# Twelve Week Rule for Maltese



## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

"What if" the twelve week rule for maltese puppies is detrimental to their mental/emotional/behavioral health??? 

Seems like every week or so, the twelve week rule for maltese going to their new homes is brought up, and if someone is bringing or has brought their puppies home at anything less than twelve weeks of age, they are quickly informed that no reputable breeder would allow their puppies to go home under twelve weeks of age. 

I’m going to start with a disclaimer and say I really don’t know the correct answer as to what age the puppy should go it‘s new home. However, I really would like to be assured the socialization and developmental aspect for toy breeds such as maltese has been fully investigated and entertained.

I know about the argument that there’s a risk of hypoglycemia in young puppies, but why can’t “reputable breeders” do exactly what Karli’s breeder did - give the new puppy owner a full page instruction sheet on the risk for hypoglycemia, list the symptoms, and emphasize the need for regular feedings for puppies? Breeders could tell puppy owners to have Nutrical on hand just in case. 

My whole point of bringing this up is that I have read a stack of training books and I have done a thorough online search, and NOWHERE have I found evidence that toy breeds should be an exempted from the early socialization requirements and developmental stages . This really concerns me. Just do an online search of “Critical or Sensitive Periods of Puppies” and you’ll see what I’m talking about. 

The whole basis for my puppy socialization/developmental concerns are as follows: 

***The results of the Bar Harbor study on Critical Periods in A Puppies Development. This is a decades old study but is still very often quoted by dog trainers and behaviorists today. 

I’m posting a link to a site which explains the results of the Bar Harbor study. I found this very difficult emotionally to read, but I understand the rationale behind the study. 

Explanation of Critical Periods


Here’s what the American Kennel Club has on their site regarding socialization and puppy development:

Raising Well Adjusted Puppies


***As for the appropriate age to bring home a puppy, The American Veterinary Medical Association site recommends 6 - 10 weeks (no exclusions are listed for toy breeds). 

American Veterinary Medical Association's Brochure


The American Animal Hospital Association states in their "Bringing Up Puppy" recommendations that the 12 week socialization phase is over at 12 weeks.

AAHA's Bringing Up Puppy


***Another concern is my deductions from reading what top behaviorists recommend as far as age for puppy classes:

Note Dr. R.K. Anderson’s recommendation’s for the age of puppies to start puppy classes:

Veterinary Behaviorist R.K. Anderson's Letter


Also see Purdue’s recommendations for puppy classes:

Purdue's Puppy Class Recommendations


***I recently asked a couple of top veterinary behaviorists at two leading veterinary schools this question:

Will you please tell me what your recommendations are for the age of a toy breed puppy such as a maltese to go to it's new home?


Here’s the Director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Purdue’s answer: 

_We usually recommend not before 8 weeks. Unless the breeder goes to great lengths to socialize each puppy (best separately), I think a puppy should go to the new owners at the latest by 10 weeks._


And from a Professor of Behavior Medicine at Cornell:

_I have seen no data on the effects of re-homing Maltese at various ages. Certainly they should be in their new home before 14 weeks. I would plead that the breeders housebreak the puppies because failure to learn that skill is common in Maltese, perhaps because they have not been taken out on a leash to eliminate. Leaving puppies with no place to eliminate except the surface on which they live is not good.Perhaps litter training (Purina has a box and paper pellet litter) would be optimal for this small breed._ 



As you can see, I’ve gone to some of the top sources to see what they have to say about puppy socialization and the appropriate age for puppies to go to their new home and I wanted to share what I’ve found thus far. This stuff really worsens my case of insomnia.



Joy


*4-4-08* I just received this comment this afternoon from the Director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine. He is a Professor, Department of Clinical Sciences there:


_Joy, 12 weeks is best - assuming the breeder has a good setup (and socializes the pups properly). See Puppy's First Steps on Amazon.Com. ND_

I plan to order Puppy's First Steps. Sounds like a good book. Joy


*4-22-08 The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior has just released a position paper on puppy socialization.* 

Here's the link:
AVSAB Position Paper on Puppy Socialization


*4-22-08* In an attempt to try to be objective, I'm adding Marvistavet.com's *"Hypoglycemia in Toy Breeds"* Link:

Hypoglycemia in Toy Breeds


*4-22-08* Here's a great link to an article on animal mental wellness from the American Veterinary Medical Association site:

Development of a Mental Wellness Program in Animals


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## carolicious (Feb 25, 2008)

I always wondered about this too, why maltese should be brought home at the age of AT least 12 weeks. I know many poeple who have brought their toy breeds home at the age of 8-10 weeks and they developed into wonderful socialized puppies with no cases of hypoglycemia and such. Wouldn't it be okay for the puppy to come home as long as the new owners are properly informed about hypoglycemia and given a bottle of nutri-cal? I keep hearing about how initial socialization period is over at 12 weeks too.. so I'm very curious as to why this is as well and definitely interested in learning more behind the reasoning.


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

Very interesting, Joy. I've often wondered the same thing... You bring up some very good points.


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## Maxsmom (Aug 5, 2007)

I obtained Max when he was 7 months old. I had to re potty train him, and he was certainly set in his ways. (All ways that I loved, but not everyone.) I received Ollie at 7 weeks old. I do have to say that the breeder, despite scruples, did have me read and sign before I could take Ollie, a Health certificate noting, hypoglocemia symptoms and treatment. Things to have on hand. Symptoms to look for. Taking him to the vet for immediate review. The food that he was accustomed to. Luckily Ollie has been completely healthy with no altercations. Ollie is 22 weeks old now and very much a part of our family. He kisses the mailman! He loves everybody and I have had very few issues of training. I hired a trainer for Max, I don't think that I will need one for Ollie. He knows the routine. This is my bag. This is my carseat. This is my harness. This is where I do my business. He is a finicky eater, but I have had much less issues with Ollie. I'm sure that this is not true across the board, but we are doing very well with our little Ollie Bollie!

Love and Peace,

Chris


_Henry David Thoreau: _
*The most I can do for my friend is simply to be his friend. I have no wealth to bestow on him. If he knows that I am happy in loving him, he will want no other reward. Is not friendship divine in this?*


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

Part of it may be that new owners are frequently unavailable to be home with the puppy and you REALLY shouldn't leave a malt that young unattended for 8-10 hours, they can crash really easily. Even if a new owner is educated on using nutrical, if they aren't there, they won't see the puppy crash. New owners of all breeds are notorious even with a 12 week old puppy of not worrying about it if a puppy doesn't eat a meal, but you can get a puppy in shock without that nutrition that fast. 

Coccidia is also a huge concern. It is present in 50% of puppies, regardless of breed or breeder, and the stress of going to a new home will usually bring it out when it happens before their body can handle it. Any diarrhea in a puppy under 12 weeks should result in an immediate trip to the vet, or you may lose your pup. 

If an owner gets a puppy at 8 weeks, and then it went into shock, or had diarrhea and required hospitalization, chances are high, they would blame the breeder. Why wouldn't the breeder want to wait until you are minimizing the chance of having that happen?

A well bred maltese should have started puppy potty training at the breeders. There also should be socialization being done. Great genetics will outweigh all the socialization in the world, though, if you have a poorly bred dog. It is due diligence on the puppy buyer's part to make sure these things are happening. 

My guess would be that most breeders are not willing to risk that even ONE of their puppies die from a kind hearted but still negligent owner who does not realize how fast they can fade. After giving heart and soul to these tiny little babies, it would be beyond heartbreaking to have one lost. 

When my MIL has really tiny ones, she will hold on to them as long as it takes to feel good about their successful integration into a new home, which may be longer than 12 weeks. It depends on the individual puppy and how hardy they are and if everything is progressing as it should be. In the mean time, he or she is getting age appropriate socialization and going in the back yard to potty. If a very special buyer comes along who has the right type of home, she will let the baby go a little earlier than she might if they work full time, or have kids, or things that might make that careful supervision more challenging. 

In the end, as puppy buyers, we have to be respectful that the breeder is looking out for the puppy, not the puppy buyer. 

I expect a breeder to interview me, as much as I interview them, and I trust after I interview them and research them that they know their pups better than anyone else and are best suited to help me raise their baby. 


Shannon 





> I always wondered about this too, why maltese should be brought home at the age of AT least 12 weeks. I know many poeple who have brought their toy breeds home at the age of 8-10 weeks and they developed into wonderful socialized puppies with no cases of hypoglycemia and such. Wouldn't it be okay for the puppy to come home as long as the new owners are properly informed about hypoglycemia and given a bottle of nutri-cal? I keep hearing about how initial socialization period is over at 12 weeks too.. so I'm very curious as to why this is as well and definitely interested in learning more behind the reasoning.[/B]


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## Maxsmom (Aug 5, 2007)

> Part of it may be that new owners are frequently unavailable to be home with the puppy and you REALLY shouldn't leave a malt that young unattended for 8-10 hours, they can crash really easily.
> 
> 
> I totally agree with this. I am a stay at home Mom. I was so tense about Ollie having an episode at that age. I NEVER left him. If I had to pick up my children, drop them off, whatever. He went with me and I had prepared a special emergency kit to take along. I was (and still am actually) prepared. You also make some very valid points. It's totally something to be debated. Like I have said before, here in Georgia, you put your down payment on your baby the day he/she is borned or you don't get one. I am awaiting a little girl right now and will not take her before 12 weeks. But it has been a long wait. Also, I want to spend a little more time with Ollie all to myself! Yeah, I'm a little selfish!
> ...


