# More on Puppy Socialization . . . .



## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I'm starting a new thread because even I am getting lost in the previous thread about puppy behavior. Also, this one is from a little different slant.

The AVSAB and ABRI position statements are the reason I keep bringing puppy socialization topic up, and are the reason I don't like for new members to be hounded with the "no reputable breeder allows their puppies to go home earlier than twelve weeks" statements. The AVSAB and ABRI are two veterinary behavior professional organizations. 

With what was currently recommended on some dog trainer's sites for the recommendation for an age for a puppy to go to it's new home, I completely understand why the American Maltese Association would have as it's recommendation 12 weeks. I hadn't found these when I started my threads about puppy socialization (two years ago or so?) and didn't understand where the AMA was coming from on their recommendation. However, I've read many, many books by veterinary behaviorists and saw they were recommending a younger age, and this is how this whole thing started. After reading these recommendations and noting they were different from the AMA's recommendation, I began to dig to see what the top veterinary behavior professionals recommend for ages for puppies to go to their new homes and why they have such recommendations.

I'm going to work backwards with the most recent info. first, so if you haven't already, please take the time to read the link to the AVSAB's Position Statement on Puppy Socialization at the end of this post . This statement was posted in 2008.


I'll start with this: 


The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) is a professional organization for *Veterinarians* who are board certified in veterinary behavior. This means they have completed a veterinary residency at an approved residency program in veterinary behavior and they have passed a national board examination in that discipline.

PhDs who have a doctorate in animal behavior may also be a member of the AVSAB.


I haven't thoroughly researched to see who can be an ABRI member, but I suspect it's similiar qualifications.


As I mentioned in the other thread, I requested permission to copy an AVSAB reply to a veterinarian about puppy socialization. The AVSAB president graciously gave me permission to copy the reply. I do like Dr. Meyer's statement that if a puppy is going to be isolated at the new owner's home, it would be better for the puppy to stay with the breeder and I wholeheartedly agree with this.

*****


I will start with my inquiry to Dr. Meyer:

_Dr. Meyer,

May I copy your response to puppy socialization concerns as written in the December newsletter of the AVSAB and post it on a maltese forum? (Article titled "Dr. Meyer Responds to Puppy Socialization Concerns in Clinician's Brief" I'm just a pet owner who is interested in animal behavior. . . . . . . . . .

We go 'round and 'round on this particular maltese forum about the appropriate age for a maltese puppy to go to it's new home and if you have any input specifically to a maltese, I'd appreciate this also. 
_

**********

Here was Dr. Meyer's reply:

_Hi Joy,


Please feel free to reproduce it with attribution. Generally, we recommend homing pups around 8 weeks so that you still have at least 4 weeks of the sensitive period of socialization to work with. Of course, if the new owner just isolates the little puppy during that time, maybe staying with a good breeder who has people in and takes the puppies out would be better. The impt thing is that the puppy gets out to see other people, other dogs, other puppies, and many, many different environments--all done in a way that doesn't frighten the pup.


Keep up the good work! The more we get the word out the better!


Kathy_



***********

Here's Dr. Meyer's letter which was in the AVSAB newsletter:

_
*Dr. Meyer Responds to Puppy Socialization Concerns in Clinician's Brief*


In their September 2008 issue, the veterinary magazine Clinician's Brief informed their readers of AVSAB’s position statement on puppy socialization. Their brief article highlighted our recommendation that puppy socialization and
training begin before a full vaccine series is completed at 16 weeks of age. 

A reader (a veterinarian) responded to the article expressing his concerns that socialization in the form of puppy class would result in distemper or parvoviral infection and the resultant legal liability veterinarians would face because of our recommendations. Dr. Meyer, current AVSAB present, responded in the November 2008 issue of Clinician’s Brief with the following statement:


“Thank you for taking the time to respond to AVSAB’s position on puppy socialization. As a professional veterinary
organization, we most certainly are concerned about the physical health of puppies as well as their emotional health.

