# Question About Genetics



## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

I was wondering about what gets tested when a Breeder gets there dogs screened for genetic defects??.

I have seen on web sites that you say they have had ALL their dogs geneticlly tested.

I was wondering if any breeder could post a pic of the screening form and results that they have recieved from their vet when getting their dogs tested, I am sure they must have them on hand ready to show potential buyers when or if they ask you.

It would be very interesting to see, what it says and if it is based on percentages etc etc.

I find this topic very interesting especially with what I have gone through with Sammy Maree, I am also sure other members would be interested to see how it all works and how it is all documented, it may help a memeber one day to know what to look for in the results etc etc.

Also, I have learnt the more you breed your dogs can have an effect on their genetic makeup.

I have spoken to Cassy-Ann's breeders who are more than happy to give me a copy of the screening of Lou-Lou and george ( Cassy-Ann's parents), they also offered her grandparents screening results ( hubby got Cassy-Ann as a surprize and he said they showed him a heap of stuff and didn't understand most of it), but I will have to wait till Mid feb as they have alot of shows coming up and are flat out with their dogs and they run a specialized small dog kennel business and being holidays here they are run off their feet and I totally understand.

So it will be good to get an idea of what to look for and expect, by seeing other breeders paper work . I know Country to Country will have a different layout, but genetic makeup and screening should all be the same as will percentage rates and numbers based on each individual dog.

Anyway if you could show me that would be great, Thankyou. All the info I can have about this would be great to know.

Thankyou
Bek
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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

This is a reply that becky gave me and I have her permission to post here.


All my adults in my breeding program are screened for health issues such as liver shunt, luxating patella’s and PDA (heart murmur). By this statement I am saying that my dogs are seen by my vet on a regular basis (once a year) and are checked for these health issues. I take pride in saying that they have all had wonderful check-ups. I am even more confident that my dogs are healthy because every time I take them in for a check-up I make sure a different Vet Checks them than the last. This way I am assuring that if one vet may have missed something the next will hopefully find it. I do this with all my dogs (puppy’s included.) My puppy’s go for well baby checks at least twice before ever leaving me. And both times they are checked for health issues by different vets. 

When I saw your post asking about seeing a clearance sheet I called two of my mentors to make sure I was not doing something wrong. Both of them state that this is the way that they do their health screening. One of them has been breeding Maltese for over 30 years and as she says there are things that just do not show up in the clearance. It takes time to raise your own bloodlines and make sure your dogs grow old as healthy adults. I am proud to say that my original dogs that I began with came from some of the same lines as Jacob Maltese and the new one’s that I have, have been around for a very long time. The litter that I posted pictures of the other day is my third generation. And I am very proud of my progress. 

I do want to add that you can have a dam with a recessive gene and a sire with the same recessive gene and when they are bred together you can get the defect. In other words neither one of the parents tested positive for a defect but when bred to another dog that had the same recessive gene the problem began. Genetics has always intrigued me and I hope as each day passes, I learn so much more. 

As far as the over breeding of a bitch causing genetic defects. To be honest with you I have never heard of this. But I figure it is because I do not intend on breeding any of my girls to the max. So this has not been a subject that I have paid much attention too. I have a girl here now that loves being a mom and tries to steal every one's babies. But she will not be bred again. She has had 3 litters and deserves not to have her body go through that again. Although mentally I know that she loves being a mom and desires to have more of her own. I could probably put a puppy with her at this time and she would get milk in a few days. When I speak to my mentor's I will be sure to ask this question. And post the answer that I get for you. 

I hope this helps but I know that it does not answer your original question. And I apologize for that. I do my very best to help and answer all the questions that is ever asked of me. But this is one I just can not help you with. 
Becky
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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

This is my response back to Becky



Firstly I would like to Thankyou for replying to this Becky. Ok I still have more questions.
You say your dogs have health checks every year, but whats the difference to Me, or Carol or Whoever, who takes their dog in every year for their yearly injection and health check. My dogs have their heart listened to, legs checked, anal swab ( testing for parasites), ears, eyes, temp etc etc, My dogs get the works every year without fail. So how is that different from you??, that really is no guarantee of long term genetic defects. 
I was under the impression all breeders have full genetic testing done, if they don't how are we as a customers fully knowing what we are getting???. I mean a byb can take their dog in to the vet, get them checked over given a good bill of health and off they go pumping out litter after litter. Sorry this really confuses me.
So whether you pay $600 from a byb or $2000 from a breeder you really are no better off. I understand you say that a breeder can trust their lines, but as a customer how can we trust the breeder. My vet said " Over breeding a dog can effect their litters genetic makeup" as their age can also (so I am made to believe)
I will interested as to what paper work my breeder has offered me, although I will have to wait till sometime in Feb.
You also stated that your pups get two health checks before they leave you, that isn't that reasurring to me, because Sammy Maree had health checks also and they didn't prevent what she got.
You talk about a recessive gene, if your dogs are fully tested, then you would know about the Bitches or Sires recessive gene and not breed them wouldn't you?, and how do you know about a recessive gene unless you have your dogs tested.

I just feel there should be more to it, than your vet having a look over a dog and giving it the all clear to breed. Look at Sammy Maree's pics and wouldn't think for a second she was a walking time bomb.
This is a very touchy subject and I am sure most here understand what this means to me.

any further info you can add would be great
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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

This Beckys other response which I have permission to post


Bek how well I know this is a very touchy subject for you and with a very good reason. I wish I had all the answers but I am not going to sit here and act like I do. 

You know you have brought up some very good points. 

The first one that I want to address is how do we know when you have the same testing done. As you and everyone knows I am still pretty new to breeding (4 years) and I still have so much to learn. I truly believe that you need to ask a more experienced breeder these questions. It is not fair for you if I sit here and play the guessing game. I can only tell you what I know and what I am told. 

When I read your post earlier I made those phone calls like I said. I was told that their actually is not what is called clearance testing for Maltese. And that is actually scary to all of us. I do know that this is when knowing your bloodlines and what is behind them. And this is where newbies like myself pray that we have a good mentor that is honest and cares about all of the aspects of the breed. Not just winning championships. 

As most of you know my original babies came from a lady that did not show her dogs. She was burned by the show world. But I will guarantee any breeding that she had. Why because she knew her sh$$. And if she were still breeding Malts I would not hesitate to send someone to her. Is she considered a BYB. Yes because she did not show. But that did not change the fact that she knew what she was doing and if a problem ever arose with any of her dogs she took care of it. Just like she has taught me. I have been blessed with healthy pups so far. But like I mentioned earlier you never know. This is another reason I stay in touch with my families and they all know if a problem arises or they have any questions to contact me. 

About the recessive gene, Bek all I can tell you is what I have learned. I have studied and asked the same questions and I get the same answer as you are getting. And it is nothing. I wish I had the answers, and maybe that is what is going to make my name one day. I am intrigued by genetics and I want to know what makes it tick (so to say). I want to know every thing that causes this that and that other thing. And I hope that one day I will have these answers. 

I will say this after seeing all of the Alt levels so high on the other forum lately I am going to start having a bile acids test done on all of my babies as part of the examinations before they ever leave my home. I know that I am a member on a forum that is mainly breeders and I honestly can not tell you one that does. I am sure that there are some that do, but they are few and far between. Does this make them a bad breeder, IMHO I dont know. As you know from our many conversations I started breeding after I lost Kenny. My main goal is to give back what these babies have given me. If I were producing sick babies and knew that I was, there is no way I would be able to lay my head down at night. I would be causing heart ache not joy. 

As far as over breeding it makes perfect since to me. But what I find strange is that it is something that is never discussed. And this gives me something else to study. 

Bek, I am so sorry about Sammy Marie. And I wish I had the answers for you. But I dont. And I am not going to sit here and say I will find out, because until I figure out what makes it tick I will probably never know just like you. All I can tell you is what I have learned. And right now I am feeling quite inadequate.

But with you asking these questions is a good thing. Because it has brought something to my attention that I can change in my program. And when it gets time for me to be a mentor, I can teach whom ever it may be to do the testing.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

Please if any other breeder don't mind being honest about what really goes on, could you please post your comments.
I would really like to understand this more. I read time and time again, of bybreeders being slammed because they don't know what they are doing and about getting Genetic testing done, yet no-one seems to have any answers, no one seems to be able to tell what is screened, how it is screened, how often, percentage rates on screening.

Thankyou
bek


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

I don't believe that many (if any) breeders test for auto-immune hypothyrodism which is an inherited illness. It can be accomplished with blood tests but I imagine if a breeder has a large breeding program it could be cost prohibitive. I've been told that if a dog does have this illness, it should be retired from a breeding program. When Tuffy was diagnosed, my vet strongly suggested that I advise her breeder, which I did. Her breeder told me that her parents are no longer being bred and felt terrible that she was diagnosed. The positive aspect after testing her for all kinds of illness, is that hypothyroidism is easily treated with medication and Tuffy has responded very well to the medication. The downside is that a dog with an autoimmune illness is also susceptible to allergies (from what I have been told), and now we are trying to combat that as well.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I would be very interested to know how many Maltese breeders get their dogs OFA certified before breeding. Maltese should be screened for both luxating patellas and Legg-Calf Perthes. Last time I checked the database, the only breeder I could find was Rhapsody Maltese.

I personally feel that it's time for breeders to step up and be more more proactive about screening for health problems in their lines. We've seen the prices for puppies soar in the past few years, but I haven't seen any more testing being done. IMO, breeders should routinely being getting bile acids tests done on their puppies before they go to their new home. Now that Dr. Center does not recommend a twelve hour fast before the test, there is simply no excuse not to do it. I also think all breeders should be able to show a potential buyer OFA certifications that both parents have been screened for both luxating patellas and Legg-Calf Perthes.

The American Maltese Association's Code of Ethics requires breeders to do so:

2. I will keep alert for and endeavor to control or eradicate inherited problems that are particular to my breed. I will strive to screen my breeding stock for hereditary problems using the current available and generally accepted techniques.

Just saying that such and such condition "isn't in my lines" does not comply with this.

Bek74, I gather from your post that you lost your Sammy Maree to a genetic condition. I am so sorry. :grouphug:


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> I would be very interested to know how many Maltese breeders get their dogs OFA certified before breeding. Maltese should be screened for both luxating patellas and Legg-Calf Perthes. Last time I checked the database, the only breeder I could find was Rhapsody Maltese.
> 
> I personally feel that it's time for breeders to step up and be more more proactive about screening for health problems in their lines. We've seen the prices for puppies soar in the past few years, but I haven't seen any more testing being done. IMO, breeders should routinely being getting bile acids tests done on their puppies before they go to their new home. Now that Dr. Center does not recommend a twelve hour fast before the test, there is simply no excuse not to do it. I also think all breeders should be able to show a potential buyer OFA certifications that both parents have been screened for both luxating patellas and Legg-Calf Perthes.
> 
> ...



I did, and this topic has been very personal.

I have read the comments of byb being slammed for not knowing what they are doing, for NOT having their dogs Geneticly tested, for this reason and that reason, yet I don't see any so called breeders doing genetic testing, I see them getting health checks, I do that every year with my babies, that didn't stop Sammy Maree getting sick, nor would it stop other dogs.

I want breeders who go on about genetic testing and how wonderful their dogs are because they are geneticly sound, show me the proof, Stand up and show us, I want to see the report from the vets office. I agree Marj the breeders should have their dogs screened. Some breeders charge in the THOUSANDS yet haven't offered any more reasurrance then the byb up the street selling their dog for less then half their price. If you state your dogs are geneticly sound, you should be able to prove it.
Most go on and say they have their dogs screened, but don't, shameful really, makes me wonder what seperates them from the byb??, A few more years of breeding experience and charging more for their pups.

I have heard, the " We trust our lines" story, but really that isn't enough, us as the customer deserve better than that.


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you for starting it Bek. I am very sorry that you lost your pup. There are not many things worse in life.

I am also very interested in hearing from any more breeders about this.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

For those that don't know me well I am not a breeder, nor will ever be. I do not show and will never. However, I've had a Maltese for 15 years, and now have a 7 mo. old--Shoni--from a show breeder.
This subject has been something I've had a great interest in for many years. I've been a bit of a 'harpy' on the subject. I have for years been harping about our breed organization not requiring more *meaningful *health testing of breeding animals. I've learned more from other breed organization by far then the AMA. I believe to some small degree the AMA is improving in that dept. recently. However, and that's a big however.......there are no genetic tests for most of the problems we are concerned about. At this point in the research done by doctors like Dr. Sharon Center and Dr. Tobias doing a bile acid test for liver problems is a lab test that can be done easily and some breeders are starting to do that. It isn't genetic testing! There is none. They have to find a gene related to it first. The standard testing done for luxating patellas isn't a genetic test, there isn't one. There is no test at all for GME/NME. Heart murmurs no, sorry. We have rely on listening or echo.
No one would be more thrilled then I if the vet. medical world could do a simple genetic test and tell all the breeders if their animals are genetically perfect. Right now that is a dream.
My beautiful, seemingly perfect little 7 mo. old it appears, has a liver shunt. That has not been proven until more tests are done. Did I research until I was blue in the face and breeders were tired of talking to me?? YES! Is my breeder a nice honest lady who loves each puppy like her own flesh? YES! Are all my dogs family tree AKC Champions, yes. Has she had other dogs in her program who are ill? NO Did she know of any problems that could be genetic in her breeding program? NO! Were Shoni's parents tested for liver disease? YES. Was he checked by the breeders vet and ruled healthy, yes. Did I have him checked and a blood chem screen run immediately upon arriving home with him--yes. Were all his blood panel tests normal--YES. Did I ask for a bile acids at that time--NO--I was told it wasn't necessary if the ALT and other liver enzymes were normal. Did I still end up with a puppy who could die from liver shunt? YES!!
I love my Shoni more than I could ever put into words. He has a precious personality that is more impressive then his darling appearance. I am so sad that he could have this horrible liver disease, and frightened beyond belief, but if people out there think this "testing" is to a point where we can take a little blood and rule out any problems they are wrong. Hopefully some day.
At this point the breeders can do the liver bile acids test. They should and I think many will. We as 'purchasers' can also do that or insist it is done on our potential new babies. This is something fairly new and everyone is just learning about it. I intend to 'preach' it. I have a list of 10 dogs here on SM (and I'm sure there are more) who have either MVD or Liver Shunt. That is horrible, but it is also nothing compared to some other breeds like Yorkies. Most of these dogs are not "sick" from their problem, but compromised for potential liver problems if not fed and cared for right.
If any breeder, vet or vet tech, or experienced knowledgeable person in canine genetics knows of a "genetic test" for any disease that is thought to be passed through genes, I hope they will educated us here. That would be wonderful, but at this moment this is what I believe to be true for our Maltese.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Dee, you are so right. Unfortunately, there are no genetic markers for so many diseases. Epilepsy and diabetes are two more conditions that are probably genetic, but no markers have been found. My Lady has both, but she is poorly bred.

I am always careful to say "health testing and genetic screening" because that's all you can do, screen for genetic diseases. As we know, there are too many sad stories of Maltese from wonderful breeders who had genetic conditions like Sassy and Mikey Man to name just a few. I pray your Shoni is not one of them.

I think the Havanese breed club is a good example of how it should be done. They particpate in the Canine Health Information Center which promotes testing and reporting of conditions found in the breed. You find nothing like this on the AMA website:

http://www.havanese.org/hcaHealth.htm

As you say, there is no perfect system, but I believe the Maltese community has a lot of room for improvement in this area.

I certainly hope some breeders post to this thread, not just us owners.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

Marj I have posted and gave Bek the permission to post my replies from another forum. I wish there were more that I could say. But as I am sure you have read I dont know what further to say, except that things from here on out will change in my breeding program. I strive to produce healthy puppies and this is just another step in trying to perfect my lines. As I have stated I am not only interested in Show Championships. I am also wanting to produce the best that I possibly can in health. And when it boils down to it isn't the health just as important as confirmation if not more? 

I will be first to admit when I began my program I did not think twice about showing. BUT my main concern was health. As most of you know by now I did not breed my first baby until after the death of my son. I had considered it for many years but did not move forward with it. Then when Kenny passed away these little white dogs gave me life and kept me going. And in return for the gift that God gave me with them my main goal was to give the gift back. To pay it forward. Just like I know in my heart of hearts is what is right. Was I wrong in the way I started YES! But I can not go back and change the past. All I can do is strive to make sure every puppy that leaves my home is healthy. I would never be able to live with myself if it were any other way.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I agree that this is a very good subject to discuss. As you know I lost Sassy to GME/NME. I had done all of the right things when I got Sassy. She came from a show breeder whom I really respect and like. Both sire and dam were from good solid lines. Sometimes stuff just happens. Now for my question to the breeders. And Becky, thank you for taking the time to answer this thread. I'd like to hear from other, too.

Lets just say that someone that you sold one of your pup to, called and told you that they had lost that baby to GME/NME. There is no concrete evidence that it is hereditary, though it is showing up more and more in maltese. What would you do? Would you discuss the matter with your vet? Would you stop using the sire or dam (depending on which one you own)for breeding? Would you continue to use the sire or dam for breeding, but never with the other parent? Would you alert all people you'd sold puppies to that a problem has occurred? And I suppose the same questions could be asked if one of your puppies came up with Liver Shunt.

I appreciate the willingness by the breeders on this board to help us to understand. I am acutely aware that problems in a line could be disaster for someone's breeding program. In my opinion the actions that a breeder takes after they find out that there is a problem will be what sets them apart as a truly good breeder.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> For those that don't know me well I am not a breeder, nor will ever be. I do not show and will never. However, I've had a Maltese for 15 years, and now have a 7 mo. old--Shoni--from a show breeder.
> This subject has been something I've had a great interest in for many years. I've been a bit of a 'harpy' on the subject. I have for years been harping about our breed organization not requiring more *meaningful *health testing of breeding animals. I've learned more from other breed organization by far then the AMA. I believe to some small degree the AMA is improving in that dept. recently. However, and that's a big however.......there are no genetic tests for most of the problems we are concerned about. At this point in the research done by doctors like Dr. Sharon Center and Dr. Tobias doing a bile acid test for liver problems is a lab test that can be done easily and some breeders are starting to do that. It isn't genetic testing! There is none. They have to find a gene related to it first. The standard testing done for luxating patellas isn't a genetic test, there isn't one. There is no test at all for GME/NME. Heart murmurs no, sorry. We have rely on listening or echo.
> No one would be more thrilled then I if the vet. medical world could do a simple genetic test and tell all the breeders if their animals are genetically perfect. Right now that is a dream.
> My beautiful, seemingly perfect little 7 mo. old it appears, has a liver shunt. That has not been proven until more tests are done. Did I research until I was blue in the face and breeders were tired of talking to me?? YES! Is my breeder a nice honest lady who loves each puppy like her own flesh? YES! Are all my dogs family tree AKC Champions, yes. Has she had other dogs in her program who are ill? NO Did she know of any problems that could be genetic in her breeding program? NO! Were Shoni's parents tested for liver disease? YES. Was he checked by the breeders vet and ruled healthy, yes. Did I have him checked and a blood chem screen run immediately upon arriving home with him--yes. Were all his blood panel tests normal--YES. Did I ask for a bile acids at that time--NO--I was told it wasn't necessary if the ALT and other liver enzymes were normal. Did I still end up with a puppy who could die from liver shunt? YES!!
> ...



Firstly, I am sorry to hear about Shoni, I do hope everything turns out ok.

If there is NO such thing as Genetic testing, then what on earth are the breeders going on about when thay all say " our dogs are Geneticlly screened", Is it just a marketing tool????. If there is no such thing then they have alot to be accountable for.
Here we are all saying to byb that come on here, "please don't breed your dogs, they haven't been geneticlly tested" what a fool I feel.
I am truely horrified that breeders can make such claims to market their dogs, they should be ashamed. It is us owners that are left with the medical bills and the broken hearts.
I lost my girl ONE day before her 2ND Birthday, and that just eats me up inside, I want more done, it shouldn't have happened.
Breeders expect TOP dollar for their dogs and we as a customer shouldn't expect anything less than a properly screened puppy.

I have noticed Other than Becky that the breeders on this board haven't posted to this thread. I bet if it was about some byb expecting their 1st litter they would be posting their strong opinions about their so called FAKE genetic screening test.
We hear breeders speak of their dogs being Geneticly tested, and their dogs come form Champion blood lines.
Well sorry, you can have a beautiful dog that wins championships but that doesn't at all mean the dog is geneticlly sound, yet us as the customer we fall into that trap, that is why these breeders have got away with it for so long.
A beautiful coat can hide alot of flaws.

I would really like to know why breeders say their dogs are geneticlly tested, if there is no such test, why lie. Is it a marketing tool??


