# Mixed breed dogs



## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

I am asking this question purley out of ignorance and the need to be educated. I know our members are passionate on this topic so please be kind in your responses. I really just want to understand. I realize there is a lot I do not know :brownbag: , and that there are experts here who can explain. 

So here's the question-

Aren't most of the registered AKC dog breeds, breeds that were bred to do a specific job? Meaning that these dogs were originally mixed breed dogs that became the standard? 

For example: My understanding is that the Brussels Griffon came about by breeding Affinpinchers with Pugs to create a new breed. And the Portugese water dogs were a mixture of Poodles and Bearded Collies (I think). Maltese were bred to be companions and are among multiple breeds that orignated from the same area like the Havanese. Please let me know if I am wrong about this. 

Our ancestors bred dogs to create breeds that would be excellent at a specific jobs. They chose which temperments, skills, looks, and health attributes to continue breeding. We now consider these breeds the standard - but were they not all originally mixed breed dogs?

I truly understand the problems that come from breeding designer dogs for greed, as well as the shelters that are overun with mixed breed dogs. I guess I just want to understand why someone who is responsible about creating a mixed breed is different from our ancestors? Who is qualified to decide if we need another unique breed to fill a need? Or is that a moral question?

Thanks for the information. 

Leslie


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

:goodpost: I have no answer. It is probably mostly because people get so invested in "their" breed and "purebred" breeding that the mind becomes closed to any thought outside the box. Every time this subject comes up my mind's eye wanders back visualizing what breeds might have been like even 200 years ago. One reason I first became interested in the Maltese breed was because of the ancient stories from thousands of years ago about them. I'm sure there have been many changes since then in the breed as well, but thinking of an ancient king or queen with a tiny soft white dog on their lap got to me. :wub:


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## chico (Mar 4, 2007)

I will refrain from posting my opinion on this topic since i always seem to offend people when it comes to the AKC subject. :brownbag: 
Would love to hear what everyone else thinks.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Most dog breeds were created within the past couple hundred years. 

A great breed to look at that was recently created is the Dogo Argentino. The Dogo was specifically created to hunt wild boar that had been inappropriately introducted to places like Texas. The Dogo is a combination of a great many breeds with the sole intent to create a dog that would excell at this job. 

Another example is the Sulimov dogs in Russia which have been created by a scientist to excell in scent detection for airport screening. As opposed to German Shephers, Aussies, Beagles who must be cued to scent, the Sulimov dogs naturally seek without being told. Another very recent creation with a very specific purpose. 

These are not "Designer" Dogs. These are dogs that, just like the English Foxhound, were bred to serve a specific purpose through extremely well though out breeding programs. 

So yes, we are still creating new breeds and that is acceptable. However, a Yorkipoo is not a new breed because there is no standard and there is no coherent breeding program to produce something specific (other than money LOL). We already have many companion breeds...to create others solely for money is, IMO, unethical. To create a new breed for some purpose for which a unique breed is needed with proper research, breeding programs, etc. is fascinating and worthy. 

And yes, breeds can become AKC recognized when proper records are kept and a set standard is being used.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 12:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765806


> Most dog breeds were created within the past couple hundred years.
> 
> A great breed to look at that was recently created is the Dogo Argentino. The Dogo was specifically created to hunt wild boar that had been inappropriately introducted to places like Texas. The Dogo is a combination of a great many breeds with the sole intent to create a dog that would excell at this job.
> 
> ...


What a wonderful explanation!

I would really love to hear your feedback on Biewer Terriers. I hear so much about them now and wondered if this was for real or just another designer dog.

http://biewer-btca.com/


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

They are cute, but it looks like just a variation of a Yorkie.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

What amazes me (every time I think about it) is that every dog evolved from the wolf. 

........  .......Amazing (whoops, there I go again) :blush:


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## jodublin (Sep 27, 2006)

some mixed breeds are cute ,these look a bit weired to me ... :shocked: jo


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 12:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765806


> Most dog breeds were created within the past couple hundred years.
> 
> A great breed to look at that was recently created is the Dogo Argentino. The Dogo was specifically created to hunt wild boar that had been inappropriately introducted to places like Texas. The Dogo is a combination of a great many breeds with the sole intent to create a dog that would excell at this job.
> 
> ...


BRAVO!!!!!!!


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 11:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765806


> Most dog breeds were created within the past couple hundred years.
> 
> A great breed to look at that was recently created is the Dogo Argentino. The Dogo was specifically created to hunt wild boar that had been inappropriately introducted to places like Texas. The Dogo is a combination of a great many breeds with the sole intent to create a dog that would excell at this job.
> 
> ...





:goodpost:


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Apr 21 2009, 11:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765830


> They are cute, but it looks like just a variation of a Yorkie.[/B]



Biewers are Yorkshire Terriers, with a specific fur color variation. A breeder found it and continued to breed for it thus creating another breed that no longer fell into the Yorkshire Terrier standard.

I guess the need for another Yorkshire Terrier type dog is what would be in question and possibly place this breed into a designer dog category in some folk's opinion?

