# Let's talk dog food options to help our newbies!



## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Since there are several newbies here, and I've received a couple of PM's, I thought I'd post my thoughts on food for our fluffs.

Disclaimer: I'm just a cranky old lady who is very picky about what my dog eats. I have no formal schooling in canine nutrition. I have an inquisitive nature and I do a lot of research. The opinions I have are just my opinions, take them or leave them, and please do your own homework. Everyone has to decide for themselves what they should feed their dog. 

I am big on home cooking for our dogs. I am just beginning to explore the world of raw feeding, so I don't know too much about that, perhaps others can chime in. Whole Dog Journal is a great magazine that covers food in depth. If you are a newbie, I highly suggest you subscribe. 

My thinking is that commercial dog food has all the required vitamins/minerals your dog needs to survive. But let's look beyond that and consider *quality* of the actual food in the bag or the can. If you aren't concerned about food quality, just vitamins, then any commercial dog food will do because 99% of them are nutritionally complete and balanced. Let's compare that to people food. For example, "Total" brand cereal will give us a 100% balanced breakfast. And we could probably eat it 3X a day and not die. But what is the actual quality of those flakes in that box? Where were those grains grown? Are they genetically modified? Who knows?

So, in order to feed our dogs so that they thrive, not just survive, and don't get allergies, behavioral issues, ear infections, etc. we really should consider a food that has good quality meat and veggies, along with the vitamin mix that goes into every dog food. Grains aren't the best thing for all dogs, and they can be the culprit when an allergy forms. So, a grain-free food is preferable for many dogs. However a dog needs to have adequate water when eating a grain-free dry food as it is usually higher in protein. If you must feed your dog a food that contains grains, please don't feed it gluten grains, like wheat, oats, barley or rye. Gluten grains are highly allergenic, as is corn. *Rice* is the least allergenic out of all the grains. Millet and Quinoa are other low allergy grains.

Taking that into consideration, if folks would like to home cook for their dog, then there are a couple of ways to go about it. 
1. Using a nutrition database, figure out what your dog's vitamin/mineral needs are and do it all yourself. It's time consuming and detailed, but some people like to do this sort of thing. 
2. Buy a recipe from a Veterinary Nutritionist, either in person, on the phone, or online. Expensive maybe, but a good investment.
3. Use a book, like Dr. Becker's new book: Welcome to Dogwise.com
4. Use a nutritionally balanced veggie base, and add your own proteins: Dr. Harvey's Veg-to-bowl, or Dr. Harvey's Canine Health.

You can also do the same thing as above, but use raw protein instead of cooked, your choice. Supplementing food with Salmon Oil, Sardines, or another Omega 3 oil, is very beneficial, as is Coconut oil. 

If you would like to feed raw, but want something nutritionally balanced that has the vitamins/veggies already in it, Paw Naturaw makes a certified organic raw food, either dehydrated or frozen. It's expensive, but it's convenient and certified pathogen-free. Some people use Stella and Chewy's raw food as well, and seem to like it.

If you don't want to bother with home cooking, then there are a few commercial foods that seem to be good quality, along with being nutritionally balanced. If I had to choose between canned and kibble, I'd choose canned food. Party Animal Organics makes an organic grain-free canned food that I have used in the past, and it appears to be good-quality food. I wouldn't use their kibble, as it contains grains.

If you want to feed your dog kibble, Acana makes some food that seems to be good quality. 

There are many other great quality foods out there. Try some and see which one suits yhour dog.

I feed my dog 2X a day. I have never free-fed. When Nikki was a puppy I fed her 3X a day. 

It is really up to you. I know that most people have a hectic, busy life and cannot home cook or do research. And many folks are on a limited budget. But IMO, if you do a little homework and feed your dog the best quality food you can possibly afford, you are saving yourself money and time during the dog's lifespan because you won't be in the vet's office with allergies, infections etc. That's not to say that your dog will never get sick if you feed it well, but you will reduce the chances of him/her having an allergic reaction and being sickened by poor quality proteins. Dogs can withstand eating poor food for a long time, but at some point it WILL catch up with them. 

Regarding puppies: I didn't start home cooking until Nikki was about 9 months old. If I had to do it again, I'd start home cooking right away, or feed a good quality canned suitable for all ages. But if I home-cooked for a puppy, I'd definitely get some help from a professional. 

When I got my recipes from a vet, I had to pay for them. It was a one-time fee, and my recipe allows for rotation of meats/fish and rotation of veggies. So I will continue to use it for a long time. Even though that recipe cost me $50 at the time, it was a great investment.

I hope that this helps. In addition, please go ahead and read through the sticky post regarding home cooking: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/60-...ookers-can-you-please-post-what-you-feed.html

I hope this helps. It can get very confusing, and I know that all of us here want to do the best possible things to ensure that our fluffs are happy and healthy. Feeding takes trial and error, and eventually you will find what is perfect for you and your dog.


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

Great info Susan thanks for posting again!


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## Johita (Jul 10, 2009)

Thank you so much for the information!


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Suzan, any information you give us about food is what I'm listening to...

But, alas....I cannot picture myself home cooking for my four pups at this point. 

Thanks for the heads-up on Party Animal canned food. I will be travelling over an hour this weekend to buy some. Hope they like it.

At the moment I'm feeding them Merrick's Turducken canned and sometimes I hydrate one Stella & Chewy's disk and split it between all four bowls mixed in with the Turducken. (how do you feel about this????).
I only add the Stella & Chewys when I think they are getting tired of the canned food.


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## nekkidfish (Aug 25, 2009)

Tons of great information!! Thank you!!

HUGz! Jules


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Have you fed any of the Paw Naturaw yet? If so was it raw or dehydrated? I was looking at the 1/2 oz. size Nuggets or the dehydrated smallest bag. I'm wondering about sample sizes? Didn't see anything mentioned about samples.


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## malts4me (Mar 19, 2010)

I noticed on thier web site they have samples for $2.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

Great info Suzan!! 

I asked our local seller about the Paw Naturaw and she said the reason she does not carry it is simply the cost. Most people will not choose to buy that over the Stella's. We discussed the fact that it is certified organic and Stella's is not. Apparently Stella's uses smaller farms that cannot afford to be certified organic. Or they choose not to spend the money so they can keep costs down . This keeps the certified organic symbol off of the bag, but does not necessarily mean the meat is not organic. For me, I chose to stay with Stella's since it works great for my dogs, I can buy it locally and I trust the company.

