# Getting confused on my breeder search



## garrettsmom (May 15, 2006)

I'm a little confused as I continue my search for a breeder and hope some breeders out there can help me out. Via recommendations from some forum members, I've contacted a couple of out state breeders who seem very reputable and quite discriminating in the homes to which they agree to place their pups. I got the impression there were waiting lists for their small litters and previous buyers describe them as being "picky" to whom they sell. Yet, upon googling both of these breeders, I see they have advertised in their local classifed ads as well as in sites like "Next day pups" and Pets for you.com for their currently available puppies. One thing this forum has taught me is to stay away from the classified ads. Now I'm wondering if their "pickiness" is a ruse to draw in prospective buyers who think they're getting a puppy of greater quality than it really is. I mean, if their puppies were of such quality, would they have to advertise so heavily? Or.... am I being overly cautious considering I've already heard favorable reviews from current owners. Perhpas only the very top tier breeders don't need to advertise other than their web sites? Any thoughts on this?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

If you don't mind me asking, which breeders have you contacted upon reccomendations from forum members?

I don't think the breeders we most often recommend here do not advertise in classified ads or the websites you mentioned. (puppyfind.com is another one to steer clear of). Their reputation is built by word of mouth and accomplishments in the show ring.

If I were looking for a puppy, I'd either get one from one of the top tier show breeders or find a small, local breeder by attending dog shows in my area.


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

I did a search of my breeder and she does (aparrently) advertise,
though not like some of the lower end BYB.
I do think some (most) breeders are in it to make a buck. (or quite a few)
I for some reason pictured breeders as being kind of "blue blooded"
but have come to realize that many are not necessarily......
Is it wrong to advertise? I think probably not. It's not wrong in any other
"business". Is a better known breeder a "safer" bet? Probably so but not necessarily. 
I think that's why it's a safer bet to get recomendations from current owners.
Am I happy with my pups? Yes, without reservation. My pups are better pups than
I am an owner.
Would I purchase from the same breeder? Yes. Would I consider other breeders? Yes.
Would I search on the web for a breeder? No. Would I research recommended
breeders online? Absolutely.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Cary, it used to be that way, but larger prices beget larger greed. I'm sure the blue bloods are out there somewhere.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

JMO. I am a small show breeder. I do not intentionally set out to breed and sell puppies. I breed so that I have something to improve my breeding. It's hard to get the right mix in the breeding to get what you can win with in the ring. Having said that, what do I do with puppies that do not meet what I am looking for? As a good person I probably shouldn't even be doing this. I am creating puppies that will need homes. If I don't already have the puppies spoken for, how am I going to let people know I have these puppies to sell?
Advertising is the key to all business. Having at one time owned my own business, word of mouth is great, but how do you attract the people you want to have these puppies? The internet with web sites has opened a whole new way of advertising. Advertising in the classified is one way of attracting local people. Either way you still have to screen the people who are wanting to buy your puppies. 
When I first got into Maltese, Rhapsody and Divine were just starting to get recognized for breeding really nice dogs. Contracts were just coming out for what you could do or could not do with the puppy you bought. The "top tier" breeders were the "mid tier" breeders then. Sharon's site didn't exist. They got their web sites up and met lots of people at shows that they go to every weekend. They meet people interested in their puppies by what they see in the ring. They advertise in Top Notch Toys magazine, Maltese Rx, Maltese Magazine and Show dog and other dog magazines. By putting their picture in the magazine they are advertising their dogs and themselves. They are hoping the judges see these and then what happens with people, we have a tendency to pick what we are familiar with. Having seen their picture in a well known magazine can influence a judge. Included in the advertisment is their contact information. 
Is there any way of advertising that won't upset some people? Everyone has their own opinion of what is right and wrong with advertising a living, lovable animal. If you don't advertise yourself, who is going to hear of you? Who is going to know you even have puppies for sale? We are not allowed to advertise our puppies for sale on any forums, but you can advertise that you have other things for sale. Some people are just out for the buck. Sometimes its hard to know the difference. 
It is sooooo expensive to show your dog to its championship. By selling the puppies that don't fit what you like to show, off sets the cost a little. To sell you have to advertise. 
Like I said just my own opinion.
Tina


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Very well said, Tina. Thank you for explaining things from a breeder's standpoint. That clarifies a lot and maybe will make it easier for Garretsmom to find her puppy.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Tina,
Your explanation is very interesting and thoughtful. Thanks for giving us a breeders point of view.....

