# Vet says......Origen & Acana too high in Protein for Maltese



## poochie2

As some of you know I have a one year old malt who has been on Orijen and Acana Pacifica throughout the year. Since due to her bladder infection I have been hearing from the vet, general people and holistic pet food stores that these foods are what cuased her bladder infection due to the Protein content. i had started her on Merrick canned food bu she was vomitting within hours of eating it so I went right back to Acana Pacifica topped with coco therapy coconut chips. Healthy right ? Can the protein content cause problems in small dogs? Suggestions/comments please and thank you.


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## Ladysmom

There is an ongoing debate about how much protein content is appropriate for a toy breed dog.

I do have one question, though. Has your Maltese ever had a bile acids test? Some of the symptoms you've described in the past like vomitng after eating, crystals in urine, etc. could suggest liver disease. If that is the case, high protein can cause problems.

Dr. Center recommends that all Maltese get a bile acids test once they reach 5 or 6 months since Maltese is one of the breeds highly effected by liver disease.


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## jmm

I believe protein content should be based on an individual dog, not by breed. Some dogs do great on high protein, others do not. You should work towards a diet that meets you dog's individual needs and medical conditions.


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## Nikki's Mom

Grain-free is usually higher in protein. If you are worried about protein, add some veggies to the kibble. 

IMO, it's better to feed a dog grain-free food, even if the protein is higher because there are ways you can lower the protein when you feed. 

Grains are not good for dogs. I'd personally rather risk high protein than high grains. 

Jackie is right. All dogs are individuals and you have to find out what is right for your dog.


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## MalteseJane

I don't know the health history of your dog. But after hearing what the Nutritional Biochemist said about food and dogs I would rather feed high protein than high grain. Basically he said that the kibble you buy at the grocery stores destroys the lining of the stomach. You should not feed grains or cereals to your dogs. And Jackie is right. It depends on the individual dog not the breed. Infections mostly happen when your immune system is low.


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## jmm

Not wanting to feed grains does not mean carbs are not good. Dogs are omnivores and most do fine to have carbs, fruits, and veggies in their diet. Dogs are not carnivores and cannot survive on meat alone.


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## Nikki's Mom

jmm said:


> Not wanting to feed grains does not mean carbs are not good. Dogs are omnivores and most do fine to have carbs, fruits, and veggies in their diet. Dogs are not carnivores and cannot survive on meat alone.


Oh, I thought that recent studies now label them as opportunistic carnivores? 

I agree that carbs in the form of fruits and veggies are great for dogs. (And people.)


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## Chalex

Preston gets Evo small bites, which is also high in protein. I give him pieces of apples and bananas for treats, which he loves.


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## wooflife

The information I understood from Dr. Beckers Seminar last summer was that high protein is not bad. It's high protein in kibble form that causes problems. Dogs need a lot of water to process the kibble and if they are not getting a lot of water it can put stress on the kidneys. Every dog is different though and as someone said earlier it's an ongoing debate.


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## poochie2

I Ithink I might be switching to Innova small bites or California Natural.Ii hope these are good choices.


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## Nikki's Mom

poochie2 said:


> I Ithink I might be switching to Innova small bites or California Natural.Ii hope these are good choices.


It is your decision. They both have grains.


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## MalteseJane

Suzan what do you think about Nature's Variety and Bravo ? The biochemist was mentioning those two in passing as an example. Personally he was more for home cooking and raw.


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## Furbaby's Mommie

A lot of the good quality premium foods now are using sweet potatoes as the carb. What do you think about that?

Personally I would never feed only dry kibble, no matter how good it is. Dogs where not intended to live on dry food. At least half of the food I feed is canned or otherwise wet, and I also add other fruits and veggies--sparingly because Shoni doesn't digest them well. Carrots, even cooked, are one thing he can't eat. Yes, dogs are individuals.:thumbsup:


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## Nikki's Mom

MalteseJane said:


> Suzan what do you think about Nature's Variety and Bravo ? The biochemist was mentioning those two in passing as an example. Personally he was more for home cooking and raw.


