# Sometimes dog shows or standards make me mad



## mmforever (Apr 13, 2005)

I'm angry, because I read or hear about what is standard or how our dogs should be shaped or how their hair should be in order to be in a show. Y'know, if our babies are a pure Maltese, what difference does it all make? The legs should be this long, the snout not too far out, the tail curled just so, etc. It makes me angry because a Maltese is a Maltese no matter if it has "deformities" (meaning not to show standard). Just like in humans - some are short, wide, cross eyed, curly hair, etc. Not one is more beautiful than the other. We're all beautiful in our own way.

And I feel if dog show runners really loved dogs, they wouldn't believe in one ultimate ideal.

I love Molly, just as she is!!! 

Thanks for letting me vent. Sometimes I get soooo mad about things that aren't relevant to much of anything.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

My Matilda is perfect in my eyes, and that's really all that matters


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I always come away from Dog Shows a little upset. The conformation standards are there for a reason, but the "hair-do" standards and tricks it takes to show and win, that's what upsets me.

The only (real) reason for a registery and showing is to preserve and improve a breed. By improve I mean health. A lot of conformation standard is health related i.e. straight legs, good gait, etc. Size--I have a little trouble with--only when humans use breeding to make an animal too small to be really robust and healthy. 

I have personal likes and dislikes about MY perfect Maltese........I will adjust to some things, but if I was going to draw my perfect Malt, he would have a more normal looking face than some of the "babydoll faced" Malts, be between 7 & 10 lbs., have lots of silky coat but--not fuzzy or curly, have ears set fairly low, large almost round eyes, a flat medium length (by current standards) back, and be almost square by height/length.

Would I love an imperfect animal by any standard, any less, of course not! :excl:


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## mmforever (Apr 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Frosty's Mom_@Sep 6 2005, 12:04 PM
> *The only (real) reason for a registery and showing is to preserve and improve a breed. By improve I mean health. A lot of conformation standard is health related i.e. straight legs, good gait, etc.  Size--I have a little trouble with--only when humans use breeding to make an animal too small to be really robust and healthy.
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> Would I love an imperfect animal by any standard, any less, of course not! :excl:
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=97269*


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I understand about the health issues, but sometimes I feel like its more preference on how they are shaped or look.

Thanks for replying. I appreciate all comments.


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## HollyHobbie (Apr 12, 2005)

Well I look at it in terms of a beauty pageant....people come in all sorts of shapes and looks but only a few can achieve Miss America levels. They have a "standard" the same as dog shows.

Does it mean that if you are not Miss America material you are less beautiful, less desired, less smart. NO it just means you are not Miss America. The same with show dogs. Just because one malt might not be perfect to standards do not mean it is any less of a great dog.

And besides that dogs don't know they don't meet the standards. LOL


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## Violet's Mom (Aug 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by HollyHobbie_@Sep 6 2005, 01:38 PM
> *Well I look at it in terms of a beauty pageant....people come in all sorts of shapes and looks but only a few can achieve Miss America levels. They have a "standard" the same as dog shows.
> 
> Does it mean that if you are not Miss America material you are less beautiful, less desired, less smart. NO it just means you are not Miss America. The same with show dogs. Just because one malt might not be perfect to standards do not mean it is any less of a great dog.
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these are my sentiments as well.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

I don't show dogs and really know nothing about breeding or standards but if there weren't people who did make sure that breeders stayed true to the breed standards our pups that we are all so proud of might not be the gorgeous pups that they are!!! We may not care how long their snouts are or if their hind quarters are just exactly right but I do think we need to be grateful to all those out there who have, for the love of the breed, safeguarded the breed standards and characteristics. Otherwise a malt could look like a bichon could look like a poodle could look like a beagle. 

I think it is great that we love our malts no matter how imperfect they are but we should all be thankful for the careful selection that goes into the breeding of our beloved pups. Otherwise there would be no difference between our pups who come from knowledgable respected breeders and puppymill pups!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by puppymom_@Sep 6 2005, 04:13 PM
> *I don't show dogs and really know nothing about breeding or standards but if there weren't people who did make sure that breeders stayed true to the breed standards our pups that we are all so proud of might not be the gorgeous pups that they are!!!  We may not care how long their snouts are or if their hind quarters are just exactly right but I do think we need to be grateful to all those out there who have, for the love of the breed, safeguarded the breed standards and characteristics.  Otherwise a malt could look like a bichon could look like a poodle could look like a beagle.
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> I think it is great that we love our malts no matter how imperfect they are but we should all be thankful for the careful selection that goes into the breeding of our beloved pups.  Otherwise there would be no difference between our pups who come from knowledgable respected breeders and puppymill pups!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=97318*


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Very well said and so very true. Thank you for taking the time to write exactly what I was thinking!!


