# Horrible Mommy!



## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok, so Juliet has been down lately since all this with the house. I've noticed a big change in her and she had me worried!! Today we went to the vet....

On Juliet's last heat cycle we had a scare that she was pregnant, but it was false pregnancy. As soon as possible we had Romeo fixed so no more scares! Started seeing a new vet who I absolutely love and has a wonderful reputation around here. We were waiting for her 2nd heat and then she was going to be fixed and umbilical hernia removed. Today at the vet he informed me, Juliet is extremely spoiled, (which I knew), and that she is pregnant....:faint: Wait a minute there is no way!!!! Romeo was fixed months ago!!!  I knew there was no possible way for that to be the case, we didn't want puppies, that's why he was fixed! 
Well after the tears, and 1000 questions I spoke with my husband, and during the first couple days of the flooding Juliet was in heat, but had gone to his brothers house to stay for weekend. His brothers wife has a male yorkie also, who was supposedly fixed when she got him blah blah blah!! Wrong!! I should of known better, supposedly they didn't let them out of their sight either, well they had to of. Now I feel absolutely horrible, and lost. Personally I didn't want puppies, and have never breed a dog before. My mother use to breed tea-cup poodles, but I was young, I didn't get involved with it. The vet said she would be fine, no C-section needed, as long as no breech puppies, that she shouldn't have any problems. 
Anyway, this is what is going on, and I could really use some pointers! I know a lot of you are probably upset and think Im a horrible person, but this wasn't planned! She is suppose to be the only baby!:crying::crying:


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## Sushi's Mom (Mar 28, 2013)

First, you are NOT a horrible mommy. It was an accident that happened during trying times. Don't beat yourself up. It will be ok and I am sure you will be able to find great homes for the puppies. You are going to be a grandma! Wait, maybe you didn't want to heat that yet. :w00t::HistericalSmiley:


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

Sushi's Mom said:


> First, you are NOT a horrible mommy. It was an accident that happened during trying times. Don't beat yourself up. It will be ok and I am sure you will be able to find great homes for the puppies. You are going to be a grandma! Wait, maybe you didn't want to heat that yet. :w00t::HistericalSmiley:


Thanks Beth! Im trying not to, I just feel horrible. I know she will be well taken care of throughout the pregnancy, and the pups will be also. The puppies will stay in our family so I know that they are well taken care of and in good forever homes! 
Grandma :blink: It's scary but someone else told me that on facebook also lol 
I just received a email from the doctor with sonogram picture in it, he said that there is 3 possibly 4 puppies.


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## Sushi's Mom (Mar 28, 2013)

Well CONGRATULATIONS! That is awesome that the puppies already have homes. You can't ask for anything better than that. Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride Granny! 4 little ones will make for a busy busy house!


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

JulietsMommy said:


> Ok, so Juliet has been down lately since all this with the house. I've noticed a big change in her and she had me worried!! Today we went to the vet....
> 
> On Juliet's last heat cycle we had a scare that she was pregnant, but it was false pregnancy. As soon as possible we had Romeo fixed so no more scares! Started seeing a new vet who I absolutely love and has a wonderful reputation around here. We were waiting for her 2nd heat and then she was going to be fixed and umbilical hernia removed. Today at the vet he informed me, Juliet is extremely spoiled, (which I knew), and that she is pregnant....:faint: Wait a minute there is no way!!!! Romeo was fixed months ago!!!  I knew there was no possible way for that to be the case, we didn't want puppies, that's why he was fixed!
> Well after the tears, and 1000 questions I spoke with my husband, and during the first couple days of the flooding Juliet was in heat, but had gone to his brothers house to stay for weekend. His brothers wife has a male yorkie also, who was supposedly fixed when she got him blah blah blah!! Wrong!! I should of known better, supposedly they didn't let them out of their sight either, well they had to of. Now I feel absolutely horrible, and lost. Personally I didn't want puppies, and have never breed a dog before. My mother use to breed tea-cup poodles, but I was young, I didn't get involved with it. The vet said she would be fine, no C-section needed, as long as no breech puppies, that she shouldn't have any problems.
> Anyway, this is what is going on, and I could really use some pointers! I know a lot of you are probably upset and think Im a horrible person, but this wasn't planned! She is suppose to be the only baby!:crying::crying:


 Well, you're not a bad person, but this isn't exactly an accident. Why wait for the second heat cycle? And why take her around another male when you know she is intact??


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

The vet recommended waiting till then. As far as being around another male, we thought he was fixed, and we had a disaster and couldn't keep her here that weekend with all the people who were here and the water. 


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Let's see........

When Juliet had her first heat cycle Romeo was still intact and you thought putting panties on her would prevent a pregnancy. Then you came on here claiming that you were worried that Juliet might be pregnant. You lucked out big time on that one when it turned out it was only a false pregnancy.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-maltese-health-behavior/123575-please-pray.html

So instead of learning your lesson and getting her spayed asap, you allowed Juliet to have a second heat and be taken to the home of an intact Yorkie? And you come here and claim it wasn't planned? This was no accident, but a predictable result of your irresponsibility. :exploding:


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## iLoveMisty (Apr 27, 2013)

I'm sure it was an accident, so don't worry, everything will be ok, 
But now you learned your lesson!
Just take good care of your pregnant fluff


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

Pam and Marj already said it all. 
It was not an accident even tho your circumstances might have had a major influence on your judgment. 
How does one not know if the male is not neutered for sure? Come on, they cut off the balls! If you see balls... the dog is intact. There is no such thing as "keep an eye on a dog on heat".
Anyways, let's just not call it an accident. It was a bad decision. Now let's hope for her to have a safe pregnancy and really hope your experience works as an example for other members that might postpone a dog neutering or spaying.


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

Im not saying it was a good decision, Im taking responsibility for what happened. She is getting proper care, and it happened, whether you wanna say it was accident, or whatever I know it shouldn't of happened. There will be someone here who is experienced in small dog breeding when the time comes, so I know things will go the way they should or if I will need to take her in for C-section.


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## Kmarie (Apr 2, 2013)

Awww congrats!! Im sure youll do great!


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Oh my God let's start with the stone throwing and telling people how stupid, irresponsible and completely unethical they are! Let's cast some snide nasty remarks like the rest of us are so friggin perfect. That is it, I am sick of it, I am just completely done.

Julietsmommy I hope you find the assistance you are seeking. I hope the best for you and your situation.


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

Praying all goes well for momma and babies.


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## Five Furs (Apr 15, 2013)

JulietsMommy said:


> Ok, so Juliet has been down lately since all this with the house. I've noticed a big change in her and she had me worried!! Today we went to the vet....
> 
> On Juliet's last heat cycle we had a scare that she was pregnant, but it was false pregnancy. As soon as possible we had Romeo fixed so no more scares! Started seeing a new vet who I absolutely love and has a wonderful reputation around here. We were waiting for her 2nd heat and then she was going to be fixed and umbilical hernia removed. Today at the vet he informed me, Juliet is extremely spoiled, (which I knew), and that she is pregnant....:faint: Wait a minute there is no way!!!! Romeo was fixed months ago!!!  I knew there was no possible way for that to be the case, we didn't want puppies, that's why he was fixed!
> Well after the tears, and 1000 questions I spoke with my husband, and during the first couple days of the flooding Juliet was in heat, but had gone to his brothers house to stay for weekend. His brothers wife has a male yorkie also, who was supposedly fixed when she got him blah blah blah!! Wrong!! I should of known better, supposedly they didn't let them out of their sight either, well they had to of. Now I feel absolutely horrible, and lost. Personally I didn't want puppies, and have never breed a dog before. My mother use to breed tea-cup poodles, but I was young, I didn't get involved with it. The vet said she would be fine, no C-section needed, as long as no breech puppies, that she shouldn't have any problems.
> Anyway, this is what is going on, and I could really use some pointers! I know a lot of you are probably upset and think Im a horrible person, but this wasn't planned! She is suppose to be the only baby!:crying::crying:


Hello Juliet's Mommy I just read your thread and I am so sorry that you had a flood must have been very hard..I also would like to say that accidents do happen and I say God only gives us what we can handle and it is what it is..so with that being said CONGRADS to you on your coming litter..and I will pray that Mommy and babies are healthy and have a good delivery..so stop beating yourself up sweety..it happens and for what ever reason those 2 women wanted to get right in your face and be so rude is beyond me..I think it takes so much more energy and bad energy to be aweful then it is to be POSITIVE..I wish you all the best and GOOD LUCK..


