# Follow-up to Quincy's illness - vaccine maker offering to give us money. Thoughts?



## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

I felt it necessary to start a separate discussion from a post I just made in my other thread about Quincy.

One thing that is strange that I have not mentioned yet is how the maker of one of the vaccines (I will leave their name out for now) has agreed to pay us some money (4 figures) to help cover Quincy's medical bills we encountered while we treated him for GME/MUE. Our primary vet helped broker that "deal", so the vaccine maker did not do it voluntarily. We never asked for money nor asked our vet to help facilitate such a deal, to be clear. It all came out of the blue.

Because of my nature and my line of work I am in, I question why someone would be willing to voluntarily give money for something when it's nearly (if not completely) impossible to prove their product played any role in Quincy getting ill (as far as I can ascertain anyway and we have put A LOT of thought into this). Neither our primary vet or specialist thinks any of the vaccines (he received more than one) was the actual cause as much as the trigger for an underlying genetic condition that was present since day 1. The trigger could have ended up being a number of things, like anesthesia, bacterial infection, etc. 

We have not sent in the signed paperwork yet, but in short they want us to sign a release form in exchange for the money. My wife and I have talked extensively about it and we don't think there is any chance we could take this company to court and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their vaccine was the cause of Quincy's illness. The time and money spent doing that would not be worth it, as well as the mental anguish involved. So that leads me to believe they are paying us so we will not tell others of our story in an effort to minimize bad press or just to stop the internet rumor mill from affecting their business. Besides this company being purely altruistic, I cannot think of another reason they are offering to pay us anything since they really don't have to. One of the conditions of the release form is that we not speak about this publicly. 

I will be blunt, I don't care about the money. We'd be fine without their financial "gift". So I have to decide if i would rather have the ability to speak freely and openly about what happened to Quincy so others could be armed with as much info as possible. And I am not accusing this company of any wrongdoing as I have no concrete proof of such, but this all still raises red flags for me and I am still not sure how to process it all. Should I just chalk it up to a company truly caring about someone and offering financial aid?

What are your thoughts on this?


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, that is an odd one. Are they stipulating that you cannot discuss the possible causes of Quincys GME? Since you state that the money isn't an issue for you, I don't think I would be inclined to sign a waiver. I would want to be able to discuss and educate others in Quincy's name. I would like to know what it is that they know about this, such as how many other dogs have been afflicted after recieving their vaccine.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Mmmm! maybe they do have knowledge of a problem that would be brought out if it came to court.... no idea but does seem odd to me.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

It is an odd one indeed. I need to re-read the release form again, but in short one of the stipulations is that we cannot discuss Quincy's vaccine (specifically THEIR vaccine) in conjunction with his GME/MUE, i.e. we cannot imply/insinuate that the vaccine was in any way related to Quincy becoming sick. I will come right out and say it - they are willing to pay us $1500 in exchange for signing the release form, so it's not chump change.

I know how involved you are with bringing awareness to this disease and would have no problem sharing the document with you to look at.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

And again, I don't want to get into a bashing contest with this vaccine maker, but rather want to get ideas on how to interpret this financial offer. In this day and age most people, me included, are cynical about "free money" like this. It would be different if this was a charity, but it's a for-profit vaccine maker. Now with Quincy passing, it's even more difficult interpret this offer.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

Is that $1,500? or 15K?


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

$1500 would not be enough for me to sign a form of a company who is acting suspiciously like they may have contributed to the death of my baby, instead I would try to find sources who could take what records I have and see what connections can be made between the vaccine and the disease.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

it's $1,500, not $15,000. So it's not an "eye popping" amount, but it's still a considerable amount to be given voluntarily. I have no idea how they arrived at that amount either.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

shellbeme said:


> $1500 would not be enough for me to sign a form of a company who is acting suspiciously like they may have contributed to the death of my baby, instead I would try to find sources who could take what records I have and see what connections can be made between the vaccine and the disease.


that's the thing, neither our primary vet nor the neurologist who treated Quincy think there is anything "funny" going on as far as the vaccine being nothing more than one of several triggers that could have brought this disease to the surface. I am not saying I completely buy that, but we pressed both vets pretty hard about it. Perhaps they were trying to keep us focused on treatment rather than the cause so they downplayed the vaccine's role in this.

