# coxofemoral degenerative joint disease?



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi again ladies:

Here I am asking again for your help, I'm having problems with one of my pups. She's almost 8 months, and last sunday morning I've noticed her walking a little bit "strange", more "stiff" to say something. At 9:00 PM she wasn't using her right back leg for some specific movements. I took her to the vet monday morning and the dr. prescribed Carprofen (sp?) 'cause she tought it might be a muscle contracture. Since she didn't improved with the medication (2 days after that), the vet ordered an x-ray, which I took today during the morning (couldn't find an appointment earlier)... aaaannddd bad news: she was diagnosed with a "coxofemoral degenerative joint disease" :smcry::smcry::smcry: (I have no idea how to translate it properly in english, I've used google translator).
The vet precribed Gerioox (Omega3, D-glucosamin, Chondroitin sulfate, Copper glicinate, Zinc gluconate, sodium selenite, vitamin E) and will contact an specilist to evaluate a possible surgery, kinesiology or whatever the best treatment will be for her.
I'm devastated... I can't bare to see her in pain. She still plays with her sys, mom and dad, but it's obvious she's not like she was a week before, just A week before, she was OK last saturday :smcry: . How could I've missed this?... I should have noticed earlier, but she didn't had any signs, she walked and run properly, everything seemed ok with her.

I'm looking for some natural meds that might help her while the the vet talks with the specialist, or anything that might be good for her... any advices?... Any of your dogs have something similar to this? (I really hope not).

THANKS!


----------



## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Gabby---I am SO sorry for your baby. I am not exactly familiar with this disease. But my 2 yr old just went through a major knee and joint repair (LP) but he had the advanced surgery that included bone cutting and realignment (I don't know how to describe it any other way). I can tell you he limped since he was 9 mo and I didn't have him operated on till he was 2 yrs old. Partly bec it was not easy to diagnos it earlier and fear on my part. Your baby is young so please don't beat yourself up. You sound like a great mom. Already seeing a specialist and treating the pain. Pat yourself on the back. Your doing all you can now. You want to get her diagnosed properly and find a SMALL DOG ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON is my best advice. Many surgeons do work on bigger dogs so try and locate one that has much experience with small bones is my advice. I was told after My Sammie's surgery that his femur bone is affected as well. As the entire leg was affected from his improper gait from birth. There is no way you could have known anything was wrong. I had a vet tell me his leg was fine until I found a good ortho that confirmed why he limped. They can do so much now. And they heal so fast. It's really AMAZING. I think it's harder on us humans because our babies can't tell us what's going on. Hang in there, your on the right track early. (Unfortunately) there ARE others of us here that have been there and have much knowledge on orthopedic surgeries. Keep us posted. And sending positive vibes for your precious baby to be healed soon. 
Hugs--


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I think the proper term here in the US is hip displasia. 

Hip Dysplasia in Dogs | What is Hip Dysplasia? | petMD

This is a puppy you produced, right? It is a genetic condition so all the puppies need to be checked and both parents need to be spayed and neutered asap.

I know this was an accidental pregnancy, but you need to take responsibility for this puppy and any of her siblings who may have the same condition. 

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/52-maltese-health-behavior/116291-giving-birth-sos.html


----------



## SammieMom (Nov 13, 2010)

Thank you Marj. I wasn't sure if it was top or bottom of the femur involved. Meaning Affecting knee or hip. Good point about sibs and parents.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

@Ladysmom: Yup, these are my fur grandkids. Both parents are already spayed and neutured. There were 4 pups, one born dead, 2 females (living with me) and a male (living with my cousin). O*f course I'm taking responsability for this pup, doens't sound like am I?????* :blink: , I've take her to the vet, bought her medicines, done everything the vets have told me until now... why do you say something so horrible like that???? :blink:
My cousin already now the diagnosis of my pup, I'm going to pay for all the exams of the little male to check everything is ok with him (and the others), if he is affected too (Which I hope isn't the case), I already told him I'm willing (and WANT) to take the pup back!. You should ask before accusing people of something you don't know. 

