# Does this count as animal abuse?



## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

I hate to snoop around, but today I was reminded about the Solid K9 training guy who uses prong collars to train dogs. I went to his Facebook page and saw this picture. It says he is making the malt practice a down stay in snow. His down stays last a LONG time. Would this be OK for a maltese? It just looks so uncomfortable and I am not a big snow fan so it might be just me. 


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

Sophie refuses to lay down on the hardwood floor, I don't blame her, it's freezing. I would never make a dog of any breed just lay there in the freezing snow for a long time, it just seems mean to me.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

It is asinine for sure. :smmadder:

There are plenty of ways to "proof" stays that do not need to involve HURTING the animals. I say that both the owner and the trainer should have to lie down on the cold snow for just as long as the dog (preferably with no shirt on) and before anyone says that the dog does at least have a fur coat, I would remind them that these are tropical breeds. Not exactly endowed with coat to protect them from snow.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

This "human" does not deserve one more breath of attention ~ unless it is to be shut down. Seriously he and those who attend his trainings are utterly clueless. Sickens me.


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## WeeGrace (Oct 22, 2012)

I saw this too I pop in and out every now and again to check in the little dog and I had the same reaction I was horrified. Why make a Maltese lie in snow when humans don't even lie in the snow!!! It's horrifying. Daisy won't go out f its frosty never mind snow!!!


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

My opinion is ..........that is definitely a form of abuse!!!!!!!!!!Poor little thing. I know when DH walked Pipper this morning, Pipper kept just falling over in the snow because his little feet were so cold. DH had to pick him up and carry him till his feet warmed up. Laying down for long periods would be unbearable. This really really upsets me seeing this. Just my opinion.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> It is asinine for sure. :smmadder:
> 
> There are plenty of ways to "proof" stays that do not need to involve HURTING the animals. I say that both the owner and the trainer should have to lie down on the cold snow for just as long as the dog (preferably with no shirt on) and before anyone says that the dog does at least have a fur coat, I would remind them that these are tropical breeds. Not exactly endowed with coat to protect them from snow.


:ThankYou::goodpost:


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## nwyant1946 (Jan 2, 2013)

Maltese don't have an undercoat for insulation. That just seems cruel to me. :angry:


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## jenna123 (Aug 13, 2012)

That is cruel! Why can't he do it indoors??? I feel bad already taking Booo to the washroom for 5-15mins :blink: but the weather is not so bad these days here :chili:, hope it stays like this.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

It's been abuse from day one for that poor baby 
In the snow and cold my vet recommends that they wear coats or sweaters
I called the humane society here in Ontario but they say they cannot do anything about it
Seeing this pic is gross just plain gross


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

He can't take it indoors because 'dogs need to practice down stays on all surfaces'. 

So, if this is indeed crazy, is there a way he could be reported? I know all the other stuff he does is crazy too but sadly people still believe in those 'training methods'. 


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

And yes, I was horrified because Gustave won't even go out to pee to our balcony when it's chilly. And we live in Los Angeles!! Poor baby. 


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## Bailey&Me (Mar 8, 2010)

Yikes. I would consider that cruel, absolutely. And I hate to say this because I don't know if it's true but I have a sinking feeling that's a shock collar the poor malt has on. I sure hope not. 


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

This is disturbing. Dominic doesn't even like to walk on the patio when it's cold, I can't imagine torturing my little boy like that.
Can you guys imagine how freeze burn the soft pink skin of that dog can be from this? Plus his internal organs plus everything else. 
It makes me want to go physically hurt that man and the Maltese owner. 


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

If you enlarge the picture it looks to me like the poor little guy has a look of fear on his face. Normally when dogs do what we want them to do, they look so proud of themselves, not fearful.


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## babycake7 (Jan 30, 2012)

That's just cruel! Look at the poor baby...you can tell that he is miserable and afraid! And on top of that, any person knowledgable about maltese knows that they are susceptible to damp weather and need to be kept warm. This makes me super sad!


