# I'm at my wits end



## ablack (Jun 9, 2009)

I don't know what else to do about Tobey's biting. I have tried everything from the bitter apple spray, among other types of bitter sprays, I have tried the yelping out loud and saying "no bite", I have tried food reinforcement, I have even tried time outs.... nothing works! I was at PetSmart today and saw something that looked disturbing. It was one of those collars that give a small static correction. It said on the package that it's humane and is supposed to be for barking. I thought about using that for the biting, but something doesn't sit well with me about that. I mean, if I received a small static charge, it hurts. How do they know it doesn't hurt them? What do you guys think?

What do I do? He's starting to draw blood. In a month, I will be having twin two-year-old's here for a weekend and I don't want them to get bit.


----------



## littlemissy (May 19, 2009)

This issue probably has alot to do with the fact that you got him at nine weeks old way too early for a maltese as other members mentioned on other threads you posted. I don't really know what the best advice other than getting a trainer in your home is but I do have a general question- what part of your body does he have access to that he is drawing blood and biting you? You are in charge of what parts of your body he has access to. Does he have chew toys and are you redirecting him? Have you tried giving him a time out or restricting him to a certain area of your house for unacceptable behavior? You as the leader have to let him know that biting is not acceptable. I personally like the NILF program for strong willed dogs or for any dog to know who the leader of the pack is but I know many members here will probably disagree. I am sure your best bet is bringing a trainer in to observe the interaction between you two and please don't get those collars- it'll just traumatize him.


----------



## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

I'm not sure how long you've had Tobey, but stopping a puppy from biting will not happen in a few days or a few weeks. 

You need to be consistent with whatever method you choose. I would either say "No" or yelp and give a toy (or other appropriate chewie). If he continues to choose you as his chew toy, get up and remove yourself from the situation. If that means you leave the room, do it. You only have to leave for a little bit of time. Do not give any type of attention (this includes talking & eye contact!). You can return and continue to play calmly, if he does it again, repeat or discontinue play all together if he gets too crazy. 

Jax used to play bite with me and he would even grab onto my pant leg as I walked away. It's very difficult to leave the room with a puppy attached to your pants, but hey it worked!  Now he mouths, but doesn't bite.

You may want the kids to not play with him. If he does bite you hard enough that he is drawing blood I would give him a chew and leave, no more play after that. If he is unable to get on the couch you could use that as your place you go to, rather than a different room. 

Remember, almost all puppies will bite that is how they explore their world. You need to make sure you teach him how hard is too hard (that's my preference) or to not bite at all.


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Since according to your ticker your puppy is only just as the AMA recommendation for leaving the breeders home you are dealing with a very young puppy. He has to learn some important lessons. If he stayed with his mom and littermates he would have been learning about bite inhibition from them. Since he left them early it is up to you. Mandy's suggestions are right on. You need to let him know that biting does not give him your attention. Let him know it hurts and remove yourself from the situation. Puppies are often mouthy and they need to learn. 

The idea of a shock collar on any dog horrifies me, but especially on a puppy who is not yet 12 weeks old. :eek2_gelb2:

Also, when those twin two-year-olds are in your home you will need to keep them separated from your baby with only very limited interaction. Not because Tobey might hurt them, but because they could easily hurt Tobey and believe me he will remember how they treat him. Two year old babies (like puppies) do not understand their ability to hurt or injure.


----------



## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm sorry you are going through this. I hope JMM sees this thread. 
NEVER use any types of collars that give off electricity. And yes, keep him away from children. He has plenty of time to meet other children as he grows older. Maltese ar not made for children. LOL


----------



## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Please no shock collars ever, especially for a baby. :new_shocked: 

Have you tried giving your puppy a chewie, like a flossie or a beef tendon? Dogs love to chew, and I've found that if they have something like that, it helps. 

Also, your puppy is so young, extreme patience is needed. Don't give up. He will grow out of it if you are consistent.

Also, keep him away from children until he is older. 

