# Koenen Kennels?



## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Long time lurker, first time poster - wonderful community here.

Has anyone ever dealt with Koenen Kennels? 

Home Page

Good feedback from past customers, responsive owner, USDA, breeding for 15 years and relatively few puppies available for sale

Concerning is the number of breeds (~3) available for sale, but offset by the fact that there isn't a million dogs being put up. Also, no address listed on website.

Would appreciate any input!

*UPDATE: *Based on the input here, I've chosen NOT to purchase from Koenen Kennels but please reserve judgement for yourself - I am not here solicit badmouthing of anyone at Koenen Kennels and I believe in the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. If they ARE a puppy mill, shame on them, but my personal impression of the kennel owner was that she was kind and caring. 

Either way, I'm going to follow the recommendaitons here and seek out a reputable (show) breeder or rescue dogs. Do your own due diligence.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

muffinman said:


> Long time lurker, first time poster - wonderful community here.
> 
> Has anyone ever dealt with Koenen Kennels?
> 
> ...


I cannot see where you are located (you must be in Iowa?) but....the fact they are USDA, and have 4 breeds tells the world it's a puppymill! *Stay away from them! *

A little search produced this information:

*Koenen, Chad & Alanda / Koenen Kennels 2010*
2687 Fig Ave., Rock Valley, Iowa 51247
Ph: 712-476-9383
Cell:
Fax:
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.koenenkennels.com

Iowa has one of the largest puppymill operatons in the country - they are right up there with PA, IN, OH, OK just to name a few. :yucky:

Look here for their kennel - USDA LISTS Usually the address is listed...yes! they are listed.

Look here it will be helpful! MALTESE BREEDERS - How to find and evaulate


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## Sandcastles (Jul 7, 2010)

Sounds dubious (at best) to me.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

PASS!

I didn't see anything on the site that would make me recommend. you say they don't have a lot of puppies for sale - I disagree. The only thing I can say positive is that they aren't charging outrageous prices for not great quality puppies. There is no info on the parents and charging extra for AKC papers? Not the way it's usually done. 

I don't know them and have never heard of their kennel or seen their dogs - my opinion is based on the info provided on the website only.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I agree with the others. This is a puppy mill. People can put anything on a website. A reputable breeder shows their dogs. I'm so glad you came here for advice.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

I would not buy a puppy from them. It makes me sick when I see people making a living selling puppies. Have you looked on petfinder, there are over 1100 maltese that need homes.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Some states require that anyone who breeds or sells animals is to be licensed with the USDA. If that is the case, you have to give the breeder's who do license credit to stay within the law. Plus, USDA monitors these breeders and kennels to make sure that they are housing their animals in a safe clean enviroment. 

Otherwise, I agree with Stacy on the statis of this kennel. They are breeding and have a lot of puppies for sale. The owner stated that she is very busy with the puppies and might not get you pictures. It is very time consuming to take care of several litters at the same time.




HOME


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

My opinion is that it appears to be a puppy mill, and my advice is to avoid it if that is the case. 

Puppy mill owners cruelly keep sick dogs in horribly filthy cramped conditions just to make a profit. In addition, most puppy mill dogs will have health, behavior and socialization issues, which means heartbreak and $$$ for the new owners.

Before anyone buys from a puppy mill, they can do a search on google images typing in the words _puppy mill._


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Thank you everyone, I haven't committed to anything yet and didn't want to until I had done my research.

Does being listed in the USDA registery necessarily designate a kennel as a puppy mill? Couldn't there be legitimate breeders and kennels that are USDA designated? After all, they should be being inspected by the USDA agents.

Just trying to educate myself, thanks again


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

muffinman said:


> Thank you everyone, I haven't committed to anything yet and didn't want to until I had done my research.
> 
> Does being listed in the USDA registery necessarily designate a kennel as a puppy mill? Couldn't there be legitimate breeders and kennels that are USDA designated? After all, they should be being inspected by the USDA agents.
> 
> Just trying to educate myself, thanks again


Large commercial kennels who wholesale puppies to pet stores and brokers are required to be licensed by the USDA. Reputable breeders never wholesale their puppies to a third party as they insist on personally screening prospective buyers.

Breeders who sell at the retail level (directly to the consumer) are not required to be licensed by the USDA.

There is a lot of information about the USDA and puppymills here:

Puppymills - Information about puppy mills and how to shut them down.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Oh geeze to say the least,they have a lot of puppies for sale....
I hae to say when I looked at my fluffs as pups,they had beautiful white clean faces. I'm sure puppies will have tear stains but most of the Malts seem to have it.

The other thing is puppies available at 6-8 weeks old?

I'm sure the kids love to play w/ the puppies and get interaction...

Looks like a small puppymill to me.. 
I know it's hard to not be taken in by those wholesome images of kids and puppies and the letters from satisfied customers....

But it's obvious they make a living from breeding puppies....

Who knows that's in the bloodline,congenital illness or disease or physical handicap,like luxing patella,that will crop up later.My Rylee,is a puppymil puppy that the former owner got from Texas,he'd been shut down 2 other times for cruelty. Rylee has LP now,so the former owner had used him for stud,has passed that down to his offspring and now their offspring...


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

It's great that you are researching,it means you and your future fluff will have a good chance of being together for a long time..


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

muffinman said:


> Thank you everyone, I haven't committed to anything yet and didn't want to until I had done my research.
> 
> Does being listed in the USDA registery necessarily designate a kennel as a puppy mill? Couldn't there be legitimate breeders and kennels that are USDA designated? After all, they should be being inspected by the USDA agents.
> 
> Just trying to educate myself, thanks again


Some states require that no matter how many animals you have you have to have a USDA license. It does not mean that they are a "puppy mill". To find out which state does this requires quite a bit of research. I do know Kansas is not one. If you breed in Kansas at all, you are required to be licensed by the state. 
In Iowa, there is Marty Klabunde in Honey Creek is a good Maltese breeder. Her kennel name is Cedarwood. Email for her phone number.


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks much all.

I actually live in WA but am having a hard time finding local, well-reputed Maltese breeders.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

muffinman said:


> Thank you everyone, I haven't committed to anything yet and didn't want to until I had done my research.
> 
> Does being listed in the USDA registery necessarily designate a kennel as a puppy mill? Couldn't there be legitimate breeders and kennels that are USDA designated? After all, they should be being inspected by the USDA agents.
> 
> Just trying to educate myself, thanks again


Oh muffinman, I sure hope you do stick around. I'll be very honest, I don't know anything at all about the place that you asked about. All I do know, is that it broke my heart seeing those babies. All those babies. To me, most if not all, looked so sad 

There is a great deal of information on this site, as well as a some Reputable breeders who are members. And you have been given really great advice above.

The people on here are so good, and will help guide you anyway you need.

My heart not only breaks for the puppies, but the parents as well. Just going by my reaction from looking at the site.

How sad, just breaks you heart.

So glad you joined and so glad you asked. I learned so much by being a member here and it can be alot of fun too.

WELCOME!


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

muffinman said:


> Thanks much all.
> 
> I actually live in WA but am having a hard time finding local, well-reputed Maltese breeders.


 
Oh I am not sure about your area, but I copied and pasted a thread that Starsmom shared the link to you for.

What you may want to do, is contact one of the breeders on the AMA American Maltse Association and ask if they could refer you to someone, or maybe they have a pup available for you.

