# Does "not showing" make for a bad breeder?



## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

:excl:


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

It means that we don't know if their dogs are of a lesser quality. They are never evaluated against other dogs in an unbiased situation. The idea is that people breed to improve the quality of the breed and finishing a dog is an indicator.

Showing can be very expensive but it doesn't always have to be. There are many dog shows and no matter where the person is, there will be one within driving distance. Dogs can be owner handled and not require a handler. It takes time to learn and perfect the grooming but when there is a will .. there is a way.

I do hope you get opinions from the other side. I am a pet owner who is starting to move into showing. I do not breed. I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs. I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income. They basically live off their dogs. I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check. I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job. They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.


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## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

I am a small breeder too, but I never intended to be a breeder.(I don't like the word Breeder) I DON'T BREED FOR THE MONEY this is not the way I make my living. I do breed to improve the quality of my fur kidz even though I am not in the showing end of the dill. But I feel like I have some show quality dogs as well. I bought my first Maltese in 2000 an I fell so much in love with my first I had to have more. I wanted to bless other families with maltese at a reasonable price that a normal person like myself could afford. I have found out the hard way how dirty breeders are. I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I got there plus laid more money in her hand these dogs I paid show quality prices for an got a good screwing let me tell you.(These dogs was not cheap an mine looked better then these as they got older I seen) was promised breeding rights an AKC papers(I never got papers at all on them) an I beleived this lady, boy was I fooled that women became the lady from H------- plus she stole two of my dogs that she was to sell for me that I took there cause she led me to beleive PA gets so much more $ for there dogs then Oklahoma well(I trusted this lady) I was screwed on that I never got a dime out of those two dogs ither.(I worry about my babies where they are at an if they are ok all the time) Made this lady over 13 dog dresses an over 20 dog beds an she did this to me I don't ever like to even say I am a breeder after the screwing I got from that lady. Later found out she is in a law suit now with other wrong doings I hope she gets all her dogs taken away from her she don't deserve one dog if she is treating others like this no way can she love her fur kidz to treat others like this.(this is her only income an if I had to treat people like this to make a living I would go get me a real job before I could do that I have a big heart an never could I treat people like she did me) People can call me a BYB so be it I am not in it for the money I am doing it cause these maltese has brought me so much happines an I want to share that to other families at a affordable price.( I have placed few babies at no charge cause I new they could not afford one an new I could see them all the time) None of my kids liive in cages all them live under our feet an it is a very clean inviroment these fur kidz are my human kidz they are my life. Sorry this was so long but it upsets me to hear B Y B I am not one of those sure there might be some that are but that is not myself. Just my exsperience I have had wanted to share!
Teaco


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I tell people that showing does not make a reputable breeder, but not showing is a red flag to find someone else. 

A representative sample of the breeder's dogs should be shown to their championship to have other opinions about the dog's quality. Showing is all about evaluating for breeding quality. I know of a few older breeders who don't title their own dogs but sell a representative sample of the breeding program to people who do show. These are older people who have been in the breed for a number of years. 

IMO, the only reason to breed it to improve the breed. If you are not showing and learning about structure, your sole opinion on the dog's quality doesn't mean a whole lot. I want multiple opinions and I want a breeder who understands what they are putting together and how it functions.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Teaco_@Apr 3 2005, 07:13 AM
> *I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I...*


Hi Teaco,
Wow...we are talking about the same woman. What a small world this is







I think I know who you are and I am pretty sure you figured out who I am since I don't hide my identity online. It is a terrible thing what happened to you. I hope the current situation resolves quickly and the other breeder gets her puppy back.

I would not consider someone who bred 1 litter with two show potentials a show breeder. They have yet to prove themselves (my humble opinion). In the past, I have been offered a puppy from them and I ran fast.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I am a small breeder too, but I never intended to be a breeder.(I don't like the word Breeder) I DON'T BREED FOR THE MONEY this is not the way I make my living. I do breed to improve the quality of my fur kidz even though I am not in the showing end of the dill. But I feel like I have some show quality dogs as well. I bought my first Maltese in 2000 an I fell so much in love with my first I had to have more. I wanted to bless other families with maltese at a reasonable price that a normal person like myself could afford. I have found out the hard way how dirty breeders are. I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I got there plus laid more money in her hand these dogs I paid show quality prices for an got a good screwing let me tell you.(These dogs was not cheap an mine looked better then these as they got older I seen) was promised breeding rights an AKC papers(I never got papers at all on them) an I beleived this lady, boy was I fooled that women became the lady from H-------
> 
> Teaco,
> What age were the "show quality pups" you purchased from this lady? Also, who did the evaluation on them prior to your purchase?


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## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

> > I am a small breeder too, but I never intended to be a breeder.(I don't like the word Breeder) I DON'T BREED FOR THE MONEY this is not the way I make my living. I do breed to improve the quality of my fur kidz even though I am not in the showing end of the dill. But I feel like I have some show quality dogs as well. I bought my first Maltese in 2000 an I fell so much in love with my first I had to have more. I wanted to bless other families with maltese at a reasonable price that a normal person like myself could afford. I have found out the hard way how dirty breeders are. I drove over 20 hrs to PA to purchase four show qualty so called dogs had laid over 2 gran in the ladies hand befor I got there plus laid more money in her hand these dogs I paid show quality prices for an got a good screwing let me tell you.(These dogs was not cheap an mine looked better then these as they got older I seen) was promised breeding rights an AKC papers(I never got papers at all on them) an I beleived this lady, boy was I fooled that women became the lady from H-------
> >
> > Teaco,
> > What age were the "show quality pups" you purchased from this lady? Also, who did the evaluation on them prior to your purchase?
> ...