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## sassy14830 (Jan 19, 2005)

As some of you know I work for a Show handler/ breeder. Prissy is a beautiful maltese but I have gotten very good about seeing a maltese and telling what is wrong with them as far as standard. 

Faults
Prissy is to big
too long from the shoulders to the tail
Nose about 1/2 too long
weak rear which causes a swinging gate.

Pros
Great pigment no matter how much sun she gets
perfect coat even though I have neglected it many times
great neck and shoulder set 
good eyes
perfect tail set

While listing all of these things wrong and right with my maltese all I could think about is how much I love her for being her

One time I was talking to my boss about how different Prissy looks compared to her dogs and she said something very nice that you wouldnt expect from a hardcore Maltese breederr.
All Maltese are beautiful in there own way.

Just like people they all have the pros and the cons about them but they are perfect to us and thats what really matters.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Just borrowed a computer at work to check in. Naturally, I had to reply to this post.

We all have our own standard for what we like in a Maltese. We all think our dogs are beautiful. Thankfully, there is a standard set which allows us to work to breed so that our dogs are true to what a Maltese should look like. Right now, I'm growing coat on FIVE from my breeding, as well as another I purchased from another well respected breeder. I'm not sure that all will make it into the ring, but right now, I like what I see. If they don't meet the standard so that I think they can be the quality for the ring, then, they will get a hair cut. They may even find a new home, if I decide they don't meet my standard for breeding. Some of you may think it is cruel to do this to a dog. But, mine love the care and attention. They know they are pretty, and they like to show it off. To me, a quality Maltese will make me have chills when I see them walk across the floor. In my case, I plot and plan for years to come as to what will happen if I put this with this to make that. (Funny sentence, huh?) 
I can well understand your point about show dogs if you are not involved with it, or don't have an interest in breeding. But, in my opinion, a person who is involved with this should only work to better the breed, and to have the best representation of them for their breeding stock--both in confirmation and in health. They should, in turn, only sell to other breeders who hold the same high standards.
I would encourage you to attend more shows and look at the dogs who do win. Then, go look at the dogs who have a long body, a curly coat, or bad bite. Why should these dogs who do not meet the standard be used for breeding. To me, this is almost as bad a breeding mixes.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

I wish I knew someone who was well versed on the maltese standards. I would love to know what is "correct" about Toby's features and what is "incorrect" just for my own personal knowledge. I do know that his body is way to long, but as far as facial features, I am not so sure. I, personally, may be a bit biased, but I love the way his face looks. If his facial features are incorrect, then when I look for another maltese, I would look for his type of features again.







If anyone would like to critique Toby's features, please feel free. I would be very interested in knowing.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

This is the BEST site I've found (I've posted it before) on the Maltese Standard. It shows you in detail what to look for.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Sep 6 2005, 08:29 PM
> *Just borrowed a computer at work to check in.  Naturally, I had to reply to this post.
> 
> We all have our own standard for what we like in a Maltese.  We all think our dogs are beautiful.  Thankfully, there is a standard set which allows us to work to breed so that our dogs are true to what a Maltese should look like.  Right now, I'm growing coat on FIVE from my breeding, as well as another I purchased from another well respected breeder.  I'm not sure that all will make it into the ring, but right now, I like what I see.  If they don't meet the standard so that I think they can be the quality for the ring, then, they will get a hair cut.  They may even find a new home, if I decide they don't meet my standard for breeding.  Some of you may think it is cruel to do this to a dog.  But, mine love the care and attention.  They know they are pretty, and they like to show it off.  To me, a quality Maltese will make me have chills when I see them walk across the floor.  In my case, I plot and plan for years to come as to what will happen if I put this with this to make that.  (Funny sentence, huh?)
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Very well said, LucyLou. I think the confusion may lie in the fact that people are comparing dogs to human beings and beauty contests, etc. I don't believe that has anything to do with dogs. I'm grateful to those breeders who try to breed to standard so that when I go looking for another Malt, I'll have some idea what he/she will look like and what the personality will be.... those traits that attracted me to the breed to begin with.

My Kallie is way off standard. To me she is beautiful and has a delightful personality. She is a fabulous pet but she is so very different in looks and personality from Catcher, who was bred to standard; however, of course he has tons of "faults" but he is much more representative of the breed than she is.


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## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

You have to keep in mind too that all the standard is...is a piece of paper. It is up to the individual breeder to interpret the standard to the best of their ability and to breed dogs that in their opinion are the best representatives of that standard. So someone may like a longer nose, some may like a babydoll face, some may like a dog more up on leg or neck. So no...even if you breed to the standard, not every dog is going to look identical. I show havanese and while my dog is within the height standard for the breed....some judges like a smaller dog, some like a more delicate bone structure, some prefer a more sloping topline. So even though you may have a dog who is a champion, if you line him up next to another champion, there will still be differences within the breed. I guess the point I am making is....there is NO perfect representation of the breed out there, they will ALL have their strong and weak points, but if you do not breed to some sort of ideal and put your dogs out there to be judged against others, you have no clue what you are producing, and are certainly not helping to promote and improve the breed.

