# Is is legal for a breeder to sell an 8 week old?



## Moxie'smom (Dec 16, 2007)

<span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium">A friend of mine just bought a Maltese puppy from supposedly a good breeder. (I'm still very questionable about how good this breeder is.) 

She lives out of state so I hadn't spoken to her in a while and prior to her purchase. ( She wanted a Malt, puppy mix but I guess couldn't find one?) Anyway, when she told me the news I asked how old the puppy was. She said 8 WEEKS old! 

I was soo surprised. She didn't know the name of the breeder off hand, but I was shocked that a breeder could not only sell an 8 week old puppy, but let my friend take it home with her when she already has 2 dogs in the house. One small terrier and one very big dog. 

Isn't it unsafe for a puppy at that age to be around other dogs (even if they're your dogs!) at such an early age? 

Isn't is also irresponsible for that breeder to let such a small puppy into a house before it's had all their shots and when it has been barely away from it's mommy for such a short period of time?

I am waiting for her next phone call to let me know who the breeder is so I can check them out. I always thought 12 weeks was the minimum time a good breeder would let a puppy go. I also thought it was a law in most states. The puppy is only 2.3 pounds!

I keep hearing this more and more. I see it here too and it concerns me. I worry about the puppy's health. I also thought it was against the law to let a puppy go so young. 

Some one enlighten me please!...I only wish I would have called my friend back sooner, I could have educated her a little more. I really didn't think she was serious the last time I spoke to her about getting another dog, let alone a maltese. She didn't even know about Nutrical from the breeder???? And She paid serious money for this pup....and says the breeder is a good one...but in all seriousness it doesn't sound very good and responsible to me at all. 

She lives in NV.</span>


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## Missy&Maggie (Jun 17, 2007)

It definitely sounds like she didn't get the puppy from a "good" breeder. I think that the legal age at which a puppy can be sold is 8 weeks. The AMA and good Maltese breeders keep the puppies for 12 weeks prior to sale. 

It is really sad that there are a lot of backyard breeders who are in it for the money and don't really care about the puppies well being.

Hopefully you can help her friend make sure that her puppy is healthy and doesn't become hypoglycemic!

Edit: Helpful website. Animal Law


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## Lisacisme (Feb 21, 2008)

It really is sad that someone will let their puppies go so early. From everything I've read for Maltese, 12 weeks is the ideal age and good breeders will keep the pups until that age minimum.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Most states the law is between 6-8 weeks. However, for toy breeds, 12 weeks is the appropriate age, regardless of any laws.


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## lillady (Jan 25, 2007)

IMO-a reputable breeder wouldn't let a toy breed go before 12 weeks. A lot of "Prisoner of Greed" breeders do though, seemingly to make room for more litters. My late Corky was let go at 8 weeks, when I didn't know better and looking back at pictures-I can't believe I had a puppy so small.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Without everyone grabbing their firearms and without everyone parroting what's been passed down for years, can we have some dialogue about this and can we post some links to current studies which validate the 12 week rule? I honestly want to know why the twelve week rule applies to toy breeds and I want to be sure this is what Vets., Behavorists, etc. say about toy breeds CURRENTLY. I'd like to see some links to studies. The American Veterinary Medical Association site recommends 6 - 10 weeks (no exclusions for toy breeds). The American Animal Hospital Association state in their "Bringing Up Puppy" recommendations that the 12 week socialization phase is over at 12 weeks. I've already posted what some of the top trainers and behaviorists recommend regarding puppy socialization and development and I definitely haven't found any recommendations for exceptions to toy breeds on their sites YET. I more than anyone else want what's best in all aspects of maltese development - both physically AND behaviorally and that's why I'm looking for fresh answers/fresh looks at the issue.