Just to remember to everybody, before hearing more accusations: yes, it was an accidental pregnancy. The parents mated one week before the scheduled neuture, and the heat of the female "arrived" (sorry can't think in a proper word) 3 MONTHS BEFORE!!!!. I wasn't at home, I only left ONE afternoon for a couple of hours, and my mom fall asleep with the two of them inspite I told her NOT to sleep with them... So to make that point clear: I DIDN'T WANTED TO HAVE PUPS!!. It was NEVER my intention, and to make another point clear: I KEPT ALL the females 'cause I didn't wanted to make "bussiness" with them and everybody who wanted one (yes, I was willing to give them "for free" to a responsible person) always talked 'bout breeding them, didn't found ONE single person willing to spay... So please don't say to me I'm not responsible. I've quitted a lot of things on my life just to take care of them, I've quitted my ballet lessons, gymnastics training, almost my entire social life just to get home early to be with them, to clean them, groom them, play with them, etc etc... Oh, and yes: I'm contacting the two breeders from whom I purchased my two malts, just to let them know to be careful with these lines.

@SammieMom: THANK YOU for your kind words... not much happening today. It's sunday and most vets don't work. I'm going to contact the specialist tomorrow morning. I've found a kinesiologist who specializes in this kind of disease to check my baby at home. She's not answering her phone today, so I wrote her an email and hope I can shedule an apointment by phone tomorrow :thumbsup: Thank you. I'll let you know how everything is going on :thumbsup:


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Gabby, I live in another culture outside the US and sometimes I realize languages can divide us rather than bring us understanding ---may I say that this might be one of those times? I don't think Marj meant ill harm by what she was communicating, but I can see why you felt she did. I think it was more to encourage you to take steps to protect the other malts that might be affected by this genetic situation. Not everyone knows to have the other pups checked.
It does sound like you are doing an excellent job and you are to be commended for that. :aktion033::aktion033: Sometimes it is difficult to know what to do. If it is hip dysplasia then time is of the essence and it needs to be done immediately. If it is an issue w/the knee joints it is possible to wait a bit until you know more clearly your options. I personally had a leg/knee issue w/Kitzel & it took a year and a half to properly diagnose him w/lots of different opinions by specialists. 
So, just know that we all want you to get the help you need and deserve for your babies. I know you love them so much. Please let us know what the specialist says. I will ask God to give you wisdom.:thumbsup::wub:


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

That is probably what we call Legge-Calves Perthes disease where the ball of the hips joint because moth-eaten and painful. If that is the case, surgery is the solution. Good luck.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

@Edelweiss: Well, yes it might be a "language barrier" thing... so I apologyze... but in spanish Ladysmom's post sounds veeeeeery bad. But you're right, so I apologyze again. Thanks for your prayers, I'll need them 

@JMM: Yup, found a specialist today. I spammed the poor guy inbox with emails today :blush: , I've sent the rx and he told me what you said: Legge-Calves Perthes. He needs to be sure, 'cause he tought the rx wasn't taken properly, so he's seeing her tomorrow at 10:00 AM. I think I can trust this guy, he has a very good resume, I was impresed by that. He's teaching a class in the university tomorrow, so I'm seeing him in between clases, it's in the Veterinary Faculty, Surgery section (?) so he can do a proper check to her. Hope he can help us.

Will update you guys tomorrow... THANKS FOR YOUR PRAYERS!!!


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Gabby, I have been thinking about you and am happy to hear you got an appt. so quickly---If it is LCPD then the surgeon won't waste any time doing surgery & you will have to keep her quiet & still for some months---I went through that w/Kitzel as did Kandis w/Sammie. It isn't going to be easy and you will need support. Jackie (Socalyte) had a dog w/LCPD and she was an immense encouragement to me when Kitzi had his surgery. We are here for you so do let us know how you are doing. You will also need to do physical therapy later though so we have time to talk about that.
Sending you a big hug and many prayers up for your baby.

edit: you may want to get a stroller (dog) if you don't have one as it saved my life w/Kitzel. I was able to keep him near me at all times. You will also need a soft collar so she doesn't pull at the wounds (stitches). Be prepared for how ugly it will be when they shave all her hair on the back side & you see the stitches. It will grow back quickly & you won't see the scars. You will need to be brave for her sake.


----------



## socalyte (Nov 15, 2010)

My little Cozette also had Legg-Calves-Perthes and had surgery when she was nine months old. She had the same funny walk you said your puppy had, which is also why I went to the vet's. It's wonderful that you sought out veterinary care for your puppy so quickly. I'd be glad to give you any information and advice you need-- feel free to send me a private message or ask any questions here.

