# Just wondering?



## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

I have been reading alot latly on sm as well as other sites, and is it just me or are breeders letting alot of pups go at 10 weeks now? Seems to me like this has become a commen practice? I couldn't imagin getting Dahlia at 10 weeks, she probbably only weighed 10 oz! I would of set her some where and lost her! LOL. No really, I thought you wernt supposed to let maltese puppies go till at the very earliest 12 weeks yet almost everyone latly getting new puppies are only 10.....did I miss something?


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Reputable breeders keep toy pups until, at least, 12-weeks of age.

The pups you are seeing are, more than likely, from Backyard Breeders and PetStores (Who get the pups from Puppymills). They, quite often, sell toy breeds at 8-weeks of age. 

I've known PetStores, and BYB's who have sold pups at 6-weeks of age. My Frankie is one of them. Makes me sick.


----------



## lillady (Jan 25, 2007)

I wonder if some of these puppmills and such do it so they don't have to pay for any extra vaccinations? Stupid! :smmadder:


----------



## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

It sure seems that way, doesn't it??? It's just like everything else in life--people these days want things more quickly--even instantly. I know I fall into that trap myself and I have to take a step back and get some perspective and ask myself why the hurry. Why people can't wait just a few more weeks is beyond me. I think in most cases it is probably a combo of wanting things ASAP and the "breeders" use that to their advantage to make $$$ faster. Sad.


----------



## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> I wonder if some of these puppmills and such do it so they don't have to pay for any extra vaccinations? Stupid! :smmadder:[/B]


I know of this breeder/puppymill that I personally helped to have shut down that sold puppies at 5-6 weeks claiming they were 12 weeks and calling them tea-cups. They do it for many different reasons but the bottom line is to make a buck at the cost of the puppy.


----------



## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

I got Bogie at 8 weeks of age. I didn't know any better. Bogie's sister had been sold the week before. I thought that was fine since the puppies were weaned. Who Knew? Well I certainly know better now. There are way too many people out there that just don't know any better, both buyers and sellers. Actually I think my breeder was as uneducated as I was. (BYB) She seemed to take good care of her dogs, and the puppies were raised in her house and paper trained and had their age appropriate shots. I really think she believed she was selling her dogs at the right time. I thought I was doing good by buying from a loving home instead of a petshop. 

Of course commercial breeders should know better. For them it just a case of how much profit can be made. 
I try and educate people about where and when to buy puppies. I am usually ignored. I guess all we can do is continue to try share what we have learned.


----------



## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

I understand that there are alot of people that buy, and just don't know anybetter, but one would think, JMO that in the last few years toy breeds have become very popular, and if your gonna spend $$$$ on a pup that one would of done some research befor such a high doller purchase  , and Im just not understanding, maybe ive been thumped on the head a few to many times :brownbag: , that these people that are buying 10 week old pups or younger and bringing them home, havent heard somewhere, that they shouldnt be seprated from their mums so soon. Ive seen all the cute pics of all the new young ones and they are all so adorable, but then in that instant I see such heartack in store for most of the new owners. I know that reputable breeders arnt going to let these little guys go any sooner then 12 weeks sometimes longer, so when i see these happy, loving people purchasing these little guys so young, i know where they have come from, and the sorrow that alot of these new owners will feel in the future. Now im not saying that all pups purchased at 10 weeks or younger are all unhealthy...so please don't be offended, It just seemed to me latly that there has been more of them popping up then usual, which made me wonder if the appropriate age had been brought down to 10 weeks for these guys. Please buy from reputable breeders...stop the Mills and BYB. There is no such thing as a cheap maltese, no matter where you buy him/her. She may be cheap now, but in a few short months, or perhaps years she could cost you a fortune in vet bills, and more then you can ever imagin in heartache.


----------



## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

Some people will breed dogs without a good pedigree and sell at any age just for money. I'm not surprised at all. It is all about greed. I am just so blessed we finally found a good breeder. I learned my lessons the hard way. The people who don't stand by the AMA code of ethics should be shut down--ALL of them. Having bought dogs from both BYB and kennels, I know how bad it can be. Death at 5 days and death at 5 years says a lot about these types of people. My BYB dog had an AKC registration, but he had sooo many problems. I just wish more people would learn that you shouldn't buy from a kennel or a byb. Also, paying big bucks doesn't do it, either. People looking for a good dog should really should research a recommended AMA breeder. JMHO.


----------



## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

I waited until Jax was 13 weeks and I am *REALLY* impatient. I waited the 12 weeks, then one more because I was moving and didn't want to have him go through all of that. I think everyone should do their research AND follow it. Some people may read it and think "well, as long as their weaned...." I don't know, but I really hope all the puppies sold that young are healthy, happy and live long lives. rayer:


----------



## PuttiePie (Nov 22, 2006)

> Some people will breed dogs without a good pedigree and sell at any age just for money. I'm not surprised at all. It is all about greed. I am just so blessed we finally found a good breeder. I learned my lessons the hard way. The people who don't stand by the AMA code of ethics should be shut down--ALL of them. Having bought dogs from both BYB and kennels, I know how bad it can be. Death at 5 days and death at 5 years says a lot about these types of people. My BYB dog had an AKC registration, but he had sooo many problems. I just wish more people would learn that you shouldn't buy from a kennel or a byb. Also, paying big bucks doesn't do it, either. People looking for a good dog should really should research a recommended AMA breeder. JMHO.[/B]


I could not agree with you more...GREED kills...some will do ANYTHING for money, I am always saddened by that.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I wish I'd saved the article I found years ago that said that people spend more time researching the purchase of a $100 microwave oven than they do a purebred puppy. It is so true and it boggles the mind.

It would seem that the first thing a prospective Maltese buyer would do would be to vist the American Maltese Association website. It states clearly there that Maltese breeders should not sell puppies before twelve weeks of age. Common sense would tell you that any so-called breeder who doesn't follow that rule probably isn't following the other rules like screening for genetic illnesses or breeding to the standard.

This is from *Foxstone Maltese*:

If a person/breeder is trying to sell you a Maltese puppy that is under 12 weeks old, or heaven forbid, a Maltese puppy that is 8 weeks old or younger, that person is either extremely unknowledgeable of the Maltese breed as a whole or that person does not have the best interests of their Maltese puppies at heart. Either way, in my opinion, you should steer clear of a person, such as this, since they are considered to be, in my opinion, unethical and/or disreputable Maltese breeders.

No "reputable" Maltese breeder is going to sell you a 
Maltese puppy that is under 12 weeks old!!!!

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm

The byb's and pet shops just love the people who only care what sex the puppy is and how big she will get. Easy money.


----------



## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

You know I've been seeing that on here too. It's one thing if you don't know, but anyone who has been a member here and has done just a bit of reading on the forum has to have seen info about the 12 week rule. It's repeated over and over again. So it surprises me to see when members get a puppy younger than 12 weeks. :mellow:


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I think most times the poster joins after they've gotten their puppy too young. We do get the optimists who are waiting for a puppy they put a deposit on who will be shipped before twelve weeks, but decide to go ahead and hope for the best despite our warnings.

In those cases, all we can do is advise them to watch out for hypoglycemia and answer the inevitable questions that will follow about how to deal with their puppy's biting since he missed the "bite inhibition" lessons he should have gotten from his mom and siblings.

We can give advice about housebreaking later on when these puppies are hard to housebreak because they've spent their lives in cages.

We can answer questions about how their puppy could possibly have grown up to be eleven pounds when the breeder assured them she would only be five pounds.

And, of course, we can offer our support and sympathy when these puppies have health problems later on.


----------



## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

No I mean people who have been members for awhile and still get a puppy to young. That's what makes me a bit :huh: --when someone knows better but does it anyway.


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> No I mean people who have been members for awhile and still get a puppy to young. That's what makes me a bit :huh: --when someone knows better but does it anyway. [/B]



Oh yes, that always makes my day. And it happens WAY too often.


