# New "Low Dose" Rabies Vaccine?



## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I have heard that a low dose rabies vaccine is being used by some folks but I cannot find any information on it...does anyone know anything about this?


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## ckanen2n (Jan 2, 2012)

I would also like to know!


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## Leila'sMommy (Oct 20, 2012)

I haven't heard either but would also like to know. Leila will be due for hers before I know it. 


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I think some vets will give a kitten vaccine, which is smaller than the dog vaccine. I don't think it is legal, at least not in California.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

I'll ask our vet next time we see her.

She gave Grace a very tiny vaccine... Said there was no reason for her to have the "one size fits all" vaccine. Would be crazy given her size and history.

She does this for all her patients.... and she always does the 3 year to start so they are getting fewer vaccines.

So I will ask her how she doses it....


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Yes I know about it. I've spoken to both Dr. Dodds about it as well as my holistic vet, Dr. Dan maybe 6 months ago. April do you remember the webinar we both took with Dr. Dan and I kept bringing up the 1/2 cc rabies vaccine and he kept avoiding the topic? It's by B & I ( Boehringer Ingleheim). It's a 1/2 cc rabies vaccine if my memory is correct. However it still has the same number of antigens as the regular dosed rabies vaccine. I am NOT a vet or a vet tech so my technical terms are not always correct so please don't hold it against me if my terminology is incorrect. So my understanding is that it's designed to be more comfortable to the patient. Not so much that it's a smaller dose of the actual killed rabies virus or antigens in the actual vaccine. There is new technology developed by B & I that has allowed B & I to remove or condense by reducing the amount of adjuvant in the vaccine. Thimerosal is an adjuvant that contains mercury. So if I'm understanding this correctly, the patient may have a reaction to either the actual killed virus or they may have a reaction to one of the adjuvants. And adjuvants have been added when they went from a modified live virus to a killed virus to ensure it's effectiveness. Or I may have this completely wrong. :blink: But according to Dr. Dan, who sometimes is a bit overboard imo on being more conservative, it's too new and he's not comfortable recommending it yet to his patients. He's still saying the best route at this time is the mercury free one by Merial. Even though I do think Dr. Dan can be too conservative at times, I'm also one that likes to see something out on the market for awhile before using it myself.

Here's a link with some info on it:

New ULTRA Duramune vaccines are the first and only 1/2 mL vaccine line


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Grace'sMom said:


> I'll ask our vet next time we see her.
> 
> She gave Grace a very tiny vaccine... Said there was no reason for her to have the "one size fits all" vaccine. Would be crazy given her size and history.
> 
> ...


Tori, you may want to be careful at how freely you share this info. I truly believe a lot of vets who lean towards holistics or are more informed feel it unsafe to give a full dose to toy breeds. But if it becomes public knowledge, they can lose their license. I think a lot of of those types of vets may indeed give a smaller dose and not even tell the pet parent for this reason.

According to the law, they must give the one year rabies vaccine as their first rabies vaccine, and then from there on out it is the 3 year rabies vaccine. But a vet should never ever give an unhealthy dog any vaccines, even if there is no medical exemption for that state. Here's a nice article that breaks it down as to what constitutes an unhealthy dog. People may really be surprised.

Getting a Vaccination Waiver


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Yes I know about it. I've spoken to both Dr. Dodds about it as well as my holistic vet, Dr. Dan maybe 6 months ago. April do you remember the webinar we both took with Dr. Dan and I kept bringing up the 1/2 cc rabies vaccine and he kept avoiding the topic? It's by B & I ( Boehringer Ingleheim). It's a 1/2 cc rabies vaccine if my memory is correct. However it still has the same number of antigens as the regular dosed rabies vaccine. I am NOT a vet or a vet tech so my technical terms are not always correct so please don't hold it against me if my terminology is incorrect. So my understanding is that it's designed to be more comfortable to the patient. Not so much that it's a smaller dose of the actual killed rabies virus or antigens in the actual vaccine. There is new technology developed by B & I that has allowed B & I to remove or condense by reducing the amount of adjuvant in the vaccine. Thimerosal is an adjuvant that contains mercury. So if I'm understanding this correctly, the patient may have a reaction to either the actual killed virus or they may have a reaction to one of the adjuvants. And adjuvants have been added when they went from a modified live virus to a killed virus to ensure it's effectiveness. Or I may have this completely wrong. :blink: But according to Dr. Dan, who sometimes is a bit overboard imo on being more conservative, it's too new and he's not comfortable recommending it yet to his patients. He's still saying the best route at this time is the mercury free one by Merial. Even though I do think Dr. Dan can be too conservative at times, I'm also one that likes to see something out on the market for awhile before using it myself.
> 
> Here's a link with some info on it:
> 
> New ULTRA Duramune vaccines are the first and only 1/2 mL vaccine line


