# Angel Glow vs. Angel Eyes



## Cupcake2007 (Jan 22, 2008)

I know on here I've heard of Angel eyes working for stains pretty good. I have heard from others that Angel glow works better. I have never heard of it. I was wondering what is the best way to get rid of stains... CupCake is having problems my poor crazy


Thanks


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## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

*Angels Eyes & Angels Glow are the same thing, just different names. If you're going to use an antibiotic like those, just use straight Tylan powder. Use for 10 days on, 10 days off. If the staining doesn't look like it's growing out, use for another 10 days.

With Cupcake being as old as she is, her staining might be fixed by Tylan, or it could very well be allergies to food or her surroundings.*


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

QUOTE (LJSquishy @ Oct 13 2008, 10:17 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=649725


> *Angels Eyes & Angels Glow are the same thing, just different names. If you're going to use an antibiotic like those, just use straight Tylan powder. Use for 10 days on, 10 days off. If the staining doesn't look like it's growing out, use for another 10 days.
> 
> With Cupcake being as old as she is, her staining might be fixed by Tylan, or it could very well be allergies to food or her surroundings.*[/B]



What she said! :goodpost:


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## cloey70 (Jan 6, 2008)

Yea, I've used both Angel eyes and Tylan. Angel Eyes takes alot longer, where as Tylan is 10 days, just like the others have said.


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## joannem (May 19, 2008)

QUOTE (CupCake2007 @ Oct 13 2008, 02:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=649668


> I know on here I've heard of Angel eyes working for stains pretty good. I have heard from others that Angel glow works better. I have never heard of it. I was wondering what is the best way to get rid of stains... CupCake is having problems my poor crazy
> 
> 
> Thanks[/B]


angel's glow is the best, u need to give it time to work. follow the directions as it has an antibiotic in it


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## lilc5 (Dec 6, 2009)

At how young can I start giving Angel Glow?


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

You can usually start as soon as they are through developing adult teeth. As long as the bud is formed and coming in the staining that can occur with Tetracycline will not occur. Buying powder Tylan is actually cheaper than buying it as Angel Eyes or Angel's Glow. Tylan Tylan will not stain teeth at any time. 

They should pin the thread with the directions on how to use this. You give a "pinch" a day. It's about 1/8 of a teaspoon a day. I would use it for 30 days and stop and evaluate its effectiveness. You will see the hair next to the inner eye coming in white. Tetracycline 500 mg is actually better. I buy the Tetracycline from PetsMart in the fish department. It comes in a box with 10 packets of medication. It's about $15. Make sure it is 500 mg. I open a packet and give a "pinch" a day for 30 days. Then I reevaluate and see if the hair is coming in white or not. The eye buggers turn clear. 
I do the 30 days because that is the average that I hear recommended by veterinarians. Swapping stories at dog shows between exhibitors. In the mean time I am cleaning the face and using boric acid and cornstarch to keep the face drier. 
Drugs that have been approved for OTC use without a prescription is what I purchase at PetsMart. Not all drugs are used for what they are prescribed for. Checking with your veterinarian to make sure your dog doesn't have a pre-existing problem is a good thing to do. I only do this treatment one time. OTC medications are available at Pet Stores and Farm Stores. Of coarse you need to use discretion when using any medications. You would not be able to purchase these medications without a prescription if they were not available OTC. Of coarse, this is the "poor" man's way of doing things. As with any OTC drug the strength of the medication will not be the same as the prescribed medication. Example: IBP as an OTC isn't as effective as the prescribed IBP 800mg. At least not for me.
I would rather use a medication that I know what is in it and what the side effects are than using something like Angel Eyes that has an unknown amount of antibiotic and unknown ingredients. 
JMO <flame suit>


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## Jayne (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks to all of you for your information..I have battled this for years and found Angel eyes to be not working that well for me.. The tetracycline sounds like that might be the answer. My question is though...Is it safe to give and antibiotic for that length of time? I'm headed to the fish dept at PetsMart if it is....!!!!!!!!!
Jayne


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Tina said:


> You can usually start as soon as they are through developing adult teeth. As long as the bud is formed and coming in the staining that can occur with Tylan or tetracycline will not occur. Buying powder Tylan is actually cheaper than buying it as Angel Eyes or Angel's Glow. Tylan
> 
> They should pin the thread with the directions on how to use this. You give a "pinch" a day. It's about 1/8 of a teaspoon a day. I would use it for 30 days and stop and evaluate its effectiveness. You will see the hair next to the inner eye coming in white. Tetracycline 500 mg is actually better. I buy the Tetracycline from PetsMart in the fish department. It comes in a box with 10 packets of medication. It's about $15. Make sure it is 500 mg. I open a packet and give a "pinch" a day for 30 days. Then I reevaluate and see if the hair is coming in white or not. The eye buggers turn clear.
> I do the 30 days because that is the average that I hear recommended by veterinarians. Swapping stories at dog shows between exhibitors. JMO


