# Sticky  Breeders Health Guarantee



## Starsmom

First, I'm not sure if the Breeders section is the correct place for this, or if it should be placed in the Behavior/Health section, so mod's if it needs to be moved move it.  

We all have made reference to a breeder's health guarantee when guiding a newbie (or not so newbie) about adopting a fluff, but I have not seen one posted for an example, and thus this area seems to remain vague. Perhaps the SM members that have adopted from reputable breeders, as well as the breeders who are members here on SM would be open to posting their health guarantee with breeder information. It would also be beneficial to note if anyone - breeder and adoptor alike - has had health issues involving the guarantee, and how it was resolved. Thanks to all in advance.


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## MandyMc65

Both of my guarantees pretty much said the same things. I think the two most important are:

1. Health guarantee for any hereditary disease - I could "replace" the puppy
2. If I am unable to keep the puppy at any point in its life I must return it to the breeder or the breeder must approve the home I choose

They both also had something about a vet check within the first few days to a week done by my vet. If the vet found something I could return the puppy. It also states that the puppy is up to date on vaccinations, worming, etc... and only AKC limited registration will be given.

Most breeders do have at least part of their guarantee on their websites. Mine are filed away in their puppy folder


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## jmm

Don't have the contracts in front of me, but I believe mine are very similar to Mandy's. Of course, I have seen breeders go above and beyond their guarantee to do the right thing. In my book, the breeder's integrity is more of a guarantee than a replacement puppy.


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## Poppy's mommy

This is a great idea. I had a yorkie from an unethical breeder so I don't count,but I love to see the different health gurantees,especially the ones over a year.


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## mi_ku_5

Great idea for a post! I have question though. I've always thought very poorly of guarantees that only allow for the puppy to be returned. Who would honestly return a puppy? Aren't breeders that offer that as the only option, betting that you will just keep the sick pup and not bother them? I've only had two dogs and one's adopted, the other's from a BYB, so am I being unrealistic? I've heard from some breeders that while their contract states the puppy must be returned, they are willing to work w/ people who want to keep their pup. Is that usually the case?


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## binniebee

This is a very interesting thread! Thanks for starting it! I can't imagine EVER wanting to give a puppy back or to trade one in or whatever. But it is interesting what the contracts stipulate.

Cyndi


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## LJSquishy

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 31 2009, 09:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812230


> Great idea for a post! I have question though. I've always thought very poorly of guarantees that only allow for the puppy to be returned. Who would honestly return a puppy? Aren't breeders that offer that as the only option, betting that you will just keep the sick pup and not bother them? I've only had two dogs and one's adopted, the other's from a BYB, so am I being unrealistic? I've heard from some breeders that while their contract states the puppy must be returned, they are willing to work w/ people who want to keep their pup. Is that usually the case?[/B]


Well, I know it's hard to return a sick puppy for a replacement, but if I had to, I would. I had a Maltese before London & Preston came along and he passed away due to a liver shunt before the age of 2 (it was diagnosed before his 1st birthday) -- we did not want to return him so we kept him and gave him daily medicine / special diet for his shunt (he was too sick to undergo surgery). After losing him so early on, I can say that if something like that happened again, I would not hesitate to get a replacement puppy. But, I can see where you're coming from on not wanting to give up your well-loved pet.


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 31 2009, 09:39 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=811990


> Both of my guarantees pretty much said the same things. I think the two most important are:
> 
> 1. Health guarantee for any hereditary disease - I could "replace" the puppy
> 2. If I am unable to keep the puppy at any point in its life I must return it to the breeder or the breeder must approve the home I choose
> 
> They both also had something about a vet check within the first few days to a week done by my vet. If the vet found something I could return the puppy. It also states that the puppy is up to date on vaccinations, worming, etc... and only AKC limited registration will be given.
> 
> Most breeders do have at least part of their guarantee on their websites. Mine are filed away in their puppy folder [/B]


Since starting this thread I have taken the AMA Breeders List and randomly chosen breeders to look at their website for the guarantee. What I found if anything, is reference to a health guarantee, but not one breeder has put theirs out there to read in advance. Top tier Chrisman included. Since the health guarantees are not being published the issue remains a gray area. 


QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Jul 31 2009, 09:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812231


> This is a very interesting thread! Thanks for starting it! I can't imagine EVER wanting to give a puppy back or to trade one in or whatever. But it is interesting what the contracts stipulate.
> 
> This is why I'd like to see some published.
> 
> 
> Cyndi[/B]



QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Jul 31 2009, 10:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812243


> QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 31 2009, 09:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812230





> Great idea for a post! I have question though. I've always thought very poorly of guarantees that only allow for the puppy to be returned. Who would honestly return a puppy? Aren't breeders that offer that as the only option, betting that you will just keep the sick pup and not bother them? I've only had two dogs and one's adopted, the other's from a BYB, so am I being unrealistic? I've heard from some breeders that while their contract states the puppy must be returned, they are willing to work w/ people who want to keep their pup. Is that usually the case?[/B]


Well, I know it's hard to return a sick puppy for a replacement, but if I had to, I would. I had a Maltese before London & Preston came along and he passed away due to a liver shunt before the age of 2 (it was diagnosed before his 1st birthday) -- we did not want to return him so we kept him and gave him daily medicine / special diet for his shunt (he was too sick to undergo surgery). After losing him so early on, I can say that if something like that happened again, I would not hesitate to get a replacement puppy. But, I can see where you're coming from on not wanting to give up your well-loved pet.
[/B][/QUOTE]

At the very least, the breeder should know there is an issue with that particular line so it cannot be repeated. Again, I'd like to be able to read the different health guarantees and see what/how each breeder stipulates the action to be taken on health issues. 

If anyone knows of a breeder's website that has published the heath guarantee in full please share, or publish the health guarantee you received from your breeder.


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## Ladysmom

Vanitysmom/Foxstone has her contract posted on her website. :thmbup: 

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/petcontract.htm


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Aug 1 2009, 08:27 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812364


> Vanitysmom/Foxstone has her contract posted on her website. :thmbup:
> 
> http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/petcontract.htm[/B]



Thanks Marj - we can always count on you to find and post the obscure!  Now a breeder with a guarantee published with 5 yrs on debilitating health issues is someone I would consider a pup from. Let us see some more for comparison. :thmbup:


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## CeeCee's Mom

Wow.....a 5 yr guarantee on health debilitating issues is unheard of.....that is wonderful!!!! Never heard of that. VanitysMom/Foxstone must stand behind her maltese~~~~


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## k/c mom

Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."


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## theboyz

Most of you know that I try to deal with ByB's and Puppy Mills. I send them all kinds of material as they won't talk to me on the phone!!! One of the things that I show them is this contract. My big problem with contracts is that I COULD NOT give my puppy back to the breeder as I would love it so much. This breeder gives a replacement and you can keep the original pup.
Most BYB's are out for a quick buck and just shiver at that statement. I send this to them and underline those words.

http://clabecmaltese.com/OurContract.html


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## Poppy's mommy

That's a good contract,because it really hurts to give your puppy back. I also like the 5 year health guarantee. I think Eva of Unforgettable Maltese has a 4 year. I am on my phone so can't post links. : (


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432


> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.


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## jmm

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 04:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469


> Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality".
> So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect?
> 
> I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.[/B]


That would be pet vs. show or perhaps of a certain attitude/temperament if you are doing performance or therapy work.


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## jmm

Okay, I pulled out some contracts I've signed over the years. All pretty similar. 

Usually 72 hour guarantee for any health problem (in some cases for any reason at all) full refund with return of pup (pup should be in same condition as when received) or replacement. 

1 year or so guarantee for health or congenital problems or genetic conditions - usually replacement offered. 

Having dealt with other breeds, that seems pretty standard, usually 1-2 year guarantee. 

However, I would like to say that the breeder's integrity is worth more than the contract. I have had breeders, where the contract requires them to do nothing, go above and beyond when a problem was encountered. I'd rather have a super simple contract and a breeder I trust to do the right thing regardless.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doesn't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812479


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doens't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, yes, I realize that. However, if there are congenital defects, and I'm assuming from the same breeding/pedigree program, then who's to say. 

As the breeder may not be testing, so you are getting yet, another pup with life-threatening issues down the road. I'm certainly not talking about "coats".

I had no idea, per the contract, "quality" meant pedigree/coat. I was focused on health/testing/ and a _healthy pedigree.

_And yep, you're right. It would be ridiculous to pass on, yet another dog, with the same defects, from the same line. Nope, that wouldn't happen, now would it?


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812549


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812479





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doens't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, yes, I realize that. However, if there are congenital defects, and I'm assuming from the same breeding/pedigree program, then who's to say. 

As the breeder may not be testing, so you are getting yet, another pup with life-threatening issues down the road. I'm certainly not talking about "coats".

I had no idea, per the contract, "quality" meant pedigree/coat. I was focused on health/testing/ and a _healthy pedigree.

_And yep, you're right. It would be ridiculous to pass on, yet another dog, with the same defects, from the same line. Nope, that wouldn't happen, now would it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?


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## jmm

Well, again, the difference between a good breeder and one who simply produces pups. And yes, there are some show breeders who produce pups solely to sell. *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.* You could have a 10 year guarantee but its worthless if the breeder does not stand behind it. And to be 100% honest, I want a healthy dog from a healthy pedigree, not a 10 year guarantee. Why would you take a replacement if you realize you had purchased from a breeder that is not concerned for the health of their lines? I've had dogs with health problems, from outright genetic to just random to unfortunate congenital issues that have nothing to do with the quality of the breeding. The written contract has done NOTHING. The fact that in most of the cases the dogs were from excellent breeders meant my breeder cared and did the ethically right thing regardless of the time of the contract running out or not covering the issue. 

*A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.*


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812550


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812549





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812479





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doens't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, yes, I realize that. However, if there are congenital defects, and I'm assuming from the same breeding/pedigree program, then who's to say. 

As the breeder may not be testing, so you are getting yet, another pup with life-threatening issues down the road. I'm certainly not talking about "coats".

I had no idea, per the contract, "quality" meant pedigree/coat. I was focused on health/testing/ and a _healthy pedigree.

_And yep, you're right. It would be ridiculous to pass on, yet another dog, with the same defects, from the same line. Nope, that wouldn't happen, now would it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh goodness, NO. I'm not speaking of Rhapsody. Wasn't even aware they were an issue. Just speaking in general.
I haven't been on much, so if this thread was directed at Rhapsody, I'm out. As I said, just speaking in general.

I don't have a clue about Rhapsody. I'm actually wondering (to myself) where that came from.
I thought this thread was about Breeder's Health Guarantee. "Any" Breeder, not Rhapsody. What have I missed?
I don't even see, within the thread, where a breeder is named. 

I'll move on now. 

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 1 2009, 10:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812569


> Well, again, the difference between a good breeder and one who simply produces pups. And yes, there are some show breeders who produce pups solely to sell. *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.* You could have a 10 year guarantee but its worthless if the breeder does not stand behind it. And to be 100% honest, I want a healthy dog from a healthy pedigree, not a 10 year guarantee. Why would you take a replacement if you realize you had purchased from a breeder that is not concerned for the health of their lines? I've had dogs with health problems, from outright genetic to just random to unfortunate congenital issues that have nothing to do with the quality of the breeding. The written contract has done NOTHING. The fact that in most of the cases the dogs were from excellent breeders meant my breeder cared and did the ethically right thing regardless of the time of the contract running out or not covering the issue.
> 
> *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.*[/B]


Yup, you are right on the money. "A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it". Very true.


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## godiva goddess

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 1 2009, 11:00 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812357


> Since starting this thread I have taken the AMA Breeders List and randomly chosen breeders to look at their website for the guarantee. What I found if anything, is reference to a health guarantee, but not one breeder has put theirs out there to read in advance. Top tier Chrisman included. Since the health guarantees are not being published the issue remains a gray area.[/B]




As a proud and beyond satisfied Chrisman Maltese mommy, I can tell you that Chrisman does offer a health guarantee for their dogs. It is very similar to what has been posted here thus far. Fortunately, I did not even need to think about that b/c Mia is very healthy. I thank Chrisman for that blessing.

I dont think Chrisman, nor any other top breeders, need to post the details of their health guarantee on the world wide web. If you are interested about the details, then you (or any other sincere purchaser) will naturally learn about the specifics of their health guarantee when you speak to them about buying their dog. Contact the breeder directly, for that is research. Health guarantee is something a purchaser should discuss while thinking/researching about whether to buy from that specific breeder. Whether or not the breeder chooses to post it on the web, however, is his/her personal choice. 

I think someone asked before why Chrisman doesnt update pics of their pups before..well, there are other top breeders who do not even post ANY pics of pups to begin with. Again, that is the breeder's personal choice and discretion. If people are interested in buying, they can contact the breeder directly. Same logic applies. 

After the contact, if you are not satisfied, you are more than welcome to end the discussions and move on. 

In addition, I agree w/* JMM* that a guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 1 2009, 11:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812595


> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 1 2009, 11:00 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812357





> Since starting this thread I have taken the AMA Breeders List and randomly chosen breeders to look at their website for the guarantee. What I found if anything, is reference to a health guarantee, but not one breeder has put theirs out there to read in advance. Top tier Chrisman included. Since the health guarantees are not being published the issue remains a gray area.[/B]




As a proud and beyond satisfied Chrisman Maltese mommy, I can tell you that Chrisman does offer a health guarantee for their dogs. It is very similar to what has been posted here thus far. Fortunately, I did not even need to think about that b/c Mia is very healthy. I thank Chrisman for that blessing.

I dont think Chrisman, nor any other top breeders, need to post the details of their health guarantee on the world wide web. If you are interested about the details, then you (or any other sincere purchaser) will naturally learn about the specifics of their health guarantee when you speak to them about buying their dog. Contact the breeder directly, for that is research. Health guarantee is something a purchaser should discuss while thinking/researching about whether to buy from that specific breeder. Whether or not the breeder chooses to post it on the web, however, is his/her personal choice. 

I think someone asked before why Chrisman doesnt update pics of their pups before..well, there are other top breeders who do not even post ANY pics of pups to begin with. Again, that is the breeder's personal choice and discretion. If people are interested in buying, they can contact the breeder directly. Same logic applies. 

After the contact, if you are not satisfied, you are more than welcome to end the discussions and move on. 

In addition, I agree w/* JMM* that a guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Alice, have you ever seen this case? You'll love it!

http://www.animallaw.info/cases/causny7misc3d1018A.htm


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 10:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812589


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812550





> Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?[/B]


Oh goodness, NO. I'm not speaking of Rhapsody. Wasn't even aware they were an issue. Just speaking in general.
I haven't been on much, so if this thread was directed at Rhapsody, I'm out. As I said, just speaking in general.

I don't have a clue about Rhapsody. I'm actually wondering (to myself) where that came from.
I thought this thread was about Breeder's Health Guarantee. "Any" Breeder, not Rhapsody. What have I missed?
I don't even see, within the thread, where a breeder is named. 

I'll move on now. 

[/B][/QUOTE]

Deb, see post #15. You appeared to be directing your remarks to my post and the quote from Rhapsody's contract.


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 11:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812601


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 10:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812589





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812550





> Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?[/B]


Oh goodness, NO. I'm not speaking of Rhapsody. Wasn't even aware they were an issue. Just speaking in general.
I haven't been on much, so if this thread was directed at Rhapsody, I'm out. As I said, just speaking in general.

I don't have a clue about Rhapsody. I'm actually wondering (to myself) where that came from.
I thought this thread was about Breeder's Health Guarantee. "Any" Breeder, not Rhapsody. What have I missed?
I don't even see, within the thread, where a breeder is named. 

I'll move on now. 

[/B][/QUOTE]

Deb, see post #15. You appeared to be directing your remarks to my post and the quote from Rhapsody's contract.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Sher, I did quote your thread, yet did not direct my "emotions" at any particular breeder. I was simply responding 
to your reponse. Had nothing to do with ANY breeder. Nor, any contracts, as I didn't pull up any contracts. So I don't 
know Rhaposody's contract. LOL

I love ya, Sher. I am all for "reputable" breeders. Actually wanted to be one myself, at a certain time in my life.

Yep, that was before I met my first rescue :wub: Oh yes, that blew my plans all to he**. :HistericalSmiley: 

Life is good. We do the best we can. I pray breeders are doing the same. I know most are, and I thank them.


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## mi_ku_5

Deb, I understood what you meant and almost asked the same thing myself. What good does it do to get a "replacement pup" from the same bloodline or even the same parent(s) as the "defective" puppy you return"? How do you know the new pup won't have the same issues at some point?

I don't understand that court case at all, there is no such thing as a "teacup" Maltese and who says a "teacup" is under 5 pounds? Since the standard says 4-6 is prefered, how could 5lbs possible be considered teacup? Then there's the price, where did they come up with $1500 being the "standard cost" for a Maltese, especially a female? Unless the buyer had contract stating, the pup was guaranteed to be less than 5lbs, they shouldn't have won their case. The plaintiff was rewarded for being uniformed and superficial.


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## 08chrissy08

I don't really think it means a puppy of the same parantage but rather another puppy from the same breeder of similar bloodlines. Just simply meaning a replacement puppy that also has champion parents or something along that line. Rhapsody has a great reputation from what I have heard so I don't see them replacing a sick puppy with another sick puppy. However if I were to see that same line on the contract from a questionable breeder, I would run the other way.


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## aggiemom99

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812589


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812550





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812549





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812479





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doens't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, yes, I realize that. However, if there are congenital defects, and I'm assuming from the same breeding/pedigree program, then who's to say. 

As the breeder may not be testing, so you are getting yet, another pup with life-threatening issues down the road. I'm certainly not talking about "coats".

I had no idea, per the contract, "quality" meant pedigree/coat. I was focused on health/testing/ and a _healthy pedigree.

_And yep, you're right. It would be ridiculous to pass on, yet another dog, with the same defects, from the same line. Nope, that wouldn't happen, now would it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh goodness, NO. I'm not speaking of Rhapsody. Wasn't even aware they were an issue. Just speaking in general.
I haven't been on much, so if this thread was directed at Rhapsody, I'm out. As I said, just speaking in general.

I don't have a clue about Rhapsody. I'm actually wondering (to myself) where that came from.
I thought this thread was about Breeder's Health Guarantee. "Any" Breeder, not Rhapsody. What have I missed?
I don't even see, within the thread, where a breeder is named. 

I'll move on now. 

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 1 2009, 10:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812569


> Well, again, the difference between a good breeder and one who simply produces pups. And yes, there are some show breeders who produce pups solely to sell. *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.* You could have a 10 year guarantee but its worthless if the breeder does not stand behind it. And to be 100% honest, I want a healthy dog from a healthy pedigree, not a 10 year guarantee. Why would you take a replacement if you realize you had purchased from a breeder that is not concerned for the health of their lines? I've had dogs with health problems, from outright genetic to just random to unfortunate congenital issues that have nothing to do with the quality of the breeding. The written contract has done NOTHING. The fact that in most of the cases the dogs were from excellent breeders meant my breeder cared and did the ethically right thing regardless of the time of the contract running out or not covering the issue.
> 
> *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.*[/B]


Yup, you are right on the money. "A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it". Very true.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have a Rhapsody baby too and my other fluff has Rhapsody lines. When Lexie was sick last year (which turned out primarily to be a UTI) Tonia spoke to me on the phone and was very concerned and caring (even though Lexie came from her assistant). She knows her lines and breeds not only for show but health as well. I cannot remember which year it was 2008 or 2007( or perhaps both), she was on the AMA health committee. I know there are other reputable breeders out there and if looking at pedigrees a lot of them has Rhapsody lines. She also does testing.

IMO Rhapsody is one of the most ethical and reputable breeders there is in the maltese world.


