# Selling Finished Show Dogs ..



## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I hope this thread isn't going to cause any problems but I just wanted to get your thoughts. I recently discovered a male finished champion Maltese has been sold again to his third home! He is probably around 4 or 5 years old if I remember correctly. I don't know why I suddenly got very upset when I found out. I kept asking .. don't they love him .. why is he being passed around like a piece of meat. I know the breeder was pretty upset when she found out the Malt was sold the first time but she was assured that he is going to a good home. I am sure she knows nothing about this 3rd sell even though it is probably a good home.

Now, my question is .. why are finished champions sold from home to home? 

I can understand if:
1) A male is sold right after he finished his championship - many breeders don't need another male but they are too nice to not finish
2) An older male or one that didn't produce well and was sold to a pet home to be "retired" to live a happy family life
3) The breeder had certain circumstances which prevented them from keeping as many Maltese (ex. new legislation, health, life changes)

Now in this case, none of the above 3 applies. I just can't understand why a healthy male who is producing well is being sold from home to home! I just keep thinking .. is it greed? is it money? Help make me feel better .. I am hoping there is a good reason here.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Ohhh, that is indeed sad. Was the male neutered before he was originally sold?


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

Sher, I thought the same thing.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I wish I had the answer but I don't. I am like Sher I wander if her was neutered before being sold the first time. 

I will say that the original breeder may have sold him because what he was producing in her lines was not what she desired. And if he was young and she trusted another breeder with him to use as a stud that would be understandable. 

But not to get passed around like this. When will it end. That baby needs a secure home to ever feel secure. It saddens me that this is happening to him. I hope it is not because he is a hiker! :smcry:


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

:bysmilie: It's very sad and downright cruel IMO :bysmilie:


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Perhaps the breeder is new and didn't require a proper contract
to control where the champion went. It would be difficult to guess
since we know so little about the circumstances. It could vary from
home to home and possibly be a more urgent reason than we know.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

I don't know about this instance, but I do know of a breeder (you would DIE if I told you which top Malt breeder it was) who sold her championed dog to someone unneutered. Supposedly this breeder did this because she trusted the person to have the dog neutered. Well guess what? They didn't have the dog neutered and bred it and sold the puppies.

I never found out if the breeder knew, but she must have because she was supposed to get paperwork saying the dog had been neutered.

It just makes me SICK!


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

In this case, the breeder sold the dog as a show pup to another breeder. The second breeder finished him and sold it unneteured to another home. The other home (potentially with permission from breeder 2) sold it to another breeder who is still using him as a stud. I find this so sad and wonder if a stricter contract can even prevent something like this from happening. I know the original breeder really trusted the breeder she sold the dog too but people change.

I am begining to understand why it is so hard for newbies to get into the breed and get a show dog. People just don't always do right. Anyways, this post isn't meant to flame anyone or speak badly about anyone. I just wanted to see if I can get more perspectives on why it happens and if there is even anything to do to prevent it.

It's hard for breeders to sell their babies ... and it seems like it is a gamble and really just trust. Even if there is a strict contract, the legal systems can take a really long time. I know of a case that the system took so long that the dog already had several litters before it was even addressed.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Charmaine,

I also find this terribly sad. I can't think of reasons other than greed for what you have described (maybe I just don't have more imagination). 

It does take a lot of trust to place a dog in a home. Any dog, in any home. I know that when I did rescue placements (always neutered) I found my trust abused. We had more than one dog returned by owners who had said all the right things to get the dog and then seemed to become someone else after the placement. 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that it is a huge responsibility to be a breeder. Not only do they have to work to make sure that the dogs they place are not mistreated and misused, they also have to think about what will happen in succeeding generations. 