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

I must say, I have been thru a lot of stress in the last 10 years. And my boys I had during that time suffered because of it. When life gives you more than you know what to do with, it pours out all around you! Juliet's Mom's house got flooded! And then they found massive mold! Things are overlooked when your life is in a horrible mess! So let's just lighten up and support our friends! I don't have the answers she needs!


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## CorkieYorkie (Apr 10, 2012)

I agree it was INCREDIBLY irresponsible... why on EARTH wasn't she spayed?? Or EITHER of those yorkies neutered??!! :blink: This is precisely why we advise everyone's dogs to be fixed!!! 

But I don't want to judge anyone (I have already left a Maltese rescue group on FB because I am so judgemental ;-) but I will wish you all the best of luck and hope you will take our advice... we just want to educate as much as possible to ensure things like this DON'T happen!!!


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## Madeleinesmommy (Nov 30, 2012)

I feel bad for the OP. She already feels bad enough and she plans to have the puppies stay in her family so at least they will be properly cared for. Let's not scare her off and hopefully some our breeders can give her advice for how to care for the pups when they are born and so her Juliet can have a safe and healthy pregnancy.

This is not an ideal situation but it happens there is no point in yelling at the OP but the title of the thread you can tell she feels bad.


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

Five Furs said:


> I read you rpost and I am still shaking my head..let me enlighten you I have 2 females with a dog with balls and I have NEVER had either girl get caught..so there is "SUCH a thing as keeping an eye on your dogs..know what positive is better then being rude..just saying


I am sorry that you are shaking your head over my opinion. Your own experience with an intact male and two females might have been successful but it doesn't make it the standard, i.e. OP just got her female pregnant. 
If you feel like I'm rude, it is again your right to think whatever you want about me, you don't know me nor either do I know you. I am not and have never showed any disrespect towards any single person in this forum. 
My opinion is, this is NOT an accident and I do hope this INCIDENT will serve to help other people getting on top of neutering/spaying their dogs.
As I've said, I'm sure being over so many unfortunate circumstances played an important role on what has happened and I wish her dog to have a safe pregnancy.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Let me know if you need any help with whelping preparations. A breech puppy doesn't mean a csection, it just means you don't have as much time to get that puppy out and it is more stressful but it's not an 'emergency' situation. When is she possibly due? Did the vet do an ultrasound or an xray? 

The hardest part I have with whelping is making myself wait for nature to take its course and not panicking but I'm getting better at that (thank goodness) 

Obviously your brother's wife needs some info on how to tell if a dog is neutered or not, since she thought her yorkie was not intact. Is she excited or making plans about the puppies? That would make me suspicious if she was!


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Let me know if you need any help with whelping preparations. A breech puppy doesn't mean a csection, it just means you don't have as much time to get that puppy out and it is more stressful but it's not an 'emergency' situation. When is she possibly due? Did the vet do an ultrasound or an xray?
> 
> The hardest part I have with whelping is making myself wait for nature to take its course and not panicking but I'm getting better at that (thank goodness)
> 
> Obviously your brother's wife needs some info on how to tell if a dog is neutered or not, since she thought her yorkie was not intact. Is she excited or making plans about the puppies? That would make me suspicious if she was!


Thank-you Stacy! I did not let them do x-ray only ultrasound. I remember people telling me not to do x-ray! She seemed a little shocked but happy when I called her. She knew I was upset about it. So don't know if she was somewhat hiding her feelings or not. The puppies will be kept in family so she isn't going to have any say in it. I know that's kind of rude but she obviously don't care.


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## Yogi's Mom (Jan 6, 2013)

*Well I Have sat Back and Watched this Long Enough. May I Just ask Why Was the Posts Of Five Furs Removed when it got to be a difference of opinion. There are always Different ways of seeing things.*

*But I Always thought Fairness was a part of this group. And Every one is entitled to a response. Jans Replys were no worse than what Marge wrote and who pulled Jans Post. That's Not fair because one does not like what she said.*

*Iam so Dissapointed in this . To the orginal poster god bless and good luck.*
*If I write something someone does not like can they remove my thoughts and opions? I don't understand that. Iam Sorry this is my thoughts on this. I wont debate it with anyone. Gog Bless you all And Please stop the fighting its beginning to take over for months now.*
*Nickee in Pa*


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

CorkieYorkie said:


> I agree it was INCREDIBLY irresponsible... why on EARTH wasn't she spayed?? Or EITHER of those yorkies neutered??!! :blink: This is precisely why we advise everyone's dogs to be fixed!!!
> 
> But I don't want to judge anyone (I have already left a Maltese rescue group on FB because I am so judgemental ;-) but I will wish you all the best of luck and hope you will take our advice... we just want to educate as much as possible to ensure things like this DON'T happen!!!


If you read thru the post, she was to be spayed after 2nd heat cycle, Romeo is neutered, and the other was supposedly neutered. 

This was not a post to start arguments, or rude comments! It was started cause I was asking about what to do from here. I do not need lectured. I know all about irresponsible breeders and people breeding for money! Which irritates me also. Ive been on these forums for awhile, and I keep quiet most the time. I don't like drama or negativity! If this is going to be an issue I will just leave. People should NOT judge people whom they don't know. 
Thank-you to those who have left neutral/positive comments.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

JulietsMommy said:


> Thank-you Stacy! I did not let them do x-ray only ultrasound. I remember people telling me not to do x-ray! She seemed a little shocked but happy when I called her. She knew I was upset about it. So don't know if she was somewhat hiding her feelings or not. The puppies will be kept in family so she isn't going to have any say in it. I know that's kind of rude but she obviously don't care.


I'm honestly glad the puppies will be completely under your care and not hers! To be blunt, if she truly didn't even know that her dog wasn't neutered, she is COMPLETELY clueless about caring for a dog. I have two males and even when you brush or bathe them, it's quite obvious that a testicle is there (even in the case of one testicle, it's obvious). Even if both testicles are retractile or undescended, she should know this info. anyway, back to the point, I don't think anyone is calling the OP a backyard breeder but it's just a very sad, unfortunate event that occurred due to a lack of timely spay. I am sorry you've had to deal with the flood. Also, I am sorry that life meets us with hard situations that make us reaarange our priorities, but I do hope that others who read this forum will make it even MORE of a priority to spay/neuter responsibly. 

Don't shy away from asking more questions! I hope all goes well and I hope we can all learn from this unfortunate event.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Yogi's Mom said:


> *Well I Have sat Back and Watched this Long Enough. May I Just ask Why Was the Posts Of Five Furs Removed when it got to be a difference of opinion. There are always Different ways of seeing things.*
> 
> *But I Always thought Fairness was a part of this group. And Every one is entitled to a response. Jans Replys were no worse than what Marge wrote and who pulled Jans Post. That's Not fair because one does not like what she said.*
> 
> ...


Nickee, I think the posts were removed because of the name calling. Not because of difference of opinion. Marj did not call anyone any bad names. That person did. It is against forum rules.


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Let me know if you need any help with whelping preparations. A breech puppy doesn't mean a csection, it just means you don't have as much time to get that puppy out and it is more stressful but it's not an 'emergency' situation. When is she possibly due? Did the vet do an ultrasound or an xray?
> 
> The hardest part I have with whelping is making myself wait for nature to take its course and not panicking but I'm getting better at that (thank goodness)
> 
> Obviously your brother's wife needs some info on how to tell if a dog is neutered or not, since she thought her yorkie was not intact. Is she excited or making plans about the puppies? That would make me suspicious if she was!