----------



## Ladysmom

QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Aug 2 2009, 05:49 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812655


> I don't understand that court case at all, there is no such thing as a "teacup" Maltese and who says a "teacup" is under 5 pounds? Since the standard says 4-6 is prefered, how could 5lbs possible be considered teacup? Then there's the price, where did they come up with $1500 being the "standard cost" for a Maltese, especially a female? Unless the buyer had contract stating, the pup was guaranteed to be less than 5lbs, they shouldn't have won their case. The plaintiff was rewarded for being uniformed and superficial.[/B]


If you go back and reread the case carefully, you will see that American Kennels normally charged $1,500 for a Maltese, but charged $1,000 more for Miss Muffet because she wasn't supposed to get over five pounds. The Plaintiff was awarded the difference since she grew to eight pounds.

The plaintiff may have been uninformed and perhaps superficial, but the Court found the kennel should not have charged her more for the puppy since you can't guarantee adult weight. If you look at a lot of the ads on the internet, they often charge more for "tinies" and "teacups". That's why it's such a good case, besides being so much fun to read, as it holds breeders and brokers accountable for false and misleading claims.


----------



## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 1 2009, 09:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812569


> Well, again, the difference between a good breeder and one who simply produces pups. And yes, there are some show breeders who produce pups solely to sell. *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.* You could have a 10 year guarantee but its worthless if the breeder does not stand behind it. And to be 100% honest, I want a healthy dog from a healthy pedigree, not a 10 year guarantee. Why would you take a replacement if you realize you had purchased from a breeder that is not concerned for the health of their lines? I've had dogs with health problems, from outright genetic to just random to unfortunate congenital issues that have nothing to do with the quality of the breeding. The written contract has done NOTHING. The fact that in most of the cases the dogs were from excellent breeders meant my breeder cared and did the ethically right thing regardless of the time of the contract running out or not covering the issue.
> 
> *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.*[/B]



I so hope that no one is questioning my ethics here since it was my contract that was put on display. :shocked: I have become very sensitive on this forum after being attacked several times because of my personal opinions and beliefs or that of reputable breeders in general. I seem to always have a need to defend my opinions and beliefs on this forum.  

That being said, I will say that I have had a 5 year health guarantee since I started, 20 years ago. My "reasoning" behind this, is that many genetic problems arise after the 2 to 3 year old mark. 20 years ago when i started there was not the tests that are available now. However, my first mentor suggested a breeding for me to do that could potentially give me an idea of the health behind my original dogs. It had the potential to bring out all the good, all the bad, or a little of both. There were three puppies. Two died of old age and one died of the dog show crud. I did other research as I added other lines to my dogs. My whole goal as a breeder, has been to produce structurally sound healthy dogs, because in my own opinion, you have to have structural soundness, or you will not even have a good pet. How can you have a happy pet if every time it takes a step, it's knees pop out of joint or it is in pain all the time. I also wanted healthy because how can you have a happy pet if the dog is not healthy enough to do such things as the Maltese 200 mile an hour run through the house or the back yard. These were my goals because most of my original dogs stayed with me, as my pets, until they crossed the bridge. I currently still have Dreamers and Aimee (a Ta-Jon dog) who are considered my last two originals. They are both very old. My philosophy is that they are showdogs for a very short time period in their lives......then they are my pets!! I have lost several of my dogs over the last few years, but they were all over 11 years of age and older. One little guy, Caesar, died at 7 1/2 years old but he was dropped on his head onto a marble floor by the owner's young grandchild. I also have a very strict personal policy against placing my dogs into households with young children!!

Through the years I have thought several times about changing the 5 years to 3 years to be more in line with everyone else, but have not ever felt is was a big issue because it is just a number.......I care about the dogs I have produced throughout their lifetime. The most important part of my contract, *to me*, is the lifetime return policy. I have actually had one old girl returned to me after she acquired congestive heart failure due to her diet...............she was very "fat". One of Sparkle's favorite daily treats was Vienna Sausages :shocked: The owner could not contend with the health issues, so Sparkle came back home to me. She had loved being "first alert" at the dog shows when she was young and she loved it just as much when she was old. The vet and I did everything we could for her but she only lived another 6 weeks. 

We, as breeders, do not breed these babies for them to just be thrown away in old life for any reason, which is why many of us have this return policy throughout the dogs life.

I am not saying that the health part of the guarantees are not important.........they are *very* important, however, Jaime, you are correct that the contracts are only as good as the people signing them. Most, if not all, of the breeders whom I have worked with and acquired dogs from through the years have had the same philosophy as I have which is probably why I have worked with them. My mentors were very important to me in learning what was right, what was wrong, and what was gray area. 

My pet puppy contract is actually a condensed, compiled collection of several of my trusted breeder friend's contracts.


----------



## aggiemom99

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 2 2009, 12:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812757


> I so hope that no one is questioning my ethics here since it was my contract that was put on display. :shocked: I have become very sensitive on this forum after being attacked several times because of my personal opinions and beliefs or that of reputable breeders in general. I seem to always have a need to defend my opinions and beliefs on this forum.
> 
> That being said, I will say that I have had a 5 year health guarantee since I started, 20 years ago. My "reasoning" behind this, is that many genetic problems arise after the 2 to 3 year old mark. 20 years ago when i started there was not the tests that are available now. However, my first mentor suggested a breeding for me to do that could potentially give me an idea of the health behind my original dogs. It had the potential to bring out all the good, all the bad, or a little of both. There were three puppies. Two died of old age and one died of the dog show crud. I did other research as I added other lines to my dogs. My whole goal as a breeder, has been to produce structurally sound healthy dogs, because in my own opinion, you have to have structural soundness, or you will not even have a good pet. How can you have a happy pet if every time it takes a step, it's knees pop out of joint or it is in pain all the time. I also wanted healthy because how can you have a happy pet if the dog is not healthy enough to do such things as the Maltese 200 mile an hour run through the house or the back yard. These were my goals because most of my original dogs stayed with me, as my pets, until they crossed the bridge. I currently still have Dreamers and Aimee (a Ta-Jon dog) who are considered my last two originals. They are both very old. My philosophy is that they are showdogs for a very short time period in their lives......then they are my pets!! I have lost several of my dogs over the last few years, but they were all over 11 years of age and older. One little guy, Caesar, died at 7 1/2 years old but he was dropped on his head onto a marble floor by the owner's young grandchild. I also have a very strict personal policy against placing my dogs into households with young children!!
> 
> Through the years I have thought several times about changing the 5 years to 3 years to be more in line with everyone else, but have not ever felt is was a big issue because it is just a number.......I care about the dogs I have produced throughout their lifetime. The most important part of my contract, *to me*, is the lifetime return policy. I have actually had one old girl returned to me after she acquired congestive heart failure due to her diet...............she was very "fat". One of Sparkle's favorite daily treats was Vienna Sausages :shocked: The owner could not contend with the health issues, so Sparkle came back home to me. She had loved being "first alert" at the dog shows when she was young and she loved it just as much when she was old. The vet and I did everything we could for her but she only lived another 6 weeks.
> 
> We, as breeders, do not breed these babies for them to just be thrown away in old life for any reason, which is why many of us have this return policy throughout the dogs life.
> 
> I am not saying that the health part of the guarantees are not important.........they are *very* important, however, Jaime, you are correct that the contracts are only as good as the people signing them. Most, if not all, of the breeders whom I have worked with and acquired dogs from through the years have had the same philosophy as I have which is probably why I have worked with them. My mentors were very important to me in learning what was right, what was wrong, and what was gray area.
> 
> My pet puppy contract is actually a condensed, compiled collection of several of my trusted breeder friend's contracts.[/B]


 :goodpost: *Thanks so much for your wonderful post*. I have been to your website many times and found an abundance of information.


----------



## Cosy

You know most breeders do not man their own websites (if they have one) and to update it with revised 
puppy pics, adjusted champion pages and updated copies of contracts (which may vary according to the
dog and why it is being purchased) can get very expensive and time consuming. 

Personally, I don't have a problem with asking these types of questions to breeders I might take an 
interest in as far as buying a pup from them. It is pretty difficult to cover all questions about a 
particular dog on a web page so why not call and ask those contract questions too?

I think we expect too much on the net when we can still pick up a phone and get personal service
or use email to begin the communication.


----------



## roxybaby22

QUOTE (Cosy @ Aug 2 2009, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812768


> You know most breeders do not man their own websites (if they have one) and to update it with revised
> puppy pics, adjusted champion pages and updated copies of contracts (which may vary according to the
> dog and why it is being purchased) can get very expensive and time consuming.
> 
> Personally, I don't have a problem with asking these types of questions to breeders I might take an
> interest in as far as buying a pup from them. It is pretty difficult to cover all questions about a
> particular dog on a web page so why not call and ask those contract questions too?
> 
> *I think we expect too much on the net when we can still pick up a phone and get personal service
> or use email to begin the communication.*[/B]


I agree, even though it is nice to have info that's easily accessible, I have no problem contacting a breeder for more. I also find that when you contact a breeder, whether by phone or email, you get to know them a little better just by the tone of their voice or replies, which is a plus!


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (aggiemom99 @ Aug 2 2009, 07:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812667


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812589





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812550





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812549





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812479





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doens't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, yes, I realize that. However, if there are congenital defects, and I'm assuming from the same breeding/pedigree program, then who's to say. 

As the breeder may not be testing, so you are getting yet, another pup with life-threatening issues down the road. I'm certainly not talking about "coats".

I had no idea, per the contract, "quality" meant pedigree/coat. I was focused on health/testing/ and a _healthy pedigree.

_And yep, you're right. It would be ridiculous to pass on, yet another dog, with the same defects, from the same line. Nope, that wouldn't happen, now would it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh goodness, NO. I'm not speaking of Rhapsody. Wasn't even aware they were an issue. Just speaking in general.
I haven't been on much, so if this thread was directed at Rhapsody, I'm out. As I said, just speaking in general.

I don't have a clue about Rhapsody. I'm actually wondering (to myself) where that came from.
I thought this thread was about Breeder's Health Guarantee. "Any" Breeder, not Rhapsody. What have I missed?
I don't even see, within the thread, where a breeder is named. 

I'll move on now. 

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 1 2009, 10:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812569


> Well, again, the difference between a good breeder and one who simply produces pups. And yes, there are some show breeders who produce pups solely to sell. *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.* You could have a 10 year guarantee but its worthless if the breeder does not stand behind it. And to be 100% honest, I want a healthy dog from a healthy pedigree, not a 10 year guarantee. Why would you take a replacement if you realize you had purchased from a breeder that is not concerned for the health of their lines? I've had dogs with health problems, from outright genetic to just random to unfortunate congenital issues that have nothing to do with the quality of the breeding. The written contract has done NOTHING. The fact that in most of the cases the dogs were from excellent breeders meant my breeder cared and did the ethically right thing regardless of the time of the contract running out or not covering the issue.
> 
> *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.*[/B]


Yup, you are right on the money. "A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it". Very true.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have a Rhapsody baby too and my other fluff has Rhapsody lines. When Lexie was sick last year (which turned out primarily to be a UTI) Tonia spoke to me on the phone and was very concerned and caring (even though Lexie came from her assistant). She knows her lines and breeds not only for show but health as well. I cannot remember which year it was 2008 or 2007( or perhaps both), she was on the AMA health committee. I know there are other reputable breeders out there and if looking at pedigrees a lot of them has Rhapsody lines. She also does testing.

IMO Rhapsody is one of the most ethical and reputable breeders there is in the maltese world.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Please, do not misunderstand me. I was speaking in general. I do not know Rhapsody. I was not referring to them. 

I simply quoted Sher, to point out my thoughts on ANY breeder's contract. Her's just happened to mention her breeder's contract,
which is the norm. 

We have many excellent breeders out there. We also have a few "shady" ones, along with the BYB's, and mills.

I'm a bit pissy, at the moment, over all the dogs in our shelters. I'm pissed at the mills, and BYB's. I'm pissed at the
contracts thru pet stores, and BYB's. 

I took this thread, as discussing "contracts" thru breeders. Well, to me it's anyone who breeds. I didn't realize we were only
discussing show breeders.


----------



## Cosy

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 2 2009, 03:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812783


> QUOTE (aggiemom99 @ Aug 2 2009, 07:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812667





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812589





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812550





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812549





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812479





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doens't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, yes, I realize that. However, if there are congenital defects, and I'm assuming from the same breeding/pedigree program, then who's to say. 

As the breeder may not be testing, so you are getting yet, another pup with life-threatening issues down the road. I'm certainly not talking about "coats".

I had no idea, per the contract, "quality" meant pedigree/coat. I was focused on health/testing/ and a _healthy pedigree.

_And yep, you're right. It would be ridiculous to pass on, yet another dog, with the same defects, from the same line. Nope, that wouldn't happen, now would it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh goodness, NO. I'm not speaking of Rhapsody. Wasn't even aware they were an issue. Just speaking in general.
I haven't been on much, so if this thread was directed at Rhapsody, I'm out. As I said, just speaking in general.

I don't have a clue about Rhapsody. I'm actually wondering (to myself) where that came from.
I thought this thread was about Breeder's Health Guarantee. "Any" Breeder, not Rhapsody. What have I missed?
I don't even see, within the thread, where a breeder is named. 

I'll move on now. 

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 1 2009, 10:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812569


> Well, again, the difference between a good breeder and one who simply produces pups. And yes, there are some show breeders who produce pups solely to sell. *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.* You could have a 10 year guarantee but its worthless if the breeder does not stand behind it. And to be 100% honest, I want a healthy dog from a healthy pedigree, not a 10 year guarantee. Why would you take a replacement if you realize you had purchased from a breeder that is not concerned for the health of their lines? I've had dogs with health problems, from outright genetic to just random to unfortunate congenital issues that have nothing to do with the quality of the breeding. The written contract has done NOTHING. The fact that in most of the cases the dogs were from excellent breeders meant my breeder cared and did the ethically right thing regardless of the time of the contract running out or not covering the issue.
> 
> *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.*[/B]


Yup, you are right on the money. "A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it". Very true.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have a Rhapsody baby too and my other fluff has Rhapsody lines. When Lexie was sick last year (which turned out primarily to be a UTI) Tonia spoke to me on the phone and was very concerned and caring (even though Lexie came from her assistant). She knows her lines and breeds not only for show but health as well. I cannot remember which year it was 2008 or 2007( or perhaps both), she was on the AMA health committee. I know there are other reputable breeders out there and if looking at pedigrees a lot of them has Rhapsody lines. She also does testing.

IMO Rhapsody is one of the most ethical and reputable breeders there is in the maltese world.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Please, do not misunderstand me. I was speaking in general. I do not know Rhapsody. I was not referring to them. 

I simply quoted Sher, to point out my thoughts on ANY breeder's contract. Her's just happened to mention her breeder's contract,
which is the norm. 

We have many excellent breeders out there. We also have a few "shady" ones, along with the BYB's, and mills.

I'm a bit pissy, at the moment, over all the dogs in our shelters. I'm pissed at the mills, and BYB's. I'm pissed at the
contracts thru pet stores, and BYB's. 

I took this thread, as discussing "contracts" thru breeders. Well, to me it's anyone who breeds. I didn't realize we were only
discussing show breeders.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I get where you're coming from, Deb. Unfortunately, most BYB's and mills who DO give contracts usually find a way not 
to honor them or have a loops hole or two. I think that's why it's basically turned to show breeders....KWIM?


----------



## MaryH

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 2 2009, 01:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812757


> I so hope that no one is questioning my ethics here since it was my contract that was put on display ... My pet puppy contract is actually a condensed, compiled collection of several of my trusted breeder friend's contracts.[/B]


GREAT POST, SHARON!!

QUOTE


> We have many excellent breeders out there. We also have a few "shady" ones, along with the BYB's, and mills.[/B]


So true, Deb. Jackie's post is so on target where she said that "a guarantee is only as good as the person behind it." Whether is a miller, backyard breeder, hobby breeder, show breeder or any other kind of breeder, a good person is a good person and a scam artist is a scam artist.

QUOTE


> I don't understand that court case at all, there is no such thing as a "teacup" Maltese and who says a "teacup" is under 5 pounds? Since the standard says 4-6 is prefered, how could 5lbs possible be considered teacup? Then there's the price, where did they come up with $1500 being the "standard cost" for a Maltese, especially a female? Unless the buyer had contract stating, the pup was guaranteed to be less than 5lbs, they shouldn't have won their case. The plaintiff was rewarded for being uniformed and superficial.[/B]


The seller marketed a dog as a teacup, despite the fact that there is no such thing, and added a $1,000 premium to the price. No doubt the seller represented that teacup means "teeny weeny". The dog grew to be beyond the represented "teeny weeny" size. I applaud the judge who decided this case. He punished the seller for deceptive advertising by ordering that she return the $1,000 premium. By the same token, the buyer did not get all that she was looking for. She paid $1,500 for a dog and that's exactly what she got. She paid an additional $1,000 for a teacup and got that portion of the price refunded. There is no law in the country that says it's illegal to be "uniformed and superficial."

QUOTE


> I think we expect too much on the net when we can still pick up a phone and get personal service
> or use email to begin the communication.[/B]


So true, Brit. Knowing just how easy it is to manipulate pictures and create a public persona so very different from reality it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who will buy a living breathing life-long commitment based on pictures and text on a website. I wonder how many people would buy a diamond ring or a car that way?

MaryH


----------



## Vanitysmom

My question to you all is this..................Do you truly expect unethical breeders to honor their contracts?


----------



## aggiemom99

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 2 2009, 06:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812846


> My question to you all is this..................Do you truly expect unethical breeders to honor their contracts?[/B]


NO... the byb and puppymills would have already forgotten your name! Thanks Sharon....


----------



## 08chrissy08

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 2 2009, 04:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812846


> My question to you all is this..................Do you truly expect unethical breeders to honor their contracts?[/B]


Nope. While I do like to have the contract, it is only as good as the person you've signed it with. Doing your research is important no matter what the contract says. Maybe the contract with an unethical breeder can give you legal recourse, but even that is iffy. There are so many loopholes. A truly ethical breeder will do the things in the contract out of good character, not because of a piece of paper.


----------



## sophie

QUOTE (08chrissy08 @ Aug 2 2009, 08:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812880


> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 2 2009, 04:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812846





> My question to you all is this..................Do you truly expect unethical breeders to honor their contracts?[/B]


Nope. While I do like to have the contract, it is only as good as the person you've signed it with. Doing your research is important no matter what the contract says. Maybe the contract with an unethical breeder can give you legal recourse, but even that is iffy. There are so many loopholes. A truly ethical breeder will do the things in the contract out of good character, not because of a piece of paper.
[/B][/QUOTE]


:goodpost:


----------



## Starsmom

I started this thread hoping we could get to look at, and compare the various health guarantees from reputable breeders either by the breeders themselves posting theirs or by the many, many satisfied fluff butt parents. In doing so it could be used as a valuable tool as a jumping off point in addition to the obligatory phoning, and emails to find that perfect match between, breeder, pup, and new parent. It was in no way meant to be a pissing contest, or have any one breeder singled out. I regret Rhapsody and Vanitysmom felt the need to defend themselves. :sorry: Please accept my apology. 

In the initial post I stated: Perhaps the SM members that have adopted from *reputable breeders*, as well as the breeders who are members here on SM would be open to posting their health guarantee with breeder information. Yes BYB's, and the millers are breeders, but are far from reputable. Therefore, any contract they may offer isn't worth the paper it's written on and would have no value to anyone here looking for reputable breeder information.

So if this thread hasn't gotten thrown off so far in the ditch could we possibly get :back2topic: , and see more health guarantees posted for comparison? :huh:


----------



## Poppy's mommy

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 2 2009, 06:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812846


> My question to you all is this..................Do you truly expect unethical breeders to honor their contracts?[/B]


Nope but with my breeder I didn't find out she was unethical until everything start coming out about her.


