# Where you get your dog DOES matter! Why?



## hoaloha

These are my general thoughts that I've had for the past few months especially. It is a general statement from my observations and not pointed toward any individual.

First off, I have learned SO much from this invaluable forum. I was the proud owner/parent of a beautiful maltese-poodle puppy from a "home breeder" aka Backyard Breeder (BYB ). He came to us at 8 weeks old and died suddenly at 8 months old. It was the most terrible pain I have felt as well as thousands of dollars into his critical end-of-life care. I came to this forum a few years ago in search of more information and, to my horror and deep regret, I realized I had supported these greedy-profit oriented Backyard Breeders who do NOTHING to improve the quality of maltese (or any other breed for the matter). I am very passionate about looking at the BIG PICTURE and standing up for the voiceless dogs and standing against those who think that they have the right to breed their dogs for profit.

Some people fall into impulse buys, thinking "this feels right! The puppy is adorable and I can "save" it!" You may be the BEST dog owner filled with love, but that doesn't change the fact that you've put money in the pockets of greedy breeders and gives them MORE reason to continue to exploit their dogs that are not up to ANY standard for health, conformation (structure), and temperament which makes us love purebred dogs in the first place. This is what ethical show breeders strive for- making each generation of maltese healthier and structurally sound.

*The fact of the matter is that it DOES make a difference where your dog is from in the grand scheme of things. * It also matters that we humans make the RIGHT choice to shutdown BYB's and Puppymills. If there is no demand, the supply must decrease.

As far as this forum goes, I have love for all of our dogs despite their origins. It's not where you got your dog from necessarily, but it is WHAT YOU CHOOSE AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN EDUCATED. I refuse to sit back and let BYB supporters take over. We need an SM mission statement really stating how most of us here feel- WE SUPPORT REPUTABLE, ETHICAL SHOW BREEDERS AND RESCUE ORGANIZATIONS ONLY. 

I am sincere when I say I love seeing and reading all about all our dogs (it's not the puppies' or dogs' fault that they were born from a crappy situation), but I will not condone people's poor choices after they already have been educated. Rise above and make good choices from here on out.


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## Fluffdoll

Awesome post Marisa! Thanks for sharing your experience so that other's may know the consequences of byb as well as puppy mills. People think that just because they saw a puppy being born, and have seen their litter-mates that it's okay and trustworthy. Like I said in a previous post, the information is given, in the end it's up to each person to decide whether they should follow it or not. And if God-forbid anything happens to these people's puppy, they will always know that they were already warned...


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## StevieB

Amen Sister! If there was a foam finger emoticon I'd be waving it right now! (Not the Miley Cyrus way)



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## Katkoota

Personally, Reputable breeders or rescues/shelters will be my two options for future pups :thumbsup:


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## pammy4501

Thank you for starting this thread Marisa. As you and many others know here, my first malt was from a back yard breeder situation. She was very nice, and had the dogs in her house. I truly thought I had done well because it wasn't a pet store. Everything felt right about getting her, and she was the most adorable puppy in my eyes. But alas, my darling Lola had problem after problem as a result of her poor breeding. After two years of struggling to keep her alive after she contracted GME, I had to let her go. It was extremely costly both emotionally and financially. 

But I took this sad situation, and educated myself. I vowed to never again support anyone breeding dogs for profit and not the betterment of the breed. I believe in this so strongly it's hard to put it to words. I have tried to make something positive out of my loss. Together here on SM we have learned about GME, supported GME research by collecting DNA samples of our dogs for the study and shared the information with everyone in hopes of preventing anyone else from having to lose a dog this way.
.
SM has never supported BYB's or puppy mills. This recent shift here, of seeming acceptance of this is alarming to me. We have never been "mean" to anyone seeking support or knowledge. And for that matter, to be labeled as mean for having strong core beliefs, and standing by them is alarming as well.

I too support writing a SM Mission Statement. Let's do it!


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## eiksaa

pammy4501 said:


> SM has never supported BYB's or puppy mills. This recent shift here, of seeming acceptance of this is alarming to me. We have never been "mean" to anyone seeking support or knowledge. *And for that matter, to be labeled as mean for having strong core beliefs, and standing by them is alarming as well*.
> 
> I too support writing a SM Mission Statement. Let's do it!


Agreed, Pam. 

Marisa, I agree with everything you say here. Thanks for posting this. Sadly, at this point I am not feeling too optimistic. 

Let's come up with the mission statement. Some of us will actually agree, some of us will give lip service to the idea and then do the exact opposite. Clearly, we are not unanimous in saying buying from BYB is not OK. Everyone likes the idea in theory, but when it comes to actually doing it people care more about being nice than worrying about animal abuse.

And then, what next? What do we do when this happens again? I know for a fact the person who recently bought from a BYB claimed today they will be buying from a similar breeder again in the future. But hey, let's all be nice so we don't offend anyone. I have nothing nice to say about BYBs, so I guess according to the forum rules I will just need to shut up when this happens next time.

Not trying to be facetious here. This is my appeal to members here so we can come up with a plan of action. Thanks for getting the wheels turning on this. So SM, let's brainstorm, what can we do? Come up with a mission statement and take turns to bump it every few days? Again, I am very serious.


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## Fluffdoll

pammy4501 said:


> Thank you for starting this thread Marisa. As you and many others know here, my first malt was from a back yard breeder situation. She was very nice, and had the dogs in her house. I truly thought I had done well because it wasn't a pet store. Everything felt right about getting her, and she was the most adorable puppy in my eyes. But alas, my darling Lola had problem after problem as a result of her poor breeding. After two years of struggling to keep her alive after she contracted GME, I had to let her go. It was extremely costly both emotionally and financially.
> 
> But I took this sad situation, and educated myself. I vowed to never again support anyone breeding dogs for profit and not the betterment of the breed. I believe in this so strongly it's hard to put it to words. I have tried to make something positive out of my loss. Together here on SM we have learned about GME, supported GME research by collecting DNA samples of our dogs for the study and shared the information with everyone in hopes of preventing anyone else from having to lose a dog this way.
> .
> SM has never supported BYB's or puppy mills. *This recent shift here, of seeming acceptance of this is alarming to me. We have never been "mean" to anyone seeking support or knowledge. And for that matter, to be labeled as mean for having strong core beliefs, and standing by them is alarming as well.*
> 
> I too support writing a SM Mission Statement. Let's do it!




I agree!! And I don't think I've been mean or have "attacked" anyone on here just because I don't agree with their poor decision-making. Some people here haven't agreed with some of my decisions, and I'm totally cool with it. They have a right to have an opinion! As long as they don't personally attack and insult me, I'm not offended, so I don't see why others should be.


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## pammy4501

eiksaa said:


> Agreed, Pam.
> 
> Marisa, I agree with everything you say here. Thanks for posting this. Sadly, at this point I am not feeling too optimistic.
> 
> Let's come up with the mission statement. Some of us will actually agree, some of us will give lip service to the idea and then do the exact opposite. Clearly, we are not unanimous in saying buying from BYB is not OK. Everyone likes the idea in theory, but when it comes to actually doing it people care more about being nice than worrying about animal abuse.
> 
> And then, what next? What do we do when this happens again? I know for a fact the person who recently bought from a BYB claimed today they will be buying from a similar breeder again in the future. *But hey, let's all be nice so we don't offend anyone. I have nothing nice to say about BYBs, so I guess according to the forum rules I will just need to shut up when this happens next time.*
> 
> Not trying to be facetious here. This is my appeal to members here so we can come up with a plan of action. Thanks for getting the wheels turning on this. So SM, let's brainstorm, what can we do? Come up with a mission statement and take turns to bump it every few days? Again, I am very serious.


And when that happens, the SM we know will cease to exist.


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## Fluffdoll

The reason why I fell in love with this forum was because of all the eye-opening information I learned on here. If the morality here changes, then I don't see any reason for me to stay here...


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## pammy4501

Fluffdoll said:


> The reason why I fell in love with this forum was because of all the eye-opening information I learned on here. If the morality here changes, then I don't see any reason for me to stay here...


Don't go, stay and take back SM. We need people that see reason. I have been personally attacked and called mean for speaking the truth. I attacked no one tonight. Just the truth from a perspective of personal experience.


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## hoaloha

Fluffdoll said:


> The reason why I fell in love with this forum was because of all the eye-opening information I learned on here. If the morality here changes, then I don't see any reason for me to stay here...


I agree with you Marisol! 

Here's some food for thought for all of us...
*
"Maturity is accepting responsibility for the outcomes of our actions and not focusing on the purity of our intentions." * 

A nice and loving heart does not justify bad decisions. We don't blame the dogs- they all deserve love; we blame humans.


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## eiksaa

pammy4501 said:


> Don't go, stay and take back SM. We need people that see reason. I have been personally attacked and called mean for speaking the truth. I attacked no one tonight. Just the truth from a perspective of personal experience.


Yes, let's take back SM! Enough of this 'BYB anonymous support group' business. Clearly, it's not working.


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## Fluffdoll

hoaloha said:


> "Maturity is accepting responsibility for the outcomes of our actions and not focusing on the purity of our intentions." [/B]


Really love that quote Marisa. It's perfect for this situation! And it is something we can _all_ apply to our own lives.

Honestly though, what people don't realize is that when we try to educate it's not to "bully" you. It's because we care for you and don't want others to suffer what we have already suffered.

Dolce, my Toy Poodle, had hereditary stones in his bladder which caused him to be hospitalized and was very painful for him and myself to see. Anyone who can read in the thread I posted when he was in the hospital can see how horrible it was to go through that situation. 

And, Dolce was indeed from a BYB! I got him when I was only 13 years old, I didn't know any better then, but years later, at the age of 18, I was suffering the consequences of that. People just don't get it. Even if it looks like a healthy puppy in the beginning, it doesn't mean he will always be so. 

We're not bullying. We're trying to prevent people from falling into these traps so that they don't go through this, and to prevent future puppies from being so poorly bred, so that they AND their parents don't suffer.


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## .13124

I also support having a mission statement for SM against BYB and supporting rescues or reputable breeders. I wish I would have found this forum sooner, I've learned so much, and now I'm 100% for supporting rescues and reputable breeders that have been mentioned on this forum. My Cici is a BYB dog, and although I love her with all my heart, I soon realized I made the wrong choice after reading more information from SM. I have my heart set on being a foster now, I'm just waiting to get settled down into an appropriate home to do so. And eventually I'll be adopting a female from a Maltese rescue if not by a reputable breeder. 

This is a great forum and I wish members wouldn't think that the forum has failed or that the battle to educate people has been lost. We can't expect to make everyone understand, but you should all be proud for the times you have turned new members to the "good side". 

A small suggestion on my behalf would be that maybe there could be a user agreement before creating a membership here on SM where it talks about the forum only supporting rescues and reputable breeders (and maybe a list of reputable breeders because there are too many fakes out there and future members could get confused). So they would have to read it and agree to it before they can create a membership. And since there's the possibility of them just clicking agree without reading, there's JavaScript coding in which the agree button is not clickable until the person scrolls to the bottom of the agreement, assuming they read it (it shouldn't be too long). Just an idea...


