# Puppy from Breeder in Nebraska!



## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

I am getting a puppy from a breeder in Nebraska. So far, everything about the breeder seems perfect, except ONE thing. She, on advice from her Vet, lets her puppies go home at eight weeks providing that they are eating on their own well enough, etc. 

She only raises maltese, and does so in her home. She is not a kennel. She gave references from a man living in my town- a full three hours away from her. He bought two of her pups, and his friends have bought some of her pups. He had nothing but praise, and I saw pics of the dogs. She sells with a limited AKC registration, so the pups can't be bred under registration. She is very knowledgable. She detests the "teacup" label, and says it is a scam. She is everything you could want in a breeder, except for the eight week old thing. 

Now, I have had a chihuahua before. It came home at about eight and a half weeks old. There was nothing wrong with it; he did perfectly fine. My ex has a Chihuahua-papillon mix, very tiny. It came home between 8-9 weeks. He is just fine, despite that breeder being a *%#$*&. The point is, in all my experience I can't see any really compelling reason that the pup can't come home at 8 weeks if she is otherwise doing fine. 

And no, she doesn't have a "buy it now" button on her web PAGE. Yes, it is just a page, with pictures of her and her friend's dogs. I had to hunt through the internet for months before finding this woman. 

(btw, she has said that we are more than welcome to come up there at any time. However, with gas prices and our schedules the way they are, I just can't do that.)

So, how important is this eight week old thing REALLY, in the grand scheme of things??


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm


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## pdbailly (Mar 21, 2008)

> http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/12weekrule.htm[/B]


Where is this at in Nebraska????


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## jen_hedz (Mar 5, 2008)

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Foxstonemaltese isn't in nebraska. I think she was just posting that to show the 12 week rule.


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## pdbailly (Mar 21, 2008)

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Isn't Foxstone in SE Colorado?


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## pdbailly (Mar 21, 2008)

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Foxstonemaltese isn't in nebraska. I think she was just posting that to show the 12 week rule.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Isn't Foxstone in SE Colorado?
[/B][/QUOTE]
I am wondering where in Nebraska this breeder who lets pups go young is located


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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"So, how important is this eight week old thing REALLY, in the grand scheme of things??"

The link is answering the above question from the OP.


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## carolicious (Feb 25, 2008)

Hello and welcome to spoiled!! 


Look through this post http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33435

This had a lot of information give on the 12 week rule vs. some information against it. Also, in other countries they take home their maltese pups starting at 8-10 weeks and not 12 like in the US. So this topic is quite a touchy subject so you may get a lot of responses to your question.

I also did not know why 12 weeks was such an important rule but once I started looking at it from the breeder's perspective and how they are most concerned with the well being of the pups, more so than giving buyers very young puppies so that they can enjoy it longer, I can understand. I always thought it from the buyer's perspective of wanting to enjoy the pups longer before, but I understand where the breeders are coming from and I figure I can wait one more month for the puppy to come home to give myself and the breeder and the pup a peace of mind and a great start.

However, on the contrary, I know others who have gotten small toy breed puppies at 8 weeks who have grown to be fine dogs. So I would say 12 weeks is a precautionary measurement that most reputable breeders stick by because they care about and love their dogs that much. 


Also, you can never trust anyone just over the phone, as through email, which had been my experience. I almost got scammed. What is the name of the breeder or the name of the kennel she is running in Nebraska? There is a list of places that is considered the "puppy mill list" that maybe you can check to see if her name is on first.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I've been doing some research on this, apparently there are some hypoglycemia concerns and some physical development concerns by some members on this forum. My concerns are about the socialization during the critical or sensitive period for puppies which ends sometime between 12 and 14 weeks. I'm still trying to take an objective look at this, so I'm unwilling to go out on a limb and say, "Get your puppy at 8 weeks". There's lots of things to consider. 

Do you have a small animal veterinarian yet? What does he/she recommend as far as the age to bring a toy breed puppy home? If you were to bring home the puppy at 8 weeks are you able to stay at home and monitor the puppy? Do you have children which might stress the puppy? 

Here's just a few of the articles/sites I've found so far which are from reputable sources about the age to bring a puppy home and some which address some socialization issues. 

My earlier post on Spoiled Maltese titled "What If"



Joy


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

Whoa! One at a time! LOL :biggrin: 

Okay, No offense, but I don't really want to divulge names, etc to the general public. One, I don't WANT her name all over the internet. Two, she seems to have everything else right. I don't want to see people bashing her because of the 12 week rule. I haven't been able to find strong evidence to support the rule, and I don't blame her or anyone else who challenges it. 

Like I said, I have been looking at breeders in my general vicinity for months. I stumbled upon a very small ad online, with a link to her webpage. There wasn't a lot of information there. I emailed, asked most of the AMA breeder interview questions. She got them all "right" with the exception of the twelve week rule. As I said before, I believe that it depends on the puppy, and other factors. Neither she nor her friend (with whom she runs her breeding program) are on the puppy mill lists. I have checked every list I could find. I "googled" their names, and found only the ad and webpage, and an old abandoned website for her horse farm. (I don't know if she is still in the horse farming thing- it has nothing to do with puppies, so its no concern of mine) 

I am a college student, currently only going to school, no job. I have a fiance. Between the two of us, someone is almost always home. I thought that now would be an optimal time to get a puppy, since we have plenty of time. No, there are no kids. There won't be any kids for the forseeable future. We own our own home, and it has a fenced yard. There is no reason I cannot take care of a tiny puppy. 

My vet has said that eight weeks old is fine, so long as the puppy is in good general health and is eating well on its own. 

I am starting to get the impression I opened a big ol' can o' worms....


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## carolicious (Feb 25, 2008)

> Whoa! One at a time! LOL :biggrin:
> 
> Okay, No offense, but I don't really want to divulge names, etc to the general public. One, I don't WANT her name all over the internet. Two, she seems to have everything else right. I don't want to see people bashing her because of the 12 week rule. I haven't been able to find strong evidence to support the rule, and I don't blame her or anyone else who challenges it.
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LOL, that you certainly did.
The topic of the 12 week rule and getting puppies from pet stores and non reputable breeders, and the topic of breeding your pet are just about the most sensitive areas to ask about on this forum. 