Leslie


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 11:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765806


> Most dog breeds were created within the past couple hundred years.
> 
> A great breed to look at that was recently created is the Dogo Argentino. The Dogo was specifically created to hunt wild boar that had been inappropriately introducted to places like Texas. The Dogo is a combination of a great many breeds with the sole intent to create a dog that would excell at this job.
> 
> ...


Thank you this is an excellent explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Leslie


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## chico (Mar 4, 2007)

QUOTE (2MaltMom @ Apr 21 2009, 12:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765835


> What amazes me (every time I think about it) is that every dog evolved from the wolf.
> 
> ........  .......Amazing (whoops, there I go again) :blush:[/B]


Dinosaurs all evolved into birds! :biggrin:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I don't know much about Biewer's, but was under the impression that they are recognized in other countries sort of like Parti Poodles here in the U.S. They are not accepted by AKC, but widely accepted in Europe. Again, I don't know for sure on the Biewers, but that was the impression I have gotten.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

From my point of view, being 'recognized' by AKC or any other group has little to do with the question of can we except that people do breed dogs that become new breeds. AKC does only if you wish to show with AKC. There are lots that just have their own breed registery for a stud book or pedigrees.

I've been to a Rare Breed Dog Show here and at that time Havanese weren't AKC so they were there, also Cotons and Mini Aussies and a cute one called MiKi's. Trouble I see with MiKi's is the variation they are still getting. Some have prick ears, some flop ears, etc. Of course there are AKC breeds that have both, like Paps.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 02:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765877


> I don't know much about Biewer's, but was under the impression that they are recognized in other countries sort of like Parti Poodles here in the U.S. They are not accepted by AKC, but widely accepted in Europe. Again, I don't know for sure on the Biewers, but that was the impression I have gotten.[/B]


From what I understand, the breed club has done an amazing amount of research into genetics to prove that Biewers are indeed a separate breed with a unique standard, although they are not yet recognized by the AKC. Parti's are just a color fault according to the YTCA, but can be AKC registered.

I belong to a Yorkie forum and this is always a hot topic. People deliberately breed color faults like parti's, chocolates and goldens, advertise them as "rare" and charge more. :thmbdn: 

I wondered if the Biewers were the real deal or just another designer dog.


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## EmmasMommy (Jun 2, 2008)

I only wish that all dogs, (mutt or pure blooded) , were registered with DNA from both parents. I know the big time "stud" dogs do now but 1/2 of the DNA is from the bitch and there are many studs that never make the list. I believe the stud dog has to sire so many litters to warrant DNA testing. Also if the registries registered with DNA the lineage would be incontrovertable. 

DNA testing was not done until recently in the all the major Horse registries and now it is the norm. No more questions of who "dad " or mom " are. 

I was surprised to learn that it can not be the price as horse DNA tests ( from hair follicle or blood) are under $30. 

As a nurse I know alot about genetics and recessive traits often are not "good" traits ( inherited flaws) that seem to keep getting bred in despite the mission of good breeders to breed out defects. Keeping track of what recessive traits are incertain lines could help dog breeding to breed out problems ( such as luxating patella, collapsing trachea and liver abnormalities in Malts & Yorkies and hip dysplasia in many big breeds) and perhaps introduce new breeds with less health issues and more desirable traits.

In fact I am not sure why the preiminent reputable breeders don't push for it. It would only boost their reputations and reward years of work.

In the future we will see genetics introduced into dog breeding big time. DNA is a term everyone knows now. We are in the infancy of understanding true genetics and applying it to dog breeding will definitely happen.

Its nice to have different breeds with different looks and traits, but health should be even more important. 

If it makes dogs healthier and live better lives I am all for it.


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## tygrr_lily (Aug 22, 2007)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 12:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765806


> Most dog breeds were created within the past couple hundred years.
> 
> A great breed to look at that was recently created is the Dogo Argentino. The Dogo was specifically created to hunt wild boar that had been inappropriately introducted to places like Texas. The Dogo is a combination of a great many breeds with the sole intent to create a dog that would excell at this job.
> 
> ...


thank you for posting this. i emailed it to my sister, who's friend is about to buy a yorkie-shih tzu mix off of kijiji :bysmilie:


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

The thing with breeding "designer dogs" is that those breeding them have no GOAL when doing so. They don't intend to create a new breed of dog. They are simply taking two different breeds and breeding them create a first generation cross (ie lab/poodle mix, yorkie/poodle mix, maltese/yorkie mix, etc). AKC will not accept a new "Breed" if it's a cross of only two breeds. People that breed "designer dogs" are just putting two dogs together and getting "cute puppies" (all puppies are cute of course) but really have no idea how these puppies will mature..the difference in looks really varies when you intermix. I've never heard of a designer breeder doing any type of health screening either. They'd truly have double the work of a purebred breeder as they'd have to research both breeds and health screen for genetic illness that affect both breeds. 

There are still groups creating new breeds of dogs...but these people are doing it with a goal in mind. That's the difference between people actively looking to create a new breed and those that just breed these designer mixes. Designer breeders are just looking to create pet quality puppies and make money off of them.

