# Show Breeders are Responsible??



## bluebuzz81 (Jul 29, 2008)

I have purchased 2 dogs from 2 different show breeders 2 years ago.

They are both mentioned many times in this forum and I will not mention their names, but people keep talking about show breeders being better etc. I have paid significant amount of money to save myself from heartache of having my loved dog sick and also to keep myself from having to pay ridiculous vet bills, but now I am stuck with both. 

1 of my dog I have purchased from a very recognized show breeder, she has a severe case of luxating patella. When I received her, ofcourse she came with a health guarentee and also an examination from the breeder's vet stating she is healthy. I didn't bother taking her for an examination when I received her because I trusted that their vet would be honest. After about a year, when I took her for some other issues, I have found that she had a severe case of luxating patella, when I called to ask for the breeder to pay for the cost of surgery, they told me to ship the dog back for a full refund instead. Ridiculousness. Her knees are so bad that I am so doubtful of her not having that as a puppy. 

My boy dog whom I have also purchased from a very recognized breeder and is apparently came out of a dad who won 1st or 2nd prize in the United States, I have just recently spent 4000 dollars trying to find his issue, now the vet is asking me to pay another 2500 dollars to check on some hereditary brain issue he may have. 

I am sick of seeing these show breeders preaching about how we need to purchase dogs from them and how responsible they are and they are striving to improve the quality of their dogs when really they are out there to breed and make money off of the dogs just like the puppy mill breeders.

Only thing I see different is that they charge a lot more for the dogs so they are able to care slightly better than the puppy mill people.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

bluebuzz81 said:


> I have purchased 2 dogs from 2 different show breeders 2 years ago.
> 
> They are both mentioned many times in this forum and I will not mention their names, but people keep talking about show breeders being better etc. I have paid significant amount of money to save myself from heartache of having my loved dog sick and also to keep myself from having to pay ridiculous vet bills, but now I am stuck with both.
> 
> ...


 
Wow! I can certainly feel your frustration. I am so sorry for the issues you are dealing with. It does sound like your little ones are facing some serious difficulties. Will say some prayers for these precious babies. rayer:

I think there is a lot of generalization going on in your post though. You seem to have been generalizing when you bought your dogs that show dogs = ethical/responsible breeders and show breeders = healthy dogs. Now that you see those things are not true, you seem to be going to the other extreme and generalizing to say that all show breeders are = only slightly better than puppy mills. :blink:

The fact is that all of this is far too black and white. Some show breeders are extremely ethical and honest and the fact is that showing is ONE sign of dedication to breeding responsibly. 

I do not know if there was any way for your breeder to know of the problem with your dogs knees if you acquired the dog as a puppy. Luxating pattellas are so common in the breed that I doubt any Maltese breeder who has been around for very long can claim to have not encountered them. Fortunately, in most cases they do not require surgery. Clearly, your dog has a level of severity that is a-typical. I do not know how old your dog with the LP was when you got her, but most cases of LP are not diagnosed in young puppies. I will say though that most breeders include in their health guarantee a window for you to have an evaluation done at your own vet. EVERYONE should take advantage of that, wether you trust the breeder or not. Ethical breeders want to know they have placed healthy puppies and if something was missed by their own vet, they want you and your vet to find it as soon as possible. 

As for your boy's condition, it sounds as though it has not yet been determined what is wrong with him. He MAY have a genetic brain condition. But from what you describe your vet has not been able to figure out what that condition is yet, assuming that your breeder did not see a similar condition in the parents or the lines they breed, there is no way a breeder could see what your veterinarians have not been able to yet determine. 

What matters in an ethical and responsible breeder is that they take responsibility for their dogs. They should be interested in learning as much as they can from you about what health issues you are encountering in your dogs. If genetic problems arise they take action to prevent other dogs from facing those consequences. They also should stand by their contract. 

But responsible and ethical buyers should also read and understand that contract and understand what it can and does cover. They should take their puppy to be evaluated by a vet as soon as they come home. They should ask questions about the health history of the dogs in their pedigrees. They should report back to the breeder any health issues that arise to help ensure that the breeder is given the chance to take action.


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

I am very sorry to hear of your dog's issues. My heart breaks for you. I hope that you get some clear answers on your little boys problems and that you make his breeder aware of it. Please keep us posted and let us know how everything works out for you.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

I am so sorry for your heartache and can understand your heavy heart and confusion. Bless your babies.

Here's the thing, at least to me, yes, I defenitely would want a pup from an ethical show breeder (or rescue), but we are talking about show breeders. As I wish my pup to be bred to the standard. Now for me, and just my personal advice to all, just becuase a name is so popular, or 85 people got a pup from this breeder or that breeder, is not enough to know or be comfortable, in feeling you are going in the right direction.

I am not influenced in any which way, by where someone got their babies from, I love them all. 

But please, don't let you heartache, and I am sure shock, be a blanket that all show breeders have to wear. In my opinion, there are INCREDIBLE ethical show breeders out there, but homework has to be done. I completely understand how you would think you were going the right way, bless you, honestly, I am NOT faulting you at all.
Honest.

Just like in any group, there are those, who may hurt the groups reputation, but it shouldn't be worn, by all in that group. I hope that makes sense.

Believe me, my heart is with you, and you have shared a valuable experience. VALUABLE and one for all to take notice.

In my heart, I just know there are ethical, very ethical show breeders, but that is just based, on what I read from them, their words, not from those who may have a pup from them. Of course, meeting the breeders would be the next step.

I am so saddened by your experience, I understand, but please know, the whole group, should not have to wear that exeprience. 

But I do understand and once again, a valuable lesson for all.

But if I didn't get another from a rescue, yup, I would want a pup or retiree, from a ethical show breeder, and they are out there. They shouldn't have to carry the "sins" of others. But my heart does understand where you are coming from.

Bless you and so sorry for your experience.

In any group, you will have differences.

I just wanted to add one more thought, when I say breed to standard, that also means health.

And love you to dear Allie


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

allheart said:


> I am so sorry for your heartache and can understand your heavy heart and confusion. Bless your babies.
> 
> Here's the thing, at least to me, yes, I defenitely would want a pup from an ethical show breeder (or rescue), but we are talking about show breeders. As I wish my pup to be bred to the standard. Now for me, and just my personal advice to all, just becuase a name is so popular, or 85 people got a pup from this breeder or that breeder, is not enough to know or be comfortable, in feeling you are going in the right direction.
> 
> ...


Now, that's an amazing person - a true animal lover. A kind soul. G-d bless you Christine!

If only the world could have more people like you - "oh what a world it would be . . ."

To the OP - I am sorry, so very sorry - to hear of your problems.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear of all your problems.  I hope the issues get sorted and your breeder helps you with this. I think buying from a show breeder is a bit like an insurance, because with genetic issues they will take the dog back.........but then again who would send a dog they love back? Quite the conundrum. Hopefully the breeder will help with the costs associated. I think a good breeder would.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Carina the problem is that in this forum some people make prospective dog buyers *believe* that they can only get a healthy dog from a show breeder. That they may pay more for it but save later on on vet bills. No wonder if this does not happen that people are mad. I would be upset too. All we hear here is that show breeders are the only reputable ones because they breed to standard. Most people who ONLY want a pet don't care about the standard, what they want is a healthy dog. Show breeders breed for the look and the more we hear don't care about health. It should be stressed that there is no garanty of the health of a dog even from a show breeder. Of course then, people will start thinking and ask themselves why they should pay a show dog price for a pet. I can understand those high prices for a show dog that you will use to show but not for a pet.


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## Maltbabe (Oct 10, 2010)

Ditto!!! Janine


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

MalteseJane said:


> Show breeders breed for the look and the more we hear don't care about health.


 
OUCH! Health first, structure next, then look. My heads could use some improving but I've got mostly good liver values and great knees. And a couple of champions. How's that for honesty? :thumbsup:

And I've got 2 rescues, 12 and 13 yrs. old. Andy is as healthy as a horse (and about the size, too, but not overweight). Grace is blind now, she has glaucoma, but she bumps into stuff way less than I do.

I understand your point, Janine, but let's not paint with that really broad brush.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I really don't think show breeders intended to create a genetic mess with their years of inbreeding and closed breed registries, but that's exactly what has been done. We now know that show dogs are at a very high risk of genetic diseases/disorders because of population bottlenecks due to inbreeding, linebreeding, overuse of popular sires, etc. 

It is not fair to say you're going to get a healthier dog from a show breeder, so it really bothers me also when members of this forum give the impression these puppies are going to be healthier. We all know that puppymill puppies aren't a good option, so let's not go there.

__________________ 

Read "A New Direction for Kennel Club Regulations and Breed Standards" in the Canadian Veterinary Journal. This report starts out like this:

_More than 500 genetic defects exist in today’s purebred dogs (__1__). Inherited diseases such as hip dysplasia, brachycephalic airway syndrome, cardiomyopathies, endocrine dysfunctions, blood disorders, and hundreds more, affect the quality of life and longevity of these dogs. Over 400 breeds currently exist, but they are artificial constructs of human fancy, instead of the evolutionary outcome of natural selection (__2__,__3__). The wide array of genetic diseases found in purebred dogs reflects their unnatural development, by kennel club associations and breeders who are largely responsible for this welfare predicament (__2__,__4__–__6__)._


A new direction for kennel club regulations and breed standards


___________________


Read Bateson's "Independent Inquiry into Dog Breeding". This is a report which was done after "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" aired in the UK. You don't have to get past page three to find info. such as the following:


_The genetics of inbreeding are reviewed. Animals that are inbred are less likely than optimally outbred animals to survive and less likely to reproduce. Inbreeding can result in reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability, developmental disruption, lower birth rate, higher infant mortality, shorter life span, reduction of immune system function, and increased frequency of genetic disorders._



http://breedinginquiry.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/final-dog-inquiry-120110.pdf


__________________




Read "The Downside of Inbreeding - It's Time for a New Approach" which includes the following two paragraphs:

_In recent years, purebred dogs have experienced increasing problems with hereditary diseases and defects. The causes are complex, including genetic load, the presence of lethal equivalents in all individuals, genetic bottlenecks, closed gene pools, gene pool fragmentation, and genetic drift, but all are attributable to inbreeding._

_Thanks to closed registries, breeds form exclusive gene pools. All gene pools, no matter how large or diverse, will have a genetic load - the difference between the fittest possible genotype and the average fitness of the population. "Fitness" is the individual's over-all health, vigor and ability. It may or may not directly relate to traits breeders select for. (The English Bulldog, for instance, has an "ideal" physical form which virtually precludes females from being able to naturally whelp their young.) The greater the genetic load, the more genetic difficulties members of a breed are likely to suffer. In a closed gene pool, the situation may remain stable or deteriorate. It cannot get better._

Downside to Inbreeding - World Wide Swedish Vallhund Alliance


_______________


Watch "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" online.

_______________

I've printed a stack of research papers on canine genetics that's two inches thick. They all say basically the same thing.

It is my understanding that even some dog insurance companies are now saying that mixed breeds live longer than purebreds.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I am sorry for your troubles. 

I bought a my Malt from an ethical show breeder because I wanted to be sure that I had a purebred Maltese. Not for snob appeal, but because I studied the breed and wanted one that fit the breed standard and general temperament. I also wanted a puppy that would be properly socialized before it came to me. 

Yes, I also wanted a puppy that was healthy, but honestly, after being on this forum for a while before I got Nikki, and studying health problems in dogs on my own, I realized that there was no way to predict perfect health. 

Unfortunately, there are no guarantees that when you bring a dog into your home - no matter where you get it from_, _or how much you pay for it_,_ that it will be free of health problems. That is a sad fact. I do believe that your chances are better with an ethical show breeder who is very careful, but still, the simple fact is that there are no guarantees.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

A guarantee isn't for the purpose of stating no problems but rather if there are the breeder will help or take back the dog. Because breeders (show) feel they are breeding as healthy a dog as they can they can do this.
Sometimes there are problems that manifest, but hopefully this isn't the norm for a breeder. 
Luxating patellas is so prevalent in toy dogs now that no breeder that I know of covers that. One of the problems is it usually cannot be diagnosed in young pups. By the time it shows up the pup is ingrained in the family and the owner(s) do not want to part with him/her. The only way around it is to buy an older dog or retiree.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Not all show breeders are ethical breeders. I know plenty of Yorkie show breeders that I would NEVER buy a dog from. Showing/breeding for show is *ONE* requirement for a breeder I buy from...it's a starting point for me in my search. I want a breeder who attempts to breed excellent examples of the breed in conformation, temperment AND health. 

