# Are they puppy mills?



## Harleysmom (Jan 26, 2005)

I read here the USDA link for breeders-are these for sure puppy mills? I found my breeders name among them! My puppy is healthy & very loving.But it sure upsets me.


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

They are technically puppy mills. My dogs breeder is on the list, too. Some are better then others but they are all still technically puppy mills.


----------



## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

Since pet stores get their stock from puppymills, this is pertinent to this thread: I read the Wall Street Journal daily and in their business for sale ads Petland is always running an ad for franchises for sale. So we have a large corporate retail outlet buying from a large corporate wholesale broker (like Hunte corp) being supported by puppymills all over the U.S. which are being supported by frail, abused, little furbabies just like ours! 

Everytime I see that Petland ad I think of a little Pico somewhere off of whose tiny body many people are getting rich!









I didn't mean that last sentence of the first paragraph to indicate OUR furbabies were abused!


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

As Lexi's mom says, some are worse then others, but all are so-called puppy mills.

It is upsetting to find this out, though, isn't it? You are not alone, though. And it's good to know that your pup came from a puppy mill so you can be on the alert for any genetic diseases he may be carrying. Also, puppy mill puppies, because they are usually raised in cages like livestock and don't get much human contact and are taken from their mothers too soon, have a tendency to have certain behavioral issues you should watch out for. They can be hard to socialize so it's extra important to get him used to strange people, surroundings and other dogs early on. They can also be hard to housebreak so you will have to be extra diligent and patient.

Another thing to be aware of is that when they mature (between 1 year and 18 months) many start showing aggressive tendencies like growling or even biting. It is very important you watch for signs of this while he is still a puppy and nip them in the bud, perhaps with the help of a trainer, before little problems become big ones.

My Lady is a rescue, but she is from a pet shop/puppy store. She has a ton of health issues (epileptic, diabetic, heart murmur), but is the sweetest little thing. Now that you know about the list and puppy mills, do what I do and try to educate as many people as possible about pet shops and puppy mills.


----------



## Harleysmom (Jan 26, 2005)

well,Harley does growl while playing and is kinda aggressive. But I just assumed it was the playful puppy in him,not so?


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

There is a difference between play growling and really growling. Trust me, you'll know when he means it. I'm having problems with this with Lexi right now. She has decided in the last month or so to start growling and sometimes biting me when I put her in her pen. Play growling is ok. Real growling is unacceptable most times.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Harleysmom_@Feb 11 2005, 10:23 AM
> *well,Harley does growl while playing and is kinda aggressive. But I just assumed it was the playful puppy in him,not so?
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=34763*


[/QUOTE]

How old is Harley now?

Puppies learn bite inhibition from their mothers between ages 6-10 weeks. Have you ever seen a momma dog discipline a puppy who is fresh enough to bite her? It's a lesson they don't soon forget!

Unfortunately, puppy mill puppies leave their mom and littermates at 6 weeks (often earlier because papers are falsified) so they miss this and other important lessons on pack behavior.

Human moms then have to teach them what they didn't learn from their real moms. Here are some good tips:

No painful bites. 90% of puppies will stop if you give a high-pitched squeal or yelp. If they stop, praise and reinforce by continuing the game. The other 10 % and puppies who are tired or over-stimulated will escalate their behavior instead of stopping. This requires you to confine the puppy or end the game. Remove all attention. It does not require any added aversive -- yelling, popping the nose or chin, shoving your hand down his throat, or spraying with water. If you end the game, you need to be able to get away from the puppy with as little fuss or attention as possible. Even negative attention is attention. It's often helpful to have the puppy tethered, so you can simply move back out of his reach. Or, have him in a confined area and simply stand up and move past a boundary. Because the getting up and moving is tough to do at the instant the undesired behavior occurs, consider using a hand signal that will always mean, "You're a jerk. Fun's over." Use it consistently when poor behavior occurs and you're going to withdraw attention. I am well aware that puppy teeth hurt, and that this step can be overwhelming. Do it when you can, and at other times redirect, redirect, redirect. Puppy mouthing is a 100% natural dog behavior. It's not dominant. It's not meanness. It's a puppy being a puppy. When it's too much, either redirect or end the game. Aversives are confusing, unfair, and unnecessary. 
When I say stop, you stop. Teach cues for "Take it," "Leave it," and "Drop it." You need to be able to both start and stop the game on your terms. 
You may never touch a human with your muzzle unless invited. Basically, this is just taking stage three to complete stimulus control.
None of these stages require anything more aversive than time outs or withdrawal of attention. When teaching these behaviors, put your hands in your dog's mouth all the time. Get him used to your being there. Make sure you can open his mouth and examine his teeth -- the vet is going to do that, and you should prepare your dog. Play mouth games. Teach your dog never to touch an object in your hand unless invited. Make sure he knows that when he is invited, he is never to bite both the toy and your hand at the same time.


