# Sticky  How to Determine if a Breeder is Ethical



## maggieh

I just got my August issue of Whole Dog Journal and there is an excellent article on how to select an ethical breeder. This article says all of the things many of us on SM have been advising for years about ethical breeders: A Field Guide to Ethical Breeders - Whole Dog Journal Article

In case you can't open the link, here are the key points. 
1. The breeder competes or shows the dogs.
2. The breeder has as many, or more, questions for you than you do for her. She’s nosy
3. A good breeder checks references.
4. The breeder is also very happy to provide references.
5. The breeder uses a sales contract that protects the puppy’s welfare, the breed’s welfare, your interests, and her interests – in about that order.
6. The breeder speaks more about her adult dogs, their accomplishments, backgrounds, qualities, and shortcomings, than about any puppies for sale, present or future.
7. Good breeders perform the appropriate health tests for the breed, share the results openly, provide documentation of those results, and can justify their decisions to breed each individual dog.
8. The breeder breeds one breed of dogs. Maybe two. 
Probably just one.
9. The breeder breeds only mature dogs, and each female is bred infrequently. (certainly no more than once a year.)
10. The breeder has litters infrequently, one at a time. You are likely to have to wait, possibly a considerable time, for a pup to be available to you.
11. You are encouraged, in some cases required, to visit the breeder’s home to pick up your puppy. (this is always where the puppies and their mother live, by the way.)
12. The chance that a breeder who is USDA-licensed is not a puppymiller is essentially nil.
13. If there is any indication that the sale of puppies is paying the mortgage, that the dogs are supporting the breeder, walk away.


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## Bailey&Me

Great list, Maggie - thanks for posting! 

I couldn't open the link so I'm only basing this comment on your list above without reading the full article - the only point I would question is the highlighted portion in the sentence below:

"10. The breeder has litters infrequently, *one at a time*. You are likely to have to wait, possibly a considerable time, for a pup to be available to you."

I think in the Maltese breed, it is fairly common (at least from my experience!) for reputable breeders to possibly have more than one litter at a time. If you speak to a reputable show Maltese breeder who has a couple of litters born around the same time, that is not cause for alarm in my opinion. I think because Maltese have such small litters, it is not impossible for breeders to care for and give attention to a couple of litters at the same time. I would imagine this would be more difficult with larger breeds that have huge litters!


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## maggieh

Bailey&Me said:


> Great list, Maggie - thanks for posting!
> 
> I couldn't open the link so I'm only basing this comment on your list above without reading the full article - the only point I would question is the highlighted portion in the sentence below:
> 
> "10. The breeder has litters infrequently, *one at a time*. You are likely to have to wait, possibly a considerable time, for a pup to be available to you."
> 
> I think in the Maltese breed, it is fairly common (at least from my experience!) for reputable breeders to possibly have more than one litter at a time. If you speak to a reputable show Maltese breeder who has a couple of litters born around the same time, that is not a cause for alarm in my opinion. I think because Maltese have such small litters, it is not impossible for breeders to care for and give attention to a couple of litters at the same time. I would imagine this would be more difficult with larger breeds that have huge litters!


You might try going to their home page and clicking on the August issue on the right hand side. Whole Dog Journal I don't know if you need to be a subscriber to see the article.

And I totally agree with your point - in the article, the point is that a breeder can't properly care for and socialize 20 - 30 puppies at any one time; with the small litters our Maltese have, you could have more than one litter and still only be caring for a few puppies. In other words, if it's a breeding factory, run!


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## Lacie's Mom

Maggie -- thanks for posting this. I think it might make a good sticky.


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## maggieh

Stuck!


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## CloudClan

This is a great list. I also was unable to read the whole article, but I love the summary points. You do have to be a subscriber and yet again I was tempted to go ahead and subscribe.  

I agree though with Nida's point. Sometimes a Maltese breeder might have more than one litter at a time. Girls do tend to come into heat around the same time (dormitory effect) and sometimes the best choice is to go ahead and breed both. Multiple Maltese litters still would not give you the same number of puppies you might find in a large breed dog's single litter. I have friends who raise Poms. They had not had a litter in two years, but ended up with two girls due on the same day. Between those two litters they had 3 puppies. They were hardly over-breeding. And the fact remained true that buying from ethical breeders such as these often requires patience. 

The other one that I think needs a bit of a comment is number 9. I agree that girls should be bred infrequently. I get very upset when I hear about a girl who has been bred every year of her life until she is 10 years old. Often a Maltese will have 3 or 4 litters over her lifetime. Most ethical breeders will let their girls rest from the whelping routine around age 6. But it is not always the case that they do not breed more than once in a year. There was once an old school of thought that you never bred a girl on back to back heats. But today there is some evidence that it may actually be healthier to breed back to back and then let her rest on the next. Honestly, I would look at how the breeders treat their girls and their dogs than focusing on hard and fast numbers which can require more nuance and explanation.


