# Show dogs vs. family pets.............



## Mollys humans (Apr 16, 2007)

We went to the dog show at Cal Expo here in Sacramento this weekend. Our first time to a dog show but we went because Molly came from two Champions.......she made us go.

We found a small group of Maltese and asked a few questions. One lady told us that she shows a couple of hers but that she's not considered a "professional dog show-er". I asked what she meant by that and she shared a number of things with us. The most prominent being that many of the people showing dogs keep their dogs in cages at home.

It got me to thinking (and viewing those people totally different). I can't imagine anybody keeping a Maltese in a cage, pen, etc. especially not on a regular basis......or for any length of time. 

Why do they show dogs if they can't be a pet and part of the family? Is it just an ego thing? I don't get it.......if somebody could explain. The time and attention that goes into maintaining a Maltese......if it's not a member of the family (their pet), why would they bother?

Molly came from Champion lines on both sides and she's AKC regstered but she'll never be a show dog......she has a full time job taking care of two humans.


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## bbry (Feb 17, 2007)

I don't know if that is true or not because I do not show dogs and have never been to a dog show. Hopefully, someone who is more familiar with this will reply soon but in the meantime








.


> We went to the dog show at Cal Expo here in Sacramento this weekend. Our first time to a dog show but we went because Molly came from two Champions.......she made us go.
> 
> We found a small group of Maltese and asked a few questions. One lady told us that she shows a couple of hers but that she's not considered a "professional dog show-er". I asked what she meant by that and she shared a number of things with us. The most prominent being that many of the people showing dogs keep their dogs in cages at home.
> 
> ...


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I'm someone who is just getting into showing and I'm doing it because I love this breed of dog. My 'show dogs' are family pets though, although they do spend time in cages. Well, actually I only have one dog I'm trying to show and one dog that was supposed to be shown but I had to have her spayed and shaved down. The main reason show dogs are kept in pens and cages is because of the coat. It is very hard to grown and maintain a maltese in full coat, believe me! At least it is for me. The hubby doesn't want the dogs sleeping with us so they are kept in a cage at night, and they are perfectly happy with this arrangement. They'll go and sleep in their cages periodically through the day and to give you a size reference, my 8 yr old daughter locks herself in with them and isn't cramped. 

That said, the reason why people 'bother' to show their dogs is because it is important to them that their dogs are found within the maltese standard, since most people who show also breed their dogs. It is taking that extra step (and spending the money, because believe me, it's not cheap!) that seperates show breeder from backyard/hobby breeders. If you poll the majority of members here, (actually, I did) you will find that most of us prefer to get our dogs from show breeders. I know I do! Obviously, there are egos involved to a certain extent, but you'll also find pride and satisfaction. I notice you talk about the champions in your dog's pedigree - don't you like the fact that they are in your dog's lineage? Doesn't it give you a small measure of reassurance that Molly's grandparents, etc were 'good' enough to be shown? Although I think you got her at a petstore, right? Don't take offense to this but typically, you don't get your show maltese from a pet store. And if you actually did purchase a maltese from a pet store and she wound up being free of any faults that would disqualify her from the ring, consider yourself VERY fortunate. 

Ethical show breeders do not sell their puppies to pet stores. Can you imagine breeding Molly and then selling the puppies to a petstore, where you won't know what home they went to? I doubt it! Especially since i'm sure that Molly was sold with full registration. Ethical breeders sell their pet puppies with limited registration, so no offspring could be registered with the AKC.

Here is the link to the poll I did about where SM members would purchase their next puppy.
http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...c=17454&hl=


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

> I'm someone who is just getting into showing and I'm doing it because I love this breed of dog. My 'show dogs' are family pets though, although they do spend time in cages. Well, actually I only have one dog I'm trying to show and one dog that was supposed to be shown but I had to have her spayed and shaved down. The main reason show dogs are kept in pens and cages is because of the coat. It is very hard to grown and maintain a maltese in full coat, believe me! At least it is for me. The hubby doesn't want the dogs sleeping with us so they are kept in a cage at night, and they are perfectly happy with this arrangement. They'll go and sleep in their cages periodically through the day and to give you a size reference, my 8 yr old daughter locks herself in with them and isn't cramped.
> 
> That said, the reason why people 'bother' to show their dogs is because it is important to them that their dogs are found within the maltese standard, since most people who show also breed their dogs. It is taking that extra step (and spending the money, because believe me, it's not cheap!) that seperates show breeder from backyard/hobby breeders. If you poll the majority of members here, (actually, I did) you will find that most of us prefer to get our dogs from show breeders. I know I do! Obviously, there are egos involved to a certain extent, but you'll also find pride and satisfaction. I notice you talk about the champions in your dog's pedigree - don't you like the fact that they are in your dog's lineage?[/B]



I believe the key is "love of the breed". Competitions/hobbies are expensive and one doesn't do them if they don't love doing it. If a show breeder is making a living off of selling puppies - then they are doing it wrong - I saw this quote on many reputable breeders websites. My future puppy has champion bloodlines on both sides and in several generations - I want a healthy puppy and I believe that this pedigree while not preventing all health issues - means that the breeder put in the time and energy to breed for the betterment of the breed and not just to produce puppies. I don't even have my puppy yet, but I have researched and read a great deal about this breed. I do not take pet ownership lightly, I did not choose this breed just because it was tiny and cute. Even pet ownership of a non show maltese is a great deal of work as everyone on this website knows - and they do it because they love their babies. 

JJ


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## MySugarBaby (Jun 28, 2006)

I don't know about the caging part but the thing that bugs me is that show dogs like yorkies and maltese aren't allowed to be normal dogs. For instance, because of their coat, they are never allowed to go on grass, the grass blades will break their hair. My dogs love playing outside and getting the fresh air and playing in the grass. I can't imagine taking that away from them. They also have to have their hair wrapped which has to be uncomfortable for the dog and so much more goes into keeping the coat so nice. To me, I think it is a bit unfair for the dogs as they aren't allowed do any of these things.
I have nothing against showing, I just wish you could show with a natural coat where the care isn't so extensive.
The price you pay for beauty.
On the upside, it usually only takes a couple of years to champion your dog, so I have been told, and after they allow them to act more like a dog.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Many show dogs do get a fairly normal life in that they get to play outside and inside, though they may spend time in pens. These pens aren't or shouldn't be tiny but rather like little homes with food and water and a toy or two. Sometimes there will be two to a pen to keep one another company. Some showdogs are pets also. Some aren't. Some show breeders have more dogs than others and cannot let them all run all over the house together. There are many reasons for that including accidental breedings, dog fighting and injuries. Showdogs are often in wraps so there is less chance of breakage, however, who wants grass stain on a showdog's feet? Ever seen that in the showring? lol

Look at that cute lil grasshopper! Heh!


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> I don't know about the caging part but the thing that bugs me is that show dogs like yorkies and maltese aren't allowed to be normal dogs. For instance, because of their coat, they are never allowed to go on grass, the grass blades will break their hair. My dogs love playing outside and getting the fresh air and playing in the grass. I can't imagine taking that away from them. They also have to have their hair wrapped which has to be uncomfortable for the dog and so much more goes into keeping the coat so nice. To me, I think it is a bit unfair for the dogs as they aren't allowed do any of these things.
> I have nothing against showing, I just wish you could show with a natural coat where the care isn't so extensive.
> The price you pay for beauty.
> On the upside, it usually only takes a couple of years to champion your dog, so I have been told, and after they allow them to act more like a dog.[/B]


That's not true in my case, I take CAddy to the dog park and she runs around on the grass. I don't let her out in my backyard (either of my girls) because I have a pine tree and let me just say that the pine needles and a full coat are not the most compatible. I don't keep her in wraps but when I have, she doesn't mind them. Actually she likes them (it's paper, you know) 

And in my case, the only thing that Caddy is not allowed is greenies and chewie sticks. Any dog in full coat, regardless of show intentions, would have a problem with those items! Have you ever had to extracate a half chewed greenie from a beard? OMG. It's awful! Oh and she can't run up my carpeted stairs. 

Typically, you can finish your dog before they are a year old, if you're lucky!


