# Ruptured Anterior Cruciate Ligament (ACL) in Dogs



## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

When a dog has done this are they in continuous pain? Can they lay on the leg ?


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## lillykins (Oct 15, 2007)

We suspect that Charlotte's ACL was blown possibly before we got her. In time, because the body is not using the now defunct ligament, the body reabsorbs it and there's nothing left to repair. Charlotte's leg must've gotten so painful! She was not using that leg for anything; the leg muscles are very much smaller than the muscles on her other back leg. You can actually feel the difference when actively manipulating both back legs at the same time.

Some surgeons will attempt to create a new ACL. Instead, our surgeon performed TPLO surgery November 5th. Charlotte's no longer in pain, and is using the leg more and more every day.

Do a search of "Charlotte" in Health & Behavior to find the threads on her surgery.

Good luck! It's tough to figure out what's going on when they hide it so well.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Maltese Jane's Alex tore his ACL and had surgery a few years ago. You can do a search in her topics or pm her.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks i will do the search 

She is itching with the leg now her ears and she lays on it just need some more signs from others that experienced it to learn more in case this is what it is


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Gosh, this is breaking my heart.

Is a rupture the same as a torn ACL?


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I've always heard there is great pain from a tear. Surely the vet can tell.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Kara did tear her ACL....and oh my gosh, she twisted her body, like a pretzel, from the pain. It was awful.

But I am not sure if rupture is the same as torn ACL.

I do know in Kara's case...the Ortho doc...tries his best, not to operate on the little ones...but there are times that he does have to.

He said, on the larger breeds, surgery is a definite.

He perscribed Cosequin for Kara...complete rest...and she was able to avoid surgery.

But I don't know if that is the same thing as this little baby has.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

they said they have to sedate to be able to do the drawer test to see if the two bones are loose but i would think he could have told yesterday as he moved and manipulated leg and felt everything -- his gut is it is not but not 100% sure so trying to gather as much info as i can before thursday 

she is now itching her self on the face with that leg so would think she could not do that if hurt. she is itching side with it too - still no acting out of pain other than not putting full weight bearing on it  she is hopping around with it so a little pressure on it


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 10:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733409


> they said they have to sedate to be able to do the drawer test to see if the two bones are loose but i would think he could have told yesterday as he moved and manipulated leg and felt everything -- his gut is it is not but not 100% sure so trying to gather as much info as i can before thursday
> 
> she is now itching her self on the face with that leg so would think she could not do that if hurt. she is itching side with it too - still no acting out of pain other than not putting full weight bearing on it  she is hopping around with it so a little pressure on it[/B]



Oh gosh, :grouphug:

That's how Kara's doc determined it to be ACL tare, by manipulating...which did cause her to cry out, during one of his movements .

If I can gather any information I send your way. If you trusted your vet before today....I'm sure he's the same great guy...he was before...but I really understand, when that awful doubting creeps in.

Hang in there... :grouphug:


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok well since she was totally calm when he did things to leg then most likely not i hope 

first time i took dd to him as feeling him out and he was the only one with a digital xray machine and wanted that used instead of regular xray as it picks up on fractures better and i wanted cd to take to specialist if i needed further testing and have that now. I am going to have him email it to me to email orthopedic today 

I thought mri you cand see ligaments and tendons, etc -- I ruptured my achilles tendon in 2005 - it was very painful and they can pic that up in mri wondering why you could not pick that up on mri -- i would have to drive far to tustin to get mri done as that is closest i guess but willing to inorder to not put her under 

I am just trying to get my info and be prepared for the worst and hope for the best 


QUOTE (Allheart @ Feb 24 2009, 11:07 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733413


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 10:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733409





> they said they have to sedate to be able to do the drawer test to see if the two bones are loose but i would think he could have told yesterday as he moved and manipulated leg and felt everything -- his gut is it is not but not 100% sure so trying to gather as much info as i can before thursday
> 
> she is now itching her self on the face with that leg so would think she could not do that if hurt. she is itching side with it too - still no acting out of pain other than not putting full weight bearing on it  she is hopping around with it so a little pressure on it[/B]



Oh gosh, :grouphug:

That's how Kara's doc determined it to be ACL tare, by manipulating...which did cause her to cry out, during one of his movements .

If I can gather any information I send your way. If you trusted your vet before today....I'm sure he's the same great guy...he was before...but I really understand, when that awful doubting creeps in.

Hang in there... :grouphug:
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## nikkivong (Aug 25, 2006)

otis just had the surgery. when he tore his acl, he was out for almost a whole day, refused to move and used it very lightly for the next few days. the vet did the drawer test on otis and it confirmed that he had an acl tear. it is not about 2 months since his surgery and he's doing much better. he DEF uses his leg a lot more but he still prefers the good leg. We started with light walks and will continue to build on those walks.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

did he flinch when they manipultated leg as she did not flinch one bit the whole time - he said he needed to sedate to do the drawer test  but he did manipulate the leg alot 

the first day and each day she ran to door and moved around and never cried when holding her or anything but would not put pressure on leg and it happened at 9am on sunday and still not walking on it much today  she is kind of hopping off of it a little though and she is itching herself with the leg on face and on side so is that a good sign 


QUOTE (nikkivong @ Feb 24 2009, 11:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733420


> otis just had the surgery. when he tore his acl, he was out for almost a whole day, refused to move and used it very lightly for the next few days. the vet did the drawer test on otis and it confirmed that he had an acl tear. it is not about 2 months since his surgery and he's doing much better. he DEF uses his leg a lot more but he still prefers the good leg. We started with light walks and will continue to build on those walks.[/B]