Tina - I first learned about it from handlers at dog shows and swear by it.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Jayne said:


> Thanks to all of you for your information..I have battled this for years and found Angel eyes to be not working that well for me.. The tetracycline sounds like that might be the answer. My question is though...Is it safe to give and antibiotic for that length of time? I'm headed to the fish dept at PetsMart if it is....!!!!!!!!!
> Jayne


It is very low dose. A veterinarian actually told me to do this for the two boys he saw. It seems like a long time, but with animals they are typically given the same antibiotic we are on, on a longer coarse of time. It does work. Then after that you give it on a need only basis.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

500 mg is a HUGE dose of tetracycline for a Maltese. I would never administer fish antibiotics to a dog, especially at an incorrect dose. 

Tylan does not cause tooth staining.

Personally I find all of this self-dosing of antibiotics to be dangerous. My 2 year old dog is going to *DIE* because of antibiotic resistance. It is NOT a joke.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Tina said:


> It is very low dose. A veterinarian actually told me to do this for the two boys he saw. It seems like a long time, but with animals they are typically given the same antibiotic we are on, on a longer coarse of time. It does work. Then after that you give it on a need only basis.


A low dose? For a dog with a serious systemic bacterial infection the dose is 25 mg/kg three times daily. For a 6 lb dog that's about 70 mg three times a day. An entire day's dosing doesn't come close to 500 mg. That is a dangerous recommendation Tina.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

jmm said:


> 500 mg is a HUGE dose of tetracycline for a Maltese. I would never administer fish antibiotics to a dog, especially at an incorrect dose.
> 
> Tylan does not cause tooth staining.
> 
> Personally I find all of this self-dosing of antibiotics to be dangerous. My 2 year old dog is going to *DIE* because of antibiotic resistance. It is NOT a joke.


I don't think that antibiotic resistance is a joke. Where do you think MRSA came from? I *know* that Tylan doesn't cause tooth staining. Everyone else does, so why fight it? Tetracycline *only *causes staining if it is given when the adult teeth are *forming*. They give it to children for acne. Anything developing (bones) at the time of administration *can* become stained yellow. They found this out when pregnant women were given it and the bones and teeth of their babies were yellow. 
Veterinarians think that tear staining is cosmetic. They don't take it seriously. Good thing they do help me (human dr) with my psoriasis, it is cosmetic but very distressing to me having scaly skin and people's rude remarks. With that in mind, since veterinarians won't help, where do you turn? Antibiotics are antibiotics whether they are labeled for people, fish, livestock or dogs. Open a 500mg capsule of Tetracycline for humans and compare it with the antibiotic in the packet for fish. Mix them up and see if you can tell which is which? You can't. 
Jackie, it is *only* a pinch. Not the whole 500mg is given. They don't even get the whole packet by the time the 30 days is up. This dosage of Tetracycline seems to work the best and the fastest way to clear up the staining. It is clinging onto the porphyrins that is in the tears. At the very most the dog will recieve is 500mg over a 30 day span of time. It is not going to cause antibiotic resistance. 
I don't know what your dog was on, or why your dog became resistant to what ever antibiotic it was on, I am sorry. Some strains of bacteria can become resistant to particular antibiotics. That is why a culture is done to make sure your taking the right antibiotic for whatever bacteria you have. That is why there are so many different types of antibiotics. When a person isn't responding to the antibiotic given a culture is done to find out what the strain of bacteria is sensative to. I loved microbiology in college.


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## spookiesmom (Mar 28, 2010)

When Spookie came home, her little face was a mess. At her 1st vet check up, I asked him about Angel Eyes, he said it was ok to give to her. A pinch, mixed in a little wet food, down the hatch it went. We used the whole bottle, the small one. Finished it in late Jan. She hasn't had a problem since, her permanent teeth have come in and look just fine.

Just our experience with it.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Sorry, Tina...I cannot agree with you to give a guestimated dose of antibiotics to a dog for 30 days for a cosmetic issue.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

jmm said:


> Sorry, Tina...I cannot agree with you to give a guestimated dose of antibiotics to a dog for 30 days for a cosmetic issue.


Your right. :thumbsup: We have plastic surgeons for our vanity too.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

