# Malts and other small breeds from Korea



## zooeysmom

I see that it has become very popular here on SM for people to buy dogs from Korea. This is extremely concerning to me because Korea has horrible puppy mills, just like the U.S. Unless you travel there and inspect where your dog came from, you have no idea what the dog's living conditions are. Now I know there are "reputable" breeders like Shinemore. However, they allow their puppies to be shipped in cargo, which I believe is cruel. I had a puppy shipped two years ago and he was fried just traveling domestically in cargo. I would NEVER do that again! Also, Korean breeders often use trick photography to make their puppies look more "extreme" in the eyes and short muzzle. You can get just as cute a puppy from an American breeder. 

How does everyone else feel about this trend? And no, I'm not jealous of those with Korean Malts, as has been an argument between some other people. I could easily afford any pet Malt puppy from any breeder here or Korea.


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## silverhaven

I think anyone on here buying a pup would do enough research to make sure the breeder was reputable. I see nothing wrong with it as long as the pup was hand delivered and not cargo shipped. Some of the breeders seem to enhance the images, and that is quite obvious. I think we know to ask for unretouched and different views. Frankly even in the states you don't always get what you think you are going to get, even from reputable breeders. I don't see how this is any different.


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## Sylie

I am ambivalent. Actually, I think the cost is less, even with transport, than buying a high quality Malt here. I have heard that the Korean airlines take very good care of the pets being transported, but it is a long, long flight. To be honest, I have actually considered getting a Shinemore pup....but I am not going to get another dog, ..but I am not going to get another dog, ..but I am not going to get another dog, ..but I am not going to get another dog...so. Still, Kimmy is so beautiful...I swoon over her. But, then Emma is just as swoon worthy. I remain ambivalent.


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## Ann Mother

I think there are enough good breeders here. We need to support them as such. If you go to Korea to only save money? You get what you pay for. Seems as if there also more maltese out there below the standard desired weight which is just as bad as being over standard weight. Little is cute but not without lots of health issues. I got my dog from an AKC Register of Merit Breeder. He was only going to be a pet due to undescended testicles. But I've finished a dog before and really only wanted a pet. This forum does give me pet fever.


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## pammy4501

I do not believe people purchase dogs from Korea to save money. The shipping alone would cancel out any possible savings that could have been had. There are a few known breeders in Korea that are reputable, but some are high volume (as is true with certain US breeders). 

No, I think people go for Korean dogs for that certain look. It's the extreme wide set eyes that are large in size, ultra short muzzle and extra small size. It's a risky business. The more we stray away from the standard for any breed, the more we put that breed at risk. It's not breeding for the health and temperament of the dog, or the betterment of the breed. But this isn't a new message. Many have said it before. This shift is nothing new. SM has always had members that feel differently and do not see the wisdom in purchasing dogs from breeders that breed to standard. 

I have actually heard it said here on SM that if you want a certain look and can pay for it, whose business is it anyway? But I do know what you mean. Just don't know what the heck you can do about it. I just always hope the dogs will be healthy and well adjusted. Give me a sweet maltese with a great temperament any day...wait... I have three of them!


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## edelweiss

pammy4501 said:


> Give me a sweet maltese with a great temperament any day...wait... I have three of them!


:HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley:


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## edelweiss

This is a highly debatable topic and sometimes emotionally charged. I for one looked into all the possibilities of getting a dog from Korea when I was looking for Kitzel. I had many conversations w/the people at Shinemore. In the end I could not bring myself to subjecting my puppy to the long haul trip (I am not judging those who choose to do otherwise). I did get a pup in Europe who was half Shinemore (half American line MaltAngel) by a reputable breeder. I was going more for a specific look. I am happy w/both character & looks. 

Where I often come into more conflict personally, is with the issue of saying "if you can't afford to keep a malt to the highest standard, with the best medical care, the best food, the best . . . yada yada, yada, then one should not own one. It is my own personal opinion that we put far too much emphasis on the exclusivity of owning a maltese than is necessary. I am bothered by that attitude deeply. I cringe when people say RC is not a good food for example---or Eukanuba---as though dogs can only thrive on the high end foods. Those foods can be used for specific purposes with great success, esp. when combined w/other foods or supplements. It seems we often throw out the "baby with the bath" when we speak authoritatively on such issues. 
Maybe where we get our pups and how we nurture them is not an either/or situation. As Sylie says "just my never humble opinion."


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## revakb2

I'm one those that always prefers to buy American if possible. With so many wonderful breeders and beautiful dogs here, I see no reason to look elsewhere. When I get another Maltese, it will born in the USA.


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## zooeysmom

GREAT discussion--I'm enjoying reading your thoughtful replies! 

Have any of you seen this? https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.211891568889541.53191.206568856088479&type=3


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## Sylie

zooeysmom said:


> GREAT discussion--I'm enjoying reading your thoughtful replies!
> 
> Have any of you seen this? https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.211891568889541.53191.206568856088479&type=3


I didn't see exactly that before, but I have seen ads and websites that feature those weird puppies. They look freakish to me. 

I think if you are going for a Korean bred dog, it is as important to be sure the breeder is reputable, even more important. There is a website for a person in Arizona who sells "teacups" with eyes that look they are about to pop out of their heads. 

I agree with Pammy, that going for an extreme look that is currently popular can ruin a breed. On the other hand, Maltese look very different today than they did in the 1950s. I think the keyword is "extreme."


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## shellbeme

Some day when we get another malt (which I don't think will be for 12-15ish years), I would love a shinemore pup. Yes I am hesitant because of the flight. Will I get a dog from out of the country? Probably not, but I might look more into it when the time comes.

I think we should try to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.. UNLESS that does involve promoting puppymills. I had never given much thought to watching for puppy mills outside the united states so thank you for bringing that to our attention.

When it comes down to it, buying from a reputable breeder is very expensive. I would hope anyone putting this kind of money down on a dog would be purchasing from someone they admire and respect who has their dogs best interest at heart no matter where they are from.


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## silverhaven

zooeysmom said:


> GREAT discussion--I'm enjoying reading your thoughtful replies!
> 
> Have any of you seen this? https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.211891568889541.53191.206568856088479&type=3


We have several of those horrible brokers here in Vancouver. Obviously a terrible thing that needs to be shut down. But you mentioned people on here buying from reputable show breeders, I don't think they should be lumped together in the same thread.


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## elly

What I am really struggling with is how can a "reputable breeder" breed so far off standard. I believe the standard for a Shih Tzu 9-16 pounds.


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## pammy4501

silverhaven said:


> We have several of those horrible brokers here in Vancouver. Obviously a terrible thing that needs to be shut down. But you mentioned people on here buying from reputable show breeders, I don't think they should be lumped together in the same thread.


I think the problem is that unless you can go see the operation (and that includes here as well as foreign), you don't know what it is. There are "reputable" breeders that are so high volume that, while they not be a puppy mill, you still probably would not chose a puppy from that situation. And we have had members here that have gotten dogs from these type of operations and have had very big problems. Dogs coming less then health, and with horrible socialization. Not a happy playful sweet puppy, but a frightened snarling creature that takes much work to correct to livable behavior. 

As for the site that was shared, that exists for one reason only. Demand. They are supplying that demand. It's not going away as long as people want dogs as accessories and not companions that they train and love. If all you want is a dog to carry around in a purse and then will disgard when they figure out theres so much more too dog ownership, or god forbid that poorly bred tiny creature has serious health issues. They will spend thousands to get the 'right look' but rarely will be interested in spending thousands to vet a dog with liver shunt or neuro issues. It's a pathetic situation.


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## The A Team

Ah, I was waiting for this thread to start. :HistericalSmiley:

Personally I wasn't looking for a dog from Korea....it's a long story how this came to be, and I will keep this to myself. But I literally didn't know I was getting her until two days before she got here. 

I have no problem with people getting a pup from where ever they want. ....except a mill or greeder that is. 

And just to make sure I've made myself clear....I won't be mean or judging anyone here at all.....and I expect the same in return. 

Thank you. B)


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## Fluffdoll

The A Team said:


> Ah, I was waiting for this thread to start. :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> Personally I wasn't looking for a dog from Korea....it's a long story how this came to be, and I will keep this to myself. But I literally didn't know I was getting her until two days before she got here.
> 
> I have no problem with people getting a pup from where ever they want. ....except a mill or greeder that is.
> 
> And just to make sure I've made myself clear....I won't be mean or judging anyone here at all.....and I expect the same in return.
> 
> Thank you. B)


:goodpost: :aktion033:


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## shellbeme

The A Team said:


> Ah, I was waiting for this thread to start. :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> Personally I wasn't looking for a dog from Korea....it's a long story how this came to be, and I will keep this to myself. But I literally didn't know I was getting her until two days before she got here.
> 
> I have no problem with people getting a pup from where ever they want. ....except a mill or greeder that is.
> 
> And just to make sure I've made myself clear....I won't be mean or judging anyone here at all.....and I expect the same in return.
> 
> Thank you. B)


:goodpost:


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## BJR

:amen::goodpost::aktion033:


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## hoaloha

I think it's absolutely fine to discuss topics like this on the forum. There are legitimate concerns and I feel that this particular thread is bringing a topic to light from an important perspective. Personally, I could communicate with and even fly to S. Korea for a "Korean" dog but I specifically choose to support US breeders who I can have an easy, fairly local relationship with. Not everyone's priorities are the same and to each her own. Keep in kind that some members here don't live in the US so options are very different. There are good and bad show breeders everywhere- it's hard to know when you can't visit them when so far away. We should think about getting rescue dogs from Korea- there are SO many Maltese and many are just adorable 

As for exclusivity of Maltese that Sandi mentioned, I agree that everyone does what they can with what they've got... You feed what you can afford, etc... But, I strongly feel that no matter what breed you get, you better plan to take care of basic medical needs and emergencies or you should rethink getting that pet in the first place. Of course, unfortunate economic circumstances arise, but that's a different situation. This is not exclusive to Maltese. It's just part of being a responsible human being.


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## zooeysmom

Great post, Marisa! :aktion033:


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## ckanen2n

The A Team said:


> Ah, I was waiting for this thread to start. :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> Personally I wasn't looking for a dog from Korea....it's a long story how this came to be, and I will keep this to myself. But I literally didn't know I was getting her until two days before she got here.
> 
> I have no problem with people getting a pup from where ever they want. ....except a mill or greeder that is.
> 
> And just to make sure I've made myself clear....I won't be mean or judging anyone here at all.....and I expect the same in return.
> 
> Thank you. B)


I was hoping this thread was not aimed at you Pat! I am curious to know more about your Imperial! You are a well respected member here and a good friend to all! :thumbsup:

All breeds have been developed according to a collective preference of features to create the breed specific standard. American breeders often go outside the US in an attempt to bring certain features into their line. This is how I came to get Manny - he is out of one of Mary Ann's girls bred to a Korean import owned by Denise Jahn. 

