# Two types of maltese?



## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

Do you think there are two diffent types of maltese.
The reason I'm asking is because Ive seen lots like chelsey and other like Mariah's
Not the fact that one is silky and one is cotton. I mean one has a smaller bone structor and the other kind is more stridy built. They could be the same size but ther structor is different.

Just wondering.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

There are many styles of Maltese as breeder interpret the standard slightly differently and many are bred by unscrupulous people. Extremely fine boned dogs are not preferable and a reputable breeder breeds a dog to have some substance.


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## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

Sorry, double posted.....


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## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

I really think it is all in the genetic makeup of the pup. Obviously the pup would be a blend of mom and dad and whatever their genes were. I don't think there are 2 different kinds. In fact, I think if you just go through all of our avatars or through the gallery you'll see MANY different sizes, shapes, builds and coats!! I am sure Marj or JMM or someone that KNOWS breeding can give you a better answer to this question. Isn't is funny how "different" they all are even though they are all suppose to be "Maltese". I can really now start to see that somewhere in Sisse's genetics there HAD to of been Bichon in there because of her size!!







But ain't she cute anyway!!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sisses Momma_@Apr 1 2005, 03:52 PM
> *But ain't she cute anyway!!
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Yes, she is adorable....


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Sisses Momma_@Apr 1 2005, 03:52 PM
> *I really think it is all in the genetic makeup of the pup.  Obviously the pup would be a blend of mom and dad and whatever their genes were.  I don't think there are 2 different kinds.  In fact, I think if you just go through all of our avatars or through the gallery you'll see MANY different sizes, shapes, builds and coats!!  I am sure Marj or JMM or someone that KNOWS breeding can give you a better answer to this question.  Isn't is funny how "different" they all are even though they are all suppose to be "Maltese".  I can really now start to see that somewhere in Sisse's genetics there HAD to of been Bichon in there because of her size!!
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Do you remember the basic genetic lesson with the bell curve? In that theory 50% should be in the middle, with 25% at each extreme. This can happen more in cases where breeders don't know their lines and what the predictibility is in a breeding. This is why we can see different sizes in the same litter. While some good breeders can have an "oops" from time to time, it's not as common. In my three, who are 17 weeks old today, they are within four ounces of each other in weight, and when I let all three run about for play (can't keep them together all the time or they won't have hair), I have to look at them directly in the face to pick out who is who, and even then might mix up two.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I also agree with what everyone said. There is a spectrum of Maltese. Out of my three, two of them will fall under the dainty, cutesy silky coat type (Sparkle and Nibbler). Cookie is slightly different from them being a little larger and more sturdy but beside another Maltese, she would be considered a dainty one too.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Apr 3 2005, 11:37 AM
> *Do you remember the basic genetic lesson with the bell curve?  In that theory 50% should be in the middle, with 25% at each extreme.  This can happen more in cases where breeders don't know their lines and what the predictibility is in a breeding.  This is why we can see different sizes in the same litter.  While some good breeders can have an "oops" from time to time, it's not as common.  In my three, who are 17 weeks old today, they are within four ounces of each other in weight, and when I let all three run about for play (can't keep them together all the time or they won't have hair), I have to look at them directly in the face to pick out who is who, and even then might mix up two.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48544*


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Linebreeding also tends to give you more uniform litter in size and conformation. With outcrosses you tend to get more variety. In kind of looking for a puppy, I'm more interested in an outcross litter because of the bottleneck we're starting to get in the breed. You definately need guidance from an experienced breeder to pick a nice outcross.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I have a different question about the differences we see in the Maltese. When looking for a puppy what do you look for in conformation? I would want to start viewing the puppy at maybe 7-8 wks. and see how it looks at 12 wks. But can you tell at that age if the back will be short or long, straight or low in front, legs right length for body, etc..............or do proportions change a lot from there to adulthood? I've noticed quite a difference in ear set, more 'pricked', on some young puppies and wonder if that changes. Some seem to have higher set ears, which to me looks funny on a Maltese.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Frosty's Mom_@Apr 3 2005, 04:16 PM
> *I have a different question about the differences we see in the Maltese.  When looking for a puppy what do you look for in conformation?  I would want to start viewing the puppy at maybe 7-8 wks. and see how it looks at 12 wks.  But can you tell at that age if the back will be short or long, straight or low in front, legs right length for body, etc..............or do proportions change a lot from there to adulthood?  I've noticed quite a difference in ear set, more 'pricked', on some young puppies and wonder if that changes. Some seem to have higher set ears, which to me looks funny on a Maltese.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48602*


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I hope breeders will jump into this question. I will tell you what I know based on the books I read and what breeders have told me. Very often what you see at 8 weeks is what you will get when the puppy is full grown. I have found that to be true with the Maltese I know. At 8 weeks, they are balanced and then they go grow in different ways and their rear becomes higher or lower, neck changes, head changes etc.