I am guessing that the advertising is not the concerning part, but the idea of "next day puppies". At the same time I understand that once a puppy reaches 12 weeks its saleability is at the peak and each week that he/she stays with the breeder may make them slightly more undesirable. (Except for people like me who like an older puppy just fine!) It is also an additional expense for the breeder to keep puppies. 

You've certainly given us some points to think about before we rush to judgement......


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## garrettsmom (May 15, 2006)

> JMO. I am a small show breeder. I do not intentionally set out to breed and sell puppies. I breed so that I have something to improve my breeding. It's hard to get the right mix in the breeding to get what you can win with in the ring. Having said that, what do I do with puppies that do not meet what I am looking for? As a good person I probably shouldn't even be doing this. I am creating puppies that will need homes. If I don't already have the puppies spoken for, how am I going to let people know I have these puppies to sell?
> Advertising is the key to all business. Having at one time owned my own business, word of mouth is great, but how do you attract the people you want to have these puppies? The internet with web sites has opened a whole new way of advertising. Advertising in the classified is one way of attracting local people. Either way you still have to screen the people who are wanting to buy your puppies.
> When I first got into Maltese, Rhapsody and Divine were just starting to get recognized for breeding really nice dogs. Contracts were just coming out for what you could do or could not do with the puppy you bought. The "top tier" breeders were the "mid tier" breeders then. Sharon's site didn't exist. They got their web sites up and met lots of people at shows that they go to every weekend. They meet people interested in their puppies by what they see in the ring. They advertise in Top Notch Toys magazine, Maltese Rx, Maltese Magazine and Show dog and other dog magazines. By putting their picture in the magazine they are advertising their dogs and themselves. They are hoping the judges see these and then what happens with people, we have a tendency to pick what we are familiar with. Having seen their picture in a well known magazine can influence a judge. Included in the advertisment is their contact information.
> Is there any way of advertising that won't upset some people? Everyone has their own opinion of what is right and wrong with advertising a living, lovable animal. If you don't advertise yourself, who is going to hear of you? Who is going to know you even have puppies for sale? We are not allowed to advertise our puppies for sale on any forums, but you can advertise that you have other things for sale. Some people are just out for the buck. Sometimes its hard to know the difference.
> ...


After thinking this over, I think you're right Tina. Breeders have to get the word out somehow that they have available puppies and the reputable ones will still screen prospective buyers to make sure they'll provide good homes . I'm going to go with my instinct and forum member recommendations when considering breeders and not misjudge them just because they've advertised beyond their web site....afterall, it all has the same intent........-> to sell. Thanks for your thoughts


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Hi Tina! I appreciate you taking the time to post on SM.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Tina, thank you so much for your very informative post. You have educated a lot of us, I'm sure!


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I have to say I think advertising isn't necessary in most breeders" programs that are show. The TNT and Maltese Magazines are for show breeders to exhibit their wins. It is not advertising puppies. Word of mouth goes far with good breeders and breeders refer others to breeders with pups when they don't have any to sell.

Web sites of show breeders sometimes have one or two pups for sale that they may have been holding onto to show and decided to let go for whatever reason. Most of their pups I would bank on being sold thru reputation. 

Yes, it costs money to show dogs but when I showed most of us did it for the LOVE of the breed, not to recoop our expenses for showing. I have to say, there are some added expenses these days but charging 3 or 4 thosand for a puppy would more than cover DNA testing and show entries, plus a moderate amount of traveling and motel expense. That is for only ONE puppy. So, if breeders find it necessary to advertise litters I have to believe there is a certain amount of greed involved. Sorry, just my two cents.


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## dolcevita (Aug 3, 2005)

I think that most people looking for their first puppy have no idea who the show breeders are, or where to find them. I had to do a lot of research, and even then I only came across a few show breeders, and those were in the top tier. How is someone in the mid tier of show breeders or just starting out going to get the word out that they have pups for sale? It is expensive to show and breed responsibly, and I have no problem with a breeder advertising their puppies. That said, I don't think sites like Next Day Puppies is the way to go. 

What about those ads in the back of Dog Fancy magazine? Does anyone know how reputable those breeders are? Just something I've been curious about.


