# I'm sad and shocked



## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

I emailed the breeder who had been out of town for a couple of weeks....
(her husband and assistants had been caring for the pups while she was
out of town) She said the female pup had died and the male has a bad bite.......
She said that her other female had a couple of little girls while she was
out of town and and I could have one of those.
I think I would prefer a refund. What do you all think?
Also, I have a plane ticket and don't know if I can get a refund on that.....
Bad day.


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

Oh my!!!







I am so very sorry to hear this. I know how excited that you have been. I agree with you that I think I personally would prefer a refund. How did the little girl die? Did they give you any explanation. And I would check on the plane ticket. Sorry I'm not much more help. But I am much more sorry about how heartbreaking this must be for you.


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

Oh, i am so sorry. It`s so frustrating when that happens








My advice is that you listen to your heart when deciding if you want a refund or one of the other pups. Good luck!


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)




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## KimKarr (Feb 4, 2006)

Oh, Cary -- I am so so sorry to hear this news. I know you must be shocked as well as heartbroken. This will be a tough decision for you, I'm sure. Hopefully the right solution will present itself to you soon.


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## Skippy4Us (Feb 20, 2006)

> I emailed the breeder who had been out of town for a couple of weeks....
> (her husband and assistants had been caring for the pups while she was
> out of town) She said the female pup had died and the male has a bad bite.......
> She said that her other female had a couple of little girls while she was
> ...


i'm so sorry







I think I would try to get a refund.


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## kab (Apr 11, 2005)

So sorry to hear about the pup.


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

Awwww Cary, I am so sorry. I know how much you were looking forward to bringing you furbabies home. I agree with mmo, you should listen to your heart and it will tell you what is best for you to do. Are you still planning on getting Luke Skywalker? I know you said he had a bad bite, but to tell you the truth, I really don't know what that means. I am fairly new to the Maltese world (going on 8 months since we got our first). I assume the breeder had no more females from that litter. Please know that we are here for you and keep us posted...


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Oh, I'm so sorry.







Can you just get the male and maybe get a female at another time .... perhaps from another breeder?


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## hillary&lola (Apr 4, 2006)

definally take some time to think about it....most airlines let you put that ticket you didn't use towards another flight within a year or so. i've done that a few times, although i would call to make sure. sorry to hear of your loss


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

> Oh, I'm so sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yes I could but I feel somewhat spooked (I guess) by the fact that she also
mentioned that the male has a bad bite. Not that that has anything to do with
how I'd love the little guy but can that mean a pre-disposition to other health
issues down the road? I don't know....
I guess I'll have to start re-evaluating breeder selection in the future. If anyone
can specifically reccomend their breeder please PM me. I'm definately not at the
high end budget wise but I understand the value of a breeder with a good history.
Especially in light of this unfortunate situation. I prefer an animal near the middle
of the scale size wise. Obviously I want a pup with all the expected qualities of the breed.
Thanks for your help and support.
Cary


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=222850
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gosh, I'm not sure what she mean about bad bite. That could mean a lot of things... I really think you can get a male from a top breeder at a reasonable price. Susan (Msmagnolia) had mentioned that her breeder, Ta-jon had a couple males. They may be taken by now but maybe not! I feel so badly for you. Even though we don't have them home with us, they are ours, in our hearts, and this is bound to hurt. I am so sorry.


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## precious paws (Jun 7, 2006)

So sorry to hear your news.


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

> Oh, I'm so sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I first want to say how very sorry I am to hear this sad news and can only imagine your disappointment.







I think it's going to be a problem getting a refund form the airline so why not do what Kallie & Catchers mom suggested. At least this way you get one puppy, use your plane ticket and get a refund for the female. I'm sure at some point you'll be able to find a female closer to where you live rather then having to travel by plane to pick one up. Breeders are all over the place, you just have to look around and hopefully find someone within driving distance.


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## Boobookit (Dec 3, 2005)

Oh, I am so sorry to hear that! I guess, if I were you, I would find out HOW that furbaby dies and what exactly a "bad bite" is...Sorry I am not much help here. It just saddens me that this puppy died.

Marie & Pacino


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I feel very badly for you. It must be terrible to be so excited and then have the rug pulled out from under you! I'm not sure what the breeder is referring to with "bad bite". I know of excellent maltese who were being evaluated for show and thier bites went off and they were sold as pets. Actually my Sassy came to me that way at 6 months, and I don't believe that her eventual health problems had anything to do with the bad bite. However, your boy is very young. Maybe a breeder will step up and have some input. If the pup already has a bad bite what does that mean?

I would suggest that you listen to your heart. How confident are you about the breeder? Does she seem very concerned and is she trying to make things right for you? If she is kind of blowing you off, then that might be a sign. There are some very good breeders out there. If you wanted a boy I believe you could get one for a reasonable amount of money. If you still plan to get a pair, then you probably will have to really search. 

Your plane ticket is going to be a problem. If you cancel before the date of your flight you can probably get a credit toward a future flight, but it'll cost you approx. $100 to change and then if there is a differnce in rate you'll have to pay that too. And you will have 1 year to use the credit.


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## momtoboo (Jan 30, 2006)

Sorry.That's very disappointing news.It's sad that the little girl has died,but it would be much worse if you had brought her home & then lost her.I don't know what to advice on getting the little boy.I know the bite should be a scissor bite though.I would want more details on that.I'm sure he is lovable & cute even if he doesn't have a perfect bite.Maybe this is a sign you should start over & find another breeder.


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## Teddyandme (Feb 6, 2005)

Cary,

I am so sorry. I don't really have any advise as I am not sure what I would do either. But I do pray that your little girl knows how much you loved her. 

I pray that you find the right path.

Susan


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Sorry to hear this Cary, how very, very sad after such an exciting waiting time for your babies to come home to you.

I would go with what my heart tells me - I know none of us can afford to throw money away, but more often than not, you're instincts are 100% spot on, so you may lose out on the airline ticket, but you know you've done the right thing.


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

> I know the bite should be a scissor bite though.I would want more details on that.I'm sure he is lovable & cute even if he doesn't have a perfect bite.Maybe this is a sign you should start over & find another breeder.[/B]


(I found this when Googling)
In the field of orthodontics, attention is paid to the manner in which the teeth are arranged relative to one another (so-called "bite problems"). In evaluating a dog's bite, it is important examine all the teeth. Malpositioned teeth may be the result of teething problems and are not necessarily of genetic origin. On the other hand, evaluation of all the teeth may reveal that the bony structure supporting the teeth is abnormal, which is indeed hereditary. As many of these conditions may have a hereditary background, genetic counseling is always offered; it is often recommended that the animal be rendered incapable of reproduction. Corrective orthodontic treatment is restricted to conditions that obviously cause pain and discomfort to the patient. Both fixed and removable appliances, similar to those used in humans, have been used in animals with good results.


