# Doctors are third leading cause of death in US



## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...h-part-one.aspx


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks for sharing! I am a firm believer also that we should be our own health advocate.


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

Can't read the article without subscribing...which I don't want to do


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

:ThankYou: :goodpost: 

I am thankful that one of our good friends is a Family Practice M.D. He's very un-traditional in that he accepts *NO *insurance at all. He's very independent and does not have to obey Big Pharma or Big Insurance. He takes as much time with his patients as he needs, and doesn't over prescribe anything. He isn't holistic, but if I want to use holistic meds, he has no problem with them. He is no longer offering flu shots because he thinks they are overhyped and unnecessary. 

Before we met him, the last time I went to a "Primary Care" physician when I had "health" insurance, I was given a tetanus shot but not told that it also included a DPT booster. Also, she put me on high cholest. Meds. I took them for about 3 weeks. They made me sick. I stopped taking them and just watched my diet. When I went back a few months later for a follow-up, she was happy that my cholest. levels went down. When I told her that I hadn't been taking the meds, she got upset and told me to take them anyway. 

When I had insurance, I also went to several docs and specialists regarding digestion issues. I had several tests. The results were "inconclusive." (They didn't know what was wrong with me.) So I was given Nexium. It me sick. I stopped taking it. I was really sick for about a week. Then I gave up white flour and sugar (for the most part.) The indigestion went away. I told the "specialist" about that, and he said, "oh, that is interesting," and gave me a prescription refill, which I refused. 

Traditional medicine can be a life saver, but for the most part, insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies are running doctor's lives/careers. It has ruined the doctor/patient relationship and our country has certainly NOT gotten healthier. 

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 21 2009, 05:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808038


> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...h-part-one.aspx[/B]


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

For those who don't want to subscribe, here is the article from www.mercola.com:





_Doctors Are The Third Leading Cause of Death in the US, Killing 225,000 People Every Year _ _
_ _This article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) is the best article I have ever seen written in the published literature documenting the tragedy of the traditional medical paradigm. _

_If you want to keep updated on issues like this click here to sign up for my free newsletter._

_This information is a followup of the Institute of Medicine report which hit the papers in December of last year, but the data was hard to reference as it was not in peer-reviewed journal. Now it is published in JAMA which is the most widely circulated medical periodical in the world. _

_The author is Dr. Barbara Starfield of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health and she desribes how the US health care system may contribute to poor health._

_*ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:*_


_*12,000 -- unnecessary surgery *_
_*7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals *_
_*20,000 -- other errors in hospitals *_
_*80,000 -- infections in hospitals *_
_*106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs *_
_*These total to 18. Mold J, Stein H. The cascade effect in the clinical care of patients. N Engl J Med. 1986;314:512-514.

19. Shi L, Starfield B. Income inequality, primary care, and health indicators. J Fam Pract.1999;48:275-284.

</blockquote> *_* 
*


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 21 2009, 07:56 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808048


> :ThankYou: :goodpost:
> 
> I am thankful that one of our good friends is a Family Practice M.D. He's very un-traditional in that he accepts *NO *insurance at all. He's very independent and does not have to obey Big Pharma or Big Insurance. He takes as much time with his patients as he needs, and doesn't over prescribe anything. He isn't holistic, but if I want to use holistic meds, he has no problem with them. He is no longer offering flu shots because he thinks they are overhyped and unnecessary.
> 
> ...





> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...h-part-one.aspx[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

I wholeheartedly agree with your approach. The human body is just amazing, and we owe it to ourselves to listen to and take care of our own. I strongly believe that most people do not realize just how much stress they place on their bodies by not sleeping enough, taking too many meds, eating refined junk food with no real nutrients and lots of preservatives and pesticides. Once you start listening to your body and getting enough sleep and whole foods, you are much more in tune with your body and realize that prevention through nurturing is the best way to good health.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

One of the doctors I see also does not take insurance. It is a HUGE difference from me "regular" insurance primary care. Also, it is not that expensive to pay to see her.


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

I find the whole insurance thing very interesting. We do not have insurance. My state's plan is too expensive for my DH and I and even after we pay the enrollment there are premiums and co-pays that are very large. So, for my husbands neurology needs we are forced to pay out of pocket. His doctor charges us the same rate he charges the state for visits and MRIs. If we had insurance, they would be billed $1500 for an MRI, we pay $567. If we had insurance they would be billed $135 for an office visit - we pay $65. This seems ridiculous that there is such a disparity and this is why insurance rates are through the roof. I understand doctors need to make a living, trust me - I understand it but - the disparity in prices just shows that the prices are overinflated because the insurance companies will either pay the rate or bargain it down, but I assure you it never gets as low as we currently pay. 

I would love to see this practice change.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

My doctor charges $50 for a physical and $20 for a blood test. When I broke my foot, I spent exactly $280.00 for 2 doc visits, 2 x rays, and an aircast boot that I ordered online. I did not see a specialist and was not given any meds. My foot is healed and I didn't go broke. 

Believe it or not, my doctor MAKES HOUSE CALLS!

The insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies have driven the cost of medical care sky high. If doctors were left alone to actually practice medicine, things would be a lot better. I feel sorry for doctors who love medicine because they have been turned into drug pushing slaves instead of healers. 

Now that we have found a great doctor, we're sticking with him and paying out of pocket even if we someday get insurance. 

NOW is the time to learn as much as you can about alternative medicine, nutrition, and holistic health. Things are NOT going to get better in the area of traditional medicine.


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

I can't even begin to imagine how much worse this will get if the government starts managing health care.

Leslie


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 21 2009, 05:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808038


> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...h-part-one.aspx[/B]


 :thmbup: Great article! I recommend everyone subscribe to Mercola's newsletter, he's got some of the best cutting edge info out there.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

The sad thing is that when doctors make mistakes, they bury them.....literally. 

As a cancer survivor I believe in insurance and qualified doctors. Not all drs. are qualified for the diagnosis they hand out. It takes doing one's homework.

**My plastic surgeon doesn't take insurance.


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## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

QUOTE (WoofLife @ Jul 21 2009, 06:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808150


> I can't even begin to imagine how much worse this will get if the government starts managing health care.
> 
> Leslie[/B]


Ha! tell me about it. We have our much vaunted National Health Service - treatment free at point of delivery. BUT those in work pay a 'national insurance' premium to the service based on their salaries/wages throughout their working lives and it is still more or less impossible to get a hospital appointment or a consultation referral. Those who can afford it take out private health insurance and they get seen almost immediately, often by the very consultant who refused to take their referral under the National Health Service. Now... about dentists


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## nonesuchandnadu (Mar 4, 2007)

The article has quite a few flaws. One being the definition of iatrogenic. They got that definition wrong. So, that lead me to question the rest of the "information" contained within the article.

For instance: 

There's no determination for what "unnecessary surgery" means. Cosmetic surgery is not medically necessary.

Medication errors in hospitals. The article strongly implies that this is physician induced. Perhaps, perhaps not. It could be a) transcription error, B) pharmacy error, or c) nurse error to name just a few.

Other errors in hospital. Again the article implies this is physician caused. IT could mean anything from a patient fall to an anaphylactic reaction to latex.

And again with infections. How this can be even primarily caused by the attending physician is not explained. 

I would bet that the rest of the "statistics" cited in the article are as egregiously biased and suspect. Or just blatantly false.

As Benjamin Disraeli said, there are "lies, damned lies and statistics..." Of course, the fact that mercola is a natural health products seller might have them biased towards physicians. Maybe.





QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 21 2009, 08:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808050


> For those who don't want to subscribe, here is the article from www.mercola.com:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nonesuchandnadu (Mar 4, 2007)

QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Jul 21 2009, 11:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808114


> I find the whole insurance thing very interesting. We do not have insurance. My state's plan is too expensive for my DH and I and even after we pay the enrollment there are premiums and co-pays that are very large. So, for my husbands neurology needs we are forced to pay out of pocket. His doctor charges us the same rate he charges the state for visits and MRIs. If we had insurance, they would be billed $1500 for an MRI, we pay $567. If we had insurance they would be billed $135 for an office visit - we pay $65. This seems ridiculous that there is such a disparity and this is why insurance rates are through the roof. I understand doctors need to make a living, trust me - I understand it but - the disparity in prices just shows that the prices are overinflated because the insurance companies will either pay the rate or bargain it down, but I assure you it never gets as low as we currently pay.
> 
> I would love to see this practice change.[/B]


Actually, the disparity in prices has to do with the fact that people with insurance subsidize those with Medicare, Medicaid and the uninsured who don't pay their bills. So, a person without insurance pays full price so that the other uninsured person who gets the same test, but refuses to pay can get the same test. I can absolutely promise you that most physician's are not getting rich. People tend to forget the expenses that a physician's office has - depending upon specialty, malpractice insurance alone can be 1/2 a doc's income. Then there's office space, equipment, staff, staff's insurance coverage, etc. As an example, my husband has to make twice his income to pay for all of that. Think about it. TWICE his income. If he doesn't work those hours, people aren't going to get paid, patients aren't going to be seen. When it's broken down into hourly pay, then he's not much above minimum wage. But he does it because he loves his patients and he loves solving puzzles.

In addition, the physician doesn't get any part of the $$ paid for a diagnostic test unless that test in performed in his office (and in those cases, it's minimal). So, the MRI money is paid to whoever owns the MRI. And by Federal law, the ordering physician may NOT have any financial stake in the place. Prices are high because the USA is the innovator in new treatments and medicines. And the rest of the world depends upon us to be just that.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (NonesuchandNadu @ Jul 21 2009, 04:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808216


> QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Jul 21 2009, 11:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808114





> I find the whole insurance thing very interesting. We do not have insurance. My state's plan is too expensive for my DH and I and even after we pay the enrollment there are premiums and co-pays that are very large. So, for my husbands neurology needs we are forced to pay out of pocket. His doctor charges us the same rate he charges the state for visits and MRIs. If we had insurance, they would be billed $1500 for an MRI, we pay $567. If we had insurance they would be billed $135 for an office visit - we pay $65. This seems ridiculous that there is such a disparity and this is why insurance rates are through the roof. I understand doctors need to make a living, trust me - I understand it but - the disparity in prices just shows that the prices are overinflated because the insurance companies will either pay the rate or bargain it down, but I assure you it never gets as low as we currently pay.
> 
> I would love to see this practice change.[/B]


Actually, the disparity in prices has to do with the fact that people with insurance subsidize those with Medicare, Medicaid and the uninsured who don't pay their bills. So, a person without insurance pays full price so that the other uninsured person who gets the same test, but refuses to pay can get the same test. I can absolutely promise you that most physician's are not getting rich. People tend to forget the expenses that a physician's office has - depending upon specialty, malpractice insurance alone can be 1/2 a doc's income. Then there's office space, equipment, staff, staff's insurance coverage, etc. As an example, my husband has to make twice his income to pay for all of that. Think about it. TWICE his income. If he doesn't work those hours, people aren't going to get paid, patients aren't going to be seen. When it's broken down into hourly pay, then he's not much above minimum wage. But he does it because he loves his patients and he loves solving puzzles.

