# Puppy without AKC registration? - Help



## newmalt (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi,
I was given a choice that without the registration (limited only), it will be $500 less. When I indicated I wanted the AKC limited registration, I was told that it was really not necessary. That any pet store or puppy mill can provide a registration, but it does not mean that the puppy is of good quality. And the purpose of going with a reputable breeder is that I am guaranteed a good puppy. The breeder did not want to give more money to AKC. The breeder indicated I will be given the parents name. He also indicated he does DNA testing, so AKC registration is really not necessay. 

This breeder is well regarded in this forum and I can see the breeder's point, so I agreed and paid a non-refundable deposit. But the more I research and look into this forum, the more I feel that I should have the registration. I did email the breeder saying I would like to have the registration. I am sure he is not happy. I don't know what his response will be. I may end up looking for another puppy or stuck with one without registration, since I already gave my deposit.

What do you think, should I really be concerned that the puppy will not have registration? This breeder is very reputable and well known. Definitely not a BYB or a puppy mill.


Thanks,
Irene


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

First of all, from what I understand, a limited registration is mainly for those selling pets. The dog is still registered with the AKC but any puppies produced by the dog will not be eligible for registration. Unless you are buying the dog intending to breed it and then sell the puppies as AKC registered (which I hope you are not intending to do), then a limited registration should be perfectly fine IMO.

Here is a link from the AKC which talks about registration : Limited Registration


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## newmalt (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi,
The puppy will be spayed by the breeder and will be a family pet for us.

I understand that the puppy is eligible for limited AKC registration. The breeder is recommending that I do not do the limited AKC registration.

Should I be concerned?

Thanks,
Irene


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

There is no reason why you should not receive the limited registration from AKC. I don't understand why the breeder doesn't want to give it. The discount makes me wonder. Registration doesn't prove quality but it does prove the dog is pure bred unless the papers are falsified.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Sounds like the breeder isn't going to register the litter. Not sure why he wouldn't though....I think if they produce too many litters the AKC will do an investigation on the breeder. (I think ). Could it be he's trying to avoid that? I'm just rambling on here of course. Hope someone else can provide you with a better answer.

Do you know the litter's Dam and Sire? You can look up their pedigrees on line....just a thought....


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

newmalt said:


> Hi,
> The puppy will be spayed by the breeder and will be a family pet for us.
> 
> I understand that the puppy is eligible for limited AKC registration. The breeder is recommending that I do not do the limited AKC registration.
> ...


Yes. If you are feeling 'red flags' now...better think long and hard before continuing the purchase. A relationship with a breeder goes beyond just the initial purchase. If you aren't feeling satisfied with responses you are getting from this breeder so early in the game, imagine if you have any other problems with this puppy. Too bad you paid a non-refundable deposit...but better to learn from this experience and just walk away if you aren't feeling right about things. Doesn't matter what other people experienced - not everyone gets the same feelings from the same breeders regardless of how well they are spoken of on this forum. 

How old is this puppy that the breeder is spaying it before sale? This is also unusual. Usually they require proof of spay (that *you* do this when they are old enought)... ??



Cosy said:


> There is no reason why you should not receive the limited registration from AKC. I don't understand why the breeder doesn't want to give it. The discount makes me wonder. Registration doesn't prove quality but it does prove the dog is pure bred unless the papers are falsified.


I wouldn't pay a premium price for a pure/well bred puppy either if the breeder isn't going to pony up limited registration papers. I would keep looking...





*Disclaimer: I am responding as if you are an honest to goodness new poster with a real concern and not just trying to stir things up here... but there is something about these postings that are making me go HHHhhhhmmmm....*


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm confused. What are your choices ... (1) an AKC limited registration; and (2) no registration at all?

