# Pet Shops & Puppy Mills



## kit001 (Jul 6, 2003)

This is a really touchy subject, but would a few opinions on this. I TRIED to post this at "www.malteseonly", but it seems even though they say you are allowed to voice your opinion, if your opinion goes against their opinion, you can forget about hearing what others have to say cuz it just isnt' gonna happen, no posting will happen. Okay, on with it....

I know all the things they say about you shouldn't buy puppied from pet shops because they come from puppy mills and because these mills are making money of these poor little animals, are usually in poor health, etc... BUT I have to ask this, what about the poor pups who are ALREADY in the pet shops? 

People may not agree with me, but to start with, I have two dogs, one I got from the SPCA, a mix, Springer Spaniel & Beagle, a WONDERFUL dog. The other is Morgan, my malt. I am sorry, but he DID come from a pet shop. I happened to be out with my husband for dinner, we had a long wait, decided to go to the pet shop just to "window shop". I saw him and knew he wasn't some little puppy. I asked the girl in there how old he was and she told me he was SIX MONTHS OLD. They had had him since he was 12 weeks. This means he had spent all of this time in a cage! I couldn't handle it and it ate at me all night, the next morning I went back and I bought him! As far as I am concerned, I RESCUED him too, maybe a very expensive rescue, but I dont' regret getting him out of there and having him now in a loving home where he is spoiled rotten! 

I have heard all of the horror stories about they are usually really sick and have all sorts of problems, but I guess I was the lucky one in a million who got a VERY healthy little puppy. Even if he hadn't been, I think, (I KNOW), I would have still bought him anyway. He is the most wonderful littel guy in the world to me!


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## Luvmypupster (Jul 12, 2003)

*pet shops*

It's a fine line. I know what you are saying and I see and agree with your thoughts and feelings. You did rescue him and you are very lucky. The same goes with the backyard breeder, you can end up with a very sick pup from them as well. I did that years ago when buying a german shep. pup. She was so sick and ended up dying. I was so heartbroken over all that she went thru. Still makes me want to cry. Anyway the truth is that the mills and what those poor dogs endure is so terrible that hopefully one day there will be no more mills and if people continue to buy, they continue to breed and dogs continue to suffer. That brings you full circle to your choice in buying your little one. Somebody has to take them and give them a loving home too and that's just what you have done. It's not just black and white. You did fine and I'm glag your malt is healthy and in a loving home. 
I know what you mean about posting on that "other " maltese site. It's so controlled and there is no reasoning to what will be posted and what is rejected and if he gets tired of you........... your post never make it thru. I have wondered if he even refuses to post messages by people who do make sense and fear that others may agree with them. Does he feel threatened or inferior? He arrogant, rude and hateful and I feel sorry for any friends and family that put up with him. Surely he can't be happy with himself treating people the way he does.


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## joe (Jan 5, 2003)

I have mixed feelings about this also, pet shops encourage puppy mills, people looking for a quick dollar, but what about the ones there, I would prefer to buy one and at least try to give it a good home, it doesnt deserve to die in a cage, however, when you do buy one they will just get another, its a no win situation, hopefully if enough people start questioning pet shops about how, when, where did this pup come from they will get the hint that it isnt right, but i doubt it, I bought Sampson and Maggie from the same "backyard breeder" years apart by chance and I would do it again, no problems whatsoever other than they both have alergies


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## Maxismom (Mar 24, 2004)

Yes i agree with the original posters
regardless of rescue places, puppymills,pet shops
these pups need homes and to condemn them is wrong
its the people that run it that should be condemned not those innocent babies
When i bought my Maximillion ( male Maltese) I was not to up on where you go so i went to a place locally that had a name with Breeder in it so i thought that i was buying from a breeder , well it turns out that they supposedly have breeders who breed for them , the place is off of a major road and its in a house like so i really did think they were the breeders in any event i paid alot for Maxi they told me he is a pedigree, and gave me his papers and that the reason he was so much money was because he comes from champion lines and won't get more than 6lbs well 
at almost 7 months april 16th he is 9lbs and the most wonderful baby and he is my baby and i wouldnt car if he was 200lbs , i adore him and yes was it unethical the way they sold him yes but would i ever give him back 
NO WAY.........He does have all his black points and a magnificent face with the cutest personality , so i mean woudl i buy from them again 
NO to many pups come out of there with kennel cough and parasites like my maxi did the first week i had him, we were at the vet for weeks but i gave Maxi alot of love and care and thank god he is fine


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## joe (Jan 5, 2003)

its a tough call, i am not a breeder so my intrest isnt in my bottom line, its in the love of dogs, "saving" them encourages another "sale", ignoring them may lead to something worse, its a sad vicious cycle


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## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

Well I have a strong and definite opinion on this subject. Grit your teeth and DO NOT BUY THAT PUPPY! When you "rescue" a puppy by purchasing it from a pet store or puppy mill directly, you are condemning many more dogs to a life of horror and misery: The parents, the siblings who may have been retained for further puppy mill breeding, etc.