Joy


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> Without everyone grabbing their firearms and without everyone parroting what's been passed down for years, can we have some dialogue about this and can we post some links to current studies which validate the 12 week rule? I honestly want to know why the twelve week rule applies to toy breeds and I want to be sure this is what Vets., Behavorists, etc. say about toy breeds CURRENTLY. I'd like to see some links to studies. The American Veterinary Medical Association site recommends 6 - 10 weeks (no exclusions for toy breeds). The American Animal Hospital Association state in their "Bringing Up Puppy" recommendations that the 12 week socialization phase is over at 12 weeks. I've already posted what some of the top trainers and behaviorists recommend regarding puppy socialization and development and I definitely haven't found any recommendations for exceptions to toy breeds on their sites YET. I more than anyone else want what's best in all aspects of maltese development - both physically AND behaviorally and that's why I'm looking for fresh answers/fresh looks at the issue.
> 
> 
> Joy[/B]


Here you go. From Vanitysmom/Foxstone Maltese:

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm

Of course, the fact that the AMA states in their Code of Ethics that Maltese breeders should keep puppies until at least 12 weeks old preempts any generic recommendations from vets, trainers, etc. Pure and simple, if a breeder violates any part of the breed club code, it's a huge red flag.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

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Does it make sense that the AMA would ignore Veterinary and Behavorists' recommendations?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> Does it make sense that the AMA would ignore Veterinary and Behavorists' recommendations?[/B]



You have to remember that recommendations are generalized for the "average" dog population. If you look around at other toy breeds, you will see similar recommendations for holding the pups longer. It is not a matter of the AMA and other toy breed clubs ignoring these recommendations. It is that they realize toy breed pups are not the "average" in terms of development and the "rules" are inappropriate for them. 

Here's why...go look at an 8 week old border collie puppy and an 8 week old Maltese puppy. Now tell me that one of them is not obviously less mature. This maturity includes things like:
Maltese puppies are often still nursing regularly until 6-8 weeks of age. Trust me that border collie's dam was out of there weeks ago. For a breeder to send home a 2lb pup barely weaned is a disaster waiting to happen. 
The Maltese is very small and fragile. This includes health wise (ie hypoglycemia). The border collie physically is beyond this stage. This is a large pup with plenty of substance. Missing a meal won't do any harm. Missing a meal could mean a dead Maltese puppy. 

Socialization periods do not require complete separation from breeder and litter. I've gotten most of my Maltese puppies at 16+ weeks of age. VERY well socialized because the breeders were responsible and took care of that. You are right that you are about to hit on a fear period at 3-4 months...but there are many of these "moments" and if your pup had a good start, you can continue that with no problems. 

I will be 100% honest as a dog trainer...what I do with an 8 week old medium/large breed pup would be too intense for an 8 week old Maltese. They're too immature. And I train my Maltese in competitive obedience and agility...I think the breed is incredibly capable, but they're physically and mentally slower to mature than larger dogs.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

Joy I do not know if this may be want you are referring to. I have it posted on my site. I also posted it here but cant find it. So here is the link.........

http://www.clabecmaltese.com/PuppyStages.html


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

The Australian Kennel Club supports the belief that a puppy can be sold at 8 weeks of age , and that is what breeders here do with no problems . ALL my pups were small dog breeds , sold at 8 weeks with none of the problems I have heard here . In most countries the 12 week rule is NOT followed even by the top breeders . The American way is not necessarily the only way . Sarah

17. A member shall not, within Australia, sell or otherwise transfer from that member’s care any puppy under eight [8] weeks of age without the approval of the member’s Member Body. 

18. A member shall not export a puppy under the age of eleven [11] weeks, or such greater age permitted under the livestock import requirements of the country to which the puppy is being exported.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> The Australian Kennel Club supports the belief that a puppy can be sold at 8 weeks of age , and that is what breeders here do with no problems . ALL my pups were small dog breeds , sold at 8 weeks with none of the problems I have heard here . In most countries the 12 week rule is NOT followed even by the top breeders . The American way is not necessarily the only way . Sarah[/B]



You know I'm wondering if that could play a part in why Maltese are the most dumped dogs in Australia,
due to aggression.


