# Are you getting the swine flu shot?



## Matilda's mommy

I was listening to our news here and they reported 4 healthy adults have died from the swine flu this last week. I have been reading the pros and cons in getting the shot. So what are you thinking, are you getting the shot? Share with me how you feel about all this. I would like to know your age also. I am thinking about getting the shot when I can, but am concerned about the side affects.( A few weeks ago I was so ill the doctor thought I had the swine flu, but they never took the blood work. So now I will never know)


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## daisyg

I hope not Paula!!! :mellow: Can they check you anyhow again???

BTW I miss you so much and the girls!!


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## Missy&Maggie

I'm not planning on getting the swine flu vaccine, Paula. I'm 25, so just outside of the at risk age group. Personally, I'm not a fan of necessary vaccines. I've never had a seasonal flu shot in my life. With the swine flu vaccine, I just don't feel like enough testing was done prior to it's risk. Those are just my personal thoughts and opinions. Each of us has to do what's best for ourselves.


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## vjw

Yes, I'll be getting the H1N1 vaccine (shot) as soon as it's available for the public. I'm in the high risk group because I have asthma, but I'd get a vaccine anyway.

H1N1 is widespread in our area. I read in our local paper that there have been 146 "confirmed" cases in our city and they emphasized that this is only a small sample of the total cases of H1N1. 

The CDC updated their H1N1 site yesterday:

Link to the CDC's H1N1 site

Joy


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## aggiemom99

I have already gotten the regular flu shot. Last Wednesday, I went to the dr and while I was there I asked about the swine flu. He said for me he did not recommend. He has seen 25 year olds and younger...


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## Deborah

I have never ever gotten a shot for the flu and various other means the medical system has to treat us and to cause pain. I also have never had the fluWhen they get a shot that removes pain and makes me happy I will think about it.

The following is an excellent piece of advice for those of you still worrird.

Dear friends,

This is the best advice I have seen ever on preventing flu and colds. As a veteran public health epidemiologist, I am really pleased to see this emphasis on self-care over vaccine and other meds. 

May you have a healthy year!

love,
Deb


> Prevent Swine Flu - Good Advice!!!!
> 
> Dr. Vinay Goyal is an MBBS,DRM,DNB (Intensivist and Thyroid
> specialist) having clinical experience of over 20 years. He
> has worked in institutions like Hinduja Hospital , Bombay
> Hospital , Saifee Hospital , Tata Memorial etc.. Presently,
> he is heading our Nuclear Medicine Department and Thyroid
> clinic at Riddhivinayak Cardiac and Critical Centre, Malad
> (W).
> 
> The following message given by him and I feel it makes a
> lot of sense and is important for all to know
> 
> The only portals of entry are the nostrils and
> mouth/throat. In a global epidemic of this nature, it's
> almost impossible to avoid coming into contact with H1N1 in
> spite of all precautions. Contact with H1N1 is not so much
> of a problem as proliferation is. (Proliferation- the growth
> or production of cells by multiplication of parts)
> 
> While you are still healthy and not showing any symptoms of
> H1N1 infection, in order to prevent proliferation,
> aggravation of symptoms, and development of secondary
> infections, some very simple steps, though not fully
> highlighted in most official communications, can be
> practiced (instead of focusing on how to stock N95 or
> Tamiflu):
> 
> 1. Frequent hand-washing (well highlighted in all official
> communications).
> 
> 2. "Hands-off-the-face" approach. Resist all temptations to
> touch any part of face (unless you want to eat, bathe, or
> sleep).
> 
> 3. *Gargle twice a day with warm salt water (use Listerine
> if you don't trust salt). *H1N1 takes 2-3 days after initial
> infection in the throat/ nasal cavity to proliferate and
> show characteristic symptoms. Simple gargling prevents
> proliferation. In a way, gargling with salt water has the
> same effect on a healthy individual that Tamiflu has on an
> infected one. Don't underestimate this simple, inexpensive
> and powerful preventative method.
> 
> 4. Similar to 3 above, *clean your nostrils at least once
> every day with warm salt water.. *Not everybody may be
> good at Jala Neti or Sutra Neti (very good Yoga asanas to
> clean nasal cavities), but blowing the nose hard once a day
> and swabbing both nostrils with cotton buds dipped in warm
> salt water is very effective in bringing down viral
> population. 
> 
> 
> 5. *Boost your natural immunity with foods that are rich in
> Vitamin C (Amla and other citrus fruits). *If you have to
> supplement with Vitamin C tablets, make sure that it also
> has Zinc to boost absorption.
> 
> 6. *Drink as much of warm liquids (tea, coffee, etc) as you
> can. *Drinking warm liquids has the same effect as gargling,
> but in the reverse direction. They wash off proliferating
> viruses from the throat into the stomach where they cannot
> survive, proliferate or do any harm.
>

________________________________________


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## LJSquishy

I am 25 and will not be getting the H1N1 shot. I did talk to my doctor about it briefly, and she agreed with me that I am at such a low risk for it that it is unlikely to be an issue. I'm a housewife, so I'm not out of the house all that much. When I go grocery shopping, I always use the little sanitizing wipes on the shopping cart, and when I get home I wash my hands -- these are just normal things I do all of the time, not something I just started doing.

I would recommend the shot for younger children, older adults (60+) and the elderly...and of course anyone who has a weak immune system or other medical issues. This is just my opinion, so your doctor would know best.

What exactly are the side effects from getting the shot???


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## dwerten

No as i am doing a loan for a pathologist who is extremely sharp dr yin  he told me the most at risk are teenagers and pregnant females as teenagers immune systems are not fighting it off and probably why we keep hearing about high school kids getting this so he said if i do not have to worry as much about it since I do not have a teenager at home and not pregnant. He said the normal flu affects the elderly and the babies but not this flu so if the above applies to you pregnant and have teenagers at home it may be worth it getting the shot other wise he said should not be as much of a concern. He said the only reason to get the shot if you have teenagers at home is to protect them not necessarily you


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## dwerten

the younger and older only applies to regular flu not this flu see my last post as i checked this out with a pathologist as they study tissue and blood work and he said this strain is different than a regular flu it affects pregnant women and his wife is pregnant and teenagers as he said the babies and elderly are not getting this like the regular flu so the media is incorrect in quoting it like a regular flu as it is different and this is why we keep seeing high schools shutting down due to it 


QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Oct 18 2009, 01:07 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841098


> I am 25 and will not be getting the H1N1 shot. I did talk to my doctor about it briefly, and she agreed with me that I am at such a low risk for it that it is unlikely to be an issue. I'm a housewife, so I'm not out of the house all that much. When I go grocery shopping, I always use the little sanitizing wipes on the shopping cart, and when I get home I wash my hands -- these are just normal things I do all of the time, not something I just started doing.
> 
> I would recommend the shot for younger children, older adults (60+) and the elderly...and of course anyone who has a weak immune system or other medical issues. This is just my opinion, so your doctor would know best.
> 
> What exactly are the side effects from getting the shot???[/B]


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## Orla

Even though I am at high risk of getting swine flu I won't be getting the vaccine!!


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## I found nemo

I am getting myself and my children the Flu shot. I don't like this swine flu shot. I agree, more people die from the Flu per year than the Swine .
Just isn't something I want to get ..


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## triste

After consulting my personal doctor, my children's ped, and Molly's endocrinologist...we ALL will be getting the h1n1 vaccine. (yes, I call it h1n1...the "swine' portion of the title has really hurt our local farming communities...so i have gotten in the habit of not calling it swine). 

Molly is diabetic, Hannah and Kristen have asthma. Those three girls put us in the higher risk. Two of my four children are teenagers....with my third being 12. 

I have heard pros and cons...watched tons of morning shows where they talk about them....I just personally feel that the vaccine is as safe as any other we've had. It's a very personal choice and we all have to do what is best for our families..whatever the choice is.


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## I found nemo

QUOTE (Triste @ Oct 18 2009, 08:41 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841127


> After consulting my personal doctor, my children's ped, and Molly's endocrinologist...we ALL will be getting the h1n1 vaccine. (yes, I call it h1n1...the "swine' portion of the title has really hurt our local farming communities...so i have gotten in the habit of not calling it swine).
> 
> Molly is diabetic, Hannah and Kristen have asthma. Those three girls put us in the higher risk. Two of my four children are teenagers....with my third being 12.
> 
> I have heard pros and cons...watched tons of morning shows where they talk about them....I just personally feel that the vaccine is as safe as any other we've had. It's a very personal choice and we all have to do what is best for our families..whatever the choice is.[/B]


Totally agree. It is a personal choice , we do what we feel is best


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## The A Team

Whoops.... :behindsofa: ......I probably won't be getting the flu shot. I don't usually get sick, heck, after 10 years, my doctor still doesn't know who I am if I walk into his office. (I get my feelings hurt, but I guess that's a good thing anyway).

I have made a GYN appt though - that's something - because I haven't been to one in over 6 years. Thought it might be a good idea to get a mamogram....I always put everyone else first, especially my dogs. One time I did have pre-cancerous cells removed and was supposed to keep getting mamos every 6 months. Then I moved...my doctor was about 100 years old at that time, etc. I kept putting it off. :brownbag: ..dumb, I know.


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## Nikki's Mom

No. I don't do vaccines as I don't think that injecting squalene, *mercury, aborted fetuses, dog kidneys*, or other strange substances into my body will help its immune system in the long run. Around here we let our bodies fight bacteria/viruses using the immune system we were created with. We don't rely on chemical cocktails that damage our immune system. 

We'll take Vitamin D3 and Elderberry (Sambucol or Sambucus) syrup during fall/winter. 

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html


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## CeeCee's Mom

Yes, if they have the shot form, I will take the H1N1. I would not take the intranasal because of the live viris. I want some sort of immunity because I believe that IF it combines with a deadly form of bird flu, I will have some sort of immunity. I have faithfully taken the flu shot for years except for the one year when you could not get it. I have not had the flu since I was a young teenager. When my sister Anna was in the hospital having her gallbladder taken out recently, she is the one with Congestive Heart Failure. The last thing they did before releasing her was to give her the regular flu shot. 

This is the truth, online in our local newspaper, they have a forum and someone here said, do not take the H1N1 shot because the government was trying to sterilze everyone and this was the route they were taking. Well, that leaves me out anyway, I am past the baby making stage!!! LOL!!!! Just a little laugh to lighten up the day~~~~ :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:


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## Ladysmom

I am too old to get the swine flu shot so I don't have to worry about making the decision! :biggrin: 

Seriously, the high risk group is people under 25, pregnant woman, health care workers, etc. I think they are struggling just to produce enough vaccine to offer to that group. I wouldn't be able to get the vaccine even if I wanted to.

I do get the regular flu shot every year and have never had a problem ..... or the flu.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Oct 18 2009, 10:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841148


> I am too old to get the swine flu shot so I don't have to worry about making the decision! :biggrin:
> 
> Seriously, the high risk group is people under 25, pregnant woman, health care workers, etc. I think they are struggling just to produce enough vaccine to offer to that group. I wouldn't be able to get the vaccine even if I wanted to.
> 
> I do get the regular flu shot every year and have never had a problem ..... or the flu.[/B]


Marj, I wasn't going to get the H1N1 flu shot anyway but are you saying that they won't give it to people above a certain age?


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## momtoboo

I'm going to get it,if it becomes available to me. I'm more afraid of the flu than the vaccine. I suspect I already had the H1N1,but my doctor didn't test me,so now I'll never know. But I certainly don't ever want that again,it was horrid.


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## Nikki's Mom

I never take the shot and I never get the flu. I don't have seasonal allergies, or other allergies. I rarely get a cold. I have auto immune disorders, chemical sensitivity, and gluten intolerance. But viruses/bacteria rarely affect me. 

Most of us were born with bodies that have a great immune system. 

Why not try to keep your immune system in good shape by taking care of your body and using Vitamin D and other immune boosters, instead of getting injected with immune system destroyers just to ward off a virus? If may prevent the flu, but have you ever thought about what other things might happen to your body from those chemical additives years from now? Like allergies, infections, auto immune disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, arthritis, cancers, etc.? 

To me, taking shots with those additives instead of giving your immune system a lifelong boost seems opposite of what we should do? 

Well, maybe all of you are the normal ones, and I'm the weirdo? I was always into holistic health, but more than once I let people talk me into taking vaccinations, and I regret that. Maybe that's why I do research and tell others to avoid them. 

I guess I just believe that our bodies were created (by God) with pretty much everything we need to fight off germs/viruses, and injecting those chemicals into the body can't possibly be harmless as they claim. Maybe it won't affect someone today, but maybe years from now, and the connections will never be made.

Everyone has to make their own choices in a free society and then they have to live with the consequences of their choices.


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## jodublin

From tomorrow the flu shot is available in ireland ,first it will be given' to those in most need '..
i hate doctor's ,so i dont plan to get it :smheat:


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## beckinwolf

While I still have a choice in the matter, I choose not to get either flu vaccine. I've been doing way too much research into the long-term effects of the additives. I haven't had the flu since I was a kid anyway. I'm 30, so I'm not sure I'd be eligible even if it was available to me. It's interesting though, I went to urgent care recently for a minor annoyance, food allergies, which I'm going to be tested for soon, and they practically laughed me out the door. Their attitude was basically, if you don't have flu-like symptoms, go away. There was a 2-hour wait. I left. If you do decide to get the H1N1 vaccine, try to get the nasal vaccine. It's more of a realistic exposure than the shot. I've read that it doesnt' have a lot of the same additives as the shot.


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Oct 18 2009, 10:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841149


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Oct 18 2009, 10:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841148





> I am too old to get the swine flu shot so I don't have to worry about making the decision! :biggrin:
> 
> Seriously, the high risk group is people under 25, pregnant woman, health care workers, etc. I think they are struggling just to produce enough vaccine to offer to that group. I wouldn't be able to get the vaccine even if I wanted to.
> 
> I do get the regular flu shot every year and have never had a problem ..... or the flu.[/B]


Marj, I wasn't going to get the H1N1 flu shot anyway but are you saying that they won't give it to people above a certain age?
[/B][/QUOTE]


Healthy people over "a certain" age aren't eligible for it now as it is in limited supply. Only people in the high risk group can get it now. They may eventually offer it to us when there is more available.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Oct 18 2009, 11:41 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841165


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Oct 18 2009, 10:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841149





> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Oct 18 2009, 10:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841148





> I am too old to get the swine flu shot so I don't have to worry about making the decision! :biggrin:
> 
> Seriously, the high risk group is people under 25, pregnant woman, health care workers, etc. I think they are struggling just to produce enough vaccine to offer to that group. I wouldn't be able to get the vaccine even if I wanted to.
> 
> I do get the regular flu shot every year and have never had a problem ..... or the flu.[/B]


Marj, I wasn't going to get the H1N1 flu shot anyway but are you saying that they won't give it to people above a certain age?
[/B][/QUOTE]


Healthy people over "a certain" age aren't eligible for it now as it is in limited supply. Only people in the high risk group can get it now. They may eventually offer it to us when there is more available.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks, Marj... I hope they keep it that way... makes it easy for me... not having to make a decision!!


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## camfan

I consider myself fairly intelligent and read up on this stuff, have a very healthy body and diet, yada, yada and all I can say is sign me up for any and every shot having to do with any and every flu. I wasn't so sure about H1N1 but will not risk going without for my family.

Didn't get regular flu shot last year and ended up in the hospital with 103.9 temp--VERY scary. I really thought I was going to die--took an ambulance ride in the middle of the night.

Knock wood my kids are VERY healthy but the few times they have been very sick it was terrifying. My little one had type A flu one year and I was never so scared in my life.

I think when you have young kids at home it changes your perspective a lot.


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## Ladysmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Oct 18 2009, 12:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841170


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Oct 18 2009, 11:41 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841165





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Oct 18 2009, 10:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841149





> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Oct 18 2009, 10:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841148





> I am too old to get the swine flu shot so I don't have to worry about making the decision! :biggrin:
> 
> Seriously, the high risk group is people under 25, pregnant woman, health care workers, etc. I think they are struggling just to produce enough vaccine to offer to that group. I wouldn't be able to get the vaccine even if I wanted to.
> 
> I do get the regular flu shot every year and have never had a problem ..... or the flu.[/B]


Marj, I wasn't going to get the H1N1 flu shot anyway but are you saying that they won't give it to people above a certain age?
[/B][/QUOTE]


Healthy people over "a certain" age aren't eligible for it now as it is in limited supply. Only people in the high risk group can get it now. They may eventually offer it to us when there is more available.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks, Marj... I hope they keep it that way... makes it easy for me... not having to make a decision!! 
[/B][/QUOTE]


I was worrying and debating about it too until my dentist told me that we were both too old to qualify for it. :biggrin: 

I think careful hand washing, hand sanitizers, etc. is still the best idea, although once my grandchildren visit it doesn't matter anyway. They bring their daycare germs and I always get sick. My grandson and I both got sick three days after their last visit and he was diagnosed with swine flu, so I may have had it anyway. He recovered quickly, in a matter of days, and I am still not 100% almost three weeks later.


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## Maidto2Maltese

I do get the 'regular' flu shot every year for years....one year I didn't get it and got the flu and it was AWFUL! As to the H1N1 I believe I am not in the 'qualifying' first round/high risk groups due to my age. I work with the public and hope I don't get it obviously for my own sake.... but also fear bringing it to my hubby who has COPD. 

I haven't had a plain ole cold for a few years but last week did come down with one. I worry for my hubby with even a simple cold. I took every precaution possible.... wore mask ... CONSTANTLY WASHED HANDS ... and did for the recommended time of at least 30 seconds.... I had a solution of bleach and detergent which I used to wipe down everything after I touched ( light switches, refrig door, micro-buttons, tea-pot handle...phone etc) and he still got the cold... started in about 5 days after the onset of mine. Nine times out of 10 any colds turn into more 'complicated' health problem because of his COPD. ( and a litany of other health problems) Hoping this one will be one of those 1% times where it stays 'just a cold'. 

However.... This experience concerns me regarding exposure to the H1N1 because if being extra diligent trying to protect him from the common cold and it didn't work... what chance do we have of avoiding the H1N1? Not to say I don't plan to continue the practice of hand washing etc even after the cold is over but I don't feel as secure about avoiding as I did.

I don't know yet ( he has a Dr visit coming up) if his Dr will recommend he get the H1N1 vaccine or not... his age puts him in low risk but his health puts him in high risk .... so we'll have to see. 

BTW ..yes we both eat healthy etc.


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## Ladysmom

Terry, I'm sure your doctor will recommend your husband get it as older people with health issues are considered high risk, too.


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## Bonnie's Mommie

My mother is 68, and asked her doctor about it. He told her that people born before 1957 had enough antibodies in their system to fight it, so she is not taking it, although she is not the picture of health. I'm going tomorrow for an annual checkup and will probably get the 'regular' flu shot as I have in the past, and will ask my doctor about the H1N1 for me.


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## Matilda's mommy

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Oct 18 2009, 09:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841148


> I am too old to get the swine flu shot so I don't have to worry about making the decision! :biggrin:
> 
> Seriously, the high risk group is people under 25, pregnant woman, health care workers, etc. I think they are struggling just to produce enough vaccine to offer to that group. I wouldn't be able to get the vaccine even if I wanted to.
> 
> I do get the regular flu shot every year and have never had a problem ..... or the flu.[/B]



I know one of the people who died here was 62 and in good health, also a 39 year old died last week. The doctors here are baffled why healthy people are dying. My doctor has told me that I should get both shots, I had the regular flu shot two weeks ago. I just know how sick I was a few weeks ago and I don't want to go through that again. I'm still not 100%. I am healty otherwise


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## myfairlacy

I've never had a flu shot and never had the flu. And hopefully that will continue this year as well. I will not get the seasonal or H1N1 Flu shot this year either. I'm 24 and in vet school and Swine Flu and other illnesses have rampantly been going through the school and many of my classmates have been out sick this semester. So far, thankfully, I have not been sick. My thoughts are I may never even get the flu and if I do, I do have an immune system that has functioned very well for me the past 24 years. The majority of people are not going to die from the flu, swine or not. I just don't usually believe in getting vaccines, for me or animals, that aren't protecting against highly contagious and highly fatal diseases...and the flu doesn't fit into the "highly fatal" category. I also do not trust the swine flu vaccine at all...it was made too fast and without testing..


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## miko's mommy

i am not getting it and i don't have a great reason why. Sigh, i probably should since i do work in the hospital, but i do not see patients at this point and i am just worried about the side effects it could have since i am 6 months pregnant now. if i wasn't pregnant, i would get it. my ob is very supportive either way so i do feel ok about it.


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## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (miko's mommy @ Oct 18 2009, 07:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841284


> i am not getting it and i don't have a great reason why. Sigh, i probably should since i do work in the hospital, but i do not see patients at this point and i am just worried about the side effects it could have since i am 6 months pregnant now. if i wasn't pregnant, i would get it. my ob is very supportive either way so i do feel ok about it.[/B]



I miss you!! :grouphug: 

I don't have anything to add to this thread, other than I've already had the Swine Flu, am over it, with not many suggestions.

But I do miss you, and can't wait for the arrival of your little one ~ :tender:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Oct 18 2009, 09:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841132


> Whoops.... :behindsofa: ......I probably won't be getting the flu shot. I don't usually get sick, heck, after 10 years, my doctor still doesn't know who I am if I walk into his office. (I get my feelings hurt, but I guess that's a good thing anyway).
> 
> I have made a GYN appt though - that's something - because I haven't been to one in over 6 years. Thought it might be a good idea to get a mamogram....I always put everyone else first, especially my dogs. One time I did have pre-cancerous cells removed and was supposed to keep getting mamos every 6 months. Then I moved...my doctor was about 100 years old at that time, etc. I kept putting it off. :brownbag: ..dumb, I know.[/B]


Pat, look at it this way ... I think your fluff babies would be totally lost without you. So, please go get the mamogram and whatever other tests are necessary. :grouphug:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

I am making an appointment with my pulmonary specialist tomorrow. My internist thinks I should get the shot because I have mild MS. And, I do have asthma. But, I still want to ask the pulmonary specialist what he thinks. I just have too many questions at this point, and I think he knows my history the best, especially when it comes to my lungs. 

Paula, I am older than you ... to answer that question for you. Personally, I am questioning some things about the age factors. I'm wondering if more of the younger age groups are getting sick ... because there haven't been more precautions taken in the past, to help keep them healthy during flu outbreaks. I've known soooo many younger age kids and middle/high school age kids who were going to school when they were sick. And, guess what? Then, in the end, mostly everybody gets sick with the flu. The same with working adults. And, then, what happens when grandchildren who are sick ... visit their grandparents. One year my granddaughter was sent to us to be cared for when she had the flu. I ended up with the flu and pneumonia. I had constantly been washing my hands, etc. ... and, I still got sick being around someone who was sick.

I'm worried about my husband flying to Tucson in early December. It was on the news that in the Phoenix/Tucson area ... workers will be severely disciplined or fired if they come into work sick and with a fever. That sounds pretty serious ... as though somebody out there expects the virus to get even worse. 

So, I will give you my answer after I talk with Dr. Rosenthal. He has years of experience and is well respected as a physician in this area. So, I trust what he advises me to do. This is the first time, I swear, I am having a hard time deciding what to do. I've read all your responses ... and, I really do see both sides.


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## almitra

Gonna take a pass on the Flu shot, both seasonal and H1N1. No insurance coverage with my job, only my son is covered (which is great & the most important thing). Fortunately, I work in a field that lends itself to health and personal wellness. Hey, nearly every cloud has the proverbial silver lining!


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## wolfieinthehouse

I am not a big fan of flu shots but I will get it, and so will my kids.
That is, if it is ever available around us. There is a shortage and it hasn't arrived in our area yet.

I work with young children and often see my elderly parents (89).


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## Snowbody

I'm in my late 50's and kind of torn over this issue. I had a really bad reaction to the regular flu shot (felt like I was going to die) a couple of times. I used to just get 1/2 a shot at a time after that but they won't do that anymore. So I stopped taking that one. I am in NYC and in the subways and busses all the time :bysmilie: so flinch everytime someone starts coughing...but who knows, maybe my immunity is stronger being exposed to all those yucky germs all the time.  I guess from what I'm reading here I'm probably too old to worry about H1N1. My son's college had one of the first outbreaks in the country last spring with 54 confirmed cases on campus so we've been up close and personal with this for many months. He came home and got really sick a few weeks ago with very high fever but docs said he didn't have it when testing him. So I think we're taking a pass on it and washing our hands constantly.


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## angel's mom

I'm just confused about the whole thing. I get the seasonal flu shot every year. The H1N1, I'm too old, but also in the high risk groups. I am seeing my regular doctor next week and will do whatever she recommends.


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## mi_ku_5

I have a feeling if I'm going to get the H1N1 virus, it will get me before the shot becomes available. It's still only available to certain groups here. They've run out of the regular shot too, oh well. I've been loading up on L-lysine and vitamin C; I need to go get some vitamin D. I attend a private university where chapel is mandatory. In their infinite wisdom, the school officials haven't seen the need to cancel it, but I haven't been going. My classes are all pretty small, but I'm not subjecting myself to an auditorium full of college students, most of whom live in the dorms. (I commute.) If I loose credit for it, too bad, it won't affect my grades, like getting the flu and having to miss class would.


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## SpringHasSprung

I think most people are going to have already either HAD the swine flu...or been exposed and sloughed it off...before the vaccines are ever readily available. I'm with Nikki's Mom on this and will not be injected with this stuff. I read a study this morning that they expect the largest infection rate to be this week and next, so pump up that Vitamin D3 and wash your hands like crazy!


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## puppy lover

Did anyone hear about this? A flu shot triggered a neurological disorder in this woman :shocked: 

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/563306...last-night.html

This was just in Mercola's newsletter today and supports what MyFairLacy said about the numbers, makes a lot of sense to me.

http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Non-fo..._201020090.html


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## Maidto2Maltese

I was at my Dr yesterday and I asked him his thoughts on the H1N1 vaccine. He said if and when it's available he is absolutely getting the shot. He feels the 'fear-factor' of this vaccine is unfounded.... if people get the seasonal flu shot he doesn't understand the fear of the H1N1 vaccine as they are both made in the same manner.

I did get the reg flu shot early on ( from this same Dr) and glad I did when I did.... he said he was only sent half of his requested order and he has run out. 
He said he fears 'we" ( medical community and public) are running an awfully tight race to get the vaccine for H1N1 out there before the flu itself has taken a strong hold 'out-there'. Fears many will be exposed and contract before the vaccine is available .

Many, many of the seasonal flu shot 'clinics' in this area have had to cancel because the shipments haven't arrived...many Drs never got their orders or received much less than ordered. 

Just this AM as I was getting ready to go to my ortho-Dr. appt I received a call from recptionist to re-schedule...said Dr called in this AM and wasn't coming in because he has the flu. I don't know if this is reg flu or H1N1.


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## SpringHasSprung

Has the "regular" flu even hit yet? I thought I had heard that it had not.


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## MrBentleysMom

My husband and I will both be getting the H1N1 shot and we have both already gotten the regular flu shot. I am 36 weeks pregnant and my doctor highly suggested everyone living in our home to get both shots. It will also be helpful in 4 weeks when the baby is born. He doesnt want us to get the flu and then pass it on to the baby since his immune system is not fully developed. However, if I weren't pregnant, I probably would not get the shot.


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## camfan

60 Minutes did a great segment on it this past Sunday. Here's the written transcript: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/16/...ain;contentBody

What stood out to me is this: they highlighted a young man who just came down with H1N1 and is very, very sick now. The H1N1 ended up resulting in a bacterial lung infection in the lungs (which is what is killing people, not the virus itself). He is currently in an induced coma and on a ventilator. The "interesting" part is that his whole team came down with it, the opposing team and all the cheerleaders. This thing can SPREAD. Even if you wash your hands frequently, the virus can also be contracted by air--it can travel up to 10 feet via "tiny droplets." All you have to do is breathe. As far as it living on hard surfaces it can live up to 8 days. It has an incubation period of about a day (24 hours) from the time of contact SO you can come in contact with someone who looks and feels entirely healthy, but is a carrier. AND it is still contageous up to 7 days AFTER your symptoms are gone and you are feeling better.

Read the article on the # of H1N1 cases and fatalities that have occurred so far this year as opposed to the "regular" flu at this time last year. Regular flu is seasonal, H1N1 is year-round.

Not trying to scare anybody (you guys aren't easily scared anyway  ) Just passing along info.


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## lillykins

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Oct 18 2009, 06:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841273


> I've never had a flu shot and never had the flu. And hopefully that will continue this year as well.[/B]


I pray you never get the flu either. I got it in December, 1999 and had a temp well over 103. It was AWFUL! The flu has nothing to do with your digestive tract; it's a respiratory illness. I have asthma and I was miserable. All my bones ached so badly and my hips were the worst. I could not lie still in any position for more than 90 seconds. I soaked the sheets over and over and over. By the time I finally kicked the flu virus, I had a bronchial infection (quite common). I missed two solid weeks of work and it took me 2 months to feel like myself again. AND I WAS ONLY 40 YEARS OLD!!

QUOTE (camfan @ Oct 20 2009, 12:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841908


> 60 Minutes did a great segment on it this past Sunday. Here's the written transcript: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/16/...ain;contentBody[/B]


What struck me about the 60 minutes article was the fact that older people are not at as much of a risk. WHEW! My dad is 87 and lacks any body fat. My mother is 81 and has very little body fat. When they get sick, I PANIC!! I'm so pleased that I don't need to add the H1N1 virus to my parental worry list!!

p.s. they've already closed several school systems around here. most were closed for at least 3 days. some of the school districts were reporting 30-40% absentee rates.


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## myfairlacy

QUOTE (Lillykins @ Oct 20 2009, 04:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841961


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Oct 18 2009, 06:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841273





> I've never had a flu shot and never had the flu. And hopefully that will continue this year as well.[/B]


I pray you never get the flu either. I got it in December, 1999 and had a temp well over 103. It was AWFUL! The flu has nothing to do with your digestive tract; it's a respiratory illness. I have asthma and I was miserable. All my bones ached so badly and my hips were the worst. I could not lie still in any position for more than 90 seconds. I soaked the sheets over and over and over. By the time I finally kicked the flu virus, I had a bronchial infection (quite common). I missed two solid weeks of work and it took me 2 months to feel like myself again. AND I WAS ONLY 40 YEARS OLD!
[/B][/QUOTE]

where did I say it had something to do with the digestive tract? The flu is a respiratory virus... Yes, the flu can make you feel horrible and cause secondary complications but the reality is that most people will not die from it...and even those that are infected will have variations in their severity of symptoms. Many people that are exposed to the virus are able to fight it off and never actually even get sick....most people will get sick of course but not everyone. I hope I never get the flu either because I know it can make people feel horrible for several days...but I'm willing to take the risk instead of getting a vaccine every year that may or may not work or even be needed..and vaccines have plenty of their own side effects.


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## Kutsmail1

my concern is how fast the vaccine was, developed, and side effects to date.


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## lillykins

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Oct 20 2009, 04:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841972


> where did I say it had something to do with the digestive tract? The flu is a respiratory virus...[/B]


you didn't... and I'm very sorry if I made it seem as though you did.
I only made that statement as a general thing... because so often people call a tummy virus the "stomach flu".

I'm just so pleased to read all this back and forth... and very glad we get to choose.

p.s. depending on which web site you want to believe, between 20,000 - 30,000 people in the U.S. die of the "regular" flu every year, but just as you stated, most people do not. up to 90% of the fatalities are for older people who were not in good health prior to becoming infected with influenza.

again, my apologies.


