# DELCOST dog wins the breed :)



## Cosy

Ch. Delcost Marc by Design won the breed. He's out of Divine breeding on both sides.
I'm sure the Stanburys as well as Gillies are very happy! 
We wish them lots of luck this evening!!!
:cheer: :cheer:


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## Missy&Maggie

Thanks for sharing, Brit!!!  I'll definitely be watching and cheering for them!!! :cheer: :dothewave:


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## SicilianRose

Woooooooooo Hoooooooooooooooo........ I hope they win tonight. arty:


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## Lacie's Mom

And several dogs were absent -- 

Pat Keen did NOT show Glory
Bonnie Palmer's bitch was absent
Both Ta-Jon's dogs were absent

Tonia's bitch went best of opposite sex and her dog went Award of Merit.


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## Cosy

Handlers learn what each judge likes. Chances are the judge today wasn't favored
by those who didn't show. Of course, there is always politics too


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## KAG

Thanks for the update, Brit.
xoxoxoxo


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## Lacie's Mom

Brit -- I know -- Keke (Kahn) is an old time Lhasa Breeder and, for example, she would never have put up Pat Keen. LOL


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## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 12:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723421


> Brit -- I know -- Keke (Kahn) is an old time Lhasa Breeder and, for example, she would never have put up Pat Keen. LOL[/B]


I don't want to know what you mean by this comment, just suggesting you might what to say those type things in a more private format.


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## Cosy

Well, these are all top winning dogs/bitches and no one likes to lose. Frankly, NYC February
weather and toting dog equpiment and dogs is not an easy feat. Sometimes people just decide
it's not worth the trip. I think Keke Kahn is a well respected judge. She's been around the 
dog world a long time.


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## bellaratamaltese

Oh that is so exciting! Chrissy, you better tell Jazz his daddy won Best of Breed at Westminster!


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## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 12:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723428


> Oh that is so exciting! Chrissy, you better tell Jazz his daddy won Best of Breed at Westminster![/B]


Hey Shoni your Dad's brother just won BOB at Westminster!


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## Cosy

That little pic taken today is so precious. What a pretty little maltese he is.


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 02:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723430


> That little pic taken today is so precious. What a pretty little maltese he is.[/B]



i think Pat Keen was showing Marcus, wasn't she?


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## Cosy

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 03:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723432


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 02:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723430





> That little pic taken today is so precious. What a pretty little maltese he is.[/B]



i think Pat Keen was showing Marcus, wasn't she?
[/B][/QUOTE]


She might have been! LOL I guess we'll see on the vids.


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## sassy's mommy

I am so excited about the show tonight. Can't wait to see the Malt!

I think it is so awful that the show world is so subjective to the politics. It should not be because one judge doesn't like this or that and another does. It makes me wonder who treated the judge to the best dinner and wine?


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## Cosy

LOL I don't think it has to do with dinner and wine, but many of the dogs are advertised and
campaigned heavily, shown to these judges who like them over and over. The dogs are
known by the judge by the time of the big show. Some judges like this over that or feel
the dog showed better than the others but doesn't have a great gait. It's all about the day.
Politics can enter into it sometimes and sometimes not. There is no perfect dog - so in light
of that there is always a chance one may win over another.


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## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 01:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723432


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 02:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723430





> That little pic taken today is so precious. What a pretty little maltese he is.[/B]



i think Pat Keen was showing Marcus, wasn't she?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Stacy is Delcost by Design's call name also Marcus? That is Shoni's daddy's (Ch Divine's Nuttin But Remarcable) call name.


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## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 04:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723453


> LOL I don't think it has to do with dinner and wine, but many of the dogs are advertised and
> campaigned heavily, shown to these judges who like them over and over. The dogs are
> known by the judge by the time of the big show. Some judges like this over that or feel
> the dog showed better than the others but doesn't have a great gait. It's all about the day.
> Politics can enter into it sometimes and sometimes not. There is no perfect dog - so in light
> of that there is always a chance one may win over another.[/B]



This is true Brit, but aren't there also times when certain handlers do better than others? And I don't mean the way the handler is handling the dog that day. I mean personality takes a roll. Very sad!


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Feb 10 2009, 03:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723454


> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 01:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723432





> QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 02:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723430





> That little pic taken today is so precious. What a pretty little maltese he is.[/B]



i think Pat Keen was showing Marcus, wasn't she?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Stacy is Delcost by Design's call name also Marcus? That is Shoni's daddy's (Ch Divine's Nuttin But Remarcable) call name.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, his call name is Marcus. he's a beautiful boy and his owner Christine is the nicest lady. I'm so thrilled for them!


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## Cosy

QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 10 2009, 03:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723455


> QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 04:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723453





> LOL I don't think it has to do with dinner and wine, but many of the dogs are advertised and
> campaigned heavily, shown to these judges who like them over and over. The dogs are
> known by the judge by the time of the big show. Some judges like this over that or feel
> the dog showed better than the others but doesn't have a great gait. It's all about the day.
> Politics can enter into it sometimes and sometimes not. There is no perfect dog - so in light
> of that there is always a chance one may win over another.[/B]



This is true Brit, but aren't there also times when certain handlers do better than others? And I don't mean the way the handler is handling the dog that day. I mean personality takes a roll. Very sad!
[/B][/QUOTE]


I don't think personality has anything to do with it. Politics can be based on things like advertising, 
being instrumental in getting judges judging assignments, etc. 
I've seen some handlers throw big hissy fits in the ring when they didn't win, but the judge put
up a dog they showed later. If personality mattered I think that wouldn't happen. LOL


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## bonniesmom

QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 10 2009, 04:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723449


> I am so excited about the show tonight. Can't wait to see the Malt[/B]


Me too, even though we'll only see abut 20 seconds or so! But the Breed Judging video should be up some time soon, so at least we can watch
that :bysmilie:


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## aggiemom99

I know all the malts that won are beautiful. :wub: I can't wait to see video and will be cheering for the maltese to win in group and BIS :chili: :chili: ...I know all those involved in producing these beautiful dogs are proud.


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## aggiemom99

I am not a show person and have a question. The dogs listed: Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship and Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship At Delcost....These are two different dogs? :huh: Is that right? probably a son of Marc and added the "at Delcost?"

Just curious as Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship is grandfather to my girls and a few others here on SM. 

Thanks and sorry to show my ignorance... :brownbag:


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (aggiemom99 @ Feb 10 2009, 04:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723482


> I am not a show person and have a question. The dogs listed: Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship and Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship At Delcost....These are two different dogs? :huh: Is that right? probably a son of Marc and added the "at Delcost?"
> 
> Just curious as Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship is grandfather to my girls and a few others here on SM.
> 
> Thanks and sorry to show my ignorance... :brownbag:[/B]


That is the same dog. When Marc went to Scotland, his new owner added at Delcost to his name. Marcus is Marc's son.


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## jazzmalt

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 01:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723453


> The dogs are known by the judge by the time of the big show. Some judges like this over that or feel
> the dog showed better than the others but doesn't have a great gait. It's all about the day.
> Politics can enter into it sometimes and sometimes not. There is no perfect dog - so in light
> of that there is always a chance one may win over another.[/B]


I know nothing about showing Maltese, but I've mentioned before that I used to breed and show Scottish Terriers several decades ago. Speaking only of that experience, I can say that the most common reason a Scottie entry was pulled was that the exhibitor knew their dog was unlikely to win under the particular judge at that show. More often than not it was because of something the exhibitor knew the judge preferred to see in the dogs he/she judged, as Brit said above. Most often, it was just a specific prejudice of the particular judge, and not due to any fault of the dog when compared to the AKC standard. 

With Scotties, the particular judge prejudices I saw most often were...

The judge preferred a smaller dog. The standard says the Scottie "should" weigh between 18-22 pounds. It doesn't say they "must" weigh that, and there is no disqualification based on size. Some judges were known to always put up a dog that was below what the standard said they "should" weigh.

The judge preferred a longer head. The standard says the Scottie's head should be long in proportion to the overall length and size of the dog. It doesn't say how much longer it should be, and some judges were known to prefer what many breeders called an "extreme head". 

The judge preferred a coat length that was sweeping the floor, more like a Maltese show coat. The standard simply says the Scottie dog should have enough coat so that the texture and density may be determined. 

Needless to say, if you knew a judge had one of the above idiosyncracies, and your dog didn't match the judge's particular idiosyncracy, you'd forfeit your entry fee and pull your entry rather than have your dog get "dumped" by a judge. 

I'd be very interested to learn the reasons Ta-Jon, Richelieu and Angel Maltese pulled their entries. It's interesting to learn things about how a particular breed is judged.


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## KAG

Is it an unwritten rule that Maltese wear black bows in the ring? Almost like a little black dress, everyone looks good in? I know with Yorkies, the color is red. To be told I couldn't or shouldn't use a color I loved would probably drive me crazy!
xoxoxoxo


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## Starsmom

He is one B.E.A.U.T.I.F.U.L. little furball!!! Hope he makes the final round!


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## Lacie's Mom

Guys -- sorry if you thought I was slamming Pat Keen. It did come out that way, and I didn't mean it to. I was mostly trying to use her as an example. She and Keke Kahn, the judge, started in Lhasas a long time ago and Pat knows the style of dog that Keke prefers -- not only in Lhasa but in Maltese and other breeds too. I've know Keke forever too and consider her a good friend, but my style of Lhasa and hers weren't the same and I seldom, if ever showed to her.

So it was nothing against Pat, just that she knows what Keke will like and not like.

I just wanted to clear the air on that.


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## jazzmalt

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 03:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723514


> Pat knows the style of dog that Keke prefers -- not only in Lhasa but in Maltese and other breeds too.[/B]


Can you tell us anything about the style of Maltese this judge prefers? I'd really like to know that before seeing the breed video. Thanks!


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## KAG

QUOTE (KAG @ Feb 10 2009, 05:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723493


> Is it an unwritten rule that Maltese wear black bows in the ring? Almost like a little black dress, everyone looks good in? I know with Yorkies, the color is red. To be told I couldn't or shouldn't use a color I loved would probably drive me crazy!
> xoxoxoxo[/B]




Thanks for answering my question.


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## aggiemom99

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 04:37 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723484


> QUOTE (aggiemom99 @ Feb 10 2009, 04:30 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723482





> I am not a show person and have a question. The dogs listed: Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship and Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship At Delcost....These are two different dogs? :huh: Is that right? probably a son of Marc and added the "at Delcost?"
> 
> Just curious as Ch Divine's Marc Of Friendship is grandfather to my girls and a few others here on SM.
> 
> Thanks and sorry to show my ignorance... :brownbag:[/B]


That is the same dog. When Marc went to Scotland, his new owner added at Delcost to his name. Marcus is Marc's son.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Stacy :brownbag: I understand. I know sometimes names are added for different dogs. Well, I'll be....Marc is in the lines off all that won.

BOB Marcus---son
BOS Gabby---grandfather
AOM Smarty---son

Marc is a great producer. I think all of this is interesting. I'll be watching tonight...


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## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (KAG @ Feb 10 2009, 06:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723543


> QUOTE (KAG @ Feb 10 2009, 05:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723493





> Is it an unwritten rule that Maltese wear black bows in the ring? Almost like a little black dress, everyone looks good in? I know with Yorkies, the color is red. To be told I couldn't or shouldn't use a color I loved would probably drive me crazy!
> xoxoxoxo[/B]




Thanks for answering my question.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Kerry it isn't written in stone so to speak for Malts to wear black. I think the handlers use black or another very dark color because it compliments the black points. I may be wrong but that is what I think. Don't remember where I came up with the info, sorry.

