# Raw food diet



## joyomom

Anyone feeding a raw food diet to their Maltese?

Thinking of a trying Primal Pet food that is a raw frozen food that is locally produced with organic meat and fruit/veggies.

Does anyone feed raw?

How does your dog do on it? Do you feed one or both meals with it?

Your experiences/opinions appreciated .....


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## vjw

I've copied and pasted one of my replies from another post:



There is no scientific proof of the benefits of feeding raw.

In fact, a March 2001 Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association article cited a study which tested several raw diets and found they had measurable nutrient deficiencies or excesses of some nutrients which could cause serious nutritional and health risks when used long term.

The old "it's what dogs ate in the wild" argument is ludicrous. Todays wild canids who are taken into captivity are typically found to be malnourished and highly parasitic. Many of them have short life expectancies in the wild. 

You put your dog and you at risk for numerous pathogens and parasites with raw.

This is why the American Veterinary Medical Association, the British Veterinary Medical Association, The Canadian Veterinary Association, the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control, and numerous public health agencies ADVOCATE AGAINST FEEDING RAW.

It is my understanding that a couple of Canadian studies which evaluated the risks of raw diets are the reason the Delta Society no longer allows dogs who are fed raw diets to participate in their program. I'm going on memory on this so don't quote me on this one. I'm pretty sure this is in an article that's in the stack of material I have.


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## joyomom

Thank you very much for your reply. 

Using the search feature I tried to find if others had any opinions or experience. I appreciate your thoughts.


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## k9Cracker

Rugby gets fed raw meaty bones diet. You can definitely tell the difference in poop between a raw fed dog and a kibble fed dog (trust me... I poop scoop for a whole pack of dogs where we train). The raw fed dogs poop doesn't stink and its LOTS smaller in comparison to the other dogs. 

The other big thing is the teeth cleaning. The chewing/ripping cleans their teeth, and that is one thing I really love since little dogs have such a problem with their teeth. Rugby's Yorkie friend was kibble fed for 7 years before being adopted by our trainer and her teeth have improved drastically! 

Considering all the pet food recalls, I don't really see how feeding raw is any more dangerous than kibble. 

That said, I have NOT seen an improvement in Rugby's coat, tears, energy, etc from switching to raw from a high-quality kibble. Those things did improve once I switched him from crappy kibble to E.V.O. though. 

The only thing I don't like about it is the inconvenience of having to remember to defrost the food beforehand, etc. 

I don't feed a commercial raw food, just order some stuff online/from local butchers/from the grocery store. I did run across this coupon though the other day if you wanted to try it out...
Try Raw - Free Perfect Trial Size | Nature's Variety
Rugby is 6.5 lbs and we haven't tried it, but their trial size bag should feed him for 3 days!


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## wooflife

I do feed raw. My personal experience with it has been great. I did notice better breath, positive change in personality, healthier skin and better looking fur. As Joy says there is no scientific evidence however there are a lot of people and veterinarians who have noticed positive changes. 

I feed both Primal, and Northwest Naturals to both my dogs and cats. I watch the fat content carefully and add a probiotic that is rich in Lipase as one of my dogs leans towards pancreatitis. My maltese runs high on her ALT so I check that regularly and make sure she is on a good a milk thistle supplement. 

I personally have had nothing but good experiences so far feeding raw food. However every dog is different and must be evaluated as an individual.


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## sophie

Sophie and Annie are both on raw. We had started with Dr. Harvey's premix and then went to Sojo's. I even bought an electric meat grinder and was preparing it all from scratch. Then life got hectic and right now they are on Nature's Variety raw frozen medallions. 

I began seeing an almost immediate change. Sophie's energy level went way up, she's dropped a bit of weight and her water consumption has gone way down (she has Cushings.) Both of them have much smaller and not smelly poops. Annie, who would stop in the middle of her meal to go poop is now pooping on a more regular schedule and no longer has to stop eating to go. Annie, who had dragon breath now has sweet breath. Oh, and Sophie who was always ravenous and begged for food nonstop is satisfied after eating.

I was interested, but hesitant to feed raw until I took the girls to a homeopathic vet well versed in canine nutrition. She spent a good portion of in office time and e-mailing back and forth to make sure I was very comfortable feeding raw. Her first recommendation was like, Rugby's mom feeds, to fee a raw meaty bone diet, but it stressed me out too much that they would choke - she said it was very unlikely, but it really bothered me - I tried though. lol

Linda


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## vjw

Here's a link to an article on WebMD that talks about some of the benefits, concerns, and risks. There's three pages.:

Raw Dog Food Diet: Benefits and Risks


It doesn't make sense to me to feed a food loaded with pathogens and which is probably nutritionally incomplete just to have a dog with a shiney coat or nicer smelling breath. As mentioned in this article, there's other ways to get a shiney coat.


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## Furbaby's Mommie

I feed Nature's Variety Instinct Raw. Shoni has been eating it for about a year. I love the way he googles it up. His chem 27 panel has been perfect, and his stomach/intestinal problems gone. I still give him 1/4 c. of dry also, mostly because I believe in lots of variety.:thumbsup:


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## CrystalAndZoe

I've got all 3 of mine on Addiction Dehydrated Raw and they are doing so well on it. All the pluses that others have mentioned I've seen in all 3 of mine. I do think for the little ones, that you need to find a raw formula that is not too high in protein and has a nice starchy veggie in it like sweet potato. 

As for raw diets being found to have nutrient deficiencies or excesses of some nutrients, so have some well known kibble out there that has been flagged and then the manufacturer needs to make some adjustments. Gotta love the 'family clause' in AAFCO standards that does allow other formulas not to be tested if one formula has been tested and passed. Since I don't know which raw food formulas this reference was made to, I'll just say I do believe then when going with a raw diet, the risk is much less that this sort of thing will happen since the whole reason a company goes this route is to make a better food. I can't help but wonder if what that statement was referring to was those raw foods that are meant as supplemental feeding only. I've seen quite a few of those.

I was really on the fence about raw for years until I went to my new vet. She is a traditional vet who has taken more classes in nutrition, Chinese herbs & acupuncture. She is the one that finally convinced me that raw is a great way to go for dogs & cats that don't have a compromised immune system. Each case should be treated individually though and I always recommend routine check ups and blood work to make sure that all their levels are where they should be.


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## vjw

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I've got all 3 of mine on Addiction Dehydrated Raw and they are doing so well on it. All the pluses that others have mentioned I've seen in all 3 of mine. I do think for the little ones, that you need to find a raw formula that is not too high in protein and has a nice starchy veggie in it like sweet potato.
> 
> As for raw diets being found to have nutrient deficiencies or excesses of some nutrients, so have some well known kibble out there that has been flagged and then the manufacturer needs to make some adjustments. Gotta love the 'family clause' in AAFCO standards that does allow other formulas not to be tested if one formula has been tested and passed. Since I don't know which raw food formulas this reference was made to, I'll just say I do believe then when going with a raw diet, the risk is much less that this sort of thing will happen since the whole reason a company goes this route is to make a better food. I can't help but wonder if what that statement was referring to was those raw foods that are meant as supplemental feeding only. I've seen quite a few of those.
> 
> I was really on the fence about raw for years until I went to my new vet. She is a traditional vet who has taken more classes in nutrition, Chinese herbs & acupuncture. She is the one that finally convinced me that raw is a great way to go for dogs & cats that don't have a compromised immune system. Each case should be treated individually though and I always recommend routine check ups and blood work to make sure that all their levels are where they should be.