----------



## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

The 12 week rule is rarely followed in Australia , even the BEST breeders in this country sell at 8 - 10 weeks . I hadn't even heard of the 12 week rule until I joined this board . Actually the 12 week rule is debatable , studies show the primary socialization period for dogs begins at 3 weeks of age and is diminishing by 12 weeks. Peak sensitivity is at 6 to 8 weeks. Beyond 12 weeks there is a tendency to act fearfully towards new people, animals and situations. Many young dogs will regress or become fearful again if they do not receive continued social interaction as they grow and develop. It is an interesting theory , but why is only the U.S following this practice ?. I'm going to the Royal Melbourne Show in a few weeks , ALL the top Maltese breeders will be there , I'll ask them why 12 weeks is not followed here , I shall be very interested in what they say .Sarah


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

> The 12 week rule is rarely followed in Australia , even the BEST breeders in this country sell at 8 - 10 weeks . I hadn't even heard of the 12 week rule until I joined this board . Actually the 12 week rule is debatable , studies show the primary socialization period for dogs begins at 3 weeks of age and is diminishing by 12 weeks. Peak sensitivity is at 6 to 8 weeks. Beyond 12 weeks there is a tendency to act fearfully towards new people, animals and situations. Many young dogs will regress or become fearful again if they do not receive continued social interaction as they grow and develop. It is an interesting theory , but why is only the U.S following this practice ?. I'm going to the Royal Melbourne Show in a few weeks , ALL the top Maltese breeders will be there , I'll ask them why 12 weeks is not followed here , I shall be very interested in what they say .Sarah[/B]


Thanks Sarah, you articulated exactly what I was thinking. 

Add me to the list of people who have been SM members for a long time yet still 'broke the 12 week rule' - Dakota came home when she was 9 weeks old, and I don't believe I did the 'wrong' thing. Many may disagree, and that's totally ok - everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I respect that, so please respect mine.

Oh and Sarah - let me know how Nan Carter gets on at the show  She uses Dakota's grandfather in her breeding program.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I got my first Malt, Rosebud at just under 8 weeks and Kallie at 8 weeks. I got Catcher at just under 12 weeks and I saw a big difference in his ability to adjust. I didn't know about the 12-week rule when I got Rosebud in 1990 and Kallie in 2002 and didn't really understand it when I got Catcher in 2004. But when I saw how much more settled and stable his personality was, it made sense. Eight weeks may be fine for a larger breed but not for a Malt. After that first-hand experience, I would never recommend anyone getting a puppy at 8 or 9 weeks.

What bothers and amazes me are the breeders who sell at 8 weeks and don't even mention anything about hypoglycemia or how to care for the pups. The folks I bought Rosebud and Kallie from just handed them to me and said "goodbye and good luck" and that was it. Catcher's breeder emailed me about 8 pages of care and feeding instructions including details about hypoglycemia, etc.

The information I have read on hypoglycemia says it is much more likely at under 12 weeks, which may be another reason to wait until 12 weeks.


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> The 12 week rule is rarely followed in Australia , even the BEST breeders in this country sell at 8 - 10 weeks . I hadn't even heard of the 12 week rule until I joined this board . Actually the 12 week rule is debatable , studies show the primary socialization period for dogs begins at 3 weeks of age and is diminishing by 12 weeks. Peak sensitivity is at 6 to 8 weeks. Beyond 12 weeks there is a tendency to act fearfully towards new people, animals and situations. Many young dogs will regress or become fearful again if they do not receive continued social interaction as they grow and develop. It is an interesting theory , but why is only the U.S following this practice ?. I'm going to the Royal Melbourne Show in a few weeks , ALL the top Maltese breeders will be there , I'll ask them why 12 weeks is not followed here , I shall be very interested in what they say .Sarah[/B]


The 12 week rule is a rule that the AMA organization designated for its breeder members not one set by the AKC so its not really an "American" rule per say. It is a rule set by a maltese organization that feels so strongly about it that it is incorporated into the organizations's core beliefs as to what is expected of its membership.


----------



## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

I brought Mia home at 9 weeks because I didn't know any better. I always had large dogs and they were good to go at 8 weeks. My BYB breeder did inform me about hypoglycemia and to keep Nurtacal on hand. I was the one desperate to get Mia and called her every other day from about 7 weeks forward. I don't think she knew any better because she told me the reason she held off for the extra week was she wanted to wait until she was eating perfectly well before giving her to me. In the future when I get another it will be at 12 weeks + and from a reputable breeder. Live and learn!


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> I got my first Malt, Rosebud at just under 8 weeks and Kallie at 8 weeks. I got Catcher at just under 12 weeks and I saw a big difference in his ability to adjust. I didn't know about the 12-week rule when I got Rosebud in 1990 and Kallie in 2002 and didn't really understand it when I got Catcher in 2004. But when I saw how much more settled and stable he was, it made sense. Eight weeks may be fine for a larger breed but not for a Malt.
> 
> What bothers and amazes me are the breeders who sell at 8 weeks and don't even mention anything about hypoglycemia or how to care for the pups. The folks I bought Rosebud and Kallie from just handed them to me and said "goodbye and good luck" and that was it. Catcher's breeder emailed me about 8 pages of care and feeding instructions including details about hypoglycemia, etc.
> 
> The information I have read on hypoglycemia says it is much more likely at under 12 weeks, which may be another reason to wait until 12 weeks.[/B]


Sher, you are so right. These breeders who sell their puppies too young don't warn about hypoglycemia often enough. The greatest risk is for pipies under twelve weeks.

They also don't warn about the dangers of taking your puppy in public places before he has all his shots.

It only reinforces the fact that breeders who sell their puppies before twelve weeks old are not responsible and don't care about the well being of their puppies. They are just out to make the almighty dollar.

That's interesting that Australian Maltese breeders don't follow the twelve week rule. Here in the US the American Maltese Association clearly states:

8. I will not sell a puppy before it has been given a veterinarian health examination and has received at least one inoculation against distemper, hepatitis and parvo. A puppy will remain in my possession until at least 12 weeks of age

http://www.americanmaltese.org/ama_club_code_of_ethics.htm


----------



## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

I have been fighting a Puppymill lady in our State for years. It is almost impossible to stop her so I educate people when I see her advertise. We take out ads in papers telling of the 12 week rule and toy breeds. Every time I see an ad selling Malts 6 weeks, 8 wks, or 10 wks I goolge their address and send them the 12 week rule and offer to talk to them. Not once have I ever heard from even one of the many letters that I have sent.
I have many stories of my plight and what I have encountered but it only gives me strength to continue. My husband and I love these sweet babies sooooo much and with his help we will continue to fight this battle.


----------



## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

We brought Scooby home at just over 7 weeks, as you all know I am an Aussie and as Sarah said there is no 12 week rule of thumb in Aust. plus I didn't know any better either. He came from a BYB too, again my ignorance of not knowing better till I joined my first Maltese forum.
I have to say though Scooby was such a delightful little puppy, very easy to potty train, very happy and outgoing and he never gets into mischief, never has, he does have attitude but we can live with that, he is not a biter, he just protests if he disagrees with something  He never had a sick day in his life till he went on Rimadyl for a prolonged period and that almost killed him, but he is doing great now. rayer: Thank God
We followed the 12 week rule with Koko and also went to the best breeder in our area, he weighed just under 2lb and we had some episodes of hypoglycemia, thankfully I was totally aware of the possibility and watched him closely and managed them with Karo which worked almost instantly. He has IBS which hasn't worried him for a while now and also has issues with his eyes growing hair in strange places, but we have addressed that and he is much happier in that respect now.
Koko is mischievious, hypo, very assertive about wanting to be number one in spite of our trying to put Scooby first in everything when it comes to food and treats, but Koko gets extremely upset and screams and tries to bite me if I take a treat to Scooby first, he follows me and nips at the back of my legs, and runs in front of me trying to stop me getting to Scooby, I find carrying a squirt bottle helps with that sometimes, but my point is this, I followed the rules closely with him and yet he is the juvenile delinquent of the house.
I will say though he is getting a little better with age, he is learning that tantrums are not going to get him his way, and he is becoming more affectionate and less hyper, but he is extremely jealous of any attention that Scooby gets.
I guess it's just a difference in personality really, Scooby is the patient one and Koko is the little stinker, they are like chalk and cheese personality wise  
We love them both and wouldn't have them any other way, life in our house with our little boys is good


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

I'd hate for anyone to think that breeders in Australia are irresponsible - so just to clarify - there is a vaccination protocol here, it differs slightly from that in the US, and I'm sure it differs from many other countries, as we are all susceptible to different diseases of course, but there are requirements for vaccinations here, also, I don't believe any of the reputable breeders I have spoken to are not educated enough not to pass on the dangers of socialising a pup before it's fully vaccinated (although I'm sure there are plenty others out there who fit the bill).

