# I'm really worried about what's happening in the Middle East.



## waistfull (Jan 8, 2006)

It seems as though something like this was inevitable, but the possibility of war if frightening to me. I'm not intending this to be a political debate, only of people who are worried and do not want war. I have been following the Iraq war and the missiles in N. Korea. I pray for peace.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I pray for peace to, but Israel has every right to defend itself. They were attacked by Hezbollah, they kidnapped two soldiers and entered Israel territory..Granted Israel is going nuts on them, but they are sick of fighting for there survival. The agreement in 2000 was Israel's withdrawal of Lebanon and the goverement was supposed to shut Hezbollah down, and of course they did not do that. I am sorry to say there will never be peace in the middle/east, yes we can pray for it, but I just don't think it's possible.The Palestines ask why do we only feel bad for Israel and not them, well I used to really feel bad for the Palestines, but the way they kill innocent people with those homocide bombers, I just don't feel for them anymore. My god teaches that a martyr is someone who dies for a cause, but does not take others with them.. The majority of Muslims do not practice radical Islam so you can't judge all> But these radicals are making even moderate muslims look bad. This also was the first time ever that even Saudi-Arabia said Hezbollah had no right to do this and they started this problem, wow that says alot in my book. I know the palestine's have a right to their freedom and the way their land was taken away is not fair, but Israel is not going anywhere , so why not make a deal and live in peace so your children can have a future.I just don't know why they can't have peace in the middle/east, I hope in my life/time I see it..

Thanks,
Andrea~

What also changed my mind was September 11, when I saw all of Palestine dancing in the streets, when we lost almost 3,000 souls..It literally made me vomit...


----------



## Luvmypupster (Jul 12, 2003)

I understand your concerns and fears. The political unrest and violence really seems to be escalating throughout the world, or maybe we're just more aware of it. Both regions have been hot beds for years and year... just ready to cook off at any moment. When 9-11 happened not only did I cry for the loss our nation suffered I cried because as I watched those planes hit, I knew we were going to war. Having a son in the Army, it was my worst nightmare come true. I always understood with him being in the military that going to war some day was a possibility. I guess you are never prepared for war affecting your own family. I now have 2 active Army sons.. I watch the news constantly.. our world is a very scary place and I too pray for peace for everyone.


----------



## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

> I pray for peace to, but Israel has every right to defend itself. They were attacked by Hezbollah, they kidnapped two soldiers and entered Israel territory..Granted Israel is going nuts on them, but they are sick of fighting for there survival. The agreement in 2000 was Israel's withdrawal of Lebanon and the goverement was supposed to shut Hezbollah down, and of course they did not do that. I am sorry to say there will never be peace in the middle/east, yes we can pray for it, but I just don't think it's possible.The Palestines ask why do we only feel bad for Israel and not them, well I used to really feel bad for the Palestines, but the way they kill innocent people with those homocide bombers, I just don't feel for them anymore. My god teaches that a martyr is someone who dies for a cause, but does not take others with them.. The majority of Muslims do not practice radical Islam so you can't judge all> But these radicals are making even moderate muslims look bad. This also was the first time ever that even Saudi-Arabia said Hezbollah had no right to do this and they started this problem, wow that says alot in my book. I know the palestine's have a right to their freedom and the way their land was taken away is not fair, but Israel is not going anywhere , so why not make a deal and live in peace so your children can have a future.I just don't know why they can't have peace in the middle/east, I hope in my life/time I see it..
> 
> Thanks,
> Andrea~
> ...


Well said Andrea









I pray for peace in this world but doubtfull it will happen







We do not have a perfect world & peace needs a perfect world. It wont happen in our lifetime


----------



## Lizzie (Jan 26, 2006)

I agree, the violence around the world and especially in the middle east is terrifying. I understand how it effects family members of our military and pray for you, since I'm still on a high from having my oldest son so recently home from Iraq.

I tend to be a tad distrustful of our media though. We, as the average American public are subjected to what the news channels want to show us and how they want to spin it. I have to remind myself that most of this coverage is given to us by people that are trained to emphasize their voices to impart certain emotions. The "alerts", the music used, and the tone of the reporters are all adding to our sense of the sky is falling. The middle east has had eruptions of violence since I have been old enough to make sense of the news. I tend to deal with it by praying that our nation's leaders react to such issues in a responsible manner. It's the only way I can sleep at night.


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

I am glad you started this thread. My husband and I have always prayed for the Middle East as well as our church. But now it's even more personal to us because of the war in Israel. John's sister (my sister-in-law) and her family moved to Israel just last month and we received an email from them the other day saying they are doing well but everyone needs prayer. They are in Nazareth and they fear Nazareth will be bombed next. They told us of other families that have been killed and houses destroyed and families living in shelters because of it. Yet in the next breath they say how their daughter will be going to school in Nazareth on September 1st. My niece is only 5 years old! I am scared for all of them and wish they would just come back to the US. They chose the worst time to move to Israel. We tried to talk them out of moving there because of the suicide bombers that have always been there, Israel is always under attack. They went anyway and not just weeks after they get there they are at war. Israel doesn't have as big of any army as we the US have so I fear for their safety. 

They set aside just enough money to fly back to the US when they decide to move back here but they didn't plan on doing that till my niece was older and had alot of schooling in. It's hard enough going to school with the language barrier for her but now on top of that she has to worry about a bomb hitting her school or home. She's too young to live like that. My sister-in-law is the only one in the family that doesn't have citizenship there (her husband does because he was born there and their daughter does because of her father) and now with the war they have put a halt to all citizenship requests and without citizenship she can't get a job and without a job they are going to end up spending the money they have set aside for plane tickets and I fear we will never see them again. Her husband wasn't working in the US because of an injury that they didn't get a great settlement on (and even that took years to get). Since he couldn't work in the US I don't think he will be able to work in Israel either so the bread winning falls on my sister-in-law who can't get a job without her citizenship. 

Please pray for their safety, her citizenship, a job, and most of all their safe return to the US if they decide to come back. I pray that we can talk them into coming back. I pray that they realize what a huge mistake it was and just come home. I pray that if they do decide to come back to the US that they are aloud to fly out of there. Who knows if they are even allowing flights out of Israel.


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

Oh Jodi, i am so sorry. I will be praying for them, i hope they can get out of there soon.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> I pray for peace to, but Israel has every right to defend itself. They were attacked by Hezbollah, they kidnapped two soldiers and entered Israel territory..Granted Israel is going nuts on them, but they are sick of fighting for there survival. The agreement in 2000 was Israel's withdrawal of Lebanon and the goverement was supposed to shut Hezbollah down, and of course they did not do that. I am sorry to say there will never be peace in the middle/east, yes we can pray for it, but I just don't think it's possible.The Palestines ask why do we only feel bad for Israel and not them, well I used to really feel bad for the Palestines, but the way they kill innocent people with those homocide bombers, I just don't feel for them anymore. My god teaches that a martyr is someone who dies for a cause, but does not take others with them.. The majority of Muslims do not practice radical Islam so you can't judge all> But these radicals are making even moderate muslims look bad. This also was the first time ever that even Saudi-Arabia said Hezbollah had no right to do this and they started this problem, wow that says alot in my book. I know the palestine's have a right to their freedom and the way their land was taken away is not fair, but Israel is not going anywhere , so why not make a deal and live in peace so your children can have a future.I just don't know why they can't have peace in the middle/east, I hope in my life/time I see it..
> 
> Thanks,
> Andrea~
> ...


That whole Middle East region is a frightening time bomb. There are so many factions opposing each other's territories and beliefs, I don't think there will ever be total "peace". I need to make an effort to keep their names straight. For instances--who exactly is Hezbollah? There's Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria?, and Jordan--where does Hezbollah come in? I'm assuming they are a who, not a where.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=223440
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hezbollah are Lebanese terrorists, although alot of the people in the middle/east consider them "Freedom Fighters", They have also set up schools, hospitals and their own televison station in Lebanon. The problem is the Lebanese goverment can't or wont stop this group. Their army is not strong enough to stop Hezbollah and not only that , alot of people in the country and even in the army support this Hezbollah, so if the goverment of Lebanon was to try and fight Hezbollah, a civil war may break out, cause some of the people are for them and some are not. The point is they started this problem with Israel they kidnapped 2 soldiers and also fired rockets into Israel, that is why Israel is doing what it is doing. If Israel can't live in peace then Hezbollah will not either.. No matter how you look at it Hezbollah are terrorists..In my opinion..

Thanks,
Andrea~


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> Oh Jodi, i am so sorry. I will be praying for them, i hope they can get out of there soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...










Jodi, I can't imagine the stress and worry you must feel! I will keep them in my thoughts and prayers!


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=223540
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good explanation. Thank you Andrea.


----------



## waistfull (Jan 8, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=223521
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will keep them in my prayers too. I pray for all of our troops. My cousing just joined the marines and I am praying that he will not be in harms way. 
My husband watches the news every evening when he gets home from work and my daughter watches too. She asks what all of it means and it's hard for me to explain and she asks why??? I just tell her that to pray for peace. Thank you all for the posts, I know I'm not alone with my feelings.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Jodi I will pray for your family. I am so sorry, you are feeling bad
you are in my thoughts.

Andrea~


----------



## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

I hate talking about wars and these kind of stuff (((((Makes me sick to death)))))

I am not an expert, but this is what I think:

I believe that any war affects human lives in a negative way. So, why don’t we “US” as human beings live peacefully in this earth?????? 

These wars are caused by politicians –only few people or groups; they are countable-. Two groups have a conflict, but they turn it to a whole nation. Innocent kids, women, old people and men are being killed from both sides, even though they have nothing to do with it












> I tend to be a tad distrustful of our media though. We, as the average American public are subjected to what the news channels want to show us and how they want to spin it.[/B]


I think that the media plays a VERY important role in controling our judgements. 

Some of you might not know, but I am from Dubai -located in the middle east-. When Sep 11 happened, NO ONE was happy seeing many people dying. We also didn't see in the media anything which showed the Palestinian people happy, laughing, dancing or whatever you call it.

I've seen an interesting decumantry about this "MEDIA" thing. In particular, US Media -cnn- and Arab Media -al jazeera- in Iraq, and GOD you wont believe it; each one of them is showing the part that suits them best. BOTH medias. You never know the real complete truth from the media.

I don't believe everything I see in the Media.

Being a local citizen in my "peaceful" city, Dubai, is giving me the opportunity to meet people from different places. I know many Palastainians who don't like wars and who don't get cheered up by seeing innocent people (Americans or even from Israel) die for no reason. I also know LOTS of people (Americans, Europeans....ec) who don't like that as well <----you guys are one of them









Things that katkoota thinks about:

1. I don't say that all the humans are "angels", and that we are living in a peaceful place. 

2. I don't even say that all Muslims are EVILS. 
I am a Muslim (some of you might go







or who knows, some might hate me), but trust me, some people are only using "Islam" as a name <---- they know nothing about this religion or are using it in a wrong way!! Muslims shouldn't kill innocent people!!! Not all Muslims hate Americans or any other nation. Now look at me, I know that almost all of the members here are not Muslims, but did I care? did I bother? or hate? I don't think so. I love all SM members and i am addicted to this place and enjoy my time here.
I get really upset when people think that Muslims are bad, terrorist, killers, have no hearts...bla bla bla (because of few people's -who claim to be Muslims- mistakes). 

3. I also don't say that other nations (other than Muslim nations) are angels.

I really really hope that people will STOP these crazy wars. FannyMay, I hope that your relatives get back safely. I know how you feel since I have many friends -who studied in school with me- who are there in Lebanon. It is just awful. Now, your relatives have nothing to do with this war; my friends have nothing to do with it as well. It is not their fault.

I am not a "war" talking person (((((HATE ALL WARS)))))

and hope that one day, everyone will live peacefully....

Thanks for listening.

~kat


----------



## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

> I hate talking about wars and these kind of stuff (((((Makes me sick to death)))))
> 
> I am not an expert, but this is what I think:
> 
> ...












as John Lennon said "Imagine"


----------



## KimKarr (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks for the post, Kat. Your philosophy and mine are very closely aligned. I think SM is a great example of how people need to (and can) view each other simply as human beings – not put them into a box based solely on their race, religion, ethnicity or any other judgmental “one size fits all” description.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I think it is so great how civil we are being on a potentially volitile topic.










[attachment=9726:attachment]


----------



## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

> Thanks for the post, Kat. Your philosophy and mine are very closely aligned. I think SM is a great example of how people need to (and can) view each other simply as human beings – not put them into a box based solely on their race, religion, ethnicity or any other judgmental “one size fits all” description.[/B]


You got what I mean


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Hi,
First let me make myself clear here, I never said all muslims are terrorists, I said the majority do not practice radical Islam, therfore I would never judge you or any other here, I am talking about radicals who have hijacked Islam and turned into something the Prophet Muhammed would have never ever preached. He actually held women in great regard and had extreme respect for them. These radicals have made up their own interpretation of Islam. The prophet always stressed the importance of peace not Jihad, he always extended the olive branch to every religion and taught the importance of tolerance to all who is different from your/self. So no I do not hate anyone Muslim or not Muslim. Any educated person knows Islam is not a religion of hate it is about peace, but to people who do not know and see these radicals it is hard for them to distinguish the difference between the two. I really hope I did not offend you. I was really just stating my opinion. And as far as the Palestinians yes they were dancing in the street it was not a trick camera, it was displayed by them in plain site for everyone to see, again not all of the Palestinian population ,but enough..

Thanks,
Andrea~


----------



## journey (Feb 8, 2006)

I almost don't know what to say. Except that I remember being frightened out of my mind on 9/11. I thought my loved ones were in danger and I didn't know when or how it would end. My husband, two sons and my son in law were all in NYC and I was scared to death for them. Each of them has a unique story about that day and I haven't gotten over it yet. Phones went down and OMG.....

