# Rules of SM



## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Hi everyone,

We have posted an updated set of rules in every forum area of the site. These rules are now more visible and easier to find than ever so it should take away any ambiguity in terms of how things go around here. Please review and let us know if we missed anything.

Yung


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Yung and Admin/Mod Team -- Thank you. Very nice job!! :aktion033:


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## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Btw, the rules can be found here.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

admin said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> We have posted an updated set of rules in every forum area of the site. These rules are now more visible and easier to find than ever so it should take away any ambiguity in terms of how things go around here. Please review and let us know if we missed anything.
> 
> Yung


I may be shooting myself in the foot here, but...

After having read the "Rules" it appears to me there some new ones added that were not included before. The one that stands out for me is:

Soliciting for stud service is not allowed and threads advising the community about available puppies from breeders is NOT allowed.


While I agree soliciting stud service should be a "no,no", the casual and infrequent notice from members about pups available from well known breeders should be. Yes, I know about the flap and the controversy that started this all. However, this forum since it's beginning has been an unbridled treasure trove for people looking for information about Maltese, including available pups. So after so many years of it running smoothly, why "fix" something that wasn't broken to begin with?

For what started last fall as *just* a change in ownership has evolved to something very different then the Spoiled Maltese I joined in the winter. Unless your a paying member, chat isn't available. At least pictures are still allowed to be posted without paying up. I know there's corporate involvement and your just doing your job, and what your told to do, but it certainly reminds me of MO ( :yucky: ), a place many of us here came from.


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## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Marsha, I'll address the breeders part later today or tomorrow. Thanks for bringing that up. As for the chat, to my understanding, it has ALWAYS been available ONLY to paying members. The only thing different was that Joe use to open it up for free on Saturday nights or something to extent to everyone. With this chat software, we don't have that option.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Starsmom said:


> I may be shooting myself in the foot here, but...
> 
> After having read the "Rules" it appears to me there some new ones added that were not included before. The one that stands out for me is:
> 
> ...


Marsha, 

This rule seemed to be a result not just of the thread that started all of that, but also of the very legitimate concern that some people have expressed about the very frequent posts from people sharing puppy available pages in the breeder section. While this has not been a concern shared by the whole forum there are a number of members who expressed their concerns about this a thread when Yung solicited our opinions. 

I do not think that the intention is to end our ability to help newbies do their research. I do think that this is really a way of clarifying something that Joe had as a rule previously which has not been followed. 

Here is a quote of a quote by Joe from years back: 

Originally Posted by joe 
_I dont know what I can do to clarify this, my brain is casually mentioning a breeder who has pups, posting pics of pups or even linking in a signature to a breeder still leaves it up to the person interested in a pup to do some research, ask questions and explore their options before making a decision

a breeder, or someone close to that breeder "advertising" pups can encourage impulse buying because it a "familiar" name at SM, many of you have mentioned how hard it is to say "no" and that is not a healthy decision for you or your pup and if allowed i do believe the forum would be flooded with "pup for sale" threads and then it turns into a market place where problems could arise, ie: "i saw a breeder post a wonderful picture of a pup on SM and I bought it and I am having health issues now, i thought it would be ok because it was on SM"

bottom line is i want to encourage research before a purchase and not provide a place where someone can sign on and buy a Maltese just because they want one and there is one for sale, protecting SM itself is another consideration in this

I know there is a fine line with my "rules" but I dont think I can make them any better, I do want members to find pups but i want to make it harder than signing on and choosing one, I hope you see where I am coming from even though I may not be clear or more specific and as always if anyone is in doubt of a post or considering their own post and not sure, you can PM me. _

Frankly, that some posts have been very close to this fine line of advertising and since there is no way to determine if the breeder themselves is encouraging threads advising that a breeder has available puppies is at the request of the breeder, it does make sense to me that a rule like this should be in place. 

IMHO, it is not important that we are allowed to post about puppies available. It is important that we can openly discuss breeders and encourage people to do their research. As I read the rules it does seem that we can continue to recommend breeders (i.e. direct people to consider breeders they may contact in their area while not directly linking to their puppies available). This is what I believe would be most helpful to those newbies. We can assist them in their research/education process.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

May I make a suggestion? Since some members have said that graphic posts or pictures (such as ones about puppymills, etc.) upset them, can we have a rule requiring us to post a warning about graphic content in the title?


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

Thank you Yung for your prompt response. 

"I'll address the breeders part later today or tomorrow." Hmmm, is this going to be a good thing for SM?? 

As for the chat issue, I don't recall the explanation you gave regarding the present software ever have been given. Thank you. I just miss getting to know the ladies in that medium.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> May I make a suggestion? Since some members have said that graphic posts or pictures (such as ones about puppymills, etc.) upset them, can we have a rule requiring us to post a warning about graphic content in the title?


*sigh* Do we really need more rules? Pretty soon we'll be having to re-reading the rules for every post we make because we can't remember them all.:smstarz:

While I'm very happy with most of these rules, the one about posting about reputable breeders who have available puppies is not one of them. I think we are doing a great disservice to those who are coming to SM to find out how to find a reputable breeder. And I've been talking to several breeders lately who did not want to see that particular rule put into place. And no...the breeders I've talked to are not the few that are always mentioned here on SM. So I'm not sure why there were others who apparently had that concern.

I'm not wanting to hear reasons why certain members feel this rule is needed. I've heard them all. I'm not closed minded, it's just my own opinion even AFTER reading the concerns. So please don't try to 'convince' me yet again.:mellow:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> *sigh* Do we really need more rules? Pretty soon we'll be having to re-reading the rules for every post we make because we can't remember them all.:smstarz:
> 
> While I'm very happy with most of these rules, the one about posting about reputable breeders who have available puppies is not one of them. I think we are doing a great disservice to those who are coming to SM to find out how to find a reputable breeder. And I've been talking to several breeders lately who did not want to see that particular rule put into place. And no...the breeders I've talked to are not the few that are always mentioned here on SM. So I'm not sure why there were others who apparently had that concern.
> 
> I'm not wanting to hear reasons why certain members feel this rule is needed. I've heard them all. I'm not closed minded, it's just my own opinion even AFTER reading the concerns. So please don't try to 'convince' me yet again.:mellow:


AMEN. (big time)


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Can we play 20 guesses as to who may have pups available rather than name just one breeder? LOL


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

On a more serious note...does this mean there will be no posting of rescue dogs available? It seems to me we're headed down a rocky road here.


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## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Cosy said:


> On a more serious note...does this mean there will be no posting of rescue dogs available? It seems to me we're headed down a rocky road here.


No..the rescue section is staying as is. I don't think we mentioned anything about the Rescue Section.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Ladysmom said:


> May I make a suggestion? Since some members have said that graphic posts or pictures (such as ones about puppymills, etc.) upset them, can we have a rule requiring us to post a warning about graphic content in the title?





Crystal&Zoe said:


> *sigh* Do we really need more rules? Pretty soon we'll be having to re-reading the rules for every post we make because we can't remember them all.:smstarz:


Did you see this thread, Crystal? Many of our members have previously requested a warning be posted about graphic/upsetting content in posts.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/72-sm-contributors-forum/104587-i-have-request.html

The other dog forums I belong to have such a rule.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

admin said:


> No..the rescue section is staying as is. I don't think we mentioned anything about the Rescue Section.


So people come here because they want help in finding a maltese puppy and no one is allowed to give them any direction except to point them to the AMA website with our hands over our eyes and mouthes. Then let's all jump all over them if they make a mistake. :thumbsup:

never mind. :blink:

You don't have to worry about me, I won't break the rules....but I guess I should go read them, I may already be breaking one...:w00t:.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Thank you for making the rules much clearer than before, Yung!!



Crystal&Zoe;1787012 While I'm very happy with most of these rules said:


> On the available puppy from breeders rule, I agree wholeheartedly with Crystal and Pat! I think our members do a great job of including virtually every AMA breeder in posting puppy availability, so long as they have a website that we can link to. In fact, I think new available puppies from the most "talked about" breeders (like Bonnie Palmer and Chrisman) are probably posted less than other breeders. (In Bonnie's case, I think it's probably because available pups are not on her website and she only usually sends pictures privately, not to share online.)
> 
> Also, speaking for myself, I am definitely up and over my limit on puppies :blink:, so looking at the available puppies from breeders section is almost like a second picture forum for me. I can't get another, but I can fantasize about unlimited number of gorgeous puppies, can't I?! :wub:


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

The A Team said:


> So people come here because they want help in finding a maltese puppy and no one is allowed to give them any direction except to point them to the AMA website with our hands over our eyes and mouthes. Then let's all jump all over them if they make a mistake. :thumbsup:
> 
> never mind. :blink:
> 
> You don't have to worry about me, I won't break the rules....but I guess I should go read them, I may already be breaking one...:w00t:.


Pat the new rule isn't that we can't point them in the right direction. I read it as no threads of "XYZ Breeder has Puppies Available". I personally do not like those threads to begin with. I don't agree with everyone who is or is not a reputable breeder. In my opinion the fact that who is or is not reputable is very debatable is the reason they decided to put this rule into place. Some breeders it is obvious they are brokers or puppy mills, but others hide it very well. I think the new rule just prevents those questionable (and the reputable) breeders from getting free advertising. Which is, in a way, a form of animal sales - something that is against the rules and everyone agrees on. 

I still think that if someone posts asking where they can find a Maltese in certain state we can point them to the breeders we know of in the area. If I'm incorrect in this assumption please let me know Yung. Then the poster can look/google for themselves, research and decide which of the breeders they like. It makes the new person more responsible for their own search.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Ladysmom said:


> Did you see this thread, Crystal? Many of our members have previously requested a warning be posted about graphic/upsetting content in posts.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/72-sm-contributors-forum/104587-i-have-request.html
> 
> The other dog forums I belong to have such a rule.


I think we should definitely be able to post about breeders and even our experience with them, what the heck is it all about if we can't :blink:
Marj, I agree about the warning, I don't want to open a thread and see pictures that will cause me to not sleep for a week, so a warning would be appreciated. I don't think that is to much to ask..


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

Thank you for the link to the rules Yung.....I read hrough them and I found it to be helpful to have them linked at the top of each forum. VERY easy to find now!!!!

As for the new rule regarding breeders, there was an intensive discussion that all members were invited to participate in via a public thread. I am certain that Yung and the powers that be read through the post and weighed each opinion and position. Then, like any government, board of directors, supervisor, president, etc., they made a decision that they felt would be most beneficial to the community while protecting the integrity of this site.

I do not envy Yung or his people, I am sure this decision was not made lightly nor easily.

As I read the rule, you cannot post that specific puppies are avaliable but can
(1) post your first hand experience concerning a breeder in response to an inquiry
(2) give newbies or others looking for breeders in their area links to the breeder's home page OR simply the name of the breeder.
(3) post about your experience with a breeder

As I read the rule it simply prohibits the posting of puppies for sale.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Hunter's Mom said:


> Thank you for the link to the rules Yung.....I read hrough them and I found it to be helpful to have them linked at the top of each forum. VERY easy to find now!!!!
> 
> As for the new rule regarding breeders, there was an intensive discussion that all members were invited to participate in via a public thread. I am certain that Yung and the powers that be read through the post and weighed each opinion and position. Then, like any government, board of directors, supervisor, president, etc., they made a decision that they felt would be most beneficial to the community while protecting the integrity of this site.
> 
> ...


Thank you for clarifying that for me. I did not really post in the discussion not sure why, just didn't. But I do believe it is helpful for anyone including me to be able to read about firsthand experience.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

Hunter's Mom said:


> Thank you for the link to the rules Yung.....I read hrough them and I found it to be helpful to have them linked at the top of each forum. VERY easy to find now!!!!
> 
> As for the new rule regarding breeders, there was an intensive discussion that all members were invited to participate in via a public thread. I am certain that Yung and the powers that be read through the post and weighed each opinion and position. Then, like any government, board of directors, supervisor, president, etc., they made a decision that they felt would be most beneficial to the community while protecting the integrity of this site.
> 
> ...


Great post! :aktion033:


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## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Hunter's Mom said:


> As I read the rule, you cannot post that specific puppies are avaliable but can
> (1) post your first hand experience concerning a breeder in response to an inquiry
> (2) give newbies or others looking for breeders in their area links to the breeder's home page OR simply the name of the breeder.
> (3) post about your experience with a breeder
> ...


Erin, you are correct. We're not saying you guys can't talk about breeders or discuss your experiences with a particular breeder.


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## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Folks, with regards to the rule about not posting about threads announcing puppies for sale from breeders, we (as in myself and the mod team) DO NOT have the time to go back to OLD threads and enforce this retroactively. That means we're not going to go remove them.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

admin said:


> Folks, with regards to the rule about not posting about threads announcing puppies for sale from breeders, we (as in myself and the mod team) DO NOT have the time to go back to OLD threads and enforce this retroactively. That means we're not going to go remove them.


I can understand and appreciate that removing the old threads would be a huge task and should be unnecessary (except for those who are now "bumping" old posts to continue the very thing that the new rules prohibit).


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

LOL! Yup, they'll just kinda keep adding to the old ones continually.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Sigh :mellow: -- the reason I have my beloved Tyler is because one of our members posted the link to Tyler's photo in his breeder's site. She was applying no pressure but "look at this cutie who's a really good price." I had done research, PM'd members, called them on the phone, checked the AMA list, breeders in and out of my area and many other avenues but I couldn't constantly keep checking the websites of the half dozen or so breeders I was interested in. I happen to work for a living So that thread helped me so much and I can't imagine my life without my special boy. Remember, I was a newbie then. Just sayin' it was really a service to me.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Snowbody said:


> Sigh :mellow: -- the reason I have my beloved Tyler is because one of our members posted the link to Tyler's photo in his breeder's site. She was applying no pressure but "look at this cutie who's a really good price." I had done research, PM'd members, called them on the phone, checked the AMA list, breeders in and out of my area and many other avenues but I couldn't constantly keep checking the websites of the half dozen or so breeders I was interested in. I happen to work for a living So that thread helped me so much and I can't imagine my life without my special boy. Remember, I was a newbie then. Just sayin' it was really a service to me.


Ouch. I happen to work for a living, too. And live alone. And care for multiple dogs. And attend dog shows and responsible dog ownership events to promote and educate about our lovely breed. And, for the past 10+ years have been more than active in rescue, actually taking in the castoffs (*so many of whom were impulse purchases*) to rehab, retrain and rehome. If someone told me they didn't have time to do some research in looking for a puppy or rescue dog, I'd be wondering how much time they'd have once the puppy or rescue dog actually arrived.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Wow! You mean if someone pointed you in the direction of a pup you were looking for and saved you some time you wouldn't be happy about that? I certainly would be!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Snowbody said:


> Sigh :mellow: -- the reason I have my beloved Tyler is because one of our members posted the link to Tyler's photo in his breeder's site. She was applying no pressure but "look at this cutie who's a really good price." I had done research, PM'd members, called them on the phone, checked the AMA list, breeders in and out of my area and many other avenues but I couldn't constantly keep checking the websites of the half dozen or so breeders I was interested in. I happen to work for a living So that thread helped me so much and I can't imagine my life without my special boy. Remember, I was a newbie then. Just sayin' it was really a service to me.





