# Problems with Candy



## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Hi!! It has been awhile since I've been around, but I'm hoping someone has some advice for me.

Candy has been sick since January. After numerous tests at the nearby Vet School- they have finally diagnosed her with eosinophyllic gastritis and gastroenteritis after biopsies done during an endoscopy. Part of the problem with diagnosing was she has not had classic gastritis symptoms. Her appetite has remained good, no diarrhea,no vomiting, and she hasn't lost weight. 

Her issues have been severe reflux which affects her breathing. It's like the acid comes up and gets into her nose and trachea. She cries and her breathing is labored and noisey when she has these bouts. She's also worse during the middle of the night, so I've been up with her for hours to try to comfort her. 

She's on Prilosec and Metoclopramide BID, but she is not getting any better. Because it is thought to be caused by allergies- I've been trying novel proteins- but have yet to find one that makes a difference and she is pretty picky, too. She won't eat any reconstituted freeze dried foods and doesn't like many canned foods either. We did try her on a short course of steroids (small dose), but she seemed to get worse, was very lethargic, and was licking her lips constantly and still had her breathing issues-plus got diarrhea!

I am stressed and frustrated and really don't know what to do to help her. Although my Vets are caring- at this point they don't seem to have any more ideas either. Has anyone here dealt with this!!!!!???? Any ideas or suggestions?


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## Bailey&Me (Mar 8, 2010)

Hi Joycelyn! Happy to see you back here but not happy to see that Candy's been sick  Poor thing! I don't know much about the condition you mentioned but I'm hoping it's something that she can recover from quickly. As far as food - what have you tried so far? I know dogs with tummy issues usually benefit from limited ingredient food and novel proteins (like you mentioned). I know Addiction has some great options but since you mentioned she doesn't like dehydrated raw or canned food, I'm not sure that would work. Maybe a holistic vet could help you formulate a recipe that would help her? Hope she feels better soon - please keep us posted!


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

You could contact UC Davis and maybe they could create a special diet for Candy. They were very helpful when my liver dog Ellie was sick and needed a special diet. They work with you and your vet. UC Davis school of Veterinary Medicine Nutritional Support. I believe your vet would need to contact them first with her history. I am so sorry you are having issues with Candy.


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't have any advice for you. I'm just sorry you are having to deal with this. Hopefully you will get the advice you need and Candy will be back to normal soon!


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Bailey&Me said:


> Hi Joycelyn! Happy to see you back here but not happy to see that Candy's been sick  Poor thing! I don't know much about the condition you mentioned but I'm hoping it's something that she can recover from quickly. As far as food - what have you tried so far? I know dogs with tummy issues usually benefit from limited ingredient food and novel proteins (like you mentioned). I know Addiction has some great options but since you mentioned she doesn't like dehydrated raw or canned food, I'm not sure that would work. Maybe a holistic vet could help you formulate a recipe that would help her? Hope she feels better soon - please keep us posted!


Hi Nida!! Good to "see" you!! I do follow your cute Facebook posts, so have kept up with your pups. Everything I'm trying is limited ingredient- but you'd be amazed at how many contain things like chicken fat, peas, potato, etc! I know at one time I looked at Addiction- I'll go back and review it again to see why I opted not to try it. I've tried cooking turkey and rice- which seemed good for a while, but then symptoms came back and also buffalo and rice- but who knows- maybe it's the rice??!! I've tried several kibbles- some too hard and Candy won't eat them if I try to soften them with warm water, some too large, some she sniffed and wouldn't try, some just didn't agree. Tried several freeze dried foods that you reconstitute and she refused to eat any of them- she doesn't like anything stew like. Today I am trying Wild Calling Rabbit. It's a canned food, but if I use a little spoon and roll it into tiny balls and feed them to her one at a time- she'll eat them and she seems to like it, too!!! Yay!! Now, I'll have to see how she tolerates it. I've also ordered their limited ingredient rabbit kibble and will see if possibly a combo of the two will work.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

elly said:


> You could contact UC Davis and maybe they could create a special diet for Candy. They were very helpful when my liver dog Ellie was sick and needed a special diet. They work with you and your vet. UC Davis school of Veterinary Medicine Nutritional Support. I believe your vet would need to contact them first with her history. I am so sorry you are having issues with Candy.


thanks for the suggestion! I will talk with my Vet next week about this option!!


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

sherry said:


> I don't have any advice for you. I'm just sorry you are having to deal with this. Hopefully you will get the advice you need and Candy will be back to normal soon!


thank you, Sherry! I appreciate the support.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

Hi! 
I have two IBD dogs dx thru endoscopy. Not all dogs show the classic symptoms of vomiting and diarrhea. My second IBD dog started vomiting bile once a week, if that for a few months. She has terrible acid reflux. It's a really hard disease to manage but it can be done. 
I have one who is on Budesonide, tylosin and Pepcid. The other is managed on tylosin and Pepcid. They are both doing well on Zignature Kangaroo at the moment. With this disease, they can be doing very well and then they flare.

It's really important to only feed one novel protein and carb that they have never had, absolutely no treats. I make treats out of their dog food. Kibble is harder to digest so canned is better. Veggies need to be over boiled and mashed, easier to digest.
It can take up to six months before you see them stable and comfortable but the worse thing you can do is keep switching their novel protein.

Have you tried the Hydrolyzed prescription diet? That helps gets the inflammation down if she can tolerate it. The body won't detect the protein due to how its processed. I'm not a fan of RC, Hills or BB but sometimes you have stop thinking about the crappy ingredients in the prescription foods if it helps your dog recover. It helped my one girl that had severe pancreatitis that was secondary to IBD. 

There's a great FB group "dogs with inflammatory bowel disease" you might want to join. Tons of advice, knowledge and experience for this disease.
I have realized that every dog reacts different with food, meds, ect. I have found that not high protein and low fat is better for my dogs.

