# Gingivitis!



## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

I am hoping you all can provide answers for me. I am very upset and confused and I trust the experiences of you all more than I do our vet at times! 

My Zoe had her yearly dental in February, 2 months later in April while getting her rabies shot another vet in the group gave her a brief exam and discovered gingivitis. How is this possible?? I was upset then but now even more so because even though they checked her teeth and gums in May and again the end of June, yesterday she was checked again and they said she has "erosion" of one of her incisors and it will have to be removed. Also they now tell me she will always have gingivitis & that there is no way to cure it totally. 

I am very suspicious as to why she would get gingivitis only 2 months after having her dental. Maybe I just want to blame someone because I am so worried and scared. What do you all think?


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

Do you brush Zoe's teeth regularly? Keeping up with regular brushing will help maintiain good oral health. Although our late Oscar had really bad teeth despite regular brushing. Our vet said that just like people, some get more frequent dental/gum problems than others. I'm sure others with more experience will have good suggestions for you.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

How old is she? 

Some dogs just have bad mouths. If you can't brush her teeth, I like the gel products you can rub on the gums. Derma Pet makes one I like. 
http://www.dermapet.com/prod-13.html

You may also discuss "pulse therapy" with antibiotics with your vet...for animals with severe gingivitis and dental disease this helps keep the bacteria load down. 

My Jonathan had yearly dentals from when I got him at 18 months until he was 10. Since then he has dental cleanings every 6 months. This has made a positive difference in his level of disease when its time for the next dental. It is important to keep that bacteria down as it can effect their kidneys, hearts, and other internal organs.


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

QUOTE (cleooscar @ Sep 25 2009, 03:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833683


> Do you brush Zoe's teeth regularly? Keeping up with regular brushing will help maintiain good oral health. Although our late Oscar had really bad teeth despite regular brushing. Our vet said that just like people, some get more frequent dental/gum problems than others. I'm sure others with more experience will have good suggestions for you.[/B]



She has a tiny mouth (she is 3 lbs and a tad overweight) which makes brushing hard but I use a dental wipe wrapped around my finger daily and feed her Science Diet Prescription T/D( tartar control). A


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

QUOTE (JMM @ Sep 25 2009, 03:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833687


> How old is she?
> 
> Some dogs just have bad mouths. If you can't brush her teeth, I like the gel products you can rub on the gums. Derma Pet makes one I like.
> http://www.dermapet.com/prod-13.html
> ...


She will be 6 yrs in December. At this point Im questioning if the dental she had 2 mths prior to the gingivitis diagnosis was done properly or if short cuts were taken... Maybe I just want to blame the vet in order to feel some better..


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Petzlife oral gel has grapefruit seed extract which is good for bacteria. Coconut oil is anti microbial. You can rub it right on your dog's teeth.

Dental problems can be genetic. 

Please don't get annoyed with me, but if you are feeding this food, the ingredients in the Hills T/D are:

_*Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Corn*, Chicken By-Product Meal, Powdered Cellulose, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soybean Mill Run, *Soybean Oil,* Chicken Liver Flavor, Calcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & *Citric Acid*, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract. _


What exactly is in this food that helps prevent tooth decay? Did the vet tell you which ingredients help with dental problems?


I do not know much about gum disease or tooth decay in dogs, but I know something about it in humans because I have horrible dental issues due to undiagnosed celiac disease, and not taking care of my teeth when I was young. I have been researching this for a while, and this is what I have been told to do by holistic people. 



*A List of Some Foods To Avoid*
*Sugar* – White Sugar, Brown Sugar, Organic Sugar, Evaporated Cane Juice, Corn Syrup, etc. 

*Grain Products in excess* – Wheat, *Rice*, *Corn*, Oats, Barley, etc. *Citric Acid* (made from corn/wheat)


*Hydrogenated Oils* - like low quality vegetable oils such as vegetable oil, *soybean oil*, crisco, canola, and safflower oil

Take a Calcium supplement, a Vitamin C supplement, and a Coenzyme Q10 supplement. 


That above advice is for people. Maybe it can apply to dogs, maybe not. Perhaps a holistic vet can give you advice for your dog

I am not telling you what to feed your dog. I am NOT recommending a high protein diet, but what I am saying is maybe consider a food that has real meat, poultry or fish, plus potato or sweet potato, instead of corn and rice and chicken-by products.

Here's some natural dental products for dogs: 

http://www.naturalpetmarket.com/category_d...l=Dental%20CareI hope this helps. Dental problems are no fun at all. Nikki doesn't have them, but I do and I hate them. Good luck with it. I hope it all gets resolved.


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 25 2009, 07:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833758


> Petzlife oral gel has grapefruit seed extract which is good for bacteria. Coconut oil is anti microbial. You can rub it right on your dog's teeth.
> 
> Dental problems can be genetic.
> 
> ...



I am very thankful for any thoughts or suggestions you can give & am not annoyed at all! My vet suggested the SD T/D & to be honest Im not sure what in it helps with the decay, only that it has a very crunchy/grainy type texture so Im thinking maybe the abrassion helps with the tarter & plaque build up. At this point Im blaming myself & the vet & thinking this could have possibly been avoided. Im just suspicious & paranoid I guess. 

I see that you live in Atlanta? We are in Gainesville which is only 50 miles north of Atlanta.

I did pick up the Petzlife gel today after work and will start with it tonight. I wanted to get the C.E.T Chews also but the Petsmart here did not have them.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

the T/D is shaped to cover the tooth and scrape tartar is why it is used. 

Petzlife gel has rosemary in it so i no longer use it as demi would throw up on it and i am not a fan of rosemary

Once they have periodontal disease it does NOT go away and why dentals are so important starting at age 2-3 years old - What happens is when you have a dental done it removes all the tartar and sometimes all that is holding the tooth in place is the tartar build up. Small dogs have a small bone to tooth ratio so any bone loss results in loose teeth and it spreads pretty quickly throughout the mouth. If your dog is a tiny then the mouth is tiny thus crowding of teeth thus periodontal disease. The best thing to use is chlorhexedine which is what the dentist and non-anesthetic dentals are done with - they sell the pet wipes at dr foster and smith with chlorhexedine in them and chlorhexedine kills the bacteria in the mouth. Ideally you should brush after each meal as after 8 hr that bacteria will turn into tartar and the prob is the bacteria gets below the gum line when the dog has pockets thus causing decay into the bone thus loose teeth. 