As for registering vs. not registering, giving more money to the AKC is an excuse that just does not make sense!! It costs $27 plus $2/puppy in the litter to register them. I registered a litter of 4 not long ago. It cost me $35. Divide that out over 4 puppies and the cost is $8.75/puppy. Why would anyone discount the puppy by $500 to save $8.75? I can only think of three reasons why a puppy would not be AKC registered: (1) it is not eligible to be registered because its parents are either not registered or are on a limited registration (which means no breeding); (2) the breeder is not sure who the sire is and does not want to spend the money to do a DNA parentage check; or (3) the breeder has already registered enough litters this year that registering one more might trigger an automatic AKC inspection and the breeder has a reason for not wanting the inspection.

And, about your non-refundable deposit ... you said in your first post on this forum yesterday morning that you are looking for a puppy. Today you have paid a non-refundable deposit? If you did that by check you could put a stop payment on it. When did you pay the deposit and by what means?

Are you having a bile acid test done on your puppy before you bring it home?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

It's only $25 to register a litter so the argument that the breeder doesn't want to give more money to the AKC doesn't hold water. Selling a puppy for $500 less w/o registration is a big red flag for me, similar to breeders charging extra for full registration.

You say that the breeder is reputable, well known and highly regarded on the forum, but have you actually spoken to anyone who has gotten a Maltese from him? Been to his home?


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

MaryH said:


> I'm confused. What are your choices ... (1) an AKC limited registration; and (2) no registration at all?
> 
> As for registering vs. not registering, giving more money to the AKC is an excuse that just does not make sense!! It costs $27 plus $2/puppy in the litter to register them. I registered a litter of 4 not long ago. It cost me $35. Divide that out over 4 puppies and the cost is $8.75/puppy. Why would anyone discount the puppy by $500 to save $8.75? I can only think of three reasons why a puppy would not be AKC registered: (1) it is not eligible to be registered because its parents are either not registered or are on a limited registration (which means no breeding); (2) the breeder is not sure who the sire is and does not want to spend the money to do a DNA parentage check; or (3) *the breeder has already registered enough litters this year that registering one more might trigger an automatic AKC inspection and the breeder has a reason for not wanting the inspection*.


 

Yikes... that thought removes me previous disclaimer. 
But why is the breeder spaying the puppy before delivery?


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

It sounds like they aren't being totally honest in my opinion. If they have a legitimate reason for not registering the litter or giving you limited AKC papers then they should be more open with you about it. Saying papers aren't necessary or that they don't want to give money to AKC (which is only $25 to register a litter) isn't really a good explanation and makes it seem like they are hiding something.


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## newmalt (Dec 26, 2010)

The DOB is 10/2/2010. The breeder said he will have to wait until she is 12 weeks old and she will get spayed and will remain with the breeder for a week. She will then be hand delivered by mid January.

I will wait to hear from the breeder. 

Thanks,
Irene


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

newmalt said:


> The DOB is 10/2/2010. The breeder said he will have to wait until she is 12 weeks old and she will get spayed and will remain with the breeder for a week. She will then be hand delivered by mid January.
> 
> I will wait to hear from the breeder.
> 
> ...


If the breeder will hand deliver the puppy, is he local? Have you been to his house to see the situation for yourself?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

newmalt said:


> The DOB is 10/2/2010. The breeder said he will have to wait until she is 12 weeks old and she will get spayed and will remain with the breeder for a week. She will then be hand delivered by mid January.
> 
> I will wait to hear from the breeder.
> 
> ...


*No knowledgeable Maltese breeder will spay a Maltese puppy at 12 weeks of age.*


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Mary, could you report a breeder for doing something like that (spaying at that young an age?)


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## newmalt (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes, the choice were (1) limited AKC registration (2) no registration at all.

I did email the breeder. I followed up with a call just now and spoke with someone else, who will forward my message. The person does not think that doing the limited AKC registration will be an issue.

However, I was told under no circumstances will the puppy leave without being spayed. All their puppies go out spayed/neutered.