I am looking for a new breeder. I have not heard back from the other breeder yet.
I certainly don't want to speak (or think) negatively about the breeder.... I just don't
have 100% confidence at this point. I understand these babies are tiny even when
fully grown and that they are more delicate when so young.....








I just ordered (last week) name tags and got these cute collars.....
I'd be bummed if I couldn't work something out with the airline but am not overly
concerned about it. It was just another piece of the equation.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Cary, if you have a not so great feeling about this breeder, then by all means,
move on! There are other good breeders out there. Many of us have dogs
that are healthy and adhere closely to the standard. Good news for you!
Your pup is still out there waiting for YOU! You just have to do the homework
and find her.


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## barb (Apr 3, 2006)

That is so sad. I have been reading your posts and know how excited you have been. I think you should go with you heart, and if you feel funny about this now, don't go through with it. There will be other puppies.
Although I would probably feel bad and take the little boy. 

It does seem a little strange that the puppy died. Wasn't almost time for you to get them? Wouldn't she have noticed earlier that the puppy had a bad bite? (Whatever that means, how bad could it be if she just now saw it?) Maybe she changed her mind, and is trying to dissuade you. I told my husband (the forever skeptic) He said maybe she sold them for a higher price. Although I don't think someone would do that.

I am sorry for you. This is a tough decision.


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## evie's mom (Jun 19, 2006)

if a pup dies and one of the other pups has issues...it can tell you something about the breeder. perhaps you should inquire further about the death of the pup and then decide whether to go ahead and get a different pup or find a new breeder.

as for the plane ticket, most airlines dont issue refunds unless you paid for the option when you paid for your ticket. you can call them and ask about getting credit maybe?


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## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

Cary, i am so sorry to hear this







you must be so shocked & devastated







hang in their. Your baby will come along very soon.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I really am sorry. I hope all works out for you...




Andrea~


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## Scoobydoo (May 26, 2005)

Cary I am so sorry to hear about your puppy, I would be inclined to ask for a refund and find another breeder. Not knowing the full details of what happened with the little girl makes me wonder if the little boy could also have other health issues as well as a "bad bite", go with your heart is all I can suggest. 
Don't give up, there will be other puppies out there for you, of that I am sure


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## Maidto2Maltese (Oct 19, 2004)

Oh Cary..I am so very sorry! I know you must be so disappointed! however I am of the mindset that things happen for a reason, even if we never fully understand just what that reason is.
I have forgotten just where the destination was for you to get the pup, and have never had to change flight plans so not familiar with how the "system works. Maybe there is still 'that special 'meant to be" pup out there right now.. just have to look and maybe you'll get connected!


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## MellieMel (Mar 11, 2006)

Wow. Being in the same "future parent" category yourself, I can very much see just how devastating this would be. I do agree that if the more you talk to the breeder, the less confident you feel.. then you would always have a bit of regret if you still deal with her. But at the same time... sigh. The disappointment must be so huge. I guess I don't know what to say... I'm so sorry Cary.


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## barbsmalts (Jul 5, 2006)

> I emailed the breeder who had been out of town for a couple of weeks....
> (her husband and assistants had been caring for the pups while she was
> out of town) She said the female pup had died and the male has a bad bite.......
> She said that her other female had a couple of little girls while she was
> ...


I'm so sorry, Cary. You must be devastated. I think, if I were in your position, that I would get a refund and look for another breeder. This would just make me nervous about getting a pup from this particular breeder. There are many wonderful breeders out there. Many of us have had good experiences. If you decide to choose another breeder, I'm sure those of us on this list can help you find what you are looking for. Again, I am so sorry.


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

I posted last night before reading about the bite problems. Considering there's two issues with this breeder, it probably would be best to move on and find your puppies elsewhere. Good luck Cary.


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## bellasmommy (May 8, 2005)

Cary, I'm so sorry. I can't imagine how the breeder could call with such devastating news and not offer any more of an explanation. I will PM my breeder's info, just in case you want to check her out. I'm sorry you have to go through this.


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## charmypoo (Sep 11, 2004)

I am so sorry that "your puppy" passed away. Go with your heart .. it usually tells you what is right. I hope you find your right baby girl very soon.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Did the breeder say what the puppy had died from? If it were a disease or a congenital problem, I'd be very nervous. Even if it was hypoglycemia, you would think the breeder had enough knowledge to prevent that, especially in a puppy who was almost ready to go home.

The bad bite thing is very suspicious. How old were these puppies? I don't think a breeder can tell about a bite until the adult teeth come in - somewhere around 6 months. And puppies with less than perfect bites are sold all the time as pets by the top show breeders.

I think your gut instinct is telling you that someting isn't right here and I tend to agree. I know it is disappointing, but in the long run I think you'll be much happier if you find a new breedewr.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)




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## robin (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm so sorry Cary, I know how anxious you were to have those puppies in your arms.


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## kwaugh (May 8, 2006)

Sorry to hear about that puppy. I agree with the others, if you are having doubts about the breeder, then definitely look for another. Will she give you a full refund?? I hope so.

As for the bite, you can tell in some cases that a puppy will have a horrible bite really early on. I had one dog who had a horrible overbite, and you could see it from the time he was a puppy. All you had to do was look at him and see the overbite. You didn't even have to lift his lips up. Poor guy, he'd take one mouthful of food and like half of the food would just fall out because his bite was so bad. I think without knowing exactly what she means by having a bad bite, you really don't know if it's something that would have been hereditary versus not. But, considering that the girl from the litter died, and now this male has the bite problems I would be a bit leary. 

Personally, I think I would be sort of wondering why a breeder would be going out of town with a litter already born and needing to be raised, and to top it off, another female due with a litter of puppies. Doesn't that seem odd to anyone else? I realize emergencies come up and there is a need to be out of town, but if it's not for an emergency, just makes me wonder.

Again, sorry about losing the puppy Cary. But I'm one of those folks that truly believes that things happen for a reason. Maybe this was an early sign to find another breeder. As for the airline tickets, most airlines will allow you to credit that ticket value to another flight. I hope it all works out for you. 

Karyn


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Just a thought....

I reread your earlier posts amd you mentioned that you were getting the puppy from a backyard breeder who raises her puppies on a ranch in Arkansas. Since you are in California and I assume weren't able to visit this breeder, did you ever double-check to make sure she wasn't on either the USDA's "puppymill" list or broker list?

Arkansas is the heart of puppymill country and those places usually advertise that their puppies are raised on farms.

Here's the link to check. Scroll about halfway down:

http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/USDA.html


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> Sorry to hear about that puppy. I agree with the others, if you are having doubts about the breeder, then definitely look for another. Will she give you a full refund?? I hope so.
> 
> As for the bite, you can tell in some cases that a puppy will have a horrible bite really early on. I had one dog who had a horrible overbite, and you could see it from the time he was a puppy. All you had to do was look at him and see the overbite. You didn't even have to lift his lips up. Poor guy, he'd take one mouthful of food and like half of the food would just fall out because his bite was so bad. I think without knowing exactly what she means by having a bad bite, you really don't know if it's something that would have been hereditary versus not. But, considering that the girl from the litter died, and now this male has the bite problems I would be a bit leary.
> 
> ...


