# Urinary or Kidney stones?



## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

So I am slowly coming to the conclusion that Kitzel has crystals in his urine. Today there were some concentrated drops of urine near Lisi's pad that I believe were Kitzi's (we were out & came home to this). They were a funny color & on the plastic part that goes under the pad so I could wipe them up w/a paper towel. I brushed my finger on this & it was like salt. I have been trying to get a sample from him for a few days----never enough to take to the vet before having to start over as it needs to be fresh. My ? is---are they bladder crystals? I have never in all of my ancient days had a dog w/crystals. Since he was passing blood recently due to the anesthesia at the dental I am concerned that they may be kidney? I am not very educated about stones so if anyone is & knows how to help please jump in here. I will put in a call to the vet tonight & she will call back tomorrow morning.


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

I am not educated on stones either. But I will say that if you take Kitzel in they can get some urine. They have from Riley before.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Trevor had a history of crystals in the urine and once had a surgery for bladder stones. He basically was put on a special diet, which minimized the crystals. The bladder stones were detected in an ultrasound. I never collected the urine sample on my own-they'd do it at the hospital. That may be easier for you! There really weren't symptoms-he appeared fine.


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

One of our former Dogs, Muffy a Cockapoo had several episodes with crystals as well as stones and had at least two or three surgeries for the stones. However, this continued to the point that we did not want her to go through more surgeries after finding blood all over our Kitchen floor and the decision (a very,very hard one,) was to finally let her go and not let her suffer anymore and put her through any more surgeries since she was a Sr. Dog at that point. I am sure Sandi that with proper diagnosis that Kitizi will be fine and that your Vet will most likely put him on an antibiotic as well as a special diet if that will be the course that he/she suggests to follow.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

I've had a Maltese with bladder stones that I didn't know about until he started having blood in his urine. He had a collection of stones that was about the size of a walnut! I think it was an xray that showed the stones and they originally thought it was just one big stone. He had surgery. I now have another dog that has had crystals but so far no stones. 

My understanding is that you really need a urinalysis of a fresh sample to know if there are crystals and, if so, what type. In fact, one type of crystals can form if clear, crystal-free urine is refrigerated but not tested right away. My vets get samples by ultrasound-guided cystocentesis, i.e. by needle. 

I don't have any experience, dog or human, with kidney stones (that I can remember) ...

I'd suggest making sure your dog gets plenty water with or in food until you can get to the vets to have him tested.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

I am sorry, I did have a larger dog with bladder stones; we never knew until he had issues peeing. His was causing a urinary blockage and so he had surgery. Good luck.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Kitzel doesn't seem to have as much urine as I would expect---another reason to wonder if it might be restricted due to a stone. Some of you will remember that I posted not so long about about excessive licking of the penis area as well (not a normal occurrence for him), and sometimes waking me in the night---so even more suspicious. I will call the vet so we can get in tomorrow. Thank you all.


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

Pipper had bladder stones. From what I've been told is that if the urine sits in the bladder for too long then crystals can form. These crystals can then form together in clumps and then it turns into a stone. Poor Pipper had 13 stones :w00t: The only symptom he had was blood in the urine. I know when he gets his urine checked twice a year they always check for crystals. I make sure I take him outside lots to let him pee, I don't even wait for him to ask. And he gets tons of water. He is on Urinary SO wet food and I water it down so that it's like soup.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

pippersmom said:


> Pipper had bladder stones. From what I've been told is that if the urine sits in the bladder for too long then crystals can form. These crystals can then form together in clumps and then it turns into a stone. Poor Pipper had 13 stones :w00t: The only symptom he had was blood in the urine. I know when he gets his urine checked twice a year they always check for crystals. I make sure I take him outside lots to let him pee, I don't even wait for him to ask. And he gets tons of water. He is on Urinary SO wet food and I water it down so that it's like soup.


Kathy, what is Urinary SO wet food? Does it come from the vet?


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

SO is a Royal Canin product. My current dog eats the kibble plus I soak it in water. I don't think it dissolves stones of the type my dog might form (calcium oxalate is the type of crystals he has) but my vet says it may help prevent their formation. It makes the pet extra thirsty so that, with increased water intake, crystals get flushed out.