I feel like you have already made up your mind and that all the things people are going to say won't change it, so I think the best thing we can do is give you advice and like the other post. Make sure you are with your puppy 24/7. Literally 24/7. No going out and leaving it home by itself no matter how short of a time it is, and get a tube of Nutri Stat or Nutri Cal to always be on hand and oh get it a blanket! I think covering them with a blanket at night really helps them to relax and feel safer at a new environment. Coby absolutely loves his blankie and he'll go right to sleep if you put it over him :biggrin:


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

I guess mainly I was just looking for someone to say, "Look, here is this study," or something that would be more unbiased. I understand that many breeders have a lot of experience, however, this is not scientific evidence to support the claim. I think the real answer is that is just depends on the breeder, the individual puppy and the buyer. Perhaps 12 weeks is more of a guideline, specifically aimed at typical American families- working two jobs, etc? 

Actually, the breeder is sending a baby blanket full of "home smells" along with the puppy. I thought that was a brilliant idea. 

Okay, how about a slightly less polorizing question... What the heck is the purpose of removing dew claws, and, is it necessary?


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Just curious, have you done an onsite look at the puppies and parents? The fact that you said she and a friend run the breeding program sent up a red flag for me. If she's breeding out of her home, would she need a friend to help run the breeding program?

I just read an article about breeder "red flags" last evening. Here's the link:

Tips On Red Flags When Looking At Dog Breeders



Joy

Edited to add: the list of questions to ask are great also.


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## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

Generally, the problem with selling Maltese puppies at 8 weeks is that they are not ready. I can speak for that as I am a breeder and if I sold my puppies at eight weeks old, they probably would not make it. They are still nursing at that age, and are not yet completely weaned. The problem is someone who is selling them at that age usually has the "get them out before they become a problem" kind of attitude. Maltese tend to get very rambonxious at that age and many non reputale breeders will try and get them out at that age as they are tearing up the wee pads, getting poo stuck on their butt, making a mess and being mouthy. You want someone that has their best interest at heart to be your breeder, because if they don't, you can be darn sure that is not the only thing they are doing wrong. Hypoglycemia is also very common at that age. I find that they learn a whole lot from their mom's around 8-12 weeks. This is a very crucial age. Even if a vet has told her that it's ok, that doesn't mean that it is. I find even with my vet, they just go by a general "puppy rule" While a lab or retriever may be ready to go at that age, a Maltese isn't. 

Hope that has cleared up some of your questions. Do yourself a favor, do more research, look around until you find the perfect breeder who aces ALL of the questions, NOT most. This is a life we are talking about, not a little toy.

Moral of the story: You want to go with a breeder who has the best interest of the puppy..Someone selling them at 8 weeks doesn't likely have the puppy's best interest at heart.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> Generally, the problem with selling Maltese puppies at 8 weeks is that they are not ready. I can speak for that as I am a breeder and if I sold my puppies at eight weeks old, they probably would not make it. They are still nursing at that age, and are not yet completely weaned. The problem is someone who is selling them at that age usually has the "get them out before they become a problem" kind of attitude. Maltese tend to get very rambonxious at that age and many non reputale breeders will try and get them out at that age as they are tearing up the wee pads, getting poo stuck on their butt, making a mess and being mouthy. You want someone that has their best interest at heart to be your breeder, because if they don't, you can be darn sure that is not the only thing they are doing wrong. Hypoglycemia is also very common at that age. I find that they learn a whole lot from their mom's around 8-12 weeks. This is a very crucial age. Even if a vet has told her that it's ok, that doesn't mean that it is. I find even with my vet, they just go by a general "puppy rule" While a lab or retriever may be ready to go at that age, a Maltese isn't.
> 
> Hope that has cleared up some of your questions. Do yourself a favor, do more research, look around until you find the perfect breeder who aces ALL of the questions, NOT most. This is a life we are talking about, not a little toy.
> 
> Moral of the story: You want to go with a breeder who has the best interest of the puppy..Someone selling them at 8 weeks doesn't likely have the puppy's best interest at heart.[/B]


Good Post.


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## lillady (Jan 25, 2007)

Well said Andrea :thumbsup: 



> Generally, the problem with selling Maltese puppies at 8 weeks is that they are not ready. I can speak for that as I am a breeder and if I sold my puppies at eight weeks old, they probably would not make it. They are still nursing at that age, and are not yet completely weaned. The problem is someone who is selling them at that age usually has the "get them out before they become a problem" kind of attitude. Maltese tend to get very rambonxious at that age and many non reputale breeders will try and get them out at that age as they are tearing up the wee pads, getting poo stuck on their butt, making a mess and being mouthy. You want someone that has their best interest at heart to be your breeder, because if they don't, you can be darn sure that is not the only thing they are doing wrong. Hypoglycemia is also very common at that age. I find that they learn a whole lot from their mom's around 8-12 weeks. This is a very crucial age. Even if a vet has told her that it's ok, that doesn't mean that it is. I find even with my vet, they just go by a general "puppy rule" While a lab or retriever may be ready to go at that age, a Maltese isn't.
> 
> Hope that has cleared up some of your questions. Do yourself a favor, do more research, look around until you find the perfect breeder who aces ALL of the questions, NOT most. This is a life we are talking about, not a little toy.
> 
> Moral of the story: You want to go with a breeder who has the best interest of the puppy..Someone selling them at 8 weeks doesn't likely have the puppy's best interest at heart.[/B]


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## cloey70 (Jan 6, 2008)

> Generally, the problem with selling Maltese puppies at 8 weeks is that they are not ready. I can speak for that as I am a breeder and if I sold my puppies at eight weeks old, they probably would not make it. They are still nursing at that age, and are not yet completely weaned. The problem is someone who is selling them at that age usually has the "get them out before they become a problem" kind of attitude. Maltese tend to get very rambonxious at that age and many non reputale breeders will try and get them out at that age as they are tearing up the wee pads, getting poo stuck on their butt, making a mess and being mouthy. You want someone that has their best interest at heart to be your breeder, because if they don't, you can be darn sure that is not the only thing they are doing wrong. Hypoglycemia is also very common at that age. I find that they learn a whole lot from their mom's around 8-12 weeks. This is a very crucial age. Even if a vet has told her that it's ok, that doesn't mean that it is. I find even with my vet, they just go by a general "puppy rule" While a lab or retriever may be ready to go at that age, a Maltese isn't.
> 
> Hope that has cleared up some of your questions. Do yourself a favor, do more research, look around until you find the perfect breeder who aces ALL of the questions, NOT most. This is a life we are talking about, not a little toy.
> 
> Moral of the story: You want to go with a breeder who has the best interest of the puppy..Someone selling them at 8 weeks doesn't likely have the puppy's best interest at heart.[/B]