I think a good quality diet is incredibly important for our dogs. The upfront costs may be a bit more, but there are no hidden costs. They have less health issues, they live longer and they are happier! Not to mention, mine seem to have very minimal or zero tear stains.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

MandyMc65 said:


> Great info Suzan!!
> 
> I asked our local seller about the Paw Naturaw and she said the reason she does not carry it is simply the cost. Most people will not choose to buy that over the Stella's. We discussed the fact that it is certified organic and Stella's is not. Apparently Stella's uses smaller farms that cannot afford to be certified organic. Or they choose not to spend the money so they can keep costs down . This keeps the certified organic symbol off of the bag, but does not necessarily mean the meat is not organic. For me, I chose to stay with Stella's since it works great for my dogs, I can buy it locally and I trust the company.
> 
> I think a good quality diet is incredibly important for our dogs. The upfront costs may be a bit more, but there are no hidden costs. They have less health issues, they live longer and they are happier! Not to mention, mine seem to have very minimal or zero tear stains.


 Mandy, do you add anything to the Stellas or is it ready to go. Does it have veg? Have you (or anyone out there) used the Dr. Harveys? It looks interesting. I have been feeding Frank Acana. Lola is on a special Hepatic Diet. But, always looking for the next best thing.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

Stella's is ready to go. Has all organic veggies and the vitamins and minerals. It's a balanced meal. They just reconfigured their dehydrated beef to make that fully balanced as well. 
I buy the frozen raw and thaw it out b/c it is much more cost effective than the dehydrated and it has had less processing (didn't go through the dehydration process). I always have the dehydrated on hand in case I forget to thaw some or want to do training for dinners instead. You can always add water to the dehydrated but I don't do that very often. It is also great for traveling! I also used the dehydrated to do the transfer from kibble to raw. 
I've looked at Dr. Harvey's but it involves cooking and buying meat so I didn't get it. I also saw that I think only a couple have no grains. But I hear it works great for some people (dogs)!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I might try Stella and Chewy's too. If they are using smaller farms that cannot afford to be certified organic, then that is okay with me!

I'm going to try Dr. Harvey's for a few weeks, then after that, I may start Nikki on the Paw Naturaw Bison that is in our freezer. After that, I'll try S and C!!

Variety is GOOD for dogs.


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## Missy&Maggie (Jun 17, 2007)

What a great thread and info Suzan!

I'm feeding Maggie and Abbie Grandma Lucy's Artisan Freeze-dried food. It is: All-natural, grain-free, Made with hormone & antibiotic free human-grade USDA meat, Made in California and Contains no by-products, preservatives, artificial flavors or colors. There are many protein sources to alternate between which is nice. Also it is really easy to make....just add warm water. Maggie and Abbie really like it.

I want to eventually home cook and alternate with the GL's Artisan for my two.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Missy&Maggie said:


> What a great thread and info Suzan!
> 
> I'm feeding Maggie and Abbie Grandma Lucy's Artisan Freeze-dried food. It is: All-natural, grain-free, Made with hormone & antibiotic free human-grade USDA meat, Made in California and Contains no by-products, preservatives, artificial flavors or colors. There are many protein sources to alternate between which is nice. Also it is really easy to make....just add warm water. Maggie and Abbie really like it.
> 
> I want to eventually home cook and alternate with the GL's Artisan for my two.


Is it raw or cooked freeze-dried? I can't tell from the website, or maybe I just missed it?

EDITED: Never mind, I found it. The food is cooked and then freeze-dried. I'm going to look into it further, thanks.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Missy&Maggie said:


> What a great thread and info Suzan!
> 
> I'm feeding Maggie and Abbie Grandma Lucy's Artisan Freeze-dried food. It is: All-natural, grain-free, Made with hormone & antibiotic free human-grade USDA meat, Made in California and Contains no by-products, preservatives, artificial flavors or colors. There are many protein sources to alternate between which is nice. Also it is really easy to make....just add warm water. Maggie and Abbie really like it.
> 
> I want to eventually home cook and alternate with the GL's Artisan for my two.


I like this, but Shoni didn't. He did like the little meatball treats however.


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

I've tried bunches of stuff so I'm going to give you my take on everything I've tried except the kibbles. 

My dogs like their food to be about 40% + protein. They like meat, meat, and more meat with a side of meat please. Thank you. 

Stella & Chewies - liked it but it's stinky unless you use the frozen. My knowledge is that they use organic as long as it's available from the smaller farms otherwise not so much. Things may have changed though. Not all my dogs did well on it so I switched.

Northwest Naturals Raw - Good but the dogs got bored and stopped eating it. 

Grandma Lucy's Artisan chicken, lamb, whitefish - My dogs don't really like this because the meat is ground to a pulp and there aren't enough chunks of meat. It's also garlicky and smelly. Kind of gluey in texture. Of the three the chicken was the best for us. They wouldn't touch the fish or lamb. 

Dr. Harvey's - I have used the Canine Health (with grain) and the Veg-to-Bowl. These foods are meant to be served with RAW meat but you can cook the meat and that is what I have done. I prefer the Veg-to-bowl. 

Honest Kitchen - I have used Thrive (dehydrated raw chicken mix) and Preference(add your own meat). Also meant to be used with RAW meat but can use cooked. Thrive doesn't have enough meat to make my carnivores happy so I use the Preference and add cooked meat on the higher protein side. NOTE: This is the only food made in a FDA inspected and approved kitchen with "edible" human quality foods. 

Sojos - I have tried the dehydrated raw and the add your own meat version. This takes longer to re-hydrate but it's good and the dogs like it. 

So in short - I rotate the Dr. Harvey's Veg-to-bowl, the Honest Kitchen Preference, and Sojos. I also use Beef, Chicken, Turkey, Lamb and Pork for the meats. I add either Ultra Oil, Dr. Harvey's oil, or Salmon oil. This is what works well for my dogs. My goal is to provide enough variety that any small deficiency in one food will be made up for in another. And different nutrients will come from different sources at different times.

