# Dr. Harvey's, Cushings,Ester C and Slentrol



## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

As most of you know Sophie has pituitary cushings and is on trilostan which seems to be working as her cortisol levels are within normal range now. But, she is still gaining weight even though she is on controlled portions of her food and is always ravenous. Everyone in the house is on strict order that she is not to be fed any extras. And, Annie who has been a steady five pounds for a couple of years now eats the exact thing and portions as Sophie and hasn't gained an ounce, but she is a ball of energy so I'm sure that helps and Sophie is not as energetic.

Anyway, the vet wants her on Slentrol which is an appetite suppressant of some sort. I filled the prescription, but am very hesitant to give it to her - but the vet said I need to weigh the cost of her weight against the cost of any side effects of this drug which he says should be none. But, still I hesitate.

So... I called Dr. Harvey's today and spoke to a gentleman I believe was Dr. Harvey. He suggested putting her on the Canine Health-Miracle Dog Food product - emphasizing that this will not do anything to help her lose weight - that's a matter of calories in v. calories burned. But, out of his products that would be the best one for her. He also mentioned rotating the oils and the protein, but all the instructions would be included (I thought of Pat).

He also said I need to give her 500 mg of Ester C a day and call him back at least once a week to go over her progress. He was very nice - sounded a little eccentric, but very nice. 

Anyone give their fluffs Ester C - have any opinions on it and its effects? Anyone familiar with Slentrol - I've looked at all the research on it, but was wondering if anyone had any personal experience. Thanks!

Thanks!


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Linda -- I'm no help at all, except to say that I'm still sending prayers for sweet Sophie. 

And yes, I would want more info too.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

If he sounded a bit eccentric, then yep...you spoke with Dr. Harvey! :yes: I think the world of that man. :tender: 

I think on the Canine Health, it does fill them up quicker and keep them feeling full longer. My Zoe was very overweight a few years ago. She had gotten up to 11 lbs! :w00t: And she was soooo hungry when I cut back her food portions. She lost weight while on Dr.H's Canine Health because I could seriously cut back her portion and she felt full quicker. But I do agree that it's not a diet food at all. I have no experience with Ester C or Slentrol, but did want to share my experience with the Dr.H Canine Health.

I hope you find what works best for your sweet Sophie. I did receive this email from Dr. Becker today and it's on Cushings. I've not watched the videos yet but thought I'd pass it on to you. Maybe there's something in there that will help. 

Cushing's Disease May Be Caused by Your Dog?s Stress


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Thanks, Crystal. Very informative - I read the transcripts. I just wish I knew what to do about the out of control appetite. She begs all the time - poor thing is always starving and when she realizes she's not getting anything more to eat she retreats to her bed and just licks and licks and licks the bed, the blanket - it breaks my heart. 

We give her lettuce and green beans to help her feel full, but it doesn't satisfy her for long - so then we play and play and play until I'm ready to fall over. 

I hope this Dr. Harvey's food helps and I'm going to try the Ester C. I really don't want her on the slentrol, but she can't keep gaining weight like this. The vet says she doesn't have any organ or cardio damage, yet, from the weight, but she has fat inside and outside. I know it's not my fault, but I feel so bad and so sorry. I love my Sophie so much and she is so very young to be going through this.

Thanks again.

Linda


Crystal&Zoe said:


> If he sounded a bit eccentric, then yep...you spoke with Dr. Harvey! :yes: I think the world of that man. :tender:
> 
> I think on the Canine Health, it does fill them up quicker and keep them feeling full longer. My Zoe was very overweight a few years ago. She had gotten up to 11 lbs! :w00t: And she was soooo hungry when I cut back her food portions. She lost weight while on Dr.H's Canine Health because I could seriously cut back her portion and she felt full quicker. But I do agree that it's not a diet food at all. I have no experience with Ester C or Slentrol, but did want to share my experience with the Dr.H Canine Health.
> 
> ...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Since Sophie has health issues, I would consult a canine nutritionist for a recipe specially formulated for her. 

Dr. Harvey may be very nice and I know his pre-mixes are popular, but he is a human chiropractor, not a vet or canine nutritionist.