“The sad reality is that more dogs are euthanized because of behavioral problems than due to infectious or neoplastic
diseases. Much of an adult dog’s temperament is influenced during the sensitive period of socialization, which occurs
between 3 and 12 weeks of age. The concept of the “sensitive period of socialization” was first established through the
extensive work by behavioral geneticists John L. Fuller and John Paul Scott in the 1940s and 1950s. This work was published
in 1965 and is currently available as Dog Behavior: The Genetic Basis (University of Chicago Press, 1965). In addition,
the positive effects of early socialization in puppy classes has been documented in the scientific literature.1

Minimizing Risk 

“With regard to concern over the spread of infectious diseases, such as parvovirus and distemper, there are very simple steps that should be taken to minimize this risk (identified by Dr. Kate Hurley, MPVM, DVM, Director of the Koret Shelter Medicine Program, University of California–Davis):
• Quarantine puppies at home for 2 weeks after removal from a high-risk environment (ie, pet store, puppy mill,
animal shelter).
• Limit exposure to other puppies during this time; however, they may still be socialized with fully vaccinated
adult dogs and, of course, people, vacuum cleaners, etc.
• All puppies entered into a group setting should have been adopted more than 2 weeks earlier and at least 1 week after
first vaccination.
• Puppy classes should be held in an environment that is easily cleaned and puppy training areas should be cleaned
and sprayed routinely with a parvocidal disinfectant.
• To add an extra measure of safety in a high-risk community (eg, shelter-run class in a lower income neighborhood),
vaccination intervals can be safely shortened to 2 weeks rather than waiting 3 to 4 weeks between shots.

“Dr. Hurley further notes that these recommendations only apply to controlled puppy classes. Owners should not
take puppies to high-risk, uncleanable environments or those frequented by newly adopted pets. Puppies should never
touch the floor of pet stores or veterinary clinics, nor should they go to dog parks until completing the full series of vaccinations.


18 Years of Success

“Puppy socialization classes have been conducted for almost 2 decades by various practitioners. For example,
Kersti Seksel, BVSc (Hons), MRCVS, FACVSc (Animal Behavior), CMAVA, Diplomate ACVB & ECVBM–CA, of
Sydney Animal Behaviour Service in Australia, has taught puppy preschools and “Kitty Kindy” in Australia for 18 years
without any serious infectious disease outbreak. Others in the United States note that the only infectious disease that
they have seen spread at these types of puppy classes has been kennel cough.

“As with most things in life, the recommendation to allow young puppies to socialize together prior to completing their
vaccination series is based on a risk–benefit analysis. Review of the scientific literature regarding the behavioral development of dogs and the real-life practical experiences of those who have applied these principles support AVSAB’s position that the benefit exceeds the risk in these controlled environments, provided the guidelines noted above are followed.”


E. Kathryn Meyer, VMD
President, American Veterinary Society of
Animal Behavior

1 Evaluation of association between retention in the home and attendance at puppy socialization, MM Duxbury, JA Jackson, SW Line, RK Anderson - Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2003.

To view the complete article, please visit www.cliniciansbrief.com.
N.B. Please also see the excellent article “Applied Behavior: Update on behavior research” by Dr. Debra Horwitz in the
same issue of Clinician’s Brief.[/B]_

*********


Here's the Link to the 2008 AVSAB Position Statement:
ASVAB's Position Statement on Puppy Socialization



Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

For an historical perspective, here's a link to what was previously recommended by some dog trainers and behaviorists and why I see how the AMA would have come up with a twelve week rule:

HSUS Link




Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Here's an explanation of veterinary behavior credentials and why it is important to look at the credentials of any person you obtain behavior advice. Anyone can call themselves a pet behaviorist. I've copied and pasted the following from the AVSAB site:


Explanation of credentials: 

_DVM or VMD: Doctor of Veterinary Medicine or Veterinary Medical Doctor. Veterinarians are the only people legally able to diagnose and treat medical and behavioral problems in animals, including prescribing medications to treat those problems.

DACVB: Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. Person is a veterinarian who has completed an approved residency program in veterinary behavior and has passed a national board examination in that discipline. A board certified Veterinary Behaviorist specializes in clinical animal behavior and is able to diagnose and treat medical and behavioral problems as well as prescribe medications to treat those problems.

PhD: Persons have completed PhD degree in animal behavior or a related field. This degree is research and theory related and does not necessarily imply clinical behavior training.

Behaviorist: This term is not attached to any specific qualification or level of schooling unless preceded by "veterinary" or "applied animal." This term is not attached to any specific qualification or level of schooling. It can be used by anyone including someone with no formal education in companion animal behavior. 
Other options for finding a person who has an interest in companion animal behavior: 

Contact your pet's veterinarian or nearest veterinary college 
Contact one of our members in your area who has indicated to AVSAB a professional interest in treating behavior problems. These can be found by using the locator function_


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

i agree that puppy socialization is _very_ important. However, I do not and will not *ever* put an un-vaccinated puppy down on the ground in public. I take my pups to petsmart/petco/whereever, but they are held the entire time. They get the exposure to different environments, but the risk is minimal.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Jul 8 2009, 11:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802722


> i agree that puppy socialization is _very_ important. However, I do not and will not *ever* put an un-vaccinated puppy down on the ground in public. I take my pups to petsmart/petco/whereever, but they are held the entire time. They get the exposure to different environments, but the risk is minimal.[/B]



:aktion033: :drinkup: Excellent!