 
Where is this "family clause"? The reason I'd like to see it is that there are so many lies on the internet about the AAFCO that just aren't true. Their "family" is larger than what a lot of alternative veterinary medicine persons would like us to believe:

http://www.aafco.org/Directory/MembershipDirectory/tabid/62/Default.aspx


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## CrystalAndZoe

vjw said:


> Where is this "family clause"? The reason I'd like to see it is that there are so many lies on the internet about the AAFCO that just aren't true. Their "family" is larger than what a lot of alternative veterinary medicine persons would like us to believe:
> 
> Membership Directory



Since you actually have to become a member to view certain things from the AAFCO site, and I don't have the hours to spend searching through what I can see and also related government links, I can not show you their guidelines in how you can achieve AAFCO approval from the actual AAFCO site. I do know of several articles that have talked about it, one being the Whole Dog Journal. I'll have to look the article up but it was just several months ago. Of course, I have a feeling you don't think the WDJ to be a good resource. So I'll be happy to contact some of my dog food companies this next week and find out for sure from them. Just had some sales reps in from Evangers the other week and sure wish I had been challenged then. I could have gotten your answer much more quickly. But I do know there are several great brands of kibble out there that have been recently flagged. I won't say which ones because I do think they are good brands and sometimes things can just go off from batch to batch and they have the right to correct any honest mistakes. If it continues, they will lose their AAFCO status.

I do have resources where to get info other then just searching the internet and checking wikipedia. :thumbsup:


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## vjw

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I do have resources where to get info other then just searching the internet and checking wikipedia. :thumbsup:


So do I. That's why I'm asking you for info. Please be sure your "sources" are credible. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## CrystalAndZoe

vjw said:


> So do I. That's why I'm asking you for info. Please be sure your "sources" are credible. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I'm curious. What are your sources?


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## k9Cracker

As far as being nutritionally balanced, I visited a holistic vet a few times when I had just switched. He kept telling me the idea is "balance over time" and as long as I feed a wide variety of foods (with the appropriate percentage of organ/meats/bone) that it really isn't that big a deal. I spend MUCH more time on Rugby's diet than I do my own and I think I doing just fine! 


vjw - I don't really think it matters that much. There are some really good kibbles out there. If the whole raw thing doesn't make sense to you, then feed what you are comfortable with!


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## CrystalAndZoe

My apologies to the OP as this thread has gone off track. I believe this thread was addressed to _*those who feed raw*_ and _*their*_ experiences and opinions on it. I've shared my personal experiences and will refrain posting more on this thread unless the OP asks me a question personally. :back2topic:


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## educ8m

I feed my six month old puppy, Gracie, Primal raw and alternate between rabbit, beef, and lamb. I chose this after considerable research and under the clear preference of my holistic vet for feeding raw. I only add salmon oil (with no preservatives). I have home cooked for my 14 year old dog for his entire life and he has started gobbling down anything Gracie leaves in her dish, so I am thinking of gradually switching him over to the raw also. It's so much more convenient to just thaw the raw and know that Gracie is getting a balanced diet. With the home cooking I have to add so many supplements, and it is much more time consuming to prepare the food. 
I will tell you that Gracie's poop has no odor and is very small and compact. I do heat the raw food in the microwave for about 10 seconds. . just enough to warm it to room temperature.


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## puppy lover

Here is a recent thread that may be helpful. 
I found the video Wooflife posted to be really informative. I think it was page 4.
I've been feeding Stella and Chewy's dehydrated and Olivea has done well on it. I don't believe dehydrated is a truly raw diet though. I would feed some of the better frozen raw foods (Paw Naturaw, etc) but she won't eat any of them.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/60-maltese-food-snacks-treats/111157-raw-meat-diets.html

PS educ8m, Yes, I've heard good things about Primal. You may want to ask your vet about the microwaving. I think after only a few seconds in the microwave the food is radiated and chemically altered. But I'm not sure exactly how long it takes.


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## joyomom

Thank you everyone for all the information:aktion033::aktion033:
It is helping guide me to decide what to use. 

The Primal company is locally based in my city, so that may be one of my options. My local pet store gave me a starter pack to try.

Another friend loves Feed This, Inc and another suggested Small Batch Pets out of San Francisco.

Right now I am feeding the Nature's Variety Beef and Barley with canned Instinct beef. 

Just want to give what will be the best for my pups to be healthy and happy.

Thanks everyone - this is why I love SM - you are all so wonderful about sharing information and resources:wub::wub::wub:


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## joyomom

Crystal&Zoe said:


> My apologies to the OP as this thread has gone off track. I believe this thread was addressed to _*those who feed raw*_ and _*their*_ experiences and opinions on it. I've shared my personal experiences and will refrain posting more on this thread unless the OP asks me a question personally. :back2topic:



No apologies needed Crystal. I appreciate your input and all the information everyone is sharing : )

It's great to have such a supportive group like all of you :chili:


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## vjw

educ8m said:


> I feed my six month old puppy, Gracie, Primal raw and alternate between rabbit, beef, and lamb. I chose this after considerable research and under the clear preference of my holistic vet for feeding raw. I only add salmon oil (with no preservatives). I have home cooked for my 14 year old dog for his entire life and he has started gobbling down anything Gracie leaves in her dish, so I am thinking of gradually switching him over to the raw also. It's so much more convenient to just thaw the raw and know that Gracie is getting a balanced diet. With the home cooking I have to add so many supplements, and it is much more time consuming to prepare the food.
> I will tell you that Gracie's poop has no odor and is very small and compact. I do heat the raw food in the microwave for about 10 seconds. . just enough to warm it to room temperature.


I'm VERY surprised that even a holistic vet. would recommend raw for a puppy. Do your research on this. Also it is my understanding that if you are feeding raw that you are most definitely supposed to give a supplement because raw alone isn't nutritionally adequate.


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## vjw

Crystal&Zoe said:


> I'm curious. What are your sources?


 
They're not dog food companies who are trying to get me to sell their dog food or supplements.:thumbsup:


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## MaryH

vjw said:


> I'm VERY surprised that even a holistic vet. would recommend raw for a puppy. Do your research on this. Also it is my understanding that if you are feeding raw that you are most definitely supposed to give a supplement because raw alone isn't nutritionally adequate.


Joy, I believe you are correct that when feeding raw certain supplements should be added to insure a nutritionally balanced diet. Primal is a ready-to-eat raw diet, not one that Deb is preparing from scratch. Deb said she is not adding a supplement and I'm assuming, based on the ingredients contained in the Primal food (see ingredient list below), no *additional *supplements are needed as Primal has already added them. As for feeding a raw diet to puppies, there are many vet nutritionists, both holistic and allopathic (and I know a few personally), who support raw diets for puppies so long as the diet meets the nutritional needs of the puppies. 

Primal Ingredients
Primal Formulas are produced using only the freshest, 100% human-grade ingredients. Our poultry, meat and game are antibiotic and steroid free without added hormones. We incorporate certified organic produce, certified organic minerals and unrefined vitamins to fortify our complete and balanced diets. All Primal Formulas contain fresh ground bone for calcium supplementation. This combination of ingredients offers optimum levels of the amino acids (protein), essential fatty acids, natural-occurring enzymes, and necessary vitamins and minerals that are the building blocks for your pet's healthy biological functions. All of the ingredients found in Primal Formulas are procured from ranches and farms throughout the United States and New Zealand that take pride in producing wholesome raw foods through natural, sustainable agriculture.
Primal Formulas offer you the convenience and benefits of a well-balanced, safe and wholesome raw-food diet without having to grind, chop, measure or mix the ingredients yourself. At Primal Pet Foods, we have taken the time to carefully formulate and produce a nutritious, fresh-food diet that is easy for you to serve and delectable for pets to devour. The proof is watching them lick the bowl clean while thriving happily and healthfully!


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## educ8m

puppy lover said:


> Here is a recent thread that may be helpful.
> I found the video Wooflife posted to be really informative. I think it was page 4.
> I've been feeding Stella and Chewy's dehydrated and Olivea has done well on it. I don't believe dehydrated is a truly raw diet though. I would feed some of the better frozen raw foods (Paw Naturaw, etc) but she won't eat any of them.
> 
> http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/60-maltese-food-snacks-treats/111157-raw-meat-diets.html
> 
> PS educ8m, Yes, I've heard good things about Primal. You may want to ask your vet about the microwaving. I think after only a few seconds in the microwave the food is radiated and chemically altered. But I'm not sure exactly how long it takes.


