# A little sick to my stomach, breeders who sell or give away parents



## Hokeydays (Jul 11, 2011)

I know there are some really great breeders who love all their dogs z(you know who you are). I started looking today for a Maltese from a reputable breeder, one thing I noticed over and over is how breeders describe their dogs as "part of the family."

Yet in just a couple of hours of searching I came across 2 separate ads where breeders were selling or giving away adult Maltese dogs that had been the parents of previous litters they bred. If these dogs "were" part of the family, how can they now part with a member of the family, only because the dogs had served their purpose.

I know this is probably the exception, but it makes me a little cynical that for some breeders, it is just a racket to try and charge thousands of dollars for dogs that are "AKC" and "raised with the family in our loving home."

I do not mean to offend the majority of honest and loving breeders out there, I just had to share my observations. 
:wub:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

If the breeder is a reputable show breeder and is placing the dogs that are not longer being used in a breeding program, I honestly see nothing wrong with that. Sometimes being a good breeder means thinking about what is best for their dogs and keeping every single dog you've bred, shown and retired could almost turn into animal hoarding depending on how much breeding you are doing. 

If I place an adult, it's _because_ I love that dog that I'm placing them in a good pet home where they will get undivided attention with doting parents, not because I'm trying to be a 'racket'. 

Show breeders main goal for breeding is to produce their next show dog and even if you keep one or two puppy a year and show and finish and use in your breeding program, in 5 years time, that is an additional 5-10 dogs you've added to your household. That adds up! I think you are looking at it as being cruel when in reality, it is not cruel. Dogs adapt very well with new families. 

You need to make sure you know what the difference is between a good reputable show breeder and one that just breeds for profit. Show breeders typically place their retirees for the place of spay/neuter and a dental and just want the best home possible for their dogs. There is nothing wrong with this and I'm sorry if it makes you sick to your stomach. Good luck finding your perfect baby!


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## Silkmalteselover (Apr 1, 2010)

bellaratamaltese said:


> If the breeder is a reputable show breeder and is placing the dogs that are not longer being used in a breeding program, I honestly see nothing wrong with that. Sometimes being a good breeder means thinking about what is best for their dogs and keeping every single dog you've bred, shown and retired could almost turn into animal hoarding depending on how much breeding you are doing.
> 
> If I place an adult, it's _because_ I love that dog that I'm placing them in a good pet home where they will get undivided attention with doting parents, not because I'm trying to be a 'racket'.
> 
> ...


 Stacy :thumbsup: You expressed it perfectly why breeders do place older dogs in homes. The first time I did it is was very very hard, but when carefully choosing the right homes these dogs live fabulous lives.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't know what to tell you. I know my baby's breeder still has every single one of her dogs enfolded in her love. But she keeps her breeding very small., and that is part of the reason I love her so much. Yet, I see that many breeders who have contributed to the advancement of our beloved breed, have expanded so much that they can't keep all their dogs. It is something that you need to view with a very open mind. Try not to make to make any judgements until you see the full perspective...which very likely will never be. Just because a breeder finds it necessary to sell or give away some of their breeding stock doesn't mean they are heartless scoundrels. It may just mean that they can't handle the burden, and know they can find very loving homes for their kids.

Or...they may be cruel, unloving people who don't want to feed the loosers who aren't going to win ribbons.

There are all kinds of people in this world we share, but the majority are well meaning.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Sylie said:


> I don't know what to tell you. I know my baby's breeder still has every single one of her dogs enfolded in her love. But she keeps her breeding very small., and that is part of the reason I love her so much. Yet, I see that many breeders who have contributed to the advancement of our beloved breed, have expanded so much that they can't keep all their dogs. It is something that you need to view with a very open mind. Try not to make to make any judgements until you see the full perspective...which very likely will never be. Just because a breeder finds it necessary to sell or give away some of their breeding stock doesn't mean they are heartless scoundrels. It may just mean that they can't handle the burden, and know they can find very loving homes for their kids.
> 
> *Or...they may be cruel, unloving people who don't want to feed the loosers who aren't going to win ribbons.*
> 
> There are all kinds of people in this world we share, but the majority are well meaning.