 
July 7th or around there is when they are thinking. She hasn't gained any weight yet really only 2 oz.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Yogi's Mom said:


> *Well I Have sat Back and Watched this Long Enough. May I Just ask Why Was the Posts Of Five Furs Removed when it got to be a difference of opinion. There are always Different ways of seeing things.*
> 
> *But I Always thought Fairness was a part of this group. And Every one is entitled to a response. Jans Replys were no worse than what Marge wrote and who pulled Jans Post. That's Not fair because one does not like what she said.*
> 
> ...





eiksaa said:


> Nickee, I think the posts were removed because of the name calling. Not because of difference of opinion. Marj did not call anyone any bad names. That person did. It is against forum rules.



That is correct - several posts were removed because of name calling. Please remember that SM does have rules calling for the respectful treatment of each member, regardless of whether we agree with their opinions.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

JulietsMommy said:


> July 7th or around there is when they are thinking. She hasn't gained any weight yet really only 2 oz.


When was she in heat? I have a litter due around then also and she is just starting to show. Why did the vet even check for pregnancy? That's not something they usually check for - guess he was being thorough!

No xray until closer to her due date, then it's ok to get an accurate count and to check her pelvis and make sure it's big enough to pass the puppies. How big is the dad? And how big is Juliet?


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

bellaratamaltese said:


> When was she in heat? I have a litter due around then also and she is just starting to show. Why did the vet even check for pregnancy? That's not something they usually check for - guess he was being thorough!
> 
> No xray until closer to her due date, then it's ok to get an accurate count and to check her pelvis and make sure it's big enough to pass the puppies. How big is the dad? And how big is Juliet?


She was in heat beginning of May. She is 8.46 lbs and hers is 10 lbs. I took her in cause of how she's been acting since we had flood. She's got real sad almost. Didn't want anything to do with anything. He checked that first thing cause of her change, he then asked me if he could do sonogram because he thought she was pregnant. So that's when he confirmed. 


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## iLoveMisty (Apr 27, 2013)

Peace and love everyone! 
The OP has learned a valuable lesson, 
as we all know, she will NOT Be selling the puppies, so there should be no problem. 

**OP , please keep us posted with the updates on your fluff and pictures would be nice too!! ^-^/**


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Cassie, I'm sorry for everything you've gone through lately. Please have Juliet's spay as soon as medically possible after she has the puppies - that is the only way to keep this from happening. Paws crossed that Juliet is OK through all of this.

And Stacy - thank you for offering your advice and assistance!


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

Please, let's try and be supportive of situations such as these and less critcal. It truly serves no purpose to tear someone down and only makes things worse and causes hard feelings. "Stuff happens" and in this case it did. So what, we all learn my our mistakes (hopefully) and go on with our lives. From mistakes, valuable lessons can be learned and I am sure that the op has learned hers. So lets stop all of this negativity and help her out as much as we can. I sure hope that she does not leave this Forum and gets the encouragement that she needs right now. For the most part, those here are very loving, kind, and supportive as well as very compassionate too.


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

Life's messy!! I'm glad you'll get great advice from Stacy.
My parents are big spay and neuter folks and so am I, BUT years ago as a poor college student - I got a cat and there never seemed to be enough money to spay said cat.. then a stray cat came to stay.. both female. Then I cleaned the vents in my house - who knew (I now, know) that the cat could go through the vent and get outside!! I knew I was in for it... so needless to say within 2 weeks of each other they had kittens..I felt like I was a horrible person - and I took everyone of those female kittens and cats to the spay and neuter clinic in OKC and paid for them to be spayed before I found homes for them - it made finding homes for them easier and I felt better! but ugh, lesson learned the hard way. (I think there was only 1 boy and my friend took him and neutered him). So I paid for 7 cats to be fixed and get their shots - but it was the only way I was going to forgive myself!!


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## nwyant1946 (Jan 2, 2013)

*Stuff happens!! She's already said the puppies will being staying within her family, so she isn't selling them for profit. This was something that just happened. Juliet will be spayed ASAP and it won't happen again. So back off!!!! LOL....*

*Lets be supportive of a forum member...she already feels bad enough...she doesn't need to be beaten up even more. *


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## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

Congratulations!! Don't read bad posts,usually those people hide the truth about their own experience. Everybody make mistakes, human is not perfect thing created by God. I spoke with many breeders of different breeds (show breeders) and all of them had at least once same problem you had. You already know where your grandkids will live and this should make your life much easier  Now enjoy your girly time with your princess  puppies will be so cute, you'll call them morkie . When we came to USA I was shocked how people created breed names as in Russia only pure breed has name  Here I learned that so many breeds mixed with maltese , i am not telling it is good but honestly the unique and cute faces of those pups I saw really melt my heart. I think they are really perfect as a pets . I am not agressive person about mix any more, when before(in Russia) I would fight  My advice to you as a good mommy- *LISTEN TO YOUR HEART* , not to breeders who is jealous and money hungry , who doesn't want competition. Your soul and HEART will tell you what is better for your babies and your family. BIG HUG:tender:


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

Tashulia25 said:


> Congratulations!! Don't read bad posts,usually those people hide the truth about their own experience. Everybody make mistakes, human is not perfect thing created by God. I spoke with many breeders of different breeds (show breeders) and all of them had at least once same problem you had. You already know where your grandkids will live and this should make your life much easier  Now enjoy your girly time with your princess  puppies will be so cute, you'll call them morkie . When we came to USA I was shocked how people created breed names as in Russia only pure breed has name  Here I learned that so many breeds mixed with maltese , i am not telling it is good but honestly the unique and cute faces of those pups I saw really melt my heart. I think they are really perfect as a pets . I am not agressive person about mix any more, when before(in Russia) I would fight  My advice to you as a good mommy- *LISTEN TO YOUR HEART* , not to breeders who is jealous and money hungry , who doesn't want competition. Your soul and HEART will tell you what is better for your babies and your family. BIG HUG:tender:


You have got to be kidding. Do you really mean everything you said? 
First of all, if she doesn't read how come up she will know if its a good or bad post? Okay I'm being sarcastic, I just can't resist. Now, on a serious side, you mention to do not listen to greedy breeders here? A Breed call morkie?
Yeah, I see. You're being funny - there is no other explanation for all your words. 


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Tashulia25 said:


> Congratulations!! Don't read bad posts,usually those people hide the truth about their own experience. Everybody make mistakes, human is not perfect thing created by God. I spoke with many breeders of different breeds (show breeders) and all of them had at least once same problem you had. You already know where your grandkids will live and this should make your life much easier  Now enjoy your girly time with your princess  puppies will be so cute, you'll call them morkie . When we came to USA I was shocked how people created breed names as in Russia only pure breed has name  Here I learned that so many breeds mixed with maltese , i am not telling it is good but honestly the unique and cute faces of those pups I saw really melt my heart. I think they are really perfect as a pets . I am not agressive person about mix any more, when before(in Russia) I would fight  My advice to you as a good mommy- *LISTEN TO YOUR HEART* , not to breeders who is jealous and money hungry , who doesn't want competition. Your soul and HEART will tell you what is better for your babies and your family. BIG HUG:tender:


For the record, my posts had nothing to do with "hiding the truth about my own experiences, being jealous or money hungry."

My posts were made out of concern for all the Maltese and mixed Maltese who are dumped in shelters to be euthanized every year. My posts were also made for all the Maltese who battle and die from genetic illnesses caused by careless and irresponsible breeding.


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## Paisley_The_Maltese (Jun 8, 2013)

You're not a horrible mommy! It was an accident. How old is Cassie? Cassie will be a great mommy!


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## Leila'sMommy (Oct 20, 2012)

I'm so sorry about the flood and then the unexpected pregnancy! I hope you will post pictures of them after they're born and as they grow while you have them. I also pray for a safe delivery of each puppy. That's great you already have homes for them and that they will stay in the family! 

