# Izzy and I need help ASAP



## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Izzy


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

What should I do if I suspect my dog has Rage Syndrome?
It is important to remember that true Rage Syndrome is very rare. Concerned owners should consult their Veterinary Surgeon & ask for their dog's case to be referred to an experienced behaviourist who can determine if the dog is in fact suffering from Rage or has some other type of aggression problem


Can Rage Syndrome be treated successfully 
Each case requires individual attention and what is prescribed for one dog may not work for another. Some treatments that have been recommended and tried are: change of diet, the use of d-amphetamine, vitamin B12 therapy, Oculucidon, neutering and progestagen therapy, anticonvulsants and behaviour modification techniques aimed at changing the dominance status of owners.

This is from the following website:

http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/whatisrage.htm


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Izzy


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## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

Have you called those dog trainers I list on the other thread?


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Izzy


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## Baxter and Wally's Mom (Aug 18, 2005)

> Yes, I had already read every word on that site. There's a study being done, and I have put in an application to have Izzy accessed. I am in the process of making some calls, and yes, the rage syndrome is rare, as is an albino. If there is a medication that could help Izzy, I want her on it! I truly do not think this is, in any way, a dominance issue, or a behavioral issue. It has been a difficult battle to find help for Izzy, because with her history of of so many medical problems, I receive the "why bother?" attitude. Yes, I could have sent her back to that awful breeder for a refund or I could have had her euthanized as a puppy, but I chose to love her, and have been blessed, with the joy of sharing my life with her, for over 2 years.
> 
> I have been racked with guilt so many times, that maybe I am fighting so hard, because I can't imagine my life without her. Izzy is my first puppy ever and I love her beyond words. I know that she isn't suffering, and the minute these "fits" are over, she's back to herself....which is a gentle, loving Izzy. The prozac has helped with her fear aggression and is also a drug used for rage syndrome.
> 
> ...


Some of us have gotten, shall I say childish PM's, which I choose to ignore, buy I can't imagine anyone would PM you scolding you for NOT "putting her down???" My goodness, I think everyone is thankful for one more puppy being loved through "better or worse!"


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Izzy


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## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

Well, I am sorry if I missed something here, but I think that it is commendable that you are trying everything that you can for your little furbaby!!



I am also sorry that I can't help you on your search for an answer as this is the first time I am hearing of this ailment....see we learn something new everyday!



Keep up the good work!!



Marie & Pacino


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Nonny ..don't have any info regarding the rage aggression.. but can give a bit of info on "general" aggressions
I some cases of rescues ( these were all jack russels) one that became more and more aggressive over time. After many training sessions and various approaches to behavior modification.. it turned out it was a thyroid issue... medication for that made all the difference. 
Another, choose some of the essences like from the Bach line. Rescue Remedy along with a couple of other 
specific ones. ( I'm just thinking you have already investigated this approach and if so.. sorry for repeat) Do want to say... the Bach line does have some alcohol but there are others out there that do not. maybe alone they would not be enough.. but maybe the non-alcohol along with the prozac??. maybe would just make enough of a difference?? I know i may be grasping at straws here...
A third, unfortunately did have some kind of "electrical imbalance" . But Izzy's overall demeanor doesn't line up with that pooch... so hope and pray that is a good sign!


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

What do the vets say regarding this "aggression'? To me it sounds like a

seizure from what you described in your earlier post today. Surely there

is one vet you trust. Some things you cannot treat without a 

professional. We are pet owners for the most part, and something this serious 

cannot be diagnosed by any of us, especially sight unseen...I'm sure even 

Dr. Jaimie would agree with that. I understand your wanting to help her, but you 

cannot do it all by yourself. She sounds like she has serious issues that need

medical attention.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

That's a good point.. ANY suggestions should be discussed with a vet... I guess I was assuming that would be a "given". I have been so involved with pet diabetes and cancer sites.. and we share experiences but we all have the mindset that these are simply suggestions to discuss with vet. We have a big heading on the message board that advises of just that.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Nonny, in some ways my past problems getting help with Frosty's







'RageSyndrome/fear aggression/aggressive behavior' are much like yours with Izzy. In his case he isn't too sick to get help, he's "too old" (he's 14). I've been told by at least one breeder and a couple of vets, I should put him down instead of trying to help him or learn to deal with his 'triggers'. I understand they were thinking of my safety and peace of mind, but he isn't the size of a Rottie after all.