Thanks. I actually was aware that it would alter it somewhat, but was told that it would not be a significant change in 10 seconds. Just doing this while she is a puppy. Will later put it in a plastic bag and soak it in some warm water to heat it a bit. 



vjw said:


> I'm VERY surprised that even a holistic vet. would recommend raw for a puppy. Do your research on this. Also it is my understanding that if you are feeding raw that you are most definitely supposed to give a supplement because raw alone isn't nutritionally adequate.


vjw: Don't know where you are getting your research, but I trust my vet who is VERY respected in her field. Whole Dog Journal has also only endorsed top-quality products that offer complete and balanced diets. Primal has a full nutrient analysis available for each diet. 

This thread is not meant to be a debate on what people are already feeding their dogs. The OP just wanted to hear from people who WERE feeding raw, which is why I posted. I am not interested in defending what I have carefully chosen to feed, so I, too, will not be responding anymore to this thread unless specifically asked a question by the OP.


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## CrystalAndZoe

vjw said:


> They're not dog food companies who are trying to get me to sell their dog food or supplements.:thumbsup:


Ok I'm sorry but I can't let that one go. That is an out and out insult and personal attack. I don't sell very much food on line at all and the only food I do sell on line are the ones that people have asked me to sell to them. And for a small store like me who can't purchase high quantities, I really don't make any money on food. There are many on this forum who will hopefully see this and let you know that I have taken much time helping them in selecting food & supplements to help their babies and I have always suggested and even helped them locate places near them to purchase the items so they won't have to pay shipping. I get very little business in the way of food or supplements from this forum but I still try to help people because to me, it's about their precious babies.

In another thread where you had become very argumentative, someone asked you what your background was. And you did not respond. And again, instead of answering my question, you have chosen to insult me and accuse me of something so low and so despicable. 

To clarify, asking a dog food company what it must do to get their dog food AAFCO certified is not getting tainted or slanted info. They must all go through the same process. It is going straight to a first hand source. I believe the WDJ to be another excellent source of info and they do not take any advertisements so they can be totally unbiased in their articles and reviews. But you don't seem to think the WDJ to be a qualified source of info either. You prefer to believe traditional veterinary medicine where they have only 2-3 weeks of nutrition in vet school and sell food themselves. I see a traditional vet who has taken more courses in dog nutrition, Chinese herbs and acupuncture. She is NOT a holistic vet. And you still don't feel she is a qualified source of information. Most holistic meds and treatments can be explained by science. But if something can not be explained by science, doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had a relative who lived in Missouri during the Civil War who treated wounded soldiers on both sides. She was well known for her 'moldy bread poultice'. They did not know why it worked, just that it did. They did not know at the time that it was actually penicillin. So most western meds are rooted in holistic medicine.

I have chosen the foods and supplements I sell because I have researched them on my own before contacting the actual company. I also have selected my foods and supplements because they are the ones that have worked on my own dogs and are the ones who I'm consistently getting positive feed back from people that they have or are helping. I also choose products from talking to other boutique owners who have carried certain lines for extended periods of time and what their observations have been in their own dogs and their customers dogs. I chose Animal Essentials because I can call someone there who is not only very knowledgeable, but will tell me what might help in a situation even if they don't make that product themselves. I find that extremely reputable. It tells me that to this person and this company, it is about helping animals. Not about selling only their products. To insinuate that I am blindly choosing food and supplements because of a great sales pitch is more then insulting.


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## k9Cracker

The problem with making your own raw diet, as opposed to a commerical diet is you don't know exactly what is in it, just have an idea. My vet is more concerned with OVER supplementing than under supplementing. 

AND, you can wean puppies straight onto raw food. In fact LOTS of people do it successfully. This is a random image from google, the pups are eating goats milk and ground turkey, per this website.


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## MaryH

I think they key to success in getting to a nutritionally balanced diet, whether raw, cooked, home prepared or commercially prepared, is research. My preference is to gather information from books, talk to my vets, consult with nutritionists, and read information on the internet. And ultimately take a good look at my dogs! Over the years I have fed many different diets to many different dogs and while some did well on one diet others did better on something else. The one consistent result in all dogs was when I was feeding them a raw diet. There was a marked difference in how quickly their coats and nails grew. Coats grew faster and thicker and nails seemed to grow overnight. Because of several factors, prep time being the major one (I was feeding raw before the days of commercially prepared raw), my dogs are now all eating a commercial kibble and they are all healthy. BUT I'm actually thinking that I may try a commercially prepared raw diet like Primal for my show dogs.

Just this weekend I was talking with a friend and fellow SM member and said that I generally don't participate in threads about diet because they become very passionate and I for one don't want to feel like I should have to apologize to anyone for my feeding choices. I think these threads are great, I love reading the good information that is shared, whether I agree with it or not, but so often the good gets buried beneath the personal passions. In the end, if my dog does well on a dry kibble and someone else's on a home cooked diet and yet another on a raw diet I'm really happy that the dogs are happy, healthy and well loved.


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## bellaratamaltese

MaryH said:


> I think they key to success in getting to a nutritionally balanced diet, whether raw, cooked, home prepared or commercially prepared, is research. My preference is to gather information from books, talk to my vets, consult with nutritionists, and read information on the internet. And ultimately take a good look at my dogs! Over the years I have fed many different diets to many different dogs and while some did well on one diet others did better on something else. The one consistent result in all dogs was when I was feeding them a raw diet. There was a marked difference in how quickly their coats and nails grew. Coats grew faster and thicker and nails seemed to grow overnight. Because of several factors, prep time being the major one (I was feeding raw before the days of commercially prepared raw), my dogs are now all eating a commercial kibble and they are all healthy. BUT I'm actually thinking that I may try a commercially prepared raw diet like Primal for my show dogs.
> 
> Just this weekend I was talking with a friend and fellow SM member and said that I generally don't participate in threads about diet because they become very passionate and I for one don't want to feel like I should have to apologize to anyone for my feeding choices. I think these threads are great, I love reading the good information that is shared, whether I agree with it or not, but so often the good gets buried beneath the personal passions. In the end, if my dog does well on a dry kibble and someone else's on a home cooked diet and yet another on a raw diet I'm really happy that the dogs are happy, healthy and well loved.


I typically don't participate in these threads either because it's not an area where I feel comfortable offering advice. I keep my dogs on Prairie because my tear staining is much improved on it, not because of any passionate research or decision. 

Joanne, I look forward to hearing how your dogs do on Primal. I had looked into it at one point, I think, but I don't have easy access to it.


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## vjw

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Ok I'm sorry but I can't let that one go. That is an out and out insult and personal attack. I don't sell very much food on line at all and the only food I do sell on line are the ones that people have asked me to sell to them. And for a small store like me who can't purchase high quantities, I really don't make any money on food. There are many on this forum who will hopefully see this and let you know that I have taken much time helping them in selecting food & supplements to help their babies and I have always suggested and even helped them locate places near them to purchase the items so they won't have to pay shipping. I get very little business in the way of food or supplements from this forum but I still try to help people because to me, it's about their precious babies.
> 
> In another thread where you had become very argumentative, someone asked you what your background was. And you did not respond. And again, instead of answering my question, you have chosen to insult me and accuse me of something so low and so despicable.
> 
> To clarify, asking a dog food company what it must do to get their dog food AAFCO certified is not getting tainted or slanted info. They must all go through the same process. It is going straight to a first hand source. I believe the WDJ to be another excellent source of info and they do not take any advertisements so they can be totally unbiased in their articles and reviews. But you don't seem to think the WDJ to be a qualified source of info either. You prefer to believe traditional veterinary medicine where they have only 2-3 weeks of nutrition in vet school and sell food themselves. I see a traditional vet who has taken more courses in dog nutrition, Chinese herbs and acupuncture. She is NOT a holistic vet. And you still don't feel she is a qualified source of information. Most holistic meds and treatments can be explained by science. But if something can not be explained by science, doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had a relative who lived in Missouri during the Civil War who treated wounded soldiers on both sides. She was well known for her 'moldy bread poultice'. They did not know why it worked, just that it did. They did not know at the time that it was actually penicillin. So most western meds are rooted in holistic medicine.
> 
> I have chosen the foods and supplements I sell because I have researched them on my own before contacting the actual company. I also have selected my foods and supplements because they are the ones that have worked on my own dogs and are the ones who I'm consistently getting positive feed back from people that they have or are helping. I also choose products from talking to other boutique owners who have carried certain lines for extended periods of time and what their observations have been in their own dogs and their customers dogs. I chose Animal Essentials because I can call someone there who is not only very knowledgeable, but will tell me what might help in a situation even if they don't make that product themselves. I find that extremely reputable. It tells me that to this person and this company, it is about helping animals. Not about selling only their products. To insinuate that I am blindly choosing food and supplements because of a great sales pitch is more then insulting.