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

> Part of it may be that new owners are frequently unavailable to be home with the puppy and you REALLY shouldn't leave a malt that young unattended for 8-10 hours, they can crash really easily. Even if a new owner is educated on using nutrical, if they aren't there, they won't see the puppy crash. New owners of all breeds are notorious even with a 12 week old puppy of not worrying about it if a puppy doesn't eat a meal, but you can get a puppy in shock without that nutrition that fast.
> 
> Coccidia is also a huge concern. It is present in 50% of puppies, regardless of breed or breeder, and the stress of going to a new home will usually bring it out when it happens before their body can handle it. Any diarrhea in a puppy under 12 weeks should result in an immediate trip to the vet, or you may lose your pup.
> 
> ...



What a great post!

Thank you! :thumbsup:


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

> Part of it may be that new owners are frequently unavailable to be home with the puppy and you REALLY shouldn't leave a malt that young unattended for 8-10 hours, they can crash really easily. Even if a new owner is educated on using nutrical, if they aren't there, they won't see the puppy crash. New owners of all breeds are notorious even with a 12 week old puppy of not worrying about it if a puppy doesn't eat a meal, but you can get a puppy in shock without that nutrition that fast.
> 
> Coccidia is also a huge concern. It is present in 50% of puppies, regardless of breed or breeder, and the stress of going to a new home will usually bring it out when it happens before their body can handle it. Any diarrhea in a puppy under 12 weeks should result in an immediate trip to the vet, or you may lose your pup.
> 
> ...




Will those of you who are on the twelve week side, please list CURRENT credible scientific data, studies, or a link to a credible site which would support the arguments for keeping the puppy with the breeder for twelve weeks? If this is true, there HAS to be something out there. I would not have so many concerns if I could read something from a veterinary source such as the AVMA or AAHA which states toy breeds should remain with the breeder until 12 weeks.


Joy


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## jazak (Feb 12, 2008)

Please read this, http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm I found it very informative.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

well, i know that reputable breeders keep their pups for that length of time...that’s one of the ways we discern which breeder is reputable or not. occasionally they even keep them longer to watch them for show. as breeders breed for show prospects i think maybe the pups need to be a certain age before they can get an idea if they like the looks of the dog for show or if it will be petted out. 

massimo came home with me when he was 8 weeks. i never once had a problem with him, 'course i was there with him 24/7 since i'm a SAHM. but i had also found that he was MUCH easier to train. i swear on anything, he was completely pad trained within one week. he's so very well behaved and truly understands what i expect of him. he’s not a big barker, he doesn’t run off, and is very friendly to company.

as for mini, i got her when she was 12 weeks. she is a PITA to potty train, i'm still experiencing issues with her. although she's very smart, picks up on tricks and what not and she's very healthy... she doesn't really understand what i want from her. also she's not very social and tends to bark quite a bit. 

however, i don't know if these differences are strictly personality related or due to the 12 week rule.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

> Please read this, http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm I found it very informative.[/B]



I've read this many times, and there MAY be valid points, I'd just like to see this backed up by scientific studies, or someone like the AVMA, or AAHA. Especially since there's all the other information from the behavioral viewpoint.





Joy


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## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

I brought my maltese home at 11 weeks old and my very small toy poodle at 14 weeks old. Both were under two pounds and are just fine. However I cannot imagine bringing a small breed home before that if they are very tiny. I think the twelve weeks rule is a good guideline since many tiny breed dogs have not even hit 2 pounds at 12 weeks old and must be monitored round the clock for hypoglycemia possibility. Also the tiniest of the smaller breed dogs hit their maturity and developmental marks at later stages than a larger dog who is allowed to go home at 8 weeks does.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Will those of you who are on the twelve week side, please list CURRENT credible scientific data, studies, or a link to a credible site which would support the arguments for keeping the puppy with the breeder for twelve weeks? If this is true, there HAS to be something out there. I would not have so many concerns if I could read something from a veterinary source such as the AVMA or AAHA which states toy breeds should remain with the breeder until 12 weeks.
> 
> Joy[/B]


Personally I trust what reputable breeders and the AMA say about the emotional and developmental needs of Maltese more than a "general' vet or vet association who likely has no data to go on and no personal experience with Maltese puppy development. 

The personal experience that reputable breeders have raising litters and seeing how the pups develop and what their medical and emotional needs are has value to me.


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

In general I like to always look at things from an "outside the box" viewpoint because I think in anything in life you can get in a rut and do things "just because". So I find this info very interesting!

I know you want data to back up the "not until 12 weeks" rule...here is my VERY non-researched, non-scientific answer--I don't know that you'll find any data because, to me, it's just common sense that the smaller and more delicate a living being is--the more chances of something happening to it whether it be from internal or external sources. Being a mom I guess I compare it to human babies--being with mother and siblings for as long as possible, to me, sounds like it would be the healthiest (nothing can replace the quality of breastmilk) and most readied socially. Who can do it better than mom? That's what nature intended. Now I know comparing humans to puppies is not the same as comparing apples to apples. A child daycare won't take an infant before a certain age--it just wouldn't be smart for obvious reasons--so why not the same with a puppy? 

Now, how "early" are you talking? I think 8-12 weeks is debatable. Earlier than that, common sense tells me no. Don't need data for that.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Great post Pam! ^

I have doubts that we will ever see any research or scientific papers on this issue. I can't imagine anyone requesting grant money for such a project on toy breeds. I think it is more about common sense than science.

BYBs, in general, want the pups out of there ASAP since money is their primary motivator. Reputable breeders keep them for 12 weeks because based on their experience in raising pups, it is the best thing for puppy and owner. It ensures that the pup has a better chance at survival and handling any issues that comes its way.

I cringe when I read that a first-time puppy owner is getting a Malt from a BYB at 8 weeks. They likely got no information from the breeder and often these pups come to their new homes with coccidia, colds, kennel cough, and the like. The owner has no information about hypoglycemia, feeding, etc. This can't be in the best interest of the puppy. And the younger the puppy is, the harder it is for them to overcome these issues.


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## Gail (Oct 14, 2007)

> I cringe when I read that a first-time puppy owner is getting a Malt from a BYB at 8 weeks. They likely got no information from the breeder and often these pups come to their new homes with coccidia, colds, kennel cough, and the like. The owner has no information about hypoglycemia, feeding, etc. This can't be in the best interest of the puppy. And the younger the puppy is, the harder it is for them to overcome these issues.[/B]


I got my puppy at 8 weeks and was informed about everything including hypoglycemia. She didn't have any of the illnesses you described and is doing well.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The health concerns for the fragile pup is why 12 weeks is recommended. 

As to the socialization - I have gotten puppies from 7 weeks up to 5 months. If they are properly socialized with the breeder (or wherever they are), then the age of being re-homed is not going to be of detriment to them. Just because a specific period of socialization ends at 12 weeks does not mean the puppy is unable to readily adjust to a new home. A reputable breeder puts the time in to have well-adjusted, happily socialized puppies. When you have 10 labrador puppies, this could be an issue. With 2 Maltese, its doable. 

The reason it is looked down upon with Maltese is because Joe Public does NOT understand how easy it is for a 9 week old puppy to be having seizures when you get home from work. 

Maltese are not the only breed where you will commonly see this recommendation. Look into other toy breeds and you will see similar suggestions - for the health of the puppy. 

This is not the first time you've brought up the same discussion - what exactly is your problem with it? I doubt anyone is going to do a study on how 12 week old toy breed puppies adapt to their new homes when properly socialized by the breeder.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Some breeders are even known for keeping their pups longer
than 12 weeks to insure their blood sugar levels stay stable for
a decent length of time. 
No matter what info the breeder may give on hypoglycemia it
doesn't mean the dog will not have an attack. Stress of a new home,
over stimulation (playing, etc) and not eating often enough can
cause a blood sugar drop significant enough to cause seizures and, yes,
even death. 
I would think anyone would be thrilled to wait until the pup is of an age
where they are more stable rather than worry about missing out on a few
weeks of new home socialization/bonding.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

What is socialization? 

According to the Random House Dictionary: a continuing process whereby an individual acquires a personal identity and learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills appropriate to his or her social position. 

The concern here, that I gather, is that by staying with the breeder for 2 more weeks, a puppy is missing out on this. Well, that is not necessarily the case. Many breeders put effort in to separating the pups from mom and littermates, kenneling them separately for travel, getting them out to play and interact, etc. They may receive much more variety of stimulus than by not leaving your home because the vaccines are not finished. 

Dogs do have periods where they are more "pliant" to taking on new things. So long as their needs are met during these periods, you are working towards a well-adjusted dog. 

With most average and larger sized dogs, they have to go outdoors to go to the bathroom. They quickly have to walk places because they are too large to carry around. So, by default, they will receive social time simply through potty training and getting their daily exercise. Toy breed pups tend to be sheltered from this. That extra time at the breeder can provide excellent socialization that they may not otherwise receive. 

Dogs are rehomed at various ages for various regions. A well-adjusted, well-socialized dog of any age will have an easier adjustment than one who is not. For example:
My 8 week old border collie pup cried at night at first
My 18 week old Maltese pup already knew about sleeping alone in a crate at night and was comfortable with it

My 8 week old border collie pup had to learn about traveling in the car
My 18 week old Maltese pup had already been toted around by the breeder and was use to car travel

In the same token, my 18 month old rescue Maltese had a harder time than the BC pup because he was out of his socialization period and had not previous received what he needed. He required rehab, not further socialization. 

Overall, I'd say the easiest transition was from the older, well-socialized puppy.