Manny's breeder (Petite) is an AMA officer and overseas the committee on Maltese health, so she does care about breeding to the standard. Manny is a gorgeous male and no health problems at all. He weigh about 4 1/4, well within the Standard, with a gorgeous flowing silky coat, darling face with shorter nose (but I think Gio's nose is shorter!) and a wonderful gate! Not as icy white as I would have preferred, but definitely show quality! I decide not to show him and gave him a shorter haircut , which has exposed just what a wonderful dog he really is! :wub:

So, yes, I think we all agree that we love this breed and want to protect the integrity of the standard. However, complacency in any breeding program is surely to become the kiss of death!

So as with any purchase, but especially regarding a fluff who will be a member of you family for many years, we all need to research and make informed decisions when we purchase a fluff! I know none of us on here want to support unethical breeding or puppy mills! :aktion033:


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## 4furkidsmom

I personally would not get a puppy from Korea. Korea has an awful record of its treatment of dogs in general, and the fact that they inhumanely slaughter dogs for human consumption is intolerable to me.


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## Charlie'sMom

Please let me start with saying I do not wish to get into the middle of anything, or in trouble with anybody....
I think this is a free country and everybody's entitled to their own opinion as far as it's expressed respectfully and not meant to hurt anybody.

I love US Maltese puppies, I love Korean Maltese puppies, ....heck I LOVE ALL Maltese puppies and I would lie, if I wrote, that I would never consider a puppy from a reputable breeder from outside of US. 
I myself was born in Europe, so I'm a bit of outsider too, I guess...:HistericalSmiley:...

I just wanted to say, that I do understand, when some people get the puppy from outside of US just because of the price. 
This happens a lot, when buyers seek a special look, that truly is expensive here in States. We all have to admit, that even though U.S has a LOT of fantastic and experienced breeders, some of the prices for puppies are simply out of reach for a regular person....I'm talking about the pet quality puppies, that go for $6000 - $10.000 (yes, there is a breeder, who will openly say the price range on their website and yes, I saw it with my own eyes) and waiting lists over a year long.
I'm sorry, but that is in my opinion a really high price in this economy :blush:, so if there's a possibility to get the same looking puppy from a good breeder outside of US, of course there will be a lot of buyers, who will prefer that option.
I'm not talking about those weird and questionable breeders, who advertise those sickly tiny puppies with huge eyes, but truly honest breeders with a good history.

We got our Charlie from a small local but reputable breeder, so my baby is a good ol' American boy, lol. (just for the general info)

Maybe some will roll their eyes reading my post thinking, why would somebody with money issues want a nice Maltese puppy, so please let me clarify I do not have any problems with money and I'm ready to spend whatever it takes to ensure my baby's health and well-being. It's just hard to justify spending a ten grand on a puppy, when people are losing their homes .

Ok, my rant is over.....I LOVE YOU ALL and PEACE :yield:


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## StevieB

I don't have a problem with people choosing to get a dog from Korea, and it seems they arrive to their destination just fine. But I also believe that the "Korean" look most people associate with Korean dogs are the photos of the puppies we see online, and I do believe the majority of those photos are enhanced. So I would just hope before agreeing to purchase and having a puppy shipped to you you would have been sent some true representation photos of the puppy, unretouched, so you can really know what you're getting. Because I would assume if you're buying a dog from Korea it is because you desire a certain look as you have no idea what the personality is going to be like (I'm assuming if personality was the main concern you would need to meet the dog in person to know if it's a good fit). I honestly can't tell a Korean maltese from an American when I see the everyday snapshots that are posted. But from what I can tell everyone who's gotten a dog from Korea has been very happy with it which says something. So to each his own as long as it's from a reputable breeder, I just truly hope people get exactly what they are wanting when they go that route.


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## Orla

elly said:


> What I am really struggling with is how can a "reputable breeder" breed so far off standard. I believe the standard for a Shih Tzu 9-16 pounds.


This is what I don't understand. Surely these tiny shih tzu's are not being bred to be shown, so what is the point? This isn't breeding to better a breed :blink:


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## kilodzul

Just popping in for a second... as some people here know, I personally do not like extreme looks in dogs, so Korean look is not tempting for me. That being said...
I don't think it's "very popular" to import dogs from Korea on this forum. It was done by 3 members, if I remember correctly, 4 if we count Pat who very clearly stated that it was not her goal, just coincidence. While I agree that tiny dogs have more POSSIBLE health risks, I'm sure that all members who decided on having tiny puppy have taken this into consideration. So far, I don't think anyone who has Korean pup has complained about health issues and I hope it will remain that way.
I completely understand why Korean pups are so desirable and I don't judge anyone because of their personal aesthetic preference. However, I think it's worth discussing:
1. IF characteristic features of Korean Malts can affect their health i.e. shorter muzzle can cause more issues with teeth? Because IF it's true, than it's breeding for the look that is damaging for dogs is not responsible.
2. I notice a bit of double standard here - one of main arguments against BYB (not even talking about puppy mills), even those who provide their dogs good care, is that they're not breeding to fit the standard, but those Korean pups are off the standard as well. I don't even know what standard should be followed in Korea?

So, I think as long as those dogs are healthy, with sound temperaments, come from trusted breeders, there's nothing wrong with owning one. But I still feel that discussing this, trying to see what it can cause for the future of the breed, it still fine and shouldn't be silenced.


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## Matilda's mommy

I think the maltese breed is outstanding, not only in their looks but also their personalities, we are all different, some might love the Korean look, personally I'm in love with little Kimmy:wub: would I buy a Korean dog well probably not, because it just seems to be a lot of hassle for me, but if I were offered one like Pat was well you bet I'd jump at the chance to buy one
When we decided weather to get another dog I will be looking at one that is from the USA, we have so many wonderful breeders here, and if you needed to contact them it seems to me it would be a lot easier then trying to contact the breeder in Korea.
I think all our babies are beautiful and we are so blessed to have them in our lives.


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## Sylie

Matilda's mommy said:


> I think the maltese breed is outstanding, not only in their looks but also their personalities, we are all different, some might love the Korean look, personally I'm in love with little Kimmy:wub: would I buy a Korean dog well probably not, because it just seems to be a lot of hassle for me, but if I were offered one like Pat was well you bet I'd jump at the chance to buy one
> When we decided weather to get another dog I will be looking at one that is from the USA, we have so many wonderful breeders here, and if you needed to contact them it seems to me it would be a lot easier then trying to contact the breeder in Korea.
> I think all our babies are beautiful and we are so blessed to have them in our lives.


I agree. you go with your heart.sometimes your dog finds you. Please, don't think that this thread is in any way condemning you, Pat. We all do the best we know how to, then sometimes we learn that the best we knew was not good. But, every pup who finds a loving home is set...no mater what we might deliberate one way or another. Pup + loving home = happiness. I think this thread started to simply consider the possibilities.
We who have been here long enough have seen gorgeous fluff babies come from Korean breeders. I think we just need to avoid the nasty brokers. Whether you like a Korean breeder, or an American breeder, or if you are in an other country...the rule remains the same: go to a breeder you can trust.


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## Charlie'sMom

Sylie said:


> I agree. you go with your heart.sometimes your dog finds you. Please, don't think that this thread is in any way condemning you, Pat. We all do the best we know how to, then sometimes we learn that the best we knew was not good. But, every pup who finds a loving home is set...no mater what we might deliberate one way or another. Pup + loving home = happiness. I think this thread started to simply consider the possibilities.
> We who have been here long enough have seen gorgeous fluff babies come from Korean breeders. I think we just need to avoid the nasty brokers. Whether you like a Korean breeder, or an American breeder, or if you are in an other country...the rule remains the same: go to a breeder you can trust.


I wholeheartedly agree with Sylvia - let the heart to pick up the right dog.
That's exactly what happened with our Charlie. I was decided to get a female, so I would have a "pink girl" to dress up and do those adorable piggy tails....
We already put a deposit on a cute female baby....she was a really gorgeous girl, but then I saw that tiny funky looking boy with one pinky eye, who wiggled towards me, licked my hand and looked deeply into my eyes...and I was lost, lol...that day we walked home with our Charlie and I completely forgot about those pinky dresses I had prepared at home :blush:...


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## BJR

This precious baby has a loving mom and family. Isn't that the most important thing?


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## edelweiss

I think one of the key issues just brought up here by Julie is that of communication and trust. When Kitzel started to have issues around 7 months I searched both sides of the line to see what it might be & tried to communicate w/Shinemore. When I was considering a purchase with Korea communication was not an issue, but it suddenly became one when I contacted in regard to health issues. I was offered by Shinemore's "representative in the states" that she could contact Shinemore for me but that made no sense to me since she spoke no Korean either and English had not been an issue before. I got the "feeling" that someone just wanted me out of their hair. Kitzel's LPs were not nearly as bad as his limp so I was researching what it might be genetically. I have to say that the Maltangel side was very communicative & forth-coming and keeps a genetic data base of any potential problems. While this may also be true w/Shinemore, I was not given info that this is so w/the Korean side. I am only speaking here from MY own personal experience, but it cannot easily be disregarded. 
I did discover some issue w/one other dog which was exported from this line with similar problems. Coincidence? Perhaps. Nothing can be empirically proven.
I am not saying here that Kitzi's issue is the fault of Shinemore. I am saying that communication was a huge issue & I felt stonewalled. So if the willingness to communicate is an issue to be considered then it makes logical sense that buying state side has advantages.
In defense of my breeder who imported from Korea she has been thoroughly open, caring, honest, forth coming & handled w/complete integrity, and her English is not exactly "top-dog" but she works hard to communicate in a way that others did not. Again, this is just my experience and I know that other's have been more positive. I am happy:thumbsup: for them.


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## zooeysmom

BJR said:


> This precious baby has a loving mom and family. Isn't that the most important thing?


 I don't know which baby you are talking about, as I was not talking about any one in particular. But no, that's not the most important thing. Stopping the perpetual cycle of abuse (i.e., puppy mills) is the most important thing, here and abroad.