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 21 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765814


> I would really love to hear your feedback on Biewer Terriers. I hear so much about them now and wondered if this was for real or just another designer dog.
> 
> http://biewer-btca.com/[/B]



QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 21 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765890


> QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 02:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765877





> I don't know much about Biewer's, but was under the impression that they are recognized in other countries sort of like Parti Poodles here in the U.S. They are not accepted by AKC, but widely accepted in Europe. Again, I don't know for sure on the Biewers, but that was the impression I have gotten.[/B]


From what I understand, the breed club has done an amazing amount of research into genetics to prove that Biewers are indeed a separate breed with a unique standard, although they are not yet recognized by the AKC. Parti's are just a color fault according to the YTCA, but can be AKC registered.

I belong to a Yorkie forum and this is always a hot topic. People deliberately breed color faults like parti's, chocolates and goldens, advertise them as "rare" and charge more. :thmbdn: 

I wondered if the Biewers were the real deal or just another designer dog.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The biewers are a very controversial topic, especially among the Biewer clubs in the US. The BTCA is the only club in America that calls them "Biewer Terriers" and claims they are their own breed. They used the MARS test to determine this, but the MARS test is only about 70% accurate. Did you know the test results came back claiming many different breeds, including the Bermese Mountain dog?? There is no way a Bermese Mountain Dog was used to create the Biewer. The BTCA is claiming that the Biewer is it's own breed, seperate from the Yorkshire Terrier because they want to get them recognized as an AKC breed.

However, every other biewer club in the US (and the biewer clubs in Germany where the Biewer originate) still call the Biewer a "Biewer Yorshire a la Pom Pon" and say that the biewer originated from two purebred standard colored yorkies. They have the same standard as a yorkshire terrier except in regards to color, and they have a specific standard regarding that color and placement of color on the body. And their tails are not docked, as docking tails is illegal in Germany. Basically the biewer originated the same way the Parti Yorkie did in America..supposedly from two purebred, standard colored yorkies.

There is a LOT of fighting among the two main American Biewer clubs. A lot a lot a lot..I emphasis this. They do NOT get along at all and do not even agree on what kind of dog the biewer is. The one group that says they are Yorkies believes that the BTCA is claiming biewers are their own breed just so that they are able to get them AKC recognized and therefor sell more puppies. They have to do this because AKC would not recognize Biewers as there own breed if they were only a color variation of the Yorkshire...and the YTCA will not recognize off colored yorkies.

I truly think we'll never truly be able to know whether the Parti Yorkie and the Biewers did in fact originate from two purebred yorkies or if there was a mix back in there somewhere... It's probably just going to be one of those topics that continues to be controversial. I mean if their own "Breed" clubs can't even agree on whether or not they are a Yorkshire Terrier or a "Biewer Terrier" then how is the public supposed to know what they are?


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (EmmasMommy @ Apr 21 2009, 12:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765895


> I only wish that all dogs, (mutt or pure blooded) , were registered with DNA from both parents. I know the big time "stud" dogs do now but 1/2 of the DNA is from the bitch and there are many studs that never make the list. I believe the stud dog has to sire so many litters to warrant DNA testing. Also if the registries registered with DNA the lineage would be incontrovertable.
> 
> DNA testing was not done until recently in the all the major Horse registries and now it is the norm. No more questions of who "dad " or mom " are.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed reading your post Cat. Thanks for your well thought out aproach. :ThankYou:


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Apr 21 2009, 02:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765885


> From my point of view, being 'recognized' by AKC or any other group has little to do with the question of can we except that people do breed dogs that become new breeds. AKC does only if you wish to show with AKC. There are lots that just have their own breed registery for a stud book or pedigrees.
> 
> I've been to a Rare Breed Dog Show here and at that time Havanese weren't AKC so they were there, also Cotons and Mini Aussies and a cute one called MiKi's. Trouble I see with MiKi's is the variation they are still getting. Some have prick ears, some flop ears, etc. Of course there are AKC breeds that have both, like Paps.[/B]


This is a bit off topic. 

I love Mi-Kis, but they are very expensive! They are a mixed with maltese, paps, and chins. People do consider them a breed, but like Furbaby's Mommie said, they get many different variations and aren't consistent with the "look" of the breed. They just look like another designer breed to me.
I also love Biewers, but since there are few beiwers in the USA and were all imported from Europe, they are super expensive as well. Both of these breeds are typical maltese puppy prices though


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

What do you guys think of this breeder?

http://www.buttercuppuppies.com/

I think she out for money but when I asked her what those dogs are mixed with she gave no answer and she sells teacups. But what if other breeders that sold mixes were really was trying to "create" a new breed. 
How do we know if breeders are trying to create a new breed or just breeding mixes for money?

