# This might not sit right with everyone



## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

but I have to ask the question. Rescue groups are overloaded. Eddie just posted on FB that AMAR funds are running low and that there has been some changes in AMAR (I don't know what changes, she did not elaborate) and that for the time being they cannot take in any more rescues. That being said, here is my question :
Wouldn't it be better to euthanize some of the sick dogs instead of spending so much money on them ? Especially those who need extensive surgeries who cost an arm and a leg. The money saved could be used to save more healthy ones. And there would be more space in foster homes for healthy ones. I know it is heartbreaking but there is no way that all of them can be saved. We need to be realistic. And it is not easy to find families who are able to care for a sick dog for the rest of his life. A lot of them have been dumped in the first place probably because the family they were with could not afford the vet bills. Which brings me to another reality that a lot of you don't want to take in consideration. You keep telling people who cannot afford a puppy from a show breeder to get a rescue dog. How on earth will they be able to care for a rescue who has health problems ? That limits the pool of forever homes too. 
I hope we can have a civil discussion about this. I am open minded and not set to black and white.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

I am hoping that's what happens to the money we donate to the rescues. I know currently there's too many dogs that need it, but perhaps in time we would reach a point where money available to treat those sick dogs > money needed. 

I personally don't think a dog that's sick should be put down. Every dog deserves a chance. If the problem is monetary support, we should work to raise more money.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I have to agree about some of the really sick and elderly dogs in rescue. Unless you have an unlimited budget it might be best to humanely let some of them go. You have to look at allocating resources to benefit the largest numbers. As for urging people to get a rescue dog, I stand by that 100% They are vetted prior to adoption. Dogs with "special needs" go to families that can care for them. The usual alternative to finding a puppy from a show breeder (including some SM members themselves) is a BYB dog vs. rescue. They could just as well have health problems with the BYB dog and since there is no vetting, the BYB dog now becomes a rescue when they can't care for it. I stand by the advice of looking at rescue dogs for anyone searching for a dog. Show/reputable breeders aren't for everyone, but BYB should be for NO ONE!


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## Leila'sMommy (Oct 20, 2012)

That is a tough one for me. In my heart, I don't like to think about any being euthanized if there is a way to treat them and keep them painfree. On the other hand, my brain says that if there is no hope of the really sick ones to become better and the money and space is so tight that something's gotta give, then euthanasia may be the more practical answer. That is, if there is no one willing to take the dogs and care for them. I'm so glad I don't have to be the one to make that decision. I wish I could take at least one, but I'm not able to right now. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

In better times, reasonably healthy and reasonably young Maltese did not need rescue groups--shelters could get them adopted pretty easily. In fact, people would often compete for them! I once showed up at my shelter at the time they were giving out numbers, and there were three other people there already. 

Now, in these bad economic times, things are different. They can languish in shelters for extended periods of time. I think that the rescue leadership and volunteers really do try to make good decisions based on the needs of the dog and the treatability and survivability of the condition. Broken bones can heal, respiratory infections can be treated, chronic conditions may only require an inexpensive medication once the diagnosis is made and the dog is successfully started on treatment. Unfortunately sometimes the extent of dog's problems are not clear until they are gotten out of the public shelter or from the hands of a surrendering owner. 

I have accepted an owner surrender Maltese and pulled several from shelters and I have paid a lot of their expenses myself, since I was the one who saw the dog and could have walked away. But I didn't walk away, and they got adopted. I think I made good decisions about that. If I thought a dog I fostered had a good chance of adoption, I would try to see that it got adopted. If it didn't, then I would feel good about being a foster failure for that one. 

I am currently taking care of an elderly schnauzer that another rescue group pulled from a shelter at about age 8, about 4 years ago. She had been very neglected and probably used as a puppy machine. I have spent a lot of time and my own funds to give her as good a life in her senior years as I can. I feel that in the scheme of the universe it balances out the bad times she had before. 

There are choices that have to be made by groups and individuals. Finances are always an issue. But there are other aspects to those choices, too. Simply put, it's complicated!

Disclaimer: I'm speaking for myself as an individual and not for an organization.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

I've thought the same thing myself... spend thousands to save one dog or use it to pull 10... But many times rescues are lower on fosters than funds... Many have to leave fluffs in shelters because they don't have enough fosters to take them.
Funds are low for everyone and sadly animals don't get government help the way other human assistance groups get.

I've spent my own time and money helping our local shelter and fosters I've had..
Two of my "free dogs" have cost me the most due to their previous neglect....

It hurts my heart to think of it in those terms... We're leaving our estate to rescue hoping it will be of help in some small way towards the tens of thousands of dogs and cats in need.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I do have to agree with you Jane, intellectually. I think it would be better to use limited funds to save young adoptable dogs. But, I have been emotional about some very sick dogs who required very expensive medical care, moved enough to donate to the specific dog's medical care. I have no answer. It makes sense to use rescue funds to do the most for the most dogs, and let the very sick and elderly go on a sweet journey to the Rainbow Bridge....BUT.

This is a good discussion, one that I have avoided speaking up on. You are brave to bring it up, but you appear to be a person who is not intimidated by having an unpopular view. Good for you.


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

That is a hard one, but I guess we will always try to save as many as we can. Now, that the government is in charge of our health care, get ready because one day they will use that same logic on us.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

This is one of those hard questions, and something I try not to think about too much. Intellectually, the answer has got to be spend money to find homes for the healthy adoptable ones, but do the seniors and sick not deserve some comfort and love that they may never have experienced? I would find it impossible to pick who could live and who should die, but realistically since all cannot be saved because of limited funds, save the ones that have the best chance of finding homes.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I am mostly thinking about the very sick ones who cost a lot of money. A healthy senior is still adoptable. It just might take longer. I know it is not an easy choice to make but with limited funds and not enough foster homes you are stuck. I am not surprised when mss says that she paid some expenses herself, I would do the same thing and I am sure a lot of those fosters do it too. I agree, it's complicated. When you think with your heart you want to save them all, but when you think with your head and look at your funds you have to make a choice, if you want to or not.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I agree this is a difficult decision for rescues to make. And no, we cannot save them all. Recently NMR has had to make that very difficult decision where a fluff was too sick to have a quality life. So, yes, we do make that difficult choice, but we also try very hard to give them all a chance to receive medical care if it will help them live a happy life.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

mdbflorida said:


> That is a hard one, but I guess we will always try to save as many as we can. Now, that the government is in charge of our health care, get ready because one day they will use that same logic on us.


