# AKC open registration



## watchaduen (Feb 20, 2007)

I want to start breeding Maltese. I have had a few Maltese over the years and love the breed. I am home all the time, DH makes good money, big house with fenced yard, etc. I have been doing my homework for the past 6 mos. and am ready to purchase a male and female puppy. At two yrs. they should be ready for their first breeding, provided the they pass all the necessary genetics testing done. Okay, so no one will sell their pups with an open reg. I understand wanting to better the breed and all that. But honest question, how did they become a breeder if no one would sell them an open reg. dog? There would be no breeders correct? I can find pet quality dogs with open AKC reg., but that's doing things backwards. Why would I want to do that? I don't want to become a huge breeder, but would like a few females and a stud. They would live in my home and be my pets. Can anyone comment on how they were able to get started in the breeding if no one ever sells with open registration?


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

If you have done your reading as stated you know the intent to breed should be to better the breed, not just to procreate. Therefore, the best way to do this is to make friends and learn all you can from a reputable breeder in hopes of her/him allowing you to have one of their dogs to breed and/or possibly show. This is the best way to go about this. I wish you luck. It takes time and patience for a good breeder to trust and allow someone new into the breeding/exhibiting world, as it should be.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I agree with Brit. My understanding is that you can't put the apples before the cart. You need to get involved with the show world and get to know the circle of folks that are truly trying to better the Maltese breed. Then hopefully someone will deem you trustworthy enough to be taken under wing.


----------



## watchaduen (Feb 20, 2007)

> I agree with Brit. My understanding is that you can't put the apples before the cart. You need to get involved with the show world and get to know the circle of folks that are truly trying to better the Maltese breed. Then hopefully someone will deem you trustworthy enough to be taken under wing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess that's going to be my next homework assignment. Actually calling and talking to breeders to see how they got started. Somehow I am doubting that they all started hanging around Maltese shows hoping to make a friend that will some day "deem" them worthy of breeding also. But I guess we'll see. I am curious now to. Will let you know what I find out.


----------



## Jacki (Jul 13, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=338380
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, not just hanging around shows hoping to make a friend -- but getting started in the show world. That is really the way to get your foot in the door and start learning more. Take things in the right order. 

Maybe you want to look at your main motivation in wanting to breed dogs. Is it to make some extra money? Or to play with cute puppies? Or do you want to better the breed and produce dogs as close to the standard as possible? 

IMO, if you just want to have dogs around, just get pets. But I don't know all your reasons, so I cannot tell you what to do. But you have received some good advice here and will probably receive more, and I'd encourage you to take it seriously!


----------



## watchaduen (Feb 20, 2007)

Maybe you want to look at your main motivation in wanting to breed dogs. Is it to make some extra money? Or to play with cute puppies? Or do you want to better the breed and produce dogs as close to the standard as possible?

***All of the above. I have now called two breeders, one in Calif. and one in N.J. The breeder in Calif. was very nice and told me she had been doing this for almost 15 years. She also said that 15 years ago breeders were not picky about the open reg., thus their were many dogs to choose from. Most of whom had open reg. It wasn't until the big "little dog" boom that breeders became more picky about this. She did say that even her standards have changed over the years to more of a "better the breed" as that is becoming a standard for breeders.
The lady in NJ got into through a friend who raised Maltese. 

More phone calls to make.


----------



## Jacki (Jul 13, 2006)

> Maybe you want to look at your main motivation in wanting to breed dogs. Is it to make some extra money? Or to play with cute puppies? Or do you want to better the breed and produce dogs as close to the standard as possible?
> 
> ***All of the above. I have now called two breeders, one in Calif. and one in N.J. The breeder in Calif. was very nice and told me she had been doing this for almost 15 years. She also said that 15 years ago breeders were not picky about the open reg., thus their were many dogs to choose from. Most of whom had open reg. It wasn't until the big "little dog" boom that breeders became more picky about this. She did say that even her standards have changed over the years to more of a "better the breed" as that is becoming a standard for breeders.
> The lady in NJ got into through a friend who raised Maltese.
> ...