I learned alot about this as i failed my demi in not getting dental done soon enough which i should have started her at one to two years waited until she was 4 and she had 27 extractions and has periodontal disease. I even took her to a board certified dentist which i will only go to as they have digital xray machines that can easily see below the gum line and determine if there is a prob so what i suspect is your dog had a prob with that tooth and they did not see it on xrays or they just ignored the prob - most vet offices a vet tech does the dentals not the vet so why i choose to pay a little more to go to a bc dentist as he does the dental not a tech - he went to school to further education in dentistry in dogs and cats. If they do not do the ultrasonic correctly and leave on the tooth too long they can loosen the tooth from the bone as well so this is a very critical thing and why some small pet owners prefer hand scaling to the ultrasonic machine. This could very well be as well why tooth was loose after the dental. Also if they did not do a very thorough cleaning then the gums will still be swollen -- Demi is at a year and her gums are not swollen and she has severe periodontal disease and she does not have any other loose teeth in the 15 she now has so i know it was done correctly. At the time i took her to him she had loose teeth with in a few days getting blood work and urinalysis there was more so i know it can happen fast. I learned the hard way  My friend took two maltese to him a week later and he was very honest and said her boy did not need dental and her girl did and she did not lose any teeth but they were 2 years old only as i told her what happened to demi and she went in asap with her malts. 

DD just had her dental with him and only lost 5 teeth so each dog is so different 

The cet chews have chlorhexedine in them 

Also I like the oxyfresh gel 

You can even use a qtip to get into her tiny mouth but i use gauze with oxyfresh and i use the chlorhexedine pet wipes as well. and they will get dentals yearly after this  

The way you know if a dog has periodontal disease as well is if they have high globulins on their blood work 



QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 25 2009, 09:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833787


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 25 2009, 07:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833758





> Petzlife oral gel has grapefruit seed extract which is good for bacteria. Coconut oil is anti microbial. You can rub it right on your dog's teeth.
> 
> Dental problems can be genetic.
> 
> ...



I am very thankful for any thoughts or suggestions you can give & am not annoyed at all! My vet suggested the SD T/D & to be honest Im not sure what in it helps with the decay, only that it has a very crunchy/grainy type texture so Im thinking maybe the abrassion helps with the tarter & plaque build up. At this point Im blaming myself & the vet & thinking this could have possibly been avoided. Im just suspicious & paranoid I guess. 

I see that you live in Atlanta? We are in Gainesville which is only 50 miles north of Atlanta.

I did pick up the Petzlife gel today after work and will start with it tonight. I wanted to get the C.E.T Chews also but the Petsmart here did not have them.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

here is a list of board certified dentists 

http://www.avdc-dms.org/dms/diplomates.cfm

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2089&aid=379

http://www.dentalvet.com/vets/periodontics...tal_disease.htm


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Edited: With all due respect, I don't buy it. The T/D food may be abrasive enough to get the tartar off, but at the same time it might be irritating the dog's gums. Abrasions and irritation of the gums can cause gum infections. 

What type of hard, abrasive food do humans eat to help lose tartar and plaque buildup around their teeth? None that I am aware of. We floss, and not too harshly, because flossing too vigorously can irritate the gums.

If it were my dog, I'd put it on a good canned food that had a good protein and didn't contain corn.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

yeah I am 50/50 on this myself but have read the soft food gets below the gum line easier than hard food thus causing more problems -- I have also read raw diets that are fed are suppose to cause less periodontal probs but then i met a golden retriever owner where she only fed raw and gave bone marrow to chew on and her golden where as big dogs do not have periodontal like the little ones do still had to have 27 teeth removed so left me to beleive it is all genetics like humans some humans build up more tartar on their teeth than others which also is a sign of heart disease as plaque build up on teeth is same as in arteries and my dad is an example as he has periodontal and he is neurotic about his teeth and had to have a double bypass two years ago due to blockage so i believe it to be true. 

It is important to do dentals as we had a yorkie on our group break her jaw on a piece of kibble as owner did not get dentals done and she got such bad bone loss that she broke her jaw and that is very painful. 

If you think about it they have the same teeth we do and we get dental cleanings 2-3 times a year and we brush and floss our teeth regularly so why would they be any different - the only difference is we eat more sugary diets so we have cavities which they do not tend to get but as far as bacteria and tartar they get the same as us 

someone said once we do not brush out teeth with oreo cookies so why would kibble be better at removing tartar off teeth lol - makes sense but i do believe it makes sense soft food can get under the gum line easier than hard food but then again hard food over time can affect the kidneys - always a tough call so many i know feed hard in am and soft in pm to not affect kidneys as much 

my friends yorkie has 25% use of his kidney and she goes to a specialist and this specialist in new york told her that dogs should not be on kibble diets their whole life for this reason  also another friend of mine had a cat for years and it died of kidney failure due to a life long kibble diet so she now feeds her cats only wet food. 

It is so hard to know what is right and what is wrong sometimes 

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 25 2009, 11:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833852


> Edited: With all due respect, I don't buy it. The T/D food may be abrasive enough to get the tartar off, but at the same time it might be irritating the dog's gums. Abrasions and irritation of the gums can cause gum infections.
> 
> What type of hard, abrasive food do humans eat to help lose tartar and plaque buildup around their teeth? None that I am aware of. We floss, and not too harshly, because flossing too vigorously can irritate the gums.
> 
> If it were my dog, I'd put it on a good canned food that had a good protein and didn't contain corn.[/B]


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I guess my take on all this is that I would want to find a way to prevent it from recurring instead of trying to fix the problem after it happens. 

Keeping the gut and the mouth free from bad bacteria is helpful. Probiotics, coconut oil, digestive enzymes, things like that, would help. I would imagine that a dog with gingivitis who eats hard kibble must have mouth pain! Ouch! Have you ever had a gum infection and tried to chew on almonds! Yikes! _That is why I suggested a softer food so that the gums would be soothed_. All types of food can lodge in the areas of the mouth, but if there is bacterial prevention going on by way of nutrition and supplements, the risk of infections would be minimized.

I am sorry if I sound arrogant and terse at times. 

It's just that I feel really sorry for these poor doggies, and I just don't understand some of the advice, treatment, and suggestions that are given by the traditional medical community. 

It seems like most of that Hills/Science diet prescription food is similar regarding quality, no matter which illness it is prescribed for. It's made up of the cheap by-products of big agriculture/food processing, with a bunch of vitamins dumped in. IMO it's horrible food, and such a $$ ripoff. I can't imagine spending hard-earned money for substandard food like that. 