Yes, there is a "designer" breed called Morkie. I've never seen one, just pictures online. They're actually pretty cute!! http://www.bestpetpalmbeach.com/morkies.html


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Tashulia25 said:


> Congratulations!! Don't read bad posts,usually those people hide the truth about their own experience. Everybody make mistakes, human is not perfect thing created by God. I spoke with many breeders of different breeds (show breeders) and all of them had at least once same problem you had. You already know where your grandkids will live and this should make your life much easier  Now enjoy your girly time with your princess  puppies will be so cute, you'll call them morkie . When we came to USA I was shocked how people created breed names as in Russia only pure breed has name  Here I learned that so many breeds mixed with maltese , i am not telling it is good but honestly the unique and cute faces of those pups I saw really melt my heart. I think they are really perfect as a pets . I am not agressive person about mix any more, when before(in Russia) I would fight  My advice to you as a good mommy- *LISTEN TO YOUR HEART* , not to breeders who is jealous and money hungry , who doesn't want competition. Your soul and HEART will tell you what is better for your babies and your family. BIG HUG:tender:


I hope the OP does read and take to heart all the posts. She should see not only those who wish to support and help her, but also those who may offer their critique. We do learn from positive reinforcement, but when we make mistakes those need to be learned from as well. 

Beyond disagreeing about the need to consider both sides of this for the OP, I have to address a couple of the outrageous statements you have made here. 

You say all the breeders you have spoken to have had accidents such as this OP has had? 

That is certainly not my experience. I know accidents happen, especially when intact dogs are around, but most breeders are able to prevent accidents by exercising appropriate care of their dogs. Those breeders I know who have more than one breed of dog in their homes do not take chances. They do not accidentally produce mutts. 

You say a breeder who doesn't believe in mixing breeds is just jealous and money hungry???? 

I never thought I would become a breeder. My opinions about breeders were formed out of my experiences as a pet owner and as a rescue foster volunteer. I became a breeder when I realized that there were too many poorly bred dogs filling the demand and not enough available from breeders who truly care about the dogs and the breed. 

My opinions about mixing breeds are based on ETHICS not jealousy and not greed. 

I do not care about competition. That one is totally laughable. I constantly have to refer people to others because I very rarely have puppies. I would LOVE more competition from breeders who care about showing and breeding for the right reasons. Because again, there are not many out there serving that role. 

Here are a few of the things that make up my personal rationale for ethical breeding: 

1. Breeding dogs is a huge responsibility. It is truly a life and death equation. It is not done just for the fun of it. Nor is it done out of a desire to make money using these precious souls. 

2. Health implications are real. An ethical breeder is committed not only to the welfare of his or her dogs, but also the welfare of future generations and the breed itself. 

3. The issue of homeless/unwanted pets is real. Mixing breeds is careless or greedy. It does not serve to improve traits that have created either breed. And it contributes to the problem of poorly bred mutts that fill our shelters.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

To think legit breeders on this forum would misguide a pet owner because they are 'jealous' and 'money hungry' is laughable. *Tashulia25*, pointing fingers and accusing people of something completely inaccurate just reflects badly on you.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> I hope the OP does read and take to heart all the posts. She should see not only those who wish to support and help her, but also those who may offer their critique. We do learn from positive reinforcement, but when we make mistakes those need to be learned from as well.
> 
> Beyond disagreeing about the need to consider both sides of this for the OP, I have to address a couple of the outrageous statements you have made here.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

Carina, very well said. The number of mixed breed "accidents" and "designer dogs" who are looking for homes or who fall into the hands of inexperienced dog owners who don't know how to raise a toy breed dog is very sad. We have had many threads on SM from inexperienced owners who suddenly find themselves with a dog with behavioral issues and they have no clue what to do. Responsible, ethical breeders are concerned about the home environment for their fluffs and screen the potential pet parents, helping to educate along the way.

I do hope that the OP and others who read this thread realize that:
1. Responsible breeding involves a lot of time, effort and investment and is only done to strengthen the quality of the particular breed.
2. Even though the pet stores and BYBs would have you believe otherwise, that cute "designer" dog or "breed" that is a mix of two (e.g. Morkie) is really a mutt. They may be cute, but they are not the result of responsible, ethical breeding.
3. The real greedy ones are those who do not ethically breed for show but who are breeding to sell their cute babies to others - they are the ones who really only care about the money.


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## ToniLWilson (Sep 11, 2012)

shellbeme said:


> Oh my God let's start with the stone throwing and telling people how stupid, irresponsible and completely unethical they are! Let's cast some snide nasty remarks like the rest of us are so friggin perfect. That is it, I am sick of it, I am just completely done.
> 
> Julietsmommy I hope you find the assistance you are seeking. I hope the best for you and your situation.


:aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::aktion033: Great post!


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## ToniLWilson (Sep 11, 2012)

Five Furs said:


> Hello Juliet's Mommy I just read your thread and I am so sorry that you had a flood must have been very hard..I also would like to say that accidents do happen and I say God only gives us what we can handle and it is what it is..so with that being said CONGRADS to you on your coming litter..and I will pray that Mommy and babies are healthy and have a good delivery..so stop beating yourself up sweety..it happens and for what ever reason those 2 women wanted to get right in your face and be so rude is beyond me..I think it takes so much more energy and bad energy to be aweful then it is to be POSITIVE..I wish you all the best and GOOD LUCK..


:goodpost:


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## ToniLWilson (Sep 11, 2012)

Yogi's Mom said:


> *Well I Have sat Back and Watched this Long Enough. May I Just ask Why Was the Posts Of Five Furs Removed when it got to be a difference of opinion. There are always Different ways of seeing things.*
> 
> *But I Always thought Fairness was a part of this group. And Every one is entitled to a response. Jans Replys were no worse than what Marge wrote and who pulled Jans Post. That's Not fair because one does not like what she said.*
> 
> ...


:aktion033:


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## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

CloudClan said:


> I hope the OP does read and take to heart all the posts. She should see not only those who wish to support and help her, but also those who may offer their critique. We do learn from positive reinforcement, but when we make mistakes those need to be learned from as well.
> 
> Beyond disagreeing about the need to consider both sides of this for the OP, I have to address a couple of the outrageous statements you have made here.
> 
> ...


*I will say word "you" but it is for everyone on the planet. I don't like to fight and don't want no one to think that I am fighting, I am telling my point of view.*
How many know the truth about Maltese breed? Here is the history
"*Around the 17th and 18th centuries, some breeders decided to "improve" the breed, by making it smaller still. Linnaeus wrote in 1792 that these dogs were about the size of a squirrel. The breed nearly disappeared and was crossbred with other small dogs such as Poodles and miniature Spaniels"*
1. I ment not to mix , I ment about unexpected pregnancy. And yes it was an accident as she did everything to prevent it. She neutered her boy. I don't give any trust to her sister in law as she should see when dogs stock together and at lest she should tell it to OP . I had already 4 offers from yorkie, cocker spaniel, poodle, and chihuahua to stud with my handsome boy and I said *NO* even I like how mix look. All I know it is hard to keep appart same breed dogs in the beginning of breeding program. I am really happy that you never had that accident.
2. Same with me , I am still doing that even I have 2 dogs myself. 2 weeks ago the 3 yo pomeranian left to his family. I was his foster mom. I just don't know how you start breeding when you saw so many poor little things. Too many pure breeds are still in rescues and shelters, even their owners paid fortune. Do you have contract with people who buy your dogs? Do you accept dogs back if they decided after several years to give up? Do you request the puppy to be spayed or nurtured if it is pet quality(not only limited registration)?
3 Think about God's law when you are thinking about AMA ethics, ask yourself why I can euthanize non standart puppy when people do not euthanize down syndrom babies. Why I should nurtured/spay my dog without medical reason if I dont do that to my husband, myself and not having sex after you don't want any more kids? In breeding words, why you think you have perfect personality, standart requirements, so you can have kids? Doesn't these ethics rules sounds like Hitler came back?


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

*Update on Juliet*
She is doing great! She has a belly that's for sure! I took her in last week for x-ray, there were 3 tiny babies. With her being this close to being due, she is never left alone, for any amount of time! Daddy built her a nice whelping box, it's prepared! Along with heating lamp and doggy heating pad! She has been taking multi-vitamins, eating like a horse, and gets a egg every other day! 
As for puppies, they are tiny! I think Juliet is going to be a really good mommy! As stated before, puppies are staying in family! If there is more than 3, I know someone who is perfect to have one of Juliets babies! All babies will be utd on shots, and we will be having them fixed! WE ARE NOT in this for the money, only thing that family will have to pay is for the puppy being fixed. Have a good day!

Also Thank-you for the positive comments, and stating facts in nice ways!