(and the Palestinians danced in the streets (edited)


----------



## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

> Hi,
> First let me make myelf clear here, I never said all muslims are terrorists, I said the majority do not practice radical Islam, therfore I would never judge you or any other here, I am talking about radicals who have hijacked Islam and turned into something the Prophet Muhammed would have never ever preached. He actually held women in great regard and had extreme respect for them. These radicals have made up their own interpretation of Islam. The prophet always stressed the importance of peace not Jihad, he always extended the olive branch to every religion and taught the importance of tolerance to all who is different from your/self. So no I do not hate anyone Muslim or not Muslim. Any educated person knows Islam is not a religion of hate it is about peace, but to people who do not know and see these radicals it is hard for them to distinguish the difference between the two. I really hope I did not offend you. I was really just stating my opinion. And as far as the Palestinians yes they were dancing in the street it was not a trick camera, it was displayed by them in plain site for everyone to see, again not all of the Palestinian population ,but enough..
> 
> Thanks,
> Andrea~[/B]


WOW








I am really amazed of your knowledge about few of Islams facts







The real peaceful ones.

I was not offended by you at all. When I said that people say Muslims are terrorists, I meant people in general -not in SM- Let me give you the example that was in my mind when I said that. Dubai buying the P&O ports from a British company. The point here has nothing to do with details or what happened, only with what people felt at that time. They needed to protect their National Security. I mean the idea of Muslims being terrorests is in many people's minds. 

I don't blame these people if they didn't have the knowledge and were not educated like you and many others. If I put myself in their position, I believe that I will think just like them.

and when I pointed about some Palestainians not being happy, just wanted to clear that not all of them are bad.

When I pointed out about me not seeing on TV Palastainian dancing ---> Media plays a big role.

I am really happy to meet lots of educated understanding people in my life, and Andrea I think that you are one of them along with many many others


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=223704
> 
> 
> 
> ...

















Thank the lord.. I was getting scared there for a minute..I thought you thought I was a racist...







Had me worried there for a minute.. Thank you for understanding what I was saying. I respect Islam and I would never ever judge you or any other...

Andrea~


----------



## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

> Thank the lord.. I was getting scared there for a minute
> Andrea~[/B]


----------



## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I live in a rather "semi- rural" area that is quickly growing ( only 75 miles north of NYC) . I am thankful that I was brought up to judge people by their character and not their ethnic/religious background. I take people for who they are. 
I happened to be Irish Catholic. I grew up with/played with/ and developed friendships with many people totally different from me . ( many diffferent religions, no religion, and various ethnic origins. "What" they were never seemed to be a point of interest... ..it was 'who" they were. 
Do I like everyone?...of course not... but those I don't like is because of a particular reason not due to a generalization. I tend to automatically think positive of an individual, assume they are an overall "good person", unless they somehow 'prove me wrong".
I credit my Mom for this outlook. I can't say she "taught" me.. it was simply her way of life and I learned by her example. To me it was simply natural. Which actually brings me to my point... most prejudice, hatred, etc ( or the opposite thereof) is ingrained into the children by their parents. As long as generation after generation is taught to hate for the sake of it... peace will be allusive I'm afraid.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I think it is so cool that there are people from all over the globe and many ethnicities here at SM!







Kat is Dubai your birth place? From the way you speak I would have guessed you were in USA...


----------



## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

> I think it is so cool that there are people from all over the globe and many ethnicities here at SM!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, Dubai is my birth place


----------



## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

> I live in a rather "semi- rural" area that is quickly growing ( only 75 miles north of NYC) . I am thankful that I was brought up to judge people by their character and not their ethnic/religious background. I take people for who they are.
> I happened to be Irish Catholic. I grew up with/played with/ and developed friendships with many people totally different from me . ( many diffferent religions, no religion, and various ethnic origins. "What" they were never seemed to be a point of interest... ..it was 'who" they were.
> Do I like everyone?...of course not... but those I don't like is because of a particular reason not due to a generalization. I tend to automatically think positive of an individual, assume they are an overall "good person", unless they somehow 'prove me wrong".
> I credit my Mom for this outlook. I can't say she "taught" me.. it was simply her way of life and I learned by her example. To me it was simply natural. Which actually brings me to my point... most prejudice, hatred, etc ( or the opposite thereof) is ingrained into the children by their parents. As long as generation after generation is taught to hate for the sake of it... peace will be allusive I'm afraid.[/B]


Very well said!! I, like you, was brought up to accept people for who they are and what they have inside and not what they are. This is the exact way that I have brought up my son and at 23 he is a well rounded man with friends of all nationalities and religions. I was brought up as a Catholic (went to Catholic school for 8 years) and also Pagan. At 12 I chose to be Pagan and have been ever since, my son is also Pagan, his choice.

It is common mis-understandings and lack of knowledge that causes riffs between people but for the most part all is well but I do run into a few people who, because of their lack of information and because they are so TV oriented, they think that I worship the devil, which is so far off of base it isn't funny. I believe in God just like everyone else and anyone who knows me knows that I am a good person. I also try to find the goodness in people and feel that kindness should be everybody's top priority.

Sorry, got off base here, but I don't see peace anytime soon and that is heartbreaking. If we could just take our little SM family and put it on the outside and show people how to get along what a wonderful world this would be.

Marie & Pacino


----------



## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

The UK is evacuating all British Citizens out of Lebanon


----------



## mwend (Dec 27, 2005)

Scary time for my son to be in the military. But then I guess it always is a scary time for that because there is always something going on!!

Peace and blessings to you all!!


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=223781
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Marie, I hope you do not think I am prying into your lifestyle, but I am curious about something. Having grown up in church and raised my children the same way, we always hear the word Pagan, in reference to something being a "pagan holiday". I always assumed it just meant "worldy" or of the world and not of a Christian nature. You said you are now Pagan, and I was wondering what it really does mean. I truly am not being flip or anything, I just want to understand what it really means, as I may have been wrong concerning the definition for all of these years...


----------



## MissMelanie (Feb 13, 2006)

*BRAVO Andrea. I love you even more.

Katkoota, I can't tell you how sorry I am that you are surprised about Andrea's knowledge. For years now we have been show on TV that there are terrorists of all sorts. True, some would only take the TV news' word for how everyone is. However there are others, many others that find out the truth on their own.

There are many of us, that have had eye opening events happen that SEEM to involve Muslims and from there all we wanted to do was learn more about Muslims, REAL Muslims and then understand how or why those involved in terror could claim to be Muslims. To this date I still don't get it, and am of the mind that perhaps I never will understand WHY some wish to distort a religon. Warped minds I guess.

Since 1986 a very wonderful and close friend of mine had been teaching me about her "peaceful" religion and her Prophet Muhammed. Thankfully she is so sharing and kind. So imagine my shock when on 9-11 so many of the "muslims" that were involved, seemed to have lived around me in South Florida. Wait, was that one the cab driver I had the whole time I was in rehap after my accident? YES HE SURE WAS! And he was just as nice a person that I could have thought.

In November of 1979 when hostages were taken in Iran that was also religous in nature, but WHO's religion? Not Prophet Mohammed's.

My ex-husband was in the Navy and in 1983 was in Beruit when some very "kind" people blew up the Marine barricks there. 283 souls gone, poof but his sorry soul was saved. I do not ask why. I am just glad he got clean up detail. Perhaps that helped him some in his views of life, perhaps.

In October of 2000 when the USS Cole was bombed that too was by whom? Not any Muslim I know.


The things going on today, have been simmering for years... there is just no peaceful way out I fear. No real great answer for everyone. And as bad as this is going to sound, SHAME on the men for letting it get to this point. Yes, MEN.

There is a song I love... Higher by Scott Stapp of Creed... listen carefully and you may agree it's a good song.

* *Higher* * When dreaming I'm guided through another world
Time and time again
At sunrise I fight to stay asleep
'Cause I don't want to leave the comfort of this place
'Cause there's a hunger, a longing to escape
From the life I live when I'm awake
So let's go there
Let's make our escape
Come on, let's go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Can you take me higher?
To the place where blind men see
Can you take me higher?
To the place with golden streets
 Although I would like our world to change
It helps me to appreciate
Those nights and those dreams
But, my friend, I'd sacrifice all those nights
If I could make the Earth and my dreams the same
The only difference is
 To let love replace all our hate
So let's go there
Let's make our escape
Come on, let's go there
Let's ask can we stay?
Up high I feel like I'm alive for the very first time
Up high I'm strong enough to take these dreams
And make them mine

I wish everyone peace in their lives and hearts.

Melanie

*


> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=223704
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

I just wanted to update everyone on my sister-in-law. She and her family are living in Nazareth and we got an email from her this morning. Elizabeth is my niece. 

"We just had 3 rockets hit Nazareth. i never in my life heard such loud sounds- 2 hours later and myear still hurts."

"They told the tourist, Americans to leave. It shakes you up it destroy the center of nazareth Elizabeth was scared- everybody was scared- i said let's pray. It's only 2 minutes away from us. It's distroying Nazareth and all of Northern Israel."

She doesn't plan on coming back to the US and it makes me mad. If she feels she needs to be there then she needs to at least send her 5 year old daughter back to the US. It's just no fair to her if you ask me. My sister-in-law and her husband are adults and can make their own decisions but my niece can not. Please keep them all in your thoughts and prayers.


----------



## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

> I just wanted to update everyone on my sister-in-law. She and her family are living in Nazareth and we got an email from her this morning. Elizabeth is my niece.
> 
> "We just had 3 rockets hit Nazareth. i never in my life heard such loud sounds- 2 hours later and myear still hurts."
> 
> ...


I will keep them in my prayers & i hope she decides to leave very soon.

All the Brits are being evacuated.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Things are really getting crazy there, I feel bad for all the innocent people on both sides..
I will say a prayer for your family and I hope they send the little one back to the U.S.

Andrea~


----------



## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

I hope the best for them but it`s understandable for you to be worried sick, i would be too. This is not a game, it`s war, it`s terrible and won`t differenciate between good and bad people, or between adults and children. I will be praying for them, i hope they reconsider and go back to the US.


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

Thanks everyone for your concern for my family, and thank you for all the prayers. 

Every other country evacuated sooner than the US did and they did it all for free. The US is making everyone pay for their own way back to the US. Now I know my family had money set aside to come home but now with the war and no work they might have spent some of it already. John got another email from his sister and she was talking about how much she loved it there, she doesn't plan on coming back. If I even mentioned they should send their daughter to live here they would probably have a fit, so I won't even mention it. I will just pray. I can't stress myself out too much because of the baby. I am just going to relax because they are adults and can make their own decisions even if I feel they are bad decisions.


----------



## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

Marie, I hope you do not think I am prying into your lifestyle, but I am curious about something. Having grown up in church and raised my children the same way, we always hear the word Pagan, in reference to something being a "pagan holiday". I always assumed it just meant "worldy" or of the world and not of a Christian nature. You said you are now Pagan, and I was wondering what it really does mean. I truly am not being flip or anything, I just want to understand what it really means, as I may have been wrong concerning the definition for all of these years...
[/QUOTE] 

I do not have a problem at all answering you and I do not take it as prying. I feel that if more people asked questions then there would be a better understanding of it all. Pagan holidays are basically the same as what Christians celebrate. The Pagan religion is a very old religion and many of the Christian holidays were taken way back when to try to get Pagans to conform into Christians. The holidays are listed below with a short summary about them:
So there you have it those are the true Pagan holidays. Just for the record though, I just want to say that I don't think that any one religion is the "right" religion. As far as I am concerned as long as you believe in God and he is in your heart then that is a good thing. I have been Pagan for 39 years and it works for me.
Marie & Pacino</span></span>


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

Not to start a political debate (then you should just keep your mouth shut Cheryl) but I don't really think that it is the US taxpayer's responsibility to pay for passage out of Lebanon for those who are there of their own volition. If they were military personnel that needed to be evacuated, I would feel differently but I think those that are there by their own choice should have to foot the bill. I debated on posting because I am sure I will get my butt jumped on, but I just did not want those of you in other parts of the world to think our governent is being chintzy - after all, they spent all kinds of money on useless things!!! I do pray that they all get out safely, and if they don't have the money now, maybe they could be billed for it later, but I do think they should bear the financial burden, and not the American working class.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> Not to start a political debate (then you should just keep your mouth shut Cheryl) but I don't really think that it is the US taxpayer's responsibility to pay for passage out of Lebanon for those who are there of their own volition. If they were military personnel that needed to be evacuated, I would feel differently but I think those that are there by their own choice should have to foot the bill. I debated on posting because I am sure I will get my butt jumped on, but I just did not want those of you in other parts of the world to think our governent is being chintzy - after all, they spent all kinds of money on useless things!!! I do pray that they all get out safely, and if they don't have the money now, maybe they could be billed for it later, but I do think they should bear the financial burden, and not the American working class.[/B]


 Now cher for the butt/kicking well:














































JUST-KIDDING!!!!!

XOXO Andrea~


----------



## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

I have to admit to being totally confused over "conflicts" - the whys, the who does what, to whom, in whose name. I've had family and friends involved in several wars - the last two Gulf ones in particular. I worked as an army reservist in logistics during the first "unpleasantness" and in the most recent Gulf War, my godson was killed in Basra.

Today, I've been glued to the television news reports about the evacuation of British Passport holders from Lebanon and I've just seen two very dear friends and their children embark on HMS Bulwark with around 3,000 other people ready to sail to Cyprus first, then home. 