Unfortunately, there is no DNA test right now that will reveal whether or not a dog will pass on things like liver shunt, heart issues, etc. Breeders have to rely on the tests they do have and the health history of the dogs in their lines. A good breeder does all they can to make sure they produce healthy puppies. However, breeders aren't God and even the best breeders can have a health issue arise. What proves to me if they are ethical or not is how they handle it...and I'm sure we each have our own opinions on how these situations should be handled. If they continue to knowingly breed health issues, then they are not an ethical breeder in my opinion... Yes, there are show breeders that will continue to breed unhealthy dogs but just because they show doesn't automatically make them ethical. 

I personally do not agree with health guarantees making you return the dog for a replacement. That is a huge loophole because the breeder knows that almost no one is going to return a dog they've fallen in love with and therefor the breeder won't have to take any responsibility. This kind of guarantee just isn't much of a guarantee in my opinion. However, there are breeders that have guarantees written this way but will let the owner keep their dog and make amends. 

The Yorkie breeder I plan to buy from in the future has a 5 year health guarantee and does NOT have this loophole written in her guarantee. In the event of a life threatening hereditary issue, the breeder will give a replacement puppy (and the owner keeps the original dog) or the breeder will refund the price of the sick dog. Of course the breeder is always willing to take back the dog, but the owner has the option of keeping it. She is confident in the health of her dogs...however, if a health issue did happen, I know she'd do what she could to make it right. That's an ethical breeder


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I am sorry for your troubles.
> 
> I bought a my Malt from an ethical show breeder because I wanted to be sure that I had a purebred Maltese. Not for snob appeal, but because I studied the breed and wanted one that fit the breed standard and general temperament. I also wanted a puppy that would be properly socialized before it came to me.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

MalteseJane said:


> Carina the problem is that in this forum some people make prospective dog buyers *believe* that they can only get a healthy dog from a show breeder. That they may pay more for it but save later on on vet bills. No wonder if this does not happen that people are mad. I would be upset too. All we hear here is that show breeders are the only reputable ones because they breed to standard. Most people who ONLY want a pet don't care about the standard, what they want is a healthy dog. Show breeders breed for the look and the more we hear don't care about health. It should be stressed that there is no garanty of the health of a dog even from a show breeder. Of course then, people will start thinking and ask themselves why they should pay a show dog price for a pet. I can understand those high prices for a show dog that you will use to show but not for a pet.


Janine,

I agree with a lot of what you have to say here. This forum tends to oversimplify the issue sometimes. In a quest to help people understand the problems in buying from puppymills and BYBs, it has been overstated that show breeders = ethical breeders = healthy dogs. It is way too frequently overstated that money spent now will save you money later. I have myself tried to temper this many times. I have specifically argued that the money/health point tends to make people unreasonably afraid of rescue dogs. I have asked people to look beyond the basics, beyond the cute photos of puppies and beyond the "reputation" of any breeder to look closer at the ethics. So on all of this we can agree. 

However, on some other points I have to disagree. Like I said to the OP, it is overgeneralizing in the extreme to suggest that show breeders only care about the looks and not the health. That MAY be true of some, but it is FAR too broad a statement. 

Most of the show breeders I know place health and temperament as high priorities. They want to produce healthy, sound and loving Maltese. Besides the fact that most of these show breeders got involved in this "hobby" because they LOVE their dogs and this breed just like we do here on this forum, the dogs they sell reflect on them for years to come, which is very much unlike the puppy mill breeders who do not worry about the dogs after they go off to the stores or the brokers. 

I would also disagree that most people do not care about the standard. It is true that most people do not read or understand the standard. But in fact when they call up and ask for a dog and when they buy a Maltese, they do usually hope it looks like a Maltese. They want it to be the size of a Maltese. They want it to have the silk coat of a Maltese. They want it to have the black pigment of a Maltese. It is my hope that they have their priorities in order and put health and temperament above a perfect bite, or a perfect tailset. Not all puppy buyers actually do. Most breeders will be more concerned about health and temperament than they are about the perfect bite or perfect tailset as well. But breeders are just like us. A few are just like those puppy buyers who do not always have their priorities in order. 

It frustrates me when people try to save money by going to breeders who do not show. It is a false economy because show breeders do have an investment in their lines and their dogs. It is not a guarantee of good health, but it is a price based on the investment they have put into their dogs. 

To me it comes down to the goals of a breeder. Mills and BYBs almost always see the dogs in terms of dollar signs or a chance to have "fun" with puppies. The ethical show breeders get involved in the sport because they love the breed and they care about the continuity and health for generations to come. 




myfairlacy said:


> Not all show breeders are ethical breeders. I know plenty of Yorkie show breeders that I would NEVER buy a dog from. Showing/breeding for show is *ONE* requirement for a breeder I buy from...it's a starting point for me in my search. I want a breeder who attempts to breed excellent examples of the breed in conformation, temperment AND health.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is no DNA test right now that will reveal whether or not a dog will pass on things like liver shunt, heart issues, etc. Breeders have to rely on the tests they do have and the health history of the dogs in their lines. A good breeder does all they can to make sure they produce healthy puppies. However, breeders aren't God and even the best breeders can have a health issue arise. What proves to me if they are ethical or not is how they handle it...and I'm sure we each have our own opinions on how these situations should be handled. If they continue to knowingly breed health issues, then they are not an ethical breeder in my opinion... Yes, there are show breeders that will continue to breed unhealthy dogs but just because they show doesn't automatically make them ethical.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Ok- let me first say i understand your anger and frustration with the medical problems you are having with your dogs, BUT I looked back at your earlier posts and you mention where you got your male dog from. You were ecstatic with your breeder at that point and couldn't have praised her more. You said how she had prepared him, how good his temperment was,how it was obvious she loved her dogs, etc. Now you have turned on her because your dog MAY have an obscure brain disease. I don't think that is very fair to her. I doubt very much she could have known about this. According to the weights you posted- he is also a very tiny boy- weighing under 4 pounds. Some very tiny dogs are prone to more health issues. And your female dog's luxatting patellas are another issue. As others have mentioned they are so prevalent in this and many other toy breeds that breeders do not offer guarantees against this. Also, the dog's knees can be injured and it can occur NOT as a genetic defect. OK- so it looks like I am defending the breeders here, but there is also another side. 

One of my other dogs is a havanese. What a difference in maltese show breeders and havanese show breeders!!! (No offense to the show breeders on this site) It was a shock to me when buying my maltese that the breeders I talked with did little to no health testing. The good Havanese breeders have the breeding adults tested for eyes, baer hearing, cardiac, hips, liver values, etc BEFORE they breed their dogs (this means the dog must be at least 2 years old before some of these tests can be performed. The dogs continue to have some of these tests yearly. Some breeders require the puppy buyer to also have some of these tests done- not because they are going to show the dog, but so they know if their are any genetic issues popping up in the line. Now THAT is ethical breeding!! The Havanese breeders are trying very hard to breed genetic problems out of the lines!! Unless some maltese breeders start making this the norm- the breed will continue to have the same genetic defects. Oh, and even with all these expensive tests- havanese show dogs are still less expensive than maltese pups!!


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

jpupart said:


> Ok- let me first say i understand your anger and frustration with the medical problems you are having with your dogs, BUT I looked back at your earlier posts and you mention where you got your male dog from. You were ecstatic with your breeder at that point and couldn't have praised her more. You said how she had prepared him, how good his temperment was,how it was obvious she loved her dogs, etc. Now you have turned on her because your dog MAY have an obscure brain disease. I don't think that is very fair to her. I doubt very much she could have known about this. According to the weights you posted- he is also a very tiny boy- weighing under 4 pounds. Some very tiny dogs are prone to more health issues. And your female dog's luxatting patellas are another issue. As others have mentioned they are so prevalent in this and many other toy breeds that breeders do not offer guarantees against this. Also, the dog's knees can be injured and it can occur NOT as a genetic defect. OK- so it looks like I am defending the breeders here, but there is also another side.
> 
> One of my other dogs is a havanese. What a difference in maltese show breeders and havanese show breeders!!! (No offense to the show breeders on this site) It was a shock to me when buying my maltese that the breeders I talked with did little to no health testing. The good Havanese breeders have the breeding adults tested for eyes, baer hearing, cardiac, hips, liver values, etc BEFORE they breed their dogs (this means the dog must be at least 2 years old before some of these tests can be performed. The dogs continue to have some of these tests yearly. Some breeders require the puppy buyer to also have some of these tests done- not because they are going to show the dog, but so they know if their are any genetic issues popping up in the line. Now THAT is ethical breeding!! The Havanese breeders are trying very hard to breed genetic problems out of the lines!! Unless some maltese breeders start making this the norm- the breed will continue to have the same genetic defects. Oh, and even with all these expensive tests- havanese show dogs are still less expensive than maltese pups!!


Is that because havanese are more prone to those issues?

I know a breeder who breeds maltese and another breed - she gets the other breed tested for problems but not the maltese - because the other breed are way more prone to health problems.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> Wow! I can certainly feel your frustration. I am so sorry for the issues you are dealing with. It does sound like your little ones are facing some serious difficulties. Will say some prayers for these precious babies. rayer:
> 
> I think there is a lot of generalization going on in your post though. You seem to have been generalizing when you bought your dogs that show dogs = ethical/responsible breeders and show breeders = healthy dogs. Now that you see those things are not true, you seem to be going to the other extreme and generalizing to say that all show breeders are = only slightly better than puppy mills. :blink:
> 
> ...


:goodpost: My breeder would not honor her contract unless the buyer took the dog for a vet exam within the time specified. A good contract protects the dog, the buyer, and the breeder.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I am sorry for your troubles.
> 
> I bought a my Malt from an ethical show breeder because I wanted to be sure that I had a purebred Maltese. Not for snob appeal, but because I studied the breed and wanted one that fit the breed standard and general temperament. I also wanted a puppy that would be properly socialized before it came to me.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: You are right, Suzan. There are no guarantees. I will say that because an ethical show breeder is working hard to improve the breed, this includes working to produce healthy animals, so I feel that getting a pup from someone like this increases the likelihood of a healthy animal but things can still go wrong.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

amby said:


> Is that because havanese are more prone to those issues?
> 
> I know a breeder who breeds maltese and another breed - she gets the other breed tested for problems but not the maltese - because the other breed are way more prone to health problems.


No- I have heard of much less medical issues with Havanese than maltese and most other toy breeds. But with Havanese becoming more popular- they are trying to keep it that way!!


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## bluebuzz81 (Jul 29, 2008)

I am sorry, I didn't know you can find out where I have purchased my dog.

But Yes, I still love my boy dog's breeder. My boy dog has been the most special dog I have ever had and he still is. He just is absolutely in my heart and I just love him to death. Regardless of this health problem that I have been having to deal with, I was not saying she knew it from day one. I am just frustrated with all the vetbills at the moment because 6 ~ 7000 dollars to me is a lot of money. And I still don't have an assurance after all this that he will for sure survive. He might not. So Am I frustrated? YES!

But honestly, I did loose a lot of respect with the show breeders. I think for people that are out there to really love the dog, it's really difficult to be in the game. 

So, my point was not to put people down, I just wanted to make a point of saying, they are not as great and honest as we may think. I am sure there are honest and nice ones out there and I believe my boy dog's breeder was one of them hopefully, but do I think all of them are that way? No. Infact I believe less than 50% of them are really doing it out of love, mostly for their self ambition. Just a thought....


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

bluebuzz81 said:


> I am sorry, I didn't know you can find out where I have purchased my dog.
> 
> But Yes, I still love my boy dog's breeder. My boy dog has been the most special dog I have ever had and he still is. He just is absolutely in my heart and I just love him to death. Regardless of this health problem that I have been having to deal with, I was not saying she knew it from day one. I am just frustrated with all the vetbills at the moment because 6 ~ 7000 dollars to me is a lot of money. And I still don't have an assurance after all this that he will for sure survive. He might not. So Am I frustrated? YES!
> 
> ...


I am confused! First, you say you love your dog's breeder and then you say they (show breeders) are not as great and honest as we may think .. So, then, which breeders are you referring to if not the one you actually have experience with? (This is a rhetorical question.)

And to say you believe less than 50% are doing it out of love (I assume you mean "love" for the breed). You must have just pulled that number out of the air.. I can't imagine why you would say such things with no factual back up.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I totally can empathize with you and your frustration. In this economy, I don't know how the average-income household pays for all their pet-related expenses, let alone huge vet bills. 

I meet so many "well-bred" Maltese in NYC, and really, one pet from a given show breeder can be at the vet constantly while another from the same exact show breeder will only go in for vaccinations and neuter/spay. I have one friend who got two dogs in a row from a famous breeder, and one died while the second was so unhealthy she returned the dog. Yet I have at least five other friends with dogs from this very same breeder who are totally healthy. You just can't know in advance. 

