# Vaginal Bleeding! Please help!



## CindyPham (Aug 31, 2004)

My little girl, Baby, was in her heat cycle around the 6th or 7th month. I’ve experienced very little bleeding here and there, but not as much as I’m seeing now!!! It’s been going on for a week now, and I’ve taken her to the vet. 

At first when she went number 1 it looked really dark so I didn’t know if it was blood or not. The vet said she had an empty stomach and couldn’t get any samples for testing, so he put her on antibiotics. The past 2 days the color turned pinkish or red when she pees. She can’t seem to hold it in at all, and it comes out ALL the time. I’m pretty sure she’s in heat, but never have I seen THIS much blood. She did get pregnant by mistake, and she has given birth. Could that be why there’s more blood now? 

Is there anyone that’s had this problem after having a litter of puppies? Any info given would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance guys…


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your baby. I don't know too much about dog heat cycles...but, I would imagine they older they get there would be a change in level of discharge as in humans. If she is eating, drinking and going ok...that is a good sign....I would think.

These are the vet pages. You might want to breeze through it? Not sure, but hope she is ok.

http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/dogindex.html


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## RexsMom (Jun 8, 2005)

I hope Baby is getting better. Keep us updated on her. The curse of being a woman, men have it so good.


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

I would take her in to the vet again and have her checked out. Please have your baby spayed as soon as possible. It's the responsible thing to do.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Please have Baby spayed. It's the best thing you can do as a responsible mom to protect her health.

FEMALES
Spayed females are happier, healthier pets. The more heat cycles an unspayed pet goes through, the more susceptible she is to serious diseases. During an ovariohysterectomy (spaying), the uterus and ovaries are removed, ensuring that the hormones that cause health- and behavior-related problems are no longer produced. At the same time, many cancers, tumors and other medical conditions are reduced or eliminated. 

Spaying eliminates the chances of developing:
• Pyometra. Pyometra is a serious and potentially fatal infection of the uterus experienced by many unspayed cats and dogs. If it is left untreated, your pet will most likely die. 
• Ovarian cancer, cysts and infections. Ovarian cancer is a common occurrence in unaltered females.
• Uterine cancer and uterine infections. These are common occurrences in unaltered female dogs and cats, especially older pets. 
• Acute metritis (infected uterus). This can be potentially fatal if not treated in time. 
• Difficult pregnancy and delivery. This is common in older and ill cats. 
• Pseudopregnancies. Some females go through a false pregnancy every time they come into heat. 

Spaying greatly decreases the chances of developing:
• Breast cancer and tumors. The rate goes down to almost zero if the spay is done before the first heat cycle. Breast cancer is the most common malignant tumor in dogs, and the third most common cancer in cats. The chances of a female dog reaching 10 years of age without developing this potentially fatal tumor is less than 11% in some breeds with normal hormone production. 
• Tumors of the reproductive system.
• Mammary cancer. Mammary cancer is very common in older unspayed females, and is the most common cancer to spread to the lungs.
• Mastitis (infection of the mammary glands). This can be potentially fatal if not treated in time. 
• Mammary tumors. Unspayed females have about a 7 times greater chance of getting mammary tumors.
• False pregnancies. 
• Certain skin conditions related to hormonal imbalances. 
• Hair loss. The hair coat on many dogs suffers because of estrogen surges that occur with heat cycles or whelping. Their coats appear thin and the underlying skin is exposed in many areas. It can take 2 to 4 months for the hair to return to normal.


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## jellybn1 (Mar 16, 2005)

Hi,
I also must express to you to see your ver ASAP. Baby needs to be spayed.. This is the "humane & responsible" thing to do, as it is a preventitive to cancer as she gets older. It certainly, will also make Baby's life more comfortable.
Jellybn1


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## CindyPham (Aug 31, 2004)

I don't plan on spaying her anytime soon. I want her to be able to have puppies. I don't want to become a breeder by any means, but I just want to keep some of her babies so we can have a houseful of little furbutts. I appreciate all of you telling me that it's healthy and the "right" or "responsible" thing to do... but I know I do everything in my power to give her the best care and love regardless of her being spayed or not. I feel that, in itself, IS being responsible. 

She's eating, running around, and playing normal which I assume is good. The only changes are she's real clingy to me, and she taking more naps. Also, she can't seem to control her bladder and lets go all over the house. I made her some diapers today, and they're doing the job! =] Last night I bought her one of those children's play pen, but she hates it because she can't be right by me. =/ I will take her to the vet tomorrow and let you know how she's doing. The only thing is I don't know how I'll be able to give the vet a sample of her urine with the blood because she doesn't like to "go" unless she's home and no one's looking. I guess I'll have to try to get her to drink lots of water before our trip to the vet. =]


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

The vet will probably want to take a sterile sample of urine to test anyway, so I wouldn't worry about collecting a sample yourself. If it were me, I'd take her in today. Excessive bleeding can be a sign of trouble and I wouldn't want to chance her getting worse after hours when your vet is closed. The fact that she's had a prior preganacy with complications and a c-section before would concern me.

FYI, in my book whether you breed once or a dozen times makes you a breeder. It's a huge financial responsibilty especially if you plan to keep the puppies. In another post I mentioned that I spend $3000 a year on Lady's medications and vet bills alone. Times 3 (you've got 3 now, right?) is a pretty significant annual financial burden without adding puppies.

I know yours are all young, under two I believe, but as Maltese age, even routine care is expensive. Most need yearly dentals ($200 here) and bloodwork every 6 months. (I just spent $225 on Lady's bloodwork last week). Yearly eye exams are about $100, heartworm checks $40, etc. 

Please just make a very responsible and informed decision before taking on such a responsibility.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

Maybe try putting a wee wee pad in her play pen.. and she if she will go on that. They may be able to use that as a sample. My first maltese was not spayed but she hardly had any blood when she was in heat. It lasted I think for a month but hardly any mess at all . I would deffinely take her back to the vet I hope your puppy feels better soon


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## CindyPham (Aug 31, 2004)

> The vet will probably want to take a sterile sample of urine to test anyway, so I wouldn't worry about collecting a sample yourself. If it were me, I'd take her in today. Excessive bleeding can be a sign of trouble and I wouldn't want to chance her getting worse after hours when your vet is closed. The fact that she's had a prior preganacy with complications and a c-section before would concern me.
> 
> FYI, in my book whether you breed once or a dozen times makes you a breeder. It's a huge financial responsibilty especially if you plan to keep the puppies. In another post I mentioned that I spend $3000 a year on Lady's medications and vet bills alone. Times 3 (you've got 3 now, right?) is a pretty significant annual financial burden without adding puppies.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I definitely know how much money goes into caring for them. I spend more than that on each of them alone, but money isn't an issue for me. They all get regular check ups at the vet also, but regardless I tend to over-worry even on the little things. She's never had a c-section, you must have me mistaken with someone else? How does the vet take her urnine sample? Last time I went he said that she had an empty stomach therefore he couldn't get any. I understand that the whole process of pregnancy is a result of her being breed, but that doesn't necessarily make me a breeder. To me, a breeder is someone who is more experienced and does it on a regular basis and then sell the puppies.


