# Questions about some possibly old breeders??



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

I have been doing some research and was hoping some of you can help set things straight because my research has turned up some conflicting information. Which I hate because I don't like to not know the truth and with conflicting information you never know which is truth. Anyways, I know how there are several experienced and knowledgeable people here along with how resourceful some are. I know that you ladies will help me with information so I can decide what is the actual truth.

First is Bluefields. Did she work hand in hand with Joyce Watkins? Was Prince Cody 4, Romine and Two Paws up from her line just with different names? 
My next question is who are Crosswinds, Melodylane, and Cravens? 

Any information/insight to this will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I would call Joyce Watkins and ask her about Bluefield. I've never seen any of those names in
champion pedigrees other than Melodylane and that goes back a ways.


----------



## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

I love learning about past malt breeders! Thanks for asking these questions 
I have heard of Craven and Melodylane alot in old pedigrees but I haven't heard of any of the others sorry!


----------



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 12:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733460


> I would call Joyce Watkins and ask her about Bluefield. I've never seen any of those names in
> champion pedigrees other than Melodylane and that goes back a ways.[/B]



I did call Joyce and she was such a joy to talk to. :wub: She says she never has worked with Bluefields. Then I was told by someone else that Joyce did work with them and that Joyce was not being honest with me. :huh: So me being the type of person that does not like conflicting data, I am asking SM for some insight. I did not sleep well at all last night over this. :mellow: Something is just not right. So here I am with my SM family asking for help to find the truth some where in the middle of what has been told to me.


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

I've seen Melodylane in pedigrees but have never seen any of the others. I agree with Brit, Joyce Watkins should be able to help you and is a very nice and approachable lady. If you have any questions or confusions about what may or may not be her lines, I would go straight to the source!


----------



## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

From what I can tell from this site, Bluefield never had a champion
http://www.woodele.de/maltese/cgi-bin/gene...w&op=search

Crosswinds never had a champion according to this site also
http://www.woodele.de/maltese/cgi-bin/gene...w&op=search

and there were no matches for 
Prince Cody
Romine 
or Two paws

There does seem to be a breeding with Marcris but I am not sure if it can be considered working hand in hand


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I would believe Joyce. She knows where her lines have gone and has no reason to lie about it.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Bluefield Maltese used to be here in Wilson, North Carolina. A friend got a puppy from the breeder, Nell Boykin, about 13-14 years ago. It looks like Ms. Boykin no longer breeds Maltese and has moved on to standard Poodles. It's appears to be a "family business" aka puppymill now with the dogs being kept on farm by the daughter who is breeding Westies.

http://www.familyaffairstandards.com/resources.html

http://www.arrowheadacreswesties.com/adoptees.html

I think Petite Paws in Raleigh may have bought the Bluefield breeding stock when Ms. Boykin stopped breeding Maltese:

http://www.petitepawsgifts.com/catalog.php?category=65

I personally can't imagine Joyce Watkins working with Nell Boykin. I visited with my friend a couple of times when she was puppy hunting and she definitely fit my definition of a backyard breeder. The puppy my friend bought grew to be twelve pounds and had temperament issues including severe separation anxiety.

Tina/It's Magic Maltese is our SM expert on Maltese history and old lines. She may be able to help you with the other names.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

It's also important to know that back when AKC had no closed papers (all were open)
often byb's and even mills would buy a pet and use it for breeding. Although breeders
demanded proof of spay/neuter before giving papers, false documentation was not out
of the question. Breeding a pet from a reputable breeder doesn't nescessarily get 
nice pups, especially when bred to other pet quality byb or mill dogs.


----------



## BrookeB676 (Oct 17, 2004)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 11:28 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733481


> I would believe Joyce. She knows where her lines have gone and has no reason to lie about it.[/B]


That's what I was going to say. Joyce has no reason to lie about who she has or hasn't worked with!


----------



## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 12:17 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733468


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 12:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733460





> I would call Joyce Watkins and ask her about Bluefield. I've never seen any of those names in
> champion pedigrees other than Melodylane and that goes back a ways.[/B]



I did call Joyce and she was such a joy to talk to. :wub: She says she never has worked with Bluefields. Then I was told by someone else that Joyce did work with them and that Joyce was not being honest with me. :huh: So me being the type of person that does not like conflicting data, I am asking SM for some insight. I did not sleep well at all last night over this. :mellow: Something is just not right. So here I am with my SM family asking for help to find the truth some where in the middle of what has been told to me.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I think I'd certainly trust Joyce's word on this situation. She has a great reputation in the Maltese world, and it sure seems she'd have no reason to lie. She'd have nothing to gain and her reputation to lose if she were lying.


----------



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

I am just trying to understand Daisy's pedigree. I was trying to finish her puppy book and scrapbook this past weekend but the information was delayed in some areas, or conflicting with other areas.  So I just want to make sure that I know what is being put into an heirloom item is the correct information. I have worked on my family tree, my husbands family tree and I have never encountered this before.  I just want to know, kwim. 

http://www.akc.org/cgi-bin/store/view.pl?a...;txn_id=4070088


----------



## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

Is that Daisy's pedigree? It has a different name on it.


----------



## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 01:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733515


> I am just trying to understand Daisy's pedigree. I was trying to finish her puppy book and scrapbook this past weekend but the information was delayed in some areas, or conflicting with other areas.  So I just want to make sure that I know what is being put into an heirloom item is the correct information. I have worked on my family tree, my husbands family tree and I have never encountered this before.  I just want to know, kwim.
> [attachment=49002aisys_5_gen_pedi.pdf][/B]


I don't know Daisy's sire or darn but didn't Kandi get some of their malts from Midis Maltese?
If so, I know Midis got alot of Maltese from a top breeder in Italy. Maybe some of Daisy's relatives are Italian


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I think whoever told you that Joyce has worked with Bluefields is getting them mixed up with BlueHills which is Sharon Girven. Sharon Girven has some beautiful dogs and got much of her early breeding stock from Joyce and continues to work closely with her.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I love the history--learning something about where the Malts we have today came from. Do you have the book "The Complete Maltese" by Nicholas Cutillo? It was published in 1986 so most of the current kennel names are not there, but Joyce Watkins certainly is. She started her program in 1959. The book has a considerable history of her first dogs. None of the names you are inquiring about are mentioned in her maltese history to that point.

Melodylane is mentioned in Cutillo's book. Freeman & Mary Purvis, of Centerville, Iowa who had Yorkies until 1980, and after that continued using Melodylane with their Maltese.

It may not help you find the answer to your Bluefields, Crosswinds, or Craven questions, but it is a fasinating history with many pictures of Malts dating from ancient times to the mid-80s.


----------



## BrookeB676 (Oct 17, 2004)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 12:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733515


> I am just trying to understand Daisy's pedigree. I was trying to finish her puppy book and scrapbook this past weekend but the information was delayed in some areas, or conflicting with other areas.  So I just want to make sure that I know what is being put into an heirloom item is the correct information. I have worked on my family tree, my husbands family tree and I have never encountered this before.  I just want to know, kwim.
> [attachment=49002aisys_5_gen_pedi.pdf][/B]


I don't know much about pedigrees, but I think it's adorable that you are finishing her puppy book and scrap book! Luckily Daisy is your baby no matter what. I can't imagine how frustrated it may be to be unsure of what you have been told, but I hope you find the answers you are looking for. 

I can tell you this. My Maya is from a petstore and she has a similar type pedigree (where there are a few scattered champions scattered several generations back), and Louis is from TNT maltese, and he has champions all the way through. Both were consistent with what I expected (i.e. I knew Maya would not have a great pedigree and expected Louis to have one). So in comparison, they are very different pedigrees. But, Maya is my baby nonetheless and I think she is adorable! Though, I never expected her to be from amazing lines and will never purchase a dog with an unknown background. Anyways, I hope you get the answers you are looking for. There are some knowledgable people here on this forum. Either way Daisy is your adorable baby and I know is the perfect dog for you.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

I have spoken to Joyce Watkins in the past. She is a really nice human being and great well known breeder. As others have said she has a wonderful reputation and I would not doubt anything Joyce said.
She is "The Godmother of Maltese" you know.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 01:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733515


> I am just trying to understand Daisy's pedigree. I was trying to finish her puppy book and scrapbook this past weekend but the information was delayed in some areas, or conflicting with other areas.  So I just want to make sure that I know what is being put into an heirloom item is the correct information. I have worked on my family tree, my husbands family tree and I have never encountered this before.  I just want to know, kwim. [/B]


It looks like most of Daisy's ancestors came from Bluefields here in Wilson, North Carolina. Nell Boykin was still breeding Maltese in 2000, so she probably owned most of the dogs in her pedigree. Her phone number is on her website. I'd give her a call and see if she can shed some light on the pedigree. She was a large volume Maltese breeder so she was inspected and closely monitored by the AKC. She probably kept very good records.