*Sabine Contreras* (see About Page)
Marina del Rey, CA
Ph: (310) 991-6673
E-mail: [email protected]
Better Dog Care, Better Dog Nutrition (site for consults)
The Dog Food Project (for food information)

*Susan Blake Davis*, CCN
CCN-Certified Clinical Nutritionist 
VCA Arroyo Animal Hospital 
Lake Forest, CA 
Ph: 949-499-9380
E-mail: [email protected]
website: Holistic Veterinarian Pet Nutritionist Holistic Pet Care

*Rebecca Remillard* (PhD, DVM, MS, DACVN)
Angell Animal Medical Center - Boston, MA
(617) 522-7282
MSPCA-Angell: Nutrition Team
Veterinary Nutritional Consultation, Inc.
Welcome to Pet Diets

*Joseph Wakshlag*
Assistant Professor of Clinical Nutrition
Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine - Ithaca, NY
E-mail: [email protected]
Ph: (607) 253-4389
Fax: (607) 253-3534

*Hilary Watson*
Ph: (519) 836-7253
[email protected]
(Note: Please specify nutrition request in subject line to avoid spam filters)
Hilary Watson Pet Nutritionist
(Can ONLY be contacted by those in Canada at this time)

*Lisa Weeth* (DVM, DACVN)
Redbank veterinary Hospital - Red Bank, NJ
Ph: (732) 747-3636


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Thanks, Marj! What a dolt I can be. I don't know why I didn't think of a canine nutritionist!!! I just assumed he was a vet! I need to calm down about this and everything else going on in my life right now and get a grip and think all of this through. Thanks for the links. I had looked for a local nutritionist a while ago and couldn't find one - I'm going to call LSU vet school tomorrow and see what they say and if nothing I'll check out your links in more detail. My vet's office was not helpful at all when I had told them I wanted to home cook for the girls, but this was before Sophie's diagnosis. They gave me such technical information and dire warnings that it would have turned anyone off of the idea of home cooking.

If need be, I guess Annie can eat the Dr. Harvey's as I already ordered it! 

Linda


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

sophie said:


> Thanks, Marj! What a dolt I can be. I don't know why I didn't think of a canine nutritionist!!! I just assumed he was a vet! I need to calm down about this and everything else going on in my life right now and get a grip and think all of this through. Thanks for the links. I had looked for a local nutritionist a while ago and couldn't find one - I'm going to call LSU vet school tomorrow and see what they say and if nothing I'll check out your links in more detail. My vet's office was not helpful at all when I had told them I wanted to home cook for the girls, but this was before Sophie's diagnosis. They gave me such technical information and dire warnings that it would have turned anyone off of the idea of home cooking.
> 
> If need be, I guess Annie can eat the Dr. Harvey's as I already ordered it!
> 
> Linda


Canine nutritionists are wonderful for a dog with health issues. They can customize a recipe for Sophie, then tweak it if necessary based on her bloodwork.

I'm bet your vet will be more comfortable with you homecooking if he knows you have consulted a canine nutritionist.

BTW, green beans were the key to getting weight off Lady after she was diagnosed with diabetes.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm going to call this office tomorrow and see if she is a nutritionist or knows of one. It says she studied under Dr. Pitcairn. It can't hurt to call:

Natural Pet Care


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

sophie said:


> I'm going to call this office tomorrow and see if she is a nutritionist or knows of one. It says she studied under Dr. Pitcairn. It can't hurt to call:
> 
> Natural Pet Care


Her credentials are very impressive!

I found product information on slentrol. If it were me, I sure would try to manage her weight with diet and homepathic remedies first:

https://www.slentrol.com/display.aspx?sec=pi


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Linda - unfortunately I know what you mean about Sophie being hungry and how hard it is to deal with. The beagle I pet sat in the Hamptons over Labor Day weekend is on chemo and Prednisone and he was starving ALL the time. My cousin told me the story of Bailey grabbing a pound of bacon off the counter and my cousin getting it and Bailey not letting go. :w00t:The tug of war ended with her DH cutting the bacon with a scissors and them both nearly falling backwards.:HistericalSmiley: He would beg all the time and would attempt to get at anything -- on counters, tables, in your hand, the garbage. He was insane with hunger from the steroids but if you had a cookie in your hand he would follow you to the ends of the world. Broke my heart. He's luckily being weaned off the Pred now. I'm thinking of you and praying for you that something will work.
About the Ester C = didn't I just read in someone's post (maybe Marsha's) that Vitamin C should never be given to a Maltese?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

You're right, Sue. Unlike humans, dogs naturally produce their own Vitamin C so supplementing with it long term can actually cause the dog to stop producing vitamin C on its own or even produce calcium oxalate stones.