In addition, the physician doesn't get any part of the $ paid for a diagnostic test unless that test in performed in his office (and in those cases, it's minimal). So, the MRI money is paid to whoever owns the MRI. And by Federal law, the ordering physician may NOT have any financial stake in the place. Prices are high because the USA is the innovator in new treatments and medicines. And the rest of the world depends upon us to be just that.

[/B][/QUOTE]


Like I said before, I feel sorry for the doctors. My doctor friend is not rich by any means, so I know what you mean. It's the government, the insurance companies, and the pharmaceuticals companies that are to blame, not the doctors. Socialized medicine doesn't fix anything, it makes it worse.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

QUOTE (NonesuchandNadu @ Jul 21 2009, 04:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808215


> The article has quite a few flaws. One being the definition of iatrogenic. They got that definition wrong. So, that lead me to question the rest of the "information" contained within the article.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> ...





> For those who don't want to subscribe, here is the article from www.mercola.com:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]

Mercola did not sell anything on his website for a long time. It was getting too expensive for him to pay $50,000 a year to keep the website running so he decided to sell health care products.

All the facts may not be perfect (this is so with most studies) but one thing is for sure - doctors, medicine and mistakes kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. 
And I'm sure the number is bigger for people who have lost their quality of life.

One of my favorite quotes is by Voltaire
Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little,
to cure diseases of which they know less,
in human beings of whom they know nothing.

I am thankful that we have doctors. Unfortunately most have no concept of what the body needs to heal and to keep it from getting sick in the first place! However, there are those like Mercola who realize this and are making a huge difference for people and animals. :heart:


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 21 2009, 06:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808226


> QUOTE (NonesuchandNadu @ Jul 21 2009, 04:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808215





> The article has quite a few flaws. One being the definition of iatrogenic. They got that definition wrong. So, that lead me to question the rest of the "information" contained within the article.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> ...





> For those who don't want to subscribe, here is the article from www.mercola.com:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]

Mercola did not sell anything on his website for a long time. It was getting too expensive for him to pay $50,000 a year to keep the website running so he decided to sell health care products.

All the facts may not be perfect (this is so with most studies) but one thing is for sure - doctors, medicine and mistakes kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. 
And I'm sure the number is bigger for people who have lost their quality of life.

One of my favorite quotes is by Voltaire
Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little,
to cure diseases of which they know less,
in human beings of whom they know nothing.

I am thankful that we have doctors. Unfortunately most have no concept of what the body needs to heal and to keep it from getting sick in the first place! However, there are those like Mercola who realize this and are making a huge difference for people and animals. :heart:
[/B][/QUOTE]

My brain is nearly fried by the Constitution (lol) so excuse me if I am rambling but I just want to say that I find your quotation of Voltaire misfitting. Where did you find this quotation? Voltaire said *many *things in his life, as well as making racist remarks against people of color and other religions. While I liked his advocacy on civil liberties, he is certainly not my favorite thinkers. We can agree to differ on that. You can PM me if you like to discuss Voltaire further b/c I do not want to hijack this thread. 

Second, "medicine" in Voltaire time (1700s) is NOTHING like modern medicine today. So, whatever he might have thought of doctors or "medicine" back then is inapplicable to modern times. Therefore, his remarks, even if true, are irrelevant to the discussion of modern medicine. But, if they are your personal favorites, then that is certainly your right. I am only objecting to the relevancy of Voltaire's comments, not your personal likes. Although I have a lay person suspicion that poor hygiene probably killed more people in 1700s then "doctors."

Third, having 2 doctors in my family as well as 2 high school friends who just graduated from the top medical school in this country in May, I can tell you that doctors are NOT men who "have no concept of what the body needs." I think your broad remarks about incompetent doctors are unfair and very prejudicial against those doctors who are very intelligent, who know a great deal knowledge (more than any of us can probably imagine) and who actually cure people. 

Like ALL professions, there are the "stars" and then there are people who are just purely incompetent and should have picked another career. That is why some are successful and some are not. Like the practice of law, there are GREAT attorneys, and MANY not so great ones. LOL. Same w/ doctors. Thats why there is malpractice carriers. lol. There are those who graduate from top medical schools top of their class, and become neurosurgeons. Then, there are those who cant get into any American medical schools and need to go to the Caribbean medical schools and then try to come back to pass the boards in the USA. Like all professions, there ARE differences of intelligence and competency, as well as the level of their sophistication (equipment, technology, resources) based on locale. For example, NY Presbyterian would certainly posses much more resources then a rural country hospital. So, it depends on *where* you go to seek medical advice and *which* doctor you choose. 

My main post is that we are each own responsible for our own health care, as Sophia said earlier. We need to be accountable for our own diets, exercise and not just only run to the doctors because we see symptoms of illness. Often times that is 1 step too late. If we take more proactive approach to our own health then doctors will be able to engage in PREVENTIVE care rather then always resorting to prescribing us medicine when we are already ill. I see my relationship w/ my doctors as a "team" where I take equal responsibility for my well being. 

I agree that many doctors in the USA commit malpractice that result in death or other serious bodily injuries. Believe me I know b/c thats how many lawyers earn their living..and thats why law students study med mal. lol. But, just because there are those doctors who probably should not been practicing, there are also many who are blessings to their patients. 

*sorry for any typos in this post.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

^^ Very well said Alice! I plan on either being a surgeon or anesthesiologist and I want people to trust me!


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## nonesuchandnadu (Mar 4, 2007)

_Mercola did not sell anything on his website for a long time. It was getting too expensive for him to pay $50,000 a year to keep the website running so he decided to sell health care products.
All the facts may not be perfect (this is so with most studies) but one thing is for sure - doctors, medicine and mistakes kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. 
And I'm sure the number is bigger for people who have lost their quality of life._

*He has an agenda as do many people. I'm not saying that is either good or bad. I am saying that the article goes beyond being misleading. It is outright dishonest.*

_One of my favorite quotes is by Voltaire
Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little,
to cure diseases of which they know less,
in human beings of whom they know nothing.

I am thankful that we have doctors. Unfortunately most have no concept of what the body needs to heal and to keep it from getting sick in the first place! However, there are those like Mercola who realize this and are making a huge difference for people and animals. _

*Please don't take offense, but seriously? I don't know any doctor to whom that quote would apply. Every single physician with whom I'm acquainted knows more about their particular areas of expertise than any lay person could hope to know. Holistic or natural remedies have their places (especially if you are healthy), but are of significant less use when someone is really sick. And no, most physicians do have knowledge of what a body needs to heal and keep from getting sick. I'd even hazard to say that most docs are better at it than Mercola and that bad physicians are outliers rather than the norm.

As I said, I cannot give any credence to an article that has so many misleading statements. He either intentionally did this or he doesn't know how to read a study. Even the title is dishonest. There's also the possibility that the study upon which he has based his article is flawed. At best, he appears to be confusing causation with correlation. *


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE


> My brain is nearly fried by the Constitution (lol) so excuse me if I am rambling but I just want to say that I find your quotation of Voltaire misfitting. Where did you find this quotation? Voltaire said *many *things in his life, as well as making racist remarks against people of color and other religions. While I liked his advocacy on civil liberties, he is certainly not my favorite thinkers. We can agree to differ on that. You can PM me if you like to discuss Voltaire further b/c I do not want to hijack this thread.
> 
> Second, "medicine" in Voltaire time (1700s) is NOTHING like modern medicine today. So, whatever he might have thought of doctors or "medicine" back then is inapplicable to modern times. Therefore, his remarks, even if true, are irrelevant to the discussion of modern medicine. But, if they are your personal favorites, then that is certainly your right. I am only objecting to the relevancy of Voltaire's comments, not your personal likes. Although I have a lay person suspicion that poor hygiene probably killed more people in 1700s then "doctors."
> 
> ...



Alice, I agree with a lot of what you said. I think that there are major issues with the medical industry today and most of it has to do with massive bureaucracy that insurance and pharma has created, not the individual doctors. If doctors were left alone to be the healers they were supposed to be, then many of these problems would not exist. I have many physician friends and they are good, hardworking people who want to heal their patients, but they say time and time again that they are hampered by insurance companies, drug companies and hospital bureaucracy/politics. 

And then I've come across those doctors who could care less about their patients, and take 5 minutes to write a prescription and dismiss you. And THOSE are the ones that shouldn't be practicing because they are nothing but drug pushers. Just like in any field, you have your good and your bad. The point of the article is to give examples of how the INDUSTRY itself has grown too insane, and what the results are. Mistakes.

Anyway, Mercola is an MD who practices holistic medicine. I don't always agree with everything he says/does, and yes he sells stuff, but he didn't for a long time. But so what? Everyone sells stuff. And is he any different than those doctors who push unnecessary drugs on patients because some cute pharma rep gave them perks? Just like government, medicine has grown way too big for itself, and those who have the big bucks can bypass all the red tape and get treated the best. The "regular" folks will have to endure being treated with less than kindness. And the poor? Forget it. And it won't change after we have govt. healthcare, it will only get worse.

And BTW, I am so glad _someone_ is studying the Constitution! Maybe you could encourage some of our politicians to do the same. LOL

Cheers!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (NonesuchandNadu @ Jul 21 2009, 08:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808268


> _Mercola did not sell anything on his website for a long time. It was getting too expensive for him to pay $50,000 a year to keep the website running so he decided to sell health care products.
> All the facts may not be perfect (this is so with most studies) but one thing is for sure - doctors, medicine and mistakes kill hundreds of thousands of people a year.
> And I'm sure the number is bigger for people who have lost their quality of life._
> 
> ...



I'd have to respectfully disagree about holistic medicine. Actually, holistic medicine does much more than traditional medicine. It is truly PREVENTATIVE and well-rounded in its nature. 

Holistic care givers teach their clients ways to take care of their bodies to help the immune system _prevent _disease. If disease is present, then holistic care givers help their clients cure or manage the disease. Once cured, a holistic care giver will help the client return their immune system to a strong state, often without unnecessary drugs that have negative side effects and weaken the immune system.

And it is unfair and untrue to say that you cannot use holistic medicine for serious illness. I know of many people who were terminally ill who were cured by holistic methods. And unfortunately I know of a couple of people who were not helped at all by traditional medicine and the consequences were heartbreaking. 