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## littlemissy (May 19, 2009)

Interesting info and probably applies to medium and larger breeds very well but no matter how many articles you post I would never take home a maltese or *any* toy breed who was under two pounds (which almost all are at 8 weeks and some smaller ones beyond twelve weeks) home. Calista, a tiny toy poodle, was the tiniest in her litter and I had to wait until she was 14 weeks old to bring her home due to being so darn dinky. We could not be closer and I don't feel I missed out on any critical bonding/socialization period. She worships me and loves everyone she meets.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Off topic, but I wonder how dogs ever survived as a species these last few thousand years without vaccinations...From the way we are so dependent on vaccinations, you would think that the canine species would have been extinct by the 20th century, since there weren't canine vaccinations before then.

Sorry, I don't want to sound snippy but I think vaccinations for animals and humans is way out hand...someone is making a whole lot of money instilling fear into vulnerable people. I've heard of people who have never vaccinated their kids or their dogs and they are all healthy and happy.



OK, :back2topic: 


:behindsofa:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I often wished I'd had Nikki home with me earlier than 18 weeks, but she was well-socialized when I got her. When I was a child we got a mini poodle puppy at 6 weeks old from a backyard breeder, and it was a huge mistake taking him home that soon. 

I don't know much about this subject, but I am glad you are posting this information so I can learn more. Thanks!!


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 8 2009, 12:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802749


> Off topic, but I wonder how dogs ever survived as a species these last few thousand years without vaccinations...From the way we are so dependent on vaccinations, you would think that the canine species would have been extinct by the 20th century, since there weren't canine vaccinations before then.
> 
> Sorry, I don't want to sound snippy but I think vaccinations for animals and humans is way out hand...someone is making a whole lot of money instilling fear into vulnerable people. I've heard of people who have never vaccinated their kids or their dogs and they are all healthy and happy.[/B]



I think the difference is years ago we didn't vaccinate and people/dogs did die from the disease, but many lived. The diseases and illness were not as strong as they are now. So, we found a way to vaccinate and cure those diseases/viruses. Now there are new and more powerful strains of these illnesses/diseases - they are more virulent. This is why we need to vaccinate now and didn't necessarily then. Yes you can opt not to vaccinate and still be healthy and happy, but there is still a larger chance of getting that disease. I choose to do puppy vaccinations because I've had a dog that contracted Parvo (after he'd been vaccinated ironically) and he survived but was also a bit older and a lab. I wouldn't ever want my choice to not do a prevention to cause my dog to have an awful disease.

I would also choose not to put a small puppy with only 1 vaccination under their belt down in public. I also would choose to not put a puppy without all vaccinations down in public places like Petco/Petsmart, dog parks, the beach, etc... However, I am willing to put an older puppy with at least 2 shots into a puppy class in a private training facility. Jax had 2 shots and was going in for his last one after his very first puppy class. He clearly made it and the risk was low. They clean their facility many times a day and accidents immediately with anti bacterials.

We started his puppy classes 'early' and he was socialized very well when I first got him (and I'm sure with his breeder). However, Jax does not like other dogs and is wary of strangers. He had early and continuing socialization. But he is clearly a 'reactive' dog and it is controlled but he will never be the dog that will greet strangers or other dogs. 

Kenzie, however, I got when she was 16 weeks old - way past your 'socialization period' - and she is fine. She started puppy class at 5 months old. She barks, but it's because she is excited. She is not reactive. She is the type of dog that will greet strangers (she actually throws herself at them) and doesn't mind other dogs. So staying with Stacy that extra time was not detrimental to her socialization. If you were to look at these 2 cases you would even say staying with her breeder longer was better....

I do agree that people should not be 'hounded' about getting their dogs before 12 weeks, what's done is done. But as it is, there is not a reputable breeder in the US that allows their puppies to go before 12 weeks, especially not at 8. They should also know this, to prevent it in the future and to prevent other people from doing the same.