There are so many options. 

Here is the thread that Starsmom pointed out to you. So much great information. It really is so worth the read. It not only will help you, but the puppies and parents.

*How to Find and Evaluate Maltese Breeders*

*Information from various SM members has been incorporated in to my post below. Contributors are Coco, Cosy, I Found Nemo, LadysMom, Mom2Bijou, MySugarBears, Nikki’s Mom, Poppy’s Mommy, Puppy Lover, Sicilian Rose, and Tobys Mom. *

Adding a Maltese to your home is an important decision, since your new family member will hopefully be with you for many, 
many years. If you take the time to research breeders and only buy from a responsible breeder, you will save yourself heartache 
in the long term. Also, if you spend a little more money and buy from a responsible breeder, you will likely have less genetic health issues 
and spend less over the lifetime of your Maltese. In many cases a responsible breeder’s prices are the same or less than a pet store's 
or backyard breeder's prices.

A lot of people know not to buy from pet stores. They know to buy from a breeder, but it is likely that they don’t know that 
there are certain types of breeders that they should avoid. 

Most people would not dream of contracting a company to do thousands of dollars worth of home repair without thoroughly checking 
the business out. When it comes to puppies, though, people often seem to skip this step and rely on their emotions. The information below should help you in your research to find a responsible breeder.

You may wonder what a responsible breeder is. There are a lot of things to look for but if the first one isn’t met, then you might as well 
move on right away. The most important aspect of being a responsible breeder is that the breeder knows the lines behind the Malts 
she is breeding. She makes sure that the Malts are good representatives of the breed... being very close to breed standard either by 
achieving a championship or being evaluated by Maltese experts. Because she knows the dogs in the parent's pedigree, she is likely aware if there are any genetic diseases in the lines.

Also, in most all cases, a responsible breeder is actively involved in showing her dogs. Because she breeds to improve the breed and 
to continually have dogs to show, she will from time to time have puppies that are considered “pet quality” because of minor “faults”. 

*Types of puppy sellers to avoid:*
You may find a home breeder who has bred pet store puppies and you see that the home is clean and the puppies are kept in ideal 
conditions. But this is NOT a responsible breeder. Why? Because the breeder likely does not know the Malts that are in the lines of the 
breeding pair. She does not know the diseases that may be in the Malts’ lines. Nor is it likely that the Malts will be within standard and 
you may end up with a 12-pound Maltese or one with curly hair, or bad temperament, etc. The type of breeder that has just been 
described is called a *Backyard Breeder [BYB]* and even though the puppies are in a home, this is still a BYB. 

BYB’s typically breed to earn income off their puppies and usually are not knowledgeable about the breed and they let the puppies go 
to their new homes at less than 12 weeks old; and oftentimes the puppies go to their new homes with kennel cough, coccidia, parvo 
or other diseases.

Also, don’t buy a puppy from an *online site*. This is not the same as a breeder’s site where you can learn all about the breeder 
and be evaluated by the breeder to see if you are a good fit for one of their puppies. Stay away from online sites that have puppies’ 
photos lined up as if they were selling a commodity. These types of sites don’t evaluate buyers and they take credit cards without any 
sort of vetting process of the buyers. Buying from this type of site is likely to end up badly.

Another type of seller of puppies to avoid is called a *broker*. A broker does not breed her own dogs. She buys puppies from a 
breeder to sell. It is not recommended that you buy from a broker. A broker is treating the sale of puppies like a business and in most 
all cases, she doesn’t have any knowledge of the background of the puppies. Sometimes it can be hard to distinguish that a seller of 
puppies is indeed a broker. If you are following the suggestions here on how to find a responsible breeder, you should not even be at 
the point of evaluating a broker. However, if it should happen that you are, it’s best to just move on.

Please be aware of the following *RED FLAGS* when working with a breeder.

*>* Breeder is not comfortable with your reasonable questions and is defensive.

*>* Breeder will not show you the parent’s pedigrees.

*> *Breeder is not knowledgeable of the Maltese and the kennel names listed within the first 3 generations if the pedigree. 

*>* Breeder’s price is considerably more or considerably less than the prices that other show, reputable breeders 
charge for their pet or show quality puppies.

*>* Breeder agrees to sell you the puppy but gives you nothing in writing if you ask for it. 
Most breeders will ask for a deposit (often non-refundable) until the puppy is ready to go home, at no sooner than 12 weeks.

*> *Puppy is registered with a registry other than the AKC. Make sure you check the AKC suspension list, too. (See link below) 
Breeders will try to tell potential buyers all sorts of reasons why they have "chosen" to register their puppies with the alternative 
registries, when in reality they may have been suspended from the AKC.

*> *Breeder is willing to sell the pup without a spay/neuter contract (no breeding.)

*>* There is not a health guarantee for genetic health problems and a certain amount of time allowed that the buyer can bring the pup 
to their own vet for a checkup and returned to the breeder if there are any health concerns.

*Other points to help in your search . . .*

*>* Google the name of breeder and kennel. You would be surprised how many hits you can get on discussions about the breeder 
on forums like this or even reports on the breeder from the AKC and other agencies.

*>* The breeder should give you a written check list from their vet indicating the Malt is in good health. My breeder, for example, gave me a document that had about 10+ areas that the vet checked and the results, such as teeth, knees, etc. You should ask for records 
of vaccines, worming, etc.

*>* A good place to start your search for a reputable breeder is the American Maltese Association Breeder’s list. If an AMA breeder 
doesn’t have a puppy for you or live near you, they can likely recommend a breeder that they are personally familiar with. 
(see links below). Please note that there are responsible Maltese breeders who are not AMA members.

*> *Maltese are prone to having liver issues. It is a good idea to have a Bile Acid test done before getting the puppy. There is a lot 
of information on SM regarding liver shunts and Bile Acid tests, if you do a search on those words. There is some information
saying that the test should be done at 6 months, which of course will be too late for those getting a Maltese at 12 weeks.

*> *When you are researching and asking questions of a breeder, always be polite and kind. Do NOT treat that reputable breeder 
like they are on the "stand" so to speak. Always remain polite and respectful.

*> *Another thing you might want to ask a breeder, when purchasing a male puppy, is if both testicles have descended. Also for 
both males and females, ask if the puppy has an open fontanel. 

*> *It is always “buyer beware”, just recently Lacie's Mom warned us that "bad" breeders will even enter their dogs in a show just 
to get a ribbon and a picture taken so they can claim their puppies come from "show dogs". 

And of course, it goes without saying ... never, ever buy a puppy from a pet store ... no matter if it is a lovely place, clean and bright ... No responsible breeder sells her puppies to a pet store, so you are almost certainly getting a puppy from a puppymill or a breeder who is not reputable. You'll get all sorts of stories from pet stores about their "select group of breeders" .. Don't buy in to it ... Run, don't walk, away.

*Informative Links:*

*American Maltese Association Breeders List: *
By Name: http://americanmaltese.org/ama_breed...ha_listing.htm
By State: http://americanmaltese.org/2009_AMA_Breeders_List.pdf

*ASPCA article*
http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/...d-on-puppy.html

*Humane Society article*
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_adoption_info...od_dog_breeder/

*Traits of Responsible Breeders; Traits of BYBs:*
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

*Rip Off Report:*
http://www.ripoffreport.com/

*AKC Suspension List:*
http://www.barkbytes.com/suspend/suspindx.htm#a

*Prisoners of Greed site with information on researching breeders:*
http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/ListA2006.pdf

*Research Puppy's Origin:*
http://www.petshoppuppies.org/

*Link to petplace.com* 
http://www.petplace.com/
(Type in the word “breeder” in to the Search to find a list of good articles.)