Everyone has their views on both sides of the coin and I am sure that those of us here on SM forum mean no offense. And yes, I agree, many studies are flawed, on both sides of these arguments. There are people who have been hurt very seriously by traditional medicine, and can relate to some of the points of the article. I believe that the best way to treat illness is to consider both traditional and alternative methods and I in no way discourage people from doing that. But the sick thing is, insurance companies don't normally pay for what is REAL preventative ongoing care, like nutrition education, supplements, exercise, etc., usually they pay just for illness. There is something terribly wrong with that. And something terribly wrong with how the FDA works with Big Pharma, and how much of the testing is flawed.

Let me just say that my friend who is a doctor (and a very good one, very well-known in the community and he works in upper management at the local hospital as well as having his own independent practice) has often told me that many doctors don't know much about the medicine they prescribe except for what the pharmaceutical reps and the company literature handouts say. And also that many doctors know next to nothing about nutrition, and ask their patients very few questions about their lifestyle. So I suppose that Voltaire quote can indeed apply to SOME doctors, and I wish that people would understand the cynicism in that quote and not take such offense. Sheesh.

When we get into these discussions, I always ask "Cui Bono?" Who benefits? Who benefits from illness? From cancer, and diabetes, and heart disease? Who? 

It isn't the patient, right? And it really isn't the doctors because they can't keep up with all this red tape. It's the pharmaceutical industry and insurance companies that benefit big time. And they are the bosses of the physicians. And we are such an advanced civilization yet we haven't discovered any cures for these things? Makes you wonder.


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## nonesuchandnadu (Mar 4, 2007)

Just have to comment on this, then I'll bow out because I may be irritating people:

_And is he any different than those doctors who push unnecessary drugs on patients because some cute pharma rep gave them perks? _

It's kind of cynical to think that would really influence a physician in writing a script. The only benefit for a physician to writing a script is for the patient to get better. They have zero financial or other non-patient related incentive to pick one drug over another. I don't even think they can give the "perks" (pens, office lunches, sticky pads) anymore.

And I think pharmaceutical companies get an undeserved bad rap. They're on the cutting edge of treatment and saving lives. Every pharm company has programs to provide their medications for free or at substantially reduced costs to those unable to afford them. But they never get any credit for developing those drugs that treat cancer, relieve arthritis pain or keep a heart beat regular.

ETA: Yeah, I don't subscribe to the notion that pharm companies have some conspiracy to invent all these diseases so they can develop drugs to treat them. I'm not a proponent of holistic treatment for seriously ill individuals. Occam's razor and all that.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

^^thanks Suzanne. I agree w/ what you wrote as well. I dont know anything about Dr. Mercola. Actually, I never heard of his name until this post and I admit I did not read the article neither. :behindsofa: 

But, I dont mind that he sells "stuff" or advocates holistic medicine. That is his 1st amendment right and I dont hold that against him, nor would I use it against his credibility. Many famous people (doctors, lawyers) write books, or have "products" for sale, that doesn't mean they are less knowledgeable than their counterparts. They might actually have good intentions in offering their products to the public. Now, if (hypothetically) he had committed malpractice then thats another story...lol...

I dont know enough about holistic medicine to comment much but the little I do know, I agree with. I think it is a reasonable alternative approach to health care and better living overall. But personally, I probably would only use it as a supplement to my medical doctor's advice. I might be wrong in that thinking but that is just how I feel at this point. Maybe if I learn more about holistic medicine later on I will change me opinions.

btw- is Dr. Mercola a MD or a D.O?

PS- Trust me, I really do NOT want to be studying the Constitution (with all due respect to our founding fathers)...I am not doing it by choice!!! lol


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jul 21 2009, 09:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808284


> ^^thanks Suzanne. I agree w/ what you wrote as well. I dont know anything about Dr. Mercola. Actually, I never heard of his name until this post and I admit I did not read the article neither. :behindsofa:
> 
> But, I dont mind that he sells "stuff" or advocates holistic medicine. That is his 1st amendment right and I dont hold that against him, nor would I use it against his credibility. Many famous people (doctors, lawyers) write books, or have "products" for sale, that doesn't mean they are less knowledgeable than their counterparts. They might actually have good intentions in offering their products to the public. Now, if (hypothetically) he had committed malpractice then thats another story...lol...
> 
> ...


I don't know Mercola's full credentials but I do know that he is some sort of MD or DO.

I really like the Constitution. I'm a history nerd, lol.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (NonesuchandNadu @ Jul 21 2009, 09:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808283


> Just have to comment on this, then I'll bow out because I may be irritating people:
> 
> _And is he any different than those doctors who push unnecessary drugs on patients because some cute pharma rep gave them perks? _
> 
> ...




We will agree to disagree. Defend traditional medicine all you want, I've had a different experience with it, and heard many heartbreaking stories. I don't believe in conspiracy theories but I believe that *the almighty dollar rules.* And it surely rules the big pharma industry. If anyone truly believes that the pharma reps don't try their best to sell sell sell their products to docs and sometimes offer perks (and I didn't mean anything sexual in nature, I meant gifts, paid conferences in beautiful locations, etc.) then someone isn't telling them the whole story. Like I mentioned before, my doc friends talk about their careers, and it is common knowledge. Pharmaceutical companies for the most part, sell sickness, not health. Yes, antibiotics are useful. Yes, other medications can save people. But for the most part, these synthetic meds cause more problems than they cure.

I have seen many people become chronically ill from the side effects of prescription and otc meds. I have my own experiences to draw from. I've worked in the health food/supplement industry and I have NEVER seen one person get chronically ill from holistic treatment. 

So instead of endlessly debating the two types of treatment, we'll agree to disagree because this is a subject I feel passionately about and have studied for a long time. This is not the place for this type of debate. 

If people want to use prescription meds and otc meds, and see allopathic doctors for every little thing that's fine with me. I wish that big pharma and Big medicine folks felt the same about holistic medicine. The government, traditional medicine and Pharma need to stop trying to regulate, ridicule, and smear alternative health treatments every chance they get. It's still a free country (barely) and I will do what I want with my own health. For now, at least. 

Well, have a great evening, everyone!


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Jul 21 2009, 07:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808256


> QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 21 2009, 06:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808226





> QUOTE (NonesuchandNadu @ Jul 21 2009, 04:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808215





> The article has quite a few flaws. One being the definition of iatrogenic. They got that definition wrong. So, that lead me to question the rest of the "information" contained within the article.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> ...





> For those who don't want to subscribe, here is the article from www.mercola.com:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]

Mercola did not sell anything on his website for a long time. It was getting too expensive for him to pay $50,000 a year to keep the website running so he decided to sell health care products.

All the facts may not be perfect (this is so with most studies) but one thing is for sure - doctors, medicine and mistakes kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. 
And I'm sure the number is bigger for people who have lost their quality of life.

One of my favorite quotes is by Voltaire
Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little,
to cure diseases of which they know less,
in human beings of whom they know nothing.

I am thankful that we have doctors. Unfortunately most have no concept of what the body needs to heal and to keep it from getting sick in the first place! However, there are those like Mercola who realize this and are making a huge difference for people and animals. :heart:
[/B][/QUOTE]

My brain is nearly fried by the Constitution (lol) so excuse me if I am rambling but I just want to say that I find your quotation of Voltaire misfitting. Where did you find this quotation? Voltaire said *many *things in his life, as well as making racist remarks against people of color and other religions. While I liked his advocacy on civil liberties, he is certainly not my favorite thinkers. We can agree to differ on that. You can PM me if you like to discuss Voltaire further b/c I do not want to hijack this thread. 

Second, "medicine" in Voltaire time (1700s) is NOTHING like modern medicine today. So, whatever he might have thought of doctors or "medicine" back then is inapplicable to modern times. Therefore, his remarks, even if true, are irrelevant to the discussion of modern medicine. But, if they are your personal favorites, then that is certainly your right. I am only objecting to the relevancy of Voltaire's comments, not your personal likes. Although I have a lay person suspicion that poor hygiene probably killed more people in 1700s then "doctors."

Third, having 2 doctors in my family as well as 2 high school friends who just graduated from the top medical school in this country in May, I can tell you that doctors are NOT men who "have no concept of what the body needs." I think your broad remarks about incompetent doctors are unfair and very prejudicial against those doctors who are very intelligent, who know a great deal knowledge (more than any of us can probably imagine) and who actually cure people. 

Like ALL professions, there are the "stars" and then there are people who are just purely incompetent and should have picked another career. That is why some are successful and some are not. Like the practice of law, there are GREAT attorneys, and MANY not so great ones. LOL. Same w/ doctors. Thats why there is malpractice carriers. lol. There are those who graduate from top medical schools top of their class, and become neurosurgeons. Then, there are those who cant get into any American medical schools and need to go to the Caribbean medical schools and then try to come back to pass the boards in the USA. Like all professions, there ARE differences of intelligence and competency, as well as the level of their sophistication (equipment, technology, resources) based on locale. For example, NY Presbyterian would certainly posses much more resources then a rural country hospital. So, it depends on *where* you go to seek medical advice and *which* doctor you choose. 

My main post is that we are each own responsible for our own health care, as Sophia said earlier. We need to be accountable for our own diets, exercise and not just only run to the doctors because we see symptoms of illness. Often times that is 1 step too late. If we take more proactive approach to our own health then doctors will be able to engage in PREVENTIVE care rather then always resorting to prescribing us medicine when we are already ill. I see my relationship w/ my doctors as a "team" where I take equal responsibility for my well being. 

I agree that many doctors in the USA commit malpractice that result in death or other serious bodily injuries. Believe me I know b/c thats how many lawyers earn their living..and thats why law students study med mal. lol. But, just because there are those doctors who probably should not been practicing, there are also many who are blessings to their patients. 

*sorry for any typos in this post.
[/B][/QUOTE]




You took the quote literally. It was not meant as an attack on doctors. The deeper meaning of that quote is that the complexity of the human body, mind and spirit, and the miracle of life and healing, can never be truly understood through a microscope. Einstein knew that well. 

As far as going to the smartest doctors who've gone to the best schools, well sometimes (often) the smartest and most educated people lack the common sense to make the right judgment calls. There are some amazing doctors out there but they are a small number (just like every other professional group). I believe most doctors want to help people, but many of them are informed by the conventional medical paradigm - and that's way to narrow for me to trust with my health. 

I do believe I can say with confidence that most doctors do not know about the many aspects of healing. They have little education in nutrition and we all know that food can play a huge part in healing the body. Most do not know much about the emotional or spiritual component of healing either. Modern medicine has its place but there are many other forms of healing (too numerous to mention) that come without side effects or invasive procedures. 

I apologize if I offended you. I don't know Voltaire's other writings so that was not my intention. Also I said the quote was one of my favorites, not that Voltaire was my favorite.

It is my wish that noone should suffer physically like I did. Whenever you see me post on health issues it's always my intention to help others avoid what I went through - avoid sickness, pain and disability. So please be aware there is a very sensitive, compassionate and caring person here who wants to see all people, and their deserving animals, have good health and well being.


