# URGENT need some advice



## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

I just got off the phone with a breeder in KS who has a tiny and I mean tiny female, that if her vet check comes back ok she would like to sell to me. If I choose not to purchase her she as well as some others will be going to a dog auction in OK. Has anyone ever heard of a dog auction for breeders? This is supposed to take place in September. The breeder is not online and will have to paper mail me pics of the little girl. According to her the female was the runt, and she inst sure if she is even healthy enough for sale, she said to be honest she thought the pup would of died by now. But, she said she was a fighter and is fattening right up. At 10 weeks she fits in a dixi cup. Could I be setting myself up for heartache here? I dont care about size, I never requested a tiny dog, only one that was easygoing and had a good personality, and above all healthy. She also isnt sure if the pup would make it in shipping and recomends I come and picke her up. I live aprox. ten hours away. I know this breeder from other dealings. She actually took in alot of the dogs from the puppymill that was closed where my Boo came from. This pup is a distant sister to mine and I would love to give her a good home...Im just worried about this puppy/dog auction thing and if I get the little girl will I be in over my head? Im allready attached, I have allready named her... and I havent even seen her







. I thought of a name for her and everything, I feel even more obligated to get her now that she may go to doggy auction. Should I run now or do I go get this pup?


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I just got off the phone with a breeder in KS who has a tiny and I mean tiny female, that if her vet check comes back ok she would like to sell to me. If I choose not to purchase her she as well as some others will be going to a dog auction in OK. Has anyone ever heard of a dog auction for breeders? This is supposed to take place in September. The breeder is not online and will have to paper mail me pics of the little girl. According to her the female was the runt, and she inst sure if she is even healthy enough for sale, she said to be honest she thought the pup would of died by now. But, she said she was a fighter and is fattening right up. At 10 weeks she fits in a dixi cup. Could I be setting myself up for heartache here? I dont care about size, I never requested a tiny dog, only one that was easygoing and had a good personality, and above all healthy. She also isnt sure if the pup would make it in shipping and recomends I come and picke her up. I live aprox. ten hours away. I know this breeder from other dealings. She actually took in alot of the dogs from the puppymill that was closed where my Boo came from. This pup is a distant sister to mine and I would love to give her a good home...Im just worried about this puppy/dog auction thing and if I get the little girl will I be in over my head? Im allready attached, I have allready named her... and I havent even seen her
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I just got a PM for someone who read your post, and they are concerned for you and this pup. I was asked to make a comment.
Yes, there are puppy auctions. I posted something on this just last week. The people who frequent them to make purchases for dogs to breed, are in my opinion the lowest of the low, except for perhaps the people selling them. They go just to buy bodies or puppy making machines. Most know absolutely nothing about the dog's health or pedigree. Many of the dogs sold in auction are those who are of no use to the original breeder. I have had crossposts from some of my rescue groups where AKC champions have been included in these auctions, as they have been in the mills and gotten up in age so are disposable. Many times, rescues go to buy these dogs to keep them from being bred, but there is some questions as to whether they are helping the matter or just running up the price and putting money into the puppymiller's hands.
Now, as to the pup you are looking at: You are dealing with someone who went to one of these auctions for puppymill dogs and purchased dogs for breeding. I dare say she didn't do any health testing after she got the dogs. I would also question whether her motivation was anymore than just making $$$.
As for the little pup you are hoping to get, I would not get this pup under any circumstances unless the vet ran complete bloodwork to check for liver shunt and other health issues. Recently, I heard of one small litter that the vet suspected had a problem with a growth hormone. This should be checked. This pup needs to have a clearance on her heart. I dare say that this pup has an open fontanel. It's possible that she has more than one opening. If this is the case, she could be hydrocephalic. A pup at ten weeks that fits into a Dixie cup sounds like nothing but heartache to me. 
As for the breeder, I would like to send her to the auction, put her in a cage, and use a cattle prod (hot stick) on her. 
Please reconsider getting this pup. If this breeder has any kind of heart at all, talk with her about what she is doing, and what she might be putting this pup through. It's doubtful that she does have anything in her heart though, as she is going to put this poor pup up for auction to the highest bidder.