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## carolicious (Feb 25, 2008)

wow, these were all very informative. Thank you. I don't have a problem with the 12 week rule, but I just wondered what all the reasonings behind it were. Also if it depends on the individual pup's development stages, would a breeder allow someone they felt would take good care of the pup to take it home at let's say.. 10 weeks if they felt the puppy was ready? aka its baby teeth grown in, on puppy food, weaned from mother for a week, etc? Or is it a strict "rule" that pretty much every breeder sticks with? Just curious since it is mentioned that every puppy grows at its individual pace.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> wow, these were all very informative. Thank you. I don't have a problem with the 12 week rule, but I just wondered what all the reasonings behind it were. Also if it depends on the individual pup's development stages, would a breeder allow someone they felt would take good care of the pup to take it home at let's say.. 10 weeks if they felt the puppy was ready? aka its baby teeth grown in, on puppy food, weaned from mother for a week, etc? Or is it a strict "rule" that pretty much every breeder sticks with? Just curious since it is mentioned that every puppy grows at its individual pace.[/B]


I think almost every rule has exceptions to it.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> well, i know that reputable breeders keep their pups for that length of time...that’s one of the ways we discern which breeder is reputable or not. occasionally they even keep them longer to watch them for show. as breeders breed for show prospects i think maybe the pups need to be a certain age before they can get an idea if they like the looks of the dog for show or if it will be petted out.
> 
> massimo came home with me when he was 8 weeks. i never once had a problem with him, 'course i was there with him 24/7 since i'm a SAHM. but i had also found that he was MUCH easier to train. i swear on anything, he was completely pad trained within one week. he's so very well behaved and truly understands what i expect of him. he’s not a big barker, he doesn’t run off, and is very friendly to company.
> 
> ...


I want to add that a breeder can normally tell at the 8 week mark if a puppy is a good show prospect or not. Of course we have to worry about the bite, feet and such but normally we access the pups at exactly 8 weeks.

I have posted this link here on SM more than once to this study and here it is again. 
http://www.clabecmaltese.com/PuppyStages.html

Not only hypoglycemia is the concern to me. It is the critical fear imprint period between 8-10 weeks. I know for a fact that this is so from one of my previous puppies. I had a loud crash in my laundry room right by where he was standing. And as always I stay in touch with my puppy parents. I spoke with his mom not long ago and he is now over a year old and is afraid of loud noises. So to me this is proof.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Very interesting stuff. In my opinion it all depends on the size of the pup and if the breeder is doing the socialization needed. If the breeders has lots of dogs and doesn't do all the things I would do between about 8-12 weeks, then I want the puppy with me provided it is of good size and eating well. I would only consider taking home early if the puppy was a very robust one. In my case I am home alone with the puppy 24/7 and very aware of it needing frequent feedings. One thing I like is they are easier to potty train for outside (which is my preference) if they haven't been paper trained up to 12+ weeks.

I brought Shoni home at 11 wks. His breeder had the litter in a normal home enviroment and worked with the puppies every day. He was very comfortable in all situations at 11 wks. He was also running free with a couple of Mamma dogs and a couple of younger babies, which is good for teaching "dog" things I couldn't teach him. His mother has larger, faster maturing babies then a lot of maltese. He probably would have been fine to bring home a couple of weeks eariler. A good breeder can make that judgement if she is working with the puppies and knows them well.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Here's another interesting article regarding socialization from petplace.com

Importance of Socializing Pups





Joy


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

I am glad you posted this, it does bring up some interesting points. I know that for many breeders 122 weeks is a wonderful thing and the socialization and time with the litter is great. I have heard of people picking up their 12 week old pups and they are almost completely housebroken, wouldn't that be wonderful!!!

My Ty came home at around 8 weeks. He was the only pup in the litter (one sibling died shortly after birth). The plan was for the breeder to keep him til 9 or 10 weeks. But at about 6 weeks she called me and asked if I would like to bring him home earlier. He had fully weaned himself as soon as she introduced food, he had no litter mates to socialize with and once weaned the Mom was pretty indifferent to him. 

I brought him home, took two weeks off work and was fully prepared to deal with any issues of hypoglycemia tha might arise, they never did. He ate like a pig, bonded immediately and as far as I am concerned did just fine coming home at 8 weeks.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

It's statements like this one in this petplace.com article which haunt me and which motivate me to try to keep bringing up the importance of socialization:


"Puppy mills and their pet store outlets are incapable of providing what is needed and some veterinarians add fuel to the fire by advising against social contact for the first 3 to 4 months of life. Their reasons center around vaccination status and the potential for disease. While it is true that attention must be paid to health aspects, it is also true that one half of the pups born in the United States do not see their second birthday largely because of behavioral problems that stem from improper nurtural experiences in early life. Clearly this matter must be understood and addressed if viable, socially compatible pups are to be produced." 

(Underlining emphasis mine)





Joy


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> It's statements like this one in this petplace.com article which haunt me and which motivate me to try to keep bringing up the importance of socialization:
> 
> 
> "Puppy mills and their pet store outlets are incapable of providing what is needed and some veterinarians add fuel to the fire by advising against social contact for the first 3 to 4 months of life. Their reasons center around vaccination status and the potential for disease. While it is true that attention must be paid to health aspects, it is also true that one half of the pups born in the United States do not see their second birthday largely because of behavioral problems that stem from improper nurtural experiences in early life. Clearly this matter must be understood and addressed if viable, socially compatible pups are to be produced." (Underlining emphasis mine)
> ...


Joy, I am going to go a little off topic here. 

A dogs attitude and socialization can come from genetics also. I had a boy that had the shy attitude his whole life. He seemed to be timid to everything. I bought him at the age of 4 months. I raised this boy and went against my gut and bred him. Only to have two out of three of the puppies have his disposition. Needless to say this boy has been neutered and placed in a new home, with a lot less stress for him than I have here. 

The point I am trying to make is that if all breeders would breed to the Maltese Standard of temperament, which is 
"For all his diminutive size, the Maltese seems to be without fear, his trust and affectionate responsiveness are very 
appealing. He is among the gentlest mannered of all little dogs, yet he is lively and playful as well as vigorous." that would solve a lot of the issues that are arising in our breed. 

Sorry for going off topic.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=565640
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually that's a GOOD POINT! The petplace.com article states that the nature vs. nuture is about 50/50, so it's VERY important for breeders to not breed a dog with inheritable behavioral issues.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> It's statements like this one in this petplace.com article which haunt me and which motivate me to try to keep bringing up the importance of socialization:
> 
> 
> "Puppy mills and their pet store outlets are incapable of providing what is needed and some veterinarians add fuel to the fire by advising against social contact for the first 3 to 4 months of life. Their reasons center around vaccination status and the potential for disease. While it is true that attention must be paid to health aspects, it is also true that one half of the pups born in the United States do not see their second birthday largely because of behavioral problems that stem from improper nurtural experiences in early life. Clearly this matter must be understood and addressed if viable, socially compatible pups are to be produced." (Underlining emphasis mine)
> ...


Joy,

I agree with what you are saying 100%.

We have 2 dogs now which demonstrate some social impairment issues that is similar to what one might see with autistic behavior in children.

Max was about 12 weeks old and a very sick little puppy when we got him. It limited his experiences and interactions during the period from before 12 weeks to roughly 16 or 18 weeks. He could not play with Rocky, his interactions with us and his entire world were pretty minimum. Rocky was the dog who explored and got into everything and met all the new people. If Max tried to do any of this, he started coughing and choking... so he basically just laid there and did not interact.

Today Max just can not handle situations out of the norm. He gets along fine with Rocky & Chance and he seemed to like Gordo, when Gordo was with us. However... he was constantly fighting with Snowy... he was annoyed by Snowy's babies and wanted to be left alone... I'll just add to this that he is not too keen on our present rescues either! He also gets pretty upset if someone new comes to the house. In fact, it is pretty normal that (as an example) when Max gets stressed by a new situation, he will actually go outside and lay on the patio while watching the new people inside the house... Not the curious wanting to greet everyone behavior that a well socialized Maltese exhibits.

We have somewhat the same sort of issue now with one of the last group of rescues we have, Frisky. This is the girl which exhibits the compulsive running in circle behavior... She also does not seem as aware of the other dogs or as aware with the wanting to please attitude that most dogs have toward people. She just sort of seems to live in her own world... We have not gotten her to walk normally on a leash either... while all the rest of the 4 rescues are at the point now that they like to walk and go a little crazy when they see us with a leash...

While I have no proof, I do believe these types of behavior are at least partially related to socialization issues during early key periods of their development. In Frisky's case, I can only guess what she had to contend with while Max I at least know part of his history...

They are no different than little kids...

There are certainly plenty of examples around of children who experienced tough situations when they were young, over coming those early issues and going on to be normal well functioning people... My feeling is that life is sort of a crap shoot as it is... and I'm just of the opinion that for children or for little white dust mops with an attitude, they deserve the best chance possible of being normal and I think they get that by staying in their family as long as possible.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (jazak @ Apr 4 2008, 10:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=558692


> Please read this, http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm I found it very informative.[/B]






I'd like to know where Foxstone acquired the information about puppy maturity.

I've read *three* sources recently which state that toy breeds mature FASTER than large breeds :blink: , so I looked online to see if I could find a scientific article to support the fact that they do mature faster. Here's what I found:


Body-Weight Changes During Growth In Puppies of Different Breeds




Joy


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Joy, physical maturity and mental maturity are very different things. Do you have any articles on mental maturity. 

Having had both large and toy breed dogs, including litters, my experience has been that toy breeds are much less mentally mature than larger dogs. An 8 week old border collie puppy can be asked much more of than the equivalent chihuahua (chis are the litters I have raised). What's the literature say on this?


