# Breeder Back Pups



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

At the risk of going off tangent in another thread, I thought I would give a little information on breeder back pups, mentioned by Kissi's Mom in the other thread. This is FYI. 

There is a growing way of selling dogs now. It is really big in some breeds such as Scotties and Westies. When I had the Westie special out showing, I learned a lot about this. Sometime it meant giving more than one pup back. It is also becoming common with Maltese breeders. I do not do it, and have no plans to in the future. It reminds me of the pyramid scheme. It works like this.

The breeder sells the pup out with full registration. Most times, in the show circles, the contract says the dog must be shown and finished before breeding, but not always. The original owner stays on the papers as co-owner until the dog completes its championship. In the case of a female, this is great because the pup cannot be bred and have a litter registered without both owners signing the registration form. In the breeder back situation, the buyer not only pays for the dog, but is required to give a pup back from the first litter. Some of the Westie folks were requiring two pups back or one from the first two litters. I've heard of Scottie people who require the whole first litter back to the breeder. My friend is a Scottie breeder, and she said some have gotten where they have more "breeder back" pups than they do of their own. 
How would this work for Maltese? Well, if a breeder sold five dogs out in a year with this stipulation, then they would receive five pups back from those they originally sold. So, if a breeder of Maltese had those five and five of her own for sale, this could grow with time. I know of one person who bought a Maltese a couple months ago who had the option of paying $1000 more for the pup up front to avoid the breeder back pup. The person she bought from had only finished their first dog two or three years ago and isn't a "top" or well known breeder. 

So, if a person buys a breeder back pup, the parents will not be onsight, and the owner of the litter will not be the one you are dealing with when you go to make an arrangement to buy the pup.


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

WOW! I had never heard of this. Thank you for posting aboug it.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Oh, how interesting. I had never heard of this ever before. So, Faye, the original breeder does not have any say so in who the Malt is bred to? Is that correct?


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Oh, how interesting. I had never heard of this ever before. So, Faye, the original breeder does not have any say so in who the Malt is bred to? Is that correct?[/B]



Actually, it is usually in the contract that the original breeder selects or approves the stud for the breeding.


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## buddy (May 9, 2006)

Very interesting....and good information.
Thank you for posting it.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Wow! I have neevr heard of that either. The more I learn, the more I realize how truly "buyer beware" it is when it comes to buying a Maltese!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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Oh, that's good!! So, it doesn't sound like there is a negative really.... just that the new owner has to handle obtaining the championship, mating and birthing. ??


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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There is the good and the bad in any of this. I am pretty sure that one of the dogs shown at Westminister last year or the year before was a buyer back pup. The whole things just depends on the ethics of the breeder and what their original intent is. I'll give you a negative example I learned from my friend, the Scottie breeder.
There is a well known Scottie breeder with many champions who has placed a female with a couple of women in this breeder back situation. She has not checked out the home life of these women, nor the number of dogs they have in their possession. Her house is infested with fleas. She kept a dog once for my friend, and the dog was in horrible shape when it was returned. She also has some type large breed hunting type dogs living in the home, as well as a standard poodle. She also does feral cat rescue, and has a number of these in the home. Yet, this Scottie is now living there with two other Scotties and all the other dogs. She is to be shown and bred, and the pups from the first litter are to be returned to the origianl breeder. Now, would you want a pup raised in this type home environment?


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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Oh, that's good!! So, it doesn't sound like there is a negative really.... just that the new owner has to handle obtaining the championship, mating and birthing. ??
[/B][/QUOTE]


There is the good and the bad in any of this. I am pretty sure that one of the dogs shown at Westminister last year or the year before was a buyer back pup. The whole things just depends on the ethics of the breeder and what their original intent is. I'll give you a negative example I learned from my friend, the Scottie breeder.
There is a well known Scottie breeder with many champions who has placed a female with a couple of women in this breeder back situation. She has not checked out the home life of these women, nor the number of dogs they have in their possession. Her house is infested with fleas. She kept a dog once for my friend, and the dog was in horrible shape when it was returned. She also has some type large breed hunting type dogs living in the home, as well as a standard poodle. She also does feral cat rescue, and has a number of these in the home. Yet, this Scottie is now living there with two other Scotties and all the other dogs. She is to be shown and bred, and the pups from the first litter are to be returned to the origianl breeder. Now, would you want a pup raised in this type home environment?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yikes!! I see what you mean!!