Foxstone Maltese and Divine Maltese, responsible breeders, have some excellent articles on their sites, as follows:

*Information on “Teacup Maltese”... marketing ploy:*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/teacupmaltese.htm

*How to find a responsible breeder:*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/reputable_M...se_breeders.htm

*The 12-week rule:*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm

*“I don’t want a show dog, I only want a pet”*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/reputable_M...se_breeders.htm

*Divine Maltese article*
http://www.divinemaltese.com/maltesepuppycost.html

*And of course, you can always help a Maltese in need by getting your Malt through a rescue organization:*
Northcentral Maltese Rescue
Southern Comfort Maltese Rescue 
__________________


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

muffinman said:


> Thanks much all.
> 
> I actually live in WA but am having a hard time finding local, well-reputed Maltese breeders.


 
Oh I am not sure about your area, but I copied and pasted a thread that Starsmom shared the link to you for.

What you may want to do, is contact one of the breeders on the AMA American Maltse Association and ask if they could refer you to someone, or maybe they have a pup available for you.

There are so many options. 

Here is the thread that Starsmom pointed out to you. So much great information. It really is so worth the read. It not only will help you, but the puppies and parents.

*How to Find and Evaluate Maltese Breeders*

*Information from various SM members has been incorporated in to my post below. Contributors are Coco, Cosy, I Found Nemo, LadysMom, Mom2Bijou, MySugarBears, Nikki’s Mom, Poppy’s Mommy, Puppy Lover, Sicilian Rose, and Tobys Mom. *

Adding a Maltese to your home is an important decision, since your new family member will hopefully be with you for many, 
many years. If you take the time to research breeders and only buy from a responsible breeder, you will save yourself heartache 
in the long term. Also, if you spend a little more money and buy from a responsible breeder, you will likely have less genetic health issues 
and spend less over the lifetime of your Maltese. In many cases a responsible breeder’s prices are the same or less than a pet store's 
or backyard breeder's prices.

A lot of people know not to buy from pet stores. They know to buy from a breeder, but it is likely that they don’t know that 
there are certain types of breeders that they should avoid. 

Most people would not dream of contracting a company to do thousands of dollars worth of home repair without thoroughly checking 
the business out. When it comes to puppies, though, people often seem to skip this step and rely on their emotions. The information below should help you in your research to find a responsible breeder.

You may wonder what a responsible breeder is. There are a lot of things to look for but if the first one isn’t met, then you might as well 
move on right away. The most important aspect of being a responsible breeder is that the breeder knows the lines behind the Malts 
she is breeding. She makes sure that the Malts are good representatives of the breed... being very close to breed standard either by 
achieving a championship or being evaluated by Maltese experts. Because she knows the dogs in the parent's pedigree, she is likely aware if there are any genetic diseases in the lines.

Also, in most all cases, a responsible breeder is actively involved in showing her dogs. Because she breeds to improve the breed and 
to continually have dogs to show, she will from time to time have puppies that are considered “pet quality” because of minor “faults”. 

*Types of puppy sellers to avoid:*
You may find a home breeder who has bred pet store puppies and you see that the home is clean and the puppies are kept in ideal 
conditions. But this is NOT a responsible breeder. Why? Because the breeder likely does not know the Malts that are in the lines of the 
breeding pair. She does not know the diseases that may be in the Malts’ lines. Nor is it likely that the Malts will be within standard and 
you may end up with a 12-pound Maltese or one with curly hair, or bad temperament, etc. The type of breeder that has just been 
described is called a *Backyard Breeder [BYB]* and even though the puppies are in a home, this is still a BYB. 

BYB’s typically breed to earn income off their puppies and usually are not knowledgeable about the breed and they let the puppies go 
to their new homes at less than 12 weeks old; and oftentimes the puppies go to their new homes with kennel cough, coccidia, parvo 
or other diseases.

Also, don’t buy a puppy from an *online site*. This is not the same as a breeder’s site where you can learn all about the breeder 
and be evaluated by the breeder to see if you are a good fit for one of their puppies. Stay away from online sites that have puppies’ 
photos lined up as if they were selling a commodity. These types of sites don’t evaluate buyers and they take credit cards without any 
sort of vetting process of the buyers. Buying from this type of site is likely to end up badly.

Another type of seller of puppies to avoid is called a *broker*. A broker does not breed her own dogs. She buys puppies from a 
breeder to sell. It is not recommended that you buy from a broker. A broker is treating the sale of puppies like a business and in most 
all cases, she doesn’t have any knowledge of the background of the puppies. Sometimes it can be hard to distinguish that a seller of 
puppies is indeed a broker. If you are following the suggestions here on how to find a responsible breeder, you should not even be at 
the point of evaluating a broker. However, if it should happen that you are, it’s best to just move on.

Please be aware of the following *RED FLAGS* when working with a breeder.

*>* Breeder is not comfortable with your reasonable questions and is defensive.

*>* Breeder will not show you the parent’s pedigrees.

*> *Breeder is not knowledgeable of the Maltese and the kennel names listed within the first 3 generations if the pedigree. 

*>* Breeder’s price is considerably more or considerably less than the prices that other show, reputable breeders 
charge for their pet or show quality puppies.

*>* Breeder agrees to sell you the puppy but gives you nothing in writing if you ask for it. 
Most breeders will ask for a deposit (often non-refundable) until the puppy is ready to go home, at no sooner than 12 weeks.

*> *Puppy is registered with a registry other than the AKC. Make sure you check the AKC suspension list, too. (See link below) 
Breeders will try to tell potential buyers all sorts of reasons why they have "chosen" to register their puppies with the alternative 
registries, when in reality they may have been suspended from the AKC.

*> *Breeder is willing to sell the pup without a spay/neuter contract (no breeding.)

*>* There is not a health guarantee for genetic health problems and a certain amount of time allowed that the buyer can bring the pup 
to their own vet for a checkup and returned to the breeder if there are any health concerns.

*Other points to help in your search . . .*

*>* Google the name of breeder and kennel. You would be surprised how many hits you can get on discussions about the breeder 
on forums like this or even reports on the breeder from the AKC and other agencies.

*>* The breeder should give you a written check list from their vet indicating the Malt is in good health. My breeder, for example, gave me a document that had about 10+ areas that the vet checked and the results, such as teeth, knees, etc. You should ask for records 
of vaccines, worming, etc.

*>* A good place to start your search for a reputable breeder is the American Maltese Association Breeder’s list. If an AMA breeder 
doesn’t have a puppy for you or live near you, they can likely recommend a breeder that they are personally familiar with. 
(see links below). Please note that there are responsible Maltese breeders who are not AMA members.

*> *Maltese are prone to having liver issues. It is a good idea to have a Bile Acid test done before getting the puppy. There is a lot 
of information on SM regarding liver shunts and Bile Acid tests, if you do a search on those words. There is some information
saying that the test should be done at 6 months, which of course will be too late for those getting a Maltese at 12 weeks.