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## lillykins (Oct 15, 2007)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 10:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733434


> as she did not flinch one bit the whole time - he said he needed to sedate to do the drawer test  but he did manipulate the leg alot
> 
> the first day and each day she ran to door and moved around and never cried when holding her or anything but would not put pressure on leg and it happened at 9am on sunday and still not walking on it much today  she is kind of hopping off of it a little though and she is itching herself with the leg on face and on side so is that a good sign[/B]


Charlotte always used her 'bad' leg for scratching so I would caution against using that as an 'ok' sign.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I've seen a good number of cruciate dogs...some are very stoic so that slightl lameness is the only symptom...most are painful.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Jackie, what is a cruciate dog? (sorry, but thanks for sharing your knowledge :grouphug:


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks -- just got off phone with vet and he spoke to radiologist and dd has grade 4 luxating patella in both back legs which she has managed well but out all the time he said which is odd as never does it pop out or does she scream out or anything. He said radiologist confirmed his findings and hoping it is a sprain and will know in a week if she is not doing better then he would be happy to have me get a second opinion and he will give me recommendations but he said he does a ton of surgeries and he said acl is not a big deal but luxating patella is bad so he said no need to do anything now but if he puts her out and she does have acl straight to surgery and dental at same time but I told him not until i get a second opinion first and he said that was fine with him and he was very nice about it. I told him how i was feeling and he was very kind and i said i am very informed dog owner and he said he wished more people were like that and he welcomes that 

I new it every time i take her in they find something more wrong with her  now grade 4 luxating patella - what a total nightmare 

when she was 6mos the one vet said it was in one leg now both and now it is probably worse after all the frisbee playing -- he said no more frisbee for dee dee no movements like that like tennis etc no ball throwing - she has the bones of an older dog and what he saw was bone thinning and radiologist confirmed it and due to patellas -- he said if just a sprain then we have to keep her less active 

maybe this was a blessing in disguise and just a sprain as if we kept doing frisbee she could have got really hurt so may have saved us not sure but this way stinks


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Missy had ACL surgeries on both legs ( not the same time) however her patellas were OK so surgery, though still 'major' ,wasn't as intensive approach as would be if the joint were involved. I was told they were 'torn ACLs" both times. Honestly Missy was had such tenacity that she really didn't 'complain' at all. Just had the 'gimp' with one but the other she'd continually hol up and not use at all.

Her recovery went amazingly well!! ... but again likely because it was 'only' the ligaments.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Dr. Jaimie did a wonderful explanation of luxating patellas here:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41536

I know how you feel. From age five to seven, Lady's genetic time bombs started going off and every time I took her to the vet she was diagnosed with something new. :crying:


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## Dixie's Mama (Mar 19, 2008)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 12:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733484


> Thanks -- just got off phone with vet and he spoke to radiologist and dd has grade 4 luxating patella in both back legs which she has managed well but out all the time he said which is odd as never does it pop out or does she scream out or anything. He said radiologist confirmed his findings and hoping it is a sprain and will know in a week if she is not doing better then he would be happy to have me get a second opinion and he will give me recommendations but he said he does a ton of surgeries and he said acl is not a big deal but luxating patella is bad so he said no need to do anything now but if he puts her out and she does have acl straight to surgery and dental at same time but I told him not until i get a second opinion first and he said that was fine with him and he was very nice about it. I told him how i was feeling and he was very kind and i said i am very informed dog owner and he said he wished more people were like that and he welcomes that
> 
> I new it every time i take her in they find something more wrong with her  now grade 4 luxating patella - what a total nightmare
> 
> ...


God love you Deb. Poor Dee Dee. I'm glad the vet was ok with second opinion & great about your knowledge. Maybe this is "the one"??? I'm so sorry Dee Dee and you have to go through this. Keep on plugging away Deb. Keep us updated on Dee Dee. :grouphug:


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

thanks he said patella surgery is much worse than just acl surgery and he said it would have to be really bad before he would ever recommend that one  so he did not think dd was at that point but the acl could be an issue if she does not heal up soon but he said he really thinks it is a bad sprain but he cannot rule out the acl and looking at xrays she has issues with the patellas but has done wonderful hiding it and compensating for it 

she does stand like a bull dog sometimes where her front two legs stick out like a little tuffy dog and he said that is her compensating for her back legs 


QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Feb 24 2009, 01:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733503


> Missy had ACL surgeries on both legs ( not the same time) however her patellas were OK so surgery, though still 'major' ,wasn't as intensive approach as would be if the joint were involved. I was told they were 'torn ACLs" both times. Honestly Missy was had such tenacity that she really didn't 'complain' at all. Just had the 'gimp' with one but the other she'd continually hol up and not use at all.
> 
> Her recovery went amazingly well!! ... but again likely because it was 'only' the ligaments.[/B]


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I think a Grade 4 always needs surgery. I'm glad you are getting a second opinion.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok in reading that i would say a 1 as she has never had it pop out ever and never has she ever been lame until now when falling off stairs wrong 


QUOTE (LadysMom @ Feb 24 2009, 01:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733505


> Dr. Jaimie did a wonderful explanation of luxating patellas here:
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41536
> 
> I know how you feel. From age five to seven, Lady's genetic time bombs started going off and every time I took her to the vet she was diagnosed with something new. :crying:[/B]


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

deb - california animal hospital has an mri machine, they are on sepulveda and near santa monica blvd. i did not use them for surgery though. i went to asecvets.com and had raviv balfour perform the lp surgery on shiva. i cannot say enough wonderful things about raviv and asec. in fact, when shiva collapsed, the only hospital i would take her to was asec. her neurologist was at california animal hospital, though, so thats how i am familiar with them. her neurologist was also wonderful.
hugs,
tami

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 08:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733416


> ok well since she was totally calm when he did things to leg then most likely not i hope
> 
> first time i took dd to him as feeling him out and he was the only one with a digital xray machine and wanted that used instead of regular xray as it picks up on fractures better and i wanted cd to take to specialist if i needed further testing and have that now. I am going to have him email it to me to email orthopedic today
> 
> ...