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

Sickens me! What is the point?!? that is the stupidest "training" scenario for a Maltese. That is the same owners dog of the little puppy. That lunatic "trainer" has a pic of the 13 wk old puppy with a neck collar and leash tied to a moving treadmill. I'm all for training on a treadmill but you should not tie a dog by the neck on it!!!! SO dangerous!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

That man is a lunatic. That *is* abuse. Grrrrrr.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

hoaloha said:


> Sickens me! What is the point?!? that is the stupidest "training" scenario for a Maltese. That is the same owners dog of the little puppy. That lunatic "trainer" has a pic of the 13 wk old puppy with a neck collar and leash tied to a moving treadmill. I'm all for training on a treadmill but you should not tie a dog by the neck on it!!!! SO dangerous!


I saw that too. I was talking to my husband about how 20 min on the treadmill for a maltese pup is probably too much. I don't think Gustave could do even regular ground walking for 20 min when he was 14 wks old. Plus like he points out, a treadmill requires mental work too to regulate your speed etc. 


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

pippersmom said:


> If you enlarge the picture it looks to me like the poor little guy has a look of fear on his face. Normally when dogs do what we want them to do, they look so proud of themselves, not fearful.


Yes! Exactly. Gustave never does a down like that. Something about this dog's posture, his expression... Seems off. 


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## Rocky's Mom (Apr 10, 2010)

It sounds like abuse to me!!!!!:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:


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## Rocky's Mom (Apr 10, 2010)

Sorry, not mad at you of course, I am just mad that this goes on. I agree he should lay in the snow naked for hours! I don't understand why they cannot stop this man from doing this.


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## summer (Dec 3, 2010)

I stopped looking at that facebook page a few days ago as it makes me sick. I did though see that picture and I saw another picture posted of the same dog following a person in the snow. Does anyone know what type of collar is on that poor dog? I'm not sure about this, but to me it looks like the dog has a black box on his neck? I can see it more on the picture that is not posted here. There must be something that can be done to help those poor dogs. Anyone here live in Rhode island? Maybe you would know who can help.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

I have gone to some of the rescue shelters around here but they can't do anything about this. I was blocked from that guys Facebook page going back as I was supposedly harassing him about the choke collar and that I am an ignorant person blah blah blah


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## LoveLucy (Mar 18, 2012)

To me the expression on the dog is "detached." I think she has just gone onto herself, trying to just do what the jerk wants so that she won't get hurt. I think his #1 goal in "training" dogs, is to completely remove their sense of self and their personalities. He's teaching them to do as the human says in order to not get hurt. Frankly, I'd rather have my dog be a little "naughty" at times than to have her looks so "dead" inside. I doubt very much if he plays with the dogs or shows them affection.


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## WeeGrace (Oct 22, 2012)

It makes me sad too I've been going on and he makes the dogs lie for 2-3 hours at a time while the kids are playing around them all got shock collars of some sort. I French wonder do they get any love and affection especially the little ones who depend on love and affection so much. I don't go on his page as much as t breaks my heart


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## LoveLucy (Mar 18, 2012)

OMG! He banned me too! I didn't even comment that much on his stupid facebook page. Just now I tried to comment on his "remote training collar" video in which he states that it is not a shock collar. so I googled "remote training collar" and found this in the FAQ:
"Electrical stimulation from the collar is intended to distract your dog by delivering an unpleasant but harmless electrical sensation. Some people describe this sensation as feeling like the static shock you receive when walking across a carpeted room in your stocking feet and touching a metal cabinet. Is it unpleasant? Yes. Does it cause you harm? No. "
I tried to post that on his page, and request clarification, since that clearly says that it delivers "an electrial sensation simillar to....static shock." I got a "no permission to post or comment on this page. 
Apprently only those people who worship this guy like a god are allowed to comment on his page. I have to say, that really pissed me off.


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## kaeco510 (Sep 28, 2012)

disgusting. What kind of person could knowingly and willingly treat a poor defenseless dog like that? And what kind of person knowingly sends their dog to someone like this????

Like someone posted, I would rather have my Sadie misbehave occasionally and still have personality than have her be perfectly trained but devoid of any life/spark.


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

I don't understand how the owner of that little fluff can stand to see her baby laying in the cold snow like that or how can she stand the look on her baby's face. It would kill me to see Pipper laying there freezing and looking terrified.