There will be a financial price to pay - by someone - who knows maybe even the evacuees. My friends were in Lebanon helping to improve trade with the UK and one of them was teaching English as a second language. They could certainly afford the price of a ticket out, if only they could have purchased a ticket out but they are the type of people who will ensure whatever is spent on their safety will in some way be repaid to help others. So many of the people going up that gangway, however, probably could not have got out without help - the elderly, frail, nursing mothers, pregnant women. Able bodied men/youths were not being embarked at that time, they will come last in the line.

The Royal Navy is often called upon to help out where they can in times of trouble and natural disasters like the Asian tsunami, to take just one instance, along with ships, military and organisations from many countries who also give tremendous and costly help. Some of the costs may have been defrayed by public and national donations but most of them were met by the helpers, their governments or whatever. Personally, I'd rather get all our citizens, who want to leave, out of harm's way first, then worry about the cost later. 

Cheryl.
This is not meant to be a butt-kicking in any way. I just added a bit to what I was already going to say.


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

The news this morning is very sad, scary, and disturbing.


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

The US did say that those that can't pay will be billed later. The only thing is, most people that can't pay then won't be able to pay later. Some will but others won't. 

And about the Pagan holidays, I thought that the egg decorating came from Pagans because they paint Pagan symbols (don't know what they are or what they mean) onto an egg and roll it down a hill and then they read what the egg says and it has something to do with their wedding or maybe what will come in the next year. I don't remember details but that's what I thought Easter eggs came from. And isn't there a holiday that Christians took and made Christmas out of? I thought that another Pagan tradition was on that holiday to get a tree, hang it upside down, and decorate it with Pagan symbols (again don't know what they are or what they mean). Just curious since I actually have a Pagan to ask these questions to. I had a Pagan friend who has since converted so she doesn't talk about the Pagan holidays anymore. She used to, but doesn't now.


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

Marie, thanks fpr replying on the Pagan issue. I am sure it can be a touchy subject. I was always told not to discuss religion or politics. I was just surprised because your initial post, stating you are now a Pagan, made it sound almost like a religion, such as Catholicism, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. That just totally was opposite of the view we had of Pagan growing up. As I said before, I really don't want to pry, but can you please answer me this - is Paganism the practice of believing in God and serving him, but not abiding by the by-laws of any organized religion? Also, do Pagans meet together in some manner in the same way that other congregrations do? I really am just trying to educate myself...


----------



## samsonsmom (May 4, 2005)

It's always sad to see human beings destroying each other. The saddest part is that they are usually doing it in the name of God. You do not believe what I believe, therefore it is my right to kill you. What a perversion of God's love for His children. Not only was there dancing in the streets in foreign countries after 9/11, I know of some that went on in this country. One of the hospitals I type for had an unfortunate incident of two Middle Eastern, although US educated and employed, giving a high-five to each other in the hallway just after tower 2 fell--and a precious friend of mine from Iran (who is so faithful to her Islamic heritage that she will not go out without her chador) having eggs thrown at her and her newborn baby in the parking lot of a local store after that horrible day. The injustice goes both ways. 

Been playing some old CDs this morning, and just heard Goulet sing "If I Ruled the World." If I did, my decree would be tolerance. Respect. Peace. There is another old song too...remember the theme song of the United Nations Children's Choir..."Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me." 

Carolyn aka Samsonsmom


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

My husband just sent me this link.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51124




> It's always sad to see human beings destroying each other. The saddest part is that they are usually doing it in the name of God. You do not believe what I believe, therefore it is my right to kill you. What a perversion of God's love for His children. Not only was there dancing in the streets in foreign countries after 9/11, I know of some that went on in this country. One of the hospitals I type for had an unfortunate incident of two Middle Eastern, although US educated and employed, giving a high-five to each other in the hallway just after tower 2 fell--and a precious friend of mine from Iran (who is so faithful to her Islamic heritage that she will not go out without her chador) having eggs thrown at her and her newborn baby in the parking lot of a local store after that horrible day. The injustice goes both ways.
> 
> Been playing some old CDs this morning, and just heard Goulet sing "If I Ruled the World." If I did, my decree would be tolerance. Respect. Peace. There is another old song too...remember the theme song of the United Nations Children's Choir..."Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me."
> 
> Carolyn aka Samsonsmom[/B]


I agree. The Bible says in Lev 19:18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but *thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself*: I [am] the LORD." not Love thy neighbor only if they are like you.


----------



## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> Thanks everyone for your concern for my family, and thank you for all the prayers.
> 
> Every other country evacuated sooner than the US did and they did it all for free. The US is making everyone pay for their own way back to the US. Now I know my family had money set aside to come home but now with the war and no work they might have spent some of it already. John got another email from his sister and she was talking about how much she loved it there, she doesn't plan on coming back. If I even mentioned they should send their daughter to live here they would probably have a fit, so I won't even mention it. I will just pray. I can't stress myself out too much because of the baby. I am just going to relax because they are adults and can make their own decisions even if I feel they are bad decisions.[/B]


I just want to add to this because I read the Australian paper on the net, there are many Australians stranded in Beirut and the fee for evacuation is $1000 per head, children included, and that is just to Cyprus, once they arrive there they need to find their own accomodation and buy their own tickets for their flights to where ever they want to go. The problem is that all attempts to find a ship so far have failed so they are still there stranded and also if they cannot find the finances to pay for their own evacuation they will just have to stay. Some were actually thought to have been on a Brittish ship and were expected in Cyprus but never arrived so they must have been left behind. The situation was explained that Israel had a curfew set that if people were not evacuated by a certain time the ships had to leave Beirut ports and head out to sea before more bombings took place. I am not sure how many Australians are there but it is in the many thousands.

Fanny Mae I will pray for your family members that they remain safe and unharmed through all this terrible crisis, I would be as worried as you are if any of my family or relatives were caught up in this dreadful situation


----------



## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

> The US did say that those that can't pay will be billed later. The only thing is, most people that can't pay then won't be able to pay later. Some will but others won't.
> 
> And about the Pagan holidays, I thought that the egg decorating came from Pagans because they paint Pagan symbols (don't know what they are or what they mean) onto an egg and roll it down a hill and then they read what the egg says and it has something to do with their wedding or maybe what will come in the next year. I don't remember details but that's what I thought Easter eggs came from. And isn't there a holiday that Christians took and made Christmas out of? I thought that another Pagan tradition was on that holiday to get a tree, hang it upside down, and decorate it with Pagan symbols (again don't know what they are or what they mean). Just curious since I actually have a Pagan to ask these questions to. I had a Pagan friend who has since converted so she doesn't talk about the Pagan holidays anymore. She used to, but doesn't now.[/B]


Yes, you are pretty close about what you wrote although I don't know about the upside down Christmas tree...we never did that. Yes, the designs on Easter eggs are Pagan symbols and not too many people know that. Pagan religion is a very old religion and centuries ago people did a lot of different things in all religions that what is done today. Thanks for the interest.
On another note I will pray for you family that they stay safe and I worry as you do about your 5 year old niece. That has got to be so scary for her.

Marie & Pacino



> Marie, thanks fpr replying on the Pagan issue. I am sure it can be a touchy subject. I was always told not to discuss religion or politics. I was just surprised because your initial post, stating you are now a Pagan, made it sound almost like a religion, such as Catholicism, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. That just totally was opposite of the view we had of Pagan growing up. As I said before, I really don't want to pry, but can you please answer me this - is Paganism the practice of believing in God and serving him, but not abiding by the by-laws of any organized religion? Also, do Pagans meet together in some manner in the same way that other congregrations do? I really am just trying to educate myself...[/B]


Yes, I like you, was always taught not to discuss religion or politics because everyone has their own beliefs that work for them. On the other hand I am not now a Pagan, I have been Pagan for 39+ years and comfortable in my beliefs. Pagan IS an organized religion just as Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc. is and I believe that all religion have by-laws that we follow and Pagan is no different. And just as in other religions some meet and some don't. Unfortunately the Pagan religion has gotten a bad rap because it is so misunderstood. But putting all religions aside I pray for peace and hope someday everyone can get along.

Marie & Pacino


----------



## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

I regret I cannot add to the Pagan discussion although I have seen in the Midsummer (and Midwinter) soltice on many occasions at Stone Henge on Salisbury Plain. That may be Druid-based but... whatever. No... I am not a Druid, just someone who has always been fascinated by the history and archaeology of my country.

At this time I would just like to say the Brits have, more or less, evacuated all British passport holders who wish to leave the country... BUT the fleet and helicopters are going back, according to my mates in logistics, and will stay in the vicinity as long as the curfews and Israel and Hezbollah allow. Now is the time for people in the USA, Australia etc to lobby their Governments to try to persuade them to ask the Brits (god forbid) to help their citizens. It has worked before... the Brit Prime Minister (Tony Bluuugh) is always eager for "Ye Olde Acclaim as an International Statesman". Give it a try !


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> I pray for peace to, but Israel has every right to defend itself. They were attacked by Hezbollah, they kidnapped two soldiers and entered Israel territory..Granted Israel is going nuts on them, but they are sick of fighting for there survival. The agreement in 2000 was Israel's withdrawal of Lebanon and the goverement was supposed to shut Hezbollah down, and of course they did not do that. I am sorry to say there will never be peace in the middle/east, yes we can pray for it, but I just don't think it's possible.The Palestines ask why do we only feel bad for Israel and not them, well I used to really feel bad for the Palestines, but the way they kill innocent people with those homocide bombers, I just don't feel for them anymore. My god teaches that a martyr is someone who dies for a cause, but does not take others with them.. The majority of Muslims do not practice radical Islam so you can't judge all> But these radicals are making even moderate muslims look bad. This also was the first time ever that even Saudi-Arabia said Hezbollah had no right to do this and they started this problem, wow that says alot in my book. I know the palestine's have a right to their freedom and the way their land was taken away is not fair, but Israel is not going anywhere , so why not make a deal and live in peace so your children can have a future.I just don't know why they can't have peace in the middle/east, I hope in my life/time I see it..
> 
> Thanks,
> Andrea~
> ...


I agree that any country has a "right" to "defend" itself when attacked, but I think that "right" is second to a country's RESPONSIBILITY to their fellow human beings: *don't bring missles to a knife fight*. Kidnapping two soldiers was very, very wrong. Firing upon thousands of innocent people is a bigger wrong in my book, in accordance with the old adage Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right. (Although I have heard rumor that three of them make a left







)

Also, this brings up another topic - how much responsibility should be placed on Lebanon for their failure to "shut Hezbollah down"? This "agreement" was brokered in 2000, correct? Six years ago? If that is the case, should the new Iraqi government be attacked for their failure to shut down the insurgencies and terrorist attacks stemming from factions of their citizenry? They have had four years. The US has had, for all official intents and purposes, control of the Iraqi government for most of those four years. Should we be blamed and attacked every time the Iraqi insurgents engage in kidnapping or other acts of terror? Lebanon has about as much power to mandate the return of the Israeli soldiers as the US has to enforce return of the hostages taken by the insurgents. Actually, the case could be made that Lebanon has *far* less power than the US in that regard. Lebanon is not a nuclear power - Israel, however, is. The military of Lebanon is nowhere near as well-funded as Hezbollah. And if it were that easy to evict and "shut down" Hezbollah, why didn't Israel do it during the 18 years they occupied Lebanon (roughly 1982 to 2000). It's not like Hezbollah didn't exist during the occupation, and it's not like Israel didn't recognize them as a threat, either. Seems to me the rest of the world should be helping the government of Lebanon to deal with Hezbollah instead of kicking them while they are down.

Just some food for thought on a Friday morning in mid-July. For best results, drink a glass of milk before attempting to digest.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=223440
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree Lebanon, is being punished, but not only did Hezbollah kid/nap their soldiers they also shot rockets into Israel towns, Hezbollah(Party of God) since 1982, has been a thorn in not only Israel's side , but many others. They do not want peace they want all JEWS dead that is their goal nothing else. They have no regard for human life including their fellow muslims. Lebanon was warned many times within years to do something, and it did not take action AT ALL.. If a goverment can't stop them then Israel has the right to push them back and get them out of range from killing their people..It's not like they just bomb, they send warnings to the people to get out , cause the bombs are coming.. Hezbollah just bombed Nazarath and killed 2 muslim children, they know full well Nazarath is mostly muslim population.They don't care they want to kill everyone even their own, they are terrorists not freedom fighters, do you really think Israel wanted to be in Lebanon for 18 years, I don't think so.. The problem is the other arab goverments are not doing anything about this at all(They even said Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia) that Hezbollah started this problem and has pushed back the peace process for years to come. Syria and Iran are the problem . The only reason Hezbollah even started was because it had Iran's okay to do so, they don't move a inch without the ok from Iran. Isarael has not had peace since the beginning of time there has always been someone out to destroy them. Terrorists are terrorists plain and simple, they are not fighting for the land, because Israel does not want it, they are fighting to destroy this world, while Israel is fighting for it's survival..

Thanks,
Andrea=) 

P.S As far as Iraq goes the terrorist that are there, are not even form Iraq, the goverment is still new and the U.S is still there helping them get their country back, so it's like comparing Apples and oranges..


----------



## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

> P.S As far as Iraq goes the terrorist that are there, are not even form Iraq, the goverment is still new and the U.S is still there helping them get their country back, so it's like comparing Apples and oranges..[/B]


I agree and, I'm sorry to say, the USA is not alone in failing to get all that nonsense sorted out.


----------



## ddsumm (Jan 26, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=224956
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow Janet, there has been NOTHING on the news here that the Australian governmnet is charging $1,000 bucks to evacuate its people.














plus I havent seen anything in the west australian newspaper (we only got the one paper here in the west) to that effect either.

What *DID* happen, was the Australian government chartered some ships to get our people out and when the ships arrived, the companies that *OWNED* the ships, were offered *MORE* money by other *countries* to ship their (other countries) people out and the aussies were left high and dry!!!! Now that SUCKS to say the least.
