My one girl will be consulting for a fecal transplant, so there are options but usually to qualify for a transplant, the dog has to have tried all options of meds, supplements, novel proteins and they continue to decline.

Again...I can't stress enough about not switching foods too often. Give it 2-3 months at least, if she continues to get sick then I would make a switch.
You don't want your girl to end up like my one girl who will be getting the transplant. I'm at a point where I'm running out of novel proteins to try. Once you do run out...the dog is as good as dead.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

Forgot to add that a good probiotic and enzyme is very important for our dogs. I use VSL3 for a probiotic and Prozyme for my enzyme. I also use phytomucil for digestion and milk thistle for liver support.
Hope this helps.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

wow- Joanne, thank you for all the info. I will definitely check out the Facebook group! Candy refused to eat the hydrolyzed rx food, but if I need to I can revisit it again. Although I bought a couple of different kangaroo foods- she wouldn't even taste them-I guess she doesn't like the smell of kangaroo. Based on what you're saying, I'll try sticking with the canned rabbit since she will eat it and it's a novel protein. Are you saying that once it flares up again- you need to keep changing to another novel protein? I did try one probiotic and it seemed to give all my dogs diarrhea- even in small amounts. Have you ever tried raw goat's milk to aid with digestion? or is that a no no?


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

One of the reasons she might be so picky is that her tummy doesn't feel good. With my Tessa, as soon as I got her IBS under control, her appetite came back in a huge way. 

I would suggest you consult a holistic vet. My traditional vet wanted Tessa on Pepcid and metronidazole almost constantly and the holistic vet has her on two botanical and one glandular supplement that have her symptoms under control without traditional meds.

You mention feeding rice. Rice is a grain and grains are known to cause inflammation in the digestive system, I would eliminate all grains and look to another carbohydrate like sweet potato. As you have said, a novel protein and one carb is best until things are under control. If switching proteins hasn't helped, then switch the carb.

Good luck!


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> wow- Joanne, thank you for all the info. I will definitely check out the Facebook group! Candy refused to eat the hydrolyzed rx food, but if I need to I can revisit it again. Although I bought a couple of different kangaroo foods- she wouldn't even taste them-I guess she doesn't like the smell of kangaroo. Based on what you're saying, I'll try sticking with the canned rabbit since she will eat it and it's a novel protein. Are you saying that once it flares up again- you need to keep changing to another novel protein? I did try one probiotic and it seemed to give all my dogs diarrhea- even in small amounts. Have you ever tried raw goat's milk to aid with digestion? or is that a no no?


It takes 6 weeks for the last novel protein to get out of the system...from what I understand, which is why the internist insisted that I not get discouraged and keep switching proteins.
Some dogs do very well off raw. My dogs have SIBO so I can not feed a raw diet, so no to trying the raw goats milk, though very tempting.
Once Candy is stabilized...you will know a flare up. She will start rejecting the food because she will not be able tolerate it anymore, whether it be lip smacking, gurgling tummy, eating grass, vomiting if she vomits, you will know when it's time, trust me.

My second has the same diagnosis as Candy. She has been easier to manage vs. my first IBD dog that's a very complicated case having both types of IBD, SIBO, EPI. I know you mentioned trying a steroid. Did they mention Budesonide? It's a steroid that's works strictly in the GI system so the side effects are little to none. Most dogs with GI issues do very well off of it. 
I personally like to try and manage first without the steroid. My second dog is doing very well on the two medicines, b12 injections and diet, no steroid.
Did they check Candys b12 levels? 

As far as probiotics, the symptoms get worse before they get better. I used to panic because I thought they were having a flare up but they pretty go thru a detox period. I start very low, a slight pinch and slowly work up to a full dose. You should think about adding an enzyme too. It really has helped.

This link is very informative about probiotics. Probiotics For Your Dog’s Sensitive Stomach? - Tufts Your Dog Article


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maggieh said:


> One of the reasons she might be so picky is that her tummy doesn't feel good. With my Tessa, as soon as I got her IBS under control, her appetite came back in a huge way.
> 
> I would suggest you consult a holistic vet. My traditional vet wanted Tessa on Pepcid and metronidazole almost constantly and the holistic vet has her on two botanical and one glandular supplement that have her symptoms under control without traditional meds.
> 
> ...


thanks!! I have tried to find a local holistic vet, but haven't found one with a good reputation as I felt that might be a good option, too. I would love to get her off traditional meds. Candy's appetite has always remained strong-even with her difficulty digesting the food. she's just been picky about not wanting canned foods or raw reconstituted. She actually wants to eat constantly-lol.

About the rice- yes, I had the same thought that it might be a problem so I D/C'd it over a couple of weeks ago. In the past she's never liked sweet potatoes (treats, etc), but maybe worth a try now -overcooking and mashing.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> It takes 6 weeks for the last novel protein to get out of the system...from what I understand, which is why the internist insisted that I not get discouraged and keep switching proteins.
> Some dogs do very well off raw. My dogs have SIBO so I can not feed a raw diet, so no to trying the raw goats milk, though very tempting.
> Once Candy is stabilized...you will know a flare up. She will start rejecting the food because she will not be able tolerate it anymore, whether it be lip smacking, gurgling tummy, eating grass, vomiting if she vomits, you will know when it's time, trust me.
> 
> ...


thank you, again. I wish i had come here for advice earlier- no one really explained things very well. Unfortunately, the way the Vet School works is you rarely see the same person twice and you rarely see an actual staff Vet. They are all very caring, but continuity of care is non existent. I have no idea if they checked her B12 levels, and no, no one mentioned Budesonide. Sounds like it would be a much better steroid option-is it liquid or tablet?

What is SIBO?


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> thank you, again. I wish i had come here for advice earlier- no one really explained things very well. Unfortunately, the way the Vet School works is you rarely see the same person twice and you rarely see an actual staff Vet. They are all very caring, but continuity of care is non existent. I have no idea if they checked her B12 levels, and no, no one mentioned Budesonide. Sounds like it would be a much better steroid option-is it liquid or tablet?
> 
> What is SIBO?