As if we needed this to consider right now, but I don't want us to make a hasty decision.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I believe that there is a strong movement against the required, repeated rabies vaccines. Just from my reading on this forum it _appears_ to me that quite a few little dogs come down with an auto-immune disease after receiving a third rabies shot. I imagine that as more cases are talked about over the internet the movement to _at_ _least allow titers _showing a continued immunity to rabies will grow stronger. It is, after all, the pharmaceutical companies that dictate the dose and frequency that the law requires.

My guess is that they don't want you to talk about it, because they are well aware that the vaccines do in fact trigger disease in more dogs than we even realize.

I hope that you will decline the hush money and use this terrible, heart-breaking experience to protect other little dogs from harm.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, it's a nice little offer for sure. It makes me very suspicious that they have some sort of knowledge that their vaccine has caused problems for other dogs. In truth, there is no way that you or anyone else could prove beyond a shadow that this was the cause. And all of the recent research does point to a genetic defect that makes some dogs vunerable to this problem. And the court doesn't recognize dogs as it does humans when it comes to damages. Dogs are considered property, so it fairly well limits the amount of any settlement you would ever recieve in court. So, it really seems they would really like to shut you up to be blunt. I can't answer for you. I know first hand how expensive the vet bills are for GME (just finally paid off a credit card I was using for Lola who died over a year ago!). For me though, I think I would want to be able to say my peace and educate any and everyone that would listen to me!


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

I agree with Shelly. I don't believe that I would take the money and think this could be dealt with in a way that could bring this out in the open and save the lives of many fluffs. It is very odd they would be doing this.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

$1,500 is pretty much chump change to the big companies to minimize possible bad publicity. That's my take on it. So really I think it is your decision as to whether you would prefer the money or the ability to talk about the possible connection with others. If it had been 15K then that would have been a different scenario all together.


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## Yogi's Mom (Jan 6, 2013)

*May Prayer Help You In the right direction.*
*Ill Be Praying for you.*
*Nickee in Pa**


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

I find this very odd as well. 
I lost my little Bunny to GME shortly after a vaccination too. Perhaps the problem is much more widespread that anyone is aware of and it just isn't public information yet? 
My other thought is that perhaps they are trying to maintain a good relationship with your vet, since vets are the ones "distributing" their product. 
In either event, offering to give you money for silence sure makes it seem like they are acknowledging that their vaccine is in some part responsible.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

thanks for the input. It's a balancing act in terms of not accusing the vaccine of being the actual cause (as there is no concrete scientific proof of that in Quincy's case) but still being able to share our experience and let others decide for themselves how to care for their dogs. I know one thing for sure, our approach to vaccines is going to be completely different going forward with Woodrow or any dog in our family.

My gut tells me Quincy was predisposed to this disease and it took some trigger, like a vaccine, to bring it to the surface. But was it a specific vaccine, the fact that he was given multiple vaccines at once, the fact that this was his Xth round of vaccines? Without scientific proof, it's all speculation. But at the same time, there is SOME connection between the vaccines and Quincy showing symptoms of this disease. He started having small focal seizures two days after getting his vaccines and had NEVER had any seizures prior to that.


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## shellbeme (Mar 1, 2011)

Link to GME and vaccines?

How to Make Rabies Vaccination Safer for Dogs | Truth4Dogs

If I were a vet and I kinda realized that sometimes vaccines led to things like GME, I would think that would put me in a very sticky situation. I am not claiming your vet knows anything like that, but if a vet did, or was even suspicious of it-I don't think they could really say so until it had been proven-and that might be really difficult in just one case. And pharmaceutical companies-that's where the money is these days and they are VERY good at cleaning up after themselves for the most part.