I get it from my vets, but I just did a search and it may be available from amazon .com, too. https://www.amazon.com/Royal-Canin-...692481&sr=8-3&keywords=royal+canin+urinary+so


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

edelweiss said:


> Kathy, what is Urinary SO wet food? Does it come from the vet?


Yes Sandi, it's a RX food from the vet. It's Royal Canin Urinary SO. I was told to use the canned food and not the kibble because the canned is getting more water into them. It's supposed to help prevent more crystals or stones from forming. Pipper's stones were calcium oxalate and they couldn't be dissolved, they had to be removed surgically but the food can dissolve certain types of crystals.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Linked to the canned: https://www.amazon.com/Royal-Canine...rd_wg=RBQ9c&psc=1&refRID=QPTXB3NH5QCQFMTJFJFX


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

mss said:


> SO is a Royal Canin product. My current dog eats the kibble plus I soak it in water. I don't think it dissolves stones of the type my dog might form (calcium oxalate is the type of crystals he has) but my vet says it may help prevent their formation. It makes the pet extra thirsty so that, with increased water intake, crystals get flushed out.
> 
> I get it from my vets, but I just did a search and it may be available from amazon .com, too. https://www.amazon.com/Royal-Canin-...692481&sr=8-3&keywords=royal+canin+urinary+so


Thank you so much! I called the vet & left a msg. so hopeful we can see her tomorrow. How do they determine what particular kind of stones a pup has?


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

The urinalysis will tell them, hopefully. Different kinds look different under the microscope, I understand. Sometimes, though, stones are made up of more than one kind of crystal.


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm no help here, Sandi. Hoping you can figure out what's going on but it sounds like it might well be crystals. Good luck and keep up posted.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

mss said:


> The urinalysis will tell them, hopefully. Different kinds look different under the microscope, I understand. Sometimes, though, stones are made up of more than one kind of crystal.


Oh ugh! TBC


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Sue, I would be happier w/crystals than a kidney issue from the anesthesia!


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

Sweetness has a history of crystals, both struvite and oxalate. The vet wanted to put her on SO but I refuse to give that much corn and brewer's yeast to my dog. I've changed her diet to remove all high oxalate foods, increase water, and use a moderate protein dehydrated raw. I also give her animal essentials tinkle tonic for one week every month to promote urinary health. No crystals in the three years we've been following that routine.


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

Just remembered that the Rx food that was prescribed was from Hills Bros. for our late Muffy who had those horrible kidney stones.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

We had a rough night---I have a 3:00 appt. at the vet. Our vet is out until Wed (the one who treated both for peeing blood & put them on antibiotics), so we will see another vet at same practice. I spoke w/the owner of the practice today & she said that Kitzi is obviously in pain. Prayers for direction! TIA


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

Hoping that you get some answers today and it's an easy fix.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

Sandi,

I am sorry. I know it will be hard to wait until 3. Hope everyhing turns out OK.


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

Snding positive thoughts your way Sandi and hope that the Vet that you will be seeeing with Kitzi will be able to help him with what he has been going through.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

UPDATE:
We spent over an hour w/the vet today---CBC, Chem panel, 2 X exrays, urinalysis w/sedimentation & general diagnostics. We came home w/14 more days of clavimox & some SO canned food (I only got 2 cans for now). He does have struvite crystals & she recommended after we do this round of clavimox that we may want to do an ultrasound. She would like him on the food for a month initially & maybe forever----I told her I am not comfortable w/that & she did not push---just "ok, lets wait & see how he responds to this first." 
She isn't sure if the UTI is because of what happened w/the botched dental or if it was already there & just made things worse w/the dental.
He did eat the food & now I will start the liquid clavimox. His private parts are very red on one side which she thinks may be from passing the crystals. 
I plan to order Tinkle Tonic tonight & start him on that---I left his in Austria. 
He was a good sport about everything but the last time they tried to take him from me for the last test he growled at the vet tech. That's my boy!


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

edelweiss said:


> UPDATE:
> We spent over an hour w/the vet today---CBC, Chem panel, 2 X exrays, urinalysis w/sedimentation & general diagnostics. We came home w/14 more days of clavimox & some SO canned food (I only got 2 cans for now). He does have struvite crystals & she recommended after we do this round of clavimox that we may want to do an ultrasound. She would like him on the food for a month initially & maybe forever----I told her I am not comfortable w/that & she did not push---just "ok, lets wait & see how he responds to this first."
> She isn't sure if the UTI is because of what happened w/the botched dental or if it was already there & just made things worse w/the dental.
> He did eat the food & now I will start the liquid clavimox. His private parts are very red on one side which she thinks may be from passing the crystals.
> ...