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

It really is discusting....and outrages me. I don't understand how people do this to helpless fluffs. What kind of person would even send their dog to him for training...I just don't get it. I looked at his Facebook page and don't understand how people give him the thumbs up. How could anyone approve that a shock collar on a dog is a good training tool. I don't know why there aren't tougher laws for animals. What kind of world do we live in....OMG....:OMG!:


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

One more thing came to mind.....it kind of makes you wonder how he "TRAINS" his own children. Also, I sure would NOT being leaving my baby on the floor with all those dogs around.


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## Tonya123 (Dec 2, 2012)

This is sooo upsetting to me. How can this be allowed in this country. We have so many laws, but not enought to protect children and animals. People like him make me worry about our country.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Exactly, what's the point? Why would you get a dog if all you want from them is to obey their place command for 4 hours? What's the point?!


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## WeeGrace (Oct 22, 2012)

Eiksaa there is no point in having a dog of its going to sight for lengthy hours on end!!! It's awful everytime I see something happen to that little fluff I give daiy extra cuddles. I don't think that poor fluff is going to get any cuddles by the sounds of it.


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## summer (Dec 3, 2010)

Is it not considered animal abuse to Force a dog to lie and stay on the cold snow? If the dog is wearing a shock collar, than he has a choice of being shocked or laying like that on the snow. What kind of choice is that. I think it would not only be uncomfortable to lie on the snow but it would hurt too. :angry: When its cold and I walk on my patio without shoes my feet really hurt.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Hard for me to get on SM much because of my injury and very uncomfotable to sit at my computer but I just saw this and was incensed. Poor baby! And the owner is just stupid leaving her there...she heard all the warnings but didn't care.
Is there are way to get the aspca involved in this in RI by aiming them to the website and pointing some of this out. And what about the local tv stations in Providence for an investigative piece? You might want to try. I wish this guy would get run out of town on a rail.


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## Fluffdoll (Aug 9, 2012)

That is SICK! Please report it!!! I can't even hold an ice cube for too long without it burning my skin. Just imagine that poor baby's sensitive skin being forced to stay on the ice cold snow!!!! That is just so messed up :angry:


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

I am feeling helpless on this situation
I mean look I am not the only one who was blocked from the mad mans face book page
This is really disgusting and truly sad


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## kaeco510 (Sep 28, 2012)

I can't stop thinking about this :-( I'm so disturbed.... I wish I could go to RI and rescue this baby


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

I guess I will be the only person to say that this is not necessarily animal abuse. A Maltese is capable of laying down in the snow for a moment without injury.

I absolutely do not agree with the methods this guy uses to train dogs, but putting a dog (even a Maltese) in a down-stay in the snow isn't going to hurt them. Now, if he were asking for a several minute long down-stay, I would be concerned about that. I would also be concerned if the dog were out in the snow for a prolonged period of time even walking around because of the paw pads (and cold temps).


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

LJSquishy said:


> I guess I will be the only person to say that this is not necessarily animal abuse. A Maltese is capable of laying down in the snow for a moment without injury.
> 
> I absolutely do not agree with the methods this guy uses to train dogs, but putting a dog (even a Maltese) in a down-stay in the snow isn't going to hurt them. Now, if he were asking for a several minute long down-stay, I would be concerned about that. I would also be concerned if the dog were out in the snow for a prolonged period of time even walking around because of the paw pads (and cold temps).


I don't think this is for a moment though. This picture in particular doesn't say for how long this was but he starts with 15 min down stays if you look at all the other content on his FB page. It might be wrong to assume anything, but I find it hard to believe this is one place where he would make an exception.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

I had to go check his facebook pictures. The dog in the snow is "Manolo" lucky enough to be "only" on a 2 weeks training. 

The poor Emme at the other hand... 5 weeks training. I'll post two pictures and it you guys check how disturbing is that. On a side note, my dog has a pitbull friend, an extremely well trained dog but they never ever are alone not for a second and the pitbull knows me for 3 years, she actually acts like a lap dog. Still a pitbull right?

Take a look at these two pictures...


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Manolo is Emme's brother. He's there for a second time. I guess his first 5 week training didn't do so well!


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

eiksaa said:


> Manolo is Emme's brother. He's there for a second time. I guess his first 5 week training didn't do so well!