*> *When you are researching and asking questions of a breeder, always be polite and kind. Do NOT treat that reputable breeder 
like they are on the "stand" so to speak. Always remain polite and respectful.

*> *Another thing you might want to ask a breeder, when purchasing a male puppy, is if both testicles have descended. Also for 
both males and females, ask if the puppy has an open fontanel. 

*> *It is always “buyer beware”, just recently Lacie's Mom warned us that "bad" breeders will even enter their dogs in a show just 
to get a ribbon and a picture taken so they can claim their puppies come from "show dogs". 

And of course, it goes without saying ... never, ever buy a puppy from a pet store ... no matter if it is a lovely place, clean and bright ... No responsible breeder sells her puppies to a pet store, so you are almost certainly getting a puppy from a puppymill or a breeder who is not reputable. You'll get all sorts of stories from pet stores about their "select group of breeders" .. Don't buy in to it ... Run, don't walk, away.

*Informative Links:*

*American Maltese Association Breeders List: *
By Name: http://americanmaltese.org/ama_breed...ha_listing.htm
By State: http://americanmaltese.org/2009_AMA_Breeders_List.pdf

*ASPCA article*
http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/...d-on-puppy.html

*Humane Society article*
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_adoption_info...od_dog_breeder/

*Traits of Responsible Breeders; Traits of BYBs:*
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

*Rip Off Report:*
http://www.ripoffreport.com/

*AKC Suspension List:*
http://www.barkbytes.com/suspend/suspindx.htm#a

*Prisoners of Greed site with information on researching breeders:*
http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/ListA2006.pdf

*Research Puppy's Origin:*
http://www.petshoppuppies.org/

*Link to petplace.com* 
http://www.petplace.com/
(Type in the word “breeder” in to the Search to find a list of good articles.)

Foxstone Maltese and Divine Maltese, responsible breeders, have some excellent articles on their sites, as follows:

*Information on “Teacup Maltese”... marketing ploy:*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/teacupmaltese.htm

*How to find a responsible breeder:*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/reputable_M...se_breeders.htm

*The 12-week rule:*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm

*“I don’t want a show dog, I only want a pet”*
http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/reputable_M...se_breeders.htm

*Divine Maltese article*
http://www.divinemaltese.com/maltesepuppycost.html

*And of course, you can always help a Maltese in need by getting your Malt through a rescue organization:*
Northcentral Maltese Rescue
Southern Comfort Maltese Rescue 
__________________


----------



## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

allheart: I actually just got done reading that  Thanks for the link. I looked for the AMA breeders list but there's a fee that must be paid to view it... I may end up paying it if I don't have any luck elsewhere.

I did contact a hobby breeder, Sandy from Foley, Missouri who home raises her dogs She only breeds Maltese, won't let them go before they are 12 weeks, and her puppies are never in kennels. She only has one litter for sale and does not breed often and the pups come with a 2 year congenital health guarentee. All pictures are from inside the home and the pups look happy, not that it means much (they're not set shots with fancy backdrops, costumes, etc. they are pictures of the pups running around, having fun inside thehome)

As a disclaimer, I am not trying to bring bad press on Koenen... I do believe everyone's innocent until proven guilty and by all accounts, the owner seemed like a very genuine, caring person and the puppies do look happy from what pictures I have seen.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

muffinman said:


> allheart: I actually just got done reading that  Thanks for the link. I looked for the AMA breeders list but there's a fee that must be paid to view it... I may end up paying it if I don't have any luck elsewhere.
> 
> I did contact a hobby breeder, Sandy from Foley, Missouri who home raises her dogs She only breeds Maltese, won't let them go before they are 12 weeks, and her puppies are never in kennels. She only has one litter for sale and does not breed often and the pups come with a 2 year congenital health guarentee. All pictures are from inside the home and the pups look happy, not that it means much (they're not set shots with fancy backdrops, costumes, etc. they are pictures of the pups running around, having fun inside thehome)
> 
> As a disclaimer, I am not trying to bring bad press on Koenen... I do believe everyone's innocent until proven guilty and by all accounts, the owner seemed like a very genuine, caring person and the puppies do look happy from what pictures I have seen.


 
Sorry :blush: wasn't sure you saw the link. And I know you are not trying to hurt anyone's reputation, no one is. Just going by what is seen .

I've had 5 Maltese in my lifetime.

Flakey - Pet store baby (many issues, but loved and love him dearly, he passed away at age 15)

Tina Marie - Very lovely home breeder, she passed away at age 7

Kara - Very lovely home breeder, she passed away at age 8.

Not trying to scare you, but spare you any heartache.

It really took me so long to understand the whole concept.

Now I have my Mia and Leo and I love them dearly, but they too, are from byb's. But with the help of the forum, I've learned so much.

Here is a link to the AMA listing that you do not have to pay for. It is by state

American Maltese Association

Additionally there are wonderful reputable show breeders not on that list, but it is a great place to start. 

And if one is not in your area, but maybe near you, give them a call, and I bet they can help guide you in the right direction.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

muffinman said:


> allheart: I actually just got done reading that  Thanks for the link. I looked for the AMA breeders list but there's a fee that must be paid to view it... I may end up paying it if I don't have any luck elsewhere.
> 
> I did contact a hobby breeder, Sandy from Foley, Missouri who home raises her dogs She only breeds Maltese, won't let them go before they are 12 weeks, and her puppies are never in kennels. She only has one litter for sale and does not breed often and the pups come with a 2 year congenital health guarentee. All pictures are from inside the home and the pups look happy, not that it means much (they're not set shots with fancy backdrops, costumes, etc. they are pictures of the pups running around, having fun inside thehome)
> 
> As a disclaimer, I am not trying to bring bad press on Koenen... I do believe everyone's innocent until proven guilty and by all accounts, the owner seemed like a very genuine, caring person and the puppies do look happy from what pictures I have seen.



You looked at the wrong list. The AMA does NOT charge a fee to see their breeder list
American Maltese Association


You asked for an opinion and it was given. As I said I don't know this kennel but based on their site, I wouldn't give them any business EVER. I would take a look at the breeder list and contact some of the breeders in your state. If they can't help you, I'm sure they can direct you to a breeder who can. Good luck!!


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

bellaratamaltese said:


> You looked at the wrong list. The AMA does NOT charge a fee to see their breeder list
> American Maltese Association
> 
> 
> You asked for an opinion and it was given. As I said I don't know this kennel but based on their site, I wouldn't give them any business EVER. I would take a look at the breeder list and contact some of the breeders in your state. If they can't help you, I'm sure they can direct you to a breeder who can. Good luck!!


 
Bingo Stacy. :thumbsup:


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

muffinman said:


> allheart: I actually just got done reading that  Thanks for the link. I looked for the AMA breeders list but there's a fee that must be paid to view it... I may end up paying it if I don't have any luck elsewhere.
> 
> I did contact a hobby breeder, Sandy from Foley, Missouri who home raises her dogs She only breeds Maltese, won't let them go before they are 12 weeks, and her puppies are never in kennels. She only has one litter for sale and does not breed often and the pups come with a 2 year congenital health guarentee. All pictures are from inside the home and the pups look happy, not that it means much (they're not set shots with fancy backdrops, costumes, etc. they are pictures of the pups running around, having fun inside thehome)
> 
> As a disclaimer, I am not trying to bring bad press on Koenen... I do believe everyone's innocent until proven guilty and by all accounts, the owner seemed like a very genuine, caring person and the puppies do look happy from what pictures I have seen.