In other words my LIFE isn't in danger. Only my hands. My reply was---"if your child was giving you a hard time, would you try and help him, or have him put to sleep?" That is of course somewhat of an over simplification, but none the less.........I'm sure you get the point.



When these "rage" things started happening, I took Frosty for a long expensive exam and tests and X-rays. I thought...'brain tumor', but nothing showed up except a slightly low thyroid. We tried thyroid for a couple of months with no change, then we tried to medicate him with ACE just to be groomed--that was a disaster. He was 100 times worse. I decided to try Anipryl--it's a MAO inhibitor basically used for senile behavior in dogs. He also has Cushing's symptoms, and it could be used for Cushing's also. It took 2-3 mo. to see any change. He went deaf about the same time so it became hard to communicate with him and deafness caused a lot of change in his behavior and personality. So I began a long road of learning to deal with a completely changed dog. I think he has mellowed out with the rage and fear aggression some, but not a lot. Mostly I've learned more about his triggers and avoid them as much as possible. For instance (though it breaks my heart) I no longer can pick him up without a muzzle. There are no quiet grooming sessions on my lap, or cuddling in my recliner.







He wants to be on the floor and not be handled or we get bit. It is not normal behavior without a doubt. It is different than a naughty spoiled dominant thing. Unless you have known the dog before he changed and experienced the sudden rage spells over a period of time, you would not understand the difference. I admit if he were a larger dog, I would have had to put him down and not spent this last 2 years trying to learn to deal with it. Also if there were small children around him that would make a great deal of difference.



So I feel your pain in wanting to find help. Even the best vet or experienced dog handler doesn't understand. Their help after I refused to give up on Frosty is always the same. "See a behaviorist". I would have to travel 200 miles round trip and transport a dog who hates the car at this point and that experiences extreme stress when taken anywhere and spend a small (or not so small) fortune on a behaviorist. I don't have any faith they could help him. It would take longer than he has left to learn as much as I already know about his problems. If there was a miracle that would give my little buddy back to me to hold and cuddle it would be worth anything I have, but I'm afraid there isn't.







It's a mental thing with him probably stemming from something medical much more than it is a training issue. If he wasn't this age and didn't also have so many age related medical issues I know there would be people willing to help me work on his problem whatever it is.



I don't know much about Izzy other than her albinism and heart surgery. Does she have other medical problems and what rage symptoms have happened so far? All I can do is compare hers with what I've dealt with with Frosty, but I will try to help if I can. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to discuss it here, however, I feel these discussions could help someone else someday.









Dee


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Thank all of you who took the time to respond today. Right now Izzy is beside me, happily watching the puppies play. If you looked at her, you would never believe she can act the way she does. She shows no signs of aggression, until it "happens". The fear aggression I can sometimes understand, but the two times she has turned on me, just happened, with no warning. She has also tried several times to attack Cyndi, whom she loves. I think the prozac has helped, so she will continue on it. 

Of course, I would not give Izzy any medication without a vet's approval, and I have a copy of her files that I carry with me, so her history is always complete. If I had listened to vets, I would not have had Izzy the last two years. I'm only asking for suggestions and information. I keep hoping that there's one more thing I can do to help her. 

Dee, thank you for sharing your story about Frosty. Maybe by us discussing these issues it will help someone else along the way. It's so hard to even describe how she turns from such a loving dog to a frightening dog in a second. And I agree, if she were a larger dog, I would not have any choice. 

