# When do I intervene?



## Chalex (Feb 19, 2010)

Of course 9 month old Preston has a lot more energy than 15 year old Lucy (toy poodle). When Preston wants to play with Lucy he really doesn't get it when she says "no." Sometimes I put him in his pen if he is really bothering her, or pull him off her and try to get him interested in a toy. Luckily he doesn't hump her much anymore, but he gets in her bed and sticks his rear end in her face. She's a little bigger than him (7 pounds vs 4.5) and she did bite him on the nose once. I worry she might hurt him because she doesn't have as much control as him. She's paralyzed on one side of her body and when he's jumping all over her she kind of bites the air. I know in the dog world mama human wouldn't get involved. Should I?:huh:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

OMG! A 15 year old semi-paralyzed dog and you ask if you should intervene when Preston bothers her?

This senior gal needs her own space where she can't be bothered by a puppy. She shouldn't be expected to have to tell him "no" on her own. How is she supposed to do that with paralysis on one side of her body? The image of her biting the air to protect herself is heartbreaking. :smcry:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I would not let him do that to her at all. With her physical limitations/age that is not fair to her. Keep them separated or keep him on a leash if you cannot reliably call him off. 
I would initiate calm interaction like having him do basic obedience next to her (of course they both get treats each time even though she gets the easy life!). Relaxing on the couch with both is also good. All together time should be calm.


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## Chalex (Feb 19, 2010)

I do keep him away from her and intervene a lot. If Preston doesn't obey he goes in the crate or pen. I never leave them alone together. A trainer that I spoke with (but chose not to use) told me I should let them work it out and she will put him in his place. She does sometimes, but he's pretty relentless. When I say she's paralyzed that's how the vet describes her, but in reality she has some limited function on one side of her body but she walks pretty normally. She's bigger and stronger than him and I worry that he'll be the one who gets hurt. Either way, I don't want him to get hurt and I don't want her to be abused. I HAVE BEEN intervening, and I only question it because according to the trainer if I let them go at it, she'll put him in his place and the behavior will cease. The one thing I do notice is he is getting much gentler with her, but he's still very annoying.


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## Chalex (Feb 19, 2010)

By the way, I didn't know it was called calm obedience but I do obedience with him next to her every day. When he gets a treat, she gets one too.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Poor Lucy should not have to put up with that at her age and with her problems.

We got Chase when Jack was older and Chase was a little pain to Jack (Jack was not as old as Lucy). Jack would back into a corner or cower at the little white tornado that was running around him grabbing at him.
I started taking Chase to Jack, laying Chase down or on his side and Jack would come over and sniff.
The more I did this the more Jack would interact with Chase. Baby Chase would just lay there as I praised him then we would jump up and go into the other room for treats.
Eventually Chase would run to Jack and lay down....Jack would play "I'm getting you" , then bounce away all proud and happy. This went on until Jack went to the Bridge. Chase learned to be gentle and knew Jack would not hurt him.
It was remarkable years later to see them interact, Chase running to Jack and laying down and old Jack bouncing around him all pleased with himself.


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## preciouspups (Apr 13, 2008)

theboyz said:


> Poor Lucy should not have to put up with that at her age and with her problems.
> 
> We got Chase when Jack was older and Chase was a little pain to Jack (Jack was not as old as Lucy). Jack would back into a corner or cower at the little white tornado that was running around him grabbing at him.
> I started taking Chase to Jack, laying Chase down or on his side and Jack would come over and sniff.
> ...


What a sweet memory. :wub: Thanks for sharing.


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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

Chalex said:


> I do keep him away from her and intervene a lot. If Preston doesn't obey he goes in the crate or pen. I never leave them alone together. A trainer that I spoke with (but chose not to use) told me I should let them work it out and she will put him in his place. She does sometimes, but he's pretty relentless. When I say she's paralyzed that's how the vet describes her, but in reality she has some limited function on one side of her body but she walks pretty normally. She's bigger and stronger than him and I worry that he'll be the one who gets hurt. Either way, I don't want him to get hurt and I don't want her to be abused. I HAVE BEEN intervening, and I only question it because according to the trainer if I let them go at it, she'll put him in his place and the behavior will cease. The one thing I do notice is he is getting much gentler with her, but he's still very annoying.