Very well said. I do believe she has made her mind up, but I would wait 12 weeks too. A puppy at 12 weeks is way easier to deal with and handle too, especially with potty training. Clifford was kind of a challenge at 12 weeks, and I couldn't imagine what he was like at 8 weeks. Also, the howling at night they do seems to happen more with younger ones. Clifford didn't do this, and I believe it was his maturity. I would wait.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Any breeder who sells a Maltese puppy before twelve weeks old is in violation of the American Maltese Association's Code of Ethics. 

http://www.americanmaltese.org/ama_club_code_of_ethics.htm

That is a huge red flag and raises questions about whether she is following (or even aware of) the Code of Ethics. Specifically, does she health screen her Maltese? Maltese, like any other breed, are prone to certain genetic disorders including liver shunts, luxating patellas, Legg-Perthes, etc. Treatment for these conditions can run into the thousands.

Have you asked her what health screening she does? Many irresponsible breeders will try to pass yearly exams and vaccinations off as health screening. Don't be fooled. She should do bile acids tests to screen for liver disease, have knees xrayed for luxating patellas, have thyroid panels and eye exams done. Ask to see documentation that the parents of these puppies have been properly screened for inherited disease.

The AMA Code of Ethics also requires breeders to breed to the standard, the blueprint set out for the breed. If you want a puppy to grow up to look and act like a Maltese is supposed to, you must make sure she is breeding good representations of the breed. Of course you will love a puppy who grows to be twelve pounds and has a curly coat, but I am sure that is not what you expect your future Maltese to look like. If she doesn't have her dogs judged in the show ring, has she had them evaluated by show breeders? 

It's great you are asking questions and trying to make a good decision about who you get your future puppy from.


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## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

Yes, maturity does help for sure. For example, if she is selling a puppy at 8 weeks, that would mean, she either is not taking the time to wean them properly, or is doing so too early. 

Puppies need to be socialized and used to being away from their mom. So by adopting them out at twelve weeks, it usually gives more time on seperation from the mom hopefully. The puppy won't be as traumatized going to their new homes. At 8 weeks, my pups are all cuddling together and have very little reserve at that age if they were to get upset from being taken away from littermates and mom. So if they are screaming at night, with no reserve, that is when hypoglycemia will kick in and often can result in death of a puppy, not to mention being very traumatic. 

At 8 weeks, I am usually seperating them from mom during parts of the day, that way they can build independence..I am taking each puppy seperately out and playing with them to get them used to being "alone" and "away" from their littermates. They build a lot of confidence that way and a lot of independence. Again, that way they can be more confident and socialized when they go to their new home.  Hope that makes sense.

Also, I don't know about anyone else's puppies, but mine often don't have a lot of their puppy teeth in at 8 weeks and eating kibble is hard for them to do. I usually wet down the food at that age and put a little cottage cheese on top which helps with weaning. They still nurse ocassionally at that age for me. By 10 weeks, they are generally completely weaned for me. And when people take puppies home, they often aren't very experienced and don't realize how fragile these little precious bundles of joy can be. So it is the breeders resposniblity to look out for these little babies. It's great that the OP is asking questions before purchasing! :thumbsup:







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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Let me say this...about that. 

I got Abbey just as she was turning 8 weeks old. We had nutracal on hand in case of hypoglycemia and I gave her a tiny bit a few times. She is now three years old - healthy and happy.


BUT......if I had it to do again, I would have waited. Abbey is not only very yappy, she's a bit skiddish. I could be wrong, but I attribute that to being taken away from her mother at such a young age. 

The choice is yours here. The pup. if healthy, and you're there to moniter him/her will probably be just fine, I just know that there is such a big difference between 8 weeks and 12 weeks, my next puppy will be 12 weeks old before she comes home. 

BTW, I got Archie at 12 weeks and he is so much more laid back and sure of himself.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> I am getting a puppy from a breeder in Nebraska. So far, everything about the breeder seems perfect, except ONE thing. She, on advice from her Vet, lets her puppies go home at eight weeks providing that they are eating on their own well enough, etc.
> 
> She only raises maltese, and does so in her home. She is not a kennel. She gave references from a man living in my town- a full three hours away from her. He bought two of her pups, and his friends have bought some of her pups. He had nothing but praise, and I saw pics of the dogs. She sells with a limited AKC registration, so the pups can't be bred under registration. She is very knowledgable. She detests the "teacup" label, and says it is a scam. She is everything you could want in a breeder, except for the eight week old thing.
> 
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http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?...st&p=565678


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

About the friend... as I said before, this breeder and her friend run the breeding program. They have something in the realm of 10 dogs between the two of them. It doesn't raise a red flag to me at all. 

Honestly, I am completely unconcerned about being "ripped off" in this situation. That is the least of my worries. I have gotten about 100 pictures of the puppy and related dogs- sire, dam, other pups that they have bred. I highly doubt a scam artist would be sending literally a 100+ pictures of themselves with the dogs, puppies, home, etc. 

I really appreciate everyone's concern on that point, but it is misplaced in this case.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> About the friend... as I said before, this breeder and her friend run the breeding program. They have something in the realm of 10 dogs between the two of them. It doesn't raise a red flag to me at all.
> 
> Honestly, I am completely unconcerned about being "ripped off" in this situation. That is the least of my worries. I have gotten about 100 pictures of the puppy and related dogs- sire, dam, other pups that they have bred. I highly doubt a scam artist would be sending literally a 100+ pictures of themselves with the dogs, puppies, home, etc.
> 
> I really appreciate everyone's concern on that point, but it is misplaced in this case. [/B]


You have clearly already made up your mind and you are going to do whatever you want, in spite of what anyone here says...


Remind me again EXACTLY what the point was of your first post in this thread?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

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[attachment=36519:goodpost.gif]

It does get frustrating when newbies ask questions and we take a lot of time to try to answer them only to be ignored, doesn't it?


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Is it just me, or does this thread appear to be a bit fishy? :huh:


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

I tried, I tried really, really hard to not get emotional about this thread ......... but ....... I just cant help myself!!!