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

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 Maltese are not more aggressive here , most Maltese in pounds are usually picked up by rescue , to do so they are required to pass a temperament test . Maltese are dumped here because , they are cheap to buy ( making them disposable to bad owners ) and as a breed they are not that popular . The primary socialization period for dogs begins at 3 weeks of age and is diminishing by 12 weeks. Peak sensitivity is at 6 to 8 weeks. Beyond 12 weeks there is a tendency to act fearfully towards new people, animals and situations. Sarah


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

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I've never known a maltese that is less friendly at 12 weeks compared to a little 8 wk old pup. Yes, they may be more fearful (or a better word might be cautious) of other animals as this is what staying with the mother teaches them from 8-12 weeks. I dare say the dumping of maltese there is probably due to bad breeding from those backyard breeders which may or may not contribute to ill temperments, as well as many other problems, just as our backyard breeders do in the states.


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

Actually that was a quote from scientific research not a personal opinion  Sarah ( sorry for not using quote marks )


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

I don't have any statisics to show. I have had large breed dogs all my life. Even medium sized breeds. I did not have small, toy dogs until my Maltese. I am experienced with Maltese and breeding, whelping, and raising Maltese puppies. I had *NEVER *heard of hypoglycemia in a puppy until I had Maltese. Even with my experience I have puppies who will slip into hypoglycemia during the time mom is weaning them. They have food available to them 24/7. It doesn't matter. You have to be on constant watch. You check on puppies and you see one sleeping quietly. A person without this experience might not check this puppy to be sure he is sleeping and not hypoglycemic. A first time owner would then end up with a dead puppy because they didn't pick up the sleeping puppy and check that he isn't in hypoglycemia. Another issue occurs frequently too. Poop caps. Puppy is nursing mom and eating solid food. Mom stops cleaning butt. Puppy must poop on own. He poops but sits down on it. Now he has a "cap" covering his rectum. If you don't catch that really soon he can get "sickly" from not being able to poop.
Not to mention where the poop has been against the tender skin it can cause red irritated skin. This could happen in the case of someone getting an 8 week old puppy and working 8 hours per day. 
I do know Maltese *DO NOT* mature at the same rate as a larger breed puppy. Lets say you have an 8 week old lab. You have an enclosed yard. You let him go out into the yard to exercise and poop. You leave him alone. Nothing will happen to him. He is bigger and weights in at 10 lbs or so. Now, (this really did happen) your used to having puppies. Again, you have a chain link fenced yard. You put this maybe 2 lbs puppy into the yard and go do something else, come back and cannot find the puppy anywhere in their yard. Frantically they are searching for this *TINY* puppy. You finally find the puppy in the neighbors yard where they have a big dog. Puppy is *DEAD*. Puppy had gone through the chain link fence and the neighbors dog killed it. The sad thing was this person wanted to buy another pup. The puppy wasn't "mine" though the father was my dog. I had puppies available and she wanted to buy another puppy. I don't think so.
Yet, there are some Maltese that would never go through hypoglycemia. They are larger and courser in appearance. But, the smaller Maltese do have problems you have to be on the look out for. 
On Maltese temperament, I find that at 4 months is when they are ready for bonding to another family. I try very hard to place them by that age. I believe most dogs go through a phase of "catch me if you can". That is where leaving a lead on them that you can get ahold of helps. 
Everyone has their own opinion on how old a puppy can be for going to their new home. I have some puppies that are ready to go at 10 weeks but most need to stay until 12 weeks old, it all depends on the individual dog. 
We ourselves hate being lumped into a group of statistics. So, why should we allow all these other people to lump our puppies into one big group? There are exceptions. Each breeder needs to evaluate their puppies and let them go when the puppy is ready, not before. 
JMO
Tina


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## Gennel (Mar 24, 2006)

My first dog was 12 weeks when I got him and I can only speak from my experience. When I got him he was really sweet and quiet . He slept really well the first night home with us.He's been mybaby ever since. We got another about 2 yrs later and she was only 8 weeks when we got her. Well she cried the first week and I did everything I thought would comfort her. She was tiny so I had the warm pad for her ,,bed,toys ,food & water and peepad she slept in our room in her crate,then I put her in a gated area in my room to see if that would help but nothing helped. She seemed to miss her mom if you ask me.It took her 2 weeks to settle in .Our third did not have these problems . He wimpered the first 1-2 nights and thats it.
Some puppies will do well at 10 weeks but 8 is iffy . I just don't think all puppies are the same and to let all of them go at 8 weeks may not always work out well.