I guess my point is - without wanting to cause any offense - there are other members here other than those in the US, and not everyone abides by the 'AMA' - I think each country has it's own 'best practice' and it may differ from that of the 'AMA' - and although I understand the majority of members here are from the US, please keep an open mind - the rest of the world isn't completely ignorant.

Whilst I do appreciate everyone's opinion here, and will continue to do so, I just wanted to point out that this is an international forum, and not all countries reference the AMA.


----------



## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

OK - is it confession time???

I got Archie from ... :brownbag: ....a pet shop (probably from a puppy mill) - but they had said he just got there the day before and he was 12 weeks old. (so do I get 1 point at least?) we were out in San Diego on vacation visiting family and my daughter-in-law said this pet shop only carried very good dogs. :blush: shows you what I know.
I will always worry about his health (even though he's healthy now) - but I love that guy more than life itself. Knock on wood, he's fine and almost 4 years old now.

Abbey came from a breeder who has been mentored by a long time breeder further south in our state. Her dogs are all beautiful and all in full coat. The only problem is, she did sell them early because of *her* health at the time and the fact that the Abbey's mother had stopped nursing them. I believe it was a one time thing (hopefully). 

But anyway, I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but Archie has a much more calm temperment, he's sweet and loving. Where on the other hand, Abbey is alittle high strung and quite Yappy. I usually attribute this to her leaving her mom too early. Then again, maybe it's a male/female thing. Actually, I wouldn't trade either one for anything in the world.

All I can add is that if I ever want another pup, I will certainly go to a reputable breeder and get the best bred dog I can find. 

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> I'd hate for anyone to think that breeders in Australia are irresponsible - so just to clarify - there is a vaccination protocol here, it differs slightly from that in the US, and I'm sure it differs from many other countries, as we are all susceptible to different diseases of course, but there are requirements for vaccinations here, also, I don't believe any of the reputable breeders I have spoken to are not educated enough not to pass on the dangers of socialising a pup before it's fully vaccinated (although I'm sure there are plenty others out there who fit the bill).
> 
> I guess my point is - without wanting to cause any offense - there are other members here other than those in the US, and not everyone abides by the 'AMA' - I think each country has it's own 'best practice' and it may differ from that of the 'AMA' - and although I understand the majority of members here are from the US, please keep an open mind - the rest of the world isn't completely ignorant.
> 
> Whilst I do appreciate everyone's opinion here, and will continue to do so, I just wanted to point out that this is an international forum, and not all countries reference the AMA.[/B]


 :aktion033: :aktion033: great post Jacks!!!!! :biggrin: ANDREA


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I was curious to see how the Australian Maltese breed club differs from the AMA, but had trouble finding information.

One source said that you abide by the UK standard, but all the links to that are old and expired.

I found the Maltese Kennel Club of NSW AUSTRALIA. Is that the official breed organization?

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/9535/index.htm

You're right. They don't seem to have special guidlelines for what age a Maltese should be sold, but just refer to the Royal NSW Canine Council "Code of Ethics" which I assume applies to all breeds, large or small?


<blockquote>As stated in the Royal NSW Canine Council "Code of Ethics" no puppy should be sold under the age of eight weeks. A puppy under this age is subject to stress from conditions such as over handling and not getting enough rest, or refusing to eat due to changes in home and food. This stress can result in "hypoglycemia" - a condition in which the blood sugar levels drop and needs immediate veterinary attention. The puppy should have had at least one inoculation against Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvo Virus a minimum of 7 days before going to a new home. </blockquote>

It's interesting to see the difference between the two countries. It's good to see both clubs agree on where to buy a Maltese puppy, though:

<blockquote>WHERE TO BUY.

A pet shop may not be the most perfect place to purchase your Maltese. Most of their puppies come from either commercial breeding establishments or from backyard breeders whose only concern is the almighty dollar. Little concern is given to quality, care or socialization of the animals. If answering newspaper ads try to see as many as possible before making your purchase. Try to locate a dedicated breeder/exhibitor. The goals of these breeders are to improve the breed and they spare no expense in trying to breed the best Maltese they can. By contacting this type of breeder you have the opportunity to see where the puppy was raised and, possibly see several generations of ancestors. The personality and appearance of these older dogs will give you an indication of how your puppy will mature. When you choose a puppy from a breeder/exhibitor you will have someone to call on for advice and assistance in all aspects of puppy care. A breeders commitment to his/her puppies is lifelong and they will welcome hearing from you.</blockquote>


----------



## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> I'd hate for anyone to think that breeders in Australia are irresponsible - so just to clarify - there is a vaccination protocol here, it differs slightly from that in the US, and I'm sure it differs from many other countries, as we are all susceptible to different diseases of course, but there are requirements for vaccinations here, also, I don't believe any of the reputable breeders I have spoken to are not educated enough not to pass on the dangers of socialising a pup before it's fully vaccinated (although I'm sure there are plenty others out there who fit the bill).
> 
> I guess my point is - without wanting to cause any offense - there are other members here other than those in the US, and not everyone abides by the 'AMA' - I think each country has it's own 'best practice' and it may differ from that of the 'AMA' - and although I understand the majority of members here are from the US, please keep an open mind - the rest of the world isn't completely ignorant.
> 
> Whilst I do appreciate everyone's opinion here, and will continue to do so, I just wanted to point out that this is an international forum, and not all countries reference the AMA.[/B]


Well said Jac, I agree with you completely, when I came to the US to live I never dreamed we would become the proud parents of our little fluffbabies and I was also unaware of the differences in how things are done, but as I stated with Scooby, I just didn't know any different, but soon learned how things are done here in the US
My point with Koko is although we did go by the 12 week rule, we had and still have issues with his behaviour and adjusting that we never had with Scooby who came home at just over 7 weeks. 
I agree with you that in Aust. we do most things differently and yes the vaccinations do differ slightly, ie no Rabies, Lepto etc and puppies have usually had their first shots prior to going to their new homes and the rest are up to the new owners. 
When I brought my very first small breed puppy Alfred he was just 7 weeks old too and he did great, he is still living back there in Adelaide with my daughter and grandson, he is healthy and the best little friend for Jayme, we just couldn't separate them.


----------



## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

Please Please please don't let this start an argument, or let feelings get hurt. I really was just curious. I know that diffrent countries have diffrent rules/belifes. I know that there are alot of our fubabies out there that have come from all walks of life and left their mums at all diffrent stages of development. That are in perfect health. By no means was i saying that a pup purchaesed befor 12 weeks from whom ever is less then perfect. Both of mine were from mills, I knew that going in. I knew that Boo was going to have health problems, and when I picked up Dahlia after being abandoned at a vet clinic I knew i was gonna have alot of vet bills. I wouldnt trade them for any thing, not even a grand champion with royal blood as far back as 30 generations! None of us would. Would I purchase another with the same background? No. Would i deal with someone that was letting their pups go befor 12 weeks? No. Would I condem or look down on someone that has a BYB or Mill puppy? No. Would I encourage those that do buy a pup younger then 10 weeks from a breeder that sells them this young go into their purchase with the knowledge that you "really" don't know where your dog is comming from. More then likley. That you may have more health problems then you'd like, and no recorse to recoup your losses. The average BYB is not going to pay your vet bills, they are not going to cry with you when your pup is two and it is discovered to have a congential defect. I love all furbabies no matter where they come from and only wish the best to those special people that are owned by them. :wub:


----------



## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

> Please Please please don't let this start an argument, or let feelings get hurt. I really was just curious.[/B]


I certainly wouldn't become argumenative, nor offended, no problem there, I just wanted to point out how much I have learned from being a member of SM and also the difference between Scooby and Koko because I have one of each circumstance  
I wouldn't part with either of our boys either, they are our babies and we adore them both, even if Koko is a little stinker :HistericalSmiley: He does have a loving nature sometimes :wub: It's just that he is too busy creating mischief majority of the time and likes his space


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

What I think it boils down to is buying from a reputable breeder. In the US, a reputable breeder would not sell before 12-weeks. So when a poster, in the US, states they are picking up a 9-week-old pup, then they are not purchasing from a reputable breeder. And more than likely supporting a petstore, puppymill, or BYB.