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Joy, Bob and I are fortunate to be near Olive Tree Maltese and our friend Jennifer. We have seen a huge difference in 8 weeks up to 12 weeks. By 12 weeks Jennifers pups are so different just having that socialization and being around Mom and siblings. 
We have also seen pups coming from BYB's at 6 to 8 weeks and in most cases, which we try to follow, those pups never achieve the independence and personality of those that come from great breeders and stay until 12 weeks at least.
I just saw a Malt today that Jennifer is trying to place. He came from a horrible lady down State and he was acquired at maybe 8 weeks if not 6 or 7. Shy, no personality, strange behavior. Sadly we have seen others from this "lady?" with this same problems. 
I fight with this lady all the time and report her, send mail, do all the harassing of her that I can. I know I will never change this one but it does my heart good to bug her.

Huge difference in 8 week old Malts that are not left with Mom and siblings and in a great home situation.

Marsha


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 11 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743275


> Joy, physical maturity and mental maturity are very different things. Do you have any articles on mental maturity.
> 
> Having had both large and toy breed dogs, including litters, my experience has been that toy breeds are much less mentally mature than larger dogs. An 8 week old border collie puppy can be asked much more of than the equivalent chihuahua (chis are the litters I have raised). What's the literature say on this?[/B]





Hey Jackie good try, but almost every dog person knows border collies are going to out perform any breed because of their extreme intelligence. 

I haven't looked online for a scientific study on mental development of small breeds, but I assume we can deduce from what the top behavior professionals say about puppy socialization that there's not much difference. From what little I've read, there's more information out there on specific breed "intelligence ranking" rather than large breed versus small breed "mental development".

All top veterinary behaviorists belong to one of two major behavior organizations, sometimes both of them. 
The Animal Behavior Resources Institute (ABRI) or the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB). Here's what they say about puppies:

*ABRI* on puppy socialization:

Puppy Vaccination and Socialization Should Go Together: (The first seven to eight weeks with the breeder, then puppies can go to their new homes):

*AVSAB* on puppy socialization:

AVSAB Position Paper on Puppy Socialization (See green highlighted area where puppies can go to classes at 7 - 8 weeks of age.


Again, note they recommend clean environments for the classes.



Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Stanley Coren is a dog expert who knows a whole lot about dogs, but I don't think his ranking of dog breeds is based on a totally scientific study. His ranking is fun to read nonetheless. I don't think many dog experts would argue that the Border Collie is one of the most intelligent breeds out there.


Dr. Coren's Intelligence Ranking By Breed





Joy


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 11 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743275


> Joy, physical maturity and mental maturity are very different things. Do you have any articles on mental maturity.
> 
> Having had both large and toy breed dogs, including litters, my experience has been that toy breeds are much less mentally mature than larger dogs. An 8 week old border collie puppy can be asked much more of than the equivalent chihuahua (chis are the litters I have raised). What's the literature say on this?[/B]



I would also like to see articles on the subject.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 11 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743275


> Joy, physical maturity and mental maturity are very different things. Do you have any articles on mental maturity.
> 
> Having had both large and toy breed dogs, including litters, my experience has been that toy breeds are much less mentally mature than larger dogs. An 8 week old border collie puppy can be asked much more of than the equivalent chihuahua (chis are the litters I have raised). What's the literature say on this?[/B]


I, too, like to go by the "seeing is believing" model! I've had two Malts at barely 8 weeks and one at 11+ weeks and there was a huge difference in temperament and ability to adjust, etc.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 12:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743271


> QUOTE (jazak @ Apr 4 2008, 10:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=558692





> Please read this, http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm I found it very informative.[/B]





I've read *three* sources recently which state that toy breeds mature FASTER than large breeds :blink: , so I looked online to see if I could find a scientific article to support the fact that they do mature faster. Here's what I found:


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not able to read this right now but I really question this, just from my limited experience with Snowy's babies. At least for them, the this entire time before they got to 12 weeks of age was a time for very rapid learning, maturing, behavior changes, etc.

As an example, if at 6 to 7 weeks they were to have been without their mom, I believe their survival would have been problematic because they simply were just learning how to eat on their own. Yet at 8 weeks, from a survival for survival standpoint, I have zero doubt that all would have been just fine without mom.

Yet with larger breed dogs, it seem that it is more or less normal for them to be weened at 6 weeks.

I really do think with smaller breed dogs there is more variability from liter to liter as a few ounces of body weight really does make a difference in what that dog is capable of.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 05:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743301


> QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 11 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743275





> Joy, physical maturity and mental maturity are very different things. Do you have any articles on mental maturity.
> 
> Having had both large and toy breed dogs, including litters, my experience has been that toy breeds are much less mentally mature than larger dogs. An 8 week old border collie puppy can be asked much more of than the equivalent chihuahua (chis are the litters I have raised). What's the literature say on this?[/B]


I, too, like to go by the "seeing is believing" model! I've had two Malts at barely 8 weeks and one at 11+ weeks and there was a huge difference in temperament and ability to adjust, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]



And I had the opposite experience. . . .

I acquired Misty my previous maltese at 8 weeks. I couldn't have had a better adjusted, easily trainable maltese.

Misty is the one that was a therapy dog all her life, including five years as a therapy dog at a maximum security prison. There is a few paragraphs written about her in the Maltese issue of Dog Fancy's Popular Dog Series. It's still on the shelves at pet stores.

On the other hand, Karli was a little older when I brought her home and she's a total sweetheart but she's very excitable. 

Also, as I've stated over and over, there's more to a dog's temperament than age. Behaviorists say 50% is nature (genetics) and 50% nurture (training and socialization).

I've even read that the nutritional status of the bitch affects temperament.




Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Mar 11 2009, 04:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743296


> QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 11 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743275





> Joy, physical maturity and mental maturity are very different things. Do you have any articles on mental maturity.
> 
> Having had both large and toy breed dogs, including litters, my experience has been that toy breeds are much less mentally mature than larger dogs. An 8 week old border collie puppy can be asked much more of than the equivalent chihuahua (chis are the litters I have raised). What's the literature say on this?[/B]



I would also like to see articles on the subject.
[/B][/QUOTE]




Here's a link to a section pages 22-23 in a Veterinary Pediatrics Manual (If the link works). It supports what the ABRI and the AVSAB says about puppies going to new homes at 7-8 weeks. Note there's no exceptions for toy breeds.

Canine Development




Joy


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I had saved this from somewhere on the net back in 2005. It was written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese. I think this is the most logical information I have heard yet about the 12-week rule:


*Written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese - 2005:*
"Let us examine this "rule of thumb" from the breeder's perspective and I believe you can see why it is in eveyone's best interest to wait until a pup reaches 12 weeks of age to go to a new home. In the end it is the overall health and well-being of each individual pup that is the fundamental reason, and some pups develop much faster than others. I will agree that 12 weeks sounds like a rather arbitrary generalization; one that just sounds like it will fit for the vast majority of pups. But, there are some fundamentally solid reasons why this age has become widely accepted, and I will cover most of them, below. 

First, though, let me preface everything I am about to say with the statement that there are extenuating circumstances running rampant out in the real world - so I will never arbitrarily condemn any decision over when a pup went into a new home without knowing the "whole story". Still, I would argue that anytime any toy breed pup is placed into a new home at an age that is younger than nine weeks - there really should be severe extenuating circumstances. 

As a breeder, my primary motivation is the perpetuation of a preferred "look and temperament" consistent within my own bloodline. To do this one must initially learn to understand not only how to read and interpret the words comprising a "breed standard" but, more importantly, how to apply the written definition in real physical terms to individual specimens of the breed. This does not happen overnight - but over years. 

As this is going on, new breeders begin to actually produce litters (hopefully with the help and advice of sincere friends and knowledgeable advisors) affording them the opportunity to see how the mysterious magic of genectics produces physical and temperamental characteristics in the offspring produced in a successive process of genetic selection. 

As time goes by, the breeder must continually plan ahead, sometimes two or three generations ahead. As pups are produced some will have very strong characteristics - both good and "not so good" - that are constantly produced by certain parents. It is in guiding this process toward an ultimate, well informed, vision of perfection that truly successful breeders emerge - breeders with a passion and a mission to ensure that your children, and their children, will have the opportunity to enjoy the same Maltese dog that we have today. 

So, why 12 weeks? 

First, a breeder must have outstanding dogs - both in phenotype (physical makeup) and in genotype (the predisposition to reproduce certain characteristics in their progeny) in order to enhance their odds of producing healthy, exceptionally well-bred litters. By retaining the pups as long as possible, the breeder can gain better insight into the individual characteristics of pups and make a better prediction of what those pups will look/act like at maturity. Holding on to pups longer enhances the breeder's odds of selecting the right pups for use within their breeding program. 

Naturally, new owners want to get their pup at the earliest possible age for many reasons - the most significant being to enjoy their baby's puppyhood for as long as possible but also it is so that they may have the biggest impact on early development and socialization of their new family member. 12 weeks has become a "standardized point in time" where both the breeder and the new pup owner can compromise. 

Second, most serious (common) health issues that might arise - heart problems, kidney problems, liver problems, patellar luxation, etc. - will not manifest in a very young puppy but are quite likely to be discovered by a conscientious and perceptive breeder by the time the pup reaches three months of age. So, let the pup stay with the breeder as long as possible, within reason, so that any latent infirmity might be discovered and both breeder and owner (not to mention the pup) can avoid a potentially disappointing and disturbing predicament. 

Third, breeders feel much more comfortable delivering a pup to a new owner with at least two sets of puppy shots. The natural antibodies contained in a bitch's milk will often neutralize the serum contained in a puppy immunization. So, there is the need to wait approximately 10 days to two weeks after weaning the pups off of their mother to administer the first immunization (DHLPP). We rarely, if ever, wean our pups prior to eight weeks of age - ususally it is closer to nine (or even ten) weeks. Allowing even one week of time (after they are no longer nursing) to pass before administering the first puppy booster shot will generally mean the pup is 9-10 weeks of age. The second puppy shot needs to come close, but not past, the date that is 21 days after the first shot. So, this generally happens right about 12 wks. Sound familiar? 