 
I've stated what my background is many times. 

I don't read WDJ, I have gotten my opinion about them from your posts and there's been so many untrue or half truth statements in the snipets of articles I've read that I've decided to not read WDJ.

The statment that Vets only have 2-3 weeks in veterinary school is another lie. Most of them have a full semester of nutrition in school. They have access to veterinary nutrition studies and research which is performed around the world. Not just the US. They have access to research performed by dog companies who have a certfied veterinary nutritionist on staff. They have access to articles and can even consult certified veterinary nutritionists if need be 

There's a reason there are regulations that state that the AAFCO statment of nutrition has to be on every package of dog food. There are reasons that it is important that the AAFCO statment for your dog food says that a particular food is COMPLETE AND BALANCED, deemed complete and balanced by clinical trials that is. If the AAFCO statment just says the dog food is formulated to meet the AAFCO nutritional levels, that's another thing.

It just bothers me that there's been lots of research on canine nutrition and that people "experiment" with their dog food by feeding them a food that has not been proven to be nutritionally complete and balanced and/or they feed them a food loaded with potentially harmful microorganisms just because its the fad or they believe some of the lies that dog food companies are using to market their product. If a company is criticizing the FDA or the AAFCO, one can assume that their food or supplement doesn't meet their standards.


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## Furbaby's Mommie

There is a "ignore poster" feature on the forum. :blush:


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## edelweiss

It just bothers me that there's been lots of research on canine nutrition and that people "experiment" with their dog food by feeding them a food that has not been proven to be nutritionally complete and balanced and/or they feed them a food loaded with potentially harmful microorganisms just because its the fad or *they believe some of the lies that dog food companies are using to market their product. *If a company is criticizing the FDA or the AAFCO, one can assume that their food or supplement doesn't meet their standards.[/QUOTE]

I am not a vet but I do know for a fact that food companies do not have a monopoly on "lies". As I have previously stated here they also exist in the so called scientific community. My oldest daughter is a scientist (she also teaches at a top-notch university in the UK in the dept. of medicine)---she helped get a doctor fired who was falsifying data (in the US at the NIH Rockville, MD.) in order to verify something he wanted to be true. I am sad to say this is certainly not an isolated incident. Science is not always a science!


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## MaryH

Crystal, I've been under the same impression as you based on what I've read and heard concerning how much time, if any, is devoted to canine nutrition in veterinary school. Joy, I'm not going to dispute your beliefs because I don't know how you arrived at them.

Here's what I know ... there are 28 Vet Schools in the U.S. If we divide and conquer maybe we can assemble 7 volunteers each willing to contact 4 schools to ask the following questions:

1. Do you offer a class or classes in canine/feline nutrition?

If Yes, then:

2. How many hours/week and how many weeks/semester?

3. Is this a mandatory core class or is it offered as an elective?

I'd be happy to provide school name and name, phone number, email address for the dean or associate dean of academics. I'd also be willing to collate the results. Any volunteers?


----------



## vjw

MaryH said:


> Crystal, I've been under the same impression as you based on what I've read and heard concerning how much time, if any, is devoted to canine nutrition in veterinary school. Joy, I'm not going to dispute your beliefs because I don't know how you arrived at them.
> 
> Here's what I know ... there are 28 Vet Schools in the U.S. If we divide and conquer maybe we can assemble 7 volunteers each willing to contact 4 schools to ask the following questions:
> 
> 1. Do you offer a class or classes in canine/feline nutrition?
> 
> If Yes, then:
> 
> 2. How many hours/week and how many weeks/semester?
> 
> 3. Is this a mandatory core class or is it offered as an elective?
> 
> I'd be happy to provide school name and name, phone number, email address for the dean or associate dean of academics. I'd also be willing to collate the results. Any volunteers?


 
Mary, you can look up the information online. Just google "veterinary school nutrition curriculum" and you'll find some examples.

Here's one example:

DVM Admissions :: North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine


----------



## vjw

I also meant to add in my previous post that even if an animal nutrition class isn't required in the main veterinary school curriculum, it is very possible the student took a class in PRE veterinary school. For instance, the University of Kentucky isn't a veterinary school, but does have a pre-vet curriculum. There's a nutrition class on there.:

http://www.uky.edu/Registrar/Major-Sheets/MS0910/agr/prevet.pdf


For those who haven't attended college, the 4 semester hours typically means you spend 4 hours a week IN CLASS for the whole semester. 

I've taken a human nutrition class which was 3 hours a week and it was the hardest class I took in college. Microbiology was the second hardest class I took and this microbiology class is the very reason I am concerned about the micro-organisms in raw food.


----------



## mysugarbears

MaryH said:


> Crystal, I've been under the same impression as you based on what I've read and heard concerning how much time, if any, is devoted to canine nutrition in veterinary school. Joy, I'm not going to dispute your beliefs because I don't know how you arrived at them.
> 
> Here's what I know ... there are 28 Vet Schools in the U.S. If we divide and conquer maybe we can assemble 7 volunteers each willing to contact 4 schools to ask the following questions:
> 
> 1. Do you offer a class or classes in canine/feline nutrition?
> 
> If Yes, then:
> 
> 2. How many hours/week and how many weeks/semester?
> 
> 3. Is this a mandatory core class or is it offered as an elective?
> 
> I'd be happy to provide school name and name, phone number, email address for the dean or associate dean of academics. I'd also be willing to collate the results. Any volunteers?


 

Mary i will volunteer to call 4 vet schools and ask the following questions.


----------



## pammy4501

vjw said:


> Here's a link to an article on WebMD that talks about some of the benefits, concerns, and risks. There's three pages.:
> 
> Raw Dog Food Diet: Benefits and Risks
> 
> 
> It doesn't make sense to me to feed a food loaded with pathogens and which is probably nutritionally incomplete just to have a dog with a shiney coat or nicer smelling breath. As mentioned in this article, there's other ways to get a shiney coat.


Interesting article. But, I think most people here are using "preparred" raw diets. I agree that just grinding up some meat and raw bones may not be an adequate diet for our dogs. The article talks about the risks (and I have heard this before) of the bacteria shedding in the dogs stool being risky to humans. I don't know about you all, but I handle dog stool (poop) the way I would handle any stool, I use a bag and don't handle it directly and wash with soap and H20 after any clean ups. All poop has ecoli in it. No big surprise there. I have been using a deyhdrated raw diet. I feel fairly certain that the dehydration process would kill any possible parasites. I like it much better than any of the high end dry kibbles that I was feeding. I just had Lola's (my sick dog) labs done, and they are nearly perfect for liver and kidney function (and that had not been the case previously). I think people need to decide what suits their style and ability to feed their dogs. Some may home cook, but that isn't for everyone. It takes some knowledge (and consultation from a nutritionist I feel) to be done well. I do think all food should meet the AAFCO guidelines to be sure it has all the required nutirents needed for a healty dog.

Here is what I am feeding:

Made from scratch with natural, USDA Turkey or USDA Beef, sweet potatoes, vegetables, and fruit. No grains, preservatives, artificial colors, by-products, or additives. *Only Natural Pet EasyRaw* dog food is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the *AAFCO *Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages. Take a look at the list of healthy ingredients below. There's nothing you can't pronounce, nothing unhealthy or unnatural, and they're all human-grade ingredients!