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Dominic (Nov 4, 2012)

JulietsMommy said:


> *Update on Juliet*
> She is doing great! She has a belly that's for sure! I took her in last week for x-ray, there were 3 tiny babies. With her being this close to being due, she is never left alone, for any amount of time! Daddy built her a nice whelping box, it's prepared! Along with heating lamp and doggy heating pad! She has been taking multi-vitamins, eating like a horse, and gets a egg every other day!
> As for puppies, they are tiny! I think Juliet is going to be a really good mommy! As stated before, puppies are staying in family! If there is more than 3, I know someone who is perfect to have one of Juliets babies! All babies will be utd on shots, and we will be having them fixed! WE ARE NOT in this for the money, only thing that family will have to pay is for the puppy being fixed. Have a good day!
> 
> Also Thank-you for the positive comments, and stating facts in nice ways!


Oh so nice you came back to tell us how is she! And I love the picture. I know this has been a difficult thread but it will help to educate new members and visitors. You know that at the end of the day we all hope Juliet to be safe and sound. Can't wait to see the babies. I hope you start a new thread with update pictures  


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

As for the extremely uneducated statements being made about reputable breeders being greedy and jealous, I will leave that for the reputable breeders on this forum to address. Carina has done so very well and I hope others will contribute. This can be a wonderful learning thread for newbies and lurkers. If this were truly the case, Stacy would not have offered assistance to help to ensure the safety of mom and puppies. We ALL care about the welfare, safety and happiness of all fluffs on this forum.

I have to say that this can NOT be called an accident. It may be unplanned. Even not wanted. But leaving a female intact until after her 2nd heat, especially after a previous scare, cannot be considered an accident. This is the result of some poor decisions. And I'm not necessarily laying blame at the OP if her vet advised her to wait until after her second heat. So I have to ask why your vet is wanting to wait until after her 2nd heat? That right there has me completely baffled. There is some pretty compelling evidence on both sides of spaying/neutering earlier or later. But even the vets feeling it is healthier for the dogs to wait until they are a little older don't want them to wait too much after they are a year old. And certainly not a 2nd heat cycle. With every heat cycle, you increase the odds of several types of cancer. And I know of no vet who is already aware of a possible pregnancy that would not advise spaying as soon as possible.

Won't even go into how someone can not know a male dog is intact. :huh:


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## mrsmediauph (Feb 19, 2013)

*So cute!*

She is so stinkin cute! Love that shot of her belly. :wub: When are the puppies due? They certainly are going to be cuties. So happy to hear that they are all going to people you know. Obviously you are making the best of a "not so good" situation. Congrats to you and Juliet and PLEASE keep us updated. :chili: Wishing you the best and pray Juliet has an easy, fast, safe delivery.

As for the rude comments - ignore them and move on. Wonder if the people making the snarky comments do the same thing when their family members or friends have "unplanned" pregnancies? :innocent:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Hmmmm.....as coincidence would have it, Dr. Patricia McConnell's blog for today is on this exact subject. 

So I have to retract what I said earlier about questioning the rationale for waiting until the 2nd heat cycle before the spay. According to Dr. Chris Zink, "a highly respected DVM who specializes in canine athletics" according to Dr. McConnell's blog, is to let them cycle at least twice before spaying a female.


Chris Zink, a highly respected DVM who specializes in canine athletes - See more at: The Plot Thickens: Spay Neuter Effects & the Health of Our Dogs TheOtherEndoftheLeash


http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/th...s-the-health-of-our-dogs#sthash.Fa1zm0tQ.dpuf


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Hmmmm.....as coincidence would have it, Dr. Patricia McConnell's blog for today is on this exact subject.
> 
> So I have to retract what I said earlier about questioning the rationale for waiting until the 2nd heat cycle before the spay. According to Dr. Chris Zink, "a highly respected DVM who specializes in canine athletics" according to Dr. McConnell's blog, is to let them cycle at least twice before spaying a female.
> 
> ...


Sorry Crystal I did not see your post here before starting a new thread about spay/neuter. Posted the same link.


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## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

JulietsMommy said:


> *Update on Juliet*
> She is doing great! She has a belly that's for sure! I took her in last week for x-ray, there were 3 tiny babies. With her being this close to being due, she is never left alone, for any amount of time! Daddy built her a nice whelping box, it's prepared! Along with heating lamp and doggy heating pad! She has been taking multi-vitamins, eating like a horse, and gets a egg every other day!
> As for puppies, they are tiny! I think Juliet is going to be a really good mommy! As stated before, puppies are staying in family! If there is more than 3, I know someone who is perfect to have one of Juliets babies! All babies will be utd on shots, and we will be having them fixed! WE ARE NOT in this for the money, only thing that family will have to pay is for the puppy being fixed. Have a good day!
> 
> Also Thank-you for the positive comments, and stating facts in nice ways!


:chili: That is so great news, couldn't wait for updates. I think Stacy is one of the helpful people here and you wont feel punished or guilty while talking to her if you need any help  I personally talk only with her privately as she doesn't judge people she is helping people to understand  Thank you Stacy for being very nice in and outside.:wub:


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## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

mrsmediauph said:


> As for the rude comments - ignore them and move on. Wonder if the people making the snarky comments do the same thing when their family members or friends have "unplanned" pregnancies? :innocent:


:aktion033::aktion033::aktion033::ThankYou:


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


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## LuvMyBoys (Jan 2, 2012)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


Took the words right out of my mouth Pam. Sad day indeed.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.



My thoughts exactly.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

LuvMyBoys said:


> Took the words right out of my mouth Pam. Sad day indeed.





mysugarbears said:


> My thoughts exactly.


It's nice to know there are still right thinking people here. It's just so unacceptable to me that there are BYBer's here on SM as well as a group that endorses the behavior. This is not the central value of this forum.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


Well said, Pam. What's worse is that those responsible for the change in attitude on SM are not even paying members who help keep this forum going.


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## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


I am not a breeder but I don't like that people here never think that they are rude  Just remember , we are not perfect , we all make mistakes. So sad that some ppl wont never ask questions and give unswears at least to themselves, why I am like that?why I put rules on nature? why I do things to others when I wont do it to myself? Talk to people and respect others as you'd like them to be with you. Respect the rules the Nature builded , not human. 
I feel do bad for OP that some ppl decided to blame instead of help. I respect those, who were very nice to her even when they told her that it was not good. 
PS. I was in pet store yesterday, if you want to fight go there and that is what we all should blame!!! I saw puppy, OMG she is so cute but price....$2,500 as she is designed dog, I was laughing as in Russia all mix we call street dogs and ppl not buying them they are getting them for free. When I asked about Maltese, hahaha, wont believe the first pup they showed me was malti-poo and after they realized that i know how maltese must look the seller told me that his boss(store owner) told them to sell it as a pure breed Maltese. Then I saw Maltese and it was sad for me as they are Korean maltese


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## ckanen2n (Jan 2, 2012)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


So glad I missed this post until now. Unbelievable, and probably why I haven't come on here as much lately. How can we teach those who do not want to learn? It's bad enough that most show breeders avoid SM. Some already think this is for BYB! Seriously, do we have to make people take a test and an oath? 

On the other hand, I would be remiss if I did not say blessings to Juliet and prayers for healthy babies. 
Still can't get over not knowing if your dog is neutered...


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


Well said, Pam!


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Tashulia25 said:


> *I will say word "you" but it is for everyone on the planet. I don't like to fight and don't want no one to think that I am fighting, I am telling my point of view.*
> How many know the truth about Maltese breed? Here is the history
> "*Around the 17th and 18th centuries, some breeders decided to "improve" the breed, by making it smaller still. Linnaeus wrote in 1792 that these dogs were about the size of a squirrel. The breed nearly disappeared and was crossbred with other small dogs such as Poodles and miniature Spaniels"*
> 1. I ment not to mix , I ment about unexpected pregnancy. And yes it was an accident as she did everything to prevent it. She neutered her boy. I don't give any trust to her sister in law as she should see when dogs stock together and at lest she should tell it to OP . I had already 4 offers from yorkie, cocker spaniel, poodle, and chihuahua to stud with my handsome boy and I said *NO* even I like how mix look. All I know it is hard to keep appart same breed dogs in the beginning of breeding program. I am really happy that you never had that accident.
> ...