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 2 2009, 11:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812942


> I started this thread hoping we could get to look at, and compare the various health guarantees from reputable breeders either by the breeders themselves posting theirs or by the many, many satisfied fluff butt parents. In doing so it could be used as a valuable tool as a jumping off point in addition to the obligatory phoning, and emails to find that perfect match between, breeder, pup, and new parent. It was in no way meant to be a pissing contest, or have any one breeder singled out. I regret Rhapsody and Vanitysmom felt the need to defend themselves. :sorry: Please accept my apology.
> 
> In the initial post I stated: Perhaps the SM members that have adopted from *reputable breeders*, as well as the breeders who are members here on SM would be open to posting their health guarantee with breeder information. Yes BYB's, and the millers are breeders, but are far from reputable. Therefore, any contract they may offer isn't worth the paper it's written on and would have no value to anyone here looking for reputable breeder information.
> 
> So if this thread hasn't gotten thrown off so far in the ditch could we possibly get :back2topic: , and see more health guarantees posted for comparison? :huh:[/B]



No, it's not thrown into the ditch. You're right, and I was not paying attention. I've been in a hit, and miss, lately. :huh: 

So yep, back to topic. I am also curious of "reputable" breeder's contracts, and how they are followed out.


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## Lacie's Mom

when I was breeding Lhasas, I gave a lifetime health guarantee for genetic health conditions and would replace the dog or would pay the medical bills.


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Aug 3 2009, 05:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813176


> when I was breeding Lhasas, I gave a lifetime health guarantee for genetic health conditions and would replace the dog or would pay the medical bills.[/B]



Lynn, was there ever an occasion where your guarantee came into play, and if so how did you handle the defect within your bloodline?


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## myfairlacy

I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder whose guarantee offered only a replacement puppy. Most pet owners would never return the pet they love and then therefor receive no compensation. I think it's a horrible loophole. After talking to some reputable breeders and thinking about what I believe is the right thing to do I think the following guarantee is what an ethical breeder would have: In the event of a congenital/genetic health issue (this can be defined by specific issues if the breeder prefers), the breeder will pay for the vet bills UP TO the purchase price of the puppy, or if bills exceed the purchase price of the puppy, the breeder will refund that full purchase price. The breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back of course and if they choose could offer a replacement instead. But I feel very strongly in that the breeder should be responsible if a puppy they sell ends up with a congenital/genetic health issues and should pay the vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup (or refund that purchase price).


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## Lacie's Mom

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 3 2009, 07:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813221


> QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Aug 3 2009, 05:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813176





> when I was breeding Lhasas, I gave a lifetime health guarantee for genetic health conditions and would replace the dog or would pay the medical bills.[/B]



Lynn, was there ever an occasion where your guarantee came into play, and if so how did you handle the defect within your bloodline? 
[/B][/QUOTE]

First, I was very confident in my bloodlines, so it was an easy guarantee, but, had anything ever shown up, I would have wanted to know about it immediately as I had been breeding the same lines for years with no health problems. Had something shown up on a pet that I had sold or a retiree that I had placed, that would have meant that my "forever dogs" might also be affected.

There was an instance where I had sold 2 littermate sisters to someone in Scottsdale and at about 3 years of age, one of the girls passed away. She thought it was a heart attack. I wanted to know exactly what it was so I had the little one taken to my vet for a necropsy and also had the sister taken to my vet to be throughly checked out. Of course, I paid for all of the tests. In the end, my vet could not find a genetic cause for the heart attack -- maybe heat, maybe a scorpion, etc. etc. As a good will gesture, I did replace the little one that had passed away with a retiree. The owner did not really want another puppy at the time, and I didn't have a litter available. The surviving little girl was heartbroken and did not really perk up until she had another sister to play with. No health issues were found with her and she and the retiree both lived very healthy lives well into their mid-teens. I was almost as devasted as the owner as I had never had anything health related happen to any of my pets. And, unfortunately I was no longer living in the Phoenix area when this happened, so we had to work through every thing long distance.

At one time, I had a bitch that I had bought from another breeder (friend) in the midwest. I finished this little girl's championship and bred her once to one of my males. I did not like the bites on the litter and petted all of them out. The bitch went to live with a good friend in California that still has once of my retired champions. They were best friends at my house and the owner wanted her baby and her friend to be together, so after the one litter, I did place her with my retired champion. Anyway, at about age 9 1/2 or 10, it was found that this bitch has severe diabetis. The owner (who is a very close friend) gave her the best medical care, but I did contact all of the buyers of the litter that she had produced and had them test their furbabies at my expense. The disease had not been in my line, but I did breed the litter with her and one of my males and wanted to make certain that the litter was checked. None ever showed up with diabetis, but if they had, I would have paid for their care and/or replaced the furbutt. Luckily all of the furbutts had been sold with limited registrations and spay/neuter contracts, so I didn't have to continue worrying if this would eventually show up down the road in my line.

Ethically I wanted to stand behind the dogs I bred and sold. And for my own piece of mind I wanted to keep in contact with the owners and know that the furbutts were healthy, happy and well cared for. If you are secure with your line, you don't hesitate to give health guarantees, and if you truly want to "better the bred", you will stay in touch with buyers and make certain that no genetic health problems show up in the furbutts that you've produced. And, if something did show up, you would determine who the carrier was and would no longer bred that dam or sire. I also believe that if I chose to bring a litter into the world, it was my duty to stand by that puppy through his/her life. Just my opinion.

I have twice had dogs returned to me due to circumstances where the owner could no longer keep the furbutt. Both ended up living with me for the rest of their lives. One person was transferred overseas and couldn't take the dog with her and one had a death in the family that was tramatic and she felt she could no longer deal with caring for a pet.

I'm not necessarily advocating that all breeders provide LIFETIME health guarantees, but certainly that they provide a lengthy genetic health guarantee. And, if the breeder is truly out to better the breed, he/she would WANT to know if a dog that they produced showed up with a genetic health issue. This is not something like LPs which can be caused by accidents, but certainly liver stunts, etc.


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## Starsmom

You were an explementary breeder! :thumbsup: Does anyone know a Maltese breeder with the same confidence in their bloodline, and ethics as Lynn had with her Lhasa's? 

At this point there have been over 1200 views to this thread, but just 2 guarantees have been posted. Please share yours. It will be a valuable tool for anyone shopping for their fluff.


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## Poppy's mommy

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 3 2009, 08:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813266


> I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder whose guarantee offered only a replacement puppy. Most pet owners would never return the pet they love and then therefor receive no compensation. I think it's a horrible loophole. After talking to some reputable breeders and thinking about what I believe is the right thing to do I think the following guarantee is what an ethical breeder would have: In the event of a congenital/genetic health issue (this can be defined by specific issues if the breeder prefers), the breeder will pay for the vet bills UP TO the purchase price of the puppy, or if bills exceed the purchase price of the puppy, the breeder will refund that full purchase price. The breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back of course and if they choose could offer a replacement instead. But I feel very strongly in that the breeder should be responsible if a puppy they sell ends up with a congenital/genetic health issues and should pay the vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup (or refund that purchase price).[/B]


Exactly, I talked to a yorkie breeder about this loophole and she also agreed on it.


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 3 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813266


> I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder whose guarantee offered only a replacement puppy. Most pet owners would never return the pet they love and then therefor receive no compensation. I think it's a horrible loophole. After talking to some reputable breeders and thinking about what I believe is the right thing to do I think the following guarantee is what an ethical breeder would have: In the event of a congenital/genetic health issue (this can be defined by specific issues if the breeder prefers), the breeder will pay for the vet bills UP TO the purchase price of the puppy, or if bills exceed the purchase price of the puppy, the breeder will refund that full purchase price. The breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back of course and if they choose could offer a replacement instead. But I feel very strongly in that the breeder should be responsible if a puppy they sell ends up with a congenital/genetic health issues and should pay the vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup (or refund that purchase price).[/B]


I was not going to respond anymore to this thread but here goes anyway. 

I do not think that any reputable breeder who cares for their dogs would EVER rip a sick furbaby from the person it loves and is comfortable with, unless that person could not care for the sick dog and/or needed help. My opinion, of course! However, the clause is in the contracts for our protection, as well. There ARE unethical buyers out there also!!

Also, just playing devil's advocate here, what about the yearly vaccinations and the problems they cause.....................is the breeder responsible for those? What about the dog that is allowed to run the stairs and jump on and off of the furniture.................is the breeder responsible for the potential problems that can cause. Let's go one step further....................with all the recent bad dog food.....................is the breeder responsible for the liver damage that could potentially kill the dog......looked like liver problems. What about the damage from toxic chemicals...........I had a dog that had liver numbers out the roof after eating some grass treated with weed-n-feed. The first thing my vet said was "liver shunt" until he knew the whole story............it certainly had all of the signs of a liver shunt! Did you all know that Pine-Sol is toxic to dogs? Chocolate.......onions........raw potato skins, etc. etc.?

You all seem to advocate for an open book on the breeders part, which is fine....not going to happen, but it's fine that you would like that, but that open book would need to work both ways. The buyer has a huge responsibility also in the health and welfare of that puppy/dog. In puppies, the breeder only has that puppy for a very small amount of it's life. A breeder can only do so much to get that puppy going in the right direction so that it will be a happy, well adjusted, healthy puppy for the rest of it's life. Then it is up to the buyer to continue. 

Short story here: I actually placed the cutest puppy ever (click on Rissa here)......weighs under 4 pounds full grown, full of life. The buyer was not happy with her because the buyer kept comparing her to the buyer's previous chi's. She had this poor baby into the vet 11 times in 7 weeks for all kinds of different tests.....looking for something wrong. Then 4 days before the puppy turned 6 months old, the buyer had the puppy cut down to try to make her look like a chi. She contacted me 4 days later saying the puppy was not cuddly enough  I took the baby back and ended up placing her with another lady who adores Rissa for who she is. Point of the story here is that the lady WANTED something to be wrong with my puppy!!! :angry: 

Needless to say.....the buyers also need to take some responsibility in the upbringing and the welfare of the puppy. As breeders, we cannot control the environment the puppy is exposed to after the buyer has taken the dog. We can only hope the buyer has been honest with us and is as sensible, responsible, and informed as we felt they were when we *agreed* to let them have one of our dogs. 

Now I am not saying that there are not real genetic health issues that the breeders and the buyers need to be informed and concerned about............however I am saying that not all health/structural issues are genetic!!!


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## jmm

Excellent point Sharon, especially on environment and the knees! Another reason I do baseline labwork/bile acids and such on all my kids, meant for pet or show. I feel it is important for the breeder to know if there is a real problem they need to be concerned about in their lines. It is a privilege to own a well-bred dog from a good breeder. The least I can do in return is provide accurate feedback.


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## godiva goddess

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 5 2009, 10:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813840


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 3 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813266





> I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder whose guarantee offered only a replacement puppy. Most pet owners would never return the pet they love and then therefor receive no compensation. I think it's a horrible loophole. After talking to some reputable breeders and thinking about what I believe is the right thing to do I think the following guarantee is what an ethical breeder would have: In the event of a congenital/genetic health issue (this can be defined by specific issues if the breeder prefers), the breeder will pay for the vet bills UP TO the purchase price of the puppy, or if bills exceed the purchase price of the puppy, the breeder will refund that full purchase price. The breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back of course and if they choose could offer a replacement instead. But I feel very strongly in that the breeder should be responsible if a puppy they sell ends up with a congenital/genetic health issues and should pay the vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup (or refund that purchase price).[/B]


I was not going to respond anymore to this thread but here goes anyway. 

I do not think that any reputable breeder who cares for their dogs would EVER rip a sick furbaby from the person it loves and is comfortable with, unless that person could not care for the sick dog and/or needed help. My opinion, of course! However, the clause is in the contracts for our protection, as well.* There ARE unethical buyers out there also!!*

Also, just playing devil's advocate here, what about the yearly vaccinations and the problems they cause.....................is the breeder responsible for those? What about the dog that is allowed to run the stairs and jump on and off of the furniture.................is the breeder responsible for the potential problems that can cause. Let's go one step further....................with all the recent bad dog food.....................is the breeder responsible for the liver damage that could potentially kill the dog......looked like liver problems. What about the damage from toxic chemicals...........I had a dog that had liver numbers out the roof after eating some grass treated with weed-n-feed. The first thing my vet said was "liver shunt" until he knew the whole story............it certainly had all of the signs of a liver shunt! Did you all know that Pine-Sol is toxic to dogs? Chocolate.......onions........raw potato skins, etc. etc.?

You all seem to advocate for an open book on the breeders part, which is fine....not going to happen, but it's fine that you would like that, but that open book would need to work both ways. The buyer has a huge responsibility also in the health and welfare of that puppy/dog. In puppies, the breeder only has that puppy for a very small amount of it's life. *A breeder can only do so much to get that puppy going in the right direction so that it will be a happy, well adjusted, healthy puppy for the rest of it's life. Then it is up to the buyer to continue. *

Short story here: I actually placed the cutest puppy ever (click on Rissa here)......weighs under 4 pounds full grown, full of life. The buyer was not happy with her because the buyer kept comparing her to the buyer's previous chi's. She had this poor baby into the vet 11 times in 7 weeks for all kinds of different tests.....looking for something wrong. Then 4 days before the puppy turned 6 months old, the buyer had the puppy cut down to try to make her look like a chi. She contacted me 4 days later saying the puppy was not cuddly enough  I took the baby back and ended up placing her with another lady who adores Rissa for who she is. Point of the story here is that the lady WANTED something to be wrong with my puppy!!! :angry: 
*
Needless to say.....the buyers also need to take some responsibility in the upbringing and the welfare of the puppy. As breeders, we cannot control the environment the puppy is exposed to after the buyer has taken the dog. We can only hope the buyer has been honest with us and is as sensible, responsible, and informed as we felt they were when we agreed to let them have one of our dogs. *

*Now I am not saying that there are not real genetic health issues that the breeders and the buyers need to be informed and concerned about............however I am saying that not all health/structural issues are genetic!!!*
[/B][/QUOTE]

*EXCELLENT POST!!!! * :goodpost: 

I think you post was fair AND balanced. As a pet owner, I have come across many other puppy parents who simply did not have the right mindset nor capabilities to care for a pup adequately.


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## BrookeB676

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 5 2009, 09:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813840


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 3 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813266





> I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder whose guarantee offered only a replacement puppy. Most pet owners would never return the pet they love and then therefor receive no compensation. I think it's a horrible loophole. After talking to some reputable breeders and thinking about what I believe is the right thing to do I think the following guarantee is what an ethical breeder would have: In the event of a congenital/genetic health issue (this can be defined by specific issues if the breeder prefers), the breeder will pay for the vet bills UP TO the purchase price of the puppy, or if bills exceed the purchase price of the puppy, the breeder will refund that full purchase price. The breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back of course and if they choose could offer a replacement instead. But I feel very strongly in that the breeder should be responsible if a puppy they sell ends up with a congenital/genetic health issues and should pay the vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup (or refund that purchase price).[/B]


I was not going to respond anymore to this thread but here goes anyway. 

I do not think that any reputable breeder who cares for their dogs would EVER rip a sick furbaby from the person it loves and is comfortable with, unless that person could not care for the sick dog and/or needed help. My opinion, of course! However, the clause is in the contracts for our protection, as well. There ARE unethical buyers out there also!!

Also, just playing devil's advocate here, what about the yearly vaccinations and the problems they cause.....................is the breeder responsible for those? What about the dog that is allowed to run the stairs and jump on and off of the furniture.................is the breeder responsible for the potential problems that can cause. Let's go one step further....................with all the recent bad dog food.....................is the breeder responsible for the liver damage that could potentially kill the dog......looked like liver problems. What about the damage from toxic chemicals...........I had a dog that had liver numbers out the roof after eating some grass treated with weed-n-feed. The first thing my vet said was "liver shunt" until he knew the whole story............it certainly had all of the signs of a liver shunt! Did you all know that Pine-Sol is toxic to dogs? Chocolate.......onions........raw potato skins, etc. etc.?

You all seem to advocate for an open book on the breeders part, which is fine....not going to happen, but it's fine that you would like that, but that open book would need to work both ways. The buyer has a huge responsibility also in the health and welfare of that puppy/dog. In puppies, the breeder only has that puppy for a very small amount of it's life. A breeder can only do so much to get that puppy going in the right direction so that it will be a happy, well adjusted, healthy puppy for the rest of it's life. Then it is up to the buyer to continue. 

Short story here: I actually placed the cutest puppy ever (click on Rissa here)......weighs under 4 pounds full grown, full of life. The buyer was not happy with her because the buyer kept comparing her to the buyer's previous chi's. She had this poor baby into the vet 11 times in 7 weeks for all kinds of different tests.....looking for something wrong. Then 4 days before the puppy turned 6 months old, the buyer had the puppy cut down to try to make her look like a chi. She contacted me 4 days later saying the puppy was not cuddly enough  I took the baby back and ended up placing her with another lady who adores Rissa for who she is. Point of the story here is that the lady WANTED something to be wrong with my puppy!!! :angry: 

Needless to say.....the buyers also need to take some responsibility in the upbringing and the welfare of the puppy. As breeders, we cannot control the environment the puppy is exposed to after the buyer has taken the dog. We can only hope the buyer has been honest with us and is as sensible, responsible, and informed as we felt they were when we *agreed* to let them have one of our dogs. 

Now I am not saying that there are not real genetic health issues that the breeders and the buyers need to be informed and concerned about............however I am saying that not all health/structural issues are genetic!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree 100%! It's hard for a breeder to take responsibility for every little thing when they are not exposed or around to the environment the dog lives in.


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## roxybaby22

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 5 2009, 10:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813840


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 3 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813266





> I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder whose guarantee offered only a replacement puppy. Most pet owners would never return the pet they love and then therefor receive no compensation. I think it's a horrible loophole. After talking to some reputable breeders and thinking about what I believe is the right thing to do I think the following guarantee is what an ethical breeder would have: In the event of a congenital/genetic health issue (this can be defined by specific issues if the breeder prefers), the breeder will pay for the vet bills UP TO the purchase price of the puppy, or if bills exceed the purchase price of the puppy, the breeder will refund that full purchase price. The breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back of course and if they choose could offer a replacement instead. But I feel very strongly in that the breeder should be responsible if a puppy they sell ends up with a congenital/genetic health issues and should pay the vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup (or refund that purchase price).[/B]


I was not going to respond anymore to this thread but here goes anyway. 

I do not think that any reputable breeder who cares for their dogs would EVER rip a sick furbaby from the person it loves and is comfortable with, unless that person could not care for the sick dog and/or needed help. My opinion, of course! However, the clause is in the contracts for our protection, as well. There ARE unethical buyers out there also!!

Also, just playing devil's advocate here, what about the yearly vaccinations and the problems they cause.....................is the breeder responsible for those? What about the dog that is allowed to run the stairs and jump on and off of the furniture.................is the breeder responsible for the potential problems that can cause. Let's go one step further....................with all the recent bad dog food.....................is the breeder responsible for the liver damage that could potentially kill the dog......looked like liver problems. What about the damage from toxic chemicals...........I had a dog that had liver numbers out the roof after eating some grass treated with weed-n-feed. The first thing my vet said was "liver shunt" until he knew the whole story............it certainly had all of the signs of a liver shunt! Did you all know that Pine-Sol is toxic to dogs? Chocolate.......onions........raw potato skins, etc. etc.?

You all seem to advocate for an open book on the breeders part, which is fine....not going to happen, but it's fine that you would like that, but that open book would need to work both ways. The buyer has a huge responsibility also in the health and welfare of that puppy/dog. In puppies, the breeder only has that puppy for a very small amount of it's life. A breeder can only do so much to get that puppy going in the right direction so that it will be a happy, well adjusted, healthy puppy for the rest of it's life. Then it is up to the buyer to continue. 

Short story here: I actually placed the cutest puppy ever (click on Rissa here)......weighs under 4 pounds full grown, full of life. The buyer was not happy with her because the buyer kept comparing her to the buyer's previous chi's. She had this poor baby into the vet 11 times in 7 weeks for all kinds of different tests.....looking for something wrong. Then 4 days before the puppy turned 6 months old, the buyer had the puppy cut down to try to make her look like a chi. She contacted me 4 days later saying the puppy was not cuddly enough  I took the baby back and ended up placing her with another lady who adores Rissa for who she is. Point of the story here is that the lady WANTED something to be wrong with my puppy!!! :angry: 

Needless to say.....the buyers also need to take some responsibility in the upbringing and the welfare of the puppy. As breeders, we cannot control the environment the puppy is exposed to after the buyer has taken the dog. We can only hope the buyer has been honest with us and is as sensible,  responsible, and informed as we felt they were when we *agreed* to let them have one of our dogs. 