There are a few members here that did purchase their babies from this breeder and they have indicated that they were happy, as a response to previous posters. Others have already asked the question so I did not think of asking again.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

There are different opinions on pediatric spays and neuters so spaying at 12 weeks is NOT an indication of anything wrong in my opinon. I actually think that it's a good idea to spay/neuter before pet puppies leave so that there is no way that someone can breed when they aren't supposed to. Like I said, there are different opinions on this and it's something each breeder, vet, and pet owner has to decide what they are comfortable with. It's not a black and white issue. However, the no papers and the reason given is suspicious


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Yikes...seems so young  Thanks for answering - didn't know if spaying that young was unethical or not. Just seems way too young


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

newmalt said:


> Yes, the choice were (1) limited AKC registration (2) no registration at all.
> 
> I did email the breeder. I followed up with a call just now and spoke with someone else, who will forward my message. The person does not think that doing the limited AKC registration will be an issue.
> 
> ...


I would PM those people and not go by what was said publicly.


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## Orla (Jul 5, 2009)

MaryH said:


> *No knowledgeable Maltese breeder will spay a Maltese puppy at 12 weeks of age.*


:goodpost:


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## newmalt (Dec 26, 2010)

I called my vet and was told that while they don't do spaying until 6 months old, some breeders may want to spay at 12 weeks and that is okay.

I put a hold on the down payment which was made via credit card, until I get confirmation from the breeder that I will get limited AKC registration. 

The breeder did say I have the option of doing limited registration. I am speculating that the additional cost of $500 is because he will need to do DNA testing? I don't know.

To be fair to the breeder, his puppies usually cost more than I could afford. 
I was surprised and jumping for joy when he called me. But he was willing to give me a break. And I think that maybe he was thinking he could save us both unnecessary expenses, since the puppy will be spayed and will be a pet. So the puppy will be the last to be eligible to register.

I am confused what to do at this point. Maybe the breeder will call me and refuse to give me his baby. 

I will just have to wait it out and see what happens.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

newmalt said:


> I called my vet and was told that while they don't do spaying until 6 months old, some breeders may want to spay at 12 weeks and that is okay.
> 
> I put a hold on the down payment which was made via credit card, until I get confirmation from the breeder that I will get limited AKC registration.
> 
> ...



Since the breeder is talking about DNA testing, perhaps the puppies are a result of an accidental breeding and he is unsure of the parentage? The AKC will not register them if the parents are unknown.

American Kennel Club - DNA and the AKC

I hope you get some answers when you speak to the breeder.


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## newmalt (Dec 26, 2010)

Thank you all for your input.

I thought I have done my research but it's obvious it was not enough. I have PM 2 of the members that bought their babies from this vendor. I will wait for their responses. 

In the end, all I want is an assurance that this puppy is healthy. I have to believe that this breeder is not out to scam people. I would like to believe that someone in this forum would have outed him by now. 

Having said that, I would not want to make another misstep. I have not signed any contract yet. The breeder will send it to me next year. Any suggestions on what a contract should contain to ensure the puppy is healthy? 

Thank you,
Irene


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

It's sad but it can become quite 'political' when someone tries to share a not so good experience with a breeder. And it's understandable because someone could come here just to cause problems with a breeder that they are upset with, when the breeder themselves are very ethical. I hope people will PM those who have a puppy from a breeder they are thinking about going to.

I will say that I've seen some wonderful people here think very highly of certain breeders because they may not know the whole truth. I have said in the past and will continue to say this. When looking for a breeder, if this breeder is able to make a living at breeding and showing Maltese, then they run a very real risk of becoming nothing more then a high class puppy mill. Always go to the breeders house, or have a trusted friend go for you, to see where they raise their puppies and where all the dogs are kept. Find out how many breeding dogs they have and how many litters do they have in a year. Also something that is important to me is when they retire their breeding dogs and how they socialize their puppies to prepare them for their new home. It may not be as important to others so each person has to decide for themselves what constitutes an ethical breeder. There are some very popular breeders with this forum that seem to have a litter almost if not every month. 