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## pammy4501

Fluffdoll said:


> Really love that quote Marisa. It's perfect for this situation! And it is something we can _all_ apply to our own lives.
> 
> Honestly though, what people don't realize is that when we try to educate it's not to "bully" you. It's because we care for you and don't want others to suffer what we have already suffered.
> 
> Dolce, my Toy Poodle, had hereditary stones in his bladder which caused him to be hospitalized and was very painful for him and myself to see. Anyone who can read in the thread I posted when he was in the hospital can see how horrible it was to go through that situation.
> 
> And, Dolce was indeed from a BYB! I got him when I was only 13 years old, I didn't know any better then, but years later, at the age of 18, I was suffering the consequences of that. People just don't get it. Even if it looks like a healthy puppy in the beginning, it doesn't mean he will always be so.
> 
> We're not bullying. We're trying to prevent people from falling into these traps so that they don't go through this, and to prevent future puppies from being so poorly bred, so that they AND their parents don't suffer.


You are preaching to the choir! But so well said!


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## Fluffdoll

BellaNotte said:


> I also support having a mission statement for SM against BYB and supporting rescues or reputable breeders. I wish I would have found this forum sooner, I've learned so much, and now I'm 100% for supporting rescues and reputable breeders that have been mentioned on this forum. My Cici is a BYB dog, and although I love her with all my heart, I soon realized I made the wrong choice after reading more information from SM. I have my heart set on being a foster now, I'm just waiting to get settled down into an appropriate home to do so. And eventually I'll be adopting a female from a Maltese rescue if not by a reputable breeder.
> 
> This is a great forum and I wish members wouldn't think that the forum has failed or that the battle to educate people has been lost. We can't expect to make everyone understand, but you should all be proud for the times you have turned new members to the "good side".
> 
> A small suggestion on my behalf would be that maybe there could be a user agreement before creating a membership here on SM where it talks about the forum only supporting rescues and reputable breeders (and maybe a list of reputable breeders because there are too many fakes out there and future members could get confused). So they would have to read it and agree to it before they can create a membership. And since there's the possibility of them just clicking agree without reading, there's JavaScript coding in which the agree button is not clickable until the person scrolls to the bottom of the agreement, assuming they read it (it shouldn't be too long). Just an idea...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was thinking the same thing. But if it's not too much trouble, I'd like for there to be some sort of explanation in it for why we don't support BYBs and puppy mills, just in case that new member doesn't understand. I know I didn't even know about this until _after_ I was already a member.


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## hoaloha

BellaNotte said:


> I also support having a mission statement for SM against BYB and supporting rescues or reputable breeders. I wish I would have found this forum sooner, I've learned so much, and now I'm 100% for supporting rescues and reputable breeders that have been mentioned on this forum. My Cici is a BYB dog, and although I love her with all my heart, I soon realized I made the wrong choice after reading more information from SM. I have my heart set on being a foster now, I'm just waiting to get settled down into an appropriate home to do so. And eventually I'll be adopting a female from a Maltese rescue if not by a reputable breeder.
> 
> This is a great forum and I wish members wouldn't think that the forum has failed or that the battle to educate people has been lost. We can't expect to make everyone understand, but you should all be proud for the times you have turned new members to the "good side".
> 
> A small suggestion on my behalf would be that maybe there could be a user agreement before creating a membership here on SM where it talks about the forum only supporting rescues and reputable breeders (and maybe a list of reputable breeders because there are too many fakes out there and future members could get confused). So they would have to read it and agree to it before they can create a membership. And since there's the possibility of them just clicking agree without reading, there's JavaScript coding in which the agree button is not clickable until the person scrolls to the bottom of the agreement, assuming they read it (it shouldn't be too long). Just an idea...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Great suggestions, Nora! I think you would make a wonderful foster, btw 


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## Summergirl73

Such a great post! Being silent does not work. Dogs are not save that way. Clear, firm voices are heard if not by some, by many. The more ears to hear that we reach, the more fluffs we save. 

A loving Mother does not tell her child what the child wants to hear, the loving Mother teaches the child what it needs to learn. 

I will not water down my views for anyone. 

Rescue. Save. Donate. Advocate. Educate. Stop Kill Shelters.


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## maggieh

Bravo! I applaud you all. We've tried to be accepting of everyone and many "newbies" think it's OK to adopt from a greeder. Well, folks, we've all been there and we have all learned, many of us through this very beloved forum. We need to accept the fact that we are the advocate for the innocent victims of puppy mills and work to educate others.

Thank you all!


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## SammieMom

hoaloha said:


> These are my general thoughts that I've had for the past few months especially. It is a general statement from my observations and not pointed toward any individual.
> 
> First off, I have learned SO much from this invaluable forum. I was the proud owner/parent of a beautiful maltese-poodle puppy from a "home breeder" aka Backyard Breeder (BYB ). He came to us at 8 weeks old and died suddenly at 8 months old. It was the most terrible pain I have felt as well as thousands of dollars into his critical end-of-life care. I came to this forum a few years ago in search of more information and, to my horror and deep regret, I realized I had supported these greedy-profit oriented Backyard Breeders who do NOTHING to improve the quality of maltese (or any other breed for the matter). I am very passionate about looking at the BIG PICTURE and standing up for the voiceless dogs and standing against those who think that they have the right to breed their dogs for profit.
> 
> Some people fall into impulse buys, thinking "this feels right! The puppy is adorable and I can "save" it!" You may be the BEST dog owner filled with love, but that doesn't change the fact that you've put money in the pockets of greedy breeders and gives them MORE reason to continue to exploit their dogs that are not up to ANY standard for health, conformation (structure), and temperament which makes us love purebred dogs in the first place. This is what ethical show breeders strive for- making each generation of maltese healthier and structurally sound.
> 
> *The fact of the matter is that it DOES make a difference where your dog is from in the grand scheme of things. * It also matters that we humans make the RIGHT choice to shutdown BYB's and Puppymills. If there is no demand, the supply must decrease.
> 
> As far as this forum goes, I have love for all of our dogs despite their origins. It's not where you got your dog from necessarily, but it is WHAT YOU CHOOSE AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN EDUCATED. I refuse to sit back and let BYB supporters take over. We need an SM mission statement really stating how most of us here feel- WE SUPPORT REPUTABLE, ETHICAL SHOW BREEDERS AND RESCUE ORGANIZATIONS ONLY.
> 
> I am sincere when I say I love seeing and reading all about all our dogs (it's not the puppies' or dogs' fault that they were born from a crappy situation), but I will not condone people's poor choices after they already have been educated. Rise above and make good choices from here on out.


:ThankYou: Marisa. Well said. First off; I know the difference in a newbie with a Byb puppy versus educated person buying from an unethical breeder and many now on SM supporting them. Not same thing!!! 
I too came to SM after loosing a 7 mo old puppy from a BYB like you. It's so much more than the money (5K) it cost me, it's the loosing one, what I learned about the way the females are overbred to death. It goes on and on. You know the drill....I could never give a dime to one again knowing how many treat the dogs just for extra cash.. Marisa, I posted till I'm blue in the face trying to lovingly warn people here about risks from a BYB, of shunts and Sammie's 3,400 leg surgery. I've seen our breeders being abused for speaking up. There may be others, but I've only seen one lady leave her deposit behind and cancel buying a puppy from a greeder, and call a reputable show breeder instead. Most ignore these posts and gravitate to the "fun cute puppy" posts. I've noticed so many of our members have left SM altogether or rarely post because the majority is no longer the force against unethical breeding it was.
There certainly is a bigger picture.


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## Maidto2Maltese

I too have experienced the heartache of buying from a BYB. My Missy came from a family that did a one-time breeding of their two Malts. I did know to not buy from a petstore BUT... was ignorant in thinking this situation was actually a 'good' thing. ( mama and papa and pups raised in a loving home).
I truthfully knew little about Maltese and thought getting her at 8 weeks old was also very 'acceptable'. My dear little girl was a 'genetic-mess' but we didn't know that until a couple years later. 
I think many/most are attracted by the 'price' of getting from a BYB... well I can attest to the fact that will likely come back to bite them. Missy's healthcare and well-being ended up costing us thousands upon thousands, upon thousands of dollars!! We aren't wealthy by any means but thankfully we were able to provide for her needs. ( we simply had to give up lots of 'pleasures' we had formally enjoyed) .


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## Maizy Moo's Mum

I for one am probably classed as a relatively newbie am thankful for the vast amount of knowledge this forum has to offer from many many members from all walks of life. I for one have learnt so much!!

I too got Maizy from a BYB before joining and not knowing any better, whilst I love her to pieces and would never change her I will not go back down that road again as I now know too much!!

I applaud you all for the rescue work you do, the transportation links you set up, the fosters and adoptions and whilst I am not actively involved in it I take great pleasure in knowing that I am part of an amazing group of people who truly care.

From afar I have seen there is a HUGE problem in the US and I see some beautiful babies on here who need homes and also see the success of adoption with the likes of Tessa, Bailey and Steve of a few that come to mind!! You should all feel extremely proud of being advocates for rescue and reputable breeders. Not everyone will listen but I for one have learnt so much. And remember educating one person is better than none!

At work we say that "for every bad experience you tell 10 people and for every good experience you only tell maybe 2" So maybe as much as this has been an emotive topic and certainly not ideal it is continuing to educate and get us talking on the right tracks!!

When the time comes in hopefully many many many years to come that I decide to embark on getting another puppy I will rely on you as a group of people I trust to help me make well informed decisions!!!

A lot of us newbies are listening and being new to the maltese breed i personally truly value the wealth of information some of the older member (not in age necessarily :w00t have to offer me and feel saddened that some of the older members have stopped posting please do not be pushed away as we need you!!!!:wub:


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## Orla

Excellent thread. I have seen the attitude change here and it's not good. People want to ignore the fact that supporting puppy mills and byb's is bad. I joined here a few weeks before I got Milo. I knew pet stores were bad and about mills but I had no clue about byb's - in fact, I assumed all maltese were the same - that any dog had the chance of being show quality. I was so incredibly lucky that I had gone to a reputable show breeder by pure chance. 

If a member comes here already having got a puppy from a BYB/puppy mill, then what's done is done but we should still try to educate them so they won't make the same decision again. If a member is planning on getting a puppy from one, then I believe we should advise them not to. If it was me, I hope that people would have told me the truth . 


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## mdbflorida

All of my wheatens and I have had 4 have come from backyard breeders for a reason. First, when I fell in love with the wheaten breed, they were rare and not many breeders in the US. They were extremely picky in placing their pups -wouldn't release them until they were 6 months or a year old and well I wanted a puppy. I really at that time didn't realize their was a difference in breeders. The first one died at age 3 of the rare kidney failure that is evident in the breed. #2 and # 3 lived to 16 with no issues and that is well past the age they are suppose to live and my mighty Zach is 7 and going strong. Then I fell in love with the maltese by going into a pet store and yes almost took him home because of his cuteness but my husband said are you nuts. Type A that I am I started researching and discovered this site. The off I went on my mission to find the perfect one. I did choose from a reputable breeder and one who is probably the most expensive one out there . And of course we love our little Boo. In the end, we all pick our little love ones for a variety of reason -impluse being one. It is hard not to fall in love with any of them. With every choice or decision, we bring one into our families and there is never any insurance that they are absolutely perfect but they will be loved. They all deserve to be loved. NO one picks their parents skin or fur! I agree we should not support any of these for profit if at all possible and I would not do it personally knowing what I know now; however, I can see how it happens and it is why they still exist. I sound wishy washing don't I. Last of all, thank you all who guided me through this expedition, at least you saved me.


