# Westminter winner, did you see how handler picked him up? By his arms



## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

I saw the Westminster winner, a cute wire fox terrier,I was shocked by how he picked him up, by his arms. My husband's aunt used to do that and it dislocated her terrier's shoulders.
We never pick our babies up that way....


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## sdubose (Feb 21, 2012)

I saw that Michelle, and was thinking the same thing.


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## Ann Mother (Dec 18, 2013)

Was amazing but he is a big guy in a suit which probably accounted for it. Let's hope. My late wire fox was breed to a fox terrier @ his house. He lives in Riverside, CA. He has been a top handler for terriers for years. I can't help wondering when told that my dog would win if shown by Gabriel. I finished her myself. I do not see a difference in owner handler & the professional handler. It is the dog that counts.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Having watched Best in Show live and seeing Gabriel and Sky show many times, all I can say is that I know Gabriel would not have done anything that would have hurt Sky. When I saw him start to pick Sky up by the legs then switched to shoulders, I knew people were going to jump on it just because of how it looked, even if it did not hurt the dog. Would I put a dog with Gabriel? ABSOLUTELY. If I won best in show at Westminster, I probably would not even remember picking up my dog!!


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Maybe he was so overcome by the moment, Sky didn't look to be hurt but it,I'm sure it's a rare occurance, but I hope people seeing that wouldn't pick their dogs up like that. Al's aunt did that because she was elderly and had a hard time lifting her little Pepe up and over time it did injure his shoulder...


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## ladodd (Jan 8, 2012)

I felt so bad for the Standard Poodle that's all I could think about. Her top knot was pulled so tight she couldn't close her eyes.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

ladodd said:


> I felt so bad for the Standard Poodle that's all I could think about. Her top knot was pulled so tight she couldn't close her eyes.


Aww poor baby...I missed that,I'll have to go back and see that..


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

ladodd said:


> I felt so bad for the Standard Poodle that's all I could think about. Her top knot was pulled so tight she couldn't close her eyes.


YES. I could not appreciate the movement because her eye white on the non judging side was so prominent 


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

I can't believe no one is commenting on how the Malts were pulled by their necks!! I think that's just awful and unacceptable.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

zooeysmom said:


> I can't believe no one is commenting on how the Malts were pulled by their necks!! I think that's just awful and unacceptable.


It did look like a couple we pulled up by the leash on the collar. I've seen them picked up by a hand cupped under the head and tail before, but this was the first time it looked like they were picked up by the leash attached to the collar.


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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

bellaratamaltese said:


> YES. I could not appreciate the movement because her eye white on the non judging side was so prominent
> 
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Stacey--that would have upset me..:blink: The judge should say something for the good of the dog. :wub:


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

michellerobison said:


> It did look like a couple we pulled up by the leash on the collar. I've seen them picked up by a hand cupped under the head and tail before, but this was the first time it looked like they were picked up by the leash attached to the collar.


 Exactly, and I thought that chin/tail method was bad :angry: Can any show people explain what's up with the trend of manhandling dogs in the ring??


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Rear/chin method is not bad. Believe me, the dogs would fight if it 'hurt' them. It's not actually the chin, it's the side of the jaw and I start working with puppies from the start with this method and even the little babies just relax and let you pick them up like that.


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

Thank you for your reply, Stacy. What about picking them up by the lead--that's got to hurt their neck??


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

zooeysmom said:


> Thank you for your reply, Stacy. What about picking them up by the lead--that's got to hurt their neck??


That's the one that bothered me,picking them up by the lead.


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## Ann Mother (Dec 18, 2013)

Did anybody see them on the morning shows? I only saw a clip on the Ed Show. That's what get for not watching tv in the mornings. Darn' Gabriel was in with Sky.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

zooeysmom said:


> Thank you for your reply, Stacy. What about picking them up by the lead--that's got to hurt their neck??


The show leads maltese are shown in has a padded satin neckpiece so it's not like a little string thing cutting into their necks. Again, it's one of those things that if it really hurt or bothered a dog, you'd see it in their faces. All of the maltese I saw being shown at Westminster looked like they were enjoying their time in the ring - they wouldn't if it was something that caused them pain or stressed them out.