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## StevieB

CloudClan said:


> This is a great list. I also was unable to read the whole article, but I love the summary points. You do have to be a subscriber and yet again I was tempted to go ahead and subscribe.
> 
> I agree though with Nida's point. Sometimes a Maltese breeder might have more than one litter at a time. Girls do tend to come into heat around the same time (dormitory effect) and sometimes the best choice is to go ahead and breed both. Multiple Maltese litters still would not give you the same number of puppies you might find in a large breed dog's single litter. I have friends who raise Poms. They had not had a litter in two years, but ended up with two girls due on the same day. Between those two litters they had 3 puppies. They were hardly over-breeding. And the fact remained true that buying from ethical breeders such as these often requires patience.
> 
> The other one that I think needs a bit of a comment is number 9. I agree that girls should be bred infrequently. I get very upset when I hear about a girl who has been bred every year of her life until she is 10 years old. Often a Maltese will have 3 or 4 litters over her lifetime. Most ethical breeders will let their girls rest from the whelping routine around age 6. But it is not always the case that they do not breed more than once in a year. There was once an old school of thought that you never bred a girl on back to back heats. But today there is some evidence that it may actually be healthier to breed back to back and then let her rest on the next. Honestly, I would look at how the breeders treat their girls and their dogs than focusing on hard and fast numbers which can require more nuance and explanation.


I also agree on number 9. I was bred back to back and I'm just fine and so are the kids! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: But I've since been retired.


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## Bailey&Me

StevieB said:


> I also agree on number 9. I was bred back to back and I'm just fine and so are the kids! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: But I've since been retired.


:HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley: Celeta, I laughed out loud (VERY loudly) for about five minutes straight at that one! :HistericalSmiley:


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## hoaloha

StevieB said:


> I also agree on number 9. I was bred back to back and I'm just fine and so are the kids! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: But I've since been retired.


LOL!!!! :HistericalSmiley:


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## Tashulia25

Thank you so much , great article!!
*10. The breeder has litters infrequently, one at a time. You are likely to have to wait, possibly a considerable time, for a pup to be available to you.*
that was me, who had to wait :/ Both breeders required me to come there(6 hours speedy drive 1 way) , both start to talk to me after I told them the age of my children and both told me that they don't sell Maltese puppies to family where kids are younger than (one told 8 yo , and another 10yo)


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## mysugarbears

StevieB said:


> I also agree on number 9. I was bred back to back and I'm just fine and so are the kids! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: But I've since been retired.




:smrofl::smrofl: :smrofl: Good thing i swallowed my drink before i read your comment! :HistericalSmiley:


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## maggieh

StevieB said:


> I also agree on number 9. I was bred back to back and I'm just fine and so are the kids! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: But I've since been retired.


Love it!


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## cheekyradish

StevieB said:


> I also agree on number 9. I was bred back to back and I'm just fine and so are the kids! :HistericalSmiley: :HistericalSmiley: But I've since been retired.


HaHa!! Thanks for the chuckle!!


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## maddysmom

Thankyou for the great advice however can someone plz explain to me what I missed when I found my breeder? March of last year my Maltese (maddy) had died at the age of 17 which is when I tried to gather as much info about breeders as possible so when I found my breeder these are the questions I asked:
Do you only breed Maltese? ( Answer): yes
How many litters do you have? ( A): 1 right now and expecting another soon
Do you participate in shows? (A) yes..all the time
Champion lines? (A) oh yes!
Contract (A) yes
Support afterwards? (A) yes
References: gave me 3 people to call
Food seem healthy enough, house was clean...breeder seemed pleasant enough.
The day I went to her house to pick out my pup, she only had the 1 litter downstairs, this was a BIG 2 family house...asked all my questions again with the same replies.
However...the day I picked up Lacie at 12 wks she brought me upstairs where she had 7 play pens set up in dining room, all new litters, galley kitchen had another female and 3 males fenced off bcuz she was in heat and 8 males & 5 more females in the LR running around.
Besides the fact that I realize now this was just an indoor puppymill...what on earth cld I have done differently before I got to this point... what did I miss other than being way to TRUSTING!
And how cld I turn my back on my girl now bcuz she was so sick!


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## StevieB

maddysmom said:


> Thankyou for the great advice however can someone plz explain to me what I missed when I found my breeder? March of last year my Maltese (maddy) had died at the age of 17 which is when I tried to gather as much info about breeders as possible so when I found my breeder these are the questions I asked:
> Do you only breed Maltese? ( Answer): yes
> How many litters do you have? ( A): 1 right now and expecting another soon
> Do you participate in shows? (A) yes..all the time
> Champion lines? (A) oh yes!
> Contract (A) yes
> Support afterwards? (A) yes
> References: gave me 3 people to call
> Food seem healthy enough, house was clean...breeder seemed pleasant enough.
> The day I went to her house to pick out my pup, she only had the 1 litter downstairs, this was a BIG 2 family house...asked all my questions again with the same replies.
> However...the day I picked up Lacie at 12 wks she brought me upstairs where she had 7 play pens set up in dining room, all new litters, galley kitchen had another female and 3 males fenced off bcuz she was in heat and 8 males & 5 more females in the LR running around.
> Besides the fact that I realize now this was just an indoor puppymill...what on earth cld I have done differently before I got to this point... what did I miss other than being way to TRUSTING!
> And how cld I turn my back on my girl now bcuz she was so sick!