I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but it is a possibility.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

As I recall, Quincy's illness came on right after he was vaccinated..(?) Autoimmune disease, including encephalitis,(while rare) can be one of the side effects of vaccination...I have a Maltese who almost died from being vaccinated..also right after the vaccine, she developed inflammatory bowel disease, allergies, and has not been "right" since. (her immune system is compromised) She was fine before she was vaccinated. Maltese are one of the toy breeds most prone to vaccine reactions which is why we like to separate vaccines and not give the shots all at once..most vets should be aware of this, but sadly, some are not. I wish vaccines were safer. Even if Quincy had a predisposition to GME, he may have been healthy his whole life had he not had the vaccine that caused the reaction...the vaccines are to get the body to produce an immune response.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Kathleen said:


> I find this very odd as well.
> I lost my little Bunny to GME shortly after a vaccination too. Perhaps the problem is much more widespread that anyone is aware of and it just isn't public information yet?
> My other thought is that perhaps they are trying to maintain a good relationship with your vet, since vets are the ones "distributing" their product.
> In either event, offering to give you money for silence sure makes it seem like they are acknowledging that their vaccine is in some part responsible.


Good point, this could be more about buying good PR with our vet than with us. 

They are most certainly buying something, I don't think for one second they are doing this completely out of charity. If they gave us money and did not ask us to sign anything, then it might be one thing (although I could never see a company doing that under such circumstances). 

This might better explain the $1500 amount. It's enough to make you really consider it, unlike a $200 offer or something like that. It makes you think if they know what the "magic number" is in terms of what people are most likely to accept. For a lot of people, $1500 is 1/2 a month's gross income (or more).


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

AaronG said:


> My gut tells me Quincy was predisposed to this disease and it took some trigger, like a vaccine, to bring it to the surface. But was it a specific vaccine, the fact that he was given multiple vaccines at once, the fact that this was his Xth round of vaccines? Without scientific proof, it's all speculation. But at the same time, there is SOME connection between the vaccines and Quincy showing symptoms of this disease. He started having small focal seizures two days after getting his vaccines and had NEVER had any seizures prior to that.


But even if we don't know that it is a specific vaccine, or the size of the dose for our little guys, or the xth time of vaccination, the fact that your Quincy, and my Bunny, and so many others all developed GME shortly after vaccination is information that should be out there. Eventually the link will be figured out, but for now, by sharing our stories, hopefully it makes other owners more cautious about vaccinations and spurs some change. I think that change is going to have to come through owners' demands, not through vets or drug companies who profit from vaccines.


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## preisa (Mar 7, 2013)

I just don't buy it.....it's hush money if I ever saw it....sorry.... But it just does not set right with me. There may come a time down the road when you feel telling your story could possible save another fluff....and your hands are tied. I don't ever want to have to be in that position...so for me...I would never accept their offer. With that said....I certainly respect your decision. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

aprilb said:


> As I recall, Quincy's illness came on right after he was vaccinated..(?) Autoimmune disease, including encephalitis,(while rare) can be one of the side effects of vaccination...I have a Maltese who almost died from being vaccinated..also right after the vaccine, she developed inflammatory bowel disease, allergies, and has not been "right" since. (her immune system is compromised) She was fine before she was vaccinated. Maltese are one of the toy breeds most prone to vaccine reactions which is why we like to separate vaccines and not give the shots all at once..most vets should be aware of this, but sadly, some are not. I wish vaccines were safer. Even if Quincy had a predisposition to GME, he may have been healthy his whole life had he not had the vaccine that caused the reaction...the vaccines are to get the body to produce an immune response.


you are correct, he began showing symptoms a few days after getting vaccinated. His initial symptoms were limited to focal seizures, which we administered prednisone and later added PB. That actually helped until his condition escalated in March and then escalated to the point that he passed away 3.5 months later.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Kathleen said:


> But even if we don't know that it is a specific vaccine, or the size of the dose for our little guys, or the xth time of vaccination, the fact that your Quincy, and my Bunny, and so many others all developed GME shortly after vaccination is information that should be out there. Eventually the link will be figured out, but for now, by sharing our stories, hopefully it makes other owners more cautious about vaccinations and spurs some change. I think that change is going to have to come through owners' demands, not through vets or drug companies who profit from vaccines.


you are completely right, there is absolutely some correlation present between some dogs getting vaccines and developing GME/MUE, as we are seeing. I wish there were hard stats on this subject, such as what events took place before dogs developing these diseases. 

