# Sticky  Warning signs of a BYB



## maddysmom

Recently I have noticed a lot of new SM members coming here looking for guidance on finding Maltese breeders.
From my experience I would like to share my thoughts on BYB and what I would look for as a warning sign.

BYB are motivated by profit. They appear to be nice people who treat their dogs as family pets and appear to have the dogs at their best interest. They are extremely personable and are very convincing with their answers.

That said~ continuously breeding these Maltese year after year, litter after litter for profit purely jeopardizes the health of the animal as my Lacie is the living proof of what I am saying.
Even those few BYB who do the occasional litter per year, so they do not appear to be a puppymill , DO NOT have the knowledge on how to breed responsibly.
Just because they are bred in a nice warm cozy home does not mean they are not neglected or cared for like they should be.

Just a few things to come to mind when looking for your next fluff and those warning signs of a BYB.

~not wanting to remove the parent knowingly that they have a genetic defect even after being warned by us.

~The seller has several types of purebreds or breeds designer breeds.

~will not show each parent pedigrees or even the premises they live on.

~has champion lines but can not produce the papers providing any of this information.

~not akc reg because the so called fees are too high.

~used to show but because of politics, they have decided not to do so anymore.

~advertising teacups, or very small parents to produce very small dogs.

~high pressure tactics. Not having more pups if you don't take the one they offer you.

~having lots of females always pregnant and males running around.
In my experience, there were two males gated off in the galley kitchen with a female in hope one of them would get her pregnant.

~warranty is void if you do not feed their food, sleep with puppy for several weeks for bonding, ect.

Last....changing the business name after having complaints or because the word has gotten out that they are producing unhealthy dogs.
Please do not be fooled by a breeder who tells you to check reviews about them on line...they are easily deleted so the public won't ever see them.

I hope that this can be of help to anyone who is looking to add a fluff in the future so that they don't make the same mistake as I did. To watch my girl suffer every day is truly heartbreaking.


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## mdbflorida

:goodpost:


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## Matilda's mommy

:aktion033::goodpost::ThankYou:


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## kd1212

Love you...thinking of you and Lacie:wub:


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## maggieh

:goodpost: thank you for taking the time to post this!


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## pammy4501

This is a good start. But BYB's are actually pretty easy to spot. The tough ones are the ones that are disguised as "reputable" or "show" breeders....but they aren't. Some unfortunately disguise themselves as show breeders by obtaining "show dogs" from less than reputable breeders and then proceed to breed them and call themselves "show breeders." When someone purchases a dogs from a reputable breeder (probably signing a neuter and spay agreement)and then turns around and breeds them- and sells them is worse than a back yard breeder. It's hard to tell at first pass who the imposters are. But if you really do your homework, you can weed them out.

I'm actually happy to see this posted here. I was beginning to feel like SM was becoming a site that was OK with the BYB's.


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## maggieh

pammy4501 said:


> This is a good start. But BYB's are actually pretty easy to spot. The tough ones are the ones that are disguised as "reputable" or "show" breeders....but they aren't. Some unfortunately disguise themselves as show breeders by obtaining "show dogs" from less than reputable breeders and then proceed to breed them and call themselves "show breeders." When someone purchases a dogs from a reputable breeder (probably signing a neuter and spay agreement)and then turns around and breeds them- and sells them is worse than a back yard breeder. It's hard to tell at first pass who the imposters are. But if you really do your homework, you can weed them out.
> 
> I'm actually happy to see this posted here. I was beginning to feel like SM was becoming a site that was OK with the BYB's.


:goodpost: Pam, I'm glad you said that. It's very frustrating trying to do the right thing by our fabulous breed and wonderful rescues and being overrun by bybs, poos and doodles! :w00t:


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## Alexa

Great post!!! :ThankYou:


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## LOVE_BABY

I agree --:goodpost:


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## pammy4501

maggieh said:


> :goodpost: Pam, I'm glad you said that. It's very frustrating trying to do the right thing by our fabulous breed and wonderful rescues and being overrun by bybs, poos and doodles! :w00t:


We are always on the same page Maggie!!


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## Chardy

JO JO I am so proud of you for writing this!!!! Great job!!! 