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## princessmuffy (Mar 27, 2006)

My maltese who I'm trying to show is my pet. I do let him play outside, but that isn't always great on his coat. He's very loved and petted we just have to do some things different to take extra care with his coat. He does stay in a cage at night as well. It's at the foot of my bed. He loves it. He even goes in there on his own during the day to take a nap. 

Did you enjoy the dog show? It takes a lot of work to raise dogs who become champions, and I'm very thankful that people have done this over the years. If not, we wouldn't be able to enjoy the Maltese the way it is today.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> My maltese who I'm trying to show is my pet. I do let him play outside, but that isn't always great on his coat. He's very loved and petted we just have to do some things different to take extra care with his coat. He does stay in a cage at night as well. It's at the foot of my bed. He loves it. He even goes in there on his own during the day to take a nap.
> 
> Did you enjoy the dog show? It takes a lot of work to raise dogs who become champions, and I'm very thankful that people have done this over the years. If not, we wouldn't be able to enjoy the Maltese the way it is today.[/B]


Did Boss look like this?

[attachment=21669:attachment]


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## princessmuffy (Mar 27, 2006)

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Yep, exactly. hee hee -See what we're talking about? Ahhhh, the love of grooming the show maltese..... Actually, I love every minute of it. (well almost)


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

I am a newbie in the dog show world too and sadly one of the sacrifices we have to make as a family is caring for their coat and that includes some playplen time. 
Nacho is wrapped at the moment (he is going to be to be in the upcoming World Dog Show) so he doesn`t get much interaction with other dogs because they tend to like to rip off the little packages. It`s been hard mostly for my daughter who wants to play with him but i can say that he truly LOVES the shows. This is been going on for about a year now and i plan to stop next september to complete his Latin American Championship. Then...he is getting a really serious haircut and he`ll be back to own the whole house again. 
I plan to do the same with my girls (i have a beautiful new baby: Bianca) and then they will be free again to play with each other.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> I am a newbie in the dog show world too and sadly one of the sacrifices we have to make as a family is caring for their coat and that includes some playplen time.
> Nacho is wrapped at the moment (he is going to be to be in the upcoming World Dog Show) so he doesn`t get much interaction with other dogs because they tend to like to rip off the little packages. It`s been hard mostly for my daughter who wants to play with him but i can say that he truly LOVES the shows. This is been going on for about a year now and i plan to stop next september to complete his Latin American Championship. Then...he is getting a really serious haircut and he`ll be back to own the whole house again.
> I plan to do the same with my girls (i have a beautiful new baby: Bianca) and then they will be free again to play with each other.[/B]



What??? You got a new little girl and didnt' say anything?? Or did I miss it? I'll have a new girl next weekend, can't wait for that! How is Maya doing? Is she going to be shown? Having Lucy in a short cut again is a huge relief but I really have to supervise Caddy and Lucy playing together because Lucy LOVES to grab Caddy's tail and hang onto it. Then Caddy bulldozes under Lucy and messes her topknot up. But I hate keeping them seperated so I just break it up if it becomes to hard on the coat. 

And hurray for Nacho in the World Dog Show!! What an honor!!


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## Andrea&Luci (Jul 30, 2006)

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LOL STACY Caddy looks so adorable in the picture and looks like she had so much fun getting down and dirty!!!! And I didn't know you were getting another little girl! My dream is to have like 4 Maltese beauties running around my house!! Can't wait to see pictures!!!!!


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

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Yep, exactly. hee hee -See what we're talking about? Ahhhh, the love of grooming the show maltese..... Actually, I love every minute of it. (well almost)
[/B][/QUOTE]


LOL STACY Caddy looks so adorable in the picture and looks like she had so much fun getting down and dirty!!!! And I didn't know you were getting another little girl! My dream is to have like 4 Maltese beauties running around my house!! Can't wait to see pictures!!!!!






















[/B][/QUOTE]


Oh yes, she had LOTS of fun getting dirty! And she didn't mind too much getting cleaned up either, she's pretty good about it. 

I havent' made a post about my new girl but I'm picking her up this weekend. I'm soooo excited! Here is a pic of her that was sent to me.
[attachment=21680:attachment]

I can't wait until you get 4 little malts running around your house!!


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## CathyB (Mar 10, 2007)

Oh stacy she is cute! My malts go outside as well . I crate at night only they are my pets first and showdogs second.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I wrote Stacy last week asking about her new puppy. Now I need to hear about Bianca. Come on folks.....why are we keeping secrets.....we're all family!


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## my baby (Aug 22, 2006)

Stacy your new pup is gorgeous!!! Such a cutie!!!














Congratulations!!!


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> I wrote Stacy last week asking about her new puppy. Now I need to hear about Bianca. Come on folks.....why are we keeping secrets.....we're all family![/B]


Oh No secrets here, just not enough time to post and no good pictures to share. Bianca is going to be 1 year old next May and she is beautiful. I promise to share her with you guys very soon. She is in oil so the pics doesn`t come as pretty as she really is.
I was blessed to get her, she is really an angel









Stacy, you new baby is ADORABLE!


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## cruisinpat (Jan 29, 2007)

Stacie - your new baby is so cute. All of you have such beautiful furbabies..............Pat


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## Mollys humans (Apr 16, 2007)

> I don't know about the caging part but the thing that bugs me is that show dogs like yorkies and maltese aren't allowed to be normal dogs. For instance, because of their coat, they are never allowed to go on grass, the grass blades will break their hair. My dogs love playing outside and getting the fresh air and playing in the grass. I can't imagine taking that away from them. They also have to have their hair wrapped which has to be uncomfortable for the dog and so much more goes into keeping the coat so nice. To me, I think it is a bit unfair for the dogs as they aren't allowed do any of these things.
> I have nothing against showing, I just wish you could show with a natural coat where the care isn't so extensive.
> The price you pay for beauty.
> On the upside, it usually only takes a couple of years to champion your dog, so I have been told, and after they allow them to act more like a dog.[/B]



That's exactly what I'm talking about. Molly has full run of the house and free exit and entrance to the back yard through her pet doors. She spends most of her time inside but she does go out for a few minutes, several times a day. I have saw her rolling in the grass and she does love to run in circles through the lawn.

Inside, she has a bed up on the fireplace hearth and she's also made a section of the hallway her place, too and she'll sleep in either place. But she has freedom to be a dog......to play at will.

When the lady at the dog show readily admitted that she's not considered a professional shower because she lets her dogs run loose at home vs. keeping them in a cage. I turned and looked across the arena at so many beautiful dogs and thought to myself "how could anybody keep these dogs in a cage......even for a part of the day?". I just don't understand how that can be equated to "love for the breed".

Never pictured myself as one of those dog lovers before.........Molly has changed all that. LOL


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

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I hate the fact that I'm taking offense to what you are saying here. I am pretty sure that I know exactly 
who you talked to at the show and please don't take what one person says as absolute fact, or come to the conclucsion that just because you think she is doing it the 'right' way, than everybody else is wrong. Honestly? You're insulting a lot of people by your blanket statements that people who keep their dogs in cages don't really love their dogs. 

You're a new maltese owner who was just realized how wonderful these dogs are. Been there, done that, believe meLOL! Look at my user name! I was completely blindsided by the wonderfulness that is this breed. And now I've gotten into showing because I love these dogs so much. YES BECAUSE I LOVE THESE DOGS. It sure isn't for profit because do you know how expensive it is to show a dog??? There is no doubt that there are sacrfices to be made and grass that doesn't get run on, but I feel it's important, as do the majority of people who show their dogs. And the people who want puppies with champion lines from show breeders feel it's important too. 

If you want to feel outraged about dogs being kept in cages, it might do better to focus your contempt on the dogs that are kept in cages all of the time and who serve no other purpose than to churn out puppies so that they can be sold to pet stores where people can just walk in and buy them, regardless if they are fit dog owners or not. They are called puppymills. 