Now in other countries, reputable breeders may sell at 9-weeks, so it's not a red flag. But if someone in that country purchased a pup at 6-weeks, you would then know it was a BYB, Petstore, or Puppymill. And not from a reputable breeder. That would be one of your red flags.

I'm not making sense, am I? :brownbag:


----------



## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

EXACTLY 3maltmom! That is Exactly what I was trying to say. You put things into words so well! Thankyou! :biggrin:


----------



## anouk (Nov 3, 2006)

I had Lizzie from what I consider a reputable breeder and I had her at 10 weeks.
She came with her first round of shots and a guide from her breeder on what to do and expect the first times. No microchipping because she was too small.
I remember asking the breeder if it was too early but she said that that was the common thing, so I went on.
I think every country has its own rules, e.g. we don't do rabies except when going abroad, there is no spaying/neuter contract and other small things.
Are we bad? Or just ignorant? I don't know, I think we are just different.


----------



## Tanner's Mom (May 27, 2005)

Tanner came from a BYB who was ready to give him to me at SIX weeks but I was going to be out of town so I got him at 7 wks. The poor little thing could barely walk. Then there's his liver problems. Researching that is how I found SM and what a learning experience this has been! Like a lot of people, I didn't know any better. But I do now, and I take every opportunity to educate people about buying from the newspaper (like I did), about the 12-wk rule. I find they're always surprised to hear these things, they think that's where you find a dog, that 6 weeks is OK cuz the baby is weaned isn't he? They don't know. But if I can save one little dog, then that's one that's been saved.


----------



## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

> Please Please please don't let this start an argument, or let feelings get hurt. I really was just curious. I know that diffrent countries have diffrent rules/belifes. I know that there are alot of our fubabies out there that have come from all walks of life and left their mums at all diffrent stages of development. That are in perfect health. By no means was i saying that a pup purchaesed befor 12 weeks from whom ever is less then perfect. Both of mine were from mills, I knew that going in. I knew that Boo was going to have health problems, and when I picked up Dahlia after being abandoned at a vet clinic I knew i was gonna have alot of vet bills. I wouldnt trade them for any thing, not even a grand champion with royal blood as far back as 30 generations! None of us would. Would I purchase another with the same background? No. Would i deal with someone that was letting their pups go befor 12 weeks? No. Would I condem or look down on someone that has a BYB or Mill puppy? No. Would I encourage those that do buy a pup younger then 10 weeks from a breeder that sells them this young go into their purchase with the knowledge that you "really" don't know where your dog is comming from. More then likley. That you may have more health problems then you'd like, and no recorse to recoup your losses. The average BYB is not going to pay your vet bills, they are not going to cry with you when your pup is two and it is discovered to have a congential defect. I love all furbabies no matter where they come from and only wish the best to those special people that are owned by them. :wub:[/B]


Ditto.


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> What I think it boils down to is buying from a reputable breeder. In the US, a reputable breeder would not sell before 12-weeks.[/B]


When I was looking for Shiloh I talked to 18 breeders. Of the 18, 2 are members of the AMA. When I asked why the others weren't, I got interesting answers that I won't get into here.

In the US, a reputable breeder would not sell before 12 weeks is the opinion of the AMA. Each consumer has the right to decide if ten weeks is too early and what a "reputable" breeder is. I am not saying I agree or disagree either way. I just don't understand the need to chastize others for choosing to purchase a dog at ten weeks old.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425351
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't noticed anyone chastising. We're just discussing the topic. 

Even if not a member of AMA, reputable breeders typically follow their recommendation. I just don't think a consumer has the experience with raising puppies to be as knowledgeable about when is the right time as the experienced membership of the AMA, which has the welfare of the puppy as its main concern.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425374
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said. No one was chastising anyone. This is not a discussion directed towards anyone, but rather a general discussion of reputable breeders vs. backyard breeders and pet stores. 

As Tabitha pointed out, she is seeing too many cases lately of breeders selling their Maltese puppies too young. It's obviously a subject we need to keep on discussing as it appears too many people are still unaware that here in the US, reputable breeders do not sell Maltese puppies before twelve weeks of age.

Any breeder who choses to violate the guidelines set forth by their breed organization, whether they are a member or not, should raise red flags for the prospective puppy buyer. There are many smaller show breeders here in the US who are not members of the AMA, but still follow the guidelines. So-called breeders who chose to ignore this important guideline raise red flags that she may be ignoring other very important guidelines set forth by the AMA.

As Sher said, the welfare of the puppy is the main concern of the AMA. Experts have found that toy breed puppies are at a higher risk for hypoglycemia before twelve weeks of age. Behaviorists know that puppies learn important lessons from their mom and siblings during those early weeks and to sell them before twelve weeks deprives them of some of these important lessons like bite inhibition. Other behaviorists feel that any trauma a puppy may experience during the Fear Imprint Period (8-11 weeks), like being separated from its mother or being shipped, can have life long effects.

Bottomline is that with a few rare exceptions, there is no good reason to sell a Maltese puppy before it is twelve weeks old. A breeder who does so, either is not knowledgable or is irresponsible.


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

Well it sounds like a reprimand of some kind when the post itself says why are certain members electing to purchase ten week old puppies.

If the behaviorists are correct then no puppy should be purchased before twelve weeks due to lack of bite inhibition. Everything I read and asked 4 local vets and an online vet forum about suggests the puppies learn everything they need to know from Mom much earlier than twelve weeks. Many dog moms want nothing to do with their pups after they are weaned.

As far as hypoglycemia, that is a potential in any breed while under two pounds. The vets I have spoken to said weight, not age, is the primary determining factor of when any breed should go to its new home. I chose to believe medical evidence and medical professionals over opinions. 

If some breeds could go home at 8 weeks others at 10 weeks and others not until 12 weeks wouldn't that be part of a vet's education and possibly even mandatory?

My point is-- it is all opinion and we are all entitled to those. I got Shiloh at eleven weeks and two days old so I guess I am one of those this post is referring to.


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> Well it sounds like a reprimand of some kind when the post itself says why are certain members electing to purchase ten week old puppies.
> 
> If the behaviorists are correct then no puppy should be purchased before twelve weeks due to lack of bite inhibition. Everything I read and asked 4 local vets and an online vet forum about suggests the puppies learn everything they need to know from Mom much earlier than twelve weeks. Many dog moms want nothing to do with their pups after they are weaned.
> 
> ...


My vet said that Toy Breeds age slower and live longer than large breeds. Therefore a 12-week-old Maltese, would be the mental, and physical, equivalent of an 8-week-old large breed. He actually does agree with the 8, 10, and 12-week rule.


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425461
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think your vet is probably very accurate on this and I wish it was mandatory so that we would never have to discuss it again. LOL My only question about this is isn't there a huge difference at twelve weeks between a maltese that will be lets say 4 pounds and a maltese that will be 7-8 pounds? I know they are both still considered a toy breed but thats a huge difference.


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425478
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, I agree. And I believe knowlegable breeders keep the "tinies" well beyond the 12-weeks, and wait until they have enough weight on them, so hypoglycemia won't be such a high risk.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425493
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think your vet is probably very accurate on this and I wish it was mandatory so that we would never have to discuss it again. LOL My only question about this is isn't there a huge difference at twelve weeks between a maltese that will be lets say 4 pounds and a maltese that will be 7-8 pounds? I know they are both still considered a toy breed but thats a huge difference.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh, I agree. And I believe knowlegable breeders keep the "tinies" well beyond the 12-weeks, and wait until they have enough weight on them, so hypoglycemia won't be such a high risk.
[/B][/QUOTE]

And remember, the AMA also requires breeders to bred to the standard which is 4-7 pounds, 4-6 pounds preferred, so a reputable breeder wouldn't intentionally breed puppies who will end up over seven pounds so that hypothesis wouldn't apply to responsible breeders anyway. 

Of course, from what 3Maltmom's vet said, weight isn't the issue anyway, but the fact that toy breds develop more slowly.


----------



## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

> Well it sounds like a reprimand of some kind when the post itself says why are certain members electing to purchase ten week old puppies.
> 
> If the behaviorists are correct then no puppy should be purchased before twelve weeks due to lack of bite inhibition. Everything I read and asked 4 local vets and an online vet forum about suggests the puppies learn everything they need to know from Mom much earlier than twelve weeks. Many dog moms want nothing to do with their pups after they are weaned.
> 
> ...