But then I guess that's politics for you. In a time of crisis, bleed the people for as much money as one can make.

















Dede and Chloe from down under


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

As we used to say back in the '70's: Right on Andrea!!! By the way, I heard on the news last night that the US govenrment was waiving the cost of evacuation so I assume the taxpayers will be paying for those cruise ships.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> As we used to say back in the '70's: Right on Andrea!!! By the way, I heard on the news last night that the US govenrment was waiving the cost of evacuation so I assume the taxpayers will be paying for those cruise ships.[/B]











....I am glad we can all agree to disagree..I love SM..













Andrea~







I got my quotes mixed up...Oh lord I am at it again...


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

Just to let you Aussies know, I have asked for prayer for your people as well. I ask for prayer for all the people in Lebanon and Israel but when I heard the story about the Australians I specifically asked for prayer for them. That's so sad. God be with all of them.


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=225982
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lorraine, I agree that the USA is not alone in "failing to get all that nonsense sorted out." That is precisely the reason I made the comparison to begin with, because if the USA with all our military might cannot quickly wipe out acts of terror in the countries they govern/control, how on earth could an undeveloped nation such as Lebanon be expected to? The point I was trying to make is that blaming the government of Lebanon for Hezbollah is equivalent to blaming the US for the Iraqi insurgents. 

Andrea, I disagree that it's comparing apples and oranges, and I will attempt to tell you why using the exact examples you used. 

1. The Lebanese government is only two years older than the Iraqi government. In historical terms, both governments are newborns still learning to walk. Iraq has the added bonus of having the support of the United States in trying to "get their country back" - Lebanon does not have any such support.

2. There are just as many of the terrorists in Lebanon that are not "from" Lebanon as there are terrorists in Iraq who are not "from" Iraq.



> They do not want peace they want all JEWS dead that is their goal nothing else. They have no regard for human life including their fellow muslims.[/B]


That's a pretty lofty accusation to be making without some proof to back it up. Could you please provide me with a link or a source quote from a Hezbollah representative to support that allegation? According to what I have read, Hezbollah was formed in 1982 as a direct reaction to the Israeli occupation and is viewed by many nations as a legitimate resistance group. They are not classified as a terrorist organization by the European Union. Their stated mission is to protect their nation from outside interference, the same thing that Israel is trying to do. *They publicly denounced the September 11th terrorist attacks on the US.* They have also denounced many others. If they wanted all Jewish folks dead, they would not have denounced September 11th.

I am not in any way, shape or form trying to suggest that Hezbollah or even the Lebanese government is a blameless, innocent victim. Both Lebanon and Israel have acted irresponsibly on this issue. But Israel has acted more irresponsibly and I have already stated that I think the government of Israel and other nations of financial means should have offered the fig leaf instead of the razor strop. And if any nation is to blame for Hezbollah, it would be Iran and Syria who are it's largest financial contributors. Attacking Lebanon is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.

And a final note about people who are just trying to protect the sovereignty of their nation - The modern nation of Israel has only existed since 1947. This historical conflict you speak of has being going on since the dawn of recorded history - that is, displaced people fighting for the right to keep their homes and places of worship. ALL of the nations bordering Israel have been involved in this dispute for centuries, and it's their home, too. ALL of their ancestors struggled to fight for their basic human rights. Therefore, ALL of these groups need to be grown-ups, stop fighting on the playgrounds, take responsibility for their own actions, and come to a mutual agreement FREE FROM INTERNATIONAL INFLUENCE AND PRESSURE. They have ALL been the victim at some point in history, and they have ALL been the playground bully at another.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Hezbollah with strong encouragement from Syria & Iran continues to operate in Lebanon, Lebanon has done nothing, zero, zilch to stop them. Hezbollah is firing rockets and missiles at unprecedented levels..
Do I know a Hezbollah rep







(Are u kidding me)'' 
Here are some well known facts:
Hezbollah missiles are stored and launched from family homes (Who receive rent from Hezbollah) they store them in places of worship. and repeatedly said their goal is to kill all jews. They condemned the 911 attacks...OKAY- they could not have been more happier , their so call martyrdom has become a cult to them. They have no regard for human life..Do I know someone, well lets just say he was embedded in South Lebanon for 10 years. They want an islamic state (Which is fine if that is what the people wanted)
Lebanon has apuppet goverment, they take their orders from Hezbollah who takes their orders from Iran & Syria. The leader of Hezbollah Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, has stated they are coming for America next(Is that not a terrorist statement), they are a bunch of nut/bags who hijacked Islam and use it in the name of their cause. No God any God would tell people to kill, they are not fighting for land, Israel does not want it, if they did they would not have pulled out in 2000. I can't stress enough that they are killers and God forbid the day comes when they attack America , you might just change your opinion..Like I said we all have our opinions (And that is great) , but nobody not even you will tell me Hezbollah are not terrorists.If we do not do something about Iran and Syria and North Korea as well as Hezbollah and Hamas , we will all fall..

This is my last statement on this thread, I do not want to get into it anymore, OOps Edit..









Andrea~


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Hezbollah with strong encouragement from Syria & Iran continues to operate in Lebanon, Lebanon has done nothing, zero, zilch to stop them. Hezbollah is firing rockets and missiles at unprecedented levels..
> Do I know a Hezbollah rep
> 
> 
> ...


Okay Andrea,

You obviously have some very strong personal feelings about this subject. Sometimes strong personal feelings can cloud a persons "objectivity" on a situation, and they no longer hear what is being said. For example, what I said was that the European Union does not consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization. That is a verifiable fact. "Nobody not even you will tell me Hezbollah are not terrorists." The European Union disagrees. I did not give my personal opinion on the terrorist classification, so I don't know why you keep responding as if I did except that you are taking the conversation way too personally and can no longer separate what I present as my opinion versus what I present as verifiable fact. I was trying to present a historical perspective from the research I have done. 

Obviously I did make a judgement call that BOTH sides have done wrong, and I did place more responsibility on Israel because they are a developed nation with the backing of the United States. To those whom much is given, much is expected.

I don't belittle any group by calling it "nutbags" and I find it most unhelpful to any sort of rationalized discussion to do so. That is not an opinion that would change if the United States were under attack.


----------



## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Good grief Lucida.Ann I don't know what news you are following. Al Jazeera ? Hezbollah is on the terrorist list of almost every nation besides the Arab Countries. Not classified by the European Union ? Are you kidding me ? If Hezbollah and Hamas (backed by Syria and Iran) would have agreed to recognize the State of Israel there would have been peace a long time ago. 
It is just so sad for Lebanon. It was such a beautiful country before 1967. The jewel of the Middle East. And what have the Palestinians done with it ? To thank them for their hospitality the Palestinians (not all of them, you cannot put everybody in the same basket) started a civil war. They tried to do the same thing in Jordan. But thankgoodness the King at the time had his bedouins with him. Why do you think there are so many Palestinians still in refugee camps ? Nobody wants them not even their arab brothers. Because they are afraid they will do in their country the same thing they did in Lebanon. They throw money at them in the hope that by doing this they will leave them alone.
Have you lived in the Middle East ? I have. I was in Kuwait in 1967 when the war broke out. I lived in Khafji, Saudi Arabia. We had Palestinian friends and Saudi friends and Lebanese friends. They were all nice people. I just hope they are alright where ever they are today. 
That's all I am going to say for now. I don't want to annoye more people. This little bit will probably already annoy a few.


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> Good grief Lucida.Ann I don't know what news you are following. Al Jazeera ? Hezbollah is on the terrorist list of almost every nation besides the Arab Countries. Not classified by the European Union ? Are you kidding me ? If Hezbollah and Hamas (backed by Syria and Iran) would have agreed to recognize the State of Israel there would have been peace a long time ago.
> It is just so sad for Lebanon. It was such a beautiful country before 1967. The jewel of the Middle East. And what have the Palestinians done with it ? To thank them for their hospitality the Palestinians (not all of them, you cannot put everybody in the same basket) started a civil war. They tried to do the same thing in Jordan. But thankgoodness the King at the time had his bedouins with him. Why do you think there are so many Palestinians still in refugee camps ? Nobody wants them not even their arab brothers. Because they are afraid they will do in their country the same thing they did in Lebanon. They throw money at them in the hope that by doing this they will leave them alone.
> Have you lived in the Middle East ? I have. I was in Kuwait in 1967 when the war broke out. I lived in Khafji, Saudi Arabia. We had Palestinian friends and Saudi friends and Lebanese friends. They were all nice people. I just hope they are alright where ever they are today.
> That's all I am going to say for now. I don't want to annoye more people. This little bit will probably already annoy a few.[/B]




Jane, I can only speak for myself. You did not annoy me at all. I share your opinions. I know from personal experience that sometimes it takes a lot of courage to stand up for what you believe in when you know you are going to get slammed for it. As you are someone who has lived in the middle east, I thoroughly respect your opinion.


----------



## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

Well the good news is that some Australians are now being evacuated, and yes Dede I did read about the ship charters and that sux big time, that is what is causing the slow evacuation of the Aussies, but the Brits and Greek ships are getting some out which is great..


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> > Good grief Lucida.Ann I don't know what news you are following. Al Jazeera ? Hezbollah is on the terrorist list of almost every nation besides the Arab Countries. Not classified by the European Union ? Are you kidding me ? If Hezbollah and Hamas (backed by Syria and Iran) would have agreed to recognize the State of Israel there would have been peace a long time ago.
> > It is just so sad for Lebanon. It was such a beautiful country before 1967. The jewel of the Middle East. And what have the Palestinians done with it ? To thank them for their hospitality the Palestinians (not all of them, you cannot put everybody in the same basket) started a civil war. They tried to do the same thing in Jordan. But thankgoodness the King at the time had his bedouins with him. Why do you think there are so many Palestinians still in refugee camps ? Nobody wants them not even their arab brothers. Because they are afraid they will do in their country the same thing they did in Lebanon. They throw money at them in the hope that by doing this they will leave them alone.
> > Have you lived in the Middle East ? I have. I was in Kuwait in 1967 when the war broke out. I lived in Khafji, Saudi Arabia. We had Palestinian friends and Saudi friends and Lebanese friends. They were all nice people. I just hope they are alright where ever they are today.
> > That's all I am going to say for now. I don't want to annoye more people. This little bit will probably already annoy a few.
> ...


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

I know others will not share my opinion, but I do not listen to NPR. I used to but found it to be terribly slanted and not "fair and balanced". I have friends who are avid listeners and when in their vehicles, I am "forced" to listen and frankly, I don't put a lot of stock into everything I hear. After all, they are the media and that about sums it up.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Maltese Jane, my info comes partially from wikipedia.org, partially from NPR, and partially from my political science degree. Here is a quote from the July 14th New York Times article:[/B]


Wikipedia information comes from volunteers who write and edit its content. There is a lot of controvery going on right now regarding its accuracy and bias. There is even an anti-Wikipedia discussion board.


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

I see that some people have issues with the accuracy and/or quality of the information on Wikipedia. Does anyone have a problem with the accuracy of the information provided on Encyclopedia Britannica regarding this subject?

And I recognize that some people might not value the reporting on NPR. Which is why I am happy to provide source material from the BBC, which reports that 340 Lebanese have been killed - ten times the 34 Israelis who have been killed, and that Hezbollah has fired "dozens" of missles into Israel. Israel has fired over 1800. It's not a fair fight.


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> 340 Lebanese have been killed - ten times the 34 Israelis who have been killed.
> It's not a fair fight.[/B]




Maybe the Israelis are just better shots!!! And since when has fairness ever entered into a war??? Maybe the Israelis are "the better team" but does that lessen their right to defend themselves?


----------



## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

> It's not a fair fight.[/B]











Good grief, Lucida.ann - when has war ever been fair, when has terrorism ever been fair, what was fair about 911 and 77, to say nothing about the Holocaust, Hiroshima... and on... and on... and on... 

When I gained my degrees in geo-politics (and linguistics) and joined the British Army, I soon found out that political reality ain't nothin' like the theory. Oh and wikipedia hasn't quite got the hang of geo-politics either, but that's beside the point. 

I have found that for each and every "verifiable" fact there can be an equally strong and opposing "verifiable" fact - it depends how profound and up to date (Google?) the research into "the fact" is. Just my opinion which I have no intention of verifying.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=226650
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just love you, Lorraine!


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Good grief, Lucida.ann - when has war ever been fair, when has terrorism ever been fair, what was fair about 911 and 77, to say nothing about the Holocaust, Hiroshima... and on... and on... and on...[/B]


You'll get no disagreement out of me on that point.











> When I gained my degrees in geo-politics (and linguistics) and joined the British Army, I soon found out that political reality ain't nothin' like the theory. Oh and wikipedia hasn't quite got the hang of geo-politics either, but that's beside the point.
> 
> I have found that for each and every "verifiable" fact there can be an equally strong and opposing "verifiable" fact - it depends how profound and up to date (Google?) the research into "the fact" is. Just my opinion which I have no intention of verifying.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I misspoke myself. The only peice(s) of information I am presenting as a verifiable fact are -

1 The European Union does not recognize Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, and yes, they do have a list.

2 Ten times the number of Lebanese citizens have been killed. 

And to the person who made the comment "perhaps Israel is better at hitting their target," my response is that it is illegal to target civilians. I would sincerely hope those casualties are not intentional.


----------



## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

> Perhaps I misspoke myself. The only peice(s) of information I am presenting as a verifiable fact are -
> 
> 1 The European Union does not recognize Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, and yes, they do have a list.[/B]


On the other hand:


> The group called Hezbollah is on the U.S. State Department's list of terrorist organizations...
> http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/...llah/index.html[/B]





> And to the person who made the comment "perhaps Israel is better at hitting their target," my response is that it is illegal to target civilians. I would sincerely hope those casualties are not intentional.[/B]


Funny how different people interpret the same words or how their eyes are drawn to those which most fit their purpose. From your BBC link, my eyes were drawn to this.