This is just my opinion, but if I absolutely had to feed kibble to Nikki, I'd only feed her Acana or Orijen. Although other dry foods might be complete and balanced, Acana and Orijen seem to be above the others regarding the actual quality of their food, and the better sources of their ingredients, which is important in the long run for overall good health. You don't want to just feed your dog a balanced food to keep it alive, you want it to thrive. If the ingredients are excellent quality and come from a good source, your dog has a better chance to thrive.  But still, kibble is processed food, no different than processed food for humans, sort of like cereal in a box. Living things like humans and dogs weren't meant to eat that 2X a day for all our lives. 

I'm just beginning to explore raw foods. So far, I've only tried Paw Naturaw organic raw bison medallions, and it was very good quality. It's so good in fact, I think I wouldn't mind eating it myself. (But I'd cook it a little first, lol.)

I am going to stick with home cooking and rotate in some Paw Naturaw bison. I hope to have Nkki on 1/2 raw bison, and 1/2 home cooked food, eventually. 

The only way to *really know* what your dog is getting is to home cook from scratch. or use a pre-mix like Dr. Harvey's and add in your own proteins, or feed a good a quality raw food like Paw Naturaw, (because with raw, it is really hard to disguise the quality of the food.)

Hope this helps.

Here's a link to Dr. Becker's book on how to home cook, or prepare a raw recipe. It's a good book, and it's not difficult to follow.

Natural Pet Productions

Hope that answers your question.


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## Nikki's Mom

Sweet potato is a good carb, but like anything else, your dog may or may not do well on it. 

The key is variety, and that is why home cooking is so good. You can mix it up and change it out.


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## Nikki's Mom

wooflife said:


> The information I understood from Dr. Beckers Seminar last summer was that high protein is not bad. It's high protein in kibble form that causes problems. Dogs need a lot of water to process the kibble and if they are not getting a lot of water it can put stress on the kidneys. Every dog is different though and as someone said earlier it's an ongoing debate.


Good info, and very true. You must get your dog to drink water. Nikki seems to want to drink out of MY water bottle, so I pour a little of MY water into a little saucer and she will lap it up!!


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## jmm

Nikki's Mom said:


> Oh, I thought that recent studies now label them as opportunistic carnivores?
> 
> I agree that carbs in the form of fruits and veggies are great for dogs. (And people.)


You'd have to provide a study. 

The most recent studies on wild dogs near human settlements was showing their diet to have a large carbohydrate component since they are more likely to scavange human scraps than hunt. To me, this emphasizes that every dog and every dog population is different. 

The average house dog does not burn large amounts of fat an energy compared to a wild dog who must actively scavange and hunt for food. We do see negative health effects in dogs who eat a diet too high in fat for their individual lifestyle. 

Dogs, across various environments, can have a wide array of dietary habits that can be healthy for them. 

I would never recommend one diet as appropriate for all dogs. I'm very hesitant to recommend any diet without getting to know the dog. Yes I recommend foods like Acana to some...and something more like California Natural or Prairie to others. I am hesitant to recommend raw to dogs and cats with certain medical conditions where I would be concerned about infections (which would be why I don't allow raw in my home). I am also hesitant to recommend home cooked without knowing the owner - owner compliance with a balanced recipe is key to the health of their pet. 

I don't think grain free is "better"...I think the appropriate diet for the individual dog is BEST.


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## MalteseJane

> The key is variety, and that is why home cooking is so good. You can mix it up and change it out.


That's what he said too : variety. I don't feed raw because Alex does not like it. So I do what the lady from Scared Poopless said, just give it a few seconds on both sides in the pan in a little bit of butter or oil. I add steamed rice and veggies. Sometimes I think he does not get enough fat. All the meats he gets are trimmed like I do for us. I know about the raw chicken wings being good for their teeths, we have tried that when he was still young but no luck. My husband even went down to the floor holding the chicken wing because Alex did not want to get his paws dirty. They ended up in the garbage.