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)




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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Please listen to Happy B. You are setting yourself up for heartache if you get involved with this woman and this puppy.

A puppy this small is not normal. She could have undersized organs and all the problems that go with dwarf animals like being unable to regulate their own blood sugar. Often life expectancy isn't more than a couple of years.

I cannot imagine that this woman intends to put this dog up for auction.


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## Jacki (Jul 13, 2006)

I think Faye has given you very sound advice here. But I can imagine how your heart is going out to this little girl right now. Poor lil' baby.







Let us know how things turn out!


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## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

She has seven to be exact that she is putting up for auction, I dint even know what a doggy auction was till five minutes ago. For some reason I want to intervine...I want to save this one. I know im crazy







and most people would say you cant save them all, but oh how I want to. Now that I know what a doggy auction is... How could people do that? Ok so we could be looking at several bad health problems... If money was no object lets say could she lead a normal life...if taken care of properly? I would rather give her the best year of her life and she pass away in the best of conditions then have her go to some auction and be used as a...could a dog that small even have puppys? Now Im really sad.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Please listen to Happy B. This lady sounds like she is setting you up by mentioning the puppy auction. I know that you feel awful about this; any of us would. But let me tell you something.....a sick dog brings heartache like you can not imagine. My puppy was healthy as can be, but 6 months of her illness nearly wiped me out emotionally. You could be looking at a much longer road than you can even imagine. Please, please, please, do not allow yourself to be emotionally blackmailed and give yourself time to make an informed decision.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

So sad...I don't have any advice to share b/c most people wouldn't agree w/my opinion, so I will just say that I wish you the best of luck w/your decision. You will be the one who has to live with what you decide in the end....nobody else. I will say an extra prayer for you as well as the pup and the other six...and the others at the auction...and the lady taking them...oh man, my prayer will be long tonight...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> She has seven to be exact that she is putting up for auction, I dint even know what a doggy auction was till five minutes ago. For some reason I want to intervine...I want to save this one. I know im crazy
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I know you are sad. This woman has done a masterful job of playing on your emotions to make a buck. Shame on her.

You could be looking at spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a puppy who, as you say, may only live a year. Even if money is no object, please ask yourself if this is the best use of that money if you really want to make a difference. A donation to a Maltese rescue group would help save many, many lives and you would be giving your money to a worthwhile organization, not someone who is trying to scam you.


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## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

I know all of you are so right, I need to turn my head. I just cant belive all the hard work that was put into closing that puppymill that Boo came from was for naught. I feel like its a slap in the face...to think that I thought those dogs were off to a better home only to find out that they are right back into the same thing. I feel horriable







Now this little one....I know the right choice....I think I have knowen it all along, perhaps I just needed to hear it from my sm friends. She jsut seemed so instant that I take this little girl. You see, When Boos mill was closed she was one of the key players that made the mill close its doors, we worked together on that project for almost six months, I only contacted her to see how she was doing and how the furbabies were doing and if she had found most of them forever homes. I happened to mention that I was tenativly looking for another furbaby and she jumped instantly on this wee one. When she started talking about this auction thing she acted as though I would know all about it, and wondering where the conversation was heading I pretended to know excatly what it was







. You think you know someone.