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## mom2bijou

I am still up in the air on this. I'm leaning towards not getting it b/c I've never had a seasonal flu shot but for the last few years I came down w/the flu...and it was bad. I was all for getting the shot this year, it was suggested by my DR. to have at least the seasonal flu, but after reading so much about flu shots I put it off. Suzan (Nikki's Mom) suggested a vitamin regimen that I've been on for at least a month now and when I started feeling run down two weeks ago I kept taking Elderberry. It definitley helped. (Thanks again Suzan!) I gotta be honest though....I am still torn though whether to get the vaccine for seasonal flu. I really want to believe that all the vitamins I'm taking, hand washing, extra sleep, etc will be enough to keep me healthy this year. I still haven't made a decision.


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## sassy's mommy

I took the regular flu shot but I am NOT taking the H1N1.


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## PreciousPrince

I'm not getting either one. One of the only times I had the flu shot was the only time I got the flu. So I do think it did something to my immune system.

I will start doing the salt gargles as suggested by the article at the beginning of the thread, and get out the neti pot. (I don't like that thing lol). 
Something I've been doing is using this: Nozin. It's a homeopathic you swab inside your nose to help kill germs.
Another thing I have that is supposed to block viruses is Blockade. I've taken it several times in the past when I felt I was coming down with something and I think it helped. I see besides their patented stuff the other thing it contains is Elderberry, which Suzan recommended, so I will get some elderberry to take everyday, and then have this on hand if I feel like I'm getting sick.


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## pammy4501

QUOTE (Kutsmail1 @ Oct 20 2009, 03:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841982


> my concern is how fast the vaccine was, developed, and side effects to date.[/B]


The H1N1 vaccine has been made in the same manner that your seasonal flu vaccine has been made. It is very safe. It is even better than a seasonal vaccine. Seasonal vaccine is formulated by "educated guess work" as to what virus will be circulating out there this flu season. H1N1 is a bullseye. It will be in your seasonal vaccine next year. It would have been in it this year if they could have produced enough in time. 

I have had both the seasonal and H1N1 at this point, and have no adverse effect at all.


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## Furbaby's Mommie

:smpullhair: I read all the posts, listen to radio and TV bits on all the H1N1 stuff, and I still don't know. I will get the reg. flu shot, and always have.

I'm in the over 65 group so it won't be offered unless everyone in the other groups have had it. So far it isn't available to anyone here. Has anyone of you who have Fibromyalgia heard anything about taking it? I heard one statement a couple weeks ago that mentioned it wasn't a good idea with Fibro. I have no idea why. I don't think the shot is any different than anyother flu shot--just the strain. Every flu shot has a different strain of the virus.


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## 5maltsmom

QUOTE (momtoboo @ Oct 18 2009, 09:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841151


> I'm going to get it,if it becomes available to me. I'm more afraid of the flu than the vaccine. I suspect I already had the H1N1,but my doctor didn't test me,so now I'll never know. But I certainly don't ever want that again,it was horrid.[/B]


If you already had the swine flu, does anyone know if you can get it again?


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## myfairlacy

QUOTE (5maltsmom @ Oct 22 2009, 11:18 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=842666


> QUOTE (momtoboo @ Oct 18 2009, 09:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=841151





> I'm going to get it,if it becomes available to me. I'm more afraid of the flu than the vaccine. I suspect I already had the H1N1,but my doctor didn't test me,so now I'll never know. But I certainly don't ever want that again,it was horrid.[/B]


If you already had the swine flu, does anyone know if you can get it again?
[/B][/QUOTE]

If you've had the H1N1 strain of flu (swine flu) then no, you can never get sick from that exact strain again...you will be immune to the H1N1 strain for life. However, because of the way and speed at which the influenza virus replicates, the virus can easily change or mutate slightly, causing new strains of the flu every year. This is why someone can get the flu every year and why flu shots are recommended every year...once you've gotten sick from a strain of the flu, you are immune to that particular strain but then a new flu strain can come along and you can get sick from that one.


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## Katkoota

Swine flu vaccine is here, but nope, Kat is not gonna take it 

I got the normal flu vaccine just before I left for my last trip...


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## Nikki's Mom

Here is another point of view regarding the flu shot and pharmaceuticals. This very long article is posted here not to stir up controversy, but to merely provide a link so that one may grow informed on all sides of the issue before making a decision. People can decide for themselves as to the veracity of the article itself as I've not done any additional research on the authors, or the website. It is provided here for your information. 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...a&aid=15758


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## binniebee

Yes, I've already had both flu shots. I work for a major health insurance company and they offered the regular flu shot one week for free and the H1N1 shot the following week. So now I've had both. This is the very busiest time of the year for me and I just can't afford to be sick for a week. I basically have no back-up so I just can't be sick! One of the main reasons I got it is because the week prior to the shots being offered I had to go to my doctor just to get refills on my BP medication. It was 1:30 pm and this is a very small town (near Nashville, TN) and the doctor told me that she had already diagnosed and confirmed 5 H1N1's that day! I thought, "Yikes! And here I am with sick people all around me!" So I felt very lucky to be able to get the H1N1. I'm around 50  I had no ill effects from the shot(s).

*hugs*
Cyndi


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## Nikki's Mom

My niece (she is 7 months pregnant) got the shot and has been ill ever since.


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## pammy4501

*You cannot catch the flu from the vaccine, as it is dead virus*. If you had already been exposed, and were in the incubation period when you recieve the vaccine, you will still probably "get the flu". You _can_ experience a "immune response" to a vaccine, which can make you feel kind of crummy, but it is not as sick as the actual flu. Pregnant women have been demonstrated to have a much higher risk of experiencing extreme symptoms requiring hospitalization with this particular virus, that pose risk to the mother as well as the pregnancy. Vaccination is *highly* recommended for pregnant women.


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## lillykins

from the Centers for Disease Control: http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/protect/keyfacts.htm

The "flu shot" — an inactivated vaccine (containing killed virus) that is given with a needle, usually in the arm. The flu shot is approved for use in people older than 6 months, including healthy people and people with chronic medical conditions.

The nasal-spray flu vaccine — a vaccine made with live, weakened flu viruses that do not cause the flu (sometimes called LAIV for "live attenuated influenza vaccine" or FluMist®). LAIV (FluMist®) is approved for use in healthy* people 2-49 years of age who are not pregnant. 

my husband always felt crummy after a flu shot, so he has bypassed getting the seasonal vaccine for the past couple of years. I have asthma, so I get the seasonal vaccine each year. luckily, I have never had any after-effects.


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## pammy4501

QUOTE (Lillykins @ Oct 27 2009, 09:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=844211


> from the Centers for Disease Control: http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/protect/keyfacts.htm
> 
> The "flu shot" — an inactivated vaccine (containing killed virus) that is given with a needle, usually in the arm. The flu shot is approved for use in people older than 6 months, including healthy people and people with chronic medical conditions.
> 
> The nasal-spray flu vaccine — a vaccine made with live, weakened flu viruses that do not cause the flu (sometimes called LAIV for "live attenuated influenza vaccine" or FluMist®). LAIV (FluMist®) is approved for use in healthy* people 2-49 years of age who are not pregnant.
> 
> my husband always felt crummy after a flu shot, so he has bypassed getting the seasonal vaccine for the past couple of years. I have asthma, so I get the seasonal vaccine each year. luckily, I have never had any after-effects.[/B]


You are correct. FluMist is attenuated virus. However it is not being given to pregnant women. I think the "crummy" your hubby is feeling is an immune response. It is good that you get your shot since you are asthmatic. You are at higher risk of secondary problems if you get the flu. Everyone can make thier own decision, but sometimes not understanding how flu vaccines work, can cause some confusion.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Oct 26 2009, 05:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=843927


> *You cannot catch the flu from the vaccine, as it is dead virus*. If you had already been exposed, and were in the incubation period when you recieve the vaccine, you will still probably "get the flu". You _can_ experience a "immune response" to a vaccine, which can make you feel kind of crummy, but it is not as sick as the actual flu. Pregnant women have been demonstrated to have a much higher risk of experiencing extreme symptoms requiring hospitalization with this particular virus, that pose risk to the mother as well as the pregnancy. Vaccination is *highly* recommended for pregnant women.[/B]


Um, I never said that my pregnant niece had the flu. I said she felt ill ever since she took it. 

You know, there are those of us who simply don't think that taking vaccinations are healthy, even if the govt and the CDC and many in the medical community promises us they are safe. We will have to agree to disagree about the _long-term_ safety of taking vaccines. I am weary of having to defend my opinion about this every time it is brought up. We live in a free country (for now) and we are entitled to make our own decisions about what we put into our bodies. Here's some info about the swine flu from an alternative health website: LINK


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## puppy lover

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Oct 27 2009, 04:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=844316


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Oct 26 2009, 05:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=843927





> *You cannot catch the flu from the vaccine, as it is dead virus*. If you had already been exposed, and were in the incubation period when you recieve the vaccine, you will still probably "get the flu". You _can_ experience a "immune response" to a vaccine, which can make you feel kind of crummy, but it is not as sick as the actual flu. Pregnant women have been demonstrated to have a much higher risk of experiencing extreme symptoms requiring hospitalization with this particular virus, that pose risk to the mother as well as the pregnancy. Vaccination is *highly* recommended for pregnant women.[/B]


Um, I never said that my pregnant niece had the flu. I said she felt ill ever since she took it. 

You know, there are those of us who simply don't think that taking vaccinations are healthy, even if the govt and the CDC and many in the medical community promises us they are safe. We will have to agree to disagree about the _long-term_ safety of taking vaccines. I am weary of having to defend my opinion about this every time it is brought up. We live in a free country (for now) and we are entitled to make our own decisions about what we put into our bodies. Here's some info about the swine flu from an alternative health website: LINK
[/B][/QUOTE]

I am personally afraid of these vaccines and do not trust the people promoting them due to conflict of interest. If I were pregnant I'd be afraid of potential health effects to the baby. 
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...restimated.aspx
I hope your niece recovers soon :grouphug:


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## Nikki's Mom

I am personally afraid of these vaccines and do not trust the people promoting them due to conflict of interest. If I were pregnant I'd be afraid of potential health effects to the baby. 
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles...restimated.aspx
I hope your niece recovers soon :grouphug: 



I tried to tell my niece but she wouldn't listen, in fact, she got on my case and told me off. Now she's sick and she doesn't want mention the vaccine.


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## Nikki's Mom

If you'd like to know more in-depth info about this particular strain of flu, here's a 1 hour video by nun in Catalonia, Spain, who is also a doctor. It's in Spanish with subtitles. She gives very detailed information about H1N1 and the vaccine. She doesn't seem to have any sort of agenda either way, which is quite refreshing.

http://vimeo.com/7298827


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## iheartbisou

We just went to the doctor today (as my husband has been sick) and the dr said pregnant women should not take the vaccine- at all. I'd think that most doctors would advise against this, no? regardless, i hope your niece feels better soon...

we're still considering the vaccine but only through the French consulate as they are giving them out to all their citizens and spouses, if wanted..and their vaccine is coming from Europe and it's not locally made..another thing the doctor warned us about..but nobody in the US really needs to worry about that..


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Nov 7 2009, 09:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848476


> We just went to the doctor today (as my husband has been sick) and the dr said pregnant women should not take the vaccine- at all. I'd think that most doctors would advise against this, no? regardless, i hope your niece feels better soon...
> 
> we're still considering the vaccine but only through the French consulate as they are giving them out to all their citizens and spouses, if wanted..and their vaccine is coming from Europe and it's not locally made..another thing the doctor warned us about..but nobody in the US really needs to worry about that..[/B]



My opinion on it is that you should watch the video I posted before you make up your mind. There is a lot of good info in it.


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## triste

out of my family of 6...there are 5 of us who have been vaccinated for h1n1. Out of those 5, 4 of us had injection and 1 had the nasal. The injections were given over a week ago and no reactions have been exhibited. My daughters all received the injection b/c they are a high risk (asthma for two, diabetic for the other). My son is a healthy nearly 17 year old and received the nasal yesterday. So far, he has had no issue/reaction to it. I haven't seen him yet today b/c he got up at 5am and left for work. 

I think getting vaccinated is a personal decision. I thought long and hard before I got my son the nasal vaccine. I consulted my pediatrician as well as my daughter's endocrinologist. Illness is something I worry about daily b/c of my diabetic child. We work hard here to prevent spreading of colds and stomach viruses. The h1n1 has me scared...maybe partially b/c the media but I have to think about my at risk children. My son came out saying to me "this better not make me sick or I'll be very upset!" He knew that I was hesitant b/c it was a "live" vaccine. However, I had to go with my gut on this. If I did not have a diabetic child in my house, I would have allowed him to wait for the injection. I need Molly to build full immunity for the virus and since she is under 10, she needs 2 injections! :smheat: I'm still working on my DH to get vaccinated. The vaccines are hard to come by!

We do the seasonal vaccine every year and this is the first year any of us had a reaction to it. Of course it had to be ME! I think it's b/c I was just getting over a cold and I wasn't completely healthy. 


I think being educated and informed is the best plan for everyone. In the end..go with your gut..whatever your decision may be!


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## Max & Rocky

Yes, we have gotten the regular flu shot some weeks back and are waiting for them to have enough of the H1N1 vaccination in hand that we can get in and get it. There really is a lot of anti vaccination information around being propagated by the likes of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey and other "uninformed" people with more money than brains, I am afraid.

In our case, it is especially important since Peg's chemo knocks down her white blood count, making her more susceptible than normal to such infections.


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## Lindy

No, no, no! Taking 2000 iu of vitamin D3


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## Lindy

Oh, and you probably did have swine. We were all sick here, too. They never said we had swine, but we had our regular flu shots over a month before we got sick, so I'm guessing we had swine flu. It is very widespread now.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848506


> Yes, we have gotten the regular flu shot some weeks back and are waiting for them to have enough of the H1N1 vaccination in hand that we can get in and get it. There really is a lot of anti vaccination information around being propagated by the likes of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey and other "uninformed" people with more money than brains, I am afraid.
> 
> In our case, it is especially important since Peg's chemo knocks down her white blood count, making her more susceptible than normal to such infections.[/B]


Sorry, I really think you are a great guy, but I have to respectfully disagree that anti vaccination info is being propagated by uninformed people. That is an unfair statement. There are many doctors and specialists who do not advocate it, and there are regular people with no money and no agenda who have done hours of research into it. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but please don't knock those who don't think vaccinations are a good idea. I posted a video in another post. It's of a nun in Catalonia Spain, who is also a doctor. The video is an hour long and it's subtitled. I don't expect too many people to take the time to view it, but if you are at all interested, it is a good overview of this whole H1N1/vaccination issue. This nun isn't uninformed, and she doesn't have any money. 

Link: http://vimeo.com/7298827
Please don't take offense at what I say and I won't take offense at what you say.Thank you.


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## Max & Rocky

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 09:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848518


> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848506





> Yes, we have gotten the regular flu shot some weeks back and are waiting for them to have enough of the H1N1 vaccination in hand that we can get in and get it. There really is a lot of anti vaccination information around being propagated by the likes of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey and other "uninformed" people with more money than brains, I am afraid.
> 
> In our case, it is especially important since Peg's chemo knocks down her white blood count, making her more susceptible than normal to such infections.[/B]


Sorry, I really think you are a great guy, but I have to respectfully disagree that anti vaccination info is being propagated by uninformed people. That is an unfair statement. There are many doctors and specialists who do not advocate it, and there are regular people with no money and no agenda who have done hours of research into it. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but please don't knock those who don't think vaccinations are a good idea. I posted a video in another thread. It's of a nun in Catalonia Spain, who is also a doctor. The video is an hour long and it's subtitled. I don't expect too many people to take the time to view it, but if you are at all interested, it is a good overview of this whole H1N1/vaccination issue. This nun isn't uninformed, and she doesn't have any money. 

Link: http://vimeo.com/7298827
Please don't take offense at what I say and I won't take offense at what you say.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The logical extension of what the anti vaccination crowd are saying is that we should not get vaccinations of any type because the vaccination industry is putting a scam over on us and poisoning us.

No thanks!


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## myfairlacy

I do very much think a lot of these vaccines are pushed because of money...I of course don't think that's the ONLY reason but I do think it plays a big part in human healthcare. And I think that's sad because it makes it hard to trust your doctor for a non-biased opinion. Vaccines just seem to be the common thing to do and are big money for the vaccine companies..and doctors get incentives to push them... Last time I went to the gynocologist (a new one..first visit with her), the very first thing she asked me was if I was interested in getting the Gardasil vaccine..I just wasn't real crazy about that being the first thing that came up...

Anyway... I did want to post that I have a friend who received the swine flu vaccine a little over a week ago and a day or two later she started having numbness around her ear that spread down her neck and down her arm and hand. She's still numb and had an MRI yesterday. They don't think it has to do anything with her getting the vaccine and it may not...but I honestly have to wonder since it started right after she got the vaccine...


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848520


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 09:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848518





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848506





> Yes, we have gotten the regular flu shot some weeks back and are waiting for them to have enough of the H1N1 vaccination in hand that we can get in and get it. There really is a lot of anti vaccination information around being propagated by the likes of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey and other "uninformed" people with more money than brains, I am afraid.
> 
> In our case, it is especially important since Peg's chemo knocks down her white blood count, making her more susceptible than normal to such infections.[/B]


Sorry, I really think you are a great guy, but I have to respectfully disagree that anti vaccination info is being propagated by uninformed people. That is an unfair statement. There are many doctors and specialists who do not advocate it, and there are regular people with no money and no agenda who have done hours of research into it. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but please don't knock those who don't think vaccinations are a good idea. I posted a video in another thread. It's of a nun in Catalonia Spain, who is also a doctor. The video is an hour long and it's subtitled. I don't expect too many people to take the time to view it, but if you are at all interested, it is a good overview of this whole H1N1/vaccination issue. This nun isn't uninformed, and she doesn't have any money. 

Link: http://vimeo.com/7298827
Please don't take offense at what I say and I won't take offense at what you say.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The logical extension of what the anti vaccination crowd are saying is that we should not get vaccinations of any type because the vaccination industry is putting a scam over on us and poisoning us.

No thanks!

[/B][/QUOTE]

Not exactly. That is an assumption on your part. Some people believe that, but there are very many differing viewpoints on this. Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately.

However some people think that there are other ways to prevent/treat disease besides using traditional medicine and synthetic drugs. It is a shame in this country that when there are differences of opinion, people often resort to ridiculing and demonizing those that don't agree with them, instead of having informed and intelligent discussions, even though they disagree.


----------



## Max & Rocky

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 02:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848582


> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848520





> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 09:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848518





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848506





> Yes, we have gotten the regular flu shot some weeks back and are waiting for them to have enough of the H1N1 vaccination in hand that we can get in and get it. There really is a lot of anti vaccination information around being propagated by the likes of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey and other "uninformed" people with more money than brains, I am afraid.
> 
> In our case, it is especially important since Peg's chemo knocks down her white blood count, making her more susceptible than normal to such infections.[/B]


Sorry, I really think you are a great guy, but I have to respectfully disagree that anti vaccination info is being propagated by uninformed people. That is an unfair statement. There are many doctors and specialists who do not advocate it, and there are regular people with no money and no agenda who have done hours of research into it. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but please don't knock those who don't think vaccinations are a good idea. I posted a video in another thread. It's of a nun in Catalonia Spain, who is also a doctor. The video is an hour long and it's subtitled. I don't expect too many people to take the time to view it, but if you are at all interested, it is a good overview of this whole H1N1/vaccination issue. This nun isn't uninformed, and she doesn't have any money. 

Link: http://vimeo.com/7298827
Please don't take offense at what I say and I won't take offense at what you say.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The logical extension of what the anti vaccination crowd are saying is that we should not get vaccinations of any type because the vaccination industry is putting a scam over on us and poisoning us.

No thanks!

[/B][/QUOTE]

Not exactly. That is an assumption on your part. Some people believe that, but there are very many differing viewpoints on this. Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately.

However some people think that there are other ways to prevent/treat disease besides using traditional medicine and synthetic drugs. It is a shame in this country that when there are differences of opinion, people often resort to ridiculing and demonizing those that don't agree with them, instead of having informed and intelligent discussions, even though they disagree.
[/B][/QUOTE]


>that is an assumption on your part<

I'd be happy to discuss in any level of detail whatever you like, but you have to tell me first. So you are telling me that you are not anti-vaccination? Are there certain vaccines you like while there are others you don't like? Please discuss.

>Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately< Let me guess, you recently saw Carrey and McCarthy on the Larry King Show and you consider it an authoritative and complete discussion?

Not even close I am afraid.

Read this, for a starter and then come back and tell me that Paul Offit, who should actually be considered an American hero, has been treated accurately and fairly by the anti vaccination side.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

>having informed and intelligent discussions<

That is humorous because that is exactly what the anti vaccination crowd isn't allowing the other side to do. I've never seen an anti-vaccination proponent ever present peer reviewed science in support of their points of view. 

There are isolated so called experts who have different opinions, yet by any measure of scientific consensus, there is total agreement. Todays vaccines are safe, effective, and necessary for the vast majority of people. The few dissenters get lots of attention, but it’s always the same old names and the same old already refuted data they toss around.

I'm afraid that I am really not surprised that an actress and an actor's opinions are given more weight than a real scientist, considering our worship of TV & movie stars in this country. However, I am very saddened by it and what it means long term for us.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 04:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848599


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 02:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848582





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848520





> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 09:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848518





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848506





> Yes, we have gotten the regular flu shot some weeks back and are waiting for them to have enough of the H1N1 vaccination in hand that we can get in and get it. There really is a lot of anti vaccination information around being propagated by the likes of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey and other "uninformed" people with more money than brains, I am afraid.
> 
> In our case, it is especially important since Peg's chemo knocks down her white blood count, making her more susceptible than normal to such infections.[/B]


Sorry, I really think you are a great guy, but I have to respectfully disagree that anti vaccination info is being propagated by uninformed people. That is an unfair statement. There are many doctors and specialists who do not advocate it, and there are regular people with no money and no agenda who have done hours of research into it. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but please don't knock those who don't think vaccinations are a good idea. I posted a video in another thread. It's of a nun in Catalonia Spain, who is also a doctor. The video is an hour long and it's subtitled. I don't expect too many people to take the time to view it, but if you are at all interested, it is a good overview of this whole H1N1/vaccination issue. This nun isn't uninformed, and she doesn't have any money. 

Link: http://vimeo.com/7298827
Please don't take offense at what I say and I won't take offense at what you say.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The logical extension of what the anti vaccination crowd are saying is that we should not get vaccinations of any type because the vaccination industry is putting a scam over on us and poisoning us.

No thanks!

[/B][/QUOTE]

Not exactly. That is an assumption on your part. Some people believe that, but there are very many differing viewpoints on this. Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately.

However some people think that there are other ways to prevent/treat disease besides using traditional medicine and synthetic drugs. It is a shame in this country that when there are differences of opinion, people often resort to ridiculing and demonizing those that don't agree with them, instead of having informed and intelligent discussions, even though they disagree.
[/B][/QUOTE]


>that is an assumption on your part<

I'd be happy to discuss in any level of detail whatever you like, but you have to tell me first. So you are telling me that you are not anti-vaccination? Are there certain vaccines you like while there are others you don't like? Please discuss.

>Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately< Let me guess, you recently saw Carrey and McCarthy on the Larry King Show and you consider it an authoritative and complete discussion?

Not even close I am afraid.

Read this, for a starter and then come back and tell me that Paul Offit, who should actually be considered an American hero, has been treated accurately and fairly by the anti vaccination side.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

>having informed and intelligent discussions<

That is humorous because that is exactly what the anti vaccination crowd isn't allowing the other side to do. I've never seen an anti-vaccination proponent ever present peer reviewed science in support of their points of view. 

There are isolated so called experts who have different opinions, yet by any measure of scientific consensus, there is total agreement. Todays vaccines are safe, effective, and necessary for the vast majority of people. The few dissenters get lots of attention, but it's always the same old names and the same old already refuted data they toss around.

I'm afraid that I am really not surprised that an actress and an actor's opinions are given more weight than a real scientist, considering our worship of TV & movie stars in this country. However, I am very saddened by it and what it means long term for us.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I am sorry, but you are continuing to make many assumptions about me that are simply not true. I don't watch TV. I don't go to the movies. I don't read magazines about celebrities, or follow any actors or actresses at all, let alone take their opinions as my own. 

I have had an interest in holistic health since I was 18 years old (a long time ago) I do a lot of research into it all the time. I also use traditional medicine when the need arises. I read medical journals and articles from both sides of an issue, *then I make up my own mind. *

You can believe all you want that there is "total agreement" in the medical field about vaccinations, but I respectfully disagree. I have several friends who are M.D.'s who would disagree as well. There isn't total agreement, and then why should there be? I for one do not want to live in a world where everyone agrees on everything. We must continue to question and discuss, and look for new ways of doing things. 

You call people who don't agree about vaccinations "dissenters?" My, that is a loaded and very disconcerting thing to say. What kind of a world do we live in where people who choose to maintain their health via holistic means are called "dissenters?" 

I am quite disappointed in some of the statements that you made about me and other people who disagree about vaccinations. If everything thought like you, there would be no room for dissent, and history shows us that is a terrible thing.


----------



## myfairlacy

celebrities have nothing to do with my opinions on vaccines...although I think it's great that there are some educated celebrities out there willing to speak out about the dangers of vaccines. I wouldn't say that I'm anti-vaccination because i do believe that there are some vaccines that are necessary for both humans and pets. What I am anti- is overvaccination and unnecessary vaccination. I only believe in vaccinating against common, contagious disease with high mortality rates and then I only believe in vaccinating for those only when necessary (a lot of vaccines are given way too many times/too often). Vaccines are both a good thing and a bad thing in my opinion. Flu vaccines fall into the unneccessary category for most people (and dogs in the case of canine influenza) in my opinion.


----------



## iheartbisou

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 11:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848496


> QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Nov 7 2009, 09:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848476





> We just went to the doctor today (as my husband has been sick) and the dr said pregnant women should not take the vaccine- at all. I'd think that most doctors would advise against this, no? regardless, i hope your niece feels better soon...
> 
> we're still considering the vaccine but only through the French consulate as they are giving them out to all their citizens and spouses, if wanted..and their vaccine is coming from Europe and it's not locally made..another thing the doctor warned us about..but nobody in the US really needs to worry about that..[/B]



My opinion on it is that you should watch the video I posted before you make up your mind. There is a lot of good info in it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

that link does not open for me...


----------



## Nikki's Mom

Try this youtube link. It's in 6 parts on you tube. This is part 1

Sorry, no subtitles

http://www.youtube.com/1ALISH


Here's the original link again:
http://vimeo.com/7298827

Sorry, I'll try and find another link and post in the morning.


----------



## iheartbisou

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 10:56 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848697


> Try this youtube link. It's in 6 parts on you tube. This is part 1
> 
> Sorry, no subtitles
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/1ALISH
> 
> 
> Here's the original link again:
> http://vimeo.com/7298827
> 
> Sorry, I'll try and find another link and post in the morning.[/B]


Youtube is banned in China..won't work either.. (that's an "all media controlled by the government" country for you!)

What language is it in? My MIL sent me one which was in French (which I speak) but I couldn't open it here either. Could this be the same video?


----------



## lovesophie

I won't be getting the flu vaccine.  I'll just be taking my cod liver oil and vita C, along with consuming a "traditional diet". I think this will suffice.  

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 01:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848599


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 02:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848582





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848520





> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 7 2009, 09:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848518





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 7 2009, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848506





> Yes, we have gotten the regular flu shot some weeks back and are waiting for them to have enough of the H1N1 vaccination in hand that we can get in and get it. There really is a lot of anti vaccination information around being propagated by the likes of Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carey and other "uninformed" people with more money than brains, I am afraid.
> 
> In our case, it is especially important since Peg's chemo knocks down her white blood count, making her more susceptible than normal to such infections.[/B]


Sorry, I really think you are a great guy, but I have to respectfully disagree that anti vaccination info is being propagated by uninformed people. That is an unfair statement. There are many doctors and specialists who do not advocate it, and there are regular people with no money and no agenda who have done hours of research into it. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but please don't knock those who don't think vaccinations are a good idea. I posted a video in another thread. It's of a nun in Catalonia Spain, who is also a doctor. The video is an hour long and it's subtitled. I don't expect too many people to take the time to view it, but if you are at all interested, it is a good overview of this whole H1N1/vaccination issue. This nun isn't uninformed, and she doesn't have any money. 

Link: http://vimeo.com/7298827
Please don't take offense at what I say and I won't take offense at what you say.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The logical extension of what the anti vaccination crowd are saying is that we should not get vaccinations of any type because the vaccination industry is putting a scam over on us and poisoning us.

No thanks!

[/B][/QUOTE]

Not exactly. That is an assumption on your part. Some people believe that, but there are very many differing viewpoints on this. Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately.

However some people think that there are other ways to prevent/treat disease besides using traditional medicine and synthetic drugs. It is a shame in this country that when there are differences of opinion, people often resort to ridiculing and demonizing those that don't agree with them, instead of having informed and intelligent discussions, even though they disagree.
[/B][/QUOTE]


>that is an assumption on your part<

I'd be happy to discuss in any level of detail whatever you like, but you have to tell me first. So you are telling me that you are not anti-vaccination? Are there certain vaccines you like while there are others you don't like? Please discuss.

>Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately< Let me guess, you recently saw Carrey and McCarthy on the Larry King Show and you consider it an authoritative and complete discussion?

Not even close I am afraid.

Read this, for a starter and then come back and tell me that Paul Offit, who should actually be considered an American hero, has been treated accurately and fairly by the anti vaccination side.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

>having informed and intelligent discussions<

That is humorous because that is exactly what the anti vaccination crowd isn't allowing the other side to do. I've never seen an anti-vaccination proponent ever present peer reviewed science in support of their points of view. 

There are isolated so called experts who have different opinions, yet by any measure of scientific consensus, there is total agreement. Todays vaccines are safe, effective, and necessary for the vast majority of people. The few dissenters get lots of attention, but it’s always the same old names and the same old already refuted data they toss around.

I'm afraid that I am really not surprised that an actress and an actor's opinions are given more weight than a real scientist, considering our worship of TV & movie stars in this country. However, I am very saddened by it and what it means long term for us.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow. Not only was your post rude, but it was incredibly uncalled for.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (shanghaimomma @ Nov 8 2009, 12:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848746


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 10:56 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848697





> Try this youtube link. It's in 6 parts on you tube. This is part 1
> 
> Sorry, no subtitles
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/1ALISH
> 
> 
> Here's the original link again:
> http://vimeo.com/7298827
> 
> Sorry, I'll try and find another link and post in the morning.[/B]


Youtube is banned in China..won't work either.. (that's an "all media controlled by the government" country for you!)

What language is it in? My MIL sent me one which was in French (which I speak) but I couldn't open it here either. Could this be the same video?
[/B][/QUOTE]

It is in Spanish


----------



## Maidto2Maltese

I feel to get or not get the vaccine is a personal decision and both sides should respect the other's decision. I think most people by now have indeed investigated the pros and cons and have come to an individual decision . I think that decision should be respected regardless of which stand one takes. 

I think for each 'side' to state their decision and if they chose to to state 'why' is fine but I don't think either positon should be 'knocked' or 'accused' of being wrong. 

I personally am grateful for the human vaccines. I feel vaccines is one of the most important breakthroughs in the history of medicine. Diseases like smallpox, polio and diphtheria had devestating results. People died, were paralyzed, crippled and disfigured by diseases that today, are preventable through vaccination. 

