# What is a backyard breeder?



## biancasmom (Jun 24, 2008)

i hear a lot about Backyard Breeders.. They are always mentioned in the same breath as puppy mills and puppy brokers which i know are bad.. why are back yard breeders bad?? maybe im not thinking in the correct terms.. let me tell you how i got Bianca.

i searched websites for people seeling maltese.. i finally found a breeder site (sorry I cant remember it right now) that had my breeder on it.. It was only a little paragraph sized listing with 3 pics of pups and her name and address. She lived near me so i emailed her. Her story is that she has 4 maltese thare all family pets. i believe 3 are girls. the 4th was a male who was rescued. Every once in a while she will breed the three girls with other males (not the male she has) Usually those males are other people she knows who have maltese and take good care of them. All of her females are AKC registered. The litter my dog was born in was the first litter for that dog. She had never mated before. The father belonged to her friend and he was a purebred that had been rescued and so was not registered. My puppy's litter was 3 males and 2 females. Bianca was the bigger of the 2 females but she is only going to be about 4 or 5 lbs. the dad was very small and the mom was only about 6 or 7 lbs. The mom was very good with her babies. Because Bianca's dad is not AKC registered, that means Bianca is not AKC registered. The breeder is extremely nice. She let me come over every week until Bianca was old enough to come home with me... That way she got to know me.. They even made sure to call Bianca by her name so she was used to it. When got her at 10 weeks she was already pee pad trained and pretty much holding it through the night.. She was already wormed and had her first vaccination too. Since ive had her, the breeder has emailed me to get updates on the dog and pictures and has answered any questions i had.. she also let me come back so my dog could visit with her mommy again.. and they played for a while.. that ws cute.. 

Currently all the puppies have sold and she doent have anymore.. she said she will probably wait til next spring before she has anymore with any of her dogs...

Would she be considered a back yard breeder?

janie


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Here is a good comparision between backyard breeders and reputable breeders.

Thr sad reality is that the majority of purebred puppies are produced by backyard breeders, not puppy mills. The AKC found that only 8% of of the dogs they registered were from pet stores/puppy mills. The majority come from backyard and responsible breeders. Backyard breeders are not knowledgable in genetics, don't health test and breed dogs who are not good representations of the standard. As a result, genetic problems like liver shunts, luxating patellas, etc. are common. They also produce dogs that don't look or act like the breed is supposed to.

http://www.isaronline.org/f/A_Prime_Source...op._The_AKC.pdf

"The name 'Backyard Breeder' has become very unpopular. Nobody wants to admit they are a backyard 
breeder. Many people don't even know they are part of the problem. 

Every breed of dog recognized by the AKC, UKC or CKC has a written standard, a blueprint of what the 
dog should look and act like. These standards were written so that all would know what a quality example of 
the breed is and strive to produce dogs that meet or exceed the standard in health, temperament and 
appearance. To be sure that you are breeding dogs that meet these standards, your dogs must be judged by 
people who have a lifetime of experience among the breed. Do you know the standard of your purebred dog? 
Does your dog meet this standard according to an AKC judge? If not, your dog is pet quality. Your dog is to 
be loved, cherished, trained, cared for, spoiled and bragged about but it is NEVER to be bred. No matter how 
cute or sweet the dog may be, if it is not up to the standard, you have no business breeding it. 

If you have a purebred dog, this does not give you the right to breed it. Most purebred dogs are not 
breeding quality. If you breed your pet quality dog, you are a backyard breeder. Whether you breed the dog 
in your backyard, garage, living room or an expensive hotel room, the term is still backyard breeder. If your pet 
quality dog has papers (AKC, UKC, CKC), that's nice but it doesn't change anything. You still don't have the 
right to breed it. 

If your pet quality dog cost you $500 be glad you had the money to afford it. You still don't have the right to 
breed it. 

Do you think that you can make your $500 back if you breed your pet quality dog or if your pet is a color or 
a size that isn't the breed standard but you just know everyone will want to buy a pup if you breed her? Shame 
on you! Now you are a backyard breeder with the purpose of peddling pups for bucks. 

If the price for a tail dock or an ear crop may seem high to you, what are you going to do when your 
beloved pet needs an emergency C section? Will you even be there to know if she is in trouble? Would you 
even be able to recognize the signs before it was too late? 

And if you still want to breed your pet quality dog but need to ask who is supposed to cut off the tails and 
ears, ask yourself "What in the heck am I thinking?" 

Do you think genetic testing is something they used in the OJ trial but has nothing to do with your breeding 
career? You are a backyard breeder. 

Backyard breeders sell pup's that aren't up to the standard of the breed. They do this for many reasons. 
None are good enough reasons to contribute to the killing of the dogs. Period. 

