# Puppy Vaccinations - I Could Just SCREAM!!!



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I need to vent ... and plead with all of you who may be getting a puppy in the near future ... to please pay attention to what your breeder says and pay attention to what your contract says.

One of my puppies went to his new home on Saturday. He is a very nice little boy, 3.5 lbs. and 19 weeks old. As I said in other threads on this forum before, I keep all puppies until they are at least 16 weeks old, have their puppy shots done at 8 wks, 12 wks and 16 wks and have their bile acid tests done at 15 wks old. All puppies are placed with a sale contract which contains, among other things, a mandatory spay/neuter clause and a very reasonable and generous health guarantee. Attached to the sale contract is a copy of the lab results of bile acid test and a health history printed out by my vet detailing the date of each and every visit, vaccination, etc. On the health history page I write out the date that the rabies vaccination should be given, the date that the one-year DHPP booster shot should be given, and a schedule of all future vaccinations. My contract contains the following clause:

Said dog will have received all appropriate puppy shots and deworming prior to purchase. Purchaser will be responsible for vaccinating the dog for Rabies; said Rabies vaccination is not to be administered before the dog reaches 5 months of age ( ) and is not to be administered in conjunction with any other vaccination of any type. Failure to abide by this vaccination clause renders any and all guarantees contained in this Agreement null and void.

This puppy's new family came to my home early Saturday morning. As we had agreed ahead of time, I bathed him after they arrived so that they could watch and learn how to do it. They got to watch and learn how to dry him, shave his paw pads and cut his nails. I gave them the same nail clippers and battery-operated paw pad clippers that I use on all my dogs. We then reviewed and discussed the contract, clause by clause, discussed the vaccination schedule, the use/schedule of heartworm preventative, flea/tick preventative, and the timing of the neuter based on what the puppy/adult teeth are doing. My contract says that the puppy must be neutered by 8 mos. of age but also not before the adult canine teeth have erupted through the gums. We discussed the feeding schedule, potty training schedule, and the general care of the puppy. Everybody understood and agreed with all clauses of the contract, read and understood the health history, understood and agreed to the neuter requirements and the general care of the puppy. Perfect, right?

In accordance with my contract (which says the puppy must be seen by a vet for a wellness exam within 5 days of purchase) the puppy had his wellness exam today. He got his rabies shot, in accordance with the contract. And that's where the good news ends. In addition to the rabies shot he got another DHPP shot, an intranasal Bordatella vaccination, and an application of Frontline. And they scheduled his neuter less than a month from now when he won't yet be 6 mos. of age. All of this was done on the advice of the vet tech!!!!!!! Since most of you know that I'm a very mild mannered person (NOT), you can well imagine my reaction. Needless to say, I am scared poopless for my little guy!! And, needless to say, the owner is scared poopless for her new puppy and because she ignored the contract and thought she was doing the right thing. The worst part of all of this is that the vet she used IS MY VET!!! I have never had this sort of issue with my vet, but then again his techs would never dream of telling me what I should be doing to or for my dogs.

As other breeders have said before, our sale contracts are always changing and evolving. Just when we think we've got it right something else goes askew. Tomorrow morning I will be calling my vet and tomorrow night I will start drafting an "open" letter addressed to "Dear Vet of Maltese Puppy Now Owned By __________________". That letter will contain (bolded and underlined) the clause quoted above from my contract, have attached to it a copy of the health history and lab results from the bile acid test, and will be followed by a statement that "should you as the new vet of this puppy, administer any vaccinations, flea preventative or heartworm preventative not in accordance with my contract, then you as vet will have caused all guarantees contained in the sale contract between breeder and purchaser of this puppy to become IMMEDIATELY NULL AND VOID.

I'm upset, confused, angry, frustrated and scared. How will we ever get through to people -- buyers, vets, vet techs -- that what we put in our contract we put in there for the WELL-BEING OF THE PUPPY?


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

I understand whole heartily, Mary. :exploding:They pretty much do what they are told to do by people they consider knowing more than they do. As in the health of our dogs. No matter how much we try to educate the public about vaccinations and the dangers that they can cause. Our Vets still use the old way of administrating them. 
I can understand how you feel when it is your own vet that vaccinated a puppy of yours knowing how you feel about vaccinations.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I would be there at the vet and scream at him :exploding: Did he know it was one of your pups ?


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

I totally understand your frustration Mary, its so scary when it comes to these little puppies. IMHO this is entirely the vets fault - and almost every vet I've gone to has this practice of pushing pushing pushing more shots, more treatments, etc. into a single visit. And it happens every visit! 

It really takes a strong person with strong convictions to stand up to them when they are advising on all of this. Its understandable, too, people just got their new baby and want to do right by them. Most people aren't aware of the dangers of overvaccinating or having too many treatments done at the same time. I don't know how to advise you to proceed in the future, but if I were in your situation I would consider making it a pre-requisite to read Scared Poopless before picking up a puppy. At least then people might feel more armed to discuss things and, if necessary, push back with the vet and vet techs.

Its unfortunate and a little scary, but most people in this country are not advocates for their pet's health - or their own, for that matter. I used to be guilty as charged, too, when I had a crazy work schedule and no time to research. 

In any event, I can't wait to hear how your conversation with the vet goes.....


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

I can't even imagine how you are feeling Mary . You spent so much time with the new pet owner, more then anyone has ever spent with any of my babies and then for this to happen. I know your sweet little guy will be okay and I am sure you are right on top of it at your vets office. You must have been blown away.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

Mary, what if you have a separate paper that just lists what shots etc. they need and when.
The top of the paper could say " To be taken to the Vet with puppy!". Make it simple and 
easy to read and in a bold color. Have them sign it after you read it with them. THEN make a copy
and you keep one, do in front of new owner so they know the importance. 
Please keep us posted on the little boy and how he is doing.


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

One more thing.....when we have a person sign an adoption agreement for our fosters it asks
for their Vets name and address. What about using that idea and sending the "Vet info from the
Breeder" on to the Vet yourself. Just an idea.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm so sorry, Mary. 

It is terrible the way vaccinations are pushed as a matter of routine with no thought involved on both sides. When I take Nikki in for her yearly, the very first thing I say is "No vaccines!" to the receptionist, to the techs, and to the vet. All around me - in the waiting room, and in the back office, I overhear talk about getting shots. It's very sad because they don't realize what they are doing. 

I'm really sorry you had to experience one of your puppies go through this.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Well my good little boy survived the night without incident. His potty schedule is set up so that bedtime is around 10 pm, then his owner gets up around 2 a.m. to let him potty, back to bed, and up at 6 am. I insisted that she call me in the middle of the night and then again this morning. Luckily he is going fine. His owner on the other hand did not sleep a wink ... and neither did I. She is taking today off of work and I am leaving now for work because I have an all day meeting that I've got to be in. :w00t: I will call the vet this morning to cancel the neuter appointment and make an appointment for one of my other dogs for Saturday. Rather than discuss this situation over the phone I'm going to wait until Saturday and do it in person. I want nothing to be lost in translation in what I have to say. Thanks all for your support and good thoughts for our precious little one.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Well my good little boy survived the night without incident. His potty schedule is set up so that bedtime is around 10 pm, then his owner gets up around 2 a.m. to let him potty, back to bed, and up at 6 am. I insisted that she call me in the middle of the night and then again this morning. Luckily he is going fine. His owner on the other hand did not sleep a wink ... and neither did I. She is taking today off of work and I am leaving now for work because I have an all day meeting that I've got to be in. :w00t: I will call the vet this morning to cancel the neuter appointment and make an appointment for one of my other dogs for Saturday. Rather than discuss this situation over the phone I'm going to wait until Saturday and do it in person. I want nothing to be lost in translation in what I have to say. Thanks all for your support and good thoughts for our precious little one.


There is a Homeopathic Dog Detox liquid you can buy in a health food store or online.


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

Mary,

I'm so sorry that you had this happen. I pray that your
little guy continues to be okay and I know that you
will tell the vet what he needs to hear.

Keep us updated!

Debbie


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

This is a lesson to all dog owners. Do not turn off your brain when you walk into a veterinary office. You are your dog's only advocate. You must take charge of your dog's health and make the decisions for it, not the vet, not the groomer, no one but you. Please be careful and watch what everyone is saying and doing in a vet's office. When I took Nikki in for her yearly last week, I had to repeatedly tell the vet techs I was not allowing vaccine boosters and they looked at me like I was crazy but I don't care.


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## BellaWella (May 2, 2010)

sorry if this was already in another thread but its early and I have meetings so I guess ill look around later but just in case I'll also ask now....... so im guessing its not good to get rabies and dhlpp shot at same time??? My bella goes may 27 to get 4th shot and she will be 16 weeks old. The vet said I should also do my rabies same time! 

If its not a good idea should I just get my 4 shots for her and reshedule for rabies?? If yes, how long should I wait for her to get rabies shots after she gets her 4th shot?? then about how long should i wait to get her spayed?


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

BellaWella said:


> sorry if this was already in another thread but its early and I have meetings so I guess ill look around later but just in case I'll also ask now....... so im guessing its not good to get rabies and dhlpp shot at same time??? My bella goes may 27 to get 4th shot and she will be 16 weeks old. The vet said I should also do my rabies same time!
> 
> If its not a good idea should I just get my 4 shots for her and reshedule for rabies?? If yes, how long should I wait for her to get rabies shots after she gets her 4th shot?? then about how long should i wait to get her spayed?


