# Chryptorchid?



## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

I bought my two Maltese from 2 different known breeders , from 2 different states! Both breeders are aware of the fact that I might be interested in breeding and I have AKC registration with full breeding privileges for both of my babies.
I am still doing research and studying about breeding and all that it entails! I haven't made up my mind yet!

When I got my second one, my male, I brought him him to my vet for the full checkup. That is when we found out that my baby has only on testicle. Can't even feel the second one! 
I went to a completely different vet in a different city for second opinion! Same thing! 
Contacted the breeder and I will be getting a new puppy in the Spring! No problem!!

Now I have a few question: this problem is hereditary, anybody can tell me if it is the male or the female or need for both of them to have the genes?

How can a vet be so wrong and pass a dog when he knew that the dog might be used as a breeder?

What would be the ethical thing for that breeder to do?

By the way, that breeder is the one who sent me here!


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

oh? who are these known breeders?


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 07:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690029


> I bought my two Maltese from 2 different known breeders , from 2 different states! Both breeders are aware of the fact that I might be interested in breeding and I have AKC registration with full breeding privileges for both of my babies.
> I am still doing research and studying about breeding and all that it entails! I haven't made up my mind yet!
> 
> When I got my second one, my male, I brought him him to my vet for the full checkup. That is when we found out that my baby has only on testicle. Can't even feel the second one!
> ...



Hi. I'm sorry I really don't have any anwers for you. But I do have a couple of questions, hope you don't mind. What is going to happen to the little boy, with only one testicle? Are you going to keep him?

Have you ever bred before?

Sorry, these were the questions that popped in my head.


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (Carrie @ Dec 15 2008, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690050


> oh? who are these known breeders?[/B]


I did not come here to blame a breeder!
I came here for answers. I do not want to start a bashing of any type!
If I cannot find answers here without having people getting all ready to jump on somebody else and blame them, I will continue my research somewhere else!

I love both of my babies, am keeping the one that cannot breed, I am paying out of my own pocket for his surgery and we are keeping him as a ''pet'' only!!!!

I really came here for answers, so...


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

How old is the puppy? If he is young, they can go up and down. I would call the breeder and be sure it was down before hand. 

If he is cryptorchid he should be neutered and yes it is hereditary (obviously since he'd be neutered he's not being bred).


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 07:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690065


> QUOTE (Carrie @ Dec 15 2008, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690050





> oh? who are these known breeders?[/B]


I did not come here to blame a breeder!
I came here for answers. I do not want to start a bashing of any type!
If I cannot find answers here without having people getting all ready to jump on somebody else and blame them, I will continue my research somewhere else!

I love both of my babies, am keeping the one that cannot breed, I am paying out of my own pocket for his surgery and we are keeping him as a ''pet'' only!!!!

I really came here for answers, so...
[/B][/QUOTE]


I do apologize. My questions were for me to learn. I truly didn't mean any harm. I just am petrified of breeding, and couldn't do it myself and glad your keeping the little guy.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 07:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690065


> QUOTE (Carrie @ Dec 15 2008, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690050





> oh? who are these known breeders?[/B]


I did not come here to blame a breeder!
I came here for answers. I do not want to start a bashing of any type!
If I cannot find answers here without having people getting all ready to jump on somebody else and blame them, I will continue my research somewhere else!

I love both of my babies, am keeping the one that cannot breed, I am paying out of my own pocket for his surgery and we are keeping him as a ''pet'' only!!!!

I really came here for answers, so...
[/B][/QUOTE]
hm. all i did was ask a question. most "known" breeders do not sell their puppies with "full breeding privileges" to just anybody. 

i was just looking for more information to assess the situation. sorry my question got you so worked up. :huh:


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 15 2008, 07:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690066


> How old is the puppy? If he is young, they can go up and down. I would call the breeder and be sure it was down before hand.
> 
> If he is cryptorchid he should be neutered and yes it is hereditary (obviously since he'd be neutered he's not being bred).[/B]


We got him when he was 5 months old! 
Even the breeder's vet contacted me saying that he felt it during the exam. But I have 2 certificates signed by two different vet saying otherwise!
He is now 6 months old and we've had him checked again last week! (Just in case because I do not like the idea of this little tyke having to go under the knife and for all intend of purpose have 2 surgeries in one) My vet explained to me that one side is easy but the other they have to open and because he is so small, they might have a bit of a problem. Not looking forward to it!


