# Breeders that do all testing



## trvlnut (Sep 14, 2008)

Hi all:
Does anyone know which breeders test for all the problems this breed is prone to? The ones that come to mind is the acid bile test and the luxating patella check. I know I'm missing some.

I have seen that some do DNA tests, but I don't know why this is necessary other than to prove the dog is a Maltese.

TIA


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

You are right on with the DNA test. 

Slowly, slowly I think you will start seeing more breeders doing bile acids. As of right now, its slim to none with the OFA database for luxating patella.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (trvlnut @ Sep 24 2008, 01:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=639840


> Hi all:
> Does anyone know which breeders test for all the problems this breed is prone to? The ones that come to mind is the acid bile test and the luxating patella check. I know I'm missing some.
> 
> I have seen that some do DNA tests, but I don't know why this is necessary other than to prove the dog is a Maltese.
> ...


I think Rhapsody Maltese does. Not sure about the others, but I'm sure some of our recent puppy shoppers will know.

This is a very informative thread:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...c=30005&hl=


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

You can search the OFA database for Patellas....


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Is Foxstone one that's testing, or was it just that one puppy she listed that said it was tested?


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## euphoriamaltese (Oct 7, 2008)

As of right now there is not a DNA test for health problems so if you see someone say that they have DNA tested for health problems that should send up a huge red flag. The tests that are most often done on Maltese are OFA (patella’s) which can only be done at one year of age at the earliest, and are posted on the OFA website. CERF (eyes), although not a serous problem in the breed. There is also a cardiac exam that the vet can do but the exact name escapes me at the moment. And of coarse the blood work of a bile acid test which has to be done pre (fasted) and post (2 hrs after a meal) to mean anything. Some breeders do a CHEM panel and a CBC in addition to the bile acid.

I know for a fact that Tonia of Rhapsody Maltese (the head of the AMA health committee) does these tests and blood work. I also do these tests.

I hope this helps.


Jessica Anderson
Euphoria Maltese
[email protected]


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Please folks, I'm not asking these questions to stir up a fight. They seem like fair questions at this point now that we all know so much more about high bile acids then we did even a year ago. Testing bile acids in breeding practices is only in beginning stages, so there is a lot to be figured out.

Since there is such a high incident of high bile acids in Maltese, what seems to be the way breeders are handling it if the tests come back high? Would they then do the Protein C test to rule out shunt? Do they simply reveal the high tests to a buyer, and probably reduce the sale price? How about breeding dogs they already have that have their championship before they are tested and come up high? Are they removed from the breeding program? I would just shutter to think that some might do away with them or a puppy. I'm sure that is not the case with any reputable breeder.

I know there is still a lot to learn in the future from the researchers about this problem. I think as time goes by and learning accelerates there will be a lot more changes. In the meantime many more of us will be adopting new babies and will want to know how this is being handled at the time we bring a new baby home.

All of us are very thankful for breeders that are willing to talk to us about this and all other known problems we could face with our dogs. We pet owners don't want an adversary relationship with the breeders of our sweet pets. We admire the breeders and showers of our dogs. We all, pet owners and breeders, want the best for the white angels we love, so there should be no bad feelings about health questions.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The current recommendations are not to cull (spay/neuter and place) asymptomatic MVD dogs from breeding programs. If they were all culled, the breeding population would shrink to the detriment of the breed. You get your numbers and you try to be as wise with your breeding decisions as possible (ie don't breed 2 dogs with higher numbers together, try to breed to a normal stud, etc.). 

Asymptomatic MVD dogs are perfectly healthy pets in almost all cases. I would not expect to pay any less for one.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 11:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646870


> The current recommendations are not to cull (spay/neuter and place) asymptomatic MVD dogs from breeding programs. If they were all culled, the breeding population would shrink to the detriment of the breed. You get your numbers and you try to be as wise with your breeding decisions as possible (ie don't breed 2 dogs with higher numbers together, try to breed to a normal stud, etc.).
> 
> Asymptomatic MVD dogs are perfectly healthy pets in almost all cases. I would not expect to pay any less for one.[/B]


Is this the official AMA position on the subject? Is there one?


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## MaltiLuv (Sep 26, 2008)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Oct 7 2008, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646921


> QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 11:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646870





> The current recommendations are not to cull (spay/neuter and place) asymptomatic MVD dogs from breeding programs. If they were all culled, the breeding population would shrink to the detriment of the breed. You get your numbers and you try to be as wise with your breeding decisions as possible (ie don't breed 2 dogs with higher numbers together, try to breed to a normal stud, etc.).
> 
> Asymptomatic MVD dogs are perfectly healthy pets in almost all cases. I would not expect to pay any less for one.[/B]


Is this the official AMA position on the subject? Is there one?
[/B][/QUOTE]
At this time I do not *think* there is one.