Glad you got some answers. I think struvite crystals have a better chance of being dissolved than if they were calcium oxalate. Did she have you add extra water to his food? I make Pipper's food into the consistency of a soup because that's the only way to ensure that he is drinking lots of water. They told me Pipper has to be on the food forever and I'm not happy about it either but if it prevents more stones I guess I have to go with the lesser of the two evils.


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## Kathleen (Aug 4, 2011)

I hope that Kitzi is feeling better soon.
Daisy was recently diagnosed with crystals too (but calcium oxalate and no uti) so I have been doing some reading trying to figure out what to do next. Whole Dog Journal has a good article, if you are interested. Canine Kidney Stone and Bladder Stone Prevention | Whole Dog Journal
I hope that the medicine helps him to feel better - poor little guy!


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

I'm glad your vet has a plan! And I agree with Kathy that I've also heard that struvite crystals and (small) stones are the easiest to overcome.  Vibes that your little one does well. :grouphug:

I think I've seen the Whole Dog Journal article before, and found it very interesting and helpful to understand some things. On the other hand, it was originally written in 2010 and I don't know the author's expertise. So I'll give my usual recommendation to find a vet that you trust to treat your dog! (I've had to leave several over the years in order to do that.)

Edited to add: I apologize re the article - I think what I had read was one about calcium oxalate stones, so I shouldn't criticize this one.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

I hope the food resolves the situation.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Kathleen said:


> I hope that Kitzi is feeling better soon.
> Daisy was recently diagnosed with crystals too (but calcium oxalate and no uti) so I have been doing some reading trying to figure out what to do next. Whole Dog Journal has a good article, if you are interested. Canine Kidney Stone and Bladder Stone Prevention | Whole Dog Journal
> I hope that the medicine helps him to feel better - poor little guy!


Excellent article Kathleen & I feel better about refusing this special diet for more than a couple of wks. I am going to print off a copy of this article for the vet!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I am ordering Tinkle Tonic, Liver Defense & a new probiotic for K & Lisi. I sure hope this will help. I liked the article Kathleen recommended that said they don't need a special diet long term. Why did this vet not know that? I copied this article to take to her. Educate, educate, educate!


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

What are the author's credentials? 

The Merck Veterinary Manual suggests a special diet may be appropriate: 



> Prevention Protocol:
> The key to prevention of recurrence in animals with a struvite stone associated with infection is to achieve and maintain sterile urine. Routine testing of urine pH by the owner is important. If fresh urine is alkaline, a urinalysis and culture should be done, with the dog treated appropriately if an infection is present.
> 
> Once stone dissolution is completed, a prevention program can be considered. The aim is to prevent urinary tract infections with urease-producing microbes. The concentration of major struvite solutes in urine should also be reduced. *A commercially available diet may be fed to lower urinary phosphate and magnesium and to maintain an acidic urine*. Urease-producing infections should be eliminated, after which owners should regularly check the pH of the first voided urine in the morning after an overnight fast; in most dogs on a normal diet, the urine will be acidic. Checking urine pH weekly is sufficient.


Urolithiasis in Small Animals: Noninfectious Diseases of the Urinary System in Small Animals: Merck Veterinary Manual


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Late to the party here. Glad that you got him to the vet and hoping the food helps.


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## kd1212 (Nov 5, 2013)

Sandi, my vet did a lot of research and consulted with other vets and they found the formula in OM was better for the crystals. Royal canine had it as prescription, but I think they discontinued it. He didn't like the prescription Science diet OM, so the vet examine n d ingredients in some OM nonprescription, which I got him to eat. The crystals went away, but we kept him on the OM to keeps the levels stabilized. The crystals were not an issue after that.


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## summergirl1973 (Oct 24, 2016)

So glad you got some answers from your Vet. You probably already do this, but I think I've read multiple places that distilled water (not just purified) can be really helpful. Something to research I guess. Keep us posted and kisses to the babies!


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## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

edelweiss said:


> I am ordering Tinkle Tonic, Liver Defense & a new probiotic for K & Lisi. I sure hope this will help. I liked the article Kathleen recommended that said they don't need a special diet long term. Why did this vet not know that? I copied this article to take to her. Educate, educate, educate!