----------



## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Awww Debbie, how adorable is that a puppy scrapbook :wub: :wub: You are such an incredible Mommy. :grouphug: 
I hope you get all the information you need for it...that book is going to be something to truly treasure. :grouphug:


----------



## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 01:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733521


> QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 01:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733515





> I am just trying to understand Daisy's pedigree. I was trying to finish her puppy book and scrapbook this past weekend but the information was delayed in some areas, or conflicting with other areas.  So I just want to make sure that I know what is being put into an heirloom item is the correct information. I have worked on my family tree, my husbands family tree and I have never encountered this before.  I just want to know, kwim.
> [attachment=49002aisys_5_gen_pedi.pdf][/B]


I don't know Daisy's sire or darn but didn't Kandi get some of their malts from Midis Maltese?
If so, I know Midis got alot of Maltese from a top breeder in Italy. Maybe some of Daisy's relatives are Italian  
[/B][/QUOTE]


Midis Ace in the Hole is of Dian's breeding and I think Maddie which is the only ones that I know of.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (Carole @ Feb 24 2009, 10:19 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733525


> She is "The Godmother of Maltese" you know. [/B]


 :amen: 

Her first Malt purchased from England in 1959 was Vicbrita Felicity. Joyce's bloodlines started with Jon Vir, Villa Malta, and Aennchen. For many years (according to Cutillo's book) Joyce had an association with C & M Kennels of Carol Thomas.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (CloudClan @ Feb 24 2009, 01:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733522


> I think whoever told you that Joyce has worked with Bluefields is getting them mixed up with BlueHills which is Sharon Girven. Sharon Girven has some beautiful dogs and got much of her early breeding stock from Joyce and continues to work closely with her.[/B]


That makes sense to me. Like others have said, I totally would believe Joyce as she has no reason at all not to be forthcoming. ... BlueHills ... Bluefields... similar names but that is probably where the similarity ends.


----------



## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (LuvMyFurbaby @ Feb 24 2009, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733534


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 01:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733521





> QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 01:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733515





> I am just trying to understand Daisy's pedigree. I was trying to finish her puppy book and scrapbook this past weekend but the information was delayed in some areas, or conflicting with other areas.  So I just want to make sure that I know what is being put into an heirloom item is the correct information. I have worked on my family tree, my husbands family tree and I have never encountered this before.  I just want to know, kwim.
> [attachment=49002aisys_5_gen_pedi.pdf][/B]


I don't know Daisy's sire or darn but didn't Kandi get some of their malts from Midis Maltese?
If so, I know Midis got alot of Maltese from a top breeder in Italy. Maybe some of Daisy's relatives are Italian  
[/B][/QUOTE]


Midis Ace in the Hole is of Dian's breeding which is the only one that I know of.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, thats what I know but all her dogs look so much alike maybe she got more from her. I just love their look!


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I don't see Marcris is involved with Bluefield's on the pedigree. I see where she
bred to a Ju-Le female and a Cravens, but not Bluefields.


----------



## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 01:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733544


> QUOTE (LuvMyFurbaby @ Feb 24 2009, 01:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733534





> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 01:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733521





> QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 01:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733515





> I am just trying to understand Daisy's pedigree. I was trying to finish her puppy book and scrapbook this past weekend but the information was delayed in some areas, or conflicting with other areas.  So I just want to make sure that I know what is being put into an heirloom item is the correct information. I have worked on my family tree, my husbands family tree and I have never encountered this before.  I just want to know, kwim.
> [attachment=49002aisys_5_gen_pedi.pdf][/B]


I don't know Daisy's sire or darn but didn't Kandi get some of their malts from Midis Maltese?
If so, I know Midis got alot of Maltese from a top breeder in Italy. Maybe some of Daisy's relatives are Italian  
[/B][/QUOTE]


Midis Ace in the Hole is of Dian's breeding which is the only one that I know of.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, thats what I know but all her dogs look so much alike maybe she got more from her. I just love their look!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, if she did, they sure aren't in this pedigree which is the one in question right now.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Here is an article that was done by the local media here in Raleigh on Bluefields about nine years ago. 

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/152044/

Of course, I totally disagree with their advice on finding a good breeder! Cage space and solid flooring as opposed to wire is not the hallmark of a reputable breeder. :thmbdn:


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Feb 24 2009, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733552


> Here is an article that was done by the local media here in Raleigh on Bluefields about nine years ago.
> 
> http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/152044/
> 
> Of course, I totally disagree with their advice on finding a good breeder! Cage space and solid flooring as opposed to wire is not the hallmark of a reputable breeder. :thmbdn:[/B]



I remember that article. Not the kind of breeder most of us think of as reputable.


----------



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks for all the information. I am so happy that I came here with my question now. Furbaby's Mommie I am going to look into that book and order it. Sounds like it is a wonderful resource. I am going to give Nell a call. If there is more information, please keep it coming. There are still the other names that are still a mystery like Prince Cody 4th and the others.


----------



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 02:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733553


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Feb 24 2009, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733552





> Here is an article that was done by the local media here in Raleigh on Bluefields about nine years ago.
> 
> http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/152044/
> 
> Of course, I totally disagree with their advice on finding a good breeder! Cage space and solid flooring as opposed to wire is not the hallmark of a reputable breeder. :thmbdn:[/B]



I remember that article. Not the kind of breeder most of us think of as reputable.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, when I read that article my heart just sunk to the pit of my tummy.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 02:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733560


> Thanks for all the information. I am so happy that I came here with my question now. Furbaby's Mommie I am going to look into that book and order it. Sounds like it is a wonderful resource. I am going to give Nell a call. If there is more information, please keep it coming. There are still the other names that are still a mystery like Prince Cody 4th and the others.[/B]


I'd also call the breeder from the Petite Paws Kennels since she got the Bluefield Maltese sometime after 2000. She may help you fill in the gaps.



QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 02:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733562


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 02:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733553





> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Feb 24 2009, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733552





> Here is an article that was done by the local media here in Raleigh on Bluefields about nine years ago.
> 
> http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/152044/
> 
> Of course, I totally disagree with their advice on finding a good breeder! Cage space and solid flooring as opposed to wire is not the hallmark of a reputable breeder. :thmbdn:[/B]



I remember that article. Not the kind of breeder most of us think of as reputable.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, when I read that article my heart just sunk to the pit of my tummy. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

Back then, Maltese were very hard to find in North Carolina. Bluefield was one of the only breeders in the state. My friend made the same mistake many people do when they buy their first Maltese and don't understand the difference between a reputable breeder and a backyard breeder.

Eastern North Carolina is a rural farming area and there are lots of puppymills there. The recent puppymill bust here was only about 45 minutes away from Wilson.


----------



## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

I, like many others, started breeding before showing and unfortunately my lines were not all champions. However, I always did look at the overall quality of the dogs I wanted. I would never want to produce anything other than what I would want to own myself, health and looks. Additionally, all my puppies have been raised in my home (not a kennel), well trained, socialized, health checked and, as much as possible, anything else I could do to make sure the quality was there, even if the pedigree was not all champions. I have always been upfront and honest and have tried to help answer any questions that I could. Things were different years ago and good lines were easier to come by then they are today, even if you weren't a show breeder. As soon as I realized that showing was the way to improve, and was the right thing to do, I researched show breeders and found Dian of Midis. I got a show male and had him finished and it turned out he was #16 in 2008. He finished with all majors in just four shows. (Not that it has any bearing on this topic, but, I had his semen checked a few months ago and we all panicked when we found out he would most likely never reproduce. I was heartbroken to say the least. Turns out we were all wrong. He had a bad collection, I suppose, because his first litter was born on Valentine's day ..2 beautiful girls and 2 beautiful boys. :wub: I haven't announced it here because I haven't been online very much and frankly haven't been very well myself, but, I suppose now wouldn't be a bad time to mention it.) 

