# Decided not to keep my retiree...



## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

OK I’ve been dreading posting this, maybe didn’t even need to, (hoping no one would remember), but guess I just needed some moral support even if I did screw up. Hopefully people won’t think too badly of me. I got a retiree over the Christmas holiday and was a little unprepared for some of the behavioral issues that needed to be addressed. I had been considering a rescue and would have expected issues and waited until I had at least 2 weeks off work to begin resolving those. But I went with a retiree instead, thinking there would be fewer issues to deal with and hopefully a week off would be enough to at least start working on them. My new little girl had severe separation anxiety and could not be more than a few inches away from me. When I crated her she went into hysterics that would continue for over 2 hours (the longest I could last). I was waiting for even a moment of calm behavior to reward but there never was any. I started then crating her for maybe 10min. at a time & getting her regardless of her behavior and increasing by 5 minutes when she seemed ok at 10min. She seemed to have totally forgotten her piddle pad training so I really needed to be able to crate her when I couldn’t watch her closely. I did not even have the standard 1 ½ to 2 hours window of time between piddling, like with a puppy. She would go every 10 to 15 minutes unless I was holding her. I couldn’t ask my parents to babysit like they do Zoe with these problems so I found a new doggy day care that just opened in my area that was willing to help me in resolving these issues. I was thrilled to find them because she really had a great personality and I was getting really attached. I took her to my vet to see if maybe she had a UTI explaining the frequency in her piddles. She did not have a UTI but he did tell me she had the beginnings of a cataract in her right eye and would most likely have cataracts in both and be totally blind in a few years. He also said she had severe periodontal disease and I could expect to have some fairly high vet bills in the near future. She also had a rattle in her chest that may be secondary to her “debarking”, (which I was not told of, nor had ever heard of), but recommended an x-ray if I was seriously considering keeping her. He actually told me that out of a protective feeling for me as his client, I should return her. I can’t even begin to tell you how awful I’m feeling. I start to cry at odd times and feel like I’m in mourning. I feel like I’m the most awful person in the world and should have kept her regardless of her health problems. But the reason I opted for a retiree instead of a rescue was because the rescues in my area had too severe of health problems than I wanted to take on and I wanted a healthy dog. It’s one thing to have a dog as a puppy that may develop health issues later in life, but for me a whole other thing to adopt a dog who already has or know will have health issues soon. My life style is such that I take Zoe with me everywhere and would do the same with this little girl. Also her time would be divided between my house and my parents house when I'm at work. Could a blind dog adapt to 2 homes? I know I couldn't take her with me to friends homes if she was blind. At this point I’m thinking maybe I’m a one dog woman. Zoe misses her best friend Pepper who moved away this past spring, but in general is happy. I don’t think I can go through another heartache and am wondering if maybe I was expecting too much. At least I know that with this new doggy day care that is trained in helping to house break a puppy, I can maybe consider getting a puppy again…but not far a while.


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## dogloverx3 (Apr 14, 2006)

I think you did the responsible thing - if you were having trouble and could not cope. It is completely understandable that you returned the dog . Retirees and rescues are certainly no less work than a puppy . I hope you can feel better about your decision . Sarah


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## Carla (Aug 30, 2005)

I don't think you are the worst mommy ever. In fact I want to commend you for returning her as quickly as you did. We all have our limits on what we can tolerate and problems we can deal with. You were wise to accept your limits and deal with them quickly.









Carla & Shotzi


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## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

OMG I feel so much for what you are going through right now.
This is a retiree, right? From a breeder, right? and the breeder didn't tell you about her health problems, right? If yes to all three questions - that is just scandalous... but, regretably, it happens everywhere.

I once adopted a retiree Yorkie that I found out later to be from a Puppy Farm. She was well under 3 lbs in weight, riddled with fleas, almost blind, very hard of hearing and had been bred from many times. But she gave back in love much more than she cost in vet bills. However, I was lucky enough to be able to afford the vet bills throughout her, admittedly, short life. Otherwise I would have done the same as you. 

Do not blame yourself for anything. We all understand.


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

Hold me back please. First, I'm so sorry this happened to you. Next, retiree? How about, used, ill cared for and then tossed to make room for another puppy producing machine that will be "retired" in six years?









I'm so sorry for you to have had this experience. We can all learn from it. The dental problems a breeding female Toy Breed dog has should be made common knowledge. Calciium gets depleted and Toy Breeds haven't got great denture to begin with. A dental ought to be required along with the spay when a dog (bitch) is "retired."

