# Question about "Time Out"



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Harley goes NUTS at my TV at a couple of specific adverts (with other dogs) and also, when there are barking dogs on the TV .,.. whether they are visible or not - mostly when he hears them its enough to set him off, he could be sound asleep & hear a dog barking on the TV and that's enough to set him off.

He runs up to the TV, and stands on his back legs barking at the TV, and then runs to our front door, which is right next to the TV ... I'm not sure, but I think he might think "they" are _behind_ the TV, and are going to come into our house, which is why he goes to the front door ??

My question is ... is giving a "time out" effective, and if so, would it be ok to 'time him out' in my bathroom. My house is TINY - and the living room, where I watch TV is pretty much central to the whole lay-out of the house. Bedroom 1 & 2 are off the living room, as is the kitchen, the bathroom is teeny tiny room, a little bit removed (not by much) from the living room.

If giving time out is recommended ... how long? Until he is quiet, or until the barking stops on the TV/or the visuals on the TV change. I have already tried turning the TV off completely in the middle of one of his 'nutso' turns, and he has still barked & carried on at the TV, even though its off, and the screen is completely blank.

I do have a crate - that I only ever used to transport H & D home as babies - so they are not used to a crate at all. Actually, I think the one I have is now far too small for him! If a crate is suggested, where would be the best place for it, given my really small living conditions?

Any suggestions? - this is getting to me.

Thanks all.


----------



## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Can't offer any advice, but I sure am interested in any replies to your post. You are describing the way Annie acts to a "t" - and it can drive me insane. I've actually stopped watching a lot of the shows on Animal Planet that I love because I just cannot get her to stop and it ruins the enjoyment I got out of watching the shows. She has actually tried to squeeze behind the tv to get to the dog. She doesn't growl or sound aggressive, just howls and barks. And, Sophie will usually jump right in if only for moment - before Annie all I had to do was tell Sophie "just the tv" and she would stop immediately. If they are sleeping on the sofa and hear a dog on tv they wake up and fly off the sofa almost causing me to have a heart attack. There was a commercial with a dog that used to play what seemed like every ten minutes - I can't remember it now, but I got pretty good at hitting the mute button a nano second after it started.

Anyway, I'm all ears. Thanks for asking this question.

Linda


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

QUOTE (Sophie @ Dec 16 2008, 08:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690312


> Can't offer any advice, but I sure am interested in any replies to your post. You are describing the way Annie acts to a "t" - and it can drive me insane. I've actually stopped watching a lot of the shows on Animal Planet that I love because I just cannot get her to stop and it ruins the enjoyment I got out of watching the shows. She has actually tried to squeeze behind the tv to get to the dog. She doesn't growl or sound aggressive, just howls and barks. And, Sophie will usually jump right in if only for moment - before Annie all I had to do was tell Sophie "just the tv" and she would stop immediately. If they are sleeping on the sofa and hear a dog on tv they wake up and fly off the sofa almost causing me to have a heart attack. There was a commercial with a dog that used to play what seemed like every ten minutes - I can't remember it now, but I got pretty good at hitting the mute button a nano second after it started.
> 
> Anyway, I'm all ears. Thanks for asking this question.
> 
> Linda[/B]



Oh thank you Linda!!!! I'm so glad I'm not alone!!! :grouphug: 

I'd really love to watch some shows but I totally avoid them because I know it will set him off .... either that, of I have to hold him on my lap the ENTIRE time. Actually, thats another thing, if there is something I really want to watch, that I KNOW will have animals, I hold him on my lap, and he gradually relaxes, but if he's not on my lap .... the forget it! He's barking up a storm up at the TV!!

With Harley, its not just dogs ... its pretty much any animal, so I cant watch any of the animal doco's that I would like to


----------



## gibbert (Jan 13, 2005)

LOL - Tchelsi does this too ... the barking at the dogs on TV, that is. Tater Tot is the one that tries to find the offending dog(s), which I think is absolutely adorable!!! He always thinks they are behind the telly. Or when I am watching a doggie video on the 'puter, he will come up and examine the computer, tilt his head back and forth, then run behind the laptop, looking for the dog he hears. 