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## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

> What about those ads in the back of Dog Fancy magazine? Does anyone know how reputable those breeders are? Just something I've been curious about.[/B]


I've flipped through the ads for Maltese in that mag before, and my impression is that they aren't very reputable. Many use the catch phrases "tiny teacup" and "babydoll face" and "pre-spoiled" ect... It just seems like anyone can advertise in those ads, and that most are the backyard breeder type.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

The advertisements in the TNT, Maltese Rx, and Maltese Magazine and others is to advertise their Kennel, such as mine is It's Magic Maltese. It lets people, judges, and other show people know who you are and what your accomplishments are. Without that no one would know who you were. I am sure most people haven't heard of my kennel or even who I am and what breed I have. But, if I advertise in the magazines, then people see my face and my dogs, then they familiarize themselves with who I am and what breed I have. This is how I started learning who people were when I first got started in showing. This is the point of advertising who you are, what breed you have and then if and I mean if you have puppies, or what ever available then they are more likely to remember you. 
Again, JMO.
Tina


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

If anyone wants to see a fabulous example of Tina's puppies, look here and meet "Magic"! What a stunner!

http://itsmagicmaltese.com/catalog.html

I notice you sold the little guy I admired a week or so ago. He was a doll, too!


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=284114
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Interesting that this came up because a friend told me tonight that she saw the December issue of Dog Fancy today, and Chrisman has a large ad in there. Hi-Lite and C and M were also advertising in the December issue.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I have to say I think advertising isn't necessary in most breeders" programs that are show. The TNT and Maltese Magazines are for show breeders to exhibit their wins. It is not advertising puppies. Word of mouth goes far with good breeders and breeders refer others to breeders with pups when they don't have any to sell.
> 
> Web sites of show breeders sometimes have one or two pups for sale that they may have been holding onto to show and decided to let go for whatever reason. Most of their pups I would bank on being sold thru reputation.
> 
> Yes, it costs money to show dogs but when I showed most of us did it for the LOVE of the breed, not to recoop our expenses for showing. I have to say, there are some added expenses these days but charging 3 or 4 thosand for a puppy would more than cover DNA testing and show entries, plus a moderate amount of traveling and motel expense. That is for only ONE puppy. So, if breeders find it necessary to advertise litters I have to believe there is a certain amount of greed involved. Sorry, just my two cents.[/B]



Last night, I followed a trail of search words and links to find some of these top breeders. I don't know that much about websites, but these words are posted on the websites of some of these breeders. When you type in that word and you can get a list that includes that person's website. Over and over, I did this for certain words. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it, as it is a method of advertising and getting that website before the public from many directions. All breeders advertise, and it's not just through reputation in the show ring. As one poster said, when many people start looking for a nice dog, they don't know who these breeders are. The nice websites help to educate them on what is out there. It's great to go to some of these well known breeders to see their dogs and their wins. Hopefully, it helps people make wise decisions about findng their dog. As my breeding and showing continues, I will be doing the same thing. In fact, I study how these "top tier" websites can be found to learn how to do mine.
As to the question on whether greed is involved, I would be more inclined to see greed when one of these breeders had eight litters at the same time last winter. Greed is having forty or fifty dogs in a breeding program. And, on that note, did anyone see the news story about Edgewood's fire? I believe they lost 61 of their 150 dogs. I'll make a separate post on that sad situation
I know most of you are much more computer smart than I am, but just to show how the search words are used to get that site to come up, I did a copy/paste of one. You can go on the website and see these words shown in a prominent way also.

Maltese Puppies Maltese Breeder Maltese Dogs for Sale Maltese ... 
Maltese breeders of Maltese Puppies and maltese dogs. Our Maltese puppies and Maltese Dogs available to approved homes. Maltese Dogs that are healthy is the ...

www.divinemaltese.com/History.html

http://www.divinemaltese.com/History.html

Here is another one. Just for fun, you can even type in spoiled maltese and get Foxstone's site to come up right under Spoiled Maltese. 

Also, link pages on websites pull that person up over and over. If you are bored, you can follow the trail of various breeders through links.


