddy kinda has a face like that.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

That doesn't even look like an AKC Malt to me. Certainly not what you would expect from a "breeder". Somebody is probably going to jump down my throat for saying it, but I have to be honest Nonny. I hope I didn't hurt your feeling.


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

> That doesn't even look like an AKC Malt to me. Certainly not what you would expect from a "breeder". Somebody is probably going to jump down my throat for saying it, but I have to be honest Nonny. I hope I didn't hurt your feeling.
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No feelings hurt here. I want to know everything possible.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> That doesn't even look like an AKC Malt to me. Certainly not what you would expect from a "breeder". Somebody is probably going to jump down my throat for saying it, but I have to be honest Nonny. I hope I didn't hurt your feeling.
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I have to agree. If that Malt is the best she's got, I wouldn't consider getting a puppy from her.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree with Frosty's mom. It appears to be a backyard breeder or worse. I didn't see any word on a guarantee either.


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

Stressing size (on the minature side especially, 2.5 pounds for one of the studs) is a huge red flag for me as well as the one pup shown just doesn't look like a purebred maltese at all.

Wow. The AKC looks to be registering anything and anyone.


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

Nonny,

I happen to stumble across your posting @ Nov 2006, regarding "Me", wondering if anyone knew anything about "Whispering Hills Maltese".

I appreciate your inquiry. However, it would have been best if you had contacted me personally through my webpage that you apparently saw. I would have glady given you many references!

I can assure you that all those lady's who posted in response were not only cruel in their remarks, but uneducated. They had no business making the comments they did when they have no basis for the statements they made.

Frosty's Mom stated that mine do not look like an AKC Malt and not what you would expect from a breeder.

Lady's Mom stated if that was the best I had, she would not get a Maltese from me.

Cutecosyntoy stated she agrees with Frosty's Mom, and said I was a backyard breeder or worse?! and did not "see" a guarantee???

NYCNeighborhood Dogs stated a red flag and that the pups do not even look like a purebred maltese.

Let me assure ALL of you. . .I am not a backyard breeder, puppy mill, kennel, dog broker, or otherwise. I breed FULL BLOODED & PUREBRED AKC Maltese, with CHAMPION BLOODLINES!!!

Granted the pics are not the best, but I am not a professional photographer, however, I do get many compliments from my pics.

My Dams have champion bloodlines, as many as 71, how many of you other ladies who posted can make that claim? The bloodlines are from some notable Show people. And currently I have 2 litters available of which one of those litters is Sired by a CHAMPION SON.

And yes, I DO have a 1 yr genetic health guarantee, Vet-health cert., etc.

Whsipering Hills Maltese
Patricia


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Patricia, your aol webpage is very scant and shows one dog, which one would assume is representative of the type of dogs you breed since that's all that's on there. That particular dog does not closely resemble the maltese standard from what we can see in the photo. There is NOTHING wrong with someone asking what others think and we're very glad to have this website to do just that. 

If you have a guarantee why not say so on your site? If you have pedigrees full of champions then why not show them on your site as others do? No one is being rude but rather being as honest as possible with what was given. We don't want others to get burned like many of us on here have.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I can't comment on what type of breeder you are, good or bad, because I don't know enough about you or your program. One comment that did strike me in your website was that all your malts have "baby doll" faces. I can only go by the photo you show, but to my eye that dog does not have a baby doll face. A while back a well known show breeder posted about the baby doll look and said that CharmyPoo's Nibbler (I believe it was Nibbler) had classic baby doll features and could be used as an example. I also want to say that the subsequent posters were basing their comments on your website. Rather than just attack the subsequent posters, why not instead provide information to explain those "red flags"? To me, one of the biggest red flags is using a 2.5 lb dog as a stud. I would think that if you are attempting to breed to the standard of 4 to 7 lbs, a 2.5 lb stud wouldn't be a good choice. Why do you use such a small male for your breeding program? I really am not trying to be confrontational, and I apologize in advance if I come across that way. I am trying to offer some constructive criticism of your website, based on the original poster's questions.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Hi Patricia and welcome to Spoiled Maltese. I didn't see anything in your response about showing. Are you actively showing maltese? Just curious. I haven't looked at your website and have no comments about your breeding program. For myself, I like a breeder who is currently involved in showing.....

Thanks!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Claiming to have champions in pedigrees is a pretty common sales tactic. Most reputable breeders post their sires' and dams' pedigrees online. Since you did not, perhaps you could share them here? That would help correct any mistaken impressions we may have gotten about the quality of your dogs based upon your website alone.


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

> Patricia, your aol webpage is very scant and shows one dog, which one would assume is representative of the type of dogs you breed since that's all that's on there. That particular dog does not closely resemble the maltese standard from what we can see in the photo. There is NOTHING wrong with someone asking what others think and we're very glad to have this website to do just that.
> 
> If you have a guarantee why not say so on your site? If you have pedigrees full of champions then why not show them on your site as others do? No one is being rude but rather being as honest as possible with what was given. We don't want others to get burned like many of us on here have.[/B]



I am not sure where you are looking, but I have many pics posted on my webpage, including my Dams. My guarantee is mentioned along with alot of specific information. As for the pedigrees, those are not posted as I have heard of many scam artists out there who steal your information and produce fake pedigrees. I mentioned on my webpage that pedigree's were available to serious inquiries/buyers only.