Backyard breeders will swear all of their pups went to good homes. They believe this but it's not true. 
Some may have been luck enough to go to a good home but more than half will end up dead, in a shelter, 
alone on a cold table with a needle sticking out of their leg. Some of those good homes will get tired of the 
dog and will just give it away to the first person willing to take it. Some of your beloved dog's children will end 
up living alone in a backyard, barking all night, cold and neglected until the owner gets complaints and then the 
pup will be dead. Some will be starved and beaten. Some will be bred until they die from it. Some will end up 
in a rescue and I will have to find space for them. I will have to teach them that not all humans are bad. I will 
remove their fleas and get rid of their worms. I will have them vaccinated for the first time in their lives because 
the previous owners neglected to remember. I will spay or neuter the animal to ensure it is not snatched up by 
someone looking to make a quick buck. I will do all of these things that the previous owner should have done 
because they didn't want to. 

Backyard breeders are not responsible pet owners. They think they love the dogs but that isn't really true 
because they don't want to bother with all that it takes to breed ethically. They love feeling important when they 
say "I breed purebred dogs." but breeding pet quality dogs is not something to be proud of. It is a shame on 
our society. It is the reason for the death that occurs in shelters. Why do you want to be part of that? 

Do you want to be respected? Spay or neuter your pet dog. There is really no other way." 

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=3938


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I'd like to add that it's ideal for a puppy from a socialization/temperament standpoint to be born and raised in a breeders home. I'm all for getting a puppy from a breeder who is breeding according to maltese standards and to improve the breed, but I'm concerned about the social development of a puppy when a "reputable" breeder has all their dogs and puppies housed in a kennel. 


There's a ton of great information on breeders at petplace.com. I'm including a link, and if it doesn't work, just go to petplace.com and do a search on breeders. 


PetPlace.com





Joy


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## jlhajmom (Feb 23, 2008)

Marj's post is excellent really on target. There are too many people that are irresponsible - yes they seem nice but if they are not going to the trouble to do health screens on their breeding stock, they are creating significant problems for unsuspecting pet owners. Some of the genetic problems inherent in Maltese can be financially crippling to an owner. Many young dogs die because the owners cannot assume the costs of taking care of the problems. So, although a backyard breeder may seem nice, she is doing no justice to the breed and only causing terrible problems in the long run. The result is many innocent sweet little animals suffer.


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

Excellent post, Marj! I got my first Malt from a loving, if misguided, Backyard Breeder. I am sure she did not think of herself in this way, but she didn't have champions and the father of my pup was way larger than he should have been. They were very nice people and very nice little dogs (only one female, plus the sire and one pup from a previous litter). All AKC registered and mine was a very nice dog. He had a heart problem, but that wasn't discovered until he was 6-7 years old and he was healthy and required no medication until he was about 10 or older. He lived to be 14 1/2 years old. Stilll, this time I went to who I believe is a very reputable breeder of many champions and bought a pet quality male. He has turned out to be a WONDERFUL addition to our household and we love him very much! It goes without saying that I never entertained the idea of breeding and had him neutered at a young age. A reputable breeder will also (as mine did) sell you a limited registration, meaning you either MUST get them neutered or no puppies they ever sire can be AKC registered. I think this is a great way to promote the quality of the breed!

Cyndi


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

I don't think all BYBs are evil or even bad, just uninformed and irresponsible. They don't do their homework or consider all possibilities, good and bad. They don't see beyond cute puppies and a little extra cash, but they are still BYBs. I can't imagine how you could rescue a dog and not get it neutered. That's very unethical and really bother's me. By breeding that male, the owner is undoing all the good she did buy rescuing him and then some. Since she doesn't own the female, she doesn't know where these pups are going. As far as she knows, she putting five dogs back into rescue for the one she adopted. If your breeder screens buyers and requires the dogs be returned to her if they have to be given up, then she's not all bad.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Aug 13 2008, 03:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619300


> Do you know the standard of your purebred dog?
> Does your dog meet this standard according to an AKC judge? If not, your dog is pet quality. Your dog is to
> be loved, cherished, trained, cared for, spoiled and bragged about but it is NEVER to be bred. No matter how
> cute or sweet the dog may be, if it is not up to the standard, you have no business breeding it.
> ...


I think these points that Marj posted are very well said, if not a bit blunt. I think the term 'puppy mill' gets thrown around too often but this is a good definition of a backyard breeder. 

The majority of Backyard Breeders do have pet quality dogs and it's not really fair to the people who buy the puppies, when they think they re getting a 'purebred maltese' but in actuality wind up with a poor representation of the breed. 
By the definitions given, the person you got your dog from is a BYB. It concerns me that the 'stud' was a rescue. just because it's intact doesn't been it should be bred! Scary stuff there. REALLY scary stuff!!


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## biancasmom (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the replies. My breeder wasnt the one who owned the rescue that became the stud.. her friend was.. i saw his picture tho and he was very cute....

in my opinion, as long as the breeder takes good care of the dogs, i do not see the issue with the dog being pet quality rather than show quality. Im not looking to show my dog. I wasn't looking to buy a show dog... 

i know that my breeder takes good care of all her dogs and gets them all the vaccinnations and health checks she needs to. In fact when my puppy had her first shot.. the vet put in her leg instead of her neck muscle and we found out later thats a bad place for smaller dogs.. well with all her brothers and sisters bumping into her, it caused her to be in pain and she was up all night uncomfortable and my breeder stayed up with hr comforting her giving her some medicine to help her.... I dont know if you have someone with champion lines breeding.. if they would do that.. When i think of champions, i dont think of family pets.. i mean my breeder had the puppy's playpen in her kitchen! 