MaryH said:


> Ouch. I happen to work for a living, too. And live alone. And care for multiple dogs. And attend dog shows and responsible dog ownership events to promote and educate about our lovely breed. And, for the past 10+ years have been more than active in rescue, actually taking in the castoffs (*so many of whom were impulse purchases*) to rehab, retrain and rehome. If someone told me they didn't have time to do some research in looking for a puppy or rescue dog, I'd be wondering how much time they'd have once the puppy or rescue dog actually arrived.


Mary, I think that was just a tiny bit uncalled for. When you are a newbie and just learning what makes a breeder reputable, and even then finding out that some 'reputable breeders' may not really be, but know the lingo so they sound reputable, it does make it very confusing and difficult to find the right breeder. I simply do not understand why you feel this strongly about this when in the very beginning of the original thread that started this whole sorry mess, you were on the opposite side of the fence. I've spoken with 3 different breeders who are seldom if ever mentioned here on SM and they all feel that type of a thread is a helpful educational place for people to come and learn. Sue's research on finding her precious Tyler extended over a very long period of time. She PM'd several people here on SM, myself included, asking for our info and personal knowledge. Hardly what I would call an "*impulse purchase".* So yes, we were her research tool. However she only took info that was based on first hand knowledge. Yes most of it was done via PM's, but the PM's were because someone posted a thread about someone having puppies. Isn't that part of research? Making contact with those who are knowledgeable and have first hand info. in the subject you are researching?

Perhaps you've been doing this so long now you forget how difficult and confusing it can be to find not only a reputable breeder, but the right breeder for you. I truly respect you and think you a wonderful person and great breeder but feel you are a bit hard on those who don't have your extensive knowledge.

I'm truly beginning to wonder at the reasoning behind all these sudden rule suggestions. To me, it's not making SM a nicer place to be, but making it one like other forums many were unhappy with. And it's making many long time SM'rs unhappy.

Maybe I just need a little break. I'm unable to get here very often right now and every time I do, it seems that something like this is going on. I used to look forward to getting on SM, but now I almost dread seeing what new nonsense is developing. 

btw...I work more then full time, help with rescue and have fostered some, and STILL use SM as a research tool.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Snowbody said:


> Sigh :mellow: -- the reason I have my beloved Tyler is because one of our members posted the link to Tyler's photo in his breeder's site. She was applying no pressure but "look at this cutie who's a really good price." I had done research, PM'd members, called them on the phone, checked the AMA list, breeders in and out of my area and many other avenues but I couldn't constantly keep checking the websites of the half dozen or so breeders I was interested in. I happen to work for a living So that thread helped me so much and I can't imagine my life without my special boy. Remember, I was a newbie then. Just sayin' it was really a service to me.


Hi Susan,

I totally get where you are coming from on this. If someone hadn't posted the picture of Tyler maybe you would not have found him. 

I know I got my Clouseau after seeing his picture posted on the Petfinder website. And so I know how it feels to think there was some kind of kismet involved. Clearly this is the best case scenario. A lovely match made when the stars lined up in the right way. :wub:

I really think though that the rule of the forum (which I don't see as a new rule, but instead as a new enforcement and clarification of an old rule) is meant to prevent the worst case scenario. That is people using SM as a storefront window to sell puppies in a kind of back door. 

SM is very powerful. Many breeders know it. I have seen and heard long time breeders mention that they get puppy sales from this website and frankly some do see it as a source of advertising. While I think many breeders rely on earning the respect of the "Maltese Pet Community" others actively solicit assistance in announcing the arrival of their puppies and even ask people to post for them here. The problem is that it is difficult to determine which is which. I think that is where this rule comes in. 

IMHO, the ideal is for us as a Maltese Community to be able to share as much accurate and honest and fair information as possible. I believe that means that when someone comes here looking for a Maltese we should be able to refer them to the breeders we know and have respect for. We should even IMO be able to refer them to the websites of those breeders. But I guess I don't feel the same necessity of sharing puppy pictures and available puppy pages on those websites. It seems to me that all puppies are cute. But the first step in anyone's research process when looking for a puppy should be to learn more about the breeder, and her adult Maltese in the breeding program, their show records, and their pedigrees. Yes, that means they have to learn a lot about what those things mean, but again hopefully we can continue to be helpful in that regard. :innocent:


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree with you, Carina, but we usually post links to the website rather than the actual pics themselves. I know I don't post puppy pics for anyone. If you just link them to the website what's the diff? Same place the pups are, no? I saw a newbie post how great the breeder was of her new dog only to find out it was sold at 8 wks and it's not on the AMA list nor has anyone heard of it before. Now THAT'S something to worry about. I can assure you breeders can easily find buyers here without advertising. It happens all the time. Bonnie doesn't have a puppy page and yet she's inundated due to those of us who have her cute dogs.
Do we not post our pics since it helps to sell her pups?


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

As you could see by my starting my post with a sigh, I was just stating my first hand experience with this topic.I wasn't trying to change things or become confrontational. I was just stating the view from here, and with the sigh, that it worked for me. If the rules changed, the rules changed but I'm sad to see it for newcomers.
I feel like I was unjustly bashed by you Mary (I've always respected you and in fact met you at Meet the Breeds where I was trying to learn more about dogs) by thinking that I was not diligently trying to find a pup (it took me 10 months!!! - hardly an impulse).I petsat a friend's Maltese over a two year period to know if it was right for me to get a pup at all esp,. a Maltese. I considered adoption but having raised a child with special needs for 19 years, I wanted to try to hedge my bets a little. I've had to home cook every meal for my family for 15 of those years, not out of choice, but out of keeping my child alive since one bite or sip of the wrong food could kill him. And I've worked for 33 years, full time and 20 of them as a business owner so that we could keep a roof over our heads. As Crystal said, I PM'd people and called them and tried to make the best decision. 
As for wondering how much time I have for Tyler now, I don't even think I have to dignify that with an answer. Most of you know how I feel about Tyler and how I take care of him.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Mary, I think that was just a tiny bit uncalled for. When you are a newbie and just learning what makes a breeder reputable, and even then finding out that some 'reputable breeders' may not really be, but know the lingo so they sound reputable, it does make it very confusing and difficult to find the right breeder. I simply do not understand why you feel this strongly about this when in the very beginning of the original thread that started this whole sorry mess, you were on the opposite side of the fence. I've spoken with 3 different breeders who are seldom if ever mentioned here on SM and they all feel that type of a thread is a helpful educational place for people to come and learn. Sue's research on finding her precious Tyler extended over a very long period of time. She PM'd several people here on SM, myself included, asking for our info and personal knowledge. Hardly what I would call an "*impulse purchase".* So yes, we were her research tool. However she only took info that was based on first hand knowledge. Yes most of it was done via PM's, but the PM's were because someone posted a thread about someone having puppies. Isn't that part of research? Making contact with those who are knowledgeable and have first hand info. in the subject you are researching?
> 
> Perhaps you've been doing this so long now you forget how difficult and confusing it can be to find not only a reputable breeder, but the right breeder for you. I truly respect you and think you a wonderful person and great breeder but feel you are a bit hard on those who don't have your extensive knowledge.
> 
> ...



:goodpost: I've learned a lot here, and found my Nikki because someone told me that Janet had available puppies. Regarding the SM "drama," well, it's here and everywhere on the internet. Very draining at times.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> *sigh* Do we really need more rules? Pretty soon we'll be having to re-reading the rules for every post we make because we can't remember them all.:smstarz:
> 
> While I'm very happy with most of these rules, the one about posting about reputable breeders who have available puppies is not one of them. I think we are doing a great disservice to those who are coming to SM to find out how to find a reputable breeder. And I've been talking to several breeders lately who did not want to see that particular rule put into place. And no...the breeders I've talked to are not the few that are always mentioned here on SM. So I'm not sure why there were others who apparently had that concern.
> 
> I'm not wanting to hear reasons why certain members feel this rule is needed. I've heard them all. I'm not closed minded, it's just my own opinion even AFTER reading the concerns. So please don't try to 'convince' me yet again.:mellow:



I was the one who originally asked for a warning label on graphic photos of abused dogs. I don't think it's too much of a burden for folks to warn others, especially when photos of abused dogs upset some people for a long time.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Snowbody said:


> As you could see by my starting my post with a sigh, I was just stating my first hand experience with this topic.I wasn't trying to change things or become confrontational. I was just stating the view from here, and with the sigh, that it worked for me. If the rules changed, the rules changed but I'm sad to see it for newcomers.
> I feel like I was unjustly bashed by you Mary (I've always respected you and in fact met you at Meet the Breeds where I was trying to learn more about dogs) by thinking that I was not diligently trying to find a pup (it took me 10 months!!! - hardly an impulse).I petsat a friend's Maltese over a two year period to know if it was right for me to get a pup at all esp,. a Maltese. I considered adoption but having raised a child with special needs for 19 years, I wanted to try to hedge my bets a little. I've had to home cook every meal for my family for 15 of those years, not out of choice, but out of keeping my child alive since one bite or sip of the wrong food could kill him. And I've worked for 33 years, full time and 20 of them as a business owner so that we could keep a roof over our heads. As Crystal said, I PM'd people and called them and tried to make the best decision.
> As for wondering how much time I have for Tyler now, I don't even think I have to dignify that with an answer. Most of you know how I feel about Tyler and how I take care of him.


There could hardly be a more responsible and thoughtful pet owner than Sue, and even she benefited from someone pointing out a specific available puppy. The fact is, puppies become available and then sometimes get scooped up very quickly. It just takes one buyer. And if you have done alot of research, you are probably rather specific in what you are looking for; thus, you might very well miss your perfect match by just a few hours. So I do think it's very helpful to get an update on what a breeder might have available. That doesn't taken away from the amount of research someone has done, does it? Anyway, it doesn't seem that the rule is going to get changed, but I just don't agree that linking to Tyler's picture led to an impulse purchase on Sue's part because that's clearly not true. She became a very good Mommy to Tyler starting two years before she met him.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

princessre said:


> There could hardly be a more responsible and thoughtful pet owner than Sue, and even she benefited from someone pointing out a specific available puppy. The fact is, puppies become available and then sometimes get scooped up very quickly. It just takes one buyer. And if you have done alot of research, you are probably rather specific in what you are looking for; thus, you might very well miss your perfect match by just a few hours. So I do think it's very helpful to get an update on what a breeder might have available. That doesn't taken away from the amount of research someone has done, does it? Anyway, it doesn't seem that the rule is going to get changed, but I just don't agree that linking to Tyler's picture led to an impulse purchase on Sue's part because that's clearly not true. She became a very good Mommy to Tyler starting two years before she met him.


ditto....:goodpost:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

The A Team said:


> ditto....:goodpost:



Double Ditto

:amen:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I was the one who originally asked for a warning label on graphic photos of abused dogs. I don't think it's too much of a burden for folks to warn others, especially when photos of abused dogs upset some people for a long time.


No I don't think it's too much to ask at all. And since it's usually the same group of people that tend to post those types of things because of their passion with rescue, I think they are aware of it or could be made aware of it and do so out of kindness and respect towards others. I just don't think it's necessary to make it yet another rule.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> No I don't think it's too much to ask at all. And since it's usually the same group of people that tend to post those types of things because of their passion with rescue, I think they are aware of it or could be made aware of it and do so out of kindness and respect towards others. I just don't think it's necessary to make it yet another rule.



Yes, you have a great point.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Cosy said:


> I agree with you, Carina, but we usually post links to the website rather than the actual pics themselves. I know I don't post puppy pics for anyone. If you just link them to the website what's the diff? Same place the pups are, no? I saw a newbie post how great the breeder was of her new dog only to find out it was sold at 8 wks and it's not on the AMA list nor has anyone heard of it before. Now THAT'S something to worry about. I can assure you breeders can easily find buyers here without advertising. It happens all the time. Bonnie doesn't have a puppy page and yet she's inundated due to those of us who have her cute dogs.
> Do we not post our pics since it helps to sell her pups?


See I guess I do see a difference between directing someone to a breeders website where they have to navigate around and hopefully stop and look at the important stuff and posts that proclaim puppies available at Breeder X's website with a direct link there. It may seem like a small difference but to me it is about encouraging education and not the "store-front." 



princessre said:


> There could hardly be a more responsible and thoughtful pet owner than Sue, and even she benefited from someone pointing out a specific available puppy. The fact is, puppies become available and then sometimes get scooped up very quickly. It just takes one buyer. And if you have done alot of research, you are probably rather specific in what you are looking for; thus, you might very well miss your perfect match by just a few hours. So I do think it's very helpful to get an update on what a breeder might have available. That doesn't taken away from the amount of research someone has done, does it? Anyway, it doesn't seem that the rule is going to get changed, but I just don't agree that linking to Tyler's picture led to an impulse purchase on Sue's part because that's clearly not true. She became a very good Mommy to Tyler starting two years before she met him.


I agree that Sue is a wonderful Maltese owner. I feel fortunate to have met her in person in Atlanta and I hope some day to meet her boy.  

But as for your other point it makes me cringe. This is exactly why some people have issue with the posts about available dogs here on SM. I think the idea that you have to jump on a dog the moment you see him on a website, and especially that that is what SM should be used for is what the whole debate is about. I FIRMLY believe that people should be buying dogs from breeders, after researching breeders, after learning about breeder practices. That means that they should not be jumping in at the last minute like a puppy is up on EBAY for auction. By the time they are ready for a puppy they should have established relationships with a few breeders who hopefully display the courtesy to let them know when they have puppies available.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

We will just have to agree to disagree. But what I am talking about has nothing to do with impulse purchase, lack of research, or Ebay.


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## Purple-peep (May 14, 2009)

This all makes me sad to see everyone upset over the new rules

I for one, love to look at puppies and would have never found my Libby or our new baby to be, if it wasn't for the breeder section.:aktion033:


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

I think it's upsetting that there are always snide, mean, dramatic- and seemingly bitter remarks from members over very simple issues...and on a cute dog forum, no less. It really makes one wonder. People should lighten up or try to contain that behavior. jmo.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

iheartbisou said:


> I think it's upsetting that there are always snide, mean, dramatic- and seemingly bitter remarks from members over very simple issues...and on a cute dog forum, no less. It really makes one wonder. People should lighten up or try to contain that behavior. jmo.