I still need to discuss this with my wife, which I think will be difficult, but I don't want Quincy's death to be swept under the rug if I think I can help bring awareness to others about the possible link between vaccines and GME/MUE. Even if it means we can help people change the way they give their dogs vaccines (such as spaced out rather than all at once), then that is SOMETHING.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

AaronG said:


> you are correct, he began showing symptoms a few days after getting vaccinated. His initial symptoms were limited to focal seizures, which we administered prednisone and later added PB. That actually helped until his condition escalated in March and then escalated to the point that he passed away 3.5 months later.


In this case, what happened to your poor baby was a result of vaccination...vets and vaccine makers don't want people to know the dangers of vaccines...after all, that is where most of their income comes from...JMHO


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Yes, but was the vaccine the _*only *_thing that could have caused this? I ask that respectfully, as I have learned that other events can cause GME/MUE in dogs. That is why I wish there were some better (any?) stats on this, as I'd like to know what % of dogs that develop GME/MUE do so shortly after being vaccinated? That would require some sort of robust data base.

The bigger picture question is how do dog owners respond to this? Should we at least push for a change in the manner in which vaccines are given? Which vaccines are not needed and under what circumstances? For house dogs, like our own, which vaccines are necessary, if any?

These are all rhetorical questions at this point, but maybe we the consumers and dog lovers need to at minimum push for a change in how many vaccines are being given to our dogs and the amount given in a single sitting.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

Does anybody remember if Biscuit had received vaccines shortly before he started getting sick?

Aaron, Biscuit's story is very similar to your story. His parents Vinn and Ann did everything humanly possible to save him, but after a long battle had to end his pain.

I think you might benefit by reading some of Vinn's posts. Here is a link:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1739329


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

Hmmmm, very interesting and very scary too. It sure gives you something to think about.


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## Daisy's Mommie (Sep 24, 2012)

Sounds like they are trying to buy your silence. I don't know about other people, but my silence is not for sale. If that vaccine is in any way however slightly to blame for the problems your baby had, I want to know about it. Daisy is due for her vaccines and I have been putting it off just because of things I have read and heard. I don't have a problem not vaccinating my furbabies since they never go outside. If vaccinating her puts her in danger, I will not risk it. Please tell them to take their $1500.00 and use it to make their vaccine safe. I hope you will consider letting us know which vaccine it is, so we can avoid it.


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## mdbflorida (Feb 28, 2013)

Not an expert but it is strange. It makes me believe they have had a problem before. Or it is just their risk analysis people telling them make nice for no bad PR. I don't think I would want them telling me how to treat my little one -don't know if that is part of the deal.


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

OMG it is Gracie's vaccine accident all over.... But she got permanent liver damage not gme. 

I am out... Will respond more when I am uome not typing on phone. 

We have been in this boat before....


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## Zoe's Mom88 (Apr 25, 2011)

This is interesting.

Why Veterinarians Don't Recognize Vaccine Reactions | Truth4Dogs


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Daisy's Mommie said:


> Sounds like they are trying to buy your silence. I don't know about other people, but my silence is not for sale. If that vaccine is in any way however slightly to blame for the problems your baby had, I want to know about it. Daisy is due for her vaccines and I have been putting it off just because of things I have read and heard. I don't have a problem not vaccinating my furbabies since they never go outside. If vaccinating her puts her in danger, I will not risk it. Please tell them to take their $1500.00 and use it to make their vaccine safe. I hope you will consider letting us know which vaccine it is, so we can avoid it.