Im probably going to get yelled at for saying this.. but I dont think responsible breeders of family pets are sooo bad. Yes I will agree puppy mills suck and I would never buy from a pet shop.. but without the so-called back yard breeders.. I dont think our little maltese would have as many unique qualities as they do. My Bianca has a little lemoning on her ears.. i don't care, i think it gives her character. None of the other dogs had that. 

janie


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (biancasmom @ Aug 14 2008, 08:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619530


> Thanks for all the replies. My breeder wasnt the one who owned the rescue that became the stud.. her friend was.. i saw his picture tho and he was very cute....
> 
> in my opinion, as long as the breeder takes good care of the dogs, i do not see the issue with the dog being pet quality rather than show quality. Im not looking to show my dog. I wasn't looking to buy a show dog...
> 
> ...


I understand where you are coming form, really I do!

I mentioned the stud being a rescue because while your breeder didn't rescue the dog then breed it, she still chose to use him as a stud. This concerned me because there is no way of knowing that the stud doesn't have genetic issues, etc which could be passed along to your pup. you will be the one responsible for the vet bills, not her. 

And one thing that has always bothered me is when people say they 'rescued' a dog and then turn around and use it for breeding purposes. 

You asked a question and it was answered, although it might not have been the answer you were looking for! Sorry for that. Just enjoy your baby because that is the only thing that really matters. Dont' worry about the lemon on the ears, a majority of maltese have that.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

biancasmom, 

No offense intended here, but I don't think you understand the information that has been provided to you by people who know what they are talking about. I'll give you my take on it. I'm not a breeder, I'm just a puppy mommy who had a puppy mill dog and who pet sat a dog who was from a backyard breeder. 

A backyard breeder doesn't work to improve the breed by studying the breed, selective breeding, and medical testing. Their indiscriminate breeding will catch up to them eventually. The Maltese breed does have its breed specific health problems that show breeders are very aware of, but backyard breeders are not, or do not care. Good reputable show breeders who are in the business of showing and breeding dogs are very careful about maintaining the health of the breed, as well as the breed standard in appearance and temperament. Not only do they do this because they love the breed, but they'd be out of business if they didn't. Backyard breeders do not have this level of expertise because they don't have to have it. Yes, they may love their dogs. But all they have to do is find a stud or a bitch and breed them and sell the puppies. Not only are they degenerating the breed standard, they may be unaware that they are passing down a genetic disease that will cause a prospective puppy owner thousands of dollars in medical bills during the life of the dog, and untold emotional heartache. That is totally irresponsible, IMO, and should be avoided at all costs. Yes, puppies of show breeders sometimes have medical issues, but you really do not know what you are getting when you buy from a backyard breeder and they should not be supported. I don't even want to go into the mental health of dogs from backyard breeders who know nothing about socialization or desensitizing to sounds, lights, etc. I know someone who had to rehome their backyard-bred dog due to its behavior problems. My friend is still crying over this heartache after 2 months, and the new owner has to spend a lot of money on therapy for the poor dog. That is just one of many sad stories about backyard breeders. 

If a person buys a puppy from a show breeder, that does not necessarily mean he is buying a "show dog." Show breeders sell many pet quality puppies who for some reason or another, are not going to be shown. 

I really hope you take the time to thoroughly read all of the information provided to you on this forum about backyard breeders and change your mind about them because they are doing absolutely nothing to protect the health and welfare of future generations of dogs. Believe me, the reason why there is so much animal cruelty and neglect in this country is mainly due to backyard breeders and puppy mills.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

My Joplin came from a very caring BYB. Her medical bills were over 5K before she was a year old.

Samantha and Frankie also came from a "caring" BYB. Sammie passed away just short of her 2nd birthday,
with thousands in medical costs.

LBB came from a BYB. Born blind, with high-grade luxating patella. 

With the overwhelming number of dogs in shelters and rescues, I see no valid reason to breed, unless
you are showing, testing, and bettering the breed. Even when doing that, I expect the breeder to support
rescues and shelters.

As far as the stud being a rescue. I'm at a loss for words on that one. :huh: 

By the way. Excellent post Marj ~ :rockon:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Lady is a rescue, but from a backyard breeder. Her vet bills and medications cost about *$5,000 a year *now. :w00t: 

Nikki explained it very well. Backyard breeders may be wonderful and loving and spoil their puppies, but if you start with dogs who are not good representatives of the breed, know nothing about genetics, and put them together, it's a disaster waiting to happen. 