ROFL Jac ... you're not going to like what I have to say ... I tend to think that if I'm going to watch TV, and a dog barks on the television, then I should expect my dog to bark. I'm thinking ... Tchelsi believes there's a strange dog in HER HOME - LOL. She's a dog and dogs bark. When it comes to our neighbors and their noises, or other outside noises - one or two barks is ok, then I expect her to do "whispers only", and that's what we enforce ... but regarding the "dogs on TV" scenario ... if I really want her to stop after one or two barks, I turn the volume down til the barking is all finished! No ... my dogs aren't SPOILED!! 

Love you Jac!!! :smootch: Best of luck Harley!!! 

And yes ... I am STILL up from last night!!! It's 5:45!!! :OMG!:


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

QUOTE (gibbert @ Dec 16 2008, 09:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690329


> LOL - Tchelsi does this too ... the barking at the dogs on TV, that is. Tater Tot is the one that tries to find the offending dog(s), which I think is absolutely adorable!!! He always thinks they are behind the telly. Or when I am watching a doggie video on the 'puter, he will come up and examine the computer, tilt his head back and forth, then run behind the laptop, looking for the dog he hears.
> 
> ROFL Jac ... you're not going to like what I have to say ... I tend to think that if I'm going to watch TV, and a dog barks on the television, then I should expect my dog to bark. I'm thinking ... Tchelsi believes there's a strange dog in HER HOME - LOL. She's a dog and dogs bark. When it comes to our neighbors and their noises, or other outside noises - one or two barks is ok, then I expect her to do "whispers only", and that's what we enforce ... but regarding the "dogs on TV" scenario ... if I really want her to stop after one or two barks, I turn the volume down til the barking is all finished! No ... my dogs aren't SPOILED!!
> 
> ...


Well, firstly Heidi, I was going to tell you to go to bed - but there's not much point in that when it's nearly 6 am for you .. so ... Secondly .... I feel I need to correct you ... I think you may have slipped, because of the hour .... but umm ... "She's a dog, and dogs bark" well yes ... but, um, your sweet Tchelsi girl is MUCH more than a 'dog' :wub: She's your baby girl, and I love her so! :wub: and thirdly (did I just make up a word?) ... you need to give Tchelsi & The T-Man big, wet sloppy kisses from me!!! xxxx

I wouldn't mind so much if all he did was bark, but her really gets in a right tizzy about it - I have scratches on the LCD to proove it! LOL .. but I'm scared that one day he'll really hurt himself... one day, he'll throw himself at the TV & it will fall on him!!!


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Yes, you can use time out and the bathroom is fine. But this is only 1/2 of your work. 

When he does it, use your no reward marker (I say uh oh or you lose) and time out. I usually count until 5 minutes of quiet. 

But the other half is to get him not do react in the first place. What I would do is record a show with a lot of barker. Turn the volume extremely low and sit down with some super-yummy treats (the yummiest thing ever). Hit play and start doing very quick cookies. I use "good quiet" while I feed. What you are doing here is classical conditioning - bar opens for cookies when these tv noises happen, closes when you hit pause. You are going to have to start very quietly with the tv and just work for few seconds. Short and sweet. Remember not to increase the volume or length of time until you are successful where you are at. So you have 2 criteria - volume and time it plays. You want to increase the time it plays at a volume to about a minute before you go to the next volume up (starting over with just a few seconds). Once they get the idea, I'll play some sit/down/stand/paw games for the treats while it plays.


----------



## gibbert (Jan 13, 2005)

Thanks for posting ... I must try out these techniques, so one day the neighbors might nor know I have 'dogs'! Thanks for the tips ... perhaps soon I will be able to watch Animal Planet with the sound up!

QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 16 2008, 09:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690351


> Yes, you can use time out and the bathroom is fine. But this is only 1/2 of your work.
> 
> When he does it, use your no reward marker (I say uh oh or you lose) and time out. I usually count until 5 minutes of quiet.
> 
> But the other half is to get him not do react in the first place. What I would do is record a show with a lot of barker. Turn the volume extremely low and sit down with some super-yummy treats (the yummiest thing ever). Hit play and start doing very quick cookies. I use "good quiet" while I feed. What you are doing here is classical conditioning - bar opens for cookies when these tv noises happen, closes when you hit pause. You are going to have to start very quietly with the tv and just work for few seconds. Short and sweet. Remember not to increase the volume or length of time until you are successful where you are at. So you have 2 criteria - volume and time it plays. You want to increase the time it plays at a volume to about a minute before you go to the next volume up (starting over with just a few seconds). Once they get the idea, I'll play some sit/down/stand/paw games for the treats while it plays.[/B]