When I asked if you wanted to do this to make money I didn't mean to imply that is a really great reason to do it ... and I'm sure our members who are breeders will tell you this to ... this isn't something to make money on. All the costs involved in buying, finishing, breeding, and whelping a dog ........ what if the mom requires a c-section ...... what if the babies need extra special care because they're really really tiny .... or, what if one of your customers lives in a cold state and you end up having to keep their puppy for them an extra month? That's what has happened in my case and praise the Lord, Sprout's breeder has been GREAT about it, but every day that she has to feed him, give him shots, care for him, etc. basically chips away at the price I paid for him. You know? So ... anyway ... just saying there's a lot to think about. Glad you're here at SM, it's a great place to be.


----------



## watchaduen (Feb 20, 2007)

When I asked if you wanted to do this to make money I didn't mean to imply that is a really great reason to do it ... and I'm sure our members who are breeders will tell you this to ... this isn't something to make money on. All the costs involved in buying, finishing, breeding, and whelping a dog ........ what if the mom requires a c-section ...... what if the babies need extra special care because they're really really tiny .... or, what if one of your customers lives in a cold state and you end up having to keep their puppy for them an extra month? That's what has happened in my case and praise the Lord, Sprout's breeder has been GREAT about it, but every day that she has to feed him, give him shots, care for him, etc. basically chips away at the price I paid for him. You know? So ... anyway ... just saying there's a lot to think about. Glad you're here at SM, it's a great place to be.








[/QUOTE]

I guess anytime I owned pets that is just expenses you incur. Purchashing them, the vet bills (reg. schedualed and sick visits), groomer, dog food & treats. You can't count that money against any dollars made off of a litter. That's part of owning a pet. That's why I only wanted to do this small scale. They would be my pets. I am sure the vet bills for Mom and pups could get up there. But if this was a losing money business, I don't believe people would do it. Of course they love Maltese so it started in their hearts. And the little pup that your breeder is feeding an additional month, I am sure you paid enough for him that she isn't going broke. LOL

I talked to a lady in Alabama. She has been doing this for quite a while. Even before internet dogs became the norm. She has limited reg. but she said it had to do with AKC. Not sure what she meant by that. I have also left a few messages and waiting to hear back from some breeders. So far everyone has been very nice to tell me how they got into it. I didn't think everyone knew a breeder friend and that's how they started. 

I love this site. Full of great information.


----------



## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

I guess anytime I owned pets that is just expenses you incur. Purchashing them, the vet bills (reg. schedualed and sick visits), groomer, dog food & treats. You can't count that money against any dollars made off of a litter. That's part of owning a pet. That's why I only wanted to do this small scale. They would be my pets. I am sure the vet bills for Mom and pups could get up there. *But if this was a losing money business, I don't believe people would do it.* Of course they love Maltese so it started in their hearts. And the little pup that your breeder is feeding an additional month, I am sure you paid enough for him that she isn't going broke. LOL


I have been breeding Maltese for the past 7 years. On a small scale it is *not *a money maker. I wanted to show Maltese so, I started breeding because I couldn't afford to pay the high prices for other people's Maltese. Their dogs had the same pedigrees as mine did. That breeder that fed that puppy for the extra month didn't make extra on holding it for that long, she did it because she knew the puppy was going to a very good home. She did it for the puppy and its new owner. 

Breeders who are showing and have Champions and have put in all the work into their programs are making some money on their litters. They are asking high prices and they are getting that price. They have built up their name and their Kennel to be known for very nice dogs within the Maltese standards. 

Right now people are expecting a perfect dog within standard Maltese for very little money. They won't even buy a puppy for less money because of an under bite, being a little too big, coat cottony, or some other reason the breeder can't show the dog with. The new buyer also wants the puppy to be potty trained. 



I got started with a male from Kansas City. The woman was just having one litter so her girl would settle down. Come to find out he has a very good pedigree. The girl I bought, the breeder did not restrict her registration. She was going to allow me to breed her. This was in 2000. Her pedigree was okay and she produced really nice puppies from the male I had. Later it was discovered her dad was not the dad she was registered with. The new dad had a very good pedigree. So, I lucked out. 

To continue on, I did find someone who helped me with getting started showing. I bought 2 dogs from her. They were not perfect and the price was high. Today, I am still working out the trait I don't like in the girl and the boy had a tragic accident. 

Breeding isn't just putting two nice dogs together. You need to know what is behind the dog you are going to breed. Is there any health issues? You won't know if the breeder won't tell you and a lot of good breeders won't tell you because they are afraid it will get out and ruin their reputation. 

