# Backyard breeder



## Auntie Mame (Jan 29, 2008)

Hello All,

I am very new to the forum. I am also a 'first time' mom to two Maltese brothers. From reading the information provided in your posts I am starting to believe that I purchased the boys from a 'backyard breader'.

Truth is I did not do much research about the bread or the breader and responded to a newpaper add. This person was not even from my state but brought the puppies with her and posted the add while visiting a relative. It all seemed convenient enough to go check out the puppies and before you knew it, I was taking them home. I am happy that things turned out the way they did, I believe these little guys are meant to be mine (pics to follow)

Because she was from another state she did not have the mom with her. She said the mom was around 6 lbs and the did was around 3 lbs. She referred to the boys as teacup. Size is really important to me as I live in a very small apartment and plan to take the boys with me whenever possible. She also said they had their shots and just needed one more, promising to send me the shot slips (which she did later) They were born June 12 and we got them some time in Sept. 

Few things since:

They are 7 months old and already around 7 lbs. One is larger than the other. 
They both had worms in their stool the first night they spent with us, although she claimed she dewormed them
I have since dewormed them again and am now in the process of deworming them for a third time.
They needed 2 sets of shots, she herself administered the first shot, they had never seen a vet until I brought them.
One has curly hair (the larger one) and the smaller one has the straight hair.
They both had horrible ear infections when I first took them into the vet.

Rest assured I have taken care of the issues and the boys are happy and healthy.

I just wonder what some of you who know much better than myself think of this. How are puppies normally delivered from legitamate (not backyard) breaders? 

What is a fair price to pay for puppies from a breeder like this? - I realize this is a sensitive question, believe me when I say I would pay millions for my boys now, I love them so.....But I just wonder what the standard would be..........no regrets, just curious.......


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

first off, i just wanted to say hello and welcome to SM. 

secondly, i think BYB's will get what ever they want to charge for their dogs. people are uneducated when it comes to purchasing dogs properly, so they are willing to pay what the BYB asks. 

massimo came from a BYB and they were charging $1200 for males and $1500 for females. the second litter they charged $1500 for males and $2000 for females....and believe it or not, people paid that.

well known, reputable breeders have been known to charge $1500+ for males and $2000+ for females. and if i knew better i would have definitely purchased from one. 

it actually took this site to make me understand the differences between a BYB and a reputable breeder.

however, i truly feel that massimo was meant to come into my life. so i don't regret or question my decision.


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## llf060787 (Nov 19, 2007)

Welcome. I don't blame you for being curious. You've made me curious a well. I bought my maltepoo Bianca from a puppy broker. I bought the female and my sister bought the male. We were told that the mom was around 6-8 lbs and the dad around 12. Well to say the least, Bianca is now a year and a half and weighs 12 lbs and her brother is 22 lbs. He absolutely towers over her. I didn't do my homework either. I wasn't even planning on getting a pet. I was pretty much railroaded into it and haven't regretted a day of it since. I absolutely love my Bianca. To tell you the truth though, If I do get another dog I will probably first look into maltese rescue. There's so many that need loving homes.


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## karebear (Nov 4, 2007)

I also got Tesla from a BYB 4 months ago. He's almost 8 months old and when I first told my vet about how I got him, he was really concerned and did a thorough check up. He was surprised and told me that Tesla was well taken care of before he came to me. But, as you'll soon see as you go through the forums, that's not the case with most BYBs :smcry: 

My boyfriend bought Tesla for me for $550. I think the breeder was anxious to get rid of him because he was the last one of the litter and he was close to 12 weeks old. She had said he'd be 6 lbs full grown, but he's 14lbs of big fluffyness now :wub: 

From reading some of the threads here, it seems most people who buy from reputable breeders drive many miles or fly halfway across the country to see the parents and to pick the babies up.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I think there are some backyard breeders who do have nice dogs and that are well taken care of- i think they are just a minority. 

From a reputable breeder, prices typically start at what Carrie said, $1500 for a male $2000 for a female and that will give you a better chance of buying a maltese that fits the standard. The maltese standard calls for weight being between 4-7 lbs, with 4-6 prefered. 

Your puppies should have been vet checked before coming home to you
The 'meeting you elsewhere' thing is sometimes a scam because some breeders dont' want you going to their home where you'll see the horrible conditions the dogs live in

I just had my first litter of puppies and I have the mom here but the dad is in Tennesee so he's not available to be seen. They are now 4 months old and have had all their shots and have had an extensive blood workup to make sure they are ok. They have been to the vet 4 times because i am not comfortable vaccinating them myself. So that is how i 'deliver' my puppies. 

Hopefully you didn't pay show breeder prices for your babies, but as you said, they are worth a million and that's the important thing!!