There's no fee to view the AMA list - try this link! There are breeders in WA
American Maltese Association

Also look here: USA BREEDER'S this list was comprised by a SM member/breeder (Tina) with input from other SM members.
And read this discusson we had last year - Breeders Health Guarantee


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

muffinman said:


> allheart: I actually just got done reading that  Thanks for the link. I looked for the AMA breeders list but there's a fee that must be paid to view it... I may end up paying it if I don't have any luck elsewhere.
> 
> *I did contact a hobby breeder, Sandy from Foley, Missouri who home raises her dogs* She only breeds Maltese, won't let them go before they are 12 weeks, and her puppies are never in kennels. She only has one litter for sale and does not breed often and the pups come with a 2 year congenital health guarentee. All pictures are from inside the home and the pups look happy, not that it means much (they're not set shots with fancy backdrops, costumes, etc. they are pictures of the pups running around, having fun inside thehome)
> 
> As a disclaimer, I am not trying to bring bad press on Koenen... I do believe everyone's innocent until proven guilty and by all accounts, the owner seemed like a very genuine, caring person and the puppies do look happy from what pictures I have seen.





Tina said:


> Some states require that no matter how many animals you have you have to have a USDA license. It does not mean that they are a "puppy mill". To find out which state does this requires quite a bit of research. I do know Kansas is not one. If you breed in Kansas at all, you are required to be licensed by the state.
> In Iowa, there is Marty Klabunde in Honey Creek is a good Maltese breeder. Her kennel name is Cedarwood. Email for her phone number.


Tina, this is in your part of the country, do you know of this breeder?
BTW, I cannot find anything about Showme Maltese in MO from your list on the web.


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Starsmom said:


> Tina, this is in your part of the country, do you know of this breeder?
> BTW, I cannot find anything about Showme Maltese in MO from your list on the web.


Starsmom, you are awesome, thanks for the AMA list - I clicked on a link to the old 2009 one in another thread (which was broken).

I saw pictures of the mom of the puppy Sandy is selling, she looks clean, healthy and everyone's inside the house. She is dual registered via AKC/APRI and she owns the sire (APRI). I have one other alternative (no longer considering Koenen Kennels) and am starting to look for shelter pups / teens on petfinder.com as well


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

muffinman said:


> Starsmom, you are awesome, thanks for the AMA list - I clicked on a link to the old 2009 one in another thread (which was broken).
> 
> I saw pictures of the mom of the puppy Sandy is selling, she looks clean, healthy and everyone's inside the house. She is dual registered via AKC/APRI and she owns the sire (APRI). I have one other alternative (no longer considering Koenen Kennels) and am starting to look for shelter pups / teens on petfinder.com as well


I think looking at Petfinder is a great idea. The APRI registry makes me nervous - most reputable breeders do not register with an 'alternate' registry, they register with AKC. 

Did you check out the show breeders on the AMA list?


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

She has two sires, one is APRI, the other is AKC - the father of this litter is APRI however (the mother is AKC). She was open to sharing information and pictures about the parents (including several pictures of the mother with her pups). A couple of the pups are extra small and the breeder insisted on keeping them longer than 12-13 weeks to ensure they're safe to travel, which was nice to hear. 

Yes, I'm going to reach out to Hilite and Ron(?) but I'm not counting on them having puppies available right now and they may be a bit out of our price range.. but couldn't hurt to check and get their advice.

The problem with petfinder is that most of the dogs we were interested in are fostered at shelters that do not ship - our choices are limited by our geography at the moment, but I will definitely keep looking


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

You may want to check out information about APRI which I think stands for America's Pet Registry. Would you buy a APRI registered puppy? - Yahoo! Answers 

I would encourage you to check PetFinder as well and look for fluffs in your local area. There are way too many homeless pets to encourage back yard breeders to continue to add to the problem. I would also be hesitant about any breeders in Missouri as they have a large puppy mill reputation as well.

My Tessa is a rescue who was about a year old when I got her and she is the best dog you could ever ask for. Please give rescue some serious consideration.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

muffinman said:


> Starsmom, you are awesome, thanks for the AMA list - I clicked on a link to the old 2009 one in another thread (which was broken).
> 
> I saw pictures of the mom of the puppy Sandy is selling, she looks clean, healthy and everyone's inside the house. She is dual registered via AKC/APRI and she owns the sire (APRI). I have one other alternative (no longer considering Koenen Kennels) and am starting to look for shelter pups / teens on petfinder.com as well


Thanks - but I just don't know about awesome!



bellaratamaltese said:


> I think looking at Petfinder is a great idea. The APRI registry makes me nervous - most reputable breeders do not register with an 'alternate' registry, they register with AKC.
> 
> Did you check out the show breeders on the AMA list?


Please listen to what Stacy (bellaratamaltese) is telling you - she is one of the show/breeders here. Cristine (allheart) Posted the entire post MALTESE BREEDERS - How to find and evaluate - you seem to have forgotten one of the *RED FLAG* points: *> *Puppy is registered with a registry other than the AKC. Make sure you check the AKC suspension list, too. (See link below) Breeders will try to tell potential buyers all sorts of reasons why they have "chosen" to register their puppies with the alternative registries, when in reality they may have been suspended from the AKC. APRI is an alternative registry.The breeder you select should be *unquestionably reputable.* Everyone here is very helpful with guiding newbies in the right direction to find the right breeder - all you have to do is ask (and you are). Remember, the breeder you are talking to in MO is a sales person. She's going to be nice b/c she wants to sell you a pup. Bottom line: Do your homework. Care to share the name of this MO breeder?

Forgive me, but you seem to have a terminal case of "puppy fever". Please take your time, and listen to all the advice the others are giving. Don't rush into a puppy contract that could be detrimental to you pocket. There is a sub-forum here Rescue Maltese For Adoption look at this - ALL rescues from Northcentral Maltese Rescue, and American Maltese Association Rescue are fully vetted. All you have to provide is food and copious amounts of L:heart:VE! So don't count them out. These fluffs really need a home. All AMA rescue dogs are lised on www.petfinder.com, Northcentral Maltese Rescue dogs can be found at this link- http://malteserescue.homestead.com/

BTW, :Welcome 4:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Good post, Marsha!

To the OP, do you know what you are looking for, as far as a maltese? Bigger? Smaller? This is a good thread to 'browse' from
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/90439-where-did-your-dog-come.html Plus it's just a fun thread to browse through!

It seems like you're doing your puppy searching on sites like Puppyfind. You will be hard pressed to find a truly reputable breeder on puppyfind, although there are some that advertise on there. BUT they are few and far between and it can be difficult to weed out the good/bad.

For a nicely bred puppy, expect to pay at least $1000 (for a male) This isnt' the time to bargain shop. Breeders who own APRI registered dogs as part of their breeding program are never going to be truly 'reputable' and you'll be taking your chances there, regardless of how nice and helpful they are.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

bellaratamaltese said:


> For a nicely bred puppy, expect to pay at least $1000 (for a male) This isnt' the time to bargain shop. Breeders who own APRI registered dogs as part of their breeding program are never going to be truly 'reputable' and you'll be taking your chances there, regardless of how nice and helpful they are.