I think breeders TRY to do their best to strive for the betterment of the breed, but even going with a show breeder anything can happen.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

Since I don't know every breeder by thier first name, would somone please tell me who is Susie? http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/87344-adorable-boy.html

I can see this thread going the same way as I'm new, my Maltese baby died, need to find a great, reputable breeder PLEASE READ went - *CLOSED!* :huh:


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

I think since the OP stated that she prefers not to mention her breeder's name and did not realize that her posts were searchable, maybe you might kindly think about taking the link off and removing your reference to her breeder's first name? OP still needs to have an ongoing relationship with her breeder in order to take care of her sick puppy.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Starsmom said:


> Since I don't know every breeder by thier first name, would somone please tell me who is Susie? http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/87344-adorable-boy.html
> 
> I can see this thread going the same way as I'm new, my Maltese baby died, need to find a great, reputable breeder PLEASE READ went - *CLOSED!* :huh:


 

Susie is Susie Pham from "Chalet de Maltese"


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I am sorry for your troubles.
> 
> I bought a my Malt from an ethical show breeder because I wanted to be sure that I had a purebred Maltese. Not for snob appeal, but because I studied the breed and wanted one that fit the breed standard and general temperament. I also wanted a puppy that would be properly socialized before it came to me.
> 
> ...


Ugh just typed up a whole response and timed out  will type more later 

I agree with this but these videos are very enlightening


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

princessre said:


> I think since the OP stated that she prefers not to mention her breeder's name and did not realize that her posts were searchable, maybe you might kindly think about taking the link off and removing your reference to her breeder's first name? OP still needs to have an ongoing relationship with her breeder in order to take care of her sick puppy.


No



mysugarbears said:


> Susie is Susie Pham from "Chalet de Maltese"


Thank you.

There's another thread here from a year and a half ago saying she was retiring. http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/97738-chalet-de-maltese-has-new-litter.html In this thread there is a cloud hanging about this breeder. Don't know what it 's about b/c Annie (preciouspups) deleted it. Maybe the OP of this thread should PM her. There isn't a website any longer if there was one in the first place. 

I think the OP here is frustrated with the vet - Didn't I read here about a vet in TN that members have a high regard for? Maybe she should be contacting that one.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

So much for respecting the OP's wishes.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Wow. I'll say.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

I, for one, know of a few shadey breeders who show. Yup, know first hand. I also know many more who are the most caring, responsible, and fair breeders I've ever known.

With that said, I doubt I would buy from any breeder anyway. Far too many in the shelters, and rescues, who are just as worthy. Perhaps more worthy.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

I'll probably get "spanked " for this...

This thread isn't that much different from the other one - I'm new, my Maltese baby died, need to find a great, reputable breeder PLEASE READ The "players" names are changed, owners have/had sick fluffs, both came from "reputable breeders", and both breeders seem to have thrown in the towel. Like the other thread anyone who has babes from this breeder may have information pertinent to this OP. 

I'm not out to slam any or all breeders, I don't know any. Where I'm coming form is: If your in business, no matter what business, and you don't stand behind the product it should be put out there. We think nothing of pointing out sites that are BYB'rs with a computer, and those on the Greeder List/USDA so what make this so exceptional? The fact this breeder showed her dogs? This is where ethics comes into play.

I think a breeder inquiry as mentioned in the other thread would be beneficial here. Is this forum going to be open and above board for everything, or just for certain topics and a place to ooh and ah over pictures?


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Trying to keep my mouth shut here, but not too successful.

In reading through some of these posts I am saddened by the rude comments and the personal attacks by people who take a stand on both sides of this issue.

I don't understand why people cannot discuss _issues/behavior_ without being rude or engaging in personal attacks. 

Breeders are human and some of them are better than others. They don't sell "products," so we cannot compare them in that manner. I'll say it again: There are NO guarantees when a person buys a pet that it will be in good health for its entire life. There are many factors that contribute to good health. Genetics is only one of them. Environment, nutrition, etc. come into play as well. And then there is that "who knows why" factor, that crops up more often than we like. Stuff happens, and it's horrible that it has to happen to our dear sweet dogs and we have to see them in pain, sick etc. Horrible. If a person is frustrated because they have a sick dog and the breeder isn't showing much interest or being supportive in some way, I can certainly understand their frustration. I feel badly for people who have sick dogs. It's a very hard thing to go through. Sometimes they may lash out from hurt. I can certainly understand that. But I don't think that for one minute SM will survive for very long if everyone came on here and started airing dirty laundry about breeders. It's not that I don't want to know people's experience, it's just that there are many people here who are tied in to certain breeders and/or have deep friendships. And then there are others who will exaggerate and lie for whatever reasons. So don't think that will ever happen, whether we want the truth or not. Maybe someone should start an anonymous breeder review website. Maybe that might be a safe way to find out about breeders, I don't know. 

Honestly, unless a breeder was deliberately deceptive, dog health is something *no one *can control 100%. 

Please, no matter which "side" of this issue you are on, try to be kind to each other and discuss the issues without making it personal. These types of nasty threads are becoming more commonplace on SM, and it is very disheartening. I think that is one of the reasons why many people want SM to be a place where we post photos and talk about happy things. They are afraid of getting attacked if they have a difference of opinion. 

There will never be total agreement on Maltese show breeders. Even if a ton of people have a great experience, there is bound to be a disappointed buyer out there.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Thanks, Suzan. I've started to reply several times and then deleted my response thinking "Why bother?" Pidgeonholing breeders into "miller, byb, reputable breeder, show breeder, top tier breeder" and then ranking them by "bad, fair, good, better, best" is absolutely useless in my book because your idea of good may be my idea of best, with our rankings being totally subjective. As for the personal attacks, the pettiness, the snipiness, and the need to be right about everything all the time, I don't understand why people initiate it and I don't understand why people respond to it because the result of that behavior is that an informative thread with a good balance of positions or opinions and opposing positions or opinions ends up getting shut down.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Trying to keep my mouth shut here, but not too successful.
> 
> In reading through some of these posts I am saddened by the rude comments and the personal attacks by people who take a stand on both sides of this issue.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Trying to keep my mouth shut here, but not too successful.
> 
> In reading through some of these posts I am saddened by the rude comments and the personal attacks by people who take a stand on both sides of this issue.
> 
> ...


 
:ThankYou::goodpost:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Ya know...I could drive a really, really, really nice car. Instead my vets do. And if you ask my husband that's 2 really, really, really nice cars. That's called owning a pet and being a responsible owner. 
Breeders who don't stand behind their dogs and don't take action when faced with genetic problems are crappy no matter how many dogs they've finished. 
**** happens, even to the best. And shitty people happen, even at the top of the show world. Nothing replaces doing your homework and being realistic about pet ownership. 

OP: If you'd like a recommendation for the neuro issue, drop me a PM and I'll see who I know that might be able to help.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Trying to keep my mouth shut here, but not too successful.
> 
> In reading through some of these posts I am saddened by the rude comments and the personal attacks by people who take a stand on both sides of this issue.
> 
> ...


 
All this is exactly why I think it is VERY risky to recommend a breeder and makes me anxious for the buyer every time a new person comes on here and asks for breeder recommendations. Knowing what I know about canine genetics, I will never again recommend a breeder - whether it be show, BYB, or otherwise. Also, one never knows what connections the members have with breeders nor do we know whether or not a puppy from a particular breeder will be healthy *and well socialized*.


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## bluebuzz81 (Jul 29, 2008)

Honestly I just posted to vent.
My vet called me today and told me he was diagnosed with Meningitis and Esepholitis due to his poor immune system that can be related and be hereditary, or just have developed something in between. 
I am just trying to make a point. And I really wish none of my breeders were mentioned here. I really am not trying to point fingers or anything like that. 
I did not purposely mention names of my breeders because I did not want to bash. Honestly I do love my boy dog’s breeder and I still do not think that it was intentional, but I am slightly upset because I have never loved any dog as much as I have loved him. He is just so special to me I just can not say how special he is. And also I really can not afford 6 ~ 7000 dollars, but when your baby is sick, what do you do? And if he does not respond well to medication, I might have to put him to sleep. He has been in and out of the vet clinic since this summer. He was also diagnosed with infectious bowl disease about 2 month ago and I felt it was end to this headache, but now I find something worse. 
The reason why I am saying this is because I have been reading this post for a long time and I also have been very interested in the show breeding industry and have had very high respect for the show breeders. I have always felt a dog should only be purchased from a show breeder due to a possibility of a dog having health problems when purchased from a non show breeder. 
After dealing with my other breeder when I have found out about her luxating patella issue, I honestly have lost all respect for show breeders. I did not only have a chance to talk to my breeder, but other very respected breeder that have sold the dog to my breeder. I was extremely disappointed. 
It just frustrated me a little when I read about people purchasing from back yard breeders that have had issues with their dogs getting sick etc. Spending thousands of dollars and so much heartache and people posting ….. You should have been more educated… and have purchased from a reputable show breeder. 
I will not compare the back yard breeders with a show breeder and that was clearly not my intension because I am very against puppy mills and any kind of breeding where the dogs are not treated well.
However, I feel most of us if they are not a show breeder, we categorize them as a backyard breeder or a non Reputable breeder, But I have seen a non show breeders that really love their dogs and the dogs are actually a part of the family and they just happen to have a litter or two and sell them. I mean who can really show dogs unless you are super rich anyway if you are planning on just having a dog or two? Right? 
If I were to have purchased from one of those breeders and was having this heartache I am just curious about the response I would receive on this post? Now that I have purchased from a very reputable show breeders and am having this heartache I am seeing people saying, a dog’s health can not be guaranteed. 
I sincerely apologize if I am making anyone mad, but I am just trying to say as you have all mentioned, a dog’s health can not be guaranteed. And as someone else mentioned in the show world there is a problem with the dogs being ridiculously inbred. However, I do also feel we are putting the show breeders on a pedestal making it seem as if, the dog is going to be good or almost perfect if we were to purchase from a show breeder.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Honestly, where are these "guarantees" in life? I have worked in healthcare for more years than some of you have been alive. Poeple and dogs have more in common than you all think. You can do _everything _right. You can eat a perfect diet and exercise like a maniac and if you are going to have a heart attack you are going to have a heart attack. We do all of these _right things_ to give us an edge and some peace of mind. That includes using good breeders to get a healthy, good natured, good looking dog. It gives us an edge, and some peace of mind. You can also be the person that smokes, drinks, and eats McDonalds everyday and lives to be 100. You could get a puppy mill dog that is adorable and healthy. There are no guarentees in life. Period. To think you can control these things is to believe in fairy tales. Control is an illusion. Just do your best to make good decisions and then accept what cannot be controlled.

**One more thing I want to say in regards to living with a dog with a medical condition. It is a little like planning a vacation. You plan a vacation to Italy, so you learn Italian, you research the food, the hotels and everything about Italy. You take off on your trip, eagerly anticipating Italy. The plane lands, and you get off, and look around, and low and behold, you are in Germany! What the heck??? You didn't plan for Germany, you don't know the language, you don't know the food or where to go! But, Germany is a really nice country too. Just not what you planned for. So, even though you didn't plan for bad patellas, or strange neuro stuff, it is not the end of the world. Just enjoy the ride and love that baby that you planned for!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> Honestly, where are these "guarantees" in life? I have worked in healthcare for more years than some of you have been alive. Poeple and dogs have more in common than you all think. You can do _everything _right. You can eat a perfect diet and exercise like a maniac and if you are going to have a heart attack you are going to have a heart attack. We do all of these _right things_ to give us an edge and some peace of mind. That includes using good breeders to get a healthy, good natured, good looking dog. It gives us an edge, and some peace of mind. You can also be the person that smokes, drinks, and eats McDonalds everyday and lives to be 100. You could get a puppy mill dog that is adorable and healthy. There are no guarentees in life. Period. To think you can control these things is to believe in fairy tales. Control is an illusion. Just do your best to make good decisions and then accept what cannot be controlled.



Well said. :thumbsup:


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## lovingmal (Apr 21, 2010)

Agree with many posters here. Also want to point out the importance of insurance. Some good ones cover for hereditary diseases in addition to accidents and illnesses. In addition some cover bilateral surgeries which is very important (for ex LP). And since none will cover pre ex
isting conditions so you have to get it when they are puppy.