Nichole, I think that Toby is adorable, I could not critique him. If you want to see what a show-quality maltese looks like, come out to the show in Kenosha this weekend. You may like what you see, you may not. The point is...it doesn't matter...if Toby's face is the one you love, then do not worry about having him compared to the standard....he is beautiful just the way he is.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Pippinsmom_@Sep 6 2005, 08:31 PM
> *Nichole, I think that Toby is adorable, I could not critique him.  If you want to see what a show-quality maltese looks like, come out to the show in Kenosha this weekend.  You may like what you see, you may not.  The point is...it doesn't matter...if Toby's face is the one you love, then do not worry about having him compared to the standard....he is beautiful just the way he is.
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You're going to be in Kenosha this weekend? I might stop by...I'll PM you.

I guess since I have not seen many "show quality" maltese, I am just curious if Toby is within breed standards. Personally, I don't care if he is or isn't, I have just always wondered.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

I myself have always wondered how do the breeders tell so early if the puppy meets the standard. I mean in terms of weight/ hight/ things like that.
Is it possible to give away a champion puppy by acciedent? Since they are not fully developed yet at 12 weeks


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Chelsey_@Sep 7 2005, 07:17 AM
> *I myself have always wondered how do the breeders tell so early if the puppy meets the standard.  I mean in terms of weight/ hight/ things like that.
> Is it possible to give away a champion puppy by acciedent?  Since they are not fully developed yet at 12 weeks
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=97440*


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I think that most show breeders will hang onto a puppy who has show potential until he is older, 4 or 5 months old at least. You're right - 12 weeks is just too young to tell.

Lucy Lou, I agree with you 100%. Maltese who do not meet the standard should not be bred. It's so sad to see the product of backyard breeding, however well-intentioned. The so-called breeder may think their Maltese is beautiful, but they are not experts and their opinions are definately biased. The results are Maltese puppies who grow up to be too big and have cottony, curly coats at LL says, not to mention the potential for health problems.

People who breed have to be hard-hearted and cull their dogs, only breed the best of the best.


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## kodie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nichole_@Sep 6 2005, 08:36 PM
> *I wish I knew someone who was well versed on the maltese standards.  I would love to know what is "correct" about Toby's features and what is "incorrect" just for my own personal knowledge.  I do know that his body is way to long, but as far as facial features, I am not so sure.  I, personally, may be a bit biased, but I love the way his face looks.  If his facial features are incorrect, then when I look for another maltese, I would look for his type of features again.
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I'm just curious if Kodie could be a show dog... haha... i already know he couldnt because his two ribs stick out and he has a bump on the end of his tail (his grandmother had it), plus his jaw is not aligned correctly. 
ohh well... at least his face might qualify.







haha... i dont care anyway... I love my baby no matter what!







I think Kodie is cuter than some of those show dogs! haha


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kodie+Sep 7 2005, 08:08 AM-->
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I'm just curious if Kodie could be a show dog... haha... i already know he couldnt because his two ribs stick out and he has a bump on the end of his tail (his grandmother had it), plus his jaw is not aligned correctly. 
ohh well... at least his face might qualify.







haha... i dont care anyway... I love my baby no matter what!







I think Kodie is cuter than some of those show dogs! haha
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=97454
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I agree! Kodie would get my vote for the world's cutest Maltese especially if he was wearing his duck costume!


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Carrie_@Sep 6 2005, 09:01 PM
> *This is the BEST site I've found (I've posted it before) on the Maltese Standard.  It shows you in detail what to look for.
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This has some really good information... Thanks


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Chelsey+Sep 7 2005, 09:34 AM-->
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This has some really good information... Thanks
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=97462
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You're welcome.


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## Maxismom (Mar 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by mmforever+Sep 6 2005, 12:09 PM-->
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I understand about the health issues, but sometimes I feel like its more preference on how they are shaped or look.

Thanks for replying. I appreciate all comments.
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I agree maxi is a purebreed and he has all his black points he is 9.5lbs
and he is long certainly not the compact size of a maltese or should i say too the standards of what these people claim a maltese is supposed to be. I love maxis size i think they need to change the standards actually i really don't care


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

I completely agree with LucyLou and what many others have said as well. Obviously only the dogs that are meet the standard should be bred and if a breeder doesn't show his/her dogs then I don't see how she/he/they could know for sure if their dog is within the standard.