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 10:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733409





> they said they have to sedate to be able to do the drawer test to see if the two bones are loose but i would think he could have told yesterday as he moved and manipulated leg and felt everything -- his gut is it is not but not 100% sure so trying to gather as much info as i can before thursday
> 
> she is now itching her self on the face with that leg so would think she could not do that if hurt. she is itching side with it too - still no acting out of pain other than not putting full weight bearing on it  she is hopping around with it so a little pressure on it[/B]



Oh gosh, :grouphug:

That's how Kara's doc determined it to be ACL tare, by manipulating...which did cause her to cry out, during one of his movements .

If I can gather any information I send your way. If you trusted your vet before today....I'm sure he's the same great guy...he was before...but I really understand, when that awful doubting creeps in.

Hang in there... :grouphug:
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## lillykins (Oct 15, 2007)

When Charlotte had her ACL surgery (which was actually TPLO), the surgeon also corrected the luxating patella issue... so Charlotte's femur (thigh bone) and tibia (shin bone) were both greatly tampered with in a single surgery.

TPLO = Tibial Plateau Leveling Osteotomy link: http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/tplo.htm


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Yes Alex had a torn cruciate ligament. He never complained. But kept walking on 3 feet. He also had luxating patellas and if you ask me this could be the reason he has torn his cruciate ligament. He is a jumper and a baby gate climber. His patellas never popped out. The vet diagnosed him with manipulation (no sedation needed) and x-rays. When he had the surgery, they repaired the patella at the same time and we took advantage of the anesthesia to also do a dental. The surgery is mostly recommended to avoid arthritis problems in the future. I don't want to alarm you, but most of the time, one year later you have to do the other leg. I read about this and was told this and it happened. One year later he had surgery on his other leg. Today you would never know he had his legs done. He runs and jumps like nothing happened. Tho lately with all the stairs and ramps we put up he is using them more. And he is getting old. He will be 12 end of May. At my age I don't jump anymore either.


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## nikkivong (Aug 25, 2006)

yes, he did not want anyone to touch that leg... however, they did do the drawer test without sedating him... it must have hurt him so much! when will the docs be able to tell if its an acl tear or not? 

QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 08:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733434


> did he flinch when they manipultated leg as she did not flinch one bit the whole time - he said he needed to sedate to do the drawer test  but he did manipulate the leg alot
> 
> the first day and each day she ran to door and moved around and never cried when holding her or anything but would not put pressure on leg and it happened at 9am on sunday and still not walking on it much today  she is kind of hopping off of it a little though and she is itching herself with the leg on face and on side so is that a good sign
> 
> ...





> otis just had the surgery. when he tore his acl, he was out for almost a whole day, refused to move and used it very lightly for the next few days. the vet did the drawer test on otis and it confirmed that he had an acl tear. it is not about 2 months since his surgery and he's doing much better. he DEF uses his leg a lot more but he still prefers the good leg. We started with light walks and will continue to build on those walks.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

thanks for sharing as she lets us massage and touch leg with no flinching at all - she is putting a little more pressure tonight - i could kill dh as she was sitting on his lap and i came through door and she flew off ottoman tonight with no crying nothing as we removed the stairs to try to keep her down but she is still acting a little better so still praying a bad sprain 


QUOTE (nikkivong @ Feb 24 2009, 08:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733717


> yes, he did not want anyone to touch that leg... however, they did do the drawer test without sedating him... it must have hurt him so much! when will the docs be able to tell if its an acl tear or not?
> 
> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 08:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733434





> did he flinch when they manipultated leg as she did not flinch one bit the whole time - he said he needed to sedate to do the drawer test  but he did manipulate the leg alot
> 
> the first day and each day she ran to door and moved around and never cried when holding her or anything but would not put pressure on leg and it happened at 9am on sunday and still not walking on it much today  she is kind of hopping off of it a little though and she is itching herself with the leg on face and on side so is that a good sign
> 
> ...





> otis just had the surgery. when he tore his acl, he was out for almost a whole day, refused to move and used it very lightly for the next few days. the vet did the drawer test on otis and it confirmed that he had an acl tear. it is not about 2 months since his surgery and he's doing much better. he DEF uses his leg a lot more but he still prefers the good leg. We started with light walks and will continue to build on those walks.[/B]


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## nikkivong (Aug 25, 2006)

i hope its nothing more than a sprain too....