----------



## Harleysmom (Jan 26, 2005)

Harley is 5 mths. He will sit on my lap all day & give kisses if I'd let him. I think he is play growling. When he meets strangers he is friendly and licks them. Most of the time he is friendly with other dogs & very playful. I will just be sick if he has alot of genetic health problems. Thanks for all the good advice. I will be practicing.


----------



## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

As Kristi says, it's easy to tell the difference between play growling and serious growling. If you are playing tug with a toy, it's natural for Harley to shake it and growl. If he is chewing on a toy and you approach him and try to take it away and he growls at you, he is serious.

Hopefully he won't have any genetic diseases, but the chances are much much higher with puppy mill puppies. I am assuming that you will have him neutered pretty soon since he is 5 months old. Make sure your vet does a pre op blood panel. That will screen for any liver abnormalities which are so common in Maltese, among other things. Luxating patellas common in Maltese so have your vet check for those, also.

Then cross your fingers! Many genetic diseases don't show up for many years, like with my Lady. She was diagnosed with epilepsy at age 4 and diabetes at age 6. Except for a slight grade 1 heart murmur (the mildest), she was perfectly healthy until then. 

It's a good idea with any Maltese, but especially a puppy mill pup, to have an account set up for unexpected veterinary expenses. A friend said she started putting a little money away when her Malt was a puppy and it paid for 2 knee surgeries several year later! You can't count on pet insurance as most don't cover genetic illnesses.


----------



## Deanne3899 (Jan 8, 2005)

Ladysmom,
You're such a wonderful resource to this board!








Deanne


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Deanne3899_@Feb 11 2005, 01:56 PM
> *Ladysmom,
> You're such a wonderful resource to this board!
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I heartily agree!!


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by LadysMom+Feb 11 2005, 10:40 AM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How old is Harley now?

Puppies learn bite inhibition from their mothers between ages 6-10 weeks. Have you ever seen a momma dog discipline a puppy who is fresh enough to bite her? It's a lesson they don't soon forget!

Unfortunately, puppy mill puppies leave their mom and littermates at 6 weeks (often earlier because papers are falsified) so they miss this and other important lessons on pack behavior.

Human moms then have to teach them what they didn't learn from their real moms. Here are some good tips:

No painful bites. 90% of puppies will stop if you give a high-pitched squeal or yelp. If they stop, praise and reinforce by continuing the game. The other 10 % and puppies who are tired or over-stimulated will escalate their behavior instead of stopping. This requires you to confine the puppy or end the game. Remove all attention. It does not require any added aversive -- yelling, popping the nose or chin, shoving your hand down his throat, or spraying with water. If you end the game, you need to be able to get away from the puppy with as little fuss or attention as possible. Even negative attention is attention. It's often helpful to have the puppy tethered, so you can simply move back out of his reach. Or, have him in a confined area and simply stand up and move past a boundary. Because the getting up and moving is tough to do at the instant the undesired behavior occurs, consider using a hand signal that will always mean, "You're a jerk. Fun's over." Use it consistently when poor behavior occurs and you're going to withdraw attention. I am well aware that puppy teeth hurt, and that this step can be overwhelming. Do it when you can, and at other times redirect, redirect, redirect. Puppy mouthing is a 100% natural dog behavior. It's not dominant. It's not meanness. It's a puppy being a puppy. When it's too much, either redirect or end the game. Aversives are confusing, unfair, and unnecessary. 
When I say stop, you stop. Teach cues for "Take it," "Leave it," and "Drop it." You need to be able to both start and stop the game on your terms. 
You may never touch a human with your muzzle unless invited. Basically, this is just taking stage three to complete stimulus control.
None of these stages require anything more aversive than time outs or withdrawal of attention. When teaching these behaviors, put your hands in your dog's mouth all the time. Get him used to your being there. Make sure you can open his mouth and examine his teeth -- the vet is going to do that, and you should prepare your dog. Play mouth games. Teach your dog never to touch an object in your hand unless invited. Make sure he knows that when he is invited, he is never to bite both the toy and your hand at the same time.
<div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=34770
[/B][/QUOTE]
"That is a well-written article. I especially like this advice: "It does not require any added aversive -- yelling, popping the nose or chin, shoving your hand down his throat, or spraying with water." I hear of so many people, not necessarily on SM, but in general, hitting or "popping" their dogs. It just breaks my heart..... I believe this was considered OK many years ago but is now out of favor..... Glad of that!