Oh Mags, that will never happen. Watching my very old relatives take 25 years to die, when medicare spent something like a million dollars to keep them alive...while we self employed could no way afford medical insurance. I loved my father and aunt and uncle who lived well into their nineties. But, medicare kept them alive when they could not feed themselves, when they could not clean themselves, when they could not relieve themselves. They slept in front of the television for years, while medicare spent a fortune to keep them alive in misery. But we, as a society will never draw the line. Young people cannot afford medical insurance or medical care, but old people who can't even chew their food have enormous funds poured into keeping them alive for one more year. I will not go that route. But, I seriously doubt that the government will ever be brave enough to say no to spending a million dollars on the last year of life. If it had direct affect on me, I would welcome a policy that said: if you can't feed yourself and go to the bathroom on your own...it is time to say goodbye. I loved my father, my aunt, my uncle, but I sincerely wish that they would have been left to die in dignity, rather than being preserved ....by medicare....into high anxiety and fear. 

I believe in eternal life of spirit.


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## plenty pets 20 (Jul 8, 2006)

Just to clarify what is happening on AMAR. This also happens with most rescue's that are working to take in the rescues that need us. Rescue's mostly get the dogs that have the health issues. The shelters adopt out the young, healthy, cute dogs and put a higher fee on them then Rescue rates. So Rescue's are not trying to compete with the public for those dogs.
Rescue is just what the word implies, taking on the ones with health issues. We get owner surrenders that are sometimes young or finds off the street that we get calls on. 
AMAR has just had a lot of very expensive dogs and most are actually young. Two hit by cars and laid for days in the shelters with broken limbs with people begging Rescue to take them. So we have and both had multiple brakes of leg and pelvis. So extensive surgery and many months of rehab and many vet visits cost a LOT. 
We also have a young female that will need heart surgery when she gets to a year old and hopefully makes 4lbs, but will probably be only 3 lbs full grown. that's an expense we have to hold funds back for. We have had bladder stones on a 6 yrs old last week, mange that is long term and the list goes on and on.
All the fosters are stuffed full, across the U.S...Its just one of those times for this rescue that its time to say we have to wait a bit before taking on anymore rescues. Might be just a few weeks, to get some of the healthy ones placed.
The changes in AMAR, are that Judy Crowe resigned as National coordinator, due to health and just overwhelmed with fosters too.
That just happened on Thursday and we have been working to get the AMAR board positions filled and elected a new National Coordinator. All is well and we continue working to rescue and care for the dogs we have. 
Any of you on facebook see Gayle's new fosters?? They are two little darling girls that came all the way from Florida, flight was donated.
Thanks for all the donations to AMAR for Lynn's raffle. We put your donations to good use.
Edie


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## plenty pets 20 (Jul 8, 2006)

Wanted to add that AMAR and myself personally have had to make the hard decision to let a sick dogs go. I totally believe in quality of life and letting go if its not possible. I want that for myself too, so why make anything suffer longer then they need to??


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I just want to say that I have the highest regard for you Edie, and what you do for Maltese rescue. I hope that in the near future I will own my own home and be able to foster...although, I doubt my ability, I would try....as soon as I have my forever home, I promise to foster.


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## ckanen2n (Jan 2, 2012)

I just can't fathom allowing a sick or injured animal to die unloved. I do think there comes a time when a pet is so old/ill that they have no quality of life - and they will TELL YOU! 
I am just a die hard animal lover. It even pains me to see a horse fall down in TV westerns! I do trust AMAR and NMR for using good judgement. We also need stricter laws to force pet owners to be responsible!


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

mdbflorida said:


> That is a hard one, but I guess we will always try to save as many as we can. Now, that the government is in charge of our health care, get ready because one day they will use that same logic on us.


I agree with you, one day the government will use the same logic. 



Sylie said:


> Oh Mags, that will never happen. Watching my very old relatives take 25 years to die, when medicare spent something like a million dollars to keep them alive...while we self employed could no way afford medical insurance. I loved my father and aunt and uncle who lived well into their nineties. But, medicare kept them alive when they could not feed themselves, when they could not clean themselves, when they could not relieve themselves. They slept in front of the television for years, while medicare spent a fortune to keep them alive in misery. But we, as a society will never draw the line. Young people cannot afford medical insurance or medical care, but old people who can't even chew their food have enormous funds poured into keeping them alive for one more year. I will not go that route. But, I seriously doubt that the government will ever be brave enough to say no to spending a million dollars on the last year of life. If it had direct affect on me, I would welcome a policy that said: if you can't feed yourself and go to the bathroom on your own...it is time to say goodbye. I loved my father, my aunt, my uncle, but I sincerely wish that they would have been left to die in dignity, rather than being preserved ....by medicare....into high anxiety and fear.
> 
> I believe in eternal life of spirit.


Sylvia, I know how hard it is to watch ones we love go through the process of growing old and passing on, we never know what we might be faced with one day, but I truly believe we have the right to live, I feel God is the only one that can make that decision for us, I would hate to think a group of doctors would make the decision on weather my life was worth living or not based on what it would cost to keep me alive. I do believe one day we might be faced with others making the decision for us, that will be a terrible day. I am thankful I know where I am going after I pass on, I have eternal life with Jesus Christ it brings me great comfort and peace in my soul.
now back to the subject, I know old dogs and sick dogs can become a financial burden, I believe the ones who have gave their lives and time to help with rescues have to look at each dog and determine what is best 



ckanen2n said:


> I just can't fathom allowing a sick or injured animal to die unloved. I do think there comes a time when a pet is so old/ill that they have no quality of life - and they will TELL YOU!
> I am just a die hard animal lover. It even pains me to see a horse fall down in TV westerns! I do trust AMAR and NMR for using good judgement. We also need stricter laws to force pet owners to be responsible!


I understand how people feel like sick dogs or old dogs can be a burden on fiancés, but I feel they have the right to live, I agree with you that they will let us know when it's time. I'm sure the ones who give their time to rescue do it because they love the animals, I'm sure it breaks their hearts when they do have to help a dog cross over to Rain Bow bridge, I trust their judgement. If I thought it was only because of money it would break my heart


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

plenty pets 20 said:


> Just to clarify what is happening on AMAR. This also happens with most rescue's that are working to take in the rescues that need us. Rescue's mostly get the dogs that have the health issues. The shelters adopt out the young, healthy, cute dogs and put a higher fee on them then Rescue rates. So Rescue's are not trying to compete with the public for those dogs.
> Rescue is just what the word implies, taking on the ones with health issues. We get owner surrenders that are sometimes young or finds off the street that we get calls on.
> AMAR has just had a lot of very expensive dogs and most are actually young. Two hit by cars and laid for days in the shelters with broken limbs with people begging Rescue to take them. So we have and both had multiple brakes of leg and pelvis. So extensive surgery and many months of rehab and many vet visits cost a LOT.
> We also have a young female that will need heart surgery when she gets to a year old and hopefully makes 4lbs, but will probably be only 3 lbs full grown. that's an expense we have to hold funds back for. We have had bladder stones on a 6 yrs old last week, mange that is long term and the list goes on and on.
> ...





plenty pets 20 said:


> Wanted to add that AMAR and myself personally have had to make the hard decision to let a sick dogs go. I totally believe in quality of life and letting go if its not possible. I want that for myself too, so why make anything suffer longer then they need to??