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## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by CharmyPoo+Apr 3 2005, 02:09 PM-->
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YEs you figured me out, small world I think I do know who you are or I should say I have heard about you an all good. I hope an pray she gets her baby back soon very soon that lady don't deserve that puppy for nothing she is one sick women an sico lady. Charm, I have learned the hard way but I was not very educated when I purchase the four maltese but let me tell you didn't take me long after that to get my guards up never new breeders could be this dishonest people like that ruin the name breeder is so sad. No way could I make a living off selling dogs how sick when people do that an use them as baby machines. Those poor babies my heart goes out to them. I would die to own one of those babies from WV gosh why couldn't I met her first. Maybe someday I can that would be a dream come true. Even if it was not show quality would be wonderful not sure I have the time for showing just would love to go to one show in my life time that would be so exciting to see all those beautiful maltese. Take care an yes you picked me out who I am.
Teaco Nanny's babies
here is some of my babies not to bad for a BYB I didn't think


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by CharmyPoo_@Apr 3 2005, 03:36 AM
> *I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs.  I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income.  They basically live off their dogs.  I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check.  I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job.  They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48490*


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CharmyPoo,

I am just curious. Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs? Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by okw+Apr 3 2005, 10:18 PM-->
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CharmyPoo,

I am just curious. Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs? Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48673
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There are some large volumn breeders who have so many pups that they don't work, but the majority of the people who show and breed their dogs have a job. I couldn't afford to do what I do if I didn't. I can't even see getting into the black in the next five years. The way I look at it is everyone needs a hobby, and mine is trying to raise my own show dogs and having them shown.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > > I personally don't understand how some people live off their dogs.  I don't want to be mean but most that breed and not show have no other source of income.  They basically live off their dogs.  I don't know how they do it because I sure can't....my furkids take a chunk of my pay check.  I know a breeder who her and her husband have no job.  They have been breeding for over 20 years ... if they aren't in it for profit ... I don't know what they are in it for.
> > > <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48490
> >
> >
> ...


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by okw_@Apr 3 2005, 10:18 PM
> *CharmyPoo,
> 
> I am just curious.  Are you saying that no one should be making an income out of breeding or just not the people who don't show their dogs?  Do most reputable breeders who show have outside jobs?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48673*


[/QUOTE]

No, that is not what I am saying. If breeders (both show and non-show) can manage their breeding program properly, they will eventually come out close to even and if they are lucky they will make some money. For non-show breeders, their expenses are reduced because they don't have show entry fees, handling fees, driving expenses, reduced grooming products etc. Their chances of making an money is higher.

What I am saying is that for any breeder who does not have another source of income, they must be breeding their dogs so frequently that they can generate enough revenue to survive. I won't go into calculations but just think about how many dogs you have to sell in order to survive comfortably. 

Most of the reputable breeders I know also have outside jobs. They work during the day and come home and tend to their kids. Several breeders I know are professional groomers and have a source of income from that. There are others who are professional handlers. Some are homemakers but their spouse brings home income from an outside job. Still others are retired and maintain their breeding program through their retirement savings.

I am no breeder but I work a full time job. I put aside a chunk of each pay check into a fund for my dogs. This fund is used for emergencies, little gifts or even saving for another furkid. I am growing this fund for the future when I begin showing and breeding. I know I spend enough just on regular vet bills, food and grooming supplies. If I didn't have a job, there is no way my furkids can live as comfortably as they do.

It is a red flag to me if the only source of income in a household is through the breeding of dogs. But that is just my opinion.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

The breeder that we got chelsey from does grooming on the side. She has a handeler to show her does this year as she does not have the time for the shows anymore. She does not have a lot of litters. I think they make enought to be happy. They are not wealthy but at lease she and her husband are doing what makes them happy. 
They have a home a car nothing fancy but it thiers. I don't belive good breeders make a lot of money. I think they make enough to make ends meet.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

[/QUOTE]
They was about 14 wks old. As far as I new the evalution was done by the breeder and another lady that she used her stud.


Teaco,
The first red flag here is the age of the pups. Reputable breeders keep theirs on average for six months before they sell as show prospects. Factors such as permanent teeth and both testicles for the male must be taken into consideration. Some are sold for pets at this age because they aren't large enough to be competative.
Since you have never been to shows, start there learning so you will get some idea of what is out there showing at various ages. You might also try to find a professional handler who will do evaluations on any future pups. While it is best to have your dogs go before a judge, the next best thing is to have someone who is a professional handler with the toy breed do evaluations. Some of these are even in the process of becoming judges themself.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

Lucy Lou,

I definitely remember that you have an outside job!







Thanks for your very helpful responses!