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## Nikki's Mom

jmm said:


> You'd have to provide a study.
> 
> The most recent studies on wild dogs near human settlements was showing their diet to have a large carbohydrate component since they are more likely to scavange human scraps than hunt. To me, this emphasizes that every dog and every dog population is different.
> 
> The average house dog does not burn large amounts of fat an energy compared to a wild dog who must actively scavenge and hunt for food. We do see negative health effects in dogs who eat a diet too high in fat for their individual lifestyle.
> 
> Dogs, across various environments, can have a wide array of dietary habits that can be healthy for them.
> 
> I would never recommend one diet as appropriate for all dogs. I'm very hesitant to recommend any diet without getting to know the dog. Yes I recommend foods like Acana to some...and something more like California Natural or Prairie to others. I am hesitant to recommend raw to dogs and cats with certain medical conditions where I would be concerned about infections (which would be why I don't allow raw in my home). I am also hesitant to recommend home cooked without knowing the owner - owner compliance with a balanced recipe is key to the health of their pet.
> 
> I don't think grain free is "better"...I think the appropriate diet for the individual dog is BEST.



I'd have to go back and find that article about opportunistic carnivores, as I have no idea where I read it. It makes sense that in being around humans, dogs eat more carbs than in the wild, but I wonder if there were any real unbiased studies on which diet is most beneficial for their long-term health and well-being?

I agree that every dog is different and people have to try things for themselves. That's why I try to only offer an opinion of _what I'd do, _not what anyone else should do.

I think that feeding high fat can be tricky in dogs and humans, too. 

If a dog (and a human) is fed good quality fat, and a proper ratio of omega 3 fats to omega 6 fats, then that type of balanced fat intake is usually beneficial. Where we get into trouble is unbalanced ratios and poor quality (rancid) fats. 

In many commercial dog foods, the fats are poor quality and rancid. In addition, PUFA's (Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids) like canola oil, sunflower oil, soybean oil, corn oil, (any vegetable oil) are refined fats that in time can cause inflammation, which may causes obesity, diabetes, cancer, etc., if not balanced with a higher ratio of Omega 3 Fatty Acids. 

The Monounsaturated fatty acids like olive oil and avocado oil (canola is also monounsaturated - but it is a highly refined product-not good) and the Medium Chain Triglyceride Fatty Acids like unrefined Coconut oil and unrefined Palm oil do not cause inflammation, and are quite beneficial for most, if they are good quality and not rancid or refined with toxins to extract the oil (like Canola is.)

Of course most of us know that the Omega 3 Fatty Acids in Fish Oils are excellent - if they are good quality, not rancid or highly processed. (Grassfed beef and freerange eggs also have a lot of Omega 3 Fatty Acids)

Seed oils are another story. In my recent research, while Flax Oil and Hemp Oil contain beneficial Omega 3 fatty acids, and omega 6 too, new studies are showing that Omega 3's from animal sources are better used by the body than from seed sources. So if you feed your dog Flax oil or Hemp oil, you should take that into consideration. They're okay to use for Omega 3's but animal sources are better if they are tolerated. I don't have that research bookmarked, I'm sorry. 

So while I agree that too much fat in grain-free dog food is a serious concern, it's really the type of fat, and the quality of the fat, which is of utmost importance when we choose a food, because bad fats = obesity and disease, while good fats = good health. 

That's why I believe that the _quality_ of the food and the food _source_ is what you should look for first, then search for the right nutritional breakdown, etc. 

Everyone needs to make their own decisions. I am not recommending that you buy Acana, or any other food, I can just tell you what I would do if Nikki ate kibble, and what products I have used, and how they worked for Nikki. 

As far as home cooking, if you think that you will be consistent and diligent with it, then you might want to try it under guidance from a professional, whether that guidance is in person, on the phone, or from a recipe from a qualified DVM's book.


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## poochie2

THANK YOU ALL FOR SUCH GREAT INFORMATION THAT YOU'VE ALL PROVIDED. ITS ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO READ ALL THE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND EXPERIENCES. 
THANKS AGAIN:ThankYou:


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## jmm

Excellent information about fats! If anyone hasn't read In Defense of Food...its a good read! 

I used hemp oil last year and my super-sensitive dog tolerated it just fine. It is good to have options besides the traditional fish oil. Thanks for the suggestion. 

Domestic dogs have so much variety in size, activities, coats, etc....I would really like to see diet recommendations made by attributes such as that. Active herding dog of medium size does best on this, House bound toy breed does best on this, etc. That would be an awesome study.