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

he moved her leg and felt around and he says hopefully just a bad sprain as he cannot really get in and move it around real good unless sedated but he did feel around and was not 100% sure it was or was not but he said if not better in a week then he needs to do that 

was thinking of having the board certified dentist who is next door to an orthapedic at the city of hope in los angeles have the orthapedic do drawer test when she is under for dental and look at her digital xrays so i can get two things done at once and not be pressured for surgery right away -- I emailed dentist to ask about this tonight so will see what he says. He was in charge of small animal medicine at UCDAVIS so he may even know how to do it but would prefer the orthapedic gave me a second opinion


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

thanks how did they do mri did that show the ligament damage? was it an orthapedic doc that did it? Did they sedate her for mri ? Good to know as that is closer than tustin 


QUOTE (tamizami @ Feb 24 2009, 04:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733586


> deb - california animal hospital has an mri machine, they are on sepulveda and near santa monica blvd. i did not use them for surgery though. i went to asecvets.com and had raviv balfour perform the lp surgery on shiva. i cannot say enough wonderful things about raviv and asec. in fact, when shiva collapsed, the only hospital i would take her to was asec. her neurologist was at california animal hospital, though, so thats how i am familiar with them. her neurologist was also wonderful.
> hugs,
> tami
> 
> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 08:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733416





> ok well since she was totally calm when he did things to leg then most likely not i hope
> 
> first time i took dd to him as feeling him out and he was the only one with a digital xray machine and wanted that used instead of regular xray as it picks up on fractures better and i wanted cd to take to specialist if i needed further testing and have that now. I am going to have him email it to me to email orthopedic today
> 
> ...





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Feb 24 2009, 10:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733409





> they said they have to sedate to be able to do the drawer test to see if the two bones are loose but i would think he could have told yesterday as he moved and manipulated leg and felt everything -- his gut is it is not but not 100% sure so trying to gather as much info as i can before thursday
> 
> she is now itching her self on the face with that leg so would think she could not do that if hurt. she is itching side with it too - still no acting out of pain other than not putting full weight bearing on it  she is hopping around with it so a little pressure on it[/B]



Oh gosh, :grouphug:

That's how Kara's doc determined it to be ACL tare, by manipulating...which did cause her to cry out, during one of his movements .

If I can gather any information I send your way. If you trusted your vet before today....I'm sure he's the same great guy...he was before...but I really understand, when that awful doubting creeps in.

Hang in there... :grouphug:
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Well i am really mad now as dd just woke us up at 3:40 am and vomitted again - she never vomits and now since metacam she vommited at 5am yesterday and 3:40 this morning and exactly why this liver compromised dog should never have had this drug and i requested the tramadol so right now I am furious as i knew this was not going to be a good outcome. 

My mom said do not take her in and let her rest as they will just give her a med and something else will go wrong with her and that is exactly what happened so right now I am very upset at myself for not being stronger and refusing the metacam like i knew would not be good. She is on prednisolone in the temaril p which acts as an anti-inflammatory and he said the only reason he gave her the metacam was not for pain but for anti-inflammatory - and you should not put dogs on nsaids that are on steroids and she has been on temarilp for a year now and her blood work was perfect - she had had the temaril p the day before so he felt it fine -- I just have such a hard time trusting and this is the reason why because i know my dogs and what is safe for them yet I get pressured into what they want to do and now i am upset with him and myself. 

Hopefully this drug will be out of her body within the 72 hrs and i am so glad i never gave it to her again. This dog has a lot going on mvd, hypothyroid, and atopic dermatitis it is obvious her system is jacked up so what if her blood work was perfect one time due to us getting her balanced now jean said introducing that drug killed her system as this is a very strong drug -- he should have just gave me the darn tramadol like i asked as that is for pain and she could have taken her temaril p with it so now i have a dog in pain, vomitting and itching herself crazy with her bad leg -- isn't that wonderful


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I am so sorry DeeDee is so miserable. I can't believe your vet prescribed Metcam to a dog with so many health issues. Tramadol is the only thing Lady can safely take for pain.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

yes i am so pissed off  she vomitted again at 4:45 too  i am so frustrated 


QUOTE (LadysMom @ Feb 25 2009, 10:03 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733997


> I am so sorry DeeDee is so miserable. I can't believe your vet prescribed Metcam to a dog with so many health issues. Tramadol is the only thing Lady can safely take for pain.[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

does the dog act real stiff in morning or after sleeping and resting for a while seem stiff when starting to walk and then it works out a little bit over time with this injury?


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

With Missy and her first right leg injury( which was the lesser of the two) she'd be a bit 'stiff' and would do a bit of 'hip-hop' for her first several steps, then she'd go to looking pretty normal. This would happen even after a nap, or siting on a chair with one of us and we put her down.

With the second more severe injury on the left leg, her gait was definately 'different' ...but of course she was having to use the right leg that was already 'stressed'. Remember, her first leg was when she was younger and that vet at the time didn't feel she'd need surgery right away! .... so she was compensating on the left and hurt it worse than the first and ended with 2 bad legs. Second , more severe injury was fixed first... then the original-injured leg was done. Thankfully both surgeries went great!


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi came late to this board but here is my 2cents...Keno is now 3 1/2 weeks post surgery for an ACL tear. He had subluxating patellas when he was born but never had a problem until recently. As he loves to play fetch, he tore his right ACL just fetching a ball. He limped back on 3 legs. No crying, no wimpering and seemed as feisty as ever.
After a week of anti-inflammatory meds that my vet gave me for initailly what was thought to be a sprain, I noticed that he was losing muscle mass in the rigth hind leg. Went to the vet after a week for a follow up and she was concerned that it was definitely more than just a sprain of his patellas popping in and out. Referred me to orthopedic vet who confirmed the ACL tear just by manipulation (also helped b/c he also has small dogs himself).
Keno had not TPLO but extracapsular technique. The first 2 weeks were a bit hairy but now he is getting PT and 20 minute walks and I have noticed that he's becoming braver on the leg. The vet was also able to fix his patella on the same leg during surgery. I've also noticed that his atrophy of the leg has lessened and I see the muscle starting to get stronger.
Good luck


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I called the orthapedic doc next door to dentist and he is soooooo nice -- his wife is the internal medicine specialist so both very sharp - he said he would have never prescribed metacam for dd with her health issues  only tramadol for her period -- he also said he would never operate on a dog for leg with dental going on as dental there is a lot of bacteria in the air and that was crazy to suggest that  He told me he would do the drawer test on her when under for dental which is just moving the joint in knee to see if bones are loose if they are she ruptured or tore it if not just soft tissue injury. He said he has never seen a 3 or 4 patella not be clinical meaning the dog goes lame but not to say it is not possible but he doubts dd is - he said from everything i am saying it is a strain but cannot rule out acl tear or rupture completely but doubts it as she is so small and he said very rare for a small dog to rupture or tear and more common in bigger dogs. He said he does not like to do patella surgery on any dog or acl surgery on any small breed dog unless the dog is clinical meaning not walking as not necessary due to low weight and to medical manage it if you can. 