Edie, thank you for updating here. You know just how difficult it is to have to say "no" to a fluff in need and how painful it is to accept that a fur-baby is just too sick to be able to save. We applaud all that you do and hope the "hiatus" is short-lived!


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

Sylie said:


> Oh Mags, that will never happen. Watching my very old relatives take 25 years to die, when medicare spent something like a million dollars to keep them alive...while we self employed could no way afford medical insurance. I loved my father and aunt and uncle who lived well into their nineties. But, medicare kept them alive when they could not feed themselves, when they could not clean themselves, when they could not relieve themselves. They slept in front of the television for years, while medicare spent a fortune to keep them alive in misery. But we, as a society will never draw the line. Young people cannot afford medical insurance or medical care, but old people who can't even chew their food have enormous funds poured into keeping them alive for one more year. I will not go that route. But, I seriously doubt that the government will ever be brave enough to say no to spending a million dollars on the last year of life. If it had direct affect on me, I would welcome a policy that said: if you can't feed yourself and go to the bathroom on your own...it is time to say goodbye. I loved my father, my aunt, my uncle, but I sincerely wish that they would have been left to die in dignity, rather than being preserved ....by medicare....into high anxiety and fear.
> 
> I believe in eternal life of spirit.



Sylvia, I really hope you are right but I think the days of them paying for everything are really over given our economic debt and new polices in place. And I hope none of us are faced with that in the future.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Geez, this must have to be the hardest part of being in charge of rescue. Deciding who lives and who dies. Glad I don't have to make those decisions.

I do agree with Jane in that sometimes we hear of some rescue groups spending thousands of dollars on one dog when so many are in need...and I do have those very thoughts run through my head..., but would never have the nerve to say it.:blush:

All rescue groups need strong, experienced leaders to make those hard decisions. There's no way I could do it. ...and I applaud those who do it...in a responsible manner. :thumbsup:


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## maggie's mommy (Mar 12, 2006)

This is a very good discussion and one, I fear, has no easy answer. I am in favor of saving as many as can be saved if resources are available and quality of life can be attained. When resources are not available, then difficult decisions need to be made (and it pains me to say that). 

I believe that the problem goes much deeper than whether to save them or not. Until the public is educated and accepts the responsibility of spaying and neutering their pets, this problem will never be solved.


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

I applaud rescue organizations! It's so sad to see what happens to some dogs. But I do understand what Jane is saying. I believe in quality of life. I had to make a decision last year to let my Rocco go. He could have lived for awhile longer, but he was suffering just trying to breathe. Quality of life is so important.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

maggie's mommy said:


> This is a very good discussion and one, I fear, has no easy answer. I am in favor of saving as many as can be saved if resources are available and quality of life can be attained. When resources are not available, then difficult decisions need to be made (and it pains me to say that).
> 
> I believe that the problem goes much deeper than whether to save them or not. Until the public is educated and accepts the responsibility of spaying and neutering their pets, this problem will never be solved.


 
:goodpost:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I agree that there is no easy answer to this question. Janine is right that we can't save them all and need to prioritize the money. But that is a difficult decision to make.

What Edie said about quality of life is the most important thing to consider, imho.

Seems we will never solve this problem, but I know that we would all like too. We are a generous family of friends that support Rescue any way we can -- that's so obvious from all the love, devotion, money, prayers, fosters, volunteers, etc. that SM does.

Overall it just breaks my heart that decisions like this have to be made at all.


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## gopotsgo (May 21, 2009)

As so many have eloquently said, the rescues that often require large sums of money often only need it as a one time thing. I have fostered some of these surgical pups myself and after the appropriate post surgical care they are normal, happy dogs with a normal life ahead of them. Euthanizing a dog like that is akin to putting down a human who broke their leg because it "cost too much". Yes, there are cases of elderly pups with the usual problems of the aged who become permanent fosters. In my experience they usually don't cost a lot more in money but they do require much in love and time and God bless the fosters who take these special cases on. I have known rescue to sadly euthanize a dog because it's future wasn't pleasant, such as in pain or no quality of life. It is never a decision made easily but it is made with the consideration of "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few". 

In regards to human healthcare, being on the frontline does give me some insight and I, sadly, don't see any near future where dignity and quality of life are considered. Not when politicians are involved. I agree with you Sylvia wholeheartedly that someone who cannot talk, eat, walk or recognize anything should not continue to drain the system. That goes for the elderly as well as the young that I have seen, children stiff as boards, fed through tubes, draining the system via frequent hospitalizations because of infections. And dear Paula, the system tries to thwart God by the use of machines. This is not God's way.

In regards to AMAR, Edie has my full support and I think the changes are for the best. I am confident that AMAR will come out stronger and better organized. Thank you everyone for your continued support of rescue.


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## IzzysBellasMom (Jan 16, 2013)

We recently had a BYB volunteer to give up 26 dogs. They were mainly maltese, but some yorkies. They were pretty bad matted up. The local sheriff allowed her to keep another 50. The local rescue groups are still fighting him to make them give up the other dogs since they are not being cared for properly. 

Knowing this and following them on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lake-Charles-Dog-Rescue-Examiner/239441789416472) 

I have a co-worker that after a year since her 12 yo boston terrier passed, decided she was ready for another dog. Her mother and sister both have yorkies and her MIL that lives upstairs has a shih Tzu. She has a 4 yo mildly autistic child. She and her husband work full time. I showed her the pictures of the girl yorkie (Bella) and girl maltese (Bailee) that still have not found a home. She was very interested and called the Rescue group. She was turned down because she is not a stay at home mom and her child is under the age of 8. 

I just want to say that is not fair!! If her child is around other small dogs and lives with other small dogs, that should not be an issue. Also we all work!! So unless you stay at home you shouldn't own an animal?? It just doesn't make any since to me. So this girl is now looking into a BYB to purchase a yorkie. I don't blame her!!! If I went to the rescue and they told me no, what other choice do you have???