Oh no poor guy. I guess that's proof enough this training doesn't work. 
Plus why would you like a robot dog anyways? It breaks my heart. 


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

eiksaa said:


> Manolo is Emme's brother. He's there for a second time. I guess his first 5 week training didn't do so well!


How disturbing is that. :angry:


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

Why does this guy block you from Facebook when you ask him about choke collars prong collars etc my friend asked him in a private message why is he letting the small dogs with the big dogs alone . He said to her let the experts be experts you foolish girl and then blocked her. I mean Wth????????


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

eiksaa said:


> Manolo is Emme's brother. He's there for a second time. I guess his first 5 week training didn't do so well!



Hmmmm, I remember the OP clearly saying how well the training worked for Manola.:angry: Guess not as well as she let on.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

Pretty sad the whole thing


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## StevieB (Feb 2, 2012)

Perhaps if you want a dog that will do extended down stays in snow a Maltese is not the right choice. That just seems like torture to me. Maybe training a dog to endure torture would be fine if he's going to be a friggin' Navy Seal. Seems very misguided IMHO. 


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

I have viewed his Facebook page and watched some of his YouTube videos and honestly, other than the fact that I do not agree with remote collars or prong collars, his training methods are good. Instead of training in small 5-10 minute sessions 3x per day like most trainers suggest, he trains 24/7. I have to say, my dogs do MUCH better when I train throughout the day and not just short sessions -- they are much calmer that way and can focus. In his videos he even specifically says that you do not need to use a prong collar or remote collar if you don't want to. So, while I would never send my dog to him for training, I could see myself adapting some of his methods (not the collars!) to get the results I want for my dogs. Would I put them in a down-stay for an hour? No. Should I be able to put them in a down-stay for 10 minutes when company comes over? Yes. I like the way he does SOME of the training.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Do you mind sharing what those things are? One, like you mentioned, is training throughout the day. What other methods do you like?


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## AshleyAndSophiePup (Aug 24, 2012)

This picture upsets me. Emmy looks TERRIFIED. No matter how well trained, that big dog could turn on her in a second and there would be nothing he could have done to stop her in time. The fact is that our small fluffs look like prey to larger dogs, and it brings out the animal instinct in them, you can't train that instinct out of them. Allowing this type of interaction without being closely monitored and both of them leashed would not happen in my book. Especially since he states that it's so Emmy learns her place and that big dogs don't take any nonsense from small puppies. This is him knowingly putting her in a dangerous situation.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

Sweet Jesus that picture makes me want to throw up. That puppy is terrified!


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

That is animal abuse !! That DOES look like some sort of shock collar on his neck and I enlarged the photo and that malt is terrified and has that blank look of fear. Something has to be done to stop this ! Someone should shove that guy's face in the snow ! I'm furious and sad :angry:


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

I worry about the poor pup developing an upper respiratory infection or even worse bronchitis or pneumonia. I live in NW FL and we do get some cold nights here high 20's or low 30's and those days we put jackets on the kids to go out to potty. 

I'm just so appalled, i even contacted Victoria Stillwell on her FB page and have heard nothing, i'm going to check her website and see if there is another way to contact her. 

I know when i took the pups to obedience class and we trained at home as part of our homework the pups loved it, Kelly actually bounced around and was so eager to go in my room for training, they all were when it was their turn. I like to see the joy in the pups faces when they are learning something new and have accomplished it, not the sadness and possibly fear. 

I too was blocked from making comments after the 2nd or 3rd day of commenting how wrong it was to use these types of training methods.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

Interesting how he blocks us after asking valid questions!
If he is not doing anything wrong then why does he block us ?


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## summer (Dec 3, 2010)

maltese manica said:


> Interesting how he blocks us after asking valid questions!
> If he is not doing anything wrong then why does he block us ?


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

I had to back and look at his Facebook. It makes me sad to see that little baby there. All those huge dogs around is frightening! In all his pics you see dogs Everywhere and kids Everywhere!! It looks like a big chaotic mess!