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## pixxee84 (Jan 23, 2008)

I had a BYB experience, except I bought the puppy from a pet store, and was trying to rescue him since he had been there for over three months. After I got his papers, I did a little research and found out that the lady, and telephone number attached actually sold dogs in the classified section of the newspaper. I called her, pretending to want a Maltese, and asked if I could come see where they were raised, and meet the mom and dad Maltese. She quickley replied no, and said she did not allow people to "the kennel" and only agreed to bring pictures of the mom and dad. This was an immediate give away, and since I have actaully found her location and investigated myself.

When I get another Maltese (which I definenetly will!) I am ging to rescue or, get from one of a few breeders I have researched thouroughly and have good reputations. I think the price as others has said above $1500 plus, is reasonable because if the dogs have the proper conditions, and you know you are not going to come out with a "20 lb maltese", it is worth it. 

Just make sure to tell everyone you know who is thinking of purchasing a dog the information you have learned. A lot of people that are very informed about many other issues, still don't know what is acceptable/legal/allowed, as far as breeding dogs. Some of it is really disturbing and sick.!!!


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## 2maltese4me (May 8, 2006)

> I think there are some backyard breeders who do have nice dogs and that are well taken care of- i think they are just a minority.[/B]



Thank you for saying that, because I totally agree...but many do not.

I got Gracie from a lady, which some of you may consider a BYB...however she only had two litters...so I dont know what that is....just a novelty breeder?? The first produced one pup, which she kept. The second litter produced 4 pups which she sold and then had her female spayed.

She took the pups to the vet regulalry, had all their shots done. Mother and Father both had testing done prior to breeding. I have copies of the paperwork to prove it. the breeder did everything right as far as I can tell....other than the fact that she wasn't willing to keep them past 7wks of age. The breeder was a friend of a friend and my friend called me to tell me her friend had pups....and I was really wanting a play mate for Cooper...but didn't want to pay the $3000 that the "good breeders" in my area are charging. So I payed $800 for Gracie. She is a beautiful maltese...she does have seperation anxiety issues...and that is more than likely due to her being taken so young. Other than that, very healthy and what I consider a good quality dog.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This is a really good comparison between backyard breeders and responsible breeders.

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

Yes, Carrie is absolutely right. Backyard breeders charge whatever they want. Some sell their puppies for about half what the "going rate" for Maltese is, but many sell their puppies for as much if not more than what show breeders charge. I am always amazed at some of the puppies I see for sale on the internet for $3,000 with no closely related champions in their pedigree, no health testing or genetic screening done, no showing by the breeder, etc. when I know you can get an amazing puppy from Chalet, Josymir, Midis, etc. for much less.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Another problem not touched on regarding backyard breeders is
very often they do not know anything about the pedigrees and
are simply breeding pets to pets and getting lesser pets than
before....meaning more faults. Often these problems do not
manifest until the dog is over a year. Conscientious breeding
is so important..not just the cleanliness of the site and innoculations
but the education of the dogs' lineage. This is what you pay for
with exhibitor/breeders to avoid health issues and have a maltese
that better fits the standard.
I hope you are one of the lucky ones and have a long life with your
new babies. Welcome to SM.


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## Missy&Maggie (Jun 17, 2007)

:welcometosm: We would all love to see some pics of your boys!!!! :biggrin:


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## kookla31 (Dec 12, 2007)

I am very sorry for what your going thru.... I am sure it must be hard. You have come to the right place for questions to your answeres and for the comfort that you need and cannot find elsewhere. People here have been thru alot of what you have also been thru. So I am sure that they can help you.. 

I myslef am new too. And no I did not do my homework. I knew of Puppy Mills..... saw that stuff on TV. But just did not know that a cute fluffy dog at a pet shop could come from so much torture and horrific conditions. Just beyond beliefe.. 

I got Lucy for Xmas... she weighed.. like under two pounds 1.6 or something.. I will have to go back and look. She was tiny and I wanted a tiny dog. I did NOT know that a dog should never be sold before 12 weeks. Lucy was 8 weeks. I bought her. Took her home. She was sick. The vet thought she had parvo. I was lucky so to speak... She had a stomach virus... I nursered her back to health with liquid antibiotics and some special bland wet food. She made it thru and I was able to put her dry food with the wet food to make the tranformation.. But I am only telling you this because I know how it feels to get a sick dog.. I know that there are alot of others on this site that I COMMEND for being AMAZING PARENTS! They have sick doggies tooo and its sooo sad... you can see some of their pictures and you would never know they have so many meds..... 


