# Pack Leader vs. Predator article



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Pack Leader or Predator? | Psychology Today


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

interesting article 

thanks for sharing  

Kat


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Good article Jackie. And the last two paragraphs say it all about Cesar Milan. How pathetic of him and scary for the dogs he's supposedly "training."


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

Thanks for posting that!
Good article and that looks like a good website. 
I used to read the magazines.


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## donnad (Aug 22, 2006)

Very interesting article.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks for this. Intimidating a dog into obedience is definitely not a good idea, as this article clearly indicates.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Thanks for this. Intimidating a dog into obedience is definitely not a good idea, as this article clearly indicates.


Completely agree. Alls it does is make the poor dog anxious  They get so much more out of being praised once they understand, postive reinforcement and it works everytime, and gives you a happy self confident baby.

Thanks for the ariticle Jackie.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Thanks, Jackie!! Great article. A couple days ago I saw a new magazine that I hadn't noticed before with a title that had "Cesar" in it. On the front was Cesar with about 5 Maltese! YIKES!


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Great article!! Thanks so much for posting, Jackie!!


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## Moxie'smom (Dec 16, 2007)

good post


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

This was excellent! Thanks for posting this


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## Dogwriter (Jul 3, 2010)

I dunno. Appreciate the post but... I followed more of the author's information, and although I agree with his main premise, I DISAGREE with his malignment of Cesar Millan. I don't think Cesar intimidates dogs, I think he just really loves dogs. Lee Charles Kelly appears to think that by dissing Cesar he can promote his buddy, Kevin Behan. I looked all over Behan's site and couldn't understand his concept of Natural Dog Training, so I searched for it on Amazon. He has really negative reviews. So I still don't know if his brilliant idea is in line with truly "natural" training. What does it mean? Why is it different?

For the record, I do a lot of clicker training (if the dogs haven't been so traumatized before they come to me that they're scared of it). I use all positive reinforcemnet and treats, while redirect or ignore negative behavior. Before Piper, they were always rescues, most of whom I rehomed. I don't use Cesar's poke in the side or the "tchh" sound. :huh:
I think that's pretty close to what this author was trying to say. Maybe.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Dogwriter said:


> I dunno. Appreciate the post but... I followed more of the author's information, and although I agree with his main premise, I DISAGREE with his malignment of Cesar Millan. I don't think Cesar intimidates dogs, I think he just really loves dogs. Lee Charles Kelly appears to think that by dissing Cesar he can promote his buddy, Kevin Behan. I looked all over Behan's site and couldn't understand his concept of Natural Dog Training, so I searched for it on Amazon. He has really negative reviews. So I still don't know if his brilliant idea is in line with truly "natural" training. What does it mean? Why is it different?
> 
> For the record, I do a lot of clicker training (if the dogs haven't been so traumatized before they come to me that they're scared of it). I use all positive reinforcemnet and treats, while redirect or ignore negative behavior. Before Piper, they were always rescues, most of whom I rehomed. I don't use Cesar's poke in the side or the "tchh" sound. :huh:
> I think that's pretty close to what this author was trying to say. Maybe.


 
:goodpost:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The friend vs. predator is based on research in the field of ethology. From this field also comes the scientific evidence disproving alpha theory. It gets pretty technical pretty quickly, but if you're truly interested I'd study it further.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

what a great article, jackie, thanks for posting!


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## thach8 (Nov 28, 2007)

Poor dogs that he scares into obedience. Unfortunately, a lot of dog trainers seem to subscribe to his ideas. We are looking for some dog training help in Toronto, but we can't find anwayone who relies primarily on positive reinforcement. There was one place that specialized in little dogs and relied on positive reinforcement but it seems to be closed now. 
We really want to find a trainer for Diamond who would only use positive reinforcement and only socialize her with small dogs at first. 
She is a great pup except she has what looks like some on-leash aggression to other dogs and she barks too often when people are in the hallway at our condo building. We would like a bit of help, but it seems like Caesar Milan has ruined dog trainers.


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## LinzFair (Oct 10, 2010)

thach8 said:


> Poor dogs that he scares into obedience. Unfortunately, a lot of dog trainers seem to subscribe to his ideas. We are looking for some dog training help in Toronto, but we can't find anwayone who relies primarily on positive reinforcement. There was one place that specialized in little dogs and relied on positive reinforcement but it seems to be closed now.
> We really want to find a trainer for Diamond who would only use positive reinforcement and only socialize her with small dogs at first.
> She is a great pup except she has what looks like some on-leash aggression to other dogs and she barks too often when people are in the hallway at our condo building. We would like a bit of help, but it seems like Caesar Milan has ruined dog trainers.


I am Canadian too, but living in the US  My maltese Mika is an amazing dog, but she too is aggressive when on a leash towards other dogs. She is fine off leash and I socialize her with other dogs on a daily basis at the dog park, but I wish I could get this leash aggression under control !


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

thach8 said:


> Poor dogs that he scares into obedience. Unfortunately, a lot of dog trainers seem to subscribe to his ideas. We are looking for some dog training help in Toronto, but we can't find anwayone who relies primarily on positive reinforcement. There was one place that specialized in little dogs and relied on positive reinforcement but it seems to be closed now.
> We really want to find a trainer for Diamond who would only use positive reinforcement and only socialize her with small dogs at first.
> She is a great pup except she has what looks like some on-leash aggression to other dogs and she barks too often when people are in the hallway at our condo building. We would like a bit of help, but it seems like Caesar Milan has ruined dog trainers.


Dog Training Toronto and Obedience using Positive Reinforcement that place looks decent if they are anywhere near you. They even have a couple of articles on the issue you mentioned


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## sunnycleveland (Apr 3, 2010)

I have the same issue - I am looking for a good trainer for our dog; I found one that was highly recommended by a friend but he was too dominant, I've never seen Fiona so stressed. She was shaking the whole time. Some of what he said seemed to make sense but I did not like the "corrections" method - I have yet to find a positive reinforcement trainer in the area.... everyone seems to love and use Cesar Milan's way



thach8 said:


> Poor dogs that he scares into obedience. Unfortunately, a lot of dog trainers seem to subscribe to his ideas. We are looking for some dog training help in Toronto, but we can't find anwayone who relies primarily on positive reinforcement. There was one place that specialized in little dogs and relied on positive reinforcement but it seems to be closed now.
> We really want to find a trainer for Diamond who would only use positive reinforcement and only socialize her with small dogs at first.
> She is a great pup except she has what looks like some on-leash aggression to other dogs and she barks too often when people are in the hallway at our condo building. We would like a bit of help, but it seems like Caesar Milan has ruined dog trainers.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

A good place to start searching for a trainer (and to learn about how to find a good trainer) is Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources


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## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

That's a very interesting and thought provoking article, Jackie. Thanks.


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## Aarianne (Jul 22, 2005)

I was confused at first as he was referencing "Coren's article" but I hadn't seen him link it or state the title of the article. (Maybe I missed a link somewhere?) After clicking around on the website, I assume he's referring to this one? 

Canine Dominance: Is the Concept of the Alpha Dog Valid? | Psychology Today

I've been so fond of Coren since I discovered his show Good Dog! many years ago. I wish he had somehow become really popular instead of Millan. 

Anyway, thanks so much for sharing that with us!


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Thanks for posting. I copied the article and the one above from Aarianne for some pro CM folks I know.


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