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

IMO, western medicine doesn't heal you; it doesn't focus on the root of the problem, and it only treats/masks symptoms. Just because symptoms are suppressed, does not mean that you are cured, and it certainly does not mean that you are well. Ignoring the underlying cause of the disease and attacking the symptoms with drugs can lead to side effects that are actually worse than the original disease.

It is my personal belief that the human body is fully capable of healing itself, given that it receives the nutrients it needs. These nutrients are found in whole, unprocessed, "real" food, which, IMO, is the best medicine there is. Hippocrates once said, "Leave your drugs in the chemist's pot if you can heal the patient with food." I agree wholeheartedly. 

The truth of the matter is, there are quite a few physicians and professors who accept "gifts" from pharmaceutical companies in exchange for hawking/prescribing their products. This is not thinking cynically. It's fact. One of my dad's friends is a very well-respected pediatrician in the Bay Area. In fact, he's the most well-known pediatrician in the Korean community in this area. He's constantly invited to company-sponsored seminars where free lunches/dinners are provided. Some sales reps even bring him delicious lunches to the office! He gets free samples, supplies, and other types of "gifts" from so many different pharmaceutical companies, as many, many physicians do. This can definitely influence a physician to prescribe certain drugs to patients. Am I saying that all doctors are like this? Absolutely not. I do realize that there are many out there who have only the best intentions in helping out their patients. But to suggest that receiving "perks" has no bearing on what medication a physician prescribes to his/her patient is naive.

A little while ago, the NY Times wrote an article about Harvard professors receiving lavish gifts from pharmaceutical companies in exchange for promoting their drugs. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/business/03medschool.html

In case anyone's interested, here are some more articles regarding big pharma companies:
http://www.naturalnews.com/002884.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/010944.html
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/ploy3.html
http://www.economist.com/business/displays...tory_id=1736488

I'm an advocate of education over medication. Just remember to always do your research, especially when it comes to something as important as health.


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

Here's the last article I posted, for those who don't want to subscribe. 

Is Big Pharma the next target for attack?

BIG Tobacco, Big Banking–and now Big Pharma? It seems fanciful to speculate during a week in which Pfizer reported profits, for its latest quarter, of $4.7 billion, that America's mighty pharmaceuticals giants might find themselves vulnerable to the political attacks that have tormented some of America's other large industries.

Yet the parallels mount. Like the tobacco firms and investment banks before them, drugs firms face a dynamic, grassroots movement, centred on the states and driven by powerful economics, that bypasses their well-financed defences in Washington, DC.

Disarmed of their lobbyists and friends in Congress, they appear to have no compelling answer to these attacks. And their billions of dollars in profits, of course, are precisely what makes them such tempting targets.

The attack on the tobacco industry (worth $22 billion in settlement payments so far to the states alone) focused on smoking's harmful effects, and made full use of the courts.

The post-bubble assault on investment banking is highlighting sales and marketing practices, and is using the court of public opinion as much as lawsuits. (New York's attorney-general, Eliot Spitzer, won a $1.4 billion settlement without ever bringing formal charges against banks, nor hinting at what such charges might be.)

‌The campaign against Big Pharma borrows some of these earlier tactics. States such as Connecticut and (inevitably) New York, thanks to Mr Spitzer, are filing suits against drug firms that challenge sales and marketing practices which the industry says have gone on for years. Connecticut's, for instance, claims that the state "has been scammed by drug companies seeking to make a profit off our neediest citizens".

But so far, these lawsuits seem designed more to harass and distract the drugs industry with bad publicity than to deliver a knock-out punch–though that may change. The real battle involves state governors and their budget officers, and centres on the vexed question of drug pricing.

America spends more money on drugs ($149 billion in the year to February, according to IMS Health, a research firm) than Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Spain put together. This is partly because Americans consume more drugs. But prices in America are also much higher. The market has more freedom to set prices than governments allow in Canada, Europe or Japan.

For the drugs companies, the politics of these arrangements have become increasingly toxic. One problem is that voters personally bear more and more of the cost of expensive, branded drugs in America–and hence feel those high prices directly.

The lack of a comprehensive prescription-drug benefit for the elderly means that nearly half of elderly Americans lack prescription-drug coverage at some point in the year, according to AARP, a lobby group.

Private health insurers, such as Blue Cross Blue Shield, are increasingly shifting the cost of expensive new drugs on to consumers, by introducing higher "co-payments" for branded drugs. Fewer and fewer employers, meanwhile, offer prescription-drug benefits to retired workers. The uninsured tend to pay particularly high prices for their drugs.

At the same time, the internet is making more Americans aware of the high prices they pay for drugs compared with shoppers in other countries. Some have begun to shop for cheaper drugs online from Canadian internet pharmacies which have sprouted along the border.
What cure?

The states, which face the biggest hole in their budgets since the second world war, are finding ways to harness this anger. Although they do not contribute to Medicare, a federally-financed health-care scheme for elderly Americans, the states pay a large chunk of the costs of Medicaid, which provides coverage for the poorest. Medicaid also foots much of the bill for drugs for the elderly because Medicare does not cover prescription drugs.

Some states are following Michigan's pioneering use of approved-drug lists to wring discounts from drugs firms. (Because exclusion from such lists means that doctors must obtain special, hard-to-win approval to prescribe a drug, the industry argues that such tactics amount to holding patients hostage.)

Michigan says it saved $45 million on its drugs bill last year by demanding discounts from the "average wholesale price" (a reference price for bureaucrats) in order to be included on its list.

Michigan now says it wants the same discount of up to 70% (partly government mandated) enjoyed by the Veterans Health Administration, another big, public-sector buyer, and is inviting other states, such as Wisconsin, South Carolina and Vermont, to join hands. Vermont and Maine, meanwhile, hope to extend the benefits of discounted purchases beyond Medicaid to state employees and other beneficiaries.

So what are the drugs firms to do? The industry used to thwart such tactics by citing "patients' access": everyone has a right to the best drugs, and doctors must remain in charge of prescribing. But as the politics sour, the industry increasingly finds itself having to justify, in more fundamental ways, the prices it charges Americans. Its answers are not wholly convincing.

One handy appeal is to the benefits of the free market. Thus, Big Pharma maintains that America's liberal pricing system stimulates world-beating innovation, as firms spend their R&D dollars more freely in the hope of winning the fatter profits that America offers. Thus, the creeping price controls pursued by the states harm innovation and new-drug development.

Several things undermine this defence. For a start, even America's system is a hybrid mix of free-market liberalism and price controls. The worst-off sometimes get the worst deal because bulk purchasers can negotiate discounts. That may be a political problem, but the industry offers apologetic programmes that dish out free drugs to impoverished Americans.

Likewise, many people regard it as unfair that Canadians pay much less money for the same drug than Americans do. American consumers, in effect, subsidise Canadian ones–another political problem that the drugs firms can do little about.

Another problem is the perception that drugs firms somehow rig the market, by bribing doctors with free, or cheap, drugs and spending billions of dollars on advertising to persuade consumers of the virtues of expensive and unnecessary therapies.

Connecticut's lawsuit claims that seven drugs firms sold their drugs to doctors and pharmacies at prices well below the rates at which the state reimbursed these customers–and that the drugs firms marketed the "spread" between the two sets of prices as an inducement to buy.

The industry argues that such practices are a way of reimbursing doctors for costs they cannot claim from the states, and that free samples go to the poor. But "the public used to think of us as the men in white coats," says one lobbyist. Now, he says, they are seen as ugly, sales-and-marketing giants that use lawyers, lobbyists and ad men to profit from the public.

In fact, as a percentage of sales, drugs firms spend no more on marketing (10.6%, according to PhRMA, an industry lobby) than they did in 1997. (Spending on R&D is also unchanged, at about 18% of sales.) What has changed is direct-to-consumer advertising, which rose from $1.1 billion in 1997 to $3 billion in 2001. It is this sharp increase that seems to be changing the way Americans regard drugs firms.

If that is right, the industry's problems could become much worse. As the strains on state, federal and corporate budgets grow heavier in the next year or two, these bulk purchasers will want to shift even more of the cost of branded drugs on to the shoulders of consumers–or simply discourage their use altogether by promoting cheap generic alternatives. Big Pharma will no doubt respond by increasing its own advertising to consumers.

The industry still thinks it has a good story to tell: using more drugs, it says, lowers the overall health-care budget by reducing more costly outlays, such as surgery, as well as getting people back to work faster. But why should politicians such as Mr Spitzer care about the long-term economics, when the short-term opportunities are so enticing?


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

[/QUOTE]




You took the quote literally. It was not meant as an attack on doctors. The deeper meaning of that quote is that the complexity of the human body, mind and spirit, and the miracle of life and healing, can never be truly understood through a microscope. Einstein knew that well. 

As far as going to the smartest doctors who've gone to the best schools, well sometimes (often) the smartest and most educated people lack the common sense to make the right judgment calls. There are some amazing doctors out there but they are a small number (just like every other professional group). I believe most doctors want to help people, but many of them are informed by the conventional medical paradigm - and that's way to narrow for me to trust with my health. 

I do believe I can say with confidence that most doctors do not know about the many aspects of healing. They have little education in nutrition and we all know that food can play a huge part in healing the body. Most do not know much about the emotional or spiritual component of healing either. Modern medicine has its place but there are many other forms of healing (too numerous to mention) that come without side effects or invasive procedures. 

I apologize if I offended you. I don't know Voltaire's other writings so that was not my intention. Also I said the quote was one of my favorites, not that Voltaire was my favorite.

It is my wish that noone should suffer physically like I did. Whenever you see me post on health issues it's always my intention to help others avoid what I went through - avoid sickness, pain and disability. So please be aware there is a very sensitive, compassionate and caring person here who wants to see all people, and their deserving animals, have good health and well being.
[/QUOTE]


:ThankYou: :goodpost: 


That's what we all want, that no one should suffer. That's why I post info on health.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 22 2009, 05:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808395


> IMO, western medicine doesn't heal you; it doesn't focus on the root of the problem, and it only treats/masks symptoms. Just because symptoms are suppressed, does not mean that you are cured, and it certainly does not mean that you are well. Ignoring the underlying cause of the disease and attacking the symptoms with drugs can lead to side effects that are actually worse than the original disease.
> 
> It is my personal belief that the human body is fully capable of healing itself, given that it receives the nutrients it needs. These nutrients are found in whole, unprocessed, "real" food, which, IMO, is the best medicine there is. Hippocrates once said, "Leave your drugs in the chemist's pot if you can heal the patient with food." I agree wholeheartedly.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: Yes this is the reason my immune system went in a downward spiral. If I had someone to tell me to lay off the artificial sweeteners, hydrogenated oil, fake food, maybe do some prayer and/or meditation I believe my body would have healed. Instead, medicine further weakened my immune system and I became really sick. Yes, the body is meant to self-heal if we just take out what shouldn't be there, put in what should, and also tend to our spiritual and emotional lives - the rest is up to Gd. (That said, of course there are times medication is necessary.) 