Not only a 15yr old dog but NO puppy or adult should be allowed to "work it out". This is how multi-dog households get into trouble having dog fights on down the road. Management is key. You must manage and transistion puppies into the household SLOWLY... I get so many questions on this AND potty training. Management of puppy will help aleviate both problems! 

Hugs to your elder one. I'd recommend lots of playing and training away from the older one and then when calm and worn out, maybe puppy will want to sleep with her. Otherwise, keep them separate. It isn't "annoying" it is "puppy"


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

It is simply unfair to expect a 15 year old dog with health problems to put up with an obnoxious puppy. 
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by not knowing it was calm obedience. I am using calm as a descriptor for this time period where you enforce the young dog having good manners while around the older dog. The idea is for the dogs to have a positive association of being around each other. Anything other than calmness is not going to be positive for the older dog. A calm time means both dogs are under control, quiet, and focused on you.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

(((((Cathy)))))) I hope you are not feeling defensive because I read these responses as from people truly trying to help you see it from the dog's eyes... you are Obviously a Good Mommy since you sensed, regardless of what that trainer told you, that something was not right with the current status quo so KUDOS to you!!! Your sweet senior appreciates that you understood on some level she shouldn't have to put up with that and got the validation right here... let us know what you're trying now to keep the baby from harrassing her and how it's going 

Annie, your story was so incredibly sweet... I can picture that in my mind's eye too!


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## mary-anderson (Jan 12, 2010)

Cathy, 

I understand your pain. When I brought Alvin into my home
my cocker Reginald was about 14 and deaf. I had just put another baby down and thought I was doing the right thing giving him a playmate.
Reginald did not like Alvin and of course a pup wants to play. I felt so bad
I remember sitting on the sofa with Reginald crying telling him how sorry I was. The sofa was the only place he could escape because Alvin could get on it. After a while it did get better but in the mean time Reginald lost his eye sight. Life got much better when I got Alvin a playmate Ms. Chloe Louise. They just play and leave the big guy alone. Once in a while she get in front of him in a little play bow, gives out a few barks and gives him kisses. Times have changed Reginald can no longer get on the sofa, Alvin can to escape Chloe. Reginald sanctuary is now Chloe's crate. Chloe will take naps in the crate with him and they love to get in there and play while the old guy sleeps. So after all this my advice is get another fluff!!
It's the best thing I ever did.


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## Chalex (Feb 19, 2010)

mary-anderson said:


> Cathy,
> 
> So after all this my advice is get another fluff!!
> It's the best thing I ever did.


Would you mind talking to husband about this? 

I have to say that Preston has brought a little youth back into Lucy. She hadn't touched a toy in years and now she does! She showed Preston how to crawl under the birdcage and get some good stuff that the bird drops, and even though I try to stop them (don't really want them eating bird discards) they are so cute doing that together. They are little partners in crime (she knocks down the gate and they make a run for it). All is well and they're great friends until Preston decides it's playtime (which happens to be right now). Lucy is currently sitting on my lap while Preston gets toys tossed to him. It's working. Little by little I think he's starting to see that's she's not a littermate. I will continue to intervene and keep Lucy safe and happy. I know she doesn't have a lot of time left with us and I want her to enjoy every minute that she does have. She has been entirely devoted to me since she was 3 months old and we have a bond that I can't even begin to describe. She's my baby girl and no one is going to mess with her.