 
Agreed! I thought that it was a rule too, that you were to respect one another.. maybe that's just a rule that I have come to apply to all situations...


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

To change the subject and return to what this thread was originally about "Rules of SM" :

I wonder how many people actually *read *the rules !


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Just throwing something out here. For the newbies, who ask for help, why not have a sticky, with a list of websites, to breeders who show. Those who show, and do not have a website, could be listed by name.

No need to be on the AMA list, as some are not, but still show for the betterment of the breed.

Newbie can easily check on breeders within his/her distance, read up on those in the area, and go out of the area if another breeder/pup grabs her heart. This would also eliminate the "one time" posters who say they are in a certain city, and looking for a pup. Well, that "same" breeder will no longer be mentioned, but will be on the list in that area, along with other breeders, for the poster to look at.

And, of course, while doing homework, continue to discuss with SM.

I'm thinking this would eliminate pushing the same group of breeders over and over again, as the newbies have now been given an avenue to research. 

If I were a newbie, this is the information I would appreciate. Not just the happy stories of their pups, as so many breeders are not mentioned. I would sure like to do my own homework, and take it from there.

For the record, I am against all these "Puppy Available" threads. Gosh, at one point, when I hit "view new posts", there must have been ten of these threads started. Seemed like SM turned into a broker for breeders who show. 

I think we can guide the newbies without all the unsolicited threads.

Not that my idea is any good, but I'm thinking, more ideas may pop out of your minds. 

Here's a good example of a Region Map:


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Snowbody said:


> As you could see by my starting my post with a sigh, I was just stating my first hand experience with this topic.I wasn't trying to change things or become confrontational. I was just stating the view from here, and with the sigh, that it worked for me. If the rules changed, the rules changed but I'm sad to see it for newcomers.
> I feel like I was unjustly bashed by you Mary (I've always respected you and in fact met you at Meet the Breeds where I was trying to learn more about dogs) by thinking that I was not diligently trying to find a pup (it took me 10 months!!! - hardly an impulse).I petsat a friend's Maltese over a two year period to know if it was right for me to get a pup at all esp,. a Maltese. I considered adoption but having raised a child with special needs for 19 years, I wanted to try to hedge my bets a little. I've had to home cook every meal for my family for 15 of those years, not out of choice, but out of keeping my child alive since one bite or sip of the wrong food could kill him. And I've worked for 33 years, full time and 20 of them as a business owner so that we could keep a roof over our heads. As Crystal said, I PM'd people and called them and tried to make the best decision.
> As for wondering how much time I have for Tyler now, I don't even think I have to dignify that with an answer. Most of you know how I feel about Tyler and how I take care of him.


Sue, I personally know how long and carefully you have researched before getting Tyler and I am truly happy that Tyler has you because you are one of the most sincere, generous, and kind person I have ever encountered. I know that you would do anything for Tyler and you are an admirable mommy (to skin and furkids!) Anyone who has contact with you can sense your humanity and warmth...to suggest that you getting Tyler was anything less than the most responsible pet ownership in effect is simply a misguided notion. Please do not take it to heart, and know that I am so proud to be Tyler's god mommy and your friend! ((HUGS))






princessre said:


> There could hardly be a more responsible and thoughtful pet owner than Sue, and even she benefited from someone pointing out a specific available puppy. The fact is, puppies become available and then sometimes get scooped up very quickly. It just takes one buyer. And if you have done alot of research, you are probably rather specific in what you are looking for; thus, you might very well miss your perfect match by just a few hours. So I do think it's very helpful to get an update on what a breeder might have available. That doesn't taken away from the amount of research someone has done, does it? Anyway, it doesn't seem that the rule is going to get changed, but I just don't agree that linking to Tyler's picture led to an impulse purchase on Sue's part because that's clearly not true. She became a very good Mommy to Tyler starting two years before she met him.


Well Said Sophia :aktion033:....Sue is NOT an impulse buyer...and that is from my personal knowledge.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Oh Sue, I didn't read the entire thread. Just stuck in my two-cents on the topic.

Good Lord, all I can say is you're flippin' awesome!!

Couldn't ask for a better, brighter Malt Mom!! :chili:

Oh, and LBB now wants to move in with you. B)

He seems to think I posted the map for him to find your house ~ :HistericalSmiley:

We love you Sue ~ Deb and Gang :grouphug:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

MalteseJane said:


> To change the subject and return to what this thread was originally about "Rules of SM" :
> 
> I wonder how many people actually *read *the rules !



I did, and I am sure than others have, too.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

3Maltmom said:


> Just throwing something out here. For the newbies, who ask for help, why not have a sticky, with a list of websites, to breeders who show. Those who show, and do not have a website, could be listed by name.
> 
> No need to be on the AMA list, as some are not, but still show for the betterment of the breed.
> 
> ...


I really feared adding my thoughts to this :blush:, since I don't post often on SM, and feel I don't really have a right . But  I love this idea's of Deb's and if it could work, I think it would be a wonderful tool for newbies.

Honestly, I didn't know which way I felt about posting about little babies available, I know I enjoy looking at their darling little faces :wub:. But after continuing learning and I will always be in that mode, I actually no longer posted available pups from breeders. My reason being is, I don't have any first hand experience with a reputable true breeder, and what if I fall upon a little cutie available and post it, without having any first hand knowledge, it may give the newbie the impression, that the breeder I am posting about is 100% a True Breeder, and the newbie, although still should do their research, may gain a false confidence, because I being a member for a little while posted it, when in fact, I don't have any first hand knowledge . That began to concern me.

I know if I were a newbie, and saw pups available from breeder xyz, it would defintely give me a wonderful feeling that I was going in the right direction. But you guys don't want someone like myself pointing them in that direction, when again, I don't really have any first hand knowledge.

Prior to getting my Mia and Leo :wub:, I bought a list of breeders (not from this site), and I am not saying the list did not contain True breeders, but I am telling you, at that time, I held onto that list like it was gold. I was deeply grieving over the loss of our Kara and I am sure my thought process was not very clear. 

I guess what I am saying is, prior to being on SM, I knew not a thing about the right ways to do research. I know for me, it was a very hard concept to grasp and it took me a great deal of time to get it. So much is involved.

That's why I love Deb's idea. It will expose the newbies, to a number of breeders, known and those wonderful breeders that may not be so well known, but still give the newbie a starting point and perhaps, in that same sticky, there could also be a tools given on what is important and how to do proper research (there may be something about research on here already).

I know this is a tall order, and can get into even deeper discussions as to who she be on the sticky and who should not, but just wanted to share my thoughts and reasonings behind them.

To be honest, I think Yung and team, did a heck of a job, with clearly defining what the rules are for SM in general, on all topics.

I know all of you will come to a happy medium and do what is best for not only newbies, but for anyone in search of the precious ones :wub:. In the end, it will ultimately also be what is best for the little darlings as well.

I wish you much luck and encouragement on this very difficult topic.

Christine


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

3Maltmom said:


> Just throwing something out here. For the newbies, who ask for help, why not have a sticky, with a list of websites, to breeders who show. Those who show, and do not have a website, could be listed by name.
> 
> No need to be on the AMA list, as some are not, but still show for the betterment of the breed.
> 
> ...



Deb my friend, you are brilliant! Yep, that's why you get paid the big bucks! :HistericalSmiley:

I truly LOVE this idea. I was not so much wanting to see just random posts of available puppies, but was wanting to see other truly wonderful breeders names become visible here on SM. For awhile, there were only just a few, and it seemed that is where everybody got their new babies from because those were the only visible names here on SM. I just want to bring awareness to some of the lesser known breeders, who may be breeding on a smaller scale and may only have puppies available only a few times a year. The ones that are able to give not only their puppies, but the fluffs in their breeding program the time, love and attention that ALL living creatures need and deserve. And some of these lesser known breeders have stunning Malts. :thumbsup: 

Carina, I agree with you that I don't like the feeling that someone needs to 'jump' on an available puppy for fear that it will be sold out from under them. I feel you need to develop a relationship with a few breeders who have the type of breeding program you feel is within your accepted standard of ethics, let them know what you are specifically looking for, and then waiting for them to contact you when that perfect one comes along for you and your existing family. And part of choosing a breeder that is within your accepted standard of ethics is personal contact, seeing their home and where they keep their babies and their adult Malts or having a trusted friend who has seen their set up, how many they have in their breeding program, how much socialization do they give their puppies, when they retire their mommy's and daddy's, what do they do with their retirees, and how do they ensure that all of the Malts in their program get the time and attention they need, and that they have a proper contract even if they are not in the US. Choosing a Maltese should be based on more then solely his/her looks. Sure it's ok to want a Maltese with the type of look you prefer, but there is much more to it then just his/her looks.


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

Deb, you had a wonderful idea!!! I hope Yung & his group would allow something like you are suggesting. 

To the list of show breeders, why not also list rescue groups. Both good choices for someone looking for a new family member.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

I just wanted to come on here to thank everyone for their concern over the issue in this thread. I wanted to let you know that Mary graciously apologized to me last night and I graciously accepted. We're fine. I think she's awesome and we discussed both our viewpoints and any misunderstandings. So let's close that chapter.
Deb you're amazing. A great idea and I like adding rescues as well. Hope Jung gives it some thought. I also got a much needed laugh out of LBB thinking it was a map to my house.:HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley: LBB, sweetie, that's a long way to go and you know you might well lose your way, since we know your mom will spin you around three times before she lets you go 'cause she always dissing you :HistericalSmiley: -- and then you'll end up back with her. :smrofl::smrofl: Tyler says if you do make it here, LBB, he'll be your seeing eye dog :heart:


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

It is a shame this website is changing so much from layout to rules. I have always found more bureaucracy to be stifling to the freedom of the human spirit....whether in our government or on a forum on the internet. If I wanted to belong to the "other" website...I would have not left it and came here... where I found a lovely casual and comfortable atmosphere. I am in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" camp. I loved Spoiled Maltese the way it WAS.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

I think it's important to not always read just what you perceive to be the 'face' of something. Sometimes changes happen for reasons that may not always be apparent to you... I have often wondered what happened behind the scenes with the breeders and others to whom links are pointing. They have very strict ideas of how they want their programs to be handled/talked about/etc...or maybe others are writing because they are not happy that some breeders are talked about again and again (because, perhaps, they produce more litters). Heck, I got personally threatened with being sued for something that wasn't even there...can you imagine, in today's highly litigious environment, what must go on behind the scenes? Try to keep all this in mind before passing to heavy a judgment on changes...one never knows what spurs them on. And really, it's the PEOPLE who participate that make a forum a nice place to be, if you ask me 

Disclaimer: "You" does not refer to Anyone In Particular but is generic


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

I do have to say that I enjoyed seeing puppy photos from some of the show breeders...I would always click and go look. These threads (as well as members posting who they got their dogs from) has helped me to learn the names of many breeders/exhibitors that I otherwise might not have heard of. I do have a few breeders in mind who I love the look of their dogs...these are the breeders I will check with when I'm ready to purchase a puppy. I will of course talk to the breeder about their breeding practices before I commit to any cute puppy I see. 

However, I don't really like the idea of having a list of show breeders available. I think it could open up arguments to who is and isn't a an actual exhibitor. Plus, not all exhibitors are reputable breeders. What about a backyard breeder who has gotten their hands on a finished champion? Or a backyard breeder who has one of their dogs in the show ring..but that dog isn't actually show quality and deserving of being in the ring? You can put any AKC registered dog into a dog show...but is that dog show worthy? See what I mean? There are plenty of BYBs out there that want to appear to be "show breeders". Plus, while I'm sure most of us agree on basic things on what makes a breeder reputable (health screening, showing, breeding show quality dogs, etc)..there are minor things that people may or may not agree on. Such as, you may be a person who only wants to purchase from a breeder with a small program (say no more than 10 dogs)..whereas someone else might be fine with a breeder having 20 dogs. Neither number is "wrong"...some people just have a different idea of what they want in their breeder. Hope that makes sense.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

myfairlacy said:


> I do have to say that I enjoyed seeing puppy photos from some of the show breeders...I would always click and go look. These threads (as well as members posting who they got their dogs from) has helped me to learn the names of many breeders/exhibitors that I otherwise might not have heard of. I do have a few breeders in mind who I love the look of their dogs...these are the breeders I will check with when I'm ready to purchase a puppy. I will of course talk to the breeder about their breeding practices before I commit to any cute puppy I see.
> 
> However, I don't really like the idea of having a list of show breeders available. I think it could open up arguments to who is and isn't a an actual exhibitor. Plus, not all exhibitors are reputable breeders. What about a backyard breeder who has gotten their hands on a finished champion? Or a backyard breeder who has one of their dogs in the show ring..but that dog isn't actually show quality and deserving of being in the ring? You can put any AKC registered dog into a dog show...but is that dog show worthy? See what I mean? There are plenty of BYBs out there that want to appear to be "show breeders". Plus, while I'm sure most of us agree on basic things on what makes a breeder reputable (health screening, showing, breeding show quality dogs, etc)..there are minor things that people may or may not agree on. Such as, you may be a person who only wants to purchase from a breeder with a small program (say no more than 10 dogs)..whereas someone else might be fine with a breeder having 20 dogs. Neither number is "wrong"...some people just have a different idea of what they want in their breeder. Hope that makes sense.


Great points, Michele. If you recall, Tina complied a list of US show breeders a few months ago and some of the same concerns were mentioned when it was suggested it be pinned. I know there were a few breeders who people didn't think should be on the list and a few that were not that some people thought should be. Also, concerns that a list of breeders might imply that they were endorsed or recommended by SM were raised. Yung said the list would not be pinned. 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/104074-updated-usa-maltese-breeders-new-link.html


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

People have differing opinions on show breeders. Much as I hate to say it, I don't think it would work to list breeders. I think we should just keep it the way it is and not change anything. There are certain breeders that many think are "top breeders," and there WILL be disagreements about the smaller, less well-known breeders, I am sure. 

If a member (not a breeder) wishes to alert the community to available puppies, I see nothing wrong with that. 

Is it selling? Well, then most everything we discuss is some form of selling. Every time we talk about harnesses, food, supplements, etc., someone is "selling" their favorite things, according to SM. 

I don't look at it that way. I guess I'm not cynical in this matter, lol. 

Somehow I really don't think that members are trying to help breeders sell puppies when they post about availability. I think that maybe they just want to help others, or share their admiration of cute pups. JMO.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Nikki's Mom said:


> People have differing opinions on show breeders. Much as I hate to say it, I don't think it would work to list breeders. I think we should just keep it the way it is and not change anything. There are certain breeders that many think are "top breeders," and there WILL be disagreements about the smaller, less well-known breeders, I am sure.
> 
> If a member (not a breeder) wishes to alert the community to available puppies, I see nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


Agreed! :aktion033:


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm going to have to agree as well... I never thought of it as selling and never felt pressured to purchase a puppy right then and there. I'm still waiting for my little one, and have always loved seeing what babies were available from who.. I guess that's going to be a pleasure of the past..