~Angie


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

I don't think that there is a "high" incidence of bile acids occurring in Maltese. I think because people who are experiencing this situation is seeking information and the world wide webb (www) makes it appear to be so. People from all over the world come to this site and talk about bile acids, liver shunt and other health problems, so it seems there is more going on than really is. Breeding dogs is not just putting two dogs together and ta da you have beautiful genetically healthy dogs. There is much much more to it. Life has it's realities and the breeder must be able to do what they think is the right thing to do when puppies have health issues. JMO

Tina


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Tina, you don't think estimates of 70% of the breed being affected is not a high incidence? What's your definition of high?

Edited to add: That figure was from Dr. Center's seminar at last year's national. If you read back through MaryH's Bile Acids thread pinned on the health board, it is quoted there as well.


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

This article was brought up on another forum that I'm a member on. It's dated but shows that Maltese seem to test higher in general in case studies. 

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...233410/abstract 

EDIT to add:

Here is an abstract of a study done regarding Maltese and Bile Acids. You
can read the entire study here: http://www3. interscience. wiley
com/journal/ 119233410/ abstract? CRETRY=1& SRETRY=0 
ABSTRACT 
SUMMARY: Post-prandial serum bile acid concentrations were measured in 200
Maltese dogs in an attempt to identify those with subclinical portosystemic
shunts. Five of these were later shown to have hepatic pathology or abnormal
liver function. In the other 195 Maltese bile acid concentrations ranged
from 1 to 362 µmol.L-1 (mean ± SD, 70 ±50 µmol.L-1; median, 65.0 µmol.L-1).
Of these, 79% were above the reference range (0 to 31 µmol.L-1) established
from 23 mixed-breed control dogs. It was therefore not possible to determine
the prevalence of subclinical portosystemic shunts on the basis of bile acid
determinations. 
Further investigation of liver function was performed to investigate why
bile acid concentrations were increased in these dogs. Rectal ammonia
tolerance tests were normal in 102 of 106 Maltese tested and liver samples
(11 dogs) and plasma biochemistry profiles (9 dogs) demonstrated no
significant hepatic disease or dysfunction. 
Of 2 Maltese with hyperammonaemia after administration of ammonium chloride,
one had a large congenital portosystemic shunt that was confirmed at surgery
In the other there were no macroscopic portosystemic communications, but a
liver biopsy showed histological changes consistent with microscopic
portovascular dysplasia. 
Total serum bile acid concentrations were consistently lower when assessed
by highperformance liquid chromatography than by an enzymatic
spectrophotometric method. This discrepancy was substantially larger in
Maltese than in control dogs, suggesting the presence of an additional
reacting substance in the serum of Maltese dogs.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (LuvMyFurbaby @ Oct 7 2008, 02:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647010


> This article was brought up on another forum that I'm a member on. It's dated but shows that Maltese seem to test higher in general in case studies.
> 
> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...233410/abstract
> 
> ...


Maggie, the date on that abstract from Australia is 1994. If this info was known 14 yr. ago I'm sure Dr. Center and others here in the states that have been studying this problem knew about this study. Surely if it was proven fact that it is just some other enzyme in the Malteses' blood that causes a high bile acid test, and that there is a better type bile acid test, it would have (has) been implemented by now. It would be interesting to have Dr. Center's synopsis of that study and what has happened since then.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 04:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646998


> Tina, you don't think estimates of 70% of the breed being affected is not a high incidence? What's your definition of high?
> 
> Edited to add: That figure was from Dr. Center's seminar at last year's national. If you read back through MaryH's Bile Acids thread pinned on the health board, it is quoted there as well.[/B]



Where do the stats come from? Surely there are many backyard breeders and puppymill dogs grouped into that number, in which case, of course, you will see a higher incidence since there is little, if any, consideration given to the breeding program of these dogs.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Dr. Center told me when I took my dog to her a few years back that the Tisdall, et al article from Australia HYPOTHESIZED the chemical thing. They never showed why there were elevated nor did anyone ever discover the hypothesized chemical in the blood. She said all it showed was a lot of dogs have elevated values. She also pointed out it was published before she first published in MVD in 1995, so that wasn't a choice of diagnosis. 

From my personal experience, reputable breeders are just as affected by MVD/shunts as are non-reputable. Logically, the inbreeding and linebreeding on a potentially dominant trait is not going to make it go away or lessen in in reputable programs. MVD is a relatively new diagnosis that many vets are not familiar with. How many people have vets who would say elevated bile acids in a Malt are still normal? I'd be willing to bet a large number. 