So, saving one dooms many. Leaving the one in the store, saves many who would take its place.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2004)

I have to agree with Pico's Parent. I know that it is very difficult to see that cute little puppy in the pet store, but you must not buy it! I went into a pet store last December to see a maltese puppy - wanted to compare to a yorkie. I felt so bad for those puppies. All of the puppies looked so stressed out and three to a little cage. I am so glad I did not buy a puppy because even though I would have been saving one another one would have just replaced that one. And who knows what kind of problems I would have had. I am soooo glad that your puppy is wonderful and I hope he has a wonderful life with you.


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## docnascar (Feb 24, 2004)

Don't you guys remember Hollybelle?

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/0...lement_ID=47355
http://tennessean.com/local/archives/04/03...ent_ID=48099948
http://www.tennessean.com/williamsonam/arc.../48589849.shtml
http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/0.../46042925.shtml


Places like that just feed on people that will buy a dog from anywhere. Hundreds of innocent dogs suffer because of it. Before I researched about Maltese I would have bought a dog from a pet shop. But never now.


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## TikisMom (Jul 22, 2003)

Agreed!

Judi


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## poopookiki (Mar 4, 2004)

I agree. Bite the bullet and wait for a reputable breeder. Chronic illness and constant Vet visits and the failed promise that your newly purchased malt will be small (who end up being huge) are giant signs that you are dealing with a pupmiller, I would run, not walk away from that breeder. Alot of them are breeding countless dogs from a small male malt and a bichon or poodle bitch, then you get the curly hair and big size. Which is fine if that is what they are telling you you will get, so if they lie to you about that what other lies are they telling you. And right on about Hollybelle. She herself went on and on in a maltese magazine article about how much love and care malts need and how she raises hers inside, and look how she abused those poor babies. We can't save the world but we can sure do our part amen!!







P.S. Anyone here from Louisiana?


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## Maltymad (Aug 21, 2003)

Any breeder that lets their puppy go to a pet shop just does not care about their pups, they are only interested in the money.

Every puppy that is bought in a pet shop will be replaced by two to keep up with demand. Also resulting in the Maltese mother being bred again and again to keep up with demand.

I do agree that a pet shop is no place for a beautiful Maltese puppy, they need and thrive on love and cuddles and should have a loving home BUT ! ! ! there will be another two in it's place when you purchase that one.


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## sweetpea (Apr 10, 2004)

how would you know who is a puppy mill?i bought my puppies registered from back in iowa they were sent by airplane i live in california. they are wonderful healthy and could not be shipped til they were over 16 weeks with shot records and well groomed.i read the article on tennessee,what a heartbreaker,i keep hearing so much on puppymills,i would like to know how to know what is a kennel breeder and puppymill thanks becky sweetpeas mom


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## TikisMom (Jul 22, 2003)

Sweetpea,

You can do a google search on "puppy mills" for lots of information:

Prisoners of Greed Org.

The US Humane Society

Stop Puppy Mills Org

Painful to read, sadly true.

Judi


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## Maxismom (Mar 24, 2004)

Listen i agree they should stop these puppymills but as Kit wrote someone has to take care of these babies and to me they are rescues just like if you got a pup from the rescue places
these pups are not asking to be born and if they are lucky enough to get one of us as there family god bless is what i say


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## kit001 (Jul 6, 2003)

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with the remark about saving one from a pet store will doom many more...those puppies in the store are doomed if they are not gotten out and the mills are still gonna run to sell privately to the unknowing and to other store chains. Yes, it is a fine line, but you have to have a heart too. It isn't a question of forgetting Hollybelles or any other puppy mill. What needs to happen is very simple some type of law or restrictions or staute on breedng, the problem is the BREEDERS and brokers and I refuse to condem a poor innocent puppy because of some theory of "if you buy a puppy from a store you condem others" If a puppy originally comes form a puppy mill he is automatically condemned no matter what. This puppy I RESCUED was not a LITTLE puppy..he was SIX MONTHS of age. Would any of us like to be spending our lives in a cage for that length of time? I am not trying to say one thought is more right than the other, but I cannot change how I feel or what I would do or have done. I feel good about myself for taking him out of there, just as good as I did the day I got my other dog from the SPCA.