I think Karyn said it! If the puppy "dying", and the "bad bite" at such a young age weren't flags enough for me, the story of her going out of town with new puppies and puppies due would be. Then if what Lady's Mom said about it being a "backyard breeder in Arkanas" is true..........!! Run for your life Cary.


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## Matilda's mommy (Jun 1, 2005)

Oh Cary I am sooooo sorry,







I know how excited I was to get my furbaby and then to find out she was sick. I waited for almost 2 months and the breeder kept telling me she was still sick, then she would let me know she was better and I would get my hopes up and then she would say that she was going to send her, but there was always something that went wrong. You can read my old posts and see what I went through. I cried everyday, I got some really good advise from wonderful people here on SM, and it actually made me strong to tell the breeder I wasn't going to take her. I cried for days. 
Getting a puppy should be a exciting time, not one of stress and sadness. It was a short time before I found my Matilda. Everything went easy getting her. I hope you find a breeder who just happens to have two babys ready for you.











Just wanted to add that I got a email a few days ago from that first breeder I had, she kept the puupy who is now over a year old, she sent pictures of her. God blessed me with my baby, I am so glad I looked and found My sunshine Matilda. Yours will come soon


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## Gemma (Jan 19, 2006)

I'm sorry Cary







what a disappointment















Sparkey has bad bite. his upper teeth are little pushed forward so the top and bottom don't line up. his is not that bad and no problems. he is a good chewer. but there are some that are worse and could be a problem. I think you should move on and find another. you will never forgive yourself if you end up with 10 times more vet bills than the price of the plane ticket. I've seen puppies that die right after they are born which I guess it means they were not developed completely but if this one was already 8 weeks or so then I would get suspicious about the other too ( I didn't read all the other posts so I'm not sure how old she was already ) 
You will find your perfect little doggie very soon, don't worry







and don't rush.


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

Hi all,
I want to clarify some info and add some additional info.
Firstly thank you all. I appreciate the support, care and advice.

I'm sad because I was to pick up the pups in two weeks. They
were from the same litter (brother and sister) and are/were
currently 9 weeks old.

I'm waiting for the breeder to respond to my inquiries from
yesterday. We've mostly communicated through e-mail. That
will be different somewhat when I find another breeder. She
(the breeder) portrays herself as a nice family oriented Christian
woman. I have no reason to dis-believe any of the things she has
stated. 

It's not that I think the male pup is less valuable or loveable
than he was before, I am leary now because of recent events and
as someone stated the potential for higher potential vet bills. I feel
it's better to make the choice now than have to live with the
consequences for the remainder of the pups life. Though I could
potentially miss out on a long term relationship with the doggie....

She is not on any of those lists though she does advertise heavily on
the internet. I found her through a Google search because I didn't know
about SM or any particular breeders when my search started. 

The trip she took was planned well before the pups I was to pick up were
conceived (I believe from our conversations). Her assistant, her husband
and her grown kids help her out when she needs some time away from
what she says.

I wasn't originally looking for a pair, just one. I saw that she had a male 
too and her pricing was within my (prefered) budget. I have this (need I guess) 
to help or rescue so I saw that I could have the pet/friend I wanted and could
provide a permanent home to a brother and sister. (whatever that all means)









I live in New Mexico. I used to live in California (I miss it there).
Long story though.....

Did I leave anything out?









Cary


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## suzimalteselover (Mar 27, 2006)

Cary, I am so sorry to hear of your news!







Follow your heart, you will make the right 
decision, for you.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

Cary, 

I'm so sorry for your problems with the pups. I know you were looking forward to their coming home with you.

I'm also also saddened that this list has once again taken ignorance and speculation in an attempt to trash a breeder they know nothing about. 

First, about the indication of a "red flag" that the breeder left home while she had pups. Perhaps this list needs to realize that some of the top breeders you so admire do this week after week while they are on the show circuit. Who is to say that the "assistant" this woman hired was any less experienced than the one who raises the pups for these other breeders? This breeder had a bonus with her husband and children there to help, in additon to her assistant. There are some breeder I know (you would know them by name too) who hire others to whelp and raise their pups for them. Also, did any of you consider that this woman might have family members who have problems that need her care? I can think of several cases where one might need to leave. Perhaps she had an elderly parent to care for, and she saw her responsibility as being there. 

Now, about the bite on the pup. It is quite possible to tell at eight or nine weeks that this male pup had a bite that might be a problem for you, if it were serious. In my opinion, this woman was being responsible in letting you know this when she saw it was a problem. An irresponsible, non-reputable breeder would have just let you show up and not inform you of the problem. We can't even fault her for this happening in her lines. There is one well known line you would all recognize who has a problem with this in their offspring, thus, I make sure I avoid it. 

As for the little female that died. I mentioned that I'm on a breeder forum with over 700 breeders (many known in the show circles). I've been on others before this. There are a number of things that can happen to a pup other than hypoglycemia or a genetic problem. These things happen to even some of those known at the top. How do we know this is not a rare situation for this woman? Again, it can happen to anyone.

I am amazed that this reference to the USDA list of breeders is still being made without the additional information that has been provided over and over on this site to show that, while it can indicate a mill, there are some very fine breeders who have USDA numbers for other reasons. To continue to give this limited data without telling the whole story is not only showing ignorance, but it is SLANDER to those who are reputable (and, no I don't have a USDA number, but I know good, reputable show breeders of breeds other than Maltese who do). 

If you, as list members, ever expect those breeders you so admire to become contributing members of this site, then it is important to not continue this bashing when you have no experience as a breeder and no first hand knowledge of the facts.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Cary, if you decide to look elsewhere what about putting the money you were going to pay for two and just get one from another breeder. With a larger budget perhaps you will have more breeder options. 

Did the breeder mention if the puppies were home raised or are they in a barn? You might want to ask if the parents are also in a barn. When you used the word "farm", it makes me think that maybe that is the situation. 

There are several good breeders that have been mentioned in the last several days that have puppies.... I'd check those out... Divine, Ta-Jon, Rhapsody. 

http://rhapsodymaltese.com/puppies.html

http://divinemaltese.com

http://www.tajonmaltese.com/puppies/puppies.html


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

OMG!!! That baby boy from TAJON is just a cutie. What a discovery that breeder has been in the past few days with little Hope and now they have this gorgeous boy. SOMEONE get him!!!!


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

I agree - Tajon's pup is gorgeous. I want him!!! My family lives in Tulsa, so I even thought about asking hubby if we could go visit and just stop and pick the little guy up while we were there. I know what he would say though!!!