The cost of a puppy, no matter what it is, is a small amount compared to what you will spend on him over his lifetime. A "bargain" puppy usually ends up being no bargain in the long run. You can spend a fortune in vet bills trying to treat the genetic conditions they often inherit. 

You have been given great advice. Save your money so you can afford to get a puppy from a reputable breeder.


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Understood, $1000 is reasonable and I'm willing to pay that but alot of the show breeder pups are listed for $2000+ 

We're looking heavily into petfinder and scouring the local ads for a rescue maltese.. however, our search is limited by the fact that we are looking for a puppy. We have a healthy, 9 year old Yorkie adopted several years ago but missed out on her puppy stage - it's something we want to experience at least once.

..and yes, while we may have puppy fever (partially attributed to the above reason), I wouldn't say it's *terminal*... as we have already passed up 7-8 puppies that we really liked (including the one from Koenen). It's tough.

Again, thanks for all the advice, we note them all.

Update: We are also checking out a local puppy from a hobby breeder, both parents on-site, home raised and everyone's AKC-registered. Looking forward to seeing them in person.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

muffinman said:


> Understood, $1000 is reasonable and I'm willing to pay that but alot of the show breeder pups are listed for $2000+
> 
> We're looking heavily into petfinder and scouring the local ads for a rescue maltese.. however, our search is limited by the fact that we are looking for a puppy. We have a healthy, 9 year old Yorkie adopted several years ago but missed out on her puppy stage - it's something we want to experience at least once.
> 
> ...


We've had people post on here before like you are posting ... going from one bad breeder to another ... it usually doesn't end well. This "hobby breeder" ... does she show? That is the first place to start .. if the breeder doesn't show then she is using her Malts to earn some extra money or to make a living. Most all of us here would not recommend such a breeder.

BTW, "Both parents on site" is no big deal and not in any way indicative of a good breeder.


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

k/c mom said:


> We've had people post on here before like you are posting ... going from one bad breeder to another ... it usually doesn't end well. This "hobby breeder" ... does she show? That is the first place to start .. if the breeder doesn't show then she is using her Malts to earn some extra money or to make a living. Most all of us here would not recommend such a breeder.
> 
> BTW, "Both parents on site" is no big deal and not in any way indicative of a good breeder.


Never said she was  ..but it's certaintly nice to see where the puppies are coming from. I'll be able to check out both of their pedigrees / see their records, watch them interact and see their living conditions. I'm going to talk to her later this afternoon so I'll be sure to ask whether she shows any of her dogs. I'm also going to be working with her vet to schedule a bile test prior to purchase as well.

To the contrary, most people I know, outside of the educated YorkieTalk and SpoiledMaltese community, don't purchase $2000+puppies from show breeders and the vast majority of them have very happy, healthy, beautiful puppies (purchased from local hobby breeders). Just an opinion, but I think it's bit of an exageration to say that most of these stories "don't end up well". In fact, just on this forum alone, there's more than a few members who've purchased from hobby breeders or worse (puppy mills) but still have wonderful, healthy companions.

It's a (calculated) risk/reward thing.. I'm sure everyone would love to drop $2000 on an amazing companion dog bred by a winning show breeder with 30+ years of experience, but money does matter. 

There's always risk for a heartbreak, *but as long as I'm confident that I'm not purchasing from a puppy mill, nor from breeders who neglect their dogs*, the puppies are healthy and I feel comfortable with them, that's the $ to risk tradeoff I'm willing to accept responsibility for.

At the very least, you guys have taught me to not purchase a puppy online unless it's from a very, very reputable show breeder or a rescue shelter. I will take that part of the lesson to heart and stick with locals, even if I have to pay a little more.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

muffinman said:


> Understood, $1000 is reasonable and I'm willing to pay that but alot of the show breeder pups are listed for $2000+
> 
> We're looking heavily into petfinder and scouring the local ads for a rescue maltese.. however, our search is limited by the fact that we are looking for a puppy. We have a healthy, 9 year old Yorkie adopted several years ago but missed out on her puppy stage - it's something we want to experience at least once.
> 
> ...





k/c mom said:


> We've had people post on here before like you are posting ... going from one bad breeder to another ... it usually doesn't end well. This "hobby breeder" ... does she show? That is the first place to start .. if the breeder doesn't show then she is using her Malts to earn some extra money or to make a living. Most all of us here would not recommend such a breeder.
> 
> BTW, "Both parents on site" is no big deal and not in any way indicative of a good breeder.


I understand the your desire for a puppy. _Take your time_ to find the right breeder, and puppy. It can be a mine field out there when looking for that right breeder. We don't want you to misstep, we have nothing to gain, we just want you to have a healthy puppy, who will give you many, many years of companionship.

Just because the litter is AKC registered doesn't mean the breeder is reputable. As Steph (k/c mom) stated, does this breeder show, another question to ask is: Do you do DNA testing, is there a spay/neuter agreement? If ANY of the answers to these 3 questions is "No", OR the answer is skirted around, run don't walk away. There is a term for a breeder like this - BYB: Backyard Breeder - as Steph said someone making money off of her dogs. :yucky::angry:


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Starsmom said:


> I understand the your desire for a puppy. _Take your time_ to find the right breeder, and puppy. It can be a mine field out there when looking for that right breeder. We don't want you to misstep, we have nothing to gain, we just want you to have a healthy puppy, who will give you many, many years of companionship.
> 
> Just because the litter is AKC registered doesn't mean the breeder is reputable. As Steph (k/c mom) stated, does this breeder show, another question to ask is: Do you do DNA testing, is there a spay/neuter agreement? If ANY of the answers to these 3 questions is "No", OR the answer is skirted around, run don't walk away. There is a term for a breeder like this - BYB: Backyard Breeder - as Steph said someone making money off of her dogs. :yucky::angry:


I'll definitely add those to the list of my questions when I call / visit their home to see the dogs this weekend. I don't plan on picking them up until next week so will be leaving the wallet at home, for sure  Thanks much.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

muffinman said:


> Never said she was  ..but it's certaintly nice to see where the puppies are coming from. I'll be able to check out both of their pedigrees / see their records, watch them interact and see their living conditions. I'm going to talk to her later this afternoon so I'll be sure to ask whether she shows any of her dogs. *I'm also going to be working with her vet to schedule a bile test prior to purchase as well.*
> 
> To the contrary, most people I know, outside of the educated YorkieTalk and SpoiledMaltese community, don't purchase $2000+puppies from show breeders and the vast majority of them have very happy, healthy, beautiful puppies (purchased from local hobby breeders). Just an opinion, but I think it's bit of an exageration to say that most of these stories "don't end up well". In fact, just on this forum alone, there's more than a few members who've purchased from hobby breeders or worse (puppy mills) but still have wonderful, healthy companions.
> 
> ...


I think bile acid test should NOT be done before 6 mo of age. To go through her vet would be considered a conflict of interest (the vets interest). Aside from the first sentence in the last paragraph in the post above, I don't believe you heard anything! :smilie_tischkante:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Just to quickly clarify 2 issues (I haven't lived in the US for 37 yrs. so I may be wrong on what happens there today but I do believe. . .

There are a # of breeders who do BAT at 12 weeks before the puppy is released.
DNA is normally done to determine parentage---not health issues for maltese.
IF I have misspoken please correct me!