Always wait at least 3 weeks after the other vaccinations to give a rabies shot. Always give it separately. Rabies shots usually aren't given until the puppy is 5-6 months old.

I suggest you read this blog: http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/ before you do any more shots, especially this article: http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2009/09/30/vaccinating-small-dogs-risks-vets-arent-revealing/


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## Delilahs Mommy (Nov 22, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear this Mary! I sure hope the pup will be just fine! I agree with what Marsha said, make a separate list one for the owner, even one for the vet to keep in puppy's chart.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Suzan, I am 100% behind you - we are our dog's advocate. There is nothing wrong with listening to your vet, but don't do anything you are not comfortable with. There is no harm in saying I'll think on it and return if we decide to do it.


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## Morkie4 (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm so sorry this happened. I would be scared to death with all those extras they gave to the poor boy! Sure hope he is okay and stays okay.

I know with my vet, I pretty much tell them what I want done and don't want done and they listen :thumbsup::thumbsup: The only problem I have is that sometimes he has a substitute vet come in when he takes two days a week off and I DO NOT LIKE HIM!!! Unfortunately when Toby had HGE, the sub vet was there and he sort of brushed off the seriousness of the problem and I was really mifted, really mifted......I ended up going back to the vet the same day within 15 minutes after I had been at the office and this time I dug out all the bloody paper towels. . . . . . . AND this time I insisted on him taking the problem seriously and following the directions in Toby's file..........they had a ton of information on HGE which I provided as well as the information and treatment the "hospital" vet sent them the first time Toby had HGE; so to me, there was no excuse and so I never go when the sub vet is there..........and told them that also!

Wishing your little boy stays well! :thumbsup:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

BellaWella said:


> sorry if this was already in another thread but its early and I have meetings so I guess ill look around later but just in case I'll also ask now....... so im guessing its not good to get rabies and dhlpp shot at same time??? My bella goes may 27 to get 4th shot and she will be 16 weeks old. The vet said I should also do my rabies same time!
> 
> If its not a good idea should I just get my 4 shots for her and reshedule for rabies?? If yes, how long should I wait for her to get rabies shots after she gets her 4th shot?? then about how long should i wait to get her spayed?


 
Here's my schedule:

8 wks - DHPP, dewormer

12 wks - DHPP

15 wks - bile acid test

16 wks - DHPP

5 mos - Rabies

Only after Rabies will I start on any other treatments, i.e., flea/tick preventative, heartworm preventative, Bordatella vaccination. And I wait AT LEAST 3 weeks before doing anything after Rabies and AT LEAST 2 weeks between flea/tick and heartworm preventative. Does this mean a few extra trips to the vet early on? Yes. But spreading out these treatments will possibly prevent unnecessary frequent trips to the vet later on and will definitely prevent overstressing an immature immune system FOR NO GOOD REASON.


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## Snow White (Dec 6, 2009)

theboyz said:


> Mary, what if you have a separate paper that just lists what shots etc. they need and when.
> The top of the paper could say " To be taken to the Vet with puppy!". Make it simple and
> easy to read and in a bold color. Have them sign it after you read it with them. THEN make a copy
> and you keep one, do in front of new owner so they know the importance.
> Please keep us posted on the little boy and how he is doing.


Exactly what I was going to say! :thumbsup:

I was given a long list by my vet on many vaccinations and when I got home I emailed my breeder also post here on SM. I got my answers and canceled everything. :aktion033:


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## pinkpixie1588 (Oct 12, 2009)

How awful!  I'm glad he seems to be doing well, so far. Leila is my first pup, so I got to experience the pressure from the vet techs first hand on our first visit. She was exactly 2.0 pounds and 16 weeks and the tech had taken it upon herself to start listing all of these shots she should be getting THAT DAY, including rabies, lepto., and something else..

She had mentioned something offhandedly about her needing it right away and then went into the other room. When she came back in she had a tray of syringes ready to go. Then, I finally got a moment to interject and tell her that wasn't going to be happening. I told her I wasn't going to give her a bunch of shots only 2 days after getting her when she was already stressed out, etc. I told her I would reschedule on my own. 

She really looked at me like I was a horrible 'mom' and that I didn't know anything about what was best for her. It was hard to stick to my guns because I'm usually very non-confrontational and hate high pressure situations. Anyway, just wanted to show how easy it can be to blindly trust what the vet/vet tech says, especially when you haven't had a puppy before.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

jmm said:


> Suzan, I am 100% behind you - we are our dog's advocate. There is nothing wrong with listening to your vet, but don't do anything you are not comfortable with. There is no harm in saying I'll think on it and return if we decide to do it.



Yes, there should be no fear in disagreeing, and doing what YOU want. While I was at the vet last week, a tech brought up a Lepto vaccine, and I just politely said, "No thank you."


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## jenniferhope423 (Jun 25, 2007)

I understand your frustration and I hope that the puppy is going to be alright. I purchased my puppy from Janet McAllister of Phlicks Maltese. She gave me the same information as you gave your new puppy parents. I brought my puppy to my vet for her wellness check and ended up seeing a new vet that worked was new in the office. She wanted to give her another shot in addition to her rabies vaccine. I immediately called Janet while the vet was in the room and explained the situation to her. She was able to instruct me as what I should do and the vet listened and only gave her rabies. I feel so comfortable knowing that I can call Janet with any situation or question and she will be able to offer insight and advice.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Thank goodness the pup is ok! I can't even begin to imagine how you and the new owner would have felt if something bad had happened...:w00t:

Hopefully the new owner will ask you before doing anything at the vet that's not on your list....


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

No offense to my friends Jackie and Jaimie and others here on SM who are in the veterinary medicine profession. 

I don't know what some of you have been experiencing, there but seems to be a HUGE push to vaccinate and getting worse all the time, and I think it is fear and profit-driven.

I know that there is some sort of commission involved in selling vaccines and some meds, but it is getting so ridiculous that you cannot even get inside the door of the vet's office without being "sold" vaccines and flea/tick meds. 

Nikki's vet (I really love the man, though I disagree with him on some issues) told me that the sales reps from Pharma companies take the whole staff out to lunch (at different times) and push push push the selling of their stuff. 

You really have to stand up for yourself and your dog. This is my issue: When you vaccinate your dog, you might get through it without any health issues, but you don't know what it does to your dog in the LONG run, and many vets don't make the connection between vaccinations and chronic health issues, like allergies, behavior issues, etc. So please, please, please, when it comes to vaccines, do some homework before you visit the vet. We love these tiny furbabies and we want the best for them. I am sure that most vets/vet techs do too, but still, it is YOUR dog.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Here are some links, if anyone is interested:

Combo Shots for Dogs: A Dangerous Convenience | Truth4Dogs

Too Many Dog Shots: Eliminate Unnecessary Vaccines and Improve Health | Truth4Dogs


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> No offense to my friends Jackie and Jaimie and others here on SM who are in the veterinary medicine profession.


No offense taken. I have to take my dogs to a vet...and I sure as heck would not use one who pushes vaccines or medications on me. My dogs see a boarded internist as their regular vet. She recommends what is essential and what my dogs are at high risk for. And that's it. I've never had flea/tick meds pushed on me (though I do use them). I've never felt forced into vaccinating. All vets are not created equal as to their education on vaccinations and their local risk level. 

I currently live in an area very high risk for parvo and lepto as well as rabies. We make a recommendation based on the individual animal, offer explanations for the recommendations, and leave it to the owner to decide. We do encourage the use of a flea preventative due to the horrible flea problem and seeing mostly outdoor pets. 

The second a vet makes blanket recommendations, I would be out the door. My dog is an individual and should be treated as such. 

Not all clinics work on commission and many that do have a smaller commission combined with a standard salary. Any vet pushing a product or procedure for commission has some wry ethics in my book. I am happy to push a product I use on my own pets and think the client would benefit from knowing about. For example, I just switched to Comfortis and I have no problem recommending it over another product for a client who needs flea protection.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

jmm said:


> No offense taken. I have to take my dogs to a vet...and I sure as heck would not use one who pushes vaccines or medications on me. My dogs see a boarded internist as their regular vet. She recommends what is essential and what my dogs are at high risk for. And that's it. I've never had flea/tick meds pushed on me (though I do use them). I've never felt forced into vaccinating. All vets are not created equal as to their education on vaccinations and their local risk level.
> 
> I currently live in an area very high risk for parvo and lepto as well as rabies. We make a recommendation based on the individual animal, offer explanations for the recommendations, and leave it to the owner to decide. We do encourage the use of a flea preventative due to the horrible flea problem and seeing mostly outdoor pets.
> 
> ...



That is a good vet you have, Jackie. 

Nikki's vet is very good at treating dogs individually. I love that about him. HE doesn't push anything, it's EVERYONE ELSE in the office that does! And, my FORMER *Holistic* Vet pushed for unnecessary, expensive testing, and vaccinations. :smpullhair: Go figure.

I am not really one to talk, because when I find a product that works, I tell people about it. But it is usually something that is innocuous with no side effects, and I don't get commission, lol!