Vets in the U.S. rush to sell prescription food because they make money off of it and those companies sponsor much of their education. They are "taught" in vet school that the prescription foods are best.

For some dogs, maybe, but putting that much corn into a small fluff for a long period of time would be my absolutely last resort.


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

When Pipper had his stones we were told by our local vet, and the vets at the University Hospital where he had his surgery and the nutritionist we took him to after the surgery that he had to be on this crappy food forever. I'm *not* *happy* about it at all and I always question if I'm doing the right thing for him but they keep telling me I am. Every year at his yearly checkup I bring up the subject of food. They said that this food is proven to help prevent more stones and that a homecooked diet doesn't have documented proof that it works especially in calcium oxalate stones which have such a high recurrence rate. It so hard to know if I'm doing the right thing for him. I guess if it's this food vs getting more stones, the food is the lesser of the two evils????


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

In the end, it's always the owner's choice. 
With struvite crystals or stones, I suppose you could always experiment with just giving them a lot more water with their regular food. With the calcium oxalate stones, like my Spunky had surgery for, I'm not taking a chance of my current dog having to go through the surgery at his advanced age and with a heart murmur.  He's on the Royal Canin kibble, and is free of crystals now and his digestion is good.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Kitzel has struvite not calcium oxalate crystals, so I am thinking that the diet isn't as important for us as it is for those of you w/the calcium oxalate issue. I do think reducing magnesium & ?? phosphorus is important (am I making this up?) for a limited time. Last night I ordered another bottle of Tinkle Tonic, some chewable probiotics & a liver stabilizer (his liver enzymes were up). I will finish the antibiotic & do the diet until it is finished then reconsider my options. I will also start the products listed above. I have used tinkle tonic before but will be more consequent now that I know what I am looking for. I think he had symptoms that I did not recognize even before the botched dental. The dental put him over the top, along w/the stress & probably some exposure to infection at the dental office or as a result of the cleaning. 
Mench, I need to get a doctorate in vet medicine if we keep this up!


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## pippersmom (May 21, 2012)

I just thought of something else. Pipper is on Cosequin DS for his knees and a few years ago someone on here ( can't remember who) told me that it's been proven that cosequin helps maintain a healthy bladder in cats but no studies had yet been done on dogs. But hey, if he is on it anyways for his knees then maybe it will help with the bladder too. :thumbsup:


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

For struvite stones/crystal prevention, the Merck Manual suggests a diet low in magnesium and phosphorus and watching the pH of the urine. The Whole Dog Journal has other recommendations depending on whether the struvite stones/crystals are due to an infection or if they are "sterile struvite". 

I don't know a thing about the supplements etc. that you mention, but I hope your little one does well! Please keep us posted! :grouphug:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Kitzi definitely has an infection but the first vet mentioned something about "sterile" when we took them in & they were peeing blood. This vet (a partner in the clinic) said he has an infection & that he may need more antibiotic than he is getting, & only if we are still infected when he finishes this one will they do a culture & then start another antibiotic. 
I don't know that he is better (it is 24 + hrs. so he should be) as he is still biting his feet which he has never done before this. The vet did call today to check on him but I was out & did not return her call before she left for the day. 
Should the ph of the urine be high or low to know that they are ok?
Thank you for your help!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

UTI-Free - Homeopathic Remedy for UTI Dogs, UTI Cats - PetAlive

UTI Free---
This is a homeopathic product that I will try on Lisi. Her urine smells strongly of ammonia, although she is no longer having urgency nor do I see blood. It will take a while I think for it to work, but I will compare how she does on this w/the Tinkle Tonic for Kitzi.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> Kitzi definitely has an infection but the first vet mentioned something about "sterile" when we took them in & they were peeing blood. This vet (a partner in the clinic) said he has an infection & that he may need more antibiotic than he is getting, & only if we are still infected when he finishes this one will they do a culture & then start another antibiotic.
> I don't know that he is better (it is 24 + hrs. so he should be) as he is still biting his feet which he has never done before this. The vet did call today to check on him but I was out & did not return her call before she left for the day.
> Should the ph of the urine be high or low to know that they are ok?
> Thank you for your help!