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

this is how a urine sample should be taken :
http://courses.vetmed.wsu.edu/samdx/cysto.asp
a lot of vets dont do it this way...i think b/c they dont want to take the time to do it. this is how i was shown to do it in school. it gives the best sample, and isnt contaminated. so try not to let he pee before she goes to the vet.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I apologize - you're right. The little puppy was born dead, no c-section. I remembered complications, but got c-section stuck in my head because they are so common in Maltese.

Just WHO and what IS a Breeder?

Technically, anyone who owns or leases a bitch and produces a litter out of her is a breeder of dogs. It is of no matter what considerations were involved in the choice of mate or what the puppies were like, or how they were disposed of- perhaps to the nearest pet shop. This person has bred a litter, the minimum requirement to becoming a Breeder. He is now on the lowest rung of the breeding ladder. How far upward he goes will depend on many factors, some of which are under his control, and some of which are matters of luck. Some people paint all their lives but never become real artists; some people raise hundreds of litters of puppies, but never become true Breeders. 

I urge you and everyone else considering breeding to read the whole article. It is very well written.

http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clearviewrottw...r4/breeder.html


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

If you are planning to breed her (get her pregnant) you are a breeder. IMHO.


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

> If you are planning to breed her (get her pregnant) you are a breeder. IMHO.[/B]










Totally agree


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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Yep, count me in. To me, being a responsible pet owner is not just caring for them and loving them but doing what is in the pet's best interest, which is to spay them so they won't get mammary tumors or be put in the position of possibly having a C-section or other complications from pregnancy. If someone wants a bunch of Malts, why not buy them from an experienced, reputable breeder rather than using your own sweet baby to produce pets for you.


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

breeder or not..thats not why she is posting...and in reality spaying her now wont help much health wise..the damage has been done, the estrogen is flowing in her system..if cancer was going to happen it will...the only thing it will prevent now is a pyometra.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> breeder or not..thats not why she is posting...and in reality spaying her now wont help much health wise..the damage has been done, the estrogen is flowing in her system..if cancer was going to happen it will...the only thing it will prevent now is a pyometra.[/B]


ah yes, my very good friend, you are correct. i was just disagreeing with a statement she made. she doesn't think breeding her dog makes her a breeder...and i disagree. however, i do wish her the best and hope her baby is ok.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

I think you said that she can't hold her water in ... So if you make an appointment to see the vet I guess you can bring some water and then give it to her just 5 or 10 min before appointment so the can get the sample.
that might work as well.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

How about a house full of rescues...Works for me...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> How about a house full of rescues...Works for me...[/B]


Works for me, too!

Seriously, your vet will probably want to culture a sterile sample since the first antibiotics don't seem to be working. He may want to do xrays, too, to check for stones. 

Been there, done all that!

Most likely she's not in heat and this is just a uti, but do be very careful to keep her isolated from your two males.

You mention she can't hold her urine. Is it little squats w/o much urine or a lot of urine? Unspayed females are at a higher risk for diabetes and although she's young, there are cases of juvenile diabetes. Often excessive, uncontrolled peeing and a uti are the first signs of diabetes. 

Not to scare you, just something you might want to mention to your vet. It's easy to check blood glucose. You can even buy those strips they sell at the drugstore to check glucose in urine, but they would probably cost you as much as a vet would charge to check her blood glucose and it would be accurate.

Another statistic to think about:

Canine diabetes is most common in unspayed older females. Study results show that 38 to 85 percent of older unspayed female dogs will develop diabetes.


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## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm not sure of the history of your girl, but unless she is a show dog of champion blood lines, she really shouldn't be bred. I come from a family of vets and spaying is something that is done for the health benefits of the dog.
If she is champion bred, then I don't see why you shouldn't breed her as long as you have expert supervision and are working to improve the Maltese breed and bloodlines. 

I hope you manage to sort out her current problem, I'm sure she'll be just fine after another vet visit.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Like others, I believe if you ever had a litter of puppies, you are a breeder. But to answer your questions, I have heard that the amount of blood could change as they age. Some Maltese are heavy bleeders while others aren't.

Sometimes having a litter and after care for the mom was not done properly, there could be damage to the uterus. There is also a chance that she has an urniary tract infection. I am by no means an expert in this but I suggest you ask your vet or find a mentor that will be able to answer your questions.

My mentors have been invaluable to me. They know so much more than I do and really have helped me along the way. They have so many years of experience down their belts. One day when I breed (which I do plan to once I finish a girl in the ring), I am sure they will be by my side helping me along the way. I don't think I can do it myself!


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

When I had my female Lhasa, I didn't get her fixed in the beginning for two reasons. The first reason being, I was scared to put her through the surgery. The second reason was I wanted her to have pups, someone had told me having atleast one litter was good for them and a way of PREVENTING cancer. I don't know if that is true or not...but, when I realized the work you had to put in for pups and putting her body through that scared me even more than the surgery. I got her fixed after 3 heat cycles. It was one summer where she was in heat and VERY clingy clawing at me...like if to say "mommy stop this" (heat cycle made her look very much in discomfort) I had to carry her around alot because I just felt sorry for her. I was very young and there was no internet at that time...so, I went on peoples words....

I did end up getting her fixed, and honestly felt more at ease with it. Always worried some strange dog would get into the yard while she was in heat. 

I wouldn't call someone who breeds their own dog once, a breeder. Perhaps call them a dog owner who wants to experience the opportunity to breed her own pups. There are health risks that come with everything including surgery. It's a matter of weighing the benefits vs. the risks. No reason for peer pressure here, we are all adults.

Anyway, while spay/neuter may be the responsible choice, it is a choice.

P.S.-- the c-section story might have come from me. My friend's french bulldogs mated because of his irresponsible roomate letting them mate while he wasn't home. Those dogs can not give birth without a c-section, the heads are to big (they are designer dogs). It was the vet that made the fatal mistake of saying they could give birth naturally. He lost two pups and two survived. I was around for the newborn puppy stage, feeding those babies every two hours is no picnic. He had to have his dad come visit so he could help feed through the night....my friend had to work at dawn.

So that story may have come from me.


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

> I wouldn't call someone who breeds their own dog once, a breeder. Perhaps call them a dog owner who wants to experience the opportunity to breed her own pups. There are health risks that come with everything including surgery. It's a matter of weighing the benefits vs. the risks. No reason for peer pressure here, we are all adults.
> 
> Anyway, while spay/neuter may be the responsible choice, it is a choice.[/B]


Just WHO and what IS a Breeder?

Technically, anyone who owns or leases a bitch and produces a litter out of her is a breeder of dogs. It is of no matter what considerations were involved in the choice of mate or what the puppies were like, or how they were disposed of- perhaps to the nearest pet shop. This person has bred a litter, the minimum requirement to becoming a Breeder. He is now on the lowest rung of the breeding ladder. How far upward he goes will depend on many factors, some of which are under his control, and some of which are matters of luck. Some people paint all their lives but never become real artists; some people raise hundreds of litters of puppies, but never become true Breeders. 