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble, I'm just curious about this topic as well.... Glad somebody asked this question


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Apr 21 2009, 03:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765912


> QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Apr 21 2009, 02:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765885





> From my point of view, being 'recognized' by AKC or any other group has little to do with the question of can we except that people do breed dogs that become new breeds. AKC does only if you wish to show with AKC. There are lots that just have their own breed registery for a stud book or pedigrees.
> 
> I've been to a Rare Breed Dog Show here and at that time Havanese weren't AKC so they were there, also Cotons and Mini Aussies and a cute one called MiKi's. Trouble I see with MiKi's is the variation they are still getting. Some have prick ears, some flop ears, etc. Of course there are AKC breeds that have both, like Paps.[/B]


This is a bit off topic. 

I love Mi-Kis, but they are very expensive! They are a mixed with maltese, paps, and chins. People do consider them a breed, but like Furbaby's Mommie said, they get many different variations and aren't consistent with the "look" of the breed. They just look like another designer breed to me.
I also love Biewers, but since there are few beiwers in the USA and were all imported from Europe, they are super expensive as well. Both of these breeds are typical maltese puppy prices though 
[/B][/QUOTE]

I know the Mi-Ki people are saying they are a purebred breed of their own, but that's my problem with them too...they are VERY inconsistant with their look. To be a purebred dog, the breed must breed true and consistant. The only differences should be coat colors and possibly coat type (long/short). They too just seem like a designer mix because of the inconstistancies.

I think Biewers are gorgeous when they look like they are supposed to...like a yorkshire terrier (except black, gold and white)...I see a lot of biewers that don't resemble yorkies at all though..but then I've seen some beautiful ones. There are actually many biewer breeders in the US now...although I don't know if that's a good thing because the backyard breeders and mills are getting these dogs now. But biewers have decreased in price as well...it really depends on the breeder.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Apr 21 2009, 01:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765918


> What do you guys think of this breeder?
> 
> http://www.buttercuppuppies.com/
> 
> ...


When I saw the link to that site I knew I remembered seeing it before....
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32156


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Apr 21 2009, 06:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765958


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Apr 21 2009, 01:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765918





> What do you guys think of this breeder?
> 
> http://www.buttercuppuppies.com/
> 
> ...


When I saw the link to that site I knew I remembered seeing it before....
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32156
[/B][/QUOTE]


Yuck! :thmbdn:


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## elly (Sep 11, 2006)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 21 2009, 05:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765964


> QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Apr 21 2009, 06:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765958





> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Apr 21 2009, 01:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765918





> What do you guys think of this breeder?
> 
> http://www.buttercuppuppies.com/
> 
> ...


When I saw the link to that site I knew I remembered seeing it before....
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32156
[/B][/QUOTE]


Yuck! :thmbdn:
[/B][/QUOTE]

Double yuck!


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Apr 21 2009, 03:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765918


> What do you guys think of this breeder?
> 
> http://www.buttercuppuppies.com/
> 
> ...



OMG Look at her breed info page http://www.buttercuppuppies.com/Breeds.html Look what she says about yorkies at the top of the page :shocked: I'm sure her explanation is why so many of my friends have multiple yorkies..idiot. Well at least one crappy breeder isn't breeding the yorkie to death...but looks like she's making all kinds of mixes with the maltese :angry: And her explanation for not wanting to register AKC anymore..crazy.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

I know. 

What if she's trying to "create" a new breed of dog? Who knows where the "Buttercups" and "English Munchkins" wll be in ten years? What if people actually like them and start buying and breeding them. 
Then what if they create a breed club? 
Like JMM said earlier, many breeds were bred together to create different breeds to perform a job. But what if they were bred solely as companion dogs? Anybody can say they are breeding dogs just as companions. That's not very hard at all. 

Has anyone watched that show on animal planet "Dogs 101"? I learned from that show that most breeds were mixed together with different breeds. Like Yorkies, Labs, Wiemanars, Dobies, ect. I know many breeds that were bred for the same reason but are a seperate breed because they have very, VERY slight differences, that to the naked eye, can be hard to tell the difference. Like both Corgies, Norkolk/Norwich Terriers, Boykin/Field Spaniels, ect. Or a breed may have a slight color variation, but are a seperate breed like the Belgium Tervuren/Sheepdog, ect. 
What makes a breed an actual breed?

I hope this all makes sense for you...LOL


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## mi_ku_5 (Jun 2, 2008)

I think you have to look at the times. A hundred years ago, we weren't needlessly euthanizing millions of dogs, you couldn't get frozen dog sperm or ship dogs all over the globe. Now if you want a OES or a Great Pyrenees, you can have one shipped across the country. A hundred years ago, if you wanted a herding or guardian dog, you bred the dogs that were available to get what you wanted. Also a hundred years ago, people weren't profiting from breeding they way the do today. I think it's possible to create a new breed in these times, but you have to do a lot of work before you ever produce your first litter. You need to have a goal in mind and do tons of research on genetic. I'm still floored that their are people out there dumb enough to believe, that throwing a poodle in the mix, will give you 100% non-shedding dogs. How can anyone be so stupid? A lot of it also has to do with time. Many of the legitamate new breeds aren't even heard of until they are several generations in and breeding true. Their breeders didn't start calling them a new breed and selling them for big bucks as soon as they had their first litter. They often keep or give away the puppies they produce that don't meet their goal. I would love for anyone to explain to me what's so special about a "Morkie/Yorkiepoo/Maltipoo" that justifies breeding them. All three breeds are low shedders, they are all small, and excellent companions. What do you get from breeding them? With our pet overpopulation problem, I think you need a better reason than "they're cute."