That is part of the problem, he received multiple vaccines at the time (need to look at his records tonight and report back), so I am not sure how we could say with certainty which one was the culprit. I will gladly share whatever info I have, but at the same time I don't want to discourage anyone from getting their dog vaccinated when they need to be and thus open a different can of worms. Bottom line is that I am not saying stop giving your dogs vaccines, but take our story along with others' stories and come to the best decision possible. 

I know in general there is a lot of controversy about vaccines for both humans and animals. I think the days of just blindly accepting that we should give whatever vaccines the medical companies say we should are over (or are coming to an end).


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

What do we do as pet parents. We take our dog to get his shots thinking we are being good parents when in turn, these shots could bring out an underlying condition or even in fact be the cause of an illness. Our dog has no say in the matter of getting shots and when it comes to rabies, we have no say either. This is very scary. If Pipper ever got sick from a vaccination, I would in turn blame myself (thats just the way I am) and I think it would just about kill me. How do we know what to do.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

I too think that either the drug company has had so many complaints that this is the way the do damage control...really a small sum for a big company, but for people who don't have much income or savings, especially for their pet's health (unlike most of us who have insurance or a fund put aside) it's enough to sway them and gain silence. What would weigh on my mind is that in the future another dog might have suffered what Quincy if there is a link found to vaccine's and knowing you were gagged about what happened in your case. I do vaccinate Tyler - he's had them all but I am asking for titers this go around just because I am not totally sure that many of these medical issues doesn't come from vaccines. If you can afford it, I would not accept their offer. It's just a matter of principle.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

I am a firm believer in vaccines causing many issues in our dogs. Bogie nearly died when he was given the last of the puppy boosters and a rabies shot at the same time. His reaction occurred within a hour of the shots so I'm sure one or more of the shots caused the reaction. Can I prove it, no, but Bogie has had digestive issues ever since. 
Thankfully Bogie is ok with careful monitoring of his diet. He is 8 years old now, and I will not let him have any more vaccines. I have had him titered in past years, but I am no longer going to that since I will not allow him to have vaccines no matter the result. My vet at the time said "if I have any problems with vaccine reactions, it's always these little white dogs" . He is no longer my vet. 

To answer your original question, no I would not accept the money unless you really need it. Too many vets follow pharmaceutical recommendations which. of course, benefits the pharmaceutical industry and the vets pocketbook. As with our health, we need to be our dogs advocate and try to help other pet owners by sharing our experiences. I have learned more from this forum than from any vet.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

pammy4501 said:


> Well, that is an odd one. Are they stipulating that you cannot discuss the possible causes of Quincys GME? Since you state that the money isn't an issue for you, I don't think I would be inclined to sign a waiver. I would want to be able to discuss and educate others in Quincy's name. I would like to know what it is that they know about this, such as how many other dogs have been afflicted after recieving their vaccine.


:goodpost:
Same here, think of the countless lives could be saved... 

Can't put a price on even one live saved...wonder how many others they've taken advantage of their grief and loss with the same offer....

You do what ever is in your heart to do...:wub:


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Snowbody said:


> I too think that either the drug company has had so many complaints that this is the way the do damage control...really a small sum for a big company, but for people who don't have much income or savings, especially for their pet's health (unlike most of us who have insurance or a fund put aside) it's enough to sway them and gain silence. What would weigh on my mind is that in the future another dog might have suffered what Quincy if there is a link found to vaccine's and knowing you were gagged about what happened in your case. I do vaccinate Tyler - he's had them all but I am asking for titers this go around just because I am not totally sure that many of these medical issues doesn't come from vaccines. If you can afford it, I would not accept their offer. It's just a matter of principle.



I've wanted to do titers too, but we travel and if I have to board mine, I have to have them fully vaccinated, no titering...


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

Sylie said:


> Does anybody remember if Biscuit had received vaccines shortly before he started getting sick?
> 
> Aaron, Biscuit's story is very similar to your story. His parents Vinn and Ann did everything humanly possible to save him, but after a long battle had to end his pain.
> 
> ...