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

Already looking into that.
She said house raised (they live on a farm).
The breeders near me (I'm in NM- so Colorado) are asking $2500 for a
pet quality male. Unfortunately I'm unable and unwilling to go that high.
$1500 is kind of my max budget though I'd never admit to that amount
outside of this forum.








Thanks for those links.












> Cary, if you decide to look elsewhere what about putting the money you were going to pay for two and just get one from another breeder. With a larger budget perhaps you will have more breeder options.
> 
> Did the breeder mention if the puppies were home raised or are they in a barn? You might want to ask if the parents are also in a barn. When you used the word "farm", it makes me think that maybe that is the situation.
> 
> ...


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> Already looking into that.
> She said house raised (they live on a farm).
> The breeders near me (I'm in NM- so Colorado) are asking $2500 for a
> pet quality male. Unfortunately I'm unable and unwilling to go that high.
> ...


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

> Cary, when we took the motorhome to the Padre Islands in April, we stayed 1 night in an rv park in Raton - just curious - is that close to you. Was wondering as you said close to So. Colorado and that is as close as you can get without being in Co.[/B]



Raton is about 3 hours North. I'm about 40 minutes NW of Santa Fe in the mountains.
I actually went to photo school in downtown Denver. (lived in Englewood near DTC)


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## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

If this woman does give you a full refund maybe the SM members can help you find a reputable breeder in the same area (it will be hard with so many puppy mills in that area) so that you don't have to worry about the plane ticket. You can still use it. By the way anyone trying to sell pups before 12 weeks isn't a good breeder and you should stay clear of them anyway.


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## dolcevita (Aug 3, 2005)

Maybe she could put you in touch with her vet. If there are any health problems to worry about, he or she would probably know. I agree that people are jumping to conclusions about this breeder with very little information. Yes, I believe in trusting your intuition, but gather the facts too. The bite might not be that bad.


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## beckybc03 (Jul 6, 2006)

Hi all,

I recently joined this site and haven't had time to introduce myself yet, although I recognize quite a few names from MO (I was BostonBecky), but I came across this post and had to share my strangely similar experience. 

I too was getting a puppy from a breeder, named Kathy, in Arkansas. She portrayed herself to be Christian and raising the puppies with the help of her family. I was just so excited to find a puppy and looking back I really didn't ask the proper questions. I later came to learn that they were kept out in a "kennel run" and NOT actually raised in their home. The problems started from the beginning. She was the only puppy in the litter and her mother rejected her and she was placed with a shi tzu for milk. She took her to the vet and the vet was worried that she was dehydrated. This was around 8 weeks of age. She called me to tell me the vet was keeping her overnight and then when I called her to find out how she was doing she informed me that my puppy died. She didn't call me to tell me though! She too offered me a female from a litter she was expecting soon but I chose to take my refund and RUN. 

I'm not saying it was her fault but there were just things similar to your situation that clued me into the fact that this was not a good breeder. When I asked about getting photos and such she always said she had been so busy and hadn't had time to give the puppy a bath, etc. Hindsight I am lucky because I would ahve gotten a puppy that likely would have had problems its entire life. I was DEVASTATED like you as I was going on vacation for a week and expecting a puppy to arrive when I got home. Luckily I found a much better breeder and ended up with the sweetest happy little puppy you could ever imagine. Don't dispair, you will find a perfect puppy or puppies in your case. I too was concerned about price which is why I was going with the Arkansas breeder (she was charging $800). In the end I got Lilly for $1300 but the extra money was well worth it!

Take your refund and look elsewhere!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Just curious, Becky.....is this the breeder you are talking about?


http://kathygrigg.tripod.com/shekinah_kennel/


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> Hi all,
> 
> I recently joined this site and haven't had time to introduce myself yet, although I recognize quite a few names from MO (I was BostonBecky), but I came across this post and had to share my strangely similar experience.
> 
> ...



It would be interesting to find out if you and Cary were dealing with the same breeder - how about it Cary???


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> OMG!!! That baby boy from TAJON is just a cutie. What a discovery that breeder has been in the past few days with little Hope and now they have this gorgeous boy. SOMEONE get him!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've emailed them! I agree, he is absolutely adorable!!


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Oh Cary I'm soooooooooo sorry! I remember how geared up I was as the time approached for me to pick up Zoe! I can't even imagine the disappointment & heart ache. My gut says to be cautious with this breeder. If you can reuse your tickets for a later date, even if there may be a penalty, I think I would look for a new breeder. If not, be sure that this breeder will give you a written guarantee for the health of the her puppies. It should be for at least 12 months against any genetic health problems your vet may find with the option of a new puppy or the replacement cost there of. Even then you may want to consider that there may be heart ache involved if she turns out not to be a reputable breeder and you encounter a problem w/a baby you have bonded with.

Let us know what you decide.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I believe that another person on this site is getting the puppy on Ta-jon's site. I will let her post when she is ready. There was another boy week before last when I met Tammy. And I'm sure other pups will be available in the near futurer.


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## mmo (Sep 4, 2004)

> I believe that another person on this site is getting the puppy on Ta-jon's site. I will let her post when she is ready. There was another boy week before last when I met Tammy. And I'm sure other pups will be available in the near futurer.[/B]


Oh that`s great, it will be so exciting to watch them grow! Those cuties


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## beckybc03 (Jul 6, 2006)

Ladysmom...That IS indeed the breeder I dealt with. Do you know anything about her? I don't want to say anything "bad" about her because I don't really have any proof that she did anything wrong but it was just one of those GUT feelings.....almost a feeling of relief when I found out that the puppy passed because I started to get a very bad feeling about the health of the puppy I was getting. It just seemed that she may have been breeding sick puppies. I felt very bad that this poor puppy had to go through this horrible ordeal but I also know that she probably wouldn't have had a very long or happy life. I was fortunate enough to not have to endure the heartache after receiving the puppy. I ended up naming my new puppy, Lilly, the same name I was going to name the first one. I struggled with that decision for a few weeks but the Lilly that now owns me is a living "tribute" to the Lilly that never got to live a full life. 

All I can say is that I would NOT recommend this breeder to anyone.


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

Same breeder.
She wrote me today to state that the woman
that was supposed to care for the pups while she
was gone quit the day after she left and that the
vet said after the fact that it was probably
hypoglycemia but that she (the vet) was too late.
The back up caretakers were not experienced
enough to provide what was needed.
I think the breeder is a legit (backyard breeder),
though in hindsight was not the best choice.
Cary


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

> I believe that another person on this site is getting the puppy on Ta-jon's site. I will let her post when she is ready. There was another boy week before last when I met Tammy. And I'm sure other pups will be available in the near futurer.[/B]



*throws self on ground* NOOOOO!!!

*sniffs* But uh, congrats to whoever it is that is getting him!!