It would be nice to know where you are looking, as maybe we are not talking about the same page? Thank you for responding!



> I can't comment on what type of breeder you are, good or bad, because I don't know enough about you or your program. One comment that did strike me in your website was that all your malts have "baby doll" faces. I can only go by the photo you show, but to my eye that dog does not have a baby doll face. A while back a well known show breeder posted about the baby doll look and said that CharmyPoo's Nibbler (I believe it was Nibbler) had classic baby doll features and could be used as an example. I also want to say that the subsequent posters were basing their comments on your website. Rather than just attack the subsequent posters, why not instead provide information to explain those "red flags"? To me, one of the biggest red flags is using a 2.5 lb dog as a stud. I would think that if you are attempting to breed to the standard of 4 to 7 lbs, a 2.5 lb stud wouldn't be a good choice. Why do you use such a small male for your breeding program? I really am not trying to be confrontational, and I apologize in advance if I come across that way. I am trying to offer some constructive criticism of your website, based on the original poster's questions.[/B]


The information regarding the size of the stud is incorrect, he is not 2.5 lbs, he is 3.5 lbs. Because of the


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

> Nonny,
> 
> I happen to stumble across your posting @ Nov 2006, regarding "Me", wondering if anyone knew anything about "Whispering Hills Maltese".
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> ...


Patricia,

It is apparent that your feelings have been hurt by this thread. However, I think you should understand the purpose of this website is all about sharing our collective love for this breed. We all love these dogs and work hard to protect them. In our quest to protect these dogs, we try to help educate folks about where they should look for puppies. We abhor petshops/puppymills and we do not have much patience for backyard breeders. 

We support only responsible breeders here. We follow the guidelines of the American Maltese Association when we look at what a responsible breeder should be. 

I see here in your post and in your website that you claim your puppies come from Champion bloodlines. Many of our backyard bred pups, or petshop pups have champions in their bloodlines. You give numbers that do not really relate to how these champions appear in the pedigree. 71? This goes back how many generations? My first Maltese had some great bloodlines on his fathers side and depending on how far you count back we could claim similar numbers, but that did not make him a champion quality Maltese. For a responsible breeder, what matters is if the particular sire and dam are Championship quality. 

Your own claims about the sires of the pups you show as available would make them unsuitable for showing. The standard calls for a Maltese to be at least 4 pounds. Your male dogs are significantly less and therefore are not of breeding quality. Your little girl Meena has a very cute face, but it is not the look of a Championship quality dog. She looks like a very sweet pet, but she does not look like a show quality dog. It is not a bad picture. It is 

If you are serious about breeding then you should also be showing your dogs and breeding only those dogs that are judged to be of breed standard quality. 

Perhaps, I am misreading your intentions, but it seems that you are criticizing the original poster for asking the question here. You state that she should have inquired to you directly. In fact, with such an important decision, this poster has done the responsible thing. Inquiring only with a breeder and hearing only from the "references" the breeder provides would allow for only a very limited and (one sided) evaluation. 

It appears that you are taking the critique of your website and the information provided there personally. Having been critiqued professionally, I understand how personal it can seem, but I would suggest that you consider the evalution. Are you really breeding responsibly? Do you want to? 

If you truly desire to be an ethical and responsible breeder we would welcome you to participate in our discussions and to learn from some of the folks here who have extensive knowledge about this breed.


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

> Hi Patricia and welcome to Spoiled Maltese. I didn't see anything in your response about showing. Are you actively showing maltese? Just curious. I haven't looked at your website and have no comments about your breeding program. For myself, I like a breeder who is currently involved in showing.....
> 
> Thanks![/B]


In response to your question, no I do not do any showing. I intended to go that route 2 yrs ago, but my grandbaby almost died from bacterial meningitis at that time and have been helping to care for her since. I have been striving to produce quality (not quantity), my Dam's & puppies have freedom of my house and they are family, very much loved.

Menna's puppies have 24 champion bloodlines and the sire is a Champion Grandson.

Meika's puppies have 70 champion bloodlines and the sire is a Champion Son.

at present, I have an interested individual who had shown Maltese back in the 1980's, and she will be purchasing one of my male puppies to send to a show handler. Hopefully this male puppy will place, and a new star will be born in this family




> Claiming to have champions in pedigrees is a pretty common sales tactic. Most reputable breeders post their sires' and dams' pedigrees online. Since you did not, perhaps you could share them here? That would help correct any mistaken impressions we may have gotten about the quality of your dogs based upon your website alone.[/B]


I will not post pedigrees. But I would gladly send them to you in private email

[email protected]


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

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Can you post a link to your website? That way we can all see what you are defending. 

BTW, the site that was posted by the original poster and that everyone who commented was referring to is your AOL Homepage... which by the way is not completed. Anyone can modify it. You might want to click the done button to complete it. Just a thought.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

The American Maltese Association has a list of suggested questions to ask breeders. Perhaps if you answered them, it would help us get a better understanding of your breeding program.


Tell me about your Maltese. How long have you been breeding? How frequently do you breed? 


What qualities do you breed for? What do you feel are the attributes and drawbacks of this breed? What is the breed's lifespan? Are they easy to housebreak and train?