I agree with Pam, Maggie and everyone that I too was worried that SM no longer was really taking an interest in BYB and somehow do not pay attention to what happened to McCartney, Lacie, and many other maltese dogs that have bad breeding behind them. Although, the breeder I got McC from- criteria did not fall exactly into all those categories, I can never recommend them again because they continue to breed McC mom dad and sister. Their belief is she did not have GME/NME .... so irritating-- that it makes me shake. 

Thanks for posting..


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## maddysmom

Chardy said:


> JO JO I am so proud of you for writing this!!!! Great job!!!
> 
> I agree with Pam, Maggie and everyone that I too was worried that SM no longer was really taking an interest in BYB and somehow do not pay attention to what happened to McCartney, Lacie, and many other maltese dogs that have bad breeding behind them. Although, the breeder I got McC from- criteria did not fall exactly into all those categories, I can never recommend them again because they continue to breed McC mom dad and sister. Their belief is she did not have GME/NME .... so irritating-- that it makes me shake.
> 
> Thanks for posting..


Carol, what happened to McC is still very heartbreaking to me. To watch her suffer because of careless BYB and greed is so upsetting to me.
Watching everything you went through, watching her suffer and living with Lacie's day to day sufferings is what inspired me to write this. 
Hopefully those who read it will be much more aware and will walk away from those who are BYB.


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## Snowbody

:ThankYou::goodpost:


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## maddysmom

pammy4501 said:


> This is a good start. But BYB's are actually pretty easy to spot. The tough ones are the ones that are disguised as "reputable" or "show" breeders....but they aren't. Some unfortunately disguise themselves as show breeders by obtaining "show dogs" from less than reputable breeders and then proceed to breed them and call themselves "show breeders." When someone purchases a dogs from a reputable breeder (probably signing a neuter and spay agreement)and then turns around and breeds them- and sells them is worse than a back yard breeder. It's hard to tell at first pass who the imposters are. But if you really do your homework, you can weed them out.
> 
> I'm actually happy to see this posted here. I was beginning to feel like SM was becoming a site that was OK with the BYB's.


I agree that some BYB are easy to spot, however to the real newcomer who doesn't really understand about BYB and the sale tactics they use to make that sale~these warnings are not so obvious or simple to see through. BYB IMHO are very very good at manipulating to make a sale. The most important thing to do is to ask questions and if it doesn't feel right and they avoid even the simplest question...walk or shall I say run fast!


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## Ruffzig

Wow. Do BYB do CKC registered as well ? My breeder she said she will guarantee pups health for an year. Now I am skeptical If she was true breeder or BYB.


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## maggieh

Ruffzig said:


> Wow. Do BYB do CKC registered as well ? My breeder she said she will guarantee pups health for an year. Now I am skeptical If she was true breeder or BYB.


Unless CKC means Canadian Kennel Club, yes, CKC means BYB or puppy mill. It's a pet registry created for people who can't meet the pure breed requirements.

Keep in mind, though, that BYB also use AKC registration if they have pure bred dogs.


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## maddysmom

maggieh said:


> Unless CKC means Canadian Kennel Club, yes, CKC means BYB or puppy mill. It's a pet registry created for people who can't meet the pure breed requirements.
> 
> Keep in mind, though, that BYB also use AKC registration if they have pure bred dogs.


This is very true. I know that when I saved Lacie from that horrible BYB who claimed to be a top show breeder in Beverly, Mass, she was CKC registered, so she says. Now she tells her potential buyers, she is AKC. I wish I knew then what I know now.

BYB also stalk SM and manipulate what is said here. They use places like their Facebook page to look like the hero and tell their potential buyers that SM isn't fact based. When in actuality, they are breeding for profit, that almighty dollar.
I can not say it enough, BYB DO NOT HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE ON HOW TO BREED RESPONSIBLY.
All anyone has to do is read my Lacie's story. It will certainly make you reconsider buying from a BYB, CKC, even an BYB who tells you they are AKC.


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## Smtf773

Seems like allot of new Maltese pups lately on SM have been coming from BYBs. I cringe every time I read a new post with a puppy posted that's obviously way to young. I just keep thinking that keeps paying them to keep breeding on. Maltese are a very delicate breed. Please if you are on SM with us commit with us to better the breed. Most of us are here because we all have a story to tell and love our Maltese just as human kids.