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (Allheart @ Dec 15 2008, 07:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690068


> QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 07:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690065





> QUOTE (Carrie @ Dec 15 2008, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690050





> oh? who are these known breeders?[/B]


I did not come here to blame a breeder!
I came here for answers. I do not want to start a bashing of any type!
If I cannot find answers here without having people getting all ready to jump on somebody else and blame them, I will continue my research somewhere else!

I love both of my babies, am keeping the one that cannot breed, I am paying out of my own pocket for his surgery and we are keeping him as a ''pet'' only!!!!

I really came here for answers, so...
[/B][/QUOTE]


I do apologize. My questions were for me to learn. I truly didn't mean any harm. I just am petrified of breeding, and couldn't do it myself and glad your keeping the little guy.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I did not mean to snap at anybody, but I read some other post before posting and I was (am) nervous about the reactions!

He is an adorable baby, we all fell in love with him and there was no way we were going to send him away!


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I don't know the specifics of the genetics, but I have read that a cryptorchid dog should NEVER be bred to a female dog because it is definitely a hereditary condition. Also the risk of testicular cancer and testicular torsion is very high if the surgery isn't done to remove the undescended testicle(s).








Joy


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 07:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690081


> QUOTE (Allheart @ Dec 15 2008, 07:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690068





> QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 07:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690065





> QUOTE (Carrie @ Dec 15 2008, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690050





> oh? who are these known breeders?[/B]


I did not come here to blame a breeder!
I came here for answers. I do not want to start a bashing of any type!
If I cannot find answers here without having people getting all ready to jump on somebody else and blame them, I will continue my research somewhere else!

I love both of my babies, am keeping the one that cannot breed, I am paying out of my own pocket for his surgery and we are keeping him as a ''pet'' only!!!!

I really came here for answers, so...
[/B][/QUOTE]


I do apologize. My questions were for me to learn. I truly didn't mean any harm. I just am petrified of breeding, and couldn't do it myself and glad your keeping the little guy.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I did not mean to snap at anybody, but I read some other post before posting and I was (am) nervous about the reactions!

He is an adorable baby, we all fell in love with him and there was no way we were going to send him away!
[/B][/QUOTE]


Don't be nervous...believe me....you came to the right place to ask your questions...I don't even know your little guy, but I love him too. :heart:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 06:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690076


> We got him when he was 5 months old!
> Even the breeder's vet contacted me saying that he felt it during the exam. But I have 2 certificates signed by two different vet saying otherwise!
> He is now 6 months old and we've had him checked again last week! (Just in case because I do not like the idea of this little tyke having to go under the knife and for all intend of purpose have 2 surgeries in one) My vet explained to me that one side is easy but the other they have to open and because he is so small, they might have a bit of a problem. Not looking forward to it![/B]


I would wait a few more months...
As I said, testicles can move up and down in puppies. It very well may be it was down when the other vet examined him.
You were sold a "show potential" pup then...well, that's not a guarantee it will be show and breeding quality as the adult teeth are not in. You cannot purchase a show quality pup until the adult teeth are in. I hope you understood that when the dog was purchased.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 15 2008, 07:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690089


> QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 06:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690076





> We got him when he was 5 months old!
> Even the breeder's vet contacted me saying that he felt it during the exam. But I have 2 certificates signed by two different vet saying otherwise!
> He is now 6 months old and we've had him checked again last week! (Just in case because I do not like the idea of this little tyke having to go under the knife and for all intend of purpose have 2 surgeries in one) My vet explained to me that one side is easy but the other they have to open and because he is so small, they might have a bit of a problem. Not looking forward to it![/B]


I would wait a few more months...
As I said, testicles can move up and down in puppies. It very well may be it was down when the other vet examined him.
You were sold a "show potential" pup then...well, that's not a guarantee it will be show and breeding quality as the adult teeth are not in. You cannot purchase a show quality pup until the adult teeth are in. I hope you understood that when the dog was purchased.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Wow!!! - Wait??? Is this something new to wait? The material I've read has stated usually you can tell by six weeks, but you can wait until twelve weeks to determine if the testicle is going to descend. Like this article:

Drs. Foster and Smith article


Cornell has been studying cryptorchidism and this professor's site says the testes should be descended by six weeks.