SIBO is small intestinal bacteria overgrowth, very common with GI upset with enteritis, as well as low cobalamin levels (b12).
I know Maggie mentioned holistic treatment. I too, like you found it very hard to find one in this area that had enough knowledge to treat my dogs. One wanted to give a Chinese herb to stimulate the immune system, ugh! It's already in overdrive, it's more like balance the immune system.
Also, IBS is very different than IBD. IBS is usually stress induced, a sensitivity to food, the immune system is not attacking the system, whereas IBD (enteritis) is the immune system attacking the dogs system, very different than IBS, similar symptoms. This is where the endoscopy is very important for treatment and why I personally think meds are necessary in controlling it.
Budesonide is compounded and in a capsule.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

I noticed you mentioned she always wants to eat. I would ask to check for EPI as being hungry can be a symptom. 
I'm attaching a link that explains epi and B12, common in the disease Candy was dx as having.
EPI in Dogs


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> I noticed you mentioned she always wants to eat. I would ask to check for EPI as being hungry can be a symptom.
> I'm attaching a link that explains epi and B12, common in the disease Candy was dx as having.
> EPI in Dogs


thanks, Joanne. I was also reading up on EPI this morning after you mentioned your pups having it and noticed that being hungry is a symptom. Candy has not been losing weight, nor does she have the diarrhea which are also listed as symptoms, but I thought it might be a good idea to have her checked out for it anyway. I had no idea that there were so many other things that are all kind of related (sigh). I did ask to join the Facebook group yesterday since it's a closed group, but haven't heard anything back yet.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> thanks, Joanne. I was also reading up on EPI this morning after you mentioned your pups having it and noticed that being hungry is a symptom. Candy has not been losing weight, nor does she have the diarrhea which are also listed as symptoms, but I thought it might be a good idea to have her checked out for it anyway. I had no idea that there were so many other things that are all kind of related (sigh). I did ask to join the Facebook group yesterday since it's a closed group, but haven't heard anything back yet.


Jocelyn, my second pup had no symptoms other than throwing up bile occasionally. Honestly, if I didn't have one sick dog, I would have never thought anything much of the occasional vomit. She held her weight strong, ate great, never ever off in energy until one day she stopped eating and I knew something was wrong.

Feel free to p.m me in a couple days if the group hasn't excepted you in and I will make a post. It took a few weeks before I was in.
Now that I know your joining in on the group, I'll stop bombing you now with info  

It's just a very hard disease to manage and it can cause a lot more problems if not dealt with. You will find that each dog is very different in symptoms, some dogs do very well and some dogs don't. Some are managed thru meds, some aren't, some do raw, others don't. What I do know is this, if it's not managed, more dogs young and old die from this every month, as you will see in the group.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Jocelyn, my second pup had no symptoms other than throwing up bile occasionally. Honestly, if I didn't have one sick dog, I would have never thought anything much of the occasional vomit. She held her weight strong, ate great, never ever off in energy until one day she stopped eating and I knew something was wrong.
> 
> Feel free to p.m me in a couple days if the group hasn't excepted you in and I will make a post. It took a few weeks before I was in.
> Now that I know your joining in on the group, I'll stop bombing you now with info
> ...


I can't thank you enough for all the info!!!!!! Feel free to give me any additional info you think of, and if I don't hear from the group in a few days, I'll definitely pm you. I always felt that Candy's problem was not just a food allergy and now this is all making much more sense to me. I'm a bit concerned about adding the enzymes if that's something that's needed as Candy does not like mushy, soupy food at all. and the only way she'll eat canned food is if it's cold and I make it into little balls. I guess I'll cross that bridge when/if I need to... Again- you're a lifesaver! thank you soooooooo much!


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> I can't thank you enough for all the info!!!!!! Feel free to give me any additional info you think of, and if I don't hear from the group in a few days, I'll definitely pm you. I always felt that Candy's problem was not just a food allergy and now this is all making much more sense to me. I'm a bit concerned about adding the enzymes if that's something that's needed as Candy does not like mushy, soupy food at all. and the only way she'll eat canned food is if it's cold and I make it into little balls. I guess I'll cross that bridge when/if I need to... Again- you're a lifesaver! thank you soooooooo much!


Yes... Always ask the vet before you start anything. I'm actually sitting at the vet with my one girl who has same diagnosis as Candy. She has been great for 4 months ..until this morning. She started with nonstop diarrhea all day. This is new. Never ending.
Let me know when you get ACCEPTED( not "excepted" like I said I my last post. I was using speak to text...that feature always makes me appear drunk while using that) into the group or if you need me to post to the moderater, ok.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Yes... Always ask the vet before you start anything. I'm actually sitting at the vet with my one girl who has same diagnosis as Candy. She has been great for 4 months ..until this morning. She started with nonstop diarrhea all day. This is new. Never ending.
> Let me know when you get ACCEPTED( not "excepted" like I said I my last post. I was using speak to text...that feature always makes me appear drunk while using that) into the group or if you need me to post to the moderater, ok.


oh, no!!! I hope she's ok-please let me know how she's doing. I feel so bad for our little fluffs. they are so sweet and trusting and it just breaks my heart when they're hurting.
I plan on talking with my Vet next week and asking her to do the bloodwork to see if Candy has some of the other issues. I won't start her on anything new until we see the results.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> oh, no!!! I hope she's ok-please let me know how she's doing. I feel so bad for our little fluffs. they are so sweet and trusting and it just breaks my heart when they're hurting.
> I plan on talking with my Vet next week and asking her to do the bloodwork to see if Candy has some of the other issues. I won't start her on anything new until we see the results.