> Generally, the problem with selling Maltese puppies at 8 weeks is that they are not ready. I can speak for that as I am a breeder and if I sold my puppies at eight weeks old, they probably would not make it. They are still nursing at that age, and are not yet completely weaned. The problem is someone who is selling them at that age usually has the "get them out before they become a problem" kind of attitude. Maltese tend to get very rambonxious at that age and many non reputale breeders will try and get them out at that age as they are tearing up the wee pads, getting poo stuck on their butt, making a mess and being mouthy. You want someone that has their best interest at heart to be your breeder, because if they don't, you can be darn sure that is not the only thing they are doing wrong. Hypoglycemia is also very common at that age. I find that they learn a whole lot from their mom's around 8-12 weeks. This is a very crucial age. Even if a vet has told her that it's ok, that doesn't mean that it is. I find even with my vet, they just go by a general "puppy rule" While a lab or retriever may be ready to go at that age, a Maltese isn't.
> 
> Hope that has cleared up some of your questions. Do yourself a favor, do more research, look around until you find the perfect breeder who aces ALL of the questions, NOT most. This is a life we are talking about, not a little toy.
> 
> Moral of the story: You want to go with a breeder who has the best interest of the puppy..Someone selling them at 8 weeks doesn't likely have the puppy's best interest at heart.[/B]


Andrea, whilst I respect your opinion, and advice as a breeder, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. In particular, with your comment that


> "and if I sold my puppies at eight weeks old, they probably would not make it"[/B]


.

The reason I disagree is that I really do believe that it's a case by case basis. No puppy is the exact same as another, to that I'm sure you'd agree.

For example, the first time I met Dakota, she was 5 weeks old, and I was in weekly contact with her breeder after that. When I first met her at 5 weeks old, the breeder couldn't give me a date when I could collect her, and rightly so, he had her best interest at heart and he would be the judge of when she was 'ready'. As it turned out, Dakota wanted nothing to do with her mother after 6 weeks old, she was totally weaned. Her breeder offered her to me at 8 weeks, and due to my schedule, I asked him to hold her until 9 weeks, when I could take time off work (2 weeks) to be with her.

I might add - Dakota's breeder shows his dogs, and is also in the process of studying and taking exams to become a show judge. In my opinion, he is VERY responsible for his dogs, and the Maltese breeding program at large. I am very proud to have one of his 'dogs'.

I am still yet to see compelling reasons for the "12 week rule" - I know I'm just repeating myself, but the "12 week rule" does not exist here in Au. - Which is not to say I did not seek my vet's advice when bringing Dakota home at 9 weeks old. My vet advised that 8 - 9 weeks was 'fine', but he would be concerned at any younger.

To the OP, I wish you all the very best with your new pup. It sounds like you have a good handle on things, and asking for opinions is always a good thing! Ultimately, only YOU can decide what you think is best.


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

I have to agree with Jac - ALL my pups have come to me between the ages of 8 and 9 weeks ( as is the norm in Australia ) . All my dogs at this age were well socialized and confident . I must say I often wonder if the hypoglycemia cases often quoted here - have more to do with an American dogs predominantly kibble diet ( Aussie dogs have a far more varied diet )What causes hypoglycemia? Hypoglycemia is usually due to an inadequate intake of food, or by using up all stored energy without it being replenished. (For example, when your puppy plays for an extended period of time without eating.) Also, anything that stresses the puppy such as going to a new home, bacterial infections, or Coccidiosis can also trigger hypoglycemia. (Coccidia is a protozoan infection that many puppies and adult dogs carry, that usually remains dormant and causes no problems until a stressful situation arises.) When a puppy is under stress, they may lose their appetite and not get proper nutrition. Sarah


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I really wish you would give some thought to what everyone says and then make a decision, if not, then I wish you the best of luck. :biggrin:


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

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The point of this post was to discover if anyone had any _scientific_ evidence of the 12 week rule being valid (If you read for content you would know that). Thank you all, you have been very helpful and confirmed that there is indeed NO solid evidence to support this rule. Therefore, I am all the more determined to go ahead with the puppy. 

May I remind you that not all "newbies" are complete idiots, and do not deserve to be treated as such. I am quite apalled, in fact, at the level of hostility that some posters here have shown, and without any direct provocation. That said, there are several people who have been very kind and helpful.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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As I had said in the other thread on this topic, it would be difficult, I imagine, to get funding for a research study on the 12-week rule. There really wouldn't be a compelling reason to do research because good breeders have been doing informal reseach for years .... they have litters ... they see the problems... they see how the puppies grow and develop. So from their FIRST-HAND experience they see that it would be in the puppy's best interest to wait until 12 weeks before leaving his first home. 

My guess is that most vets have a general knowledge of when it's best for a puppy to leave its first home but they probably are not specifically familiar with Malts or other toy breeds, in this regard. My (former) vet said 7 or 8 weeks was fine. I got two Malts at 8 weeks and then got Catcher at just about 12 weeks. I saw a huge difference in the way he adapted. It was much less traumatic for him than it was for them. 

I think there are exceptions and I think some puppies may do fine leaving earlier. However, responsible breeders tend to feel that it is safer to have the 12-week rule apply to all. It really can't hurt to have a general 12-week rule and my thought is that it's "better safe than sorry"...


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I am getting a puppy from a breeder in Nebraska. So far, everything about the breeder seems perfect, except ONE thing. She, on advice from her Vet, lets her puppies go home at eight weeks providing that they are eating on their own well enough, etc.
> 
> She only raises maltese, and does so in her home. She is not a kennel. She gave references from a man living in my town- a full three hours away from her. He bought two of her pups, and his friends have bought some of her pups. He had nothing but praise, and I saw pics of the dogs. She sells with a limited AKC registration, so the pups can't be bred under registration. She is very knowledgable. She detests the "teacup" label, and says it is a scam. She is everything you could want in a breeder, except for the eight week old thing.
> 
> ...


You mention that you had to hunt through the internet for months before finding this woman. Surely in all of that research you must have stumbled upon the many large and small show breeders who do follow the 12-week rule and who don't make a living off of selling their Malts. I'm not sure what was so appealing to you about this particular breeder.


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

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I don't believe that I ever suggested that you are a complete idiot and if you got that impression, I'd like to apoligize.

Secondly, with respect to your comment on "scientific evidence", I'm a MSEE, so I do have some basic familarity with the concept.