Fourth, leaving the pups to nurse their mom up until at least eight weeks of age generally provides the pups with a sufficient period of time to gradually wean them off of mom's milk and onto puppy food. Hypoglycemia is the biggest danger, and that danger is a very real threat during the weaning process and at the period of time when a new pup first goes away from the home it has known for its entire life. So, there is a bit of a balancing act here, too. One should allow the pups to wean very gradually off of the mother and onto solid food - they have small mouths and little jaw strength when very young (but sharp puppy teeth, lol). A smooth transition where they are still nursing mom, and also beginning to eat dog food reduces the chances of hypoglycemia significantly. Hypoglycemia is a blood-sugar imbalance that is brought on by either a failure to eat regularly and/or stress (such as going to a new home or becoming overstimulated or excited for prolonged periods of time). Hypoglycemia can come on quite suddenly and can kill a young puppy in a matter of mere minutes. Why take chances? 

Want another reason? 

Socialization by the mother. 

As the pups are starting to transition off of their mom, and onto puppy food, they are really now beginning to behave like little dogs. They are play-fighting with both mom and siblings, they are playing with toys, they are becoming much more acutely aware of the world outside their litter box. Again, allowing the pups to stay with mom for even an extra couple of weeks provides the mother with yet more of an opportunity to teach the pups to behave - to not bite mom so hard or show overzealous agression to siblings - believe me, she will put them "in their place" in a hearbeat. Let mother nature handle some of this early socialization for you - chances are mother nature is much better at this than most new puppy owners. I know I am quite conviced mother nature does it better than I do, myself. 

In the final analysis, 12 weeks is simply a generally acceptable point in time. But, it is the most logical time for so many reasons. Both the owner and the breeder want the pup to safely transition into a new environment with minimal risk and maximum chance to thrive. 12 weeks has simply become, in the case of toy breeds, the most widely accepted benchmark."


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Mar 11 2009, 05:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743309


> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 12:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743271





> QUOTE (jazak @ Apr 4 2008, 10:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=558692





> Please read this, http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm I found it very informative.[/B]





I've read *three* sources recently which state that toy breeds mature FASTER than large breeds :blink: , so I looked online to see if I could find a scientific article to support the fact that they do mature faster. Here's what I found:


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not able to read this right now but I really question this, just from my limited experience with Snowy's babies. At least for them, the this entire time before they got to 12 weeks of age was a time for very rapid learning, maturing, behavior changes, etc.

As an example, if at 6 to 7 weeks they were to have been without their mom, I believe their survival would have been problematic because they simply were just learning how to eat on their own. Yet at 8 weeks, from a survival for survival standpoint, I have zero doubt that all would have been just fine without mom.

Yet with larger breed dogs, it seem that it is more or less normal for them to be weened at 6 weeks.

I really do think with smaller breed dogs there is more variability from liter to liter as a few ounces of body weight really does make a difference in what that dog is capable of.
[/B][/QUOTE]





Steve, google "small dog breeds mature faster than large breeds" and you'll many references. 




Here's what the AKC says about small breeds maturing faster than large breeds:

AKC Breeder Resources




Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743362


> I had saved this from somewhere on the net back in 2005. It was written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese. I think this is the most logical information I have heard yet about the 12-week rule:[/B]



Sher, I asked time and time again where the scientific evidence is to back up these claims and no one has given me any. All I've really seen is a bunch of opinions from breeders.

I've given multiple credible, reputable sources from academia (about as high up as you can get without getting something documented by God Almighty) and you and a few other members seem to want to ignore them.


Joy


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 07:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743367


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743362





> I had saved this from somewhere on the net back in 2005. It was written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese. I think this is the most logical information I have heard yet about the 12-week rule:
> 
> . . .[/B]


Sher, I asked time and time again where the scientific evidence is to back up these claims and no one has given me any. All I've really seen is a bunch of opinions from breeders.

I've given multiple credible, reputable sources from academia (about as high up as you can get without asking God Almighty personally) and you seem to want to ignore them.

Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I trust a reputable, experienced breeder of Maltese who has witnessed behavior of litter after litter rather than generalized information. Besides, some of what has been said is just common sense and no amount of science will overrule it... such as wait until at least 2 rounds of shots are given ... wait because health issues can be detected, wait until the threat of hypoglycemia is lessened... there doesn't have to be scientific data ... this is just good ole common sense, for heaven's sake.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743374


> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 07:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743367





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743362





> I had saved this from somewhere on the net back in 2005. It was written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese. I think this is the most logical information I have heard yet about the 12-week rule:
> 
> 
> . . .[/B]


Sher, I asked time and time again where the scientific evidence is to back up these claims and no one has given me any. All I've really seen is a bunch of opinions from breeders.

I've given multiple credible, reputable sources from academia (about as high up as you can get without asking God Almighty personally) and you seem to want to ignore them.

Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I trust a reputable, experienced breeder of Maltese who has witnessed behavior of litter after litter rather than generalized information. Besides, some of what has been said is just common sense and no amount of science will overrule it... such as wait until at least 2 rounds of shots are given ... wait because health issues can be detected, wait until the threat of hypoglycemia is lessened... there doesn't have to be scientific data ... this is just good ole common sense, for heaven's sake.
[/B][/QUOTE]


That's your right. I prefer to go with what academia is currently (2009) recommending. 


Joy


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 06:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743375


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743374





> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 07:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743367





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743362





> I had saved this from somewhere on the net back in 2005. It was written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese. I think this is the most logical information I have heard yet about the 12-week rule:
> 
> . . . . .[/B]



Sher, I asked time and time again where the scientific evidence is to back up these claims and no one has given me any. All I've really seen is a bunch of opinions from breeders.

I've given multiple credible, reputable sources from academia (about as high up as you can get without asking God Almighty personally) and you seem to want to ignore them.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I trust a reputable, experienced breeder of Maltese who has witnessed behavior of litter after litter rather than generalized information. Besides, some of what has been said is just common sense and no amount of science will overrule it... such as wait until at least 2 rounds of shots are given ... wait because health issues can be detected, wait until the threat of hypoglycemia is lessened... there doesn't have to be scientific data ... this is just good ole common sense, for heaven's sake.
[/B][/QUOTE]


That's your right. I prefer to go with what academia is currently (2009) recommending. 

Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

And that's your prerogative. Why do you even start threads like this if all you're going to do is be demeaning to other posters? I just don't get it.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (mimi2 @ Mar 11 2009, 07:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743382


> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 06:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743375





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743374





> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 07:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743367





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743362





> I had saved this from somewhere on the net back in 2005. It was written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese. I think this is the most logical information I have heard yet about the 12-week rule:
> 
> . . .[/B]


Sher, I asked time and time again where the scientific evidence is to back up these claims and no one has given me any. All I've really seen is a bunch of opinions from breeders.

I've given multiple credible, reputable sources from academia (about as high up as you can get without asking God Almighty personally) and you seem to want to ignore them.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I trust a reputable, experienced breeder of Maltese who has witnessed behavior of litter after litter rather than generalized information. Besides, some of what has been said is just common sense and no amount of science will overrule it... such as wait until at least 2 rounds of shots are given ... wait because health issues can be detected, wait until the threat of hypoglycemia is lessened... there doesn't have to be scientific data ... this is just good ole common sense, for heaven's sake.
[/B][/QUOTE]


That's your right. I prefer to go with what academia is currently (2009) recommending. 


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

And that's your prerogative. Why do you even start threads like this if all you're going to do is be demeaning to other posters? I just don't get it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thoroughly read my first post. I started this thread because just about anyone who came on this forum and mentioned they purchased a puppy at less than twelve weeks was attacked. I researched the topic AFTER I read some books by behaviorists and what they were recommending for ages for puppies to go to new homes was different than what was posted on this forum.

I started this thread to be educational. It's confrontational because it contradicts traditional beliefs and previous statements on this forum.


Joy


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 06:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743384


> QUOTE (mimi2 @ Mar 11 2009, 07:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743382





> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 06:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743375





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743374





> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 07:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743367





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Mar 11 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743362





> I had saved this from somewhere on the net back in 2005. It was written by Larry Stanberry of Divine Maltese. I think this is the most logical information I have heard yet about the 12-week rule:
> 
> . . .[/B]


Sher, I asked time and time again where the scientific evidence is to back up these claims and no one has given me any. All I've really seen is a bunch of opinions from breeders.

I've given multiple credible, reputable sources from academia (about as high up as you can get without asking God Almighty personally) and you seem to want to ignore them.

Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I trust a reputable, experienced breeder of Maltese who has witnessed behavior of litter after litter rather than generalized information. Besides, some of what has been said is just common sense and no amount of science will overrule it... such as wait until at least 2 rounds of shots are given ... wait because health issues can be detected, wait until the threat of hypoglycemia is lessened... there doesn't have to be scientific data ... this is just good ole common sense, for heaven's sake.
[/B][/QUOTE]

That's your right. I prefer to go with what academia is currently (2009) recommending. 

Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

And that's your prerogative. Why do you even start threads like this if all you're going to do is be demeaning to other posters? I just don't get it.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Thoroughly read my first post. I started this thread because just about anyone who came on this forum and mentioned they purchased a puppy at less than twelve weeks was attacked. I researched the topic AFTER I read some books by behaviorists and what they were recommending for ages for puppies to go to new homes was different than what was posted on this forum.