I dont have the funds to take care of one that could be so sick but I know people that do.... But you all are so so.... even though it hurts........right. Thankyou so much gals


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I know all of you are so right, I need to turn my head. I just cant belive all the hard work that was put into closing that puppymill that Boo came from was for naught. I feel like its a slap in the face...to think that I thought those dogs were off to a better home only to find out that they are right back into the same thing. I feel horriable
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I know it is hard not to take this baby in, but if you buy her, she will probably be making a lot more than she would at the auction. This woman will then be that much more motivated to raise more of these tiny one, and the cycle goes on. 
The undersized pups can happen to anyone. The difference in this woman and a reputable breeder is that the reputable breeder would have all kinds of tests run and keep the pup until it was large enough to safely be placed in a good home. I would imagine the auction the pups are going to is one where they are resold to pet stores.
Last week, I received information from another Maltese site I'm on that told of an auction that was held yesterday. I have done a copy/paste to show you that some of these dogs from puppymills are champions. There were a number of Maltese being auctioned also.

SOUTHWEST AUCTION SERVICE

BOB & CHADD HUGHES

P.O. BOX 534, WHEATON, MISSOURI 64874

PHONE: (417) 652-7540 FAX: (417) 652-7019

CELL PHONE: (417) 236-5888, E-MAIL: [email protected] 

WEB SITE: www.onlinepetauction.com

MEMBER OF NAA, MPAA AND STATE & NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL PET PRODUCER ORGANIZATIONS!!

USDA LICENSE NO. 43-B-0386 MODA LICENSE NO. DL-03864

LICENSED AUCTIONEERS “YOUR CANINE CONNECTION TO THE PET INDUSTRY”

SALE DATE: SATURDAY, AUGUST 26th, 2006!!

STARTING TIME: 10:00 A.M. (EQUIPMENT SALE STARTS AT 9:30 A.M.)

LOCATION: WHEATON, MISSOURI

AT THE SW AUCTION SALE PAVILION! RAIN OR SHINE! SALE INSIDE A TEMPERATURE CONTROLLED FACILITY FOR MAN AND ANIMAL! CONCESSIONS AVAILABLE!

This is a top quality male Shih tzu, comming from Ann McWilliams from Osceola, MO. 


263
MA CH FALLING STAR'S THE WALL STREET JOURNAL TR11081101 2/28/03 073*618*814 
Comments: AKC Reg. Color: Red & White - Throws snow and imperials. He is out of Falling Star Kennels, which sells 
champions between $5,000.00 to $7,500.00 each and breeder pups for $1,500.00


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=245326
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Faye,
I am confused how do some of these breeders sell their champions to puppy/mills.Can you help me with this question?

Thanks,
Andrea~


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I scrolled through the sales coming up for this auctioneer and saw at least one other champion for sale. 

To answer your questions, there are several ways this happens. I know of a well known Maltese breeder who was tricked last year, and now has one of her champions in a puppymill in Georgia. She was led to believe the people were interested in showing. They paid $10,000 for the male. She is a much larger breeder than you would expect, and she doesn't monitor where her dogs go that well. So, that is one way....She also sold another dog into a questionable situation that she had purchased from another country and earned a championship on. I believe she sold that one for $15,000.
Then, there are those who actually raise dogs, finish their championship on them and sell them to other breeders. I've seen more than one of the members here talk of buying from a person they thought was a show kennel, but in essence, what they did was purchase a champion from a breeder who had finished using it, and didn't care that it went to this type place. Sometime they don't produce what the breeder expected as far as quality, and they just want to recoup their show expenses. Some just want to make money, and show and finish dogs for this purpose. Some breeders see the ten thousand or so they can get for one of these dogs, and they don't have any qualms about selling them.
Then, there are the ones who get older and are sold from one place to another until they end up in this type situation.
One other way I've seen this happen is when one breeder gets mad at another. I know of one Westie champion who was sold into a puppymill because of a feud, and it was done to embarass the person who had bred the dog. 
In reading the dogs coming up for auction, I saw a number of dogs were imports. Some of the top breeders have sold their lines into other countries. Some of these dogs have been championed in these countries, and they are available for purchase. There is one kennel in Brazil that is known for doing this, and they use a broker in Florida who transports these dogs. 
Just remember that not everyone loves their dogs like we do. Money is the driving force for many, and it would surprise you to see who some of these people are.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