Yes, I do remember you mentioning that...I agree with you on the "wait and see"...Rose and Lily are not due again until 2014...I have held off getting the 3 year for Eva...Dr. Dan told me he probably would not vaccinate Eva because of her low platelets since this might have been caused by the rabies vaccine...thank you so much for the info..:wub:


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Tori, you may want to be careful at how freely you share this info. I truly believe a lot of vets who lean towards holistics or are more informed feel it unsafe to give a full dose to toy breeds. But if it becomes public knowledge, they can lose their license. I think a lot of of those types of vets may indeed give a smaller dose and not even tell the pet parent for this reason.
> 
> According to the law, they must give the one year rabies vaccine as their first rabies vaccine, and then from there on out it is the 3 year rabies vaccine. But a vet should never ever give an unhealthy dog any vaccines, even if there is no medical exemption for that state. Here's a nice article that breaks it down as to what constitutes an unhealthy dog. People may really be surprised.
> 
> Getting a Vaccination Waiver


I agree with Crystal, we should be careful to share this information. We don't want our vet to get in trouble. We can tell people with private messages or in the restricted part of this forum. But even so, people should not ask their own vet to do this by telling them they heard about it in a forum. They should make it look like it came from their own deduction that it does not make sense to give a small dog the same dose as a big dog.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I went back in my file and checked which rabies shot Charlie got. It's the killed virus manufactured by Pfizer. The label says : dogs and cats : 3 years - 1 dose/1 ml. Nobivac 3 Rabies.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

I have a sickly old dog that probably will not be getting another rabies vaccine. It probably would not be in her best interest. And a person can always refuse to have their dog vaccinated in any case. 

The problem with the term "waiver" is it makes me think of the waiver of the state or local law requiring vaccination. And in California, at least, it sounds a lot stricter: "would endanger the dog's life ...." And it sounds like all it does is prevent you from getting fined for not having your dog vaccinated. The dog is treated as unvaccinated and has to be on a leash (and maybe confined to your home if the local authorities require that). See California health and Safety Code, section 121690. Law section.

I would guess that groomers, doggie daycares and boarding kennels would not have to accept you. I guess me and my old dog won't be going anywhere!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I like the idea of less adjuvant...but I'm not sure how much this helps anything with vaccine reactions. All it takes is less than one drop of adjuvant to set off a reaction. If it is in the vaccine, it will still cause the same reaction. I would NEVER give Soda another rabies vaccine, no matter how little adjuvant.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

jmm said:


> I like the idea of less adjuvant...but I'm not sure how much this helps anything with vaccine reactions. All it takes is less than one drop of adjuvant to set off a reaction. If it is in the vaccine, it will still cause the same reaction. I would NEVER give Soda another rabies vaccine, no matter how little adjuvant.


Jackie, I don't know if you read the thread about Snowball's adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine yesterday ... however, I have a question that I would appreciate your feedback on.

How long do you think we have to worry about Snowball having another bad reaction to what happened yesterday? I am hearing that it can be quite a while.

Rhonda just posted on my FB page that her vet had MiMi on Benydryl for several days. Mimi also had a steroid treatment, like Snowball. (Snowball received the steroid treatment after our third round of returning to the hospital in a three and a half hour timeframe!)(Rhonda provided a picture of Mimi covered with huge hives all over her body) Rhonda said her vet gave her his home cell number because he said she could possibly have another bad episode.