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Bek, maybe that statement about dogs being genetically tested is used in Australia, but I haven't seen it here among well known show breeders. I've seen 'health screening', which could mean routine blood work and exams or even X-Rays, but not genetic testing. Maybe 'tested for known genetic problems'? There again that doesn't mean 'genetic testing'. That would be something like the bile acids blood test. I don't believe I said there is no genetic tests at all period. None I know of for the problems we are seeing in our breed. There is sometimes DNA testing done, but that is to establish parentage so people don't switch names on AKC papers.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

The way I understand it, genetic _*screening*_ is a careful evaluation of their lines by reputable breeders to eliminate any weaknesses including pulling any dogs from the breeding program if they produce off spring with an inherited condtion that there are no genetic markers for. This is more of a reactive strategy on the part of the breeder.

Health *testing* means actually using available tests to screen for certain inherited problems in Maltese. This would include bile acids/protein C tests (if indicated) for liver disease, xrays of hips, knees, etc. for luxating patellas and Legg-Perthes, CERF for eyes and a thyroid panel. This is a proactive strategy on the part of the breeder.

Does that make more sense?


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> Bek, maybe that statement about dogs being genetically tested is used in Australia, but I haven't seen it here among well known show breeders. I've seen 'health screening', which could mean routine blood work and exams or even X-Rays, but not genetic testing. Maybe 'tested for known genetic problems'? There again that doesn't mean 'genetic testing'. That would be something like the bile acids blood test. I don't believe I said there is no genetic tests at all period. None I know of for the problems we are seeing in our breed. There is sometimes DNA testing done, but that is to establish parentage so people don't switch names on AKC papers.[/B]



Dee, if you do a search just on this forum alone, you would be surprised by how many times Genetic testing has been used in posts, where people have said their dogs are geneticlly sound, or better still when people have slammed other people about breeding and making comments on their dogs not being geneticlly tested.
I have seen it around so many times.
DNA testing doesn't show anything other than parentage like you said.
Blood testing, well I had mine tested when they were desexed, that doesn't show up much of anything really, it didn't show up Sammy Maree's conditions. As to health checks, well I take my babies in every year and they have their yearly injection and they have their heart, breathing listened to, ears, patella, eyes, anal swab( parasites) etc etc all checked, what, does that mean because I do that and the vet says " yeap all is good", I can go ahead and breed. Lets face it, alot of these breeders have never shown a dog, and probably never will and just breed, but because they can use Google so well, they come across as knowing so much and with words like " To better the breed". If I decided to breed out of the blue, I too would know a fair bit after a few years of doing it.

What I am asking is WHAT do these so called breeders really really do to prevent genetic conditions, other than what a good responsible pet owner does every year anyway.
What truely sets them apart from some byb down your street, and that doesn't mean champion lines, that is what I want to know.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> The way I understand it, genetic _*screening*_ is a careful evaluation of their lines by reputable breeders to eliminate any weaknesses including pulling any dogs from the breeding program if they produce off spring with an inherited condtion that there are no genetic markers for. This is more of a reactive strategy on the part of the breeder.
> 
> Health *testing* means actually using available tests to screen for certain inherited problems in Maltese. This would include bile acids/protein C tests (if indicated) for liver disease, xrays of hips, knees, etc. for luxating patellas and Legg-Perthes, CERF for eyes and a thyroid panel. This is a proactive strategy on the part of the breeder.
> 
> Does that make more sense?[/B]


That does make sense Marj, I would like to know how many breeders use the Proactive approach, I am sure very few.
It would be good if DR Jamie could come on ,and as a vet, give a list of Genetic testing ( or similar screening) that is available for breeders to have done.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

http://www.jamimaltese.com/maltesehealth.htm

Not recently updated. Please note that a 12 hour fast is not required for the pre-prandial bile acid sample. Also note that breeding asymptomatic MVD dogs is not necessarily taboo. If you threw out all of those dogs you would narrow the Maltese gene pool to a dangerous size. Use caution. No sick or shunt dogs. 

You have to copy/paste the links. I don't know if all of them are still valid.


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## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

I find it odd that the breeders are not replying. I think it's a great point, and I would love to know what kind of genetic testing is available.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

*Post Deleted. Off topic.*


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> The way I understand it, genetic _*screening*_ is a careful evaluation of their lines by reputable breeders to eliminate any weaknesses including pulling any dogs from the breeding program if they produce off spring with an inherited condtion that there are no genetic markers for. This is more of a reactive strategy on the part of the breeder.
> 
> Health *testing* means actually using available tests to screen for certain inherited problems in Maltese. This would include bile acids/protein C tests (if indicated) for liver disease, xrays of hips, knees, etc. for luxating patellas and Legg-Perthes, CERF for eyes and a thyroid panel. This is a proactive strategy on the part of the breeder.
> 
> Does that make more sense?[/B]


*that's is also my understanding... *


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> I find it odd that the breeders are not replying. I think it's a great point, and I would love to know what kind of genetic testing is available.[/B]


So do I


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

Here are some comments that I have found on so called reputable breeders web sits. I am sure I could find more comments similar.


All breeding dogs are genetically tested, We offer a 2 Year Health Guarantee.


Here is another claim,

We are a small hobby-show breeder. Our show dogs are also our pets. All dogs are tested for genetic issues prior to breeding. Puppies are BAER (hearing) test, prior to leaving


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

It is difficult to decide what to do when something shows up like liver shunt or GME. Genetics is so complex, how are you going to know from whence it came? When I first got started breeding Maltese and I was trying to find out the history behind my dogs, I could not get any one to talk to me. One person who is on this forum did fill me in some. I was new. But, I don't really think that matter's because I am no longer "new" and they still won't talk about the genetic probabilities behind their breeding program's. As the years have gone by I have picked up on some of the probabilities in certain lines. Again, it isn't anything definitive.
Sites like this one have brought so many more people into contact with each other. We hear from other's the health problems that they have in their dogs. I think it seems like there are more and more of these diseases showing up, but I think it is because of the use of the WWW that has brought out more of the health problems because people can talk to each other from different countries.
I believe if a breeder knows that they have a particular genetic marker in a certain dog they will cull this animal. Health concerns do crop up as the dogs get older. Some diseases occur due to the combination of a genetic predisposition for it and environment. Example is Luxating patella's. In toy dogs the groove the ligament is in is shallow and over time has wear and tear with all the jumping these little guys like to do puts them at risk of developing luxating patella's in their life time. 

Marg really put it all into prespective in her break down of what is screening and testing.



<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE<div class=\'quotemain\'>(LadysMom @ Jan 4 2008, 08:14 AM) The way I understand it, genetic _*screening*_ is a careful evaluation of their lines by reputable breeders to eliminate any weaknesses including pulling any dogs from the breeding program if they produce off spring with an inherited condtion that there are no genetic markers for. This is more of a reactive strategy on the part of the breeder.

Health *testing* means actually using available tests to screen for certain inherited problems in Maltese. This would include bile acids/protein C tests (if indicated) for liver disease, xrays of hips, knees, etc. for luxating patellas and Legg-Perthes, CERF for eyes and a thyroid panel. This is a proactive strategy on the part of the breeder.

Does that make more sense?[/B][/QUOTE]

Remember this is a Thursday and some people are at shows and such. Give them time maybe other's will respond.

Tina


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## honeybun (Mar 6, 2007)

Tina I have found the same sort of thing here in Australia to get a top breeder to talk and find out what is behind their blood lines is almost impossible. I heard whispers of shunt in my first Malts line Pip in fact his grandfather wasa uk import and australian and British champion not only did he get the blame by other breeders for carrying GME and shunt. I saw him at a show a wonderful little dog. But to get information true or false is like wringing water from a stone.


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

from what i know most breeds there arent specific tests for certain conditions.... like others have said there r screening tests like OFA, bile acids, eye specialist certifications etc. other breeds there r tests for von wilebrans etc...but no matter what there is risk in any breeder. but a professional i hope once found their breeding stock has a genetic problem they r taken out of the breeding program. at least thats what a responsible breeder would do. i wish there were a magic test to make sure every pup we purchased was 100% healthy...it truely is a gamble, but i think a responsible breeder increases ur odds of a healthy pup.


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

What a really interesting topic! I've often wondered myself what tests reputable breeders were performing. I guess I expected that they were running the tests that have been suggested here by jamie and others. I have to say that I've really been bothered by the problems that have turned up, especially with Shoni, because we all KNOW how careful and diligent Dee was with her search. She's listed here all the wonderful things about Shoni's breeder and lineage, and I don't doubt that it is all very true. Yet she is being faced with disease that you'd expect to come out of a byb's litters. It's not supposed to be that way.

Another thing, I'm very pleased that the tone in this thread has been so pleasant. This is an excellent opportunity for so many to be educated. I hope it doesn't take an ugly turn.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Thank you Tina. I know that you take a risk of being shunned by other breeders, but I find this to be very interesting. I want you to know that I appreciate your candor.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Thank you Tina. I know that you take a risk of being shunned by other breeders, but I find this to be very interesting. I want you to know that I appreciate your candor.[/B]


And so do I . Thank you Tina.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=498344
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I've always appreciated Tina and Becky's honesty.

I pray research continues, and we find the answers we are looking for.

For now, I appreciate the honest/reputable breeders, who are doing everything, within their power, to bring healthy pups into this world. 

I believe I'll make a donation tomorrow towards LS research.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> Thank you Tina. I know that you take a risk of being shunned by other breeders, but I find this to be very interesting. I want you to know that I appreciate your candor.[/B]


Tina, I would also like to THANKYOU very much for replying.

I was wondering why such comments are made by breeders about their dogs being genetically sound, having been tested/ screened, etc etc. When really in most cases it is a yearly check up that most dog owners get anyway.

Is it a marketing tool to some degree??????

By breeding for the PERFECT show dog, for all the black points etc etc, doesn't make it sound, and the more they breed in the same lines, is leaving us open to heart break with genetic conditions. Most times breeders breed to get the perfect LOOKING dog. You hear if a good breeder found out about a pup of theirs that had a genetic problem that they would pull that breeding dog out of the program, in alot of cases genetic problems may not show up for several years, and just think how many more pups have been born in between, and I am sure alot of cases they won't hear about because they lose contact with the new owners.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> from what i know most breeds there arent specific tests for certain conditions.... like others have said there r screening tests like OFA, bile acids, eye specialist certifications etc. other breeds there r tests for von wilebrans etc...but no matter what there is risk in any breeder. but a professional i hope once found their breeding stock has a genetic problem they r taken out of the breeding program. at least thats what a responsible breeder would do. i wish there were a magic test to make sure every pup we purchased was 100% healthy...it truely is a gamble, but i think a responsible breeder increases ur odds of a healthy pup.[/B]


With these tests available, I wonder how many breeders actually get them done?????????????????????/.


Thanks for your input Jaimie


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

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That is wonderful xoxoxo


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## honeybun (Mar 6, 2007)

One of my mentors a older breeder from the eighties has told me that the degree of honesty in breeding and showing now leaves a lot to be desired. Back then she has often told me how breeders would go out of their way to help newcomers in learning about Maltese.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> Is it a marketing tool to some degree??????
> 
> By breeding for the PERFECT show dog, for all the black points etc etc, doesn't make it sound, and the more they breed in the same lines, is leaving us open to heart break with genetic conditions. Most times breeders breed to get the perfect LOOKING dog. You hear if a good breeder found out about a pup of theirs that had a genetic problem that they would pull that breeding dog out of the program, in alot of cases genetic problems may not show up for several years, and just think how many more pups have been born in between, and I am sure alot of cases they won't hear about because they lose contact with the new owners.[/B]


Bek,
You are so right about your statement above.
Everything we are is inheritable. The biggest problem with breeding is the close line breeding done with a popular stud dog. Because of this you cannot always pin point where it is coming from. Then you have to weight that against what it is that is inheritable. Is it teeth, umbilical hernia's, cryptorchism, pigment, coat type and texture. It all adds up into what it is that is presenting itself. Then as a breeder you must decide what can be done about it. There is also the saying that "you can't throw everything out or you won't have anything left". Another way of saying it is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water". 
And Bek, your right. Sometimes heritable traits don't show up for a long time, skips generations, etc.
To answer your question, do I do any of the testing mentioned. If I know that it is a possibility in a particular dog I test the dog for it. But, testing can be misleading. Especially thyroid or any of the autoimmune disorders. The dogs themselves can test negative but they actually carry the genetic code for the disease. Now, you think your dog is cleared of this. You breed to another dog who tested negative for said trait not knowing they carry the genetic code too. Bingo, the genes come together and now the disease has presented itself. At this time you know then that both dogs carry the gene. Now is the hard part. You will definately not breed those two dogs together again. But what are you going to do with breeding them ever again. It depends on what it is that is passed on. Breeding and genetic's is so deep. 
I don't know of any breeder who will intentionally breed a dog they think is going to pass on a bad trait. I too wish there was a way to test for Liver shunt and GME that is reliable.  I worry about getting a puppy with liver shunt. It happens. 
Tina


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

I hope I'm not intruding on this thread, but do have another question.

I purposely went to a BYB, an add in the paper, for my Joplin. He had three healthy males. I told him, no I'm looking for a pup who needs help, I will not pay you. Just before hanging up, he said, "wait, I have a little female, who has a heart murmur. She is not for sale, we were just going to let her live out her life here". I said, "I want her". When I picked her up, the breeder told me the vet said it was a slight murmur, and could possibly close. 

I called the breeder, a week later. I informed him the murmur was caused by PDA. And to stop breeding their pets. I also told him his vet was an idiot. This was NOT "slight". My Jops would have died within six months. My original intent was to save her. But, had he sold her to a buyer who wanted to exchange her, she would have just "lived out her remaining six months" with the BYB.

My question is, what do "reputable" breeders do in cases like this? With a returned pup, requiring thousands of dollars to save it's life. Do they do it? Do they "secretely" pass the pup onto a rescue organization? Do they just wait for it to die?

If one of their pups has a high grade luxating patella, before being sold, so no question it's genetic, do they pay to fix the leg/legs of an, otherwise, very healthy pup? Do they pay the 4K, or perhaps, quietly pass it onto rescue?

So many do not want to return the pup, because they are worried for it's future. 

We do get pups from BYB's and Mills, because of major health issues they, of course will not pay for. Billy was to be put down because he was blind.

I've always wondered what show breeders do with their "Billy's"


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

What do good breeders do to guarantee that their dogs are healthy? How do we prove it?

All I can say is that my vet knows my dogs almost as well as I do!!! He checks patellas, listens to hearts, checks eyes, etc. on every dog I own at least once a year through out their lives. He just stops in if he's in the area and is always more than welcome since it saves me several trips 45 minutes one way. We have also done blood panels on every adult dog I own. I know many reputable breeders that go above and beyond..........no one I know, wants to produce an unhealthy puppy.

The other thing that I, as well, as many other show breeders in the states do, is try to keep up with current medical research such as the new vaccination protocols. Over vaccination has been *proven* to cause auto immune problems and has been associated with several other medical problems that we have recently seen become more prevalent in our dogs. I recently read a couple of new research papers on this topic but will have to look for them at a later time for you all. I just returned home from the vet concerning the love of my life, Vanity, who is 14 1/2 years old and lost her eye today from an injury (not genetics). Here is an informative link that may help any unknowing people help to make a better informed decision http://home.earthlink.net/~texas2step/Vaccinosis.html and thus will help to make for many healthier pets. There is a lot of info concerning vaccinosis on the internet.

Yes, I know you are talking genetic problems but I truly believe that some/many of the problems that pop up later in life could just as well be associated with something else........yearly vaccinations. Patellas can be checked by a vet. I, as a breeder, do caution new owners about letting our little ones jump from high surfaces.........I made this mistake years ago and ended up with one of my older girls living out the rest of her life on prednisone due to a ruptured disc in her back........could have just as easily been a patella. I know there are other problems that are not as easily explained or pinpointed and if I were to have a puppy with that type of a problem, I would do as any reputable breeder would do........I would care for the puppy myself, eliminate the parent/parents from my breeding program, and inform any that had puppies/dogs from that breeding. That is one of the big differences between a reputable breeder as opposed to a BYB or a miller...........the later two could care less about health issues in their dogs as long as their dogs can crank out more puppies.

The one thing I have found and have always believed in, is that less is better. I don't use flea treatments (haven't had fleas for years), don't use heartworm treatment (poison), I don't re-vaccinate my dogs every year, etc. I can say that the last few years have not been as happy as I would have liked because I have had to let several of my very "old" people go, just as I will have to let Vanity go one day soon............but it is from old age.

I realize that there is a lot of hurt from those that have lost a dear one from some of these dreadful diseases. I am very sorry that I do not have time to read this message board on a regular basis so do not know about all of the personal issues that have happened. I can tell you that we need more research on these health issues so that someday no one will feel the hurt that many of you have felt. Until then the reputable breeders can only use the knowledge and research that has been done to keep our dogs safe and healthy.


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

> My question is, what do "reputable" breeders do in cases like this? With a returned pup, requiring thousands of dollars to save it's life. Do they do it? Do they "secretely" pass the pup onto a rescue organization? Do they just wait for it to die?
> 
> If one of their pups has a high grade luxating patella, before being sold, so no question it's genetic, do they pay to fix the leg/legs of an, otherwise, very healthy pup? Do they pay the 4K, or perhaps, quietly pass it onto rescue?
> 
> ...


excellent question, deb. i have always wondered too, what happens to those that get "returned".... 

this is a great thread. i'm learning a lot more than i thought i would (i honestly thought it would be a jargon-filled thread that would fly completely over my head, but it's not  ) and will continue to follow it and others that may spring up just like it.


ann marie and the "i'm not too bright, i ain't got good genes, but thank GOD and all that is holy that I am healthy!" buttercup


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> I hope I'm not intruding on this thread, but do have another question.
> 
> I purposely went to a BYB, an add in the paper, for my Joplin. He had three healthy males. I told him, no I'm looking for a pup who needs help, I will not pay you. Just before hanging up, he said, "wait, I have a little female, who has a heart murmur. She is not for sale, we were just going to let her live out her life here". I said, "I want her". When I picked her up, the breeder told me the vet said it was a slight murmur, and could possibly close.
> 
> ...


Deb I know what I would do. Not to long ago you all will remember how sick my Ezekiel was. He is not of my breeding but from a mill that I could not leave behind. The emergency surgery and several day stay in the hospital ran me up a huge bill. I do not care to say how much, butl I will say is I just made my last payment on the bill. With me doing this for him I know for a FACT what I would do for one that I have created and brought into this world. It is not their fault we made a mistake. And they will not suffer at my hand. I will do everything in my power to fix the health issue and give the baby a life he/she deserves. This is a very very touch one for me as most of you know why. I have said it before and I will say it to my dying day...."If I have made a mistake and caused another living creature to suffer I will do everything that is feesable in my power to take care of the mistake and not let them suffer." Isn't that what life is really suppose to be. And the life of these precious gifts are not suppose to suffer. Not by my hand or anyone else's.


*EDIT:*
Anne Marie and ButterCup, when I just read your signature............
ann marie and the "i'm not too bright, i ain't got good genes, but thank GOD and all that is holy that I am healthy!" buttercup 
I had more tears to fall. Thank you!!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> I hope I'm not intruding on this thread, but do have another question.
> 
> I purposely went to a BYB, an add in the paper, for my Joplin. He had three healthy males. I told him, no I'm looking for a pup who needs help, I will not pay you. Just before hanging up, he said, "wait, I have a little female, who has a heart murmur. She is not for sale, we were just going to let her live out her life here". I said, "I want her". When I picked her up, the breeder told me the vet said it was a slight murmur, and could possibly close.
> 
> ...


Deb,
I can only speak for myself.
Never think you are intruding. I am surprised he said something about her. Now don't take that wrong. It's like in human babies when the hole in the heart doesn't close after birth. The pups are so small that it's hard to get a vet to do the surgery to correct the problem. If they have life, the Billy's would live with me. I did pet out a pup with a missing foot and one with missing toes. I caused the missing foot. She didn't know anything different. She lives in Oklahoma with an adoring woman. The one with the missing toes was caused by her mother. She was placed in a home in Baldwin, Kansas. If I had a puppy born with luxating patella's that needed repair, it would not be sold for sure. I would do the surgery. If a good home would come up, I would place the pup with them. Free. If not, they stay with me. Now, if a puppy is born without body parts I do put them down. I've had 2. I call them "flukes". No one knows why it occurred. It just does. And, I visited with several vets about what could have caused it. Birth anomalies happen. I have given males to well screened homes here in Topeka. They all keep in touch with me and they are neutered. It's hard to keep too many males in a small trailer and stay sane. JMO
Tina


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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With my Joplin the murmur was a very loud "swishing" sound. My regular vet recognized it was PDA immediately. We went to a referral center, and scheduled one of the best surgeons in the country. So yep, she had her surgery within the month, at the age of 5-months, and 2.5 pounds. My foster Ringo had the same severity, at the same age, and he is also like new.