In general I'm as opposed to giving my dogs antibiotics as I am to giving them unnecessary vaccinations. I'm also opposed to using pesticides on my lawn or on my dogs. But when all else fails sometimes even I will do things that I'm generally opposed to doing. I do think of tearstaining as a cosmetic issue and other than using eye rinse, brushing cornstarch or a cornstarch/boric acid mix on the hair underneath the eyes, keeping my home as dust free as possible, and using an air purifier/filter in the dog room I do nothing else to any puppies. Once teething is over with if the tearstaining continues I have the tearducts flushed and use a vet prescribed eye drop twice a day for 10 days. If all of the foregoing attempts fail only then will I resort to antibiotics. And, honestly, I'm going to use antibiotics rather than Eye Envy, Angel Eyes or any other over the counter tearstain remover because they ALL contain one type of antibiotic or another and I would rather know exactly what the antibiotic is and how much of it my dog is getting. So I use Tylan, 1/8 tsp. mixed with 1/2 gallon of Brita filtered water and let the dogs drink it. I agree with Jackie that we should not be self-dosing antibiotics for this, that or the other thing. But many vets, my own included, will recommend using Tylan or Tetracycline short-term in an attempt to get rid of tearstaining. I do not get Tylan from my vet as he only sells it in capsule form. I buy it online and it's sold as an antibiotic for treating chronic respiratory diseases in chickens and turkeys. I agree with Tina that antibiotics are antibiotics and while they may be marketed differently for humans, cattle, poultry, fish, dogs or cats they are still the same antibiotics. Again, I only use an antibiotic as an absolute last resort in clearing up tearstaining.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

MaryH said:


> In general I'm as opposed to giving my dogs antibiotics as I am to giving them unnecessary vaccinations. I'm also opposed to using pesticides on my lawn or on my dogs. But when all else fails sometimes even I will do things that I'm generally opposed to doing. I do think of tearstaining as a cosmetic issue and other than using eye rinse, brushing cornstarch or a cornstarch/boric acid mix on the hair underneath the eyes, keeping my home as dust free as possible, and using an air purifier/filter in the dog room I do nothing else to any puppies. Once teething is over with if the tearstaining continues I have the tearducts flushed and use a vet prescribed eye drop twice a day for 10 days. If all of the foregoing attempts fail only then will I resort to antibiotics. And, honestly, I'm going to use antibiotics rather than Eye Envy, Angel Eyes or any other over the counter tearstain remover because they ALL contain one type of antibiotic or another and I would rather know exactly what the antibiotic is and how much of it my dog is getting. So I use Tylan, 1/8 tsp. mixed with 1/2 gallon of Brita filtered water and let the dogs drink it. I agree with Jackie that we should not be self-dosing antibiotics for this, that or the other thing. But many vets, my own included, will recommend using Tylan or Tetracycline short-term in an attempt to get rid of tearstaining. I do not get Tylan from my vet as he only sells it in capsule form. I buy it online and it's sold as an antibiotic for treating chronic respiratory diseases in chickens and turkeys. I agree with Tina that antibiotics are antibiotics and while they may be marketed differently for humans, cattle, poultry, fish, dogs or cats they are still the same antibiotics. Again, I only use an antibiotic as an absolute last resort in clearing up tearstaining.


:goodpost: I agree. I do it as a last resort. That is why you see my puppies with eye staining. I have just found that when my dogs are on Tetracycline it clears up the staining faster and in less time and stays away longer than when I use Tylan. So, they are getting less antibiotics over time. The dosing I use was actually given to me by a veterinarian in Decater, IL. I know a pinch. Everyone has their idea of a pinch. Antibiotics isn't something I take "lightly". It has its uses.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Tina said:


> :goodpost: I agree. I do it as a last resort. That is why you see my puppies with eye staining. I have just found that when my dogs are on Tetracycline it clears up the staining faster and in less time and stays away longer than when I use Tylan. So, they are getting less antibiotics over time. The dosing I use was actually given to me by a veterinarian in Decater, IL. I know a pinch. Everyone has their idea of a pinch. Antibiotics isn't something I take "lightly". It has its uses.


Tina, my vet said "a pinch" on the food, too. I told him that a breeder friend recommended 1/4 tsp. mixed with water but that I thought it was too strong so I'd rather try 1/8 tsp. My vet said the dogs would never drink the water because it would be too bitter tasting. However, my dogs do drink it and drink as much as they would have had it been just water. So my vet tried it with a couple of his dogs and, much to his surprise, his dogs drank the water without hesitation, too. :thumbsup:


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

Just wondering-how can Eye Envy have an antibiotic in it when it is not for oral use? It's just to help remove the actual staining on the hair itself and isn't suppose to even touch the eye or even be ingested? I see a lot of people confusing Eye Envy with Angel Eyes or Tylan..when it's just not the same thing. Also Eye Envy doesn't list the ingredients so how can you know what exactly is in it unless you've had tests done on it or the company has told you? Just wondering if you're privy to some other information out there that showed it's ingreidents?


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

iheartbisou said:


> Just wondering-how can Eye Envy have an antibiotic in it when it is not for oral use? It's just to help remove the actual staining on the hair itself and isn't suppose to even touch the eye or even be ingested? I see a lot of people confusing Eye Envy with Angel Eyes or Tylan..when it's just not the same thing. Also Eye Envy doesn't list the ingredients so how can you know what exactly is in it unless you've had tests done on it or the company has told you? Just wondering if you're privy to some other information out there that showed it's ingreidents?