Now I am not saying that there are not real genetic health issues that the breeders and the buyers need to be informed and concerned about............however I am saying that not all health/structural issues are genetic!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost: EXCELLENT POINTS!!!! :biggrin:


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 5 2009, 07:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813840


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 3 2009, 09:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813266





> I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder whose guarantee offered only a replacement puppy. Most pet owners would never return the pet they love and then therefor receive no compensation. I think it's a horrible loophole. After talking to some reputable breeders and thinking about what I believe is the right thing to do I think the following guarantee is what an ethical breeder would have: In the event of a congenital/genetic health issue (this can be defined by specific issues if the breeder prefers), the breeder will pay for the vet bills UP TO the purchase price of the puppy, or if bills exceed the purchase price of the puppy, the breeder will refund that full purchase price. The breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back of course and if they choose could offer a replacement instead. But I feel very strongly in that the breeder should be responsible if a puppy they sell ends up with a congenital/genetic health issues and should pay the vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup (or refund that purchase price).[/B]


I was not going to respond anymore to this thread but here goes anyway. 

I do not think that any reputable breeder who cares for their dogs would EVER rip a sick furbaby from the person it loves and is comfortable with, unless that person could not care for the sick dog and/or needed help. My opinion, of course! However, the clause is in the contracts for our protection, as well. There ARE unethical buyers out there also!!

Also, just playing devil's advocate here, what about the yearly vaccinations and the problems they cause.....................is the breeder responsible for those? What about the dog that is allowed to run the stairs and jump on and off of the furniture.................is the breeder responsible for the potential problems that can cause. Let's go one step further....................with all the recent bad dog food.....................is the breeder responsible for the liver damage that could potentially kill the dog......looked like liver problems. What about the damage from toxic chemicals...........I had a dog that had liver numbers out the roof after eating some grass treated with weed-n-feed. The first thing my vet said was "liver shunt" until he knew the whole story............it certainly had all of the signs of a liver shunt! Did you all know that Pine-Sol is toxic to dogs? Chocolate.......onions........raw potato skins, etc. etc.?

You all seem to advocate for an open book on the breeders part, which is fine....not going to happen, but it's fine that you would like that, but that open book would need to work both ways. The buyer has a huge responsibility also in the health and welfare of that puppy/dog. In puppies, the breeder only has that puppy for a very small amount of it's life. A breeder can only do so much to get that puppy going in the right direction so that it will be a happy, well adjusted, healthy puppy for the rest of it's life. Then it is up to the buyer to continue. 

Short story here: I actually placed the cutest puppy ever (click on Rissa here)......weighs under 4 pounds full grown, full of life. The buyer was not happy with her because the buyer kept comparing her to the buyer's previous chi's. She had this poor baby into the vet 11 times in 7 weeks for all kinds of different tests.....looking for something wrong. Then 4 days before the puppy turned 6 months old, the buyer had the puppy cut down to try to make her look like a chi. She contacted me 4 days later saying the puppy was not cuddly enough  I took the baby back and ended up placing her with another lady who adores Rissa for who she is. Point of the story here is that the lady WANTED something to be wrong with my puppy!!! :angry: 

Needless to say.....the buyers also need to take some responsibility in the upbringing and the welfare of the puppy. As breeders, we cannot control the environment the puppy is exposed to after the buyer has taken the dog. We can only hope the buyer has been honest with us and is as sensible, responsible, and informed as we felt they were when we *agreed* to let them have one of our dogs. 

Now I am not saying that there are not real genetic health issues that the breeders and the buyers need to be informed and concerned about............however I am saying that not all health/structural issues are genetic!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh Sharon, thank you for stating so well what I wanted to say. I was going to stay out of this thread for the most part because I'm so new and my contract is still a work in progress, but you really hit the nail on the head. 

I agree that any reputable breeder would never expect a buyer to return a dog, even if it's stated in the contract, but I also agree that clause needing to be in a contract for CYA purposes. It goes back to being able to trust the person you're buying from.


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## Poppy's mommy

I agree that was an excellent post. Both buyer and breeder should be honest with each other but there is not a perfect breeder or owner and if they were I would love to meet them. I just think contratcs should be honest and no loopholes for breeder or buyer.


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## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Aug 5 2009, 09:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813871


> I agree that any reputable breeder would never expect a buyer to return a dog, even if it's stated in the contract, but I also agree that clause needing to be in a contract for CYA purposes. *It goes back to being able to trust the person you're buying from.*[/B]


What Jackie said about the contract only being as good as the persons who signed it really covers the subject very well. But I guess I do not have a positive (complete) understanding of the phrase "reputable breeder". If a person presents as a sweet friendly person you like, is well known in the show/breeding world and has a good reputation there, is respected by other breeders and pet owners, obviously loves and cares well for the puppies they breed, all signs of where the puppies are raise are positive, they don't have a history of dogs with problems, they appear to abide by AMA ethics---etc., etc.---- most would say "reputable breeder". There are still ones of these who the ONLY option if the puppy has obvious congenital health problems, i.e. Luxating P's, and MVD, etc., who simply have nothing else to say to that but "I'll take him back". That is not a solution for a pet owner, at least not one like most of us. We love that baby like our newborn child, they are a family member (is this why the breeder isn't worried about stating the contract that way?). We want to come to the breeder for help and advice in treatment, including at least some sort of "offer" of financial responsibility with vet bills. If a breeder can't "afford" financially to do that, I don't think they should be in the business of producing puppies.

People like Lacie and Sharon we know have offered that and not been financially broken by it. I don't know how many of the Maltese well known breeders would also stand behind what they produce in like manner, but I do know there is still the "bring him back" ones out there.

I think that is what this subject is about--wanting to know what the different contracts out there are saying on the subject. But who wants to have to fight or argue with your breeder? You want to like and trust in your puppy's first parent. Legally enforcing a contract would be more expensive than the vet bills in all likelihood. When you have put a prospective breeder to all the known "tests" and decided to trust (which is what you have to do!) in them and take that sweet piece of white fluffy love into your life, *for life*---and something comes up that is a congenitally passed problem, you don't want it to be a thing of paranoia or blame for the breeder. You don't want them to suddenly be on the defensive! They should be as concerned for that puppy's welfare as you are and as responsible. They should be sad for the occurrence, but glad to know so they can stop the problem in their line.

I admire Sharon's diligence to do the best things possible by both her dogs and their owner's. What a blessing for all our furbabies if all people who produce them were so diligent with their health and welfare. Certainly all health issues, human or animal, can not be known with complete surety. There can be injuries or bad feeding and care, so there has to be trust on both sides. Maybe the best thing would be to include language in the contract about both the owner's and breeder's vets agreeing on cause.


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## jmm

I think we need a science lesson stuck in this thread. 

Congenital means existing/present at birth or acquired in the uterus during development and not through heredity. So an example of a congenital defect could be central diabetes insipidus where the dog has a slight defect in the pituitary gland, but in most breeds this is not genetic. A congenital defect does not necessarily mean a breeder is breeding unhealthy dogs or not concerned for genetic health. It is one of those things that can happen. 

Genetic refers to something controlled by the genes passed on from the parents and recombined to form the puppy's genetic make up. You can have 2 seemingly healthy parents produce a problem when their genes are combined. In our breed where we don't have genetic testing available for things like liver shunt, GME, and luxating patella, we are stuck with working backwards from an affected dog to try to eliminate the issue. Unfortunately, somebody has to own that affected dog. 

In either case, it is not whether the breeder has produced a congenital or genetic defect, it is what they do to prevent it and how they react when something pops up. 

You also have to accept, to some degree, that some problems are "acceptable". A grade 1 patella does not prohibit a dog from being a good pet or doing obedience. It may or may not need surgery one day. MVD does not mean you have a sick dog or a dog who will not live its normal lifespan. In some breeds like Maltese with a certain head shape, some degree of hydrocephalus is normal. Some things are so saturated in our breed we have to understand and accept that while helping our breeders be aware of what they have produced.


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## Snow Man's Mom

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 5 2009, 02:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813944


> I think we need a science lesson stuck in this thread.
> 
> Congenital means existing/present at birth or acquired in the uterus during development and not through heredity. So an example of a congenital defect could be central diabetes insipidus where the dog has a slight defect in the pituitary gland, but in most breeds this is not genetic. A congenital defect does not necessarily mean a breeder is breeding unhealthy dogs or not concerned for genetic health. It is one of those things that can happen.
> 
> Genetic refers to something controlled by the genes passed on from the parents and recombined to form the puppy's genetic make up. You can have 2 seemingly healthy parents produce a problem when their genes are combined. In our breed where we don't have genetic testing available for things like liver shunt, GME, and luxating patella, we are stuck with working backwards from an affected dog to try to eliminate the issue. Unfortunately, somebody has to own that affected dog.
> 
> In either case, it is not whether the breeder has produced a congenital or genetic defect, it is what they do to prevent it and how they react when something pops up.
> 
> You also have to accept, to some degree, that some problems are "acceptable". A grade 1 patella does not prohibit a dog from being a good pet or doing obedience. It may or may not need surgery one day. MVD does not mean you have a sick dog or a dog who will not live its normal lifespan. In some breeds like Maltese with a certain head shape, some degree of hydrocephalus is normal. Some things are so saturated in our breed we have to understand and accept that while helping our breeders be aware of what they have produced.[/B]


 :goodpost: :goodpost:


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## Starsmom

Thank you JMM for the genitic/congential definitions.

The following is a gaurantee posted on a breeders website. This breeder does DNA testing, and is NOT on the AMA list. I am posting it as an example. What is a concern to me regarding this guarantee is the breeder takes no responsibility for vet costs, and there is not a spay/neuter agreement written within the contract, but I know the breeder does have this stipulation - perhaps it's an oversight. The space for "breed" is b/c Yorkies are also bred.

Again, the purpose of this thread was to share, and learn the differences of breeders contracts.


<div align='left'>Breed_________________ Sire________________________________#_______________<div align='left'>Sex___________________ Dam_______________________________#_______________<div align='left'>Date of Birth____________ AKC papers picked up______________to be mailed_________<span style="font-family:ArialMT"><div align='left'>__________Puppy is a show/breeding prospect, but is not guaranteed to win.<div align='left'>__________Puppy is represented as a companion, has limited AKC reg. /Spay/neuter at 6-8 months.
<div align='left'>Your new puppy has received the following vaccinations & treatments. Please keep your next appointment to ensure further protection. No guarantee is made against viral infections. Vaccine is not 100% protective.We do not give Lepto or Lyme vaccine. We DO NOT recommend getting a rabies shot, puppy shot,heartworm/flea control on the same day. This is overwhelming to a small toy dog. Do not vaccinate a pupthat is under stress or not eating well. If your vet vaccinates this puppy within 7 days of you receiving thepup it voids all warranties. The pup must have an acclimation period.
<div align='left'>Parvo__________________ Parainfluenza-Bordetella Bronchiseptica (nasal)____________<div align='left'>DA2PPV________________________ Rabies________________________________________<div align='left'>Panacur (wormer)________________ Heart worm Preventative________________________<div align='left'>Next shots are due____________________________________________________________________
</span>_<span style="font-family:NewsGothicStd-Oblique"><div align='left'>*~~~Guarantee~~~*
_</span><span style="font-family:ArialMT"><div align='left'>Every precaution has been taken to see that your new puppy is healthy. Please take your puppy to your vet within 48 hrs. of receipt. If your new puppy is found unhealthy, you may return the pup to the seller within 48hrs. You will receive a refund or a replacement. A signed assessment from your vet must be furnished. The seller assumes no responsibility for defects if the pup is not returned with 48 hrs. No guarantee is made asto size, disposition, breeding capability or confirmation in pet pups. Puppies hearts, livers, & neurological systems are guaranteed until 24 months of age against life threatening congenital defects, luxating patellasare not covered. There is no guarantee against hypoglycemia (low blood sugar crisis) since it is mainly caused by stress, loss of appetite due to stress, or exhaustion. The breeder has no control over the stress a pup is submitted to at his new home. The puppy should not have activities that would exhaust him or over excite him when he first comes home. The seller assumes no responsibility for any bill incurred concerning this puppy. This puppy is represented only as stated in the above contract. The contract supersedes allcontracts, both written & verbal. In order to receive an adjustment, under the terms of the contract, Buyer must return papers and dog to seller, if this pup dies within the 2 yr period, a necropsy must be preformed to receive an adjustment. The dog shall be replaced, no money refunded after 48 hours.
</span><span style="font-family:ArialMT"><div align='left'>Seller_________________________ Purchaser___________________________________________Date_________________________ Address_____________________________________________

</span>


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## godiva goddess

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 6 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814293


> Again, the purpose of this thread was to share, and learn the differences of breeders contracts.[/B]


It is futile and frankly, moot, to "compare" breeders contracts. Each legal contract is tailored specifically for an individual buyer. There is no "one size fits all" contract since no 2 dog, and no 2 buyer is exactly identical. While there may be similarities within the industry, each contract should be drawn up to be enforceable based on the specific needs/requirements of that buyer and dog. In law school, I have studied plenty of contracts and were never told to "compare/contrast" one K to another. LOL. It just doesnt even make sense. :confused1: That is *not *how you learn about contracts. What you should do is to READ *YOUR* contract carefully, and think it over, consult others, ASK plenty of questions to your breeder, *BEFORE* signing. If you want, consult an attorney beforehand.

From a legal standpoint, your attempt to analyze a breeder's contract and "compare/contrast" it with another person's contract is quite the legal fiction.


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## Snow Man's Mom

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 6 2009, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814306


> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 6 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814293





> Again, the purpose of this thread was to share, and learn the differences of breeders contracts.[/B]


It is futile and frankly, moot, to "compare" breeders contracts. Each legal contract is tailored specifically for an individual buyer. There is no "one size fits all" contract since no 2 dog, and no 2 buyer is exactly identical. While there may be similarities within the industry, each contract should be drawn up to be enforceable based on the specific needs/requirements of that buyer and dog. In law school, I have studied plenty of contracts and were never told to "compare/contrast" one K to another. LOL. It just doesnt even make sense. :confused1: That is *not *how you learn about contracts. What you should do is to READ *YOUR* contract carefully, and think it over, consult others, ASK plenty of questions to your breeder, *BEFORE* signing. If you want, consult an attorney beforehand.

From a legal standpoint, your attempt to analyze a breeder's contract and "compare/contrast" it with another person's contract is quite the legal fiction.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have heard many breeders make this statement...........

"My contract is NOT written in stone." So what you are saying is how I gather it to be also.


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## Purple-peep

I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (Snow Man's Mom @ Aug 6 2009, 01:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814409


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 6 2009, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814306





> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 6 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814293





> Again, the purpose of this thread was to share, and learn the differences of breeders contracts.[/B]


It is futile and frankly, moot, to "compare" breeders contracts. Each legal contract is tailored specifically for an individual buyer. There is no "one size fits all" contract since no 2 dog, and no 2 buyer is exactly identical. While there may be similarities within the industry, each contract should be drawn up to be enforceable based on the specific needs/requirements of that buyer and dog. In law school, I have studied plenty of contracts and were never told to "compare/contrast" one K to another. LOL. It just doesnt even make sense. :confused1: That is *not *how you learn about contracts. What you should do is to READ *YOUR* contract carefully, and think it over, consult others, ASK plenty of questions to your breeder, *BEFORE* signing. If you want, consult an attorney beforehand.

From a legal standpoint, your attempt to analyze a breeder's contract and "compare/contrast" it with another person's contract is quite the legal fiction.
[/B][/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is it's OK for a breeder to make up his/her contractual rules as they see fit. I can see how that can get confusing from one sale to the next, and not make it a fair playing field. If you purchase a new auto the manufacturer has guaranteed it for a certain amount of miles to be problematic free for major parts IE. transmission, etc. providing the buyer does their part in meeting the required maintenance schedule. Everyone wants that guarantee, but according to your statement it would be OK for the manufacturer to change it from one sale to the next. 

In the legal world it may not be the way you learn about contracts, but in the dog world comparing breeder's contracts would be just one avenue to begin the perfect breeder and pup search. If the contracts were published up front, one could read it before any contact be made and it would allow the prospective buyer to decide then if any further contact were to take place. The goal of this thread is to see how breeders word theirs.

I have heard many breeders make this statement...........

"My contract is NOT written in stone." So what you are saying is how I gather it to be also.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Do these breeders make up their contracts with the buyers as they go along?


QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491


> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


What did you have in mind that required negotiating?


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## LJSquishy

QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491


> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Aug 7 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814666


> QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491





> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Lisa, either the AMA or AKC (can't recall which) requires a 2 year health guarantee. I'm sure someone here will post which one.


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## Purple-peep

Lisa is right...length of coverage.

I spoke with several breeders when looking for a puppy. For many, this is their living. It's devastating for them as well, to have a genetic problem arise. Their whole reputation is on the line and you know the word spreds fast, in the Maltese world. I would never blame a breeder for something like that, as we all know things can pop up. It's a risk we all take when buying a maltese.

Any decent breeder would do the right thing, if one of their puppies had a serious medical problem. 

Overall, I believe you should have a good relationship with your breeder. Ask tons of questions and if you're not comfortable, go elsewhere.


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## jmm

QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 7 2009, 11:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814716


> Lisa is right...length of coverage.
> 
> I spoke with several breeders when looking for a puppy. For many, this is their living. It's devastating for them as well, to have a genetic problem arise. Their whole reputation is on the line and you know the word spreds fast, in the Maltese world. I would never blame a breeder for something like that, as we all know things can pop up. It's a risk we all take when buying a maltese.
> 
> Any decent breeder would do the right thing, if one of their puppies had a serious medical problem.
> 
> Overall, I believe you should have a good relationship with your breeder. Ask tons of questions and if you're not comfortable, go elsewhere.[/B]


Excellent post.


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## roxybaby22

QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 7 2009, 12:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814716


> Lisa is right...length of coverage.
> 
> I spoke with several breeders when looking for a puppy. For many, this is their living. It's devastating for them as well, to have a genetic problem arise. Their whole reputation is on the line and you know the word spreds fast, in the Maltese world. I would never blame a breeder for something like that, as we all know things can pop up. It's a risk we all take when buying a maltese.
> 
> Any decent breeder would do the right thing, if one of their puppies had a serious medical problem.
> 
> Overall, I believe you should have a good relationship with your breeder. Ask tons of questions and if you're not comfortable, go elsewhere.[/B]


:goodpost: Exactly the way I feel.


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## LJSquishy

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 08:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814670


> QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Aug 7 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814666





> QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491





> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Lisa, either the AMA or AKC (can't recall which) requires a 2 year health guarantee. I'm sure someone here will post which one.
[/B][/QUOTE]

It must be the AMA, because AKC definitely doesn't require any health guarantee from a breeder.


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## jmm

http://americanmaltese.org/ama_club_code_of_ethics.htm


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## MaryH

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 11:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814670


> QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Aug 7 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814666





> QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491





> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Lisa, either the AMA or AKC (can't recall which) requires a 2 year health guarantee. I'm sure someone here will post which one.
[/B][/QUOTE]


StarsMom -- here's the facts:

1. NEITHER THE AMA NOR THE AKC REQUIRES ANY BREEDER TO GIVE ANY HEALTH GUARANTEE.

2. Every contract is negotiable.

3. A contract is only as good as either party's willingness to enforce it.

4. The real reason why many who have read this post have not responded is because quite frankly it's really none of your business what any other person's contract says (especially on a public forum).

Comparing contracts is meaningless and does not distinguish between honest and dishonest people (whether breeder or buyer). If you are considering buying a dog, ask to see the dog, ask to see the sale contract, read it, ask questions, whatever. But, most importantly, ask yourself if you are getting a good feeling about the person you are buying from.