So, please, what do you think? 

How is Soda doing? I hope he is okay.


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## puppydoll (Jul 11, 2013)

Very interesting!! This is all very new to me. I'm still wondering if it was HIV g such a large dose of rabies vaccine or the brand Merial for rabies that causes so many reactions.
Can anyone answer that?


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

I didn't hear about it, but it is interesting to know. 

The malts were due to their rabies vaccine last March, but I didn't take them there...yet.. Don't see it coming. They've been getting it regularly actually before mainly due to the fact that they traveled a lot with me...and secondly, the law requires it here *sigh*.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

puppydoll said:


> Very interesting!! This is all very new to me. I'm still wondering if it was HIV g such a large dose of rabies vaccine or the brand Merial for rabies that causes so many reactions.
> Can anyone answer that?


I don't think it's the brand Merial. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong. 


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## puppydoll (Jul 11, 2013)

Sorry for the typo... It's this crazy auto correct....grrr


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

eiksaa said:


> I don't think it's the brand Merial. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My understanding is that it's not the brand - it's either the vaccine itself or the preservative thiomersal. Merial actually makes a thiomersal-free vaccine which reduces the risk of reaction. If you wear contacts, look at the labels for "sensitive eyes" solutions - they are thiomersal-free for the same reasons which is to reduce the likelihood of a reaction.


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## puppydoll (Jul 11, 2013)

So did snowball get the thiomersal free shot? If so, then it would be the amount given?


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

maggieh said:


> My understanding is that it's not the brand - it's either the vaccine itself or the preservative thiomersal. Merial actually makes a thiomersal-free vaccine which reduces the risk of reaction. If you wear contacts, look at the labels for "sensitive eyes" solutions - they are thiomersal-free for the same reasons which is to reduce the likelihood of a reaction.


Snowball had an adverse reaction with the Merial TF. We were shown the vial with the Merial TF label right before the vaccine was injected into Snowball's right hind leg ... all done by the vet .., and, in front of us. We also have a photo copy of the label with the serial/ batch numbers that was used for Snowball's vaccination. So, for Snowball ... even the TF vaccine is not safe.


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## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

Marie, how old is Snowball, I forget ! Did he ever have a reaction to the rabies before? Dewey is due for his 3 yr. in November, and I have a concern about this as well. My other three have all had the three yr. rabies and did fine. They had the regular rabies shot I didn't know about the thimerosal free at the time.


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## puppydoll (Jul 11, 2013)

I hope Snowball is doing better....
Deborah, I was wondering the same thing about how old Snowball is and has he had any previous rabies vaccines and any reactions with those.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

MalteseJane said:


> I went back in my file and checked which rabies shot Charlie got. It's the killed virus manufactured by Pfizer. The label says : dogs and cats : 3 years - 1 dose/1 ml. Nobivac 3 Rabies.


We phoned Pfizer to inquire if their rabies vaccine was thimerosal free ... since it DOES NOT include thimerrosal on the label. Believe it or not, it is NOT thimerosal free! They do not include the thimerosal on the label ... so, now how does one trust labels anymore?!

Snowball's vet office uses the Pfizer. We had to ask for the Merial ... IMRAB 3 TF for Snowball. (and, he still had an adverse reaction!). We were told by the vet in Leesburg that they have only been using the Merial TF for ferrets ... I guess because it is the law for ferrets. Go figure ...


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

puppydoll said:


> So did snowball get the thiomersal free shot? If so, then it would be the amount given?


Yes, Snowball got the Merial IMRAB 3TF ( thimerosal free ). The same dose as a much larger dog receives ... all dogs receive the same dose.



Furbabies mom said:


> Marie, how old is Snowball, I forget ! Did he ever have a reaction to the rabies before? Dewey is due for his 3 yr. in November, and I have a concern about this as well. My other three have all had the three yr. rabies and did fine. They had the regular rabies shot I didn't know if it was thimerosal free at the time.


Snowball is seven and a half ... he will be eight years old February 19th.

