# Congestive heart failure



## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

Hi all. Its been a while... I was last visiting this site when I got Miss Phoebe over 10 years ago. Every once in a while I stop by to see whats going on but I simply don't have much time to spend on the computer at night, especially since I work all day on one.

Anyway Miss Phoebe was recently diagnosed with congestive heart failure and a grade 3 murmur. I know this is not good, and trust me, we have been through **** the last few weeks with a botched "safe" needle biopsy of her kidneys where we almost lost her to the after effects of bleeding internally and infection. Weeks sleeping on the couch getting her out of a 4 day coma, seizures, not eating, etc. and getting her to walk and talk again. Right now she is stable, but I know these heart meds are eventually going to cause a bunch of other problems. Shes already lost her appetite and its a battle getting this once great eater to eat anything. I'm working with a holistic vet to try and minimize drugs and looking for alternatives. Does anyone have any experience doing this? She was an amazingly healthy dog until she fell out of bed two years ago and had to be treated with steroids a few times. Not sure its related but the murmur appeared immediately after the last round. 

Hope all is well with everyone. Not sure if I know anyone here or if you're all new to us


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

Welcome back to SM! I am so so sorry that your baby is going through this. I lost my little girl last June to this :-( Sending positive vibes to you both


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

:smcry:Janet, I'm sorry, just thinking of all Phoebe and all she's going through makes me want to cry. Your such a good mommy, it's so hard watching our girls grow older. My Matilda will be 10 in April. I'll be praying for you and of course precious Phoebe:wub:


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

I was so very sorry to hear that Phoebe has CHF and hope that the holistic Vet that you will be seeing will be able to help her. We lost our precious Angel at 14 1/2 to both CHF and Kidney failure over seven years ago and still miss her terribly.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

I'm so sorry to hear about your Phoebe. My other dog, Trevor, had a slight heart murmur from birth. When he was 16, his murmur stayed slight, but his heart began to enlarge (congestive heart disease and his kidney levels escalated, as well. He also had a chronic cough, which went un-diagnosed. Although I met with a holistic doctor, I chose to work with a team of specialists--cardiologist, internist, and neurologist (he also had seizures). He was on a bunch of medicines, which I didn't love, but the heart medication slowed the heart from enlarging further--it worked very well. I truly believe these medicines helped him to be more comfortable and live longer--he really did have a good quality of life that last year of his life. He ultimately died at 17 years and almost 2 months, but he did not die from his heart issues/congestive heart failure.

I wish you luck. The one thing I can offer on the holistic end is if you do the acupuncture, do not let them use Rescue Remedy or any calming medicines--these actually speed up the heart, which you do not want to do.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

Janet,

I am sorry. I hope the situation remains stable.


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

Thank you all for your kind words. I am just devastated. I know what we are in for and it scares me to death. I do not want her to suffer.

Right now she is happy and playing but has that dreaded un-diagnosed cough. I can only think its a side effect of the medicines, which I know are helping to keep her alive but at the same time are working to tear up her kidneys. I want to support her with vitamins, or whatever I can so that its possible to use less of them, that's all. I just don't like my options when none of them are good.

So the cough scares me more than her. It doesn't seem to bother her too much but it makes me panic. Certainly her biopsy fiasco did her no good but I do want some more time with this angel. Some dogs are extra special and she is definitely one of those. So sad that these guys get dealt these hands when they are so innocent. I just hope I can do this.