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## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

Hmmm! same breeder. How strange for the same story to be told to the two of you's.

Maybe this is a blessing in disguise Cary.


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## eyespy (Jan 31, 2006)

Cary,
Check out www.fosxstonemaltese.com here in colorado. She had 2 litters in the past few months and she has 2 beautiful boys-- it never hurts to check. She's also a member of our forum here although she does't post alot. She has beautiful dogs too...


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

> Cary,
> Check out www.fosxstonemaltese.com here in colorado. She had 2 litters in the past few months and she has 2 beautiful boys-- it never hurts to check. She's also a member of our forum here although she does't post alot. She has beautiful dogs too...[/B]



I've looked at them. They have cute puppies. I think they're out of my range though.
I will try and contact them though.
Thanks.
Cary


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't the normal time allowed to have your pup checked out by a vet, one week after delivery or acceptance of the pup? That is what it was with both Bucky and Sadie, but this lady's website said you have only 24 hrs. If someone traveled to Arkansas to pick up the pup that could be virtually impossible. I was just wondering if that struck anyone else as odd...


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## beckybc03 (Jul 6, 2006)

At the time I was so oblivious to backyard breeders, puppy mills, etc. and didn't even consider the fact that it WOULD have been difficult to have her checked out within 24 hours. She was going to be shipped to me and I just figured I would take her to the vet right away. I think that she is somewhere between a backyard breeder and a puppy mill. She ALWAYS seems to have maltese puppies available and she breeds bichons and shi tzus as well. While she may sometimes produce quality pets I wouldn't wish one of her dogs on my worst enemy. One comment she made has stuck in my head since this whole experience. After I placed my deposit I was talking on the phone with her and I said, "It seems that you really love these dogs and take care of them well." Her response, "Well they are my source of income so if I do not make sure they arrive to the owners alive, I don't get paid." Well, it looks like she isn't making a very good income now does it??


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> At the time I was so oblivious to backyard breeders, puppy mills, etc. and didn't even consider the fact that it WOULD have been difficult to have her checked out within 24 hours. She was going to be shipped to me and I just figured I would take her to the vet right away. I think that she is somewhere between a backyard breeder and a puppy mill. She ALWAYS seems to have maltese puppies available and she breeds bichons and shi tzus as well. While she may sometimes produce quality pets I wouldn't wish one of her dogs on my worst enemy. One comment she made has stuck in my head since this whole experience. After I placed my deposit I was talking on the phone with her and I said, "It seems that you really love these dogs and take care of them well." Her response, *"Well they are my source of income so if I do not make sure they arrive to the owners alive, I don't get paid." * Well, it looks like she isn't making a very good income now does it??[/B]


OMG!!! That remark says volumes, doesn't it!!!


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

> Hmmm! same breeder. How strange for the same story to be told to the two of you's.
> 
> Maybe this is a blessing in disguise Cary.[/B]










Very interesting........I can see a couple of interesting possible scenerios here.


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## Julie718 (Feb 17, 2006)

Oh no...I am so sorry to hear about the puppy.







I agree with Kallie/Catcher's Mom about getting the male puppy and maybe getting a female from another breeder. I think that is a really good idea.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> At the time I was so oblivious to backyard breeders, puppy mills, etc. and didn't even consider the fact that it WOULD have been difficult to have her checked out within 24 hours. She was going to be shipped to me and I just figured I would take her to the vet right away. I think that she is somewhere between a backyard breeder and a puppy mill. She ALWAYS seems to have maltese puppies available and she breeds bichons and shi tzus as well. While she may sometimes produce quality pets I wouldn't wish one of her dogs on my worst enemy. One comment she made has stuck in my head since this whole experience. After I placed my deposit I was talking on the phone with her and I said, "It seems that you really love these dogs and take care of them well." Her response, "Well they are my source of income so if I do not make sure they arrive to the owners alive, I don't get paid." Well, it looks like she isn't making a very good income now does it??[/B]


I am so glad you followed your instincts and got out of that situation, Becky! It sounds like she's got a pretty large scale operation there and she can circumvent the USDA by selling directly to people over the internet. 

My definition of a backyard breeder is the lady down the street who breeds her pet to her friend's pet or gets a male and female and does the breeding herself. Those puppies are usually advertised in newspaper ads. This place sounds more like a puppy mill to me and I'd bet my bottom dollar those puppies are being raised in cages, not her home. 

To date, there is still no legislation that governs direct sales to consumers, internet sales, or even pet shops. It is definately "buyer beware" when it comes to internet sales. That's why it's so important to get a puppy from a breeder with a proven reputation.

Cary, I know you are heartbroken over this, but in the long run it is probably the best thing that could have happened to you. Even if you have to save a little longer, get a puppy from a reputable breeder. It will be worth the wait in the long run.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Oh no...I am so sorry to hear about the puppy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Julie! Actually, we've had some more info posted since I posted that. So if it were me, I would look for another breeder.


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## MissMelanie (Feb 13, 2006)

> Hmmm! same breeder. How strange for the same story to be told to the two of you's.
> 
> Maybe this is a blessing in disguise Cary.[/B]


 *Cary I do not think this is a "maybe" at all. I am so sorry you have had to go though this but, please know you have been saved from goodness how much more heartache.

I will keep you in my prayers for the REAL Luke and Leia. I have faith, you should too.

After all, I got Mr Wookie and I never ever thought I would have an "angel".

Take care of yourself and by the way, if you wish to come to south Florida doggie hunting, I would be happy to show you around.
















Miss Melanie

*


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

> I will keep you in my prayers for the REAL Luke and Leia. I have faith, you should too.
> After all, I got Mr Wookie and I never ever thought I would have an "angel".
> Take care of yourself and by the way, if you wish to come to south Florida doggie hunting, I would be happy to show you around.
> 
> ...




Thank you.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I found some more information about Kathy Grigg of Shekinah Kennel. There is a report on her with the Arkansas Better Business Bureau. 

Guess what? She's not even a breeder, she's classified as an *animal broker/dealer* by the BBB! So much for happy puppies running free on her ranch! My guess is that she gets the puppies from the local puppy mill, then sells them online. That would explain all these mysterious deaths when delivery time rolls around. Sounds like she's taking deposits on puppies she doesn't yet have and when the time comes to deliver them and she can't get her hands on a puppy, they mysteriously die.