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

What has totally blown me away in this situation is that I thought I covered my bases. These people left with my home number, cell number and work number. I make no bones about the fact that I am available and want to be involved 24/7 (proven now by the fact that I made her call me at 2:00 am this morning to let me know how the puppy was doing). I repeatedly said "Call with any question. Don't wait until a situation becomes an issue or worse yet an emergency." And it was my own vet's office!! I've never had a problem, therefore never thought there would be one. The buyer left my home with a health history, a total line by line summary of every vet visit and every treatment. It was the tech who came in and pushed/insisted on all of the vaccinations. The buyer is a first time puppy owner, wants desperately to do everything right for her new little one, and believed that since my vet had been treating this puppy since birth then she should go with the recommendations of the vet tech. I'm not at all angry with the buyer although I did say that in the future she needs to always bring her own health records to each vet visit and not depend on anyone else.

I called my vet's office this morning, spoke with the receptionist (who always has an excuse for everything), cancelled the neuter appointment, and requested that she pull up the info on this puppy and all siblings. Sure enough, there was a mixup on their end and only one of the litter was shown as having the last DHPP shot. She wanted to explain why it was the computer's fault .... I erupted on a par with the volcano in Iceland. I have a vet appointment Friday at 4:30 at which time the conversation will be continued unless my vet tells me to go find another vet ....


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> What has totally blown me away in this situation is that I thought I covered my bases. These people left with my home number, cell number and work number. I make no bones about the fact that I am available and want to be involved 24/7 (proven now by the fact that I made her call me at 2:00 am this morning to let me know how the puppy was doing). I repeatedly said "Call with any question. Don't wait until a situation becomes an issue or worse yet an emergency." And it was my own vet's office!! I've never had a problem, therefore never thought there would be one. The buyer left my home with a health history, a total line by line summary of every vet visit and every treatment. It was the tech who came in and pushed/insisted on all of the vaccinations. The buyer is a first time puppy owner, wants desperately to do everything right for her new little one, and believed that since my vet had been treating this puppy since birth then she should go with the recommendations of the vet tech. I'm not at all angry with the buyer although I did say that in the future she needs to always bring her own health records to each vet visit and not depend on anyone else.
> 
> I called my vet's office this morning, spoke with the receptionist (who always has an excuse for everything), cancelled the neuter appointment, and requested that she pull up the info on this puppy and all siblings. Sure enough, there was a mixup on their end and only one of the litter was shown as having the last DHPP shot. She wanted to explain why it was the computer's fault .... I erupted on a par with the volcano in Iceland. I have a vet appointment Friday at 4:30 at which time the conversation will be continued unless my vet tells me to go find another vet ....


Mary, you did everything under the sun and then some. And I can only imagine how the new puppy owner was feeling. Been in those shoes wanting so desperately to do what's best for the puppy, your head actually spins.

The new puppy owner is so lucky to have you and I am sure she knows it and she sounds like a great Mom. I've had my share of upset with vet techs (not at my current office, but boy I have had them)

Hugs to you, new puppy Mom and that sweet darling little boy.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

What's really sad and actually infuriating, is there seems to be several stories here on SM every year of a new puppy owner going to the vet with either a 12 week old, or usually a much younger Maltese between 7-10 weeks and the first thing the vet does is give all the vaccinations at one time. And how many of those puppies then develop health issues? I've spoken to several breeders who really believe that some of these issues, blindness, seizures, etc are a direct result of such a high dose of vaccines at too young an age or small a size. Also, several breeders have indicated that often a pre-neuter/spay blood panel reveals elevated liver enzymes that are most often in direct correlation to a recent vaccine, heart worm med, or even flea med and when they can convince the new mommy and daddy to wait a month and retest instead of going ahead with all the very expensive tests to check on liver issues, the liver enzymes go back to normal. So why don't the vets realize this? I really hate to think it's all about the almighty dollar. 

Mary, what happened with your baby is inexcusable. I'm so glad that so far that precious baby is doing ok. Years ago, my OLD vet pressured me into giving another round of vaccines because the breeder did them instead of their vet and my OLD vet said he wasn't comfortable that they used vaccines that were not expired and stored properly. I didn't know then what I know now and trusted the people who really should know better. I know first hand what an awful situation it is to be in when you don't have the knowledge yourself to stand up to those who are supposed to be the experts. I'm really sorry this happened.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

My passionate hope is that dog owners become more interested in learning about their dog's health, and not go on "autopilot" when they meet with medical people. Plese don't let anyone frighten you into over-medicating/vaccinating. Yes, there are horrid diseases our dogs can catch, but think about what situations and lifestyle YOUR dog has, and ask questions. Every veterinarian should provide you with a very good reason why each vaccine is necessary FOR YOUR PARTICULAR DOG. Ask to read the package inserts with the warnings and side effects, if they are available. Don't you get those with all of your prescriptions? Why not at the vet office too?

People are human and not perfect, including doctors and veterinarians. Many of them don't have the time to be completely current on the pros and cons of everything, so they rely on the pharmaceutical companies and food companies for information. 

Ultimately, we are responsible for our own health and the health of our dogs. Please, learn about what is truly healthy for you dog, so that you can be informed _before_ you walk into a vet's office. 

At last year's checkup, I had a very long conversation with the vet about what vaccinations were appropriate for my dog's lifestyle. If I had walked in there not knowing a thing about vaccinations or nutrition, I would have been easily frightened into over-vaccinating, mainly by the office people, for no good reason. Taking a couple of hours to educate yourself before those vet visits might mean the difference between your dog having a long healthy life, or your dog having chronic lifelong medical conditions acquired from over-vaccinating.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> What's really sad and actually infuriating, is there seems to be several stories here on SM every year of a new puppy owner going to the vet with either a 12 week old, or usually a much younger Maltese between 7-10 weeks and the first thing the vet does is give all the vaccinations at one time. And how many of those puppies then develop health issues? I've spoken to several breeders who really believe that some of these issues, blindness, seizures, etc are a direct result of such a high dose of vaccines at too young an age or small a size. Also, several breeders have indicated that often a pre-neuter/spay blood panel reveals elevated liver enzymes that are most often in direct correlation to a recent vaccine, heart worm med, or even flea med and when they can convince the new mommy and daddy to wait a month and retest instead of going ahead with all the very expensive tests to check on liver issues, the liver enzymes go back to normal. So why don't the vets realize this? I really hate to think it's all about the almighty dollar.
> 
> Mary, what happened with your baby is inexcusable. I'm so glad that so far that precious baby is doing ok. Years ago, my OLD vet pressured me into giving another round of vaccines because the breeder did them instead of their vet and my OLD vet said he wasn't comfortable that they used vaccines that were not expired and stored properly. I didn't know then what I know now and trusted the people who really should know better. I know first hand what an awful situation it is to be in when you don't have the knowledge yourself to stand up to those who are supposed to be the experts. I'm really sorry this happened.


:goodpost:


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## drclee (Jul 16, 2008)

I also had to reiterate to my vet's office several times that I did NOT want Jack & Jill vaccinated at their annual exam. Too many pet owners are misinformed or uninformed and take their advice without question. I am so glad I found this forum and learned about how to be a good parent to my babies!!


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

You really do have to pay close attention and be very assertive when you have you pets at the vets office. I had an incident with Lacy when she was still a puppy. At the time I didn't realize the dangers of overvaccination...and the vet we went to thought the more, the better. Well, Lacy was about 8 months old...she had been fully vaccinated according to this vet, at 13-14 weeks. I took her in at 8 months to be dewormed because she had been eating my cat's poop out of the litterbox, and I guess I was worried she'd have worms for some reason. Well, I wasn't paying attention and they completely vaccinated her with a DHLPP-C AND Rabies vaccine!!! He didn't look to see that I only had her there to be dewormed. Like I said, at the time I didn't realize the dangers of overvaccination..otherwise I'd be absolutely livid now. Thank God she is healthy so far at 5 1/2 years old, other than some GI/fatty liver problems over a year ago that seems to have been resolved. 

I would NEVER just drop my pet off for their yearly and pick up later like some people do..who knows what they'd vaccinate your pet for while they were there. I also won't let them take my pet out of the room..even if they draw blood, I want it done right there in front of me. I make sure I pay very close attention now!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

BellaWella said:


> sorry if this was already in another thread but its early and I have meetings so I guess ill look around later but just in case I'll also ask now....... so im guessing its not good to get rabies and dhlpp shot at same time??? My bella goes may 27 to get 4th shot and she will be 16 weeks old. The vet said I should also do my rabies same time!
> 
> If its not a good idea should I just get my 4 shots for her and reshedule for rabies?? If yes, how long should I wait for her to get rabies shots after she gets her 4th shot?? then about how long should i wait to get her spayed?


What vaccines are you getting? The 4th round of shots shouldn't be until they are 1 year 4 months old. Rabies by state law is now 3 months old. As a breeder I try to get people to wait until their puppy is at least 6 months old or older. Some people are afraid to go against the law, so they give it when they are supposed to. 
As Nikki's mom said, we are advocates for our dogs. We need to educate ourselves so WE know what is BEST for OUR dogs. They do need vaccinating for Parvo. It is still around and it shows up and kills our puppies.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> What's really sad and actually infuriating, is there seems to be several stories here on SM every year of a new puppy owner going to the vet with either a 12 week old, or usually a much younger Maltese between 7-10 weeks and the first thing the vet does is give all the vaccinations at one time. And how many of those puppies then develop health issues? I've spoken to several breeders who really believe that some of these issues, blindness, seizures, etc are a direct result of such a high dose of vaccines at too young an age or small a size. Also, several breeders have indicated that often a pre-neuter/spay blood panel reveals elevated liver enzymes that are most often in direct correlation to a recent vaccine, heart worm med, or even flea med and when they can convince the new mommy and daddy to wait a month and retest instead of going ahead with all the very expensive tests to check on liver issues, the liver enzymes go back to normal. So why don't the vets realize this? I really hate to think it's all about the almighty dollar.