Don't feel bad because you think you didn't notice the funny walk right away-- sometimes the symptoms come on quite suddenly even though the amount of degeneration is severe. Like you, by the time I took Cozette to the vet, her hip was very bad. Also, little dogs may accommodate for joint problems fairly easily due to their size, so often we don't see obvious issues until they have progressed pretty far.


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Gabby, you and your little girl are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope things go well with the visit to the specialist today. Please keep us posted.


----------



## cynthia's (Dec 30, 2011)

Thinking of you and your little one and wishing you both the very best!!


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks everybody... We're leaving in 30 min to see the vet.

Well, she didn't walked strange or funny before past sunday (15th), I'm quite sure about that. I've always noticed her bones are different than my other malts, in fact I've mentioned to her vet that, and she told me she's hypermobile :blink: . Her little butt is different (I say to her she has a bunny butt), and I don't know how to explain it, but since the first time I hold her I could tell she had something different... since I tend to overreact (especially when it's 'bout my dogs) nobody listened to me.... I should have checked her before, but the vet didn't thought it was necessary.

So, another question: the head of the femur of your dogs was removed and then the vet replaced it with a prothesis?, or just removed the head?. I've been reading a lot of papers, and there's those two options, unfortunately I'm guessing here I won't be able to find a prothesis so little for her.... hope not....

Well, time to go... I'll let you know how everything went with the vet... pray for her!!

THANKSS!!!


----------



## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

Good luck at the vet today. I hope they your little pup has a good prognosis.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

really quick update (gotta go back to work) *IS NOT PERTHES!!!* :chili::chili: She still need the surgery, but it's not genetic yaaaayyy!!!:chili:
Apparently she "broke" (sorry I'm in a hurry, can think properly in english) the ligament between the femur and the hip (he thinks 2 months ago, didn't notice anything :smilie_tischkante: ), so she still needs the surgery, the same one that is performed for LCP, but I'm kind of relief 'cause the other ones are not affected (told him I still want to chek them up just in case, and he will, after Brisa's surgery)... He'll send me the detailed report in a while and we will schedule the surgery.

yaaayyy!!!:chili:
Will tell you what he told me later tonight, 'cause I have to go back to work... 

*THANKS!!*


----------



## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Sounds like the surgery will be a bit less 'intense' than originally thought?! My Missy had to have surgery on both ACLs and she recouped beatifully and faster than I had anticipated! Hope the same holds for your baby!


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Glad to hear it isn't genetic and that wonderful of you to want to double check the others. I hope this surgery is less intense and that the recovery will be smoother. I will look out for more detailed post this evening. Thanks for keeping us update.


----------



## socalyte (Nov 15, 2010)

To answer your question about the surgery, Cozette did not have a prosthesis inserted (although believe it or not they are available- at least in the States!) The femoral head is removed and fibrous scar tissue forms, making a false joint. 

Since her surgery, Cozette's mobility is just great and she can run and play with her sister, Pippa, without any apparent restrictions.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi again 

@Socalyte: Yeah, the Dr said there're prosthesis here too, but he thinks she won't need it... good. How many time was your baby in pain after the surgery? I'm worried 'bout that, hope is not too many time.

Her blood test will be done friday morning & the surgery probably monday morning. I wanted before but the dr and the anesthesiologist have their schedules full, so it's imposible to perform it earlier :mellow: I trust them, they both have excelent resumes and a lot of experience, I could probably find someone to perform it before monday but I wouldn't be confident in another dr (and I've searched and searched like crazy).

She seems a little bit better. Now she's restricted to a sector of the house with just her mom, she's (mom) SUPER quiet so they both sleep mostly the entire day. Dad and sis are like tornadoes, Brisa was runing from here to there a lot while she was with them, so now the family is apart... just for a while.

I'm a little more easy 'cause I know she will be ok, but in the other hand I start to worry again when I think 'bout the surgery and the pain after that. She's a trooper and I'm sure she can cope with everything, but I'm not :brownbag: I can't stand to see her in pain.

Here some pics of my baby.
The first one it's me and her (Brisa) doing a "Titanic", this pic is old but I think is funny.
Second one: My baby's sweet little face.
Third one: Me (I look horrible on this pic, but don't care) and my little fur family. Brisa is the first one from the right.I'm holding Thor (little male living with my cousin) and Khadijah is below. In my legs is Sagirah ("the owner of my heart") and to the left Brito (teen dad :HistericalSmiley LOVE THEM ALL!

