# Titering Validity



## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

MORE ON VACCINE TITER TESTING

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
Hemopet 
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310-828-4804; Fax 310-828-8251
www.hemopet.org 
[email protected]

Some veterinarians have challenged the validity of using vaccine titer testing to assess the immunologic status of animals against the common, clinically important infectious diseases. 

With all due respect, this represents a misunderstanding of what has been called the “fallacy of titer testing”, because research has shown that once an animal’s titer stabilizes it is likely to remain constant for many years. Properly immunized animals have sterilizing immunity that not only prevents clinical disease but also prevents infection, and only the presence of antibody can prevent infection. As stated by eminent expert Dr. Ronald Schultz in discussing the value of vaccine titer testing, these tests “show that an animal with a positive test has sterilizing immunity and should be protected from infection. If that animal were vaccinated it would not respond with a significant increase in antibody titer, but may develop a hypersensitivity to vaccine components (e.g. fetal bovine serum). Furthermore, the animal doesn't need to be revaccinated and should not be revaccinated since the vaccine could cause an adverse reaction (hypersensitivity disorder). You should avoid vaccinating animals that are already protected. It is often said that the antibody level detected is “only a snapshot in time". That's simply not true; it is more a “motion picture that plays for years". 

Furthermore, protection as indicated by a positive titer result is not likely to suddenly drop-off unless an animal develops a medical problem such as cancer or receives high or prolonged doses of immunosuppressive drugs. Viral vaccines prompt an immune response that lasts much longer than that elicited by classic antigen. Lack of distinction between the two kinds of responses may be why practitioners think titers can suddenly disappear.

But, not all vaccines produce sterilizing immunity. Those that do include: distemper virus, adenovirus, and parvovirus in the dog, and panleukopenia virus in the cat. Examples of vaccines that produced non-sterile immunity would be leptospirosis, bordetella, rabies virus, herpesvirus and calicivirus --- the latter two being upper respiratory viruses of cats. While non-sterile immunity may not protect the animal from infection, it should keep the infection from progressing to severe clinical disease.

Therefore, interpreting titers correctly depends upon the disease in question. Some titers must reach a certain level to indicate immunity, but with other agents like those that produce sterile immunity, the presence of any measurable antibody shows protection. The positive titer test result is fairly straightforward, but a negative titer test result is more difficult to interpret, because a negative titer is not the same thing as a zero titer and it doesn't necessarily mean that animal is unprotected. A negative result usually means the titer has failed to reach the threshold of providing sterile immunity. This is an important distinction, because for the clinically important distemper and parvovirus diseases of dogs, and panleukopenia of cats, a negative or zero antibody titer indicates that the animal is not protected against canine parvovirus and may not be protected against canine distemper virus or feline panleukopenia virus.

Finally, what does more than a decade of experience with vaccine titer testing reveal ? Published studies in refereed journals show that 90-98% of dogs and cats that have been properly vaccinated develop good measurable antibody titers to the infectious agent measured. So, in contrast to the concerns of some practitioners, using vaccine titer testing as a means to assess vaccine-induced protection will likely result in the animal avoiding needless and unwise booster vaccinations.

SIDE BAR
Reasons for Vaccine Titer Testing: *
1.	To determine that animal is protected (suggested by a positive test result).
2.	To identify a susceptible animal (suggested by a negative test result).
3.	To determine whether an individual animal has responded to a vaccine.
4.	To determine whether an individual vaccine is effectively immunizing animals.

* from: Schultz RD, Ford RB, Olsen J, Scott F. Titer testing and vaccination: a new look at traditional practices. Vet Med, 97: 1-13, 2002 (insert). 

References

Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 38: 1-4, 2001.
Lappin MR, Andrews J, Simpson D, et al. Use of serologic tests to predict resistance to feline herpesvirus 1, feline calicivirus, and feline parvovirus infection in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 220: 38-42, 2002.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to five viral antigens in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 55-60, 2004.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to three viral antigens in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 61-66, 2004.
Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force: 2003 canine vaccine guidelines, recommendations, and supporting literature. AAHA, April 2003, 28 pp.
Tizard I, Ni Y. Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals. J Am Vet Med Assoc 213: 54-60, 1998. 
Twark L, Dodds WJ. Clinical application of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 217:1021-1024, 2000.


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the information.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

your welcome -- i asked her to send to me as had been reading that some vets question the validity of titers and i want to make sure mine are safe as i titer them. Jean does all their titers as well. 

I love that pic of your baby with his girlfriends lol 


QUOTE (PRECIOUS PAWS @ Jan 22 2009, 11:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711469


> Thanks for the information. [/B]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Do keep in mind there are plenty of veterinarians (including immunologists) who do not agree that a titer is more than a brief snapshot. And there are yet others who believe if the animal titers as responding to the vaccine once, even if the titer is low later they have immunity for life. Lots of opinions out there...


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

This is why it is important not to get pass or fail but actual results for titer. My demi had one from cornell university before i knew jean and it was low so we vaccinated for parvo distemper as she was a rescue and i do not think she got her last booster at 8 mos. Thus far mine are all fine and 5 years old. 

I do trust Jean as she has been studying blood for 42 years and a big advocate in the vaccinations. My thinking is if we immunize humans when children why do we not have to do it over and over like they do to animals. I personally believe my dee dee has had such health issues due to rabies vaccine. She was perfectly healthy until one month after her rabies  No she is hypothyroid and severe atopic dermatitis. My parents dog got a viral infection after his last vaccines a month ago and is still sickly and he has been healthy for 7 years so he must have had a bad reaction to something i believe in the bordatella shot as that was the only thing different from his other vaccines. 

I know there are different philosophies on this but I do trust Jean as she is very passionate about what she does


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

informaton on rabies challenge fund and i know many on here like Jan Rasmusen as well and have read her book Scared Poopless which i just bought after reading on this forum - her link below - she is behind it as well 

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/truth4dogs.html

Not sure on the immunologists as have not read up on their points of view but I tend to question many vets after what i have been through and why i usually deal with specialists at this point for anything more serious than the basics. I do know the one vet i went to asked me several times if i was sure about giving demi the rabies vaccine and her fear and questioning of it so many times led me to believe she is not all for it  Demi did get it but i have a feeling she did not give her the full dose for a 90lb dog that it states on the label  

Why do they give a 4lb dog the same dose as a 90lb Dog? If it does not matter then why even label up to 90lb dog on there?


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Jean Dodds Resume 

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-RESUME.HTM


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

> I love that pic of your baby with his girlfriends lol
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ...


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks for this. I am printing all of it out and bringing it to my vet. I am not vaccinating Nikki anymore, no way. Titer testing only. 

BTW, she STILL has a lump on her neck where the rabies shot was given. It's been 9 months and it's still there.


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks for the information... I will be printing it out and bringing it to my vet as well.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I am not trying to tell you Dr. Dodds is incorrect...but she is not infallable (ie the genetic thyroid testing that turned out to be faulty). Do you research on more than one opinion so you know what is out there. I happen to agree with another school of thought for any of my dogs that are in the least bit at risk. My 10 year old who never goes out gets titers. My other dogs who go to classes and such get vaccinated. I've seen titers drop in 6 months and titers last for 9+ years...I'm not chancing my dogs since they are exposed to other dogs. That is my personal experience - seeing titers not last a year.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 12:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711484


> http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
> 
> informaton on rabies challenge fund and i know many on here like Jan Rasmusen as well and have read her book Scared Poopless which i just bought after reading on this forum - her link below - she is behind it as well
> 
> ...




Do you know what Jan Rasmusen's credentials are? I've not read "Scared Poopless" because I did a brief online search for her credentials and couldn't find anything.


Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Just wanted to add what the American Veterinary Medical Association has on their site regarding vaccinations. I'll be so glad when enough research and testing has been done on antibody titers that they are definitely deemed a reliable way to test pets.






Link to Vaccination Brochure






Joy


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 22 2009, 12:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711583


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 12:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711484





> http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
> 
> informaton on rabies challenge fund and i know many on here like Jan Rasmusen as well and have read her book Scared Poopless which i just bought after reading on this forum - her link below - she is behind it as well
> 
> ...




Do you know what Jan Rasmusen's credentials are? I've not read "Scared Poopless" because I did a brief online search for her credentials and couldn't find anything.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

You can read about Jan here: Jan Rasmusen. Her book lists all of the references used, including Jean Dodds and other experts in the field. Hope that helps!


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (tamizami @ Jan 22 2009, 05:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711622


> QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 22 2009, 12:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711583





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 12:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711484





> http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
> 
> informaton on rabies challenge fund and i know many on here like Jan Rasmusen as well and have read her book Scared Poopless which i just bought after reading on this forum - her link below - she is behind it as well
> 
> ...