*Turkey & Sweet Potato*

*Ingredients* (in order by weight) - Sweet Potatoes, USDA Turkey, Whole Egg, Broccoli, Celery, Apples, Flax Meal, Pecans, Tricalcium Phosphate, Pumpkin, Cranberries, Basil, Dried Alfalfa, Ginger Root, Dried Kelp, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Acetate, Vitamin D2

*Calories* - 480 k/cal per 100 grams

*Guaranteed Analysis*
Crude Protein (min) 22.0%
Crude Fat (min) 8.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 5.1%
Moisture (max) 4.0%

*Nutritional Content* (Measured mg per 100 grams)
Choline Chloride 3620
Iodine 16.6
Chloride 6200
Folic Acid 8.41
Niacin 70.7
Pantothenic Acid 28.6
Thiamine 4.16
Riboflavin 15
Pyridoxine 7.14
Vitamin B12 0.121
Calcium 10000
Phosphorus 8800 ppm
Magnesium 1400
Potassium 13700
Sodium 5700
Iron 162
Zinc 120
Copper 8
Manganese 14
Selenium 0.72
Vitamin A 11684.38
Vitamin D 500
Vitamin E 50

And as some others have pointed out here, the commercial dog food industry hasn't had such a good track record. So, I don't think branching out and trying some of these products is a bad thing. You just may find something that works for you and your dog.


----------



## vjw

pammy4501 said:


> And as some others have pointed out here, the commercial dog food industry hasn't had such a good track record. So, I don't think branching out and trying some of these products is a bad thing. You just may find something that works for you and your dog.


According to whom? This is another thing that concerns me about dog food. There's enough problems with micro-organisms with food which has been cooked. Think about how much more potential there would be with food which hasn't been cooked.


----------



## vjw

pammy4501 said:


> It takes some knowledge (and consultation from a nutritionist I feel) to be done well. I do think all food should meet the AAFCO guidelines to be sure it has all the required nutirents needed for a healty dog.
> 
> Here is what I am feeding:
> 
> Made from scratch with natural, USDA Turkey or USDA Beef, sweet potatoes, vegetables, and fruit. No grains, preservatives, artificial colors, by-products, or additives. *Only Natural Pet EasyRaw* dog food is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the *AAFCO *Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages. Take a look at the list of healthy ingredients below. There's nothing you can't pronounce, nothing unhealthy or unnatural, and they're all human-grade ingredients!
> 
> 
> 
> *Turkey & Sweet Potato*
> 
> *Ingredients* (in order by weight) - Sweet Potatoes, USDA Turkey, Whole Egg, Broccoli, Celery, Apples, Flax Meal, Pecans, Tricalcium Phosphate, Pumpkin, Cranberries, Basil, Dried Alfalfa, Ginger Root, Dried Kelp, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Acetate, Vitamin D2
> 
> *Calories* - 480 k/cal per 100 grams
> 
> *Guaranteed Analysis*
> Crude Protein (min) 22.0%
> Crude Fat (min) 8.0%
> Crude Fiber (max) 5.1%
> Moisture (max) 4.0%
> 
> *Nutritional Content* (Measured mg per 100 grams)
> Choline Chloride 3620
> Iodine 16.6
> Chloride 6200
> Folic Acid 8.41
> Niacin 70.7
> Pantothenic Acid 28.6
> Thiamine 4.16
> Riboflavin 15
> Pyridoxine 7.14
> Vitamin B12 0.121
> Calcium 10000
> Phosphorus 8800 ppm
> Magnesium 1400
> Potassium 13700
> Sodium 5700
> Iron 162
> Zinc 120
> Copper 8
> Manganese 14
> Selenium 0.72
> Vitamin A 11684.38
> Vitamin D 500
> Vitamin E 50
> 
> And as some others have pointed out here, the commercial dog food industry hasn't had such a good track record. So, I don't think branching out and trying some of these products is a bad thing. You just may find something that works for you and your dog.


 
This is a good example of what I've been trying to get across. The AAFCO statement doesn't say it is "Complete and Balanced". It just says it is formulated to meet the nutritional levels. It also doesn't say it's been tested in clinical trials. Why not feed a food which is complete and balanced and has been proven to be so by at least a little testing?


----------



## vjw

Please keep in mind there has been DECADES of animal nurition research and this includes canine nutrition and feline nutrition.

One can find out a whole lot about who is doing animal nutrition research or who has done animal nutrition research by looking at the links provided by the American College of Veterinary Nutrition site:

Links

Yes, there's some dog food companies listed on there because dog food companies do research also. There's only a handful of them who employ a credentialed veterinary nutritionist. By credentialed veterinary nutritionist, I'm talking about a veterinarian who is board certified in veterinary nutrition. I say this because any quack can claim to be a nutrition expert.


----------



## pammy4501

vjw said:


> This is a good example of what I've been trying to get across. The AAFCO statement doesn't say it is "Complete and Balanced". It just says it is formulated to meet the nutritional levels. It also doesn't say it's been tested in clinical trials. Why not feed a food which is complete and balanced and has been proven to be so by at least a little testing?


 Or, perhaps decide based on your own dogs actual labs when eating the different diets? Lola on a vet *perscribed food*, went to 13lbs, bad liver and kidney values, and they told me she didn't have a very good prognosis. (GME) But since changing to this food, she is now 8.8lbs and labs have normalized. That's what motivates me. Not a study, and not a dog food tested by a questionable testing protocol.


----------



## CrystalAndZoe

Furbaby's Mommie said:


> There is a "ignore poster" feature on the forum. :blush:


:HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:



MaryH said:


> Crystal, I've been under the same impression as you based on what I've read and heard concerning how much time, if any, is devoted to canine nutrition in veterinary school. Joy, I'm not going to dispute your beliefs because I don't know how you arrived at them.
> 
> Here's what I know ... there are 28 Vet Schools in the U.S. If we divide and conquer maybe we can assemble 7 volunteers each willing to contact 4 schools to ask the following questions:
> 
> 1. Do you offer a class or classes in canine/feline nutrition?
> 
> If Yes, then:
> 
> 2. How many hours/week and how many weeks/semester?
> 
> 3. Is this a mandatory core class or is it offered as an elective?
> 
> I'd be happy to provide school name and name, phone number, email address for the dean or associate dean of academics. I'd also be willing to collate the results. Any volunteers?


I think this an excellent idea. I'm still trying to find the time to contact either AAFCO or a dog food company to find out from them what are the ways of obtaining the AAFCO certification. Once that's done, I'll be happy to help.

I can tell you this, the past 3 vets I have had have all told me that there is little to no courses on dog nutrition in vet school and that they have only had a couple of weeks on it in vet school. This was the same answer in 3 out of the 3 vets I asked in my area. 

I'm not sure why Joy is trying to argue the fact that individuals may have elected to take additional courses because it's those individuals that seem to be pointing more towards raw and certainly more towards high end foods...NOT Science Diet that is the main food most vets push and sell.



vjw said:


> This is a good example of what I've been trying to get across. The AAFCO statement doesn't say it is "Complete and Balanced". It just says it is formulated to meet the nutritional levels. It also doesn't say it's been tested in clinical trials. Why not feed a food which is complete and balanced and has been proven to be so by at least a little testing?


Joy...this is true for ALL foods whether they be raw, kibble or canned. To have the AAFCO certification, if it does not meet the formulated nutritional levels, it must say something like "for supplemental feeding". Which means it is not complete and balanced. So by having the AAFCO symbol on the food and not having that disclaimer, it means it is complete and balanced. I know this to be a fact because the state of Indiana is one of the toughest states for inspections and compliance of foods sitting on the shelves in pet stores. I have talked to the officer from the state of Indiana now several times and I know this to be fact.


----------



## mysugarbears

I'm apoligize Joanne i didn't answer your question and what this thread was about. I feed my pups Addiction Dehydrated Raw in the mornings i alternate between three of them without grains and no poultry due to Chloe's allergy to poultry...i also feed Nature's Variety Instinct Raw Medallions for their evening meal i rotate between three Lamb, Beef and Venison. Once the pups are out of the Addiction we will continue with the Nature's Variety for both meals. My pups are doing really well on it and Noelle my picky child gobbles the Nature's Variety up each meal she doesn't always do that with the Addiction. The reason i went with Nature's Variety is because i can get it local, the boutique that i get the food from also carries Primal, that may be another i try. I'm very happy with how my pups are doing on raw and i feel like i am feeding them the best food i can. I have been reading alot of info on the benefits of feeding raw and have actually fed raw many years ago to my cats before it became available in ready to feed.