Just my opinion, of course.

http://www.arkansas.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=4001064


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## wagirl98665 (Jan 5, 2006)

> I found some more information about Kathy Grigg of Shekinah Kennel. There is a report on her with the Arkansas Better Business Bureau.
> 
> Guess what? She's not even a breeder, she's an *animal broker/dealer*! So much for happy puppies running free on her ranch! My guess is that she gets the puppies from the local puppy mill, then sells them online. That would explain all these mysterious deaths when delivery time rolls around. Sounds like she's taking deposits on puppies she doesn't yet have and when the time comes to deliver them and she can't get her hands on a puppy, they mysteriously die.
> 
> http://www.arkansas.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=4001064[/B]


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## Zoe and Bella's mom (Jan 23, 2006)

So sorry to hear the bad news. I wish you the best in getting everything straightened out and in finding the right pup.

ginny & zoe & bella


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I also found her on the USDA Breeder list for 2001.

http://www.geocities.com/malteseonly/usda/...ealers_a_1.html


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

It appears that maybe we weren't so ignorant after all!!! I think that what we know being coupled with Cary's original posts sometime ago that his pup was coming from a backyard breeder, makes us all realize that Cary and Becky were both fortunate in not getting pups from this woman. She has her beautiful Lily now and soon Cary will find his perfect furbabies.


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## beckybc03 (Jul 6, 2006)

Could someone explain what being on the USDA list of breeders or dealers means? I'm sorry, I don't know anything about this.

Gregswife, yes, I consider myself very lucky to have found Lilly and not gotten a puppy from that woman! Everything happens for a reason right?


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Could someone explain what being on the USDA list of breeders or dealers means? I'm sorry, I don't know anything about this.
> 
> Gregswife, yes, I consider myself very lucky to have found Lilly and not gotten a puppy from that woman! Everything happens for a reason right?[/B]



While it can be a good indication that this person is a broker or one who sells their pups wholesale, it can also be nothing more than this person is required to have a USDA license because of their state or city regulations. It is unfortunate that when this is presented on SM, the fact that there are some very fine show breeders (I know some who have other breeds) who are lumped into the category with the brokers and puppymills. 
Before one labels a person a puppymill or a broker based just on the fact that they have a USDA licesnse, they need to investigate further to see WHY they have this license. For instance, one of the people I know who has one has a small number of Poms (five or so) who live in her house and are family pets that she also shows. She is required by her state to have this USDA license because her family is actively involved in showing the miniature horses, so all "livestock" they own is grouped in the category for USDA.
A well respected member of this forum, Mary who is actively involved in rescue, has responded to this with appropriate information on at least two occasions, because she is like me in not wanting to see breeders all lumped together as bad because they are required to have this license for reasons other than selling their dogs wholesale. I'll try to find the last post she made about this.


Here is a very good post from Mary H. that gives some valid information. I hope it is OK to copy/paste the whole SM post she made. If not, I apologize.

I've been a "lurker" on this site for a couple of years and registered just a fews weeks ago. Joe, you have done a fabulous job putting together a truly wonderful forum.

I wanted to share some insight on a couple of areas mentioned in this thread but, first, a bit about me and my dogs. I've been deeply involved in Maltese rescue for many years, having adopted from and worked with various rescue organizations through the years. All of my rescues have received their Canine Good Citizen titles. One has trained and titled in Obedience. One is a certified therapy dog. One is training in Agility. One is training in Rally. And my one "non-Rescue" was purchased as a puppy from a reputable breeder. I showed and finished him to his Championship in conformation and we are now training in Rally. Many of you on this forum know me, know my dogs, and know of my passion for helping the little ones in need. Enough about me and my dogs ....

USDA List - Unfortunately there is much misperception about this list. Yes, you can search and get information about a particular breeder on the list if that particular breeder has been USDA inspected. But, NO, you cannot assume that every breeder on the USDA list is a puppymill, a high volume breeder, or even a backyard breeder. In my state, Massachusetts, dog ownership limits are set by individual cities and towns. And in my town, if I were to exceed the set limit, I would have to apply for a non-commercial kennel license, even though I am not breeding or operating any sort of kennel, and would have to provide justification for the number of dogs I own and open my home to Board of Health inspection. In many states, however, including some of those listed by the HSUS as the largest puppymill states in the country, dog limits and breeder/kennel licenses are not regulated at the local or state level. Instead, some of these states require that if you own more than "X" number of dogs or breed more than "X" number of litters you must have a USDA license. So if someone living in one of these states feels a responsibility to abide by the law they apply for a USDA license, despite the fact that the USDA may not require it. That automatically puts the breeder on the USDA list and, sadly, lumps many good, loving, responsible individuals in with what are commonly perceived as puppymills.

AKC Inspections - Anyone who breeds and registers with the AKC 7 or more litters per year is automatically put on the AKC radar screen for inspection. BUT, this does not mean that only these breeders get inspected. Anyone who registers even one litter with the AKC can be subject to inspection.

My advice to anyone looking to purchase a puppy is to use all of the information here and everywhere else on the internet as a research tool. I could (and do) talk until I'm blue in the face about why I would not purchase a puppy from a pet shop. And because I'm a "touchy feely" kind of person I wanted to see puppies and their environment before making a commitment. So use your head. You are purchasing a living being and are (or should be) making a lifetime commitment to his or her well-being. 
Forum:


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Here is a link to the Prisoners of Greed website that has a lot of information on the USDA, how it regulates breeders, and puppy mills. It contains many useful links to downloadable information including the Animal Welfare Act, current breeder and broker lists and even some inspection reports.

http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/USDA.html


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Here is a link to the Prisoners of Greed website that has a lot of information on the USDA, how it regulates breeders, and puppy mills. It contains many useful links to downloadable information including the Animal Welfare Act, current breeder and broker lists and even some inspection reports.
> 
> http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/USDA.html[/B]



I checked the breeder being discussed in this link, and she is not on either of these lists for 2006.

I have also sent an email to the Arkansas Better Business Bureau, asking for more information on the categories for animal sales. From what I've learned so far, this might be the only category. If so, then anyone who has a complaint filed against them that deals with selling an animal would be grouped under this category. I will let SM members know when I get more information from Better Business Bureau. 
I guess I've just been involved in too much research in my life and also had exposure to too many people being slandered when only part of the information was available. I like to have all the facts before me before I make a conclusion, whether it is dealing with a dog, a rock, or how I am going to deal with a particular situation with a patient. As members of this forum, and contributers to information that is out there for all to read, I just think it is the responsible thing to do to have all the facts before putting something into print, expeciallly assumptions not backed up by solid facts.


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## beckybc03 (Jul 6, 2006)

Wow, I really feel like I was so stupid to consider purchasing from this woman! She definitely puts herself out there to be solely a breeder but looking back I was just really ignorant...and in desperate want for a puppy. I remember back, before I put the deposit down, asking her for pictures of the parents and she kept avoiding the question. "oh we just changed computers, all of the pictures are on the old one, etc. etc." I knew that she probably wasn't the "best" breeder but her prices were reasonable and I was just in the dark on so many things. I did a search of her name and the name of her kennel and I didn't come up with anything that seemed contrary to what she was saying and I didn't find a negative thing said about her. I guess I wasn't looking in the right place! 

My question is though, if she didn't yet have the puppies, where were the pictures I got every week coming from? This is all very strange and I truly hope that anyone reading this forum never considers buying from her. 