Do you know what Jan Rasmusen's credentials are? I've not read "Scared Poopless" because I did a brief online search for her credentials and couldn't find anything.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

You can read about Jan here: Jan Rasmusen. Her book lists all of the references used, including Jean Dodds and other experts in the field. Hope that helps!
[/B][/QUOTE]




:huh: A degree in business and a flight attendant???? I thought perhaps she was a Vet.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 22 2009, 02:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711633


> QUOTE (tamizami @ Jan 22 2009, 05:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711622





> QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 22 2009, 12:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711583





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 12:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711484





> http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
> 
> informaton on rabies challenge fund and i know many on here like Jan Rasmusen as well and have read her book Scared Poopless which i just bought after reading on this forum - her link below - she is behind it as well
> 
> ...




Do you know what Jan Rasmusen's credentials are? I've not read "Scared Poopless" because I did a brief online search for her credentials and couldn't find anything.


Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]

You can read about Jan here: Jan Rasmusen. Her book lists all of the references used, including Jean Dodds and other experts in the field. Hope that helps!
[/B][/QUOTE]




:huh: A degree in business and a flight attendant???? I thought perhaps she was a Vet.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Just because someoneisn't a vet doesn't mean they can't do research! She did her research for 2 years with many well respected Vets and I think her book is full of great information. She put the information she found in an easy to read manner for "regular" people to understand.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I'm sure it is true that no one person, no matter their experience and credentials knows everything about any subject. Dr. Dodds' piece gives the backup for her message. Medicine is an evolving thing. There are changes in protocols every day. I'm sure Dr. Dodds ascribes to that theory, as do all researchers. That's why they research. She or any other authority on the subject of titers can only give out what information is 'known', realizing that info could change with time and study. I believe because she is working so hard to prevent over vaccination that I can rely on her knowledge. If her protocol for vaccs and titers is found faulty she will change it. I would rather do the core vacs and titer than over vaccinate.

This is close to my heart today since I had to do Shoni's rabies shot today. I have been putting it off since Nov. At 5 mos. he had the first Rabies and was scheduled for the 3 yr. shot in November. I just couldn't bring myself to do it in Nov. He had a terrible reaction to the first one and I knew it could be much worse the 2nd time. I had already been studying the subject for several years. Frosty had some problems that a couple of vets had suggested were from the Rabies shots. During Frosty's life we were still doing yearly boosters and 3 yr. Rabies. Over a 15 yr. dog's life that is a lot of vacs! Knowing now it is not only unnecessary but harmful--that makes me just sick. I don't want that for Shoni. I not only want to protect him with proper vaccination but protect him from over vaccination.

His vet today was so concerned she put an IV in before the shot in case of major trouble. She also gave him a little cortisone and benadryl shot a half hour before the Rabies vac. Then she had us leave him with her for an hour before we took him home. Thankfully he is fine so far. I say so far because he didn't react last time until several hours after. So I'm still watching him. His vet agreed that we will titer him from here on, except that if I want to keep his license up, in Oregon he will need the rabies every 3 years. She agrees that should be changed to checking the titer. If he has a reaction she will write a letter to our county dog license people so we won't have to repeat it as long as the titer is good.

It is great that we are talking about this. I would not ever take my opinion from only one source, but Dr. Dodds doesn't either. She is only one of the researchers and always quotes several others. We can thank all of them for their work. It will probably save lives and many problems.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Except for the dreaded rabies, because it's the law, I've decided to no longer vaccinate my girls. So, now I say to myself, what's the point of titer testing? It's not the expense, it's why put them through the blood test? I will say that my Crisse, who's up in age, will never again get a rabies vaccination because she has ITP, a platelet disease.

Am I wrong for thinking not to do titers on my 2 little ones? Would a record of titer testing be helpful in case of God forbid something going awry? 

I appreciate and will heed any advice.
xoxoxoxoxo


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## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

Thank you for that article. You are very fortunate to have Dr. Dodds as your vet. After Perri had his one year boosters I started learning about vaccinations. I've read a lot and think I have made an informed decision to no longer vaccinate him (except for rabies unfortunately.) I may do occasional titer testing, if only for his insurance policy reasons. Something intersting I've read about titering is that even if titers show zero antibodies in the blood, that doesn't prove that immunity doesn't exist; because there is also the cellular immunity to consider, which can't be tested by titers. Supposedly there are "memory cells" which keep a blueprint of the disease and with new exposure to the disease they are ready to produce new antibodies. Even though antibodies will diminish over time if there is no new exposure by vaccine or otherwise, these memory cells are still around. According to this train of thought the only thing a titer test can absolutely indicate is the that there is no need to vaccinate, and that it can can never positively indicate the need to vaccinate, because immunity may or may not still be present even if there are zero antibodies. 
There certainly is a lot of information about this out there, and it's something everyone needs to read up on and make a decision which they feel is right for them and their pet. I've decided to stay legal in regards to the rabies shot however. I was very tempted to just not do it, but with airlines, grooming places, and training classes needing it there really isn't a way around it. I think anytime you cross state lines an officer can ask for proof of rabies too if they see a dog in your car. I wish I was in a state that would allow a note from the vet instead but I'm not. Luckily though I go to a holistic vet who gave Perri a very reduced dose of the rabies shot he was due for this past spring - I know some may not agree with that but I am very grateful this was an option for me, I'm not trying to start anything with vets or techs here just making a point: Even with a small amount and thuja given and the homeopathic rabies detox I gave him he still had a minor reaction a week later. It's such a nasty shot, hopefully very soon we'll have even a five year protocol for rabies, and other shots as well. With such dedicated people as Dr. Dodds working on this I'm sure we will.

**Oh and just a side note I wanted to add - make sure to ask for a three year rabies instead of the one year. It's basically the same shot it's just the legalities that differentiate between them. The practice we go to now does this anyway, but when he was younger the one we went to just a town over did the one year by default, and you had to request the three year. However they never told me that it was even available, and I didn't know about anything then. So I was mad when I found out he was due last year when he should have had another two years left. Just extra poison going into his little body. Anyway I just wanted to write this for anyone else who might not know to ask.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (KAG @ Jan 22 2009, 08:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711701


> Except for the dreaded rabies, because it's the law, I've decided to no longer vaccinate my girls. So, now I say to myself, what's the point of titer testing? It's not the expense, it's why put them through the blood test? I will say that my Crisse, who's up in age, will never again get a rabies vaccination because she has ITP, a platelet disease.
> 
> Am I wrong for thinking not to do titers on my 2 little ones? Would a record of titer testing be helpful in case of God forbid something going awry?
> 
> ...




Does your Vet. agree with your non-vaccination decision? 

The reason I'm asking is that I would think the decision to vaccinate/test should be between you and your Vet. There's so many factors to consider and this is why the AVMA and the AAHA recommend the vaccination decision be done on a case-by-case basis. Here's a couple of things Vets. usually take into consideration: 

*the age and health status of the dog
*potential for exposure of the dog (and you) to infectious disease (environmental, lifestyle, and travel habits)

Unfortunately, we live on a farm and need some of the vaccinations because of the risk of disease to our dogs from the wildlife in our area.


For newbies, Dr. Jaimie's "pinned" vaccination topic is great.





Joy


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

QUOTE (KAG @ Jan 22 2009, 05:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711701


> Except for the dreaded rabies, because it's the law, I've decided to no longer vaccinate my girls. So, now I say to myself, what's the point of titer testing? It's not the expense, it's why put them through the blood test? I will say that my Crisse, who's up in age, will never again get a rabies vaccination because she has ITP, a platelet disease.
> 
> Am I wrong for thinking not to do titers on my 2 little ones? Would a record of titer testing be helpful in case of God forbid something going awry?
> 
> ...


Kerry - I am with you.....after doing 1 year titer tests instead of booster vaccines, I will not titer again until 7 years. We get to go to Dr. Dodds, too and she is fine with this. My dogs aren't really exposed to much, however, we never go to a dog park and rarely to the vet (knock on wood). Our area is densely populated, so we do have a lot of dogs around, but I never saw the reason for a bordatella vaccine if it doesn't prevent all strains.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

whenever i have blood drawn which is at least once a year for health checks i always tell them to add the titers on as they are already pulling it so I do that to be safe and pay the extra cost of knowing all is ok  


QUOTE (KAG @ Jan 22 2009, 08:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711701


> Except for the dreaded rabies, because it's the law, I've decided to no longer vaccinate my girls. So, now I say to myself, what's the point of titer testing? It's not the expense, it's why put them through the blood test? I will say that my Crisse, who's up in age, will never again get a rabies vaccination because she has ITP, a platelet disease.
> 
> Am I wrong for thinking not to do titers on my 2 little ones? Would a record of titer testing be helpful in case of God forbid something going awry?
> 
> ...