As to "sterile," the vet may have been using the word in another context, as in getting "a sterile sample of urine", meaning by needle instead of having Kitzi pee in a cup. 

As to the pH, what I read, combining the info in the Merck Manual and the Whole Dog Journal article, is that normal urine is neutral to acidic, and that struvite crystals are discouraged by urine that is more acidic. And that urinary tract infections cause the urine to be more alkaline, so that is part of why the struvite crystals grow. At least I think that's all I can figure out about that!


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

Checking in on Kitzel, hoping he is better this morning. I do wonder about Leisl's ammonia smell. Riley's urine was very strong smelling when I found out he had MVD. Have you done a BAT on her? Just a thought.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Lisi has moderate MVD & yes we did BAT (x 2 actually). I did leave a msg. w/the vet today about getting more clavimox for Lisi & putting her on the food for 2 wks. I am waiting for a call-back but my phone went dead so will go later to pick up meds & food. Thanks for thinking w/me here, Sherry.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

mss said:


> As to "sterile," the vet may have been using the word in another context, as in getting "a sterile sample of urine", meaning by needle instead of having Kitzi pee in a cup.
> 
> As to the pH, what I read, combining the info in the Merck Manual and the Whole Dog Journal article, is that normal urine is neutral to acidic, and that struvite crystals are discouraged by urine that is more acidic. And that urinary tract infections cause the urine to be more alkaline, so that is part of why the struvite crystals grow. At least I think that's all I can figure out about that!


That is what I understood about PH as well.
No, it did not have to do w/a sterile sample---it had something to do w/wondering if they had bleeding w/out an infection, but that has been disproven now. Both had/have infections---but it is probably from whatever happened on the day of the dental. The homeopathic meds I have ordered will help to acidify the urine. Originally the vet wanted them to drink cranberry juice but this is a better bet for me/easier to get down them!
:thumbsup:


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

Not to worry you, but I would be concerned with a strong ammonia smell. The digestive tract breaks down certain proteins (mostly from meat) into ammonia, this is then filtered through the liver to create urea. Ammonia is harmful to organs, urea is benign. If there is a strong ammonia smell, I would worry that the liver is not processing the ammonia. BTW, with Lucks hepatic diet I never sense an ammonia smell in his urine. Again not to worry you, just something to discuss with the vet.

I am sorry, it seems like they both are having a rough time.


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

I am just now seeing this..I am so sorry for what you have been going through with Kitzi and Lisi. You are a great mom. I hope they are feeling better soon. ((hugs))


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

wkomorow said:


> Not to worry you, but I would be concerned with a strong ammonia smell. The digestive tract breaks down certain proteins (mostly from meat) into ammonia, this is then filtered through the liver to create urea. Ammonia is harmful to organs, urea is benign. If there is a strong ammonia smell, I would worry that the liver is not processing the ammonia. BTW, with Lucks hepatic diet I never sense an ammonia smell in his urine. Again not to worry you, just something to discuss with the vet.
> 
> I am slow protien meals.Lactulose on every meal and orry, it seems like they both are having a rough time.


AS Walter said, the ammonia smell is so important in sensing liver function. I would highly suggest the use of lactulose and Denamarin.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

But could the bladder infection be causing the ammonia-like odor? The Whole Dog Journal linked previously says:



> Struvite stones usually form when large amounts of crystals are present in combination with a urinary tract infection from urease-producing bacteria such as Staphylococcus or Proteus. Urease is an enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis of urea, *forming ammonia* and carbon dioxide. It contributes to struvite stone formation as well as alkaline (high-pH) urine.


http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...Urinary-Stones-Dogs_16215-1.html?s=ShareASale


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

mss said:


> But could the bladder infection be causing the ammonia-like odor? The Whole Dog Journal linked previously says:
> 
> 
> 
> Canine Kidney Stone and Bladder Stone Prevention | Whole Dog Journal


Yes, I think this is what is happening.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

So after speaking yesterday w/the vet we started Lisi on the food & another round of clavimox. Today Kitzi & Lisi are playing (already about an hour) together like they have not played in years! I think they are both doing so much better today. I am surprised, thrilled, & hopeful that we are on a new road. I just can't see how I missed the symptoms for so long! Had it not been for the botched dental I don't think I would even know now. While I am still "ticked" at the vet who did the damage, I am realizing once again that good things can come out of bad situations.


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## wkomorow (Aug 26, 2011)

I am so glad they are doing better.