Hope that helps.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I carry both Dr. Harvey's and Grandma Lucy's. Have for over a year now. I like Grandma Lucy's for traveling or in a pinch. But to be honest, it seems like instant mashed potatoes. I really recommend Dr.Harvey's over Grandma Lucy's. But Grandma Lucy's is still better then commercial kibble and canned. Zoe, my picky eater eats Grandma Lucy's fairly well. But she prefers Dr. Harvey's. Jett, my little piggy who will eat anything and everything, amazingly does not care for Grandma Lucy's. He'll eat it. But it takes him like 20 minutes compared to the 3 seconds it takes him to wolf down Dr. H's. lol


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

I wish Vanila liked dehydrated raw but she does not like it. I really love the Addiction brand because it smelled good and re-hydrated so quickly. I always switch things up for her and she does fine with that. Right now I am using Merrick canned food and a raw dehydrated kibble from Quebec called Cani-source. After that food is done I will be trying Natural Balance.
One member gave me a great idea she got from her holistic vet. She said to give the dog 1 tablespoon a day of raw pureed veggies. I actully semi-boil zucchini, carrots and broccoli, then I puree it add some filtred water and put it in the fridge for a week. At meal time or as a treat I give her about a tablespoon and she loves it. I also add extra water to the bowl so she get more fluids that way.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Tyler's been on Wellness canned puppy food. I also boil chicken and mix them and sometimes veggies. He seems to be tiring of the Wellness which seems to have good ingredients and nutrients, so if he won't eat it I know I need to add supplement to the chicken.
First question -- any good supplement to go with the chicken that will give him the nutrients he needs? There's just so much home cooking I can do with my schedule and travel.
Second question -- about Dr. Harvey's Beg to Bowl. Here are the ingredients on their website: _Sweet Potatoes*, Carrots*, Diced Potatoes*, Zucchini*, Broccoli Florets*, Green Beans*, Peas**, Beets*, Calcium Citrate, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Fenugreek Seed, *Garlic,* Ginger, Papaya Leaf and Peppermint Leaf_ 
I thought that garlic was bad for our dogs?
He won't eat kibble at all.


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## Maltese&LabMommy (Apr 20, 2010)

THANK YOU for the info!
I am busting my bum, trying to figure out this raw food diet for my pups. I am VERY intrested in it, but cant seem to find answers to my "starter" questions.
Thanks again for the links and info!


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

Great thread!!! :aktion033:


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## angel's mom (Feb 14, 2007)

Thank you for starting this thread. Very informative.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Snowbody said:


> Tyler's been on Wellness canned puppy food. I also boil chicken and mix them and sometimes veggies. He seems to be tiring of the Wellness which seems to have good ingredients and nutrients, so if he won't eat it I know I need to add supplement to the chicken.
> First question -- any good supplement to go with the chicken that will give him the nutrients he needs? There's just so much home cooking I can do with my schedule and travel.
> Second question -- about Dr. Harvey's Beg to Bowl. Here are the ingredients on their website: _Sweet Potatoes*, Carrots*, Diced Potatoes*, Zucchini*, Broccoli Florets*, Green Beans*, Peas**, Beets*, Calcium Citrate, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Fenugreek Seed, *Garlic,* Ginger, Papaya Leaf and Peppermint Leaf_
> I thought that garlic was bad for our dogs?
> He won't eat kibble at all.


Garlic in small amounts is fine for dogs, imo.

A good herbal vitamin/mineral supplement is made by Animal Essentials. If you are just adding chicken to the Wellness, then you don't need a supplement. Just feeding chicken alone, you'll need the vitamin/mineral supplement, and calcium. Animal Essentials makes both. You can google the name and buy it from several places. I get mine from Amazon as I shop there all the time. 

Something like Grandma Lucy's might be the right fit for you with your travel schedule. I haven't tried it, but it would be much better than kibble or canned, imo.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Suzan - Good news. I went to my local pet store looking for Dr. Harvey's Veg to Bowl (I just realized I wrote Beg to Bowl in my OP-- kind of true though and they had the big bags, which were expensive, but then said they had samples and gave me two little packs. :chili: I'm not going to try Tyler on it until after we come back from Paris but it looks great. Actually looks like some things they sell for humans I think called Just Veggies. I loved those peas...so fresh tasting.


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## wooflife (Aug 8, 2007)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Garlic in small amounts is fine for dogs, imo.


 
Garlic is fine for dogs in small quantities. 

I think the concern is that it is in onion family however it does not cause the problems that onions do. It is metabolized differently and it takes a very large quantity of garlic to have an adverse affect on a dog. 

The amounts contained in dog foods are not harmful.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I stopped at my pet store that only carries natural foods and they only had 2 choices of raw. Steve's and Nature's Variety Taste of Raw. They gave me a small sack of 12 medallions of the Lamb as a sample. It is the first raw I've had, other than freeze-dried. Is it a good choice to try?

I gave Shoni 1 small medallion last night and he ate it--we'll see how it goes today. I'm still giving him his reg. food until he gets used to the change (provided he keeps eating the raw).


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

Furbaby's Mommie said:


> I stopped at my pet store that only carries natural foods and they only had 2 choices of raw. Steve's and Nature's Variety Taste of Raw. They gave me a small sack of 12 medallions of the Lamb as a sample. It is the first raw I've had, other than freeze-dried. Is it a good choice to try?
> 
> I gave Shoni 1 small medallion last night and he ate it--we'll see how it goes today. I'm still giving him his reg. food until he gets used to the change (provided he keeps eating the raw).


Our first try at raw was the Nature's Variety - it didn't work for us. I don't know why but it didn't. Jax ended up with a bad bout of colitis and we stopped feeding that brand. Some dogs do great on it though! Jax has a pretty sensitive stomach, so that may be why. 

I've never heard of Steve's but did a quick google search. They look like a smaller company and use good quality ingredients. I would possibly even give that a try.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I just finally saw a few clips from Food Inc. Some day I'll be a grown up and watch it in it's entirety. And I'm thinking...why can't there be a Grandma Lucy's or a Dr. Harvey's for humans? I'd LOVE and pay a higher fee for a healthy, organic, no preservative & tasty freeze dried pre-mix that all I had to do was rehydrate and possibly add meat or pasta too. :blush:

Sorry....just the rambling workings of my mind. :back2topic:


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Since there are several newbies here, and I've received a couple of PM's, I thought I'd post my thoughts on food for our fluffs.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm just a cranky old lady who is very picky about what my dog eats. I have no formal schooling in canine nutrition. I have an inquisitive nature and I do a lot of research. The opinions I have are just my opinions, take them or leave them, and please do your own homework. Everyone has to decide for themselves what they should feed their dog.
> 
> ...


 


Again, Suzan there's some partial truths in your post, but there's some misleading/unsubstantiated info. here. 


For instance, with food allergies, I thought it was well known that some proteins in dog food are more of a problem than grains.

From Drs. Foster and Smith:

_Several studies have shown that some ingredients are more likely to cause food allergies than others. In order of the most common offenders in dogs are *beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy.* As you may have noticed, the most common offenders are the most common ingredients in dog foods. This correlation is not a coincidence. While some proteins might be slightly more antigenic than others, many proteins are similar in form and the incidence of allergic reactions are probably associated with the amount of exposure. _

Link to entire article:

Food Allergies & Food Intolerance in Dogs


Drs. Foster and Smith's peteducation.com is a site recommended by Cornell Veterinary School.



