# About breeders



## Littlemans Mom (Apr 6, 2005)

I have been reading resent posts asking how to go about finding a Maltese and just felt I needed to say a few words on this topic. First let me explain that SM is a great forum filled with a variety of people from all walks of life who come together here for the love of Maltese







We have Maltese from all walks of life as well







They come from top breeders, byb, puppymills, rescues etc. and they are all loved equally by the person that has them and by our members on SM







No matter where they come from we couldn't love them more. That being said I have noticed several new members asking about how to go about getting a Maltese. Now I see posts like that and I have been around here long enough I know how it is going to go , which members will not post to it and ones I am pretty sure will... As a new member to SM people have not been around long, they don't know how we sit up nights waiting to hear the news on the health of one of our members babies when they are sick







or how we cry together when one has gone to Rainbow Bridge







How we get all excited when a member brings home a new fluffbutt...we can't wait to see pictures







But they come here and we welcome them with open arms and try to answer their questions and make them feel welcome







After all we were all newbies at one time or another. Now to what I really wanted to say.....Someone asks about getting a Maltese and members begin to post advice, links, stories and so on. The question is asked and answered truthfully, honestly and with facts to back them up. Then the person doesn't hear what they wanted to hear , they are told about puppymills, byb etc. they then feel like everyone is coming down on them and think the members are "Pedigree snobs" and that because they don't buy from a Champion blood line that they should love their Maltese less







That is not how it is, they asked for advice and just didn't here what they wanted to hear. Maybe if it was looked at from the "Pedigree snobs" point of view they might see that they feel the same way as far as being put down for what they had to say. So both parties end up feeling bad. The advice being given is in the best interest of the breed, for that matter it could be said about all the puppies out there no matter what breed....we just feel very strongly that puppymills need to be stopped and that can only be done by people getting the word out and people not buying from pet stores etc.So please..if you are new to the forum, don't take the advice given as a put down to you, it is meant to help you out


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## TwinsPlus2More (Oct 20, 2006)

As a member new to this forum, but not new to canine forums (I'm a drooler)....I take advice as it is meant to be taken. It is words of wisdom typed out with concern for the canine. I love all 3 of my 4 legged canines. My 2 bassets and my maltese mean the world to me and I appreciate any advice that I seek.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

Laurie,
Thanks for the well written and thoughtfully prepared words.......


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

I agree 100%!


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Some great points, Laurie!! [attachment=15531:attachment] [attachment=15532:attachment]


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Very well said.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Yep, the pups are my main concern. There are times I want to strangle people. Each and every day I look at, and care for, the products of poorly bred Maltese. You have no idea what I would give to put a stop to this crap. I've been through two heart surgeries, many internal specialists, liver shunt surgery, behavior issues, and eye removal. Now if that's not enough, Billy is having patella surgery tomorrow.

Am I pisssed?? You bet your A$$ I am. Someone has to step up to the plate. No animal should be running around with no eye-balls. I'm really upset over the surgery tomorrow. This just sickens me to tears.

Keep up the passion, Ladies!! These little ones need our voice.

Debbie and Gang


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## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:
"That is not how it is, they asked for advice and just didn't here what they wanted to hear"

If I quickly see (it is usually obvious) after a couple of "reply backs" from a poster seeking how to find a good Maltese...that they have a mindset and are obviously IGNORING and BLOCKING the advice of longtime posters/Maltese owners...that have taken time out of their busy lives to to try to be helpful to the poster and to the breed... I don't spend a lot of time on that thread.
I figure why waste anymore precious time on the poster. It is falling on deaf ears anyway.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Yeah, what you said! I personally never thought I'd be a pedigree snob because it sure had absolutely NO BEARING whatsoever when I got Lucy. In fact, I felt like I had to apologize for her champion lines and how much I paid for her because I didn't want people to think that i was 'that' kind of a person (a snob) Oh how my tune has changed, LOL!


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> Yeah, what you said! I personally never thought I'd be a pedigree snob because it sure had absolutely NO BEARING whatsoever when I got Lucy. In fact, I felt like I had to apologize for her champion lines and how much I paid for her because I didn't want people to think that i was 'that' kind of a person (a snob) Oh how my tune has changed, LOL![/B]


Why you snob, you!! How dare you do the responsible thing and buy from an equally responsible breeder









For me there are only two choices. Pay the money, and buy from a reputable breeder or, go to the nearest shelter/rescue. Supporting puppymills, petstores, and BYB's is NOT an option.

Keep up the snobbery (I don't think that's a word) but keep it up anyway


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> Yep, the pups are my main concern. There are times I want to strangle people. Each and every day I look at, and care for, the products of poorly bred Maltese. You have no idea what I would give to put a stop to this crap. I've been through two heart surgeries, many internal specialists, liver shunt surgery, behavior issues, and eye removal. Now if that's not enough, Billy is having patella surgery tomorrow.
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> Am I pisssed?? You bet your A$$ I am. Someone has to step up to the plate. No animal should be running around with no eye-balls. I'm really upset over the surgery tomorrow. This just sickens me to tears.
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Debbie, thank you for sharing your perspective as the "mop up" person when people don't listen and don't buy a puppy from a reputable breeder.