I urge you and everyone else considering breeding to read the whole article. It is very well written.

http://www.angelfire.com/nc/clearviewrottw...r4/breeder.html

Once again, Marj has found some wonderful literature on what's best for our babies.
Technically, she is a breeder. I don't see this as "peer pressure", more like educating members. When I was young I probably would have done the same thing if I had been able to. Now as an adult I wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> The second reason was I wanted her to have pups, someone had told me having atleast one litter was good for them and a way of PREVENTING cancer. I don't know if that is true or not...[/B]


If someone is interested in preventing cancer in their dog, one way to do that is to have them spayed before the first heat.

Facts vs. myth Spay/Neuter Benefits

Old myths that encourage owners to allow dogs to produce or father one litter prior to spaying or neutering are simply that, old myths. There are no medical or behavioral benefits to heading this wife's tale. Previous recommendations that females be spayed after their first heat cycle have also been changed. In fact, for female dogs, waiting to spay until after sexual maturity actually increases the likelihood of breast cancer. 

While it is never too late to spay or neuter a pet, medical research has proven that early surgical sterilization is both safe and beneficial.

The most significant health benefit attributed to spaying, as mentioned earlier, is a substantially decreased risk of mammary or breast cancer. Spaying females before their first heat cycle best minimizes this risk. With each successive heat cycle, a dog's chances of developing mammary cancer increases until she is approximately two years of age. 

Females spayed after this milestone have the same incidence of breast cancer as dogs that are intact. Because the spaying procedure involves the complete removal of the ovaries, fallopian tubes, and uterus, altered females are also immune from the risk of cancer and life-threatening infection of these organs. 

*Benefits of spaying * 

Prevents unwanted litters 
Eliminates heat periods 
Eliminates the risk of your pet developing a life-threatening infection of the uterus called a pyometra. 
Reduces the risk of mammary (breast) cancer. In dogs, a female spayed before her first heat will have a near-zero chance of developing mammary cancer. After the first heat, this incidence climbs to 7 percent, and after the second heat, the risk is 25 percent. If your pet has already gone through one or more heats, we still recommend spaying. Spaying can help shrink mammary cysts and prevents pyometra. 
Benefits of Spaying


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

Anyone who BREEDS their dog is a BREEDER....doesn't matter how many times it's done or for what purpose. You have BRED your dog.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

> Anyone who BREEDS their dog is a BREEDER....doesn't matter how many times it's done or for what purpose. You have BRED your dog.[/B]


hhhmmm, I guess we can't all agree on what a breeder is. My dad breeds chickens and goats (only 1 or 2) and I wouldn't call him a breeder, I would call him a small part time farmer....because he does this on a very small scale for himself...not for profit.

I always see breeders as those who do this to make a profit.

Who knows, this may be something she may find passion in and want to do...bless the breeders who provided us with our babies, what would have we done without them? Someone has to do it.

Check this out:
http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/k...nal/k9j001.html


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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I wouldn't exactly "bless" the breeders who provided me with mine. I would much rather give them a swift and painful kick in the teeth. Yep, one for Joplin's heart surgery, one for Billy's eyes, one for Henry's luxating patella, and one for Daisy's luxating patellas. I'll even throw in a couple kicks for Frankie, just for the heck of it.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

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I'd "bless out" Lady's breeders and join those kicks in the teeth - nice, _painful_ karate kicks!

One for her heart murmur, one for her diabetes, one for her arthritis.....

I'd get a voodoo doll for her epilepsy, though, and stick a pin in for each and every seizure that's wracked that poor little body for the past 6 years!

I bless each and everyone of you who has made the responsible decision to spay or neuter your pets and not support pet shops or puppy mills.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

Well, I consider myself a breeder. I have made the conscious decision to have children. And I certainly didn't do it for profit.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

Hi Everyone,

The person that opened this topic was looking for help regarding Vaginal Bleeding, Can we focus on that 
and help her and her puppy. Could I suggest opening another post for the other issue?
Right now I think she really needs help with her puppies Vaginal Bleeding issue. 

Since I'm not expert in this area , I would advide you to contact your vet and ask them what they required to get a good urine sample explain to them the sistuation.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> The person that opened this topic was looking for help regarding Vaginal Bleeding, Can we focus on that
> and help her and her puppy. Could I suggest opening another post for the other issue?
> ...


That was said to her many times.

I'll remove my post, if it upsets you that much.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> The person that opened this topic was looking for help regarding Vaginal Bleeding, Can we focus on that
> and help her and her puppy. Could I suggest opening another post for the other issue?
> ...


Hi Chelsey, I truly, truly do understand where you're coming from but there are some of us on here who are very passionate about this issue and we want to educate those who may read this board now and in the future. Since her question was related to the spaying/breeding issue, it is just about impossible for some of us to sit on our hands and not try to save someone's Malt (someone who may be reading this now or in the future) from having to go through breast cancer, pyometra, pregnancy complications, and the like... not to mention problems with any potential puppies......

I do think her original concern was adequately addressed.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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Yep, very passionate. I will never pass up an opportunity to promote spay/neuter. Good Lord, I'm running out of room at my house - lol


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

It sounds like Baby may have something more going on than just a normal heat cycle, let us know what the vet says. Both of my dogs are not spayed. Usually they keep themselves very clean during heat cycles and I never see any blood, other times they don't do as good a job. Chloe does wierd things when she is in heat. And having accidents in the house during that time, when otherwise she is completely housetrained, is not uncommon. Females do mark and they can get irritation in that area sometimes.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

I feel compelled to add my own personal experience with "thoughts" of breeding. When I was an uneducated, ignorant puppy hunter I had this vision of finding a female puppy and the breeding her so that I could have a house full of fluff balls and so that my friends could have these adorable puppies at an affordable cost. I could not for the life of me understand why the babies cost so much money. My very rude awakening came very early on when the first puppy I had a deposit on died before she was a week old. I was heartbroken but soon learned that not only do Maltese have small litters but that it is not at all unusual for one or more of the puppies to die. I also learned that Maltese seem to have a higher than normal risk of complications which can result in death during whelping. As fate would have it I did wind up with a puppy from the litter, a male (TY) and while I waited for him to be old enough to bring home I spent the time educating myself on Maltese and on breeding. 

My personal decision was that it was an irresponsible act to risk the life of my beloved pet to produce puppies which were not of superior standard and quality. Since the only way to "prove" the quality of a dog is to show that dog and achieve it's championship and I had no intention of doing that, any puppies I added to the Maltese gene pool would really not be much better than your typical pet store or puppy mill puppy.


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## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

> My personal decision was that it was an irresponsible act to risk the life of my beloved pet to produce puppies which were not of superior standard and quality. Since the only way to "prove" the quality of a dog is to show that dog and achieve it's championship and I had no intention of doing that, any puppies I added to the Maltese gene pool would really not be much better than your typical pet store or puppy mill puppy.[/B]


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> The person that opened this topic was looking for help regarding Vaginal Bleeding, Can we focus on that
> and help her and her puppy. Could I suggest opening another post for the other issue?
> ...



Amen.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Well said, Ginny! 

I think many people don't stop to think that even if your puppy came from a newspaper ad or that sweet lady down the street, it is still very likely a puppy mill puppy, just second or third generation. Just because he was born in someone's living room instead of a wire cage in a barn in Missouri does not make him any less susceptible to genetic disease. 

And if you mate him with another dog from a similar background, it's a crap shoot as someone in another thread said. 