Cornell Professor's link


Let me know if there's something different out there. I'm curious about this topic as the miniature poodle that I had years ago had an undescended testicle at a six weeks exam but it dropped a couple of weeks later. I was so relieved to not have to do the surgery on him. He was such a tiny little guy.




Joy


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (vjw @ Dec 15 2008, 07:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690104


> Wow!!! - Wait??? Is this something new to wait? The material I've read has stated usually you can tell by six weeks, but you can wait until twelve weeks to determine if the testicle is going to descend. Like this article:
> 
> Drs. Foster and Smith article
> 
> ...



Joy,

In this case the testicle has been down (supposedly according to the breeder's vet). They can move up and down in puppies. If it was never down, it is not going to change. But if they've been jumping around, I'd give it a little time to see if it might stay down. Does that make sense? Two different situations
1. this one it has been down
2. what you're referring to it never came down.


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## sassy's mommy (Aug 29, 2005)

JMM has given some good advice. I just wanted to add........if you purchased your pups from ethical show breeders then each would be the greatest source of info on the pup's gene pool. Are you being mentored by either breeder? I could be wrong but from what I know, anytime an ethical show breeder allows a newbie to carry on their line in a breeding practice the initial breeder mentors and has a close hand in the new breeding practice. Please stay in contact with your breeder....he/she would be your best source of info regarding your male.


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (vjw @ Dec 15 2008, 07:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690082


> I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I don't know the specifics of the genetics, but I have read that a cryptorchid dog should NEVER be bred to a female dog because it is definitely a hereditary condition. Also the risk of testicular cancer and testicular torsion is very high if the surgery isn't done to remove the undescended testicle(s).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is also what I have found in my research! Thank you for taking the time to answer!


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Dec 15 2008, 08:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690123


> JMM has given some good advice. I just wanted to add........if you purchased your pups from ethical show breeders then each would be the greatest source of info on the pup's gene pool. Are you being mentored by either breeder? I could be wrong but from what I know, anytime an ethical show breeder allows a newbie to carry on their line in a breeding practice the initial breeder mentors and has a close hand in the new breeding practice. Please stay in contact with your breeder....he/she would be your best source of info regarding your male.[/B]


I am in touch with my breeders, and my male's one had never heard of this. She has been very honest with me and had the last male from the same litter checked and he seems to have the same problem! Which is another reason for the surgery!
She has been breeding for a few year and is doing research on the subject as I am!

Even the vets I have seen have not been able to give me a straight answer, but mine is doing the research for me as well!
I know that genetic is a gray area and I am not too sure of where to go to get the answers I need!

Thank you all of you for the effort!


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 15 2008, 07:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690029


> Now I have a few question: this problem is hereditary, anybody can tell me if it is the male or the female or need for both of them to have the genes?[/B]





I just remembered that I have a Merck Manual for Pet Health and I thought I'd look to see what this reference had to say about cryptorchidism in dogs. There is a paragraph about the condition in the book and I've abstracted one of the sentences:

_". . . The condition has a genetic basis and can be inherited from either parent. . . ."_


I don't know if this answered your question or not. If it didn't, maybe you could clarify your question.





Joy


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I am not a breeder and know little of canine genetics. Just for the fun of it I Googled "canine genetic cryptorchidism". I actually got a nice variety of articles. I don't know if you've tried that, but there might be some answers to your question about the genetic passing of the trait. All I know is you can't show a Malt without both decended, and you wouldn't want to breed a dog who is not a qualified AKC champion.

Good luck with your research.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

This article says that cryptorchid dogs have a higher incidence of genetic defects including luxating patellas. 

http://www.2ndchance.info/cryptorchid.htm

Have your male's knees been checked? Hopefully your breeder had his parents' knees xrayed as part of their health screening prior to breeding, but you should definitely mention this to her.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Dec 16 2008, 11:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690716


> Hopefully your breeder had his parents' knees xrayed as part of their health screening prior to breeding, but you should definitely mention this to her.[/B]



The breeder doesn't seem to be familiar with genetic defects, so I doubt the knees were checked.