Yikes! I am so sorry, it does sound like you were duped. Did this breeder have a website? It is always recommended to go see the breeder's house in person unless you are absolutely sure who you are dealing with. Did you call the references? If so, you could have asked them if they had seen her facility and gotten a description. You could have asked to see the puppy's pedigree in advance. Do a basic Google search to see if you can find any info, reviews, show results. And lastly, it is too bad you found Spoiled Maltese after you got your pup b/c most likely you would have been steered in the right direction.

Is your baby sick? What is going on? Again, I'm so sorry. But do what you can to get your baby well. Get pet insurance ASAP! And help us spread the word about ethical breeders vs BYBs.


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## maggieh

When you ask a question and get a yes/no answer, dig deeper. For example:

How many litters do you have? ( A): 1 right now and expecting another soon
_I would then ask "How many litters have you had in the past 12 months? How many breeding pair? Sires? Dams?"_

Do you participate in shows? (A) yes..all the time
_Follow up with "When and where was the last show you were in? Where and when have you shown in the past 12 months? What were your results?"_

Champion lines? (A) oh yes!
_Then ask: "what lines? Show me the pedigrees of the sire and the dam."_

Contract (A) yes
_Ask to see a copy of the contract before making any commitment to see what it includes._

Support afterwards? (A) yes
_What type of support? How long?_

It's easy to stop asking questions when you get a yes/no answer but yes/no questions don't get you a lot of information. You need to dig deeper with open-ended questions to get at the whole story. I'm sorry this happened to you - hopefully this will help should there be a "next time."


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## SammieMom

maddysmom said:


> Thankyou for the great advice however can someone plz explain to me what I missed when I found my breeder? March of last year my Maltese (maddy) had died at the age of 17 which is when I tried to gather as much info about breeders as possible so when I found my breeder these are the questions I asked:
> Do you only breed Maltese? ( Answer): yes
> How many litters do you have? ( A): 1 right now and expecting another soon
> Do you participate in shows? (A) yes..all the time
> Champion lines? (A) oh yes!
> Contract (A) yes
> Support afterwards? (A) yes
> References: gave me 3 people to call
> Food seem healthy enough, house was clean...breeder seemed pleasant enough.
> The day I went to her house to pick out my pup, she only had the 1 litter downstairs, this was a BIG 2 family house...asked all my questions again with the same replies.
> However...the day I picked up Lacie at 12 wks she brought me upstairs where she had 7 play pens set up in dining room, all new litters, galley kitchen had another female and 3 males fenced off bcuz she was in heat and 8 males & 5 more females in the LR running around.
> Besides the fact that I realize now this was just an indoor puppymill...what on earth cld I have done differently before I got to this point... what did I miss other than being way to TRUSTING!
> And how cld I turn my back on my girl now bcuz she was so sick!


Ah, you poor thing. :angry: It's a daunting exper when you enter a BYB like that. Your little Lacie is so cute. :wub: Bless her heart. 
What I learned after my first BYB experience to do differently (besides asking the questions listed here) was to talk to the folks (breeders too) on this forum about any breeders I was interested in, and visit the breeders home and puppy prior to committing to anything. It was a totally different experience with a reputable show breeder I met through friends here.


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## maddysmom

Actually I talked to her for about an hour the 1st time I called and when I went to her house it was clean and just the 1 litter downstairs. This is when I picked Lacie out at 5 weeks looking healthy as can be. Thot I really did my homework and savvy enough not to be duped! 
Maggie...you Cldnt be more right...wish I had you there over my shoulder that day when she quickly answered with some story and I settled for it. I'm keeping notes bcuz I want another one in the near future and I hope this time I am a bit more smarter.

Lacie at 5 wks..


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## Lacie's Mom

Joann -- I know that you did your best. It's sad that there are people like your breeder in the world.

Lacie is definitely in good hands and it's wonderful that you have her and are caring for her. Who knows what would have happened to her if you had decided not to take her.

We all live and learn -- on so many levels.

From my Lacie to your Lacie -- I'm glad that you're in a good furever home.


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## maddysmom

Lynn....THANKU!
Lacie....WOOF WOOF (Ty)


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## SammieMom

What an adorable photo.....:wub::innocent:


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## Fluffdoll

maddysmom said:


> Actually I talked to her for about an hour the 1st time I called and when I went to her house it was clean and just the 1 litter downstairs. This is when I picked Lacie out at 5 weeks looking healthy as can be. Thot I really did my homework and savvy enough not to be duped!
> Maggie...you Cldnt be more right...wish I had you there over my shoulder that day when she quickly answered with some story and I settled for it. I'm keeping notes bcuz I want another one in the near future and I hope this time I am a bit more smarter.
> 
> Lacie at 5 wks..


She was only 5 weeks when you picked her up?? No reputable Maltese breeder would let a puppy leave until they're 12 weeks old..


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


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## maddysmom

I chose her at 5 wks and picked her up from the breeder at 12 wks...


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