----------



## BABYSNOWY (Jul 8, 2008)

Hi, Me personally with Sowy who tends to go insane sometimes I give her 2 warnings of time out (she obviously sometimes looks at me like I have 2 heads) but in the third I do lock her up for 8 minutes (she is 8months old) and then let her out and comes out calm.....sometimes it works great, but if there is a lot going on in the house with the kids and all sometimes it doesnt....Good luck


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 17 2008, 01:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690351


> Yes, you can use time out and the bathroom is fine. But this is only 1/2 of your work.
> 
> When he does it, use your no reward marker (I say uh oh or you lose) and time out. I usually count until 5 minutes of quiet.
> 
> But the other half is to get him not do react in the first place. What I would do is record a show with a lot of barker. Turn the volume extremely low and sit down with some super-yummy treats (the yummiest thing ever). Hit play and start doing very quick cookies. I use "good quiet" while I feed. What you are doing here is classical conditioning - bar opens for cookies when these tv noises happen, closes when you hit pause. You are going to have to start very quietly with the tv and just work for few seconds. Short and sweet. Remember not to increase the volume or length of time until you are successful where you are at. So you have 2 criteria - volume and time it plays. You want to increase the time it plays at a volume to about a minute before you go to the next volume up (starting over with just a few seconds). Once they get the idea, I'll play some sit/down/stand/paw games for the treats while it plays.[/B]



Thank you Jackie! I appreciate all your tips & advice so much! Now I have a perfect excuse to buy a DVD recorder!


----------



## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Thanks, JMM, I so want to try this. How long do you leave them in time out waiting for them to be quiet? 

Annie is so excitable. I've been working for almost a year now trying to train her, but as soon as the treats come out she's falling all over herself in excitement - even with low value treats - to her there are no low value treats. Of course, she doesn't get one until she sits - which took forever to teach her - and her butt only stays on the ground for a second. The look on her face is almost of desperation. I'm at the point where I don't know how to move on from the sit or how to get the sit to progress to a real sit.

I know I've been lax - with Annie being so sick in the beginning we let a lot of the training slide when she joined the family.

And, it didn't help that Sophie basically trained herself - show her twice and she to it - although I would like to progress with Sophie too beyond the basic stuff. 

I didn't mean to hijack this thread and I probably should have started another - I've been meaning to start a topic on training Annie and her excitability, but just didn't even kinow where to start.

Thanks!

Linda


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

One thing that may help is leaving the treats on the counter and not having them on your hand or on your body. I put them on the kitchen counter and go into the family room. Also, put the treats out well before hand so she's not revving up while you get them out. I leave some out all of the time if I'm working on something. 

You've taught her to drop her butt, but you've been rewarding her for picking it back up. This is where a marker for the behavior can really clarify things for the dog and progress your behavior. You can use a word - but make sure it is short, sweet, and distinctive. A sharp "yes" works for me. You can also use a clicker (I like the i click). I find I am much more precise with the clicker. 

So two criteria
1. butt hits ground
2. butt stays on ground

Once you have 1 consistent and on cue, you can move to the duration aspect. All you do is hesitate just a moment in your click or verbal marker. If her butt comes up immediately, calmly use your no reward marker. I say "uh oh" but you can use whatever you like "you lose" "oops". I say it in a calm, flat tone. Then you wait....and wait....and wait. I don't say anything. I just wait. The first time it will take her a while to figure it out. Once she does it once, JACKPOT. That means 3 times the treats she would have gotten normally. Remember that your duration has to be slowly built up. Get just an extra second consistent and then add another second of hesitation before you mark. It takes longer letting the dog figure it out, but you gain the benefit of the dog actually understanding the exercise. 

When many people recommend is to physically sit your dog and hold them there. Yes, with time it can work. However, the dog then has an additional step of learning to do it without being forced. You also lose out on the muscle memory the dog gets by putting themselves in the position. It also just isn't fun where as "catching" you extra second on a sit is a fun game for the dog to work through. 