Since backyard breeders produce the majority of purebred dogs, not puppy mills, the blame for most of the health problems in Maltese lies squarely on their shoulders IMO.

Health is the most important factor, but if you choose a Maltese, you also want it to grow up to look like one. Most of the Maltese I see around here only barely resemble a Maltese. I met a woman in Petsmart a few weeks ago with a Maltese that looked more like a Shih Tsu. Buffy had to weigh in the teens and had lemon spots all over her. I met Rags in my vet's office. He also weighed in his teens, had lemon spots all over his body and had curly hair like a poodle. It even felt like a poodle's coat. His owner kept it long and he had dreadlocks!

Here is a great explanation of show vs. pet quality from Foxstone Maltese:

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/show_vs_pet.htm


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Aug 14 2008, 03:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619600


> Lady is a rescue, but from a backyard breeder. Her vet bills and medications cost about *$5,000 a year *now. :w00t:
> 
> Nikki explained it very well. Backyard breeders may be wonderful and loving and spoil their puppies, but if you start with dogs who are not good representatives of the breed, know nothing about genetics, and put them together, it's a disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> ...



You are correct about the look of the breed. Most of the Maltese that attended the meetup this past Saturday were *much* bigger than my Nikki. (I got her from a show breeder.) I know Nikki is only 9 months old, but there was a 6 month old puppy who was much bigger than Nikki. They were all very cute, but many of them didn't look like purebred Maltese. 

I've met some backyard breeders who were ignorant of correct breeding and have a "pride thing" going. They talk about breeding their AKC registered dogs because they're soo gorgeous, and they want to make pretty puppies to show people how great their dog is. 

The Bichon that I used to keep was from a backyard breeder and he was much bigger than the Bichon breed standard, with a much longer nose. He had behavioral issues from day 1 and is 5 years old now. He is seeing a behaviorist.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Marj, I copied that link you provided from Foxstone below so no one will miss it:



*<span style="color:#000000">"I don't want a show dog, I only want a pet." I hear this particular statement time and time again. Honestly, when buying from a reputable breeder there can be very little difference between the two. Reputable breeders should always have one goal...the betterment of the breed. This does not mean that every puppy in a litter is show quality but that is what a reputable breeder strives for. The puppies that do not go into the show ring are what reputable breeders place as pets. This does not mean the puppy is sub-standard or of poor quality....it just means that there is something about the puppy the the breeder does not want to keep in the breeding / show dog program. It could be something as simple as a too laid back personality or it may just be the wrong sex. Maybe the pigment is not as dark as the breeder had hoped or possibly the bite of the puppy is not what the breeder wants to keep in their breeding program. There are many reasons why a puppy born into a show dog breeder's home may be let go to a pet home. </span>**<span style="color:#000000">"Why do I want to buy a puppy from a show breeder.......I only want a pet." If you are wanting a pet Maltese, you already have an idea as to what a Maltese is supposed to look like. The AKC Maltese Standard is the reputable breeder's guide to a perfect dog. The reason that breeders show their dogs is easy. The original reason that AKC started having shows was so that breeders could compare their breeding stock to other breeder's breeding stock. There is no better way to learn if their dogs fit within the standard than to show them and have them compared to other representatives of the breed shown by other breeders. They also get a better understanding of the required structure and make-up of that particular breed, in this case the Maltese. When breeders do not show their dogs, how do they know that their dogs even fit within the standard? If a breeder does not show how can that breeder know that they have show quality puppies?</span>*

*<span style="color:#000000">







I may be totally off the wall here, but in my opinion, there should be very little difference between a show dog and a pet when buying from a reputable breeder. It should still be a nice representative of the breed that it is supposed to represent. The show picture on the left is of Vanity, the day she became a champion.








The picture on the right is of Vanity as a "pet" after her show career was over. She loved being a show dog and she loves being a pet, especially since she is Queen Bee here at the house. </span>*

*<span style="color:#000000">"It doesn't have to be perfect, I just want a pet." This statement is usually followed by, I want good dark pigment, a silky straight ice white coat, good bite, short muzzle, level top line, and 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 pounds with an outgoing personality. The person, in fact, is describing the perfect dog that we as show breeders are all striving to produce. </span>*

*<span style="color:#000000">When buying from reputable breeders there can be very little difference between show quality and pet quality! The key word here being reputable. Please remember that not every Maltese Breeder out there is breeding Maltese within the standard which is 7 pounds and under with 4 to 6 pounds preferred. Nor do some of these breeders care that they are not breeding within the standard because they just want to sell "pets". This would be fine if a big majority of these dogs at least looked like the breed they are supposed to be representing. Sadly, some of these so called pets can weigh up to 15 pounds and more, plus they have been known to have longer muzzles with curlier or cottony hair and just barely resemble a Maltese.</span>*

* So if you truly have your heart set on a Maltese that looks like a Maltese, your best chance of getting the dog of your dreams is from a reputable Maltese breeder. These reputable Maltese breeders are usually very active is showing their dogs in some fashion.....please note here that you still need to do your homework because, as in every aspect of life, there can be a bad apple in the bunch. *

<div align='center'>*Good luck in your search for your next Maltese puppy........
May the puppy be happy, healthy, and exactly 
what you were hoping and looking for!!!!*


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

That's great! Sharon/Foxstone is a member here (Vanitysmom is her username) and has given us permission to reprint or copy anything from her website.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Just wanted to make sure that we don't give the impression that purebreds are healthier than other dogs. Both purebreds and mutts can be healthy and unhealthy. In fact, most articles I've read recently have stated that there are increased risks of genetic disorders in purebreds because of the small gene pool. 