As for Yorkies, I thought the color was like a dark orange like a red/orange. But I might be wrong about that too. 




As for the rest of the show judge thing.........I guess what everyone is saying in a round about way......it is all subjective. Not necessarily the dog that is the "best" representation of the breed, but what the judge prefers. Very sad!


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 10 2009, 06:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723559


> QUOTE (KAG @ Feb 10 2009, 06:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723543





> QUOTE (KAG @ Feb 10 2009, 05:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723493





> Is it an unwritten rule that Maltese wear black bows in the ring? Almost like a little black dress, everyone looks good in? I know with Yorkies, the color is red. To be told I couldn't or shouldn't use a color I loved would probably drive me crazy!
> xoxoxoxo[/B]




Thanks for answering my question.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Kerry it isn't written in stone so to speak for Malts to wear black. I think the handlers use black or another very dark color because it compliments the black points. I may be wrong but that is what I think. Don't remember where I came up with the info, sorry.

As for Yorkies, I thought the color was like a dark orange like a red/orange. But I might be wrong about that too. 




As for the rest of the show judge thing.........I guess what everyone is saying in a round about way......it is all subjective. Not necessarily the dog that is the "best" representation of the breed, but what the judge prefers. Very sad!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, I don't really find it sad at all. Everyone has different interpretations and preferences and while some judges are political, not all of them are. When you have of the most beautiful specimens of maltese in one ring, I would think you would really have to fall back on your interpretation of the breed standard and what your personal preferance is as a judge, otherwise how else can you pick your top dog? It's what makes the sport so intriguing, especially since there is no such thing as a perfect maltese. And what I think of as close to perfect is not what somebody else does. 

I've tried using different colored topknot bows in the ring and I have to say - black just looks the best.


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## Cosy

Pat, I don't think it's sad, really. Everyone has their own opinion and what they see may
be perceived differently by another. Granted there are some judges that you wonder 
how they can be, but for the most part, judges who study the breeds know what they
are doing. I think one thing some of us forget is in maltese it isn't all about the grooming.
It is also about movement we cannot see under all that coat and musculature, soundness,
bite and showmanship. We only see one part of it...the beauty. We don't even see, from
the camera's eye, necessarily the same movement the judge may see.

If judging wasn't mostly on the up and up there would be no use for dog shows.

What's more in jeopardy is the conscientiousness of the breeder and their ethics.
Now that's another can of worms. lol

Oh, and black bows do compliment the pigment, yes.
With yorkies they use orange or red to compliment the gold hair. Sometimes you will see
turquoise to contrast the gold that may be a little pale.


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 04:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723514


> Guys -- sorry if you thought I was slamming Pat Keen. It did come out that way, and I didn't mean it to. I was mostly trying to use her as an example. She and Keke Kahn, the judge, started in Lhasas a long time ago and Pat knows the style of dog that Keke prefers -- not only in Lhasa but in Maltese and other breeds too. I've know Keke forever too and consider her a good friend, but my style of Lhasa and hers weren't the same and I seldom, if ever showed to her.
> 
> So it was nothing against Pat, just that she knows what Keke will like and not like.
> 
> I just wanted to clear the air on that.[/B]



I have to admit, I took it as you were being negative towards Pat in a public forum - but it didn't really make sense since Pat was handling Marcus when he went BOB! Thank you for clarifying it!


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## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 07:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723564


> QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 10 2009, 06:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723559





> QUOTE (KAG @ Feb 10 2009, 06:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723543





> QUOTE (KAG @ Feb 10 2009, 05:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723493





> Is it an unwritten rule that Maltese wear black bows in the ring? Almost like a little black dress, everyone looks good in? I know with Yorkies, the color is red. To be told I couldn't or shouldn't use a color I loved would probably drive me crazy!
> xoxoxoxo[/B]




Thanks for answering my question.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Kerry it isn't written in stone so to speak for Malts to wear black. I think the handlers use black or another very dark color because it compliments the black points. I may be wrong but that is what I think. Don't remember where I came up with the info, sorry.

As for Yorkies, I thought the color was like a dark orange like a red/orange. But I might be wrong about that too. 




As for the rest of the show judge thing.........I guess what everyone is saying in a round about way......it is all subjective. Not necessarily the dog that is the "best" representation of the breed, but what the judge prefers. Very sad!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, I don't really find it sad at all. Everyone has different interpretations and preferences and while some judges are political, not all of them are. When you have of the most beautiful specimens of maltese in one ring, I would think you would really have to fall back on your interpretation of the breed standard and what your personal preferance is as a judge, otherwise how else can you pick your top dog? It's what makes the sport so intriguing, especially since there is no such thing as a perfect maltese. And what I think of as close to perfect is not what somebody else does. 

I've tried using different colored topknot bows in the ring and I have to say - black just looks the best.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Stacy, this is what I am saying....it is all subjective and simply an opinion of a judge. It doesn't necessarily mean that the particular dog that wins is "the best" representation. It is an opinion of that particular judge. 

This being said, I don't watch the big shows because I think what I am seeing is necessarily the best of the best. I watch because I enjoy seeing all of the beautiful breeds being represented.


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## 08chrissy08

I'll be darned, Marcus is Shoni's daddy? Shoni is half brother to my Jazz!


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (08chrissy08 @ Feb 10 2009, 06:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723577


> I'll be darned, Marcus is Shoni's daddy? Shoni is half brother to my Jazz![/B]


That's a different Marcus that is Shoni's dad!

See? I told you Jazz' dad was something special!

And WHY do they have the 2008 maltese video linked up for 2009? It's cruel, I'm telling you!


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## Maidto2Maltese

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 07:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723580


> And WHY do they have the 2008 maltese video linked up for 2009? It's cruel, I'm telling you![/B]



Yes it is cruel!!! I've been checking all day and got so excited to see the Maltese clip finally up ....only to find it's last years! :smmadder:


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## KAG

Thank you, Pat. Thank you, Stacy. Thank you, Brit. Personally, I think Maltese look gorgeous in any color, but, black makes sense. I love turquoise on Yorkies!
xoxoxo


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## k/c mom

Maybe I missed it but has anyone posted the time and channel for the Westminster? I have no clue and would love to watch it. Thanks!!


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 07:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723586


> Maybe I missed it but has anyone posted the time and channel for the Westminster? I have no clue and would love to watch it. Thanks!![/B]


It's on at 8-11pm on USA. You can check their website for the broadcasting schedule.


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## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 07:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723571


> Pat, I don't think it's sad, really. Everyone has their own opinion and what they see may
> be perceived differently by another. Granted there are some judges that you wonder
> how they can be, but for the most part, judges who study the breeds know what they
> are doing. I think one thing some of us forget is in maltese it isn't all about the grooming.
> It is also about movement we cannot see under all that coat and musculature, soundness,
> bite and showmanship. We only see one part of it...the beauty. We don't even see, from
> the camera's eye, necessarily the same movement the judge may see.
> 
> If judging wasn't mostly on the up and up there would be no use for dog shows.
> 
> What's more in jeopardy is the conscientiousness of the breeder and their ethics.
> Now that's another can of worms. lol
> 
> Oh, and black bows do compliment the pigment, yes.
> With yorkies they use orange or red to compliment the gold hair. Sometimes you will see
> turquoise to contrast the gold that may be a little pale.[/B]


Brit I understand all of that, but it is still subjective to a great extent. How many times have we seen shows and the dogs in the final round for BIS are all the best available. Then they announce that the judge was a long time breeder of whichever breed. Guess what....that breed wins.  

P.S. I am not speaking just of Maltese. Actually when I began the conversation back and forth I was speaking of show dogs in general.


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## jude'n'jools

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 11 2009, 12:36 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723580


> QUOTE (08chrissy08 @ Feb 10 2009, 06:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723577





> I'll be darned, Marcus is Shoni's daddy? Shoni is half brother to my Jazz![/B]



See? I told you Jazz' dad was something special!

[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with Stacy, Marcus is something special, to get your hands on this dog, to watch him move.... beautiful!!

Congrats to Christine & Pat for her handling!


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## jazzmalt

QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 10 2009, 04:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723576


> this is what I am saying....it is all subjective and simply an opinion of a judge. It doesn't necessarily mean that the particular dog that wins is "the best" representation. It is an opinion of that particular judge.[/B]


By the time a particular Maltese has achieved the status of being Best of Breed at Westminster, it has been judged by several dozen different judges in several dozen different shows to be the Best of Breed compared to hundreds of other Maltese. The dog will have been judged (again by many different judges) to be the best toy dog in several different shows, the best dog in the whole show at least a few times, as well as the best dog on multiple continents in many cases. It all adds up to an individual dog having been judged and found to most closely match its own breed standard when compared to thousands of other dogs over a period of time. All the subjectivity of individual judges will have been balanced out, and in the end the dog has earned the right to be known as one of the best representations of the Maltese breed one can find. At least that's my opinion.


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## Cosy

I just saw the video. I guess there was a judge change as Ed Bivins was the judge.
He's a stickler for pigment and checks every foot. 
They were all lovely to watch.
http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=217188


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## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (Jazzmalt @ Feb 10 2009, 08:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723600


> QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 10 2009, 04:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723576





> this is what I am saying....it is all subjective and simply an opinion of a judge. It doesn't necessarily mean that the particular dog that wins is "the best" representation. It is an opinion of that particular judge.[/B]


By the time a particular Maltese has achieved the status of being Best of Breed at Westminster, it has been judged by several dozen different judges in several dozen different shows to be the Best of Breed compared to hundreds of other Maltese. The dog will have been judged (again by many different judges) to be the best toy dog in several different shows, the best dog in the whole show at least a few times, as well as the best dog on multiple continents in many cases. It all adds up to an individual dog having been judged and found to most closely match its own breed standard when compared to thousands of other dogs over a period of time. All the subjectivity of individual judges will have been balanced out, and in the end the dog has earned the right to be known as one of the best representations of the Maltese breed one can find. At least that's my opinion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I completely understand everything you have said, and not to be rude, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the original conversation. I think some of us are talking about apples and some are talking about oranges. What we are talking about are the groups in general.

OK, time for the show...gotta go. Hope this didn't sound rude, I didn't mean it that way.


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## k/c mom

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 07:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723592


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 07:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723586





> Maybe I missed it but has anyone posted the time and channel for the Westminster? I have no clue and would love to watch it. Thanks!![/B]


It's on at 8-11pm on USA. You can check their website for the broadcasting schedule.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yea! Thanks!!! I never would have found it!! Haven't seen that channel before but I've got it on now!!!


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## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 10 2009, 07:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723604


> I just saw the video. I guess there was a judge change as Ed Bivins was the judge.
> He's a stickler for pigment and checks every foot.
> They were all lovely to watch.
> http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=217188[/B]


You saw the 2009 video? When I click on the link, all I see is the 2008! Pat won last year with Ch Richeleui's Undeniable but when I first started watching it, I quickly figured out it wsn't the right video when I saw Tammy Simon showing. 

Can you link me to 2009?