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

Nikki's Mom said:


> People have differing opinions on show breeders. Much as I hate to say it, I don't think it would work to list breeders. I think we should just keep it the way it is and not change anything. There are certain breeders that many think are "top breeders," and there WILL be disagreements about the smaller, less well-known breeders, I am sure.
> 
> If a member (not a breeder) wishes to alert the community to available puppies, I see nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think the ban on posting "puppies found" is silly. I love "window shopping" and looking at who has what pups where. It is absurd to think that just because someone starts a thread sharing a web site with puppies available that they are advertising. 

We are adults, it is our personal responsibility to check into a breeder before making a purchase. We don't need site administrators protecting us from ourselves. 

I never would have found my Sophie had someone not posted the Ta-Jon site. 

I am very disappointed to see the new administrators becoming heavy handed and making decisions like this for our community. Up to this point I've supported the change and encouraged others to do the same. But it does seem as if we are headed down the path that leads to "that other" forum.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Snowbody said:


> I just wanted to come on here to thank everyone for their concern over the issue in this thread. I wanted to let you know that Mary graciously apologized to me last night and I graciously accepted. We're fine. I think she's awesome and we discussed both our viewpoints and any misunderstandings. So let's close that chapter.
> Deb you're amazing. A great idea and I like adding rescues as well. Hope Jung gives it some thought. I also got a much needed laugh out of LBB thinking it was a map to my house.:HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley: LBB, sweetie, that's a long way to go and you know you might well lose your way, since we know your mom will spin you around three times before she lets you go 'cause she always dissing you :HistericalSmiley: -- and then you'll end up back with her. :smrofl::smrofl: Tyler says if you do make it here, LBB, he'll be your seeing eye dog :heart:


I knew this would happen because you are both incredible women. Oh, you, too, Deb. I love you all.
xoxoxoxoxoxo


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

puppymom said:


> I agree. I think the ban on posting "puppies found" is silly. I love "window shopping" and looking at who has what pups where. It is absurd to think that just because someone starts a thread sharing a web site with puppies available that they are advertising.
> 
> We are adults, it is our personal responsibility to check into a breeder before making a purchase. We don't need site administrators protecting us from ourselves.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with what you are saying. I'd waited for months for a dog from one breeder, and someone sent me a link of puppies which had been seen on SM through one of the breeder websites. I left 2 days later to take a look at the puppies. I think this new rule just stinks, to be very blunt. Surely they will reconsider. It makes absolutely NO sense to me at all.


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## EmmasMommy (Jun 2, 2008)

Boy am I glad I got all 4 of my girls before they made this new breeder rule.........


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I don't think it is fair to blame Yung and the administrators for that new rule. It came because people started being concerned after that post about stud service. I don't care one way or another. But to change things just because we had a ONE TIME EVENT when somebody asked for stud service, just seems silly to me. When somebody comes here with a question like this, the best thing to do is ignore it.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Sounds like the majority of the people here on SM feel the same way, that this was an unnecessary rule and has lessened SM more then improved it. Sure wish a bunch of you had been this vocal in the fateful thread that started it all with the 'new rule suggestion'.  Truthfully, the number of posts recently generated about puppies did need to be addressed. I'm not sure if there was a reason behind that or not. I have a feeling there was, and probably a very good one too. But when using a public forum to make a point can backfire and be harmful to the forum. I think that issue could have been dealt with privately. 


That being said, it is now a rule and I don't think it will change. We need to be respectful of the rule and admin. But I do feel we are heading down a slippery slope here and am beginning to wonder why so many new rule suggestions are being put out there. Please be aware of what could happen here on SM. I feel very protective of SM and do want the admin. to do things to keep SM safe from a legal standpoint. But I don't want it to become like some of the other forums so many left. I hope admin begins to develop a relationship with some members who are in good standing that have been here for a very very long time, have never left for whatever reason, for their feedback before taking a posted suggestion like this and implementing it. I had really hoped that Joe might have said something publicly about this. But perhaps the transition period is over and Joe won't be getting involved in this type of situation any longer. And who knows, maybe Joe was asked for his opinion on this and his recommendation was to implement the rule. It is hard to remember that when we are this side of admin, we don't know the whole story, which could actually change our point of view.

I guess I also hope that Admin does not implement any suggested change without talking to a few long time SM'rs in good standing first as well. Newbies and those with less accumulated years here on SM of course should be able to make suggestions and feel ownership to this forum. But those who have been here for a long time, (even longer then me), can probably share experiences as to why certain suggestions may or may not be a good idea.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

Snowbody said:


> Sigh :mellow: -- the reason I have my beloved Tyler is because one of our members posted the link to Tyler's photo in his breeder's site. She was applying no pressure but "look at this cutie who's a really good price." I had done research, PM'd members, called them on the phone, checked the AMA list, breeders in and out of my area and many other avenues but I couldn't constantly keep checking the websites of the half dozen or so breeders I was interested in. I happen to work for a living So that thread helped me so much and I can't imagine my life without my special boy. Remember, I was a newbie then. Just sayin' it was really a service to me.


I was the one who posted the thread about Chrisman having a pup available at a reasonable price point. I was be-bopping around the net that night and looked in on their site. Since I'm here in Vegas, and fluffless, I certainly didn't/don't have ANY intimate relationship with Chrisman. I was just nosing around. I posted it just in case someone was interested, and looking for a nice pup. It was up to whomever to make contact with the breeder whom ever they my be. In this case Chrisman. I never thought I was "selling" anyone's pups. I thought it was just a "look what I found" service announcement for ANYONE wanting a well bred pup. I am very happy you have him Sue, and everyone can watch him grow up on SM. 

I hate to think the occasional posting of a cutie pie pup from a well known show breeder is going to become fodder for administrative sanctions. However, the new regime will do what they want no matter how we protest - pro or con on the topic. It's just a shame that some idiot came here looking for stud service, and as a result has put a gag on everyone else who cruises breeder sites "window shopping" and posts an occasional pup availability. If I wanted to be silenced, and sanitized, I would still be on Maltese Only...Oh, wait a minute, I was silenced and banned from there for mentioning Wal-Mart. That's when I found SM! :HistericalSmiley:


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Ladysmom said:


> Great points, Michele. If you recall, Tina complied a list of US show breeders a few months ago and some of the same concerns were mentioned when it was suggested it be pinned. I know there were a few breeders who people didn't think should be on the list and a few that were not that some people thought should be. Also, concerns that a list of breeders might imply that they were endorsed or recommended by SM were raised. Yung said the list would not be pinned.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/104074-updated-usa-maltese-breeders-new-link.html


LOL ~ I guess my idea wasn't original :HistericalSmiley:

Hey, not all is lost. I LOVE Tina's work. Are you kidding, I don't need SM. I will simply copy/paste her link for the newbies to do some research.
Thanks for all your hard work, Tina ~ :chili:

Thanks for the link, Marj. I didn't see that one. It's perfect. B)

But another question. Are breeders paying to be in this section:







**Note: We are only accepting Maltese breeders who are currently on the breeder list at the American Maltese Association website OR who have been referred as a reputable breeder by an active member here at SpoiledMaltese.com. Acceptance to the breeders list is in sole discretion of the owners of SpoiledMaltese.com. ANY listing here is not a guarantee of the health or quality of the listed breeders, please use all available means of research before purchasing a puppy.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

3Maltmom said:


> LOL ~ I guess my idea wasn't original :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> Hey, not all is lost. I LOVE Tina's work. Are you kidding, I don't need SM. I will simply copy/paste her link for the newbies to do some research.
> Thanks for all your hard work, Tina ~ :chili:
> ...


Where did you find that quote, Deb? I'm fairly certain Yung wouldn't want SM's name used in connection with the list. It implies, as you suggest, that some sort of endorsement and/or fee is involved.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Ladysmom said:


> *Where did you find that quote, Deb?* I'm fairly certain Yung wouldn't want SM's name used in connection with the list. It implies, as you suggest, that some sort of endorsement and/or fee is involved.


Go to SM's Home Page, to the left is Site Navigator, scroll down to Breeders. 

I'm wondering if the breeders pay to be on that list. If not, then we
could update that, with Tina's list, along with websites.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Whoa! I never knew that was there! 

So then this forum *has* a breeder's listing? 

Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums - Breeders

If so, then we can recommend names to that list?


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

It's been there ever since I can remember. There used to me more listed then there is now. So yet another reason why I don't get the new rule.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Whoa! I never knew that was there!
> 
> So then this forum *has* a breeder's listing?
> 
> ...


I never saw that either and I've been a member for six years!

It looks like breeders have to apply to be on the list and approved. I wonder what the criteria is? If a fee is involved as Deb suggested?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I would think if a fee were involved it would state that before having someone fill an app.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> It's been there ever since I can remember. There used to me more listed then there is now. So yet another reason why I don't get the new rule.


Yup, it's been there. If kept updated, I think it would be a wonderful avenue for newbies to search, and educate themselves. Then come to us with questions. 

Crystal, as far as I know, this rule is not new. It was set in place to eliminate the constant threads of "available pups", which were indeed started by first-time posters, for the same handful of breeders. It was obvious advertising. This happens every now, and again. But a huge problem a few years ago. 

I am wanting to help the "real" puppy searchers, without giving an avenue to the breeders who have too many pups, and not enough apps. 

It's very important we lead the newbies in the right direction. I would like to direct them to a place they can do research, and get to know ALL the breeders, and options.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

When I first came onto this site, I was thrilled that they had a breeder listing.. I was disappointed though. It's a rather short list!  I found other possible breeders through the threads in the breeder forum section. We should definitely work on bulking the breeder list up!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> It's been there ever since I can remember. There used to me more listed then there is now. So yet another reason why I don't get the new rule.


I get the difference, Crystal. Under the new rules we are still allowed to post a link to a breeder's website or give their name if a newbie asks about breeders in their area.

The new rule only prohibits threads about specific puppies available from breeders as Yung said that they are advertising, specifically word-of-mouth advertising, under basic marketing principles.

I think this list must not be very well known or we'd have more breeders applying to be on it, though. Of course, it duplicates the the AMA list which we link to all the time so maybe it's not worth the bother?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Miss_Annie said:


> When I first came onto this site, I was thrilled that they had a breeder listing.. I was disappointed though. It's a rather short list!  I found other possible breeders through the threads in the breeder forum section. We should definitely work on bulking the breeder list up!


The AMA has a breeder referral list by state. We post links to that a lot.

American Maltese Association Breeder Referral


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes, but not all reputable breeders are members of the AMA.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Ladysmom said:


> The AMA has a breeder referral list by state. We post links to that a lot.
> 
> American Maltese Association Breeder Referral


The only problem I have with referring newbies to this link is, it only lists email addresses, not the websites. I would like to make it easier for research. Also, there are breeders not listed on that site, as they are not AMA members, yet show, and abide by the rules.

Just a thought, as I would like to see a fair playing field.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

3Maltmom said:


> Also, there are breeders not listed on that site, as they are not AMA members, yet show, and abide by the rules.


And there are AMA breeders who are active exhibitors/breeders who are not on or no longer on that list, either because they do not meet the new requirements or because they chose not to pay the new increased fee. Being a member of AMA does not automatically put one one the breeder referral list. It is a paid for service offered to AMA members that they choose to participate in or not.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

Yea, the first time I went to the AMA website, I was rather confused... lol I learned that it was easiest to have two windows up and to google the breeder and see if they had a website, but it wasn't that convenient...


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

MaryH said:


> And there are AMA breeders who are active exhibitors/breeders who are not on or no longer on that list, either because they do not meet the new requirements or because they chose not to pay the new increased fee.


Exactly :thumbsup:

So that list does not say much. In other words, just because a breeder paid the fee, does not make them ethical.
Also, because you don't belong, you are deemed "unethical"?

I have a quick question. How do they "police" this?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

3Maltmom said:


> Exactly :thumbsup:
> 
> So that list does not say much. In other words, just because a breeder paid the fee, does not make them ethical.
> Also, because you don't belong, you are deemed "unethical"?
> ...


AMA is not a "policing" organization and does not have authority or jurisdiction to be one. All AMA members must sign a Code of Ethics. Should it be proven that an AMA member is not living up to the Code of Ethics then action could be taken from suspension up to and including expulsion.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

MaryH said:


> AMA is not a "policing" organization and does not have authority or jurisdiction to be one. All AMA members must sign a Code of Ethics. Should it be proven that an AMA member is not living up to the Code of Ethics then action could be taken from suspension up to and including expulsion.


Thank you Mary. That's what I thought. 

My line of work has many associations. Just pay the fee, and this allows you to slap that on your website. Looks good, but is actually worthless.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I thought all applications for memberships are sponsored by at least two members and then voted on by the membership or at least the board, no? Has this changed? Isn't the AMA breeders list accumulated from the membership? Deb, you're confusing me! LOL


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

MalteseJane said:


> I don't think it is fair to blame Yung and the administrators for that new rule. It came because people started being concerned after that post about stud service. I don't care one way or another. But to change things just because we had a ONE TIME EVENT when somebody asked for stud service, just seems silly to me. When somebody comes here with a question like this, the best thing to do is ignore it.


If it's not Yung and the new Administrators making the rules who is? I assume that since they (he?) are the new owners of the forum then they (he?) are respnsible (I prefer that to blame) for the new rules. We certainly didn't make that rule.

The bottom line is that the administrator (who ever he/she is) is putting in place a new rule that will decrease the enjoyment that many of us derive from the forum. Certainly their right as owners but what comes next?


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Sounds like the majority of the people here on SM feel the same way, that this was an unnecessary rule and has lessened SM more then improved it. Sure wish a bunch of you had been this vocal in the fateful thread that started it all with the 'new rule suggestion'.  Truthfully, the number of posts recently generated about puppies did need to be addressed. I'm not sure if there was a reason behind that or not. I have a feeling there was, and probably a very good one too. But when using a public forum to make a point can backfire and be harmful to the forum. I think that issue could have been dealt with privately.
> 
> .