:goodpost:


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## BellaWella (May 2, 2010)

again sorry for posting on this this thread maybe I should start a new one but I'm sure there is so many threads on this and I'm just missing them or not understanding. I am new to raising a puppy on my own, had dogs as a child but my parents took great care of them and are not around for me to get any advice from there so I need people I believe to experts like Mary who started this thread. I research and research all over the internet and its horrible b/c everything says somthing different or the total opposite, so being someone that isn't educated on these things, it terrifies me where I cant sleep somtimes bc I just want to know whats best for her..I wish I had bought my dog from you, you def seem to know what you are doing.


Like I said I am new to this and didn't do the amount of researched I needed to do before I brought Isabella home... I brought her home at about 8 1/2 weeks, which I now know is horribly wrong :mellow:, sorry. 

she was given piperzine adipate and 1st shots at 5 weeks of birth from breeder 

I got her 2nd shots at 8 1/2 weeks
her 3rd dhlpp at 12 1/2 weeks 

now her 4th dhlpp at 16 plus was advise by vet to do rabies same day.

I am canceling the rabies til her 21 week and then get her spayed around 7 or 8 months of age. 

she started small dose of Interceptor Heartworm tabs here b/c we have over populated community of mosquitos here in upstate NY... and One and last application of frontline plus which I will be stopping. 


after all that I will be doing a titer test annually instead of anymore vaccinations unless needed.... Does any of this sound like I did somthing wrong or doing somthing wrong what should I change??? Besides buying a puppy at over 12 weeks instead of 8 im sorry!!!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The last DHPP at/after 16 weeks is correct. Good to you for separating the rabies vaccine. Please do not give a DHLPP vaccine. Your vet can leave the lepto out if you request. If you live in an area of HIGH risk for lepto, you can discuss a separate 4-way lepto vaccine with your vet. 
If you need flea/tick prevention you can revisit it later. Suzan has a natural one she recommends.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I must say that my vet in Houston did not push vaccinations and this one here does not either. I will make a new post about a special vaccination.


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## Twinkle (Apr 24, 2010)

oh gosh..i am so sorry to hear that. I hope it all works out..but most importantly..i hope the little pupser will be safe and healthy.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

BellaWella said:


> again sorry for posting on this this thread maybe I should start a new one but I'm sure there is so many threads on this and I'm just missing them or not understanding. I am new to raising a puppy on my own, had dogs as a child but my parents took great care of them and are not around for me to get any advice from there so I need people I believe to experts like Mary who started this thread. I research and research all over the internet and its horrible b/c everything says somthing different or the total opposite, so being someone that isn't educated on these things, it terrifies me where I cant sleep somtimes bc I just want to know whats best for her..I wish I had bought my dog from you, you def seem to know what you are doing.
> 
> 
> Like I said I am new to this and didn't do the amount of researched I needed to do before I brought Isabella home... I brought her home at about 8 1/2 weeks, which I now know is horribly wrong :mellow:, sorry.
> ...


You haven't done anything wrong. There is controversy on when to give vaccines and what to give when giving vaccines. It all depends on what diseases are present in your area. Here is Dr. Jean Dodd's recommendations for vaccination in dogs:
Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I'm so sorry, Mary.
> 
> It is terrible the way vaccinations are pushed as a matter of routine with no thought involved on both sides. When I take Nikki in for her yearly, the very first thing I say is "No vaccines!" to the receptionist, to the techs, and to the vet. All around me - in the waiting room, and in the back office, I overhear talk about getting shots. It's very sad because they don't realize what they are doing.
> 
> I'm really sorry you had to experience one of your puppies go through this.


Nikki doesn't get ANY vaccinations? Even the rabies ? Aren't you afraid of her catching something without being vaccinated against DA2pp? I dislike the idea of vaccinations but I am afraid NOT to get them done either.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

poochie2 said:


> Nikki doesn't get ANY vaccinations? Even the rabies ? Aren't you afraid of her catching something without being vaccinated against DA2pp? I dislike the idea of vaccinations but I am afraid NOT to get them done either.


I won't give DHPP vaccines to my dogs anymore either. They are adults, and I believe that my dogs were most likely protected from Distemper, Hepatitis, and Parvo for life when they were given their adult DHPP booster vaccine. I don't believe that they are going to be any more protected by continueing to vaccinate them for these diseases. I also believe that they are protected from rabies for life, but there is the issue of the law unfortunately. I take my dogs to a LOT of meetups and events, and if for any reason they were to ever bite someone (which is pretty unlikely I believe), they could be euthanized if their rabies was not current  So that scares me...they are both due for their 3-year rabies this month and I hate the thought of giving it to them. Stupid law


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Having seen adult dogs who were vaccinated years ago contract parvo...I'm not sure I buy the lifetime immunity.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

jmm said:


> Having seen adult dogs who were vaccinated years ago contract parvo...I'm not sure I buy the lifetime immunity.


 
Could there be another strain of Parvo? Or is the vaccinations that we are giving today better at protecting our dogs?


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Mary - after reading your OP all I could think of is what more could you do then move out of your house and move in with the new pup owners. How did they not see how thorough and knowledgeable you were? I can't believe how much info and guidance you provide and then something like this happens. :blink: I don't blame you for being so mad and I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on with the vet...both giving the shots and "losing" the shot records on most of the litter. I can only imagine your appt on Friday. :angry:

I'm so happy to say that my vet was extremely conservative with Tyler's shots. She said she would only give one at a time with at least a week or more in between (and only charge me for each shot,not as separate visits) and when she had a question about past shots, she had me call my breeder on my cell phone while I was in her office so she could speak to him. In defense of vets, of the new pups that they see, probably a majority of people don't get their pups from reputable breeders but from pet shops or BYB's and maybe the vets question info from where the dogs came from since they don't think it will be reliable. Or not. But in your case, Mary, this was your vet. Really bizarre.


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

Mary, this story just makes me sick for you, the puppy, and the puppy's owner. I know that there are some holistic remedies that may be beneficial to administer, one being thuya. Just a thought if you wanted to consult with a holistic vet with the hope that it would help this puppy deal with any possible vaccinosis.

Deb


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Snowbody said:


> Mary - after reading your OP all I could think of is what more could you do then move out of your house and move in with the new pup owners. How did they not see how thorough and knowledgeable you were? I can't believe how much info and guidance you provide and then something like this happens. :blink: I don't blame you for being so mad and I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on with the vet...both giving the shots and "losing" the shot records on most of the litter. I can only imagine your appt on Friday. :angry:
> 
> I'm so happy to say that my vet was extremely conservative with Tyler's shots. She said she would only give one at a time with at least a week or more in between (and only charge me for each shot,not as separate visits) and when she had a question about past shots, she had me call my breeder on my cell phone while I was in her office so she could speak to him. In defense of vets, of the new pups that they see, probably a majority of people don't get their pups from reputable breeders but from pet shops or BYB's and maybe the vets question info from where the dogs came from since they don't think it will be reliable. Or not. But in your case, Mary, this was your vet. Really bizarre.


Sue, unfortunately I think it was a combination of mishaps that took place. The error in vet records is borderline inexcusable and while I realize that mistakes happen the process is broken and needs to get fixed. The owners are first time puppy owners and trusted that the staff at my vet's office was giving them the same advice that they would have given me, given the fact that the vet is my vet and has known the puppy since birth. I cannot blame the vet tech for saying the puppy needed another DHPP shot since it was not in their records that a third shot had already been given. But I do blame all involved because every single one of them has known me for years, knows how "Type A" I am, knows that I NEVER do multiple treatments, whether vaccinations, heartworm, flea/tick preventative, etc. on any of my dogs and they all knew that the puppy was one that I bred. It will all either get resolved on Friday or I will be finding a new vet.

I was at the monthly meeting of my kennel club tonight where we discussed the situation and shared thoughts on what we all can and should do going forward to prevent something like this from happening. I got some very good feedback and among other things will be revising my sale contract yet again and will be writing a letter of direction that I will personally send to the vet of any future puppy I place. And I will require that my vet keep the same letter of direction in my file for future reference. But for tonight I am going to crawl into bed and pray for some much needed and immediate sleep. Breeding is a nervewracking endeavor from EVERY angle.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

totallytotontuffy said:


> Mary, this story just makes me sick for you, the puppy, and the puppy's owner. I know that there are some holistic remedies that may be beneficial to administer, one being thuya. Just a thought if you wanted to consult with a holistic vet with the hope that it would help this puppy deal with any possible vaccinosis.
> 
> Deb


Unfortunately all of the preventatives/detoxifiers, whether homeopathic (thuja for one) or allopathic (benedryl) should be given before the vaccinations or, at least in the case of benedryl, immediately at onset of a reaction. Giving any of this several hours after the vaccinations is of little use. And I did not find out about any of what took place until about 8 hours after the fact.