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## Snowbody

hoaloha said:


> These are my general thoughts that I've had for the past few months especially. It is a general statement from my observations and not pointed toward any individual.
> 
> First off, I have learned SO much from this invaluable forum. I was the proud owner/parent of a beautiful maltese-poodle puppy from a "home breeder" aka Backyard Breeder (BYB ). He came to us at 8 weeks old and died suddenly at 8 months old. It was the most terrible pain I have felt as well as thousands of dollars into his critical end-of-life care. I came to this forum a few years ago in search of more information and, to my horror and deep regret, I realized I had supported these greedy-profit oriented Backyard Breeders who do NOTHING to improve the quality of maltese (or any other breed for the matter). I am very passionate about looking at the BIG PICTURE and standing up for the voiceless dogs and standing against those who think that they have the right to breed their dogs for profit.
> 
> Some people fall into impulse buys, thinking "this feels right! The puppy is adorable and I can "save" it!" You may be the BEST dog owner filled with love, but that doesn't change the fact that you've put money in the pockets of greedy breeders and gives them MORE reason to continue to exploit their dogs that are not up to ANY standard for health, conformation (structure), and temperament which makes us love purebred dogs in the first place. This is what ethical show breeders strive for- making each generation of maltese healthier and structurally sound.
> 
> *The fact of the matter is that it DOES make a difference where your dog is from in the grand scheme of things. * It also matters that we humans make the RIGHT choice to shutdown BYB's and Puppymills. If there is no demand, the supply must decrease.
> 
> As far as this forum goes, I have love for all of our dogs despite their origins. It's not where you got your dog from necessarily, but it is WHAT YOU CHOOSE AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN EDUCATED. I refuse to sit back and let BYB supporters take over. We need an SM mission statement really stating how most of us here feel- WE SUPPORT REPUTABLE, ETHICAL SHOW BREEDERS AND RESCUE ORGANIZATIONS ONLY.
> 
> I am sincere when I say I love seeing and reading all about all our dogs (it's not the puppies' or dogs' fault that they were born from a crappy situation), but I will not condone people's poor choices after they already have been educated. Rise above and make good choices from here on out.


:goodpost::ThankYou:


eiksaa said:


> Agreed, Pam.
> 
> Marisa, I agree with everything you say here. Thanks for posting this. Sadly, at this point I am not feeling too optimistic.
> 
> Let's come up with the mission statement. Some of us will actually agree, some of us will give lip service to the idea and then do the exact opposite. Clearly, we are not unanimous in saying buying from BYB is not OK. Everyone likes the idea in theory, but when it comes to actually doing it people care more about being nice than worrying about animal abuse.
> 
> And then, what next? What do we do when this happens again? I know for a fact the person who recently bought from a BYB claimed today they will be buying from a similar breeder again in the future. But hey, let's all be nice so we don't offend anyone. I have nothing nice to say about BYBs, so I guess according to the forum rules I will just need to shut up when this happens next time.
> 
> Not trying to be facetious here. This is my appeal to members here so we can come up with a plan of action. Thanks for getting the wheels turning on this. So SM, let's brainstorm, what can we do? Come up with a mission statement and take turns to bump it every few days? Again, I am very serious.


:you rock::ThankYou:
Thanks Marisa for bringing this up. A mission statement would be a wonderful idea to show what we stand for here on SM. 
I know that we often share cute photos, outfits, accessories here, but those images are so outweighed to me by the photos and video I've seen of puppy mills and the squalor the dogs live in, the filth and matting of their coats and the sad defeated looks on their faces as they sit in the feces of the dog in the cage above them and their own. Those puppy mill photos far outweigh the rest and are truly what means most in life and that's that no dog should have to live that way, especially in order to make money for greeders. Add to that the photos we see everyday of dogs about to be euthanized in shelters across this country. They need to have their lives saved. They could care less if they have one bed, 6 beds or no bed...all they want is love. We have an obligation here to help stop the abuse of animals...and mills and BYB puppy farms are abusers who do what they do for the mighty dollar. We need to be the solution, not part of the problem. 

We have nothing at all against those who bought dogs from pet stores or BYB's in the past and I want to make sure that they are welcome to our site so that they can become educated and advocate for the Maltese breed. It's what you do after you've been educated that's important. I applaud any and all efforts to make a difference.


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## SammieMom

Snowbody said:


> :goodpost::ThankYou:
> 
> :you rock::ThankYou:
> Thanks Marisa for bringing this up. A mission statement would be a wonderful idea to show what we stand for here on SM.
> I know that we often share cute photos, outfits, accessories here, but those images are so outweighed to me by the photos and video I've seen of puppy mills and the squalor the dogs live in, the filth and matting of their coats and the sad defeated looks on their faces as they sit in the feces of the dog in the cage above them and their own. Those puppy mill photos far outweigh the rest and are truly what means most in life and that's that no dog should have to live that way, especially in order to make money for greeders. Add to that the photos we see everyday of dogs about to be euthanized in shelters across this country. They need to have their lives saved. They could care less if they have one bed, 6 beds or no bed...all they want is love. We have an obligation here to help stop the abuse of animals...and mills and BYB puppy farms are abusers who do what they do for the mighty dollar. We need to be the solution, not part of the problem.
> 
> We have nothing at all against those who bought dogs from pet stores or BYB's in the past and I want to make sure that they are welcome to our site so that they can become educated and advocate for the Maltese breed. It's what you do after you've been educated that's important. I applaud any and all efforts to make a difference.


:goodpost::goodpost:


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## StevieB

I LOVE the idea of a mission statement and I'll bring it up for us mods to discuss and present to the "higher powers". I think it is WELL known what the general and long standing beliefs are on SM and why people come on here and blatantly go against it then point fingers and call us judgmental and intolerant is beyond me.


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## maltese manica

Agreed on this post! You guys dont know this of my life, but my mom had a contract with a newfoundland breeder....... he was a stud but was also in so many shows! I could count the endless times when my mom was always on the road..... so be it in the USA and Canada!!! LOL drove me nuts that she wasnt always home  I have learned so much from her and her breeder and her breeder friends and the breeders sister who is a vet etc................................ I can tell you guys horror stories about dogs from pet stores and bybs that will send chills up your spine and will make you so angry that you want to punch a wall or something like that!!


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## maltese manica

https://www.facebook.com/StopTheSaleOfPetsInStores

Please take the time and look at what my friend created on FB to help the stop the sales of pets on line in the store etc!!!


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## maltese manica




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## maltese manica




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## maltese manica




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## ladodd

maltese manica said:


>


When I joined this forum in 2012, it was out of tremendous grief. I had just lost my precious Luci at 2 1/2 yrs old. I was looking for empathy over my loss. I found it here with all of you. I think you all cried over my loss and helped me through it. During this period I figured out that Luci was from puppy broker/mill. I was fortunate enough to find a fantastic reputable breeder and now have Addie and Jack.

If I had it to do over, I would have still gotten Luci. I was able to give her 2 1/2 yrs in a loving home. Addie and Jack are probably the last babies that I will have. I hope that in the future I will be able to take in seniors that need to live out there lives being spoiled rotten.


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## hoaloha

Maizy Moo's Mum said:


> I for one am probably classed as a relatively newbie am thankful for the vast amount of knowledge this forum has to offer from many many members from all walks of life. I for one have learnt so much!!
> 
> *I too got Maizy from a BYB before joining and not knowing any better, whilst I love her to pieces and would never change her I will not go back down that road again as I now know too much!!*
> 
> I applaud you all for the rescue work you do, the transportation links you set up, the fosters and adoptions and whilst I am not actively involved in it I take great pleasure in knowing that I am part of an amazing group of people who truly care.
> 
> From afar I have seen there is a HUGE problem in the US and I see some beautiful babies on here who need homes and also see the success of adoption with the likes of Tessa, Bailey and Steve of a few that come to mind!! You should all feel extremely proud of being advocates for rescue and reputable breeders. Not everyone will listen but I for one have learnt so much. And remember educating one person is better than none!
> 
> *At work we say that "for every bad experience you tell 10 people and for every good experience you only tell maybe 2" So maybe as much as this has been an emotive topic and certainly not ideal it is continuing to educate and get us talking on the right tracks!!*
> 
> When the time comes in hopefully many many many years to come that I decide to embark on getting another puppy I will rely on you as a group of people I trust to help me make well informed decisions!!!
> 
> A lot of us newbies are listening and being new to the maltese breed i personally truly value the wealth of information some of the older member (not in age necessarily :w00t have to offer me and feel saddened that some of the older members have stopped posting please do not be pushed away as we need you!!!!:wub:


Lisa, your words are so wise! Thank you for sharing and please give Maizy a hug from me!


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## Oakley Jackson

I found SM after I purchased Oakley. I was looking for info on tear stains. I have learned so much here! Including how to find a reputable breeder. Sadly Oakley is from a BYB. He will be a year old next month. I will just hope for the best health wise for him as that's all I can do. Appreciate all the help given here.


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## hoaloha

Oakley Jackson said:


> I found SM after I purchased Oakley. I was looking for info on tear stains. I have learned so much here! Including how to find a reputable breeder. Sadly Oakley is from a BYB. He will be a year old next month. I will just hope for the best health wise for him as that's all I can do. Appreciate all the help given here.


Kathy, we all make mistakes but that doesn't change your (or our) love for Oakley! I'm so glad you've joined and have had your eyes opened like I have


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## Bamalama

Adorable! But DH says we can't adopt until Pukky is about a year old. BUT, if I could:

Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Maltese | Milton, FL | POCKET


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## mdbflorida

Bamalama said:


> Adorable! But DH says we can't adopt until Pukky is about a year old. BUT, if I could:
> 
> Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Maltese | Milton, FL | POCKET


Poor baby


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## Bamalama

I got an email from the shelter that he's around a year old, a little skittish, but super sweet and playful once comfortable with someone and is a lovebug!


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## LuvMyBoys

Bamalama said:


> Adorable! But DH says we can't adopt until Pukky is about a year old. BUT, if I could:
> 
> Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Maltese | Milton, FL | POCKET


 
Why did you post this here?


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## Sylie

Some time ago thirty Maltese dogs were found running scared on a road in Texas. They were collected and rescued and found good homes. It was obvious that they were dumped by a puppy mill operation that went out of business. It was very sad, but it was a good thing. Progress can be very painful and slow. But it is a fact: if you don't buy a puppy from a puppymill or BYB they _will_ close down. Someday, nobody will attempt to raise dogs for profit, because there will be no market. Someday, no dogs will spend their lives in filthy cages cranking out a litter every season. That is the goal, but it isn't going to happen until everybody learns and behaves accordingly. Every time a person choses to be an exception and supports "greeders" the movement towards the ethical treatment of pets takes a step backwards.


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## hoaloha

Sylie said:


> Some time ago thirty Maltese dogs were found running scared on a road in Texas. They were collected and rescued and found good homes. It was obvious that they were dumped by a puppy mill operation that went out of business. It was very sad, but it was a good thing. Progress can be very painful and slow. But it is a fact: if you don't buy a puppy from a puppymill or BYB they _will_ close down. Someday, nobody will attempt to raise dogs for profit, because there will be no market. Someday, no dogs will spend their lives in filthy cages cranking out a litter every season. That is the goal, but it isn't going to happen until everybody learns and behaves accordingly. Every time a person choses to be an exception and supports "greeders" the movement towards the ethical treatment of pets takes a step backwards.


perfectly stated! :thumbsup:


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## edelweiss

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men/Women Do/say Nothing" (author unknown).
I think this quote eloquently states our responsibility to educate, educate, educate. It is outside the realm of our power to control others but it is within the realm of our power to stand up as advocates for those w/out a voice (in this case the puppies born to BYBs & greeders, and the dams & sires that are used in horrid ways and for material gain at their expense.