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## Ann Mother

Charlie'sMom said:


> Please let me start with saying I do not wish to get into the middle of anything, or in trouble with anybody....
> I think this is a free country and everybody's entitled to their own opinion as far as it's expressed respectfully and not meant to hurt anybody.
> 
> I love US Maltese puppies, I love Korean Maltese puppies, ....heck I LOVE ALL Maltese puppies and I would lie, if I wrote, that I would never consider a puppy from a reputable breeder from outside of US.
> I myself was born in Europe, so I'm a bit of outsider too, I guess...:HistericalSmiley:...
> 
> I just wanted to say, that I do understand, when some people get the puppy from outside of US just because of the price.
> This happens a lot, when buyers seek a special look, that truly is expensive here in States. We all have to admit, that even though U.S has a LOT of fantastic and experienced breeders, some of the prices for puppies are simply out of reach for a regular person....I'm talking about the pet quality puppies, that go for $6000 - $10.000 (yes, there is a breeder, who will openly say the price range on their website and yes, I saw it with my own eyes) and waiting lists over a year long.
> I'm sorry, but that is in my opinion a really high price in this economy :blush:, so if there's a possibility to get the same looking puppy from a good breeder outside of US, of course there will be a lot of buyers, who will prefer that option.
> I'm not talking about those weird and questionable breeders, who advertise those sickly tiny puppies with huge eyes, but truly honest breeders with a good history.
> 
> We got our Charlie from a small local but reputable breeder, so my baby is a good ol' American boy, lol. (just for the general info)
> 
> Maybe some will roll their eyes reading my post thinking, why would somebody with money issues want a nice Maltese puppy, so please let me clarify I do not have any problems with money and I'm ready to spend whatever it takes to ensure my baby's health and well-being. It's just hard to justify spending a ten grand on a puppy, when people are losing their homes .
> 
> Ok, my rant is over.....I LOVE YOU ALL and PEACE :yield:






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## Ann Mother

Oops meant to put good post


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## Ann Mother

edelweiss said:


> I think one of the key issues just brought up here by Julie is that of communication and trust. When Kitzel started to have issues around 7 months I searched both sides of the line to see what it might be & tried to communicate w/Shinemore. When I was considering a purchase with Korea communication was not an issue, but it suddenly became one when I contacted in regard to health issues. I was offered by Shinemore's "representative in the states" that she could contact Shinemore for me but that made no sense to me since she spoke no Korean either and English had not been an issue before. I got the "feeling" that someone just wanted me out of their hair. Kitzel's LPs were not nearly as bad as his limp so I was researching what it might be genetically. I have to say that the Maltangel side was very communicative & forth-coming and keeps a genetic data base of any potential problems. While this may also be true w/Shinemore, I was not given info that this is so w/the Korean side. I am only speaking here from MY own personal experience, but it cannot easily be disregarded.
> 
> I did discover some issue w/one other dog which was exported from this line with similar problems. Coincidence? Perhaps. Nothing can be empirically proven.
> 
> I am not saying here that Kitzi's issue is the fault of Shinemore. I am saying that communication was a huge issue & I felt stonewalled. So if the willingness to communicate is an issue to be considered then it makes logical sense that buying state side has advantages.
> 
> In defense of my breeder who imported from Korea she has been thoroughly open, caring, honest, forth coming & handled w/complete integrity, and her English is not exactly "top-dog" but she works hard to communicate in a way that others did not. Again, this is just my experience and I know that other's have been more positive. I am happy:thumbsup: for them.



Issues that are seen on this forum point to the problems obviously. Good breeders here get contracts to spay / neuter pups with inherited deformity traits. In days gone bye theses pups were put down by the breeder. My dog had undescended testicles which is a trait that is inherited. If he had not been neutered he could of passed this trait on. Hope the breeder does not breed his parents again but I cannot control that. It is in the conscious of the breeder. He was 5 months old when I bought him and I love him very much. I did not mean to be negative about Korean pups but I live in a state that only has 2 maltese breeders. My last dog a wired fox terrier- the only two breeders in this state one quit & the other moved to Washington. I had to travel out of state to dog shows to have enough dogs to get points to finish her. Sorry for rattling on. If I have offended anyone that was not the intent.


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## Lacie's Mom

elly said:


> What I am really struggling with is how can a "reputable breeder" breed so far off standard. I believe the standard for a Shih Tzu 9-16 pounds.


Cathy -- there is a different standard for the Shih Tzu that AKC recognizes and the Imprerial Chinese Shih Tzu that Pat just got. The IC Shih Tzu has not requested AKC recognition. There are many breeds that do not want to be recognized by AKC for various reasons.

This is a good article on the Imperial Chinese Shih Tzu:

History of the Chinese Imperial Dog and the Shih Tzu and Size Canines

As far as getting a dog from overseas, I would not hesitate if I knew and trusted the breeder. When I was breeding Lhasas, I sold dogs to many overseas breeders so that they could enhance their bloodlines. This included Europe, Asia, South America and Australia.

Shinemore has a lot of Bonnie Palmer's Angels in her bloodlines and at one time Nora Lee (Shinemore owner) worked with Bonnie here in the U.S. to enhance her breeding program. Secret and her brother, Rumor, plus 2 other Angels were foundation Maltese for Sharon Rainey who owns Khanthav Maltese in Ireland. Breeze was also used as a foundation Maltese for Longmont in England. As we all know, Sandy's fluffs have Shinemore in their pedigrees.

I'm lucky that my breeder of choice is here in the U.S., however, if she didn't have something available or if she stops breeding, I wouldn't hesitate to go to Korea, or Ireland or England or Austria to get a puppy that has her bloodlines in it.


----------



## hoaloha

Lacie's Mom said:


> Cathy -- there is a different standard for the Shih Tzu that AKC recognizes and the Imprerial Chinese Shih Tzu that Pat just got. The IC Shih Tzu has not requested AKC recognition. There are many breeds that do not want to be recognized by AKC for various reasons.
> 
> This is a good article on the Imperial Chinese Shih Tzu:
> 
> History of the Chinese Imperial Dog and the Shih Tzu and Size Canines
> 
> As far as getting a dog from overseas, I would not hesitate if I knew and trusted the breeder. When I was breeding Lhasas, I sold dogs to many overseas breeders so that they could enhance their bloodlines. This included Europe, Asia, South America and Australia.
> 
> Shinemore has a lot of Bonnie Palmer's Angels in her bloodlines and at one time Nora Lee (Shinemore owner) worked with Bonnie here in the U.S. to enhance her breeding program. Secret and her brother, Rumor, plus 2 other Angels were foundation Maltese for Sharon Rainey who owns Khanthav Maltese in Ireland. Breeze was also used as a foundation Maltese for Longmont in England. As we all know, Sandy's fluffs have Shinemore in their pedigrees.
> 
> I'm lucky that my breeder of choice is here in the U.S., however, if she didn't have something available or if she stops breeding, I wouldn't hesitate to go to Korea, or Ireland or England or Austria to get a puppy that has her bloodlines in it.


So, according to that article- chinese imperial dogs are a separate breed than shih tzu and should not be called "small shih tzu" or "imperial shih tzu" etc... Or am I reading the article incorrectly? I'm just worried that "teacup" shih Tzus are being bred and passed off as Chinese Imperial dogs. It'd be interesting to see the pedigrees. I have no in depth knowledge of shih Tzus since Maltese are my number one breed of choice. Shih Tzus are super sweet but not as smart as Maltese (  ) hey, this is a Maltese forum so I'm biased! All in good humor 





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## Ann Mother

Talk about breeding did anybody else see the program on HBO "sports Bryan Gumbal know I spelled his name wrong. It was on AKC & how they are allowing certain characteristics to be exaggerated & thus ruining the breeds. Such as the German Shepard. Also they could not get the AKC guy to condemn inbreeding such as father to daughter. I guess three years ago the winner of Westminster was such a breeding. This program will repeat several times this week I urge people to watch it.


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## Summergirl73

Personally I wouldn't go overseas for a pet when there are so many right here who need homes. In no way am I saying that's what everyone should do just because it's my preference. It's hardly a secret on SM that I've struggled with the whole breeder vs. rescue scenario and my heart is with the rescues. I prefer to support rescues and trust me there are some really bad ones out there too that you have to look out for ... just like "reputable breeders" can be anything but reputable in many cases. To each his own I guess.


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## Robynn

I find this post very interesting. Not knowing anything, or any difference, in the Korean vs American maltese, after getting my new puppy I found out the dad was from Korea. The breeder said she needed to get a new line. Sheila is a very reputable breeder with a very long history of maltese breeding and I know she would not import a dog from Korea if there was any question about this import practice and she wad only doing this to improve the breed. This is my second puppy with Pashes and Sands maltese and we would get future puppies from Pashes or Sands. My puppy is very healthy and we have been extremely happy with the breeder. After I found out that the dad was from Korea, I wanted to see the pedigree. I ordered the pedigree from akc and was even more fascinated to find out that several generations back was from Pashes. So even though the dad was a so called Korean maltese he was really an American maltese. My point is, is there really a difference when they go back and forth? To me they are all the same...stinkin adorable!


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## Fluffdoll

Lacie's Mom said:


> Cathy -- there is a different standard for the Shih Tzu that AKC recognizes and the Imprerial Chinese Shih Tzu that Pat just got. The IC Shih Tzu has not requested AKC recognition. There are many breeds that do not want to be recognized by AKC for various reasons.
> 
> This is a good article on the Imperial Chinese Shih Tzu:
> 
> History of the Chinese Imperial Dog and the Shih Tzu and Size Canines
> 
> As far as getting a dog from overseas, I would not hesitate if I knew and trusted the breeder. When I was breeding Lhasas, I sold dogs to many overseas breeders so that they could enhance their bloodlines. This included Europe, Asia, South America and Australia.
> 
> Shinemore has a lot of Bonnie Palmer's Angels in her bloodlines and at one time Nora Lee (Shinemore owner) worked with Bonnie here in the U.S. to enhance her breeding program. Secret and her brother, Rumor, plus 2 other Angels were foundation Maltese for Sharon Rainey who owns Khanthav Maltese in Ireland. Breeze was also used as a foundation Maltese for Longmont in England. As we all know, Sandy's fluffs have Shinemore in their pedigrees.
> 
> I'm lucky that my breeder of choice is here in the U.S., however, if she didn't have something available or if she stops breeding, I wouldn't hesitate to go to Korea, or Ireland or England or Austria to get a puppy that has her bloodlines in it.


:goodpost: :ThankYou:


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## CloudClan

There is a lot of debate about Imperial Shih Tzu. but I do think it is worth noting that the American Shih Tzu club of America (the organization that sets standards in the U.S. for AKC like our AMA) does not recognize the Imperial. This is what they say: 
"Imperial" Shih Tzu | American Shih Tzu Club

Similar debates exist in other breeds. Perhaps like the Beiwer Yorkshire terrier. Again the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America does not recognize color differences from their standard and so does not support breeders deliberately breeding outside the colors in the standard. 

