# Question - Buying Fluffs Overseas



## Lacie's Mom

First I want to say that I'm not starting this thread to have any controversy and that I legitimately have questions on this topic, so please let's try to stay positivie. I'm in no way trying to critisize any of our SM members.

I've noticed that several of our members have recently purchased fluffs from overseas -- mostly from Korea, and I'm just curious why/how you made the decision to purchase from a breeder outside of the U.S.

When I was breeding Lhasas, I did sell some overseas to Europe, South America and Asia, but to other breeders that wanted to add my bloodlines into their breeding programs. I'm proud that if you look at many of the international Lhasa lines, you will see LynnLaine Lhasas in their pedigree.

But with that being said, I was never comfortable shipping a puppy overseas and always worried about their safety, especially since I knew that they would be in the air for many, many, many hours in a crate in cargo. My heart was in my throat each time I shipped until I was notified that the little one had reached his/her destination and was OK. But I was willing to sell overseas in an effort to better the breed.

So I'm wondering why someone would consider purchasing a pet from overseas and having him/her shipped to the U.S. If you wouldn't mind sharing, I would be extremely grateful. And also, how did you go about contacting the foreign breeders. Do most of them speak English? I would love to learn more about your experiences.


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## michellerobison

Any question that like this would be deemed sincere,so please ,always feel free to ask,we don't learn if we don't ask. This is a world wide community so US breeders wouldn't have the lock on selling. 
It's big world,much diversity,so it's expected to buy world wide too.
Can't wait to read resposonses,we all learn this way.


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## Purple-peep

I really like the look of the Korean malts. Last year, when we were looking at getting our first, I was too chicken to go for one. I also assumed that prices would be very high. I was wrong.B)

This time around, after talking with so many breeders here in the USA, none had what we were looking for. Also, many breeders never got back to me. One breeder even presured me for a deposit on a very young puppy. Talk about a turn off!:w00t:

Since so many peeps here have had great experiences getting a fluff from Korea, I decided to take the plunge.

My breeder has been wonderful and easy to understand. She gets back to me in a timely manor, even with the time change. She's answered all of my questions and is very sweet too. Since her husband is a vet, I feel comfortable that our baby will be healthy and well looked after.

I can't wait until she gets here! Since she's tiny, she's staying with the breeder an extra month.:mellow:


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## Lacie's Mom

I'm in love with your new babies picture. She's a real cutie. 

When you contacted the breeder, did you call her or email her to begin with? It sounds like you've talked her since, but to begin with?

Also, how much is the shipping from Korea (approximately)? 

What kind of health certificate does she have to have to come into the U.S.? I remember having to go to the FDA to get paperwork to ship the Lhasas overseas. The paperwork varied depending on destination country.

I'm sure I have a million other questions, so don't be shy about providing info, please.


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## LJSquishy

I do not have a Maltese from overseas, but next time around I would consider one (although it would be 12-14 years from now I hope!). Because I have never spoken with any breeder other than ones in the U.S., I can only comment that the reason I personally am interested in overseas breeders is the "look" their Maltese have. It's different than most Maltese in the U.S. I think.

My worries are the same as yours as far as traveling with a puppy (even an older puppy) such a long distance, but I also have not looked into how long a flight would be. I am a believer that shipping via airplane is much safer and less traumatizing than a long car ride (4+ hours) but that is just a personal opinion.

I don't even know what the average price range with shipping is for a Maltese from overseas, but I would love to know just out of curiosity if any one feels comfortable enough to say.


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## Purple-peep

Shipping will be 400. 

Looks like us pet owners aren't the only ones that like the Korean malts too LOL!

:: aria maltese ::


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## CrystalAndZoe

To me, it was important to find a breeder who fell in what I call my 'accepted ethical breeding practices'. For me personally, that meant they only had the number of dogs in their breeding program that they could give the proper time and attention to, (not just their puppies) which also means they may only have a few litters a year. They of course show, breed for not only the breed standard in conformation, but temperament and health as well. They sell with proper contracts for both pet owners and those who want to show, even if they are not in the U.S. I also want to know when they retire their sires and dams and what they do with them once they retire. And I can go to their home and see their set up personally or have a trusted friend who is able to do that. You all might be surprised how some of these breeders who are really looked up to keep their dogs in their breeding program. I understand that when you are breeding to better the breed, you will need to get more dogs into your program then are the typical number you would see in a pet home and they won't get the same type of time and attention we lavish on our babies. But I do want to make sure the sires and dams get love and attention and play time and exercise time. These are after all, living and loving creatures who are bred to be companions and thrive on attention and don't do so well without it.

This is my concern with getting a Maltese from another country. Can you go to their home and see their set up? Has anyone been to either of these breeders homes that are becoming so popular? I would really love it if someone could tell me they have and what the set up is like. It would truly alleviate a huge concern I have. Their set up may be even more wonderful then I can imagine. I don't have any 'inside scoop' that is making me ask this. It is just something that has been a huge concern of mine.

Another huge concern is that at least one of these breeders has been selling to pet owners without a spay/neuter contract which could lead to byb's and greeders getting their hands on these little ones. Someone said that a contract was going to be implemented. Has it?

These are my main concerns with going overseas for a pet puppy.

There are so many wonderful breeders here in the US who have gorgeous faces, like the ones that everyone is raving about with the Korean lines, and are not the ones that everyone talks about so I think are possibly better at returning calls and emails. When looking at the pedigree of these Korean lines, I think you would be surprised how many of them come from right here in the good ole' U.S. of A. When I started my search well over 6 months ago, I expected that it would be at least a year or more before I found my perfect girl. I was shocked when all of the breeders I had contacted got back to me within days and had a baby available. With the current economy, so many of even the breeders who have had super long waiting periods now have babies available. So I'm really sorry but I don't believe it an accurate statement that the breeders here in the US don't get back to you or don't have anything available or the look you want. The look everyone wants was originated here. I fear this look is now being taken to an extreme that no longer falls into the breed standard.


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## Lacie's Mom

Crystal -- I once sold a couple of Lhasas to a very wealthy and very well respected breeder and judge in Thailand. I had a lot of concerns about the kennel set up, etc. I was privileged enough to be invited to visit him in Thailand and was able to see his set up first hand.

If only those of us in the U.S. were priviledged enough to have such a kennel. He had a number of young girls working for him. I know that they came from poor homes in the countryside, but he was giving them a much better life. They were trained to groom the dogs and socialize the dogs and were kind of like "doggie nannies".

The indoor/outdoor runs were marvelous and the kennel was spotless and large. They had a special room set up just for whelping and a Vet Tech that was on the premises round the clock.

Because mostly the wealthier/priviledged people from foreign countries are the ones that get involved with breeding dogs and showing dogs, I believe that most have very marvelous facilities. At least that has been my experience with the ones I have gotten to visit.

But, I also agree that I like to see first hand to make certain that everything is as expected.


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## gypsyqueen

*I thought about it myself*

But with all the pets in the USA I decided against it However I do wonder if the standard is the same. Spay cortracts dont always work they get papers like aca and breed anyway. Finding a show puppy in USA can cost a LOT of money I think thats why some go over seas


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## iheartbisou

I only bought mine from Korea because I live in Asia already. It was 1.5 hour flight for me- to Korea. That is the _only_ reason for me. I didn't want to bring a dog from the US/Europe to Asia on that long flight. Also I flew there myself to pick up Bisou, something I was much more comfortable in doing rather than having her go through customs here by herself.

If I had been living in the US, I would have bought from an American breeder, if I lived in Europe, I would have bought from an European breeder.


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## 08chrissy08

This is a very interesting discussion. I also have wondered about buying overseas. Not so much the reasons, but as to what it takes to do so. I don't plan on doing so myself, I'm happy with having two. I don't want to add another for a very long time. The topic is interesting to me though and I'm interested to see what everyone has to say about it.


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## Maltese&LabMommy

I feel lucky to be able to live overseas, so when I looked into buying Ponyo in Japan, and the bloodline and specific Japanese looks, I found the perfect place and most adorable little Malt I could! I get comments from many other military people who own Malts that were from the US and they always say how they can see a differerance in personality, looks, teeth and coat.
I had a friend that was intrested in me finding a Malt for her and shipping him/her over sea's to the US for her. Sad to say our deal fell threw after her husband dident see a good enough reason to spend the $ on a overseas dog.
Same goes for our Lab that we brought into our lives here. Slightly diffrent look, and even though we got her very young, she responds to Japanese and english commands! If my husband (and the military would ship on airfare on their pay!) would agree w/ getting two more dogs here before we leave, I would do it in a second!!!


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## iheartbisou

PS- I forgot to add with Bisou's lines, 80% are from US lines (a lot of Divine, a lot of Marcris and Pashes too), she does have some Korean linage too (Doresden Dolls, Gelluxy and Sunflower).

For me, I had all her paperwork/health certifications to enter China, ready for me when I went to get her, all of which had been translated into English for me. She rode in cabin with me..and we were home within a few hours. 

My 'dream' breeder has always been Divine and if I lived in the US, I would have waited as long as I needed to, to get a Divine puppy...but I'm pleased that bisou does have a lot of Divine in her.


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## CrystalAndZoe

Maltese&LabMommy said:


> I feel lucky to be able to live overseas, so when I looked into buying Ponyo in Japan, and the bloodline and specific Japanese looks, I found the perfect place and most adorable little Malt I could! I get comments from many other military people who own Malts that were from the US and they always say how they can see a differerance in personality, looks, teeth and coat.
> I had a friend that was intrested in me finding a Malt for her and shipping him/her over sea's to the US for her. Sad to say our deal fell threw after her husband dident see a good enough reason to spend the $ on a overseas dog.
> Same goes for our Lab that we brought into our lives here. Slightly diffrent look, and even though we got her very young, she responds to Japanese and english commands! If my husband (and the military would ship on airfare on their pay!) would agree w/ getting two more dogs here before we leave, I would do it in a second!!!


I'm sorry but I have to ask 2 questions. 

1. Are the Malts that the other military people have or have seen from reputable US show breeders or pet stores, puppy mills, and byb's? There is indeed a HUGE difference in temperament and looks when going with a reputable breeder. 

2. How old was Ponyo when you got her? How old is she now?


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## Nikki's Mom

Lynn, this is just my opinion. Others may disagree, and that's fine. 

I am not opposed to buying a dog overseas because of country loyalty. It goes much deeper. 

I'd have to meet the breeder, see his/her home _before purchasing_, and spend time with the puppy to ensure the dog's personality matched mine. Of course looks are part of it, but IMO, it is personality that counts much more. And if I were adding a second dog to my home, I'd have to ensure that the two dogs got along first. IMO we build relationships with breeders, and it is much easier to do that in person. (I know some people might fly overseas to pick up a dog in person, but still, there are other issues...) 

I would have a hard time considering any show breeder (anywhere) who bred tons of dogs. And I agree with Crystal - my personal preference is to work with smaller breeders who are interested in breeding for temperament and health, rather than breeding tons of dogs for a certain "look." There are many gorgeous Malts that come from smaller, ethical show breeders whose names might not be well-known or often mentioned as much as others. 

I don't choose a puppy based on looks alone. That is a very dangerous idea to me. If I bought a dog from overseas and had it shipped to me, then learned that the dog's personality wasn't a good fit, what would I do? Ship it back? To me, that is simply cruel to the puppy.

There is so much more to a living creature than its appearance. Seems like some folks might be overly hung up on looks...yet forgetting that they have to _live _with the dog for 15 years or so. It might have a perfect look, but it may not be the perfect dog for you.

I also think that it is very stressful to ship a puppy in cargo for such a long period of time. Why take that risk? (I know people do it successfully, but I don't agree with the practice at all.)

With the large number of good US show breeders, plus the amount of Maltese rescues available, I just don't see the point to it. So to answer your question, I would never consider it. JMO.


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## Nikki's Mom

Crystal&Zoe said:


> To me, it was important to find a breeder who fell in what I call my 'accepted ethical breeding practices'. For me personally, that meant they only had the number of dogs in their breeding program that they could give the proper time and attention to, (not just their puppies) which also means they may only have a few litters a year. They of course show, breed for not only the breed standard in conformation, but temperament and health as well. They sell with proper contracts for both pet owners and those who want to show, even if they are not in the U.S. I also want to know when they retire their sires and dams and what they do with them once they retire. And I can go to their home and see their set up personally or have a trusted friend who is able to do that. You all might be surprised how some of these breeders who are really looked up to keep their dogs in their breeding program. I understand that when you are breeding to better the breed, you will need to get more dogs into your program then are the typical number you would see in a pet home and they won't get the same type of time and attention we lavish on our babies. But I do want to make sure the sires and dams get love and attention and play time and exercise time. These are after all, living and loving creatures who are bred to be companions and thrive on attention and don't do so well without it.
> 
> This is my concern with getting a Maltese from another country. Can you go to their home and see their set up? Has anyone been to either of these breeders homes that are becoming so popular? I would really love it if someone could tell me they have and what the set up is like. It would truly alleviate a huge concern I have. Their set up may be even more wonderful then I can imagine. I don't have any 'inside scoop' that is making me ask this. It is just something that has been a huge concern of mine.
> 
> Another huge concern is that at least one of these breeders has been selling to pet owners without a spay/neuter contract which could lead to byb's and greeders getting their hands on these little ones. Someone said that a contract was going to be implemented. Has it?
> 
> These are my main concerns with going overseas for a pet puppy.
> 
> There are so many wonderful breeders here in the US who have gorgeous faces, like the ones that everyone is raving about with the Korean lines, and are not the ones that everyone talks about so I think are possibly better at returning calls and emails. When looking at the pedigree of these Korean lines, I think you would be surprised how many of them come from right here in the good ole' U.S. of A. When I started my search well over 6 months ago, I expected that it would be at least a year or more before I found my perfect girl. I was shocked when all of the breeders I had contacted got back to me within days and had a baby available. With the current economy, so many of even the breeders who have had super long waiting periods now have babies available. So I'm really sorry but I don't believe it an accurate statement that the breeders here in the US don't get back to you or don't have anything available or the look you want. The look everyone wants was originated here. I fear this look is now being taken to an extreme that no longer falls into the breed standard.


:goodpost:


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## The A Team

My opinion. A few years ago Bonnie's dogs were in BIG demand, almost too much I think. The look of a lot of her pups is adorable (in my opinion :blush - and now the Korean look is in high demand. They are absolutely adorable!! And I bet in a year or two there will be another breeder in high demand. Kind of like fashion trends. 

And I hate to admit it, but i wanted that "adorable" pup from Bonnie like some of the others had on our forum had.....(whoops).....did I just admit that :w00t: :brownbag:

but I got one......I am totally head-over-heels in love with my Ava. I love her personaity as much as her looks and I think after she's been spayed maybe she'll put on a tad more weight. Sheer perfection :wub: 

Lucky for me that Bonnie is a good breeder. Her home is immaculate and she's a sweet person. ......there I just made myself feel better :HistericalSmiley:about wanting a cute dog...


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## Nikki's Mom

Please don't misunderstand what I wrote, folks. 

I am not opposed to wanting an attractive dog. I have one myself, lol.  Or a dog from a certain breeder with a certain "look" that is appealing to you.