I must say, you, Becky, and a couple others I know, are exceptional. I do have this fear that some show breeders are so worried about their reputations, that they would rather "hide" the fact they, even if by, nothing more than "mother nature", produced a defective pup.

I've seen how cut-throat, and snotty, so many of these breeders can get. I would not put it past many of them to either, pass the financial burden onto rescue (through a third party), or simply euthanize a, saveable pup, just to keep their reputation intact. 

I'm speaking of ALL breeders, not just Maltese. 

I have a friend involved with a local small breed rescue, and she did bring up one of her stories, which really got me thinking. This was an entire litter, from a show breeder, who breeds/shows two breeds. Well the litter is a mix. They were surrendered at the age of five weeks. He didn't care about the pups, he just wanted any sign of them gone.


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

> Anne Marie and ButterCup, when I just read your signature............
> ann marie and the "i'm not too bright, i ain't got good genes, but thank GOD and all that is holy that I am healthy!" buttercup
> I had more tears to fall. Thank you!![/B]


Becky, if you ever got the chance to meet her, you'd understand how spot-on it is when i give her quotes. she's a good egg. there are probably baboons that are closer to the maltese breed standard than the buttercup is, but while i once had days where i beat myself up for falling for a broker's scam after thinking i'd done my homework... i realize that i do have the perfect dog. perfect for me.  that's all i care about. i wouldn't trade her for the world.

(maybe for a _smarter _puppy, sometimes.... :smrofl: nah, not even then~)

the debs and lorijo know her. she's silly and likely has more "b*tchin-frizzy" or p**dle in her family than maltese, but is that her fault? not at all. i'd gladly take the LBB's and Joplins of the world. okay and maybe throw in a Humpy Concerned Toto, a Crazy Caira, or a Parker or any of the P's....  (i can dream, no?)

I guess genetics is really all a crapshoot no matter how your prepare yourself, how much you do your homework, and how much you try and "weed out" the bad things, isn't it? 

Let's all just have a bottle of wine and remember how much worse things could be for any of us. We could not even KNOW the joy of a maltese.

Nope, not thinking about that... I"ll just have another glass of wine instead


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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Right On, Ann Marie!! That's why I cut thru the crap, and simply ask for the defective ones :smrofl: 

"What do you mean you have 'healthy' ones? I want problem children" :HistericalSmiley: 

And The Buttercup is flippin' Beautiful. She does not look "poodle", you flippin' nut case!!!

I loved having Butterbutt here. She is not only beautiful, she gives me kisses. And very well socialized. She even knew how to handle BBH and LBB. Oh, LBB is still looking for her, by the way.

I miss my Butterball :wub:


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

It seems as if all the breeders should just be hung from the closest and highest tree after reading many of the posts on this thread. And as usual, all of the breeders are at fault.............prosecuted, convicted, and found guilty!!!!!

However, whether you want to believe it or not, there are various levels of breeders in each and every breed. Each level depends on the amount of work and time that person, as a breeder, is willing/able to put in to get to the next level. It takes time and lots of hard work to get to the upper levels in the dog world. It is *NOT*, as some would think, putting two dogs together, getting a puppy, and going to a show to bring home your class ribbons. 

Also........ not all is as it seems to be

I can tell you about to very sick Maltese. The first one was a tiny little girl that is as cute as can be. After her first season she started having problems with hypoglycemia. She was taken to several specialists as well as a veterinarian college with the hopes of finding out what was wrong with her. Everything was out of wack but nothing was majorly out of wack. This went on for two year until I, the owner, decided that they had to take the chance and get this little girl spayed because she would drop below 3 pounds after each season. Guess what............she had female problems. On a side note, during all of the testing trying to find out what was wrong with this girl, the vets said they did find that she had tracheal problems and an enlarged heart. This was about 7 1/2 years ago. Patti is currently almost 10 1/2 years old and has never had another health problem including with her supposed tracheal problems and enlarged heart. I turned down many forever homes for her through the years thinking she was going to fall over and die from tracheal and heart problems.

In another case we had a boy become deathly sick. Took him to the vet and his liver numbers were out the roof..........immediately they suspected a Liver shunt. In my mind I knew it could not be because this has always been a very healthy boy. Upon further investigation it was found that he had eaten some grass that had been treated several days earlier with weed n feed. Yup........the same stuff that advertises it is safe for your pets to walk on it after 6 hours.....maybe it is but please don't let them munch on it!! He did survive after a long recovery and his liver number kept coming down over time which we were able to watch with the weekly blood tests. The original vets would have bet their diplomas, that this guy was a liver shunt when in actuality it was an environmental problem.

These things are not cut and dried. Many of our household cleaners can have the same effect as the weed n feed did. Gardens are not always the safest place for out little ones either. 

I admit that there are a few breeders that may not care either from ignorance or maybe some other motive. Who knows...... but they are a minority, at least they are in the show world. Instead of sending out a lynching party for breeders as a whole, maybe it would be beneficial to try to come up with an alternative criteria that will, at least temporarily, help those looking for a new puppy to make a better decision in choosing their breeders. I have heard it said a hundred times that someone choose the breeder they choose just because that breeder was less expensive, closer, had red hair.....you get the idea.........when what they should have been concerning themselves with was the actual puppy....health, looks, etc..


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> It seems as if all the breeders should just be hung from the closest and highest tree after reading many of the posts on this thread. And as usual, all of the breeders are at fault.............prosecuted, convicted, and found guilty!!!!![/B]



I have no idea where you got that out of this thread.


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

I think breeding is very subjective , certainly it would be nice if more breeders had transparent breeding practices . I must also note , that in Australia genetic testing is very breed specific - and does not tend to include the Maltese ( and I am talking about TOP breeders ). Given the popularity of certain breeds in the U.S , the gene pool must be stretched to breaking - supply and demand , would certainly account for lazier breeding practices and the lack of any testing . I certainly think with some of the prices I have seen here ( Australian dogs are far cheaper ) - genetic testing should be mandatory , and included in the price . I feel very sorry for the innocent dog purchaser - who has an unhappy medical road to travel . I applaud Bek for bringing up what must be a sore subject for many breeders . I also thank the breeders who took the time to reply . From what I have seen since joining this board for all the beauty of the Maltese , they are indeed a flawed breed . Sarah


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Bek, I applaud you for starting this thread. I am very impressed at the honest responses you have received so far, and I look forward to reading further responses.

To those that have posted so far, thank you for your honest & informative responses.

Very interesting thread, hopefully it will continue to be informative, and remain as civil and respectful as it has so far.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> Bek, I applaud you for starting this thread. I am very impressed at the honest responses you have received so far, and I look forward to reading further responses.
> 
> To those that have posted so far, thank you for your honest & informative responses.
> 
> Very interesting thread, hopefully it will continue to be informative, and remain as civil and respectful as it has so far.[/B]



I, also applaud you!!

This is a very informative thread. We, owners, are simply asking questions, and seeking answers. 

I am also very impressed with most of the responses.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

Thankyou all so much, I find this topic very interesting and I guess I am searching for answers because of what I have gone through.
I am also so Upset reading posts time and time again of people here having their dogs diagnosed with illnesses that should be preventable. People here search for so called reptuable breeders spend big money on a pup and only to have it get ill.

I also think there are way to many people breeding, There are breeders on here that Don't show their dogs and probably never will yet class themselves as reptuable breeders. Most of them just started breeding because they love the breed and over the years have built things up and now have several breeding bitches and studs. I bet most of them started with a Male and female AKC registered dogs, and not knowing much of anything.
I am aware of one breeder here who USED to advertise her pups as Tea cups with baby doll faces and charge in the thousands for them ( out of decency I won't mention names), she has never shown her dogs.
I think alot of breeders here are on the verge of byb / hobby breeding.
Then you have show breeders, who really have one goal and that is to win the show ( well NOT all). Showing is a very bitchy area and their main focus is showing. I also beleive alot of decent people wouldn't knowingly breed a defective gene, but because they are sometimes so focused on the outer appearence the inner health can suffer later down the road.

This statement isn't meant to be offensive, I feel as adults we should be able to discuse issues like this and have people lay their cards on the table without being offensive and naming names. 
I am happy so far as to the way this thread is going, It is shows SM has really matured over the years I have been a member here.

So to everyone who has contributed positively THANKYOU



I found this on the net, so i thought I would paste to for all to read


Hobby Breeders

The term Hobby Breeder or Hobby Kennel is used to make the perspective buyer believe they care more about the puppies they are selling. A hobby is collecting dolls, or trains, not selling dogs! In reality these "hobby breeders" are simply a kennel without meeting the requirements of the law such as required inspections to ensure a clean, safe environment for the adult dogs and their puppies, ultimately your puppy. AND, a Hobby Breeder is quite simply skirting the law by not claiming the income of their sales.

Breeders will make excuses, like they are only private parties, or hobby breeders, or very small kennels, having only one or maybe two litters in a year, but did you know that California law (and many other states) require that even if you have only 1 litter a year, you still must have a breeding permit from animal control! And all the states that charge sales tax, also require a "Seller's Permit". The only animals that are exempt from sales tax are animals sold for food consumption "farm animals", not pets. To sell a pet and not to charge the buyer sales tax is a misdemeanor to a felony!

Hobby Breeders will so often claim that they are not making a profit from breeding. Yet they have multiple females and males for breeding and have built kennels to house them. We came across one web site that said that they were "Hobby Breeders" in Somis Ca., but yet they also stated they had a 5000 sqft. kennel, wow that sure is a big kennel for a "Hobby Breeder"! Another web site we came across said they were a "Small Hobby Kennel" in Southern CA., yet they had 3 litters of puppies on the ground and another one on the way, wow that's sure a lot of puppies for a "Small Hobby Kennel"!

Yes it does cost a good deal of money to actually breed and raise puppies. But there is an income from that! The difference from the "Hobby Breeder" and a reputable kennel is breaking the law or NOT!






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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=498496
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> 
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That is untrue, However I will say that most Breeders do have alot to answer for and I believe can do alot more to ensure they are breeding healthy dogs.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=498496
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is untrue, However I will say that most Breeders do have alot to answer for and I believe can do alot more to ensure they are breeding healthy dogs.


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

> I think breeding is very subjective , certainly it would be nice if more breeders had transparent breeding practices . I must also note , that in Australia genetic testing is very breed specific - and does not tend to include the Maltese ( and I am talking about TOP breeders ). Given the popularity of certain breeds in the U.S , the gene pool must be stretched to breaking - supply and demand , would certainly account for lazier breeding practices and the lack of any testing . I certainly think with some of the prices I have seen here ( Australian dogs are far cheaper ) - genetic testing should be mandatory , and included in the price . I feel very sorry for the innocent dog purchaser - who has an unhappy medical road to travel .
> 
> 
> > I totally agree with your statement Sarah.


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## kathym (Aug 5, 2006)

WOW WHAT AN EYE OPENER THIS THREAD WAS .THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR SHARING .


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> It seems as if all the breeders should just be hung from the closest and highest tree after reading many of the posts on this thread. And as usual, all of the breeders are at fault.............prosecuted, convicted, and found guilty!!!!!
> 
> However, whether you want to believe it or not, there are various levels of breeders in each and every breed. Each level depends on the amount of work and time that person, as a breeder, is willing/able to put in to get to the next level. It takes time and lots of hard work to get to the upper levels in the dog world. It is *NOT*, as some would think, putting two dogs together, getting a puppy, and going to a show to bring home your class ribbons.
> 
> Also........ not all is as it seems to be[/B]


I really do not understand what you mean by "levels"? Especially this.... What is the beginning of the "level" and how do you get to the next "level"?


> It takes time and lots of hard work to get to the upper levels in the dog world. It is *NOT*, as some would think, putting two dogs together, getting a puppy, and going to a show to bring home your class ribbons.[/B]


Are you refering to the levels of AKC sanctioned dog shows by the use of "class ribbons".? Real breeding doesn't have anything to do with how involved you are in AKC sanctioned dog shows. That is the "show" aspect of breeding better dogs. There are "levels" in showing dogs to get from being a "class" dog to being a "Best In Show" dog. 
Or are you talking about breeder's who are trying to improve the quality of their dogs? No one has said that the breeder's should be hung out and dried. What I am hearing is frustration of having health issues with dogs that they paid a good price for that the breeder has given health clearances for. In other words, they did their homework, they bought a dog from a breeder who has a good reputation. Even though they did all that they still ended up getting a puppy who started showing health problems before they are very old. No matter what "level" you are on, it still goes back to the "Code Of Silence". No one is willing to share the background information of the dogs they are breeding. You cannot do a well thought out breeding without good information on what both dogs will bring to the genetic pool. Example: A dog who has some teeth problems behind them. Your dog has a history of possible teeth problems too. You don't want to mix these two's genetics together to set in teeth problems. I am talking about missing teeth with a trait of the dogs having 4 incisors instead of 6. 

I don't understand this either.......


> Also........ not all is as it seems to be[/B]


 Are you refering to the "Code Of Silence"?

I agree, there is alot more to breeding dogs than putting two dogs together. You do your own homework on what each dog will contribute to the gene pool. You buy the best girl you can afford and keep the best out of her litter and keep going in this fashion. You investigate your pedigrees. You read about genetic's and follow along with updated literature. Animals, like people, are not perfect. We still have sickle cell anemia and we know how to genetically eliminate it. It happens because the people either are not well informed about their own genetic's or they feel in dosen't concern them. And again, enviroment can alter the health of our dogs. Like Sharon said vaccines, pesticides, floor cleaners, and the enviroment our pets live in contribute to heath issues. JMO
Tina


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Sharon of Foxstone,
I'm so sorry if you really are getting that feeling from this thread (breeders convicted, etc.). As pet owners and lovers of our Maltese children we own most of the Maltese in this world (or better said-we are owned by the Maltese in this world) :biggrin: . We adore them and love them as our children. Where do we get these surrogate children? From breeders like you if we are lucky and do our home work. Home work is what is going on here.
We have not learned that breeders are bad! We have learned that genetics and breeding are an extremely technical complicated thing and that there are no tests to make it simple. Animal like humans can get sick or hurt no matter who their parents are. I know for a fact there are many loving caring honest people who breed Maltese and all the other breeds. They are all on the learning curve somewhere, as are the doctors and researchers. In health matters scientist are learning and discovering every day. Likewise good breeders are reading and studying gathering facts that effect their dogs every day. Protocols in vacs have changed, diets and protection from toxins have changed, and how to 'test' breeding animals for genetically linked problems is starting to change.
These interested owners are here learning these things every day. We try so hard to get 'inside' to you people that breed our dogs. We don't what you to feel you are being 'accused' just because we ask questions. That stops the whole learning process. I do not question the honesty or the breeding program of my breeder because Shoni may have liver shunt. I can see from the little I've learned so far that IF this is inherited it would be so hard to know about recessive genes in both parents that could come from many directions several generations back. I've said before it will be so wonderful if someday you breeders can run pedigrees through a computer and come out with a perfect match that carries all the perfect health genes as well as size, coat, movement, face, temperament, etc. etc. Maybe then we can pre-order the dog we want and know what we'll get........ :blush: (of course you know I'm kidding!)

I ask the breeders that read this and other threads about breeding and it's practices to bare with us. We can't learn what to expect from you or our dogs if we don't ask. Since we don't know the answer when we ask, some of our questions and concerns may sound stupid to you, and if you are always looking at us with a chip on your shoulders and a defensive stance you will feel accused. I know that is not your intent Sharon. I've read you in other forums and know how concerned you are about your dogs. I want to thank you for writing to us here and trying to explain the complexity's of breeding.
Peace and health, Dee


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I've been watching this thread but not responding because honestly? I'm too new and still have way too much to learn to be any type of 'expert' and that's all i am going to say. :brownbag:


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Well said Dee. :thumbsup:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> Sharon of Foxstone,
> I'm so sorry if you really are getting that feeling from this thread (breeders convicted, etc.). As pet owners and lovers of our Maltese children we own most of the Maltese in this world (or better said-we are owned by the Maltese in this world) :biggrin: . We adore them and love them as our children. Where do we get these surrogate children? From breeders like you if we are lucky and do our home work. Home work is what is going on here.
> We have not learned that breeders are bad! We have learned that genetics and breeding are an extremely technical complicated thing and that there are no tests to make it simple. Animal like humans can get sick or hurt no matter who their parents are. I know for a fact there are many loving caring honest people who breed Maltese and all the other breeds. They are all on the learning curve somewhere, as are the doctors and researchers. In health matters scientist are learning and discovering every day. Likewise good breeders are reading and studying gathering facts that effect their dogs every day. Protocols in vacs have changed, diets and protection from toxins have changed, and how to 'test' breeding animals for genetically linked problems is starting to change.
> These interested owners are here learning these things every day. We try so hard to get 'inside' to you people that breed our dogs. We don't what you to feel you are being 'accused' just because we ask questions. That stops the whole learning process. I do not question the honesty or the breeding program of my breeder because Shoni may have liver shunt. I can see from the little I've learned so far that IF this is inherited it would be so hard to know about recessive genes in both parents that could come from many directions several generations back. I've said before it will be so wonderful if someday you breeders can run pedigrees through a computer and come out with a perfect match that carries all the perfect health genes as well as size, coat, movement, face, temperament, etc. etc. Maybe then we can pre-order the dog we want and know what we'll get........ :blush: (of course you know I'm kidding!)
> ...


[attachment=31925:goodpost.gif]


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

> I agree that this is a very good subject to discuss. As you know I lost Sassy to GME/NME. I had done all of the right things when I got Sassy. She came from a show breeder whom I really respect and like. Both sire and dam were from good solid lines. Sometimes stuff just happens. Now for my question to the breeders. And Becky, thank you for taking the time to answer this thread. I'd like to hear from other, too.
> 
> Lets just say that someone that you sold one of your pup to, called and told you that they had lost that baby to GME/NME. There is no concrete evidence that it is hereditary, though it is showing up more and more in maltese. What would you do? Would you discuss the matter with your vet? Would you stop using the sire or dam (depending on which one you own)for breeding? Would you continue to use the sire or dam for breeding, but never with the other parent? Would you alert all people you'd sold puppies to that a problem has occurred? And I suppose the same questions could be asked if one of your puppies came up with Liver Shunt.
> 
> I appreciate the willingness by the breeders on this board to help us to understand. I am acutely aware that problems in a line could be disaster for someone's breeding program. In my opinion the actions that a breeder takes after they find out that there is a problem will be what sets them apart as a truly good breeder.[/B]


This is a very important topic and one that is near and dear to me as I was one of the top Lhasa breeders in the U.S. for more than 30 years. There are a number of things I would like to say on this subject.

1. Each breed has a different proponderence for specific health problems. In Lhasas, renal disease is the most prevelent. So when we talk about health screening, we are talking about specific screening for health issues common in a particular breed, i.e., what I would check in Lhasas would be different than what I would screen for in Maltese.

2. As Dee and Marj and others have pointed out, unfortunately genetic markers have not be found for most of the health problems facing a breed, so, although we, as breeders, may screen for particular health problems, until/unless a puppy that we produce ends up with a hertidary health problem, we may never know that our bitch or dog is a carrier. In many instances, the medical experts aren't even certain if it is actually a genetic issue.

Now to get to the point of answering this question. A lot of breeders will not "fess up" to having a problem in their line because of how many dogs they know might be involved. I believe this is wrong. And the majority of breeders do want to know and correct breeding problems.

I am lucky that I have never found a genetic problem within my Lhasa line. I stay in contact with 95%-99% of the people that bought my dogs and do want to know if/when/what health problems they've seen. I've provided each buyer with a lifetime genetic health guarntee meaning that if the dog develops a genetically related health issue I will pay the vet bills for any related treatment, and I will replace the dog if the buyer wants. I know that doesn't take away the heartbreak of dealing with or losing a furbaby, but it does put "skin in the game" for me. 

In one instance, I did have a 2 year old pet female die of heart failure. The buyer also owned her littermate sister. She called me immediately and I ordered a necropsy be done on the dead furbaby and testing be done on the littermate -- all at my expense. I wanted to make certain that this was not genetic (which thankfully it wasn't) and also to put the owner's mind at rest that the littermate sister didn't have a similar problem (which she didn't).

If I had found that it was a genetically related problem or a health issue caused by breeding, I would have immediately pulled both the dam and sire from my breeding program. I've done with when I've found a dam or sire to produce recessive traits that are undesirable. I had one sire product 2 different litters with 2 different lines. Although not health related, he produced a trait that was a fault in the breed, and I did not want to perpetuate it, so the male was neutered and never again used for stud. In addition to pulling the dam and sire from the breeding program, I would also contact each buyer that owned a dog that could potentially have the health problem and ask the owner to have the dog tested at my expense. I would certainly want to know how widespread the problem was. This is the only way that breeders can help insure that health problems are eventually removed from a particular breed.