What does all of this mean? Well it seems that there are folks who are working toward breeding to a standard as set forth by a registry outside the AKC breed clubs and some of these breeders do adhere to their own ethical guidelines. 

However, IMHO, I think it would be harder to find and to judge the ethical standards of such breeders, especially without visiting them, seeing them at whatever types of shows they may participate in, and seeing how they may have been mentored in their chosen breed/variation. 

This again brings me to the conclusion that research and asking all kinds of questions is one of the most important elements in finding the right breeder. This is much more difficult to accomplish from a great distance. 

My passion for reminding folks about the necessary research is grounded in my experience in this breed for nearing 25 years. I have fostered puppy mill dogs. I have seen the tragic consequences for people who bought from brokers and pet stores and have been lied to. One of the most formative experiences I have had is my own contact with a woman called Jenny Siliski. This was about 15 years ago. After losing my Clancy and seeing the beautiful store-front website for Hollybelles Maltese (which included a tear jerking tribute story to Maltese heaven), I called her and made a puppy inquiry. Luckily, at the time, I decided to foster instead of adopting. It wasn't much longer after that that her facade as a show breeder was cracked and it was revealed that she was a total con-artist. She had had lots of happy customers, many of whom she met at some distance from her house. But Hollybelle Maltese, famous in the early years of the internet because she used the technology so well with tons of testimonials of happy customers, and a scattering of show photos of her dogs, was the worst kind of breeder. The point I am making is that it is easy to be fooled. I had many friends who were fooled by Jenny Siliski. They never knew that she had over 230 Maltese on her property that were kept in deplorable conditions. That there were dogs with genetic defects including missing limbs being bred to each other. 

What does Hollybelles Maltese have to do with breeders in Korea or any other country? She was in the U.S.. Many of her buyers lived in neighboring states. But to me it was a lesson that you can never be careful enough. If you do not want to contribute to the suffering of dogs in conditions like those at Hollybelles, do your research, ask questions, then when you feel you have asked enough, ask more.


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## pammy4501

Just to present a different POV here is an article from the American Shih Tzu Club (which is the equivalent of our American Maltese Association). They take a very different view if this. What worries me personally is that when you google this breed it pops up on many many tiny tea cup sites. That doesn't bode well for me.

"Imperial" Shih Tzu | American Shih Tzu Club

And before everyone jumps all over me for this (or me), at least keep an open mind and read both articles. I don't have a problem (and have said so before here) with dogs being purchased from Korea or England or where ever a good breeder is. But it is incumbent on the buyer to be CERTAIN you are not supporting foreign puppy mills and unscrupulous breeders.


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## maggieh

CloudClan said:


> But to me it was a lesson that you can never be careful enough. If you do not want to contribute to the suffering of dogs in conditions like those at Hollybelles, do your research, ask questions, then when you feel you have asked enough, ask more.


Carina, this is an excellent point. Thank you!


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## maltese manica

Thanks for this post, I find it interesting on the thoughts on all parties! Pat I think your new little one is very cute and am happy that you got a chance to get her. Being from Canada and if I wanted to get a maltese............ I would be going to the states with a reputable breeder as I am not so impressed with the breeders here with the maltese! Anyways that's just my own opinion. BTW I think Kimmy is adorable too


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## doggyluver5

Janene, I am also from Canada and altho I got my first maltese from Ontario I was unable to find one I liked when I purchased Majic and Annie. I travelled to the US to get both of them. When I was recently in Vegas with Annie I was surprised to find so many people coming over to admire her and they actually knew she was a Maltese. In Canada everyone is always asking me what breed she is. I guess there is a much larger population in the US therefore many more breeders. I have recently found a good breeder (in my opinion) that I met at a show here. It is JB Little Maltese. She and her daughter (who shows the dogs in the ring) had three of her dogs with her at the show and they were beautiful. She was very willing to talk to me about her dogs and did. I wouldn't say I wouldn't do more research if I decided I wanted another dog just to be absolutely sure but she would be on my short list…….but of course I'd really like a dog from Carina!


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## maltese manica

doggyluver5 said:


> Janene, I am also from Canada and altho I got my first maltese from Ontario I was unable to find one I liked when I purchased Majic and Annie. I travelled to the US to get both of them. When I was recently in Vegas with Annie I was surprised to find so many people coming over to admire her and they actually knew she was a Maltese. In Canada everyone is always asking me what breed she is. I guess there is a much larger population in the US therefore many more breeders. I have recently found a good breeder (in my opinion) that I met at a show here. It is JB Little Maltese. She and her daughter (who shows the dogs in the ring) had three of her dogs with her at the show and they were beautiful. She was very willing to talk to me about her dogs and did. I wouldn't say I wouldn't do more research if I decided I wanted another dog just to be absolutely sure but she would be on my short list…….but of course I'd really like a dog from Carina!


That's who I would only deal with is Carina, and I know many other Canadians that say the same thing! I refuse to do business with any Canadian maltese breeder, but that is my own opinion once again and my own comfort level. I have told many ppl that admire the maltese about her and why I love Carina and her cloud clan:wub: Sorry Carina your going to be invaded by Canadians EH! :thumbsup:


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## BJR

CloudClan said:


> My passion for reminding folks about the necessary research is grounded in my experience in this breed for nearing 25 years. I have fostered puppy mill dogs. I have seen the tragic consequences for people who bought from brokers and pet stores and have been lied to. One of the most formative experiences I have had is my own contact with a woman called Jenny Siliski. This was about 15 years ago. After losing my Clancy and seeing the beautiful store-front website for Hollybelles Maltese (which included a tear jerking tribute story to Maltese heaven), I called her and made a puppy inquiry. Luckily, at the time, I decided to foster instead of adopting. It wasn't much longer after that that her facade as a show breeder was cracked and it was revealed that she was a total con-artist. She had had lots of happy customers, many of whom she met at some distance from her house. But Hollybelle Maltese, famous in the early years of the internet because she used the technology so well with tons of testimonials of happy customers, and a scattering of show photos of her dogs, was the worst kind of breeder. The point I am making is that it is easy to be fooled. I had many friends who were fooled by Jenny Siliski. They never knew that she had over 230 Maltese on her property that were kept in deplorable conditions. That there were dogs with genetic defects including missing limbs being bred to each other.
> 
> What does Hollybelles Maltese have to do with breeders in Korea or any other country? She was in the U.S.. Many of her buyers lived in neighboring states. But to me it was a lesson that you can never be careful enough. If you do not want to contribute to the suffering of dogs in conditions like those at Hollybelles, do your research, ask questions, then when you feel you have asked enough, ask more.



You are so right Carina. I, too, was fooled by Jenny Siliski. I bought my two litter mates, Sophie & Chloe, from her in 2000 after seeing Hollybelles gorgeous Malts in Maltese Magazine. As you say, her tribute story was a "tear-jerker". I spoke with her many times on the phone, and she seemed like a reputable breeder. My DH and I flew to Nashville to see her facilities. What we saw were two moms with pups in two iris pens in her dining room. She must have had more dogs elsewhere. 

We didn't learn about the horror that occurred until several years later. I thought I had done plenty of research and asked a lot of questions, but I was still susceptible to her con-game. I'll be much more careful next time. We have been fortunate to have two delightful fluffs.


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## Lacie's Mom

I think the bottom line is that there are reputable and disreputable breeders all over the world -- no matter which country you go to. It is the responsibility of the buyer to research the breeder and learn everything about the breeder prior to purchasing from them. Yes -- it is more difficult to research if the breeder is in a foreign country, but certainly not impossible.

As the world does more and more business globally, the same is true with breeding show dogs. You will see champions of various countries in the pedigrees of reputable breeders. 

The internet also makes research easier than ever. Be cautious -- YES, definitely. But do not rule this out as a possibility for obtaining a well bred Maltese (or other breed) from another country.


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## elly

CloudClan said:


> There is a lot of debate about Imperial Shih Tzu. but I do think it is worth noting that the American Shih Tzu club of America (the organization that sets standards in the U.S. for AKC like our AMA) does not recognize the Imperial. This is what they say:
> "Imperial" Shih Tzu | American Shih Tzu Club
> 
> Similar debates exist in other breeds. Perhaps like the Beiwer Yorkshire terrier. Again the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America does not recognize color differences from their standard and so does not support breeders deliberately breeding outside the colors in the standard.
> 
> What does all of this mean? Well it seems that there are folks who are working toward breeding to a standard as set forth by a registry outside the AKC breed clubs and some of these breeders do adhere to their own ethical guidelines.
> 
> However, IMHO, I think it would be harder to find and to judge the ethical standards of such breeders, especially without visiting them, seeing them at whatever types of shows they may participate in, and seeing how they may have been mentored in their chosen breed/variation.
> 
> This again brings me to the conclusion that research and asking all kinds of questions is one of the most important elements in finding the right breeder. This is much more difficult to accomplish from a great distance.
> 
> My passion for reminding folks about the necessary research is grounded in my experience in this breed for nearing 25 years. I have fostered puppy mill dogs. I have seen the tragic consequences for people who bought from brokers and pet stores and have been lied to. One of the most formative experiences I have had is my own contact with a woman called Jenny Siliski. This was about 15 years ago. After losing my Clancy and seeing the beautiful store-front website for Hollybelles Maltese (which included a tear jerking tribute story to Maltese heaven), I called her and made a puppy inquiry. Luckily, at the time, I decided to foster instead of adopting. It wasn't much longer after that that her facade as a show breeder was cracked and it was revealed that she was a total con-artist. She had had lots of happy customers, many of whom she met at some distance from her house. But Hollybelle Maltese, famous in the early years of the internet because she used the technology so well with tons of testimonials of happy customers, and a scattering of show photos of her dogs, was the worst kind of breeder. The point I am making is that it is easy to be fooled. I had many friends who were fooled by Jenny Siliski. They never knew that she had over 230 Maltese on her property that were kept in deplorable conditions. That there were dogs with genetic defects including missing limbs being bred to each other.
> 
> What does Hollybelles Maltese have to do with breeders in Korea or any other country? She was in the U.S.. Many of her buyers lived in neighboring states. But to me it was a lesson that you can never be careful enough. If you do not want to contribute to the suffering of dogs in conditions like those at Hollybelles, do your research, ask questions, then when you feel you have asked enough, ask more.


Excellent post!! Thank you Carina!


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## DiamOnd

when i was getting my boy. i was very close in buying from an overseas breeder. i am in australia and many of the breeders here have bigger sized maltese and there isn't many registered breeders to choose from that are in Australia.