In the veterinay world I too think vaccines are important....my issue with ' them" is the automatic proticol of giving them annually when I don't believe that is necessary and do believe that thinking is finally beginning to change.

I think BOTH sides can be 'right' because thru investigation each has come to a decision that is "right' for them and should be left at that. 

I did get the seasonal flu shot and have for years. I'm in the age group of being borderline for 'risk' as to the H1N1. My hubby is a bit older but has diabetes and COPD. He has done his own research and he wants to get the vaccine if it is available to him. If it was felt I should also get it to protect him I will get it. I have no fear of it, I just wouldn't want to take it if the supply is low and someone at higher risk would be denied.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

Yes, we still live in a free country and for now we are still able to voice our opinions freely. Exchange of ideas is what made our country great. The reason why penicillin and vaccines were created in the first place is because someone thought that there was a better way to treat a disease. 

I firmly believe from my own past experiences and from talking to M.D.'s, Veterinarians, and holistic health professionals that there are *many *ways to treat disease, both by allopathic methods and holistic methods. If you think vaccinations are the answer and they work so well, then take them all you want, it is none of my business. If someone posts a thread and asks for opinions I will give mine. But why should it be anyone's business if I don't want to get a flu shot or other vaccines? I can't possibly transmit H1N1 to you if you have been vaccinated, correct? Last time I checked_, w_e live in a Constitutional Republic, not a dictatorship. I do not want the medical industry running my life, either via government or via insurance companies, or via people who demonize me for my decisions. 

If an inventor of a vaccination is treated poorly that's a shame, but that doesn't have anything to do with my personal decision. I'm not part of any "crowd," and I don't view medicine like religion or politics. I simply state my opinions. We don't live in North Korea last time I checked, so I can still speak my mind, right? 

Overall, I do not believe that *most *vaccinations are necessary for viruses like the flu, shingles, hpv, etc. It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. There's a vast difference between a polio epidemic and the seasonal flu, and the milder strain of flu called H1N1. And yes, I might consider a vaccination if and when I felt it was needed, AFTER I DID MY OWN RESEARCH and consulted my traditional medicine physician, and a holistic professional. 

I would venture a guess that some people who are so vehemently pro-vaccination have never seen vaccination damage in children and adults. I have, unfortunately. 

The medical/pharmaceutical industry, and it's products have become a behemoth and is almost like a religion or the gestapo now, taking over people's lives and their decision-making. We used to be independent thinkers in this country, and we actually looked up to people who thought outside the box, and wanted to think differently, now we ridicule them.

You know Steve, because you are a long-term member here and have been through a lot lately, I'm trying not to get too offended at your posts, which seemed to be angrily directed toward me. I will continue to speak my mind with respect, but I won't attack you personally. I just offer a difference of opinion.


----------



## triste

I'll give you another perspective...and I mean it with good intentions. Just something to think about for those of you who choose not to vaccinate. 

If you come down with h1n1 b/c you haven't been vaccinated and say you go to the ER b/c you need medical attention. Okay..now add maybe a few more. Now add my diabetic daughter who HAS been vaccinated but has come down with say...a stomach flu and cannot hold anything down and her blood sugars are through the roof. We need to hit the ER b/c this can turn deadly to my daughter quite easily. The ER waiting room is full of people ..and they must wade through and prioritize who goes first. H1N1 has proven to be deadly. So is Diabetic Ketoacidosis. Which of the patients gets treated first? If my daughter gets treated first b/c she can slip into DKA quickly..and you or your family member who hasn't gotten vaccinated for h1n1...has to wait ...how would you feel? I know that if my daughter goes into DKA b/c the ER is too busy w/ h1n1 people who had the choice to vaccinate...I think I might turn into a mother bear and get angry. Is that fair? I don't know but type 1 diabetes is not preventable and no vaccination for it, but there is one for h1n1. So ya, in that circumstance I think I might have to say WHY don't you vaccinate if you had the choice? 

Unfortunately these are the things I MUST think about as a parent of a high risk child. Sad but true. :smheat: Again..I'm not looking for a fight, just something that a parent like me MUST think about.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 8 2009, 01:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848921


> I'll give you another perspective...and I mean it with good intentions. Just something to think about for those of you who choose not to vaccinate.
> 
> If you come down with h1n1 b/c you haven't been vaccinated and say you go to the ER b/c you need medical attention. Okay..now add maybe a few more. Now add my diabetic daughter who HAS been vaccinated but has come down with say...a stomach flu and cannot hold anything down and her blood sugars are through the roof. We need to hit the ER b/c this can turn deadly to my daughter quite easily. The ER waiting room is full of people ..and they must wade through and prioritize who goes first. H1N1 has proven to be deadly. So is Diabetic Ketoacidosis. Which of the patients gets treated first? If my daughter gets treated first b/c she can slip into DKA quickly..and you or your family member who hasn't gotten vaccinated for h1n1...has to wait ...how would you feel? I know that if my daughter goes into DKA b/c the ER is too busy w/ h1n1 people who had the choice to vaccinate...I think I might turn into a mother bear and get angry. Is that fair? I don't know but type 1 diabetes is not preventable and no vaccination for it, but there is one for h1n1. So ya, in that circumstance I think I might have to say WHY don't you vaccinate if you had the choice?
> 
> Unfortunately these are the things I MUST think about as a parent of a high risk child. Sad but true. :smheat: Again..I'm not looking for a fight, just something that a parent like me MUST think about.[/B]


I understand where you are coming from. My mother had diabetes. However.

H1N1 has not proven to be deadly. Overall, it has been proven to be a much milder strain of flu than the average seasonal flu. And secondly, it would be highly unlikely, almost a zero chance that I would ever go to the emergency room for flu complications. I have no medical insurance, and I probably would be examined LAST because of that. Anyway, if I were ill, I'd see my doctor - who is a very close friend, and who would treat me immediately, day or night. 

Vaccinations make me ill. I am extremely sensitive to all chemicals and preservatives, including those in vaccines. If I were to take a flu vaccine, I would put myself at risk for even more immune system issues than I already have. I had a vaccination 20 years ago that left me quite ill. I'm not risking taking another one if I can help it.

So should I choose to become ill from a vaccine because of the extremely remote possibility that I might find myself in the emergency room and get treated before someone else? And whose decision is it to triage patients in a hospital? How can you blame the patient for that? How do you know that all vaccines work, all the time? What if you took a flu shot and got the flu anyway? There are too many variables here, although I appreciate where you are coming from. 

I have only had the flu *once* in my entire life - 12 years ago - *the year I had a flu shot.* At the urging of my former employer.


----------



## Maidto2Maltese

QUOTE


> _It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. _[/B]


Having read thru the many posts here. I 'think' I am the only one who made reference to the polio/smallpox vaccines, (not 'everyone' ) so assume you are refering to my statement. If there were others as well than please excuse on that point.
However, I want to make it clear I certainly am not 'pushing vaccinations' of any kind to anybody and thought I made that clear . Just because I do get them and feel they are a valuable 'tool' doesn't mean I think others who chose not to are wrong.
I respect those who had another opinion for I firmly believe it is a personal choice. 
I simply stated only MY personal opinion in regard to them just as those who are not in favor have stated reasons.... but certainly was not 'pushing' vaccinations.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Nov 8 2009, 05:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848996


> QUOTE





> _It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. _[/B]


Having read thru the many posts here. I 'think' I am the only one who made reference to the polio/smallpox vaccines, (not 'everyone' ) so assume you are refering to my statement. If there were others as well than please excuse on that point.
However, I want to make it clear I certainly am not 'pushing vaccinations' of any kind to anybody and thought I made that clear . Just because I do get them and feel they are a valuable 'tool' doesn't mean I think others who chose not to are wrong.
I respect those who had another opinion for I firmly believe it is a personal choice. 
I simply stated only MY personal opinion in regard to them just as those who are not in favor have stated reasons.... but certainly was not 'pushing' vaccinations.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, no I didn't mean you, it was just a general statement.


----------



## Max & Rocky

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 09:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848873


> Yes, we still live in a free country and for now we are still able to voice our opinions freely. Exchange of ideas is what made our country great. The reason why penicillin and vaccines were created in the first place is because someone thought that there was a better way to treat a disease.
> 
> I firmly believe from my own past experiences and from talking to M.D.'s, Veterinarians, and holistic health professionals that there are *many *ways to treat disease, both by allopathic methods and holistic methods. If you think vaccinations are the answer and they work so well, then take them all you want, it is none of my business. If someone posts a thread and asks for opinions I will give mine. But why should it be anyone's business if I don't want to get a flu shot or other vaccines? I can't possibly transmit H1N1 to you if you have been vaccinated, correct? Last time I checked_, w_e live in a Constitutional Republic, not a dictatorship. I do not want the medical industry running my life, either via government or via insurance companies, or via people who demonize me for my decisions.
> 
> If an inventor of a vaccination is treated poorly that's a shame, but that doesn't have anything to do with my personal decision. I'm not part of any "crowd," and I don't view medicine like religion or politics. I simply state my opinions. We don't live in North Korea last time I checked, so I can still speak my mind, right?
> 
> Overall, I do not believe that *most *vaccinations are necessary for viruses like the flu, shingles, hpv, etc. It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. There's a vast difference between a polio epidemic and the seasonal flu, and the milder strain of flu called H1N1. And yes, I might consider a vaccination if and when I felt it was needed, AFTER I DID MY OWN RESEARCH and consulted my traditional medicine physician, and a holistic professional.
> 
> I would venture a guess that some people who are so vehemently pro-vaccination have never seen vaccination damage in children and adults. I have, unfortunately.
> 
> The medical/pharmaceutical industry, and it's products have become a behemoth and is almost like a religion or the gestapo now, taking over people's lives and their decision-making. We used to be independent thinkers in this country, and we actually looked up to people who thought outside the box, and wanted to think differently, now we ridicule them.
> 
> You know Steve, because you are a long-term member here and have been through a lot lately, I'm trying not to get too offended at your posts, which seemed to be angrily directed toward me. I will continue to speak my mind with respect, but I won't attack you personally. I just offer a difference of opinion.[/B]


I certainly do not need or want anyone here or anyplace else feel sorry for me for any reason.

I also I do not feel I have been rude at all toward you anyone in this thread. I have disagreed with you and I will continue to do so on this subject. I do agree, for example, short of a full scale H1N1 pandemic, everyone should be free to do as they please relative to if they should be vaccinated or not. I have tried to get you to discuss specifics as far as what you believe and cite references for those beliefs but I've yet to see anything much more specific than you know doctors, vets, and holistic medicine people who...

There also have been problems in the past with various vaccines. I think it is commonly accepted now that the flu vaccinations they gave back in the mid 1970s were flawed. I also think people were entirely correct to question the use of a very small amount of a preservative called ethylmercury in some influenza formulations given to children. However, that stopped in 2001 and the rates of childhood autism have continued to rise since then and the anti vac believers are still citing mercury as a major cause of autism.

I have a daughter who is an RN and has worked in Africa with several organizations going into the bush and giving vaccinations to villages. Peg's mom was a nurse in the late 1940 into the 1950s (before she had too many kids to continue). Our best friend was a skid row ER nurse at some hospital in San Francisco in the 80s and into the 90s until she could not take the stress. All of these people believe strongly in modern vaccines and have recounted terrible stories of diseases and sickness which are easily preventable by todays vaccines. Our son in law is a eye surgeon and our best family friend is an Orthapedic surgeon, while hardly on the cutting edge of vaccinations, they to are very strong believers. Various family get togethers have included some rather heated debate on this subject as a result!

My concern in any of these types of discussions is the information that gets propagated by the anti vax crowd that is accepted as gospel by most people who don't have the time to learn otherwise. A fair number of those people have 9or will have) children.

In May, The New England Journal of Medicine laid the blame for clusters of disease outbreaks throughout the US squarely at the feet of declining vaccination rates, while nonprofit health care provider Kaiser Permanente reported that unvaccinated children were 23 times more likely to get pertussis, a highly contagious bacterial disease that causes violent coughing and is potentially lethal to infants. In the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, Jason Glanz, an epidemiologist at Kaiser’s Institute for Health Research, revealed that the number of reported pertussis cases jumped from 1,000 in 1976 to 26,000.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

The para above was taken directly from this article. I really urge anyone who doubts the effectiveness of modern day vaccines to read this from cover to cover.

I believe passionately (no kidding huh?!) in vaccinations.

If I have offended you or anyone else on this board by my beliefs, I apologize. I have certainly not tried to single you out and honestly at this point, I don't even remember what in one of your posts got me so wound up. I guess whatever it was, it goes without saying that I disagreed.

Anyway, whatever the case, again, I apologize and this will end my posts on the subject.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 8 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849013


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 09:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848873





> Yes, we still live in a free country and for now we are still able to voice our opinions freely. Exchange of ideas is what made our country great. The reason why penicillin and vaccines were created in the first place is because someone thought that there was a better way to treat a disease.
> 
> I firmly believe from my own past experiences and from talking to M.D.'s, Veterinarians, and holistic health professionals that there are *many *ways to treat disease, both by allopathic methods and holistic methods. If you think vaccinations are the answer and they work so well, then take them all you want, it is none of my business. If someone posts a thread and asks for opinions I will give mine. But why should it be anyone's business if I don't want to get a flu shot or other vaccines? I can't possibly transmit H1N1 to you if you have been vaccinated, correct? Last time I checked_, w_e live in a Constitutional Republic, not a dictatorship. I do not want the medical industry running my life, either via government or via insurance companies, or via people who demonize me for my decisions.
> 
> If an inventor of a vaccination is treated poorly that's a shame, but that doesn't have anything to do with my personal decision. I'm not part of any "crowd," and I don't view medicine like religion or politics. I simply state my opinions. We don't live in North Korea last time I checked, so I can still speak my mind, right?
> 
> Overall, I do not believe that *most *vaccinations are necessary for viruses like the flu, shingles, hpv, etc. It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. There's a vast difference between a polio epidemic and the seasonal flu, and the milder strain of flu called H1N1. And yes, I might consider a vaccination if and when I felt it was needed, AFTER I DID MY OWN RESEARCH and consulted my traditional medicine physician, and a holistic professional.
> 
> I would venture a guess that some people who are so vehemently pro-vaccination have never seen vaccination damage in children and adults. I have, unfortunately.
> 
> The medical/pharmaceutical industry, and it's products have become a behemoth and is almost like a religion or the gestapo now, taking over people's lives and their decision-making. We used to be independent thinkers in this country, and we actually looked up to people who thought outside the box, and wanted to think differently, now we ridicule them.
> 
> You know Steve, because you are a long-term member here and have been through a lot lately, I'm trying not to get too offended at your posts, which seemed to be angrily directed toward me. I will continue to speak my mind with respect, but I won't attack you personally. I just offer a difference of opinion.[/B]


I certainly do not need or want anyone here or anyplace else feel sorry for me for any reason.

I also I do not feel I have been rude at all toward you anyone in this thread. I have disagreed with you and I will continue to do so on this subject. I do agree, for example, short of a full scale H1N1 pandemic, everyone should be free to do as they please relative to if they should be vaccinated or not. I have tried to get you to discuss specifics as far as what you believe and cite references for those beliefs but I've yet to see anything much more specific than you know doctors, vets, and holistic medicine people who...

There also have been problems in the past with various vaccines. I think it is commonly accepted now that the flu vaccinations they gave back in the mid 1970s were flawed. I also think people were entirely correct to question the use of a very small amount of a preservative called ethylmercury in some influenza formulations given to children. However, that stopped in 2001 and the rates of childhood autism have continued to rise since then and the anti vac believers are still citing mercury as a major cause of autism.

I have a daughter who is an RN and has worked in Africa with several organizations going into the bush and giving vaccinations to villages. Peg's mom was a nurse in the late 1940 into the 1950s (before she had too many kids to continue). Our best friend was a skid row ER nurse at some hospital in San Francisco in the 80s and into the 90s until she could not take the stress. All of these people believe strongly in modern vaccines and have recounted terrible stories of diseases and sickness which are easily preventable by todays vaccines. Our son in law is a eye surgeon and our best family friend is an Orthapedic surgeon, while hardly on the cutting edge of vaccinations, they to are very strong believers. Various family get togethers have included some rather heated debate on this subject as a result!

My concern in any of these types of discussions is the information that gets propagated by the anti vax crowd that is accepted as gospel by most people who don't have the time to learn otherwise. A fair number of those people have 9or will have) children.

In May, The New England Journal of Medicine laid the blame for clusters of disease outbreaks throughout the US squarely at the feet of declining vaccination rates, while nonprofit health care provider Kaiser Permanente reported that unvaccinated children were 23 times more likely to get pertussis, a highly contagious bacterial disease that causes violent coughing and is potentially lethal to infants. In the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, Jason Glanz, an epidemiologist at Kaiser's Institute for Health Research, revealed that the number of reported pertussis cases jumped from 1,000 in 1976 to 26,000.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

The para above was taken directly from this article. I really urge anyone who doubts the effectiveness of modern day vaccines to read this from cover to cover.

I believe passionately (no kidding huh?!) in vaccinations.

If I have offended you or anyone else on this board by my beliefs, I apologize. I have certainly not tried to single you out and honestly at this point, I don't even remember what in one of your posts got me so wound up. I guess whatever it was, it goes without saying that I disagreed.

Anyway, whatever the case, again, I apologize and this will end my posts on the subject.

[/B][/QUOTE]

EDITED:

I don't pity you Steve, I know you've had a rough time lately with Peg's illness.

Since the original intent of the thread was to ask the question yes, or no, I believe I answered it, and gave my reasons. I don't feel the need or have the time to post more references that I already have all over this forum that aided me in my decision not to take vaccines. I am trying to finish my novel by the end of the month. And mostly not interested in more debate because if I provide anecdotal evidence, and my own personal experiences-it is pooh-poohed by the medical community as "evidence." Those of us who deal with illness by holistic methods just don't agree with the traditional medical community on some things, let's leave it at that. I don't really feel the need to discuss it anymore, either. Frankly, I'm tired of the subject. We'll agree to disagree, and move on to something else more important, like our fluffs!


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Nov 8 2009, 05:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848996


> QUOTE





> _It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. _[/B]


Having read thru the many posts here. I 'think' I am the only one who made reference to the polio/smallpox vaccines, (not 'everyone' ) so assume you are refering to my statement. If there were others as well than please excuse on that point.
However, I want to make it clear I certainly am not 'pushing vaccinations' of any kind to anybody and thought I made that clear . Just because I do get them and feel they are a valuable 'tool' doesn't mean I think others who chose not to are wrong.
I respect those who had another opinion for I firmly believe it is a personal choice. 
I simply stated only MY personal opinion in regard to them just as those who are not in favor have stated reasons.... but certainly was not 'pushing' vaccinations.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I went back and re-read all the posts. I didn't even realize you'd posted that. I was talking to my husband about vaccinations-polio and smallpox in particular, during my reply to Steve. What I posted on polio vaccines, was just a rant. Not intended toward you, sorry if it appeared that way.


----------



## Snowball Pie's Mommi

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 07:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849039


> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 8 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849013





> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 09:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848873





> Yes, we still live in a free country and for now we are still able to voice our opinions freely. Exchange of ideas is what made our country great. The reason why penicillin and vaccines were created in the first place is because someone thought that there was a better way to treat a disease.
> 
> I firmly believe from my own past experiences and from talking to M.D.'s, Veterinarians, and holistic health professionals that there are *many *ways to treat disease, both by allopathic methods and holistic methods. If you think vaccinations are the answer and they work so well, then take them all you want, it is none of my business. If someone posts a thread and asks for opinions I will give mine. But why should it be anyone's business if I don't want to get a flu shot or other vaccines? I can't possibly transmit H1N1 to you if you have been vaccinated, correct? Last time I checked_, w_e live in a Constitutional Republic, not a dictatorship. I do not want the medical industry running my life, either via government or via insurance companies, or via people who demonize me for my decisions.
> 
> If an inventor of a vaccination is treated poorly that's a shame, but that doesn't have anything to do with my personal decision. I'm not part of any "crowd," and I don't view medicine like religion or politics. I simply state my opinions. We don't live in North Korea last time I checked, so I can still speak my mind, right?
> 
> Overall, I do not believe that *most *vaccinations are necessary for viruses like the flu, shingles, hpv, etc. It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. There's a vast difference between a polio epidemic and the seasonal flu, and the milder strain of flu called H1N1. And yes, I might consider a vaccination if and when I felt it was needed, AFTER I DID MY OWN RESEARCH and consulted my traditional medicine physician, and a holistic professional.
> 
> I would venture a guess that some people who are so vehemently pro-vaccination have never seen vaccination damage in children and adults. I have, unfortunately.
> 
> The medical/pharmaceutical industry, and it's products have become a behemoth and is almost like a religion or the gestapo now, taking over people's lives and their decision-making. We used to be independent thinkers in this country, and we actually looked up to people who thought outside the box, and wanted to think differently, now we ridicule them.
> 
> You know Steve, because you are a long-term member here and have been through a lot lately, I'm trying not to get too offended at your posts, which seemed to be angrily directed toward me. I will continue to speak my mind with respect, but I won't attack you personally. I just offer a difference of opinion.[/B]


I certainly do not need or want anyone here or anyplace else feel sorry for me for any reason.

I also I do not feel I have been rude at all toward you anyone in this thread. I have disagreed with you and I will continue to do so on this subject. I do agree, for example, short of a full scale H1N1 pandemic, everyone should be free to do as they please relative to if they should be vaccinated or not. I have tried to get you to discuss specifics as far as what you believe and cite references for those beliefs but I've yet to see anything much more specific than you know doctors, vets, and holistic medicine people who...

There also have been problems in the past with various vaccines. I think it is commonly accepted now that the flu vaccinations they gave back in the mid 1970s were flawed. I also think people were entirely correct to question the use of a very small amount of a preservative called ethylmercury in some influenza formulations given to children. However, that stopped in 2001 and the rates of childhood autism have continued to rise since then and the anti vac believers are still citing mercury as a major cause of autism.

I have a daughter who is an RN and has worked in Africa with several organizations going into the bush and giving vaccinations to villages. Peg's mom was a nurse in the late 1940 into the 1950s (before she had too many kids to continue). Our best friend was a skid row ER nurse at some hospital in San Francisco in the 80s and into the 90s until she could not take the stress. All of these people believe strongly in modern vaccines and have recounted terrible stories of diseases and sickness which are easily preventable by todays vaccines. Our son in law is a eye surgeon and our best family friend is an Orthapedic surgeon, while hardly on the cutting edge of vaccinations, they to are very strong believers. Various family get togethers have included some rather heated debate on this subject as a result!

My concern in any of these types of discussions is the information that gets propagated by the anti vax crowd that is accepted as gospel by most people who don't have the time to learn otherwise. A fair number of those people have 9or will have) children.

In May, The New England Journal of Medicine laid the blame for clusters of disease outbreaks throughout the US squarely at the feet of declining vaccination rates, while nonprofit health care provider Kaiser Permanente reported that unvaccinated children were 23 times more likely to get pertussis, a highly contagious bacterial disease that causes violent coughing and is potentially lethal to infants. In the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, Jason Glanz, an epidemiologist at Kaiser's Institute for Health Research, revealed that the number of reported pertussis cases jumped from 1,000 in 1976 to 26,000.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

The para above was taken directly from this article. I really urge anyone who doubts the effectiveness of modern day vaccines to read this from cover to cover.

I believe passionately (no kidding huh?!) in vaccinations.

If I have offended you or anyone else on this board by my beliefs, I apologize. I have certainly not tried to single you out and honestly at this point, I don't even remember what in one of your posts got me so wound up. I guess whatever it was, it goes without saying that I disagreed.

Anyway, whatever the case, again, I apologize and this will end my posts on the subject.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't pity you Steve, I know you've had a rough time lately with Peg's illness.

Since the original intent of the thread was to ask the question yes, or no, I believe I answered it, and gave my reasons. I don't feel the need or have the time to post references that aided me in my decision not to take vaccines. I am trying to finish my novel by the end of the month. 

And mostly, it's anecdotal evidence, and my own personal experiences, which is pooh-poohed on by the medical community as "evidence." Those of us who deal with illness by holistic methods just don't agree with the traditional medical community on some things. I don't really feel the need to discuss it anymore, either. We'll agree to disagree, and move on to something else more important, like our fluffs!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, no!!! I have something to say, too. Please don't go away Steve and Suzan! :eek2_gelb2: Seriously, I just wanted to add that I can see points on both sides that I agree or disagree with. 

Suzan, what stood out to me on one of your posts is ... "Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately." I feel the same way as you do, Suzan. And, unfortunately, I think as a society, that many are in denial of how serious corruption has become. Pharmaceutical companies have had a lot of power in pressuring the FDA to pass many drugs, that were later found to be, or are just recently found to be, very unsafe, or even fatal. Seldane, Celebrex, Ketek, Tequin, Crestor, Vioxx, Cymbalta, and even Leviquin ... just to name a few. The same big name pharmaceutical companies reward doctors who *push* their drugs. That is a fact. I worked with a doctor who was given a cruise. And, I overheard my internist ask the office manager ... how many *bonus points* she still needed ... for her free trip to Spain. So, what does all of this say? In my eyes, it is not a good thing.

Steve, you point out that many vaccines in the past have helped stop the spread of terrible diseases. And, I agree with you on that. And, that is a good thing.

However, I could bet there was not the same kind of political pressure with pharmaceutical companies as there is today. I do believe the FDA is being truthful when they state they are under pressure to okay new drugs that, in reality, they know should be researched longer, before being approved. 

In addition, I do believe that vaccines are probably cause for so many children being diagnosed with autism. I have a dear friend who has a son who has autism. Janet does not go out and protest, but, instead has spent countless hours doing research, volunteering, and working with professionals, who are well known and have many years of experience with autism cases. I have followed the progress of Janet's son over the past twelve years. He became sick after vaccines he recieved as an infant. Janet's son has come a long way because of her devotion and love for her son ... to learn facts about autism. And, yes, there are a lot of mothers and fathers who are out there protesting the vaccines. I commend them for having the guts to not just go along with a crowd ... but, instead, to speak up for what they think is right ... or, wrong. 

As for the H1N1 vaccine. My pulmonary specialist thinks I should get the shot.  I have asthsma, along with the mild MS. He has also told me to call him right away if I am around someone who is sick with a flu (I have had the regular flu shot) One year we took care of our sick granddaughter who had the flu. And, then I caught it and ended up with pneumonia. I don't want to get the H1N1 shot ... because I honestly don't trust how safe it is. However, I feel as though with me it is a Catch-22. The crazy thing is that our county is not expected to have the vaccine until the end of November. 

So, with all of this ... I respect whatever individuals think is best for them. I think this is a tough decision for some, especially with the vaccine being produced so quickly ... and, yet, it's still not available to so many. 

I wish everyone a healthy and happy weekend!


----------



## Maidto2Maltese

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 07:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849056


> QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Nov 8 2009, 05:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848996





> QUOTE





> _It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. _[/B]


Having read thru the many posts here. I 'think' I am the only one who made reference to the polio/smallpox vaccines, (not 'everyone' ) so assume you are refering to my statement. If there were others as well than please excuse on that point.
However, I want to make it clear I certainly am not 'pushing vaccinations' of any kind to anybody and thought I made that clear . Just because I do get them and feel they are a valuable 'tool' doesn't mean I think others who chose not to are wrong.
I respect those who had another opinion for I firmly believe it is a personal choice. 
I simply stated only MY personal opinion in regard to them just as those who are not in favor have stated reasons.... but certainly was not 'pushing' vaccinations.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I went back and re-read all the posts. I didn't even realize you'd posted that. I was talking to my husband about vaccinations-polio and smallpox in particular, during my reply to Steve. What I posted on polio vaccines, was just a rant. Not intended toward you, sorry if it appeared that way.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for clarifying..I just wanted to be certain the intent of my post was not misunderstood. :thumbsup:


----------



## vjw

I received the H1N1 vaccine on Saturday and have had no side effects whatsoever. My arm wasn't even sore like it sometimes gets with the regular seasonal flu shot.

Just wanted to add some additional comments:

First, I hear quite frequently about the greedy "Big Pharma" from the alternative/holistic medicine community. This really irks me in light of the fact that they are a trillon(s) dollar industry. Please don't think for one minute that they are not out to get in your wallet just like any other business. Sometimes they're trying to sell you supplements and products which haven't been proven scientificially or aren't safe enough to be approved by the Food and Drug Administration. That's why they are so critical of the FDA. 

One poster in this thread posted about some "holistic" products like Nozin and Blockade. The primary ingredient in Nozin is alcohol. A few people in the medical community have been using alcohol swabs to swab their nose after they encounter an H1N1 patient. Instead of purchasing Nozin, why not use ingredients you already have at home like alcohol (91%) and cotton swabs. Blockade??? read the disclaimer at the bottom of their web page: 
_* These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent 
any disease.
† In accordance with U.S. regulations, this product is not intended to prevent or treat cold or flu. Human results may differ from laboratory studies.
ViraBloc™ is a trademark of HerbalScience Nutraceuticals, Inc. Patent Pending._


The statement about no deaths from H1N1/H1N1 a lighter version????. The way the statistics have been twisted around on this one really concerns me. H1N1 can be deadly for persons in high risk groups. In some persons, it wrecks havoc on the lungs, plus a lot of the deaths are from secondary pneumonia or other secondary infections because the H1N1 has made their lungs/systems more vulnerable. (H1N1 was the primary illness that caused a secondary illness/condition (like pneumonia) which resulted in an H1N1 related fatality. For example, I'm thinking some in the anti-vaccine/holistic camp would count this as a pneumonia death.) 

The last reports out from the CDC states as of October 31st, there have been 17,838 reported hospitalizations and 672 reported deaths which are H1N1 related. 129 of those deaths were children. Note that this doesn't include physician office visits nor those who don't seek medical care. What's scary is this is only the beginning of the flu season.

Here's an interactive map of H1N1 deaths by state:

Link to Map

I agree that for the majority of people who have had H1N1, it's been similiar to the seasonal flu and the worst of it is that you are febrile and are miserable for the duration of it. One difference about H1N1 in the area I live has been the contagiousness and the volumes of people who are sick. We've been hit hard with H1N1. Health care workers have been stressed to the max and employers/managers (including my husband) have lost A LOT of productivity because of workforce illness due to H1N1. Also, I'm sure it's overwhelming for the health insurance companies who have had to pay for the cost of health care for H1N1 patients.

We ARE having a lull in H1N1 right now, but some of the reports I'm reading state that most flus come in waves and there may be several peaks before this is over. Some have stated the deadliest part of 1918 flu was the third wave.

I'm not totally against alternative/holistic medicine as I do use supplements and treatments for both me and my pets which have been scientifically proven to work and are FDA approved.

There was an article on MSNBC's site today that addresses some of the questions about the H1N1 vaccine.

Link to MSNBC's "Is the Swine Flu Shot As Safe . . . ."



Joy


----------



## Nikki's Mom

I I'm glad you had no side effects from the shot. _


That's why they are so critical of the FDA.

_That is not why people are critical of the FDA. There are too many reasons why people are critical of the FDA to list here and I just don't have the time. Most supplement manufacturers are not interested in FDA approval, or care to have anything to do with the FDA_. 

_As if the FDA and the Pharmaceutical companies can stand behind "independent" testing and peer review articles, which in many cases are funded by the companies themselves, or via university grants. The conflict of interest is enormous in this field. As if the FDA has never approved anything harmful?_ 

_Greed isn't limited to Big Pharma. It is everywhere, so of course it is in the supplement industry as well. Pharmaceutical companies have a LOT more power, and many lobbyists in DC, which make them all the more powerful than supplement companies. Insurance companies will pay for pharmaceuticals, not supplements, which denotes an approval mentality of pharmaceuticals across the board over supplements. So who is more powerful?