I believe that this is some sort of mental problem. This is something that happened AFTER she had that terrible respiratory virus in January. I keep trying to make a connection.

Thank all of you again.....


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Nonny, My heart goes out to you! It is so very hard to have to deal with many of the health issues.. and even harder when you face something you don't know exactly what you are dealing with. 
I pray you'll find an answer that would be "simple" like increasing seratonin levels as they do with 'violent" people. 
God bless you for being so diligent in Izzy's care!


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Rita ~

You are confusing me a bit. Have you made arrangements for a Specialist?


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

I think it is good to get input from people who may experienced a similar thing... or who may find a link to info ( though of course links have to be scrutinized too... but again I feel that is a "given".)
By gathering info, suggestions, etc. often helps when you go to a vet so you have a bit of understanding beforehand and allows for more productive questioning and communication with the vet. 
I know when Missy was dx with diabetes... I knew squat about it.. but did loads of research so I could have somewhat of an understanding of what the disease was and understanding of "new" vocabulary, such as peak/onset/ketones etc. so when we had follow-up visits I could ask "focused" questions plus had better grasp of the information the vet was giving me.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I am sorry for all that you are going through. I know from the beginning of Sassy's problems, even before we had a diagnosis, that a few people (not here) suggested that she would probably have to be put to sleep. This was before we even knew what we were dealing with. I don't blame you one bit for feeling like you have to try every single thing before taking any drastic steps. My friend with the cocker spaniel tried everything she could possibly do. At least, like Dee says, you are dealing with a small dog that has limited ability to cause harm. I am just wondering if she turns on the other dogs? When you aren't there do you leave her someplace that she couldn't hurt the other pups?

Sometimes it takes a few tries to get a vet that you can identify with. I hope you can find someone to help you and Izzy.

PS. I see from an earlier thread that she hasn't been vicious with the other dogs. I'm glad for that.


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

> I am sorry for all that you are going through. I know from the beginning of Sassy's problems, even before we had a diagnosis, that a few people (not here) suggested that she would probably have to be put to sleep. This was before we even knew what we were dealing with. I don't blame you one bit for feeling like you have to try every single thing before taking any drastic steps. My friend with the cocker spaniel tried everything she could possibly do. At least, like Dee says, you are dealing with a small dog that has limited ability to cause harm. I am just wondering if she turns on the other dogs? When you aren't there do you leave her someplace that she couldn't hurt the other pups?
> 
> Sometimes it takes a few tries to get a vet that you can identify with. I hope you can find someone to help you and Izzy.[/B]


She has never turned on Bruiser. When Bruiser is here, he always has places he can away from Izzy. Izzy can't walk on slick surfaces or "do" steps or get on the sofa. Izzy sleeps with me and Bruiser sleeps with my daughter when they are here. Bruiser and Izzy seem to totally love each other, no problems. 

The puppies are in a play yard in the kitchen when we are not home and Izzy cannot get to them. We have been soooo careful with the puppies and Izzy has not shown any aggression toward them, but we are not taking any chances. She watches them, tail wagging. She runs to the pen to check on them, when she hears them. She wakes me at night if she hears them. 

MOST of the time Izzy is sweet and gentle, then she "erupts", then it's over and she's back to Izzy. She has never been a people person and has always snubbed most everyone. The fear aggression, I understand most of the time, and the prozac is helping. 

I'm going to try ONE more vet, just to see if they have some ideas. This will be vet # 9......