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

BREED FOR GREED!!!!

Biewers ( Yorkie and Pom ), Buttercups, MiKi, they all put up a good fight and like I said in the other post, and got banned from the Buttercup site for asking nice questions, why mix when there are tons of Designers in the shelters, already made.


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

Also, have you heard of parti yorkies? They look exactly like Biwers only they are cheaper because they are bred by puppymills.


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## EmmasMommy (Jun 2, 2008)

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Apr 21 2009, 04:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765908


> The thing with breeding "designer dogs" is that those breeding them have no GOAL when doing so. They don't intend to create a new breed of dog. They are simply taking two different breeds and breeding them create a first generation cross (ie lab/poodle mix, yorkie/poodle mix, maltese/yorkie mix, etc). AKC will not accept a new "Breed" if it's a cross of only two breeds. People that breed "designer dogs" are just putting two dogs together and getting "cute puppies" (all puppies are cute of course) but really have no idea how these puppies will mature..the difference in looks really varies when you intermix. I've never heard of a designer breeder doing any type of health screening either. They'd truly have double the work of a purebred breeder as they'd have to research both breeds and health screen for genetic illness that affect both breeds.
> 
> There are still groups creating new breeds of dogs...but these people are doing it with a goal in mind. That's the difference between people actively looking to create a new breed and those that just breed these designer mixes. Designer breeders are just looking to create pet quality puppies and make money off of them.
> 
> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 21 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765814





> I would really love to hear your feedback on Biewer Terriers. I hear so much about them now and wondered if this was for real or just another designer dog.
> 
> http://biewer-btca.com/[/B]



QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 21 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765890


> QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 02:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765877





> I don't know much about Biewer's, but was under the impression that they are recognized in other countries sort of like Parti Poodles here in the U.S. They are not accepted by AKC, but widely accepted in Europe. Again, I don't know for sure on the Biewers, but that was the impression I have gotten.[/B]


From what I understand, the breed club has done an amazing amount of research into genetics to prove that Biewers are indeed a separate breed with a unique standard, although they are not yet recognized by the AKC. Parti's are just a color fault according to the YTCA, but can be AKC registered.

I belong to a Yorkie forum and this is always a hot topic. People deliberately breed color faults like parti's, chocolates and goldens, advertise them as "rare" and charge more. :thmbdn: 

I wondered if the Biewers were the real deal or just another designer dog.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The biewers are a very controversial topic, especially among the Biewer clubs in the US. The BTCA is the only club in America that calls them "Biewer Terriers" and claims they are their own breed. They used the MARS test to determine this, but the MARS test is only about 70% accurate. Did you know the test results came back claiming many different breeds, including the Bermese Mountain dog?? There is no way a Bermese Mountain Dog was used to create the Biewer. The BTCA is claiming that the Biewer is it's own breed, seperate from the Yorkshire Terrier because they want to get them recognized as an AKC breed.

However, every other biewer club in the US (and the biewer clubs in Germany where the Biewer originate) still call the Biewer a "Biewer Yorshire a la Pom Pon" and say that the biewer originated from two purebred standard colored yorkies. They have the same standard as a yorkshire terrier except in regards to color, and they have a specific standard regarding that color and placement of color on the body. And their tails are not docked, as docking tails is illegal in Germany. Basically the biewer originated the same way the Parti Yorkie did in America..supposedly from two purebred, standard colored yorkies.

There is a LOT of fighting among the two main American Biewer clubs. A lot a lot a lot..I emphasis this. They do NOT get along at all and do not even agree on what kind of dog the biewer is. The one group that says they are Yorkies believes that the BTCA is claiming biewers are their own breed just so that they are able to get them AKC recognized and therefor sell more puppies. They have to do this because AKC would not recognize Biewers as there own breed if they were only a color variation of the Yorkshire...and the YTCA will not recognize off colored yorkies.

I truly think we'll never truly be able to know whether the Parti Yorkie and the Biewers did in fact originate from two purebred yorkies or if there was a mix back in there somewhere... It's probably just going to be one of those topics that continues to be controversial. I mean if their own "Breed" clubs can't even agree on whether or not they are a Yorkshire Terrier or a "Biewer Terrier" then how is the public supposed to know what they are?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Recessive traits usually need both parents to have a gene for certain traits, they are part of the DNA gene tic code but not "seen". Many health related issues are recessive.
In the canine world genes are also in pairs ( like humans) and there are dominant genes and recessive genes.
Genetically a dog of a completely different "look" can be related to another, much different dog breed . That Biewer very well COULD have Bermese Mountain dog in it. Of course it most probably was quite a bit back in its ancestry, but genetically it could very easily be possible. The more generations gone by the less they would look like the parent, grand parent, great grands, etc. 