My retired bitch had many of her teeth removed and was spayed before she ever went up for adoption; she also was thoroughly vetted before leaving her home and immediately upon arrival at mine (including full blood tests here). If anyone is considering adopting a retired breeding female, run, don't walk, if she isn't fully vetted, spayed, and given a complete dental procedure before she leaves.

UTI's are kind of par for the course among many dogs when they are rehomed. What we can learn here is, whenever there's a peeing issue, first think physical reason, eliminate that, and then go to behavioral.

Cataracts. How old was this girl? Perhaps the dog's age wasn't correctly quoted to you? Sadly, cataracts in maturing small dogs are pretty much a fact of life for many and losing eyesight usually doesn't impact them in the least. While I would want to know about that ahead of time, it wouldn't prevent an adoption (I've had two adult adopted dogs lose their sight in their mature years).

Separation anxiety. Can't really fault anyone for that. It happens quite often and usually can be resolved with nerves of steel and time, as much as six months to a year.

Everyone considering an adoption of any dog from anyone anywhere, learn from this. Acquiring an adult dog is never, ever the same as raising a puppy to maturity. Stuff is going to need to be dealt with no matter where they come from.

So sorry for you and sad for the little dog. She can't be welcome back where she came from, can she?









PS: It would be wonderful to see breeder's website pages offering retirees have an article along the lines of the one Lady's Mom posted, from the puppy mill rescue website, pulling no punches and explaining exactly what a person will have to contend with adopting a "retiree."


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I've been wondering how it was working out with Chastity.

I think you should have been better prepared by the breeder for what adopting a retiree involved. Adopting an adult dog isn't for everyone. It can be much more difficult to unbreak habits and deal with health issues than to start fresh with a puppy.

I am shocked to hear she'd been debarked. I have heard rumors about that practice by some top breeders, though. I would have expected the breeder to have shared that information with you beforehand.


I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

You did what was best for you. Don't feel so bad about it .. you gave it your best and it just didn't work out.

I think I will see many of the health problems you mentioned as my kids get older. I think it just comes with an older dog. Teeth and eye problems seem to be pretty common. I already had my share of eye issues and they do adapt very very well.


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

I'm surprised by the lack of disclosure too.

Cherry's breeder (and Charlie's) was completely forthright with us and sought people who she felt would match the retiree's personalities as well as issues. Nothing was with held from us.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

> Cataracts. How old was this girl? Perhaps the dog's age wasn't correctly quoted to you? Sadly, cataracts in maturing small dogs are pretty much a fact of life for many and losing eyesight usually doesn't impact them in the least. While I would want to know about that ahead of time, it wouldn't prevent an adoption (I've had two adult adopted dogs lose their sight in their mature years).[/B]


She is 7yrs old and I was told she was in perfect health and her teeth looked great. When I contacted her breeder to let her know what my vet said, she told me that her teeth were great for a toy dog her age. That to me is different then "her teeth look great". She also said that cataracts are normal for a dog her age. My vet however said that while there are a great many dogs with cataracts, it certainly is not the norm. He also really questioned her medical records that showed she had a cleaning last June. He said that as we all know, periodontal disease is the biggest health problem in toy dogs, but felt that what she had was worse than to be expected for a retired show dog of her age who had been having regular dental cleanings. So who is right? I was willing to deal with the behavioral issues but returned her to her breeder due to the health issues. Are her health issues what I should expect for Zoe when she is 7?


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

> Are her health issues what I should expect for Zoe when she is 7?[/B]


Probably not, but, certainly possible. If you get annual dental procedures (semi annual if her teeth are poor), you will be keeping up with removing teeth and knowing about periodontal disease as it occurs. And, if she doesn't have even slight dry eye, if her genetics don't have a history of cataracts early on, then you may not see any of this until she's eight, nine or ten.

But, teeth and eyes "go" as they mature. Cataracts are very, very common but there are dogs who make it into their teens before they appear.

Our Toy Breed dogs live very long lives; at some point, we all may have dogs with urinary problems, cataracts/blindness, deafness, and few or no teeth (even if we're careful--teeth are just an issue because the Toy Breed dog has the same number of teeth as a standard sized dog within an abnormally small and in many cases now with these minute, miniscule, freakishly small Maltese, Yorkies, etc, dwarf mouths, malformed jaws).

PS: My Giorgio (a pet shop/puppy mill Maltese) is eleven years old and he doesn't have the slightest sign of cataracts--yet. He does, however, need dental work done routinely.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I feel so sad for both of you.







But I do understand.

A few years ago I had to move from my large house in Arizona to a condo in Florida and could only take 2 of my Lhasas with me. At that time I had 6 Lhasas that were aging or already geriatric and 2 that were young (under 3). 