The good news is that Bentley (the puppy) as of 10:00 tonight is eating, drinking, pooping, peeing, playing, wagging his tail and sleeping. His new owner and I are the ones seemingly suffering the worst of the side effects.


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Aww, Mary. I hope you get a good night's sleep. So glad Bentley is doing well. Sorry to be mean, sounds like idiots' delight. Excluding you, Mary,of course. Hang in there. Good luck to you and your little one on Saturday.
xoxoxoxoxoxo


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

jmm said:


> Having seen adult dogs who were vaccinated years ago contract parvo...I'm not sure I buy the lifetime immunity.





Tina said:


> Could there be another strain of Parvo? Or is the vaccinations that we are giving today better at protecting our dogs?


That's what I'm wondering because what I've been reading is really pointing towards a lifetime immunity. If there are documented cases of Parvo in adult dogs who have been previously vaccinated, that would end that whole line of study.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Tina said:


> Could there be another strain of Parvo? Or is the vaccinations that we are giving today better at protecting our dogs?


Vaccines are never 100% effective which is why some puppies that have been fully vaccinated still sometimes get parvo, as well as the possibility of adult dogs getting it. Fortunately they seem to work in most cases. Also, viruses are very good at evolving and changing to protect themselves so it is very possible that there are strains of parvo out there that the vaccine does not protect against. Dogs that are vaccinated for bordetella end up getting it pretty commonly..one of my friends has hers vaccinated for bordetella every 6 months and one of hers was just diagnosed with it. I guess all we can do is try to protect our dogs the best we can, but at the same time I don't want to overvaccinate either. 



MaryH said:


> Unfortunately all of the preventatives/detoxifiers, whether homeopathic (thuja for one) or allopathic (benedryl) should be given before the vaccinations or, at least in the case of benedryl, immediately at onset of a reaction. Giving any of this several hours after the vaccinations is of little use. And I did not find out about any of what took place until about 8 hours after the fact.
> 
> The good news is that Bentley (the puppy) as of 10:00 tonight is eating, drinking, pooping, peeing, playing, wagging his tail and sleeping. His new owner and I are the ones seemingly suffering the worst of the side effects.


 
So glad he's doing well. Both of my dogs were vaccinated multiple times with a DHLPPC combo vaccine as puppies/young adults and then rabies at the same time and fortunately were fine as well. I am so glad I know better now for my future dogs though. I will always worry about the long-term consequences of overdoing vaccines though.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Glad he's doing okay. Milk Thistle is a liver-protecting herb than can be given after vaccinations to help the liver process the toxins.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

The protocol for the Detox/Allergy Blend I use calls for it to be used for a 3-4 week period given 1-2 weeks prior to the vaccines and then another week or 2 after depending on your dog and what he/she may be experiencing before vaccines are even given, i.e. allergy symptoms. Even though it's best to give the detox prior to vaccines, there are still benefits to giving it after.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> That's what I'm wondering because what I've been reading is really pointing towards a lifetime immunity. If there are documented cases of Parvo in adult dogs who have been previously vaccinated, that would end that whole line of study.



Basically the whole vaccine issue hits a very HOT button for me. So advance apologies if I sound cranky about it. 

I'd like to know the number of dogs who have contracted Parvo after receiving a previous Parvo vaccination, and whether the virus they contracted is mutated strain, or the same exact strain they were vaccinated with. If it is a mutated strain, then alll dogs are at risk for mutated viruses, period.

I'd also like to know the number of *Maltese dogs *who are purchased from reputable breeders as puppies, that have contracted Parvo or Distemper or Hepatitis or Parainfluenza (DHPP) if they haven't been given regular 1 year or 3 year boosters subsequent to their puppy shots. Does anyone know where I'd find that information? Does it even exist? (Who would fund THAT study?) I asked this question at my vet's office and it was answered with blank stares. In other words, no one knew, or really thought it was relevant. 

When I think about the differences between a well-cared for toy dog that is mostly inside, and a large dog that is kept outdoors most of the time or allowed to roam, I have my doubts regarding risk factors, but most vets don't want to discuss that. Nikki's vet does, thank goodness. 

For example, I'd not get a vaccine for typhoid, unless I was going to travel to a country where there was a high risk. So why am I told that I should get Nikki a Lepto shot when she is simply not at risk? What about uninformed people who walk into a vet's office and are sold a multi shot for no good reason?

Why should ALL dogs be given these multi-purpose shots if they simply are not at risk for every single disease that are in these multi shots? Why not offer a dog owner single shots? If they don't want to do that or can't do that, why not suggest to the owners that they buy the single shots themselves and bring them to the vet's office to administer? And what about the chemical adjuvents in these vaccines, like mercury, aluminum, MSG, etc.? Why aren't pet owners handed a package insert to read before their dogs are carted off to the back and given a shot? We need to know what is in these shots, but nobody seems to want to offer the info. And no, I don't trust that the FDA/USDA is protecting us and our dogs from dangers and that the vaccines are safe. 

Sorry for all the questions and rant, but I just have so many doubts about this whole thing.

*Of course I know that toy dogs are at risk for contracting disease. *But imo, I don't think that all dogs should be lumped into the same category for vaccine risk assessment, especially since a Maltese receives the exact same vaccine dose as does a Great Dane. That horrifies me and I think that if enough pet owners become informed and start questioning, maybe things will change.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Basically the whole vaccine issue hits a very HOT button for me. So advance apologies if I sound cranky about it.
> 
> I'd like to know the number of dogs who have contracted Parvo after receiving a previous Parvo vaccination, and whether the virus they contracted is mutated strain, or the same exact strain they were vaccinated with. If it is a mutated strain, then alll dogs are at risk for mutated viruses, period.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

When the dogs have gotten their parvo vaccinations would be important to know, too. Too often greeders give vaccinations themselves at only six weeks old, when the puppies still have maternal antibodies in their system from nursing which block the vaccine. They are only 25% effective, then.

In one study of a cross section of different puppies the age at which they were able to respond to a vaccine and develop protection covered a wide period of time. At six weeks of age, 25% of the puppies could be immunized. At 9 weeks of age, 40% of the puppies were able to respond to the vaccine. The number increased to 60% by 16 weeks, and by 18 weeks of age, 95% of the puppies could be immunized. 

Parvovirus: Serious Diarrhea in Puppies & Dogs

Puppies who start their vaccinations too soon finish them too soon. As that study showed, puppies are 18-20 weeks old before they can be fully immunized.

If it is proven that parvo vaccinations do not provide lifetime immunity, they are available in single dose vaccines of just the parvo virus. No need to boost with a combo shot if parvo is the only concern.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> When the dogs have gotten their parvo vaccinations would be important to know, too. Too often greeders give vaccinations themselves at only six weeks old, when the puppies still have maternal antibodies in their system from nursing which block the vaccine. They are only 25% effective, then.
> 
> ...


Yeah, well, my vet told me he was giving Nikki a parvo shot and the tech "took her to the back," which I despise. Never again. When I read the paperwork, the tech had given Nikki a DHPP instead of the single. Um, I didn't want her to get a combo shot. :smpullhair:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Yeah, well, my vet told me he was giving Nikki a parvo shot and the tech "took her to the back," which I despise. Never again. When I read the paperwork, the tech had given Nikki a DHPP instead of the single. Um, I didn't want her to get a combo shot. :smpullhair:


Revival sells the single dose parvo vaccine. If my vet didn't have it, I would just order it myself and have my vet do it. 

I would only do it if my dog was at risk for parvo, i.e. dog parks, doggie day care, meet ups, etc. As you said earlier, each dog should be evaluated individually for their risk.

In Lady's case, we stopped vaccinating her when she was diagnosed w/diabetes at age 6.5. I kept up with the rabies, but the last rabies shot she got at age 10 nearly killed her. I have modified her lifestyle to keep her risk low, especially since she is so prone to infections. She only goes out on my deck or in her stroller now, no more neighborhood walks. It is so hard for diabetics to recover from infections and disease, it is just not worth the risk.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's my schedule:

8 wks - DHPP, dewormer

12 wks - DHPP

15 wks - bile acid test

16 wks - DHPP

5 mos - Rabies
Mary, why do you do the bile acid test? I live overseas & this is not normal here so need input as to why do it & why at this age? Also, I have to have the rabies to travel internationally---it has to be given at the minimum of 30 days before travel. I need to get it ASAP since an emergency in the US would require me to already have had it---what is your suggestion in terms of timing on a now 12 wk. maltese? at 1.2 kilos presently?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

The dogs and puppies who seem to get hit most often with Parvo are dogs living in less than sanitary conditions (dirty kennels that don't often get disinfected), shelter dogs (picked up as strays or who are totally scared, overstressed dogs who've been dumped by their owners), and young puppies whose immunity is not fully developed. Suzan, I've been asking the same questions for years and getting the same blank stares. So, like you, I've made my own decisions. My puppies get shots at 8, 12 and 16 weeks. From the time they get their first shots I take them out in public. Exposing them to "germy air" helps to BOOST immunity in puppies. No, I don't let them roam around in public dog parks but I do carry them into Petsmart, and at outdoor malls and dog shows I will set them up in a pen and allow people to pat them. None have ever gotten sick. All other dogs in my home get a booster 1 year after their last puppy shot and then NO MORE shots EVER (except for Rabies). I do abide by our state laws on the Rabies issue because I have multiple dogs and should someone complain I will need to show proof of Rabies. Over the years I have taken in all kinds of rescues from all kinds of situations. I will always remember the one who arrived with kennel cough. I brought him to my vet, got antibiotics and the vet gave me antibiotics for the rest of the crew, assuring me that kennel cough was going to travel through the house. Skipper was the only one who got kennel cough ... and Skipper was the only one who had a current Bordatella vaccination. I'm done with vaccinations. I'd rather spend that money on cleaning supplies for my home and food, treats and toys for my dogs.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The new strain of parvo that has been recently published on is responsive to the current parvo vaccine. 
Here's the thing...how do you know which dog is in the 5% that the vaccine wasn't effective...or that the vaccines effectiveness did not last more than 3 or 5 years? Even if you say titer every year...how do you know your dog is not in the group whose titer drops 3 months later? My bottom line is not to vaccinate every year...it is to address the individual dog's risk and develop a vaccine protocol appropriate to the dog's risk level. My dogs are currently HIGH risk...so yes, I vaccinate them every 3 years. When we move back to a low risk area, I will feel much less inclined to vaccinate that frequently. I think a blanket statement of all dogs vaccinate for life is risky to some dogs. Even the 3 year protocol did not find 100% efficacy at 3 years in CHALLENGE STUDIES where the dogs were challenged with the disease (not just a titer). 