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Hope was a "puppy back" to Ta-Jon. I believe that she is the positive side of things. The lady that co-owns the mother with Tammy is a friend and they picked the father together. Hope's mother turned away from the pups and the lady literally hand raised both pups. Tammy had pick of the litter and chose Hope, planning to show her. Due to her smallish size, not in weight but in stature, Tammy did not want to show her as she did not feel that she would be able to free-whelp and that is how she came to be offered for sale at the age of 6 months. She had lived at Tammy's for several months before she was offered for sale to me. I have never felt that this was a negative and Tammy was upfront and explained it to me fully and I never hesitated in my interest in Hope.......


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I think this is a fairly common practice in the show world. I know that if we decided against the pup our breeder had for us, she was going to offer us a pup from another litter she "co-owned". It turned out we loved our dog so we didn't go that route. But I would not have hesitated to do it based on our breeder's recommendation.


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

What's to keep the person who is to pay back from lying about how many were in the litter at birth to the original breeder? Does the original breeder just keep waiting until they have been paid back in pups no matter how many breedings it might take? 

If the original breeder is to get "pick of the litter" what keeps the new owner from hiding the best pup for themself? I guess the registration paperwork protects that?

Just throwin' questions out there and trying to understand both sides of this concept in contracts.... as it seems fairly convoluted.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Actually, show breeders have done this for many years. Sometimes it works in the favor of the

breeder and sometimes not. Sometimes that pup doesn't wind up having pups for whatever

reason and the breeder has lost that alternative. 

I can see pros and cons to this arrangement. I got my start in maltese by having a pup "given"

to me to finish to his championship with the stipulation the breeder could use him for stud

whenever she wished. Since we lived near one another this presented no problem or hardship

and I trusted her completely.

Often breeders become good friends over the years and do these type of deals rather than ask

for big $$$$. Some breeders will do it to help give a novice their start in the showring. There

is an up side if both parties are trustworthy and live up to their part.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> What's to keep the person who is to pay back from lying about how many were in the litter at birth to the original breeder? Does the original breeder just keep waiting until they have been paid back in pups no matter how many breedings it might take?
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> If the original breeder is to get "pick of the litter" what keeps the new owner from hiding the best pup for themself? I guess the registration paperwork protects that?
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You can register the litter with how ever many you want to register. But, if you plan on breeding that dog or showing that dog you cannot hide that puppy, it has to be registered. Yes, the breeder has to wait until the puppies can be paid back. Maltese do not for the most part have large litters. Let's say its a girl to be paid back and all you have is boys in the litter? 
Sometimes the pick of the litter doesn't always end up being the best in the litter. They take their pick at 3 to 4 months old. All sorts of things can change. There isn't a perfect dog. 
It's very complicated. Like CutecosyNToy has stated in her post. It all comes down to the relationship between every one involved. Their have been good friends made and new enemies attained. The biggest thing to be aware of is the "he said, she said" gossip that can get started.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

I always wondered how all that worked, now I know. Very interesting!


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Actually, show breeders have done this for many years. Sometimes it works in the favor of the
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> breeder and sometimes not. Sometimes that pup doesn't wind up having pups for whatever
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i'd prefer not to have to give a puppy back just because I know I will have trouble letting any of the little babies go, but I definitely do not have a problem with it. 