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## Nikki's Mom

jmm said:


> Excellent information about fats! If anyone hasn't read In Defense of Food...its a good read!
> 
> I used hemp oil last year and my super-sensitive dog tolerated it just fine. It is good to have options besides the traditional fish oil. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> Domestic dogs have so much variety in size, activities, coats, etc....I would really like to see diet recommendations made by attributes such as that. Active herding dog of medium size does best on this, House bound toy breed does best on this, etc. That would be an awesome study.


Amen to that! Who would pay for that study, though? Isn't that always the problem? Unbiased studies that an unbiased source would pay for?

Another good book to read is Good Calories, Bad Calories. That book changed my entire way of thinking about diet and health. I know I always suggest it all the, time yada yada yada, and I know it's long and very detailed, but it's really an eye-opener regarding cholesterol, fat, and how we think they are related to modern-day diseases like heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and cancer. (Hint: It's not the fat. It's sugar/carb consumption and insulin regulation that are related to obesity and disease.) 

The movie Food, Inc. is good, too.


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## vjw

The American Animal Hospital Association has appointed a committee of veterinarians at veterinary schools, veterinarians in animal hospitals, and vet. techs to create canine nutrition guidelines for veterinarians and pet owners. These nutrition guidelines are to incorporate the latest in nutritional and medical information and are due to be published sometime this Summer. They have June as a target publication date.

I'll be SO glad to see what they recommend. There is SO much misinformation online about canine nutrition.

Please keep in mind:

When your vet. recommends certain foods, that the vet. has probably had at a minimum of a semester long course in nutrition. The information learned in that nutrition course has been gleaned from many, many years of nutrition studies done both at veterinary schools and even human medical schools. These studies are not just done in the US, but around the world.

There are regulatory and consulting agencies in the US who research and oversee animal nutritional requirements, like the Association of American Feed Control Officials, the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, and the Food and Drug Administration.

Yes, there's collaboration between some dog food companies and veterinary schools and personally I'm glad. It tells me something positive about a dog food company who has consulted veterinary professors for advice. Also, it tells me something positive about a dog food company who has done nutritional testing for years and years and their food has been proven to be nutritionally complete and balanced. This is why I don't like trying new companies who haven't had time to do their testing.

I rotate foods but I always try to feed a dog food that says on the AAFCO nutrition statement:

*Animal feeding tests* using AAFCO procedures substantiate that this food for dogs provides *complete and balanced nutrition* for all life stages. 

Please make sure if you are feeding home prepared meals that you are feeding a menu approved by a CERTIFIED veterinary nutritionist or you could be feeding your dog a nutritionally deficient diet. 




Joy


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## luvmyfurbaby

NATURAL PET ANIMAL HOSPITAL


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## luvmyfurbaby

vjw said:


> When your vet. recommends certain foods, that the vet. has probably had at a minimum of a semester long course in nutrition. The information learned in that nutrition course has been gleaned from many, many years of nutrition studies done both at veterinary schools and even human medical schools. These studies are not just done in the US, but around the world.
> 
> There are regulatory and consulting agencies in the US who research and oversee animal nutritional requirements, like the Association of American Feed Control Officials, the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, and the Food and Drug Administration.
> 
> 
> *Animal feeding tests* using AAFCO procedures substantiate that this food for dogs provides *complete and balanced nutrition* for all life stages.


AAFCO also allows the following:

In the food industry, only about 50 percent of every animal can be used as food for human consumption.

The remaining parts, or "by-products" – heads, feet, bones, feathers, blood, intestines, organs, fat scraps, even unborn fetuses – are used in pet food and animal feed.

The Pet Food Institute – the trade association of pet food manufacturers – acknowledges the use of by-products in pet foods. To quote them directly:

"The growth of the pet food industry not only provided pet owners with better food for their pets, but also created profitable additional markets for American farm products and for the byproducts of the meat packing, poultry, and other food industries which prepare food for human consumption."
Commonly you’ll find meat meals in pet foods, including poultry meal, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal. 'Meal' signifies that these ingredients are not fresh; they are "rendered".

Rendering is the process where various ingredients are emptied into a large vat and boiled for several hours. These high temperatures can damage proteins and destroy natural enzymes.