The cost for me wasn't an issue but in the end i decided against it because i felt that shipping a puppy is cruel. 

I totally understand those who do it cos i had my heart in owning a smaller sized maltese with a prettier face but personally i just couldn't go through with it because it just seems cruel. like putting a puppy in a crate and making him fly on a plane for hours and hours alone. I only can imagine it will be super scary for the puppy to go through that.


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## charmypoo

Lacie's Mom said:


> Cathy -- there is a different standard for the Shih Tzu that AKC recognizes and the Imprerial Chinese Shih Tzu that Pat just got. The IC Shih Tzu has not requested AKC recognition. There are many breeds that do not want to be recognized by AKC for various reasons.
> 
> This is a good article on the Imperial Chinese Shih Tzu:
> 
> History of the Chinese Imperial Dog and the Shih Tzu and Size Canines


I am sorry to bring back another old thread but just wanted to make sure the correct information is shared to anyone doing research. There is no such thing as an Imperial Chinese Shih Tzu and the article shared above is from a breeder that is not considered reputable. No reputable Shih Tzu breeder will go near or be associated with the owner of that website. There has been many allegations in the past around the upbringing and health of their puppies.

With that said, there can be flukes in the size of Shih Tzu. My Shih Tzu, Waffle, is only 4.5 lbs and he is 13 year old. His father is a Westminister breed winner and his kids continue to win in the ring. He is getting up there in age but I know he is very special and I will never find another Shih Tzu at this size and quality. He has the most amazing personality and happy for each day he is still with us.


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## The A Team

Well, I have a new perspective on getting a pup from Korea now.

Chyna is now 1 year old....and has grown and grown and GROWN! 

My tiny 2 lb (5 month old) pup is now a whooping 8 lbs!!!! :w00t:


I will always be open to getting a gorgeous maltese from Shinemore in the future, but I will NEVER get a dog through a broker ever again.

Sandi was right all along. I had trusted a broker and got ripped off royally. I have not tried to put this broker down in any way, but being told to feed a pup a tiny bit of kibble 4 times a day (to keep her small) is absolutely ridiculous !!!! :blink: I love Chyna and she is a real sweetheart and I am in love with the Shih Tzu breed now, but I could have saved myself a boat load of money and got the small tzu I really wanted in the first place!!!!!!!! 

.....when my other dogs eat to much, they get chubby.....not humongous!!


----------



## maggieh

The A Team said:


> Well, I have a new perspective on getting a pup from Korea now.
> 
> Chyna is now 1 year old....and has grown and grown and GROWN!
> 
> My tiny 2 lb (5 month old) pup is now a whooping 8 lbs!!!! :w00t:
> 
> 
> I will always be open to getting a gorgeous maltese from Shinemore in the future, but I will NEVER get a dog through a broker ever again.
> 
> Sandi was right all along. I had trusted a broker and got ripped off royally. I have not tried to put this broker down in any way, but being told to feed a pup a tiny bit of kibble 4 times a day (to keep her small) is absolutely ridiculous !!!! :blink: I love Chyna and she is a real sweetheart and I am in love with the Shih Tzu breed now, but I could have saved myself a boat load of money and got the small tzu I really wanted in the first place!!!!!!!!
> 
> .....when my other dogs eat to much, they get chubby.....not humongous!!


Pat - thank you for sharing this! 

I know there's a lot of debate about "imperial" - and that the Tzu parent club regards them in the same way us Malt-lovers think of "teacup" - but you are absolutely correct in that you should work with a reputable breeder you can trust!

Now go give your big girl Chyna a kiss from us!


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## Summergirl73

Reading this thread and all I can think of is the number of fluffs being abandoned and murdered every day, while we exploring purchasing one. I know most of you won't agree with this post and I ask that you merely respect my opinion on the topic. I was ready to do the same and buy a pup at one time not so long ago. So thankful that I can say that will Never happen. Very thankful for those that taught me about rescue needs. Adopt don't shop as they say.


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## mysugarbears

Summergirl73 said:


> Reading this thread and all I can think of is the number of fluffs being abandoned and murdered every day, while we exploring purchasing one. I know most of you won't agree with this post and I ask that you merely respect my opinion on the topic. I was ready to do the same and buy a pup at one time not so long ago. So thankful that I can say that will Never happen. Very thankful for those that taught me about rescue needs. Adopt don't shop as they say.


Bridget while I respect that you plan to always rescue and you asked us to respect your opinion. You should follow suit and respect those who choose to purchase from a reputable/ethical show breeder. We are all here because we have one thing in common and that is we love maltese. There are many of us that do our part to help rescues be it by donating, transporting, adopting or fostering. So we all do our part and there are various reasons that some want to purchase from a reputable/ethical show breeder. Don't put those members down because they chose a different route than you to get a maltese.


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## Summergirl73

No one put you down - I merely pointed out that rescue has value as well.


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## Summergirl73

Oops should have edited my last post sooner to say that I had purchased Bella. I supported a mill - one of the worst. That's why I feel so strongly about the value in mentioning the need for rescue.


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## mysugarbears

Reading this thread and all I can think of is the* number of fluffs being abandoned and murdered every day, while we exploring purchasing one.*



Summergirl73 said:


> Oops should have edited my last post sooner to say that I had purchased Bella. I supported a mill - one of the worst. That's why I feel so strongly about the value in mentioning the need for rescue.


The above quoted in bold is what i took offense to.

Quite a few of us have purchased from puppy mills, brokers, byb and greeders before we knew better. After i purchased Chloe it dawned on me several years later that i purchased Chloe from a broker. I can see why your so passionate about rescue, i would love to foster one day but right now my situation isn't ideal enough to foster.


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## Summergirl73

My post was truly not intended to offend, but rather to encourage other options. Honestly I have often wondered if SM is the best fit for me, since I have become quite firmly against breeding in general. I know there are good breeders out there, and Carina for example is certainly one of them. I've met her and respect her immensely. I think for me, there was just a shift in thinking. I understand a love for the breed and the betterment of it through ethical breeding practices, it just doesn't outweigh the reality of the over population of pets in our society. I have found it difficult to encourage "shopping" from any breeder, when so many lives are lost each day. If there weren't such an abundance of Malts in shelters, rescues and for sale online, then I might feel differently. That's why I shared my thoughts on this posters thread.


----------



## charmypoo

The A Team said:


> I have not tried to put this broker down in any way, but being told to feed a pup a tiny bit of kibble 4 times a day (to keep her small) is absolutely ridiculous !!!!


I have heard this too. Is the theory that by feeding a puppy less? They don't grow as big .. because they don't get the nutrients they need?


----------



## Snowball Pie's Mommi

The A Team said:


> Well, I have a new perspective on getting a pup from Korea now.
> 
> Chyna is now 1 year old....and has grown and grown and GROWN!
> 
> My tiny 2 lb (5 month old) pup is now a whooping 8 lbs!!!! :w00t:
> 
> 
> I will always be open to getting a gorgeous maltese from Shinemore in the future, but I will NEVER get a dog through a broker ever again.
> 
> Sandi was right all along. I had trusted a broker and got ripped off royally. I have not tried to put this broker down in any way, but being told to feed a pup a tiny bit of kibble 4 times a day (to keep her small) is absolutely ridiculous !!!! :blink: I love Chyna and she is a real sweetheart and I am in love with the Shih Tzu breed now, but I could have saved myself a boat load of money and got the small tzu I really wanted in the first place!!!!!!!!
> 
> .....when my other dogs eat to much, they get chubby.....not humongous!!





charmypoo said:


> I have heard this too. Is the theory that by feeding a puppy less? They don't grow as big .. because they don't get the nutrients they need?


Wow ... that is sad. And, it sure sounds abusive. Those poor fluff babies.

Years ago, I used to work with the sweetest Chinese woman. Her feet were so tiny. Ngae Sien said that as a young child and while growing up ... that their feet were tightly bound (I forget in what) so that their feet would stay small. So, nothing surprises me anymore. The more I read of these practices in regard to animals and humans ... the more I think h-e-l-l is right here on earth.


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## silverhaven

We have several brokers of tiny dogs in the Vancouver area, shipped from Korea. I do know they particularly say to feed very very small amounts, it is disgraceful. They also charge mega bucks. One of those breeders was in the local dog store with a couple of them, they were tiny, but weedy, very thin coats, she indicated that they usually didn't have good coats, maybe because they are starved........ 

Love the Shinemore pups though


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## eiksaa

Summergirl73 said:


> My post was truly not intended to offend, but rather to encourage other options. Honestly I have often wondered if SM is the best fit for me, since I have become quite firmly against breeding in general. I know there are good breeders out there, and Carina for example is certainly one of them. I've met her and respect her immensely. I think for me, there was just a shift in thinking. I understand a love for the breed and the betterment of it through ethical breeding practices, it just doesn't outweigh the reality of the over population of pets in our society. I have found it difficult to encourage "shopping" from any breeder, when so many lives are lost each day. If there weren't such an abundance of Malts in shelters, rescues and for sale online, then I might feel differently. That's why I shared my thoughts on this posters thread.



I think the difference is the abundance of malts or other dogs in shelters and rescues is rarely caused by ethical breeders. One, they don't have litters that often. Two, they place dogs after a lot of scrutiny so an owner surrender is not very likely. Three, most ethical breeders will take their dog back if the owner definitely needs to give the dog up for whatever reason. 

So if one does understand the need for betterment of the breed, then I don't see many cons.


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## Summergirl73

"I think the difference is the abundance of malts or other dogs in shelters and rescues is rarely caused by ethical breeders. One, they don't have litters that often. Two, they place dogs after a lot of scrutiny so an owner surrender is not very likely. Three, most ethical breeders will take their dog back if the owner definitely needs to give the dog up for whatever reason. So if one does understand the need for betterment of the breed, then I don't see many cons."[/QUOTE]



You bring up some very valid points and I do see where you are coming from. I have grown a lot recently and my thoughts on this issue have taken up a large place in my heart. I had to deal with what it was that was not setting well with me. I had to grow even more. Unfortunately I have seen and learned of too much in regards to so many supposedly reputable breeders. Many on the AMA list. I have begged for assistance in saving animals that are being neglected and tossed aside. All the while hearing that another human was encouraging more breeding and more dogs. At the end of the day, my heart, in the society that we live in today, simply does not see the overall value in "breed betterment" while there are so many lives being lost each day. It feels almost materialistic to me ... Something that I strive to not have in my life. We are seeking perfection in animals while we discourage such thinking in humans (body image issues and such) . The double standard of that thinking does not sit well in my spirit. It is why I am choosing not to attend breed specific dog shows etc. Putting one beautiful creature against another and determining which is more worthy? No, my Yogi spirit spins at such thinking. I totally get how my opinion is not a popular one on this site. I do feel it is important to voice it though. I would imagine that great change never happens in ones hearts if we are never challenged in the first place. No I am not judging - just prayerful that hearts and eyes will open to other loving options.