Since food allergies are only about 10% of *all *allergies in dogs, it doesn't make sense to me to go grain-free unless your dog has allergies and it's recommended by your vet.

Each dog has specific nutritional needs based on it's age, size, activity, etc. and I think everyone needs to be very careful about making nutritional recommendations. I say this because there's different caloric and nutritional requirements for different breeds of puppies. For instance too much calcium or the wrong caloric intake in a large breed puppy can cause orthopedic problems. The amount of protein intake can be critical also. 

A lot of claims made by companies selling supplements and antioxidants for dogs don't have scientific studies to back up their claims.


Leave the nutritional advice to the experts. The American Animal Hospital has commissioned a panel of experts to come up with canine nutritional recommendations and the report is due sometime this Summer. Why not wait and see what's in that report?


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Great thread. I've feed so many different things over the years, but started home cooking when we have the food recalls about 3-4 years ago. I've worked with my Vet to ensure that I include the proper vitamins and nutrients in the correct amounts. I'll pull the recipes and post over the weekend.

Additionally, I've also used raw. Lacie loves it (and she's a very picky eater) and she does very well on raw. Tilly (my little piggy) HATES raw and always throws up after she's taken a couple of bites.

Currently, I've decided to stick with home cooking, however, it would be convient to use something else when I'm travelling.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Once again, Joy, I disagree. I am beginning to think that you are deliberately harassing me now, because you are accusing me of stating misleading information, when all I am stating is my opinion. If you don't agree with my opinion, then that's perfectly fine with me. 

Are you not able to understand the difference between offering an opinion on a forum thread discussion, and dispensing professional advice? Did you even read what I wrote on the original post? 


*Disclaimer: I'm just a cranky old lady who is very picky about what my dog eats. I have no formal schooling in canine nutrition. I have an inquisitive nature and I do a lot of research. The opinions I have are just my opinions, take them or leave them, and please do your own homework. Everyone has to decide for themselves what they should feed their dog. *


I give the SM members here a lot of credit. They are certainly smart enough to read my posts and form their own opinions. SM members can take the time to google further information on my posts for themselves, or go to the library and read books, or consult their vet. 

Yes, some vets think grains are fine, and some vets do not. And on and on it goes. Everyone has an opinion, and for every opinion, I can find scientific research and at least some professional or expert in that field, etc., to back up an opinion. Until there are results from long-term, double blind studies which are funded by impartial sources regarding grain feeding in dogs, I'll stick with my own opinion. And you are certainly welcome to stick to yours. 

You seem determined to censor me. If the other members or the moderators think that I should be censored, then they need to speak up now. However, I didn't read anywhere in the Forum Guidelines where it stated that only experts in each specific field were allowed to post their opinions and thoughts. 

Should I not be allowed to voice my opinion because I disagree with you? 





vjw said:


> Again, Suzan there's some partial truths in your post, but there's some misleading/unsubstantiated info. here.
> 
> 
> For instance, with food allergies, I thought it was well known that some proteins in dog food are more of a problem than grains.
> ...


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

vjw said:


> Again, Suzan there's some partial truths in your post, but there's some misleading/unsubstantiated info. here.
> 
> 
> For instance, with food allergies, I thought it was well known that some proteins in dog food are more of a problem than grains.
> ...



joy - i think your tone is insulting to someone who was only stating her opinion and said as much. believe whomever you'd like, but i'm going to stick with advice i get from nutritional experts that are NOT trained or subsidized by the dog food and pharmaceutical industry. have a look at the sponsers of the American Animal Hospital Association website to see what i mean.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

tamizami said:


> joy - i think your tone is insulting to someone who was only stating her opinion and said as much. believe whomever you'd like, but i'm going to stick with advice i get from nutritional experts that are NOT trained or subsidized by the dog food and pharmaceutical industry. have a look at the sponsers of the American Animal Hospital Association website to see what i mean.


 

Tami, because the dog food industry is about a 15 billion industry in the US alone, the other side has their agendas for marketing dog food and supplements too. Usually these other dog food companies don't have the years of research on canine nutrition that the older companies have. I've stated before, that I think it's a positive thing that veterinary schools collaborate with dog food companies and share their research info.


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## poochie2 (Jan 14, 2010)

Susan......... I thank you very much for your great knowlege and information. I am so glad you take the time to give your utmost honest opinions. We really appreciate your input and I hope that you don't pay any attention to the negative comments that others have posted. There are always people who like to stir things up. Thanks again Susan:thumbsup:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

vjw said:


> Tami, because the dog food industry is about a 15 billion industry in the US alone, the other side has their agendas for marketing dog food and supplements too. Usually these other dog food companies don't have the years of research on canine nutrition that the older companies have. I've stated before, that I think it's a positive thing that veterinary schools collaborate with dog food companies and share their research info.



Dog food companies exist to make a profit. They sell mostly crappy castoffs from the human food processing industry. They can cite studies that say the food is good for dogs Hmm, okay.... But those studies happen due to grants from pet food companies and Pharma. One has to be pretty naive to think that there is no bias going on. 

Show me the results a long-term, double-blind research study on canine nutrition that is not funded directly or indirectly by a Pet Food company or a Pharmaceutical company. Show me a scientist in Veterinary nutrition who doesn't receive grants from that industry itself or a related industry. Show me a Veterinary school that has zero endowments from anyone related to the pet food or the pharmaceutical industry. Show me a Veterinarian who hasn't been trained in pet nutrition by an employee of Hill's. Show me a Veterinarian who doesn't get a commission for selling prescription food or a vaccine.

Until you or anyone else can show me these things, I will keep my opinion as it is, thank you.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Dog food companies exist to make a profit. They sell mostly crappy castoffs from the human food processing industry. They can cite studies that say the food is good for dogs Hmm, okay.... But those studies happen due to grants from pet food companies and Pharma. One has to be pretty naive to think that there is no bias going on.
> 
> Show me the results a long-term, double-blind research study on canine nutrition that is not funded directly or indirectly by a Pet Food company or a Pharmaceutical company. Show me a scientist in Veterinary nutrition who doesn't receive grants from that industry itself or a related industry. Show me a Veterinary school that has zero endowments from anyone related to the pet food or the pharmaceutical industry. Show me a Veterinarian who hasn't been trained in pet nutrition by an employee of Hill's. Show me a Veterinarian who doesn't get a commission for selling prescription food or a vaccine.
> 
> Until you or anyone else can show me these things, I will keep my opinion as it is, thank you.