Thank heavens there are people like you out there to take in these special souls when people won't take responsibility for their poor decisions.

These little ones do have our voice. Not every one will listen, but many do. And that makes it worth it.


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## Bonnie's Mommie (Mar 2, 2006)

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Deb, snobbery is a word!


















And I agree, there are two choices. Get a rescue or pay for quality lines.



Good choice of words, Laurie!


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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We should start a Snobbery Club




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Marj ~ From one "mop" to another, thank you









You're right. Not everyone will listen. Even when they don't, at least we tried to make a difference. That's all we can do. And I, for one, sleep a little better knowing we did all we could.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Great Post. I just wanted to add that everyone needs to make their own decisions and do your own research. Someone's top breeder could be a terrible breeder to another person - vice versa applies too.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Great Post. I just wanted to add that everyone needs to make their own decisions and do your own research. Someone's top breeder could be a terrible breeder to another person - vice versa applies too.[/B]


Oh that is sooo true! So far I've learned to take everything I hear with a grain of salt. With getting more involved with the breed, I take what has been said into slight consideration but it doesn't really influence my decisions. I am a firm believer that actions speak louder than words and well, some people's actions speak louder than others.







It's all very educational, LOL

Love your new siggie, btw


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## Elly B. (Oct 27, 2006)

Thanks for the coherent thoughts!

Something to consider, however, is that many newbies (like myself!) didn't stumble across these forums until AFTER they had already bought their puppy and were looking for ways to care for him/her better.

While that’s certainly not always the case, I think that caring for our malt falls under the category of ‘the best we knew at the time’. If I had it to do again, I would probably have spent a little more on my puppy and bought one with better bloodlines from a more established breeder. But I don’t regret getting Nick from an amateur breeder. (I don’t really lump her in with the normal BYB. She seems to know a lot and genuinely care about the breed even if she doesn’t show her dogs.) I probably got very lucky to get Nick like I did. I can’t think of _one thing _ I’d rather were different about him.

The best you can hope for when giving advice is to be listened to. If someone hears and weighs your advice and then chooses to go against it, then it’s their decision and their consequences if they are wrong. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT anyone ignored your advice just out of spite. People who are going to waste your breath generally don’t bother wasting theirs asking for advice. I think odds are good that those people heard, considered, and chose differently because they thought that was best.

I think very few people who care enough about their dog to come hunting for a forum on how to care for him/her would deliberately flout the advice of more experienced people for the sheer sake of convenience. I think each time, they thought they were doing the best thing for their malt. It might not always _be_ the best thing. Heck, my parents made bad decisions raising me, and I always knew they were doing the best they knew at the time, and could never resent it - and a maltese puppy is a lot more loving/forgiving than I am.

I understand that it’s frustrating to be right, to know you are right, and for people to need to learn those lessons on their own, those same lessons you’ve learned. But it’s a part of living to make mistakes. Even the worst mistake in buying a dog still brings you a little friend.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I've been thinking about this advice giving thing when people come on here and post. Someone I know commented about a pup she was considering and how she posted a picture to another forum. Everyone told her how cute it was. In reality, it wasn't what she expected it to be. We do this to everyone who posts pictures. Heck, all Maltese are cute, but is that really what some of the people want to hear. Just a few weeks ago this happened on here, yet private PM's were going around about the flaws members saw. The pup looked more ike a Bichon, but nothing was said openly.
Say a person is new to the breed, and they are searching for a Maltese who is in standard and one they can keep in coat. Now, they go out to Kennel X and find this Maltese who at eight weeks is four pounds, has a curly coat, and a big nose/face. They come on the site and post a picture, and we, as list members being nice, and in love with maltese tell them how cute the pup is. They purchase said pup, then six months later, they have a ten pound dog that doesn't look much like a maltese at all. Being new to the breed, they thought by our praise that they were doing the right thing. They love their pup, but it isn't what they expected. But, because we said it was cute, they made the purchase.
I'm inclined to start asking the poster what their expectations are in a maltese (other than sound health and temperament). If they say they are looking for one that is say, five to six pounds, refined facial features, good body, and nice silky coat, then shouldn't we point out that the pup they ask our advice on or share with us may not meet those standards? My thinking is that we wouldn't be doing it to be critical, but to share our knowledge with them to help in the decision making.