Here is an example:

Think of it like a human........ the human has blue eyes and blonde hair and is fair skinned........ the person marrys into a deep skinned brown eyed, dk brown haired family.......odds are they offspring would look like a "combo" kid, med tan , brown hair briown eyes, if the next 4 generations do not inclue any blue eyed, blonde, fair skinned into the gene pool of the parents, odds are most kids will all "look like " the original first generation darker parent..........BUT genetically many of the 4 generations probably carry the recessive trait genes and could produce a kid with any or all of the recessive traits. This is expecially favorable if the pair both have the recessive genes even if its from 20 generations ago......it could be "hidden" ( not expressed)

So a very small Yorkie type dog could have a great grandparent that looks completely NON-Yorkie, but may exhibit color oddities or other recessive traits-This can work favorably and unfavorably depending on the issue thats inherited. "Color" may be the sought after trait but maybe its linked with genes of a genetically linked health issue.

Responsible breeding includes looking for many many generations of good health along with great conformation. And no matter how good they are , even great breeders can produce pups with undesirable or less desirable traits. I believe the better breeders trade-sell dogs because they trust each other and the many generations of work needed to improve the odds of good results. Unfortunately, if there is a more narrow gene pool there is more likelihood of recessive traits showing themselves. Some breeders would breed close relatives to have recessive traits show themselves by being expressed.

I hope this is not too heavy. Fortunately the Maltese has a BIG gene pool with thousands of years and generations.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (EmmasMommy @ Apr 22 2009, 07:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766117


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Apr 21 2009, 04:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765908





> The thing with breeding "designer dogs" is that those breeding them have no GOAL when doing so. They don't intend to create a new breed of dog. They are simply taking two different breeds and breeding them create a first generation cross (ie lab/poodle mix, yorkie/poodle mix, maltese/yorkie mix, etc). AKC will not accept a new "Breed" if it's a cross of only two breeds. People that breed "designer dogs" are just putting two dogs together and getting "cute puppies" (all puppies are cute of course) but really have no idea how these puppies will mature..the difference in looks really varies when you intermix. I've never heard of a designer breeder doing any type of health screening either. They'd truly have double the work of a purebred breeder as they'd have to research both breeds and health screen for genetic illness that affect both breeds.
> 
> There are still groups creating new breeds of dogs...but these people are doing it with a goal in mind. That's the difference between people actively looking to create a new breed and those that just breed these designer mixes. Designer breeders are just looking to create pet quality puppies and make money off of them.
> 
> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 21 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765814





> I would really love to hear your feedback on Biewer Terriers. I hear so much about them now and wondered if this was for real or just another designer dog.
> 
> http://biewer-btca.com/[/B]



QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 21 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765890


> QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 21 2009, 02:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=765877





> I don't know much about Biewer's, but was under the impression that they are recognized in other countries sort of like Parti Poodles here in the U.S. They are not accepted by AKC, but widely accepted in Europe. Again, I don't know for sure on the Biewers, but that was the impression I have gotten.[/B]


From what I understand, the breed club has done an amazing amount of research into genetics to prove that Biewers are indeed a separate breed with a unique standard, although they are not yet recognized by the AKC. Parti's are just a color fault according to the YTCA, but can be AKC registered.

I belong to a Yorkie forum and this is always a hot topic. People deliberately breed color faults like parti's, chocolates and goldens, advertise them as "rare" and charge more. :thmbdn: 

I wondered if the Biewers were the real deal or just another designer dog.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The biewers are a very controversial topic, especially among the Biewer clubs in the US. The BTCA is the only club in America that calls them "Biewer Terriers" and claims they are their own breed. They used the MARS test to determine this, but the MARS test is only about 70% accurate. Did you know the test results came back claiming many different breeds, including the Bermese Mountain dog?? There is no way a Bermese Mountain Dog was used to create the Biewer. The BTCA is claiming that the Biewer is it's own breed, seperate from the Yorkshire Terrier because they want to get them recognized as an AKC breed.

However, every other biewer club in the US (and the biewer clubs in Germany where the Biewer originate) still call the Biewer a "Biewer Yorshire a la Pom Pon" and say that the biewer originated from two purebred standard colored yorkies. They have the same standard as a yorkshire terrier except in regards to color, and they have a specific standard regarding that color and placement of color on the body. And their tails are not docked, as docking tails is illegal in Germany. Basically the biewer originated the same way the Parti Yorkie did in America..supposedly from two purebred, standard colored yorkies.

There is a LOT of fighting among the two main American Biewer clubs. A lot a lot a lot..I emphasis this. They do NOT get along at all and do not even agree on what kind of dog the biewer is. The one group that says they are Yorkies believes that the BTCA is claiming biewers are their own breed just so that they are able to get them AKC recognized and therefor sell more puppies. They have to do this because AKC would not recognize Biewers as there own breed if they were only a color variation of the Yorkshire...and the YTCA will not recognize off colored yorkies.