Do you breed to produce puppies that meet the official Standard of the breed? What bloodlines are the puppies from? 


What dog clubs do you belong to? 


Are your dogs AKC registered? 


Do you furnish a 3-5 generation pedigree? 


What type of contract, conditions or guarantees are involved in the sale of the puppy?  


From the _American Maltese Association_.


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

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Thank you for your thoughts. I am ethical, honest and responsible. Had the original poster contacted me, I would have gladly given her many references from previous buyers. I do not claim show quality, only show "potential". As for the 70 champion bloodlines, they are in every generation on Dam & Sire sides, up to 5 generations, but I also know that the first 3 generations is what counts. Also I am very familiar with AMA, AKC, MalteseOnly, and other reputable org.'s and sites.




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Kim,

Thank you for the info/advise. I will have to go and recheck that as I thought I was thorough. Here is the link: http://hometown.aol.com/malteseforu/index.html


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

[/QUOTE]Kim,

Thank you for the info/advise. I will have to go and recheck that as I thought I was thorough. Here is the link: http://hometown.aol.com/malteseforu/index.html
[/QUOTE]

<span style="color:#6666CC">Your welcome. I looked at your site and what jumped out at me is you are advertising "teacup" Maltese. There is no such thing as a "teacup" Maltese. The breed standard calls for a dog up to 7 lbs preferably between 4-7 lbs. Anything under 4 lbs is not a teacup but rather a runt or from breeding small parents to produce small pups. Most show breeders try hard to not have pups under 4 lbs. It happens occasionally but not something that should be strived for. Just my opinion.</span>


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I dont know you either so I cant comment just yet. But I feel anyone who wants to can post and ask what others think about a Maltese breeder, they dont have to contact you directly if they dont want to, that is what this forum is about opinions, good, bad, right, wrong! whatever, it everyones right to state their feelings..
Thanks,
ANDREA
let me say it is however and should be fair to you, that after getting some opinions they do contact you and ask you what is true and what isnt


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This is from the _American Maltese Association_:

MALTESE MYTHS

The Maltese is NOT a terrier! The plural of Maltese is still Maltese - not Malteses. There is no such thing as a "teacup" or "pocket" Maltese. The Maltese is a TOY breed. Our Standard calls for the Maltese to be "under 7 lbs. with 4-6 lbs. preferred". Some Maltese do mature at under 4 lbs. while others mature at over 7 lbs.

If you look back at my last post, you will see that one of the questions the AMA suggest asking potential Maltese breeders is "Do you breed to produce puppies that meet the official Standard of the breed?" 

Surely you can see that by referring to your dogs as "teacups" you show your lack of knowledge of the breed standard which is a prerequisite for any reputable breeder.

You've dodged the question several times, but again I ask, what bloodlines are you breeding? What champions are in your line?

I am trying to be open minded, but so far you haven't given us any additional information that would make me change my earlier opinion that I wouldn't consider buying a puppy from you.


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

May I ask kindly....who in the Maltese world are your mentors that have guided you through the process of breeding/showing responsibly for the betterment of the breed?

Thanks,
carole


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

> May I ask kindly....who in the Maltese world are your mentors that have guided you through the process of breeding/showing responsibly for the betterment of the breed?
> 
> Thanks,
> carole[/B]



Research, AKC.org, AMA, Malteseonly, and much advise from reputable/show breeders



> The American Maltese Association has a list of suggested questions to ask breeders. Perhaps if you answered them, it would help us get a better understanding of your breeding program.
> 
> 
> Tell me about your Maltese. How long have you been breeding? How frequently do you breed?
> ...



Marj,

I would be happy to answer you in a private email, too lengthy here



> This is from the _American Maltese Association_:
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> MALTESE MYTHS
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> ...


Your comment in this post was not necessary. This information is not new to me and I am thouroughly aware of what AKC standards are. Some people refer to 4 lb sizes as teacups, and 4 lbs. is recognized by AKC standards. And as for any given sizes when you breed, unless you thouroughly know the pedigree lines, you can put a Dam & Sire together of a certain size and on occassion you may get something much larger or even smaller than the norm (genetics), it depends on what is in the lineage.

I do not like the term "dodged" your question . . it was 2am in the morning and I went to bed. I do have a job & a life beyond this post. Thank You


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

> I dont know you either so I cant comment just yet. But I feel anyone who wants to can post and ask what others think about a Maltese breeder, they dont have to contact you directly if they dont want to, that is what this forum is about opinions, good, bad, right, wrong! whatever, it everyones right to state their feelings..
> Thanks,
> ANDREA
> let me say it is however and should be fair to you, that after getting some opinions they do contact you and ask you what is true and what isnt[/B]


Thank You


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Thank you but I am not interested in purchasing a puppy from you so I am not interested in a private email about your bloodlines and pedigrees. I only offered you the opportunity to discuss your bloodlines, breeding program and what champions you were breeding from to give you the opportunity to correct any misconceptions you feel people may have gotten from previous posts on this thread. 

As I say, I am trying to be openminded, but until you give us more information, my original impression based upon your website alone still stands. Perhaps if you answered the questions from the AMA that I posted before, it would give us an opportunity to understand your breeding program better.