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## Sanvean (May 17, 2004)

I agree with those who said "don't buy." Buying one pup sends a message up the chain that there's a demand for Maltese, and somewhere, another bitch will be bred and another puppy will enter a world of greed and misery.

The suggestion on nopuppymills.com is to find out the wholesale price of a Maltese (I think it's usually about $200 to $350) and wait till the puppy's price falls to that. Then, make an offer on the pup. That way, the pet store isn't getting any profit from the sale, and the puppy is rescued.

Pet stores THRIVE on people feeling sorry for the puppies. They don't care if you buy them to rescue them; they only care if you buy them. And as long as we buy them for more than they paid for them, they're making money.


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## kit001 (Jul 6, 2003)

I "rescued" mine from a Pet Store and that was pretty much what I did, his price fell and I grabbed him. Keep in mind that most Puppy Mills are using BROKERS too, so there is another cut into the pie. The Mill wants their money, the Brokers wants his slice and the Pet Store wants their peice of the action too. I didn't exactly pay quite that low a price for Morgan, but when these guys got done, I dont' think there was much to go around as he was six months old and the Pet Store had all his initial investments in the pup plus all his medical. He had already had all his shots except his lyme. So for $600.00 dollars, he was saved from being put to sleep and went to a home where he is happy and loved and no one saw too much profit except for Morgan and I. And the profit we saw was NOT monitary!


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## Sanvean (May 17, 2004)

I'm so glad that it worked out for you guys


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## doctorcathy (May 17, 2004)

there was a petstore near where i lived in san diego. he told me that they would buy the dogs for like $75 each and then sell them for around $250. i was like "thats a rip off" and he was like "im not stopping you from looking at the newspapers". I went there a few times (just because it was close to home and i really needed something) but i have decided that I'm not going to buy from a pet shop that sells dogs or cats.


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## Sanvean (May 17, 2004)

I won't buy anything at stores that sell dogs or cats, either. I do most of my shopping at Pet Supplies Plus.

As for price increases...somebody on No Puppy Mills wrote:



> There's a really nasty pug/chihuahua breeder here in MN (I should know, I got one of her puppies), and some of her chihuahua pups were listed on divapup. The pups are $250-$400 on her page.... but the SAME puppies (even used the same photos) were $1500-$4000 on divapup![/B]


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

:lol:


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## kit001 (Jul 6, 2003)

Nicole, yes, he had some, but it didn't take him long to get over them as I have another dog, a much larger one who kinda "showed him the ropes". If Buddy hadn't been in the house, I dont' think Morgan would have gone so far, so fast. He was skiddish about everything. I won't ever forget the day I carried him out of the store. I was clawed to death. They claimed they walkd him, but I honestly dont' think that if they did, they took him actually outside. He was petrified. He still has one issue I can't seem to break him of, wish I could, but it's okay, he is much better than when we first got him. He refuses to sleep right next to me even if it is for a nap. He will crawl up on the bed but wont' go any higher than the foot of the bed if anyone is lying down on it. He was so used to sleeping in that wire cage all alone. Now that I have Bailey, our little Yorkie, he gets a little jealous because Bailey will crawl right up to me and lay his head right on my arm and go to sleep. So now Morgan will crawl up next to my side, but once he is ready to sleep he can't be near anyone, he has to be on his own. Other than that, he is so well adjusted he thinks he runs the house and that he is the king of the other dogs! lol


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)




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## Sanvean (May 17, 2004)

I would switch vets, if possible. My vet used to work with a vet who did that, and she said she just HATED it.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kit001_@Apr 25 2004, 04:01 PM
> *If a puppy originally comes form a puppy mill he is automatically condemned no matter what. This puppy I RESCUED was not a LITTLE puppy..he was SIX MONTHS of age. Would any of us like to be spending our lives in a cage for that length of time? I am not trying to say one thought is more right than the other, but I cannot change how I feel or what I would do or have done. I feel good about myself for taking him out of there, just as good as I did the day I got my other dog from the SPCA.*


 I agree. I probably would have done the same thing. I don't go in pet stores anymore that sell puppies. Makes me too sad....especially after hearing about Hollybelle. 

My parents bought my sister a Dalmation pup from a puppystore a long time ago. She was a good dog. I remember she had some allergies to graass, which was aggravating being an outside dog. But she had a great temperament and was a beautiful dally. I guess we got lucky. She failed puppy kindergarten if I remember right, she was too hyper when they took her..ha ha. But she was a great dog for us. I was allergic to her, so I did not have a whole lot to do with her. She was my sister's anyway. I had a cat. Amazingly, and luckily I have had no allergy problems with my Maltese. I researched much before I bought him. So far so good. 