Snowball did not have any immediate reactions to his past rabies vaccines. However, now we are questioning whether his fear aggression and immune system issues have been the cause of his second rabies vaccination ... we have learned that these are only two of many, many issues that can develop well after the rabies vaccine has been given.



puppydoll said:


> I hope Snowball is doing better....
> Deborah, I was wondering the same thing about how old Snowball is jand has he had any previous rabies vaccines and any reactions with those.


Thank you. See my above comment to Deborah's question. 

We are taking Snowball outside this afternoon for the first time since Tuesday. We had been advised to keep him inside until today. I think this will be a big test to see how he reacts. He was doing so well after just having gone through so much training to help him feel more comfortable around strangers. However, right after the rabies injection ... he growled and tried to jump up at every staff member that passed by or tried to talk to him ... THAT was scary because he NEVER did that before with ANY staff member. After he threw up, then he stopped doing that. I do know that if ANY dog is sick, they can growl, etc. around people ... even people who are not strangers to them. Snowball has been so sedated with the Benydryl that I am not sure if he is okay now. He is eating well ... but, again, he has not been outside since his adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine that he had on Tuesday ... less than 48 hours ago. It's too soon to be sure he is really okay.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Thimerosal is a preservative (mercury) and there are also adjuvants that might cause reactions besides the Thimerosal. There can also be a reaction to the vaccine itself. So technically there are at the minimum 3 things that can cause the reaction.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

edelweiss said:


> Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Thimerosal is a preservative (mercury) and there are also adjuvants that might cause reactions besides the Thimerosal. There can also be a reaction to the vaccine itself. So technically there are at the minimum 3 things that can cause the reaction.


I think you are correct, Sandi.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Let's think positive that all of Snowball's training and your hard work will not have been done in vain Marie.  Snowball's reactivity at the vets can certainly be attributed to his not feeling well at all in a place that causes him stress and with people he does not really know and trust.

If you're sure it's the correct time to take him out, then take him to a place today that he really loves and enjoys. Do not try to encourage him to interact with people or other animals as of yet. Just calmly walk the other way before there can be any type of reaction, good or bad, to a person or dog that may be approaching. Keep his first time outside a happy, fun and good experience. He's still probably feeling not 100% himself yet and that can make him feel vulnerable.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Thimerosal is a preservative (mercury) and there are also adjuvants that might cause reactions besides the Thimerosal. There can also be a reaction to the vaccine itself. So technically there are at the minimum 3 things that can cause the reaction.


Thimerosal is an adjuvant that contains mercury, but is not mercury itself. The adjuvants have been used since the rabies vaccine went from the modified live vaccine to a killed vaccine to ensure its effectiveness back in the 70's or 80's if my memory is correct. Mercury is used as a preservative in the adjuvant Thimerosal. So yes, a patient can have a reaction to the actual antigen or any of the adjuvants or more specifically, anything in those adjuvants. However since there is so much linked specifically to mercury in both animals and humans, getting the thimerosal free vaccine is considered a lower risk. But any person or dog can have a reaction to anything in any vaccine. And not to you specifically Sandi, but to anyone reading this thread, an unhealthy dog should never, under any circumstances be given a vaccine. I put a link in my original post in this thread on page one that goes into detail what constitutes an unhealthy dog. I really think many people will be shocked that they actually have a dog that would be considered unhealthy and should not be given a vaccine.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

mss said:


> I have a sickly old dog that probably will not be getting another rabies vaccine. It probably would not be in her best interest. And a person can always refuse to have their dog vaccinated in any case.
> 
> The problem with the term "waiver" is it makes me think of the waiver of the state or local law requiring vaccination. And in California, at least, it sounds a lot stricter: "would endanger the dog's life ...." And it sounds like all it does is prevent you from getting fined for not having your dog vaccinated. The dog is treated as unvaccinated and has to be on a leash (and maybe confined to your home if the local authorities require that). See California health and Safety Code, section 121690. Law section.
> 
> I would guess that groomers, doggie daycares and boarding kennels would not have to accept you. I guess me and my old dog won't be going anywhere!