The bottom line is nobody is exempt. I purchased a show dog from a very reputable kennel. Well guess what weren't we all, myself and the breeders, SHOCKED when the dog was sick and had MVD/IBD/eosinophilic hepatic venule inflammation and it was genetic. The same lines produced several shunts before the gravity of the situation was realized.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (CuteCosyNToy @ Oct 7 2008, 05:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647043


> QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 04:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646998





> Tina, you don't think estimates of 70% of the breed being affected is not a high incidence? What's your definition of high?
> 
> Edited to add: That figure was from Dr. Center's seminar at last year's national. If you read back through MaryH's Bile Acids thread pinned on the health board, it is quoted there as well.[/B]



Where do the stats come from? Surely there are many backyard breeders and puppymill dogs grouped into that number, in which case, of course, you will see a higher incidence since there is little, if any, consideration given to the breeding program of these dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]

These stats came from Dr. Center's seminar.


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## euphoriamaltese (Oct 7, 2008)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Oct 7 2008, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646921


> QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 11:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646870





> The current recommendations are not to cull (spay/neuter and place) asymptomatic MVD dogs from breeding programs. If they were all culled, the breeding population would shrink to the detriment of the breed. You get your numbers and you try to be as wise with your breeding decisions as possible (ie don't breed 2 dogs with higher numbers together, try to breed to a normal stud, etc.).
> 
> Asymptomatic MVD dogs are perfectly healthy pets in almost all cases. I would not expect to pay any less for one.[/B]


Is this the official AMA position on the subject? Is there one?
[/B][/QUOTE]

There is not an official AMA position on the subject.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 09:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647179


> QUOTE (CuteCosyNToy @ Oct 7 2008, 05:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647043





> QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 04:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646998





> Tina, you don't think estimates of 70% of the breed being affected is not a high incidence? What's your definition of high?
> 
> Edited to add: That figure was from Dr. Center's seminar at last year's national. If you read back through MaryH's Bile Acids thread pinned on the health board, it is quoted there as well.[/B]



Where do the stats come from? Surely there are many backyard breeders and puppymill dogs grouped into that number, in which case, of course, you will see a higher incidence since there is little, if any, consideration given to the breeding program of these dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]

These stats came from Dr. Center's seminar.
[/B][/QUOTE]


No, I'm asking where the dogs come from who are counted to add up to this 70 percentile. Are they all from reputable breeders? Are they from byb and mills? What's the percentage there? I do think it's important as line breeding can keep some things out as well as in and may be a good thing in some lines. I'd just like to know more about where the dogs come from to get these stats.


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## euphoriamaltese (Oct 7, 2008)

QUOTE (CuteCosyNToy @ Oct 7 2008, 05:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647043


> QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 04:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646998





> Tina, you don't think estimates of 70% of the breed being affected is not a high incidence? What's your definition of high?
> 
> Edited to add: That figure was from Dr. Center's seminar at last year's national. If you read back through MaryH's Bile Acids thread pinned on the health board, it is quoted there as well.[/B]



Where do the stats come from? Surely there are many backyard breeders and puppymill dogs grouped into that number, in which case, of course, you will see a higher incidence since there is little, if any, consideration given to the breeding program of these dogs.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The did not all come from backyard breeders and puppymills. There are a few breeders that are perticipating in her study. The key thing is that more breeders not be so scared and perticipate. Dr Center wants whole familes of dogs to test. The biggest problem with doing the test is what you are feeding for the post test. The whole question of what constitutes a meal. It should be low in fat because fat messes up the tests. I do chicken baby sticks. They are pure protein and that is what you are testing, how well the liver is processing protein. High fat WILL MESS UP YOUR #'s.

Jessica 
Euphoria Maltese


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## trvlnut (Sep 14, 2008)

OP here. Thanks for jumping in Jessica. This thread was a little stuck until you offered your insight. 

I have contacted many breeders and most don't test. Most are willing to test if I pay for it. I did speak with a breeder who mentioned that the Maltese breed have higher numbers than normal. I thought that wasn't correct so I'm glad JMM (sorry forgot your name) stated that it shouldn't be high.

In addition to Rhapsody and Euphoria (thanks Jessica), Pashes stated that they also bile acid test their dogs. Pashes includes the test in the dog's price which I thought was really great. It makes me think that they are really trying to breed healthy dogs. I also want to use a breeder that tests all her dogs since her vet will know what to feed the dog. I may be wrong here, but those who don't test regularly may not know this.