And when the result is an 11 pound kinky coated dog with a cranky disposition who is diagnosed with liver disease a year later, you can't unring that bell.

A houseful of puppies is a wonderful fantasy, the stuff of a Disney movie. Not the real world, though, unfortunately.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

Cindy please take your little girl to the vet for a good checkup as soon as possible and keep us posted as to her condition.


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## maltx3 (Dec 23, 2004)

How is Baby doing today? I hope she is doing better. What did the vet say? Please let us know how she is.


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

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## Lacie2 (Sep 23, 2005)

[/QUOTE]































I'd "bless out" Lady's breeders and join those kicks in the teeth - nice, _painful_ karate kicks!

One for her heart murmur, one for her diabetes, one for her arthritis.....

[/QUOTE]

Hum, I have a heart murmer, I have diabetes, I have arthritis. I think I'll go down stairs and kick my mother.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> The person that opened this topic was looking for help regarding Vaginal Bleeding, Can we focus on that
> and help her and her puppy. Could I suggest opening another post for the other issue?
> ...










well said


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Just a few thought to ponder:

1. Most responsible breeders do not make money breeding. They have a paying job which supports this hobby. 

2. Why do poster automatically assume the dog in question is not of the same quality of the parents your own pet came from?

3. And, on this same note, why is it OK the preach against someone breeding their dog, yet you helped to support the same type situation by buying from breeders who did not do genetic testing nor show their own dogs.

4. If this were any other topic, would some of these posts be considered flame bait?


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## Malt Lover (Feb 17, 2005)

I think you have beat this dead horse to death! 

A poster came here looking for help, you gave her answers and information, so let's leave it at that! Should she choose to breed, then she has been given more than enough information from everyone here. Don't you think with this type of "attacking" all you do is run people off rather than help them? Why do you think so many people register but never post? 




> Just a few thought to ponder:
> 4. If this were any other topic, would some of these posts be considered flame bait?[/B]


Well said!


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> Just a few thought to ponder:
> 
> 1. Most responsible breeders do not make money breeding. They have a paying job which supports this hobby.
> 
> ...


Great post!!! I completely agree.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

The "breeding discussion" part of this thread should have been seperated off to a different thread to prevent it from looking like an attack on the original poster. Since every situation is different and every dog is different the choice to breed needs to be carefully thought out. My comments were not directed at the choice of the originial poster, only my own experience with the thought of "having puppies". I fully support the person who makes an informed educated decision to breed, as long as they have done their homework and know what they are getting into. I think it's a mistake to think that only the "professional breeders" with fancy kennels can breed but I also believe it's a mistake to think that it's something anyone can or should do.

I like Happy B's term "Responsible Breeder", to me that says so much more than how many ribbons or championships you have won. My point was that being a "Responsible Breeder" is a much greater undertaking and responsibility than I realized prior to becoming an owner.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

> I think you have beat this dead horse to death!
> 
> A poster came here looking for help, you gave her answers and information, so let's leave it at that! Should she choose to breed, then she has been given more than enough information from everyone here. Don't you think with this type of "attacking" all you do is run people off rather than help them? Why do you think so many people register but never post?[/B]


I agree. When you are worried about one of your babies and her health, the last thing you need is to be lectured.









Hopefully, she is doing ok.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

aaaaaaaahahahahaha! this thread is like the Energizer Bunny.....it keeps going and going and going.....


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I think it would be a good idea to have a pinned thread in this part of the forum, where members can post and discuss all of the information they have researched about spaying and not breeding. That way if you feel like someone needs to be educated about spaying their dog, you can direct their attention to that thread and then leave the rest of the discussion to the question that is posed by the original poster. Controversial topics like this always vear off in a different direction and can sometimes get mean and insulting. Just a thought...


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

> I think it would be a good idea to have a pinned thread in this part of the forum, where members can post and discuss all of the information they have researched about spaying and not breeding. That way if you feel like someone needs to be educated about spaying their dog, you can direct their attention to that thread and then leave the rest of the discussion to the question that is posed by the original poster. Controversial topics like this always vear off in a different direction and can sometimes get mean and insulting. Just a thought...[/B]


Good idea!


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## TuckersMom (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm wondering how Baby is doing?


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## Lacie2 (Sep 23, 2005)

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I also have been wondering how she is doing. 
After reading all the attacks on this thread I doubt if she is even following it anymore. I for one don't think I would come here looking for help if one of my pups had a problem. There is a big difference in being passionate about something and being mean spirited.


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## mpd (Jun 2, 2005)

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I agree with you, maybe too many pet owners "in heat" themselves! Oh! I forgot! It is called PMS in humans!









I am sorry, this forum seems so slanted to breeding only from "Show" stock, as if they never had any genetical problems, no recessive gene with faults at all! PLEASE!! 

To CindyPham







we hope Baby is okay and gives you a 6 perfectly healthy pups!


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## CindyPham (Aug 31, 2004)

I haven't been on here for the past 2 days, and this post really got more responses about the whole breeder/spaying issue than I had expected. 

First off, I’m sure most of you would agree to disagree with me, but I still will *NOT *consider myself a breeder even after assisting my dog through her pregnancy. Does taking care of someone’s injuries make me a doctor? Does cooking a meal make me a chef? Does painting a picture make me an artist? I guess what I'm trying to say is that someone who is considered to be something is *experienced *in what they do, it is their *vocational practice*. I don't think it's fair for me to be called a breeder when I don't know nearly as much as a TRUE breeder.

We can sit here and argue, but we are all going to come up with our own individual definition of what a breeder is, and technically I find truth and reasoning behind *both *sides. Technically, yes, breeding a dog makes you a breeder just as much as singing makes you a singer. On the other side, are you really a “breeder” or “singer” if you’ve bred or sang only a few times just for fun? What constitutes us to be anything, really? It’s usually achieved by meeting a set of standards. I don’t think I am there yet.

Here is what the dictionary’s definition of a breeder is: A breeder is a person who *practices the vocation *of mating carefully selected specimens of the same breed to reproduce specific, *consistently replicable *qualities and characteristics.

As for the whole “responsible” issue… so if I were to spay Baby, I automatically become responsible? Wow! Where do I sign up? I guess after spaying her I won’t need to feed her, look for the best vets week after week, buy her the perfect toys and treats (that takes me hours to find), spend any time with her, or anything else for that matter because I did my job as a “responsible” owner and spayed her! I’m just trying to make a point that spaying or neutering is a choice we all make that doesn’t stunt our responsibility as a parent and shouldn’t be looked at that way. 

I just don’t think it’s right for anyone to tell another person that it’s the “responsible” thing to do when it’s only a *small *part of responsibility. Why won’t I spay her and just buy puppies from “experienced” breeders? I want to be able to go through the pregnancy with her. To be there right by her side and see the miracles she brings into this world. That isn’t a feeling that can be bought or achieved any other way. It is a feeling and connection that is mutually shared between Baby and me. I have also researched for weeks and spoke to a lot of breeders and vets to attain any information prior to her pregnancy. We all have to start somewhere and being aware of all possibilities is in itself the best thing I could do, given the circumstances. 