The next problem, however, wouldn't be with the pet owners who have spayed or neutered their dogs, but with the other breeders who have purchased from you or breed to one of your studs. Some would be reluctant to part with breeding stock that has generations of champions behind them. Although you, as the breeder, could ask to buy back or replace the dog or bitch, the owner may not be agreeable to this solution. 

Now, let's also discuss litters where you owned the stud but not the dam. You are not the BREEDER on the litter and not the person from whom the owner purchased the dog. You were paid a stud fee and may hear about one of the puppies that goes on to do great in the ring, but you have no record of the pet buyers. If a pet buyer contacted the breeder about a health issue, you may or may not ever hear about it. So you would potentially be in the dark that your stud was a carrier.

As far as a bitch that is bred often having more genetic problems with the puppies -- that is nonsense. A bitch that is repeatedly bred may produce unsound puppies because she is in poor health from the repeated breedings, but the issues will not be derived from a genetic issue.

Although most reputable show breeders are trying their hardest to produce dogs that improve the bred, we are often limited about what we can do about health related issues. Some breeds started here with a very small breeding pool and have most ancestors in common if traced back several generations. If you were to identify a genetic marker in one of the foundation stock, you may well, potentially, wipe out an entire breed if one of their get were eliminated from breeding programs. I do, however, believe that breeders don't want to be known for having a particular health problem in their line. Other well known breeders know not to breed to you because you have had "renal problems" "epilepsy", etc. in your line. 

Lastly, my philosophy has always been that -- even though my dogs might be beautiful, someday that dog will not longer be in the show ring and will be living as a pet with me or someone else that loves him/her. The most important thing is for the dog to be healthy and to have a great temperment.

As medical research advances, more and more is being learned about genetics and hereditary health problem. Breeders overall are anxious to have this knowledge.


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## BrookeB676 (Oct 17, 2004)

I believe we can conclude that there are no guarantees regarding health when you purchase any dog, regardless of the source. That being said, I would like to think (and do in fact think) that most show breeders who put their heart and soul into a specific breed, would not intentionally continue to breed a dam or sire that would potentially be producing unhealthy pups, especially given that they only supposedly produce pups for their own breeding purposes with the hopes of producing a show prospect. So clearly the issue here is the unknown, which hopefully advances in technology will eventually help with. And, as pet owners, we cannot predict the future of our pets no matter how much time we spend researching and finding the perfect breeder. 

I am no source of knowledge, however, I wanted to point out the second part of what I interpreted BEK as also asking. If there are clearly many unknowns and no guarantees regardless the intent of the breeder, why should someone who simply wants a dog to love as a companion, spend the additional money on a pet quality puppy? Why do we shun someone who doesn't buy from a reputable breeder? Hopefully people will weigh in on this.

I personally will always only purchase my puppies from show breeders and only support such (or a rescue), and have my own answer to the above question, but I think it's something that would be interesting to address and worth discussing. 

As for my opinion, for me personally, it's not only an an issue of health like this post has been focused on, but an issue of greed and intent. While my primary concern is obviously the health and well being of the pet, we already established above that it is near impossible to do so. The intent of most show breeders is with love (clearly displayed by Becky, Tina, Sharon, etc.), and to continue to try and improve the breed that we love and cherish so much. It would be ignorant in my opinion to think that a reputable show breeder is in it for the money, like a BYB or puppy mill. I am a person of principal and treat my pets like my children (as the rest of you), and therefore regardless of health issues, I don't think its "right" to support an operation making a large profit on reproducing these innocent animals that they know nothing about and don't really even care about, not to mention the deplorable living conditions these money producing pets live in at their mill etc. I do also believe that there is a lot more uncertainty when dealing with a BYB or puppy mill.

With all the above being said, I just took my 4 1/2 year old little yorkie (Haley) to the vet to get a referral from a specialist. In a few months, we will have to spend $6,000 to have both of her grade 4 luxating patellas repaired. We are devastated about this, not necessarily financially, but because of the pain she is going through right now, and the rest of her life as the surgery will create a whole new array of issues. I surely wish the reputable show breeder we purchased her from when she was 6 months has the same ethics as many of the maltese breeders who have expressed their opinion on this thread. And by the way, the vet thinks this is what was causing her shaking and panting episode a few days ago. 

To me, it was worth every penny we spent on Louis (the newest maltese) simply for the fact that I can pick up the phone and call someone who is knowledgeable on the breed, supportive and most of all caring. How many people can do that who purchased from a pet store or BYB? The premium is worth that alone (although pet stores these days are as much if not more than a good breeder). Obviously we didn't have the same experience with Haley, which is why someone searching for a pet should go with a breeder they are comfortable with. Haley's breeder has never wanted to keep in touch, but I'd like to think she is the minority in show breeders.


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=497970
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> 
> 
> ...


WOW - Thanks for this very informative answer Lynn.


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

I think Lynn hit a bulls eye with her post!!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Lynn,
You did a great job of giving people the perspective of breeding from the breeder's point of view. Lots of things to think about. I get too complicated in what I am trying to say. :blush: Some Maltese breeder's were Llasa breeder's too in the past. Al-Mar, Margorie Lewis bred both. Your great Lynn.
Tina


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

Thank you, Lynn. I really do appreciate the information that is being given.


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

I think there are a lot of complicated issues regarding breeding. Not only genetics but the proper care (ongoing vet care, proper nutrition, exercise) for the dogs that are being bred.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

> I think there are a lot of complicated issues regarding breeding. Not only genetics but the proper care (ongoing vet care, proper nutrition, exercise) for the dogs that are being bred. I think the environment that the dogs live in is also an important factor. For example, if a breeder is a smoker and the puppies are exposed to second hand smoke or sprayed with febreeze to mask the smoke odor. Or the breeder uses whitening shampoo on young puppies in an effort to remove "nicotine stains".
> 
> No, I haven't lost my mind. I happened to come across a post in another maltese forum from a "breeder" who was asking for advice due to puppy buyers complaining about the pups having nicotine stains and smelling like smoke. This particular breeder stated that quiting smoking was not an option. I am horrified that breeders like this exist.[/B]



I know you're not out of your mind as I saw that same post too, Debbie. I had to read it three times to believe what I saw. Spraying with Febreeze...what a sick move that is. With all the help out there for smokers these days there should be no reason for that.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> I really do not understand what you mean by "levels"? Especially this.... What is the beginning of the "level" and how do you get to the next "level"? QUOTE





> It takes time and lots of hard work to get to the upper levels in the dog world. It is *NOT*, as some would think, putting two dogs together, getting a puppy, and going to a show to bring home your class ribbons[/B]


.[/B][/QUOTE]

Tina with you being a "show breeder" I fully expected you, above many of the others on the message board, to understand the statement above. :new_shocked: But since you did not, I will try to make it a bit more simple. 

What are the different levels of breeders............I will start at the bottom.............the puppy-millers. They even have several levels with the Hunte Corp. most likely being their top level. Next above the millers would be the BYB. I am sure there are levels within that group but don't know for sure. Next we have the entry level into the show world. Many beginners start with a dog/dogs from less than desirable breeding(i.e.. not the best of breeders......pet shop....etc.) but at this level, many are in the "just learning stage". To continue to rise through the ranks, so to speak, one needs to first; start the learning process.........go to breed seminars, nationals, etc. BTW, Tina, have you been to one of our Nationals o attended any breed seminars? At the Nationals you can meet and talk to other breeders from around the world, as well as go to seminars concerning health and/or grooming, and be able to see and study dogs from other breeders. I guarantee that everyone at a National "wants" to talk Maltese :biggrin: .........certainly it cannot be said that there is a "code of Silence" there. As in any life situation, One must earn the respect of their piers.



> What I am hearing is frustration of having health issues with dogs that they paid a good price for that the breeder has given health clearances for. In other words, they did their homework, they bought a dog from a breeder who has a good reputation. Even though they did all that they still ended up getting a puppy who started showing health problems before they are very old.[/B]


How often does the scenario above happen. You do not hear about sick dogs coming from reputable breeders very often. But as someone on here said earlier..........sometimes things happen to even the best of breeders. I am sure that Shoni's breeder is devastated and worried sick about the puppy because I have known her personally for years and she is a wonderfully, sweet person. I am sure she will do anything to help make it right within her power. That is another difference between a reputable breeder as opposed to a BYB and mill puppy breeder..............at least the reputable breeder will be there for you and help in any way they can.



> I don't understand this either....... QUOTE





> Also........ not all is as it seems to be[/B]


 Are you refering to the "Code Of Silence"?[/B][/QUOTE]

Tina, I realize that the people on this forum love you here, but many of those in the show world that know you, know that you have purposely burned many bridges behind you. Therefore, I will not make comment on some of your remarks out of kindness. However the statement "Also........ not all is as it seems to be" referred to the following two stories that were below it. Sorry if I confused you. You know...........I have been in Maltese for almost 20 years and have never noticed a huge "code of silence". Yes there are a few that are secretive.........LOL............I know some that are secretive about the products they use to groom with  ............then others will tell you everything they know. :shocked: One only has to be willing to learn and not go in thinking they know more than the mentor.

My statements as well as the true stories were given to help to show that different things besides genetics can cause problems, and since our vets have to know so many things about so many different species, sometimes they can make wrong diagnosis without doing further investigation. Unless the vets you go to are specialists in their field I would suggest getting at least a second opinion when it is something that is potentially serious. Just think......Our people doctors go to school for at least 8 years and only have to learn about one species.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

Lynn I have told you thank you in private but I want to publicly say thank you for sharing your knowledge. It is breeders such as yourself, Tina and my mentors that are willing to help us learn. And I will be the first to admit I have a lot to learn. But don't we all, in every walk of life. If we quit learning is life being productive? I don't think so. One of my goals in my program is to and learn something new every day. And as long as I stick to this goal I know that my program will be going to the right direction. 

Thank you to all the breeders before me that are willing to help.


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## carolnsong (Nov 21, 2006)

Seriously, thank you for the interesting facts, 
This is very informing to me as a new comers to this list, so I can make an intelligent choice in finding the right breeder
Carol








> QUOTE





> I really do not understand what you mean by "levels"? Especially this.... What is the beginning of the "level" and how do you get to the next "level"?
> 
> 
> > It takes time and lots of hard work to get to the upper levels in the dog world. It is *NOT*, as some would think, putting two dogs together, getting a puppy, and going to a show to bring home your class ribbons[/B]
> ...


Tina with you being a "show breeder" I fully expected you, above many of the others on the message board, to understand the statement above. :new_shocked: But since you did not, I will try to make it a bit more simple. 

What are the different levels of breeders............I will start at the bottom.............the puppy-millers. They even have several levels with the Hunte Corp. most likely being their top level. Next above the millers would be the BYB. I am sure there are levels within that group but don't know for sure. Next we have the entry level into the show world. Many beginners start with a dog/dogs from less than desirable breeding(i.e.. not the best of breeders......pet shop....etc.) but at this level, many are in the "just learning stage". To continue to rise through the ranks, so to speak, one needs to first; start the learning process.........go to breed seminars, nationals, etc. BTW, Tina, have you been to one of our Nationals o attended any breed seminars? At the Nationals you can meet and talk to other breeders from around the world, as well as go to seminars concerning health and/or grooming, and be able to see and study dogs from other breeders. I guarantee that everyone at a National "wants" to talk Maltese :biggrin: .........certainly it cannot be said that there is a "code of Silence" there. As in any life situation, One must earn the respect of their piers.



> What I am hearing is frustration of having health issues with dogs that they paid a good price for that the breeder has given health clearances for. In other words, they did their homework, they bought a dog from a breeder who has a good reputation. Even though they did all that they still ended up getting a puppy who started showing health problems before they are very old.[/B]


How often does the scenario above happen. You do not hear about sick dogs coming from reputable breeders very often. But as someone on here said earlier..........sometimes things happen to even the best of breeders. I am sure that Shoni's breeder is devastated and worried sick about the puppy because I have known her personally for years and she is a wonderfully, sweet person. I am sure she will do anything to help make it right within her power. That is another difference between a reputable breeder as opposed to a BYB and mill puppy breeder..............at least the reputable breeder will be there for you and help in any way they can.



> I don't understand this either....... QUOTE





> Also........ not all is as it seems to be[/B]


 Are you refering to the "Code Of Silence"?[/B][/QUOTE]

Tina, I realize that the people on this forum love you here, but many of those in the show world that know you, know that you have purposely burned many bridges behind you. Therefore, I will not make comment on some of your remarks out of kindness. However the statement "Also........ not all is as it seems to be" referred to the following two stories that were below it. Sorry if I confused you. You know...........I have been in Maltese for almost 20 years and have never noticed a huge "code of silence". Yes there are a few that are secretive.........LOL............I know some that are secretive about the products they use to groom with  ............then others will tell you everything they know. :shocked: One only has to be willing to learn and not go in thinking they know more than the mentor.

My statements as well as the true stories were given to help to show that different things besides genetics can cause problems, and since our vets have to know so many things about so many different species, sometimes they can make wrong diagnosis without doing further investigation. Unless the vets you go to are specialists in their field I would suggest getting at least a second opinion when it is something that is potentially serious. Just think......Our people doctors go to school for at least 8 years and only have to learn about one species.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

While I think there is a lot of silence with some health issues in the breed, Maltese are not unique in this. It's pretty universal throughout the dog world.

I think the important thing is that we work to increase awareness of the health testing that is available and may help improve the health of our breed. If you don't look at what is underneath appearances, you don't know what you really have. 

If a long-time breeder tells me they've never seen a problem, I think they're full of it. I've had Maltese for only 11 years and have seen plenty. I think much more highly of a breeder who says yes, I had this or that. IMO, honesty and responsibility are more important than "perfect" dogs that don't exist. 

And one last thought...not every problem is genetic or the result of a "bad" breeder. Luxating patellas can be caused by injury. I will quite publicly say my young dog had orthopedic injuries - not hereditary. Neurologic disease can be acquired. Toxins can be ingested. MVD is rampant in the breed and a large percentage of dogs are likely affected. That means its not just BYB or mill dogs. Its everywhere. Healthy, asymptomatic dogs are still great dogs. 

Breeder's are not gods. As much education as they put into breeding, genetics are still mysterious. Things will show up. It is how they are dealt with that matters most.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> While I think there is a lot of silence with some health issues in the breed, Maltese are not unique in this. It's pretty universal throughout the dog world.
> 
> I think the important thing is that we work to increase awareness of the health testing that is available and may help improve the health of our breed. If you don't look at what is underneath appearances, you don't know what you really have.
> 
> ...


[attachment=31949:thumbs_up.gif][attachment=31949:thumbs_up.gif]

Very well said.

I want to thank everyone with expertise for stepping up to reply to Bek's post. It was a difficult call to answer, a plea from a distraught member who had just lost her beloved Maltese, and I appreciate the honesty and expertise all of you shared with us.

Hopefully between breeders and owners, our shared love of this wonderful breed can help us find more ways to safeguard the health of these wonderful little dogs.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Bek, I'd like to thank you for bringing this subject. I have learned a lot from this thread and I know I have a lot more to learn, especially since I am trying to do things the 'right' way.

Thank you to the experts for sharing their knowledge, I hope that I will one day be just that, an expert!


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

ooops


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

I would like to hope this thread will stay active. There has been a lot of information shared here, but I don't believe it's done with yet. 

It appears there has been a lot of thought put into the responses here, and not just idol thought, useful information has been provided.

I don't want to see it end here. Yes, it has been very thought provoking, very informative, very honest and that is wonderful.

What can we do with this information & knowledge? We can certainly ALL afford to learn more if we so choose, but how can we aid in promoting & advancing this type of information/learning/knowledge??

Whilst this thread has been valuable in the information it has provided, IMO, it hasn't really gotten to the bottom of Bek's original question. It appears there are no definitive answers. That being the case, do we just 'suck it up' and wait for technology to advance? .... or is there something that can be done to promote awareness and increase research? 

I don't want to just let it be - what can be done? I don't want to take - 'we can't do anything' as an answer.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm just a Malt mommy. I don't know all the in's and out's of breeding, genetics, etc. I just know I want a healthy baby with the Maltese temperment. I guess what this is all boiling down to is that no matter how reputable and well known a breeder is, you can never be guaranteed 100% of no health issues....genetic or otherwise. There are just no absolute guarantees in life. However by going to a reputable breeder, it increases the odds in your favor of a healthy baby. What I wish would come of this thread is that there be some type of written standard of what testing must be done in order for that breeder to be recognized either by the AMA or even the AKC for that matter. And along with that, a clearly worded document of what that testing is and what it screens for so that the puppy buyer has a clear understanding. As for potential health issues caused by environmental factors from the breeder, well let's just say I really hope that the post on the other forum about a breeder who smokes and is trying to get the yellowing out of the puppy's coats and spraying them with Fabreeze is just someone trying to harm that person's reputation, because I really don't know how the environment of a breeder could be regulated. And unfortunately we can not always go to the breeders home to see how they live.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Darn...I waited too long to edit my original post. I really hate the idea of someone purposely trying to hurt someone's reputation. I'm just so horrified by the thought that some one could actually do this, that I hope it is a hoax.


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## honeybun (Mar 6, 2007)

Not sure if this is a little off subject but here is a link that I can recommend for all those with epilepsy problems my sister is member of.


http://www.pcfce.org/about.htm


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## bek74 (Jun 26, 2006)

Thankyou Marj, Stacey and Jacqui. I also hope this thread doesn't die either. I have learnt alot myself here. Thankyou to those who have replied to this thread. I would also like to thank everyone who replied for being mature and honest. I am so happy to see us all express our opinions with out it turning ugly. THANKYOU.

I hope that breeders on this forum and breeders that pass by will read this thread and learn. I hope that they will from now on do more to ensure they are breeding healthier puppies. I hope breeders will speak to their vets and arrange to see what further testing has developed to help ensure the health of all their dogs.

I would also hope that breeders will STOP using the words Genetically tested / screened etc etc as a marketing tool to sell their pups. I hope that they will be more honest and forward to the people who are buying their puppies. they should state clearly that their dogs HAVEN'T been genetically tested (if there is no such test), that they do however have their yearly health checks ( like most dogs get anyway), then they can go on to say if they have had other testing done, about their breeding lines, if they have ever had health problems and what they have done about it. We deserve to know exactly what we are buying.

I would really like to see some changes being made, I think they need to be.

Again thankyou all for replying. This has been a very emotional topic for me, as most of you know I lost my Princess 1 day before her 2nd Birthday, and I guess I am searching for some answers and I would like to see people change their breeding practices. I would hope that Me lossing Sammy Maree and starting this thread that I have some how made a difference and that breeders will make some positive changes in their breeding program.

Bek


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

> I would like to hope this thread will stay active. There has been a lot of information shared here, but I don't believe it's done with yet.
> 
> It appears there has been a lot of thought put into the responses here, and not just idol thought, useful information has been provided.
> 
> ...


I agree that this part is also very important. 

There have been various breeds that have been known to have a propencity for a particular health problem. An example is the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. When they were first recognized by AKC in 1996, it was well known that most of the dogs did have or would develop heart problems that would normally limit their life span to no more than 8 years max.

Today, you seldom see a King Charles from a reputable show breeder with a heart problem. Why?

Because the breeders worked TOGETHER to insure that this was carefully watched and steps were taken to not use certain dams and sires. 

Good breeders study and learn about genetics in their breed. They learn were certain traits and problems stem from whenever possible. As a breeder, I studied and studied and studied and studied pedigrees. I learned the dogs that consistently threw "bad bites" (a huge problem in Lhasas) and eventually weeded them out of my line. I learned the dogs that threw "liver noses" (a fault in the breed) and eventually weeded them out of my line. The same is true with health issues, BUT -- the parent club has to be willing to donate money for research and be willing to work TOGETHER to improve the breed. It takes generations to truly weed out a problem and it cannot be done overnight. With King Charles, it took about 8 years.

Some clubs are led by breeders that are only out to build show records and are too self-centered to actually care about improving the health of the breed overall. They usually don't have a particular health problem in their own line and really don't care (or may even be secretly happy) that others do have this health problem.

As I mentioned briefly in my previous post, Lhasas' biggest genetic problem is renal disease. The national Lhasa club did set up a research fund to help learn more about this genetic problem. One of the keys to it being successful, however, was for breeders to "own up" to having produced puppies with the problem. Some of the breeders (most, in fact) were eager to help with the research. If they had produced a puppy with renal dyspalia, they provided info on the pedigree for 6-8 generations (minimum) so that carriers could be identified. Identifying carriers is the key to identifying genetic markers. A few breeders, however, would never own up to having a problem with any of their dogs (although other breeders knew that they had had problems). In any event, this type of group effort has really helped decrease the disease in Lhasas from reputable breeders. 