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

QUOTE(Carole @ Jun 16 2007, 02:17 PM) 

May I ask kindly....who in the Maltese world are your mentors that have guided you through the process of breeding/showing responsibly for the betterment of the breed?

Thanks,
carole


QUOTE:Malteseforu

Research, AKC.org, AMA, Malteseonly, and much advise from reputable/show breeders

_________________

I am sorry, but that canned answer won't fly and is no answer at all.


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

> Thank you but I am not interested in purchasing a puppy from you so I am not interested in a private email about your bloodlines and pedigrees. I only offered you the opportunity to discuss your bloodlines, breeding program and what champions you were breeding from to give you the opportunity to correct any misconceptions you feel people may have gotten from previous posts on this thread.
> 
> As I say, I am trying to be openminded, but until you give us more information, my original impression based upon your website alone still stands. Perhaps if you answered the questions from the AMA that I posted before, it would give us an opportunity to understand your breeding program better.[/B]


I offered to answer questions, send pedigree's, and discuss bloodlines, etc. in private email. I will not "post" all the info requested, as there are many hackers & scammers out there. And I really do not have to prove myself to you or to anyone else for that matter. I felt that this forum would be nice to be a part of, being a Maltese lover/breeder. But most of you have not been kind, and rather rude. You're not my judge and jury. But, I offered the information in private email in spite of all this unkindness. . .so. . have a blessed day



> QUOTE(Carole @ Jun 16 2007, 02:17 PM)
> 
> May I ask kindly....who in the Maltese world are your mentors that have guided you through the process of breeding/showing responsibly for the betterment of the breed?
> 
> ...


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

> Any information about this breeder?
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> http://hometown.aol.com/malteseforu/myhomepage/index.qp[/B]






























































I don't think that anyone was rude at all. I commend everyone who gave this breeder an opportunity to explain her breeding program and they did so in an intelligent respectful manner. My hat is off to all of you!


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

I typically do not reply on threads of this nature, but I felt that I wanted to share on this one. 
I do not believe that anyone has been "rude" but has simply answered the question posed originally. There are many people here today who have been taken for a ride by those claiming to be "reputable breeders." Therefore, we try to give honest opinions based on the available information.
That isn't to say that those opinions are true, it is what it is...our opinions.
I do not believe that anyone is trying to attack this breeder on a personal level, I simply think that those replies are trying to protect our friendly members.
We have become very wary when trying to make the best, most informed decision possible.


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## Furbabymom (Dec 17, 2004)

> I typically do not reply on threads of this nature, but I felt that I wanted to share on this one.
> I do not believe that anyone has been "rude" but has simply answered the question posed originally. There are many people here today who have been taken for a ride by those claiming to be "reputable breeders." Therefore, we try to give honest opinions based on the available information.
> That isn't to say that those opinions are true, it is what it is...our opinions.
> I do not believe that anyone is trying to attack this breeder on a personal level, I simply think that those replies are trying to protect our friendly members.
> ...


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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Well said, ladies!!


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

While I appreciate the effort this breeder is making to educate us, I am still concerned that my original questions are unanswered...they are, why are you using such a small stud in your breeding program? Even a 3.5 lb stud is very small and most breeders would not breed so small a male. Also, I made an observation regarding "baby doll" faces and that the dog on the website, in my opinion does not have the baby doll look. Why do you think that your dogs have this quality? I'd love to see more photos.



I think that everyone here would love to find out more about your program, and you might actually find that we have a lot to offer, especially from the breeders...because frankly, that's just the kind of group we are. So I think that no one here was trying to be overly critical in a personal attack. Instead, I think that the ladies here are trying to find out more about your program as well as provide good information to potential dog owners who might not be aware of the AMA standards, breeder questions and the like. I was remiss in my original post not welcoming you here...everyone is welcome and we really are a great bunch once you get to know us!


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

IMO

As many know here my girls are from two of the very top show breeders in the Maltese world. 
Most of the best Maltese breeders are very happy and PROUD







to publicly display who their mentors are by name, the other other breeders and lines they work with, and to post pedigrees without qualm. I simply don't understand the hesitation since most quality breeders do not hesitate in this regard. Malteseforu, we are not your enemy, and could very well be very helpful to your Maltese program if it is legit in efforts to improve the breed, and you would be forthright about your program.


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

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FOR YOUR INFORMATION . . .you are looking at the WRONG website. I gave a link to my website, here it is again : http://hometown.aol.com/malteseforu/index.html



> While I appreciate the effort this breeder is making to educate us, I am still concerned that my original questions are unanswered...they are, why are you using such a small stud in your breeding program? Even a 3.5 lb stud is very small and most breeders would not breed so small a male. Also, I made an observation regarding "baby doll" faces and that the dog on the website, in my opinion does not have the baby doll look. Why do you think that your dogs have this quality? I'd love to see more photos.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that everyone here would love to find out more about your program, and you might actually find that we have a lot to offer, especially from the breeders...because frankly, that's just the kind of group we are. So I think that no one here was trying to be overly critical in a personal attack. Instead, I think that the ladies here are trying to find out more about your program as well as provide good information to potential dog owners who might not be aware of the AMA standards, breeder questions and the like. I was remiss in my original post not welcoming you here...everyone is welcome and we really are a great bunch once you get to know us![/B]


THANK YOU . . .everyone was viewing the WRONG website, here is the CORRECT one (again): http://hometown.aol.com/malteseforu/index.html


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I just took a look at the correct website...you still have some red flags in my mind...including the 3.5lb stud. As well as the use of the phrase "tea cup". Also, your puppies are adorable (show me a pup that isn't, especially a malt pup) but I don't see the "baby doll" face. Just my opinion, and not intended as a personal attack.