I am not a nutritionist, just interested in nutrition and I help people when I can. When people or dogs have health issues, I always look at what the dog/person is eating first thing, and then go from there. Humans are omnivores too, and if we ate a daily meal of brewer's rice (leftover rice from food processing-not really food, but a byproduct) corn, chicken by product, and soy, we would probably have dental issues, too. 

Dr. Weston Price, a dentist, traveled the world for 10 years and studied people, their diet, and their teeth. He wrote an incredible book called Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. His conclusion was that people who ate little or no grains always had the best teeth and the best health. I really believe that the same applies to dogs. And you don't have to feed your dog high protein/high fat foods just to eliminate grains. There are other non-grain carbs and lean proteins that can take the place of high fat meats and grains to keep the protein levels in the moderate range.

Nikki has never really eaten kibble, always canned or home cooked soft food and probiotics and coconut oil. She's not had a dental yet. She has no tartar. I brush her teeth at least every other day, and she gets beef tendons to gnaw on. But she does have tearstaining, which I still can't completely get rid of.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

my dee dee has periodontal and she gets coconut oil and probiotics daily  and i brush her teeth daily so even with that they still need professional cleanings like we get for our teeth 

you are correct as my own dentist said that grains and carbs contribute to the prob as i asked him about it and he said yes if you go to bed after eating chips, wheat thins, etc then the food converts to sugar in your mouth thus causing issues as he said sometimes he brushes teeth before bed then craves a snack and eats chips and he said that is the worst you can do as those carbs can cause probs. I always brush my dogs teeth right before bed for this reason same as my own

How old is Nikki? How much does she weigh? The tinier ones have the issue and the issue comes into play around 2-3 years of age and you may just be lucky to have one that is not genetically predisposed as there are many that are not but some are not so lucky. 

I agree diet is key for alot of health things but as much as i hate to admit it a vet food is keeping my boy yorkie from being a very sick boy and has for 3 years and anytime he gets the slightest people food he ends up violently vomitting so i do think it has its place as much as i hate to admit it. 

I have 3 dogs and my demi had 27 extractions at age 4, my dee dee had 5 extractions at age 5 and dex goes next month for dental so each dog is genetically different 

Now demi does eat newmans own organic which is high in grains and i was freaking out trying to find her a better food and going to honest kitchen possibly but when i met the lady with the golden retriever who fed raw for 4 years no kibble nothing no grains and her large dog had to have 27 teeth removed like my demi i calmed down as she told me it is genetic do not stress about the food so much as her dog never had one grain ever and chewed on bone marrow bones as well and large dogs do not have the teeth issues small dogs do and she brushed her dogs teeth too - so the only thing that would have prevented possibly our dogs from having loose teeth and periodontal disease would have been to have them in for dentals at age one which i should have done but demi's tartar did not even look that bad but I knew i was in trouble when i felt a loose tooth so i went to dentist over vet to save the teeth and he could still not save them. Also, i used petzlife gel for a year religiously that year after vet said she needs a dental so had i had the dental and not just relied on petzlife gel she may have not lost as many teeth  


QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 26 2009, 08:34 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833931


> I guess my take on all this is that I would want to find a way to prevent it from recurring instead of trying to fix the problem after it happens.
> 
> Keeping the gut and the mouth free from bad bacteria is helpful. Probiotics, coconut oil, digestive enzymes, things like that, would help. I would imagine that a dog with gingivitis who eats hard kibble must have mouth pain! Ouch! Have you ever had a gum infection and tried to chew on almonds! Yikes! _That is why I suggested a softer food so that the gums would be soothed_. All types of food can lodge in the areas of the mouth, but if there is bacterial prevention going on by way of nutrition and supplements, the risk of infections would be minimized.
> 
> ...


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Genetics play a huge part in dental issues. My entire family has dental/periodontal issues. 

Nikki is almost 2 and she weighs 5 lbs. Maybe she will develop tartar someday, who knows? I'm trying to be careful with her teeth, as the vet wants to avoid giving her anesthesia because of her MVD. 

I guess that I am much more concerned about grains in the diet than I was before, because I have been reading so much about them over the last month. And not just holistic/alternative stuff, but many scientific studies and papers/articles/books by M.D.'s, Scientists, Endocrinologists, and Nutritionists. Actually, I've been reading more Traditional Medical studies than I have alternative.

Regardless of the mainstream recommendations to eat a lot of whole grains/lowfat food and the USDA Food pyramid, from all of my research, I have come to this conclusion about grains, even whole grains: The less they are ingested, the better. 

And that goes for dogs as well as people. If anyone disagrees and cares to discuss privately, then they should be able to provide independently funded, long-term scientific studies to back up their opinions because I have a lot of evidence of my conclusions.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

the mvd should not be a huge concern dd has mvd and went under anesthesia a month ago and did beautifully so do not let that scare you -- she has been under for spay as well as dental now and she is 5 

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 26 2009, 10:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833973


> Genetics play a huge part in dental issues. My entire family has dental/periodontal issues.
> 
> Nikki is almost 2 and she weighs 5 lbs. Maybe she will develop tartar someday, who knows? I'm trying to be careful with her teeth, as the vet wants to avoid giving her anesthesia because of her MVD.
> 
> ...


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

also my friend i posted that took her two maltese to the bc dentist we go to she feeds no grains only raw and her dogs chew on bone marrow and one of her malts needed a dental at 2 and the other did not and they are from the same litter and i do not believe she brushes their teeth as she feels the bone marrow chewing helps remove tartar as many raw feeders believe so i think it has alot more to do with genetics and brushing and dentist tech told me it is really hard to brush a small dogs teeth like you would your own to prevent gum disease and why dentals are so critical as you cannot possibly get the teeth real good like need be to remove tartar and on some things i will debate with the vet practice but this one as have seen with demi i have to agree that dentals are instrumental in toy breeds to prevent tooth loss and jaw breakage from loss of bone as they do not have much bone to start with to hold the teeth in and i do not believe non- anesthetic are the best option and may be a false sense as the teeth look good above the gum line but below is the most critical and also some things like abscess teeth cannot be seen by a human eye and can usually only be noted by digital xrays and abscess teeth are very painful 

There are things that can promote healthier gums i found out but too chicken to try myself is CoQ10 

on a human note my one friend is 52 and has never had a cavity and she brushes then flosses and then uses baking soda every night but i have read not good to use baking soda with dogs 

The reason many argue raw is best is the meat has natural enzymes which help in preventing tartar build up and why they use enzymatic tooth pastes for dogs. I have heard of people using enzymes to brush the teeth and coconut oil as well. This is why i was so shocked that my friend and this golden pet owner who only fed raw no grains there dogs needed dentals and had gum disease as i always thought grains were the culprit myself which i am sure they have alot to do with it but the key is brush brush brush per dentist. The tech even said you do not even need to use any tooth paste as we as humans use it as it makes our breath smell good but she said just wiping or brushing teeth is most important after eating


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Baking soda is great stuff for teeth. CO Q10 is a great supplement to take for dental esp if you don't eat a lot of meat.


