# Everybody wants black and white



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

But the answers are not like that. We have had a lot of discussion over the years on this forum and especially this week about questions of black and white. How do we know who is an ethical breeder and who is not? Everyone wants a simple answer, and the problem is the answer is different for everyone. 

Of course, there are a lot of bad breeders. Dogs are vulnerable to human's greed. And we know the horror stories of the mills.:angry: But our expectations of who the breeders are wearing the white hats is much harder to determine and frankly is as individual as we are, and as our little dogs are. 

_*What about the AMA list? Is everyone on there ethical?*_ Well, ethics are personal. And it may depend on your definition. AMA does have a code of ethics. You should certainly ask breeders about the specifics on that to see if the code is being followed, but you should also consider your own "code" and ask breeders questions about the things you may deem as important. For instance, the code says that breeders must properly socialize their puppies and keep them accustomed to human contact. For a buyer, questions could be asked to find out what the breeder can tell you about the individual personality of your puppy. This can tell you how much time they have spent getting to know their pups. You might also want to know if the puppies have had exposure to other humans. 

_*What about the USDA list? Is everyone on there unethical?*_ Unlike the assumptions have been on this forum, the answer to that is NO. There are some breeders who choose to be on the list to comply to the best of their knowledge with the law. I would say that is the opposite of unethical. Of course, many names on that list are there because they sell to pet shops, so it certainly isn't a list I would want to use to "find" a breeder. But it should not be a list that one uses to "prove" someone is an unethical breeder either. 

_*What about the popular breeders listed in threads on this forum? Will everyone have the same experience from them?*_ Doubtful. For instance, many may want a certain look and while some breeders do have consistency in their lines, you won't get a dog that looks just like or acts just like another member's dog even from the same breeding pair (genetics do not work that way). 

_*What about breeders who are out there showing their dogs, aren't they the best breeders?*_ Well, showing is one sign of a breeder who cares enough about their breeding program to show it and share it and improve it, but of course, some breeders use show pictures to "sell" and I have heard a few show breeders even admit that they have a show breeding program and a pet breeding program. Showing is a good sign, but it won't tell you definitively the ethics of a breeder. 

_*What about breeders who "health test" their dogs?*_ Another great sign, but don't be fooled by health tests that are really just simple vet checks (required by AMA code of ethics). 

_*What about breeders who DNA test their dogs*?_ DNA testing is usually done to meet AKC requirements to verfiy pedigrees. There are no DNA markers for health testing. 

As I have been showing over these last few years, I have learned a lot about what it takes to be a breeder. These things were a mystery to me as a long time pet owner of Maltese. I know when I sought out my first well-bred Maltese from a breeder, even after having been a part of the Maltese community for 16 years, I felt lost. I asked for a lot of help from friends. (And I am eternally grateful that I did). I had a lot of expectations. Like many others, I may have had a somewhat exaggerated expectation of perfection. 

Since then, I have met a lot of breeders who do things the best way they know how and it works for them. While I have yet to meet a "perfect" breeder, I have met some amazing people I admire deeply. The things I may have expected a few years ago have changed now. Learning from some of the best breeders out there, some of my expectations are increased, others I recognize as unreasonable from knowing breeders and what they do on a more intimate level. In the end though, if we want to support breeders who are ethical and who care about the dogs as we do, then it is up to us to do our homework, that may include learning from the breeders themselves, especially those breeders who are often willing to share their knowledge even when they have no puppies to sell. :thumbsup:

In the end, this process is not an easy one. Looking at websites (even this one) can not make anyone an expert. Doing your homework means digging deeper, looking beyond the simple black and white answers, and discovering and learning through networking and on your own.


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## missiek (Jan 2, 2010)

Amen Carina, beautiful post!!!


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

Good post, Carina!!!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

:goodpost: Very good job Carina in putting things into perspective.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Well said!!


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Great Post Carina!!