----------



## SicilianRose

Did they already show the toy breed??? :huh: I hope I did not miss anything. Right now I have it on and it is on the Retrievers.


----------



## jude'n'jools

Here's the 2009 one Stacy http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/pla...videoid=1008023


----------



## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (jude'n'jools @ Feb 10 2009, 08:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723616


> Here's the 2009 one Stacy http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/pla...videoid=1008023[/B]


Thank you!!!


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 08:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723609


> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 07:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723592





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 07:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723586





> Maybe I missed it but has anyone posted the time and channel for the Westminster? I have no clue and would love to watch it. Thanks!![/B]


It's on at 8-11pm on USA. You can check their website for the broadcasting schedule.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yea! Thanks!!! I never would have found it!! Haven't seen that channel before but I've got it on now!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]


LOL ~ I thought she meant it was on in the "USA" at 8PM. I thought, hellooo, we know that, but which station ~ :HistericalSmiley:


----------



## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Feb 10 2009, 08:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723620


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 08:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723609





> QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 07:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723592





> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Feb 10 2009, 07:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723586





> Maybe I missed it but has anyone posted the time and channel for the Westminster? I have no clue and would love to watch it. Thanks!![/B]


It's on at 8-11pm on USA. You can check their website for the broadcasting schedule.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yea! Thanks!!! I never would have found it!! Haven't seen that channel before but I've got it on now!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]


LOL ~ I thought she meant it was on in the "USA" at 8PM. I thought, hellooo, we know that, but which station ~ :HistericalSmiley: 
[/B][/QUOTE]

:HistericalSmiley:


----------



## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (jude'n'jools @ Feb 10 2009, 07:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723616


> Here's the 2009 one Stacy http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/pla...videoid=1008023[/B]


Oh FINALLY! Sheesh, talk about teasing in a major way!!!!


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 05:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723629


> QUOTE (jude'n'jools @ Feb 10 2009, 07:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723616





> Here's the 2009 one Stacy http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/pla...videoid=1008023[/B]


Oh FINALLY! Sheesh, talk about teasing in a major way!!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]
That's funny! :HistericalSmiley: I watched the other twice! It was actually a better 'video'. Better camera work, etc. and I like how that guy handled the ring. Pat still had the first and Tonia the 2nd place in both. :HistericalSmiley:


----------



## joe

ok silly question

the standard says...

QUOTE


> The long head-hair may be tied up in a topknot or it may be left hanging.[/B]


has anyone ever entered a Maltese without a topknot?


----------



## 3Maltmom

QUOTE (Joe @ Feb 10 2009, 09:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723641


> ok silly question
> 
> the standard says...
> 
> QUOTE





> The long head-hair may be tied up in a topknot or it may be left hanging.[/B]


has anyone ever entered a Maltese without a topknot?
[/B][/QUOTE]


Well, they would look like LBB then ~ :HistericalSmiley: 

I should enter him. In his last handicap agility, he bashed into a judge ~ :smrofl: 

Good question, Joe. I'm also curious.


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 04:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723580


> QUOTE (08chrissy08 @ Feb 10 2009, 06:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723577





> I'll be darned, Marcus is Shoni's daddy? Shoni is half brother to my Jazz![/B]


That's a different Marcus that is Shoni's dad!

See? I told you Jazz' dad was something special!

And WHY do they have the 2008 maltese video linked up for 2009? It's cruel, I'm telling you!
[/B][/QUOTE]
Shoni's dad is called Marcus and he is also the son of the same "Marc". Check out his page, he is a gorgeous guy!


----------



## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (Joe @ Feb 10 2009, 09:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723641


> ok silly question
> 
> the standard says...
> 
> QUOTE





> The long head-hair may be tied up in a topknot or it may be left hanging.[/B]


has anyone ever entered a Maltese without a topknot?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Interesting question Joe.....I think the puppy class can have a single topknot but then the adults 2 topknots. I don't know if anyone has ever tried to enter one without a topknot. Maybe some of the show people will know. I think the topknots are a "show" standard.


----------



## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Feb 10 2009, 07:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723639


> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Feb 10 2009, 05:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723629





> QUOTE (jude'n'jools @ Feb 10 2009, 07:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723616





> Here's the 2009 one Stacy http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/pla...videoid=1008023[/B]


Oh FINALLY! Sheesh, talk about teasing in a major way!!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]
That's funny! :HistericalSmiley: I watched the other twice! It was actually a better 'video'. Better camera work, etc. and I like how that guy handled the ring. Pat still had the first and Tonia the 2nd place in both. :HistericalSmiley:
[/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, the camera work on this video was AWFUL!! We don't need all those intense closeups where we miss most of the action!


----------



## Cosy

ROTFL Well I don't know why that site brought up the 2008 breed judging. LOL!
I wondered why Bivins was there again! Glad Keke made it afterall. LOL!
Sorry to those I threw off. :smtease:


----------



## Tina

QUOTE (Joe @ Feb 10 2009, 08:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723641


> ok silly question
> 
> the standard says...
> 
> QUOTE





> The long head-hair may be tied up in a topknot or it may be left hanging.[/B]


has anyone ever entered a Maltese without a topknot?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Vicki Abbott did one time a long time ago. It is something that just "isn't" done. Did he win, I don't remember what Vicki said about it. It was with Henry. She said she had to practise in the hall so he could learn to walk with hair over his eyes.
Tina


----------



## Tina

KeKe Khan is a good judge. She expects perfection in grooming. Look at the video again and watch and see who and who does not have their dogs in top condition and see who she over looked after the first go around. 
Pat Keene was showing the Delcost dog. How can she show her own bitch? Her husband could have shown her but maybe Pat was thinking about the competition and showing a dog for a client. I don't know Pat at all. But it is a thought. 
Tammy usually has good luck with KeKe Khan. Pawsi would have given the Delcost dog a run for his money. I like the movement of Pawsi over the delcost dog. 
The thing that bothered me about the video was how the exhibitors did not congratulate Pat on her win. They split except for Anna and Sarah. (sizzle) Maybe they did later.

Tina


----------



## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 01:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723866


> The thing that bothered me about the video was how the exhibitors did not congratulate Pat on her win. They split except for Anna and Sarah. (sizzle) Maybe they did later.
> Tina[/B]


I saw that too! Are malt breeders really competitive like that at shows, or was it just this show? I don't know, b/c I've never seen a dog show in person(yet!)
I asked that also b/c based on a recent thread about the maltese people at a dog show, I read that a lot of malt breeders were rude. 
Or maybe it can be their nerves?

gosh, I don't know. Please don't be mad at me for asking! I am just curious.


----------



## allheart

QUOTE (ilovemymaltese @ Feb 11 2009, 03:19 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723892


> QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 01:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723866





> The thing that bothered me about the video was how the exhibitors did not congratulate Pat on her win. They split except for Anna and Sarah. (sizzle) Maybe they did later.
> Tina[/B]


I saw that too! Are malt breeders really competitive like that at shows, or was it just this show? I don't know, b/c I've never seen a dog show in person(yet!)
I asked that also b/c based on a recent thread about the maltese people at a dog show, I read that a lot of malt breeders were rude. 
Or maybe it can be their nerves?

gosh, I don't know. Please don't be mad at me for asking! I am just curious.
[/B][/QUOTE]


I gotta tell ya, my heart was pounding and hands sweating...and tummy was in knots...when the judges were looking over the maltese...I really felt for the owners/handlers....I could almost feel their stress.

I would think, and I never been to a show, but I would think the nerves and stress of the owners/handlers, has to be in overdrive. Especially with the Maltese...with the long coats and all, it takes so much to get them looking that way...and keeping them that way. I think it's difficult to compare the Maltese show breeders, say to the beagle show breeders....I think it takes so much more to keep the Maltese looking like they do...and I would think the breeders, just wouldn't have a moment for chit chat, until after the show was over. I just can't even imagine the stress level. Whereas say, with the beagles...they probably get a great deal of grooming too, but once they are done, they real can't get too musy, having a short coat and all...so their breeders may not be as stressed...I am sure they are stressed, but not as stressed as the longer haired breed.


----------



## Maidto2Maltese

I've been watching the Westminster show for some time and I can't recall the Maltese even being pulled for the first cut in the group. It may have happened and I've forgotten. 
I'm also surprised , given their beautiful coats and obvious needed care that they aren't even given much attention in promos or behind the scenes clips etc. Seems the focus is on poodles or Lhasas when they focus on the more intricate groomed pooches.

Also wonder if it was just me..... but the woman co-announcer seemed like a 'dud' compared to other years. She hardly contributed to the conversation at all and the man ( forget his name!) had to carry most of the talking. 

I agree the video clips didn't come close to the quality of previous years. I still find the Maltese clips from 2005 to be one of my favorites to watch.
http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2005/.../index.html#toy


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Feb 11 2009, 04:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723914


> I've been watching the Westminster show for some time and I can't recall the Maltese even being pulled for the first cut in the group. It may have happened and I've forgotten.
> I'm also surprised , given their beautiful coats and obvious needed care that they aren't even given much attention in promos or behind the scenes clips etc. Seems the focus is on poodles or Lhasas when they focus on the more intricate groomed pooches.[/B]


I watch and re-watch every TV version of every dog show I can find and couldn't agree more about the Malts. IF there is even a Malt in the Toy group I've never seen it even pulled that I can remember. There are way fewer entries and most of the judges seem to ignore them in groups. I can't believe the lack of comment by the commentators.

At shows I've attended there are dozens of Yorkies, Paps and all the little shorthaired terriers in the toy rings, and 1-4 Malts--usually 1 showing alone. (Maybe a good way to win? but I don't know how the point system works).

Maybe this is would change if the grooming Malts have to have to show were relaxed a bit? The group judges seem to like the more natural short haired dogs more. Well, except for poodles---now that is weird!


----------



## Cosy

I saw at least a couple of the exhibitors congratulate her. I think perhaps you couldn't tell it
due to the angle of the camera.


----------



## princessre

I'm wondering if it is just show biz talk to say that you hardly prepared your dog for the show, or whether it's really possible. The best if show breeder said he practically didn't even walk his dog down the driveway and didn't know if he would actually show. Given all that we have to do to even keep our Malts clean and alive :biggrin: , is this possible that you can just walk your dog into the stadium and win!? 

Also going back to another question raised, why wouldn't Tajon and Bonnie show up? I know someone said winter weather, travel, etc., but my gosh it's the Westminster! Maybe the Malt show breeders don't expect to win due to the discussion above about how Malts are somewhat overlooked?


----------



## bellaratamaltese

QUOTE (princessre @ Feb 11 2009, 10:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724078


> I'm wondering if it is just show biz talk to say that you hardly prepared your dog for the show, or whether it's really possible. The best if show breeder said he practically didn't even walk his dog down the driveway and didn't know if he would actually show. Given all that we have to do to even keep our Malts clean and alive :biggrin: , is this possible that you can just walk your dog into the stadium and win!?
> 
> Also going back to another question raised, why wouldn't Tajon and Bonnie show up? I know someone said winter weather, travel, etc., but my gosh it's the Westminster! Maybe the Malt show breeders don't expect to win due to the discussion above about how Malts are somewhat overlooked?[/B]


Because of the condition the coat needs to be in, you can't just walk into the maltese ring with no preparation and expect to win. 