> I scrolled through the sales coming up for this auctioneer and saw at least one other champion for sale.
> 
> To answer your questions, there are several ways this happens. I know of a well known Maltese breeder who was tricked last year, and now has one of her champions in a puppymill in Georgia. She was led to believe the people were interested in showing. They paid $10,000 for the male. She is a much larger breeder than you would expect, and she doesn't monitor where her dogs go that well. So, that is one way....She also sold another dog into a questionable situation that she had purchased from another country and earned a championship on. I believe she sold that one for $15,000.
> Then, there are those who actually raise dogs, finish their championship on them and sell them to other breeders. I've seen more than one of the members here talk of buying from a person they thought was a show kennel, but in essence, what they did was purchase a champion from a breeder who had finished using it, and didn't care that it went to this type place. Sometime they don't produce what the breeder expected as far as quality, and they just want to recoup their show expenses. Some just want to make money, and show and finish dogs for this purpose. Some breeders see the ten thousand or so they can get for one of these dogs, and they don't have any qualms about selling them.
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how sad


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

The almighty dollar.....it does push people to do some interesting things.

Here is a little story about something that happened to me:
I know a person who is striving to breed maltese. She breeds and sells her dogs via ads in the paper, etc. yet she claims a well known maltese as the sire of the pups. After I had purchased my first maltese (not from her) I met her. At that time I had already agreed to purchase my 2nd puppy but had not picked her up. I guess that this lady figured that she could get some quick cash from me by offering to sell me a pup. She called me at home and told me that she had a beautiful "teacup" maltese that was too little to sell to just anyone. She was either going to keep it for herself OR she would be willing to sell it to me for $2500 because she knew that I would have the means to care for it. She told me that this little pup would never be more than 3 to 3.5 pounds and she kept stressing that she wouldn't sell to anyone but me. Little did she know that I was not impressed by that size and was only interested in maltese in the standard weight range. I nicely declined. I have since seen some of her pups and many of them have luxating patellas. On the other hand she raises them in her house and I believe that she loves them. Recently I saw one of her family members and asked about the little pup that I didn't purchase (who is about 2 years old now). The pup has sired several litters of puppies and weighs over 6 pounds! I don't think she was purposely misleading me; but I suspect she needed money and figured that I was buying puppies and I might as well buy one from her. 

Maybe I'm not very trusting but I just feel suspicious of stories that are meant to grab at your heartstrings.......


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> I scrolled through the sales coming up for this auctioneer and saw at least one other champion for sale.
> 
> To answer your questions, there are several ways this happens. I know of a well known Maltese breeder who was tricked last year, and now has one of her champions in a puppymill in Georgia. She was led to believe the people were interested in showing. They paid $10,000 for the male. She is a much larger breeder than you would expect, and she doesn't monitor where her dogs go that well. So, that is one way....She also sold another dog into a questionable situation that she had purchased from another country and earned a championship on. I believe she sold that one for $15,000.
> Then, there are those who actually raise dogs, finish their championship on them and sell them to other breeders. I've seen more than one of the members here talk of buying from a person they thought was a show kennel, but in essence, what they did was purchase a champion from a breeder who had finished using it, and didn't care that it went to this type place. Sometime they don't produce what the breeder expected as far as quality, and they just want to recoup their show expenses. Some just want to make money, and show and finish dogs for this purpose. Some breeders see the ten thousand or so they can get for one of these dogs, and they don't have any qualms about selling them.
> ...










Thank you Faye, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me. Something else to learn,andwatch for.


Andrea~


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I wonder if we should have this thread pinned...there is so much useful information for people to read when considering purchasing a dog. 