Vitamin C Overdose in Dogs | eHow.com


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Dogs make their own Vitamin C and generally do not need supplementation unless there is a medical condition that warrants it. That being said, I have given mega doses of Vitamin C to my bichon (borderline cushings dog) when she was bit by a brown recluse spider, and both myself and the vet think it really helped with the healing process. 

Since Vitamin C is a water-soluble vitamin, imo it is not harmful in small amounts, but with dogs it is a tricky business, and never long-term. When you have a dog with a medical condition, it is best to consult a nutritionist to find healing FOODS, instead of giving supplements, as most supplements on the market are absolute crap, and you do not want to put synthetic crap into a dog that already has a medical condition. If it were my dog, I'd give it milk thistle 2 weeks per month, to keep the liver in optimal condition. I'd use Eclectic Institute's freeze-dried organic Milk Thistle, which is a food - not synthetic - a good product, and not too expensive. iHerb.com - Vitamins, Supplements & Natural Health Products sells it. 

Regarding vitamin supplements, yes, of course, there are exceptions - wonderful brands like New Chapter, Jarrow, Natural Factors, Country Life, and others, but IMO I wouldn't waste my money on Vitamin C supplements. Bell Peppers have more vitamin C than oranges, and they are a low-calorie food given in moderation. Celery is also a low-calorie food, but it does contain some natural sodium, so if it were my dog, I'd limit it.


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

Linda, I sure hope you have success with helping Sophie lose her weight.
I can only imagine how hard it is to see her wanting to eat and not being able to give her anything. Hopefully a nutritionist will be able to help.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Okay, I've officially lost my mind! I actually posted back in June asking everyone's opinion on this vet - it was right in the middle of the time Sophie was going through all of her tests for Cushings. I guess today was the day I needed the reminder about her and tomorrow is the day I call and make the appointment. Thanks, y'all!! I love being able to come here and share - I learn so much from y'all.

Linda


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

I made the appointment for Sat., 10/4. Until then I'm not making any changes to Sophie's diet. The appointment is for an hour @ $150. But, she only charges for the time the appointment lasts, but you can take the whole hour if you want. The lady who answered the phone and explained everything to me also mentioned that Dr. Sagrera would also go over the dangers of all the vaccinations. I can't wait - I need to gather all of Sophie's tests results and lab work! I'm excited about this!

Thanks!

Linda


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## Johita (Jul 10, 2009)

Thanks Crystal. The videos were very informative and next time I go to the vet I will have him check Aolani's urine just in case. I don't know what happened, but I only see two parts of the series :-(


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

sophie said:


> I made the appointment for Sat., 10/4. Until then I'm not making any changes to Sophie's diet. The appointment is for an hour @ $150. But, she only charges for the time the appointment lasts, but you can take the whole hour if you want. The lady who answered the phone and explained everything to me also mentioned that Dr. Sagrera would also go over the dangers of all the vaccinations. I can't wait - I need to gather all of Sophie's tests results and lab work! I'm excited about this!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Linda



I think you struck gold with Dr. Sagrera! A vet who is also trained in holistic medicine is the best of both worlds.