Thanks again... will let you know how everything goes on with the blood tests on friday.

Hugs!


----------



## Furbabies mom (Jul 25, 2011)

So happy it's not what was suspected. Praying that all goes well with the surgery.


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks for the update. Hope everything goes well! I love the pics of everyone!! Especially the family portrait!! Keep us posted on everything.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

:smilie_tischkante::smilie_tischkante:

bad news: problems with her blood test... hepatyc enzymes are altered :smilie_tischkante::smilie_tischkante: and it wasn't enought sample to repeat the test, will have to do them again tomorrow.... please pray it was a mistake in the lab!!

thanks


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Gabby, can you give us an exact reading on the enzymes. Maltese can have slightly altered hepatic enzymes without it being a serious problem. Has she been on ANY medications at all or had anesthesia recently? Also, what does she eat, and what is the protein content of her food?
Try to stay calm and we will be eager to find out w/you what is going on. Hang in there pal.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Gabby said:


> :smilie_tischkante::smilie_tischkante:
> 
> bad news: problems with her blood test... hepatyc enzymes are altered :smilie_tischkante::smilie_tischkante: and it wasn't enought sample to repeat the test, will have to do them again tomorrow.... please pray it was a mistake in the lab!!
> 
> thanks


She needs a bile acids test. They are done routinely here in the US on Maltese, Yorkies and other breeds prone to liver disease. Do they do them in your country?


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

@Sandi:
Her readings:
GOT-AST (transaminasa oxaloacetica) 244 U/L (which is very very high, according to the report the normal value is between 23 - 66 U/L)
GPT-ALT (transaminasa pirúvica) wasn't enough sample to do this test :smilie_tischkante:
FA (fosfatasa alcalina) 423 U/L (normal between 20 - 156 U/L)
Everything else was normal.

She and the entire fluf family were sick over month ago (diarrea, vomits, Dad and sis were very sick, Mom and Brisa not so much), the vet tought at first it could be Giardia (it wasn't, did tests to all 4 of them 3 times), then after a while we realized it was the kibble, I feed them Royal Canin Mini Junior & Mini Adult (Junior is from Argentina & Adult from France), long story short: it was the Mini Junior from Argentina that made them sick, so now I'm only feeding them Mini Adult (from France, don't buy the argentinian anymore). Sadly for us I've realized Royal Canin is not a very good food, but this is the best I can find over here. They eat also once per day homecooked meal (usually chicken, a little bit of rice and pumpkin, and sometimes zuchinni, or carrots or any other vegetable avaliable). 

She (Brisa) hasn't been sick, on monday 16th I took her to the vet 'cause her leg, the vet prescribed her carprofeno during 4 days (5mg /day), since she wasn't getting any better she ordered an x-ray on thursday 19th, which I took on sunday 21th. That day we realized her real problem with her leg and the vet prescribed Gerioox (every 1.8 gr: 0.2 ml omega 3, 0.14g D-glucosamina, 0.15g condroitin sulfato, 0.003g glicinato de cobre, 0.02 gluconato de zinc, 0.005 mg selenito de sodio, 1.8 g excipientes) which she's been taken 1/4pill every 12 hrs. I haven't given her Gerioox today, just in case 'cause we will do again the blood test tomorrow.

No anesthesia at all, in fact they will use "gas" to sleep her (sorry forgot the name in english of this type of anesthesia)

Here you can find a review of the kibble: Dog Food Reviews - Royal Canin Mini Adult 27 - Powered by ReviewPost
(bad I know, can't believe this is the best we have over here)

:smilie_tischkante: I really don't know what's going on... hope it's nothing wrong with her liver and the lab just made a mistake. Will ask to the vet to take at least two samples: one for her lab and the other one I will take with me to another lab, just to be 100% sure.

I'm freaking out, all I want is for her not to be in pain, it's breaking my heart :smcry: to be honest she's hanging in there very well, but I don't want to wait any longer for her surgery...

@Ladysmom: I will ask to the vet tomorrow, I'm not quite sure its done over here. I've ask to one of the first vets Sagirah (the "mom") had when she was a pup for this test (read it over here  ) and he looked at me like I was crazy . But thanks for reminding me, will ask tomorrow 

Hope tomorrow afternoon I'll have good news... pray for my little Brisa please!!, I call her "Brave" now, like the princess in the movie, she's my brave princess :wub::wub:

thanks!!!