Faye, you are a wealth of resource on this subject. It is so difficult to separate our emotions from our common sense judgment. While these dogs will live horrible lives, their "rescue" only helps to complete the cycle. As long as there remains a demand for these dogs, there will be puppy millers willing to fill that demand. Before you buy, do your research and really investigate from where your dog is bred. We do hours of research on a $800 washing machine, and no research on a $2000 dog.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I wonder if we should have this thread pinned...there is so much useful information for people to read when considering purchasing a dog.
> 
> Faye, you are a wealth of resource on this subject. It is so difficult to separate our emotions from our common sense judgment. While these dogs will live horrible lives, their "rescue" only helps to complete the cycle. As long as there remains a demand for these dogs, there will be puppy millers willing to fill that demand. Before you buy, do your research and really investigate from where your dog is bred. We do hours of research on a $800 washing machine, and no research on a $2000 dog.[/B]



Thanks,
Sometime, I have to sit on my hands to keep from telling some of the things I do know. 
Just this weekend, I received an email from someone who told me they would not be getting my little girl, but would be getting one from a kennel in Oklahoma. I went online and looked these people up. There was red flags everywhere, but I couldn't very well go back and tell the person that they had just purchased a dog from a large puppymill.


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## josymir (Aug 23, 2006)

I know your heart is telling you to rescue this little girl from the auction, and I too feel terrible that dogs are considered livestock and can be auctioned off. Keep in mind that most good breeders would not auction their dogs or sell their dogs to pet shops. Most good breeders sell directly to individuals so they know where their puppies are at. Please be careful because you might be getting into a bad situation and might end up with a puppy that is not healthy and might not live very long. Not every breeder is caring and loves the dogs they just want to make a profit, these should be avoided. People should trust their instinct and look for the red flags, they are there we just have to look for them. Some of these commercial breeders know the right thing to say so please be savy. 

There are instances were good breeders place puppies into what they thought was a good home and for some reason the dog ends up in the wrong hands. This happens more often than what we would like. It is hard to be a good ethical breeder and it is hard to be a buyer looking for a good puppy. It is tough out there for both sides. 

As far as the sale of champions. I had a male who I finished and was beautiful, he ended up not producing well for me so I neutered him and placed him as a pet with a girl who already had another male from me, so I knew he would have a great home. Other breeders do other things with their champions but I felt that was the right choice for me. Not so great dogs are finished everyday then people go on to breed them and they end up producing not so great dogs then breeders get frustrated and try to sell them and get their investment back but if someone doesn't know quality then they might end up with a very expensive not so great champion.

Again it is tough out there for both sides.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I know your heart is telling you to rescue this little girl from the auction, and I too feel terrible that dogs are considered livestock and can be auctioned off. Keep in mind that most good breeders would not auction their dogs or sell their dogs to pet shops. Most good breeders sell directly to individuals so they know where their puppies are at. Please be careful because you might be getting into a bad situation and might end up with a puppy that is not healthy and might not live very long. Not every breeder is caring and loves the dogs they just want to make a profit, these should be avoided. People should trust their instinct and look for the red flags, they are there we just have to look for them. Some of these commercial breeders know the right thing to say so please be savy.
> 
> There are instances were good breeders place puppies into what they thought was a good home and for some reason the dog ends up in the wrong hands. This happens more often than what we would like. It is hard to be a good ethical breeder and it is hard to be a buyer looking for a good puppy. It is tough out there for both sides.
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Unfortunately, the not so great dog can become a champion when the points are stacked. I love to read the entries for shows. It is amazing that sometime there is only one breeder or handler there with all the dogs. Naturally, that person will manipulate to see that a certain dog wins. Thus, a not so great champion is made.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

Very interesting, ladies. I do not know anything about the show world, so forgive my stupid question...what determines a "top dog"? The number of points they accumulate at various shows? And how do the specality shows figure into that ranking?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Dog show "points" are won by beating X number of dogs in the ring (to put it simply).
Different regions require differing numbers of dogs to make X points (the difference is based on
how many of that breed are shown in that region previously). However, 
all dogs need 15 points and within these 15 points there must be two majors ( two
wins of at least 3 points each) under two different judges to become a champion. 
Some dogs may accumulate
a few more than 15 points by the time they get their majors and their championship.