Last year I was explaining all this show dog stuff and breed standard stuff to a co-worker who is a foreigner and she thought the goal of it was kind of horrifying a bit -- kind of like that Hitler wanted to accomplish. A genetic manupilation to accomplish similar traits/looks (blond hair, blue eyes, etc). I thought it was kind of funny at the time because its really not quiet like that, but I could see her point!

I realize that Miko is not within standard. Alhtough he is 7 lbs (not too larger) and has the cutest face, his coat is too wavy, at least when its short, and too cottony. I love him regardless of course and so does my husband. In fact, my husband said that if we get another maltese, he wants to get one of Miko's relatives, like a brother/sister/cousin!!


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## Maxismom (Mar 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kodie+Sep 7 2005, 08:08 AM-->
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I'm just curious if Kodie could be a show dog... haha... i already know he couldnt because his two ribs stick out and he has a bump on the end of his tail (his grandmother had it), plus his jaw is not aligned correctly. 
ohh well... at least his face might qualify.







haha... i dont care anyway... I love my baby no matter what!







I think Kodie is cuter than some of those show dogs! haha
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=97454
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Bump schump







Kodie is gorgeous absoluetly gorgeous 
i have alsways stopped to look at his pictures online i think he is a show dog
regardless


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## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

I guess the one thing that really chafes MY hide is when someone infers that just because I show my dog, he is somehow lacking in love, care and attention. My dogs are the kids I will never have, they are showered with love and the best of everything. They are treasured beyond measure, and showing is just something we happen to do together on the weekends. The boy I am showing may get groomed and primped a little more than the others, but other than that, whether pet or show, they are all equally loved members of my family.


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## Maxismom (Mar 24, 2004)

i was thinking about growing maxis hair just to see what he looks like with long hair( now that summer is over) how long does that take ?, maxi would look grogeous with the hair pulled back , im not just saying this because i adore and love him







but everyone stops me every day to tell me how beauitful maxi is
he really has a handsome face ( not partial or anything )








its just a thought , i mean i know it takes alot of grooming which i do he has a standard appt every 3 weeks and i bath him weekly and brush him every day so i dont think it would be an issue im just wondering how long this takes


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Maxismom_@Sep 8 2005, 09:08 AM
> *i was thinking about growing maxis hair just to see what he looks like with long hair( now that summer is over)  how long does that take ?, maxi would look grogeous with the hair pulled back , im not just saying this because i adore and love him
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Hair growth has a lot to do with genetics. I have a six month old girl who should have hair to the floor in three or four more months. The sire to a couple of the pups I'm growing coat on now had hair dragging the floor at nine months of age. I've seen other dogs who would probably take up to two years to get the hair that long, if one chose to grow it out. Of course those would be the ones I wouldn't be growing out because I wouldn't want that gene in my line.


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## Maxismom (Mar 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou+Sep 8 2005, 11:12 AM-->
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Hair growth has a lot to do with genetics. I have a six month old girl who should have hair to the floor in three or four more months. The sire to a couple of the pups I'm growing coat on now had hair dragging the floor at nine months of age. I've seen other dogs who would probably take up to two years to get the hair that long, if one chose to grow it out. Of course those would be the ones I wouldn't be growing out because I wouldn't want that gene in my line.
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im not sure what you meant when you said you wouldnt want that gene in my line what does that mean?


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maxismom+Sep 8 2005, 01:44 PM-->
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im not sure what you meant when you said you wouldnt want that gene in my line what does that mean?
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I'm not sure, but I think she meant she wouldn't want that genetic trait of taking close to 2 years for hair to grow out in her dogs....so she wouldn't be growing them out (the ones that would take that long) because of that.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Maxismom+Sep 8 2005, 12:44 PM-->
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im not sure what you meant when you said you wouldnt want that gene in my line what does that mean?
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Lucy Lou breeds Maltese. Does it make more sense now?


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I'm not sure, but I think she meant she wouldn't want that genetic trait of taking close to 2 years for hair to grow out in her dogs....so she wouldn't be growing them out (the ones that would take that long) because of that.
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That is what I meant. It's like what I said earlier about putting this trait with another, and improving on the line. That is why I introduced the European lines into my dogs. There were some characteristics there that I wanted to work with.
It's also why I plan several years ahead as to what I'm going to do with my dogs. That doesn't mean I won't change, if something better develops, but I do have a plan for them.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Pippinsmom_@Sep 8 2005, 05:23 AM
> *I guess the one thing that really chafes MY hide is when someone infers that just because I show my dog, he is somehow lacking in love, care and attention.  My dogs are the kids I will never have, they are showered with love and the best of everything.  They are treasured beyond measure, and showing is just something we happen to do together on the weekends.  The boy I am showing may get groomed and primped a little more than the others, but other than that, whether pet or show, they are all equally loved members of my family.
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Pippinsmom,

We would love to see a picture of your havanese puppy. What's his name? That's the one you are showing, right? Not Pippin?


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