In general, I think you can tell a short or long back pretty early on. None of my kids have short backs or long backs, they are porportionate. At one point, Sparkle looked long back because her legs were short but her legs grew and she looks great now (back to the 8 week old structure). She also went through a stage when she was high in rear but now she is balanced again.

Some Maltese have higher ear sets causing them to stick up when they are puppies. Usually, they will come down when they are older and as the hair grows, it will frame the face. If you look at Sparkle's photo, she has a high ear set. I wasn't used to it at first but now I think it's adorable. I still would prefer a proper ear set.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I'm in the very early learning stage with breeding and showing myself as I've only been at this four years. I will share what I've learned.
My friend, who has been doing this many years says that in the first 24 hours, she does an evaluation on the head. There are things she looks for with ear set, etc. that she sees then. We will see how true this is as she whelped my two who are now three weeks old. 
In the limited experience I've had with raising pups, I've been able to pick some who were the same from birth to adulthood. In a couple other situations I've been wrong because the ugliest pup in the first few weeks, and again at around ten to twelve weeks turned out to be the best. I've also seen other pups that went on to finish who were just down right ugly as a pup. One girl I know who is the "niece" to one of my boys would not have been picked by me even at four or five months, yet, she finished her championship with four majors and only showed five times to get it. By the time she was ready for the ring at ten months, she was, and still is one of the most beautiful Maltese I've seen. Of the three I have here that I'm preparing for the ring, the least impressive one is now the better of the two boys. I was going to pet him out up until he was four months old.
I like to see a pup stacked on the table with its hair wet. Hair can do a lot to cover flaws. Then, if it looks good like this, it should look great with the proper grooming. I learned this the hard way, after I decided against showing one and cut her hair. Now, I could kick myself for not keeping her in coat.


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## sherylmint (Nov 27, 2004)

I have 2 sturdy yet small and one 14 lb that I am not sure is full Maltese. Unless you are going to show or breed your pup I think you should get the one you bond with. Sassy cost a lot and is show quality, so I am told by everyone, but I love Flurry and Benji the same. Flurry and Sassy both were pretty pricy but Benji was very inexpensive, a pound pup and is just as great a pet! I thought he was a coton or shitzu because of his 14 lbs. size and calmer nature. The vet feels he is a Maltese or maltese shitzu mix and about 2 yrs old. I believe the size of Maltese do vary as well as the coat texture. I also believe they are all very beautiful both inside and out.


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## puppylucy (Jan 8, 2005)

i noticed something about the ears too.. like when the ears are kinda facing forward on the head? and they flop down.. is that what the whole high-set thing is orrr is it something else?


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Apr 1 2005, 04:46 PM
> *There are many styles of Maltese as breeder interpret the standard slightly differently and many are bred by unscrupulous people. Extremely fine boned dogs are not preferable and a reputable breeder breeds a dog to have some substance.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48156*


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I think your right. My first puppy missie was very thin boned small face. She had lack of pigment, and was very ill. She looked beuteful, but she did not feel that way. 
the amount of medication she had to take. I always wondered why her nose never turned completly black. That was years befor I found this wonderful forum. Were i learned a lot . The breeder were I got her from may have been a BYB . They also had multpoos. So I alway wondered if she was mixed. But she never looked mixed.She had nice long silk coat untill she took ill and the medication made it fall out in some places. I did not do a lot of reasearch then . I found the breeder in the news papers and drove hours to get her. She was way yonger then 10 weeks I could put her in my pocket when I got her. She then turned out to be 7 pounds. Not a sturdy 7 pounds , no matter what you gave her to eat she looked thin. She was at the vet so offten it was ot funny., One thing Missie never had any tear staining. Chesey has never been sick she has only had a ear infection. She is only 6 month and still more sturdy then missie. chelsey looks completly differnent. The temperment is still the same.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Breeders I know evaluate them at birth and then 8 weeks. They hold back show potentials until 6 months for teeth and testicles. 

Structure wise, usually what you see at 8 weeks is what you get IF you have a very experienced eye evaluating the pups. After that as they grow, they will look funny as the fronts and rears grow at slightly different rates so the dog may be high in the rear for a while as it grows. Sometimes the breeder will hold back a pup with a slightly weak top line or something like that to see how it turns out. 

So, if I'm looking for a pet puppy, I'm looking for a breeder I can trust to be sure my dog is sound even if it may not be perfect. When looking for a show quality pup, I'm looking for the same thing in a breeder and then myself have specific qualities that I am after (a good front, a moderate head, not too tight tail set, etc.).