As far as it being Westminster, it's a big deal for the people who turn it on tv since it's one of the few televised shows, but in reality, it's a really expensive show to attend, so that may be a factor. I wouldn't read too much into the fact that they were absent, although I would have loved to have seen Pawsi and Karma again (who went BOB and BOS at the Maltese Nationals this past september)


----------



## Moxie'smom

All of the malts were beautiful in person. I spent a lot of time at Westminster yesterday. I felt like a Maltese 'groupie'. Also, myself, Andrea and Carina all saw the Maltese, it was so exciting! The way they all move. Like they were on clouds. It was my first show, but even still, in my opinion, all of them were lovely, but some more so than others. I felt the same for the handlers and the way each dog was handled. From an Art Directors perspective, the best color to wear if you're showing is most def. black. And keep it simple. It really shows off each Maltese. Even though Pat Fernades won wearing black and some greenish colored jacket. Seeing it live, the dog stands out when you take the handlers clothing color out of the equation. 

I really liked Rhapsody's Tonia's "Gabbys" line over the winners dog. She won best of opposite, but I think Tonia will do really well with Gabby. Gabby is only 20 months old, but what a beautiful girl. 

The winners owner was the sweetest woman. She came all the way from from Scotland and we spoke about Doggy passports and how she gets her fluffs in and out of the country without quarantine. We know how strict things are in England. 

Sadly, her baby, the winner, spent almost of of his benching time inside his crate, covered so no one could get a picture or see this beautiful boy up close. Every time I went back to the maltese benching area, he was still in his crate. Covered.:-(

The same went for Gabby and Smarty. Although I saw them on Friday. Actually, in the toy group at the bench overall I thought the Yorkie and Chinese Crested breeders/handlers and owners were exceptionally nice to everyone. All of the Yorkies were for the most part out of their crates lying or sitting in their little satin beds. These women seemed just friendlier to the public and more approachable. 

Jessica, who works for Tonia at Rhapsody was a sweetheart. She spent a lot of time speaking with me about the breed and about herself. About vaccines, health, grooming etc. And about the life of a show dog at a breeders home. I really enjoyed speaking with her. Also Smartys owner from Slovenia and her mother were also very sweet. Her breeding program in Slovenia looks beautiful. 

Some stuff that I saw going on in the grooming area I was really shocked me! :new_shocked: Is this allowed????? Using an eye liner pencil to outline the eye pigment to make it stand out!..This Maltese didn't win. (and I won't mention names here) But I thought that this was kind of wrong. I didn't see the lab people applying shoe polish or black powder to the coat to make it look better! I also saw a Shitzu handler/groomer take his sharpie out to enhance the black hair in his pups top knot. I actually questioned him and he said he use to play by the rules, but when he saw everyone breaking them..he figured he was an idiot for being so honest.

So politics and other stuff that should not be going on sadly is. 

All and all, it was an amazing experience. I nearly pet all of the winners. Somehow I did miss Stump. 

Personally of those I saw, the Silky "Bingo" And his owner handler were one of the nicest teams at the show. Her dog was amazing and so was she.


----------



## KAG

Oh Leslie,
I couldn't wait for your post. I remembered you were going yesterday. Did you bring Moxie? Thanks for all the info. You're amazing!
xoxoxo


----------



## KandiMaltese

We did have fun! It was stressful though, but after seeing the line up, I knew Marcus would win! Christine is such a sweet lady. So nice and down to earth too! Pat Keen handled him to perfection and he was my favorite and deserved the win. I was jealous of the judge being able to put her hands on all those beautiful coats  

So much fun to watch. It was great meeting everyone.  






QUOTE (Moxie'sMom @ Feb 11 2009, 01:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724096


> All of the malts were beautiful in person. I spent a lot of time at Westminster yesterday. I felt like a Maltese 'groupie'. Also, myself, Andrea and Carina all saw the Maltese, it was so exciting! The way they all move. Like they were on clouds. It was my first show, but even still, in my opinion, all of them were lovely, but some more so than others. I felt the same for the handlers and the way each dog was handled. From an Art Directors perspective, the best color to wear if you're showing is most def. black. And keep it simple. It really shows off each Maltese. Even though Pat Fernades won wearing black and some greenish colored jacket. Seeing it live, the dog stands out when you take the handlers clothing color out of the equation.
> 
> I really liked Rhapsody's Tonia's "Gabbys" line over the winners dog. She won best of opposite, but I think Tonia will do really well with Gabby. Gabby is only 20 months old, but what a beautiful girl.
> 
> The winners owner was the sweetest woman. She came all the way from from Scotland and we spoke about Doggy passports and how she gets her fluffs in and out of the country without quarantine. We know how strict things are in England.
> 
> Sadly, her baby, the winner, spent almost of of his benching time inside his crate, covered so no one could get a picture or see this beautiful boy up close. Every time I went back to the maltese benching area, he was still in his crate. Covered.:-(
> 
> The same went for Gabby and Smarty. Although I saw them on Friday. Actually, in the toy group at the bench overall I thought the Yorkie and Chinese Crested breeders/handlers and owners were exceptionally nice to everyone. All of the Yorkies were for the most part out of their crates lying or sitting in their little satin beds. These women seemed just friendlier to the public and more approachable.
> 
> Jessica, who works for Tonia at Rhapsody was a sweetheart. She spent a lot of time speaking with me about the breed and about herself. About vaccines, health, grooming etc. And about the life of a show dog at a breeders home. I really enjoyed speaking with her. Also Smartys owner from Slovenia and her mother were also very sweet. Her breeding program in Slovenia looks beautiful.
> 
> Some stuff that I saw going on in the grooming area I was really shocked me! :new_shocked: Is this allowed????? Using an eye liner pencil to outline the eye pigment to make it stand out!..This Maltese didn't win. (and I won't mention names here) But I thought that this was kind of wrong. I didn't see the lab people applying shoe polish or black powder to the coat to make it look better! I also saw a Shitzu handler/groomer take his sharpie out to enhance the black hair in his pups top knot. I actually questioned him and he said he use to play by the rules, but when he saw everyone breaking them..he figured he was an idiot for being so honest.
> 
> So politics and other stuff that should not be going on sadly is.
> 
> All and all, it was an amazing experience. I nearly pet all of the winners. Somehow I did miss Stump.
> 
> Personally of those I saw, the Silky "Bingo" And his owner handler were one of the nicest teams at the show. Her dog was amazing and so was she.[/B]


----------



## bellaratamaltese

I hope I can go next year! 

Marcus was probably covered to give him down time. Do dogs get jet lag? I always wondered about that!


----------



## Tina

Thank you Leslie for your input. I would love to just go and watch the show and get a feel for how Westminister is. I don't think I would want to show a dog, though I would like to get invited. I am working on that with Monty. 
As for the eye liner, yes it is used. The Best In Show winner's handler (Scott Sumner) taught me how to do it at a show in Moberly, MO. He is a very nice guy. Easy to talk to. I don't do it very often, but occationally it makes a difference. It's like putting on your face before going out in the world. 
A judge told me once: "It's your job to hide the faults of your dog. It's my job to find it." 
I think all the Maltese are beautiful. 

Tina


----------



## tamizami

QUOTE (Maidto2Maltese @ Feb 11 2009, 04:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723914


> I've been watching the Westminster show for some time and I can't recall the Maltese even being pulled for the first cut in the group. It may have happened and I've forgotten.
> I'm also surprised , given their beautiful coats and obvious needed care that they aren't even given much attention in promos or behind the scenes clips etc. Seems the focus is on poodles or Lhasas when they focus on the more intricate groomed pooches.
> 
> Also wonder if it was just me..... but the woman co-announcer seemed like a 'dud' compared to other years. She hardly contributed to the conversation at all and the man ( forget his name!) had to carry most of the talking.
> 
> I agree the video clips didn't come close to the quality of previous years. I still find the Maltese clips from 2005 to be one of my favorites to watch.
> http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2005/.../index.html#toy[/B]


I haven't been watching it for very long but this was the video that really sealed the deal for me on getting a Maltese. Plus I love seeing Mary and Kathy in the ring at Westminster!


----------



## luvmyfurbaby

QUOTE (princessre @ Feb 11 2009, 01:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724078


> Also going back to another question raised, why wouldn't Tajon and Bonnie show up? I know someone said winter weather, travel, etc., but my gosh it's the Westminster! Maybe the Malt show breeders don't expect to win due to the discussion above about how Malts are somewhat overlooked?[/B]


I emailed with Tammy and she said one of her pups had an accident that's why she didn't make it. I told her she had a rooting crowd that was looking forward to her being there.


----------



## pdbailly

QUOTE (Moxie'sMom @ Feb 11 2009, 11:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724096


> All of the malts were beautiful in person. I spent a lot of time at Westminster yesterday. I felt like a Maltese 'groupie'. Also, myself, Andrea and Carina all saw the Maltese, it was so exciting! The way they all move. Like they were on clouds. It was my first show, but even still, in my opinion, all of them were lovely, but some more so than others. I felt the same for the handlers and the way each dog was handled. From an Art Directors perspective, the best color to wear if you're showing is most def. black. And keep it simple. It really shows off each Maltese. Even though Pat Fernades won wearing black and some greenish colored jacket. Seeing it live, the dog stands out when you take the handlers clothing color out of the equation.
> 
> I really liked Rhapsody's Tonia's "Gabbys" line over the winners dog. She won best of opposite, but I think Tonia will do really well with Gabby. Gabby is only 20 months old, but what a beautiful girl.
> 
> The winners owner was the sweetest woman. She came all the way from from Scotland and we spoke about Doggy passports and how she gets her fluffs in and out of the country without quarantine. We know how strict things are in England.
> 
> Sadly, her baby, the winner, spent almost of of his benching time inside his crate, covered so no one could get a picture or see this beautiful boy up close. Every time I went back to the maltese benching area, he was still in his crate. Covered.:-(
> 
> The same went for Gabby and Smarty. Although I saw them on Friday. Actually, in the toy group at the bench overall I thought the Yorkie and Chinese Crested breeders/handlers and owners were exceptionally nice to everyone. All of the Yorkies were for the most part out of their crates lying or sitting in their little satin beds. These women seemed just friendlier to the public and more approachable.
> 
> Jessica, who works for Tonia at Rhapsody was a sweetheart. She spent a lot of time speaking with me about the breed and about herself. About vaccines, health, grooming etc. And about the life of a show dog at a breeders home. I really enjoyed speaking with her. Also Smartys owner from Slovenia and her mother were also very sweet. Her breeding program in Slovenia looks beautiful.
> 
> Some stuff that I saw going on in the grooming area I was really shocked me! :new_shocked: Is this allowed????? Using an eye liner pencil to outline the eye pigment to make it stand out!..This Maltese didn't win. (and I won't mention names here) But I thought that this was kind of wrong. I didn't see the lab people applying shoe polish or black powder to the coat to make it look better! I also saw a Shitzu handler/groomer take his sharpie out to enhance the black hair in his pups top knot. I actually questioned him and he said he use to play by the rules, but when he saw everyone breaking them..he figured he was an idiot for being so honest.
> 
> So politics and other stuff that should not be going on sadly is.
> 
> All and all, it was an amazing experience. I nearly pet all of the winners. Somehow I did miss Stump.
> 
> Personally of those I saw, the Silky "Bingo" And his owner handler were one of the nicest teams at the show. Her dog was amazing and so was she.[/B]



Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Marc when he was owned by the Stanburys was handled by Tonia Holidbaugh as her special, Smarty has been co-owned and shown as a special by Tonia Holibaugh up until a few months ago and Gabby is Tonia's current special.. So even if Tonia didn't show the BOB Maltese this year she is part of the reason that Marc, Smarty and Gabby all placed so well. Congratulations to Tonia for a job well done.