 

Suzan, this is interesting in light of the fact that you get your information from sources which promotes certain foods and supplements.


There's studies that's gone on for years and years, and around the world on veterinary nutrition. There's many, many professionals, organizations, and food companies that conduct and oversee research on US canine nutritional requirements. I think it's wise to look at the whole picture. Again, one reason I've been upset at some of the posts is that they've included misinformation that's put out by new dog food companies or companies trying to sell supplements. It's a red flag to me if a company criticizes the FDA or the American Association of Feed Control Officials. It usually means they haven't met their standards. 

Back to your question Suzan, where besides Hills?

IAMS/Eukanuba
Pedigree
NestlePurina
Nutro
Royal Canin
Waltham
Cornell, the nation's top ranked veterinary university.
Ohio State
UC Davis
US National Research Council (govt)
American College of Veterinary Nutrition
American Society for Nutrition
American Society for Clinical Nutrition
American Society for Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition
Association of American Feed Control Officials
Comparative Nutrition Society ConsumerLab
European College of Veterinary and Comparative Nutrition (although it's not US, I think there's collaboration and sharing of study results with them)
FDA Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
NIH office of Dietary Supplements
NIH National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine
Pet Food Institute
Pet Food Institute Consumer Guide
USDA Food and Nutrition Information Center
US Pharmacopeia Dietary Supplement Verification Program


This is only a partial list of the ones I'm aware of with connections to veterinary/canine nutrition. As I'm in no way connected with veterinary medicine nor the dog food industry, I'm sure there's many more. Also, there's information about canine nutrition gleaned from human nutrition research, zoo research, large animal research. . . . . . .




******

Just wanted to add an addendum to this post. The reason I mentioned the dog food companies is that they're companies that I respect the information they've contributed from their years of canine nutritional research.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

vjw said:


> Suzan, this is interesting in light of the fact that you get your information from sources which promotes certain foods and supplements.
> 
> 
> There's studies that's gone on for years and years, and around the world on veterinary nutrition. There's many, many professionals, organizations, and food companies that conduct and oversee research on US canine nutritional requirements. I think it's wise to look at the whole picture. Again, one reason I've been upset at some of the posts is that they've included misinformation that's put out by new dog food companies or companies trying to sell supplements. It's a red flag to me if a company criticizes the FDA or the American Association of Feed Control Officials. It usually means they haven't met their standards.
> ...





You really have no idea where I get my info from, so please don't make that assumption.

I post some links here, but I read vastly more than that, don't always bookmark it, and don't always provide all of my reading links. I read medical journals when I can get access. People who have access sometimes send them to me. I read books. I talk to veterinarians. 

You wrote: _It's a red flag to me if a company criticizes the FDA or the American Association of Feed Control Officials. It usually means they haven't met their standards._

Well, that is an assumption on your part once again about a company.

And this is the core of our disagreement I do not hold FDA or AAFCO in high esteem. So for someone to blindly accept anything they say is a red flag to me.

Like I've said before, you are entitled to your opinion, and have every right to express it here. But to personally go after me is simply wrong. I have a right to my opinions. You are not the god of nutrition or veterinary science, and neither you nor I have infallible information to provide. 

We will have to end this now because I don't have the time to debate you. We will have to end it by agreeing to disagree. You'll see no further posts from me to you.


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## Kitkat (Mar 24, 2010)

MandyMc65 said:


> Great info Suzan!!
> 
> I asked our local seller about the Paw Naturaw and she said the reason she does not carry it is simply the cost. Most people will not choose to buy that over the Stella's. We discussed the fact that it is certified organic and Stella's is not. Apparently Stella's uses smaller farms that cannot afford to be certified organic. Or they choose not to spend the money so they can keep costs down . This keeps the certified organic symbol off of the bag, but does not necessarily mean the meat is not organic. For me, I chose to stay with Stella's since it works great for my dogs, I can buy it locally and I trust the company.
> 
> I think a good quality diet is incredibly important for our dogs. The upfront costs may be a bit more, but there are no hidden costs. They have less health issues, they live longer and they are happier! Not to mention, mine seem to have very minimal or zero tear stains.


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you Suzanne. :ThankYou: Great thread and I appreciated that it sort of summarized the various options out there....it can be so confusing for us newbies...especially when we want to start our pups off in the best possible way. I've been researching and I was simply appalled and astonished by all the commercial yucky stuff that my local pet store was stocked with. I asked someone that was supposed to be an expert, at the store and he directed me to more yucky, meat by-product junk.:angry: saying "this is the absolute best, expensive but if you love your dog...." I wanted to bop him over the head. 
It's really frustrating so I'm now looking at Raw myself but thanks for that kibble suggestion too. I was looking at Stella & Chewey's myself as I think I can get some locally...the store that I think carries it is not around the corner but it's at least in my state! :biggrin: So THANK YOU TOO TO MANDY Mc65 FOR THE INFO about the Organic Label for this company.
One question that comes to mind about the raw treats though is how do you handle these? Literally? I mean usually you give treats as a reward while training and it happens that you want to take some with you, say, when you go out? How do you avoid handling raw food with treats? Dumb question maybe, but I'm a sort of germaphobic so if anyone has any suggestions.....also I suppose washing their bowl at each meal is especially important with raw correct? Do you use specifi products? What I mean is, when I handle raw meats, I wipe down my counter-tops with bleach or clorox wipes or anything that'll kill the bacteria...
Oh, another thing - I was just on the Stella & Chewey's website and they, if I'm not mistaken, have either frozen or freeze-dried? Not dehydrated which is different, correct? I think I read somewhere that freeze-dried is better than dehydrated b/c it retains more of the nutrients? On this last point, I may be repeat questioning info that has already been addressed in this thread so I'll come back and re-read later when I have more time.
Thanks to all - this thread and the posts are really helping make some sense out of the whole food thingy....now if I could just find a store by me that actually carries this stuff.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I use Stella and Chewy's Carnivore Kisses dehydrated Salmon treats. I get them on amazon. They're dehydrated, and I don't handle them any differently than I do any other treat.


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## Kitkat (Mar 24, 2010)

MandyMc65 said:


> Stella's is ready to go. Has all organic veggies and the vitamins and minerals. It's a balanced meal. They just reconfigured their dehydrated beef to make that fully balanced as well.
> I buy the frozen raw and thaw it out b/c it is much more cost effective than the dehydrated and it has had less processing (didn't go through the dehydration process). I always have the dehydrated on hand in case I forget to thaw some or want to do training for dinners instead. You can always add water to the dehydrated but I don't do that very often. It is also great for traveling! I also used the dehydrated to do the transfer from kibble to raw.
> I've looked at Dr. Harvey's but it involves cooking and buying meat so I didn't get it. I also saw that I think only a couple have no grains. But I hear it works great for some people (dogs)!