Joy


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Joy, many byb's breed purebreds so of course you can get
unhealthy purebreds when not bred with study and proper
breeding (pedigrees). As for mixed being healthy - we forget
just how many mixed breeds are in all the local shelters, 
county shelters and kill shelters. They often have personality
traits not suited for homes or multiple health problems. We
just don't hear about these as we do when a purebred
is found to be ill. The odds of getting a problem pup from a 
conscientious breeder are very slim compared to backyard breeders and mixed breed breeders.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

This summarizes what I'm trying to get at. It's from a Petplace.com article titled "Mixed Or Purebred: Which Is Right For You"

*Healthy and Fit

Purebred dogs are specifically bred to other dogs of the same breed. This selective breeding has led to some small genetic pools, which results in an increased risk of certain genetic disorders. German shepherds and St. Bernard's have a tendency to suffer from hip dysplasia, a degenerative disease that causes lameness, while Dalmatians have a tendency toward deafness and urinary stones. Typically, responsible breeders are aware of these potential problems and have diligently worked to reduce the risk. However, generally speaking, purebred dogs are more prone to certain illnesses than mixed breed dogs.

The mixed breed dog tends to have less genetic disorders. A testament to "hybrid vigor," dogs developed by mixing genetic material from a variety of breeds usually end up with more stamina and are generally a hardier group of canines*.


Here's a link to the article:

PetPlace.com Article


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (CuteCosyNToy @ Aug 14 2008, 07:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619683


> The odds of getting a problem pup from a
> conscientious breeder are very slim compared to backyard breeders and mixed breed breeders.[/B]



Yep, I agree 100% :thumbsup:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

The thing not to be confused about is "hybrid vigor" in designer dogs. That myth is often used as a marketing ploy. It is simply untrue. When you take two breeds who share similar genetic problems like liver shunts, luxating patellas, etc. in both Yorkies and Maltese and make Morkies, the risk of passing these conditions on is just as high. Since reputable breeders don't intentionally breed mixes, Morkies, Maltipoos, etc are being bred by people who don't health test, are using poor quality dogs as breeding stock, etc.

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/poodogs.html


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Here is a very good article on the myth of hybrid vigor (and why cross-bred dogs are not really hybrids):

http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/hybridvigor.pdf


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't want other pet quality owners and reputable breeders of show quality dogs that have provided pet quality pups to us to feel put down by an earlier posting about all dogs of reputable breeders conforming to the standards. I do not think that is reasonable to expect.

Hopefully, those of us who do feel we have purchased from a truly reputable breeder, and did "describe" a perfect, show dog, knew from the get-go that the "pet quality" puppy we could afford and could love just as much as any show-quality dog was not going to meet all criteria for a show dog. I certainly did, although we do not always know at the time of purchase exactly WHICH traits will not conform to standard. If anyone states that a reputable show breeder should expect to have and sell show-quality dogs to those of us who specifically request "pet quality" that is just unreasonable. We do not expect that; if we do get a puppy that turns out to meet all show quality criteria, what a waste of a show dog that would be! I would hate to waste my loving mommy-hood and spoiling my "baby" and keeping his coat clipped so that he can run and play in the yard on a dog that could have been a trained champion! Or a top Champion Stud!

My point is: Nobody can have ALL champion quality puppies no matter that all lines going into the last several generations were champions. Not all dogs/puppies or children are going to be perfect. That is why there are so many people like me that truly love the breed, want a "baby" to love and spoil and to never worry about training to show or breeding issues. 

My dog's fault? The only one I have found: he weighs 9 lbs. In all other aspects that I am aware, as far as the standard goes, he meets or exceeds almost all criteria, (well, other than training; I could have done better at disciplining him, and haven't given up trying ! :blush: ) I stand by my breeder and know for a fact she is not a BYB. Her job is breeding, raising, training, showing and WINNING, and has many Champions in this forum.

Cyndi


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Actually, in Maltese, it is not unreasonable to see a petted out show quality dogs, males in particular. As a matter of fact, my current working kids are just that - show quality that got placed in a performance home. I specifically purchase show quality dogs to excel in performance because proper structure is essential to "perfect" jumping skills, endurance, joint stability, etc. You see female show quality petted out for small size. 

If your breeder really knows their lines, they can tell you what faults your pup has and why they are being petted out. Most often it is things that do not affect your dog as a pet - a front that is too close, lack of pigment, missing teeth/off bite, tail set off, etc. 