Gen


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

Oh no, not this again! LOL. Seriously though... My Chloe came home at 9 weeks old. She wouldn't have been ready at 8 weeks. Her breeder judges when a pup should go on when the individual pup is ready, rarely they may go at 8, most at nine or ten, and rarely they take up to 12 to 14 weeks. Her vet agrees with this, and my own vet agreed with this. I can't see any reason that waiting until 12 weeks would be bad, but I CAN see how getting them home too early would be terrible. Chloe was ready and did very well, was very well adjusted. But, I can see how a pup might be overly scared and not eating well enough on it's own, and that would be a huge mess. Bottom line, I wouldn't take a maltese at eight weeks. I can't see how they would be ready.


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## carolicious (Feb 25, 2008)

to answer the OP's question. 8 weeks is the legal age. Selling a puppy at 8 weeks of age is not something illegal to do, however, like everyone has been mentioning, AMA suggests that maltese puppies be kept up to 12 weeks by the breeder. It is a suggestion, not the law, so selling a puppy at 8 weeks is not illegal. However, since your friend bought the puppy from a "good breeder" and paid serious money, I would guess she did not get her puppy from a breeder on the list of AMA's recommended breeder list or other well known responsible show breeders, but probably someone like a byb. 

I hate this topic, everyone gets so fired up about it and so much tension is created. :smheat:


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## jazak (Feb 12, 2008)

I got Lilly at 5 weeks old. It was a bad situation, and I did not look for it!! When I got Lilly she had very little strength in her back legs. She could scoot, but could not actually get up and walk. Nothing was wrong with her, she was just so young and had not built up the muscle mass yet to be able to support her. She also had NO teeth. I know that 5 weeks is not the issue, but let me tell you, she wasn't firmly on her feet until about 7.5 weeks old, and she did not have all of her teeth until then either. I had to moisten her food, and sometimes literally spoon feed her. By 8 weeks she was eating solid food and getting around well, but it hadn't been long. I realize that maybe some are ready at that age, but I personally would feel much more confident getting a puppy at 12 weeks old.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I don't see any reason not to wait the 12 weeks, whats the big deal???
This thread goes back and forth.Eight weeks yes is the legal age, that doesn't make it right and to me there is no difference from 8 weeks to 9 :blink: 
Every breeders site I have been on (And I have been on alot :smheat: ) says 12 weeks. I mean they are great breeders they know what they are doing, so to me I don't care about statistics
and 9 weeks and 10 weeks, I would rather listen to an experienced breeder and do the best I can for my new pup. They say 12 weeks I 'll wait the 12 weeks then. :biggrin:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't know a lot about the Maltese breed yet, I only know from my recent experience. I got Nikki at 18 weeks. She's very socialized and calm. She has never fussed too much. She's not afraid of loud noises. She's done well with obedience training. We take her everywhere and we haven't had a problem.

I think that good breeders who want the best for their puppies will do what it takes to socialize the dog before they sell it. Letting a puppy go at 8 weeks puts a big responsibility on the new owner who may have their hands full with a full time job and watching the puppy for hypoglycemia, and making sure it is exposed to noises and people, etc. In my opinion a good breeder understands this and wouldn't let a puppy go before 12 weeks. You can argue the point about whose responsibility it is to socialize the Maltese puppy and give it the extra attention it needs, but I think that 12 weeks or more is a safe bet, and why gamble with the odds?

Or you can deal with a breeder who just wants the puppies sold and out of her home at 8 weeks. The new owners might end up with problems because unless they are dilligent and understand socialization, the dog will be a mess later on. I've seen it happen too many times with well-meaning friends who have bought dogs at 8 weeks, and didn't understand what to do with them. They had good intentions, but they didn't know dogs like the breeder knows dogs. 

In my own personal experience, I am so happy with my relaxed, confident, well-adjusted puppy that I don't think I'd ever get a dog younger than 12 weeks. 