I actually find the statement in bold to be unfair in most circumstances, esp. since it seems to be geared towards show breeders, since backyard breeders could care less about 'ribbons'. If I want to keep my breeding program small (which I whole heartedly do), I cannot keep every single one of my dogs. It surely is not easy for me to place any of my dogs, especially ones that have been with me for a long time - but if I want to move my program forward, tough choices have to be made.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Good people know their limits, whether it's about dogs or kids or even inanimate objects. Every good breeder knows that they can properly care for X number of dogs. If every good breeder stopped breeding when they hit X because they should not place their retirees in loving pet homes then our only place to turn for our next bundle of furry love is to a pet shop that sells puppies straight out of high volume commercial breeding facilities. So pick your poison ... a puppy from a breeder who wants to be able to give proper love, care and attention to all the dogs in his/her home or a puppy from a mill. I know what my choice would be.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

Silkmalteselover said:


> Stacy :thumbsup: You expressed it perfectly why breeders do place older dogs in homes. The first time I did it is was very very hard, but when carefully choosing the right homes these dogs live fabulous lives.



@ Stacy & Jeanne:goodpost::goodpost:s


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Reputable show breeders have to do that - or else they would end up with way too many dogs and the dogs would suffer - they re-home older dogs to give them a better life.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Sylie said:


> I don't know what to tell you. I know my baby's breeder still has every single one of her dogs enfolded in her love. But she keeps her breeding very small., and that is part of the reason I love her so much. Yet, I see that many breeders who have contributed to the advancement of our beloved breed, have expanded so much that they can't keep all their dogs. It is something that you need to view with a very open mind. Try not to make to make any judgements until you see the full perspective...which very likely will never be. Just because a breeder finds it necessary to sell or give away some of their breeding stock doesn't mean they are heartless scoundrels. It may just mean that they can't handle the burden, and know they can find very loving homes for their kids.
> 
> Or...they may be cruel, unloving people who don't want to feed the loosers who aren't going to win ribbons.
> 
> There are all kinds of people in this world we share, but the majority are well meaning.


Gee...and I would pick a small hobby breeder who DOES lovingly place their retirees so they DON'T get too many dogs under their roof and can give each one the time, love and attention dogs really need. I won't go to a larger show breeder who has so many dogs they need a special room or building because I can not wrap my head around how they can truly spend individual time and attention with each dog and puppy and I want a breeder who truly KNOWS their dogs...not an employee who knows the puppy I may be interested in. I may change my mind if I ever have the pleasure of experiencing a larger scale show breeder and see how they can truly manage that. But for now...I want a puppy that is raised in the home, hearing pots and pans clanking in the kitchen, the sound of the vacuum cleaner running, and has experienced car rides and outings. 

I don't know who your breeder is so I'm not trying to say anything at all about him or her. Maybe your breeder is very new to breeding and hasn't yet built up their breeding program. But at some point, for the health and well being of the dogs in their breeding program, they will stop breeding them. And then they will have younger dogs they will be using for breeding. The only way to keep a breeding program small IS to lovingly place retirees. And I think a good indication they are doing it for the love of the dog and not the $ is that they aren't selling them for a high price but usually just the cost of the spay or neuter and their last dental with them.

And I too find the highlighted in red sentence very offensive. And I'm not a breeder. Breeders MUST hold back puppies that look promising for show potential if they want to continue to improve the breed. And then something may go off like the bite or top line. Or like in my Callie's case, she just didn't get big enough. Also she didn't like being in the show ring. It would have been cruel to keep her and either force her to be in the ring when it clearly stressed her and breed her knowing she may have some trouble whelping. Personally I love the fact that Callie's breeder knows her limit and will only have so many dogs at one time. She wants to make sure she can give them all the time, love and attention they need and deserve. Does it hurt when she lets a retiree go? Yes. Did it kill her to let me have a 9 month old show hopeful that she wanted so much to keep for her own special little companion. Yes! So much so that she drove 3 hours one way to visit us this spring.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I used to feel this way before I knew many breeders and I was only a "pet" person and later a "rescue" person. I could not understand if it was true how breeders could let go of a baby they have raised, shown, loved how they could let them go. 

But two things helped me to understand it much better. First of all, I got to know show breeders who do LOVE their dogs and who understand their limits. Even keeping a very small household of dogs is difficult to do if you breed even 1x per year. The math just is not in your favor. These breeders would have to stop breeding if they did not place adults to make room for pups. And reputable good show breeders try to make sure they place their adults while those dogs are still young enough to enjoy a good life between 4-6 years of age (not like the mill dogs I once fostered that were bred until they literally physically could not any longer usually up until around 10+ years of age). 