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## Villa Marsesca (Feb 27, 2006)

> JMO. I am a small show breeder. I do not intentionally set out to breed and sell puppies. I breed so that I have something to improve my breeding. It's hard to get the right mix in the breeding to get what you can win with in the ring. Having said that, what do I do with puppies that do not meet what I am looking for? As a good person I probably shouldn't even be doing this. I am creating puppies that will need homes. If I don't already have the puppies spoken for, how am I going to let people know I have these puppies to sell?
> Advertising is the key to all business. Having at one time owned my own business, word of mouth is great, but how do you attract the people you want to have these puppies? The internet with web sites has opened a whole new way of advertising. Advertising in the classified is one way of attracting local people. Either way you still have to screen the people who are wanting to buy your puppies.
> When I first got into Maltese, Rhapsody and Divine were just starting to get recognized for breeding really nice dogs. Contracts were just coming out for what you could do or could not do with the puppy you bought. The "top tier" breeders were the "mid tier" breeders then. Sharon's site didn't exist. They got their web sites up and met lots of people at shows that they go to every weekend. They meet people interested in their puppies by what they see in the ring. They advertise in Top Notch Toys magazine, Maltese Rx, Maltese Magazine and Show dog and other dog magazines. By putting their picture in the magazine they are advertising their dogs and themselves. They are hoping the judges see these and then what happens with people, we have a tendency to pick what we are familiar with. Having seen their picture in a well known magazine can influence a judge. Included in the advertisment is their contact information.
> Is there any way of advertising that won't upset some people? Everyone has their own opinion of what is right and wrong with advertising a living, lovable animal. If you don't advertise yourself, who is going to hear of you? Who is going to know you even have puppies for sale? We are not allowed to advertise our puppies for sale on any forums, but you can advertise that you have other things for sale. Some people are just out for the buck. Sometimes its hard to know the difference.
> ...


Hi Tina, 

Very good points taken, the reason RX and TNT and Maltese Magazines are out there is to get the Maltese show breeder to self promote, YES!!!! advertise..just read what the front cover costs, we are talking big expenses. you cannot breed and show without selling puppies, some breeders are small scale some are medium and some are very large. Having a quality website is very expensive and can cost thousands of dollars a year...also one year my vet bills were over $8,000..and I am a small breeder.

If folks want quality healthy Maltese they need to except the fact that a show breeder must first breed and produce in a humanily way and then puppies are available that they are not going to show, they may be beautiful but maybe the breeder needs to sell to pay her never ending expenses. Yes! to sell you must promote your puppies.

Cheers, Nedra


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## phoxxymaltese (Jan 6, 2007)

As most of you know I'm simply doing my homework/research "reputable" breeders. I was wondering if anyone has heard of Susen's Maltese in Texas? I received an email from her and wondered if she was a broker or being mentored by Tonia. I don't know something about the email makes me a little suspicious.


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## Villa Marsesca (Feb 27, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=284093
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These are called key words, I too have them on my website, I pay a large amount of money to a company to get my site out for search engines to find, this site Spoiled Maltese alo has the keywords:

keywords" CONTENT="maltese dog, maltese, dogs, breeders, rescue, grooming, tear staining, clubs, maltese dog breeders, puppies>

This is the only way websites can b found.

Cheers, Nedra


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=284711
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Just wanted to tell you Nedra your babies are beautiful.. 

ANDREA~


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## Villa Marsesca (Feb 27, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=318764
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> 
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> ...



These are called key words, I too have them on my website, I pay a large amount of money to a company to get my site out for search engines to find, this site Spoiled Maltese alo has the keywords:

keywords" CONTENT="maltese dog, maltese, dogs, breeders, rescue, grooming, tear staining, clubs, maltese dog breeders, puppies>

This is the only way websites can b found.

Cheers, Nedra
[/B][/QUOTE]
Just wanted to tell you Nedra your babies are beautiful.. 

ANDREA~
[/B][/QUOTE]


Thank you, I appreciate those whom enjoy looking at the Maltese my dogs are producing.

Cheers, Nedra


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> When I first got into Maltese, Rhapsody and Divine were just starting to get recognized for breeding really nice dogs. Contracts were just coming out for what you could do or could not do with the puppy you bought. The "top tier" breeders were the "mid tier" breeders then. Sharon's site didn't exist.[/B]


I would like to correct a couple of things in the above post as well as reply to some of the other posts in this thread.

Tina, If I am correct, you started breeding Maltese in 2001. My site has been on the internet since Nov 1998 which means that my site did, in fact, exsist when you started out, however the website has definitely grown over the years.







Also Divine and Rhapsody has been top breeders for a good many of the years that I have been in Maltese which goes back to 1989.