I was very surprised none of the show breeders I had spoken to had insurance.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

pammy4501 said:


> Honestly, where are these "guarantees" in life? I have worked in healthcare for more years than some of you have been alive. Poeple and dogs have more in common than you all think. You can do _everything _right. You can eat a perfect diet and exercise like a maniac and if you are going to have a heart attack you are going to have a heart attack. We do all of these _right things_ to give us an edge and some peace of mind. That includes using good breeders to get a healthy, good natured, good looking dog. It gives us an edge, and some peace of mind. You can also be the person that smokes, drinks, and eats McDonalds everyday and lives to be 100. You could get a puppy mill dog that is adorable and healthy. There are no guarentees in life. Period. To think you can control these things is to believe in fairy tales. Control is an illusion. Just do your best to make good decisions and then accept what cannot be controlled.
> 
> **One more thing I want to say in regards to living with a dog with a medical condition. It is a little like planning a vacation. You plan a vacation to Italy, so you learn Italian, you research the food, the hotels and everything about Italy. You take off on your trip, eagerly anticipating Italy. The plane lands, and you get off, and look around, and low and behold, you are in Germany! What the heck??? You didn't plan for Germany, you don't know the language, you don't know the food or where to go! But, Germany is a really nice country too. Just not what you planned for. So, even though you didn't plan for bad patellas, or strange neuro stuff, it is not the end of the world. Just enjoy the ride and love that baby that you planned for!


Excellent post!!!! 

Linda


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Well, now we've heard it. The illness of the OP's dog very well may not be hereditary and yet some have managed to put that breeder's name out there, just in case she might be responsible..............just in case. Ugh! Mean spirited if you ask me.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

pammy4501 said:


> Honestly, where are these "guarantees" in life? I have worked in healthcare for more years than some of you have been alive. Poeple and dogs have more in common than you all think. You can do _everything _right. You can eat a perfect diet and exercise like a maniac and if you are going to have a heart attack you are going to have a heart attack. We do all of these _right things_ to give us an edge and some peace of mind. That includes using good breeders to get a healthy, good natured, good looking dog. It gives us an edge, and some peace of mind. You can also be the person that smokes, drinks, and eats McDonalds everyday and lives to be 100. You could get a puppy mill dog that is adorable and healthy. There are no guarentees in life. Period. To think you can control these things is to believe in fairy tales. Control is an illusion. Just do your best to make good decisions and then accept what cannot be controlled.
> 
> **One more thing I want to say in regards to living with a dog with a medical condition. It is a little like planning a vacation. You plan a vacation to Italy, so you learn Italian, you research the food, the hotels and everything about Italy. You take off on your trip, eagerly anticipating Italy. The plane lands, and you get off, and look around, and low and behold, you are in Germany! What the heck??? You didn't plan for Germany, you don't know the language, you don't know the food or where to go! But, Germany is a really nice country too. Just not what you planned for. So, even though you didn't plan for bad patellas, or strange neuro stuff, it is not the end of the world. Just enjoy the ride and love that baby that you planned for!


 
Great post Pam!!!

To the OP, I am so very sorry, that your baby is not well right now, and I pray so hard, that your baby will feel better soon and be okay.

I never purchased from a show breeder. But I had two major major heartaches, my Tina Marie passed at age 7 and my sweet baby girl Kara at age 8. We got these two babies from very very very nice caring loving home breeders aka byb. But I was at their home, very few dogs, they LOVED their dogs BUT, one thing that even they did not realize, is to make sure there health lines were clean. They were unaware. I'm not upset at them at all, I didn't know better myself. My Tina Marie passed from chronic kidney failure at age 7. OMG I was devesated. Not knowing any better, and because we loved Tina Marie so much, we called her breeder, to see if she had any pups available. She was SO sympathetic about my Tina Marie, and said "Oh sweetheart, that happened with all of mine". See, she didn't even catch, that something was possibly wrong there. That's what Tina's Mom passed away from as well. Tina's Dad was still living, and there was a little boy available that would have been Tina Marie's half brother, but it was hubby that pointed out to me, that it would not be wise to get the little boy, and go through the same heartache.

For me, to adopt/purchase from an ethical show breeder, lowers your risk of health issues, doesn't erase them, anything can pop up at anytime, with no one knowing, even the ethical breeder. It's not that we put ethical breeders on a pedestal, we just want healthy pups, as much as possible. In my opinion, the best way to try and achieve that, is from an ethical show breeder, that knows and test, his or her own lines. Whereas, pet people breeding their pets, really have no idea of the background of the dogs they are breeding, not health, temperment, and probably not at all to the standard of the Maltese breed.

It took me forever to understand all of this.

I think you are in deep pain and sadness now, and no, in no way do you want to publize your breeder, that was very clear. I will pray for your baby that all goes well.

Hearts and hugs to you.


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## mfa (Oct 5, 2009)

pammy4501 said:


> Honestly, where are these "guarantees" in life? I have worked in healthcare for more years than some of you have been alive. Poeple and dogs have more in common than you all think. You can do _everything _right. You can eat a perfect diet and exercise like a maniac and if you are going to have a heart attack you are going to have a heart attack. We do all of these _right things_ to give us an edge and some peace of mind. That includes using good breeders to get a healthy, good natured, good looking dog. It gives us an edge, and some peace of mind. You can also be the person that smokes, drinks, and eats McDonalds everyday and lives to be 100. You could get a puppy mill dog that is adorable and healthy. There are no guarentees in life. Period. To think you can control these things is to believe in fairy tales. Control is an illusion. Just do your best to make good decisions and then accept what cannot be controlled.
> 
> **One more thing I want to say in regards to living with a dog with a medical condition. It is a little like planning a vacation. You plan a vacation to Italy, so you learn Italian, you research the food, the hotels and everything about Italy. You take off on your trip, eagerly anticipating Italy. The plane lands, and you get off, and look around, and low and behold, you are in Germany! What the heck??? You didn't plan for Germany, you don't know the language, you don't know the food or where to go! But, Germany is a really nice country too. Just not what you planned for. So, even though you didn't plan for bad patellas, or strange neuro stuff, it is not the end of the world. Just enjoy the ride and love that baby that you planned for!



wow:goodpost: 



Cosy said:


> Well, now we've heard it. The illness of the OP's dog very well may not be hereditary and yet some have managed to put that breeder's name out there, just in case she might be responsible..............just in case. Ugh! Mean spirited if you ask me.


very :goodpost:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I've tried to stay out of this thread, but just wanted to add a couple of things. I bred and showed top winning Lhasa Apsos for almost 30 years and know almost all of the show breeders around for toys and non-Sporting dogs plus many from other groups as well.

As in life, I know show breeders that I do not consider to be truly reputable, and that I feel are only out there to WIN.

But most Show Breeders are truly ethical and are breeders because of their passion for the breed and because they want to contribute to bettering the breed.

But even reputable breeders aren't God. For every litter that they breed, they are making a judgement call of what a particular dam and a particular sire will produce if bred. This is based on years of knowledge and research of pedigrees -- not only for looks but also for health and temperment.

Can something go wrong? Of course it can. Just as with humans. People may have produced a number of offspring, and they may not have any genetic problems in their ansestors that they know about, and then, they produce a handicapped or very ill baby. They truly had no way of foreseeing this outcome, and most everyone chalks it up to being God's will.

The same is true with breeding animals. What makes a reputable breeder, imho, in this type of scenario, is what actions the breeder takes regarding the fluff and his/her responsibility. Also, it is important to determine if the cause is genetic. For example, many people believe that LPs are not genetic and are more environmental. This is a debate that could go on for days -- what is and what isn't genetic. So, if the breeder is responsible/reputable/ethical, he/she will certainly want to know about the fluff and will offer options to the owner. Remember, however, that the options may not always be what the owner wants. The owner wants their same fluff, but without the illness. That, of course, isn't possible. 

In addition, the breeder will try to determine where the genetic problem is coming from (which dog/line) and not breed him/her again. Also he/she will contact other owners of fluffs produced by the dog that is the carrier to alert them to any possible future problems.

There have been a lot of generalizations in this thread mostly due to the frustration of the original OP. I do feel for her plight and for her fluffs and the heartache and expense that she is going through, but I simply cannot abide the generalizations that all show breeders are not reputable (or that all show breeders are reputable, either).

As I said at the beginning, Show Breeders are human. Some are not reputable, but, imo, the majority are extremely reputable and passionate about their breed.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

My problem is not with the breeders. My problem is with this forum emphasizing that you can only get a healthy dog from a show breeder. Like some said there is NO GARANTEES. And this is what that forum should convey. If people want a dog close to the standard, their best bet is a show breeder. But when it comes to health there are no garantees even with show breeders. A lot of illnesses come up later on. How many litters have been born in the meantime ? And the breeders who do testing are rare. It also means that they have to wait at least until the bitch is 2 years old to breed her. I like what the havanese people are doing. Even so there is no 100% garantees. But at least they are trying. What cannot be said for the maltese people.

Something else who is a contradiction here is about the rescue dogs. On one side you recommend going to a show breeder to get a healthy dog and when people say they cannot afford it, you ask them to look into rescue. That's not exactly a pool of healthy dogs. A lot of those dogs are in rescue because of health problems in the first place. So how do you expect those same people to be able to care for a rescue ? who the odds are is coming from a puppy mill or byb that you say you can look forward to huge vet bills down the road because of health problems. Misinforming people is not ethical either. I hope that this is a lesson for all here and that breeders will not be put on a pedestal anymore.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

Cosy said:


> Well, now we've heard it. The illness of the OP's dog very well may not be hereditary and yet some have managed to put that breeder's name out there, just in case she might be responsible..............just in case. Ugh! Mean spirited if you ask me.


Naming was not done to be mean spirited. It was for information only. How it was perceived is up to the individual. 

There are two types of encephalitis, here's a great article on the subject.
Veterinary Teaching Hospital :: North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine 



MalteseJane said:


> My problem is not with the breeders. My problem is with this forum emphasizing that you can only get a healthy dog from a show breeder. Like some said there is NO GARANTEES. And this is what that forum should convey. If people want a dog close to the standard, their best bet is a show breeder. But when it comes to health there are no garantees even with show breeders. A lot of illnesses come up later on. How many litters have been born in the meantime ? And the breeders who do testing are rare. It also means that they have to wait at least until the bitch is 2 years old to breed her. I like what the havanese people are doing. Even so there is no 100% garantees. But at least they are trying. What cannot be said for the maltese people.
> 
> *Something else who is a contradiction here is about the rescue dogs*. On one side you recommend going to a show breeder to get a healthy dog and when people say they cannot afford it, you ask them to *look into rescue*. *That's not exactly a pool of healthy dogs*.* A lot of those dogs are in rescue because of health problems in the first place*. So how do you expect those same people to be able to care for a rescue ? who the odds are is coming from a puppy mill or byb that you say you can look forward to huge vet bills down the road because of health problems. Misinforming people is not ethical either. I hope that this is a lesson for all here and that breeders will not be put on a pedestal anymore.


I have pondered this myself. I would like to adopt rescues, but I must admit the questionable parentage for health issues is a concern. I know the guarantee for health isn't without some gamble. Yes, there are variables, but a dog from an ethical/reputable breeder should have better odds for health then one from questionable/unknown beginnings. _Ethical breeders_ will not continue to breed the same dam and or sire whose offspring have been reported to have hereditary illness.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

pammy4501 said:


> Honestly, where are these "guarantees" in life? I have worked in healthcare for more years than some of you have been alive. Poeple and dogs have more in common than you all think. You can do _everything _right. You can eat a perfect diet and exercise like a maniac and if you are going to have a heart attack you are going to have a heart attack. We do all of these _right things_ to give us an edge and some peace of mind. That includes using good breeders to get a healthy, good natured, good looking dog. It gives us an edge, and some peace of mind. You can also be the person that smokes, drinks, and eats McDonalds everyday and lives to be 100. You could get a puppy mill dog that is adorable and healthy. There are no guarentees in life. Period. To think you can control these things is to believe in fairy tales. Control is an illusion. Just do your best to make good decisions and then accept what cannot be controlled.
> 
> **One more thing I want to say in regards to living with a dog with a medical condition. It is a little like planning a vacation. You plan a vacation to Italy, so you learn Italian, you research the food, the hotels and everything about Italy. You take off on your trip, eagerly anticipating Italy. The plane lands, and you get off, and look around, and low and behold, you are in Germany! What the heck??? You didn't plan for Germany, you don't know the language, you don't know the food or where to go! But, Germany is a really nice country too. Just not what you planned for. So, even though you didn't plan for bad patellas, or strange neuro stuff, it is not the end of the world. Just enjoy the ride and love that baby that you planned for!


I agree and having sick ones too my motto is 

LIFE HAPPENS WHEN YOU ARE MAKING PLANS LOL. 