That said, I don't entirely agree with taking a dog off the table by the tail and the lead, and I personally wouldn't do it. But if I was at that level of competition and i wanted to move my dog a few feet without messing up the coat, I would do it quickly using the lead and my other hand under the rear. The static was BAD at Westminster and so anytime you touched the dog, it showed, LOL.


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## Kathy Tobacco (Oct 23, 2013)

He didn't want to disturb the coat so he picked the dog up by the lead. I don't think it hurt the dog that much (lighter animals handle it better than bigger ones) but it is far from the ideal way to handle any dog. I find dogs shows interesting but on some level the dog does become a"thing" which has always bothered me. I find it difficult to believe that we (or even the judges) would be able to pick up on any pain or stress a well trained dog might or might not feel in the ring. My dog acted thrilled to be at the vet's office no matter what they put her through and she acted excited to get there too. My husband joked, "Oh goody, I get to see my all my mean friends" at her joy and excitement heading into the vet's office. Of course I [knew] the visits were painful and stressful. Dogs are little soldiers who are known to hide a limp. Still if I were going to cry for a dog, I wouldn't start with show dogs but some of the stuff that is done to them is just sickening and cruel especially the grooming. I have seen some sad looking photos. There are irresponsible dog show people just like their are irresponsible breeders. It is just like anything else that people are involved in, some of them will be bad.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

Kathy Tobacco said:


> He didn't want to disturb the coat so he picked the dog up by the lead. I don't think it hurt the dog that much (lighter animals handle it better than bigger ones) but it is far from the ideal way to handle any dog. I find dogs shows interesting but on some level the dog does become a "thing" which has always bothered me. *I find it difficult to believe that we (or even the judges) would be able to pick up on any pain or stress a well trained dog might or might not feel in the ring. * My dog acted thrilled to be at the vet's office no matter what they put her through and she acted excited to get there too. My husband joked, "Oh goody, I get to see my all my mean friends" at her joy and excitement heading into the vet's office. Of course I [knew] the visits were painful and stressful. Dogs are little soldiers who are known to hide a limp. Still if I were going to cry for a dog, I wouldn't start with show dogs but some of the stuff that is done to them is just sickening and cruel especially the grooming. I have seen some sad looking photos. There are irresponsible dog show people just like their are irresponsible breeders. It is just like anything else that people are involved in, some of them will be bad.


Although I agree with you that irresponsible dog show breeders/handlers may exist, I respectfully disagree about your point regarding inability to pick up pain or stress in a dog. My dogs are well-trained and I, as a pet owner, can fully pick up on even their subtle (and sometimes, not so subtle) changes in their demeanor or body language. Professional handlers (and especially judges) can tell when a dog is nervous/anxious even on the judging table. I'm no expert, but from the dog shows I attend live, you can just tell which dogs are enjoying the ring and which are not feeling it that day. A dog will not appear to be happy when it is not- I don't believe it's their nature.


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## zooeysmom (Aug 1, 2011)

I agree wholeheartedly, Kathy. Some of the grooming videos I see on Youtube make me want to scream. I see a lot of ugly in the dog show world.


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## Summergirl73 (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree with so many of you. Some of the handling at the show seemed more about "showing well" than about the comfort of the dog. You could even see how many of the handlers behaved one way in the ring (lots of attention on the dog), but then seemingly as soon as they didn't realize they were being observed, it was almost like they had a disconnect to the animal. Oh and it's hard to know if a dog is uncomfortable or if it has simply been conditioned to tolerate such handling  . It was very sad in my opinion.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

It sad to think that part of the judging is a hair out of place....