I started this thread to be educational. So be it confrontational if it contradicts traditional beliefs.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

I've never seen anyone attacked for purchasing a puppy that is less than 12 weeks of age!!!!! I'm sure that other members have told them that it's not a good idea to bring home a puppy at less than 12 weeks, but not in an aggressive way.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

For me personally, no amount of articles and resources cited in this thread will make me change my way of doing things (abiding by the code of ethics provided by the American Maltese Association) I will do what is right for my puppies and that means hanging onto them until they are twelve weeks old (or later) They do not need their mom by that time (are usually weaned much earlier) but I just wouldn't take the risk of selling them sooner. Why would I?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Joy, you are missing my point. Border collie is just an example of a larger breed dog. Replace that with lab, golden, mutt, etc. It is not about intelligence, it is about the dog's maturity (ie what training would I start with an 8 week old rottie vs. chihuahua?, what could they handle?). What I am questioning is what experience with litters are these statement based upon? How many researchers have had 8 week old pups of a variety of breeds/sizes in their home? I would love to hear the results of that. 

The statements of Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua, etc. clubs is based upon many, many, many litters raised. It would seem to me that if multiple populations of reputable small breed breeders concur that pups should be held until 12 weeks (losing money for them to keep them longer), there is probably a good reason for it. People don't generally do something that loses them money and time just because. Why do you think, across small breeds, we see this?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 11 2009, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743399


> Joy, you are missing my point. Border collie is just an example of a larger breed dog. Replace that with lab, golden, mutt, etc. It is not about intelligence, it is about the dog's maturity (ie what training would I start with an 8 week old rottie vs. chihuahua?, what could they handle?). What I am questioning is what experience with litters are these statement based upon? How many researchers have had 8 week old pups of a variety of breeds/sizes in their home? I would love to hear the results of that.
> 
> The statements of Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua, etc. clubs is based upon many, many, many litters raised. It would seem to me that if multiple populations of reputable small breed breeders concur that pups should be held until 12 weeks (losing money for them to keep them longer), there is probably a good reason for it. People don't generally do something that loses them money and time just because. Why do you think, across small breeds, we see this?[/B]



I can think of two reasons:

1. because show breeders want to hold onto their dogs as long as possible

2. because it's always been done that way


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 07:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743403


> I can think of two reasons:
> 
> 1. because show breeders want to hold onto their dogs as long as possible
> 
> 2. because it's always been done that way[/B]



Actually, in the old days, it wasn't done that way. Why do show breeders want to hold on to the dogs so long?

Please note I am not trying to argue with you, but if you have a really good reason, I might be inclined to agree.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Foxstone Maltese also has an excellent article on their website about why Maltese puppies should stay with their moms and littermates until they are twelve weeks old.

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm

I personally trust the wisdom of the American Maltese Association, experienced and reputable Maltese breeders, and what K/C's Mom calls good old common sense. 

Joy, I know how strongly you feel about this subject and that is absolutely your right. As I have said before, I think this is an issue we might just have to agree to disagree on.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

With my own experiences, which have been MANY, I must say the 12-week rule applies.

I've had several 6-week-old pups, 7, 8, 9, and 10-week old pups. I have noticed a HUGE difference.

I definately stand by the 12-week rule, and nope, I do not have an article to back it up, so don't ask.

This is my own personal experience. I would never purchase from a breeder who did not stand by
the AMA code of ethics, simple as that.

I will explain more later, as I need to prepare for a foster arriving tomorrow, along with another on Saturday.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Mar 11 2009, 08:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743406


> Foxstone Maltese also has an excellent article on their website about why Maltese puppies should stay with their moms and littermates until they are twelve weeks old.
> 
> http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm
> 
> ...



Marj, that whole article was why I started today's posts about small breed puppies maturing faster than large breed puppies. Also, to date, the behaviorists are saying 7-8 weeks is long enough to be with Mom and littermates.


I really don't think anything current I would post from academia would change the minds of those indoctrinated by traditional views of the AMA.

My whole point in posting my original post was to show that there's some NEW views from academia about dog training and behavior and that we shouldn't be attacking posters who say they bring home a puppy at 8 weeks. Unless they've been removed, there were plenty of attacks prior to this thread.

I'm not a dog breeder but I'm no dummy either. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree (I am a Registered Health Information Administrator (RHIA), and worked several years at a teaching hospital so I know some of the ins and outs of academic research. One of my jobs was to assist medical researchers (physicians, PhDs) in medical research.

I have also been a manager of up to 62 people at a time, so I know how resistant to change people are to new ideas.




Joy


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## jodublin (Sep 27, 2006)

in the uk and ireland the kennel club rules say 8 weeks ? in ireland all pedigree pups need to be microchipped at 6 weeks.this is not yet a rule with the u.k .yet ? i think microchipping of pups is a good thing ? pups can also be tracked if sold by puppy farms ect ...jo


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Just wanted to add that I'm not anti-AMA, but I know better than to blindly follow what breed organizations do. Lest I further offend any maltese folks, I'd like to use a horse example of why I don't naively trust breed organizations to necessarily do what's best for the breed. Been there done that in the horse world.

My husband and I own a couple of Tennessee Walking horses for trail riding because they're naturally one of the most smooth-gaited horses. Because we love Tennessee Walkers, we used to frequently attend local horse shows. We've attended the world grand championships a few times. We have learned quickly that in the horse show world, it's primarily about politics, power, money, and greed, and a lot of the horse owners and trainers will do ANYTHING to win a championship - even if it's abusive. Why? Because a grand championship means a lot of prizes and awards in addition to millions of dollars afterwards in breeding related fees such as stud fees. 

I'm sure there's a few who show horses because they are like us and love the breed and enjoy riding, training and handling horses; likewise, I'm sure there's a few maltese breeders who are in it just because they enjoy it, but I'd be willing to bet that there's a quite a few who are in it for the prestige and the money.

My husband were at the 2006 Tennessee Walking Horse World Grand Championship where the Feds showed up. Almost all the entries for World Grand Championship were pulled. There wasn't a World Grand Champion that year. See the article below for an explanation.

What they do to horses to get them to walk with a high-stepped gait is sick, heartless, and cruel. (We use natural horsemanship training for training our horses.) Here's an article that explains some of what some horse trainers and owners will do to win a TWH championship. You can also read the regulations section to figure out that there's a lot which needs to be monitored. :


Celebration Not So Celebratory For Tennessee Walking Horses



Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 11 2009, 08:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743405


> QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 11 2009, 07:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=743403





> I can think of two reasons:
> 
> 1. because show breeders want to hold onto their dogs as long as possible
> 
> 2. because it's always been done that way[/B]



Actually, in the old days, it wasn't done that way. Why do show breeders want to hold on to the dogs so long?

Please note I am not trying to argue with you, but if you have a really good reason, I might be inclined to agree.
[/B][/QUOTE]





Because a lot of show breeders "officially" evaluate and grade their puppies for show potential/prospect no earlier than twelve weeks. 



Joy


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

You can evaluate at 8 weeks...and hold back anything you want to continue to look at. Most puppy evaluation programs are for 6-8 week old pups. Age to evaluate is personal preference, not breed-specific.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 12 2009, 07:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=744025


> You can evaluate at 8 weeks...and hold back anything you want to continue to look at. Most puppy evaluation programs are for 6-8 week old pups. Age to evaluate is personal preference, not breed-specific.[/B]





See this:

SM Thread




Joy


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

:beating a dead horse:


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

Joy,
If and when someone is willing to do an actual study with the comparison of toy breeds as opposed to mid-sized and larger breeds I am positive that they will come to the same conclusion that the breeders of toy breeds, with countless years and years of experience with raising toy breeds, have come too. 

As I am sure you are aware, many of these studies are done with mid-sized and larger dogs. The behavior experts have come to their conclusions again with a huge percentage of their test subjects/clientele being mid-sized and larger breeds.

Have you ever seen the mental damage done to a toy breed when trained with the heavier hand big dog tactics? I have.

You have your right to your opinion as does everyone else.....................however please do not discredit years of experience with one single toy breed, such as Maltese, as opposed to a veterinarian who has 6 to 8 years of schooling and has to learn multiple species............not only dogs but cats, horses, birds, cows, sheep, etc. all in only 6 years. Geezzz........our human doctors go a minimum of 8 years and they only have one species to learn about!!! I am sure that you are aware that there are actually toy breed vets that specialize in the toy breeds................why do you think that is? I have never heard of a mid-sized breed specialist or a large breed specialist............possibly there is but I have never heard of one. My vet, who just happened to be the valedictorian of his graduating class from CSU Veterinarian College, once told me that the whole content of his learning on nutrition consisted of 3 weeks of study. He has called me numerous times concerning newborns ie what to feed, how to tube a newborn and how much, etc. Now why would that be............could it be that he acknowledged that I actually have more experience with that particular subject.............hmmmmmmmmmmm. I am telling you this to show you that just because someone has a degree does not mean that they are an expert on toy breeds. My vet had worked with show breeders in Wyoming before he came here. He admits that it was a whole new education for him with my dogs because the show kennels he had worked with before were Dobermans and Corgis........in fact the dobies are still brought to him for him to do their ears.

Many behaviorists will tell you that their clientele is usually the larger than toy breed dogs..................not because toy breeds do not have behavior issues but because most toy breed owners can just pick their misbehaving dog up to eliminate a potential problem or bad behavior............. so I truly have a problem with putting any creditability on articles done UNLESS their subjects were actually toy breeds. When you can find documentation and/or research that was actually done with toy breeds, I will be happy to read it.