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## LoveLucy (Mar 18, 2012)

I don't think it looks like a healthy living situation for the dogs OR the kids. He's gross. And for those wondering if those black boxes are shock collars, there's really no doubt about that. He sells them on his website--all sizes, all colors:
Collars


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Furbabies mom said:


> I had to back and look at his Facebook. It makes me sad to see that little baby there. All those huge dogs around is frightening! In all his pics you see dogs Everywhere and kids Everywhere!! It looks like a big chaotic mess!


I noticed the same thing. Dog beds everywhere, huge big dogs around little babies, lots of kids, lots of stuff...very chaotic looking.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

So interesting thing my friend went on to his Facebook and he does training for a local animal shelter!!!!!!!!!! Six thousand and plus people like this guy Wth ?????????


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

I agree with you guys on so many points and I went back over his page, raging in my head about how asinine (my new favorite word) many of his methods were. I do not believe in shock collars and all those type of pre historic training methods.

Something I did like though...

*My Dog Training Philosophy*
_“No dog should be killed for any behavioral issue, ever!”_


Behavior problems are caused by people-not dogs. Some dogs are extreamly difficult to work with. I honestly believe, that, though few and far between, there are dogs out there that 'positive reinforcement' type methods (that I and at least most of you prefer) just don't work with.

I do believe there is a place for trainers with.... alternate.. methods, however I don't understand why anyone would send a little puppy to a place like this right after getting it, unless they were just that unprepared and didn't need to be puppy parents anyway....


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

shellbeme said:


> Behavior problems are caused by people-not dogs. Some dogs are extreamly difficult to work with. I honestly believe, that, though few and far between, there are dogs out there that 'positive reinforcement' type methods (that I and at least most of you prefer) just don't work with.
> 
> I do believe there is a place for trainers with.... alternate.. methods,


Agreed! Shocking a dog every time he wants to bite is better than putting him down when it comes down to desperate measures. Basing your whole business on a negative reinforcement philosophy and taking in pups who have nothing wrong with their behavior is just whack though.


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

eiksaa said:


> Do you mind sharing what those things are? One, like you mentioned, is training throughout the day. What other methods do you like?


So, I already mentioned that I like that he trains 24/7 instead of in short bursts. I really think that helps provide a lifelong foundation for training.

I also like that he doesn't yell the word "No" as a correction, he just says "no".

He doesn't use food in training -- and it works. Food lures can be great, and I know you wean them away, but if I can get the same results without food that is even better.

He uses body language for some cues. For instance, I watched a video on "waiting for food". It was great -- I am used to putting my dogs in a "sit" and then a "wait" verbal cue. He uses body language and the food to lure them naturally into a sit position, and then doesn't even say wait. They wait until he says "okay". I love that! He also says "out" and repeatedly takes away the food. That is just like "leave it" but it works great. I tried this method with my dogs tonight and it worked amazingly well.

He does praise the dogs. He praises with words such as "good boy" as well as with petting. His voice is calm and positive throughout all of the training videos and clips I watched.

For about 2 hours now I have been using his methods on teaching "place", as well as "sit" (always a sitstay) and "down" (always a downstay). For a few minutes my dogs were confused because they already knew "place" but that meant to go to the place and lay down. They also obviously know sit and down already but they didn't know they needed to stay in that command until I released them with "okay". After about 3 minutes it clicked and they are really responding well to this method. I didn't use any treats, only praising them after I released the command. London is a HUGE barker and while I can't find any tips from him on barking, she is barking much less tonight because she is focusing on holding her sit or down command. I usually separate the dogs for training, but his method allows me to work with both dogs at the same time. I can have Preston in "place" while I have London sit or down. I can release London without Preston coming also. I'm pretty amazed at the success so far. I release them, let them walk around or play, etc, and when London looks like she's about to start barking at something, I call them back and work with them more.

For me, I'm able to take bits and pieces of what he does and use them in the ways I see appropriate without using harsh methods.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I can't stand to go to his page. Not only do I hate the way he trains dogs, what idiot uses an infant as a training device? He puts his 13 week old baby on the floor with the dogs to "babyproof" them? :exploding:

Animal abuse AND child abuse IMO!


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

LJSquishy said:


> So, I already mentioned that I like that he trains 24/7 instead of in short bursts. I really think that helps provide a lifelong foundation for training.