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## eiksaa

Summergirl73 said:


> You bring up some very valid points and I do see where you are coming from. I have grown a lot recently and my thoughts on this issue have taken up a large place in my heart. I had to deal with what it was that was not setting well with me. I had to grow even more. Unfortunately I have seen and learned of too much in regards to so many supposedly reputable breeders. Many on the AMA list. I have begged for assistance in saving animals that are being neglected and tossed aside. All the while hearing that another human was encouraging more breeding and more dogs. At the end of the day, my heart, in the society that we live in today, simply does not see the overall value in "breed betterment" while there are so many lives being lost each day. It feels almost materialistic to me ... Something that I strive to not have in my life. We are seeking perfection in animals while we discourage such thinking in humans (body image issues and such) . The double standard of that thinking does not sit well in my spirit. It is why I am choosing not to attend breed specific dog shows etc. Putting one beautiful creature against another and determining which is more worthy? No, my Yogi spirit spins at such thinking. I totally get how my opinion is not a popular one on this site. I do feel it is important to voice it though. I would imagine that great change never happens in ones hearts if we are never challenged in the first place. No I am not judging - just prayerful that hearts and eyes will open to other loving options.



Thanks for responding. It is great to respectfully discuss these issues on this site. 

I disagree with the comparison with humans. Like you mentioned, we discourage that thinking because of body image issues. Animals simply don't have that problem. Mieka doesn't think any lesser of herself because her bite went slightly off. Neither do we think she's any inferior to Gustave. Or that he's inferior to her for having a tail that curls in. It doesn't matter because they are not show dogs. Even if there are pet owners out there who obsess on looks, the dogs don't know and don't care. 

It is worth remembering that looks is not the only think breeders (should) focus on. Health is the other major factor. Yes, you never know either way but if you look at dogs that have health issues, BYB or puppymill dogs are in the majority. 

I don't really understand how it would work in the long term if there weren't people out there who were breeding fine specimens on these breeds. Where would dogs come from? How would one maintain quality when it comes to health, forget looks. 

I could see judging two living things on their looks not sitting well with you, but I also thing the showing is what gets breeders into this hobby. It's a non profitable hobby, and I don't think many breeders would do it if they couldn't show their dogs. I also think showing keeps them honest since now everyone can see their 'work'. Vs BYBs who could breed whatever they wanted to and no one would be any wiser. 

Totally hear you that not all breeders are ethical. Hopefully sites like these can weed out the bad ones and encourage people to go to good breeders. If you've had personal experiences with breeders on the AMA list that could help someone on SM, might be a good idea to share it here too.


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## edelweiss

Great discussion. Love the spirit displayed here.
We went with breed quality because we were not able to rescue another pup in the US to take over-seas. Sometimes the rescue groups make it quite difficult for ordinary people to meet the criteria even-though I understand their reasoning. A little flexibility would serve them in some instances.


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## Summergirl73

I feel bad that we've kind of hijacked this thread, maybe we can start a new thread to continue this conversation further? 

I don't presume to have all the answers that's for sure. I just know that when God places something so heavily upon my heart, He is doing it for a reason. He is challenging my growth and encouraging action. While I know that breeding (for betterment reasons or otherwise) does not sit well with my spirit, I'm not sure the way to work out those details. I'd love to have a healthy discussion about those ideas at some point. Is it giving license to only a handful of quality breeders for a select period of time? Is it imposing a breeding brand for multiple years? I truly don't know. I do know that our society is capable of coming up with a reasonable and loving response if we try - and if we do not allow greed or ego to play a role in the response. I don't think banning Mills & BYB's alone is adequate, but you can imagine how I feel about those groups. As I mentioned before, the AMA (and other breed groups I'm sure), fall quite short of monitoring breeders. Some are no better than BYB's for sure. I will not call out the folks here or elsewhere, just know with TRUE inspection and research, the information is attainable. The problem is, no proper regulations exist and individuals that don't bother to research thoroughly, among other things. As far as the show ring goes, the underlying evils that exist there are many. I just feel sick when I think of the whole concept. It really doesn't keep folks honest, but I so wish it did. No I am not implying that all who participate in showing are bad people - far from it. But I have come to understand that the show ring for some is little more than a cover for breeding volume and issues. Also as I mentioned before, seeking perfection in appearance is heartbreaking to me. I understand that the dogs don't care what they look like, but the humans, handlers and judges certainly do. Then we promote those events which encourages like minded thinking. I get the improvement of health issues, but often that doesn't even work. To be honest our old mutts that I loved forever had almost zero health issues until they were over 13 years if age. One was adopted from a box of puppies outside a grocery store and the other from the SPCA. Breeding does not guarantee health to be sure. Anyway, I am over simplifying, but trying to loosely explain why I no longer see these things in the same light as I once did. As Sandi indicated, we have a long way to go in the rescue world as well. The fees are often outrageous and guidelines (while likely well intended) are too stringent for some individual cases. There are also those that front as being a rescue group and are actually just brokers - a word that makes my stomach ill. While some of us may never agree on this topic, I pray that I have brought another part of the conversation to the table. I truly have tried to do so in a respectful manner, while not watering down my views on the topic.


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## Dominic

Bridget,
In this case, what would happen with purebred dogs? If they are not going to be breed anymore they soon will not exist, right? I'm interested to know your thoughts about it.


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## pammy4501

I also attempted the rescue route. I was denied a dog due to the fact that at the time I was looking I had my granddaughter living with us for a short time. It was an eye opening experience to fill out a lengthy application and then be denied, even though I was a responsible dog owner, had a vet, planed to provide pet insurance, had a fenced yard etc. I was denied due to a child in my home. Thankfully I was connected with a great breeder and got my dog Frank. Since that time, I have really come to realize why people get dogs from reputable breeders. 

The original purpose for establishing dog breeds was to reproduce certain behaviors and predispositions that could be passed on genetically. This works great for hunters, pointers, and dogs with guarding tendencies etc. And personality qualities are also determined genetically, like our breed. If you want to be sure you are getting a sweet kissy face companion dog you go to a breeder that breeds for great Maltese temperament. The advantage of a purebred dog is that that they provide us with some level of predictability. You can know in advance the size, activity level, and general personality characteristics of the dog that you are choosing for your family. A randomly bred dog may become a fine companion, but it can also turn out to be a dog that does not fit your lifestyle, and ends up being one of 40% who end up abandoned or in shelters. A purebred dog allows you to know some of its character and personality traits in advance. 

Dividing the world into those who should feel guilty for owning a pedigreed dog and those who can feel self-righteous for rescuing a dog does little to solve the two major problems facing dog issues today: careless breeding and an antiquated shelter system. We currently have a shelter system that’s still using a century-old practice of euthanizing unwanted dogs. The numbers of people who would like a new companion, is about same as the number of dogs we put to death each year in shelters. Why, then, aren’t more adopted? The problem is in the shelter system. Most shelters aren’t proactive. They aren’t open in the evenings making it more difficult for working folks to adopt, they don’t partner with the community members to foster, and they don’t partner with breed rescues. Should we blame breeders for the problems in the shelter system? Assigning blame to one or the other doesn’t do much to solve the issue. The statistics say that 40% of dogs don’t make it through the first year with a new owner. They are instead returned to a breeder, given to a shelter or rescue or abandoned. These are the statistics from USHS. In almost all cases the reason given for getting rid of the dog is a mismatch in behavior, personality, activity level or size. If you are going to live happily ever after with a dog, it’s extremely important that the dog fits into your lifestyle.

Again this is what many “reputable breeders” and breed rescues do best. They screen people and hopefully weed out the folks that are not going to be a good match for a puppy or dog. And in the end, that is what is most important that dogs and owners are well matched for a happy and healthy future together.


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## Summergirl73

I hear what you all are saying. While I may agree with some of your points, I clearly have a difference of opinion on other aspects. I don't really have much more to add on the topic at this time, other than what I have already expressed. I don't presume to have all the answers, but I will also not be apologetic for my beliefs. I go in prayerful hope that we can improve upon on a cruel situation that exists for so many animals. I hope that in some way these posts will have at least encouraged others to consider alternative options other than continually purchasing dogs while there are so many that need rescuing and are being killed daily. Agreeing to disagree on the topic I suppose. Again, I understand that the mission statement of SM involves supporting reputable breeding. I will give honest consideration of this to determine how I fit in to upholding that mission statement now. My desire is not to rock the boat or create tension here on this page or to support the feeling of being "self righteous" by supporting rescue. If you carefully read my previous posts, they were submitted humbly and not with such intent. To assume anything other than that would be incorrect and clearly without knowing me at all. I am merely supporting my belief system in saving lives as a priority and worrying about breeding as a secondary response, not in the opposite order.


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## Dominic

I'm failing to understand your logic beyond understanding that those are your beliefs which, respectfully, doesn't add on mine. As I have asked before, if only rescue is a good way to get a dog, what would happen with purebred dogs?
I have 3 of them and have no plans on getting rid of them cause I got the dogs that fits my lifestyle in many aspects. If I remember correctly you have had one or two experiences in returning a dog as it did not suit your needs, if they were from a reputable breeder or rescue we know they would have been placed to another home, so how being a reputable breeder that does it to better the breed add to the problem? 
BYB and puppy mill are the problem! To finish, dog show are not a beauty pageant contest, it goes way deeper than good looking dogs.


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## Summergirl73

Beatriz, I have said multiple times, and you have clearly failed to read, I do not presume to have all of the answers, nor do I expect others to see things from my prospective. I merely expressed my beliefs and encouraged others to consider options other than purchasing dogs. Really, it's not that uncommon for one to have that viewpoint. There is a world full of believers of the same view. What is uncommon is for part of this SM family to speak up and express that, because many are afraid of being condemned for such thinking. Surely you do not think I am alone in this thinking? It matters not. Again, you presume much about "reputable breeders". I wish you well in your line of thinking. 

I have little more to add to this topic because I can see the course that this thread is headed and I have no desire to be a part of that. I have seen it many times here on SM. Please know that I have approached my posts with honesty, encouragement of personal growth and kindness. I do appreciate the previous posters who have shared their opinions and differences in good spirited and kind conversation.