My point was this: *if looks is the most important thing, and careful consideration of a puppy's personality isn't thoroughly investigated, some folks might be sadly disappointed afterward, and it isn't fair to the dog. That is why meeting a breeder and a puppy before buying is preferable, to avoid such situations.
*


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## The A Team

Nikki's Mom said:


> Please don't misunderstand what I wrote, folks.
> 
> I am not opposed to wanting an attractive dog. I have one myself, lol.  Or a dog from a certain breeder with a certain "look" that is appealing to you.
> 
> My point was this: *if looks is the most important thing, and careful consideration of a puppy's personality isn't thoroughly investigated, some folks might be sadly disappointed afterward, and it isn't fair to the dog. That is why meeting a breeder and a puppy before buying is preferable, to avoid such situations.*


 
I absolutely agree with you, my friend. I think about that sometimes.....about me flying down to Bonnies without even seeing a picture or anything. But we had met before and she knew what i wanted and she knew me...and I trusted her. It worked out great for me, but I'm sure it doesn't always... Personality is HUGE!!! Who wants a pretty dog with "issues". Can you imagine getting a new pup like...Tinker? :new_shocked: :HistericalSmiley:


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## sophie

First let me say I have no experience with purchasing a Malt from a breeder at all - I have one from a broker/byb and one from rescue, but I wonder if a poll was taken of those who have purchased from reputable breeders in their own country how many have actually met the breeder and gone to their homes to see their set up. How many have gone by word of mouth and communicated strictly through e-mail or telephone and have had the pup shipped? 
But, I also must admit that If I am ever able to bring another malt into the family the first breeder on my list would be Divine, not just because of the reputation she has and because I love the looks of her pups, but most definitely because she is within an hour's drive of me.
I've also wondered about the long flight and its affect on those pups who are being shipped. How long is a flight from overseas to CONUS?


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## Purple-peep

(Pat) I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a cutie pie. 

I'll agree too, that I want a cute dog along with good health and nice disposition.

With Libby, I didn't go to the breeders home and see her set up. Libby was flown to me. I wished there was a reputable breeder in my area but their isn't. Any dog would have to be shipped to me, so why not Korea.

I also LOVE the look of Divine's malts but they never got back to me, when I e-mailed them.

I've been mailing Shinyoung for several months now so I feel comfortable with her as a person and a breeder.


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## CrystalAndZoe

I'll be even more bold. I'm seeing this a little like a fashion trend. Like Pat said, at first it was Bonnie's Angels, now the Korean Malts. And people are taking this baby doll face to such an extreme that I'm starting to see some Malts that don't look 'right'. Why not go out and get a 'teacup' Tzu because that is what people are truthfully wanting right now. Certainly not the breed standard.

*Head - Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. *_*The muzzle*_*is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy. The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.* (Taken directly from the AMA Breed Description Page).

If you want to be part of the 'in' crowd, have the best of the best, don't you want one that would be considered the breed standard? That's the whole reason behind going to reputable show breeders. Most pet Maltese are not show quality, but many are due to size, temperament, or that the breeder was lucky enough to have more then enough show potential pups at one time. How much more 'in' can you be then to have a show quality pet?

Once this trendy look passes, will people want to be trading in last year's design for this year's must have.  I know I'm being extremely blunt here and may be causing some hurt feelings. I apologize for this. I never want to directly hurt someone's feelings. And I truly doubt anyone on SM would do that. How could you 'trade in' a living & loving creature after he/she has been part of your family for any length of time? However, this is becoming so alarming that I feel someone needs to truthfully, plainly so there is no misunderstanding, throw a bit of reality into what we here on SM are not simply wanting in a Maltese, but demanding. And what in reality, some people are doing by insisting on a Malt that does not fall within breed standards. They are falling for the old high school peer pressure mentality of having to have the 'in look' of the moment. And then going out of the country when our US reputable, ethical show breeders aren't producing enough of this type simply because it is not the breed standard. And a true reputable & ethical breeder will try to better the breed. The breed standard.

Again, I apologize if I've hurt anyone's feelings. But this has gotten to such an epidemic that I had to speak out. Please know that when evaluating a puppy for your family, the look of the Maltese should and does apply. But so does temperament, personality, health, the breeder and an on going relationship with the breeder. If you live in another part of the world, then it makes sense to purchase a puppy from that part of the world. If you go back to the pictures of the beauties here on SM that perhaps first made your heart skip at the sheer beauty of his/her face, compare that picture with clear eyes to what you are wanting now. Truthfully, some of the pictures of these Korean Malts are now such an extreme of those faces that first sparked this frenzy, that they don't look at all like the face you originally fell in love with.


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## Maltsnme

Purple-peep said:


> I really like the look of the Korean malts. Last year, when we were looking at getting our first, I was too chicken to go for one. I also assumed that prices would be very high. I was wrong.B)
> 
> This time around, after talking with so many breeders here in the USA, none had what we were looking for. Also, many breeders never got back to me. One breeder even presured me for a deposit on a very young puppy. Talk about a turn off!:w00t:
> 
> Since so many peeps here have had great experiences getting a fluff from Korea, I decided to take the plunge.
> 
> My breeder has been wonderful and easy to understand. She gets back to me in a timely manor, even with the time change. She's answered all of my questions and is very sweet too. Since her husband is a vet, I feel comfortable that our baby will be healthy and well looked after.
> 
> I can't wait until she gets here! Since she's tiny, she's staying with the breeder an extra month.:mellow:


Here is the thing about a specific "look". Many times, the breeder breeds for a "look" BUT you must keep in mind, genetics come down 50% from each of the parents and even though they built the look, all of the puppies will not come down WITH that look. 

Recently, I've seen a bitch from "Korean lines" that is so very beautiful but she does not have "the Korean look" that so many are looking for, so proves my point (well not MY point, but the genetic standpoint I'm trying to make ) Also, if you go back on many of those pedigrees... there are US dogs behind them.

So, not playing devil's advocate here, by any means, but I think anyone can put photos of "their best" puppies and dogs on line. There will be some that don't make that photo session, because they don't look like what the breeder is selling, ie: what the public wants.

JMO

Karla~N~Girlz


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## CrystalAndZoe

Lacie's Mom said:


> Crystal -- I once sold a couple of Lhasas to a very wealthy and very well respected breeder and judge in Thailand. I had a lot of concerns about the kennel set up, etc. I was privileged enough to be invited to visit him in Thailand and was able to see his set up first hand.
> 
> If only those of us in the U.S. were priviledged enough to have such a kennel. He had a number of young girls working for him. I know that they came from poor homes in the countryside, but he was giving them a much better life. They were trained to groom the dogs and socialize the dogs and were kind of like "doggie nannies".
> 
> The indoor/outdoor runs were marvelous and the kennel was spotless and large. They had a special room set up just for whelping and a Vet Tech that was on the premises round the clock.
> 
> Because mostly the wealthier/priviledged people from foreign countries are the ones that get involved with breeding dogs and showing dogs, I believe that most have very marvelous facilities. At least that has been my experience with the ones I have gotten to visit.
> 
> But, I also agree that I like to see first hand to make certain that everything is as expected.


Exactly. I'm not saying the Korean breeders do not have an exceptional facility. But has anyone bothered to check? And truthfully, they always seem to have puppies so they have to have a large number of Dams in their breeding program. _*If*_ they have hired help to be a nanny to them, that's great. But when do they retire them? And what happens to them when they retire? These things are important to me because these are living creatures. Maybe these things aren't so important to others. And the lack of contracts is an extreme worry and a HUGE RED flag that would have normally had many former SM'rs jumping on this from the very beginning.



sophie said:


> First let me say I have no experience with purchasing a Malt from a breeder at all - I have one from a broker/byb and one from rescue, but I wonder if a poll was taken of those who have purchased from reputable breeders in their own country how many have actually met the breeder and gone to their homes to see their set up. How many have gone by word of mouth and communicated strictly through e-mail or telephone and have had the pup shipped?
> But, I also must admit that If I am ever able to bring another malt into the family the first breeder on my list would be Divine, not just because of the reputation she has and because I love the looks of her pups, but most definitely because she is within an hour's drive of me.
> I've also wondered about the long flight and its affect on those pups who are being shipped. How long is a flight from overseas to CONUS?


You see, that is why I feel when choosing a breeder, you choose one that you will be able to go and personally meet and see their set up. And if for whatever reason you are unable to, if you have a trusted friend who has met with the breeder and seen their set up is ok. Whether that means you fly to them or drive to them, I think that part of doing proper research also includes seeing their set up. Sending a puppy in cargo is out of the question for myself. I know many reputable breeders do this. But for me personally that would never happen.

If someone os flying to Korea to pick up a baby, then why not take some extra time and drive out to their place and see first hand their set up? Maybe some have. But I've not heard that. Most say they met the breeder at the airport.


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## Orla

I'm not in the states but I did choose to get my malt in another country from the one I live in because here there are very few reputable breeders.

On SM I do see Korean maltese as a trend here. They are adorable and I LOVE their look though. When I first joined it seemed that Angels were the "in" maltese.


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## Maltsnme

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I'll be even more bold. I'm seeing this a little like a fashion trend. Like Pat said, at first it was Bonnie's Angels, now the Korean Malts. And people are taking this baby doll face to such an extreme that I'm starting to see some Malts that don't look 'right'. Why not go out and get a 'teacup' Tzu because that is what people are truthfully wanting right now. Certainly not the breed standard.
> 
> *Head - Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. *_*The muzzle*_*is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy. The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.* (Taken directly from the AMA Breed Description Page).
> 
> If you want to be part of the 'in' crowd, have the best of the best, don't you want one that would be considered the breed standard? That's the whole reason behind going to reputable show breeders. Most pet Maltese are not show quality, but many are due to size, temperament, or that the breeder was lucky enough to have more then enough show potential pups at one time. How much more 'in' can you be then to have a show quality pet?
> 
> Once this trendy look passes, will people want to be trading in last year's design for this year's must have.  I know I'm being extremely blunt here and may be causing some hurt feelings. I apologize for this. I never want to directly hurt someone's feelings. And I truly doubt anyone on SM would do that. How could you 'trade in' a living & loving creature after he/she has been part of your family for any length of time? However, this is becoming so alarming that I feel someone needs to truthfully, plainly so there is no misunderstanding, throw a bit of reality into what we here on SM are not simply wanting in a Maltese, but demanding. And what in reality, some people are doing by insisting on a Malt that does not fall within breed standards. They are falling for the old high school peer pressure mentality of having to have the 'in look' of the moment. And then going out of the country when our US reputable, ethical show breeders aren't producing enough of this type simply because it is not the breed standard. And a true reputable & ethical breeder will try to better the breed. The breed standard.
> 
> Again, I apologize if I've hurt anyone's feelings. But this has gotten to such an epidemic that I had to speak out. Please know that when evaluating a puppy for your family, the look of the Maltese should and does apply. But so does temperament, personality, health, the breeder and an on going relationship with the breeder. If you live in another part of the world, then it makes sense to purchase a puppy from that part of the world. If you go back to the pictures of the beauties here on SM that perhaps first made your heart skip at the sheer beauty of his/her face, compare that picture with clear eyes to what you are wanting now. Truthfully, some of the pictures of these Korean Malts are now such an extreme of those faces that first sparked this frenzy, that they don't look at all like the face you originally fell in love with.


 
Agreed and the point I was trying to make, only not so blunt LOL. During the genetics seminar at the Nationals, Claudia Orlandi made a very good point (among hundreds of others). Nature doesn't like extremes. If a breeder breeds for extremes, eventually one of two things will happen. You will lose your breed type OR your breeding program will revert back to "moderate" because that is nature's way. You cannot stay at a constant. 

So, the long time answer, Crystal is, no, this can't go on because nature won't let it. This look will either end up with miniature shihtzu looking dogs or it will go back to what the standard calls for, a moderate dog. Fortunately, there are still breeders out there, breeding to the standard. TG for that! 

Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## notori

Purple-peep said:


> Shipping will be 400.
> 
> Looks like us pet owners aren't the only ones that like the Korean malts too LOL!
> 
> :: aria maltese ::


 The Malt that Aria has from Sunnydale's, is mostly Divine and Marcris.


----------



## notori

Lacie's Mom said:


> First I want to say that I'm not starting this thread to have any controversy and that I legitimately have questions on this topic, so please let's try to stay positivie. I'm in no way trying to critisize any of our SM members.
> 
> I've noticed that several of our members have recently purchased fluffs from overseas -- mostly from Korea, and I'm just curious why/how you made the decision to purchase from a breeder outside of the U.S.
> 
> When I was breeding Lhasas, I did sell some overseas to Europe, South America and Asia, but to other breeders that wanted to add my bloodlines into their breeding programs. I'm proud that if you look at many of the international Lhasa lines, you will see LynnLaine Lhasas in their pedigree.
> 
> But with that being said, I was never comfortable shipping a puppy overseas and always worried about their safety, especially since I knew that they would be in the air for many, many, many hours in a crate in cargo. My heart was in my throat each time I shipped until I was notified that the little one had reached his/her destination and was OK. But I was willing to sell overseas in an effort to better the breed.
> 
> So I'm wondering why someone would consider purchasing a pet from overseas and having him/her shipped to the U.S. If you wouldn't mind sharing, I would be extremely grateful. And also, how did you go about contacting the foreign breeders. Do most of them speak English? I would love to learn more about your experiences.


Beside the "Look", it is that they are easyer to deal with, without a lot of stiff contracts.


----------



## Maltsnme

Purple-peep said:


> (Pat) I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a cutie pie.
> 
> I'll agree too, that I want a cute dog along with good health and nice disposition.
> 
> With Libby, I didn't go to the breeders home and see her set up. Libby was flown to me. I wished there was a reputable breeder in my area but their isn't. Any dog would have to be shipped to me, so why not Korea.
> 
> I also LOVE the look of Divine's malts but they never got back to me, when I e-mailed them.
> 
> I've been mailing Shinyoung for several months now so I feel comfortable with her as a person and a breeder.


So, your two choices were Divine or Sunnydale? Not critisizing, you are making a choice that YOU are happy with... so your choice not mine, but my point is, there are many other reputable breeders in the US other than Angela Stanberry. If you want a dog from Korea fine, but to imply that it is because breeders in the US didn't want a relationship is not really accurate.


----------



## princessre

I couldn't be more overjoyed with my two babies in terms of LOOKS :wub:and PERSONALITY :wub:, and I got one from the US and the other from Korea. Casanova is the biggest charmer-- no one can resist him when he lays on the charm. And Bijou is the absolute sweetest and happiest dog you will ever meet. I personally love the wide set eyes and shorter muzzle look. It has nothing to do with being a trend follower. Everyone has their own ideas of what makes a beautiful malt, and and everyone should be able to get what they want in a dog. 

To me, it's all about the timing. I would have loved to have gotten another from Bonnie, but she didn't have what I was looking for when I was looking for one (that includes personality AND looks). I looked all over the US, Korea, and even in Europe. Aside from these two, I bought and unfortunately returned a dog from a very well-respected US breeder who told me the dog was "syrupy sweet." Well, to me, he was agile and smart, but not sweet. At least not to me (maybe he just didn't like me-- I'm not faulting the dog). :HistericalSmiley:So yes, personality is HUGELY important to me. I'm a very particular person, and if I am selecting a family member to live, love, and laugh with for the next 15 years....why wouldn't I want them to be sweet, gorgeous, hilarious, loving, and all things good? Cute dogs can be all these things too!!

p.s.: I personally did not feel comfortable shipping a dog from Korea. That is why I went to go pick Bijou up myself. Did I have to spend an extra $1,500 to feel more comfortable? No, but I'm so glad I did. We got some good bonding in before I introduced her to Casanova. She kissed me the whole way home, and that is a long time! :wub:


----------



## Maltsnme

princessre said:


> I couldn't be more overjoyed with my two babies in terms of LOOKS :wub:and PERSONALITY :wub:, and I got one from the US and the other from Korea. Casanova is the biggest charmer-- no one can resist him when he lays on the charm. And Bijou is the absolute sweetest and happiest dog you will ever meet. I personally love the wide set eyes and shorter muzzle look. It has nothing to do with being a trend follower. Everyone has their own ideas of what makes a beautiful malt, and and everyone should be able to get what they want in a dog.
> 
> To me, it's all about the timing. I would have loved to have gotten another from Bonnie, but she didn't have what I was looking for when I was looking for one (that includes personality AND looks). Aside from these two, I bought and unfortunately returned a dog from a very well-respected US breeder who told me the dog was "syrupy sweet." Well, to me, he was agile and smart, but not sweet. At least not to me (maybe he just didn't like me-- I'm not faulting the dog). :HistericalSmiley:So yes, personality is HUGELY important to me. I'm a very particular person, and if I am selecting a family member to live, love, and laugh with for the next 15 years....why wouldn't I want them to be sweet, gorgeous, hilarious, loving, and all things good? Cute dogs can be all these things too!!
> 
> p.s.: I personally did not feel comfortable shipping a dog from Korea. That is why I went to go pick Bijou up myself. Did I have to spend an extra $1,500 to feel more comfortable? No, but I'm so glad I did. We got some good bonding in before I introduced her to Casanova. She kissed me the whole way home, and that is a long time! :wub:


My point is, when the extremes are bred, the breed will change. The wide eyes, short muzzle is not breed standard. Breed standard is "moderate". If all breeders go to this look, we will eventually end up with a totally different breed (Cocker Spaniels/English Cockers make a big point to my statement). Because no one knows what other genes are attached to "wide eyes/flat muzzles"... but it will change the breed. I for one, love the breed as it is. If I wanted that look, I'd get a ShihTzu.

Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## princessre

maltsnme said:


> My point is, when the extremes are bred, the breed will change. The wide eyes, short muzzle is not breed standard. Breed standard is "moderate". If all breeders go to this look, we will eventually end up with a totally different breed (Cocker Spaniels/English Cockers make a big point to my statement). Because no one knows what other genes are attached to "wide eyes/flat muzzles"... but it will change the breed. I for one, love the breed as it is. If I wanted that look, I'd get a ShihTzu.
> 
> Karla~N~Girlz


There have been many champions with wide eyes, shorter muzzle look. Marcris' Risque Business had that look. Casanova's dad Hot Rumour at Kanthav has that look. Surely all those judges did not think they didn't fall within the standard?


----------



## Purple-peep

Oh no, I looked and spoke with tons of breeders over the past few months and nobody had what I was looking for in a Malt. Many have males available. We decided against getting a male, for personal reasons. I looked at sites for hours everyday, checking for updates on puppies:

Divine
Unforgettables
Pashes
Sands
Phlicks
Bonnie's Angels
Diamond
Rhapsody
Cher Chen- she only has a male available
Aria
Tajon


I could go on and on... with my list but you should get the point.

I also am working with a time frame with the weather here. I could not bring a puppy home in the winter or spring. It's much easier to work on potty training during the nice weather. Plus, Libby is still in the puppy stage at 1 year old. I want the two of them to be close in age.


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

Purple-peep said:


> Oh no, I looked and spoke with tons of breeders over the past few months and nobody had what I was looking for in a Malt. Many have males available. We decided against getting a male, for personal reasons. I looked at sites for hours everyday, checking for updates on puppies:
> 
> Divine
> Unforgettables
> Pashes
> Sands
> Phlicks
> Bonnie's Angels
> Diamond
> Rhapsody
> Cher Chen- she only has a male available
> Aria
> 
> 
> I could go on and on... with my list but you should get the point.
> 
> I also am working with a time frame with the weather here. I could not bring a puppy home in the winter or spring. It's much easier to work on potty training during the nice weather. Plus, Libby is still in the puppy stage at 1 year old. I want the two of them to be close in age.


Have you tried Laureal Maltese? Due to new SM rules I can't say certain things but you may want to check her web site. She has BEAUTIFUL Malts.


----------



## Maltsnme

princessre said:


> There have been many champions with wide eyes, shorter muzzle look. Marcris' Risque Business had that look. Casanova's dad Hot Rumour at Kanthav has that look. Surely all those judges did not think they didn't fall within the standard?


To continue with the extreme you will do one of two things. you will get more extreme and lose your breed type or it will go back to moderate, because the genes behind hind this look, is from moderate lines. 

Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## Maltsnme

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Have you tried Laureal Maltese? Due to new SM rules I can't say certain things but you may want to check her web site. She has BEAUTIFUL Malts.


exactly, Crystal. some reputable breeder in the US will have puppies and if they don't have the "look" you are looking for, that statement alone, spells it all out. 


Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## pammy4501

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I'll be even more bold. I'm seeing this a little like a fashion trend. Like Pat said, at first it was Bonnie's Angels, now the Korean Malts. And people are taking this baby doll face to such an extreme that I'm starting to see some Malts that don't look 'right'. Why not go out and get a 'teacup' Tzu because that is what people are truthfully wanting right now. Certainly not the breed standard.
> 
> *Head - Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. *_*The muzzle*_*is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy. The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.* (Taken directly from the AMA Breed Description Page).
> 
> If you want to be part of the 'in' crowd, have the best of the best, don't you want one that would be considered the breed standard? That's the whole reason behind going to reputable show breeders. Most pet Maltese are not show quality, but many are due to size, temperament, or that the breeder was lucky enough to have more then enough show potential pups at one time. How much more 'in' can you be then to have a show quality pet?
> 
> Once this trendy look passes, will people want to be trading in last year's design for this year's must have.  I know I'm being extremely blunt here and may be causing some hurt feelings. I apologize for this. I never want to directly hurt someone's feelings. And I truly doubt anyone on SM would do that. How could you 'trade in' a living & loving creature after he/she has been part of your family for any length of time? However, this is becoming so alarming that I feel someone needs to truthfully, plainly so there is no misunderstanding, throw a bit of reality into what we here on SM are not simply wanting in a Maltese, but demanding. And what in reality, some people are doing by insisting on a Malt that does not fall within breed standards. They are falling for the old high school peer pressure mentality of having to have the 'in look' of the moment. And then going out of the country when our US reputable, ethical show breeders aren't producing enough of this type simply because it is not the breed standard. And a true reputable & ethical breeder will try to better the breed. The breed standard.
> 
> Again, I apologize if I've hurt anyone's feelings. But this has gotten to such an epidemic that I had to speak out. Please know that when evaluating a puppy for your family, the look of the Maltese should and does apply. But so does temperament, personality, health, the breeder and an on going relationship with the breeder. If you live in another part of the world, then it makes sense to purchase a puppy from that part of the world. If you go back to the pictures of the beauties here on SM that perhaps first made your heart skip at the sheer beauty of his/her face, compare that picture with clear eyes to what you are wanting now. Truthfully, some of the pictures of these Korean Malts are now such an extreme of those faces that first sparked this frenzy, that they don't look at all like the face you originally fell in love with.


 :goodpost::goodpost:


----------



## Purple-peep

Laureal does have beautiful malts and I mailed her a few times. I almost got a puppy from her a few months back but I think there was going to be a size difference with Libby. Size was another factor for me. Libby is 4 pounds and I don't want much smaller or bigger.


----------



## LJSquishy

I think the #1 reason why several people are starting to look into Maltese from overseas is because of the beautiful photos they take of their puppies & adults. I used to think their puppies looked so much different than US breeders, but once the new pet owner took a photo of their new puppy, I realized they looked like any other Maltese puppy. They often alter the lighting/hue on the picture (not sure what it's called), to make the puppy look even more white & give it a unique look. It's not a bad thing, I adore their pictures, but I'm just trying to say that I think that is the first reason why people become interested in their puppies to begin with...then they find out more about the breeder, etc.


----------



## Purple-peep

Another factor for me is having a child in the home. Many breeders will not sell to peeps that have little ones around. Same with rescues.

A few more I looked into:

Veranda
Snow Cap
Silkess+ Only has a male available.

I feel really bad like I'm being attacked for my personal decision to buy a puppy from Korea. I've never judged anyone here for their choice in a breeder.


----------



## pammy4501

LJSquishy said:


> I think the #1 reason why several people are starting to look into Maltese from overseas is because of the beautiful photos they take of their puppies & adults. I used to think their puppies looked so much different than US breeders, but once the new pet owner took a photo of their new puppy, I realized they looked like any other Maltese puppy. They often alter the lighting/hue on the picture (not sure what it's called), to make the puppy look even more white & give it a unique look. It's not a bad thing, I adore their pictures, but I'm just trying to say that I think that is the first reason why people become interested in their puppies to begin with...then they find out more about the breeder, etc.


 It's called photoshopping.


----------



## notori

princessre said:


> There have been many champions with wide eyes, shorter muzzle look. Marcris' Risque Business had that look. Casanova's dad Hot Rumour at Kanthav has that look. Surely all those judges did not think they didn't fall within the standard?


I wonder why there is a problem here, we sell oversea's all the time for big bucks! I don't know about any other breeder in Korea other than NaRae at Shinemore, but, and I can say she is a good person and has beautiful dogs. One of her dogs is now showing here with Pat Keen as the handler with another pup soon to come out, both are owned by Mrs.10, they are beautiful! There are an awful lot of dogs bread here with the same look. 
Just my thought's, Char


----------



## Maltsnme

notori said:


> I wonder why there is a problem here, we sell oversea's all the time for big bucks! I don't know about any other breeder in Korea other than NaRae at Shinemore, but, and I can say she is a good person and has beautiful dogs. One of her dogs is now showing here with Pat Keen as the handler with another pup soon to come out, both are owned by Mrs.10, they are beautiful! There are an awful lot of dogs bread here with the same look.
> Just my thought's, Char


 
Because, I would imagine those people are looking for their breeding program to evolve. When done well, with a reputable breeder, it can be a great addition. One problem is, no contract. That can be a huge problem, if both parties don't adhere.

But that is not what we are discussing. The issue here is, people buy for "the look". (and the korean dogs have very similar pedigrees, from the US). So why go overseas? The honest truth is, people get sucked into those beautiful photos...that are photoshopped and not all of their puppies look that way. It is nothing more than "good sales and marketing". It is working quite well and part of the reason, I'm sure, the rules here on SM were changed. And really truly, I'm not really specifically referring to going overseas to buy that bothers me so much.... As you mention, this look can be bought here as well, which makes going overseas, even more mind boggling to me, but whatever. I'm more concerned with the fashion trend of "the look". When breeding for what the public wants, where does the line "breeding for the betterment of the breed" come in. In my mind, it doesn't.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

I don't think that anyone is personally attacking anyone else in this thread. We're just having a discussion, and people have the right to agree or disagree with what we've written. If we keep taking offense at every little disagreement, pretty soon we won't be able to talk about anything at all.


----------



## Purple-peep

notori said:


> I wonder why there is a problem here, we sell oversea's all the time for big bucks! I don't know about any other breeder in Korea other than NaRae at Shinemore, but, and I can say she is a good person and has beautiful dogs. One of her dogs is now showing here with Pat Keen as the handler with another pup soon to come out, both are owned by Mrs.10, they are beautiful! There are an awful lot of dogs bread here with the same look.
> Just my thought's, Char


Thank you Char!

It all boils down to personal choice.

I decided to only have one child. I also decided to have Lap-band weight loss surgery. I get flamed all the time for both.

Bottom line: My little boy gets tons of our time/ affection and is very smart and well adjusted.

I've also got a hot smoking body now, after loosing 125 pounds.LOL

Do I really care what others think, obviously not. Nobody is paying my bills or living my life.


----------



## Maltsnme

Nikki's Mom said:


> I don't think that anyone is personally attacking anyone else in this thread. We're just having a discussion, and people have the right to agree or disagree with what we've written. If we keep taking offense at every little disagreement, pretty soon we won't be able to talk about anything at all.


No, no personal attack at all from me. I'm just pointing out, where the pet people are taking the breed, if everyone decides to start filling orders for this look. (and the bitch that is being shown by Pat, doesn't have the "babydoll, wide eyed, smashed nose look" just for the record. And she is gorgeous!)


Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## Lacie's Mom

Remember at the beginning I said that this post wasn't an attack and it certainly isn't/wasn't about 1 person. I've seen a trend and had questions. 

I really hope that no one takes anything that's said personally. I don't think the posters have/are attacking anyone -- just voicing their opinions. 

Now back to some of my questions about the paperwork and contacting the sellers, etc.


----------



## Maltsnme

maltsnme said:


> No, no personal attack at all from me. I'm just pointing out, where the pet people are taking the breed, if everyone decides to start filling orders for this look. (and the bitch that is being shown by Pat, doesn't have the "babydoll, wide eyed, smashed nose look" just for the record. And she is gorgeous!)
> 
> 
> Karla~N~Girlz


Let me rephrase: "wide-eyed, muzzle shorter" what I'm referring to is the space between the eyes is wider than the length of the muzzle, from nose to stop. (not smashed, didn't like that term I used earlier) 

As far as contracts, there are NO contracts with these purchases? So anyone can purchase one of these puppies and breed it, if they want to? Is that correct?

Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## notori

maltsnme said:


> No, no personal attack at all from me. I'm just pointing out, where the pet people are taking the breed, if everyone decides to start filling orders for this look. (and the bitch that is being shown by Pat, doesn't have the "babydoll, wide eyed, smashed nose look" just for the record. And she is gorgeous!)
> 
> 
> Karla~N~Girlz


Pet people taking the breed?? I just think they want a well adjusted, healthy pup in the price range they can handle. What does it matter where they buy as long as it fill those requirements.
Char


----------



## Nikki's Mom

Purple-peep said:


> Thank you Char!
> 
> It all boils down to personal choice.
> 
> I decided to only have one child. I also decided to have Lap-band weight loss surgery. I get flamed all the time for both.
> 
> Bottom line: My little boy gets tons of our time/ affection and is very smart and well adjusted.
> 
> I've also got a hot smoking body now, after loosing 125 pounds.LOL
> 
> Do I really care what others think, obviously not. Nobody is paying my bills or living my life.


That's right. It is a personal choice and no one's business. But you must care about what others say/think, or you wouldn't have mentioned that you felt you were attacked in this thread. 

I don't think that anyone is attacking you because you are getting a dog from Korea, they are simply voicing their opinions on how _they_ feel about getting a dog from overseas. That's the issue that is being discussed, not whether you are a good or bad person for doing so.

If people "flame" me for my opinions, or the choices I have made, it's not my issue, it is theirs. The current _herd mentality_ is almost scary. If you disagree with someone, you are "offending" them personally. 

I'll tell you what concerns me about the whole current "in look" with Maltese dogs. When something becomes trendy, then everyone tries to emulate it in order to keep up. Five years from now, will there only be a certain Maltese "look" available? Look what happened to the poor bulldogs.


----------



## Maltsnme

notori said:


> Pet people taking the breed?? I just think they want a well adjusted, healthy pup in the price range they can handle. What does it matter where they buy as long as it fill those requirements.
> Char


Because they are dictating how the face looks. They want "cute".


----------



## Maltsnme

Nikki's Mom said:


> That's right. It is a personal choice and no one's business. But you must care about what others say/think, or you wouldn't have mentioned that you felt you were attacked in this thread.
> 
> I don't think that anyone is attacking you because you are getting a dog from Korea, they are simply voicing their opinions on how _they_ feel about getting a dog from overseas. That's the issue that is being discussed, not whether you are a good or bad person for doing so.
> 
> If people "flame" me for my opinions, or the choices I have made, it's not my issue, it is theirs. The current _herd mentality_ is almost scary. If you disagree with someone, you are "offending" them personally.
> 
> I'll tell you what concerns me about the whole current "in look" with Maltese dogs. When something becomes trendy, then everyone tries to emulate it in order to keep up. Five years from now, will there only be a certain Maltese "look" available? Look what happened to the poor bulldogs.


Exactly and goes right along with what I've been saying (if you don't twist my words around)

Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## Maltsnme

Lacie's Mom said:


> Remember at the beginning I said that this post wasn't an attack and it certainly isn't/wasn't about 1 person. I've seen a trend and had questions.
> 
> I really hope that no one takes anything that's said personally. I don't think the posters have/are attacking anyone -- just voicing their opinions.
> 
> Now back to some of my questions about the paperwork and contacting the sellers, etc.


 
So, Lynn.. I'm curious about the contracts also. Does anyone know for sure, what the contracts are? state? 

Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## Nikki's Mom

notori said:


> Pet people taking the breed?? I just think they want a well adjusted, healthy pup in the price range they can handle. What does it matter where they buy as long as it fill those requirements.
> Char


It doesn't matter where they buy. People are free to do what they want. But are most people really buying dogs from Korea solely because they want a healthy pup in their price range? I'd say it's mostly for the look. 

What really matters is whether the buyers desire for a certain look will seriously affect the breed standard in the future.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

Lynn, I'm sorry that I and others took this thread in a different direction. I hope you'll get your specific questions answered. I suppose some of us feel strongly about the subject, whatever our opinion.


----------



## Maltsnme

Nikki's Mom said:


> It doesn't matter where they buy. People are free to do what they want. But are most people really buying dogs from Korea solely because they want a healthy pup in their price range? I'd say it's mostly for the look.
> 
> What really matters is whether the buyers desire for a certain look will seriously affect the breed standard in the future.


again, absolutely agree with you.

Karla~N~Girlz


----------



## MaryH

maltsnme said:


> I'm just pointing out, where the pet people are taking the breed, if everyone decides to start filling orders for this look.


If breeders (I assume that's who you are referring to when you say "everyone") are compromising their own personal goals and standards by breeding just to "fill orders" then I see that as a breeder issue, not an issue created by "pet people". As a breeder, I strive to maintain excellence in the breed and improve upon the traits that I feel need improving in my personal breeding program. I want good health, sound body (knees, shoulders, front, rear, topline and tailset), solid temperament, silky white coat, moderate head and proper balance (harmony) in length of neck, leg and back. If I get what I want ... wow! If it's what someone else wants in a companion and I have a puppy available ... wow for them! If I don't have what a person wants they should look to find what they want and I have no problem with that. I don't expect that everyone should love what I love and I would hope that people looking for a companion would not be disappointed in me personally as a breeder for breeding for what I want rather than what they want.


----------



## Maltsnme

MaryH said:


> If breeders (I assume that's who you are referring to when you say "everyone") are compromising their own personal goals and standards by breeding just to "fill orders" then I see that as a breeder issue, not an issue created by "pet people". As a breeder, I strive to maintain excellence in the breed and improve upon the traits that I feel need improving in my personal breeding program. I want good health, sound body (knees, shoulders, front, rear, topline and tailset), solid temperament, silky white coat, moderate head and proper balance (harmony) in length of neck, leg and back. If I get what I want ... wow! If it's what someone else wants in a companion and I have a puppy available ... wow for them! If I don't have what a person wants they should look to find what they want and I have no problem with that. I don't expect that everyone should love what I love and I would hope that people looking for a companion would not be disappointed in me personally as a breeder for breeding for what I want rather than what they want.


Yes Mary, to me, this is what makes up part of the term "reputable".. to better the breed by adhering to the standard, not what is trendy. I said "IF" everyone. I didn't say "everyone" would. 

Karla


----------



## MaryH

maltsnme said:


> Yes Mary, to me, this is what makes up part of the term "reputable".. to better the breed by adhering to the standard, not what is trendy. I said "IF" everyone. I didn't say "everyone" would.
> 
> Karla


I agree Karla and never said and never intended to imply that any breeder is breeding to supply a look. My point was that if any breeder is breeding to supply a look then I see that as an issue created by that breeder, not an issue created by pet people. I believe that breeders are breeding for what they want and by the same token those who are buying, whether for show/breeding or companionship, are buying what they want. One of the positives in our breed standard is that there is room for interpretation. Breed type has had an ebb and flow throughout the history of the breed and will continue to do so.


----------



## gypsyqueen

*prices*

What is the price range in Korea I know here for a nice dog its very high I assumed it was the same there.


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

Purple-peep said:


> I feel really bad like I'm being attacked for my personal decision to buy a puppy from Korea. I've never judged anyone here for their choice in a breeder.





Nikki's Mom said:


> I don't think that anyone is personally attacking anyone else in this thread. We're just having a discussion, and people have the right to agree or disagree with what we've written. *If we keep taking offense at every little disagreement, pretty soon we won't be able to talk about anything at all.*


Well stated. People need to learn that just because we don't agree on something, it does not mean they are being attacked. And we get this way on being PC too. It's almost to the point that it's down right scary to say anything anymore. lol



Nikki's Mom said:


> It doesn't matter where they buy. People are free to do what they want. But are most people really buying dogs from Korea solely because they want a healthy pup in their price range? I'd say it's mostly for the look.
> 
> What really matters is whether the buyers desire for a certain look will seriously affect the breed standard in the future.


Again well stated. I don't buy into the theory that people are going to Korea for a healthy dog or a better priced dog. They are going there solely for the look.

Suzan, have you ever thought of being a writer? :HistericalSmiley:


----------



## gypsyqueen

*Ive noticed*

a lot of large maltese in the last few years and people breeding for very tiny this is an awful problem too I want my dog within maltese standard and a lot of byb are turning out very large dogs which end up disgarded from there owners. This I feel is a very big problem.


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

princessre said:


> There have been many champions with wide eyes, shorter muzzle look. Marcris' Risque Business had that look. Casanova's dad Hot Rumour at Kanthav has that look. Surely all those judges did not think they didn't fall within the standard?


Actually those Malts are gorgeous and do have the shorter muzzles and wider set eyes, but are not the extreme we are beginning to see. They would fall into how MaryH. put it, "... the positives in our breed standard is that there is room for interpretation".



notori said:


> I wonder why there is a problem here, we sell oversea's all the time for big bucks! I don't know about any other breeder in Korea other than NaRae at Shinemore, but, and I can say she is a good person and has beautiful dogs. One of her dogs is now showing here with Pat Keen as the handler with another pup soon to come out, both are owned by Mrs.10 who has Maltese Archives, they are beautiful! There are an awful lot of dogs bread here with the same look.
> Just my thought's, Char





maltsnme said:


> (and the bitch that is being shown by Pat, doesn't have the "babydoll, wide eyed, smashed nose look" just for the record. And she is gorgeous!)
> 
> 
> Karla~N~Girlz


I noticed that too. Thank you for pointing that out.


----------



## princessre

gypsyqueen said:


> What is the price range in Korea I know here for a nice dog its very high I assumed it was the same there.


I think it's typically $2,500 for a female dog from Korea. 

Although Bijou was $3,500 plus $2,000 for my ticket plus $300 for her "seat, so I spent almost $6,000. I don't usually like to talk about money, but I just want people to know that Korean malts aren't all the same price, just like how I've noticed Chrisman and Diamond sometimes charge higher prices for some pets vs. others.


----------



## princessre

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Actually those Malts are gorgeous and do have the shorter muzzles and wider set eyes, but are not the extreme we are beginning to see. They would fall into how MaryH. put it, "... the positives in our breed standard is that there is room for interpretation".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed that too. Thank you for pointing that out.


Crystal, which baby on SM would you think has a wider set eye and shorter muzzle than Risque or Rumor? I can't think of any.


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## edelweiss

i have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion---thanks to all who have written. I am a registered breeder in Austria---but do not breed. I have had maltese for almost 39 yrs. I have also had rescue dogs/maltese & maltese bischon mix---they were all special in different ways---all loved and we never considered giving any back for any reason! They were family.
I now live in Greece and there are "no" reputable breeders here so after a thorough search on the web, and through contacts of when I lived and got a beautiful bitch in England---I started email contact w/a breeder in Korea. She was willing to ship a puppy to me but preferred to ship it to CA (where my daughter lives). This showed her concern for shipping long distance (I agreed CA. would be better.) I then found that she had shipped a "show" dog to a nearby European country and made contact w/the buyer/owner---we talked at length and she requested my history---which I gladly provided and she consented to sell me one of her "show quality" puppies with a contract. She was willing to send the puppy (in cabin w/a stewardess) or I could collect it in said country---which I did w/my husband. I sent her a deposit--sight unseen and paid the remainder when I got the puppy. She had only the one puppy from the Korean line (2 from other championship lines but they were a bit older). The puppy has a wonderful, relaxed disposition and has been very easy. It is also very cute. My main concern was health since we have buried so many dogs in the last few years. She gave me a health guarantee in writing. She has been faithful to keep up w/me w/advice & I send her photos and videos, although we do not speak the same language---she enlists a translator. She provided my contract in English. She does understand English but doesn't speak it. 
I was pleased also w/the Korean breeder--she was responsive to all my inquiries and was pleased that I could get one of her Shinemore's (Na Rae Lee) offspring w/out the long journey. If I lived in the US I would definitely do business w/her. The other side of this particular Shinemore Korean pedigree is entirely US--including Divine, Marcris, Maltangel. I did not want a maltese w/Eastern European linage as they are much bigger and would be harder for me to travel with back & forth to the US and are not always health---they are also not as healthy!
If anyone has other questions, please PM me and I will try to help. We are overjoyed w/our little guy and look forward to having a little lady join him at some point. 
We have not decided IF we will show him eventhough both sides are champions---I showed one of my bitches in England and hated it. Dog people can get a little crazy!:innocent:
Sandi


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

princessre said:


> Crystal, which baby on SM would you think has a wider set eye and shorter muzzle than Risque or Rumor? I can't think of any.


I don't think it would be right to say since I feel that type of look makes the Malt not look quite...right. And I would not want to offend anyone who has a baby like that who feels they are the most perfect baby in the world.

I will again say the baby doll face has been taken to the extreme where I don't feel people are truly seeing it through clear eyes. Almost like they are so accustomed to the look that they need to keep making it a bit more extreme to be able to see it now. Put up pics next to some of the babies who were the first to show up here on SM who had what was termed 'baby doll faces' and then look at some of the ones on the Korean web site and compare. They have gone from baby doll to extreme baby doll. There are some definite baby doll faces on here that I've heard their mommy say they are not the true baby doll face they had hoped for. In those cases, I would say that the person is becoming so accustomed to the look that they need an extreme to recognize it now. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## MaryH

Lynn, in an attempt to answer the paperwork part of your original question, following is a link to what is required by the U.S. government for importation of a foreign dog. Also, as stated in the U.S. government requirements, the state of entry may have additional requirements. I did a google search for "importing a foreign dog to Massachusetts" and came up with the info immediately.

CDC - Bringing an Animal into U.S.: Dogs - Animal Importation

I do have a girl who was imported from Hungary. Her point of entry was California so I can't tell you if there were any additional state requirements that had to be met. She was 12 weeks old, flew with her littermate and a human in the cabin of the plane, and her paperwork included a "health passport" showing all vaccinations and microchip number. She also came with a veterinarian-signed health certificate, an international export pedigree and proof of registration in the Hungarian Kennel Club. The export pedigree, proof of Hungarian registration and proof of microchip are all required by AKC in order to register a foreign import dog with the AKC. I had no issues with AKC registration. I had to fill out their registration application for a foreign born dog, provide the original Hungarian registration and export pedigree (both of which were returned to me with my AKC registration papers), two pictures (front and side profile) and a check. Registration took a bit longer than usual because the AKC had to contact and receive confirmation back from the Hungarian Kennel Club as to the validity of the Hungarian registration. All in all I think it took 3-4 weeks to get her registered.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Cosy

princessre said:


> There have been many champions with wide eyes, shorter muzzle look. Marcris' Risque Business had that look. Casanova's dad Hot Rumour at Kanthav has that look. Surely all those judges did not think they didn't fall within the standard?


I think it's important to know there have been shorter muzzled/wideset eyes in maltese for dozens of years. They pop up here and there, usually in the smaller sizes. It's just in the lines. I know reputable breeders are not trying to get that look if they want to breed since smaller dogs usually mean c-sections. With the help of the internet and forums we get to see all types of heads on maltese. Some prefer the cutesy look and go looking for that. So what? The supply of them may not be available all the time but they do show up. 
As for Korean malts, I do believe the altered pics have added greatly to their sales. I wonder if they have contracts for pets to be altered and are they honored? I also wonder if they give health guarantees. That would be a huge concern to me if I were to buy overseas since we do not know some of the lines behind the dogs.


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

Lacie's Mom said:


> Remember at the beginning I said that this post wasn't an attack and it certainly isn't/wasn't about 1 person. I've seen a trend and had questions.
> 
> I really hope that no one takes anything that's said personally. I don't think the posters have/are attacking anyone -- just voicing their opinions.
> 
> Now back to some of my questions about the paperwork and contacting the sellers, etc.





maltsnme said:


> Let me rephrase: "wide-eyed, muzzle shorter" what I'm referring to is the space between the eyes is wider than the length of the muzzle, from nose to stop. (not smashed, didn't like that term I used earlier)
> 
> As far as contracts, there are NO contracts with these purchases? So anyone can purchase one of these puppies and breed it, if they want to? Is that correct?
> 
> Karla~N~Girlz





maltsnme said:


> So, Lynn.. I'm curious about the contracts also. Does anyone know for sure, what the contracts are? state?
> 
> Karla~N~Girlz


There was a thread started by a member who wanted to share her experience with Shinemore and mentioned that she sold without a spay/neuter contract. It seems that thread has been deleted so I won't mention her name. But it was discussed in this thread in which Char (Notori) made this statement, "Lee (Narea) is a very trusting person, but, she is not as trusting any more as people have taken advantage.
Char " after I mentioned my concern about there being no spay/neuter contract. I'm hoping that meant she was going to start selling with a contract. But I've yet to hear from any of the people who have recently purchased from her or Sunnydale if such a contract is yet in place.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/103548-can-you-help-me-figure-one-out-please-5.html


----------



## princessre

Of course I would have rather bought from closer than farther. I don't know if the economy in Korea has been better than in the US, but alot of US breeders I spoke to said they cut back alot on breeding in the last couple years due to the economy. So maybe this partly explains why people are having a hard time finding what they are looking for in the US more so than before. 

Yes, my contract with my Korean breeder requires spaying and neutering. The health guarantee is for 1 year. This did surprise me because Bonnie's was two years, and I spoke to Bevway who offered lifetime guarantee against congenital defects.

Do Korean breeders take amazing photos? Yes! Was my transaction with my Korean breeder perfect? No. But I got a phenomenal dog out of it in the end. So I have mixed feelings about it. If I were to do it all over again (thank God I hopefully won't have to), I would again start closer to me and search as far as it takes to find the one that I want again.


----------



## notori

Crystal&Zoe said:


> There was a thread started by a member who wanted to share her experience with Shinemore and mentioned that she sold without a spay/neuter contract. It seems that thread has been deleted so I won't mention her name. But it was discussed in this thread in which Char (Notori) made this statement, "Lee (Narea) is a very trusting person, but, she is not as trusting any more as people have taken advantage.
> Char " after I mentioned my concern about there being no spay/neuter contract. I'm hoping that meant she was going to start selling with a contract. But I've yet to hear from any of the people who have recently purchased from her or Sunnydale if such a contract is yet in place.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/103548-can-you-help-me-figure-one-out-please-5.html


Really! The people I know have a contract with Shinemore.


----------



## mss

Asking this from my inexperience in purchasing purebred dogs (except the late Spunky, who was of puppystore origin)--

Has anyone here been involved in enforcement of a contract? What are the conssequences if the buyer doesn't spay/neuter? Taking the dog back? Money? If you buy from a breeder in another country, wouldn't that complicate matters? Do you need to hire an international attorney? (Not offering my services at all, as I'm not qualified  )

And on the other hand, the health guarantee--isn't the buyer more or less counting on the seller to be truthful and cooperative, rather than having anything they could enforce?