I had no clue I was going to spend the last 5 years learning everything I could about animal health but when you get an unhealthy one you try your best to care for them the best you can and why these groups are so important for support and education and helping one another with what we learn. 

I did not do my homework and beat myself up for it but then I have been reading on these groups for years now and realized people who did do all the homework had pups with issues as well and when I realized there are no guarantees and to just try to help the ones that need help and support them when going through a tough time. 

You can only try to do the best you can upfront 

To the OP if the diagnosis is the above then it is not necessarily genetic as it can be from other things such as vaccines, flea meds, etc - it can be many things and it is usually something that triggers and sets it off. 

I would recommend joining this group for information

NewGMEDogs : NewGMEDogs

I am so sorry you have been going through this and totally understand your frustration and unless someone has dealt with a sick dog day in and day out sometimes they do not understand that frustration and heartache. I do know once you get a system down and know the diagnosis it does get easier.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Starsmom said:


> Naming was not done to be mean spirited. It was for information only. How it was perceived is up to the individual.
> 
> There are two types of encephalitis, here's a great article on the subject.
> Veterinary Teaching Hospital :: North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine
> ...


I think what her vet is referring to is this 

Granulomatous Meningoencephalomyelitis (GME)

encephalitis happens when there is swelling on the brain which can be caused by many things but her vet saying menangitis makes me believe it is GME related which runs in this breed sadly

great link just read through it and it addresses GME/NME 

OP definitely join the above group as they have alot of good info and reach out to Pam on here as Lola has this as well. Nancy on the group has a yorkie with it and she has done well for years so dogs have done well like Lola and Brooke so do not be discouraged


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Lacie's Mom said:


> I've tried to stay out of this thread, but just wanted to add a couple of things. I bred and showed top winning Lhasa Apsos for almost 30 years and know almost all of the show breeders around for toys and non-Sporting dogs plus many from other groups as well.
> 
> As in life, I know show breeders that I do not consider to be truly reputable, and that I feel are only out there to WIN.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Lynn, for your insight. Wonderful post!



MalteseJane said:


> My problem is not with the breeders. My problem is with this forum emphasizing that you can only get a healthy dog from a show breeder. Like some said there is NO GARANTEES. And this is what that forum should convey. If people want a dog close to the standard, their best bet is a show breeder. But when it comes to health there are no garantees even with show breeders. A lot of illnesses come up later on. How many litters have been born in the meantime ? And the breeders who do testing are rare. It also means that they have to wait at least until the bitch is 2 years old to breed her. I like what the havanese people are doing. Even so there is no 100% garantees. But at least they are trying. What cannot be said for the maltese people.
> 
> Something else who is a contradiction here is about the rescue dogs. On one side you recommend going to a show breeder to get a healthy dog and when people say they cannot afford it, you ask them to look into rescue. That's not exactly a pool of healthy dogs. A lot of those dogs are in rescue because of health problems in the first place. So how do you expect those same people to be able to care for a rescue ? who the odds are is coming from a puppy mill or byb that you say you can look forward to huge vet bills down the road because of health problems. Misinforming people is not ethical either. I hope that this is a lesson for all here and that breeders will not be put on a pedestal anymore.


Janine, I totally agree with your sentiments about the manner in which some of the advice offered on this forum is offered as "absolute". But (of course there's a "but") I don't agree with everything you've said. You and I go way back and I know we are on the same page ... Alex was your young and handsome boy from a local breeder and Andy and Grace were my two darlings from rescue. Both of us have experienced health issues with our dogs and both of us have taken it in stride because "life happens." Is there a chance that we would have had the same or worse issues if we had gotten our dogs from "top tier" breeders? Absolutely!! Is every locally bred dog or rescue dog going to cost millions and die and early an horrid death? Absolutely not!! I believe, however, that most "good" breeders do care about health. Their name is at stake with every litter bred and every puppy sold. And I KNOW that health testing IS being done. Comparing what health testing is being done for Maltese to health testing being done for any other breed is like comparing apples to oranges. People are testing for identified issues with their particular breed provided there is a test available. Someone mentioned the Baer test. I don't do that test. Why? It tests for deafness. I've never had a deaf Maltese and deafness is not an identified issue in our breed. Now if I produced a deaf puppy then you can be sure I'm going to do some testing. Health testing is ever evolving and with each generation of breeders it's becoming more openly discussed. That all takes time. How can we all keep the wheels of progress moving in a forward direction? Buyers should be asking for testing to be done just as much as breeders should be doing the testing. Frankly, it's a two way street.

Hugs to Alex from his long-time buddies Andy and Grace. :smootch:


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Alex has been mostly healthy. The surgeries he had for his legs are not the breeder's fault. Alex brought that on himself by climbing the baby gate and he was a HUGE jumper. Thrombocetopenia we don't know what triggered it. Anyway it was a one time event. He was diagnosed for the heart murmur at 10. That's old age. People get sick too when they get old. The recurrent staph infection he had, I don't know what to think about it. He has not had ANY since we are in Arizona and I stopped completely giving him heartworm medicine. He is 13-½ now. If you don't know you would never think he is that old. He looks like a young dog. But I know the clock is ticking.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

dwerten said:


> I agree and having sick ones too my motto is
> 
> LIFE HAPPENS WHEN YOU ARE MAKING PLANS LOL.
> 
> ...


I really love that you research alot, and try to be of such help to dogs with health issues, Deb!! :aktion033::aktion033::aktion033: You are such a wonderful person.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Janine,

Jonathan just turned 13 last week....its hard to believe all these little ones who "grew up" together are in their teens! 

Jonathan has been quite healthy other than a bad mouth and some eye problems. I feel very blessed with him.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Janine and others ..... I think the wrong conclusion has been drawn regarding why buying from a show breeder is promoted here. I think most know why a mill is bad, so I won't go in to that now, but I do think some people here don't see anything wrong with a BYB.

A show breeder generally makes sure that the puppy is healthy upon arrival in its new home. It is less likely a puppy from a show breeder will have coccidia, giardia and other issues that we read about here from BYB puppies. 

Beyond that, the show breeder can only do so much when nature is at play.

For those who don't know why we support and suggest show breeders ... here are just some of the reasons:

*Show breeders* - _and generally not BYBs_ - breed to better the breed so your Malt will likely look like a Malt should look or very close to it. Those who are aficionados of the breed care very much that the breed's looks and personality are carried forward. So it is recommended that people buy from breeders who are at least trying to produce close-to-standard Malts.

*Show breeders* - _and generally not BYBs_ - are not breeding to make money off their dogs. Most of us who are animal lovers find that scenario unpleasant and we wouldn't want to support a breeder who breeds their dogs in order to make a living or even a few extra bucks.

*Show breeders* - _and generally not BYBs_ - have a limited registration and a spay/neuter clause in their contracts. This limits the ability of a buyer to use the breeder's Malt to produce puppies.

Because *show breeders* - _and generally not BYBs_ -and those who purchase their puppies generally keep in touch when major issues arise, it is likely that they will be aware if a health issue is discovered in one of their puppies. Then the ethical show breeder can research the situation and determine if the parents of the affected dog should be pulled from their breeding program. This can prevent future heartache down the line.

*Show breeders*- _and generally not BYBs_- let their Malts go home at no sooner than 12 weeks and they socialize them and make sure there is a good fit with the owner's desires. 

*Show breeder*s - _and generally not BYBs_ - make sure as much as possible that the home the puppy is going to is a good fit for the puppy's personality and that the owner is one which appears to be offering a good home for the pup.

I'm sure some will be saying that their show breeder didn't do some of the things I listed .. and that perhaps their BYB did do some of these things. *There will be good representatives and bad representatives of both types of breeders *but what I wrote is what the best show breeders do and why it is recommended that people buy their Malts from them. 

I doubt there will be any BYBs who breed to better the breed and who are not breeding to make money off the backs of their Malts.


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

If a "show breeder" is showing one or two dogs a year to their championship but has at least ten litters a year, what is the purpose of all the extra breeding if not for profit?


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Green444 said:


> If a "show breeder" is showing one or two dogs a year to their championship but has at least ten litters a year, what is the purpose of all the extra breeding if not for profit?


I can only guess the reasons but one could be that they need, for example, two girls for show and they haven't gotten them yet out of the litters they've had so far. Another reason is, as you suggest, that they are indeed breeding for profit. :angry:


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

k/c mom said:


> Janine and others ..... I think the wrong conclusion has been drawn regarding why buying from a show breeder is promoted here. I think most know why a mill is bad, so I won't go in to that now, but I do think some people here don't see anything wrong with a BYB.
> 
> A show breeder generally makes sure that the puppy is healthy upon arrival in its new home. It is less likely a puppy from a show breeder will have coccidia, giardia and other issues that we read about here from BYB puppies.
> 
> ...


Sher, I think you are right about your statement that some people are misunderstanding the reason that show breeders are promoted here. 

However, I also think that Janine and the OP are right when they say we tend to overgeneralize the idea that show breeders = ethical breeders. It is more a matter of odds in favor than a pure relationship of equals. You say generally not BYB's, I think it would be fair to also put that generally in front of the word show breeders because of course there are many exceptions and this is why I and others keep saying it is soooo important to do your research. 

For example, assuming because someone shows they are not making money off their dogs is wrong. Done correctly with a small scale breeding program most breeders barely break even or go well into the hole with their show dogs. However, large scale breeders, especially large scale breeders who breed dozens of litters per year and rarely if ever have anything in the ring, they are probably making PILES of money. Some show breeders are excellent about keeping in touch with buyers and are wise to do so to make sure that the pups they have sold continue to do well years down the line, but there are many who are impossible to reach, and communication does not stay open. 

My point is, the critique of this forum as promoting show breeders as the end all be all is probably somewhat accurate, but I hope that people who read this do not go to the other extreme and say well then why does it matter if someone shows or not? 

A few months back when we were having a lot of posts to available puppies, people who had never met breeders, who had only seen their websites were saying judging the breeder solely on the fact that they had a finished champion parent. They had no first hand experience to base these recommendations on, just the "show dog pictures." This was a disservice to prospective buyers. Some of us who showed noticed some of the red flags on that website, but again we had no first hand experience with the breeder, so we were not in a position to raise the alarms. 

Again, I look at showing as a very important sign of an ethical breeder, but it is a starting place not an ending place and it is where a conversation should begin, not where it should end.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Is there a site where you can research how many litters any particular 'show breeder' of interest is registering every year?


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

maltlovereileen said:


> Is there a site where you can research how many litters any particular 'show breeder' of interest is registering every year?


Not that I know of Eileen. And frankly, I know of some less honest breeders who do not register litters, especially singleton litters, as hitting a certain number litters puts you on an automatic AKC inspection list. 

Again, it is worth asking questions. You can always be lied to. Jenny Siliski, of Hollybelles, was a "show breeder." After my Clancy died, I called her and she certainly knew all the right answers, but the more questions I asked the less she was willing to say. I didn't suspect what we later learned, but I did decide not to get a puppy from her. You will remember it was at that time that I began fostering for rescue. I thank God for all my luck, my research and my instincts.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

CloudClan said:


> Sher, I think you are right about your statement that some people are misunderstanding the reason that show breeders are promoted here.
> 
> However, I also think that Janine and the OP are right when they say we tend to overgeneralize the idea that show breeders = ethical breeders. It is more a matter of odds in favor than a pure relationship of equals. *You say generally not BYB's, I think it would be fair to also put that generally in front of the word show breeders because of course there are many exceptions and this is why I and others keep saying it is soooo important to do your research. *
> 
> ...


Referring to the bolded portion above: That's why I said this at the end of my post: "I'm sure some will be saying that their show breeder didn't do some of the things I listed .. and that perhaps their BYB did do some of these things. *There will be good representatives and bad representatives of both types of breeders *but what I wrote is what the best show breeders do and why it is recommended that people buy their Malts from them."


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

k/c mom said:


> I can only guess the reasons but one could be that they need, for example, two girls for show and they haven't gotten them yet out of the litters they've had so far. Another reason is, as you suggest, that they are indeed breeding for profit. :angry:


Or it's possible that they can only finish so many a year themselves but place show quality puppies that they don't keep themselves into show homes where they are finished by those that buy them.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Thanks, Carina...that's too bad. I had no idea that you could risk suspension for too many litters either...interesting. I guess the AKC was trying to figure out how to regulate this too. Not so easy it appears.

I am quite sure many are very profitable. All you need to know to figure this out is how many dogs are in their 'program'... and start adding up at $xxx average price per pup from the females, at the recommended no more than 1 litter a year, figure on the low side of 2 pups a year, and even with such a low starting point, the number gets pretty high pretty fast...esp when you figure some will have more than 2 pups, or maybe even more than 1 litter. If they are not very active in the show circuit, much of that money will end up being profit.