I think it's wonderful that Molly has such a great life with you. Another point to consider is that a lot of pet owners do not give their maltese the same freedom as you do because they fear for their dogs safety by having that much freedom, and hopefully you don't have a problem with pet owners keeping their dogs contained for their own safety. I didn't have a problem with Lucy when I first got her because she was the most non-meddling puppy EVER, but I did crate her at night because she does not sleep with me (the hubby won't let the dogs sleep with us) If Molly is out in the backyard without supervision, PLEASE keep in mind that hawks and other birds have been known to see little dogs as prey!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I have to agree with Stacy. Your outrage at show breeders is misplaced. Your anger should be directed at puppy mills which is where your Molly came from.

I suggest you read these articles and educate yourself about pet store puppies and puppy mills.

http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/safari/84/article1.html

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_adoption_info...uppy/index.html

http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/petshop1.html


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> I have to agree with Stacy. Your outrage at show breeders is misplaced. Your anger should be directed at puppy mills which is where your Molly came from.
> 
> I suggest you read these articles and educate yourself about pet store puppies and puppy mills.
> 
> ...


I knew I could count on you to provide the links for education purposes! Thank you. I don't even want to think about Molly's parents who are probably still in cages, and most likely, always will be.


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## MissMelanie (Feb 13, 2006)

DEAR Mayrie,



Bianca? OH JOY! YEAH for Nacho!










Melanie





> I am a newbie in the dog show world too and sadly one of the sacrifices we have to make as a family is caring for their coat and that includes some playplen time.
> Nacho is wrapped at the moment (he is going to be to be in the upcoming World Dog Show) so he doesn`t get much interaction with other dogs because they tend to like to rip off the little packages. It`s been hard mostly for my daughter who wants to play with him but i can say that he truly LOVES the shows. This is been going on for about a year now and i plan to stop next september to complete his Latin American Championship. Then...he is getting a really serious haircut and he`ll be back to own the whole house again.
> I plan to do the same with my girls (i have a beautiful new baby: Bianca) and then they will be free again to play with each other.[/B]


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Congrats Stacy and Mayrie on your new pups!

Mayrie - I can't wait to see your pup!! I want some new pics of Nacho too!


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> Congrats Stacy and Mayrie on your new pups!
> 
> Mayrie - I can't wait to see your pup!! I want some new pics of Nacho too![/B]


Soon, i promise


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## lonestar (Dec 21, 2004)

I think showing dogs is a way of life for many people. When they are at the shows the safest place to keep your dogs is in a crate. Most of those dogs are someones pets and are treated no differently then we treat ours when they are at home. I use to show Afghans years ago and i know that our dogs then were just as spoiled as my Maltese are today. Showing dogs is an expensive hobby and truly not for every one. But the people that show and then breed their champions give us the beautiful Maltese that we all love today. Many times the dogs are put with Handlers. This is a job for them, and they may not show all them the attention we think they need, but most of the Handlers I know are wonderful to the dogs that are in their care. I know it some times looks cruel but I think most of the dogs are okay with being there.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Congrats Stacy and Mayrie on your new pups!
> 
> Mayrie - I can't wait to see your pup!! I want some new pics of Nacho too![/B]


Thank you Charmaine! I am really exited to get her!

I agree also - Mayrie, we need new pics!


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

[attachment=21712:attachment][attachment=21713:attachment]Molly, since you bought a pet store puppy, I thought you might be interested in some actual pictures of the puppymills that supply dogs to pet stores.


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## madison (Apr 9, 2007)

> [attachment=21712:attachment][attachment=21713:attachment]Molly, since you bought a pet store puppy, I thought you might be interested in some actual pictures of the puppymills that supply dogs to pet stores.[/B]



Those pictures of the puppymill is horrible. I never realized that is where pet stores get their puppies. When we buy a puppy from these places we are just allow the people who are breeding these puppies to stay in business. There has got to be away to stop this......................


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I agree with you completely that puppymills should be stopped.

I am happy to say that the country I live in has a good monitoring system. I made a post about this just a few days ago in the puppymill/byb section.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Molly's Humans, please read Hope's story. These are the people you should be angry at.

http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/Hope.html


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Those pictures are heartbreaking. I'm pretty sure the lady hubby got Sophie from was a broker and she most likely came from a puppy mill. I sometimes wonder about Sophie's parents and could almost cry thinking they are locked up in a little box outside somewhere with no love or affection or protection from the elements, just little products to produce more little products. I'm sure there's a special place in heck for puppy mill owners.

I went into a small petstore here one day and was about to buy some items when I walked to the back and came upon two fish aquariams that were filled with little puppies of differing ages, no apparent particular breed. I will never forget one who was a little older than the rest and the haunting look in his eyes as he pleadingly looked at me. I dropped what I had and ran out and burst into tears. I was too shocked and too new of a pet owner to say anything. I couldn't sleep that night thinking of them all alone in glass boxes. Glass boxes!!! Now that I am more educated I don't know how I'd react if I saw that today, but it wouldn't be pretty.

But, back to the original topic - and this is definitely not a judgment on anyone - because I don't find anything wrong with this at all. I spend a lot of time with Sophie, but I'm sure not nearly as much one on one time as a show dog owner must do to train and groom them and the dogs always look so happy in the ring. I don't think anything is wrong with crating your baby at night to sleep or when you have to leave them alone, heck I think I put my skin kids in their cribs and play pens more than I've ever crated Sophie - but I can't wrap my brain around how hard it must be to retire and rehome a show dog. Although, if there was a little female retiree looking for a home, I'd be more than willing to "take her in" like some other SM members have done. I think that would be a wonderful way to spoil a maltese



> Molly's Humans, please read Hope's story. These are the people you should be angry at.
> 
> http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/Hope.html[/B]


And she should definitely look at this video. This was posted in another thread and I cry through the whole thing. (Am I wrong thinking one of our members made this video?)


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Those pictures are heartbreaking. I'm pretty sure the lady hubby got Sophie from was a broker and she most likely came from a puppy mill. I sometimes wonder about Sophie's parents and could almost cry thinking they are locked up in a little box outside somewhere with no love or affection or protection from the elements, just little products to produce more little products. I'm sure there's a special place in heck for puppy mill owners.
> 
> I went into a small petstore here one day and was about to buy some items when I walked to the back and came upon two fish aquariams that were filled with little puppies of differing ages, no apparent particular breed. I will never forget one who was a little older than the rest and the haunting look in his eyes as he pleadingly looked at me. I dropped what I had and ran out and burst into tears. I was too shocked and too new of a pet owner to say anything. I couldn't sleep that night thinking of them all alone in glass boxes. Glass boxes!!! Now that I am more educated I don't know how I'd react if I saw that today, but it wouldn't be pretty.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input into this thread!! 

I just also wanted to take a minute to tell Molly's mommy that I'm sorry if I came across as hostile or defensive, but I think it was a kneejerk reaction to feeling like I was doing something wrong because my girls are caged a part of the time. I realize now that your biggest objection is any cage, period, and you can't imagine doing that to your little baby. I hear you! Believe me. One thing I did want to add though is that yes, show dogs are caged (some more than others) BUT you can be sure that their health and comfort comes first, and that isn't something that can be said about those poor puppymill dogs. 

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better or not, but this is a pic of my girl Lucy sitting in her cage during the day, when she has the run of the house. She is choosing to sleep in her cage, and my other girl is trying to make her get out so they can play. Lucy has messed her cage up to exactly how she likes it and it's her safe place. When she was spayed, I brought her home, put her down and Lucy immediately retreated to her cage and didn't come out for 24 hrs (and the door was open) 

[attachment=21714:attachment]

Please don't feel like we are attacking you, either. Like you, we are very passionate about our dogs!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I definately think the picture of Lucy in her cage is preferable to this one:

[attachment=21715:attachment]


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> [attachment=21714:attachment][/B]


Oh I HAVE to have those water feeders, i can`t believe they`re pink!!!







Where did you get them?








Oh and Lucy`s retreat looks great


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## Mollys humans (Apr 16, 2007)

> Molly's Humans, please read Hope's story. These are the people you should be angry at.
> 
> http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/Hope.html[/B]


I'm not sure if "angry" describes my feelings......but it's definately pathetic and sad. When I learned that many show dogs spend their life in a cage it saddened me......much the way it does when I read (or watch on the news) about the puppy mills. There's a thread on here bout the groomer/handler who starved some show dogs. I saw a person at the dog show being very rough to a Maltese and it didn't seem to matter that he was surrounded by many, many people. We commented on how we wondered how that dog was treated when nobody was around.