----------



## allheart

QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 01:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724110


> As for the eye liner, yes it is used. The Best In Show winner's handler (Scott Sumner) taught me how to do it at a show in Moberly, MO. He is a very nice guy. Easy to talk to. I don't do it very often, but occationally it makes a difference. It's like putting on your face before going out in the world.
> A judge told me once: "It's your job to hide the faults of your dog. It's my job to find it."
> I think all the Maltese are beautiful.
> 
> Tina[/B]


Tina, I have one more question (promise it will be my last one...or I will try and make it my last one  )...As I am going through this learning process....and I am doing a wee bit better with it...Showing is to evaluate breeding stock? Is that right?

If that it right....and I hope this question comes out right....with the upmost of respect, and sincere desire to understand...
If the show of any breed is to evaluate breeding stock...and I have to tell you the babies on SM from show breeders are incredibly beautiful....and with wonderful temperments as well.....I guess my question is...if the babies hair is being straightened...(and why is that...so it lays flat?)...and occasionally eyeliner is used ....and all that goes into preparing a show dog...is that really an accurate representation of what the little baby doll looks like?

If the show dogs hair is slightly wavy...is that not okay? 

As I said, the little darlings that a lot of SM members have are naturally beautiful...they take your breath away....so I guess my question is....to accurately view a baby for breeding stock...why not do that with the natural beauty they already possess...why darken their pigment on their eye rims? why straighten their hair? Wouldn't the judges frown upon that and would it be much better to view the little darling as they naturally are, so to get a more accurate evaluation of the specific Maltese and what babies that particular dog would possilby ultimately have..whether the liter would have straight hair..wavy hair, dark pigment or what physical characteristics this show dog would ultimately contribute to the breed?

Sorry, just trying to put it all together and really trying to understand. And I couldn't agree with you more...all the Maltese are just beautiful.

Thanks!!!


----------



## Cosy

Hair may be straightened for a couple reasons. One is after being in wraps there are
indentations that need to be ironed out from the wraps. It's not something inherent in
the coat. It can also need ironing due to humidity ...ironing helps rid the humiidty so
the coat lays as nicely as it does in ordinary weather.
As for coloring the eyeliner, it's against the rules, plain and simple. Some people do it and 
some don't. Some get away with it and some don't. Because a big handler does it
doesn't mean everyone else can do it too..or should. If you mask the breed then how
can you possibly better it?


----------



## allheart

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 11 2009, 05:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724268


> Hair may be straightened for a couple reasons. One is after being in wraps there are
> indentations that need to be ironed out from the wraps. It's not something inherent in
> the coat. It can also need ironing due to humidity ...ironing helps rid the humiidty so
> the coat lays as nicely as it does in ordinary weather.
> As for coloring the eyeliner, it's against the rules, plain and simple. Some people do it and
> some don't. Some get away with it and some don't. Because a big handler does it
> doesn't mean everyone else can do it too..or should. If you mask the breed then how
> can you possibly better it?[/B]


Brit...thank you sooooooooo much. I honest to pizza, am really trying to understand and learn...and then be as comfortable as possible with what I am learning...Thank you Brit...that really had me wondering...and made me a little sad too...about the eye liner...as the babies are so beautiful as is....I completely understand now, about the ironing now...I would think humidity would defintely be a factor...thank you...it really helps so much to understand.


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## Tina

QUOTE (Allheart @ Feb 11 2009, 04:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724259


> QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 01:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724110





> As for the eye liner, yes it is used. The Best In Show winner's handler (Scott Sumner) taught me how to do it at a show in Moberly, MO. He is a very nice guy. Easy to talk to. I don't do it very often, but occationally it makes a difference. It's like putting on your face before going out in the world.
> A judge told me once: "It's your job to hide the faults of your dog. It's my job to find it."
> I think all the Maltese are beautiful.
> 
> Tina[/B]


Tina, I have one more question (promise it will be my last one...or I will try and make it my last one  )...As I am going through this learning process....and I am doing a wee bit better with it...Showing is to evaluate breeding stock? Is that right?
Yes, you are right. But unfortunately it has become a grooming contest. Maltese look wonderful with "halos". It is not part of our Standard, but the judges prefer that look. So, what do you do when you can't sit outside with them to get those beautiful halos? I don't add eye liner to make the liner the dog already has bigger, just add a little bit of halos around the eyes. 


If that it right....and I hope this question comes out right....with the upmost of respect, and sincere desire to understand...
If the show of any breed is to evaluate breeding stock...and I have to tell you the babies on SM from show breeders are incredibly beautiful....and with wonderful temperments as well.....I guess my question is...if the babies hair is being straightened...(and why is that...so it lays flat?)...and occasionally eyeliner is used ....and all that goes into preparing a show dog...is that really an accurate representation of what the little baby doll looks like?
Yes. When the weather is humid, it causes the hair to become static with hair raising up. The coat is to lay flat against the sides. We iron to fuse the hair together so it will flow better. Winning in dog shows is all about "presentation". A judge will not put up a dog who will embarrass them in the group ring. A maltese that is not impeccable will not win. The over all dog *must* represent what that breed is to look like. I've learned this the hard way. 

If the show dogs hair is slightly wavy...is that not okay? No, in most people's eyes that is not okay, according to the standard.

As I said, the little darlings that a lot of SM members have are naturally beautiful...they take your breath away....so I guess my question is....to accurately view a baby for breeding stock...why not do that with the natural beauty they already possess...why darken their pigment on their eye rims? 
You can have the most amazing dog and the only major flaw he has is poor pigment. But, behind him is good pigment....what do you do? You have to decide what is important to you. You cannot throw every dog away or you wouldn't have anything left. All dogs are imperfect in some way. So, you use a little eye liner. If you do breed him, you choose the dogs that have the better pigment. I choose structure over anything else. That is hard to get in Maltese. 
why straighten their hair? To make it flow easier and prettier.

Wouldn't the judges frown upon that and would it be much better to view the little darling as they naturally are, so to get a more accurate evaluation of the specific Maltese and what babies that particular dog would possilby ultimately have..whether the liter would have straight hair..wavy hair, dark pigment or what physical characteristics this show dog would ultimately contribute to the breed?
Judges were handler's themselves before they became judges. Depending on the judge, they know all the tricks there is in enhancing a dogs looks. That is what people are doing when they use a little eye liner, chalk, straighten the coat, or anything else they do. Maltese people don't do near the enhancing that other breed people do. They use hair peices in poodles. They chalk a dog from head to toe to get that rough coat. They use dye to color a blue poodle to a black poodle. It goes on and on. 

Sorry, just trying to put it all together and really trying to understand. And I couldn't agree with you more...all the Maltese are just beautiful.
No need to apologize, you are trying to understand the "why" of enhancing show dogs. I've been down this road before too. 

Thanks!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have a story to tell though. This is true. I was at a show in Seward, NE. This woman, who has been in Maltese for a long time, had a Maltese that was in terrible shape coat wise. Very nice otherwise. A judge from Argentina judged the Maltese. He could not speak English. He put up this little girl. She was by far the best in the group, *except* for her coat. The woman took this little girl to the toy group. When it was her turn to be on the table and do her down and back, you could hear a pin drop around the ring..........like someone put this dog up????? The judge was embarrassed and learned that he could not in the US put up a nice Maltese unless it also had a nice coat. Peer pressure. 

I hope I answered your questions. If I stepped on someone's toes, didn't mean to.

Tina


----------



## tamizami

Now I have a question and do not mean any disrespect at all: why would Westminster chose a 10 year old dog for a BIS??? Especially a breed that lives 10-14 years? The dog seems a little too old to be bred, although I know that AKC has rules for evaluating sperm of older dogs. 

I'm really trying not to be a bad sport about the Maltese never getting put up in the group.....and I would definitely feel the same way about a 10 year old Maltese winning BIS.


----------



## allheart

QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 06:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724287


> QUOTE (Allheart @ Feb 11 2009, 04:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724259





> QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 01:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724110





> As for the eye liner, yes it is used. The Best In Show winner's handler (Scott Sumner) taught me how to do it at a show in Moberly, MO. He is a very nice guy. Easy to talk to. I don't do it very often, but occationally it makes a difference. It's like putting on your face before going out in the world.
> A judge told me once: "It's your job to hide the faults of your dog. It's my job to find it."
> I think all the Maltese are beautiful.
> 
> Tina[/B]


Tina, I have one more question (promise it will be my last one...or I will try and make it my last one  )...As I am going through this learning process....and I am doing a wee bit better with it...Showing is to evaluate breeding stock? Is that right?
Yes, you are right. But unfortunately it has become a grooming contest. Maltese look wonderful with "halos". It is not part of our Standard, but the judges prefer that look. So, what do you do when you can't sit outside with them to get those beautiful halos? I don't add eye liner to make the liner the dog already has bigger, just add a little bit of halos around the eyes. 


If that it right....and I hope this question comes out right....with the upmost of respect, and sincere desire to understand...
If the show of any breed is to evaluate breeding stock...and I have to tell you the babies on SM from show breeders are incredibly beautiful....and with wonderful temperments as well.....I guess my question is...if the babies hair is being straightened...(and why is that...so it lays flat?)...and occasionally eyeliner is used ....and all that goes into preparing a show dog...is that really an accurate representation of what the little baby doll looks like?
Yes. When the weather is humid, it causes the hair to become static with hair raising up. The coat is to lay flat against the sides. We iron to fuse the hair together so it will flow better. Winning in dog shows is all about "presentation". A judge will not put up a dog who will embarrass them in the group ring. A maltese that is not impeccable will not win. The over all dog *must* represent what that breed is to look like. I've learned this the hard way. 

If the show dogs hair is slightly wavy...is that not okay? No, in most people's eyes that is not okay, according to the standard.

As I said, the little darlings that a lot of SM members have are naturally beautiful...they take your breath away....so I guess my question is....to accurately view a baby for breeding stock...why not do that with the natural beauty they already possess...why darken their pigment on their eye rims? 
You can have the most amazing dog and the only major flaw he has is poor pigment. But, behind him is good pigment....what do you do? You have to decide what is important to you. You cannot throw every dog away or you wouldn't have anything left. All dogs are imperfect in some way. So, you use a little eye liner. If you do breed him, you choose the dogs that have the better pigment. I choose structure over anything else. That is hard to get in Maltese. 
why straighten their hair? To make it flow easier and prettier.

Wouldn't the judges frown upon that and would it be much better to view the little darling as they naturally are, so to get a more accurate evaluation of the specific Maltese and what babies that particular dog would possilby ultimately have..whether the liter would have straight hair..wavy hair, dark pigment or what physical characteristics this show dog would ultimately contribute to the breed?
Judges were handler's themselves before they became judges. Depending on the judge, they know all the tricks there is in enhancing a dogs looks. That is what people are doing when they use a little eye liner, chalk, straighten the coat, or anything else they do. Maltese people don't do near the enhancing that other breed people do. They use hair peices in poodles. They chalk a dog from head to toe to get that rough coat. They use dye to color a blue poodle to a black poodle. It goes on and on. 