> The Israeli air force says it has hit 70 *targets* in Lebanon since Friday night, and 1,800 *targets* over the course of the campaign.[/B]


Collateral damage








Not bad - even for wikipedia. Military double-speak (and distinction between targeted and not targeted) is such a hoot as both civilians and military personnel who found themselves in war-zones could probably testify. If they were still alive that is.

QED - over and out


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> And to the person who made the comment "perhaps Israel is better at hitting their target," my response is that it is illegal to target civilians. I would sincerely hope those casualties are not intentional.
> 
> QUOTE





> Funny how different people interpret the same words or how their eyes are drawn to those which most fit their purpose. From your BBC link, my eyes were drawn to this.
> The Israeli air force says it has hit 70 *targets* in Lebanon since Friday night, and 1,800 *targets* over the course of the campaign.[/B]


 [/B][/QUOTE] 

Here is the context that the remark I wrote came from, and I don't believe I read it the BBC report any differently than you did. I wrote:



> "340 Lebanese have been killed - ten times the 34 Israelis who have been killed.
> It's not a fair fight."[/B]


Greg's wife responded:



> "Maybe the Israelis are just better shots!!![/B]


And my response to that remark remains unchanged: "Greg's wife" is indicating that the reason there is more casualties on the Lebanese side is because Israel is more accurate at hitting their targets. The BBC article stated that many of the Lebanese casualties were civilians. It stands to reason that if Greg's Wife thinks Israel is more accurate at hitting their target, then their target has to include civilians. I am hoping that in light of this, Greg's Wife would be interested in recanting her comment, because targeting civilians is against the Geneva Convention rules.

Also, I am aware of what organizations consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organizations and which do not. THe US and the UK, amongst many others DO, and the European Union, amongst many other countries, DOES NOT. Those are undisputed facts as anyone can look up the "lists" for themselves. Everyone who is responding seems to be under the assumption that my personal opinion has been stated on this, but it hasn't. Up until now that is. I would *personally* consider some of Hezbollah's activities of the past few years to qualify as acts of terror. I am saying that the European Union and just as many countries consider Hezbollah a legitimate resistance movement as the US and other countries consider them terrorists. There are two sides to every story, and where you stand usually depends on where you sit.


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

Actually Lucida, I don't have any interest in recanting my statement, but thanks for the offer.. I truly believe that Israel did not start this, but they were attacked and I believe they have every right to finish it. You seem to believe that war is played by the rules. It appears to me that your whole debate is in order to defend Hezbollah and by doing so, also defend terrorism. On your website (www.thesnarkpit.com), you state "make fun, not war), so are you mainly here to make fun of us? I am just wondering because almost every post you make is something to cause controversy. I know everyone is welcome, but I have never heard you mention owning a maltese, so I do have to wonder what your agenda here is. If you are here to learn more about this loving breed, that is wonderful, but from what I have read in your writings, I have to question if that is the case. Sorry Joe....


----------



## eyespy (Jan 31, 2006)

> Actually Lucida, I don't have any interest in recanting my statement. I truly believe that Israel did not start this, but they were attacked and I believe they have every right to finish it. You seem to believe that war is played by the rules. It appears to me that your whole debate is in order to defend Hezbollah and by doing so, also defend terrorism. On your website (www.thesnarkpit.com), you state "make fun, not war), so are you mainly here to make fun of us? I am just wondering because almost every post you make is something to cause controversy. I know everyone is welcome, but I have never heard you mention owning a maltese, so I do have to wonder what your agenda here is. If you are here to learn more about this loving breed, that is wonderful, but from what I have read in your writings, I have to question if that is the case. Sorry Joe....[/B]



Ok this may be edited but....



































Cheryl you rock!


----------



## eyespy (Jan 31, 2006)

Israel has long sought a peaceful northern border. But Lebanon's position as a haven for terrorist groups has made this impossible. In March 1978, PLO terrorists infiltrated Israel. After murdering an American tourist walking near an Israeli beach, they hijacked a civilian bus. The terrorists shot through the windows as the bus traveled down the highway. When Israeli troops intercepted the bus, the terrorists opened fire. A total of 34 hostages died in the attack. In response, Israeli forces crossed into Lebanon and overran terrorist bases in the southern part of that country, pushing the terrorists away from the border. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) withdrew after two months, allowing United Nations forces to enter. But UN troops were unable to prevent terrorists from reinfiltrating the region and introducing new, more dangerous arms.

Violence escalated with a series of PLO attacks and Israeli reprisals. Finally, the United States helped broker a cease­fire agreement in July 1981. The PLO repeatedly violated the cease-fire over the ensuing 11 months. Israel charged that the PLO staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and along the Lebanese and Jordanian borders. Twenty­nine Israelis died and more than 300 were injured in the attacks.

Meanwhile, a force of some 15-18,000 PLO members was encamped in scores of locations in Lebanon. About 5,000-6,000 were foreign mercenaries, coming from such countries as Libya, Iraq, India, Sri Lanka, Chad and Mozambique. Israel later discovered enough light arms and other weapons in Lebanon to equip five brigades. The PLO arsenal included mortars, Katyusha rockets and an extensive anti­aircraft network. The PLO also brought hundreds of T­34 tanks into the area. Syria, which permitted Lebanon to become a haven for the PLO and other terrorist groups, brought surface-to-air missiles into that country, creating yet another danger for Israel.

Israeli strikes and commando raids were unable to stem the growth of this PLO army. The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. Israel was not prepared to wait for more deadly attacks to be launched against its civilian population before acting against the terrorists.

The final provocation occurred in June 1982 when a Palestinian terrorist group led by Abu Nidal attempted to assassinate Israel's Ambassador to Great Britain, Shlomo Argov. The IDF subsequently attacked Lebanon again on June 4-5, 1982. The PLO responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. On June 6, the IDF moved into Lebanon to drive out the terrorists in "Operation Peace for Galilee."

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger defended the Israeli operation: "No sovereign state can tolerate indefinitely the buildup along its borders of a military force dedicated to its destruction and implementing its objectives by periodic shellings and raids" (Washington Post, June 16, 1982).

"On Lebanon, it is clear that we and Israel both seek an end to the violence there, and a sovereign, independent Lebanon," President Reagan said June 21, 1982. "We agree that Israel must not be subjected to violence from the north."



The initial success of the Israeli operation led officials to broaden the objective to expel the PLO from Lebanon and induce the country's leaders to sign a peace treaty. In 1983, Lebanon's President, Amin Gemayel, signed a peace treaty with Israel. A year later, Syria forced Gemayel to renege on the agreement. The war then became drawn out as the IDF captured Beirut and surrounded Yasser Arafat and his guerrillas.

PLO Tyranny in Lebanon
For Arab residents of south Lebanon, PLO rule was a nightmare. After the PLO was expelled from Jordan by King Hussein in 1970, many of its cadres went to Lebanon. The PLO seized whole areas of the country, where it brutalized the population and usurped Lebanese government authority.

On October 14, 1976, Lebanese Ambassador Edward Ghorra told the UN General Assembly the PLO was bringing ruin upon his country: “Palestinian elements belonging to various splinter organizations resorted to kidnaping Lebanese, and sometimes foreigners, holding them prisoners, questioning them, and even sometimes killing them.”

Columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, not known for being sympathetic toward Israel, declared after touring south Lebanon and Beirut that the facts "tend to support Israel's claim that the PLO has become permeated by thugs and adventurers" (Washington Post, June 25, 1982). Countless Lebanese told harrowing tales of rape, mutilation and murders committed by PLO forces.

New York Times correspondent David Shipler visited Damour, a Christian village near Beirut, which had been occupied by the PLO since 1976, when Palestinians and Lebanese leftists sacked the city and massacred hundreds of its inhabitants. The PLO, Shipler wrote, had turned the town into a military base, "using its churches as strongholds and armories" (New York Times, June 21, 1982).

When the IDF drove the PLO out of Damour in June 1982, Prime Minister Menachem Begin announced that the town's Christian residents could come home and rebuild. Returning villagers found their former homes littered with spray-painted Palestinian nationalist slogans, Fatah literature and posters of Yasir Arafat. They told Shipler how happy they were that Israel had liberated them.

The PLO's Reluctant Retreat
When the IDF captured Beirut, the civilian population was forced to suffer because of the PLO's refusal to surrender. By mid-June, Israeli troops had surrounded 6,000-9,000 terrorists who had taken up positions amid the civilian population of West Beirut. To prevent civilian casualties, Israel agreed to a cease-fire to enable an American diplomat, Ambassador Philip Habib, to mediate a peaceful PLO withdrawal from Lebanon. As a gesture of flexibility, Israel agreed to permit PLO forces to leave Beirut with their personal weapons. But the PLO continued to make new demands.

The PLO also adopted a strategy of controlled violations of the cease­fire, with the purpose of inflicting casualties on Israel and provoking Israeli retaliation sufficient to get the IDF blamed for disrupting the negotiations and harming civilians. For more than a month, the PLO tried to extract a political victory from its military defeat. Arafat declared his willingness "in principle" to leave Beirut, then refused to go to any other country. Arafat also tried to push the U.S. to recognize the PLO. Throughout the siege, the PLO hid behind innocent civilians, accurately calculating that if Israel were to attack, it would be internationally condemned.

"The Israelis bombed buildings, innocent looking on the outside, where their intelligence told them that PLO offices were hidden," wrote Middle East analyst Joshua Muravchik ("Misreporting Lebanon," Policy Review, Winter 1983). "Their intelligence also told them of the huge network of underground PLO storage facilities for arms and munitions that was later uncovered by the Lebanese Army. No doubt the Israelis dropped some bombs hoping to penetrate those facilities and detonate the dumps. The PLO had both artillery and anti­aircraft [equipment] truck mounted. These would fire at the Israelis and then move." The Israelis would fire back and sometimes miss, inadvertently hitting civilian targets.

In numerous instances, the media mistakenly reported that Israel was hitting civilian targets in areas where no military ones were nearby. On one night in July, Israeli shells hit seven embassies in Beirut. NBC aired a report that appeared to lend credence to PLO claims it had no military positions in the area. Israel, Muravchik noted, "soon released reconnaissance photos showing the embassy area honeycombed with tanks, mortars, heavy machine guns and anti­aircraft positions."

The Lebanon war provoked intense debate within Israel. For the first time in Israel's history, a consensus for war did not exist (though it did at the outset). Prime Minister Menachem Begin resigned as demands for an end to the fighting grew louder. The national coalition government that took office in 1984 decided to withdraw from Lebanon, leaving behind a token force to help the South Lebanese Army (which Israel had long supported) patrol a security zone near Israel's border.

Though the IDF succeeded in driving the PLO out of Lebanon, it did not end the terrorist threats from that country. The war was also costly, 1,216 soldiers died between June 5, 1982, and May 31, 1985.

Ongoing Violence
Jerusalem repeatedly stressed that Israel did not covet a single inch of Lebanese territory. Israel's 1985 withdrawal from Lebanon confirmed that. The small 1,000-man Israeli force, deployed in a strip of territory extending eight miles into south Lebanon, protects towns and villages in northern Israel from attack. Israel also repeatedly said it would completely withdraw from Lebanon in return for a stable security situation on its northern border.

Most of the terrorist groups that threaten Israel have not been disarmed. For example, several thousand terrorists currently in Lebanon are members of Hezbollah. The group receives financial support and arms from Iran, usually via Damascus. Hezbollah - which had initially confined itself to launching Katyusha rocket attacks on northern Israel and ambushing Israeli troops in the security zone-has in recent years stepped up its atta cks on Israeli civilians.

In April 1995, the IDF mounted "Operation Grapes of Wrath" to halt Hezbollah's bombardment of Israel's northern frontier. During the operation, Israeli artillery mistakenly hit a UN base in Kafr Kana, killing nearly 100 civilians. Afterward, a Joint Monitoring Machinery, including American, French, Syrian and Lebanese representatives, was created to prohibit unprovoked attacks on civilian populations and the use of civilians as shields for terrorist activities.

The Syrian-backed Lebanese Army has yet to take action against Hezbollah, or other terrorist organizations, such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) or Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), which have bases in the Syrian-controlled Bekaa Valley in eastern Lebanon. Syria, in fact, declared its unqualified support for stepped-up violence in the area. Consequently, attacks against Israeli troops in the Security Zone and civilians in northern Israel continued.


----------



## izzysmom (Nov 6, 2005)

> I am really happy to meet lots of educated understanding people in my life, and Andrea I think that you are one of them along with many many others


I haven't finished reading through this thread yet, but I just wanted to agree heartily with everything that Andrea has said, and also agree with Katkoota in that I, too, have learned a lot from reading her (Andrea's)posts!



> Marie, I hope you do not think I am prying into your lifestyle, but I am curious about something. Having grown up in church and raised my children the same way, we always hear the word Pagan, in reference to something being a "pagan holiday". I always assumed it just meant "worldy" or of the world and not of a Christian nature. You said you are now Pagan, and I was wondering what it really does mean. I truly am not being flip or anything, I just want to understand what it really means, as I may have been wrong concerning the definition for all of these years...