Avoid aversives. Imagine somebody correcting you for standing up...would you even want to sit down if every time you moved you got a leash correction or a verbal correction? You want the dog to ENJOY working with you and ENJOY getting some brain exercise. In addition all aversives have side effects. The most common with the leash correction is the dog doesn't do it if not on a leash. With verbal corrections these are the dogs you see people saying "sit....sit.....sit...I said sit". And in both cases, you have the side effect of potentially turning your dog off to training with you.


----------



## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

I've used time outs with Perri before when my parents got a house in a suburban neighborhood and we would visit. We live on a horse farm in the country so this was a huge change of environment for Perri. Seeing people walking around right outside that house set him off because he wasn't used to it. So the first few times we went he would bark and bark and redirecting him doesn't work if he's really keyed up. He'll be distracted by a treat for a bit and then return to guard dog duty. So there's a powder room by the front door where he would bark and if he didn't quiet down when I told him I would say "time out" and put him in there for a minute tops. This just allowed him some time to kind of regroup and calm down so that I could work with him. After a few visits he started to get more used to the place and if he did go on a barking spree, I'd usually just have to say "do you want a time out?" and he'd look at me and stop. I haven't had to use it after those first couple visits, nor have I had to threaten with it much after that either. So for us it was an effective means to an end.


----------



## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

My "regulars" use to go nuts over the TV. I would mute the TV when the "Pizza" commercial came on.
The door bell would ring, on the commercial, and the dogs, ALL of them, would run to the front door.
I honestly didn't blame them, as I've been in bed, hear the phone ring, and answer the phone, only to
hear a dial tone. Yep, the "ring" was from the television, and I had fallen asleep.

I would tell them, "oh, stop it, it's the tv". They finally smartened up, and now know the "real" door bell,
and "real" dogs. Well, not the real dogs all the time, but the doorbell for sure. 

Then a "newbie" comes along. It starts all over again. It funny though. The "regulars", look at newbie
as though he's stupid. ~ LOL

Obviously my advice is worthless. I cannot give 10-dogs a time-out. So I just tell them to shut up :HistericalSmiley:


----------



## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. Duh, I never thought about the routine of going to the pantry and taking out the treats versus having them out and ready to go. I'm going to try this and see if we can avoid the whole revving up process that she goes through. And, what a revving process it is. Sophie will get a little excited, but then run to where we are going to practice and sit and wait for me while Annie is bouncing off the walls. 

I'm also going to pull out Sophie's old clicker. Thinking about it, I am not marking at the exact right time with Annie - I can see where just that split second and I am rewarding her for butt off the floor. And, thinking back, with Sophie I had a treat bag I had on me at all times when I was training her. I've just been going about this the entire wrong way with Annie - back to the basics!  And, I do avoid aversives. I so much enjoy watching them "get it." With Sophie I could almost see the light bulb go off over her head. Annie, on the other hand, well....let me just say she has the quirkiest little personality. Thanks, again. Now, you have me excited about setting up a routine training program with Annie and not just trying to do it "on the fly." Another thing I know I've been doing wrong is not doing it one-on-one with Annie - I'm going to enlist my son's help and have him occupy Sophie while it's one on one time for me and Annie. I'll let you know how it goes. 

Linda



QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 16 2008, 10:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690699


> One thing that may help is leaving the treats on the counter and not having them on your hand or on your body. I put them on the kitchen counter and go into the family room. Also, put the treats out well before hand so she's not revving up while you get them out. I leave some out all of the time if I'm working on something.
> 
> You've taught her to drop her butt, but you've been rewarding her for picking it back up. This is where a marker for the behavior can really clarify things for the dog and progress your behavior. You can use a word - but make sure it is short, sweet, and distinctive. A sharp "yes" works for me. You can also use a clicker (I like the i click). I find I am much more precise with the clicker.
> 
> ...


----------



## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Dec 16 2008, 11:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690741


> My "regulars" use to go nuts over the TV. I would mute the TV when the "Pizza" commercial came on.
> The door bell would ring, on the commercial, and the dogs, ALL of them, would run to the front door.
> I honestly didn't blame them, as I've been in bed, hear the phone ring, and answer the phone, only to
> hear a dial tone. Yep, the "ring" was from the television, and I had fallen asleep.
> ...


 :smrofl: :smrofl: :smrofl:


----------