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

well my dog is hypothyroid and she nailed the meds the first time out the gate with her doseage and that is pretty darn good i think. Especially since my vet wanted me to up the dose prior due to the splitting of pill being easier he thought and jean said no way i said a 1/3 twice a day not 1/2 so the dose the vet said would be ok could have sent my dog hyperthyroid. DD went from .30 t4free to .92 with the exact dose she did. I titer yearly and their titers never have dropped and I have had titers from kansas state, cornell, colorado state so many different sources and all sufficient now for 4 years in 3 dogs and mine do not go out and my groomer comes to my home. I do not believe in vaccinating dogs that are not HEALTHY and my dee dee is mvd, hypothyroid and severe atopic dermatitis so she has immune disorders and it all started after her rabies vaccine which her breeder begged me not to do and i did anyway and sorry i did as she has all these issues now  

What genetic Thyroid testing are you referring to as the only thing i am aware is of another testing done in another breed. 

Just curious as i know you are in the profession have you seen a dog that has been titered get parvo, distemper or rabies, lepto, lyme , etc? I would be interested to know this as it does still make me nervous but I have to trust someone and I have a hard time trusting after all i have been through with mine and 20k in vet bills later and mistakes made I just have a very hard time anymore and why i deal with an internal medicine specialist, dermatologist, Board certified dentist, etc and went to opthamologist when dex had goopy eye. I am fine with paying extra to get the best as i know the specialists have to go for further education, etc. I just want to make sure mine get the best care out there. These are my first dogs and i have been through the ringer and have been very frustrated and why i spend so much time educating myself as much as i can to keep them healthy. 



QUOTE (JMM @ Jan 22 2009, 03:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711578


> I am not trying to tell you Dr. Dodds is incorrect...but she is not infallable (ie the genetic thyroid testing that turned out to be faulty). Do you research on more than one opinion so you know what is out there. I happen to agree with another school of thought for any of my dogs that are in the least bit at risk. My 10 year old who never goes out gets titers. My other dogs who go to classes and such get vaccinated. I've seen titers drop in 6 months and titers last for 9+ years...I'm not chancing my dogs since they are exposed to other dogs. That is my personal experience - seeing titers not last a year.[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks so much I try as i know how frustrating it can be when our babies are not healthy so this is my passion after all i have been through. I feel like it is my part time job now lol and have considered going to vet tech school or to Ohio State for vet school. I felt so lost when my dog got so sick and at that point is when i knew i needed to learn more and that was two years ago so most of my free time from work is spent educating myself as much as i can. I am on 60 yahoo groups and read a ton. It is really important to me as i want to keep up to date as i have a yorkie with ibd and pancreatitis, a yorkie with mvd, hypothyroid, atopic dermatitis, mild luxating patella in one leg, and my maltese has periodontal disease  so I have had my fair share and I think it is for a reason as i can afford to care for them and get them the best and to help others with what i have been through and why i try to share when I can as i do not want to see others go through it if it can be avoided  



Thank you.



also, I have read a lot of your posts and I think that you are very well informed. You give valuable information to help people with their babies and thank you for that.
[/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

[/QUOTE]

Just because someoneisn't a vet doesn't mean they can't do research! She did her research for 2 years with many well respected Vets and I think her book is full of great information. She put the information she found in an easy to read manner for "regular" people to understand.
[/QUOTE]

I agree and why i like people with alot of passion who are willing to do the research and put it in terms everyone can understand. This is why i like yahoo groups because these people are dealing with the issues day in and day out and go to different vets and specialists all over the world and post information of what is and is not working so we can consult with our vets. I really wish more vets would join in as it could help other dog owners and they could probably learn as well. I know for ibd many dog owners and their vets are using atopica off label and it is working. NOvartis will not support it but it is safer than steroids so these are the kinds of things that can be learned and then consult your vet 

When someone is truly passionate about something they want to learn everything about it and I like learning from those people as well. When dd was diagnosed with mvd i pulled an all nighter and read everything about it for 24 hrs as i wanted to understand it before i put her through any radioactive dye testing and so glad i did as I learned it was not necessary so i think as a pet owner you need to educate yourself and discuss with your vet things and make the best decision for your dog as many specialists have told me they respect that as they cannot know everything about everything and they like when dog owners work as a team with them to get the dog the best care they can as we are with the dog 24/7 and they are not so we can take notes and inform them of what is occuring to get the best care. I learned this when i found out potato diets were triggering dex ibd as i learned potato is inflammatory to intestines and when we took him off potato diet he has not vomitted in 2 years and the ibd triggered the pancreatitis from the small intestines and no one could figure it out but due to my taking notes and analyzing the diets and what triggered the vomitting and us working together dex is doing great with no more health issues.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 22 2009, 09:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711749


> QUOTE (KAG @ Jan 22 2009, 08:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711701





> Except for the dreaded rabies, because it's the law, I've decided to no longer vaccinate my girls. So, now I say to myself, what's the point of titer testing? It's not the expense, it's why put them through the blood test? I will say that my Crisse, who's up in age, will never again get a rabies vaccination because she has ITP, a platelet disease.
> 
> Am I wrong for thinking not to do titers on my 2 little ones? Would a record of titer testing be helpful in case of God forbid something going awry?
> 
> ...




Does your Vet. agree with your non-vaccination decision? 

The reason I'm asking is that I would think the decision to vaccinate/test should be between you and your Vet. There's so many factors to consider and this is why the AVMA and the AAHA recommend the vaccination decision be done on a case-by-case basis. Here's a couple of things Vets. usually take into consideration: 

*the age and health status of the dog
*potential for exposure of the dog (and you) to infectious disease (environmental, lifestyle, and travel habits)

Unfortunately, we live on a farm and need some of the vaccinations because of the risk of disease to our dogs from the wildlife in our area.


For newbies, Dr. Jaimie's "pinned" vaccination topic is great.





Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]
No more vaccinating, yes. My Vet agrees. Not titer testing, I really don't know, or remember, how he feels. In fact, I must bring my girls in for a wellness check. I do this twice a year.

In the past, my beloved Amy died from GME. 
Once, I awoke in the middle of the night and found my beloved Lola spinning on the living room floor. She survived a 108 degree temperature, suffering from seizures as a result. 
Both girls were deemed healthy. Both girls were vaccinated. My Lola had a horrible adverse reaction to her first round of shots. When it was time for her 1 yr booster, it was petrifying to say the least. Both girls took heart worm medication for 6 months out of a year. 

You always try to do what's best. I'm a Nervous Nellie, my Vet knows it, and I love him for that. Ultimately, the decision is mine. I value all opinions on this board. We're all in the same boat. I learn something new every day. 

xoxoxox


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I've seen my own dogs titered for d/p and lepto as well as many others. And I have dealt with many exports titered for rabies...and yep, even seen a dog with a low titer for rabies that was vaccinated 6 weeks beforehand. Titering for lepto is usually looking for infection (done as a paired titer to look for a rise). The lepto vaccine is for a bacteria and does not last very long (6-12 months according to the literature). Remember, lepto is a regional/exposure issue - discuss with your vet if your dog is at risk. You can also call your local health department as they may have statistics for your area. 
We titer many low risk and older dogs for d/p - being sure to explain to the owner that we cannot guarantee that means protection for 12 months. Since there is excellent info from challenge studies about how long a DHPP lasts, we recommend 3 year DHPPs for young, healthy dogs in accordance with the AVMA and AAHA. As joy said, each dog is an individual case and their vaccine protocol should be taylored to them. 
The lyme vaccine is not particularly affective so we do not recommend it. We recommend topical tick protection when necessary. We use a 4DX Snap Test for annual heartworm screening which also screens for lyme, erhlichia, and anaplasmosis. Many dogs are exposed to lyme but do not have active infection. A urinalysis to look for protein in the urine is done for a positive animal. If there is no protein and no symptoms, the animal is simply monitored. 

Again, I'm not knocking Dr. Dodds. My point is her view is one school of thought, not accepted by everyone in the veterinary and immunology world. Those that she cites in her papers of course agree with and support what she is writing - why would she cite sources that disagree? Keep your mind OPEN and research other points of view before making recommendations. I like seeing "This is what Dr. Dodds has to say and I agree with her." I don't like seeing "This opinion is gospel." I'm giving you my experience that does not support what Dr. Dodds says about titers. Take it for what its worth...another point of view to toss in the pile. 


QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 11:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711821


> Just curious as i know you are in the profession have you seen a dog that has been titered get parvo, distemper or rabies, lepto, lyme , etc? I would be interested to know this as it does still make me nervous but I have to trust someone and I have a hard time trusting after all i have been through with mine and 20k in vet bills later and mistakes made I just have a very hard time anymore and why i deal with an internal medicine specialist, dermatologist, Board certified dentist, etc and went to opthamologist when dex had goopy eye. I am fine with paying extra to get the best as i know the specialists have to go for further education, etc. I just want to make sure mine get the best care out there. These are my first dogs and i have been through the ringer and have been very frustrated and why i spend so much time educating myself as much as i can to keep them healthy.[/B]


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

On a lighter note, in his book "Dogs Behaving Badly", Dr. Nicholas Dodman has a chapter on Zoonosis. Here's a few sentences I've abstracted from the beginning of the zoonosis chapter:


_The term zoonosis refers to diseases that are potentially transmissible from animals to man . . . . . . . . . It is not the perogative of this text to dwell on the pathology of the various types of zoonoses; for the record, however, let it be known that leptospirosis can be so severe that the bottom falls out of your world, whereas in salmonellosis the reverse is true - the world falls out of your bottom._




The CDC has some info. on diseases humans can get from dogs:


Link to CDC




Joy


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 12:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711484


> Why do they give a 4lb dog the same dose as a 90lb Dog? If it does not matter then why even label up to 90lb dog on there?[/B]




I don't know why the dose says up to 90 pounds. A lot of *medicine* doses given are based on weight or body surface area (even for humans this is sometimes true). However, what I've read is that it's different with *vaccines *because an antigenic dose is given. What this means is that a dog is given a dose to stimulate the body's immune system to generate a protective immune response. The immune system requires the same amount of stimulus irrespective of body mass. 




Joy


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Have you seen a dog that has been titered ever get parvo, distemper, rabies in your experience? I just want to know if someone has been titering for years have you ever seen one of these dogs get the disease? I would really be curious to know if you or anyone has ever seen this happen. I do not think anyone's word is gospel after what i have seen with my experiences lol . I just try to educate myself and make the best decision for my dogs. I do feel that dr dodds has been the only professional other than you, dr. jaimie and my pet vet group that have been passionate on their own time to help others and I think that is awesome. I have emailed jean at 11:00 at night and she has responded on how to split a pill back to me then. That is truly hard to find in the veterinary profession and most do not have email which is crazy in this day an age. The internal medicine specialist, dentist and dr dodds all email answer to clients questions and our new vet has a website i email on and he responds. I like dealing with professionals that are passionate about what they do and truly care and that is why i mostly like Jean Dodds because when i call her she calls back and she emails back. People do not care how much you know until they truly know how much you care is what i find. No one knows everything about everything and I understand that but i like to work with the people that will work as a team to help my dogs when issues arise. 

I just find it hard to believe we vaccinate humans when young but have to vaccinate dogs over and over and over as that just does not logically sit with me and I know they are different but are they really that different? And why do vets call a 3 year rabies vaccine a one year? Why do vets continue to vaccinate owners dogs that are not aware yearly instead of every 3 years like the studies state? Is it for the money? Why did i have to tell my parents vet about the 3 year protocol and they say to me it is up to the owners to request this and they are the professional- come on The more I learn the more i am disappointed and feel sorry for animals. 

I definitely like to hear both sides and understand more so please do not think i am saying any one side is the perfect scenario and it does depend on the dog as i am aware and due to dd compromised immune system why i have seeked out this information. 

I love to hear both sides and everyone needs to know so they can do what is best for their dog but i have never had one person say to me this dog has been titered for 5 years and now has parvo or has distemper so that makes me believe this information is true.

I have also read that distemper is more of a puppy disease not an adult disease. Parvo i am aware is still scary as they had an outbreak of it near our area so it is out there. Also my friends dog had parvo but she never gave puppy vaccines and took her dog on a hike in mountains and dog got parvo and she was so upset - her dog lived but many vets did not want to treat as they did not have an extra room to quarantine her dog. She should have at least got the initial boosters. 

This topic is very interesting to me

Jackie if you could please post links to the information you stated about jean dodds hypothyroid info and the links on the immunology information i would be very interested in reading it as I know you are very knowledgeable with this information and respect that about you for helping myself and others here. 






QUOTE (JMM @ Jan 23 2009, 10:52 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711924


> I've seen my own dogs titered for d/p and lepto as well as many others. And I have dealt with many exports titered for rabies...and yep, even seen a dog with a low titer for rabies that was vaccinated 6 weeks beforehand. Titering for lepto is usually looking for infection (done as a paired titer to look for a rise). The lepto vaccine is for a bacteria and does not last very long (6-12 months according to the literature). Remember, lepto is a regional/exposure issue - discuss with your vet if your dog is at risk. You can also call your local health department as they may have statistics for your area.
> We titer many low risk and older dogs for d/p - being sure to explain to the owner that we cannot guarantee that means protection for 12 months. Since there is excellent info from challenge studies about how long a DHPP lasts, we recommend 3 year DHPPs for young, healthy dogs in accordance with the AVMA and AAHA. As joy said, each dog is an individual case and their vaccine protocol should be taylored to them.
> The lyme vaccine is not particularly affective so we do not recommend it. We recommend topical tick protection when necessary. We use a 4DX Snap Test for annual heartworm screening which also screens for lyme, erhlichia, and anaplasmosis. Many dogs are exposed to lyme but do not have active infection. A urinalysis to look for protein in the urine is done for a positive animal. If there is no protein and no symptoms, the animal is simply monitored.
> 
> ...





> Just curious as i know you are in the profession have you seen a dog that has been titered get parvo, distemper or rabies, lepto, lyme , etc? I would be interested to know this as it does still make me nervous but I have to trust someone and I have a hard time trusting after all i have been through with mine and 20k in vet bills later and mistakes made I just have a very hard time anymore and why i deal with an internal medicine specialist, dermatologist, Board certified dentist, etc and went to opthamologist when dex had goopy eye. I am fine with paying extra to get the best as i know the specialists have to go for further education, etc. I just want to make sure mine get the best care out there. These are my first dogs and i have been through the ringer and have been very frustrated and why i spend so much time educating myself as much as i can to keep them healthy.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I found this out from our vet that this is why he vaccinates for lepto as it is transferable to humans. I also read that there are so many strains of lepto that even if your dog gets the shot it will not necessarily protect them from every strain. Also this is the one vaccine that many dogs have an allergic reaction to 


QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 23 2009, 12:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711957


> On a lighter note, in his book "Dogs Behaving Badly", Dr. Nicholas Dodman has a chapter on Zoonosis. Here's a few sentences I've abstracted from the beginning of the zoonosis chapter:
> 
> 
> _The term zoonosis refers to diseases that are potentially transmissible from animals to man . . . . . . . . . It is not the perogative of this text to dwell on the pathology of the various types of zoonoses; for the record, however, let it be known that leptospirosis can be so severe that the bottom falls out of your world, whereas in salmonellosis the reverse is true - the world falls out of your bottom._
> ...


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

are all vaccines now killed vaccines including parvo distemper?

No, all vaccines except those for rabies and Lepto, Lyme and bordetella are MLV. Jean


what is mlv - does that mean live ? Modified live vaccine- so the only killed vaccines are rabies, lepto , lyme and bordatella? YES  If so why do so many dogs have probs with the lepto vaccine? Because of the adjuvants put in the vaccine that cause acute anaphylactoid reactions. 


above were some questions i asked jean about vaccines and one was lepto


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

yes that is an answer a vet gave on a vet group i am on but will get more info and post as checking with jean about why they do this on the rabies and will post as i am still not 100% clear or comfortable with that as i know some vets do not give the full dose to small dogs but the owner has to request it  this is why owners need to be educated as i keep hearing over and over the owner needs to request titers, 3 year vaccinations, etc - not sure why the big secret and why they do not inform us of all our options and why we have to learn it from other dog owners and the internet  I wish I could find a vet that said -- here are all your options and this is what i recommend for your dog - it would be nice 



QUOTE (vjw @ Jan 23 2009, 01:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711995


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 12:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711484





> Why do they give a 4lb dog the same dose as a 90lb Dog? If it does not matter then why even label up to 90lb dog on there?[/B]




I don't know why the dose says up to 90 pounds. A lot of *medicine* doses given are based on weight or body surface area (even for humans this is sometimes true). However, what I've read is that it's different with *vaccines *because an antigenic dose is given. What this means is that a dog is given a dose to stimulate the body's immune system to generate a protective immune response. The immune system requires the same amount of stimulus irrespective of body mass. 




Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Deb,

As I have said at least twice in this thread, yes, I personally have seen dogs with 
A. Low titers when titered at less than 12 months from the previous time
B. Dogs vaccinated and titered 2 months later with low titers
C. Dogs that have been titered within the last 12 months and contracted parvo (and no, not the new strain, this was a couple years ago)

Rabies is very uncommon where I live. Distemper I've only seen in pups...although I suppose an adult with a compromised immune system could be at risk. 


QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 23 2009, 11:20 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711997


> Have you seen a dog that has been titered ever get parvo, distemper, rabies in your experience?[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok thanks as i read you answered a and b but not C so this is good to know -thanks as no one has ever said that on any forum that they had their dog titered and it contacted parvo so thanks for clarifying as i saw you just said their titers were low I saw that but not the other . So is it safe to say if your dog does not go to the groomers, dog shows or dog parks and mostly at home you are safe ?


QUOTE (JMM @ Jan 23 2009, 01:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712024


> Deb,
> 
> As I have said at least twice in this thread, yes, I personally have seen dogs with
> A. Low titers when titered at less than 12 months from the previous time
> ...





> Have you seen a dog that has been titered ever get parvo, distemper, rabies in your experience?[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Also Jackie how many would you say out of 100 titers has contacted parvo in your experience? Is it a long shot or does it happen alot and was this owner taking their dog to dog parks, groomer, etc. It would be interesting to know how the dog caught it and was the titer sent to cornell that was done as i understand per one vet cornell is the most accurate with titers but very costly - could it be the lab that did the titer made an error? There are so many variables I guess that could have gone wrong as well. 

If your dog had health issues would you vaccinate? I think you said you do not in the one for 9 years but the other one low you did. I vaccinated when demi was low from cornell university for parvo distemper. I do want my dogs safe and why i am analyzing this to death but I do not want anymore health issues than i am already dealing with


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Deb, I would be happy to offer you my personal opinion and what I do with my dogs. 

My old boy goes nowhere but to a groomer who takes him knowing he doesn't have bord or dhpp vaccines. I know the place and the owners and I am comfortable with his Grammy taking him there. He gets his rabies every 3 years as required by law and titered for d/p annually. The vet he goes to does not see parvo and distemper cases (they have a rather high end clientelle). I think he is very low risk even if he had no protection at all. 

The rest of my dogs go to trials, classes, and to TN with me (where there is a LOT of parvo). I do the 3 year DHPP. Roo is also current on his lepto (we have it in VA and now in TN, too grrrrr!). I use the new lepto 4-way...which gets 4 of the most common (out of 8 MSU tests for) serovars of lepto. Soda was exposed to lepto as a pup (luckily he did not get ill) so I just don't feel my little dogs are exempt from risk...

As you can see, I do it differently for each dog. 

QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 23 2009, 12:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712036


> ok thanks as i read you answered a and b but not C so this is good to know -thanks as no one has ever said that on any forum that they had their dog titered and it contacted parvo so thanks for clarifying as i saw you just said their titers were low I saw that but not the other . So is it safe to say if your dog does not go to the groomers, dog shows or dog parks and mostly at home you are safe ?[/B]


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 23 2009, 01:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712036


> ok thanks as i read you answered a and b but not C so this is good to know -thanks as no one has ever said that on any forum that they had their dog titered and it contacted parvo so thanks for clarifying as i saw you just said their titers were low I saw that but not the other . So is it safe to say if your dog does not go to the groomers, dog shows or dog parks and mostly at home you are safe ?[/B]




No, they aren't necessarily 100% safe. Some diseases can be transmitted by insects and rodents (Parvo and Lepto come to mind). I don't know about everyone else, but although we try our best, our home isn't 100% insect and rodent free 100% of the time. Also, it's possible the dog could be exposed to diseases at the Vets. office.




Joy


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Deb, the dogs who contracted parvo belonged to a friend of mine's kennel. I have seen copies of the labwork and vet records, but I was not medically involed with the case. I have heard many theories on this one from there was something in the home that compromised the dogs (but then why didn't they all get parvo?) to there must have been a lab error and it was not parvo...my take on it was some of the dogs did not have immunity despite being titered 9-12 months ago. 

The dogs who have come back low in <12 months are a handful over about 5 years. They just happen to have blood drawn for something else the owners said do the titer early. 

Here are 3 of my dogs:
1. Jonathan. I got him at 18 months of age and gave him a DHPP. He is low risk so I have titered him annually since. He is 10 years old and still has very high titers. 
2. Mikey. Received puppy vacc. Up to age 5 when he died, he had adequate titers. 
3. Soda. Received puppy vacc. Titer 1 year later good. Titer next year low. 

My experience makes me believe the immunologist who says titers are a picture of immunity at that time (and next time I'm in VA I can look up a name for you...I do not have my records here - but this is one school of thought by some immunologists). 

I've also been told a low titer does not necessarily mean the dog does not have immunity. So I'm left wondering...what in the world does it actually mean then and why are we even doing them if being low doesn't mean a vaccine is needed??? Personally, I do not think anyone has the one right answer just yet. The immune system is such a puzzle. 

Mikey had very bad health issues and died at age 5. I doubt if he had a low titer I would have given the vaccine. He was seen by Dr. Center at Cornell and, unfortunately, even she could not help him. 

Soda collapsed after his rabies booster. He still receives his DHPP. I put an IV catheter and premed him with steroids and benadryl. He has some neuro issues but I believe his risk outweighs any detriment of the DHPP. 

Roo is a pretty healthy rat. He gets everything (rv, dhpp, lepto). 

My dog who died of GME had minimal vaccines. I highly doubt they had anything to do with her demise. 

I'd like to think I am conservative with vaccines based on a careful risk assessment.



QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 23 2009, 12:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712039


> Also Jackie how many would you say out of 100 titers has contacted parvo in your experience? Is it a long shot or does it happen alot and was this owner taking their dog to dog parks, groomer, etc. It would be interesting to know how the dog caught it and was the titer sent to cornell that was done as i understand per one vet cornell is the most accurate with titers but very costly - could it be the lab that did the titer made an error? There are so many variables I guess that could have gone wrong as well.
> 
> If your dog had health issues would you vaccinate? I think you said you do not in the one for 9 years but the other one low you did. I vaccinated when demi was low from cornell university for parvo distemper. I do want my dogs safe and why i am analyzing this to death but I do not want anymore health issues than i am already dealing with [/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks so much for sharing this and I am with you so hard and puzzling  the more i read the more paranoid and confused lol but i try to do what is best and keep them safe. 

What is GME? sorry i have not read about that - I like Dr Center and Dr Tobias alot and if my dog had liver shunt i would fly to tennessee for sure. I use to read a lot on the liver shunt group when dd was first diagnosed with mvd but not so much anymore but do know they are the best but do have some differing opinions I guess  Didn't dr centers learn under tobias?



QUOTE (JMM @ Jan 23 2009, 02:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712058


> Deb, the dogs who contracted parvo belonged to a friend of mine's kennel. I have seen copies of the labwork and vet records, but I was not medically involed with the case. I have heard many theories on this one from there was something in the home that compromised the dogs (but then why didn't they all get parvo?) to there must have been a lab error and it was not parvo...my take on it was some of the dogs did not have immunity despite being titered 9-12 months ago.
> 
> The dogs who have come back low in <12 months are a handful over about 5 years. They just happen to have blood drawn for something else the owners said do the titer early.
> 
> ...





> Also Jackie how many would you say out of 100 titers has contacted parvo in your experience? Is it a long shot or does it happen alot and was this owner taking their dog to dog parks, groomer, etc. It would be interesting to know how the dog caught it and was the titer sent to cornell that was done as i understand per one vet cornell is the most accurate with titers but very costly - could it be the lab that did the titer made an error? There are so many variables I guess that could have gone wrong as well.
> 
> If your dog had health issues would you vaccinate? I think you said you do not in the one for 9 years but the other one low you did. I vaccinated when demi was low from cornell university for parvo distemper. I do want my dogs safe and why i am analyzing this to death but I do not want anymore health issues than i am already dealing with [/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Dr. Tobias is a surgeon. Dr. Center is a boarded internist. Surgery is actually not always a great idea for Maltese...I would refer to Dr. Center for a Maltese.