I will also state again. In all of their studies there is not a single one (at least that you have shown) that is on Toy breeds! As a science major I look at all variables in a study. If they are not studying toy breeds and only large/medium breeds then their study is not complete. A study would also have to cover MANY dogs/litters, not just a few. I think this is where reputable breeders, who have been breeding for many years with many dogs, come far ahead of any study a vet can do. They have truly been doing the 'studies' and on only one breed, so they are far more experienced than any single vet could possibly be.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Suzan, in the same breath we are seeing many people not vaccinating for parvo (for financial reasons) and now many more cases in our area. Vaccines were made because there was a huge problem with dogs dying from parvo and distemper. There are serious diseases that can affect our pets, children, and ourselves. I do not believe NO vaccines is a good solution. We stopped vaccinating for Lepto in many places and it sure it rearing its ugly head. Measles in people is another one that is having a re-emergence. I am for a middle ground that is as safe as possible for those being vaccinated as well as for contagious disease control. 

Joy, I have had clients see Dr. Meyer, and I feel she is an excellent practitioner. I also agree with her that so long as socialization is being actively addressed, 12 weeks is just fine. Again, this puts the burden on the breeder. Perhaps a good approach would be to help provide information on socialization to breeders so they understand just how important these few weeks before the pups leave are and HOW they can be improving their puppies' mental health. 

I also strongly agree with early puppy classes. You take a calculated risk....but the benefits are huge.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

Joy,
It is a fact that NO reputable breeder of Maltese in the US will place their puppies before the puppy is around 12 weeks old.........period. This is the whole truth and nothing you print or quote is going to change this fact. I am so sorry you have a problem with waiting until a puppy is 12 weeks old, I truly am. The people on this list and many other toy breed lists have worked extremely hard to get the word out about puppy mills and BYB's. Yet you support them by constantly saying that 8 week old puppies are OK to bring home......you ARE supporting those that breed for greed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I repeat.......................NO REPUTABLE MALTESE BREEDER IN THE US WILL PLACE THEIR PUPPIES BEFORE THEY ARE 12 WEEKS OLD.


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 8 2009, 02:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802765


> I will also state again. *In all of their studies there is not a single one (at least that you have shown) that is on Toy breeds! *As a science major I look at all variables in a study. *If they are not studying toy breeds and only large/medium breeds then their study is not complete.* A study would also have to cover *MANY *dogs/litters, not just a few. *I think this is where reputable breeders, who have been breeding for many years with many dogs, come far ahead of any study a vet can do. They have truly been doing the 'studies' and on only one breed, so they are far more experienced than any single vet could possibly be.*[/B]


 :goodpost:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Ooh, off topic again, sorry.

Thanks for the info on vaccines, I know that I am in the minority in my thinking and we can agree to disagree. There is a doctor that Nikki's vet told me about- a traditional DVM called Dr Ford (Richard I think?) out of UNC, who is very adamant about treating dogs as INDIVIDUALS, taking into consideration their lifestyles before deciding on a vaccine protocol. He is not for cookie cutter recommendations. I agree with him. I really don't think that pets should all be treated the same way regarding vaccinations. 

Another thought (off topic again) I was wondering if there were any studies done on the effects of rabies vaccination specifically on toy dogs like Malts and Yorkies and if there is any correlation between them and liver shunt/MVD? Like if bile acid tests were done before and after rabies vaccination?

The reason why I am asking this is that hubby and I took Nikki in yesterday for her yearly checkup. We had a very long discussion with Dr. Smith, Nikki's primary care veterinarian, whom I've known for 15 years and I respect him greatly, although we disagree on some issues. He was telling me about the rabies vaccine and the adjuvents, etc., and I was wondering if anyone knows if a study has ever been done regarding rabies vaccine and liver shunts/mvd.

Off topic, so sorry!!


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Well I'm not an expert on any subject :blush: but I do have dogs. So here's my two cents.

I got Abbey at "just about" 8 weeks old. She was already pee pee pad trained - which was fantastic!!! :chili: But she is 4 years old now and is still fearful of strange dogs we meet on our walks - she tries to bite them. Also when anyone comes into our home, she barks non-stop until *she* gets a "proper" hello :blink: . I don't know if this is because she came to us so young or not. My other dogs are not like this though. 

So because of this, ....and I believe dogs should have socialization and we have no dog parks around....so I have puppy parties at my home. I try to have them several times a year - but...ummmm.....for some unknown reason......the puppy owners usually end up having the best time.... :brownbag: :blush: 

On Friday I'm having a mini "play date" afternoon. A friend of mine has a maltese who won't walk on a leash - so we'll ALL go for a walk to help Tiara. Then we'll end up in the back yard....partying....  