If you live in a parvo endemic area, having an inside dog is not a huge risk reducer. You bring it right into your house on your shoes every time you come in. Once again, BE AWARE OF YOUR RISK LEVEL. 

The bordetella vaccine only vaccinates for one type of bacterial kennel cough. Canine upper respiratory disease complex includes a lot of viral kennel coughs which cannot be vaccinated for. The goal with the bordetella vaccine it to prevent serious bordetella pneumonia as well as various claims that vaccinated dogs are less likely to contract viral kennel cough or will have a less severe case. The vaccine lasts likely not more than 6 months. Personally, I've not had kennel cough since I stopped vaccinating for bordetella. Since I would treat my dogs immediately for any suspected kennel cough, I do not see a big benefit to vaccinating for it.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> Here's my schedule:
> Mary, why do you do the bile acid test? I live overseas & this is not normal here so need input as to why do it & why at this age? Also, I have to have the rabies to travel internationally---it has to be given at the minimum of 30 days before travel. I need to get it ASAP since an emergency in the US would require me to already have had it---what is your suggestion in terms of timing on a now 12 wk. maltese? at 1.2 kilos presently?


Get the rabies now if you need to but wait at least 3 weeks before getting any other shots. Liver shunt/MVD (microvascular dysplasia) are known issues in Maltese. There are no genetic markers yet so breeders are forced to use their best judgment when breeding. The short answer on bile acid testing -- a bile acid test will tell what liver function is. I will never sell a puppy unless I know what that puppy's liver function is. This benefits me as a breeder because I know what a particular mating has produced. The bile acid test benefits a purchaser as well because the purchaser knows what the liver function is and there are no surprises later in life.


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

Maryh makes a valid argument for bile acid tests---I am my vet's ONLY client who has _ever _reqested a bile acid test--he actually had to research it since he initially told me he believed it "wouldn't be cost effective" (hey, I'll be the judge of that). Turns out it's a mere $80--and totally worth knowing what liver function is on your baby.
As for vaccinations, the vet I currently use (switched from theprevious one cuz she wanted vaccinations annually, no exceptions) doesn't recommend them more than once very 3 yrs once adulthood is reached. I have chosen not to titer, but rather stay with this protocol for my 2 Malts. My vet administers the annual Rabies (ugh) required here by law, but I give the others myself because at Atwoods (where I buy them) I can buy combo shots, individual vaccines, etc...*and *I hve the label right in front of me and see the contents clearly, both vaccine and adjutent. I also can see whether it utilizes a live or dead virus. ALL good and important information to have.
Be their advocate, ladies, cuz if it ain't us,they got no one.


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## Toby Cooper (May 30, 2008)

Hi,
I read about the pup I'm so glad that the pup survived the night. I do hope your visit with the vet will help him or her to understand that they don't always know everything. You show dog people have studied and learned about the breed and know a lot.

This might be a dumb question but is a Vet tech a helper or the Vet themselves? 

Linda and Toby


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

almitra said:


> Maryh makes a valid argument for bile acid tests---I am my vet's ONLY client who has _ever _reqested a bile acid test--he actually had to research it since he initially told me he believed it


Dr. Center, the developer of the bile acids test, recommends all Maltese puppies get a BAT:

The best approach to avoid "over diagnosis" is to test _bile acids in young dogs of highly affected breeds (at 4 mths of age) while they are clinically healthy and before they are adopted into pet homes._ Highly affected breeds include: Yorkshire Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Maltese, Tibetan Spaniels as well as many other "terrier" type breeds (Miniature Schnauzer, Lhasa Apso, Shih Tzu, Dachshund, Bichon Frise, Pekingese, Toy and Miniature Poodles, and Havanese and others). Proactive assessment of serum bile acids will limit the awkward circumstance imposed when an MVD dog, with minor health issues, is suddenly recognized to have abnormal bile acids by a pet owner's veterinarian. This circumstance can lead to unnecessary diagnostic confusion and unwarranted invasive tests such as liver biopsy and portovenography. _How old dogs should be at he time of initial testing has not been established._ Typically, abnormal bile acids DO NOT normalize as a dog ages ..... " 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-maltese-health-behavior/78171-bile-acid-test-2.html

PSVA and MVD Research Summary

Dr. Center has recently revised her protocol. She now recommends getting puppies tested at 16 weeks and again at six months:

http://www.ytca.org/health_CenterQuestionsExpress2010.pdf


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Toby Cooper said:


> Hi,
> I read about the pup I'm so glad that the pup survived the night. I do hope your visit with the vet will help him or her to understand that they don't always know everything. You show dog people have studied and learned about the breed and know a lot.
> 
> This might be a dumb question but is a Vet tech a helper or the Vet themselves?
> ...


My vet is also a breeder/exhibitor of toy dogs. He knows what I know and how I feel ... which is why this is all so confusing and frustrating for me. A vet tech is like a nurse; he/she can administer vaccinations and draw blood among other things (and every state has their own laws regulating what can and cannot be done by a vet tech).


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Here's the thing everyone has to remember regarding transmitting and receiving diseases: The stronger your dog's immune system is, the harder it will be for them to contract a virus or bacterial infection. The immune system is built up by a proper diet that contains nutrients AND GOOD QUALITY proteins, fresh water, clean air, exercise. and love. If you provide those things for your dog on a regular basis, the chances of them catching a disease are much lower. 

For me personally, I prefer keeping the immune system in good shape, and we avoid vaccinations and synthetic medications as much as possible, both for Nikki and for hubby and me as well.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Here's the thing everyone has to remember regarding transmitting and receiving diseases: The stronger your dog's immune system is, the harder it will be for them to contract a virus or bacterial infection. The immune system is built up by a proper diet that contains nutrients AND GOOD QUALITY proteins, fresh water, clean air, exercise. and love. If you provide those things for your dog on a regular basis, the chances of them catching a disease are much lower.
> 
> For me personally, I prefer keeping the immune system in good shape, and we avoid vaccinations and synthetic medications as much as possible, both for Nikki and for hubby and me as well.



I swear by colostrum as I know you do. I know Jan Rasmussen recommends it, too.

Being diabetic, Lady is prone to UTI's and other infections. She had a particularly terrible one 3 or 4 years ago caused by two different strains of E-coli. She had to be hospitalized twice and there was concern she would need IV antibiotics which my vet felt she might not be able to handle.

I started giving her colostrum. The results were amazing. Within two weeks, her insulin requirement was half what it had been for years. Knock wood, she never got another UTI. She had one little respiratory infection two years ago that cleared up right away on antibiotics.

I am absolutely convinced adding colostrum is the reason Lady is now 14.5 years old in spite of all her health problems.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Mary, I hope your veterinarian takes your complaints to heart and looks into how the staff are handling record-keeping. 

I think that one of my dogs barely survived poor record-keeping and management at a vet facility. The vets need to know what the staff is doing, and properly train and supervise. At a place I have gone to, at one point they had non-technician "assistants" and "receptionists" that were given, or took on, responsibilities they didn't perform competently. (for one example, misused abbreviations so that the boarding note said give Lysodren (medicine) 3 times a day--when it was supposed to be 3 times a week!)


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I found this on Jan Rassmussen's website about her interview with Dr. Jan Dodds:

When interviewing pet vaccination expert Dr. Jean Dodds for my book, she told me that a split dose works well, and that the USDA told her that manufacturers make vaccines up to ten times more powerful than necessary....

I asked Dr. Dodds for clarification: “For dogs of breed types weighing less than 12 pounds as adults, in parvovirus 2-c [CPV 2-c] endemic areas, I’d give a half dose of parvo vaccine at 6 weeks. Then for all parvo endemic and non-endemic areas, ... 3 weeks later [give] a half dose of distemper + parvo, then repeat it 3-4 weeks later. Then give rabies 3-4 weeks after that. You don’t need to measure titers after that, as this protocol should work well. For larger pups, the dose should be a full 1 ml each time.”........


Dr. Jordan adds: “All of the dogs that Dr. Blake has seen with parvo and distemper and kennel cough were all VACCINATED dogs ... the vaccine is not a guarantee, that is the point.” Dr. Blake told me that himself.
 
