# For training, did you use a harness or collar?



## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

Maggie is going to be taking the S.T.A.R. Puppy course for the next six weeks. She has had basic or what they call "Head Start" training already.
I'm trying a new place that teaches 5 or 6 different courses, as well as Agility & Relay, Manners, Tricks & Techniques, etc. 
Anyway, my question for those of you who have done training with your *Maltese is this: Did you use a harness or a collar?* At orientation last night, they had recommended that we use a collar but did say if the Vet has said not to because of trachea problems, it's fine. Well, my Vet hasn't specifically said that, but I'm very concerned of using collars as I had a Maltese that did develop a collapsed trachea. I do not know how she got it, but I just do not want to take any chances of causing any issues with Maggie. I have only used a harness on Maggie from day one and the other issue is her neck is so small, I haven't found one that would not slip off, other than using a cat collar, so I never purchased one. *What are your thoughts on harness or using collar for training purposes? Or what did you use for training?*
Oh and the last training she had done, I used a harness, but the instructor kept bugging me about how I should be using a collar. Don't know why, it was not like she was not doing well, she did better than most all of the puppies who had collars. So it was not hampering her trainability at all.


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## maggie's mommy (Mar 12, 2006)

If it were me, I would use the harness. Only on rare occassions have I hooked a leash to my Maggie's collar. I only use the collar for her I.D. tags. Good luck with the S.T.A.R. puppy classes.


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## Lou's Mom (Apr 8, 2014)

Mine are only leashed to a harness. The collar is for tags only. My vet did say she she only recommended harnesses for small dogs partly for the trachea issue and because they can easily slip out of collars. Most trainers think you have better control with a leash but I wouldn't chance it. Good luck with your test!


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

I agree, I would only use a harness. Good luck with your training!


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## LovelyLily (Mar 26, 2013)

Trisha, I have had concerns over the past year about this.

I am in ongoing training with my one-year old Lily with a trainer who sounds similar to yours (has agility, therapy dog training, rally, etc.). She did the S.T.A.R. training there, and since then has been in ongoing competition obedience and training for the Canine Good Citizen test. 

I went through the S.T.A.R. program without it being mentioned as an issue, but since then with the ongoing training several times the trainer has mentioned it would be better if I had the collar instead of the harness. 

When I told her how the vet said she should not have a collar on due to the risk of trachea damage, the trainer said the dog will learn to not do what will hurt him/her. I definitely do not buy into that. If that was the case we wouldn't have the problem of small dogs damaging their necks. She acts like I am babying Lily, or so I perceive it, but I rather be safe than sorry. 

One particular thing I remember was when one week she stressed it was imperative to have a collar for the upcoming week's session to learn sitting with resistance--the dog is in a sit and gentle resistance is placed on the collar pulling a bit upward and the objective is that the dog remains sitting through this until released. I put a collar on her for that for part of that class but felt very nervous about it. Since then I don't bring a collar to class so I am not in the position of feeling pressured to put one on her. I know she also mentioned it would be better for training to heel if she had a collar, but I kept with the harness.

I think safety first is the main issue, and though I think this trainer is generally pretty great I don't think she is really up on the delicacy of toy breeds. She had always had large size dogs. 

Linda


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Trisha, I have changed trainers in the past over this issue. Personally I would not use a collar anyway but to me a trainer insisting we do that shows they want to use forceful methods for dog training. For example, tugging, pulling, 'correcting' etc. are all techniques that you can only do with a collar. I don't agree with those and looked for another trainer. The one we went to eventually asked ALL owners to switch to a harness (even for big dogs). I know that's not possible for everyone, especially if you like your current trainer. I would encourage you to fight the collar rule and keep using your harness. Also be aware if you are asked to use force to train your dog. 

Training should be fun for you and the dog. Or what's the point, right?


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

LovelyLily said:


> Trisha, I have had concerns over the past year about this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What was the objective of teaching that sit?