I'd love nothing more than to one day have a handfull of great dogs all of which could have their championship credentials, but it does of course take time. Some of my earlier dogs have already been retired to new homes. I have not sold puppies saying that their pedigrees were anything other than what they are, but I did have full blood panels run on each puppy, and their parents before them, and so far (knock on wood) have had no health problems to date. I imagine that if people used as much care in checking for potetial health problems before having kids, at least half of us probably wouldn't even be here today to have this discussion. 

I am fairly new to the showing, but I have met some awesome people who have taken me under their wing and taught me so much. Heck, I learned a lot from this forum alone. Everyday is a new learning opportunity. My point to all this is that I have had beautiful dogs, I am an honest person and even though some of my pedigrees from before I started showing aren't super fancy, I think the puppies produced speak for themselves. They are beautiful babies for sure and, like I said, have had no problems with health. I have only ever wished that any home I have trusted with one of my babies would love them as much as I do and recognize the great effort put forward to making sure that puppy was one of the best anyone could ask for. It is actually incredibly hurtful and upsetting to think that anyone would over look all the good things and create a negative out of something that really has no bearing on their puppy at all.

To answer a question, yes, my Ace is from Midis and his pedigree is fancier (one side of his pedigree is much fancier than the other side, but I think his quality makes it all moot anyway) but he is not Daisy's sire. My beloved Beau (RIP :bysmilie: ) was her sire and while Ace's pedgiree is heavier with champions, there is no real guarantee his puppies will be nicer than Beau's. I should have shown Beau. He was a beautiful boy, but I was uninformed and did not know anything about showing at the time and sadly it's just too late for him.


----------



## CeeCee's Mom (Sep 14, 2006)

I don't know much about breeding and championships and pedigrees but I do know that Daisy is the most beautiful dog I have ever seen. As she has matures, she gets more beautiful and her coat is just stunning!!!! :wub: :wub: :wub: I just love her!!!!!


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 02:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733576


> I, like many others, started breeding before showing and unfortunately my lines were not all champions. However, I always did look at the overall quality of the dogs I wanted. I would never want to produce anything other than what I would want to own myself, health and looks. Additionally, all my puppies have been raised in my home (not a kennel), well trained, socialized, health checked and, as much as possible, anything else I could do to make sure the quality was there, even if the pedigree was not all champions. I have always been upfront and honest and have tried to help answer any questions that I could. Things were different years ago and good lines were easier to come by then they are today, even if you weren't a show breeder. As soon as I realized that showing was the way to improve, and was the right thing to do, I researched show breeders and found Dian of Midis. I got a show male and had him finished and it turned out he was #16 in 2008. He finished with all majors in just four shows. (Not that it has any bearing on this topic, but, I had his semen checked a few months ago and we all panicked when we found out he would most likely never reproduce. I was heartbroken to say the least. Turns out we were all wrong. He had a bad collection, I suppose, because his first litter was born on Valentine's day ..2 beautiful girls and 2 beautiful boys. :wub: I haven't announced it here because I haven't been online very much and frankly haven't been very well myself, but, I suppose now wouldn't be a bad time to mention it.)
> 
> I'd love nothing more than to one day have a handfull of great dogs all of which could have their championship credentials, but it does of course take time. Some of my earlier dogs have already been retired to new homes. I have not sold puppies saying that their pedigrees were anything other than what they are, but I did have full blood panels run on each puppy, and their parents before them, and so far (knock on wood) have had no health problems to date. I imagine that if people used as much care in checking for potetial health problems before having kids, at least half of us probably wouldn't even be here today to have this discussion.
> 
> ...



IF one doesn't know the dogs in the pedigree one cannot know if there are problems that can manifest in future pups. This is the reason for showing and finishing and getting to know other show breeders and exchanging information regarding said dogs, etc.
As for not as many good breeders or lines as there used to be, I cannot imagine there being a better
opportunity for someone who wants to show than to find much more easily a good show prospect and good lines
than ever before. There are plenty of great show breeders out there. I don't understand your logic there at all.


----------



## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 03:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733593


> IF one doesn't know the dogs in the pedigree one cannot know if there are problems that can manifest in future pups. This is the reason for showing and finishing and getting to know other show breeders and exchanging information regarding said dogs, etc.
> As for not as many good breeders or lines as there used to be, I cannot imagine there being a better
> opportunity for someone who wants to show than to find much more easily a good show prospect and good lines
> than ever before. There are plenty of great show breeders out there.[/B]


Brit, that does make sense to me. Show breeders exchanging and sharing information, about their lines. It probably really helps to ensure breeding as much as possible, strong healthy lines.

Thank you for sharing that....it really seems like the reputable show breeders, would be a strong network to continue to keep the breed strong...and healthy. Whereas, puppymills, obviously do not do that...grrrrrr, gosh how I detest them..as well as byb. Show breeders, obviously are not going to breed lines, where there are health problems...they will weed them out...right? Gosh, I think I got it.

Thank you again Brit.


----------



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733576


> I, like many others, started breeding before showing and unfortunately my lines were not all champions. However, I always did look at the overall quality of the dogs I wanted. I would never want to produce anything other than what I would want to own myself, health and looks. *Additionally, all my puppies have been raised in my home (not a kennel), well trained, socialized, health checked and, as much as possible, anything else I could do to make sure the quality was there, even if the pedigree was not all champions. I have always been upfront and honest and have tried to help answer any questions that I could.* Things were different years ago and good lines were easier to come by then they are today, even if you weren't a show breeder. As soon as I realized that showing was the way to improve, and was the right thing to do, I researched show breeders and found Dian of Midis. I got a show male and had him finished and it turned out he was #16 in 2008. He finished with all majors in just four shows. (Not that it has any bearing on this topic, but, I had his semen checked a few months ago and we all panicked when we found out he would most likely never reproduce. I was heartbroken to say the least. Turns out we were all wrong. He had a bad collection, I suppose, because his first litter was born on Valentine's day ..2 beautiful girls and 2 beautiful boys. :wub: I haven't announced it here because I haven't been online very much and frankly haven't been very well myself, but, I suppose now wouldn't be a bad time to mention it.)
> 
> I'd love nothing more than to one day have a handfull of great dogs all of which could have their championship credentials, but it does of course take time. Some of my earlier dogs have already been retired to new homes. I have not sold puppies saying that their pedigrees were anything other than what they are, but I did have full blood panels run on each puppy, and their parents before them, and so far (knock on wood) have had no health problems to date. I imagine that if people used as much care in checking for potetial health problems before having kids, at least half of us probably wouldn't even be here today to have this discussion.
> 
> ...


Honestly Andrea, you know that I love Daisy more than life itself and when you told me that I could give her back last night, I responded 
'that will never happen" and I meant it. I did not start this thread to be negative, I did it so I can be informed because I was not getting the truth and when I did some was partial truths. 

All I ever heard from you is how well you know your pedigree but yet, when I asked you the questions, first you tried to pawn them off with "Why does it matter, Daisy is healthy?" Then when I pried further you then admitted to not knowing that far in the pedigree and that you only research the pup, the parents and then the grandparent but yet you could not tell me who prince cody is from and he is both the sire and dams grandfather and that the pedigree is too old but when I asked to speak to your mother who you say was in the breeding business too, you then in turn said that Prince Cody, Romine and etc are Bluefields line. I remember you saying that you were in this breeding business for a long time but yet you did not deliver a puppy on your own till May of *08*. I found that info when I was digging on yahoo in a breeding chat forum. I also remember going to your house on both occasions to meet you and pick up Daisy and when both my husband and I asked to see where the dogs were kept you refused and when my husband pressed further you got stern with him. I am sorry but that does not sound kosher. I shrugged it off because I was in love with Daisy and I wanted her no matter what. The other thing that made me raise an eyebrow is that you did not want me to say where she is from, when you kept teetering and tottering over if I would be the best home for her but yet, you cashed my checks and finally shut up when I sent you my husbands pay stubs, all because I wanted to not let my husband know the full price because he is old school and does not believe paying that much for a pet. NOW he knows and is even more mad that for that price there was no champions like HE was lead to believe by you, just like I was. Then after I did that you were trying to find any excuse to keep me from getting her. Trying to use the excuse that she was too fragile and that you would worry about her getting hurt, all because during one visit, while Daisy was in between my husbands legs playing and then she tried to jump over his ankle she bumped her head on the floor. I reassured you and yet you were still unsure but yet, here is Daisy in the best care possible with no injuries or which ever while in my house for almost 6 months plus. And she never goes without. 