Okay, Preston's done playing and Lucy is back on the floor. All is well.:aktion033:


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## mary-anderson (Jan 12, 2010)

AAAhhh the hubby, never fails.:angry: When I new I wanted a playmate for Alvin I told the DH "I'm going to get another fluff." His response "No the heck your not". My response "yes the heck I am." So looking for another one and knowing I wanted a Maltese I started my search. Just so you know I was nieve to byb and puppymills :blush:. So one dayafter work I went home found the checkbook and went check out this little girl (byb). DH is still at work. While I have this little bundle of joy in my arms who calls but the DH :w00t:. He says "where are you at". I say "Waianae "(town in Hawaii). He says "what the heck are you doing there". I say "I have a little bundle of joy in my arms". He says "no the heck you don't " I say "yes the heck I do". That's how Alvin got is little sister Chloe Louis. So, I'm not sure if I'm the right person to talk to your hubby:HistericalSmiley: but I have no problem if you would like. Once again I have not regrets!!


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

Ex DH has an 8 1/2 YO old Schnauzer (weighs 18-19 lbs) and a new 16 wk Malt (just barely 4 lbs), and he lets it jump all up in the other one's face while she is backed into a corner or against his body. He thinks it's hilarious to watch the old one snap and snarl at the baby, but I tell him he's crazy to allow it to continue. He doesn't seem to get that the old one can inadvertantly injure (or worse) the little one, and that the little one needs to respect the old one's space and leaver her the heck alone. He insists that they should work it out themselves. Can you believe that crap? The old Schnauzer even snaps at* him* regularly when she doesn't like the way he (ex DH) plays with her. Serious behavioral issues there, but he doesn't give a flip. Yep, that's gonna end badly. And probably sooner than later, too. ((sigh)) He's a poster child for "Don't let this happen to you."


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## Chalex (Feb 19, 2010)

Mary,

I kind of bought Preston with that "you're getting what?" from the DH. I've actually gotten all the dogs that way except the first, which was his breed choice. The DH always falls into place. Yesterday he was sending pictures of Preston to people who really don't care in emails, and every time he sees him he says, "he is so **** cute." We enjoy taking Preston on weekend outings and I think it would be too hard if there were two. Believe me, if I really wanted another I'd get one.

Sandra,
Preston is more trainable than your ex. This morning (first morning ever) he went over to Lucy and just laid down. No playing at all. It was really nice to see. Lucy's not feeling well today and maybe he sensed that. He's becoming a real sweety!


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Some trainers, ugh. 

In Karla and Jackie's posts you have two experienced trainers who have given you excellent advice. 

So I do not mean to mock the good ones. But sometimes the advice I hear that some trainer or another has given, just makes me cringe. 

I am glad you are working with Preston and helping him to calm down with Lucy. I had similar problems with Cadeau and Cameo when he was a baby. He was such a pest and I really had to give her her own space from him. But he got much better as he got older and while she always saw him as a pest, be really loved her and I know he was as heartbroken as we were when she died. 

Keep up the good work with his training, just be careful not to put too much faith in any trainer; if it doesn't feel right to you, it probably isn't.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

almitra said:


> Ex DH has an 8 1/2 YO old Schnauzer (weighs 18-19 lbs) and a new 16 wk Malt (just barely 4 lbs), and he lets it jump all up in the other one's face while she is backed into a corner or against his body. He thinks it's hilarious to watch the old one snap and snarl at the baby, but I tell him he's crazy to allow it to continue. He doesn't seem to get that the old one can inadvertantly injure (or worse) the little one, and that the little one needs to respect the old one's space and leaver her the heck alone. He insists that they should work it out themselves. Can you believe that crap? The old Schnauzer even snaps at* him* regularly when she doesn't like the way he (ex DH) plays with her. Serious behavioral issues there, but he doesn't give a flip. Yep, that's gonna end badly. And probably sooner than later, too. ((sigh)) He's a poster child for "Don't let this happen to you."



That just breaks my heart. My wonderful vet years ago told me that once a dog is a senior, it's not fair to bring another dog into the household. 

My sister's vet said something even better when they were considering getting a puppy when their Jack Russell was about 13. Dr. Beth asked her how she would feel if her husband brought in her replacement before she was dead?