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

*Thank you everyone for your posts & comments to my question!*

This place that I am going to is a large training facility for dogs with 6 dog trainers. They are also qualified/certified for the AKC S.T.A.R. & Good Canine Citizen training & listed on the AKC site. They do nothing else but dog training. I have also talked to other people that have used their training and they were pleased and are still active with them in advanced training. So I have the confidence that they want the best for all dogs & do make it fun, especially after going to the orientation last night and seeing the demonstrations they provided using client's dogs. 
*Linda *~ I do agree with you too, I think sometimes they either don't know or realize the seriousness of the CT issue with smaller toy dogs. As you said, seems most of the trainers that had their dogs there, were medium to larger breeds.
Now, when I signed in last night, they did mention that there are lots of Maltese registered for these classes, (they do two S.T.A.R. & CGC classes back to back with 10 dogs in each class). So it will be interesting to see what the other Maltese owners use for their dogs. I do plan to stick with the harness.

*Thanks again too for all the "good luck" wishes! It should be fun!*


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## justagirltv (Jun 3, 2014)

LovelyLily said:


> Trisha, I have had concerns over the past year about this.
> 
> I am in ongoing training with my one-year old Lily with a trainer who sounds similar to yours (has agility, therapy dog training, rally, etc.). She did the S.T.A.R. training there, and since then has been in ongoing competition obedience and training for the Canine Good Citizen test.
> 
> ...


Linda, I literally almost just shouted AMEN! That's how I felt about the trainer where I took Bentley for Puppy & Beginner Class. I felt like she didn't care much for Bentley or the Shih tzu in the class and there were times we were asked to "pop the collar" and "gentle use physical corrections" (which I refused) She treated the Shih tzu better once she convinced his owner to get a prong collar. The poor baby froze and was stoic and miserable. 

I'm by no means an expert but my opinion is that if he's going to wear a harness when I take him out then shouldn't he be trained in a harness? I also find that there's a lot less leash tangle when we use a harness. 

His new teacher is awesome! (Different training place) and we "connect" better. He has dogs of all sizes and doesn't pick on the toy breeds. He doesn't mind harnesses. There's a chihuahua in the class and she wears a harness also.


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Trisha said:


> *Thank you everyone for your posts & comments to my question!*
> 
> This place that I am going to is a large training facility for dogs with 6 dog trainers. They are also qualified/certified for the AKC S.T.A.R. & Good Canine Citizen training & listed on the AKC site. They do nothing else but dog training. I have also talked to other people that have used their training and they were pleased and are still active with them in advanced training. So I have the confidence that they want the best for all dogs & do make it fun, especially after going to the orientation last night and seeing the demonstrations they provided using client's dogs.
> *Linda *~ I do agree with you too, I think sometimes they either don't know or realize the seriousness of the CT issue with smaller toy dogs. As you said, seems most of the trainers that had their dogs there, were medium to larger breeds.
> ...



I was in no way insinuating that this training facility isn't good or don't have the dog's best interest at heart. The fun comment was more about having a dog stay in a sit even putting pressure on collar. Sorry that wasn't clear from my post. 

Have fun and take some videos!


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

*Aastha *~ Oh no, I was not taking it that way at all! No worries, I just went into explaining that I'm comfortable with their training techniques & I'm sure that everything is done in the best interest of the dog & owner.
I've done training in the past with other dogs I have owned (a Sheltie, an Irish Setter & a Lab). But this is the first time to take formal training with a small toy dog. My Maltese before this one, I bought a book and taught her everything myself. But she was just so darn smart, it was easy & quick! This little girl seems to challenge me with a few things, so I need more help! lol
But I was not offended or didn't think you implied anything at all! I'm just always grateful for the different tips, advice & help I've received on here! I welcome all comments!
Now taking videos will be another learning process for me! lol I'm still trying to master pictures! But I'll keep you posted on her progress!

Thanks!!


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## Lou's Mom (Apr 8, 2014)

Trisha - I also quit going to a trainer who insisted on a collar and a quick jerk to correct Lou. It is a bit more of a challenge in a harness but I wasn't willing to risk it. And I figured if I could get him to do what I wanted/needed him to do in a harness, there was no harm and he would actually be better for it, since he wouldn't have the negative of being jerked around associated it training. I started watching videos and did it my self. Mine may not win any obedience awards but for the most part they are well behaved, love people and dogs, they come when called (unless squirrels are involved!) They do all the obedience commands and a couple of tricks as well. 
All that to say, stick to your guns, and prove you and your baby can do everything with just a harness - you may convert that trainers way of thinking!