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Quote Nonny: "MOST of the time Izzy is sweet and gentle, then she "erupts", then it's over and she's back to Izzy. She has never been a people person and has always snubbed most everyone. "



That sounds exactly like the way it all started with Frosty. It's probably been 2 yrs. ago now.......I was lying on the floor with him about 3 ft. away, he was sleeping. I don't know if I moved or what.....but all of a sudden he lunged right at my face all fangs and eyes like a mad tiger. I threw my hands up and had to fight him off. He bit both hands almost clear through in several places. It was over in an instant and he was checking me over trying to figure out why I was crying. I was not only physically injured, I was shocked and heart broken my sweet baby would do that to me. I was scared to death someone would make me put him to sleep. For the next year of so he did similar attacks on me several times. 3 times I had infected deep puncture wounds. It was like lightening out of nowhere when it happened. In other posts since then I have described how he has progressed since then with using Anipryl and avoiding situations. I don't think he would do the sudden for no reason attacks now, but after suffering a lot of pain-----I'm not taking many chances either!











Nonny, I know how frightening it can be.







If we here at SM can't listen and support you, what are we here for? If you find a vet that you feel understands and will actually be of help--hurray!! I haven't been so lucky. Basically it has come down to "when you get tired of handling the problem, we'll be here to do what is necessary".



It's easy to say go to a behaviorist (if you can even find one anywhere but on the net), but old sick animals don't listen well, especially when they are deaf like Frosty.


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Izzy


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Today Izzy had a long visit with another VERY reputable vet. It was surprising that he had already heard of Izzy! He did a full history and an exam. Thank all of you for your help, because I had enough background and information, that I understood most of his questions and had an understanding of some possibilities. Izzy was well-mannered and allowed him to draw blood from her neck. She didn't like it, but he also plucked the hair from her ears. (She has always hated having her ears touched.) She showed no hint of aggression, which did not surprise me! She did turn her head, at every person who spoke to her. That is the Izzy-tude!

Again, I got the "talk" that it was evident that I had done everything I could to take care of Izzy, and ......maybe someday, but not today.

He thought the first thing that we should check was her thyroid function, which we should get the results back on Saturday. At this point if the thyroid levels are abnormal, that would be good news, because that's only 2 pills a day forever (and I'm on the same drug forever too). That would be a simple explanation for Izzy's grumpiness and aggression. But I also know that the fear of a movement (due to lack of sight) sparks some of her aggression. She also has an enlarged liver.

Some of her health problems, such as her eyesight, could be attributed to the albino features.

IF the labs come back normal, there are other possibilites. He thinks that this is a BRAIN issue, not a training issue. There is a possibility that her brain does not get enough oxygen because of her extremely enlarged heart. She constantly pants and can't endure being too warm.

Since she has shown some progress while taking the prozac, we will increase it to 2 times a day. In his opinion this is a problem inside her brain, a problem that she has no control over. It's my obligation as Izzy's Nonny, to make sure she does not have an opportunity to hurt a child, another dog, or a person.

We also discussed her luxtating patellas. Izzy already knows it hurts to walk on slick floors, so she won't be walking on any slick surfaces. She has never gone up or down steps or jumped off the sofa or bed, so no problem to solve there. She will not be able to have surgery. She has not walked since the exam of her legs. (Hmmmm we were going to discuss medications for her legs, but forgot.)

I will not be taking Izzy to a behaviorist. We will be treating this as a medical condition involving her brain. Keep in mind, that most of the time Izzy is sweet and loving, exactly the Izzy you see in her picture. Most of the time, she lays quietly watching over her "kingdom". Her favorite place is on my lap. When she "erupts" it's not Izzy.

I may have to....but not today.....no.....not today.


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## ddarlingfam (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm so sorry you have to go through so much with Izzy. She is a doll and I am glad to hear she is "Izzy" most of the time. You sound very responsible and are doing a great job with her. She is so sweet looking and I hope you will have an improvment with her meds dose being increased.

Good Luck
Amber


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

Izzy


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

> Nonny, in some ways my past problems getting help with Frosty's
> 
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Has your vet considered trying the prozac on Frosty? (Dosage for Izzy,an 8 pound dog, is 4 mg one or two times a day.) There's a generic prozac that is reasonably priced. Just a thought, since it has made such a big difference in Izzy.