I also came to understand through my experience with rescue how a well loved dog can adapt to another loving home so well. These dogs LOVE their people and are very good a LOVING again. They do not live out the rest of their lives pining for their first home. They go with open hearts and accept love where they find it. 

The ethical breeders I know find it harder to place their adults than they do their puppies. They work hard to match the dog to an ideal home, often looking for one that will be willing to commit to keeping in VERY close communication for the rest of that dog's life. Where I used to judge these breeders like you have, I have now come to admire them and respect their courage in making a choice that is to the best interest of the dog, even as it may break their own hearts. Several of our SM members have adopted retirees in such a circumstance and can share their stories of how this has worked for them.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> I used to feel this way before I knew many breeders and I was only a "pet" person and later a "rescue" person. I could not understand if it was true how breeders could let go of a baby they have raised, shown, loved how they could let them go.
> 
> But two things helped me to understand it much better. First of all, I got to know show breeders who do LOVE their dogs and who understand their limits. Even keeping a very small household of dogs is difficult to do if you breed even 1x per year. The math just is not in your favor. These breeders would have to stop breeding if they did not place adults to make room for pups. And reputable good show breeders try to make sure they place their adults while those dogs are still young enough to enjoy a good life between 4-6 years of age (not like the mill dogs I once fostered that were bred until they literally physically could not any longer usually up until around 10+ years of age).
> 
> ...


:goodpost:
The voice of reason strikes again!


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

:blush: Oops I'm afraid my line about unloving breeders came off way wrong. I was being facetious. It *is* possible that there are callous show breeders, but *very* few. I MOST certainly did not intend to cast dispersions on anyone. It was kind of unfair to highlight that sentence out of context.

Sometimes the written word comes off way different than what is in ones head. My intention was to say that there is nothing unkind at all about placing your retired dogs in loving homes.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Sylie said:


> :blush: Oops I'm afraid my line about unloving breeders came off way wrong. I was being facetious. It *is* possible that there are callous show breeders, but *very* few. I MOST certainly did not intend to cast dispersions on anyone. It was kind of unfair to highlight that sentence out of context.
> 
> Sometimes the written word comes off way different than what is in ones head. My intention was to say that there is nothing unkind at all about placing your retired dogs in loving homes.


Sadly you are correct. It IS possible that there are callous and unethical show breeders out there.  

btw...I didn't reply to just one or 2 sentences, but highlighted it and left the whole post so it *wouldn't* be taken out of context. I'm not sure how else I could have done it and show what I was referring to. :huh: It was not my intent to be unfair. :grouphug:


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Sadly you are correct. It IS possible that there are callous and unethical show breeders out there.
> 
> btw...I didn't reply to just one or 2 sentences, but highlighted it and left the whole post so it *wouldn't* be taken out of context. I'm not sure how else I could have done it and show what I was referring to. :huh: It was not my intent to be unfair. :grouphug:


It was not my intent either to be unfair and I also left the whole response and highlighted the part that struck me as being harsh towards show breeders so it shouldn't have been taken out of context.


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## hoardresearch (Jul 11, 2011)

*Animal Hoarding*

Hi everyone,

I know you all are responsible pet owners and breeders but I wanted to bring this up in your discussion about animal hoarding.

I'm a researcher for the series Confessions: Animal Hoarding, currently airing on Animal Planet that tells the stories of people overwhelmed by the number of pets they own. The problem is on the rise and affect communities across America. 

Most of these situations aren’t dealt with until they become criminal. This results in animals being euthanized by over-stressed shelters, and doesn’t address the underlying psychological issues - meaning nearly 100% of people end up in the same situation again.

We are dedicated to finding comprehensive long-term solutions and believe therapy to be key to therapy to be key to this. We can bring in experts to help people and their pets.

If you or someone you know needs help because animals have overrun their life, visit Animal Hoarding Project | Home to learn more and submit their story. Alternatively, contact me directly at [email protected] or toll-free at 
1 -877-698-7387.

We will treat all submissions with confidentiality and respect.

Thanks!