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## Trisha (Aug 8, 2014)

*Thank you Donna!* Yes, I think she will do fine and she did with the first puppy class I took her to (with a different trainer). Although, each and every time I went to class, she would say "you really need to consider using a collar, especially if you are going to continue training her after this class." And it certainly wasn't based on her having any problems picking up the commands & responding, as she did very well at everything. Not to sound like bragging, but actually she was the best puppy in the class & learned quickly. She was not even that good of a trainer in my opinion anyway, so I had no intentions of using her again.

I don't think there will be an issue with this training facility, as I said in the first post, they did mention if the Vet says you should use a harness, no problem. Well, my Vet hasn't said that, never asked her, but I'm going with my gut as you said and safety for my pet first and foremost! I know there's a risk of injury so I'm not taking the chance. I don't think I would ever jerk her or tug at the collar very hard, but their little necks are so small, who knows what could happen.

I was curious or just wanted to ask others what they did or for their opinions!

Thanks again for your support & comments always!


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

I would NEVER use a collar for training on a toy breed dog. And I will be a bit more forceful here - if a trainer was telling me to "pop" the dog, I would find a new trainer. Current thinking in dog training techniques focus on positive reinforcement only, even for working and protection dogs such as police dogs. If you research Steve White, you will see that even protection and police dogs are being trained without the "pops."


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## LovelyLily (Mar 26, 2013)

Aastha, I am so sorry for not replying to your post to me earlier. I wasn't checking this for a bit and just saw it now.

You asked why my trainer was having Lily work on remaining in a sit when pressure was applied to the collar to make her get out of the sit. My understanding is that it is one of those things she is teaching the dogs for competition obedience--that they have to sit through distractions, sit through resistance, etc. 

My objective is positive socialization, fun, bonding, and if we learn some more things along the way all the better. She is reactive and skittish and I think the more positive diverse experiences I continue to give her the better.

Putting a collar on her and allowing the trainer to tug against it is not something that I approve of or will ever let happen again, and I feel like a coward for not being more assertive in the class when it was done. Pressure on a seven pound dog is different than pressure on a fifty pound's dog collar, even though it is supposedly "gentle" pressure, though I don't think it is something that should be done to either dog. I failed in being a proper advocate for her, feeling judged for being too protective.

Have a nice weekend, all!

Linda


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## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Linda, I am not sure I would've done anything differently, especially when Gustave was a puppy. It's hard when you're just starting out training and you tend to trust the trainer. We had an hour long session with a trainer who kept stomping her foot because Gustave wouldn't walk properly on leash. He was maybe 13 weeks old. At that point I just remember asking "is this going to work?" but after she left I had time to process it and realize her methods were only going to traumatize him and not help at all. 

I don't think pulling on the collar the way you described is traumatizing or anything, but I was just curious why they would teach that because I see no practical application of that skill. Even in rally obedience stuff there is no exercise like that. Usually when you pull a dog you want them to follow you. That's why I was wondering if they ever explained what the point was. Thanks for replying back <3


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## ROGERSMOM (Jul 16, 2016)

My Roger is 7 months and I want to take him to training/trick classes. The ones I've looked into require a collar and I refuse to put one on him. I was wondering if there are classes that allow a harness.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

Most training classes require a collar. I teach AKC Star puppy classes. Larger puppies are difficult to control in a harness. They just don't feel or ignore corrections. I have two Maltese that I have trained and competed with. With one a collar that worked fine. The other one, the larger of the two cannot tolerate a collar. He coughs and gags. I trained him in a harness. He did have to have a collar on to compete in obedience but most of his training was done with a harness. Some small dogs do ok in a collar and some don't. I would talk to the trainer and say you were advised not to start with a collar due to collapsing trachea. Many Maltese have an issue with this.

Hopefully, the class you go to has experience with toy dogs.


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