I wish you the best. 

Jackie (JMM) is a trainer and she gives great advice.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

As the others have said, the problem is that you got Tobey too young. He missed valuable lessons in socialization from his mother, including bite inhibition. If he were still with his mom and littermates, bites that hard would get a very strong reaction. His mom would yelp in pain and ignore him until he could play nicely. He would quickly learn that the fun stops if he bites.

Since he missed those important lessons, you will have to teach him yourself:

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bite2.html


----------



## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

You have been given some great advice by others, so I will just add that whichever method you choose, stick with it -- don't try a new method every day because you think the previous one isn't working, it takes time...days, weeks, etc, for them to start learning not to bite. Pick one method, ie: "No bite" then remove whatever part of you he is biting, and stick with it. He will learn.


----------



## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

Ditto to what everyone said.

And PLEASE keep those 2 yr old toddlers separated from the puppy when they are there. Both for your puppy's safety and the children's. You can't expect several babies all together to go without somebody getting hurt. I'm sure you know that, but as a mom of skin kids, I always have to throw my 2 cents in. Good luck!


----------



## ablack (Jun 9, 2009)

I understand that I got him too early, but I didn't realize that until after I got him. I have been doing the yelping and giving him a chew toy consistently. It's mainly the hands that he keeps biting. Whenever I'm petting him mainly or playing with him.

And like I said, I didn't want to get that collar. I can't afford a trainer, so I'm sunk there. I could take him to obedience school, but they will also work on other things that he's already trained to do. *sighs*


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (ablack @ Jun 29 2009, 12:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798409


> I understand that I got him too early, but I didn't realize that until after I got him. I have been doing the yelping and giving him a chew toy consistently. It's mainly the hands that he keeps biting. Whenever I'm petting him mainly or playing with him.
> 
> And like I said, I didn't want to get that collar. I can't afford a trainer, so I'm sunk there. I could take him to obedience school, but they will also work on other things that he's already trained to do. *sighs*[/B]


You've gotten some great advice. You'll just have to be consistent and live through it. I remember having bite marks all over my arms. It's a puppy thing and will go away eventually. One other thing I used to do is the biting tended to occur most if I was on the floor playing with them. So if the biting started I would jump up, turn away and fold my arms across my chest. This worked well as they got older. They just didn't get it at first but eventually it worked. I also quit getting on the floor and would throw the ball, etc. from a chair. That helped for me, also.


----------



## LUCY N PETS (Apr 21, 2009)

I know you didn't know to bring a puppy home that young and away from her littermates and mother, but have you even notified the breeder you purchased him from and told them about all that you are going through. Maybe it will be a lesson for them to learn to at least not let other puppies leave so early.
I feel it might help others especially if they continue to breed maltese.
Just a suggestion. Sorry I have no other suggestions. everyone else has already addressed the real problem. Good luck though, One more thing I know a lot of breeders won't even sell you a maltese if there is a young child in the house because maltese are so fragile. Please keep the babies apart when they come to visit you. It will be a lot safer for all of them and might stop you having a large vet bill if something happened.


----------



## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

First and foremost, you must be patient. You only got your puppy 3 weeks ago if my math is correct.
Pick a method and stick with it. Your puppy is a bit too young for puppy obedience, although I would 
recommend it. He needs to have all of his shots before he can go out in public and be around other 
dogs. And as the others here have told you, do not introduce your puppy to the two year olds under
any circumstances. But mostly have fun with it and enjoy your puppy months. It goes by so fast it 
will make your head spin.


----------



## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

QUOTE (ablack @ Jun 29 2009, 12:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798409


> And like I said, I didn't want to get that collar. I can't afford a trainer, so I'm sunk there. I could take him to obedience school, but they will also work on other things that he's already trained to do. *sighs*[/B]


Obedience school is still worthwhile. If you think that he's already mastered a command that they are teaching, it would still help him to go over it with the instructor. He would learn that his training is necessary in different situations (not only with you at your house).
And because he is young a huge bonus of obedience school is that he will get the interaction with other puppies, socialization.
The instructor would probably have other tips to help you and Tobey.