OMG that's right...


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

Okay, I'm home now.... I want to share my story and some of my reading plus information our Holistic Vet has given us.

First - I'm sorry Quincy developed GME as a result of vaccines.

My Grace has permanent liver damage, and other things it seems (broken thermostat), from a vaccine "incident".

Was he predisposed or was this caused by a vaccine? Who knows. But the way our Holistic vet explained things I wonder if many of these illnesses are caused by the vaccine - and it isn't really a predisposition, just that some breeds are more sensitive to vaccinations (which Maltese are). I hope that made sense.

Vaccines cause inflammation. Period. They cause the immune system to stir up, they do have toxins which the body must detox - all this causes inflammation. Usually dogs can handle this. But when you have a breed that is sensitive to vaccines like Maltese are - when you throw in multiple vaccinations at once it causes a lot of inflammation all at once. With puppy vaccines especially, the dog usually doesn't have enough time between scheduled vaccination to fully recover - lower inflammation and detox - before the next "assault" occurs. Puppy vaccines can take years to recover from, but the symptoms of the inflammation are often not noticed because dogs can't talk. They may be sensitive to foods or get rashes or be anxious.... but we see these are "normal" for dogs... when it isn't. But by the time the dog might start to recover a little, they get more vaccines.

This inflammation leads to things like: Allergies, IBS, Colitis, other GI disorders, Skin disorders, neurological disorders/symptoms, etc. Fear, anxiety, other behavior issues...

There is more information on what chronic inflammation does to humans than pets - but it is the same. So I'd do reading on that. Because vaccines cause inflammation.

Which is why when Grace gets a vaccine now she gets a shot of Traumeel (a natural anti-inflammatory), and is put on Thuja for 1 week before and 1 month after the vaccine. And she will only get ONE vaccine at a time. Never multiple or combos again.


Okay.... This will be too long if I go on with that more.... so moving on to our experience with vaccine issues, vaccine companies, and vets...

Grace had a "vaccine incident" at 14 weeks. Now, the way her incident was handled left a lot of uneasy feelings of the vet covering things up. The way the vets handled her when I took her in for emergency care was how they would have handled a vaccine accident (Bordetella vaccine - she was injected with the live nasal drops). But when I brought up a potention *reaction* (not even an accident), the vet denied it and yelled at me! They were going to treat her for worms (antibiotic) which would have been the final step in treating the vaccine accident (fluids, steroid, antinausea and antibiotic was the treatment for it).... But Grace came back negative for worms, so I didn't even go in for the antibiotic because I had this bad feeling. The vet wouldn't let me see Grace's actual records, I saw them briefly and the stickers for the vaccines, but couldn't read them.

We ended up leaving that vet and rushing her to a Holistic vet who saved her live, basically. She listened to me about the fear of the vaccine accident and treated her completely for that. 

Her case wasn't even brought to the partner's attention until I wrote a bad review of them on Yelp months later. I did go in and talk to the partner. She was very nice and understanding. She told me, "You do know the weight of the accusation you are making, don't you?" .... I said yes. I was accusing the other vet of accidentally giving Grace the wrong vaccination, BUT also covering it up. She admitted they previously had the kind of accident I was claiming a few years ago, but felt the vet who we had seen wouldn't have done anything like that nor covered it up. But when I saw her file, the sticker was different. The Bordetella vaccine was a bright blue sticker, when the last time I saw her file only white and yellow stickers were on it. So I just felt wrong.

The vet offered to contact the vaccine company as a "bad vaccine reaction". I said fine to it, because I felt an investigation into Grace's case would be a good thing.

For a file that is sent to the vaccine company to make it to the "level" where you get actual payment, it goes through like 3-4 different investigations. So 3-4 different people read the file... and if it passes the first, it goes to the next level and so on.

Grace's file made it all the way to them asking us how much money we wanted to be reimbursed. The amount you are being offered is about the amount they will pay. They very rarely do large amounts.