You said I can still bomb you with information, so here is an article from Dr. Becker regarding enzymes :thumbsup:
Pet Digestive Enzymes | Pet Digestive Health

I was thinking...it much more common for a dog to have low cobalamin (B12) than EPI. The symptoms were similar for my girls. I would start there and be sure they checked it. It's amazing how much better they feel once they get the injections if the dog needs them.
Also, if your vet sent out Candy's bloodwork to Texas A&M, that is when they check the B12, so maybe it's already done and they were fine. I would still ask, for a peace of mind, and be sure to ask for all copies of bloodwork and other test results~ you will be surprised on how much you reach for them later on to compare to. 

Suki is fine for now. She was very dehydrated from the diarrhea. I'm not sure how big Candy is but Suki is small, she weighs 3.9, so she hits bottom fast. One bad day and there is no wasting time. When she stopped eating in January, she dropped to 2.2 lbs in a matter of days. She was admitted for a week. It was very scary to see my once healthy dog so sick.
Once I get back from holiday, I will take her back to my internist for more testing.
Is there a way you can find one internist that you can work with? This disease is so complicated to always have to get someone different at the vet school. With that said, they might have some clinical trials going on. Something to think about for the future.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Awww, poor little Suki- she's such a tiny baby. I'm glad she's ok for now. Candy is bigger-close to 6 lbs. She actually is a bit chubby, so she has room to lose a bit and still be ok. She had a pretty miserable night last night- for some reason it's always at its worst at night.

I do have a regular Vet and she's the one I'll talk with next week. I'm printing out some of the info you've linked to take with me. I doubt the blood work was sent to Texas A&M. The Vet School didn't do any additional blood tests since the original panels we( my regular Vet) got in February. I know they said they checked ammonia levels in April or May which had something to do with the pancreas or liver and they were normal. I'll look through the paperwork I have and check again.
Off to check out the new article you linked.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> Awww, poor little Suki- she's such a tiny baby. I'm glad she's ok for now. Candy is bigger-close to 6 lbs. She actually is a bit chubby, so she has room to lose a bit and still be ok. She had a pretty miserable night last night- for some reason it's always at its worst at night.
> 
> I do have a regular Vet and she's the one I'll talk with next week. I'm printing out some of the info you've linked to take with me. I doubt the blood work was sent to Texas A&M. The Vet School didn't do any additional blood tests since the original panels we( my regular Vet) got in February. I know they said they checked ammonia levels in April or May which had something to do with the pancreas or liver and they were normal. I'll look through the paperwork I have and check again.
> Off to check out the new article you linked.


Poor little Candy...what went on last night? My heart breaks for these girls. You just never know when they will have an episode.
Jocelyn...do you give the Prilosec right before bedtime...that helps much more with the acid reflux. I used to give it with their dinner but my internist told me that it works better over night, to be given right before bed. I've noticed a huge difference since I started doing that.
This is Texas A&M link. Canine Inflammatory Bowel Disease - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences

They are the only ones that do the GI system when suspected of immune disorders.
When you get into the group, you will see that all internist run this test with endoscopy. It takes a week to get results but much more detailed test are run than a CBC from your regular vet. They look at things a regular vet hasn't even heard of.
With your endoscopy, they might not feel the need to do it. With that said, this test alone can Dx GI system disorders better than any other test and pretty darn close to an endoscopy without the need of a biopsy of tissue that they get from endoscopy.

As you might have noticed...I'm completely obsessed with this disease. I want to know WHY it happens if not genetic. Suki had only one set of vaccinations to come here from korea, no pesticides, heartworm given, Honest kitchen for food, I treated her all natural vs. Lacie who was compromised the day I got her coming from a terrible, heartless BYB.
It makes no sense to me why this disease happens~these poor dogs can suffer so much from it. It's heartbreaking.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Poor little Candy...what went on last night? My heart breaks for these girls. You just never know when they will have an episode.
> Jocelyn...do you give the Prilosec right before bedtime...that helps much more with the acid reflux. I used to give it with their dinner but my internist told me that it works better over night, to be given right before bed. I've noticed a huge difference since I started doing that.
> This is Texas A&M link. Canine Inflammatory Bowel Disease - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences
> 
> ...


I'll try the Prilosec at bedtime-that's a great idea. They had me giving it with dinner. At night she frequently has very, very noisey breathing that seems labored , lip smacking, restless and uncomfortable and she makes odd sounds that I feel she's in pain. She's finally sleeping more comfortably right now. When she has bad nights like this I usually get up with her and hold her somewhat upright and I think it helps with the reflux. 

So, they don't think this is genetic? My dogs have always been grain free, titers instead of vaccines (once past the puppy shots)- I'm really baffled. I've always tried to give them the best of care.

Also, in the enzyme article you linked- is that the one you use?


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Joanne- are your dogs enrolled in the research study?


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> I'll try the Prilosec at bedtime-that's a great idea. They had me giving it with dinner. At night she frequently has very, very noisey breathing that seems labored , lip smacking, restless and uncomfortable and she makes odd sounds that I feel she's in pain. She's finally sleeping more comfortably right now. When she has bad nights like this I usually get up with her and hold her somewhat upright and I think it helps with the reflux.
> 
> So, they don't think this is genetic? My dogs have always been grain free, titers instead of vaccines (once past the puppy shots)- I'm really baffled. I've always tried to give them the best of care.
> 
> Also, in the enzyme article you linked- is that the one you use?


Acid reflux is always worse at night, which makes sense why Candy has bad nights, that was my Lacie during the night. Suki never showed symptoms  other than the vomiting bile occasionally.

My internist said it was not genetic...most likely environmental. I titer too and Suki has never needed shots after the first round of puppy shots.
In my case they suspect Lacie is a carrier of some bug that she is passing on to my other two. My third fluff that came from Korea 6 months ago, different line than Suki is also starting to show GI issues. 
There is a test that Texas runs that will show this. If this is the case, then all three will have to be on a cocktail of dewormers, depending on the bug.

I do not use the enzyme in that article. I use Prozyme. Kathleen from SM told me about it and then I read somewhere it was one of the best to use.