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## eiksaa

edelweiss said:


> "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men/Women Do/say Nothing" (author unknown).
> I think this quote eloquently states our responsibility to educate, educate, educate. It is outside the realm of our power to control others but it is within the realm of our power to stand up as advocates for those w/out a voice (in this case the puppies born to BYBs & greeders, and the dams & sires that are used in horrid ways and for material gain at their expense.


:aktion033:


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## maltese manica

Sylie said:


> Some time ago thirty Maltese dogs were found running scared on a road in Texas. They were collected and rescued and found good homes. It was obvious that they were dumped by a puppy mill operation that went out of business. It was very sad, but it was a good thing. Progress can be very painful and slow. But it is a fact: if you don't buy a puppy from a puppymill or BYB they _will_ close down. Someday, nobody will attempt to raise dogs for profit, because there will be no market. Someday, no dogs will spend their lives in filthy cages cranking out a litter every season. That is the goal, but it isn't going to happen until everybody learns and behaves accordingly. Every time a person choses to be an exception and supports "greeders" the movement towards the ethical treatment of pets takes a step backwards.


 
Nicely said :wub:


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## Meilerca

Thor is from a BYB  I researched online for months, and found this breeder. Good website! Said his dad was a almost a champion! Said all the right things. Needless I say I got Thor at nearly 8 weeks old! Week later I joined here, and have learned sooo much! I am truly thankful for all the advice given! We are currently waiting for the right match from a reputable breeder! I know know this takes time! I live near Amish country and often go to this one pet store and they do often have maltese puppies! My heart aches for them. Good things come to those who wait and make responsible decisions. 
Carri and Thor


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## mysugarbears

edelweiss said:


> "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men/Women Do/say Nothing" (author unknown).
> I think this quote eloquently states our responsibility to educate, educate, educate. It is outside the realm of our power to control others but it is within the realm of our power to stand up as advocates for those w/out a voice (in this case the puppies born to BYBs & greeders, and the dams & sires that are used in horrid ways and for material gain at their expense.




Excellent post Sandi! :aktion033::aktion033: :aktion033:

I'm all for a mission statement, i'm sickened and saddened at the turn the forum seems to have taken....reason why i rarely post anymore...it's just not the same SM as it once was. 

It's time to take back our SM and bring it back to what it once was. We have never been one to support byb/greeders/puppymills and it's just so sad when someone has been educated and still lines the pockets of one of these greeder, puppy miller or what have you and are then applauded by some and the good meaning members are called names. You think what about the poor puppy, i'm saving their life,well stop and think about the parents of said puppy, you've condemned them to a life (well what kind of life do they have) having litters after litters of puppies! 

Unfortunately i wasn't able to comment on the threads before they were closed.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

edelweiss said:


> "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men/Women Do/say Nothing" (author unknown).
> I think this quote eloquently states our responsibility to educate, educate, educate. It is outside the realm of our power to control others but it is within the realm of our power to stand up as advocates for those w/out a voice (in this case the puppies born to BYBs & greeders, and the dams & sires that are used in horrid ways and for material gain at their expense.


Amen.


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## Snowbody

edelweiss said:


> "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men/Women Do/say Nothing" (author unknown).
> I think this quote eloquently states our responsibility to educate, educate, educate. It is outside the realm of our power to control others but it is within the realm of our power to stand up as advocates for those w/out a voice (in this case the puppies born to BYBs & greeders, and the dams & sires that are used in horrid ways and for material gain at their expense.


:amen:


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## Tashulia25

Sylie said:


> Some time ago thirty Maltese dogs were found running scared on a road in Texas. They were collected and rescued and found good homes. It was obvious that they were dumped by a puppy mill operation that went out of business. It was very sad, but it was a good thing. Progress can be very painful and slow. But it is a fact: if you don't buy a puppy from a puppymill or BYB they _will_ close down. Someday, nobody will attempt to raise dogs for profit, because there will be no market. Someday, no dogs will spend their lives in filthy cages cranking out a litter every season. That is the goal, but it isn't going to happen until everybody learns and behaves accordingly. Every time a person choses to be an exception and supports "greeders" the movement towards the ethical treatment of pets takes a step backwards.


amen. still don't get why people keep dogs in cages even they call it Crate. My dogs NEVER stay in playpen locked at home , not even talking to keep them in for life


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## SammieMom

ANY dog, from anyone can get sick!! everyone realizes that. 

(((But so far I have seen one death and far more health/behavioural/coat problems in my dogs bought from people breeding for profit AND none so far in my 1 dog from a reputable show breeder. And there are people I warned that have bought dogs from BYB's / newspaper ads here and have had tons of issues..3 were rehomed. The truth sucks sometimes. But there it is..)))

But BEYOND this defense "a dog from a show breeder got sick" used by some to defend buying from a non show breeder, it's about the bigger picture. 

THERE IS NO ACCEPTABLE REASON TO GIVE THESE BREEDERS MONEY, THEY WILL USE IT TO CONTINUE BREEDING THESE POOR DOGS TO DEATH!! NO MONEY-AND THEY FOLD UP SHOP-
THE DOG IS FREE OR WALK AWAY. :thumbsup:


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## maggieh

Sylie said:


> Some time ago thirty Maltese dogs were found running scared on a road in Texas. They were collected and rescued and found good homes. It was obvious that they were dumped by a puppy mill operation that went out of business. It was very sad, but it was a good thing. Progress can be very painful and slow. But it is a fact: if you don't buy a puppy from a puppymill or BYB they _will_ close down. Someday, nobody will attempt to raise dogs for profit, because there will be no market. Someday, no dogs will spend their lives in filthy cages cranking out a litter every season. That is the goal, but it isn't going to happen until everybody learns and behaves accordingly. *Every time a person choses to be an exception and supports "greeders" the movement towards the ethical treatment of pets takes a step backwards*.


This is so very true - it's just like anything else that we see in the world that is wrong. Are we going to try to make it right and become part of the solution, or are we going to ignore it, or worse - support it, and thus become part of the problem?




edelweiss said:


> "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men/Women Do/say Nothing" (author unknown).
> I think this quote eloquently states our responsibility to educate, educate, educate. It is outside the realm of our power to control others but it is within the realm of our power to stand up as advocates for those w/out a voice (in this case the puppies born to BYBs & greeders, and the dams & sires that are used in horrid ways and for material gain at their expense.


Yes! We have to say something or we are endorsing the greeders with our silence.


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## maddysmom

I also bought my Lacie from a BYB. Last year after losing Maddy, I gathered info, questions and what I thought was enough info and put out my search for the right breeder. I walked away from breeders like Laptop(Kim Lemaire) and a few others when I just didn't get a good feeling. I ended up with my breeder, who answered in all the right ways. What I know now is I shld have dug deeper, asked more questions to her answers.
I deal with about 100 clients per week and FLASH FORWARD...when they ask me about Lacie, ..I turn into a crazy person! I go into more detail about my experience, why they shld NOT buy from these local BYB, pet stores that are opening up all over NH, breeders with great MARKETING that they are very good at fooling people and to do more research, go to the dog shows and meet breeders there...DO NOT BUY from BYB/PET STORES with the cute dog in the window. Come to SM and ask, and learn what you can so they make the best decision they can and not the same mistake I did by buying from these people.

On a better note, 50% of my clients have walked away from their BYB purchase to do more research, about 30% of my clients went to a different breed because of easier access to show breeders of that breed in Mass and 10% have chosen to go to Europe because they said the laws are stricter and the other 10% just didn't listen and did their own thing.
I myself wld love to have another malt but I have lots and lots more to learn and lots to share with those who are looking. The BIG problem here in Mass is that their are really not any reputible Maltese breeders so it makes it very difficult to find one and sadly, the easy way out for some is to go and buy from a BYB who has a good sales pitch..very sad!


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## Orla

Tashulia25 said:


> amen. still don't get why people keep dogs in cages even they call it Crate. My dogs NEVER stay in playpen locked at home , not even talking to keep them in for life


There's nothing wrong with crates or puppy pens when they are used properly. Milo sleeps in his crate every night and when he was a puppy he'd stay in it when we went out (never for more than 2 hours)


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## Kathleen

maddysmom said:


> I also bought my Lacie from a BYB. Last year after losing Maddy, I gathered info, questions and what I thought was enough info and put out my search for the right breeder. I walked away from breeders like Laptop(Kim Lemaire) and a few others when I just didn't get a good feeling. I ended up with my breeder, who answered in all the right ways. What I know now is I shld have dug deeper, asked more questions to her answers.
> 
> ... The BIG problem here in Mass is that their are really not any reputible Maltese breeders so it makes it very difficult to find one and sadly, the easy way out for some is to go and buy from a BYB who has a good sales pitch..very sad!


I agree! The scary thing is that some BYBs are crafty enough to try to make themselves sound like reputable breeders. So even if you have a good list of what to look for, they have the same list and know the right things to say.
I met with Laptop too. Her website said most of the right things that I knew to look for, and her puppy contract definitely did. But when I met with her, I had the chance to ask more detailed questions and just had a bad feeling. Just a gut instinct. Her puppies were very cute, but I had to try to make the decision with my head not my heart. This can be really hard when you want a puppy so badly, especially after just losing one. I am so glad that I didn't just make the easiest choice - those poor dogs, so neglected and sick. I am so grateful to those here on SM who helped to guide me.
I think it is so important to meet with the breeder if you can. You will learn things that don't come across on a website or in email.


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## Dominic

Tashulia25 said:


> If the lady I was talking about , wont be scare to write the name of her breeder, you all might change your opinion about good or not breeder. Taking dogs to the show is not guarantee that their dogs are healthy. Some people just can become a money hungry , maybe they were awesome breeders 15 years ago(I am talking only about 1 show breeder).


I understand you are upset with whatever has happened to your friend's dog but yet I do not understand your need to write against reputable breeders saying you can't trust them either because YOUR FRIEND is having a problem with HER DOG which you can't seem to clarify WHICH problem it is but yet with all the information you are writing around, only a blind person can't see who is the breeder and that is not right.

First get the facts together, both sides of the story. Then if YOUR FRIEND decides to speak up that's up to her. Please, let's keep it informative and educative not alarmist and "I can't tell but I know". That won't help anyone.


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## hoaloha

maddysmom said:


> I also bought my Lacie from a BYB. Last year after losing Maddy, I gathered info, questions and what I thought was enough info and put out my search for the right breeder. I walked away from breeders like Laptop(Kim Lemaire) and a few others when I just didn't get a good feeling. I ended up with my breeder, who answered in all the right ways. What I know now is I shld have dug deeper, asked more questions to her answers.
> I deal with about 100 clients per week and FLASH FORWARD...when they ask me about Lacie, ..I turn into a crazy person! I go into more detail about my experience, why they shld NOT buy from these local BYB, pet stores that are opening up all over NH, breeders with great MARKETING that they are very good at fooling people and to do more research, go to the dog shows and meet breeders there...DO NOT BUY from BYB/PET STORES with the cute dog in the window. Come to SM and ask, and learn what you can so they make the best decision they can and not the same mistake I did by buying from these people.
> 
> *On a better note, 50% of my clients have walked away from their BYB purchase to do more research, about 30% of my clients went to a different breed because of easier access to show breeders of that breed in Mass and 10% have chosen to go to Europe because they said the laws are stricter and the other 10% just didn't listen and did their own thing.*
> I myself wld love to have another malt but I have lots and lots more to learn and lots to share with those who are looking. The BIG problem here in Mass is that their are really not any reputible Maltese breeders so it makes it very difficult to find one and sadly, the easy way out for some is to go and buy from a BYB who has a good sales pitch..very sad!