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

Wow! You did a wonderful job expressing some aspects that come up around here.
I must admit that I too initially bought a puppy (Frosty) from a pet store. I didn't know better and where I grew up that was just the way it was. After bringing Frosty into my life, I realize (at least up to this point) that I am VERY lucky that Frosty is healthy. We have had no problems out of her at all.
Now, knowing the things that I have since learned, Manning did come from a reputable breeder. I don't think I love one more than the other. I just made a decision that I didn't want to be a supporter to the animal cruelty that often accompanies the pet store/byb/puppymillers.
There are always going to be people who come and ask for advice who already know the "truth" but are hoping to some way "get around it." And until people stick around and realzie how much we all care for "the breed" it doesn't matter what or how advice is given.
One thing that I find aggravating is when people ask me why I don't breed my two malts. I always answer politely, but I do answer honestly. I always tell them that I am not a breeder and have no desire to be. Initially I thought about it, then I learned how dangerous the birthing process can be for our little babies. I upset my husband by having Frosty spayed. But I did what was best for Frosty, not me. I had Manning neutered, also because I wanted what was best for him, not me. Breeding (at least for me) will be left to those who have made a committment to learning/being mentored. JMO


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> The best you can hope for when giving advice is to be listened to. If someone hears and weighs your advice and then chooses to go against it, then it’s their decision and their consequences if they are wrong.[/B]


I believe this thread was focusing on those who have not purchased a pup yet.

The consequences of supporting puppy mills, BYB's, and petstores comes back on all of us. The financial burden and heartache is something we all end up dealing with, not to mention the little ones in the mills.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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That is so true, but there are some people who make the purchase and when the dog gets too big or doesn't look like the breed, they put it in rescue. My thinking is that people like this don't need a dog at all, but in reality, they do exist.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I've been thinking about this advice giving thing when people come on here and post. Someone I know commented about a pup she was considering and how she posted a picture to another forum. Everyone told her how cute it was. In reality, it wasn't what she expected it to be. We do this to everyone who posts pictures. Heck, all Maltese are cute, but is that really what some of the people want to hear. Just a few weeks ago this happened on here, yet private PM's were going around about the flaws members saw. The pup looked more ike a Bichon, but nothing was said openly.
> Say a person is new to the breed, and they are searching for a Maltese who is in standard and one they can keep in coat. Now, they go out to Kennel X and find this Maltese who at eight weeks is four pounds, has a curly coat, and a big nose/face. They come on the site and post a picture, and we, as list members being nice, and in love with maltese tell them how cute the pup is. They purchase said pup, then six months later, they have a ten pound dog that doesn't look much like a maltese at all. Being new to the breed, they thought by our praise that they were doing the right thing. They love their pup, but it isn't what they expected. But, because we said it was cute, they made the purchase.
> I'm inclined to start asking the poster what their expectations are in a maltese (other than sound health and temperament). If they say they are looking for one that is say, five to six pounds, refined facial features, good body, and nice silky coat, then shouldn't we point out that the pup they ask our advice on or share with us may not meet those standards? My thinking is that we wouldn't be doing it to be critical, but to share our knowledge with them to help in the decision making.[/B]


I totally agree with you, Faye. Unfortunately, oftentimes, the pup has already been purchased and they are just showing him/her to us. Some people are extra sensitive and because of that they might be embarrassed that they made a bad decision for all to see. So, they then turn on those who are trying to help them.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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Yep, this happened to me a few years ago. A couple surrendered two 6-month-old Maltipoos. They thought they were Maltese. Well as they grew, they started looking more like poodles, and rather big. Guess who had to flip the bill for the spay/neuter. That's right, RESCUE did. These two ended up in a loving/caring home, but the BYB is still in business selling mixes as purebreds.


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## Maltese_NH (Jul 23, 2006)

> I've been thinking about this advice giving thing when people come on here and post. Someone I know commented about a pup she was considering and how she posted a picture to another forum. Everyone told her how cute it was. In reality, it wasn't what she expected it to be. We do this to everyone who posts pictures. Heck, all Maltese are cute, but is that really what some of the people want to hear. Just a few weeks ago this happened on here, yet private PM's were going around about the flaws members saw. The pup looked more ike a Bichon, but nothing was said openly.
> Say a person is new to the breed, and they are searching for a Maltese who is in standard and one they can keep in coat. Now, they go out to Kennel X and find this Maltese who at eight weeks is four pounds, has a curly coat, and a big nose/face. They come on the site and post a picture, and we, as list members being nice, and in love with maltese tell them how cute the pup is. They purchase said pup, then six months later, they have a ten pound dog that doesn't look much like a maltese at all. Being new to the breed, they thought by our praise that they were doing the right thing. They love their pup, but it isn't what they expected. But, because we said it was cute, they made the purchase.
> I'm inclined to start asking the poster what their expectations are in a maltese (other than sound health and temperament). If they say they are looking for one that is say, five to six pounds, refined facial features, good body, and nice silky coat, then shouldn't we point out that the pup they ask our advice on or share with us may not meet those standards? My thinking is that we wouldn't be doing it to be critical, but to share our knowledge with them to help in the decision making.[/B]