Although my very, very, very, very favorite girl of all times was still with me, she was 16 and blind and went to the bathroom all the time (wherever).







This was because of her age not because she wasn't trained as this had only begun when she was about 14 1/2.

Anyway, I had to make the decision of whether or not to put this girl down and take the 2 young ones with me. I talked to friends, family, my vet, show friends, etc. and in the end, I knew that my girl would NOT be able to adjust to the huge change in living conditions and that her time was almost over.

It was the hardest decision I had to make -- but I ended up putting her down. I have never gotten over my guilt for doing this, but still believe that it was the best decision considering all the changes that were in store for us.

I'm sure this was best for both of you, and that it was the right decision.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

As NYC said, as dogs age they do develop health issues that can be costly. That's one of the reason why I always drag out my soapbox and warn people who are adding a second or more puppy to think long term and how they will handle all those inevitable senior dog vet bills. Even a healthy senior can rack up some hefty vet bills just in preventative care.

Toy dogs are notorious for dental problems. Lady supposedly has "great" teeth according to my vet at age eleven, but tartar and plaque are still a big problem. Yearly dentals can be expected.

Cataracts are an inevitable part of aging, too, and if I recall, this dog was going to turn eight in a few months. Not all dogs get them, though. My Lady is diabetic and suppposed all diabetic dogs get them eventually, but so far she has no sign of them. BTW, yearly eye exams are part of senior care, too. Dogs need to be checked for glaucoma just as people are.

I think as NYC said, potential adopters of retirees need to be made fully aware of what it involves just as potential adopters of puppy mill dogs are. Put it out there, worse case scenario, so there are no surprises. It doesn't sound like you were very well prepared for what you were taking on.

I hope the breeder is more careful next time when she places this girl. It's not fair to anyone, especially this poor dog with her separation issues, to bounce back and forth.


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## bootoo (Sep 3, 2006)

I am sorry you have been through this. Even a short time with one can make sane rational decisions hard.

I have said that Bailey is a rescue, but I have not told the first part of our story - almost for shame on my part. I carry a guilt deal of guilt for a decision I had to make.

We got another rescue 2 weeks before Bailey, but there were issues. He was a biter - serious attacking biter. He even attacked - to the point of drawing blood - the in home trainer we hired to help us. I was willing to invest a lot of money and time into retraining this attack dog. (A 7 lb of white fluffy attack dog!)

We had been told by the rescue group of his issues, but, being super Mommy, I thought I could help him over come them!

My brother is an attorney and he advised me to not keep the dog after the trainer incident. (The dog "nipped" my brother when he came to see him!) My insurance agent is a friend and she discouraged keeping him. I consulted two more trainers and they were not optimistic about the retraining prospects.

I returned him - sobbing the whole time - and traded for my Bailey Boy. I know in my heart that it was the right thing for me and the dog - he was placed with a family with no children that lives out in the country and did not have to worry about him attacking neighborhood children. I still have strong guilt from time to time even though it worked out for the little boy. I feel I failed.

I guess what I am saying is that perhaps she will find the RIGHT home now. Not that you would not have given her a good home, but the fit was not right. There is a place for her - and perhaps a PERFECT dog for you somewhere else that would not come to you if she were in your home. I believe there is a reaason for all of this happening.


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

Oh no,I sure hated to open this thread & read it. I am wanting to adopt a retiree too & my main concern has been about Boo adapting to a new dog in the family. Ending up with a sick,debarked & troubled dog, never crossed my mind. I would not have expected that from a respectable breeder. A rescue maybe, but not a well known respectable breeder. I'm so sorry your adoption of Chastity did not work out,but I don't blame you at all. You were not aware of any of those issues when you agreed to adopt her. I do hope Chastity gets a good home. As for me, I have a serious case of cold feet now for sure.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I don't think you should feel badly about returning this dog. Most rescue groups won't even take in a dog who is a biter for liability reasons. Your brother was right to advise you to return the dog.

I believe things work out for the best. Had you not returned this dog, Bailey wold never have come into your life.


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## Deanna (Jan 14, 2005)

I can't imagine how hard it was for you to give her up, but you did the right thing. Bringing in a new dog is a big big adjustment for everyone, and sometimes it just doesn't work out. I am so sorry.









The breeder is the one who should feel bad, not you. It's one thing to take on those issues when you are prepared for them, but you were not told the details.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I was going to adopt Chastity, but my husband wouldn't let me, he said he felt bad 
taking a dog at 7 yrs of age away from the only home she knows, I tried so hard to talk him out of it, but he wouldn't budge!! I am so sorry this didn't work out for you, but I am so glad you told your story!!