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## jazzmalt (Feb 6, 2007)

> My Dams have champion bloodlines, as many as 71, how many of you other ladies who posted can make that claim?[/B]


That's very interesting. If you look at a 5 generation pedigree, and every single dog in that pedigree is a champion, you'll have 62 champions. However, I challenge anyone to produce such a pedigree even for the top show dogs in the history of the Maltese breed.









Possibly unpopular opinion ahead. Please feel free to scroll.

The AKC standard for any breed refelcts the ideal, perfect specimen of the breed. There is only one legitimate reason to ever breed a litter of puppies, regardless of breed. That reason is the potential to produce progeny that will improve upon the lineage of the parents in the breeder's ever illusive quest for perfection. There is only one way for a breeder to objectively know that they are making progress in their breeding program, and that is in the show ring. A responsible breeder is one who is putting their progeny in front of an AKC licensed judge in AKC competition. 

If a breeder isn't willing to submit their dogs for evaluation by an AKC judge in the show ring, they shouldn't be breeding. If a breeder is unable to afford the significant financial investment involved in showing dogs, they're likewise unable to afford quality veterinary care, including genetic and health screening for their sires, dams, and puppies. I ask myself, if a breeder is unable or unwilling to show their dogs, what is the point of breeding? For me, I've never heard an answer to that question that I would find acceptable.

I've seen and heard people say they can't afford a puppy from a show breeder. That raises a lot of questions in my mind. As just one example, Pashes often sells their pet quality puppies for as little as $1,000, as do other show breeders. If a prospective owner can't afford $1,000 to acquire their forever dog from a reputable show breeder, I have serious questions as to whether they can afford to provide quality healthcare for the lifetime of their pet. As with people, geriatric healthcare can be quite expensive!

The presence of champions in a puppy's pedigree is virtually meaningless. Unfortunately, many purebred backyard and petstore puppies will have champions in their pedigree. If the champions are in the first to third generation, I can only pray that the show breeders whose kennel names appear in such pedigrees learn something that helps them to prevent having their hard work and good reputations exploited in the future. 

As far as any of these puppies being "show potential", that's just a sad misrepresentation of reality. "Show potential" means that the puppy is the result of careful, knowledgable linebreeding of the best representations of the breed, as proven in the show ring. A reputable show breeder who has a "show *potential*" puppy will hold onto that puppy until it's older and a determination can be made if it's "show *quality*". If the puppy is show quality, the breeder keeps it for their own breeding program; they don't sell it to a pet home. 

I'm a little offended by the breeder who's the subject of this thread making the comment that she doubted that any of our dogs have as many champions in their pedigree as her puppies. Or that people on this list who ask questions about her breeding program are uneducated. My Maltese boy, whom I've been blessed to have for 10 years, came from a top show breeder. Both his CH sire and CH dam are on the Register of Merit (determined by number of champion offspring), as is his CH litter sister. Among other honors, his sire went Best of Breed at Westminster. The breeder held onto him as "show potential" until he was 6 months old. I got him for less than $1,000 and he came to me with a neuter contract, in spite of his illustrious lineage...because he.is.not.show.quality. There isn't a doubt in my mind that had a hobby breeder somehow managed to get their hands on him before he was neutered, they'd be selling his Champion lineage "show potential" puppies today.


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

Jazzmalt~

EXCELLENT post!!!!























~Carole~


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Very well said!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Wow, Jazzmalt... Excellent post!!


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

> QUOTE





> My Dams have champion bloodlines, as many as 71, how many of you other ladies who posted can make that claim?[/B]


That's very interesting. If you look at a 5 generation pedigree, and every single dog in that pedigree is a champion, you'll have 62 champions. However, I challenge anyone to produce such a pedigree even for the top show dogs in the history of the Maltese breed.









Possibly unpopular opinion ahead. Please feel free to scroll.

The AKC standard for any breed refelcts the ideal, perfect specimen of the breed. There is only one legitimate reason to ever breed a litter of puppies, regardless of breed. That reason is the potential to produce progeny that will improve upon the lineage of the parents in the breeder's ever illusive quest for perfection. There is only one way for a breeder to objectively know that they are making progress in their breeding program, and that is in the show ring. A responsible breeder is one who is putting their progeny in front of an AKC licensed judge in AKC competition. 

If a breeder isn't willing to submit their dogs for evaluation by an AKC judge in the show ring, they shouldn't be breeding. If a breeder is unable to afford the significant financial investment involved in showing dogs, they're likewise unable to afford quality veterinary care, including genetic and health screening for their sires, dams, and puppies. I ask myself, if a breeder is unable or unwilling to show their dogs, what is the point of breeding? For me, I've never heard an answer to that question that I would find acceptable.