A whole litter though?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

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I can undstand that BUT what if you wanted a pup out of a great dog (s) and this was the only way to get one ..or maybe you'd have to pay way more than you could invest monetarily to get one or for a stud service? What if the breeder was concerned about making sure the sire's progeny carry on so a puppy back would give her an option? There are many reasons for these types of deals. Remember, a litter can constitute two pups in the maltese breed. Occasionally, one is considered a litter. It's tough to have one pup and have to give it up BUT often the breeder will let you keep that ONE if you have another litter so they can collect their agreed upon pup(s).


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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I think there is a big difference in wanting the pup back to carry on the line than in those who are putting dogs out just to breed to get pups back for sale, as I mentioned in the example with the Scottie breeder. I can well understand the option you mentioned, Brit. Of course the breeder can't guarantee that the pup will turn out to be what they want to keep, and, as in Susan's case with Hope, she might be sold as a pet.


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I have read on this "puppy back" thing before. I am still not real sure I understand it completely... but it is nice to gain more knowledge about it ...so thanks to those who have taken time to explain.


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## ladypup (Oct 22, 2006)

this is actually a very common contract when you buy a show puppy 
co-ownership is something a lot of reputable breeders do in order to protect their lines.
this way they have control over the future breeding, and they receive credit for the show winning as well.
most of them also own half the litter (in larger breeds)
this is a good deal for an 'up-commer' in the show world, since the dog has the name of the reputable breeder on his papers and it is also a good guarantee to get a top show quality dog.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

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I can undstand that BUT what if you wanted a pup out of a great dog (s) and this was the only way to get one ..or maybe you'd have to pay way more than you could invest monetarily to get one or for a stud service? What if the breeder was concerned about making sure the sire's progeny carry on so a puppy back would give her an option? There are many reasons for these types of deals. Remember, a litter can constitute two pups in the maltese breed. Occasionally, one is considered a litter. It's tough to have one pup and have to give it up BUT often the breeder will let you keep that ONE if you have another litter so they can collect their agreed upon pup(s).
[/B][/QUOTE]

I think there is a big difference in wanting the pup back to carry on the line than in those who are putting dogs out just to breed to get pups back for sale, as I mentioned in the example with the Scottie breeder. I can well understand the option you mentioned, Brit. Of course the breeder can't guarantee that the pup will turn out to be what they want to keep, and, as in Susan's case with Hope, she might be sold as a pet. [/B][/QUOTE] 



Yes, you're absolutely right, Faye and that's why sometimes it doesn't work to the advantage of the breeder. It's very difficult to know if a pup is show or breeding quality at 3 months so if it turns out

not to be, all the breeder can do is sell it. That's why if a line is in danger of being ended they may opt for a litter or two pups. There are all different ways contracts can be done. The one important thing is for the new owner and the breeder to both know what's best for both of them and the dogs involved.


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## Kissi's Mom (Apr 21, 2006)

> At the risk of going off tangent in another thread, I thought I would give a little information on breeder back pups, mentioned by Kissi's Mom in the other thread. This is FYI.
> 
> There is a growing way of selling dogs now. It is really big in some breeds such as Scotties and Westies. When I had the Westie special out showing, I learned a lot about this. Sometime it meant giving more than one pup back. It is also becoming common with Maltese breeders. I do not do it, and have no plans to in the future. It reminds me of the pyramid scheme. It works like this.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for finally explaining this term in a way that my "feeble" brain can understand. I have worried about where Mia "really" came from every since I've had her. The breeder raised the litter because the mom refused to take care of them after a couple of weeks...that is how she was supposed to have ended up with the whole litter. I questioned this at the time and now I know that it is not uncommon so I can stop worrying. Mia definitely has a few issues, but she is very healthy. I actually bought Mia with full registration with the hopes of my daughter showing her, she has good pigment, large dark eyes and a beautiful coat but like I said she is big...6 1/2 month and 7 lbs (a very pudgy baby!) so I don't see a show career in her future!! 

Thanks again for the info.
Linda


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Don't give up showing her yet. She might settle out and stay around 7 lbs. I hang onto pups until at least a year to see if they can be shown or not. At 61/2 months she has a long way to finish out.


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