I am having trouble understanding a good portion of your post. So I can't address some of it. But there are a couple of statements here that I think I do understand that I can address. I started breeding after I took in lots of dogs who came from BYB and PuppyMills as fosters. The ethical breeders I met at the time all had a contract saying that their dogs had to be returned to them. We did someone contact our rescue group saying they wanted to turn in a dog that came from an ethical breeder, as soon as she found out she enforced the contract and got her dog back. For sure, the people who have bought my puppies MUST return the dogs to me if they ever can not keep their dog at ANY point over the course of their life. And yes absolutely, the ones who are not shown are sold on limited registration with spay and neuter required. 

I did not bring up AMA ethics. I brought up my own ethics. What are you talking bout euthanize a non-standard puppy???? That may have been done by some in the past, but it is certainly not the practice of the ethical breeders we know today. 

Perhaps this is one of those things I do not understand, but you asked about why you should neuter your dog when you do not do that to your husband if there is no medical reason. A lot of adult humans do choose to undergo surgery to prevent pregnancy rather than always having to use hormone pills or contraceptive devices. Responsible humans do take plenty of precautions to avoid unwanted pregnancy. 

You say, that people just want a pet, not a show dog ... I continue to say that if you want a pet, the best source is a show breeder or a rescue. Poorly bred or mixed small dogs are available in rescue. If you care about your Maltese having the the look and temperament of the breed though then you go to a show breeder. They are the ones who breed for the traits of the breed. 

I am not sure I get your Hitler statement, but I guess you are trying to draw a relationship between purebred dogs and eugenics. This is an argument used by PETA folks who believe that we should not have purebred dogs at all. Since this forum is based on a love of a particular breed, the argument seems strange in this context.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


I hate that SM has become a place where being a BYB is seen as acceptable by people 
This has happened a lot in the past year or so here


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## Tashulia25 (May 19, 2013)

CloudClan said:


> I am having trouble understanding a good portion of your post. So I can't address some of it. But there are a couple of statements here that I think I do understand that I can address. I started breeding after I took in lots of dogs who came from BYB and PuppyMills as fosters. The ethical breeders I met at the time all had a contract saying that their dogs had to be returned to them. We did someone contact our rescue group saying they wanted to turn in a dog that came from an ethical breeder, as soon as she found out she enforced the contract and got her dog back. For sure, the people who *have bought my puppies MUST return the dogs to me if they ever can not keep their dog at ANY point over the course of their life. And yes absolutely, the ones who are not shown are sold on limited registration with spay and neuter required. *
> Thank you so much for that, this is very important to know and for me it tells how responsible you are. Thank you again
> I did not bring up AMA ethics. I brought up my own ethics. What are you talking bout euthanize a non-standard puppy???? That may have been done by some in the past, but it is certainly not the practice of the ethical breeders we know today.
> 
> ...


 :blink: I have no idea about PETA, and I didn't say nothing bad about purebred, I pointed that Hitler was killing people whom he thought have not the right look(even he was ugly in face), not only decease , when we are (human) sterilize (nurture/spay) dogs even they are show quality but not going to the show, it means we are killing them because they wont continue their bloodline.


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Tashulia25 said:


> :blink: I have no idea about PETA, and I didn't say nothing bad about purebred, I pointed that Hitler was killing people whom he thought have not the right look(even he was ugly in face), not only decease , *when we are (human) sterilize (nurture/spay) dogs even they are show quality but not going to the show, it means we are killing them because they wont continue their bloodline.*




:huh: Call me confused!


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Tashulia25 said:


> I am not a breeder but I don't like that people here never think that they are rude  Just remember , we are not perfect , we all make mistakes. So sad that some ppl wont never ask questions and give unswears at least to themselves, why I am like that?why I put rules on nature? why I do things to others when I wont do it to myself? Talk to people and respect others as you'd like them to be with you. Respect the rules the Nature builded , not human.
> I feel do bad for OP that some ppl decided to blame instead of help. I respect those, who were very nice to her even when they told her that it was not good.
> PS. I was in pet store yesterday, if you want to fight go there and that is what we all should blame!!! I saw puppy, OMG she is so cute but price....$2,500 as she is designed dog, I was laughing as in Russia all mix we call street dogs and ppl not buying them they are getting them for free. When I asked about Maltese, hahaha, wont believe the first pup they showed me was malti-poo and after they realized that i know how maltese must look the seller told me that his boss(store owner) told them to sell it as a pure breed Maltese. Then I saw Maltese and it was sad for me as they are Korean maltese


Honestly most of this is just gibberish and not understandable. But, I think you equate someone having a differing opinion than yours as "rude." I'm am not a rude person, but I do have strong opinions about breeding dogs that have been formed through personal experience and research. I do not believe that this OP had an accidental breeding. But what's done is done and I hope for the best for the mom and her pups. But be very clear, I do not condone what happened here, and it was not an accident anymore than a 16 year old gets pregnant "by accident." It's not an accident, it careless. It's ignoring the obvious.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Tashulia25 said:


> :blink: I have no idea about PETA, and I didn't say nothing bad about purebred, I pointed that Hitler was killing people whom he thought have not the right look(even he was ugly in face), not only decease , when we are (human) sterilize (nurture/spay) dogs even they are show quality but not going to the show, it means we are killing them because they wont continue their bloodline.



Breeding isn't all about the look/pretty dogs. They need to be sound and healthy. No reputable breeder would breed a dog if it was the prettiest dog ever if it wasn't healthy and could pass that down. 

Please do not compare Hitler murdering millions of people to reputable breeders getting pet quality dogs spayed and neutered. I'm actually shocked you can think that is the same thing. That is actually quite offensive.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


I agree wholeheartedly. Hopefully rational people will read and learn.


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## Gabbee (Feb 12, 2013)

Oops


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## Gabbee (Feb 12, 2013)

So Cassie, I do not have experience with puppies so I hope you are able to connect with someone on this site that will give you the support you are hoping for. I wanted to offer my support with the home disaster. We had a bad disaster in our home a couple years ago and our first dog was diagnosed with cancer the same day. I hope that things at home will settle down for you soon and hoping your fluff has a easy pregnancy.


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## SuziLee (Aug 17, 2011)

I am so sickened this can in anyway be seen as a situation that deserves congratulations and happy, dancing icons. This is NOT something to celebrate. More puppies coming into the world through careless or accidental breeding when millions are being euthanized in this country every year. 

My boy, Pappy, is one of those mixed-breed dogs that was abandoned and turned up at the local "humane" shelter. Guess someone got tired of dealing with his health issues.

I agree, Pam, this does not seem like the same SM that I have been reading and learning from for the past 2 1/2 years. Very sad.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

SuziLee said:


> I am so sickened this can in anyway be seen as a situation that deserves congratulations and happy, dancing icons. This is NOT something to celebrate. More puppies coming into the world through careless or accidental breeding when millions are being euthanized in this country every year.
> 
> My boy, Pappy, is one of those mixed-breed dogs that was abandoned and turned up at the local "humane" shelter. Guess someone got tired of dealing with his health issues.
> 
> I agree, Pam, this does not seem like the same SM that I have been reading and learning from for the past 2 1/2 years. Very sad.


:goodpost: This is not a congratulatory event but an event we can learn from to avoid in the future. We will offer our support in the welfare of this litter but that is very different than condoning/congratulating the accident.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.





SuziLee said:


> I am so sickened this can in anyway be seen as a situation that deserves congratulations and happy, dancing icons. This is NOT something to celebrate. More puppies coming into the world through careless or accidental breeding when millions are being euthanized in this country every year.
> 
> My boy, Pappy, is one of those mixed-breed dogs that was abandoned and turned up at the local "humane" shelter. Guess someone got tired of dealing with his health issues.
> 
> I agree, Pam, this does not seem like the same SM that I have been reading and learning from for the past 2 1/2 years. Very sad.





hoaloha said:


> :goodpost: This is not a congratulatory event but an event we can learn from to avoid in the future. We will offer our support in the welfare of this litter but that is very different than condoning/congratulating the accident.