Let's not assume that all people who choose holistic health embrace ALL supplement companies, and ALL alternative medicine. Let's not lump people into groups or "sides." I've done years of research on holistic remedies and limit my choices to a few select products and consider some others to be "snake oil," same as I look at some synthetic drugs. I occasionally take an asprin when I get a bad headache, or a Pepcid if I have bad reflux. So let's not assume that there are necessarily "sides" that we must take. 

I never said that there were no deaths from H1N1. I said that it was a milder flu than some seasonal flu.

 _[url]http://article.wn.com/view/2009/09/30/H1N1_flu_Milder_than_expected_but_apparently_widespread/_[/url]_

__
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any diseas_e.

_In accordance with U.S. regulations, this product is not intended to prevent or treat cold or flu. Human results may differ from laboratory studies._
_
_Every supplement* HAS* to say that now by law now, and they may never claim that a product can prevent/treat a specific illness like cold or flu - even if it is true, or the company will be shut down. If I tell you in a forum post that a supplement will cure the flu, the FDA police may speak to me and the forum owner about my statements, 

I know for a fact that there are supplements that do treat and cure disease, but I can't even say that here, or anywhere else on the internet. It saddens me, as there are people out there whose quality of life could be so much better if they looked into holistic medicine, but when they read that disclaimer and listen to naysayers, they are discouraged and afraid. Fear is a powerful motivater. What about all of the disclaimers/side effects from FDA approved synthetic drugs listed in their fine print? Which is worse? 

My first choice to treat illness will be a holistic choice, so I am coming from a different worldview than someone who embraces allopathic medicine as their first choice. If you choose to use allopathic methods like vaccinations and Tamiflu, that is your decision. I have my concerns about these things, and when asked my opinion-like when the person who originally posted this topic asked for opinions, I will give it, but I am not telling anyone else to think like me or do what I do without doing their own research.

I mean no offense. I'm stating a viewpoint.


----------



## vjw

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 01:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848930


> QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 8 2009, 01:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848921





> I'll give you another perspective...and I mean it with good intentions. Just something to think about for those of you who choose not to vaccinate.
> 
> If you come down with h1n1 b/c you haven't been vaccinated and say you go to the ER b/c you need medical attention. Okay..now add maybe a few more. Now add my diabetic daughter who HAS been vaccinated but has come down with say...a stomach flu and cannot hold anything down and her blood sugars are through the roof. We need to hit the ER b/c this can turn deadly to my daughter quite easily. The ER waiting room is full of people ..and they must wade through and prioritize who goes first. H1N1 has proven to be deadly. So is Diabetic Ketoacidosis. Which of the patients gets treated first? If my daughter gets treated first b/c she can slip into DKA quickly..and you or your family member who hasn't gotten vaccinated for h1n1...has to wait ...how would you feel? I know that if my daughter goes into DKA b/c the ER is too busy w/ h1n1 people who had the choice to vaccinate...I think I might turn into a mother bear and get angry. Is that fair? I don't know but type 1 diabetes is not preventable and no vaccination for it, but there is one for h1n1. So ya, in that circumstance I think I might have to say WHY don't you vaccinate if you had the choice?
> 
> Unfortunately these are the things I MUST think about as a parent of a high risk child. Sad but true. :smheat: Again..I'm not looking for a fight, just something that a parent like me MUST think about.[/B]


I understand where you are coming from. My mother had diabetes. However.

*H1N1 has not proven to be deadly. Overall, it has been proven to be a much milder strain of flu than the average seasonal flu.* And secondly, it would be highly unlikely, almost a zero chance that I would ever go to the emergency room for flu complications. I have no medical insurance, and I probably would be examined LAST because of that. Anyway, if I were ill, I'd see my doctor - who is a very close friend, and who would treat me immediately, day or night. 

Vaccinations make me ill. I am extremely sensitive to all chemicals and preservatives, including those in vaccines. If I were to take a flu vaccine, I would put myself at risk for even more immune system issues than I already have. I had a vaccination 20 years ago that left me quite ill. I'm not risking taking another one if I can help it.

So should I choose to become ill from a vaccine because of the extremely remote possibility that I might find myself in the emergency room and get treated before someone else? And whose decision is it to triage patients in a hospital? How can you blame the patient for that? How do you know that all vaccines work, all the time? What if you took a flu shot and got the flu anyway? There are too many variables here, although I appreciate where you are coming from. 

I have only had the flu *once* in my entire life - 12 years ago - *the year I had a flu shot.* At the urging of my former employer.
[/B][/QUOTE]


You're right, Nikki's Mom, you didn't say there had been no deaths from H1N1, but what you said was H1N1 hasn't been proven to be deadly and that it's been proven to be a milder strain of flu.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (vjw @ Nov 9 2009, 05:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849345


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 01:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848930





> QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 8 2009, 01:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848921





> I'll give you another perspective...and I mean it with good intentions. Just something to think about for those of you who choose not to vaccinate.
> 
> If you come down with h1n1 b/c you haven't been vaccinated and say you go to the ER b/c you need medical attention. Okay..now add maybe a few more. Now add my diabetic daughter who HAS been vaccinated but has come down with say...a stomach flu and cannot hold anything down and her blood sugars are through the roof. We need to hit the ER b/c this can turn deadly to my daughter quite easily. The ER waiting room is full of people ..and they must wade through and prioritize who goes first. H1N1 has proven to be deadly. So is Diabetic Ketoacidosis. Which of the patients gets treated first? If my daughter gets treated first b/c she can slip into DKA quickly..and you or your family member who hasn't gotten vaccinated for h1n1...has to wait ...how would you feel? I know that if my daughter goes into DKA b/c the ER is too busy w/ h1n1 people who had the choice to vaccinate...I think I might turn into a mother bear and get angry. Is that fair? I don't know but type 1 diabetes is not preventable and no vaccination for it, but there is one for h1n1. So ya, in that circumstance I think I might have to say WHY don't you vaccinate if you had the choice?
> 
> Unfortunately these are the things I MUST think about as a parent of a high risk child. Sad but true. :smheat: Again..I'm not looking for a fight, just something that a parent like me MUST think about.[/B]


I understand where you are coming from. My mother had diabetes. However.

*H1N1 has not proven to be deadly. Overall, it has been proven to be a much milder strain of flu than the average seasonal flu.* And secondly, it would be highly unlikely, almost a zero chance that I would ever go to the emergency room for flu complications. I have no medical insurance, and I probably would be examined LAST because of that. Anyway, if I were ill, I'd see my doctor - who is a very close friend, and who would treat me immediately, day or night. 

Vaccinations make me ill. I am extremely sensitive to all chemicals and preservatives, including those in vaccines. If I were to take a flu vaccine, I would put myself at risk for even more immune system issues than I already have. I had a vaccination 20 years ago that left me quite ill. I'm not risking taking another one if I can help it.

So should I choose to become ill from a vaccine because of the extremely remote possibility that I might find myself in the emergency room and get treated before someone else? And whose decision is it to triage patients in a hospital? How can you blame the patient for that? How do you know that all vaccines work, all the time? What if you took a flu shot and got the flu anyway? There are too many variables here, although I appreciate where you are coming from. 

I have only had the flu *once* in my entire life - 12 years ago - *the year I had a flu shot.* At the urging of my former employer.
[/B][/QUOTE]


You're right, Nikki's Mom, you didn't say there had been no deaths from H1N1, but what you said was H1N1 hasn't been proven to be deadly and that it's been proven to be a milder strain of flu.
[/B][/QUOTE]


It might get worse, who knows? It certainly is bad in Ukraine right now. Hopefully things will level out there. 

BTW, I love your siggy photo!!!


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Snowball Pie's Mommi @ Nov 8 2009, 08:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849069


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 07:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849039





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 8 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849013





> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 8 2009, 09:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=848873





> Yes, we still live in a free country and for now we are still able to voice our opinions freely. Exchange of ideas is what made our country great. The reason why penicillin and vaccines were created in the first place is because someone thought that there was a better way to treat a disease.
> 
> I firmly believe from my own past experiences and from talking to M.D.'s, Veterinarians, and holistic health professionals that there are *many *ways to treat disease, both by allopathic methods and holistic methods. If you think vaccinations are the answer and they work so well, then take them all you want, it is none of my business. If someone posts a thread and asks for opinions I will give mine. But why should it be anyone's business if I don't want to get a flu shot or other vaccines? I can't possibly transmit H1N1 to you if you have been vaccinated, correct? Last time I checked_, w_e live in a Constitutional Republic, not a dictatorship. I do not want the medical industry running my life, either via government or via insurance companies, or via people who demonize me for my decisions.
> 
> If an inventor of a vaccination is treated poorly that's a shame, but that doesn't have anything to do with my personal decision. I'm not part of any "crowd," and I don't view medicine like religion or politics. I simply state my opinions. We don't live in North Korea last time I checked, so I can still speak my mind, right?
> 
> Overall, I do not believe that *most *vaccinations are necessary for viruses like the flu, shingles, hpv, etc. It's funny how everyone drags out stories of polio and smallpox when they want to push vaccinations. There's a vast difference between a polio epidemic and the seasonal flu, and the milder strain of flu called H1N1. And yes, I might consider a vaccination if and when I felt it was needed, AFTER I DID MY OWN RESEARCH and consulted my traditional medicine physician, and a holistic professional.
> 
> I would venture a guess that some people who are so vehemently pro-vaccination have never seen vaccination damage in children and adults. I have, unfortunately.
> 
> The medical/pharmaceutical industry, and it's products have become a behemoth and is almost like a religion or the gestapo now, taking over people's lives and their decision-making. We used to be independent thinkers in this country, and we actually looked up to people who thought outside the box, and wanted to think differently, now we ridicule them.
> 
> You know Steve, because you are a long-term member here and have been through a lot lately, I'm trying not to get too offended at your posts, which seemed to be angrily directed toward me. I will continue to speak my mind with respect, but I won't attack you personally. I just offer a difference of opinion.[/B]


I certainly do not need or want anyone here or anyplace else feel sorry for me for any reason.

I also I do not feel I have been rude at all toward you anyone in this thread. I have disagreed with you and I will continue to do so on this subject. I do agree, for example, short of a full scale H1N1 pandemic, everyone should be free to do as they please relative to if they should be vaccinated or not. I have tried to get you to discuss specifics as far as what you believe and cite references for those beliefs but I've yet to see anything much more specific than you know doctors, vets, and holistic medicine people who...

There also have been problems in the past with various vaccines. I think it is commonly accepted now that the flu vaccinations they gave back in the mid 1970s were flawed. I also think people were entirely correct to question the use of a very small amount of a preservative called ethylmercury in some influenza formulations given to children. However, that stopped in 2001 and the rates of childhood autism have continued to rise since then and the anti vac believers are still citing mercury as a major cause of autism.

I have a daughter who is an RN and has worked in Africa with several organizations going into the bush and giving vaccinations to villages. Peg's mom was a nurse in the late 1940 into the 1950s (before she had too many kids to continue). Our best friend was a skid row ER nurse at some hospital in San Francisco in the 80s and into the 90s until she could not take the stress. All of these people believe strongly in modern vaccines and have recounted terrible stories of diseases and sickness which are easily preventable by todays vaccines. Our son in law is a eye surgeon and our best family friend is an Orthapedic surgeon, while hardly on the cutting edge of vaccinations, they to are very strong believers. Various family get togethers have included some rather heated debate on this subject as a result!

My concern in any of these types of discussions is the information that gets propagated by the anti vax crowd that is accepted as gospel by most people who don't have the time to learn otherwise. A fair number of those people have 9or will have) children.

In May, The New England Journal of Medicine laid the blame for clusters of disease outbreaks throughout the US squarely at the feet of declining vaccination rates, while nonprofit health care provider Kaiser Permanente reported that unvaccinated children were 23 times more likely to get pertussis, a highly contagious bacterial disease that causes violent coughing and is potentially lethal to infants. In the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, Jason Glanz, an epidemiologist at Kaiser's Institute for Health Research, revealed that the number of reported pertussis cases jumped from 1,000 in 1976 to 26,000.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

The para above was taken directly from this article. I really urge anyone who doubts the effectiveness of modern day vaccines to read this from cover to cover.

I believe passionately (no kidding huh?!) in vaccinations.

If I have offended you or anyone else on this board by my beliefs, I apologize. I have certainly not tried to single you out and honestly at this point, I don't even remember what in one of your posts got me so wound up. I guess whatever it was, it goes without saying that I disagreed.

Anyway, whatever the case, again, I apologize and this will end my posts on the subject.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't pity you Steve, I know you've had a rough time lately with Peg's illness.

Since the original intent of the thread was to ask the question yes, or no, I believe I answered it, and gave my reasons. I don't feel the need or have the time to post references that aided me in my decision not to take vaccines. I am trying to finish my novel by the end of the month. 

And mostly, it's anecdotal evidence, and my own personal experiences, which is pooh-poohed on by the medical community as "evidence." Those of us who deal with illness by holistic methods just don't agree with the traditional medical community on some things. I don't really feel the need to discuss it anymore, either. We'll agree to disagree, and move on to something else more important, like our fluffs!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, no!!! I have something to say, too. Please don't go away Steve and Suzan! :eek2_gelb2: Seriously, I just wanted to add that I can see points on both sides that I agree or disagree with. 

Suzan, what stood out to me on one of your posts is ... "Money and special interests/corruption play a large part in every facet of our world today, unfortunately." I feel the same way as you do, Suzan. And, unfortunately, I think as a society, that many are in denial of how serious corruption has become. Pharmaceutical companies have had a lot of power in pressuring the FDA to pass many drugs, that were later found to be, or are just recently found to be, very unsafe, or even fatal. Seldane, Celebrex, Ketek, Tequin, Crestor, Vioxx, Cymbalta, and even Leviquin ... just to name a few. The same big name pharmaceutical companies reward doctors who *push* their drugs. That is a fact. I worked with a doctor who was given a cruise. And, I overheard my internist ask the office manager ... how many *bonus points* she still needed ... for her free trip to Spain. So, what does all of this say? In my eyes, it is not a good thing.

Steve, you point out that many vaccines in the past have helped stop the spread of terrible diseases. And, I agree with you on that. And, that is a good thing.

However, I could bet there was not the same kind of political pressure with pharmaceutical companies as there is today. I do believe the FDA is being truthful when they state they are under pressure to okay new drugs that, in reality, they know should be researched longer, before being approved. 

In addition, I do believe that vaccines are probably cause for so many children being diagnosed with autism. I have a dear friend who has a son who has autism. Janet does not go out and protest, but, instead has spent countless hours doing research, volunteering, and working with professionals, who are well known and have many years of experience with autism cases. I have followed the progress of Janet's son over the past twelve years. He became sick after vaccines he recieved as an infant. Janet's son has come a long way because of her devotion and love for her son ... to learn facts about autism. And, yes, there are a lot of mothers and fathers who are out there protesting the vaccines. I commend them for having the guts to not just go along with a crowd ... but, instead, to speak up for what they think is right ... or, wrong. 

As for the H1N1 vaccine. My pulmonary specialist thinks I should get the shot. I have asthsma, along with the mild MS. He has also told me to call him right away if I am around someone who is sick with a flu (I have had the regular flu shot) One year we took care of our sick granddaughter who had the flu. And, then I caught it and ended up with pneumonia. I don't want to get the H1N1 shot ... because I honestly don't trust how safe it is. However, I feel as though with me it is a Catch-22. The crazy thing is that our county is not expected to have the vaccine until the end of November. 

So, with all of this ... I respect whatever individuals think is best for them. I think this is a tough decision for some, especially with the vaccine being produced so quickly ... and, yet, it's still not available to so many. 

I wish everyone a healthy and happy weekend!  
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost:


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## Nikki's Mom

I would like to correct something I said in an earlier post. I said that the H1N1 flu has *not yet proven to be deadly*. That is incorrect. There have been reports of deaths from H1N1 all over the world. However I've read that WHO (World Health Org) has said that an in-person or phone diagnosis is fine, not everyone needs to be tested to see if it is swine flu or not. That concerns me, because we will never really know the real numbers.

In the second part of my post I said that H1N1is a milder strain of flu than seasonal influenza. From all of the things I have read, this seems to be true overall. According to statistics, 36,000 people die per year from influenza. I don't know how true that is, but if it is true, then so far H1N1 isn't as deadly, at least in the US. In Ukraine, it looks like either a mutation has happened, or something else is going on, so things are pretty serious there. If it is a virus mutation, then a Swine flu vaccination won't work, as far as I know.

I am sorry if my thoughts on health/illness might offend some people. There are a lot of reasons why I practice holistic health, and I don't wish to force my way of life on anyone else. If you feel that it is important to get a vaccination, then do so. I truly hope that you make that decision for yourself after doing some research on it and not let the media hype affect you either way. 

If you're like me and don't take vaccinations and want to go the holistic route I'm sure you'll take elderberry syrup (Sambucol or Sambucus) which is yummy, BTW! and 5000 iu of Vitamin D3, which is cheap, and 1000 mg of Vitamin C to keep your immune system in good shape, and you'll wash your hands a lot.


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## Nikki's Mom

More info for you.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...prss=rss_health


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## vjw

I would recommend that one read the entire article. At the end of the article, it states Ms. Soghomonian got her daughter vaccinated.


Link to entire article







Joy


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (vjw @ Nov 10 2009, 11:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849562


> I would recommend that one read the entire article. At the end of the article, it states Ms. Soghomonian got her daughter vaccinated.
> 
> 
> Link to entire article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joy[/B]


The entire article was in my link, you just have to click on the multiple page numbers. :biggrin:


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## Nikki's Mom

Speaking of conflict of interest, here's a pasted article with an example. I have no opinion on this article, as I don't know much about the doctor mentioned in it, but I believe that he has a TV show, or is a regular guest on The Oprah Winfrey show? 


*
All content posted on this site is commentary or opinion and is protected under Free Speech. Truth Publishing LLC takes sole responsibility for all content. Truth Publishing sells no hard products and earns no money from the recommendation of products. NaturalNews.com is presented for educational and commentary purposes only and should not be construed as professional advice from any licensed practitioner. Truth Publishing assumes no responsibility for the use or misuse of this material. For the full terms of usage of this material, visit www.NaturalNews.com/terms.shtml </span>*


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## lovesophie

^^^ Ugh, I've never liked that Dr. Oz guy. I've always thought he seemed so insincere...

Here's some more info on vaccinations, if you're interested:

BASIC FACTS TO KNOW ABOUT VACCINATIONS

1. Vaccines are toxic.

Vaccines contain substances poisonous to humans (i.e. mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum, etc.) Vaccine package inserts contain this and other information required by law to be disclosed to the public. Although these inserts are produced for consumers, doctors do not make them available to their patients.

Vaccines are grown on and contain foreign tissue and altered genetic material of both human and animal origin. 

2. Immunization (the act of injecting vaccines) depresses and disables brain and immune function. Honest, unbiased scientific investigation has shown vaccinations to be a causative factor in many illnesses including:

Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (aka SIDS, crib or cot death)

developmental disorders (autism, seizures, mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, etc.)

immune deficiency (i.e. AIDS, Epstein Barre Syndrome, etc.)

degenerative disease (i.e. muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, cancer, leukemia, lupus, fibromyalgia, etc.) 

3. The high rate of adverse vaccine reactions is being ignored and denied by conventional medicine.

Prior to 1990, doctors were not legally required to report adverse reactions to the Center for Disease Control (CDC).

Adverse reactions are considered "normal", are ignored or diagnosed as other diseases. Even with this poor system, reported damage is substantial.

Despite their current legal obligation, less than 10% of doctors report the damage they witness to the CDC.

Throughout history, many prominent medical and non-medical health professionals around the world have voiced their vehement opposition to vaccination calling it scientific fraud. 

4. Mass Vaccination Programs systematically and recklessly endanger the public while disregarding our rights.

Since vaccination breaks the skin, it is technically a surgery. All surgeries by law require informed consent. Informed consent is rarely attained before vaccines are administered.

Doctors vaccinate the unwitting and uninformed. The vaccine manufacturers' package inserts which contain biased industry claims and the bare minimum required by law to reveal are not routinely made available to consumers so that they can make a more informed choice.

Double-talk and unethical enforcement such as threats, intimidation and coercion are used to ensure vaccination compliance. 

5. There is no proof that vaccinations are safe or effective.

There are no control group studies. Authorities consider that "to not vaccinate" is unethical and have refused to study unvaccinated volunteers. If control studies were done according to honest science, vaccination would be outlawed.

Studies which have been done are not designed to eliminate the examiners bias. Authorities who compile and report disease statistics work closely with and have a vested interest in companies which produce the vaccines. In other industries, this kind of bias is not tolerated. Injuries and deaths in these studies are attributed to anything but vaccination to skew the results and make it appear that vaccines have some merit. 

6. Laws allow drug companies to violate the public trust.

In private vaccine damage suits, information is revealed condemning vaccines as deadly.

Vaccine manufacturers use "gag orders" as a leverage tool in vaccine damage legal settlements to restrict the plaintiff from disclosing to the public the truth about the dangerous nature of vaccines. Our government has allowed these unethical tactics to be used which jeopardize public welfare. 

7. The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1987 is a pacifier.

This compensation program pretends to acknowledge the existence of vaccine damage by making "right" the wrongs done. Nothing in this Act attempts to avert these adverse events from happening in the future.

This Act is the result of vaccine producers pressuring the government to "immunize" them from private lawsuits which can run an average of $4 million per case.

The fund is made up of tax added into the cost to the consumer of each vaccine, thereby making vaccine consumers pay for one another's and perhaps their own injury; the vaccine manufacturers have made themselves quite "immune" from accountability. In recent years it has become even more difficult to be compensated through this program due to the parameters for determining vaccine damage changing and coroners now ruling out vaccine damage and charging the parents with Shaken Baby Syndrome. 

8. Private insurance companies, which do the best liability studies, have totally abandoned coverage for damage to life and property due to:

Acts of God

Nuclear war and nuclear power plant accidents

Vaccination 

9. Vaccination is not emergency medicine.

It is claimed that vaccines avert a possible future risk and yet people are pressured to decide on the spot. A doctor's use of fear and intimidation to force compliance is not ethical. Vaccines are drugs with potential serious adverse reactions. Time and forethought should be given before a decision is made. 

10. There is no law enforcing vaccination for babies or anyone else.

Vaccination is linked with school attendance but is not compulsory. Exemptions from vaccinations, although restricted and monitored, are part of every state public health law and can be expanded by public pressure.

Departments of Health, Education and the American Medical Association personnel profit from the sale of vaccines. They keep the existence of and details about exemptions relatively unknown. 

About the Book

Dr. Tenpenny provides an in-depth examination of the adverse reactions to vaccines. With incisive reasoning and over 8,000 hours of research over the course of eight years in preparation for writing this book, Saying No To Vaccines is an eye-opening educational guide which will give parents and adults the information they need to have confidence when they say no to vaccines. Citations taken directly from CDC documents and respected peer-reviewed journals are facts not easily refuted by conventional pro-vaccination dogma.

Most people are not aware that they should be asking the question - Should I vaccinate?

Since the first mandatory vaccination law was passed in the U.S. (1903), the belief in vaccination has been promoted by a pro-vaccine government, a pro-vaccine school system and a pro-vaccine western allopathic medicine industry.

The government:

The U.S. government is the largest purchaser of vaccines in the country. In fact, nearly 30 percent of the Centers for Disease Control’s (CDC) annual budget is composed of purchasing vaccines and ensuring vaccination is completed for every child in the country.

Laws have been passed to protect vaccine manufactures from liability while at the same time, state laws require parents to inject their children with up to 100 vaccination antigens prior to entering school. If a vaccine injury – or death – occurs after a vaccine, parents cannot sue the doctor, the drug company or the government; they are required to petition the Vaccine Court for damages, which can take years and is often denied. 

The schools:

Each state has school vaccination laws which require children of appropriate age to be vaccinated for several communicable diseases. State vaccination laws mandate that children be vaccinated prior to being allowed to attend public or private schools. Failure to vaccinate children can result in children being denied from attending school, civil fines and criminal penalties against their parents or guardians. What schools don’t tell parents is that in every state, an exemption exists allowing parents to legally refuse vaccines and allowing children to attend school. 

The medical industry:

The medical industry advocates vaccines, often demanding that parents vaccinate their children or be dismissed from the medical practice. A sizable portion of a pediatrician’s income is derived from insurance reimbursement for vaccinations. The ever-expanding vaccination schedule that includes increasingly more expensive vaccines has been a source of increased revenues for vaccinating doctors. Unfortunately, many doctors have not read the package insert for the vaccines which they so readily inject into their little patients. They are not aware of the full range of chemicals coming through that needle. As a parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, brother, sister or legal guardian you have the right to know…_and to choose_.

Source

I haven't read the book, but it does look like an interesting read!


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## Max & Rocky

I'm sure I'm going to believe someone who appears on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and who has shown up on the The Alex Jones Show. :wacko1: 


By all means folks, quit vaccinating your kids for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc and tell everyone you know not to get those vaccinations. Sounds like a real plan to me!


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## Nikki's Mom

I don't think anyone here is asking you or anyone else to believe anything. 

They're just voicing their own opinions on the subject.




QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 08:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849752


> I'm sure I'm going to believe someone who appears on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and who has shown up on the The Alex Jones Show. :wacko1:
> 
> 
> By all means folks, quit vaccinating your kids for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc and tell everyone you know not to get those vaccinations. Sounds like a real plan to me![/B]


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## myfairlacy

I like Dr. Oz when I get to watch him. I've never seen him promote vaccines but I don't get to watch his show very often either. I'm really surprised he promotes vaccines...he always has a lot of interesting info on alternative medications and such so that surprises me.

I don't have a problem with vaccinating for highly contagious highly fatal/disfiguring diseases but I do have a problem with vaccinating for diseases that our immune system can usually fight off just fine on it's own.


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## lovesophie

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 05:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849752


> I'm sure I'm going to believe someone who appears on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and who has shown up on the The Alex Jones Show. :wacko1:
> 
> 
> By all means folks, quit vaccinating your kids for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc and tell everyone you know not to get those vaccinations. Sounds like a real plan to me![/B]


LOL, who the heck is George Noory, and what the heck is The Alex Jones Show? How exactly is this relevant? LOL. 

I would hope that we could do better than show sarcasm toward those we don't necessarily agree with, but I guess you just can't have it your way all the time.  I just don't appreciate sarcasm when unwarranted, that's all. 

I hope you have a swell life! :biggrin:


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## ilovemymaltese

I just got the swine flu shot. At my school many people in my classes has had it/have it now. I also have a weak immune system as I don't get a lot of sleep. And occassionally go and volunteer at daycares. Kids of all ages are gross and spread germs easily. LOL And I can't risk getting sick and missing days of school. And even IF dogs can't get swine flu, if I got sick, I would probably live. But if Gigi's tiny body got sick, she probably won't. Cats, ferrets can get it, not enough studies have gone into why dogs can't get the swine flu. I don't want to ever risk Gigi getting sick.


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## Nikki's Mom

I think Steve is talking about Dr. Sherry Tenpenny appearing as a guest on the radio show of Alex Jones, a radio talk show guy. 

Steve if you are going to try and lump folks into "groups" or "sides" then what do we do with Judge Andrew Napolitano from Fox News? He calls Alex Jones a friend, and has appeared on his radio show several times. Is Napolitano on your list of "guilt by association" bad people, too? I personally don't care for Alex Jones, but why is he even relevant to the discussion on this thread? 

Once again, why force this thread into a war of words? Can people here not present information you don't agree with, or is that now taboo in this forum? 



QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Nov 10 2009, 09:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849773


> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 05:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849752





> I'm sure I'm going to believe someone who appears on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and who has shown up on the The Alex Jones Show. :wacko1:
> 
> 
> By all means folks, quit vaccinating your kids for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc and tell everyone you know not to get those vaccinations. Sounds like a real plan to me![/B]


LOL, who the heck is George Noory, and what the heck is The Alex Jones Show? How exactly is this relevant? LOL. 

I would hope that we could do better than show sarcasm toward those we don't necessarily agree with, but I guess you just can't have it your way all the time.  I just don't appreciate sarcasm when unwarranted, that's all. 

I hope you have a swell life! :biggrin: 
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Max & Rocky

QUOTE (Nikkei's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 07:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849784


> I think Steve is talking about Dr. Sherry Tenpenny appearing as a guest on the radio show of Alex Jones, a radio talk show guy.
> 
> Steve if you are going to try and lump folks into "groups" or "sides" then what do we do with Judge Andrew Neapolitan from Fox News? He calls Alex Jones a friend, and has appeared on his radio show several times. Is Napolitano on your list of "guilt by association" bad people, too? I personally don't care for Alex Jones, but why is he even relevant to the discussion on this thread?
> 
> Once again, why force this thread into a war of words? Can people here not present information you don't agree with, or is that now taboo in this forum?
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Nov 10 2009, 09:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849773





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 05:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849752





> I'm sure I'm going to believe someone who appears on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and who has shown up on the The Alex Jones Show. :wacko1:
> 
> 
> By all means folks, quit vaccinating your kids for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc and tell everyone you know not to get those vaccinations. Sounds like a real plan to me![/B]


LOL, who the heck is George Noory, and what the heck is The Alex Jones Show? How exactly is this relevant? LOL. 

I would hope that we could do better than show sarcasm toward those we don't necessarily agree with, but I guess you just can't have it your way all the time.  I just don't appreciate sarcasm when unwarranted, that's all. 

I hope you have a swell life! :biggrin: 
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


You folks can clearly talk about whatever you want. Have I been deleting everyones posts again?  

I think the issue may be that some of you just don't like people questioning some of the stuff you post.

If you don't know about George Noory and Alex Jones, maybe you should consider listening to their shows and learn about the types of people they routinely have on and the types of things they regularly espouse. Ever wonder why George Noory is on in the middle of the night?

Actually, I love a little well placed sarcasm and I believe it is especially called for and even needed in threads where one says vaccines are toxic, immunization depresses and disables brain and immune function, there is no proof that vaccinations are safe or effective, etc and does so as if all of this were fact.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 09:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849788


> QUOTE (Nikkei's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 07:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849784





> I think Steve is talking about Dr. Sherry Tenpenny appearing as a guest on the radio show of Alex Jones, a radio talk show guy.
> 
> Steve if you are going to try and lump folks into "groups" or "sides" then what do we do with Judge Andrew Neapolitan from Fox News? He calls Alex Jones a friend, and has appeared on his radio show several times. Is Napolitano on your list of "guilt by association" bad people, too? I personally don't care for Alex Jones, but why is he even relevant to the discussion on this thread?
> 
> Once again, why force this thread into a war of words? Can people here not present information you don't agree with, or is that now taboo in this forum?
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Nov 10 2009, 09:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849773





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 05:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849752





> I'm sure I'm going to believe someone who appears on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and who has shown up on the The Alex Jones Show. :wacko1:
> 
> 
> By all means folks, quit vaccinating your kids for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc and tell everyone you know not to get those vaccinations. Sounds like a real plan to me![/B]


LOL, who the heck is George Noory, and what the heck is The Alex Jones Show? How exactly is this relevant? LOL. 

I would hope that we could do better than show sarcasm toward those we don't necessarily agree with, but I guess you just can't have it your way all the time.  I just don't appreciate sarcasm when unwarranted, that's all. 