Joann, I could hug you right now! This totally goes to show that one person can make a HUGE difference. 



Kathleen said:


> I agree! The scary thing is that some BYBs are crafty enough to try to make themselves sound like reputable breeders. So even if you have a good list of what to look for, they have the same list and know the right things to say.
> I met with Laptop too. Her website said most of the right things that I knew to look for, and her puppy contract definitely did. But when I met with her, I had the chance to ask more detailed questions and just had a bad feeling. Just a gut instinct. Her puppies were very cute, but I had to try to make the decision with my head not my heart. This can be really hard when you want a puppy so badly, especially after just losing one. I am so glad that I didn't just make the easiest choice - those poor dogs, so neglected and sick. I am so grateful to those here on SM who helped to guide me.
> I think it is so important to meet with the breeder if you can. You will learn things that don't come across on a website or in email.


agreed! BYB's are SO sneaky and they pave all their words with "good intentions and love." While BYB's may actually love their dogs (and some do, while some don't), they don't contribute to the betterment of the breed. That's a huge reason why unskilled people should not breed their dogs!


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## puppydoll

Mags, what breeder is Boo from? 
And Orla, what breeder is Milo from?


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## Snowbody

I totally agree with the posts on here about why it does matter where you get your Maltese from. :chili::chili: As for the posts about getting a dog with liver disease from a reputable breeder... THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES IN LIFE! As a woman I know that you can do all the right things when you're pregnant and you can still have a miscarriage or end up with a baby who has some dreaded disease. It's life. It happens even when best intentions are there. Maltese and Yorkies breeds do have dogs with liver issues. But I like to stack the deck in my favor by going with show breeders who know what they're doing and aren't selling dogs just for the sake of lining their pockets and making money off the suffering of dogs being overbred and housed inhumanely.


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## Orla

puppydoll said:


> Mags, what breeder is Boo from?
> And Orla, what breeder is Milo from?


Milo is from a breeder in Scotland called Suncube maltese


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## SammieMom

maddysmom said:


> I also bought my Lacie from a BYB. Last year after losing Maddy, I gathered info, questions and what I thought was enough info and put out my search for the right breeder. I walked away from breeders like Laptop(Kim Lemaire) and a few others when I just didn't get a good feeling. I ended up with my breeder, who answered in all the right ways. What I know now is I shld have dug deeper, asked more questions to her answers.
> I deal with about 100 clients per week and FLASH FORWARD...when they ask me about Lacie, ..I turn into a crazy person! I go into more detail about my experience, why they shld NOT buy from these local BYB, pet stores that are opening up all over NH, breeders with great MARKETING that they are very good at fooling people and to do more research, go to the dog shows and meet breeders there...DO NOT BUY from BYB/PET STORES with the cute dog in the window. Come to SM and ask, and learn what you can so they make the best decision they can and not the same mistake I did by buying from these people.
> 
> On a better note, 50% of my clients have walked away from their BYB purchase to do more research, about 30% of my clients went to a different breed because of easier access to show breeders of that breed in Mass and 10% have chosen to go to Europe because they said the laws are stricter and the other 10% just didn't listen and did their own thing.
> I myself wld love to have another malt but I have lots and lots more to learn and lots to share with those who are looking. The BIG problem here in Mass is that their are really not any reputible Maltese breeders so it makes it very difficult to find one and sadly, the easy way out for some is to go
> and buy from a BYB who has a good sales pitch..very sad!


Joan-I am so sorry about your Maddy...:wub:...maybe when your ready, check into show breeders that will fly their puppies to buyers? I have read many stories here of people that have. I found my breeder through freinds on this forum. Good luck to you!!


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## Poppy's mommy

I believe that it matters where our dogs come from but I also believe that you need to make sure you have a great relationship with the breeder that you pick and that they stand behind their dogs 100%. I also think that this forum is great but sometimes we need to try to educate positively and not negatively. If a person decides to buy from a byb or puppy mill after educating them on why not to we should not belittle them but just accept it for what it is. We are all a family here and we are all different.


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## maddysmom

hoaloha said:


> Joann, I could hug you right now! This totally goes to show that one person can make a HUGE difference.
> 
> 
> agreed! BYB's are SO sneaky and they pave all their words with "good intentions and love." While BYB's may actually love their dogs (and some do, while some don't), they don't contribute to the betterment of the breed. That's a huge reason why unskilled people should not breed their dogs!


Thankyou Marisa. So after dwelling on this thread I decided to stop by the so-called Puppy Palace in NH that so many people have bought pups from.
Of course the crazy person in me came out again....I just can't seem to control it. I started drilling the owner on her puppy's, well....needless to say...she got very pissy....so I got very pissy and then she got really angry, asked me to leave or she wld call the police...hehe!
Those poor poor babies looked very sickly, locked up in a small cage but the most disappointing to me was how many people were in there shopping for a puppy to take home....with her summer sale 50% off.
Her pathetic Facebook link....https://www.facebook.com/pages/Puppy-Palace-Salem-NH/150514325002720
We really really have to educate people...this is so wrong...so so wrong!


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## maltese manica

maddysmom said:


> Thankyou Marisa. So after dwelling on this thread I decided to stop by the so-called Puppy Palace in NH that so many people have bought pups from.
> Of course the crazy person in me came out again....I just can't seem to control it. I started drilling the owner on her puppy's, well....needless to say...she got very pissy....so I got very pissy and then she got really angry, asked me to leave or she wld call the police...hehe!
> Those poor poor babies looked very sickly, locked up in a small cage but the most disappointing to me was how many people were in there shopping for a puppy to take home....with her summer sale 50% off.
> Her pathetic Facebook link....https://www.facebook.com/pages/Puppy-Palace-Salem-NH/150514325002720
> We really really have to educate people...this is so wrong...so so wrong!


 
This makes me so sick to my stomach and so angry!!! I hope that we can educate more and more ppl to stop buying from these bad bad bad bad evil ppl!!! thank you being a voice for the voiceless!!! PAWS UP TO YOU!!!


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## zooeysmom

Poppy's mommy said:


> If a person decides to buy from a byb or puppy mill after educating them on why not to we should not belittle them but just accept it for what it is. We are all a family here and we are all different.


I think anyone who has worked with rescues feels differently. I cannot and will not ever accept anyone who *knowingly *buys from a puppy mill greeder. And I would disown any of my family members if they did so.


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## dragonsdawn

Bentley my daughter's maltese was from a byb. Yes we loom at it as a resuce... right after we got him we went to the vet and with the vet report on his condition were able to go to the authorities. Now this was almost two years ago. We thought what we did was in vain. Recently I received a call to inform me that it took awhile they did close her down. She wasn't quite a puppy mill but they said she was well.om the way to it. I feel better about getting my grandpuppy, as my daughter calls him, away from that place. I know not all storys turn out this way but I am glad this one did and she is being punished for what she did. I am a strong believer in rescues and I am glad this forum is to.

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## Snuggle's Mom

And NO ONE, should be belittled even though many might not agree. Everyone does have a right to his or her opinion, but not to knowingly hurt someone who might have done something that might not be in the best interest of others.

And yes, I am certainly aware that there are far too many rescues that are in need of a good home and wish that there were some closer by to where I live. When the time comes, I will look more diligently in getting our next dog through a rescue organization.


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## sophie

Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs. 

While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.

Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions? 

I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless - the abused, the neglected, the overbred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!

Linda.


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## pammy4501

sophie said:


> Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs.
> 
> While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.
> 
> Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions?
> 
> I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless - the abused, the neglected, the overbred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!
> Linda.


Well said Linda!! I totally agree.


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## maltese manica

I second that paw motion!paws up


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## SammieMom

sophie said:


> Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but *I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement* - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs.
> 
> While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.
> 
> Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions?
> 
> I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - *especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless* - the abused, the neglected, the over bred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!
> 
> Linda.


:amen:


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## Bailey&Me

sophie said:


> Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs.
> 
> While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.
> 
> Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions?
> 
> I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless - the abused, the neglected, the overbred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!
> 
> Linda.


:goodpost::you rock:


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## eiksaa

sophie said:


> Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs.
> 
> While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.
> 
> Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions?
> 
> I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless - the abused, the neglected, the overbred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!
> 
> Linda.


Love this post, Linda. So well said!


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## Dominic

sophie said:


> Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs.
> 
> While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.
> 
> Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions?
> 
> I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless - the abused, the neglected, the overbred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!
> 
> Linda.


You've said it all. Perfect!


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

sophie said:


> Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs.
> 
> While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.
> 
> Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions?
> 
> I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless - the abused, the neglected, the overbred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!
> 
> Linda.


Thank you, Linda. I agree.


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## Maisie and Me

Because people choose not to get involved in abusive threads does not mean there is a new air of " tolerence". NO one is agreeing that buying from BYB or puppymills is a good thing. 

How you treat your fellow man is as important as how you treat a dog. Love Thy Neighbor is the most important rule. By all means teach and correct and make this forum a shining example of good taste and good information but do it in a decent, repectable manner please.

Because you were hurt, decieved etc in the past by a BYB or puppymill and choose to advocate for these babies it can be done without jumping down peoples' throats and jumping into the frey like a bunch of sheep with mob mentality . We certainly will have differences of opinion which can be expressed in a tolerent manner for all and not just tolerant for YOUR beliefs.

You have the power to start making this world a better place, and on this forum. Snide remarks by some, and the public patting each other on the back for short tempered and imature behavior despite that you are calling it fervor and passion needs to be seen for what it is.

There are people on this forum who by their own admission have mental health issues and this needs to be taken into account. Try reading between the lines before you react. My 2 $


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## sophie

Michelle, I agree with a lot of what you said, if not most. I haven't been actively posting on SM for a while, although I do try to keep up. One of the reasons that I chose not to participate was that as older members left and newer members joined they did bring with them the "air" of tolerance. 

I will admit that I may have been wrong for stepping back. I think recent posts have shown that a few still hold the belief that tolerance for someone who knowingly supports the "enemy," even after admitting they've been educated in the right way, is okay, don't say anything, what's done is done... but, what about the next new member who comes along and sees those posts of tolerance of those who flaunt their byb purchase? They may not be outright agreeing, but they are certainly not disagreeing.

I do, however, take offense at your remark about mental health. I'm in counseling right now for severe depression, am married to a disabled vet who suffers greatly with PTSD, have a son who is bi-polar...I could go on and on. Even two of my fluffs, who are rescues, have issues! Am I embarrassed by these struggles? Obviously not. :w00t:

All of this greatly affects my daily life, but it DOES NOT affect my ability to form opinions and beliefs, nor does it affect my right to express them on SM. I respectfully ask that you would take that into account.