----------



## Zoes mom (Jan 22, 2005)

Ok I've just leaned alot, my puppy is 13 wks and when she plays she loves to bite not very hard but the teeth are sharp not making it much fun, so I'm going to try the things in this article and see if it makes a difference. 

thanks


----------



## stini (Feb 26, 2005)

What is the actual URL for the USDA puppy mill list? 

Every time I try to access it, I get a







404 message.


----------



## LexiAndNikkisMom (Apr 13, 2004)

the USDA list is a pdf file so you need Adobe Reader to see it. You can download it for free from Adobe for free.

The link to the USDA list is USDA List.


----------



## Sisses Momma (Dec 29, 2004)

We have a "no bite" rule at our house. Sisse was with her littermates until she was 12 weeks, but we still saw signs of aggression in her when she first came home. I do believe it was just play, but we never let it get out of hand. If she bit us she was removed from the appendage she was attatched to and given a toy instead, over and over again. She is really good about it now, but every now and then we remind her that "puppies that bite play alone". She usually gets the idea when we yell "Ouch" and put her away from us.


----------



## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

> "That is a well-written article. I especially like this advice: "It does not require any added aversive -- yelling, popping the nose or chin, shoving your hand down his throat, or spraying with water." I hear of so many people, not necessarily on SM, but in general, hitting or "popping" their dogs. It just breaks my heart..... I believe this was considered OK many years ago but is now out of favor..... Glad of that![/B]


I don't know about this "shoving your hand down his throat, " I know if someone did that to me I would bite them for sure.

When chelsey was younger and my husband was playing with her.. I would here him say ahoch she bit me. I was like yea what ever, If she really bit you . You would say " AHHHHHH SHE BIT ME!!!. 

Chelsey did nip when she had her very sharp baby theeth. I would say ahoch and pull my hand away then touch her on her nose and say no bite. 
The one that was scary is when she would be sitting in my lap an I would feel her whole mouth over my rist. She never bit down but I could never figure out what she was doing. Then I caught her one day in actions. She was just yawning and my hand was right in front of her mouth. Strang puppy.


----------



## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Chelsey_@Mar 21 2005, 05:16 PM
> *I don't know about this "shoving your hand down his throat, "  I know if someone did that to me I would bite them for sure.*


I agree... Back in 1990 when I got my first Maltese, I had a terrible time with the biting.... I had a trainer come to the house and one of the things she told me to do was to put my finger in the dog's throat and gag her.... YUK!! There was no way I was going to do that!


----------



## Chelsey (Dec 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kallie/Catcher's Mom+Mar 21 2005, 06:30 PM-->
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/B][/QUOTE]

yep , that is so crule and it must hurt too.


----------



## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

OMG!! I found our breeder on that list also......it bothred me so. But I have to say that pacino is well socialized, doesn't bark at people and loves attention. Thank God he is healthy and happy.

He does like to nip though, espeically when he is playing and yes, it hurts. But I went to the store and bought that bitter apple spray and he is a changed fur baby! I used it today for the first time and it makes quite a bit of difference.

He also, like I said, does not bark at other dogs, all he wants to do is play with them. He also does not bark at people....but he does bark when he wants attention which is 90% of the time!!

I tried the water spray, he loved it!! So naturally that didn't work. So 2 days ago I put some coins in a plastic bottle and I shook it and said loudly "NO BARK"....well he hasn't barked since then!! He barked at me once and I just said sternly "NO BARK" and he stopped!!

We watched a special the other night on puppy mills and it broke my heart...how people can be so cruel for the almighty dollar.......sad.

Thank God our fur babies have us!!

Marie & Pacino


----------