----------



## vjw

pammy4501 said:


> Interesting article. But, I think most people here are using "preparred" raw diets. I agree that just grinding up some meat and raw bones may not be an adequate diet for our dogs. The article talks about the risks (and I have heard this before) of the bacteria shedding in the dogs stool being risky to humans. I don't know about you all, but I handle dog stool (poop) the way I would handle any stool, I use a bag and don't handle it directly and wash with soap and H20 after any clean ups. All poop has ecoli in it. No big surprise there. I have been using a deyhdrated raw diet. I feel fairly certain that the dehydration process would kill any possible parasites. I like it much better than any of the high end dry kibbles that I was feeding. I just had Lola's (my sick dog) labs done, and they are nearly perfect for liver and kidney function (and that had not been the case previously). I think people need to decide what suits their style and ability to feed their dogs. Some may home cook, but that isn't for everyone. It takes some knowledge (and consultation from a nutritionist I feel) to be done well. I do think all food should meet the AAFCO guidelines to be sure it has all the required nutirents needed for a healty dog.
> 
> Here is what I am feeding:
> 
> Made from scratch with natural, USDA Turkey or USDA Beef, sweet potatoes, vegetables, and fruit. No grains, preservatives, artificial colors, by-products, or additives. *Only Natural Pet EasyRaw* dog food is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the *AAFCO *Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages. Take a look at the list of healthy ingredients below. There's nothing you can't pronounce, nothing unhealthy or unnatural, and they're all human-grade ingredients!
> 
> 
> 
> *Turkey & Sweet Potato*
> 
> *Ingredients* (in order by weight) - Sweet Potatoes, USDA Turkey, Whole Egg, Broccoli, Celery, Apples, Flax Meal, Pecans, Tricalcium Phosphate, Pumpkin, Cranberries, Basil, Dried Alfalfa, Ginger Root, Dried Kelp, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Acetate, Vitamin D2
> 
> *Calories* - 480 k/cal per 100 grams
> 
> *Guaranteed Analysis*
> Crude Protein (min) 22.0%
> Crude Fat (min) 8.0%
> Crude Fiber (max) 5.1%
> Moisture (max) 4.0%
> 
> *Nutritional Content* (Measured mg per 100 grams)
> Choline Chloride 3620
> Iodine 16.6
> Chloride 6200
> Folic Acid 8.41
> Niacin 70.7
> Pantothenic Acid 28.6
> Thiamine 4.16
> Riboflavin 15
> Pyridoxine 7.14
> Vitamin B12 0.121
> Calcium 10000
> Phosphorus 8800 ppm
> Magnesium 1400
> Potassium 13700
> Sodium 5700
> Iron 162
> Zinc 120
> Copper 8
> Manganese 14
> Selenium 0.72
> Vitamin A 11684.38
> Vitamin D 500
> Vitamin E 50
> 
> And as some others have pointed out here, the commercial dog food industry hasn't had such a good track record. So, I don't think branching out and trying some of these products is a bad thing. You just may find something that works for you and your dog.


 

Pam, there's been many studies on the safety of 'prepared' raw diets and at the end of every study you'll find that they don't recommend raw because of the health risks. Here's an article in the Canadian Veterinary Journal:

Bacteriological evaluation of commercial canine and feline raw diets


----------



## vjw

Crystal&Zoe said:


> :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this an excellent idea. I'm still trying to find the time to contact either AAFCO or a dog food company to find out from them what are the ways of obtaining the AAFCO certification. Once that's done, I'll be happy to help.
> 
> I can tell you this, the past 3 vets I have had have all told me that there is little to no courses on dog nutrition in vet school and that they have only had a couple of weeks on it in vet school. This was the same answer in 3 out of the 3 vets I asked in my area.
> 
> I'm not sure why Joy is trying to argue the fact that individuals may have elected to take additional courses because it's those individuals that seem to be pointing more towards raw and certainly more towards high end foods...NOT Science Diet that is the main food most vets push and sell.
> 
> 
> 
> Joy...this is true for ALL foods whether they be raw, kibble or canned. To have the AAFCO certification, if it does not meet the formulated nutritional levels, it must say something like "for supplemental feeding". Which means it is not complete and balanced. So by having the AAFCO symbol on the food and not having that disclaimer, it means it is complete and balanced. I know this to be a fact because the state of Indiana is one of the toughest states for inspections and compliance of foods sitting on the shelves in pet stores. I have talked to the officer from the state of Indiana now several times and I know this to be fact.


 

Where in the world did you get that the courses are elective? Also, we're talking about a veterinary school curriculum which usually means you have to take the course. Please don't lie further about the veterinary nutrition training. The examples I gave are NOT holistic veterinary curriculum requirements.

Once again, the pet food which is most likey to be optimal as far as nutritional requirements will have an AAFCO statement that says the food is "complete and balanced" and that it's been tested.


----------



## MaryH

Joy, please don't accuse anyone here of lying. Just because I might believe something different than another person based on my research vs. theirs does not equate to one of us lying and the other telling the truth. I think if we call the vet schools directly and ask the questions I posted above, we will all learn something that we didn't know previously.


----------



## vjw

Here's an article from the Food and Drug Administration which states in the first paragraph that purchasing foods labeled as "complete and balanced" can help ensure that your pet's diet is nutritionally complete:

Selecting Nutritious Pet Foods


Here's an article which simplifies government regulation of the pet food industry. And yes it's a little complicated:

Government Regulation of the Pet Food Industry


This article explains it a little differently:

Pet Food Institute - The Voice of the Pet Food Industry


Here's a Q & A article on the AAFCO's site which might answer questions:

http://www.aafco.org/Portals/0/Public/Q-AND-A-REGARDING-PETFOODREGS.PDF


----------



## vjw

Please don't try to say that there's not any nutrition scientific evidence known by the veterinary community. I know better. 

Internationally, nutrition experts have have done thousands of scientific studies during the past three decades and know the basic nutrients which are optimal for cats and dogs. By all means, this doesn't mean they're not learning anything new.

If anyone wants to research the history of how dietary guidelines are issued for cats and dogs, you can pay about $300 for a report issued by National Academies' National Research Council. This report gives an extensive review and summary of THOUSANDS of scientific research papers published on cat and dog nutrition over the past 30 years.

Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats


----------



## educ8m

vjw said:


> Where in the world did you get that the courses are elective? Also, we're talking about a veterinary school curriculum which usually means you have to take the course. Please don't lie further about the veterinary nutrition training. The examples I gave are NOT holistic veterinary curriculum requirements.
> 
> Once again, the pet food which is most likey to be optimal as far as nutritional requirements will have an AAFCO statement that says the food is "complete and balanced" and that it's been tested.


I really feel the need to correct what I feel is a HUGEmisunderstanding on your part of what a holistic veterinarian is. Your are inferring that holistic vet does not have the same amount of training. In fact, a holistic veterinarian is a licensed, regular veterinarian who went through regular veterinary school. These vets have then taken FURTHER courses in other healing options besides conventional medicine. My veterinary center says this: 
Patients of Mariposa Veterinary Center benefit from a wide range of conventional and naturopathic medical services including surgery, dentistry, in house laboratory, acupuncture, chiropractic, and allergy treatments. Having all of these services under one roof saves your pet procedure time in medical diagnosis and provides you with the highest quality veterinary care and cost-effective treatment available.


----------



## vjw

MaryH said:


> Joy, please don't accuse anyone here of lying. Just because I might believe something different than another person based on my research vs. theirs does not equate to one of us lying and the other telling the truth. I think if we call the vet schools directly and ask the questions I posted above, we will all learn something that we didn't know previously.


It's fine to call vet. schools, but you have to also consider pre-vet nutrition classes.


Let's say there's a worse case scenerio and say that no vets have ever taken any nutrition training. I would think they are intelligent enough to read the nutrition articles in their professional journals which have been written by veterinary nutritionists/experts. There's more out there than we ever know about. The National Research Council of the US National Academy of Sciences is the leading provider of nutrient recommendations for dogs and cats and vets. have access to their studies.


----------



## Administrator

Please get this discussion back on topic as it has been reported to us. Thanks.