Years ago, the common age for puppies to go to a new home was 7 to 8 weeks old, however, through years of experience with numerous breeders and all the various toy breeds, it was found that on the average the puppies actually did better both physically and mentally with the transition when they were a bit older............12 weeks old being the average. We are currently even seeing some of the larger breeds being kept until 10 to 12 weeks old for the same reason. I guarantee you they are not doing this for any other reason but the puppies welfare. That’s 2 to 4 more weeks of feeding, pooper scooping, and house training not to mention all the extra time that goes into raising puppies............when done correctly.

We are currently having a huge problem with the toy breeds, as well as cats, due to vaccinations. They are/were being treated with the same dosages as the larger breeds and now we have new diseases such as vaccinosis, autoimmune related problems, etc. ............all because they tried to treat the toy breeds the same as the larger breeds.

I am sure that there is nothing that I have said that will change your mind and that is fine.............I just want to give others that might happen upon this thread to have another opinion that just happens to be based on 20 years of experience with the Maltese breed as well as the other countless breeders of the various toy breeds.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 12 2009, 06:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=744086


> QUOTE (JMM @ Mar 12 2009, 07:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=744025





> You can evaluate at 8 weeks...and hold back anything you want to continue to look at. Most puppy evaluation programs are for 6-8 week old pups. Age to evaluate is personal preference, not breed-specific.[/B]


See this:
SM Thread
Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually I am a huge advocate of the Hastings "Puppy Puzzle". I critique my puppies at 8 weeks old and then really do not critique them again until they are done growing other than the teeth and testicles, of course. Puppies body parts all grow at different times and stages and they literally can go through what I call the puppy uglies between 8 weeks old to somewhere around 10 to 12 months old.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Joy, clarification for you. You select at 8 weeks what you will hold back until 6 months. A show potential dog has its adult teeth in which means it is 6 months old. You cannot officially evaluate bite until the adult teeth have come in. 


QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 12 2009, 06:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=744086


> See this:
> 
> SM Thread
> 
> ...


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Joy - 
I'm not sure why you go on the assumption that reputable, conscientious breeders don't socialize their puppies. They are around other dogs, they are exposed to the normal activities of a household (i.e. vaccum, pots and pans), they are handled by several different people (other breeders, family members, guests, potential puppy adopters), they are groomed, may have a vet visit, etc. If they are well socialized by the breeder, then they adjust to a new home much easier, it doesn't matter what age they are placed. Plus, I don't believe that socialization stops at 12 weeks, its the owners responsibility to continue it.

I feel that these articles are to educate everyone, including breeders and the general public, the latter which generally (and unfortunately) purchase their puppies from pet stores and backyard breeders, where they get little to no socialization. Also, they are getting them at 8 weeks and this teaches the unknowing public the importance of socialization. Good breeders are very aware of the importance of socialization. 

JMHO (and experience thus far)


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Forgot to add that proper socialization of puppies should be another criteria for selecting a reputable breeder.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Mar 12 2009, 08:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=744097


> Joy,
> If and when someone is willing to do an actual study with the comparison of toy breeds as opposed to mid-sized and larger breeds I am positive that they will come to the same conclusion that the breeders of toy breeds, with countless years and years of experience with raising toy breeds, have come too.
> 
> As I am sure you are aware, many of these studies are done with mid-sized and larger dogs. The behavior experts have come to their conclusions again with a huge percentage of their test subjects/clientele being mid-sized and larger breeds.[/B]




I apologize for being a few days late in my response, but a friend from Luxembourg was at my parents for a few days. My parents hosted him as an exchange student twenty five years ago and he still comes to visit our family when he can. He is such a sweetheart and it was so wonderful to see him once again.



Besides what I've already posted, here's a few more reasons why I'm not changing my opinion about the AMA's 12 week rule.

It may take me several posts to include all the information and links I want to include, so be patient for a little bit till I get to the summary.



*Breed-Specific Studies: * 


Yes it's true that some of the earlier breed-specific studies like the one by Scott and Fuller in the mid-seventies at Jackson Laboratory were done on larger breeds. 

But since then, there have been many, many "breed-specific" studies done by many different veterinarians. There's studies from everything to breed-specific anatomic and physiologic differences , to breed-specific disease predispositions, to breed-specific nutritional needs, to breed-specific behaviors. 


The largest study of breed behavioral differences was done in 1985 by Hart and Miller. In that study, they looked at the behaviors of 56 breeds of dogs and even interviewed 48 veterinarians and 48 obedience judges to look at behavioral traits in dogs.

There's a whole lot of information about the studies in breed differences in James Serpell's book "The Domestic Dog"

See "Analyzing Breed and Gender Differences In Behavior" chaper on page 65, 66 here:

Link to a Chapter in "The Domestic Dog"

What's really exciting (at least to me) is that they are now studying the pharmacodynamic differences in breeds and are looking at breed specific drug response. 

Oh goodness, they're studying everything right down to genetic specifics between breeds. Just a couple of years ago while studying genetics, researchers found a haplotype that causes the small breeds to stay small. I find this very fascinating.

Here's a link to an abstract of that study:

Haplotype Abstract 

Also, I read not long ago they are very close to discovering a gene which causes aggression in dogs. They may have found it by now.

This is an aside, but behavioral researchers have even studied OWNER'S behavior on dog behavior and the effect of high protein diets on dog behavior.






Post to be continued . . . .


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Mar 12 2009, 08:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=744097


> Have you ever seen the mental damage done to a toy breed when trained with the heavier hand big dog tactics? I have. . . . . . . . . . .Many behaviorists will tell you that their clientele is usually the larger than toy breed dogs..................not because toy breeds do not have behavior issues but because most toy breed owners can just pick their misbehaving dog up to eliminate a potential problem or bad behavior............. so I truly have a problem with putting any creditability on articles done UNLESS their subjects were actually toy breeds. When you can find documentation and/or research that was actually done with toy breeds, I will be happy to read it.[/B]




*Have I Ever Seen the Mental Damage Done To a Toy Breed When Trained With The Heavier Hand Big Dog Tactics?*

No I haven't personally seen it. Thank goodness there's less and less of that going on. Unfortunately, there are still some bad trainers out there, but the good trainers and veterinary behaviorists are using positive motivational methods these days. 

In the past ten plus years I've gone through Level I obedience training with three dogs, two of the classes was with my maltese Misty and Karli, and one was with my golden retriever Sadie. What I observed in all three classes was different training techniques with different collars/leashes for the smaller breeds. It's not uncommon for trainers to have a separate class for toy breeds. In Karli's Level I Obedience Class, the dogs were separated by size.

Also wanted to mention the puppy classes the behaviorists are recommending are not anything like Level I Obedience Training. In Karli's Puppy Class, we did exercises to help the puppies get a head start with such things as: accepting being groomed, including how to clip toenails, potty training tips, tips for bonding with your puppy and getting them to accept you as leader. They also gave us suggestions to nip problem behaviors in the bud.

In puppy class, we did work on leash training and commands like sit, stay, and come, but it was nothing as intense and quick as Level I Obedience. I loved Karli's trainer. By the end of the Level I class, Karli was doing obedience commands using hand signals. Remember Millie, the presidential dog of George and Barbara Bush? One of Karli's instructors trained Millie. 


A lot of time in puppy class was spent letting the puppies play for socialization. It was interesting how the trainers divided the puppies up to play - it was the more dominant, rough housing ones in one pen and the more submissive, calmer ones in another pen.


I agree that trainers and behaviorists MAY see SLIGHTLY smaller numbers of the small dogs in their classes and clinics but I haven't done any digging to see if I can find online statistics. It's probably because the large breeds can be more problematic when there's behavioral problems.

I acquired my golden retriever from a lady who was getting ready to turn her in to rescue because of behavioral issues. Sadie was one of those "pull you down street and jump on you and knock you down" type dogs before I went through obedience training with her. 

In the dog training classes I've attended, there's been a whole lot of toy breeds in them and many of them had behavioral problems. You don't have to look any further than the training and behavior sections of this forum to see there's quite a few maltese with obedience and behavioral issues.



*Regarding Puppy Class and Retention*

There's a whole lot being published about the positives of puppy classes . One interesting benefit is an increased risk of retention in the home if a puppy has been to puppy class and obedience class. Most of us know the heartbreaking statistic that 50 % of all animals who enter a shelter are euthanized (3 - 4 million a year). A lot of them are euthanized simply because of behavior problems. I didn't look this stat up, but I think I've read that 25% of dogs who enter shelters are purebreds. In addition to the owner give-ups to shelters, there's the dogs who are turned over to different owners and rescues.


Here's a link to ABRI's article which summarizes the research on the link between puppy classes and retention in the home.

Link to ABRI abstract titled "Puppy Retention In The Home"




To Be Continued . . . . .


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Mar 12 2009, 08:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=744097


> You have your right to your opinion as does everyone else.....................however please do not discredit years of experience with one single toy breed, such as Maltese, as opposed to a veterinarian who has 6 to 8 years of schooling and has to learn multiple species............not only dogs but cats, horses, birds, cows, sheep, etc. all in only 6 years. Geezzz[/code]........our human doctors go a minimum of 8 years and they only have one species to learn about!!! I am sure that you are aware that there are actually toy breed vets that specialize in the toy breeds................why do you think that is? I have never heard of a mid-sized breed specialist or a large breed specialist............possibly there is but I have never heard of one. My vet, who just happened to be the valedictorian of his graduating class from CSU Veterinarian College, once told me that the whole content of his learning on nutrition consisted of 3 weeks of study. He has called me numerous times concerning newborns ie what to feed, how to tube a newborn and how much, etc. Now why would that be............could it be that he acknowledged that I actually have more experience with that particular subject.............hmmmmmmmmmmm. I am telling you this to show you that just because someone has a degree does not mean that they are an expert on toy breeds. My vet had worked with show breeders in Wyoming before he came here. He admits that it was a whole new education for him with my dogs because the show kennels he had worked with before were Dobermans and Corgis........in fact the dobies are still brought to him for him to do their ears. . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> . . . . .Years ago, the common age for puppies to go to a new home was 7 to 8 weeks old, however, through years of experience with numerous breeders and all the various toy breeds, it was found that on the average the puppies actually did better both physically and mentally with the transition when they were a bit older............12 weeks old being the average. We are currently even seeing some of the larger breeds being kept until 10 to 12 weeks old for the same reason. I guarantee you they are not doing this for any other reason but the puppies welfare. That’s 2 to 4 more weeks of feeding, pooper scooping, and house training not to mention all the extra time that goes into raising puppies............when done correctly.
> 
> ...