As far as I know, Eye Envy does not have an antibiotic in it. It isn't for oral consumption. The ingredients are unknown as far as I know. What I do know is that is smells like witch hazel. It works like an astrigent in taking the color out of the coat. 
The best product I found for removing staining from the face is this: Eye Cleaner (Occhio Pulito) : Iv San Bernard (USA & Canada), Fine Italian Pet Grooming Products and Equipment
And it does list the ingredients. It is expensive. Their detangler is great too.
I have tested using witch hazel without the alcohol and eye envy before. I used one on one side and the other on the other side. It was very similar in how it worked (or didn't work). I am not a diligent person, I am like alot of people, I want a quick fix. You can't be like that when your working with Maltese. :blush:
The only product that I know that is used for external uses with a type of antibiotic is Chris Christensen's product Peace and Kindness Peace & Kindness I've sprayed it on the beard and then dried it and it seems to help with the staining. It keeps the red fungus away.
To be the person to discover the cure for tear staining.............$$.



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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

Tina said:


> As far as I know, Eye Envy does not have an antibiotic in it. It isn't for oral consumption. The ingredients are unknown as far as I know. What I do know is that is smells like witch hazel. It works like an astrigent in taking the color out of the coat.
> The best product I found for removing staining from the face is this: Eye Cleaner (Occhio Pulito) : Iv San Bernard (USA & Canada), Fine Italian Pet Grooming Products and Equipment
> And it does list the ingredients. It is expensive. Their detangler is great too.
> I have tested using witch hazel without the alcohol and eye envy before. I used one on one side and the other on the other side. It was very similar in how it worked (or didn't work). I am not a diligent person, I am like alot of people, I want a quick fix. You can't be like that when your working with Maltese. :blush:
> ...


I believe Eye Envy used to have an herbal antibiotic in it. I'm not sure if it does, anymore or not. I asked the company for the ingredient list, years ago, because I couldn't touch any type of abx with my fingers. I have an auto immune disease that was caused by overuse of birth control pills and antibiotics. I was treated with traditional meds for years and then went to a holistic doctor. 

I've learned two things. Be careful of advice giving/given, because even though I had a yahoo group list for 50 women that went to the same holistic doctor for the same disease, none of us were supposed to discuss treatment, as it was varied depending on our individual bodies. So, be careful of giving out advice on what doses of meds to use. (also working for a vet, even tho this is part of my job requirement, I have to be careful when I am not at the clinic, or it can be miscontrued as "giving out medical advice" and that is not legal in some states). 

The other thing I learned was, abx (antibiotics) can do WAY more damage to the body, other than "abx resistance". It is just not good to have a physical body on abx for extended periods of time, I don't care what the dose is. 

Tina, you hit the nail on the head, re: this subject. Dilegence. You HAVE to be dilegent with tear staining, no matter what product you use toically. I use pro-line self rinse shampoo and/or Castebaths' Anna's products. (you can do a google search for both) but the secret is doing it EVERY day, even twice a day and then you HAVE to keep the hair out of the eyes. 

Ritzy was terrible stained when she came to me. I cleaned that face morning and night for weeks. you think it isn't working, because if you expect instant, you won't get instant. You have to keep it up..it will pay off and then you have to do it from that point on. I do her out, every night. I don't care if it is 1am...Ritzy is the last thing I take care of at night before bed. I used to do her every morning, but I don't have to do that anymore. I hear all kinds of excuses "I'm too busy" "I don't have time" "S/he won't hold still". Those are, just excuses because you have to make it a priority to do it.

To me, abx are an easy way out, a quick fix at the risk of the dog's health. Try something topical and give it a few months, using it daily. It is worth the work.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

iheartbisou said:


> Just wondering-how can Eye Envy have an antibiotic in it when it is not for oral use? It's just to help remove the actual staining on the hair itself and isn't suppose to even touch the eye or even be ingested? I see a lot of people confusing Eye Envy with Angel Eyes or Tylan..when it's just not the same thing. Also Eye Envy doesn't list the ingredients so how can you know what exactly is in it unless you've had tests done on it or the company has told you? Just wondering if you're privy to some other information out there that showed it's ingreidents?


Eye Envy did, at least early on, have an antibiotic in it and the company did admit to it. I can't remember now what the antibiotic was. I got it as a free sample at one of our specialties, followed the directions for pouring the liquid into the jar of cotton pads and then refrigerating it (back then it needed to be refrigerated, not sure if it does anymore). It apparently had a shelf life that was not printed on any of the instruction materials we were given because about 3 mos. later I took it out of the refrigerator to throw it away, opened it up, and it was full of mold. A few people I knew bought the larger bottles of the stuff and had the same complaint about it getting moldy. Only after people complained about the mold and wanted to know what the ingredients were did Eye Envy admit that there was an antibiotic mixed into it.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

maltsnme said:


> I believe Eye Envy used to have an herbal antibiotic in it. I'm not sure if it does, anymore or not. I asked the company for the ingredient list, years ago, because I couldn't touch any type of abx with my fingers. I have an auto immune disease that was caused by overuse of birth control pills and antibiotics. I was treated with traditional meds for years and then went to a holistic doctor.
> 
> I've learned two things. Be careful of advice giving/given, because even though I had a yahoo group list for 50 women that went to the same holistic doctor for the same disease, none of us were supposed to discuss treatment, as it was varied depending on our individual bodies. So, be careful of giving out advice on what doses of meds to use. (also working for a vet, even tho this is part of my job requirement, I have to be careful when I am not at the clinic, or it can be miscontrued as "giving out medical advice" and that is not legal in some states).
> 
> ...