What kills me is that when I asked to post my questions on SM you got upset and said that you do not want me to do that because it will do nothing but cause you issues. Or with my wanting to post Daisy's pedigree to find out since you were not sure and all you said was that would cause you issues too. Then when you told me that Bluefields was working with Joyce and I told you that was not true because I spoke to her about it and she said no, your tone got elevated and you said that I should not be calling other breeders either about the pedigree because that too would cause you issues and make them contact you as to why I was inquiring and that she was lying to me. With all that said I feel that was all attempts to stone wall me Andrea and that is not right. I paid 3500 for a puppy that yes, is healthy and yes, she is beautiful but for that price there should be more of a sound pedigree and not a byb or mill pedigree. If you knew that the pedigree was not glorious then why charge that price???? 

You say that you want to change and show but yet you have had several opportunities to show and improve your line. You had Maddie and Sweets but yet you yanked them so that you can breed them. Then with Ace, he was not finished by you but by Di. You have yet to finish a dog on your own.

This is not about How beautiful Daisy is, or (knock on wood) that she is healthy it is about my wanting to know my dogs pedigree and her background. About my wanting to know the truth about the inconsistencies you have fed me. You couldn't even give me that. I got a bunch of mishmash and contradictions and you constantly saying about how you are honest and that the other breeders are shady. This is also about my wanting to make sure that I will be correct with getting another puppy from you and honestly Andrea, I don't want another puppy from you after all that I have heard, seen and all from your words, not others.

**edited to input correct year of first delievery changed may of 07 to may of 08.**


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 03:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733611


> QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733576





> I, like many others, started breeding before showing and unfortunately my lines were not all champions. However, I always did look at the overall quality of the dogs I wanted. I would never want to produce anything other than what I would want to own myself, health and looks. *Additionally, all my puppies have been raised in my home (not a kennel), well trained, socialized, health checked and, as much as possible, anything else I could do to make sure the quality was there, even if the pedigree was not all champions. I have always been upfront and honest and have tried to help answer any questions that I could.* Things were different years ago and good lines were easier to come by then they are today, even if you weren't a show breeder. As soon as I realized that showing was the way to improve, and was the right thing to do, I researched show breeders and found Dian of Midis. I got a show male and had him finished and it turned out he was #16 in 2008. He finished with all majors in just four shows. (Not that it has any bearing on this topic, but, I had his semen checked a few months ago and we all panicked when we found out he would most likely never reproduce. I was heartbroken to say the least. Turns out we were all wrong. He had a bad collection, I suppose, because his first litter was born on Valentine's day ..2 beautiful girls and 2 beautiful boys. :wub: I haven't announced it here because I haven't been online very much and frankly haven't been very well myself, but, I suppose now wouldn't be a bad time to mention it.)
> 
> I'd love nothing more than to one day have a handfull of great dogs all of which could have their championship credentials, but it does of course take time. Some of my earlier dogs have already been retired to new homes. I have not sold puppies saying that their pedigrees were anything other than what they are, but I did have full blood panels run on each puppy, and their parents before them, and so far (knock on wood) have had no health problems to date. I imagine that if people used as much care in checking for potetial health problems before having kids, at least half of us probably wouldn't even be here today to have this discussion.
> 
> ...


Honestly Andrea, you know that I love Daisy more than life itself and when you told me that I could give her back last night, I responded 
'that will never happen" and I meant it. I did not start this thread to be negative, I did it so I can be informed because I was not getting the truth and when I did some was partial truths. 

All I ever heard from you is how well you know your pedigree but yet, when I asked you the questions, first you tried to pawn them off with "Why does it matter, Daisy is healthy?" Then when I pried further you then admitted to not knowing that far in the pedigree and that you only research the pup, the parents and then the grandparent but yet you could not tell me who prince cody is from and he is both the sire and dams grandfather and that the pedigree is too old but when I asked to speak to your mother who you say was in the breeding business too, you then in turn said that Prince Cody, Romine and etc are Bluefields line. I remember you saying that you were in this breeding business for a long time but yet you did not deliver a puppy on your own till May of 07. I found that info when I was digging on yahoo in a breeding chat forum. I also remember going to your house on both occasions to meet you and pick up Daisy and when both my husband and I asked to see where the dogs were kept you refused and when my husband pressed further you got stern with him. I am sorry but that does not sound kosher. I shrugged it off because I was in love with Daisy and I wanted her no matter what. The other thing that made me raise an eyebrow is that you did not want me to say where she is from, when you kept teetering and tottering over if I would be the best home for her but yet, you cashed my checks and finally shut up when I sent you my husbands pay stubs, all because I wanted to not let my husband know the full price because he is old school and does not believe paying that much for a pet. NOW he knows and is even more mad that for that price there was no champions like HE was lead to believe by you, just like I was. Then after I did that you were trying to find any excuse to keep me from getting her. Trying to use the excuse that she was too fragile and that you would worry about her getting hurt, all because during one visit, while Daisy was in between my husbands legs playing and then she tried to jump over his ankle she bumped her head on the floor. I reassured you and yet you were still unsure but yet, here is Daisy in the best care possible with no injuries or which ever while in my house for almost 6 months plus. And she never goes without. 

What kills me is that when I asked to post my questions on SM you got upset and said that you do not want me to do that because it will do nothing but cause you issues. Or with my wanting to post Daisy's pedigree to find out since you were not sure and all you said was that would cause you issues too. Then when you told me that Bluefields was working with Joyce and I told you that was not true because I spoke to her about it and she said no, your tone got elevated and you said that I should not be calling other breeders either about the pedigree because that too would cause you issues and make them contact you as to why I was inquiring and that she was lying to me. With all that said I feel that was all attempts to stone wall me Andrea and that is not right. I paid 3500 for a puppy that yes, is healthy and yes, she is beautiful but for that price there should be more of a sound pedigree and not a byb or mill pedigree. If you knew that the pedigree was not glorious then why charge that price???? 

You say that you want to change and show but yet you have had several opportunities to show and improve your line. You had Maddie and Sweets but yet you yanked them so that you can breed them. Then with Ace, he was not finished by you but by Di. You have yet to finish a dog on your own.

This is not about How beautiful Daisy is, or (knock on wood) that she is healthy it is about my wanting to know my dogs pedigree and her background. About my wanting to know the truth about the inconsistencies you have fed me. You couldn't even give me that. I got a bunch of mishmash and contradictions and you constantly saying about how you are honest and that the other breeders are shady. This is also about my wanting to make sure that I will be correct with getting another puppy from you and honestly Andrea, I don't want another puppy from you after all that I have heard, seen and all from your words, not others.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you for posting your situation and being honest and most of all respectful.
I am sorry you are going through this :grouphug: Daisy is beautiful and I am SO happy she is with you :grouphug:


----------



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

BTW for all that is curious, I have documentation to back my claims and have spoken to a lawyer about this. My lawyer said that I have every right to say what I have said and that my educating all is my right, it is called freedom of speech and there was nothing defaming about it because I was not calling anyone names and due to the facts behind it. I have a right to share my experience, my pedigree that I paid for and my dog.