As Sher said, if you are expecting to find "scientific evidence" which is peer reviewed and accepted in just about any field as complex as behavior, you are going to be disappointed... and that includes human behavior ... much less little white dogs! I'd love to do that sort of research myself... but I am having a hard time getting an adequate sample size to have a large enough control group... :smheat: 

What the people here did try to do was give you enough ancillary information on both sides of the issue for you to make your own judgement... which I believe is about the best that anyone can do.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I was trying to stay out of this thread except to say that one poster had made a good post. 

BUT after seeing the way that you have came back and accused people treating you like an idiot I can not just sit by and say nothing. 

YOU came to SM and asked for evidence. Is not the experience of other fellow human being evidence enough? It seems that you had your mind made up before ever starting this thread. Is this not Facts? So whatever anyone has to say you will take it as an insult and want to dispute their comments. 

Me myself being a breeder KNOW FOR A FACT that the fear imprint period on a puppy is between the ages of 8-11 weeks. 

So can you tell me when you bring your new puppy home at 8 weeks will you be willing not to do your normal activities such as......
Blow Drying your hair
Using a Vacuum Cleaner
Washing dishes in the sink
Place things in the dryer that have a button that could make a loud noise
Take your pup to the vet for his/her checkup

The reason I am asking you this is because during the 8-11 weeks fear imprint period everyone of those things can scare him/her towards them. And then they hate it in the future. So is this a chance worth taking to you? I would hope not.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

IMO, the fact that the parent club states that Maltese puppies should not be sold before twelve weeks old is as close to a scientific study as you are going to get. If you looked at the link I posted in my first post, it shows the developmental differences between Maltese and large breed puppies and the rationale behind the twelve week rule. You have also gotten good firsthand advice from responsible Maltese breeders who are members here.

The twleve week rule is not exclusive to Maltese. If you go to the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America, they also advise breeders to keep puppies until they are 12 weeks old. Toy breed puppies are very different from larger breed puppies.

I think the real question should be if there is a scientific study to show why breeders *should not * follow the guidelines of the parent club. The primary reason breeders sell puppies earlier than 12 is financial which is why it is a tip off that the breeder may be cutting costs in other ways, too, like health testing.

Another consideration not to sell Maltese puppy before 12 weeks is that 8-11 weeks is the Fear Imprint Period. Shipping a puppy, a long car ride, the unfamiliar sights and sounds of a new home, or any traumatic, painful or frightening experiences will have a more lasting impact on your puppy than they would if they occurred at any other time. An stressful car trip, for instance, during this period could forever make your dog nervous in the car.


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## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

You came asking for advice and opinions and don't seem to want to hear anything that may be derogatory. I like in Nebraska and visited several of the main maltese breeders within driving distance and looked them up online and paid to see the reviews by customers with breeder states and names on the other big maltese site. No one in Nebraska as far as I have found is reputable particularly anyone who wants to sell maltese at 8 weeks old. Nebraska is one of the puppymill states and I had ot go elsewhere to obtain my maltese Shiloh and am very happy I did.


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## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

Correction: I LIVE in Nebraska and visited all the breeders within a 3 hour drive and was not happy with what I saw and read by other customers so it is very likely I met your breeder. Everyone soulds wonderful on the phone and anyone can put up a pretty site. I hope you have the fund ready if the pup is sick in any way at all which in my opinion is very likely. Thats a chance you are taking and the pup may cost you far more in bills and heartache in the long run.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Goodness, I wish all this sensitive/critical period versus health issues weren't so complicated in toy breeds. I'm really trying to keep an open mind about this, so I'll post a link which explains some of the hypoglycemia concerns. This is actually more what I have been looking for as far as articles for the reasons for the 12 week rule:


http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_toy_b...poglycemia.html


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> Goodness, I wish all this sensitive/critical period versus health issues weren't so complicated in toy breeds. I'm really trying to keep an open mind about this, so I'll post a link which explains some of the hypoglycemia concerns. This is actually more what I have been looking for as far as articles for the reasons for the 12 week rule:
> http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_toy_b...poglycemia.html[/B]


I love that website! I've used it for many question. There is a lot of great info there on many subjects.
I've stayed out of this because the OP obviously didn't want anything but a "scientific" study about the 12 wk. rule, and obviously there is no such study. Every puppy is to some degree a different size and stage of maturity at 8 wks., but 12 wks. is a safe bet and why is it so important for her to get the puppy at 8 wks.? She just can't wait? 

Hypoglycemia........regardless of age can be made worse if the 'patient' is being fed a high carbohydrate diet. What are carbs in kibble? Corn, or other milled grain, sugars, and so forth.....Just another reason I believe dogs where not supposed to be fed "kibble". Luckily some companies are now making some dry foods without all that filler stuff so folks who must have the convenience of dry dog food have a better choice. I think small puppies should have a better source of nourishment then a bunch of pellets of dry material. :huh: Just me. B)


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

> Another consideration not to sell Maltese puppy before 12 weeks is that 8-11 weeks is the Fear Imprint Period. Shipping a puppy, a long car ride, the unfamiliar sights and sounds of a new home, or any traumatic, painful or frightening experiences will have a more lasting impact on your puppy than they would if they occurred at any other time. An stressful car trip, for instance, during this period could forever make your dog nervous in the car.[/B]



Just wanted to note that this doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULDN'T get a puppy under twelve weeks because of the fear imprint period- it just means that one must be more careful to make sure the car ride/trip is not an adverse, cold, impersonal experience for the puppy. I really think it's a good idea to do some coddling during the trip for a puppy of any age. There's some great ideas for how to the puppy to it's new home in the book "Puppy's First Steps" (from the faculty of the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University)



Joy


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

> Me myself being a breeder KNOW FOR A FACT that the fear imprint period on a puppy is between the ages of 8-11 weeks.
> 
> So can you tell me when you bring your new puppy home at 8 weeks will you be willing not to do your normal activities such as......
> Blow Drying your hair
> ...


A bit off topic, but as a breeder, do you refrain from doing these activities when you have puppies in your house? I guess I never gave much thought to this. I would have assumed that from birth, the breeder would continue life and day-today activities and the puppies would become accustomed to these sounds. Therefore, when the puppy went to its new home, these sounds wouldn't be frightening. That is a very interesting remark and it has sparked my curiosity.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

My experience: 

1. First dog: a poodle puppy at 8 weeks old. He was a fearful mess most of his life.

2. Second dog: Bichon who was moved away from her mom at 8 weeks old. I didn't get her until 12 weeks, but the point is she was taken from her mom at 8 weeks. She was fearful of _everything_ - noises, people, other animals. She freaked out every time I had to put her in the car. She also was afraid of all loud noises. She was even afraid of the noise from squeak toys!!