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

"In regards to human healthcare, being on the frontline does give me some insight and I, sadly, don't see any near future where dignity and quality of life are considered. Not when politicians are involved. I agree with you Sylvia wholeheartedly that someone who cannot talk, eat, walk or recognize anything should not continue to drain the system. That goes for the elderly as well as the young that I have seen, children stiff as boards, fed through tubes, draining the system via frequent hospitalizations because of infections. And dear Paula, the system tries to thwart God by the use of machines. This is not God's way." QUOTE from GOPOTSGO

I agree having watched too many from the healthcare caretakers end ( geri psych) to family and friends,wither away to living corpses not being allowed to go but sustained by machines and bureaucracy. Watched my brother in law wither down to 70 pounds, his eyes sunk into his head, he couldn't close his eyelids so we had to put a gel on his eyes to keep them mist and he was blind by then... That's not God's will ,sadly, it's lawyers,lawsuits and money..
I think when you get to a point you're so sick, such pain and no hope,you should be allowed to go when you want...

We do this for our fluffs.

We really do need more fosters, the fosters are getting overhelmed..Many are fostering multiple dogs...
We're doing an art show in Miami in 6 weeks,and I have to figure out how to travel with 5 fluffs. Daisy my #6 , my puppymill foster is a runner,I'm afraid if she gets loose while we're trying to go back and froth between hotels,she could get out and she will run,she won't come to anyone if loose,I have a leash on her always outside. I'll have to board her while we're gone.
Fostering even one fluff would help rescues sooo much. Many in rescue are being boarded which is expensive plus they're not getting real family socialization. Please if you can foster one ,it really will help.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

My most significant reason for wishing to live in the US (outside of normal family contact, of course) would be to foster!!!! 
We were turned down last time we applied to rescue because we live over-seas, although we had rescued from this same organization before w/great success, a totally deaf young dog, who turned out to have aggressive cancer. He was a sweetheart!
I would, personally, not keep alive a pup who had no hope of getting well and I would not spend large sums of $$ in such a situation---just my take about not letting animals suffer unnecessarily. If there were hope I would break the bank regardless of age.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

IzzysBellasMom said:


> I have a co-worker that after a year since her 12 yo boston terrier passed, decided she was ready for another dog. Her mother and sister both have yorkies and her MIL that lives upstairs has a shih Tzu. She has a 4 yo mildly autistic child. She and her husband work full time. I showed her the pictures of the girl yorkie (Bella) and girl maltese (Bailee) that still have not found a home. She was very interested and called the Rescue group. She was turned down because she is not a stay at home mom and her child is under the age of 8.
> 
> I just want to say that is not fair!! If her child is around other small dogs and lives with other small dogs, that should not be an issue. Also we all work!! So unless you stay at home you shouldn't own an animal?? It just doesn't make any since to me. So this girl is now looking into a BYB to purchase a yorkie. I don't blame her!!! If I went to the rescue and they told me no, what other choice do you have???


Another choice might be to adopt a pet directly from a public animal shelter. Sometimes the public shelters are not so "picky" but are happy to take a chance on you. That's what I did, when I was either in school or working full-time or both, and I lived in an apartment. I doubted that a reputable breeder would let me have a puppy. So my choice was to adopt a stray directly from the public animal shelter. It worked out very nicely. The first one I kept for almost 17 years.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

gopotsgo said:


> As so many have eloquently said, the rescues that often require large sums of money often only need it as a one time thing. I have fostered some of these surgical pups myself and after the appropriate post surgical care they are normal, happy dogs with a normal life ahead of them. Euthanizing a dog like that is akin to putting down a human who broke their leg because it "cost too much". Yes, there are cases of elderly pups with the usual problems of the aged who become permanent fosters. In my experience they usually don't cost a lot more in money but they do require much in love and time and God bless the fosters who take these special cases on. I have known rescue to sadly euthanize a dog because it's future wasn't pleasant, such as in pain or no quality of life. It is never a decision made easily but it is made with the consideration of "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few".
> 
> In regards to human healthcare, being on the frontline does give me some insight and I, sadly, don't see any near future where dignity and quality of life are considered. Not when politicians are involved. I agree with you Sylvia wholeheartedly that someone who cannot talk, eat, walk or recognize anything should not continue to drain the system. That goes for the elderly as well as the young that I have seen, children stiff as boards, fed through tubes, draining the system via frequent hospitalizations because of infections. And dear Paula, the system tries to thwart God by the use of machines. This is not God's way.
> 
> In regards to AMAR, Edie has my full support and I think the changes are for the best. I am confident that AMAR will come out stronger and better organized. Thank you everyone for your continued support of rescue.


 
I don't agree with being put on life support for more then a couple days, I do think it prolongs their lives, that's why it's so important to have a living will. As far as not being able to walk, talk or eat goes that's where the living will would work the best.


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## IzzysBellasMom (Jan 16, 2013)

mss said:


> Another choice might be to adopt a pet directly from a public animal shelter. Sometimes the public shelters are not so "picky" but are happy to take a chance on you. That's what I did, when I was either in school or working full-time or both, and I lived in an apartment. I doubted that a reputable breeder would let me have a puppy. So my choice was to adopt a stray directly from the public animal shelter. It worked out very nicely. The first one I kept for almost 17 years.


 
She had already checked out local animal shelter, they are a high kill shelter and there were no yorkie or yorkie mixes there.


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## gopotsgo (May 21, 2009)

IzzysBellasMom said:


> We recently had a BYB volunteer to give up 26 dogs. They were mainly maltese, but some yorkies. They were pretty bad matted up. The local sheriff allowed her to keep another 50. The local rescue groups are still fighting him to make them give up the other dogs since they are not being cared for properly.
> 
> Knowing this and following them on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lake-Charles-Dog-Rescue-Examiner/239441789416472)
> 
> ...



That is easy, the local "pound". TONS of dogs of all sizes needing homes there. Look at any moderate city shelter's webpage. As a foster parent, I also would turn down a family with a child of that age, especially an autistic one. I am a firm believer that small dogs belong with adults and big dogs are best for small children. Being involved in rescue I have seen many owner surrenders because the children dropped the small dog leading to fractures which the family then couldn't afford to fix. Of course, there are families which are the exception and watch the interactions closely, but unless one knows that family well, that judgement cannot be made, and the line has to drawn somewhere. In regards to working, it would depend on the dog and if the family can provide daycare and/or a dog sitter. If so, it doesn't matter how many hours they work. The problem with a dog being left alone for long periods of time is they can become bored and destructive. This doesn't bode well for the stability of the rescue placement. Makes complete sense.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Sylie said:


> Oh Mags, that will never happen. Watching my very old relatives take 25 years to die, when medicare spent something like a million dollars to keep them alive...while we self employed could no way afford medical insurance. I loved my father and aunt and uncle who lived well into their nineties. But, medicare kept them alive when they could not feed themselves, when they could not clean themselves, when they could not relieve themselves. They slept in front of the television for years, while medicare spent a fortune to keep them alive in misery. But we, as a society will never draw the line. Young people cannot afford medical insurance or medical care, but old people who can't even chew their food have enormous funds poured into keeping them alive for one more year. I will not go that route. But, I seriously doubt that the government will ever be brave enough to say no to spending a million dollars on the last year of life. If it had direct affect on me, I would welcome a policy that said: if you can't feed yourself and go to the bathroom on your own...it is time to say goodbye. I loved my father, my aunt, my uncle, but I sincerely wish that they would have been left to die in dignity, rather than being preserved ....by medicare....into high anxiety and fear.
> 
> I believe in eternal life of spirit.