Here is the enzyme I use. If you do decide, like I said with the probiotic , start off very, very little.
I should follow what I preach~suki's vet visit yesterday was because I ran out of probiotics two weeks ago. Her first dose back was a full dose which caused her GI upset, not food related. I should have known better


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> Joanne- are your dogs enrolled in the research study?


 I just saw this study yesterday and was thinking about enrolling Suki. I missed a trial at Tufts for the fecal transplant, unfortunately, so I will have to pay out of pocket, unless I wait another year.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Acid reflux is always worse at night, which makes sense why Candy has bad nights, that was my Lacie during the night. Suki never showed symptoms  other than the vomiting bile occasionally.
> 
> My internist said it was not genetic...most likely environmental. I titer too and Suki has never needed shots after the first round of puppy shots.
> In my case they suspect Lacie is a carrier of some bug that she is passing on to my other two. My third fluff that came from Korea 6 months ago, different line than Suki is also starting to show GI issues.
> ...


Well, that scares me a bit if it's passed to other dogs since I have three. The Vet school did put Candy on deworming meds even though nothing showed up on several stool samples. But it made no difference on her symptoms.

Since I just started Candy on the rabbit food I think I should wait a bit to start probiotics or enzymes. The paper you linked earlier suggested slow steps and only adding one thing at a time. However,I will start giving the prilosec at bedtime instead of dinner time and maybe that will help a bit at night. thank you for the suggestion. I'll also look at getting the probiotic to start later.

Good to know that Suki's issue was probably due to the probiotic. I think I'll see about getting Candy enrolled in the study. She's already had the endoscopy with multiple biopsies. That way at least the blood work needed would be included. I've already spent several thousand on tests (MRIs, swallowing studies,endoscopy, etc) so any little bit would help. bummer you missed the fecal transplant study at Tufts. It's good you're in Mass so at least it's close by- is that where you'd have it done?


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> Well, that scares me a bit if it's passed to other dogs since I have three. The Vet school did put Candy on deworming meds even though nothing showed up on several stool samples. But it made no difference on her symptoms.
> 
> Since I just started Candy on the rabbit food I think I should wait a bit to start probiotics or enzymes. The paper you linked earlier suggested slow steps and only adding one thing at a time. However,I will start giving the prilosec at bedtime instead of dinner time and maybe that will help a bit at night. thank you for the suggestion. I'll also look at getting the probiotic to start later.
> 
> Good to know that Suki's issue was probably due to the probiotic. I think I'll see about getting Candy enrolled in the study. She's already had the endoscopy with multiple biopsies. That way at least the blood work needed would be included. I've already spent several thousand on tests (MRIs, swallowing studies,endoscopy, etc) so any little bit would help. bummer you missed the fecal transplant study at Tufts. It's good you're in Mass so at least it's close by- is that where you'd have it done?


It's rare that one dog has a so-called BUG to pass something along. It can be from not rotating foods, environmental and many other reasons but not genetic.

My Lacie came from filthy conditions with giardia, dermodex mites, worms and was very sick when I got her. The reason why they think she's a carrier is because I have three dogs, from different countries, different lines~and they all get GI issues after living here after being completely healthy. None of the dogs from the same Korean lines have any GI disease, only me. I could have just plain bad luck but something tells me and the specialist something different at this point. 

You don't have insurance (sigh). I would get in a study where they pay for everything. Honestly, if I didn't have it. I'm not sure what I would have done with Lacie. I'm at thirty thousands dollars now in two years. Thankfully, insurance pays 80% of it but it's still a lot of money on my part.

Wait one to two weeks apart before you start a supplement, so you can isolate which one might cause a flare up. That's what the holistic vet advised me to to with some herbs. Unfortunately, they didn't make much of a difference for us but I'm dealing with complicated Lacie whose immunity has always been terrible and then her dermodex mites wreak havoc on her body.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

No- I don't have insurance... I've had dogs my whole life (I'm in my 50s now) and have never really needed it until now. Yes, I've had large Vet bills before, but nothing like what I'm running into now.

I will definitely try to get into the study at Texas!! Yikes- over $30,000!!!!!!! Lucky you do have insurance!!!! Poor Lacie-you're an angel to take her in!


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> No- I don't have insurance... I've had dogs my whole life (I'm in my 50s now) and have never really needed it until now. Yes, I've had large Vet bills before, but nothing like what I'm running into now.
> 
> I will definitely try to get into the study at Texas!! Yikes- over $30,000!!!!!!! Lucky you do have insurance!!!! Poor Lacie-you're an angel to take her in!


I don't want to ruin your day but this disease is the hardest and one of the most expensive to manage per my internist.
I keep telling myself, I'm switching back to the old days (I'm in my 50's too) when I fed my first Maltese Mighty dog, over vaccinated, bought flea meds from petco and he lived until he was 18. The first time he got sick was at 15.
These girls I have now, I don't vaccinate, nor do I use flea or heartworm, feed the best food, supplements and I literally live at the vets....


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> I don't want to ruin your day but this disease is the hardest and one of the most expensive to manage per my internist.
> I keep telling myself, I'm switching back to the old days (I'm in my 50's too) when I fed my first Maltese Mighty dog, over vaccinated, bought flea meds from petco and he lived until he was 18. The first time he got sick was at 15.
> These girls I have now, I don't vaccinate, nor do I use flea or heartworm, feed the best food, supplements and I literally live at the vets....


lol- funny, but I was thinking the same thing. How did they live so long when we were doing all the "wrong" things and now that we buy expensive dog food and do all the "right" things- they get sick. Makes me think that it probably is environmental- all the things added to the water we drink, the foods we eat, the soil that grows the food, cleaning products used in the house, etc. Well, heck, even the air we breathe...


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

So sorry to hear of all these problems. Sounds awful. 