This is a great suggestion - I have a quick question though...by Dehydrated do you mean the freeze-dried? I was on their website and they mention just frozen and freeze-dried. Is there a dehydrated too? So sorry if this is a repeat question but I think my brain is having a meltdown today. I'm going to order some stuff online today. Thanks again! 
P.S. I think the info or better yet, opinions (hee, hee) Suzanne shares are very valuable and useful. I'm not getting at all the impression that she's steering people in the wrong direction...Personally, I find it very helpful and usefull to learn about different research backed prospectives so thanks and please keep posting.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Kitkat said:


> This is a great suggestion - I have a quick question though...by Dehydrated do you mean the freeze-dried? I was on their website and they mention just frozen and freeze-dried. Is there a dehydrated too? So sorry if this is a repeat question but I think my brain is having a meltdown today. I'm going to order some stuff online today. Thanks again!
> P.S. I think the info or better yet, opinions (hee, hee) Suzanne shares are very valuable and useful. I'm not getting at all the impression that she's steering people in the wrong direction...Personally, I find it very helpful and usefull to learn about different research backed prospectives so thanks and please keep posting.



Yes, it's freeze-dried. I seem to use freeze-dried and dehydrated interchangeably, but they are different processes.


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## Kitkat (Mar 24, 2010)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Yes, it's freeze-dried. I seem to use freeze-dried and dehydrated interchangeably, but they are different processes.



Thanks Suzan...I was curious as I read up somewhere on the difference with one being better then the other. 
I just ordered a couple of containers of the kisses and the crunchies from Amazon. Hope he'll like those as training treats. I still don't know what to do about his meals when he comes home since they seem to be feeding their dogs mostly dry kibble and the Ceasar canned (yuck) I most certainly don't have the time but home cooking is beg. to sound more and more appealing.

P.S. I can't find it now but besides the coco oil (which I just ordered from Amazon as well) was it you that posted about a specific salmon or lemon cod liver oil brand? 

Thanks again and have a great weekend everyone!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I change up oils a lot, so bear with my fickle nature, lol. 

Right now I am using Iceland pure unscented anchovy/sardine oil. I believe one of our SM vendors, Pampered Pet Boutique, sells it, and it is also available online in other places. 

The other oil that I have used is a human-grade oil, Carlsons Finest Fish oil, lemon flavored. 

I've also used straight salmon oil, and I think that the brand was Iceland Pure as well.

Hope this helps.


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## Kaijah (Apr 20, 2010)

I've experimented a bit with various dry kibble brands... I'm lucky enough to have a small shop near me with a lot of fairly nice stuff willing to do small batches. Mine wouldn't touch Innova for some Maltie-only known reason, Canidae seemed to cause tummy upsets.

I didn't really like Natural Balance for them, IMO it's pretty expensive for something that has more potato content than meat. Merrick has the same problem, I think, because their first meat product is listed as the whole animal (inclusive of water content), so after being dried wouldn't really be the first ingredient. Then they have some grains, _then_ back it up with a meat meal product.

I looked into Taste of the Wild stuff, and their ingredients *look* good, but I believe they still use a fair amount of ethoxyquin so I skipped trying them.

They like Fromm pretty well, the Salmon variety the most, then the Chicken one. They didn't get along well with the Duck version, though. These have some grain content, but not a lot and it's mostly oatmeal/barley and my three do okay with those.

I usually add some cooked meat (fish, chicken, beef, whatever we're having for dinner really) to one meal to boost their protein a bit, regardless of the kibble they're on. Also, I tend to drizzle a bit of coconut oil over their food in the mornings.

I do want to try something grain free - probably either Orijen Six Fish, Acana Pacifica or Wellness Core. Experimenting with home cooking is also something I want to do more of this summer, when I'll have a lot of time to spend fiddling around and seeing what they like. I figure it can't end up costing too much more vs quality kibble if I plan properly. I think I'm just scared I won't get them all the nutrients they need and/or I'll have to unexpectedly go somewhere and need something sitter-easy to feed...


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I've been using Dr. Harvey's Veg-To-Bowl for a couple of days now, since I have an insane schedule for the next couple of weeks. Nikki loves it, and it's easier than home-cooking from scratch. I roasted a chicken the other night, and I've been mixing chicken in with the Veg-To-Bowl and adding the oil. I'll probably keep Nikki on it for a few weeks.


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

Krill Oil has been getting some attention lately, anyone have any thoughts about it?


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Suzan thank you for taking the time to start & contribute to this thread, its very informative! Even tho we cant get any of these brands mentioned here in Au, I still find this type of topic very interesting!

Thanks to everyone else for contributing too! Its always great to read other's OPINIONS on things


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

totallytotontuffy said:


> Krill Oil has been getting some attention lately, anyone have any thoughts about it?


Ive not heard of it before Deb, but going to The Google now.....


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I've heard of Krill Oil, and some people claim to love it, but I've never used it myself. It's another fish oil, and I may use it someday as I like to rotate omega oils. Dr. Becker advises people to use it for their dogs in her recipe book.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I wanted to clarify a few things so that we all keep our dogs as healthy as possible. Some things I said earlier may be construed as too black-and-white. I'm not that dogmatic, as each dog has to be taken as an individual, and each person has their own lifestyle. 

1. Puppies have different nutritional requirements than adult dogs, and that is why most vets will discourage home cooking until a puppy is at least 8 months old. If you plan to home cook for your puppy right from the start, you must be diligent in ensuring it gets the proper nutrients during those crucial growth stages of puppyhood. I encourage you seek out the advice of a holistic vet, veterinary nutritionist, or an animal naturopath, either in person, by phone, or online if you want to home cook right from the start and aren't knowledgeable in canine nutrition. Yes, it can be expensive, but it really is a one-time cost, and it could save you money in the long-run.

2. Some dogs can eat good quality, low-allergen grains, like rice or millet or quinoa, and not have any adverse reactions at all. Nikki does fine on white rice. (Brown rice doesn't seem to agree with her.) While Nikki eats a grain-free diet, every once in a while, I'll feed her white rice for variety and I give her organic cheerio-type treats occasionally. But grains are not an everyday diet staple for her, or for me either. That's my personal choice. 

3. These are the foods that *I *wouldn't feed a dog: soy, corn, wheat. To a lesser degree, oats and barley. If one wishes to feed a vegetable oil, like canola, then choosing organic is preferred, as most canola (rapeseed) is now genetically modified, and genetic modification of foods is still not proven to be safe, imo.