MaryH


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 7 2009, 05:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814811


> StarsMom -- here's the facts:
> 
> 1. NEITHER THE AMA NOR THE AKC REQUIRES ANY BREEDER TO GIVE ANY HEALTH GUARANTEE.
> 
> 2. Every contract is negotiable.
> 
> 3. A contract is only as good as either party's willingness to enforce it.
> 
> 4. The real reason why many who have read this post have not responded is because quite frankly it's really none of your business what any other person's contract says (especially on a public forum).
> 
> Comparing contracts is meaningless and does not distinguish between honest and dishonest people (whether breeder or buyer). If you are considering buying a dog, ask to see the dog, ask to see the sale contract, read it, ask questions, whatever. But, most importantly, ask yourself if you are getting a good feeling about the person you are buying from.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


 :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:


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## Cosy

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 7 2009, 05:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814838


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 7 2009, 05:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814811





> StarsMom -- here's the facts:
> 
> 1. NEITHER THE AMA NOR THE AKC REQUIRES ANY BREEDER TO GIVE ANY HEALTH GUARANTEE.
> 
> 2. Every contract is negotiable.
> 
> 3. A contract is only as good as either party's willingness to enforce it.
> 
> 4. The real reason why many who have read this post have not responded is because quite frankly it's really none of your business what any other person's contract says (especially on a public forum).
> 
> Comparing contracts is meaningless and does not distinguish between honest and dishonest people (whether breeder or buyer). If you are considering buying a dog, ask to see the dog, ask to see the sale contract, read it, ask questions, whatever. But, most importantly, ask yourself if you are getting a good feeling about the person you are buying from.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


 :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:
[/B][/QUOTE]


...And now you know the rest of the story


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 7 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814811


> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 11:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814670





> QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Aug 7 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814666





> QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491





> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Lisa, either the AMA or AKC (can't recall which) requires a 2 year health guarantee. I'm sure someone here will post which one.
[/B][/QUOTE]


StarsMom -- here's the facts:

1. NEITHER THE AMA NOR THE AKC REQUIRES ANY BREEDER TO GIVE ANY HEALTH GUARANTEE.

*OK, but I was sure I had read that one of the sites. Perhaps it was some guide to breeders instead. I stand corrected, but I don't need to be screamed at via a post. :forgive me: All CAPS is not necessary, I read just fine.
*
2. Every contract is negotiable.

*I didn't realize this, I was led to believe a breeder had a standard contract and went by it. I'm sure this tidbit of information will be of value to many.
*
3. A contract is only as good as either party's willingness to enforce it.

*Of course, that's common sense*.

4. The real reason why many who have read this post have not responded is because quite frankly it's really none of your business what any other person's contract says (especially on a public forum).

*You must have had hundreds of PM's regarding this thread to make this blanket statement. I thought this forum was a place to exchange ideas and learn, not just a mutual admiration society - apparently I am mistaken. Up until now the thread had not turned personal, but you managed to do that. For the fourth time, the intent of the thread was to learn the way various breeders worded their contracts, and perhaps dealt with any issues had they arose. It was no in any way meant or intended as smear campaign on breeders of integrity. Therefore, looking at the various contracts would have nothing to do with being honest or not by either party. Since this thread has had over 2000 hits, I'd venture to say I'm not alone in my interest in this topic. As I posted before it would be a place to start - if one is not comfortable with the contract they would move on.
*
Comparing contracts is meaningless and does not distinguish between honest and dishonest people (whether breeder or buyer). If you are considering buying a dog, ask to see the dog, ask to see the sale contract, read it, ask questions, whatever. But, most importantly, ask yourself if you are getting a good feeling about the person you are buying from.

*If I was considering buying a fluff at this time, the negativity this thread has generated probably wouldn't get me very far with any of the breeders on SM so I'd have to look elsewhere and hope for the best. 

To the mods: olice: 
Like a bored pup chasing it's tail, this thread is going nowhere, so you might as well close it down. I tried to get something fresh going here - thanks for all the bytes devoted to it. M
*
MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 8 2009, 01:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814960


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 7 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814811





> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 11:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814670





> QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Aug 7 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814666





> QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491





> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Lisa, either the AMA or AKC (can't recall which) requires a 2 year health guarantee. I'm sure someone here will post which one.
[/B][/QUOTE]


StarsMom -- here's the facts:

1. NEITHER THE AMA NOR THE AKC REQUIRES ANY BREEDER TO GIVE ANY HEALTH GUARANTEE.

*OK, but I was sure I had read that one of the sites. Perhaps it was some guide to breeders instead. I stand corrected, but I don't need to be screamed at via a post. :forgive me: All CAPS is not necessary, I read just fine.
*
2. Every contract is negotiable.

*I didn't realize this, I was led to believe a breeder had a standard contract and went by it. I'm sure this tidbit of information will be of value to many.
*
3. A contract is only as good as either party's willingness to enforce it.

*Of course, that's common sense*.

4. The real reason why many who have read this post have not responded is because quite frankly it's really none of your business what any other person's contract says (especially on a public forum).

*You must have had hundreds of PM's regarding this thread to make this blanket statement. I thought this forum was a place to exchange ideas and learn, not just a mutual admiration society - apparently I am mistaken. Up until now the thread had not turned personal, but you managed to do that. For the fourth time, the intent of the thread was to learn the way various breeders worded their contracts, and perhaps dealt with any issues had they arose. It was no in any way meant or intended as smear campaign on breeders of integrity. Therefore, looking at the various contracts would have nothing to do with being honest or not by either party. Since this thread has had over 2000 hits, I'd venture to say I'm not alone in my interest in this topic. As I posted before it would be a place to start - if one is not comfortable with the contract they would move on.
*
Comparing contracts is meaningless and does not distinguish between honest and dishonest people (whether breeder or buyer). If you are considering buying a dog, ask to see the dog, ask to see the sale contract, read it, ask questions, whatever. But, most importantly, ask yourself if you are getting a good feeling about the person you are buying from.

*If I was considering buying a fluff at this time, the negativity this thread has generated probably wouldn't get me very far with any of the breeders on SM so I'd have to look elsewhere and hope for the best. 

To the mods: olice: 
Like a bored pup chasing it's tail, this thread is going nowhere, so you might as well close it down. I tried to get something fresh going here - thanks for all the bytes devoted to it. M
*
MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


Marsha, please, step back.. realise that you have asked an innocent question, and your question has been addressed .. perhaps you feel it hasn't been answered how you would like, but people have tried their best.


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## theboyz

I think this thread has been most helpful. Prospective buyers can see what to ask and bargain for in a contract.

Unless you are aware of what is out there you would have no idea what your rights are.

I have been visiting a lot of sites and seeing what their contracts say and I still like the contract that says I could keep the pup, if something is wrong, AND get a new one. I guess that is far and few between and makes me feel secure in getting attached to one pup and not giving it up.

Thanks Marsha for this thread.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (theboyz @ Aug 8 2009, 08:03 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815056


> I think this thread has been most helpful. Prospective buyers can see what to ask and bargain for in a contract.
> 
> Unless you are aware of what is out there you would have no idea what your rights are.
> 
> *I have been visiting a lot of sites and seeing what their contracts say and I still like the contract that says I could keep the pup, if something is wrong, AND get a new one. *I guess that is far and few between and makes me feel secure in getting attached to one pup and not giving it up.
> 
> Thanks Marsha for this thread.[/B]


If I were a breeder, I would not put in my contract that the buyer could keep the pup, but if the situation arose, would likely do it, KWIM. Contracts are there to protect both parties and when drawing up a contract ... without even knowing who the buyer will be ... I think it is not smart to put that in the contract. 

Even if the contract still calls for a return of the puppy, the breeder has the option to not require it. This clause could certainly be amended once the buyer is known and the breeder feels comfortable with them. 

As has been said already in this thread, a reputable breeder will do the right thing. That is the most important aspect of choosing a breeder ... choosing a reputable breeder.


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## princessre

I apologize for not responding to this thread. It was definitely NOT because I thought it was none of your business what my contract said. I kept thinking I had to go find my contract, but I never got around to it. Sorry  (And now I've looked and I can't find it.) I do think the general terms and conditions of the health guarantee would be helpful to a new buyer that felt comfortable going with a breeder they didn't know through reputation or personal connection. If I were getting a new puppy from a breeder that was not very established and well-known, I think I would TRY to get a guarantee to pay vet costs up to cost of puppy for congenital defect. I have friends who had puppy replacement clauses and who chose not to take advantage of them because of the emotional turmoil of potentially getting yet another sick puppy from the same breeder. However, (and I might be wrong, but) I can't think of any breeder who would agree to pay the vet costs (that I trust would still be findable at any time). Therefore, I would always still go back to breeders that I or a friend had a good experience dealing with. At the end of the day, I just don't think show breeders make loads or even significant money from breeding. So it's a huge liability for them to have that vet cost clause out there with every pet they place, especially since environmental factors are hard to separate from genetics sometimes...I will say that maybe a 1 or 2 year guarantee against congenital defects would be helpful in vetting out a disingenuous breeder. Most breeders I talked to offered that.


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## theboyz

OK, well I have to disagree as that is one thing in a contract that would draw me to a breeder. Knowing that they would stand behind their dogs to that degree.
Can you imagine facing that situation of having to give the pup back or say nothing!!!!! I have known people in that situation and have known a very well known breeder/show person that did just that.....demanded the pup back.
Would break my heart. So a contract that says what it says, means just that and don't be so sure that you can keep your beloved pup and get a new one also just because it is the "right thing". What is WRITTEN is what I would go by.
We are talking about a lot of money and investment of the heart to just think "Oh they will do the right thing".
Don't be so sure.
Anyway, new buyers, read the contracts, have EVERYTHING written to your satisfaction.





QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 8 2009, 09:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815070


> QUOTE (theboyz @ Aug 8 2009, 08:03 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815056





> I think this thread has been most helpful. Prospective buyers can see what to ask and bargain for in a contract.
> 
> Unless you are aware of what is out there you would have no idea what your rights are.
> 
> *I have been visiting a lot of sites and seeing what their contracts say and I still like the contract that says I could keep the pup, if something is wrong, AND get a new one. *I guess that is far and few between and makes me feel secure in getting attached to one pup and not giving it up.
> 
> Thanks Marsha for this thread.[/B]


If I were a breeder, I would not put in my contract that the buyer could keep the pup, but if the situation arose, would likely do it, KWIM. Contracts are there to protect both parties and when drawing up a contract ... without even knowing who the buyer will be ... I think it is not smart to put that in the contract. 

Even if the contract still calls for a return of the puppy, the breeder has the option to not require it. This clause could certainly be amended once the buyer is known and the breeder feels comfortable with them. 

As has been said already in this thread, a reputable breeder will do the right thing. That is the most important aspect of choosing a breeder ... choosing a reputable breeder.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (theboyz @ Aug 8 2009, 08:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815080


> OK, well I have to disagree as that is one thing in a contract that would draw me to a breeder. Knowing that they would stand behind their dogs to that degree.
> Can you imagine facing that situation of having to give the pup back or say nothing!!!!! I have known people in that situation and have known a very well known breeder/show person that did just that.....demanded the pup back.
> Would break my heart. So a contract that says what it says, means just that and don't be so sure that you can keep your beloved pup and get a new one also just because it is the "right thing". What is WRITTEN is what I would go by.
> We are talking about a lot of money and investment of the heart to just think "Oh they will do the right thing".
> Don't be so sure.
> Anyway, new buyers, read the contracts, have EVERYTHING written to your satisfaction.[/B]


If this were a perfect world there would be no need for contracts...............everyone would be honest and up front with everything. However, this is not a perfect world and the fact of the matter is that there are dishonest people who reside in this world. We, as breeders, could try to cover every situation but our contracts would become books instead of a couple of pages.

My "pet" people (I use that term fondly :wub: ) are the most wonderful people. I am very picky about to whom and to where my puppies go. In most cases we have become friends and visit on a fairly regular basis for the most part.....there are always a couple exceptions. We have formed a trusting relationship!! I love the pictures I receive as well as all the updates. We have cried together and we have laughed together. Would I demand a puppy/dog be returned to me from one of these people whom I trust....NO. However, I also know that I would know ahead of time if anything were going on with my dogs because most of my pet people actually do keep in touch with me.

If we breeders had in our contracts that we would give the buyers a new puppy without the return of the original...........I guarantee there would be people with forged health documents demanding that second puppy.......or third......or fourth........where would it end? There are just too many people working this scam and that. So the fact that the return of the sick puppy is in the contract, is for protection of the breeder.........and yes, I know that some less reputable breeders may use that same clause as a loophole........and I am sorry for that. That is where the buyer is responsible for doing their research when looking for a breeder to buy their future puppy from.

All I can say is that if you do not like the contract that the breeder, that you choose, has, discuss the matter with them. A reasonable request that can be mutually agreed upon can be added to any contract. However, please remember, the breeder does not have to sell you their puppy......................I turn down many when I have a puppy / dog available for a new home. If I cannot keep a puppy / dog for any reason, I want to find a perfect placement for that puppy / dog..................if that placement, that I feel is perfect, does not come along, that puppy / dog can stay with me, forever if need be.

I do not know what else to say concerning this matter to help you understand. *My* contract is written for the sole purpose of protecting *my dogs* and me. With the internet everyone and anyone can do a little research and learn all the correct things to say and / or do to get a puppy. I have to protect my dogs from these people........no one else is going to protect my dogs.....my dogs are where my responsibility lies. If I am not comfortable with a buyer, I do not need to sell to that buyer. It should be the same for the buyers.............if they are not comfortable with a breeder........move on to another.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 8 2009, 11:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815105


> If this were a perfect world there would be no need for contracts...............everyone would be honest and up front with everything. However, this is not a perfect world and the fact of the matter is that there are dishonest people who reside in this world. We, as breeders, could try to cover every situation but our contracts would become books instead of a couple of pages.
> 
> My "pet" people (I use that term fondly :wub: ) are the most wonderful people. I am very picky about to whom and to where my puppies go. In most cases we have become friends and visit on a fairly regular basis for the most part.....there are always a couple exceptions. We have formed a trusting relationship!! I love the pictures I receive as well as all the updates. We have cried together and we have laughed together. Would I demand a puppy/dog be returned to me from one of these people whom I trust....NO. However, I also know that I would know ahead of time if anything were going on with my dogs because most of my pet people actually do keep in touch with me.
> 
> If we breeders had in our contracts that we would give the buyers a new puppy without the return of the original...........I guarantee there would be people with forged health documents demanding that second puppy.......or third......or fourth........where would it end? There are just too many people working this scam and that. So the fact that the return of the sick puppy is in the contract, is for protection of the breeder.........and yes, I know that some less reputable breeders may use that same clause as a loophole........and I am sorry for that. That is where the buyer is responsible for doing their research when looking for a breeder to buy their future puppy from.
> 
> All I can say is that if you do not like the contract that the breeder, that you choose, has, discuss the matter with them. A reasonable request that can be mutually agreed upon can be added to any contract. However, please remember, the breeder does not have to sell you their puppy......................I turn down many when I have a puppy / dog available for a new home. If I cannot keep a puppy / dog for any reason, I want to find a perfect placement for that puppy / dog..................if that placement, that I feel is perfect, does not come along, that puppy / dog can stay with me, forever if need be.
> 
> I do not know what else to say concerning this matter to help you understand. *My* contract is written for the sole purpose of protecting *my dogs* and me. With the internet everyone and anyone can do a little research and learn all the correct things to say and / or do to get a puppy. I have to protect my dogs from these people........no one else is going to protect my dogs.....my dogs are where my responsibility lies. If I am not comfortable with a buyer, I do not need to sell to that buyer. It should be the same for the buyers.............if they are not comfortable with a breeder........move on to another.[/B]


Ohhhh, great points!!! :goodpost:


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## Furbaby's Mommie

I would love it if we did have that perfect world. I hate the idea of "negociating" the life and care of a living being. I adopt for life and for love and expect the person who bred my baby to feel the same way--so only the dog's welfare is involved. B)


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## Cosy

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 8 2009, 10:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815105


> QUOTE (theboyz @ Aug 8 2009, 08:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815080





> OK, well I have to disagree as that is one thing in a contract that would draw me to a breeder. Knowing that they would stand behind their dogs to that degree.
> Can you imagine facing that situation of having to give the pup back or say nothing!!!!! I have known people in that situation and have known a very well known breeder/show person that did just that.....demanded the pup back.
> Would break my heart. So a contract that says what it says, means just that and don't be so sure that you can keep your beloved pup and get a new one also just because it is the "right thing". What is WRITTEN is what I would go by.
> We are talking about a lot of money and investment of the heart to just think "Oh they will do the right thing".
> Don't be so sure.
> Anyway, new buyers, read the contracts, have EVERYTHING written to your satisfaction.[/B]


If this were a perfect world there would be no need for contracts...............everyone would be honest and up front with everything. However, this is not a perfect world and the fact of the matter is that there are dishonest people who reside in this world. We, as breeders, could try to cover every situation but our contracts would become books instead of a couple of pages.

My "pet" people (I use that term fondly :wub: ) are the most wonderful people. I am very picky about to whom and to where my puppies go. In most cases we have become friends and visit on a fairly regular basis for the most part.....there are always a couple exceptions. We have formed a trusting relationship!! I love the pictures I receive as well as all the updates. We have cried together and we have laughed together. Would I demand a puppy/dog be returned to me from one of these people whom I trust....NO. However, I also know that I would know ahead of time if anything were going on with my dogs because most of my pet people actually do keep in touch with me.

If we breeders had in our contracts that we would give the buyers a new puppy without the return of the original...........I guarantee there would be people with forged health documents demanding that second puppy.......or third......or fourth........where would it end? There are just too many people working this scam and that. So the fact that the return of the sick puppy is in the contract, is for protection of the breeder.........and yes, I know that some less reputable breeders may use that same clause as a loophole........and I am sorry for that. That is where the buyer is responsible for doing their research when looking for a breeder to buy their future puppy from.

All I can say is that if you do not like the contract that the breeder, that you choose, has, discuss the matter with them. A reasonable request that can be mutually agreed upon can be added to any contract. However, please remember, the breeder does not have to sell you their puppy......................I turn down many when I have a puppy / dog available for a new home. If I cannot keep a puppy / dog for any reason, I want to find a perfect placement for that puppy / dog..................if that placement, that I feel is perfect, does not come along, that puppy / dog can stay with me, forever if need be.

I do not know what else to say concerning this matter to help you understand. *My* contract is written for the sole purpose of protecting *my dogs* and me. With the internet everyone and anyone can do a little research and learn all the correct things to say and / or do to get a puppy. I have to protect my dogs from these people........no one else is going to protect my dogs.....my dogs are where my responsibility lies. If I am not comfortable with a buyer, I do not need to sell to that buyer. It should be the same for the buyers.............if they are not comfortable with a breeder........move on to another.
[/B][/QUOTE]


This is a great post, Sharon, and so true. 
As far as negotiating, I don't see anything wrong in asking for something if the buyer wants and the breeder believes the buyer
will live up to the agreement, but I do believe the contract should always be in the best interest of the pup.


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Aug 8 2009, 01:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815150


> I would love it if we did have that perfect world. I hate the idea of "negociating" the life and care of a living being. I adopt for life and for love and expect the person who bred my baby to feel the same way--so only the dog's welfare is involved. B)[/B]



I have to be honest with you. Anyone that starts trying to make demands for this and that and trying to negotiate every little thing usually sends up a red flag for me. Simply put...That person does not get my puppy. I do not need the heartache and the worry about why they "really" want my puppy and if they are truly going to do right with my puppy. I know my puppies personality......I know what he/she needs to prosper.........I know the parents and their lines. If someone starts questioning and demanding right from the beginning, I have to wonder/question if that person will have my puppy's best interests at heart. As I said in an earlier post.....A reasonable request mutually agreed upon can be added to a contract but no breeder wants a high maintenance puppy buyer :smheat:


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (Cosy @ Aug 8 2009, 01:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815154


> As far as negotiating, I don't see anything wrong in asking for something if the buyer wants and the breeder believes the buyer
> will live up to the agreement, but I do believe the contract should always be in the best interest of the pup.[/B]


I did not see your post before I responded..........we are thinking along the same lines though. :biggrin:


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## I found nemo

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 11:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814960


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 7 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814811





> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 11:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814670





> QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Aug 7 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814666





> QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491





> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Lisa, either the AMA or AKC (can't recall which) requires a 2 year health guarantee. I'm sure someone here will post which one.
[/B][/QUOTE]


StarsMom -- here's the facts:

1. NEITHER THE AMA NOR THE AKC REQUIRES ANY BREEDER TO GIVE ANY HEALTH GUARANTEE.

*OK, but I was sure I had read that one of the sites. Perhaps it was some guide to breeders instead. I stand corrected, but I don't need to be screamed at via a post. :forgive me: All CAPS is not necessary, I read just fine.
*
2. Every contract is negotiable.