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

QUOTE


> She has a tiny mouth (she is 3 lbs and a tad overweight) which makes brushing hard but I use a dental wipe wrapped around my finger daily and feed her Science Diet Prescription T/D( tartar control).[/B]


Napoleon has a tiny mouth too (and tiny teeth). He's 3 1/4 lbs. Even my finger is a bit big to reach his back teeth (wrapped with dental wipe) but I found a very small toothbrush made for kids that has a very tiny head. I've been able to use it to brush his teeth and even reach the back teeth. As for Petzlife Oral Gel, Raine was sensitive to it but it didn't bother Pasha or Napoleon. If you use it, I'd suggest not to use it with an empty stomach (i.e., brush her teeth after meal) to avoid any upset tummy.

I wonder if it's possible that the gingivitis happened because the dentist aggrevated the gums during dental work?? Plaine speculation, of course.

Our vet gave us a bag of Medical Dental formula after Pasha had his dental done in the spring. I never gave it to him even though the vet said it's good for his teeth, blah blah. I'm just sticking to his NB Duck and Potatoes and Orijen 6 Fish food, treats and regular teeth brushing. He didn't need dental until he turned 4 years old and last month our vet gave her thumb's up so I don't think he'll need another one for a few years (I hope).


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

Thanks so much to all of you. This is all so confusing... Zoe started getting dentals at age 1 and has gotten them each year since then. Her prior owner/breeder insisted on this & realy drove this point home to me. 

Since this past April when the gingivitis was discovered she went in every 2 months to have her teeth & gums checked by the vet. So Im upset that this tooth has erosion... 

I think what is upsetting me the most is the thought that she will ALWAYS have this gingivitis now & theres nothing that will cure it or reverse it. I understand it this is a very low grade dental infection & not full blown peridontal disease so Im baffled as to why theres nothing that will reverse it.

Can you all recommend probiotics to give her? I know that yogurt is a good way for humans to have it but is that ok to feed Maltese? Also do any of you know of a bc dentist in my area (northeast Georgia)?


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 27 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834288


> Thanks so much to all of you. This is all so confusing... Zoe started getting dentals at age 1 and has gotten them each year since then. Her prior owner/breeder insisted on this & realy drove this point home to me.
> 
> Since this past April when the gingivitis was discovered she went in every 2 months to have her teeth & gums checked by the vet. So Im upset that this tooth has erosion...
> 
> ...


Sorry, I don't believe that it cannot be reversed or at least reduced. There are things that can be given to help the dog's immune system but you will have to be open to using alternative medicine. Minerals,especially calcium are very important to dental health. Do you have access to raw, unpasteurized milk from a farm? Also green leafy veggies have calcium and minerals. 

There is a holistic veterinarian in Atlanta area whom I haven't tried yet, but I've heard she is very good. Dr. Kimberly Stagmeier - 770-754-1255. Maybe she can help you, even a phone consultation. I think she is in Alpharetta.

I don't know any dentists in NE Georgia, but University of Georgia Veterinary School in Athens should be able to give you a referral. If it were me, I would want them to recommend a good *canned* *no grain food*, like Natural Balance duck/potato or venison/sweetpotato, or fish/sweet potato, something like that, or if you have time, a home-cooked diet. I wouldn't feed Hills or S/D to my Nikki. 

Can someone else jump in here to recommed a good canned food with no grains?? 

I am not a nutritionist, but I can tell you what products I give Nikki to help her fight viral/bacterial infections and to keep her teeth in shape. Yes, probiotics and yogurt-especially goat's milk yogurt is fine for a dog. I like the probiotics powders because the probiotics-the good bacteria, is more concentrated than in the yogurt. 

These are immune system, bacterial/viral fighting things that I give Nikki. I buy the first 3 from www.Vitacost.com They have pretty good prices and are located in NC so they ship fairly quickly to Georgia

Nutiva Coconut Oil. 
I rub 1/8 teaspoon along Nikki's gums and teeth. (Dogs usually love it, and I use it every day in my own cooking. I love it and it is so healthy)

Jarrow Petdophilus probiotic powder. 
Dosage on package

Symbiotics Colostrum Powder.
I give Nikki 1/4 teaspoon a day.

COQ10 From Only Natural Pet Store.Com
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_deta...k=6875&mf=2
1 a day

I really hope that your furbaby will feel better soon. Please keep us updated. I'm glad to help, anytime. 

If anyone else here has some more holistic remedies, please jump in and offer recommendations. My brain is fuzzy today.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ask your vet but COQ10 is great for healthy gums but i am just skiddish about it myself as i am paranoid with some things but many recommended this to me that know a ton about nutrition. I am just brushing every night and sometime twice a day. I was reading all info i posted links and it did say gingivitis is reverseable it is periodontal disease that is not so sorry about that - I would just brush after each meal as i feed twice a day to keep it down and do dentals once a year. She will be ok -- the one thing the dentist told me is be prepared many small dogs end up with no teeth which freaked me out but i know many that live a normal healthy life and he said guess what NO ANESTHESIA or dentals if no teeth lol - some do dentals every 6 mos with show dogs and some do monthly non-anesthetic cleanings or 6 month non anesthetic and every 2 years dentals under anesthesia. It just depends on how neurotic you want to be with it -- I personally am taking mine once a year to dentist to have them checked and if they need it i am having dentals done. 

Do not let them EVER talk you into dental vaccine as that stuff has alot of side effects and only been around for 2-3 years. 

It sounds like you have been doing everything correctly unlike me as i waited too long but maybe you want to check into a bc dentist instead of vet as honestly I do not think she should have inflamation after a few months from dental as my girls were pretty bad and they don't so it could be the tech that is doing it is not that great so maybe the next dental have a bc dentist do it and see if you see a difference -- they are not cheap as it runs $600 here in cali with no extractions but to me is well worth it 

I use dds plus probiotics from vitamin shoppe - i give 2 capsules a day in am before breakfast. Honestly though nothing is going to replace regular brushing  use gauze though as the tooth brushes if your dog thrashes around can damage their gums and cause more probs and much easier to do a better job with gauze around your finger or the chorhexedine pet wipes 


QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 27 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834288


> Thanks so much to all of you. This is all so confusing... Zoe started getting dentals at age 1 and has gotten them each year since then. Her prior owner/breeder insisted on this & realy drove this point home to me.
> 
> Since this past April when the gingivitis was discovered she went in every 2 months to have her teeth & gums checked by the vet. So Im upset that this tooth has erosion...
> 
> ...