----------



## vjw

educ8m said:


> I really feel the need to correct what I feel is a HUGEmisunderstanding on your part of what a holistic veterinarian is. Your are inferring that holistic vet does not have the same amount of training. In fact, a holistic veterinarian is a licensed, regular veterinarian who went through regular veterinary school. These vets have then taken FURTHER courses in other healing options besides conventional medicine. My veterinary center says this:
> Patients of Mariposa Veterinary Center benefit from a wide range of conventional and naturopathic medical services including surgery, dentistry, in house laboratory, acupuncture, chiropractic, and allergy treatments. Having all of these services under one roof saves your pet procedure time in medical diagnosis and provides you with the highest quality veterinary care and cost-effective treatment available.


My problem with alternative medicine it that they use treatments/supplements which have no scientific evidence to back up their claims. This is why it's called "alternative". When there's scientific evidence to back up treatments, they become part of regular "medicine" or "veterinary medicine". I don't think for a minute that everything holistic is harmful, but you certainly have to be careful. When I hear that holistic vets are recommending raw when almost everyone else in the veterinary community says it's not worth the pathogen risk, yes I get a bad impression of holistic veterinarians and their nutrition recommendations.

I have a ton of health problems and I've tried quite a few alternative medicine therapies and treatments. I didn't have any luck with anything I've tried. I even had an allergic reaction to a couple of supplements I've tried and this is what worries me about giving supplements to our pets. They can't tell us when something makes them feel ill. Sometimes we can tell by their body language, but that can be tricky.

By the way,the government has a wonderful website which helps one sort out what is has been scientifically proven and what hasn't. It even lists the links to studies. It's called the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine". It's not all inclusive at this point, but they are getting there: 

National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine [NCCAM] - nccam.nih.gov Home Page



Edited to ADD: We also have to be careful about supplements/treatments given to our pets because a supplement or treatment may be fine for us, but can be TOXIC to our pets.


----------



## MaryH

To the OP, thanks for starting this thread. I fed raw years ago but as the population increased and my available time decreased I went back to feeding kibble. I called around to a couple of pet supply places today and have decided to give Primal a try.

To Deb and anyone else feeding Primal, what are you buying ... the chunks, patties or tubes? I think I will start with the patties and see how it goes. My plan is to feed it to the three who are in or growing into show coat. They are 2-1/2 yrs, 22 mos, and 8-1/2 mos. Since they are on a lamb and rice kibble I figured I'd start with lamb and branch out from there. I'm kind of excited about this new adventure. :yes:


----------



## wooflife

Getting back to topic - 

"Anyone feeding a raw food diet to their Maltese?

Thinking of a trying Primal Pet food that is a raw frozen food that is locally produced with organic meat and fruit/veggies.

Does anyone feed raw?

How does your dog do on it? Do you feed one or both meals with it?

Your experiences/opinions appreciated ..... "

I believe the original poster was looking for information from those who DO or HAVE feed/fed raw. Those who do not and would not feed raw were not solicited in this particular thread. 

I do not intend to argue the merits of my training or the sources for my information. What I will tell you is that I personally have researched BOTH sides of the argument and this what I believe. It is not my intention to change anyone's mind or point out flaws in their research and beliefs. I have simply formed my own opinion and I will share it with you because you asked me too. 


I have offered my personal experience, and I will offer some of the experiences my customers and friends have had as well. Some have had great experiences and some have not. Some didn't have a good experience the first time around but slowed down the transition process and are now have a good experience. It just isn't the right solution for some and they went back to home cooked, kibble or canned, and have found what works for them. 

IMO a healthy animal should not have any problems. An unhealthy animal may have very adverse reactions to raw food and should be transitioned carefully with the help of a veterinarian, holistic or otherwise. You may or may not know if your pet is completely healthy at the time of the switch. 

I personally recommend that if a customer would like to try to feed raw they should start using a HPP raw and feed as a treat to see how their dog reacts. The transition to raw food should be made slowly at the same time that probiotics are added to the diet. I do not recommend transitioning to raw for a dog who already has gastrointestinal problems. 

I feed Northwest Naturals and Primal to all of my dogs and cats. I have not had problems with those brands. My dogs do not do well on Stella and Chewy's raw frozen or dehydrated, it has too much fat for them. Bravo has a lot of bone and can constipate my pets requiring me to add a bit of pumpkin. I have had customers tell me this as well. 

Just as with dry foods or kibble you need to read the labels for ingredients and guaranteed analysis. Some have more fat than others, and some have more protein. You need to choose wisely and watch your pet for signs that a change might be needed. 



*
*



​


----------



## vjw

It's anyone's choice what dog food they chose, but I think if you chose raw, you have an ethical obligation to be clean with the dog poop. Keep it on your own property if you will.

You'd be surprised how many people are immunosuppressed and are susceptible to pathogens which wouldn't affect a normal person. It's not just elderly and people with AIDS. For instance, if a person is on any kind of high dose steroids, their immune system can tank. Been there done that when I have had a respiratory infection. 

If a person has taken steroids for an illness and their immune system is compromised, it takes up to one year for their immune system to build up after they stop taking them. Even steroid nasal spray instructions say to avoid sick people.

My brother-in-law has a disease called sarcoidosis and he has been in the hospital many times just because his body couldn't fight infections from micro-organisms that a healthy person wouldn't be susceptible to.

Also, who's to say when our dogs are suddenly become unable to cope with the extra pathogens in raw. They could be fine today but who knows what their health status will be next week?


----------



## wooflife

I am not obligated to worry about someone else's issues with immune suppression, that's their job.


----------



## beckinwolf

My limited experience with raw: 

I tried to feed Micky the frozen raw diet from Nature's Variety and the frozen raw diet from Stella & Chewy's. He wouldn't touch them and I didn't like the way they smelled after they had been thawed out. They just smelled too strong, not fresh enough, or just bleh. We did however try out the Stella & Chewy's dehydrated raw. Micky LOVES it! It doesn't smell bad and I feel like I can trust the processing they go through. He's tried the beef and the lamb so far and loves it. I've tried some of the other dehydrated foods like Honest Kitchen and Sojo's but he didn't like those either. If I'm going to go down that road and feed him something raw, then I might as well feed him a food that he likes and enjoys. I was worried about raw before because my grandparents were living with me, but now that they are at their assisted living facility, I can feed raw and not worry about them getting sick from it. Just on the off chance of it happening. It was always a worry in the back of my mind.


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## vjw

wooflife said:


> I am not obligated to worry about someone else's issues with immune suppression, that's their job.


Scary!!! So you're the kind of person who doesn't mind if you are personally responsible for making an infirmed person sicker???


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## wooflife

I got sucked in to the drama and now I'm getting out.


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## lovesophie

Well, I haven't read through this thread or the links posted, but I think Primal is a fine, fine food. I think Sophie was a little over three months old when I started feeding her raw, or maybe she was four months old-- I can't remember-- but when I transitioned her from kibble to raw, I started with Primal, and have had zero problems with it. She has done very well on the different Primal formulas I fed her. I believe Sophie has tried all the formulas, but the ones I mainly rotated were venison, quail, lamb, and duck. I fed her the little frozen nuggets (I believe they came in a 4 lb bag). She's not on Primal at the moment, but I wouldn't hesitate to start her back on it in the future. For now, she's enjoying ZiwiPeak. Anyway, I remember reading that Primal is good for dogs with allergies. Good luck!!


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## bellaratamaltese

wooflife said:


> I got sucked in to the drama and now I'm getting out.


I honestly don't know why there should be ANY drama in this thread. 

Why cant' we just have a informative discussion about these type of topics without it turning nasty and throwing out guilt trips?

I would venture to say that 99% of us on this forum are responsible pet owners who pick up their dogs poo in public - so just an 'fyi' about the potential bacteria would have sufficed here. 

I am looking forward to hearing about primal for those who switch to it.


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## joyomom

Honestly, being the original poster I just had a question of who fed raw and how they liked it or their experiences/opinions with it.

It was not my intention for this to upset people, I just always respect the people on SM because I believe they are responsible pet owners.

If you have commented about your experiences I truly appreciate your help.
Thank you very much!