This really brings up a good point. Since the state I live in does not have a medical waiver, I've not really looked into this. And since the medical waivers are decided upon by each individual state, I'm guessing they're all a bit different. My guess would be a medical waiver would mean that the owner won't be fined for not having their dog or cat up to date on vaccines. But if the dog bit someone and it was reported, would still have to go through the state protocol to determine if the dog was infected with rabies. And sadly, a lot of vets in my area will refuse to treat a dog or cat that is not up to date on their vaccines. So it would help in those cases. But I don't believe it's a full pass and making the dog appear in the eyes of the law or any establishment requiring current vaccines that the dog is current.

My Zoe will be 10 in January. She has Cushings. She will never get another vaccine and no vet with integrity and believes in their oath to do no harm would ever suggest it. Jett is 7. He had some blindness that became noticeable in November of 2011. He struggled with his vision for over a year. At first it was suspected PRA. But that wasn't it. Then they thought perhaps a form of IMR. A friend of mine has a Maltese who all of a sudden went completely blind and the ophthalmologist was thinking IMR. She asked me what I had done for Jett because his vision has returned in the past 6 months. He still doesn't see great in low light, but otherwise he sees just fine. I told her I had put him on my Immunity Blend which is a blend of mushrooms that have had some very promising results in dogs with cancer. (At that point we were even thinking Jett could possibly have a brain tumor.) And I started to add coconut oil to his diet at the same time. So in speaking to our holistic vet (we see the same one) he said it certainly couldn't hurt to boost the immune system and put her Malt on something stronger then what I have at the store. And her vision returned in a matter of a few weeks. So with this in mind, Jett will no longer be getting any more vaccines. And my vet is ok with this. She made sure I understood the law of course, but said she would do the same if he were her dog. Now with Callie, she has developed Leaky Gut with allergy type itchyness on her chin from an inappropriately prescribed antibiotic. And according to the article on what constitutes a healthy dog, she should also no longer get any vaccines. So we're done with them for my crew.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

I am running late for my PT appointment ... but, just received a message on my FB page from Jan Rasmusen ... asking how she can help. I will be contacting her, for sure!

For those on FB ... please read Jan's responses.

More later ...


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

NY State does have the waiver... I had looked into it when I had Missy. Her last rabies was given to her at 7 yrs old. Between 7-10 years she developed diabetes, bladder cancer and dealt with various allergies/infections and heart issues. Waiver or no waiver we were NOT going to give the one due at 10 years old...but wanted to check it out for my own information. 

As I understood, it allowed me to be current on her license ( as proof of rabies is required) . To get rabies waiver, a certification from vet was needed stating the reason why it would be a danger to give.( health issue) . However, I do believe if there was any incident such as she bit someone...or was bitten by an possibly rabid animal.... the waiver doesn't do much as far as responsibility is concerned. These vet certifications have to be re-done every year. Basically only allows you to get license and avoid fines.

*TITER:*
I DID have a titer done because I wanted to know her level. 
There was another mid size dog having tier done the same day as well.

When results came back I was shocked. 
The ratio of adequate coverge is 1:5
I was told the other mid size dog came back at 1: 300something ( though I don't know how many previous vaccined he had done.

Missy's came back at 1:1000!! 
That was having initial.. one at 1 year/4yrs/one at 7 yrs. 

BTW.. I was told the titers don't give you any real legal edge either in event of an 'incident'. However I can't help but think it might 'soften' things.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Maidto2Maltese said:


> NY State does have the waiver... I had looked into it when I had Missy. Her last rabies was given to her at 7 yrs old. Between 7-10 years she developed diabetes, bladder cancer and dealt with various allergies/infections and heart issues. Waiver or no waiver we were NOT going to give the one due at 10 years old...but wanted to check it out for my own information.
> 
> As I understood, it allowed me to be current on her license ( as proof of rabies is required) . To get rabies waiver, a certification from vet was needed stating the reason why it would be a danger to give.( health issue) . However, I do believe if there was any incident such as she bit someone...or was bitten by an possibly rabid animal.... the waiver doesn't do much as far as responsibility is concerned. These vet certifications have to be re-done every year. Basically only allows you to get license and avoid fines.
> 
> ...