Thanks Faye.... I got Haylee a few months back and I was so happy when everyone on here told me how beautiful she was. Then I watched the posts and everyone responded the same way to all the puppies pictures. Some pictures I've seen I haven't said anthing in a post but thought to myself....that's a Maltese???? But if you say otherwise isn't it like saying..."you have an ugly baby!!!" People on here tend to get very defensive....it's a difficult subject


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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I think, if they haven't purchased the pup yet, it's alright to say "he's so ugly, he's cute". I would much rather posters be honest "before" I actually bought the pup. I'm not that sensitive though. Heck, my son told me Joplin was ugly







I just told him she takes after him


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> Oh that is sooo true! So far I've learned to take everything I hear with a grain of salt.[/B]


well, i *do* have a "poorly bred" maltese that i just so happen to be completely in love w.......... ok, on the verge of being obsessed wi.... oh geez, who are we kidding here, i *am* totally obsessed with him.









not everyone is so lucky to have a completely healthy "poorly bred" malt. unfortunately, i am not one of the lucky ones. of course, if i knew then what i know now, i wouldn't even have considered buying from the person i did. i try to educate people on puppymills and more so the typical backyard breeder that most people have no idea about (like i didn't when i bought massimo). 

the advice given here should be taken pretty seriously. there are many veteran maltese owners who know exactly what they are talking about... in my case, i think the advice i offer should be taken with a grain of rock salt the size of mt. everest!







no one should have to go through what massimo and i go through. irresponsible breeders really should be responsible for the litters they produce. every time massimo goes through and episode, i really just want to throttle the "breeder" and make her witness what i go through..... just once! 

massimo isn't the only one of his litter with health issues. his sister has luxating patellas, his brother has some sort of neurological/aggression problem and has been on different meds including prozac! from what i've heard, ALL of the pups from HIS litter have problems....yet she went ahead and bred her dogs again!!! so that means there were MORE people taking on the responsibility of poorly bred dogs that MAY have been a ticking time bomb! i talked to her about massimo and spoke to her about fixing her dogs. she finally took my advice...but, i found out, only AFTER someone tried to sue her for medical bills!! 

i know...i sound irate and off the wall... i'm irrational because i have a sick dog.....not every byb bred dog has problems.... 

BUT!!! how do you know you're not gonna end up with something like massimo....or something even worse?
you don't want to risk it......seriously.....take it from me. 

ok....since i've just came across this post, and i've written this out of the heat of the moment...i'll probably be embarrassed when i read back and i'l end up deleting this AFTER i've made a fool of myself........


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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Very well said























I've quoted it so you can't delete it ~LOL

Kisses to our precious little Massimo


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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I was doing a little snooping last week regarding a breeder. The prospective owner was told one thing, and I was trying to see how true it was. Well, when I started asking about the parents of her dogs, I found that she didn't even know a thing about where they came from, other than the city they were purchased in. She knew nothing about Maltese standard, and when I asked about health issues, her reply was "what is that". When I suggested she might be sued if a dog was later found to have health problems, she suggested I should probably buy from a pet store, as she just loved her dogs and that is why she bred them, but she didn't want to be sued.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

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thank you.












> I was doing a little snooping last week regarding a breeder. The prospective owner was told one thing, and I was trying to see how true it was. Well, when I started asking about the parents of her dogs, I found that she didn't even know a thing about where they came from, other than the city they were purchased in. She knew nothing about Maltese standard, and when I asked about health issues, her reply was "what is that". When I suggested she might be sued if a dog was later found to have health problems, she suggested I should probably buy from a pet store, as she just loved her dogs and that is why she bred them, but she didn't want to be sued.[/B]


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Carrie and Faye, your posts were great and so informative. 

Some breeders seem to think that if you love them and they are raised "underfoot" then that's all that counts. They just don't have an understanding of the health issues at all. And buyers often don't care either... they seem to care in the short term about the price at the moment... letting the low price color their rational thinking about what might happen in the long term.


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## Lil Boo Boo (Jul 22, 2006)

Oh how I wanted to stay off this thread...but I just couldnt.







Such great advice from so many "snoby" breeders and maltese lovers...I want to be in the club too! Not breeding...just in the snoby club







Ok lets see, I know Small Fry is an ugly duckling... its ok if someone says it,








Second I think that some come on here that are from limited incomes and are hoping to find a malt for say a couple houndred bucks, they are not looking to pay $$$$$. How is that saying Champane taste on a beer pocket book? Most do not care about the breed, they just like how cute they look. They dont think about the health problem the tiny ones could have ( I hate it when people come on here looking for a malt under 5lbs!) or the cost of grooming, or the long months of endless potty training, they see Sassy! With her beatiful coat, and big beatiful eyes...they dont see the endless hours or money it takes to keep them looking that way.
The main reason I didnt say whom i was getting Dolly or Ally from is because I dont want to be responsiable for a bad experience someone may have. No breeder is perfect...they have all made mistakes...or will at some time. We all do, we are human. Im not saying that there is something wrong with Dolly but later who knows there could be, and I got her from a very good breeder imo. But that is just it MO, someone elses could be diffrent and thats ok. I think that before someone comes here and asks for recomendations on where to get a puppy they should ask themselves how much they are willing to pay. Im a firm beliver in you get what you pay for. If its a name brand suit sold at a discount store its probbably got a few stiches missing but you'll notice it in the end when the whole thing comes unraveled. 
Higher price dosnt always meen quality though and you really have to do your homework if what your looking for is quality, if your just looking for a pet and it dosnt matter if her ears stand up or her legs are crooked then go for a rescue, they are usually priced reasonably low. If your turned down by the rescue then instead of getting angry at the rescue you should look at your situation and really decide if a maltese is right for you, they really are an exceptional breed that take alot of your time, try your patients, expect, and deserve the best. If you cant give them those things and are just looking for a small dog for your kid to play with might I suggest a stuffed animal like fur real pets?