Giving out medical advise can open a Pandora's box for some people. I am just telling people what "works". Proven over the years and by people in the dog world. You can't win with a stained Maltese face. It is "cosmetic" in the world of veterinarians. To the people dealing with it, it is more than cosmetic. No one knows why the tetracycline binds with the porphyrins and stops the staining but it does. It gives you a chance to get ahead of the staining. I don't feel it is a quick fix or an easy way out. Obviously it changes the chemistry in the dog some how. 
I have been involved with animal veterinarian and human medicine since I was 17. I do have a medical background. I don't profess to be an expert. I have yet, to find anyone who is. 

I was disappointed in Anna's products. The way it was described it was supposed to be a great product. I bought it and then I found it was very very similar to Eye Envy. Smelled the same and worked the same. Very disappointing. Again, there isn't an ingredient label. 



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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

maltsnme said:


> I believe Eye Envy used to have an herbal antibiotic in it. I'm not sure if it does, anymore or not. I asked the company for the ingredient list, years ago, because I couldn't touch any type of abx with my fingers. I have an auto immune disease that was caused by overuse of birth control pills and antibiotics. I was treated with traditional meds for years and then went to a holistic doctor.
> 
> I've learned two things. Be careful of advice giving/given, because even though I had a yahoo group list for 50 women that went to the same holistic doctor for the same disease, none of us were supposed to discuss treatment, as it was varied depending on our individual bodies. So, be careful of giving out advice on what doses of meds to use. (also working for a vet, even tho this is part of my job requirement, I have to be careful when I am not at the clinic, or it can be miscontrued as "giving out medical advice" and that is not legal in some states).
> 
> ...


Giving out medical advise can open a Pandora's box for some people. I am just telling people what "works". Proven over the years and by people in the dog world. You can't win with a stained Maltese face. It is "cosmetic" in the world of veterinarians. To the people dealing with it, it is more than cosmetic. No one knows why the tetracycline binds with the porphyrins and stops the staining but it does. It gives you a chance to get ahead of the staining. I don't feel it is a quick fix or an easy way out. Obviously it changes the chemistry in the dog some how. 
I have been involved with animal veterinarian and human medicine since I was 17. I do have a medical background. I don't profess to be an expert. I have yet, to find anyone who is. 

I was disappointed in Anna's products. The way it was described it was supposed to be a great product. I bought it and then I found it was very very similar to Eye Envy. Smelled the same and worked the same. Very disappointing. Again, there isn't an ingredient label. 



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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I feel it is inappropriate to provide dosing instructions for an antibiotic meant to be prescription only. The state requires the veterinarian to have examined a patient to prescribe a medication. There is excellent reason behind this. Drugs like tetracycline can not only have unpleasant side effects, but dosing depends upon a dog's health status. A dog with a compromised liver of kidneys should not receive the same dose as a healthy dog...and tetracycline may not be the best selection of antibiotic for that dog at all. It can also have a negative interaction with some dietary supplements. We cannot know this over the internet. 

As far as Tylan goes...if you have a young dog you may want to run their labwork before you start Tylan. While on tylan dogs can have elevated liver enzymes. Its always important that your vet be kept in the loop.


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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

Tina said:


> Giving out medical advise can open a Pandora's box for some people. I am just telling people what "works". Proven over the years and by people in the dog world. You can't win with a stained Maltese face. It is "cosmetic" in the world of veterinarians. To the people dealing with it, it is more than cosmetic. No one knows why the tetracycline binds with the porphyrins and stops the staining but it does. It gives you a chance to get ahead of the staining. I don't feel it is a quick fix or an easy way out. Obviously it changes the chemistry in the dog some how.
> I have been involved with animal veterinarian and human medicine since I was 17. I do have a medical background. I don't profess to be an expert. I have yet, to find anyone who is.
> 
> I was disappointed in Anna's products. The way it was described it was supposed to be a great product. I bought it and then I found it was very very similar to Eye Envy. Smelled the same and worked the same. Very disappointing. Again, there isn't an ingredient label.
> ...


The problem is, Tina, what works for one dog, may not for another AND you always think people use common sense..they don't. "Oh if a bit works, more will work better". Trust me, being in the vet "business" for as long as I have, you can't assume that people will get it. And as Jackie pointed out, dogs with other health problems should only be given advice re: abx, from a veterinarian who is treating the dog and knows the dog's health history. Who knows what meds will counteract with other medications or medical conditions of a dog. 