Sometimes you have to wait to get a good pup for breeding and showing. Most breeders who are worth their salt aren't just cranking out puppies. They plan the breeding ahead of time. A girl only comes in season twice a year, if you are lucky. Some only once per year. Some dogs are not mean't to breed. An under bite can be hereditary. It can also be just a one time happening. The breeder will be able to figure this out and correct it in future breedings. 

It sounds like you are doing a lot of research to figure this out. Another thing to think about. If you breed long enough you will have some type of health issues crop up, its what you do with those results that make or break you. 

Good Luck,

Tina


----------



## watchaduen (Feb 20, 2007)

I just spoke with a breeder of show dogs only. Been doing this for years. Doesn't sell any of her pups unless they aren't show quality. Those become pets with limited reg. She occas. will sell a show dog but even that comes with a contract. She is very picky about who her pets even go to. I really liked her and she was very honest. Back in the day when she started breeding, breeders charged more if the person wanted open reg. as it was a way to make more money off of the pup, as it was assumed the new owner was going to make money off of the pup. But she did say that times have changed, breeder's ethics have changed and it has become a very tight knit circle and hard to break into these days, with a lot of inside politics involved. She then did go on about breeding for the betterment of the breed, show quality and such. Great lady. I am at least loving their honesty.


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I'm someone who is just getting into breeding maltese, it is definitely not an easy thing to get into! The way I see it, there is a right way to do it and there is a way that is not as right (I won't say 'wrong') I'm trying to do it the right way. It did take getting to know people and having breeders getting to know me, not just me saying that I wanted to breed and I needed to find some nice dogs. I feel it's a privledge being entrusted with an open registration, and honestly? I'm glad quality breeders are as protective as they are. I am interested in it to better the breed and my only goal is to hopefully breed my own dogs for the show ring. I'm not in it just for the sake of selling puppies, I want to keep and show them.

I bought my first maltese as a pet a year ago, never knowing I'd want to do anything else and surely never dreaming I'd love the breed so much! She was on a limited registration and after discovering this site, my eyes were opened a bit and I became interested in showing. I was lucky and actually wound up with a pet maltese that was show quality from a reputable show breeder. It took going to the National maltese show in Arizona and other shows, getting to know people, and becoming involved with the show world to demonstrate to Lucy's breeder that I was really serious about becoming more involved with the breed and could be trusted with a changed registration. Only then, did she feel comfortable changing the registration to open so Lucy could be finished and then eventually bred. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I had to have Lucy spayed but that is how I got 'started'. 

My other girl Caddy that I have was entrusted to me after getting to know breeders on this site and I'm so happy to have her. The only reason I would even dream of breeding her is to hopefully get show quality puppies from her, and those puppies I will be keeping for myself, LOL! I guess that's the way I feel about it - if you aren't breeding to better the breed and for show prospects, it should probably be left to the people who do have that goal in mind, otherwise you venture into 'backyard breeder' territory. I can tell you this much - I doubt I will EVER make a profit from this and that is completely fine!

Please do not take offense to anything I have said, I'm not trying to imply anything here! You have obviously done a lot of research and please PLEASE be careful when making those phone calls! The breeders that will sell you dogs with open registration without getting to know you, with you just saying you want to breed maltese will most likely not have the best quality dogs to begin with. The people on this forum are very passionate about people who breed without regard to health or standard, so just wanted to mention that in case you get any replies that might not be the most friendly, that is where they stem from. 

Good luck to you! If you have any questions or need anything, feel free to PM me. And welcome to Spoiled Maltese!


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

What I am going to say is not directed to you personally, so please don't take it that way.

On any given day, a well known breeder will get a number of inquiries for pups. I'm a small breeder, and I still get several in a week. Usually the email is along the same lines: People wanting a dog for breeding. One I got today asked for open registration, and said that she wanted to breed it to her girl who had a champions in the pedigree. The only thing she asked about my dog was size. Usually, the second question is price. Rarely do I get questions asking about pedigree (although some are on my website), and I've never got one about health issues. So, while your intentions may be very good, you are penalized by all those who come before you who might not be. Too many breeders have been burned. Five years ago, it was a lot easier than it is today, and I'm sure that further back, it was even easier to find people to give open registration.