Abbey is fine with them, but isn't Miss Socialite like Ava is... :wub:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Suzan,

MVD/Shunts are actually physical defects in the liver's perfusion system. A shunt can appear (acquired shunt) due to another disease process (hepatitis for example), but porto-systemic shunts are something the dog is born with, not something made by another disease process. 

Bile acids are a test of perfusion whereas liver enzymes can be elevated due to all sorts of other damages/insults to the liver. So for a vaccine to influence the liver's perfusion...well...you'd have to ask an expert but I would hazard a guess that the only thing a vaccine would potentially cause that the liver would reflect would be an inflammatory-type process.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (TotallyTotoNTuffy @ Jul 8 2009, 02:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802783


> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 8 2009, 02:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802765





> I will also state again. *In all of their studies there is not a single one (at least that you have shown) that is on Toy breeds! *As a science major I look at all variables in a study. *If they are not studying toy breeds and only large/medium breeds then their study is not complete.* A study would also have to cover *MANY *dogs/litters, not just a few. *I think this is where reputable breeders, who have been breeding for many years with many dogs, come far ahead of any study a vet can do. They have truly been doing the 'studies' and on only one breed, so they are far more experienced than any single vet could possibly be.*[/B]


 :goodpost: 
[/B][/QUOTE]

This is basically my thought also.

Unless a "study" is done on the Maltese breed I would not feel it influenced the subject. I've had several breeds of dogs and then Maltese for almost 18 yrs. now, and I believe that they are the most sensitive creature I've ever been around. Their nature and mental state is SO different from any other breed. That is why we love them so, like vulnerable children. My first Malt, Frosty, was only 7 wks. when I brought him home, and that was a disaster in so many ways. I had no idea what I was doing and obviously he didn't have a decent breeder.

The only other toy breed I've had is Min. Poodle, and that one was nothing like my Malts but I would imagine to some degree other tiny toys should be treated like we do our babys. 

I'll stick with the Maltese breeders that know what they are doing and condition their puppies as they raise them to 12 wks. Just living with their sibblings and parents for those extra wks. is so important to their future and hopefully the breeder cares enough to see that they are socialized in other ways.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Jul 9 2009, 12:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=803153


> QUOTE (TotallyTotoNTuffy @ Jul 8 2009, 02:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802783





> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Jul 8 2009, 02:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802765





> I will also state again. *In all of their studies there is not a single one (at least that you have shown) that is on Toy breeds! *As a science major I look at all variables in a study. *If they are not studying toy breeds and only large/medium breeds then their study is not complete.* A study would also have to cover *MANY *dogs/litters, not just a few. *I think this is where reputable breeders, who have been breeding for many years with many dogs, come far ahead of any study a vet can do. They have truly been doing the 'studies' and on only one breed, so they are far more experienced than any single vet could possibly be.*[/B]


 :goodpost: 
[/B][/QUOTE]

This is basically my thought also.

Unless a "study" is done on the Maltese breed I would not feel it influenced the subject. I've had several breeds of dogs and then Maltese for almost 18 yrs. now, and I believe that they are the most sensitive creature I've ever been around. Their nature and mental state is SO different from any other breed. That is why we love them so, like vulnerable children. My first Malt, Frosty, was only 7 wks. when I brought him home, and that was a disaster in so many ways. I had no idea what I was doing and obviously he didn't have a decent breeder.

The only other toy breed I've had is Min. Poodle, and that one was nothing like my Malts but I would imagine to some degree other tiny toys should be treated like we do our babys. 

I'll stick with the Maltese breeders that know what they are doing and condition their puppies as they raise them to 12 wks. Just living with their sibblings and parents for those extra wks. is so important to their future and hopefully the breeder cares enough to see that they are socialized in other ways.
[/B][/QUOTE]


:goodpost:


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I disagree that maltese are never included in behavior studies. I think you all are discounting the fact that the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior members have behavior clinics and dog training classes all over the U.S. I'm sure they see every breed/mixed breed imaginable in their classes and clinics, and they DO keep very detailed behavior statistics. Here's Cornell's behavior clinic questionnaire:


Link to Cornell's Behavior Clinic Questionnaire



When I took Karli for Puppy Class and Level One Obedience, I had to fill out a behavior questionnaire which included where I got her and the age I obtained her. So even some dog trainers are keeping statistics.