Please note that I am NOT SLAMMING show breeders or breeders, just the whole idea of people doing this purely for the betterment of the breed is a bit slanted IMHO. I'm sure some are, but I'm sure a lot like the money too. Thank God not many are like Hollybelles, by a long shot, but the shades of gray can really vary here.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Just like in any group, you will have your ethical and the unethical. It's almost like asking "Are all pet owners responsible"??? And sadly, we know the answer to that.

For me, if want a special baby, there are many wonderful foster agencies that may have just the right match.

Of if you want a pup, for me, the best way, would be to obtain one from an Ethical show breeder. I would hate for a wide brush be painted over the entire show breeding world, we would not have these precious beings, the Maltese according to the standard, would start to not exsist, if it were not for the Ethical show breeders, keeping this incredible lovely breed alive. Just be sure and do your homework, the ethcial breeder, will also do their's making sure, you are the right home, for their precious one.

I would be so heavy hearted, if people started questioning every show breeder, and start turning to byb breeders, whether loving or not. 

To me, it's that easy.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

maltlovereileen said:


> Thanks, Carina...that's too bad. I had no idea that you could risk suspension for too many litters either...interesting. I guess the AKC was trying to figure out how to regulate this too. Not so easy it appears.
> 
> I am quite sure many are very profitable. All you need to know to figure this out is how many dogs are in their 'program'... and start adding up at $xxx average price per pup from the females, at the recommended no more than 1 litter a year, figure on the low side of 2 pups a year, and even with such a low starting point, the number gets pretty high pretty fast...esp when you figure some will have more than 2 pups, or maybe even more than 1 litter. If they are not very active in the show circuit, much of that money will end up being profit.
> 
> Please note that I am NOT SLAMMING show breeders or breeders, just the whole idea of people doing this purely for the betterment of the breed is a bit slanted IMHO. I'm sure some are, but I'm sure a lot like the money too. Thank God not many are like Hollybelles, by a long shot, but the shades of gray can really vary here.


Just some quick clarifications --

There is no risk of suspension from AKC for the number of litters produced in a year. At one time 7 registered litters in a year meant an automatic inspection by the AKC. I heard that it's now 5 registered litters per year but have not seen that written anywhere. Only if one fails the inspection would there be a risk of suspension. The inspection includes, among other things, living quarters, condition of the dogs, and paperwork. Any breeder who registers even 1 litter a year could be inspected by the AKC.

As for figuring profit, there are some other expenses that should be added before figuring net profit -- food, basic grooming supplies and equipment such as grooming tables, driers, clippers, brushes, combs, shampoos and conditioners; dog room equipment like beds, toys, treats, x-pens and potty pads; veterinary care including wellness exams, dentals, vaccinations, x-rays and/or ultrasounds, bile acid tests; possible fees such as stud fees and c-sections; contractual obligations which may include a puppy back; and show costs including entry fees, handler fees, photographs, specialized grooming supplies, show leads, ringside tables, and more. Whether someone shows or not there are a lot of expenses related to just basic care. Generally those who breed on a larger scale also employ kennel help to assist with cleaning, grooming and exercising of the dogs.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

allheart said:


> Just like in any group, you will have your ethical and the unethical. It's almost like asking "Are all pet owners responsible"??? And sadly, we know the answer to that.
> 
> For me, if want a special baby, there are many wonderful foster agencies that may have just the right match.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


Can I just say "What she said!!!" Perfect.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

CloudClan said:


> Not that I know of Eileen. And frankly, I know of some less honest breeders who do not register litters, especially singleton litters, as hitting a certain number litters puts you on an automatic AKC inspection list.


It used to be if you stayed under 7 litters a year, AKC would not come to visit. That changed. Now, it is a roulet type thing. In some cases it does depend on how many litters you produced in a year, because I was inspected last year because I had "registered" 7 litters. My AKC representive stated I had done that, but had I "registered" the litters that were born in the year they were born, I wouldn't have come up. Then, I also changed my location. I registered puppies born in Nov and Dec in Jan of the next year. 
You cannot be suspended for having too many litters by AKC. They make their money by registering litters. Most suspensions are if you refuse to be inspected. You can refuse one time. If you do so again, you will be suspended. AKC isn't trying to suspend you, they want to work with you and have you registering litters to them. 

Experience the MAGIC


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

This is a very informative thread so thanks for all the great info

I went to the pet expo and spoke with AKC reps as I never registered Dee Dee and she is limited AKC. I figured it was not that important since not breeding her nor showing her.

Lucy is also AKC and not registered either. 

Is there a reason to register if not? Just curious the response here as well.

I held back as she had so many health issues and wanted to find out more on this. They said it really did not matter about her health issues as they do not keep track of that information. I asked if they investigated breeders who bred AKC dogs with health issues and they said no. They said it is random investigations and they try to get to so many breeders a year to check out their conditions mostly but health was not important and then they offered to sell me their pet insurance LOL. 

I had thought that owners of AKC pets could document genetic conditions with them so that maybe the dog causing these genetic conditions could not be bred under AKC registration but learned this is not the case. 

Dee Dee I am sure is from a BYB. Again, I did not do my homework and never knew about all this stuff back then boy has this been an eye opening experience into the world of dogs though LOL


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

AKC is a registry. That's it.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

There has always been roulette inspections as well as litter numbers. Because they've lifted the number of litters doesn't mean one cannot be inspected.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

jmm said:


> AKC is a registry. That's it.


Just curious so do they even care about the ones being registered? 

I am sure it is the more they register the more money they make and it is a profit deal. 

I do not know much about this stuff but always wanting to learn as I was naive thinking that AKC was better than say CKC etc as many puppymillers register under CKC but if it is just about getting registration fees then are both just registering anything or are there some strict guidelines they must follow 

Dex (my puppy mill pup) is CKC and Lucy and Dee Dee are AKC 

what is the big difference?


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Cosy said:


> There has always been roulette inspections as well as litter numbers. Because they've lifted the number of litters doesn't mean one cannot be inspected.


this is what they said that they do random checks and can only do so many a year due to man power.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

AKC vs. APR....AKC can and does check DNA on questionable registrations. AKC can and does suspend people from registering dogs if they fail inspection or are convicted of animal-related crimes. AKC does work with the CHF for research of diseases affecting purebred dogs. AKC does help with breed education. AKC sanctions conformation shows, hunting trials, obedience trials, agility trials, rally trials, lure coursing trials, etc. A registry like APR you can pretty much send in the papers and that's that. At the very least AKC makes an effort to ensure correct pedigrees.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

dwerten said:


> Just curious so do they even care about the ones being registered?
> 
> I am sure it is the more they register the more money they make and it is a profit deal.
> 
> ...



Ummm, AKC IS a lot better than those groups that the millers use. AKC is a NON-PROFIT organization. Like many non-profits they do desire to increase revenue to sustain their mission. But people often are harsh in the judgement of the AKC as only out to make money and the reality is that they have lost a significant portion of their revenue to those other registries as they have tried to implement measures that would make them more of a resource for legitimate breeders as opposed to the mills. 

Here is their mission statement: 
*AKC Mission Statement*
The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function. Founded in 1884, the AKC® and its affiliated organizations advocate for the purebred dog as a family companion, advance canine health and well-being, work to protect the rights of all dog owners and promote responsible dog ownership.

*AKC’s Objective:*

Advance the study, breeding, exhibiting, running and maintenance of purebred dogs.
*AKC's Core Values:*

We love purebred dogs
We are committed to advancing the sport of the purebred dog
We are dedicated to maintaining the integrity of our Registry
We protect the health and well-being of all dogs
We cherish dogs as companions
We are committed to the interests of dog owners
We uphold high standards for the administration and operation of the AKC
We recognize the critical importance of our clubs and volunteers


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

What does the CKC give anyone who registers their dog? A meaningless piece of paper. Do they hold dog shows? No. Do they hold responsible dog ownership days? No. Do they support canine health research? No. Do they advocate for the rights of ALL dog owners? No. So what does the CKC do with the registration fees they receive? Pocket it?

For a view of some of what the AKC does here's a link to the AKC Chairman's Report from November 2008. American Kennel Club - November 2008 Chairman's Report. From 1995 through 2008 the AKC donated $18.5 million to the Canine Health Foundation. What other registry in America donates money to canine health research?


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

MaryH said:


> What does the CKC give anyone who registers their dog? A meaningless piece of paper. Do they hold dog shows? No. Do they hold responsible dog ownership days? No. Do they support canine health research? No. Do they advocate for the rights of ALL dog owners? No. So what does the CKC do with the registration fees they receive? Pocket it?
> 
> For a view of some of what the AKC does here's a link to the AKC Chairman's Report from November 2008. American Kennel Club - November 2008 Chairman's Report. From 1995 through 2008 the AKC donated $18.5 million to the Canine Health Foundation. What other registry in America donates money to canine health research?


Truthfully I am not sure what the CKC does, but it doesn't seem too different to me. I haven't really looked into it. It is non profit, does sanction and check shows, very much an advocate of dogs. etc etc. CKC to me is Canadian Kennel Club. Don't know if there is another.


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## 08chrissy08 (Sep 19, 2008)

silverhaven said:


> Truthfully I am not sure what the CKC does, but it doesn't seem too different to me. I haven't really looked into it. It is non profit, does sanction and check shows, very much an advocate of dogs. etc etc. CKC to me is Canadian Kennel Club. Don't know if there is another.


Yep, there is another one. The one Mary refers to is definitely not the Canadian Kennel Club.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

silverhaven said:


> Truthfully I am not sure what the CKC does, but it doesn't seem too different to me. I haven't really looked into it. It is non profit, does sanction and check shows, very much an advocate of dogs. etc etc. CKC to me is Canadian Kennel Club. Don't know if there is another.





08chrissy08 said:


> Yep, there is another one. The one Mary refers to is definitely not the Canadian Kennel Club.


It called Continental Kennel Club - started in 1995 - it where puppy mill pups are usually registered. The unsuspecting/uninformed buyer doesn't know the difference between this CKC and AKC.

BTW, this CKC has Maltese in the "Gun Dog" group! :HistericalSmiley:


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

We got our first malt from a pet store (years and years ago before we knew) and he was AKC registered. Lots of bybers will buy dogs this way and say they are AKC and not registered yet. People get around the system lots of different ways just trying to put out there what they think will help them sell.


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## LizziesMom (May 4, 2010)

I didn't know there was another CKC either.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

silverhaven said:


> Truthfully I am not sure what the CKC does, but it doesn't seem too different to me. I haven't really looked into it. It is non profit, does sanction and check shows, very much an advocate of dogs. etc etc. CKC to me is Canadian Kennel Club. Don't know if there is another.


OMG, I should have clarified this. The Canadian Kennel Club is Canada's version of the AKC and a VERY worthy organization in my eyes!!

The CKC that I was referring to is the Continental Kennel Club here in the U.S. Not an ounce of worthiness to them. Another supposed dog registry here in the U.S. that is unworthy is the ACA ... American Canine Association.

I deeply apologize to all of our Canadian friends whose dogs are registered with the CKC in Canada ... the Canadian Kennel Club is a VERY worthy organization.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

maltlovereileen said:


> We got our first malt from a pet store (years and years ago before we knew) and he was AKC registered. Lots of bybers will buy dogs this way and say they are AKC and not registered yet. People get around the system lots of different ways just trying to put out there what they think will help them sell.


AKC has made a lot of changes since that time in how they handle registrations. This is one of the reason for the growth in these other registration "services."


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## LizziesMom (May 4, 2010)

I don't know how often other breeders get audited by AKC, but my dad has been audited three times since he's been in dogs. They come out, check on how the dogs are kept, what kind of shape they are in, how many he has ect. He's always gotten really good scores, except for the first time. He got docked because he wasn't doing a good job with his paper work. It was so funny watching my dad try to figure out how to get organized. He's such an outside guy, that seeing him sitting at the table going through all the paper work was so funny!


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

MaryH said:


> OMG, I should have clarified this. The Canadian Kennel Club is Canada's version of the AKC and a VERY worthy organization in my eyes!!
> 
> The CKC that I was referring to is the Continental Kennel Club here in the U.S. Not an ounce of worthiness to them. Another supposed dog registry here in the U.S. that is unworthy is the ACA ... American Canine Association.
> 
> I deeply apologize to all of our Canadian friends whose dogs are registered with the CKC in Canada ... the Canadian Kennel Club is a VERY worthy organization.


Ahh! thanks for the clarification :thumbsup: I had never heard of the other one so I was very surprised to see your post, but from your manner I felt there must be.