He said no ace bandage as can cause sores and can aggravate injury and only uses tape after surgery so not necessary. He was so caring and said he is so sorry for the week i have had and he would be happy to review dee dee xrays and walk next door while doing dental for drawer test. 



He seemed on the same page as me with meds etc and i liked that so i should have drove 50 min to see him on monday and kicking myself  as dee dee would have never gotten the metacam then  He said to have bun and creatinine done before dental to make sure kidney is ok after metacam dose before anesthesia at the dentist facility as they have a lab on site. 


He said it is great i got the digital xrays and the 3 views. 


He said on the metacam did dd have blood in stool and coffee grinds looking stuff in vomit and i said no and he said then you should be ok. 

I really felt comfortable that he is not just quick to do something unnecessary like this vet was as he scared me wanting to do dental, drawer test then surgery at same time as dental next week -- i was like whoa killer slow down i need to do my homework and i said is it urgent to do right away and vet did say no so then what is the rush then i was thinking  

The more i learn the more i am glad i do my homework - scarey what goes on out there so i encourage pet owners do your homework before putting your dog through a bunch of unnecessary things and stresses- my dh says all the time make reverseable decisions quickly and irreverseable ones slowly.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks they did tell me if just a sprain dee dee's frisbee career is over due to her patella and her injury and bone thinning -- she is going to be very upset  she was looking for her frisbee last night as we hid them all and made me cry 


QUOTE (kenonj @ Feb 26 2009, 10:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=734569


> Hi came late to this board but here is my 2cents...Keno is now 3 1/2 weeks post surgery for an ACL tear. He had subluxating patellas when he was born but never had a problem until recently. As he loves to play fetch, he tore his right ACL just fetching a ball. He limped back on 3 legs. No crying, no wimpering and seemed as feisty as ever.
> After a week of anti-inflammatory meds that my vet gave me for initailly what was thought to be a sprain, I noticed that he was losing muscle mass in the rigth hind leg. Went to the vet after a week for a follow up and she was concerned that it was definitely more than just a sprain of his patellas popping in and out. Referred me to orthopedic vet who confirmed the ACL tear just by manipulation (also helped b/c he also has small dogs himself).
> Keno had not TPLO but extracapsular technique. The first 2 weeks were a bit hairy but now he is getting PT and 20 minute walks and I have noticed that he's becoming braver on the leg. The vet was also able to fix his patella on the same leg during surgery. I've also noticed that his atrophy of the leg has lessened and I see the muscle starting to get stronger.
> Good luck[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

dang that sounds so familiar  she does a little hopping and is stiff when she first gets up  this is just breaking my heart 


QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Feb 26 2009, 10:10 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=734566


> With Missy and her first right leg injury( which was the lesser of the two) she'd be a bit 'stiff' and would do a bit of 'hip-hop' for her first several steps, then she'd go to looking pretty normal. This would happen even after a nap, or siting on a chair with one of us and we put her down.
> 
> With the second more severe injury on the left leg, her gait was definately 'different' ...but of course she was having to use the right leg that was already 'stressed'. Remember, her first leg was when she was younger and that vet at the time didn't feel she'd need surgery right away! .... so she was compensating on the left and hurt it worse than the first and ended with 2 bad legs. Second , more severe injury was fixed first... then the original-injured leg was done. Thankfully both surgeries went great![/B]


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

QUOTE


> He said he has never seen a 3 or 4 patella not be clinical meaning the dog goes lame but not to say it is not possible but he doubts dd is - he said from everything i am saying it is a strain but cannot rule out acl tear or rupture completely but doubts it as she is so small and he said very rare for a small dog to rupture or tear and more common in bigger dogs. He said he does not like to do patella surgery on any dog or acl surgery on any small breed dog unless the dog is clinical meaning not walking as not necessary due to low weight and to medical manage it if you can.[/B]


Sorry to say but I would be wary to use this orthopedist for surgery especially on a small dog. Being nice does not mean he is good. For this kind of surgery you want somebody who has done a lot of them and not only on big dogs. The outcome depends on the skill of the surgeon. And being rare for a small dog, I don't know, but just reading on this particular forum alone, a bunch of dogs have patellas problems and had surgeries. So I would not consider this by the numbers we see here to be rare.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

He seemed very thorough and i will definitely have 3 opinions -- I believe in 3 comparisons on everything 

QUOTE (MalteseJane @ Feb 26 2009, 06:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=734839


> QUOTE





> He said he has never seen a 3 or 4 patella not be clinical meaning the dog goes lame but not to say it is not possible but he doubts dd is - he said from everything i am saying it is a strain but cannot rule out acl tear or rupture completely but doubts it as she is so small and he said very rare for a small dog to rupture or tear and more common in bigger dogs. He said he does not like to do patella surgery on any dog or acl surgery on any small breed dog unless the dog is clinical meaning not walking as not necessary due to low weight and to medical manage it if you can.[/B]