If I had a vet that didn't listen to me, re: cosmetic problem, I'd find another vet. It is OUR job, at a clinic to LISTEN to our clients and if it is important to them, help them find a solution. PERIOD. That is how our clinic works. I wouldn't work for a vet that didn't think that way. (even the PITAs [Pain in the s**] get help LOL) 

My SIL is at the UofI right now with her CH bitch (another breed) because she woke up and the dog couldn't move. It has finally been diagnosed as an inner ear infection. She didn't take the dog to the vet and decided to listen to her breeder/use what she had on hand and it wasn't the right meds. So, essentially, she caused it by doing what so many people do on forums...getting/giving medical advice. I agree w/Jackie on this one. 

Another point is, there is a huge difference between giving out advice and making decisions on your own. The problem with giving out advice is (and this is SUCH a pet peeve of mine re: behavior/training) people give out advice and then what if it doesn't work? Are you qualified to back it up with the next step? or repair damage that was done because of what you have suggested, caused major problems. In the case of my SIL, now she has thousands of dollars of vet bills, created because her breeder told her how to treat the dog's ears... who is liable for that? Technically, that is giving out medical advice w/out a liscence. You have to be careful. (and I'm not saying the tylan doesn't work... I'm saying there is alot of baggage that goes with it, on many levels)

As far as the topicals not working, as I said, you have to be dillegent and use them daily/twice daily for months. I've had the Castebath's work on 4 different dogs. It takes time and dillegence. 

just my .02 worth.


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## Rocky's Mom (Apr 10, 2010)

Hi Tina...jumping in here to ask you when they stop teething and have all their adult teeth. Rocky is 8 months and I want to try the Tylan. I clean his eyes every day and he always has gunk and red stains forming. Thanks


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## Rocky's Mom (Apr 10, 2010)

Oh wow...didn't know this. I guess I live with the stains and hope he grows out of it. It's just so frustrating when you are trying so hard to keep him looking his best. But I don't want to do anything that could harm him in any way. I'm going to call my Vet and ask him, but I have a clue he's going to say that is the nature of the breed.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

The problem is, Tina, what works for one dog, may not for another AND you always think people use common sense..they don't. "Oh if a bit works, more will work better". Trust me, being in the vet "business" for as long as I have, you can't assume that people will get it. 
You need to trust in people and them doing the “right” thing. I’ve seen some crazy stuff done in the medical field. If the information isn’t clear or the person isn’t in a place to understand the information at the time, it all needs to be taken into consideration.


And as Jackie pointed out, dogs with other health problems should only be given advice re: abx, from a veterinarian who is treating the dog and knows the dog's health history. Who knows what meds will counteract with other medications or medical conditions of a dog. 
Not all veterinarians know their clients dogs. They come in once a year. Even our own doctor’s don’t know us, they see so many people.

If I had a vet that didn't listen to me, re: cosmetic problem, I'd find another vet. It is OUR job, at a clinic to LISTEN to our clients and if it is important to them, help them find a solution. PERIOD. That is how our clinic works. I wouldn't work for a vet that didn't think that way. (even the PITAs [Pain in the s**] get help LOL) 
That may be what the veterinarian clinic is supposed to do, but how many really do it? 
*PITA,* interesting word. Something you call people that are persistent and ask lots of questions you don’t have time for? Someone who you would rather not deal with. (Pain In The A**) Glad you have a name for them. Emergency rooms call such people “Frequent Fliers”. 

My SIL is at the UofI right now with her CH bitch (another breed) because she woke up and the dog couldn't move. It has finally been diagnosed as an inner ear infection. She didn't take the dog to the vet and decided to listen to her breeder/use what she had on hand and it wasn't the right meds. So, essentially, she caused it by doing what so many people do on forums...getting/giving medical advice. I agree w/Jackie on this one. 
If my dog couldn’t move, I would be at the vets office within the hour. This didn’t have anything to do with being on a “forum” it was between your SIL and her breeder. 

Another point is, there is a huge difference between giving out advice and making decisions on your own. 
People are making their own decisions when given advice. Especially people on this forum. They are very good at making decisions on what is the right thing to do for their fluffs than any other people I know.

The problem with giving out advice is (and this is SUCH a pet peeve of mine re: behavior/training) people give out advice.
It does seem to bother you and Jackie when someone besides you give information to someone on a health problem. Why is that?

and then what if it doesn't work? Are you qualified to back it up with the next step? or repair damage that was done because of what you have suggested, caused major problems. In the case of my SIL, now she has thousands of dollars of vet bills, created because her breeder told her how to treat the dog's ears... who is liable for that? Technically, that is giving out medical advice w/out a liscence. You have to be careful. (and I'm not saying the tylan doesn't work... I'm saying there is alot of baggage 
that goes with it, on many levels)
The basic information was given. Now they can go and talk to their vet about it. The answer the vet will give is that it is a cosmetic problem and will not give a prescription for the Tetracycline and will just be brushed off. As for your SIL, she made that decision on her own. It is between her and her breeder. But honestly this isn’t the same. Your SIL’s dog was really ill. My advise to her would be to see a vet as soon as possible. Like yesterday.