Just want to add this disclaimer...I have no idea who the breeder is you are dealing with so I'm not trying 'out' anyone. Just something for anyone looking at getting a Maltese puppy to consider imo. :thumbsup:


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

newmalt said:


> . I would like to believe that someone in this forum would have outed him by now.
> 
> Unfortunately, this isn't always the case. My advice to you is to PM EACH AND EVERY PERSON you can find on this forum and ask for their personal experience. Sadly, too many people are hesitant to speak up about their negative experiences with breeders. My own personal opinion to you is to do some more homework. There appears to be some red flags. I wish you the best of luck!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> It's sad but it can become quite 'political' when someone tries to share a not so good experience with a breeder. And it's understandable because someone could come here just to cause problems with a breeder that they are upset with, when the breeder themselves are very ethical. I hope people will PM those who have a puppy from a breeder they are thinking about going to.
> 
> I will say that I've seen some wonderful people here think very highly of certain breeders because they may not know the whole truth. I have said in the past and will continue to say this. When looking for a breeder, if this breeder is able to make a living at breeding and showing Maltese, then they run a very real risk of becoming nothing more then a high class puppy mill. Always go to the breeders house, or have a trusted friend go for you, to see where they raise their puppies and where all the dogs are kept. Find out how many breeding dogs they have and how many litters do they have in a year. Also something that is important to me is when they retire their breeding dogs and how they socialize their puppies to prepare them for their new home. It may not be as important to others so each person has to decide for themselves what constitutes an ethical breeder. There are some very popular breeders with this forum that seem to have a litter almost if not every month.
> 
> Just want to add this disclaimer...I have no idea who the breeder is you are dealing with so I'm not trying 'out' anyone. Just something for anyone looking at getting a Maltese puppy to consider imo. :thumbsup:


:thumbsup: Excellent post!


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> It's sad but it can become quite 'political' when someone tries to share a not so good experience with a breeder. And it's understandable because someone could come here just to cause problems with a breeder that they are upset with, when the breeder themselves are very ethical. I hope people will PM those who have a puppy from a breeder they are thinking about going to.
> 
> I will say that I've seen some wonderful people here think very highly of certain breeders because they may not know the whole truth. I have said in the past and will continue to say this. When looking for a breeder, if this breeder is able to make a living at breeding and showing Maltese, then they run a very real risk of becoming nothing more then a high class puppy mill. Always go to the breeders house, or have a trusted friend go for you, to see where they raise their puppies and where all the dogs are kept. Find out how many breeding dogs they have and how many litters do they have in a year. Also something that is important to me is when they retire their breeding dogs and how they socialize their puppies to prepare them for their new home. It may not be as important to others so each person has to decide for themselves what constitutes an ethical breeder. There are some very popular breeders with this forum that seem to have a litter almost if not every month.
> 
> Just want to add this disclaimer...I have no idea who the breeder is you are dealing with so I'm not trying 'out' anyone. Just something for anyone looking at getting a Maltese puppy to consider imo. :thumbsup:


:aktion033::aktion033::goodpost: Well said Crystal!!! :thumbsup:


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## maltlovereileen (Jan 19, 2009)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> It's sad but it can become quite 'political' when someone tries to share a not so good experience with a breeder. And it's understandable because someone could come here just to cause problems with a breeder that they are upset with, when the breeder themselves are very ethical. I hope people will PM those who have a puppy from a breeder they are thinking about going to.
> 
> I will say that I've seen some wonderful people here think very highly of certain breeders because they may not know the whole truth. I have said in the past and will continue to say this. *When looking for a breeder, if this breeder is able to make a living at breeding and showing Maltese, then they run a very real risk of becoming nothing more then a high class puppy mill. Always go to the breeders house, or have a trusted friend go for you, to see where they raise their puppies and where all the dogs are kept. Find out how many breeding dogs they have and how many litters do they have in a year. Also something that is important to me is when they retire their breeding dogs and how they socialize their puppies to prepare them for their new home.* It may not be as important to others so each person has to decide for themselves what constitutes an ethical breeder. *There are some very popular breeders with this forum that seem to have a litter almost if not every month*.
> 
> Just want to add this disclaimer...I have no idea who the breeder is you are dealing with so I'm not trying 'out' anyone. Just something for anyone looking at getting a Maltese puppy to consider imo. :thumbsup:





Ladysmom said:


> :thumbsup: Excellent post!