Sylvia we think alike. I always say to my family that the day you cannot feed yourself, clothe yourself, wash yourself and clean your butt yourself, it is time to go and for them to let go. A lot of times old people are kept a live because the hospitals and doctors are afraid of lawsuits by the families. Look at just the few cases we have read or heard about where the family did not want to let go. We can talk about this in a more profound way but in another thread.


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## ladodd (Jan 8, 2012)

It sounds like it's on a case by case decision, so I agree. While probably the hardest decision to make, the most humane. I have been turned down twice by rescues. Once because my yard is not fenced, the other because I would not be home all day. While I think there need to be rules, it shouldn't be a blanket rule. I hope that I can retire while still in good health and do fostering.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Matilda's mommy said:


> I don't agree with being put on life support for more then a couple days, I do think it prolongs their lives, that's why it's so important to have a living will. As far as not being able to walk, talk or eat goes that's where the living will would work the best.



You pretty much took the works right out of my mouth, Paula. 

It is so important to have a living will. Every time I have had to be hospitalized ... that is one of the first things I am asked by the nurse ... do I have a living will.

Our living wills are also on file in our lawyer's office.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

MalteseJane said:


> Sylvia we think alike. I always say to my family that the day you cannot feed yourself, clothe yourself, wash yourself and clean your butt yourself, it is time to go and for them to let go. A lot of times old people are kept a live because the hospitals and doctors are afraid of lawsuits by the families. Look at just the few cases we have read or heard about where the family did not want to let go. We can talk about this in a more profound way but in another thread.


"Hospitals and doctors" are not the ones who choose to keep people alive against a person's wishes. It's the individual person or families' choice- Not the fault of "hospital and doctors" I have personally never seen another doctor advocate against someone utilizing their advance directives or go against a family's wishes for a patient to be DNR. (Do not resuscitate). If anyone is to be blamed, it's those who dont take care of their elderly family members, refuse to let go, or the people who wish to have "everything done" even when quality of life is bad. Honestly, we should take responsibility for our own end of life decisions by making clear advance directives while we are well. 


As for rescues, I trust that most will allocate their funds and time according to the greater good in terms of curable illness, adoptability, and quality of life. I wish I was in a position to foster myself but just cannot at this time. Hopefully, in the future 


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

hoaloha said:


> *"Hospitals and doctors" are not the ones who choose to keep people alive against a person's wishes. It's the individual person or families' choice- Not the fault of "hospital and doctors" * I have personally never seen another doctor advocate against someone utilizing their advance directives or go against a family's wishes for a patient to be DNR. (Do not resuscitate). If anyone is to be blamed, it's those who dont take care of their elderly family members, refuse to let go, or the people who wish to have "everything done" even when quality of life is bad. Honestly, we should take responsibility for our own end of life decisions by making clear advance directives while we are well.
> 
> 
> As for rescues, I trust that most will allocate their funds and time according to the greater good in terms of curable illness, adoptability, and quality of life. I wish I was in a position to foster myself but just cannot at this time. Hopefully, in the future
> ...


Marisa - I agree, but even when you advocate for your loved one AND have a health care proxy and living will things can go astray. I had to take my mother to the hospital the night before she died since she was acting strangely - I thought she had a stroke but they ruled that out. She had been a heart patient there. I stayed with her until 3am, went home to get a little rest, came in again at 6am and found that there was something really wrong. She had been very restless when I left her, now she was totally out of it. The doctors and nurses rushed me out of her curtained area, wouldn't tell me anything and then about 5 minutes + minutes later came in to tell me that they had used a defibrillator and had intubated her and she had a heart attack. She had a DNR and if they asked me or looked they would have seen it, but they didn't in their rush to save her.The looked at her chart and saw the DNR letters It was heartwrenching for me as she didn't want any extraordinary measures to bring her back at that point. I had them extubate her and she died later that day. I pray no other family goes through what I did or more importantly my mother did. :smcry:


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

Snowbody said:


> Marisa - I agree, but even when you advocate for your loved one AND have a health care proxy and living will things can go astray. I had to take my mother to the hospital the night before she died since she was acting strangely - I thought she had a stroke but they ruled that out. She had been a heart patient there. I stayed with her until 3am, went home to get a little rest, came in again at 6am and found that there was something really wrong. She had been very restless when I left her, now she was totally out of it. The doctors and nurses rushed me out of her curtained area, wouldn't tell me anything and then about 5 minutes + minutes later came in to tell me that they had used a defibrillator and had intubated her and she had a heart attack. She had a DNR and if they asked me or looked they would have seen it, but they didn't in their rush to save her.The looked at her chart and saw the DNR letters It was heartwrenching for me as she didn't want any extraordinary measures to bring her back at that point. I had them extubate her and she died later that day. I pray no other family goes through what I did or more importantly my mother did. :smcry:


Sue, that is really upsetting :-( I'm so sorry you and your mother had to go through that. I think I'm still idealistic (or not jaded enough), but I agree that mistakes can be made even when things are prepared for "right." I think my general point is that we should all plan for the future just as you and your mother had. I won't make excuses for what happened to her- that must've really painful and anger-provoking to have had that happen :-( not sure why they didnt check? I'm glad you were strong enough to carry her wishes through at the end. 