Anyway, my point is that I have a soft heart too, and if I had seen one 6 months old, that they had in a shop that long, I probably would have taken him home too. His chances were getting slimmer as the days went by of finding a good home. Then what happens? I hate to even contemplate it too long.


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## _Carissa_ (Jul 27, 2004)

My concern was always for the poor pups already in the pet shops. I wondered why everyone got so mad if you bought one from a pet store, I mean, you are rescuing the pup. I would think that would be the best thing ever. Congrats on your pup! I'm glad he is well. Meesta sends his kisses too!


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## Sanvean (May 17, 2004)

You're rescuing THAT pup, sure. But what about his parents? Every pup you buy just lines pockets of these greedy people and tells them, "Oh, a Maltese sold! Guess we need to breed another litter!" And somewhere else, some other poor pup is born who going to be consigned to that same fate.


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## _Carissa_ (Jul 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sanvean_@Jul 29 2004, 07:51 PM
> *You're rescuing THAT pup, sure. But what about his parents? Every pup you buy just lines pockets of these greedy people and tells them, "Oh, a Maltese sold! Guess we need to breed another litter!" And somewhere else, some other poor pup is born who going to be consigned to that same fate.*


 Good point! If people could hold off on buying then maybe this would stop! It isn't right...and we all agree on that!


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## kit001 (Jul 6, 2003)

You've missed my point. If you dont' rescue the pup, do you REALLY think that they are going to carry any less of an attitude? They will put the pup down, or in others words, KILL HIM because he is now costing the store for his upkeep. They will then order ANOTHER pup...a younger one to take his place. It has nothing to do with whether you rescue a pup or not from a pet store in my opinion. The laws need to be changed on breeders and their practices...they are too laxed with them. Would the everyday person treat a child in the same manner as these dogs are? You can bet that if someone saw you just LOOK at a child in the wrong way, social services woudl step in and take you on, so why aren't these breeders held accountable for their actions? (They are no less of a living being and deserve just as much)

My other point is, I can get a dog from the SPCA and peopel see it as a good thing, because I saved his life, but if I buy a pup from a pet store I am only making the situation worse? Sorry, I totally disagree. It is not the buyers who should be scolded or looked down on, go to the SOURCE, the BREEDER and hold THEM acountable for their actions.

Sorry if I sound so harsh, but I feel really strong about this. The night I saw Morgan in that pet store I cried for him because I knew what the next step was for him, he had very little time left, he ws 6 months old and they weren't gaining any profit at this point for the sale of him, all they wanted was to recoupe the monies they had put into him.. (When I got him he only needed one shot and to ne neutered). I am not heartless and I will NEVER regret getting him out of there. He has become such a part of me, that fact in itself is reason enough. He is a living being and no matter where he came from, I refuse to let anyone tell me I did something wrong. I am proud of what I did, he wasn't a cheap rescue for me, but he was worth every cent I spent on him and I would do it all over again if I had to with no regrets


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## Sanvean (May 17, 2004)

These pups are very rarely put down. They are usually sold very cheaply or sent back to the breeder. Though, frankly, being put down would be better than the latter.

These stores COUNT on people feeling sorry for the pups. That's how they make their money.

If you really want to give hundreds of dollars to these people, that's fine, but I don't think you're going to make many converts here. Btw, you may want to check out www.nopuppymills.com. They can tell you exactly which mill your puppy came from and give you the info from their inspections.


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## _Carissa_ (Jul 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kit001_@Jul 30 2004, 12:07 AM
> *You've missed my point. If you dont' rescue the pup, do you REALLY think that they are going to carry any less of an attitude? They will put the pup down, or in others words, KILL HIM because he is now costing the store for his upkeep. They will then order ANOTHER pup...a younger one to take his place. It has nothing to do with whether you rescue a pup or not from a pet store in my opinion. The laws need to be changed on breeders and their practices...they are too laxed with them. Would the everyday person treat a child in the same manner as these dogs are? You can bet that if someone saw you just LOOK at a child in the wrong way, social services woudl step in and take you on, so why aren't these breeders held accountable for their actions? (They are no less of a living being and deserve just as much)
> 
> My other point is, I can get a dog from the SPCA and peopel see it as a good thing, because I saved his life, but if I buy a pup from a pet store I am only making the situation worse? Sorry, I totally disagree. It is not the buyers who should be scolded or looked down on, go to the SOURCE, the BREEDER and hold THEM acountable for their actions.
> ...