Dogs have been around longer than anyone can remember, and they all survived without being spayed or neutered. When you think about it, spaying/neutering is not at all natural. I know it may help prevent diseases, but who here hasn’t have problems afterwards? Does is guarantee that your dog will be immune to any health risk out there? Regardless if she is the healthiest dog alive or if she’s ill, I am RIGHT there by her side till the end and *then some*. 

Call me what you must, “breeder” would actually be a compliment. LoL

Baby is fine. It turns out she was in heat and everything is normal. Some days her bleeding is heavy and others is light. I guess I'm just one of those parents that over-reacts to everything... =] 

I want to thank those that answered and asked about Baby and PMed me with warm words... I appreciate your input! =]


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

Glad to hear everything's ok!


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## chloeandj (Apr 1, 2005)

I was hoping you would post again. I'm glad Baby is ok.


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

So glad to hear that Baby is ok!














's for Baby.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

Very well said...
Glad Baby is ok...


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## Maltese Adora-Belle (Jan 23, 2005)

Very Happy to hear that Baby is ok. Thanks for posting the update.


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## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

> I haven't been on here for the past 2 days, and this post really got more responses about the whole breeder/spaying issue than I had expected.
> 
> First off, I’m sure most of you would agree to disagree with me, but I still will *NOT *consider myself a breeder even after assisting my dog through her pregnancy. Does taking care of someone’s injuries make me a doctor? Does cooking a meal make me a chef? Does painting a picture make me an artist? I guess what I'm trying to say is that someone who is considered to be something is *experienced *in what they do, it is their *vocational practice*. I don't think it's fair for me to be called a breeder when I don't know nearly as much as a TRUE breeder.
> 
> ...


I am also glad that Baby is ok - I don't really want to say anything that will make you more defensive, but think it is worth bearing in mind that even the most well meaning parent can learn things from others - even those with differing opinions and experiences. I have personally learned plenty from others on the boards and first hand! The story of your girls first pregancy was heartbreaking to me and I am a little sad that you wouldn't try to protect her from another similar experience, even putting aside the health benefits. Still that is your choice and I am glad that her current problem is resolved. I know that everyone wants the best for their furkids on these boards even if we don't all agree on some issues.


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## Lacie2 (Sep 23, 2005)

> I haven't been on here for the past 2 days, and this post really got more responses about the whole breeder/spaying issue than I had expected.
> 
> First off, I’m sure most of you would agree to disagree with me, but I still will *NOT *consider myself a breeder even after assisting my dog through her pregnancy. Does taking care of someone’s injuries make me a doctor? Does cooking a meal make me a chef? Does painting a picture make me an artist? I guess what I'm trying to say is that someone who is considered to be something is *experienced *in what they do, it is their *vocational practice*. I don't think it's fair for me to be called a breeder when I don't know nearly as much as a TRUE breeder.
> 
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Cindy,
Well said.






















I'm very glad Baby is OK.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

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I am glad Baby is doing well. How are your other furbabies doing? I am glad you shared with us, always know that no matter the opinions, we hopefully care about one another.


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## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

Glad you puppy is ok


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

Happy to hear Baby is fine. I had a feeling she would be.

I just finished grooming Max, does that make me a Groomer????
















One who grooms, right??









Just felt like being silly.









I'm sharing this pic, because I just took it:



<span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium">Mersada The Amateur Groomer</span>


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

> Happy to hear Baby is fine. I had a feeling she would be.
> 
> I just finished grooming Max, does that make me a Groomer????
> 
> ...


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

I am very glad that Baby is okay. However, I do have to say the following in response to your post:

Of course its your dog and you can do as you like with her. It really doesn't matter whether you consider yourself to be a breeder or not or what anyone else thinks of the definition. Its just a label. What does bother me is that you are implying that other posters only neuter/spay their dogs as the "only responsible thing" they do for their pets. If you read all the posts on here, clearly people do a lot more for their pets than just spay/neuter them. And no one said that its the only thing you need to do for Baby. Of course you need to feed her, play with her, buy her stuff, take her to the vet. All those things are implied.

The other point that bother me is that you want to breed Baby to "see the miracles she brings into this world". I don't think its fair to her -- do you think that's what she would want for herself? For instance, when we have skin kids, I would never dream of making my daughter have kids so that I could see the miracle of birth. I can do that myself and put myself through pregnancy and birth and having to raise the kid. My mom doesn't want me to have kids for herself. She wants me to have kids only if we want them. Obviously its dogs and its different. But you yourself mentioned how devastated she seemed after the loss of the first one, right?

And finally, my last question -- you never did mention if she is registered, if she fits the standard or can be shown in the ring? Of course its your choice and your dog and I don't mean to offend you.


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

OKW, those are excellent points. Well said.


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## ButterCloudandNoriko (Aug 26, 2004)

Seriously, she isn't going to change her mind. If anything, we are driving her away and what good is that for her furbabies? SM is about making connections and being informative...NOT POLITICS! There is a fine line. And we do have a section you can talk about this on SM. Please don't force this on anyone. That isnt the way to get the point across. Look at how much research she's done on preparing for her furbabies for birth! You really think she DIDN'T do research on Spaying/Nuetering? 

Let's not go on the deep end here. We can argue til the cows come home! We went through this how many times already? For every argument one makes THERE WILL *ALWAYS *BE A COUNTERARGUMENT. Ya'll can try me if you want. I can argue both sides VERY WELL. It's a complicated topic. But we are all individuals and Cindy's an adult and we can all make our own minds. 

So Cindy, you want to be a grandma?


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## Pippinsmom (Nov 29, 2004)

Look...she ISN'T a breeder...cause like she said, that would be too BIG a compliment to give her. All she wants to do is breed a litter to keep for herself, which is fine with me because I wouldn't be interested in a puppy from her anyway. The first attempt turned out disasterous, she obviously wasn't devastated enough by the loss of the first pup and decided to buy a smaller male and try again. While I would never go out of my way to help someone who is breeding for what is IMO selfish reasons, I'm not going to crucify her for wanting to do it. I'm sure there are people out there who will give her the advice and help she needs, and hopefully she will have a positive outcome next time around. 

And for the pet owners on here...if you don't know anything about breeding or heat cycles and don't have anything constructive to add to the thread...then why post? I have an unspayed female here who hasn't gone thru her first heat yet and is not being spayed...do you feel by that sentence alone you know enough about me to judge the who, why and wherefore? No, you don't. So let's all get off the "high moral ground"...because we are all guilty of making decisions that another person may not agree with. 

JMO.

P.S. Olga, this is not aimed at you or anyone in particular, just how I feel about this thread. There are PLENTY of places on this forum to find info about the benefits of spay/neuter, just ONCE it would be nice to have a thread related to breeding/heat cycle questions that can actually stay on topic. Who knows, maybe we would all learn something.


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## faun (Jun 12, 2005)

This lady came looking for opions on a health problem. All of a sudden it began to sound like that other place that







nobody likes. Yes we all have a right to our opions. It is not our place to make a decision for anyone else. I'm surprised the nice lady came back to tell us her baby is fine. Please, please,please don't make this like the other place.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> I think it would be a good idea to have a pinned thread in this part of the forum, where members can post and discuss all of the information they have researched about spaying and not breeding. That way if you feel like someone needs to be educated about spaying their dog, you can direct their attention to that thread and then leave the rest of the discussion to the question that is posed by the original poster. Controversial topics like this always vear off in a different direction and can sometimes get mean and insulting. Just a thought...[/B]



I agree with Chloeandj...and I may get stoned for this...

