# Puppy find



## triplecminis

I see a lot is champion lined dogs on puppy find . Com ur take on this site please 


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## mdbflorida

I would not use petfind. A lot on their say champion or breeder but they are either brokers or backyard breeders. I personally would stay clear of it and stay in contact with the short list of breeders that everyone recommended on here. Yes you will have to wait, but it will be well worth it.


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## Leila'sMommy

I would steer clear also. I looked on there before I got Leila and even inquired about several just to see where they were located and asked other questions. They were all from different breeders the way it looked on the site, but I received emails that all said the exact same things. It made me get the feeling they were a scam and would probably take my money and I would get no puppy in return. 


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## Daisy's Mommie

Please trust these answers on SM. They will not lead you wrong.


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## Ladysmom

"Champion lines" is a marketing term used by backyard breeders and puppy mills. If you shake the family tree of any purebred dog can can probably find a champion _somewhere_ way back there.

The only champions that matter are first and second generation, parents and grandparents.


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## triplecminis

Got ya


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## Yogi's Mom

Leila'sMommy said:


> I would steer clear also. I looked on there before I got Leila and even inquired about several just to see where they were located and asked other questions. They were all from different breeders the way it looked on the site, but I received emails that all said the exact same things. It made me get the feeling they were a scam and would probably take my money and I would get no puppy in return.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


*Same thing Here With Me. They are a scam. I'd Back off that Site.*
*Nickee in Pa**


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## triplecminis

No more buying for me unless I buy a dog under show contract


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## hoaloha

triplecminis said:


> No more buying for me unless I buy a dog under show contract
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That sounds like the perfect way to go! A show contract with an AMA breeder . Best of luck! I am so happy you are wanting to go about this the right way-- you will be so pleased if you continue to go this route! Patience for the perfect dog to start your new lines will pay off. 


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## bellaratamaltese

Ladysmom said:


> "Champion lines" is a marketing term used by backyard breeders and puppy mills. If you shake the family tree of any purebred dog can can probably find a champion _somewhere_ way back there.
> 
> The only champions that matter are first and second generation, parents and grandparents.



And for me, the only champions that really matter to me are the championships I put on my dogs. Basically, if you did not finish the dogs yourself, you are bragging about someone elses hard work (and money) 

Puppyfind is a scary site. There may be 1 legit listing on there and the rest are ones I would stay very very far away from.


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## Ladysmom

bellaratamaltese said:


> And for me, the only champions that really matter to me are the championships I put on my dogs. Basically, if you did not finish the dogs yourself, you are bragging about someone elses hard work (and money)
> 
> Puppyfind is a scary site. There may be 1 legit listing on there and the rest are ones I would stay very very far away from.


Great point, Stacy! When I go to a breeder for a puppy I want the champions in the pedigree to be the result of her hard work and commitment, not someone elses. That will tell me how committed she is and give me confidence that she is just as committed to health and socialization which are the most important things to me.


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## StevieB

Don't even get me started on puppyfind.


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## dcm

bellaratamaltese said:


> And for me, the only champions that really matter to me are the championships I put on my dogs. Basically, if you did not finish the dogs yourself, you are bragging about someone elses hard work (and money)


So what about the folks who buy from....an ama breeder, for example, who insist that the pup you buy from them be handled by the handler of THEIR choice...or in some cases, theirself? So the owner who buys these dogs for breeding ...or to start their own lines are no good? Wouldn't you then be including the show breeders who hire handlers? Breeders pay BIG bucks for others to show and finish their dogs.....and lay big claim to fame on their champions. Many show breeders do not handle or show their own dogs. Hiring a handler is quite common.


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## Snowbody

They should just call Puppy Find, Puppymill Find. Steer clear...brokers galore.:angry:


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## CloudClan

dcm said:


> So what about the folks who buy from....an ama breeder, for example, who insist that the pup you buy from them be handled by the handler of THEIR choice...or in some cases, theirself? So the owner who buys these dogs for breeding ...or to start their own lines are no good? Wouldn't you then be including the show breeders who hire handlers? Breeders pay BIG bucks for others to show and finish their dogs.....and lay big claim to fame on their champions. Many show breeders do not handle or show their own dogs. Hiring a handler is quite common.


I don't think this was the point folks were making. Many AMA breeders hire handlers for a variety of reasons. In most cases though people who hire handlers are making commitments to proving their dogs in other ways. For instance, before a handler will take a new client dog the owners usually have had to train and condition the dog themselves (grow the coat, get the dog ring ready by going to handling classes or matches). 