Im sorry if you took my post that way  . In no uncertin terms was I reprimanding anyone...( except bad breeders! :brownbag: )Im sorry to anybody that may have felt that way. I really wanted to know if something had changed with the guidlines for purchasing a maltese puppy. I realize this is an opinuion not fact of the general AMA, and set forth in their guidlines. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and i respect that. Please lets keep it friendly.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425461
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tabitha, I think you made it very clear that you were not pointing fingers at anyone. Unfortunately, there will always be some who will personalize a post that wasn't intended that way.

You asked a very relevant question and we've had a very good discussion on the subject IMO.

I enjoyed learning about the differences and similaries between US and Australian breeders.


----------



## kiki & pippin's mom (Jun 5, 2007)

I had read this opinion in other places as well, but had not found the 12 week Maltese rule until discovering this site after the fact. Anyway, with one of mine an _angel_ and the other from the _other place_ (not really!) I wonder. I sure hope they stay healthy…I _will_ be watching them like the _helicopter mom_ I've always been with my allergic skin kids! Anyway, one is Mary Poppins, the other Mary-Mary Quite Contrary!
Anyway, thanks for all the different ideas...they make the world so much more interesting! :grouphug:


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> I had read this opinion in other places as well, but had not found the 12 week Maltese rule until discovering this site after the fact. Anyway, with one of mine an _angel_ and the other from the _other place_ (not really!) I wonder. I sure hope they stay healthy…I _will_ be watching them like the _helicopter mom_ I've always been with my allergic skin kids! Anyway, one is Mary Poppins, the other Mary-Mary Quite Contrary!
> Anyway, thanks for all the different ideas...they make the world so much more interesting! :grouphug: [/B]


I know you mentioned when you first joined that you got your puppies from a co-worker who was a first time breeder. That probably explains why she let them go at only eight weeks. I'm sure she didn't know any better.

Do you know if she is planning on breeding again? Perhaps you can download a copy of this article from Foxstone Maltese and give her the link to the American Maltese Association so she will know to keep her next litter until they are older.

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm

You were lucky you didn't have any problems with hypoglycemia, but I'm sure the fact that your puppies were already over two pounds at only eight weeks probably made the difference. 

That's why it's so important to keep discussing the "Twelve Week Rule" on forums like this. Too many breeders and prospective puppy owners still aren't aware of it.

Also, good for you for planning on spaying your girls! :aktion033:


----------



## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

With this topic going on and on I got curious of the exact def. of reputable and googled it. I know google maintains your interest and comes back with relevent info and Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder popped up. I think this is off of a Boxer website but it was quiet insteresting. I think all the info can pertain to Malts also except the age and tail & declawing. 

Here is the website the chart doesn't copy over correctly.

http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html




A Few Guidlines for Selecting a Boxer Breeder
1. A reputable breeder will not breed dogs under the age of 2. 1. A reputable boxer breeder will conduct (and can provide proof of) the following genetic health tests on their breeding animals and will require them of the sire (father) should they "hire" a stud dog for the litter:

Holter monitor test yearly
Full thyroid panel yearly
OFA (for hip displasia), a one time deal done at or after age 2

Beware of breeders who scoff at genetic testing and say their particular breed/line is problem-free.

2. A reputable breeder requires that "pet-quality" animals be spayed or neutered and sells them on Limited Registration. Be wary of breeders who do not mention altering.

3. A reputable breeder provides a written contract with the sale of the pup. This will vary from breeder to breeder, but usually spells out the rights of the seller and buyer, health information, genetic health guarantees (should be at least 2 years), required altering and buy-back/return policy.

4. A reputable breeder typically has a waiting list for the unborn puppies and does not advertise in the newspaper classifieds.

5. A reputable breeder shows passion, love, and tremendous knowledge about the breed. He or she cares about placing puppies in excellent homes and will often interview potential buyers thoroughly, will make referrals to the local boxer rescue group, ask for references and will refuse to sell a dog if the home is not appropriate for the breed or for a puppy.

6. A reputable breeder recommends the local boxer rescue organization to potential homes. Explaining that these dogs make wonderful family pets and companions. 

7. A reputable breeder will hold on to puppies as long as it takes to place them in the right homes and will continue to recommend rescue even though they have puppies available.

8. The environment (typically a home) in which the breeder keeps the dogs should be clean and well-maintained. Do not agree to meet the breeder off site. TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS ON THIS!

9. A reputable breeder is actively involved in the dog fancy, including showing and/or breed clubs. While there are exceptions--a retired individual who has shown dogs for 20 years--a person who is not involved with others in the breed can be suspect.

10. A reputable breeder is willing to provide answers to questions you may have and is willing to provide names of others who have purchased pups from them.

11. A reputable breeder will allow you to meet the puppies parents if available and, if the father isn't available, they will show you pictures and provide you with the information on how to contact the owner of the sire(father).

12. A reputable breeder follows up on puppies. He or she is interested in how the pups develop physically and mentally, difficulties in the owner/dog relationship and health problems.

13. A reputable breeder will not let puppies leave their home prior to 8 weeks of age and often not until 10 weeks of age.

14. Tails and dew claws should have been removed from the puppies by 3 days old.


----------



## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

> As far as hypoglycemia, that is a potential in any breed while under two pounds. The vets I have spoken to said weight, not age, is the primary determining factor of when any breed should go to its new home. I chose to believe medical evidence and medical professionals over opinions.
> 
> If some breeds could go home at 8 weeks others at 10 weeks and others not until 12 weeks wouldn't that be part of a vet's education and possibly even mandatory?[/B]


 :aktion033: :thumbsup:


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425461
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does anyone honestly believe that backyard breeders and puppy millers are going to spend the money to have each puppy individually evaluated by a vet for its suitabilty to leave its mother before the breed club's recommendations? 

What is the rush to sell these puppies before twelve weeks that would require a vet's evaluation anyway?

I look at the twelve week rule like a speed limit. It's a guideline based upon research and study by experts to whose purpose is to protect the majority from harm. Sure, there will always be posters who say that they got their puppy at nine weeks and had no problem just as there are people who can brag that they went 70mph in a 55mph speed zone and didn't get in an accident.

Bottomline is that the AMA didn't establish the twelve week rule to be mean to breeders or make puppy buyers wait too long to bring their puppy home. They did it because in most cases, it is safest and in the best interest of a Maltese puppy to stay with his mother until he is at least twelve weeks old.


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425833
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats not what I meant at all. What I meant was if the 8(large breed)-10(medium breed)-12 week(small breed) rule was held as the only accepted rule of thumb in veterinary school and by current vets, like 3MaltMom's vet told her, it could possibly be enforced, in time, as mandatory by law. A start would be to make it a requirement by the AKC organization itself. That would weed out alot of the neer do wells that still get AKC registration.

While I respect the AMA for what it believes in and its collective experience, someone playing the devils advocate could say they have the twelve week rule to be elitist- they had to incorporate something to make themselves separate from the crowd. (I am just creating an example) In order to support their opinions so that there is no such argument, they need concrete medical backing or support via medical professionals and vets deeming it mandatory and necessary to hold a puppy until the appropriate age.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

Nemo was from a petstore and I got him at 10 weeks (which I don't think is a bad age to get a pup, but thats another story) anyway people fail to remember when you buy from a petstore , yes Nemo was 10 weeks , but what about when he left Missouri and was shipped all the way to New York  I got him at 10 weeks , but I am sure he left his mom around 7 maybe 8 weeks and I really think thats to young, period.. I know of people I MEAN SMART EDUCATED PEOPLE WHO THINK 8 WEEKS IS FINE, I mean to each his own , but for me I feel that is way to young. My next one (Whenever that will be) will come from a responsible breeder and will be well worth the wait. I think if one of those responsible breeders were to let one go at 10 weeks I would still be okay with it (Not that they would I'm just saying) cause you know the puppy was with the mom for the 10 weeks not like Nemo coming to me at 10 weeks but for sure leaving his mom much earlier..
I don't know if I made sense I'm tired, but I am sure you all know what I mean, I hope anyway :biggrin: 
ANDREA


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425867
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does anyone honestly believe that backyard breeders and puppy millers are going to spend the money to have each puppy individually evaluated by a vet for its suitabilty to leave its mother before the breed club's recommendations? 