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## euphoriamaltese (Oct 7, 2008)

QUOTE (trvlnut @ Oct 8 2008, 12:33 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647257


> OP here. Thanks for jumping in Jessica. This thread was a little stuck until you offered your insight.
> 
> I have contacted many breeders and most don't test. Most are willing to test if I pay for it. I did speak with a breeder who mentioned that the Maltese breed have higher numbers than normal. I thought that wasn't correct so I'm glad JMM (sorry forgot your name) stated that it shouldn't be high.
> 
> In addition to Rhapsody and Euphoria (thanks Jessica), Pashes stated that they also bile acid test their dogs. Pashes includes the test in the dog's price which I thought was really great. It makes me think that they are really trying to breed healthy dogs. I also want to use a breeder that tests all her dogs since her vet will know what to feed the dog. I may be wrong here, but those who don't test regularly may not know this.[/B]


I think the reason that Dr center says that 70 to 80% of maltese have elevated Bile Acids is because she is working with a small group of dogs that are very related. She does not have different bloodlines. 
Also we had a trial and error period with what to feed with the tests and I cant express enough IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE FEEDING FOR THE POST.
We used Frozen Bil Jac for a couple of tests just because it is easy to feed the dogs love it. We fed what was a normal meal for our dogs. When we got the test back it was OMG high. So we redid the test with a smaller amount of Bil Jac and it broug the test # down a great deal but it was still very high. So we contacted the lab that does the testing to see what they recommed. They said use a food with low fat because if their is fat in the blood the test will be no good. They said for a dog the size of a maltese that they should have 2 to 3 table spoons of food with low to no fat content. So we desided to use chicken baby sticks because they will eat them, they are all protien, and no fat, we use 3. The dog that was being tested came back with a 2 pre and a 5 or 6 post. With any test their has to be a medium that is the same. What they eat for the post test makes all the difference. The one thing that consernes me about Dr center's study is that their is no regularity with what is fed or how much. She just says a meal.

Just something to think about.

Jessica
Euphoria Maltese


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## malteezmommy (Aug 28, 2006)

It is also my understanding that Maltese could have a higher bile acid test. I have heard this before from breeders. If food is a factor, as posted, then it would render the test useless beacause how would we know which food to feed or not to feed. I am not sure at what age would be good to test and at what age the test would be more accurate. I am not sure how much information a bile acid test could give you at a young age and if results could potentially change with time. As we all age our bodies mature so wouldn't it make more send to test a mature adult vs a puppy?
Lastly, if a breeder has never had these types of problems why would they test? 

If there is a vet in this forum I would love to hear their opinion on this matter.

I am curious if these breeder who test provide the test results to their new buyers. 

JMO and looking for real answers too.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

There was no magic secret about fatty blood samples giving incorrect results. Hemolyzed samples also should not be used. This is also true for many other lab tests. Don't leave the vet until they've spun down your sample if these factors are important for your test results. 

Dr. Center specifically stated at her seminar to use a low fat meal.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (malteezmommy @ Oct 8 2008, 09:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647325


> It is also my understanding that Maltese could have a higher bile acid test. I have heard this before from breeders. If food is a factor, as posted, then it would render the test useless beacause how would we know which food to feed or not to feed. I am not sure at what age would be good to test and at what age the test would be more accurate. I am not sure how much information a bile acid test could give you at a young age and if results could potentially change with time. As we all age our bodies mature so wouldn't it make more send to test a mature adult vs a puppy?
> Lastly, if a breeder has never had these types of problems why would they test?
> 
> If there is a vet in this forum I would love to hear their opinion on this matter.
> ...


We had a wonderful discussion on this subject awhile back. SM's Dr. Jaimie, who is a vet, particpated.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...p;hl=bile+acids


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

"I am curious if these breeder who test provide the test results to their new buyers. "

I bought our Summer from Pashes in the Spring and she did give us a copy of the bile test.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

This about *what* you feed before a test is new to me. Shoni was tested twice at about 6 mo. of age (because I wanted to know before he had anesthetic for neuter). The first one was totally screwy. The pre # was way high and the post # was way low. I suspected the lab didn't know what they were doing (you'll find most vets & their techs don't know how to do it) and screwed it up, so they repeated a week later. I asked about *what* to feed before doing the 2nd test (see this post on Dec. '07) and was told "his usual meal", also in that thread. So I used his canned puppy food that probably had high fat. The vet just said "anything", just feed something to get the gallbladder working. That test was high, pre 18.4, post 57.7.