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

I have always gotten my dogs from shelters. In the beginning it was monetary. When I decided I wanted a puppy, (that was after saying I would never get another dog after the kids and the last dog left home),
I contacted all of the local shelters. No one had a small dog for adoption. I was ready to get a pup then - (I never did have much patience) so I went to the newspaper. I saw a ads for a number of small dogs. One was a Maltese. I went to see it, and of course fell in love. I had never given much thought to prue bred dogs. I didn't see the need to spend a lot of money on a fancy dog. Actually I thought muts were supposed to be healther. Boy, have I learned a lot. I was extremely lucky. Bogie is a wonderful companion. He came from a backyard breeder who had his parents, and told me they were registered, but I have no idea if that was true or not. The breeder asked me no questions except to ask for cash only. She had no idea what kind of home Bogie was going to. He was 8 weeks old.

Boy, have I learned a lot. After getting Bogie I started doing research and joined several Maltese forums.
Would I buy another puppy like I did Bogie? Absolutely not. I couldn't have gotten a better dog for me, but that was a very fortunate accident. I wish I had asked questions before I commited to years of pet ownership. Those of you who are knowegable Matlese people, please answer questions honestly. I certainly appreciate all of the knowledge I have gained. Anyone who asks questions and doesn't like the answers should'nt ask to begin with.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

This thread has really been interesting......all the comments have been really respectful of each others feelings.

I kind of agree with Faye that we probably ought to be honest with people who come and ask our opinions BEFORE they buy their pup. I do feel like people sometimes ask for opinions and then get defensive when the suggestions aren't what they wanted to hear. Once the pup is in their home, though, I don't see how it is very helpful to point out flaws. However, most of us seem to get a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) puppy so education can still be helpful for that next maltese. 

I am firmly in favor of buying a puppy from the best breeder that you can afford, understanding that we all have different comfort levels on price. I think it is fair to point out that sometimes people do all the right things - buy their pup from a reputable show breeder, spend a lot of money - and the maltese may still not live a long and healthy life. This isn't the fault of anybody - not the breeder, not the vet, not the owner. Sometimes stuff just happens....


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I agree Ms Magnolia. Great thoughtful thread. I only found it tonight. I am one of those that did my research and learning about the breed after purchasing my Frosty. He is my first and only Malt,







and it's been almost 15 years, so I've had time to learn a lot, but it's all hind-sight (and never enough). That's the way most of us got our start with the breed.



So although I agree with Faye that if it is a pic of a pup 'before the purchase' we should be more honest or not lay on the sugar, I'm afraid it is rare that we see a _before_ picture. Personally I just don't comment if I think it is really an ugly poor thing. I am sometimes shocked at the pictures and would love to ask what is the "deal" with this poor puppy! Some of those turn out O.K. after they mature a bit, some turn out looking like something mixed with a malt or undersized and ill looking. (I'd rather see a 10 pounder any day than a pinched face ill looking so called "tea cup"). (personal taste)











Anyway, good job all of you.







We really do try to help those that ask the questions, and it would be so wonderful if there were only honest well educated (on breeding and health) breeders. No mills, no ill _conceived _(







pun intended) BYB'ers, no _'just in it for the money' "_breeders". Then it would be so much easier to answer questions about finding a puppy wouldn't it?







No matter how we wish, it ain't goin' a happen!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Everyone has said and given some really good advice. I've actually lost sales because I am more critical of my dogs than anyone. When I have someone evaluate a dog for me, I want to know the truth. I had Tammy look at a dog for me that I didn't think was finishable. Her advise was to get him in full coat and he would finish quickly. He would have but someone needed him. So, he went to live in Oklahoma. 
We shouldn't always be thinking what is wrong with our dogs. Think about the good things too. Breeders I think should be asking what the potentional new owner is looking for in a Maltese. Go through it with them. Sometimes they have no idea of what you are talking about. 
One of my first "Maltese" ended up being a Bichon/Maltese cross. I asked her all the right questions. Can it be shown? What type of head it had on and on. The problem is a bichon at 8 weeks old looks just like a Maltese at 8 weeks old. But at 4 months old there was a big difference in her. Her pedigree when I finally got it, had Sire: Snow Ball I Dam: Snowflake. 
The interesting problem was I had a mentor that told me it was a great dog. 