But just wanted to say I am sorry for what your going thru and you are at THE RIGHT PLACE FOR ADVICE! People here have been here for years and can help you thru this... God bless you..
Stephanie


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## Tanner's Mom (May 27, 2005)

As you can see, there's lots of us here who got their babies from a BYB, where I got Tanner, so don't be too hard on yourself. I thought you found a dog by looking in the newspaper and if he was AKC registered, why that meant he was a "real" Maltese. Wrong-o! When I took Tanner in to be neutered and had the pre-op blood work done, I found he had liver problems. He is 3 years old and an asymptomatic MVD dog. I have spent as much getting him tested, biopsied, etc., as I would have had I bought him from a reputable breeder. The only thing Maltese about Tanner is his sweet Maltese face and the fact that he's white! He weighs 8 pounds, has cotton candy hair, a pig tail, his back legs are longer than his front legs, pigment is spotty. But I don't care. He is my baby and I love him and the good things that came out of this experience is that I found SM and learned about the breed. I'm lucky to be able to take him to work with me and I use every opportunity to tell people not to do what I did. If all of us were able to educate just one person, think how much better off some of these little babies would be.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

My first Malt was from a small mill...or large-scale BYB. The breeder was letting them go at 11 weeks and held her another week for me. I lucked out in that she was in good condition - clean, no worms, started with her shots, etc. A year later she had epilepsy and incontinence. She was 15 lbs and obviously had Bichon in her. She was a wonderful dog, though. 

Soda Pop came to me well on his way to house-training, done with his vaccines, well-adjusted, and was exactly as the breeder said he would be. And I can call his breeder any time and she will always answer my questions.


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## Auntie Mame (Jan 29, 2008)

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on this. As it would end up, my concerns now seem meaningless in comparision to the potential. Shortly after I purchased the boys and things started to happen, I started to feel like I had rescued the boys from that breeder. Now, my thoughts contradict this theory, as I realize I have enabled her to continue her business by being her customer, the seriousness of this lesson learned here on SM. 

Still need to get photos of the boys on here, can't wait to share. They certainly are my little sweethearts....

Thanks again.....


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

Hello Hello & Welcome!

I just wanted to touch on your weight concerns - Atticus weighs a touch over 8lbs - (and if he wasn't a piggy he'd get rid of the touch.. ha ha)
He weighed 5lbs at 5 months (when I got him). Weight is hard to know - but I think 1 - 2 more pounds wouldn't be unreasonable to expect.

Rugby weighed 4 lbs when we got him at 6 months and now he weighs 5.1 lbs. he's a very picky eater - who'd rather eat raw then dry, but Atticus would rather eat dry then raw.


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## Cupcake2007 (Jan 22, 2008)

hi everyone!!!

my boyfriend bought cupcake for me from a BYB. the lady seemed nice and all he paid for her was 300. although she didnt come with papers, that wasnt much concern to me since it was love at first sigh, with cupcake of course haha. Cuppy was 12 weeks and had her first set of shots and the worming thing also, she was in good health. it was up until a couple weeks ago that i was getting concened because she seemed to be getting bigger than most of the pups on here. and i paniced and i was mad because i felt that she had tricked my boyfriend. but it turned out that she is a full breed because i called the lady and i needed to know for sure and she let me see the momma and dad. the reason for her not having her litters registered is because of those puppy mill breeders. i wasnt aware of all this BYB and puppy mills and stuff since this is my first little fur baby. As the time passed, i dontcare where she came from and what she is, i love my little Cupcake. as long as shes happy and healthy, thats all that should matter.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> as long as shes happy and healthy, thats all that should matter. [/B]


yes. that's all that should matter. unfortunately massimo wasn't one of the lucky ones. his problems didn't start showing up until after he was a year old. he has a chronic illness [epilepsy] for which he requires two different meds daily for the rest of his life, early onset periodontal disease which is genetic and will need surgery for, and a grade 2-3 luxating patella which he will also eventually need surgery for. problem is, they are reluctant to do anything that involves putting him under [since he's epileptic], it's extremely risky. 

but he's my little angel. i love him more than i thought i could love anything. he's special and requires special attention.

see, he's the main reason i don't work, and if i decided to seek employment it would only be part time as i need to be present for and document his seizures and make sure he's ok after he has one. also, since he was diagnosed, we haven't been able to go on any family vacations or even leave the house for extended periods of time unless he's with us. 

having a chronically ill dog completely changes your life....


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I agree. Lady is also poorly bred, but her health problems didn't start until she was four. She now has epilepsy, diabetes, arthritis, allergies, hypothyroidism and now Cushings. All of her diseases are probably genetic except Cushings which she got from taking steriods for her arthritis.

A bargain puppy from a backyard breeder is no bargain in the long run, believe me. Once those genetic time bombs start going off, the vet bills can skyrocket. I spend close to $300 a month now for Lady's medications and diabetic supplies. With all her vet visits to monitor her various conditions, I figured I spend close to $5,000 a year on her. That's a big chunk of my budget when you think that those are after tax dollars.