Breeding is like making a cake. You have to know your ingredients and how they will fit together to make one that is something that is delicious and you are proud of. One of the first thing any good breeder you talk with will want to know is how much you know about the lines and what they can be expected to provide for you. They will want to know your long range plans. For instance, I might have a dog I love except for the speed with which it grows coat (have one of those). He is a beautiful champion who produces dogs with great topline, beautiful movement, fantastic pigment, and many other things I want except that the dogs do not grow their coat that fast. I have two other males that I can breed his daughters to and solve this problem. My goal is to do every breeding as if I am breeding for dogs for me to show. Sure, I can't keep them all (wish I could), but I want to have the opportunity to select the very best from those breedings, and to sell others to people who will want them for show or to give them a good family home. And, speaking of that, when I do sell one, I want to know how it will live from now on. If I were selling one that would be bred, I would want to know how the offspring would be cared for also.
Further, if you contacted someone like me, they would want to know what you know about caring for a pregnant mom, whelping, and raising the pups. Say your girl needed a c-section, are you going to be able to give the next week or so staying up with her around the clock to feed and clean the pups? When they wean, are you going to be able to monitor them if they do like some around this time and quit eating? I loose sleep many nights when I have pups. I love every minute of raising them, and I would want to know that anyone who had one of mine felt the same way. Sleep and anything else in your life during this time has to be put on the back burner. 
If you are looking for a pup of exceptional quality that is considered breeding quality, are you willing to pay the price that would be expected for a show pup? Because that is exactly what it would be. When a pup is 12 weeks old, it may or may not be headed in that direction. A good breeder would need to keep it longer to make that assessment, as the bite might go off or there may be something else that is not desirable to pass on.
And, speaking of the pup that was kept an extra month. It's just not about feeding and any little money that would be involved. There is also a lot of care that goes into a pup from the time it is 12 weeks old until it is, say 16 weeks. That pup has to have nails done, feet trimmed, brushing, and baths. If a breeder does not do their own shots and worming, there is another trip or two to the vet which would involve extra expense and time. I love mine, and I have no problems helping out a new owner if it needs to stay longer. Pups that are kept for show must be kept a minimum of six months, so there is a lot of extra care that goes on in those extra months. 
You said that you didn't believe everyone got their start by going to shows to meet people or by having friends who bred. To me, the key is to find someone you trust and who trusts you who will work with you to help you learn. You need a mentor. I am fortunate to have an exceptional one who is there for me anytime I have a question or comment. I have learned so much from her, and I am grateful for what she has taught me. God has a special place for her in heaven. I am always willing to share what I know with others because I feel it is the Christian thing to do to pass it on. 
If you have questions, please feel free to PM me. I'll share what I do know.
And, if you find a way to make any money doing this, I would like to know. I am a small scale breeder, and I have a real job to support the ability to be able to breed and show. Some people do it for other reasons than money, so yes, there are those of us who loose money and continue with it.


----------



## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> I just spoke with a breeder of show dogs only. Been doing this for years. Doesn't sell any of her pups unless they aren't show quality. Those become pets with limited reg. She occas. will sell a show dog but even that comes with a contract. She is very picky about who her pets even go to. I really liked her and she was very honest. Back in the day when she started breeding, breeders charged more if the person wanted open reg. as it was a way to make more money off of the pup, as it was assumed the new owner was going to make money off of the pup. But she did say that times have changed, breeder's ethics have changed and it has become a very tight knit circle and hard to break into these days, with a lot of inside politics involved. She then did go on about breeding for the betterment of the breed, show quality and such. Great lady. I am at least loving their honesty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just went back and read through this thread again. I'm not sure if you are going from breeder to breeder to find the answer of how they got started, or hoping you will find one who will sell pups with open registration. I just want to throw something out to you....