The point folks were trying to discuss here is that a lot of questionable breeders find dogs that are being sold as finished champions to breeders who only care about being able to advertise champion sires or champion lines. There are a lot of breeders out there who want to make claims about showing because it is good marketing, but see no other value in it. I made a post a while back explaining the difference between these types of breeders and real show breeders. http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/80-maltese-showing-information/118054-who-real-show-breeders-2.html

One point that I would highlight from that original post is that I would expect a real show breeder, whether they hire handlers or not, to attend shows and be part of the process, obviously not every show, but they should be going to the shows themselves on a regular basis.


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## edelweiss

Carina, this is so helpful!
I entered the show world when we moved to the UK---many yrs. ago. I became a member of the UK Maltese Club world & met & learned from many experienced breeders, Vicki Herriff & Chris Raspel and Carol Carmidinek (sp?). They were an immense encouragement & I learned tons. I did reluctantly show my bitch at Windsor---and realized early on that I hated the competitive part, the politics, etc. of breeding & showing. I loved the people & the beautiful dogs. I showed only in order to get a dog I felt was quality. I wanted to do it but in the end realized I was not competitive enough, nor did I have the money to make it happen. I know a lot about Maltese but it doesn't make me a good breeder. I know a even more about genetics (from my science half) and could breed well scientifically but I hate showing & back in the day "handlers" were not on the front yet! I even took a course in handling. I am still interested, deeply interested in the scientific part of breeding, reading pedigrees, but I hate showing! So, that is why I don't breed! 
I have an educated & HUGE respect for those who show. . . I can evaluate the work involved and that makes me appreciate it all the more!
I do think that most breeders would benefit from a better knowledge of genetics and all of the inherit problems in particular lines.


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## Maidto2Maltese

:exploding:A HUGE number on puppy find are scams! I know for a fact because shortly after I got my Naddie I had posted a photo here and maybe one other site. Next thing I know I was informed by someone she was listed for sale on puppyfind!!!!!! with that same photo. Claimed she was VERY much younger than she was (at almost 2 years when I got her. )They were asking $650 for her!! Now you KNOW they had no Naddie!! so what happens to the money someone may have sent them?? hmmmmmmmm .

I contacted puppyfind and reported the stolen photo and the claim that she was for sale. I tole them they were to remove the lising immediately and that they (puppyfind) were as much a 'scammer' to the public by allowing this.. and more so thay I had to 'fight' to get it removed.

I continued to monitor the site and found a lovely Christman's pup listed there ( exact photo as was on their website). I called them to inform them and I now forget which of the guys I spoke to but they said it happens habitually! 

I believe there were other SM members pooch photos listed there as well.

Also when scanning thru all the Maltese available for sale there ...they will very often be the exact same photo of a pooch repeated, yet different name. So much deceit there I'd not touch it with a ten-foot pole! 

I'm positive no reputable breeder would list there. None would just take a fee and send a pup on a plane off to who knows where. ( These I'm referring to those who actually have a pup in the first place) ... and who knows if indeed a pup is 'delievered' ..if it even would be the same one posted in photo.. 

Ahhh you got me going on that place!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bellaratamaltese

dcm said:


> So what about the folks who buy from....an ama breeder, for example, who insist that the pup you buy from them be handled by the handler of THEIR choice...or in some cases, theirself? So the owner who buys these dogs for breeding ...or to start their own lines are no good? Wouldn't you then be including the show breeders who hire handlers? Breeders pay BIG bucks for others to show and finish their dogs.....and lay big claim to fame on their champions. Many show breeders do not handle or show their own dogs. Hiring a handler is quite common.


You're taking what I said out of context, sorry if I was confusing.

Paying for a handler, to me, means 'finishing my dog'. I am putting in the time, money and effort to get them shown, even if I am not always the one to take them in the ring. The last dog I finished was a joint effort between me and a professional handler but I still can take credit for it, just like those show breeders who use handlers because it was my breeding and my time and effort put into it. I could have finished her eventually but having the professional handler show her for a bit, she finished that much more quickly.

My comment of_ 
And for me, the only champions that really matter to me are the championships I put on my dogs. Basically, if you did not finish the dogs yourself, you are bragging about someone elses hard work (and money) _

was in regard to breeders who buy a finished champion (or a champion sired stud) and then use that fact to market their breeding program, when they have not shown a dog themselves (or had any of their breedings shown) That is the difference, IMO. 

