# Fear Aggression and Prozac for Izzy



## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Hi, 

I'm new to this forum and I posted a loooong introduction. My Izzy is taking Prozac, hopefully to help with her fear aggression. I've seached and read everything I can find on the net, but Izzy doesn't seem to "fit" any of the descriptions or training techniques. Maybe it's just my hopeful attitude, but I think it may be helping her. I'm holding my breath just waiting, because in her previous attacks, they seemed to come from "no where", just by being startled. She has attacked/attempted to attack a nurse at the nursing home, a lady at Lowe's, my daughter, and me. I haven't had her "out" for weeks, because I can't risk it. Even in harness and leash it's a scary thing to see. This is not regular barking. This is claws into the ground using full force lunging to attach, a growl beyond words, and every tooth showing. She has only turned on me one time, but has attacked my daughter, whom she loves, several times.

She can be calm, sitting on my lap, relaxed, and if started by a movement--she attacks with lunging and every attempt to bite. This IS NOT dominance aggression. She has NO food/treat aggression. She hates having her ears touched, but shows no aggression. The vet tried to "nag" her, and she showed nothing. She has shown NO aggression toward the puppies, but she's a smart doggie because she hated their breeder. Hmmmm, now we agree with her!!

We are positive she can see movement and is fine as long as the movement has sound, but movement without sound sends her into attack mode. I attempt to "warn" her that someone is coming, by saying "it's okay", but I never know what is going to scare her. Things like shoes moving, a moving balloon, leaves on a tree in the wind, moving a box in your hands, a moving bicycle, moving your feet, or putting your hands above your head....the list is endless. 

She has never liked people and has always snubbed them by turning her head when spoken to. She dislikes children, especially when they are playing and making "children" sounds, but loves my 8 year-old granddaughter. She'll bark at any dog, and loves to go out to our screened porch, just to get all the dogs in the neighborhood barking.

Pleeeease no scoldings. You would have to read my introduction to understand Izzy.

If any of you have any suggestions on what I should do, please share. I am VERY careful that she does not an opportunity to hurt anyone or the puppies.

Have any of you had doggies on Prozac? What dosage? Did it help?

Thank you,
Nonny


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Nonny.. I'm sure this has already been addressed but has Izzy's thyroid been checked? I've seen a couple of cases where 'aggression" out of nowhere was caused by a mal-functioning thyroid. I can't remember which test but it is the one that is less often tested. 
since this behavior seemd to come at the time of the vision impairment it is likely it is 'simply" fear since she get startled more easily with this condition.
I think you are enough "in-tuned" to her "Izzy-ness" that you would be the best judge as to whether she is being helped by the medication or not. I have no experience with the prozac but have heard it HAS helped "mello-out" doggies with "issues" and still not put them into 'la-la' land.
Wishing all the best for little Izzy! 
She has done so fantastically under your diligent care!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Antianxiety medication can be a pivitol part of a behavior modification program, but alone is NOT a cure. You need to fine a veterinary behaviorist to evaluate your dog and her need for medication. The idea of medication is to use it to take the edge off of anxiety so you can modify the behavior. Then the medication is weaned away. If you haven't seen a very experienced trainer or veterinary behaviorist to develop a program for Izzy, I highly doubt you will make significant progress with her issues with medication alone.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Does the vet think her limited eyesight is the problem here? Also, could it be neurological? 

Two years ago, I had a foster here who turned into one of those hard to place dogs. She was a sweet mix--Lab and something who got along well with the other rescues for about six months. Then, one day she had a total personality change. She attacked one of my Lab rescues twice without cause. She seriously injured this girl who required extensive vet care. I got pretty bit up in one of these attacks when I was trying to get the Lab to safety. It got to when I walked outside with one of the little ones, she would attack them in my arms. I feared she would do the same thing if I were holding a child. These attacks would come out of the clear blue, but were always unprovoked. I made the hard decision to have her put to sleep as my daugher was scared to bring my grandchildren here. After it was done, someone said that some dogs have reactions like this as a result of lyme's disease. I never did research it, but just remembered them telling me that.

Good luck with Izzy and her care.


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

The vet is "clueless". I swear I know more about a maltese than he does! I have yet to find a good vet for small dogs. He is nice, and better than some, but he never has the answer to any question that I have. I can't seem to find a "just right" vet. I took Izzy to one in Louisville, but jeepers, I have never seen such charges!! Izzy went to a cardiologist and a thoracic surgeon in Louisville for her heart surgery and had her $500 spay in Louisville. I need a local vet, with some answers, but so far I have been lucky enough to find a vet who has any maltese knowledge. Thank goodness, I can have input from all of you!