Linda



Maisie and Me said:


> Because people choose not to get involved in abusive threads does not mean there is a new air of " tolerence". NO one is agreeing that buying from BYB or puppymills is a good thing.
> 
> How you treat your fellow man is as important as how you treat a dog. Love Thy Neighbor is the most important rule. By all means teach and correct and make this forum a shining example of good taste and good information but do it in a decent, repectable manner please.
> 
> Because you were hurt, decieved etc in the past by a BYB or puppymill and choose to advocate for these babies it can be done without jumping down peoples' throats and jumping into the frey like a bunch of sheep with mob mentality . We certainly will have differences of opinion which can be expressed in a tolerent manner for all and not just tolerant for YOUR beliefs.
> 
> You have the power to start making this world a better place, and on this forum. Snide remarks by some, and the public patting each other on the back for short tempered and imature behavior despite that you are calling it fervor and passion needs to be seen for what it is.
> 
> There are people on this forum who by their own admission have mental health issues and this needs to be taken into account. Try reading between the lines before you react. My 2 $


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## pammy4501

sophie said:


> Michelle, I agree with a lot of what you said, if not most. I haven't been actively posting on SM for a while, although I do try to keep up. One of the reasons that I chose not to participate was that as older members left and newer members joined they did bring with them the "air" of tolerance.
> 
> I will admit that I may have been wrong for stepping back. I think recent posts have shown that a few still hold the belief that tolerance for someone who knowingly supports the "enemy," even after admitting they've been educated in the right way, is okay, don't say anything, what's done is done... but, what about the next new member who comes along and sees those posts of tolerance of those who flaunt their byb purchase? They may not be outright agreeing, but they are certainly not disagreeing.
> 
> I do, however, take offense at your remark about mental health. I'm in counseling right now for severe depression, am married to a disabled vet who suffers greatly with PTSD, have a son who is bi-polar...I could go on and on. Even two of my fluffs, who are rescues, have issues! Am I embarrassed by these struggles? Obviously not. :w00t:
> 
> All of this greatly affects my daily life, but it DOES NOT affect my ability to form opinions and beliefs, nor does it affect my right to express them on SM. I respectfully ask that you would take that into account.
> 
> Linda


And Linda, you are one of the people that I have missed. We lose good members when toxic people go unchecked on this forum. We spend so much time trying to appease the 10% of difficult people that we neglect the 90% who are wonderful caring members with so much to contribute! Hugs to you Linda.


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## sophie

Love you, Pam. Thanks...


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## Maisie and Me

Linda, I did not mean to offend you. In essence I was trying to advocate not demean those with mental health issues. I am sorry it did not come across that way.
I have worked for 37 years as an ER nurse and have delt with patients with those issues. many, many, many pts. have the ability to make rational decisions but some can not. I guess in my heart of hearts I was trying to understand why a person who was educated here on SM would make that decision because again it is not rarional.
Please don't take offense. I was not trying to belittle those with Mental health issues.
I am not trying to stir up trouble but trying to end it.:Flowers 2:Michelle


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## pammy4501

Maisie and Me said:


> Linda, I did not mean to offend you. In essence I was trying to advocate not demean those with mental health issues. I am sorry it did not come across that way.
> I have worked for 37 years as an ER nurse and have delt with patients with those issues. many, many, many pts. have the ability to make rational decisions but some can not. I guess in my heart of hearts I was trying to understand why a person who was educated here on SM would make that decision because again it is not rarional.
> Please don't take offense. I was not trying to belittle those with Mental health issues.
> I am not trying to stir up trouble but trying to end it.:Flowers 2:Michelle


Michelle, you have such a good heart. But we all know there are people that will fly in the face of reason and do things that are not rational. And then there are people that are manipulators and are basically self centered and do not really care about what others think. Is it mental illness? Maybe. Maybe personalty disorders or something else? But I also know that sometimes you have to put your resources with the greater good.


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## CorkieYorkie

I just wanted to say a big AMEN to those of you talking about this issue... it is one of the major reasons I choose to stick around, because it honestly hurts my heart when I see people buying puppies instead of rescuing... and a very, very small percentage of those who do buy puppies actually go through a reputable breeder...

But I for one admit I haven't been speaking up lately because A.) I was accused of bullying and judging on another Maltese rescue group on FB, and I'd rather not be accused of that here and B.) I've been busy and missed the big controversial blow up this week... not that my statements would have been any different than what was already said.

I agree 100% about the disappointment that comes when someone is 100% AWARE of what BYB/puppy mills are and give them business regardless. I made an earlier post about one of my best friends doing this, though I guess you could say she had an excuse that she lives in Hawaii and bringing dogs in is very complicated and their rescues/shelters are very limited on breeds. I am still disappointed, mostly because she used to actually foster, but I just don't bring it up because what's the point... she knows what's up and what's done is done. Plus, she saw what I wrote (unwittingly on my part!) so she knows how I feel and that's that.

I think we are just different. These issues affect us differently. When I first went to PETA's website, I went vegetarian for a year. When I found out the pet store (Petland) we got our family Yorkie from back in 1999 was the #1 puppy mill pet store in the country, I felt sickened and vowed to rescue all my future dogs. And I am happy to say that I did rescue both of my dogs... I even sometimes feel guilty that I didn't go directly to a high-kill shelter and rescue a dog that was about to be euthanized, but then again, my two can definitely be high-maintenance, aka not everyone would want to deal with their issues.

Sorry, this got all rambly... I mostly wanted to say bravo to those of you sticking up for those homeless dogs who do not have a voice...


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## lydiatug

I'm traveling, so have been a little out of the loop.

Linda, I totally agree with you...if we don't stand for something, we'll fall for anything. We can be respectful, but we must stand strong and educate to the best of our ability!


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## Poppy's mommy

zooeysmom said:


> I think anyone who has worked with rescues feels differently. I cannot and will not ever accept anyone who *knowingly *buys from a puppy mill greeder. And I would disown any of my family members if they did so.


Well that is your opinion.


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## dragonsdawn

Maisie and Me said:


> Because people choose not to get involved in abusive threads does not mean there is a new air of " tolerence". NO one is agreeing that buying from BYB or puppymills is a good thing.
> 
> How you treat your fellow man is as important as how you treat a dog. Love Thy Neighbor is the most important rule. By all means teach and correct and make this forum a shining example of good taste and good information but do it in a decent, repectable manner please.
> 
> Because you were hurt, decieved etc in the past by a BYB or puppymill and choose to advocate for these babies it can be done without jumping down peoples' throats and jumping into the frey like a bunch of sheep with mob mentality . We certainly will have differences of opinion which can be expressed in a tolerent manner for all and not just tolerant for YOUR beliefs.
> 
> You have the power to start making this world a better place, and on this forum. Snide remarks by some, and the public patting each other on the back for short tempered and imature behavior despite that you are calling it fervor and passion needs to be seen for what it is.
> 
> There are people on this forum who by their own admission have mental health issues and this needs to be taken into account. Try reading between the lines before you react. My 2 $


:aktion033:


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## dragonsdawn

Ok i have a question. I had made no bones about my daughters dog being a brb/puppy mill dog... i dont think i ever told you guys that we reported the breeder or not. I hope you dont look down on me for what we did for bentley. My question is would my sister have been considered a byb even though it was only one breeding and not a planned one at that. She didnt sale the puppies but made sure they all went to great homes. Jax the first born went to a home with altruistic son. ( the son has been improving according to the father). Second born is of course my little Zoey. Next was little Annette she went to a college student i worked with and actully helped her and her mom start talking again after 3 years. Last is Snowball he went to the home of an elderly couple and their niece. He has helped helped his dad recover his joy of life after falling and breaking his hip ( he was very depressed and his wife and niece were worried about him just giving up) We still keep in touch with all the puppies forever familys (that is how I know so much about them). I think highly of everyone on this site and would hate to think that how i ended up with my little girl was looked down on. Oh and yes if i ever think of getting another fluff ball it will most likely be a rescue.

Sorry i have listened to alot of people talk over the last year about how and where people get their pups. I dont agree with supporting byb/puppymills, but i also dont agree with attacking people on where they got their pups.Yes state your opinion eveyone has the right to, just dont belittle anyone about their opinion. It is the differences of opinions that makes life interesting.


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## zooeysmom

:smilie_tischkante::smpullhair: Yes, Cindy, I would consider your sister a byb, even though she had one litter and placed the puppies in good homes. The shelters are overflowing with dogs and puppies that need homes. All of the people who adopted your sister's puppies COULD HAVE saved the lives of shelter dogs. But those dogs were killed so that your sister's unplanned puppies could have homes. 

I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful--just stating the cold hard truth. I'm glad you're considering adoption for your next dog. Rescued dogs are the most grateful, loving dogs. 

I agree that diversity makes life interesting, except when it comes to animal welfare. That is an issue where I think everyone should be on the same page--and believe that animal suffering is unacceptable. 

Okay, now I'm taking a vacation from this topic!


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

pammy4501 said:


> Don't go, stay and take back SM. We need people that see reason. I have been personally attacked and called mean for speaking the truth. I attacked no one tonight. Just the truth from a perspective of personal experience.


If one hasn't already ... check out the BYB's FB page that has been part of this recent upset.

All of us who condone BYB's and puppymills, and support rescues ... and are here making it clear that we will speak up to these greeders ... have been labeled "snubs" ... and, at least one SM member ... is labeled by her as "scum". Well, now ... I think those remarks speaks volumes about her character.


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## dragonsdawn

See I am in no way offend by what was said. Yes I was upset with my sister over the breeding. Not to make excuses but the male wasn't suppose to be hers. He was her ex's and HE didn't do anything with him. I personally think not training or properly taking care of you dog is just as bad as byb/puppymills. I just wish more people would educate themselves before you get a pet of any kind.

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## hoaloha

dragonsdawn said:


> See I am in no way offend by what was said. Yes I was upset with my sister over the breeding. Not to make excuses but the male wasn't suppose to be hers. He was her ex's and HE didn't do anything with him. I personally think not training or properly taking care of you dog is just as bad as byb/puppymills. *I just wish more people would educate themselves before you get a pet of any kind.
> *
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You have an open attitude and loving heart. I couldn't agree more with your last sentence. I was certainly guilty of that when I went to a BYB craigslist. Pet ownership should not be taken lightly! but, the hard work is SO worth it in the end. :wub:


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## pammy4501

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> If one hasn't already ... check out the BYB's FB page that has been part of this recent upset.
> 
> All of us who condone BYB's and puppymills, and support rescues ... and are here making it clear that we will speak up to these greeders ... have been labeled "snubs" ... and, at least one SM member ... is labeled by her as "scum". Well, now ... I think those remarks speaks volumes about her character.


I saw that too Marie. She had some very unkind words for SM members.


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## maggieh

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> If one hasn't already ... check out the BYB's FB page that has been part of this recent upset.
> 
> All of us who condone BYB's and puppymills, and support rescues ... and are here making it clear that we will speak up to these greeders ... have been labeled "snubs" ... and, at least one SM member ... is labeled by her as "scum". Well, now ... I think those remarks speaks volumes about her character.


I saw that too - it's really too bad that some people have to resort to name calling.


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## Summergirl73

Honestly their words could not have bothered me less. I would have been concerned if we HAD seen things the same way ~ as it is clear our compass does not point in the same direction.

I did particularly like the one that said You Can't Fix Stupid. Yep....see now... we found something we could agree on lol  !


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## Orla

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> If one hasn't already ... check out the BYB's FB page that has been part of this recent upset.
> 
> All of us who condone BYB's and puppymills, and support rescues ... and are here making it clear that we will speak up to these greeders ... have been labeled "snubs" ... and, at least one SM member ... is labeled by her as "scum". Well, now ... I think those remarks speaks volumes about her character.


I never saw their name mentioned anywhere? Can someone pm it to me? 


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## elly

Orla said:


> I never saw their name mentioned anywhere? Can someone pm it to me?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would also like the name of the greeder.


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## allheart

:w00t: Oh my, forgive me, I just posted my whole story, on the Mission Statement thread. Sorry, if it needs to be moved, no problem. 

Oh my that comment is terrible, and thankfully I did not see it, but unkind words always reflect on the one speaking them, not at all, on who they are speaking about. 

I will share this, YES, it matters so much, where you get your baby. 