----------



## BrookeB676 (Oct 17, 2004)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 02:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733611


> QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733576





> I, like many others, started breeding before showing and unfortunately my lines were not all champions. However, I always did look at the overall quality of the dogs I wanted. I would never want to produce anything other than what I would want to own myself, health and looks. *Additionally, all my puppies have been raised in my home (not a kennel), well trained, socialized, health checked and, as much as possible, anything else I could do to make sure the quality was there, even if the pedigree was not all champions. I have always been upfront and honest and have tried to help answer any questions that I could.* Things were different years ago and good lines were easier to come by then they are today, even if you weren't a show breeder. As soon as I realized that showing was the way to improve, and was the right thing to do, I researched show breeders and found Dian of Midis. I got a show male and had him finished and it turned out he was #16 in 2008. He finished with all majors in just four shows. (Not that it has any bearing on this topic, but, I had his semen checked a few months ago and we all panicked when we found out he would most likely never reproduce. I was heartbroken to say the least. Turns out we were all wrong. He had a bad collection, I suppose, because his first litter was born on Valentine's day ..2 beautiful girls and 2 beautiful boys. :wub: I haven't announced it here because I haven't been online very much and frankly haven't been very well myself, but, I suppose now wouldn't be a bad time to mention it.)
> 
> I'd love nothing more than to one day have a handfull of great dogs all of which could have their championship credentials, but it does of course take time. Some of my earlier dogs have already been retired to new homes. I have not sold puppies saying that their pedigrees were anything other than what they are, but I did have full blood panels run on each puppy, and their parents before them, and so far (knock on wood) have had no health problems to date. I imagine that if people used as much care in checking for potetial health problems before having kids, at least half of us probably wouldn't even be here today to have this discussion.
> 
> ...


Honestly Andrea, you know that I love Daisy more than life itself and when you told me that I could give her back last night, I responded 
'that will never happen" and I meant it. I did not start this thread to be negative, I did it so I can be informed because I was not getting the truth and when I did some was partial truths. 

All I ever heard from you is how well you know your pedigree but yet, when I asked you the questions, first you tried to pawn them off with "Why does it matter, Daisy is healthy?" Then when I pried further you then admitted to not knowing that far in the pedigree and that you only research the pup, the parents and then the grandparent but yet you could not tell me who prince cody is from and he is both the sire and dams grandfather and that the pedigree is too old but when I asked to speak to your mother who you say was in the breeding business too, you then in turn said that Prince Cody, Romine and etc are Bluefields line. I remember you saying that you were in this breeding business for a long time but yet you did not deliver a puppy on your own till May of 07. I found that info when I was digging on yahoo in a breeding chat forum. I also remember going to your house on both occasions to meet you and pick up Daisy and when both my husband and I asked to see where the dogs were kept you refused and when my husband pressed further you got stern with him. I am sorry but that does not sound kosher. I shrugged it off because I was in love with Daisy and I wanted her no matter what. The other thing that made me raise an eyebrow is that you did not want me to say where she is from, when you kept teetering and tottering over if I would be the best home for her but yet, you cashed my checks and finally shut up when I sent you my husbands pay stubs, all because I wanted to not let my husband know the full price because he is old school and does not believe paying that much for a pet. NOW he knows and is even more mad that for that price there was no champions like HE was lead to believe by you, just like I was. Then after I did that you were trying to find any excuse to keep me from getting her. Trying to use the excuse that she was too fragile and that you would worry about her getting hurt, all because during one visit, while Daisy was in between my husbands legs playing and then she tried to jump over his ankle she bumped her head on the floor. I reassured you and yet you were still unsure but yet, here is Daisy in the best care possible with no injuries or which ever while in my house for almost 6 months plus. And she never goes without. 

What kills me is that when I asked to post my questions on SM you got upset and said that you do not want me to do that because it will do nothing but cause you issues. Or with my wanting to post Daisy's pedigree to find out since you were not sure and all you said was that would cause you issues too. Then when you told me that Bluefields was working with Joyce and I told you that was not true because I spoke to her about it and she said no, your tone got elevated and you said that I should not be calling other breeders either about the pedigree because that too would cause you issues and make them contact you as to why I was inquiring and that she was lying to me. With all that said I feel that was all attempts to stone wall me Andrea and that is not right. I paid 3500 for a puppy that yes, is healthy and yes, she is beautiful but for that price there should be more of a sound pedigree and not a byb or mill pedigree. If you knew that the pedigree was not glorious then why charge that price???? 

You say that you want to change and show but yet you have had several opportunities to show and improve your line. You had Maddie and Sweets but yet you yanked them so that you can breed them. Then with Ace, he was not finished by you but by Di. You have yet to finish a dog on your own.

This is not about How beautiful Daisy is, or (knock on wood) that she is healthy it is about my wanting to know my dogs pedigree and her background. About my wanting to know the truth about the inconsistencies you have fed me. You couldn't even give me that. I got a bunch of mishmash and contradictions and you constantly saying about how you are honest and that the other breeders are shady. This is also about my wanting to make sure that I will be correct with getting another puppy from you and honestly Andrea, I don't want another puppy from you after all that I have heard, seen and all from your words, not others.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow is all I can say. Im so sorry that you feel betrayed (but rightfully so). I imagine it's a hard situation, especially when someone's reputation is on the line, so good for you for being brave and asking the appropriate and responsible questions. I think that it's fair to expect a very well bred female for $3500. And, if anything, your story will hopefully prevent someone else for overpaying for a dog with unknown history (i.e. potential health problems, and no investment in the breed IMO). I also think that sometimes its easier to sell to those who don't ask questions (at least I would imagine).


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 04:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733618


> BTW for all that is curious, I have documentation to back my claims and have spoke to a lawyer about this. My lawyer said that I have every right to say what I have said and that my educating all is my right. There is nothing defaming about my response due to the facts behind it. I have a right to share my experience, my pedigree that I paid for and my dog.[/B]


 :thumbsup: I agree 100%


----------



## coco (Sep 20, 2006)

QUOTE (BrookeB676 @ Feb 24 2009, 04:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733619


> QUOTE (SicilianRose @ Feb 24 2009, 02:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733611





> QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733576





> I, like many others, started breeding before showing and unfortunately my lines were not all champions. However, I always did look at the overall quality of the dogs I wanted. I would never want to produce anything other than what I would want to own myself, health and looks. *Additionally, all my puppies have been raised in my home (not a kennel), well trained, socialized, health checked and, as much as possible, anything else I could do to make sure the quality was there, even if the pedigree was not all champions. I have always been upfront and honest and have tried to help answer any questions that I could.* Things were different years ago and good lines were easier to come by then they are today, even if you weren't a show breeder. As soon as I realized that showing was the way to improve, and was the right thing to do, I researched show breeders and found Dian of Midis. I got a show male and had him finished and it turned out he was #16 in 2008. He finished with all majors in just four shows. (Not that it has any bearing on this topic, but, I had his semen checked a few months ago and we all panicked when we found out he would most likely never reproduce. I was heartbroken to say the least. Turns out we were all wrong. He had a bad collection, I suppose, because his first litter was born on Valentine's day ..2 beautiful girls and 2 beautiful boys. :wub: I haven't announced it here because I haven't been online very much and frankly haven't been very well myself, but, I suppose now wouldn't be a bad time to mention it.)
> 
> I'd love nothing more than to one day have a handfull of great dogs all of which could have their championship credentials, but it does of course take time. Some of my earlier dogs have already been retired to new homes. I have not sold puppies saying that their pedigrees were anything other than what they are, but I did have full blood panels run on each puppy, and their parents before them, and so far (knock on wood) have had no health problems to date. I imagine that if people used as much care in checking for potetial health problems before having kids, at least half of us probably wouldn't even be here today to have this discussion.
> 
> ...


Honestly Andrea, you know that I love Daisy more than life itself and when you told me that I could give her back last night, I responded 
'that will never happen" and I meant it. I did not start this thread to be negative, I did it so I can be informed because I was not getting the truth and when I did some was partial truths. 

All I ever heard from you is how well you know your pedigree but yet, when I asked you the questions, first you tried to pawn them off with "Why does it matter, Daisy is healthy?" Then when I pried further you then admitted to not knowing that far in the pedigree and that you only research the pup, the parents and then the grandparent but yet you could not tell me who prince cody is from and he is both the sire and dams grandfather and that the pedigree is too old but when I asked to speak to your mother who you say was in the breeding business too, you then in turn said that Prince Cody, Romine and etc are Bluefields line. I remember you saying that you were in this breeding business for a long time but yet you did not deliver a puppy on your own till May of 07. I found that info when I was digging on yahoo in a breeding chat forum. I also remember going to your house on both occasions to meet you and pick up Daisy and when both my husband and I asked to see where the dogs were kept you refused and when my husband pressed further you got stern with him. I am sorry but that does not sound kosher. I shrugged it off because I was in love with Daisy and I wanted her no matter what. The other thing that made me raise an eyebrow is that you did not want me to say where she is from, when you kept teetering and tottering over if I would be the best home for her but yet, you cashed my checks and finally shut up when I sent you my husbands pay stubs, all because I wanted to not let my husband know the full price because he is old school and does not believe paying that much for a pet. NOW he knows and is even more mad that for that price there was no champions like HE was lead to believe by you, just like I was. Then after I did that you were trying to find any excuse to keep me from getting her. Trying to use the excuse that she was too fragile and that you would worry about her getting hurt, all because during one visit, while Daisy was in between my husbands legs playing and then she tried to jump over his ankle she bumped her head on the floor. I reassured you and yet you were still unsure but yet, here is Daisy in the best care possible with no injuries or which ever while in my house for almost 6 months plus. And she never goes without. 