----------



## Lacie's Mom

MaryH said:


> Lynn, in an attempt to answer the paperwork part of your original question, following is a link to what is required by the U.S. government for importation of a foreign dog. Also, as stated in the U.S. government requirements, the state of entry may have additional requirements. I did a google search for "importing a foreign dog to Massachusetts" and came up with the info immediately.
> 
> CDC - Bringing an Animal into U.S.: Dogs - Animal Importation
> 
> I do have a girl who was imported from Hungary. Her point of entry was California so I can't tell you if there were any additional state requirements that had to be met. She was 12 weeks old, flew with her littermate and a human in the cabin of the plane, and her paperwork included a "health passport" showing all vaccinations and microchip number. She also came with a veterinarian-signed health certificate, an international export pedigree and proof of registration in the Hungarian Kennel Club. The export pedigree, proof of Hungarian registration and proof of microchip are all required by AKC in order to register a foreign import dog with the AKC. I had no issues with AKC registration. I had to fill out their registration application for a foreign born dog, provide the original Hungarian registration and export pedigree (both of which were returned to me with my AKC registration papers), two pictures (front and side profile) and a check. Registration took a bit longer than usual because the AKC had to contact and receive confirmation back from the Hungarian Kennel Club as to the validity of the Hungarian registration. All in all I think it took 3-4 weeks to get her registered.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Mary -- thanks for the info. You're talking about Szilvia aren't you? I love her fluffs.

I'm very acustomed to breeders selling abroad and also getting dogs from overseas. It is to better the lines, but I'm just a little surprised at how many pet buyers are now going overseas.

Talking about baby doll heads -- Lacie used to have what was considered a baby doll face, but now, her face is just considered moderate as the baby doll heads have gotten more extreme.

This happens in all breeds from time to time and often doesn't stay "in vogue". An example with Lhasas -- Lhasas cannot be bred true to color. They are even called the "jelly bean dog" due to the various colors that you will get in a litter. For many years Golden Lhasas were the "preferred" color although the standard says that all colors are equal. Most breeders didn't like showing a black because it is so hard to see the facial details -- but the breeders needed to keep blacks in their breeding programs to keep getting good pigment. So they would keep and finish a black from time to time.

For many years, parti colored were frowned upon. Fortunately or unforunately, I had a parti color gene in my line and would get partis in almost every litter. Some were very, very pale gold and white and some where very deep auburn and white and anything in between. When I specialed Gambler, parti colors suddenly became the rage. After I retired him, I saw more parti colors in the ring than I had seen my entire show career. By 3 years later when I was specialing Roulette who was a beautiful light gold (not a parti), there weren't any partis in the ring. Then I bred Gambler and Roulette and I FINALLY got the black and white parti that I had always wanted. After Dice was out being specialed, all of a sudden, several black and white partis showed up in the ring. I had to laugh because all of a sudden it seemed like I was being a "trend setter". Of course, to me this was hilarious becaue YOU CANNOT BREED TRUE TO COLOR in Lhasas. I was showing the dog that I thought had the best confirmation which was never (and never should be) based on the color of the coat when the standard states that all colors are equal. To imagine that because a black and white Lhasa is winning and if I show a b&w Lhasa too means that I will also win is ridiculous. Just my equation of the baby doll head scenario.

So it seems that most of the pet people that are going to Korea for puppies are doing so because of the cute look to the head, and several people believe that this "look" is enhanced by the great photography and photoshop skills of the Koreans. It's a long plane ride for a very little fluff if that's what the rage is all about, imho.


----------



## ariamaltese

Purple-peep said:


> Shipping will be 400.
> 
> Looks like us pet owners aren't the only ones that like the Korean malts too LOL!
> 
> :: aria maltese ::


 
Hi - 

I love my Maxi - bred by SunnyDale's. However, I spent a great deal of time researching and was prepared to fly to S. Korea to meet Shinyoung and her Maltese in person -- in the end that seemed unnecessary and I was correct in that conclusion.

Max is very correct for the U.S. His head is beautiful, but not so short muzzled, that I would consider him "squish/smashed" face, or any other description such as these. Max is in fact a blend of U.S. lines and Japanese lines. In my case I am trading w/ Shinyoung - this is a good situation when you believe and trust the person you are working with. I wanted different lines without restrictive contractual terms and she wants my lines for the same purpose. However, neither of us would be/want or is allowed to sell without spay/neuter - as it should be.

I will be traveling to S. Korea in the fall to return her puppy and I look forward to seeing her Maltese in person, but more importantly forging a stronger and new friendship with a Fancier of Maltese in another country - think of the beneficial learning opportunity 

Beautiful heads are important and very enchanting in our breed. But...to be at all competitive in the U.S. you MUST have good structure and a good temperament and in my opinion these attributes must come first -- pet folks may forgive a bad topline as an example, this would be a very difficult fault to deal w/ in our rings - it can be hidden by expert handling, but the breeder knows and this is why even if it may win, it's not something I would incorporate into be breeding program - 

Interesting topic - Max says "hi" 

Heidi
www.ariamaltese.com


----------



## Lacie's Mom

ariamaltese said:


> Hi -
> 
> I love my Maxi - bred by SunnyDale's. However, I spent a great deal of time researching and was prepared to fly to S. Korea to meet Shinyoung and her Maltese in person -- in the end that seemed unnecessary and I was correct in that conclusion.
> 
> Max is very correct for the U.S. His head is beautiful, but not so short muzzled, that I would consider him "squish/smashed" face, or any other description such as these. Max is in fact a blend of U.S. lines and Japanese lines. In my case I am trading w/ Shinyoung - this is a good situation when you believe and trust the person you are working with. I wanted different lines without restrictive contractual terms and she wants my lines for the same purpose. However, neither of us would be/want or is allowed to sell without spay/neuter - as it should be.
> 
> I will be traveling to S. Korea in the fall to return her puppy and I look forward to seeing her Maltese in person, but more importantly forging a stronger and new friendship with a Fancier of Maltese in another country - think of the beneficial learning opportunity
> 
> Beautiful heads are important and very enchanting in our breed. But...to be at all competitive in the U.S. you MUST have good structure and a good temperament and in my opinion these attributes must come first -- pet folks may forgive a bad topline as an example, this would be a very difficult fault to deal w/ in our rings - it can be hidden by expert handling, but the breeder knows and this is why even if it may win, it's not something I would incorporate into be breeding program -
> 
> Interesting topic - Max says "hi"
> 
> Heidi
> www.ariamaltese.com


Heidi,

I completely agree with what you've written, and I completely understand (as I've previously stated) about breeders that are buying from overseas or exchanging/leasing, etc. for a time for their breeding programs. I've done it many times with the Lhasas and have made so many wonderful friends overseas.

But it hasn't, until recently become a trend for pet buyers to go abroad. I'm not saying that it's wrong -- just surprising to me.

Lynn


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

Hi Heidi! Nice to have you join in on this very interesting topic. I see you do have a little girl available. I bet she's precious.:wub:


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

princessre said:


> Of course I would have rather bought from closer than farther. I don't know if the economy in Korea has been better than in the US, but alot of US breeders I spoke to said they cut back alot on breeding in the last couple years due to the economy. So maybe this partly explains why people are having a hard time finding what they are looking for in the US more so than before.
> 
> Yes, my contract with my Korean breeder requires spaying and neutering. The health guarantee is for 1 year. This did surprise me because Bonnie's was two years, and I spoke to Bevway who offered lifetime guarantee against congenital defects.
> 
> Do Korean breeders take amazing photos? Yes! Was my transaction with my Korean breeder perfect? No. But I got a phenomenal dog out of it in the end. So I have mixed feelings about it. If I were to do it all over again (thank God I hopefully won't have to), I would again start closer to me and search as far as it takes to find the one that I want again.


Oh I meant to comment on this earlier Sophia. Yes you did get a phenomenal dog. Bijou is precious.:wub:


----------



## pammy4501

princessre said:


> Crystal, which baby on SM would you think has a wider set eye and shorter muzzle than Risque or Rumor? I can't think of any.[/qu
> There are a few.


----------



## princessre

pammy4501 said:


> princessre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crystal, which baby on SM would you think has a wider set eye and shorter muzzle than Risque or Rumor? I can't think of any.[/qu
> There are a few.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess my eyes are different than yours. I don't see any that have shorter muzzles or wider set eyes than Risque or Rumor.
Click to expand...


----------



## Cosy

Cosy's muzzle is shorter than Risque's, but I don't understand the point.


----------



## Maltese&LabMommy

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I'm sorry but I have to ask 2 questions.
> 
> 1. Are the Malts that the other military people have or have seen from reputable US show breeders or pet stores, puppy mills, and byb's? There is indeed a HUGE difference in temperament and looks when going with a reputable breeder.
> 
> 2. How old was Ponyo when you got her? How old is she now?


1- Most of the other Malt owners I have met have bought from reputable breeders. One has been from a rescue and of corse a few from byb.

2- Ponyo was 9weeks old when we brought her home. She is now amlost 5 months old!


----------



## MaryH

Lacie's Mom said:


> Mary -- thanks for the info. You're talking about Szilvia aren't you? I love her fluffs.


Yes, Lynn, my Sprite was bred by Szilvi. I've admired everything bred by her that's been shown at our past Specialties. Szilvi breeds the type I like and what I've seen has always been consistent. Sprite has an interesting pedigree, a blend of European and older American lines on her dam's side and a blend of Korean and more current American lines on her sire's side. She is sound, healthy, typey, charming, and adorable. I couldn't be happier.


----------



## moshi melo

We are all entitled to our own opinions and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Believe me, I searched long and hard, and can honestly say, I've probably spoken to the majority of breeders here in the US. Some breeders just didn't have pups at the time or didn't have what I wanted. And truth be told, I only really learned about the term baby doll and extreme baby doll face from SM. In the end, it all boiled down to the look, personality and temperament which I found in Shinemore. I even had a deposit for Bonnie's waitlist at the time, but then I saw a Shiloh's baby pictures and I was in love. Regarding the statement that the pups not looking the same as they did from the breeder photos is inaccurate for me and I do not think the pictures were altered; brightened, maybe...but nothing extreme. If you compare Shiloh's baby pictures, I got what I saw, my regular snap shots may not have captured her as beautifully as NaRae's, but she is the same as she was when I first got her and even as she is now, though of course she's a bit bigger but still the same face proportions. To me she has a baby face, but she does NOT have the "extreme baby doll" or "smooshed-in, Shih Tzu" face and I do not know of any malt on this forum that looks like a Shih Tzu. Sometimes Shiloh's muzzle can look longer and sometimes really short, it all depends on the angle I take the picture or how clean her muzzle hair is at the moment :brownbag::blush:. In fact, the distance between her eyes is equidistant to the length of her muzzle and she does have a muzzle. But more importantly, her temperament is the sweetest, loving and gentlest of demeanor, yet still playful and outgoing when need be and I attribute this to the way NaRae raises her pups. I couldn't be more happier with every aspect about Shiloh, beginning from day 1 and she has been as healthy as a button with no health issues (knock on wood). Would I buy from NaRae again? Definitely. Would I buy from a US breeder? Yes. It all depends on the timing and who has what I am looking for at that time. The bottom line is it is about one's personal preference, we are all different and we don't all have the same tastes, so can we please just leave it at that and agree to disagree.


----------



## lovesophie

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I'll be even more bold. I'm seeing this a little like a fashion trend. Like Pat said, at first it was Bonnie's Angels, now the Korean Malts. And people are taking this baby doll face to such an extreme that I'm starting to see some Malts that don't look 'right'. Why not go out and get a 'teacup' Tzu because that is what people are truthfully wanting right now. Certainly not the breed standard.
> 
> *Head - Of medium length and in proportion to the size of the dog. The skull is slightly rounded on top, the stop moderate. The drop ears are rather low set and heavily feathered with long hair that hangs close to the head. Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. *_*The muzzle*_*is of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy. The nose is black. The teeth meet in an even, edge-to-edge bite, or in a scissors bite.* (Taken directly from the AMA Breed Description Page).
> 
> If you want to be part of the 'in' crowd, have the best of the best, don't you want one that would be considered the breed standard? That's the whole reason behind going to reputable show breeders. Most pet Maltese are not show quality, but many are due to size, temperament, or that the breeder was lucky enough to have more then enough show potential pups at one time. How much more 'in' can you be then to have a show quality pet?
> 
> Once this trendy look passes, will people want to be trading in last year's design for this year's must have.  I know I'm being extremely blunt here and may be causing some hurt feelings. I apologize for this. I never want to directly hurt someone's feelings. And I truly doubt anyone on SM would do that. How could you 'trade in' a living & loving creature after he/she has been part of your family for any length of time? However, this is becoming so alarming that I feel someone needs to truthfully, plainly so there is no misunderstanding, throw a bit of reality into what we here on SM are not simply wanting in a Maltese, but demanding. And what in reality, some people are doing by insisting on a Malt that does not fall within breed standards. They are falling for the old high school peer pressure mentality of having to have the 'in look' of the moment. And then going out of the country when our US reputable, ethical show breeders aren't producing enough of this type simply because it is not the breed standard. And a true reputable & ethical breeder will try to better the breed. The breed standard.
> 
> Again, I apologize if I've hurt anyone's feelings. But this has gotten to such an epidemic that I had to speak out. Please know that when evaluating a puppy for your family, the look of the Maltese should and does apply. But so does temperament, personality, health, the breeder and an on going relationship with the breeder. If you live in another part of the world, then it makes sense to purchase a puppy from that part of the world. If you go back to the pictures of the beauties here on SM that perhaps first made your heart skip at the sheer beauty of his/her face, compare that picture with clear eyes to what you are wanting now. Truthfully, some of the pictures of these Korean Malts are now such an extreme of those faces that first sparked this frenzy, that they don't look at all like the face you originally fell in love with.


I’m curious to know who’s taking this baby-doll head to the extreme, as you say. Is it correct to say that you’re making this statement based on pictures that are on Korean breeders’ websites? If so, how do you know whether or not this is the look these breeders are striving for? As someone mentioned, wider eye-sets and shorter muzzles pop up from time to time, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that these breeders are actually breeding for this look. On that note, does anyone know if the Korean standard reflects our standard? Perhaps the Korean standard calls for a wider eye-set and shorter muzzle than our standard? What may be considered extreme to us may not be so to them.

Also, as others have pointed out, I think the pictures these breeders take and post on their websites depict a shorter muzzle due to enhancing/lightening or whatever you want to call it. However, when the new owner posts a picture that she, herself, actually took of the fluff, the muzzle looks longer (not long, by any means, just longer than in pictures taken by the breeder). Also, if you browse through those breeders’ websites and check out the pictures of the Malts submitted by their owners, you will clearly see that most, if not all, do not have extreme heads, but heads that are similar to certain US breeders’ Malts, in terms of the length of the muzzle. I actually think, in terms of muzzle length, a lot of the fluffs resemble your Jett (judging from the pictures I’ve seen of him). I hope you don’t take that as an insult, because I happen to think Jett has a really pretty baby-doll head. Again, I’m just trying to reiterate the fact that the pictures these breeders take make the muzzle appear shorter than the muzzles actually are. 

Oh, and I’m not really getting this whole “in crowd” analogy you’re making. Are you implying that people want to have a wider eye-set and shorter muzzle in their Malt because they want to “fit” in with the “in crowd”? What happened to personal preference? What’s pleasing to one person’s eyes may not be pleasing to another’s. If I wanted a Malt with a wider eye-set and shorter muzzle, it’s due to my own personal preference-- what appeals to me more; it certainly is not because I’m feeling “pressure” to be part of some “in crowd” or follow some trend.

Also, judging from pictures alone, I think Risque’ Business had a shorter muzzle than the Korean Malts on this forum.

And for what it’s worth, I would NEVER ship a puppy in cargo from Korea to the US. A 10+ hour flight alone in cargo is much too long for a tiny puppy, IMO.


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## The A Team

Ava has a baby doll face and personally - I happen to love her face! But then i love Archie and Abbey's face too. Every person is different looking and so are dogs. 

I think it's great if you can get a dog that you personally think is beautiful. Why on earth would someone pay a whole lot of money to buy a dog that someone else thinks is beautiful? 

So some of us disagree on "looks". So what. Good breeders aren't going to change the standard of the maltese, so I can't think of a reason to even go on about this.