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## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

I know I sometimes cringe at what the handler does to the dogs, but its the show world where you will see the good the bad and sometimes the ugly! I never really mentioned it here out on the forum, but I do understand about the showing of the dogs........ my mom had a contract with the breeder to do shows and use the dog as a stud. So I was dragged around from show to show to show................. You can tell once you have been to shows which dogs love it and which ones don't! There was a show that my mom was in and there was the other lady that was always so ms hoitey toitey! Anyways did she not show a dog that had a twisted stomach.............. she was disqualified which was great, but the fact that she knew it just blew everyone away! As one lady put it showing isn't for everyone, and just because the person does shows/breeding doesn't mean that they are ethical! Moms golden boy Perv passed two years ago on Christmas eve! He sired two sets of litters ( and oh wow to do tests on him before he went to do his stud services...............ewww lol) was featured for a tv casting role, won several shows LOL my mom has one room that is covered with all of his awards! We have his sister Angel she turned 12 in Dec of 2013. She never liked to do shows, but she did win the Canadian kennel club good citizen award! I think the guy got so excited he was lost in the moment, as there is so much work to do for these shows.................. and yes good grief don't touch the hair LOL! Anyways this was Perv................AKA Ch. Jalynn's Perfect Small Town Boy who is sadly missed :wub:


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## Kathy Tobacco (Oct 23, 2013)

hoaloha said:


> Although I agree with you that irresponsible dog show breeders/handlers may exist, I respectfully disagree about your point regarding inability to pick up pain or stress in a dog. My dogs are well-trained and I, as a pet owner, can fully pick up on even their subtle (and sometimes, not so subtle) changes in their demeanor or body language. Professional handlers (and especially judges) can tell when a dog is nervous/anxious even on the judging table. I'm no expert, but from the dog shows I attend live, you can just tell which dogs are enjoying the ring and which are not feeling it that day. A dog will not appear to be happy when it is not- I don't believe it's their nature.


I understand that you can be sensitive to your dog's mood and at the same time I don't think you would know if the dog experienced momentary pain in the course of something as exciting as a dog show. Pretending is absolutely part of a dog's nature. In the wild a sick or lame wolf can be executed by the pack so sick and lame dogs often "pretend" to feel better than they do. My vet discussed this with me and you can absolutely look it up. Plus dogs are very anxious to please. If they know they are pleasing you then they are on some level happy even as they experience discomfort. Anyone who has even seen a puppy after a spay has seen it. That is why I call them little soldiers. My point is that something can cause the dog pain and yet the dog will not want to communicate that the pain was an issue because they just don't react to pain as an affront especially if they don't perceive it as an affront. He knows this is when his friend picks him up by the neck. 

I too can pick up on nervous or anxious behaviors from my dogs and other dogs which as you said are often not so subtle. Those are signs that a dog is sending out as communication. Often as far as the dog is concerned, he isn't being subtle at all. He is trying to communicate something and it is something other dogs see only too well. Just as often people who don't know dogs, don't pick up on these signs but I am more than willing to believe you can and the judges can. However knowing dog psychology, I know that dogs don't always send the signs or communicate that something is painful. 

I have heard to judges discuss the finer points of a dog's joy in being in the ring and lament that day the dog wasn't "feeling it". Perhaps the dogs who aren't "feeling it" have finally had enough or maybe they were just distracted. Trainers teach the dog to associate the ring with good things and thus illicit a joyful reaction in the ring. It goes beyond that irresponsible show breeders/ handers "may" exist. They do exist. 

I have nothing against dog shows per say (besides some of the grooming techniques) and as I said if I were going to cry for a dog I wouldn't start with show dogs. They would be way down on the list. That being said, it successful dog breeders/handlers aren't part of some priestly class that are above reproach and incapable of selfish motivations and winning isn't proof positive of integrity. 

Recently I was advised to seek out a certain highly regarded winning show breeder in my quest for a puppy, and the copy in his advertisement for show quality puppies disgusted me. If you didn't know better you would have thought he was selling handbags. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt; maybe it was the ad agency's fault. I couldn't help but wonder what he does he do with his less than perfect inventory? Hermes doesn't sell factory seconds but who knows, maybe he does.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Kathy Tobacco said:


> I understand that you can be sensitive to your dog's mood and at the same time I don't think you would know if the dog experienced momentary pain in the course of something as exciting as a dog show. Pretending is absolutely part of a dog's nature. In the wild a sick or lame wolf can be executed by the pack so sick and lame dogs often "pretend" to feel better than they do. My vet discussed this with me and you can absolutely look it up. Plus dogs are very anxious to please. If they know they are pleasing you then they are on some level happy even as they experience discomfort. Anyone who has even seen a puppy after a spay has seen it. That is why I call them little soldiers. My point is that something can cause the dog pain and yet the dog will not want to communicate that the pain was an issue because they just don't react to pain as an affront especially if they don't perceive it as an affront. He knows this is when his friend picks him up by the neck.
> 
> I too can pick up on nervous or anxious behaviors from my dogs and other dogs which as you said are often not so subtle. Those are signs that a dog is sending out as communication. Often as far as the dog is concerned, he isn't being subtle at all. He is trying to communicate something and it is something other dogs see only too well. Just as often people who don't know dogs, don't pick up on these signs but I am more than willing to believe you can and the judges can. However knowing dog psychology, I know that dogs don't always send the signs or communicate that something is painful.
> 
> ...



I think you made some very good points here. A dog that has had enough of showing will start giving you very clear (and sometimes not so clear) signs and a responsible show breeder will pick up on those cues and pull the dog from competition rather than putting them through something they are no longer enjoying.

Temperament is probably the biggest part of what makes a good show dog. You can have the most stunning dog in the world but if it does not enjoy the attention, there isn't much that can be done. Some dogs like being a couch potato rather than a show dog and that is fine!

Lumping all 'show breeders/exhibitors' in the same category though, as was mentioned, is a huge disservice. There are ethical and not so ethical show breeders everywhere. 

A good example of trying to pick up on cues when a dog is done with the show ring is my daughter's Junior Showmanship dog Lucy. She was our first maltese we got as a pet and she is now 8 years old. She does not like the bathing/blow drying aspect of being kept in long coat but she still loves the show ring. We keep waiting for her to tell us that she is done with showing but she still enjoys it.

Here is a picture that was just posted on Marina's wall from Tuesday at Westminster Kennel Club junior showmanship competition. Lucy has been showing for 6 years and this is her fourth time competing at Westminster. You can't 'force' this expression, no matter how good of a handler you are. 











ETA - When Lucy finally is done though, Marina has been acquiring and training her 'replacement.' She is just the most stable show temperament for Marina to have in jrs - nothing bothers her!


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## Ann Mother (Dec 18, 2013)

You are right what a beautiful dog too


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## LuvMyBoys (Jan 2, 2012)

You are going to have good and bad in every profession, obviously. But just like professional athletes hate aspects of their training, they love to play the game, but maybe not every game. Good show dogs love to show, but that's not to say they enjoy it EVERY single time, and that they LOVE the prep and grooming before showing. I like being an accountant, but hate year end... 

Theresa told me that she had had hopes of Dusty going beyond his CH, but when she took him back out, he didn't want to, so he didn't go in the ring again. I don't think anyone can force an unwilling dog to look or show well.


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## hoaloha (Jan 27, 2012)

I have experienced dogs after neuter or during illness and death. I personally CAN tell the difference and pick up signs of discomfort and pain. I don't disagree that the signs may be ignored but you cannot fake an expression such as Lucy's in that pic. That's what I meant when I say that it's not in dog's nature to lie. I can train the heck out of my dog to tolerate grooming or other situations, but they don't sit with a wagging tail and happy facial expression compared to other fun activities. And if they aren't into grooming that day, they will sit down or lay down -- even if it goes against "pleasing" me. Dogs are trainable but they aren't robots. (Nor are they wolves). You can't train every dog to love the show ring. I do know that unethical show breeders exist, but I know that great ones do too who care about the breed and their dogs. 



Kathy Tobacco said:


> I understand that you can be sensitive to your dog's mood and at the same time I don't think you would know if the dog experienced momentary pain in the course of something as exciting as a dog show. Pretending is absolutely part of a dog's nature. In the wild a sick or lame wolf can be executed by the pack so sick and lame dogs often "pretend" to feel better than they do. My vet discussed this with me and you can absolutely look it up. Plus dogs are very anxious to please. If they know they are pleasing you then they are on some level happy even as they experience discomfort. Anyone who has even seen a puppy after a spay has seen it. That is why I call them little soldiers. My point is that something can cause the dog pain and yet the dog will not want to communicate that the pain was an issue because they just don't react to pain as an affront especially if they don't perceive it as an affront. He knows this is when his friend picks him up by the neck.
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## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Stacey--I Love Lucy! :heart: That photo is stunning!! She is glowing.. :heart:


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