CharmyPoo,

Thanks for your response. I have trouble believing that very well known breeders who sell even their "pet quality" pups for $2-3,000 are breaking even or just making a little bit of money. I know that there are great breeders who only have limited, well planned litters so they must not be making all that much money at all, but I would be willing to bet that there are others (even the ones who show their dogs and are reputable) do end up making what must be a nice profit from their pups by perhaps breeding more frequently or some other means (sort of what Lucy Lou described). Of course, this is just my opinion based on observations and not on any facts.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by okw_@Apr 4 2005, 11:34 AM
> *CharmyPoo,
> 
> Thanks for your response.  I have trouble believing that very well known breeders who sell even their "pet quality" pups for $2-3,000 are breaking even or just making a little bit of money.  I know that there are great breeders who only have limited, well planned litters so they must not be making all that much money at all, but I would be willing to bet that there are others (even the ones who show their dogs and are reputable) do end up making what must be a nice profit from their pups by perhaps breeding more frequently or some other means (sort of what Lucy Lou described).  Of course, this is just my opinion based on observations and not on any facts.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48811*


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Do you know how much it costs to finish a dog even if you owner handle it? Entry fees for a weekend are about $50, add gas, hotel, food, etc. and a lot of weekends of it! It is not cheap. If the breeder has 1-2 pups per litter to sell and breed a couple times a year, they are easily still in the red. Don't forget vet bills, grooming products, food, handler fees if you aren't showing the dog yourself, who takes care of the dogs while you go to shows? Paid dog sitter or kennel help usually...

$600 or $800 is totally reasonable for a large breed puppy to go for, but $2000 for a toy breed isn't okay? The large breed pup came from a litter of 6 or more whereas the toy breed from a litter of 2-3. 5x$800=$4,000. I don't see the difference. 

Just an emergency c-section here would be about $2,000. 

For a boxer not including showing fees:
http://www.bellcrestboxers.com/littercost.html

Another nice link on selecting a breeder:
http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm


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## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

Teaco,
Do you do genetic tests on your breeding male and female?


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

[/QUOTE]

Do you know how much it costs to finish a dog even if you owner handle it? Entry fees for a weekend are about $50, add gas, hotel, food, etc. and a lot of weekends of it! It is not cheap. If the breeder has 1-2 pups per litter to sell and breed a couple times a year, they are easily still in the red. Don't forget vet bills, grooming products, food, handler fees if you aren't showing the dog yourself, who takes care of the dogs while you go to shows? Paid dog sitter or kennel help usually...

$600 or $800 is totally reasonable for a large breed puppy to go for, but $2000 for a toy breed isn't okay? The large breed pup came from a litter of 6 or more whereas the toy breed from a litter of 2-3. 5x$800=$4,000. I don't see the difference. 

Just an emergency c-section here would be about $2,000. 

For a boxer not including showing fees:
http://www.bellcrestboxers.com/littercost.html

Another nice link on selecting a breeder:
http://www.dog-play.com/breedercomparison.htm
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48909
[/QUOTE]

JMM,

I hope you are not offended. I never said that maltese shouldn't cost that much! Or that showing them is cheap. I definitely think they should that much. An honest, small scale, show breeder cannot possibly be making that much of a profit. I was merely saying that a large scale (maybe out of control breeder) can be making an income.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I misunderstood you. Sorry! But, as long as I posted it, it is educational to see how much a litter can cost. LOL


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## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by FannyMay_@Apr 4 2005, 06:25 PM
> *Teaco,
> Do you do genetic tests on your breeding male and female?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=48944*


[/QUOTE]
No I have never done that. I have allot to learn I will be the first to admit that. I just hate when breeders sees somebody like myself come there way see that they have $ an all they can do is fill you full of lies an as myself I was not very educatedand talk about a night mare from that breeder it was. I would of never imagine in my life time people are that cruel an dishonest just over a dog sale all they cared was the money an as soon as the money all the money I should say hit her hand she became the women from H-------- like night to day. I have learned an from a very hard way but be the first to say I have allot more to learn about the maltese breed. I don'tt make my living raiseing dogs I have all my maltese cause I fell so much in love with them I couldn't stop at one. . Ok I have rattled way to much but good point on the genetic tests that will be in my thoughts an process in the future. Thanks for bringing that up.
Teaco


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Teaco+Apr 4 2005, 08:49 PM-->
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No I have never done that. I have allot to learn I will be the first to admit that. I just hate when breeders sees somebody like myself come there way see that they have $ an all they can do is fill you full of lies an as myself I was not very educatedand talk about a night mare from that breeder it was. I would of never imagine in my life time people are that cruel an dishonest just over a dog sale all they cared was the money an as soon as the money all the money I should say hit her hand she became the women from H-------- like night to day. I have learned an from a very hard way but be the first to say I have allot more to learn about the maltese breed. I don'tt make my living raiseing dogs I have all my maltese cause I fell so much in love with them I couldn't stop at one. . Ok I have rattled way to much but good point on the genetic tests that will be in my thoughts an process in the future. Thanks for bringing that up.
Teaco
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49022
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I think most who read of the type person you dealt with will see that she is not a reputable breeder. Also, it is obvious that she was also a puppy broker because you took two of yours there for her to sell as you said she told you she could get more for them than you could in your state. 
We all have to start somewhere. We all make mistakes. Just don't judge breeders as a whole on this person.
You sound like a sincere person who really loves your dogs. If you have questions about confirmation, or other issues with your dogs you are breeding, there are a number of people on this site who will be glad to help.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