Seriously I thought people tuned into the medical community were well aware of the pharmaceutical "perks" and that pharma companies are far from angels wanting to cure the world. As Suzan said, it's all about the bottom line. Example, Gardasil (the vaccine for cervical cancer) is killing and paralyzing girls and Europe is banning it. Well, the pharma companies have this information. Why are they allowing it to stay on the market without telling women that they could be one less woman....alive? And the FDA is allowing it :huh: 

Anyway thanks for the great information. And thank you to those who sent well wishes :heart: 
Sunnie


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

The Doctors are fighting back! Good for them!

http://www.doctorsonstrike.com/


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 22 2009, 07:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808853


> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 22 2009, 05:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808395





> IMO, western medicine doesn't heal you; it doesn't focus on the root of the problem, and it only treats/masks symptoms. Just because symptoms are suppressed, does not mean that you are cured, and it certainly does not mean that you are well. Ignoring the underlying cause of the disease and attacking the symptoms with drugs can lead to side effects that are actually worse than the original disease.
> 
> It is my personal belief that the human body is fully capable of healing itself, given that it receives the nutrients it needs. These nutrients are found in whole, unprocessed, "real" food, which, IMO, is the best medicine there is. Hippocrates once said, "Leave your drugs in the chemist's pot if you can heal the patient with food." I agree wholeheartedly.
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: Yes this is the reason my immune system went in a downward spiral. If I had someone to tell me to lay off the artificial sweeteners, hydrogenated oil, fake food, maybe do some prayer and/or meditation I believe my body would have healed. Instead, medicine further weakened my immune system and I became really sick. Yes, the body is meant to self-heal if we just take out what shouldn't be there, put in what should, and also tend to our spiritual and emotional lives - the rest is up to Gd. (That said, of course there are times medication is necessary.) 

Seriously I thought people tuned into the medical community were well aware of the pharmaceutical "perks" and that pharma companies are far from angels wanting to cure the world. As Suzan said, it's all about the bottom line. Example, Gardasil (the vaccine for cervical cancer) is killing and paralyzing girls and Europe is banning it. Well, the pharma companies have this information. Why are they allowing it to stay on the market without telling women that they could be one less woman....alive? And the FDA is allowing it :huh: 

Anyway thanks for the great information. And thank you to those who sent well wishes :heart: 
Sunnie
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sunnie,

I'm glad to hear that you are building your immune system back up! I'm sorry to hear that you were sick, and I wish you nothing but the best of luck. I'm building mine back up, as well, via diet (putting in what my nourishes my body and weeding out all the things that are toxic to my body) and supplements.  So far, the benefits have been great! 

As far as the FDA goes, in all honesty, I wouldn't put much trust in them, since a large amount of their budget is funded by the drug companies the FDA is supposedly regulating, LOL.

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Jul 23 2009, 05:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808947


> The Doctors are fighting back! Good for them!
> 
> http://www.doctorsonstrike.com/[/B]


Cool! It's good to know that doctors are being proactive and trying to put an end to more health care controlled and run by the government! Thanks for sharing this.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Sorry for posting late..I totally forgot about this thread. :brownbag: 

QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 22 2009, 01:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808391


> You took the quote literally. It was not meant as an attack on doctors. The deeper meaning of that quote is that the complexity of the human body, mind and spirit, and the miracle of life and healing, can never be truly understood through a microscope. Einstein knew that well.
> 
> I took your quote literally because when people use quotations or references to other articles and incorporate that into their own writings, they are either: 1) trying to bolster their own points or 2) using the outside reference to make a new point.
> You quoted Voltaire's comments about doctors then reiterated his points about doctors knowing nothing...I dont see how any other logical person can deduce your reasoning? If there were an alternative logical explanation, please let me know.
> ...



QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 22 2009, 05:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808395


> IMO, western medicine doesn't heal you; it doesn't focus on the root of the problem, and it only treats/masks symptoms. Just because symptoms are suppressed, does not mean that you are cured, and it certainly does not mean that you are well. Ignoring the underlying cause of the disease and attacking the symptoms with drugs can lead to side effects that are actually worse than the original disease.
> 
> Are you referring to ALL treatments as "ignoring the underlying cause of the disease" ? Or is there a specific treatment?
> 
> ...



When a patient is truly ill (cancer, for example) what do you suggest him/her do? See a doctor or just pursue natural healing? What is natural healing exactly? Is it a lifestyle change? OR just never taking medications from Medical Doctors? This is not just a question proposed to you, but rather to those who also follow the same belief as you. 

I apologize in advance if my post seemed to be on the offense. It is not, for I just really want to learn because of my family background and also b/c my law school concentration was on Health Law. I am into healthy living and organics, but I still do not know as much about it as some of you here. So, if you can shed some light, I would be very grateful.


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 11 2009, 08:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816432


> Sorry for posting late..I totally forgot about this thread. :brownbag:
> 
> QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 22 2009, 01:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808391





> You took the quote literally. It was not meant as an attack on doctors. The deeper meaning of that quote is that the complexity of the human body, mind and spirit, and the miracle of life and healing, can never be truly understood through a microscope. Einstein knew that well.
> 
> I took your quote literally because when people use quotations or references to other articles and incorporate that into their own writings, they are either: 1) trying to bolster their own points or 2) using the outside reference to make a new point.
> You quoted Voltaire's comments about doctors then reiterated his points about doctors knowing nothing...I dont see how any other logical person can deduce your reasoning? If there were an alternative logical explanation, please let me know.
> ...



QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 22 2009, 05:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808395


> IMO, western medicine doesn't heal you; it doesn't focus on the root of the problem, and it only treats/masks symptoms. Just because symptoms are suppressed, does not mean that you are cured, and it certainly does not mean that you are well. Ignoring the underlying cause of the disease and attacking the symptoms with drugs can lead to side effects that are actually worse than the original disease.
> 
> 
> Are you referring to ALL treatments as "ignoring the underlying cause of the disease" ?
> ...


*I'd be interested in hearing what she has to say, as well.*

When a patient is truly ill (cancer, for example) what do you suggest him/her do? See a doctor or just pursue natural healing? What is natural healing exactly? Is it a lifestyle change? OR just never taking medications from Medical Doctors? This is not just a question proposed to you, but rather to those who also follow the same belief as you. 

*I believe that cancers, along with other diseases, are the result of candida overgrowth in the body. Here is an older thread that discussed this topic: Candida and its link to cancer 

I'm not sure if you've already read it. As for treatment, provide your body with what nourishes it, and take out the toxins that destroy it. Also, I would definitely look into vitamin C treatments and/or hydrogen peroxide treatments.

I think the definition of natural healing is subjective. I'm certain it will differ from person to person, but I view it as giving your body what it needs (real, whole, unadulterated foods) and eliminating toxins (processed junk, sugar, chemicals, vaccines, drugs, antibiotics, alcohol, additives, preservatives, etc.).*

I apologize in advance if my post seemed to be on the offense. It is not, for I just really want to learn because of my family background and also b/c my law school concentration was on Health Law. I am into healthy living and organics, but I still do not know as much about it as some of you here. So, if you can shed some light, I would be very grateful. 

*There's really no need to apologize. I wasn't offended at all by your post. In fact, I actually like reading what others have to say about medicine, whether it's from a traditional western point of view or a more natural point of view, or one that advocates the use of both.*
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 11 2009, 11:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816432


> Sorry for posting late..I totally forgot about this thread. :brownbag:
> 
> QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Jul 22 2009, 01:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808391





> You took the quote literally. It was not meant as an attack on doctors. The deeper meaning of that quote is that the complexity of the human body, mind and spirit, and the miracle of life and healing, can never be truly understood through a microscope. Einstein knew that well.
> 
> I took your quote literally because when people use quotations or references to other articles and incorporate that into their own writings, they are either: 1) trying to bolster their own points or 2) using the outside reference to make a new point.
> You quoted Voltaire's comments about doctors then reiterated his points about doctors knowing nothing...I dont see how any other logical person can deduce your reasoning? If there were an alternative logical explanation, please let me know.
> ...



QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Jul 22 2009, 05:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=808395


> IMO, western medicine doesn't heal you; it doesn't focus on the root of the problem, and it only treats/masks symptoms. Just because symptoms are suppressed, does not mean that you are cured, and it certainly does not mean that you are well. Ignoring the underlying cause of the disease and attacking the symptoms with drugs can lead to side effects that are actually worse than the original disease.
> 
> Are you referring to ALL treatments as "ignoring the underlying cause of the disease" ? Or is there a specific treatment?
> 
> ...



When a patient is truly ill (cancer, for example) what do you suggest him/her do? See a doctor or just pursue natural healing? What is natural healing exactly? Is it a lifestyle change? OR just never taking medications from Medical Doctors? This is not just a question proposed to you, but rather to those who also follow the same belief as you. 

I apologize in advance if my post seemed to be on the offense. It is not, for I just really want to learn because of my family background and also b/c my law school concentration was on Health Law. I am into healthy living and organics, but I still do not know as much about it as some of you here. So, if you can shed some light, I would be very grateful.  
[/B][/QUOTE]


_*When a patient is truly ill (cancer, for example) what do you suggest him/her do? See a doctor or just pursue natural healing? What is natural healing exactly? Is it a lifestyle change? OR just never taking medications from Medical Doctors? This is not just a question proposed to you, but rather to those who also follow the same belief as you.*_


There are many different types of treatments for cancer. There are medical doctors who practice complimentary medicine, who work with traditional oncologists regarding herbal/vitamin supplementation and nutrition/diet. My dear friend has ovarian cancer and she opted for chemo plus alternative treatment using an MD who specializes in treating cancer with nutrition/supplements, and she is doing quite well.

I have another friend who had stage 4 breast cancer and worked with a naturopath doctor, who treated her with homeopathic remedies. She switched her diet to eating only raw food. She is totally healed from the cancer and now teaches people how to switch to a raw food diet.

I have another friend who went to Cancer Treatment Center. There he received traditional and alternative treatment. Unfortunately for him, it was too late.

There are many different ways to treat disease, and there are a lot of scams and charlatans out there in both traditional medicine and alternative medicine who prey on vulnerable sick people. Pharma treats symptoms. If your car kept breaking down and your mechanic kept putting a "band aid fix" on the problem, does that make sense? Doesn't it make better sense to treat the underlying cause of the issue and not the symptoms?