Now let's move on to Yorkies for a minute.....I adopted Tinker, sight unseen for a puppy mill that had been shut down. If I were picking out a yorkie from a breeder I would have chosen one with a shorter wider muzzle. Tink's nose is long and pointy. I don't know the standard for yorkies, but i sure know what i like. There shouldn't even be any discussion on what I like....who cares except me? 

Maybe breeders should keep trying to perfect the breed they're breeding and do the best they can. We pet owners are told to do our research, so it's up to us to find a dog we like. No harm done as far as I can see.

Gosh, if things get too carried away, perhaps there should be two forums, one for the "perfect" specimen's of maltese and one for the rest of us so we can get back to having fun and enjoying our dogs without worries.


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## princessre

Personally I don't think the baby doll face is going to threaten the future of the Maltese breed any more than the occasional long muzzled Maltese is going to. If a breeder is shooting for the moderate head, you will get some short and some long, right? 

I believe when you ARE looking for a wide-set eye and shorter muzzle look, you are going to go for a Korean malt sometimes. Just because most photos from most American breeders let you know for sure that you will not get a baby doll head. But even if you don't 100% trust the photo from a Korean breeder, you think you have a CHANCE of getting a baby doll. 

Shinemore is being mentioned alot in this thread. But I have seen a range of looks from Shinemore from cute to elegant; and from what I've seen, Sunnydales seems to more consistently produce a baby doll face out of the two. That's my personal opinion-- don't shoot me!

I think the next time one of us SM'ers goes to visit Korea, we SHOULD go visit Shinemore or Sunnydales's setup if they will allow us. And then we should share with other SM'ers what we see. I regret that I didn't, but I had to get back to the US quickly because my husband was leaving for the Middle East for business at the time. I did have Korean friends who told me that those two breeders had huge reputations in Korea and were great breeders, which put my mind at ease. 

We can all learn from each other, there is more than one way to do something, and we're not all looking for the same kind of beauty. To me, the biggest danger in looking for a baby doll face is not to the breed, but to yourself (and your spouse) in that you will absolutely drive yourself crazy :HistericalSmiley:because it does not come up very frequently. Most breeders cite problem with the bite as the primary reason for not wanting or being able to achieve the cutie head that some pet people request. The breeders that most of us SM'ers would consider buying from are not ones that would sacrifice head for bite, I don't think.

Lastly, I think there is a cultural factor to be considered. While it may seem totally wild that someone might travel to or buy a dog from the other side of the world, most (NOT all) SM'ers who did so are either of Asian descent or reside in Asia. While it was a pain in my behind to fly 24+ hours, it was not something out of the ordinary for me to travel there. Also, the quest for a baby face is quite well ingrained and documented in all aspects of Asian culture, not just in dogs but in everything. Open any Asian fashion, celeb, music, or anime magazine and you will see that Asian models, actresses, musicians, caricatures, and toys are depicted to be more doll-faced (with huge doe eyes and tiny noses) than in Western culture. So for some, this is not following a 5-year trend or a "status" thing as stated, but actually a rather deeply-rooted cultural preference. This diversity in our community is one of the many things that makes SM special to me! :thumbsup:


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## Nikki's Mom

I think that most of us here simply want a Maltese pet that is cute and has a great personality and good health. We all have our own ideas as to what is cute and what personality matches ours. But I think we want healthy, happy, adorable, attractive Maltese - above everything else.

But there are other issues, and I'm not afraid to be blunt about it. 

There is no denying that some folks want to have a certain "look" in a dog that they perceive to be the "trend of the moment," or the "status look," just like they want to buy a dog from a particular breeder for status reasons. And from my observations of being on this forum for 2+ years, it seems that is becoming more commonplace here, or at least being discussed more often. That is fine with me, that is their personal preference. My only concern with this is for the newbies searching for dogs. That is why we definitely need a LONG list of reputable show breeders somewhere on this site, so that we can point newbies to that list, and have them understand there are many choices. Giving them a link to the AMA list isn't good enough, as not all good breeders are on that list. 

And I must say, if people think that some Malt owners (and breeders) don't look down on other Malt owners for having a dog from a "lesser breeder" or a dog that isn't as small, or as "baby doll," or as "whatever," as theirs, then they are kidding themselves. 

If someone is so bold as to comment that they don't particularly prefer a breeder or the "look" of their dogs...it is perceived as a personal attack, rather than just a personal preference. That is the way of the world, people no longer understand the difference between a disagreement and a personal attack. In my opinion, that is the core reason why people's feelings get hurt here on SM. 

I feel that everyone is entitled to their personal preferences and I don't try to impose mine on others. Wanting a dog from a certain breeder, with a certain look for mostly "status" reasons, or feeling that they got "the best" because they spent a gazillion dollars on a Malt has absolutely nothing to do with me. I really don't care what anyone thinks about my dog's looks or her breeder. I'm extremely content with my choice of breeder and dog, as I am sure most of you are too. Love for our dogs is very evident here. 

However, my concern is deeper. I am concerned that the desire for a certain look might influence the look of available Malt puppies in the future, and also affect the prices. I worry that demand will result in excessive breeding and/or higher prices. I would like to think that most Malt show breeders are carefully breeding for the betterment of the breed, and won't give in to trends, feel they are forced to breed more than they should, or price their puppies too prohibitively high - so that only a few loving pet owners might experience the joy of sharing their home and their life with a precious purebred Maltese.

I also think that perhaps some are perceiving personal attacks on breeders from Korea. I don't think that is true - it just happens that a some folks on this forum have been buying dogs from Korea lately, so that is the country which has been discussed. It could have easily been any country. Breed standards differ around the world, and I would love it if someone could post the Korean Maltese breed standard. 

If the puppy photos on ANY breeders website are enhanced, then that is just one more reason for me to meet a breeder first and see my puppy first in person before agreeing to purchase it. I personally would not have a puppy shipped to me. That's my preference, but that doesn't mean I think you are a horrible person if you choose to have your puppy shipped. It just means that I disagree with you on that point. 

Sorry to ramble on, but some things just have to be said for clarification here, before people get hurt feelings yet again. I apologize yet again to Lynn, for my being responsible for ranting and veering off the original question. But I am glad she asked, as this discussion and its "rambles" needed to happen.


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## Silkmalteselover

MaryH said:


> If breeders (I assume that's who you are referring to when you say "everyone") are compromising their own personal goals and standards by breeding just to "fill orders" then I see that as a breeder issue, not an issue created by "pet people". As a breeder, I strive to maintain excellence in the breed and improve upon the traits that I feel need improving in my personal breeding program. I want good health, sound body (knees, shoulders, front, rear, topline and tailset), solid temperament, silky white coat, moderate head and proper balance (harmony) in length of neck, leg and back. If I get what I want ... wow! If it's what someone else wants in a companion and I have a puppy available ... wow for them! If I don't have what a person wants they should look to find what they want and I have no problem with that. I don't expect that everyone should love what I love and I would hope that people looking for a companion would not be disappointed in me personally as a breeder for breeding for what I want rather than what they want.


 Mary I so apprecaite your post.. I am somewhat new to the show world and have a wonderful mentor in my kennel club president who has been in the show world for 40 plus years. There are crooked lawyers and great lawyers and we have to have them in our society. In the same manner there are many "kinds" of show breeders also. IMO any person looking for a pet for their compainion for 10-15 years has the right to choose however they want to purchase that pet and will have to live with their decision including the ethics of the show breeder that they purchase the dog from. How are the adult dogs taken care of is a concern of mine in the show world.. IF show people are tempted to breed to make sure they can sell pets for big $$$ as more important than the standard, health etc. it spells trouble to me..


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## Nikki's Mom

*Also, the quest for a baby face is quite well ingrained and documented in all aspects of Asian culture, not just in dogs but in everything. Open any Asian fashion, celeb, music, or anime magazine and you will see that Asian models, actresses, musicians, caricatures, and toys are depicted to be more doll-faced (with huge doe eyes and tiny noses) than in Western culture. So for some, this is not following a 5-year trend as stated, but actually a rather deeply-rooted cultural preference. This diversity in our community is one of the many things that makes SM special to me! :thumbsup:
*
Sophia, what you said is so true! I forgot about that. I worked for a Japanese Bank in NYC for a long time, had many Japanese friends. That is a very good point!!


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## princessre

Nikki's Mom said:


> *Also, the quest for a baby face is quite well ingrained and documented in all aspects of Asian culture, not just in dogs but in everything. Open any Asian fashion, celeb, music, or anime magazine and you will see that Asian models, actresses, musicians, caricatures, and toys are depicted to be more doll-faced (with huge doe eyes and tiny noses) than in Western culture. So for some, this is not following a 5-year trend as stated, but actually a rather deeply-rooted cultural preference. This diversity in our community is one of the many things that makes SM special to me! :thumbsup:
> *
> Sophia, what you said is so true! I forgot about that. I worked for a Japanese Bank in NYC for a long time, had many Japanese friends. That is a very good point!!


Suzan, yes!! Generally speaking (and esp amongst the older generation),even Asian men with pale skin, doe eyes, and small nose are preferred over "macho," tan, sweaty, big men! Since I grew up in the USA, boy bands in Asia could just as easily look like girl bands! :HistericalSmiley:


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## Nikki's Mom

princessre said:


> Suzan, yes!! Generally speaking (and esp amongst the older generation),even Asian men with pale skin, doe eyes, and small nose are preferred over "macho," tan, sweaty, big men! Since I grew up in the USA, boy bands in Asia could just as easily look like girl bands! :HistericalSmiley:


My Japanese friends and I discussed that many times. :thumbsup:


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## I found nemo

Nikki's Mom said:


> I think that most of us here simply want a Maltese pet that is cute and has a great personality and good health. We all have our own ideas as to what is cute and what personality matches ours. But I think we want healthy, happy, adorable, attractive Maltese - above everything else.
> 
> But there are other issues, and I'm not afraid to be blunt about it.
> 
> There is no denying that some folks want to have a certain "look" in a dog that they perceive to be the "trend of the moment," or the "status look," just like they want to buy a dog from a particular breeder for status reasons. And from my observations of being on this forum for 2+ years, it seems that is becoming more commonplace here, or at least being discussed more often. That is fine with me, that is their personal preference. My only concern with this is for the newbies searching for dogs. That is why we definitely need a LONG list of reputable show breeders somewhere on this site, so that we can point newbies to that list, and have them understand there are many choices. Giving them a link to the AMA list isn't good enough, as not all good breeders are on that list.
> 
> And I must say, if people think that some Malt owners (and breeders) don't look down on other Malt owners for having a dog from a "lesser breeder" or a dog that isn't as small, or as "baby doll," or as "whatever," as theirs, then they are kidding themselves.
> 
> If someone is so bold as to comment that they don't particularly prefer a breeder or the "look" of their dogs...it is perceived as a personal attack, rather than just a personal preference. That is the way of the world, people no longer understand the difference between a disagreement and a personal attack. In my opinion, that is the core reason why people's feelings get hurt here on SM.
> 
> I feel that everyone is entitled to their personal preferences and I don't try to impose mine on others. Wanting a dog from a certain breeder, with a certain look for mostly "status" reasons, or feeling that they got "the best" because they spent a gazillion dollars on a Malt has absolutely nothing to do with me. I really don't care what anyone thinks about my dog's looks or her breeder. I'm extremely content with my choice of breeder and dog, as I am sure most of you are too. Love for our dogs is very evident here.
> 
> However, my concern is deeper. I am concerned that the desire for a certain look might influence the look of available Malt puppies in the future, and also affect the prices. I worry that demand will result in excessive breeding and/or higher prices. I would like to think that most Malt show breeders are carefully breeding for the betterment of the breed, and won't give in to trends, feel they are forced to breed more than they should, or price their puppies too prohibitively high - so that only a few loving pet owners might experience the joy of sharing their home and their life with a precious purebred Maltese.
> 
> I also think that perhaps some are perceiving personal attacks on breeders from Korea. I don't think that is true - it just happens that a some folks on this forum have been buying dogs from Korea lately, so that is the country which has been discussed. It could have easily been any country. Breed standards differ around the world, and I would love it if someone could post the Korean Maltese breed standard.
> 
> If the puppy photos on ANY breeders website are enhanced, then that is just one more reason for me to meet a breeder first and see my puppy first in person before agreeing to purchase it. I personally would not have a puppy shipped to me. That's my preference, but that doesn't mean I think you are a horrible person if you choose to have your puppy shipped. It just means that I disagree with you on that point.
> 
> Sorry to ramble on, but some things just have to be said for clarification here, before people get hurt feelings yet again. I apologize yet again to Lynn, for my being responsible for ranting and veering off the original question. But I am glad she asked, as this discussion and its "rambles" needed to happen.


:thumbsup: Great post!


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## princessre

Nikki's Mom said:


> And I must say, if people think that some Malt owners (and breeders) don't look down on other Malt owners for having a dog from a "lesser breeder" or a dog that isn't as small, or as "baby doll," or as "whatever," as theirs, then they are kidding themselves.
> 
> If the puppy photos on ANY breeders website are enhanced, then that is just one more reason for me to meet a breeder first and see my puppy first in person before agreeing to purchase it. I personally would not have a puppy shipped to me. That's my preference, but that doesn't mean I think you are a horrible person if you choose to have your puppy shipped. It just means that I disagree with you on that point.


Suzan, I am very sorry that some on SM feel that Malt owners are being "looked down on" because of their breeder or look. Speaking for myself, I don't think that way-- I think Phlick's seems like a great breeder, and Nikki is absolutely beautiful. I find her to be precious, and she sounds like a such a sweet and good girl, too!!

I've had some people make mention of an "Angel club" within SM. I do have a bond with some Angel owners because when I see their baby, it brings up feelings of love because something about their look reminds me of MY baby Casanova. Every time Casanova did something cute, I would ask another Angel owner if their baby did it too. 

I can tell you that I'm probably guilty of commenting more on dogs that I personally think are cute, and that is something I would like to change. Beauty is not everything, and I would also like to see more discussions of funny and cute BEHAVIORS from our babies! Not just when they're freshly groomed, clothed, and looking pretty for a treat. Because God knows, that is not how they are 99% of the time!


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## Nikki's Mom

Sophia,

I don't think that way, either. But it's a reality in most areas of life these days, you know? Lots of politics and nasty stuff in the purebred dog world. I saw it firsthand a couple of times and hear about it sometimes, too.

People who are secure in themselves and have a certain amount of class will make it a point to be gracious to all, both directly and indirectly. Most people on SM are gracious and kind.

People who are content with their choice of breeder and dog (like I am) do not let superficial people's attitudes bother them in the least. 

I'm a dog lover in general, and I don't care where they came from, if they are rescues, or mixed with something else. They are all God's precious creatures. 

As far as an "Angels club," I understand. I think that most similar breed personality traits go beyond a certain line, as is evident when we have the "Does your dog do this?" discussions. 

We have a lot of wonderful, nice, caring people on SM. I pointed out the not-so-nice realities simply to say that those realities exist, as there were posts questioning points made about trends, etc. Perhaps the not-so-nice attitudes whether direct or implied may be a reason why some people don't stick around for too long. 



princessre said:


> Suzan, I am very sorry that some on SM feel that Malt owners are being "looked down on" because of their breeder or look. Speaking for myself, I don't think that way-- I think Phlick's seems like a great breeder, and Nikki is absolutely beautiful. I find her to be precious, and she sounds like a such a sweet and good girl, too!!
> 
> I've had some people make mention of an "Angel club" within SM. I do have a bond with some Angel owners because when I see their baby, it brings up feelings of love because something about their look reminds me of MY baby Casanova. Every time Casanova did something cute, I would ask another Angel owner if their baby did it too.
> 
> I can tell you that I'm probably guilty of commenting more on dogs that I personally think are cute, and that is something I would like to change. Beauty is not everything, and I would also like to see more discussions of funny and cute BEHAVIORS from our babies! Not just when they're freshly groomed, clothed, and looking pretty for a treat. Because God knows, that is not how they are 99% of the time!