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Nonny.. praying that the issue with Izzy will be as "simple" as the thyroid... (it seems one of the "better" options to be able to deal with.)... or even the extra dose of the prozac can be the answer.
Praying there is a "manageable" answer to sweet little Izzy's problem!


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Nonny, No, the vets haven't given Frosty Prozac. When the ACE made him so violent they did mention Valuim, but he would have to be off the Anipryl several weeks before any of those could be tried. The two types of drugs can't be mixed and stay in the system a long time.



Since the Anipryl hasn't helped his other symptoms much it might be an idea to get him off it and use prozac.


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## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

Why all the remarks about "ridicule" or other bad behavior from members here? I don't get it. Everyone has been very supportive of you on this issue. I haven't seen anything but kindness on this thread and the other thread where you asked for advice.


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> Why all the remarks about "ridicule" or other bad behavior from members here? I don't get it. Everyone has been very supportive of you on this issue. I haven't seen anything but kindness on this thread and the other thread where you asked for advice.[/B]



Nonny has received quite a few "unsupportive" pm's and emails at a time when she really needs support and uplifitng, so while some of her "ridicule" has not been public, I am sure it is still very painful and upsetting to her. I am sure that is what she is referring to....


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## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=206263
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It's just that "ridicule" is synonymous with mocking someone, and I have not seen a single person mocking her here in this or other threads. If in fact it is pm's she references, that's a private matter between Nonny and the author of the message(s), and if the offense is serious enough, it's a private matter involving the site administrator and the author of the message. And then it should be let go of. If these pm's occured in the past, even as recent as a few weeks ago, they don't need to be alluded to in every subsequent post by the person who received them. 

Also, there is a public component inherant in the very definition of "ridicule" that makes a PM a bit unqualified to be considered ridicule. It lacks the intent to encourage others to laugh in a meanspirited way at others. If the message is just between the sender and the recipient, it is hard to make the argument that the sender wanted people to laugh at the recipient, since the only way anyone even knows of the existence of said private messages is because Nonny herself made the disclosure. I very much doubt that anyone would have been aware of their existence otherwise.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

As far as I know we are all big people here. If someone gets a PM they

don't like, it's easy enough to delete it...and block the sender. Tah Dah!



It's really a waste of time to bring it to the board as all of us here are 

charming and beautiful (or handsome).


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## NONNY (May 21, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=206378
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I have been sitting here crying and holding my sweet little Izzy today. She has not walked since last Thursday. This reply is a very good example of what you get, when you reach out for some compassion and understanding because your heart is breaking. I only opened this today, because I needed some comfort, and now I wish I hadn't. Definitely no understanding, concern, or support.....once again.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

We've all been supportive of you, Nonny. I don't understand why you take a 

discussion you started and think of it as a personal affront to you. It isn't.

We all hope Izzy feels better soon.


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## lucida.ann (Feb 18, 2006)

> We've all been supportive of you, Nonny. I don't understand why you take a
> 
> discussion you started and think of it as a personal affront to you. It isn't.
> 
> We all hope Izzy feels better soon.[/B]


I second that. Thank you, Brit. I, too, hope Izzy feels better soon. 

Nonny, I am not going to respond to your latest message right now in the hopes that you will come to see my comments were truly intended as constructive suggestions and not a personal attack on you. You are welcome to take them any way you would like to, but I strongly urge you to sleep on the matter to make sure that it was not a temporary overreaction based on the cumulative stress you are facing. And even if you do still feel that way tomorrow I don't see that my reiterating my comments further would serve any constructive purpose.

However, sometimes giving someone support means telling them something they might not want to hear at the moment. That's the kind of people I want, at least, and I think most people do try to treat others as they would like to be treated. If I were in your shoes I would consider it a great service for someone to be willing to tell me the truth as they see it, and risk incurring my temporary anger, provided they weren't just trying to kick me when I was down. And although you can choose to see it that way, I sincerely hope you decide not to upon further reconsideration and some distance.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=206459
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Jeezzzzzzzz.. Thank you!!!
Andrea~


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