Not trying to stir up trouble or re-state what others have already said, and much better than I could; but want to let you all know you are not alone in your thoughts and beliefs. And I certainly don't think we need to worry about causing offense when we defend the integrity of responsible, ethical, purebred breeding programs. We are after all, a MALTESE forum. Not a Malti-this or that forum. I love our honorary Maltese here but their mommy's are not ones that are actively desiring designer/mixed dogs. Some are rescues and others are from before they came here with an open mind and took some time to read and learn. That is what I hope comes from this thread.


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok this topic has been blown way out proportion!!! IAM NOT A BYB....IAM NOT SELLING FOR MONEY...I TRUSTED SHE KNEW HER DOG WAS FIXED! End of story!! Like I said before my mother and aunt were breeders, so I do have experienced help in this!! Life can take bad turns, this is one of them! Ill admit I should of known her dog better and so on, but when you were in the situation Iam in with loosing half our house that isn't one of the first things that come to your mind. Im usually pretty quiet on here and don't get involved in DRAMA! But this is going way to far!!! You make me out to be some money hungry, evil, stupid, person!! Well guess what YOU ARE WRONG! So quite frankly, this forum Iam done with!! Your here to be supportive and help friends not degrade them! So take it as you wish! If you have issue with it then contact me through email. 
Sorry to all those who were understanding about this! But I can only deal with so much ridiculing before I speak my mind! Take Care and Best of Luck!


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Not trying to stir up trouble or re-state what others have already said, and much better than I could; but want to let you all know you are not alone in your thoughts and beliefs. And I certainly don't think we need to worry about causing offense when we defend the integrity of responsible, ethical, purebred breeding programs. *We are after all, a MALTESE forum. Not a Malti-this or that forum.* I love our honorary Maltese here but their mommy's are not ones that are actively desiring designer/mixed dogs. Some are rescues and others are from before they came here with an open mind and took some time to read and learn. That is what I hope comes from this thread.


I will have you know both Romeo and Juliet are NOT mix! I joined this forum when I got Juliet who is all Maltese...


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## JulietsMommy (Oct 1, 2012)

Ladysmom said:


> Well said, Pam. What's worse is that those responsible for the change in attitude on SM are not even paying members who help keep this forum going.


This forum is about support for fellow Maltese owners, questions, and worries? I'm I wrong? I understand having to pay to keep a site up and going but I believe this was a rather RUDE comment. Some people aren't on here all that much, like myself. I had planned on contributing to the forum once I was more involved and more time. 


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

JulietsMommy said:


> I will have you know both Romeo and Juliet are NOT mix! I joined this forum when I got Juliet who is all Maltese...


Cassie I wasn't saying your two are mixes. However the puppies are a mix. Nor was my last post in reference to this whole situation. My last post was directed towards those that are celebrating this situation and attacking purebred dogs and ethical breeders. You yourself are not celebrating this situation. You know all of us here will do what we can to help you ensure your little girl and babies are healthy and the pregnancy and delivery go smoothly. Please don't get upset by those of us that feel the need to educate and defend ethical, reputable breeding programs due to other peoples responses in your thread.


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## nwyant1946 (Jan 2, 2013)

hoaloha said:


> :goodpost: This is not a congratulatory event but an event we can learn from to avoid in the future. We will offer our support in the welfare of this litter but that is very different than condoning/congratulating the accident.


*Exactly...everyone can learn from this. Just be very very careful. The one good thing is that all the puppies will be placed (at least that's what I got) in good homes. Hopefully, they will not have issues that have to be dealt with. I still don't understand how you can't not know that your male dog hasn't been neutered...*


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

I don't believe an owner can think their male dog is neutered when he's not - I mean, it's kind of glaringly obvious when they're intact. 
I get that it was a really bad decision and you didn't intend for this to happen, but people are annoyed at how some posts are saying congrats etc. 
You already had a scare after her first heat and then decided to leave her get to her second heat and let her go to someone elses house while in heat. 

My dog Amber is from an accidental mating. Her owners never intended for her mom to get pregnant. I consider them a BYB. ANYONE who lets their dog get pregnant, "accident" or not and doesn't show dogs(for the majority of breeds) is a BYB.


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Ladysmom said:


> Well said, Pam. What's worse is that those responsible for the change in attitude on SM are not even paying members who help keep this forum going.


I am utterly sickened at the ugly side of people I have seen in this thread. I am equally as offended and sickened by this comment, it is incredibly offensive and I can not believe that is has not been addressed by more people or by the the admin or moderators of this forum.

I guess those of us who do not pay to be on this forum know where we stand, we are not part of the 'group' we are outsiders who should feel honored that we are allowed to post at all.

This will be my last post, I have had it with people being bullied on this forum and I do not want to be part of any community that condones bullying.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

shellbeme said:


> I am utterly sickened at the ugly side of people I have seen in this thread. I am equally as offended and sickened by this comment, it is incredibly offensive and I can not believe that is has not been addressed by more people or by the the admin or moderators of this forum.
> 
> I guess those of us who do not pay to be on this forum know where we stand, we are not part of the 'group' we are outsiders who should feel honored that we are allowed to post at all.
> 
> This will be my last post, I have had it with people being bullied on this forum and I do not want to be part of any community that condones bullying.


There's nothing wrong with that post. It was stating a fact and did not say that ALL non paying members are the same. There are plenty of non paying members that contribute greatly


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

nwyant1946 said:


> *Exactly...everyone can learn from this. Just be very very careful. The one good thing is that all the puppies will be placed (at least that's what I got) in good homes. Hopefully, they will not have issues that have to be dealt with. I still don't understand *how you can't not know that *your* male dog hasn't been neutered..*.*


Did you read her post ??? It WAS NOT *HER* DOG !!!!! *HER DOG IS NEUTERED.

*Nothing will be learned from this thread. All it will do is keep people away from this forum and those who are already here will think twice before asking for advise or help. 




> What's worse is that those responsible for the change in attitude on SM are not even paying members who help keep this forum going.


Sorry Marj, but this is a cheap shot.:smilie_tischkante: We have all been non paying members at the beginning.


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## StevieB (Feb 2, 2012)

JulietsMommy said:


> Ok this topic has been blown way out proportion!!! IAM NOT A BYB....IAM NOT SELLING FOR MONEY...I TRUSTED SHE KNEW HER DOG WAS FIXED! End of story!! Like I said before my mother and aunt were breeders, so I do have experienced help in this!! Life can take bad turns, this is one of them! Ill admit I should of known her dog better and so on, but when you were in the situation Iam in with loosing half our house that isn't one of the first things that come to your mind. Im usually pretty quiet on here and don't get involved in DRAMA! But this is going way to far!!! You make me out to be some money hungry, evil, stupid, person!! Well guess what YOU ARE WRONG! So quite frankly, this forum Iam done with!! Your here to be supportive and help friends not degrade them! So take it as you wish! If you have issue with it then contact me through email.
> Sorry to all those who were understanding about this! But I can only deal with so much ridiculing before I speak my mind! Take Care and Best of Luck!


Cassie, I am sorry you are feeling vilified. This is ALWAYS a hot button topic on SM and as a group we are passionate about responsible breeding practices. Personally, I appreciate that fact that you have carefully placed the puppies, you are not profiting from them, and you plan on having Juliet spayed. There has been much debate on this thread about the topic, and you have been caught in the crossfire. I hope you know everyone wishes only the best for your baby girl and her puppies and I hope you will come back to the forum.


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## StevieB (Feb 2, 2012)

shellbeme said:


> I am utterly sickened at the ugly side of people I have seen in this thread. I am equally as offended and sickened by this comment, it is incredibly offensive and I can not believe that is has not been addressed by more people or by the the admin or moderators of this forum.
> 
> I guess those of us who do not pay to be on this forum know where we stand, we are not part of the 'group' we are outsiders who should feel honored that we are allowed to post at all.
> 
> This will be my last post, I have had it with people being bullied on this forum and I do not want to be part of any community that condones bullying.


Shelly, I am very sorry to hear this as I think you have made so many great contributions to the forum. You can be sure this thread is being monitored carefully by the mods. There is a fine line between passionate debate and bullying. I hope you'll reconsider leaving.