*I didn't realize this, I was led to believe a breeder had a standard contract and went by it. I'm sure this tidbit of information will be of value to many.
*
3. A contract is only as good as either party's willingness to enforce it.

*Of course, that's common sense*.

4. The real reason why many who have read this post have not responded is because quite frankly it's really none of your business what any other person's contract says (especially on a public forum).

*You must have had hundreds of PM's regarding this thread to make this blanket statement. I thought this forum was a place to exchange ideas and learn, not just a mutual admiration society - apparently I am mistaken. Up until now the thread had not turned personal, but you managed to do that. For the fourth time, the intent of the thread was to learn the way various breeders worded their contracts, and perhaps dealt with any issues had they arose. It was no in any way meant or intended as smear campaign on breeders of integrity. Therefore, looking at the various contracts would have nothing to do with being honest or not by either party. Since this thread has had over 2000 hits, I'd venture to say I'm not alone in my interest in this topic. As I posted before it would be a place to start - if one is not comfortable with the contract they would move on.
*
Comparing contracts is meaningless and does not distinguish between honest and dishonest people (whether breeder or buyer). If you are considering buying a dog, ask to see the dog, ask to see the sale contract, read it, ask questions, whatever. But, most importantly, ask yourself if you are getting a good feeling about the person you are buying from.

*If I was considering buying a fluff at this time, the negativity this thread has generated probably wouldn't get me very far with any of the breeders on SM so I'd have to look elsewhere and hope for the best. 

To the mods: olice: 
Like a bored pup chasing it's tail, this thread is going nowhere, so you might as well close it down. I tried to get something fresh going here - thanks for all the bytes devoted to it. M
*
MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think you have every RIGHT to ask any questions and have them answered and to anyone who would say "It's none of your business " well I wouldn't even waste a breath on them. Let alone buy a pup from them .... JMHO


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## Vanitysmom

QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Aug 8 2009, 05:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815239


> I think you have every RIGHT to ask any questions and have them answered and to anyone who would say "It's none of your business " well I wouldn't even waste a breath on them. Let alone buy a pup from them .... JMHO [/B]


I believe that Mary's post pertained to contracts only. It has been pointed out at least a couple of times throughout this thread that from a legal sense as well as in a practical sense, that comparing different contracts from different breeders is basically an exercise in futility.


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## bellaratamaltese

Personally, I did not respond in this post because I'm new and my 'contract' is a work-in-progress. I definitely did not want to have it up for inspection. This thread was usefull though because it did make me take a second look at it and I have some changes to make (but I still don't want to share my contract with the forum) Does this make me a 'bad' breeder? No. I really don't think so.


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## roxybaby22

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Aug 8 2009, 08:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815266


> Personally, I did not respond in this post because I'm new and my 'contract' is a work-in-progress. I definitely did not want to have it up for inspection. This thread was usefull though because it did make me take a second look at it and I have some changes to make (but I still don't want to share my contract with the forum) Does this make me a 'bad' breeder? No. I really don't think so.[/B]


I don't think so either!


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## Tina

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Aug 8 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815266


> Personally, I did not respond in this post because I'm new and my 'contract' is a work-in-progress. I definitely did not want to have it up for inspection. This thread was usefull though because it did make me take a second look at it and I have some changes to make (but I still don't want to share my contract with the forum) Does this make me a 'bad' breeder? No. I really don't think so.[/B]


 :goodpost: Sometimes what someone thinks something says, isn't what it says. To point this out a basketball player was out in other countries. He was missing having a McDonald's hamberger. He finally stayed in a hotel that had a McDonald's in it. He went and ordered his hamberger. They asked what he wanted on it. He said he wanted only ketchup on it. When he got back to the room he opened his hamberger to eat it. He noticed that the only thing on the hamberger was two buns and ketchup. People understand things differently.
Tina


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## MaryH

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 8 2009, 07:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815261


> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Aug 8 2009, 05:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815239





> I think you have every RIGHT to ask any questions and have them answered and to anyone who would say "It's none of your business " well I wouldn't even waste a breath on them. Let alone buy a pup from them .... JMHO [/B]


I believe that Mary's post pertained to contracts only. It has been pointed out at least a couple of times throughout this thread that from a legal sense as well as in a practical sense, that comparing different contracts from different breeders is basically an exercise in futility.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks, Sharon.

Marsha, I'm just getting home from a long day and reading this thread. I apologize to you for what I said. As I reread it, you have every right to feel that I was singling you out. That was not my intent and my choice of words was very poor. What I should have said is that nobody should be offended that others choose not to post their contracts/guarantees on a public forum since a seller could write a contract one way for one buyer and another way for another buyer, tailoring each contract to specific situations. When people start posting their contracts, whether buyer or seller, all of a sudden we as buyers start scrambling to compare our contract to another contract from the same breeder, wonder why someone got something that we didn't get, get upset, feel cheated, call the breeder, and on and on.

Whether buyer or seller, there is a scam artist on every corner. Puppy buyers with less than pure intentions go to the internet, read all about what good breeders look for in potential owners, learn all the right answers and lead a breeder to believe they are the perfect pet owner only for the breeder to later find out that their beloved little puppy sold on a limited registration has been bred to every poodle across America and has produced hundreds of designer dogs. On the flip side, unethical breeders come to a site like this, read all about what potential buyers are going to ask, learn all the right answers, give you a what you think is a great dog and a great contract and the first time you run into an issue the breeder is nowhere to be found. Or you go to a breeder's website, see beautiful puppies and a fabulous contract, call the breeder, strike a deal, drive 500 miles to pick up your new bundle of love and get handed a contract completely different than what is on the breeder's website. Chances are you will buy the puppy anyway. Lastly, contracts change with the times. Given the current economy, today's homebuyer is signing a completely different purchase and sale agreement than what anybody signed fifteen months ago. While the internet provides great information the pitfall is that what is put out there today can be outdated by tomorrow.

MaryH


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## godiva goddess

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 10:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814664


> QUOTE (Snow Man's Mom @ Aug 6 2009, 01:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814409





> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 6 2009, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814306





> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 6 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814293





> Again, the purpose of this thread was to share, and learn the differences of breeders contracts.[/B]


It is futile and frankly, moot, to "compare" breeders contracts. Each legal contract is tailored specifically for an individual buyer. There is no "one size fits all" contract since no 2 dog, and no 2 buyer is exactly identical. While there may be similarities within the industry, each contract should be drawn up to be enforceable based on the specific needs/requirements of that buyer and dog. In law school, I have studied plenty of contracts and were never told to "compare/contrast" one K to another. LOL. It just doesnt even make sense. :confused1: That is *not *how you learn about contracts. What you should do is to READ *YOUR* contract carefully, and think it over, consult others, ASK plenty of questions to your breeder, *BEFORE* signing. If you want, consult an attorney beforehand.

From a legal standpoint, your attempt to analyze a breeder's contract and "compare/contrast" it with another person's contract is quite the legal fiction.
[/B][/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is it's OK for a breeder to make up his/her contractual rules as they see fit. I can see how that can get confusing from one sale to the next, and not make it a fair playing field. If you purchase a new auto the manufacturer has guaranteed it for a certain amount of miles to be problematic free for major parts IE. transmission, etc. providing the buyer does their part in meeting the required maintenance schedule. Everyone wants that guarantee, but according to your statement it would be OK for the manufacturer to change it from one sale to the next. 

In the legal world it may not be the way you learn about contracts, but in the dog world comparing breeder's contracts would be just one avenue to begin the perfect breeder and pup search. If the contracts were published up front, one could read it before any contact be made and it would allow the prospective buyer to decide then if any further contact were to take place. The goal of this thread is to see how breeders word theirs.

I have heard many breeders make this statement...........

"My contract is NOT written in stone." So what you are saying is how I gather it to be also.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Do these breeders make up their contracts with the buyers as they go along?


QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491


> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


What did you have in mind that required negotiating?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I am sorry Marsha for the late reply, I didnt realize you were asking me a question, I didnt see your reply at first because it was within the quotations.

I think you have good intentions but you are also really confused about the* essence* of a LEGAL CONTRACT. I mean, isnt that your premise? You want to know what recourse a buyer has to *bind *the breeder(which ever breeder) in case things go bad, right? 

Your reasoning behind your analogy is incorrect. Purchasing a car is NOT the same as buying a dog. While the law views dogs as property so both (cars and dogs) are governed by the Uniform Commercial Code (if the state adopts it.) But, A car dealer's merchant "Warranties" for an automobile is NOT the same as one offered for dogs. While some states laws require car dealers to offer certain warranties, the reasoning behind that is more for public policy and safety (and in some cases, strict products liability.)* It does NOT apply to the sale of dogs, so your comparison is wrong*. The reason why you are wrong is because as I said before, the essence of a legal contract is to bind both parties to the *specific item at issue*. A car is not the same as a dog, and your dog is not the same as my dog, so your contract is not the same as my contract. Get it? Another legal concept that is pertinent is that just because it is a written agreement does not make it a legally *enforceable *contract. That is why comparing other people's contracts is a legally futile. What is enforceable for other parties is not necessarily enforceable for you, ESPECIALLY because your dog is different from other's dog. Is this making sense? 

I agree with you that a prospective buyer should be as educated as possible regarding breeders but I dont think your idea is the best way. It is actually as hazardous as telling someone to google a sample "Will" off the internet and use it as his/her own. Each legal document needs to be drafted for THAT individual, on THAT occasion, for THAT item at issue. Do you get what I am saying? I think the best way for a prospective buyer to learn is to speak to AS MANY breeders as possible, and ASK each breeder questions. That is the most helpful route. 

I think your thread stemmed from a good place and you wanted to help prospective buyers. But, the proper way for a buyer to protect his/her own legal rights and recourse is to ASK that breeder many questions and think it over before signing. I also want to add I applaud you for being a good sport because I know there have been some disagreements with you on this thread, myself included. But, you handled yourself well and I give you kudos for that. I hope you dont take anything I write personally because I promise you that is not my intention at all.  

Take Care.

PS- and to answer your other question, YES, ideally a new contract should be drafted each and every time for a new transaction. Whether in sale of dogs or an employment contract. Yes there are often "standard" forms of sale in some industries and there can be many similarities from one K to the next, but the safest route would be to draft a specifically tailored one (or to edit it carefully to fit the parties at issue.) Many attorneys run the risk of malpractice when they get lazy and just "re use" older contract forms, it is just very dangerous. Second, I am not sure what you mean by "fair playing field." Unfortunately, in life, very few things are "fair." Buyers who ask questions, think over their contracts, will naturally be more equipped to ask tougher questions to his/her breeders. It is up to each person to do his/her homework. The law does try to furnish justice but usually the courts will follow the contract signed as it, unless it is found to be unconscionable. We are each responsible for our own actions, what is "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 8 2009, 05:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815283


> QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Aug 8 2009, 07:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815261





> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Aug 8 2009, 05:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815239





> I think you have every RIGHT to ask any questions and have them answered and to anyone who would say "It's none of your business " well I wouldn't even waste a breath on them. Let alone buy a pup from them .... JMHO [/B]


I believe that Mary's post pertained to contracts only. It has been pointed out at least a couple of times throughout this thread that from a legal sense as well as in a practical sense, that comparing different contracts from different breeders is basically an exercise in futility.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks, Sharon.

Marsha, I'm just getting home from a long day and reading this thread. I apologize to you for what I said. As I reread it, you have every right to feel that I was singling you out. That was not my intent and my choice of words was very poor. What I should have said is that nobody should be offended that others choose not to post their contracts/guarantees on a public forum since a seller could write a contract one way for one buyer and another way for another buyer, tailoring each contract to specific situations. When people start posting their contracts, whether buyer or seller, all of a sudden we as buyers start scrambling to compare our contract to another contract from the same breeder, wonder why someone got something that we didn't get, get upset, feel cheated, call the breeder, and on and on.

Whether buyer or seller, there is a scam artist on every corner. Puppy buyers with less than pure intentions go to the internet, read all about what good breeders look for in potential owners, learn all the right answers and lead a breeder to believe they are the perfect pet owner only for the breeder to later find out that their beloved little puppy sold on a limited registration has been bred to every poodle across America and has produced hundreds of designer dogs. On the flip side, unethical breeders come to a site like this, read all about what potential buyers are going to ask, learn all the right answers, give you a what you think is a great dog and a great contract and the first time you run into an issue the breeder is nowhere to be found. Or you go to a breeder's website, see beautiful puppies and a fabulous contract, call the breeder, strike a deal, drive 500 miles to pick up your new bundle of love and get handed a contract completely different than what is on the breeder's website. Chances are you will buy the puppy anyway. Lastly, contracts change with the times. Given the current economy, today's homebuyer is signing a completely different purchase and sale agreement than what anybody signed fifteen months ago. While the internet provides great information the pitfall is that what is put out there today can be outdated by tomorrow.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Mary,

Apology accepted. "...my choice of words was very poor." You and Barack -  I thought breeders had a standard contract that was the way it went. I thought it would be interesting and helpful to see how different breeders worded theirs. If you (buyer) didn't like the terms move on. 

My intentions of the this thread were to get the health guarantees out in the light. I didn't set out to hold breeders paws to the fire. I guess in some ways we have all been able to learn something from this thread.


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## Starsmom

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 8 2009, 06:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815289


> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 10:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814664





> QUOTE (Snow Man's Mom @ Aug 6 2009, 01:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814409





> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 6 2009, 11:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814306





> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 6 2009, 11:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814293





> Again, the purpose of this thread was to share, and learn the differences of breeders contracts.[/B]


It is futile and frankly, moot, to "compare" breeders contracts. Each legal contract is tailored specifically for an individual buyer. There is no "one size fits all" contract since no 2 dog, and no 2 buyer is exactly identical. While there may be similarities within the industry, each contract should be drawn up to be enforceable based on the specific needs/requirements of that buyer and dog. In law school, I have studied plenty of contracts and were never told to "compare/contrast" one K to another. LOL. It just doesnt even make sense. :confused1: That is *not *how you learn about contracts. What you should do is to READ *YOUR* contract carefully, and think it over, consult others, ASK plenty of questions to your breeder, *BEFORE* signing. If you want, consult an attorney beforehand.

From a legal standpoint, your attempt to analyze a breeder's contract and "compare/contrast" it with another person's contract is quite the legal fiction.
[/B][/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is it's OK for a breeder to make up his/her contractual rules as they see fit. I can see how that can get confusing from one sale to the next, and not make it a fair playing field. If you purchase a new auto the manufacturer has guaranteed it for a certain amount of miles to be problematic free for major parts IE. transmission, etc. providing the buyer does their part in meeting the required maintenance schedule. Everyone wants that guarantee, but according to your statement it would be OK for the manufacturer to change it from one sale to the next. 

In the legal world it may not be the way you learn about contracts, but in the dog world comparing breeder's contracts would be just one avenue to begin the perfect breeder and pup search. If the contracts were published up front, one could read it before any contact be made and it would allow the prospective buyer to decide then if any further contact were to take place. The goal of this thread is to see how breeders word theirs.

I have heard many breeders make this statement...........

"My contract is NOT written in stone." So what you are saying is how I gather it to be also.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Do these breeders make up their contracts with the buyers as they go along?


QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491


> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


What did you have in mind that required negotiating?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I am sorry Marsha for the late reply, I didnt realize you were asking me a question, I didnt see your reply at first because it was within the quotations.

I think you have good intentions but you are also really confused about the* essence* of a LEGAL CONTRACT. I mean, isnt that your premise? You want to know what recourse a buyer has to *bind *the breeder(which ever breeder) in case things go bad, right? 

Your reasoning behind your analogy is incorrect. Purchasing a car is NOT the same as buying a dog. While the law views dogs as property so both (cars and dogs) are governed by the Uniform Commercial Code (if the state adopts it.) But, A car dealer's merchant "Warranties" for an automobile is NOT the same as one offered for dogs. While some states laws require car dealers to offer certain warranties, the reasoning behind that is more for public policy and safety (and in some cases, strict products liability.)* It does NOT apply to the sale of dogs, so your comparison is wrong*. The reason why you are wrong is because as I said before, the essence of a legal contract is to bind both parties to the *specific item at issue*. A car is not the same as a dog, and your dog is not the same as my dog, so your contract is not the same as my contract. Get it? Another legal concept that is pertinent is that just because it is a written agreement does not make it a legally *enforceable *contract. That is why comparing other people's contracts is a legally futile. What is enforceable for other parties is not necessarily enforceable for you, ESPECIALLY because your dog is different from other's dog. Is this making sense? 

I agree with you that a prospective buyer should be as educated as possible regarding breeders but I dont think your idea is the best way. It is actually as hazardous as telling someone to google a sample "Will" off the internet and use it as his/her own. Each legal document needs to be drafted for THAT individual, on THAT occasion, for THAT item at issue. Do you get what I am saying? I think the best way for a prospective buyer to learn is to speak to AS MANY breeders as possible, and ASK each breeder questions. That is the most helpful route. 

I think your thread stemmed from a good place and you wanted to help prospective buyers. But, the proper way for a buyer to protect his/her own legal rights and recourse is to ASK that breeder many questions and think it over before signing. I also want to add I applaud you for being a good sport because I know there have been some disagreements with you on this thread, myself included. But, you handled yourself well and I give you kudos for that. I hope you dont take anything I write personally because I promise you that is not my intention at all.  

Take Care.

PS- and to answer your other question, YES, ideally a new contract should be drafted each and every time for a new transaction. Whether in sale of dogs or an employment contract. Yes there are often "standard" forms of sale in some industries and there can be many similarities from one K to the next, but the safest route would be to draft a specifically tailored one (or to edit it carefully to fit the parties at issue.) Many attorneys run the risk of malpractice when they get lazy and just "re use" older contract forms, it is just very dangerous. Second, I am not sure what you mean by "fair playing field." Unfortunately, in life, very few things are "fair." Buyers who ask questions, think over their contracts, will naturally be more equipped to ask tougher questions to his/her breeders. It is up to each person to do his/her homework. The law does try to furnish justice but usually the courts will follow the contract signed as it, unless it is found to be unconscionable. We are each responsible for our own actions, what is "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.
[/B][/QUOTE]

No hard feelings here. Not only did everyone learn that breeders can/do make individual health guarantees, we got a free lesson in contract law! :biggrin: I can see buying a fluff butt these days can be a daunting task.


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 2 2009, 03:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812783


> QUOTE (aggiemom99 @ Aug 2 2009, 07:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812667





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812589





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812550





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 09:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812549





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 06:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812479





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 1 2009, 05:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812469





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Aug 1 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812432





> Clarie is from Rhapsody and hers says, "The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven congenital life-threatening health conditions. If such a problem should occur *the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available."*


[/B]

Well, "equal quality", could mean the same congenital life-threatening defect. That would be "equal quality". 
So you return a puppy, and receive another, with the same defect? 

I'm also interested in this thread, and how certain breeders "word" their contracts, as well as stand by them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Quality referred to here is obviously the breeding/pedigree, perhaps same type of coat, etc. It doens't mean another puppy with a defect. That would be ridiculous.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, yes, I realize that. However, if there are congenital defects, and I'm assuming from the same breeding/pedigree program, then who's to say. 

As the breeder may not be testing, so you are getting yet, another pup with life-threatening issues down the road. I'm certainly not talking about "coats".

I had no idea, per the contract, "quality" meant pedigree/coat. I was focused on health/testing/ and a _healthy pedigree.