That is good that you wrote "I don't want to get that collar." I can't even picture them being used on a larger breed, never mind a Maltese puppy. :yucky: 
Of course, I am not a doctor but I imagine that they could cause serious injury, stress, maybe even heart failure? 

This is a great forum to ask all your questions about Maltese. The members here have a lot of knowledge that can help you and Tobey.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

You will need to contain him while the toddlers are visiting. He's too young to be around young children and vice versa.
As for biting, some of that is due to teething. He's so very young that a trainer won't help much until he's at least a few
months older. He's just a baby! Use the avoidance methods others have mentioned. Other than that you will just have
to wait it out. It's a shame your breeder let him go at such a terribly early age.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (ablack @ Jun 29 2009, 12:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798409


> I understand that I got him too early, but I didn't realize that until after I got him. I have been doing the yelping and giving him a chew toy consistently. It's mainly the hands that he keeps biting. Whenever I'm petting him mainly or playing with him.[/B]


When he starts biting, stop petting or playing with him. Just ignore him. That's what his mom and littermates would do.


----------



## ablack (Jun 9, 2009)

I might have to tell them that the twins can't come here yet. Do you know at what age it'll be OK?


----------



## littlemissy (May 19, 2009)

I don't think two year olds can be counted on to be consistently gentle with a maltese of any age. Maltese whether a puppy or not can be injured with rough handling and in this situation I would not let Tobey near ANY children of any age until his biting issue subsides. I wouldn't stop having visitors but I would keep Tobey and the toddlers apart.

As Marj said go into full avoidance mode if he bites you when playing. If that doesn't work I would teach him a firm NO and then ignore. Whatever you do, you must do it exactly the same way very consistently each and every time he attempts to bite you. If you do he will eventually figure out that biting produces a negative result- being ignored, reprimanded, etc.


----------



## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

QUOTE (ablack @ Jun 29 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798442


> I might have to tell them that the twins can't come here yet. Do you know at what age it'll be OK?[/B]


Oh boy, you're not gonna like the answer! Every family/child is different...BUT...a lot of (responsible) breeders of toy breeds won't even sell to household that have kids under a certain age--we're talking anywhere from age 9 to 13 is the range I've most often heard. 

I got Ollie from a when my skin kids, girls, were 5 & 8...over the phone she didn't like the idea but agreed that she'd meet us. She liked our family and felt that Ollie would do well and that I would be responsible. Even though my kids were "responsible" and well-behaved girls at that age, I still had to monitor them ALL the time--I was a stay at home mom at the time so I had the opportunity. Not only did I have to watch out for my kids, but friend's of my kids who came over to visit, etc. Even the best-intentioned of kids is...only a kid....and two year old twins and a puppy...that's like almost guaranteed trouble, LOL!!


----------



## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (ablack @ Jun 29 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798442


> I might have to tell them that the twins can't come here yet. Do you know at what age it'll be OK?[/B]


I have learned this weekend that Maltese are not made for children! We visited some family and there were kids there ranging from 3-13 years old. The younger the kid, the more Gigi did not like them. Younger children love to pet dogs directly in their faces, and whether your dog has bitten anyone or not, ALL dogs still have teeth, therefore, ALL can bite. Younger children, might not listen as well as an older one. Many younger children tried to pick up Gigi, but since I was watching her, the minute one put both hands around her body, I immediately scolded them, because they had already known not to EVER pick up Gigi. And they love to get in her face. Many maltese have gotten seriously injured, and even died because children have accidently dropped them while they were being held. Younger children love to be very close to a dog. They love to smuther the dog, with love, but still frightening for any tiny dog. The younger children would not leave Gigi alone. They wanted to pet, and hug, and kiss, and walk, ect. My poor Gigi. 8 year olds+ are more understanding of dogs and are more gentle, but still are not understanding the extreme delicacy of a maltese dog. Older children are much calmer, younger children tend to be more fast moving and LOUD and are not very gentle. My Gigi is a year old and never has bitten anyone before but she is scared to death of younger children. You must watch like a hawk, if your maltese is around young children. Gigi likes calm people, and naturally gravitated to the older, more calmer children. Now I know why most small dogs are not for children. 