I hope you have a swell life! :biggrin: 
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


You folks can clearly talk about whatever you want. Have I been deleting everyones posts again?  

I think the issue may be that some of you just don't like people questioning some of the stuff you post.

If you don't know about George Noory and Alex Jones, maybe you should consider listening to their shows and learn about the types of people they routinely have on and the types of things they regularly espouse. Ever wonder why George Noory is on in the middle of the night?

Actually, I love a little well placed sarcasm and I believe it is especially called for and even needed in threads where one says vaccines are toxic, immunization depresses and disables brain and immune function, there is no proof that vaccinations are safe or effective, etc and does so as if all of this were fact.
[/B][/QUOTE]



Actually Steve, I don't think anyone minds being questioned, but I think that forum posts are supposed to be friendly discussions, not interrogations. You are throwing around names like the controversial Alex Jones and Noory - whom you apparently don't like, in order to demonize Sarah and her post-which didn't even mention those people.

If you are that interested in proving your point, why not calmly and politely address Sarah and engaging her in an exchange of ideas on the points that she made in her post?

If I understand you correctly, you feel that it is okay for you to be rude and sarcastic toward people that you don't agree with? If that is true, there is no point in even trying to have civilized discussions with you here on SM. 

I think I have really had it, folks. I'm seriously thinking of canceling all of my online forum memberships. It seems like it is growing worse by the day. When someone posts an idea, an opinion, or a suggestion that is a little bit different than what "the majority," agrees to be true, they are often attacked. It's rather sad and a little bit scary. I am sure there are some people who would love all the "dissenters" to go away so they could have a big party where no one ever disagreed with them. Weren't there "purges" in Russia in the 1930's that got rid of all the dissenters? The same type of people today who cannot tolerate differences of opinions probably would have run George Washington and Thomas Jefferson out of town for daring to voice dissent.....


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## lovesophie

QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 06:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849788


> You folks can clearly talk about whatever you want. Have I been deleting everyones posts again?
> 
> I think the issue may be that some of you just don't like people questioning some of the stuff you post.
> 
> *LOL, I think this applies to you more than it does to anyone else who has responded to this thread. In all honesty, I don't mind when people disagree with the content of my posts, but do so with tact and grace. If you don't agree with what I post, state your differing opinions in a cordial way, not in a way in which you're being insulting. Unfortunately, you have been nasty, degrading, and defensive toward the people who have presented opposing views in this thread. What a shame.*
> 
> If you don't know about George Noory and Alex Jones, maybe you should consider listening to their shows and learn about the types of people they routinely have on and the types of things they regularly espouse. Ever wonder why George Noory is on in the middle of the night?
> 
> *Your eagerness to dismiss Dr. Tenpenny's credibility due solely to the fact that she was a guest on this show says more about you than it does her-- very sad and closed-minded.*
> 
> Actually, I love a little well placed sarcasm and I believe it is especially called for and even needed in threads where one says vaccines are toxic, immunization depresses and disables brain and immune function, there is no proof that vaccinations are safe or effective, etc and does so as if all of this were fact.
> 
> *LOL, this is something I'd expect to hear from a child, not a grown man. Tell me, how old are you again?  With that said, after reading your posts, it doesn't surprise me that this came from you.*[/B]


*You're #2 on my ignore list. You know what that means, don't you? It means that from this point on, I won't be able to read your threads/posts, unless I decide to un-ignore you, which most likely will not be happening, LOL. 

As I've said before, have a real swell life!*

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 07:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849800


> Actually Steve, I don't think anyone minds being questioned, but I think that forum posts are supposed to be friendly discussions, not interrogations. You are throwing around names like the controversial Alex Jones and Noory - whom you apparently don't like, in order to demonize Sarah and her post-which didn't even mention those people.
> 
> If you are that interested in proving your point, why not calmly and politely address Sarah and engaging her in an exchange of ideas on the points that she made in her post?
> 
> If I understand you correctly, you feel that it is okay for you to be rude and sarcastic toward people that you don't agree with? If that is true, there is no point in even trying to have civilized discussions with you here on SM.
> 
> I think I have really had it, folks. I'm seriously thinking of canceling all of my online forum memberships. It seems like it is growing worse by the day. When someone posts an idea, an opinion, or a suggestion that is a little bit different than what "the majority," agrees to be true, they are often attacked. It's rather sad and a little bit scary. I am sure there are some people who would love all the "dissenters" to go away so they could have a big party where no one ever disagreed with them. Weren't there "purges" in Russia in the 1930's that got rid of all the dissenters? The same type of people today who cannot tolerate differences of opinions probably would have run George Washington and Thomas Jefferson out of town for daring to voice dissent.....[/B]


Thanks, Suzan. I always appreciate your point of view on these "controversial" topics, and I'd hate for you to leave SM (I'm sure I speak for many). Don't let a few rotten apples bring you down. I know I won't.


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## puppy lover

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 10:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849800


> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 09:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849788





> QUOTE (Nikkei's Mom @ Nov 10 2009, 07:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849784





> I think Steve is talking about Dr. Sherry Tenpenny appearing as a guest on the radio show of Alex Jones, a radio talk show guy.
> 
> Steve if you are going to try and lump folks into "groups" or "sides" then what do we do with Judge Andrew Neapolitan from Fox News? He calls Alex Jones a friend, and has appeared on his radio show several times. Is Napolitano on your list of "guilt by association" bad people, too? I personally don't care for Alex Jones, but why is he even relevant to the discussion on this thread?
> 
> Once again, why force this thread into a war of words? Can people here not present information you don't agree with, or is that now taboo in this forum?
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Nov 10 2009, 09:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849773





> QUOTE (Max & Rocky @ Nov 10 2009, 05:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=849752





> I'm sure I'm going to believe someone who appears on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and who has shown up on the The Alex Jones Show. :wacko1:
> 
> 
> By all means folks, quit vaccinating your kids for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc and tell everyone you know not to get those vaccinations. Sounds like a real plan to me![/B]


LOL, who the heck is George Noory, and what the heck is The Alex Jones Show? How exactly is this relevant? LOL. 

I would hope that we could do better than show sarcasm toward those we don't necessarily agree with, but I guess you just can't have it your way all the time.  I just don't appreciate sarcasm when unwarranted, that's all. 

I hope you have a swell life! :biggrin: 
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


You folks can clearly talk about whatever you want. Have I been deleting everyones posts again?  

I think the issue may be that some of you just don't like people questioning some of the stuff you post.

If you don't know about George Noory and Alex Jones, maybe you should consider listening to their shows and learn about the types of people they routinely have on and the types of things they regularly espouse. Ever wonder why George Noory is on in the middle of the night?

Actually, I love a little well placed sarcasm and I believe it is especially called for and even needed in threads where one says vaccines are toxic, immunization depresses and disables brain and immune function, there is no proof that vaccinations are safe or effective, etc and does so as if all of this were fact.
[/B][/QUOTE]



Actually Steve, I don't think anyone minds being questioned, but I think that forum posts are supposed to be friendly discussions, not interrogations. You are throwing around names like the controversial Alex Jones and Noory - whom you apparently don't like, in order to demonize Sarah and her post-which didn't even mention those people.

If you are that interested in proving your point, why not calmly and politely address Sarah and engaging her in an exchange of ideas on the points that she made in her post?

If I understand you correctly, you feel that it is okay for you to be rude and sarcastic toward people that you don't agree with? If that is true, there is no point in even trying to have civilized discussions with you here on SM. 

I think I have really had it, folks. I'm seriously thinking of canceling all of my online forum memberships. It seems like it is growing worse by the day. When someone posts an idea, an opinion, or a suggestion that is a little bit different than what "the majority," agrees to be true, they are often attacked. It's rather sad and a little bit scary. I am sure there are some people who would love all the "dissenters" to go away so they could have a big party where no one ever disagreed with them. Weren't there "purges" in Russia in the 1930's that got rid of all the dissenters? The same type of people today who cannot tolerate differences of opinions probably would have run George Washington and Thomas Jefferson out of town for daring to voice dissent.....
[/B][/QUOTE]

Suzan, do you know this quote?
All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Thirteen years ago I gave my sister books on the dangers of vaccines. She and her doctor husband laughed at me. Most people had never even heard that vaccines could be a problem. Soon after their first born son was vaccinated his behavior changed and he was later diagnosed on the autistic spectrum. While I don't believe that all vaccines are bad for all people I believe most vaccines are bad for most people. As time goes by more and more people are choosing not to vaccinate their children and themselves, and this is a trend that will continue growing until it becomes self-evident that most vaccines are not good for most people. I hope you, Sarah, MyFairLacy, etc. will keep speaking up about these issues. :heart:


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## Nikki's Mom

_Suzan, do you know this quote?
All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
_
Yes, I know that quote well! Ghandi, I believe. 

The vaccination issue is very polarizing, I understand. But there is no reason for the discussion to turn ugly if there are disagreements. My entire family and most of my friends believe in vaccinations. We discuss the pros and cons rationally, but we don't get nasty, except for one niece, who is nasty all the time, lol.

For those of you who want more info, then read the rest of this post. For those of you who have made up their minds, then don't waste your time. I didn't want to post this originally, as it is mostly anecdotal evidence and personal experience, which the medical community doesn't accept as truth.

I know several families who chose *not* to vaccinate their kids and they have always been very healthy with none of the usual frequent childhood sniffles etc. The kids are grown now, never been sick, everything's great smart, happy, healthy kids. No runny noses, no ear infections, no nothing. Intelligent, well-balanced, healthy happy kids with great immune systems.

I know one family who vaccinated one kid and not the other. The vaccinated kid is always sick, the other isn't. 

I know other families who have given all the vaccinations and their kids are always sick. Can they attribute it to vaccinations? Maybe, but they'd never accept that, because it might rock their trust in medicine. I understand where they are coming from. I don't agree with them.

I have known a family who have given all the vaccinations and have an autistic child. The child was fine before the shot. 

I know a lady who had a vaccination 3 years ago, and it completely destroyed her health. She can trace it directly to the vaccination

I had a vaccination 20 years ago that wrecked my immune system. 

And I've also known people who have received all the available vaccinations and have not had any health issues from them. Yet.

So here's more info for you. Read it, don't read it, whatever. It is being provided so you can make an informed decision, not to stir up animosity if you disagree. Let's all be rational here. 


Thimerasol. It's not a good thing to inject directly into little bodies. It is finally being phased out-which means, it is still being used to some degree. Why was it there in the first place? How do you trust the manufacturers after they put Thimerasol in vaccinations knowing it was mercury? 

What about the other preservatives that have been used, or might still be used some vaccinations? Ingredients like MSG-highly allergenic, and formaldehyde-which is a carcinogen. What about aborted fetal tissue, or monkey kidney cells in some vaccinations? Can those things directly injected into the body, be completely safe? Perhaps. Sure, a vaccination is a tiny amount of fluid, but still...safe or not, putting those things into my body are rather disconcerting to me on many levels. If you want to read for yourself what is in the flu vaccinations and the safety info, here's a link to the FDA site with the actual package inserts info: LINK. Are most people going to read this before they take the shot? I doubt it. Have most doctors read this info before recommending the shot? I hope so!

Ingredient list of vaccinations: Link.

So I tell others about the ingredients in vaccinations because I think they should know what they are putting into their bodies. Then they can make an INFORMED decision. Is that so crazy and horrible? Shouldn't people know what they are putting into their bodies?

Besides the killed virus, there are preservatives in which I am extremely sensitive to. If I take a vaccine, I will get sick. So instead, I'll build my immune system up to fight the virus, and pass on the preservatives. Am I the only person in the world who is sensitive to the preservatives in a vaccine? I rather doubt it. Do people attribute their chronic immune system issues to the ingredients in a vaccine after they take it? I rather doubt that too. 

So the bottom line for me is, I'd rather risk the illness itself than get sick from a vaccination. When asked my opinion on vaccinations I tell them that I'd rather build my immune system than take them, and maybe you might consider doing the same. Does that make me a crazy, horrible person? Perhaps in some people's eyes.


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## Max & Rocky

Clearly some of you aren't going to listen and to each his own, but when I started reading this thread, there were information being thrown around by at least some that caused the flag to go up with me, since it was the same sort of justification given by many anti vaccinators. I assumed that the people posting the info were therefore, part of that crowd. I was immediately called on that for making assumptions about certain people's posts who I do not know. 

I asked at that point for information as to what the poster believed along with references so those particular points could be discussed. I've never received an answer.

Then Sarah posts something yesterday in post #108 which was exactly what I had first thought. Clearly it was a cut and paste job from something she has read or is reading. No citation though was provided (which may well be a copyright violation). Whatever the source, it is the basic philosophy of the anti-vacc group which has been discussed and debated and debunked in other places.

Folks, I really do not care if any adult gets any particular vaccination or not. In our case, we plan to get it but that is because of the health issue Peg has going. In general from what I can see, the H1N1 is not a particularly bad virus and especially for those of us over a certain age.

However, the text contained in post #108 contains misinformation and half truths from the start to the end. It was posted and seemed to be accepted here as factorial information. It is not.

It's basic point is that all vaccinations are bad. If you were a person in the middle who believes there is probably some truth to this, as I am sure many of you are, read this entire post again and then answer this question. If you can see the author is maybe over stepping a bit in suggesting that all vaccinations are bad, do you really want to believe that any point they make is valid?

To add to the humor of this, I can be pretty sure that everyone buying into this sort of anti-vacc screed has themselves, been vaccinated. Does anyone else see the humor in that? Modern vaccinations have been so good at eliminating certain diseases and illnesses that people forget just how deadly some of these things were and has allowed this anti-science point of view to flourish. Don't fall for it.


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## Nikki's Mom

It is up to each individual to do their own homework and decide what to do. If people take posts written on a dog forum as their only source of information for vaccinations, then that is their problem. We should not call for the suppression of information because a few people believe it is faulty, and a few people will make a decision without all the information that they need.

Information is provided for people themselves to discern what is true and what isn't. People can choose to think any way they want, and believe anything they want. If people wish to challenge information posted on a forum, then they may choose to provide evidence that the information is false, rather than being rude to the people who provided the information.

I don't think it is humorous that some of the people who are against vaccinations have taken them. In some cases, they've made bad decisions and learned their lesson after becoming sick. I think that I have given enough information and background on the reasons why I do not take vaccinations. I'm not trying to make a case, and I'm not an anti anything evangelist or have an agenda. This is a forum. If everyone who posted their opinions had to back everything up with referenced information and studies, no one would have the time to do anything else. And you can find info on all sides to back up your opinions if you take the time to look hard enough. But who has the time for that? 

Someone here asks a question, and you give an answer. If they want peer reviewed studies and references galore, then they can always pm that person for the info, and that person will do it in his/her own time. I like broccoli. Do I have to provide scientific information on why broccoli is good for me ever time I say that I like it? Of course not, it is a personal preference. 

As a child, I suffered through measles, mumps, chicken pox, german measles, etc. I had no choice as there were no vaccines for those things back then, and even if there were, I was a child and had no decision-making power. Given a choice today though, I'd rather suffer through those illnesses again than take a vaccination and battle a lifelong weak immune system. That is my decision. I have my reasons. I share my reasons with others. People can agree or disagree. I try not to offend people with my strong opinions. I don't believe in attacking a person for what they believe if I disagree. I may want to engage in discussion and critical thinking, but I really try my best to refrain from attacking the person.


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## Nikki's Mom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTRSeeTGagQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkutU1WdK9A...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw...feature=related


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## Nikki's Mom

Found this excerpt on another forum, I am sorry I do know know the source. It was not given:

******

According to the New York Times, February 5, 2005, the World Health Organization (WHO) has even admitted that Tamiflu is not as effective as previously believed.

But there is an alternative for several flu viruses, both type A and type B. It's a natural remedy that has no side effects and is inexpensive. It has been around for quite some time as a cold cure. But lately it has proven effective against virulent flus. It is Black Elderberry extract.

*Tamiflu Hazards*

The Sydney (Australia) Herald on April 20, 2009 reported in its world section that a Japanese study had been completed on the side effects of Tamiflu with negative results. A major reason for the study was to determine if Japan should lift its ban on Tamiflu, which, the Herald article stated, was very unlikely because of the of the conclusion of that study.

Out of 10,000 test cases of Tamiflu used by young people under 18, over half exhibited unusual behavior after taking Tamiflu. That behavior was sometimes as extreme as attempting or committing suicide. Eighteen deaths among young Japanese were associated with taking Tamiflu.

The 1918 flu pandemic reached such a high death toll primarily due to secondary bacterial infections. There is evidence that the use of Tamiflu creates an invitation to secondary bacterial infections. The "normal" side effects include fatigue, dizziness, vomiting, headache and coughing. The only positive of this very expensive medication is symptom relief for one and a half days out of a six day term of flu. But the side effects mimic the flu symptoms anyway!

*Black Elderberry Extract Benefits*

A clinical trial during a severe flu outbreak around 1992-93 in Israel confirmed a perfect cure rate of severe flu victims there. Another study performed in Oslo, Norway more recently, around 2002, also confirmed the amazing efficacy for type A or B flu victims of several different strains. The cures mostly occurred in two days while a few were cured in three days. Tamiflu cures occur normally in 4.5 to 5 days. It took 6 days or more for the flu victims on placebos to recover.

What was used in both Israel and Norway was a Black Elderberry extract product of Israeli origin. There were no side effects from taking this inexpensive flu cure. At the end of this article there is a simple Black Elderberry extract remedy recipe. In other words, you will be empowered with making an abundant supply of this extract cure to have on hand.

Elderberry has a very high ORAC, or oxygen radical absorption capacity: over twice as much as blueberry. In addition, antioxidants called flavonoids stimulate the immune system. Other compounds in elderberry, called anthocyanins, have an anti-inflammatory effect; which would explain the effect on aches, pains, and fever.

*So What About Cytokine Storms?*

Another factor in the 1918 flu pandemic death rate was the cytokine storm. A cytokine storm results in lungs so damaged that the flu victim may die. Cytokine production is normally a good thing. It is the result of the immune system's reacting to pathogenic or viral invasions. The white blood cells produce an assortment of cytokines to attack the invaders. Occasionally, there appears a viral strain that is so energetically invasive and virulent that it over stimulates the cytokine production. Then the cells of healthy tissues are attacked by the cytokines.

Supposedly, because of their already strong immune systems, this is more common among young and healthy types who are exposed to one of these unusually aggressive viral strains. The H1N1 or "bird flu" is among those few virulent strains. It is not yet known if this swine flu version is of the same ilk. Many have speculated that its origin is man made, perhaps as a bioweapon. After all, it is an unusual combination of swine, bird, and human flu strains.

A valid concern registered by some is the possibility of cytokine storms initiated by black elderberry's immune boosting capability. So far, there have been no reports of that activity. Besides, it appears that cytokine storms are usually a result of the type of flu virus strain rather than from the use of any herbal or natural cure.

Cytokine storms are actually a result of an imbalance between TH-1 and TH-2, which are cells that attack pathogenic invaders. The TH-1 cells go after pathogens in the cells while the TH-2 cells attack pathogens in the blood system. There is another natural preventative remedy for the potential cytokine storm.

Zinc helps correct this TH-1 and TH-2 imbalance by re-establishing a hormonal balance, greatly reducing the potential of a cytokine storm. There is good evidence that zinc salts also dramatically potentiate the action of the human cytokine interferon alpha, a type of protein that inhibits viral replication. Thus the immune system is less challenged, less likely to be overwhelmed, and free to handle immediate and present dangers.

Zinc is an essential component of the specific SOD or superoxide dismutase enzymes, oxygen radical scavengers. These scavengers can significantly reduce mortality rates following a lung infection, possibly even if from a cytokine storm.

*Flu Prevention or Preparation*

Vaccines don't always work. In fact, they tend to weaken the immune system, sometimes even bringing about worse conditions than the viral infection itself. Why else would pharmaceutical companies successfully lobby, during the previous administration, for impunity from legal recourse due to complications caused by vaccinations?

It is recommended to strengthen the immune system with vitamin C and D3. Vitamin D storage is increased through skin exposure to outdoor sun and/or mercury-free fish oils. Also, it's an excellent idea to ensure you are taking in plenty of zinc with adequate selenium (don't exceed 200 mcg) as most of the population suffers from a deficiency of this important mineral, which helps prevent cytokine storms.

Adding sub-lingual (for better absorption) B-12 is another valid protection against cytokine storms.
Getting enough sleep, as so many are sleep deprived, is high on the list of activities required for strong immune systems. Most importantly, having a good emotional attitude, which includes not stressing over pandemics and other issues, is essential to the immune system.

Oh yes, here's that recipe for making your own black elderberry extract tincture:

*SIMPLE ELDERBERRY TINCTURE RECIPE*

1) Clean Quart Jar add 1/4 pound dried elderberries *(Must be Sambucus *****)* MountainRoseHerbs.com is one source.
2) Now fill to top with vodka. Put lid on tight.
3) Store in a dark cupboard and shake once every few days.
4) Label and date your jar. Let it sit for at least 30 days before you strain it. You can use it without straining it too and it will just continue to get stronger

*Dosage:* 1 teaspoon four to five times daily during infections. 

****

If you don't want to make it yourself, it can be purchased at health food stores or online. Look for *Elderberry Syrup*, *Sambucol*, or *Sambucus*. It is sold both with sugar and sugar-free. We take a maintenance dose of 1-2 teaspoons daily during the winter. It tastes like a combination of raspberry, grape, and cherry. Delicious!


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## beckinwolf

I'm just going to add my own H1N1 experience. Last Monday, the 2nd, I woke up with a cough. It felt kind of like an allergic cough. Sort of itchy almost. It lasted all day. By Monday night I was running a fever. Now I don't KNOW 100% that I actually had H1N1, but during my weeklong illness my fever did get as high as 101.5, in my opinion that's pretty darned high for a common cold. On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday nights, I had fever and chills. I decided not to take any fever-reducing medicines, like Tylenol, Aspirin, etc. I've been reading that fever is our friend, very good for fighting off infections. I just made sure to stay warm and snuggled in bed. I did take Sambu-syrup, cat's claw, olive leaf, zinc, and echinacea, as well as lots of Vitamin C and tea/chicken broth. Today, Wednesday, 11th. I still have some chest congestion and coughing, but its not bad at all. So, even if it was available, and even if I were going to get the vaccine, there's pretty much no point now. I'm not suprised that I got it in first place, since I just started a part-time job as a cashier, so I'm handling money for 4 hours straight a few times a week. Money is very dirty. 

IMHO all this rude back and forth is pointless. There's no reason to get all bent out of shape about it. All we can really do is inform each other of our options. No one is going to change anyone else's mind, especially if that mind is closed. :yield:


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (beckinwolf @ Nov 11 2009, 03:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850035


> I'm just going to add my own H1N1 experience. Last Monday, the 2nd, I woke up with a cough. It felt kind of like an allergic cough. Sort of itchy almost. It lasted all day. By Monday night I was running a fever. Now I don't KNOW 100% that I actually had H1N1, but during my weeklong illness my fever did get as high as 101.5, in my opinion that's pretty darned high for a common cold. On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday nights, I had fever and chills. I decided not to take any fever-reducing medicines, like Tylenol, Aspirin, etc. I've been reading that fever is our friend, very good for fighting off infections. I just made sure to stay warm and snuggled in bed. I did take Sambu-syrup, cat's claw, olive leaf, zinc, and echinacea, as well as lots of Vitamin C and tea/chicken broth. Today, Wednesday, 11th. I still have some chest congestion and coughing, but its not bad at all. So, even if it was available, and even if I were going to get the vaccine, there's pretty much no point now. I'm not suprised that I got it in first place, since I just started a part-time job as a cashier, so I'm handling money for 4 hours straight a few times a week. Money is very dirty.
> 
> IMHO all this rude back and forth is pointless. There's no reason to get all bent out of shape about it. All we can really do is inform each other of our options. No one is going to change anyone else's mind, especially if that mind is closed. :yield:[/B]


Glad you are feeling better. :sLo_grouphug3:


----------



## pammy4501

*SIMPLE ELDERBERRY TINCTURE RECIPE*

1) Clean Quart Jar add 1/4 pound dried elderberries (Must be Sambucus *****) MountainRoseHerbs.com is one source.
2) Now fill to top with vodka. Put lid on tight.
3) Store in a dark cupboard and shake once every few days.
4) Label and date your jar. Let it sit for at least 30 days before you strain it. You can use it without straining it too and it will just continue to get stronger

Dosage: 1 teaspoon four to five times daily during infections. 
*Alternate Dosage: Place liberal portion in a martini shaker w/ice. Shake until completely chilled
and strain into a chilled martini glass. Rimmed with sugar if desired. Enjoy with some salty snacks!!*
(A little humor to lighten up this thread!!!) :smrofl: :smrofl:


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## beckinwolf

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Nov 11 2009, 03:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850059


> *SIMPLE ELDERBERRY TINCTURE RECIPE*
> 
> 1) Clean Quart Jar add 1/4 pound dried elderberries (Must be Sambucus *****) MountainRoseHerbs.com is one source.
> 2) Now fill to top with vodka. Put lid on tight.
> 3) Store in a dark cupboard and shake once every few days.
> 4) Label and date your jar. Let it sit for at least 30 days before you strain it. You can use it without straining it too and it will just continue to get stronger
> 
> Dosage: 1 teaspoon four to five times daily during infections.
> *Alternate Dosage: Place liberal portion in a martini shaker w/ice. Shake until completely chilled
> and strain into a chilled martini glass. Rimmed with sugar if desired. Enjoy with some salty snacks!!*
> (A little humor to lighten up this thread!!!) :smrofl: :smrofl:[/B]


Eldertini!!!! I love it! That stuff is pretty strong on its own. That would be one heck of a stout drink! :wine:


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## princessre

:aktion033: :aktion033: Thank you for this! This is such good news! I take Sambucol at the first sign of a cold and it cures me every time. I just stocked up during a sale at CVS, and now I feel empowered against H1N1!! Thanks, Suzan!!



QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 11 2009, 02:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850000


> Found this excerpt on another forum, I am sorry I do know know the source. It was not given:
> 
> ******
> 
> According to the New York Times, February 5, 2005, the World Health Organization (WHO) has even admitted that Tamiflu is not as effective as previously believed.
> 
> But there is an alternative for several flu viruses, both type A and type B. It's a natural remedy that has no side effects and is inexpensive. It has been around for quite some time as a cold cure. But lately it has proven effective against virulent flus. It is Black Elderberry extract.
> 
> *Tamiflu Hazards*
> 
> The Sydney (Australia) Herald on April 20, 2009 reported in its world section that a Japanese study had been completed on the side effects of Tamiflu with negative results. A major reason for the study was to determine if Japan should lift its ban on Tamiflu, which, the Herald article stated, was very unlikely because of the of the conclusion of that study.
> 
> Out of 10,000 test cases of Tamiflu used by young people under 18, over half exhibited unusual behavior after taking Tamiflu. That behavior was sometimes as extreme as attempting or committing suicide. Eighteen deaths among young Japanese were associated with taking Tamiflu.
> 
> The 1918 flu pandemic reached such a high death toll primarily due to secondary bacterial infections. There is evidence that the use of Tamiflu creates an invitation to secondary bacterial infections. The "normal" side effects include fatigue, dizziness, vomiting, headache and coughing. The only positive of this very expensive medication is symptom relief for one and a half days out of a six day term of flu. But the side effects mimic the flu symptoms anyway!
> 
> *Black Elderberry Extract Benefits*
> 
> A clinical trial during a severe flu outbreak around 1992-93 in Israel confirmed a perfect cure rate of severe flu victims there. Another study performed in Oslo, Norway more recently, around 2002, also confirmed the amazing efficacy for type A or B flu victims of several different strains. The cures mostly occurred in two days while a few were cured in three days. Tamiflu cures occur normally in 4.5 to 5 days. It took 6 days or more for the flu victims on placebos to recover.
> 
> What was used in both Israel and Norway was a Black Elderberry extract product of Israeli origin. There were no side effects from taking this inexpensive flu cure. At the end of this article there is a simple Black Elderberry extract remedy recipe. In other words, you will be empowered with making an abundant supply of this extract cure to have on hand.
> 
> Elderberry has a very high ORAC, or oxygen radical absorption capacity: over twice as much as blueberry. In addition, antioxidants called flavonoids stimulate the immune system. Other compounds in elderberry, called anthocyanins, have an anti-inflammatory effect; which would explain the effect on aches, pains, and fever.
> 
> *So What About Cytokine Storms?*
> 
> Another factor in the 1918 flu pandemic death rate was the cytokine storm. A cytokine storm results in lungs so damaged that the flu victim may die. Cytokine production is normally a good thing. It is the result of the immune system's reacting to pathogenic or viral invasions. The white blood cells produce an assortment of cytokines to attack the invaders. Occasionally, there appears a viral strain that is so energetically invasive and virulent that it over stimulates the cytokine production. Then the cells of healthy tissues are attacked by the cytokines.
> 
> Supposedly, because of their already strong immune systems, this is more common among young and healthy types who are exposed to one of these unusually aggressive viral strains. The H1N1 or "bird flu" is among those few virulent strains. It is not yet known if this swine flu version is of the same ilk. Many have speculated that its origin is man made, perhaps as a bioweapon. After all, it is an unusual combination of swine, bird, and human flu strains.
> 
> A valid concern registered by some is the possibility of cytokine storms initiated by black elderberry's immune boosting capability. So far, there have been no reports of that activity. Besides, it appears that cytokine storms are usually a result of the type of flu virus strain rather than from the use of any herbal or natural cure.
> 
> Cytokine storms are actually a result of an imbalance between TH-1 and TH-2, which are cells that attack pathogenic invaders. The TH-1 cells go after pathogens in the cells while the TH-2 cells attack pathogens in the blood system. There is another natural preventative remedy for the potential cytokine storm.
> 
> Zinc helps correct this TH-1 and TH-2 imbalance by re-establishing a hormonal balance, greatly reducing the potential of a cytokine storm. There is good evidence that zinc salts also dramatically potentiate the action of the human cytokine interferon alpha, a type of protein that inhibits viral replication. Thus the immune system is less challenged, less likely to be overwhelmed, and free to handle immediate and present dangers.
> 
> Zinc is an essential component of the specific SOD or superoxide dismutase enzymes, oxygen radical scavengers. These scavengers can significantly reduce mortality rates following a lung infection, possibly even if from a cytokine storm.
> 
> *Flu Prevention or Preparation*
> 
> Vaccines don't always work. In fact, they tend to weaken the immune system, sometimes even bringing about worse conditions than the viral infection itself. Why else would pharmaceutical companies successfully lobby, during the previous administration, for impunity from legal recourse due to complications caused by vaccinations?
> 
> It is recommended to strengthen the immune system with vitamin C and D3. Vitamin D storage is increased through skin exposure to outdoor sun and/or mercury-free fish oils. Also, it's an excellent idea to ensure you are taking in plenty of zinc with adequate selenium (don't exceed 200 mcg) as most of the population suffers from a deficiency of this important mineral, which helps prevent cytokine storms.
> 
> Adding sub-lingual (for better absorption) B-12 is another valid protection against cytokine storms.
> Getting enough sleep, as so many are sleep deprived, is high on the list of activities required for strong immune systems. Most importantly, having a good emotional attitude, which includes not stressing over pandemics and other issues, is essential to the immune system.
> 
> Oh yes, here's that recipe for making your own black elderberry extract tincture:
> 
> *SIMPLE ELDERBERRY TINCTURE RECIPE*
> 
> 1) Clean Quart Jar add 1/4 pound dried elderberries *(Must be Sambucus *****)* MountainRoseHerbs.com is one source.
> 2) Now fill to top with vodka. Put lid on tight.
> 3) Store in a dark cupboard and shake once every few days.
> 4) Label and date your jar. Let it sit for at least 30 days before you strain it. You can use it without straining it too and it will just continue to get stronger
> 
> *Dosage:* 1 teaspoon four to five times daily during infections.
> 
> ****
> 
> If you don't want to make it yourself, it can be purchased at health food stores or online. Look for *Elderberry Syrup*, *Sambucol*, or *Sambucus*. It is sold both with sugar and sugar-free. We take a maintenance dose of 1-2 teaspoons daily during the winter. It tastes like a combination of raspberry, grape, and cherry. Delicious![/B]


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## Nikki's Mom

I just bought some dried elderberries. I'm going to try my hand at making tincture. I'll let you know how it turns out!