I've been told here that it would not do any good to test again now that he is an adult. Is that still the theory?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Oct 8 2008, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647386


> This about *what* you feed before a test is new to me. Shoni was tested twice at about 6 mo. of age (because I wanted to know before he had anesthetic for neuter). The first one was totally screwy. The pre # was way high and the post # was way low. I suspected the lab didn't know what they were doing (you'll find most vets & their techs don't know how to do it) and screwed it up, so they repeated a week later. I asked about *what* to feed before doing the 2nd test (see this post on Dec. '07) and was told "his usual meal", also in that thread. So I used his canned puppy food that probably had high fat. The vet just said "anything", just feed something to get the gallbladder working. That test was high, pre 18.4, post 57.7.
> 
> I've been told here that it would not do any good to test again now that he is an adult. Is that still the theory?[/B]


I called Antech, a lab who does the test. If the serum was not lipemic or hemolyzed, they said the results are accurate. If you question the results, run the test again. Just remember the numbers will never be the same, but abnormal is abnormal (>25).


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 8 2008, 09:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647401


> QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Oct 8 2008, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647386





> This about *what* you feed before a test is new to me. Shoni was tested twice at about 6 mo. of age (because I wanted to know before he had anesthetic for neuter). The first one was totally screwy. The pre # was way high and the post # was way low. I suspected the lab didn't know what they were doing (you'll find most vets & their techs don't know how to do it) and screwed it up, so they repeated a week later. I asked about *what* to feed before doing the 2nd test (see this post on Dec. '07) and was told "his usual meal", also in that thread. So I used his canned puppy food that probably had high fat. The vet just said "anything", just feed something to get the gallbladder working. That test was high, pre 18.4, post 57.7.
> 
> I've been told here that it would not do any good to test again now that he is an adult. Is that still the theory?[/B]


I called Antech, a lab who does the test. If the serum was not lipemic or hemolyzed, they said the results are accurate. If you question the results, run the test again. Just remember the numbers will never be the same, but abnormal is abnormal (>25). 
[/B][/QUOTE]

How would we know it it were lipemic or hemolyzed? So it is anybody's guess if a test is accurate?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Oct 8 2008, 12:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647433


> How would we know it it were lipemic or hemolyzed? So it is anybody's guess if a test is accurate?[/B]


Your vet should note it after they spin the sample (and in the case of bile acids not waste your money and send the sample. I had that happen to me once when *I* didn't check before it went in the baggie to go out. After you spin the sample, the serum should not look milky/fatty or be red (hemolyzed) for a bile acid assay. The lab should also note it on their report, but sometimes do not. 


I just wanted to add on to my previous posts. Regardless of whether 70% of ALL Maltese or 50% of BYB/mill and 20% reputable breeder or whatever... The bottom line is do not think you are exempt as a breeder or pet owner from running into MVD/shunts. Be knowledgeable and, as a breeder, know what you have. If you don't test, you don't know. Show lines do produce these issues (again, 20% or 80%, the issues are in there and ANY % warrants active interest in testing and eliminating negative traits). And since testing has not been done in the past, you cannot know what was behind your dogs. 

I buy from reputable breeders because I expect to have a healthier dog than my first BYB/mill dog. In ONE case I did not experience that. Some of my others may have random issues, but not major, deadly genetic ones. In no way do I think reputable breeders are purposefully breeding these things...but its time to put an effort into purposefully NOT breeding them. Just my opinion.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

Jessica - thank you for weighing in on this. Thank you too, Jackie! 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only real concern for breeders is if they have 2 dogs that produce a liver shunt, they should not be bred any longer, correct? MVD dogs are okay to keep in a breeding program. MVD puppies are okay and live long healthy lives generally. 

I do agree that it is important to diagnose MVD early in a maltese' life to reduce unnecessary and invasive procedures if the dog eventually has some sort of illness. Unfortunately, vets all too often jump to the "it must be a liver shunt" dx when faced with a toy breed with health issues. 

However, for breeders, if the primary concern is eliminating liver shunts from breeding programs (in dams, sires and puppies), then won't it be less expensive (and quicker results) for breeders to test their breeding stock and new puppies for normal liver function using the Protein C test?


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## Luna'sMom (Oct 7, 2007)

I read something recently that breeding two MVD dogs together can produce puppies with MVD and Shunts, Just MVD or Just shunts - maybe that isn't asymptomatic MVD dogs though :mellow: 
There needs to be alot more testing done and we really need some scientists to come forward and start a full-time rigorous study - the lab next to mine is working on genetic diseases in Border Collies and have put a grant in to test for other diseases in other breeds...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Luna'sMom @ Oct 8 2008, 07:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647652


> I read something recently that breeding two MVD dogs together can produce puppies with MVD and Shunts, Just MVD or Just shunts - maybe that isn't asymptomatic MVD dogs though :mellow:
> There needs to be alot more testing done and we really need some scientists to come forward and start a full-time rigorous study - the lab next to mine is working on genetic diseases in Border Collies and have put a grant in to test for other diseases in other breeds...[/B]


Dr. Center is currently looking for a genetic marker for liver shunts with the help of an AKC grant.

http://www.yorkiefoundation.org/purina1.pdf


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Dr. Center is working on the genetics. 