Wow...those numbers are amazing. The rabies titer won't give ANY legal edge. In fact, there isn't an accepted rabies titer as of yet. But that is what Dr. Jean Dodds is working on now in light of the results of her 5 year study. I hope it's soon and not something that will take another few years to get.


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## N2Mischief (Aug 18, 2013)

I just want to ad that a reaction to the vaccine can show up months later. My chihuahua Emilio had Rabies Vaccine Induced Vasculitis. 2 months after the vaccine his ear pinnae scabbed up and chunks of his ears started coming off. He was but on medication and it cleared up and thankfully never came back. 

Now Misha is showing signs of the same reaction. He ears aren't scabby, but the tips of her pinnae are thickened and they itch horribly. 

I will be taking my hypothyroid cat back to Dr. Dodds for another blood test in another 2 weeks and I will bring Misha too. I am hoping she can treat a dog with MVD.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> We phoned Pfizer to inquire if their rabies vaccine was thimerosal free ... since it DOES NOT include thimerrosal on the label. Believe it or not, it is NOT thimerosal free! They do not include the thimerosal on the label ... so, now how does one trust labels anymore?!
> 
> Snowball's vet office uses the Pfizer. We had to ask for the Merial ... IMRAB 3 TF for Snowball. (and, he still had an adverse reaction!). We were told by the vet in Leesburg that they have only been using the Merial TF for ferrets ... I guess because it is the law for ferrets. Go figure ...


yes go figure. I did not ask for the thimerosal free.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Whether or not the dog needs continued meds depends on the individual situation. Soda actually had to be given epinephrine and emergency treatment as he collapsed. Needless to say he got steroids for a while after. He had major issues with his neurological condition after due to the stress on his body and his immune system overreacting. That was about 6 years ago. He's older and has a collapsing trachea and glaucoma, but is otherwise a bouncing ball of energy! No vaccines for him though. Your locality in VA is fine with a waiver from your vet. I also do a rabies titer on Soda about every 3 years mostly for my curiosity. His last one was still good enough to export to Hawaii!


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

jmm said:


> Whether or not the dog needs continued meds depends on the individual situation. Soda actually had to be given epinephrine and emergency treatment as he collapsed. Needless to say he got steroids for a while after. He had major issues with his neurological condition after due to the stress on his body and his immune system overreacting. That was about 6 years ago. He's older and has a collapsing trachea and glaucoma, but is otherwise a bouncing ball of energy! No vaccines for him though. Your locality in VA is fine with a waiver from your vet. I also do a rabies titer on Soda about every 3 years mostly for my curiosity. His last one was still good enough to export to Hawaii!


The other thing is that Snowball was supposed to have his dental cleaning in a couple of weeks. I don't think that's a good idea now.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Marie, you know all about Lisi's history w/anaphylactic reactions (we had one allergic reaction to distemper, one anaphylactic reaction to Lepto & one anaphylactic reaction to rabies). This is, of course, overseas so no reports/complaints were made to the companies involved. The vet did advise not to have any more vaccines---and we have not had any. She did not get her one year boosters. I have not had her titered. She is presently due for her rabies shot in early Nov. She has to have proof in her international passport each year for the rabies or she can't fly. I won't go into any detail (pleading the 5th ammendment) about how I plan to handle that one, but I do have a plan.


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## ckanen2n (Jan 2, 2012)

edelweiss said:


> ... I won't go into any detail (pleading the 5th ammendment) about how I plan to handle that one, but I do have a plan.


Aha! Sandi, I like how you think! I can only guess...Good luck! :thumbsup:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> The other thing is that Snowball was supposed to have his dental cleaning in a couple of weeks. I don't think that's a good idea now.