I truly think we'll never truly be able to know whether the Parti Yorkie and the Biewers did in fact originate from two purebred yorkies or if there was a mix back in there somewhere... It's probably just going to be one of those topics that continues to be controversial. I mean if their own "Breed" clubs can't even agree on whether or not they are a Yorkshire Terrier or a "Biewer Terrier" then how is the public supposed to know what they are?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Recessive traits usually need both parents to have a gene for certain traits, they are part of the DNA gene tic code but not "seen". Many health related issues are recessive.
In the canine world genes are also in pairs ( like humans) and there are dominant genes and recessive genes.
Genetically a dog of a completely different "look" can be related to another, much different dog breed . That Biewer very well COULD have Bermese Mountain dog in it. Of course it most probably was quite a bit back in its ancestry, but genetically it could very easily be possible. The more generations gone by the less they would look like the parent, grand parent, great grands, etc. 

Here is an example:

Think of it like a human........ the human has blue eyes and blonde hair and is fair skinned........ the person marrys into a deep skinned brown eyed, dk brown haired family.......odds are they offspring would look like a "combo" kid, med tan , brown hair briown eyes, if the next 4 generations do not inclue any blue eyed, blonde, fair skinned into the gene pool of the parents, odds are most kids will all "look like " the original first generation darker parent..........BUT genetically many of the 4 generations probably carry the recessive trait genes and could produce a kid with any or all of the recessive traits. This is expecially favorable if the pair both have the recessive genes even if its from 20 generations ago......it could be "hidden" ( not expressed)

So a very small Yorkie type dog could have a great grandparent that looks completely NON-Yorkie, but may exhibit color oddities or other recessive traits-This can work favorably and unfavorably depending on the issue thats inherited. "Color" may be the sought after trait but maybe its linked with genes of a genetically linked health issue.

Responsible breeding includes looking for many many generations of good health along with great conformation. And no matter how good they are , even great breeders can produce pups with undesirable or less desirable traits. I believe the better breeders trade-sell dogs because they trust each other and the many generations of work needed to improve the odds of good results. Unfortunately, if there is a more narrow gene pool there is more likelihood of recessive traits showing themselves. Some breeders would breed close relatives to have recessive traits show themselves by being expressed.

I hope this is not too heavy. Fortunately the Maltese has a BIG gene pool with thousands of years and generations.
[/B][/QUOTE]


[attachment=51505:goodpost.gif] Thanks for the explanation!


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (EmmasMommy @ Apr 22 2009, 04:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766117


> Recessive traits usually need both parents to have a gene for certain traits, they are part of the DNA gene tic code but not "seen". Many health related issues are recessive.
> In the canine world genes are also in pairs ( like humans) and there are dominant genes and recessive genes.
> Genetically a dog of a completely different "look" can be related to another, much different dog breed . That Biewer very well COULD have Bermese Mountain dog in it. Of course it most probably was quite a bit back in its ancestry, but genetically it could very easily be possible. The more generations gone by the less they would look like the parent, grand parent, great grands, etc.
> 
> ...


Wow what a good explanation. This should be permanently posted (pinned). There are just so many people who ask questions about breeding and genetics. There is so little understanding about this subject where our dogs are concerned, especially the recessive genes that can cause a problem generations down the line.
Thanks Catherine! :goodpost:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Apr 22 2009, 07:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766116


> Also, have you heard of parti yorkies? They look exactly like Biwers only they are cheaper because they are bred by puppymills.[/B]



They are popular with backyard breeders, too, who charge big prices!


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Apr 22 2009, 06:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766116


> Also, have you heard of parti yorkies? They look exactly like Biwers only they are cheaper because they are bred by puppymills.[/B]


Actually, I usually see it the other way around. I usually see the Partis advertised at $4000plus whereas biewers are more often $2000-$3000. Although I've seen both go for thousands and both advertised much lower. There was recently a biewer puppy that sold for only $400 on YorkieTalk and he had already been neutered and bile acid tested, and I know someone that sells her biewer puppies for $1500 and under. It seems like the biewer prices have decreased quite a bit overall whereas partis have pretty much stayed very high. Backyard breeders and puppymills are increasingly adding both biewers and partis to their kennels so I'm sure the prices will go down even more for both...actually I've seen many "biewer" and "parti yorkie" puppies advertised that are probably random mixes...I've been told by someone that owns a parti yorkie that most of the partis you see advertised on sites like puppyfind are really a yorkie mixed with something else.

I really dont know enough about genetics and the genetics of the Yorkie to know if it was possible for a parti/piebald gene to exist..some say yes, some say no. So I won't say whether they are a mix or a purebred yorkie...I do know a lot of people are advertising dogs they know are mixes as partis though. And I do know that partis are not recognized by the YTCA or allowed to be shown... The Biewers have their own german registry and an actual standard which is very similar to the Yorkshire Terrier standard with changes and specifics regarding the biewer color.

Biewers have only been around since the 1980s and it wasn't until the 90's I believe that they started to grow in popularity.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm guessing those "Buttercups" are a mix of Maltese, Poodle or Bichon, and Shih tzu. I'd be curious to know if she breeds a "buttercup" to "buttercup" and actually gets consistant results. It takes years and very careful breeding to get a consistant look, which is required in order to be considered purebred. A breed must breed true. Although it's amazing what backyard breeders and puppymills have done to some purebreds...you see quite a variety of looks with the yorkie and even the maltese now. So many pet maltese I see look more like maltese/poodle mixes. It's a rare thing around here to see a maltese that actually looks like a maltese.