An example of what I was referring to is a lady I used to be friends with on FB, that I see ads for her studs and puppies on occasion. She makes huge claims about her dogs champion lines then brags about the sire to her dog being 'featured in Maltese Magazine' and shows a scanned picture of the ad. First off - it is a PAID AD by the owner of the dog, not 'featured because it is so awesome' and it really has nothing to do with the dog she is advertising for stud. She is just using it to improve appearances of her breeding program, that is what I do not agree with. Well, that and her selling puppies at 8 weeks old as 'teacups' but that is a different story :thumbsup:


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## triplecminis

Everything gets chalked up to lessons learned some the hard way I met a lady on puppy find she had some females for sale I bought two then bought a puppy the puppy had a murmur so she told me to sell her and she would send me two older girls in her place for a little more money I was not about to sell the little puppy to anyone as I knew I could provide for any vet care she needed and I would never sell anyone a sick dog so she sent me two more girls their teeth were in horrible condition one was losing a tooth from the decay I tried to call her no answer I messages her several times no replies I did dentals o. Everyone doc looked them all over thoughly but I wish I had more medical history more knowledge about them then I do at least I know they will be taken care of now 


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## triplecminis

Working for a vet has its perks I know my dogs are always in good hands but it is a full time job and takes me away from the dogs a lot so I am contemplating leaving my job soon I never have work for the paycheck but more to ensure my dogs get seen and treated right away and well I get huge discounts on meds and supplies but I am at that crossroads right now


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## mdbflorida

Guess I haven't had enough coffee this morning or I am getting confused with another post. So you got a female puppy with health issues? I thought you were looking for a show puppy? Hope everything works out.


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## dcm

CloudClan said:


> I don't think this was the point folks were making. Many AMA breeders hire handlers for a variety of reasons. In most cases though people who hire handlers are making commitments to proving their dogs in other ways. For instance, before a handler will take a new client dog the owners usually have had to train and condition the dog themselves (grow the coat, get the dog ring ready by going to handling classes or matches).


In the case of a show potential puppy, when a show breeder sells a show puppy, they usually maintain physical custody of that puppy until it is ready to show...then is handed off to the handler. The *buyer*, in most cases, never has the puppy in their hands until it is finished. (unless, of course, the buyer has show experience). At least, that is how it works with most of the show breeders I'm aware of.


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## CloudClan

dcm said:


> In the case of a show potential puppy, when a show breeder sells a show puppy, they usually maintain physical custody of that puppy until it is ready to show...then is handed off to the handler. The *buyer*, in most cases, never has the puppy in their hands until it is finished. (unless, of course, the buyer has show experience). At least, that is how it works with most of the show breeders I'm aware of.


That is simply false. I don't know who you are "aware of" but I have been involved in the Maltese world for 22 years, and have been involved in the show world for the last 6+ years and I know of only one case such as you describe. So the story you are discussing is hardly typical.


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## Maslen Maltese

*Puppyfind.com*

I actually have a couple of male puppies available that I posted on puppyfind.com. My thought process was the average person looking for a pet googles something like "maltese puppy for sale". Guess what comes up first when you do that. Why should unscrupulous breeders be more easily accessible to the general public than reputable? (Or, at least I think I am reputable). Although, I feel like I get a ton of responses to my ads that are people trying to scam me.--Helen, Maslen Maltese


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## triplecminis

Being in a vets office when someone comes in looking for a specific breed of puppy I tell them to look on puppy find my take on byb breeders is totally diff I see the bad cases the parvo puppies the giardia cases the really sick puppies that never make it to be a pet so I usually recommend puppy find feeling like they will at least vaccinate and take better care since they have to pay to advertise 


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## Maslen Maltese

*Puppyfind.com*

I agree with Carina that the way you are describing that is inaccurate. Many show breeders will keep a show dog until it is 6 months old to make sure the bite is correct before it goes to a show home. But, I don't know of any instances where the buyer doesn't have the dog in its hands until it is finished. That sounds a bit bizarre.



dcm said:


> In the case of a show potential puppy, when a show breeder sells a show puppy, they usually maintain physical custody of that puppy until it is ready to show...then is handed off to the handler. The *buyer*, in most cases, never has the puppy in their hands until it is finished. (unless, of course, the buyer has show experience). At least, that is how it works with most of the show breeders I'm aware of.


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## Sylie

Maslen Maltese said:


> I actually have a couple of male puppies available that I posted on puppyfind.com. My thought process was the average person looking for a pet googles something like "maltese puppy for sale". Guess what comes up first when you do that. Why should unscrupulous breeders be more easily accessible to the general public than reputable? (Or, at least I think I am reputable). Although, I feel like I get a ton of responses to my ads that are people trying to scam me.--Helen, Maslen Maltese


Helen, your dogs are gorgeous. In my internet search for a puppy I quickly learned* not* to google puppies for sale. I learned to avoid any web-site that listed available puppies before showing pictures of their champions. But, I am an exception. Probably, most people do look for puppies. Here on SM we try to steer those looking to acquire a well bred Malt to reputable breeders. I always warn them NOT to google puppies for sale. 