_And yep, you're right. It would be ridiculous to pass on, yet another dog, with the same defects, from the same line. Nope, that wouldn't happen, now would it?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Are you speaking of breeders in general or do you have an issue with Rhapsody's guarantee?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh goodness, NO. I'm not speaking of Rhapsody. Wasn't even aware they were an issue. Just speaking in general.
I haven't been on much, so if this thread was directed at Rhapsody, I'm out. As I said, just speaking in general.

I don't have a clue about Rhapsody. I'm actually wondering (to myself) where that came from.
I thought this thread was about Breeder's Health Guarantee. "Any" Breeder, not Rhapsody. What have I missed?
I don't even see, within the thread, where a breeder is named. 

I'll move on now. 

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 1 2009, 10:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=812569


> Well, again, the difference between a good breeder and one who simply produces pups. And yes, there are some show breeders who produce pups solely to sell. *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.* You could have a 10 year guarantee but its worthless if the breeder does not stand behind it. And to be 100% honest, I want a healthy dog from a healthy pedigree, not a 10 year guarantee. Why would you take a replacement if you realize you had purchased from a breeder that is not concerned for the health of their lines? I've had dogs with health problems, from outright genetic to just random to unfortunate congenital issues that have nothing to do with the quality of the breeding. The written contract has done NOTHING. The fact that in most of the cases the dogs were from excellent breeders meant my breeder cared and did the ethically right thing regardless of the time of the contract running out or not covering the issue.
> 
> *A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it.*[/B]


Yup, you are right on the money. "A guarantee is only as good as the person behind it". Very true.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have a Rhapsody baby too and my other fluff has Rhapsody lines. When Lexie was sick last year (which turned out primarily to be a UTI) Tonia spoke to me on the phone and was very concerned and caring (even though Lexie came from her assistant). She knows her lines and breeds not only for show but health as well. I cannot remember which year it was 2008 or 2007( or perhaps both), she was on the AMA health committee. I know there are other reputable breeders out there and if looking at pedigrees a lot of them has Rhapsody lines. She also does testing.

IMO Rhapsody is one of the most ethical and reputable breeders there is in the maltese world.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Please, do not misunderstand me. I was speaking in general. I do not know Rhapsody. I was not referring to them. 

I simply quoted Sher, to point out my thoughts on ANY breeder's contract. Her's just happened to mention her breeder's contract,
which is the norm. 

We have many excellent breeders out there. We also have a few "shady" ones, along with the BYB's, and mills.

I'm a bit pissy, at the moment, over all the dogs in our shelters. I'm pissed at the mills, and BYB's. I'm pissed at the
contracts thru pet stores, and BYB's. 

I took this thread, as discussing "contracts" thru breeders. Well, to me it's anyone who breeds. I didn't realize we were only
discussing show breeders.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Perhaps I should add the word "healthy" to this part of my health clause ...

*the breeder will take the puppy back and replace her with a "healthy" puppy of equal quality as soon as the breeder has one available

*I have never been questioned as such so I had not thought of it the way you did, 3MaltMom.

In my mind it would be silly have a "health guarantee" and then give an unhealthy replacement puppy. Also, my contract would still be in affect with the replacement puppy so the owner would be covered anyway. Before I would give a replacement puppy, I would have have a new contract signed for the new puppy. In almost 20 years of breeding, I have only had to replace one puppy due to this clause and I chose to give them their money back. 

Even reputable breeders who health test can have issues come up on occassion. We try to do the best we can but technology has not allowed us to breed the perfect dog yet. If the goal of never having a single health issue was plausible then think of how many "people" would benefit from this let alone our Maltese babies 

Thank you, 3MaltMom, for pointing out the vagueness of this part of my contract. It certainly will be easy enough to correct.

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 7 2009, 10:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814670


> QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Aug 7 2009, 07:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814666





> QUOTE (Purple-peep @ Aug 6 2009, 05:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814491





> I would also not hesitate to negotiate a contract with a breeder. Most that I spoke with, were more than willing to work with me on that.[/B]


QUOTE


> What did you have in mind that required negotiating?[/B]


I think mostly what could be negotiable in a contract is the length of a health guarantee -- For instance, 2 year instead of 1 year. My contract for Preston offers a 2 year guarantee.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Lisa, either the AMA or AKC (can't recall which) requires a 2 year health guarantee. I'm sure someone here will post which one.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Neither have the authority to implement a required Health Guarantee let alone the length.

The AKC does not have a formal breeders "Code of Ethics". The AMA's Code of Ethics is posted on their web site www.americanmaltese.org.

Most choose 1 to 2 years due to the fact that beyond that age it becomes very difficult to differentiate between congenial and acquired health issues. I believe most reputable breeders would honor their contract beyond the arbitrary pre decided length of the Health Guarantee if a health issue arose that could be definitely proven to be congenial in nature. I know I would.

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Aug 6 2009, 10:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=814293


> This breeder does DNA testing,[/B]


PLEASE READ THIS!

There is only one DNA test applicable to Maltese - for GSD (Glycogen Storage Deficiency) - and it would only be used as a breeder tool as "affected" puppies would die very young.

Any claim to DNA testing is for the purpose of identifying parentage ONLY.

There is no relevant DNA HEALTH TESTS for Maltese!!!!!!!!!!!!

So when you read "We support AKC DNA TESTING" ... this is for proving parentage only.

Some other breeds have a few and I mean a few DNA Health tests, but these do not apply to Maltese.

I hope this clears up some confusion.
Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


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## myfairlacy

This has been a really informative thread...I guess the most important thing is being able to trust the breeder you are buying from and knowing that they will do the right thing. It can just be so difficult to get to know someone well enough to know whether or not you can really trust them or not though and I've seen so many people "screwed" when their dog got sick..however my experience has been mostly with yorkie pet owners and most of those people did not buy from reputable show breeders unfortunately. It just really pays to do your homework and research and get to know a breeder before you buy from them.


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (theboyz @ Aug 8 2009, 08:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815080


> OK, well I have to disagree as that is one thing in a contract that would draw me to a breeder. Knowing that they would stand behind their dogs to that degree.
> Can you imagine facing that situation of having to give the pup back or say nothing!!!!! I have known people in that situation and have known a very well known breeder/show person that did just that.....demanded the pup back.
> 
> First of all, I am not sure HOW someone could MAKE you return the dog. Possession is key. The only way the breeder can enforce the contract is by suing the new owner. The breeder is also at a disadvantage in this situation.
> 
> Would break my heart. So a contract that says what it says, means just that and don't be so sure that you can keep your beloved pup and get a new one also just because it is the "right thing". What is WRITTEN is what I would go by.
> 
> The reason breeders have this clause is to have the "right" to help protect the dog that they brought into the world. Many people do not have the MEANS to correct some health issues. Not all life threatening health issues have to have a "terminal" result. Sometimes the breeder might be able to better care for the puppy/dog than the new owner. Breeders have this clause so that they have to be involved in the care of the this possibly terminally ill dog. What reputable breeder would want to pull a dog out of its home for no reason? The only way I would truly ask for the dog back is if the new owner could not care for the dog properly and as a result the dog would die if left with the new owner AND I felt fairly certain I could save the dog's life.
> 
> We are talking about a lot of money and investment of the heart to just think "Oh they will do the right thing".
> Don't be so sure.
> Anyway, new buyers, read the contracts, have EVERYTHING written to your satisfaction.
> 
> I would be THRILLED to see a contract that could protect the breeder, the new owner and most of all the puppy's best interest. Writing a contract to accomplish all of this is very DIFFICULT to do. I do understand your concerns, but it is hard to have a perfect contract that protects everyone.
> 
> Tonia Holibaugh
> Rhapsody Maltese[/B]


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Aug 8 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815266


> Personally, I did not respond in this post because I'm new and my 'contract' is a work-in-progress. I definitely did not want to have it up for inspection. This thread was usefull though because it did make me take a second look at it and I have some changes to make (but I still don't want to share my contract with the forum) Does this make me a 'bad' breeder? No. I really don't think so.[/B]



I think EVERY breeder's contract is a "work in progress" as we should always strive to be "better" ... 

Tonia


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## Rhapsody Maltese

Here is the _current _basic format I use to for each of my pet placement contracts.

I do vary the contract slightly based on the dog and the new owner.

I am not sure if this is what you wanted to see Starsmom ... but I do understand the original purpose of the thread and I want to help encourage the discussion of this topic to help all of us 

Tonia Holibaugh
RhapsodyMaltese

************************************************************************

Any breech of this contract by the purchaser will result in liquidated damages of four times the purchase price per incident.


*******************************************************************************

The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven, congenital, life-threatening health conditions.

Here is what this clause means to me

proven - this means your vet has definitively identified through diagnostic testing the exact nature of the health issue - not that you vets "thinks" this is what is wrong with the dog/puppy.

congenital - means the puppy was born with this health issue ie it was not acquired after it was whelped.

life-threatening - means the puppy WILL die prematurely at a young age without extensive treatment due to this proven, congenital health issue.


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## myfairlacy

QUOTE (Rhapsody Maltese @ Aug 9 2009, 11:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815847


> Here is the _current _basic format I use to for each of my pet placement contracts.
> 
> I do vary the contract slightly based on the dog and the new owner.
> 
> I am not sure if this is what you wanted to see Starsmom ... but I do understand the original purpose of the thread and I want to help encourage the discussion of this topic to help all of us
> 
> Tonia Holibaugh
> RhapsodyMaltese
> 
> ************************************************************************
> 
> Any breech of this contract by the purchaser will result in liquidated damages of four times the purchase price per incident.
> 
> 
> *******************************************************************************
> 
> The breeder provides a health guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age against any proven, congenital, life-threatening health conditions.
> 
> Here is what this clause means to me
> 
> proven - this means your vet has definitively identified through diagnostic testing the exact nature of the health issue - not that you vets "thinks" this is what is wrong with the dog/puppy.
> 
> congenital - means the puppy was born with this health issue ie it was not acquired after it was whelped.
> 
> life-threatening - means the puppy WILL die prematurely at a young age without extensive treatment due to this proven, congenital health issue.[/B]


Thankyou for posting your contract. I've always been wary of the term "life threatening" in a contract because a lot of people could probably argue whether or not some health problems definitely kill a dog or not. I know a reputable breeder has the best interest of the dog at heart and would honor their contract if a serious health issue were to arise. However, I have known of unethical breeders that have thrown in the term "life threatening" as a loophole...I've witnessed a couple breeders (Yorkie..not maltese) try to argue that a liver shunt puppy did not need to have surgery to correct it and that an appropriate diet would have been sufficient. Of course we, and any reputable breeder, would KNOW that the puppy needed that surgery in order to live a long, healthy life. But breeders like the ones I just mentioned might try to argue that the puppy may not die just because it has something such as a liver shunt and is therfor not necessarily life threatening and might be able to get out of honoring their contract. Also, what about congenital health issues that won't lead to death but would cause a lot of pain without expensive treatment such as severe luxating patellas? What if a puppy already had grade 3 or 4 luxating patellas, in which case injury isn't likely and genetics is most likely the cause. The puppy won't die from luxating patellas but would be in pain with an expensive surgery to correct it. What about cases such as this?

Sorry, I'm not trying to challenge your contract at all..I think it's a good one and I know you are a very reputable breeder and have proven yourself to be so I'm not really questioning you. I just wanted to throw out a couple points for discussion and thought. As I said a few posts above, I know it's most important to buy from a reputable breeder because they will do the right thing by the puppy regardless of how they word their contract.


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## theboyz

Tonia, thank you so much for your input.
I rescue, foster and fight byb's and puppy millers. I have contact with different owners that have had problems with pups.
One couple, my husband and I sat and talked with, both in tears as their Malt at 6 mo's old was diagnosed with liver issues and could not hear!!!
The breeder wanted to take her back and give them a new pup. They wondered what would happen to their baby and the breeder said "Oh I will more than likely keep her".......right!!!!!!
They could not give up this sweet baby, under any circumstance. No refund or new puppy were offered if the sick pup was not returned.
I have talked and talked with this breeder, sent her all kinds of info and she will not budge. My mail is returned, my email blocked and my calls never answered.

I hope that this thread will help those that are looking for Maltese, or any pup, do their research and ask questions and find the good breeders.
Hearing about the bad ones can only help to educate folks as to what they may encounter.

We are fortunate to have such well respected breeders, knowledge and caring, take time to respond to this first step in getting their forever baby.


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## Starsmom

Tonia, Thank you, thank you, a hundred times over for posting your basic contract!! :clap: The is truly an example of what this thread's intent is all about! 


Marsha, About that breeder....have you posted a review at the local level in Google and Yahoo!? Another place to go is http://www.ripoffreport.com/ - she may be able to block you from direct contact, but she cannot stop you from having a voice for these fluffs.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 5 2009, 03:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813944


> I think we need a science lesson stuck in this thread.
> 
> Congenital means existing/present at birth or acquired in the uterus during development and not through heredity. So an example of a congenital defect could be central diabetes insipidus where the dog has a slight defect in the pituitary gland, but in most breeds this is not genetic. A congenital defect does not necessarily mean a breeder is breeding unhealthy dogs or not concerned for genetic health. It is one of those things that can happen.
> 
> Genetic refers to something controlled by the genes passed on from the parents and recombined to form the puppy's genetic make up. You can have 2 seemingly healthy parents produce a problem when their genes are combined. In our breed where we don't have genetic testing available for things like liver shunt, GME, and luxating patella, we are stuck with working backwards from an affected dog to try to eliminate the issue. Unfortunately, somebody has to own that affected dog.
> 
> In either case, it is not whether the breeder has produced a congenital or genetic defect, it is what they do to prevent it and how they react when something pops up.
> 
> You also have to accept, to some degree, that some problems are "acceptable". A grade 1 patella does not prohibit a dog from being a good pet or doing obedience. It may or may not need surgery one day. MVD does not mean you have a sick dog or a dog who will not live its normal lifespan. In some breeds like Maltese with a certain head shape, some degree of hydrocephalus is normal. Some things are so saturated in our breed we have to understand and accept that while helping our breeders be aware of what they have produced.[/B]


Jackie, "congenital" means acquired at birth but _may or may not _be genetic. Just wanted to clarify this as that word is likely in a lot of breeder's contracts .....

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=15599

"Congenital: Present at birth. A condition that is congenital is one that is present at birth. There are numerous uses of "congenital" in medicine. There are, for example, congenital abnormalities. (For more examples, see below.) 

Versus "genetic": One dictionary erroneously defines "congenital" as meaning: "Occurring prior to birth, due to parent's genetic input." Congenital does not mean genetic. Something that is congenital may or may not be genetic (inherited). For example, congenital syphilis is present at birth but is not genetic."


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## jmm

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 10 2009, 12:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815852


> Thankyou for posting your contract. I've always been wary of the term "life threatening" in a contract because a lot of people could probably argue whether or not some health problems definitely kill a dog or not. I know a reputable breeder has the best interest of the dog at heart and would honor their contract if a serious health issue were to arise. However, I have known of unethical breeders that have thrown in the term "life threatening" as a loophole...I've witnessed a couple breeders (Yorkie..not maltese) try to argue that a liver shunt puppy did not need to have surgery to correct it and that an appropriate diet would have been sufficient. Of course we, and any reputable breeder, would KNOW that the puppy needed that surgery in order to live a long, healthy life. But breeders like the ones I just mentioned might try to argue that the puppy may not die just because it has something such as a liver shunt and is therfor not necessarily life threatening and might be able to get out of honoring their contract.[/B]


Actually we don't all KNOW that surgery is needed for a shunt. Not all shunts are surgically correctable and not all shunts should be or require surgical correction. Dietary management is a better option in some cases, especially with Maltese where the shunts is often not the only problem with the liver. This matter is not up to the breeder, but rather up to the board certified specialist who should be handling the case. There are no blanket rules for surgically correcting shunts.


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 10 2009, 01:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815852


> Thankyou for posting your contract. I've always been wary of the term "life threatening" in a contract because a lot of people could probably argue whether or not some health problems definitely kill a dog or not. I know a reputable breeder has the best interest of the dog at heart and would honor their contract if a serious health issue were to arise. However, I have known of unethical breeders that have thrown in the term "life threatening" as a loophole...I've witnessed a couple breeders (Yorkie..not maltese) try to argue that a liver shunt puppy did not need to have surgery to correct it and that an appropriate diet would have been sufficient. Of course we, and any reputable breeder, would KNOW that the puppy needed that surgery in order to live a long, healthy life. But breeders like the ones I just mentioned might try to argue that the puppy may not die just because it has something such as a liver shunt and is therfor not necessarily life threatening and might be able to get out of honoring their contract. Also, what about congenital health issues that won't lead to death but would cause a lot of pain without expensive treatment such as severe luxating patellas? What if a puppy already had grade 3 or 4 luxating patellas, in which case injury isn't likely and genetics is most likely the cause. The puppy won't die from luxating patellas but would be in pain with an expensive surgery to correct it. What about cases such as this?
> 
> Sorry, I'm not trying to challenge your contract at all..I think it's a good one and I know you are a very reputable breeder and have proven yourself to be so I'm not really questioning you. I just wanted to throw out a couple points for discussion and thought. As I said a few posts above, I know it's most important to buy from a reputable breeder because they will do the right thing by the puppy regardless of how they word their contract.[/B]



I do not guarantee patellas. Period. All of my dogs' patellas are checked by my vet at EVERY visit. It is documented in their records. If I knowlingly had a dog with luxating patellas it would be disclosed to the prospective new owner, before I placed the dog. In all of my contracts, it requires that any dog/puppy I place be taken to a veterinarian in the first 72 hours. At that point, if a dog/puppy of mine was diagnosed with a luxating patella, that we missed, then I would either take the dog/puppy back or come to an agreement concerning the dog/puppy. How you handle each situation would vary as the age, activity level, degree of luxation and condition of the dog/puppy would be assessed on an individual basis.

Once the dog leaves our care, we cannot guarantee how the dog is cared for in its new home. It only takes one bad jump off the couch or one slight fall down a stair or two to injury a dogs patella joint. There are too many outside plausible causes for injury once the dog leaves our care for us to reasonably guarantee patellas.

Just because a dog has a grade 3 or 4 patella does not mean it will be in pain its whole life. This varies with each dog. When I was very new to Maltese, I bought a dog that had a grade 4 patella in one leg. She never had an issue with it and is now 13 years old and gets around prefectly fine. Was it due to an injury or genetics? I do not know. She did not produce dogs with patella issues. (this is a whole topic in itself).

It is very difficult to ascertain to the degree of heredibility versus injury when it comes to patellar luxation. If it is present in a young puppy, you would be suspect to the cause being congenital in nature. If the dog is 5 years old there is no way to tell unless you witnessed the injury.

I have had vets tell me that if it is congenital in nature then both legs would be affected. I disagree with this. I have witness generations of related dogs with a grade one in the dogs' left leg and not the right. I would guess that the presence of this in 3 generations would lead me to believe the inherent weakness was genetic.

Just as many of you claim, "when I see this clause ... I am leary that is a loophole" ... well ... let me tell you that this works both ways .... Our "words" can be used in ways we did not intend against us too. I had someone ask me to give them another puppy because their dog that they got from me had some bizarre digestive issue that was critically affecting the life of the dog. I had never heard of this but I believed her. I gave her another ($3500) puppy. I never got ANY documentation. The dog in question is still alive perfectly health and fine with the same owner .... After listening to her talk since then ... I bet the dog was literally starving to death ... because she did not feed this tiny (she is 3 to 3.5 pounds) in a consistant manner. Now because of this mystery diagnosis, the dog is being fed better food that the dog likes likes on a schedule and she is fine. Who knows the truth?

I could tell you ALL KINDS of stories of things that new owners do with their dogs and then want their money back because of something THEY caused. And of course they still want to keep their dog.

We breeders seem to be held liable for EVERYTHING regardless of what the new owners do .... 

When it comes to us as breeders buying or selling dogs and breeding out to other's males .... it is even more difficult to deal with health issues due to lack of health testing, weak or inconclusive available health testing, and the ability to prove where the problems are coming from and whether the health issues are congenital or acquired ... etc etc etc

At some point, I cannot see how breeders can be held responsible for every possible issue that can come up. The purpose of contracts is to outline what we are responsible for and for how long. I use a contract that I feel is reasonable for all parties. Again ... I would be thrilled to see a better version of my contract as I feel that nothing is perfect and everything can be improved upon.