I did notice a few months back that there was suddenly a dramatic increase in the number of posting about breeders but many were from newer, younger members who were perhaps just a bit over zealous in their desire to share their "finds". But I think those posts would have eventually slowed without haveing to "rule it" away.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Cosy said:


> I thought all applications for memberships are sponsored by at least two members and then voted on by the membership or at least the board, no? Has this changed? Isn't the AMA breeders list accumulated from the membership? *Deb, you're confusing me!* LOL


Brit ~ LMAO :HistericalSmiley: 

I'm confusing myself :blink:

This is why I'm asking questions. Good Lord, no wonder LBB gives me the evil "eye" ~ :rofl:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

puppymom said:


> If it's not Yung and the new Administrators making the rules who is? I assume that since they (he?) are the new owners of the forum then they (he?) are respnsible (I prefer that to blame) for the new rules. We certainly didn't make that rule.
> 
> The bottom line is that the administrator (who ever he/she is) is putting in place a new rule that will decrease the enjoyment that many of us derive from the forum. Certainly their right as owners but what comes next?


It was a member here who made the suggestion for a new rule about no soliciting of sires/dams after either an ignorant (using the literal definition, look it up in the dictionary, not the derogatory meaning) person or a person simply wanting to stir up trouble posted such a thread. It then snowballed into this. That is the thread that I had wished people would have been more vocal on. There has always been the rule of no direct puppy sales here on SM, but then we got into the 'legal-ese' of things and what can and can't be construed as threads advertising puppies for sale. *sigh*

I simply wanted a venue to give some wonderful, smaller, less known reputable and ethical breeders a chance to be mentioned instead of the few that always are.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Cosy said:


> I thought all applications for memberships are sponsored by at least two members and then voted on by the membership or at least the board, no? Has this changed? Isn't the AMA breeders list accumulated from the membership? Deb, you're confusing me! LOL


All applicants must be sponsored by two members and voted on by the Board. There has been no change to the application process. The Breeder Referral List is not a complete list of all AMA breeder/members, it is a list of those members who meet the requirements for being listed and pay the fee for being listed.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Ladysmom said:


> The AMA has a breeder referral list by state. We post links to that a lot.
> 
> American Maltese Association Breeder Referral





3Maltmom said:


> The only problem I have with referring newbies to this link is, it only lists email addresses, not the websites. I would like to make it easier for research. Also, there are breeders not listed on that site, as they are not AMA members, yet show, and abide by the rules.
> 
> Just a thought, as I would like to see a fair playing field.


I guess my post was confusing. :smstarz:

What I meant to say was that the SM list now only has AMA members, so it's no better a resource than posting a direct link to the AMA list...worse actually, because it's so limited.

It would be nice if some of the smaller, less well known breeders were on the SM list. Not completely sure of the process, though. It looks like they have to apply and have at least one active SM member have positive first hand experience with them to use as a reference?


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

I have a question: Who are the Administrators? LOL Aside from Yung and Joe?
xoxoxoxoxo


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

There is a new AMA rule that breeders must be an AMA member for 2 years before being eligible for inclusion on the breeder list. Carina and I are both AMA members but are not on the list (obviously, LOL)


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

bellaratamaltese said:


> There is a new AMA rule that breeders must be an AMA member for 2 years before being eligible for inclusion on the breeder list. Carina and I are both AMA members but are not on the list (obviously, LOL)


Yep, that's my point. Along with those who decide not to join, yet are very respectable breeders, who do not want to, either pay the fee, nor deal with the politics. 

I want a fair list. Not an AMA list.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

3Maltmom said:


> Yep, that's my point. Along with those who decide not to join, yet are very respectable breeders, who do not want to, either pay the fee, nor deal with the politics.
> 
> I want a fair list. Not an AMA list.


 
Deb, that's really a fair rule. It ensures that the breeder (new) is going to stay with it and not just in it to have pups. I like that rule.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Cosy said:


> Deb, that's really a fair rule. It ensures that the breeder (new) is going to stay with it and not just in it to have pups. I like that rule.


I hear what you're saying, Brit. I have been on the fence for years.

I do not understand why paying a fee ensures a "Reputable Breeder".

So if a breeder puts in their two years, they can live a life of being "Reputable", as long as they pay their dues?


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Cosy said:


> Deb, that's really a fair rule. It ensures that the breeder (new) is going to stay with it and not just in it to have pups. I like that rule.


I don't have a problem with that rule! I think it's fair and makes sure the breeder is truly serious and weeds out potential problems.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Whoa! I never knew that was there!
> 
> So then this forum *has* a breeder's listing?
> 
> ...


That list has been there since I've been a member. I know of several breeders who have applied to be on the list, but will not allow them to be on there. Then they added the "must be on AMA list". I don't think it costs to be on the list. No one can agree on "who" they consider to be "reputable" breeder and who isn't. With my list I was choosing the best of the breeders I could find. It is just the beginning, I am still going over web sites and meeting breeders.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

bellaratamaltese said:


> I don't have a problem with that rule! I think it's fair and makes sure the breeder is truly serious and weeds out potential problems.


My question is, "Why does the 2-year rule make a breeder serious"??

Are there not potential problems after two years? I can name a few.

To be honest, I don't care about who's who on the AMA list, nor if their rule is fair. That's THEIR rules. I would like to see a list we can refer newbies to, without all the hooplah.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

It doesn't but it might! Hahah! I don't see why Tina's list would be one to trust over the AMA since she is doing the listing. No offense, Tina, but you are just one person. The AMA is a group of breeder/exhibitors. I'm just sayin...


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

Cosy said:


> It doesn't but it might! Hahah! I don't see why Tina's list would be one to trust over the AMA since she is doing the listing. No offense, Tina, but you are just one person. The AMA is a group of breeder/exhibitors. I'm just sayin...


 I'm going to write my list, and it's going to be the best list!:chili::chili::chili:


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Cosy said:


> It doesn't but it might! Hahah! I don't see why Tina's list would be one to trust over the AMA since she is doing the listing. No offense, Tina, but you are just one person. The AMA is a group of breeder/exhibitors. I'm just sayin...


I am not sure how to take that. LOL I am just the gate keeper. I have been taking in concerns and information people have been giving me. Some breeder's have opted out. Their choice.

The AMA isn't all a membership of breeder's and exhibitors. You can be a member of the AMA. Apply. All of you on here that is just interested in Maltese can be members of the AMA. You don't even have to have a Maltese to be a member. You just need two sponsors. 


Membership to the AMA​Individual membership is open to serious fanciers who have demonstrated a sincere interest in the American Maltese Association, are in good standing with the American Kennel Club, endorse the objects of the American Maltese Association, agree to abide by the Constitution and By-Laws and Code of Ethics of the American Maltese Association and the rules of the American Kennel Club and are 18 years of age or older. 
Applicants must be sponsored by two members of the American Maltese Association who have been in good standing with the Club for at least two years. Additionally, sponsors must meet the requirements listed on the Sponsor Endorsement sheet. 
Membership is for those people who will make every effort to attend the annual membership meeting and exercise their privilege to vote on all issues. They will also receive the Club's newsletter known as THE MALTESE RX.
The membership process can be a long process your patience is appreciated.​ 
Membership Application 
http://www.americanmaltese.org/American%20Maltese%20Association%20Application.pdf​


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## plenty pets 20 (Jul 8, 2006)

Guess I will just throw my experience in to this mix. Not only do you need two sponsors but you have to have a home visit done just like we do for a rescue adoption. I also sent a letter from my vet as a referrral. I only had "rescue" as my love and was excepted as a member of AMA. I do believe that the AMA association as a whole is working toward including all aspects of a Maltese dog, from showing , obedience, agility, rally and rescue. They are also working on dealing with the health issues that plague the Maltese, as a breed. Working to be a well rounded group for all to participate in. 
I know there are reputable breeders that are not members of the AMA. You all just need to do your own research on any breeder and go and see the facility and check , check , check to be sure you are not supporting a puppymill.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

plenty pets 20 said:


> Guess I will just throw my experience in to this mix. Not only do you need two sponsors but you have to have a home visit done just like we do for a rescue adoption. I also sent a letter from my vet as a referrral. I only had "rescue" as my love and was excepted as a member of AMA. I do believe that the AMA association as a whole is working toward including all aspects of a Maltese dog, from showing , obedience, agility, rally and rescue. They are also working on dealing with the health issues that plague the Maltese, as a breed. Working to be a well rounded group for all to participate in.
> I know there are reputable breeders that are not members of the AMA. *You all just need to do your own research on any breeder and go and see the facility and check , check , check to be sure you are not supporting a puppymill*.


I couldn't agree more :thumbsup:


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

3Maltmom said:


> I couldn't agree more


Puttin my thumb in the air too. :thumbsup:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

plenty pets 20 said:


> Guess I will just throw my experience in to this mix. Not only do you need two sponsors but you have to have a home visit done just like we do for a rescue adoption. I also sent a letter from my vet as a referrral. I only had "rescue" as my love and was excepted as a member of AMA. I do believe that the AMA association as a whole is working toward including all aspects of a Maltese dog, from showing , obedience, agility, rally and rescue. They are also working on dealing with the health issues that plague the Maltese, as a breed. Working to be a well rounded group for all to participate in.
> 
> I* know there are reputable breeders that are not members of the AMA. You all just need to do your own research on any breeder and go and see the facility and check , check , check to be sure you are not supporting a puppymill.*


:thumbsup: Yup, no list can ever replace doing your "due diligence" in finding a breeder.

A very wise show breeder on another forum I belong to says, "Buy your breeder first."


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## nekkidfish (Aug 25, 2009)

I may be a day late and a dollar short here, but I did not see Sarah Stangeland in your list (AMA member), and I highly recommend her. I have been to her home on several occasions, met the moms and dads, and that's where I got Poppy.

HUGz! Jules


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

nekkidfish said:


> I may be a day late and a dollar short here, but I did not see Sarah Stangeland in your list (AMA member), and I highly recommend her. I have been to her home on several occasions, met the moms and dads, and that's where I got Poppy.
> 
> HUGz! Jules


I talked to Sarah about being on the list. She felt she wanted to wait until she could put together a web site before she was added. I am still going to post her e-mail on there. Enjoyed visiting with her. She gave me some breeder's web sites that I didn't know about. 



Experience Magic
HOME


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## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Morning everyone,

Thanks for all your feedback on the rules. It's quite clear that of the rules we posted, the one concerning the "no posting available puppies for sale threads" has stirred quite a lot of reaction. This is understandable and I appreciate the candid feedback that you are providing in a respectful manner. The thing about rules is that they are changeable and for me, I will be the first one to go back to the drawing boards if needed. It seems in this particular instance, we might have to do that with just this particular rule. I would like to invite your suggestions on this particular one -- either you can post it here or send it to me in private. Let me know please. Thanks.

Yung


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Yung, could we perhaps ask for an unbiased volunteer person (or two) who might want to post info on available puppies? (no I am not volunteering myself...lol) It seems that there are some people who really enjoy researching breeders websites and posting info on available puppies. This way it wouldn't be perceived as selling or "helping" only a particular breeder. 

I really hope we can allow for pix of available puppies. I think that we all love to see puppy pix, and we all curious as to what types of puppies breeders have - even if we aren't in the market for one.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

admin said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> Thanks for all your feedback on the rules. It's quite clear that of the rules we posted, the one concerning the "no posting available puppies for sale threads" has stirred quite a lot of reaction. This is understandable and I appreciate the candid feedback that you are providing in a respectful manner. The thing about rules is that they are changeable and for me, I will be the first one to go back to the drawing boards if needed. It seems in this particular instance, we might have to do that with just this particular rule. I would like to invite your suggestions on this particular one -- either you can post it here or send it to me in private. Let me know please. Thanks.
> 
> Yung


:chili::aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::chili:

This is great news that Yung is willing to reconsider the rule!!


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Could we possibly just go back to the old way of all of us posting puppy pictures from breeders? 

Is that a possibility, or are there specific things we want to try to avoid while bringing back the puppy pic?

Please since we all would miss the puppy pictures, let's make suggestions while Yung is considering changing the rule back! :aktion033:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

We need a pinned thread for that, perhaps?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Yung, actually, we mostly just posted links to their puppy page on their site. We also do that for rescues too.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

*Yung Rocks!!*



admin said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> Thanks for all your feedback on the rules. It's quite clear that of the rules we posted, the one concerning the "no posting available puppies for sale threads" has stirred quite a lot of reaction. This is understandable and I appreciate the candid feedback that you are providing in a respectful manner. The thing about rules is that they are changeable and for me, I will be the first one to go back to the drawing boards if needed. It seems in this particular instance, we might have to do that with just this particular rule. I would like to invite your suggestions on this particular one -- either you can post it here or send it to me in private. Let me know please. Thanks.
> 
> Yung


:chili::dothewave::cheer::forgive me:

My two cents:

We could have one person, like we have for rescues, be in charge of posting them. We could PM the link, and they could look at it for approval and post it. 

Maybe we should have a seperate area for them to be posted other than the breeders section.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Yung, could we perhaps ask for an unbiased volunteer person (or two) who might want to post info on available puppies? (no I am not volunteering myself...lol) It seems that there are some people who really enjoy researching breeders websites and posting info on available puppies. This way it wouldn't be perceived as selling or "helping" only a particular breeder.
> 
> I really hope we can allow for pix of available puppies. I think that we all love to see puppy pix, and we all curious as to what types of puppies breeders have - even if we aren't in the market for one.


:chili::aktion033: Thought I pop in to see where this thread was going......I'm liking it......:thumbsup:


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I thought anyone could post pictures or links to a available rescues? I think we should have the same thing again for available puppies if that is acceptable to Yung and members.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

Oh, I thought we had to have the approved before they were posted... lol but you understood what I meant!  Both of them should be dealt with in the same manner.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

It's good to know the rules aren't written in stone, and are subject to admendment. :aktion033:

Again, after a puppy availability thread is posted, it's up to the person interested to make contact. I really don't consider a "news bullitin" a sales ad


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

The issue was deliberated, with strong opinions on both sides, with all members being given the opportunity to express their opinions and wishes.

I still feel as though the posting of puppies avaliable on breeders pages is advertising for that breeder and since this website has a strict policy about no sale of animals, I feel this violates this rule as the only purpose for advertising is to encourage sale. Example of a recent post: "I'm surprised that ___________ is still available! ______'s absolutely adorable, and what a steal."

Its a fine line a person walks when they link posts from breeders websites to avaliable puppies. No matter how many times we tell a newbie to do their research, we can't assume it is done. They may jump on these posts and then, if something goes wrong, come after the person who posted the link and SM. I don't want to see SM caught in this type of situation.

Also, there are many different ideas about what consitututes a responsible and appropriate breeder. I have seen people on this site differ about certain breeders. If we are posting links to breeder's puppy pages a newbie is likely to believe that this breeder is approved or is a responsible breeder. I don't feel that this forum should be making these decisions for others. Second, what about the rule concerning posting only first hand information about breeders. What if I posted a link to a breeder's puppies - one I didn't purchase a puppy from? Do I really have first hand information. What if I talked to the breeder once and decided they didnt have what I wanted - is that enough first hand information for me to be able to post about their puppies? It seems like a giant slipperly slope to me!