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Snowbody said:


> Marisa - I agree, but even when you advocate for your loved one AND have a health care proxy and living will things can go astray. I had to take my mother to the hospital the night before she died since she was acting strangely - I thought she had a stroke but they ruled that out. She had been a heart patient there. I stayed with her until 3am, went home to get a little rest, came in again at 6am and found that there was something really wrong. She had been very restless when I left her, now she was totally out of it. The doctors and nurses rushed me out of her curtained area, wouldn't tell me anything and then about 5 minutes + minutes later came in to tell me that they had used a defibrillator and had intubated her and she had a heart attack. She had a DNR and if they asked me or looked they would have seen it, but they didn't in their rush to save her.The looked at her chart and saw the DNR letters It was heartwrenching for me as she didn't want any extraordinary measures to bring her back at that point. I had them extubate her and she died later that day. I pray no other family goes through what I did or more importantly my mother did. :smcry:


 
I'm so sorry Sue:hugging:


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

So sorry Sue you had to go through this. My husband and myself have already done all the papers [advance directive, power of attorneys...] in case something happens to us.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

Sue,

I am so sorry.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Would it be okay for me to start a thread where we can share our family members struggle...to leave the earth. This is something that hurts my heart, and something I would like to share, and especially hear other's input.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

((((((( Oh, Sue ... I am so sorry )))))))


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Thank you all. I'm sorry that I posted about my mom. We're so off topic now. Let's get back to the thread's core. :back2topic: 
I have to say that watching two aunts live to very old ages with alzheimer's for many years (one died at 98 the other 101) I kind of wished that humans had the choices that we do when our pets are really ill and have no quality of life. They were alive but they weren't living nor enjoying life. And they would say so It was so sad. So my feeling with dogs, if they are very old and ill I don't want them to suffer and in some cases it does feel fairer to save those who could be adopted and live long lives than those who are seriously ill. But still it's not a decision I would want to make looking into their eyes. Heart vs. pocketbook...wish there didn't have to be choices


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Janine, I wrote something last evening ... and for some reason it doesn't show up now. So, I will try again.

First of all, I think you are asking a great question.

My wish is that every fluff that is in a shelter would be rescued ... no matter what condition they are in ... even the terminally ill.

For terminally ill dogs ... if anything, I wish they could at least be taken into a loving rescue or foster home to be given a bath (to hopefully help them feel some comfort and warmth) and then be given the chance ... if even for a day ... to be held and feel the love of a human being ... before it is time for these precious and innocent angels, to take in their last breath. I also would wish, for them to take in their last breathes ... in a loving home environment, instead in some cold and horrible environment. (Snowball's Godmother and vet, Krisi Erwin, does this for her patients and family ... goes into the homes, so that the beloved pets can be with their families in a familiar and more peaceful surroundings) I wish vets would volunteer some time doing this for all the rescues and foster moms and dads. 

As for the extensive surgeries that might cost an arm and a leg ... I feel it depends on specific circumstances. I have seen miracles happen in regard to surgeries with rescues that Edie and others have helped rescue. 

I wrote in the other post that I wish I could help rescue and foster. Unfortunately, at this time, I cannot do so, due to some health issues. But, I haven't given up hope in being able to do that some day in the future. I don't give up easily! 

I also mentioned in my last post, that I wish we could, in future rescue raffles, focus more on just a few prize gifts ... and, donate more of the money that we spend on so many prizes ... instead to the many rescues who could use the money instead. I don't mean to offend anyone by sharing my thoughts on this. I already shared these thoughts with Lynn and Edie. My feeling this way does not mean to take away from the awesome job and hard that Lynn does every year with the rescue raffles. I am just trying to think of ways we can help rescues with more money ... that's all. 

Again, I would love to foster. In the meantime, both Lynn and Edie (and others) know I contribute donations to rescue. In addition, I would also love to help provide personalized outfits for the foster parents to gift to the fluff's and their new forever parents. I love Marti's outfits and I would like to work more with Marj in regard to bows. Just anything to feel as though I am helping in some way besides my donations.

I can never live up to the Earth Angels like Edie, Bron, Gigi, Lynn ... and, to all the other rescue workers and foster moms and dads. They are doing the hard work, for sure. 

Janine, thank you for starting this thread.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Janine, I wrote something last evening ... and for some reason it doesn't show up now. So, I will try again.
> 
> First of all, I think you are asking a great question.
> 
> ...


 
:goodpost::good post - perfect Marie you wrote what my heart feels, if only every fluff could just have one moment of pure love, a gentle touch, soft voice, and to feel no fear, safe at last in arms that will hold them till their last breath. Thank you Marie for being you, I love you


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

One of my constantly reoccurring thoughts is that I would like to start a malt hospice. . . but I would have to win the lottery to do this & I would probably have to live in the US. I have had the wonderful joy of accompanying 2 malts to their final rest---both of them were rescues. This does not take into consideration the many malts who have grown old & passed w/us. I would want to hire a vet who would come to my "hospice home" & PTS in a loving environment when the time was right. This is what my friend Lucy does in Greece (she actually did win the lottery, honestly).
With these 2 pups we were able to do infusions at home, w. the support of my Austrian vet in Greece---and when there was nothing more we could do, she administered their sleeping potion. 
It is one of my "goals" that Lynn recently asked about.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

plenty pets 20 said:


> Wanted to add that AMAR and myself personally have had to make the hard decision to let a sick dogs go. I totally believe in quality of life and letting go if its not possible. I want that for myself too, so why make anything suffer longer then they need to??


And I'm grateful to all the rescues that can do this.

I must say that my view on letting an animal go has changed since I've had my pet boutique and had dog training classes held here, and been witness to many different circumstances. I now think that humanely & lovingly letting certain animals go is truly the kindest and most loving thing a true animal lover can do. It's thinking in terms of what is best for the animal rather than not having to endure the pain and heartache of being there with them, stroking them, talking to them as they take their last breath. Looking at things from a behavioral point of view, is it fair to a dog or cat that has no idea why we humans are doing things to cause them a lot of pain and suffering to get them better when they will never have a true quality of life? Liver shunt dogs that even though they've had surgery will still always walk in circles and not be truly cognitive for example. And is it fair to a dog or cat that has been so poorly bred to have such an unsound temperament or endured the horrors of a puppy mill or abuse at the hand of their owners that they have global fear? Can you imagine having to live every single day like you are living in a horror movie, unsure when the monster is going to jump out at you? The stress that puts on the body is excruciating. I think there comes a time when you have to really ask yourself, is it being kind to the animal to keep them alive or is it easier on you, the human, not to have to make that decision. Sometimes we humans can be selfish when it comes to losing loved ones (human or furry) or even innocent animals that come into our lives.


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

You sound like my mom at times Janine!!!  I dont know what to think about this, I always get really depressed about death............................ Another thing is, what about my baby Binky ( babinka) She was told she was only going to live for a few more months because her heart...................... if the breeder listened to the vet and put her down, I wouldnt have ever have met her and have her for four years!!!!


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## gopotsgo (May 21, 2009)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Janine, I wrote something last evening ... and for some reason it doesn't show up now. So, I will try again.
> 
> First of all, I think you are asking a great question.
> 
> ...


Ah, the gift of heartfelt eloquence. Marie what a beautiful thought for a personal touch. I love it.