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## Dixie's Mama (Mar 19, 2008)

I just read every word of this thread. Thank you to all of you for all this information and for sharing your knowledge and research. I have been gathering info about titer testing b/c Dixie is due for her 1st yr. boosters in March. I've also been trying to educate myself so I can make the best choice for heart worm, flea & tick protection. Going from Mass. to FL is great b/c there is no winter for us but that means fleas and mosquitos all year and, therefore, an all year worry for Dixie. 
I, like Debbie, get more paranoid & confused the more educated I get. I just make up my mind to go one way, read another angle and change my mind. All very disheartening. 
I did want to thank you who have posted for sharing all you have learned so unselfishly with all of us.
Elaine


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

yeah i am aware but i hope i never have to cross that bridge  thank goodness dd is mvd with no symptoms just showed up in 3 separate pre and post bile acids  I have always read that maltese tend to run high on posts by nature but then on maltese forum you are on they all said no that is not true but learned that on liver shunt group. I just cannot read on there as much anymore as my heart was broken so many times with those little guys and i feel so much for the moms that care for them. One in particular was a maltese that had the surgery done in los angeles - she drove down her to do the surgery as opposed to dr tobias and the pup died and it crushed me


QUOTE (JMM @ Jan 23 2009, 02:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712081


> Dr. Tobias is a surgeon. Dr. Center is a boarded internist. Surgery is actually not always a great idea for Maltese...I would refer to Dr. Center for a Maltese.[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

you are so welcome and i love learning about this topic to make the best choice -- it is so tough some times with the little ones

QUOTE (Dixie's Mama @ Jan 23 2009, 04:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712115


> I just read every word of this thread. Thank you to all of you for all this information and for sharing your knowledge and research. I have been gathering info about titer testing b/c Dixie is due for her 1st yr. boosters in March. I've also been trying to educate myself so I can make the best choice for heart worm, flea & tick protection. Going from Mass. to FL is great b/c there is no winter for us but that means fleas and mosquitos all year and, therefore, an all year worry for Dixie.
> I, like Debbie, get more paranoid & confused the more educated I get. I just make up my mind to go one way, read another angle and change my mind. All very disheartening.
> I did want to thank you who have posted for sharing all you have learned so unselfishly with all of us.
> Elaine[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I asked jean about why they use same vaccine in 4lb dog as 90lb and she said because it is the law  but way too much for a little dog sadly


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

below are some more sites with information that i just saw on another group - i have not read all of them but thought it might be informative 


http://vetmedicine.about.com/gi/dynamic/of...alt4animals.com 

http://www.holisticat.com/vaccinations.html 

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org 

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/truth4dogs.html 

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm 

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm 

http://naturalrearing.com/coda/a_science_o...ine_damage.html


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## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

While we're talking about all this something I've wondered about is using a recombinant vaccine, which doesn't have the adjuvants in it, for the rabies vaccine. This kind has to be repeated every year though. Perri still has over two years before I have to worry about it, but I'm curious as to whether it would be any better to do. But maybe not since it would be yearly... Since he is able to get a reduced dose of the regular rabies vacc. anyway I wonder if it even matters. I would be very interested to learn what Dr. Dodds thinks about this, if you remember Debbie would you mind asking her about it next time you see her?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 11:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711461


> MORE ON VACCINE TITER TESTING
> 
> W. Jean Dodds, DVM
> Hemopet
> ...




Debbie, the day I read this I was busy and skimmed over the article. I had time last evening to re-read it and noticed that the references are from 1998 to 2004. I just assumed the info. was from current literature.


Here's a 2007 Immunology Bulletin which backs up what Jackie (JMM) said about some veterinarians and immunologists views. 

Antibody Titer Testing





Joy


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Your link is an article that is marketed by Merial which is a vaccine company ? Is that correct? So they make money on the vaccinations?


http://www.merial.com/our_company/index.asp


QUOTE (vjw @ Feb 6 2009, 10:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=720529


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Jan 22 2009, 11:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=711461





> MORE ON VACCINE TITER TESTING
> 
> W. Jean Dodds, DVM
> Hemopet
> ...




Debbie, the day I read this I was busy and skimmed over the article. I had time last evening to re-read it and noticed that the references are from 1998 to 2004. I just assumed the info. was from current literature.


Here's a 2007 Immunology Bulletin which backs up what Jackie (JMM) said about some veterinarians and immunologists views. 

Antibody Titer Testing





Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

sorry been working alot of hours at work so just saw this and will ask jean for you 


QUOTE (PreciousPrince @ Jan 24 2009, 11:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712846


> While we're talking about all this something I've wondered about is using a recombinant vaccine, which doesn't have the adjuvants in it, for the rabies vaccine. This kind has to be repeated every year though. Perri still has over two years before I have to worry about it, but I'm curious as to whether it would be any better to do. But maybe not since it would be yearly... Since he is able to get a reduced dose of the regular rabies vacc. anyway I wonder if it even matters. I would be very interested to learn what Dr. Dodds thinks about this, if you remember Debbie would you mind asking her about it next time you see her?[/B]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 13 2009, 09:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726073


> Your link is an article that is marketed by Merial which is a vaccine company ? Is that correct? So they make money on the vaccinations?
> 
> 
> http://www.merial.com/our_company/index.asp[/B]



Or the reverse argument, vets make MORE money in titers than they do on vaccines. Wouldn't it be advantageous to encourage titering? Jean Dodds runs a lab...she makes more money off titering than vaccines. Again, playing devils advocate you can do it either way. That article is one of a school of though in immunology.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

right but titers are much safer than pumping a bunch of vaccinations into dogs and causing potential health issues. I would prefer an independent company that did research than a vaccine company trying to sell vaccines - I know you are just giving the other side and it is good to get both sides i like that but I do have to say I pay $200 for - cbc, 6panel thyroid, parvo distemper titer, rabies titer from jean and a vet in our area would charge like $700 for all those tests as i called two of them separately and got an estimate so hardley think she is making a killing like the vets are on blood work - she is pretty low budget and what vet do you know that emails you back at 11:00pm on how to split a soloxine pill for your dog - like none so she is passionate about what she does unlike many others -- but i like that about you Jackie as you are passionate so i respect you for that but so hard to find in this profession and always shocked when i see someone like you on groups  makes me have hope 

I have no problem with the money just want my dog safe after dealing with health issues 


QUOTE (JMM @ Feb 13 2009, 11:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726081


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 13 2009, 09:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726073





> Your link is an article that is marketed by Merial which is a vaccine company ? Is that correct? So they make money on the vaccinations?
> 
> 
> http://www.merial.com/our_company/index.asp[/B]



Or the reverse argument, vets make MORE money in titers than they do on vaccines. Wouldn't it be advantageous to encourage titering? Jean Dodds runs a lab...she makes more money off titering than vaccines. Again, playing devils advocate you can do it either way. That article is one of a school of though in immunology.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

here is jean's response to your question

Dear Deb: There are no non-adjuvanted recombinant rabies vaccines. Only those that are free of thimersol [mercury]. Best Jean




QUOTE (PreciousPrince @ Jan 24 2009, 10:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=712846


> While we're talking about all this something I've wondered about is using a recombinant vaccine, which doesn't have the adjuvants in it, for the rabies vaccine. This kind has to be repeated every year though. Perri still has over two years before I have to worry about it, but I'm curious as to whether it would be any better to do. But maybe not since it would be yearly... Since he is able to get a reduced dose of the regular rabies vacc. anyway I wonder if it even matters. I would be very interested to learn what Dr. Dodds thinks about this, if you remember Debbie would you mind asking her about it next time you see her?[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Jeans response in regards to merial article 


These colleagues are likely consultants to Merial -- they don't work for the company. They're both respected academic vets. 

Merial's rabies vaccines, IMRAB TF-1 and TF-3, are thimersol free -- but are not recombinant vaccines. Jean


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 15 2009, 12:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726886


> Jeans response in regards to merial article
> 
> 
> These colleagues are likely consultants to Merial -- they don't work for the company. They're both respected academic vets.
> ...




Dr. Richard Ford is an Internal Medicine Vet. and is a professor of Veterinary Medicine at North Carolina State.

Dr. Alice Wolf is a professor in the Department of Small Animal Surgery at Texas A & M.

Both N. Carolina State and Texas A & M are on the Top Ten Veterinary Schools list (tied at number five).




Joy


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

where is The Ohio State University listed? My DH graduated from there and just curious as i am aware they are a great vet school along with UCDAVIS and Cornell 

QUOTE (vjw @ Feb 15 2009, 02:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726953


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 15 2009, 12:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726886





> Jeans response in regards to merial article
> 
> 
> These colleagues are likely consultants to Merial -- they don't work for the company. They're both respected academic vets.
> ...




Dr. Richard Ford is an Internal Medicine Vet. and is a professor of Veterinary Medicine at North Carolina State.

Dr. Alice Wolf is a professor in the Department of Small Animal Surgery at Texas A & M.

Both N. Carolina State and Texas A & M are on the Top Ten Veterinary Schools list (tied at number five).




Joy
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Veter...e/detail/437522

just found it all are on the top 10 good to know


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 13 2009, 11:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726094


> right but titers are much safer than pumping a bunch of vaccinations into dogs and causing potential health issues. I would prefer an independent company that did research than a vaccine company trying to sell vaccines - I know you are just giving the other side and it is good to get both sides i like that but I do have to say I pay $200 for - cbc, 6panel thyroid, parvo distemper titer, rabies titer from jean and a vet in our area would charge like $700 for all those tests as i called two of them separately and got an estimate so hardley think she is making a killing like the vets are on blood work - she is pretty low budget and what vet do you know that emails you back at 11:00pm on how to split a soloxine pill for your dog - like none so she is passionate about what she does unlike many others -- but i like that about you Jackie as you are passionate so i respect you for that but so hard to find in this profession and always shocked when i see someone like you on groups  makes me have hope
> 
> I have no problem with the money just want my dog safe after dealing with health issues
> 
> ...