Won't that be hard for puppies? Can a puppy really sit in place for four hours?



> I also like that he doesn't yell the word "No" as a correction, he just says "no".


I agree. Our trainer recommends this too. Losing your patience is a sign of a negative emotion, one that will only frustrate the dog more.



> He doesn't use food in training -- and it works. Food lures can be great, and I know you wean them away, but if I can get the same results without food that is even better.


It works because of fear of negative reinforcement, no? The rewards these dogs get is not getting shocked by the shock collar or having their necks pinched by prong collars.



> He uses body language for some cues. For instance, I watched a video on "waiting for food". It was great -- I am used to putting my dogs in a "sit" and then a "wait" verbal cue. He uses body language and the food to lure them naturally into a sit position, and then doesn't even say wait. They wait until he says "okay". I love that! He also says "out" and repeatedly takes away the food. That is just like "leave it" but it works great. I tried this method with my dogs tonight and it worked amazingly well.


Yeah, he does the 'chaining' commands a lot. It does work. Dogs get it. You could call it 'sit' or 'oompa loompa', the dog just needs to know that means sit + stay.



> He does praise the dogs. He praises with words such as "good boy" as well as with petting. His voice is calm and positive throughout all of the training videos and clips I watched.


His voice is calm and positive, but he is pinching their necks if they are doing something wrong. Praising the dogs does not negate that. 



> For me, I'm able to take bits and pieces of what he does and use them in the ways I see appropriate without using harsh methods.


And that's great. However, I don't think it is OK to ignore the biggest red flag and call his training methods good. His training methods 'work' primarily because of his cruelty. That is the main reason, not his body language, not his gentle voice.

Sorry if this sounds like I am attacking you, I am trying hard to not make it sound like that. And trust me, I do see your point. There is some good stuff in there that people could learn from. However, it is not fair to evaluate his methods by ignoring the foundation of his techniques, i.e. negative reinforcement.


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

eiksaa said:


> Won't that be hard for puppies? Can a puppy really sit in place for four hours?
> 
> 
> I agree. Our trainer recommends this too. Losing your patience is a sign of a negative emotion, one that will only frustrate the dog more.
> ...


I know you are not attacking me.  He doesn't actually use the prong collars and remote collars on all of the dogs. Some of the videos he even specifies he is just using a plain collar (and you can see that). I wouldn't call his foundation negative reinforcement even. I'm not sure what I would call it. And he definitely doesn't put a puppy in a stay command for 4hrs. lol What I mean when I say he works with them 24/7 is that he doesn't just have certain small training sessions. He works periodically throughout the day in real scenarios such as having them lay down while you eat dinner...or sitting and staying while you open the door.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

LJSquishy said:


> I know you are not attacking me.  He doesn't actually use the prong collars and remote collars on all of the dogs. Some of the videos he even specifies he is just using a plain collar (and you can see that). I wouldn't call his foundation negative reinforcement even. I'm not sure what I would call it. And he definitely doesn't put a puppy in a stay command for 4hrs. lol What I mean when I say he works with them 24/7 is that he doesn't just have certain small training sessions. He works periodically throughout the day in real scenarios such as having them lay down while you eat dinner...or sitting and staying while you open the door.


Agreed. I do think training throughout the day is good. But yeah, he does LONG stays. 2-4 hrs. It's on his FB page. 

I do disagree with you on the part about his methods and techniques. Agree to disagree on that. 


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Also, if you remember Emme was wearing a prong collar. That's what leads me to believe that's his default training method. There is no other reason to put that on a 12wk old maltese. 

As for his dogs not wearing a collar all the time, he weans them out. I guess negative reinforcement works just like positive, once the dog is afraid you don't always need a prong collar. They know better than to disobey. 


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Ladysmom said:


> I can't stand to go to his page. Not only do I hate the way he trains dogs, what idiot uses an infant as a training device? He puts his 13 week old baby on the floor with the dogs to "babyproof" them? :exploding:
> 
> Animal abuse AND child abuse IMO!


:yes:Amen

Also,one look at the pic the poster attached in this thread...you can clearly see this malt was shockingly afraid. Shame on those people putting that dog through that and OMG a baby being used as a training aid... DISGUSTING !