I personally believe that the pharmaceutical industry was built on making money to treat symptoms, and not on curing people. So many sick people blindly believe that synthetic meds will cure them, when most of what happens is masking symptoms. 

Yes, there are many good people who are in the Pharmaceutical industry for research and want to help people. One of my closest friends is a traditional doctor and he is a true healer. When you speak with someone in the pharmaceutical industry (and I know several people, one is is a very well-placed person on the marketing side) they will always say that R and D is the biggest part of their pie until further pressed. Many people in their business truly believe that R and D is the biggest part, either because they don't know better or that is what they want to believe. But what are they R and D'ing? Cures? Why are people still dying from cancer, and why do people still have diabetes in huge numbers? They question should be: Why do people GET these diseases, and what can we do to PREVENT them.

And the cynics in the pharma industry will tell you how medicines are rushed through trial and reviewed favorably when they shouldn't be, (and then they are later recalled) and how the sales end of the business is their "Bread and Butter" no doubt about it. It certainly is true that pharm reps will bring lunch to the doctors and sell their products. That is their job.

I don't have time to list all of the details of these alternative treatments, perhaps you may google them if you are so inclined. Some alternative treatments to cancer, heart disease, and other serious diseases are:

Herbal treatments via tinctures and teas. Essaic tea is one example
Intravenous Vitamin Supplement treatment 
Oxygen Therapy
Ozone Therapy (Which is used in Israel)
Traditional Chinese Medicine
Lymph drainage
Homeopathic medicines
Vitamin B17, (laetrile) which was made illegal in the US, but many people have been cured of cancer from going abroad and using it. 

Specific diets, like
Weston A. Price traditional foods
Raw Food diet
Macrobiotic diet

If you are looking for "official studies" of the effectiveness of these treatments, you will have to dig deep, because most of the information is anecdotal. You see, there aren't billions of dollars available to fund testing like there is in Big Pharma. And if you are looking for people in the alternative medical industry with tons of credentials and lots of initials after their names, yes, you will find some, but please realize that the educational system for doctors, etc. does not teach nor does it encourage alternative treatments and prevention. My friend Tim (MD) has told me repeatedly that he was never taught nutrition or prevention. He asks me questions about it all the time. Someday he wants to learn more, when he has the time or money. Oh yes, he went to the best schools and is a board certified MD. You see, many folks who are advocates of alternative health/treatments are the "renegades" who couldn't or wouldn't function in the world of traditional medicine, but have taken to studying and researching on their own. So they don't have all the impressive credentials, but believe me when I tell you they know much more about the causes of disease and the role that food plays in this. So please don't always expect the traditional evidence for legitimacy that we have been taught to believe. In alternative medicine, they look at the results of a changed lifestyle/diet/supplementation instead. There are healers out there who've never stepped foot inside a medical school, and there are those who have multiple degrees who only know how to write prescriptions and don't give a fig about the patient. 

There are many alternative treatments that people choose to use when they are seriously ill, and/or when they have a cold. My issue with Big Pharma is that they are making zillions of dollars promising all sorts of things, when they don't address the underlying CAUSES of disease. 

I will go further to say that *Big Pharma does not want people to have strong immune systems to fight disease.* Yes that is a cynical statement, but think about it. If people were taught proper nutrition and natural supplementation, exercised properly, etc. so that their immune system was strong enough to prevent most disease, where would BIg Pharma be? In the dustbin for the most part. If you don't believe that, you can research into Codex Alimentarius which is a worldwide standardization of vitamins and supplements. If it goes through, people will have to go to their doctors to get a prescription for Vitamin C. Who is pushing for this? Guess!!

Where is the freedom in that? We are slowly losing our rights to heal our bodies thanks to lobbyists, selfish politicians, and an industry that wants control and money.

I do not mean to offend but I feel strongly about this. I have seen dear friends and family suffer needlessly as a result of the traditional medical industry/pharmaceuticals, and I have seen people who are healed and in robust health due to taking charge of their own bodies. 

Everyone has to make up their own mind about these things. But please, I implore all of you to study BOTH SIDES, objectively and then make your own decisions while we are still free to do so. 

I have personally gone through this entire thing with a good friend, who was diagnosed with ovarian cancer a couple of years ago. I have been down the road with her with traditional treatment and alternative treatment. And I pray that she is someday cured. Right now, she is in remission. But I can tell you this: I respected her decision to finally do chemo, after her failed attempt to stick to an alternative protocol. Did the chemo cause her to be in remission, or is it the other alternative treatment she has been on during her time taking the chemo? Time will tell.

Because I am a strong believer in freedom of choice. I voice my concerns here about the medical/pharma industrial complex because we are discussing this issue. But I will not ridicule anyone who wants to go the traditional route. But I have little patience for people who blindly accept what is reported as fact, without any research on their part, ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.

I hope this post is readable, as I haven't had my coffee yet.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

*LoveSophie*- Thank you, the feeling is mutual.  


*Suzan,* BRAVO to a great post. As usual, your post was thought provoking and it was definitely readable, coffee or not. :biggrin: I choose not to quote the post only b/c it was getting really long and has no bearing on how great I thought it was.

Just a few quick points:

1) Regarding your comment about Pharm pp saying R&D is biggest part of pie until pressed- I dont think that is true, b/c for one, I have never ever pressed my friend into telling me anything. Actually, shes so tough, even if I tried it would just blow up in my face. LOL! I am very interested in this topic but not that interested to talk about it over cocktails! I actually press her for other things..LOL!! J/K!! :HistericalSmiley: My friend is THE global head (except for Asia) so I trust that she knows pretty much the whole story of where their company's money is going..She not only manages but is one of the few decision makers.....there are other reasons why I know R&D is the main focus but I wont write it here b/c I plan on showing her this thread on Sat (LOL!)

2) When you speak of "preventive care" as the key to good health, where does personal responsibility come in? I have written this in prior posts in this thread, that I feel the reason why medical doctors in this country are forced to prescribe medication to patients is because the patients visit doctors only when they are ALREADY sick. Usually people only see doctors when they ALREADY feel the symptoms (fever, pain, coughing, etc). So by that time, the doctors usually have to prescribe medication to cure the person and to treat the symptoms for the patients comfort. How many people you know speak to their family doctors about eating/living well and strategies to improve their lifestyle, _when they are NOT SICK_? OK, you probably know more of those responsible pp than I but I can tell you that I know maybe 3, tops, who do that. lol. 

You write "_the question should be: Why do people GET these diseases, and what can we do to PREVENT them."_ Well, while the answer of WHY may lie in the medical profession, doesnt the answer of HOW [to prevent] lie within the people? Look at the Obesity Epidemic in the United States. Yes, there are genetic reasons for obesity but most of it lies within personal responsibility. I understand other factors (advertising, consumer culture) attribute to obesity but the fundamental responsibility lies within the individual.

It is soo easy to say "we need to prevent illness and not to treat only the symptoms" but it takes *2* to make that happen. 

3) I have absolutely no clue as to the effectiveness of alternative treatments for cancer so I do not dare to comment on any of them. I simply do not know enough to make an educated comment right now..haha..but I will read about them at my leisure and thank you very much for answering my original question and sharing- as always, you are a great source for knowledge! 

4) As for your contention of Pharm not wanting people to have strong immune systems...hehe..I dont know Suzan! It is interesting..but I have never been a fan of conspiracy theories so I will leave that one to you and others to decide. I respectfully bow out in that regard.  

*I have 2 questions:*

1) You write that effectiveness of these alternative treatments are "anecdotal" and that these healers may not have as impressive credentials because they are "renegades" of the traditional medical community. My question is, is there a self governing/regulating body that these "healers/renegades" belong to? Is there a "code of conduct" or "ethics" they must follow? Or is that "anecdotal" as well and healers can do whatever they like? 

2) Do you know what happens when a "healer" commits "malpractice", or simply, makes a mistake/negligent on the treatment? Healers make mistakes too, right? Do you know what recourse the surviving family of the deceased can have against the healer(s)?


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 12 2009, 10:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816846


> *LoveSophie*- Thank you, the feeling is mutual.
> 
> 
> *Suzan,* BRAVO to a great post. As usual, your post was thought provoking and it was definitely readable, coffee or not. :biggrin: I choose not to quote the post only b/c it was getting really long and has no bearing on how great I thought it was.
> ...


I may be able to answer your posts in depth a little later. But quickly, here are my short answers and comments. Please know this, I am a strong libertarian and believe in less regulation and less government. As it so happens, many people who use alternative medicine are the same, and they do not concern themselves with malpractice and such as the traditional medical field does. Most alternative medicine will not kill you and will not even harm you. It either works or it doesn't, but there isn't as much risk involved as there is with traditional medicine. Those who use alternative medical consultants understand this. 

#1 I believe that the free market will and does self regulate when it is allowed to function properly. The patient has freedom of choice. If a town has two doctors or naturopaths, herbalists or whatever, the patient chooses to see the one that has the best reputation, referred by others and has helped them in the past, and of course, has the best, "service," so to speak. We as a society can only regulate "ethics" just so much, because in our present-day world system although we have many codes of conduct/ethical regulations, they systems are faulty at the least and corrupt at best, in spite of codes of conduct. I am a practicing Christian, but I do not believe that we can legislate morality. 

2. I believe that the patient should have a legal recourse to take the medical/health practitioner to court as with any other failed business transaction. But I don't know much about the specific legalities of the matter. I've never heard of an herbalist or naturopath being sued for malpractice.

Regarding personal responsibility, of course that comes into play. However, if a patient goes to a doctor and they are sick with indigestion, for example, shouldn't the doctor know enough about nutrition to probe the patient and advising them on nutrition to prevent the indigestion from happening again, instead of the pat answer "avoid spicy food" which may or may not be the right thing for that individual. Regarding obesity, yes, there are many people out there who should be more responsible, but shouldn't their doctor know enough about nutrition to educate them rather than suggesting the usual Weight Watchers or whatever? If people were educated about nutrition by helpful medical professionals most of the illnesses we see would be gone. The "fault" lies in the vulnerability of the people and the dumbing down of the culture. Why can't well-educated physicians be the real go-to people to help, instead of going along with the 'system' of band aiding problems? 

And regarding R and D, it may be true that it is the biggest slice of the pie, but what are they researching? More ways to mask symptoms?

As far as conspiracy theories, with all due respect, I do not think it is a conspiracy to observe that a corporation wants to stay in business and make money.