OKW, there are a few well known show breeders who have in excess of 50 dogs. I know of at least three who are in the show ring a good bit with prominent wins who do this. One lives in the most exclusive area of her city. She has a nice building on the property with at least 75 dogs in crates. She pays hired help $6 an hour to clean the cages. The dogs never get out of the building. Even though she has some very nice show dogs, I would never buy from her, nor any of the others because of this.
It stands to reason that those who spend thousands on advertising getting themself in every search engine on the itnernet to show off their fancy websites aren't doing this to promote their show dogs. They do this through trade publications, and they sell show prospects through showing. If they only had the small numbers they could be sold without all this extensive advertising. They are there to sell to the general public.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Apr 4 2005, 08:35 PM
> *She has a nice building on the property with at least 75 dogs in crates.  She pays hired help $6 an hour to clean the cages.  The dogs never get out of the building.  Even though she has some very nice show dogs, I would never buy from her, nor any of the others because of this.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49077*


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That is sooooo sad. And I really don't see much of a difference between these breeders and puppy mill type places (even though they do show) because in the process of bettering the breed, those poor dogs are mistreated.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou+Apr 4 2005, 10:23 PM-->
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You sound like a sincere person who really loves your dogs. <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49070
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 She is JUST that! She is Brink's first momma! That is what attracted me to her!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This is a real eye-opener, especially because Golden Retrievers have bigger litters and fewer complications than Maltese:


Breeding Expenses 

Descriptions of Expenses/Profits 


Raising The Puppy 

Purchase Of Puppy 
$1000 

Puppy Shots 
$150 

Food 
$400/year 

Crate 
$80 

Vet Bills 
$150 - $200/year 

Tattoo 
$20 

Licenses 
$15/year 

Registration Fees 
$10 


Showing Expenses 

Conformation 

Entries 
$880 

Handler 
$3000 

Travel 
$1500


Obedience 

Training Classes 
$80+/8 week session (minimum 5 sessions) 

Entry Fees 
$160 

Travel 
$300 


Pre-Breeding Health Screens 

Eyes (Annual) 
$20/year 

OFA 
$100 - $150 

PennHip 
$150 - $250 

Heart Exam 
$30+ 

Thyroid Screen 
$80 

Brucellosis (each litter)
$50 


Breeding Related Expenses 

Stud Fee 
$800/litter 

Shipping 
$0 - $300/litter 

Other testing as required by stud dog owner 
$50/litter 

Whelping Supplies 
$100/litter 

Vet Bills for Dam 
$60/litter 

Vet Bills For Pups 
$500/litter 

Food For Pups 
$100/litter 

Registration Fees 
$20/litter 

Advertising 
variable 

Phone Bills 
$200/litter 

Extra Heat 
$300/litter 

Extra Electric 
$70/litter 


Total Expenses 
$20480 


Breeding Expenses if problems occur 

C-Section 
$600 

Puppy Formula 
$80 

Other Vet bills 
Variable depending on problem 

Time off from work 


Income 

Puppy Sales 

Number of Litters 
3 

Puppies per litter 
8 

Pets 
$8400 

Show 
$12000 


Taxes Paid 
$5100 


Profit/(Loss) 
($5180) 




Assumptions:

Titles earned - Ch. & CD by serious exhibitor

Dog lives to be 10 years old (though some live considerably longer

Dog obtains all clearances. Rough estimate is that only 25% of the dogs clear on all 3 major clearances 

Cost to finish a Championship on a Golden is estimated by some to be closer to $15,000

Half of litter is sold as show prospects (a very high percentage)

Puppy Exams include shots, wormings, micro-chipping

Price charged for puppies from hobby breeder are $1000 for show prospects, $700 for pets


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I think it is important to remember as I said in the beginning of this thread that not showing is a red flag that they are not a responsible breeder but showing in itself does not mean they are. It is just part of the package.


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## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

Teaco,
I see that you are at least trying to learn so don't take this the wrong way.
You are breeding your dogs (who you got from a bad breeder so you may be breeding bad dogs) without genetic testing and your reason for breeding is so that your family and friends can have a cute dog like yours without having to pay that much. This is a back yard breeder. You ARE a back yard breeder. BUT since you want to learn and you are here it shows that you want to be a real reputable breeder. That's the first step. So before you breed again I suggest you find a reputable breeder (who shows) to become your mentor. Go with them to shows, help them when it's whelping time (even though you have already done this it's good to see someone else do it too). Help them groom their dogs and take care of them. Learn from her/him. If they are a good breeder they will take you under their wing and show you the ropes so that you can become a reputable breeder like them. And please don't breed again until you have done genetic testing and your breeding dogs have been given the ok to breed. If you really want to better the breed then you will do these things. 
I am not saying you are a puppy mill because you are not, I am just saying that since you have a long way to go to becoming a reputable breeder, maybe you should stop breeding until you are really ready. You got to start somewhere but that somewhere can be a better place then where you started before.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

There is a good comparsion of a responsible breeder versus a backyard breeder here:

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Several weeks ago, I asked how many people got dogs from breeders where testing was done. Response to this was sparse. Some on this list got their dogs from show breeders, and there was no response there either. Bottom line is--most don't test Maltese. LIver shunt and testing the patella would be the most obvious to do. We also have to remember that many of those who show their dogs are breeding to dogs where their history is known. If it's not in the line, and they have had no problems with this, then they aren't as eager to do testing. Problems arise here with recessive to recessive trait breeding more than anything.
We have one frequent poster here JMM whose dog came from a well known kennel, yet it has a multitude of problems. I would hope this breeder did something after learning of these problems so that this breeding was not repeated. 
As for Teaco finding someone to mentor her--that is like finding a needle in a haystack unless she is interested in showing and purchasing dogs from them. I'm fortunate to have found one, but they are few and far between. Purchasing from a reputable breeder who does show should get one some assistance, but it doesn't guarantee a mentor status, and I would venture that she would have an extremely difficult time purchasing from anyone if she is just going to continue breeding without having her dogs shown. 
I'm not meaning to be critical of anyone here. We each take our stand on where we want to go with Maltese. I would hope that anyone who does choose to breed do so only with dogs who do conform to the standards, and who are sound and produce healthy offspring who also conform to standard.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LucyLou_@Apr 5 2005, 12:01 PM
> *Several weeks ago, I asked how many people got dogs from breeders where testing was done.  Response to this was sparse.  Some on this list got their dogs from show breeders, and there was no response there either.  Bottom line is--most don't test Maltese.  LIver shunt and testing the patella would be the most obvious to do.  We also have to remember that many of those who show their dogs are breeding to dogs where their history is known.  If it's not in the line, and they have had no problems with this, then they aren't as eager to do testing.  Problems arise here with recessive to recessive trait breeding more than anything.
> We have one frequent poster here JMM whose dog came from a well known kennel, yet it has a multitude of problems.  I would hope this breeder did something after learning of these problems so that this breeding was not repeated.
> As for Teaco finding someone to mentor her--that is like finding a needle in a haystack unless she is interested in showing and purchasing dogs from them.  I'm fortunate to have found one, but they are few and far between.  Purchasing from a reputable breeder who does show should get one some assistance, but it doesn't guarantee a mentor status, and I would venture that she would have an extremely difficult time purchasing from anyone if she is just going to continue breeding without having her dogs shown.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Just because health testing isn't readily done doesn't mean you shouldn't be asking about it. I can guarantee you there are liver issues in plenty of popular lines. I've been on the phone and e-mailed with many about it. You'll never hear about it publically, though. I had NO idea that you could test for these problems or that a dog wouldn't be obviously sick when I bought my first few Maltese. Well, you live and learn! 

Tonia Holibaugh has started testing her puppies with chem panels and bile acids. You can request it before you buy a puppy. Consumer demand can influence change. She is also doing patellas on her adults as well as starting with eye exams. I applaud her and hope more breeders take those step. 

Just because you can't see a problem doesn't mean it isn't there. Jonathan is totally normal unless you test his bile acids and look at his liver biopsy. 

Maltese can be a hard breed to get into. I highly recommend developing a serious relationship with a breeder. As for a local mentor, find another toy breed breeder if there is not a Maltese person close to you. You can practice coat care on a pet Maltese and visit a breeder to learn more. Despite my insistance about health testing, even I have still found a number of breeders more than willing to help be out on the phone, via e-mail, and in person. I've also met plenty of friendly handlers who let me watch them groom and even talked me through it and answered questions. If you want to do it, it can be done. You have to commit to taking the time and doing it right.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49255
[/QUOTE]



Tonia Holibaugh has started testing her puppies with chem panels and bile acids. You can request it before you buy a puppy. Consumer demand can influence change. She is also doing patellas on her adults as well as starting with eye exams. I applaud her and hope more breeders take those step. 

<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49487
[/QUOTE]

JMM,

Kind of off the topic, but I am just curious, is luxating patella a recessive trait? If so, then testing an adult doesn't help, right? Its only as a result of a cross with another carrier. However, its still great to be testing though. 

Of course I had NO idea that what a luxating patella even was when we were looking for a puppy.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

There is a breeder who I look up to. She has all her Maltese OFA certified and I know she does testing on pups when there is the slightest chance that something could be wrong (example, very small size). I think every breeding program should do testing and getting certification. I was shocked to find some of the most popular studs today are not OFA certificted. In fact, there are so few Maltese that are OFA certified.

Here are some of her thoughts about luxating patella. This is a private email she wrote to me but I have her permission to share it for educational purpospes.



> It amazes me how naive breeders can be.  You are right, if the patella are strong, they will not luxate from day to day activities such as stairs and furniture jumping.  It is possible to injure a patella like <removed> did when she ran into the door and whacked her knee. (because her knee was tight and the patella was unaturally forced out, she really screamed).
> 
> However, it is easy to differentiate.  If it is a injury to a dog with tight patella, only the knee that is injured will be affected, the other knee will still be tight.  If both knees luxate by a year of age, it is genetic.
> 
> ...


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Charmpoo, thank you so much for posting that information (above) for us. That was so very interesting.....


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom_@Apr 6 2005, 06:18 AM
> *Charmpoo, thank you so much for posting that information (above) for us. That was so very interesting.....
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49544*


[/QUOTE]

Even if breeders do their own shots, they still need the rabies done by a vet. The testing can be done when this is done. Also, I've started having some blood work done on mine, and the price for that is reasonable too.
I don't plan to do as much line breeding as some of the breeders so won't have as much concern with recessive traits.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

LP and liver shunt are both considered polygenic to the best of my knowledge. No simple resessive has ever been identified.