I'm not saying or implying that this applys to all show dog owners. The lady that we spoke to admitted to us that she's not what would be considered a good dog show owner because her dogs are never caged......she's just not that professional with their pets. I think it's sad that one of these dogs has to spend any part of their life in a cage.......wether it's a dog show owner or a puppy mill. Now if we can all unite in getting these dogs out of cages...........

For those who have implied that I've got a less than perfect dog, I'll just say this. Not knowing anything about this breed (like many people who buy a dog.....regardless of the breed) I called University of Calif. Davis Vetranarian School and talked with them about it. I took their advice and asked for a referral to a vet in the area that specializes in dealing with the Maltese breed. In the end, it seems that we have a dog that is in good condition without any health issues and she is definatly loved. But thank you, for all of your concerns.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

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It is unfortunate that you only talked with one person at the dog show, and have now formed opinions. I would suggest you go back to more shows and visit with owners and handlers. You might come away with an entirely different set of facts. 

I agree that we should all ban together to stop anyone who makes a dog live it's life in a cage, whether it be a show dog or a dog from a mill; however, I would hate for anyone reading this post to think that owners of show dogs keep them in cages their entire life, as you stated you learned (your first paragraph above). A dog that is getting ready for show/being shown is limited in their lifestyle for only a short period of their life, unlike those who live in the horrible cages of the puppymills. Some of those dogs never have the option of running free, snuggling in the owner's bed, or just having quality food. A show dog lives in the comfort of a home with care and attention, where they have air conditioning and heat; not in the open fields or caged in a barn where feces from the ones above drop onto their cage. 

I think it is great that you have had your dog checked out by a qualified vet. I assume by your doing this that you had extensive blood work done and had the patellas checked out. I wish you many happy years with your Molly.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

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If your dog is free of genetic issues that will cause problems for you in the future, consider yourself very fortunate. The careful breeding of the show breeders in your dog's pedigree gives Molly a slightly higher chance than normal to remain healthy than the average puppymill dog. 

This is obviously a situation where you will not see anything other than what you want to see. You are criticizing anyboy who crates their dogs as well, just because it's not something you don't feel good about doing. I don't think I am the only one who is frustrated by that either. 

A lot of people on ths forum got their dogs from pet stores. I was almost one of them. The difference is that they learned a few things upon joining this forum, and I don't see that happening in your case. A lot of people are paying a very expensive price for that pet store puppy in the form of hefty vet bills., but they sure don't love their dog any less. I'm just lucky that I am not learning from my mistakes right now and the only reason I'm not, is because I lucked out and stumbled upon a puppy from a show breeder. 

The bottom line is that we all love our dogs on this forum. All of us. And we all love each other's dogs, it is what makes this forum so great. I love the fact that you are so obsessed with your dog because I can relate! But we don't go around insulting each other's training/containment methods either, it's just fair to anybody.


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## cruisinpat (Jan 29, 2007)

Oh my! I cannot let Molly see where Lucy lives because she will be so upset that her space is not as big. Hmm, maybe I have to look into getting her a bigger crate since she is not old enough to have the run of the house quite yet - and she may never be.







......................Pat



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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

Well, this thread has gone all over. What my impression of Mollys humans is that she hasn't owed/trained a dog before. 

Crate training is in every dog book I've ever read. I haven't taken an obedience class yet where they didn't crate their own dogs and talk to us about crate training ours. If we put our dogs in a crate it is typically for their SAFETY - be it being left at home alone to chew on the electrical cords (i've lost a few remotes this way) or be it in the car so the dog isn't throw thru the windshield - I know this has happened to people.

Show dogs are loved and played with during grooming sessions, obedience sessions and cuddle in the lap sessions - they just aren't allowed to run crazy in the freshly mowed lawn before a show. I have talked/emailed at least 30 reputable Maltese breeders who show their dogs - and they are crazy about their dogs!! I could adopt a child easier than I could a Maltese Show dog! I know some show dogs who sleep w/their owners, when not sleeping in their crates.

Pet stores get their dogs from Puppymills - find one that says they aren't and ask him to show you the proof. There are no guarantees with health -but I think you are ahead of the game if you go w/a reputable breeder.

You should poll a number of handlers/show people/trainers/and just plain normal folks before condemning everyone for crating their dogs or for showing dogs. You should also talk to your vet and see what they have to say about dog safety.

I wish you the best with your puppy and I hope Molly has great health.

j


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

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Aren't they pretty? Oh and the best thing? THEY DON"T LEAK. Well, the double one is better than the single pink one at not leaking.

I got them here

http://www.dog-bows.com/cgi-bin/TheFinishi...&category=0


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

> We went to the dog show at Cal Expo here in Sacramento this weekend. Our first time to a dog show but we went because Molly came from two Champions.......she made us go.
> 
> We found a small group of Maltese and asked a few questions. One lady told us that she shows a couple of hers but that she's not considered a "professional dog show-er". I asked what she meant by that and she shared a number of things with us. The most prominent being that many of the people showing dogs keep their dogs in cages at home.
> 
> ...


I hear Ya.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> I have to agree with Stacy. Your outrage at show breeders is misplaced. Your anger should be directed at puppy mills which is where your Molly came from.
> 
> I suggest you read these articles and educate yourself about pet store puppies and puppy mills.
> 
> ...


Great links, Marj. Yup, I'm pissed at BYB's, Puppymills and Petstores


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

Hi,

I crate Mia at night sometimes she whimpers when I put her in there but that's because she wants to play more.









I know she feels very safe in there because when she isn't feeling well she goes in her crate by herself. We always leave the crate open and when I am to busy to watch her I put her in the room and she has the option of the crate or the sofa and it's always 50/50 when she doesn't want to be bothered she goes in her crate.


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

> Hi,
> 
> I crate Mia at night sometimes she whimpers when I put her in there but that's because she wants to play more.
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My malt used to like his crate when he was younger. I think he would go in there when he was tired or just wanted to relax.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Hi,
> 
> I crate Mia at night sometimes she whimpers when I put her in there but that's because she wants to play more.
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Your Mia sounds like quite the spoiled princess herself!! Please don't feel like you have to justify or explain your decisions for crating her but thank you for adding your story that Mia is not traumatized by being crated. You shouldn't have been amde to feel like you had to justify it, which is why I think I got so frustrated with the direction this thread went.


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

Gosh, I don't think anyone should feel bad or need to explain why they use a crate. Sometimes it is necessary to protect their pooch. I don't use a crate anymore, but when my little one was younger he slept in one and I always had it out in case he wanted to go in it. Now that he is not a puppy anymore, I don't use a crate, but I sure do keep doors to certain rooms closed and also have areas babygated all for his protection. Also, he is only outside if someone is with him. To me these little ones are a lot like two year olds. I think they need to be supervised, for their own safety.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

LOL ~ Although mine are not crated, I have several different areas for my kids. I had my "Handy-Man", yes, a paid Handy Man, convert my large "walk-in" entry closet into a room for Billy and Henry. It's fabulous!! And they love their "area", especially Henry, he loves it most of all.

While I'm at work, Lulu is gated in my vanity area upstairs. My little ones are ALL safe, and happy.

No big deal at all


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## my baby (Aug 22, 2006)

Snoop loves his crate, we wouldnt be without it. It is always in the sitting room with the door open and most of the day when he isnt playing he is in there sleeping or chewing his toys!!! He even puts himself to bed at 10 oclock if we are staying up late!!!! 
And when we go to wake him in the morning he very often doesnt want to come out!!! (usually because it is some unearthly hour in the morning when the kids have got up!!!!)















If he goes for sleep overs at my mums for playdates with her dogs the crate goes with him!!!


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

<span style="color:#6666CC">While Molly's humans original post was based on show dogs being kept in crates/kennels/playpens and the like, they are leaving out all the "pets" that are confined for portions of the day and during the night.