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## Silkmalteselover

I can tell you that I'm probably guilty of commenting more on dogs that I personally think are cute, and that is something I would like to change. Beauty is not everything, and I would also like to see more discussions of funny and cute BEHAVIORS from our babies! Not just when they're freshly groomed, clothed, and looking pretty for a treat. Because God knows, that is not how they are 99% of the time![/QUOTE]
I am still in my PJ cause I keep reading this thread... I take care of my cousins's BIG very NOT babydoll faced unneutered male named Max for months at a time and he is such a DOLL to me. At first when I started watching him, in my heart I thought "I hope no one thinks I make that look!" I miss him when he leaves and "repented" of having those thoughts. He is a true Maltese funny looks and all. He barks when I start the garbage disposal or just walk near the sink. Once while preparing for a trip that required showing my groomer friend how to care for my show dogs coat we discovered she was in heat.. Of course she wasn't going to be bred since she was still showing. My husband wasn't going on the trip with me so I gave him instructions about keeping her away from my male champion etc. But (not neutered )Max was staying with us at the time. When I came back home I walked in the home to find my show girl running around in the same room as Max...:w00t: YIKES!! I was sure they must have bred knowing how strong those hormones can be.. and I was very upset for about 24 hours knowing how ?? unattractive these pups could be. The next morning I decided to try an experiment... I put my show girl down with Max.. she did the normal I am ready to be bred, looking for a male dance.. Max approached her and did the normal sniff sniff and looked up at me like he was scared to pieces... and backed away from that floozy!!! I knew then that he didn't do a thing to her while I was gone.... The look on his face was priceless! If I can I will insert the picture of the Slumber Party album in which Max is the beautiful long nosed boy ..


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## Nikki's Mom

I am still in my PJ cause I keep reading this thread... I take care of my cousins's BIG very NOT babydoll faced unneutered male named Max for months at a time and he is such a DOLL to me. At first when I started watching him, in my heart I thought "I hope no one thinks I make that look!" I miss him when he leaves and "repented" of having those thoughts. He is a true Maltese funny looks and all. He barks when I start the garbage disposal or just walk near the sink. Once while preparing for a trip that required showing my groomer friend how to care for my show dogs coat we discovered she was in heat.. Of course she wasn't going to be bred since she was still showing. My husband wasn't going on the trip with me so I gave him instructions about keeping her away from my male champion etc. But (not neutered )Max was staying with us at the time. When I came back home I walked in the home to find my show girl running around in the same room as Max...:w00t: YIKES!! I was sure they must have bred knowing how strong those hormones can be.. and I was very upset for about 24 hours knowing how ?? unattractive these pups could be. The next morning I decided to try an experiment... I put my show girl down with Max.. she did the normal I am ready to be bred, looking for a male dance.. Max approached her and did the normal sniff sniff and looked up at me like he was scared to pieces... and backed away from that floozy!!! I knew then that he didn't do a thing to her while I was gone.... The look on his face was priceless! If I can I will insert the picture of the Slumber Party album in which Max is the beautiful long nosed boy ..[/QUOTE]


Great story!

On the flip side of everything, I had a Bichon that I purchased in a pet store. People thought I was showing her in conformation because she was beautiful when she was young, and strongly resembled the Westminster BIS Bichon from back in the day (Forgot his name) I'd laugh and tell them she was from a pet store/puppymill.


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## jmm

Well....I'm awfully specific about what I want. I don't hesitate to wait a year for the pup to come along....and I don't hesitate to go a distance and ship a pup. Shipping doesn't bother me if the pup is old enough and has the right personality. I would find it difficult to deal with a breeder who did not speak English well if I am being extremely specific about personality traits...be that breeder in the U.S. or not. I have some wonderful friends from all corners of the world, but when it comes to a large sum of money for a dog I have specific goals with, communication must be absolutely clear.


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## CrystalAndZoe

Whew! I'm so glad this is the direction this thread has turned. I don't want to respond to certain posts in a way that could be seen as arguing. That's when threads turn ugly. And so far I've not figured out a way to do that. So I'll just say this, I happen to adore the babydoll face. I have not said or have never said that I don't like the babydoll face. I do find more of the extreme babydoll faces alarming in that they do not look like a Maltese. I will not name anyone's baby because that could be hurtful. I find all the looks of all Maltese adorable. I have 3 now and all 3 have different looks.

I'll use my Jett as an example. He has more of a babydoll face, but not an extreme. His eyes are wider set, but not extreme. He has a shorter muzzle but not as short as others here on SM. People coming into the store honestly think he is a Tzu. And these are Tzu owners. I used to think it was just because they've never seen a Maltese. But now that I have Callie here at the store, she is the one that people rant and rave about. They recognize she is not a Tzu. They may not know her breed, but they know she's not a Tzu. I even had one person tell me that my Jett does not look like any Maltese she'd ever seen, but he was cute in that E.T. ugly/cute way.:w00t: My main concern is that people are becoming so accustomed to this look here on SM, that it seems they are needing a more extreme look to feel they have a babydoll face. And IF breeders are filling this demand...well shame on them. It has been pointed out that the Korean Malts in the ring do not have this extreme babydoll face so that makes me think that there is not that much of a difference in standard for Korea. I don't feel that Risque has an extreme babydoll face. Brit has said her muzzle is shorter than Risque's. So no, imo, we are not seeing the extreme in the ring. Also, I want to point out that different haircuts can emphasize or de-emphasize a babydoll face. I think some babies here on SM look to have little to no muzzle due to how thick or how their muzzle hair is cut. I just want people to keep that in mind when looking at potential puppies. And again, to remember it's the whole package. Personality, temperament, health, and looks. I totally agree that when purchasing a long term member of the family, it is most definitely in your right to get what you want. I just don't like to see people feel pressure to to get their perfect baby in a certain time frame. When it's right, your perfect baby will come to you. There may be a reason why someone is not finding that perfect baby at a certain time.

Thank you Suzan for putting it into much more succinct words as to why I, as well as many others who are too timid to post their thoughts publicly, and breeders who can't post publicly due to politics, are feeling this is cause for concern.

Sophia, thank you so much for bringing it up that many of the SM'rs who are purchasing from Korea are of Asian decent. I've thought that but was afraid if I wrote it, it would not be considered 'PC'. And it makes perfect sense. Also, I truly appreciate that you are in agreement that a visit to these breeders homes is something that should be done. I think many of you would be horrified at how some of these well respected breeders keep their dogs in their breeding program. They may be reputable in the sense that they are showing, have champions, and breed healthy beautiful babies. But just because a breeder may be 'reputable' does not mean they are ethical. And to me, that is just as important as the right baby for my family.


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## Katkoota

princessre said:


> I would also like to see more discussions of funny and cute *BEHAVIORS* from our babies! Not just when they're freshly groomed, clothed, and looking pretty for a treat.


This is for u and for the ones who like to read behaviors' Stories...They say that a picture is worth a 1,000 words  








and I think that the above pic fits what you wanna look at "Not just when they're freshly groomed, clothed, and looking pretty for a treat" Snowy and Crystal model their 'rat-maltese' look :HistericalSmiley: 

I love all maltese... actually, dogs in general:wub: 

What was the first thing that made me fall in love with a maltese? *Snowy's personality.* I saw a picture of a maltese before having Snowy in my life; yet, it didn't make me plan on getting one. 
Snowy came to my life - I didn't choose him or choose the breed. He was a gift from my parents. It taught me something about myself when it comes to dogs: *personality* is what matters to me the most and this boy is FULL of it :HistericalSmiley: 









After getting Snowy, I learned more about the breed and fell in LOVE with it looks and all. I LOVE them all like crazy now awwh love their angelic precious faces :wub: and find this breed to be in my top list of fave breed of dogs  For my next dog, 'personality' is the *first* thing that I will look for - always! 


hugs
Kat


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## roxybaby22

jmm said:


> *Well....I'm awfully specific about what I want. I don't hesitate to wait a year for the pup to come along....and I don't hesitate to go a distance and ship a pup.* Shipping doesn't bother me if the pup is old enough and has the right personality. I would find it difficult to deal with a breeder who did not speak English well if I am being extremely specific about personality traits...be that breeder in the U.S. or not. I have some wonderful friends from all corners of the world, but when it comes to a large sum of money for a dog I have specific goals with, communication must be absolutely clear.


I'm the exact same way. Hee, hee, hee.


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## princessre

TheMalts&Me said:


> This is for u and for the ones who like to read behaviors' Stories...They say that a picture is worth a 1,000 words
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I think that the above pic fits what you wanna look at "Not just when they're freshly groomed, clothed, and looking pretty for a treat" Snowy and Crystal model their 'rat-maltese' look :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> I love all maltese... actually, dogs in general:wub:
> 
> What was the first thing that made me fall in love with a maltese? *Snowy's personality.* I saw a picture of a maltese before having Snowy in my life; yet, it didn't make me plan on getting one.
> Snowy came to my life - I didn't choose him or choose the breed. He was a gift from my parents. It taught me something about myself when it comes to dogs: *personality* is what matters to me the most and this boy is FULL of it :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After getting Snowy, I learned more about the breed and fell in LOVE with it looks and all. I LOVE them all like crazy now awwh love their angelic precious faces :wub: and find this breed to be in my top list of fave breed of dogs  For my next dog, 'personality' is the *first* thing that I will look for - always!
> 
> 
> hugs
> Kat


Kat- Your babies are so darned cute!!!! :wub::wub:Next time I put Casanova in the bathtub, I will be sure to get a picture of him too!!!


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## bonsmom

That photo is fantastic! I hope you have it enlarged, framed and displayed in your home.
What a display of the health and personality of your fluffs!


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## tamizami

i have found this thread VERY informative and enlightening, so thanks to everyone who has posted. i do have a question that no one seems to have addressed: aren't puppy muzzles shorter when they are young and grow a little as the dog ages? this could be one of the reasons that the korean puppy pictures look so "extreme" to some (along with great photography and lighting and enhancing skills)?

like others, i personally love the "cutesy" look, but also the classic look. and right, wrong or indifferent, looks is something that i am specific about when talking with breeders, along with health, temperament, etc. for me, its because i want to have two examples of maltese looks instead of two that are the same "style". its very interesting to see how people respond - some either LOVE stuart's look and others LOVE reina's look, but they typically have a specific preference. it seems like maltese strike some primal cord in us - the big eyes in relationship to the head size, etc. - its very similar to babies and genetically i believe we are designed to respond to that. and i totally agree with sophia's point about asian cultural preferences in looks and that will influence breeders there.

when i was searching for a puppy, i found it very difficult to commit to a dog on the east coast, let alone one out of the country. we are so fortunate to have several excellent breeders in california, so i prefer to work with them. but i can definitely understand someone wanting to "go to the ends of the earth" to find the right puppy and i respect that decision.


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## almitra

I search in the continental US for no other reason than pricing, can not afford the hefty flight cost. Not because I think we produce superior Malts here and anywhere else is poor quality. Not at all. Nor do I have to see a breeder's home, etc, either, though it is a preference, so I do tend to look within driving distance. But if I found what I wanted at the right price far away, I'd definitely do a flight.

I do wonder if the posters who allude to a supposition that some Asian breeders use trick photography or whatever to misreperesent their dogs in pictures possess a "skill" American breeders do not. I mean, one can't really believe that any ethnic group has the market cornered on photography retouching and the like, right? Can't any person retouch or downright fabricate a photograph? The tendency to, er, _enhance_ photographs is likely a personal choice rather than a cultural trait.


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## Cosy

Didn't someone say they had a professional photographer take the pics? I'm not sure just anyone can do what is done to enhance them.


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## Purple-peep

I really like the pictures that the Koreans take. I think they're close-up and clear.

I'm sure they've invested big bucks in great cameras and soft boxes/lighting.

I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore but I wan't to let you all know something. I did do my research, talked with many breeders and looked at lots of puppies over these past few months.

I am not a person who follows the latest trend. Never have been. 
Nor am I impulsive. In fact, I don't buy one thing, unless I've checked out every option available.:thumbsup: It took me forever to buy my last car. I went to all dealerships near and far and searched on the internet. In the end, I got the best value for my money and am very happy with my purchase. That's how I operate in life. 

After stalking Sunnydales site daily for months, Ellie was there, almost like she was meant for me.:innocent:
Looking at her makes my heart skip.:wub: and I'm in LOVE with her.

To me, she has a sweet and soft face right now. I don't know if she'll have a baby doll face as she is still very young. Right now, she's healthy and that's the most important thing to me.

This is such a happy time in my life, to be bringing her into our family.
She will get lots of love here and will have a wonderful home with us. :aktion033:


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## The A Team

Purple-peep said:


> I really like the pictures that the Koreans take. I think they're close-up and clear.
> 
> I'm sure they've invested big bucks in great cameras and soft boxes/lighting.
> 
> I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore but I wan't to let you all know something. I did do my research, talked with many breeders and looked at lots of puppies over these past few months.
> 
> I am not a person who follows the latest trend. Never have been.
> Nor am I impulsive. In fact, I don't buy one thing, unless I've checked out every option available.:thumbsup: It took me forever to buy my last car. I went to all dealerships near and far and searched on the internet. In the end, I got the best value for my money and am very happy with my purchase. That's how I operate in life.
> 
> After stalking Sunnydales site daily for months, Ellie was there, almost like she was meant for me.:innocent:
> Looking at her makes my heart skip.:wub: and I'm in LOVE with her.
> 
> To me, she has a sweet and soft face right now. I don't know if she'll have a baby doll face as she is still very young. Right now, she's healthy and that's the most important thing to me.
> 
> This is such a happy time in my life, to be bringing her into our family.
> She will get lots of love here and will have a wonderful home with us. :aktion033:


Can't wait for you to get her!!!


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## Matilda's mommy

Purple-peep said:


> I really like the pictures that the Koreans take. I think they're close-up and clear.
> 
> I'm sure they've invested big bucks in great cameras and soft boxes/lighting.
> 
> I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore but I wan't to let you all know something. I did do my research, talked with many breeders and looked at lots of puppies over these past few months.
> 
> I am not a person who follows the latest trend. Never have been.
> Nor am I impulsive. In fact, I don't buy one thing, unless I've checked out every option available.:thumbsup: It took me forever to buy my last car. I went to all dealerships near and far and searched on the internet. In the end, I got the best value for my money and am very happy with my purchase. That's how I operate in life.
> 
> After stalking Sunnydales site daily for months, Ellie was there, almost like she was meant for me.:innocent:
> Looking at her makes my heart skip.:wub: and I'm in LOVE with her.
> 
> To me, she has a sweet and soft face right now. I don't know if she'll have a baby doll face as she is still very young. Right now, she's healthy and that's the most important thing to me.
> 
> This is such a happy time in my life, to be bringing her into our family.
> She will get lots of love here and will have a wonderful home with us. :aktion033:


 

That's what it's all about, you found your baby:wub: and she is adorable. Congrats to you. I can't wait to hear all about her. When will she be here?


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## moshi melo

Purple-peep said:


> I really like the pictures that the Koreans take. I think they're close-up and clear.
> 
> I'm sure they've invested big bucks in great cameras and soft boxes/lighting.
> 
> I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore but I wan't to let you all know something. I did do my research, talked with many breeders and looked at lots of puppies over these past few months.
> 
> I am not a person who follows the latest trend. Never have been.
> Nor am I impulsive. In fact, I don't buy one thing, unless I've checked out every option available.:thumbsup: It took me forever to buy my last car. I went to all dealerships near and far and searched on the internet. In the end, I got the best value for my money and am very happy with my purchase. That's how I operate in life.
> 
> After stalking Sunnydales site daily for months, Ellie was there, almost like she was meant for me.:innocent:
> Looking at her makes my heart skip.:wub: and I'm in LOVE with her.
> 
> To me, she has a sweet and soft face right now. I don't know if she'll have a baby doll face as she is still very young. Right now, she's healthy and that's the most important thing to me.
> 
> This is such a happy time in my life, to be bringing her into our family.
> She will get lots of love here and will have a wonderful home with us. :aktion033:


Good for you that you did your research on all aspects of your life. :thumbsup: After all, you are the one who in the end has to live with your decisions so you should be 100% happy with what you get! I cannot blame you for falling in love with Ellie/Effie! She is absolutely adorable!! :wub: When you know, you just know.  Congrats again!