It is a goal to wipe this horrible disease out completely. Only research (which always takes funding) and honesty from breeders who are willing to POOL their knowledge and info will help identify genetic markers for health issues.

As I said above -- some national clubs are diligent in working together on these types of issues (King Charles is a great example as is the Papillon club with PDA), and other clubs are filled with breeders who are never willing to work together and couldn't agree on anything -- even that the color of the sky is blue. Until the breeders running a national club, the ones in office or on the board are willing to put their jealousies and pitiness aside and look out for the betterment of the breed, little will be done to correct health issues.

Tina -- I applaud your honesty. I was also a rebel within the Lhasa community and broke the "code of silence" many times. In the end, I was so tired of the politics and fighting between the members of the national club that I resigned my office and cancelled my membership. When I still had the #1 Lhasa in the U.S. I was more than willing to explain to judges and to others why I was not longer an ALAC member. 

Those of your that have pointed fingers and are denying that their is a "code of silence" or that a lot of this is politically controlled within the show community are simply LYING to the public. Or, and hopefully this is the case, you are too new at the game to have seen it.

Good or bad -- I've been to the top of the show game, know how it's played, know the politics involved. I will tell you truthfully -- I could take any dog on this forum (mine included) that are not show quality, may be spayed or neutered, and may have every fault under the sun -- they may not even be AKC registered and they may not necessarily be pure Maltese (have a mix in there) -- and I could make them the #1 MALTESE in the U.S. Give me 3 years and the dog will be #1. And most of the reputable Maltese breeders will WANT to breed a dog just like this one. They will change the entire look of the Maltese to mimic mine that is now #1. Why???? Because to some in the show world -- WINNING IS EVERYTHING!!!!! Now some of you may not want to believe me, others know that it's true and won't admit it and a few are secretly saying "you go girl".

Now don't get me started on this issue, because in many ways it is off topic. The point is that the only way that health issues will eventually be lessened or eliminated in a bred is by BREEDERS WORKING TOGETHER with researchers to identify the carriers and hopefully identify a genetic marker for the disease. To do this, breeders must be willing to be honest about their lines.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Lynn (Lacie's Mom),
Wow, thank you. :aktion033: What we can do is donate to research and require more due diligence from the people we buy from. Instead of breeders being frightened someone will find a problem with one of their dogs and hiding it, they should grab the chance to purify their line. That's what breeding is supposed to be about. Not winning.

To the dirty tricksters in the other forum who would post in someone else's name, that would pretend to be a breeder by using that breeder's name and location and posting in that breeder's name things to damage her reputation, this is not child's play. Not one bit funny. I don't want this thread to deteriorate into posters fighting, so please don't take my statement and run with it.

Someone who knows, please post for us where and how to donate where it will be used for health research in Maltese.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Dee -- well said.

We cannot wipe out all of the health problems at one time. But we can work on them one at a time. It might be good for us, as a group, to decide which health issue is our biggest concern. After that, we could contact the AMA and see if they have set up any type of research fund for this health issue. If not, we could ask if they would be willing to do so with a donation that would be earmarked to begin the research.

If AMA is not interested, then we can approach one of the Vet Schools and see if they would be interested in doing research on this health issue in the Maltese. In most instances, research is already going on. It is simply a matter of learning who is doing the research for that particular health problem.

I would be more than happy to spearhead this endeavor for the SM Forum Members. 

First, however, we do need to decide which health issue we want to tackle. After all, funding is limited and we get more "bang from our buck" if we are trying to tackle only one health problem at a time.

Lynn


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Lynn, you rock!! :rockon: Maybe some good will actually come out of this!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

On the subject of research into diseases that effect our Maltese, for those of you who may have missed it, please read the story of Stormy's battle with GME and consider making a donation to the CREATE fund.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...mp;#entry493396


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

> Lynn (Lacie's Mom),
> To the dirty tricksters in the other forum who would post in someone else's name, that would pretend to be a breeder by using that breeder's name and location and posting in that breeder's name things to damage her reputation, this is not child's play. Not one bit funny. I don't want this thread to deteriorate into posters fighting, so please don't take my statement and run with it.[/B]


I'd like to extend my apology to everyone on SM for being "duped" into believing that a breeder posted on another forum regarding the issues I made reference to in a prior post in this thread. I was unaware that there were ongoing issues that resulted in someone ficticiously and maliciously posting in someone else's name. I sincerely regret it.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Good news. I've been notified that AMA has begun a committee to work on research for health related issues. Apparently they are currently trying to decide the first problem that they will try to address. I know the head of the committee very well and will contact her on Tuesday as I know that she's at shows this weekend. I'll let her know that many of the SM members would like to be able to contribute to the fund for research and see what the thinking is of AMA.

After I talk with this person, I'll report back. I think this is a good, solid beginning. I know this is the best course to take to make real progress.

Lynn


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Good news. I've been notified that AMA has begun a committee to work on research for health related issues. Apparently they are currently trying to decide the first problem that they will try to address. I know the head of the committee very well and will contact her on Tuesday as I know that she's at shows this weekend. I'll let her know that many of the SM members would like to be able to contribute to the fund for research and see what the thinking is of AMA.
> 
> After I talk with this person, I'll report back. I think this is a good, solid beginning. I know this is the best course to take to make real progress.
> 
> Lynn[/B]


OH Lynn this is wonderful news. Thank you for posting and letting everyone know!!!


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

> What I wish would come of this thread is that there be some type of written standard of what testing must be done in order for that breeder to be recognized either by the AMA or even the AKC for that matter. And along with that, a clearly worded document of what that testing is and what it screens for so that the puppy buyer has a clear understanding.[/B]


I think this is an excellent idea. At least if it was standardized, everyone would know what was meant when someone said that they do the proper testing, and new breeders would know what was expected.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=499187
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't know who it was..only that it was a nasty post. The owner of that forum might want to learn how to identify computer readings so duplicate names can't be easily done.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

> Good news. I've been notified that AMA has begun a committee to work on research for health related issues. Apparently they are currently trying to decide the first problem that they will try to address. I know the head of the committee very well and will contact her on Tuesday as I know that she's at shows this weekend. I'll let her know that many of the SM members would like to be able to contribute to the fund for research and see what the thinking is of AMA.
> 
> After I talk with this person, I'll report back. I think this is a good, solid beginning. I know this is the best course to take to make real progress.
> 
> Lynn[/B]


That is fantastic news Lynn!! Thanks so much for being willing to keep us updated.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> Dee -- well said.
> 
> We cannot wipe out all of the health problems at one time. But we can work on them one at a time. It might be good for us, as a group, to decide which health issue is our biggest concern. After that, we could contact the AMA and see if they have set up any type of research fund for this health issue. If not, we could ask if they would be willing to do so with a donation that would be earmarked to begin the research.
> 
> ...





> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=499419
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please believe me when I say that your concerns are not falling on deaf ears. There are at least three members of AMA's newly formed health committee who are also Spoiled Maltese members and for all I know there could be more.

About donating money to research, here's where my money goes and why:

AKC Canine Health Foundation Maltese Donor Advised Fund - The AKC Canine Health Foundation awards thousands of dollars every year to both breed specific and all breed research projects. They have the indepth knowledge and expertise to properly screen research proposals to determine if a research proposal is of merit, if the researcher has available resources to actually conduct the research, and whether or not the research may result in substantial benefit to a breed or a number of breeds. This screening insures that your dollars, my dollars, and their dollars are put to the best possible use. No breed club on earth has the resources within itself to do this kind of screening, no breed club that I know of has the kind of dollars it takes to fund most of the research project, and for these reasons most breed clubs encourage their members to donate to their own particular Donor Advised Fund at the AKC CHF. Furthermore, if the AKC CHF believes that a research proposal is of merit and of benefit to a particular breed or breeds, they will ask the breed club or clubs to consider helping to fund the project using money from their Donor Advised Fund(s). If the breed club participates, the AKC CHF will match the breed club funding dollar for dollar. So for every dollar that I donate to the Maltese Donor Advised Fund, it is potentially worth $2 in research money to any project the AMA agrees to help fund. And if you feed any Purina brand foods to any of your dogs please read my post at http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...c=21139&hl= for a cost free way to raise money for the Maltese Donor Advised Fund at the AKC CHF.

I also donate money to Cornell University Veterinary School fbo Dr. Sharon Center's Liver Shunt Research Project. Within the research world it is acknowledged that Dr. Center has gone further and come closer than anyone else to unlocking the genetic mystery of liver issues within certain breeds. She can only continue her research if it is funded. Cornell has contributed hundred of thousands of their own dollars toward this research, as have at least a couple of national breed clubs. Dr. Center has applied to the AKC CHF for a grant to continue her research. As of November the application was still pending. I do not know if she has received word yet of approval or denial but will contact her and let you know what I hear. In the meantime, it never hurts for anyone to write a positive letter of encouragement to the AKC CHF asking them to please consider approving her grant application so that she may continue her research. I have not chosen Cornell because I think that the eradication of liver issues in our breed is any more or less important than any other health issue that our breed contends with. But I have chosen Cornell and liver shunt research because I know Dr. Center personally, I know that she is absolutely committed to finding some answers for us and our dogs, I know that she is willing to speak to breeders, to help educate breeders, to help advise breeders in making the wisest choices they can make using the only available knowledge to be had at the moment. And I've seen in person just how much she loves our breed. I had the honor of spending 10 hours with her one day, watching her play with, cajole, reassure, and pamper 15 dogs while doing repeated bloods draws on each of them. You can only begin to know how committed she is and how much love she has for our breed when you watch her hold two 7 week old scared squirmy little puppies while with the utmost care and precision drawing blood from their little jugular veins. In my book Dr. Center walks on water and deserves the benefit of every last dollar that I can spare.

Lynn expressed my sentiments so much better than I ever could when she said "After all, funding is limited and we get more "bang from our buck" if we are trying to tackle only one health problem at a time."

MaryH


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=499199
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please believe me when I say that your concerns are not falling on deaf ears. There are at least three members of AMA's newly formed health committee who are also Spoiled Maltese members and for all I know there could be more.

About donating money to research, here's where my money goes and why:

AKC Canine Health Foundation Maltese Donor Advised Fund - The AKC Canine Health Foundation awards thousands of dollars every year to both breed specific and all breed research projects. They have the indepth knowledge and expertise to properly screen research proposals to determine if a research proposal is of merit, if the researcher has available resources to actually conduct the research, and whether or not the research may result in substantial benefit to a breed or a number of breeds. This screening insures that your dollars, my dollars, and their dollars are put to the best possible use. No breed club on earth has the resources within itself to do this kind of screening, no breed club that I know of has the kind of dollars it takes to fund most of the research project, and for these reasons most breed clubs encourage their members to donate to their own particular Donor Advised Fund at the AKC CHF. Furthermore, if the AKC CHF believes that a research proposal is of merit and of benefit to a particular breed or breeds, they will ask the breed club or clubs to consider helping to fund the project using money from their Donor Advised Fund(s). If the breed club participates, the AKC CHF will match the breed club funding dollar for dollar. So for every dollar that I donate to the Maltese Donor Advised Fund, it is potentially worth $2 in research money to any project the AMA agrees to help fund. And if you feed any Purina brand foods to any of your dogs please read my post at http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...c=21139&hl= for a cost free way to raise money for the Maltese Donor Advised Fund at the AKC CHF.

I also donate money to Cornell University Veterinary School fbo Dr. Sharon Center's Liver Shunt Research Project. Within the research world it is acknowledged that Dr. Center has gone further and come closer than anyone else to unlocking the genetic mystery of liver issues within certain breeds. She can only continue her research if it is funded. Cornell has contributed hundred of thousands of their own dollars toward this research, as have at least a couple of national breed clubs. Dr. Center has applied to the AKC CHF for a grant to continue her research. As of November the application was still pending. I do not know if she has received word yet of approval or denial but will contact her and let you know what I hear. In the meantime, it never hurts for anyone to write a positive letter of encouragement to the AKC CHF asking them to please consider approving her grant application so that she may continue her research. I have not chosen Cornell because I think that the eradication of liver issues in our breed is any more or less important than any other health issue that our breed contends with. But I have chosen Cornell and liver shunt research because I know Dr. Center personally, I know that she is absolutely committed to finding some answers for us and our dogs, I know that she is willing to speak to breeders, to help educate breeders, to help advise breeders in making the wisest choices they can make using the only available knowledge to be had at the moment. And I've seen in person just how much she loves our breed. I had the honor of spending 10 hours with her one day, watching her play with, cajole, reassure, and pamper 15 dogs while doing repeated bloods draws on each of them. You can only begin to know how committed she is and how much love she has for our breed when you watch her hold two 7 week old scared squirmy little puppies while with the utmost care and precision drawing blood from their little jugular veins. In my book Dr. Center walks on water and deserves the benefit of every last dollar that I can spare.

Lynn expressed my sentiments so much better than I ever could when she said "After all, funding is limited and we get more "bang from our buck" if we are trying to tackle only one health problem at a time."

MaryH

[/B][/QUOTE]


MaryH ~ YOU ROCK!!!

Thank you soooooooo very much!!!


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=499448
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please believe me when I say that your concerns are not falling on deaf ears. There are at least three members of AMA's newly formed health committee who are also Spoiled Maltese members and for all I know there could be more.

About donating money to research, here's where my money goes and why:

AKC Canine Health Foundation Maltese Donor Advised Fund - The AKC Canine Health Foundation awards thousands of dollars every year to both breed specific and all breed research projects. They have the indepth knowledge and expertise to properly screen research proposals to determine if a research proposal is of merit, if the researcher has available resources to actually conduct the research, and whether or not the research may result in substantial benefit to a breed or a number of breeds. This screening insures that your dollars, my dollars, and their dollars are put to the best possible use. No breed club on earth has the resources within itself to do this kind of screening, no breed club that I know of has the kind of dollars it takes to fund most of the research project, and for these reasons most breed clubs encourage their members to donate to their own particular Donor Advised Fund at the AKC CHF. Furthermore, if the AKC CHF believes that a research proposal is of merit and of benefit to a particular breed or breeds, they will ask the breed club or clubs to consider helping to fund the project using money from their Donor Advised Fund(s). If the breed club participates, the AKC CHF will match the breed club funding dollar for dollar. So for every dollar that I donate to the Maltese Donor Advised Fund, it is potentially worth $2 in research money to any project the AMA agrees to help fund. And if you feed any Purina brand foods to any of your dogs please read my post at http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...c=21139&hl= for a cost free way to raise money for the Maltese Donor Advised Fund at the AKC CHF.

I also donate money to Cornell University Veterinary School fbo Dr. Sharon Center's Liver Shunt Research Project. Within the research world it is acknowledged that Dr. Center has gone further and come closer than anyone else to unlocking the genetic mystery of liver issues within certain breeds. She can only continue her research if it is funded. Cornell has contributed hundred of thousands of their own dollars toward this research, as have at least a couple of national breed clubs. Dr. Center has applied to the AKC CHF for a grant to continue her research. As of November the application was still pending. I do not know if she has received word yet of approval or denial but will contact her and let you know what I hear. In the meantime, it never hurts for anyone to write a positive letter of encouragement to the AKC CHF asking them to please consider approving her grant application so that she may continue her research. I have not chosen Cornell because I think that the eradication of liver issues in our breed is any more or less important than any other health issue that our breed contends with. But I have chosen Cornell and liver shunt research because I know Dr. Center personally, I know that she is absolutely committed to finding some answers for us and our dogs, I know that she is willing to speak to breeders, to help educate breeders, to help advise breeders in making the wisest choices they can make using the only available knowledge to be had at the moment. And I've seen in person just how much she loves our breed. I had the honor of spending 10 hours with her one day, watching her play with, cajole, reassure, and pamper 15 dogs while doing repeated bloods draws on each of them. You can only begin to know how committed she is and how much love she has for our breed when you watch her hold two 7 week old scared squirmy little puppies while with the utmost care and precision drawing blood from their little jugular veins. In my book Dr. Center walks on water and deserves the benefit of every last dollar that I can spare.

Lynn expressed my sentiments so much better than I ever could when she said "After all, funding is limited and we get more "bang from our buck" if we are trying to tackle only one health problem at a time."

MaryH

[/B][/QUOTE]


MaryH ~ YOU ROCK!!!

Thank you soooooooo very much!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]
DITTO!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Mary.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=498998
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, I whole heartedly agree with this! I would like a list of what should be tested for, to make sure that I haven't missed anything. Can any of our experts help me with that?


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> I also donate money to Cornell University Veterinary School fbo Dr. Sharon Center's Liver Shunt Research Project. Within the research world it is acknowledged that Dr. Center has gone further and come closer than anyone else to unlocking the genetic mystery of liver issues within certain breeds. She can only continue her research if it is funded. Cornell has contributed hundred of thousands of their own dollars toward this research, as have at least a couple of national breed clubs. Dr. Center has applied to the AKC CHF for a grant to continue her research. As of November the application was still pending. I do not know if she has received word yet of approval or denial but will contact her and let you know what I hear. In the meantime, it never hurts for anyone to write a positive letter of encouragement to the AKC CHF asking them to please consider approving her grant application so that she may continue her research. I have not chosen Cornell because I think that the eradication of liver issues in our breed is any more or less important than any other health issue that our breed contends with. But I have chosen Cornell and liver shunt research because I know Dr. Center personally, I know that she is absolutely committed to finding some answers for us and our dogs, I know that she is willing to speak to breeders, to help educate breeders, to help advise breeders in making the wisest choices they can make using the only available knowledge to be had at the moment. And I've seen in person just how much she loves our breed. I had the honor of spending 10 hours with her one day, watching her play with, cajole, reassure, and pamper 15 dogs while doing repeated bloods draws on each of them. You can only begin to know how committed she is and how much love she has for our breed when you watch her hold two 7 week old scared squirmy little puppies while with the utmost care and precision drawing blood from their little jugular veins. In my book Dr. Center walks on water and deserves the benefit of every last dollar that I can spare.[/B]


I knew about Dr. Center but had no idea she is this committed to finding the answers from the genetic aspect for Liver Shunt. Mary this is wonderful. And I would like to thank everyone for the hard work it is going to take to move this forward, Kudos to you all.
Tina


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

MaryH, would you please tell us exactly how to go about making contributions to Dr Center's research? Thank you.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Sharon, I really enjoyed your posts and information as well as your
ideas. I too believe vaccinosis has caused many complications.
I hope in the future you will make yourself known her more often.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> Sharon, I really enjoyed your posts and information as well as your
> ideas. I too believe vaccinosis has caused many complications.
> I hope in the future you will make yourself known her more often.[/B]


Thank you Brit. I have done so much research on vaccinosis and the more I learn, the scarier it gets. Thank goodness that I have never believed in yearly vaccines even before the research came to light. I have always given the puppies series and the first year shots including the rabies and that is it. 

I don't have a lot of time usually but decided to have a "do nothing" weekend :biggrin: But I will try to visit this forum a bit more often. There are a lot of very interesting and informative posts that have been made on here.

As a side note, I think that Cosy is one of the cutest Maltese I have seen in a long time...........I love her face!!!!! :wub:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Sharon if you do not mind and if you can find the time will you please either PM me the information on Vaccinosis or email me directly at [email protected]. I am trying to do things the best way that it is for the babies and I am worried myself about over vaccinating. It is time for my yearly boosters but I have not done it yet. I am too scared to. 
Thank you in advance. 

And about Cosy I am in love with that baby. :wub: :wub: Which Brit already knows that. But I had to say it just one more time. :wub: :wub:


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## BrookeB676 (Oct 17, 2004)

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Maybe if Sharon has the time and doesn't mind sharing, she could post some of her findings in the health forum. I know at least I certainly would be interested. I definitely think that pets are over vaccinated and think at maximum a series should be given every 3 years, if at all. I think it's a topic that everyone would benefit from the information Sharon has found.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Sharon if you do not mind and if you can find the time will you please either PM me the information on Vaccinosis or email me directly at [email protected]. I am trying to do things the best way that it is for the babies and I am worried myself about over vaccinating. It is time for my yearly boosters but I have not done it yet. I am too scared to. 
Thank you in advance. 