I hope that this makes sense and my spelling is ok, I am rushed and out the door.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Aug 12 2009, 12:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816879


> I may be able to answer your posts in depth a little later. But quickly, here are my short answers and comments. Please know this, I am a strong libertarian and believe in less regulation and less government. As it so happens, many people who use alternative medicine are the same, and they do not concern themselves with malpractice and such as the traditional medical field does. Most alternative medicine will not kill you and will not even harm you. It either works or it doesn't, but there isn't as much risk involved as there is with traditional medicine.  Are you sure about this? taking herbs or whatever will not harm anyone? So its OK for any person to take whatever supplement there is and will never be harmed or have any adverse reaction?  Those who use alternative medical consultants understand this.
> 
> #1 I believe that the free market will and does self regulate when it is allowed to function properly. The patient has freedom of choice. If a town has two doctors or naturopaths, herbalists or whatever, the patient chooses to see the one that has the best reputation, referred by others and has helped them in the past, and of course, has the best, "service," so to speak. We as a society can only regulate "ethics" just so much, because in our present-day world system although we have many codes of conduct/ethical regulations, they systems are faulty at the least and corrupt at best, in spite of codes of conduct. I am a practicing Christian, but I do not believe that we can legislate morality. Suzan, please understand that the purpose behind ethical regulations is for public policy concerns. We can not allow those who hold themselves out as "experts" in their respective fields to say whatever they want, have the public rely on these recommendations, without any accountability. * It is not to regulate morality. * It is for justice and public safety. You have not answered my question as to whether These "healers", "herbalists" or "naturopaths" or whatever are bound by any type of rules or code to which the people can hold them accountable.... I am also totally for the patient's right to choose treatments, but that is not my question nor concern. My concern is, will these "healers", "herbalists" or "naturopaths" who assume to position of authority to "treat" these patients also be held liable if they mess up?? I dont know about you but from a public policy stand point, if anyone wants to make a living by "treating" or "healing" pp, they better be liable if they screw up!! Alternative medicine or not, they are still messing w/ pp's lives and health so they cant just walk away unscathed and say "sorry, opps it didnt work out for you."
> 
> ...


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Alice I appreciate where you are coming from and I respect you. We will just have to agree to disagree. I think that you misunderstand me. I am not talking about people who put out a shingle because they decide they are going to be herbalists, etc. I am talking about people who are have degrees in clinical nutrition, and in some cases, were in medical school, are board certified M.D.'s and have chosen to treat their patients alternatively. I personally know one very good M.D. who uses both conventional and alternative medicine and he has not only been ridiculed by his "peers" but has been the target of harassment. BTW, there are schools to study alternative medicine, and people do receive credentials after years of study. Many practicing alternative medical doctors, nutritionists, etc. have received extensive schooling and are certified in their field, belong to associations, and of course have to abide by their association's code of ethics. We're not talking witch doctors here. I am sure that some of these folks carry business insurance and/or malpractice insurance, but since I am not one of them, I can't answer that for sure. All I am saying is of course they are accountable, everyone in business is accountable. 

IMO, one cannot separate justice and public safety from morality. Maybe that is too esoteric a statement for the discussion at hand, and perhaps fodder for another discussion someday. I know this might be an offensive statement to some, but I believe in as little regulation as possible. What will happen is that the charlatans will fall by the wayside, and the excellent caregivers will rise to the top. It happens often in alternative medicine, at least in my own community. Yes, some people might suffer from it, but that is the way of the free market. A nanny government and over regulation breeds corruption and totalitarianism. No thank you.

Of course it is not okay for people to take any kind of supplement they want without any risk at all, and of course not all are safe. But what I am saying is this: Most alternative treatments (which in many cases should be supervised by professionals) are much safer and carry less side effects than the outrageously expensive (but covered by insurance) chemical cocktails that are administered in traditional medicine. Most good alternative practitioners care very much about their patients, and have strong relationships with them and will try different things to help their patients get well. It's hardly ever a case of, "oops that didn't work, sorry, move on." 

There is a philosophy at work here that is quite different from traditional medicine. Alternative medicine practitioners and their patients take a different approach to illness and wellness. The practitioner does not assume the position of authority over the patient. The practitioner is a facilitator, and works alongside the patient to help the body's immune system heal itself. 

I have to disagree that most people know about nutrition. Most people know what they hear on TV or read in a magazine. Most people do not or cannot take the time to study *real* nutrition. And some people have emotional issues that they are dealing with, which can result in poor eating habits. Obesity is nothing but a symptom of poor nutrition, and in many, many cases, emotional trauma- ask any qualified therapist. Yes, there is always personal responsibility, I agree 100%, but there also is the emotional side, which sometimes renders a person quite helpless in taking charge of their life. But they are given a drug like an antidepressant to remove symptoms and never deal with the pain. We must have compassion for those people. If someone is lazy and/or defiant about taking responsibility for themselves, that's another story. But if they had no nanny government or less regulations, at some point, they'd have to police themselves or live in anarchy or die. 

_What if a terminally ill patient relies on the advice of a "healer" to purse alternative natural treatment rather than chemotherapy but the alternative treatment "doesnt work" and due to this reliance, this patient delayed her chemo and now is too late? Often, for life threatening illness, TIME is the biggest enemy. Any delay in proper treatment is the difference between life or death. Are you sure that alternative treatments can cause absolutely no harm?_

But Alice, there are no guarantees in life! What if a person with cancer has the best doctors, gets chemo and dies two weeks later because of the chemo? We all get sick, and we all die. Personal responsibility means you gather information and make a decision. If you decide to pursue a course of treatment and it doesn't work, is it always all the fault of the caregiver? There are no guarantees in medicine, in healing and in life. My religious beliefs lie in a sovereign God who is in charge of when we live and when we die, so my worldview is based on that particular belief, so I am really of no further help in the "who is really in charge of our lives" department. I had to live through losing a child, and there were those who were looking in every corner for someone to blame. Sure, there are many cases of sheer neglect or incompetence, but ultimately there is more at work there. I'm not going down the religion road here, I'm just saying that I believe there are bigger things at work and blaming isn't always the answer. 

Yes I believe that some pharmaceutical corporations and perhaps some of the medical people do dumb people down, because many people I know blindly trust whatever doctors tell them or whatever the drug commercials say, without doing one iota of research themselves. And what I meant by doctors "suggesting Weight Watchers" is that some doctors tend to offer pat stereotypical suggestions without really getting into the individual lifestyle of the person, asking questions, etc. (And yes, doctors have been known to recommend WW) Most alternative docs will do a very detailed study of a person's lifestyle and habits, and then suggest things specifically meant for the individual 

It is very easy to label something "conspiracy theory" these days, especially if someone points out that people are in it for the money, or that there are hidden agendas. But history is full of intrigue and conspiracies, many which have turned out to be fact. 

The sad reality is that there are many ruthless people who really do love money and power above all, and will lie, cheat, steal, and kill to get it. I knew some of them when I worked in international banking on Wall Street in the 1980's. And regarding people who hold "impressive credentials," well, some of the most intelligent, most compassionate, most astute people I have known have held only "credentials of life experience." I am not negating those who do have what is generally accepted as "impressive credentials," but there are other ways for people to gain knowledge, grow as a result of that knowledge, and attain wisdom, and practice compassion. 

Like I said before, I cheerfully agree to disagree on this subject. I am a history buff and a novel writer, not a medical professional, and I have not studied the law like you, so I am not equipped to present a perfect "case" for my "side." I only know of what I've studied on my own about health and wellness over many years, and what I and others close to me have personally experienced.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Hi Alice,

Just saw this thread revived.

Acupuncturists, chiropractors, naturopaths and even massage therapists are all licensed professionals and are therefore accountable under the law. If someone wants herbs, they can go to a naturopathic doctor certified in herbal medicine. There are very few lawsuits against these kinds of natural healers because the cures, in most cases, are not harmful, as Suzan pointed out. That's why their insurance is so low. There are some herbs that can cause harm when used inappropriately like ephedra - that's why it's good to go to an herbalist. Herbalists are not licensed so if you're concerned about legal recourse, go to a naturopathic doctor who is a certified herbalist.

To answer your question, the medical paradigm treats symptoms not the cause of dis-ease. Generally medicine drives dis-ease further into the body and does not offer true healing and often creates more sickness.

Medicine has its place though. For example, some forms of cancer respond favorably to chemo or radiation. There are some people who cannot stick to a holistic regime, which is generally more time consuming and takes discipline. I prefer the natural route. When I spent 2 months at Optimum Health Institute I met many people who were in remission from cancer and had been cured of many other dis-eases with a raw diet, juicing, colon detoxification and tending to the emotional and spiritual components of the dis-ease. However, there are many paths to healing....as, once again, Suzan pointed out!  

Sunnie
PS Regarding the Volaire quote, people interpret writing (as well as all data) in different ways - some are more left brained, some more right. A social worker or psychologist might intuit or tend to see the deeper meaning in something while you may look through a lense of logic. Neither is right or wrong and both have their place.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Aug 12 2009, 02:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=816925


> Alice I appreciate where you are coming from and I respect you. We will just have to agree to disagree. I think that you misunderstand me. I am not talking about people who put out a shingle because they decide they are going to be herbalists, etc. I am talking about people who are have degrees in clinical nutrition, and in some cases, were in medical school, are board certified M.D.'s and have chosen to treat their patients alternatively. I personally know one very good M.D. who uses both conventional and alternative medicine and he has not only been ridiculed by his "peers" but has been the target of harassment. BTW, there are schools to study alternative medicine, and people do receive credentials after years of study. Many practicing alternative medical doctors, nutritionists, etc. have received extensive schooling and are certified in their field, belong to associations, and of course have to abide by their association's code of ethics. We're not talking witch doctors here. I am sure that some of these folks carry business insurance and/or malpractice insurance, but since I am not one of them, I can't answer that for sure. All I am saying is of course they are accountable, everyone in business is accountable.
> 
> IMO, one cannot separate justice and public safety from morality. Maybe that is too esoteric a statement for the discussion at hand, and perhaps fodder for another discussion someday. I know this might be an offensive statement to some, but I believe in as little regulation as possible. What will happen is that the charlatans will fall by the wayside, and the excellent caregivers will rise to the top. It happens often in alternative medicine, at least in my own community. Yes, some people might suffer from it, but that is the way of the free market. A nanny government and over regulation breeds corruption and totalitarianism. No thank you.
> 
> ...