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Starsmom said:


> I think bile acid test should NOT be done before 6 mo of age. To go through her vet would be considered a conflict of interest (the vets interest). Aside from the first sentence in the last paragraph in the post above, I don't believe you heard anything! :smilie_tischkante:


Sorry, I'm confused - I've been advised on this site to never buy a Maltese puppy without having the bile test performed... unless all of these people are buying puppies older than 6 months...? There are vets here who will perform the test on puppies at 12-16 wks of age.

Noted about the conflict of interest; I can always find another vet or ask the breeder to do it for me and provide me with the results.

We're all cut from a different mold with different tolerances, and I'm not disagreeing with anything the others are saying - just pointing out the whole "OMG if you don't buy your puppy from a championship show breeder for $2000, your puppy is doomed and you support puppy mills" attitude that's overzealous at times in this community MAY not always be correct. 

I'm somewhere in between...puppy mills and neglected dogs = a big no-no. Hobby breeders? I don't mind as long as the pups are healthy, the dogs are well loved and taken care of. Not everyone is a saint, selling puppies at a loss for the betterment of the breed... doesn't mean they're horrible people, selling horrible dogs. Capitalism brings out the worst in some people, for sure, but it's not always a bad thing.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

My sweet Ellie came from a nice local women in Texas, house was clean, dogs well cared for. Ellie was everything she told me, loving, playful and sweet. She died at 5 from liver disease, if I had not had a blood panel before her spay I would never have known she was sick. The nice lady in Texas would not return my calls, you would think she would want to know all the problems my Ellie had, not only LD, IBD, bad knee's grade 3 and 4 and Pancreatic Insufficiency. If people would stop buying from hobbie BYB breeders the demand would go and we would not have so many dogs in shelters and on Petfinder.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

Try contacting Tina - the same Tina who responded to this thread. She is a hobby/show breeder. HOME is her site - take a look see.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

You seem determined to buy your puppy from a backyard breeder in spite of all the great advice you've been given. Some people just have to learn firsthand how risky getting a puppy from a backyard breeder can be.

Cathy shared her tragic story of her beautiful Elly. When she was ready for another Maltese after Elly died, she got Mercedes from a show breeder.

One of our older members told her heartbreaking story of her Massimo who came from a backyard breeder.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/56-breeders/86154-did-i-purchase-my-puppy-byb.html#post1444352

When Carrie was ready for her next Maltese, she got her from a show breeder.

Here is a good comparison between backyard breeders and responsible breeders:

Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder

I assume you want a Maltese because you fell in love with the way they look. If you get a Maltese from a backyard breeder you may be very surprised how far from the standard he grows up to be. 

Maltese Show Dog Versus Maltese Pet.....What is the difference?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

muffinman said:


> Sorry, I'm confused - I've been advised on this site to never buy a Maltese puppy without having the bile test performed... unless all of these people are buying puppies older than 6 months...? There are vets here who will perform the test on puppies at 12-16 wks of age.
> 
> Noted about the conflict of interest; I can always find another vet or ask the breeder to do it for me and provide me with the results.
> 
> ...


 
This community is opting for the show breeders after much studying and research as well as stories from those who made mistakes before them. We also have plenty of people on here who went the other way (BYB or pet shop) and LEARNED....thus not doing it again. The difference in show breeders is they study pedigrees and do their level best to breed the proper dogs to one another to produce genetically healthy dogs as well as being as close to the standard as possible. THIS is what you are paying 2-3K for. Any breeder can have a clean home and raise the pups in the kitchen. That doesn't mean for one minute they "get it". They, most likely will not know most of the dogs in their pedigrees. I like the breeders who know five gens and even farther back. That means they've done their homework, talked to other breeders and acquired as much info on those lines to know if it is a good match/blend for their dogs. It is WORTH the price. I want a dog that is going to live a long healthy life. I want one that adheres closely to the standard. I want one with the personality traits of that breed and I want one I am NOT apt to spend a fortune in vet bills. If you would rather go with a byb or a pet shop, try rescue first. Those dogs have been cared for and evaluated for proper homes and will cost you very little initially.


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

I meant no offense to anyone, and it seems as if I've touched a nerve with some people by suggesting that not all dogs from non-showing breeders are bad - it's just a reflection of my nature; I'm one to believe the world isn't black and white... I'm in the tax accounting profession so my world revolves around operating in the "gray" areas  

Nor am I determined to go out and buy the first puppy I see.. just came in here to get educated but also QUESTION what I'm told... again, not in my nature to take all advice blindly. I do like it here and believe everyone here has the absolute best of intentions; I apologize if I rubbed anyone the wrong way. I'd also appreciate it if I wasn't pigeon-holed as a puppy mill supporter or someone who doesn't care; haven't actually committed to or done anything yet 

Thanks all

UPDATE: Called the local hobby breeder, didn't like the answers I heard based on my questions and some of the questions you guys suggested I ask, so no longer considering that puppy.

Will email Tina to see if we'd be a good fit for her puppies.

Will be reaching out to other show breeders and continue looking through Petfinder and local shelters for rescue pups as well.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Muffinman - I hope you realize that people are very passionate here about healthy Matlese and that's where all the advice comes from. I am happy you are sticking around here to learn. I applaud that you adopted your other dog.:aktion033: I know that AMA on the west coast had a lot of puppies a few months ago but they may all be gone by now.
Personally I didn't have a lot of money but was able to get my Tyler from a breeder who shows constantly and he happened to have been at a reduced rate - below $2000 - because he had a medical issue that I needed to take care of - undescended testicles. He's a beauty, a great temperament and I think much of that comes from how he was raised. His half sister is on the show circuit right now. :wub: But most important, we went to the vet yesterday and got a GREAT report. He's in terrific shape. Now a dog can have health issues from anyone but I wanted to stack the deck in my favor by going to the right place first. My neighbor bought a Havenese who is adorable but from a BYB. I talked until I was blue in the face about a reputable breeder but this BYB sold her a bill of goods (and a pup). She's shocked that the pup now has an extreme underbite. Something I saw immediately, but her "breeder" was explaining it away and saying it wasn't an underbite. Her dog's adorable but the bite is so far off that I can't imagine she won't have issues. And she paid plenty of money for the pup and paid plenty to a dog orthodontist as well to check her out. 
So what I'm saying is, you will do what you will do. We have many members here who got their Maltese from other than reputable breeders and they're all welcome. We would just rather see a dog adopted from a shelter or rescue organization or bought from a reputable breeder than see heartbreak down the line and the perpetuation of dogs ending up in risk of being put to sleep. BYB's will dump dogs that they can't sell. Buyer beware and I hope you stay around once you have your new fluff. This is a great place to learn.