4. I totally understand if people need to feed kibble for whatever reasons. I just ask that you look at alternatives to kibble, and if they don't fit your budget or lifestyle, then buy the best kibble you can afford, but rotate it out with another good quality kibble with a different protein every 4 months or so. If you find 2 good quality commercial foods that don't cause any adverse reactions in your dog, then rotating them for variety is a good plan. Getting a yearly medical check up and blood work is a great way to tell whether your dog is thriving and has no issues.

5. If your dog has any health problems at all, you will need to customize their food to that particular concern. I always suggest that you seek out a health professional's advice on a home-cooked recipe if your dog has *ANY *type of health condition. 

6. Raw food is not perfect for every single dog in the universe, imo. Grains are not okay for every dog, just as grain-free is not for every single dog. We all have our opinions, but each dog is an individual and should be treated as such. 

7. You are your dog's advocate, and no one can tell you how to raise your dog, not me, not the vet, the groomer, etc. You can take in all these opinions here, and other places, but ultimately it is you who has to decide. 

I've pet-sat for dogs whose owners have abdicated the responsibility of their dog's health to uninformed, overworked vets, and/or poor-quality dog food. The owners and dogs have paid the price for it with behavioral issues, poor health, and outrageous vet bills. And the poor dogs suffered as a result of the owner's irresponsibility. Shelters are full of discarded dogs. Some of those poor dogs simply needed some good quality food to help with their health and behavior issues, yet they will be euthanized instead, because an owner didn't want to be bothered thinking about the quality of their dog's food. 

I love dogs, and I want to see them all healthy and happy, and I want them all to live a long, pain-free life. I would never want to suggest something that would hurt a dog, so please, learn all you can from all different sources to decide how you are going to raise your dog.

Mostly everyone I run into these days is overworked, tired, and watching their money. We all do the best we can.


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## totallytotontuffy (May 16, 2007)

Suzan, I think the majority of us understand your intentions and I personally appreciate your informative posts. I recognize that when I read recommendations and suggestions by others, it is up to me to determine either through additional research or trial and error, if something is beneficial or will work for me or my dogs. 

How often will someone rave about a shampoo, toy, food only for others to respond that they didn't have the same results? It is the sharing of our own experiences and research that makes this board so valuable to me. My view is evaluate/research what is being suggested and take what works and discard what doesn't. 

Our little community has always been so helpful on so many levels, especially when our dogs are ill and we are in a panic. There is always someone that will step up to the plate and offer advice or a hug and it means so much when you are the one in a panic. 

So thank you for being there.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

totallytotontuffy said:


> Suzan, I think the majority of us understand your intentions and I personally appreciate your informative posts. I recognize that when I read recommendations and suggestions by others, it is up to me to determine either through additional research or trial and error, if something is beneficial or will work for me or my dogs.
> 
> How often will someone rave about a shampoo, toy, food only for others to respond that they didn't have the same results? It is the sharing of our own experiences and research that makes this board so valuable to me. My view is evaluate/research what is being suggested and take what works and discard what doesn't.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I am passionate about certain subjects, and I know that I can seem overbearing and dogmatic in the heat of a discussion. I don't like it when someone lumps either people or dogs into one sterotypical group with no individuality, so I always try to be mindful of not doing that myself.


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## miss Eve (Sep 26, 2009)

*Stew Recipe*

This is my first post but I just have to share a recipe I found yesterday. It makes a tremendous lot but can be frozen in individual containers. I made it yesterday for my kid Toby, who is 11 months old because he was getting bored with the food I was giving him which was Natural Balance kibble and also wet. Well let me tell you what, when it was time for supper, (I mixed about half a cup of the stew, thats what I call it and the same amount of kibble) he couldn't finish fast enough and it made me happy to see the little feller eat with such gusto. I used stew meat since nothing is too good for my kid and cut it into small cubes. You can find the recipe here:

Recipezaar.com In the search box enter 187682


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

miss Eve said:


> This is my first post but I just have to share a recipe I found yesterday. It makes a tremendous lot but can be frozen in individual containers. I made it yesterday for my kid Toby, who is 11 months old because he was getting bored with the food I was giving him which was Natural Balance kibble and also wet. Well let me tell you what, when it was time for supper, (I mixed about half a cup of the stew, thats what I call it and the same amount of kibble) he couldn't finish fast enough and it made me happy to see the little feller eat with such gusto. I used stew meat since nothing is too good for my kid and cut it into small cubes. You can find the recipe here:
> 
> Recipezaar.com In the search box enter 187682


I don't see where it specifies what supplements you have to add to that recipe. Dogs have a very high calcium requirement, much higher than we do. Most recipes call for bone meal, calcium or even a Tums to be added to fulfill that need.

The phosphorus to calcium ratio must be correct, 1.2 parts calcium to each 1 part phosphorus. 

Here's a great article:

Calcium & Phosphorous in Dogs* - Chinaroad Lowchens of Australia -

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but it's advised to get a complete blood chemistry done about six months after switching to home cooking to make sure all the nutritional needs are being met.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

miss Eve said:


> This is my first post but I just have to share a recipe I found yesterday. It makes a tremendous lot but can be frozen in individual containers. I made it yesterday for my kid Toby, who is 11 months old because he was getting bored with the food I was giving him which was Natural Balance kibble and also wet. Well let me tell you what, when it was time for supper, (I mixed about half a cup of the stew, thats what I call it and the same amount of kibble) he couldn't finish fast enough and it made me happy to see the little feller eat with such gusto. I used stew meat since nothing is too good for my kid and cut it into small cubes. You can find the recipe here:
> 
> Recipezaar.com In the search box enter 187682


Welcome to the forum! 

Thanks for sharing your recipe. 

Maybe a calcium supplement and a multi vitamin might be needed to make this a nice recipe for a dog who does okay on barley. But I'd have to run it by a vet or plug the data in nutritiondata.com to see if it's balanced, so I don't really know.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

Calcium is one of the supplements you really have to be careful about recommending. Too much can be a bad thing and for large breeds can cause orthopedic bone disease.

https://www.petdiets.com/Myths/page5.asp


Please, please if you are feeding your dog a homemade diet, made sure it is a diet recommended by a board certified veterinary nutritionist. 

The American College of Veterinary Nutrition has these two sites linked for pet diet evaluations:

Welcome to the Balance IT® Web Site

Welcome to Pet Diets


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Joy, you are right about recommending calcium, so I went back and edited my post. But,* I used to *recommend the Balance IT recipes. But then I educated myself on corn oil, which is what they recommend in their sample recipes. IMO, there are better omega 6 oils. Corn oil is very inflammatory.