3. Got Nikki at 18 weeks old, a little later than most. She is a little shy, but mostly fearless, calm, and well-adjusted. 


I personally think that 12-16 weeks is a good age because it's much easier to train a dog that hasn't had a lot of previous fear imprints. Not everything is backed up by science, and science can be flawed. 

It's an individual decision but there are many well-experienced people on this site who are here to help. That doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they say and I am sure that no one minds if you respectfully disagree. We're all here for the same reason, because we love dogs and want the best lives for them.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Yes when they are at this stage and I have things to do around the house they are in their room with the fan running to drown out the outside noises. I call it their nap time. Puppies at this age still sleep a lot. My schedule for them is to get them up in the morning when I get up and let them have free run for about three hours. And then put them to bed for a few hours to get everything done. Then they are up for the rest of the day until bed time at around 8:00pm.

After the fear imprint stage I start introducing them to daily activities. I have learned that letting my puppies go at 13-16 weeks is so much better than even the 12 weeks. Because not only this it also gives me time to teach them the piddle pad better and even to go outside and potty in the mornings. But this is me. And not all breeders hold their puppies till 4 months of age. And I would not argue the fact of the older. 

I will stress the 12 week rule though. Because I have seen it first hand.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Suzy's Mom, I like the sound of the way you care for your puppies.  

Here's some "anecdotal experience" since I agree that it is difficult to get scientific evidence on these issues.

My Spunky is quite a special case. Spunky was about 8 weeks and 6 days when I got him. A very tiny creature, even though he grew up to be over the standard. His body was about the size of a bar of soap. 

Unfortunately I could not control everything in his environment. I lived in an apartment building and carried him around in a shoebox with a towel in it to get him used to things andpeople ... but one of my neighbors, an old man with some form of dementia, went out of his way to terrorize him. Other people encouraged him to play-fight and bite their fingers--they thought it was cute. I didn' t like those things, so I ended up having to isolate him more than was good for him.  

Another part of that problem is that there was a lot of parvo in our area, and the vets did not want me to take him many places until he was really fully vaccinated.

And he loves me and some of my closest relatives and friends, and the nice young ladies who care for him at the vet. Sometimes it is hard to get him off our laps. :biggrin: But otherwise he is not a generally friendly dog, and I can not take him a lot of places.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

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Nicole, when I read your post it reminded me of something that happened with Kallie. From the day I brought her home at 8 weeks she was terrified when I would take out a pot or pan in the kitchen. In fact as soon as we were in the kitchen she would beg to be picked up. Oftentimes she would run to her crate when I was handling pots and pans. 

I couldn't imagine why she was this way from the very beginning. Then eventually it "hit" me... her breeder, a lady who bred her two pet-store Malts, :brownbag: had the mom and puppies in a huge wire crate in the kitchen. So yes, as people like to say, they were raised "under foot" for sure but I'm thinking that even before the fear imprint period, she must have been frightened by the kitchen noises. And they had a toddler so he may have even played with the pots and pans, as kids sometimes do. I had a trainer here back when Catcher was a puppy and she said that Kallie had an intolerance for loud noise and that I should not use anything like coins in a can for training her as she was so afraid of loud noise.

She is better about it now but I also take extra pains not to let the pots and pans do any clanging when taking them out, putting them away, etc.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

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Becky, from all the books and articles I've been reading, it is very detrimental to puppy's mental health to NOT expose them to anything at all during this fear period. Yes, you want to be careful how puppies are handled during this period, but you ARE supposed to introduce the puppies to normal everyday household activities and low key type people. Please do some more research on this. Google "critical period for puppies", "sensitive period for puppies", and look for credible sites which give information. Also, there's a great book titled "Puppy's First Steps" which is an awesome resource for breeders, puppy owners, and future puppy owners.

Here's an online link which gives an explanation of what to do for proper socialization:

DogChannel.com article


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

I had read of the fear imprint periods before and then read up on it again when we were raising Snowy's babies. I was able to find different sites each with slightly different information on exactly when those imprint periods were. I do beleve there are multiple periods and my take from the conflicting info was that there were various periods of fear imprinting not that a period lasts exactly from x week to y week (as an example).

Also, I did not take this information as "do not engage in this or that activitity" but I took it as to be very carefull about the pups reaction to some activity.

I keep going back to our dog with autistic like behavior, Max for an example... but to this day (at about 4.5 years old) Max is pretty scared of the vaccum cleaner. If someone is running it in the house, Max will run outside and then watch to see when it is turned off before comming back in. So with all of Snowy's babies, we took specific pains to bring the vaccum cleaner out and let them all check it out indivually. When we ran it, we did so while holding pups in our arms (to be more aware of their reactions and to try and calm them). We tried to expose them to other things such as a car ride in a carefully controlled way too. 

The poster was asking about science to back up one POV or another. I am certain there is science behind this entire fear imprint issue... but with any behavior issues like this, it is another thing entirely to assume what a dog's reactions and long term issues might be, as a result of a couple of negative exposures. 

Evaluating the science of this becomes this becomes really difficult when you are looking at something as complex as behavior. Too many variables and all of that. It is sort of like studies you hear of children from a certain type of family situation versus a child from a different type of situation. There are plenty of examples of both being well adjusted. Since the science of this tends to involve so many variables, etc, the point that I was trying to make was to approach these sorts of things as conservatively as possible and why not give any pup you are raising as large of a chance to be well adjusted as is possible... not that if you don't do this, your pup will not be well adjusted.

Oh heck... I am tired of this thread now....


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

> I had read of the fear imprint periods before and then read up on it again when we were raising Snowy's babies. I was able to find different sites each with slightly different information on exactly when those imprint periods were. I do beleve there are multiple periods and my take from the conflicting info was that there were various periods of fear imprinting not that a period lasts exactly from x week to y week (as an example).
> 
> Also, I did not take this information as "do not engage in this or that activitity" but I took it as to be very carefull about the pups reaction to some activity.
> 
> ...