I hope that this boy is being well-loved in his new environment, not just used for his reproductive potential. rayer:


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

I think this goes on more than you know about. It's not a new thing either. You could associate this with raising and breeding cattle, horses, sheep and hogs. The problem with doing this with dogs is that we as a society at this time we don't consider dogs to be property and handled like other animals in a breeding program. Some people do. To better your breeding program and keep the number of animals you have in your kennel down you find homes for the dogs who need them the most. 
As for selling someone a show potential to a person and then they decide they don't want the dog they find it a new owner who really is interested in the dog and then gets its championship. After it is a champion this person sells it to someone else who wants him in their breeding program. Goes on all the time. We just don't hear about it. It's a courtesy for the buyer to let the breeder know what is happening to the dog they bred, but not every owner will observe this courtesy. I agree with Charmaine that this is a reason why breeder's won't let their dogs go to a newbie. But, right now, if we breeder's don't allow some of our dogs to go to new people we won't have any new people in the breed. It's a catch 21.

Tina


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

I feel very sad for doggies that are treated this way. Matter of fact, it makes me sick.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> In this case, the breeder sold the dog as a show pup to another breeder. The second breeder finished him and sold it unneteured to another home. The other home (potentially with permission from breeder 2) sold it to another breeder who is still using him as a stud. I find this so sad and wonder if a stricter contract can even prevent something like this from happening. I know the original breeder really trusted the breeder she sold the dog too but people change.
> 
> I am begining to understand why it is so hard for newbies to get into the breed and get a show dog. People just don't always do right. Anyways, this post isn't meant to flame anyone or speak badly about anyone. I just wanted to see if I can get more perspectives on why it happens and if there is even anything to do to prevent it.
> 
> It's hard for breeders to sell their babies ... and it seems like it is a gamble and really just trust. Even if there is a strict contract, the legal systems can take a really long time. I know of a case that the system took so long that the dog already had several litters before it was even addressed.[/B]


It seems to me that the easiest way to prevent a situation like this would be for Breeder #1 to put a clause in her sale contract saying "If for any reason you cannot keep this dog he must be returned to me with no reimbursement of purchase price." This gives Breeder #1 the option of neutering the dog and placing him in a pet home, using him in her own breeding program, or selling/giving him to another breeder of her own choosing who she trusts. And hopefully with a clause like this any potential purchaser will give alot of thought to commitment vs. cost before making a decision.

Newcomers to the show world should not be the ones to be punished across the board for someone else's irresponsible actions. Just my humble opinion....

MaryH


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## Deborah (Jan 8, 2006)

When I got Rylee I was told to have her spayed and turn in the paperwork to my breeder so I could register her. I decided I did not want to register her so I never let my breeder know that I had her spayed. In my case even if she wasn't spayed the puppies could never be registered. I would never ever breed a dog.


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

I bought my puppy with a limited or restricted AKC registraton which stipulated that I could not use him for breeding purposes and was to get him neutered as part of the agreement. There was no way anyone could FORCE me to do this, but having signed the agreement it was what I had every intention of honoring. And I did, at 4 1/2 mos of age I had him neutered. However, if I had not and if I had used him for breeding stock (since he has such an illustrious pedigree with all those champions in there!) I would not have been able to sell an AKC registered pup to anyone. Because he was on record as having a restricted registration and could not have puppies sanctioned by the AKC.

So how are people getting around rules like this with the retired champions and using them for stud? Can't the AKC also put stipulations on those dogs when these situations seem to be occurring?

I don't claim to know anything about the show or the breeding world of Maltese. But I am curious about this aspect of it. If one or two areas can be policed, why can't this area be as well?

Cyndi


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

> So how are people getting around rules like this with the retired champions and using them for stud? Can't the AKC also put stipulations on those dogs when these situations seem to be occurring?
> 
> I don't claim to know anything about the show or the breeding world of Maltese. But I am curious about this aspect of it. If one or two areas can be policed, why can't this area be as well?
> 
> Cyndi[/B]


Your not "getting around rules". If there isn't a contract stating what the breeder expects and the new owner understands what the breeder wants, there isn't any "rules". There are "curtesies", but not all people abide by those either. 