Me and Gigi are the same, we do not have patience for children. We were both happy when we had to leave. LOL


----------



## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

QUOTE (camfan @ Jun 29 2009, 02:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798450


> QUOTE (ablack @ Jun 29 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798442





> I might have to tell them that the twins can't come here yet. Do you know at what age it'll be OK?[/B]


Oh boy, you're not gonna like the answer! Every family/child is different...BUT...a lot of (responsible) breeders of toy breeds won't even sell to household that have kids under a certain age--we're talking anywhere from age 9 to 13 is the range I've most often heard. 

I got Ollie from a when my skin kids, girls, were 5 & 8...over the phone she didn't like the idea but agreed that she'd meet us. She liked our family and felt that Ollie would do well and that I would be responsible. Even though my kids were "responsible" and well-behaved girls at that age, I still had to monitor them ALL the time--I was a stay at home mom at the time so I had the opportunity. Not only did I have to watch out for my kids, but friend's of my kids who came over to visit, etc. Even the best-intentioned of kids is...only a kid....and two year old twins and a puppy...that's like almost guaranteed trouble, LOL!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Was going to add...my solution to keeping Ollie and guests (kid guests) separate was I had a permanant gate installed in the kitchen doorway and Ollie would stay in the kitchen. And I was with him most of the time in there anyway (that's where I spend most of my awake time when I'd be at home, not to mention that's where my computer is, etc.) if kids wanted to pat him they did so through the gate


----------



## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

The twins can come and visit, but you must keep Tobey either in an exercise pen or in a crate the entire time they are there...unless you are holding him. I never allow children to pet my dogs (no matter the dog's age) unless I am physically holding London. This is to protect both the child and the dog. If it's not possible for you to keep Tobey penned up or crated anytime the twins are there, then I would say that no, they can't come to visit. lol Ideally they would be 5-6 years old before letting Tobey out in the room with them.


----------



## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Jun 29 2009, 02:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798454


> QUOTE (ablack @ Jun 29 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798442





> I might have to tell them that the twins can't come here yet. Do you know at what age it'll be OK?[/B]


I have learned this weekend that Maltese are not made for children! We visited some family and there were kids there ranging from 3-13 years old. The younger the kid, the more Gigi did not like them. Younger children love to pet dogs directly in their faces, and whether your dog has bitten anyone or not, ALL dogs still have teeth, therefore, ALL can bite. Younger children, might not listen as well as an older one. Many younger children tried to pick up Gigi, but since I was watching her, the minute one put both hands around her body, I immediately scolded them, because they had already known not to EVER pick up Gigi. And they love to get in her face. Many maltese have gotten seriously injured, and even died because children have accidently dropped them while they were being held. Younger children love to be very close to a dog. They love to smuther the dog, with love, but still frightening for any tiny dog. The younger children would not leave Gigi alone. They wanted to pet, and hug, and kiss, and walk, ect. My poor Gigi. 8 year olds+ are more understanding of dogs and are more gentle, but still are not understanding the extreme delicacy of a maltese dog. Older children are much calmer, younger children tend to be more fast moving and LOUD and are not very gentle. My Gigi is a year old and never has bitten anyone before but she is scared to death of younger children. You must watch like a hawk, if your maltese is around young children. Gigi likes calm people, and naturally gravitated to the older, more calmer children. Now I know why most small dogs are not for children. 

Me and Gigi are the same, we do not have patience for children. We were both happy when we had to leave. LOL
[/B][/QUOTE]

I had almost the exact same experience when my little cousins came to visit! They would not let Roxy BREATHE!!!!! :smheat: 

It's not that I hate kids, I just hate when they don't LISTEN!!!!