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## Mari B (Oct 29, 2007)

Just my two cents, but when I was researching to get a Maltese - which I decided to hold off on doing, I was really taken aback by the sheer number of puppies available on some of the "top" breeder/show peoples websites. Or if they didn't have just what I wanted, they would tell me about all the breedings they had planned for the future. I'm very turned off by these breeders with constant puppies available, regardless of whether they're testing, showing, etc. Say what you want, there's only a tiny number of dogs that are going into the ring and the rest are to SELL for pets. Just do the math.
So, in addition to finding an ethical breeder who tests and "breeds for the betterment of the breed", you should take note of how many dogs they're producing each year - if you can get a straight answer. Also, insist on getting names and numbers of regular old pet owners to give references - not people showing their dogs, who may very well be breeders themselves. 

I feel your pain and frustration. I have three dogs from "reputable" breeders (non Maltese) that have chronic and/or very serious genetic illnesses that require lifelong treatment and/or that have already had surgeries for the same. A few months after I put my search for a Maltese on hold, we were asked to consider fostering a little rescue (non Maltese), we fell in love and made her a part of our family. Having her has made me feel that rescue will be the only way I get my dogs in the future. It's a crap shoot whether you'll get a dog with health issues, regardless of who you get it from and by going with a rescue, you're giving a second chance to a deserving dog and getting a wonderful companion in the process.

Regards, 
Mari


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Mari B said:


> Just my two cents, but when I was researching to get a Maltese - which I decided to hold off on doing, I was really taken aback by the sheer number of puppies available on some of the "top" breeder/show peoples websites. Or if they didn't have just what I wanted, they would tell me about all the breedings they had planned for the future. I'm very turned off by these breeders with constant puppies available, regardless of whether they're testing, showing, etc. Say what you want, there's only a tiny number of dogs that are going into the ring and the rest are to SELL for pets. Just do the math.
> So, in addition to finding an ethical breeder who tests and "breeds for the betterment of the breed", you should take note of how many dogs they're producing each year - if you can get a straight answer. Also, insist on getting names and numbers of regular old pet owners to give references - not people showing their dogs, who may very well be breeders themselves.
> 
> I feel your pain and frustration. I have three dogs from "reputable" breeders (non Maltese) that have chronic and/or very serious genetic illnesses that require lifelong treatment and/or that have already had surgeries for the same. A few months after I put my search for a Maltese on hold, we were asked to consider fostering a little rescue (non Maltese), we fell in love and made her a part of our family. Having her has made me feel that rescue will be the only way I get my dogs in the future. It's a crap shoot whether you'll get a dog with health issues, regardless of who you get it from and by going with a rescue, you're giving a second chance to a deserving dog and getting a wonderful companion in the process.
> ...


:goodpost: 
I admit I love purebred dogs, particularly Malts, but you are right about getting any breed or mix it is still a living animal that can have a problem. If it is alive, it CAN get sick or injured. Since science has not found the genetic markers for many genetic abnormalities/diseases what can a breeder do about those? They absolutely should refuse to breed an animal who has a known problem or has produced an offspring with a known problem. I can not be more technical with terms, but I think my thinking can be understood without getting nit-picking about words.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Mari B said:


> Having her has made me feel that rescue will be the only way I get my dogs in the future. It's a crap shoot whether you'll get a dog with health issues, regardless of who you get it from and *by going with a rescue, you're giving a second chance to a deserving dog and getting a wonderful companion in the process.*
> 
> Regards,
> Mari


Thank you Mari. 

Love, Jops, Franny, LBB, Raul, Coby, Tommy, and Johnny


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## Luna'sMom (Oct 7, 2007)

vjw said:


> I really don't think show breeders intended to create a genetic mess with their years of inbreeding and closed breed registries, but that's exactly what has been done. We now know that show dogs are at a very high risk of genetic diseases/disorders because of population bottlenecks due to inbreeding, linebreeding, overuse of popular sires, etc.
> 
> I've printed a stack of research papers on canine genetics that's two inches thick. They all say basically the same thing.
> 
> It is my understanding that even some dog insurance companies are now saying that mixed breeds live longer than purebreds.


They aren't at a "very high risk" really. I'm sure that out of the Maltese on this board only a small percentage have genetic diseases - however you hear about it more because they are sad and ask for help. People don't generally post about their dog's health if it's healthy. 

There is actually some research that shows that cross breds are unhealthier than purebreds - crossbreds have low incidences of more genetic diseases whilst purebreds have higher incidences of a few diseases. This means that if purebred breeders use genetic testing and health testing tools your more likely to get a healthy dog from a purebred breeder. Vets are actually seeing huge increases in cross breds with genetic diseases...

There is no research saying that cross breds live longer, that I have read.




dwerten said:


> I agree with this but these videos are very enlightening
> 
> YouTube - Pedigree dogs part 1
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHw2CmDlhCo&feature=related


That is not a documentary - it is extremely biased and the science is shockingly bad. 

If you breed 2 unhealthy dogs together you will get unhealthy puppies. 

However line breeding 2 healthy dogs does not create problems. 

Extensive inbreeding isn't great however it's been done in many other species with no issues - horses, cattle, sheep etc etc. The issue comes when people inbreed or line breed using unhealthy stock/dogs. 

They may be enlightening but please take it with a grain of salt - the person who created them had an obvious agenda. Many of the breeders statements were edited heavily and of course they chose to focus on a few unhealthy dogs within some breeds. My parents have a pug - they are fine if properly bred (she is much more active than their xbred and much healthier). 

I just wanted to state that LP's have a genetic component but can also be caused or worsened by environment i.e. walking up stairs, jumping off sofas/beds. They are so common in small dogs because small dogs have to work harder and are more likely to damage their knees when climbing up stairs or jumping off beds. It's not fair to blame the breeder entirely unless you know she had them when she was younger.


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## lisaj1354 (Aug 9, 2010)

Some time ago, I had the opportunity to get a re-homed dog from a very reputable show breeder that I had met at a number of dog shows.

It was not a Malt.

I took the dog on one condition - that it passed a vets exam. I had every expectation that the dog was healthy. Afterall, her breeder was a champion show breeder.

I got her home and walked he. When she went to poop, the most ungodly noise came out of her mouth. It seems that the breeder hadn't groomed her - and her butt was totally matted and she couldn't poop without pain. I also realized she was totally covered in mats.

So I did an emergency run to Petsmart to have her butt shaved so she could poop without pain.

Then I took her to the vet, who pronounced her "unfit for sale." She was vastly underweight, had multiple bacterial infections, and a vestibular disorder (she was only able to walk in circles.)

Honestly - I loved her the minute I saw her, but was thoroughly unprepared to handle the issues with this dog.

I called a local breed rescue and when I mentioned the breeder I had gotten her from, I was told that he was famous for this kind of behavior - not taking care of his non-show dogs.

I told him that I was returning the dog, and why. I also told him that I had reported him to both his local breed association and to the national breed association.

Right after that, I found a champion show breeder for another breed - one I had grown up with. She was local to me and was about to have a litter. I was incredibly excited, because as it happened, this litter was a direct descendant of the dog I had grown up with. 

I went to her home once the litter came and as beautiful as the puppies were, that was how disgusting her house was. She was a hoarder. Her dogs crates were stacked to the ceiling in her kitchen. The floors were stained, and the place stunk beyond belief. I itched for days after leaving her house. I did not buy a pup from her.

Now I have Pepper. He is a rescued Malt. He is the product of a BYB. He is not breed standard for sure, but easily identifiable as a Malt. He is healthy, happy and is my heart.

Do I hate breeders? No - not at all. But I have learned - the hard way - that not all show breeders are equal.


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## Dogwriter (Jul 3, 2010)

Very interesting thread. Perhaps we need to be educating people about possible genetic diseases in the breed -- and advising them to check on the breeder's followup. In other words, I'll use Corgis since I have been in them forever, say your dog has hip dysplasia. Did he/she do testing on the parents? Did the breeder follow other litters into adult age, to know whether the pups developed it? What other possibly genetic issues have his pups had? If there is one undershot jaw, were there 6? And if so _why did he keep breeding those parents_?

These questions might have more relevance than "he is a show breeder." Show breeding does not equal good health, any more than the old (false) adage "mixed breeds are better because they are healthier."

I know a breeder who is heavy into rescue, keeps her show dogs in crates 23 hours a day, has them debarked, and often produces Corgis with much white on their bodies. This would be like a malt with black and white -- should never happen. But nobody really addresses this; she is held in high regard by many who should know better. I've stood by and watched this literally for years. People who buy her pups are in for big $$$ bills. 

Maybe we should ask breeders for written referrals!

I got Piper from a breeder, drove 2.5 hours one way to get her. Said to the woman, "she has GOT to stay small (because of my hands). 5 pounds is acceptable; 10 pounds, absolutely not." I was assured she would be 3.5 pounds. Today she is 7 months old, and I haven't weighed her in a month but I can tell she is heavier...just said to the hubby last night that I don't know what I'll do if she keeps growing. His answer was you don't have to carry her, just let her sit on your lap. That's not what I wanted when I got her..... not really a health issue but next time I'm going to follow the breeder around for about 2 years before making a purchase.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *vjw*  
_I really don't think show breeders intended to create a genetic mess with their years of inbreeding and closed breed registries, but that's exactly what has been done. We now know that show dogs are at a very high risk of genetic diseases/disorders because of population bottlenecks due to inbreeding, linebreeding, overuse of popular sires, etc. 

I've printed a stack of research papers on canine genetics that's two inches thick. They all say basically the same thing.

It is my understanding that even some dog insurance companies are now saying that mixed breeds live longer than purebreds._

They aren't at a "very high risk" really. I'm sure that out of the Maltese on this board only a small percentage have genetic diseases - however you hear about it more because they are sad and ask for help. People don't generally post about their dog's health if it's healthy. 

There is actually some research that shows that cross breds are unhealthier than purebreds - crossbreds have low incidences of more genetic diseases whilst purebreds have higher incidences of a few diseases. This means that if purebred breeders use genetic testing and health testing tools your more likely to get a healthy dog from a purebred breeder. Vets are actually seeing huge increases in cross breds with genetic diseases...

There is no research saying that cross breds live longer, that I have read.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *dwerten*  
_
I agree with this but these videos are very enlightening 





_

That is not a documentary - it is extremely biased and the science is shockingly bad. 

If you breed 2 unhealthy dogs together you will get unhealthy puppies. 

However line breeding 2 healthy dogs does not create problems. 

Extensive inbreeding isn't great however it's been done in many other species with no issues - horses, cattle, sheep etc etc. The issue comes when people inbreed or line breed using unhealthy stock/dogs. 

They may be enlightening but please take it with a grain of salt - the person who created them had an obvious agenda. Many of the breeders statements were edited heavily and of course they chose to focus on a few unhealthy dogs within some breeds. My parents have a pug - they are fine if properly bred (she is much more active than their xbred and much healthier). 

I just wanted to state that LP's have a genetic component but can also be caused or worsened by environment i.e. walking up stairs, jumping off sofas/beds. They are so common in small dogs because small dogs have to work harder and are more likely to damage their knees when climbing up stairs or jumping off beds. It's not fair to blame the breeder entirely unless you know she had them when she was younger. 
__________________
*Kylie and Luna*


Great post, thank you for adding it.


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

For the life of me, I cannot understand how these dogs from show breeders are never potty trained? I mean, you get a 5 year old retiree and it's never been potty trained??? wow. So they really care about 'the betterment of the breed' so much as to never even potty train a dog? Incredible.

Also the keeping of these dogs in crates all of their lives (and not being trained)? Sounds very tragic.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

iheartbisou said:


> For the life of me, I cannot understand how these dogs from show breeders are never potty trained? I mean, you get a 5 year old retiree and it's never been potty trained??? wow. So they really care about 'the betterment of the breed' so much as to never even potty train a dog? Incredible.
> 
> Also the keeping of these dogs in crates all of their lives (and not being trained)? Sounds very tragic.