Hybrid vigor for the most part is a myth. Most mixed breed dogs in the U.S. have at least one visibly prominent breed. A labrador and a rottie just doubles up on joint problems and cancer. A labrador and a poodle doubles up on joint problems, eye problems, and allergies. When dogs are truly naturally selected (ie sled dogs), I do think you have a healthier dog. But dealing with most pets in the U.S., it is a crapshoot. If you are looking for a rescue, focus on finding a temperament that is best for you and make yourself aware of problems common in the breeds you see. 

BTW, I have some exceptionally bred Maltese who have completely random, non-breed-related health problems. Sh1t happens. If you own dogs, expect to encounter it at some point.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (tamizami @ Aug 14 2008, 07:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619715


> Here is a very good article on the myth of hybrid vigor (and why cross-bred dogs are not really hybrids):
> 
> http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/hybridvigor.pdf[/B]



Very good link, Tami. Thank you for that. :rockon: 

Hey, Tami, I hope you're well. We love you, and think of you daily :grouphug:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Aug 14 2008, 09:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619737


> I don't want other pet quality owners and reputable breeders of show quality dogs that have provided pet quality pups to us to feel put down by an earlier posting about all dogs of reputable breeders conforming to the standards. I do not think that is reasonable to expect.
> 
> Hopefully, those of us who do feel we have purchased from a truly reputable breeder, and did "describe" a perfect, show dog, knew from the get-go that the "pet quality" puppy we could afford and could love just as much as any show-quality dog was not going to meet all criteria for a show dog. I certainly did, although we do not always know at the time of purchase exactly WHICH traits will not conform to standard. If anyone states that a reputable show breeder should expect to have and sell show-quality dogs to those of us who specifically request "pet quality" that is just unreasonable. We do not expect that; if we do get a puppy that turns out to meet all show quality criteria, what a waste of a show dog that would be! I would hate to waste my loving mommy-hood and spoiling my "baby" and keeping his coat clipped so that he can run and play in the yard on a dog that could have been a trained champion! Or a top Champion Stud!
> 
> ...


I'm confused by your post. I must have missed it because I didn't see a post in this thread that implied that all dogs from show breeders, even pet quality, always conform to standard? I don't think that anyone here would expect every single dog from a show breeder to be perfect, and pet quality dogs to conform to breed standard. The original poster was asking what the problem was with backyard breeders and the posters explained how a show breeder will breed the dogs to conform to the standard, but that doesn't mean every dog _will_ conform.

I personally wanted a Maltese because of it's size and its temperament. I wasn't looking for perfection, I wanted a pet. I really don't care that my dog doesn't conform to breed standard. I didn't buy her to show her. 

But when I am in a room full of Maltese dogs, I am very glad that my dog looks like a Maltese, and acts like a Maltese, because that is what I looked for, and that is what I paid for. 

As opposed to a dog that I think might be a Maltese, but might not be, because there's no record of lineage, and no discretion in breeding.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Mixed Breeds/Hybrid Vigor Versus Purebreds is highly debatable. That's why I chose to post the link to the Mixed or Purebred: Which Is Right For You article. I've seen both sides state the opposing view is a myth and that's why I chose to quote an article from a reputable source. 

Also, I think we're going off topic and probably should start another thread if both sides of the mixed breed/purebred issue.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Aug 14 2008, 09:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619749


> QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Aug 14 2008, 09:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619737





> I don't want other pet quality owners and reputable breeders of show quality dogs that have provided pet quality pups to us to feel put down by an earlier posting about all dogs of reputable breeders conforming to the standards. I do not think that is reasonable to expect.
> 
> Hopefully, those of us who do feel we have purchased from a truly reputable breeder, and did "describe" a perfect, show dog, knew from the get-go that the "pet quality" puppy we could afford and could love just as much as any show-quality dog was not going to meet all criteria for a show dog. I certainly did, although we do not always know at the time of purchase exactly WHICH traits will not conform to standard. If anyone states that a reputable show breeder should expect to have and sell show-quality dogs to those of us who specifically request "pet quality" that is just unreasonable. We do not expect that; if we do get a puppy that turns out to meet all show quality criteria, what a waste of a show dog that would be! I would hate to waste my loving mommy-hood and spoiling my "baby" and keeping his coat clipped so that he can run and play in the yard on a dog that could have been a trained champion! Or a top Champion Stud!
> 
> ...


I'm confused by your post. I must have missed it because I didn't see a post in this thread that implied that all dogs from show breeders, even pet quality, always conform to standard? I don't think that anyone here would expect every single dog from a show breeder to be perfect, and pet quality dogs to conform to breed standard. The original poster was asking what the problem was with backyard breeders and the posters explained how a show breeder will breed the dogs to conform to the standard, but that doesn't mean every dog _will_ conform.

I personally wanted a Maltese because of it's size and its temperament. I wasn't looking for perfection, I wanted a pet. I really don't care that my dog doesn't conform to breed standard. I didn't buy her to show her. 