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

On ears:

High ears sets are an issue. I've seen more and more of them from BYB and mill dogs. I'm sure in some of the mill dogs it is Westie influence. However, a Maltese is a spaniel and should have a drop ear (think of a Cocker Spaniel) with a fairly low set so that they blend somewhat with the rest of the coat. During puppyhood, the ears can look a little funny especially during teething. In general, many pups hold their ears higher when teething in many breeds.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM_@Apr 4 2005, 05:29 PM
> *Breeders I know evaluate them at birth and then 8 weeks. They hold back show potentials until 6 months for teeth and testicles. *


Jackie, I hate to ask... I know what you mean by waiting for teeth.. to be sure mouth is aligned, etc.. but what are they waiting for regarding testicles??


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Apr 4 2005, 06:07 PM-->
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LOL You mean you don't want to hear about taking care of a stud dog? hehehe 

For teeth I mean waiting for permanent teeth to come in to ensure a good bite and complete dentition. A lot of the time while they are teething their bite will appear off but it is just because the gums are swollen and the baby teeth loose. 

In males, the testicles often take a little bit longer to drop and may go up and down for a while. The dog needs to have 2 descended testicles.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JMM+Apr 4 2005, 08:15 PM-->
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LOL You mean you don't want to hear about taking care of a stud dog? hehehe 

For teeth I mean waiting for permanent teeth to come in to ensure a good bite and complete dentition. A lot of the time while they are teething their bite will appear off but it is just because the gums are swollen and the baby teeth loose. 

In males, the testicles often take a little bit longer to drop and may go up and down for a while. The dog needs to have 2 descended testicles.
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Ahhh, I didn't realize they could go back up... Catcher is neutered so I don't have to worry about that....









NOOOOO way would I know what to do with a stud dog.... I'll leave that to you guys who know what you're doing!


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## 020202 (Jan 26, 2005)

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

I have no idea if Izzy is proportioned, high eared, long bodied or what. Heck, I don't even know if she's teething. JMM mentioned them holding their ears higher if they are teething. Wow, to be able to recognize that. Izzy is 4 months old. I guess she will start teething soon? I need to find a time baseline for this stuff.


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## puppylucy (Jan 8, 2005)

lucy lost her first tooth (that we could tell) on the day she turned 4 months


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

They start teething between 3-5 months and finish with most of their teeth by 6-7 months...sometimes the molars are a little later.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 20202_@Apr 4 2005, 11:18 PM
> *The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
> 
> I have no idea if Izzy is proportioned, high eared, long bodied or what.  Heck, I don't even know if she's teething.  JMM mentioned them holding their ears higher if they are teething.  Wow, to be able to recognize that.  Izzy is 4 months old.  I guess she will start teething soon?  I need to find a time baseline for this stuff.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49069*


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You will know when she starts teething: 

Puppy will start to bite every thing in your home if you don't give her chew toys. 
Provide losts of chew nylon bones and toys . I think there are even some toys that you can freeze in the fridge for dogs now.








Puppy may also start having tear stains more then normal.
Other signs: Puppy may stop eating food ... If it is hard kibble start adding water in it to make it softer to chew. 
Bad breath from teeth falling out.

Last sign, her tooth will fall out.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 20202_@Apr 4 2005, 10:18 PM
> *The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
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> I have no idea if Izzy is proportioned, high eared, long bodied or what.  Heck, I don't even know if she's teething.  JMM mentioned them holding their ears higher if they are teething.  Wow, to be able to recognize that.  Izzy is 4 months old.  I guess she will start teething soon?  I need to find a time baseline for this stuff.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49069*


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Looking at her photos, Izzy definetly has a high ear set. I can't tell about her legs and back but she doesn't look very up on legs. She is an absoluste darling though. I love her face! So sweet.


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## maltsmom (Feb 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Sisses Momma_@Apr 1 2005, 03:52 PM
> *I really think it is all in the genetic makeup of the pup.  Obviously the pup would be a blend of mom and dad and whatever their genes were.  I don't think there are 2 different kinds.  In fact, I think if you just go through all of our avatars or through the gallery you'll see MANY different sizes, shapes, builds and coats!!  I am sure Marj or JMM or someone that KNOWS breeding can give you a better answer to this question.  Isn't is funny how "different" they all are even though they are all suppose to be "Maltese".  I can really now start to see that somewhere in Sisse's genetics there HAD to of been Bichon in there because of her size!!
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I feel the same way about Jack. I have his pedigree and it is all Maltese, but I swear there's bichon in him. He is tall. His legs are long compared to malts even older than him and his hair is very wavy. He weighs 18 pounds but he is not fat. That's okay. His sister (not really) is all malt and I am afraid she is going to break. She seems so fragile.


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