As far as the topicals not working, as I said, you have to be dillegent and use them daily/twice daily for months. I've had the Castebath's work on 4 different dogs. It takes time and diligence. 
You’re still not addressing the underlying problem behind the tear staining. You are dealing with the prophyrins staining the hair. Castlebath’s works the same as Eye Envy. Taking months for it to work is the same as waiting for the hair to grow out. The dog probably stopped tear staining on it’s own.
just my .02 worth.

I hear you and take your advice for what it is. 



What bother's me is when people go ahead and give medication to dogs that should not be given to them, because they have terrible reactions to them. Yet, they come on and say that Tetracycline for tear staining is a bad thing. To me it is wrong to take the advice of a veterinarian that insists that vaccines be given when they know the dog is going to react. They "pre-treat" the animal with prednisone which is a drug far *worse* than a tiny dose of Tetracycline could ever do (you want to talk about "baggage"). Unless they are allergic to it. And the chance of that dog contracting that illness that that vaccine is supposed to protect the dog from is small. To me it is wrong to put a dog through all that for a miniscule chance of contracting the real disease. The vaccine is doing more harm than good. They give it anyway.:mellow:

All I am saying is that Tetracycline works for tear staining. Do I use it? Yes. Do I weigh all the consequences of using it, yes. I've talked to many veterinarians on using it. I only do it one time with any dog. If I can't keep up with the staining after that then I live with it. Antibiotic's and any type of medication isn't something that I take lightly. All vets agree that Tetracycline and Tylan will clear up tear staining, but because it is a "cosmetic" issue, it is frowned upon by the veterinarian board to be used for it. They use peer pressure to keep them in line.
JMO
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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

Tina said:


> The problem with giving out advice is (and this is SUCH a pet peeve of mine re: behavior/training) people give out advice.
> It does seem to bother you and Jackie when someone besides you give information to someone on a health problem. Why is that?


I'm just going to say one thing because I said what I needed to in my earlier post, but I want to clarify something. I do NOT give out veterinary advice, ever. I can't speak for Jackie, but I can tell you, you will never see me give out any medical advice to anyone. I might and that is a huge, might...tell them it could be a, b, c or d, but I will always tell them to go to their vet. I will never tell them what they can do for it, on a forum or a list. We are not discussing behavior, as that is a whole nother issue and subject but so much harm can be done with the wrong advice, also...and so many people give it out so freely, not having a CLUE what they are talking about. You will see me give out behavior advice, but I am qualified to do so and I can back up anything I recommend...and it will NEVER EVER cause any harm to a dog. I go the opposite, I will always recommend a dog to be taken OUT of a harmful situation. nuff said on that.

But to answer your question, I would say, we are more qualified to give general information out, because we are veterinary technicians. I also want to clarify one other thing, we are NOT veterinarians. ONLY veterinarians should be giving out dosages and recommending drugs on their client's animals. Anyone else is not qualified and could be causing harm to someone else's animal by doing so.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Tina, 
We have many people on this board who make great, sound suggestions when somebody presents a health problem. These suggestions are typically to see your vet or a specialist and ask for some suggested non-invasive, harmless tests. Suggestions to ask about a medication is also appropriate. I don't have a problem doing this and I surely don't have a problem with anyone else doing this. 
I do have a problem with giving out medication doses and suggestion for administration of medications that are meant to be by PRESCRIPTION. To give a prescription medication requires a LICENSED VETERINARIAN to have seen the pet in person. There is a reason this is THE LAW. For the safety of all involved. 
If I were to recommend a person give a prescription drug and provide them with a dose over the internet, I most certainly am liable if that ends up being hazardous. If I could be fired for doing it at my job, then I sure as heck am not going to do it over the internet. This is part of the legal and medical ethics of veterinary medicine. Perhaps it is different in people. I can't speak for that. 
So yes, I think giving a dose and suggesting the use of what should be a prescription drug is inappropriate. And I have to say you have a LOT of faith in John Q. Public...would you like to know how many NSAID toxicity cases we see because of something someone read on the internet? Have you ever seen a dog exacerbate an existing problem or, though rare, develop bladder stones from Tetracycline? I have. 
So NO, I do not think your previous post is appropriate. NO, I don't think I'm better than others and only my advice should appear here. What I think is precisely what I've posted - I don't think it is wise to give out dosing instructions for prescription drugs. You _should be_ hard-pressed to find a veterinarian who would because it is not legal for them to do so.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Guidelines for Veterinary Prescription Drugs

Here are the veterinary prescription regulations from the AVMA.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

jmm said:


> I feel it is inappropriate to provide dosing instructions for an antibiotic meant to be prescription only. The state requires the veterinarian to have examined a patient to prescribe a medication. There is excellent reason behind this. Drugs like tetracycline can not only have unpleasant side effects, but dosing depends upon a dog's health status. A dog with a compromised liver of kidneys should not receive the same dose as a healthy dog...and tetracycline may not be the best selection of antibiotic for that dog at all. It can also have a negative interaction with some dietary supplements. We cannot know this over the internet.
> 
> As far as Tylan goes...if you have a young dog you may want to run their labwork before you start Tylan. While on tylan dogs can have elevated liver enzymes. Its always important that your vet be kept in the loop.