I do not have a problem at all answering you and I do not take it as prying. I feel that if more people asked questions then there would be a better understanding of it all. Pagan holidays are basically the same as what Christians celebrate. The Pagan religion is a very old religion and many of the Christian holidays were taken way back when to try to get Pagans to conform into Christians. The holidays are listed below with a short summary about them:
So there you have it those are the true Pagan holidays. Just for the record though, I just want to say that I don't think that any one religion is the "right" religion. As far as I am concerned as long as you believe in God and he is in your heart then that is a good thing. I have been Pagan for 39 years and it works for me.
Marie & Pacino</span></span>
[/QUOTE]
how interesting! i have friends who are Pagans and I never quite understood what that meant (dumb me, I thought it meant that they were agnostic). very informative - thanks for sharing!


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Actually Lucida, I don't have any interest in recanting my statement, but thanks for the offer.. I truly believe that Israel did not start this, but they were attacked and I believe they have every right to finish it. You seem to believe that war is played by the rules. It appears to me that your whole debate is in order to defend Hezbollah and by doing so, also defend terrorism. On your website (www.thesnarkpit.com), you state "make fun, not war), so are you mainly here to make fun of us? I am just wondering because almost every post you make is something to cause controversy. I know everyone is welcome, but I have never heard you mention owning a maltese, so I do have to wonder what your agenda here is. If you are here to learn more about this loving breed, that is wonderful, but from what I have read in your writings, I have to question if that is the case. Sorry Joe....[/B]


I am sorry that my desire to present a counterpoint to the prevailing sentiment expressed here that Lebanon deserves to be attacked is perceived as offensive to some, but again I would like to emphasize that my desire is to illustrate that *both* sides are to blame. *It have no desire to to "defend" the recent actions taken by Hezbollah * - I simply want to try and dispel some inaccuracies surrounding it from an historical perspective. And I have *never* defended nor excused terrorism, or any senseless act of violence for that matter. Perhaps it is my fault that my comments are being misinterpreted. Perhaps I am not doing an effective job of expressing my thoughts on this subject. I am willing to accept responsibility if I have not stated what I wanted to convey in a manner that doesn't leave itself so open to misinterpretation.

Thank you for mentioning my website in your post - we are always happy to have new traffic to the site. The site is, indeed, created to make fun of celebrities, and I can assure you that there is no "make fun of maltese owners" forum anywhere on the forums. I take that back - I suppose if a celebrity had a maltese we might make fun of a maltese owner (that celebrity). I recognize that this is a large community with many posts so I can understand how you might have missed the many posts I have made discussing maltese issues such as grooming, breeding practices, rescues, etcetera. 

I also find it most unfortunate that you have interpreted my propensity towards analytical discussions as an intent to cause controversy, because if you decided instead to assume no harm regarding my intent, you might discover that I genuinely enjoy thoughtful discussions. I can think of two instances where I said something to a member here that I regretted, and I remember publicly apologizing to both of them in very short order. If you or anybody else should happen in the future to find a particular comment of mine offensive and believe it was deliberate, by all means, please point it out to me. Chances are I am coming across in a manner I did not intend to or was not aware of, and I can't change something I am not aware of.

But this thread/discussion isn't about me (or at least it should not be). I don't think that my personal life circumstances are germaine to this discussion, and I would politely suggest that although you may not care for my ideas and/or opinions, perhaps you could refrain in the future from getting personal, and in particular I would ask that you not make speculations about my life or what kind of person I am. I have, up until this point, focused on the issues, ideas and opinions on this topic, not on personally attacking the people who express them, and I would ask that the favor be returned. I can accept and respect that nobody who has commented here thus far on this subject has shared my opinions, but provided I am not personally insulting people for their opinions, am I not to express my views the same as the next person? The question I really am interested in hearing from you ion regarding this current thread is: Are you offended by my actual opinions or the manner in which I express them? If the answer is the latter, I am willing to make modifications to my approach. If the answer is the former, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> Israel has long sought a peaceful northern border. But Lebanon's position as a haven for terrorist groups has made this impossible. In March 1978, PLO terrorists infiltrated Israel. After murdering an American tourist walking near an Israeli beach, they hijacked a civilian bus. The terrorists shot through the windows as the bus traveled down the highway. When Israeli troops intercepted the bus, the terrorists opened fire. A total of 34 hostages died in the attack. In response, Israeli forces crossed into Lebanon and overran terrorist bases in the southern part of that country, pushing the terrorists away from the border. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) withdrew after two months, allowing United Nations forces to enter. But UN troops were unable to prevent terrorists from reinfiltrating the region and introducing new, more dangerous arms.
> 
> Violence escalated with a series of PLO attacks and Israeli reprisals. Finally, the United States helped broker a cease­fire agreement in July 1981. The PLO repeatedly violated the cease-fire over the ensuing 11 months. Israel charged that the PLO staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and along the Lebanese and Jordanian borders. Twenty­nine Israelis died and more than 300 were injured in the attacks.
> 
> ...




Wow Christi, you have really done your homework. You and Andrea are just a wealth of information. Thanks


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=226933
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, Christi's "post" was written by Mitchell Bard of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise. She simply copied and pasted the article he wrote, word for word, with no source credit to the author or the web page it was taken from. Read it word for word here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...ebanon_War.html

The American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise is an Israeli advocacy group. It sometimes has excellent and accurate information. Except when it doesn't. It is, after all, an advocacy group.


----------



## eyespy (Jan 31, 2006)

Actually, Christi's "post" was written by Mitchell Bard of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise. She simply copied and pasted the article he wrote, word for word, with no source credit to the author or the web page it was taken from. Read it word for word here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...banon_War.html*

The American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise is an Israeli advocacy group. It sometimes has excellent and accurate information. Except when it doesn't. It is, after all, an advocacy group.**

Well, DUH, of course I didn't write this. This is for information purposes only...next time I will be sure and add footnotes for those who REALLY REALLY care and get uptight about it....***






*from lucida.ann
**more from lucida.ann
***my words exactly from me


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

Lucida, I wasn't going to reply but I will. You asked what offended me about your posts, so I will give you the courtesy of an answer. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - BUT, when someone defends terrorists and even tries to make them out to be "freedom fighters or martys", I do find it extremely offensive. In light of the fact that on 9-11, on our own soil, cowardly terrorists took the lives of almost 3,000 innocent people and forever changed the lives of hundreds of thousand of people. You are concerned that this war between Hezbollah and Israel isn't "fair" to Hezbollah - was 9-11 fair to the people in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and on United flight 93? And do not assume I am comparing apples to oranges - it is the same thing. Terrorists do the same in all corners of the world on a daily basis. Not a day goes by when the news does not carry stories of suicide bombers and other attacks on innocent people. You say that you are not defending terrorism, but not only I, but many others have interpretted your posts to be doing so. And as I have stated before, I believe that inciting others was the sole purpose of the post. I am not going to debate this matter further because I respect Joe too much to cause him any further grief by having to deal with another controversial topic. Plus no matter how long we go on with these exchanges, nothing will change. I will stand firm in my belief that terrorism and terrorists should be dealt with in whatever manner need be, and you will continue to defend their right to blow up innocent people and say that they are being misunderstood.


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Well, DUH, of course I didn't write this. This is for information purposes only...next time I will be sure and add footnotes for those who REALLY REALLY care and get uptight about it....***
> 
> 
> *from lucida.ann
> ...


How would anyone know you didn't write it if you didn't at the very least put quotes around it? I interpreted Greg's wife's response "you did your homework" to mean she thought you put that information together yourself. And until I found the source material, I thought you wrote it yourself as well. I do care about respecting other people's copyrighted material and I don't think it is out of line to expect that people would provide, at the very least, the name of the author and the medium in which it was published when they cut-and-paste entire articles. 

Again, is it too much to ask that we could all have this discussion without people feeling the need to make fun of the people who don't agree with them? Or that the same standards should apply with regards to the validity of information whether you agree with the opinion or not? I have been asked numerous times in this thread to provide the source of my information, and then I have had several responses after I provided my sources discounting the validity of those sources, so I think it is reasonable to expect that the people making arguments against my information would be held to the same standards.


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Lucida, I wasn't going to reply but I will. You asked what offended me about your posts, so I will give you the courtesy of an answer. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - BUT, when someone defends terrorists and even tries to make them out to be "freedom fighters or martys", I do find it extremely offensive. In light of the fact that on 9-11, on our own soil, cowardly terrorists took the lives of almost 3,000 innocent people and forever changed the lives of hundreds of thousand of people. You are concerned that this war between Hezbollah and Israel isn't "fair" to Hezbollah - was 9-11 fair to the people in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and on United flight 93? And do not assume I am comparing apples to oranges - it is the same thing. Terrorists do the same in all corners of the world on a daily basis. Not a day goes by when the news does not carry stories of suicide bombers and other attacks on innocent people. You say that you are not defending terrorism, but not only I, but many others have interpretted your posts to be doing so. And as I have stated before, I believe that inciting others was the sole purpose of the post. I am not going to debate this matter further because I respect Joe too much to cause him any further grief by having to deal with another controversial topic. Plus no matter how long we go on with theses exchanges, nothing will change. I will stand firm in my belief that terrorism and terrorists should be dealt with in whatever manner need be, and you will continue to defend their right to blow up innocent people and say that they are being misunderstood.[/B]


In other words, you are offended by my opinions. Which is unfortunate because what I have said is not anywhere near the words you just put in my mouth. 

I never called Hezbollah "freedom fighters" and I never called them "martyrs." 

I never said the war wasn't fair to Hezbollah - I said the war wasn't fair to LEBANON. Lebanon is not Hezbollah.

I never said I didn't think Hezbollah were terrorists - I simply stated the fact that the European Union and quite a few other nations do not.

I did state that Hezbollah did not participate in any way on the attacks of September 11th. The DENOUNCED those acts as WRONG.

I did not start the discussion. Nobody had any problems with this "controversial subject" until I posted an opinion that others here didn't share. What I don't understand is why it's not welcome here and why you insist on willfully misrepresenting what I have said. I am perfectly capable of discussing the issues without having to make personal remarks, and I am a bit baffled by the reactions I am getting for simply trying to state that BOTH SIDES HAVE DONE WRONG, AND TWO WRONGS DON"T MAKE A RIGHT. That is a far cry from defending terrorists. Innocent people are dying right now in Israel and Hezbollah. (EDIT - Meant to write Lebanon, not Hezbollah







)


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> Lucida, I wasn't going to reply but I will. You asked what offended me about your posts, so I will give you the courtesy of an answer. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions - BUT, when someone defends terrorists and even tries to make them out to be "freedom fighters or martys", I do find it extremely offensive. In light of the fact that on 9-11, on our own soil, cowardly terrorists took the lives of almost 3,000 innocent people and forever changed the lives of hundreds of thousand of people. You are concerned that this war between Hezbollah and Israel isn't "fair" to Hezbollah - was 9-11 fair to the people in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and on United flight 93? And do not assume I am comparing apples to oranges - it is the same thing. Terrorists do the same in all corners of the world on a daily basis. Not a day goes by when the news does not carry stories of suicide bombers and other attacks on innocent people. You say that you are not defending terrorism, but not only I, but many others have interpretted your posts to be doing so. And as I have stated before, I believe that inciting others was the sole purpose of the post. I am not going to debate this matter further because I respect Joe too much to cause him any further grief by having to deal with another controversial topic. Plus no matter how long we go on with these exchanges, nothing will change. I will stand firm in my belief that terrorism and terrorists should be dealt with in whatever manner need be, and you will continue to defend their right to blow up innocent people and say that they are being misunderstood.[/B]
























Andrea~


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Andrea~


----------



## joe (Jan 5, 2003)

*i really want to give this thread a chance and believe that most of us are adults and can keep it from getting personal, if you find it getting personal please just step away from the thread

thanks*


----------



## Deanna (Jan 14, 2005)

> I tend to be a tad distrustful of our media though. We, as the average American public are subjected to what the news channels want to show us and how they want to spin it. I have to remind myself that most of this coverage is given to us by people that are trained to emphasize their voices to impart certain emotions. The "alerts", the music used, and the tone of the reporters are all adding to our sense of the sky is falling. The middle east has had eruptions of violence since I have been old enough to make sense of the news. I tend to deal with it by praying that our nation's leaders react to such issues in a responsible manner. It's the only way I can sleep at night.[/B]


Lizzie, This is an excellent point. I was a tv news producer in the states for many years, and the US media believes in scaring people into watching. I now live in Canada, and the same news is presented so differently. When I first moved here I would read something on CBC, and then look to see how the exact same story was presented on BBC and on CNN. I highly recommend that everyone do this for a few days- you will begin to notice how the US media and the government attempt to keep you terrified so you continue to agree to give up all your personal rights.


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=226686
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have to run to church so I don't have time to finish reading the rest of page 5 and 6 but I just wanted to add my opinion.

The Hezbollah started this war by taking soldiers and shooting bombs into Israel. Now if some country with less artillery fire was doing that to the US you better believe they will be fighting back. Just because Israel has more bombs than Lebanon doesn't mean Israel is at fault. They have the right to protect themselves. And if Hezbollah was at all concerned about that they wouldn't have started this fight to begin with. Hezbollah started it, so Israel, in my opinion, should finish it. Even if Hezbollah aren't recognized as a terrorist group doesn't mean that Israel should sit there and let them bomb their country without fighting back. Just because one side is stronger than the other doesn't mean it's the stronger country's fault. As far as the citizens of Lebanon, how do you expect Israel to take out the targets that are shooting at them without hitting some citizens houses when the Hezbollah shoot their bombs from those houses? Those citizens should know they are targets and hide in shelters like the Israelis are doing. If you ask me the Hezbollah are being the unfair ones in all of this.