Suzan, regarding your statement that some of the most intelligent, most compassionate, most astute people you've known have held only 'credentials of life experience' - so beautifully said..... and you happen to be one of them, which I'm sure you'll disagree with because you are humble too  Thank you for your insight and wisdom. I am also sorry to hear about the loss of your child. :grouphug:


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Suzan, thank you for indulging me in this debate and for a well written post. I know I am not an easy person to debate with (lol) so I truly enjoyed our discussions and I am impressed, as usual, with your thought and reasoning process. Not many pp can reason as logically as you, and believe me when I tell you this from experience as the former captain of my moot court team. Some pp can take a few lessons and tips from you!! LOL! * I like intellectual debates but not many pp are quite worthy of such exercise so I consider myself lucky to have found you!! Unlike in other cases, discussions with you are never waste of my time!* I think you are a great writer and quite persuasive, and very classy. From my memory, you have always been a wonderful help to me from recommending organic food for Mia to vacation places in FL...lol. And now, I get to learn more about Alternative Medicine from you, so many thanks again! :thumbsup: 

I dont think we "disagree" per se, because I also believe in the freedom for a patient to choose his own medical treatment. I have always been pro choice in every regard. Alternative medicine has a 5,000 yr tradition in the Chinese culture so actually, I grew up with it, and some of it is probably already in me. LOL. I have seen it work in some and have heard it fail in others over the years. My only concern regarding Western Alternative Medicine is how do we protect the public from being defrauded by charlatans who know nothing except to call themselves "healers" and/ or other pseudonyms? And, as discussed in prior post, the effectiveness of all these treatments are supposedly anecdotal? all of this just seems* really* flimsy to me, thats all. 

You are wrong when you say_ "All I am saying is of course they are accountable, everyone in business is accountable."_ That is simply an INCORRECT statement. Based on our country's tort law, it is VERY difficult to hold herbalists, alternative medical consultants, healers, etc accountable for their practices. That is also why you dont read about these cases often, b/c most of them do not even have a valid cause of action to begin with! I am sorry Suzan, and I do not know how to word it nicer but you are just wrong in this regard. Another legal concept that is pertinent is that NOT all licensed profession is equal nor subjected to the same standards under the law. A licensed nutritionist, acupuncturist, etc are NOT held to the same standard as a medical doctor and will not be subject to the same/similar punishments if they mess up. In laymen terms, these healers CAN get away with murder, where as it is A LOT harder for a MD to under the exact same circumstance. Just b/c a person has a "degree" or "license" does not make him automatically accountable at all. 


When I posed my hypothetical to you Suzan, about if a patient relied on a healer's advice to her detriment, I asked that b/c if it were a medical doctor, not a healer, the victim (and surviving families) would actually HAVE a legal remedy for her injuries. *That is the fundamental difference, and why I think you are missing the point.* Your attitude is _"We all get sick, and we all die. Personal responsibility means you gather information and make a decision. If you decide to pursue a course of treatment and it doesn't work, is it always all the fault of the caregiver? "_ That attitude is probably the same a healer would have, you know, "i tried my best but i cant be held responsible if you still die." 

However, in my hypo, if you are a licensed medical doctor, you WILL be very likely to be held at fault because "tried my best" wont cut it for a medical doctor, their responsibility extends beyond that. This standard is NOT applicable to healers and et al. That, Suzan, is the essence of my point. * Medical doctors and healers are held to very different standards of accountability(even if the injury is the same) but yet they both are mingling w/ pp's health, and making money doing it.* Something doesnt seem right about that. 

I know you do not support govt regulations. I generally agree but when it comes to public health policies, I do think its important to regulate to protect the public and to punish wrongdoers. 
*
To sum up, I agree a person should learn about all options and choose his own treatment. But, one should also know that if you follow a healer's treatment, it will be VERY difficult (and rare) for you (or your family) to have a legal recourse against the healer if he messes up, you suffer injury or even if you die. * Just know what you are getting into. 

Now to the fun stuff...conspiracy theories- lol. I guessed you are a history buff..b/c I am too, in addition to being a political science major. Conspiracy theories are a big thing in my study..haha...heard so many...some better than others of course, ha! To be honest, some are credible, few are true, but most are just better suited for novels and movies. LOL. Thats why I am not a big fan of them...not saying I dont enjoy the_ thought_ of them though! :biggrin: This might be a good idea for a novel, Suzan, if you are ever interested! 

Have a good night


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Just one question *Puppy Lover*, 
Do you think that a person can just simply be wrong? Or is it always some are "left brained" and some are "right brained?" A "yes" or "no" short answer would be fine. 

Thanks.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 13 2009, 01:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=817112


> Just one question *Puppy Lover*,
> Do you think that a person can just simply be wrong? Or is it always some are "left brained" and some are "right brained?" A "yes" or "no" short answer would be fine.
> 
> Thanks.[/B]


Actually, a small percentage of people are whole-brained and equally adept at using both hemispheres.

I sense some hostility from your post...but I could be wrong


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 13 2009, 12:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=817093


> Suzan, thank you for indulging me in this debate and for a well written post. I know I am not an easy person to debate with (lol) so I truly enjoyed our discussions and I am impressed, as usual, with your thought and reasoning process. Not many pp can reason as logically as you, and believe me when I tell you this from experience as the former captain of my moot court team. Some pp can take a few lessons and tips from you!! LOL! * I like intellectual debates but not many pp are quite worthy of such exercise so I consider myself lucky to have found you!! Unlike in other cases, discussions with you are never waste of my time!* I think you are a great writer and quite persuasive, and very classy. From my memory, you have always been a wonderful help to me from recommending organic food for Mia to vacation places in FL...lol. And now, I get to learn more about Alternative Medicine from you, so many thanks again! :thumbsup:
> 
> I dont think we "disagree" per se, because I also believe in the freedom for a patient to choose his own medical treatment. I have always been pro choice in every regard. Alternative medicine has a 5,000 yr tradition in the Chinese culture so actually, I grew up with it, and some of it is probably already in me. LOL. I have seen it work in some and have heard it fail in others over the years. My only concern regarding Western Alternative Medicine is how do we protect the public from being defrauded by charlatans who know nothing except to call themselves "healers" and/ or other pseudonyms? And, as discussed in prior post, the effectiveness of all these treatments are supposedly anecdotal? all of this just seems* really* flimsy to me, thats all.
> 
> ...




Well, I don't know much about legal recourse, so I'll have to leave that to you. What I meant about businesses being accountable is most of them carry some sort of insurance, and at the very least, it's a starting point to recover losses and damages, I suppose, but I don't know enough about the legal end of seeking recovery from damages, etc. Never had to educate myself about that, I suppose. 

I've never heard of malpractice issues in alternative medicine, but that doesn't mean it has never happened. Most of the people that I personally know have been extremely happy with their nutritionists, holistic M.D.'s Naturopaths, etc. But I see your point, of course. 

Yes, there are tons of great ideas from history, current events, and from speculating about the future that I can use for my novels. Right now I am distracted and studying historical European migrations patterns as a result of some surprising info I received from my DNA Ancestry test. Most people would find Ancient European Migration Patterns a total yawn, but it's fun to me, but another time killer! And if only I didn't keep getting sidetracked by one sweet fluffy Maltese who demands my attention, and all of our friends here on Spoiled Maltese, maybe I could finish my novel. :biggrin: 

Cheers!


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Aug 13 2009, 02:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=817114


> QUOTE (godiva goddess @ Aug 13 2009, 01:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=817112





> Just one question *Puppy Lover*,
> Do you think that a person can just simply be wrong? Or is it always some are "left brained" and some are "right brained?" A "yes" or "no" short answer would be fine.
> 
> Thanks.[/B]


Actually, a small percentage of people are whole-brained and equally adept at using both hemispheres.

I sense some hostility from your post...but I could be wrong 
[/B][/QUOTE]

LOL!! :HistericalSmiley: :tumbleweed: Did you not understand the simple question I asked? Its all goood...And yes, you are wrong again, I was not hostile to you nor would ever be hostile in a place like SM; I just call bull when I see it. :thumbsup: Take care and see you on SM. 

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Aug 13 2009, 07:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=817133


> Yes, there are tons of great ideas from history, current events, and from speculating about the future that I can use for my novels. Right now I am distracted and studying historical European migrations patterns as a result of some surprising info I received from my DNA Ancestry test. Most people would find Ancient European Migration Patterns a total yawn, but it's fun to me, but another time killer! *And if only I didn't keep getting sidetracked by one sweet fluffy Maltese who demands my attention, and all of our friends here on Spoiled Maltese, maybe I could finish my novel.* :biggrin:
> 
> Cheers![/B]


Aww..Please give Nikki a hug from me! Cheers, Suzan :drinkup:


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Alice, I was being playful :biggrin: - after all, we're not in a courtroom and it felt like you put me on trial. 
I understand you enjoy debate but I don't. I stated my opinion here and believe what I believe. So I wish you'd please respect that and not call what I say bull... or bully me into saying I was wrong. 


I do think you're going to be a great lawyer though


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

QUOTE (Puppy Lover @ Aug 13 2009, 12:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=817213


> Alice, I was being playful :biggrin: - after all, we're not in a courtroom and it felt like you put me on trial.
> I understand you enjoy debate but I don't. I stated my opinion here and believe what I believe. So I wish you'd please respect that and not call what I say bull... or bully me into saying I was wrong.
> 
> 
> I do think you're going to be a great lawyer though [/B]


*Puppy Lover,* This thread is about alternative medicine, not you. I asked a really simple question in response to _your_ post, which _you _don't want to/cant answer. How is that being bullied? LOL!!..You need to stop making it personal when it isn't, and don't be so sensitive, please. Do you always feel that way when someone asks you a question you want to evade or cant answer? In intellectual discussions, there is no shame in admitting mistakes. I make mistakes *all the time* and I will be the first to admit it too. I am grateful when people teach me so I know not to repeat the same mistake the next time. I don't pretend to be right all the time b/c I am not (as proven in this thread) and I will never learn anything if I do. It does however, become really lame, when people don't own up to their own mistakes, because then it becomes a big waste of time, in which case, I call bull. If you cant handle that concept then maybe the intellectual discourse is not for you. 

Thank you for making me laugh this morning, but to be honest, I am done with you. This is about alternative medicine, not you. :back2topic: 

Best, and Take care.


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## ckim111 (Dec 17, 2008)

I am always right. That is all :rockon: :rockon:


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

QUOTE (ckim111 @ Aug 13 2009, 08:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=817359


> I am always right. That is all :rockon: :rockon:[/B]


LOL!!!!! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: I am gonna karate chop you and then tell on you to Sophia. LOL. :smtease:


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

Suzan, once again, thank you for sharing your insight and knowledge with us. I really do appreciate it, and I thoroughly enjoy reading what you have to say, because I agree with most, if not all, of it. :biggrin: 

All of this (healing naturally) is still relatively new to me, but I have to say that I'm totally intrigued by it. I love researching and learning, especially when it comes to health, as I love my body and I only want what's best for it (don't we all?). I still have a lot to research and so, so much to learn about alternative medicine, but the thought of that excites me. :biggrin: 

My "godfather" is a retired MD (internal medicine), and like your friend, he admitted that he didn't receive much education in nutrition in medical school. I recall reading that only a small percentage of med students learn about nutrition in school. Since I eat a lot of foods rich in saturated fat and cholesterol, he tends to freak out, which in turn, freaks my parents out, LOL. But then again, I think most would after seeing the diet I consume.


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