Many years ago when I was in high school, I showed our families Basenji. I fell in love with dog shows. I also fell in love with the Shih Tzu and saved my paychecks/Christmas gifts (I asked for cash instead of items)/Birthday money for 1 year and purchased a beautiful 5 month old very promising show prospect. For the next 5 months this puppy was put through daily brushing and wrapping. He had his own 4 x 8 living space with a nice bed, tons of toys and his own dishes. When I was home he was my little shadow. I took him everywhere I could. He was my "pet" and I loved him more then I ever thought possible. He was caged in his 4 x 8 living space when I was not home to monitor the play time. (the Basenji loved to grab his top knot and drag him across the carpeted kitchen floor--- talk about freaking out) Was he left out or neglected? Never, he was my world. When and if I ever decide to fulfill my dream of showing Maltese, I will do nothing different then what I do now with my furkids. They are kenneled when no one is home and during the night. It's not cruel. They are safe in their kennels. While I'm at work, I don't have to worry about their safety. I like to use this example when explaining the benefits to kenneling when they are at home alone. What if you have a house fire? During a fire, it is an animals natural instinct to flee and find an underground den to protect them from the fire. In your home, this is usually under a bed. If they are kenneled, they are much easier for fire fighters to find and get them to safety. 

As I type this, Piper has her kennel next me and her super nice plush bed on the other side of me. Guess where she is sleeping. The door to her kennel is left open when I am home and she prefers the comfort of her kennel to her super nice plush bed. If something frightens her, she runs to her kennel for safety. Katie has her own kennel and her own bed in the living room. She is 16.5 years old, deaf and nearly 100% blind. At this very moment she is sleeping peacefully in her kennel with the door open. While she is confined to it when we are gone, SHE chooses to sleep in it when we are home. It is hers and she knows she is safe there. The other 3 dogs (2 Aust Sheps and a Pug) all have their own kennels as well.

My point is, crating is not cruel when it is done properly and for the right reasons. Showing dogs is important to each and every breed to keep them within breed standards. Without them, we may be taken over by 25 pound Maltese who no longer capture the look of these wonderful dogs that we all love so dearly. I can only speak for myself but the first thing I notice when I look at a Maltese, whether it be a show dog or a "pet", is their coat followed by the face. If show dogs were allowed to be a "normal" pet at all times, they would lose what I'm sure attracted almost everyone here to the breed in the first place ----- that gorgeous long flowing coat that makes them appear to float in air. Show dogs are not less loved, spoiled or pampered just because they are confined for periods of time. 

I am sorry to have rambled on but I stand behind crate training/safety first. It is the puppy millers and the BYB's who need to be talked to on the use of "cages".</span>


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Kim, you put it so well.

"Without them [show breeders], we may be taken over by 25 pound Maltese who no longer capture the look of these wonderful dogs that we all love so dearly. "

I think Mollys Humans, being new to Maltese and I suspect purebred dogs, doesn't understand that without show breeders who strive for the a dog who is the perfect example of the breed standard and has them judged against against others in the ring before breeding them, Maltese will stop being Maltese.

It's the puppy mills who supply the pet shops and the backyard breeders who threaten the breed. It's pretty easy to look a at Maltese and tell if it's well bred or not.

Perhaps if Mollys Humans ends up with a Maltese who weighs twelve pounds and has a curly coat and a long snout, like so many pet shop puppies do, she will understand what we are trying to say.


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## Mollys humans (Apr 16, 2007)

> Kim, you put it so well.
> 
> "Without them [show breeders], we may be taken over by 25 pound Maltese who no longer capture the look of these wonderful dogs that we all love so dearly. "
> 
> ...



You may have some valid points. After all, Molly came from what many are referring to as a puppy mill.......although that would be an assumption on everybody's part since nobody knows much about Molly except that I got her at a pet store.

I'll add that while they may be a puppy mill, they also show dogs. Molly came from a show line and both the grandparents, sire and dam, are champions. There web site also reflects that they have other champions, too. I guess they would be one of those owners whose dogs spend their life in cages.......who knows.

I've obviously touched on a very senative subject here. Let me just say that I did not intend to offend anybody here on this forum and if I have, I am sorry. 

Let me go on to say that in the issue of concern that I raised, I'm not referring to anybody with some form of cage that has the door open all the time and the pet can enter or leave at will, much like a dog house. To be clear, my concern would be for those that are locked up all the time. I apologise for any misunderstanding on that.

I've posted photos of Molly in my gallery.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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I just want to clarify something... it is very likely that the kennel that bred Molly's grandparents sold them to the mill. We have heard rumors here on SM about that happening.... It is heartbreaking to think that a breeder would do that, but apparently they do. It is very unlikely that any real breeder would sell to a pet store. One reason is that most pet stores would rather buy from one place than many. They wouldn't want to deal with a lot of independent breeders. Just transporting the puppies would take away too much of everyone's profits. 

Most pet stores buy from a broker such as The Hunte Corporation. One of the largest brokers in the U.S. and one that supplies pets to Petland. They are in Missouri... conveniently located right in the mill capital of the U.S. The mills sell the puppies to Hunte who then cleans them up, etc. and trucks them in to the pet stores. Petland has a sign up in their store... at least they did about 5 years ago, the last time I was in that awful place .... that says that they absolutely do not buy from puppymills. What a bunch of bull. They buy from a broker who buys from puppymills.









It's all so very, very, very sad....









http://www.thehuntecorporation.com/New%20Facility.aspx


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

K&C's Mom is right. Puppy mills don't show their dogs. They do, however, often get old dogs with nice pedigrees at auctions.

Please know that your Molly did come from a puppy mill. Statisics show that 99.9% of pet shop puppies come from puppy mills.

Happy B posted this awhile back. I hope she doesn't mind me reposting it.

Puppies for sale: Pet shop brokers head to Holmes 


T-R photos/Jim Cummings
Puppy 151 waits to go to auction at Buckeye Dog Auction as the auction is under way outside the door. 



By ZACH LINT,T-R Staff Writer 



BERLIN – If it weren’t for the incessant yelping of 313 dogs who were confined in stacked cages in a room closed off to the auction block, it may have appeared to an outsider as just another run-of-the-mill day at the Amish Flea Market.

In the last year-and-a-half, the Buckeye Dog Auction has grown into anything but run-of-the-mill.

Some breeds are able to fetch more than a few thousand dollars, while others can net hundreds of dollars for the seller.

The auction and the subsequent success of local breeders has convinced others to forsake Bessie for Fido. Apparently, there’s more money in dogs than cattle.

Meanwhile, Pam Maurer of New Philadelphia is outraged about the proliferation of what she calls “puppy mills” in Holmes County.

“I have sleepless nights because of it,” Maurer said last week. 

“I can’t stand what’s going on, and so little can be done.

“There are legitimate breeders out there and there are others who treat them like livestock or something other than the pet or companion animal that they are meant to be.”

In a Reader’s Viewpoint published in September, Maurer pointed to the more than 400 licensed kennels in Holmes County and criticized the breeders for raising large numbers of puppies for profit in cramped, unsanitary quarters hidden from the public’s view.

But Ervin Raber of Millersburg doesn’t see it quite like that. 

Raber is the co-founder of the Buckeye Dog Auction. He also runs a large kennel with about 50 breeding females and 12 male studs.

His operation has been inspected and even the president of the Holmes County Humane Society, Karole Butler, gave it high marks. 

“Puppy millers – that’s a big controversy going on right now,” Raber said. “I am currently the president of the Ohio Pro Dog Breeders Assn. and in our opinion there is no such thing as a puppy mill.”

Raber said some of the opposition facing the dog breeding business comes from people who believe that every dog should be born in somebody’s kitchen and raised in their backyard.

“The thing that they understand the least is that these kennel dogs were born and raised in a kennel environment,” he said. 

“They have never been a house pet, so it’s not stressful for them to be confined among 20 others and be used as breeding stock.”

Many local breeders look to the Buckeye Dog Auction as an opportunity to improve their stock and turn a quick profit.

The auction house takes in a $10 registration fee for every dog to go on the block and a 10 percent commission on the sale. Raber said mixed breeds will sell for as little as $25 while a purebred female Cavalier King Charles Spaniel might sell for more than $5,000.