What kills me is that when I asked to post my questions on SM you got upset and said that you do not want me to do that because it will do nothing but cause you issues. Or with my wanting to post Daisy's pedigree to find out since you were not sure and all you said was that would cause you issues too. Then when you told me that Bluefields was working with Joyce and I told you that was not true because I spoke to her about it and she said no, your tone got elevated and you said that I should not be calling other breeders either about the pedigree because that too would cause you issues and make them contact you as to why I was inquiring and that she was lying to me. With all that said I feel that was all attempts to stone wall me Andrea and that is not right. I paid 3500 for a puppy that yes, is healthy and yes, she is beautiful but for that price there should be more of a sound pedigree and not a byb or mill pedigree. If you knew that the pedigree was not glorious then why charge that price???? 

You say that you want to change and show but yet you have had several opportunities to show and improve your line. You had Maddie and Sweets but yet you yanked them so that you can breed them. Then with Ace, he was not finished by you but by Di. You have yet to finish a dog on your own.

This is not about How beautiful Daisy is, or (knock on wood) that she is healthy it is about my wanting to know my dogs pedigree and her background. About my wanting to know the truth about the inconsistencies you have fed me. You couldn't even give me that. I got a bunch of mishmash and contradictions and you constantly saying about how you are honest and that the other breeders are shady. This is also about my wanting to make sure that I will be correct with getting another puppy from you and honestly Andrea, I don't want another puppy from you after all that I have heard, seen and all from your words, not others.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow is all I can say. Im so sorry that you feel betrayed (but rightfully so). I imagine it's a hard situation, especially when someone's reputation is on the line, so good for you for being brave and asking the appropriate and responsible questions. I think that it's fair to expect a very well bred female for $3500. And, if anything, your story will hopefully prevent someone else for overpaying for a dog with unknown history (i.e. potential health problems, and no investment in the breed IMO). I also think that sometimes its easier to sell to those who don't ask questions (at least I would imagine).
[/B][/QUOTE]

Brooke, you are so correct in that. For goodness sake, I paid less that than for Coco, and her pedigree is loaded with Champions. Her sire was the #1 Maltese in the country his whole show career. I do believe there is someone else on this forum who has a new puppy with the same sire. I went to a reputable breeder looking for a healthy, beautiful puppy, and it never occured to me to even ask about her pedigree. I just knew it would be good. When I went back to get Coco, Bonnie showed me Coco's sire on the front of a magazine cover. The difference here is that I KNEW that she was well bred and from a long line of Champions, so asking didn't seem important to me. I have to say that I've learned a lot from Spoiled Maltese about different breeders, and this thread is even more educational for those who are looking for their new puppy. At the time I got Coco, I just feel like I was at the right place at the right time, and it all fell into place. I will say that I researched through the AMA site to find Bonnie, and I called many breeders from that site in my search.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

:shy: I'm not even sure why but this is very upsetting to me. I thought we were talking about learning about old pedigrees. I didn't realize.

Even with almost 18 years of onwing a Maltese I still feel like an idiot. I always want to think the best of everyone, and here I am at 67 yr. old and naive as a babe. 

At the moment I feel like I can't believe anything I'm told about any breeder, good or bad. I'd like to have another puppy but I want to be friends with the person I get it from and feel like I know that everything I'm told by that person has no room for doubt. I want to feel she has nothing to hide and isn't leaving anything out. I hate having to say I want it in writing, or show me the lab report, or give me your vet's name so I can check for myself. Why is breeding a puppy in a breed you've pretty much dedicated your life to something that makes a person live a lie of any kind. Puppies are love in mind and so pure and innocent you just think the person who raised them should be. I know--naive.

If wishes were horses all men would ride---and I would know where a next puppy might come from.

Sorry for feeling so down. I don't know why I let things like this bother me.


----------



## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

This pedigree is an old pedigree. Quite a few "unknowns" in there. Back then showing was not done on such a big scale as it is now. Some of the "puppy mills" right now are getting good breeding stock from some very good breeder's and then sending them out with a handler to get them finished. So, you will start seeing "good pedigrees" from questionable sources. 
I researched my pedigrees. Nikki http://itsmagicmaltese.com/Nikki's%20Pedigree%20PDF.pdf and Jassmine http://itsmagicmaltese.com/Jassmine's%...igree%20PDF.pdf The two dogs I started with. 
In the pedigrees other than mine that I researched I didn't see Bluefield ever. I have over 700 pedigrees in my pedigree maker so that I can make 5 generation pedigrees for my dogs. 
A breeder has to start somewhere. A young woman from Kansas City bought one of my puppies. She had bought a puppy from a MO puppy mill, that puppy was very good quality. I talked to the puppy mill breeder's and they had Anchenne (sp) blood lines. hmmmm......... No champions though. 
We learn as we go and I am sure Andrea has learned what it takes to be a very good breeder. It does take time to get the breeding that you are striving for. 
Showing is not easy and it's not easy to finish a dog, especially if you are doing it yourself. Owner/handlers can have the best dog in the ring and not win. Heck, a handler can have the best dog in the ring and not win. I have two dogs out with a top handler right now. I had spinal surgery and cannot do it. They are in coat and I didn't want to chance loosing the coats. Been there, done that. He has had them since December 19th, started showing them January 2nd. They aren't done yet, but he will finish them in less time, but not less money than I could have. I have spent since December 19th, $6000.00 on showing these two girls. It takes dedication and penny pinching to show dogs. It is a rich mans sport (and I am not rich). 
When these two girls finish that will be it until the Topeka show where I hope to show Monty. And with the finishing of these two girls, it will give Jassmine her Record Of Merit for producing 3 champions. But, of course you have to be a member of the AMA to apply for it. 
I have beautiful girls and boys who will not have champions on them, but do have a background of champions simply because I couldn't afford the cost, too big, I ruined the coat etc. Will I breed them, yes, because they will better my breeding. I do not sell puppies out of these dogs over $800.00 because they are not championed sire or dam. In the breeding there could be a show potential puppy. Then, I will show it. There is a lot to breeding dogs than you think. But, that is me and how I think. You can't get big prices in Kansas. What someone charges for a pup is subjective. There is a lot that goes into that. 
JMO
Tina 

By the way, Top breeder's today do not show their own dogs. They get the dogs ready to go to a handler and send them out. In fact, some even look down their noses at those of us who do show our own dogs. (sizzle, burn, poof)


----------



## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

I totally agree that you have every right to post what your experience was and I have to say I'm surprised that you paid that much for Daisy. You should have gotten champion parents and a loaded pedigree. I'm sorry you have all these questions and no answers. I'm sure the way you're digging into this you will find your answers. One of the biggest red flags is not seeing the parent and where the dogs live. I know if I get another one it will be a rescue or from a breeder that has dogs that are very active in the show ring and have several champions in their program. There's way to many BYB out there.
I'm glad you have Daisy and she has such a wonderful home. I know even with your questions about her pedigree that you love her very much. 
Big hugs to you and Daisy.


----------



## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Wow is all I can say as well. :new_shocked: So sorry you had so many difficulties. I hope you can get it resolved soon. Daisy is a beautiful fur baby and I know she's the light of your life. 


I have to comment that I'm grateful to Nikki's breeder for the good experience I had. Nikki's lineage is filled with champions, and she was reasonably priced compared to others. I couldn't ask for a better experience. I guess it's good to have a forum like this to exchange experiences. 