We aren't still breeding asymptomatic MVD dogs because they're clear from producing problems. Its because they are healthy dogs and if we threw all of them out of the breeding pool, we would have a very narrow pool that would be unhealthy for the breed in so many otherways. Holding onto those dogs is just the best approach overall to take for the breed as a whole until we know the genetics of this trait.


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## puppy (Jul 23, 2008)

If the sample shouldn't look milky/fatty or red, what should it look like? I would think a blood sample would be red, wouldn't it? 



QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 8 2008, 03:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647476


> QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Oct 8 2008, 12:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647433





> How would we know it it were lipemic or hemolyzed? So it is anybody's guess if a test is accurate?[/B]


Your vet should note it after they spin the sample (and in the case of bile acids not waste your money and send the sample. I had that happen to me once when *I* didn't check before it went in the baggie to go out. After you spin the sample, the serum should not look milky/fatty or be red (hemolyzed) for a bile acid assay. The lab should also note it on their report, but sometimes do not. 


I just wanted to add on to my previous posts. Regardless of whether 70% of ALL Maltese or 50% of BYB/mill and 20% reputable breeder or whatever... The bottom line is do not think you are exempt as a breeder or pet owner from running into MVD/shunts. Be knowledgeable and, as a breeder, know what you have. If you don't test, you don't know. Show lines do produce these issues (again, 20% or 80%, the issues are in there and ANY % warrants active interest in testing and eliminating negative traits). And since testing has not been done in the past, you cannot know what was behind your dogs. 

I buy from reputable breeders because I expect to have a healthier dog than my first BYB/mill dog. In ONE case I did not experience that. Some of my others may have random issues, but not major, deadly genetic ones. In no way do I think reputable breeders are purposefully breeding these things...but its time to put an effort into purposefully NOT breeding them. Just my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Luna'sMom (Oct 7, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 9 2008, 12:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647715


> Dr. Center is working on the genetics.
> 
> We aren't still breeding asymptomatic MVD dogs because they're clear from producing problems. Its because they are healthy dogs and if we threw all of them out of the breeding pool, we would have a very narrow pool that would be unhealthy for the breed in so many otherways. Holding onto those dogs is just the best approach overall to take for the breed as a whole until we know the genetics of this trait.[/B]


I understand what your saying - and genepool really is a big problem in purebred dogs  The important thing to to NOT breed two MVD dogs together - instead use a "normal" dam or stud - atleast that is my understanding


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

For the bile acid assay, the blood is drawn and placed in a plain red top tube. It is allowed to sit and clot. Then it is spun in a centrifuge. The serum that is on top after being spun down should be mostly clear. Red serum means the sample is hemolyzed (the red blood cells popped, often due to a traumatic blood draw). White/milky serum means the sample was fatty (to avoid this we usually draw fasted blood samples or, in the case of bile acids, avoid fatty meals). Yellow serum (icteric) would indicate a liver issue (primary or secondary to another disease). 

The serum is removed and placed in another red top tube to be sent to the lab (so the serum and the "chunk" of blood cells at the bottom do not mix back together).


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (Luna'sMom @ Oct 8 2008, 11:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647797


> I understand what your saying - and genepool really is a big problem in purebred dogs  The important thing to to NOT breed two MVD dogs together - instead use a "normal" dam or stud - atleast that is my understanding[/B]


Well...it is not quite that simple. Breeding an affected to a normal does not ensure normal pups. Seems like the genetics for this trait are quite complex (likely a dominant trait with incomplete penetrance). You just have to know what you have and what you produce and try to make the best decisions (ie breeding to a normal dog), understanding there is no guarantee. I think awareness is the biggest thing at this point.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Oct 7 2008, 04:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=646998


> Tina, you don't think estimates of 70% of the breed being affected is not a high incidence? What's your definition of high?
> 
> Edited to add: That figure was from Dr. Center's seminar at last year's national. If you read back through MaryH's Bile Acids thread pinned on the health board, it is quoted there as well.[/B]