From a health standpoint, denatured proteins from high processing temperatures can lead to food allergies and intolerances and inflammatory bowel disease.

*But here’s what’s so controversial: In addition to food animal scraps, rendering, by law, can include grocery store expired meat (Styrofoam wrapping intact), road kill, diseased and disabled (and dead) cattle, and even euthanized pets.*

Pet food companies claim they no longer process dead dogs and cats (insiders admit they previously did), but the FDA has found pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in rendered meat-and-bone meal and animal fat.

If your pet food label states one or more named meats such as "chicken" or "lamb", they are not by-products. However, they are still mostly leftover scraps and bones. "Chicken" consists of backs, spines and ribs, with minimal meat left on the bones. And yes, bones can count as protein!

*Unless the label on your pet’s food states that the food is "safe for human consumption", you can bet the protein source is less-than-optimal.*


I think I will stick to my home cooking or raw on my babies. For emergency's I only have researched very high end kibble when necessary.


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## Nikki's Mom

luvmyfurbaby said:


> AAFCO also allows the following:
> 
> In the food industry, only about 50 percent of every animal can be used as food for human consumption.
> 
> The remaining parts, or "by-products" – heads, feet, bones, feathers, blood, intestines, organs, fat scraps, even unborn fetuses – are used in pet food and animal feed.
> 
> The Pet Food Institute – the trade association of pet food manufacturers – acknowledges the use of by-products in pet foods. To quote them directly:
> 
> "The growth of the pet food industry not only provided pet owners with better food for their pets, but also created profitable additional markets for American farm products and for the byproducts of the meat packing, poultry, and other food industries which prepare food for human consumption."
> Commonly you’ll find meat meals in pet foods, including poultry meal, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal. 'Meal' signifies that these ingredients are not fresh; they are "rendered".
> 
> Rendering is the process where various ingredients are emptied into a large vat and boiled for several hours. These high temperatures can damage proteins and destroy natural enzymes.
> 
> From a health standpoint, denatured proteins from high processing temperatures can lead to food allergies and intolerances and inflammatory bowel disease.
> 
> *But here’s what’s so controversial: In addition to food animal scraps, rendering, by law, can include grocery store expired meat (Styrofoam wrapping intact), road kill, diseased and disabled (and dead) cattle, and even euthanized pets.*
> 
> Pet food companies claim they no longer process dead dogs and cats (insiders admit they previously did), but the FDA has found pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in rendered meat-and-bone meal and animal fat.
> 
> If your pet food label states one or more named meats such as "chicken" or "lamb", they are not by-products. However, they are still mostly leftover scraps and bones. "Chicken" consists of backs, spines and ribs, with minimal meat left on the bones. And yes, bones can count as protein!
> 
> *Unless the label on your pet’s food states that the food is "safe for human consumption", you can bet the protein source is less-than-optimal.*
> 
> 
> I think I will stick to my home cooking or raw on my babies. For emergency's I only have researched very high end kibble when necessary.



Exactly.

I'll stick with cooking food for Nikki that I pick out at the market or buy from a local farmer, that I would eat myself. Or an organic-grass fed raw bison food in which I can see the quality with my own eyes.

I'm not about to trust the AAFCO or USDA to advise me on what food is safe and what food is not. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and the wrecked metabolism from the USDA recommended food pyramid and the AAFCO dog food that contributed to my bichon's poor health.

What in the world did our great grandparents and previous ancestors do without these mega-agencies telling us what to eat and what is safe and unsafe?

I'll tell you what they did. They ate good, healthy, unprocessed food without pesticides, drank unpasteurized milk, and gave their pets table scraps. Somehow some of them must have survived - at least long enough to build a country and populate it with their descendants. 

If people would educate themselves, even a little, on nutrition, they'd l be able to think for ourselves, seek out healthy food, and "vote with their dollar." Then the people who make crappy food would go out of business because no one would buy it. That's the way to regulate the pet food industry.


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## poochie2

I wish all the grocery stores would stop selling that "crap" once and for all . I went grocery shopping this morning and the store had a huge display of "Beneful". You get a bonus pack with each pack you buy. I felt so sorry for their dogs that actually had to eat that low grade pet food. Such a shame!:sweatdrop:


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