I've seen and heard people say they can't afford a puppy from a show breeder. That raises a lot of questions in my mind. As just one example, Pashes often sells their pet quality puppies for as little as $1,000, as do other show breeders. If a prospective owner can't afford $1,000 to acquire their forever dog from a reputable show breeder, I have serious questions as to whether they can afford to provide quality healthcare for the lifetime of their pet. As with people, geriatric healthcare can be quite expensive!

The presence of champions in a puppy's pedigree is virtually meaningless. Unfortunately, many purebred backyard and petstore puppies will have champions in their pedigree. If the champions are in the first to third generation, I can only pray that the show breeders whose kennel names appear in such pedigrees learn something that helps them to prevent having their hard work and good reputations exploited in the future. 

As far as any of these puppies being "show potential", that's just a sad misrepresentation of reality. "Show potential" means that the puppy is the result of careful, knowledgable linebreeding of the best representations of the breed, as proven in the show ring. A reputable show breeder who has a "show *potential*" puppy will hold onto that puppy until it's older and a determination can be made if it's "show *quality*". If the puppy is show quality, the breeder keeps it for their own breeding program; they don't sell it to a pet home. 

I'm a little offended by the breeder who's the subject of this thread making the comment that she doubted that any of our dogs have as many champions in their pedigree as her puppies. Or that people on this list who ask questions about her breeding program are uneducated. My Maltese boy, whom I've been blessed to have for 10 years, came from a top show breeder. Both his CH sire and CH dam are on the Register of Merit (determined by number of champion offspring), as is his CH litter sister. Among other honors, his sire went Best of Breed at Westminster. The breeder held onto him as "show potential" until he was 6 months old. I got him for less than $1,000 and he came to me with a neuter contract, in spite of his illustrious lineage...because he.is.not.show.quality. There isn't a doubt in my mind that had a hobby breeder somehow managed to get their hands on him before he was neutered, they'd be selling his Champion lineage "show potential" puppies today.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Very well said and hopefully new members will understand why it is so important to get a puppy from a reputable breeder. I hope nobody minds but I am going to use Piper and her 5 generation pedigree as an example. Piper is 7 months old next week, she has a very nice silky coat, great black points, a perfect bite and she has a pretty face. Her sire's pedigree has 26 champions in 5 generations. (If I take it back to 7 years nearly all of the rest are champions.) Now, I am not an expert but have done tons of research on Maltese standards and have been going to shows since 1980. (My dream for when I grow up is to get back into the show ring and possibly breeding if I can find the right mentors.) The bad is: Piper is too long in body, has a slightly longer muzzle and a flag tail. Why???? Because the people I got her from were just breeding their dogs without any knowledge of breed standards. And the icing on the cake is.... both of Piper's parents came from petshops and puppy mills in Missouri and Oklahoma. So my point is, any dog can have champions in there pedigree but that doesn't mean that they should be bred.

To the breeder who this thread is regarding. It is my opinion that if you are unwilling to share the information regarding your bloodlines and who the show breeders are that you are closely working with, then you are keeping it a secret because it is not what you say it is. Most show breeders love to get their names out there and share their bloodlines. Again, that is just my opinion. If I am wrong, I will gladly apologize. You are afraid to put your dogs pedigrees on your webpage for fear that someone will steal it. I got some news for you. Anyone can order a pedigree on any AKC registered dog directly from the AKC website.


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

> OUR MALTESE FAMILY . . .
> We have several Maltese females used for breeding that are also our family pets.
> 
> 
> > Ok, this is bothering me so I have to ask. I quoted the above from the original AOL Homepage that was posted by the original poster. Your website you posted doesn't say those exact words. How long have you been breeding? Exactly how many is several females? How many litters do you have a year? From what I read on your website, you just had 2 litters a few days apart and you say you do not show your dogs...yet. For the show breeder members here, I ask if this is normal practice? I'm not trying to be mean or rude. These would be the same questions I would ask any breeder if I were looking for a new puppy.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Kim, I posted very similar questions from the American Maltese Association last night and asked this breeder to respond, but she chose not to.

As you say, most reputable breeders are delighted to talk pedigrees and share their bloodlines. These are not trade secrets.









I think the fact that this breeder has chosen not to divulge basic information about her breeding practices speaks volumes.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Jazzmalt,

Thank you for taking the time to articulate this as you did in your post.









This states so clearly the idea of what responsible breeding is about and I hope people will read your words and learn lessons that will help them to understand why it is so important to do your research and look for a breeder who is doing things the right way. This kind of answer is why this forum is so valuable. Thanks to Joe for providing a place for folks to learn from people who truly care about the breed.


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## Furbabymom (Dec 17, 2004)

I agree Jazzmalt articulated her post so well. 







='CloudClan' date='Jun 16 2007, 11:51 PM' post='392471'] Jazzmalt,

Thank you for taking the time to articulate this as you did in your post.









This states so clearly the idea of what responsible breeding is about and I hope people will read your words and learn lessons that will help them to understand why it is so important to do your research and look for a breeder who is doing things the right way. This kind of answer is why this forum is so valuable. Thanks to Joe for providing a place for folks to learn from people who truly care about the breed.