Why don't you stay with the forum and make friends? Join us in the war against unscrupulous people who use the internet to sell badly bred dogs and take advantage of people who just don't know better. What I find especially sad is that many of these brokers or puppy mills have well designed web-sites, with pictures of beautiful dogs and prices that are outeffinrageous.


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## dcm

CloudClan said:


> That is simply false. I don't know who you are "aware of" but I have been involved in the Maltese world for 22 years, and have been involved in the show world for the last 6+ years and I know of only one case such as you describe. So the story you are discussing is hardly typical.


I won't name names publicly.....I know better than that. They are names you'd know, without a doubt.

I have a friend who purchased 2 male show puppies from an ama breeder a few years back....they were sent to a handler before my friend got physical custody. She then purchased a female puppy from the same ama breeder. The sire of the female belonged to someone else & the owner of the sire, also ama, insisted on being the handler of that one. 

[As a side note, the sire's owner decided she did not like my friend, so she took forever to finish her...charging my friend a fortune plus when she finally did finish her....she pumped the little girl full of every kind of shot she could come up with before sending her home....rendering her sterile and refused to acknowledge that female as being progeny of her well known stud.] The breeder of all three also attached a ton of strings with the dogs.

Last year, she purchased a female from a different ama member.....did not get her until finished. However, this breeder was much better, more honest & helpful.

I've been around a while too. There are a lot of things that go on that don't become public......you'll find that out.


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## Maslen Maltese

*Puppyfind.com*



Sylie said:


> Helen, your dogs are gorgeous. In my internet search for a puppy I quickly learned* not* to google puppies for sale. I learned to avoid any web-site that listed available puppies before showing pictures of their champions. But, I am an exception. Probably, most people do look for puppies. Here on SM we try to steer those looking to acquire a well bred Malt to reputable breeders. I always warn them NOT to google puppies for sale.
> 
> Why don't you stay with the forum and make friends? Join us in the war against unscrupulous people who use the internet to sell badly bred dogs and take advantage of people who just don't know better. What I find especially sad is that many of these brokers or puppy mills have well designed web-sites, with pictures of beautiful dogs and prices that are outeffinrageous.


Thank you for the compliments on my pups. I pop in and out of here every now and then, but it is a very active forum and hard to keep up with sometimes. I kinda get confused on how to use the actual site sometimes too. :blink: Haha!


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## CloudClan

dcm said:


> I won't name names publicly.....I know better than that. They are names you'd know, without a doubt.
> 
> I have a friend who purchased 2 male show puppies from an ama breeder a few years back....they were sent to a handler before my friend got physical custody. She then purchased a female puppy from the same ama breeder. The sire of the female belonged to someone else & the owner of the sire, also ama, insisted on being the handler of that one.
> 
> [As a side note, the sire's owner decided she did not like my friend, so she took forever to finish her...charging my friend a fortune plus when she finally did finish her....she pumped the little girl full of every kind of shot she could come up with before sending her home....rendering her sterile and refused to acknowledge that female as being progeny of her well known stud.] The breeder of all three also attached a ton of strings with the dogs.
> 
> Last year, she purchased a female from a different ama member.....did not get her until finished. However, this breeder was much better, more honest & helpful.
> 
> I've been around a while too. There are a lot of things that go on that don't become public......you'll find that out.


Again, the situation you describe is not at all normal. I think anyone who wants to get involved in showing in this way is either letting herself be conned or is trying to con others into thinking she cares about showing her dogs. There would be little purpose in this type of arrangement and it smacks of someone who cares more about the titles and the kennel names on the dogs than the actual contribution to an overall breeding program. 

I see that you say you have been involved in Maltese for over 30 years and that you used to show, did you have your own kennel name?


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## zooeysmom

OMG Helen, your pups are soooo cute!


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## Maslen Maltese

*Puppyfind.com*



zooeysmom said:


> OMG Helen, your pups are soooo cute!


Thank you!


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## ckanen2n

Just say NO!


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## Yogi's Mom

Maslen Maltese said:


> Thank you!


 
Where can I see your puppys?

Found them Very Beautiful.


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## Maslen Maltese

Yogi's Mom said:


> Where can I see your puppys?
> 
> Found them Very Beautiful.


Not sure what you mean? I thought they were referring to the pictures I have upload with my profile?
Helen


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