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

LJSquishy said:


> He doesn't use food in training -- and it works. Food lures can be great, and I know you wean them away, but if I can get the same results without food that is even better.


Why is it better? I don't get the logic here. What is better about not using food and instead using negative reinforcement? 

I have trained most of my dogs through at least basic obedience classes and several on to competitive obedience with titles. Most of those titles can not be completed with food in your pocket, but you can sure bet I rewarded my dogs with food payments along the way during the learning process and I don't see anything wrong with training with reward based training. But I do see a LOT wrong with training based on negative reinforcement when it is unnecessary especially of the variety that this idiot and his kind use. 

I see nothing in his methods that make him a good trainer. He does have some of the same tricks decent trainers have been using for decades to get results, but that is just copying others success. There is nothing unique in what he does in that way. Even his negative tool kit is really just a copy of what others have done and what has been discredited by experts who study canine learning. This idiot has no formal training, just a lot of arrogance and ignorance. 

The experts favor reward based training. Here is a nice article about rewards that include food, but also play, praise and petting: Food Rewards in Dog Training


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Even police and military dogs are being successfully trained using positive reinforcement and reward rather than prong/choker collars and punishment. If you google "Steve White" and police dog training, you'll see someone who many consider an expert in the field of training those types of dogs. There was an article about him in WDJ a couple of years ago.


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

I would never ever ever send my dog to this man. I want my dog to so what I ask him because he wants to please Mommy and see me smile and praise him and tell him what a good boy he is, and yes maybe he even gets a little treat, but this is so much better than having your dog do what you want because he is afraid of you and afraid he will get hurt if he doesn't do what you want. I would never want my dog to be afraid of me. The fear on that little guys face in the picture is heartbreaking!


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Furbabies mom said:


> I had to back and look at his Facebook. It makes me sad to see that little baby there. All those huge dogs around is frightening! In all his pics you see dogs Everywhere and kids Everywhere!! It looks like a big chaotic mess!


Deborah, I know this is not true ... but, for some reason, you are listed as a friend on this jerk's site ... with a "like" :w00t: Your picture from SM is there, so I just wanted to alert you to this so that if you wish to do so, you can delete it.

For some time after seeing precious and innocent Emme sent off to this abusive, unsafe, and unhealthy environment, I have wondered what we can do. And, I am stunned to see Manolo was sent back there! If one goes back and reads the OP's thread ... one will see that she praised how well trained Manolo was after living with that monster who calls himself a dog trainer. So, why was this poor fluff baby sent back there??

I know we are not supposed to judge ... but, I have seen pictures of the young lady who is supposed to care for and be the parent of Manolo and Emme. (note all of her pictures are no longer on her threads). She is a beautiful looking young lady ... but, it appears as though she has other interests that might not be putting the welfare of the fluff babies first. God forgive me if I am wrong. 

So, what can we do? Victoria Stillwell has already been sent a message by one of our caring members. I can send her one, too. 

I like Sue's idea about the news media. Sue, does your son at CBS have any connections ... or, perhaps know anyone in Rhode Island that can bring this story to the attention of the public? Personally, I would love to see someone track down the vet's who must know about this guy. I'd love to see them on TV explaining how they can support this guy's business.

This guy is deleting FB comments that ask him legitimate questions ... but, questions that he obviously does not like. So, obviously he won't take phone calls or questions on his radio show from people who are concerned about his abusive practices.

I feel sick looking at the pictures of Emme and Manolo. My Snowball cannot handle being in the snow ... he starts shaking. I know some Malt's love the snow. But, for Manolo to be forced to be in that down position in the snow ... and, God ony knows for how long ... is just not right. Look at that poor fluff baby's face. Not only in that picture ... but, with the other huge dogs.

So, instead of just talking about it ... what can we do to make a difference? I am afraid that in the end, someone might complain about this thread behind closed doors, and yet another thread will be closed down, just like the first one. I hope not. My heart goes out to these innocent fluff babies ... I cannot imagine how they are not being mentally and physically abused by this person who calls himself a dog trainer. 

So, I ask again ... what can we do to make a difference for the safety and welfare of these innocent creatures who are obviously being abused?