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## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by FannyMay_@Apr 5 2005, 10:34 AM
> *Teaco,
> I see that you are at least trying to learn so don't take this the wrong way.
> You are breeding your dogs (who you got from a bad breeder so you may be breeding bad dogs) without genetic testing and your reason for breeding is so that your family and friends can have a cute dog like yours without having to pay that much.  This is a back yard breeder.  You ARE a back yard breeder.  BUT since you want to learn and you are here it shows that you want to be a real reputable breeder.  That's the first step.  So before you breed again I suggest you find a reputable breeder (who shows) to become your mentor.  Go with them to shows, help them when it's whelping time (even though you have already done this it's good to see someone else do it too).  Help them groom their dogs and take care of them.  Learn from her/him.  If they are a good breeder they will take you under their wing and show you the ropes so that you can become a reputable breeder like them.  And please don't breed again until you have done genetic testing and your breeding dogs have been given the ok to breed.  If you really want to better the breed then you will do these things.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Oh I appricuate all the info but those four dogs I got from the lady from H---- I have not bred them at all. I have other females an males from breeders in my state that has helped me but not in the show part of it. I have not bred any of the dogs without AKC papers I was promised . I wished I new a show breeder an hope to find one in the near future. What I have learned I had better looking dogs then the ones I drove many hours to purchased but I have also learned I feel like allot more now. What to look for, my dream would be is to take a baby I raised with no champ. back ground an get that back ground. Those Champ. back grounds we all know has had to start from somewhere. That is just a dream I would like to happen not that it will ever but I have been around cattle, horses, pigs worked around animals all my life I am just animal lover an found my love of my life when it came to these maltese. Yes I know all breeders aren't bad they can't be I just so by chance ran across one that was bad but I have to keep my head up an not give up. I know I need allot of help an guidence in raising a good line. I thank everybody for all the help I am all ears. I love my dogs if I never had another puppy again these fur balls are my strength.
Teaco


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Oh I appricuate all the info but those four dogs I got from the lady from H---- I have not bred them at all. I have other females an males from breeders in my state that has helped me but not in the show part of it. I have not bred any of the dogs without AKC papers I was promised . I wished I new a show breeder an hope to find one in the near future. What I have learned I had better looking dogs then the ones I drove many hours to purchased but I have also learned I feel like allot more now. What to look for, my dream would be is to take a baby I raised with no champ. back ground an get that back ground. Those Champ. back grounds we all know has had to start from somewhere. That is just  a dream I would like to happen not that it will ever but I have been around cattle, horses, pigs worked around animals all my life I am just animal lover an found my love of my life when it came to these maltese. Yes I know all breeders aren't bad they can't be I just so by chance ran across one that was bad but I have to keep my head up an not give up. I know I need allot of help an guidence in raising a good line. I thank everybody for all the help I am all ears.  I love my dogs if I never had another puppy again these fur balls are my strength.
> Teaco
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49836


[/B][/QUOTE]

Teaco,
Your dream COULD come true. If you study confirmation, and keep the best, then breed up the ladder. I will tell you of a dog I know who has produced nothing but champions, with one exception in a pup who lost two toes and part of her tail due to a freak accident. This female was never shown, and doesn't have any champions in at least three generations back. BUT, she is bred to a champion by someone who know her and knows what is behind her. She has been bred to three different champion males, and produces great pups every time. All her pups have finished except one who already has his majors, and another who is just starting to show. In fact one of her pups made a good showing at the National Specialty in Florida this year.
When I started out, I had a dog who was not shown, and was purchased as a pet. On the advice of a professional handler, I bred her. She produced a pup I kept who was much better than her, and was considered to be a good show prospect. Unfortunately, this girl didn't like the show experience. I was advised to take her home and breed her, then bring those pups back. She was bred to one of my champions last year. Never did I imagine I would get all three pups with good show potential. I, too, like building a line. I'm not out there breeding for others though, just myself, and I do it on a very very small scale.
I wish you well in your journey with your dogs. And, I hope you find someone as knowledgable and helpful as my friend to help you along the way. I've lost track in the number of calls back and forth just today to discuss our dogs.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49255




Tonia Holibaugh has started testing her puppies with chem panels and bile acids. You can request it before you buy a puppy. Consumer demand can influence change. She is also doing patellas on her adults as well as starting with eye exams. I applaud her and hope more breeders take those step. 

<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49487
[/QUOTE]

JMM,

Kind of off the topic, but I am just curious, is luxating patella a recessive trait? If so, then testing an adult doesn't help, right? Its only as a result of a cross with another carrier. However, its still great to be testing though. 

Of course I had NO idea that what a luxating patella even was when we were looking for a puppy.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49492
[/QUOTE]



Who is Tonia H. she is the other breeder of my Tunder. She bred his momma.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dhodina_@Apr 6 2005, 09:20 PM
> *Who is Tonia H.  she is the other breeder of my Tunder.   She bred his momma.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49916*


[/QUOTE]

Tonia is a "famous" and successful Maltese handler and breeder. Her kennel name is Rhapsody Maltese: 
Rhapsody Maltese Web Site

I see from her site that she has two males available.... one is 12 weeks... one is 5 months if anyone is looking .......