I agree... well said. :thumbsup:


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

:aktion033:


Crystal&Zoe said:


> It's sad but it can become quite 'political' when someone tries to share a not so good experience with a breeder. And it's understandable because someone could come here just to cause problems with a breeder that they are upset with, when the breeder themselves are very ethical. I hope people will PM those who have a puppy from a breeder they are thinking about going to.
> 
> I will say that I've seen some wonderful people here think very highly of certain breeders because they may not know the whole truth. I have said in the past and will continue to say this. When looking for a breeder, if this breeder is able to make a living at breeding and showing Maltese, then they run a very real risk of becoming nothing more then a high class puppy mill. Always go to the breeders house, or have a trusted friend go for you, to see where they raise their puppies and where all the dogs are kept. Find out how many breeding dogs they have and how many litters do they have in a year. Also something that is important to me is when they retire their breeding dogs and how they socialize their puppies to prepare them for their new home. It may not be as important to others so each person has to decide for themselves what constitutes an ethical breeder. There are some very popular breeders with this forum that seem to have a litter almost if not every month.
> 
> Just want to add this disclaimer...I have no idea who the breeder is you are dealing with so I'm not trying 'out' anyone. Just something for anyone looking at getting a Maltese puppy to consider imo. :thumbsup:


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> It's sad but it can become quite 'political' when someone tries to share a not so good experience with a breeder. And it's understandable because someone could come here just to cause problems with a breeder that they are upset with, when the breeder themselves are very ethical. I hope people will PM those who have a puppy from a breeder they are thinking about going to.
> 
> I will say that I've seen some wonderful people here think very highly of certain breeders because they may not know the whole truth. I have said in the past and will continue to say this. When looking for a breeder, if this breeder is able to make a living at breeding and showing Maltese, then they run a very real risk of becoming nothing more then a high class puppy mill. Always go to the breeders house, or have a trusted friend go for you, to see where they raise their puppies and where all the dogs are kept. Find out how many breeding dogs they have and how many litters do they have in a year. Also something that is important to me is when they retire their breeding dogs and how they socialize their puppies to prepare them for their new home. It may not be as important to others so each person has to decide for themselves what constitutes an ethical breeder. There are some very popular breeders with this forum that seem to have a litter almost if not every month.
> 
> Just want to add this disclaimer...I have no idea who the breeder is you are dealing with so I'm not trying 'out' anyone. Just something for anyone looking at getting a Maltese puppy to consider imo. :thumbsup:


 


Very well said Crystal. :aktion033::aktion033:


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

newmalt said:


> I called my vet and was told that while they don't do spaying until 6 months old, some breeders may want to spay at 12 weeks and that is okay.
> 
> I put a hold on the down payment which was made via credit card, until I get confirmation from the breeder that I will get limited AKC registration.
> 
> ...


Irene,
Twelve weeks is really young to spay. I don't understand the registration matters that he mentions.

When a litter is registered the whole litter is registered. Right now AKC is offering a $20.00 flat rate. When the litter is registered the breeder enters how many puppies are in the litter. An individual registration paper is printed for each puppy. For Maltese it would be an example is TP700600. The individual papers will have an /01, /02, however many puppies there are. All the puppies are eligible equally in the litter.
Most breeders sell puppies to pet homes on a limited registration, meaning that breeding privileges are not being given. They cannot be in conformation but can participate in all other AKC activities. 

Like Mary said it sounds like they don't want to register a litter so that he doesn't go over the automatic 7 litters to trigger an AKC inspection. DNA testing for AKC is $35.00 prepaid or $40.00. With AKC they only require that the sire's who have 3 or more litters in a calendar year or more than 7 litters in his life time have to be DNA'd. Otherwise DNA is voluntary. Not very many people DNA all their dogs. So, maybe he is trying not to have to DNA his sire. 
To me there isn't an option on AKC registration papers. Prospective buyers get either a limited registration or full registration if they really are going to show. I also give a 5 generation pedigree, health record and spay/neuter options. If there isn't a record of your puppy in the AKC data base you cannot get a pedigree or try to do a back ground check. 
Puppy sales are really down right now, so if you are not satisfied with the answers you are getting look at other breeders. This breeder is not "saving" you money on not registering the puppy. AKC cost for that is $20.00. for you to indivdually register your puppy. They may be saving you money on the spay, but it is really young. The hormones are removed and the puppy will get longer and taller because what tells them to stop growing is removed. 