And you all can fix stupid, you fixed me 

I always felt in my heart, my gosh, it is so not right, for pet owners to breed their precious pets. I don't judge, but it does break my heart. And believe it or not, some are so in the dark, and don't even realize it's not right. Trust me, on that one. That's why, I refer to some as "home breeders".

I can not even begin to list all the reasons, why it's so important to either rescue a baby, or get your baby from a loving, reputable show breeder.

I can not even begin to tell, or even fully understand, how much goes into breeding, by a reputable breeder. It is a lot of work, but it's a labor of love, and I honestly believe they were called to be a breeder. I honestly, think, it's far more difficult, to be a loving show breeder, then a prospective puppy owner. Imagine, leaving out all the hard work, trusting someone, with your precious baby.

Again, there are so many reasons, to either rescue a precious baby, or get your precious baby, from a loving reputable show breeder. One of the reasons, is you greatly lower the risk, of health issues. That doesn't mean, health issues, won't occur, but you greatly lower the risk. Also, a show breeder, breeds to the standard, of this darling breed.

I also want to share, from my heart, that when you find, that loving show breeder, who not only loves his/her pups, but also all her babies in his/her breeding program, who breeds to the standard, you have struck gold.

Now some may not like this and I do apologize, as I mean no harm, if you have found, a breeder, as I described above, you truly will be blessed with a gorgeous Maltese. I know some may want "tiny" ones, or a baby doll face, but if you find, a breeder, just as I described, I promise you, you will be blessed with a gorgeous Maltese. The breed, is beautiful, and the temperament is incredible. Oh of course, there is nothing wrong with wanting a certain look, but what you truly want, is a Maltese, bred to the standard, the most beautiful breed.

Think about it, when you see, all the darling Maltese in the ring, is there anything more beautiful than that? It takes my breath away. 

So, yes, it does matter where you get your baby, not only for you, but for all the precious babies, out there.

No, Maltese pet owners are not snobs. We all, more than likely have wounds in our heart, before we knew better, from loosing a baby far too soon, we don't want anyone to feel that pain, and then their are the darling rescue angels, who see the end result, see the devastation, and we don't want any more fur babies to suffer.

This comes from someone, who was once in the dark, with two very deep wounds, loosing two "home breeder" babies, one at 7 and one at 8.

So, you can see why I am so grateful to SM and the members, and may that loving enlightment continue.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

Summergirl73 said:


> Honestly their words could not have bothered me less. I would have been concerned if we HAD seen things the same way ~ as it is clear our compass does not point in the same direction.
> 
> I did particularly like the one that said You Can't Fix Stupid. Yep....see now... we found something we could agree on lol  !


Bridget, I respectfully disagree on this one ... because it does bother me that we are being unfairly badmouthed on FB with so many untruths. And, one of the people openly badmouthing our Spoiled Maltese Forum ... is currently a member right here on SM. THAT is not right ... nor is it fair.


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## pammy4501

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Bridget, I respectfully disagree on this one ... because it does bother me that we are being unfairly badmouthed on FB with so many untruths. And, one of the people openly badmouthing our Spoiled Maltese Forum ... is currently a member right here on SM. THAT is not right ... nor is it fair.


Stop being such a snub Sue. (hard to take grammar like that seriously)


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi

pammy4501 said:


> Stop being such a snub Sue. (hard to take grammar like that seriously)


Seriously, I was zeroing in on the untruths of those who are making it sound as though we never do anything ... in regard to speaking up and educating the public on BYB's, puppy mills, and rescues. It matters to me, because I wonder how many people reading those lies about us ... will end up buying BYB dogs. 

Who is Sue? I must be scum for not knowing. And, please excuse my grammar.


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## allheart

OMG, I am so confused. I have not seen any of this on FB. Oh but I trust all your words that these things are being said. But why? 

Yes, I have not been on here for a bit, but if I were to have seen those things on FB, trust me, I would correct them. I am a true example, of joining the SM, completely in the dark, with zero knowledge, and because of the incredible wisdom shared, being educated, all of you standing up, for these precious ones, being their voice, the precious rescues, the precious foster Mommy's, those words posted on FB :blink: are truly beyond my comprehension.

It is so far from the truth. I am more confused than anything. I am beyond confused.


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## Summergirl73

When people are in the wrong they get defensive and use insults because they are not able to back up their prospective with actual facts. It's a BYB's favorite game. Cry foul rather than debate. They can't debate what has been proven time and time again to be bad for the animal population. A BYB at the end of the day is about $. It's really as simple as that.


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## pammy4501

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Seriously, I was zeroing in on the untruths of those who are making it sound as though we never do anything ... in regard to speaking up and educating the public on BYB's, puppy mills, and rescues. It matters to me, because I wonder how many people reading those lies about us ... will end up buying BYB dogs.
> 
> Who is Sue? I must be scum for not knowing. And, please excuse my grammar.


Marie!!! I don't know why I said Sue! I think I got my Snowbody and my Snowballs mixed up! LOL!


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## mysugarbears

sophie said:


> Just my two cents: I totally agree no one should be belittled or bullied and, yes, everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I'm really fed up with the whole tolerance movement - especially in a forum or institution founded on specific beliefs.
> 
> While I would love for everyone to get along, it's not reasonable that we will never hurt anyone's feelings, especially if we stand by our beliefs and right to our opinions.
> 
> Why should anyone have to put their opinions and beliefs on the back burner just so no one hurts anyone else's feelings by questioning their opinions?
> 
> I do believe there are times when tolerance for the sake of someone's feelings is a very bad thing especially if it means diminishing your own beliefs and what you stand for - especially when what you stand for are those who are the truly voiceless - the abused, the neglected, the overbred, the tortured - the one's who rely on us 100%. Tolerance? I don't think so!
> 
> Linda.



Excellent post Linda and i agree 100%!!! :aktion033:


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## zooeysmom

I'm glad I'm not "friends" with any Malt people on FB... As if there isn't enough drama here on SM!


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## Sylie

I don't have much to add, but I want to go on record as saying the I support careful and selective breeding by ethical show breeders. I totally condemn puppymills, pet stores, people who raise dogs for profit, and the ridiculous craze of mixing breeds and calling them designer dogs.

I won't wholeheartedly condemn people who breed their beloved pets, but I certainly do no condone this. There are other reasons, but the fact is that when people breed dogs that are not true to standard, the breed looses it's distinctive characteristics in a short time. The fact is, that before I joined this forum I had never seen (other than at shows) a Maltese who looked like a Maltese. I saw some fifteen pound white dogs who's owners' told me they were Maltese, but they didn't look like Maltese to me. I think that the vast majority of home bred dogs do not represent the breed...from my experience.


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## allheart

Sylie said:


> I don't have much to add, but I want to go on record as saying the I support careful and selective breeding by ethical show breeders. I totally condemn puppymills, pet stores, people who raise dogs for profit, and the ridiculous craze of mixing breeds and calling them designer dogs.
> 
> I won't wholeheartedly condemn people who breed their beloved pets, but I certainly do no condone this. There are other reasons, but the fact is that when people breed dogs that are not true to standard, the breed looses it's distinctive characteristics in a short time. The fact is, that before I joined this forum I had never seen (other than at shows) a Maltese who looked like a Maltese. I saw some fifteen pound white dogs who's owners' told me they were Maltese, but they didn't look like Maltese to me. I think that the vast majority of home bred dogs do not represent the breed...from my experience.


All very true dear Sylvia. And sadly, those that do breed their pets, don't know, the background of their pets, as far as health goes. And so many other reasons. 

Love you.


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## elly

Sylie said:


> I don't have much to add, but I want to go on record as saying the I support careful and selective breeding by ethical show breeders. I totally condemn puppymills, pet stores, people who raise dogs for profit, and the ridiculous craze of mixing breeds and calling them designer dogs.
> 
> I won't wholeheartedly condemn people who breed their beloved pets, but I certainly do no condone this. There are other reasons, but the fact is that when people breed dogs that are not true to standard, the breed looses it's distinctive characteristics in a short time. The fact is, that before I joined this forum I had never seen (other than at shows) a Maltese who looked like a Maltese. I saw some fifteen pound white dogs who's owners' told me they were Maltese, but they didn't look like Maltese to me. I think that the vast majority of home bred dogs do not represent the breed...from my experience.


I agree. The very first time I saw a Maltese that was true to standard was when I picked up Mercedes and saw Theresa's show dogs. I have had people ask me what kind of dog is Mercedes and than tell me they also have a Maltese :blink:this has happened 3 different times. I had a women at the flea market stop me when I had Whitney and tell me she wanted a small Maltese and thought because she paid a lot for her Maltese it would be small and look like Whitney. She bought her girl from the paper. We had a nice chat about show breeders and home breeders.


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## Chardy

I read more than I post but I want to comment on this as well. I lost a beautiful little girl after 14-1/2 years but it was a battle with so many things- Heart Disease took her, but she also had IBD and thyroid issues. I truly believe it was all due to over vaccinating her. Her mom lived to be 18 years old - so I know it had to be vaccinations. 

When I was ready again, I researched every breeder I could find- I ended up traveling from New York State To Texas to get my girl.. I choose a top notch breeder that knew about over vaccinating and that had been breeding and showing for 20 years. That still doesn't guarantee anything but I sure feel better about my decision in hopes of never having to go through what many do my not being educated on all of this. 

I worried because my new little girl was not gaining like I thought she should have. I wasted not a second in getting a Acid blie Test done thanks to this group. I can't imagine having to go through GME etc. I am in support of researching and recommending top breeders that care about this special breed. 

Love, Carol and McC


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## hoaloha

Chardy said:


> I read more than I post but I want to comment on this as well. I lost a beautiful little girl after 14-1/2 years but it was a battle with so many things- Heart Disease took her, but she also had IBD and thyroid issues. I truly believe it was all due to over vaccinating her. Her mom lived to be 18 years old - so I know it had to be vaccinations.
> 
> When I was ready again, I researched every breeder I could find- I ended up traveling from New York State To Texas to get my girl.. I choose a top notch breeder that knew about over vaccinating and that had been breeding and showing for 20 years. That still doesn't guarantee anything but I sure feel better about my decision in hopes of never having to go through what many do my not being educated on all of this.
> 
> I worried because my new little girl was not gaining like I thought she should have. I wasted not a second in getting a Acid blie Test done thanks to this group. I can't imagine having to go through GME etc. I am in support of researching and recommending top breeders that care about this special breed.
> 
> Love, Carol and McC


:goodpost:


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## babycake7

hoaloha said:


> I'm sorry that your friend is going through this. Even the best of breeders can come across a health issue. Your explanation above is no excuse to avoid telling the breeder. The breeder must know in order to adjust their breeding practices and make things right with the pet owner too. The owner should put her own feelings aside and contact the breeder because its for her dog AND FUTURE dogs. The breeder should know which of their lines may carry this problem and it can be avoided in future litters.
> 
> Also, could you start a fresh thread about this? It's a little off topic from the original intent of this thread.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:goodpost::goodpost:

I totally agree with you, Marisa. The breeder DOES need to know if there is a problem at any life stage. Any "meanness" ,perceived or real, on the part of the breeder, while unpleasant, should be secondary to the concern of the future of the dogs the breeder will produce - its our obligations as responsible owners to communicate with the breeders of our fluffs. Unfortunately,our Toy Aussie (who we did get from a show breeder) has some allergy issues as well as some significant anxiety issues. When it all surfaced, I did not hesitate to contact her and tell her what was going on. She was less than pleased to hear there were problems but once it sank in, she was very grateful and continues to keep in close contact with me about our progress with Rocket.