Effect of different levels of dietary trans fat or... [J Natl Cancer Inst. 1985] - PubMed result

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/04/do-seed-oils-cause-multi-generational.html

My holistic veterinarian used the Veterinarian's Balance IT site to create my dog's original recipe but we later tweaked it.


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## miss Eve (Sep 26, 2009)

*re recipe*

Now I'm confused and not understanding what it is you all are trying to help me with. If you will go back to recipezaar.com 187682 and where it gives the nutrition facts, at the bottom click on detailed view. It seems to me there is enough of everything thats needed. In my original post I negelected to mention that Toby gets kibble only for his morning meal. I'd beat myself if I did anything that would harm my little soul mate.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

miss Eve said:


> Now I'm confused and not understanding what it is you all are trying to help me with. If you will go back to recipezaar.com 187682 and where it gives the nutrition facts, at the bottom click on detailed view. It seems to me there is enough of everything thats needed. In my original post I negelected to mention that Toby gets kibble only for his morning meal. I'd beat myself if I did anything that would harm my little soul mate.


Is the nutritional information for humans or dogs? I don't know anything about Recipezaar.com so I can't really comment on the site's nutritional info. If your dog is doing okay on it and the vet says he's healthy, then please don't worry too much.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

vjw said:


> Calcium is one of the supplements you really have to be careful about recommending. Too much can be a bad thing and for large breeds can cause orthopedic bone disease.
> 
> https://www.petdiets.com/Myths/page5.asp
> 
> ...


True. That's why I posted the link above. Too much calcium can cause problems as can too little. The calcium to phosphorus ratio has to be precise, 1.2 parts calcium to each 1 part phosphorus. 

That's why, as you say, it needs to be a diet prepared by a veterinary nutritionist. And also why it is so important to get a complete blood chemistry done six months after you have switched to a homecooked diet.

I have heard positive feedback about Balance IT.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

I have only one question. Is YOUR diet as well BALANCED as the diet you recommend for your dogs ? Geez sometimes you make me wonder. I had a dog who lived 17 years on only meat and sausage. No veggies, no supplements, no dog food. He was a happy dog until he died. Rarely needed a vet. Alex is almost 13 and has never had a supplement in his life. If it would not be for his heart murmur he would be the healthiest dog ! I don't go out of my way to make a balanced diet. At 13, you would never know that he had surgery on both of his back legs. He looks as young as a puppy. And Marj, all over those years, his blood panel chemistry has always been perfect. I am coming from Europe and we don't have that love affair with vitamins and supplements that you have here in the States. After all you don't live longer than the Europeans. So why spend the money on all that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I tried some of that stuff, never felt a difference. But, hey, if you believe in it, be my guest.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

MalteseJane said:


> I have only one question. Is YOUR diet as well BALANCED as the diet you recommend for your dogs ? Geez sometimes you make me wonder. I had a dog who lived 17 years on only meat and sausage. No veggies, no supplements, no dog food. He was a happy dog until he died. Rarely needed a vet. Alex is almost 13 and has never had a supplement in his life. If it would not be for his heart murmur he would be the healthiest dog ! I don't go out of my way to make a balanced diet. At 13, you would never know that he had surgery on both of his back legs. He looks as young as a puppy. And Marj, all over those years, his blood panel chemistry has always been perfect. I am coming from Europe and we don't have that love affair with vitamins and supplements that you have here in the States. After all you don't live longer than the Europeans. So why spend the money on all that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I tried some of that stuff, never felt a difference. But, hey, if you believe in it, be my guest.



I'm not sure who you are addressing with your remarks. 

I'm glad you have had positive experiences raising dogs feeding them only meat. 

I partially agree with you. 

In my case, I take supplements because over the years for one reason or another, I had a very poor diet which did some damage to my body, so I am trying to help it heal using supplements AND good food. 

In my dog's case, she has a mild liver condition, so I make sure her diet is as good as it can be, so that she lives a long pain-free life. 

There are many factors that go into health and disease, too many to talk about here. 

There are people that I know who have eaten only meat (with fat) for years. Most of them are slim, extremely healthy and fit, with ZERO health problems. It's all anecdotal evidence, of course, because who would fund a study about that? But the info is out there if anyone wants to research it on their own, I won't put details here. IMO, I think that most dogs and humans can probably live their entire lives eating just meat, fat, and fish. Well-known Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson lived 12 years with the Inuit people and ate only meat and fat and he was extremely healthy. He documented his experiences in a book, and you'll find some excerpts here:

Vilhjalmur Stefansson: Adventures in Diet - presented by Dr. Bass

http://www.amazon.com/Not-bread-alone-Vilhjalmur-Stefansson/dp/B0007DU4BA


There is neither time nor space here, to get into the myriad of information that must be researched and discussed regarding a meat-only diet. _It takes a lot of research to understand how and why could work._ So folks, please don't flame me or try to argue out the point with me, I won't engage in a debate on it. It would take way too long. It's simply my opinion from reading info on it. Anyone is welcome to track down the info online themselves, and do their own research. *I'm NOT recommending it. *

I personally enjoy my food too much to limit it to just one thing.

Yes, it is quite possible to live totally without supplements, if you are out in the sunshine every day. Many supplements today are really worthless garbage. That's why I research them a lot before I make my choices.

I don't want to get into why questionable farming/ranching practices, mineral soil depletion in the US, chemicals in the air and water, or in plastics, all contribute to poor health. Too much information to discuss here. But let's just say, the world isn't what it used to be, that's why I'm careful.

The way I see it, feeding my dog a healthy, varied diet, ensuring she gets enough calcium, and adding some fish oil for her skin and coat, is like a small amount of insurance against easily preventable diseases/discomforts. If I was only able to feed myself and Nikki only one food item, it would be meat. But I'm glad we have other options.


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## lovesophie (Jan 28, 2008)

Nikki's Mom said:


> I'm not sure who you are addressing with your remarks.
> 
> I'm glad you have had positive experiences raising dogs feeding them only meat.
> 
> ...


And to that I say, :amen:. 
:dancing banana:


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## msaldo (Feb 6, 2021)

Nikki's Mom said:


> Since there are several newbies here, and I've received a couple of PM's, I thought I'd post my thoughts on food for our fluffs.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm just a cranky old lady who is very picky about what my dog eats. I have no formal schooling in canine nutrition. I have an inquisitive nature and I do a lot of research. The opinions I have are just my opinions, take them or leave them, and please do your own homework. Everyone has to decide for themselves what they should feed their dog.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your post. Very helpful!


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