I pray Chastity finds a new home









Thank You,
ANDREA~


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## Puddles Mom (Jun 20, 2004)

Sorry you had to deal with this. Sounds as if she needed a home where someone was retired themself. I don't blame you for returning her. Was the best for both of you.

I wanted to get a girl once for Puddles to play with, but changed my mine. I hate him being here all day alone, but after 3 years think he's doing okay with it. If your around Puddles with another dog, you can tell he's an only child. Acts like he don't know what to do and is not friendly, can be mean and really barks.

Good luck if you try another Malt.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> Oh no,I sure hated to open this thread & read it. I am wanting to adopt a retiree too & my main concern has been about Boo adapting to a new dog in the family. Ending up with a sick,debarked & troubled dog, never crossed my mind. I would not have expected that from a respectable breeder. A rescue maybe, but not a well known respectable breeder. I'm so sorry your adoption of Chastity did not work out,but I don't blame you at all. You were not aware of any of those issues when you agreed to adopt her. I do hope Chastity gets a good home. As for me, I have a serious case of cold feet now for sure.[/B]


I don't know if you really can call this dog sick and troubled. Debarked, yes. 

Dental problems and the beginnings of cataracts are normal in aging dogs. Potty training regressions are to be expected and it is often necessary to go back and retrain these dogs as if they are puppies. Even the Rhapsody website warns of housebreaking issues with their retirees. Separation issues also can be expected. Remember, being taken from one's home and put into a totally strange situation is a very traumatic experience for these dogs. All adult dogs require a lot of patience and a certain amount of retraining to make an adjustment into a new home.

Momtoboo, if you are having cold feet, you really need to think long and hard about this in my opinion. Adopting an adult dog from any situation is challenging and can be much harder than starting fresh with a puppy. It is much harder to break bad habits or change behavior that has become a part of who a dog is.

IMO, there isn't much difference between adopting a rescue or a retiree. I'd really recommend you get the book _Secondhand Dog _ by Carol Lee Benjamin to read before you make such a big decision. It will give you a better idea of the challenges you may face and how to handle them.


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

I'm pretty sure if I rehomed any one of my adult dogs, they would come across as troubled (and maybe even sick if their teeth are a factor). I think a breeders dogs are just as bonded to the breeder as our pets are to us (if they're raised in the home that is). My dogs in any new setting would probably pee and poop all over the place; they're completely paper trained here. My dogs would probably get a UTI or some other stress related ailment. My dogs are definitely not debarked (ask my neighbors).

Going to a new pack and a new territory is extremely unsettling for any dog of any age. Puppies adjust more quickly but adult dogs are just going to require a fairly lengthy committment. Sometimes they just fall into place and that's terrific. But, that's the exception I think and not the rule.

As LM said, it's just so important to understand all this before accepting a rescue, a rehomed dog, a retiree.

And I'm still sorry you went through this but grateful that we can talk about it and you can help others think through adoption before making their decision.


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## Jacki (Jul 13, 2006)

Oh, I'm so sorry that things did not go as you had hoped with Chastity.







Is Tammy planning to keep her now, or place her in another home? I hope that she will find the right place to spend the rest of her years, and that you will not beat yourself up about the situation. Thank you for sharing your story.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

[She is 7yrs old and I was told she was in perfect health and her teeth looked great. When I contacted her breeder to let her know what my vet said, she told me that her teeth were great for a toy dog her age. That to me is different then "her teeth look great". She also said that cataracts are normal for a dog her age. My vet however said that while there are a great many dogs with cataracts, it certainly is not the norm. He also really questioned her medical records that showed she had a cleaning last June. He said that as we all know, periodontal disease is the biggest health problem in toy dogs, but felt that what she had was worse than to be expected for a retired show dog of her age who had been having regular dental cleanings. So who is right? I was willing to deal with the behavioral issues but returned her to her breeder due to the health issues. Are her health issues what I should expect for Zoe when she is 7? [/QUOTE] 



If this retired girl is a champion, some breeders use UV lights to get halo's. Even though it is not a part of our Breed Standard, someone has taught all the judges that they have to have them to win. Hense, cataracts. Or UV blindness. I know of one breeder who debarks all her dogs. Not all of us do that. They shouldn't be allowed to be shown when they are altered in that fashion. But nothing is said about it.

A spayed female can have problems holding her urine. I had a standard poodle and an Airdale Terrier that were spayed and both have this problem. You have to give them estrogen pills to help with the problem. 