[/B][/QUOTE]

Thats not what I meant at all. What I meant was if the 8(large breed)-10(medium breed)-12 week(small breed) rule was held as the only accepted rule of thumb in veterinary school and by current vets, like 3MaltMom's vet told her, it could possibly be enforced, in time, as mandatory by law. A start would be to make it a requirement by the AKC organization itself. That would weed out alot of the neer do wells that still get AKC registration.

While I respect the AMA for what it believes in and its collective experience, someone playing the devils advocate could say they have the twelve week rule to be elitist- they had to incorporate something to make themselves separate from the crowd. (I am just creating an example) In order to support their opinions so that there is no such argument, they need concrete medical backing or support via medical professionals and vets deeming it mandatory and necessary to hold a puppy until the appropriate age.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I guess I'm just not understanding your whole premise.

For one, the AKC is just a registry. There are many "alternative" registries to the AKC since the AKC tightened its requirements and started requiring DNA testing. Those other registries are the ones most often used by byb's and puppy mills, the very people who will sell a Maltese puppy too early. Even if the AKC imposed breed specific age requirements, it wouldn't affect the very breeders who need to be targeted.

The breed club is the proper organization to establish guidelines specific to a breed. Ethical and knowledgable breeders willingly follow the guidelines set forth by their breed organization, whether it be the proper age to sell a puppy, or the standard itself.

I just don't see ethical breeders "arguing" with the AMA about the twelve week rule so I don't understand why the AMA should need "concrete medical backing" to prove it's "mandatory and necessary" to hold a puppy until it's twelve weeks old. A Maltese breeder may keep a puppy as long as she feels necessary. Many times that age is well beyond twelve weeks in cases where the puppy is especially tiny or because it is being watched for a show propect.

Again, I don't see any compelling argument against keeping a Maltese puppy with its mother and siblings until it is at least twelve weeks old. Ethical breeders want what is best for their puppies and the breed organization's expert opinion is that for health and behavioral reasons, Maltese puppies are better off staying with their mothers until they are twelve weeks old.

The only arguments I ever hear against keeping Maltese puppies until twelve weeks old come from byb's and puppy millers or the people who have gotten puppies from them and feel that they have to defend their actions after the fact.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Does anyone honestly believe that backyard breeders and puppy millers are going to spend the money to have each puppy individually evaluated by a vet for its suitabilty to leave its mother before the breed club's recommendations?
> 
> What is the rush to sell these puppies before twelve weeks that would require a vet's evaluation anyway?
> 
> ...


Marj, I haven't had a chance to thoroughly read everything in this thread yet but I have to say that this post is one of the best I've seen regarding the 12-week rule.


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> Nemo was from a petstore and I got him at 10 weeks (which I don't think is a bad age to get a pup, but thats another story) anyway people fail to remember when you buy from a petstore , yes Nemo was 10 weeks , but what about when he left Missouri and was shipped all the way to New York  I got him at 10 weeks , but I am sure he left his mom around 7 maybe 8 weeks and I really think thats to young, period.. I know of people I MEAN SMART EDUCATED PEOPLE WHO THINK 8 WEEKS IS FINE, I mean to each his own , but for me I feel that is way to young. My next one (Whenever that will be) will come from a responsible breeder and will be well worth the wait. I think if one of those responsible breeders were to let one go at 10 weeks I would still be okay with it (Not that they would I'm just saying) cause you know the puppy was with the mom for the 10 weeks not like Nemo coming to me at 10 weeks but for sure leaving his mom much earlier..
> I don't know if I made sense I'm tired, but I am sure you all know what I mean, I hope anyway :biggrin:
> ANDREA[/B]


Its perfectly OK for us to not agree on this point. I just happen to believe I'd rather hear all canine medical professionals saying and requiring it as opposed to a group of breeders or the AMA saying it. To me, its what makes the difference between an opinion and a fact. There are alot of doubting Thomases out there. In the mind of most people, medical evidence and medical experts have more of right to make those kind of determinations. It would carry a lot more weight. JMO.


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

I am replying to Lady'sMom on this not Andrea- sorry for the wrong quote-it gets confusing...lol


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425952
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No I don't disagree with you I think you make very valid points, both sides do.
Im just saying in my case Nemo was like 7 or 8 weeks that I feel is so young..
I like reading all the different view points and I don't really agree ir disagree with anyone..
ANDREA :biggrin:
SHEWWWWWWWWW what a relief wrong quote..LOL


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> My next one (Whenever that will be) will come from a responsible breeder and will be well worth the wait. I think if one of those responsible breeders were to let one go at 10 weeks I would still be okay with it (Not that they would I'm just saying) cause you know the puppy was with the mom for the 10 weeks not like Nemo coming to me at 10 weeks but for sure leaving his mom much earlier..
> I don't know if I made sense I'm tired, but I am sure you all know what I mean, I hope anyway :biggrin:
> ANDREA[/B]


I completely agree that ten weeks old is probably acceptable too. Thats the reason I posted at all to this thread. The problem with that, is it my opinion, or an opinion that we share. I would rather have medical experts making that determination rather than me, you or the breeder...lol


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

> While I respect the AMA for what it believes in and its collective experience, someone playing the devils advocate could say they have the twelve week rule to be elitist- they had to incorporate something to make themselves separate from the crowd. (I am just creating an example) In order to support their opinions so that there is no such argument, they need concrete medical backing or support via medical professionals and vets deeming it mandatory and necessary to hold a puppy until the appropriate age.[/B]


Well said :aktion033: 
Is the AMA the absolute authority? 

So it's an AMA recommendation. It's a "rule" - is it a legal requirement?

Is it even conceivable to think that some breeders only hold their pups until 12 weeks to evaluate if they are show worthy?


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I sort of find it amazing that some are so critical of the 12-week rule. The AMA is supposedly made up of responsible, experienced breeders of Maltese. In their experience they obviously have found that 12 weeks is the most appropriate time for a puppy to go to its new owner. In all due respect to vets I do think that experienced breeders of a particular breed might be better able to determine when its the best time rather than a vet. The vet I planned to go to when I got my first Malt, Rosebud, said 7-8 weeks was fine. He was the "breeder's" vet. 

I'm not sure what we hope to accomplish in this thread at this point. Some apparently think the 12-week rule shouldn't be in place and no amount of logic and information is going to change their minds.


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

I really don't have, all that much faith, in many vet's opinions. I've been through far too many whose opinions, and treatments, were not in the best interest of my Maltese. After all, how many vet's recommend Science Diet? Diet and nutrition is of the utmost importance, yet is overlooked by many vets. Through our own research, and discussions, we, as pet owners have realized this importance through the years.

I may be mistaken, but I believe the states vary, by law, at the time a puppy can be sold. Seems most were 8-weeks, but a few were 6 and 7-weeks. Once again, I may be wrong. In any case, I do not like setting every breed into a single category. I, as well as my vet, believe each breed has different needs, as well as indivdual needs.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Shiloh, I guess I am realy dense, but I still don't understand your premise.

Are you suggesting that the AMA operates as some sort of rogue group exclusive of veterinary science? I assure you that is not the case. For example, in 1994 the late Marjorie Martin bequeathed approximately $300,000 to the _Ohio State
University College of Veterinary Medicine_ to be used to research and improve the health of Maltese. If you notice, hypoglycemia was one of the specific areas to be studied.

The Marjorie C. Martin/American Maltese Association Paladin
Veterinary Research Fund was established with gifts totaling
$175,317 from the estate of Marjorie C. Martin. Martin, who
lived in Columbus, was a breeder and raiser of championship
Maltese dogs including a dog named Paladin. Martin left the bulk
of her estate to fund research. Additional monies for the
endowment will come from upcoming sales of parcels of real estate
that she owned in Columbus.
Income from the endowment will be used for veterinary
research into diseases, defects, injuries and treatment of
Maltese dogs and related toy breeds. Toy breeds are those in
which a typical adult animal weighs 7 pounds or less. Particular
emphasis, at least initially, is to be given to problems of
reproduction, hypoglycemia, risks of surgery, and use of
anesthetics.
Use of funds and research performed are to be reported
annually to the American Maltese Association.

http://www.osu.edu/osu/newsrel/Archive/94-..._Personnel,_Etc.