​


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Here is the most current information on the bile acids test procedure from the expert in the US.

http://www.ytca.org/health_biletestproced.doc-1.pdf

Maltese in the US are prone to liver disease so Dr. Center recommends all Maltese have a bile acids test as a puppy.

Hopefully your vet is familiar with this test.


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Gabby said:


> @Sandi:
> Her readings:
> GOT-AST (transaminasa oxaloacetica) 244 U/L (which is very very high, according to the report the normal value is between 23 - 66 U/L)
> GPT-ALT (transaminasa pirúvica) wasn't enough sample to do this test :smilie_tischkante:
> ...


Gabby, I am not a vet so do keep following up w/your vet. It looks like there are some results which need further study. It would appear the liver is an issue, but you also have problem w/the leg that complicates things. The alkaline phosphate is high. I am wondering if some of your results may be from the carprofeno (I think that is Rimadyl) as it is listed as one of the side effects---higher liver results. Not all dogs have issues w/Rimadyl but many do---so this is worth checking out too. Usually side effects show w/in 2/3 days of taking the meds & it takes some time to return to normal after the meds are discontinued. 

My Kitzel had liver issues (he has a great liver & terrific bile acids results on his test), but through all the drugs and anesthesia his were elevated so we put him on a special diet & Sam-e for a month. In the end his results were back in the normal range.
Your situation is complicated because of the need for surgery---so I can't give you any advice. Can you get a hepatitic kibble (I think Royal Canine is the one we used!) It may not help a lot but it won't hurt any to try it for a month along w/anything else the vet would prescribe.


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Gabby, I am so sorry hear that you and Brisa are faced with this additional issue. Brisa is in my thoughts and prayers. Sandi and Marj gave some great advice. Let us know how you and Brisa make out at the vet.


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Gabby, I forgot to add that Lisi's BAT was a bit on the higher side. When she was spayed they noted that her liver enzymes & her AP (what you call FA above) were both elevated. They attributed the elevated AP (FA) to the fact that she was still growing. I spoke w/our vet today as Kitzel had his lepto vaccine, and we decided that we will revisit these results in Oct/Nov. when they are due for other check-ups. She will be a year old in 2 days and has stopped growing. How old is Brisa?


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi all.. thanks again for your replies...

Brisa will be 8 months at august 4th, she's still so young!

I got the results today, they are very high again (higher than the other day)... I really don't trust this lab, they run out of sample the first time (which is very wierd, I know a little something 'bout this tests and you don't need a huge amount of blood  ) and for the second test they took 2 days for the results!!, they should have been ready yesterday!!, I just got them! I've call them in the morning and the lady hang up on me!!! honest!!!!

I will do for a third time all her blood tests again on saturday in a lab that I trust, wish I could do them tomorrow but I can't miss another day at my job, they'll fire me if I keep inventing excuses for my absences, and I need the money to pay for the surgery :blush:

The othopedist (the specialist with a very impressive resume) works with another lady (a vet of course), she's the one in charge of doing Brisa's check ups and he will just perform the surgery, which is posponed to God knows when :smilie_tischkante: She ordered an ultrasound today, which I'll do on saturday too. She wasn't familiar with the bile acid test but I'll ask directly on the lab on saturday, hope they can do it.

I'm not worried 'bout the AP 'cause she's still growing (assuming that dogs' blood results are like in humans), her AST was 244U/L the first time and the second one 645 ...????.... GPT wasn't measured the first time and the second one 1000!!!!!!!!!, both TEN times higher than normal....?????... Brisa is behaving as usual (not counting her leg problem), she eats, plays, poops everything like she used to, don't you think with such high values she should at least show some signs of a disease? Right now she's running like crazy with her sissy, I must hold her in my arms if I want that little one to be quiet, she's like a tornado leg problem or not. 

Anyways, I'll do all her tests again just to be sure the lab didn't made a mistake.

So saturday afternoon I'll have more news: blood test (again) and ultrasound... hope they're good!.. wish us luck!

Thank you again for your time and help, it really means a lot to me! I always tell my mom how much you help me, you guys give EXCELENT advices, so THANKS!!!:dothewave:


Oh, and thanks for the note on Rimadyl, I didn't knew 'bout those side effects, she took it just during 4 days (16th - 19th), hope that's causing her higher liver results.