Sorry to say but I would be wary to use this orthopedist for surgery especially on a small dog. Being nice does not mean he is good. For this kind of surgery you want somebody who has done a lot of them and not only on big dogs. The outcome depends on the skill of the surgeon. And being rare for a small dog, I don't know, but just reading on this particular forum alone, a bunch of dogs have patellas problems and had surgeries. So I would not consider this by the numbers we see here to be rare.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

she just threw up two more times to night bile -- this metacam has jacked up her stomach big time as she never vomits -- will have to do pepcid ac now -- i cannot believe this vet gave this to her on an empty stomach


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

does it look like this


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## nikkivong (Aug 25, 2006)

oh debbie, io know how heartbreaking it is to see deedee like this.. you keeping hoping that as time goes by they put a little more weight on that foot. I havent been following the posts very well, what is the conclusion wit the leg? is it an acl tear? when are you getting the other consultations?


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Mar 1 2009, 10:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=736560


> does it look like this [/B]


Oh gosh ...I am so sorry. Are you getting a second opinion. . Kara never did that .


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi saw the video you posted... It does look like what my pup went through when he tore his ACL. Like I said, we gave it a week or so with anti-inflammatories before going back to the vet for a recheck. She doesn't seem to uncomfortable, but neither did my little guy. Stoic little one, was he.

Good luck.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

this was her today at times she seems better -- i will load all videos i took today


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Saw the videos... she is definitely favoring it (left hind leg) but apparently is using it alot more than what my little guy did. He was never able to use it without pulling it up and if he had to run a bit, it was on 3 legs only.

Keep an eye on it. Try to keep her from running or jumping for a while. It could be just a sprain but if it doesn't improve within a weeks time, I would have her re evaluated.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks so much -- she looks worse when she gets up from laying down for a while but definite improvement over tuesday 


QUOTE (kenonj @ Mar 1 2009, 05:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=736836


> Saw the videos... she is definitely favoring it (left hind leg) but apparently is using it alot more than what my little guy did. He was never able to use it without pulling it up and if he had to run a bit, it was on 3 legs only.
> 
> Keep an eye on it. Try to keep her from running or jumping for a while. It could be just a sprain but if it doesn't improve within a weeks time, I would have her re evaluated.[/B]


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## Dixie's Mama (Mar 19, 2008)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Mar 1 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=736892


> Thanks so much -- she looks worse when she gets up from laying down for a while but definite improvement over tuesday
> 
> 
> QUOTE (kenonj @ Mar 1 2009, 05:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=736836





> Saw the videos... she is definitely favoring it (left hind leg) but apparently is using it alot more than what my little guy did. He was never able to use it without pulling it up and if he had to run a bit, it was on 3 legs only.
> 
> Keep an eye on it. Try to keep her from running or jumping for a while. It could be just a sprain but if it doesn't improve within a weeks time, I would have her re evaluated.[/B]


[/B][/QUOTE]

Gee, she does seem to be walking better Deb. God she's cute. Give her a big kiss for me please and a hug.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

she relapsed last night so must have gone out on her


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Uh oh. That is exactly how my little guy hopped. I think you may have to have her looked at again.....


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

what is so wierd is yesterday and today walking much better -- did yours go in and out of hopping and walking close to normal? 

Well she did not vomit since yesterdaymorning as i did boiled rice and chicken last night and today but at 5pm she vomitted two biles -- she has never done this and since metacam her stomach is still jacked up. It was since 7 am with meals but i have always fed every 12 hrs but will do 3 meals a day for her now and see if it helps and if not i may have to take her back in to our regular vet  I am so hoping she is not developing an ulcer from that med


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Yeah he did, but then it got to the point where I thought he was really using it but then when I gave him a bath I noticed that the leg felt kinda "limp", not using it much, the tone and strength were low. Thats when I was really concerned and went back to the vet. She felt too that after a week of keeping him from doing anything (running, climbing stairs etc) and anti-inflammatories, that I should be referred to the orthopedic vet specialists.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

well Tami on here referred me to ASEC where there are board certified surgeons so i went on website and our friend is the radiologist there and completely forgot she worked there and she is a graduate of The Ohio State University and has been doing it for years so she gave me the name of two orthapedist she completely trusted. She also told me steroid use is proven to weeken ligaments, joints, etc and bone thin  she said no way was dd grade 4 LP with what i was describing and she said that vet should have never given her metacam when she was on steroids for a year and that was negligent and never to have been given on empty stomach  she said dd probably has a little ulcer from meds and if vomitting persists do the sulcrulfate -- she said she sees a ton of dogs that come to their facility where metacam is administered improperly and the dogs end up with ulcers  Luckily no blood in stool or vomit and no tarry stool and she said keep an eye on her. We are doing boiled organic chicken and boiled brown organic rice and 3-4 small meals a day and pepcid ac 2xs a day 30 min prior to food -- she said not to wait too long to see orthapedic as you run the risk of arthritis building up in the joint  She said it can be medically managed in small dogs but what happened to her sisters beagel was she medically managed and then blew out the other acl  I am so hoping soft tissue but as the days go on and she still favors it I get concerned  I feel better knowing she is there and she said she will look at her xrays for me as well and give her opinion. 