----------



## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834476


> yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin[/B]


Where do you get the probiotic powder and is it a specific brand? I give our gang probiotic yogurt, just the commercial brand Danone Activia, which these guys love. I don't think I can find goat yogurt around here but a powder kind seems convenient to me.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

if your dog is doing good on the yogurt then you should be ok but if having diarhea from yogurt then goat yogurt can be found in health food stores -- if you have the vitamin shoppe there that is where i get the dds plus probiotics by uab labs 

QUOTE (cleooscar @ Sep 28 2009, 09:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834633


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834476





> yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin[/B]


Where do you get the probiotic powder and is it a specific brand? I give our gang probiotic yogurt, just the commercial brand Danone Activia, which these guys love. I don't think I can find goat yogurt around here but a powder kind seems convenient to me.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

Thanks much! I'll check out the vitamin shoppe. They're doing great on the current yogurt but I've been wanting to add some variety so pumpkin+probiotic sounds rather yummy (and good for them too).

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 28 2009, 10:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834640


> if your dog is doing good on the yogurt then you should be ok but if having diarhea from yogurt then goat yogurt can be found in health food stores -- if you have the vitamin shoppe there that is where i get the dds plus probiotics by uab labs
> 
> QUOTE (cleooscar @ Sep 28 2009, 09:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834633





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834476





> yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin[/B]


Where do you get the probiotic powder and is it a specific brand? I give our gang probiotic yogurt, just the commercial brand Danone Activia, which these guys love. I don't think I can find goat yogurt around here but a powder kind seems convenient to me.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

sometimes too much of a good thing can be bad so stick to what is working as pumpkin is only needed for diarhea and constipation - my motto if it is not broke do not fix it so if you doing the yogurt and they are doing good stick with it

QUOTE (cleooscar @ Sep 28 2009, 10:08 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834642


> Thanks much! I'll check out the vitamin shoppe. They're doing great on the current yogurt but I've been wanting to add some variety so pumpkin+probiotic sounds rather yummy (and good for them too).
> 
> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 28 2009, 10:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834640





> if your dog is doing good on the yogurt then you should be ok but if having diarhea from yogurt then goat yogurt can be found in health food stores -- if you have the vitamin shoppe there that is where i get the dds plus probiotics by uab labs
> 
> QUOTE (cleooscar @ Sep 28 2009, 09:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834633





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834476





> yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin[/B]


Where do you get the probiotic powder and is it a specific brand? I give our gang probiotic yogurt, just the commercial brand Danone Activia, which these guys love. I don't think I can find goat yogurt around here but a powder kind seems convenient to me.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

CO Q 10 really is totally safe and one of the best supplements for people and dogs. 

If you give your dog treats right before and right after brushing their teeth, it really helps. I brush her teeth right after her dinner. I have a special treat that I only give to Nikki after I brush her teeth. She knows that if she is patient while I am brushing, she will get a nice tiny piece of dried salmon. I know that sounds weird to treat her AFTER her teeth are brushed, but it works very well and the tiny piece of salmon doesn't make an impact on her teeth.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

good idea as have read that but always nervous about giving a treat after brushing but i guess a tiny piece of something won't hurt 


QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 28 2009, 10:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834663


> CO Q 10 really is totally safe and one of the best supplements for people and dogs.
> 
> If you give your dog treats right before and right after brushing their teeth, it really helps. I brush her teeth right after her dinner. I have a special treat that I only give to Nikki after I brush her teeth. She knows that if she is patient while I am brushing, she will get a nice tiny piece of dried salmon. I know that sounds weird to treat her AFTER her teeth are brushed, but it works very well and the tiny piece of salmon doesn't make an impact on her teeth.[/B]


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 27 2009, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834342


> QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 27 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834288





> Thanks so much to all of you. This is all so confusing... Zoe started getting dentals at age 1 and has gotten them each year since then. Her prior owner/breeder insisted on this & realy drove this point home to me.
> 
> Since this past April when the gingivitis was discovered she went in every 2 months to have her teeth & gums checked by the vet. So Im upset that this tooth has erosion...
> 
> ...


Sorry, I don't believe that it cannot be reversed or at least reduced. There are things that can be given to help the dog's immune system but you will have to be open to using alternative medicine. Minerals,especially calcium are very important to dental health. Do you have access to raw, unpasteurized milk from a farm? Also green leafy veggies have calcium and minerals. 

There is a holistic veterinarian in Atlanta area whom I haven't tried yet, but I've heard she is very good. Dr. Kimberly Stagmeier - 770-754-1255. Maybe she can help you, even a phone consultation. I think she is in Alpharetta.

I don't know any dentists in NE Georgia, but University of Georgia Veterinary School in Athens should be able to give you a referral. If it were me, I would want them to recommend a good *canned* *no grain food*, like Natural Balance duck/potato or venison/sweetpotato, or fish/sweet potato, something like that, or if you have time, a home-cooked diet. I wouldn't feed Hills or S/D to my Nikki. 

Can someone else jump in here to recommed a good canned food with no grains?? 

I am not a nutritionist, but I can tell you what products I give Nikki to help her fight viral/bacterial infections and to keep her teeth in shape. Yes, probiotics and yogurt-especially goat's milk yogurt is fine for a dog. I like the probiotics powders because the probiotics-the good bacteria, is more concentrated than in the yogurt. 

These are immune system, bacterial/viral fighting things that I give Nikki. I buy the first 3 from www.Vitacost.com They have pretty good prices and are located in NC so they ship fairly quickly to Georgia

Nutiva Coconut Oil. 
I rub 1/8 teaspoon along Nikki's gums and teeth. (Dogs usually love it, and I use it every day in my own cooking. I love it and it is so healthy)

Jarrow Petdophilus probiotic powder. 
Dosage on package

Symbiotics Colostrum Powder.
I give Nikki 1/4 teaspoon a day.

COQ10 From Only Natural Pet Store.Com
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_deta...k=6875&mf=2
1 a day

I really hope that your furbaby will feel better soon. Please keep us updated. I'm glad to help, anytime. 