Steve, don't get me started on the variables. . . . .You're right, there are many more variables than genetics and socialization - such as the effect of maternal nutrition on the puppies . . . . also, there's research that's shown that if if the mother is stressed at certain points in the pregnancy the puppies will grow up to be fearful, or will show reduced learning abilities. . .or may show some extreme or exaggerated behaviors . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 




 


Joy


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

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Yes when they are at this stage and I have things to do around the house they are in their room with the fan running to drown out the outside noises. I call it their nap time. Puppies at this age still sleep a lot. My schedule for them is to get them up in the morning when I get up and let them have free run for about three hours. And then put them to bed for a few hours to get everything done. Then they are up for the rest of the day until bed time at around 8:00pm.

After the fear imprint stage I start introducing them to daily activities. I have learned that letting my puppies go at 13-16 weeks is so much better than even the 12 weeks. Because not only this it also gives me time to teach them the piddle pad better and even to go outside and potty in the mornings. But this is me. And not all breeders hold their puppies till 4 months of age. And I would not argue the fact of the older. 

I will stress the 12 week rule though. Because I have seen it first hand.
[/B][/QUOTE]



Becky, from all the books and articles I've been reading, it is very detrimental to puppy's mental health to NOT expose them to anything at all during this fear period. Yes, you want to be careful how puppies are handled during this period, but you ARE supposed to introduce the puppies to normal everyday household activities and low key type people. Please do some more research on this. Google "critical period for puppies", "sensitive period for puppies", and look for credible sites which give information. Also, there's a great book titled "Puppy's First Steps" which is an awesome resource for breeders, puppy owners, and future puppy owners.

Here's an online link which gives an explanation of what to do for proper socialization:

DogChannel.com article
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you Joy. I will definitely be getting that book and book marking the link so I can have it handy. The puppies are what are the most important and me doing it the right way only insures that they are healthy well rounded adults. :wub: 


Boy I have really gone off topic. Sorry everyone. B)


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I'm not sure when this turned into a discussion of imprinting fear at a certain age.......but it's an interesting topic.

Variables galore! I know for instance of a certain litter where one puppy is outgoing and the other is shy and uncertain--raised in the exact same 24/7 situation. I'm sure all litters are in fact that way. Even identical twin humans raised in the same home will have different fears or degrees of assurance (I'm thinking of my DH's twin brothers). I'm thinking there is some 'born with' brain-wiring that we don't understand. That is why all living creatures have their own set of personality characteristics.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I had read of the fear imprint periods before and then read up on it again when we were raising Snowy's babies. I was able to find different sites each with slightly different information on exactly when those imprint periods were. I do beleve there are multiple periods and my take from the conflicting info was that there were various periods of fear imprinting not that a period lasts exactly from x week to y week (as an example).
> 
> Also, I did not take this information as "do not engage in this or that activitity" but I took it as to be very carefull about the pups reaction to some activity.
> 
> ...


Steve, I think this is an excellent point that you make .... for me this really sums it all up: 



> Since the science of this tends to involve so many variables, etc, the point that I was trying to make was to approach these sorts of things as conservatively as possible and why not give any pup you are raising as large of a chance to be well adjusted as is possible... not that if you don't do this, your pup will not be well adjusted.[/B]


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

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No you are right Joy... I also remember reading information down that line too (and we tried also to apply it with Snowy) but I totally over looked mentioning it.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I personally feel that we have so many years to spend with our little furkids. I don't mind waiting another month if there is a chance that we will live a better life for the years to come. Cookie, Sparkle, Cupcake and Jellybean all came home at 14 weeks. Nibbler and Waffle were 6 months. I wouldn't change that but I have also had friends who got puppies at a much younger age without any problems.

To the original poster, since you are happy with all other aspects of the breeder .. why not just ask her to keep the pup for 4 more weeks. I am sure any good breeder wouldn't mind keeping the pup for a month longer. Trust me .. that 4 weeks would go by quicker than you think (well maybe not that quick). It will give you more time to puppy proof and get all the goodies!


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## domino_angel (Apr 17, 2008)

> I personally feel that we have so many years to spend with our little furkids. I don't mind waiting another month if there is a chance that we will live a better life for the years to come. Cookie, Sparkle, Cupcake and Jellybean all came home at 14 weeks. Nibbler and Waffle were 6 months. I wouldn't change that but I have also had friends who got puppies at a much younger age without any problems.
> 
> To the original poster, since you are happy with all other aspects of the breeder .. why not just ask her to keep the pup for 4 more weeks. I am sure any good breeder wouldn't mind keeping the pup for a month longer. Trust me .. that 4 weeks would go by quicker than you think (well maybe not that quick). It will give you more time to puppy proof and get all the goodies![/B]


You know, that is an excellent suggestion. I have actually already considered it. The main reason I have for doing that would be to let the pup socialize with its litter-mates longer. The catch there is that the litter-mates are all going home at about 8 weeks-- that makes it pointless. So then I thought, "Well, she'd at least have time with her mommy" but that isn't necessarily the case either. She would be weaned by then, so the mommy probably wouldn't have much to do with her. Right? That's what I have gathered anyhow. The only other reason would be to let her get a little bigger, stronger, or whatnot. I may throw the idea out there just to see what she says. Even an extra week or two might be helpful?

Another thing, I have put down a deposit, however the deposit is really rather tiny. It's really more of a token than a typical deposit. If I get there and am surprised by the situation, I would be losing a pittance.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Sounds like you are planning on visiting this breeder afterall? After what Shiloh's Mom said, I think it's a good idea even if gas prices are high.

Why don't you pm Shiloh's Mom and ask her if she visited this particular breeder? I'm sure she would keep your information private.

Even if her littermates are gone, your puppy will still learn valuable lessons from her mother. Bite inhibiton is a big one.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I don't think the moms will completely abandon their babies even though they are weaned. Maybe a breeder can chime in here. From what I have seen, the mothers still stick around and care for the babies. They aren't with them all the time but they still care for them. Either way, congrats on your new pup and I can't wait to see her photos!


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## Max & Rocky (May 20, 2004)

> I don't think the moms will completely abandon their babies even though they are weaned. Maybe a breeder can chime in here. From what I have seen, the mothers still stick around and care for the babies. They aren't with them all the time but they still care for them. Either way, congrats on your new pup and I can't wait to see her photos![/B]


You are right.

Snowy would actually lie down and try to nurse even after she was dry... Snowy (the mom) and Cooper (one of the sons) went to the same house together. Even if the mom is not trying to nurse, trust me, there are still lessons going on and the baby is still learning to socialize with another dog...