This is from Mary H. on Sept, 2007
QUOTE


> Some other things I learned from Dr. Center, having spent countless hours with her at Cornell, having had many telephone calls and emails with her, and having arranged for her to speak at our National Specialty and then spending several hours with her at the Specialty, both at her seminar, and before and after the seminar: *(1) 70% or more of all Maltese have greater than normal bile acid numbers;* *(2) very few Maltese have actual liver shunts (the theory is that most of the shunt dogs are reabsorbed in utero);* (3) most MVD dogs live totally normal lives and live to be as old as non-MVD dogs. Dr. Center's recommendation to breeders at the Specialty seminar were (1) do NOT spay/neuter everything in a breeding program with higher than normal numbers; (2) bile acid test sires and dams before breeding so that you know what you are dealing with and can make some informed choices; (3) bile acid test every puppy before you sell it.[/B]


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Tina, ah, I see what you are saying...actual shunts. MVD and shunting are connected genetically so we can't ignore either.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (tamizami @ Oct 8 2008, 05:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647547


> However, for breeders, if the primary concern is eliminating liver shunts from breeding programs (in dams, sires and puppies), then won't it be less expensive (and quicker results) for breeders to test their breeding stock and new puppies for normal liver function using the Protein C test?[/B]


Hi Tami,

The Protein C test is really a diagnostic tool to be used in conjunction with the bile acid test. When bile acid results come back high and there is concern that "something" might be going on, then following up with a Protein C test would be a good idea. Low Protein C activity occurs in many dogs with liver shunt (greater than 90%) as well as in dogs with severe forms of acquired (not genetic) liver disease, but less commonly in dogs with MVD. Low Protein C activity alone might tell you that something is wrong with the liver but won't tell you what. High bile acid numbers might tell you something is wrong with the liver but won't tell you what. And normal Protein C activity alone still would not tell you if you have an MVD dog. When bile acid results are high, many vets will suggest followup testing, anywhere from contrast imaging to liver biopsies. The Protein C test is an inexpensive, noninvasive test that will tell you that a dog with high bile acids and normal Protein C activity does not have a shunt more than 90% of the time. Does that mean that every dog with higher than normal bile acid results should then have a Protein C test? I, personally, would make my decision based on each individual dog. I have one with higher than normal bile acid values. I did not run a Protein C test because bloodwork is normal, weight is good, healthy, active, alert, normal in all respects. If, instead, I had concerns about any of the foregoing then I would have run a Protein C test.

Hope this answers your question.

MaryH


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

Does any one know if Divine does any testing on their maltese?

Briana


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## aggiemom99 (Dec 3, 2007)

QUOTE (malteezmommy @ Oct 8 2008, 08:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647325


> It is also my understanding that Maltese could have a higher bile acid test. I have heard this before from breeders. If food is a factor, as posted, then it would render the test useless beacause how would we know which food to feed or not to feed. I am not sure at what age would be good to test and at what age the test would be more accurate. I am not sure how much information a bile acid test could give you at a young age and if results could potentially change with time. As we all age our bodies mature so wouldn't it make more send to test a mature adult vs a puppy?
> Lastly, if a breeder has never had these types of problems why would they test?
> 
> If there is a vet in this forum I would love to hear their opinion on this matter.
> ...


YES. :yes: My breeder did. I purchased my Lexie from EuphoriaMaltese. Jessica provided me a copy of Lexie's test results from her vet which I in turn took to my vet for Lexie's first exam. Rhapsody Maltese also does testing.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Oct 14 2008, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=650312


> Does any one know if Divine does any testing on their maltese?
> 
> Briana[/B]


Angie (Divine) and I had a long discussion about this last month and yes, she does bile acid testing on all of her dogs in her breeding program. Hope that helps!


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## Rhapsody Maltese (Nov 16, 2005)

Unfortunately, the concept of health testing is a much easier concept to talk about than to implement for a National Breed Club like the American Maltese Association. The AMA's Health Committee has been working on this for a while now. We have unfortunately run into some road blocks that we are working towards overcoming. 

OFA does provide a results database as well as a testing protocal for veterinarians to follow to screen our dogs for Patellar Luxation as well as Cardiac Screening by either Asculation or Echocardiographic Exam. They also provide a registry for other health issues that can sometime affect Maltese to a much lesser extent - Congential Deafness, Hip Dysplasia, Legg-Clave Perthes, Elbow Dysplasia, Sebaceous Adenitis and Thyroid testing. They provide a registry for a few other DNA screened tests but these are not relevant to Maltese at this time.

Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) provides a testing protocal and a results database for heritable eye disease.

Once we are given more information IN SOME FORM of published work on Bile Acid Testing, to educate and back up our breeders, then we will be much more able to work at having an official "recommended health testing protocal" that includes Bile Acid Testing. We need a published testing protocal as well as a published results evaluation - ie - what does MVD "mean" to the overall health and well being of a diagnosed MVD dog? We are _told_ MVD is normally (99% of the time) asymptomatic and the dog will have no ill affects from having MVD, but we need this IN WRITING. This will help educate breeders on how to breed their MVD dogs and educate pet owners alike, to not be afraid of owning a MVD dog. 