Things I do for the girls from some trial and error. Neither do well on kibble of any sort. Being full of preservatives and a host of other things, I just don't do that anymore. They both started with intermittent diarrhea, stomach upset, sickness, itching, the works. Feeding them cooked food with added probiotics and enzymes the last 4 years has cleared up all issues completely. I keep the diet to a combo of diff meat, sweet potato, potato, well cooked veg, (or Penny gets reflux.) I also periodically, give them VSL#3, also animal essentials vitamins. 

Since I did that, touch wood.... perfect tootsie rolls all the time. 

I only use vinegar and water, lemon juice, and baking soda for cleaning. No chemicals.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

silverhaven said:


> So sorry to hear of all these problems. Sounds awful.
> 
> Things I do for the girls from some trial and error. Neither do well on kibble of any sort. Being full of preservatives and a host of other things, I just don't do that anymore. They both started with intermittent diarrhea, stomach upset, sickness, itching, the works. Feeding them cooked food with added probiotics and enzymes the last 4 years has cleared up all issues completely. I keep the diet to a combo of diff meat, sweet potato, potato, well cooked veg, (or Penny gets reflux.) I also periodically, give them VSL#3, also animal essentials vitamins.
> 
> ...


thanks for your input Maureen. What's weird about Candy is she has always been a good eater, regular, well formed poops (still has them!!), no vomiting, no issues at all-until all this just happened (sigh). So, right now I need to have her on a novel protein which has not been easy to find where I live as I wanted to cook for her. Feeding canned Wild Calling Rabbit and we'll see how that works. So far not great...
I am looking into the VSL#3- where do you all purchase it?


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Also in looking at the vsl#3- which one do you all buy since their are different formulas? And how much do you give? I double checked Candy's weight and she weighs 5.5 lbs. I know I'd need to start really small and work up, but since it's a human not canine probiotic it would really help to know how much you both are giving your fluffs. thanks!!!!!


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

VSL#3 is better to be bought directly from them, as it needs proper refrigeration packs or all the goodness gets destroyed. You can buy from even Amazon but I wouldn't. 

Honestly I still would try home cooking, even with regular protein, maybe lower protein quite a bit at first and cook everything well. Do not use rice, or any grains, just use potato, sweet potato and butternut squash to start, and add VSL#3 

Sorry, I am pretty passionate about real homemade food, annoyingly so I am sure....we don't eat anything premade anymore in the family, and our health massively improved. Did the same for the girls


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

Jocelyn, I buy from Walgreens. I would check your local pharmacies or contact the company and I'm sure they will tell you who carries it or like Maureen said, you can buy directly from the company. I saw it at Wholefoods too.
I give 1/64 tsp. of the capsules to my little ones and 1/32 tsp. for Lacie. 
Lacie is 8 1/2 lbs, my other two are under 4 and then I take the rest myself. 
Once the capsule is open I don't think it would be any good if left around to be used again.
You can buy the micro teaspoons on Amazon.

How is Candy doing today?


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

silverhaven said:


> VSL#3 is better to be bought directly from them, as it needs proper refrigeration packs or all the goodness gets destroyed. You can buy from even Amazon but I wouldn't.
> 
> Honestly I still would try home cooking, even with regular protein, maybe lower protein quite a bit at first and cook everything well. Do not use rice, or any grains, just use potato, sweet potato and butternut squash to start, and add VSL#3
> 
> Sorry, I am pretty passionate about real homemade food, annoyingly so I am sure....we don't eat anything premade anymore in the family, and our health massively improved. Did the same for the girls


ok- thanks- so you order directly from VSL, right? but which strength of it do you order- it looked there were a couple plus the RX only one- so 3 options

I may still try home cooking, but I want to stick with rabbit which has been hard for me to find. I may have finally located a source. Candy will not eat sweet potatos and I'm not sure if she has a problem with white potatoes. I'm thinking if I can find the ground rabbit to cook, I might add a bit of canned with it- that should lower the fat and keep the added minerals, etc.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

jpupart said:


> ok- thanks- so you order directly from VSL, right? but which strength of it do you order- it looked there were a couple plus the RX only one- so 3 options
> 
> I may still try home cooking, but I want to stick with rabbit which has been hard for me to find. I may have finally located a source. Candy will not eat sweet potatos and I'm not sure if she has a problem with white potatoes. I'm thinking if I can find the ground rabbit to cook, I might add a bit of canned with it- that should lower the fat and keep the added minerals, etc.


Yes, I get the little sachets and keep in the fridge. Then I very un-scientifically shake a little out on each dinner. I have had zero problems doing that. You would know if you gave too much, likely with gas and bloating etc. 

I thought this site had some decent information. DIY Elimination Diet for Dog and Cat « Dr. Matt Allworth – Veterinarian
I wouldn't worry at all over getting all the nutrients for a month or two. It is more important to start with two ingredients, and if tolerated then you can add the next thing and keep a diary. Once you know where you are with the ingredients then you can make sure it is properly balanced. Mine both love squash... 

I hope you get to the bottom of this. No fun.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Jocelyn, I buy from Walgreens. I would check your local pharmacies or contact the company and I'm sure they will tell you who carries it or like Maureen said, you can buy directly from the company. I saw it at Wholefoods too.
> I give 1/64 tsp. of the capsules to my little ones and 1/32 tsp. for Lacie.
> Lacie is 8 1/2 lbs, my other two are under 4 and then I take the rest myself.
> Once the capsule is open I don't think it would be any good if left around to be used again.
> ...


Hi Joanne,
Sorry- I didn't see your comment earlier. Thanks for the dosages-, I'll have to order some micro teaspoons!! We have plenty of Walgreens around :thumbsup: and I'm frequently at Whole Foods, so I'll check out both. 

I think Candy did better giving the Prilosec at night and she slept pretty well- so thanks for the suggestion!! Today, I felt she seemed a bit better, too. Not as much lip smacking and gurgling. But I've been thru plenty of good and bad days before so the test will be if she continues to improve. Thanks so much for asking!