You guys are giving some really good advice. Hope people listen to you and follow their instincts and not do the "I have to have it right now thing." Because a puppy is like taking on a new baby.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

"Because a puppy is like taking on a new baby." 



Exactly!


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## Carla (Aug 30, 2005)

I love this thread! This is one of the most thought provoking, considerate, and respectful threads I have read in a long time. I applaud everyone that has contributed to this thread.

I have always adopted my dogs. I knew that I might be taking on huge medical problems and who knows what kind of behaviors they might have. Fortunately all of them have been healthy and had only minor behavior problems. 

Shotzi is my first Maltese and I knew very little about this breed. Coming to a forum like this as a novice Malt owner has been an education for me. One that I'm grateful for. If members of this forum sugar coated all their posts, I would not have learned about byb, puppymills, and poorly bred pups.

IMO I think we do a great disservice to not inform posters. However I think we should be careful about our tone and try to make the post as congenial as possible. While we can't be responsible for every person's reaction we can be responsible for our own.

Carla & Shotzi


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> One of my first "Maltese" ended up being a Bichon/Maltese cross. I asked her all the right questions. Can it be shown? What type of head it had on and on. The problem is a bichon at 8 weeks old looks just like a Maltese at 8 weeks old. But at 4 months old there was a big difference in her. Her pedigree when I finally got it, had Sire: Snow Ball I Dam: Snowflake.
> The interesting problem was I had a mentor that told me it was a great dog.
> 
> You guys are giving some really good advice. Hope people listen to you and follow their instincts and not do the "I have to have it right now thing." Because a puppy is like taking on a new baby.[/B]


Tina, you bring up such a good point, one that can't be stressed enough. Sometimes a "bargain" Maltese isn't really a purebred Maltese at all. Sure, it has some sort of papers that say it is. The parents may even look purebred, but if their background is from a pet shop or BYB, you won't know what they have in their genetic makeup.

To the first time Maltese buyer, it's pretty hard to tell the difference:

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/maltesesize.htm

It's been my experience over the years belonging to many of these forums that my warnings of the potential for mulitple health issues and telling Lady's story often fall on deaf ears. I think a lot of puppy shoppers simply don't think it can happen to them. I find what people do care about, however, is getting a Maltese that looks like a Maltese. Afterall, if you fall in love with the breed and expect to have a 5 pound dog with a silky coat you can carry in a designer bag, it's pretty shocking when that cute puppy grows up to weigh 12 pounds and have a long nose and curly coat!

That's why it's so important to resist the "I have to have it right now" mentality as Tina says. Do your research and find the best breeder possible, even if you have to wait and save more money. In my opinion, the "bargain" shoppers" are the ones that most need to invest in a well bred bred puppy as they are the ones who can probably least afford the vet bills that can come with a poorly bred puppy.

I think the old adage "marry in haste, repent in leisure" applies to puppy shopping, too.


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## Deanna (Jan 14, 2005)

This is a wonderful thread. It's nice to see everyone being so rationale and considerate.

Wilson is a rescue. It took me a year to find a Malt rescue- he has zero health problems, all our issues are because he was neglected and mistreated. I have no idea where he came from -- other than "some place up north". I am lucky. 

When I decided I wanted a 2nd dog, I didn't have the energy to take on another rescue. I love Wilson with all my heart, but his emotional issues are draining (although he has gotten so much better over this last year!). A very dear friend of mine has a sister who would be considered a "hobby breeder" she breeds Papillons and Poms. I was nervous as all get out. I went to meet the breeder. All the dogs live in her house, they are her pets. She breeds a female (only if she is over 5 lbs and not until she is at least 2.5 yrs old) twice and then adopts them out, the males are her "forever" pets, and she never breeds more than 2 females at any one time. All of her dogs had been checked for genetic illnesses. I called some of the top Pap show breeders in Canada, and most of them had not done _any_ genetic testing!!







I was told time and time again "my pups are all fine.". So this "hobby" breeder had done more than the show breeders. 

My friend's sister _asked_ me to adopt Molly, she said Molly was so tiny and not likely to get above 3 lbs (all her litter mates were much bigger she is just a tiny girl)- and she didn't want her going to someone she didn't know. She wanted me to have Molly because she knew I am one of _those_ kind of dog moms, and that we know how to care for a small dog. She wanted me to have Molly so bad she gave her to me for less than half of what she normally charges for her dogs. 

When I called my vet to make an appointment for Molly right after we got her, my vet called me back to ask me where I had gotten Molly from. My vet was so nervous because she said in all her years in Edmonton she had not seen one healthy Pap- all of them had either liver shunt, luxating patella, etc etc or a combination of all. I told her the breeder's name- and let my vet know that the breeder is a few hours outside of town. My vet had not heard of her but encouraged me to get copies of the tests the breeder had done and the breeder's vet's name. So I did- the breeder was more than happy to give me that information. When I took Molly to see the vet and the tests were completed my vet was shocked at how healthy Molly is. She said she had never seen a Pap that was so healthy, and strong- especially one that is so tiny. 