The breeder sent the OP here.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

You do not x-ray knees. They are palpated by a vet.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 17 2008, 10:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690837


> You do not x-ray knees. They are palpated by a vet.[/B]


Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that. :brownbag:


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Dec 17 2008, 10:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690839


> QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 17 2008, 10:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690837





> You do not x-ray knees. They are palpated by a vet.[/B]


Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that. :brownbag:
[/B][/QUOTE]
QUOTE


> The breeder doesn't seem to be familiar with genetic defects, so I doubt the knees were checked.[/B]


*No need for nastiness here!
*

My breeders are as knowledgeable about genetic defect as you might be! Mind you, I do not know you at all, so I do not know what you know about this problem! 

Do you have an answer for me? If not, please stay out of this discussion!

My breeders, like most other people here, are at a loss to answer my question! And I cannot fault them when I asked 4 vets about it and they could not give me an answer!!


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

Just a little a info - I have two dogs from what I thought was reputable breeder, I have since learned otherwise. However, my Brussels Griffon was Cryptorchid - sp? I didn't really know anything about it until later when I was on SM. 

Anyway, the breeder had our boy neutered long before we picked him up at 13 weeks of age. We weren't looking for a show dog, or a male to breed just a nice pet, we didn't pay a lot for him, but he is a truly awesome dog - we adore him. He is far from the breed standard in looks but very very healthy - and has a great temperment.

I have since seen this breeder list other puppies similar to my boy with the same issue for similar pricing so I assume they are still breeding the parents but making sure the puppies are neutered before sale and not continuing the defect. I too would be interested in knowing if the mother or the father carries this gene. 

I would not send anyone to this breeder knowing what I know now. But I do have two of the best dogs in world and I wouldn't trade either one for anything. 

Leslie


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (WoofLife @ Dec 17 2008, 03:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690950


> Just a little a info - I have two dogs from what I thought was reputable breeder, I have since learned otherwise. However, my Brussels Griffon was Cryptorchid - sp? I didn't really know anything about it until later when I was on SM.
> 
> Anyway, the breeder had our boy neutered long before we picked him up at 13 weeks of age. We weren't looking for a show dog, or a male to breed just a nice pet, we didn't pay a lot for him, but he is a truly awesome dog - we adore him. He is far from the breed standard in looks but very very healthy - and has a great temperment.
> 
> ...


I am so very happy that it worked out for you" My little puppy is the best puppy (actually, they both are the best)! And even thought I will not be breeding him, I really want to know the workings of that defect!
I even checked sites for humans! and other mammals!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

There is a research study at Cornell to find a genetic marker for cryptorchidism. According to this, both males and females can be carriers of the three genes that cause this birth defect. 

Based on the few pedigree studies in dogs and experimental studies in other
animals, testis descent in the dog is thought to be controlled by at least 3
genes, the identity of which are unknown. Recessive mutations in such genes
result in cryptorchidism. Delayed descent of the testes may be a similarly
inherited trait, as there is evidence in mice that mutations in 1 or 2 of
the genes controlling testis descent in that species can result in delayed
testis descent. It has been shown in other animals, such as pigs and goats,
that the prevalence of cryptorchidism in herds can be reduced over time by
selecting against this trait. That is, cryptorchid animals and male and
female parents of cryptorchid animals were not used as breeding stock. This
approach has not been used extensively in purebred dogs. However, if both
male and female carriers could be identified by a practical test, then
matings of carriers could be more easily avoided.


http://www.bakalo.com/cryptorchidism.htm

I hope this answers your question and you will pass the information on to your breeder. I would suggest both of you contact Dr. Vicki Meyers-Wallen for further information since none of us on SM are specialists in genetics.


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (LadysMom @ Dec 17 2008, 03:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690957


> There is a research study at Cornell to find a genetic marker for cryptorchidism. According to this, both males and females can be carriers of the three genes that cause this birth defect.
> 
> Based on the few pedigree studies in dogs and experimental studies in other
> animals, testis descent in the dog is thought to be controlled by at least 3
> ...


Thank you for your time and the effort you put in this Lady's Mom, we really do appreciate it!
My breeder is an active member here and I know that she is following this thread as anxiously as I am! :ThankYou:


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

If as you stated your breeder is an active member here and she is following this thread closely why doesn't she step up and participate in this thread. I am feeling very uncomfortable about this whole conversation and the direction it has gone and come back around too. 

Will the real breeder of this pup please stand up????

Linda

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 17 2008, 03:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690969


> QUOTE (LadysMom @ Dec 17 2008, 03:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690957





> There is a research study at Cornell to find a genetic marker for cryptorchidism. According to this, both males and females can be carriers of the three genes that cause this birth defect.
> 
> Based on the few pedigree studies in dogs and experimental studies in other
> animals, testis descent in the dog is thought to be controlled by at least 3
> ...