Teeth in toy dogs is a problem. A breeding female has puppies and cleans their poop and their pee for the first 3 to 4 weeks of their life. My girls love to give kisses and I can tell when they have been cleaning butt, so with that in mind I can see how her teeth got in the shape they are in. I am not excusing it, but giving you another perspective.

As for the anxiety of the dog, wouldn't you be a bit anxious if you were up rooted from your home of 7 years and put into a very different enviroment? Maltese want to please, so she is insecure because she doesn't know what is expected of her. 

All dogs in a new enviroment have to be taught where to go potty. Every household does it different. They need to get the hang of it. Puppies adjust much easier than adults and we don't expect as much out of a puppy as we do an older dog. JMO









If you are not happy with her you did the right thing in giving her back. 

Tina


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## flossysmom (Aug 4, 2006)

I think that you did nothing wrong, to send her back, You did what you feel is best and that is all that matters. Now...







I am in total shock over this whole disturbing post. I don't really post a whole lot, but honestly, this is terrible.
First, debarked, what is the real reason for this? There has got to more to it then just to make them quite in the ring.
Second, who would breed a dog that often, and until that age? Makes me wonder how much money was made from that poor girl.
Third, if this were anyone other than a known breeder, we would all be saying" sounds like a puppy mill to me". I am really upset








Okay I have said my peace for what it is worth. I do not mean to attack this particular breeder by no means. BUT...alot of ppl come here to learn, as I do. This is why there is so much confussion when people are looking to buy a puppy. These "big" breeders charge quite a bit of money for thier pups, and advertise that they are all loved and raised underfoot. Somehow or another I am not thinking this is the case. JMO









Again, sorry this happened to you and I do hope that Chasity gets a loving home where she can rest, and be papmered. I think she has done enough work by the sounds of it


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> I think that you did nothing wrong, to send her back, You did what you feel is best and that is all that matters. Now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...










Great post KIM<<<


ANDREA~


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

I would hate for readers on this site to think that all of us debark and keep dogs in a breeding program until they are seven years of age. My friends and I are very much against the practice of doing this to a dog. I do know some of the more popular breeders who do this, and as a matter of principal, I would not purchase a dog from them.

Just today, I went to the airport to pick up a champion female who is here for breeding to one of my boys. I have never met this breeder personally, but have great respect for her as a person and as a breeder. Her dog left home early this morning, and got to me mid afternoon. She was friendly and loving from the time I took her from her crate. She had no problem adapting to using a pad here. After reading this post, I even checked her teeth, and they are extremely clean and well cared for, and I know they were not cleaned just to come for this visit. She has a normal bark, but is very mannerly in its use. I just went into the kitchen for some water, and she and my male are curled up together on the bed. I doubt this girl will ever be put up for adoption, but if she did go, she is nothing like the one described in this post.


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

> I would hate for readers on this site to think that all of us debark and keep dogs in a breeding program until they are seven years of age. My friends and I are very much against the practice of doing this to a dog.[/B]


I know this must be true, but, we generally tend to hear a lot more about the bad experiences perhaps and that paints all breeders with a broad brush. As I mentioned, I know that my female retiree wasn't breeding after she was five years old and had already been spayed before she was placed up for adoption after she was six and a half years old. Placing her, was for her benefit and not the breeders. It was difficult for her in a home where the breeding program was ongoing and she was such a perfect little mother--a mother who wasn't having litters any longer and needed to tell the others what they were doing wrong. It was to her benefit to go to a retirement home where she could be totally a pet without the angst of puppies all around her. She is now eight and has no sign of cataracts although she is a retired champion. She wasn't debarked (can I say, sometimes I wish she were?







)

Debarking. I can get it, I really can, why it may be something someone _has _ to do if they have a large number of dogs and are in a residential area where folks are complaining. I would never do it--I would move first or rehome the dog.

UV lights? That's the first I've heard of this "halo" business and it is appalling. It needs broader exposure I think. *(jeepers I'm sorry--please don't get upset C&Z at all this discussion because none of it is a reflection on you--you definitely did the right thing, and were hurt in all this).* It's just a further discussion and it's enlightening I think.

But then, I think there are traits being bred for if not artifically induced, that are not true, old fashioned, beautiful Maltese as I have known them in my sixty years on this planet, and, that makes me very sad.

I wouldn't hesitate adopting another retiree if the opportunity presented itself. I only hope I get full disclosure prior to the adoption if there's some major alteration like debarking or physical illness like diabetes. That's all. All the rest (UTI, behavioral problems, cataracts, teeth) is fair game for a rehomed adult dog. 