Ok, I know I will not be very popular for this, and that is ok by me, because I KNOW I am not the only one that feels this way...

But I am very annoyed with the spay/neuter preaching that occurs on here.
I just grit my teeth and cringe every time someone unknowingly says something about breeding their babies...because I know the poo is getting ready to hit the fan! 
I know what is going to be said, who is going to say it, and how many times it is going to be said different ways! It drives me BATTY!









In my opinion...(which won't be very popular) it is like some people are trying to be the Hitler's of the maltese world.
Only dogs that are "show worthy", with genetic testing completed...should be bred. This is NEVER going to happen, no matter how hard we try!!!! What would happen to our population if only the "perfect" people were allowed to have children? (I HATE comparing dogs/people, but I am going to at this time!)
I know a couple that had a deadly genetic disease that one of them carried and they did genetic testing before deciding to have children. Very responsible of them. The rest of us have children knowing that we are passing down allergies, diabetes, acne, big hips, crooked teeth...etc. Are we irresponsible? Maybe so if you compare it with the dog world. But then what happens when that one recessive gene that didn't show up for generations suddenly shows up and you get a health defect in a skin kid that you were not expecting? Both my kids have slight heart murmers and my son was born with a small hole in his heart? How were we to know that could happen? I am sure it is probably in my husband or mine's family somewhere, since both my kids have the murmer, but were we irresponsible since we passed that down to them?
I almost had to have c-section too b/c I had a large baby who I couldn't push out...was it irresponsible of me to mate with my husband who is a foot taller than me, knowing that his daddy was a record breaking birth weight baby in Tennessee and that there was a big chance I could have a big baby?

I know it is not ALL completely the same, and like I said, I HATE comparing dogs/people...but sometimes this group drives me crazy.
Why do we have to assume that everyone that comes to join the site is an ignorant dog owner? This site is full of wonderful information and I know we have changed the minds of several who were considering breeding just for the heck of it...or maybe they just SAID we changed their minds to shut us up!!!???
I am one of those...but my mind was changed after reading MO. So I am not saying it shouldn't be said, just shouldn't be the "theme" of the forum. I am in favor of spaying/neutering...but it is not for every one. And we don't know the ins/outs of every situation and circumstance. 
Some people's minds are not going to be changed whether they are knowledgeable about the topic or not...who are WE to judge them without knowing?!!!???? Give them the information you feel they need to know in a kind and informative way...and then leave it alone!

I think...we should have a section labeled...(really big and noticeable) "So, you are thinking of breeding your dog?" Something like that...a pinned section that all the opinions can go in.
When someone posts about it, we can direct them there without having to hear/read the same thing OVER and OVER again and maybe their original question can be answered in the meantime!!!


Ok, stepping down off my soap-box.
Glad I got that off my chest!
Let the stones fly!!!!


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## Char-Luv-4-Maltese (Feb 26, 2005)

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Amen to all that. WE all have to learn from somewhere but I as a breeder get very offended when people think I am a puppy mill selll to brokers and so on . I love my dogs and they are my KIDZ and I didn't know a whole lot when I started breeding I have came along ways Thanks to awonderuld breeder (I will not say she likes to not be on the news) Until others has seen how I care and keep my fluffs and how much I love them and how honest I am then they need to look at themselves cause they are just jealous of somebody that loves there Fluffs . Trust me there is good honest breeders out there no doubt in my mind their is. But there is others out there that like to tell others how to be a good breader when they need to be living it themsleves before they start pointing the finger or telling others about ther knowledge till they have lived it Just taking other breaders word and tips on it on things they need to live it before sharing it I feel. This is my add to this topic


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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Boy, do I agree with you. I have no doubt that you love your babies, and that they get loads of love and care. 
I also agree 100% with you about the breeder you are referring to. I know that she got very little sleep for almost two weeks when your little one was born, as she was up taking care of him and his tiny brothers. 
Not everyone is cut out to be a breeder. I know there are virtual tapes on what goes on in breeding and whelping a litter, but unless you have lived through it, you really can't understand. That would be like me giving flight instructions to someone because I watched movies on flying and read a book, but never flew a plane. It's more than just putting two dogs together and letting nature take its course. It is about loving your baby, but still being fearful that something will happen and you may loose her if you do breed. It's about going to the vet in the middle of the night. It's about dealing with loosing pups, and it's about the long hours you put into caring for them once they arrive. It's about dealing with crap from people who want to trash you for breeding, and it's about dealing with others who complain that you want more than two or three hundred dollars for your pup. It's also about the joy of watching for the black points to come in, the eyes to open, and the first steps, the feel of how they wiggle and cuddle when you hold them. It's about watching them play with each other as well as watching their mom teach them things. But, the final rewards come when you put that pup into the hands of its new owner, or you get pictures, emails, and letters in the future.
Not every good dog comes from champion parents. If that were the case, very few on this list would even own a Maltese. Not very dog came from a caring breeder such as you are, Char, or the breeder you got Little Man from. 
It sure would be nice if, when I had the next litter, I had some of these advice givers here for a few weeks to go through it with me so they could see just what really goes into getting a healthy pup to them.


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## miko's mommy (Feb 8, 2005)

> OKW, those are excellent points. Well said.[/B]


Thank you, Sylphide and Shrek's mom.







I appreciate your support.

As for everyone else, I wasn't trying to crucify anyone. Frankly, I don't care if she breeds or not -- I wouldn't buy pups from her myself even if they were for sale. Yes, I did buy from a backyard breeder over 2 yrs ago, but as I mentioned multiple times, we were young, did not know anything about dogs/maltese (or luxating patellas) and its nothing I would ever do again. How many of you have dogs with 2 luxating patellas, watched your dog go through knees surgery, payed $2500 and suffered through 8 weeks of confinement? Who knows if tommorow we will be facing liver shunt issues? Or kidney disease? A few weeks ago, I was literally crying for 30 minutes straight because I thought he was limping again.

And Traci, I really don't think its the same as having kids ourselves. We are not here to produce perfect looking people (or perfectly healthy ones either). The goals with dog breeding are different. My husband and I are not perfect looking and by the time we get to having kids, we may end up having unhealthy kids (although I sincerely hope it will not be the case).


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

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Well said.


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## ButterCloudandNoriko (Aug 26, 2004)

Well, why is it different when it comes to humans versus dogs? You have kids knowing you have weight problems, or depression, or bone problems, heart problems, liver problems...etc and knowing that they'll probably get it too...why on earth would you try to have kids knowing all that about yourself? And the cost for human problems are way more expensive than a dog's. And for goodness sakes look at how violent the "real world" has gotten. And look at our schools! They're bringing GUNS to school and shooting everyone! You want to bring our skin kids to THIS kind of world? Sound's worse than a dog's life even if they do have health issues. So why is it ok for us? And if you answer why, maybe you can understand Cindy's point of view just a little bit. And if you can come at me with your counter strike, more likely I can do the same. 