Good advice here from JMM. Here are some know side effects of Tetracycline:
*Tetracycline Side Effects - for the Professional*

*Tetracycline*

Gastrointestinal: anorexia, nausea, epigastric distress, vomiting, diarrhea, glossitis, black hairy tongue, dysphagia, enterocolitis, and inflammatory lesions (with monilial overgrowth) in the anogenital region.
Rare instances of esophagitis and esophageal ulceration have been reported in patients receiving particularly the capsule and also the tablet forms of Tetracyclines.
Most of the patients were reported to have taken medication immediately before going to bed.
Teeth: permanent discoloration of teeth may be caused during tooth development. Enamel hypoplasia has also been reported.
Skin: maculopapular and erythematous rashes. *Exfoliative dermatitis* has been reported but is uncommon. Onycholysis and discoloration of the nails have been reported rarely. Photosensitivity is discussed in WARNINGS.
*Renal toxicity: rise in BUN has been reported and is apparently dose related.*
*Liver: hepatotoxicity and liver failure have been observed in patients receiving large doses of Tetracycline and in Tetracycline-treated patients with renal impairment.*
Hypersensitivity reactions: urticaria, angioneurotic edema, *anaphylaxis*, anaphylactoid purpura, pericarditis, exacerbation of systemic lupus erythematosus, and serum sickness-like reactions, as fever, rash, and arthralgia.
*Blood: hemolytic anemia, thrombocytopenia, thrombocytopenic purpura, neutropenia and eosinophilia have been reported.*
Other: bulging fontanels in infants and intracranial pressure in adults.
When given over prolonged periods, Tetracyclines have been reported to produce brown-black microscopic discoloration of thyroid glands. No abnormalities of thyroid function studies are known to occur.

*Lets leave the perscribing and dosing of antibiotics to the licensed professionals.*


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

As in the case of most every med on the market, from OTC antacids to prescriptions, the _possible side effects_ are almost always worse than the condition they're prescribed to treat ((sigh)).


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

almitra said:


> As in the case of most every med on the market, from OTC antacids to prescriptions, the _possible side effects_ are almost always worse than the condition they're prescribed to treat ((sigh)).


But to be clear...we are not talking about OTC drugs. This is a perscribed drug, and should be treated as such. Antibiotics of any type carry risks that most of the general public do not understrand (no offense intended) including contributing to the life threatening resistant organism problems that humans and animals are experiencing now.


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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

pammy4501 said:


> But to be clear...we are not talking about OTC drugs. This is a perscribed drug, and should be treated as such. Antibiotics of any type carry risks that most of the general public do not understrand (no offense intended) including contributing to the life threatening resistant organism problems that humans and animals are experiencing now.


And much more, as I pointed out earlier. They can trash an immune system and I know this on many different levels, both my own and my dogs.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

pammy4501 said:


> But to be clear...we are not talking about OTC drugs. This is a perscribed drug, and should be treated as such. Antibiotics of any type carry risks that most of the general public do not understrand (no offense intended) including contributing to the life threatening resistant organism problems that humans and animals are experiencing now.


You may be talking about prescribed drugs, but for the most part in this thread I (we) are refering to OTC Tetracycline. Yes, it does come in the form of an Over The Counter medication. It can be purchased in Farm Stores and Veterianarian warehouses, like Revival. Often some medications can be both. It can be available by prescription and it can be purchased OTC. Some medications are given another name. Terramycin is a form of 
Tetracycline available in powder form. http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/animaldrugsatfda/details.cfm?dn=008-622 It is available OTC as you can see on the FDA form. 

With the link for the veterinarian site. The information on the site seems to be vague. Especially when digging further. 

Reading the vaccine protocols was really interesting. Vaccination Resources

As with any medication that we take or we give to our maltese they should be considered very carefully. I do think that "the general public" should be given more credit for understanding medical information. We are able to research more easily now than ever before. We have to take our own health into our own hands to get the care we need.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

And none of those OTC products are labeled for use with dogs. Certainly in veterinary medicine we use off-label medications...but only under the supervision of a licensed veterinarian. 

The vaccine piece is from 5 years ago...and I think it does a good job of emphasizing every pet is different and the vaccine protocol should reflect that.


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