May I ask a question?: what is Sam-e??:blush:

THANKSSS!!!!!


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Sorry to hear these labs didn't come out as you were hoping. Hopefully the lab Saturday will give you better results. You and Brisa are in my prayers! Please do keep us posted. Give your sweet girl a kiss for me!


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Blood samples taken 

In 6 hr we'll have news

In 4 hrs: ultrasound....

Please pray for my baby!, I'm confident her labs will be ok!!

thanks


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Gabby, it is a nutritional supplement (powder form for dogs---small, med. large amounts for each dog) which helps to cleanse & regenerate the liver. This is the tech name: S-Adenosyl methionine---you can google it & probably get info. I have actually taken something similar in a human form when I have to be on strong medications that possibly harm my liver. I got my liver enzymes down w/it!

Wait until you get your test results & talk w/the vet about what they recommend. It sounds like this vet is on top of things. I am so happy you got in for tests today. There is so much knowledge today & so much can be done---please don't lose heart. I had a puppy born w/liver disease who was operated & lived to be almost 17---he had issues but he did really well---and this was a LONG time ago! So much progress since then. Just take one day at a time. Let us know. Big hug. You are doing a great job.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

THANKS Sandi!!!, will look for it right now 

Just got back from the ultrasound... nothing wrong with her liver but apparently she has a "little stone" in her gallbladder (what's the name for "cálculo" in english?). The vet recommended to do the ultrasound again while she was fasting, no one told me that when I called to make the appointment  So good news I guess: her liver is ok  

Still waiting for the other lab's results, but I guess they will be altered too. Anyways, I don't care if I have to do a lab a thousand times just to be sure my baby is ok. They took a really small amount of blood today, just 1ml for the CBC, biochemiscal and hepatic panels, in small tubes (and very cute too!). The first lab had over 2ml of blood sample and according to them it wasn't enough... (sigh)

I'm a little more calm now... waiting for the lab results and the call from the vet... will keep you posted.

Brisa, and the entire fluff family send hugs and kisses to everybody!!

THANKS!!!


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Just got up to check if results were in :sweatdrop::sweatdrop:---great news! I am doing the happy dance here!:Happy_Dance::Happy_Dance:
Gabby, if you can't find Sam-E and decide to go that route---let me know. Is it safe to send you a package---will it be allowed if I write "nutritional supplement" on it? 

Be sure & keep running everything by your vet to see if they are okay w/it. If they don't know what it is you could print off some info for them to read. I know quite a people who are happy w/it, but since it isn't the liver you may not need it.

Do you know when the next ultrasound will be done? Please keep us posted. We are here for you & your Brisa, and all the other little babies.:wub:


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Glad to hear the ultrasound came back good! Hopefully the new lab results will be better. Please keep us posted! Hugs to Brisa and your fluff family!!


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

blood test nº3: bad again  ... which is what I was expecting since the ultrasound showed those "little stones"...

Next ultrasound: I have an appointment next saturday  Wish I could do it sooner but I really can't skip my work anymore, they will fire me, will see if I can get a cousin or someone to take her sooner. But it makes sense: the lab tests and the ultrasound. 

I'm glad it's not her liver, but what can you do with a dog who has those "stones"?. 
The orthopedist hasn't returned my calls  I'll wait until tomorrow. I'm worried 'bout Brisa: her leg and now her gallbladder, that must be painful. The vet who usually sees her prescribed a medicine meantime to help her gallbladder, can't find a proper translation in english for that one.

I have to wait to hear the orthopedist opinion... Meantime I'll ask in another Clinic to hear another expert's opinion... I hope to solve Brisas's problems soon.. don't want to see her in pain anymore... she's sooo brave, my little one... love her.

Thank you everybody, will keep you posted


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Oh sorry to hear this Gabby. Hopefully Brisa isn't too uncomfortable. Let us know what the vet and specialist says.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Ultrasounds are only about 80% reliable for detecting liver shunts, especially in small dogs, so I don't think you can rule out liver disease quite yet. Stones are also a symptom of a liver shunts. She really needs a bile acids test. Do they do them in your country?


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

I've ask in the lab and no, they're not familiar with the bile acid test.