I know how I exhausted I feel when my grandchildren come for a weekend. I would never ask Lady to put up with a puppy.


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## Chalex (Feb 19, 2010)

It is hard for a senior to deal with young ones. On the other hand, MY senior is starting to enjoy life a bit more with Preston around. As long as he doesn't jump on her and want to play (and he won't anymore), she has a companion who is reminding her of things she used to enjoy. Today was a particularly good day. Lucy was sleeping in Preston's bed. Preston watched her for a few minutes, then quietly slipped in and snuggled up next to her. They remained like that for quite a while. I think Preston is going to be a positive force in Lucy's life.


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

Cathy, I am so delighted to hear they're doing well. And I have NO doubt Preston's more trainable than my ex....LOL!!!!


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Ladysmom said:


> That just breaks my heart. My wonderful vet years ago told me that once a dog is a senior, it's not fair to bring another dog into the household.
> 
> My sister's vet said something even better when they were considering getting a puppy when their Jack Russell was about 13. Dr. Beth asked her how she would feel if her husband brought in her replacement before she was dead?
> 
> *I know how I exhausted I feel when my grandchildren come for a weekend. I would never ask Lady to put up with a puppy*.


Marj, I will take this to another level here. My grandchildren wear me out, however I'm not in fear for my life. Can you imagine sitting in a lounge chair, old, with arthritis, sore bones, and body. Chillin', then suddenly your daughter brings over a Coyote to visit. Now you're being attacked by a Coyote. You can't defend yourself. You can't even run from it, as a result of your messed up patellas. This is how dogs feel. They feel threatened, and under attack. 

I may be looking at the extreme here, but thru experience, a 15-year-old, 
is in need of pampering, love, and attention.

We can all give our 2-cents, however, I don't believe it's fair to subject a dog, who's life span will not reach much beyond the years already lived, and think it will be a good thing to add, possible stress, to his life. 

I feel sick for the seniors. I do speak from experience. Nope, I'm not a trainer. Just one who takes in the seniors, shortly after the new pup arrives, and gets on the "Old Dog's" nerves. 

PS: I'm really not speaking of this thread. Just the topic in general, my love for the seniors, and heartbreak thru the years. 

As Marj has always stated: SENIORS ROCK!! :chili:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

3Maltmom said:


> Marj, I will take this to another level here. My grandchildren wear me out, however I'm not in fear for my life. Can you imagine sitting in a lounge chair, old, with arthritis, sore bones, and body. Chillin', then suddenly your daughter brings over a Coyote to visit. Now you're being attacked by a Coyote. You can't defend yourself. You can't even run from it, as a result of your messed up patellas. This is how dogs feel. They feel threatened, and under attack.
> 
> I may be looking at the extreme here, but thru experience, a 15-year-old,
> is in need of pampering, love, and attention.
> ...


Yup, seniors rock! :rockon:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Well, I don't believe in blanket rules. I have personally known plenty of older dogs who tolerate new additions just fine. Some of these older dogs were very playful...others use to dogs joining the family throughout their lifetime. My Jonathan is 11 1/2 and it is no big deal to him for another dog to come into the home. 
I would much rather see an emphasis on the new addition being appropriate for all other pets in the house regardless of age...


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

jmm said:


> *Well, I don't believe in blanket rules.* I have personally known plenty of older dogs who tolerate new additions just fine. Some of these older dogs were very playful...others use to dogs joining the family throughout their lifetime. My Jonathan is 11 1/2 and it is no big deal to him for another dog to come into the home.
> I would much rather see an emphasis on the new addition being appropriate for all other pets in the house regardless of age...


Nor do I. I am speaking from experiences. 

I've also had many, eleven, and under, who would not do well with a pup. Then again, I've had several who do fine. Depends on the dog, the age, and health. 

I do believe a 15-year-old dog should rule the roost.