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## gopotsgo (May 21, 2009)

edelweiss said:


> One of my constantly reoccurring thoughts is that I would like to start a malt hospice. . . but I would have to win the lottery to do this & I would probably have to live in the US. I have had the wonderful joy of accompanying 2 malts to their final rest---both of them were rescues. This does not take into consideration the many malts who have grown old & passed w/us. I would want to hire a vet who would come to my "hospice home" & PTS in a loving environment when the time was right. This is what my friend Lucy does in Greece (she actually did win the lottery, honestly).
> With these 2 pups we were able to do infusions at home, w. the support of my Austrian vet in Greece---and when there was nothing more we could do, she administered their sleeping potion.
> It is one of my "goals" that Lynn recently asked about.



Sandi, that is such a cool idea! I love the way your brain works.


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## gopotsgo (May 21, 2009)

Snowbody said:


> Marisa - I agree, but even when you advocate for your loved one AND have a health care proxy and living will things can go astray. I had to take my mother to the hospital the night before she died since she was acting strangely - I thought she had a stroke but they ruled that out. She had been a heart patient there. I stayed with her until 3am, went home to get a little rest, came in again at 6am and found that there was something really wrong. She had been very restless when I left her, now she was totally out of it. The doctors and nurses rushed me out of her curtained area, wouldn't tell me anything and then about 5 minutes + minutes later came in to tell me that they had used a defibrillator and had intubated her and she had a heart attack. She had a DNR and if they asked me or looked they would have seen it, but they didn't in their rush to save her.The looked at her chart and saw the DNR letters It was heartwrenching for me as she didn't want any extraordinary measures to bring her back at that point. I had them extubate her and she died later that day. I pray no other family goes through what I did or more importantly my mother did. :smcry:


I'm sorry to go off topic again but I cannot help it. OMG, Susan! I'm SO sorry you and your mom had to go through that. You have reinforced my rule that I adopted years ago, the first thing I ask when I enter a patient's room in response to a code is, "is the patient full code?", followed by "are you sure?". And then I ask if there is family in the hospital. I will not proceed with machine support until I make certain that the patient is not DNR. I am a huge advocate of quality of life and dignity in passing. I am COMPLETELY pro choice about the aspects of life from conception to infirmity. Again Susan, I am so sorry. Big hug.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

edelweiss said:


> One of my constantly reoccurring thoughts is that I would like to start a malt hospice. . . but I would have to win the lottery to do this & I would probably have to live in the US. I have had the wonderful joy of accompanying 2 malts to their final rest---both of them were rescues. This does not take into consideration the many malts who have grown old & passed w/us. I would want to hire a vet who would come to my "hospice home" & PTS in a loving environment when the time was right. This is what my friend Lucy does in Greece (she actually did win the lottery, honestly).
> With these 2 pups we were able to do infusions at home, w. the support of my Austrian vet in Greece---and when there was nothing more we could do, she administered their sleeping potion.
> It is one of my "goals" that Lynn recently asked about.


I'm with you on that, we play every week. We have all we need in life really, we don't need a lot. We plan what we'd do, first thing we think of is fluffs, it really is... Help our local shelters and trusts for rescues...
Like I said,we're leaving our estate to our local shelter and to rescues. We made plans for our fluffs for rescue if something happens to us and extra donations for their care.

People kid me,they said straight away, "if you win it goes to animals right?"


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

maltese manica said:


> You sound like my mom at times Janine!!!  I dont know what to think about this, I always get really depressed about death............................ Another thing is, what about my baby Binky ( babinka) She was told she was only going to live for a few more months because her heart...................... if the breeder listened to the vet and put her down, I wouldnt have ever have met her and have her for four years!!!!


Your baby Babinka is with YOU, not with a rescue. YOU are the one spending the money. No one else. It is YOUR choice. You are not giving her up to a rescue group because she is ill. This is completely different. I have paid for 2 surgeries for Alex (3,000$ total). I have cared for him for 4 years for his heart problem. With all the x-rays and ultra-sounds and medicine it was not cheap. It would never have crossed my mind to give him up to rescue because he was sick. For 4 years we never went anywhere because of his illness and I didn't want anybody to babysit him, not even my daughter.
What we are talking here is about dogs who end up in rescue and it cost a lot of money to take care of their health. When money is plenty it's not a problem. But when money is in short supply and you lack enough foster homes what do you do ?


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> And I'm grateful to all the rescues that can do this.
> 
> I must say that my view on letting an animal go has changed since I've had my pet boutique and had dog training classes held here, and been witness to many different circumstances. I now think that humanely & lovingly letting certain animals go is truly the kindest and most loving thing a true animal lover can do. It's thinking in terms of what is best for the animal rather than not having to endure the pain and heartache of being there with them, stroking them, talking to them as they take their last breath. Looking at things from a behavioral point of view, is it fair to a dog or cat that has no idea why we humans are doing things to cause them a lot of pain and suffering to get them better when they will never have a true quality of life? Liver shunt dogs that even though they've had surgery will still always walk in circles and not be truly cognitive for example. And is it fair to a dog or cat that has been so poorly bred to have such an unsound temperament or endured the horrors of a puppy mill or abuse at the hand of their owners that they have global fear? Can you imagine having to live every single day like you are living in a horror movie, unsure when the monster is going to jump out at you? The stress that puts on the body is excruciating. I think there comes a time when you have to really ask yourself, is it being kind to the animal to keep them alive or is it easier on you, the human, not to have to make that decision. Sometimes we humans can be selfish when it comes to losing loved ones (human or furry) or even innocent animals that come into our lives.


:thumbsup:


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

MalteseJane said:


> ... What we are talking here is about dogs who end up in rescue and it cost a lot of money to take care of their health. When money is plenty it's not a problem. But when money is in short supply and you lack enough foster homes what do you do ?


A dog may happen to end up in a public shelter due to getting lost or abandoned. But private shelters and rescue organizations decide whether to take the dogs. I think the rescuers and rescue organizations do make hard decisions not to take some dogs into their program. But once they are in the program, I think the decision has to be made as to what is in the dog's best interest first, and finances second. Then you scramble for money if there isn't enough.

When I foster a dog, I want to be able to take as good care of it as I do for the dogs that are more clearly my own. Nobody forces a rescue to take a dog (although there may be a lot of moral pressure) and nobody forces somebody to foster it. 

A few years ago I fostered one dog for a 501c3 rescue "organization" which ended up being just one person. She pulled many, many animals from shelters and then ran out of money and volunteers. She eventually was convicted of multiple counts of criminal neglect of the animals in her custody. She yelled at me for getting what I considered to be reasonable vet care for the foster, at my own expense, while she was incommunicado. I hope never to be involved with an organization or situation like that again.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Puppymill survivors are so sad. Some never recover from their traumas. Daisy has been with us since May, though she's come a long way ,she still runs from us and won't come to us. She comes just so close and then you have to catch her. Sometimes she will come up to you can get on your lap if the other dogs are getting lovin' but she won't do it if she's alone with us. She is so lacking in confidence that she needs other dogs.I think that's why the first rescue had zero success with her...