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## edwardsupandy

Purple-peep said:


> (Pat) I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a cutie pie.
> 
> I'll agree too, that I want a cute dog along with good health and nice disposition.
> 
> With Libby, I didn't go to the breeders home and see her set up. Libby was flown to me. I wished there was a reputable breeder in my area but their isn't. Any dog would have to be shipped to me, so why not Korea.
> 
> I also LOVE the look of Divine's malts but they never got back to me, when I e-mailed them.
> 
> I've been mailing Shinyoung for several months now so I feel comfortable with her as a person and a breeder.


Yes I can understand your feeling. I sent an email to Rhapsody maltese breeder bred by Angie and Larry Stanberry who I think the same breeder of Divine Maltese. I think they are not interested in selling their maltese to me, so they just don't reply my email or because they get thousand of emails? So I do understand why you want to cantact Korean breeder like shinemore. 
She replied my email the day after I sent my email. So You are not the only one that some of American breeders don't respond to your email. I think these can be one of the reason why some are looking to Corean's breeders. I don't mean to offend american breeders but just want to share my experiences. I have some impression the more famous the american breeders the more waiting list they have, so this can be one of the reason they select their customers or am I wrong about this?


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## tamizami

edwardsupandy said:


> Yes I can understand your feeling. I sent an email to Rhapsody maltese breeder bred by Angie and Larry Stanberry who I think the same breeder of Divine Maltese. I think they are not interested in selling their maltese to me, so they just don't reply my email or because they get thousand of emails? So I do understand why you want to cantact Korean breeder like shinemore.
> She replied my email the day after I sent my email. So You are not the only one that some of American breeders don't respond to your email. I think these can be one of the reason why some are looking to Corean's breeders. I don't mean to offend american breeders but just want to share my experiences. I have some impression the more famous the american breeders the more waiting list they have, so this can be one of the reason they select their customers or am I wrong about this?


many american breeders show their maltese and so they are not always home to respond immediately to email requests. some of the more well-known maltese breeders are also handlers, so they not only show their own maltese but also dogs from other breeders. these people are also quite busy training and grooming for the show ring, even when its not show day/weekend.

although there is no way of knowing this, many breeders are more comfortable with phone contact rather than email, so imho its best to contact via email and follow up with a phone call.


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## mi_ku_5

I have to say I would have a hard time justifying getting a *pet Maltese* from overseas. If I were a breeder or interested in a hard to find breed then, I would certainly consider it. 

When I was trying to decide what breed dog #3 would be, I often wondered how having a well breed Maltese would affect Bailey. Bailey is my "first born" out of all my pets and I couldn't possibly love him more. I was concerned how other people would treat Bailey if I had a "cuter" Maltese from a reputable breeder. I didn't want anyone to ask why Bailey is so much bigger, why his nose is longer, why his coat is thinner or not as white, etc or just show favor to the other Malt. I think that was part of the reason I decided to go with a different breed.


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## MaryH

mi_ku_5 said:


> I have to say I would have a hard time justifying getting a *pet Maltese* from overseas. If I were a breeder or interested in a hard to find breed then, I would certainly consider it.
> 
> When I was trying to decide what breed dog #3 would be, I often wondered how having a well breed Maltese would affect Bailey. Bailey is my "first born" out of all my pets and I couldn't possibly love him more. I was concerned how other people would treat Bailey if I had a "cuter" Maltese from a reputable breeder. I didn't want anyone to ask why Bailey is so much bigger, why his nose is longer, why his coat is thinner or not as white, etc or just show favor to the other Malt. I think that was part of the reason I decided to go with a different breed.


Please don't ever let someone's ignorance (or ignorant behavior) stop you from getting another Maltese. My first 3 came from Rescue, they are as beautiful to me as any dog I've ever owned or bred. When I take my dogs out I proudly gush about all of my dogs. And if people start fawning over one but not the other I politely tell them they, like me, they have to share their love with all my little friends. They can either share their affection or leave ...


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## Ladysmom

mi_ku_5 said:


> I have to say I would have a hard time justifying getting a *pet Maltese* from overseas. If I were a breeder or interested in a hard to find breed then, I would certainly consider it.
> 
> When I was trying to decide what breed dog #3 would be, I often wondered how having a well breed Maltese would affect Bailey. Bailey is my "first born" out of all my pets and I couldn't possibly love him more. I was concerned how other people would treat Bailey if I had a "cuter" Maltese from a reputable breeder. I didn't want anyone to ask why Bailey is so much bigger, why his nose is longer, why his coat is thinner or not as white, etc or just show favor to the other Malt. I think that was part of the reason I decided to go with a different breed.


Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I could have a houseful of show quality Maltese and Lady would still be the most beautiful to me!


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## Lacie's Mom

Lacie is a very cute Maltese (although it normally doesn't show in pics because she hates being photographed) and she is 6 lbs. and from a very reputable breeder. She "shines" when we're out in public. Just loves getting attention. Does all kinds of cute things to make everyone notice her. And, of course, they do. 

Tilly is from a puppy mill/pet store background (rescued her from death's doorsteps) and she is a big girl (11 lbs.) but no fat -- just a big girl. She has a very pretty face, imho, but I'm often questioned when we're out whether or not she's truly a Maltese. I know that she is primarily Maltese but I believe that she has something else in her background. Believe it or not, my hunch is that she has some Chinese Crested Powder Puff in her. Because of her history, she really doesn't like for stangers to pet her. She's curious and isn't nervous, but would prefer that they pet Lacie and just look at her. She would rather be in my arms and just peek at the strangers.

Anyway, Tilly is the sweetest, most loving, happy and fun fluff around. I wouldn't trade her for the top winning show dog. She's my baby and I love her and whether or not she is 100% Maltese -- I don't care. She's a sweetheart. To me, she's just perfect.


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## Matilda's mommy

Ladysmom said:


> Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I could have a houseful of show quality Maltese and Lady would still be the most beautiful to me!


 

oh Marj I'm in love with that picture of Lady:wub:she looks like she has a little smile on her face:wub: just the cutest picture :wub:


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## Ladysmom

Matilda's mommy said:


> oh Marj I'm in love with that picture of Lady:wub:she looks like she has a little smile on her face:wub: just the cutest picture :wub:


Lady is pretty cute for an old gal, isn't she? Of course, having an amazing wardrobe helps!


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## CrystalAndZoe

mi_ku_5 said:


> I have to say I would have a hard time justifying getting a *pet Maltese* from overseas. If I were a breeder or interested in a hard to find breed then, I would certainly consider it.
> 
> When I was trying to decide what breed dog #3 would be, I often wondered how having a well breed Maltese would affect Bailey. Bailey is my "first born" out of all my pets and I couldn't possibly love him more. I was concerned how other people would treat Bailey if I had a "cuter" Maltese from a reputable breeder. I didn't want anyone to ask why Bailey is so much bigger, why his nose is longer, why his coat is thinner or not as white, etc or just show favor to the other Malt. I think that was part of the reason I decided to go with a different breed.





MaryH said:


> Please don't ever let someone's ignorance (or ignorant behavior) stop you from getting another Maltese. My first 3 came from Rescue, they are as beautiful to me as any dog I've ever owned or bred. When I take my dogs out I proudly gush about all of my dogs. And if people start fawning over one but not the other I politely tell them they, like me, they have to share their love with all my little friends. They can either share their affection or leave ...


I totally understand where you are coming from with your sweet Bailey. I didn't like taking Zoe & Jett places together because my Zoe is so smart and sensitive, she knew when she was not getting the same type of attention and gushing that Jett got. It really upset her and she even began doing some undesirable behaviors to get attention, such as barking and pawing at legs. So having 3 is kind of nice because I can take them separately, or even Callie & Jett together and Zoe on her own. Zoe truly does glow when she's being gushed over. Which she really does when it's just she and me out together.:wub:

So don't let that hold you back. You can always take them out separately.:thumbsup:


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## uniquelovdolce

i have really found this thread informative and i agree that its ok to disagree and no one should take offense to another ones opinion. i have a few questions, call it me being naive...

which are the korean malts? 
is the extreme baby face term similar to that of a shitzu?
did anyone find out the korean standard?

i problably wouldnt get a baby from oversees, just because i wouldnt want a apup flown from soo far away , and because i wouldnt be able to visit the pup prior. 

but i agree that everyone should get what they are looking for and if for some that means going overseas , so be it .. i think all malts are adorable n its their personality above everything that makes them so unique.. look at my dolce ,, got him thru a broker "thinking it was a breeder" actually they never lied to me really i just didnt do sufficient research and in my eyes he is perfect. in temperament and all n to me he has the cutes lil face


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## pammy4501

Ladysmom said:


> Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I could have a houseful of show quality Maltese and Lady would still be the most beautiful to me!


 That's because Lady IS beautifu!!!


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## maltlovereileen

pammy4501 said:


> That's because Lady IS beautifu!!!


Agree!!!! I :heart: Lady


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## Divine Maltese

This is Angela, of Divine Maltese. 
I try and answer every email that I get but since I am the groomer, cook and poop butt washer it sometimes takes me a second but I try and answer every legitimate email I get. I don't always response to unsigned emails.


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## bellaratamaltese

Divine Maltese said:


> This is Angela, of Divine Maltese.
> I try and answer every email that I get but since I am the groomer, cook and poop butt washer it sometimes takes me a second but I try and answer every legitimate email I get. I don't always response to unsigned emails.


Hi Angie! I'm sorry it got the point where you felt the need to comment here but I'm glad to see you! 

You made a great point about the unsigned emails. I don't typically reply to those either and I don't even get that many inquiries.


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## CrystalAndZoe

Divine Maltese said:


> This is Angela, of Divine Maltese.
> I try and answer every email that I get but since I am the groomer, cook and poop butt washer it sometimes takes me a second but I try and answer every legitimate email I get. I don't always response to unsigned emails.





bellaratamaltese said:


> Hi Angie! I'm sorry it got the point where you felt the need to comment here but I'm glad to see you!
> 
> You made a great point about the unsigned emails. I don't typically reply to those either and I don't even get that many inquiries.



I think that is an excellent point. Thank you for responding Angela. It is truly a shame that you even had to. 

On a side note...perhaps some breeders aren't responding to emails because what is being asked for is beyond what is and should be accepted and expected of a well bred Maltese. I think if I were a breeder and received an email asking for too many particulars, I would have a fear of what would happen to my puppy if something should develop later that would deem him/her no longer 'perfect'. 

I'm not saying that anyone who mentioned not getting a response to an email in this thread did that. However after hearing what some people are asking for in a Maltese, I get the feeling that perhaps they've laid out such a list of what they do and don't want, it could deter a responsible, ethical breeder from responding.


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## bellaratamaltese

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I think that is an excellent point. Thank you for responding Angela. It is truly a shame that you even had to.
> 
> On a side note...perhaps some breeders aren't responding to emails because what is being asked for is beyond what is and should be accepted and expected of a well bred Maltese. I think if I were a breeder and received an email asking for too many particulars, I would have a fear of what would happen to my puppy if something should develop later that would deem him/her no longer 'perfect'.
> 
> I'm not saying that anyone who mentioned not getting a response to an email in this thread did that. However after hearing what some people are asking for in a Maltese, I get the feeling that perhaps they've laid out such a list of what they do and don't want, it could deter a responsible, ethical breeder from responding.



DEFINITELY agree with this. I've even had a few emails with a long list of particulars and I always feel like i have to 'justify' why I may not ever have what they are looking for or that I cannot guarantee it if they are looking for a pup in the future. It can be detering, esp if the email is worded in such a way that it comes across on demands and expectations rather than a puppy preference.


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## CloudClan

Divine Maltese said:


> This is Angela, of Divine Maltese.
> I try and answer every email that I get but *since I am the groomer, cook and poop butt washer it sometimes takes me a second but I try and answer every legitimate email I get. I don't always response to unsigned emails.*





Crystal&Zoe said:


> I think that is an excellent point. Thank you for responding Angela. It is truly a shame that you even had to.
> 
> On a side note...perhaps some breeders aren't responding to emails because what is being asked for is beyond what is and should be accepted and expected of a well bred Maltese. I* think if I were a breeder and received an email asking for too many particulars, I would have a fear of what would happen to my puppy if something should develop later that would deem him/her no longer 'perfect'. *
> 
> I'm not saying that anyone who mentioned not getting a response to an email in this thread did that. However after hearing what some people are asking for in a Maltese, I get the feeling that perhaps they've laid out such a list of what they do and don't want, it could deter a responsible, ethical breeder from responding.





bellaratamaltese said:


> DEFINITELY agree with this. *I've even had a few emails with a long list of particulars and I always feel like i have to 'justify' why I may not ever have what they are looking for or that I cannot guarantee it if they are looking for a pup in the future. It can be detering, esp if the email is worded in such a way that it comes across on demands and expectations rather than a puppy preference.*


These are some excellent points ladies. I can certainly understand getting overwhelmed sheer numbers of emails, especially when the dogs justly take priority. I know I sometimes feel overloaded with emails and appreciate those people who forgive me for sometimes reading them and not responding immediately. I can only imagine the number of emails that some of our more "famous" breeders get. If you are interested in an established show breeder here in the US, I think it would make sense to try contacting a breeder more than once before you consider flying a little puppy in from overseas. 

I also think that it is so important for people to consider their expectations. I have heard a lot of concern from breeders about the increasingly exacting nature of requests. They say that it is like people think they are baking a cake or tailoring a suit. People ask for a dog that is under 4 pounds, has a babydoll face, inky black pigment with full eye-rims and halos, a pure white silk coat, a perfect bite, a kissy-cuddly but calm and outgoing temperament, etc. 

Honestly, if a breeder has this faultless specimen available all the time then they MUST be breeding a LOT. And if they these qualities are available continually (esp under 4 pounds with babydoll face) then I tend to think they are breeding for a pet market rather than focusing on breeding for show. 

I often hear people say that they know that breeders are not trying to produce dogs under 4 pounds, but they get them sometimes so that is what I want. Well, the thing is, if breeders are trying to breed for the standard, then these puppies should be rare. And yet the requests for them are not at all rare. Therefore, putting emphasis on qualities such as this will make it much harder for you to find the right puppy from a breeder who is working hard to breed to the standard. 

I know when I was taking calls for rescue, I used to get all the time these very specific requests: Female, Tiny, Young (a year or less). I had literally hundreds of applications that said that. Do you have any idea how many of those dogs I placed when I was fostering that fit those qualities? 1. And frankly, she was placed with someone who was not looking for those specifics-she was placed with someone who had also adopted a very sick senior Maltese from a shelter and had donated her time and resources to helping other rescues. In other words I took that special baby to someone I considered to be very special as well. 

My point being that I think that it is important to understand and have realistic expectations that are related to the health and welfare of the breed and to the relationship you hope to have with your dog. If that is what your primary goal is, then I don't think it should be difficult to find the right dog or the right breeder. 

To the point of the OP. I don't see myself going overseas for a puppy--partly because I do believe there are sooo many wonderful breeders with beautiful dogs much closer. But then, I did consider breeders in Canada when I first started looking for a show dog, so I can't say I would never buy outside the country and I did fly to California for Cadie because I had met Sheila in person and liked her. So I guess if there is a breeder you have gotten to know and admire somewhere in the world, then it is a small world and taking advantage of that is fine. I just hope people put in as much research as possible, wherever they get their puppies. 

And while I know this is controversial, for my own comfort level, I personally would never buy from a breeder unless I was able to visit with them and their dogs in person at some point.


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