I am sure that there are those who know a whole lot more than I about the Maltese breed, I just wanted to put my 02 in about it.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Its not illegal in this country to sell a puppy at 8 weeks of age.

Most Maltese breeders I contacted release their pups at around 9 weeks - does that mean they are not "_good/responsible/reputable/experienced_" breeders? In my opinion, I don't believe so- I guess that definition depends on which country you live in.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

This subject is one that makes my blood boil. :angry: 

Our great breeders are all right!!! They see how important it is to keep a Maltese puppy those extra weeks. Bob and I have also been around Malts, birth to 12 weeks, and it is obvious what that time does for a puppy.

DO NOT BUY FROM THESE BREEDERS THAT SELL MALTESE PUPPIES AT ANYTHING BUT 12 WEEKS.

We had a chance to see an 8 wk puppy from a "puppy mill" lady that I constantly harass. This baby malt had almost no hint of teeth. We brought formula and lots of help to the family that bought the pup. The PM lady gave them a 12 hour guarantee and shoved them out the door!!!!

Want to know who the breeder is and as far as making "designer" mixes ( mutts )......don't get me going on that. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> Its not illegal in this country to sell a puppy at 8 weeks of age.
> 
> Most Maltese breeders I contacted release their pups at around 9 weeks - does that mean they are not "_good/responsible/reputable/experienced_" breeders? In my opinion, I don't believe so- I guess that definition depends on which country you live in.[/B]


I know what your saying and yes I think it's different from country to country.
:biggrin: This is so hard for me to not agree with you also, cause your a friend and a nice person.
But yes I do believe it varies from country to country, hows that :biggrin:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

> Its not illegal in this country to sell a puppy at 8 weeks of age.
> 
> Most Maltese breeders I contacted release their pups at around 9 weeks - does that mean they are not "_good/responsible/reputable/experienced_" breeders? In my opinion, I don't believe so- I guess that definition depends on which country you live in.[/B]



I am not familiar with cultural practices regarding dogs in Australia. I was only speaking about the USA. Perhaps in Australia because it is an accepted and common practice to sell dogs at 9 weeks, the prospective Maltese owners in Australia are more aware of socialization, and the hypoglycemia issue in the Maltese breed, and all goes well for them. 

There are many cultural differences worldwide regarding animals, and I can't speak for other countries. However in the US, I believe for many reasons that it is better for puppies to go home at 12 weeks. Most dog owners in America mean well, but unless they are willing to take the time and effort to research the breed and go the extra mile to raise it properly from day 1, then they should stick to the 12 week rule. This is not a slam on America, it is just the way the culture is here. Most people I know think I am a little eccentric because of the time I put into researching things about my dog. Many times people in the US buy a dog, take it home, and do the best they can without enough knowledge needed to raise the dog well. That is why the shelters here are full of unwanted dogs.


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## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

I think in Australia, the standard is generally a little larger than it is here in the United States. I still don't agree with letting a Maltese puppy go at 8 weeks of age..As a breeder, I can tell you first hand, my puppies would not fare well if I released them at that age.


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

I got Mia at 9 weeks at my insistence and I have the $500+ vet bill to prove it. :smilie_tischkante:


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> I got Mia at 9 weeks at my insistence and I have the $500+ vet bill to prove it. :smilie_tischkante:[/B]


I have also heard of people buying pups from someone else then claiming it was their pups and re-selling them for 1000's more :shocked: This is what I mean people get fooled all the time, it's crazy/
Thats why it's so important for people to really look into breeders and when new info comes up about bad breeders it should be told


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## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

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I think your refering to a Broker Andrea, that is bad business!!!

Over here the Maltese club rule is 10 weeks, but again if the pup is small then the breeder will keep it for longer!


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## LmL (Feb 3, 2007)

I dont post a lot but I thought I'd ask about this b/c it really pisses me off. I was reading about selling pups at 8 weeks old and I was curious if this was happening where I live(California)So I checked my newspaper and...
Somebody is selling maltese at *5 weeks old*! :new_shocked: That cant be legal.. can it??