Now.......... to the posts concerning advertising. I, just today, did a search on Foxstone Maltese and was amazed







to find 734 links with at least 650 of those links being to those info pages that are like search engines. I hate those things and can see no reason why they are there, when half the time they are on basically useless websites that pull their results from search engines.







And I am sure you will find many of the other breeder websites used in this manor. We have no control over this type of advertising. As for keywords such as Maltese puppies, Maltese breeders, Maltese dogs, or any other combination..............those are buidt into every Maltese website. When you do a search for Maltese, how do you think the search engines can find that website for you to look at?







As for my website coming up under the search term "spoiled Maltese".......I have had the comment on my website since 1998, when my website was origonally published, stating "_My name is "Vanity"_ (_a very _ _spoiled Maltese_ _dog, I might add) and I will be your guide._" I don't believe that SpoiledMaltese.com was online when that comment was origonally published on my website. There is nothing deceptive going on..........the search robots pick up words off of the pages so when a term is put into a search engine, that is how the results are found.

I hope this helps to eliminate some of the confusion that there seems to be.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to this post and clarifying those points.

I would like to personally commend you on such an informative and educational website. I frequently post the link to your article on the twelve week rule for newbies who don't understand why a good breeder doesn't sell a puppy before that age. I also post the link to your article on show vs. pet quality which answers the question we get here so often about the diference in pricing between a "pet quality" puppy from a top breeder like youself and backyard breeder.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to this post and clarifying those points.
> 
> I would like to personally commend you on such an informative and educational website. I frequently post the link to your article on the twelve week rule for newbies who don't understand why a good breeder doesn't sell a puppy before that age. I also post the link to your article on show vs. pet quality which answers the question we get here so often about the diference in pricing between a "pet quality" puppy from a top breeder like youself and backyard breeder.[/B]


Ladysmom,
I am very happy to hear you feel the articles are helpful!!!







Over the years I have tried to utilize my Foxstone site as a pulbic education tool, so now I know my efforts have not been in vain.

Thank you so much for the compliments.


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

Vanitysmom - 
I read your entire website when I first started looking at Maltese! It was very helpful and so informative, I learned a great deal.

Thanks for keeping us informed.

J


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been in heaven just looking at everyones avatars in this thread!









I feel like I'm in the company of Kings and Queens of the Maltese community! If I was looking for a puppy, I'd have a hard time choosing a breeder, but it would be a breeder who is a member of Spoiled Maltese. 

When the time comes that I do want another Maltese, I would hope you would know me well enough (from posting on Spoiled Maltese) to know the baby would be getting a really good home.

There....I think all your dogs are beautiful. Thank you.


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## amber (Jan 30, 2004)

> JMO. I am a small show breeder. I do not intentionally set out to breed and sell puppies. I breed so that I have something to improve my breeding. It's hard to get the right mix in the breeding to get what you can win with in the ring. Having said that, what do I do with puppies that do not meet what I am looking for? As a good person I probably shouldn't even be doing this. I am creating puppies that will need homes. If I don't already have the puppies spoken for, how am I going to let people know I have these puppies to sell?
> Advertising is the key to all business. Having at one time owned my own business, word of mouth is great, but how do you attract the people you want to have these puppies? The internet with web sites has opened a whole new way of advertising. Advertising in the classified is one way of attracting local people. Either way you still have to screen the people who are wanting to buy your puppies.
> When I first got into Maltese, Rhapsody and Divine were just starting to get recognized for breeding really nice dogs. Contracts were just coming out for what you could do or could not do with the puppy you bought. The "top tier" breeders were the "mid tier" breeders then. Sharon's site didn't exist. They got their web sites up and met lots of people at shows that they go to every weekend. They meet people interested in their puppies by what they see in the ring. They advertise in Top Notch Toys magazine, Maltese Rx, Maltese Magazine and Show dog and other dog magazines. By putting their picture in the magazine they are advertising their dogs and themselves. They are hoping the judges see these and then what happens with people, we have a tendency to pick what we are familiar with. Having seen their picture in a well known magazine can influence a judge. Included in the advertisment is their contact information.
> Is there any way of advertising that won't upset some people? Everyone has their own opinion of what is right and wrong with advertising a living, lovable animal. If you don't advertise yourself, who is going to hear of you? Who is going to know you even have puppies for sale? We are not allowed to advertise our puppies for sale on any forums, but you can advertise that you have other things for sale. Some people are just out for the buck. Sometimes its hard to know the difference.
> ...


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