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## princessre

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 11 2009, 05:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850069


> I just bought some dried elderberries. I'm going to try my hand at making tincture. I'll let you know how it turns out![/B]


Wow! Please let us know how that recipe turns out!

Oh and I wanted to add, while knocking on wood, that I have never gotten a flu vaccine. And since I started eating wild-caught cold-water fish, organic leafy veggies, and organic fruits, have never gotten the flu in the last 8 years. My sister, who has gotten the flu vaccine every year, gets the flu at least a few times a year. I don't know if she would get the flu even more frequently if she didn't get the vaccine...It's a hard decision to make when you don't start off feeling well most of the time...


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## triste

I had been warned about elderberry sometime ago but I couldn't remember why. I found this on WebMD..and it reminded me. I have a friend who has lupus and she was told to avoid it!

“Auto-immune diseases” such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Elderberry might cause the immune system to become more active, and this could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it’s best to avoid using elderberry.


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## Max & Rocky

Here is some more information for those who are actually open to reading both sides on the subject.

http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jun/06-wh...roversy-live-on

Here are some of those organizations that are busy helping the vaccination companies who are in cahoots with our governments (not just United States) poison us all while making obscene amount of money while doing it  

http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org/resources/organizations.cfm

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_w...cience_argument

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/answ...out-thimerosal/



On the subject of thimerosal in vaccinations, here is the info as to what has it, what never had it, what hasn't had it now for some years: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/...cm096228.htm#t1

The bottom line is if thimerosal in vaccines really caused autism, you would expect rates of autism to fall once the preservative was removed from vaccines. Instead, in the years since the preservative was removed, autism rates have risen dramatically. additionally, most vaccines never contained this preservative in the first place.

Vaccines do not cause autism. That was the ruling in each of three critical test cases handed down on February 12 by the U.S. Court of Federal Claims in Washington, D.C. After a decade of speculation, argument, and analysis—often filled with vitriol on both sides—the court specifically denied any link between the combination of the MMR vaccine and vaccines with thimerosal (a mercury-based preservative) and the spectrum of disorders associated with autism. But these rulings, though seemingly definitive, have done little to quell the angry debate, which has severe implications for American public health.
The idea that there is something wrong with our vaccines—that they have poisoned a generation of kids, driving an “epidemic” of autism—continues to be everywhere: on cable news, in celebrity magazines, on blogs, and in health news stories. It has had a particularly strong life on the Internet, including the heavily trafficked Huffington Post, and in pop culture, where it is supported by actors including Charlie Sheen and Jim Carrey, former Playboy playmate Jenny McCarthy, and numerous others. Despite repeated rejection by the scientific community, it has spawned a movement, led to thousands of legal claims, and even triggered occasional harassment and threats against scientists whose research appears to discredit it.

On the subject of trace amounts of aluminum in some vaccines, an antacid tablet has about 1,000 times more than any vaccination and those of you who cook in cookware containing aluminum are consuming many hundreds of times more every year than is in any vaccination.

By any measure of scientific consensus, there is total agreement: Vaccines are safe, effective, and necessary. Twelve studies have shown that the measles/mumps/rubella vaccine is safe. Many other studies have disproved the theory that the Hib shot is toxic. The few dissenters get lots of attention, but it’s always the same old names.


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## princessre

QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 11 2009, 07:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850115


> I had been warned about elderberry sometime ago but I couldn't remember why. I found this on WebMD..and it reminded me. I have a friend who has lupus and she was told to avoid it!
> 
> “Auto-immune diseases” such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Elderberry might cause the immune system to become more active, and this could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it’s best to avoid using elderberry.[/B]


Wow, thanks so much for the warning! That's interesting!


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 11 2009, 07:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850115


> I had been warned about elderberry sometime ago but I couldn't remember why. I found this on WebMD..and it reminded me. I have a friend who has lupus and she was told to avoid it!
> 
> "Auto-immune diseases" such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Elderberry might cause the immune system to become more active, and this could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it's best to avoid using elderberry.[/B]


Thanks for letting us know.


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## myfairlacy

just curious...Has there ever been an autistic child that never had any vaccines? Don't really know much about autism because I just haven't paid much attention to it but I just thought of that and am curious.


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## coco

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Nov 11 2009, 09:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850171


> just curious...Has there ever been an autistic child that never had any vaccines? Don't really know much about autism because I just haven't paid much attention to it but I just thought of that and am curious.[/B]



Good question. I'm sure there are, since the consensus of research is saying that vaccines, or the preservatives in them, are not the cause of Autism. One does have to wonder, as the cases do seem to keep increasing as the years go along. Not only that, but the cases of mental illness are increasing, as well. I just don't get it. I do wonder if giving multiple vaccines at one time isn't something at which they should look. Perhaps they have???? I just haven't done enough research to know. All I know is that my kids are 30 and 35, and I never even wondered about autism until about 10-15 years ago. We just knew no one with it. Now we know several. Of course, I never knew a kid with ADHD when I was a kid, either. I sure knew kids who'd had polio, though. :-( Guess that speaks to my age. Maybe they should look at the flouride they've added to our drinking water as a source of some of these problems. Just a thought...


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## lovesophie

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 11 2009, 02:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850069


> I just bought some dried elderberries. I'm going to try my hand at making tincture. I'll let you know how it turns out![/B]


Oh, please do. I'd love to know, as well!! :biggrin: 

Here's an article on vaccinations and autism:

*Autism and Vaccinations* By Mary Megson, MD

I have practiced pediatrics for twenty-two years, the last fifteen years seeing only children with developmental disabilities, which include learning disabilities, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, cerebral palsy, mental retardation and autism.

In 1978, I learned as a resident at Boston Floating Hospital that the incidence of autism was one in 10,000 children. Over the last ten years I have watched the incidence of autism skyrocket to 1/300-1/600 children.

Over the last nine months, I have treated over 1,200 children in my office. Ninety percent of these children are autistic and from the Richmond area alone. Yet the State Department of Education reports that there are only 1,522 autistic students in the entire state of Virginia.

MHMR (Mental Health Mental Retardation) agencies have created local infant intervention programs, and they have had a hard time keeping up with the numbers of delayed infants and toddlers. I have served as advisor to the City of Richmond and the surrounding counties as they have established entire programs for autistic children that fill multiple classes in several schools in each district.

The segment of children with "regressive autism," the form where children develop normally for a period of time then lose skills and sink into autism, most commonly at 18-24 months of age, is increasing at a phenomenal rate. I am seeing several children in the same family affected, including in the last week four cases of "autistic regression" developing in four-year-old children after their MMR and DPT vaccination. In the past, this was unheard of.

In the vast majority of these cases, one parent reports night blindness or other rarer disorders which are caused by a genetic defect in a G protein, where they join cell membrane receptors, which are activated by retinoids, neurotransmitters, hormones, secretin and other protein messengers. G proteins are cellular proteins that upgrade or downgrade signals in sensory organs that regulate touch, taste, smell, hearing and vision. They are found all over the body, in high concentration in the gut and the brain. They turn on or off multiple metabolic pathways including those for glucose, lipid and protein metabolism as well as cell growth and survival.

Close to the age of "autistic regression," we add pertussis toxin, which completely disrupts G alpha signals. The opposite G proteins are turned on without inhibition leading to the following:

1. Glycogen breakdown or gluconeogenesis. Many of these children have elevated blood sugars. There is a 68 percent incidence of diabetes in parents and grandparents of these children.
2. Lipid breakdown which increases blood fats that lead to hyperlipidemia. One-third of families has either a parent or grandparent who died from myocardial infarction at less than 55 years of age and was diagnosed with hyperlipidemia.
3. Cell growth differentiation and survival which leads to uncontrolled cell growth. There are 62 cases of malignancies associated with ras-oncogene [a cancer gene] in 60 families of these autistic children.

The measles antibody cross reacts with intermediate filaments which are the glue that hold cells together in the gut wall. The loss of cell-to-cell connection interrupts aproptosis or the ability of neighboring cells to kill off abnormal cells. The MMR vaccine at 15 months precedes the DPT at 18 months, which turns on uncontrolled cell growth differentiation and survival.

Most families report cancer in the parents or grandparents, the most common being colon cancer. The genetic defect, found in 30-50 percent of adult cancers, is a cancer gene (ras-oncogene). It is the same defect as that for congenital stationary night blindness. 

G-protein defects cause severe loss of rod function in most autistic children. They lose night vision, and light-to-dark shading on objects in the daylight. They sink into a "magic eye puzzle," seeing only color and shape in all of their visual field, except for a "box" in the middle, the only place where they get the impression of the three dimensional nature of objects. 

Only when they look at television or a computer do they predictably hear the right language for what they see. They try to make sense of the world around them by lining up toys, sorting by color. They have to "see" objects by adding boxes together, thus "thinking in pictures." Their avoidance of eye contact is an attempt to get light to land off center in the retina where they have some rod function.

Suddenly mother’s touch feels like sand-paper on their skin. Common sounds become like nails scraped on a blackboard. We think they cannot abstract, but we are sinking these children into an abstract painting at 18 months of age and they are left trying to figure out if the language they are hearing is connected to what they are looking at.

The defect for congenital stationary night blindness on the short arm of the X chromosome affects cell membrane calcium channels which, if not functioning, block NMDA/glutamate receptors in the hippocampus where pathways connect the left and right brain with the frontal lobe. 

Margaret Bauman has described a lack of cell growth and differentiation in the hippocampus seen on autopsy in autistic children. The frontal lobe is the seat of attention, inhibition of impulse, social judgment and all executive function.

When stimulated, these NMDA receptors through G proteins stimulate nuclear vitamin A receptors discovered by Ron Evans and his colleagues in December, 1998. When blocked, in the animal model, mice are unable to learn and remember changes in their environment. They act as if they have significant visual perceptual problems and have spatial learning deficits.

Of concern is the fact that the hepatitis B virus protein sequence was originally isolated in the gene for a similar retinoid receptor (RAR beta), which is the critical receptor important for brain plasticity and retinoid signaling in the hippocampus. After the mercury is removed, I understand we will restart hepatitis B vaccine at day one of life. Studies need to be done to determine if this plays an additive role in the marked increase in autism.

I am using natural lipid soluble concentrated cis form of vitamin A in cod liver oil to bypass blocked G protein pathways and turn on these central retinoid receptors. In a few days, most of these children regain eye contact and some say their "box" of clear vision grows. After two months on vitamin-A treatment some of these children, when given a single dose of bethanechol [a drug related to acetlycholene, a substance that transmits nerve impulses] to stimulate pathways in the parasympathetic system in the gut, focus, laugh, concentrate, show a sense of humor and talk after 30 minutes, as if reconnected.

This improves cognition, but they are still physically ill. When these children get the MMR vaccine, their vitamin A stores are depleted and they cannot compensate for blocked pathways. Lack of vitamin A, which has been called "the anti-infective agent," leaves them immunosuppressed. They lack cell-mediated immunity. T cell activation, important for long term immune memory, requires 14-hydroxy retro-retinol. On cod liver oil, the only natural source of this natural substance, the children get well. The parasympathetic nervous system is blocked by the second G protein defect.

These children are unable to relax, focus and digest their food. Instead, they are in sympathetic overdrive with a constant outpouring of adrenaline and stress hormones. They are anxious, pace, have dilated pupils, high blood pressure and rapid heart rate. These and other symptoms of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder are part of this constant "fight or flight" response. These symptoms improve on bethanechol.

I live in a small middle class neighborhood with twenty-three houses. I recently counted thirty children who live in this community who are on medication for ADHD. One week ago my oldest son, who is gifted but dyslexic, had twelve neighborhood friends over for dinner. As I looked around the table, all of these children but one had dilated pupils. After two-and-one-half months of taking vitamin A and D in cod liver oil, my son announced, "I can read now! The letters don’t jump around on the page anymore!" He is able to focus and his handwriting has improved dramatically. In his high school for college-bound dyslexic students, 68 of 70 teenagers report seeing headlights with starbursts, a symptom of congenital stationary nightblindness.

I think we are staring a disaster in the face that has affected thousands of Americans. The children with autism or dyslexia/ADHD are lucky. There are many other children not identified, just disconnected.

We must direct all of our resources and efforts to establish multi-disciplinary centers to treat these children. Insurance companies should pay for evaluations, both medical and psychiatric, and treatment. These children are physically ill, immunosuppressed with a chronic autoimmune disorder affecting multiple organ systems. Funding to look at etiology of autism, to identify children at risk prior to "autistic regression," and to prevent this disorder is imperative.

Implementing vaccine policies that are safe for all children should become our first priority.

Mothers from all over the country have brought pictures of their autistic children to Washington this weekend. Most of these children were born normal and were lost to "autistic regression." Look into their eyes and you will hear their silence.

Editor’s note: In addition to cod liver oil, children with developmental disorders should be given a nutrient-dense diet that includes plenty of calcium and other minerals. Additional vitamin D may also be helpful. (See page 11.)

About the Author

Dr. Mary Megson is a board-certified pediatrician, trained in child development, a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the Medical College of Virginia. This testimony was given April 6, 2000 at Senate hearings on autism and vaccinations. Parts of this article are technical.

Source

Here's another excerpt regarding the flu vaccine and autism:

*Flu Shots*

Parents and activist organizations have worked hard to have thimerosal removed from children’s vaccines. But as the mercury-based preservative is phased out, mercury has returned to the pediatric scene in the form of the flu vaccine. Current recommendation is two flu shots for babies in their first year and one shot per year thereafter. A single flu shot contains 25 micrograms of mercury, which is 100 times more than kids get in their cumulative vaccinations over several years. The Centers for Disease Control disputes claims that mercury in childhood vaccines contributes to autism but a study by Dr. Mady Hornig from the Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University supports the mercury-autism connection. Hornig injected a strain of mice with genetic tissues similar to those found in autistic children with vaccines containing amounts of mercury equivalent to what kids got in the 1990s. The mice developed profound brain problems, repetitive behavior and withdrawal from their surroundings. They resisted change and developed brain abnormalities affecting emotion and thinking, just like autistic children. And what about adults taking the flu vaccine? According to Dr. Russell Blaylock, a speaker at our recent conference, adults who receive the flu vaccine five years in a row are 1000 percent more likely to develop Alzheimer’s disease.

Source

MyFairLacy,

Here's an interesting excerpt:

*Autism and the Amish*

One in every 166 children born in the United States is afflicted with autism, a living-death condition characterized by "markedly abnormal or impaired development in social interaction and communication and a markedly restricted repertoire of activities and interests." While most parents of autistic children have reported the onset of symptoms immediately or shortly after a dose of vaccines, the pharmaceutical industry denies any connection between this epidemic and the load of childhood vaccinations to which modern children are subjected. What’s needed in this debate is a look at the rates of autism in an unvaccinated population and one reporter, Dan Olmsted, has done just that. Among the unvaccinated Amish of Lancaster County Pennsylvania, there should be well over 100 children with some form of the disorder if autism has nothing to do with vaccination. What he found is that in all the Amish schools, there is one classroom with about 30 "special needs" Amish children and of these, one is autistic. Another autistic Amish child does not go to school and a third is a pre-school-age girl. Olmsted found that all three had actually been vaccinated; two were born to Amish parents who gave in to the constant pressure to vaccinate their children. The third and worse case was a girl adopted from China, who received many vaccinations in one day, at age 15 months (UPI, April 18, and June 7, 2005).

Source


----------



## coco

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Nov 11 2009, 10:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850179


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 11 2009, 02:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850069





> I just bought some dried elderberries. I'm going to try my hand at making tincture. I'll let you know how it turns out![/B]


Oh, please do. I'd love to know, as well!! :biggrin: 

Here's an article on vaccinations and autism:

*Autism and Vaccinations* By Mary Megson, MD

I have practiced pediatrics for twenty-two years, the last fifteen years seeing only children with developmental disabilities, which include learning disabilities, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, cerebral palsy, mental retardation and autism.

In 1978, I learned as a resident at Boston Floating Hospital that the incidence of autism was one in 10,000 children. Over the last ten years I have watched the incidence of autism skyrocket to 1/300-1/600 children.

Over the last nine months, I have treated over 1,200 children in my office. Ninety percent of these children are autistic and from the Richmond area alone. Yet the State Department of Education reports that there are only 1,522 autistic students in the entire state of Virginia.

MHMR (Mental Health Mental Retardation) agencies have created local infant intervention programs, and they have had a hard time keeping up with the numbers of delayed infants and toddlers. I have served as advisor to the City of Richmond and the surrounding counties as they have established entire programs for autistic children that fill multiple classes in several schools in each district.

The segment of children with "regressive autism," the form where children develop normally for a period of time then lose skills and sink into autism, most commonly at 18-24 months of age, is increasing at a phenomenal rate. I am seeing several children in the same family affected, including in the last week four cases of "autistic regression" developing in four-year-old children after their MMR and DPT vaccination. In the past, this was unheard of.

In the vast majority of these cases, one parent reports night blindness or other rarer disorders which are caused by a genetic defect in a G protein, where they join cell membrane receptors, which are activated by retinoids, neurotransmitters, hormones, secretin and other protein messengers. G proteins are cellular proteins that upgrade or downgrade signals in sensory organs that regulate touch, taste, smell, hearing and vision. They are found all over the body, in high concentration in the gut and the brain. They turn on or off multiple metabolic pathways including those for glucose, lipid and protein metabolism as well as cell growth and survival.

Close to the age of "autistic regression," we add pertussis toxin, which completely disrupts G alpha signals. The opposite G proteins are turned on without inhibition leading to the following:

1. Glycogen breakdown or gluconeogenesis. Many of these children have elevated blood sugars. There is a 68 percent incidence of diabetes in parents and grandparents of these children.
2. Lipid breakdown which increases blood fats that lead to hyperlipidemia. One-third of families has either a parent or grandparent who died from myocardial infarction at less than 55 years of age and was diagnosed with hyperlipidemia.
3. Cell growth differentiation and survival which leads to uncontrolled cell growth. There are 62 cases of malignancies associated with ras-oncogene [a cancer gene] in 60 families of these autistic children.

The measles antibody cross reacts with intermediate filaments which are the glue that hold cells together in the gut wall. The loss of cell-to-cell connection interrupts aproptosis or the ability of neighboring cells to kill off abnormal cells. The MMR vaccine at 15 months precedes the DPT at 18 months, which turns on uncontrolled cell growth differentiation and survival.

Most families report cancer in the parents or grandparents, the most common being colon cancer. The genetic defect, found in 30-50 percent of adult cancers, is a cancer gene (ras-oncogene). It is the same defect as that for congenital stationary night blindness. 

G-protein defects cause severe loss of rod function in most autistic children. They lose night vision, and light-to-dark shading on objects in the daylight. They sink into a "magic eye puzzle," seeing only color and shape in all of their visual field, except for a "box" in the middle, the only place where they get the impression of the three dimensional nature of objects. 

Only when they look at television or a computer do they predictably hear the right language for what they see. They try to make sense of the world around them by lining up toys, sorting by color. They have to "see" objects by adding boxes together, thus "thinking in pictures." Their avoidance of eye contact is an attempt to get light to land off center in the retina where they have some rod function.

Suddenly mother’s touch feels like sand-paper on their skin. Common sounds become like nails scraped on a blackboard. We think they cannot abstract, but we are sinking these children into an abstract painting at 18 months of age and they are left trying to figure out if the language they are hearing is connected to what they are looking at.

The defect for congenital stationary night blindness on the short arm of the X chromosome affects cell membrane calcium channels which, if not functioning, block NMDA/glutamate receptors in the hippocampus where pathways connect the left and right brain with the frontal lobe. 

Margaret Bauman has described a lack of cell growth and differentiation in the hippocampus seen on autopsy in autistic children. The frontal lobe is the seat of attention, inhibition of impulse, social judgment and all executive function.

When stimulated, these NMDA receptors through G proteins stimulate nuclear vitamin A receptors discovered by Ron Evans and his colleagues in December, 1998. When blocked, in the animal model, mice are unable to learn and remember changes in their environment. They act as if they have significant visual perceptual problems and have spatial learning deficits.

Of concern is the fact that the hepatitis B virus protein sequence was originally isolated in the gene for a similar retinoid receptor (RAR beta), which is the critical receptor important for brain plasticity and retinoid signaling in the hippocampus. After the mercury is removed, I understand we will restart hepatitis B vaccine at day one of life. Studies need to be done to determine if this plays an additive role in the marked increase in autism.

I am using natural lipid soluble concentrated cis form of vitamin A in cod liver oil to bypass blocked G protein pathways and turn on these central retinoid receptors. In a few days, most of these children regain eye contact and some say their "box" of clear vision grows. After two months on vitamin-A treatment some of these children, when given a single dose of bethanechol [a drug related to acetlycholene, a substance that transmits nerve impulses] to stimulate pathways in the parasympathetic system in the gut, focus, laugh, concentrate, show a sense of humor and talk after 30 minutes, as if reconnected.

This improves cognition, but they are still physically ill. When these children get the MMR vaccine, their vitamin A stores are depleted and they cannot compensate for blocked pathways. Lack of vitamin A, which has been called "the anti-infective agent," leaves them immunosuppressed. They lack cell-mediated immunity. T cell activation, important for long term immune memory, requires 14-hydroxy retro-retinol. On cod liver oil, the only natural source of this natural substance, the children get well. The parasympathetic nervous system is blocked by the second G protein defect.

These children are unable to relax, focus and digest their food. Instead, they are in sympathetic overdrive with a constant outpouring of adrenaline and stress hormones. They are anxious, pace, have dilated pupils, high blood pressure and rapid heart rate. These and other symptoms of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder are part of this constant "fight or flight" response. These symptoms improve on bethanechol.

I live in a small middle class neighborhood with twenty-three houses. I recently counted thirty children who live in this community who are on medication for ADHD. One week ago my oldest son, who is gifted but dyslexic, had twelve neighborhood friends over for dinner. As I looked around the table, all of these children but one had dilated pupils. After two-and-one-half months of taking vitamin A and D in cod liver oil, my son announced, "I can read now! The letters don’t jump around on the page anymore!" He is able to focus and his handwriting has improved dramatically. In his high school for college-bound dyslexic students, 68 of 70 teenagers report seeing headlights with starbursts, a symptom of congenital stationary nightblindness.

I think we are staring a disaster in the face that has affected thousands of Americans. The children with autism or dyslexia/ADHD are lucky. There are many other children not identified, just disconnected.

We must direct all of our resources and efforts to establish multi-disciplinary centers to treat these children. Insurance companies should pay for evaluations, both medical and psychiatric, and treatment. These children are physically ill, immunosuppressed with a chronic autoimmune disorder affecting multiple organ systems. Funding to look at etiology of autism, to identify children at risk prior to "autistic regression," and to prevent this disorder is imperative.

Implementing vaccine policies that are safe for all children should become our first priority.

Mothers from all over the country have brought pictures of their autistic children to Washington this weekend. Most of these children were born normal and were lost to "autistic regression." Look into their eyes and you will hear their silence.

Editor’s note: In addition to cod liver oil, children with developmental disorders should be given a nutrient-dense diet that includes plenty of calcium and other minerals. Additional vitamin D may also be helpful. (See page 11.)

About the Author

Dr. Mary Megson is a board-certified pediatrician, trained in child development, a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the Medical College of Virginia. This testimony was given April 6, 2000 at Senate hearings on autism and vaccinations. Parts of this article are technical.

Source

Here's another excerpt regarding the flu vaccine and autism:

*Flu Shots*

Parents and activist organizations have worked hard to have thimerosal removed from children’s vaccines. But as the mercury-based preservative is phased out, mercury has returned to the pediatric scene in the form of the flu vaccine. Current recommendation is two flu shots for babies in their first year and one shot per year thereafter. A single flu shot contains 25 micrograms of mercury, which is 100 times more than kids get in their cumulative vaccinations over several years. The Centers for Disease Control disputes claims that mercury in childhood vaccines contributes to autism but a study by Dr. Mady Hornig from the Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University supports the mercury-autism connection. Hornig injected a strain of mice with genetic tissues similar to those found in autistic children with vaccines containing amounts of mercury equivalent to what kids got in the 1990s. The mice developed profound brain problems, repetitive behavior and withdrawal from their surroundings. They resisted change and developed brain abnormalities affecting emotion and thinking, just like autistic children. And what about adults taking the flu vaccine? According to Dr. Russell Blaylock, a speaker at our recent conference, adults who receive the flu vaccine five years in a row are 1000 percent more likely to develop Alzheimer’s disease.

Source

MyFairLacy,

Here's an interesting excerpt:

*Autism and the Amish*

One in every 166 children born in the United States is afflicted with autism, a living-death condition characterized by "markedly abnormal or impaired development in social interaction and communication and a markedly restricted repertoire of activities and interests." While most parents of autistic children have reported the onset of symptoms immediately or shortly after a dose of vaccines, the pharmaceutical industry denies any connection between this epidemic and the load of childhood vaccinations to which modern children are subjected. What’s needed in this debate is a look at the rates of autism in an unvaccinated population and one reporter, Dan Olmsted, has done just that. Among the unvaccinated Amish of Lancaster County Pennsylvania, there should be well over 100 children with some form of the disorder if autism has nothing to do with vaccination. What he found is that in all the Amish schools, there is one classroom with about 30 "special needs" Amish children and of these, one is autistic. Another autistic Amish child does not go to school and a third is a pre-school-age girl. Olmsted found that all three had actually been vaccinated; two were born to Amish parents who gave in to the constant pressure to vaccinate their children. The third and worse case was a girl adopted from China, who received many vaccinations in one day, at age 15 months (UPI, April 18, and June 7, 2005).

Source
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow! That's quite interesting. Thanks for the information!


----------



## myfairlacy

QUOTE (Coco @ Nov 11 2009, 09:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850178


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Nov 11 2009, 09:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850171





> just curious...Has there ever been an autistic child that never had any vaccines? Don't really know much about autism because I just haven't paid much attention to it but I just thought of that and am curious.[/B]



Good question. I'm sure there are, since the consensus of research is saying that vaccines, or the preservatives in them, are not the cause of Autism. One does have to wonder, as the cases do seem to keep increasing as the years go along. Not only that, but the cases of mental illness are increasing, as well. I just don't get it. I do wonder if giving multiple vaccines at one time isn't something at which they should look. Perhaps they have???? I just haven't done enough research to know. All I know is that my kids are 30 and 35, and I never even wondered about autism until about 10-15 years ago. We just knew no one with it. Now we know several. Of course, I never knew a kid with ADHD when I was a kid, either. I sure knew kids who'd had polio, though. :-( Guess that speaks to my age. Maybe they should look at the flouride they've added to our drinking water as a source of some of these problems. Just a thought...
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sure there are so many things that we are eating and drinking now that are bad for our health...


----------



## myfairlacy

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Nov 11 2009, 09:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850179


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 11 2009, 02:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850069





> I just bought some dried elderberries. I'm going to try my hand at making tincture. I'll let you know how it turns out![/B]


Oh, please do. I'd love to know, as well!! :biggrin: 

Here's an article on vaccinations and autism:

*Autism and Vaccinations* By Mary Megson, MD

I have practiced pediatrics for twenty-two years, the last fifteen years seeing only children with developmental disabilities, which include learning disabilities, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, cerebral palsy, mental retardation and autism.

In 1978, I learned as a resident at Boston Floating Hospital that the incidence of autism was one in 10,000 children. Over the last ten years I have watched the incidence of autism skyrocket to 1/300-1/600 children.

Over the last nine months, I have treated over 1,200 children in my office. Ninety percent of these children are autistic and from the Richmond area alone. Yet the State Department of Education reports that there are only 1,522 autistic students in the entire state of Virginia.

MHMR (Mental Health Mental Retardation) agencies have created local infant intervention programs, and they have had a hard time keeping up with the numbers of delayed infants and toddlers. I have served as advisor to the City of Richmond and the surrounding counties as they have established entire programs for autistic children that fill multiple classes in several schools in each district.

The segment of children with "regressive autism," the form where children develop normally for a period of time then lose skills and sink into autism, most commonly at 18-24 months of age, is increasing at a phenomenal rate. I am seeing several children in the same family affected, including in the last week four cases of "autistic regression" developing in four-year-old children after their MMR and DPT vaccination. In the past, this was unheard of.

In the vast majority of these cases, one parent reports night blindness or other rarer disorders which are caused by a genetic defect in a G protein, where they join cell membrane receptors, which are activated by retinoids, neurotransmitters, hormones, secretin and other protein messengers. G proteins are cellular proteins that upgrade or downgrade signals in sensory organs that regulate touch, taste, smell, hearing and vision. They are found all over the body, in high concentration in the gut and the brain. They turn on or off multiple metabolic pathways including those for glucose, lipid and protein metabolism as well as cell growth and survival.

Close to the age of "autistic regression," we add pertussis toxin, which completely disrupts G alpha signals. The opposite G proteins are turned on without inhibition leading to the following:

1. Glycogen breakdown or gluconeogenesis. Many of these children have elevated blood sugars. There is a 68 percent incidence of diabetes in parents and grandparents of these children.
2. Lipid breakdown which increases blood fats that lead to hyperlipidemia. One-third of families has either a parent or grandparent who died from myocardial infarction at less than 55 years of age and was diagnosed with hyperlipidemia.
3. Cell growth differentiation and survival which leads to uncontrolled cell growth. There are 62 cases of malignancies associated with ras-oncogene [a cancer gene] in 60 families of these autistic children.

The measles antibody cross reacts with intermediate filaments which are the glue that hold cells together in the gut wall. The loss of cell-to-cell connection interrupts aproptosis or the ability of neighboring cells to kill off abnormal cells. The MMR vaccine at 15 months precedes the DPT at 18 months, which turns on uncontrolled cell growth differentiation and survival.

Most families report cancer in the parents or grandparents, the most common being colon cancer. The genetic defect, found in 30-50 percent of adult cancers, is a cancer gene (ras-oncogene). It is the same defect as that for congenital stationary night blindness. 

G-protein defects cause severe loss of rod function in most autistic children. They lose night vision, and light-to-dark shading on objects in the daylight. They sink into a "magic eye puzzle," seeing only color and shape in all of their visual field, except for a "box" in the middle, the only place where they get the impression of the three dimensional nature of objects. 

Only when they look at television or a computer do they predictably hear the right language for what they see. They try to make sense of the world around them by lining up toys, sorting by color. They have to "see" objects by adding boxes together, thus "thinking in pictures." Their avoidance of eye contact is an attempt to get light to land off center in the retina where they have some rod function.

Suddenly mother’s touch feels like sand-paper on their skin. Common sounds become like nails scraped on a blackboard. We think they cannot abstract, but we are sinking these children into an abstract painting at 18 months of age and they are left trying to figure out if the language they are hearing is connected to what they are looking at.

The defect for congenital stationary night blindness on the short arm of the X chromosome affects cell membrane calcium channels which, if not functioning, block NMDA/glutamate receptors in the hippocampus where pathways connect the left and right brain with the frontal lobe. 