Marjorie C. Martin/American Maltese Association Paladin
Veterinary Research Fund

Maltese and other toy dog breeds will benefit from an
estimated $300,000 gift from Marjorie C. Martin. The former
Columbus Public Schools libriarian and dog breeder willed that
her estate be used to fund research on the various health
problems of the dogs.

Martin bred, showed and wrote about Maltese dogs, a toy
spaniel with long, silky, white hair. She produced more than 40
champions, was active in the American Maltese Association, and
authored many articles for various canine publications. She died
in January 1993 at age 59, following heart surgery.

"We expect to make many great discoveries over the next few
years with this money," Hoffiss said. "The Martin and Heldt
gifts will really help the college. In these tight financial
times, money is hard to come by and badly needed to both educate
students and to further new knowledge."

http://www.osu.edu/osu/newsrel/Archive/94-...s_Inspire_Gifts

Or are you suggesting that since you say "me, you and the breeder" shouldn't be making this decision, that a prospective puppy buyer should bring along their vet to evaluate at what age the puppy should leave it's mother? Most people take their puppy to the vet after the fact like I assume you did when you got Shiloh at ten weeks. What if your vet said a puppy was too young to leave it's mother? So many puppies are shipped or come from great distances, it's not very feasable to send them back.  

Again, would someone please explain to me why we are even debating the so-called twelve week rule when ethical breeders are perfectly comfortable with it? Can anyone make a compelling argument against keeping them until twelve weeks old?


----------



## kiki & pippin's mom (Jun 5, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425683
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Warning: I get off topic....Well, I've mentioned several times that I am having the girls spayed, and yet I always seem to get applause.  Anyway, yes, the gal used to work in my office, but her mother was the actual 'breeder', and she felt that childbirth was way too hard on the delicate mother. They also thought the puppies were exhausting her :smheat: (she would cry, wanting to get out of their living room enclosure and away from her little hoodlums), and that the sooner they were safely in good homes, the better it would be for the mom. I'm sure they will never let her 'breed' again. We did not choose the smallest of the puppies, as I have raised farm animals, and was taught that runts often have problems. (She was very cute though, but also very aggressive with her littermates) :blush: BTW many cultures don't believe in 'fixing' what aint broke, if you get my drift...and many of _our_ guys, if asked in confidence, would say that our dogs should be allowed to live a normal life, free to enjoy the wonders of their masculinity....Ah…. :hump: I personally don't want to raise any more animals...(I've raised a colt, sheep, rabbits, parakeets and fish...well, actually, they did all the work...but I'm _DONE_ and so of course my girls will be spayed!)
About size: I've never understood the desire to have a tiny dog of any breed...too delicate, too easy to hurt themselves! One of my college professors was a show breeder of mini grey hounds, and one of hers climbed up on the back of the leather chair and jumped off, breaking it's leg! :smcry: Thank God they were able to save her, and the leg healed well. But OMG, I couldn't bear the thought of one of my babies getting hurt by just being a dog! They didn't ask to be bred tiny! I have this memory of that little dog hobbling around the house in it's big 'ol cast!
About Hypoglycemia: wouldn't free feeding help stave off/prevent hypoglycemia? Waking puppies in the middle of the night for feedings? I spent many a long night eye dropper feeding baby bunnies in my youth, when there were complications during birth, or the doe would not feed... I know _I_ appreciate a late night nosh..... :chili: 
Well, thanks for reading...I really do love this site, and all you guys are so colorful and fun and informative!


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

The fact is not too long ago even reputable/ethical breeders did sell their
pet pups at 10 wks, but with the advent of the new innoculations schedule
(i.e. Dr. Jean Dodds) and fear/flight information (from 6-9 wks) it has become evident that 10 weeks is a bit too young. I think, for some, this info has not
quite been understood or accepted by some. Perhaps some don't even know of the newer findings of early vaccination, etc. Here is a site with info.
We've posted it before but it never hurts to post again.
Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs


----------



## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

> The fact is not too long ago even reputable/ethical breeders did sell their
> pet pups at 10 wks, but with the advent of the new innoculations schedule
> (i.e. Dr. Jean Dodds) and fear/flight information (from 6-9 wks) it has become evident that 10 weeks is a bit too young. I think, for some, this info has not
> quite been understood or accepted by some. Perhaps some don't even know of the newer findings of early vaccination, etc. Here is a site with info.
> ...



After reviewing that site, I was just curious (this is WAY off topic) why they don't recommend giving Bordetella? I am going tomorrow fox Jax to get this, because he is in Puppy Training class, and the place is also a "day care". What are the side effects that would make it not recommended???

Thanks.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=426090
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I went away last year Nemo had the shot and he was fine. I don't board him so this year he didn't get it..
ANDREA


----------



## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> Shiloh, I guess I am realy dense, but I still don't understand your premise.
> 
> Are you suggesting that the AMA operates as some sort of rogue group exclusive of veterinary science? I assure you that is not the case. For example, in 1994 the late Marjorie Martin bequeathed approximately $300,000 to the _Ohio State
> University College of Veterinary Medicine_ to be used to research and improve the health of Maltese. If you notice, hypoglycemia was one of the specific areas to be studied.
> ...


The fact that Marjorie donated money and studies were conducted is great however that was 13 years ago. The only reason I am debating it is because the 12 week rule, as of now, is an opinion not a proven medical fact. I did not get Shiloh at ten weeks I got him at 11 weeks and 2 days as I mentioned previously. I pretty much agree with the twelve week rule but since its all opinion I don't think others should be questioned or have to defend to SM why they got a pup at ten weeks old. What you or I believe is not what everyone else believes or HAS to believe.


----------



## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I'm still confused on this issue too. I completely understand the health reasons for the puppy staying with his/her mommy until twelve weeks. However, almost all the training books and internet articles I read prior to bringing Karli home said for socialization and training purposes, it is best that the puppy learn from you. After twelve weeks the socialization period is over. I think it would be interesting to do some official research on this topic.


Addendum: Just Google puppy/socialization and you'll see what I'm referring to.


----------



## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

When I took Jax in for his first visit at the vet, the vet told me that he was still too young to be scared (he was 13 weeks) and to make sure I socialize him, but keep him safe all at the same time. He said it would be a little while until the fear kicks in so we want him to be introduced to as much as possible before that happened. And I don't think their socialization process is ever over.

As for knowing when a puppy is ready to leave his mom and littermates, I have no idea, I'll leave that decision up to the people who have bred Maltese puppies for years and years, I'm sure they are better at making that decision than I am!


----------



## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

UMMMMM :huh: :huh: not sure how this got to be so a....hmmmm ok i don't have any thing to say :huh: :biggrin:
Except Thanks to all for their opinions, their just like [email protected]# holes, every ones got one and most of them stink..LOL. 
No really I have learned a thing or two while I watched this thread grow, but im still stuck at my original opinion and that is any breeder that sells a maltese pup under 12 weeks ( in some cases 10 is ok) stinks. JMO. :biggrin:


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=426036
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, now I'm even more confused since you said in previous posts that you got Shiloh when he was ten weeks old.

I have had Shiloh for two weeks today. He was 12 weeks old last Friday. 7/30

I forgot to mention I got Shiloh at ten weeks also and he is fine with his crate schedule. 8/4

Hello everyone. I have my very first maltese Shiloh for almost 3 weeks a now. He has been a joy from day one , is allready house trained, very smart and a little on the independent side. Mu husband and I just adore him . He is all boy and loves to play for the greater part of the day. He also follows me wherever I go in the house and must be in the same room. He is 13 weeks old. 8/3

Whatever age you got Shiloh, though, it really doesn't matter to this discussion. Again, no one is asking members to defend their personal decision to get a puppy before the recommended twelve week age.

The original question Lil Boo Boo asked was why we were seeing so many puppies being sold before twelve weeks and if the recommendation by the AMA had changed. Clearly, the answer to her question is that breeders who sell puppies before twelve weeks old are in violation of the AMA's Code of Ethics because their recommendation has not changed. Responsible breeders follow the guidelines set forth by the AMA.

As Brit pointed out, the age was actually pushed up to 12 weeks because of the new vaccination protocol that has been adopted by 27 vet schools and new understanding of the Fear/Flight period between 6-9 weeks. In addition, a traumatic event such as being separated from its mother and/or being shipped during the Fear Imprint Period between 8-11 weeks supports waiting until twelve weeks. Again, responsible breeders put the well being of their puppies first and foremost.