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> I have to run to church so I don't have time to finish reading the rest of page 5 and 6 but I just wanted to add my opinion.
> 
> The Hezbollah started this war by taking soldiers and shooting bombs into Israel. Now if some country with less artillery fire was doing that to the US you better believe they will be fighting back. Just because Israel has more bombs than Lebanon doesn't mean Israel is at fault. They have the right to protect themselves. And if Hezbollah was at all concerned about that they wouldn't have started this fight to begin with. Hezbollah started it, so Israel, in my opinion, should finish it. Even if Hezbollah aren't recognized as a terrorist group doesn't mean that Israel should sit there and let them bomb their country without fighting back. Just because one side is stronger than the other doesn't mean it's the stronger country's fault. As far as the citizens of Lebanon, how do you expect Israel to take out the targets that are shooting at them without hitting some citizens houses when the Hezbollah shoot their bombs from those houses? Those citizens should know they are targets and hide in shelters like the Israelis are doing. If you ask me the Hezbollah are being the unfair ones in all of this.[/B]


Sorry to change the subject (okay, I'm not but as I said before, I won't comment on the subject at hand any longer). I just saw the reply from Jodi and that made me realize that tomorrow is the big day for her. Jodi, I am so excited for you, finding out the sex of your precious baby. Please let us know when you find out - of course, after you let your family know - guess it is only fair that they know first!!!


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> *i really want to give this thread a chance and believe that most of us are adults and can keep it from getting personal, if you find it getting personal please just step away from the thread
> 
> thanks*[/B]


Thanks, Joe, for giving this thread a chance. I think it's a good discussion and a tough topic with lots of strong feelings. So thanks for not shutting it down, and thanks for believing in the good intentions of the people that are participating in it.



> I have to run to church so I don't have time to finish reading the rest of page 5 and 6 but I just wanted to add my opinion.
> 
> The Hezbollah started this war by taking soldiers and shooting bombs into Israel. Now if some country with less artillery fire was doing that to the US you better believe they will be fighting back. Just because Israel has more bombs than Lebanon doesn't mean Israel is at fault. They have the right to protect themselves. And if Hezbollah was at all concerned about that they wouldn't have started this fight to begin with. Hezbollah started it, so Israel, in my opinion, should finish it. Even if Hezbollah aren't recognized as a terrorist group doesn't mean that Israel should sit there and let them bomb their country without fighting back. Just because one side is stronger than the other doesn't mean it's the stronger country's fault. As far as the citizens of Lebanon, how do you expect Israel to take out the targets that are shooting at them without hitting some citizens houses when the Hezbollah shoot their bombs from those houses? Those citizens should know they are targets and hide in shelters like the Israelis are doing. If you ask me the Hezbollah are being the unfair ones in all of this.[/B]


That's fine, Jodi. It's your opinion, you have a right to express it, and although I obviously don't share the sentiment expressed, I would personally like to thank you for the fine example of a response that disagrees with the opinions expressed. 

Now, having said that, Hezbollah acted very wrongly by taking the Israeli soldiers while they were unprotected. Of that I have no disagreement. The part I am disagreeing with is that Hezbollah and Lebanon are not the same thing. Hezbollah is a political party on Lebanon who is being funded by Syria and Iran - not Lebanon itself - and Lebanon has only been it's own government for six years now, roughly two years longer than Iraq. The US shouldn't be blamed for the Iraq insurgents anymore than the country of Lebanon should be blamed for Hezbollah, and thankfully it appears as of today that Syria at least is stepping up to the plate and wants to "talk." To continue with the analogy you used, there is an organization called "The Michigan Militia." One of it's leaders was (*supposedly) responsible for the Oklahoma City Bombing of 1995. Supposing that the US goverment had responded by launching missles into South-Central Michigan (where they were headquartered) in retaliation, I would find that an equally unacceptable response. If Great Britain had launched missles into Ireland after any one of the terrorist bombings of the IRA, I would have found it equally unacceptable. I don't support terror/terrorism/terrorist and I don't defend them. What I am trying to defend are the innocent civilians that are being killed on both sides as a result (340 Lebanese to 34 Israelis), and I would also like to note that even though their country is being attacked as a result, the government of Lebanon has not responded in kind - they have been attacked, too, and they are not responding by firing into Israel, so I think the government of Lebanon deserves a little more credit and respect for their actions and the constraints that limit them. Hezbollah is not Lebanon.

Also, regarding the citizens of southern Lebanon - many of these are people living in poor rural villages. It's an undeveloped nation. There are no shelters, there is no system of highways and motor vehicles to get them evacuated as there is in Israel. These people have to gather up only the personal belongings they can carry out on their backs and hike miles and miles with young children in tow. And then what? There is no help for them. They are alive but then they are homeless, foodless, without anything but the clothes on their backs and their villages where their families have lived for generations are destroyed. These people don't know Hezbollah or politics, and if they do know of them they only know what local propoganda has told them about them because they don't have schools. That's the reality of the bombings on both sides. I am sure there are plenty of Israeli citizens who don't know or care of politics, and live in poor rural villages, who just want to live their lives in peace as well.

Well, at any rate...Have a good time at church. And maybe after you come back you will have time to read the last few pages and comment on them. I will look forward to it.

*See updated post from "Gregswife" on the actual involvement of the Michigan Militia with Tim McVeigh (or lack thereof)


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Lizzie, This is an excellent point. I was a tv news producer in the states for many years, and the US media believes in scaring people into watching. I now live in Canada, and the same news is presented so differently. When I first moved here I would read something on CBC, and then look to see how the exact same story was presented on BBC and on CNN. I highly recommend that everyone do this for a few days- you will begin to notice how the US media and the government attempt to keep you terrified so you continue to agree to give up all your personal rights.[/B]


Deanna, I agree with you, and even though I live in the US, I prefer to get my news from the CBC, the BBC, the Guardian, and yes, NPR. I know some people have issues with NPR, but at the very least they keep the drama out of the reporting. Maybe it's Diane Rehm who keeps the dramatic tone out of her interviews and she's setting the tone?









EDIT -
I wanted to add something new but I didn't want to impugn myself by making a triple-post. My double-post is bad enough as it is. So I just added it to this response, but it's not directed towards you, Deanna. Although I myself have expressed disdain for the credibility of PETA, I was wondering how much truth there is to their report that Americans in Lebanon are not being allowed to take their pets with them when they are evacuated. Here's a link to the article by PETA. 

*And for some (much needed) comic relief on a military-based subject, here is an actual recruitment ad that Japan has been airing in an attempt to get more people to join their "Navy."* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrIF7pHyO0...h=seaman%20ship
















Well, at least we know what "The Village People" are doing these days...


----------



## MissMelanie (Feb 13, 2006)

> *And for some (much needed) comic relief on a military-based subject, here is an actual recruitment ad that Japan has been airing in an attempt to get more people to join their "Navy."* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrIF7pHyO0...h=seaman%20ship
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I wanted to say two things here. 

1) I can in NO way imagine a Japanese Sailor acting like that, OH Japan has changed since I was there!

2) The saying is, "all's fair in love and war".

Melanie


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

Yes, we find out the sex of the baby tomorrow and although I am not happy about how much water I have to drink before I go I am excited to finally know if this little ball of energy in my belly is a boy or a girl. They do like their excersize lol.

Also I agree with lucida.ann that this isn't Lebanon's fault, and everyone knows that. Lebanon even offered to help fight Hezbollah and I was disappointed that even after Lebanon was helping Israel with Hezbollah Israel still broke through the boarder and took the fight to Lebanon. Although it seems to be good that Israel isn't under attack as much as it was before they did this, I still didn't agree with them when they did this. 
Now with that said I will again say that I still think Israel has the right to protect themselves. Even though it wasn't Lebanon who attacked Israel and it was the Hezbollah, the Hezbollah are in Lebanon so that's where the fighting is taking place. I know it's not Lebanon's fault but again, do you expect Israel to just sit there and take the bombs being shot at them, or do you think they should protect themselves?


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Andrea~


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Although, I do have my opinions on this subject, I have not had the time to "keep up" with this thread. I have, most certainly followed it through by now. It is definately not CHEAP ENTERNAINMENT, as another poster would like to call it. 

That being said, I must add that "lucida.ann" is pretty awesome. She is simply bringing another point of view to the other side. Are you kidding? What's wrong with that. Understanding, is the key weapon. I, for one, appreciate it. Simply educating. Nothing more, Nothing less.

I will now get back to my regular scheduled program. 

One more comment, this entire thread has been VERY thought provoking. I have read, with interest, and all of the postings have been an asset.


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Although, I do have my opinions on this subject, I have not had the time to "keep up" with this thread. I have, most certainly followed it through by now. It is definately not CHEAP ENTERNAINMENT, as another poster would like to call it.
> 
> That being said, I must add that "lucida.ann" is pretty awesome. She is simply bringing another point of view to the other side. Are you kidding? What's wrong with that. Understanding, is the key weapon. I, for one, appreciate it. Simply educating. Nothing more, Nothing less.
> 
> ...


WOW! Thank you, 3maltmom.


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

I cannot find it now but just last week I could have sworn I heard CNN say that Lebanon agreed to help Israel fight the Hezbollah, but I can't find it online anywhere. 
Anyway my husband said he thought he heard CNN say the same thing but then Lebanon recanted and told Israel (when Israel was getting ready to cross the boarder) that if they crossed into Lebanon that they would join Hezbollah's fight instead. So if I heard right the first time, Israel messed things up when they crossed the boarder.

*And yes it was after this whole thing started that Lebanon offered to help. It was just like last week, maybe not even a full week, just a few days ago.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

Boy it is taking everything in me to keep my mouth shut.


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> Boy it is taking everything in me to keep my mouth shut.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



HA HA Carole - remember your blood pressure!!!!


----------



## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

> > Lizzie, This is an excellent point. I was a tv news producer in the states for many years, and the US media believes in scaring people into watching. I now live in Canada, and the same news is presented so differently. When I first moved here I would read something on CBC, and then look to see how the exact same story was presented on BBC and on CNN. I highly recommend that everyone do this for a few days- you will begin to notice how the US media and the government attempt to keep you terrified so you continue to agree to give up all your personal rights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Deanna (Jan 14, 2005)

> you forgot to add Fox News who I personally think they are the worst.[/B]


Yeah I don't even consider Fox news _real_ news, it is the most ridiculous of them all!


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> you forgot to add Fox News who I personally think they are the worst.
> 
> Lucida.ann it is courageous of you to try to defend Hezbollah. Unfortunately it's undefensible. I respect you for that. Not everything is black and white. CNN this afternoon had a very good documentary called "Inside Hezbollah", very informative. And Lucida is right on one point. Hezbollah does not want to go to war with the United States. And when you look back at history, there are many States to blame for the crisis we are in today. Sadly our leaders of today don't take lessons from history. And sadly, most people don't know the world history. They prefer to watch soap sitcoms. And our leaders are happy that the people is not more informed, because if it were, they would vote differently. And as long as the events are not touching themself, they don't care what is happening every where else. I don't want to go further into this, because it would open another can of worms.[/B]



Thanks, Maltese Jane, and I do appreciate your response. I would say that I think some actions of Hezbollah are indefensible as well. I won't defend kidnapping, that's for sure, and I won't defend killing innocent people on either side of the border. I don't like killing, or violence, or war. There is just so much history to that region - generations of bloodshed and warfare and human suffering, and again you are correct that most people do not know the entire history of that conflict, let alone world history. 

Thank you again for understanding that what I am trying to say boils down to "things are not always black and white. "


----------



## Teddyandme (Feb 6, 2005)

Lucida,

Debbie and I were talking earlier today and we were both so very proud of you....it is not easy to stand up and voice an opinion that is so universally disliked. I admire you for that. I know that my writing or Debbie's writing also may not be recieved well, but I had to write because I, like you, try and show the other side sometimes even when I do not neccesarily agree with the position I am presenting. It seems that you have said a couple times that you are just trying to educate on what that other side may be. I have for years been so disappointed with the news as we get it...it is not just this issue it is every issue that we hear...it is always slanted. 

I have been fortunate in life to learn that there are always two sides...and how will we ever meet in the middle if we don't know one whole side. It seems unfair to ask a person to form an opinion if they only have half that story. I will be honest also and say I know nothing about what is happening in the Middle East and the reason is simple...I have no faith that I am getting the whole story so I have chosen to stick my head in the sand...not a good thing for sure. I thank you Lucida first because it really is hardest to stand alone in a chorus of the other side. But I also thank every person on this thread that has helped me get a bit of an education on what is going on. 

I have been impressed with every single person on this thread because you all care so deeply and have taken the time to help a novice such as myself understand what some of the issues are....and for that I am very thankful. I would love to have you all over for dinner so we could really explore some amazing debatable items. I am sure we all would have a blast and I assure you I would have enough wine to quell any high blood preasure issues.







Since we are all so far apart across the world I guess we will just have to continue here...

I will thank you all in advance for sharing. I truly hope that this thread continues.

Susan

P.S. I could have writen a PM to you Lucida but that really would not be fair...if you are brave enough to debate on the "other" side then it would be cowardly for me not to publicly support that debate.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> Lucida,
> 
> Debbie and I were talking earlier today and we were both so very proud of you....it is not easy to stand up and voice an opinion that is so universally disliked. I admire you for that. I know that my writing or Debbie's writing also may not be recieved well, but I had to write because I, like you, try and show the other side sometimes even when I do not neccesarily agree with the position I am presenting. It seems that you have said a couple times that you are just trying to educate on what that other side may be. I have for years been so disappointed with the news as we get it...it is not just this issue it is every issue that we hear...it is always slanted.
> 
> ...