Talk to folks. If the breeder refuses to sell you the puppy because of your questions............
JMO


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

Tina said:


> Irene,
> Twelve weeks is really young to spay. I don't understand the registration matters that he mentions.
> 
> They may be saving you money on the spay, but it is really young. The hormones are removed and the puppy will get longer and taller because what tells them to stop growing is removed.
> ...


 
wow....these statements would make me want to spay my own dog when she is 6 months old. I know this must be all so overwhelming...but I'm sure it's just info to help YOU. Think about it....I don't know what to tell you to do, but red flags of any kind are there for you to think about. It's so hard to know what to do....


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

newmalt said:


> I called my vet and was told that while they don't do spaying until 6 months old, some breeders may want to spay at 12 weeks and that is okay.
> 
> I put a hold on the down payment which was made via credit card, until I get confirmation from the breeder that I will get limited AKC registration.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying this is what happened, but if the dam (mother) was accidentally bred to two different males it could be that is why he wanted to avoid the expense of DNA testing, etc. 
That's the only reason I can think of for wanting to eliminate AKC registration.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Tina said:


> Irene,
> Twelve weeks is really young to spay.
> 
> Puppy sales are really down right now, so if you are not satisfied with the answers you are getting look at other breeders. This breeder is not "saving" you money on not registering the puppy. AKC cost for that is $20.00. for you to indivdually register your puppy. They may be saving you money on the spay, but it is really young. The hormones are removed and the puppy will get longer and taller because what tells them to stop growing is removed.


Good advice, Tina. Veterinary schools are going to have to get a lot more research published before they will ever convince me that spaying a 12-week, 2 lb. puppy is a wise thing to do.



Cosy said:


> I'm not saying this is what happened, but if the dam (mother) was accidentally bred to two different males it could be that is why he wanted to avoid the expense of DNA testing, etc.
> That's the only reason I can think of for wanting to eliminate AKC registration.


But, Brit, the AKC isn't charging anywhere near $500 to determine parentage in a multiple sire situation.

I think the bottom line is that there are a number of red flags here and a bit more homework might be beneficial.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

MaryH said:


> But, Brit, the AKC isn't charging anywhere near $500 to determine parentage in a multiple sire situation.
> 
> I think the bottom line is that there are a number of red flags here and a bit more homework might be beneficial.


I know, Mary, but you know how some breeders are. They don't want that out there. I agree it could be other things too, and I would do some more research before going there.


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## MalteseJane (Nov 21, 2004)

Tina said:


> Irene,
> Twelve weeks is really young to spay. I don't understand the registration matters that he mentions.
> 
> They may be saving you money on the spay, but it is really young. *The hormones are removed and the puppy will get longer and taller because what tells them to stop growing is removed. *
> ...


I would not buy a puppy that is spayed at 12 weeks. Period. No matter the breeder.


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## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

If I was in your situation. I would listen to Mary H and Tina!! Both are good women and very knowledgeable!!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

There are a couple of red flags here, but if I really wanted the dog, I'd try and work around those red flags. 

I would never agree to have my 12 week old puppy spayed. Why risk a major surgery at 12 weeks? I don't know what the experts may or may not say about it, but it seems dangerous and unnecessary to me. I don't know enough about hormonal issues etc., but if it were me, I'd do some research on it. 

I'm not judging anyone, but this is what it sounds like to me: The breeder is trying to figure out the best way to deal with a breeding accident, and they are afraid to let the puppy go to a buyer intact because of that accident. I personally don't place much importance on AKC registration for a pet, so I have no opinion on whether you should take a non-registered dog or not. It seems like the breeder is using AKC registration as an excuse to negotiate a deal. Seems less than honest to me. Why don't they just say why they really don't want the dog registered? Accidents happen. Nobody is perfect. 