If anyone else here has some more holistic remedies, please jump in and offer recommendations. My brain is fuzzy today.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for all of this info! I will get started on ordering some of it. Do you do the dental vaccine? I have never let them give it to Zoe but my vet is really encouraging me to do it now.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 29 2009, 05:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835184


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 27 2009, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834342





> QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 27 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834288





> Thanks so much to all of you. This is all so confusing... Zoe started getting dentals at age 1 and has gotten them each year since then. Her prior owner/breeder insisted on this & realy drove this point home to me.
> 
> Since this past April when the gingivitis was discovered she went in every 2 months to have her teeth & gums checked by the vet. So Im upset that this tooth has erosion...
> 
> ...


Sorry, I don't believe that it cannot be reversed or at least reduced. There are things that can be given to help the dog's immune system but you will have to be open to using alternative medicine. Minerals,especially calcium are very important to dental health. Do you have access to raw, unpasteurized milk from a farm? Also green leafy veggies have calcium and minerals. 

There is a holistic veterinarian in Atlanta area whom I haven't tried yet, but I've heard she is very good. Dr. Kimberly Stagmeier - 770-754-1255. Maybe she can help you, even a phone consultation. I think she is in Alpharetta.

I don't know any dentists in NE Georgia, but University of Georgia Veterinary School in Athens should be able to give you a referral. If it were me, I would want them to recommend a good *canned* *no grain food*, like Natural Balance duck/potato or venison/sweetpotato, or fish/sweet potato, something like that, or if you have time, a home-cooked diet. I wouldn't feed Hills or S/D to my Nikki. 

Can someone else jump in here to recommed a good canned food with no grains?? 

I am not a nutritionist, but I can tell you what products I give Nikki to help her fight viral/bacterial infections and to keep her teeth in shape. Yes, probiotics and yogurt-especially goat's milk yogurt is fine for a dog. I like the probiotics powders because the probiotics-the good bacteria, is more concentrated than in the yogurt. 

These are immune system, bacterial/viral fighting things that I give Nikki. I buy the first 3 from www.Vitacost.com They have pretty good prices and are located in NC so they ship fairly quickly to Georgia

Nutiva Coconut Oil. 
I rub 1/8 teaspoon along Nikki's gums and teeth. (Dogs usually love it, and I use it every day in my own cooking. I love it and it is so healthy)

Jarrow Petdophilus probiotic powder. 
Dosage on package

Symbiotics Colostrum Powder.
I give Nikki 1/4 teaspoon a day.

COQ10 From Only Natural Pet Store.Com
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_deta...k=6875&mf=2
1 a day

I really hope that your furbaby will feel better soon. Please keep us updated. I'm glad to help, anytime. 

If anyone else here has some more holistic remedies, please jump in and offer recommendations. My brain is fuzzy today.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for all of this info! I will get started on ordering some of it. Do you do the dental vaccine? I have never let them give it to Zoe but my vet is really encouraging me to do it now.

[/B][/QUOTE]



No we will never do the dental vaccine. IMO, there is no reason to give another vaccine, dogs get enough.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DENTAL VACCINE TONS OF SIDE EFFECTS AND ONLY BEEN AROUND FOR 2-3 YEARS - ONE DENTIST WE CONSULTED DID IT IN A LARGE DOG AND THE LEG WENT LAME YET SHE WANTED TO GIVE TO DEMI AND I SAID NO THANKS AND WENT TO ANOTHER DENTIST FOR DENTAL - SHE EVEN CALLED THE MFG AND THEY SAID YEP THAT IS A SIDE EFFECT AND ALL VACCINES HAVE SIDE EFFECTS LIKE OH WELL SO NO WAY AND THE DENTIST WE SEE NOW IS TOTALLY AGAINST IT - AND VET TECHS ON A YORKIE GROUP I AM ON SAID THEY HAVE SEEN SOME HORRIBLE SIDE EFFECTS TO SO NO WAY !

Also a friend of mine vet is doing a study with some dogs and has not seen any improvement from vaccine vs not. Think about it do we get a dental vaccine if not why would a dog we have the same teeth. Personally I think they are being guinea pigs for humans to see if it works to use in humans  sad. The only thing that works for teeth is like us BRUSH BRUSH BRUSH and regular dentals we have the same teeth and gums. They just do not get cavities like us as they do not eat a ton of sugar 



QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 29 2009, 05:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835184


> QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 27 2009, 02:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834342





> QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 27 2009, 11:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834288





> Thanks so much to all of you. This is all so confusing... Zoe started getting dentals at age 1 and has gotten them each year since then. Her prior owner/breeder insisted on this & realy drove this point home to me.
> 
> Since this past April when the gingivitis was discovered she went in every 2 months to have her teeth & gums checked by the vet. So Im upset that this tooth has erosion...
> 
> ...


Sorry, I don't believe that it cannot be reversed or at least reduced. There are things that can be given to help the dog's immune system but you will have to be open to using alternative medicine. Minerals,especially calcium are very important to dental health. Do you have access to raw, unpasteurized milk from a farm? Also green leafy veggies have calcium and minerals. 

There is a holistic veterinarian in Atlanta area whom I haven't tried yet, but I've heard she is very good. Dr. Kimberly Stagmeier - 770-754-1255. Maybe she can help you, even a phone consultation. I think she is in Alpharetta.

I don't know any dentists in NE Georgia, but University of Georgia Veterinary School in Athens should be able to give you a referral. If it were me, I would want them to recommend a good *canned* *no grain food*, like Natural Balance duck/potato or venison/sweetpotato, or fish/sweet potato, something like that, or if you have time, a home-cooked diet. I wouldn't feed Hills or S/D to my Nikki. 

Can someone else jump in here to recommed a good canned food with no grains?? 

I am not a nutritionist, but I can tell you what products I give Nikki to help her fight viral/bacterial infections and to keep her teeth in shape. Yes, probiotics and yogurt-especially goat's milk yogurt is fine for a dog. I like the probiotics powders because the probiotics-the good bacteria, is more concentrated than in the yogurt. 

These are immune system, bacterial/viral fighting things that I give Nikki. I buy the first 3 from www.Vitacost.com They have pretty good prices and are located in NC so they ship fairly quickly to Georgia

Nutiva Coconut Oil. 
I rub 1/8 teaspoon along Nikki's gums and teeth. (Dogs usually love it, and I use it every day in my own cooking. I love it and it is so healthy)

Jarrow Petdophilus probiotic powder. 
Dosage on package

Symbiotics Colostrum Powder.
I give Nikki 1/4 teaspoon a day.