Sorry, just trying to put it all together and really trying to understand. And I couldn't agree with you more...all the Maltese are just beautiful.
No need to apologize, you are trying to understand the "why" of enhancing show dogs. I've been down this road before too. 

Thanks!!!
[/B][/QUOTE]
I have a story to tell though. This is true. I was at a show in Seward, NE. This woman, who has been in Maltese for a long time, had a Maltese that was in terrible shape coat wise. Very nice otherwise. A judge from Argentina judged the Maltese. He could not speak English. He put up this little girl. She was by far the best in the group, *except* for her coat. The woman took this little girl to the toy group. When it was her turn to be on the table and do her down and back, you could hear a pin drop around the ring..........like someone put this dog up????? The judge was embarrassed and learned that he could not in the US put up a nice Maltese unless it also had a nice coat. Peer pressure. 

I hope I answered your questions. If I stepped on someone's toes, didn't mean to.

Tina 

[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh my gosh... :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Tina...THANK YOU :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: 

And I thank all of you.

My heart feels so much better..and I am so happy...grateful...and releived. Bless you and all of you for being so patient with me...and helping me understand things. I mean that from the bottom of my heart :grouphug: 

All my questions are answered...my heart feels wonderful...and I just couldn't thank you...and all of you enough.

Bless all of you  :grouphug:


----------



## Moxie'smom

It's almost as if the Show has turned into a Hollywood type of fashion show, or red carpet. It's against the rules, some people break the rules, so then everyone breaks the rules. 
Doesn't it kinda make it a farce then? 

Good pigment is an important thing. Eyeliner does enhance, so does all that other stuff, but somehow to us, the non show dog people, it seems like it takes away from the whole reason for the show in the first place. If it was a beauty pageant then I understand. Just like using flippers (fake white teeth) and fake lashes for a 5 year old. (I don't like those kind of beauty pageant). But I thought these shows are less of a fashion show then an example of the best of the breed, setting the standard and seeing how close the best breeders come to it. 

Even show dogs have flaws. But take a great groomer and a really good pet quality dog, groom them up and I think they'd look pretty darn good too. 

I do agree with Tina. Structure would be pretty hard to fake. So hopefully even tough the judge knows all the tricks..hopefully she can see through all of that stuff. You just don't want these shows to validate a BYB or a puppy mill's champion. I'm not saying that would happen in a show like Westminster. But if it goes on there, you can bet it's much worse at the smaller shows. No?


----------



## Furbaby's Mommie

QUOTE (pdbailly @ Feb 11 2009, 02:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724250


> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Marc when he was owned by the Stanburys was handled by Tonia Holidbaugh as her special, Smarty has been co-owned and shown as a special by Tonia Holibaugh up until a few months ago and Gabby is Tonia's current special.. So even if Tonia didn't show the BOB Maltese this year she is part of the reason that Marc, Smarty and Gabby all placed so well. Congratulations to Tonia for a job well done.[/B]


I agree.....Tonia does a wonderful job both in getting her dogs ready and in the presentation.


----------



## lorraine

QUOTE (Moxie'sMom @ Feb 11 2009, 11:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724310


> It's against the rules, some people break the rules, so then everyone breaks the rules.
> Doesn't it kinda make it a farce then?[/B]


I have been wondering if anyone is aware of an exhibitor being disqualified for indulging in these cosmetic enhancements and, also, what the exhibitors who do not indulge (assuming there must be some) think about the practice being so prevalent, apparently.


----------



## Lacie's Mom

Westminster is a wonderful show for spectators and is "the place to be" with a top dog -- but as a show, it's a NIGHTMARE.

First, it's very hard to just get into or out of Madison Square Garden with your dog. Just walking the handful of block from the hotel can be a nightmare depending on the weather in NYC in February. 

It is one of the few "benched" shows left in the country. In most non-benched shows, your breed is given a time to show and that's when you have to be there. Once your breed has finished showing, you can leave unless you've won Best Of Breed and need to go into the Group Ring.

In a "benched" show such as Westminster, you are required to have your dog in the benching area for spectators to view the dogs. At Westminster your dog is required to be benched from 11:00 a.m. - 8:00 p.m. the day he shows (i.e., on Monday for the non-sporting breeds, for example, or on Tuesday for the toy breeds). It is very hot in the benching area and very, very, very crowded. There is no place for the owners or handlers to sit but no one in their right mind would leave a dog unattended, so we all stand all day. Obviously we do take turns watching each others dogs from time to time, but still we're mostly in the benching area throughout the day. Approximately 250,000 spectators go through the benching area at Westminster during the day.

The only time your dog is allowed to be off the benching area is when it's time for your breed to show. In addition, the potty facilities at Westminster are terrible for the dogs. They have 2 drop pens that all of the 2500 dogs must use or they have small areas with sawdust. Now -- picture your beautifully groomed Maltese or Lhasa or Shih Tzu going to the bathroom in the sawdust. No thank you. I've sometimes had luck taking them into a hallway and using a potty pad, but there's usually so many people that it's very difficult for the dog to concentrate on what you want him to do, i.e., his potty.

It's wall to wall people and in that sense, it's fun, but it does make for a very, very, very long day for both the owners and handlers as well as the dogs. You must have a ticket to get your dog out of the building and cannot do so prior to 8:00 p.m. That's why so many of the seats are empty during the first group that's judged.

Prior to the early '90s, Westminster not only showed Champions, but also class dogs. Due to the amount of room at the Garden, they then limited it to Champions only. Only 2500 dogs are allowed to be entered. That's why they began inviting the top 5 in each breed. To ensure that these dog's were able to enter. After that, it's done on a first come first serve basis. I don't believe I've ever know someone to get their entry processed for Westminster UNLESS that used an entry service for that show.

In total, I've had one of my dogs (Lhasas) shown at Westminster 12 times. I've taken Best of Breed 6 times, and 1 time I won the Non-Sporting Group. 2 times I got a Group 2 and one time a Group 3. Twice my dog didn't take a group placement.

To get to the type of recognition that is needed to win at Westminster, it is very expensive. If any of you watched the show on CNBC on Monday night after the dog show was completed, you heard the owners talking about how they paid 6 figures for annual advertising for their dogs. A cover of one of the dog magazines that all of the judges receive for free costs between $2,500 - $10,000 for the 1 time. In addition, most of the dogs are shown by handlers who charge their clients for showing the dogs. This is usually not a one time thing at Westminster but the dog lives and travels with his/her handler throughout the year. This is also very expensive. Most handlers have a number of dogs that they show -- so, if you want your dog to be that handlers "first call" then it's even more expensive. By "first call" that means that you (not the owners of the other dogs) decide which shows your dog goes to so that he/she has the best chance of winning. And if your dog wins the non-sporting group, for example, and another dog of the handlers wins the toy group -- the handler must take your dog into Best In Show and the toy dog would go with an assistant or another handler as a courtesy.

To be competitive, you need to learn the "tricks of the trade", i.e., how to groom your breed and how to enhance your dog's assets and "hide the faults". It's the same as any beauty contest. There are no perfect dogs. Breeders are always trying for perfection and we come close in our mind's eye, but like there are no perfect people, the same is true with dogs.

Is judging political -- sometimes. Is the breed standard subjective? yes (just as a beautiful painting to me may not be your cup of tea at all) Does the best dog always win? no -- but more often than not, we hope it does.

As many of the announcers have said during the Westminster Show -- its is a Dog *SHOW* -- and sometimes it's the carishma and sparkle of a particular dog on a particular day that makes him/her the one that wins. 

As a breeder, one doesn't just take 2 champions and put them together and believe that they will have gorgeous puppies. You, hopefully, look at the faults of the dam and the sire and pick ones that will compliment each other faults. For example, if you have a sire with a less than perfect bite, you would not breed him to a dam with a bite problem or with a bite problem in her line. That's why you not only have to look at the 2 dogs you are breeding, but also you must study, study, study and know, know, know the pedigrees. You need to learn where that bad bite came from. It could be as far back as say a great-great-grandsire. That's how breeders help to keep improving the breed.

I hope this helps answer some more of the questions that many of the non-show SM community has. Please feel free to pm me about any other questions you might have.


----------



## aggiemom99

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Feb 11 2009, 06:00 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724316


> QUOTE (pdbailly @ Feb 11 2009, 02:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724250





> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Marc when he was owned by the Stanburys was handled by Tonia Holidbaugh as her special, Smarty has been co-owned and shown as a special by Tonia Holibaugh up until a few months ago and Gabby is Tonia's current special.. So even if Tonia didn't show the BOB Maltese this year she is part of the reason that Marc, Smarty and Gabby all placed so well. Congratulations to Tonia for a job well done.[/B]


I agree.....Tonia does a wonderful job both in getting her dogs ready and in the presentation.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree as well. Tonia is a great trainer. I have also seen her share information with others. Without MARC, there would not be a Marcus, Smarty or Gabby. Or some of our malts here on SM. :wub: Hats off to Rhapsody and Tonia. :rochard:


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## Lacie's Mom

QUOTE (Lorraine @ Feb 11 2009, 05:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724326


> QUOTE (Moxie'sMom @ Feb 11 2009, 11:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724310





> It's against the rules, some people break the rules, so then everyone breaks the rules.
> Doesn't it kinda make it a farce then?[/B]


I have been wondering if anyone is aware of an exhibitor being disqualified for indulging in these cosmetic enhancements and, also, what the exhibitors who do not indulge (assuming there must be some) think about the practice being so prevalent, apparently.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The handlers and owners that are knowledable enough to know how to enhance a dog, also know which judges will not tolerate this, and either don't show under that judge or don't use the "enhancements" with that judge.

And example, there isn't supposed to be any hair spray used on the dogs, however, you cannot put/keep a poodle together with an entire can (at least) of hair spray. Same with Shih Tzu's top knots -- it takes a lot of hair spray to get them to stay. There are probably less than a handful of judges that would strictly enforce the no hair spray rule. So, you take your Shih Tzu in with a "droppy" top knot or you don't show him/her to that judge. To be honest, the judges that enforce these type of rules usually don't get many judging assignments because the exhibitors simply won't show under that judge. Clubs need/want entries to make money on shows -- so if a particular judge doesn't draw exhibitors, they won't hire him to judge.

As far as a 10 year old dog winning Best In Show -- here are some things to consider. This dog didn't JUST NOW become a champion. He's been a champion for many, many years and he's been used for breeding since becoming a champion. He has been number 1 in his breed for many years and has been number 1 in his group several times. The only accelate that he had not achieved was winning Best In Show at Westminster. And at 10 he is still in wonderful condition and able to hold his own with the youngest out there. IMO, it is wonderful that he was good enough to win BIS. He is a beautiful dog and this is a top honor to reward how great the dog has been over the last 10 years. When he walked into the group, I just knew that he would win -- he was out there "strutting his stuff" and really asking for the win. You could tell how much he was enjoying being back in the ring. I would have loved to do that with one of my retirees.