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> The vet is "clueless". I swear I know more about a maltese than he does! I have yet to find a good vet for small dogs. He is nice, and better than some, but he never has the answer to any question that I have. I can't seem to find a "just right" vet. I took Izzy to one in Louisville, but jeepers, I have never seen such charges!! Izzy went to a cardiologist and a thoracic surgeon in Louisville for her heart surgery and had her $500 spay in Louisville. I need a local vet, with some answers, but so far I have been lucky enough to find a vet who has any maltese knowledge. Thank goodness, I can have input from all of you![/B]



And we have Dr. Jaimie.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> The vet is "clueless". I swear I know more about a maltese than he does! I have yet to find a good vet for small dogs. He is nice, and better than some, but he never has the answer to any question that I have. I can't seem to find a "just right" vet. I took Izzy to one in Louisville, but jeepers, I have never seen such charges!! Izzy went to a cardiologist and a thoracic surgeon in Louisville for her heart surgery and had her $500 spay in Louisville. I need a local vet, with some answers, but so far I have been lucky enough to find a vet who has any maltese knowledge. Thank goodness, I can have input from all of you![/B]


You need a referral to a veterinary behaviorist. Most vet schools are a good resource for this if there is not one in private practice in your area (and vet schools tend to be a bit less expensive). If your reg vet doesn't have a referral, you might call the specialty practice who took care of her. They should have more resources. 

I don't think a trainer is appropriate for a case where medication is being advised and where a dog has significant medical history that could reflect on the behavior in question.


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Well, Izzy has been on Prozac long enough to be able to say YES it is helping her! She is more "her old self", complete with the Izzy-tude. I did not want her on a drug that turned her into a zombie and it hasn't. She has not had a single episode of the fear aggression since she started the drug. She's much happier too.







And more good news, she's even lost a few ounces too.










Nonny and Izzy and Bruiser and Chipper and little-girl-with-no-name-formerly-Bitsy


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

I spoke to another vet in the practice....and he said that when Izzy shows agression....no matter where we are....to flip her on her back........hold her down....and stare into her face. Yep, stare down a dog who can only see movement and shows no dominance aggression.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I am not speaking in position of authority in any way. What you are describing sounds like something that a good friend went through some years ago with a cocker spaniel. The vets referred to it as Rage Syndrome. Here is a link as it relates to Cockers and Springers......http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm

My friend's result was not very good, but I don't recall that her dog took any medication. I hope the Prozac works for Izzy. Meanwhile, I would get a behaviourist involved.......Please keep us posted.

PS. If you read all the way to the end of the article that I mentioned you will note that they no longer recommend the alpha roll......


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I spoke to another vet in the practice....and he said that when Izzy shows agression....no matter where we are....to flip her on her back........hold her down....and stare into her face. Yep, stare down a dog who can only see movement and shows no dominance aggression.[/B]


Yikes!!! That's the alpha roll and while it used to be the thing to do, we've now come a long way since then and know now that it is not. Here is just one (of many) links to info on this *outdated training method*. It's from About.com: 

"The Alpha Roll, once hailed as the premier way to prove to your dog who's "Alpha" (Boss) in the family, has been replaced by a gentler, more successful way of training. Now the Alpha Roll, besides being obsolete, has proven to be detrimental to the health and mental well-being of your dog, as well as downright dangerous to the 'Roller'". MORE ....... http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/a...erms=alpha+roll


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

And some vets still recommend it ! Makes you wonder if they "update" themself along their career.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

K/C I just read that article. Not sure I agree with the first part. When dogs are playing rough or fighting, one of them will lie on his back to show submission, it's not the stronger dog that makes the other one lie down forcefully, He is laying down by his own will. And normally, the stronger dog will let go the submissive dog at that moment (unless of course if it's a vicious dog). But to just assert dominance, he will not kill the submissive one. That's what you can see on documentaries with wolfes in pack.



It took me almost a year to get Alex to lay on his back to shave his belly. I suspect something happened at the groomer's and he was scared of the shaver on his belly. He was fine with the comb but when I took the shaver he would fight for his life. (shaver was fine every where else but belly) My husband had to hold him down for me in order to do his belly. Slowlly I got him to accept the shaver again, but as I said it took almost a year. Now he could not care less. I even can shave his ding dong. If I would have showed him dominance to make him accept to lay down for me, I don't think he would have trusted me again, not with his character, he has a mind of it's own. I got him that far with love and understanding and showing him that there is nothing to be afraid of. You are certainly not going to cure a dog of fear aggression by using that submissive method.


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Just wanted to clarify....that a vet told me to do the "alpha roll" or whatever you want to call it, but I never considered doing it to Izzy. Most of the time Izzy is gentle and sweet and loving. She's herself, loses control, then is right back to herself. I'm open for any advice or suggestions.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Just wanted to clarify....that a vet told me to do the "alpha roll" or whatever you want to call it, but I never considered doing it to Izzy. Most of the time Izzy is gentle and sweet and loving. She's herself, loses control, then is right back to herself. I'm open for any advice or suggestions.[/B]


Oh, I understood that you didn't do it. I wrote my post with info about the alpha roll for others who when seeing that your vet recommended it would have possibly tried it themselves.


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=204318
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder if that vet also flips his cows and horses on their backs and stares at them?


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