I wish you the best with everything.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I think the point is, if the pedigree is not majority champion breeding it's very difficult to trust that
the dog (pup) is going to be healthy over the long run. I don't mean to say that no dog gets
sick that comes from a showbreeder BUT - the majority of dogs who come from the othertypes
of breeders who make their living in their backyard and sell the pups. Whether the pup is
pretty, within the standard, and temperment, there is no studying of the dogs behind the pup
to try to insure that the pup will live a long and healthy life. THIS is what your 3500 should
pay for...a quality of life pet. A pet that will have a good chance of living a long and healthy
existence with proper care. This is why showbreeders KNOW the dogs in their pedigrees.

Look how Marj has told us over and over all her little Lady has been through - not to mention
the cost over the years to keep her going and feeling well. This is what showbreeders try
to avoid by knowing the dogs in the pedigrees so they do not have to worry about pups 
suffering.


----------



## bbry (Feb 17, 2007)

All this makes me sad too. I started this thread thinking we were talking about the history of Maltese and somewhere in the middle I realize we are in the middle of a personal feud. I know neither party but in most cases there is enough blame to go around.

I, for one, would have done lots of research before I shelled out $3500 for a puppy. Actually unless I intended to breed & show I wouldn't spend $3500 for a puppy. I can love another puppy just as easily for a lot less money. 

At this point, I don't know what this accomplishes, I'm sure you would never give your baby up, the breeder has offered to take her back (with, I assume a full refund). What else is there? I don't think any breeder wants to get in the habit of refunding money. Now, if the pedigree is not correct or there are serious issues that you were promised wouldn't occur that might be another issue.

I feel badly for both of you.


----------



## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

:new_shocked: 3,500 hundred bucks! :new_shocked: :faint:


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 06:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733683


> I think the point is, if the pedigree is not majority champion breeding it's very difficult to trust that
> the dog (pup) is going to be healthy over the long run. I don't mean to say that no dog gets
> sick that comes from a showbreeder BUT - the majority of dogs who come from the othertypes
> of breeders who make their living in their backyard and sell the pups. Whether the pup is
> ...


 :goodpost: Well said. That is why I try to tell Lady's story over and over again and warn people why it is so important to buy a puppy from a reputable breeder. 

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Lady originally came from Bluefield. Nell Boykin really was the only Maltese breeder near Raleigh thirteen years ago.


----------



## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

Hello everyone, this is Kevin, you would know me as the K in Kandi, or Andrea's husband. I have had the pleasure of meeting many of you in person either at the AMA nationals, small get-togethers at our home, or even chance encounters at shows. Typically I would have to say that everyone I have met has been very nice and courteous and certainly that all your Maltese babies are precious, although I must admit to having slight preferences to a select few.  

I cannot personally comment on the actual practices of other breeders, but regardless of long seeded personal feelings about my wife, I am certain that anyone would be hard pressed to find anyone more caring of their dogs or more willing to continually better their own practices than we are. I have read through this post and many others in the past, but have never had the time, nor felt the need, to personally respond until now. 

First of all Debbie, we welcomed you to our home and were very reluctant to place one of our babies with you because we were very uncertain about who you were and from our side there were several red flags that popped up while discussing wether to allow you to have Daisy. What ever the reason you wanted to keep the price secret from your husband is your business, but may I remind you that from the very start we told you, point blank, that we wanted no part of being dishonest, that out of respect for you we would not bring up the actual amount unless asked directly by your husband, and even this we were not very comfortable with. We NEVER told you that the price you were paying for her had anything to do with her pedigree. In fact, as I recall, we were very upfront about the fact that we were new to showing. Then there was the highly unusual issue of the various payments you sent, different amounts spread over time yet you claimed to be quite well off and that you routinely spent similar sums of money without much more thought than buying a coffee. At the time gas prices were high and that you lived about a hour from us yet would "have to see about visiting because of the gas cost" didn't exactly fit in with the whole "well off" thing. Honestly I could give a rat's butt how much money you have or don't have but I will be perfectly clear that in the beginning we were concerned that you could quite possibly be somehow unscrupulous yourself. We were ONLY concerned with the quality of home Daisy would be placed into and after getting to know you we conceeded to let you take her home. (FYI to anyone interested, money is never even a consideration on a long laundry list of requirements we have to be comfortable with before agreeing to place a dog with anyone and we have often turned away people with fatter bank accounts than any of us could imagine so I don't want to hear any BS about it)

Further, when you visited our home, several times I might add, we certainly did not allow you carte blanch access to every room in our house, we're not a tour company or a puppy store. We live in a nice upscale residential neighborhood, we don't have a kennel, our home is meticulously clean as well as our dogs, but we will not have strangers meandering about through our rooms. This is mainly for the protection of our puppies. There are many diseases that young puppies are suseptible to and many of them are things which can linger long after they have been introduced to the space. Many people looking to adopt a new puppy will visit several breeders and we are always worried about what may come into our house. As for seeing Daisy's parents, you certainly did see them and enough so that you even wished to adopt her dam when she was retired, so let's just keep things as clear and truthful as possible. I even think you saw Beau and Ace and perhaps others, although I might be mistaken about Beau, he may have passed before we had the chance for you to see him, I cannot recall exactly. Everyone should realize that the interview process is a two-way communication and that prospective buyers are just as much on the line as we are. 

Your questions 7 months after having Daisy home, and her pedigree, came out of left field to say the least. There is nothing wrong with looking into a pedigree or asking questions. As I understood we'd all been quite friendly until maybe last night. I'm completely baffled as to where this is all coming from or what it is that you expect to get out of it all. Where does it end? The point is you knew her price, you knew it had nothing to do with her pedigree, we never pressured you or used any sales tactics on you to adopt her (quite the opposite actually). Price is a subjective thing. I don't necessarily agree to the cost of a Louie bag, but plenty of people have strong opinions to the contrary. There are several reasons why we ask the price we do, first and foremost is the amount of cost we put back into our dogs. We feed ultra premium food to all our babies (Nat Bal Duck & Potato) We spend countless sums at the vet (infact this past year we spent enough to buy a very nice pre-owned car and that was just from routine check ups, teeth cleaning, blood work, pre-whelp xrays and loads of other fun stuff with nothing even wrong) Our pups are incredibly well socialized, healthy, practically house trained, gorgeous, and tear free. On top of all that, we only have a very small handfull of pups born each year! We're not by any means raking in the dough from our dogs. I have my business and this is simply a hobby for us, one which we usually enjoy very much aside from times like this. 

Regarding our show career, let's get a few things straight for everyone to understand properly without a bunch of people putting their two cents in that frankly don't know what it is they are talking about anyway. Maddie was sold to us without a show contract, or the idea of being shown. Generally people may not be keenly aware, but often Females are not shown for a number of reasons. It does of course happen, but it is certainly not the rule. I won't get into the detailed hows and whys. Andrea requested permission from Dian to show Maddie and while she is a strikingly beautiful girl, her temperment was not proper for the ring and she didn't like it. Some judges suggested that we not continue to show her because it was obvious that she didn't love the whole process. Sweets, while we love her to death, is not being shown because she was the smallest in her large field at specialty and still has not grown to what we hoped she would be, she's only 3.5 lbs right now. People that are not routinely in the mode of showing wouldn't have insight to know that not every dog can or should be shown, likewise there are plenty of dogs out there that have been shown and even may have won championships that quite frankly should not have been. Also, sadly the Maltese show ring is a place that often is ruled by professional handlers, many breeders do not ever show their own dogs but rather pay for the expertise of a professional handler to finish the dog so the fact that Andrea has not been the one to have her photo snapped for the finishing shot has nothing to do with anything. However, she has gotten out there and shown, and has learned a great deal about presenting and grooming a dog for show and I would think that not very long from now we will have our own "bred-by" champion-- something many people wait many years to achieve. 

Lastly, the reason we didn't want any of this presented on SM is not that we have anything to hide or have done anything wrong, but that we've had our fair share of underserved negative attention from a select clique that seem to thrive on any discord and tend to twist things in inumerable ways to make us look bad without even actually having an understanding of what it is they are really arguing. I want to put this issue to rest once and for all. If I have offended anyone, it was not my intention, it's not the type of person I am and plenty of you have met me and should be able to attest to that fact, but I do get inscenced at the thought of one of our babies not being appreciated for how wonderful they really are. 