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I got my darling Nibbler from Tonia. He is such a doll.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Apr 6 2005, 08:49 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tonia is a "famous" and successful Maltese handler and breeder. Her kennel name is Rhapsody Maltese: 
Rhapsody Maltese Web Site

I see from her site that she has two males available.... one is 12 weeks... one is 5 months if anyone is looking .......
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49928
[/B][/QUOTE]


Well then I guess mista man is better bred than I thought. I knew Tammy had nice dogs and all but I didn't realize the level of lines she had. She and Tonia have several joint litters. Tunders being one of them. 

Also how do you just quote one line from a response.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

awwwww Tunder's mommy is on the Rhapsody puppy page. "Mariah"


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dhodina_@Apr 6 2005, 09:03 PM
> *awwwww Tunder's mommy is on the Rhapsody puppy page.  "Mariah"
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49933*


[/QUOTE]

Mariah is a darling. I always liked her


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by CharmyPoo+Apr 6 2005, 09:31 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mariah is a darling. I always liked her








<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49943
[/B][/QUOTE]


Wait I wonder if Tunder and Nibbler are related......


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

awwwwwwww. i see she has some of Thriller's offspring available...looking at his pedigree, he has some of the same "men" on his side that the buttercup does as well. including one of my favorites, "Ch Su-Le's Cordon Bleu"...he's such a doll. cute cute cute. sadly, on her momma's side...she is mostly millpuppy...but if she was from somewhere else...she wouldnt be who she is and i love her exactly how she is. i shudder to think that "if i knew then...what i know now..." i might not have the buttercup









anyway. i wish i understood dog breeding and genetics a little better. i'm going to start reading some past threads here to see what i can learn. this is such an insightful group, i feel very lucky to have this little bit of knowledge available







you guys are great, i havent come across anyone that's the least bit elitist in their discussion about breeding, everyone seems very open to these discussions. thanks in advance for the info that i may find yet, hehe!

ann marie and the "genetic grand central station of maltese" buttercup


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## JCButterfly (Mar 15, 2005)

this is such an interesting thread, and since I just got my little Tristan from Tonia, it's nice to be reaffirmed for making a good breeder choice!


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JCButterfly_@Apr 7 2005, 02:41 PM
> *this is such an interesting thread, and since I just got my little Tristan from Tonia, it's nice to be reaffirmed for making a good breeder choice!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50227*


[/QUOTE]

You must send photos of Tristan. I would love to see her!


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dhodina_@Apr 6 2005, 09:44 PM
> *Wait I wonder if Tunder and Nibbler are related......
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=49947*


[/QUOTE]

Tammy herself is a well known breeder







I have always loved Tunder and his kids. I love his son River.

Nibbler and Tunder are related many generations back. They both CH Su-Le's Cordon Bleu ROM as great grand father or great great grand father. Nibbler's mom is  Ch. Divine's Indecently Sweet bred by Divine Maltese and his father is CH Cameo's Beau Ideal who is the son of CH Pashes Beau Didley ROM. You can see the photos when you click on the names.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JCButterfly_@Apr 7 2005, 03:41 PM
> *this is such an interesting thread, and since I just got my little Tristan from Tonia, it's nice to be reaffirmed for making a good breeder choice!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50227*


[/QUOTE]

You definitely made a great choice! 

I noticed on Tonia's web site (Rhapsody Maltese) that she has a links section. I wonder if she would consider putting Spoiled Maltese on the list, also. Maybe some of you who know her could ask? Here is the section I'm talking about:

Rhapsody Maltese Links


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by CharmyPoo+Apr 7 2005, 05:27 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tammy herself is a well known breeder







I have always loved Tunder and his kids. I love his son River.

Nibbler and Tunder are related many generations back. They both CH Su-Le's Cordon Bleu ROM as great grand father or great great grand father. Nibbler's mom is  Ch. Divine's Indecently Sweet bred by Divine Maltese and his father is CH Cameo's Beau Ideal who is the son of CH Pashes Beau Didley ROM. You can see the photos when you click on the names.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50291
[/B][/QUOTE]


Tunder and River are half brothers not father and son they are both out of Ch Jo-San's Sweet Thundr N' Lighten. Tunder's mom is Ch Rhapsody's Wind Of Victory.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Was Tunder used as a stud?


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Apr 8 2005, 07:40 AM
> *Was Tunder used as a stud?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50396*


[/QUOTE]

Yes for a short peroid of time before she bought the boarding kennel. Since she has bought the kennel she devotes all her time to that and not showing or breeding anymore. She decided Tunder would be happier in a one on one home because he is such a sweet little lover boy. She had him nuetered back in Dec and was just waiting for the right person to inquire. She doesn't advertise her dogs at all. It was fate that he and I are together now. I am completely convinced of that. He is he PERFECT dog for me. He even went to Menards with us last night. I just carried him in no bag no nothing...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dhodina+Apr 8 2005, 09:45 AM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes for a short peroid of time before she bought the boarding kennel. Since she has bought the kennel she devotes all her time to that and not showing or breeding anymore. She decided Tunder would be happier in a one on one home because he is such a sweet little lover boy. She had him nuetered back in Dec and was just waiting for the right person to inquire. She doesn't advertise her dogs at all. It was fate that he and I are together now. I am completely convinced of that. He is he PERFECT dog for me. He even went to Menards with us last night. I just carried him in no bag no nothing...
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50460
[/B][/QUOTE]

And he doesn't mark? 