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## lynda (Oct 11, 2005)

I didn't read all these posts but I am sure many had very good answers for you. I can only imagine how difficult it is for a breeder to place a retiree into a good home. But I am more than convinced that they do it out of love for the dog. I am sure it give them great pleasure to know how much their precious little one is loved and care for. Not to mention how happy they are making people like us. How great to be able to be a pampered pet after a show career and be placed into a wonderful home. 

I have nothing but admiration and respect for the three breeders that I have in my life right now. The joy that I have in my life because of them is beyond measurable. Maybe I am just rambling on but I hate to see a "Good Breeder" criticized for what they do. It seems to me that they are on an emotional roller coaster (mostly good, and sometimes not so much) from the minute that puppy is born right through that puppies life span. They are not made of stone you know.

JMHO from a very happy pet owner of 4 of the bestest Maltese in the world.:thumbsup:


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

When I was breeding (Lhasas), I had 6 fluffs that I referred to as my "forever dogs". These were the ones that were going to be with me from the time they were born until they went to the bridge. I love all of the others -- showed them, finished them, bred them and then placed them into their forever homes.

I have kept in contact with every one of the people that have fluffs of mine and know that they are happy in their forever home where that are wonderful pets with loving families.


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## Hokeydays (Jul 11, 2011)

I must admit I have a lot to learn, and again I must stress I did mot mean to offend anyone. I know almost all of the breeders have a lot of love for their dogs, otherwise they would likely not be involved in such a program.

I fully understand now the idea behind providing a loving home to dogs that no longer are able to be shown, this makes sense.

Best to all the caring Maltese lovers,
God bless you.:thumbsup:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Hokeydays said:


> I must admit I have a lot to learn, and again I must stress I did mot mean to offend anyone. I know almost all of the breeders have a lot of love for their dogs, otherwise they would likely not be involved in such a program.
> 
> I fully understand now the idea behind providing a loving home to dogs that no longer are able to be shown, this makes sense.
> 
> ...


I don't think you offended anyone. I think you asked a very innocent and good question. I too had never thought of it in the correct way until I started to learn more about what it takes to make a really great, reputable and ethical breeder. I had always grown up with people in the area having puppies and you get a puppy from them if you wanted a dog. As a kid growing up it never once occurred to me that you could or should get a dog from a breeder that had dogs in the show ring. In fact, U never once thought about them having puppies. Silly me and how kids think. I really thought that show dog was there one and only dog. lol

There is a part of me that would dearly love to get into showing. But I don't think I could be as selfless and loving as I need to be. I'm afraid I would not be able to part with any of mine and that is probably why I won't ever get into it, even though I would love to. I'm just glad there are those who can love with big enough hearts to do exactly that, so that we can all have the opportunity at a beautifully bred, healthy, and sound temperament fluff. To all those wonderful breeders, I say thank you.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

There is a part of me that would dearly love to get into showing. But I don't think I could be as selfless and loving as I need to be. I'm afraid I would not be able to part with any of mine and that is probably why I won't ever get into it, even though I would love to. I'm just glad there are those who can love with big enough hearts to do exactly that, so that we can all have the opportunity at a beautifully bred, healthy, and sound temperament fluff. To all those wonderful breeders, I say thank you.[/QUOTE]

:goodpost:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

CloudClan said:


> I used to feel this way before I knew many breeders and I was only a "pet" person and later a "rescue" person. I could not understand if it was true how breeders could let go of a baby they have raised, shown, loved how they could let them go.
> 
> But two things helped me to understand it much better. First of all, I got to know show breeders who do LOVE their dogs and who understand their limits. Even keeping a very small household of dogs is difficult to do if you breed even 1x per year. The math just is not in your favor. These breeders would have to stop breeding if they did not place adults to make room for pups. And reputable good show breeders try to make sure they place their adults while those dogs are still young enough to enjoy a good life between 4-6 years of age (not like the mill dogs I once fostered that were bred until they literally physically could not any longer usually up until around 10+ years of age).
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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## yorkieville (May 9, 2005)

I feel, that when a responsible exhibitor breeder places a retired dog, in a loving home, they are doing it because they truly love their dog, and want them to have a life of being the center of attention.

And imagine.....it gives people who could never afford a "Show Dog" the opportunity to be owned by a beautiful Maltese.

Someday, I hope to be one of those fortunate people.

I got my 4# Yorkie, Kia, because she wasn't going to be big enough to breed. 

Sheila


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