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## Leila'sMommy (Oct 20, 2012)

That is so cruel! Excuse me for saying this, but that guy needs to have his balls frozen in snow while wearing one of his collars and that wouldn't be enough for what he deserves for torturing these innocent dogs! I had to stop going to his site to check on Emme because it upset me so much. 


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## cynthia's (Dec 30, 2011)

I have one word for this - Disgusting!!!


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Deborah, I know this is not true ... but, for some reason, you are listed as a friend on this jerk's site ... with a "like" :w00t: Your picture from SM is there, so I just wanted to alert you to this so that if you wish to do so, you can delete it.
> 
> I find if posting from a phone or tablet, anything with a touch screen, it's really really easy to unknowingly hit "like". I've done it before.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

pippersmom said:


> Snowball Pie's Mommi said:
> 
> 
> > Deborah, I know this is not true ... but, for some reason, you are listed as a friend on this jerk's site ... with a "like" :w00t: Your picture from SM is there, so I just wanted to alert you to this so that if you wish to do so, you can delete it.
> ...


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

Yikes!!!? I certainly do not Like this at all!! Thanks for letting me know!!!


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

I didn't see me in his friends list, but I saw Celeta(Steve's mom) on it. I know she!s not fond of this guy either! Maybe anyone that checks out his Facebook page is automatically listed as 'Liked" as a friend.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

I am surprised that he didnt block you out!!!! LOL!!! if you had asked any intelligent question to this guy he would block you!!!!!!!!!!


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## StevieB (Feb 2, 2012)

Furbabies mom said:


> I didn't see me in his friends list, but I saw Celeta(Steve's mom) on it. I know she!s not fond of this guy either! Maybe anyone that checks out his Facebook page is automatically listed as 'Liked" as a friend.


No no no, I don't "like" him at all! But I "liked" his page to check on his goings on with these babies. On the down low since it sounds like if we comment we get banned! It's just beyond me how someone could send a little maltese to this guy.


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## LoveLucy (Mar 18, 2012)

Ok I admit that I stalk his page now and then. I guess I do it just to piss myself off.  I don't see where he talks about manolo coming back for retraining. Where did you see that? Also I don't think the op wants a real dog. She should get a stuffed dog for a pet.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

It's the caption for the snow pic.









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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

what is more sickening is that he does training for the animal shelter.........................


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

I came back to look at this pic again... it breaks my heart. NO he does not need to get used to basic obedience training on different surfaces such as snow. It's unnecessary and cruel.... and whomever said its better not use treats as a learning method I ask why ??? It makes no sense. Dogs are food driven and there is no harm in giving treats for good behaviour. So is it better for the dog to learn in fear??? This man is psycho. His teaching ways are horrendous !


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## kaeco510 (Sep 28, 2012)

I don't understand the necessity of a small dog needing to practice a down/stay in the snow for any period of time.

I took Sadie for a walk last night (her first time out when there is snow on the ground) and I was beyond worried that she would be too cold with her little paws touching the cold ground. I would NEVER make her sit or lay down on the ground in these temps, never mind do that in the snow!!! The poor thing would turn into a pupsicle! 

This makes me sick


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

I cannot fathom the idea either............. so depressing :-(


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## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

That poor dog is not even in a full coat. Im guessing the hair at his belly must be short, since in the rest of the body it is, hence he's not getting much protection from the hair. He's even putring his little legs in a certain position to cover his belly. That guy is nuts! And I agree with most of you, to me it is abuse. That guy should be put to do the lay down command naked and barefeet on the snow... See if he will like that...


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## simplymars9 (Nov 27, 2012)

This makes me sick. Zoe doesn't even like walking on cold tile, I can't imagine what the poor baby must be going through with snow!

Something has to be done about him and his "training" methods.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

I can't figure out WHY a person gets a Maltese and ships them off to this place. hysteric:2 times OMG) I pray they find (new) loving homes where they are not subjected to fear--because they will ever meet the 'owners' expectations. I can't imagine how afraid the male is that got sent back. Poor babies. I hope someone intervenes, because this is just sickening. How can the owner look into their big brown eyes and see how sweet these little souls are and still do this to them. :crying:

YES, IMO - this IS abuse.


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