“It takes a special license from the state of Ohio and we go through an auction firm for our auction license,” Raber said. “I have nothing to hide.”

Buyers can look over the dogs prior to the start of the auction and can compare registered tag numbers to the ones listed in the auction’s catalogue.

“Every animal is vet-inspected on premises and anything AKC (American Kennel Club) -registered also is inspected at the time,” Raber said. “We have four eyeballs watching us from every direction to make sure we do things right.” 

The auction at Berlin came about after Raber and his son made several trips to a similar one in Missouri when they began their breeding business. Breeders from New York, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Indiana frequent the auction since Raber started it at Berlin nearly two years ago.

The upcoming two-day auction starting Nov. 25 promises to be one of Raber’s largest of the year.

“We usually sell 150 top dogs on Friday and another 250 on Saturday,” Raber said. “The top dogs have to have all their shots and meet some stricter requirements.”

Raber said he tries to hold about 10 auctions per year.

The auction group and OPDBA sponsor seminars for area breeders to learn how to improve kennel conditions and breed quality. One lecture featured a friend of Raber’s who houses more than 2,000 dogs in his Missouri kennel. 

“We have a representative from the Hunt Corp., biggest broker in the states, coming to be introduced to breeders,” Raber said of an upcoming seminar on Nov. 17.

“We need to keep new blood pumped in as it grows and we need new avenues for it.”

Raber said the meeting should expose bigger and better business opportunities for area breeders. 

“That’s the hub of the business – to produce puppies and sell them at 8 weeks old to brokers or pet shops,” he said.

Raber said he likes dealing with pet shop brokers.

“It’s a cut and dry thing,” he said. “They give you a check and you never hear back from them.

“It’s not a thing where Tammy Johnson’s dog in Cleveland got a heart murmur and wants you to pay for it. If there is a problem with a pup we do have to replace it.”

Raber and his colleagues do fear backlash from animal rights groups.

“There were situations that needed help and we’ve cleared a lot of that up already in the last two years,” Raber said. “The days of stacking cages on top of one another and having feces fall to the lower dogs are gone.”

Other breeders who attended Raber’s auction in mid-October said they feared fanatical “rescue groups” and didn’t want to go on the record.

“In the past, not so much here, but in Pennsylvania and Missouri and some areas, (rescue groups) have taken dogs and been real nasty,” Raber said. 

“That’s the reason I run the auction through a post office box in Walnut Creek.”

Holmes County Dog Warden Joe Patterson said complaints about puppy breeders are down this year and credited an agent from the U.S. Department of Agriculture for helping to inspect kennels over the last two years.

“I don’t care much about what people think in our county, but if it wasn’t for this agent we’d be in worse shape than we are now,” he said, adding that he used to get frequent complaint calls from tourists who saw what they thought was mistreatment of an animal when they went on a tour of an Amish farm. 

But over the last year, Patterson said the number of complaint calls has dropped off despite the spike in the number of kennel licenses.

“These kennel operators are getting to the point where they know how to go out around the public eye,” he said. “They have the pet store people come directly to them to buy whatever dogs they need at their pet stores.”

Patterson said he’s even heard of cases where the Internet is starting to be used by local breeders.

Holmes County Humane Society President Karole Butler said she’s seen enough to be concerned.

“The community knows little of the problem in this county,” Butler said. “We actually get more e-mails from tourists who come and see signs and pet shops with the ‘Amish puppies for sale.’”

She said Ohio only has two USDA kennel inspectors.

Butler said when she tells local residents that there are more than 400 kennels scattered throughout Holmes County, they are astonished.

“It is a well hidden practice and you only see the cute little puppy side of it,” she said.

Tuscarawas County Dog Warden Karen Slough can relate.

“If they’re just cranking out the puppies and that’s how they’re mistreating them, there’s not much we can do,” Slough said. “Sometimes what’s legal and what’s ethical is not always the same thing.”

There is no limit on the number of dogs a kennel can have and there are loose requirements on how cages must be maintained.

“The law addresses food, water and shelter, but there are degrees of abuse and neglect,” she said. 




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Copyright ©2006 The Times Reporter
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## Mollys humans (Apr 16, 2007)

Again, assumptions. I have never said that Molly came from a puppy mill (although that may be the case). We have Molly's AKC registration. The kennel where Molly came from has several lines of champions and show dogs on their ego web site. Is it a puppy mill or a breeder.....call it what you will.

Petland (and several other pet stores here in the Sacramento area) were closed down a couple of years ago. Molly was bought at an independant pet store. With the paperwork that came with Molly (her linage back several generations, vet visits, shots, etc.) and us viewing the web site and talking to them on the phone coupled with the nine months we've had her, we're confident that we have a great dog. Will she compare with some of the dogs on here? You may think not however, we do.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Thanks Marj, for reposting that information. One of the rescue groups I am on sends out some pretty scary information about the auctions they attend.

I do believe that Molly's Humans does have the same concern that we all do in regard to abuse of animals. And, I think we would all agree that a dog who is confined to a cage for it's entire life is abused, regardless of who owns it.

As I have a very strong interest in studying pedigrees, I often learn some very interesting things. For instance, we have a lengthy thread here on the pedigrees of our dogs. Someone brought that up within the past week or so. There are people who posted who bought their dogs from pet stores or brokers. There are champions in these dogs. If you go back within those pedigrees, you can see how a champion was bred to an unknown dog, then in the next generation there are two more unknown names. There are some big names there too. So, what has happened is that either the person who owned the champion was snookered (as some are), or they sold/bred their dog knowing the lines were not going to be protected through responsible breeding. I think the one that caught my attention the other day was the pedigree posted in that thread by "Dr. Cathy". I'm sure there are others just like that which show well known lines bred into what was later a dog that was sold by a broker.

Perhaps Molly will share her dog's pedigree with us. By doing so, perhaps we can tell her what we know about the champions in her dog's pedigree. And, since Molly's Humans have information about the breeder's website, I know it will be of interest to a number of us. There might even be feedback that we could share with her about her dog's lines/breeder.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> Again, assumptions. I have never said that Molly came from a puppy mill (although that may be the case). We have Molly's AKC registration. The kennel where Molly came from has several lines of champions and show dogs on their ego web site. Is it a puppy mill or a breeder.....call it what you will.
> 
> Petland (and several other pet stores here in the Sacramento area) were closed down a couple of years ago. Molly was bought at an independant pet store. With the paperwork that came with Molly (her linage back several generations, vet visits, shots, etc.) and us viewing the web site and talking to them on the phone coupled with the nine months we've had her, we're confident that we have a great dog. Will she compare with some of the dogs on here? You may think not however, we do.[/B]


i don't think you understand what we are trying to say....

_responsible breeders, NO MATTER WHAT, do NOT sell to PETSTORES. _ 

the term puppy mill is usually described as an inhumane, cruel, unsanitary facility that forces animals to breed for profit. 

i agree to a degree...however, in my opinion, the run of the mill puppy mill who chooses to breed hundreds of dogs, or the typical back yard breeder who only keeps a couple dogs, breeds, does not breed for the betterment of the breed and only sells the puppies for profit are both categorized as puppy mills. 

most puppy mill puppies are sold to something called a "puppy broker". a broker is an "organization" who purchases their "stock" at puppy mills and live auctions and in turn sell them to pet stores and/or people for a very large profit. they boast what a kind and caring "organization" they are and how it's their objective to place the perfect, healthy puppy with the perfect, loving home. in fact, they are just placing the substandard puppy mill "stock" to anyone who will buy them. most times resulting in diseased, sickly puppies being sold to unsuspecting buyers. 

no matter what pet stores may say, quality breeders NEVER sell their puppies to pet stores nor will they EVER advertise in the local post. 
*a quality breeder normally has a long and select waiting list for perspective homes.*

having a "poorly bred" maltese myself, i may be a little too passionate about this topic. but if you have seen or had to LIVE with and illness like the illness that causes myself a terrible amount of heartache and my dog to suffer, then maybe you would understand. 

oh, and one more thing.... somewhere in EVERY dog's pedigree there is a CH.... that does not necessarily mean the products of products are free from faults or illnesses. (massimo's grandparents were both CHs)

-carrie

oh...and to keep this thread on topic, here is a picture of mini, when she was a puppy, in her kennel... which she voluntarily went into to relax on her bed and chew on something appropriate....the door was open.