And about Cosy I am in love with that baby. :wub: :wub: Which Brit already knows that. But I had to say it just one more time. :wub: :wub:
[/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe if Sharon has the time and doesn't mind sharing, she could post some of her findings in the health forum. I know at least I certainly would be interested. I definitely think that pets are over vaccinated and think at maximum a series should be given every 3 years, if at all. I think it's a topic that everyone would benefit from the information Sharon has found.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Very true Brooke.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> yes, I whole heartedly agree with this! I would like a list of what should be tested for, to make sure that I haven't missed anything. Can any of our experts help me with that?[/B]



OFA Patellas (1 year of age - don't wait since injuries are also common in the breed)
ACVO/Cerf exam (annually, beginning as a pup)
Thyroid panel (to MSU - a T4 alone is not adequate)
Bile Acids (12 weeks) +/- Protein C
Chem panel/CBC (baseline as pup, annually or so as wellness care)
Cardiac (OFA offers just the auscultation to be registered...we're really looking for PDA in Maltese pups. I feel an auscultation by your regular vet is probably adequate)


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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I have not had much time for the forum. I'm short handed at work, as well as dealing with the babies :wub: 

I would like to add how very impressed I STILL am with this thread. It's been food for thought, and awareness as to donations needed to the cause. It's VERY important we donate, what we can, to the cause. We need research, and research need funds. I'm in :thumbsup: 

This thread has been awesome!! We, at SM. ROCK!!! :chili: :chili: :rockon: :rockon: 

If I may, add one more thing. It's very important to me. I am NOT the "3maltmom" on MO.

Seems odd that the fake "Tina" and another "3maltmom", involved in rescue, and against BYB's, showed up within days. 

I do not have a patent on the name. 

This was just brought to my attention today. I do not frequent MO. I am not a member. I have snooped, but not as a member. I left, as a member, shortly after my Samantha passed, and I discovered SM, along with all of my friends.

I miss my Samantha. And I missed my friends. I was thrilled to find them here.

So Tina, I am so very sorry if you were hurt by this "person", thinking it was me. 

It was not. 

I love ya, and I can certainly see thru the bull crap. :grouphug: 

Please, my comments are late on this. Let it go. This thread has, otherwise, been AWESOME!!!

Ooooops!! One more thing. It was MO's nonsense, not ours.


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

Dr. Center walks on water in my book too!!! The way she took the time to draw me pictures and explain to me what was wrong with Harry was amazing and I could tell that she really felt badly about what she was telling me. She is an amazing woman and I am certain that she is the reason that Harry is alive today. Well.. now to get off of my soapbox...I would love to know how to contribute to Dr. Center's research project. Could someone post the information or pm me? Thanks. Debbie


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> Dr. Center walks on water in my book too!!! The way she took the time to draw me pictures and explain to me what was wrong with Harry was amazing and I could tell that she really felt badly about what she was telling me. She is an amazing woman and I am certain that she is the reason that Harry is alive today. Well.. now to get off of my soapbox...I would love to know how to contribute to Dr. Center's research project. Could someone post the information or pm me? Thanks. Debbie[/B]


My apologies for taking so long to post donation details. I wrote to Dr. Center last week and just today got the following reply:



> Hi Mary,
> 
> I am just putting the last touch on the AKC proposal; there were some questions they wanted addressed.. My collaborators are reading the final response and will be sent in within a few days. We will know within the next 2 months of funding. Looking good though. So, donations should wait until we hear from AKC. If they are not going to sponsor it, send money to Cornell: PSVA/MVD Research: Dr. Center
> 
> ...


So, if her grant application gets approved Dr. Center suggests sending donations to the AKC Canine Health Foundation with instructions that the donation be added to the Maltese Donor Advised Fund. That way, any money that the AMA uses from that fund to support Dr. Center's research may be matched by the AKC CHF. If the AKC CHF does not approve her grant application then Dr. Center suggests sending the money directly to Cornell. The addresses for both organizations are:

The AKC Canine Health Foundation
PO Box 37941
Raleigh, NC 27627-7941
Link to Donation Form: http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/donor_form.pdf

Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine
PO Box 726
Ithaca, NY 14851
Please make checks payable to Cornell University and send with a note that your donation be applied to "PSVA/MVD Research: Dr. Center"

MaryH


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I've been on vacation for 10 days and am just catching up to this thread. Wow! There is much info to be learned here. I have no idea what has gone on with hoaxes. Would someone please PM me with details. LOL. Anyway, I am keenly aware that maltese have some issues. I would just like to see our breed club acknowledge the maltese problems as the Pugs are doing with PDE and the King Charles Cavs have done with heart murmur. Thanks for the great info......


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Mary,
Thank you for posting this information here for us. I am in hopes that change is in the process of happening. Joe should be proud of his forum and the members we have that have came together in this thread along with others and not gotten out of control too hastily. I want to say thank you everyone for that. 
Thank you again!!!


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

That is wonderful info. I've printed the addresses and the copy of the form from the AKC site. I'll wait to hear if Dr. C gets the grant to mail.


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## honeybun (Mar 6, 2007)

Hope this information will be of interest to your discussion.

(Canine Research Grants ANKC}


Grants awarded in 2008 Project title Investigations into the immunological memory of dogs vaccinated with commercial vaccines.
The study being tpo provide information on the immunity of pet dogs following vaccination.
The second project being
Investigation of serum bile acids tolerance testing and liver function.
The study is to determine whether the bile acids tolerance test adult dog reference is appropiate to assess liver functions in young puppies. Also the mode of inheritance in portosytemic venous anomalies is also to be investigated with DNA being collected for with the aim of developing a genetic test for portosystemic shunts.
The third area of research covers Auto immune diseases.
The aim of the project is to screen a large amount of dogs with auto immune diseases.
These diseases being listed as:
Immune mediated haemolytic aneamia
thrombocytopenia
diabetes mellitus
GME
Addisons disease
Immune mediated polyarthritis
These research projects are being carried out at the Murdoch University in WEstern Australia, The Sydney University NSW and the Melbourne University in Victoria.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: Wow! What good news! All of those things are in my mind constantly. I am just so glad to see these studys being done. Wonderful news. :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> Hope this information will be of interest to your discussion.
> 
> (Canine Research Grants ANKC}
> 
> ...



This is great news. In talking to my vet last week about a puppy he told me they (Kansas State) started testing to find out how liver shunt was acquired. He said the data was too much for them to sift through and make a definitive way it was acquired. So, it got side lined. He was glad to hear that Dr. Center was applying to AKC for a grant to study this. Having worked in the research end of programs, I hope Dr. Center is successful with her study.
Tina


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: Wow! What good news! All of those things are in my mind constantly. I am just so glad to see these studys being done. Wonderful news. :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:[/B]



I second that!! :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I've been combing thru the AKC Canine Health Foundation website and cannot find anything mentioned with regards to maltese and Liver Shunts (see site: http://www.akcchf.org/research/breed_interest.cfm). This is disappointing. The areas for maltese interest are GME, IBS, Legg Calf Perthes (???) and Pancreatitis. Nothing on luxating patellas is also quite disappointing considering how many SM members have had to deal with it.

Am I missing anything? When I look for grants by institution, nothing for Dr. Center at Cornell.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> I've been combing thru the AKC Canine Health Foundation website and cannot find anything mentioned with regards to maltese and Liver Shunts (see site: http://www.akcchf.org/research/breed_interest.cfm). This is disappointing. The areas for maltese interest are GME, IBS, Legg Calf Perthes (???) and Pancreatitis. Nothing on luxating patellas is also quite disappointing considering how many SM members have had to deal with it.
> 
> Am I missing anything? When I look for grants by institution, nothing for Dr. Center at Cornell. [/B]


Read back to Mary's post. Dr. Center is applying for a grant from AKC. It has not been awarded yet.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Oops, I see it now, her application is due March 3.....I guess the other posts got me excited too early. :huh:


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I am excited about the changes that are taking place in mine and my mentors (Sharon Girven-Blue Hill Maltese) programs. Sharon has been in contact with Dr. Center and we are going to be participitating in the research. Our vet is going to be in constant contact with her and doing the blood work required and then sending it to her. In this process we are in hopes that it will help to make sure that ALL of our breeding dogs are clean of the disease and also our puppies. It is going to be costly but isn't that what we are suppose to do. Put what we make off the sell of the pet puppies back into our programs. And genetics is a very important part of it along with everything else. I am so proud to know that Sharon and I, along with others, will be doing what we can to contribute.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

:thumbsup: Becky, you have made my day! Thank you so much. You are brave and conscientious and could be listed as a pioneer in the health history of the Maltese breed some day. :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## journey (Feb 8, 2006)

Becky, That is wonderful! :chili: My breeder had no idea that Gnocci would inherit a liver shunt. Someday, major genetic defects will be avoided.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> :thumbsup: Becky, you have made my day! Thank you so much. You are brave and conscientious and could be listed as a pioneer in the health history of the Maltese breed some day. :aktion033: :aktion033:[/B]





> Becky, That is wonderful! :chili: My breeder had no idea that Gnocci would inherit a liver shunt. Someday, major genetic defects will be avoided. [/B]


Ladies when I read your post they brought tears to my eyes. I do not want to be a pioneer. I just want to help insure that the love of my life is as healthy as God created them to be. 

Thank you for your comments they really touched my soul.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> I am excited about the changes that are taking place in mine and my mentors (Sharon Girven-Blue Hill Maltese) programs. Sharon has been in contact with Dr. Center and we are going to be participitating in the research. Our vet is going to be in constant contact with her and doing the blood work required and then sending it to her. In this process we are in hopes that it will help to make sure that ALL of our breeding dogs are clean of the disease and also our puppies. It is going to be costly but isn't that what we are suppose to do. Put what we make off the sell of the pet puppies back into our programs. And genetics is a very important part of it along with everything else. I am so proud to know that Sharon and I, along with others, will be doing what we can to contribute.[/B]



[attachment=32576:bravo.gif][attachment=32576:bravo.gif][attachment=32576:bravo.
if]


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Becky, that is excellent news, you ARE a pioneer! I really think that the more breeders who start to do this testing, the more adopted it will become in the responsible maltese breeding world. And standard testing would become an easy way to differentiate between puppy mills and BYBs! As others have mentioned, the Havanese breeders do routine testing of their breeding stock and puppies prior to placement. Thank you and Sharon for taking a bold step in the right direction for the health of the breed!


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Thank you Marj. 


> Becky, that is excellent news, you ARE a pioneer! I really think that the more breeders who start to do this testing, the more adopted it will become in the responsible maltese breeding world. And standard testing would become an easy way to differentiate between puppy mills and BYBs! As others have mentioned, the Havanese breeders do routine testing of their breeding stock and puppies prior to placement. Thank you and Sharon for taking a bold step in the right direction for the health of the breed![/B]


No please dont look at me that way. I am doing it to help the innocent babies and families. Not to be a pioneer. My passion and love lies with these babies and I will do everything and anything that I can to insure their health and happiness. 

Tami you are so right about the puppy mills and BRB's not doing the testing. The Mills definitely will not shell out the money to insure the health of the babies. They do not care about their health. Or the unsuspecited new owner's feelings. The BRB's may if and when they hear about it. But in all honesty them finding out the facts and truth about breeding in a correct manner is very unlikely. I believe that if they did they would do one of two things, either do the testing or quit breeding. That is JMHO though.


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## Rhapsody Maltese (Nov 16, 2005)

Hello everyone,

From time to time I try to follow along with the posts on Spoiled Maltese. I am not always able to participate but I do try and be helpful when I can. My busy schedule makes it hard for me to do this on a constant basis, but I do try my best 

I, also, happen to be on the AMA Health Committee. The AMA Health Committee has been reorganized and has a new found energy to try and be more productive in assisting both the breeders and pet owners alike. Our goals are to help educate the Maltese Fancy about breed related health issues, to come up with a health testing protocol for health issues relevant to Maltese, and participate in CHF, OFA and CHIC programs. To reach our goals we have much work ahead of us. We are still in the preliminary stages of the huge task ahead of us, but we are here to help as we can. Please watch the AMA web site this spring for new Health Issues web pages.

I would like to post some preliminary information, but mind you this is from me personally not from the AMA.

First, please be careful with the term "genetic testing". As far as I know there is no such thing as "genetic testing" for any breed. There are some DNA markers for very specific health issues but no general "genetic testing" that is DNA based. This term can be used sometimes through ignorance of the meaning and sometimes to purposely mislead puppy buyers. There is no "wonder test" that we can "run" that will prove that there is no and will be no health problems in any one particular dog.

Health Screening or Health Testing are more proper terms to be used by breeders who are health screening their puppies and adults.

At this time, there is only ONE DNA genetic marker for a Maltese related health issue, and that is for Glycogen Storage Deficiency (GSD). This is a test that can be run from a few drops of blood on DNA paper and then sent to the appropriate lab. At this time, we are having difficulty finding the labs that offer this testing at this time. Fortunately for us, GSD is not as prevalent as it used to be. We are adamantly trying to find a reliable testing facility and will provide that information for breeders as soon as we have it. As this is a single gene recessive trait, pet owners normally will not encounter this health issue as affective puppies truly cannot live long after weaning.

Some of the other possible testing that breeders can choose to use when screening their adults and puppies are as follows:

***Health checkup by vet - at 12 weeks and as adults (basic wellness checkup - i.e. basic manual checkup of ears, eyes, heart, lungs, etc)

***Patellas (OFA Certification available) - manual exam performed by a vet during a normal office visit.

***ACVO/Cerf eye exam - exam performed by a board certified specialist - not usually run on young puppies but on adults

***Thyroid panel (OFA Certification available) blood test sent Michigan State University (a T4 alone is not adequate) - run as an adult.

***Chem panel/CBC (blood test) - initially done around 12 weeks and then annually or so as wellness care

***Bile Acids (blood test) - initially done at 12 weeks can be followed up by Protein C test - rerun as an adult

***Cardiac (OFA Certification available) - we're really looking for PDA in Maltese pups. Auscultation by your regular vet is probably adequate.

***Hips/Legg Perthes - (OFA Certification available) - xrays can be done preliminarily at 1 year - Hips have to be done after 2 years of age to be OFA Certified.

At this time, there is not an AMA recommended health testing protocol. The tests above are the more common testing procedures that breeders can have their vet run to health test their dogs. Until a formal testing protocol is recommended by the American Maltese Association, I think it would be unrealistic to expect every breeder to have every one of these tests done on every adult and puppy.

For future puppy buyers I would recommend for the time being, to ask what tests are done by the breeders specifically and become educated on the basic terminology.

The major life threatening health issues that we are trying to find more information on are Liver Shunt, GME/NME and PDA.

***Chem Panel/Bile Acid/Protein C are the main tests run to screen for Liver Shunt. This is not a fool proof testing procedure unfortunately, but diligent research is being done to find a DNA marker at this time.

***There are no screening tests for GME/NME sadly.

***Each puppy by 6 to 8 weeks can be examined by a good vet and screened for PDA (heart issue). (There are the very rare occurrences of PDA shunt reopening as an older puppy).

As you can see, even the most ethical breeders are limited in what they can do to make sure they are breeding healthy dogs. It is through selective breeding, health screening, experience, education and ethics that make the difference between a quality breeder and a backyard/puppy mill breeder.

Please feel free to email me privately if any of you have anymore questions. I will do my best to try and help.
Thank you
Tonia Holibaugh
www.rhapsodymaltese.com


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Hello everyone,
> 
> From time to time I try to follow along with the posts on Spoiled Maltese. I am not always able to participate but I do try and be helpful when I can. My busy schedule makes it hard for me to do this on a constant basis, but I do try my best
> 
> ...



Tonia,
I would like to thank you for taking the time to post this. I think you've answered a lot of questions here and I appreciate it!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Wow, Tonia, how kind of you to take the time to help educate us! I'm so glad to know that the AMA is starting to focus on health issues. To help with your efforts, you might want to look at the Havanese Club's Web site. Here's a link to the main site and a direct link to their comprehensive health section:

Home Page: http://www.havanese.org/index.htm

Direct Link to Health Section: http://www.havanese.org/hcaHealth.htm

Thanks again for your post. :grouphug:


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Tonia - thank you for such an informative post! It is very encouraging to hear that the AMA is moving towards having a formal health testing protocol and I eagerly await its adoption. I realize that it will not guarantee 100% health for all maltese, but it most certainly demonstrates the desire for breeders to improve the breed which we all love so much. 

Thank you again for your post. And I must say that you have beautiful maltese, I hope to see you at a show one day.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Tonia, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us. It is exciting to see that Maltese breeders are becoming so proactive about health testing. [attachment=33273:thumbs_up.gif] [attachment=33273:thumbs_up.gif]


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

I would also like to thank you, Tonia. 

Your post was very informative, and how very kind of you to share your experiences/knowledge with us.


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## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

Yes, I would also like to thank Tonia. It is so important to us as pet owners to know that the person we buy our pet from is a responsible breeder. I gleamed so much information from what you wrote today. I want my CeeCee to be around for a long, long time. She is the love of my life!!!!!


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Thank you Tonia for providing us with such welcome information. I pray the health committee will be diligent and strive toward this goal. We pet owners think of these little white guys as our children and want them to safe from these devastating diseases.


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

I want to thank Tonia also. I really appreciate her taking the time to give us that information.


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## powder (Aug 18, 2007)

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I have been a member for sometime here, just reading and learning. When I came across this post I felt I needed to reply. This is a very knowledgable and informative post . I truly appreciate someone of Tonia's caliber taking the time to keep us informed on what the AMA is planning for future health testing . I for one must say : "Tonia ,you are doing a wonderful job." Thank You,Powder


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## jlhajmom (Feb 23, 2008)

I wish I had known this information when I was in the processing of getting my Ava. I sought a breeder who was on the AMA list. She told me she had never had health problems in her lines. I specifically asked about liver shunts and she said, "I have never had a shunt dog." Long story short, Ava had shunt surgery 11 days ago. When I pressed the breeder about the bile acid numbers of the parents (she has both the mom and dad) she said, "I've never tested them." I was floored. I know I can't be angry because that isn't going to change anything. I obviously got Ava for a reason and I will do everything in my power to nurse her back to health so she has a long and healthy life. She is only 19 months old, and has many more years ahead of her. I think the more we can become educated and the better off we all will be. I'm glad to see the AMA stepping up and doing more.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> I wish I had known this information when I was in the processing of getting my Ava. I sought a breeder who was on the AMA list. She told me she had never had health problems in her lines. I specifically asked about liver shunts and she said, "I have never had a shunt dog." Long story short, Ava had shunt surgery 11 days ago. When I pressed the breeder about the bile acid numbers of the parents (she has both the mom and dad) she said, "I've never tested them." I was floored. I know I can't be angry because that isn't going to change anything. I obviously got Ava for a reason and I will do everything in my power to nurse her back to health so she has a long and healthy life. She is only 19 months old, and has many more years ahead of her. I think the more we can become educated and the better off we all will be. I'm glad to see the AMA stepping up and doing more.[/B]


Do you know if she is testing now after this happened with Ava, and did she test Ava's parents? The AMA is just now starting to look at Bile Acids and liver problems. I think it has been pretty hush-hush.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

no idea of *where* it is coming from. If we did we wouldn't have any liver shunt. Breeder's occationally have a shunt show up, so that means both the parents' *might* be carriers of the gene for it. But, again, we are not sure where it's coming from. That is why it should be studied. And I am so glad that Dr. Center is going to hopefully be able to do a study on it. And I am glad that people are coming forward and offering to help her. K State did a study and found there are so many facet's to liver shunt they tabled it. It even showed that it can be caused enviromentally. This is the information I got from my own vet, Dr. Hrencher. Until we get a definative idea of where it is coming from there aren't any answers yet. Look at how Diabetes has evolved. We are finding out that how people live and eat contributes to developing it. 
JMO

Tina


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> no idea of *where* it is coming from. If we did we wouldn't have any liver shunt. Breeder's occationally have a shunt show up, so that means both the parents' *might* be carriers of the gene for it. But, again, we are not sure where it's coming from. That is why it should be studied. And I am so glad that Dr. Center is going to hopefully be able to do a study on it. And I am glad that people are coming forward and offering to help her. K State did a study and found there are so many facet's to liver shunt they tabled it. It even showed that it can be caused enviromentally. This is the information I got from my own vet, Dr. Hrencher. Until we get a definative idea of where it is coming from there aren't any answers yet. Look at how Diabetes has evolved. We are finding out that how people live and eat contributes to developing it.
> JMO
> 
> Tina
> ...



Just because we don't know the precise method shunts and MVD are passed doesn't make testing worthless. If you don't know what you do have, we are not going to get very far. And since you can have asymptomatic shunt dogs, you certainly do NOT want to be breeding them. 

It is well documented that shunts/mvd are hereditary in Maltese, Yorkies, and Cairns.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

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I agree with JMM. Just because we may not know where it is coming from is no reason not to test. Because it is hereditary it's imperative breeders do this. To
continue to breed dogs who have shunt/mvd pups is irresponsible, not just to the future owners of the pups, but to the future of the breed itself.
Having said this, to claim DNA testing is misleading.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> no idea of *where* it is coming from. If we did we wouldn't have any liver shunt. Breeder's occationally have a shunt show up, so that means both the parents' *might* be carriers of the gene for it. But, again, we are not sure where it's coming from. That is why it should be studied. And I am so glad that Dr. Center is going to hopefully be able to do a study on it. And I am glad that people are coming forward and offering to help her. K State did a study and found there are so many facet's to liver shunt they tabled it. It even showed that it can be caused enviromentally.  *This is the information I got from my own vet, Dr. Hrencher. Until we get a definative idea of where it is coming from there aren't any answers yet. Look at how Diabetes has evolved. We are finding out that how people live and eat contributes to developing it. *JMO
> 
> Tina
> 
> [/B]


If I am reading this correctly (in red above) it was Tina's Vet statement not Tina's?? I think we are all in agreement that we need to do the testing and make sure our lines are clean.
Becky


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I would hope that Ava's breeder has discontinued breeding Ava's parents because of her shunt. It would also be nice if she notified the parents of any puppies from them to have those dogs tested?