If I wanted this puppy badly enough and the AKC registration wasn't a big selling point to me, I'd buy it unregistered with 2 caveats. 

1. I'd have the puppy thoroughly checked by a vet immediately. Bile acid test, bloodwork, etc. 

2. I would not allow the puppy to be spayed so young. I'd ask the breeder for a spay/neuter contract/agreement in writing, and notarized, if necessary.

Trust is a two-way street. If the breeder cannot trust that the buyer will abide by a spay/neuter contract/agreement, then that raises a red flag for me. 

Just my opinion.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

MaryH said:


> *No knowledgeable Maltese breeder will spay a Maltese puppy at 12 weeks of age.*


Mary, thank you, my heart thumped when I read the breeder would spay at 12 weeks


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Cosy said:


> I know, Mary, but you know how some breeders are. They don't want that out there. I agree it could be other things too, and I would do some more research before going there.


Good point, Brit. Mistakes DO happen and admitting to a mistake is not everyone's strong point. But if the mistake is something like a sister/brother or father/daughter breeding then I for one would admit to it, at least privately to the buyer. The other possibility is that the "discount" is nothing more than a sales tactic. Ugggghhh!!


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## Green444 (Jul 2, 2010)

I've had some communication with a well known breeder with multiple champions who said they did not register a litter when there is only one pup. I found out this person has more dogs than what people on here might think, so I assume this is one way to hide how many litters he does have. Would you mind telling us what part of the country (or even state) this person is in?
One thing I'm finding is that some of the more well known breeders are the ones who find excuses about showing the area where their dogs are kept. 
I'm still looking.........


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

allheart said:


> Mary, thank you, my heart thumped when I read the breeder would spay at 12 weeks


Sorry to the OP, I do wish you the best of luck in finding that special healthy Maltese. My comment above is/was my knee jerk reaction. For me, honestly, I would not wish at all, to have my pup spayed at such a young age, nor would I wish to purchase/adopt a pup, from a breeder that would spay that early, even if they changed their mind. That is not my comfort level at all. That's just me and how I would personally feel about the situation, even if 100 people were thrilled with their personal experience with this breeder. This is in no way, honestly, being negative about the breeder, but it is definetly not my personal comfort level. The papers are one thing, spaying at 12 weeks, just doesn't sit well with me at all, for me personally.

I do wish you the very best and honestly have no idea who the breeder is nor do I want to, I am just relaying how I would feel as a pet person, looking for a new puppy. I see no good reason at all to spay a puppy at that young age . It surely isn't in the best interest of the puppy. At least that's how I feel.

Please don't feel bad for asking these very good questions, as they are very important and it is very good that you are asking.

Again, wishing you the best.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

Tina said:


> = The hormones are removed and the puppy will get longer and taller because what tells them to stop growing is removed.


OMG....spaying causes the dog to grow longer and taller bc hormones are removed? goodness..what age do you recommend to spay? i am afraid of spaying Gemma too early now bc i dont want her growth to be affected adversely....


Irene- I would listen to *Tina and MaryH'*s advice. Please do more research and ask questions. Dont be shy about it. This is the crucial time. *Eileen* is also right- relationship with a breeder goes beyond the purchase. Having a good relationship will benefit you tremendously. Having a distrustful one will torment you. Avoid the latter if you can. I also second *Crystal's *post about well known breeders. Always buyers beware! Good luck!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The growing taller is such an insignificant amount that it would be negligible in a toy breed. However, there are plenty of other reasons why, unless it is a shelter/rescue situations, to wait until at least 6 months of age.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

godiva goddess said:


> OMG....spaying causes the dog to grow longer and taller bc hormones are removed? goodness..what age do you recommend to spay? i am afraid of spaying Gemma too early now bc i dont want her growth to be affected adversely....
> 
> 
> Irene- I would listen to *Tina and MaryH'*s advice. Please do more research and ask questions. Dont be shy about it. This is the crucial time. *Eileen* is also right- relationship with a breeder goes beyond the purchase. Having a good relationship will benefit you tremendously. Having a distrustful one will torment you. Avoid the latter if you can. I also second *Crystal's *post about well known breeders. Always buyers beware! Good luck!