[attachment=21778:attachment]


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

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When I first responded to this thread I was referring to this first post. Without getting into details, there are Some show dogs that I feel sorry for. I do have the right to feel this way.

Now that people are talking about puppymills, I would like to add people need to educate people on how awful those places are. No living being should be forced to live in such deplorable conditions. I have a general rule here in my home. That is to NOT buy anything from stores that sell dogs and cats. Not even a ball or toy. Its sad, but as time goes by I have less places to shop around here. Some stores that didn't sell animals a year ago I see sell them now.









Molly's humans- Its wonderful that you love Molly as much as you do. She is lucky to have the full time job taking care of her two humans and to be loved. Please don't let anyone make you feel that she is not a great dog, she sounds special to me.


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## Jacki (Jul 13, 2006)

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Exactly!







Carrie, you put into words exactly what I was trying to figure out how to write!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

If you don't want to believe us, will you believe the Humane Society of the United States?

The Pet Store Link 

The HSUS strongly opposes the sale, through pet shops and similar outlets, of puppies and dogs from mass-breeding establishments. Puppy-mill dogs are the "inventory" of these retail operations. Statistics from the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council (PIJAC) indicate that approximately 3,500 to 3,700 of the 11,500 to 12,000 U.S. pet stores sell cats and dogs. PIJAC also estimates that pet stores sell 300,000 to 400,000 puppies every year. The HSUS estimates the number to be 500,000. 

Purebreed registration papers only state the recorded lineage of a dog. Accuracy of the reported lineage cannot be guaranteed. The American Kennel Club (AKC), the most widely recognized purebred dog registry, readily notes that it "is not itself involved in the sale of dogs and cannot therefore guarantee the health and quality of dogs in its registry." Clearly, it is "buyer beware." 

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_...ills/index.html

You can find out exactly where Molly really came from here. They will research it for free.

http://www.petshoppuppies.com/


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

This discussion has morphed into several different topics from the original post, but the info is very interesting. Aside from the discussion about show dogs and caging, etc. I think it is noteworthy that Molly came from an independent pet store, but has champion parents and grandparents. Could we have a "good" breeder who sells to pet stores? The reality may be that sometimes breeders that we think of as ethical, may, in fact, be doing things that the maltese community wouldn't necessarily condone......A very interesting and thought provoking situation. I can see where a breeder might be snookered and the grandparents in a pet store puppy might be champions, but if the parents are also champions then that is another matter altogether.....


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> This discussion has morphed into several different topics from the original post, but the info is very interesting. Aside from the discussion about show dogs and caging, etc. I think it is noteworthy that Molly came from an independent pet store, but has champion parents and grandparents. Could we have a "good" breeder who sells to pet stores? The reality may be that sometimes breeders that we think of as ethical, may, in fact, be doing things that the maltese community wouldn't necessarily condone......A very interesting and thought provoking situation. I can see where a breeder might be snookered and the grandparents in a pet store puppy might be champions, but if the parents are also champions then that is another matter altogether.....[/B]


Susan, I think the OP said that it was the grandparents who were champions. Unless I missed something . . .


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> This discussion has morphed into several different topics from the original post, but the info is very interesting. Aside from the discussion about show dogs and caging, etc. I think it is noteworthy that Molly came from an independent pet store, but has champion parents and grandparents. Could we have a "good" breeder who sells to pet stores? The reality may be that sometimes breeders that we think of as ethical, may, in fact, be doing things that the maltese community wouldn't necessarily condone......A very interesting and thought provoking situation. I can see where a breeder might be snookered and the grandparents in a pet store puppy might be champions, but if the parents are also champions then that is another matter altogether.....[/B]



I can't see how any breeder who loves thier dogs would want anyone else to make the decision as to who gets their pups. If a breeder were to place pups with someone in a setting such as this independent petstore, then, it seems that the screening becomes the responsibility of the petshop, and not the breeder. 

I hope that Molly will post the breeder of her pup. This will give a lot more information about its origin.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

If Molly's owner decides to research where she came from through the link I provided, she'll know for sure where she came from.

Remember we just had a discussion about this awhile back about Piper's lineage? Both Piper's parents came from pet stores, but there were some nice dogs on the father's side.

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...amp;hl=auctions

As Faye has told us several times, some really nice dogs sadly end up being bred to death in puppy mills in their later years.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

> Susan, I think the OP said that it was the grandparents who were champions. Unless I missed something . . .[/B]


Yes, Sher, I see that now. I was confused by this statement, "Molly came from a show line and both the grandparents, sire and dam, are champions." I realize now that she was only referring to the grandparents and not the sire and dam of the pup.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> Again, assumptions. I have never said that Molly came from a puppy mill (although that may be the case). We have Molly's AKC registration. * The kennel where Molly came from has several lines of champions and show dogs on their ego web site. * Is it a puppy mill or a breeder.....call it what you will.
> 
> Petland (and several other pet stores here in the Sacramento area) were closed down a couple of years ago. Molly was bought at an independant pet store. With the paperwork that came with Molly (her linage back several generations, vet visits, shots, etc.) and us viewing the web site and talking to them on the phone coupled with the nine months we've had her, we're confident that we have a great dog. Will she compare with some of the dogs on here? You may think not however, we do.[/B]



Ego website?























And for the record, we know what you were talking about with cages/crates that had doors that were closed at some point during the day. I posted the pic of the open door and my dog sitting in her bed to demonstate that she LIKES her cage and chooses to go in and sleep in it when she doesn't 'have' to. The door is closed at night or any time when I want to make sure she is safe. Typically, she doesn't even get up when I open the door in the morning, she is too comfy in her bed. 

I'll also say again that for someone who has such contempt for show dogs, you sure seem to like bragging about the champions in Molly's pedigree.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

It's not just in later years. Some of these dogs are sold quite young. I know of one very well known breeder who was "snookered" just last year. She now has a champion living in a mill where two or three hundred dogs are raised in a "chicken house" type situation. She thought she was selling to someone who planned to show, and she was helping them with their start. 

I don't know if we can call this a positive or not, but the mills go more for the males than females. This way, he can sire a number of litters and put that pedigree on them. If a mill obtains a female, she is limited to producing far less puppies for them.


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

> It's not just in later years. Some of these dogs are sold quite young. I know of one very well known breeder who was "snookered" just last year. She now has a champion living in a mill where two or three hundred dogs are raised in a "chicken house" type situation. She thought she was selling to someone who planned to show, and she was helping them with their start.[/B]


What a Sad, Horrible Disappointment for that Dog and for all the Poor Dogs living in the mills.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> It's not just in later years. Some of these dogs are sold quite young. I know of one very well known breeder who was "snookered" just last year. She now has a champion living in a mill where two or three hundred dogs are raised in a "chicken house" type situation. She thought she was selling to someone who planned to show, and she was helping them with their start.
> 
> I don't know if we can call this a positive or not, but the mills go more for the males than females. This way, he can sire a number of litters and put that pedigree on them. If a mill obtains a female, she is limited to producing far less puppies for them.[/B]


OMG!!! This makes me sick. 

Faye ~ Would a strongly worded contract eliminate this??


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=366200
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A contract would help if the breeder would enforce it. Since it only takes one signature on the paperwork for the male, the new owner can breed him from the day he/she acquires him, if they so choose. 

In the case of a female, there is a safety factor there because if there are co-owners, then both parties have to sign the paperwork before a litter can be registered.

Then, we have those who will sell the dogs to one breeder without control of where it goes, and they use it and pass it on to another. Or, I know of one situation with a Westie where one breeder got mad at another and sold a champion to a puppymill so that the other breeder's kennel name would be on the papers there.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=366220
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> 
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This is CRAZY!!! Could be a movie of the week.


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## Deanna (Jan 14, 2005)

> Then, we have those who will sell the dogs to one breeder without control of where it goes, and they use it and pass it on to another.[/B]


This is what happened to my little Wilson. Over the past year and a half I have been doing some research trying to figure out where he came from. 