I remain, so sorry still that you were put in this position C&Z and don't blame you one bit for returning her.


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## thelittlepet (Apr 18, 2006)

I am horrified to hear that a well known breeder debarks. I know mine certainly doesn't. 

As for health issues, my 10 1/2 year old malt always had dental problems, begining at puppyhood. Regular dentals and extractions were part of her life. However at that age her eyesight was still perfect with no sign of cateracts. Even my nearly 12 year old yorkie has perfect eyesight. 

I believe that if in your heart you know you can't keep a dog, it should go back as soon as you discover this as you did. This gives it the best possible chance for a new start elsewhere and as little time to feel displaced when it returns to the breeder. I feel badly for both of you. 
Aimee


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Thank you to all of you for your support & encouragement. This has really been devastating for me. I felt very ignorant about retirees after this experience and like a failure. After reading HappyB’s post I do feel better. Not all dogs react like mine to a new environment. However I do feel like I need to clarify that I was told Chastity had not displayed any of the behavioral issues at her 1st home. She really has a great personality and is very playful and inquisitive. I really liked that she also could be picked up in the middle of playing and nestle right in to be snuggled. I truly believe that given time, the behavioral issues could be corrected and were a result of being uprooted from the only home she has ever known. Again, I was willing to work through those. But it was the fact that my vet told me she would most likely be blind in a few years that made my final decision. I really don’t think her breeder knew about the cataract. Again my ignorance, should she have had a full vet exam prior to her coming to me or is that not standard protocol? I know that dogs adapt well to blindness, but because of my lifestyle (at least at this time) was afraid it would make it very difficult for her. She would need to be able to navigate 2 homes since my parents would have her while I’m at work. Also, I do visit friends’ homes frequently and would not be able to take her to a strange environment without causing her distress. Had I known in advance, I would not have agreed to take her knowing she would not be a good match for my lifestyle. I truly hope she finds a good home with someone whose lifestyle is more conducive to being in one home the majority of the time. I think she would be a great addition to a “stay at home” family. 

Also, I just want to let you know that her breeder was very quick to tell me she no longer debarks her dogs when I called her about it. She has moved to another area so apparently she had problems with previous 
neighbors.


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## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

<start rant>








This thread is causing me great pain! I feel great pain for the original poster and for highly-bred Malts in equal measure.

*Debarking *







by breeders







Still being carried out in this err... enlightened age







Hope there is a Vet involved somewhere along the line who is doing it purely in the interest of the animal, not the owner/breeder - but somehow, I doubt that.

I once came across a truly magnificent Rough Collie that had been debarked - Note: that does NOT necessarily mean the animal becomes silent. More often than not debarking only changes the volume and sound of the bark. In this case the poor thing would let out (quieter - admittedly) strangulated noises that sounded a bit like a Pharoah Hound. The sounds he made clearly distressed him as much as people listening to it - to what effect - I ask you? That poor boy was impossible to rehome (he sounds weird







) and lived out the rest of his life in an animal refuge that refuses to put animals to sleep for other than "end-of-natural-life" reasons. I bet he was just thrilled about that. 

I found this on toy-dog.co.uk 


> surgery does nothing to eliminate the underlying reasons for the dog’s constant barking. The dog is likely to continue to “bark” albeit at a lower volume because root causes of the unappreciated behavior are not addressed. This cuts against the potential benefits of the surgery as the real nature of the dog’s life is not changed—they still suffer from the same issues as before. Post-surgery, however, they suffer in relative silence, which decreases the owner’s impetus to explore what problems led to the errant behavior in the first place.[/B]


Dogs bark - it's what they do - it's their job - get over it. Don't keep packs of dogs in areas where their natural instinct to "sound-off" disturbs the neighbours - find a more appropriate location to carry out... whatever it is you do. 

*Halo*
I had never heard of that until a novice owner on this forum asked about her dog's eyes. A breeder SM member called that the "halo effect" and said it was "highly desirable". I do not believe it figures in any of the various Kennel Clubs' exhalted standards - but I guess, only time and owner/breeder pressure will tell on that one. 

I looked at my little man and thought,"That's another of the Malt beauty hurdles you fell at, my sweetheart - and why not? there's very little about you that is "Standard" EXCEPT you're the most beautiful, gorgeous, sweetest dog I have ever had the privilege to be loved by." 

Nevertheless, I did a bit of research about it. OMG they shine UV light in the animal's eyes, do they? - burn off a bit of the hair around the sockets, do they? How often do they do that I wonder? I would like to suggest these people put themselves under a sunlamp and stare at the light source WITHOUT wearing protective specs. 