QUOTE (kenonj @ Mar 5 2009, 11:17 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=739488


> Yeah he did, but then it got to the point where I thought he was really using it but then when I gave him a bath I noticed that the leg felt kinda "limp", not using it much, the tone and strength were low. Thats when I was really concerned and went back to the vet. She felt too that after a week of keeping him from doing anything (running, climbing stairs etc) and anti-inflammatories, that I should be referred to the orthopedic vet specialists.[/B]


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Deb, I'm so sorry that Dee Dee is still having troubles with her tummy and her leg. It could be her knee popping out that is causing her to skip a little or relapse. I think getting her in to the surgeon is the best idea. You are so lucky to have a friend at ASEC, they are definitely the best in the area.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

http://www.asecvets.com/pdf/dimsurg/DimSurg1001.pdf

here is some info about the procedure for acl ruptures 

below is our friend -- she is very sharp 

http://www.asecvets.com/radiology.htm


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## 5maltsmom (Aug 12, 2007)

My Klondike went lame in his back leg yesterday. I'm wondering if he slipped in the snow and tore something. He wouldn't put any weight on it yesterday and is putting a little more on it today, but then started favoring it again after running around a little bit. I couldn't get him into the vet until tomorrow, so we'll see what they have to say. I hope your little one is doing better.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

thanks i hope your baby is ok too -- if you can make sure you can get digital xrays so they can put on a cd for you in case you have to go to orthapedic -- personally after what i experienced with this vet i wish i would have just gone to orthapedic to begin with  at least i would have more answers and they would have not gave metacam as all have said they would have given her tramadol since on steroids so i feel i failed her by not seeing specialist as i normally do  

It has been since a week ago monday she has not been walking 100% and we take one step forward and two steps back in recovery  we keep her pretty well rested as much as we can-- I am still praying for soft tissue sprain injury and not acl 


QUOTE (5maltsmom @ Mar 5 2009, 09:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=739836


> My Klondike went lame in his back leg yesterday. I'm wondering if he slipped in the snow and tore something. He wouldn't put any weight on it yesterday and is putting a little more on it today, but then started favoring it again after running around a little bit. I couldn't get him into the vet until tomorrow, so we'll see what they have to say. I hope your little one is doing better.[/B]


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

That last video clip is how Missy was when she tore her ACL. Getting it done in a timely manner is a good idea because she now is putting a lot of stress on her right leg which could cause problems there. ( Missy's first problem was he right leg but vet at the time felt she could get away without surgery and it did seep she was doing well then BLEW the left leg and worse than the first. The new vet felt it was do to her 'favoring' her right leg and so stressed the left.

It is soooo beyond me how they didn't know to NOT prescribe the metacam with the steroid.... from what I've read it is 'elementary' knowledge.... PLUS it is a 'given' that NSAIDS never on an empty stomach. When I was corresponding with the vet at the head of the Urology/Surgical dept at NCU , discussing Missy and the Piroxicam , she stated they STRESS to their vet students that proper advice to owners is to give NSAID MID-MEAL! That even giving with a bit of food to administer the med was not enough and unless the vet stresses this , many owners assume that wrapping in a bit of cheese for example was enough. Missy was getting the Piroxicam for her bladder cancer, so discussion was focused on that.... but she said even when the Piroxicam was doing a good job for the cancer, the findings were the dogs got major gastro-intestional problems that caused as bad a problem as the cancer because the administration was not done properly. She followed Missy's case and asked if I would mind sending her a photo and could she use her as "case-example' for her students, feeling that them seeing a real dog case and what doing it properly can make a big difference. ( It was almost unheard of to have a dog be on such long term NSAID without gastro side affects....but again she felt it was because the vets "out-there" simply weren't stressing the need for administering mid meal.
Being diabetic Missy also needed a food snack a few hours after her insulin and meal... this may also have helped a lot as well .

I had so hoped the vomiting would have stopped by now. I'm wondering if a few mini-meals or even a small snack of the chicken/rice every few hours would help?.... like just a tablespoon? between her meals? poor little girl, I feel so bad for her.... and you! 

I think I'd have to print out every finding I had about giving metacam with steroid and empty stomach and push it into those vets noses!

As to the leg... have you tried massage? it helps the circulation to the muscle... or thought of accupuncture? to see if that would help? if indeed it is only soft tissue 'damage".


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks for all your help and we will never go back to this vet ever  She did not vomit yesterday and we gave her 4 meals of chicken and rice. I am also doing pepcid ac 30 min for food -- I will do for 5 days then slowly introduce her kibble if she vomits back to just chicken and rice 

I was thinking about acupuncture or massage for her -- wanted to get her little tummy under control first before anything else -- I am so bummed right now and cannot believe with all her health issues she has a bum leg -- just is not fair for her at all 




QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Mar 6 2009, 07:07 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=740019


> That last video clip is how Missy was when she tore her ACL. Getting it done in a timely manner is a good idea because she now is putting a lot of stress on her right leg which could cause problems there. ( Missy's first problem was he right leg but vet at the time felt she could get away without surgery and it did seep she was doing well then BLEW the left leg and worse than the first. The new vet felt it was do to her 'favoring' her right leg and so stressed the left.
> 
> It is soooo beyond me how they didn't know to NOT prescribe the metacam with the steroid.... from what I've read it is 'elementary' knowledge.... PLUS it is a 'given' that NSAIDS never on an empty stomach. When I was corresponding with the vet at the head of the Urology/Surgical dept at NCU , discussing Missy and the Piroxicam , she stated they STRESS to their vet students that proper advice to owners is to give NSAID MID-MEAL! That even giving with a bit of food to administer the med was not enough and unless the vet stresses this , many owners assume that wrapping in a bit of cheese for example was enough. Missy was getting the Piroxicam for her bladder cancer, so discussion was focused on that.... but she said even when the Piroxicam was doing a good job for the cancer, the findings were the dogs got major gastro-intestional problems that caused as bad a problem as the cancer because the administration was not done properly. She followed Missy's case and asked if I would mind sending her a photo and could she use her as "case-example' for her students, feeling that them seeing a real dog case and what doing it properly can make a big difference. ( It was almost unheard of to have a dog be on such long term NSAID without gastro side affects....but again she felt it was because the vets "out-there" simply weren't stressing the need for administering mid meal.
> Being diabetic Missy also needed a food snack a few hours after her insulin and meal... this may also have helped a lot as well .
> ...