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## jazak (Feb 12, 2008)

8 weeks is the legal age to be able to sell a puppy. I would suggest calling your local SPCA. I got my Lilly at 5 weeks, and she had NO teeth. They can't be completely weaned when they don't have teeth!!!


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuspuppysaletable.htm


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

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You know I love you too!! :wub: It's ok not to agree 100% all the time, in this case ... it's 'just different'  I know you respect my opinion, as I do yours


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

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Hey, thanks for that. My Buddy :grouphug:


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## honeybun (Mar 6, 2007)

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Maltese are not more aggressive here , most Maltese in pounds are usually picked up by rescue , to do so they are required to pass a temperament test . Maltese are dumped here because , they are cheap to buy ( making them disposable to bad owners ) and as a breed they are not that popular . The primary socialization period for dogs begins at 3 weeks of age and is diminishing by 12 weeks. Peak sensitivity is at 6 to 8 weeks. Beyond 12 weeks there is a tendency to act fearfully towards new people, animals and situations. Sarah  
[/B][/QUOTE]


I've never known a maltese that is less friendly at 12 weeks compared to a little 8 wk old pup. Yes, they may be more fearful (or a better word might be cautious) of other animals as this is what staying with the mother teaches them from 8-12 weeks. I dare say the dumping of maltese there is probably due to bad breeding from those backyard breeders which may or may not contribute to ill temperments, as well as many other problems, just as our backyard breeders do in the states.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Breeders in Australia have had tocut their numbers of dogs they are allowed to have due to councils
applying restrictive numbers on the amount they are allowed to have unless they have permits so this is why in some circumstances they sell the pups by eight tonine weeks, by twelve weeks they have to be registered with the council. They regulate the number of dogs kept by the size of the property.


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## elysian pearls (May 14, 2008)

Here in europe it's normal to sell a (pet) puppy around the age of 9 weeks. In holland the law states that a puppy is not to leave a kennel under the age of 7,5 weeks. But many breeders consider this to be rather early for a maltese, so they leave more around 9 weeks old. 

When I have my first litter I am planning to let them move to their new homes at the age of 9 to 10 weeks. Why? 

The period in which a puppy is most sensitive to new experiences (imprinting phase/first socialization phase) is until 12 weeks old. This way, I am able to socialize the puppies for the most important things myself and they have 2 or 3 weeks of this "sensitive" period left to get used and learn things at their new homes. 

I must add to this: if there is a very small puppy in the bunch, it will leave not as early as 9 weeks.


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## puppymom (Jun 13, 2005)

This subject comes up with the regularity of the seasons here. I think 12 weeks is a great guideline but not written in stone, each animal is an individual and should be evaluated as such. When I got Ty the original plan was for him to stay with the breeder until 12 weeks. He was in a litter of 2 and his littermate died in the early days. For what ever reason the Mom decided early on to wean him and at around 8 weeks (a tad over) the breeder called and said that he was completely weaned, eating solid food and that Mom wasn't interacting much with him. 

I was worried but I brough him home and he did beautifully, we never had any problem with hypoglycemia or any socialization issues. I have a large dog and they got along famously from the moment he entered the house. 

So while I think guidelines are great I think you need to look at each puppy as an individual.


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## shannonb (Feb 4, 2008)

MM - That is kind-of young to go home but that isn't really a small puppy, so she will probably have the same health problems she would have had if she went home at 12 weeks. 
Make sure your friend keeps her off public floors and keeps her life calm and easy for the next few weeks. 

There are lots of 12 week old pups going home that weigh about that - so I wouldn't stress the weight. 

10-12 weeks would have been better but you can help her make the best of it and keep her new baby healthy and happy. 

Shannon 




> I am waiting for her next phone call to let me know who the breeder is so I can check them out. I always thought 12 weeks was the minimum time a good breeder would let a puppy go. I also thought it was a law in most states. The puppy is only 2.3 pounds!
> 
> I keep hearing this more and more. I see it here too and it concerns me. I worry about the puppy's health. I also thought it was against the law to let a puppy go so young.[/B]


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