Ya'll get what I'm really trying to say? We're beating a dead horse here. I respect how passionate you are about this spay/nueter topic, but really now, what more can you say in a thread about vaginal bleeding? We can say that her breeding is wrong, but shoot, can we also say that BUYING a dog is wrong too? Can we say "why in the world are you BUYING a dog when there are so many maltese in shelters?" All of us who has BOUGHT a dog for LOTS of money....are we wrong too? Wouldn't the RIGHT thing to do is to adopt from a shelter!? Wouldn't that help with the dog population WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more than buying from a reputable breeder? 

Ya'll get what I'm saying? THE HORSE IS DEAD! 

Ya'll know I love SM and the ppl apart of it to bits. Just dont forget that even if we disagree, we dont have to not like each other! LOL


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Why do you set the standard higher for dogs then for people ? Frankly it should be the other way around. How many hereditary diseases could we eliminate if every couple would go through genetic testing and avoid putting on this earth sick children ? We would save a lot of health care money. 

If she want's to keep the puppies for herself, it really does not matter one way or another if her dog is registered or not. Registration is important only if you want to show. I could have registered Alex but why bother since I am not showing him. 

And finally don't kid yourselves. Even buying from a so called reputable breeder is not garanty to get a puppy without any health problems. Testing a pup before keeping it is no garanty either. Some diseases show up only later in life.


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## Sylphide and Shrek's Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

Those of us who support spay/neutering as a part of responsible pet ownership are joined by the nation’s largest, most respected organizations dedicated to the health and welfare of domestic animals, such as:

The Humane Society of the United States http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/why_you_...r_your_pet.html

The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/why_you_...r_your_pet.html

and the American Veterinary Medical Association 
http://www.avma.org/communications/brochur...-neuter_faq.asp


I, for one, will continue to be a vocal proponent of responsible pet ownership, for which the choice to spay/neuter is the only responsible choice. Any amount of bashing or vocal opposition to my position will in no way deter me from stating this position when the opportunity arises to educate pet owners on the vital importance of spay/neutering to the health and well-being of our fur-babies.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

All those organizations advocate spay/neuter MOSTLY for limiting the animal population because of all the unwanted pets they have to euthanize. Health and welfare is only a small part.


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## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

> Please don't force this on anyone. That isnt the way to get the point across. Look at how much research she's done on preparing for her furbabies for birth! You really think she DIDN'T do research on Spaying/Nuetering?[/B]


If I have missed a thread/ post which talked about research on preparing her furbabies for birth then I apologize. I guess I only saw the first post about her tiny female who was raped twice by her much larger male and the resulting puppy suffocating to death because it was too large - can you imagine the trauma her female went through trying to give birth to a puppy which was too big for her birth canal? Then she went through the psycholgical trauma of trying to find the pup she gave birth to which had died and lost 1.5lbs which she never gained back.
Now I understand that mistakes can happen and after she was preganant was too late to do anything about it, but to DELIBERATLY leave her unspayed so that she can be bred and put through the same horror again strikes me as odd.

I think the responce to this story was incredibly mild - people suggested spaying so it wouldn't happen again and noted the health benefits of that. 
These suggestions were rebuffed and those rebuffals supported by other people on this board. I just cannot fathom it and cannot support it.

Finally the point made about dogs in the wild surviving without spay/ neuter is a little off track - please remember that wild dogs which did not live up to the required health standards were simply left to die - only the strongest survived. These are not wild dogs where survival of the fitest reigns true - these are purpose bred, small dogs who need looking after and look to us to do it.
That is why it makes sense to do what has been proved by vetinarians the world over to be in their best interests. I didn't just wake up one day and decide to put Audrey through an operation for the fun of it. If you research the health benefits there is little doubt that spaying them helps the little guys out in the long run. It's a medical fact. And OF COURSE that doesn't mean that I now don't have to look after her further or that she will automatically be free of disease - but at least I am doing my best to give her the best chance of a healthy life.
Everyone who decides not to spay their females for whatever reason, fine - but please don't accuse those who are only trying to raise awareness and help out those who don't know of preaching/ crucifying people, etc. If you look over the posts the most forceful ones are from those people who HAVEN'T spayed their dogs and are trying to justify their decision!


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## mimi2 (Mar 29, 2005)

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AMEN!!


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## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

> All those organizations advocate spay/neuter MOSTLY for limiting the animal population because of all the unwanted pets they have to euthanize.[/B]


And you don't consider this a good enough reason in itself?


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## ButterCloudandNoriko (Aug 26, 2004)

RAPE? Is there really such word in the dog/animal world? Mating is a natural thing. They are going to WANT to mate regardless of what size they are or what we call it. Shoot, professional breeder or not, giving birth is traumatizing all together!

And also, I am a supporter of spaying/neutering. I have also made suggestions to people about spaying/neutering. I am not a supporter of shoving my views down people's throats. 

Part of us will say that spaying/nuetering is the best thing we can do for our babies' health. Part of us will feel that it's a natural process for them to have babies and the thought of cutting them open and taking out body parts that the Lord gave them isn't right. 

I just don't feel that being so pushy is the SM way. And I don't feel less of an Spay/neuter advocate for being who I am.


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## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

> RAPE? Is there really such word in the dog/animal world? Mating is a natural thing. They are going to WANT to mate regardless of what size they are or what we call it. Shoot, professional breeder or not, giving birth is traumatizing all together!
> 
> And also, I am a supporter of spaying/neutering. I have also made suggestions to people about spaying/neutering. I am not a supporter of shoving my views down people's throats.
> 
> ...


That was the word SHE used. Go read the post.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> Ya'll get what I'm saying? THE HORSE IS DEAD![/B]










LOL!
To steal your quote, I am getting off this dead horse before it turns to soup!









Agreeing to disagree...


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

Well, isn't it interesting to know that Baby just had a change in amount of discharge, just like maturing women.

To the person that made referance to Nazi's of the Malti population!!







That is so right on target.
There are no guarantees in life, even from champion breeders.

Well, now Baby's mom may not share the experience of childbirth with us because she wants it to be a positive experience. 

Impregnating your dog isn't a punishment, it's the most natural thing in the world. Unnatural would be having them fixed....but, modern day society has given us our reasons. Next will be all the welfare moms out there, only a matter of time.









Good luck with breeding when it's finally time. Share with us, why don't you.

I bought my lhasa from a backyard breeder....never had any health issues. It's luck of the draw, whatever God desides, not man.


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## faun (Jun 12, 2005)

I could understand this strong discusion on MO but not here. Some here are saying that unless we have thousands of dollars to buy from "respectable breeders" we should not have our babies. How many of us have babies that we got from backyard breeders?
Some say the "respectable breeders" should be the only ones allowed to breed. It will be a sad day when that happens. I'd say the price of those pups will go through the roof. Supply and demand dictates that.
I am NOT saying these breeders are not honest caring people. I would think they would have to be to produce beautiful, healthy well adjusted babies. By the same token not all new breeders are puppie mills. If I were younger was sure I had 20 more years, I would find the best quality maltese I could afford and breed them. Not to make money,because I probably would never be able to turn loose of them but I have been through this experience before. There was nothing like the relationship Queen and I forged when she was pregnant. I carried her when she was too big to climb the steps. I rubbed her belly and talked to her about her squrmers and I was also there and helping her when she gave birth to her 7 pups. Queen was a border collie so 7 pups was not that many. I massaged, suctioned and puffed into the lungs of the baby that didn't make it and I cried with her. One of her pups stepped between his new owner's toddler and took a rattle snake bite. God had a reason for that pup to be there that day. I had queen and one of her pups until the day they died. Does this make me a puppy mill?
I am an advocate of spay/neuter most of the time and I hate a puppy mill with all my heart but there are exceptions. I hope I have not upset anyone, that is not my intent but just as you are intitled to your opinion, so am I.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

.........and going and going and going.........