Maybe here it's done under a different name?. Could you please tell me exactly what you measure in the test? I know I must take 2 samples: pre-prandial and post prandial. But, in the case of liver enzymes, the test is done this way: you must take 5ul of plasma and then add a substrate, after that you measure the absorbance in a spectophotometer... Could you please tell me how the bile acid test is performed? (in the lab). Maybe I can do it here, but I need more details... please. Like the tube for the blood: red or purple? (red: no edta, purple: edta).

The ultrasound will be repeated again tomorrow. A former school classmate is a vet, she asked me via facebook Brisa's tests to look at them and now she's helping us with her liver, the specialist and the vet still hasn't responded my emails or calls since saturday... so change in the team: I need a solution for Brisa NOW!, not when they decide it's time to make a simple call or return an email. I can't waste any time.

My former classmate runs a clinic, I'll take Brisa with her in the morning and she will stay with her during the day. The ultrasound will be done at 18:00, with these results she will decide what to do with her: surgery / medicines.

I'm 'bout to lose it :smilie_tischkante: hope everything turns out well for my baby.

THANKS


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I posted the link in post #26, but here it is again.

The blood has to be sent to Cornell to be tested. Your vet cannot do it in his office. Dr. Center's contact information is at the top of this memo. Your vet can call her with questions.

http://www.ytca.org/health_biletestproced.doc-1.pdf


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

oh yes, I've read that, sorry I forgot.

Can't send the samples to Cornell  I'm not from USA 
I know the vet can't do it in her office, but maybe the lab can 

THANKS


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Marj, Cornell??? Are we talking about the same thing---a BAT? Any vet can do the test & then send the 2 results to a regular lab to be tested. My vet here in Greece did both Lisi & Kitzel.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Gabby said:


> oh yes, I've read that, sorry I forgot.
> 
> Can't send the samples to Cornell  I'm not from USA
> I know the vet can't do it in her office, but maybe the lab can
> ...


I don't see why your vet can't send the samples to Cornell for testing. Express Mail would get them there quickly. I'm sure she can call Cornell and find out how to do it.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

I can't send blood samples via air mail, even it's express mail. FedEd, TNT, DHL don't send that kind of sample either. I've already asked, it's biological hazard according to them.

I think it must be done here, but under another name in God knows which lab.. will keep looking


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Gabby said:


> I can't send blood samples via air mail, even it's express mail. FedEd, TNT, DHL don't send that kind of sample either. I've already asked, it's biological hazard according to them.
> 
> I think it must be done here, but under another name in God knows which lab.. will keep looking



Oh, darn. I'd still have your vet contact Dr. Center to see what she would recommend. She developed the bile acids test and will know where you can get it done in your country is it is possible.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

found the info I needed here:
http://www.diazyme.com/products/pdf/TBA brochure read.pdf
(page 10). So it's an enzymatic reaction. I'm pretty sure it must be done here under another name, but with this info I'll call the labs now and ask them if they can do it


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Gabby said:


> found the info I needed here:
> http://www.diazyme.com/products/pdf/TBA brochure read.pdf
> (page 10). So it's an enzymatic reaction. I'm pretty sure it must be done here under another name, but with this info I'll call the labs now and ask them if they can do it


Great!


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Brisa is at the clinic right now waiting for her ultrasound... aaaannnddd: first sample for her BAT was already taken!  yup! found a lab for the test 

WISH US LUCK!!!


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Great news on finding a lab to do the test!! Good luck!!! Keep us posted!


----------



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Gabby, you are a real go-getter! :chili::chili: Good job! :cheer::cheer:

I somehow knew this was going to work out, so holding my breath for results.:wub:


----------



## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

edelweiss said:


> Gabby, you are a real go-getter! :chili::chili: Good job! :cheer::cheer:
> 
> I somehow knew this was going to work out, so holding my breath for results.:wub:


Ditto.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi ladies...

Good news: Brisa doesn't have those "little stones" in her gallbladder, but she has "sediment" on it (sp?). She can take medicines to eliminate it because everything is ok with the hepatobiliary ducts, which were checked with the ultrasound. The vet observed her gallbladder while she was fasting, then they fed her and waited for her gallbladder to clear out (yup, they were with her at least 2 hrs)... so no surgery needed for the gallbladder. :chili:

Her BAT was ok, her pre-prandial is a bit higher than the post-prandial but both are ok: 20.4 umol/L (pre) 17.7 umol/L (post) :chili::chili:

Her leg: The vet (my former school classmate) sent a video of Brisa walking to another 2 orthopedists, they thought she needs another rx, but this time done properly: in the first one Brisa is not in the position she should be (heaps are not aligned (?), and don't remember the other technical words). So it's necessary to do it again, so this time they can take measurements of her bones to determine if the surgery is needed.