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

silverhaven said:


> Yes, I get the little sachets and keep in the fridge. Then I very un-scientifically shake a little out on each dinner. I have had zero problems doing that. You would know if you gave too much, likely with gas and bloating etc.
> 
> I thought this site had some decent information. DIY Elimination Diet for Dog and Cat « Dr. Matt Allworth – Veterinarian
> I wouldn't worry at all over getting all the nutrients for a month or two. It is more important to start with two ingredients, and if tolerated then you can add the next thing and keep a diary. Once you know where you are with the ingredients then you can make sure it is properly balanced. Mine both love squash...
> ...


thanks, Maureen! I'll check out the article. and, you're right- it's no fun and just so frustrating and stressful


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> Hi Joanne,
> Sorry- I didn't see your comment earlier. Thanks for the dosages-, I'll have to order some micro teaspoons!! We have plenty of Walgreens around :thumbsup: and I'm frequently at Whole Foods, so I'll check out both.
> 
> I think Candy did better giving the Prilosec at night and she slept pretty well- so thanks for the suggestion!! Today, I felt she seemed a bit better, too. Not as much lip smacking and gurgling. But I've been thru plenty of good and bad days before so the test will be if she continues to improve. Thanks so much for asking!


Yah! I'm so happy to hear Candy had a better night! I hope it continues :thumbsup: Her tummy must not be as upset. Hopefully taking the Pepcid before bedtime will do the trick.

Very important~you must wait 2-3 hours after an antibiotic when giving the probiotic. 
After 1 or 2 hours, the antibiotics will have passed through the body, and at this stage it is safe to take a probiotic without worrying about the natural bacteria being destroyed.
My girls are both on antibiotics, tylosin and Metronidazole. I couldn't remember if you mentioned Candy was on one.
I typically syringe it into their mouths...they think it's a treat.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Yah! I'm so happy to hear Candy had a better night! I hope it continues :thumbsup: Her tummy must not be as upset. Hopefully taking the Pepcid before bedtime will do the trick.
> 
> Very important~you must wait 2-3 hours after an antibiotic when giving the probiotic.
> After 1 or 2 hours, the antibiotics will have passed through the body, and at this stage it is safe to take a probiotic without worrying about the natural bacteria being destroyed.
> ...


Candy is not on an antibiotic, so I'm probably OK there. Which do you syringe into their mouth? I syringe one of Candy's meds, too. She also thinks it's a treat- kind of like an orange popsicle. 

I'm hoping Candy has another good night- because if she does-it means I get to sleep, too!!


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> Candy is not on an antibiotic, so I'm probably OK there. Which do you syringe into their mouth? I syringe one of Candy's meds, too. She also thinks it's a treat- kind of like an orange popsicle.
> 
> I'm hoping Candy has another good night- because if she does-it means I get to sleep, too!!


How did it go last night? Was it the "up all night party?"

I have to syringe Suki's metronidazole and the girls probiotic. All Lacies meds I have to put down her throat. If I fail to remember, lacie will follow me around the house until I give it to her.

What amount of Pepcid is Candy on? Suki is on 1/4 10 mg. tablet twice a day and Lacie is on half tablet twice a day.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> How did it go last night? Was it the "up all night party?"
> 
> I have to syringe Suki's metronidazole and the girls probiotic. All Lacies meds I have to put down her throat. If I fail to remember, lacie will follow me around the house until I give it to her.
> 
> What amount of Pepcid is Candy on? Suki is on 1/4 10 mg. tablet twice a day and Lacie is on half tablet twice a day.


Candy was having problems yesterday evening until I gave her the Prilosec. It took about half an hour, but another night she slept thru-yay!! My Vets have Candy on 1/4 tab of Prilosec (not Pepcid) twice a day. what do you mix the probiotic with to syringe it? When Candy was on sucralate(not sure I spelled that right)- it was dissolved with water and I syringed it- oh my she hated that thick, chalky stuff!


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> Candy was having problems yesterday evening until I gave her the Prilosec. It took about half an hour, but another night she slept thru-yay!! My Vets have Candy on 1/4 tab of Prilosec (not Pepcid) twice a day. what do you mix the probiotic with to syringe it? When Candy was on sucralate(not sure I spelled that right)- it was dissolved with water and I syringed it- oh my she hated that thick, chalky stuff!


That's great news! Wow, another night of sleep :aktion033: Maybe just the change of adding the Prilosec before bed will do the trick.
Does she have issues right after eating? Maybe she's inhaling her food and swallowing too much air. I use the gobble stoppers in their dishes and it makes them slow down a bit. Helps with the reflux.

As far as their meds and probiotic, I make a slurry, the less the water I find is better for my girls.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> That's great news! Wow, another night of sleep :aktion033: Maybe just the change of adding the Prilosec before bed will do the trick.
> Does she have issues right after eating? Maybe she's inhaling her food and swallowing too much air. I use the gobble stoppers in their dishes and it makes them slow down a bit. Helps with the reflux.
> 
> As far as their meds and probiotic, I make a slurry, the less the water I find is better for my girls.


haha- one thing I don't have to worry about with Candy is eating too fast- she must be the slowest eater in the world-lol. But she does have problems after eating- and even drinking water. that's why the Vet School wasn't sure if it was GI or something going on with her swallowing. She's definitely an atypical case. I'm still trying to find some ground rabbit to mix with her canned food as I feel it's higher in fat than I'd like- but I keep hitting dead ends. thought I found one until they called me back and told me it would be a 15 pound special order. I thought maybe I could freeze it, but when I asked if it was fresh or frozen they said it would have been previously frozen- and since I can't refreeze meat- that's out. Have another place to check out, but it's a bit further.