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## Vikki and Audrey (Jan 12, 2005)

> To the person that made referance to Nazi's of the Malti population!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow - I can't think of a single thing to respond to a post like this exept to say that I think it is both shocking and deeply offensive.

When things dejenerate to the point of calling other people Nazis and suggesting that the people who have tried to give advice regarding health benefits for dogs would go after welfare mothers is absolutely unbelieveable.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129381
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> 
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> ...



I am the one that made the Hitler remark...trying to compare only breeding for the IDEAL maltese to Hitler's trying to keep his only desirable race or whatever.







Nobody called anyone a Nazi!







You can go back and read my long post. I didn't want to repost it.


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## CindyPham (Aug 31, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129338
> 
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Yes, I used the word "*rape*" only to show how I felt. It wasn't as if she didn't let him because trust me, she wanted it. Why? Well, it's a little thing called animal urges. 

I hope I didn't come off as someone who sees either black or white because I see BOTH sides and can argue BOTH well. I am in no way AGAINST spaying or nuetering, but I just don't feel that's what I want for Baby. 

The important thing is, I keep all my furkids healthy. I provide them with way more than they really need. I even come on a dog forum to share and talk about them! How crazy is that to the rest of the population of dog owners out there? People laugh and think I'm silly for coming on "some dog" forum. I tell them so many good things about this website, and even with all the negativity from some of you, I still think it's a great site. I read each and every post by everyone, and they are all very informative. Isn't that why we are on here in the first place? To learn and share our information with each other? I do feel some people are a little "pushy" on here, but I know they have their reasons. But just don't persist to sell me something I wasn't even looking at in the first place, you know? I always felt this site was very open and welcoming, but now it seems like people will and do pick their sides. If this keeps up, we might lose and steer members away from posting. 

I haven't read any of the post after this one that I'm responding to... so here I go... again, thanks for *all *your posts!









*EDIT*
So I read that some people would never consider buying a dog from me? LoL. Who said I would ever considering to sell them? I would NEVER put a price on these little to-be spoiled babies. I know the more dogs I decide to have, the more $$$, right? Well, I am well prepared. I'm even thinking about starting some rescues later on in the future. I am in the process of building them a HOUSE, but that's another topic and story.


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> I even come on a dog forum to share and talk about them! How crazy is that to the rest of the population of dog owners out there? People laugh and think I'm silly for coming on "some dog" forum. I tell them so many good things about this website,[/B]



Yeah, me too...my friends are like...you talked to this person on "what?"








I know they think I am nuts!!


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## CindyPham (Aug 31, 2004)

> Happy to hear Baby is fine. I had a feeling she would be.
> 
> I just finished grooming Max, does that make me a Groomer????
> 
> ...


LoL! You're hilarious! =] Max is looking really good! I've been grooming my furkids for a while now, too. I actually took a class!







I just hate the idea of leaving them somewhere with someone I don't know grooming them for who knows how long. The first step in grooming dogs... is patience! They sure do take longer to groom than any humans I know!







It's all so worth it in the end though!


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## CindyPham (Aug 31, 2004)

> I could understand this strong discusion on MO but not here. Some here are saying that unless we have thousands of dollars to buy from "respectable breeders" we should not have our babies. How many of us have babies that we got from backyard breeders?
> Some say the "respectable breeders" should be the only ones allowed to breed. It will be a sad day when that happens. I'd say the price of those pups will go through the roof. Supply and demand dictates that.
> I am NOT saying these breeders are not honest caring people. I would think they would have to be to produce beautiful, healthy well adjusted babies. By the same token not all new breeders are puppie mills. If I were younger was sure I had 20 more years, I would find the best quality maltese I could afford and breed them. Not to make money,because I probably would never be able to turn loose of them but I have been through this experience before. There was nothing like the relationship Queen and I forged when she was pregnant. I carried her when she was too big to climb the steps. I rubbed her belly and talked to her about her squrmers and I was also there and helping her when she gave birth to her 7 pups. Queen was a border collie so 7 pups was not that many. I massaged, suctioned and puffed into the lungs of the baby that didn't make it and I cried with her. One of her pups stepped between his new owner's toddler and took a rattle snake bite. God had a reason for that pup to be there that day. I had queen and one of her pups until the day they died. Does this make me a puppy mill?
> I am an advocate of spay/neuter most of the time and I hate a puppy mill with all my heart but there are exceptions. I hope I have not upset anyone, that is not my intent but just as you are intitled to your opinion, so am I.[/B]


I really was touched by your experience with Queen. Although the first time with Baby had gone horribly wrong, it somehow made Baby and me closer with each other. An unbreakable bond. Yes she was sad, but having me there with her made it all the more better, you know? After that experience we developed not only a bond, but trust on top of that. She knows and understand now that I will be there for her in her most vulnerable state. She is so secure with herself. We will all go through our heartbreaking moments with them and sometime even slip up ourselves... but no one is perfect. As hard as we try... at least we are doing something about it! I appreciate you sharing your story with us. I look forward to our future posts together.


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## MaxMommy (Nov 1, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=129381
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't direct it toward anyone in particular, it was a general statement...so, I can't find how you'd feel offended. This whole thread is offensive to one person, don't you think?

My comment was in regards to those who have issues with birthing and over population and poor breeding. If you (not YOU in particular) think that way about dogs....why wouldn't you think the same of those who can't provide for children yet keep having them? What is the difference. The latter is actualy worse....and MORE irresponsible.

To think, in AMerica we need organizations such as these:
http://www.feedthechildren.org/site/PageSe...dotorg_homepage

..........and (some) of you people worry about this Malti mommy wanting to breed her pup. For some reason, I think her pups will be better taken care of than those kids on that website.

Let's get our priorities straight here and lighten up. I am sure Baby is in very good hands.

Our dogs are provided for more than most children in the world, think about it. Lighten up folks!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I think this constant comparison between breeding dogs and humans is like comparing apples and oranges and does not belong in this discussion.

Two humans who "breed" in this country and produce a child have a legal obligation to that child until he or she is 18 years old. Should they be unable to fullfill this legal obligation for any reason, laws are in place to protect and care for that child. A child born with a genetic disease is also afforded this protection and protected by the courts.

A puppy miller or backyard breeder has no such legal obligation to the puppies produced by careless matings. Some states have lemon laws to protect the consumer, but none protect the puppies. There is no Medicaid for puppies born with genetic defects and no guardian appointed for these puppies. There is no legal responsibilty to the puppies produced, only an ethical one. 

Sharing the "miracle of birth" is one of the top reasons debunked by humane societies across the country for not spaying or neutering your pet. Unfortunately, the miracle of birth goes hand and hand with the "miracle of death" as Baby's mom saw firsthand.


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