If Yung had decided to permit this all to happen after the first big debate I would have respectfully honored the new rule, so it is upsetting to me that those who do not support the decision can't honor it but feel compelled to continue t attempt to change it - without even giving it a chance.

That's just my four cents.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

princessre said:


> I thought anyone could post pictures or links to a available rescues? I think we should have the same thing again for available puppies if that is acceptable to Yung and members.


:thumbsup:


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm for posting links over just the pics. I want people to see who the breeder is (or the rescue) as well as the dog's appearance. I'm not really certain it's ethical to paste a pic of someone else's anyway.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

I agree with what Erin is saying. What if someone got a puppy from a byb and then put that person's name up with available new pups pictures. We do have some members that are byb's with unknown lines.
I love to see puppies from reputable breeders but then who ever makes that post is responsible to the newbie if they in fact get a sick puppy.
We have great breeders on here and their puppies are healthy and I would buy one in a heart-beat but how do we discriminate then and let other not so know ones advertise?
I knew of a well known breeder whom I thought had very healthy puppies as she still advertises how healthy and how she strives to get healthy puppies. I know for a fact, first hand info, she sells sick puppies. What if she has someone come on here and show her available puppies.....can I post as to what a horrible person she is? Let the fight begin?

I think we need to go over Tina's list and come to a decision as to which breeders are on there and post the list.
As far as the Breeder List that has always been on SM, Bob and I asked to have OliveTree Maltese on there and never even got a response. Jennifer is a show/breeder with great pups and we, as longstanding members, asked to have her listed. Thank you Tina for putting it on yours
There are many great breeders that are not on the AMA list or do not have web sites.
JMO so please lets talk about these problems and how to handle if they should arise.







Hunter's Mom said:


> The issue was deliberated, with strong opinions on both sides, with all members being given the opportunity to express their opinions and wishes.
> 
> I still feel as though the posting of puppies avaliable on breeders pages is advertising for that breeder and since this website has a strict policy about no sale of animals, I feel this violates this rule as the only purpose for advertising is to encourage sale. Example of a recent post: "I'm surprised that ___________ is still available! ______'s absolutely adorable, and what a steal."
> 
> ...


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Hunter's Mom said:


> The issue was deliberated, with strong opinions on both sides, with all members being given the opportunity to express their opinions and wishes.
> 
> I still feel as though the posting of puppies avaliable on breeders pages is advertising for that breeder and since this website has a strict policy about no sale of animals, I feel this violates this rule as the only purpose for advertising is to encourage sale. Example of a recent post: "I'm surprised that ___________ is still available! ______'s absolutely adorable, and what a steal."
> 
> ...


I appreciate you and your insights, Erin.

With all due respect, that is why I think that it should be handled by only one or two people, who use a template, instead of anyone posting

What if the template includes a disclaimer that the post is for info purposes only and SM doesn't endorse the breeder, and everyone should investigate further on their own? 

What if it was only one or two posts per week with multiple links to available puppies on one post? Would that still imply endorsement? 

If what you are saying is correct, then every time someone posts a suggestion to any forum on anything at all, whether it is a dog bowl, a carrier, a certain food, a medicine/supplement, or a purse, and it doesn't work out, then there is a risk that the person who took the advice of the OP's suggestion might be able to hold the OP or SM responsible. If this is so, then there is little that we can discuss for fear of litigation or consequences. 

I think that most people who joins forums understand that a forum is a place to share opinions and experiences, but not offer any official products or advice, but maybe I am wrong?


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I appreciate you and your insights, Erin.
> 
> With all due respect, that is why I think that it should be handled by only one or two people, who use a template, instead of anyone posting
> 
> ...


*I think the issue is that this site has a ban on the sale of animals. And it also has a rule that any conversation about a breeder can only be done by someone with first hand knowledge. *

*Therefore, I may think someone is not a good breeder, I may even know of a person who had a terrible experience, but if I don't have first hand knowledge I can't post. Therefore, it limits who can respond to puppy posts. *

*However, if someone says "I like X kibble" I can say that I don't like the ingrediants, I can say that I had a friend with a bad experience, I can engage in the discussion of the quality of the ingrediants or the maker of the food. I can even tell you what my vet says about the food. This can't be done with puppies. *

*Also, a product might cost $10-$60 and if a person is unhappy with a choice about the product that is one thing and they can try to resell it either here or online but a puppy can cost $1000 - $4000 and that is a whole different story (in regards to cost and resale). I think that's why it is different from a product or food endorsement or review.*


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## mfa (Oct 5, 2009)

Hunter's Mom said:


> The issue was deliberated, with strong opinions on both sides, with all members being given the opportunity to express their opinions and wishes.
> 
> I still feel as though the posting of puppies avaliable on breeders pages is advertising for that breeder and since this website has a strict policy about no sale of animals, I feel this violates this rule as the only purpose for advertising is to encourage sale. Example of a recent post: "I'm surprised that ___________ is still available! ______'s absolutely adorable, and what a steal."
> 
> ...



:goodpost::goodpost:!!!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Hunter's Mom said:


> *I think the issue is that this site has a ban on the sale of animals. And it also has a rule that any conversation about a breeder can only be done by someone with first hand knowledge. *
> 
> *Therefore, I may think someone is not a good breeder, I may even know of a person who had a terrible experience, but if I don't have first hand knowledge I can't post. Therefore, it limits who can respond to puppy posts. *
> 
> ...



Erin, you are spot on once again. Allowing ads for available puppies violates current policies and rules on SM - no live animal sales and only those with firsthand knowledge of a breeder may comment. Since the existing policy set by Joe was that no one with a connection to a breeder could post about available puppies, that would eliminate anyone with the required firsthand knowledge. That policy was set in place years ago after Joe requested one of our members remove her post about an available puppy from her breeder. 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/64912-7-month-old-female-puppy.html

Marsha brings up an excellent point that I don't think has been discussed yet. What if I want to post available puppies from a backyard breeder? How can we say only posts about puppies from responsible breeders are allowed? Who determines who is responsible and who is not?


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I thought that the old available puppy links format was great! 

I'm sorry I didn't participate in the old thread where this was debated- I frankly didn't want to even think about the stud service issue which was quite gross to me. But now many members have weighed in saying that they miss the puppy threads!! Lots of members may not have logged on or had time to participate at all times. Yung is willing to consider our opinions now, so we should all chime in if we want the puppy links back. And I for one would LOOOOOVE to see them come back!! :aktion033:

I thought that the old format was really well self-policed. I remember seeing threads of available pups from certain breeders some didn't like and members would chime in saying they did not think the breeder was reputable. I think it would be very hard for us all to come to a consensus whether each breeder in the world is reputable or not. So isn't it enough to have people make up their own mind seeing dissenting opinions on the issue as the individual breeders come up? 

I don't remember so many issues with these threads before! Maybe people were dissatisfied, but didn't say anything. But I don't recall lots of arguments in these threads. *Fact of the matter is, I think Spoiled Maltese draws most new members from those seeking new puppies. I love this community, and I would love for even more people to come join us and share their pups growing up with us!! **Even if there are slight differences in opinion amongst us, the big thing is we should do more to help new prospective puppy buyers to buy from show breeders or adopt rescues instead of buying from pet stores, mills, and backyard breeders. The average person is not splitting hairs with us over a small number of breeders we may not agree on. Frankly, if we who spend so much time learning about Maltese cannot agree on a breeder, then that is up for the puppy buyer herself to decide. *

In addition to helping the puppy buyer, I also think it's interesting to look to see how a specific breeder's "look" may be evolving from the puppies that they are breeding. It is really like another picture forum to me. I love it, and hope we can just go back to how it was. Anything that is trouble can still be reported on a case by case basis, just like every other thread! If it ain't broken, why fix it, right? :thumbsup:


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

princessre said:


> I thought that the old available puppy links format was great!
> 
> I'm sorry I didn't participate in the old thread where this was debated- I frankly didn't want to even think about the stud service issue which was quite gross to me. But now many members have weighed in saying that they miss the puppy threads!! Lots of members may not have logged on or had time to participate at all times. Yung is willing to consider our opinions now, so we should all chime in if we want the puppy links back. And I for one would LOOOOOVE to see them come back!! :aktion033:
> 
> ...


:ThankYou::goodpost:

I feel like this whole thing is getting a little nit-picky. Forums are a place for public discussion. It seems the more of these threads we have about rules, the more rules are being created. I know there are several of you with really strong opinions who don't mind the more strict, highly regulated place SM is coming to be, but there are many newbies who I am sure have benefited or at least enjoyed the available puppy threads, like myself, who feel too intimidated or ill-informed to chime in and say so in a thread like this. 

As far as the issue of it seeming like SM is endorsing breeders, what about their 'breeder page'? (Maltese Dogs Forum : Spoiled Maltese Forums - Breeders)

It simply has a disclaimer on the bottom stating the following *"ANY listing here is not a guarantee of the health or quality of the listed breeders, please use all available means of research before purchasing a puppy." *
If legal liability is such an issue, why not create another forum section (Available Maltese, for example) with a big sticky at the top stating something similar? 

I also agree with Suzan's point regarding personal endorsement. If we can discuss pet foods, toys, accessories, and websites we have stumbled upon with interesting information about Maltese health, training, etc., why not share links including info about available puppies? Many people on here are all for responsible breeders. While there may be a disagreement about some breeders, I have not ever seen an available puppy thread posted about a puppymill/byb. 

Try googling Maltese breeders and see what you come up with. Lots of PuppyFind type sites. People new to the breed need our help and we are one of the best resources when finding a new puppy/breeder. I don't think the best course of action is to stop that entirely. JMO..


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I appreciate you and your insights, Erin.
> 
> With all due respect, that is why I think that it should be handled by only one or two people, who use a template, instead of anyone posting
> 
> ...


Good post Suzan, agreed.




Hunter's Mom said:


> *I think the issue is that this site has a ban on the sale of animals. And it also has a rule that any conversation about a breeder can only be done by someone with first hand knowledge. *
> 
> *Therefore, I may think someone is not a good breeder, I may even know of a person who had a terrible experience, but if I don't have first hand knowledge I can't post. Therefore, it limits who can respond to puppy posts. *
> 
> ...


 

Erin, I don't think posting of puppies available on breeders pages (I.e., links) constitute as advertising; it is to share knowledge. People converse on the forum to share knowledge. This applies for why we post links and reviews of various food, grooming products, leashes, drinking bowls, pee pads, etc. Unless the seller is posting links of his puppies himself, but that is not the case here. Your example of a recent post: "_I'm surprised that ___________ is still available! ______'s absolutely adorable, and what a steal"_ to me is an *opinion,* which should be welcome and respected on an internet forum. I don't see anything wrong with making such a statement of opinion. 

You are right that there is no guarantee that a newbie conducts adequate research, and that we all have different ideas as to what/who is a "responsible/reputable/appropriate" breeder. But, that is the essence of an internet forum: we can all contribute our own views and let each person decide for him/herself. Each person is responsible for his/her own actions.* We are not here to decide for others or what is appropriate information to share. *SM is a vehicle for all members to share opinions and each person can judge for him/herself. The freedom to exchange information, no matter how diverse, is the premise of a forum. The slippery slope to me, occurs when we start imposing rules, policing what can posted, etc. That strips away at the basic purpose and meaning of our forum and might even impede its growth.

As for personal knowledge, well it varies in degrees. I have seen members say "I don't know X breeder well but did converse with her when looking and she seems nice." What is wrong with that? That is still personal knowledge. I don't think members need to be owners to have personal knowledge. So long as each person is candid about the *degree and limits* of knowledge, what is so wrong with that?

Further, I don't see the point of this: " They may jump on these posts and then, if something goes wrong, come after the person who posted the link and SM." SM is *not *endorsing any breeder...it is an internet forum where members share their lay person opinions. In this context, I don't see how anyone can "come after" anybody on SM for that, nor do I see SM being liable? for what? SM is a public forum. In addition, I think Suzan's suggestion of a disclaimer is effective if this is truly a concern. 

To add a minor point about cost (in terms of cost and resale): I dont think price (10 dollar shampoo vs 4K puppy) should play a role in governing what could be posted or shared on a public forum. Many of us rely on other's experience and tips because we are first time consumers/buyers and/or are restricted geographically to be able to see the pup or buy the item in a store. Price is relative and not the main point. I participate on another fashion forum where the cost of a purse is 10K and upwards, and other members rely on these tips to make their purchase...the point is the ability to share information on a forum, regardless of the price.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't mean to sound rude but I have some questions. Maybe Yung can clarify them for me? Maybe they were already answered in the previous threads?

Do you think that we would be helping or hurting prospective Maltese owners *avoid* puppy mills/bybs by restricting posts that provide links to show breeders puppies?

Who do you feel benefits from a rule restricting links to available puppies? 

Is it because of fear of the site being sued?

Or perhaps concern that a prospective dog owner will make an impulse buy?

Why is it being questioned now, when the practice has been done here for years? Were there issues?

The more rules that are created, the less people want to talk about anything for fear of breaking a rule. We are all adults here. When adults are treated like children, they have two choices. They can rebel and move on, or they can obey, and become childlike. I'd rather be treated as an adult and accept responsibility for my actions and words.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

godiva goddess said:


> Erin, I don't think posting of puppies available on breeders pages (I.e., links) constitute as advertising; it is to share knowledge. People converse on the forum to share knowledge. This applies for why we post links and reviews of various food, grooming products, leashes, drinking bowls, pee pads, etc. Unless the seller is posting links of his puppies himself, but that is not the case here. Your example of a recent post: "_I'm surprised that ___________ is still available! ______'s absolutely adorable, and what a steal"_ to me is an *opinion,* which should be welcome and respected on an internet forum. I don't see anything wrong with making such a statement of opinion.


Alice, I don't think you were involved in the first thread where we debated this issue. Yung has already stated that the puppy available threads constitute advertising:

"As for the whole advertising issue, whether direct or indirect -- it's still the same. Yes, a breeder might not come here and post links to their site but if you have a good experience with them and you do it, it is still advertising. It's called WORD-OF-MOUTH advertising. Any individual who's ever taken a course in marketing or had experience in the marketing world will tell you that this is the CHEAPEST and BEST kind of advertising possible. Make no mistake about it -- it is still advertising.

Hollywood studios virtually rely on word-of-mouth advertising after an opening weekend to keep raking in the dollars for their movies. It's why movies like the Dark Knight and Avatar have staying power and why everyone has to see it -- because the media got it in our heads AND all our friends or family saw it and gushed about it. We just had to see it too. "

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/58-suggestions-feedback/104819-updating-rules-sm-discussion-breeders-9.html#post1770886


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Suzan, I don't think this is about being treated like adults or children.