The priority right now is her liver/gallbladder: she will be taking medicines during 3 months. Next week all the blood tests needs to be done again to check her, and will do the RX too. Most difficult part of all: she needs to rest and be quiet, meaning no running with her sissy and do all those crazy things Brisa usually does :wub: (Gosh I have soooo many stories with this little angel). Right now she's in a separate room just with her mom, who is like a photograph! :HistericalSmiley: poor Brisa: no playmate for a while :HistericalSmiley:

Thank you guys, will keep you posted


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

Well, this sounds a bit more promising. I'm glad things checked out ok for her gallbladder and hopefully the new blood tests will be better too the next time around. Poor little Brisa has to be kept quiet but it will be better for her in the long term. Definitely keep us posted on your sweet girl!!


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Great news! Bile acids values under 25 are in the normal range so at least you have ruled out liver disease.

Hopefully the orthopedics can get a plan to correct her hip.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

THANKS!!

New blood tests and x-rays next week... I'm really worried 'bout her leg :smilie_tischkante: hope they can help her while she's recovering from her gallbladder/liver problems :blush:


----------



## lmillette (Apr 23, 2012)

I sure hope things go well next week. And of couse, keep us posted!!


----------



## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Just because bile acids are normal does not mean there is no liver disease. Bile acids are a measure of how well blood moves through the liver. Many other factors can affect the liver and cause disease without harming the profusion.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi ladies...

I'm sorry it took so long to post again... having a lot of troubles over here...

Now an update on Brisa: She still seems ok, no symptoms at all... she eats, plays, runs, sleeps as usual... Her blood test: liver enzymes are still high, not as high as they were on her first tests but still pretty high.

I did a second ultrasound a while ago, and the diagnosis was: gallbladder mucocele. She's on treatment with ursodeoxycholic acid, and plus since a week ago I'm giving her silimarin. After the first week with ursodeoxycholic acid treatment her values dropped a lot!, now they're just the same (still high), and in the tests run yesterday her enzymes are a bit higher   

Does any of your dogs had this disease?. I've search for info, and Brisa has recieved the recomended treatment... but still she doesn't improve. I've read that surgery (removal of the gallbladder) is kind of dangerous, 20% of the dogs died after the firsts days of the surgery :'( Anyone here with a dog with no gallbladder??

And about her leg: did a second rx too with another specialist. This one with better resolution than the first one (that one was done with those films, pretty old)... He says her femur is ok but he thinks her knee is the problem... ???????????... I don't know what to believe now... the main problem is her liver: we need to focus on this and then solve her leg/knee problem.

So here I am.. trying to read and learn as much as I can on the net... We have an appointment with the vet the day after tomorrow, so I'm searching as much info as I can to ask lots and lots of questions...

THANK YOU AGAIN!... hope you're better then me :/

EDIT: Oh, forgot to ask... does anyone know where I can buy SAMe?... Found it on ebay but they don't ship it to my country


----------



## LJSquishy (Feb 27, 2008)

Vitacost.com sells SAM-e and it looks like they ship to Chile as well. 

Here is the link for it: same - Vitacost

You would need to check with your vet to see what dosage is appropriate.


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Which one is the best? Or are they all the same quality? There're 27 of them :/ i'm a little lost

THe vet wants to do a liver biopsy now  not with a needle, he wants to open her up   i dont know what to do, i have a bad feeling regarding that biopsy… is not sheduled yet, theyre runing more blood tests on her, and urine tests too, Im waiting for those results. The vet thinks she might have copper toxicosis :/ this is so overwhelming, i dont know how to help her, i read and read and nothing…

I was looking at vetgen.com they do a test to detect the genetic predisposition to that disorder, im going to tell the vet, maybe this can save her of the biopsy?? Want to test the entire family too, brisa doesnt have any signs of a disease, she eats runs and plays as usual. I use to check their weight normally and since this whole thing started she's even gained 350gr…

Anybody here with a dog eith this disease? Or anyone with a liver biopsy??


----------



## Gabby (Feb 21, 2009)

Genetic test ruled out  its breed specific: only for bedlingtongt erriers :'(


----------