Joy


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Jul 8 2009, 03:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802777


> Joy,
> It is a fact that NO reputable breeder of Maltese in the US will place their puppies before the puppy is around 12 weeks old.........period. This is the whole truth and nothing you print or quote is going to change this fact. I am so sorry you have a problem with waiting until a puppy is 12 weeks old, I truly am. The people on this list and many other toy breed lists have worked extremely hard to get the word out about puppy mills and BYB's. Yet you support them by constantly saying that 8 week old puppies are OK to bring home......you ARE supporting those that breed for greed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I repeat.......................NO REPUTABLE MALTESE BREEDER IN THE US WILL PLACE THEIR PUPPIES BEFORE THEY ARE 12 WEEKS OLD.[/B]



EXACTLY. I completely agree with this.

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 8 2009, 04:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802786


> Ooh, off topic again, sorry.
> 
> Thanks for the info on vaccines, I know that I am in the minority in my thinking and we can agree to disagree. There is a doctor that Nikki's vet told me about- a traditional DVM called Dr Ford (Richard I think?) out of UNC, who is very adamant about treating dogs as INDIVIDUALS, taking into consideration their lifestyles before deciding on a vaccine protocol. He is not for cookie cutter recommendations. I agree with him. I really don't think that pets should all be treated the same way regarding vaccinations.
> 
> ...



Liver Shunt is congenital and genetic. MVD is also genetic. A vaccine would not cause liver shunt or MVD. However, it could be possible for vaccines to cause damage to the liver which would affect a bile acid test. It's important to remember that a bile acid test is for liver function in general. A high bile acid test does not always mean Liver Shunt or MVD. There are many other diseases and conditions that affect the liver and would cause a bile acid test to be high. For example, my yorkie had a high bile acid test. She did not have a shunt or MVD but instead had "fatty liver". Many times with our toy breeds, a dog with a bile acid test will in fact have a shunt or MVD..but not always. It can be something else.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Exactly what Sharon said. *Nods*


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 8 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802769


> Joy, I have had clients see Dr. Meyer, and I feel she is an excellent practitioner. I also agree with her that so long as socialization is being actively addressed, 12 weeks is just fine. Again, this puts the burden on the breeder. Perhaps a good approach would be to help provide information on socialization to breeders so they understand just how important these few weeks before the pups leave are and HOW they can be improving their puppies' mental health.
> 
> I also strongly agree with early puppy classes. You take a calculated risk....but the benefits are huge.[/B]


Joy,

I appreciate your desire to reflect on the conventional wisdom and question the basis for it. I agree that sometimes we do not look closely enough at where conventional wisdom comes from. 

I also appreciate the fact that you have shared this veterinary opinion that if the breeder is able to properly socialize the puppy then 12 weeks is appropriate. This is a critical period and it is true that this puts a much greater onus on the breeder. Frankly, some breeders will do better than others with this responsibility. However, the fact is that most breeders are more aware of this need than the average pet owner. 

As Jackie said in her post perhaps your attention might best be directed at helping to educate breeders of the need for this critical period rather than fighting the AMA's 12 week rule. 

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 9 2009, 01:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=803166


> I disagree that maltese are never included in behavior studies. I think you all are discounting the fact that the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior members have behavior clinics and dog training classes all over the U.S. I'm sure they see every breed/mixed breed imaginable in their classes and clinics, and they DO keep very detailed behavior statistics. Here's Cornell's behavior clinic questionnaire:
> 
> Link to Cornell's Behavior Clinic Questionnaire
> 
> ...


I don't think the claim was that no Maltese were ever included in studies, but rather that the studies did not specifically address the issues related to small breed puppies. Having filled out those kind of questionaires myself at puppy classes I know that my dog is a rare toy in a group of large dogs. If the studies are taken of a class as a whole they are not getting a representative sample of small breed dogs. The point is that we have not seen a study that looks specifically at toy breeds. Actually, wouldn't this make a great research paper for some graduate student? 

Again, the 12 week rule is widely accepted among toy breed breeders and toy breed clubs. One element that helps determine a breeder's reputability is that they live up to the code of ethics of the breed club (even if they are only wannabes  ). The reality is that in England that may allow for a Maltese to come home at 10 weeks. Here that means 12. Given that, while I appreciate the questions about conventional wisdom, I wonder what you hope to accomplish with the posts on this topic. 