Thank you for your time and the effort you put in this Lady's Mom, we really do appreciate it!
My breeder is an active member here and I know that she is following this thread as anxiously as I am! :ThankYou: 
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## KandiMaltese (Mar 27, 2007)

Before the guessing games start..I would just like to say that this breeder is *NOT ME*. I would *NEVER EVER *sell my pups with open registration!  I have no idea who the breeder is, but I can definitely say it's not me.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Dec 17 2008, 04:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690981


> Before the guessing games start..I would just like to say that this breeder is *NOT ME*. I would *NEVER EVER *sell my pups with open registration!  I have no idea who the breeder is, but I can definitely say it's not me. [/B]


Not me either :thumbsup:


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Dec 17 2008, 05:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690994


> QUOTE (KandiMaltese @ Dec 17 2008, 04:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=690981





> Before the guessing games start..I would just like to say that this breeder is *NOT ME*. I would *NEVER EVER *sell my pups with open registration!  I have no idea who the breeder is, but I can definitely say it's not me. [/B]


Not me either :thumbsup:
[/B][/QUOTE]


Absolutely no doubt in anyone's minds it was either of you :thumbsup: Can't really think of anyone, come to think of it, but that 's not what matters...I don't think :blush: 

*4PUPSMOM* - I'm sorry, how many babies do you have? Please forgive me, I am trying to learn, are you concenered about this situation, because you want the little boy to breed ( is that the right way to say it if it's a male? ), but fear it may be genetic?


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

I have 2 babies! One male and a female!
I was hoping to show him! And maybe to breed him! I cannot do either!

But because he is mine, and has that genetic condition, I want to know all there is about it!


Some of the sites mentioned here, I had already visited but I wanted more info and the site that LadysMom has provided me with has helped a lot!

I will study genetics, and lines, I will find all the info I can get on any condition pertaining to this breed before I do decide whether or not I will breed!

Breeding any breed of dogs is a serious commitment. I have seen first hand what byb produce: over the last 20-30 years, all my pets have been rescues!

Both of my breeders are quite well aware of my feelings about the whole thing!! 

And neither one of them sold me a puppy without questioning and checking: was worst than when we bought our houses!

One more thing: both my contracts do states that any puppy would be sold with this clause: ABSOLUTELY NO BREEDING ALLOWED!!


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

Color me confused? :huh: Your contracts say you can't breed, but didn't you state that the breeders agreed with your breeding them? I guess I'm lost on what you are asking. It seems that many people have pointed you in directions to answer any questions you have about this issue.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (SpringHasSprung @ Dec 17 2008, 06:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=691043


> Color me confused? :huh: Your contracts say you can't breed, but didn't you state that the breeders agreed with your breeding them? I guess I'm lost on what you are asking. It seems that many people have pointed you in directions to answer any questions you have about this issue.[/B]


The contract states any puppies produced by the dogs sold to this person cannot be sold with breeding rights.


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## SpringHasSprung (May 4, 2007)

So this is for offspring of the purchased dog, but not for the purchased dog? I've just never heard of a breeder allowing their dogs to be bred to begin with. But then, I don't have alot of breeder buying experience. Thanks!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (SpringHasSprung @ Dec 17 2008, 06:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=691055


> So this is for offspring of the purchased dog, but not for the purchased dog? I've just never heard of a breeder allowing their dogs to be bred to begin with. But then, I don't have alot of breeder buying experience. Thanks![/B]


Yes, breeders do sell dogs on full registration to other breeders and to new people with a sincere interest in the breed.


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

Yes, that is what is says!
Whether it is a common clause or not, I do not know, but that is what I had to do in order to have that puppy!!
The thing is I did not mind, because _if _I do breed, I would not want just anybody to start breeding <<my puppies<< just for the _fun_ of it!