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## maddysmom

Smtf773 said:


> Seems like allot of new Maltese pups lately on SM have been coming from BYBs. I cringe every time I read a new post with a puppy posted that's obviously way to young. I just keep thinking that keeps paying them to keep breeding on. Maltese are a very delicate breed. Please if you are on SM with us commit with us to better the breed. Most of us are here because we all have a story to tell and love our Maltese just as human kids.


I've noticed the same, Stacey. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and think they adopted from a BYB BEFORE they found SM, however, I don't think that's the case.

Someone on FB sent me this yesterday. This is my Lacie's breeders, Royal House of Maltese's FB page, for those who don't know, sold me a very, very sick dog wth genetic problems. I REALLY, REALLY hope that the person who asked the question on SM made the right choice in the end and adopted from a reputable breeder, not a BYB.


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## maggieh

Smtf773 said:


> Seems like allot of new Maltese pups lately on SM have been coming from BYBs. I cringe every time I read a new post with a puppy posted that's obviously way to young. I just keep thinking that keeps paying them to keep breeding on. Maltese are a very delicate breed. Please if you are on SM with us commit with us to better the breed. Most of us are here because we all have a story to tell and love our Maltese just as human kids.


Totally agree with you. It's disappointing to see so many from BYB and it's even more disappointing that many here seem to think it's ok. Keeping the breed strong and improving it means supporting breeders who prove their lines by showing and who consider genetics when breeding their show dogs. They don't breed dogs who aren't exceptional examples of the breed.


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## Cloe baby

Hi all,

I live in Florida and really want to get a Maltese again. But after reading all of this, I do not know where to start. I know that there are many good breeders here, but, where do I start????  Thank you all so much................


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## The A Team

Being on SM in regards to finding a good puppy is like a merry-go-round. It's always been so hard to actually help people. A few years ago, I just left SM - a lot of the reason was it got so hard to be politically correct....and the fun was becoming less and less.

It got to the point that people were afraid (or weren't allowed) to recommend specific breeders. We would say "go check the AKC list of recommended breeders" Now this is also tricky because maybe not ALL of the AKC breeders are good. ....then we would chastise those who made a mistake. 

A lot of long time members have left SM since then. And I'm not sure what has been transpiring since then as I usually only come back to check in with a few old friends...(Paula :innocent 

So, where do we go from here? There never was a good answer. Will there ever be? I did like that thread that was started one time about "Where did you get your maltese?" Everyone posted pictures of their dogs and gave the name of their breeder. ....like....hint hint hint. lol. 

Not trying to start any trouble, just trying to express how I feel personally. Feel free to disregard me...as I don't play by the rules anymore. ....I even own two dogs imported from Korea. :blush: :innocent: ...the horrors....!!!!!:w00t:


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## maddysmom

Cloe baby said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I live in Florida and really want to get a Maltese again. But after reading all of this, I do not know where to start. I know that there are many good breeders here, but, where do I start????  Thank you all so much................


I tell ya...since I wrote that thread, I have realized that AKC means nothing anymore. Lacie(my very sick dog) breeder is AKC registered now, so that in itself means nothing to me anymore.

This is how I found my next breeder. I started researching other top show breeders and which breeder they used to bring into their lines. I figured if that breeder was good for them...it was good for me. I ended up going out of the country without any regrets. My two dogs are super healthy, with the exception of Suki getting an auto immune disease that is not genetic~the medical experts say environmental or the rabies shot brought it on. My girls bile acid tests that my internist did came back in the negatives both pre and post. I got full body X-rays and all their blood work.

My point...reputable breeders have nothing to hide. The BYB/hobby breeders have everything to hide. If I look back on when I adopted Lacie from Royal House of Maltese...she lied constantly and her stories changed all the time. She was never, ever straight up with me or anyone else I know that adopted or attempted to adopt from her.

All I can say is you can't be careful enough. If there are dog shows nearby...go and meet those breeders. I asked a million questions, I emailed other breeders about the breeder I was thinking about adopting from, as well as people that I heard had previously adopted one.
It was definitely a full-time job but well worth the time. Hope this helps and please don't stop asking...it's a small world...everyone knows everyone so your bound to find your answers.


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## revakb2

This time of year there lots of dog shows in Florida. There are 10 days of shows in Brooksville in Jan. and then there are a series of shows in Lakeland. Check infodog.com for show information. That's the place to see dogs and meet their breeders. You can see and meet some of the best Maltese breeders in the Florida area at these shows.