Do you seek to encourage people to look for dogs who are bred by people who do not care to abide by the "code of ethics"? 

Do you hope to be able to acquire your next dog from a reputable breeder, but feel that you will miss out on the critical time period and therefore will be limited to only those people who are failing to live up to established standards? 

If you are only asking us to lay off newbies who have made a mistake in getting a dog from a breeder who does not have clear ethics, then you may have a fair point; however, it does seem that we should not endorse the idea that it is okay for breeders to not live up to established ethical guidelines.


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## gatiger40 (Jun 7, 2007)

:ThankYou: :goodpost:


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

:goodpost: Carina, you are such a good writer and get your point across with grace (not saying others do not  ).


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 8 2009, 12:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802749


> Off topic, but I wonder how dogs ever survived as a species these last few thousand years without vaccinations...From the way we are so dependent on vaccinations, you would think that the canine species would have been extinct by the 20th century, since there weren't canine vaccinations before then.
> 
> Sorry, I don't want to sound snippy but I think vaccinations for animals and humans is way out hand...someone is making a whole lot of money instilling fear into vulnerable people. I've heard of people who have never vaccinated their kids or their dogs and they are all healthy and happy.
> 
> ...


That is because we now vaccinate large numbers of our population. When that happens you can get a conferred immunity effect. So many people having been vaccinated does not leave many to spread the diseases that have been protected against. So the people that do not vaccinate have low risk of becoming sick. However, when too many stop vaccinating, you will see rises again in things like Polio, Small Pox, Measles, Whooping Cough and much worse. We are so fortunate to live in times where we are able to protect people against these killers. Most of the younger people on this forum cannot remember the Polio outbreaks and the panic that would ensue, or the irreparable harm that these diseases caused. This is not about spreading fear. This is sound medicine. We do not want to go back to those dark days of communicable diseases that kill and maim... even for our beloved pets. Please...vaccinate!


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Jul 10 2009, 04:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=803731


> QUOTE (JMM @ Jul 8 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802769





> Joy, I have had clients see Dr. Meyer, and I feel she is an excellent practitioner. I also agree with her that so long as socialization is being actively addressed, 12 weeks is just fine. Again, this puts the burden on the breeder. Perhaps a good approach would be to help provide information on socialization to breeders so they understand just how important these few weeks before the pups leave are and HOW they can be improving their puppies' mental health.
> 
> I also strongly agree with early puppy classes. You take a calculated risk....but the benefits are huge.[/B]


Joy,

I appreciate your desire to reflect on the conventional wisdom and question the basis for it. I agree that sometimes we do not look closely enough at where conventional wisdom comes from. 

I also appreciate the fact that you have shared this veterinary opinion that if the breeder is able to properly socialize the puppy then 12 weeks is appropriate. This is a critical period and it is true that this puts a much greater onus on the breeder. Frankly, some breeders will do better than others with this responsibility. However, the fact is that most breeders are more aware of this need than the average pet owner. 

As Jackie said in her post perhaps your attention might best be directed at helping to educate breeders of the need for this critical period rather than fighting the AMA's 12 week rule. 

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 9 2009, 01:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=803166


> I disagree that maltese are never included in behavior studies. I think you all are discounting the fact that the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior members have behavior clinics and dog training classes all over the U.S. I'm sure they see every breed/mixed breed imaginable in their classes and clinics, and they DO keep very detailed behavior statistics. Here's Cornell's behavior clinic questionnaire:
> 
> Link to Cornell's Behavior Clinic Questionnaire
> 
> ...


I don't think the claim was that no Maltese were ever included in studies, but rather that the studies did not specifically address the issues related to small breed puppies. Having filled out those kind of questionaires myself at puppy classes I know that my dog is a rare toy in a group of large dogs. If the studies are taken of a class as a whole they are not getting a representative sample of small breed dogs. The point is that we have not seen a study that looks specifically at toy breeds. Actually, wouldn't this make a great research paper for some graduate student? 

Again, the 12 week rule is widely accepted among toy breed breeders and toy breed clubs. One element that helps determine a breeder's reputability is that they live up to the code of ethics of the breed club (even if they are only wannabes  ). The reality is that in England that may allow for a Maltese to come home at 10 weeks. Here that means 12. Given that, while I appreciate the questions about conventional wisdom, I wonder what you hope to accomplish with the posts on this topic. 

Do you seek to encourage people to look for dogs who are bred by people who do not care to abide by the "code of ethics"? 