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## Leila'sMommy (Oct 20, 2012)

It's one thing to educate someone or to defend a breed. But it's another to try to do it with angry or insulting words. Putting someone down or trying to ridicule them does not educate. Instead, it can cause them to close their ears and move on to somewhere else where they can actually find the help they were looking for OR it can make them afraid to ask anything in the future to anyone. The OP was in an unusual circumstance because of the flood and placed her babies temporarily where she was under the impression they would be safe. She had not had her girl spayed because of her vet's advise. She did not come here to ask about how to go about breeding mixed puppies or any puppies, for that matter. She's not planning to sell these puppies. They already have homes and will be fixed so they don't continue having more puppies. What's done is done. She was just telling us what happened and asking for understanding and I would think so that she could ask questions as the pregnancy continues if the need arises. I don't think there are any of us here who believe in backyard breeding but when something like this happens, I think we could all be a little nicer to the posters here...unless someone comes here with the intentions of wrongdoing. 


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Orla said:


> I don't believe an owner can think their male dog is neutered when he's not - I mean, it's kind of glaringly obvious when they're intact.
> I get that it was a really bad decision and you didn't intend for this to happen, but people are annoyed at how some posts are saying congrats etc.
> You already had a scare after her first heat and then decided to leave her get to her second heat and let her go to someone elses house while in heat.
> 
> My dog Amber is from an accidental mating. Her owners never intended for her mom to get pregnant. I consider them a BYB. ANYONE who lets their dog get pregnant, "accident" or not and doesn't show dogs(for the majority of breeds) is a BYB.


That thread is starting to get me angry with some of the responses.
Lets look at your answer. I know you mean well, but your answer is upsetting.
- First of all, she let her get to her second heat on the advice of her vet and there was no urgency since her male was fixed. 
- Secondly, an "accident" breeding does not make one a backyard breeder, it makes them an "accident breeder". A backyard breeder breeds dogs on purpose to sell them. An accident breeder does not do it on purpose.
- And when it comes to knowing if a dog is neutered or not, of course I think of the education of the people involved BUT on the other hand when you hear politicians talking about women's vaginas and their ignorance about what they are saying, I kind of am not surprised anymore. I hope you appreciate me not to be blunt. I could say it in a better and understandable way but it would not come out as polite. I try to be nice and not rude. YOU and I know what a fixed dog looks like, but not everybody knows.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

MalteseJane said:


> That thread is starting to get me angry with some of the responses.
> Lets look at your answer. I know you mean well, but your answer is upsetting.
> - First of all, she let her get to her second heat on the advice of her vet and there was no urgency since her male was fixed.
> - Secondly, an "accident" breeding does not make one a backyard breeder, it makes them an "accident breeder". A backyard breeder breeds dogs on purpose to sell them. An accident breeder does not do it on purpose.
> - And when it comes to knowing if a dog is neutered or not, of course I think of the education of the people involved BUT on the other hand when you hear politicians talking about women's vaginas and their ignorance about what they are saying, I kind of am not surprised anymore. I hope you appreciate me not to be blunt. I could say it in a better and understandable way but it would not come out as polite. I try to be nice and not rude. YOU and I know what a fixed dog looks like, but not everybody knows.


I don't see why a vet would recommend waiting until after her 2nd heat if she wasn't in heat at the time(maybe she was and I missed that post).
Vets also recommend food that the company has paid them to recommend - even if it's crap(at least, this happens here in Ireland), they also say dogs need yearly vaccinations when studies have shown they do not. 

I really don't see how my post was upsetting. If this the OP hadn't already had a scare during the dogs first heat, I probably would have been more understanding.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

pammy4501 said:


> Such a sad day here on SM when reputable show breeders are called greeders and the BYBer's here are now patting each other on the back and others are endorsing this behavior. I can't believe my eyes. Sorry.


:ThankYou:


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

CloudClan said:


> I am not sure I get your Hitler statement, but I guess you are trying to draw a relationship between purebred dogs and eugenics. This is an argument used by PETA folks who believe that we should not have purebred dogs at all. Since this forum is based on a love of a particular breed, the argument seems strange in this context.


Sorry Carina to take your post to answer the Hitler statement. Could not find the one again who mentioned the holocaust. 

This lady obviously has trouble expressing herself in English. As she mentioned she is from Russia. Different culture. I think you (not you personally) should give her a brake. I can understand her, I have some difficulties expressing what I mean in pure English too. 
Now when she makes reference to Hitler, she does not mean the Holocaust and that he killed millions of people. What she means is the program Hitler had in place to create an Aryan nation, pure Germans, tall, blond, blue eyes, pure blood... Males and females who fit the requirement were chosen and sent to special retreats were they were matched to each other and were made to copulate and breed pure blood children. The children out of that breeding were not raised by the parents who actually not even knew each other. _In a way, isn't it what we are doing with the dogs ? matching only one kind of breed with each other in order to keep it pure ? _This has nothing to do with PETA. She does not even know what PETA is.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

MalteseJane said:


> Sorry Carina to take your post to answer the Hitler statement. Could not find the one again who mentioned the holocaust.
> 
> This lady obviously has trouble expressing herself in English. As she mentioned she is from Russia. Different culture. I think you (not you personally) should give her a brake. I can understand her, I have some difficulties expressing what I mean in pure English too.
> Now when she makes reference to Hitler, she does not mean the Holocaust and that he killed millions of people. What she means is the program Hitler had in place to create an Aryan nation, pure Germans, tall, blond, blue eyes, pure blood... Males and females who fit the requirement were chosen and sent to special retreats were they were matched to each other and were made to copulate and breed pure blood children. The children out of that breeding were not raised by the parents who actually not even knew each other. _In a way, isn't it what we are doing with the dogs ? matching only one kind of breed with each other in order to keep it pure ? _This has nothing to do with PETA. She does not even know what PETA is.


She explained what she meant and said that neutering and spaying dogs is killing them in the way that they cannot continue their line.
ETA - page 7, it's quoted in post 66 and 68.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Orla said:


> *I don't see why a vet would recommend waiting until after her 2nd heat if she wasn't in heat at the time(maybe she was and I missed that post).*
> Vets also recommend food that the company has paid them to recommend - even if it's crap(at least, this happens here in Ireland), they also say dogs need yearly vaccinations when studies have shown they do not.
> 
> I really don't see how my post was upsetting. If this the OP hadn't already had a scare during the dogs first heat, I probably would have been more understanding.


The Plot Thickens: Spay Neuter Effects & the Health of Our Dogs TheOtherEndoftheLeash

Did you read this ? There is a huge controversy going on now about neutering and spaying and at what time doing it. By the way, in France the SPCA is spaying females before placing them but they don't neuter males.
The OP thought that the male was fixed. HER male was fixed. I wonder what you would have done if faced with your house flooded and having to find a place where to put your dogs. Would a shelter have been better than her sister in law's house ? I hope you are never put in that situation.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

I missed most of this but I think people are congratulating her anyway kinda the way people congratulate a woman who's unmarried daughter gets pregnant... trying to be polite.

Not like people are going to say anything rude about an unplanned pregnancy... like " wow you're a horrible parent,your unmarried daughter is knocked up".

I think they're meaning to wish her the best given the situation. I wish her the best in this situation,praying mother and babies will be healthy, that the mother will be spayed as soon as practical, and the babies adopted out to responsible people who will spay or neuter at the appropriate time...

As a transporter, foster and shelter volunteer working with unplanned pups and kittens and unwanted dogs and cats, it does bother me when unplanned pups or kittens are born when so many others in shelters need homes...
Not everyone is as educated on these things as others are... and her vet told her to wait until after the 2nd heat.. time for a new vet ,I say...
She took her vet's bad advice the way many people take bad professional advice...


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## StevieB (Feb 2, 2012)

Thank you Michelle, well put.

Ok friends. I think the issues in the original post have been thoroughly addressed and this is starting to get off topic. I would love for the discussion on the spay/neuter debate to continue under the thread Janine started a couple days ago because it is a worthwhile discussion. But as for this thread it is closed. 

Cassie, I hope you will come back and give us an update on Juliet and the puppies.


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