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## CloudClan

Summergirl73;3584810[B said:


> ]Reading this thread and all I can think of is the number of fluffs being abandoned and murdered every day, while we exploring purchasing one.[/B] I know most of you won't agree with this post and I ask that you merely respect my opinion on the topic. I was ready to do the same and buy a pup at one time not so long ago. So thankful that I can say that will Never happen. Very thankful for those that taught me about rescue needs. Adopt don't shop as they say.





Summergirl73 said:


> My post was truly not intended to offend, but rather to encourage other options. Honestly I have often wondered if SM is the best fit for me, since I have become quite firmly against breeding in general. I know there are good breeders out there, and Carina for example is certainly one of them. I've met her and respect her immensely. I think for me, there was just a shift in thinking. I understand a love for the breed and the betterment of it through ethical breeding practices, it just doesn't outweigh the *reality of the over population of pets in our society. * I have found it difficult to encourage "shopping" from any breeder, when so many lives are lost each day. If there weren't such an abundance of Malts in shelters, rescues and for sale online, then I might feel differently. That's why I shared my thoughts on this posters thread.





Summergirl73 said:


> "I think the difference is the abundance of malts or other dogs in shelters and rescues is rarely caused by ethical breeders. One, they don't have litters that often. Two, they place dogs after a lot of scrutiny so an owner surrender is not very likely. Three, most ethical breeders will take their dog back if the owner definitely needs to give the dog up for whatever reason. So if one does understand the need for betterment of the breed, then I don't see many cons."




You bring up some very valid points and I do see where you are coming from. I have grown a lot recently and my thoughts on this issue have taken up a large place in my heart. I had to deal with what it was that was not setting well with me. I had to grow even more. Unfortunately I have seen and learned of too much in regards to so many supposedly reputable breeders. Many on the AMA list. I* have begged for assistance in saving animals that are being neglected and tossed aside*. All the while hearing that another human was encouraging more breeding and more dogs. At the end of the day, my heart, in the society that we live in today, *simply does not see the overall value in "breed betterment" while there are so many lives being lost each day. It feels almost materialistic to me ... S*omething that I strive to not have in my life. We are seeking perfection in animals while we discourage such thinking in humans (body image issues and such) . The double standard of that thinking does not sit well in my spirit. It is why I am choosing not to attend breed specific dog shows etc. Putting one beautiful creature against another and determining which is more worthy? No, my Yogi spirit spins at such thinking. I totally get how my opinion is not a popular one on this site. I do feel it is important to voice it though. I would imagine that great change never happens in ones hearts if we are never challenged in the first place. No I am not judging - just prayerful that hearts and eyes will open to other loving options.[/QUOTE]

Bridget, I get where you are coming from in several ways, I used to think the same way, but I do think some of your beliefs are based on misconceptions. You are using some of the lines and slogans that are part of the propaganda used by HSUS and PETA. Don't shop adopt for instance is right out of their ads. But the fact is you are wrong about how many Maltese dogs that are available through rescue. When I was fostering I had a lot of special needs dogs available but rarely had what people wanted. In fact, fostering is what showed me the importance of having both breeders and rescue groups to combat the bybs and puppy mills. Your own experience shows that special needs dogs are not right for every family. To me that don't shop adopt slogan is as unfair as those who try to make couples feel guilty for seeking fertility treatments instead of adopting children out of fostercare. Not every family is made the same way. If we do not support ethical breeders we will only have rescues and unethical breeders. 


As for the breeders who did not help I will say ethical breeders should all support rescue, but they may not be able to do it in the way you might wish. For instance, some may not be able to take in dogs out of shelters because they might put their own seniors or puppies at risk. They may not be able to give hours to driving on a transport at a given time because they are on puppy watch or are having to take care of their own special needs seniors. If your heart is in rescue by all means follow it, but please do not dismiss all breeders as selfish for breeding or puppy buyers for finding family members through the avenue best for their family.


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## mysugarbears

CloudClan said:


> You bring up some very valid points and I do see where you are coming from. I have grown a lot recently and my thoughts on this issue have taken up a large place in my heart. I had to deal with what it was that was not setting well with me. I had to grow even more. Unfortunately I have seen and learned of too much in regards to so many supposedly reputable breeders. Many on the AMA list. I* have begged for assistance in saving animals that are being neglected and tossed aside*. All the while hearing that another human was encouraging more breeding and more dogs. At the end of the day, my heart, in the society that we live in today, *simply does not see the overall value in "breed betterment" while there are so many lives being lost each day. It feels almost materialistic to me ... S*omething that I strive to not have in my life. We are seeking perfection in animals while we discourage such thinking in humans (body image issues and such) . The double standard of that thinking does not sit well in my spirit. It is why I am choosing not to attend breed specific dog shows etc. Putting one beautiful creature against another and determining which is more worthy? No, my Yogi spirit spins at such thinking. I totally get how my opinion is not a popular one on this site. I do feel it is important to voice it though. I would imagine that great change never happens in ones hearts if we are never challenged in the first place. No I am not judging - just prayerful that hearts and eyes will open to other loving options.


Bridget, I get where you are coming from in several ways, I used to think the same way, but I do think some of your beliefs are based on misconceptions. You are using some of the lines and slogans that are part of the propaganda used by HSUS and PETA. Don't shop adopt for instance is right out of their ads. But the fact is you are wrong about how many Maltese dogs that are available through rescue. When I was fostering I had a lot of special needs dogs available but rarely had what people wanted. In fact, fostering is what showed me the importance of having both breeders and rescue groups to combat the bybs and puppy mills. Your own experience shows that special needs dogs are not right for every family. To me that don't shop adopt slogan is as unfair as those who try to make couples feel guilty for seeking fertility treatments instead of adopting children out of fostercare. Not every family is made the same way. If we do not support ethical breeders we will only have rescues and unethical breeders. 


As for the breeders who did not help I will say ethical breeders should all support rescue, but they may not be able to do it in the way you might wish. For instance, some may not be able to take in dogs out of shelters because they might put their own seniors or puppies at risk. They may not be able to give hours to driving on a transport at a given time because they are on puppy watch or are having to take care of their own special needs seniors. If your heart is in rescue by all means follow it, but please do not dismiss all breeders as selfish for breeding or puppy buyers for finding family members through the avenue best for their family.[/QUOTE]



Excellent post Carina!!! :aktion033::aktion033: :aktion033:


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## edelweiss

Another point not brought into this discussion (which I find quite good) is "what happens to people, like yourself---who are highly allergic & can not have a dog who isn't more hypoallergenic?" It would make it almost impossible for them to have a dog.

I often see in the US that people see things more "black & white" than I do. Things can become an either/or situation rather than a combination of more complicated ideas. I for one completely respect your opinion, I know your character & love you for it, but I would not throw out the baby w/the bath. We all agree that BYBs, greeders, brokers and some less than "reputable breeders" (and yes, they do exist) should be exposed at every turn---even when it seems anti-social to do so or costs us something we wish we did not have to surrender.
A forum needs differing opinions---it is healthy.


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## Dominic

Summergirl73 said:


> Beatriz, I have said multiple times, and you have clearly failed to read, I do not presume to have all of the answers, nor do I expect others to see things from my prospective. I merely expressed my beliefs and encouraged others to consider options other than purchasing dogs. Really, it's not that uncommon for one to have that viewpoint. There is a world full of believers of the same view. What is uncommon is for part of this SM family to speak up and express that, because many are afraid of being condemned for such thinking. Surely you do not think I am alone in this thinking? It matters not. Again, you presume much about "reputable breeders". I wish you well in your line of thinking.
> 
> I have little more to add to this topic because I can see the course that this thread is headed and I have no desire to be a part of that. I have seen it many times here on SM. Please know that I have approached my posts with honesty, encouragement of personal growth and kindness. I do appreciate the previous posters who have shared their opinions and differences in good spirited and kind conversation.


Here is the thing, I have not failed to READ what you said, I absolutely understand and disagree with you. You have your beliefs and made them clear as I have mine. You have said a few times that you don't have all the answers and that is okay, yet not knowing which answers you have or not, you can't expect us to do not ask the questions. I don't think you are alone in this thinking and I do not care if people are afraid of being condemned for such thinking, I don't hide my beliefs and ideas from anyone and I can not do anything for those that are afraid to express themselves. 

SM is a public forum about Maltese dogs. Maltese are purebred dogs. The forum as whole supports reputable breeders and rescues and fights against BYB and puppy mills. Once you bring it up that no dog should ever be breed, you can't get defensive if we don't agree with you or if we don't see the way you see and ask you for more - that is the only way we grow, change our minds and move on. Now, I do wish you well in your way of thinking.


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## eiksaa

CloudClan said:


> Bridget, I get where you are coming from in several ways, I used to think the same way, but I do think some of your beliefs are based on misconceptions. You are using some of the lines and slogans that are part of the propaganda used by HSUS and PETA. Don't shop adopt for instance is right out of their ads. But the fact is you are wrong about how many Maltese dogs that are available through rescue. When I was fostering I had a lot of special needs dogs available but rarely had what people wanted. In fact, fostering is what showed me the importance of having both breeders and rescue groups to combat the bybs and puppy mills. Your own experience shows that special needs dogs are not right for every family. To me that don't shop adopt slogan is as unfair as those who try to make couples feel guilty for seeking fertility treatments instead of adopting children out of fostercare. Not every family is made the same way.* If we do not support ethical breeders we will only have rescues and unethical breeders*...


Completely agree with the statement there in bold. I have never fully understood the rationale behind 'Don't shop, adopt' extremists. Let's say in a few years everyone stops buying pups because everyone is enlightened now. Breeders, BYBs, puppymills all shut down. All the dogs in rescues are either adopted or die, like all living things do. Then what? While I totally agree with the idea of not supporting greeders, where do these people want dogs to come from? Just doesn't add up.


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## Lacie's Mom

Have to say that I agree with Deb, Aastha, Pam, Carina and Beatriz on this one. There is a place, imho, for both rescue and for ethical show breeders that want to better a breed of dog.

To what Pat said about Chyna's broker, I know that it's true 'cause we talked about this back in June when I visited Pat. Startling to me is the fact that, way back when I was getting started showing Lhasas, one of the breeders I admired and thought of as a mentor made the same irrational statement about feeding a dog very little so that it doesn't get too big. She wasn't talking about an overweight fluff - but a young puppy who had large parents in the line. I was shocked at the time and I'm still shocked to know that there are those that still have this mindset.  To me, underfeeding just equals poor nutrition and leads to bad health. Size is genetic.