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 13 2009, 09:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726073





> Your link is an article that is marketed by Merial which is a vaccine company ? Is that correct? So they make money on the vaccinations?
> 
> 
> http://www.merial.com/our_company/index.asp[/B]



Or the reverse argument, vets make MORE money in titers than they do on vaccines. Wouldn't it be advantageous to encourage titering? Jean Dodds runs a lab...she makes more money off titering than vaccines. Again, playing devils advocate you can do it either way. That article is one of a school of though in immunology.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]



Until titer testing is proven without a shadow of a doubt to be a reliable method of checking antibodies to diseases, yes, I will continue to pump vaccines into my pets. I know there's risks and side effects to vaccines, but I think a lot of people leave out the fact that vaccines have saved the lives of millions of pets and prevented untold numbers of transmission of diseases and infections to humans and other animals.

In addition, I'd be willing to bet that not all of Dodds followers know the details of her experiments. Like what's being alleged in this article:

HelpingAnimals.com


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I am aware of this as she stated it on a radio interview regarding the rabies challenge and she has not tried to hide it in anyway as far as I am concerned. She has been very upfront with it. Maybe one day when you have a dog that has suffered an illness due to this vaccination you will understand what those of us have gone through but until then you will not fully understand. How about the tons of dogs affected by this vaccine given over and over again do they not matter either? I have one of them that suffers from thyroid and allergies that occured within 30 days of her vaccines - does she not matter. What about all the dogs dying every day in shelters due to illnesses where their owners cannot afford vet care like I have paid due to over vaccination of their dogs so they just drop them off at a shelter. How many cases of rabies have their been in the united states? I am sorry but this happens every day animal testing for human benefit we just do not hear about it as much. They test drugs all the time on humans and animals to help others so i am not naive in thinking this does not ever happen. It is very sad I agree but if it helps many more dogs in the future from being over vaccinated from having life long illnesses where vets make a fortune on these things as i am in 20,000 in vet bills with mine and they are only 4 then i am all for it. I have been to her facility and she is no about the money that is for sure. My dog was saved from a plasma transfusion from severe pancreatitis and later found out she does plasma donations from her greyhound rescue dogs at the facility. It is real easy to say you should do this or do that when your dog is really healthy but have you ever had a dog with health issues as a side effect of any vaccination? Trust me if you have you would want this tested further as it is very costly and can be very frustrating and heart breaking. 


http://www.animaltalknaturally.com/2007/05...llenge-show-91/


QUOTE (vjw @ Feb 15 2009, 06:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=727182


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 13 2009, 11:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726094





> right but titers are much safer than pumping a bunch of vaccinations into dogs and causing potential health issues. I would prefer an independent company that did research than a vaccine company trying to sell vaccines - I know you are just giving the other side and it is good to get both sides i like that but I do have to say I pay $200 for - cbc, 6panel thyroid, parvo distemper titer, rabies titer from jean and a vet in our area would charge like $700 for all those tests as i called two of them separately and got an estimate so hardley think she is making a killing like the vets are on blood work - she is pretty low budget and what vet do you know that emails you back at 11:00pm on how to split a soloxine pill for your dog - like none so she is passionate about what she does unlike many others -- but i like that about you Jackie as you are passionate so i respect you for that but so hard to find in this profession and always shocked when i see someone like you on groups  makes me have hope
> 
> I have no problem with the money just want my dog safe after dealing with health issues
> 
> ...





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 13 2009, 09:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=726073





> Your link is an article that is marketed by Merial which is a vaccine company ? Is that correct? So they make money on the vaccinations?
> 
> 
> http://www.merial.com/our_company/index.asp[/B]



Or the reverse argument, vets make MORE money in titers than they do on vaccines. Wouldn't it be advantageous to encourage titering? Jean Dodds runs a lab...she makes more money off titering than vaccines. Again, playing devils advocate you can do it either way. That article is one of a school of though in immunology.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]



Until titer testing is proven without a shadow of a doubt to be a reliable method of checking antibodies to diseases, yes, I will continue to pump vaccines into my pets. I know there's risks and side effects to vaccines, but I think a lot of people leave out the fact that vaccines have saved the lives of millions of pets and prevented untold numbers of transmission of diseases and infections to humans and other animals.

In addition, I'd be willing to bet that not all of Dodds followers know the details of her experiments. Like what's being alleged in this article:

HelpingAnimals.com
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I've had a dog almost die from a vaccination...and I've helped care for animals with diseases suspected to be secondary to vaccines. That does not make vaccines bad. I've also seen an unfortunate number of dogs euthanized because they have parvo or distemper and their owner cannot afford $1,000 of treatment and elected not to give a $20 vaccine that could have prevented it for whatever reason. Vaccines were created for a reason - there are horrible, deadly diseases out there. You cannot toss out the vaccines and not expect to see the consequences in the re-emergence of these diseases. You balance the risk and vaccinate with the best knowledge available. Instead of focusing on how evil vaccines are, lets remember how horrible it is to see a dog die from parvo virus...don't throw out the baby with the bathwater or you will end up facing equally as deadly options. I will continue to responsibly pump my dogs with vaccines every 3 years and every 6-12 months for lepto since it is an issue for where I live in accordance with solid challenge studies.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

so you do not believe titers are reliable at all then?


QUOTE (JMM @ Feb 15 2009, 11:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=727458


> I've had a dog almost die from a vaccination...and I've helped care for animals with diseases suspected to be secondary to vaccines. That does not make vaccines bad. I've also seen an unfortunate number of dogs euthanized because they have parvo or distemper and their owner cannot afford $1,000 of treatment and elected not to give a $20 vaccine that could have prevented it for whatever reason. Vaccines were created for a reason - there are horrible, deadly diseases out there. You cannot toss out the vaccines and not expect to see the consequences in the re-emergence of these diseases. You balance the risk and vaccinate with the best knowledge available. Instead of focusing on how evil vaccines are, lets remember how horrible it is to see a dog die from parvo virus...don't throw out the baby with the bathwater or you will end up facing equally as deadly options. I will continue to responsibly pump my dogs with vaccines every 3 years and every 6-12 months for lepto since it is an issue for where I live in accordance with solid challenge studies.[/B]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I wouldn't trust a titer for a year on a dog I consider at risk. If my dog has a low titer on the 12 month mark, do you honestly think it dropped that very day?


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

no but year after year when it never drops would you trust it as i have seen?


QUOTE (JMM @ Feb 15 2009, 11:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=727466


> I wouldn't trust a titer for a year on a dog I consider at risk. If my dog has a low titer on the 12 month mark, do you honestly think it dropped that very day?[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

also why do we no longer do yearly boosters like use to be done? Who tested to find out they were good for 3 years ?


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

I just wish there was a test that is 100% certain - but from everything I have read ... there is no such thing. I have read many positives for a titer - and I asked about it when H & D were due. Our vet had to look into it, as they had never been asked for a titer test before.

Turned out, our labs could do part of the test, (and I can't remember which part now, and I don't have my notes in front of me) .. but part of the test would need to be sent 'overseas'.

Given Rabies doesn't exist in this country, I count myself lucky I don't need to worry about that one!

With Distemper & Hepatitis - my vet said it had been YEARS since they had seen a single case. They had seen Parvo, but not very often. As for lepto - H & D have never been vaccinated for it - I guess because it is considered very low risk here? Dunno?

H & D are home-bodies, like me, and the vet agreed, that given their lifestyle, it wasn't necessary to vaccinate them this time around. Vet said 'most' vaccines last 3 years, and given H & D don't get out much, was comfortable not giving them late last year.

Now, if our situation were different - and they were out & about all the time, or even attending classes, I would re-evaluate, but for right now, they are 6 months over-due.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 15 2009, 10:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=727473


> no but year after year when it never drops would you trust it as i have seen?
> 
> 
> QUOTE (JMM @ Feb 15 2009, 11:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=727466





> I wouldn't trust a titer for a year on a dog I consider at risk. If my dog has a low titer on the 12 month mark, do you honestly think it dropped that very day?[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

Considering I've seen it drop after 1 year, after 2 years, etc, why would I trust that it never drops? How do you know my dog will be the one that is good for 6 years or for 14 months? That does not make any sense at all. Dr. Schultz did challenge studies on parvo/distemper (same vet for the rabies challenge). That's where the 3 year protocol came from. Again, work with your vet to decide YOUR DOG'S RISK and decide what is right FOR YOU from there. My dogs are exposed to parvo...I'm not taking a chance.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks i was wondering who did the testing for the 3 year booster vs the 1 year and thought it was him but was not 100% sure. It seems this was proven by him and many vets are following his study now so i just hope that they can prove it in rabies and vets will soon follow that protocol. Jean has been studying blood work for 42 years so I do trust she is knowledgeable over someone studying for a few years. I do think experience and education and above all the passion to continue that educational process are critical in dealing with human and animal health. I see too many vets complacent in just doing what has always been done and not continuing to educate themselves in their profession to learn about or challenge what is affecting animals. Many do not study up on nutrition which is very important in animal health as well. This is why i do respect Jackie and Dr Jaimie because i believe they are passionate about the breed and animals to be here and help others as that shows me they truly have passion about others and their pets. 