 Oh, I get it now.


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## Maxismom (Mar 24, 2004)

When i bought Maxi i was not to swift on the whole puppymill/breeder/pet store thing...I went to a place that had the name breeder in it and automatically thought that they bred there own ...I got Maxi at 10 weeks the guy there told me that he has people breeding for him...Again i was not up on everything like i am now...As i stated before i fell immediately in love with maxi and gave the guy 1700 and brought home my baby
the first few days maxi was very sick he had coccida and upper respitory i brought him right to the vet and thank god i did...he could have died in any event alot of people have purchaed from this guy and i am finding out that he is a real piece of work, some one on my train in the morning told me that he and his wife just bought a 10 week old maltese from there and when they got him home he was sick just like maxi they are filing a complaint against this creep because apparently he has an illegal vet working in his basement and they shoot these babies with steroids so they look good and i guess when they come off of it thats when they get sick
i am so happy i have maxi and i was able to give him a wonderful life so far
so if i had to do it again i would buy from a petstore so i can save another baby from these creepy people...If there arent going to be shut down than atleast knowing what i know now and even though i paid alot for maxi i consider that i rescued him so thats how i feel about it
it will never go away so its up to us to continue saving these babies
either from rescue places or pet stores


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## kit001 (Jul 6, 2003)

Sanvean, not trying to make converts out of anyone. And I know which mill my pup came from. And thirdly, I dunno about your area, but around here, they are put down. I made calls to local vets and two of them were vets that deal with the now-closed-down pet store in my local area. One of the vets quit dealing with one particular pet store just because of this practice. 

After I purchased Morgan, I was looked down on by alot of people who I had spoken with when they wanted to know where I got my puppy from and told them. This is where I started learning about puppy mills & such. It was at that point that i started calling around to local vets, reading up on the net about it, going to the library and finding the little available on it, etc....so I am not ignorant to the situation and just giving my money blindly as I did. But I still dont' regret it. 

So my two points being that seem to have gone to the side again is I would do it again in a heartbeat if it means saving the life if I can afford it AND go to the root of the problem the BREEDERS and hold them accountable, really accountable, not the person who is helping the little animal out.


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## TikisMom (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kit001_@Jul 30 2004, 08:47 PM
> *---snip---
> go to the root of the problem the BREEDERS and hold them accountable, really accountable, not the person who is helping the little animal out.
> ---snip---
> I can get a dog from the SPCA and peopel see it as a good thing, because I saved his life, but if I buy a pup from a pet store I am only making the situation worse? Sorry, I totally disagree. It is not the buyers who should be scolded or looked down on, go to the SOURCE, the BREEDER and hold THEM acountable for their actions.*


I usually stay out of such controversial topics, but I feel strongly about this. I agree wholeheartedly with Kitt on this subject and I would have done the same thing. Saving the pup would be first and foremost on my mind and I support her with her decision to bring her little one home and give him a wonderful life.

Much, much more needs to be done to stop those responsible for the mistreatment of the breeding animals! These people are cruel and should be treated with the same respect they give to the animals the "own". 

Each of us has our own opinion on this subject, there is lots of information out there for each of us to take in, we need to do what we feel is the right thing to do.

Judi


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## Sanvean (May 17, 2004)

Unfortunately, there isn't a lot we can do to stop these breeders at this point. What they are doing is totally legal, and they are a rather large, powerful lobbying force, especially in the Midwestern states, like Missouri, where there are a lot of mills. Even if they are treating the animals badly, the USDA doesn't have a lot of inspectors, and very little seems to happen to mills that get bad inspections anyway.

IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop the DEMAND for these puppies. That will shut the mills down a lot faster than any legislation -- because no legislation is going to be passed prohibiting the mass breeding of animals anytime soon.


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## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

I am happy to say Texas is one of the enlighted states that has good anti-cruelty enforcement. If you watch "Animal Planet" Animal Cops-Houston, you'll see what I mean. It makes the Hollybelle mess look like a Chinese Fire Drill. Which it is.

We recently had a puppymill near Dallas raided, the dogs confiscated and adopted out in a matter of weeks! But, like most criminal enterprises, people like that will just take their losses as part of doing business and start up somewhere else. They figure the profit until they get caught outweighs the loss when they do.

So even with this excellent inforcement, the real prevention is to not buy from pet stores, newspaper ads or internet ads until you KNOW where that puppy originated. Which can be a tough nut to crack.


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