AKC would rather not be involved with these types of situations. It states it in its rules and regulations. With so many other registeries that have cropped up, people can register their litter's and the pet buyer's who aren't informed don't know the difference. I thought there was only one registery for dogs when I got my Airedale. She was registered ACA. Never heard of it. Now, I am informed. 

As a breeder, if you do not mark out the box for limited AKC registration and the new owner registers the pup with a full registration, you cannot change it. There are no exceptions. You cannot change it. AKC is getting lenient in some areas because they are loosing breeder's to other registries. In fact as the breeder of a dog or bitch you are not able to find out who owns the dog or bitch after it is no longer in your name. You find out about it in situations such as what Charmaine has described. 
Tina


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> I bought my puppy with a limited or restricted AKC registraton which stipulated that I could not use him for breeding purposes and was to get him neutered as part of the agreement. There was no way anyone could FORCE me to do this, but having signed the agreement it was what I had every intention of honoring. And I did, at 4 1/2 mos of age I had him neutered. However, if I had not and if I had used him for breeding stock (since he has such an illustrious pedigree with all those champions in there!) I would not have been able to sell an AKC registered pup to anyone. Because he was on record as having a restricted registration and could not have puppies sanctioned by the AKC.
> 
> So how are people getting around rules like this with the retired champions and using them for stud? Can't the AKC also put stipulations on those dogs when these situations seem to be occurring?
> 
> ...


As Tina said, people are not gettng around the rules in the situation that started this thread. Breeder #1 sold the dog with full registration (which also means full breeding rights) to Breeder #2. Either the dog was sold without a contract or the contract did not contain any "resale/rehome" restrictions. As for the sale of the dog from Breeder #2 to Breeder #3 and so on, it does not sound like this dog was ever sold as a "retired" champion, but instead as a stud dog will full registration and breeding rights.

If a breeder has specific expectations and/or restrictions, that breeder needs to include them in his/her contract. In the case where there is a breach of contract the parties involved need to settle their dispute on their own, with the help of a mediator, or in a court of law. The AKC and, for that matter, the national breed clubs are not policing organizations, and they have no jurisdictional or enforcement rights in a contract dispute. That being said, I do believe that the AKC will abide by whatever a court of law decides. As for selling/placing a retired champion, the breeders I know take care of spay/neuter, dental and vaccinations before placing and the new owner is asked to reimburse the breeder for those expenses. Doing it this way insures that there will be no future breedings.

MaryH


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

Okay, gotcha! I see now what the problem (if it is a problem) is: There were not registration limitations set upon when the dog was registered. Or the other option would be for the original owner to neuter/spay the dog prior to re-selling/re-homing him/her? Which makes this whole issue a moot point?

Thanks for explaining in further detail, and correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.

Cyndi


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Mary with you saying this brings up another question that I have. I have heard time after time that the contract is not worth the paper it is written on. Is there anything that I can add to mine that will make it worth more than that? I have spent many many hours trying to fine tune it for the safety of the dog. And do not release the AKC paperwork until after the puppy is spayed/neutered. What else can I do. I respect your commitment to the breed. And look up to people such as yourself for guidance. 

I hope this question is not to far off topic. I always worry about it. That is why with the babies that I have now that are champion sired about letting them go. I need to know if there is more that I can do. Here is a link to my contract if you don't mind when you find the time to go look it over. 
http://www.clabecmaltese.com/OurContract.html

*Thank you in advance!*


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

> Mary with you saying this brings up another question that I have. I have heard time after time that the contract is not worth the paper it is written on. Is there anything that I can add to mine that will make it worth more than that? I have spent many many hours trying to fine tune it for the safety of the dog. And do not release the AKC paperwork until after the puppy is spayed/neutered. What else can I do. I respect your commitment to the breed. And look up to people such as yourself for guidance.
> 
> I hope this question is not to far off topic. I always worry about it. That is why with the babies that I have now that are champion sired about letting them go. I need to know if there is more that I can do. Here is a link to my contract if you don't mind when you find the time to go look it over.
> http://www.clabecmaltese.com/OurContract.html
> ...