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (4pupsmom @ Dec 17 2008, 08:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=691060


> Yes, that is what is says!
> Whether it is a common clause or not, I do not know, but that is what I had to do in order to have that puppy!!
> The thing is I did not mind, because _if _I do breed, I would not want just anybody to start breeding <<my puppies<< just for the _fun_ of it![/B]


QUOTE


> Yes, breeders do sell dogs on full registration to other breeders and to new people with a sincere interest in the breed.[/B]


Thank you for this confirmation JMM!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

```
Even the vets I have seen have not been able to give me a straight answer, but mine is doing the research for me as well!
I know that genetic is a gray area and I am not too sure of where to go to get the answers I need!
```
According to veterinarians to allow a dog missing a testicle it is unethical to breed or put the testicle back into the scrotum. They are not shown how to do that procedure in Vet School. 
My question is this; where is the testicle? Is it still in the belly, in the inguinial canal or just right there at the scrotum entrance (subqutaneous)? What is the history behind him?
Cryptorchidism is passed similarly like male pattern baldness. The girl carries the gene, but the male expresses the gene (missing testicles). There are so many theories on how this is passed on, it's anyone's guess.
The article that Lady's Mom found is what they think now. It skips generations too. They have discovered that it can be managed by not breeding the male or female that produced a dog with cryptorchidism. 
How technical do you want the articles to be? I researched this over and over again. I have found very technical articles on this subject. This is one of those hush hush things breeder's don't like to talk about. http://www.cbra.org.br/pages/publicacoes/a...0pag108-120.pdf
Did you breeder send you out to the reproduction forum? 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineR...yguid=278446639
Look in the archives.
Tina


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## Vanitysmom (Jun 9, 2005)

QUOTE (Tina @ Dec 17 2008, 09:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=691075


> ```
> .  I have found very technical articles on this subject.  This is one of those hush hush things breeder's don't like to talk about.[/B][/QUOTE]
> 
> Tina, Do you think it's so hush hush, possibly because most show breeders consider these cryptorcid puppies to be pets so they are simply neutered and placed in loving pet homes ;) or is it hush hush because they know more about it than they are telling anyone else ;)
> ...


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I presume from what I've been able to find and what Lady's Mom's post says that it is something the genetic specialists are studying, like so many other things they think are genetic, but don't have answer to yet. I also saw one article saying that researcher thinks it is carried by the female as a recessive gene. 

I agree with Sharon---it is one thing that puts some lovely boys into the pet market. Since I love the boys it is nice to see some exceptional male pets. The fact that breeders don't need as many males as females anyway means more show quality boy pets.


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## 4pupsmom (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (Tina @ Dec 17 2008, 09:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=691075


> ```
> Even the vets I have seen have not been able to give me a straight answer, but mine is doing the research for me as well!
> I know that genetic is a gray area and I am not too sure of where to go to get the answers I need!
> ```
> ...


One testicle is down and as far as the other one,nobody has been able to find it.

_This is one of those hush hush things breeder's don't like to talk about. _

This is beyond me that breeders do not want to talk genetics! 

And yes my breeder has suggested this site as a _must read_!!

Thank you for your work. You obliviously do not believe in that code of silence thing! Thanks again!


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

```
Tina, Do you think it's so hush hush, possibly because most show breeders consider these cryptorcid puppies to be pets so they are simply neutered and placed in loving pet homes;) or is it hush hush because they know more about it than they are telling anyone else;)
```
Sharon, I think it's both. I think some lines have more cryptorchid's than other's. No one wants a reputation of producing genetic problems in their breeding program. Breeder's can be really hard on each other. The only way to manage it is to cull both the male and the female or know more about what is behind the female. If she carries the genes for cryptorchidism then she will pass this onto her puppies, rather they be male or female. Again, the male expresses the trait, and the female passes it as recessive unknowingly.
I did and still am following a cryptorchid male's progeny. I have followed the puppies he had and are still in his lines. There has yet to be a cryptorchid produced and it is 3 generations that I have been following this. He had both testes in the scrotum. At 8 months he pulled the left one up. The testicle got tangled in the vas deference tube and could not descend. Both testes were the same size. Usually a true cryptorchid the teste that gets pulled up is smaller than the other, but not in his case. I am letting the hat out of the bag and saying more than I should because now everyone will assume I have this in my lines. I don't. My curiousity was/is if the male had both testes down to begin with, is he really a true cryptorchid? No one even looks at this angle. 
It is the scientist in me. I used to work for a Meat Animal Research Center in Clay Center, Nebraska. I collected data for the experiments that were going on. I used to ask lots of questions on why they were doing what they were doing. It was fascinating. 
It is very disappointing to have the male pull up a testicle when you have your heart set on showing him and possibly using him for breeding. 
Tina


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