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## bellaratamaltese

joyomom said:


> Honestly, being the original poster I just had a question of who fed raw and how they liked it or their experiences/opinions with it.
> 
> It was not my intention for this to upset people, I just always respect the people on SM because I believe they are responsible pet owners.
> 
> If you have commented about your experiences I truly appreciate your help.
> Thank you very much!


The point here is - you shouldn't have to apologize for asking a question. It shouldn't have gotten to the point where you felt the need to and I am so sorry you felt like you had to apologize! 

I'm sure many of us have noticed the slowness of the forum lately - I know I have so it pains me to see threads turn nasty for little apparent reason.


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## sophie

For those who feed pre-prepared frozen raw and rotate the different proteins, how often do you rotate? Would you feed a whole bag of the lamb and then feed a bag of venison or do you just rotate every couple of days or so? I've been feeding one bag until it's gone before feeding the next.

Linda


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## Furbaby's Mommie

As I said I have fed Nature's V. frozen raw for about a year. I have been rotating the proteins by buying a different one each time. If I had more room in my freezer I would buy at least 2 flavors at a time. There are 48 medallions in the bags, and Shoni only eats 1 and a half a day, so it take about a month per bag. He is getting an 1/8 C. of mixed kibble also. ( I miss spoke previously and said a 1/4 c.) He was eating 2 medallions and a 1/4 c. of kibble and gained too much weight. I buy a small sack of kibble ( one of several of the organic natural brands) then pick up a couple of samples of others and mix them. He likes the variety and I think the more variety we/they eat the better.


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## sophie

Furbaby's Mommie said:


> As I said I have fed Nature's V. frozen raw for about a year. I have been rotating the proteins by buying a different one each time. If I had more room in my freezer I would buy at least 2 flavors at a time. There are 48 medallions in the bags, and Shoni only eats 1 and a half a day, so it take about a month per bag. He is getting an 1/8 C. of mixed kibble also. ( I miss spoke previously and said a 1/4 c.) He was eating 2 medallions and a 1/4 c. of kibble and gained too much weight. I buy a small sack of kibble ( one of several of the organic natural brands) then pick up a couple of samples of others and mix them. He likes the variety and I think the more variety we/they eat the better.


Thanks, Dee. I keep a bag in the freezer inside and one in the freezer outside. I may start rotating more often so they don't get tired of the one. They really love these medallions - they finish off their bowls in no time. What amazes me though is that when they are finished there's no more begging for more.


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## educ8m

MaryH said:


> To the OP, thanks for starting this thread. I fed raw years ago but as the population increased and my available time decreased I went back to feeding kibble. I called around to a couple of pet supply places today and have decided to give Primal a try.
> 
> To Deb and anyone else feeding Primal, what are you buying ... the chunks, patties or tubes? I think I will start with the patties and see how it goes. My plan is to feed it to the three who are in or growing into show coat. They are 2-1/2 yrs, 22 mos, and 8-1/2 mos. Since they are on a lamb and rice kibble I figured I'd start with lamb and branch out from there. I'm kind of excited about this new adventure. :yes:


Mary, I am feeding the nuggets. I am feeding more than the recommended amount based on Gracie's behavior. She still seemed hungry when I fed only three. Last time I weiged her she was still under four pounds. I feed her two nuggets in the morning and two at night unless I've used her food rations during training. I haven't tried the patties, but think they would be easy to use, too. I don't have to worry about overfeeding Gracie because she quits eating when she's full. :aktion033: I hope your fluffs like the Primal.


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## wooflife

I feed both patties and nuggets, both are easy to work with, I change the protein every time I open a new bag. I also stick to the lower fat varieties. My dogs and cats favorite seems to be rabbit with the Turkey and Sardines running a close second. We also do Quail Pheasant, Chicken, and a little Bison from time to time. 

I also used Northwest Naturals Chicken and Turkey as they are lower in fat as well. 

With the lamb and beef varieties there is a much higher fat content. You may want to wean onto those varieties to avoid any issues with pancreatitis. A good probiotic rich in lipase can also help you avoid pancreatitis or so I have been told by Dr. Becker. 

Izzy weighs 4.4 lbs and eats one nugget in the morning and one nugget at night. My 14 lb Havanese and my 13 lb cat get 2 nuggets in the morning and 2 at night. My 17 lb BG gets 3 in the morning and 3 at night. So with 3 dogs and 2 cats I go through about 6 lbs a week. I'm still working out the amounts for the new kitty she always wants about 4 nuggets per meal but I know thats too much so I'm just watching her weight and figuring it out as I go.


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## educ8m

sophie said:


> For those who feed pre-prepared frozen raw and rotate the different proteins, how often do you rotate? Would you feed a whole bag of the lamb and then feed a bag of venison or do you just rotate every couple of days or so? I've been feeding one bag until it's gone before feeding the next.
> 
> Linda


I started out with three bags of different proteins, but that took up way too much room. I now just keep two proteins at a time and rotate randomly. Sometimes I feed the same thing three or four days in a row and other times I alternate every day. Lately she has been turning up her nose at the rabbit. Don't know what changed for her. That's Ok though because it's almost twice the cost of the some of the other proteins, so I wasn't planning on buying it again for awhile.


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## lovesophie

sophie said:


> For those who feed pre-prepared frozen raw and rotate the different proteins, how often do you rotate? Would you feed a whole bag of the lamb and then feed a bag of venison or do you just rotate every couple of days or so? I've been feeding one bag until it's gone before feeding the next.
> 
> Linda


I used to rotate 4 proteins at a time: one protein for breakfast and one protein for dinner on one day, other two proteins for breakfast and dinner on second day. It was a hassle having to thaw 4 proteins at a time, but this kept my girl interested in her food most of the time. If I tried to feed her a bag of one protein at a time, she'd definitely get bored!


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## gopotsgo

joyomom said:


> Honestly, being the original poster I just had a question of who fed raw and how they liked it or their experiences/opinions with it.
> 
> It was not my intention for this to upset people, I just always respect the people on SM because I believe they are responsible pet owners.
> 
> If you have commented about your experiences I truly appreciate your help.
> Thank you very much!



Hello,
I have fed a commercially available raw frozen diet to my pups for about two years now. I started out with Nature's Variety but switched to Paw Naturaw as I believe it to be of higher quality and is organic. My experience, LOVE it. They chow it down and you have got to love the smaller, less smelly poops. My 3 and 7 year old are in perfect health with perfect blood work. Will never switch back to kibble. When we travel I use the dehydrated raw, either Ziwi Peak or Paw Naturaw. I tend to avoid the poultry raw as much as possible as, in my experience, it leads to tear staining. So I stick with mostly the bison, elk, rabbit and beef on occasion. Paw Naturaw has added fruits and veggies as well as supplements, it makes it so easy.
I did do my research and believe it is the best diet in most cases for dogs. While I generally shy away from touting my own horn, it seems in this particular thread it may help, so I can avoid any possible "attacks". I believe there are very few people on SM with a higher or equivalent level of education than I (M.S. in Microbiology, M.D. and years of lab research) so I do believe I have an appropriate foundation to base my decision on.
I think it is wonderful you are trying to do what is best for your dog. Good luck!


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## joyomom

gopotsgo said:


> Hello,
> I have fed a commercially available raw frozen diet to my pups for about two I tend to avoid the poultry raw as much as possible as, in my experience, it leads to tear staining. So I stick with mostly the bison, elk, rabbit and beef on occasion. Paw Naturaw has added fruits and veggies as well as supplements, it makes it so easy.
> I did do my research and believe it is the best diet in most cases for dogs. While I generally shy away from touting my own horn, it seems in this particular thread it may help, so I can avoid any possible "attacks". I believe there are very few people on SM with a higher or equivalent level of education than I (M.S. in Microbiology, M.D. and years of lab research) so I do believe I have an appropriate foundation to base my decision on.
> I think it is wonderful you are trying to do what is best for your dog. Good luck!



Thank you for the information and especially about the tear staining. Mateo was always on beef and he has had very little tear staining, so I was wanting to know if anyone used just beef, etc.
I appreciate all the tips and information as I am trying to make the best decision for my dogs :ThankYou:


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