COQ10 From Only Natural Pet Store.Com
http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_deta...k=6875&mf=2
1 a day

I really hope that your furbaby will feel better soon. Please keep us updated. I'm glad to help, anytime. 

If anyone else here has some more holistic remedies, please jump in and offer recommendations. My brain is fuzzy today.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for all of this info! I will get started on ordering some of it. Do you do the dental vaccine? I have never let them give it to Zoe but my vet is really encouraging me to do it now.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

I know you all are tired of hearing from me about Zoes teeth but she had her dental & extraction of the one tooth today. The tech called when it was over & said it all went great & they saw no other problems, also told me the gingivitis is now gone due to the cleaning so no antibiotics are needed. BUT... when I got there to pick her up the vet tech told me that ALL of her bottom incisors are loose & may have to be pulled, for now they are going to wait & hope they tighten back up...???

I am just baffled & am now so paranoid that Im thinking why in the world didnt they tell me her bottoms were loose when they examined her teeth last week and found the eroded one that needed pulling?? And why didnt they tell me when they called?? And why didnt the vet come in herself & tell me this?? 

Could the bottom incisors have been loosened during the cleaning? I read somwhere if the scalers or polishers are held on the teeth too long that can happen. Goodness, I may need to find a bc dentist and pray that I can afford it!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 30 2009, 04:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835479


> I know you all are tired of hearing from me about Zoes teeth but she had her dental & extraction of the one tooth today. The tech called when it was over & said it all went great & they saw no other problems, also told me the gingivitis is now gone due to the cleaning so no antibiotics are needed. BUT... when I got there to pick her up the vet tech told me that ALL of her bottom incisors are loose & may have to be pulled, for now they are going to wait & hope they tighten back up...???
> 
> I am just baffled & am now so paranoid that Im thinking why in the world didnt they tell me her bottoms were loose when they examined her teeth last week and found the eroded one that needed pulling?? And why didnt they tell me when they called?? And why didnt the vet come in herself & tell me this??
> 
> Could the bottom incisors have been loosened during the cleaning? I read somwhere if the scalers or polishers are held on the teeth too long that can happen. Goodness, I may need to find a bc dentist and pray that I can afford it![/B]


Sounds like you need a new veterinarian, imo. 

The teeth may have been loosened from the gingivitis. I would stay away from that vet and not worry about her teeth right now. Concentrate on building up the immune system by giving some good food and supplements and then see how her teeth/gums are doing.


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Sep 30 2009, 05:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835486


> QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 30 2009, 04:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835479





> I know you all are tired of hearing from me about Zoes teeth but she had her dental & extraction of the one tooth today. The tech called when it was over & said it all went great & they saw no other problems, also told me the gingivitis is now gone due to the cleaning so no antibiotics are needed. BUT... when I got there to pick her up the vet tech told me that ALL of her bottom incisors are loose & may have to be pulled, for now they are going to wait & hope they tighten back up...???
> 
> I am just baffled & am now so paranoid that Im thinking why in the world didnt they tell me her bottoms were loose when they examined her teeth last week and found the eroded one that needed pulling?? And why didnt they tell me when they called?? And why didnt the vet come in herself & tell me this??
> 
> Could the bottom incisors have been loosened during the cleaning? I read somwhere if the scalers or polishers are held on the teeth too long that can happen. Goodness, I may need to find a bc dentist and pray that I can afford it![/B]


Sounds like you need a new veterinarian, imo. 

The teeth may have been loosened from the gingivitis. I would stay away from that vet and not worry about her teeth right now. Concentrate on building up the immune system by giving some good food and supplements and then see how her teeth/gums are doing.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thats a very good advice. And I am going to interview other vets. I am not pleased at all that this vet didn't speak to me herself. She knowa how upset & worried I have been. Maybe she was dodging because there was bad news to tell??

Thank you again for all your time and knowledge!!


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

here is the deal first off that is not uncommon as small dogs usually lose the front top and bottom teeth as they do not have a large root on them and if periodontal disease happens the bone loss their affects them the most - demi has no front top or bottom teeth now as they were loose -- do you feel in the mouth yourself when brushing as i always feel around with the gauze to see what is going one as demi had loose teeth sadly when i took her to the dentist BUT here is why I would not go back to this person as i think again they are waisting your money - when a tooth is loose it is toast no turning it around so why leave it in the mouth that is absurd get it out not like it is going to grow roots and get firmed up again  any loose teeth need to come out and it is painful for a dog to have a loose tooth anyway as just like with us when we had loose teeth as kids and you get a zinger not comfortable. They should have PULLED THOSE TEETH. Now here is why i am upset because they know you will now have to go back and have another dental to take care of those teeth AGAIN - this is where a bc dentist will get diseased teeth out of the mouth and not mess around with it leaving it in there to cause more problems. If a tooth is loose the teeth right next to it are usually affected too and YOU DO NOT WANT to loose those canines if you can help it as those are more necessary than the front incissors as those were designed for tearing off meet on bones etc but dogs do not need them and they are strictly cosmetic. The positive thing is your vet is CORRECT as many vets over prescribe antibiotics. They are only needed in real severe cases like demi had. My dd had 5 extractions and she did not need antibiotics after her dental as the dentist does not believe it is necessary on every dental and WAY OVER USED in the profession. Think again DO WE NEED ANTIBIOTICS when we get our teeth cleaned NOPE so again why do dogs get them all the time - if the dental is done correctly the bacteria is suctioned out of the mouth the dog is sedated after all. 

Ok another thing is the teeth may not be loose when you go in for dental BUT when they clean away all the tartar then the tooth comes loose as the only thing sometimes holding the tooth in place is the tartar so thus a loose tooth. This is why they have to get below the gumline as the problems lie below the gum line not above it as the bacteria deteriorates the roots thus going into the bone and causing loose teeth and the small dogs have a very small bone to tooth ratio unlike big dogs so any bone loss will cause loose teeth. 

Yes another correct thing is an inexperienced tech doing the dental and leaving the ultrasonic on the tooth for too long which will loosen the tooth and why i use a dentist for this reason. Some owners ask for hand scaling but then your dog will also be under anesthesia longer than if they do the ultrasonic so you need someone who knows what they are doing as they are not taught to use it less time on a small dogs tooth than a big dogs tooth as we had this discussion on our vet group with vets and vet techs and there is no set time to leave on a tooth they just go with the flow and yes if left too long some dogs will have teeth loosened up BUT having dealt with a dentist neither of my two have had a loose tooth after a dental as he will take any diseased teeth out so my dog will not be going under anesthesia every 6 mos for things that could have been done the first time around. 