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Gee sorry took so long to get back to this thread. I'm glad you are finally seeing the specialists about the knee. A friend of mine who uses homeopathic "meds" has me giving my little one arnicor montana 30C pills (2 pills twice a day) as he recuperates from his ACL surgery (he's about 4 weeks post op). It's used for swelling and bruising and has some good literature for helping arthritic dogs. I really felt that is decreased the amount of swelling post operatively on his knee.
Now he's putting weight on his leg and starting to walk on it more. :biggrin: Hope everything works out for you.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks is it Arnica as I have heard this is natural and is a great pain and anti-inflammatory and all natural. What surgery did they do on acl - was it the one i posted link to where they did sutures on both sides of leg to keep knee in place? I joined orthopedic dog groups on yahoo and learning more - just so bummed as she is not 100% yet and every day that passes i get nervous  When did you see orthapedic was it right away ? I wanted to give it more time but we are at 2 weeks on sunday from injury date 


QUOTE (kenonj @ Mar 6 2009, 08:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=740404


> Gee sorry took so long to get back to this thread. I'm glad you are finally seeing the specialists about the knee. A friend of mine who uses homeopathic "meds" has me giving my little one arnicor montana 30C pills (2 pills twice a day) as he recuperates from his ACL surgery (he's about 4 weeks post op). It's used for swelling and bruising and has some good literature for helping arthritic dogs. I really felt that is decreased the amount of swelling post operatively on his knee.
> Now he's putting weight on his leg and starting to walk on it more. :biggrin: Hope everything works out for you.[/B]


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Oops, me bad, sorry it was late last night...yes Arnica Montana 30C strength. The surgery Keno had was the extracapsular knee surgery. Since he was a small dog, the vet surgeon thought it was the best surgical procedure for him. I kinda knew he was going to need surgery so after the x rays and evaluation, they took him the same day. Also I think b/c he had so much atrophy of the muscle there that they thought if they didn't do surgery right away, he will become completely lame in that leg since he does so well on just 3 legs! I have to find the website that I saw that gave me so much information regarding the surgical techniques used and will get back to you.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

thanks so much that would be great if you could find the website 


QUOTE (kenonj @ Mar 7 2009, 10:07 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=740674


> Oops, me bad, sorry it was late last night...yes Arnica Montana 30C strength. The surgery Keno had was the extracapsular knee surgery. Since he was a small dog, the vet surgeon thought it was the best surgical procedure for him. I kinda knew he was going to need surgery so after the x rays and evaluation, they took him the same day. Also I think b/c he had so much atrophy of the muscle there that they thought if they didn't do surgery right away, he will become completely lame in that leg since he does so well on just 3 legs! I have to find the website that I saw that gave me so much information regarding the surgical techniques used and will get back to you.[/B]


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok found the website that really helped me understand the surgical techniques:
For the surgery that my guy had was termed the extracapsular technique or Lateral Fabellar suture technique.

http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/cruciatelrt.htm

http://www.michvet.com/library/surgery_cru...tracapsular.asp

Both were very helpful in describing the surgery as well as the post op care and considerations made to decide to do that type of surgery versus the TPLO.

How is she doing by the way?


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## kenonj (Feb 1, 2009)

> Thanks is it Arnica as I have heard this is natural and is a great pain and anti-inflammatory and all natural. What surgery did they do on acl - was it the one i posted link to where they did sutures on both sides of leg to keep knee in place? I joined orthopedic dog groups on yahoo and learning more - just so bummed as she is not 100% yet and every day that passes i get nervous  When did you see orthapedic was it right away ? I wanted to give it more time but we are at 2 weeks on sunday from injury date
> 
> It was about 2 weeks from his original injury date: Hurt himself, went on anti-inflammatories for 1 week, didn't get better, went back to vet who referred me to ortho vet and had an appointment 1 week later and had surgery that same day. So all in all it was a total of 2 weeks of symptoms (not bearing weight on leg) before surgery.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

QUOTE (kenonj @ Mar 6 2009, 05:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=740404


> Gee sorry took so long to get back to this thread. I'm glad you are finally seeing the specialists about the knee. A friend of mine who uses homeopathic "meds" has me giving my little one arnicor montana 30C pills (2 pills twice a day) as he recuperates from his ACL surgery (he's about 4 weeks post op). It's used for swelling and bruising and has some good literature for helping arthritic dogs. I really felt that is decreased the amount of swelling post operatively on his knee.
> Now he's putting weight on his leg and starting to walk on it more. :biggrin: Hope everything works out for you.[/B]


it takes about 6 weeks that they are back to normal walking.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Thanks so much as i am on orthodog and not sure what all procedures are so will read this and see if it makes more sense. It will be two weeks tomorrow and she does not hold leg up but not 100% weight bearing either  each day that goes by i get sadder and sadder -- vomiting stopped thurs, fri and sat with chick and rice but today she had soft stools so gave her probiotics and going to get her pumpkin at whole foods in a few minutes 


QUOTE (kenonj @ Mar 7 2009, 04:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=740861


> Ok found the website that really helped me understand the surgical techniques:
> For the surgery that my guy had was termed the extracapsular technique or Lateral Fabellar suture technique.
> 
> http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/cruciatelrt.htm
> ...


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