She's so funny, she barks and cries when I leave her, then runs to hide when I come back. she snuggles close to my heart at night to sleep or at nap time,but when I put her in the other room she will run away.
I hope time will heal her fear,I wouldn't want to live in fear like that... Luckily her issues aren't costing rescue a lot of money, just my time and love...
It's one of those things, do we save puppymill dogs with psychological issues that might not ever be resolved or concentrate on shelter dogs that seem to be less traumatized...
It really is case by case...
I look at the precious little face, she looks like a tiny puppy and I can't give up. She has good moments of joy,she's starting to play a bit...followed by moments of fear and uncertainty. I think she really does think there's a boogieman waiting to get her...I look forward to the day her boogieman is gone.My fluffs have no boogieman other than the vacuum cleaner! How I wish her that peace...


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

michellerobison said:


> Puppymill survivors are so sad. Some never recover from their traumas. Daisy has been with us since May, though she's come a long way ,she still runs from us and won't come to us. She comes just so close and then you have to catch her. Sometimes she will come up to you can get on your lap if the other dogs are getting lovin' but she won't do it if she's alone with us. She is so lacking in confidence that she needs other dogs.I think that's why the first rescue had zero success with her...
> 
> She's so funny, she barks and cries when I leave her, then runs to hide when I come back. she snuggles close to my heart at night to sleep or at nap time,but when I put her in the other room she will run away.
> I hope time will heal her fear,I wouldn't want to live in fear like that... Luckily her issues aren't costing rescue a lot of money, just my time and love...
> ...


Michelle ... I think you have and are doing wonderful and loving work to help Daisy feel more secure. In Daisy's case, I think it will probably take baby steps.

It seemed to take forever for Snowball to feel more secure around a lot of people. I don't know what might have happened to him to have made him feel that way. For a long time, I thought it had to be something we were doing wrong. It took a lot of reassurance from top professionals to help me understand it wasn't something Felix and I were doing wrong. 

The thing is that with professional guidance ... and, following through with taking all the baby steps we were instructed to follow ... he is now a much more secure dog. It took a lot of patience, love, and devotion on the part of me and Felix ... but, it has been well worth it. However, I still will never give up getting to the root of why Snowball was so fearful around certain people ... especially men dressed in black clothing. Maybe it's neurological as some specialists think it could be ... but, I just don't know yet.

Michelle, I do realize and understand you are caring for so many fluff babies ... but, I still hope that Daisy will end up having you and your husband as her forever parents. I swear, you are Daisy's Earth Angel. And, yes, you are to many other fluff babies, too.

Thank you, for all the hard rescue work you do. You are an Earth Angel, for sure.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Marie, God bless you with your kind and loving heart. But I promise you...Snowball's fears and issues are nothing like that of a puppy mill rescue like Michelle's tiny Daisy. Your sweet and sensitive heart I fear would not be able to take seeing a dog like what I'm talking about and what most likely Daisy is like. There are times, even though I truly love what I do, I wish that I didn't have the store where I have to not only see this, but try to help when I don't think there is really any help there. And why I can't work with rescue right now. My heart can't take it.

Michelle, I don't know the right answer. Will she come out of it? Even with time, patience and the help of a veterinary behaviorist? Only a veterinary behaviorist would be qualified to answer that. There are less than 60 in the USA. We have one at Purdue but she is not one of my favorites. If you would like to consult a veterinary behaviorist, I can check to see if there is one in Ohio. But my question, if she would come out of it say in 5 years, would I personally like to live in that kind of fear for 5 years? What would that do to my heart? My body? My mind? I'll check later today on what the expected outcome would be for a dog that may have what is considered global fear for you. The only thing I know for sure is how much I hate puppy mills and why I'm so strong in my posting to those that want to be happy when someone here knowingly purchases from one with the excuse, 'we saved her'.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

michellerobison said:


> Puppymill survivors are so sad. Some never recover from their traumas. Daisy has been with us since May, though she's come a long way ,she still runs from us and won't come to us. She comes just so close and then you have to catch her. Sometimes she will come up to you can get on your lap if the other dogs are getting lovin' but she won't do it if she's alone with us. She is so lacking in confidence that she needs other dogs.I think that's why the first rescue had zero success with her...
> 
> She's so funny, she barks and cries when I leave her, then runs to hide when I come back. she snuggles close to my heart at night to sleep or at nap time,but when I put her in the other room she will run away.
> I hope time will heal her fear,I wouldn't want to live in fear like that... Luckily her issues aren't costing rescue a lot of money, just my time and love...
> ...


Michelle, there is hope! My friend adopted Molly, a mill mom, from a local rescue. When she first brought Molly home, the poor thing was terrified of everyone and everything. She gradully warmed up to Jim, the husband, and when Jim died went back to spending most of the day hiding in her crate.

Over the past 15 months, she is every so slowly gaining courage and starting to trust others. She is relatively trusting of Sandi now, and let's her hold her and touch her without much problem. Strangers are another story, although when we were on vacation this summer, Molly did let me sit next to her and pet her for a few minutes.

It's slow, but I've seen it happen! The other thing is that you've only had Daisy for a few months, and think about how much better her life has been in those few months. She may still be fearful, but she's clean, comfortable, and is starting to see what love looks like.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

michellerobison said:


> Puppymill survivors are so sad. Some never recover from their traumas. Daisy has been with us since May, though she's come a long way ,she still runs from us and won't come to us. She comes just so close and then you have to catch her. Sometimes she will come up to you can get on your lap if the other dogs are getting lovin' but she won't do it if she's alone with us. She is so lacking in confidence that she needs other dogs.I think that's why the first rescue had zero success with her...
> 
> She's so funny, she barks and cries when I leave her, then runs to hide when I come back. she snuggles close to my heart at night to sleep or at nap time,but when I put her in the other room she will run away.
> I hope time will heal her fear,I wouldn't want to live in fear like that... Luckily her issues aren't costing rescue a lot of money, just my time and love...
> ...


Michelle she will eventually get over it but it will take time, lots of time, it can take more than a couple of years. My daughter's chihuahua Rambo is fearful too. At the beginning only she and the kids could pick him up. He is fine with her husband now. He is still running away from me and my husband, but will come sit next to us and take food from us now. It's 3 years now that she has him. Getting another one, Rocky, has helped a lot with Rambo. They will probably never lose 100% of their fear but close.


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