> ... But then, I think there are traits being bred for if not artifically induced, that are not true, old fashioned, beautiful Maltese as I have known them in my sixty years on this planet, and, that makes me very sad...[/B]


From my "very nearly" 60 years - I totally agree.








Now - I'm off to look for a retiree that's been debarked, blinded by UV, permanently caged etc... ... ... and is looking to find a human who will care about the quality of the rest of his/her life. But, I'll bet Chastity's breeder would not export her - Oh No - that would not be in the animal's best interest. Sheesh.
<end rant>








Back to Picture Posts - less controversy there.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I believe there must be reasons why breeders chose to debark. I must admit that I don't know enough about this practice but it is something I would never do myself. However, in one of the posts above it was mentioned that the breeder did this because of neighbours. I can relate to that since I am on the hunt for a new home and it has been tough. I am blessed with wonderful neighbours who love my furkids and don't mind the barking - you can hear the barking from the outside especially when they run up to the door. It has been very difficult for me to find a new home as I am looking for a place close to the city and within my price range that permits pets. I have to find one with nice neighbours who aren't going to complain and cause a big fuss. The last thing I want is for some psyhco neighbour doing something to my kids.


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## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

Anit-bark collars may very well work in your situation.








Or, indeed, some behavioural training








OOPS - I should be concentrating on the picture posts or feeding my furbabes - bad, bad, mummy that I am.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> Anit-bark collars may very well work in your situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You must have misunderstood me. I am very well aware of methods to work around barking. I personally don't even like anti-bark collars as many of them sends an electric shock to the dog. I find a little water bottle or simple "no" works much better. I don't actually have a barking problem with my kids but like most dogs .. when someone comes up to the door .. they run up and bark.

I don't condon to debarking and as my post indicates - it is not something I would do myself. I think most pet owners will not have a need for this especially with a small number of pets. Breeders with a larger number may since 50-60 dogs barking is not the same as 2 dogs barking. I just think we need to hear their side before we all jump in and attack.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> ....
> Also, I just want to let you know that her breeder was very quick to tell me she no longer debarks her dogs when I called her about it. She has moved to another area so apparently she had problems with previous
> neighbors.[/B]


Did she happen to say why she failed to tell you about Chastity's debarking? Even though I certainly don't condone debarking, I am more concerned that she didn't mention this to you.


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## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

> I personally don't even like anti-bark collars as many of them sends an electric shock to the dog.[/B]


But many of them just squirt water or make a single sharp sound. 


> Breeders with a larger number may since 50-60 dogs barking is not the same as 2 dogs barking. I just think we need to hear their side before we all jump in and attack.[/B]


Two breeders who do not condone these practices have said their piece - and "fair dues" to them. Let's see if any of those who do condone debarking and/or artificial halos have anything to say.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I just wanted to mention that just because a dog has the beginnings of cataracts doesn't mean she has to go blind. Dogs can have cataracts removed just like people can. The surgery isn't cheap, however, but it might be worth it to someone who is considering adopting Chastity to look into.

I personally don't condone debarking, but I don't feel it is any more cruel than declawing a cat which I also strongly oppose. I'd guess many of those who are horrified at the thought of debarking have had their cats declawed.

From an outsider's perspective without knowing all the facts or hearing from the breeder, it does seem like the biggest reason this adoption failed was lack of full disclosure.


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## PuttiePie (Nov 22, 2006)

What a difficult and trying time for you. I am so sorry for you both. Soon maybe some of the pain from this will dissipate and you will begin to feel better. Don't feel badly, you tried...Feel better soon. xoxoxoxo Puttie and Nanci


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

> I personally don't condone debarking, but I don't feel it is any more cruel than declawing a cat which I also strongly oppose. I'd guess many of those who are horrified at the thought of debarking have had their cats declawed.[/B]


I am also opposed to declawing and never declawed my cat. I must admit that I have a lot of wrecked furniture from his claws. I have those cat posts out for him but it's not the same as the leather couches or pianos









On the other hand, my boyfriend has two cats who have both been declawed as babies. They seem to be well adjusted and don't mind it at all. I wish I could only know how they feel.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

From an outsider's perspective without knowing all the facts or hearing from the breeder, it does seem like the biggest reason this adoption failed was lack of full disclosure.
[/QUOTE]
I agree completely. Something as simple as "laying ALL the cards out" is the difference between her forever home, and being shuffled around. When we have a "special" dog in rescue, they are only placed in a very special forever home. One that knows the needs, and has experience with them. Anything less is not fair to the fluffy nor the adoptive parent.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=313434
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not so much how cats feel afterwards, it's the procedure itself that I believe is cruel. It is an amputation of the last joint of each toe - ten amputations in all. It's illegal in many European countries and the USHS opposes it, but it is still routinely done in our country.