We never heard back from them. But we did hear back from the vet, who offered to pay for Grace's care that initially followed her vaccine "incident" (the word that was used, and has been from now on).....

So for us it was the vet who was eventually giving us "hush" money... But either way.... yes, that is what it is.

The vet doesn't want you to bring attention to it with their other patients because then they have paranoid patients. They worry about pets not getting vaccinated and getting sick and spreading disease, etc. It's a valid concern, I suppose.

But the reality is - pets are over vaccinated.

Grace did not have any vaccines since 14 weeks of age. Not one. She finally had her mandated rabies vaccine a few months ago. And even that the vet gauged the dose for her body weight (instead of the "one size fits all" dose).... 

But we won't be getting any other vaccines for them unless needed. At 3 years we will do a titer of the other vaccines and see where she is and if it needs redone. But some vaccines can last for up to 7 years. The rabies will be the only one she gets every 3 years because it is the law.

I hope I made sense.... my brain doesn't always, and I kept forgetting things LOL

As far as what to do: Do what you feel in your heart you are comfortable with, what you feel will honor you and your dog. No one else can make that decision for you.

And I'm not telling people not to vaccinate either.... But be educated about it, don't just do something because you are told to. That is something I honestly would never have done if I myself was not sick with an illness most doctors deny. I have learned to educate myself and know things just as well as my doctor.... and to bring articles with me. 

And listen to your gut. You will know if things are right, or if it isn't. We dismiss our gut reactions too often because someone is a doctor or a veterinarian...so we think they know better than we do.... and that isn't always the case.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Tori said it all. :thumbsup:

As for the amount they are offering you my thinking is that they estimate the value of the dog at $1,500 since dogs are considered property. If you don't need the money, don't accept it.


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## michellerobison (Dec 17, 2009)

It's so sad what these companies do to cover their bums. Lives at stake and hearts too.
Look at Beneful's debocle...everyday precious lives lost in heart wrenchingly long ordeals for the pets and their loved ones.... and it's still on the shelves.
If I'm in the pet isle,I tell people not to buy it and show them on my phone, why.
They had no idea, only word of mouth helped them!

Our hearts are with you....


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## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

MalteseJane said:


> Tori said it all. :thumbsup:
> 
> As for the amount they are offering you my thinking is that they estimate the value of the dog at $1,500 since dogs are considered property. If you don't need the money, don't accept it.


That is usually it.... the dog's life is only worth $1,500.... and that is a pure bred.


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## Sylie (Apr 4, 2011)

I figured out how they came to the amount. It is equivalent to the salary of the pharmaceutical companie's CEO for five minutes, based on a forty hour work week and a salary of $58,000,000.00 per year. Ok, 4.5 minutes.


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## CorkieYorkie (Apr 10, 2012)

I pretty much agree with what everyone said, that it's basically hush money. $1500 is nothing compared to the pain and grief you guys are going through... I even think it's a little insulting, tbh. 

That said, I also agree that if you don't need the money, don't take it. I would instead do what they are trying to prevent you from doing: TALK ABOUT IT. Spread the word. 

Vaccinations are so scary... we live in a wooded area, so I want to be safe, but there are just SO many horror stories out there... Ozzie had an allergic reaction to his rabies (despite the vet denying it) and actually seemed annoyed when I wanted to separate out his vaccines... could be time for a new vet for us :-/


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks everyone for your honest feedback. I will talk to my wife about this when the timing is more appropriate, but I will mention to her that the ability to discuss Quincy's downfall after getting his vaccines is more important than the money. We are blessed in that we don't need the money, so turning it down is not a problem. I wish I could take the money and donate it to a good cause and still *legally *be able to discuss this with others.

I am going to bring the release form to work tomorrow and scan it so others can read it. Maybe it will help somehow or at least shed some light on how this company operates.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

And BTW, the $1500 for the property value of our dog makes perfect sense, as most Maltese with their papers cost $1000-2000. If it was a mutt, I bet they wouldn't have offered jack, not that it matters.