Thanks again folks and any advice is greatly appreciated from those who have been down this road.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear how much she's been through. We lost Rylee just a month ago to CHF.. He didn't have it long but his advanced quickly. We had other dogs who did well for years with CHF with med and food management..
Is she on any meds? Whatever she's on make sure she drinks plenty of water to flush out meds, check on potasium suppliments for her.We used a gell in a tube called Renal K for potasium..
Rylee was on Lasix, Enalapril..potasium supliment Renal K.. he tried Vetmedin but it was too much for him


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

She was initially on Vetmedin, Lasix and Elanapril. The second vet who I took her to came highly recommended as a combination natural\conventional vet and replaced the elanapril with benazepril. Then everything came crashing down when she did the needle biopsy. Over the next few days, she was having seizures which I think was due to a shot of lasix when she wasn't eating, and they drugged her so bad she was completely out of it for a few days. SO I quit everything until about 10 days later. Then we put her on benazepril and lasix and thats when the cough seems to have started. Then we switched to vetmedin and lasix and thats all right now. 

How do you know when something isnt working or why was Vetmedin not good in your case? Years? did you say years? I would be amazed and thrilled to get another year or two but I am afraid she may be advancing fast, or at least the grade 3 may have been bumped up to a 4 since the biopsy. 

I am seeing the vet again on Monday so hopefully he can give a listen and see if things are holding steady or getting worse. I also have her on a heart supplement and I'm giving her blackstrap molasses for potassium, she seems to like it. She picks at things if I make her something that entices her, but she used to have a crazy appetite and now she barely eats. Drinks plenty of water though, that a good thing. Trying to stay positive but ugh...


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

I'll be lighting candles for you and your little beauty, Janet.
Xoxoxo


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Holliberry said:


> She was initially on Vetmedin, Lasix and Elanapril. The second vet who I took her to came highly recommended as a combination natural\conventional vet and replaced the elanapril with benazepril. Then everything came crashing down when she did the needle biopsy. Over the next few days, she was having seizures which I think was due to a shot of lasix when she wasn't eating, and they drugged her so bad she was completely out of it for a few days. SO I quit everything until about 10 days later. Then we put her on benazepril and lasix and thats when the cough seems to have started. Then we switched to vetmedin and lasix and thats all right now.
> 
> How do you know when something isnt working or why was Vetmedin not good in your case? Years? did you say years? I would be amazed and thrilled to get another year or two but I am afraid she may be advancing fast, or at least the grade 3 may have been bumped up to a 4 since the biopsy.
> 
> I am seeing the vet again on Monday so hopefully he can give a listen and see if things are holding steady or getting worse. I also have her on a heart supplement and I'm giving her blackstrap molasses for potassium, she seems to like it. She picks at things if I make her something that entices her, but she used to have a crazy appetite and now she barely eats. Drinks plenty of water though, that a good thing. Trying to stay positive but ugh...


Vetmedin made Rylee's heart bear too fast. So he did good on the Enalepril (sp) and Lasix, but his CHF was a blown valve and his heart just deteriorated from there, quickly.. His heart enlarged,they tried Vetmedin in the end but he died a couple hours later..Rylee's CHF was only a few months..My other dogs had it for over 5 years and was well managed on meds and diet and watching their foods..


Rylee lost his appetite for a few days when he first got on meds but after a while it came back.. We fed Honest Kitchen base mix and raw and mixed it up nice and stinky,, just the way he likes it..


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## Chardy (Oct 30, 2008)

Janet, 

I am not sure if you are seeing a cardiologist or if you have ever had an echo done etc? A grade 3 murmur means really nothing, an echocardiogram will tell you much more in regards to what the actual CHF is coming from. An X-ray can tell more in regards to fluid in the lungs etc. The echo will tell you where the problem is coming from- i.e. leaky valves, etc. 

If you can get a second opinion from a cardiologist, that would be ideal. You would be surprised on how often a complete different diagnosis is given after you see a cardiologist.


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

Yes a cardiologist was the first person to diagnose her. She did all that and said it was a leaky mitral valve and her heart was already enlarged. I had taken her to a regular vet a week before for a cough which they said was kennel cough. Not sure if catching it sooner would have been any better for her or not. She just didn't seem to do so well on the meds. I realize she needs them but the side effects are almost worse than the original problem.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I'm so very sorry you are going through this! My first Maltese did well on enalapril and lasix for about three years. Praying things stabilize and stay that way for quite a while!