Once again, I do not believe in "blanket" rules, however, I do know my 15-year-old seniors do not have alot of time. Nor am I going to train them to put up with a pup.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

I think there's a big difference in the way an 11 1/2 year old dog acts versus a 15 year old dog. Not trying to be argumentative, but that's (IMO) like comparing a spry 60 year old to an 80 year old or some such


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

And a 12 year old Golden or 14 year old large breed is but older....doesn't mean they may not be a fine candidate for a new addition. EACH DOG IS DIFFERENT.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

jmm said:


> And a 12 year old Golden or 14 year old large breed is but older....doesn't mean they may not be a fine candidate for a new addition. *EACH DOG IS DIFFERENT*.


Absolutely. So is this a "fine candidate for a new addition" ?

"She's paralyzed on one side of her body and when he's jumping all over her she kind of bites the air."


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

3Maltmom said:


> Absolutely. So is this a "fine candidate for a new addition" ?
> 
> "She's paralyzed on one side of her body and when he's jumping all over her she kind of bites the air."


That just breaks my heart. :smcry:


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

That darling senior needs TLC. The puppy is acting like a normal puppy and wants to play but you need to make sure the senior clearly has her own space. When you say she is biting the air because she is paralyzed on one side, I can picture that and it is very sad.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

3Maltmom said:


> Absolutely. So is this a "fine candidate for a new addition" ?
> 
> "She's paralyzed on one side of her body and when he's jumping all over her she kind of bites the air."


If you read my original responses you'd see my thoughts on that specific situation. I'm not sure why you are appearing to agree that the decision to add another dog with an older dog is individual, yet you appear to be arguing with my statement at the same time. Either its individual or its a blanket rule. Take your pick. 

My opinion is it depends on the individual dog and the situation. If you disagree, that is your right! Everyone can have their own opinion. I respect your right to yours just as I hope others respect my right to mine. It is only by learning how other people think that we can be critical of our own thoughts and ideas.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

jmm said:


> If you read my original responses you'd see my thoughts on that specific situation. I'm not sure why you are appearing to agree that the decision to add another dog with an older dog is individual, yet you appear to be arguing with my statement at the same time. Either its individual or its a blanket rule. Take your pick.
> 
> My opinion is it depends on the individual dog and the situation. If you disagree, that is your right! Everyone can have their own opinion. I respect your right to yours just as I hope others respect my right to mine. It is only by learning how other people think that we can be critical of our own thoughts and ideas.


Trust me, we're on the same page. And, of course, it's my right to my opinion. That goes without saying.

And yup, as I stated, it depends on the dog. I don't understand where you came up with otherwise.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

You quoted me before the last quote of yours I responded to. It made it seem like you were carrying on a conversation with me and questioning if I thought this particular decision was correct based on my statement. I thought it was pretty apparent based on my original replies to the OP what I thought.


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## Chalex (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm feeling a little persecuted here. I'm neither an idiot nor a dog abuser. Technically, Lucy will be 15 at the end of July if we're counting days, months or years. Yes, she's had a stroke and is very weak on one side. However, this happened several years ago and she has always gotten around just fine. She's in very good shape for a dog of her age. People who meet her are shocked when I tell them her age. (There are pictures of her in the photo section-she's beautiful!)This is partially due to the care that I have given her for the last almost 15 years. She was on a raw diet probably before most of year had heard of it. She has never eatten dog food. I took her off the raw food when she got older and wasn't tolerating it as well, and I have been cooking for her for several years now. Preston has calmed down significantly since I originally posted this. If he jumps in her bed or does anything to upset her, he immediately gets placed in his pen. I agree that not all elderly dogs (or puppies) are the same. Perhaps it would have been best to wait on getting Preston, mainly because it would have been easier on me. Lucy is not suffering! I'm sure many of you have gotten second or third dogs only to realize that it may not have been the best idea. If it's really a problem, you get rid of the second dog. If it can be worked out, you work it out. I can assure everyone that this is working!

And by the way, my parents call their grandchildren the best medicine in the world.


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