One of the vets in the practice up in Raleigh was very knowledgeable about holistic medicine. I miss Dr. Suzy! :smcry:


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Linda - I was reading about her and indeed saw she's a vet and not just a nutritionist and she's holistic. Probably the best of all worlds for Sophie and her issues. Good luck and let us know how it is. It's pretty soon luckily.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

sophie said:


> Thanks, Marj! What a dolt I can be. I don't know why I didn't think of a canine nutritionist!!! *I just assumed he was a vet!* I need to calm down about this and everything else going on in my life right now and get a grip and think all of this through. Thanks for the links. I had looked for a local nutritionist a while ago and couldn't find one - I'm going to call LSU vet school tomorrow and see what they say and if nothing I'll check out your links in more detail. My vet's office was not helpful at all when I had told them I wanted to home cook for the girls, but this was before Sophie's diagnosis. They gave me such technical information and dire warnings that it would have turned anyone off of the idea of home cooking.
> 
> If need be, I guess Annie can eat the Dr. Harvey's as I already ordered it!
> 
> Linda


That (in red above) is what bothers the heck out of me. He should not call himself "Dr" in this situation. It just isn't above board. I'm sure he is a kind and nice man but that doesn't make up for the deception and I would not be able to get past that to buy his food.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

k/c mom said:


> That (in red above) is what bothers the heck out of me. He should not call himself "Dr" in this situation. It just isn't above board. I'm sure he is a kind and nice man but that doesn't make up for the deception and I would not be able to get past that to buy his food.



I agree with you 100%. When you earn a doctorate you earn the right to be called "doctor" no matter what your specialty is, but in this case I think it is deliberately misleading. 

This website evaluated the pre-mixes and found Dr. Harvey's likely to be nutritionally incomplete.

*Likely Incomplete Diets*

*These mixes have little nutritional information and should not be relied upon to provide a complete diet, but they'd be fine to feed on occasion or for a limited time: *


*Dr. Harvey's Canine Health

It is not clear how much calcium Dr. Harvey's product contains, and whether it would really provide a balanced diet. No nutritional analysis of his products has been done. It would be fine to feed this food occasionally, but look for a product that gives you more information for long-term use. Also offers Veg-to-Bowl, a mix of dehydrated vegetables and herbs. Note that Dr. Harvey is apparently a chiropractor, not a veterinarian or someone with training in canine nutrition.*

DogAware.com: Dog Food Mixes


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Isn't Marj unbelievable?!!!!

Lots of love, good luck wishes and prayers are heading your way, Linda.
xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

If it helps, I mix cauliflower or sweet potato with my girls food as fillers.
xoxoo


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

I think Vitamin C boosts the immune system. Dr. Pitcairn recommends using it when treating illness. I'm not sure about not giving it to a Maltese though, I'll have to check out the thread on that.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

wooflife said:


> I think Vitamin C boosts the immune system. Dr. Pitcairn recommends using it when treating illness. I'm not sure about not giving it to a Maltese though, I'll have to check out the thread on that.



IMO, it can definitely be used, as long as you monitor the dog and don't use it for more than 2 weeks at a time with a month break.


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

Okay so if the AAFCO nutritional tests consist of feeding 6 beagles the same food for 6 months and if none of them die then the food meets AAFCO standards. 

THEN

I think feeding 6 maltese the food for two years and having all 6 of them have excellent blood work for two years running AND none of them die is enough evidence for me that the food is nutritionally complete. 

Furthermore:

You will NEVER find a pre-mix that says it is nutritionally complete. If the food does not already contain the protein it cannot be labeled as nutritionally complete. It will be labeled for supplemental feeding only.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Ladysmom said:


> I agree with you 100%. When you earn a doctorate you earn the right to be called "doctor" no matter what your specialty is, but in this case I think it is deliberately misleading.
> 
> This website evaluated the pre-mixes and found Dr. Harvey's likely to be nutritionally incomplete.
> 
> ...



I think that we forget that food itself contains vitamins and minerals. 

Why aren't most of the dogs who have been eating Dr Harvey's pre mix for years sick or dead? There are a lot of SM people who use it, and I know of others, too. What makes this pre-mix okay is that the owners add human-grade proteins/oils. The food plus the premix together contains enough vitamins and minerals to sustain good health.

I do not have a problem with Dr Harvey using his title. I knew he was a chiro, and not a vet long before I bought his food because I did my own research first, like everyone should do before they choose a food. 

On the flip side, many people blindly trust Science Diet, who employs all sorts of folks with mega credentials - yet their food is poor quality crap. And then there is Dr. Harvey - a man who has spent years researching and experimenting to find the right nutritional blend of herbs and veggies to supplement a meat diet to help dogs obtain optimum health. 