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

maggieh said:


> I'm so very sorry you are going through this! My first Maltese did well on enalapril and lasix for about three years. Praying things stabilize and stay that way for quite a while!


That would be amazing. Thank you all for the words of encouragement. I was given the average 6-12 months but hearing it's possible to be on the meds for years gives me hope. Her setback could have made things worse. Praying not.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Make sure to keep on top of any changes as soon as possible.. Increased caugh or hacking, go in straight away.. When Rylee was dx'd they told us it was bad and he only had a couple months, which was all he did have. Rylee's valve actually blew so it was bad.

Einie lived over 5 years,but his wasn't bad and caught early too..he had a leaky valve.

Grechen had a heart murmur and she lived 10 years with that, the CHF came a few years later, but she lived almost 6 years after her dx..

It can be managed but it has to be caught early and all depends on the cause too..

I sure hope they can help her stay with you longer.. Each day is a gift..


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

I am so sorry you are going through this. I hope you are able to find the guidance you need.


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## Pooh's mommy (Aug 31, 2014)

So sorry that Phoebe is not well. I hope and pray for the best for her. Prayers also for you for the strength you need to cope with this illness. ( ( (Big hugs ) ) )


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## Piccolina (Dec 25, 2009)

P.......Prayers sent your wayrayer:

H.......Hoping she gets better:aktion033:

O.......Oh what a struggle:blink:

E.......Everyone's sending hugs:grouphug:

B.......Because we know what you are going through:hump:

E.......Everyone also wants you to know that it's in God's hands:amen:





*


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## Ann Mother (Dec 18, 2013)

Poor little Phoebe. I only know how humans react to those meds. The med ending in pril has the side effect of coughing. My husband takes liscinapril. I found that giving half the dose in the morning and the other half @ night helped. The doctor was okay with this. The cough can also be fluid in the lungs which is common in CHF. The heart meds do decrease their appetite but are needed to keep the heart beating stronger. The lasix decreases the fluid which lightens the load on the heart. They have the glucagon jelly for pets that can give to supplement the diet. My daughter used it for her dog.


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## Cupidsmommy (Mar 12, 2015)

My heart hurts for both of you . Tears, prayers and hugs. Please keep us posted on sweet Miss Phoebe!


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

I am so sorry for what you and Phoebe are going through. How awful that the biopsy caused such problems.
You are very smart to be working with a cardiologist. I have had two dogs with CHF and there really was a huge difference between the general practice vet and the cardiologist.
Have you asked the cardiologist about the possibility of trying a different medication? If she is having bad side effects from the medication, they may be able to try other alternatives.
Both of my dogs did very well with medication. My Lhasa, Grendel, was on enalapril and lasix. We did have to try a couple of different medications for him to find the right one. We also saw a holistic vet who suggested some supplements: taurine, l-carnitine, coQ10, fish oil and Heartease hbp. If you decide to go this root, be sure the holistic vet knows which medications Phoebe is taking, and also that the cardiologist knows about he supplements. There is one supplement (I think it is hawthorne) that really effects the prescription medications, so you have to be very careful. Grendel did very well for a couple of years, and eventually passed away from something else at age 15.
I currently have another senior, Teddy, who we adopted a year ago at age 15 with CHF. We were told at the time to consider it hospice care. He has been on just enalapril, and he has been doing well. We recently had an echocardiogram done, and it has progressed a little, but not too much, which is good news.
I know it is very scary. I hope that you can find the right medications to make her feel better. Sending lots of good thoughts for you and Phoebe. :grouphug:


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

If we could just get some sleep. Between the peeing and coughing all night I am up every hour. I think the cough is a side effect of one of the meds, most likely the lasix even though thats a rare side effect. Everything about her so far has been rare.