Becky, I'm not a lawyer and am not qualified to give an opinion or advice on your contract. Additionally, the laws vary from state to state so your best advice would come from a lawyer who knows the laws of the state where you live. Having worked with and for lawyers most of my life the one thing I do know is that a contract, no matter how well written, is only as good as your willingness to enforce it should the purchaser not live up to the terms of the contract. Enforcing any contract costs time and money. I've never bred a litter so have never sold a puppy. If I ever do breed and sell I would do what we've done in rescue the few times that we've placed a puppy too young to be spayed/neutered into an adoptive home and that is to increase the adoption fee by $300 and refund that money upon proof of spay/neuter. I would give the registration papers at the time of sale, but it would absolutely be a limited registration. My feeling is that withholding the registration papers is not going to stop someone from breeding if that is what they plan to do. Limited registration is not going to stop someone from breeding either. But the thought of getting a $300 refund upon proof of spay/neuter would have a lot of puppy buyers counting the days until their puppy is old enough to have the surgery. Sad but true ....

Here's a link to a very good article published in the May 2007 AKC Gazette. It was written by a breeder/lawyer whose area of expertise is dog laws.

http://www.lawfordogs.com/assets/PDFs/Dog_Breeders.pdf

MaryH


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Thank you Mary for the feedback. I will be going to that link and try to get some sound advise. I guess I really need to find a lawyer that deals with this type of thing. 

Again I look up to you, althougth you may not be a breeder.


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## BacisMommy (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm new to this discussion, having been extremely busy raising two little Maltese and acclimating a beautiful adult girl to our home, but I wanted to say this to anyone who may be hesitant about buying a retired show dog: Under ordinary sale circumstances, without murky legal areas, I think you will be overjoyed with a young, healthy retired show dog, bred or unbred.

We recently bought a retired champion female who celebrated her 4th birthday with us last week, and she is a total joy in every way. I watch her playing with our two 7 month old Maltese boys, and I realize that she is such a puppy at heart. She is the loudest, the fastest, the nosiest, the funniest.. I can't tell you how much we love her, and she seems to love us dearly too. I know she was extremely loved and well cared for by her former owner, a breeder, because she adjusted to our home in a matter of a day at the most. 
She has already lived an exciting life, the way I choose to see it... She was bred by a kennel whose owners moved on to Yorkies. They finished out her CH status, then sold all their dogs here and there. She went to a very good home with a responsible breeding program in a private home. To the best of our knowledge, she has had 2, maybe 3 litters of puppies, and came to us 3 months after her last litter was born. 
We had her spayed as soon as she was able after her last C Section, within a month of bringing her home, and she recovered from her spay quicker than our boys did from their neutering. She is an amazing little spitfire who loves EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. She plays with our Maltese boys from the time they get up in the AM until we go to bed at night. She learned the name we chose to call her forever very quickly and when I call out her former name from the first owner, she doesn't budge or even look at me.. She's smart, this one!!  I could go on and on about our beautiful girl, but suffice it to say that we paid quite a bit for her and we received our money's worth and so much more. 

The furbabies are all equal at our house, and I know she loves us as much as the boys we have had from early puppyhood do. I did pass up a few females labeled as quiet and perhaps a bit shy, and went with the little clown because our house is just one big doggie playpen.  She's living life large.. 
Please consider a retiring champion breeder if all other things about the sale seem above board and honest. If you are like us, you won't regret adding a charming adult to your Maltese household.  

If you have any questions about purchasing or obtaining a retired champion Maltese, I will be happy to help if I can. 

Amanda


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Hi Amanda,

This thread is not about purchasing retired champions or breeding dogs. I am very supportive of it. I just don't feel great when breeding dogs are passed from breeder to breeder without the original breeder ever knowing. These dogs don't retire to a loving pet home - they are continued to be used as a stud (although the new breeder homes may be great).


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