Protecting Dogs from Vaccine Reactions


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> I found this on Jan Rassmussen's website about her interview with Dr. Jan Dodds:
> 
> When interviewing pet vaccination expert Dr. Jean Dodds for my book, she told me that a split dose works well, and that the USDA told her that manufacturers make vaccines up to ten times more powerful than necessary....
> 
> ...



With rabies, they won't give a half dose, which is a shame because that's the worst one of all.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Good point, but with rabies, they won't give a split dose, which is a shame because that's the worst one of all.


That was posted in response to our discussion about the parvo virus and whether it provided lifelong immunity or should be boosted.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

ugh..I'm so nervous about my two getting their rabies booster sometime this month  They've never had any kind of reaction before, but I seriously worry about long-term affects on their immune system. I have two good friends that have lost three yorkies total to necrotizing encephalitis..they were normal one day and within 24 hours were seizuring and comatose. I'm just so scared that vaccines had something to do with it...but no one knows right now.


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

This is a very educational post and I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. I now have a few questions:

Could someone please give me their thoughts on the Lyme disease booster? Hunter is on frontline (from March to October) and we do live in a highly tick infested area (we live in New England and our yard has woods/brush on all 4 sides). 

From his paperwork he also appears to be due for a Heartworm, Borrelia, ehrl Test (3DX). A 4DX was done last year which included the above 3 and something called an "Ana Test"

Lastly, his DHLPP Booster is due in December (which he did receive last December).


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> That was posted in response to our discussion about the parvo virus and whether it provided lifelong immunity or should be boosted.



Oops, corrected my post. I meant to say, half-dose.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Erin, can you titer test instead?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Hunter's Mom said:


> This is a very educational post and I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. I now have a few questions:
> 
> Could someone please give me their thoughts on the Lyme disease booster? Hunter is on frontline (from March to October) and we do live in a highly tick infested area (we live in New England and our yard has woods/brush on all 4 sides).
> 
> ...


Hi Erin,

Like you, I live in tick heaven (really, tick h*ll), too. For as much as I do not like vaccinations, I am giving serious consideration to the Lyme vaccine. I woke up one morning a year ago and Apple (who had just turned a year old) would not walk. She could stand but wouldn't walk. My first thought was Lyme Disease as it can cause painfully inflamed joints. Sure enough that's what it was and she ended up on Doxycycline for 30 days. She was one of the lucky ones whose joints were affected and I was able to see that something was wrong. Not all dogs who get hit with Lyme Disease show symptoms. I was at my kennel club meeting last night, we were discussing Lyme Disease, and 3 of our members lost dogs last year to Lyme Disease. In all three cases there were no apparent symptoms until the dogs went into kidney failure. They were not old dogs and they were not dogs who live in outdoor kennels getting no attention ... one was a top show dog living like a king! I feel like I need to do something because my dogs are picking up ticks in my own yard, not out hiking in the woods. I was thinking of cutting down the large trees just outside my fenced dog yard but I found out last night that ticks love to live on birds, birds fly overhead, and ticks drop off them. So no place that has a heavy tick population is really safe. I feel like my only two options are Frontline or the Lyme vaccination and I'm really thinking that one shot is better than a monthly application of Frontline. My only other choice is to not let the dogs go outside and that is just not an option. They love being outdoors and I love that they are getting fresh air and exercise.

As for the DHLPP shot, I give my puppies a series of 3 DHPP (NO LEPTO) shots at 8, 12, and 16 wks, then again on the 1-yr anniversary of the 16 wk shot, and that's it. I started doing this when I got Timmy as a puppy. He is now 8 yrs. old and has never been sick. I do not titer them because there is all kinds of evidence out now that titering is not reliable either. My dogs all go out with me to lots of public places and lots of dog events and shows. They get good food, cleaning living, fresh air, lots of exercise, lots of love, and are very healthy. For which I am very thankful.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Hunter's Mom said:


> This is a very educational post and I appreciate the thoughtful discussion. I now have a few questions:
> 
> Could someone please give me their thoughts on the Lyme disease booster? Hunter is on frontline (from March to October) and we do live in a highly tick infested area (we live in New England and our yard has woods/brush on all 4 sides).
> 
> ...


If you think there is a chance that you won't catch a tick on Hunter before the crucial 24 hour period, then the Lyme Disease Vaccine is something to consider. But remember that a tick has to be attached for 24 hours before the disease can be spread to Hunter. Frontline does not prevent the tick from attaching, but will kill it within 24 hours. If he's on Frontline Plus, then I don't really see the need for the vaccine as well. So like Mary, you'll have to decide which is the lesser of 2 evils. If he's going to be on Frontline Plus anyway for fleas, then I personally would not do the Lyme Disease Vaccine. 

And you always want to give all vaccines separately and spread them out at least 3 weeks apart. The DHPP protocol is every 3 years. Don't let your vet try and tell you it's yearly because it's not. Rabies is different for every state so you'll have to check. Most states have gone to 3 years. Lepto (the L in DHLPP) is only good for approx. 6 months but only given yearly. Lepto is only recommended if it is prevalent in your area. My Zoe was the first documented case for Lepto at my vet's clinic. Lepto is the vaccine most Malts have a reaction to. If your dog has a reaction and he was given a group of vaccines, you will not be able to determine which vaccine he had the reaction to. Also, that many vaccines in their system is just way too much and can make them sick, sore and cause reactions.

On a side note, if you do the separate Lepto vaccine, make sure it's the new 4-way vaccine. Much fewer reactions to that one. I always pre-medicate with Benadryl prior to all vaccines. Also, stay away from Fort Dodge brand of Rabies Vaccine. It was the one that was causing circular bald patches in dogs a few years ago. Most vets don't use it anymore I'm told but there are some die hards that may still. There is speculation that those bald spots can develop into tumors.


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

jmm said:


> The new strain of parvo that has been recently published on is responsive to the current parvo vaccine.
> Here's the thing...how do you know which dog is in the 5% that the vaccine wasn't effective...or that the vaccines effectiveness did not last more than 3 or 5 years? Even if you say titer every year...how do you know your dog is not in the group whose titer drops 3 months later? My bottom line is not to vaccinate every year...it is to address the individual dog's risk and develop a vaccine protocol appropriate to the dog's risk level. My dogs are currently HIGH risk...so yes, I vaccinate them every 3 years. When we move back to a low risk area, I will feel much less inclined to vaccinate that frequently. I think a blanket statement of all dogs vaccinate for life is risky to some dogs. Even the 3 year protocol did not find 100% efficacy at 3 years in CHALLENGE STUDIES where the dogs were challenged with the disease (not just a titer).
> 
> If you live in a parvo endemic area, having an inside dog is not a huge risk reducer. You bring it right into your house on your shoes every time you come in. Once again, BE AWARE OF YOUR RISK LEVEL.
> ...


I have been reading this thread and really appreciate it so much.

Mary, I admire you so much for how you follow-up with the fluff babies that have gone to their forever homes. You are the first breeder that I have heard of who cares enough to take calls in the middle of the night when a puppy is not well or who may be in some kind of danger. Bless your heart.

Jackie, I am reading your posts and appreciate the information you are sharing with us. My stomach has been in knots deciding if Snowball should have the Lepto vaccine. I have discussed it with Dr. Krisi ... and, we are thinking it might be best to have Snowball vaccinated for Lepto. Only because my immune system is compromised. And, therefore, not only could Snowball be at risk ... because we, too, live in a high risk area ... but, I could be at risk. Still, I have been hesitating ... even though I was the one who brought up the question of possibly vaccinating Snowball with the Lepto vaccine. 

Snowball just had the bordetella (nasal) two days ago. In October he is due for his three year rabies vaccine. : ( 

I must say that Snowball's vet has been so careful with vaccinations. She does not push vaccines that are not necessary. However, after reading your imput about bordetella ... I will be asking questions about that. Maybe he doesn't need that one since our groomer has been coming to our home to groom Snowball every few months?

As for Parvo ... that is worrying me now, too. 

All of these vaccines in such a tiny body really worries me so much. : (


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Mary and Erin,

The lyme vaccine does not mean you should not use Frontline. Lyme is only one of a number of serious tick-borne diseases out there (Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and Ehrlichia are the other two most common). In addition, the lyme vaccine is not 100% effective...I've seen reports as low as 60% effective. I do not feel a Lyme vaccine negates the need for continuing to take preventative measures against ticks. Yes Lyme is serious and could cause kidney failure - SO COULD ERHLICHIA. Don't feel a false sense of safety if you give the lyme vaccine.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Marie,
I use to live in your area. Soda Pop contracted lepto as a puppy. I feel for you trying to make the decision. It may help to know that the new lepto 4-way does not cause the same reactions the old one did. I have been giving it due to the high risk.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

jmm said:


> Mary and Erin,
> 
> The lyme vaccine does not mean you should not use Frontline. Lyme is only one of a number of serious tick-borne diseases out there (Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and Ehrlichia are the other two most common). In addition, the lyme vaccine is not 100% effective...I've seen reports as low as 60% effective. I do not feel a Lyme vaccine negates the need for continuing to take preventative measures against ticks. Yes Lyme is serious and could cause kidney failure - SO COULD ERHLICHIA. Don't feel a false sense of safety if you give the lyme vaccine.