Susan,

You know how I feel about you I just think your great, and you are right about her (Lucida) standing for her point of view,I guess that is what a debate is all about.. I do however believe strongly in my convictions, but that doesn't mean I do not respect others. I will never in a million years change my mind about Hezbollah, and I will never forget when the Marines were in Lebanon on a humanitarian mission and their barracks were blown to bits and 241 of them died, they were there to help and instead paid with their lives and Hezbollah proudly claimed responsibility....I think the United States is wrong on alot of things and foreign policy is one, that does not change the fact wrong is wrong .. If you look right and left then up and down, they are still killers .. And as far as the news goes I don't get my info from them. I have studied alot on the Middle East in general, no I don't have a big college diploma, but I still am not a moron







and I know this Hezbollah are the worst of the worst...









Ya know I love ya surf...
































Andrea~


----------



## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

> Lucida,
> 
> Debbie and I were talking earlier today and we were both so very proud of you....it is not easy to stand up and voice an opinion that is so universally disliked. I admire you for that. I know that my writing or Debbie's writing also may not be recieved well, but I had to write because I, like you, try and show the other side sometimes even when I do not neccesarily agree with the position I am presenting. It seems that you have said a couple times that you are just trying to educate on what that other side may be. I have for years been so disappointed with the news as we get it...it is not just this issue it is every issue that we hear...it is always slanted.
> 
> ...


Count me in, better late than never. I'm with Susan and Deb. (Especially Susan, have you seen my head stuck in the sand next to yours???) I may not agree 100% with you, Lucida, but I always enjoy hearing the "grays" in the situations. It's never black and white.

Susan - I will bring the wine to that dinner!


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> no I don't have a big college diploma, but I still am not a moron
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, no, Andrea, you have got it ALL WRONG ~ You have to have the "BIG COLLEGE DIPLOMA" in order to be a moron. ha ha









But back on task...Thank you Susan, and Debbie, and Bonnie, for communicating - perhaps better than I have - that I am just trying to present another dimension to the situation. I couldn't ask for anything but to be heard.

MalteseJane and Deanna, I agree about Fox News. I think they are neither Fair nor Balanced.


----------



## Teddyandme (Feb 6, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=227515
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhhhh Andrea,

The reason I wrote is because I respected each and every one of your rights to voice an opinion or in this case each side. One of the reason I wrote is (and please correct me if I am wrong here Lucida) *Not* because I agree with Lucida side of the debate but because I was hearing Lucida say that this is the other side of the story, which she did not state if she agreed with or not. I repeatedly heard her say that she was not stating her opinion but the other side of the story as she has heard it in other news reports. 

I personally am not qualified to make a judgement, although I have a feeling that I would probably have to say that Isreal has every right to defend themselves against anyone who attacks them...it seems to me that the problem comes in when the enemy is ensconsed in a country that may not actually agree with the politics of those who are attacking from within their country...very complicated issue and with the size of the headache I have right now...one I am not prepared to debate tonight....

It was mentioned on this thread (not by you Andrea )things about 9/11 and I got the impression that this was somehow related...again, I have never heard that Lebanon was at fault for 9/11 but if they were in fact at fault...why are we not bombing them....I guess my point here is that I think we need to be careful in our calling up emotions of 9/11....I live in NJ, an area that was extremely hard hit...I personally knew people in the 9/11 attacks and I personally want to make sure whomever is responsible for that horrible day is brought to justice, but I don't think it is fair to call the emotions up for possibilties...that is what got us into a war with Irag.

Again, thank you too Andrea for speaking up and helping me to better understand the issues...I really appriciate it


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=227538
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks ...


----------



## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

It has been said that I mentioned 9-11 strictly to "call up emotions", which is an erroneous statement. It was in an effort to say that is was an act of terrorism and that all terrorists should be dealt with. It doesn't matter where they are, they should be stopped by whatever means neccessary. I see that no reference was made to the fact that the Oklahoma City Bombing was also referenced. It has been mentioned time and again in this forum that I lost 2 very close family members in that bombing, so the fact that it would be mentioned in a post directed at me, I see as a direct attempt to "call up emotions". The reason for my posting is that some members seem to put so much stock in Wikipedia, so the following was copied from their website: 

"Timothy McVeigh, erroneously associated with the Militia by the mainstream media, but the Michigan Militia was later declared by the FBI to be clear of involvement with McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing. persists."

Timothy McVeigh was NOT a member of the Michigan Militia as stated previously in this thread. He tried to align himself with several militia groups, and did in fact, find refuge at Elhoim City. My cousin had the opportunity to actually visit the compound and speak to Pastor Butler about this. I sat in the courtroom almost everyday of Timothy McVeigh's trial, and there are 2 books out that involves very lengthy interviews with members of my family, so I do know what I am speaking of.


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> It has been said that I mentioned 9-11 strictly to "call up emotions", which is an erroneous statement. It was in an effort to say that is was an act of terrorism and that all terrorists should be dealt with. It doesn't matter where they are, they should be stopped by whatever means neccessary. I see that no reference was made to the fact that the Oklahoma City Bombing was also referenced. It has been mentioned time and again in this forum that I lost 2 very close family members in that bombing, so the fact that it would be mentioned in a post directed at me, I see as a direct attempt to "call up emotions". The reason for my posting is that some members seem to put so much stock in Wikipedia, so the following was copied from their website:
> 
> "Timothy McVeigh, erroneously associated with the Militia by the mainstream media, but the Michigan Militia was later declared by the FBI to be clear of involvement with McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing. persists."
> 
> Timothy McVeigh was NOT a member of the Michigan Militia as stated previously in this thread. He tried to align himself with several militia groups, and did in fact, find refuge at Elhoim City. My cousin had the opportunity to actually visit the compound and speak to Pastor Butler about this. I sat in the courtroom almost everyday of Timothy McVeigh's trial, and there are 2 books out that involves very lengthy interviews with members of my family, so I do know what I am speaking of.[/B]


Whoa, now. I was the person who broached the Oklahoma City Bombing subject, and I had NO idea that you lost family members in that bombing, so please rest assured it was not mentioned with any intent to "call up emotions." If there is one thing I am not interested in fostering in this thread, it would be the fanning of emotional flames. Also, it was not "mentioned in a post directed at" you, unless you are Jodi, because that's who the response was addressed to, and that's whose response was quoted when I made the analogy.

I would like the opportunity to explain what my exact motivation was, if I may. It was to demonstrate that the Michigan Militia was initially blamed for McVeigh's actions, much as Lebanon is now being blamed by some for Hezbollah's actions, and as it turned out, the Michigan Militia had no control over McVeigh's actions. I raised this to highlight a distinct parallel between the two situations, and to illustrate the idea that Lebanon could very well have no control over Hezbollah's actions, despite Hezbollah's attempts to "align" itself with them. But even if that's the case, the damage to Lebanon's reputation has already been done, because nobody - except those like you who very closely monitored the situation - paid any attention to the follow-up information that exhonerated the Michigan Militia in the O.C. Bombing, and there's no reason to believe that any larger segment of the population would be paying attention if/when information was released to exhonerate Lebanon.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Hi,
I know I' m back














, but I have to say this please.. Lebanon is not blamless, Lebanon has been home to Hezbollah since 1983







, so I am really kinda of sick of the statement they are not to blame. They were offered help on many occasions to rid themselves of Hezbollah, and never once ceased the opportunity.
Should a whole community be blamed for the actions of some , NO they shouldn't, but we were blamed werent we? 
That is why they killed almost 3,000 people, did my cousin 21 who was a firefighter, deserve to be blown to bits , NO, did my aunt who 5 years later is still mentally and emotionally "Dead" deserve to loose her son, NO, Did my friend Adrienne who just got married and started her life with such promise, deserve to get on that train that morning so excited about her new job and calling me asking me how to make a really good Italian sauce deserve to die , NO.. Did my neighbor who I grew up with , who always wanted to be a firefighter, and who's wife just gave birth to their 2 week old baby deserve to die, NO.. They are always going to be innocent victims in this world always, especially in war, but what does that mean, That because Israel has a stronger army and you see all this destruction in Lebanon, that the goverment of Lebanon is blameless? Sorry I just don't believe that , there are innocent civilians, but the goverment is responsible. Rockets, missiles, have been sent over the years from Lebanon, and if the so called goverment of Lebanon does not stop it, well then Israel should.. Sorry but this my firm belief.. I praise Israel for stepping up to the plate and doing what even the arab countries are afraid to do.The arab countries know full well when the terrorists are done with us, they are coming for them...

Thank You,
Andrea~


----------



## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> Hi,
> I know I' m back
> 
> 
> ...


You don't have to apologize that this is your firm belief. However, I and Jodi and several others firmly believe that Lebanon is not at fault, and are entitled to express our beliefs as well. I also don't believe that the current actions of Israel are going to stop Hezbollah, I think they are going to make the problem worse.


----------



## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> It has been said that I mentioned 9-11 strictly to "call up emotions", which is an erroneous statement. It was in an effort to say that is was an act of terrorism and that all terrorists should be dealt with. It doesn't matter where they are, they should be stopped by whatever means neccessary. I see that no reference was made to the fact that the Oklahoma City Bombing was also referenced. It has been mentioned time and again in this forum that I lost 2 very close family members in that bombing, so the fact that it would be mentioned in a post directed at me, I see as a direct attempt to "call up emotions". The reason for my posting is that some members seem to put so much stock in Wikipedia, so the following was copied from their website:
> 
> "Timothy McVeigh, erroneously associated with the Militia by the mainstream media, but the Michigan Militia was later declared by the FBI to be clear of involvement with McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing. persists."
> 
> Timothy McVeigh was NOT a member of the Michigan Militia as stated previously in this thread. He tried to align himself with several militia groups, and did in fact, find refuge at Elhoim City. My cousin had the opportunity to actually visit the compound and speak to Pastor Butler about this. I sat in the courtroom almost everyday of Timothy McVeigh's trial, and there are 2 books out that involves very lengthy interviews with members of my family, so I do know what I am speaking of.[/B]





> Hi,
> I know I' m back
> 
> 
> ...










I am sorry for the losses that both of you suffered in these senseless acts of terrorism.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=227597
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank You, I appreciate that...Andrea~


----------



## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

> It was mentioned on this thread (not by you Andrea )things about 9/11 and I got the impression that this was somehow related...again, I have never heard that Lebanon was at fault for 9/11 but if they were in fact at fault...why are we not bombing them....I guess my point here is that I think we need to be careful in our calling up emotions of 9/11....I live in NJ, an area that was extremely hard hit...I personally knew people in the 9/11 attacks and I personally want to make sure whomever is responsible for that horrible day is brought to justice, but I don't think it is fair to call the emotions up for possibilities...that is what got us into a war with Irag.[/B]


I don't think anyone said 9/11 was related to Hezbollah or Lebanon. And as Greg's wife said, it was just a comparison of terrorism. I think when the US went to war with Afghanistan they were going after those responsible for 9/11 but then got off track by going after Iraq. I don't think it was a bad thing we have Sadam behind bars facing trial for his crimes against humanity but I don't believe he was directly related to 9/11. We should have stuck with Afghanistan till we found Bin Laden and then went after Sadam. 

And on a side note I was clueless that people thought Timothy McVeigh was tied with the Michigan militia. I always thought he acted on his own accord. So not everyone thought he was associated with anyone.


----------



## waistfull (Jan 8, 2006)

I think the United States is the greatest country in the world. Okay now here's a joke I saw on TV from a comedian, "No wonder people in other countries hate us. We all say how our country is the best in the whole world and most of us have never left the country. Maybe other countries could have great things. Maybe they give things away for free in other countries, like Canada gives away free medical insurance." I laughed so hard because it seems so true. I still think the U.S. is #1!!!


----------



## Bob'sYourUncle (Jul 23, 2006)

I've been lurking here for a while and am relieved to see that you regulars are willing to accept that there is more than one valid opinion on this issue.

I'd like to state unequivocally that I do not support Hezbollah's actions along the border. Israel's response, however, cannot be considered anything but terrorism. Please take a moment to glance at these articles:

*UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says:*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5217176.stm

*QANA, Lebanon, July 30 — A series of Israeli airstrikes in this small mountain town were the deadliest single attack in the war here so far. [At least 56 people were killed, most of them children, The Associated Press reported.]*

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/world/mi...artner=homepage


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I've been lurking here for a while and am relieved to see that you regulars are willing to accept that there is more than one valid opinion on this issue.
> 
> I'd like to state unequivocally that I do not support Hezbollah's actions along the border. Israel's response, however, cannot be considered anything but terrorism. Please take a moment to glance at these articles:
> 
> ...


I suggest that anyone who thinks they are learning anything from this thread to, instead, do your own research where rather than inflammatory headlines and snipets of quotes, you can read a variety of articles in their entirety and form your own opinions based on complete information. In my opinion, this thread has caused more harm and hurt here on SM than it is worth.


----------



## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

> I suggest that anyone who thinks they are learning anything from this thread to, instead, do your own research where rather than inflammatory headlines and snipets of quotes, you can read a variety of articles in their entirety and form your own opinions based on complete information. In my opinion, this thread has caused more harm and hurt here on SM than it is worth.[/B]


Bravo, Sher








Wise and 'measured' words indeed.


----------



## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I don't base my opinion on a thread from a forum and I hope people will be smart enough and not do it either.


----------



## Carla (Aug 30, 2005)

*Some People*

Some people believe the Holocaust never happened
Some people believe 911 was orchestrated by the US government
Some people believe their opinion is based on fact
Some people believe they have all the facts
Some people believe their truth is the only truth

Some people only hear what they want to hear
Some people listen
Some people are judgmental and self-righteous
Some people are not

Some people use derogatory terms to describe different ethnicities, nationalities, or religions
Some people believe words don't hurt
Some people are offended by another's opinion
Some people respect another’s right to have a difference of opinion

Some people are in a war that was started by a difference of opinion

Carla & Shotzi


----------



## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=230842
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said Sher and I agree with you, I was hoping that this thread had taken it's place in the archives and laid to rest...


----------