Do you hope to be able to acquire your next dog from a reputable breeder, but feel that you will miss out on the critical time period and therefore will be limited to only those people who are failing to live up to established standards? 

If you are only asking us to lay off newbies who have made a mistake in getting a dog from a breeder who does not have clear ethics, then you may have a fair point; however, it does seem that we should not endorse the idea that it is okay for breeders to not live up to established ethical guidelines.
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost: Excellent post and very well written. Thank you.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Jul 10 2009, 06:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=803748


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 8 2009, 12:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=802749





> Off topic, but I wonder how dogs ever survived as a species these last few thousand years without vaccinations...From the way we are so dependent on vaccinations, you would think that the canine species would have been extinct by the 20th century, since there weren't canine vaccinations before then.
> 
> Sorry, I don't want to sound snippy but I think vaccinations for animals and humans is way out hand...someone is making a whole lot of money instilling fear into vulnerable people. I've heard of people who have never vaccinated their kids or their dogs and they are all healthy and happy.
> 
> ...


That is because we now vaccinate large numbers of our population. When that happens you can get a conferred immunity effect. So many people having been vaccinated does not leave many to spread the diseases that have been protected against. So the people that do not vaccinate have low risk of becoming sick. However, when too many stop vaccinating, you will see rises again in things like Polio, Small Pox, Measles, Whooping Cough and much worse. We are so fortunate to live in times where we are able to protect people against these killers. Most of the younger people on this forum cannot remember the Polio outbreaks and the panic that would ensue, or the irreparable harm that these diseases caused. This is not about spreading fear. This is sound medicine. We do not want to go back to those dark days of communicable diseases that kill and maim... even for our beloved pets. Please...vaccinate!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually polio experienced it's steepest decline before the polio vaccine was introduced. There is no science to back up the efficacy of vaccinations, except those studies put forth by the pharmaceutical industry! What stopped the spread of these diseases was the introduction of proper hygiene, clean water and more effective sewage systems. 

http://www.whale.to/a/bystrianyk3.html

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

We can agree to disagree on vaccinations. I'm not in favor of them, either for people or animals. *That doesn't mean I will choose to pass on all vaccinations for myself or my pets,* but I will make an informed decision each time. People and our pets are individuals. _At least for now,_ accepting most vaccinations are a choice one makes based on their own llifestyle, and their own health. There is not a once size fits all answer to this issue, even if big pharma and the govt insists that there is. Our bodies have immune systems, and if we eat right and take care of ourselves, our immune systems work, despite the fear etc. that big pharma has driven into us.

You can find zillions of stats and studies both for and against. I've done more than my share of research, and I've had my own personal health issues due to vaccinations.

I've concluded that for us, *most*, not all, vaccinations are not worth the risk of long-term, lifelong immune damage to our bodies. 

So we'll agree to disagree.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

According to Jean Dodds there are certain breeds, including those with white coats, who have a predisposition to vaccine complications  (see vaccine protocols under vaccinations below). I'm not finished researching pet vaccines yet and will be reading the books suggested on this website. One thing is for sure - I will be doing the bare minimum and then testing titers only  

Great website!!
http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

I agree Nikki's Mom that it should be done on an individual basis. We are most definitely not vaccine candidates in our family - we've already been hurt by them.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Thanks everyone, I had hoped there would be more objective consideration of what the top behavior experts are recommending rather than opinions from those with stars on their belly . . . . . . . .



Link to youtube video 






Joy


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (vjw @ Jul 11 2009, 07:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=804026


> Thanks everyone, I had hoped there would be more objective consideration of what the top behavior experts are recommending rather than opinions from those with stars on their belly . . . . . . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Joy, I do have my opinions, based on my own "actual" experiences, thru the course of many years, involved in rescues.

So yep, call me a "cockroach". I did find your link extremely rude.

But hey, to each his own.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

I would also like to ask, other than the links, you tend to copy/paste, over, and over again,
what _real_ experiences do you have, Joy? 

Honestly, it appears you google all day long, in search of support of your thoughts.

I don't get it, when we have REAL support here, on SM. Why do you frequent SM, when
you do not agree with ANYTHING. 

Why are you so bent on selling dogs before 12-weeks, when reputable breeders, within the US,
are against it? You are, actually condoning BYB's.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

That video is totally not relevant to this discussion and, Joy, I think your posting it says more about you than about "us".

I think everything on this topic has been said ... some especially eloquent. 

[attachment=54879:closed.gif]


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