Is that clear as mud? lol


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## josymir (Aug 23, 2006)

> Very interesting, ladies. I do not know anything about the show world, so forgive my stupid question...what determines a "top dog"? The number of points they accumulate at various shows? And how do the specality shows figure into that ranking?[/B]


Ok, here we go.

First, in order for a dog to attain his championchip he must earn 15 points. Points are based on the number of dogs defeated. Dogs can be entered into 1 of several classes. Classes can be divided according to age, place of birth, or a catch all class. Dogs in each class compete against each other and are given a placement from first to fourth. The first place winner of every class compete against each other and from that they pick a first place winner called Winners Dog and a "runner up" called the Reserve Winner. The same is done with the girls. The Winner male and the winner female are the only 2 that earn points at a show from all the ones entered. So as you can see it is not that easy to earn those stinky points. The Winners male and female in the end compete against each other for the Best of Breed. At that time if there are any Champions they are welcomed to compete against the other 2 for the Best of breed (BOB) title. The BOB goes into the group ring to compete in the group along with all the other breeds in that group. In our case it is the toy group so our BOB Maltese will go in with all the other toy breeds to compete for a group placement which is 1 to 4. The group 1 of every group goes in together for the best in show competition.

To over simplify this the more dogs a dog defeats the more Breed points they accomulate. Breed points? those are different than championship points. The Breed points are simply for the ranking.There is someone who figures out these points. The longer a dog is shown the more breed points it can accumulate and the higher up in the rankings they can go. It is a constant thing so if a dog is retired then they loose their spot and someone else moves in. For example in our breed Thriller was the #1 Maltese in 2004 then he was retired and Marc was the #1 for 2005. Marc is no longer shown in the USA so another dog will move up to #1 for this year. My girl Nicky was #24 in the USA in 2005 and she was only shown a few times. Once she was retired someone else moved into her spot.

To win a specialty, which is a show were only one breed is shown, is an honor simply because it is understood that out of a large number of dogs from your breed you were found to be the best. In an all breed show you might compete against 5 maltese were at a sepcialty you might compete against 15.

Showing dogs, like any other sport, is very political and pref. handlers do get the winning edge. A lot of times it is not about the dog but the person handling the dog. It is very hard to be an owner handler, that is a owner or breeder who handles their own dog (like me). Professional handlers, people who do this for a living, win a big % of the time.

Well, I am sure that you all learned more than what you wanted about showing dogs. I left some details out but that is the short of it.

Feel free to ask questions
Josy


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Since I had a special (Westie) out for two years who was #1, I can tell you how we got to that place. We had four Best in Show wins, and two of those were shows with around 2500 dogs. So, we got points for each of the dogs entered. That put us up there real fast. We earned many Group 1 wins, so we got that number of points for all the terriers entered. For instance, if there were 300 terriers, we would get points for each of those. I think both years we had more than double the points of the second place dog. We got breed at Westminister both times we showed him there. We also broke the record for number of specialty wins. I think the most Westies we ever showed against to win was 118. When my Westie girl was showing, she earned all her points for her championship but that last major, and we would have people pull their dogs to break the major (yes, some people can be ugly), so that it took us a couple months longer to find that last show where there was a major. She ended up with more points than she needed because she was used to help hold points for others, and while it wasn't planned, she beat them. Now, you may ask where all my Westie pups are. There aren't any. I love my Kelsey, but one Westie with all my Maltese is enough. I just enjoyed the show thing with them.

Now, on a funny note, my first Maltese champion was something like #15 or #18 the year he finished. I didn't pay attention to the stats, and when he finished, I cut his hair down. I got a call from my friend and handler after we got our invitation to the Eukanuba Invitational, asking me how fast I could grow it back. She was only joking, as she knew he was retired to the sofa.


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