Can anyone make a fact based argument why the AMA should lower their guidelines to ten weeks instead of twelve? If not, I think we've more than answered the OP's question and should move on.


----------



## jacksonsmomma (Aug 23, 2007)

> With this topic going on and on I got curious of the exact def. of reputable and googled it. I know google maintains your interest and comes back with relevent info and Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder popped up. I think this is off of a Boxer website but it was quiet insteresting. I think all the info can pertain to Malts also except the age and tail & declawing.
> 
> Here is the website the chart doesn't copy over correctly.
> 
> ...


As a new owner I just wanted an opportunity to respond. I truly do not intend to rehash old arguments - but going on the belief that this forum is for information (to inform) hopefully my opinions are valuable to this community. 

I am a first time owner of a dog. I have had kittens - plenty of them that have grown into happy healthy cats as well as helped others take care of their animals. I have never been a fan of "big" dogs ( I actually have a slight fear of them - grew up in the country where dogs would often roam free with out leashes and have been chased by many a big dog in my childhood - lol!) but have always had a particular soft spot for pets. I didn't go into having a maltese because of the whole "accessory" trend or whatever - and had actually (I felt at the time) done plenty of research - read TONS of books and spoke to many breeders as well as many owners. I knew that I didn't know it all - but I felt darn confident when I finally decided that given my lifestyle - a Maltese would be the perfect dog for my family and I. I have no children - by the way - and realized not very long ago that the likelihood that I would have any "human" babies was nil. Jackson is not "like" my son - I consider him to BE my son. 

As many of you know (if you saw my introduction) I got Jackson a bit shy of 8 weeks from a breeder 3 days ago. My breeder has a partner who owns many dogs - trains as well as shows. I met Jackson who is the son of my owner's 2 children. She does not advertise in the newspaper - or the internet. She did however have a small ad in a magazine under Breeders. I called her as well as 4 other breeders in my area. I eliminated all the numbers that I found who said they would "ship" - including one breeder who told me she would be in the area around the time I was thinking of "adopting" my son. It just FELT funny to me. I elimated another who sounded gruff - almost angry on the phone - who assured me that her puppies were "happy" but for the life of me I couldn't imagine how given her disposition on the phone. I didn't even go to see her to give her a chance of changing my mind. I spoke to another who sold to "stars" - and boasted about how her 2500.00 babies were bought by Sharon Osborne and whoever else. (I live near Hollywood so this might have appealed to another buyer - but didn't appeal to me). I spoke to my breeder on the phone for weeks before I met my son. She answered every question I had - and asked me twice as many. She sent me pictures - gave me references - and given my schedule denied me an opportunity of one of the babies she had because the baby was much too fragile (smaller) and would require more care from me than I could give. I understood and waited for the chance of another baby. I was OVERLY eager to get my son - my breeder as well as her Doctor both informed me that Jackson would need another set of shots before he would be ready to go - that I would need to be patient and given the recommendation by her Vet as well as her own observations of how the baby was getting along - she would call me and make an appointment for the two of us to meet. I waited. In the meantime - my breeder gave me emails and information about the things I would need to purchase in order to prepare for my son to come home. Nutritional supplements to give him as he was more susceptible to low blood sugar, a recommended diet, the proper toys that would help him with teething and playing and boredom, the babygates, size of collar - rules to follow when handling him and letting others handle him - just all types of tips and such. Whenever I had a question she would either send me a follow up email or call me directly. She never made me think I was taking up her time or bothering her with unnecessary questions ... anything like that. I knew from the minute that we talked that this woman LOVED her puppies. People may think otherwise - and they are entitled to their opinion - but having spoken to her for over a month - and having met her and observed the way she is with her puppies... love is almost an understatement to the affection she holds for her puppies and her own puppies. 

The day I went to visit Jackson at her home I met both his parents - I saw the area that she kept her puppies (her bathroom with a babygate, piddle pads, etc.) - I saw her home and observed her with the puppies. She encouraged me to watch Jackson and his sibbling and they way he was with his parents. We were allowed to stay as late as we needed in order to play with the puppies - and when I had decided on Jackson - she went over every inch of the paperwork with me. She offered not only everything I had read a breeder SHOULD offer - but also her number - pager - opportunities for me to call her with any and every question I had. She handed me written documentation on low blood sugar (I know there is a term for it - but I don't want to butcher the spelling - forgive me). Along with all the documentation, paperwork and the like - she also handed me a bag filled with a sample of all the things I needed - even a product for tearing stains. She had taken the time to give me instructions on what I needed to look for if my puppy was in danger as well as a few recommendations for vets in our area. She gave me a 2 year guarantee on the health of my puppy - 1 year more than MOST of the breeders I had spoken to. She helped me fill out the AKC paperwork on the spot - which also will give me 2 months free health insurance - and told me the importance of getting insurance for my son. 

When it was time for me to leave - I looked at her and thanked her for loving Jackson. When she handed him over to me - after rubbing his belly and kissing his little head - again there was no doubt in my mind that she cared for him. "Love him and spoil him - that will make me happy" she said with a smile - and "send me pictures of him often - I love to see how the babies are doing." 

I've no doubt in my mind that this breeder and I will be forever linked - and as a child who has been adopted - separated from Mother - found a place with another Mother - and gone thru that whole transition - it warms my heart that someone would be so attached to a puppy child and want to be connected even after the initial "sale" of puppy child. 

Now - I have stated before that I wish I would have thought to have her keep Jackson for another 4 weeks - and then adopted him at that time - but I have to ask myself why I feel that way. I think I have gotten overwhelming mixed reviews about the appropriate age - and being a person who would rather follow the "general" rule than to "buck" the system - maybe I'd go ahead next time and do so. I don't have anything to compare Jackson to right now. I know that he is pad trained - responds well to his name already and cries rarely (right now it's if I set him inside of his "pen" (a part of the kitchen with a gate up) and don't immediately pick him up or play with him at the very second he requests it...or during the ride to the vet this morning for his wellness appointment (he passed with flying colors by the way... yay Jack!). I know that he has a healthy appetite and enjoys his food and dry kibble which is made available to him all the time right now (I feed him wet food mixture made by adding warm water to his kibble 4-6 times a day), and that he already sleeps thru the night in his crate by my bedside - pees and poops immediately after leaving it - and bounces around to the amusement of all who witness it. Does the fact that my breeder sold him earlier than what a specific group recommends mean that all her other breeding expertise - the way she treated me and Jackson - goes on out the window? I don't particularily think that that is fair. But I'll ask her why she doesn't go along with the recommendation. I'm sure she'll give me an honest answer and not just one that I want to hear. I trust her. That's why I went with her. I trusted her expertise... that's why I picked her. I trusted my judgement and her character. 

Anyways - just my feelings - excuse the length - I just wanted to say it once - explain my actions - describe my experience. I felt a bit of shock at the age during my introduction and I just didn't feel it was the right place to explain myself or go into depth. I considered my introduction a type of birthday party for Jackson. While everyone has a right to their opinion - I just felt that a thread celebrating his joining my family was not the place for me to go on and on about my feelings on his breeder - my defense of my decision - my questions about the "standard" age - or my explanation. 

Thanks for giving me a moment (or 10 lol) to express it here. 

puppy licks and much respect, 

Jackson & Kari


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=425773
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not going to get into this or that, I just wanted to tell you I love your post and it's plain to see how much you love your baby, it warms my heart to hear the way you speak of him.
Thank you for your honesty and your heart-felt words.
I wish you and Jackson many many years of happiness and memories that will always be looked upon as happy
All The Best,
ANDREA :grouphug:


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Jackson's Mom, thank you for sharing your story. 

As Lil Boo Boo has said, though, her post was not intended to put members who got their puppies younger than twleve weeks on the defensive and make them feel they had to defend their decision. She simply commented that she's noticed more and more people buying puppies under twelve weeks and asked if the AMA had changed their guidelines.

As you say, one of the purposes of this forum is to inform. Discussing the merits of the so-called twelve week rule is meant to make people aware of the rule and the rationale behind it, not chastise someone after the fact. 

I think the OP's original question has more than been answered. Lil Boo Boo has thanked everyone for their opinions.

Can we just move on before more people feel they need to defend their decision and feelings get hurt? :grouphug:


----------