----------



## allheart

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Feb 11 2009, 07:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724327


> Westminster is a wonderful show for spectators and is "the place to be" with a top dog -- but as a show, it's a NIGHTMARE.
> 
> First, it's very hard to just get into or out of Madison Square Garden with your dog. Just walking the handful of block from the hotel can be a nightmare depending on the weather in NYC in February.
> 
> It is one of the few "benched" shows left in the country. In most non-benched shows, your breed is given a time to show and that's when you have to be there. Once your breed has finished showing, you can leave unless you've won Best Of Breed and need to go into the Group Ring.
> 
> In a "benched" show such as Westminster, you are required to have your dog in the benching area for spectators to view the dogs. At Westminster your dog is required to be benched from 11:00 a.m. - 8:00 p.m. the day he shows (i.e., on Monday for the non-sporting breeds, for example, or on Tuesday for the toy breeds). It is very hot in the benching area and very, very, very crowded. There is no place for the owners or handlers to sit but no one in their right mind would leave a dog unattended, so we all stand all day. Obviously we do take turns watching each others dogs from time to time, but still we're mostly in the benching area throughout the day. Approximately 250,000 spectators go through the benching area at Westminster during the day.
> 
> The only time your dog is allowed to be off the benching area is when it's time for your breed to show. In addition, the potty facilities at Westminster are terrible for the dogs. They have 2 drop pens that all of the 2500 dogs must use or they have small areas with sawdust. Now -- picture your beautifully groomed Maltese or Lhasa or Shih Tzu going to the bathroom in the sawdust. No thank you. I've sometimes had luck taking them into a hallway and using a potty pad, but there's usually so many people that it's very difficult for the dog to concentrate on what you want him to do, i.e., his potty.
> 
> It's wall to wall people and in that sense, it's fun, but it does make for a very, very, very long day for both the owners and handlers as well as the dogs. You must have a ticket to get your dog out of the building and cannot do so prior to 8:00 p.m. That's why so many of the seats are empty during the first group that's judged.
> 
> Prior to the early '90s, Westminster not only showed Champions, but also class dogs. Due to the amount of room at the Garden, they then limited it to Champions only. Only 2500 dogs are allowed to be entered. That's why they began inviting the top 5 in each breed. To ensure that these dog's were able to enter. After that, it's done on a first come first serve basis. I don't believe I've ever know someone to get their entry processed for Westminster UNLESS that used an entry service for that show.
> 
> In total, I've had one of my dogs (Lhasas) shown at Westminster 12 times. I've taken Best of Breed 6 times, and 1 time I won the Non-Sporting Group. 2 times I got a Group 2 and one time a Group 3. Twice my dog didn't take a group placement.
> 
> To get to the type of recognition that is needed to win at Westminster, it is very expensive. If any of you watched the show on CNBC on Monday night after the dog show was completed, you heard the owners talking about how they paid 6 figures for annual advertising for their dogs. A cover of one of the dog magazines that all of the judges receive for free costs between $2,500 - $10,000 for the 1 time. In addition, most of the dogs are shown by handlers who charge their clients for showing the dogs. This is usually not a one time thing at Westminster but the dog lives and travels with his/her handler throughout the year. This is also very expensive. Most handlers have a number of dogs that they show -- so, if you want your dog to be that handlers "first call" then it's even more expensive. By "first call" that means that you (not the owners of the other dogs) decide which shows your dog goes to so that he/she has the best chance of winning. And if your dog wins the non-sporting group, for example, and another dog of the handlers wins the toy group -- the handler must take your dog into Best In Show and the toy dog would go with an assistant or another handler as a courtesy.
> 
> To be competitive, you need to learn the "tricks of the trade", i.e., how to groom your breed and how to enhance your dog's assets and "hide the faults". It's the same as any beauty contest. There are no perfect dogs. Breeders are always trying for perfection and we come close in our mind's eye, but like there are no perfect people, the same is true with dogs.
> 
> Is judging political -- sometimes. Is the breed standard subjective? yes (just as a beautiful painting to me may not be your cup of tea at all) Does the best dog always win? no -- but more often than not, we hope it does.
> 
> As many of the announcers have said during the Westminster Show -- its is a Dog *SHOW* -- and sometimes it's the carishma and sparkle of a particular dog on a particular day that makes him/her the one that wins.
> 
> As a breeder, one doesn't just take 2 champions and put them together and believe that they will have gorgeous puppies. You, hopefully, look at the faults of the dam and the sire and pick ones that will compliment each other faults. For example, if you have a sire with a less than perfect bite, you would not breed him to a dam with a bite problem or with a bite problem in her line. That's why you not only have to look at the 2 dogs you are breeding, but also you must study, study, study and know, know, know the pedigrees. You need to learn where that bad bite came from. It could be as far back as say a great-great-grandsire. That's how breeders help to keep improving the breed.
> 
> I hope this helps answer some more of the questions that many of the non-show SM community has. Please feel free to pm me about any other questions you might have.[/B]



Oh my gosh Lynn, what a wealth of information. Thank you so much. Holy gosh, how do they keep them looking so incredible in the midst of all of that...Wow. That is truly incredible...and shows amazing dedication.

I really appreciate you providing all of this incredible information.

Thank you :grouphug:


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## bonniesmom

Just want to say :ThankYou: to Leslie, Tina, and Lynn for their very informative posts! I apologize if I've omitted anyone -
it's a very long thread. :bysmilie:


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## sassy's mommy

I have known about the flat irons, chalk, bleaching, thickening sprays, products....products....products. But I never imagined actually using eye liner. I still think it is sad that the competitions are really just "shows." Who can put on the best show. It would be nice if all of the phoney crap was baned and we got back to the actual structure and natural characteristics of each breed. I understand that there is no "perfect" dog of any breed. But the winner shoud be the best of what is available, not the one who can be made up to put on the best show. 

Toy breed show judge, Mr. Zell von Pohlman, once said to me that he had always thought some of the most beautiful breed specimens were not in dog shows, but were laying on the back of someone's couch not being shown. 

Just my thoughts~Pat


la-la-la, there is no business like show business, la-la-la ~Sassy


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## tamizami

QUOTE (bonniesmom @ Feb 11 2009, 04:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724352


> Just want to say :ThankYou: to Leslie, Tina, and Lynn for their very informative posts! I apologize if I've omitted anyone -
> it's a very long thread. :bysmilie:[/B]


 :goodpost: Me too, thank you!


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## ilovemymaltese

QUOTE (tamizami @ Feb 12 2009, 12:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724581


> QUOTE (bonniesmom @ Feb 11 2009, 04:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724352





> Just want to say :ThankYou: to Leslie, Tina, and Lynn for their very informative posts! I apologize if I've omitted anyone -
> it's a very long thread. :bysmilie:[/B]


 :goodpost: Me too, thank you!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Ditto! I've learned sooooo much about maltese and show dogs in this thread! Thanks so much


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## Cosy

QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 11 2009, 06:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724382


> I have known about the flat irons, chalk, bleaching, thickening sprays, products....products....products. But I never imagined actually using eye liner. I still think it is sad that the competitions are really just "shows." Who can put on the best show. It would be nice if all of the phoney crap was baned and we got back to the actual structure and natural characteristics of each breed. I understand that there is no "perfect" dog of any breed. But the winner shoud be the best of what is available, not the one who can be made up to put on the best show.
> 
> Toy breed show judge, Mr. Zell von Pohlman, once said to me that he had always thought some of the most beautiful breed specimens were not in dog shows, but were laying on the back of someone's couch not being shown.
> 
> Just my thoughts~Pat
> 
> 
> la-la-la, there is no business like show business, la-la-la ~Sassy[/B]



Dog shows have always been about showmanship. That's why it's called a show. 
I don't think all shows and all handlers/breeders/owners are into altering the 
dog for the sake of the ribbon. There have always been some and always will be, I
suppose, but there are still some great dogs being shown without the tadoo. 
Certainly structure is seen in the ring and is important to many judges, especially
in dogs that have athletic purpose. 
We've been watching all champions compete for major points. It's a different ballgame
than in the classes where dogs and pups are competing for their championships. 
That's where you will see judging and dogs usually not altered. It costs money
to travel to shows, equipment, entry fees, etc., and breeders/owners don't
want to spend more than the norm to finish a dog, thus they typically do not show dogs
that aren't worthy.
Just as you have your bad apples in sports like baseball, football, etc., you will find
a few in this sport too...but we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Many shows have Obedience, which has nothing to do with the cosmetic part and
is fun to see the purebreds obey (haha..unlike some of ours).


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## sassy's mommy

QUOTE (Cosy @ Feb 12 2009, 04:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724622


> QUOTE (Sassy's mommy @ Feb 11 2009, 06:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724382





> I have known about the flat irons, chalk, bleaching, thickening sprays, products....products....products. But I never imagined actually using eye liner. I still think it is sad that the competitions are really just "shows." Who can put on the best show. It would be nice if all of the phoney crap was baned and we got back to the actual structure and natural characteristics of each breed. I understand that there is no "perfect" dog of any breed. But the winner shoud be the best of what is available, not the one who can be made up to put on the best show.
> 
> Toy breed show judge, Mr. Zell von Pohlman, once said to me that he had always thought some of the most beautiful breed specimens were not in dog shows, but were laying on the back of someone's couch not being shown.
> 
> Just my thoughts~Pat
> 
> 
> la-la-la, there is no business like show business, la-la-la ~Sassy[/B]



Dog shows have always been about showmanship. That's why it's called a show.  
I don't think all shows and all handlers/breeders/owners are into altering the 
dog for the sake of the ribbon. There have always been some and always will be, I
suppose, but there are still some great dogs being shown without the tadoo. 
Certainly structure is seen in the ring and is important to many judges, especially
in dogs that have athletic purpose. 
We've been watching all champions compete for major points. It's a different ballgame
than in the classes where dogs and pups are competing for their championships. 
That's where you will see judging and dogs usually not altered. It costs money
to travel to shows, equipment, entry fees, etc., and breeders/owners don't
want to spend more than the norm to finish a dog, thus they typically do not show dogs
that aren't worthy.
Just as you have your bad apples in sports like baseball, football, etc., you will find
a few in this sport too...but we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Many shows have Obedience, which has nothing to do with the cosmetic part and
is fun to see the purebreds obey (haha..unlike some of ours).
[/B][/QUOTE]

I wonder if this is where the old expression came from.........."putting on the dog."


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## jazzmalt

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Feb 11 2009, 04:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724327


> In total, I've had one of my dogs (Lhasas) shown at Westminster 12 times. I've taken Best of Breed 6 times, and 1 time I won the Non-Sporting Group. 2 times I got a Group 2 and one time a Group 3. Twice my dog didn't take a group placement.[/B]


Lynn, thank you so much for sharing your extensive experience in the world of dog shows. Although this thread isn't about the merit of dog show results (or so I've been told :blink: ), I still wanted to congratulate you on your outstanding achievements in an arena that few, if any, of us will ever personally know. You bring incredible background to any SM conversations about exhibiting in general, and I so appreciate that. Again, major props to you for your impressive successes at Westminster. :aktion033:


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## MissMelanie

Every single post here was interesting reading and I see some feel the SAME way I do about Dog Shows.

All I wanted to add is, I got a SUPER funny call tonight from someone that knows Mr Wookie... she thought HE was at the show! When I first watched the video, I felt there was a dog showing that looked a lot like Mr Wookie also, but for someone to actually think he was there, really made me laugh! Then another friend called me and asked if I saw the show and thought TWO of the dogs looked like Mr Wookie... what gives? Risky Business genes? :HistericalSmiley: 

TOO FUNNY!