Regards,
Kevin


----------



## ilovemymaltese (Oct 9, 2008)

QUOTE (I Found Nemo @ Feb 24 2009, 06:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733692


> :new_shocked: 3,500 hundred bucks! :new_shocked: :faint:[/B]


That's what I said! That's typical Chrisman and Marcris female puppy prices!


----------



## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

I have been showing dogs for almost 20 years. :smheat: I started before the internet became popular. What an advantage a new person has now as opposed to 20 years ago. Not only can you find true Maltese show breeders but you can actually research them.....................all on the internet. I could have been taken when I was looking for my first "real" showdog but luckily the lady I was wanting to talk to was moving so I went to the next person on my list. I really had no clue as to how to find Maltese Show Breeders!!! It was REALLY hard to find reputable show breeders back then especially in Colorado. I met some people whom, at the time, I thought were show people at some local shows but later found out differently. Anyway, my point is that now days people have such an advantage in looking for nice dogs or basically anything else you might be interested in.  As in anything on the internet, it is "buyer beware" and one needs to do their research because there are the scams and scammers all over the internet. :angry: Geez..............I got scammed looking for a camera and I thought I was pretty internet savvy. :brownbag: 

Back to my point..............it is easier now to find the good breeders or the breeders with the type of look that you happen to prefer especially if you are wanting to get into showing, however, those same breeders can also be more knowledgeable about whom they are selling their dogs too. 

I wrote an article a couple of years ago after visiting with several people who were looking for Maltese puppies but could not tell if the breeders they were talking to were actually reputable or not. (http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/howtofindmaltese.htm) I wrote this in hopes that it would help others who found themselves in the same dilema.


----------



## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (Vanitysmom @ Feb 24 2009, 07:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733712


> I have been showing dogs for almost 20 years. :smheat: I started before the internet became popular. What an advantage a new person has now as opposed to 20 years ago. Not only can you find true Maltese show breeders but you can actually research them.....................all on the internet. I could have been taken when I was looking for my first "real" showdog but luckily the lady I was wanting to talk to was moving so I went to the next person on my list. I really had no clue as to how to find Maltese Show Breeders!!! It was REALLY hard to find reputable show breeders back then especially in Colorado. I met some people whom, at the time, I thought were show people at some local shows but later found out differently. Anyway, my point is that now days people have such an advantage in looking for nice dogs or basically anything else you might be interested in.  As in anything on the internet, it is "buyer beware" and one needs to do their research because there are the scams and scammers all over the internet. :angry: Geez..............I got scammed looking for a camera and I thought I was pretty internet savvy. :brownbag:
> 
> Back to my point..............it is easier now to find the good breeders or the breeders with the type of look that you happen to prefer especially if you are wanting to get into showing, however, those same breeders can also be more knowledgeable about whom they are selling their dogs too.
> 
> I wrote an article a couple of years ago after visiting with several people who were looking for Maltese puppies but could not tell if the breeders they were talking to were actually reputable or not. (http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/howtofindmaltese.htm) I wrote this in hopes that it would help others who found themselves in the same dilema.[/B]


How very kind of you to come here and share your time and knowledge. I truly do appreciate.
As just a Maltese Mommy, sometimes it just doesn't seem that easy. Sometimes it seems to get more difficult. It's so scarey sometimes, and I really feel for all the wonderful caring breeders out there, having to share the same title of "breeder", that should never be a breeder. Not sure if that makes sense or not. That is just a general statement.

If your fortunate enough to be invited to a breeders home, is it really too much to ask, to see all their dogs? I ask that innocently, and not directed at anyone. Now I wouldn't expect them to all look like they are about to jump in the ring, but you can tell if a fur-baby is cared for, or how it's cared for by being able to see them.

This is all so very sad.

Once again, thank you so much for posting.


----------



## Carole (Nov 1, 2005)

Whoa........can't believe where this thread has gone...since i posted in it. :shocked: 
I thought this thread was about long ago breeders...... not a fued.
Call me surpised. :blink:


----------



## Missy&Maggie (Jun 17, 2007)

Debbie was simply researching Daisy’s pedigree and trying to understand what lineages are behind her precious Daisy. No matter what Daisy’s pedigree says I know it would never effect how much Debbie loves her sweet Daisy. Abbie’s pedigree is very similar to Daisy’s and it doesn’t have any effect on how much I love her. Maggie and Abbie are both the lights of my life. They bring me immeasurable amounts of happiness and joy just like Daisy does to Debbie. I’m appalled that it would even be insinuated that Debbie doesn’t love Daisy because she is concerned about her pedigree.

Kevin’s attacks and insults directed at Debbie are uncalled for and immature. There is no reason for him to attack her character. Debbie is one of the kindest, sweetest, most genuine and honest people I have ever meet.

We all live and learn. I think both Debbie and I have learned that you can’t do enough research or ask enough questions especially when it comes to adding a new member to your family. If/When there is a next time, I’m sure we will both be more careful and better versed.


----------



## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

QUOTE (Missy&Maggie @ Feb 24 2009, 07:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733762


> Debbie was simply researching Daisy’s pedigree and trying to understand what lineages are behind her precious Daisy. No matter what Daisy’s pedigree says I know it would never effect how much Debbie loves her sweet Daisy. Abbie’s pedigree is very similar to Daisy’s and it doesn’t have any effect on how much I love her. Maggie and Abbie are both the lights of my life. They bring me immeasurable amounts of happiness and joy just like Daisy does to Debbie. I’m appalled that it would even be insinuated that Debbie doesn’t love Daisy because she is concerned about her pedigree.
> 
> Kevin’s attacks and insults directed at Debbie are uncalled for and immature. There is no reason for him to attack her character. Debbie is one of the kindest, sweetest, most genuine and honest people I have ever meet.
> 
> We all live and learn. I think both Debbie and I have learned that you can’t do enough research or ask enough questions especially when it comes to adding a new member to your family. If/When there is a next time, I’m sure we will both be more careful and better versed.[/B]



:goodpost: :walklikeanegyptian:


----------



## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

:back2topic: Does anyone know of any of those breeder's that Debbie asked for information on? I would like to know the information too. I know Melodylane, I've seen some of their breeding, but I don't know the other's she asked about. 

Tina


----------



## SicilianRose (Jun 8, 2008)

First, let me say that I originally posted about Daisy's pedigree because I was not getting the truth from my breeder. I thought it was wrong for her to tell me that I could not post my pedigree and post my questions. I did try going through Andrea but was being lied to after she tried to push it off by saying "Why do you care when Daisy is healthy?" I paid 3500 because I thought they were show breeders, that there was champions in the lines but there was none and sadly I found out about this after the fact. I did not want this to be a vendetta, I just honestly wanted to learn about her pedigree. It turned south when Andrea tried to defend herself when she was not being attacked. What killed me was when she say that she was hurt by my posting on SM. In fact it is I who has been hurt because I trusted someone and I was lied too. Everything I post has documentation to back it. I am going to respond to Kevins thread below and it will be in bold. He had no right to attack me like he did. 

QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Feb 24 2009, 06:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733698


> Hello everyone, this is Kevin, you would know me as the K in Kandi, or Andrea's husband. I have had the pleasure of meeting many of you in person either at the AMA nationals, small get-togethers at our home, or even chance encounters at shows. Typically I would have to say that everyone I have met has been very nice and courteous and certainly that all your Maltese babies are precious, although I must admit to having slight preferences to a select few.
> 
> *I just do not understand why you are posting from her account when you have your own. Now to the rest of your response*
> 
> ...


My posting this thread does not mean that I love Daisy any less. I originally just wanted to learn about her blood lines and after everything happened I now want to make sure that people know the truth.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 24 2009, 08:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733771


> :back2topic: Does anyone know of any of those breeder's that Debbie asked for information on? I would like to know the information too. I know Melodylane, I've seen some of their breeding, but I don't know the other's she asked about.
> 
> Tina[/B]


Tina, did you read my posts? I am very familiar with Bluefield.


----------



## nikkivong (Aug 25, 2006)

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 24 2009, 03:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=733683


> I think the point is, if the pedigree is not majority champion breeding it's very difficult to trust that
> the dog (pup) is going to be healthy over the long run. I don't mean to say that no dog gets
> sick that comes from a showbreeder BUT - the majority of dogs who come from the othertypes
> of breeders who make their living in their backyard and sell the pups. Whether the pup is
> ...


You said it perfectly brit!


----------