It was potty trained for how the breeder wanted the dog trained. The dog is taken from its known home and known potty habits and goes into someone's home and is expected to know what those expectations are? Any animal needs time to learn what the new rules are. A dog that has been trained to go outside with a doggy door gets moved into a house without a doggy door now has to learn to "ask" to go out to potty. It has to learn this new behavior. Before they could just go outside when they needed to without bothering anyone. 
Everyone has their idea of what they consider "potty trained". Animals do regress and need to be reminded of the rules. I am constantly reminding mine what the rules are. I have girls and boys and when season's come around they get sneaky and try to mark. To them they are advertising, :innocent: to me they are peeing where they are not suppose to. :blink:
It's frustrating for breeder's too when they have difficulty getting a dog trained and then it does what it wants to.
Jackie has that article she posted a few days ago, it is really good and gives a good explanation of what the dog might be thinking. 
Don't judge too harshly. Every Maltese is different. Every Maltese learns differently. 
JMO


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Tina said:


> It was potty trained for how the breeder wanted the dog trained. The dog is taken from its known home and known potty habits and goes into someone's home and is expected to know what those expectations are? Any animal needs time to learn what the new rules are. A dog that has been trained to go outside with a doggy door gets moved into a house without a doggy door now has to learn to "ask" to go out to potty. It has to learn this new behavior. Before they could just go outside when they needed to without bothering anyone.
> Everyone has their idea of what they consider "potty trained". Animals do regress and need to be reminded of the rules. I am constantly reminding mine what the rules are. I have girls and boys and when season's come around they get sneaky and try to mark. To them they are advertising, :innocent: to me they are peeing where they are not suppose to. :blink:
> It's frustrating for breeder's too when they have difficulty getting a dog trained and then it does what it wants to.
> Jackie has that article she posted a few days ago, it is really good and gives a good explanation of what the dog might be thinking.
> ...


 

:goodpost:

I'm just not sure which article that your talking about that Jackie posted a few days ago.


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## LizziesMom (May 4, 2010)

Tina said:


> It was potty trained for how the breeder wanted the dog trained. The dog is taken from its known home and known potty habits and goes into someone's home and is expected to know what those expectations are? Any animal needs time to learn what the new rules are. A dog that has been trained to go outside with a doggy door gets moved into a house without a doggy door now has to learn to "ask" to go out to potty. It has to learn this new behavior. Before they could just go outside when they needed to without bothering anyone.
> Everyone has their idea of what they consider "potty trained". Animals do regress and need to be reminded of the rules. I am constantly reminding mine what the rules are. I have girls and boys and when season's come around they get sneaky and try to mark. To them they are advertising, :innocent: to me they are peeing where they are not suppose to. :blink:
> It's frustrating for breeder's too when they have difficulty getting a dog trained and then it does what it wants to.
> Jackie has that article she posted a few days ago, it is really good and gives a good explanation of what the dog might be thinking.
> ...


This is true of any dog going to a new home. Even rescues that have lived in foster homes have to be retrained when they go to a new home. When placing greyhounds, I always told the new owners to be sure and give the dog a little time to acclimate itself to its new home, this means pacing, whinning and potty training. They are usually easier to potty train, since they already have the idea down, they just have to learn the rules of the new home.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

This article: House Training Puppies & Dogs. Easy Steps to Potty Training


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## Luna'sMom (Oct 7, 2007)

Tina said:


> It was potty trained for how the breeder wanted the dog trained. The dog is taken from its known home and known potty habits and goes into someone's home and is expected to know what those expectations are? Any animal needs time to learn what the new rules are. A dog that has been trained to go outside with a doggy door gets moved into a house without a doggy door now has to learn to "ask" to go out to potty. It has to learn this new behavior. Before they could just go outside when they needed to without bothering anyone.
> Everyone has their idea of what they consider "potty trained". Animals do regress and need to be reminded of the rules. I am constantly reminding mine what the rules are. I have girls and boys and when season's come around they get sneaky and try to mark. To them they are advertising, :innocent: to me they are peeing where they are not suppose to. :blink:
> It's frustrating for breeder's too when they have difficulty getting a dog trained and then it does what it wants to.
> Jackie has that article she posted a few days ago, it is really good and gives a good explanation of what the dog might be thinking.
> ...


:goodpost: I never had an appreciation for this until I moved house and had to retrain Luna - she went from having access to pee-pads in an apartment all day to having to hold on and wait to go outside at certain times (as I live in a house now with no doggy door and an indoor only cat). First few weeks was rough - she didn't get it- however now she is very trustworthy (unless it's raining). She knows that she go's potty after meals and when I get home from work and she tries her best to hold on until then :thumbsup:

Remember that everyone has their own household rules and routines - the way one person trains their dog isn't the way others would i.e. what if the breeder trains to pee-pads (and has all wood floors) if the pop/dog moves to a house where it is expected to go outside only and has carpet (which looks and feels like pee-pads) it would take awhile for the dog to learn!


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Good points here.
Yes, tragic is the appropriate word for keeping these dogs in cages. I hope this is not the norm for most breeders. 
I hope that these dogs have some time to run and play, and are given love and affection.
We can only hope...



iheartbisou said:


> For the life of me, I cannot understand how these dogs from show breeders are never potty trained? I mean, you get a 5 year old retiree and it's never been potty trained??? wow. So they really care about 'the betterment of the breed' so much as to never even potty train a dog? Incredible.
> 
> Also the keeping of these dogs in crates all of their lives (and not being trained)? Sounds very tragic.


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## lisaj1354 (Aug 9, 2010)

> For the life of me, I cannot understand how these dogs from show breeders are never potty trained? I mean, you get a 5 year old retiree and it's never been potty trained??? wow. So they really care about 'the betterment of the breed' so much as to never even potty train a dog? Incredible.
> 
> Also the keeping of these dogs in crates all of their lives (and not being trained)? Sounds very tragic.


My experience when speaking with breeders (*all *of whom I met at dog shows while showing their dogs) is that all but one did not potty trained their dogs.

They all had "dog rooms" with crates stacked up for their dogs, who were allowed to pee and poop on the floor in the "dog room" or were let out into a fenced area to do their business.

Not one had trained their dogs to use pee pads or had house trained their dogs. In fact, very few even allowed their dogs in the house for any period of time. None of the "pet quality" dogs had been trained to a leash.

When I asked about having them pee pad, house train or leash train train a potential pup (or retired adult), I was told "I don't do that."


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

lisaj1354 said:


> My experience when speaking with breeders (*all *of whom I met at dog shows while showing their dogs) is that all but one did not potty trained their dogs.
> 
> They all had "dog rooms" with crates stacked up for their dogs, who were allowed to pee and poop on the floor in the "dog room" or were let out into a fenced area to do their business.
> 
> ...


 







In a word - SHOCKING!


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

lisaj1354 said:


> My experience when speaking with breeders (*all *of whom I met at dog shows while showing their dogs) is that all but one did not potty trained their dogs.
> 
> They all had "dog rooms" with crates stacked up for their dogs, who were allowed to pee and poop on the floor in the "dog room" or were let out into a fenced area to do their business.
> 
> ...


whoa..this is shocking to me! Or maybe I have been living under a rock!

Mia's breeder trained her on the pish pad and a leash AND to be still while grooming. The only thing I had to do was re train her to go on the disposable pads bc I ended up not using pish pads, but thats my doing. I was super thankful that they trained her to walk on a leash and the grooming...made my life soo much easier!

Gemma's breeder did housebreak her but Gemma was used to going outside..so I also had to train her to go on a pad. However, her breeder did not train her to walk on a leash and it is a lot of work! Made me appreciate Mia's breeder even more. 

I respect everyone opinions on show breeders. Sometime these discussion get heated and personal. I know because I often felt like Mia's breeder was under attack (lol) but since then, the spotlight seemed to have moved on...:blush::innocent:

But, reading these posts made me realize that not all show breeders are equal, as someone mentioned, and I feel grateful to have had Mia's breeder.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Luna'sMom said:


> They aren't at a "very high risk" really. I'm sure that out of the Maltese on this board only a small percentage have genetic diseases - however you hear about it more because they are sad and ask for help. People don't generally post about their dog's health if it's healthy.
> 
> There is actually some research that shows that cross breds are unhealthier than purebreds - crossbreds have low incidences of more genetic diseases whilst purebreds have higher incidences of a few diseases. This means that if purebred breeders use genetic testing and health testing tools your more likely to get a healthy dog from a purebred breeder. Vets are actually seeing huge increases in cross breds with genetic diseases...
> 
> ...


interesting as a couple vets told me if you want a healthy dog get a mutt LOL. They said many times these purebred dogs have health issues due to inbreeding. The first comment from my vet on my dog with alot of health issues due to poor immune system was A LITTLE INBREEDING HERE on her AKC papers and breeder did tell me she was an accident so maybe that is what she was referring to and made her limited AKC. 

Also when I looked into pet insurance it was more expensive for purebred dogs and they also went by akc list of predisposed conditions and vet medical journal so they did not have to cover these things so do they know that purebred dogs are more unhealthy than mutts and why they charge more and do not cover all conditions? 

I love my purebreds but having 4 - one rescue who is pretty healthy but I found out who breeder was and it is a good breeder, one from a pet store puppy mill dog who had some health issues and is ckc, two from backyard breeders but are AKC and one with alot of health issues I have learned a ton on health issues in pets. I was one of those pet owners that did not do their homework before getting a dog and why I am so passionate about it now having been through so much for not doing that homework. 

I just think there is a reason as humans we do not inbreed as we would have a genetic mess on our hands so I do not think it is too far fetched to think the same thing can happen with dogs. 

I know there are no health guarantees with humans or dogs but we should at least try to have the best possible outcome we can by responsibly breeding. 

Having dealt with health issues and helping alot of other pet owners with unhealthy dogs it is very heart breaking to see them go through the emotional aspect of it as well as the financial aspect of it as I have been there myself. My dogs are family to me so returning them back was not an option to me but I had no clue what I was getting myself into when getting dogs and what the cost of health care and the emotional hurt it is when they get sick. I think many people are the same when getting their first dog and why I always try to help people. 

It is true people do talk about unhealthy dogs more than healthy but what I saw with the Yorkie breed is the amount of people talking about it was over whelming on a daily basis. I know my 3 yorks have more health issues than my maltese and yorks are always in the top 3 breeds every year so I think they are over bred to keep up with the demand and alot of backyard breeding with people who do not care what they are producing and then you add in uneducated pet owners like I was and you have a recipe for disaster. 

I do not know alot about the show world or breeding but I do know alot about the health aspect having gone through alot with mine and again it is very expensive for vet care and very emotional. I believe alot of dogs are in rescue due to poor breeding as well as people cannot afford the vet care and they love their dogs so they try to get them to a place that can care for them or they just drop them off at the pound so they do not have to deal with it and let someone else take care of it. 

I do understand about cross breeding one breed with another like the hybreds for example the Morkie. The risk with that is that you take the genetic chance of getting the worst of both breeds in one dog and probably what vets are seeing with this situation. Some feel they are trying to get the best of both breeds but the flip side is the worst of both breeds could happen. 

In all this the one thing I have learned is there are no guarantees but just like in humans we do not inbreed and I think with dogs we owe it to them to at least try to get the best outcome we can with being responsible since they have no say in the matter and the rest is out of our control. 

In regards to the video - even if edited enough of what was said by some of those show people was all I needed to hear. Finding vets to kill dogs that are less than perfect, etc. I think there is alot more out there that is not exposed with this and to me all it takes is one dog to suffer like this from someone who knew better and did not care enough to do the right thing and looked only at winning or at money and all moral responsibility went out the window. 

I think it is great to be passionate about things like showing and breeding if your intentions are good but never at the detriment of a dog or future dogs health.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't know how anyone else feels, but I think the topic breeding/line breeding may be better discussed under Maltese Health, and perhaps those that can provide actual insight.

To have it under this thread, and no offense at all to the OP, but it's a generalization of an entire group, which I am sure does not in anyway depict the entire group.

It would be like starting a thread are pet people responsible? Now that is something we all can relate to. Within that group, you have pet people who love our babies as much as we all do, give them the proper care and love, and treated as the special ones that they are, and also sadly, within that group, there are those who do not do these things.

I just add my thoughts because I think the last thing we want to do, is shine a bad light on ALL show breeders and newbies seeing this, or anyone seeing this, sadly, may go and support a byb or worse a petstore. 

I know I've said this before, but will say it again, without the Ethical show breeders, there would not be true Maltese bred to the standard. They would not exsist. How sad would that be.

Just my thoughts.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

allheart said:


> I don't know how anyone else feels, but I think the topic breeding/line breeding may be better discussed under Maltese Health, and perhaps those that can provide actual insight.
> 
> To have it under this thread, and no offense at all to the OP, but it's a generalization of an entire group, which I am sure does not in anyway depict the entire group.
> 
> ...


Christine, :you rock::goodpost::ThankYou:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

allheart said:


> I don't know how anyone else feels, but I think the topic breeding/line breeding may be better discussed under Maltese Health, and perhaps those that can provide actual insight.
> 
> To have it under this thread, and no offense at all to the OP, but it's a generalization of an entire group, which I am sure does not in anyway depict the entire group.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: I'm going to ask Jung to close this thread. It's time.


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