It turns out that he is from a well known breeder in Canada. She sold him to an up and coming breeder. This new breeder either didn't know what she was doing or Wilson didn't know what _he_ was doing, and no breeding took place. This new breeder was mad and wanted to unload this "dud" so she put _an ad in the paper!_ and sold him to some backyard breeder. Same thing happened- Wilson wouldn't breed so that BYB sold him to _another_ breeder- a breeder of poodles who had decided to get into the designer dog business and make Malti-poos. Well once again Wilson didn't perform, so she ignored him- shoved him into a teeny tiny dog run, let the mean poodles attack him, fed him food that was too big for him to chew, never got him his shots, or health checks, never got his retained baby teeth pulled, didn't brush him, yelled at him, etc. So when my friend was researching show poodle groomers, she happened on to this woman- and went to meet her. She was of course horrified by this woman, but when my friend saw Wilson she knew I wanted a Maltese and knew we had to get him out of there. So I took my little boy home- he had kennel cough, two eye infections, two ear infections, was more than 1 lb under weight, had a mouth full of decaying retained baby teeth, and decayed adult teeth. 

When I finally tracked down Wilson's breeder she was so pleased to hear from me, and told me she had been on vacation when the person she sold Wilson to had called demanding a refund. Wilson's breeder of course would have taken him back- but the new breeder didn't wait for her to return from vacation and sold him! Wilson's breeder said she had cried over it and wondered what had happened to him. I am thankful he ended up with a BYB and not a puppymill. I am sure if he had ended up in a puppy mill he would have been killed for not breeding. 

Dogs with a good pedigree DO end up in the wrong hands sometimes.

I have been reading this thread and can't help but chuckle a little bit. It seems this is a case of someone having a little bit of knowledge, but not the whole story. Just because a dog has a good pedigree, doesn't mean they don't come from a puppy mill. That puppy mill some how managed to get their dirty hands on a well bred dog and used it. I have never heard of a _real_ breeder letting their dogs be sold in a pet store. Any decent breeder wants to screen the prospective owners, and not to mention the horrible conditions and treatment of animals in a pet store. 

Mollyshumans you may not have intended to offend people- but by lumping all show dogs/handlers/breeders into a catagory of abusers- and having reached that decision from speaking to ONE person, is offensive. *A show dog can't be kept in a cage ALL the time- they HAVE to be well trained, well socialized, and in good mental/physical/emotional health- or they would not do well in a show ring! * If a dog is kept in a acage all the time they are skittish, unhealthy, scared of people, agressive or over submissive- none of those things describe what a show dog is. 

I hope that you will read this board, and all the links provided. There are so many people on this board who have been in the dog world for a long time. These people LOVE animals, want to make sure that all animals have a good life, and want to help us all be better parents to our furkids. 

We honestly don't care if Molly is a pedigree or not, what matters is you have her now and love her. What we hope to accomplish is convince you that buying from a pet store is wrong, and why (it supports puppy mills), so that in the future you will not support such a place and will make sure to spread the word of the puppy mill- pet store connection to your friends and family. The ONLY way puppy mills will be stopped is if they quit making money. It is up to each of us to make sure that happens.


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

Well said Deanna! I'm so happy you have Wilson now!


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## Critterkrazy (Jan 17, 2007)

> Thanks Marj, for reposting that information. One of the rescue groups I am on sends out some pretty scary information about the auctions they attend.
> 
> I do believe that Molly's Humans does have the same concern that we all do in regard to abuse of animals. And, I think we would all agree that a dog who is confined to a cage for it's entire life is abused, regardless of who owns it.
> 
> ...


Faye, you have summed up my Piper's pedigree. I posted last month about researching Piper's lineage. I pulled her parents pedigrees from the AKC website and was very shocked to find 26 champions listed within her daddy's 5 generation pedigree. After further research on the 5th generation I was able to add 16 more to that list. She has some very old prominant bloodlines in her. Heres that sad part, both her parents were purchased from petshops. I questioned how responsible breeders had dogs end up in puppy mills. It makes sense to me now. Anyone can lie and money talks. The bonus for her is that she does have some good breeding in her which, I'm guessing, is why she has no luxating patellas, has a very nice silky coat with little to no matting, dark pigment and for now a nice bite. She is, however, long in the body, has a bit longer muzzle, her tail is set a smidge to low and her eyes look to small in comparison to her head. 

I have gotten into this researching her pedigree (sometimes a little too much.) Molly's humans, would you be willing to share her pedigree or kennel's website with us? If they are show people, maybe some of us have already heard of them or have viewed their website.


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## starry (Sep 4, 2006)

> > This is what happened to my little Wilson. Over the past year and a half I have been doing some research trying to figure out where he came from.
> >
> > It turns out that he is from a well known breeder in Canada. She sold him to an up and coming breeder. This new breeder either didn't know what she was doing or Wilson didn't know what _he_ was doing, and no breeding took place. This new breeder was mad and wanted to unload this "dud" so she put _an ad in the paper!_ and sold him to some backyard breeder. Same thing happened- Wilson wouldn't breed so that BYB sold him to _another_ breeder- a breeder of poodles who had decided to get into the designer dog business and make Malti-poos. Well once again Wilson didn't perform, so she ignored him- shoved him into a teeny tiny dog run, let the mean poodles attack him, fed him food that was too big for him to chew, never got him his shots, or health checks, never got his retained baby teeth pulled, didn't brush him, yelled at him, etc. So when my friend was researching show poodle groomers, she happened on to this woman- and went to meet her. She was of course horrified by this woman, but when my friend saw Wilson she knew I wanted a Maltese and knew we had to get him out of there. So I took my little boy home- he had kennel cough, two eye infections, two ear infections, was more than 1 lb under weight, had a mouth full of decaying retained baby teeth, and decayed adult teeth.
> >
> ...


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## Deanna (Jan 14, 2005)

> Deanna,
> How long of a vacation was the original breeder on?!!!
> Seems to me if you did ALL THAT research (
> 
> ...












She was on a 2 week vacation. The new breeder she had sold Wilson to avoided her- because by selling Wilson she was in violation of her contract. I know she looked... and I do believe she was really upset.


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## jadey (Nov 2, 2006)

Deanne Im so glad Wilson has you now


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=366127
> 
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I LOVE looking at pedigrees! And then looking up the dogs in those pedigrees. I've learned sooooo much from them! 

Molly mom, I hope that you will share Molly's pedigree also.


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## starry (Sep 4, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=366457
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Oh I see.
I m glad she had that type of contract, which sounds like she's really sincere then. Good for her.
I am so glad it has all worked out.


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## Mollys humans (Apr 16, 2007)

> I definately think the picture of Lucy in her cage is preferable to this one:
> 
> [attachment=21715:attachment][/B]



This photo depicts what I'm talking about. 

In my original post, I could have worded it a little clearer. But when the lady told me that many of the show dogs spend their life in cages I pictured in my mind something more like what this picture depicts.

Those who use a cage for the dogs "house" and the dog has freedom to enter or exit throughout the day is not what I would have an issue with. Actually some of the photos seem to depict a nice environment and if a dog goes in on his or her own, then it can't be that bad. Again, I'm referring to those that are kept in a cage and don't have the freedom to get out for more than a few minutes or a very limited amount of time.

At this home, Molly has a bed up on the fireplace hearth where she spends about half her time. When it's hot out, she'll often lay directly on the tile. She's also demanded that we get a set of stairs so that she can get up on our bed at will...........and yes, she has her own Temperpedic pillow. But I promise that she's not spoiled. LOL


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## CathyB (Mar 10, 2007)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=366220
> 
> 
> 
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A stiff contract is only good if the court system will enforce them. In Indiana most of the cases you hear about that a breeder had to take someone to court for not holding up their end of the contract does not go in the breeders favor.. I think AKC needs to require both signatures on Sire breeding as well as the Dam if dogs are co~owned. That way if someone bred the male and it was not approved by both the puppies would not and could not be registered.. JMO


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## lonestar (Dec 21, 2004)

I'm glad he has found love and a forever home.


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