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

What dogs learn with their mother and littermates is called bite inhibition. It means they learn how hard is too hard to bite. If your dog is drawing blood, you have a serious issue. You need to be very active in teaching how hard is too hard vs. no biting at all (bite prohibition). So if he mouths gently, praise him for being gentle. The second he is too hard, yelp, stand up and leave the room. You may need a baby gate or something so your pup cannot follow you out. Once he's got the mouthing vs. biting down, you can eliminate all mouthing if you like. 

Puppies can also get into frenzied biting. This is like a little kid who is overtired and cannot be consoled. If this happens, use the leash your pup is dragging to take him to his crate and happily put him up for a 15 minute break. 

Obedience class is much less about learning behavior in class than it is about socialization. This will be essential for your puppy. As soon as your pup is old enough for a puppy class that is based on positive, motivational methods, get in it! This is key socialization your dog NEEDS. The trainer will also be able to troubleshoot any issues with you.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

My granddaughter will be five in December and very good with pets, but I still never leave Lady alone with her. My grandson is only six months old, but he'll be mobile before long.

When they come to visit, Lady is always in her soft sided pen unless I can give her my 100% attention. It even has a zippered top to keep little hands out.

Here is my Siamese trying it out!


[attachment=54489en.jpg]


----------



## pebble's mama (Jun 1, 2008)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jun 29 2009, 04:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798537


> My granddaughter will be five in December and very good with pets, but I still never leave Lady alone with her. My grandson is only six months old, but he'll be mobile before long.
> 
> When they come to visit, Lady is always in her soft sided pen unless I van give her my 100% attention. It even has a zippered top to keep little hands out.
> 
> ...


I love Lady's pen! I've never seen anything like that before, where did you find it?


----------



## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jun 29 2009, 03:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798512


> What dogs learn with their mother and littermates is called bite inhibition. It means they learn how hard is too hard to bite. If your dog is drawing blood, you have a serious issue. You need to be very active in teaching how hard is too hard vs. no biting at all (bite prohibition). So if he mouths gently, praise him for being gentle. The second he is too hard, yelp, stand up and leave the room. You may need a baby gate or something so your pup cannot follow you out. Once he's got the mouthing vs. biting down, you can eliminate all mouthing if you like.
> 
> Puppies can also get into frenzied biting. This is like a little kid who is overtired and cannot be consoled. If this happens, use the leash your pup is dragging to take him to his crate and happily put him up for a 15 minute break.
> 
> Obedience class is much less about learning behavior in class than it is about socialization. This will be essential for your puppy. As soon as your pup is old enough for a puppy class that is based on positive, motivational methods, get in it! This is key socialization your dog NEEDS. The trainer will also be able to troubleshoot any issues with you.[/B]


 :goodpost:


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Pebble's Mama @ Jun 29 2009, 05:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798566


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Jun 29 2009, 04:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=798537





> My granddaughter will be five in December and very good with pets, but I still never leave Lady alone with her. My grandson is only six months old, but he'll be mobile before long.
> 
> When they come to visit, Lady is always in her soft sided pen unless I can give her my 100% attention. It even has a zippered top to keep little hands out.
> 
> ...


I love Lady's pen! I've never seen anything like that before, where did you find it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I got it on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pink-Pet-Tent-Exercise...93%3A1|294%3A30


----------



## Purple-peep (May 14, 2009)

We have been working very hard this week with Libby and her biting our hands. At all times, I have a toy in one hand for her to bite. I'm trying to redirect the bites to the toy. Also, when she bites and I've told her no bite and she continues, I get up and walk away. 

I does seem to be working.

Now we need to work on the humping and growls. LOL!


----------



## Kutsmail1 (Dec 26, 2007)

Pat, I have to say I love all of your pictures of Sassy, but this is one of my absolute favorites. That is so precious!


----------