Thanks for all of your information and input!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Who knows what her story is? People can get pictures from anywhere. Some of our SM members have had pictures they have posted here stolen, only later to turn up on Puppyfind as puppies for sale! We had one member about a year ago correspond with a breeder and get regular pictures of a puppy, only to meet this woman at the airport and find that she was trying to pawn off a completely different puppy on her. 

For me, the fact that this woman has been reported to the Arkansas Better Business Bureau and is listed as a broker/dealer with them, has been on the USDA list of breeders, and has two people who have had nearly identical experiences with puppies dying before they were shipped, is enough reason for me to suspect that she would not fit my definition of a respectable breeder. 

Again, this is just my personal opinion.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Wow, I really feel like I was so stupid to consider purchasing from this woman! She definitely puts herself out there to be solely a breeder but looking back I was just really ignorant...and in desperate want for a puppy. I remember back, before I put the deposit down, asking her for pictures of the parents and she kept avoiding the question. "oh we just changed computers, all of the pictures are on the old one, etc. etc." I knew that she probably wasn't the "best" breeder but her prices were reasonable and I was just in the dark on so many things. I did a search of her name and the name of her kennel and I didn't come up with anything that seemed contrary to what she was saying and I didn't find a negative thing said about her. I guess I wasn't looking in the right place!
> 
> My question is though, if she didn't yet have the puppies, where were the pictures I got every week coming from? This is all very strange and I truly hope that anyone reading this forum never considers buying from her.
> 
> Thanks for all of your information and input![/B]



The pictures probably came from pups she raised. There is no evidence that she is currently a broker of dogs, either through USDA records or the Arkansas Better Business Bureau. The statement that she was not breeding the dogs was an assumption of one person, not backed up by facts. The 2006 USDA list was available to them because it was posted by the same author, but apparently not checked. It took very little effort to check with Arkansas BBB to see that the person was lumped in that category with this complaint because the Dog Breeder category was not available with the old complaint. I just received a reply to my email, and I am doing a copy/paste to let list members see the reply I received. Here is what I received:

From the information provided, I think the complaint would fall under
the Dog Breeder category. There are past complaints involving private
breeders that are categorized as Animal Broker/Dealers because the Dog
Breeder category was not available at the time. I hope this has answered
your question. Let me know if there is anything else I can do to assist
you.

Debra Fuqua
Director, Dispute Resolution Services
Better Business Bureau of Arkansas, Inc.
(501) 664-4888 x 108 phone
(501) 664-0024 fax


So, what do we now know about this breeder? She is not a broker, nor does she sell her dogs wholesale. She is not USDA according to the 2006 listing. She raises three types of dogs. There is no evidence that she is buying dogs for resale. We do not know how many dogs she has, nor do we know whether they are raised in her home, in a garage, a barn, or in outside pens. She has a regard for her pups that you or I do not by her statement that they must be healthy to get to their new owner or she will not make money. That one statement alone would make me run from her. 

As for pictures--I've been working an hour to get one on a pup I have here. I am not there yet. It takes that long to get one groomed and ready, even if they are just ready for their regular bath. I really need to be a work, instead of taking the time for this. Then, there is getting them to stand for the picture. It is not one of my favorite things to do, so I certainly wouldn't fault her on this. I am computer illiterate, and many of my picures are lost in never never land on my two laptops I no longer use. I neglected to save them. Stupid, but I learned from my mistakes. I keep my adults clipped down, and I would need to send prospective owners a picture of them like this. So, to give her the benefit of the doubt, she might just have her adults clipped down and not have pictures she thinks you would be interested in seeing.

Folks, I hate to keep coming across as the one who takes the opposite side, but when I was growing up, my father told me that eveything had two sides. He also told me that if I ever found anything that just had one, he would give me a dollar. That was my whole allowance for a week then, (yes, I'm old) so I kept looking. I am so glad my father taught me this life lesson. It is something I feel all of us need to be a responsible human being. I also think it is irresponsible to put things on the internet for others to read unless it is known as a verified fact.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Who knows what her story is? People can get pictures from anywhere. Some of our SM members have had pictures they have posted here stolen, only later to turn up on Puppyfind as puppies for sale! We had one member about a year ago correspond with a breeder and get regular pictures of a puppy, only to meet this woman at the airport and find that she was trying to pawn off a completely different puppy on her.
> 
> For me, the fact that this woman has been reported to the Arkansas Better Business Bureau and is listed as a broker/dealer with them, has been on the USDA list of breeders, and has two people who have had nearly identical experiences with puppies dying before they were shipped, is enough reason for me to suspect that she would not fit my definition of a respectable breeder.
> 
> Again, this is just my personal opinion.[/B]



Was this the unfortunate member who had also lost a pup because she bought one from a pet store? I recall the one who had this happen. The pup was flown in to her, and she ended up sending it back. She finally got her money back, but she lost the cost of the airline shipping. I later met this breeder at a show. In fact, showed against her two days. It was all I could do to not tell her I knew what she did to a SM







member.


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## beckybc03 (Jul 6, 2006)

Nope, I'm a different member. The puppy died before I got her.

I do believe that she did actually take the photos of the puppy I was to receive as the pictures made sense based on timing and how old the dog would have been. The pictures also had similar backgrounds to all of the photos on her website. 

I have no idea if she is a broker/breeder/or combination of the two. I DO know that she keeps her dogs outside in kennel runs which I also learned after I put my deposit down. Like I said, I am much more informed now but I also don't want to go out there spreading things about her that aren't true. I guess what we can all learn from this is that she probably isn't the most reputable of breeders but as long as there are people out there (like I was) that are uneducated about the care and breeding of dogs, she will continue to be in business and most likely continue to lose young puppies before they make it to their homes. 

Ironically enough, the breeder I ended up getting my Lilly from was also named Kathy and the two dogs were born on EXACTLY the same day....she was totally meant for me!


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> Nope, I'm a different member. The puppy died before I got her.
> 
> I do believe that she did actually take the photos of the puppy I was to receive as the pictures made sense based on timing and how old the dog would have been. The pictures also had similar backgrounds to all of the photos on her website.
> 
> ...



The picture situation with the pup who was the wrong one to arrive at the airport was from a situation with a member a year or so ago. She and I did correspond by PM, and she also was involved in trying to expose the owner of the business from where she got her first pup. Your situation is totally different.

It's a shame this woman keeps her precious Maltese in outside runs. It's also sad that she lost pups, but this can happen to the best of breeders, regardless of what measures they take to avoid it. It's unfortunate that it happened to both you and Cary, and while it is suspect, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt because I don't have the facts to know otherwise. To make assumptions would be irresponsible on my part. I do know that, for me, the hardest time is around the time they are weaning. For such a smart breed, they can act so stupid sometimes when it comes to eating. I think that they may play too hard, then sleep, and, when they wake up their little body is already in trouble. This is why I am so compulsive about mine when I do have pups. I have actually lost pups and had a post done that came back "atypical hypoglycemia" when I was monitoring regular food intake and know the pup was eating on a regular basis. There are also a number of bugs out there that pups can get. I guess I just have a different prospective of the situation since I do read posts on a forum of over 700 breeders, and I do have a number of friends who are actively involved in breeding. Unless and until members of this site have experineced the challenge of breeding and raising Maltese pups, there is really no way you can understand the whole picture.