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## Leila'sMommy

I'm just seeing this post and since it's already five pages long - at least from the phone version - I haven't seen all the replies yet. Prior to joining this site, I didn't know the importance of buying from reputable breeders and I have never met anyone who has ever bought any breed from a real breeder. Most either get theirs from BYBs, animal shelters, strays, etc. However, I don't know of anyone getting theirs from the horrible overcrowded puppy mills we see on the news and there aren't any pet stores around here that sell them. PetSmart does have dogs and cats from time to time but they are not bred to sell. I think the dogs and cats actually come from shelters and sometimes shelters do have a day where they bring in kennels of dogs for adoptions. Anyway, I have gotten Leila and several other dogs in the past from what I know now are BYBs. We have been very lucky as our pets have always been very healthy. Maybe it's because the "breeders" we went to did know a lot about the breeds they were selling and raised them, one litter at a time, and only a couple of litters per year, inside their homes. The puppies weren't brought into this world in filthy conditions in a kennel by a worn out mother whose only purpose was to breed. They've always been the family's beloved pet and well cared for. None have ever had websites advertising the puppies. Each one we've bought dogs from has pointed out that they do not do it for a profit and they really don't make any money selling them. Most of the money they sell them for is to cover all the expenses occurred for taking them for check-ups at the vet, immunizations, tails docked (Yorkie), deworming, registration, food, etc. I'm in no way trying to say this is the right way to buy a puppy. It's just how it's usually done around here. Had I come to this site, I would've bought my Maltese from someone in probably in another state from a breeder who is listed on the sites you recommend. But then I would've never gotten to know my precious Leila. My heart breaks for those who haven't been as fortunate and their babies were sickly and I'm so thankful that all of our dogs have always been so healthy. The only thing about Leila not coming from a reputable breeder is that she is larger than what she should be and her coat is more cottony on her body. But couldn't that have happened even with a reputable breeder? No matter how big she is or what her coat looks like, she is still beautiful to me, she has the best personality, she's healthy, and we love her as if she were our skin child. I have been afraid to say much here about where I got her because I didn't want to be scolded. Like I said, I didn't know when I got her what I know now about where you should buy puppies. I always thought I was doing the right thing and as I've said, they've always come from loving homes and have never had any of the diseases that are known for their breeds. The breeders did know alot about their breeds, but just didn't breed for show purposes. However, whenever the time comes for me to buy another Maltese, I will look for what you all say is a reputable breeder. 


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## ckanen2n

Wow! I have not been on SM much lately and just read this entire thread! I don't know a bout the FB post, but have noticed changes here on SM. I am so busy with work and loving my fluffs that I have missed much of the drama. It does get old. I totally agree that we need to maintain our standards on SM. Thanks Marisa for starting this thread and to Pam for starting the mission statement thread.


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## Tashulia25

this is public info and it is just prove my words, it can be good show or not show breeder, and can be bad show and not show breeder(ByB) or even worst puppy mill from show breeder. Pasado’s Seeks Maximum Sentencing in AKC Judge Backyard Breeding Case | Pasados


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## ckanen2n

tashulia25 said:


> this is public info and it is just prove my words, it can be good show or not show breeder, and can be bad show and not show breeder(byb) or even worst puppy mill from show breeder. pasado’s seeks maximum sentencing in akc judge backyard breeding case | pasados


wow!


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## pehirsch

Request:

Have a section on this forum that is dedicated to reputable breeders.

I came to this forum having searched and searched for a reputable breeder after I lost my 11 year old little girl Falcon just 4-5 months ago. Some may remember. I found that this forum was as good as gold however, I was still unable to find someone who really knew a 'good' breeder with puppies. 

I've now come to realize that good breeders have puppies 1-3 times a year with only 1-3 pups in a litter...correct??? Hence, just because I was ready doesn't mean that one was available.

I did find who I think is a reputable breeder, I hope, and yet would love to have a 'go to' on this forum where I point people that are looking or for when I do want to bring another little one into our home. 
A section where those who know can post reputable breeders..and perhaps also who has puppies who have had numerous issues?

It seems this would be one way we could battle poor breeders at the source?

Maybe there is one here already?


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## pehirsch

*Cruel and inhumane*



Tashulia25 said:


> this is public info and it is just prove my words, it can be good show or not show breeder, and can be bad show and not show breeder(ByB) or even worst puppy mill from show breeder. Pasado’s Seeks Maximum Sentencing in AKC Judge Backyard Breeding Case | Pasados


This is completely disgusting. Just like the U.N. Inspectors, the AKC must have some sort of inspection process for breeders....don't "we"???


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## pehirsch

Leila'sMommy said:


> Anyway, I have gotten Leila and several other dogs in the past from what I know now are BYBs. We have been very lucky as our pets have always been very healthy. Maybe it's because the "breeders" we went to did know a lot about the breeds they were selling and raised them, one litter at a time, and only a couple of litters per year, inside their homes. The puppies weren't brought into this world in filthy conditions in a kennel by a worn out mother whose only purpose was to breed. They've always been the family's beloved pet and well cared for. None have ever had websites advertising the puppies. Each one we've bought dogs from has pointed out that they do not do it for a profit and they really don't make any money selling them. Most of the money they sell them for is to cover all the expenses occurred for taking them for check-ups at the vet, immunizations, tails docked (Yorkie), deworming, registration, food, etc. I'm in no way trying to say this is the right way to buy a puppy. It's just how it's usually done around here. Had I come to this site, I would've bought my Maltese from someone in probably in another state from a breeder who is listed on the sites you recommend. But then I would've never gotten to know my precious Leila. My heart breaks for those who haven't been as fortunate and their babies were sickly and I'm so thankful that all of our dogs have always been so healthy. The only thing about Leila not coming from a reputable breeder is that she is larger than what she should be and her coat is more cottony on her body. But couldn't that have happened even with a reputable breeder? No matter how big she is or what her coat looks like, she is still beautiful to me, she has the best personality, she's healthy, and we love her as if she were our skin child. I have been afraid to say much here about where I got her because I didn't want to be scolded. Like I said, I didn't know when I got her what I know now about where you should buy puppies. I always thought I was doing the right thing and as I've said, they've always come from loving homes and have never had any of the diseases that are known for their breeds. The breeders did know alot about their breeds, but just didn't breed for show purposes. However, whenever the time comes for me to buy another Maltese, I will look for what you all say is a reputable breeder.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Love this post Pam.
My little Falcon was from someone in Florida I found from someone in Hawaii when we were in vacation. She was our first Maltese, perfect for us and was not perfect for show. We lost her due to an acute tumor on the spine that was inoperable. My heart ached worse than I remember experiencing before...even going through a divorce...hahaha

My sweet Rascal is from a BYB who says she's been breeding for 30 years. She made me sign a contract saying I wouldn't breed her...I liked that (she also had me sign that I wouldn't show her which I don't understand....anyone?). Having done so much research, I'm thinking since I am not a showgirl, I will go to Metropolitan Maltese Rescue in the future and time will tell I guess.

Right now little Rascal is a joy in our lives.


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## hoaloha

pehirsch said:


> Request:
> 
> Have a section on this forum that is dedicated to reputable breeders.
> 
> I came to this forum having searched and searched for a reputable breeder after I lost my 11 year old little girl Falcon just 4-5 months ago. Some may remember. I found that this forum was as good as gold however, I was still unable to find someone who really knew a 'good' breeder with puppies.
> 
> I've now come to realize that good breeders have puppies 1-3 times a year with only 1-3 pups in a litter...correct??? Hence, just because I was ready doesn't mean that one was available.
> 
> I did find who I think is a reputable breeder, I hope, and yet would love to have a 'go to' on this forum where I point people that are looking or for when I do want to bring another little one into our home.
> A section where those who know can post reputable breeders..and perhaps also who has puppies who have had numerous issues?
> 
> It seems this would be one way we could battle poor breeders at the source?
> 
> Maybe there is one here already?


There is already a whole section on the forum labeled "breeders." Maybe there can be another sticky that clearly indicates the AMA list of breeders. I think making things more user friendly is important 


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## hoaloha

Tashulia25 said:


> this is public info and it is just prove my words, it can be good show or not show breeder, and can be bad show and not show breeder(ByB) or even worst puppy mill from show breeder. Pasado’s Seeks Maximum Sentencing in AKC Judge Backyard Breeding Case | Pasados


I think it's important to remember that not all show breeders are ethical and not all backyard breeders keep dogs in poor conditions. The point is to find an ETHICAL show breeder who you can trust and ideally meet in person. This is why having a good relationship with the breeder is SO important to me. Many ethical show breeders only have few litters a year, but it's very much worth the wait.

The problem with the backyard breeders who love their dogs and not necessarily for profit is that it does not better the Maltese breed. that's why many of these BYB dogs aren't to the Maltese standard in terms of size and structure (conformation), health, and temperament. It's not just about looks.

As for the greedy BYB, of course, it's easy to see why it's wrong. 


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## SammieMom

Chardy said:


> I read more than I post but I want to comment on this as well. I lost a beautiful little girl after 14-1/2 years but it was a battle with so many things- Heart Disease took her, but she also had IBD and thyroid issues. I truly believe it was all due to over vaccinating her. Her mom lived to be 18 years old - so I know it had to be vaccinations.
> 
> When I was ready again, I researched every breeder I could find- I ended up traveling from New York State To Texas to get my girl.. I choose a top notch breeder that knew about over vaccinating and that had been breeding and showing for 20 years. That still doesn't guarantee anything but I sure feel better about my decision in hopes of never having to go through what many do my not being educated on all of this.
> 
> I worried because my new little girl was not gaining like I thought she should have. I wasted not a second in getting a Acid blie Test done thanks to this group. I can't imagine having to go through GME etc. I am in support of researching and recommending top breeders that care about this special breed.
> 
> Love, Carol and McC


:goodpost: Second time around I too ordered a BAT first thing.


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## SammieMom

Having got Sammie from a (what would be considered a nice) BYB before I came here, I came to understand that as sweet as it all seemed, why was she doing this? Why would she make money off 'backs of her females' for dogs that she didnt intend on keeping? For fun, maybe but it's hard to imagine someone doing all the work involved, answering ads, Vet visits, so forth for the joy of it. They make anywhere from 600-1000 a puppy, and many have larger liters. (I'm not sure why that happens, anyone know?) and I also know I can't go by a visit or two as to who owns the parents, and everything that goes on in the home. Many parents float around in one year increments in a BYB network. Some do right thing and keep them when they can no longer breed or many are surrendered free. They are very good at hiding all this when you visit. I figure if they run ads in paper hang up flyers it's advertising!! My neighbor who volunteers at humane society thrift shop came outside one day with a female Maltese in her arms. Some BYB person had brought the sweet girl in. Well, next day she realized she had no teeth and needed a hysterectomy. Long story short, someone adopted sweet girl later, but I have always thought that was a supposed beloved family pet I met "you know where". Money is money, someone had to work for it, in these cases the dogs earn it.


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## pehirsch

*Thanks for all the info*

Its so cool how there is so much great info on this site.

Kudos to those who started/maintain it. 
:aktion033:


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## zooeysmom

hoaloha said:


> I think it's important to remember that not all show breeders are ethical and not all backyard breeders keep dogs in poor conditions. The point is to find an ETHICAL show breeder who you can trust and ideally meet in person.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You make such a good point, Marisa :thumbsup: Not all show breeders are created equal!


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