Is that a reasonable expectation of AMA and responsible breeders?


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## jlhajmom (Feb 23, 2008)

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She told me she did not test Ava's parents because she never had a shunt dog, so why test? Oddly, though, Ava's father was bred with another female and the breeder tested the Dad and all the puppies of that litter. The breeder tried to tell me Ava's blood tests were off because I was feeding her Royal Canine kibbles. Ava did have a sister and I asked about her repeatedly. The breeder said she has never heard from the people that bought her. Because Ava's breeder doesn't follow the AMA code of ethics, I don't think she is really concerned at this point.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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If I were you I would share your story with the AMA. This sort of laissez faire attitude should not be allowed to go unpunished by the AMA.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> I would hope that Ava's breeder has discontinued breeding Ava's parents because of her shunt. It would also be nice if she notified the parents of any puppies from them to have those dogs tested?
> 
> Is that a reasonable expectation of AMA and responsible breeders?[/B]


Yes Tami it is very resonable. And as a responsible breeder I would hope that anyone that may even doubt that a dog in their program may be a carrier would not use them again. And then if he/she was a carrier notify the past puppy owners of such. IMHO
Becky


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

I am not saying that testing for specific illnesses is worthless. I am not saying that parents found to have a pup with a liver shunt shouldn't be tested for liver shunt. Most likely those parents will test negative. I am not saying that those two dogs shouldn't be pulled from her breeding program. Liver shunt is approximately found in 8% of Maltese. If I were to have a puppy or a dog that did or does have any type of shunt everything in that line that I had would be tested. And I would follow through on any puppies that have been placed. That is why we keep records, so we know where the puppies are. (hopefully) Not only that, I would take responsibility in helping the person who owns the dog with medical costs. 
I do the recommended blood work on my dogs. That has nothing to do with DNA. Every male I own and about 1/2 my females are DNA'd. All it proves is that this is the dogs genetic makeup.



> Oddly, though, Ava's father was bred with another female and the breeder tested the Dad and all the puppies of that litter.[/B]


 If this is what Ava's breeder said, the way it is said, makes me believe that she is talking about checking parentage. You use DNA to make sure that a puppy is who that puppy is supposed to be. There are not any DNA marker's for any health issues in Maltese except for GSD. Breeder's are limited in what they can do and test for. 
*Go back and look at Tonia's entry.* 
I am not defending this breeder, but I would hope that this breeder is probably overwhelmed with the information she was given. People need time to think through what they are going to do. I have a plan already in place for if or when I would ever have a liver shunt puppy or dog and it is owned by someone who purchased a dog from me. 
Nothing is more <span style="font-family:Verdana">devastating than finding out that the most precious thing in your life has a life threatening illness. 
Some breeder's do not stay informed about the current health issues in their breed. It's not that they don't care. It's a matter of turning a blind eye to what is going on in the health issues of their dogs. They have never had a case so they are free of this and don't have to worry about it, attitude. 
If I were not on this forum, I would not have any idea of how people think about breeder's. I would not know what most people expect from a breeder. You have opened my eyes to what other's think.
Again, JMO
Tina </span>


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

I called the lady I got Peanut from and she was going to call the breeder she got him from to advise him of Peanut's condition. I told her not to worry about Peanut's half brother I already told his new Mom even though he was neutered that he should be checked. 

The sad thing is she got P from someone in the newspaper so I doubt that BYB will even care that he carries LS in his breeding pair.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> I am not saying that testing for specific illnesses is worthless. I am not saying that parents found to have a pup with a liver shunt shouldn't be tested for liver shunt. Most likely those parents will test negative. I am not saying that those two dogs shouldn't be pulled from her breeding program. Liver shunt is approximately found in 8% of Maltese. If I were to have a puppy or a dog that did or does have any type of shunt everything in that line that I had would be tested. And I would follow through on any puppies that have been placed. That is why we keep records, so we know where the puppies are. (hopefully) Not only that, I would take responsibility in helping the person who owns the dog with medical costs.
> is talking about checking parentage. You use DNA to make sure that a puppy is who that puppy is supposed to be. There are[/B]



Here's why you can't just test IF you find a sick dog:
1. Dogs can have a shunt and be asymptomatic. They may never be diagnosed by symptoms or not until an older age (even 7 or 9!). Why have this dog in your breeding program if you can test. 
2. Shunts are not the only liver problem in Maltese. MVD is also hereditary and, very likely, has a tie to shunts. While an asymptomatic MVD dog need not be culled from the program, you should know what you've got. And symptomatic MVD dogs need to be identified and culled. 
3. You also want to know what dogs you have that are phenotypically normal (normal bile acids). This may be a dog you really want to hold onto and watch what it produces when bred to what. 

Every breeding program is a place to start and a place where we can potentially learn something new. Affected pedigrees can be used for research by people like Dr. Center who are working so hard to find the gene. If you don't do the testing, you are breeding completely blind...while our tools are not perfect, they're a starting point. 

and the TOP REASON why you test your dogs is so that you do NOT sell a puppy that may be sick to an unsuspecting owner. I've been the unlucky party in that case...and it is expensive both financially and emotionally.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

I understand what you are saying Jaimie. You feel that a breeder should test for health issues and not wait until it shows up before doing so. Because asymptomatic dogs can be in your breeding program. That way you know what you have started with. *I think that you are right 100%*.
Another side of the coin is: You can test for liver shunt all the dogs you have in your breeding program. They can all come up negative and the blood work can show that all the dogs tested do not have any signs of LS. Down the road a few years a liver shunt puppy/dog shows up. It is not fool proof. You can't rely on that testing and feel you are home free. It can still show up no matter how many precautions or testing you do. 
I also understand that for those of you who have dogs with LS,MVD, GME/NME and PDA wish that their breeder had been able to foresee this in their breeding program and stopped it before a puppy had been born with it. I wish that too. I wish when it happens that the breeder steps up and takes responsibility and helps with it. And then looks at their breeding program to know where to go from there. 
Tina


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I do want to add that Dr Center is trying now to find a way to tell when the dog is carrying the recessive gene to the shunt. By what I understand her telling me is happening is when we have all these gene that lead back to the same exact bloodline (which a lot do) that we are now breeding the recessive to the recessive and producing the shunt. She is needing every bloodline that she can possibly get to help and identify the gene. 

That is why her study is so important in my eyes. So that she can hopefully find a way for us (breeders) to know when we have the recessive gene and not breed it to another dog with the same gene. 
Becky


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

That will be quite a feat for Dr. C since many backyard and mill breeders have a
conglomeration of lines mixed together...and adding new lines here and
there along the way. JMO


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> That will be quite a feat for Dr. C since many backyard and mill breeders have a
> conglomeration of lines mixed together...and adding new lines here and
> there along the way. JMO[/B]


Not to mention the BYB and Miller's probably don't know there is a study going on to be included in the testing.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> I understand what you are saying Jaimie. You feel that a breeder should test for health issues and not wait until it shows up before doing so. Because asymptomatic dogs can be in your breeding program. That way you know what you have started with. *I think that you are right 100%*.
> Another side of the coin is: You can test for liver shunt all the dogs you have in your breeding program. They can all come up negative and the blood work can show that all the dogs tested do not have any signs of LS. Down the road a few years a liver shunt puppy/dog shows up. It is not fool proof. You can't rely on that testing and feel you are home free. It can still show up no matter how many precautions or testing you do.
> I also understand that for those of you who have dogs with LS,MVD, GME/NME and PDA wish that their breeder had been able to foresee this in their breeding program and stopped it before a puppy had been born with it. I wish that too. I wish when it happens that the breeder steps up and takes responsibility and helps with it. And then looks at their breeding program to know where to go from there.
> Tina[/B]


And, as we've discussed in this thread, that is the downfall of only being able to test for phenotype and is why "genetic testing" is not an accurate description for the "health testing" that is available. 

IMO, how a breeder handles having a problem show up means a lot more to me than just hearing "no, I don't have problems".


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> no idea of *where* it is coming from. If we did we wouldn't have any liver shunt. Breeder's occationally have a shunt show up, so that means both the parents' *might* be carriers of the gene for it. JMO
> 
> Tina
> 
> [/B]


I agree with so much of what is being said in this thread .... the "unkowns" are frustrating and of great concern to all. I do think that the above statement is inaccurate, though. One of the few things that *is known* is that in order to produce a puppy with liver shunt both the sire and the dam *must * be carriers. So running bile acid tests on potential sires and dams will at the very least tell you if you have a dog or bitch with numbers so high that further testing for a possible shunt should be done before breeding. The frustration comes into play because of the fact, however, that *it is also known* that breeding a dog to a bitch who both have bile acid results in the normal range can still produce a liver shunt puppy. There is *no test available to anyone at any cost* yet that can determine carrier status. Sadly, at the present time the only way that anyone who breeds can definitively know if they have a dog or bitch who is a carrier of the defective gene(s) is by producing a puppy with a liver shunt and from that the breeder can know with certainty that both the sire and the dam *are* carriers of the defective gene(s).

MaryH


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

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Well then it's already too late. And all the pups coming from that particular breeding could be carriers even if they themself don't have a liver shunt or high bile acid. How many litters did they have before they got aware of the problem ? That's why I say there is NO GARANTY to get a healthy pup not even from a show breeder where you pay an astronomical price for your pup. And in my opinion, if you are not looking for the perfect pup (like show pup) and rather want a healthy pup, it is better to go with a *good* backyard breeder that does not inbreeding. Show quality does not equate health quality. I am sorry if some of you feel offended, but this is my opinion.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

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It's my understanding that Dr. C is only working with breeders who do have a problem in their breeding programs. 
There are many who don't know there are studies going on, both reputable and otherwise. The internet is helping to get that word out and we are a part 
of speading the word.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I would like to respectfully disagree with the statement that it is better to go with backyard breeders. I don't believe they are even aware if they are doing inbreeding or line breeding with their dogs - many have no idea what the pedigree is of their dogs, so there are no guarantees.

Also, I am not heartsick or upset that my dogs have MVD, especially after all I have learned about it from this forum and Dr. Center. As Jackie said, I don't expect breeders to cull asymptomatic MVD dogs from their breeding programs either. But, I do wish that I had known about this beforehand so that I wouldn't have gotten whipped into such a frenzy when we discovered the high bile acids. I also hope that my breeders use the information to educate their existing and future puppy adoptees.

I understand the limitations of the current testing and that there are no guarantees, but knowledge is power and the more we know the more we can learn to control. In my opinion and limited experience with others who have purchased from them, backyard breeders do not have much knowledge with regards to the breed or the specific health issues, nor do they have any motivation to change their behavior since they are primarily profit driven. Unlike AMA/responsible breeders who are trying to improve the breed and demonstrate this by showing their dogs. JMHO


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Dr Center is looking for every Maltese that any breeder is willing to have tested and take the time and effort to do so. It is not directed to only breeders who have a problem. I know this because I have spoke with her several times via email and on the phone concerning it.

*Edit to add:*

This is part of a email that Dr Center was sending out to my previous puppy owners. I think it helps to pin point exactly what dogs she is testing and why...

_We hope to develop a test that can be used to select the best dogs for breeding (lacking the gene !). At present, measuring the concentration of bile acids in blood identifies individuals that have the gene. We are trying to expand our pedigree of dogs for fine gene mapping and are interested in recruiting xxxxx name of dog here xxxxx to the study. He is a member of a pedigree that is already contributing to the project. We would like to obtain a sample of xxxx name of dog herexxxxx blood for DNA testing and for measurement of bile acids. We can arrange to measure the bile acids in our laboratory. 

We are entering the stage of fine gene mapping and must include individuals from large pedigrees. I will be happy to talk with your veterinarians if that will help._

Becky


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

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It's my understanding that Dr. C is only working with breeders who do have a problem in their breeding programs. 
There are many who don't know there are studies going on, both reputable and otherwise. The internet is helping to get that word out and we are a part 
of speading the word.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Dr Center is looking for every Maltese that any breeder is willing to have tested and take the time and effort to do so. It is not directed to only breeders who have a problem. I know this because I have spoke with her several times via email and on the phone concerning it.

*Edit to add:*

This is part of a email that Dr Center was sending out to my previous puppy owners. I think it helps to pin point exactly what dogs she is testing and why...

_We hope to develop a test that can be used to select the best dogs for breeding (lacking the gene !). At present, measuring the concentration of bile acids in blood identifies individuals that have the gene. We are trying to expand our pedigree of dogs for fine gene mapping and are interested in recruiting xxxxx name of dog here xxxxx to the study. He is a member of a pedigree that is already contributing to the project. We would like to obtain a sample of xxxx name of dog herexxxxx blood for DNA testing and for measurement of bile acids. We can arrange to measure the bile acids in our laboratory. 

We are entering the stage of fine gene mapping and must include individuals from large pedigrees. I will be happy to talk with your veterinarians if that will help._

Becky
[/B][/QUOTE]


She's performing bile acids, which, as many of us discussed before is not necessarily going to tell the complete story if the test is negative. I read it as she is testing those who do have a problem and is looking for more dogs from those particular dogs' pedigrees.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Dr. Center is working with both families of affected dogs and families of non-affected dogs. She is (1) measuring bile acids from each blood sample and (2) extracting DNA from each blood sample. She is examining the DNA in dogs from affected families, separately examining the DNA in dogs from non-affected families, identifying the similarities in genetic structure in dogs from affected families, identifying the similarities in genetic structure in dogs from non-affected families, and comparing the results against each other. Her research has progressed to the stage of fine gene mapping. Although the article at the following link is about plants, the explanation of fine gene mapping is excellent and should give you some idea of how progressed Dr. Center's research is.

http://www.icrisat.org/text/research/grep/.../S1_5Bennet.pdf 

MaryH


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> And all the pups coming from that particular breeding could be carriers even if they themself don't have a liver shunt or high bile acid. .... And in my opinion, if you are not looking for the perfect pup (like show pup) and rather want a healthy pup, it is better to go with a *good* backyard breeder that does not inbreeding.[/B]


Genetics is not as simple as "all pups could be carriers." In dealing with a single gene recessive trait where both the sire and the dam are known carriers, there are only four possible ways for the gene for that trait to combine with the end product being 1 affected pup, 2 carrier pups, 1 non-affected pup. Liver shunt is believed to be a polygenic trait, meaning that more than one gene is involved. If two genes were involved there are 16 possible combinations, if three genes are involved there are 64 possible combinations. Some combinations will produce an affected pup, some combinations will produce a carrier pup and some combinations will produce a non-affected pup. Whether a pup is the product of inbreeding, linebreeding, or outcross breeding does not guarantee a healthy or a sickly pup. With linebreeding a breeder knows his/her line, what it has produced in the past and takes that into consideration when planning a breeding. Everybody has to do an outcross breeding from time to time otherwise they get backed into a corner with nowhere to go but an inbreeding. In a perfect world a breeder would outcross to a dog who has never produced a less than perfect trait, whether phenotypically or genotypically. That dog does not exist. People who just breed two dogs together to make puppies with no knowledge or concern for the health history behind their dogs run a far greater risk for producing a less than desirable trait simply because they have no idea what traits travel through the lines of either the sire or the dam. If they knew what traits had been produced (either good or bad) by ancestors they might make different breeding choices .... JMHO

MaryH


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Thank you Mary.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Unfortunately most dog breeders breed for 'type', i.e. face shape, size, coat, ear set, etc. etc........
not perfect genetics.

There does come a point, like now for Maltese, when a breed has to be genetically fine tuned because of saturation of health problems like LS, or LP, etc. Waking up the breeders to this is where we are now. IMO they have given the cuteness factor in their breeding program way too much weight. Maltese are such beautiful creatures they have hung on that too long and left the scientific aspect to 'nature' and it is coming back to bite them in the a^s. :brownbag: 

I have stuck my foot in it several times over the years because I'm not a breeder and don't show so I shouldn't be so interested. :smpullhair: I'm interested because I love the dogs. JM2C


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> Unfortunately most dog breeders breed for 'type', i.e. face shape, size, coat, ear set, etc. etc........
> not perfect genetics.
> 
> There does come a point, like now for Maltese, when a breed has to be genetically fine tuned because of saturation of health problems like LS, or LP, etc. Waking up the breeders to this is where we are now. IMO they have given the cuteness factor in their breeding program way too much weight. Maltese are such beautiful creatures they have hung on that too long and left the scientific aspect to 'nature' and it is coming back to bite them in the a^s. :brownbag:
> ...


1. Type refers to breed type. This means a Maltese looks like a Maltese and not another breed. 

2. I bet you are referring to "style" such as a particular type of face or neck. 

3. The problem with your statement is that a breeder MUST breed for looks to have our Maltese continue to be the small, white, drop coated dolls that they are. If you throw that out, you lose breed type. In addition, STRUCTURE is part of both type and style. That includes correct angulation, facial structure, etc. These things DO go to reducing orthopedic problems (a correct rear should not provide for luxating patellae).

4. Breeders do not breed for one look and throw everything else out with the bathwater. Just because breeders do not KNOW how health screening can help does not mean they are purposefully breeding sick dogs or health problems. 

5. You need to understand genetics and dog breeding before you start jumping on breeders as being bad. Even screening all of your dogs for liver shunt, you will have carriers. This is a polygenic trait and not something simple to remove. If you breed long enough, you WILL encounter health problems. That doesn't make you a bad breeder. Its what you do at that point that matters. Breeders are NOT GOD! They cannot simply do a phenotypic test and not produce a problem ever again. We have a STARTING point with testing bile acids. Not a 100% solution. That's where Dr. Center comes in. Breeding for looks does not negate breeding for health. And breeding a specific look does not make health worse. You must have both to be successful.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

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Jackie, I admire you and your knowledge, but if you are speaking to me here, I need to point out......

1. & 2. Yes, by your definition I do mean 'Style'.

3. & 4. I did not nor would I ever suggest that breeders not keep the "style" or structure of the Maltese. I love the look and style of Maltese! but like I did say and mean, the breed can not go on breeding for this look without the new science to keep them healthy. Thankfully we are starting to have the advantage of some testing for bile acids and Pro C and some breeders are starting to listen and learn and change.
And please, I did not even infer that breeders would purposely breed sick dogs, etc.


5. What you said about breeding is absolutely true, however, I am not "jumping on breeders for being bad". I'm suggesting they should have been more proactive years ago in their breeding where the health of the dogs is concerned. That is starting to happen and the AMA Health Committee is starting to get involved finally. Wouldn't it have been nice if it wasn't the pet owners with sick dogs that cost us a fortune to save, that had to be the ones that are insisting that this change happen. There are Maltese breeders who have for years kept quiet when they should not have done so about some of the health problems which have become so prevalent today. I've received severe criticism for letting it be known who is in Shoni's pedigree, although I did not do so publicly in connection with his liver disease. The wrath of breeders to protect their lines is not pleasant. This not from my breeder, but decended on my breeder from a breeder of one of Shoni's bloodlines because of Shoni's problem. Is it my fault for ending up with a dog with a liver problem. I didn't breed any of his ancestors, and I'm not going to hide his problem to my friends here that might gain knowledge from my experiences. So before I knew about his problem I shouldn't have bragged about his family? Sorry this is a whole other subject I didn't intend to discuss.

Lastly, what do phenotypic and polygenic mean? If we are going to be learning from these discussions some need to be talked to in a way they can follow. Poly I get, but not pheno.

You sound like you took offense personally to something I've said and I don't mean anyone to take my feelings about this subject personally. We are just discussing the future of our breed. So I appologize if that is the case.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

My problem comes when you say that breeders in general are taking cuteness and style over health and science. 

Genetics includes all of those "looks" and "cuteness". Good breeders use the principals of genetics, looking at pedigress, etc. to decide on what dogs they breed together. It isn't a lack of the use of genetics...it is that health testing and research on some of these diseases is NEW. And how these tools can be used is NEW. 

I, personally, am tired of breeders being demonized for the problems in our breed. With liver disease, we're talking about a mostly invisible problem. Instead of jumping on how bad a breeder is for producing a problem, how about letting them know how we can prevent it. Do you honestly think they purposefully forgot about their dogs' health in breeding? I highly doubt it for any reputable breeder. 