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## Snuggle's Mom (Jan 3, 2008)

So happy to hear that both Kitzi and Lisi are finally back to playing with oneanother again!!! Certainly something to be thankful for on Thanksgiving!!!


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## sherry (Jan 4, 2013)

I am so happy to hear they are feeling better. Happy Thanksgiving!


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## Snowbody (Jan 3, 2009)

Good news, Sandi. Yes very strange that you wouldn't have picked up on it. Some silver lining for sure.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

It's great to hear they are doing so much better!  Vibes that they continue on that path! :grouphug:


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## summergirl1973 (Oct 24, 2016)

edelweiss said:


> I just can't see how I missed the symptoms for so long! Had it not been for the botched dental I don't think I would even know now. While I am still "ticked" at the vet who did the damage, I am realizing once again that good things can come out of bad situations.


Sometimes symptoms just aren't obvious enough for us to even know there is a problem (as I know all too well). We are at the end of the day, we are only human and we do the very best we can. You are an awesome Mommy and those pups are very fortunate for that! Big hugs and a happy dance for the healing!:chili:


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## aprilb (Jul 9, 2010)

So happy to hear they are better!!:wub:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

Sandi, I just saw and read this whole thread last night. So sorry that I missed it earlier. However, with reading the last posts first (after reading your initial posting) ... I am so happy to read that Kitzi and Lisi are doing so much better. The fact that they are playing together is wonderful.

As for the dentist who went on holiday the next day after the dentals ... 
If it were me, I would insist on a detailed report on the dental cleanings. What kind of anesthesia and what kind of other meds were used? What happened during the whole dental procedure? How long were Kitzi and Lisi under anesthesia? What was the post dental care while recovering in the dental office? So many questions and answers that should be in the reports. Any reputable doctor/dentist will provide that information upon request. And, actually, pre and post-op instuctions should be given to the patient's family/ guardians before hand and after the procedure. I would want to know ... because it sounds as though Kitzi and Lisi might have become seriously sick from something that happened during the dentals ... and, that might have caused some underlying health issues. 

I hope both sweetie pie's continue to be well. Hugs and love to all of you.:wub:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Snowball Pie's Mommi said:


> Sandi, I just saw and read this whole thread last night. So sorry that I missed it earlier. However, with reading the last posts first (after reading your initial posting) ... I am so happy to read that Kitzi and Lisi are doing so much better. The fact that they are playing together is wonderful.
> 
> As for the dentist who went on holiday the next day after the dentals ...
> If it were me, I would insist on a detailed report on the dental cleanings. What kind of anesthesia and what kind of other meds were used? What happened during the whole dental procedure? How long were Kitzi and Lisi under anesthesia? What was the post dental care while recovering in the dental office? So many questions and answers that should be in the reports. Any reputable doctor/dentist will provide that information upon request. And, actually, pre and post-op instuctions should be given to the patient's family/ guardians before hand and after the procedure. I would want to know ... because it sounds as though Kitzi and Lisi might have become seriously sick from something that happened during the dentals ... and, that might have caused some underlying health issues.
> ...


Marie dearest, thank you for the good advice. In all honesty I have been too busy & too "ticked" to check back w/the vet. They don't ever answer the phone & there is no way to leave a msg. so I have to go there in person (he is semi-retired). It is out of the way of where I would normally go too---and the house has been a hand-full so I am constantly on the run. I do plan to go & try & talk w/him---he has short hours too. I needed to get K & L better so I would not be "angry" in my attitude---we are slowly getting there. I would definitely say that what happened to K & L was a result of the dental---and the other vet that now services us confided to me that I am not the only one that this has happened to. . . . I went to this vet because he told me that he does his own cleaning (not a vet tech) which the newer vet uses---so I thought it would be safer for Lisi w/all her issues. I guess the "best laid plans of mice & men (and women) sometimes land in turmoil. :blink:
At the moment I am just working hard to get both pups able to travel safely---first out East & then back to Vienna. We still have a ways to go, but I am hopeful all will be well by the time we leave. Thank you so much for your concern---it means more than you know! Hugs.:wub:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

edelweiss said:


> Marie dearest, thank you for the good advice. In all honesty I have been too busy & too "ticked" to check back w/the vet. They don't ever answer the phone & there is no way to leave a msg. so I have to go there in person (he is semi-retired). It is out of the way of where I would normally go too---and the house has been a hand-full so I am constantly on the run. I do plan to go & try & talk w/him---he has short hours too. I needed to get K & L better so I would not be "angry" in my attitude---we are slowly getting there. I would definitely say that what happened to K & L was a result of the dental---and the other vet that now services us confided to me that I am not the only one that this has happened to. . . . I went to this vet because he told me that he does his own cleaning (not a vet tech) which the newer vet uses---so I thought it would be safer for Lisi w/all her issues. I guess the "best laid plans of mice & men (and women) sometimes land in turmoil. :blink:
> At the moment I am just working hard to get both pups able to travel safely---first out East & then back to Vienna. We still have a ways to go, but I am hopeful all will be well by the time we leave. Thank you so much for your concern---it means more than you know! Hugs.:wub:


Sandi, I don't know how you do it all ... especially traveling back and forth so much. You are an awesome Mommy to Kitzi and Lisi. I know you are busy. Although it might be difficult to talk with the doctor who did K&L's dentals ... you are not being unkind if you address the vet with your concerns. You might be saving someone else from having a bad experience with the vet. At one time, I would have never thought about it ... but, a doctor who puts a patient under anesthesia ... should always have another professional there to specifically monitor the anesthesia. 

How are your sweetie pie's doing today? Both Kitzi and Lisi are so adorable. Please give them some more gentle hugs and kisses from their Auntie Marie. Big hugs and love to you, Sandi. :wub:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Each day is a little different---we are on our 2nd round of antibiotics & I do see improvement. It was scary when they were both peeing blood---I just wanted them to be ok and I did not have the energy to deal w/confrontation. Our new vet tried to reach him but she too was w/out success. I know I will have to go there---the office is small & so full of people & dogs/cats. I will have to go very early morning to even get an audience w/him. Ugh. I hate to be confrontational---but for K & L I will do it. Prayers appreciated---that my speech will be "full of grace" but direct!


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

Lately I think that dentals are a lot more stressful to our dogs' health than I used to believe. One of my oldies had a dental that supposedly was pretty uncomplicated, and the next day she had a swelling under her jaw and before long she was diagnosed with lymphoma!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

mss said:


> Lately I think that dentals are a lot more stressful to our dogs' health than I used to believe. One of my oldies had a dental that supposedly was pretty uncomplicated, and the next day she had a swelling under her jaw and before long she was diagnosed with lymphoma!


Oh my----I am sorry to hear this! I do think having them there together helped. Did they give you a prognosis for lymphoma? Do you think it was already lurking in the background & this just brought it on?:smilie_tischkante:


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## maddysmom (Mar 8, 2012)

Sandi...I'm so happy to hear they are both feeling better. Hopefully, each day will be better and stronger for them.
Big hugs to you all :grouphug:


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

maddysmom said:


> Sandi...I'm so happy to hear they are both feeling better. Hopefully, each day will be better and stronger for them.
> Big hugs to you all :grouphug:


Thank you Johanne! We can hardly believe how much more playful they are now---I will continue w/the diet until they have finished their meds---not sure what to do then.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> Oh my----I am sorry to hear this! I do think having them there together helped. Did they give you a prognosis for lymphoma? Do you think it was already lurking in the background & this just brought it on?:smilie_tischkante:


Lymphoma in dogs ... it's a matter of extending the life, not a cure. She's getting the optimum treatment and responding well. 6 months, a year, 18 months .... we'll see.

I'm not sure but I think the stress of the dental probably speeded up what was the cancer that had not become noticeable yet. She may have had a bacterial infection somewhere in her mouth area that wasn't noticed before or during the dental because she had infection in the lymph gland that they treated for a few days before diagnosing lymphoma and starting chemo. The oncologist even said it was strange how it came on.

But she is doing very well at this time, so we're happy! She's probably 13-1/2 and pretty perky. 

It made me hesitate getting a dental for one of my other dogs, and now he's in congestive heart failure as of yesterday, so I am glad I put the dental off!


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Sometimes it doesn't matter what we do or don't do---we don't have as much control over life as I think we wish we had. We just need to relax & take one day at a time----easier said than done. They do live in the moment so let's make everyone of those moments count. All the best to your sweet babies. You do good work!


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

They do live that way, don't they.  Thank you.


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