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## Heather_Rochelle (Jun 4, 2008)

My question is even though everyone agrees this is the wrong thing to do and I was seriously blasted for it even though Kaias breeding was a mistake and I have since rectified my mistake. There is documented records that a black pomeranian and maltese mix was known and reconized by the AKC as a Maltese? Why would that be okay? Isn't this the same thing? No one seems to give this a 2nd thought but in Nicholas CUtillo's ?SP? book The Compleate Maltese he even speaks of it? 


QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Apr 22 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766417


> I'm guessing those "Buttercups" are a mix of Maltese, Poodle or Bichon, and Shih tzu. I'd be curious to know if she breeds a "buttercup" to "buttercup" and actually gets consistant results. It takes years and very careful breeding to get a consistant look, which is required in order to be considered purebred. A breed must breed true. Although it's amazing what backyard breeders and puppymills have done to some purebreds...you see quite a variety of looks with the yorkie and even the maltese now. So many pet maltese I see look more like maltese/poodle mixes. It's a rare thing around here to see a maltese that actually looks like a maltese.[/B]


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## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Apr 22 2009, 07:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766417


> I'm guessing those "Buttercups" are a mix of Maltese, Poodle or Bichon, and Shih tzu. I'd be curious to know if she breeds a "buttercup" to "buttercup" and actually gets consistant results. It takes years and very careful breeding to get a consistant look, which is required in order to be considered purebred. A breed must breed true. Although it's amazing what backyard breeders and puppymills have done to some purebreds...you see quite a variety of looks with the yorkie and even the maltese now. So many pet maltese I see look more like maltese/poodle mixes. It's a rare thing around here to see a maltese that actually looks like a maltese.[/B]


She is the ONLY breeder of Buttercups I saw anywhere on the web. Buttercups just look like any other designer breed. AKC will probably never recognize them as a breed because they look too similar to other breeds(as puppies, b/c that is the only pictures I see of them), like Lhasas, Havanese, Cotons, ect. What do they look like grown up? Is it a consistent look?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Does anyone remember the Toy Munchkin scam about ten years ago? They were a new "rare" breed that people paid thousands of dollars for back when that was not the normal price for a purebred dog.

It turns out they were just Pomeranian/Chihuahua mixes with funny haircuts!

[attachment=51549:yow.jpg]

[attachment=51550:TDRToyMunchkin05.jpg]

Toy Munchkins- Buyer Beware Barkerick

(written by Lazerpoodle)

Oh dear! You've discovered: "Toy Munchkin!"
A cross-breed which costs: A big Bunchkin!
Their web sites are down,
Cause wee dog folk barked this Sound:
"Half Chihuahua/Half Pom: Out-to-Lunchkin!"

Their web site said: "Toy Munchkins, such Tots!,
Will fit nicely upon their owner's Yachts!"
In my humble O., Those breeders don't know,
Their half-asked breeds from their little Whot's-Whot's!

If you wish a sound toy breed; Delightful;
Get a Pom, or a Peke. Buy a bike Full!
For what Munchkin breeders peddle,
Shall win no AKC medal!
Take paws from these posters; Insightful.

http://www.sunshineband.org/articles/MUTTS.shtml


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 23 2009, 10:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766726


> Does anyone remember the Toy Munchkin scam about ten years ago? They were a new "rare" breed that people paid thousands of dollars for back when that was not the normal price for a purebred dog.
> 
> It turns out they were just Pomeranian/Chihuahua mixes with funny haircuts!
> 
> ...



LOL yes..the little Lion dogs. That Buttercup breeder has munchkins on her site too. You can tell they have a lot of pom in them, whatever they are.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 23 2009, 10:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766726


> Does anyone remember the Toy Munchkin scam about ten years ago? They were a new "rare" breed that people paid thousands of dollars for back when that was not the normal price for a purebred dog.
> 
> It turns out they were just Pomeranian/Chihuahua mixes with funny haircuts!
> 
> ...


Marj - LMAO ~ I remember a story about this from years ago. Gosh, I had forgotten all about it. :HistericalSmiley: 

The pic, you posted, absolutely cracks me up. :smrofl:


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Apr 23 2009, 11:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=767067


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Apr 23 2009, 10:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766726





> Does anyone remember the Toy Munchkin scam about ten years ago? They were a new "rare" breed that people paid thousands of dollars for back when that was not the normal price for a purebred dog.
> 
> It turns out they were just Pomeranian/Chihuahua mixes with funny haircuts!
> 
> ...


Marj - LMAO ~ I remember a story about this from years ago. Gosh, I had forgotten all about it. :HistericalSmiley: 

The pic, you posted, absolutely cracks me up. :smrofl:
[/B][/QUOTE]


I think that was started because of the notoriety of Mr. Winkle. Remember him? The cute little pom cut
in a teddy bear hairdo.


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