It is about "All or nothing". We post pictures or we don't post pictures and links.

If we post pictures and links then my horrible Puppy Mill lady can join and post her link and pictures.....right?

If we have a list, like Tina's, then the new people can look and ask questions and find out who on SM has a puppy from that breeder. 

I am afraid the BYB's, Puppy Millers and Breed for Greeders will jump on the chance to show their adorable pups just by joining SM.
We all know who our great Breeders are on here and they can show their pups as they are not selling, they are breeding for show.

The concern is we will look like "Puppies R Us" with all the shady breeders getting on board.
I do think I am throwing out a legitimate question to discuss and the potential of a huge problem lurking in opening up SM.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

So if that is the case, isn't stating where we got our maltese word-of-mouth advertising also?


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

No Brit, just giving info if someone asks about sweet, adorable and the cutest girl ever, Cosy.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I feel like right now we can't see the forest for the trees.

If preventing people from buying puppies from mills, breeders, and pet stores is considered a top objective of SM (which I think it is), then the best way to do so is to make it as easy as possible for them to buy from a show breeder. Providing links to available puppies would achieve this objective.

If we are to have the most dynamic community most possible, then we should actively encourage more new members to join and stay. The best way to attract new members is to educate them on how they can procure a new puppy. Providing links to available puppies would facilitate their procuring a puppy in the way that we recommend.

I think of these two as the most important objectives of Spoiled Maltese, and I see the puppy links as helping us to achieve both objectives.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Actually, I think personal recommendations and references are the strongest form of advertising. So you could argue that we shouldn't be allowed to say where our fluffs are from or recommend our own breeders.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Ladysmom said:


> Alice, I don't think you were involved in the first thread where we debated this issue. Yung has already stated that the puppy available threads constitute advertising:
> 
> "As for the whole advertising issue, whether direct or indirect -- it's still the same. Yes, a breeder might not come here and post links to their site but if you have a good experience with them and you do it, it is still advertising. It's called WORD-OF-MOUTH advertising. Any individual who's ever taken a course in marketing or had experience in the marketing world will tell you that this is the CHEAPEST and BEST kind of advertising possible. Make no mistake about it -- it is still advertising.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Marj, You are right, I was not involved nor aware of the first thread.

But, since Yung has invited a discussion regarding the rule as well as stating that he is inviting suggestions to go back to the drawing board, I believe this is the appropriate time and place to post my opinions.




admin said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> Thanks for all your feedback on the rules. It's quite clear that of the rules we posted, the one concerning the "no posting available puppies for sale threads" has stirred quite a lot of reaction. This is understandable and I appreciate the candid feedback that you are providing in a respectful manner. *The thing about rules is that they are changeable and for me, I will be the first one to go back to the drawing boards if needed. It seems in this particular instance, we might have to do that with just this particular rule. I would like to invite your suggestions on this particular one -- either you can post it here or send it to me in private. Let me know please. Thanks*.
> 
> Yung


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Oh come on....we can and do say where are babies are from.

Let me make this clear what I am saying.....
If we say it is OK to post pictures and links, aside from a breeders list, we would open up a free for all for BYB's, Puppy Millers and Breed for Greeders as they would post their puppies and links.
I only mentioned a concern to discuss.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Since we have a history of doing this (posting available puppy pics), we don't need to conjecture or dwell in theoreticals!! Let's simply consult the past. Did we have a horrible history of alot of horrible mills, BYB's, and brokers coming here to post available puppy links and pics? *Correct me if I'm wrong, but I DON'T BELIEVE SO.* Based on this fact, I think the benefits of posting available puppy links to our members far outweigh the costs.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Yes Sophia, we did have byb's posting and bad breeders.

I have added my thoughts and now will step back.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

In my recollection, the BYB's and mills posting to puppy threads was a RARE problem that was EASILY RECTIFIED by a quick report to Admin. I don't think it was a COMMON problem.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

I didn't see any.... I always saw available puppies from very good breeders. Those postings actually helped me realize what good breeders looked like and what they did. Before coming here I was ready to buy from a BYB. This forum helped me realize what I was going to do and stopped me before it became too late.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Oooh, we had some lulu's, Sophia. I'm sorry to say. That was a tough time and people were warned, suspended and some banned. Not all were breeders but some who fought against it. Gives me a headache to think of those times.


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## Purple-peep (May 14, 2009)

What if threads were started that didn't provide a direct link. The consumer would have to do their own search to find the breeder.

For instance: __ has puppies available.

This would encourage a prospective buyer to go directly to the breeders home page and hopefully look around first, before they check out available puppies.

P.S. Godiva, I'd love to see your purses:thumbsup:! I can't go beyond Kate Spade and Dooney LOL.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Cosy said:


> Oooh, we had some lulu's, Sophia. I'm sorry to say. That was a tough time and people were warned, suspended and some banned. Not all were breeders but some who fought against it. Gives me a headache to think of those times.


When was this? I don't recall this happening much in the last 1.5 years that I have been a member? If it wasn't the last 1.5 years, then what has changed to minimize the problem? Or if it was within the last 1.5 years, where have I been? :HistericalSmiley:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

That is why I suggested Yung ask a trusted member or two to volunteer to research the breeders sites and only they can post the links This way there are no BYB's or puppy mills involved.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

Nikki's Mom said:


> That is why I suggested Yung ask a trusted member or two to volunteer to research the breeders sites and only they can post the links This way there are no BYB's or puppy mills involved.


I second that great idea! :aktion033:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> That is why I suggested Yung ask a trusted member or two to volunteer to research the breeders sites and only they can post the links This way there are no BYB's or puppy mills involved.


How can you research a breeder by their website alone? We've had a couple of recent threads involving reputable show breeders that show the dangers of judging a breeder solely by their website. People commented on red flags because of multiple breeds (Cherub) and red flags because there was no information on the website (LarMor). On the other hand, there are some slick websites out there masquerading as show breeders, when they are not. We've had firsthand experience with that here on SM, too.

If the policy here is that only members with firsthand knowledge be able to comment on breeders, shouldn't that extend to any volunteers appointed to judge the suitability of breeders with puppies available? How would we ever be able to find someone with firsthand experience with all the breeders? 

Wouldn't having an approval process based upon SM members researching a breeder imply that the particular breeder has "passed" inspection and is endorsed by SM? Not only is that misleading, it could lead to legal problems.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Okay, so I've asked some longer-timers, it seems that those BYB's and mills were on before I joined 1.5 years ago, but got "smoked out". So recently we haven't had big problems with this. I would think that having had problems a long time ago shouldn't deter us from having puppy links now.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> How can you research a breeder by their website alone? We've had a couple of recent threads involving reputable show breeders that show the dangers of judging a breeder solely by their website. People commented on red flags because of multiple breeds (Cherub) and red flags because there was no information on the website (LarMor). On the other hand, there are some slick websites out there masquerading as show breeders, when they are not. We've had firsthand experience with that here on SM, too.
> 
> If the policy here is that only members with firsthand knowledge be able to comment on breeders, shouldn't that extend to any volunteers appointed to judge the suitability of breeders with puppies available? How would we ever be able to find someone with firsthand experience with all the breeders?
> 
> Wouldn't having an approval process based upon SM members researching a breeder imply that the particular breeder has "passed" inspection and is endorsed by SM? Not only is that misleading, it could lead to legal problems.



See, that is where we get into minutia. I don't think it has to be that complicated. Many long-time members here know who the reputable show breeders are. Maybe one of them would like to volunteer. 

If someone somehow makes a mistake, another knowledgeable member will pm and let them know, and the mistake will be corrected. We're not talking about a life-death situation, it's just telling people puppies are available. Seems like we are making a total mountain out of a molehill. 

It also seems like we are forgetting to give credit to some very knowledgeable, long-time members here who always help with keeping things REAL most of the time. Why wouldn't they be able to help keep the available puppy thread REAL? They've done it before.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> See, that is where we get into minutia. I don't think it has to be that complicated. Many long-time members here know who the reputable show breeders are. Maybe one of them would like to volunteer.
> 
> If someone somehow makes a mistake, another knowledgeable member will pm and let them know, and the mistake will be corrected. We're not talking about a life-death situation, it's just telling people puppies are available. Seems like we are making a total mountain out of a molehill.
> 
> It also seems like we are forgetting to give credit to some very knowledgeable, long-time members here who always help with keeping things REAL most of the time. Why wouldn't they be able to help keep the available puppy thread REAL? They've done it before.


I just don't see how we can require firsthand knowledge for commenting on breeders, but not for approving links to their puppies.

Too me, it makes it much more complicated when every situation has to be evaluated on a case by case basis and mistakes have to be corrected after the fact. Joe's policy was a great example of that. No one with a connection to a breeder was supposed to post about available puppies, but since the policy was too vague, it was abused over the years.

"Knowing" who the reputable show breeders are is just too ambiguous. Over the years I have been a member, some breeders who were perceived to be reputable turned out not to be, including some who were members here. Unless you visit a breeder and have firsthand experience, you can't go by reputation and website.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

There are many of us here who HAVE visited breeders and know firsthand. That's an accumulation of info that could be used.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Anybody who wants to volonteer for that job should think twice. I would not even touch it if I would get paid for it. With my experience on SM, no way.

IMHO this is way too complicated.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Ack! I'm bowing out of this one. 

Yung, do whatever you want. I'm not offering any more input.


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## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

Nikki's Mom said:


> That is why I suggested Yung ask a trusted member or two to volunteer to research the breeders sites and only they can post the links This way there are no BYB's or puppy mills involved.


And who is to determine whether that person is really a trusted person knowing if the person is REALLY a trusted member? Seriously, there have been "trusted" members before on this forum who were what I consider byb or puppymill breeders. I don't trust some of the trusted members to be trusted members who will be ones to choose who is trusted and who isn't. LOL! <and that was meant to be a trusted statement, if you get my point>


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

And the breeder you (generic you) visited 2 years ago could be a puppy mill today. Or it could be another Hollybelle's...where even current visitors said "how reputable and wonderful". What you (generic you) know about one breeder says reputable...what I (generic I) know indicates otherwise. Nobody is omniscient. I don't think any handful of people can deem a breeder reputable or not based on a website, and I highly doubt that handful has visited every breeder listed.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

MalteseJane said:


> Anybody who wants to volonteer for that job should think twice. I would not even touch it if I would get paid for it. With my experience on SM, no way.
> 
> IMHO this is way too complicated.


Can you imagine having to argue with someone about why their puppy available thread has been rejected based solely upon their website or our opinion of their breeding program rather than firsthand information? :w00t: :w00t:

Nope, no way, no how, not even for $$$$!


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Well, wait. Maybe for $$$$ someone would. Not me, but someone!


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

admin said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> Thanks for all your feedback on the rules. It's quite clear that of the rules we posted, the one concerning the "no posting available puppies for sale threads" has stirred quite a lot of reaction. This is understandable and I appreciate the candid feedback that you are providing in a respectful manner. The thing about rules is that they are changeable and for me, I will be the first one to go back to the drawing boards if needed. It seems in this particular instance, we might have to do that with just this particular rule. I would like to invite your suggestions on this particular one -- either you can post it here or send it to me in private. Let me know please. Thanks.
> 
> Yung


In my opinion, everything seemed to self-police pretty well. Members would post links to Breeder's available puppy page..every one I saw were from exhibitors/breeders. If they were from a clear-cut backyard breeder, members here would quickly speak up. Like I've said before, people have different opinions of reputable when it comes to some of the smaller details of a breeding program. While XYZ breeder may show in conformation and be fine for one member, I may not like how they conduct something about their breeding program. But that is for me to research and find out for myself. Another member may not like the breeder I have chosen for some reason..and that is fine. Sometimes breeders can be reputable without being the right breeder for myself if that makes sense. But anyway, I did enjoy seeing the threads. However, I do NOT want breeders posting actual FOR SALE threads on here. There is a big difference in my opinion.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

myfairlacy said:


> In my opinion, everything seemed to self-police pretty well. Members would post links to Breeder's available puppy page..every one I saw were from exhibitors/breeders. If they were from a clear-cut backyard breeder, members here would quickly speak up. Like I've said before, people have different opinions of reputable when it comes to some of the smaller details of a breeding program. While XYZ breeder may show in conformation and be fine for one member, I may not like how they conduct something about their breeding program. But that is for me to research and find out for myself. Another member may not like the breeder I have chosen for some reason..and that is fine. Sometimes breeders can be reputable without being the right breeder for myself if that makes sense. But anyway, I did enjoy seeing the threads. However, I do NOT want breeders posting actual FOR SALE threads on here. There is a big difference in my opinion.


I completely agree with you, Michele. :thumbsup:

I think the only thing we should do to improve what we had before is to add a disclaimer stating that it is up to the person to research the breeders to really establish if they are reputable (according to his/her standards). I think we can handle if the rare BYB/puppy mill post pops up. I've never seen one, but I know it can happen and I have faith that SM and its members can deal with it.


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

I think it should be left just the way it has always been. BYB don't stay around very long; we have many members here that see to it that the byb & disreputable breeders are shown to be who they really are. We seem to police ourselves pretty well.


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## Administrator (Sep 22, 2009)

Hi everyone, just wanted you all to know that I'm still weighing this particular issue with some of my trusted people behind the scenes. It's not a topic we take lightly which is why I've been sitting here and reading everything you guys are posting. Thank you to everyone who has posted their thoughts on this issue so far.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

myfairlacy said:


> In my opinion, everything seemed to self-police pretty well. Members would post links to Breeder's available puppy page..every one I saw were from exhibitors/breeders. If they were from a clear-cut backyard breeder, members here would quickly speak up. Like I've said before, people have different opinions of reputable when it comes to some of the smaller details of a breeding program. While XYZ breeder may show in conformation and be fine for one member, I may not like how they conduct something about their breeding program. But that is for me to research and find out for myself. Another member may not like the breeder I have chosen for some reason..and that is fine. Sometimes breeders can be reputable without being the right breeder for myself if that makes sense. But anyway, I did enjoy seeing the threads. However, I do NOT want breeders posting actual FOR SALE threads on here. There is a big difference in my opinion.


:goodpost: That's all i'm saying this go around


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

This may come as a huge shocker to you all, but...

I ABSOLUTELY LOVED THE WAY THINGS WERE!

I want to echo what others have already said: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with having members share puppy availability on this forum. Before going to bed, I love cuddling with Sophie and browsing SM, while simultaneously going through breeders’ websites and ogling at the adorable puppies. When I see that a sweet puppy is available, my first instinct is to share with SM. I want others to enjoy the beauty and cuteness of the available puppy, as I’ve enjoyed, and more importantly, I want to give a friendly heads up to those who are looking to add a puppy to their home. I see absolutely no harm in doing this. I think this is doing more of a service to SM than a disservice, as it most likely deters the prospective buyer from purchasing from a BYB or pet store and encourages him/her to go to a reputable breeder. 