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Snowbody said:


> Muffinman - I hope you realize that people are very passionate here about healthy Matlese and that's where all the advice comes from. I am happy you are sticking around here to learn. I applaud that you adopted your other dog.:aktion033: I know that AMA on the west coast had a lot of puppies a few months ago but they may all be gone by now.
> Personally I didn't have a lot of money but was able to get my Tyler from a breeder who shows constantly and he happened to have been at a reduced rate - below $2000 - because he had a medical issue that I needed to take care of - undescended testicles. He's a beauty, a great temperament and I think much of that comes from how he was raised. His half sister is on the show circuit right now. :wub: But most important, we went to the vet yesterday and got a GREAT report. He's in terrific shape. Now a dog can have health issues from anyone but I wanted to stack the deck in my favor by going to the right place first. My neighbor bought a Havenese who is adorable but from a BYB. I talked until I was blue in the face about a reputable breeder but this BYB sold her a bill of goods (and a pup). She's shocked that the pup now has an extreme underbite. Something I saw immediately, but her "breeder" was explaining it away and saying it wasn't an underbite. Her dog's adorable but the bite is so far off that I can't imagine she won't have issues. And she paid plenty of money for the pup and paid plenty to a dog orthodontist as well to check her out.
> So what I'm saying is, you will do what you will do. We have many members here who got their Maltese from other than reputable breeders and they're all welcome. We would just rather see a dog adopted from a shelter or rescue organization or bought from a reputable breeder than see heartbreak down the line and the perpetuation of dogs ending up in risk of being put to sleep. BYB's will dump dogs that they can't sell. Buyer beware and I hope you stay around once you have your new fluff. This is a great place to learn.


Thanks for sharing your neighbor's experience - we've had good luck with adoptions... had a cat we adopted from our local humane society as well until we had to give her away (my kid brother developed allergic reactions to her). Luckily, our neighbor a block down was a huge cat lover and gladly adopted her.. worked out since we were able to visit often. His allergic reactions to fur is another reason we are considering Maltese and Yorkies (not just based on their looks, as another member suggested).

Since I've started this thread, I've walked away from non-showing online breeders completely, and have walked away from a local hobby breeder based on the questions I've been advised to ask... I'm not the best listener, but I try


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

muffinman said:


> Thanks for sharing your neighbor's experience - we've had good luck with adoptions... had a cat we adopted from our local humane society as well until we had to give her away (my kid brother developed allergic reactions to her). Luckily, our neighbor a block down was a huge cat lover and gladly adopted her.. worked out since we were able to visit often. His allergic reactions to fur is another reason we are considering Maltese and Yorkies (not just based on their looks, as another member suggested).
> 
> Since I've started this thread, I've walked away from non-showing online breeders completely, and have walked away from a local hobby breeder based on the questions I've been advised to ask... I'm not the best listener, but I try


What area of the country are you in? Maybe we could steer you towards a rescue since you obviously believe in adopting pets.

Petfinder isn't the best place to look for rescues as most younger pets are adopted before they are even posted on Petfinder. The best thing to do is find a rescue (either local or a national rescue like Northcentral Maltese who has fosters all over the country), put in an application and get approved. Then when the perfect Maltese for your family comes in, you will be notified.

I wanted to add that there is no such thing as a hypoallergenic dog. Maltese and Yorkies have hair, not fur, and no undercoat so they are less likely to trigger an allergic reaction, but it does happen.

You mentioned a kid brother. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? You sound very mature!


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

My first Maltese came from a nice lady who live in a nice house. She was a BYB. I spent thousands of dollars (and no, I am not exaggerating) on the genetic problems he inherited although he seemed very healthy, at first. He had severe food allergies, inflammatory bowel disease, and later developed pancreatitis. He spent a week in the hospital hooked up to an IV, and almost died. Then he developed liver disease. I had to have him put down because of his pain and suffering at the age of 10. It's a miracle he made it to that age but most of his life he was sick and got worse as he got older. Would you want that for your Maltese? Yes I spent a "pretty penny" for my two girls who came from a show breeder, and it was worth it. :SM Rocks!: Hope you'll stay with us!:blush:


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## muffinman (Oct 20, 2010)

Ladysmom - He's now 21, a member of the US Air Force and is enrolled in medical school.. so yeah, no longer a child but he'll always be a "kid brother" to me. I'm 24 and very immature, but thanks for the kind words

..and thanks for the rescue leads, maybe I'll give them a call and see if they have any more dogs available in the WA area. Hopefully, they'll overlook the fact that I'm not 25 just yet.


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

I met Tina in Atlanta she is very nice. She has beautiful dogs.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

muffinman said:


> I meant no offense to anyone, and it seems as if I've touched a nerve with some people by suggesting that not all dogs from non-showing breeders are bad - it's just a reflection of my nature; I'm one to believe the world isn't black and white... I'm in the tax accounting profession so my world revolves around operating in the "gray" areas
> 
> Nor am I determined to go out and buy the first puppy I see.. just came in here to get educated but also QUESTION what I'm told... again, not in my nature to take all advice blindly. I do like it here and believe everyone here has the absolute best of intentions; I apologize if I rubbed anyone the wrong way. I'd also appreciate it if I wasn't pigeon-holed as a puppy mill supporter or someone who doesn't care; haven't actually committed to or done anything yet
> 
> ...


Keep in mind the shelters will have the dogs spayed/neutered and up to date on shots, but that is by no means fully vetted which is what you get when you adopt from one of the two aforementioned Maltese Rescues.



muffinman said:


> Thanks for sharing your neighbor's experience - we've had good luck with adoptions... had a cat we adopted from our local humane society as well until we had to give her away (my kid brother developed allergic reactions to her). Luckily, our neighbor a block down was a huge cat lover and gladly adopted her.. worked out since we were able to visit often. His allergic reactions to fur is another reason we are considering Maltese and Yorkies (not just based on their looks, as another member suggested).
> 
> Since I've started this thread, I've walked away from non-showing online breeders completely, and have walked away from a local hobby breeder based on the questions I've been advised to ask... I'm not the best listener, but I try


And you haven't left us either! 



muffinman said:


> Ladysmom - He's now 21, a member of the US Air Force and is enrolled in medical school.. so yeah, no longer a child but he'll always be a "kid brother" to me. I'm 24 and very immature, but thanks for the kind words
> 
> ..and thanks for the rescue leads, maybe I'll give them a call and see if they have any more dogs available in the WA area. Hopefully, they'll overlook the fact that I'm not 25 just yet.


Here's a paragraph form the Northcentral Maltese Rescue site:

*We now have 60 dogs in our rescue, only 20 of which are listed on our Available Dogs page. New dogs *

*are coming in all the time. If you are interested in adopting, please call Mary Palmer at 262-633-9371 to learn about the dogs not listed.*

From speaking with Edie Gobie - American Maltese Assoc. Rescue, I know they have more dogs in rescue, and could use more foster homes so they could take in more rescues. Could you foster?
 
Maybe one of these fluffs can be yours! :yes: Keep us posted as to your "finds".


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## lisaj1354 (Aug 9, 2010)

I got Pepper from a rescue based in GA. They transported him from his foster mom in Mass to me in NJ.

I wasn't looking for a Maltese, but now I have one and I've never been happier.

He is a sweet, loving little guy who has some issues (white shaker syndrome) plus he's afraid of the rain and the dark. But to the best of my knowledge (and that of my vet), he's healthy, happy and should live a good long time.

Good luck in your search.


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## whitefurbabys (Oct 24, 2011)

muffinman said:


> Long time lurker, first time poster - wonderful community here.
> 
> Has anyone ever dealt with Koenen Kennels?
> 
> ...


I have delt with Keonen Kennels Many Many times! They are fantastic and I wouldn't go any place else. My dog(s) are beautiful, friendly, and healthy. I live in NH and pay the extra because they are so worth it!


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