As with Carrie, Lady is very difficult to leave. She needs insulin shots twice a day exactly twelve hours apart. She either has to come with me or I don't go. She has seizures, too, but thank heavens they are under control with medications.

Yes, having a chronically ill dog does change your life.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> hi everyone!!!
> 
> my boyfriend bought cupcake for me from a BYB. the lady seemed nice and all he paid for her was 300. although she didnt come with papers, that wasnt much concern to me since it was love at first sigh, with cupcake of course haha. Cuppy was 12 weeks and had her first set of shots and the worming thing also, she was in good health. it was up until a couple weeks ago that i was getting concened because she seemed to be getting bigger than most of the pups on here. and i paniced and i was mad because i felt that she had tricked my boyfriend. * but it turned out that she is a full breed because i called the lady and i needed to know for sure and she let me see the momma and dad. the reason for her not having her litters registered is because of those puppy mill breeders.* i wasnt aware of all this BYB and puppy mills and stuff since this is my first little fur baby. As the time passed, i dontcare where she came from and what she is, i love my little Cupcake. as long as shes happy and healthy, thats all that should matter. [/B]



I'm so glad you have your little Cupcake!! I was confused though by this 'reason' that the breeder gave you. What does your puppy's registration status have to do with those puppy mill breeders? Are the parents from puppy mills? 

I'm glad you got to see the parents! Were they on the larger size? I bet that was fun seeing where your baby 'came' from!


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## llf060787 (Nov 19, 2007)

Everyone talks about the puppies that come from puppy mills and BYB. I fell bad for all of the breeders (moms) that are there. In my opinion, those dogs are seriously neglected, they don't get to leave. They're just breeding machines. My heart goes out to them.


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## Cupcake2007 (Jan 22, 2008)

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i guess u would say they were normal size. haha cupcake only looked big because her hair was growing out. but now shes shaved. my poor baby. but shes still cute and shes little. lol i wanted to bring all the little babies home with me, but robby said no. Booo to him.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

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I'm confused, too. What do puppy mills have to do with not registering her puppies? Most puppy mills use "alternative" registries like CKC, APRI, ACA, etc. The papers don't mean anything, though.

Is that why? If her puppies can't be registered with the AKC she isn't pretending they have papers like most millers do?


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## Morkie4 (Oct 13, 2006)

Kallie is from a puppymill for sure; we have her "pedigree" and information about her from the original owner who purchased her from a "petshop." Brandy, well, her background is unknown as she was just dropped off at an outside pound and we adopted her from a rescue organization. They were both in need and at risk.............ok so I am a sucker for rescues......................and PROUD OF IT! Maybe some day I will get one from a reputable breeder but that will happen sometime in the distant future.


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## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

*I had my Carin Terrier for 17 years when he went to the bridge and I must have lived in a cocoon because I knew absolutely nothing about puppy mills and BYB!! I am so embarassed to say that but it is true. But I know my stuff now and I know it because of this site.

We got Pacino from a pet store and so far have been lucky with him. I would NEVER buy from a pet store again and I make sure that I pass along the knowledge that I have learned on SM and I have made it my mission to research all I can.

My Ralphie came from a Metropolitan Maltese Rescue and we know who his previous owners are and I have all of his paperwork, AKC papers and vet papers as he was an owner surrender. I was so impressed with the Rescue that I joined them and now volunteer for them as much as I can.

It is funny though because Pacino is my smaller guy, weighing in at 7 pounds and Ralphie is my bigger guy weighing in at :new_shocked: 13 pounds!! Pacino's mother was 6 pounds and his father was 5 pounds and Ralphie's mom was 5 pounds and his father was 4.5 pounds!! So as far as size and weight it varies.

With all that I know about puppy mills and pet stores I could ring the necks of every single person running them. At least now there is so much more media about puppy mills and BYB and everytime I get something in my email concerning them I forward them to everyone I can. The best thing to do is get the word out there and hopefully this will help.

Marie & the Boys*


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

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This sounds like the lady I got my first Maltese from. She had a male & female and one female from a previous litter that she had kept. And then she had this one litter I got Casper from. He was AKC registered and it wasn't a limited registration (not sure if they even had those back in 1993); I'd never heard of a limited registration until I got Midis. I knew nothing about BYB or reputable breeders or puppy mills or even much about Maltese at the time I got Casper. After he passed away last February at the age 14 years I did a lot more research and ended up with a very reputable breeder. I was at first put off because she bred "show quality", but that was my ignorance. She let me know that they were not ALL show quality; she also had pet quality, and so that is what I got. 

I feel good about where I got Midis and I don't feel bad about where I got Casper, because it was really a nice environment. I don't know that you would call her a BYB (Casper's first mommy, I mean), but her home and her dogs were all well-taken care of.

Cyndi


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