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

If I remember correctly - and Pam, you might remember better than me- the questionnaire that went along with the blood sample for the GME study last year asked for complete vaccination records including manufacturer. It would make sense that if there is a marker that indicates predisposition, you'd want to low which vaccines to svoid.

Personally, I wouldn't take the money - I think education is more important.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

I'm so very sorry for your loss.

I thought I would share with you some further vacinnation information - Jan Rasmusen, author of 'Scared Poopless' (which many of us here on SM have read & recommend), has a website which may interest you ...

Jan lost her darling boy Jiggy last year.

Top Natural Holistic Dog Health Care Book: Multiple Award Winner


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

maggieh said:


> If I remember correctly - and Pam, you might remember better than me- *the questionnaire that went along with the blood sample for the GME study last year asked for complete vaccination records including manufacturer.* It would make sense that if there is a marker that indicates predisposition, you'd want to low which vaccines to svoid.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't take the money - I think education is more important.


 You are absolutely correct Maggie! The researchers wanted every bit of that info. And we provided it to them!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Actually since you have already spoken out in a public forum then you have violated the said agreement already. Anyone can research what has been made public here.


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## Kmarie (Apr 2, 2013)

Wow im in shock with all this info, it definitely opened my eyes especially because im a first time owner, its dissapointing to see some vets that dont care about our little loved ones. You guys should make a thread of vaccines awareness so that new owners can be educated based on what you guys experienced.


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

edelweiss said:


> Actually since you have already spoken out in a public forum then you have violated the said agreement already. Anyone can research what has been made public here.


My wife and I haven't signed anything, so we are not in violation of anything


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

I think one of the major messages that should come from all this is that dog owners should question EVERY little thing vets do (or want to do) to our dogs at their annual exams. I understand why we want to defer to vets and trust in them completely, but we also need to remember that vets are not scientists, they are "technicians" who follow protocols and standard industry practices. So it's up to us as "consumers" to put them on the spot and ask difficult questions. If they are uncomfortable answering or don't have an answer, then maybe we need to find new vets? 

I just feel like such a dope for not doing this BEFORE. It took the tragic loss of our Quincy for me to come to this conclusion.


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

AaronG said:


> I think one of the major messages that should come from all this is that dog owners should question EVERY little thing vets do (or want to do) to our dogs at their annual exams. I understand why we want to defer to vets and trust in them completely, but we also need to remember that vets are not scientists, they are "technicians" who follow protocols and standard industry practices. So it's up to us as "consumers" to put them on the spot and ask difficult questions. If they are uncomfortable answering or don't have an answer, then maybe we need to find new vets?
> 
> I just feel like such a dope for not doing this BEFORE. It took the tragic loss of our Quincy for me to come to this conclusion.


Totally agree :thumbsup: I can be a really tough/annoying LOL patient, and doggy owner. I question any substance or surgery or whatever, extensively to determine the right course of action. I am fortunate to have a holistic vet that seems to feel the same way I do. Had both of my girls titered for vaccinations and given their high proven immunity I doubt I will ever vaccinate them again, after watching Dr Becker interviewing Dr Shultz on vaccines.




 Rabies isn't an issue where we live so that isn't necessary unless I travel with them.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...f-most-pets-are-vaccinated-way-too-often.aspx Dr Schulz himself does not re-vaccinate his own pets (except for Rabies due to law) ever again after proving immunity through titering.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

What I was saying is "you can't take the money if you have already done what the agreement would be asking you not to do."


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## AaronG (Apr 15, 2013)

edelweiss said:


> What I was saying is "you can't take the money if you have already done what the agreement would be asking you not to do."


Well, only my wife's name is on the release form. If we wanted to get "technical", she could claim she has no knowledge of what I am doing and never gave me consent to do what I am doing. But anyway....

I kind of want to take their money to donate to a good cause and still be a spokesman for Quincy, in a perfect world. My wife is not much of a message board, "rah rah" kind of person. That is more my thing.


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