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## Gregswife (Mar 6, 2006)

> Who knows what her story is? People can get pictures from anywhere. Some of our SM members have had pictures they have posted here stolen, only later to turn up on Puppyfind as puppies for sale! We had one member about a year ago correspond with a breeder and get regular pictures of a puppy, only to meet this woman at the airport and find that she was trying to pawn off a completely different puppy on her.
> 
> For me, the fact that this woman has been reported to the Arkansas Better Business Bureau and is listed as a broker/dealer with them, has been on the USDA list of breeders, and has two people who have had nearly identical experiences with puppies dying before they were shipped, is enough reason for me to suspect that she would not fit my definition of a respectable breeder.
> 
> Again, this is just my personal opinion.[/B]



Marj, I thoroughly share your opinion. Regardless of all the other info, the very fact that 2 of our members have had the same experience would make me turn tail and run.


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## Cary (Jun 11, 2006)

I made my decision to not purchase
a pup from this breeder because of
my concern about the other pups health
(he may be completely healthy except
for the bite issue) after his sisters death.
Had things not turned out the way they
did I would have two pups that I'm sure
I'd have loved and enjoyed.
Certainly her pups may not be of the caliber
of some of the show breeders but I do
believe they are viable pets and are within
the breed standard.
Whatever your opinion about pet shops,
backyard breeders brokers and the like
I do believe there are alternatives to the
"name brand" breeders. (who may or may
not actually raise their animals any differently
than the backyard breeder)
It was never my intention to have anyone bash
Kathy as though she were a criminal. I do not
believe that about her. I do believe she at least
tries to be accurate in the way she does business.
If I'm being naive then I'd like to remain that way.
That doesn't mean I won't continue to educate
myself and try to make better informed decisions
in the future.
I believe we are here as a community to share
information, experiences, joy and heartache. We
can be aquaintances, friends etc. That's where the value
is in this community. It does seem at times that like
sharks we tend to smell blood in the water and a
feeding frenzy ensues which I think effects the
reputation and respect that this community has built.
I do appreciate everyones response to this topic and
my experience. I hope that we can see it for what it
is...... a learning experience.
Cary


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## jude'n'jools (Apr 6, 2006)

> I made my decision to not purchase
> a pup from this breeder because of
> my concern about the other pups health
> (he may be completely healthy except
> ...










Well said!


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

> I made my decision to not purchase
> a pup from this breeder because of
> my concern about the other pups health
> (he may be completely healthy except
> ...


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> I believe we are here as a community to share
> information, experiences, joy and heartache. We
> can be aquaintances, friends etc. That's where the value
> is in this community. It does seem at times that like
> ...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Cary, I want to apologize to you and Brenda and anyone else I may have offended by my posts. I should have just posted the link to the BBB report and let everyone make their own conclusions rather than letting my imagination go wild with speculation about what it meant. As Happy B pointed out, I only had half the truth and should not have jumped to conclusions about this breeder.

Thank you, my SM family, for pointing out my error and please accept my apologies for creating such a ruckus.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> Cary, I want to apologize to you and Brenda and anyone else I may have offended by my posts. I should have just posted the link to the BBB report and let everyone make their own conclusions rather than letting my imagination go wild with speculation about what it meant. As Happy B pointed out, I only had half the truth and should not have jumped to conclusions about this breeder.
> 
> Thank you, my SM family, for pointing out my error and please accept my apologies for creating such a ruckus.[/B]



AWWW.. I think your such a great source of info..And I wait to hear all of your advice and Happy b's too, oh and Brinkley & Neylands MOM.. think you all are Icons and and a great source of alot of topics here..

Andrea~


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## Brinkley & Neyland's Mom (Jun 14, 2004)

> Cary, I want to apologize to you and Brenda and anyone else I may have offended by my posts. I should have just posted the link to the BBB report and let everyone make their own conclusions rather than letting my imagination go wild with speculation about what it meant. As Happy B pointed out, I only had half the truth and should not have jumped to conclusions about this breeder.
> 
> Thank you, my SM family, for pointing out my error and please accept my apologies for creating such a ruckus.[/B]
































We know you meant well...


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## hambys97 (Feb 25, 2005)

Cary,
While this topic may have slipped off course, I do hope that you have learned some very important things about what to look for in the future. I wish you the best of luck in your continued search for the puppy (puppies) of your dreams. I am so sorry for all the disappointment and heartache that I know you must have felt/be feeling. 
Again, best of luck. I hope your pup is just around the corner for you.


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## Ania (May 14, 2004)

The same thing happened to me. Worse, my pyppy died the day i was supposed to pick her up. (10 hour drive) 
The breeder called, but it was too late. I was on my way. 
It is only after i got there, i found out she died. She was under 1 pound at age 12wks. I was devostaded. After all the pictures i received, i was getting nothing in the end. 

I did ended up getting her sister.....but thats a long story for a different day. 

Im really sorry for your loss.


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## HappyB (Feb 28, 2005)

> The same thing happened to me. Worse, my pyppy died the day i was supposed to pick her up. (10 hour drive)
> The breeder called, but it was too late. I was on my way.
> It is only after i got there, i found out she died. She was under 1 pound at age 12wks. I was devostaded. After all the pictures i received, i was getting nothing in the end.
> 
> ...



A pup that is under one pound at 12 weeks is not a good risk for anyone to take. I am surprised that a breeder would let one go like this. I would be highly suspect of one that size, and, for anyone reading this thread, I would hope they would think twice if a breeder offers them one that small. Not only is there a lot of care required for one that tiny, but there is also a big risk that a pup like this has a liver shunt or some other health issue.


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## CandicePK (Nov 11, 2004)

I never involve myself in topics like this for far too many reasons to state here. Having said that however -here are my views.

I am one of those who has offered HappyB my sincerest support when she posts her (for me) eye opening opinions. My personal belief is that there are good and bad in every category - be it show breeders or hobby breeders.

For some of us it was not possible to spend upwards of $1,000.00 for a show breeder's pet quality pups. I echo and applaude Cary's statement....let this be a learning experience.


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## Ania (May 14, 2004)

Really, the reason was unknown. It just happened. The puppy was at the vet for a final check up, and everything was ok. Parents were always healthy, on a small scale of 3 pounds. 

I thought i found a loving caring home raised breeder. Tat was not the case. Website was beautifull, but in reality, all the dogs were in cages. Horrible, horrible experience.


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