If you do not understand genetics and principals of breeding, then learn about it before you talk about it. By all means support health testing and education. But if you do not have the knowledge and experience, stick to referencing those who do (particularly published veterinary literature). Being alarmist every time a dog sneezes that it has liver shunt is not helpful either.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Just for the record, that's my generic gripe...other than the single statement directed at a previous post.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

For anyone interested in reading up on genetics, here's a couple of books that you can buy online through Amazon or Barnes & Noble. I don't have a medical or veterinary background. What I've learned for the most part has come from the books I have purchased for the purpose of learning more.

Control of Canine Genetic Diseases - Dr. George Padgett
Breeding Better Dogs - Dr. Carmen Battaglia

Polygenic means more than one gene.

Genotype - the genetic makeup of the organism (for our purposes, the dog)

Phenotype - the external manifestation of an organism - what you can see or measure - and is an expression of both genotype and the enviornment. The phenotype could be eye color, hair length, a straight front or something that can be measured, such as blood sugar or hormone levels (or again in our case, bile acids).

A simple example of genotype and phenotype: the genotype is the genetic makeup that produces luxating patellae; the phenotype is knees that keep popping out of their sockets.

MaryH


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> 5. What you said about breeding is absolutely true, however, I am not "jumping on breeders for being bad". I'm suggesting they should have been more proactive years ago in their breeding where the health of the dogs is concerned. That is starting to happen and the AMA Health Committee is starting to get involved finally. Wouldn't it have been nice if it wasn't the pet owners with sick dogs that cost us a fortune to save, that had to be the ones that are insisting that this change happen. There are Maltese breeders who have for years kept quiet when they should not have done so about some of the health problems which have become so prevalent today. I've received severe criticism for letting it be known who is in Shoni's pedigree, although I did not do so publicly in connection with his liver disease. The wrath of breeders to protect their lines is not pleasant. This not from my breeder, but decended on my breeder from a breeder of one of Shoni's bloodlines because of Shoni's problem. Is it my fault for ending up with a dog with a liver problem. I didn't breed any of his ancestors, and I'm not going to hide his problem to my friends here that might gain knowledge from my experiences. So before I knew about his problem I shouldn't have bragged about his family? Sorry this is a whole other subject I didn't intend to discuss.[/B]


Dee, I can certainly empathize with your frustration over the past few months in trying to figure out what was causing Shoni's high bile acid results, but despite my empathy for your situation, I really feel that the above statements are very unfair. Do you personally know that many breeders that you feel it is accurate to broadly state that "they should have been more proactive years ago?" How do you know that breeders were not proactive years ago (and, by the way, bile acid testing was not around "years ago")? How long has Sharon Center been doing research on liver issues? Years!! And who do you think has been providing encouragement, funding and blood for all those years? Breeders!! Perhaps you don't, but I do know several breeders who have been bile acid testing for a number of years. Pet owners with sick dogs are not the only people in the world who have suffered both emotionally and financially because of a sick dog. Can you even begin to imagine the devastation a breeder feels when he/she breeds a puppy with a health problem, particularly if it is a genetic problem? Some breeders have chosen to spay/neuter everything they own and start over. Some breeders never start over because they were too drained, emotionally and financially. The desire and quest among breeders for answers to health problems has been going on for decades longer than Spoiled Maltese has even been in existence. Taking unfair pot shots at the AMA won't get any of us the answers we want any more quickly either.

MaryH


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Well if you paid top dollars and went to a reputable breeder and end up with a sick dog, you have every right to get frustrated, don't you think so ?
I never had any illusions that buying from a show breeder at top dollars will garanty me a healthy dog. No matter how careful they are in their breeding, they can end up with sick dogs too and since some illnesses come out only years later they will have breed many litters in the meantime. What I find frustrating is that in the forums *people are make to believe* that buying from a show breeder at top dollars will give them a healthy dog. And buying from a backyard breeder will give them a sick dog. How many times has it been mentioned that it is better to spend 3,000.00 $ up front by buying from a show breeder then buying from a backyard breeder and spending 3,000.00 $ down the road if the dog is sick. What's the difference ? The price is the same. There are good show breeders and bad ones. There are good backyard breeders and bad ones. Stop advertising that ONLY show breeders can give you a healthy dog. This is NOT addressed to somebody specific and certainly not Jacky or Mary. And maybe I should have started a new thread. Sorry but I am frustrated too.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> Well if you paid top dollars and went to a reputable breeder and end up with a sick dog, you have every right to get frustrated, don't you think so ?[/B]


I'd be upset if one of my dogs was seriously ill, no matter what I paid for him or her.



> I never had any illusions that buying from a show breeder at top dollars will garanty me a healthy dog. No matter how careful they are in their breeding, they can end up with sick dogs too and since some illnesses come out only years later they will have breed many litters in the meantime.[/B]


I couldn't agree more.



> What I find frustrating is that in the forums *people are make to believe* that buying from a show breeder at top dollars will give them a healthy dog. And buying from a backyard breeder will give them a sick dog. How many times has it been mentioned that it is better to spend 3,000.00 $ up front by buying from a show breeder then buying from a backyard breeder and spending 3,000.00 $ down the road if the dog is sick. What's the difference ? The price is the same. There are good show breeders and bad ones. There are good backyard breeders and bad ones. Stop advertising that ONLY show breeders can give you a healthy dog. This is NOT addressed to somebody specific and certainly not Jacky or Mary. And maybe I should have started a new thread. Sorry but I am frustrated too.[/B]


Janine, thanks for letting Jackie and me off the hook here! You are not alone in your frustration about the advice put forth on this and so many other public forums about where to buy a dog. I will always defend good breeding practices (and I do believe that linebreeding is a good breeding practice), but, personally, I'm not a label shopper nor am I an internet shopper. And I'm always disheartened when I read things like "Oh, yes, buy from XXX because she has a bunch of champions, or baby dolls faces, or puppies that only grow to be 4lbs. or whatever." For $$$$$ I want to see, touch, hold, etc. I would absolutely discourage anyone from buying from a petshop. However, everytime I read a post about how "your dog who came from a petshop is sure to die from some awful disease or medical condition" I practically burst into tears. Why? Because how then am I supposed to place rescue dogs when 90% of the ones we take into our rescue program are dogs with PETSHOP ORIGINS. And they are not dying off early. They are happy, well-adjusted, sweet, adorable, naughty, loving, HEALTHY dogs. When looking to add a pet to my family, what is far more important to me than a price tag or a pedigree is the click between the seller and the buyer.

Jackie said it best when she said that health screening is a START, not a GUARANTY. Along with reading the books that I mentioned in an earlier post, I would also recommend that people read some of the articles on the Bichon Club's website written by Dr. Jerrold Bell, a breeder and vet whose area of expertise is canine genetics. More of my humble opinion ...


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

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Since everything I say on this subject is being screwed around to be something it isn't I will not try again to answer except to say my 'frustration' you refer to is not over my dog Shoni. It has been there long before Shoni. I can only speak from personal knowledge and have done so. If you are familar with my posting over the last 3-4 years you would know I have a great love for the good breeders and their dogs and admire their strength in being able to do what they do with the breed. I believe that with the new leadership at AMA it will be diligent in helping Maltese lovers have healthy dogs.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I feel a little compelled to come to Dee's defense. I think Jackie and Mary are making excellent points, however, once again we are being pointed to another breed club's health information site, in this case the Bichon and previously the Havanese. The frustration is not that we think breeders don't care or that they aren't doing anything to better the breed including their health. The frustration I think Dee feels and I know I do, is that the AMA does not _appear _to be promoting health or educating maltese owners about health issues on their website.

I think we all agree that genetic issues is a sensitive topic for breeders - they love this breed as much, or more, as we do and are devoting a good portion of their lives to them. I understand that and I don't fault breeders for health issues that arise. However, I don't like to feel like its something that is swept under the rug and in some situations it appears as if it is. I would hope that competitiveness and politics do not contribute to this, but I am afraid it does. The most important thing for people to realize is that it is not the responsible breeders fault and that discussing a sick dog or potentially sick dog is not an attack on the breeder.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> I feel a little compelled to come to Dee's defense. I think Jackie and Mary are making excellent points, however, once again we are being pointed to another breed club's health information site, in this case the Bichon and previously the Havanese. The frustration is not that we think breeders don't care or that they aren't doing anything to better the breed including their health. The frustration I think Dee feels and I know I do, is that the AMA does not _appear _to be promoting health or educating maltese owners about health issues on their website.[/B]



Take part in the solution and be part of the project. The Havanese website is NOT run by their national breed club, but by a separate organization called HEART. 

Pass on your favorite health links to the AMA - but PLEASE BE SURE THEY ARE FROM REPUTABLE, VETERINARY SOURCES. Write an article! Educate yourself so you are an advocate for the breed (Dr. Battaglia's book is awesome and he spoke at our last national - check out Mary's recommendations). Let the AMA know of your interest as a pet owner (heck, you can even apply to join if you so wish). 

Compared to other national breed clubs, the AMA is tiny. And, sure, it has its faults - I'm not trying to say its perfect. But let's be proactive. Instead of complaining, change something! Much of what we post about here is new (how bile acids are utilized, the hunt for the gene, chemotherapy for GME). It has not been around for years. It is still in the digesting phase...we will get there if people show their support. 

5 years ago, I wouldn't shut up about my sick dog. And I won't shut up today (sorry guys ;-p). I'll answer all of the e-mails and phone calls happily to be part of the solution. Its a small part, but its still helpful to those in need. I know there are people on this site whom I have spoken with well into the night and have my cell phone number. And I don't hand it out for a pat on the back...I do it because I know first hand how it feels to have a sick dog and no answers. I don't want anybody else to be stuck in that spot. 

Keep your eyes and ears open and learn. Find a way to be part of the solution. And if you need help or don't have a solid grasp of something, ask! You'd be surprised who will come out of the woodwork to lend a hand when asked.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I think, as Tonya implied in her post, that the AMA is going to be making
some very positive changes. Not all change comes swiftly, as we all know,
but with all the education and information at our fingertips now, there is
more opportunity to advocate for these changes. We all need to be advocates
for honesty and integrity in breeding practices as well as the adherence to
the description of the breed. The AMA is a very small part of the maltese
breeding community. The larger problems come from those breeders who simply
believe in putting two dogs together and selling the offspring. Although there
are some problems in even the best lines, there are many more in the ones
that have no lines to speak of and those will be the tough ones to track.
Yes, my dogs are from a top breeder. Yes, I would rather pay top dollar and
have less chance of a sick animal, NOT because I can say I am a snob, but
because I do NOT want to see an animal suffer because of my ignorance in
buying from someone who does not know or even attempt to know what
they are doing, thus promoting more of said same. I do believe the majority 
of exhibitor/breeders do care and are trying. Educating prospective pet owners
is one way of advocating for the health of this breed. Until these problems
are resolved it is all we can do other than keeping abreast of new information,
testing and studies.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> Is it my fault for ending up with a dog with a liver problem.[/B]


Dee,
I thought that I read somewhere that Shoni's Protein C test came back in the normal range which would indicate no liver shunt. As for the high bile acids with no explanation, may I add here that there are many environmental things that will cause high bile acids............they are NOT all caused by genetics. Some of the environmental things are: heartworm, vaccines, and household cleaners are just a few that can and do cause higher bile acids.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> I feel a little compelled to come to Dee's defense. I think Jackie and Mary are making excellent points, however, once again we are being pointed to another breed club's health information site, in this case the Bichon and previously the Havanese. The frustration is not that we think breeders don't care or that they aren't doing anything to better the breed including their health.[/B]


We, the AMA Health Committee, as well as the AMA have been working on getting Maltese Health information up onto the internet. Everything takes time but it IS in the works for the very near future.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

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Hi Sharon,
That is correct. Shoni's 2nd Pro C was in normal range, that is why I no longer am concerned about it. He had 2 bile acids tests both high, had only had 1 pill of Interceptor(it supposedly is not harmful to the liver) and it was months before the tests. He has only had his 3 puppy shots and not been exposed to more than dish soap on the floors. If he were older and I had not already been aware that environmental factors, food, shots, heartworm pills and such could be harmful--then that reason for a high test would be more likely.


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

I am of the impression that there are a lot of positive changes going on in AMA. That (and other things that I've heard) would lead me to believe that AMA has not (in the past) been all that it could have or should have been. Is that a correct assumption? It certainly sounds like the AMA Health Committee is certainly a huge step in the right direction, and we are all thankful for that.

Are there breeders that are considered top tier, maybe some of the bigger, more well-known breeders that are participating with Dr Center's study? Big breeders that are willingly putting their programs on the line to partipate? Because that is what they are doing in signing on with the study, right? Isn't that what it's going to take to weed out the problems? I know that I don't always express myself clearly, but these are the breeders who own the champions that are being sought out by other breeders to become a part of their programs, and the "less than perfect" are being petted out. And, those are the ones that we pet-people are being encouraged to buy.

Any idea what percentage of the "reputable" breeders are participating? Somewhere I have gotten the impression that there really aren't many breeders stepping up to volunteer for this study. (Please don't take offense - I don't know, that's why I am asking.) If we've a thousand breeders out there and only 5 are volunteering, then our view would be a lot different than if 800 out of a thousand were participating.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> I am of the impression that there are a lot of positive changes going on in AMA. That (and other things that I've heard) would lead me to believe that AMA has not (in the past) been all that it could have or should have been. Is that a correct assumption? It certainly sounds like the AMA Health Committee is certainly a huge step in the right direction, and we are all thankful for that.[/B]


I've been a member of the AMA since 2003, am a member of their Health Committee, their Constitution & Bylaws Committee, and their Board of Directors. I say this with pride, not apology. We (the AMA) are a bit late getting to the party for any number of reasons but not because we don't care. Many positive changes have already taken place. One example is the 2 fabulous seminars at last year's Specialty with all of the costs absorbed by the AMA and offered at no charge to members and non-members alike. More positive changes are in the works. 



> Are there breeders that are considered top tier, maybe some of the bigger, more well-known breeders that are participating with Dr Center's study? Big breeders that are willingly putting their programs on the line to partipate? Because that is what they are doing in signing on with the study, right? Isn't that what it's going to take to weed out the problems? I know that I don't always express myself clearly, but these are the breeders who own the champions that are being sought out by other breeders to become a part of their programs, and the "less than perfect" are being petted out. And, those are the ones that we pet-people are being encouraged to buy.[/B]


Dr. Center, like any other doctor, is obligated to respect patient/doctor confidentiality and no one should be asking that question. If you can get your head wrapped around the study of genetics, you will come to understand that the success in finding a genetic marker does not depend on testing dogs in well-known pedigrees. That's not how it happens. What is needed a representative number of related dogs in affected families and a representative number of related dogs in non-affected families. Read my earlier post in this thread about comparison techniques. Now I'm going to bring this down to a level of absolutely "no basis in science" to help you guys understand how the marker gets found:

It's a snowy Sunday and you decide to bake some cookies. You use your basic chocolate chip cookie recipe but decide to experiment. First you mix up your standard batch. Then you mix up a batch where you combine brown sugar with white sugar, thrown in 2 eggs instead of one, use white chips instead of semisweet. Lastly, you mix up a batch where you combine wheat flour with white flour, use all brown sugar, mix semisweet and dark chocolate chips and throw in some raisins. Now you bake them a batch at a time, all at the same temperature and all for the same amount of time. The first batch is perfect just like always. The second batch is burned. The third batch is burned on the edges and half gooey in the middle. What caused the second and third batches to fail? Should the oven temperature have been higher or lower? Should they have been cooked for a longer or shorter period of time? Wat it a particular ingredient? Was it a combination of ingredients? Now you have to start comparing ingredients, pull them out one at a time and keep baking batches of cookies at longer and shorter periods of time and at higher and lower temperatures until you get it figured out. Maybe it's one ingredient causing the problem and you've just discovered the single gene recessive trait for ruining a batch of cookies. But what happens if you pull out one ingredient at a time and the cookies keep burning? Maybe you can only get them to stop burning if you pull out two or three ingredients? But what's the magic combination? Here's where you get to unlock the mystery of a polygenic trait. And to answer part of your question, you really don't need to be working with top tier chocolate chips and you don't need 15 different brands of flour to get burned batches of cookies. Burnt cookies are burnt cookies. Please don't pass this example on to anyone because my baking skills are as lacking as my scientific background!

Adding proven scientific knowledge back into this discussion, every dog has 39 pairs of chromosomes (humans have 23 pairs). Each chromosome contains thousands of genes. First you need to find what you think is the right chromosome, then you need to sift through the thousands of genes within that chromosome to find the gene or genes responsible for producing the trait that you want the marker for. So lets not beg every breeder on earth to "get with the program." When I first spoke with Dr. Center she told me why she started down this path using another breed. It was because they had a very small percentage of affected dogs and were willing and able to provide a representative number of related dogs from both affected and non-affected groups. That's why she was able to narrow down the locus for the gene. She then took her research to second breed, with a higher percentage of affected dogs, and was able to use what she already knew to prove the same locus. Then she expanded to Maltese. Now she is at the stage apparently of fine gene mapping which to me means that she is getting closer to what we all want someday -- a genetic marker.



> Any idea what percentage of the "reputable" breeders are participating? Somewhere I have gotten the impression that there really aren't many breeders stepping up to volunteer for this study. (Please don't take offense - I don't know, that's why I am asking.) If we've a thousand breeders out there and only 5 are volunteering, then our view would be a lot different than if 800 out of a thousand were participating.[/B]


Again, it's not important who is participating. What we should all be hoping for is that someday a genetic marker will be found and that once it is all breeders will get clearance before breeding.

MaryH


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## Rhapsody Maltese (Nov 16, 2005)

> I would hope that Ava's breeder has discontinued breeding Ava's parents because of her shunt. It would also be nice if she notified the parents of any puppies from them to have those dogs tested?
> 
> Is that a reasonable expectation of AMA and responsible breeders?[/B]


In a perfect world .... this would be an easy way to eliminate all health problems. But in the case of MVD/Liver Shunt, Dr Center believes that this is "an autosomal dominant mode of inheritance with incomplete penetrance". You cannot perfectly idenitify all carriers as it has been proven that two dogs with normal bile acids can produce a liver shunt offspring. Because the mode of inheritance is thought to be "dominant", the important "gene" or "genes" could come from only one parent. You cannot conclusively identify which of the two parents could be the carrier (or if it is coming from both). So with the above mentality, you would be eliminating dogs from being bred that could be completely genetically clear of of this health issue.

In Maltese we truly have a small gene pool compared to most breeds. To adopt the "spay and neuter both parents of the affected offspring" approach without the possiblity of conclusvie identification of the actual genetic make up of each parent, would put our breed at SERIOUS RISK. This is just ONE of SEVERAL health issues we are identifying as Maltese related health issues. If we use this type of eradication of this ONE health issue, we would put the breed in jeopardy of being seriously affected by another health issue because you would have an exponentially smaller gene pool when you got done "removing" the parents, full siblings, half siblings, brothers and sisters and half-brothers and half-sisters of the parents etc from the Maltese gene pool.

This issue is VERY complicated. Much more information is needed before we can truly make the right decisions about dealing with this health issue.

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I want to be part of the solution! I want to help in any way I can and am fortunate to be in early retirement and have lots of time on my hands. Should I send my bloodwork and pedigree info to Dr. Center? I have asked my breeder about joining the AMA and believe I have 2 other members that will sponser me. Is that the right route? I am a fancier and a new one at that, but have the time and ability to throw myself into research. I'm willing to be a scribe, secretary, data gatherer, web writer, whatever it takes. 

Sharon, Thank you for your participation in this discussion, it is so encouraging to have you and Tonia and the other breeders and AMA members participate on SM. I couldn't agree with you more regarding the health risks of vaccinations, medications, household cleaners and lawn and garden products. Neither of my dogs have ever been vaccinated for rabies and received the bare minimum puppy shots (no lepto, no corona, etc.). They have high titers for distemper and parvo. We don't treat for heartworm as it is not prevalent in our area. We treat for fleas only when we see them, which is rare because they are bathed weekly. We don't have a yard, only decks. And I stopped cleaning my floors with anything other than a vaccum and vinegar+water. But both of my dogs have MVD. I don't think they are ill or will have a reduced quality of life because of it, but it is there and I would like to help get to the bottom of it.

Mary or Jackie or anyone else on the AMA, if you think I should apply for membership, let me know and I will ask for sponsers.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

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Well said Tonia.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> I want to be part of the solution! I want to help in any way I can and am fortunate to be in early retirement and have lots of time on my hands. Should I send my bloodwork and pedigree info to Dr. Center? I have asked my breeder about joining the AMA and believe I have 2 other members that will sponser me. Is that the right route? I am a fancier and a new one at that, but have the time and ability to throw myself into research. I'm willing to be a scribe, secretary, data gatherer, web writer, whatever it takes.[/B]


If you have sponsors and want to join the AMA that would be a nice thing to do.

Tina


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