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## StevieB

CloudClan said:


> You bring up some very valid points and I do see where you are coming from. I have grown a lot recently and my thoughts on this issue have taken up a large place in my heart. I had to deal with what it was that was not setting well with me. I had to grow even more. Unfortunately I have seen and learned of too much in regards to so many supposedly reputable breeders. Many on the AMA list. I* have begged for assistance in saving animals that are being neglected and tossed aside*. All the while hearing that another human was encouraging more breeding and more dogs. At the end of the day, my heart, in the society that we live in today, *simply does not see the overall value in "breed betterment" while there are so many lives being lost each day. It feels almost materialistic to me ... S*omething that I strive to not have in my life. We are seeking perfection in animals while we discourage such thinking in humans (body image issues and such) . The double standard of that thinking does not sit well in my spirit. It is why I am choosing not to attend breed specific dog shows etc. Putting one beautiful creature against another and determining which is more worthy? No, my Yogi spirit spins at such thinking. I totally get how my opinion is not a popular one on this site. I do feel it is important to voice it though. I would imagine that great change never happens in ones hearts if we are never challenged in the first place. No I am not judging - just prayerful that hearts and eyes will open to other loving options.
> 
> Bridget, I get where you are coming from in several ways, I used to think the same way, but I do think some of your beliefs are based on misconceptions. You are using some of the lines and slogans that are part of the propaganda used by HSUS and PETA. Don't shop adopt for instance is right out of their ads. But the fact is you are wrong about how many Maltese dogs that are available through rescue. When I was fostering I had a lot of special needs dogs available but rarely had what people wanted. In fact, fostering is what showed me the importance of having both breeders and rescue groups to combat the bybs and puppy mills. Your own experience shows that special needs dogs are not right for every family. To me that don't shop adopt slogan is as unfair as those who try to make couples feel guilty for seeking fertility treatments instead of adopting children out of fostercare. Not every family is made the same way. If we do not support ethical breeders we will only have rescues and unethical breeders.
> 
> As for the breeders who did not help I will say ethical breeders should all support rescue, but they may not be able to do it in the way you might wish. For instance, some may not be able to take in dogs out of shelters because they might put their own seniors or puppies at risk. They may not be able to give hours to driving on a transport at a given time because they are on puppy watch or are having to take care of their own special needs seniors. If your heart is in rescue by all means follow it, but please do not dismiss all breeders as selfish for breeding or puppy buyers for finding family members through the avenue best for their family.


[/quote]



Carina, as always you are the voice of reason. I love rescue! I do photography for three different rescues now and I am photographing on average 2-3 dogs a week. So I meet a lot of dogs. I haven't met one maltese. So to say the shelters have a lot of maltese is not exactly true. I'll also say the very few rescue maltese I know of personally (besides Steve) have been damaged somehow, either physically, mentally, or they have special needs. Sadly many (but not all!) malts that end up in rescue have been mistreated or neglected, not properly socialized, and that can leave you with a timid or unstable dog. Of course it would be a noble thing to adopt one! And I certainly hope everyone will look into rescue, and look into their hearts and decide if they are willing and able to give these precious babies a forever home with them. But quite honestly most people want a pet, not a project. And many families would not be suited to a dog who needs to be treated with kid gloves (mine certainly wouldn't). I have total respect for people who do their homework, and know what breed of dog will suit them, then seek out a respectable breeder who breeds dogs that meet the standards of the breed. I personally believe breeders should be breeding for temperament and health first, then looks. We all know this is not usually how it works but still one can dream. What I don't respect is people who want a "purebred" maltese but don't want to pay the price for a properly bred maltese so they support a puppy mill or byb because it's "cheaper" ("why should I pay $1200 from so and so when I can get a puppy for $575 on Puppy Find?"). Or they want a puppy right NOW and they're not willing to do the legwork to find a good breeder. That I have a real problem with. 

We NEED to support responsible show breeders who are breeding for specific traits in purebred dogs. Because if there were not people out there breeding purebred dogs, the entire dog species would eventually evolve into medium sized, short coated brown or black dogs. And that's nice, but I don't want that, I want a little white fluffy dog (I'll go out on a limb and say that's true for everyone on this forum, am I right?). I know what I want and I don't apologize for it. Now, I did get lucky and find an awesome dog through a rescue. But before I hit the jackpot with him, I was fully prepared to buy an older puppy from a show breeder who had been held back for show. Steve is one in a million, there are not too many like him in rescue (and FYI he's probably not all maltese, so he wouldn't be suited for someone wanting a "real" maltese .

So that's just my two cents. Of course we should all support rescue in whatever way we can. But I don't think there's one answer for everyone, we all have different situations and expectations for what we want in a pet. Adopt don't shop is a really nice idea, but it's unrealistic. I think adopt or shop responsibly would be a better saying. Or maybe something a little more clever B)


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## maggieh

> Carina, as always you are the voice of reason. I love rescue! I do photography for three different rescues now and I am photographing on average 2-3 dogs a week. So I meet a lot of dogs. I haven't met one maltese. So to say the shelters have a lot of maltese is not exactly true. I'll also say the very few rescue maltese I know of personally (besides Steve) have been damaged somehow, either physically, mentally, or they have special needs. Sadly many (but not all!) malts that end up in rescue have been mistreated or neglected, not properly socialized, and that can leave you with a timid or unstable dog. Of course it would be a noble thing to adopt one! And I certainly hope everyone will look into rescue, and look into their hearts and decide if they are willing and able to give these precious babies a forever home with them. But quite honestly most people want a pet, not a project. And many families would not be suited to a dog who needs to be treated with kid gloves (mine certainly wouldn't). I have total respect for people who do their homework, and know what breed of dog will suit them, then seek out a respectable breeder who breeds dogs that meet the standards of the breed. I personally believe breeders should be breeding for temperament and health first, then looks. We all know this is not usually how it works but still one can dream. What I don't respect is people who want a "purebred" maltese but don't want to pay the price for a properly bred maltese so they support a puppy mill or byb because it's "cheaper" ("why should I pay $1200 from so and so when I can get a puppy for $575 on Puppy Find?"). Or they want a puppy right NOW and they're not willing to do the legwork to find a good breeder. That I have a real problem with.
> 
> We NEED to support responsible show breeders who are breeding for specific traits in purebred dogs. Because if there were not people out there breeding purebred dogs, the entire dog species would eventually evolve into medium sized, short coated brown or black dogs. And that's nice, but I don't want that, I want a little white fluffy dog (I'll go out on a limb and say that's true for everyone on this forum, am I right?). I know what I want and I don't apologize for it. Now, I did get lucky and find an awesome dog through a rescue. But before I hit the jackpot with him, I was fully prepared to buy an older puppy from a show breeder who had been held back for show. Steve is one in a million, there are not too many like him in rescue (and FYI he's probably not all maltese, so he wouldn't be suited for someone wanting a "real" maltese .
> 
> So that's just my two cents. Of course we should all support rescue in whatever way we can. But I don't think there's one answer for everyone, we all have different situations and expectations for what we want in a pet. Adopt don't shop is a really nice idea, but it's unrealistic. I think adopt or shop responsibly would be a better saying. Or maybe something a little more clever B)


Carina and Celeta, you've said what I was thinking very eloquently!


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## Summergirl73

Such a very predictable response by many. Looking forward to moving on and following my heart. Best wishes to you all.


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## Dominic

Summergirl73 said:


> Such a very predictable response by many. Looking forward to moving on and following my heart. Best wishes to you all.



Predictable as coming from a place that fully sports reputable breeders. Sometimes when we change a lot some people and places don't fit in anymore. It feels good to let go. Wish you find the support you're seeking for.


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## Orla

If I wanted to get another dog and only wanted to go for a rescue, I'd probably be waiting forever. I have specific needs(I have allergies), and I'd also be pretty fussy about the personality of the dog(Milo is VERY active and playful - it would not be good to get a dog with low energy that never wants to play). Just those two things alone would make it so difficult to find a rescue here. So people like me should just not get dogs? 

I fully support both reputable breeders and rescues. Those are the 2 ways to get a dog - and which ever a person goes for is fine, and there is no way that person should ever be made feel guilty for their choice. The number one priority is to get a dog that suits yours and your family's needs.


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## pammy4501

I have to agree with Bridget. It is actually competely predictable that this message is recieved in this way. After tall, this is a MALTESE forum that supports reputable breeding programs. Very predictable responses from purebred dog owners.


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## angel's mom

I always thought the slogan, "Don't Shop, Adopt" simply meant don't shop at pet store but instead adopt, as in from a shelter or rescue group. Never considered that it had anything to do with getting a dog from a reputable breeder.


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## Zakaren

I live in Dubai and to get a well bred Maltese I had to contact a breeder abroad and get my puppy shipped cargo. I used the best vet in Dubai to arrange all the travelling and paperwork using an approved agent in both locations to oversee the wellbeing of my dog at all times. He is 100% Korean line Maltese bought from Russia by an amazing breeder and he is healthy and beautiful.
I hope this helps 



zooeysmom said:


> I see that it has become very popular here on SM for people to buy dogs from Korea. This is extremely concerning to me because Korea has horrible puppy mills, just like the U.S. Unless you travel there and inspect where your dog came from, you have no idea what the dog's living conditions are. Now I know there are "reputable" breeders like Shinemore. However, they allow their puppies to be shipped in cargo, which I believe is cruel. I had a puppy shipped two years ago and he was fried just traveling domestically in cargo. I would NEVER do that again! Also, Korean breeders often use trick photography to make their puppies look more "extreme" in the eyes and short muzzle. You can get just as cute a puppy from an American breeder.
> 
> How does everyone else feel about this trend? And no, I'm not jealous of those with Korean Malts, as has been an argument between some other people. I could easily afford any pet Malt puppy from any breeder here or Korea.


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## zooeysmom

Oh my goodness, this is an almost 7 year old thread!


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## edelweiss

SM has "gone to the dogs!" LOL


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## zooeysmom

Sandi


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## edelweiss

I am not sure why in the last 6-8 months SM keeps posting very old threads & then people pick up on them like it is today's news??????????? Are we that desperate for postings? There must be something here I am not grasping.


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## Abella's Mommy

I'm thinking maybe members are using the "search" feature to find answers to their questions which is a good thing.  
Some topics are "time sensitive" but a lot are not. 
🐶🐾🌷


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## wkomorow

edelweiss said:


> I am not sure why in the last 6-8 months SM keeps posting very old threads & then people pick up on them like it is today's news??????????? Are we that desperate for postings? There must be something here I am not grasping.


I think people are finding old posts, replying and then others don't notice the older posts and are responding to the most recent reply. I do notice an uptick and we do have a lot of new members coming on board.


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