*Toy Breed Specialists:* 


I don't doubt there's veterinarians who just see toy breeds, but I googled "toy breed veterinarian" and didn't see any. Toy Breed isn't a recognized veterinary specialty:


The American Veterinary Medical Association recognized specialties are listed here. (You have to click on the down arrow to see a list):

Link to AVMA specialty list 




What we have in the area we live is "small animal veterinary practices", but that just means veterinarians for small animals smaller than livestock animals. My husband and I have both a small animal vet for our cat and dogs, and we have a large animal vet for our cattle and horses.



*Veterinary Training*


I'm not sure how old your veterinarian is, but I recently checked the curriculums of some of the top ten veterinary schools, and all of the ones I checked had a semester long nutrition course. With the nutrition course combined with courses such as biomedical sciences, biochemistry, physiology, and anatomy, today's veterinary students are quite educated in nutrition and the canine digestive process. Then there's the online sources for veterinarians such as veterinary researchers and their articles (both in professional journals and online). Don't forget that veterinarians have their forums too. With all this training access to resources from academia, I'm perfectly confident to trust a Veterinarian with nutritional advice these days. 

Because Colorado State is in your state, I've added a link to their latest Veterinary Curriculum:

2009/2010 Veterinary Curriculum


It really irks me when certain groups of people minimize the education of Veterinarians. 




*Vaccinosis*

I agree that little dogs are more susceptible to vaccinosis. There's an abstract on the AVMA site about adverse reactions within three days of vaccination. I'll be glad when more research is done and we can feel safe about getting our dogs vaccinated. I have such a dilemma in that there's high risk in my area for disease and zoonoses that I feel like when I weigh the risks versus benefits, I don't have an option other than to vaccinate. 
Link to AVMA Abstract




*Summary*


What veterinarians know at this point about subjects like puppies, nutrition and behavior isn't absolute. There's constantly new methodologies and new research. However, there's a whole lot more new information out there today than there was even a couple of years ago. I think it's our jobs as breeders and pet owners to be learning what's current at the academic level and be sharing that with fellow dog lovers.



What we have in March 2009 for recommendations for puppies to go to new homes from academia are listed below. *If the American Maltese Association has evidence otherwise as to ages puppies can go to new homes, they need to be taking the issue up with the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Animal Hospital Association, the Animal Behavior Resources Institute, the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists and the American Kennel Club. Even schools such as Purdue Veterinary School has similiar recommendations. I haven't had anything to do with their recommendations. I'm just posting what they say.:*

From the *American Veterinary Medical Association*:

_Six to 10 weeks is considered an ideal age for a puppy to move to a new home._


The *American Animal Hospital Assoc*iation's Recommendation: 

_The Social Life 
Socializing is one of the most important things you can do to train your young dog. Puppies are like sponges--ready to absorb all kinds of information about their world. In the first months of their lives, it's your job as a pet owner to teach them to bond with people and with other dogs and to be comfortable in unfamiliar situations. This is one of the most important things you can do for your fuzzy friend. The less afraid your puppy is of strange people and animals, the less likely she is to act defensively and attack another dog or even a child.
The socialization of puppies begins between three and four weeks of age (before most people bring their new pets home). This means that some of the work is left up to the puppy' mother. If your puppy has been raised by a careless owner or breeder, you may have an uphill battle to fight when you get her home. Luckily, your puppy will continue the socialization process until she is about 12 weeks old, so you have plenty of time to give her good experiences. First of all, make sure she bonds with you and your family. Show her that she can depend on you for affection, food and gentle leadership. Between the age of 8 and 12 weeks is the perfect time to enroll your puppy into puppy classes. Puppy preschool will help socialize your pup with other puppies in a safe environment. Most puppy classes will require that your puppy has their first set of vaccines.
_




*Behavior Organization's Recommendation*s:


Note : On both the ABRI and AVSAB sites they acknowledge the risks associated with puppy classes, but still recommend puppy classes IN A CLEAN ENVIRONMENT.



Before I list their recommendations I wanted to note that I know how strongly the behaviorists feel about these recommendations as I have read a response by the ASVAB to a veterinarian when the veterinarian contacted them to challenge their position on puppy classes. I haven't requested permission to post this response so I'm not putting the response online at this time. 



*American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior *
www.AVSABonline.org

_While puppies' immune systems are still developing during these early months, the combination of maternal immunity, primary vaccination, and appropriate care makes the risk of infection relatively small compared to the chance of death from a behavior problem. 
Veterinarians specializing in behavior recommend that owners take advantage of every safe opportunity to expose young puppies to the great variety of stimuli that they will experience in their lives. Enrolling in puppy classes prior to three months of age can be an excellent means of improving training, strengthening the human-animal bond, and socializing puppies in an environment where risk of illness can be minimized. 
For this reason, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior believes that it should be the standard of care for puppies to receive such socialization before they are fully vaccinated. 
In general, puppies can start puppy socialization classes as early as 7-8 weeks of age. Puppies should receive a minimum of one set of vaccines at least 7 days prior to the first class and a first deworming. They should be kept up-to-date on vaccines throughout the class._

*Animal Behavior Resources Institute*:

ABRI Articles Link


_Many veterinarians are making this early socialization and learning program part of a total wellness plan for breeders and new owners of puppies during the first 16 weeks of a puppy's life -- the first 7-8 weeks with the breeder and the next 8 weeks with the new owners. These socialization classes should enroll puppies from 8 to 12 weeks of age as a key part of any Wellness Program to improve the bond between pets and their people and increase retention of dogs in their first puppy home. (See -- JAVMA, Vol 223, No. 1, pages 61-66, 2003)_






Joy


3-17-09 Edited to add a paragraph from the *American Kennel Club*:

Link to AKC's "The First Seven Weeks: Raising Well Adjusted Puppies"

_Many animal behaviorists agree that socialization reaches its peak at the 49th day (7 weeks). At 8 to 9 weeks, the pup can go to his new owner and home. He has received human contact and love. He has been exposed to different environments and house breaking. Now you can choose with confidence your pup for future breeding and showing. And you can place the puppies you choose to sell according to their temperaments in homes with new owners. Different personalities will match different homes and families. The individual attention, interaction and love that puppies receive during their first seven weeks are invaluable and will reap lifetimes of rewards._


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

Good luck in getting your next Maltese puppy from a reputable Maltese show breeder before it is 12 weeks old.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Mar 17 2009, 04:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=747089


> Good luck in getting your next Maltese puppy from a reputable Maltese show breeder before it is 12 weeks old.[/B]





I have absolutely no plans to go that route for my next dog anyway. If and when I get another dog, it will most likely be a from a rescue or an owner who is looking to re-home. I won't have any problem finding another dog. I get a call every couple of weeks or so from people who ask me if I'd be willing to take dogs. Our friends and family know how our animals are loved and cared for and we're the first people they recommend when they know of a dog who is needing a home. A person is trying to give me a standard poodle for free right now.



Joy


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (vjw @ Mar 17 2009, 03:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=747144


> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Mar 17 2009, 04:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=747089





> Good luck in getting your next Maltese puppy from a reputable Maltese show breeder before it is 12 weeks old.[/B]





I have absolutely no plans to go that route for my next dog anyway. If and when I get another dog, it will most likely be a from a rescue or an owner who is looking to re-home. I won't have any problem finding another dog. I get a call every couple of weeks or so from people who ask me if I'd be willing to take dogs. Our friends and family know how our animals are loved and cared for and we're the first people they recommend when they know of a dog who is needing a home. A person is trying to give me a standard poodle for free right now.



Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]
How nice for you. :yes:


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

Joy,
I did a quick search on the internet and found numerous articles concerning toybreeds and the best age to go to a new home. Below are just a few of the ones I found that I thought you might find interesting. I was amazed at the amount of information that was out there..............when I have more than 15 minutes to spare I will go through more of it.


Professional Dog Trainer Melanie Schlaginhaufen - http://www.knowingdogs.com/Images/Choosing...Your_Family.pdf (see #8)

Small Dogs, Big Hearts By Darlene Arden an internationally recognized authority on Toy dogs and their care, and a Certified Animal Behavior Consultant. 
(see page 15) http://books.google.com/books?id=P9nNsmjbG...result#PPA40,M1 

A Good Breeder by TD Yandt a noted animal trainer http://www.noselicks.com/pb/wp_bf41505f/wp_bf41505f.html

CanineDimensions.com, Dog Obedience Training, Dog Training Specialists http://www.caninedimensions.com/dog-owners-mistake.cfm (see #9)

American Kennel Club - http://www.akc.org/press_center/akc_syndic...sk_AKC/0607.cfm "Every breeder has their own opinion about when the best time to let their puppies go to their new homes. Some go earlier and others go later. But the general rule of thumb is that puppies should go to their new homes in the 8-to-12 week-old age range. Toy breeds which are smaller than most dogs and very fragile at an early age usually stay with the breeder past 8 weeks. It is also important to note that most states have age requirements, usually 8 weeks, before puppies can be sold to the public."


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