But when I am in a room full of Maltese dogs, I am very glad that my dog looks like a Maltese, and acts like a Maltese, because that is what I looked for, and that is what I paid for. 

As opposed to a dog that I think might be a Maltese, but might not be, because there's no record of lineage, and no discretion in breeding.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm confused, too. The article from Foxstone Maltese I posted explained pet quailty from show breeders perfectly IMO.

Did you read it? Nikki pasted it, too.


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 14 2008, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619577


> With the overwhelming number of dogs in shelters and rescues, I see no valid reason to breed, unless
> you are showing, testing, and bettering the breed. Even when doing that, I expect the breeder to support
> rescues and shelters.[/B]


Deb, I think that is the best and clearest explanation I have seen as to why pets shouldn't be bred. What everyone else is saying is true and valid, but I like the simple way you put it. There are byb who love & properly care for their puppies and who aren't in it just for the money. But, as you said, "Why?" Why do it? 

I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes the simpliest explanations are the best, clearest, and most easily understood. Thank you. :grouphug:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (lynnecpa @ Aug 14 2008, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619763


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 14 2008, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619577





> With the overwhelming number of dogs in shelters and rescues, I see no valid reason to breed, unless
> you are showing, testing, and bettering the breed. Even when doing that, I expect the breeder to support
> rescues and shelters.[/B]


Deb, I think that is the best and clearest explanation I have seen as to why pets shouldn't be bred. What everyone else is saying is true and valid, but I like the simple way you put it. There are byb who love & properly care for their puppies and who aren't in it just for the money. But, as you said, "Why?" Why do it? 

I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes the simpliest explanations are the best, clearest, and most easily understood. Thank you. :grouphug:
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree!


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm sorry; I didn't mean to disrupt the thread or to confuse anyone. It was just that when I read this excerp below I felt like addressing:

"It doesn't have to be perfect, I just want a pet." This statement is usually followed by, I want good dark pigment, a silky straight ice white coat, good bite, short muzzle, level top line, and 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 pounds with an outgoing personality. The person, in fact, is describing the perfect dog that we as show breeders are all striving to produce. 

When buying from reputable breeders there can be very little difference between show quality and pet quality! The key word here being reputable. Please remember that not every Maltese Breeder out there is breeding Maltese within the standard which is 7 pounds and under with 4 to 6 pounds preferred. Nor do some of these breeders care that they are not breeding within the standard because they just want to sell "pets". This would be fine if a big majority of these dogs at least looked like the breed they are supposed to be representing. Sadly, some of these so called pets can weigh up to 15 pounds and more, plus they have been known to have longer muzzles with curlier or cottony hair and just barely resemble a Maltese.

So if you truly have your heart set on a Maltese that looks like a Maltese, your best chance of getting the dog of your dreams is from a reputable Maltese breeder. These reputable Maltese breeders are usually very active is showing their dogs in some fashion"

This is the post I was referring to that either confused or irritated other posters. Sorry. I was just trying to comment in my own way, that no matter the heritage of your pet Malt, don't feel that you made a bad choice of a breeder simply because they do not all come out as expected. Your breeder (no matter how experienced, and good) is not psychic and cannot possibly predict every aspect of each puppy's attributes. And my breeder IS very active in breeding, showing and attaining Championships.

Forgive MY ignorance, but I've done what I could to learn prior to and after obtaining Midis. Any advice is welcome. 

Cyndi


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## biancasmom (Jun 24, 2008)

thanks everyone. i didnt take offense and i hope no one took offense at my statements. I did learn something.

thank you
janie


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (lynnecpa @ Aug 14 2008, 10:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619763


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Aug 14 2008, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619577





> With the overwhelming number of dogs in shelters and rescues, I see no valid reason to breed, unless
> you are showing, testing, and bettering the breed. Even when doing that, I expect the breeder to support
> rescues and shelters.[/B]


Deb, I think that is the best and clearest explanation I have seen as to why pets shouldn't be bred. What everyone else is saying is true and valid, but I like the simple way you put it. There are byb who love & properly care for their puppies and who aren't in it just for the money. But, as you said, "Why?" Why do it? 

I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes the simpliest explanations are the best, clearest, and most easily understood. Thank you. :grouphug:
[/B][/QUOTE]



I agree with that statement too.

Janie, I don't know if you've seen any of the shelter euthanasia statistics. They're horrible and that's one of the reasons we are tough on backyard breeders.

Here's a portion of the statistics copied from the Humane Society of the United States site:

Number of cats and dogs entering shelters each year:
6-8 million (HSUS estimate)

*Number of cats and dogs euthanized by shelters each year:
3-4 million (HSUS estimate)*

Number of cats and dogs adopted from shelters each year:
3-4 million (HSUS estimate)


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

The HSUS also estimates that 25% of the dogs in shelters are purebred.