Uggghhh!!!! Thanks, Jackie. Looks like it will be a Frontline summer. The good news is that I can split the dosage among a few and also less trips to a vet office that I'm not happy with right now.

Mary


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

jmm said:


> Marie,
> 
> I use to live in your area. Soda Pop contracted lepto as a puppy. I feel for you trying to make the decision. It may help to know that the new lepto 4-way does not cause the same reactions the old one did. I have been giving it due to the high risk.


Thank you, Jackie. I really hate doing this ... but, I think because of the risks, we will go ahead and get him vaccinated for Lepto. 

Gosh, I am paranoid when he goes outside now.  Learning that ticks fall of off the trees makes me nervous, too!  We have a huge maple tree with branches right over deck. So, between mosquitoes and ticks ... I don't even want Snowball out on our deck right now. Oh, and hawks fly over every once in a while, too. :smpullhair:


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## babygirlmom (Jul 3, 2007)

Even if you sent something in writing, they might still just shrug it off...they want the money & don't give a darn about the dog; especially one like a Maltese! How upsetting!


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## Jayne (Feb 12, 2010)

I think the major problem might be that the new owner of a puppy is afraid.. I think they are afraid if they don't do what the vet says the puppy may get mortally ill.. Most people aren't vets and they look to them to stear them in the right direction.. I believe that little by little the truth is getting out, but not fast enough unfortunately.. Maybe, all potential adopters should be required to read something like Scared Poopless before the puppy is released to them.. I'm just throwing that out,and have no idea how you could control such a thing, but at least if even one person became aware, then that one person might tell another.. .. I even have fears at times myself, and I am aware of the facts concerning innoculations, etc.. Titer test I hear aren't 100% sure.. I don't know, I'm just throwing things out here.. It's a real problem, and I feel your anger also..At least there are vets that are aware and hopefully there will be more in the future..Sorry this happened to one of your little ones...


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## EmmasMommy (Jun 2, 2008)

Hi Mary,

I totally understand your frustration. Thank goodness your baby boy seems to have weathered the storm well.

Perhaps in the future you could draft a "letter to the new vet" that could be given to any new vet/vet tech and explain the "whys" behind your contract stipulations regarding immunizations. Maybe write: "PLEASE CONTACT ME BEFORE YOU ADMINISTER IMMUNIZATIONS if you want to give them in another sequence"

You are doing the best you can to offer the pup the least danger and the best outcome. Sometimes people ( vets and vet techs who treat all breeds) get wrapped up in "generalities" and don't know better.
When you know better, you do better.

Good luck in the future.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

So I had my vet visit yesterday ... To say that everybody there had an "all business" look on their face when I arrived would be an understatement. Clearly, the receptionist passed on my sentiments after our Tuesday morning conversation! I asked the vet tech if the records now reflect that the third DHPP shot in the series was given. She said that it had always been there and I said that it hadn't based on my conversation Tuesday when I asked exactly what the records said. And I asked why if the records were correct was the new owner told that another DHPP shot was needed. She responded that the third shot must be given at 16 wks. I said it was given at 16 wks, she said it was not. Oh dear, the third shot was given at 15 wks, 5 days. For the sake of 2 days short of 16 wks. she (not the vet) took the position that another shot was needed. I reminded her that I advised the puppy owner that the puppy had been fully vaccinated and by her, the vet tech, telling the owner that it was not makes me out to be either ignorant of the needs of the puppy or worse yet a liar. And that while she may feel that she has an obligation to advise new dog owners, she also has an obligation to me as a longstanding client of their practice. If she felt that I had given erroneous advice she should have CALLED ME! Furthermore, I asked what they were all thinking in giving a 3.5 lb puppy 3 different vaccinations plus an application of Frontline all in the same visit. She said the owner agreed to it all ... and then she left the room. In comes my vet with the same not very friendly look on his face. I said "Clearly you know that I'm not happy about what happened on Monday." He said "It won't happen again but you need to advise us as well as your new puppy owners as to what you do and do not want done to your puppy." I left it at that because the air was so heavy with discomfort all the way around I knew that they all got the message. On my way out I picked up new health histories for each puppy and each history reflected the correct information. Now I need to let it go and do it differently next time. But next time means that I will not let a puppy go until I have the name, address and fax number of the vet that the new owners will be using so that I can fax a letter containing the health history along with my instructions and recommendations to the vet and staple a copy of that letter to the sale contract.

The good news is that the puppy is doing fine.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

babygirlmom said:


> Even if you sent something in writing, they might still just shrug it off...they want the money & don't give a darn about the dog; especially one like a Maltese! How upsetting!


They may shrug it off and that I cannot control. In defense of the vets, I honestly don't think it's about money as much as it's about doing things the way they've always done them ... the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. The veterinary community itself cannot agree about what is appropriate when it comes to vaccinations. Thankfully we have trailblazers like Dr. Jean Dodds but she is one in a million. And until the veterinary community demands more research from veterinary researchers and vaccine manufacturers there is little hope of changing the minds of the vets and vet techs who are stuck in the past. Our best hope is to try to educate new puppy owners about vaccines and about the fact that they, not those in their vet practice, have the right to control what is and is not done to their puppy.


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

I wish they would do more research on titre testing... vets seem to just want to vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> So I had my vet visit yesterday ... To say that everybody there had an "all business" look on their face when I arrived would be an understatement. Clearly, the receptionist passed on my sentiments after our Tuesday morning conversation! I asked the vet tech if the records now reflect that the third DHPP shot in the series was given. She said that it had always been there and I said that it hadn't based on my conversation Tuesday when I asked exactly what the records said. And I asked why if the records were correct was the new owner told that another DHPP shot was needed. She responded that the third shot must be given at 16 wks. I said it was given at 16 wks, she said it was not. Oh dear, the third shot was given at 15 wks, 5 days. For the sake of 2 days short of 16 wks. she (not the vet) took the position that another shot was needed. I reminded her that I advised the puppy owner that the puppy had been fully vaccinated and by her, the vet tech, telling the owner that it was not makes me out to be either ignorant of the needs of the puppy or worse yet a liar. And that while she may feel that she has an obligation to advise new dog owners, she also has an obligation to me as a longstanding client of their practice. If she felt that I had given erroneous advice she should have CALLED ME! Furthermore, I asked what they were all thinking in giving a 3.5 lb puppy 3 different vaccinations plus an application of Frontline all in the same visit. She said the owner agreed to it all ... and then she left the room. In comes my vet with the same not very friendly look on his face. I said "Clearly you know that I'm not happy about what happened on Monday." He said "It won't happen again but you need to advise us as well as your new puppy owners as to what you do and do not want done to your puppy." I left it at that because the air was so heavy with discomfort all the way around I knew that they all got the message. On my way out I picked up new health histories for each puppy and each history reflected the correct information. Now I need to let it go and do it differently next time. But next time means that I will not let a puppy go until I have the name, address and fax number of the vet that the new owners will be using so that I can fax a letter containing the health history along with my instructions and recommendations to the vet and staple a copy of that letter to the sale contract.
> 
> The good news is that the puppy is doing fine.


 
Mary, you handled a very difficult situation perfectly and clearly it seems they got your message. Yup, sometimes you just have to leave it at that, because most imporantly, the message was received, acknowledged and understood. 

And wonderful that the little guy is doing great 

This is a great lesson to all of us, so thank you for sharing.


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## misti9er (Mar 24, 2009)

Im worried about vaccinations,


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I hope that more vets agree to titer testing in the future. I know it's not perfect, but neither are vaccinations. Most vets have no clue what else is in the vaccination besides the virus itself, and the additives aren't the best things for our dogs. Also, I wish that they didn't give Maltese the same vaccination dose as a Great Dane. That makes me nervous.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I hope that more vets agree to titer testing in the future. I know it's not perfect, but neither are vaccinations. Most vets have no clue what else is in the vaccination besides the virus itself, and the additives aren't the best things for our dogs. Also, I wish that they didn't give Maltese the same vaccination dose as a Great Dane. That makes me nervous.


 
I agree.
Milo was due his boosters last week but I haven't gotten them done yet - I'm still debating it.


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## MaxnMinnie (Aug 5, 2010)

vaccinations are such a confusing subject...when I first got minnie..I took her to banfield and they wanted to give her a ton of vaccines (a ridiculous amount)..thank goodness I did some research and I knew better so I said no way and found a vet who I agree with...


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

I don't think Banfield (in Petsmart) is a very good place to take dogs... if you have a dog park nearby, I recommend you go and ask around which vet people are going to/liking (don't take your fluff until she's fully vaccinated though). Word of mouth recommendations are very helpful. But Banfield is just a money making /not high quality org...


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## MaxnMinnie (Aug 5, 2010)

maltlovereileen said:


> I don't think Banfield (in Petsmart) is a very good place to take dogs... if you have a dog park nearby, I recommend you go and ask around which vet people are going to/liking (don't take your fluff until she's fully vaccinated though). Word of mouth recommendations are very helpful. But Banfield is just a money making /not high quality org...


I agree..I am not going anywhere near banfield...I really like my current vet very much.
.when minnie got sick with upper respiratory infection.
she would call my home in the morning to check up on how minnie was...she was also very good at recommending only the necessary amount of vaccinations
..


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

My vet is getting much better about vaccinations. I went through a couple of vets before I returned to him. We still disagree somewhat, be he is willing to listen.


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