Mine are more house dogs than anything and when the titer drops i will vaccinate just as i did demi until then will continue to titer. I just do not understand still why we do not vaccinate humans over and over and yet we do it to small dogs year after year. This is a topic that i keep trying to learn more and more on so not trying to be combative but want to get all points of view to make better decisions for my dogs with health issues. I do appreciate all information.

I know you stated how do you know if the titer drops on a given day but also how do you know if the vaccine took 100% or that the vaccine is not going to cause the dog to get the disease since you are shooting it in to the body the disease itself or that the dog is not going to react to the vaccine. Nothing is 100% guaranteed I do not believe with this. They say give the vaccine and titer the next month to make sure the vaccine took I have read so it is such a difficult thing to decide. 

Obviously the puppy shots, rabies, etc need to be given in the beginning to protect the dog that has no protection --my concern is doing it over and over and over especially in small dogs. 

Trust me I wish i had one of those dogs i could just take in and not worry about it or think about it but sadly i do not so i welcome as much information as i can pro and con as it seems as a dog owner you need to educate yourself is what i have found.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I haven't been able to join in on the forum a lot due to an extremely busy schedule. But I felt I had to take the time to give my .02 and then some on this. Please, no offense to anyone, but I am going to have a little rant. I respect all of your opinions, so please don't take it personally. I have great admiration and affection for veterinarians and their support teams. They are necessary life savers and great encouragers. 

I have very mixed feelings about vaccinations. My concern is that many dogs suffer from some health issues their entire lives like allergies, stomach issues and skin problems, to name a few, that the cause cannot be found. Does anyone consider the fact that some dogs might begin having issues after doing yearly boosters for a couple of years? The vaccinations/preservatives could be the cause of some unexplained health issues, but has any testing been done on that? As a former pet sitter, I can tell you that the dogs who had the worst skin problems and allergies were the ones who had yearly boosters and ate prescription dog food. 

If Nikki were in day care, being shown, with other dogs a lot, went outside a lot, etc., I _might_ consider 3 year booster vaccinations as a smart thing to do. But since my dog is an inside dog, I'm planning on doing titers. I know that I am in for a huge fight with my vets but oh well. Nikki is my dog and I will choose how to take care of her. 

I'd love to see an independent study regarding the risk of parvo/distemper for inside dogs vs. outside dogs/dogs exposed to a lot of other dogs. Most of the parvo incidents I've heard about were dogs who were strays or around stray dogs, outside all the time, etc., and owned by people who not only didn't bother to vaccinate their dogs, but never took them to the vet, fed them crap food, and let them roam around all the time in all sorts of muck, thus weakening the dog's immune system. But try to discuss titers, and the vets will always bring up the horrible suffering of the poor dogs they treated who died from parvo. Most of whom were strays, I later find out after questioning the vet. 

If I am a responsible dog owner who does not allow my dog to be in risky situations, feeds her good food and takes care of her very well, why should I HAVE to vaccinate yearly or even every three years? Why should I have to subject my dog to a rabies vaccination that is so risky they can't even give a live virus, but a killed one? Why should my dog have a lump on her neck almost a year after the rabies vaccination? Why should she have to have vaccinations when her liver is already damaged from MVD? 

Do I need a typhoid or cholera (or whatever exotic disease is currently prevalent in third world countries) vaccination if I never leave the USA? Well, you never know, right? I might come in contact with the one person in the whole USA who has it, catch it and then die a horrible death. That's what the whole hoopla over giving parvo shots to inside dogs reminds me of. I guess people don't remember that animals and people are created with an immune system that actually works in most cases, provided that the body is taken care of to a reasonable degree and no chronic condition exists. 

Big Pharma is very good at selling fear. Scare people to death and you've got them hooked on vaccinations and other meds for life.

Why can't the *personal responsibility *of the owner be taken into account, instead of blanket laws, herd mentality, and control of the medical industry by big pharma? It's not the vets I am pointing a finger at. They do their best to help and save animals, while big pharma brainwashes everyone into thinking that all their products are necessary to our survival.

Titer testing does not line the pockets of billion dollar pharmaceutical companies, so big pharma will always demonize it. Do some research on how much money these companies make on human and animal vaccines, and how the FDA approves all sorts of meds that should be thrown in the trash. It will astound you. I want to keep big pharma and big government out of my life as much as possible. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, that isn't my intention. I resent having to treat my dog medically the same as a person who dumps their dog outside and never takes it to the vet.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

i started questioning it more when my vet asked me several times if i was sure i wanted to give demi her 3 years rabies shot. She made me so nervous as i felt she knew something i did not know about and that was before i started reading more on this and watching my girl yorkie go down hill with health issues from six months on after her rabies and other vaccines and her immune system is shot. I started titering from that point as the vet, dermatologist, and holistic vet said not to vaccinate her further until we can get her under control and they all wrote letters. So all these professionals made me again question it. Then i went to see dr jean dodds for thyroid panel test as dd kept losing her hair and vets kept saying it was allergies yet everywhere i read it could be due to thyroid issues which is an immune disease and sure enough she was very low on her thyroid - almost dropped in half from previous year so i was lucky to be persistent because if it dropped further she could have had seizures and having mvd also would not be good. It is so hard to know what to do or what not to do but in dealing with so many vets and specialists it is interesting to see their take on it as well. They must be seeing things but cannot cross the line of not vaccinating- now the one who was questioning the rabies did a titer on demi through cornell which cost me $154 and she felt they were the most accurate and demi was low so we vaccinated her but demi did not have her last series of boosters as the rescue person told me she would need those as i got her at 8 mos but vet said to wait until one year so i did and then i had her titered. Another vet i went to does not beleive in titers which is the other side yet he believes in raw feeding so it is all over the map is what i have seen so it makes it very hard. 

It is true the fda does approve just about everything and then pulls the drug when their is a big problem. One of my clients told me only to use name brand drugs and never generic as she works with fda in training companies all over the world on how to pass and sell their products in the united states. Rimadyl has been a big culprit for having tons of documentation of side effects yet they continue to pass that drug out knowing it causes problems for kidneys. Sometimes if they spend ton of research on it for humans and it is not able to be used for one reason or another they give it to the pet industry to use so their research money does not go to waste. It is so hard to know what to do but i talk it over with specialists and my vets to decide what is best for mine in my area. 

I hate it as i want to take my dogs to dog parks, etc but am too fearful but with having health issues i will be very careful with mine and keep them as safe as i can.


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## 3malteseboyz (Feb 6, 2008)

Why do they give a 4lb dog the same dose as a 90lb Dog? If it does not matter then why even label up to 90lb dog on there?


I have often thought of this concerning the dose given. I have asked my vet to give only 1/2 of the dose if not less. Our little one will be titered to see the results of smaller doses.


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## JRM993 (Mar 3, 2013)

I have been reading "Scared Poopless" by Chiclet T. Dog and Jan Rasmusen as it was mentioned in the latest American Maltese Rescue newsletter. I also think the author was at the Orlando Specialty show this past May as she is quite involved in Maltese rescue. I have only had one pup so I am a novice on dog health care but am finding the book a very informative read...maybe a little confused when I put the information together with reading the additional information on this forum. Makes me wonder about the decisions I made with my first pup and how I will do things differently when I get another? Any suggestions?


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## Patsy Heck (Jun 10, 2011)

Unfortunately, many people have many different ideas and advice. Ask a question listen to what experts and some not so expert have to say. Read all you can on the subject then make your decision. I've had a Maltese die of kidney failure at 17 and a JRT that died of liver failure at 15. Even with that I'm doing things a little different with my girls. I feed them freeze dried raw (Stella and Chewy) Fromm dry only treats made in the USA like Sam's Yams and I had them tittered rather than automatic immunizations. Something very controversial I chose not to give them rabies shots. I live in the city, they g out in a very small back yard for exercise and use puppy pads. The specialist I took my JRT to backed my decision. This is what I did and you need to make your own decisions. Hope this helps.


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