She was not on anything for 10 days while she recovered after that biopsy fiasco. She was on so many different things it was killing her. She didn't wake up for 2 days, didn't walk for 4 more and by the 7th day she could walk a few steps and hold her head up on her own, although pretty shaky. During that time she ate honey and butter, and I gave her parsley and dandelion for water retention. Other than that, nothing. So, the first thing I tried was the lasix at the doctors recommendation and the cough came on suddenly maybe 12 hours later and lasted almost 3 hours straight. Now it comes and goes at least. 

I will see the holistic vet on Monday and see what he thinks. I will eventually have the cardiologist look her over but honestly I want less medication and not more. Her little body does not like it.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

I pray every night for Phoebe, you need to get some rest Janet. I wish I lived closer I would give you a break, even a couple hour rest does wonders:wub: Matilda wasn't feeling her best, some nights we have had to get up and take her potty 3 or 4 times, when you get broken sleep your days seen soooo long


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## Pooh's mommy (Aug 31, 2014)

rayer: Prayers and kisses for Miss Phoebe,

I am so sorry that she is having such a difficult time, everything always seems to be worse during the night. Try and get some catnaps during the day if you can so that you can get up with her during the night. I am so sorry :wub: I hope that the holistic vet will have some answers for you on Monday. 

Prayers and ((Big Hugs))


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

Aww thank you all so much. It's funny I'm getting used to no sleep I think. Of course phoebe snores all day long after her cough settles, so she's getting her rest haha


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## Holliberry (Feb 5, 2005)

Well, I think we have some pretty good news. The blood results from Monday are in and she has some elevated things still but he said nothing to be too alarmed about. We'll check again in two weeks, but I think most of the numbers are heading in the right direction. yay. She's also finally eating her regular food! For a few days now I've hand fed her piece by piece, but I've gradually worked her up to eating on her own completely this morning. I've only put her back on a small dose of vetmedin and a smaller dose of lasix and I have a bunch of supplements and he said the murmur doesnt sound any worse to him. After all that I thought it would for sure.
She's completely normal in her actions, even crazier than normal I'd say. She has all this extra energy and wants to run and play and have me chase her. I am still every day amazed that she lived(!!) and even more so that she's herself because I never thought she'd follow me to the shower again, or pull out my ponytail holders or snif my eyeballs, but she is doing all of that and is at least, for now, 100% herself. So thanks everyone for the thoughts and prayers.


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Holliberry said:


> Well, I think we have some pretty good news. The blood results from Monday are in and she has some elevated things still but he said nothing to be too alarmed about. We'll check again in two weeks, but I think most of the numbers are heading in the right direction. yay. She's also finally eating her regular food! For a few days now I've hand fed her piece by piece, but I've gradually worked her up to eating on her own completely this morning. I've only put her back on a small dose of vetmedin and a smaller dose of lasix and I have a bunch of supplements and he said the murmur doesnt sound any worse to him. After all that I thought it would for sure.
> She's completely normal in her actions, even crazier than normal I'd say. She has all this extra energy and wants to run and play and have me chase her. I am still every day amazed that she lived(!!) and even more so that she's herself because I never thought she'd follow me to the shower again, or pull out my ponytail holders or snif my eyeballs, but she is doing all of that and is at least, for now, 100% herself. So thanks everyone for the thoughts and prayers.


:chili: I am so glad to hear she is doing better


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

That is great news!
So glad she is doing well! :aktion033::aktion033::aktion033:


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Hi. My Archie has a grade 5/6 heart murmur and has two leaky heart valves. He's on several meds at the moment after we saw a Cardiologist a few weeks ago. At first they didn't prescribe a cough med as he was in heart failure. But now he is...but he still coughs a lot!!! But poor Archie is also gets ear infections all the time...so we are nursing one at the moment. And he also has arthritis in his legs - he is due for his monthly Adaquan shot. It's not easy, but we love our pups.....so we do do what we have to...


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