Yes, on occasion, we do get those threads that make us cringe, e.g., the stud service thread, but seriously, how often does that happen? Not too often, as already pointed out. And on the rare occasion that it does happen, our awesome members jump on it like a pack of ravenous piranhas on fresh meat, and consequently, the thread is closed-- pretty easily remedied, if you ask me. I think having a thread like this pop up once in a blue moon is a small price to pay for being able to guide members to a reputable breeder and helping members find their perfect furry companion. :wub:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

lovesophie said:


> This may come as a huge shocker to you all, but...
> 
> I ABSOLUTELY LOVED THE WAY THINGS WERE!
> 
> ...


 
:HistericalSmiley:Yes.....that's a big shock, LOL. I always enjoy seeing your posts of available puppies you've come across. And my friend Elaine is always emailing me pictures of chihuahua puppies too. How fun is that?! 

Who doesn't like looking at adorable "well-bred" puppies?  And what a great time saver if someone does happen to be ready for a pup...gives them a great starting point for their search.

.....I don't believe for one minute that if an unscrupulus (spelling?) person or breeder advertises puppies, that they won't be pounced upon by many diligent SM members.....nope, I think we've policed this area just fine.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

lovesophie said:


> This may come as a huge shocker to you all, but...
> 
> I ABSOLUTELY LOVED THE WAY THINGS WERE!
> 
> ...


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

One thing that concerns me is when the same breeders keep coming up again and again with 'available puppies' ... I'm not really sure what to think. We had a rather lengthy discussion some while back about inline breeding/research, etc... it takes a lot of time to do all these things. How much time is being allocated to researching and bettering the breed if one is constantly producing litters?** I am NOT casting aspercions at any one breeder, just thinking outloud. Because I have to wonder if those lovely breeders who produce an occassional litter (rather than constantly breeding their stock) are the ones who are actually spending the bulk of their time trying to better their programs through research, etc? And, if so, how do we make sure these extra special breeders get the same representation and not just the breeders who always seem to have puppies available? Anyone have thoughts on this?

**Having had to help care for an unexpected litter from a rescue dog, I know it is Very time consumptive and leaves little time for anything else...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

The A Team said:


> .....I don't believe for one minute that if an unscrupulus (spelling?) person or breeder advertises puppies, that they won't be pounced upon by many diligent SM members.....nope, I think we've policed this area just fine.


A thread like that may be pounced on, but on what basis could Yung take it down? As we have discussed over and over again, a breeder should not be judged by the website or heresay alone, but only by firsthand knowledge.

As Yung stated when he first opened up this huge can of worms, he is looking to clarify things, to come up with a black and white policy. He specifically said that allowing some advertising potentially opens the door for other advertising we may not like.

"I'm a black and white sort of guy. I don't sugarcoat things and I try not to get into grey areas. So if your answer to the question is "yes", it potentially will open the door for all types of animals advertised. If your answer is "no", it potentially will seal the door on all types of animals being offered on SM."

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/58-suggestions-feedback/104792-updating-rules-sm-selling-pets.html

If you recall, it was the stud thread and no specific rule against it which prompted this whole discussion.

We have seen from past (and recent) experience here on SM that when someone has a thread removed, they often challenge why it was taken down. Without a rule to point to, decisions made by the admin team are arbitrary. That can cause lots of problems (again, look at past history) when members claim the decision was unfair and point to an example with similar facts that was handled differently.

IMO, rules should be simple and clearcut so everyone can understand them.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

"If your post or thread was removed, do not start a thread asking why. This action will subject you to warning, suspension or ban. *If a thread or post is removed, it means that the admin or mod removed it in the best interest of the forum’s community and no explanation will be forthcoming*." -from the new rules

Yung can remove anything. We'll just have to report the BYB or mill puppy posting and explain to him why we don't think they're reputable. As myfairlacy said, we self-police ourselves pretty well.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Miss_Annie said:


> "If your post or thread was removed, do not start a thread asking why. This action will subject you to warning, suspension or ban. *If a thread or post is removed, it means that the admin or mod removed it in the best interest of the forum’s community and no explanation will be forthcoming*." -from the new rules
> 
> Yung can remove anything. We'll just have to report the BYB or mill puppy posting and explain to him why we don't think they're reputable. As myfairlacy said, we self-police ourselves pretty well.


You can explain to him why you don't think the breeder is reputable based upon firsthand knowledge. What if you don't like the breeder's website, but have no personal experience that they are a byb or puppymill?

The way I read Yung's announcement is that the Admin or Mod does not have to publicly explain why a thread or post was removed, but members challenge these decisions all the time. There was just a discussion on FB over members claiming they were suspended supposedly for no reason, with no rules being broken. Right or wrong, people tend to get upset over "because I said so" discipline.

But again, if you read Yung's original question, he is looking for a black and white policy to avoid the pitfalls of having gray areas.

I honestly think we have discussed this issue to death. :beating a dead hors

I think it's time to just let Yung and his team make whatever decision they think is right for SM and respect it.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

Did he not explain it to the individuals? If he didn't then he really means that he owes no explanation for his actions as an admin. 

If I don't like a breeders website, then that's just my personal opinion and it won't matter. I just won't buy a puppy from them. I'll still have to do my research. If there are big red flags, we can say so in the thread and see if anyone has any first hand knowledge with the breeder. I just don't understand why we're expecting SM members to post available puppies from mills of BYBs.

If you want to get rid of the available puppy posts, don't we need to tell the breeders to get rid of the links to their websites in their signatures? Or should they have to change their names so that no one can come to the conclusion that they're breeders? I just don't see why the available puppy threads were such a problem. Many SM members enjoyed them.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

That's the problem.

Yung and all of the members are dealing with an issue that is not "black and white," but everyone is trying to force it to be black and white. 

Not five minutes ago I just had Nikki's groomer ask me about available Maltese puppies. There is no way I can take the time to help her. I wish we had a pinned thread or at least a complete breeder listing.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Miss_Annie said:


> If you want to get rid of the available puppy posts, don't we need to tell the breeders to get rid of the links to their websites in their signatures?


Breeders are not allowed to have links to their websites in their signatures. 

Please read this post from Yung:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/58-...ing-rules-sm-selling-pets-10.html#post1770438


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> That's the problem.
> 
> Yung and all of the members are dealing with an issue that is not "black and white," but everyone is trying to force it to be black and white.
> 
> Not five minutes ago I just had Nikki's groomer ask me about available Maltese puppies. There is no way I can take the time to help her. I wish we had a pinned thread or at least a complete breeder listing.


I am 100% in favor of a complete breeder list if we could somehow agree on who should be on the list. That gives a newbie a starting point for their research that, hopefully along with all the pinned threads w/advice on finding a reputable breeder, can help someone find the perfect puppy.

Suzan, why don't you send your groomer the link to the list on Tina's website?

http://www.itsmagicmaltese.com/blank_8.html


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

:aktion033:
Yea Marj, that is just what I was trying to get across. A pinned thread showing all the Breeders with their web site.


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## Miss_Annie (Mar 3, 2010)

I too would be greatful for a breeder list!


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

Wouldn't it help if the breeder list was international? We have a lot of members not from the US.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Ladysmom said:


> I am 100% in favor of a complete breeder list if we could somehow agree on who should be on the list. That gives a newbie a starting point for their research that, hopefully along with all the pinned threads w/advice on finding a reputable breeder, can help someone find the perfect puppy.
> 
> Suzan, why don't you send your groomer the link to the list on Tina's website?
> 
> USA BREEDER'S



What about if we had a list which required two (three?) references from individuals (not same family) on SM who have been members of this forum for say at least 6 (12?) months. Ideally those references should be people who own a puppy from the breeder, but could be someone who has visited their home or has some other credible first hand knowledge. 

Perhaps, those references could agree to be contacted when a newbie has questions. 

The list could be broken down by regions (maybe even use the AKC region system).


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

CloudClan said:


> What about if we had a list which required two (three?) references from individuals (not same family) on SM who have been members of this forum for say at least 6 (12?) months. Ideally those references should be people who own a puppy from the breeder, but could be someone who has visited their home or has some other credible first hand knowledge.
> 
> Perhaps, those references could agree to be contacted when a newbie has questions.
> 
> The list could be broken down by regions (maybe even use the AKC region system).


That is a great idea, Carina! :thumbsup:


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

CloudClan said:


> What about if we had a list which required two (three?) references from individuals (not same family) on SM who have been members of this forum for say at least 6 (12?) months. Ideally those references should be people who own a puppy from the breeder, but could be someone who has visited their home or has some other credible first hand knowledge.


IMO, only people who did home visits would really be qualified to attest...they would see first hand how the dogs in the breeding program lived/were treated/how many dogs there actually were living on the property/were they living in the home with the person or in another building, etc. Otherwise, it's just a numbers game (ie, the more pups from litters sold to people on SM the more the breeder will get the 'thumbs up' which doesn't necessarily represent anything other than a beautiful dog)? ... ? On 'that other forum' I remember hearing of a very well known breeder who delivered a pup with giardia...sure it was beautiful, but sometimes when things like that happen it seems like maybe the breeding is too fast and furious instead of slower with more methodology. I don't know though, having never bred dogs myself.

(I read on FB, for example, about a breeder whose program many would consider good [good enough that other breeders will exchange breeding stock with them] who actually brokers their puppies. You wouldn't necessarily know this unless you paid a home visit and saw the number of dogs/puppies living at the house/on the property)


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

The problem with that is if we (the active SM membership) don't have three people with dogs from a certain breeder that breeder can't be on the list. It's not really a fair way since they may very well be a great breeder. 
If someone comes here in search of a pup ( or older malt ) other than rescue, we can direct them to our learning threads, topics and suggest they start with asking some owners (on here) if they like the looks or personality of that dog, questions regarding that person's breeder - and they can also check the AMA list as well. It seems to me, at the very best, all we can do is list breeders who have sold or placed dogs with the SM membership IF they are exhibitor/breeders and IF the owner feels comfortable with their transaction enough to recommend them. It needs to be stated that the list may or may not be complete.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Cosy said:


> The problem with that is if we (the active SM membership) don't have three people with dogs from a certain breeder that breeder can't be on the list. It's not really a fair way since they may very well be a great breeder.


Excellent point


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

myfairlacy said:


> In my opinion, everything seemed to self-police pretty well. Members would post links to Breeder's available puppy page..every one I saw were from exhibitors/breeders. If they were from a clear-cut backyard breeder, members here would quickly speak up. Like I've said before, people have different opinions of reputable when it comes to some of the smaller details of a breeding program. While XYZ breeder may show in conformation and be fine for one member, I may not like how they conduct something about their breeding program. But that is for me to research and find out for myself. Another member may not like the breeder I have chosen for some reason..and that is fine. Sometimes breeders can be reputable without being the right breeder for myself if that makes sense. But anyway, I did enjoy seeing the threads. However, I do NOT want breeders posting actual FOR SALE threads on here. There is a big difference in my opinion.


:goodpost:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Brit and Eileen, you both make excellent points about the difficulty of screening breeders for a list or a puppies available thread. 

It's a huge responsibility to recommend a breeder to someone. I learned that the hard way recently. A member on a Yorkie forum wanted to get a Maltese and asked me for breeder recommendations. I sent her a link to a thread from SM with the names of several show breeders in her state. She settled on one from the thread and was just in love with her puppy. Tragically, her puppy died at only 5 months old from a congenital condition (AAI). Her heart was, and is still, broken.

I honestly don't know if I would feel comfortable ever recommending a breeder again unless I knew the breeder personally, had been to her home and done business with her.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

CloudClan said:


> What about if we had a list which required two (three?) references from individuals (not same family) on SM who have been members of this forum for say at least 6 (12?) months. Ideally those references should be people who own a puppy from the breeder, but could be someone who has visited their home or has some other credible first hand knowledge.
> 
> Perhaps, those references could agree to be contacted when a newbie has questions.
> 
> The list could be broken down by regions (maybe even use the AKC region system).


Carina this is too complicated. It's never going to work.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

The shame of all of this is : How many people actually read and research this forum, which is such an invaluable source of information before the old "where can I buy a cute puppy in my state" question? 

I'm all for helping people. You all do such a wonderful job educating. Sometimes though, it just seems like so much repetition, and I feel like a lot of members are doing the buyers homework for them. Does that make any sense? All this information should be pinned. 

As far as available puppies, perhaps the breeder can make a small donation to SM for the advertising. At the end of a year, SM sends the money to a rescue group. 
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Ladysmom said:


> Brit and Eileen, you both make excellent points about the difficulty of screening breeders for a list or a puppies available thread.
> 
> It's a huge responsibility to recommend a breeder to someone. I learned that the hard way recently. A member on a Yorkie forum wanted to get a Maltese and asked me for breeder recommendations. I sent her a link to a thread from SM with the names of several show breeders in her state. She settled on one from the thread and was just in love with her puppy. Tragically, her puppy died at only 5 months old from a congenital condition (AAI). Her heart was, and is still, broken.
> 
> I honestly don't know if I would feel comfortable ever recommending a breeder again unless I knew the breeder personally, had been to her home and done business with her.


It is really hard to recommend breeders to people when you haven't personally delt with the breeder. When I do suggest breeders to people I always tell them that these breeders have a good reputation and appear good to me but to please do their own research and ask a lot of questions since I haven't personally spoken with the breeder. If it is one I have delt with, that's a different story. A lot of breeders can have great websites, say the right things, and show dogs..but that doesn't mean they are actually doing the right things. For example, there are some show breeders on YT that appear to have great reputations on YT, but in real life they aren't so well thought of....


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

myfairlacy said:


> It is really hard to recommend breeders to people when you haven't personally delt with the breeder. When I do suggest breeders to people I always tell them that these breeders have a good reputation and appear good to me but to please do their own research and ask a lot of questions since I haven't personally spoken with the breeder. If it is one I have delt with, that's a different story. A lot of breeders can have great websites, say the right things, and show dogs..but that doesn't mean they are actually doing the right things. For example, there are some show breeders on YT that appear to have great reputations on YT, but in real life they aren't so well thought of....


I think the waters are getting muddy here. There seems to be two issues being discussed in this thread.
1. Recommending a breeder to someone.
2. Simply posting the availability of a breeders pups 

If someone is recommending a breeder they SHOULD have first hand knowledge. However, simply posting available pups I consider as an announcement/news bulletin, and up to the person interested to contact the breeder for purchase.

We (SM members) do a great job of self policing, and I really don't think there is cause for a rule to disallow the posting of adorable pups from active show breeders. This area of SM wasn't broke, so it doesn't have to be "fixed".


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