[/QUOTE]


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

I feel the need to go against the majority in this argument , a PRIVATE breeder should not be obliged to post their pedigrees on a PUBLIC forum . The breeder did offer to share pedigree information in private to several members , however the offer was declined . I'm actually rather uncomfortable with the tone of this thread. Valuable information has been shared , and it should be enough to help prospective buyers. Sarah


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I'm actually rather uncomfortable with the tone of this thread. Valuable information has been shared , and it should be enough to help prospective buyers. Sarah


I agree Sarah..
ANDREA


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> I feel the need to go against the majority in this argument , a PRIVATE breeder should not be obliged to post their pedigrees on a PUBLIC forum . The breeder did offer to share pedigree information in private to several members , however the offer was declined . I'm actually rather uncomfortable with the tone of this thread. Valuable information has been shared , and it should be enough to help prospective buyers. Sarah[/B]



Did you go back and read all the entire thread or just the last few posts? If you didn't read all the posts, you probably took the recent comments made out of context.

If you go back and read them all, you see the poster was concerned about the perception of her as breeder based upon her website and previous comments made here. Several of us have tried to get her to share more information to support her claims of champion lines, etc. and her breeding practices so that she has the opportunity to correct any misconceptions we may have.

Pedigrees sent privately in an email would do nothing to change public perception.

She claims to be a reputable breeder and has been given the opportunity to substantiate her remarks with some basic facts about her breeding operation. The questions we have asked her are suggested questions from the AMA for determining if a breeder is reputable or not. Her website is pretty scant, as one member put it. By telling us a little more, she could hopefully "fill in the blanks" that are missing on her website. I think the majority of us are still looking for the "valuable information" you think she has already provided.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=392493
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marj,I am sure Sarah meant well I meant that the valuable information was provided by all the other members posts, so this way when people read this they can understand.It's what I meant anyway, Sarah can post what she meant..
ANDREA


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=392534
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just my take on things ........

I read it the same way, I agree with what Sarah said, I think she made a very valid point, there has been some valuable information posted here for prospective buyers, with some great insight from a number of members, isn't that what this site is all about?? Sharing information?


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

Jazz, your comments were right on point. Thank you for posting them.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

so, this breeder is PUBLICLY selling her dogs, but doesn’t want to PUBLICLY advertise her pedigrees for perspective buyers??

that sounds more than a little bit odd to me. 

as you know, i have a poorly bred malt and one of a fine pedigree. 
i did more than enough research to ensure a quality malt for my second purchase.

her site did nothing but deter me from seeking anymore information to peruse a purchase. 
her posts here made me even more apprehensive.

there are no trade secrets when it comes to pedigrees. obviously people here know reputable breeders are proud of the linage they have so diligently strived for, they are willing to share them for the whole world to see. 

i would assume a breeder who would not so freely divulge information about their dogs to be hiding something.

in my opinion, if you're selling dogs of such a superb quality, there should be substantial information to back up that fact.


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

> I feel the need to go against the majority in this argument , a PRIVATE breeder should not be obliged to post their pedigrees on a PUBLIC forum . The breeder did offer to share pedigree information in private to several members , however the offer was declined . I'm actually rather uncomfortable with the tone of this thread. Valuable information has been shared , and it should be enough to help prospective buyers. Sarah[/B]



Very well said and thank you very much Sarah!!!! I do not feel the need to defend my breeding practices with members on this forum . And some of the women on here are extremely judgemental , and have no respect for others. And yes, the TONE of this thread speaks volumes of what kind of "ladies" are on here!



> I feel the need to go against the majority in this argument , a PRIVATE breeder should not be obliged to post their pedigrees on a PUBLIC forum . The breeder did offer to share pedigree information in private to several members , however the offer was declined . I'm actually rather uncomfortable with the tone of this thread. Valuable information has been shared , and it should be enough to help prospective buyers. Sarah[/B]



Very well said and thank you very much Sarah!!!! I do not feel the need to defend my breeding practices with members on this forum . And some of the women on here are extremely judgemental , and have no respect for others. And yes, the TONE of this thread speaks volumes of what kind of "ladies" are on here!


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

IMHO This is the best paragraph in four pages of postings and needs to be understood by all of us that love the Maltese breed.....including the breeder of discussion.




> The AKC standard for any breed reflectsts the ideal, perfect specimen of the breed. There is only one legitimate reason to ever breed a litter of puppies, regardless of breed. That reason is the potential to produce progeny that will improve upon the lineage of the parents in the breeder's ever illusive quest for perfection. There is only one way for a breeder to objectively know that they are making progress in their breeding program, and that is in the show ring. A responsible breeder is one who is putting their progeny in front of an AKC licensed judge in AKC competition.[/B]


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## Malteseforu (Jun 16, 2007)

> IMHO This is the best paragraph in four pages of postings and needs to be understood by all of us that love the Maltese breed.....including the breeder of discussion.
> 
> 
> QUOTE





> The AKC standard for any breed reflectsts the ideal, perfect specimen of the breed. There is only one legitimate reason to ever breed a litter of puppies, regardless of breed. That reason is the potential to produce progeny that will improve upon the lineage of the parents in the breeder's ever illusive quest for perfection. There is only one way for a breeder to objectively know that they are making progress in their breeding program, and that is in the show ring. A responsible breeder is one who is putting their progeny in front of an AKC licensed judge in AKC competition.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

I am not IGNORANT, irresponsible, uneducated, unethical, or otherwise. All the unsolicited "education" was unwarranted and some of the rude remarks by some. Of which, the original "subject" was, did anyone know about or hear about Whispering Hills Maltese in Mishawaka. You claim NONNY was right in contacting and asking all of you, whom know nothing about me, of which I made the statement that she could have asked for referrals (of which I have MANY) that she could have inquired from. And no, those referrals are not "selective". . .they are very happy and repeat customers, very satisfied! And they were sold on limited registration, spay/neuter. Exceptions are, "if" I have a show potential puppy, then I sell on Full reg. with no altering. And yes, I have sold in the past, a few "show potential" puppies at the appropriate age. Thank you other ladies out there who were "supportive" of me in this thread, and have a wonderful day!