Molly is perfectly within standard (3-6 lbs is standard, color is perfect -although she doesn't have the desired split face she was the only one in the litter that didn't have it), she was well cared for and socialized, she stayed with the breeder until she was 5 months old because she was so small and the breeder was looking for the best home for her, and she has the exact described/desired temperment of a Pap. 

I am torn on the whole hobby breeder thing. I have seen so many people get the healthiest within standard dogs from a hobby breeder, and watched so many of my friends (online and in real life) suffer through the heartache of having a sick dog, a sick dog that came from a "top breeder".


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## Littlemans Mom (Apr 6, 2005)

Wow, I really thought long and hard before I started this post, mainly because I wasn't sure if it would be taken in the way I honestly intended it too. Sometimes it is hard to get thoughts into words the way you ( or in this case me ) want to. I want to thank each and every one who has taken the time to respond , the great advice and the tone in which this thread has taken







You guys are great


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## Jacki (Jul 13, 2006)

> I think the old adage "marry in haste, repent in leisure" applies to puppy shopping, too.[/B]


That is so well said, Marj -- and I have recently been struggling with how to say this to some friends of ours. There are 2 couples we hang out with and although I've known them casually for a while, we're only now just really "getting to know" them, so I don't want to overstep my place and say something that could be offensive. One of the couples has 2 dogs -- a Malt from a byb and a Lhasa/Poodle mix from what looks like (based on its website) a small puppy mill. These are very sweet little dogs who are well loved and well behaved, but I find it hard to bite my tongue when the woman says things like "lhasapoo".









The other couple recently had their "labra-doodle" puppy put to sleep because of severe aggression and behavioral problems they just couldn't handle. He was not even a year old







My dilemma is that when they talk about potentially getting another dog, or ask us questions about the route we are taking in our "Sprout search", I want to gently but honestly share information with them. I know they are still shaken up by what happened with their dog. Sometimes I have a tendency to be "too honest" and just share what is on my mind, and I try to do so very considerately. 

I'm getting used to people giving me the sideways eye when they ask "where are you getting your puppy from" and I tell them the truth -- they just don't see why it's important to do the research and find a responsible and reputable breeder. Many people still believe that as long as a dog doesn't come from a pet store, it's fine. And I think some of the belief is driven by the $$$ factor. 

To me, it just seems like anyone looking for a pet should do as much research and buy from someone who a) is responsible/reputable/does genetic testing/shows their dogs/etc, and







the prospective buyer feels comfortable with. And if someone comes on this site honestly looking for advice, they will hear what we are saying, and realize that they need to give due diligence to the process of getting a pup. 

If they are just looking to hear "what they want to hear" -- as in "yeah, it's cool to go to your local byb, that's great" -- their mind may already be made up and what we say may not make an impact. I find that most people I talk to who genuinely care about animals are at least somewhat receptive to learning!!









Okay ... I'll stop now!!!


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I've been thinking about this thread, as well as the one where the poll was taken on where your next dog would come from.


It seems that some people have problems with the idea of a show breeder or dogs with champions in their pedigree. I'm sure that no one would have a problem if we said that it would be best to buy a puppy from someone whose ancestors had a history. And that is what those of us to do adhere to this type breeding have. Because the parents and grandparents do have an identity in the Maltese world, we are better able to work with producing dogs within the standard, as well as have knowledge of health and temperament. This is far different from a byb.


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## Jacki (Jul 13, 2006)

> I've been thinking about this thread, as well as the one where the poll was taken on where your next dog would come from.
> 
> 
> It seems that some people have problems with the idea of a show breeder or dogs with champions in their pedigree. I'm sure that no one would have a problem if we said that it would be best to buy a puppy from someone whose ancestors had a history. And that is what those of us to do adhere to this type breeding have. Because the parents and grandparents do have an identity in the Maltese world, we are better able to work with producing dogs within the standard, as well as have knowledge of health and temperament. This is far different from a byb.[/B]


I wonder if people feel like they are being "snobby" or something by going to show breeders or wanting a dog with champions in its pedigree? I had a hard time with that at first ... "are people going to think I'm a snob if I buy from a show breeder?" Sometimes people are so concerned with not being/seeming "snobby" that they will resist going for high-quality things (not just dogs ... I've noticed this in a lot of things) so people don't think badly of them.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=285588
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

What a wonderful subject. Wow, I love it when all these wise, level-headed folks speak up!