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

jpupart said:


> haha- one thing I don't have to worry about with Candy is eating too fast- she must be the slowest eater in the world-lol. But she does have problems after eating- and even drinking water. that's why the Vet School wasn't sure if it was GI or something going on with her swallowing. She's definitely an atypical case. I'm still trying to find some ground rabbit to mix with her canned food as I feel it's higher in fat than I'd like- but I keep hitting dead ends. thought I found one until they called me back and told me it would be a 15 pound special order. I thought maybe I could freeze it, but when I asked if it was fresh or frozen they said it would have been previously frozen- and since I can't refreeze meat- that's out. Have another place to check out, but it's a bit further.


Have you considered Honest Kitchen Preference? You add the novel protein to the mix. That way you have the best of both worlds, a little bit of homecooking with a mix that will provide all the vitamins and minerals that you will need.
I used this for about 10 months using Bison. Lacie did great until her body started to reject the protein. The only other problem I came across was the market always ran out, so I found myself driving up 45 minutes to a market who had it in stock, that got old real fast 

I'm glad Candy is a slow eater. It's just one more thing to worry about.
When is your next vet visit?


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Have you considered Honest Kitchen Preference? You add the novel protein to the mix. That way you have the best of both worlds, a little bit of homecooking with a mix that will provide all the vitamins and minerals that you will need.
> I used this for about 10 months using Bison. Lacie did great until her body started to reject the protein. The only other problem I came across was the market always ran out, so I found myself driving up 45 minutes to a market who had it in stock, that got old real fast
> 
> I'm glad Candy is a slow eater. It's just one more thing to worry about.
> When is your next vet visit?


I may look into it again- she didn't like the sample previously when I tried it. This was prior to her having any issues. Bison is one of the proteins I tried- but my Vet felt it was too close to beef and wanted Candy to have something different. Too bad- because I can easily find it. Now that I have her on rabbit and she Likes it, I don't want to switch her. Just wish I could find it fresh to cook rather than having the canned stuff. 

I am planning on seeing my Vet this week and discussing getting the tests done to see if Candy has EPI, SIBO, or even a B12 deficiency. I've sent an email to Texas to see if Candy would need additional biopsies prior to getting in the study. If so, I wouldn't try to enroll her as she just had biopsies in April and I would not put her through that again. Also, I just looked at her biopsy results again. It showed mild lymphoplasmacytic as well as eosinophilic IBD. I'd forgotten that. 
Hoping we have another good night of sleeping 

Oh, and I still haven't been accepted into the Facebook group


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Eosinophilic disease can be very difficult to treat. This is not your typical IBD. You need a specialist on the case and consistency. This can be done at a vet school, but you'll need to work around the system a bit. I can help you there if you want to. 

Are you willing to travel? I'd recommend a vet who managed to get my Mikey to survive 5 years with his very, very severe eosinophilic disease in the gut and liver. She's in VA and is an extremely amazing doctor.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

If you have to do sucralfate - DO NOT do the tabs from your vet you dissolve in water. Get the oral suspension from a human pharmacy. It is pink, tastes better, and is tolerated MUCH better!


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

jmm said:


> Eosinophilic disease can be very difficult to treat. This is not your typical IBD. You need a specialist on the case and consistency. This can be done at a vet school, but you'll need to work around the system a bit. I can help you there if you want to.
> 
> Are you willing to travel? I'd recommend a vet who managed to get my Mikey to survive 5 years with his very, very severe eosinophilic disease in the gut and liver. She's in VA and is an extremely amazing doctor.


Thank you so much for your offer to help. It's good to hear that Mikey did well! I'm not sure what you mean about "working around the system". I might be willing to travel, but Candy is a Very bad traveler. We have another place that's slightly over 2 hours away and she has never gotten use to the trip even though we go frequently- and it's been 5 years!! I don't want to stress her out anymore than she already is. She's always been extremely high strung. Where in Virginia? that might make a difference. Candy was on the yucky dissolving tablets previously and hated taking it. since it didn't help it was D/C. I'm pretty sure we have some of the pink stuff around as my hubby has to take it occasionally. Wonder if it might help now as her really bad reflux is hard to control. Can you tell me what you fed Mikey? thanks!! I need all the help I can get right now.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

Today is Candy's birthday- she turns 5. Unfortunately she will not have a cake for the first time...


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

If you just schedule an appointment at the vet school you will go through the system - student, resident, +/- seeing the actual clinician. You need to pick a resident or professor and stick with that one person. So when you make an appointment you need to make it when Dr. SoandSo is ON CLINICS. Or you need to make the appointment through that Dr. when you are there. Otherwise you will get whomever is on each time you go in. For example, when Roo went to Tufts, he saw the senior clinician each time - no students or residents. 

The VA vet is in Arlington, VA. If you are interested contact me privately for her info.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Mikey did best on a LOW FAT diet supplemented with baby rice cereal. When not eating he was syringed baby rice cereal. 

My current IBD dog (lymphoplasmacytic...easier to treat) eats Royal Canin LOW FAT.


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## jpupart (Jul 19, 2010)

jmm said:


> If you just schedule an appointment at the vet school you will go through the system - student, resident, +/- seeing the actual clinician. You need to pick a resident or professor and stick with that one person. So when you make an appointment you need to make it when Dr. SoandSo is ON CLINICS. Or you need to make the appointment through that Dr. when you are there. Otherwise you will get whomever is on each time you go in. For example, when Roo went to Tufts, he saw the senior clinician each time - no students or residents.
> 
> The VA vet is in Arlington, VA. If you are interested contact me privately for her info.


That makes sense, but I'm not sure NC Vet school works the same way. I never get to see an attending physician. The student , then resident "consult" with an attending, but they rarely make an appearance. That's been my huge complaint about their system. I did find a resident I liked, but she went off service... and the student I liked a lot and was my best advocate- graduated. 
I'll check with them and see if I can actually book an appointment with their GI specialist. She did call me one time so I have her name around somewhere. 
I'll pm you about your vet's name. thanks!!

thanks for the info on diet. There is so much conflicting info about rice. Maybe baby rice cereal is easier to digest.


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