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=392493
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marj , I was referring to the " valuable information " on choosing a puppy provided by members . I however feel this information has been lost in all the finger pointing . I have read every thread and my comments still stand . Sarah


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## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

> Nonny,
> 
> I happen to stumble across your posting @ Nov 2006, regarding "Me", wondering if anyone knew anything about "Whispering Hills Maltese".
> 
> ...



It is so sad people Judge before they know a thing about a breeder an sad thing is they get labeled fast. SAD SAD. YOu have every right to be upset and hurt. I have found being a breeder myself just because I don't have a fancy web page I don't show I get labeled as a BYB but sad to think if any of these people new how my dogs are raised cared for and how picky I am who they go to might change there tune. I don't have to brag to nobody on my babies but is so sad to see people judge you befor they new a thing about you. SAD SAD SAD. I don't even post pictures much do to the rude comment I got one time. I can't swallow how cruel adults can be no wonder our childeren are headed down the road they are today taught quite well by there elders . My little saying is what goes around come around ither ten times better or worse. 
I have not even looked at your site at all but I fully understand your feeling being hurt though. Being a breeder so sad to think there is so many people out there that judges so fast before they have any trueth or facts to fall on. Where their is some breeders have fancy web pages full of lies and they are supposely show breeders they get all the credit only if they new some of the stories behind those breeders would make their hearts brake in peices that some are just good talkers and would turn there insides inside out to know a story that some of those breeders go under so many differnet names and reg there dogs in so many different names would totally blow some people minds . But again that is why the word Breeder gets such a bad name cause of all the judging before anybody knows personally a thing about them . SAD sad sad
this is my story and I am so sorry you had to get judged before anybody new you , you did not deserve that at all.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=392629
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]

I am not IGNORANT, irresponsible, uneducated, unethical, or otherwise. All the unsolicited "education" was unwarranted and some of the rude remarks by some. Of which, the original "subject" was, did anyone know about or hear about Whispering Hills Maltese in Mishawaka. You claim NONNY was right in contacting and asking all of you, whom know nothing about me, of which I made the statement that she could have asked for referrals (of which I have MANY) that she could have inquired from. And no, those referrals are not "selective". . .they are very happy and repeat customers, very satisfied! And they were sold on limited registration, spay/neuter. Exceptions are, "if" I have a show potential puppy, then I sell on Full reg. with no altering. And yes, I have sold in the past, a few "show potential" puppies at the appropriate age. Thank you other ladies out there who were "supportive" of me in this thread, and have a wonderful day!
[/B][/QUOTE]

If you do not feel the need to defend your breeding practices on this forum why did you join and proceed to call up an almost 7 month old thread? Seems to me like it was for advertising if it wasn't to set the record straight. This is a public forum and people can discuss any breeder or website they want to and don't need to justify their opinions and reasoning.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I guess I am not going to get a response to my questions...whether or not people are offended. I still say that there are red flags on your website. Those remain for me the 3.5lb stud, the claim of "baby doll" look, and the advertising of "tea cup" maltese. I like to look at things from a postive perspective and say that you obviously love the breed and your dogs. I also think that you may be raising concerns here because of the state of your website...slick or not. It's the text that I am referring to that raises the red flags for me. The original poster was looking for a recommendation, which we share very freely here. We had nothing else to base our judgements on other than your website. You have not changed that, nor have you offered additional information (I am not referring to the pedigrees, but to those questions that I have asked which remain unanswered). I think there are some wonderful breeders here who could offer you some great advice. I will step up and say that I think Marj has raised some exceptionally valid points which are generic and should apply to any breeder. Obviously it is your choice to accept the standards she has posted (AMA and AKC ethics). In all honesty, I don't think her comments were hyper critical nor were they an attack. They, I believe, were intended to offer some great information on what we as consumers (people buying a dog) should look for in our breeder. In a more constructive criticism vein, based on your comments here and your website, I would not be inclined to purchase a dog from you. That does not mean that you are a bad person, or lack education, motivation or any other good qualities. It is a personal choice, as is anything else in life.


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## joe (Jan 5, 2003)

> If you do not feel the need to defend your breeding practices on this forum why did you join and proceed to call up an almost 7 month old thread? Seems to me like it was for advertising if it wasn't to set the record straight. This is a public forum and people can discuss any breeder or website they want to and don't need to justify their opinions and reasoning.[/B]


well said, the poster dug up a dead thread in a discussion forum but seems to not want any discussion ???

I dont think anyone was out of line or "labeling" anyone, great points were made and great questions asked, she doesnt wish to answer the questions in public even though she more or less opened it up for discussion

its not going anywhere and cant end well, soooooooo......

thread closed!


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