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Bravo, Carina. :chili:


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## fleurdelys (Apr 13, 2010)

thank you for your post :aktion033:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

:smilie_daumenpos::rockon: :clap::goodpost: :amen:k: :two thumbs up:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

:goodpost::goodpost::aktion033:

And I know that I want black and white -- a white fluff with a cute black nose -- oh yeah, I already have 3. :HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

:goodpost: Well done, Carina!:aktion033::aktion033: Thank you!:wub:


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Wheeeew, well put girl !:thumbsup:


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## kathym (Aug 5, 2006)

:thumbsup: Very well said Carina..


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Hmm, I wish I had a black and white cookie. LOL

Brava, Carina. That was amazing. 
xoxoxoxoxoxoxooxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
Yung, please pin Carina's thread.
xoxoxoxoxooxoxoxoxoxooxoxoxox


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

wonderful post. Thanks for taking the time to write it perhaps it should be pinned, so others wilk know, there are not only no black and white answers, there are also no quick answers either.


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## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

I think and this is my personal opinion, after talking with Carina by email and over the phone for years, that she is set apart from the norm. In other words, she is all about what is ethically and morally right and that to me is something that is amazing!!!! I think, going forward in her breeding program, she is the one other breeders should look up too. Along my journey for a healthy pup, I have known some really good breeders and some that I never want to see again in my lifetime. Such is the way it is but you Carina, stand out!!! Kudos to you!!!! That was a well thought out post and you hit a lot of great points~~~:chili: :chili: :chili: :chili: :chili:


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Well done Carina. I vote for a "Sticky".


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Bravo Carina....Thank you so much. I vote for a Sticky as well!!!


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

KAG said:


> Hmm, I wish I had a black and white cookie. LOL
> 
> Only a New Yorker will understand that reference. That was one of the first things I'd get to NYC do is stop at a deli and get me a Black and White!


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## Silkmalteselover (Apr 1, 2010)

:thumbsup: :aktion033: Carina Thanks so much for sharing your insight and wisdom... When I saw the title of this new thread I thought is was about WHITE dogs with BLACK points....:HistericalSmiley: :blush: And I like good pigment on my dogs very much :blush:.. In this a little wild and crazy dog show world I sure like to hear good things and not so much of the fearful, negative etc that can be around showing so I especially appreciate your thoughts. I would add that perhaps some of the "best" all round breeders today have possibly had their share of wrong decisions.. and learned from them and hopefully mentored new people along the way to avoid some of those pitfalls. 


KAG said:


> Hmm, I wish I had a black and white cookie. LOL
> 
> Only a New Yorker will understand that reference. That was one of the first things I'd get to NYC do is stop at a deli and get me a Black and White!


OK NYC SMers tell us about these black and white cookies.... picture please. :blush:


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## moshi melo (Jul 2, 2009)

Great post Carina! I second the vote for "Stickie"!!


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Silkmalteselover said:


> *OK NYC SMers tell us about these black and white cookies.... picture please*. :blush:


Jeanne - Here you go. Black and white cookies. They're a NYC staple. They're usually larger than the ones in the picture and they're kind of thick and soft when you bite into them with choc and vanilla frosting. I was always a chocolate sprinkle girl myself though:HistericalSmiley:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31n+kJfyabL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


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## ariamaltese (May 10, 2005)

A very thoughtful and well-informed, post - Carina. Very true.

Heidi
Aria Maltese


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Well said Carina. Thank you for taking such time and care to articulate these points so well. :thumbsup:


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

beautifully written !!! i so agree .


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Carina, IF there is a gift of being articulate then you are blessed w/it! Thank you for stating so well things of which we all need to be aware.


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## mom2bijou (Oct 19, 2006)

Put the sticky on this one!!!!

Well said Carina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kathym (Aug 5, 2006)

I grew up in Riverdale and there was a bakery called Mothers ..They had the best black and white cookies ever...So New York .So many calories

Riverdale the bronx


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

great post, carina


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