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 12:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723866


> KeKe Khan is a good judge. She expects perfection in grooming. Look at the video again and watch and see who and who does not have their dogs in top condition and see who she over looked after the first go around.
> Pat Keene was showing the Delcost dog. How can she show her own bitch? Her husband could have shown her but maybe Pat was thinking about the competition and showing a dog for a client. I don't know Pat at all. But it is a thought.
> Tammy usually has good luck with KeKe Khan. Pawsi would have given the Delcost dog a run for his money. I like the movement of Pawsi over the delcost dog.
> The thing that bothered me about the video was how the exhibitors did not congratulate Pat on her win. They split except for Anna and Sarah. (sizzle) Maybe they did later.
> 
> Tina[/B]



Because Westminster closes so far in advance, many times people enter more than one dog to show and then decide later which dog to show based on their current situation. Many of us had two dogs entered. I had both Smarty and Gabby entered, but I showed Gabby because Smarty had already gone to Europe and Gabby is the one I am currently showing. Anja brought Smarty back for Westminster, and my assistant Jessica showed him at Westminster and Anja showed him at Progressive.

The ecomony was certainly a factor this year in making a decision to attend. My hotel bill was $1800. By the time I paid for the hotel, my and Jessica's plane ticket, baggage fees (it takes quite a few bags to bring enough equipment), taxi/limo tranportation, fees/food etc .... I am sure I spent over $3000 for this trip. Luckily, I showed 2 other dogs to split some of the expenses, but the average owner/handler would not have that luxury. They could split the hotel with others, though.

Westminster is a very unique show and is very difficult for the handlers and dogs alike. We have to be much more protective of the dogs because of the sheer number of spectators. It is very overwhelming. For dogs like Christine Gillies' Marcus and my Gabby who are young and have not been shown very much, this was a huge learning experience. Smarty is a seasoned show dog and had already been shown at Westminster. He was very comfortable.

You have to be careful not to make judgements based on the video. First, it is edited. We were worked more than what the video showed. Also, the angle of the camera shows some things and doesnt show other aspects. Also, we were not given time to set our dogs up before she turned to us ... so none of the dogs were properly setup on the table as they would have in a normal show before the judge turned to look at the dogs.

As for the exhibitors not being good sports, this certainly was not the case. There was quite a disruption ringside that occurred when Keke Kahn awarded her placements, and I for one was so distracted by this, that you will actually see me stop and stare for several seconds before I pick Gabby up and walk to my placement sign. For those of us who show every weekend, we learn that every show is a new day. Even though we are all competitive, you cannot take each win or loss personally. There is no benefit to being a bad loser or winner.

Thanks for all the nice comments about Smarty and Gabby .....
Gabby and I are happy we are finally home .... Westminster is very tiring .....

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese


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## Rhapsody Maltese

QUOTE (pdbailly @ Feb 11 2009, 04:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724250


> QUOTE (Moxie'sMom @ Feb 11 2009, 11:01 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=724096





> All of the malts were beautiful in person. I spent a lot of time at Westminster yesterday. I felt like a Maltese 'groupie'. Also, myself, Andrea and Carina all saw the Maltese, it was so exciting! The way they all move. Like they were on clouds. It was my first show, but even still, in my opinion, all of them were lovely, but some more so than others. I felt the same for the handlers and the way each dog was handled. From an Art Directors perspective, the best color to wear if you're showing is most def. black. And keep it simple. It really shows off each Maltese. Even though Pat Fernades won wearing black and some greenish colored jacket. Seeing it live, the dog stands out when you take the handlers clothing color out of the equation.
> 
> I really liked Rhapsody's Tonia's "Gabbys" line over the winners dog. She won best of opposite, but I think Tonia will do really well with Gabby. Gabby is only 20 months old, but what a beautiful girl.
> 
> The winners owner was the sweetest woman. She came all the way from from Scotland and we spoke about Doggy passports and how she gets her fluffs in and out of the country without quarantine. We know how strict things are in England.
> 
> Sadly, her baby, the winner, spent almost of of his benching time inside his crate, covered so no one could get a picture or see this beautiful boy up close. Every time I went back to the maltese benching area, he was still in his crate. Covered.:-(
> 
> The same went for Gabby and Smarty. Although I saw them on Friday. Actually, in the toy group at the bench overall I thought the Yorkie and Chinese Crested breeders/handlers and owners were exceptionally nice to everyone. All of the Yorkies were for the most part out of their crates lying or sitting in their little satin beds. These women seemed just friendlier to the public and more approachable.
> 
> Jessica, who works for Tonia at Rhapsody was a sweetheart. She spent a lot of time speaking with me about the breed and about herself. About vaccines, health, grooming etc. And about the life of a show dog at a breeders home. I really enjoyed speaking with her. Also Smartys owner from Slovenia and her mother were also very sweet. Her breeding program in Slovenia looks beautiful.
> 
> Some stuff that I saw going on in the grooming area I was really shocked me! :new_shocked: Is this allowed????? Using an eye liner pencil to outline the eye pigment to make it stand out!..This Maltese didn't win. (and I won't mention names here) But I thought that this was kind of wrong. I didn't see the lab people applying shoe polish or black powder to the coat to make it look better! I also saw a Shitzu handler/groomer take his sharpie out to enhance the black hair in his pups top knot. I actually questioned him and he said he use to play by the rules, but when he saw everyone breaking them..he figured he was an idiot for being so honest.
> 
> So politics and other stuff that should not be going on sadly is.
> 
> All and all, it was an amazing experience. I nearly pet all of the winners. Somehow I did miss Stump.
> 
> Personally of those I saw, the Silky "Bingo" And his owner handler were one of the nicest teams at the show. Her dog was amazing and so was she.[/B]



Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Marc when he was owned by the Stanburys was handled by Tonia Holidbaugh as her special, Smarty has been co-owned and shown as a special by Tonia Holibaugh up until a few months ago and Gabby is Tonia's current special.. So even if Tonia didn't show the BOB Maltese this year she is part of the reason that Marc, Smarty and Gabby all placed so well. Congratulations to Tonia for a job well done.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Thanks Paula 

The dog show world is a small one. We do all try to work together. 

I did show Marc to his champion title as well as a special in 2005 for Angie Stanberry and Sheila Riley. He was the #1 Maltese in 2005 and the #6 Toy Dog winning 8 Best in Shows in only 8.5 months of being shown. I also showed Marc at Crufts in 2006 to his Group 3 win for Christine Gillies. 

The second year she asked me to come to Crufts again, but I was campaigning Chilly and could not go. I really wanted a very talented handler to show Marc at Crufts so I contacted Pat and Wagner and asked them if Wagner could show Marc (Pat was committed to showing Pattaya). Wagner showed Marc to a Group 1st at Crufts in 2007 and then also showed him at the 2007 National. 

I finished 6 of Marc's champion offspring which helped him get his ROM title and Smarty winning his All Breed Best in Shows gave Marc his ROMX title. Gabby is Marc's grandaughter as her dam is Smarty's litter sister. Gabby just started her career (she was shown in 12 shows total as a Special before she went to Westminster) and I hope she will follow in her Uncle and Grandfather's pawprints 

Pat and Wagner also showed Marc's son Marcus to his US title and at the National in 2008. 

I think it is great that we can all work together. It is impossible for us to show multiple Maltese at the specials level at the same time. It would be a shame for the these dogs at these big shows to not get shown because there was no one else to show them.

Keke Kahn really likes a silky coat, pretty faces and nice movement. I spoke with her afterwards and she told me she liked Gabby and Marcus but that she felt Gabby was tripping on her coat and not moving at the end quite a smoothly as Marcus. It is a dog show and at any given time, one dog can shine a little more than another. I will gladly show Gabby to Mrs Kahn again.

I am very proud of Marcus, Gabby and Smarty ... they represented the breed quite succesfully with the BOB, BOS and AOM awards 

Tonia


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## MissMelanie

QUOTE (Rhapsody Maltese @ Feb 13 2009, 09:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=725982


> QUOTE (Tina @ Feb 11 2009, 12:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=723866





> KeKe Khan is a good judge. She expects perfection in grooming. Look at the video again and watch and see who and who does not have their dogs in top condition and see who she over looked after the first go around.
> Pat Keene was showing the Delcost dog. How can she show her own bitch? Her husband could have shown her but maybe Pat was thinking about the competition and showing a dog for a client. I don't know Pat at all. But it is a thought.
> Tammy usually has good luck with KeKe Khan. Pawsi would have given the Delcost dog a run for his money. I like the movement of Pawsi over the delcost dog.
> The thing that bothered me about the video was how the exhibitors did not congratulate Pat on her win. They split except for Anna and Sarah. (sizzle) Maybe they did later.
> 
> Tina[/B]



Because Westminster closes so far in advance, many times people enter more than one dog to show and then decide later which dog to show based on their current situation. Many of us had two dogs entered. I had both Smarty and Gabby entered, but I showed Gabby because Smarty had already gone to Europe and Gabby is the one I am currently showing. Anja brought Smarty back for Westminster, and my assistant Jessica showed him at Westminster and Anja showed him at Progressive.

The ecomony was certainly a factor this year in making a decision to attend. My hotel bill was $1800. By the time I paid for the hotel, my and Jessica's plane ticket, baggage fees (it takes quite a few bags to bring enough equipment), taxi/limo tranportation, fees/food etc .... I am sure I spent over $3000 for this trip. Luckily, I showed 2 other dogs to split some of the expenses, but the average owner/handler would not have that luxury. They could split the hotel with others, though.

Westminster is a very unique show and is very difficult for the handlers and dogs alike. We have to be much more protective of the dogs because of the sheer number of spectators. It is very overwhelming. For dogs like Christine Gillies' Marcus and my Gabby who are young and have not been shown very much, this was a huge learning experience. Smarty is a seasoned show dog and had already been shown at Westminster. He was very comfortable.

You have to be careful not to make judgements based on the video. First, it is edited. We were worked more than what the video showed. Also, the angle of the camera shows some things and doesnt show other aspects. Also, we were not given time to set our dogs up before she turned to us ... so none of the dogs were properly setup on the table as they would have in a normal show before the judge turned to look at the dogs.

As for the exhibitors not being good sports, this certainly was not the case. There was quite a disruption ringside that occurred when Keke Kahn awarded her placements, and I for one was so distracted by this, that you will actually see me stop and stare for several seconds before I pick Gabby up and walk to my placement sign. For those of us who show every weekend, we learn that every show is a new day. Even though we are all competitive, you cannot take each win or loss personally. There is no benefit to being a bad loser or winner.

Thanks for all the nice comments about Smarty and Gabby .....
Gabby and I are happy we are finally home .... Westminster is very tiring .....

Tonia Holibaugh
Rhapsody Maltese
[/B][/QUOTE]

Tonia, thank you so much for posting all this for us. Thank you also for adding so very much to the world of Maltese.

Would you mind sharing what the disruption was ringside? I wish so very much that the video show on the web site was done as nice as previous years. However I enjoy the music they put with the video again this year.

Hope you are all the rest you deserve.


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## Moxie'smom

Tonia your dogs are really beautiful. Thanks for all of the wonderful Maltese info. :ThankYou: 
I am trying the buttermilk everyday and I'm hopeful. I also love what the Tresemme did for Moxie's coat.
Get some good rest, you've earned it.

Moxie'sMom


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