I know marking is a big problem with male Maltese if they aren't neutered at about 5 or 6 months. I've heard it's even worse if they've been used as a stud. You got lucky with him!

A gal on another forum adopted 2 show dogs and she could never break the male of marking in the house. He had to wear belly bands 24/7. 

I'm so glad the 2 of you found one another! I'm sure he is much happier as a family pet. I'd love to see some recent pictures of him.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

And he doesn't mark? 

I know marking is a big problem with male Maltese if they aren't neutered at about 5 or 6 months. I've heard it's even worse if they've been used as a stud. You got lucky with him!

A gal on another forum adopted 2 show dogs and she could never break the male of marking in the house. He had to wear belly bands 24/7. 

I'm so glad the 2 of you found one another! I'm sure he is much happier as a family pet. I'd love to see some recent pictures of him.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50497
[/QUOTE]


Let me knock on wood before saying this... 

No accidents to date. He is in the kitchen during the day and he sleeps with us at night. He doesn't even lift his leg to pee outside. I have some pics of him wearing his playboy bunny barrette, but I am waiting for the Tshirt. Yes I went ahead and ordered it, before I post them. Tunder is a doll. He really is perfect. I couldn't have asked for anything better. 

Of course now that I say that I will go home and he will have marked my whole kitchen. lol


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Wow! He never learned to lift his leg? And was just neutered at age 5? He probably won't mark, then.

I've had male dogs before in my life (big dogs) and never had a problem with marking inside. My Petie wasn't neutered until he was 5 (it took me that long to convince my vet to do it as it wasn't done regularly on male dogs then).

I've been posting on Maltese forums for the 5 years I've had Lady and can't believe how much of a problem male marking seems to be in Maltese. Most male dogs in rescue are sent home with belly bands for that reason.

I looked at a beautiful male Maltese to adopt about a year after adopting Lady. He came for a visit and marked every vertical surface in my home, I think! That ruined his chances as far as I was concerned!

I read somewhere toy dogs mark because they are so small in relationship to their home, that a big dog thinks of his home as more of a crate. It was an interesting article - wish I'd saved it!


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> I bought Tunder a belly band but never used it on him. Tammy said he does know how to lift his leg. I guess he just chooses not to. He wore some kind of wrap not a belly band at Tammy's just because all her males did. She didn't want her furniture ruined and she keeps her dogs as house dogs. I don't know why I got so lucky but I am so grateful I did.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

With 23 dogs in the house, I'm sure if Tunder were going to mark, he would have done it at Tammy's.

He knows how to lift his leg, but chooses not too? Maybe he has gender identification issues!  

You sure did luck out, but I think Tunder did most of all!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom_@Apr 8 2005, 12:55 PM
> *I read somewhere toy dogs mark because they are so small in relationship to their home, that a big dog thinks of his home as more of a crate. It was an interesting article - wish I'd saved it!
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50505*


[/QUOTE]

I hate to say it but when I was married we had an unnuetered Doberman and he marked everywhere... OH what a mess!!!!

Any while we're on the subject... Catcher has never marked but the last few days with the nice weather I've let K & C out on the patio area which is fenced and grassed and he lifted his leg to pee in the grass. He has never even seen another male dog... it must be instinct. (He was neutered at 5+ months). He doesn't lift his left on his potty pads in the house though.


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## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

Fantasia lifts her leg! She lifts it outside and even inside on her pad. I think she is too dainty and doesn't want to get it on her little foot.


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## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

Sis lifts one back paw too!! She HATES to get her feet wet and when she does she will lay right down until you get the baby wipes and wipe/dry her off. LOL


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Kallie lifts her leg, too, but only outside and it goes sort of forward more so than "out".... if that makes sense!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Leg lifting is both behavioral and instinctual. Marking will get started as a doggy way or declaring territory (both males and females do it, but intact males with those hormones are the worst), often after another dog has marked a spot. Having said that, a dog that is not permitted to do so will not. It is a housebreaking issue when they mark in the house. I know of plenty of breeders with stud dogs who do not mark in the house ever. I've had plenty of intact males in the house including a Maltese. I never let them start the behavior so we had no problems. If you aren't actively house training your dogs and you have 15, of course they'll urinate all over the place. It is a dog thing, not a toy breed thing. I think most large breed people simply don't tolerate it.


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## dhodina (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MomtwoMaltmuffins+Apr 8 2005, 06:49 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just checked with my friend, her little boys background is :

His father is Tamar's Thunder Boomer (Tammy called him River). His complete title is Champion Jo-San's Sweet Thundr N' Lighten X Tamar's Wheel of Fortune. He finished his championship at just 1 yr and 2 days old. His first litter of pups was 3 girls and 1 boy (my Wrigs). Wrigley's mother's name is or was Chrissy. I don't think she was shown in the ring.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=50673
[/B][/QUOTE]


You can see pictures here of both River and Tunder....

http://www.jvlnet.com/~thauptman/guys.htm


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## Theresa (Mar 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Sisses Momma_@Apr 8 2005, 03:28 PM
> *Sis lifts one back paw too!!  She HATES to get her feet wet and when she does she will lay right down until you get the baby wipes and wipe/dry her off.  LOL
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
 oh my gosh Summer lifts her leg to she always gets one wet







will step in it at the last minute :lol: but sit right down and cleans her self such a lady our Summer


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