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


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## MaryH

QUOTE (Rhapsody Maltese @ Aug 10 2009, 04:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816096


> Just because a dog has a grade 3 or 4 patella does not mean it will be in pain its whole life. This varies with each dog. When I was very new to Maltese, I bought a dog that had a grade 4 patella in one leg. She never had an issue with it and is now 13 years old and gets around prefectly fine. Was it due to an injury or genetics? I do not know. She did not produce dogs with patella issues. (this is a whole topic in itself).
> 
> Tonia Holibaugh
> Rhapsody Maltese[/B]


Thanks, Tonia, for another great post. So often when I read about someone having patella surgery done on their dog I start to wonder if way too many vets are recommending unnecessary surgery on patellas and way too many owners are getting sucked in without good cause. I was doing agility with one of my dogs several years ago and decided to bring along my recently-adopted 8 yr. old. He got right into the act and LOVED it, despite his horrible patellas. He never ever limped or acted as though he was in pain and I only allowed him to jump an 8" jump on grass or rubber floor (never on or off furniture). I spoke several times with my vet about his knees, he did not recommend surgery because he didn't think my dog was in pain and kept saying that I would know if/when he was. And he directed me to the following article .... Problem Patellas. 

MaryH


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## luvmyfurbaby

QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816128


> QUOTE (Rhapsody Maltese @ Aug 10 2009, 04:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816096





> Just because a dog has a grade 3 or 4 patella does not mean it will be in pain its whole life. This varies with each dog. When I was very new to Maltese, I bought a dog that had a grade 4 patella in one leg. She never had an issue with it and is now 13 years old and gets around prefectly fine. Was it due to an injury or genetics? I do not know. She did not produce dogs with patella issues. (this is a whole topic in itself).
> 
> Tonia Holibaugh
> Rhapsody Maltese[/B]


Thanks, Tonia, for another great post. So often when I read about someone having patella surgery done on their dog I start to wonder if way too many vets are recommending unnecessary surgery on patellas and way too many owners are getting sucked in without good cause. I was doing agility with one of my dogs several years ago and decided to bring along my recently-adopted 8 yr. old. He got right into the act and LOVED it, despite his horrible patellas. He never ever limped or acted as though he was in pain and I only allowed him to jump an 8" jump on grass or rubber floor (never on or off furniture). I spoke several times with my vet about his knees, he did not recommend surgery because he didn't think my dog was in pain and kept saying that I would know if/when he was. And he directed me to the following article .... Problem Patellas. 

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

I concur. Mia has 1 knee at grade 4 and the other at grade 3. My vet luxates it and it pops right back out. She told me not to worry unless I notice it is bothering her. That little girl runs and fly's up and down the stairs. (I don't let her jump off of anything) I don't know about putting her in agility like I wanted at first but she will not get surgery until I see that she is bothered.


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## allheart

QUOTE (LuvMyFurbaby @ Aug 10 2009, 06:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816149


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Aug 10 2009, 05:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816128





> QUOTE (Rhapsody Maltese @ Aug 10 2009, 04:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816096





> Just because a dog has a grade 3 or 4 patella does not mean it will be in pain its whole life. This varies with each dog. When I was very new to Maltese, I bought a dog that had a grade 4 patella in one leg. She never had an issue with it and is now 13 years old and gets around prefectly fine. Was it due to an injury or genetics? I do not know. She did not produce dogs with patella issues. (this is a whole topic in itself).
> 
> Tonia Holibaugh
> Rhapsody Maltese[/B]


Thanks, Tonia, for another great post. So often when I read about someone having patella surgery done on their dog I start to wonder if way too many vets are recommending unnecessary surgery on patellas and way too many owners are getting sucked in without good cause. I was doing agility with one of my dogs several years ago and decided to bring along my recently-adopted 8 yr. old. He got right into the act and LOVED it, despite his horrible patellas. He never ever limped or acted as though he was in pain and I only allowed him to jump an 8" jump on grass or rubber floor (never on or off furniture). I spoke several times with my vet about his knees, he did not recommend surgery because he didn't think my dog was in pain and kept saying that I would know if/when he was. And he directed me to the following article .... Problem Patellas. 

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

I concur. Mia has 1 knee at grade 4 and the other at grade 3. My vet luxates it and it pops right back out. She told me not to worry unless I notice it is bothering her. That little girl runs and fly's up and down the stairs. (I don't let her jump off of anything) I don't know about putting her in agility like I wanted at first but she will not get surgery until I see that she is bothered.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Boy this makes me feel so much better. My sweet Kara (RIP) had grade 4's in both of her precious knees. Our vet, who is an Ortho specialist, said he really tries not to operate on the little ones, to rest them, carpet the house completely, no steps, and she was on cosequin the rest of her life. Her knees never bothered her, she did beautiful. 

Now our girlfriend, who has a mix breed (more on the shitzu side) did the same care as we did, but unfortunately, her baby did need the surgery. She works at our vet's office and is doing wonderful post op.

So I guess it does vary from furbaby to furbaby. 

Dr. C. said without question the larger breeds need the surgery, but he really gives the little ones every chance not to have the surgery if at all possible.


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## myfairlacy

QUOTE (JMM @ Aug 10 2009, 11:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815982


> Actually we don't all KNOW that surgery is needed for a shunt. Not all shunts are surgically correctable and not all shunts should be or require surgical correction. Dietary management is a better option in some cases, especially with Maltese where the shunts is often not the only problem with the liver. This matter is not up to the breeder, but rather up to the board certified specialist who should be handling the case. There are no blanket rules for surgically correcting shunts.[/B]


The shunt story I used was just an example so I'm not here to debate treating liver shunt. Of course I know that not all shunts are operable, but in this case it was. And in situtations where a single shunt is operable, it is almost always better to do the surgery unless there are other factors involved. In this case, the puppy had an operable shunt and the specialist said it needed to be done yet the puppy's breeder and one other breeder wanted to argue that the puppy did not need the surgery.

QUOTE (Rhapsody Maltese @ Aug 10 2009, 03:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816096


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Aug 10 2009, 01:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=815852





> Thankyou for posting your contract. I've always been wary of the term "life threatening" in a contract because a lot of people could probably argue whether or not some health problems definitely kill a dog or not. I know a reputable breeder has the best interest of the dog at heart and would honor their contract if a serious health issue were to arise. However, I have known of unethical breeders that have thrown in the term "life threatening" as a loophole...I've witnessed a couple breeders (Yorkie..not maltese) try to argue that a liver shunt puppy did not need to have surgery to correct it and that an appropriate diet would have been sufficient. Of course we, and any reputable breeder, would KNOW that the puppy needed that surgery in order to live a long, healthy life. But breeders like the ones I just mentioned might try to argue that the puppy may not die just because it has something such as a liver shunt and is therfor not necessarily life threatening and might be able to get out of honoring their contract. Also, what about congenital health issues that won't lead to death but would cause a lot of pain without expensive treatment such as severe luxating patellas? What if a puppy already had grade 3 or 4 luxating patellas, in which case injury isn't likely and genetics is most likely the cause. The puppy won't die from luxating patellas but would be in pain with an expensive surgery to correct it. What about cases such as this?
> 
> Sorry, I'm not trying to challenge your contract at all..I think it's a good one and I know you are a very reputable breeder and have proven yourself to be so I'm not really questioning you. I just wanted to throw out a couple points for discussion and thought. As I said a few posts above, I know it's most important to buy from a reputable breeder because they will do the right thing by the puppy regardless of how they word their contract.[/B]



I do not guarantee patellas. Period. All of my dogs' patellas are checked by my vet at EVERY visit. It is documented in their records. If I knowlingly had a dog with luxating patellas it would be disclosed to the prospective new owner, before I placed the dog. In all of my contracts, it requires that any dog/puppy I place be taken to a veterinarian in the first 72 hours. At that point, if a dog/puppy of mine was diagnosed with a luxating patella, that we missed, then I would either take the dog/puppy back or come to an agreement concerning the dog/puppy. How you handle each situation would vary as the age, activity level, degree of luxation and condition of the dog/puppy would be assessed on an individual basis.

Once the dog leaves our care, we cannot guarantee how the dog is cared for in its new home. It only takes one bad jump off the couch or one slight fall down a stair or two to injury a dogs patella joint. There are too many outside plausible causes for injury once the dog leaves our care for us to reasonably guarantee patellas.

Just because a dog has a grade 3 or 4 patella does not mean it will be in pain its whole life. This varies with each dog. When I was very new to Maltese, I bought a dog that had a grade 4 patella in one leg. She never had an issue with it and is now 13 years old and gets around prefectly fine. Was it due to an injury or genetics? I do not know. She did not produce dogs with patella issues. (this is a whole topic in itself).

It is very difficult to ascertain to the degree of heredibility versus injury when it comes to patellar luxation. If it is present in a young puppy, you would be suspect to the cause being congenital in nature. If the dog is 5 years old there is no way to tell unless you witnessed the injury.

I have had vets tell me that if it is congenital in nature then both legs would be affected. I disagree with this. I have witness generations of related dogs with a grade one in the dogs' left leg and not the right. I would guess that the presence of this in 3 generations would lead me to believe the inherent weakness was genetic.

Just as many of you claim, "when I see this clause ... I am leary that is a loophole" ... well ... let me tell you that this works both ways .... Our "words" can be used in ways we did not intend against us too. I had someone ask me to give them another puppy because their dog that they got from me had some bizarre digestive issue that was critically affecting the life of the dog. I had never heard of this but I believed her. I gave her another ($3500) puppy. I never got ANY documentation. The dog in question is still alive perfectly health and fine with the same owner .... After listening to her talk since then ... I bet the dog was literally starving to death ... because she did not feed this tiny (she is 3 to 3.5 pounds) in a consistant manner. Now because of this mystery diagnosis, the dog is being fed better food that the dog likes likes on a schedule and she is fine. Who knows the truth?

I could tell you ALL KINDS of stories of things that new owners do with their dogs and then want their money back because of something THEY caused. And of course they still want to keep their dog.

We breeders seem to be held liable for EVERYTHING regardless of what the new owners do .... 

When it comes to us as breeders buying or selling dogs and breeding out to other's males .... it is even more difficult to deal with health issues due to lack of health testing, weak or inconclusive available health testing, and the ability to prove where the problems are coming from and whether the health issues are congenital or acquired ... etc etc etc

At some point, I cannot see how breeders can be held responsible for every possible issue that can come up. The purpose of contracts is to outline what we are responsible for and for how long. I use a contract that I feel is reasonable for all parties. Again ... I would be thrilled to see a better version of my contract as I feel that nothing is perfect and everything can be improved upon.

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thankyou for your response. Completely agree with you on luxating patellas. I just used that as an example as a non-lifethreatening but still potentially serious health issue. Both of my yorkies have luxating patellas. My male has bilateral grade 2 LPs. My female has a left grade 2 and right grade 3. Fortunately it has never bothered her or caused her any pain or limping so I have not ever considered surgery for her. Both dogs came from backyard breeders unfortunately and I do believe their LPs are most likely due to both genetics and all the jumping they do. So I completely understand a breeder not guaranteeing against patellas unless the puppy already had them before going to their new home. When I get another dog in the future, I plan to do a MUCH better job at training to not jump on and off furniture.

I also understand your other point...I know there are also unethical pet owners who would lie or do whatever just to get their money back or a free puppy. It would be nice if all pet owners and breeders were completely honest and trustworthy. 

The more I think about it...the majority of people buy from breeders that do not health screen or know their lines and these are the puppies that have a higher risk of having a major health issue anyway. And these breeders are most likely the ones who would purposely create loopholes or not honor their contract. Reputable breeders know their lines and health screen and do their best to prevent passing on any health issues so the chance of getting a puppy with a health issue is much lower...and it's these breeders who would most likely do the right thing if a health issue did arise. So moral to the story is...do your research and find a reputable breeder that health screens and that you can trust to do the right thing. And I would just hope that the majority of pet owners would be honest too and not take advantage of breeders that do the right thing.


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## tbullock

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Aug 3 2009, 08:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=813176


> when I was breeding Lhasas, I gave a lifetime health guarantee for genetic health conditions and would replace the dog or would pay the medical bills.[/B]


Pam Armstrong also offers a lifetime guarantee for genetic health conditions, and will replace the dog or if you keep it, she still refunds the price you paid for the dog....which of course you would probably pay that or more in medical bills, so very similiar to your contract. Needless to say, I thought this was amazing, because like others mentioned, who knows when the health condition will show up?


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## JustMe

*Florida Pet Law Requirements*

I've been away from this forum for about four years and have been reviewing various threads to catch up now that I've made my way back here...

This is a very interesting and informative thread. There are a lot of great comments from some wonderful people involved in the Maltese world as breeders and pet owners. Both sides of the equation have important things to say and many have expressed their thoughts, experiences and opinions well in this thread.

The reason I've decided to post to this thread after it has been inactive for so long is I noticed that nobody mentioned that the state where the breeder or buyer live may have (and almost certainly have) enacted laws, rules and regulations that may have the effect of imposing legal requirements in the area of health guarantees for pets. That is the case with the state of Florida. The applicable law is Pet Law 828.29

First of all, the law applys to anyone who sells either two litters or twenty dogs (or cats) per year in the state of Florida.

The law requires vet examination and certification that various tests, vaccines, and anthelmintics required by the law have been administered to the pet.

The law requires the following in the area that is essentially the health guarantee section:

5) If, within 14 days following the sale by a pet dealer of an animal subject to this section, a licensed veterinarian of the consumer's choosing certifies that, at the time of the sale, the animal was unfit for purchase due to illness or disease, the presence of symptoms of a contagious or infectious disease, or the presence of internal or external parasites, excluding fleas and ticks; or if, within 1 year following the sale of an animal subject to this section, a licensed veterinarian of the consumer's choosing certifies such animal to be unfit for purchase due to a congenital or hereditary disorder which adversely affects the health of the animal; or if, within 1 year following the sale of an animal subject to this section, the breed, sex, or health of such animal is found to have been misrepresented to the consumer, the pet dealer shall afford the consumer the right to choose one of the following options:

(a) The right to return the animal and receive a refund of the purchase price, including the sales tax, and reimbursement for reasonable veterinary costs directly related to the veterinarian's examination and certification that the dog or cat is unfit for purchase pursuant to this section and directly related to necessary emergency services and treatment undertaken to relieve suffering;

(b) The right to return the animal and receive an exchange dog or cat of the consumer's choice of equivalent value, and reimbursement for reasonable veterinary costs directly related to the veterinarian's examination and certification that the dog or cat is unfit for purchase pursuant to this section and directly related to necessary emergency services and treatment undertaken to relieve suffering; or

(c) The right to retain the animal and receive reimbursement for 
reasonable veterinary costs for necessary services and treatment related to the attempt to cure or curing of the dog or cat.

Reimbursement for veterinary costs may not exceed the purchase price of the animal. The cost of veterinary services is reasonable if comparable to the cost of similar services rendered by other licensed veterinarians in proximity to the treating veterinarian and the services rendered are appropriate for the certification by the veterinarian.​So, bottom line is that sellers in Florida must offer the buyer their choice of the options when a significant health problem that is the breeder's responsibilty to handle.


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## theboyz

Herb, thank you for posting this. We have a dear friend that bought a pup from a breeder in Florida, that breeder is banned now on SM. The dog is very sick with many problems and the breeder refused any help. The owners have a huge Vet bill and many more to come. I have urged them to get legal help and pursue this Fl. law. Watch where you buy your puppy and beware of unscrupulous breeders.


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## CloudClan

JustMe said:


> I've been away from this forum for about four years and have been reviewing various threads to catch up now that I've made my way back here...


Welcome back! Great post. It is good to see you again and I hope you will continue to join us more often. B)


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## socalyte

The law for the state of Florida that you posted, Pet Law, Division of Animal Industry - FDACS, is really good to know. Thanks for giving us that information.


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## Maslen Maltese

I started reading this post, and it has been pretty interesting to see the differing opinions and concerns. 
But, on another note, I would have to respectfully disagree with the prior posting's reading of this statute. First point that I disagree on is who it applies to. It does say a pet dealer is someone who sells more than either two litters or twenty dogs per year --but importantly it says whichever is *greater*. So, the way I read it is if you have only two litters but that results in 22 puppies the law doesn't apply to you. Or, in the alternative, if you have 20 litters only resulting in 20 puppies the law doesn't apply to you. It also says "engages in the sale." So, arguably, if some of those litters/puppies born were not for sale, the statute may not apply. So, if you can imagine that in the case of maltese breeders, it would probably be easy to not fall within the definition of a "pet dealer". As you pointed out section 5, does provide the consumer with a bunch of remedies. But, right after that, in section 6, it says that these rights can be waived. So, if you have a contract that conflicts with some of the rights that are provided for, you may be waiving those rights provided in the statute. So, ultimately, I don't agree with your bottom line that in Florida the Seller must provide the Buyer options when a significant health issue arises. And, I just brought this up so no one relies on this without considering some possible situations where they would not be protected by this statute.

I have never sold any puppies, but I have bought dogs and bred. And, I think the most important thing is to communicate prior to the purchase about where the responsibilities and risks will fall. Ask about health testing and verify. And, ask questions about what is meant in the contract so that you both understand what is expected. For example, it might say "2 year health guarantee for congenital life-threatening health defect"? What does that means? Does that include GME, liver shunts, MVD, patellas? Different people consider different conditions to be different things. 
I would also keep in mind everyone starts to fall apart as they age-including dogs. I would expect most dogs to have some health conditions in their old age requiring maybe some special care. I don’t think this makes the breeder a “bad” breeder, and I don’t think they should have to pay for your vet bills or give you a new dog. I think that is part dog ownership. 
I would say every breeder I have ever talked to would be very sad to learn about a health condition in a dog they have bred. And, I think it is important to approach from a place without blame (I mean, it’s not like breeders are psychic and sold you the “bad” dog on purpose) and this is SUCH a scary issue for a breeder (and not because of the one dog they sold you or money—it’s a life’s work of breeding). I think it is important to remember that breeders aren't God, and they aren't Germans building BMWs. 
I buy and use stud dogs from responsible breeders not because I want a dog that will never ever never have any health issues or cost any more money than the initial purchase costs and dog food, but because I am concerned for animal welfare and support raising dogs in humane conditions. I buy and use studs from breeders who do health testing because I feel it is the best available means, although not fool proof, to help me get a dog that will have a healthy life. I buy and use studs of breeders who are active in showing because I feel it is the best way to get a dog that adheres to the breed standard. 

Sincerely,
Helen 
Maslen Maltese


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## jambetmaltese

*Breeder Contracts*



LJSquishy said:


> QUOTE (mi_ku_5 @ Jul 31 2009, 09:28 PM)
> 
> Well, I know it's hard to return a sick puppy for a replacement, but if I had to, I would. I had a Maltese before London & Preston came along and he passed away due to a liver shunt before the age of 2 (it was diagnosed before his 1st birthday) -- we did not want to return him so we kept him and gave him daily medicine / special diet for his shunt (he was too sick to undergo surgery). After losing him so early on, I can say that if something like that happened again, I would not hesitate to get a replacement puppy. But, I can see where you're coming from on not wanting to give up your well-loved pet.


As a breeder of quality maltese for many years, I* can tell you I offer a contract with a 2 year health guarantee. In the event that a puppy would ever have to be returned; the purchaser has the option of getting a replacement puppy of like quality or I will take the puppy back, regardless of the reason, and find the puppy a new home and give you back the money less any expenses to rehome the puppy/dog. My contract also requires that the puppy/dog be returned to me IF for whatever reason you can no longer keep the puppy/dog. I do not want one of my Maltese ever put in a bad situation. Most reputable breeder's never let their puppies go to a new home before 12 weeks of age. By then they should have had their 2nd puppy shot, been wormed, and a have complete health evaluation by a licensed Vet. Betty White of Jambet Maltese


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