Do keep in mind the health benefits from early spaying, though. If Gemma is spayed before six months, you will eliminate her chance of ever getting mammary cancer. If she has one heat cycle and then is spayed her risk rises to 8%. If she is spayed after her second heat, her cancer risk jumps to 25%.

I'd like to see studies supporting the premise that dogs who are spayed early grow larger. I believe it's theory, not established fact, isn't it?


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

jmm said:


> The growing taller is such an insignificant amount that it would be negligible in a toy breed. However, *there are plenty of other reasons why, unless it is a shelter/rescue situations, to wait until at least 6 months of age.*





Jackie that was always my understanding. Thank you for your input.


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## newmalt (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi,
I definitely did not mean to get folks angry, disgusted, upset or anything of that kind. 

It was so painful when I lost my first baby at 15 years old. It took me 4 years to even consider getting another baby. And what should be a happy event is turning into a very painful experience.

I will be logging off and not signing on for a while. The whole situation is making me so upset that I am crying at this point. 

-Irene


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## mysugarbears (Aug 13, 2007)

newmalt said:


> Hi,
> I definitely did not mean to get folks angry, disgusted, upset or anything of that kind.
> 
> It was so painful when I lost my first baby at 15 years old. It took me 4 years to even consider getting another baby. And what should be a happy event is turning into a very painful experience.
> ...


 

Irene you didn't make anyone angry, upset or anything. The members on this forum are upset about the situation that you were put in and about the decision you were going to have to make because of the breeder. You were doing your homework and i'm sorry that finding your new baby hasn't been a positive experience like it should be. You are doing the right thing asking questions and pm'ing members that own dogs from this breeder. 

I'm very sorry that you are so upset. :grouphug:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

newmalt said:


> Hi,
> I definitely did not mean to get folks angry, disgusted, upset or anything of that kind.
> 
> It was so painful when I lost my first baby at 15 years old. It took me 4 years to even consider getting another baby. And what should be a happy event is turning into a very painful experience.
> ...


No one is angry or upset with you, Irene. We are just so sorry that you are in such a difficult situation. I hope everything is resolved and you find that perfect puppy. :grouphug:


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

Here are some web sites on the subject. I worked on a reseach center years ago. It was an eye opener with what and how researchers can manipulate genes to breed what they wanted. Example is a lean bacon. They produced a hog that produced that. They also produced a really really fat hog. Continued research is always needed. Toy dogs do reach maturity faster than larger breeds. It should still be taken into consideration.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

New Views on Neutering


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## 08chrissy08 (Sep 19, 2008)

I'm so very sorry you are dealing with this Irene. You must be so confused and upset. Please know that not one person here is in any way upset with you. I know how worried and unhappy you must feel right now. You're in my thoughts and I hope the best for you no matter what the outcome is.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

newmalt said:


> Hi,
> I definitely did not mean to get folks angry, disgusted, upset or anything of that kind.
> 
> It was so painful when I lost my first baby at 15 years old. It took me 4 years to even consider getting another baby. And what should be a happy event is turning into a very painful experience.
> ...


Oh no, Irene, no, we were feeling for you. It was the situation. Oh Irene, so many of us have furbabies at the bridge. We feel and know your pain.
We are here for you, to listen, those who have vast knowledge are so loving and giving of it, and all of us care so much.

Irene, hugs. When I first came on SM I didn't know alot!!!! But I have learned so much and have helped so much. So many times, I was so confused, I didn't understand, but the kind members really helped me.

Hugs to you and hope to see you back soon.


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## lori (Jul 8, 2008)

Irene, I am so very sorry that you feel this way. We are not disgusted, angry or upset with you!! Searching for your perfect baby should be a happy time and not turn into an unpleasant experience. Everybody on this forum means well and we are very passionate about our babies and want to help the best way we can by sharing our knowledge. :grouphug: I wish you all the best in finding your perfect baby!!!


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