At this time, the AMA Health Committee is working on formulating a Recommended Health Testing protocal for our breed. The AMA Health Committee has to make sure that all avenues are explored before we make an official recommendation. This is a huge responsibility. To hurry the decision making process could cause a huge problem for all involved.

As a breeder, I do have my dogs in my breeding program screened for health concerns that "I believe are relevant to the breed". My vet performs a general health check on each one of my dogs every time my dogs happen to go to the vet (ie basic examination of eyes, ears, weight, condition, teeth, etc), this is documented each time so that we have a reference on the condition of my dogs from visit to visit. In addtion, I have my vet examine my dogs' hearts by way of an Ascualtion Exam and have her physically check my dogs] patellas every time I take them to her office. I run a CBC/Chem Panel and both a Pre and Post Bile Acid test on each dog I keep in my breeding program. I also believe in CERF testing and plan to slowly start testing my dogs in my breeding program. This is merely MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION that I have developed through my own research and information provided to me by my veterinarian. I have my vet screen my puppies around 12 weeks for relevant health issues that can be screened for at 12 weeks of age - ie basic health check up - basic heart checkup, patellas and CBC/Chem Panel/Pre & Post Bile Acid testing. If I had an elevated Bile Acid Result, I would follow up with a Protein C test.

*** Note ... please be careful of people advertising "bile acid testing" that do not have both a PRE and a Post Bile Acid Test performed. Doing only one or the other does not give you complete information. A dog can a have a normal Pre level result and then have an elevated Post level or vice versa .... to have only only level tested is not enough information to be able to ascertain as to the actual functionality of the liver of the dog.

In no way, do I feel that my opinions are the only "right" ones to have. I work with other breeders that do not agree with my opinions and I respect their right to make their own decisions about how they handle health testing with their own personal dogs.

Health Screening cannot eliminate the possibility of having a health issue occur. Health Testing is merely a tool that can be used to keep yourself educated about the current health of your individual dogs, so that you can make an educated decision about whether you want to breed your dog and what concerns may need to be addressed to make the best decision in breeding your dogs.

I look forward to a time when we have even more information provided on MVD/Liver Shunt and Bile Acid Testing from the Specialists that are dedicating their time to reseaching these health issues. I think that will help settle much of the confusion about this topic.

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

*Thanks Tonia,  

You are always a wealth of wonderful information. Your taking valuable time out to post with us is much appreciated.

~Carole~*


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Thank you Tonia for your time and hard work with the AMA on these issues. I am excited that at last the AMA is active in these matters. I look forward to the day when there are true dependable requirements for testing (and the results) of all health issues connected to genetics in our breed.

Thank you also for having a breeding program we can count on to be forth coming and in the fore front with health.
Dee


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## malteezmommy (Aug 28, 2006)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Oct 10 2008, 01:11 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=648303


> QUOTE (tamizami @ Oct 8 2008, 05:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=647547





> However, for breeders, if the primary concern is eliminating liver shunts from breeding programs (in dams, sires and puppies), then won't it be less expensive (and quicker results) for breeders to test their breeding stock and new puppies for normal liver function using the Protein C test?[/B]


Hi Tami,

The Protein C test is really a diagnostic tool to be used in conjunction with the bile acid test. When bile acid results come back high and there is concern that "something" might be going on, then following up with a Protein C test would be a good idea. Low Protein C activity occurs in many dogs with liver shunt (greater than 90%) as well as in dogs with severe forms of acquired (not genetic) liver disease, but less commonly in dogs with MVD. Low Protein C activity alone might tell you that something is wrong with the liver but won't tell you what. High bile acid numbers might tell you something is wrong with the liver but won't tell you what. And normal Protein C activity alone still would not tell you if you have an MVD dog. When bile acid results are high, many vets will suggest followup testing, anywhere from contrast imaging to liver biopsies. The Protein C test is an inexpensive, noninvasive test that will tell you that a dog with high bile acids and normal Protein C activity does not have a shunt more than 90% of the time. Does that mean that every dog with higher than normal bile acid results should then have a Protein C test? I, personally, would make my decision based on each individual dog. I have one with higher than normal bile acid values. I did not run a Protein C test because bloodwork is normal, weight is good, healthy, active, alert, normal in all respects. If, instead, I had concerns about any of the foregoing then I would have run a Protein C test.

Hope this answers your question.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]
From what you are saying it sounds like it is very hard to get an answer from any of these tests and that you really don't know there is a problem until the dog shows symptoms. It sounds like no matter what you test for it still doesn't eliminated the possibility.
Just an observation


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