To me, it is as just as much of a mutilation as debarking is.


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## NYC Neighborhood Dogs (Nov 12, 2006)

> They seem to be well adjusted and don't mind it at all. I wish I could only know how they feel.[/B]


Look carefully. If we aren't familiar with normal clawed cats, I mean truly familiar as a cat person, one wouldn't necessarily notice their inability to balance if they get on a slippery surface or climb too high or jump and can't get a grip, but, most won't jump. Most will walk as if walking on tip toes because for their entire lives (I'm going to presume to say by observation I know how they feel) they feel like something is un-natural and they can't quite walk right. Not to mention a stronger propensity to bite (because they cannot claw to defend themselves) and a correlation between declawing and cats soiling outside their boxes.

Ooops. Where are we going here?







Maybe we need a separate discussion on physical alterations of pets for showing or selling? And some thoughts on the power of consumers, adopters everywhere to stop the madness by getting back to basics and not buying into the madness of such practices as burning eyes to achieve "that Maltese look" which used to be simply there or not with good pigmentation and enough of the whites of the eyes showing to enhance the contrast (or miniaturizing already toy sized breeds because it's a popular fad and easy sell) ? One of the attractions of the Maltese, for me, originally, was that there were no physical alterations, no ear or tail cropping.

BTW, only commenting on the declawing to share because I'm very familiar with cats, purebred, feral outdoors, orphaned or not, clawed and not, having observed and cared for a minimum of hundreds over the years (not all my own).


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

Off-topic: Declawing of Cats (sorry for the hijack)

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge about declawing of cats. Now that you mentioned these differences, I think I know what you are talking about! I have never been a cat person and really only am familiar with my one CLAWED cat. He walks very well and has great balance. I catch him walking along the stair banister and jumping on counters. He always goes in the litter box and never makes a mistake.

My boyfriend's two family cats are very different. They do walk on tippy toes and often seem to claw and rub their paws at nothing. They have boo boos outside the litter box once in a while. They never jump on the counters or walk on anything high. My boyfriend's mom always told me that my cat (Meow Mix) was not well behaved or trained properly.


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## lonestar (Dec 21, 2004)

I'm sorry that things didn't work out







. Like I posted before.It's take lots of patients whether it's an rescue or retiree. Not all people are the adopting types nor the fostering type. Like people that work in a nursing home.It takes a special person to do this line of work.We are not all made of that cloth. You tried and it didn't work for you. Now you know and perhaps someone considering this will rethink it themselves. But hopefully there will always be people that can and will adopt these special furangels. I guess we were lucky. Our adopted girl is a doll and in good health.She does poop on the carpet and chews things up here in there but she'll learn in time. I hope.


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## Cathy (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm so sorry that things didn't work out for you. I'm sure it was a really tough decision not to take on a retiree with health problems. I hope that the next Maltese you add to your family is the perfect fit.

Cathy


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## starry (Sep 4, 2006)

I am sorry for all the heartache you all have endured.








These decisions of a 2nd dog are hard and even harder if you have to do what you knew was right for yourselves.
Please don't feel bad, you tried.
I'm sorry for how bad you feel/felt but you did your best.
Maybe she just thought she was at dogcamp.


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## Elly B. (Oct 27, 2006)

My neighbors when I was small debarked their dog, who was a problem barker (but they never did anything to try to address it!) He just laid down and wouldn't eat, and eventually died within a few months. I think it's a horrible thing to do to a dog, but my personal experience colored it.

I am also vehemently opposed to declawing. I don't consider myself much of a cat person and I mostly don't care for them at all, but I've been AROUND a lot of cats - from half-wild barn cats in their element to declawed, pampered persians. My parents wanted to declaw their cat when I was in high school, and I took him away to a no-snuff shelter when they wouldn't call it off due to my objections. (they went and got him back. He's still with them - with claws.) I really think a cat's better off in a shelter - or homeless - than declawed. It's dangerous to let a declawed cat outside, and it's cruel to keep a cat indoors ALL the time. Just IMO. I'm sure there have been cats that liked being indoors all the time. But mostly they are not ok with that.

I'll even go a step further and say that I hate ALL artificial 'modifications' (mutilations) to an animal. Debarking, tail docking, the thing where they cut the ear to make it stand up, declawing.... the only one I condone is sterilization, and it's mainly because there are so many homeless pets. I don't LIKE sterilization - but I admit its necessity.


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