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

> I don't think the moms will completely abandon their babies even though they are weaned. Maybe a breeder can chime in here. From what I have seen, the mothers still stick around and care for the babies. They aren't with them all the time but they still care for them. Either way, congrats on your new pup and I can't wait to see her photos![/B]


During this stage the mom is still with the puppies playing and teaching them basic behaviors. This is the time where they learn pack order. I also have the puppies around the other adults. This also teaches them the basics such as bite inhibition. 

OP I am proud to hear that you are going to the breeders home. That in itself makes me and I know a few other's feel better. Just remember two things that I always tell people when looking for a pup. That is to ask a lot of questions and if the breeder does not give you a direct answer walk away. She or any responsible breeder should be able to answer the questions. Make a list and take it with you also. That is another thing I always tell people. 

I wish you and your new baby the very best.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

There is *NO* scientific evidence concerning the 12 week rule..............nor is there any research being done or looked at for the near future. However, there are *countless years* of experience of toy dog breeders to back up the reasoning behind the current 12 week rule protocol for most toy breeds in the US.  

Why should you trust the experience of someone who has spent their whole life in a breed as opposed to a vet who went to school for 4 to 6 years and had to learn about numerous other animal species as well as dogs.................yuppers that vet is going to know everything there is about every species of dog.............*NOT*!!! For example most vet schools only have a few hours on nutrition, so many hours on reproduction, etc. In fact a few years ago I had to help my vet hand raise some puppies since he had no clue what to feed them or even how much to feed a newborn....................he was Valedictorian of his particular class at Colorado State Veterinary College.  

As for the Australian Maltese not having the 12 week rule.............I know that their standard is different than ours. For the most part US Maltese are smaller than most of the other Maltese from around the world. This is the one of the things that I can think of that would make a difference. I am sure thee are others. 

The toy dog breeders in the US did not pull this number out of their hat and it is definitely not cheaper to keep them an extra 4 weeks. The reputable toy dog breeders do it because it is the right thing to do for their puppies as well as their puppy buyers.

As for all of the trainers that say the optimum age is 8 weeks.............all I can say is that they must have had zero experience with most toy breeds!!!  

Just my humble opinion.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> There is *NO* scientific evidence concerning the 12 week rule..............nor is there any research being done or looked at for the near future. However, there are *countless years* of experience of toy dog breeders to back up the reasoning behind the current 12 week rule protocol for most toy breeds in the US.
> 
> Why should you trust the experience of someone who has spent their whole life in a breed as opposed to a vet who went to school for 4 to 6 years and had to learn about numerous other animal species as well as dogs.................yuppers that vet is going to know everything there is about every species of dog.............*NOT*!!! For example most vet schools only have a few hours on nutrition, so many hours on reproduction, etc. In fact a few years ago I had to help my vet hand raise some puppies since he had no clue what to feed them or even how much to feed a newborn....................he was Valedictorian of his particular class at Colorado State Veterinary College.
> 
> ...


[attachment=36619:goodpost.gif] Excellent info!! Thank you so much for sharing your expertise!!!


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> I don't think the moms will completely abandon their babies even though they are weaned. Maybe a breeder can chime in here. From what I have seen, the mothers still stick around and care for the babies. They aren't with them all the time but they still care for them. Either way, congrats on your new pup and I can't wait to see her photos![/B]


I have some moms that will not leave their puppies for anything. In fact, I have one girl that refuses to leave her singleton puppy and he is now 2 years old. :biggrin: I also have several girls here that all play nanny anytime they have a chance with puppies............one girl in particular loves puppies to such a degree that she took over a whole litter of 8 week old puppies and even started living and sleeping with them .............. luckily the real mom was more than happy for the the other girl to take over :smheat: 

8 to 12 weeks is when most of my puppies learn their puppy/dog etiquette.


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## binniebee (Sep 27, 2007)

> There is *NO* scientific evidence concerning the 12 week rule..............nor is there any research being done or looked at for the near future. However, there are *countless years* of experience of toy dog breeders to back up the reasoning behind the current 12 week rule protocol for most toy breeds in the US.
> 
> Why should you trust the experience of someone who has spent their whole life in a breed as opposed to a vet who went to school for 4 to 6 years and had to learn about numerous other animal species as well as dogs.................yuppers that vet is going to know everything there is about every species of dog.............*NOT*!!! For example most vet schools only have a few hours on nutrition, so many hours on reproduction, etc. In fact a few years ago I had to help my vet hand raise some puppies since he had no clue what to feed them or even how much to feed a newborn....................he was Valedictorian of his particular class at Colorado State Veterinary College.
> 
> ...


It think you make a very good point about the standards, or the average size, perhaps, of Maltese in the US vs AU. I have gotten the impression that they are on an average larger in AU than most are in the US. The last two Malts I have had (in the US) would have looked about average or small next to the average AU Malt, I think, yet weighing between 8-11 lbs each they were/are considered way over sized here. (I am SO tired of running into people who ask me what breed Midis is since I have had him clipped down and then say they have one and theirs' is so much smaller: Yes! I KNOW THAT!) 

And I agree that all Vets do not know about all breeds. You have to do the research yourself.

Cyndi


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> There is *NO* scientific evidence concerning the 12 week rule..............nor is there any research being done or looked at for the near future. However, there are *countless years* of experience of toy dog breeders to back up the reasoning behind the current 12 week rule protocol for most toy breeds in the US.
> 
> Why should you trust the experience of someone who has spent their whole life in a breed as opposed to a vet who went to school for 4 to 6 years and had to learn about numerous other animal species as well as dogs.................yuppers that vet is going to know everything there is about every species of dog.............*NOT*!!! For example most vet schools only have a few hours on nutrition, so many hours on reproduction, etc. In fact a few years ago I had to help my vet hand raise some puppies since he had no clue what to feed them or even how much to feed a newborn....................he was Valedictorian of his particular class at Colorado State Veterinary College.
> 
> ...


[attachment=36620:goodpost.gif]

Thank you for sharing your expertise. I gave the OP the link to your excellent article on the twelve week rule on your website. I think that is the best explanation I have ever read and post the link frequently.


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

> Thank you for sharing your expertise. I gave the OP the link to your excellent article on the twelve week rule on your website. I think that is the best explanation I have ever read and post the link frequently.[/B]


I am glad that the article that I wrote concerning the 12 week rule has been helpful. :biggrin:


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