Marie that is a really hard one to know. You need to ensure that Snowball is healthy enough to go under a general. But if there is any type of infection going on, you also don't want to delay a dental more than absolutely necessary. Why not ask Dr. Crisse what her thoughts are? I would make sure Snowball has gone through the detox protocol and back to his normal self first. And I would even ask her about a detox for after the dental. Perhaps since you are doing the Thuja now, after the dental doing more of a dandelion/milk thistle detox would be the route to go.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Marie that is a really hard one to know. You need to ensure that Snowball is healthy enough to go under a general. But if there is any type of infection going on, you also don't want to delay a dental more than absolutely necessary. Why not ask Dr. Crisse what her thoughts are? I would make sure Snowball has gone through the detox protocol and back to his normal self first. And I would even ask her about a detox for after the dental. Perhaps since you are doing the Thuja now, after the dental doing more of a dandelion/milk thistle detox would be the route to go.


Yes, you are right ... I am going to ask Krisi what she thinks. I might even ask her, when his actual dental is schedueled, to be there with us at the hospital. She can even be in the operating room. I would feel better about that at this point.

And, I will ask her about the dandelion/ milk thistle detox. 

I don't want to delay his dental much longer ... but, I also, like you said, need to make sure Snowball is back to his normal self again.

Crystal, thank you, again, for all your help. I still cannot believe how you were there for us through the whole ride to the vet hospital. I remember kind of raising my voice to Felix when he was driving too close to cars in front of us. He was a wreck worrying about Snowball ... and, I was a wreck worrying about Snowball ... and, having a car wreck! You kept us as calm as was humanly possible ... even though I had to fight back tears and try and stay calm for Snowball. That was SO HARD to do ... so, I will never be able to thank you enough. The same with Kerry ... bless her heart, she was calling from her job to check on us ... not realizing at first we were in the car with Snowball taking him back to the hospital. 

I love you, Crystal.:heart::smootch:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I would probably wait a couple months for the body to totally recover before anesthesia UNLESS his mouth is really rotten.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Marie brush his teeth everyday with Petzlife for now until he will be fine for anesthesia. I thought Charlie might need another cleaning but then I started brushing his teeth more often and even tho I did not do it every day they look a lot better and he will not need a cleaning yet.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

jmm said:


> I would probably wait a couple months for the body to totally recover before anesthesia UNLESS his mouth is really rotten.


Wow ... LOL. No, Snowball's mouth is not full of rotten teeth. They better not be! And, every time he has gone in for a check-up, which believe me, has been quite often ... his teeth are checked, too. 

He has them cleaned every single day.

However, there is one molar in the very back of his mouth that is showing signs of gingivitis. : (. So, with that, of course, we want to have the dental done as soon as it is safely possible for him. He was supposed to have the dental in a couple of weeks. But, then after the adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine ... and, then tonight after his having a very loose BM ... I don't know. We just took him off the Benydryl for the first time today ... but, just a few minutes ago, he started scratching his eyes again ... so, back on the Benydryl, at least for tonight.

As I posted previously ... I have seen other Malt's whose Mom's I know have brushed their fluff's teeth regularly on a daily basis ... and, yet, during a dental cleaning, their fluffs lost several teeth. I think because there was a problem under the gum line ... and, that is my concern with Snowball.

One thing I do think we have been doing wrong is giving him his favorite treat after his teeth are cleaned. Although I usually brush my teeth three times a day ... and, always got rave reviews from my dentist on check-up ... there was one time that she found a little plaque on my teeth. I was so surprised. She asked me if I happened to be eating more protein than usual. I was ... I was on an Atkin's type kind of diet at the time. She said too much protein can cause plaque build-up.

So, even though Snowball was having one organic lamb liver treat (the size of a sugar cube) after his teeth cleaning (because he didn't like the tooth cleaning part) I realize it has not been the brightest thing to do after just cleaning his teeth!

Anyway, thank you, Jackie, for your feedback. It, as always, is much appreciated..



MalteseJane said:


> Marie brush his teeth everyday with Petzlife for now until he will be fine for anesthesia. I thought Charlie might need another cleaning but then I started brushing his teeth more often and even tho I did not do it every day they look a lot better and he will not need a cleaning yet.


Thank you, Janine. I will check on the Petzlife.


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