"Up to 10 million healthy animals are killed in U.S. pounds and shelters
every year. The killing could easily be prevented by spaying and neutering. 
Euthanasia is the single largest cause of death for dogs in the U.S. Each 
year 27 million of the animals are born. Five to ten million we classify as 
"surplus" and kill. That's about one million per month. These numbers do not 
include the millions of dead dogs whose bodies we scrape off the streets, or 
the hundreds of thousands of abandoned, severely neglected or abused ones 
who never make it to our shelters to be counted and killed. The five to ten 
million figure represents those we "must" kill because they are unwanted. 

Most of these animals are young and healthy; in fact, it is estimated that a 
majority are less than one year of age. The problem is simple: we have too 
many dogs. Too many for the too few homes available. The solution we have 
opted for is to kill the extras. This solution has been considered 
acceptable by default, as though there were no other way to control the crisis. And we 
spend over $1 billion every year destroying "man's best friend." 

Why is this happening in the United States today? 

*The number one biggest 
contributor to the problem is the backyard breeder not the puppy mills**." *

http://www.adoptarescuepet.org/byb.htm


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (BinnieBee @ Aug 14 2008, 09:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619773


> I'm sorry; I didn't mean to disrupt the thread or to confuse anyone. It was just that when I read this excerp below I felt like addressing:
> 
> "It doesn't have to be perfect, I just want a pet." This statement is usually followed by, I want good dark pigment, a silky straight ice white coat, good bite, short muzzle, level top line, and 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 pounds with an outgoing personality. The person, in fact, is describing the perfect dog that we as show breeders are all striving to produce.
> 
> Cyndi[/B]



Cyndi, I just wanted to address this real quickly before this thread dies. What you listed as traits for a show dog are only the tip of the true show dog, the icing on the cake. Showmanship and movement
are of utmost importance in the ring. Maltese coats can be somewhat disguised as passable or silky, noses can be shortened by the poofing of topknots to some degree, even toplines can be camoflauged. Movement is what judges look for in the down and back and around the ring. It's VERY important as is that special attitude which stands out at a show. So you see, asking for a silky coat, a certain size and pretty head is not really asking for a showdog and it's not unreasonable to ask that of a breeder. She/he may or may not have that at the moment but it's certainly worth striving to find, even in a pet.
Health, of course, is always number one.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

wow, this is a very informative thread!! As everyone knows, I am no way as knowledgeable as the other members on SM. However, I would like to participate in this discussion because I do believe I encountered a BYB in the beginning stages of my research for the perfect Maltese puppy. 

From my personal opinion, I don't think all BYBs are horrible people, some may just be trying to start their careers in breeding, etc, so they are not as well known or established, and may run a smaller breeding program. Everyone starts somewhere. However, what I did not like with my personal experience was that the BYB I encountered tried to sell me a puppy for $3500, which was the price that top tier, very well established breeders charge. I do not see the justification in that, to be honest. 

Do I think that the BYB I encountered was a mean person? No, of course not.I do think that person love the Maltese breed, and probably wants to help improve the breed in his/her breeding program. However, I think or the sake of conscience, integrity and just common sense, BYBs should not be charging the same price as well established, top tier breeders. By doing that, BYBs may jeopardize their reputation and come across as very dishonest, and even manipulative. Just my humble 0.2 cents.


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## Moxie'smom (Dec 16, 2007)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Aug 13 2008, 06:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619300


> Here is a good comparision between backyard breeders and reputable breeders.
> 
> Thr sad reality is that the majority of purebred puppies are produced by backyard breeders, not puppy mills. The AKC found that only 8% of of the dogs they registered were from pet stores/puppy mills. The majority come from backyard and responsible breeders. Backyard breeders are not knowledgable in genetics, don't health test and breed dogs who are not good representations of the standard. As a result, genetic problems like liver shunts, luxating patellas, etc. are common. They also produce dogs that don't look or act like the breed is supposed to.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: rather Great Post..I never saw that, but it really sums up everything.


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

I really like that post. I get so irritated with people who use the excuse that they want to make their money back. It's really sickening! I actually ran into someone with a female Rottie that was intent on breeding her because the spent $250 on her. $250 is quite cheap, even for a BYB Rottie in my area. I paid $400 for Harley(BYB), plus another $500 for parvo treatment. I got him b/c I wanted a loving companion and he has surpassed my expectations. 


QUOTE (Moxie'sMom @ Aug 20 2008, 11:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=621982


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Aug 13 2008, 06:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=619300





> Here is a good comparision between backyard breeders and reputable breeders.
> 
> Thr sad reality is that the majority of purebred puppies are produced by backyard breeders, not puppy mills. The AKC found that only 8% of of the dogs they registered were from pet stores/puppy mills. The majority come from backyard and responsible breeders. Backyard breeders are not knowledgable in genetics, don't health test and breed dogs who are not good representations of the standard. As a result, genetic problems like liver shunts, luxating patellas, etc. are common. They also produce dogs that don't look or act like the breed is supposed to.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: rather Great Post..I never saw that, but it really sums up everything.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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