One, good pups that breeders don't show are usually sold to other known show breeders. At the very least, they are sold to someone they may be mentoring. It is highly unlikely that anyone with quality dogs will just sell you a good pup. The name of the game is to put as many of your line into the show ring so they can be seen. It is a way of advertising for breeders, as well as a status thing. There is nothing to be gained by selling breeding stock to someone who just wants to breed. True, you may find open registration, but, as you learn more about the breed, you may find that it was just a mediocre dog. I'll bet you will pay the same price as someone who gets a top dog from that kennel, if you find someone to sell to you. In fact, I ran from one in Florida once who didn't ask any questions of me--just told me she had one available for $5000. I know another person who bought one in that price range from a very well known breeder that tuned out to have a bad bite. She let it go at nine weeks. Now, she just has an expensive dog with a bad bite that she can't show, and a breeder who won't stand behind it.
All good breeders have restrictions on their dogs, even when sold for show. It is common that offspring cannot be sold to anyone else except for show with full registration. Some even restrict sell out with full registration for two generations. 
Also, if I, or someone like me were looking for a new pup, we would know what we are shopping for. We would know the lines a breeder has and what they are able to produce from those lines. We would know that we were going to a Lexus dealer to get a Lexus. In obtaining a second dog to go with that one, they might need to go through the same process again with another breeder, as the same one might not have what would work with the first dog. 
Say you do find a breeder who has dogs with good pedigrees, are you able to assess those dogs to make sure they are the quality that would produce what you want? Do you know the dogs behind them and how they produced? Will the resulting offspring provide the type dog you expect to breed (size, face, coat, movement, topline, etc)? If not, just buying a dog with a pedigree could be a real crap shot for you. Not every champion is capable of producing dogs who will become champions. The are many dogs with far less in the pedigree who may produce better dogs. 
I just want to caution you that calling breeders without knowing their lines and the answers to questions they may ask you is probably sending up red flags to some of them.
Again, I recommend you try to find a mentor. It takes time to find the right dog to get started, and the right person to help you.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

> But if this was a losing money business, I don't believe people would do it.[/B]


I think you are going to VERY surprised how many good breeders... only break even...or lose money on the hobby/business of showing and breeding Maltese.


----------



## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

> QUOTE





> But if this was a losing money business, I don't believe people would do it.[/B]


I think you are going to VERY surprised how many good breeders... only break even...or lose money on the hobby/business of showing and breeding Maltese.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I tend to agree, Dakota's breeder told me of a story years ago where one of his girls needed an emergency C-Section at 3 am, she ended up having to have a hystirectomy (sp) and none of the pups survived - it cost him just under $3,000 in vet bills alone - not to mention no puppies, and the female no longer able to breed.

I don't mean to be negative - I just wanted to share a not so happy story regarding breeding.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

> I talked to a lady in Alabama. She has been doing this for quite a while. Even before internet dogs became the norm. She has limited reg. but she said it had to do with AKC. Not sure what she meant by that. I have also left a few messages and waiting to hear back from some breeders. So far everyone has been very nice to tell me how they got into it. I didn't think everyone knew a breeder friend and that's how they started.
> 
> I love this site. Full of great information.[/B]




I never said it's how everyone got started. I said it's the best way to start. You can buy your backyard breeder dogs and stick them together and be a "breeder" but it certainly isn't the best way.

I have a feeling you're missing the point. Calling to get stories of long time breeders' beginnings may not have been the best way and took them many more years to breed the type of dogs we see today. People are becoming much more educated in what they want for a pet, etc., and breeders need to live up to the standard...both for the health of the dog and the visual part.



Yes, it's true AKC did not have limited registration years ago, BUT, reputable caring breeders simply did NOT give AKC papers when selling pets. I know. I was one of them. With the advent of AKC issuing limited papers breeders now must account for all papers and dogs and who they go to.


----------



## Tanner's Mom (May 27, 2005)

Wow! What an interesting thread. I hang around the dog shows and have gotten to know some of the breeders and they are simply delightful people to talk to, so knowledgeable, so willing to share. One of them even asked me if I wanted to get into breeding. This lady would be wonderful mentor, been showing for many years, has beautiful little dogs. But I told her I wasn't sure I wanted that kind of responsibility because it is a huge responsibility bringing new life into the world. And besides, I know me, I'd end up with a yard full of little white dogs.


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=338466
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is what I was trying to say about the right way to do it and the not so right way of doing things. I don't want to be a backyard breeder, I want to produce show quality dogs. 

I can't even remember when I didn't know who the top show breeders were, but I know it wasn't that long ago! It's obvious you want to breed quality dogs, so take your time and get to know the breed and the breeders. Hopefully with your phone calls you'll see a pattern emerging of getting to know people and finding a good mentor. Good luck to you!


----------



## thelittlepet (Apr 18, 2006)

I am with Carole. I am quite sure that my breeder is not making money at this. It is her hobby and she loves the little puppies and the time she can spend with them. She loves seeing people take home a pup and hear about it's life and how happy it has made the family. She does not ever sell show prospects and all of hers, even ones that are show quality as my Bentley certainly is, are sold on limited registration.
Aimee


----------