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## Cloe baby

Hi Reva,

Thank you so much for the info. I did take a look at inodog and found lots of shows for 2017. The AMA are having a show in April, in Ashville, NC. And there are more show in WPB and in Miami. I really want to go the Ashville, NC because it's AMA showing. I love SM. There is so much info here!!!! :chili:

Regards,

Maggie


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## Happinesstogo

Does anyone know anything about the American Kennel Club in NYC? Say they get their puppies from AKC breeders. 

Lainie


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## maggieh

Happinesstogo said:


> Does anyone know anything about the American Kennel Club in NYC? Say they get their puppies from AKC breeders.
> 
> Lainie


Anyone including unscrupulous breeders can register thru AKC if they can prove pure breed dogs. AKC doesn't necessarily mean you have a responsible breeder.


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## Gigi's Dogmom

I like to go to dog shows and chat with the breeders I meet there. You can get lots of information and sometimes you can find out the breeders the others think are disreputable. Look for someone who does genetic testing on their dogs before they breed them. And be willing to wait. Good quality dogs from responsible breeders are usually spoken for before they are even born. They don't have many litters and carefully plan them. It's worth it to get on a waiting list and wait. And to pay more upfront rather than pay later in vet bills and watching your dog suffer.


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## murphysplace200

Hi all. I asked a particular breeder some questions. She does provide health certificate for puppy. She even gave me vets name and telephone number with address. She offers 1 year guaranty against genetic conditions. She said no to references and she said no due to the fact she felt customers would be uncomfortable giving out tell numbers and emails. It was after I told her her breeders had no problem with this did she provide emails and telephone numbers. They are akc registed. Parents have health certificate. Hover she did not have parents tested for genetic problems. Do all reputable breeders have genetic testing done? She does breed Maltese,Yorkie and another breed. Went on her personal Facebook and seems like she does have a loving family and friends. Should I consider? The mom is 6lbs and dad is 4. Will that produce a puppy that will be between 5-6
lbs? One thing that did raise a flag is that she also is breeding a 5 lb mom with a 4 lb dad and said they will be small. Won't that produce puppies that will be under 4 lbs which is unhealthy? Or am I wrong? Any input, especially any breeders, would be healpful. Sorry for long post.


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## maggieh

murphysplace200 said:


> Hi all. I asked a particular breeder some questions. She does provide health certificate for puppy. She even gave me vets name and telephone number with address. She offers 1 year guaranty against genetic conditions. She said no to references and she said no due to the fact she felt customers would be uncomfortable giving out tell numbers and emails. It was after I told her her breeders had no problem with this did she provide emails and telephone numbers. They are akc registed. Parents have health certificate. Hover she did not have parents tested for genetic problems. Do all reputable breeders have genetic testing done? She does breed Maltese,Yorkie and another breed. Went on her personal Facebook and seems like she does have a loving family and friends. Should I consider? The mom is 6lbs and dad is 4. Will that produce a puppy that will be between 5-6
> lbs? One thing that did raise a flag is that she also is breeding a 5 lb mom with a 4 lb dad and said they will be small. Won't that produce puppies that will be under 4 lbs which is unhealthy? Or am I wrong? Any input, especially any breeders, would be healpful. Sorry for long post.


Where does she show her dogs?


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## zooeysmom

I would cross her right off the list. Any reputable breeder will be happy to give you references!


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## summergirl1973

Well considering I bought Bella from a pet store and we lost her one year ago this week, I guess we all know where I stand on BYB. She was 5 and half year old - just a baby! Now with that said I am going to clearly state that some of the folks on the AMA are also BYB. No I am not going to name call .... but it is true. The AKC is a joke. If you care about making a difference then educate yourself and be a part of the solution. Watch, ask questions and you will see it for yourself.


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## teacherterry

I learned the hard way about puppymills by buying my first Malt from a pet store. 2 weeks later she was having heart surgery that cost 4k -13 years ago. AFter that I ended up rescuing puppymill breeders and other old Malts that no one wanted. I decided about 4 months ago to get a puppy and a few people on here recommended a great show breeder. She has references, I was welcome to come to her house, etc. She has decided to quit showing so also has decided to quit breeding. I am thrilled with the puppy we now have.


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## Aviannah's Mom

:goodpost: It was scary when I began my search. I did a lot of research (how I found this site) and a lot of praying. I am beyond happy with my baby girl and very glad that I took the extra time!


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