Also the other thing about a dentist is they know how to do extractions and many times when vets or vet techs do extractions they do not get the entire root and then you have a problem so I am a firm believer you get what you pay for go to the specialist and get it done one time and be done with it. I pay between 900-1200 for dentals and use carecredit as the dentist uses this and the dental with no extractions is 600 which is almost the same as vets in our area and less than some of the more expensive vets. 

The vets DO NOT DO THE DENTALS it is the tech that does it who did not go to vet school but went to vet tech school training - BC DENTISTS go to vet school, then go to continuing study for dentistry, then do an internship in dentistry then take a board certified exam that is very intensive so they are very knowledgeable about dentals. 

Canines are the most critical especially the top ones as if you lose those they go up into nasal passage so those you want to save if you can and they keep the jaw from atrophying and keep the tongue in the mouth. If they lose the bottom canines the tongue will hang out - my dex jaw is off align and his bottom canine sticks out and his tongue hangs out some times due to this 

Dogs really do not need teeth and many do well without them and many small dogs loose their teeth and some all of them so sometimes it is inevitable and it is better to not have teeth than to have diseased teeth in the mouth causing a chance of breaking the jaw from so much bone loss or kidney disease. You do not want bacteria in the blood 

The way you know a dog has really bad periodontal disease is if the globulins are high on the blood work so keep an eye on that to see if your dog is high normal 

At this point you have the dental again so keep an eye on those teeth and start asking around about a bc dentist in your area and call and get pricing for future and discuss with him what your next step is and interview him/her to see if you are comfortable with them. I went to two and interviewed both. I also emailed the one i went with on a weekend and he emailed me back over the weekend and to me that is someone that is passionate about what they do and he also had a great website and a professional staff that is very nice all of which impressed me. He also came highly recommended from jean dodds and our internal medicine specialist and our dermatologist takes her cat to him so i had several recommendations. The other one was telling me about dental vaccine red flag one, did not call me back for 5 days after blood work done and demi had high bun and globulins - red flag number two, she works emergency, in a vet office and does dentals a little all over the place for me red flag number 3 as the guy i went to all he does is dentals period, and she tried to sell me 6 things at consult and her estimate was astronomical and she was telling me demi had to come back every six months and she would be under 2-4 hrs whoa scary and she was talking about bone packing which does not work in humans and cutting and sewing gums -- just a little too aggressive for me so I went the more conservative route if the tooth is bad get it out so her mouth is healthy. So these will be some things to see if it happens to you then you can know what some things are -- I talked to my dentist and hygeniest about it all as i have a great relationship with them and my dentist even looked at demis xrays for me  and they told me bone packing was ridiculous and very expensive like 10k so I felt i was being way up sold and moved on - sadly you have to do your own homework and then go with your gut on who is best for your dog. If your gut is telling you something trust it as it has never failed me yet 


QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Sep 30 2009, 03:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835479


> I know you all are tired of hearing from me about Zoes teeth but she had her dental & extraction of the one tooth today. The tech called when it was over & said it all went great & they saw no other problems, also told me the gingivitis is now gone due to the cleaning so no antibiotics are needed. BUT... when I got there to pick her up the vet tech told me that ALL of her bottom incisors are loose & may have to be pulled, for now they are going to wait & hope they tighten back up...???
> 
> I am just baffled & am now so paranoid that Im thinking why in the world didnt they tell me her bottoms were loose when they examined her teeth last week and found the eroded one that needed pulling?? And why didnt they tell me when they called?? And why didnt the vet come in herself & tell me this??
> 
> Could the bottom incisors have been loosened during the cleaning? I read somwhere if the scalers or polishers are held on the teeth too long that can happen. Goodness, I may need to find a bc dentist and pray that I can afford it![/B]


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I advise to wait before having teeth pulled. Gingivitis and other gum issues can cause gums to recede and teeth to become loose. It's happened to me a couple of times and I still have most of my teeth that were previously loose. Believe it or not, there are holistic methods to heal cavities, re-mineralize teeth, reverse gum disease, and grow bone. The dentists don't want you to know that, though.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I agree with humans as we have a larger bone to tooth ratio than toy breeds so in humans yes as my hygeniest said this as well but I do not believe this in tiny dogs but i could be wrong and the COQ10 is for the gums so maybe that will help but a dentist would prefer to leave in than take out in a dog as they make more money than pulling out at $10 a tooth bc if you leave in then you have to keep going back - also a wiggly tooth i would think would be painful especially if the dog eats kibble  and a loose tooth has pockets allowing bacteria to further get below the gum line to the root and bone - jmho but i do agree not to dental now and wait 6 mos and consult a dentist and get their opinion - I personally will only do dentals once a year to every two years with mine and do good home care but even with brushing daily demi still has tartar build up on her canines so at a year this nov i will have hers cleaned as i do not want her to lose anymore teeth as she only has 15 left and she is genetically predisposed to more tartar build up than my yorkies 

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Oct 1 2009, 05:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835687


> I advise to wait before having teeth pulled. Gingivitis and other gum issues can cause gums to recede and teeth to become loose. It's happened to me a couple of times and I still have most of my teeth that were previously loose. Believe it or not, there are holistic methods to heal cavities, re-mineralize teeth, reverse gum disease, and grow bone. The dentists don't want you to know that, though.[/B]


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy (Feb 8, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834476


> yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin[/B]



Where can I get the organic pumkin? I have found most everything else you guys have suggested. I was trying to find it all at one place but no luck with that


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Oct 1 2009, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835784


> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834476





> yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin[/B]



Where can I get the organic pumkin? I have found most everything else you guys have suggested. I was trying to find it all at one place but no luck with that  
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whole Foods has organic canned pumpkin. Trader Joe's might have it, too.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

i get it from whole foods do not get pumpkin pie though and i get the 365 brand 

QUOTE (Nikki's Mom @ Oct 1 2009, 02:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835823


> QUOTE (ZoeGirl's Mommy @ Oct 1 2009, 01:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835784





> QUOTE (dwerten @ Sep 27 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=834476





> yes goat yogurt is best for dogs as it is most like their mothers milk. It does not have lactose in it which affects alot of dogs. I personally just use the probiotic powder as my girl licks off plate or i mix it with a little organic pumpkin[/B]



Where can I get the organic pumkin? I have found most everything else you guys have suggested. I was trying to find it all at one place but no luck with that  
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whole Foods has organic canned pumpkin. Trader Joe's might have it, too.
[/B][/QUOTE]


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