Margaret Bauman has described a lack of cell growth and differentiation in the hippocampus seen on autopsy in autistic children. The frontal lobe is the seat of attention, inhibition of impulse, social judgment and all executive function.

When stimulated, these NMDA receptors through G proteins stimulate nuclear vitamin A receptors discovered by Ron Evans and his colleagues in December, 1998. When blocked, in the animal model, mice are unable to learn and remember changes in their environment. They act as if they have significant visual perceptual problems and have spatial learning deficits.

Of concern is the fact that the hepatitis B virus protein sequence was originally isolated in the gene for a similar retinoid receptor (RAR beta), which is the critical receptor important for brain plasticity and retinoid signaling in the hippocampus. After the mercury is removed, I understand we will restart hepatitis B vaccine at day one of life. Studies need to be done to determine if this plays an additive role in the marked increase in autism.

I am using natural lipid soluble concentrated cis form of vitamin A in cod liver oil to bypass blocked G protein pathways and turn on these central retinoid receptors. In a few days, most of these children regain eye contact and some say their "box" of clear vision grows. After two months on vitamin-A treatment some of these children, when given a single dose of bethanechol [a drug related to acetlycholene, a substance that transmits nerve impulses] to stimulate pathways in the parasympathetic system in the gut, focus, laugh, concentrate, show a sense of humor and talk after 30 minutes, as if reconnected.

This improves cognition, but they are still physically ill. When these children get the MMR vaccine, their vitamin A stores are depleted and they cannot compensate for blocked pathways. Lack of vitamin A, which has been called "the anti-infective agent," leaves them immunosuppressed. They lack cell-mediated immunity. T cell activation, important for long term immune memory, requires 14-hydroxy retro-retinol. On cod liver oil, the only natural source of this natural substance, the children get well. The parasympathetic nervous system is blocked by the second G protein defect.

These children are unable to relax, focus and digest their food. Instead, they are in sympathetic overdrive with a constant outpouring of adrenaline and stress hormones. They are anxious, pace, have dilated pupils, high blood pressure and rapid heart rate. These and other symptoms of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder are part of this constant "fight or flight" response. These symptoms improve on bethanechol.

I live in a small middle class neighborhood with twenty-three houses. I recently counted thirty children who live in this community who are on medication for ADHD. One week ago my oldest son, who is gifted but dyslexic, had twelve neighborhood friends over for dinner. As I looked around the table, all of these children but one had dilated pupils. After two-and-one-half months of taking vitamin A and D in cod liver oil, my son announced, "I can read now! The letters don’t jump around on the page anymore!" He is able to focus and his handwriting has improved dramatically. In his high school for college-bound dyslexic students, 68 of 70 teenagers report seeing headlights with starbursts, a symptom of congenital stationary nightblindness.

I think we are staring a disaster in the face that has affected thousands of Americans. The children with autism or dyslexia/ADHD are lucky. There are many other children not identified, just disconnected.

We must direct all of our resources and efforts to establish multi-disciplinary centers to treat these children. Insurance companies should pay for evaluations, both medical and psychiatric, and treatment. These children are physically ill, immunosuppressed with a chronic autoimmune disorder affecting multiple organ systems. Funding to look at etiology of autism, to identify children at risk prior to "autistic regression," and to prevent this disorder is imperative.

Implementing vaccine policies that are safe for all children should become our first priority.

Mothers from all over the country have brought pictures of their autistic children to Washington this weekend. Most of these children were born normal and were lost to "autistic regression." Look into their eyes and you will hear their silence.

Editor’s note: In addition to cod liver oil, children with developmental disorders should be given a nutrient-dense diet that includes plenty of calcium and other minerals. Additional vitamin D may also be helpful. (See page 11.)

About the Author

Dr. Mary Megson is a board-certified pediatrician, trained in child development, a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the Medical College of Virginia. This testimony was given April 6, 2000 at Senate hearings on autism and vaccinations. Parts of this article are technical.

Source

Here's another excerpt regarding the flu vaccine and autism:

*Flu Shots*

Parents and activist organizations have worked hard to have thimerosal removed from children’s vaccines. But as the mercury-based preservative is phased out, mercury has returned to the pediatric scene in the form of the flu vaccine. Current recommendation is two flu shots for babies in their first year and one shot per year thereafter. A single flu shot contains 25 micrograms of mercury, which is 100 times more than kids get in their cumulative vaccinations over several years. The Centers for Disease Control disputes claims that mercury in childhood vaccines contributes to autism but a study by Dr. Mady Hornig from the Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University supports the mercury-autism connection. Hornig injected a strain of mice with genetic tissues similar to those found in autistic children with vaccines containing amounts of mercury equivalent to what kids got in the 1990s. The mice developed profound brain problems, repetitive behavior and withdrawal from their surroundings. They resisted change and developed brain abnormalities affecting emotion and thinking, just like autistic children. And what about adults taking the flu vaccine? According to Dr. Russell Blaylock, a speaker at our recent conference, adults who receive the flu vaccine five years in a row are 1000 percent more likely to develop Alzheimer’s disease.

Source

MyFairLacy,

Here's an interesting excerpt:

*Autism and the Amish*

One in every 166 children born in the United States is afflicted with autism, a living-death condition characterized by "markedly abnormal or impaired development in social interaction and communication and a markedly restricted repertoire of activities and interests." While most parents of autistic children have reported the onset of symptoms immediately or shortly after a dose of vaccines, the pharmaceutical industry denies any connection between this epidemic and the load of childhood vaccinations to which modern children are subjected. What’s needed in this debate is a look at the rates of autism in an unvaccinated population and one reporter, Dan Olmsted, has done just that. Among the unvaccinated Amish of Lancaster County Pennsylvania, there should be well over 100 children with some form of the disorder if autism has nothing to do with vaccination. What he found is that in all the Amish schools, there is one classroom with about 30 "special needs" Amish children and of these, one is autistic. Another autistic Amish child does not go to school and a third is a pre-school-age girl. Olmsted found that all three had actually been vaccinated; two were born to Amish parents who gave in to the constant pressure to vaccinate their children. The third and worse case was a girl adopted from China, who received many vaccinations in one day, at age 15 months (UPI, April 18, and June 7, 2005).

Source
[/B][/QUOTE]

thanks! interesting. The only thing with the amish is that they probably eat differently than the majority of americans do and do many other things differently as well....would be nice if we could have a similar set of americans that live and eat similarly that are studied..both a nonvaccinated and a vaccinated population. But I doubt that will happen anytime soon.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Coco @ Nov 11 2009, 10:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850178


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Nov 11 2009, 09:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850171





> just curious...Has there ever been an autistic child that never had any vaccines? Don't really know much about autism because I just haven't paid much attention to it but I just thought of that and am curious.[/B]



Good question. I'm sure there are, since the consensus of research is saying that vaccines, or the preservatives in them, are not the cause of Autism. One does have to wonder, as the cases do seem to keep increasing as the years go along. Not only that, but the cases of mental illness are increasing, as well. I just don't get it. I do wonder if giving multiple vaccines at one time isn't something at which they should look. Perhaps they have???? I just haven't done enough research to know. All I know is that my kids are 30 and 35, and I never even wondered about autism until about 10-15 years ago. We just knew no one with it. Now we know several. Of course, I never knew a kid with ADHD when I was a kid, either. I sure knew kids who'd had polio, though. :-( Guess that speaks to my age. Maybe they should look at the flouride they've added to our drinking water as a source of some of these problems. Just a thought...
[/B][/QUOTE]

Sometimes a problem with mental illness and ADHD can be eased with diet. Cutting down on grains, and adding fat to the diet works wonders in some people. Good fats like coconut oil, lard, organic butter, salmon, grassfed beef, flax and hemp oil in moderation.

I know that from personal experience eliminating grains and adding in good fats to my diet works very well against depression.

Regarding autism, there are a number of autistic kids parents on some of the other forums I participate in. They feed their children a gluten-free, casein-free diet. (no wheat,oats, barley, and no milk, cheese, butter, yogurt- dairy products) They say that their kids improve on that diet.

And, of course, eliminating sugar, preservatives and artificial additives from the diet is the first thing to do for emotional/mental issues and autism as well. Eliminating toxic chemicals from the home in the form of cleaning solutions, air fresheners, etc., is very beneficial for everyone, including dogs. 

Pharmaceuticals can be beneficial, but one must always be sure to read the package inserts that come with prescription drugs and vaccines to weigh the risks against the benefits. It is your body and you must make the final decision on what goes into it.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33845867/ns/health-cold_and_flu/


----------



## Nikki's Mom

Elderberry:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11399518

http://diseases-viruses.suite101.com/artic...event_swine_flu

http://healthmad.com/nutrition/the-many-he...elderberry-tea/


All of my research says positive things about elderberry, however if you have an autoimmune disorder, consult your doctor first before taking large quantities, as it boost the immune system and is anti viral.


----------



## Nikki's Mom

I don't understand medical terminology, but if you do, here's a link for you:

http://fluboard.rhizalabs.com/forum/viewto...p?f=5&t=257

From what I can gather from this post thread, there is a second flu strain or a mutation, and it's possible that the current vaccine would be ineffective against that new/mutated strain?

It appears that so far this season, the flu (H1N1) is hitting Europe much harder than the US. At least from what I am understanding from reading some European news sources.

The information this flu season is very confusing, with contradictory reports or sometimes no reports at all coming from CDC/WHO. It's hard to discern whether it is a huge problem in some places, or not so bad?????


----------



## Nikki's Mom

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/Pre...s/ucm190359.htm*

FDA NOTE TO CORRESPONDENTS* *For Immediate Release:* Nov. 12, 2009

*Media Inquiries:* Pat El-Hinnawy, (301) 796-4763, [email protected]
*Consumer Inquiries:* 888-INFO-FDA


*FDA Expands Approved Use of H1N1 Vaccines to Include Infants and Children*
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has approved the use of the CSL Limited's 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccine to include children ages 6 months and older. This vaccine was previously approved only for use in adults, ages 18 years and older.

"Because children are among those most vulnerable to the 2009 H1N1 virus, having a broader range of children's vaccines available is an important step in responding to the H1N1 outbreak," said Margaret A. Hamburg, M.D., commissioner of food and drugs.

The company's 2009 H1N1 vaccine is manufactured and tested using the same well-established licensing processes that have been in place for many years for the company's seasonal flu vaccine. The expanded approval also covers the company's seasonal flu vaccine.

The approval was based on a study of the company's seasonal flu vaccine in children showing the vaccine's safety and efficacy in inducing antibodies to protect against influenza. These efficacy findings supported approval under FDA's accelerated approval regulation, which helps safe and effective medical products for serious or life-threatening diseases to become available sooner to the public.

Common adverse events experienced by children after administration of seasonal and H1N1 vaccines typically include pain, redness and swelling at the injection site as well as, in some cases, irritability, loss of appetite and drowsiness.

*As with any medical product, unexpected or rare serious adverse events may occur. *FDA is collaborating with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and other government agencies to enhance the capacity for adverse event safety monitoring during and after the 2009 H1N1 vaccination program.

Because CSL's seasonal and H1N1 monovalent vaccines contain a small amount of egg protein, they should not be administered to anyone allergic to eggs or egg products.

*The vaccines will be available in single-dose, preservative-free, pre-filled syringes a**nd in multi-dose vials that contain thimerosal, a mercury derivative, as a preservative.*

Both vaccines are manufactured by CSL Ltd. of Australia.

For more information, see http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/...s/ucm181950.htm

#


----------



## gopotsgo

Steve, I think your posts were superb. Nicki's mom, I respect your right to have your opinion but I agree with Steve's concern that others who share your views can unduly affect/influence some who will not perform their own research and make the wrong decision for themselves. FACT: vaccines have saved more people than they have injured. Vaccines are why I have never seen a case of polio or measles or small pox (and I work in the medical field). Vaccines are a major factor in the low infant/child mortality rate in developed countries with regular immunization schedules. Some comments made by Nicki's mom are inaccurate and I think they should be pointed out. Some of those that stood out to me are as follows: Her comment about not having insurance and, therefore, probably being placed last in line to be seen in the ER is INCORRECT. Insurance status is never even ascertained until the patient has seen the ER doctor, patients are prioritized based on acuity of illness. Also, Nicki's mom made a comment about H1N1 not being very wide spread and not the same thing as a "polio epidemic". H1N1 is known to be very contagious, therefore, the concern in the medical community about it's potential to reach epidemic status. This is why immunization is recommended, to PREVENT an epidemic. Google the "Spanish Influenza" and see how many people died in that epidemic. Even if the virus mutates (and hopefully it will mutate in a way that makes it less transmittable), you can still get partial protection from the vaccine. Do I think EVERYONE should be vaccinated, not necessarily. Do I think there can be "too much of a good thing", absolutely. But people, please do not fail to see the forrest for the trees.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Nov 11 2009, 10:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850198


> QUOTE (Coco @ Nov 11 2009, 09:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850178





> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Nov 11 2009, 09:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850171





> just curious...Has there ever been an autistic child that never had any vaccines? Don't really know much about autism because I just haven't paid much attention to it but I just thought of that and am curious.[/B]



Good question. I'm sure there are, since the consensus of research is saying that vaccines, or the preservatives in them, are not the cause of Autism. One does have to wonder, as the cases do seem to keep increasing as the years go along. Not only that, but the cases of mental illness are increasing, as well. I just don't get it. I do wonder if giving multiple vaccines at one time isn't something at which they should look. Perhaps they have???? I just haven't done enough research to know. All I know is that my kids are 30 and 35, and I never even wondered about autism until about 10-15 years ago. We just knew no one with it. Now we know several. Of course, I never knew a kid with ADHD when I was a kid, either. I sure knew kids who'd had polio, though. :-( Guess that speaks to my age. Maybe they should look at the flouride they've added to our drinking water as a source of some of these problems. Just a thought...
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sure there are so many things that we are eating and drinking now that are bad for our health...
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, my friend, Janet, whose son has autism, did say that givng the multiple vaccines at one time is, indeed, very high on the list of being suspect. Think about it ... even with pets now, many vet offices are no longer giving multiple vaccines/shots at the same time. I know our vet's office does not give multiple vaccines. So, what does that say right there? 

And, I was thinking the same thing as you about what we are eating and drinking. I know for a fact, that when I eat whole foods, I feel much better. And, when I eat the junk food, I feel worse. 

I also believe that food dyes are a huge culprit. For a long time, whenever my husband and I would go out for dinner and then a movie ... I would get this terrible itching reaction on my ear lobes. So, bad, that they would ooze clear fluid. I didn't know what was causing it until there was a news segment about the yellow dye in movie pop-corn that was causing major allergy reactions in so many movie goers who were consuming the pop-corn. This was a nationwide problem. When enough people stopped buying the pop-corn ... then the movie theaters started offering pop-corn without the dye.


----------



## I found nemo

I got my youngest (9) the shot. I didn't get it or my older boys, but I felt my little one needed it.
I do believe in making your immune system strong, I do that, but all my kids are vaccinated and will continue to be .
I was wondering if parents decide vaccinations are not for their kids, will the kids still be accepted into the public school? Just curious, I don't think they would be.
I mean like MMR and all the other childhood vaccines.
Thanks


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## triste

QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 06:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850727


> I got my youngest (9) the shot. I didn't get it or my older boys, but I felt my little one needed it.
> I do believe in making your immune system strong, I do that, but all my kids are vaccinated and will continue to be .
> I was wondering if parents decide vaccinations are not for their kids, will the kids still be accepted into the public school? Just curious, I don't think they would be.
> I mean like MMR and all the other childhood vaccines.
> Thanks[/B]



Yup, we have several families that attend our school who do NOT have any vaccinations. You just have to sign some sort of disclaimer/waiver. One of them is a check off to say it's against "religious" reasons. I don't know exactly what else it says..but I do know it's possible. HOWEVER, my kids attend a catholic school(wondering about vaccinating and catholic beliefs, never heard of that one) but we receive gov't funding so we do have to follow several of the same things as the public schools such as 504's, etc.


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## I found nemo

QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 13 2009, 07:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850730


> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 06:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850727





> I got my youngest (9) the shot. I didn't get it or my older boys, but I felt my little one needed it.
> I do believe in making your immune system strong, I do that, but all my kids are vaccinated and will continue to be .
> I was wondering if parents decide vaccinations are not for their kids, will the kids still be accepted into the public school? Just curious, I don't think they would be.
> I mean like MMR and all the other childhood vaccines.
> Thanks[/B]



Yup, we have several families that attend our school who do NOT have any vaccinations. You just have to sign some sort of disclaimer/waiver. One of them is a check off to say it's against "religious" reasons. I don't know exactly what else it says..but I do know it's possible. HOWEVER, my kids attend a catholic school(wondering about vaccinating and catholic beliefs, never heard of that one) but we receive gov't funding so we do have to follow several of the same things as the public schools such as 504's, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]
WOW! I didn't know that. My kids were in Catholic all their life, I just recently took my little one out and put him in public. I just always thought if they weren't fully vaccinated they weren't accepted. Maybe it was years ago that was true? I don't know why that was in my head as a fact .


----------



## SpringHasSprung

QUOTE


> others who share your views can unduly affect/influence some who will not perform their own research and make the wrong decision for themselves.[/B]


The First Amendment is a wonderful thing. It gives everyone the same right to speak their opinion. I, for one, am incredibly grateful for her expressing all her knowledge on this subject. She's spent years doing research and we are lucky to have her giving us her knowlegeable point of view as well. There are two sides to this vaccine coin and to say that one should remain quiet because someone might get information from her that doesn't jive with what you believe is really unfair IMO.

I appreciate hearing the other side of the issue as well. It's what makes us all stronger in thought on the subject.

People are all responsible for their own decisions. If they make decisions with research based knowledge...all the better. If not, then decisions have consequences. Freedom of speech and personal responsibility are part of being a free people.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (gopotsgo @ Nov 13 2009, 03:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850701


> Steve, I think your posts were superb. Nicki's mom, I respect your right to have your opinion but I agree with Steve's concern that others who share your views can unduly affect/influence some who will not perform their own research and make the wrong decision for themselves. FACT: vaccines have saved more people than they have injured. Vaccines are why I have never seen a case of polio or measles or small pox (and I work in the medical field). Vaccines are a major factor in the low infant/child mortality rate in developed countries with regular immunization schedules. Some comments made by Nicki's mom are inaccurate and I think they should be pointed out. Some of those that stood out to me are as follows: Her comment about not having insurance and, therefore, probably being placed last in line to be seen in the ER is INCORRECT. Insurance status is never even ascertained until the patient has seen the ER doctor, patients are prioritized based on acuity of illness. Also, Nicki's mom made a comment about H1N1 not being very wide spread and not the same thing as a "polio epidemic". H1N1 is known to be very contagious, therefore, the concern in the medical community about it's potential to reach epidemic status. This is why immunization is recommended, to PREVENT an epidemic. Google the "Spanish Influenza" and see how many people died in that epidemic. Even if the virus mutates (and hopefully it will mutate in a way that makes it less transmittable), you can still get partial protection from the vaccine. Do I think EVERYONE should be vaccinated, not necessarily. Do I think there can be "too much of a good thing", absolutely. But people, please do not fail to see the forrest for the trees.[/B]



I corrected my earlier post about H1N1 not being as widespread. It is now extremely widespread in Europe and contagious, yes of course. 

From what I remember, polio left many people crippled, flu does not cripple people, as far as I know. 

Sorry, I don't know a thing about the ER. If I was wrong about that, I apologize. I haven't been to the ER in 40 years.

I have read in medical reports that Immunization is generally about 70% effective.No vaccine is 100% effective, for varying reasons. The individuals immune response might not be robust enough, for one. If a virus mutates, isn't the vaccine for that particular strain then ineffective? I believe that there is rumor and talk that H1N1 has already mutated in Europe.

Spanish Influenza in 1918 was a terrible epidemic. It's a good thing that almost 100 years later now, sanitation and medicine has vastly improved. I believe that most people in 1918 died from secondary bacterial infections and it started in an army barracks and in close quarters on troop ships? I wonder how widespread and available the use of antibiotics was back then? But I'm not sure about that, I don't always remember what I read, and I have no time to do the research on this today.

_Vaccines save more people than injure_. I would like to read studies and statistics on that. Can you recommend any? How do they know that some later-in-life ongoing illnesses and immune issues can't be attributed to certain vaccines? Have there been any long term independent studies (meaning not funded by vaccine companies) done on that? If so, could you provide me with links? It is an important issue, especially for people like me and my good friend, who have been injured from vaccines. I'd like to know if we are the only ones, or if there are many more. If there haven't been any long-term studies, then how do we really know whether vaccines save more people than they injure? 

I don't think that _your _post and other pro-vaccinations posts here will "unduly influence/affect some people who won't do research." I respect _your _opinion and _your right to voice it_. It seems that when there is a difference of opinion that is when folks get nervous about "unduly influencing/affecting people." You or I do not coerce or brainwash, we state opinions. It is the individuals right and responsibility to form their own opinions. If they make a "wrong" decision, based on what you or I say, how is that your fault or my fault? Should we blame everyone else for our decision making? 

People are smart enough to make up their own mind on things, and aren't forced to think a certain way because they read a discussion regarding human health on a dog forum. There is an infinite amount of information on the internet and in libraries, and from doctors and health care professionals. I have stated time and time again, I am just an average person who has an interest in holistic health. If one is inclined to use conventional medicine, I doubt that they will abandon everything they believe in. If someone is on the fence, then let me just state right here: *PLEASE DO NOT MAKE UP YOUR MIND ABOUT THIS ISSUE FROM INFORMATION AND OPINIONS POSTED HERE ON THIS FORUM.* 

Bottom line is this: *Getting a vaccine is a risk. It even states that in the FDA report I pasted earlier. And, not getting a vaccine is a risk.

*Everyone has to decide for themselves what to do, which risk to take, which risk is worse. There are no sure things or guarantees in medicine, or in life. Medicine, coventional or holistic, is not God. There are no guarantees that if you are vaccinated, you will be perfectly safe and healthy and that the vaccine will even work. There are no guarantees that if you don't get vaccinated, you will be perfectly safe and healthy, even if you build your immune system. That is life. There are risks, there is danger, there is illness, people die. If folks are looking for a guarantee either way, well...it's just not there. We were given a brain to be able to discern how to live our lives. Every person is an individual and they must think for themselves and they can't blame other people for making them think a certain way. We are not brainwashing anyone here. 

There is a risk with most things we do in life. Let's be real. We all know that any statistics can be manipulated to agree with any point of view. 

Because some people here think that I and others who think like me are wrong, it seems that they believe that we should not voice our opinions here, in case someone makes a bad decision based on that opinion, and is harmed in some way. 

*So basically the bottom line is this: If I agree with you, I can voice my opinion. If I don't agree with you, I can't.* 


Isn't that a little bit scary?


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## Nikki's Mom

Internet article posted here for your information only. Please make your own decisions on this issue. 

http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Non-fo...ine_makers.html


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## SpringHasSprung

QUOTE


> Insurance status is never even ascertained until the patient has seen the ER doctor,[/B]


Although that may be true some places, it is certainly not true in our recent experience....or the experience of friends recently in the ER.


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## princessre

I think I would be more open to childhood vaccines than adult vaccines with further research, since kids seem to find new ways everyday to be little transmitters of every sickness...But I don't have skin kids (at least none that I know of ), so my opinion on this is not worth too much...


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 07:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850733


> QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 13 2009, 07:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850730





> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 06:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850727





> I got my youngest (9) the shot. I didn't get it or my older boys, but I felt my little one needed it.
> I do believe in making your immune system strong, I do that, but all my kids are vaccinated and will continue to be .
> I was wondering if parents decide vaccinations are not for their kids, will the kids still be accepted into the public school? Just curious, I don't think they would be.
> I mean like MMR and all the other childhood vaccines.
> Thanks[/B]



Yup, we have several families that attend our school who do NOT have any vaccinations. You just have to sign some sort of disclaimer/waiver. One of them is a check off to say it's against "religious" reasons. I don't know exactly what else it says..but I do know it's possible. HOWEVER, my kids attend a catholic school(wondering about vaccinating and catholic beliefs, never heard of that one) but we receive gov't funding so we do have to follow several of the same things as the public schools such as 504's, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]
WOW! I didn't know that. My kids were in Catholic all their life, I just recently took my little one out and put him in public. I just always thought if they weren't fully vaccinated they weren't accepted. Maybe it was years ago that was true? I don't know why that was in my head as a fact .
[/B][/QUOTE]


Deleted my remark so as not to offend anyone or be taken the wrong way.


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## Nikki's Mom

Article from UK newspaper.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-...ab-targets.html


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## I found nemo

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 13 2009, 11:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850797


> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 07:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850733





> QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 13 2009, 07:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850730





> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 06:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850727





> I got my youngest (9) the shot. I didn't get it or my older boys, but I felt my little one needed it.
> I do believe in making your immune system strong, I do that, but all my kids are vaccinated and will continue to be .
> I was wondering if parents decide vaccinations are not for their kids, will the kids still be accepted into the public school? Just curious, I don't think they would be.
> I mean like MMR and all the other childhood vaccines.
> Thanks[/B]



Yup, we have several families that attend our school who do NOT have any vaccinations. You just have to sign some sort of disclaimer/waiver. One of them is a check off to say it's against "religious" reasons. I don't know exactly what else it says..but I do know it's possible. HOWEVER, my kids attend a catholic school(wondering about vaccinating and catholic beliefs, never heard of that one) but we receive gov't funding so we do have to follow several of the same things as the public schools such as 504's, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]
WOW! I didn't know that. My kids were in Catholic all their life, I just recently took my little one out and put him in public. I just always thought if they weren't fully vaccinated they weren't accepted. Maybe it was years ago that was true? I don't know why that was in my head as a fact .
[/B][/QUOTE]


IMO, I think that we will eventually see ALL schools, public and private, who won't accept children that are not vaccinated. More parents will turn to home schooling their kids, or hiring private tutors. That, IMO, is a wonderful thing. IMO, the children that I know personally who are home-schooled are intelligent, mature, savvy, well-socialized, independent thinkers, and well-adjusted. IMO, of course.
[/B][/QUOTE]
My children are all of the above and they weren't home schooled. I think that has more to do with the parents and what they teach their kids . The first words my 3 boys ever said was not ma and dad , it was thank you. :biggrin:


----------



## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 02:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850842


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 13 2009, 11:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850797





> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 07:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850733





> QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 13 2009, 07:02 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850730





> QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Nov 13 2009, 06:30 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850727





> I got my youngest (9) the shot. I didn't get it or my older boys, but I felt my little one needed it.
> I do believe in making your immune system strong, I do that, but all my kids are vaccinated and will continue to be .
> I was wondering if parents decide vaccinations are not for their kids, will the kids still be accepted into the public school? Just curious, I don't think they would be.
> I mean like MMR and all the other childhood vaccines.
> Thanks[/B]



Yup, we have several families that attend our school who do NOT have any vaccinations. You just have to sign some sort of disclaimer/waiver. One of them is a check off to say it's against "religious" reasons. I don't know exactly what else it says..but I do know it's possible. HOWEVER, my kids attend a catholic school(wondering about vaccinating and catholic beliefs, never heard of that one) but we receive gov't funding so we do have to follow several of the same things as the public schools such as 504's, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]
WOW! I didn't know that. My kids were in Catholic all their life, I just recently took my little one out and put him in public. I just always thought if they weren't fully vaccinated they weren't accepted. Maybe it was years ago that was true? I don't know why that was in my head as a fact .
[/B][/QUOTE]


IMO, I think that we will eventually see ALL schools, public and private, who won't accept children that are not vaccinated. More parents will turn to home schooling their kids, or hiring private tutors. That, IMO, is a wonderful thing. IMO, the children that I know personally who are home-schooled are intelligent, mature, savvy, well-socialized, independent thinkers, and well-adjusted. IMO, of course.
[/B][/QUOTE]
My children are all of the above and they weren't home schooled. I think that has more to do with the parents and what they teach their kids . The first words my 3 boys ever said was not ma and dad , it was thank you. :biggrin: 
[/B][/QUOTE]

That's great. I didn't mean to imply that many public or private schooled kids weren't all those things as well. I went back and deleted my comment so people wouldn't get offended and take it the wrong way.


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## lovesophie

Here are some more articles regarding vaccinations and autism, in case anyone's interested:

The Autism Increase: Research Needed on the Vaccine Connection

Autism: A Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning

The Role of Mercury in the Pathogenesis of Autism

The Autism-Vaccine Disaster

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 13 2009, 05:14 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850736


> QUOTE (gopotsgo @ Nov 13 2009, 03:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850701





> Steve, I think your posts were superb. Nicki's mom, I respect your right to have your opinion but I agree with Steve's concern that others who share your views can unduly affect/influence some who will not perform their own research and make the wrong decision for themselves. FACT: vaccines have saved more people than they have injured. Vaccines are why I have never seen a case of polio or measles or small pox (and I work in the medical field). Vaccines are a major factor in the low infant/child mortality rate in developed countries with regular immunization schedules. Some comments made by Nicki's mom are inaccurate and I think they should be pointed out. Some of those that stood out to me are as follows: Her comment about not having insurance and, therefore, probably being placed last in line to be seen in the ER is INCORRECT. Insurance status is never even ascertained until the patient has seen the ER doctor, patients are prioritized based on acuity of illness. Also, Nicki's mom made a comment about H1N1 not being very wide spread and not the same thing as a "polio epidemic". H1N1 is known to be very contagious, therefore, the concern in the medical community about it's potential to reach epidemic status. This is why immunization is recommended, to PREVENT an epidemic. Google the "Spanish Influenza" and see how many people died in that epidemic. Even if the virus mutates (and hopefully it will mutate in a way that makes it less transmittable), you can still get partial protection from the vaccine. Do I think EVERYONE should be vaccinated, not necessarily. Do I think there can be "too much of a good thing", absolutely. But people, please do not fail to see the forrest for the trees.[/B]



I corrected my earlier post about H1N1 not being as widespread. It is now extremely widespread in Europe and contagious, yes of course. 

From what I remember, polio left many people crippled, flu does not cripple people, as far as I know. 

Sorry, I don't know a thing about the ER. If I was wrong about that, I apologize. I haven't been to the ER in 40 years.

I have read in medical reports that Immunization is generally about 70% effective.No vaccine is 100% effective, for varying reasons. The individuals immune response might not be robust enough, for one. If a virus mutates, isn't the vaccine for that particular strain then ineffective? I believe that there is rumor and talk that H1N1 has already mutated in Europe.

Spanish Influenza in 1918 was a terrible epidemic. It's a good thing that almost 100 years later now, sanitation and medicine has vastly improved. I believe that most people in 1918 died from secondary bacterial infections and it started in an army barracks and in close quarters on troop ships? I wonder how widespread and available the use of antibiotics was back then? But I'm not sure about that, I don't always remember what I read, and I have no time to do the research on this today.

_Vaccines save more people than injure_. I would like to read studies and statistics on that. Can you recommend any? How do they know that some later-in-life ongoing illnesses and immune issues can't be attributed to certain vaccines? Have there been any long term independent studies (meaning not funded by vaccine companies) done on that? If so, could you provide me with links? It is an important issue, especially for people like me and my good friend, who have been injured from vaccines. I'd like to know if we are the only ones, or if there are many more. If there haven't been any long-term studies, then how do we really know whether vaccines save more people than they injure? 