I wish my daughter and her husband (who are 'otherwise' the smartest people I know) would read and understand this subject. They got a Labra-doodle from a "breeder". They even had to wait many months and make a huge non-refundable deposit for this pup. He is huge at almost 1 year, fuzzy faced and cute, but totally nuts. They had a Golden before who was well mannered and trained. They can't do anything with this dog. He has to be kenneled in the house because he "eats" everything! Someone left a towl on the kitchen counter and in a flash--he swallowed it! Yes, a whole towel. He swallows socks or anything he can get to. He is fed very well, that's not the problem. They can't leave anything--food, toys, clothes (he even jumped on the bed while she was folding laundry and swallowed clothes!) where he can reach them--and he is tall!







My daughter is at her wit's end on what to do. They have tried several training ideas and as he gets older he is getting worse. She is like me and feels like he is a family member now, and doesn't want to just get 'rid' of him.







But he is driving her crazy.











For me, it is just more proof that mixed breeds aren't getting the 'best of both breeds'!







I know there is no guarantee any dog will have the personality you want, but knowing the history of the family tree puts my mind at least 90% at ease.







......and I haven't even mentioned the health issue, which is at least as important, or more important, than behavior.


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## dolcevita (Aug 3, 2005)

> I wonder if people feel like they are being "snobby" or something by going to show breeders or wanting a dog with champions in its pedigree?[/B]


I think that's a good question. I do think that a lot of people have that impression--especially when there are movies out there like "Best in Show" that makes people who are into show dogs seem crazy or neurotic. Or they think of some Park Avenue socialite who takes her purse dog with her everywhere. It's based on ignorance about breeding methods and what a pedigree really means. And yes, there are plenty of people who feel superior about having a dog with champions in it's pedigree. But I think that's why we have to keep educating people, and when they ask questions, we have to be honest with them, without being critical. There are always going to be people who take it the wrong way, but I still think it's important to tell the truth, while still being respectful.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=286577
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Sounds like that dog suffers from Pica behaviour. Here's a site that might help. There are others.

Pica Behaviour in the Adult Dog


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Thanks Brit. I sent that link and some others on Pica in canines to my daughter.


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## Villa Marsesca (Feb 27, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=286590
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What a wonderful subject. Wow, I love it when all these wise, level-headed folks speak up!











I wish my daughter and her husband (who are 'otherwise' the smartest people I know) would read and understand this subject. They got a Labra-doodle from a "breeder". They even had to wait many months and make a huge non-refundable deposit for this pup. He is huge at almost 1 year, fuzzy faced and cute, but totally nuts. They had a Golden before who was well mannered and trained. They can't do anything with this dog. He has to be kenneled in the house because he "eats" everything! Someone left a towl on the kitchen counter and in a flash--he swallowed it! Yes, a whole towel. He swallows socks or anything he can get to. He is fed very well, that's not the problem. They can't leave anything--food, toys, clothes (he even jumped on the bed while she was folding laundry and swallowed clothes!) where he can reach them--and he is tall!







My daughter is at her wit's end on what to do. They have tried several training ideas and as he gets older he is getting worse. She is like me and feels like he is a family member now, and doesn't want to just get 'rid' of him.







But he is driving her crazy.











For me, it is just more proof that mixed breeds aren't getting the 'best of both breeds'!







I know there is no guarantee any dog will have the personality you want, but knowing the history of the family tree puts my mind at least 90% at ease.







......and I haven't even mentioned the health issue, which is at least as important, or more important, than behavior.









[/B][/QUOTE] 



Sounds like that dog suffers from Pica behaviour. Here's a site that might help. There are others.

Pica Behaviour in the Adult Dog
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for a great link, I will share this with others too.

Cheers, Nedra


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## felicity (Jun 19, 2006)

wow,

that was the most considerate post i have read in a while and also very helpful.

i have also learned a lot since being here, i was a member before mishkin joined my family so i guess that helped me a bit too, i know it stopped me from buying an eight week old puppy from the newspaper.

as you all know, mishkin came from a small show breeder, i was worried that she wasn't a very well known breeder but put my trust in her because of who recomended me to her, this lady is a very well known breeder and was very fussy, she seemed to know a lot about the breed, their illnesses and about the maltese standard, so i decided to go with this breeder she recomended.

so far i have not been dissapointed, , mishkin has had no health problems yet and on his last checkup i was told he is very healthy.

i do think that any breeder can have puppies with problems but i think that it's safer to wait and buy a puppy from a reputable breeder because it just isn't worth the risk, the few who have healthy puppies from smaller breeders are usually very lucky.

as for photos, i do think people need to be told the truth if it's a puppy they are thinking of buying, it might hurt them but it will hurt the pup more if in four months they realise he/she is not what they wanted in a maltese afterall and send him to a shelter.

it's funny because i never thought maltese looked all groomed naturally but i know so many people that do, if only they new how much time it takes to keep them that way, a second after mishkin has been brushed he's rubbing his head and topknot all over the carpet until his face resembles a birds nest









i also have two friends over recently who seem to want a maltese, i gently had to tell them that one's in the paper can have serious health issues, they also have no idea how much work goes into the breed and seem to think it will be easy.


felicity and mishkin


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