Just my .02


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I think that we forget that food itself contains vitamins and minerals.
> 
> Why aren't most of the dogs who have been eating Dr Harvey's pre mix for years sick or dead? There are a lot of SM people who use it, and I know of others, too. What makes this pre-mix okay is that the owners add human-grade proteins/oils. The food plus the premix together contains enough vitamins and minerals to sustain good health.
> 
> ...


 

:goodpost:


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

wooflife said:


> Okay so if the AAFCO nutritional tests consist of feeding 6 beagles the same food for 6 months and if none of them die then the food meets AAFCO standards.
> 
> THEN
> 
> ...





Nikki's Mom said:


> I think that we forget that food itself contains vitamins and minerals.
> 
> Why aren't most of the dogs who have been eating Dr Harvey's pre mix for years sick or dead? There are a lot of SM people who use it, and I know of others, too. What makes this pre-mix okay is that the owners add human-grade proteins/oils. The food plus the premix together contains enough vitamins and minerals to sustain good health.
> 
> ...



AND...how many CEO's or Presidents of a company will take the time to talk with individual people to truly try and help them with any health related problems, even suggesting things they themselves don't sell? Chiropractors were learning about nutrition and homeopathic remedies long before we had so many holistic vets, any vet nutritionists, and homeopathic drs. 

Zoe and Jett have been PERFECT now for 2 1/2 years. The only time they weren't perfect was when I tried to add a multi-vitamin to their Dr. H and it had just enough calcium in it to make Zoe's phospherous level too low. That to me really indicates that it is balanced.

The really scary thing about how some foods can become AAFCO compliant is through a 'family member'. If a company goes through the 6 month testing for just ONE of their formulas, and no dogs die or show signs of being deficient in something or too much of another...when truthfully it can take over a year to develop, then any other formula of theirs is automatically AAFCO compliant. Now where is the common sense in that?


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

With respect to vets, I have to agree that most chiros and herbalists that I've met know more about nutrition than MD's or DVM's. My own doctor and Nikki's vet both freely admit the same. 

In all honesty, you don't need a degree to look up the RDA for dogs and find 
foods on nutrition data that fit the bill. It's just time-consuming. 

It is in the best interest of dog owners for them to be pro-active when choosing a food or a pre-mix. At first, I was overly worried about getting the proper amount of vitamins/minerals each day, until I studied more about canine nutrition and realized that Nikki was getting much of what she needed from the food itself. 

Supplementation is just that, a supplement to the vitamins/minerals that are already contained in food. I am all for supplementation WHEN and IF it is truly needed. For home cooking, yes, some supplementation is needed but it's a good idea not to go overboard with supplementation, either. Read "The Hundred-Year Lie" if you don't believe me. 

Here's how I look at it: Would I rather give my dog food with synthetic supplements added, which are made in China - that may or not contain what they claim to contain, or would I rather give my dog whole foods that contain vitamins/minerals/herbs - like a pre-mix like Dr. Harvey's, or a multi/calcium like Animal Essentials. 

Some folks are comfortable with food approved by AAFCO, and some are comfortable with feeding whole foods/herbs to obtain vitamins/minerals. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this matter. I think we've discussed it several times before.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Linda -- I've very excited about your Saturday appointment for Sophie. I'm praying that you will get the help you need and that Miss Sophie won't be "starving" anymore. Please keep us posted on what you find out. I'm be sending prayers and positive energy your way. 

As far as Dr. Harvey's, the girls love it and my Vet tells me that whatever I'm feeding them must be great because they're in perfect weight and their blood panels are excellent. Dr. Harvey is pretty nutty, LOL, but I love talking to him on the phone. He always bends over backwards to be helpful. It is obvious that he has dedicated his life's work to helping fluffs with their nutritional needs which is more than I can say for most commercial dog food producing companies.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

I haven't made up my mind one way or the other as far as Dr. Harvey's food goes - I just think as Marj suggested - since Sophie does have an underlying health issue - that I will wait until I see Dr. Sagrera before making any changes to her diet at all. 

This thread is very interesting and has given me a LOT to think about. Thanks for everyone's contribution. I wish the appointment were this weekend.

Linda

Linda


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