I don't think that _your _post and other pro-vaccinations posts here will "unduly influence/affect some people who won't do research." I respect _your _opinion and _your right to voice it_. It seems that when there is a difference of opinion that is when folks get nervous about "unduly influencing/affecting people." You or I do not coerce or brainwash, we state opinions. It is the individuals right and responsibility to form their own opinions. If they make a "wrong" decision, based on what you or I say, how is that your fault or my fault? Should we blame everyone else for our decision making? 

People are smart enough to make up their own mind on things, and aren't forced to think a certain way because they read a discussion regarding human health on a dog forum. There is an infinite amount of information on the internet and in libraries, and from doctors and health care professionals. I have stated time and time again, I am just an average person who has an interest in holistic health. If one is inclined to use conventional medicine, I doubt that they will abandon everything they believe in. If someone is on the fence, then let me just state right here: *PLEASE DO NOT MAKE UP YOUR MIND ABOUT THIS ISSUE FROM INFORMATION AND OPINIONS POSTED HERE ON THIS FORUM.* 

Bottom line is this: *Getting a vaccine is a risk. It even states that in the FDA report I pasted earlier. And, not getting a vaccine is a risk.

*Everyone has to decide for themselves what to do, which risk to take, which risk is worse. There are no sure things or guarantees in medicine, or in life. Medicine, coventional or holistic, is not God. There are no guarantees that if you are vaccinated, you will be perfectly safe and healthy and that the vaccine will even work. There are no guarantees that if you don't get vaccinated, you will be perfectly safe and healthy, even if you build your immune system. That is life. There are risks, there is danger, there is illness, people die. If folks are looking for a guarantee either way, well...it's just not there. We were given a brain to be able to discern how to live our lives. Every person is an individual and they must think for themselves and they can't blame other people for making them think a certain way. We are not brainwashing anyone here. 

There is a risk with most things we do in life. Let's be real. We all know that any statistics can be manipulated to agree with any point of view. 

Because some people here think that I and others who think like me are wrong, it seems that they believe that we should not voice our opinions here, in case someone makes a bad decision based on that opinion, and is harmed in some way. 

*So basically the bottom line is this: If I agree with you, I can voice my opinion. If I don't agree with you, I can't.* 


Isn't that a little bit scary?
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost: :ThankYou:


----------



## lovesophie

Here's another one:

Autism Research Review International, 1998, Vol. 12, No. 1, page 3

*Vaccinations: The Overlooked Factors*

Vaccinations, like motherhood and apple pie, have long been regarded as taboo topics, beyond criticism. No more. The publication in The Lancet of the article by Andrew Wakefield and associates, providing a well-documented mechanism for the long suspected role of MMR vaccines in causing autism, has raised an international furor.

I began to suspect a link between the DPT vaccination and autism as early as in the mid 1960s, based on letters from and interviews with many parents. Our Form E-3 parent questionnaire, dating from 1967, asked parents about their children's reaction to the DPT shot. H. L. Coulter and B. L. Fisher state, in their excellent book, DPT: Shot in the Dark (1985), "The phenomenon of early infantile autism was first observed and discussed by physicians in the early 1940s, a few years after the pertussis vaccine became more widely used in the United States .... The parallel to certain areas of pertussis vaccine damage is striking" (p. 123).

Readers of the Autism Research Review International (ARRI) are well aware of the autism-vaccine controversy (see ARRI 10/4, 10/1, 9/3, 9/2, 9/1, 6/3), but until now the mass media have been kept largely in the dark. In Britain, where there has been an epidemic of autism, with hundreds of families registering for projected class-action law suits, some newspapers have been devoting half-page or larger articles to the controversy.

Dr. Wakefield and his courageous collaborators have endured a torrent of criticism and abuse from those dedicated to silencing anyone challenging the sacred-cow status of vaccines. The fact is, vaccines are not nearly as safe, nor anywhere near as effective, as vaccination proponents claim.

Dr. Wakefield's opponents argue, quite speciously, that he is confusing association with causation, and that the autism link may be merely "coincidental."

I find it doubly ironic that the vaccine advocates accuse Wakefield of this elementary error in logic. That very argument was used just as wrongly--against vaccinations--by the opponents of Edward Jenner when he introduced vaccination to Europe. (It was used earlier in Asia.) Jenner's observation that milkmaids exposed to pox-infected cows developed a resistance to smallpox was attributed to coincidence. Fortunately for today's vaccine proponents, Jenner's critics did not succeed in dismissing his observations as merely "coincidence."

The second irony is that the critics who accuse Dr. Wakefield of confusing association with causation are guilty of doing that very thing--deliberately, not mistakenly--while trying to influence public policy, by claiming that vaccines cause steep declines in the incidence of disease when there is good evidence that the decline was often due to other factors -- that is, to coincidence.

*In their reply to Wakefield's article, "Vaccine adverse effects: causal or coincidental?," R.T. Chen and F. DeStephano (Lancet 2/28/98) present a table implying that the incidence of a number of diseases was enormously reduced by vaccinations. In fact, judging from data presented by Neil Z. Miller in his book Vaccines, are They Safe and Effective?, the reductions Chen and DeStephano cite are often coincidental rather than causal. In the case of measles, the death rate did drop precipitously over a period of four decades, but the death rate fell 95% before the measles vaccine was introduced! In the case of polio, the death rate had dropped 60% from its peak in the 1920s and '30s before the vaccines arrived in the 1950s. There is considerable evidence that the claims of benefit for other vaccines (e.g., pertussis, tetanus) are also greatly inflated.*

There is an enormous amount of credible evidence that vaccines can and do cause harm. In response to what was seen as a cause-and-effect relationship with sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), the Japanese government, in 1979, ordered the postponement of routine DPT shots until after the age of two. "SIDS has virtually disappeared from Japan (Neil Z. Miller, Immunization, Theory vs. Reality (1996).) In an article titled, "The Dark Side of Immunizations?," Science News (November 22, 1997) reported findings by scientists implicating the rise in diabetes and asthma to vaccines, and these allegations are just the tip of a very large iceberg. (The medical establishment's ferocious defense of vaccines as irrefutably safe and beneficial somehow reminds me of the Titanic.)

I am not saying that vaccinations are without value. I am saying that their benefits have been overstated, and their dangers dismissed much too carelessly.

Questions: The Black Death is estimated to have killed one third of the population of Europe before it subsided. Why did it subside? Largely because the immune system is a marvelously adaptable instrument which learned, naturally, how to cope with the plague.

Interesting though it is that one out of three died of the plague, it is even more interesting that two out of three lived. Why?

Although the headlines alarmed us all when some people died as a result of the swine flu vaccine and some people died when exposed to Legionnaire's disease, it is even more interesting that most people survived. Why? Why are some children injured by MMR shots and others not?

The answer is that people are very different, in many ways. Part of the difference is genetic. Another part is environmental.

We can't do much about the genetic part right now, but we can do a lot about each person's susceptibility to disease, including vaccine-induced disease, by dealing intelligently with the environment.

Toxic Exposure: It is no secret that our environment is loaded with toxins, many of which greatly impair not only the brain but also the immune system. Lead, mercury, pesticides, and solvents all can create havoc with the immune system. There is of course a huge literature on this topic. Two excellent recent books are: Our Toxic World: Who is Looking After our Kids by H. E. Buttram, M.D., and Richard Piccolo (1996), and Is This Your Child's World? by Doris Rapp, M.D. (1997).

Nutrition: In my view, the most important, and by far the most feasible, approach to preventing damage by toxins of all kinds, including the toxins in vaccines (vaccines contain mercury, aluminum and formaldehyde, in addition to germs) is to help the child's developing, immature immune system by providing generous amounts of the nutrients the body needs if it is going to be able to protect itself from a dangerous, toxin-laden world.
Autism Research Review International, 1998, Vol. 12, No. 1, page 3

In his book Every Second Child (1981), Archie Kalokerinos, an Australian physician, tells us that the death rate among the aborigine children he was assigned to help was an astounding 50%! His investigation showed these deaths to be associated with vaccinations, and he found the children's diets to be severely deficient in vitamin C. By merely administering vitamin C (100 mg per month of age), he dropped the death rate to nearly zero.

In my view, and in the view of many others who have studied these problems, every mother-to-be, starting well before conception, should be taking significant (several grams a day, at least) amounts of vitamin C, and every child should also be given supplements--especially in view of the stress on the immune system imposed by vaccines.

But vitamin C is by no means the only nutrient that should be supplemented if the immune system is to develop and function effectively. Nutrients known to be effective in autism, vitamin B6 and DMG, have been shown in laboratory studies to enhance immune function. The minerals zinc and selenium, both implicated in many cases of autism, are critical in immune function.

Nutrition is the single most important determinant of immune function, according to world authority R. K. Chandra, who specifically mentions zinc, selenium, iron, copper, vitamins A, C, E, B6, and folic acid.

The message is very clear: mothers should take a high quality, broad-spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement before conception, and during pregnancy and lactation. And every child should also be getting extra nutrients through mother's milk or along with food, if the immune system is to develop properly. The cost of not doing so may be very high.

Source



I also found the following to be very interesting, especially the parts in bold. The following are excerpts from CDC's in-house conference:

*Immunization Safety Review*
National Academy of Sciences 
Institute of Medicine, FO 3031 
2101 Constitution Ave., NW 
Washington, DC 20418 

Dear Committee members, 

SAFE MIND’s recently obtained the transcribed minutes to the Simpsonwood meeting 
held June 7-8, 2000 in Norcross, Georgia where the finding of the Vaccine Safety 
Datalink analysis of Thimerosal containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental outcomes 
were reviewed by a panel of experts. There were a number of additional findings not 
previously reported that were contained in this document that I would like to share with 
the committee. A copy of the entire document is available for the committee’s review 
along with a list of participants. 

SAFE MIND’s has summarized a number of comments made by the participants that we 
feel deserve special consideration by the committee. These comments will be categorized 
as introductory concerns related to the issue of thimerosal containing vaccines made by 
participants, CDC’s presentations of the VSD data and discussion comments made after 
the presentations. The comments in _Italics_ are that of SAFE MIND’s made in reference to 
the discussion. 

*Introductory comments expressed by participants.*

Dr. Johnston: Page 16 _comments made in reference to a prior meeting on thimerosal_ “As 
an aside, we found cultural differences between vaccinologist and environmental health 
people in that many of us in the vaccine arena have never thought about uncertainty 
factors before. We tend to be relatively concrete in our thinking. Probably one of the big 
cultural events, at least for me, was when Dr. Clarkson repetitively pointed out to us that 
we just didn’t get it about uncertainty (factors), and he was actually quite right.” 

Dr. Johnston: Page 20: _Referring to the mixture of both aluminum and mercury in 
vaccines_…there is absolutely no data including animal data, about the potential for 
synergy, additivity or antagonism, all of which can occur in binary metal mixtures that 
relate and allow us to draw any conclusions from the simultaneous exposure to these two 
salts in vaccines.” 

Dr. Clarkson: Page 21: “There is an issue that pharmacokinetics might be different too. 
Again this is all animal work, but the animal studies suggested, for example, a suckling 
animal does not eliminate methylmercury until the end of the suckling period, and there is 
a mechanism on the study for that. So there could be an age difference in the excretion 
rates.” 

Dr. Weil: Page 24: “One, up until this last discussion we have been talking about chronic 
exposure. I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is 
probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the 
migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous 
system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic 
substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are 
to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or 
one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. 
*There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a 
serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem.* The second point I 
could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the 
potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis 
data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.” 

*CDC’s presentation of the VSD data by Dr. Verstraeten and Dr. Rhodes.*

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 31: “ It is sort of interesting that when I first came to the CDC as a 
NIS officer a year ago only, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but one of the things 
I knew I didn’t want to do was studies that had to do with toxicology or environmental 
health. Because I thought it was too much confounding and it’s very hard to prove 
anything in those studies. Now it turns out that other people also thought that this study 
was not the right thing to do, so what I will present to you is the study that nobody thought 
we should do.” 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 40: *“...we have found statistically significant relationships 
between the exposures and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. 
First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own 
specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of 
age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, 
language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposure at one, 
three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which 
includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”*

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 42: *“But one thing that is for sure, there is certainly an under- 
ascertainment of all of these because some of the children are just not old enough to 
be diagnosed. So the crude incidence rates are probably much lower that what you 
would expect because the cohort is still very young.”*

Dr. Verstraten: Page 44: *“Now for speech delays, which is the largest single disorder in 
this category of neurologic delays. The results are a suggestion of a trend with a 
small dip. The overall test for trend is highly statistically significant above one.”* 

Dr. Verstraten: Page 45: “What this represents is the overall category of developmental 
delays, of which I have excluded speech delays because of the impression we had was 
some of the calculations were driven by this speech group, which was making up about 
half of this category. After excluding this speech group, the trend is also apparent in this 
group and the test for trend is also significant for this category excluding speech.” 

Dr Verstraeten: Page 68: “However, among prematures that becomes significant and we 
get relative risks up to two and three, whereby the ones that got more thimerosal are at a 
higher risk than the ones who got the combination vaccine.” 

Dr. Weil: Page 75: “I think that what you are saying is in term of chronic exposure. I 
think that the alternative scenario is that this is repeated acute exposures, and like many 
repeated acute exposures, if you consider a dose of 25 micrograms on one day, then you 
are above threshold. At least we think you are, and then you do that over and over to a 
series of neurons where the toxic effect may be the same set of neurons or the same set of 
neurologic processes, it is conceivable that the more mercury you get, the more effect you 
are going to get.” 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 78: “Then the last slide I wanted to show, there was a question of if 
there was any way from this data that we could estimate what would happen in the future 
if there is Thimerosal-free HepB and Thimerosal-free haemophilus influenza vaccine and 
only DTP has Thimerosal.” Page 79 “The second column would be the same scenario but 
now at six months. Assuming they have received two additional DTPs, so between three 
and six months of age they have increased their ethylmercury amounts by 50 micrograms. 
If I do in this current cohort with all its limitations, because there is also the HepB that 
exists in this cohort*, I can’t really take it out. It is significant for this one disorder which 
is language delay and it is quite high. Together with that, speech or language delay which 
is a combination of these two disorders, also becomes significant.” _* Dr. Verstraeten 
could not determine which children got HepB at birth in some cases so it was difficult to 
back the birth dose of Hep B out of the data._ 

Dr. Davis: Page 88: “Now one might imagine that [relative risk of 1.018] would just 
disappear once we actually confirmed these diagnoses from chart review, but in fact it did 
not. You see if the diagnosis was mentioned in the chart, the relative risk increases ever so 
slightly.” 

Dr. Rhodes: Page 93: “I think I had two purposes in mind going through the analyses I’ve 
done. One was a very quick verification that there wasn’t some crucial missing statement 
in 4,000 lines of programming, and there wasn’t. Tom’s programming was perfectly clear. 
I also wanted to try to take a different look at the data because I think sometimes we make 
choices in our analyses. We conceptualize the problem very quickly and then everything 
else kind of depends on those initial choices and we don’t always go down other 
pathways…I think we will see that I will approach the data analysis in somewhat of a 
different way, and I will talk about what some of the results are when I look at the data in 
somewhat of a different fashion.” 

Dr. Rhodes; Page 99: When you take the three month classification and see what happens 
to these kids a little later on...even seven to fourteen days later, you can see that there has 
been substantial movement from zero and the 12.5 mcg group. For example, after seven 
days at NCK, fully 27% of the zero group has received some sort of vaccination the next 
seven days and 42% have received some vaccination in the next 14 days. _This finding 
would argue that the proposed thimerosal cohort study involving neurodevelopmental 
testing should classify exposure by actual exposures the first year of life and not just on 
the first three months of life._ 

Dr. Rhodes: Page 104: “I am not advocating totally throwing them [the low mercury 
exposure group] away and never considering them in any analysis, but at least for now 
let’s think if we can establish if there are differences in this group of 37 to 75, then in a 
sense we really don’t need them.” 

Dr. Rhodes: Page 105: *“The other thing that happens at NCK is that even a year or 
two years after the policy change has been made and all kids are supposedly 
receiving the combination, there is an odd, small group of kids that supposedly 
receives separate DTP and Hib (note: with more thimerosal) and an unusually high 
percentage of those kids are outcomes.”* 

Dr. Rhodes Page 106 *“For example, if 1,500 kids were receiving one vaccine 
combination in that month of birth and 20 were receiving some other, I have 
removed the 20 completely from the analyses.* 

Dr Rhodes: Page 107. *“So you can push, I can pull. But there has been substantial 
movement from this very highly significant result down to a fairly marginal result.”* 
_Dr. Rhodes recommends excluding the lowest exposure cases, claiming that the fact that 
their exposures were low suggested family behavior that made them unusual. The low rate 
of outcomes in this group, of course, added significance. He also suggests excluding some 
cases that had unusually high exposures and outcomes at the same time, as any high 
exposure, high outcome group would support the signal._ 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 142: “But if I can have the next slide, here instead of the 
proportional hazard model, we did a logistic regression model. I didn’t use person time 
here and it’s a bit tough to define exactly the control group. However, if I do it for all 
ages and not looking at different years, and this is for speech, the outcome is almost 
identical to the proportional hazard model, which suggests to me that it is not a question of 
bringing the diagnosis forward, but it is really the overall number that drives this 
estimate.” 

Dr. Chen: Page 151: “One of the reasons that led me personally to not be so quick to 
dismiss the findings was that on his own Tom independently picked three different 
outcomes that he did not think could be associated with mercury (conjunctivitis, diarrhea 
and injury)and three out of three had a different pattern across different exposure levels as 
compared to the ones that again on a priority basis we picked as biologically plausible to 
be due to mercury exposure.” 

Dr Brent: Page 161: *“Wasn’t true that if you looked at the population that had 25 
micrograms you had a certain risk and when you got to 75 micrograms you had a 
higher risk.”* 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 161: “Yes, absolutely, but these are all at the same time. Measured 
at the same age at least.” 

Dr. Brent: Page 161: “I understand that, but they are different exposures.” 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 161: “Yes.” 

Dr. Brent: Page 161: “What is your explanation? What explanations would you give for 
that?” 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 161: *“Personally, I have three hypotheses. My first hypotheses 
is parental bias. The children that are more likely to be vaccinated are more likely 
to be picked up and diagnosed. Second hypothesis, I don’t know. There is a bias 
that I have not recognized, and nobody has yet told me about it. Third hypothesis. 
It’s true, it’s Thimerosal. Those are my hypotheses.”* 

Dr. Brent: Page 161: “If its true, which or what mechanisms would explain the finding 
with?” 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 162: *“You are asking for biological plausibility?”* 

Dr. Brent: Page 162: “Well, yes.” 

Dr. Verstraeten: Page 162: *“When I saw this, and I went back through the literature, 
I was actually stunned by what I saw because I thought it is plausible.* First of all 
there is the Faeroe study, which I think people have dismissed too easily, and there is a 
new article in the same Journal that was presented here, the Journal of Pediatrics, where 
they have looked at PCB. They have looked at other contaminants in seafood and they 
have adjusted for that, and still mercury comes out. That is one point. Another point is 
that in many of the studies with animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result 
depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on 
the age at which the animals were exposed. Now, I don’t know how much you can 
extrapolate that from animals to humans, but that tells me mercury at one month of age is 
not the same as mercury at three months, at 12 months, prenatal mercury, later mercury. 
There is a whole range of plausible outcomes from mercury. On top of that, I think that 
we cannot so easily compare the U.S. population to Faeroe or Seychelles populations. We 
have different mean levels of exposure. We are comparing high to high in the Seychelles, 
high to high in the Faeroe and low to low in the U.S., so I am not sure how easily you can 
transpose one finding to another one. So basically to me that leaves all the options open, 
and that means I can not exclude such a possible effect.” 

*Discussion comments made by participants after the presentations.*

Dr. Johnson: Page 198: *“This association leads me to favor a recommendation that 
infants up to two years old not be immunized with Thimerosal containing vaccines if 
suitable alternative preparations are available.* I do not believe the diagnoses justifies 
compensation in the Vaccine Compensation Program at this point. I deal with causality, it 
seems pretty clear to be that the data are not sufficient one way or the other. My gut 
feeling? It worries me enough. Forgive this personal comment, but I got called out a 
eight o’clock for an emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by C-Section. 
Our first male in the line of the next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a 
Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on. It will probably 
take a long time. *In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for 
this internationally, but in the meantime I think I want that grandson to only be 
given Thimerosal-free vaccines.”* 

Dr. Weil: Page 207: *“The number of dose related relationships are linear and 
statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear.* They 
are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect 
from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on 
experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other 
substances, so that I think you can’t accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn’t out of 
the ordinary. The Seychelles Island studies and somebody said the Faeroe Islands studies 
both, were chronic exposures. We are not talking necessarily about chronic exposure. We 
are talking about a series of acute exposures and at one point in time that exposure is 
much greater on one day than any of the Seychelles Islands. *The increased incidence of 
neurobehavioral problems in children in the past few decades is probably real…I 
work in the school system where my effort is entirely in special education and I have 
to say that the number of kids getting help in special education is growing nationally 
and state by state at a rate we have not seen before.* 

Dr. Weil: Page 208: “The rise in the frequency of neurobehavioral disorders whether it is 
ascertainment or real, is not too bad. It is much too graphic. *We don’t see that kind of 
genetic change in 30 years.”* 

Dr. Brent: Page 229: “The medical legal findings in this study, causal or not, are 
horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, 
pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a 
child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you 
could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree 
of certainty”. *But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the 
reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position 
from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am 
concerned.”* 

Dr. Clements: Page 247: “I am really concerned that we have taken off like a boat going 
down one arm of the mangrove swamp at high speed, when in fact there was not enough 
discussion really early on about which way the boat should go at all. And I really want to 
risk offending everyone in the room by saying that perhaps this study should not have 
been done at all, because the outcome of it could have, to some extent, been predicted, and 
we have all reached this point now where we are left hanging, even though I hear the 
majority of consultants say to the Board that they are not convinced there is a causality 
direct link between Thimerosal and various neurological outcomes. I know how we 
handle it from here is extremely problematic. The ACIP is going to depend on comments 
from this group in order to move forward into policy, and I have been advised that 
whatever I say should not move into the policy area because that is not the point of this 
meeting. But nonetheless, we know from many experiences in history that the pure 
scientist has done research because of pure science. But that pure science has resulted in 
splitting the atom or some other process which is completely beyond the power of the 
scientists who did the research to control it. And what we have here is people who have, 
for every best reason in the world, pursued a direction of research. *But there is now the 
point at which the research results have to be handled, and even if this committee 
decides that there is no association and that information gets out, the work that has 
been done and through the freedom of information that will be taken by others and 
will be used in ways beyond the control of this group. And I am very concerned 
about that as I suspect it is already too late to do anything regardless of any 
professional body and what they say…”* 

Dr. Bernier: Page 113: *“We have asked you to keep this information confidential.* We 
do have a plan for discussing these data at the upcoming meeting of the Advisory 
Committee on Immunization Practices on June 21 and June 22. At that time CDC plans to 
make a public release of this information, so I think it would serve all of our interests best 
if we could continue to consider these data. The ACIP work group will be considering 
also. If we could consider these data in a certain protected environment. So we are asking 
people who have a great job protecting this information up until now, to continue to do 
that until the time of the ACIP meeting. *So to basically consider this embargoed 
information.* That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for 
considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations.” 

Source


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## Nikki's Mom

I wanted to go ahead and post this new information. It is not my intention to create controversy or stir up any anger. I am posting this info to give you some new information from medical professionals/virologists on the Swine Flu (H1N1) and the vaccination, that you might not be aware of.

I've been following a Rhiza Labs Flu Tracker Forum, which is 99.9% devoted to conventional medicine and science. I am on there to gather info. (I do freelance research.)

From what I can gather from the most recent posts (I'm not familiar with virology/medical jargon) there is a mutation of the virus called D225G, which is serious, and ends up affecting the lungs. What I think they are now saying is this: *not only is the H1N1 vaccination not effective against that mutated virus strain, but that people who were vaccinated for H1N1 might be more susceptible to the mutated virus. 

*Here's a link to that particular thread.

http://fluboard.rhizalabs.com/forum/viewto...390&start=0

I'm not advising you against taking the H1N1 vaccination. I'm not advising you to take it. 

I just think that you need to know these things. I hope this helps you. And if anyone out there can translate what they are saying better than I can, please feel free. We all need all the info we can get.


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## Maglily

QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 11 2009, 09:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850115


> I had been warned about elderberry sometime ago but I couldn't remember why. I found this on WebMD..and it reminded me. I have a friend who has lupus and she was told to avoid it!
> 
> “Auto-immune diseases” such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Elderberry might cause the immune system to become more active, and this could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it’s best to avoid using elderberry.[/B]



Thanks, I have a friend with MS so I will tell her about that.


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## Nikki's Mom

QUOTE (Maglily @ Nov 28 2009, 07:14 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=855425


> QUOTE (Triste @ Nov 11 2009, 09:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850115





> I had been warned about elderberry sometime ago but I couldn't remember why. I found this on WebMD..and it reminded me. I have a friend who has lupus and she was told to avoid it!
> 
> "Auto-immune diseases" such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Elderberry might cause the immune system to become more active, and this could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it's best to avoid using elderberry.[/B]



Thanks, I have a friend with MS so I will tell her about that.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Fresh garlic, and odorless garlic in supplement form is known for its anti-viral properties without creating a cytokine storm like Elderberry for those with auto immune diseases. 

WHO confirms D225G mutation Vaccine failure.
http://www.recombinomics.com/News/11280901..._D225G_Vac.html


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## bellapuppy

NO swine flu shot for me. My Husband's daughter's pediatrician advised AGAINST giving her kids the vaccine. I will take my chances with extra vitamin C and D.


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## bellapuppy

QUOTE (LoveSophie @ Nov 14 2009, 04:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=851135


> Here are some more articles regarding vaccinations and autism, in case anyone's interested:
> 
> The Autism Increase: Research Needed on the Vaccine Connection
> 
> Autism: A Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning
> 
> The Role of Mercury in the Pathogenesis of Autism
> 
> The Autism-Vaccine Disaster
> 
> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Nov 13 2009, 05:14 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850736





> QUOTE (gopotsgo @ Nov 13 2009, 03:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=850701





> Steve, I think your posts were superb. Nicki's mom, I respect your right to have your opinion but I agree with Steve's concern that others who share your views can unduly affect/influence some who will not perform their own research and make the wrong decision for themselves. FACT: vaccines have saved more people than they have injured. Vaccines are why I have never seen a case of polio or measles or small pox (and I work in the medical field). Vaccines are a major factor in the low infant/child mortality rate in developed countries with regular immunization schedules. Some comments made by Nicki's mom are inaccurate and I think they should be pointed out. Some of those that stood out to me are as follows: Her comment about not having insurance and, therefore, probably being placed last in line to be seen in the ER is INCORRECT. Insurance status is never even ascertained until the patient has seen the ER doctor, patients are prioritized based on acuity of illness. Also, Nicki's mom made a comment about H1N1 not being very wide spread and not the same thing as a "polio epidemic". H1N1 is known to be very contagious, therefore, the concern in the medical community about it's potential to reach epidemic status. This is why immunization is recommended, to PREVENT an epidemic. Google the "Spanish Influenza" and see how many people died in that epidemic. Even if the virus mutates (and hopefully it will mutate in a way that makes it less transmittable), you can still get partial protection from the vaccine. Do I think EVERYONE should be vaccinated, not necessarily. Do I think there can be "too much of a good thing", absolutely. But people, please do not fail to see the forrest for the trees.[/B]



I corrected my earlier post about H1N1 not being as widespread. It is now extremely widespread in Europe and contagious, yes of course. 

From what I remember, polio left many people crippled, flu does not cripple people, as far as I know. 

Sorry, I don't know a thing about the ER. If I was wrong about that, I apologize. I haven't been to the ER in 40 years.

I have read in medical reports that Immunization is generally about 70% effective.No vaccine is 100% effective, for varying reasons. The individuals immune response might not be robust enough, for one. If a virus mutates, isn't the vaccine for that particular strain then ineffective? I believe that there is rumor and talk that H1N1 has already mutated in Europe.

Spanish Influenza in 1918 was a terrible epidemic. It's a good thing that almost 100 years later now, sanitation and medicine has vastly improved. I believe that most people in 1918 died from secondary bacterial infections and it started in an army barracks and in close quarters on troop ships? I wonder how widespread and available the use of antibiotics was back then? But I'm not sure about that, I don't always remember what I read, and I have no time to do the research on this today.

_Vaccines save more people than injure_. I would like to read studies and statistics on that. Can you recommend any? How do they know that some later-in-life ongoing illnesses and immune issues can't be attributed to certain vaccines? Have there been any long term independent studies (meaning not funded by vaccine companies) done on that? If so, could you provide me with links? It is an important issue, especially for people like me and my good friend, who have been injured from vaccines. I'd like to know if we are the only ones, or if there are many more. If there haven't been any long-term studies, then how do we really know whether vaccines save more people than they injure? 

I don't think that _your _post and other pro-vaccinations posts here will "unduly influence/affect some people who won't do research." I respect _your _opinion and _your right to voice it_. It seems that when there is a difference of opinion that is when folks get nervous about "unduly influencing/affecting people." You or I do not coerce or brainwash, we state opinions. It is the individuals right and responsibility to form their own opinions. If they make a "wrong" decision, based on what you or I say, how is that your fault or my fault? Should we blame everyone else for our decision making? 

People are smart enough to make up their own mind on things, and aren't forced to think a certain way because they read a discussion regarding human health on a dog forum. There is an infinite amount of information on the internet and in libraries, and from doctors and health care professionals. I have stated time and time again, I am just an average person who has an interest in holistic health. If one is inclined to use conventional medicine, I doubt that they will abandon everything they believe in. If someone is on the fence, then let me just state right here: *PLEASE DO NOT MAKE UP YOUR MIND ABOUT THIS ISSUE FROM INFORMATION AND OPINIONS POSTED HERE ON THIS FORUM.* 

Bottom line is this: *Getting a vaccine is a risk. It even states that in the FDA report I pasted earlier. And, not getting a vaccine is a risk.

*Everyone has to decide for themselves what to do, which risk to take, which risk is worse. There are no sure things or guarantees in medicine, or in life. Medicine, coventional or holistic, is not God. There are no guarantees that if you are vaccinated, you will be perfectly safe and healthy and that the vaccine will even work. There are no guarantees that if you don't get vaccinated, you will be perfectly safe and healthy, even if you build your immune system. That is life. There are risks, there is danger, there is illness, people die. If folks are looking for a guarantee either way, well...it's just not there. We were given a brain to be able to discern how to live our lives. Every person is an individual and they must think for themselves and they can't blame other people for making them think a certain way. We are not brainwashing anyone here. 

There is a risk with most things we do in life. Let's be real. We all know that any statistics can be manipulated to agree with any point of view. 

Because some people here think that I and others who think like me are wrong, it seems that they believe that we should not voice our opinions here, in case someone makes a bad decision based on that opinion, and is harmed in some way. 

*So basically the bottom line is this: If I agree with you, I can voice my opinion. If I don't agree with you, I can't.* 


Isn't that a little bit scary?
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost: :ThankYou:
[/B][/QUOTE]


I agree. Good post. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion. Do your own research and if you feel you need to take the vaccine do so. If not, don't. But don't chastise one for disagreeing with YOUR views. I agree there are pros and cons on this subject and I also know the virus has mutated AND I realize the WHO and other organizations MAY be manipulating data to either avoid panic or support their own concerns. Either way, the bottom line is we each are responsible for making our own intelligent and informed decisions. True, that is difficult in this day and age with all the biases and misinformation floating around there. As for me, NO way am I taking that vaccination.


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