# Tear stains? I know this has been discussed



## Rocky's Mom

but I still do not understand why I cannot keep the staining from happening. I wash Rocky's face every day, clean his eyes...is it better to have hair short around eyes or long? 

Any help with this is appreciated....I don't want my beautiful boy's face stained.:mellow:


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## Nikki's Mom

I know that this is a non-answer, but the best thing you can do is to keep his face clean and dry and be patient until he is 1. 

My Nikki had horrible tear stains when she was a puppy and it bothered me a lot. People actually said nasty things to me about her appearance. As if I could prevent them. 

But now they are virtually gone. When she had them, we had a daily routine. We checked to make sure there were no hairs in her eyes, used a gentle eye wash, then washed the face and beard with Spa Lavish facial scrub, dried, and then combed cornstarch or baking soda through the hair to keep the area clean and dry, then we brushed her teeth. 

We still do the same routine ever other day, even though there are no tear stains anymore. (We don't need the cornstarch/baking soda anymore)

Hope this helps.


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## Rocky's Mom

Thank you....but I have a couple of questions if you don't mind answering.
1. how do you keep the hair out of her eyes? Trim?
2. is there a particular eye wash you used? I use eye pads for tear staining.
3. Where do you get Spa Lavish? Is it just for the face?
4. How do you put the cornstarch around his eyes?

Sorry if I am a dodo brain, LOL.




Nikki's Mom said:


> I know that this is a non-answer, but the best thing you can do is to keep his face clean and dry and be patient until he is 1.
> 
> My Nikki had horrible tear stains when she was a puppy and it bothered me a lot. People actually said nasty things to me about her appearance. As if I could prevent them.
> 
> But now they are virtually gone. When she had them, we had a daily routine. We checked to make sure there were no hairs in her eyes, used a gentle eye wash, then washed the face and beard with Spa Lavish facial scrub, dried, and then combed cornstarch or baking soda through the hair to keep the area clean and dry, then we brushed her teeth.
> 
> We still do the same routine ever other day, even though there are no tear stains anymore. (We don't need the cornstarch/baking soda anymore)
> 
> Hope this helps.


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## Nikki's Mom

Some of our SM Vendors sell Spa Lavish. 

I use this eye wash: Advanced Eye Relief Eye Wash | WalgreensA lot of people use the Collyirium eye wash. I think that they're pretty much the same product. 

Some dogs have a lot of tiny hairs in and around the eyes. I didn't cut the hairs, but made sure they weren't poking in her eyes. It is really a personal choice about trimming the hairs. I asked Nikki's groomer to try and keep an eye on the hairs near her eyes and trim them when/if they were getting too close. I was always afraid to do that myself.

After I washed and dried her, I applied a little bit of cornstarch on a cotton ball and combed it through her face/beard with a flea comb.

That's just my method. There are a lot of others who have their own ways of dealing with tear stains.


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## Toby's Mom

Rocky's Mom said:


> Thank you....but I have a couple of questions if you don't mind answering.
> 1. how do you keep the hair out of her eyes? Trim?
> 2. is there a particular eye wash you used? I use eye pads for tear staining.
> 3. Where do you get Spa Lavish? Is it just for the face?
> 4. How do you put the cornstarch around his eyes?
> 
> Sorry if I am a dodo brain, LOL.


1.) I know you aren't asking me, but I always trim the hair out of Toby's eyes and it does help with the staining. However, Toby is very calm and I am so careful with scissors around his eye. 

4.) I used to use cornstarch around Toby's eyes too. I used a small make-up brush, dipped it in his own container of CS and patted it onto the eye area. It also is a nice cover up too--it temporarily whitens the area.

Hope that helps some!


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## majik921

I had a homeless man walk past my table several times the other day while I was having a drink with a friend at a doggie friendly bar and he kept yelling at me that my dog looked terrible and that I needed to use boric acid on the tear stains and that any bad stuff the dog was doing was its owner's fault. I couldn't help but be offended as I don't think Bernie's stains are that bad. But I do have the groomer trim her face every 90 days and that seems to keep them at bay. I know once she's officially no longer a puppy that the stains will calm down.


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## Tina

Here is an article written by this veterinarian who describes what causes the tear staining in a complex way. This is actually what it is. White hair is colorless, so it takes on any color that comes in contact with it for a short while. 

Most dog and cat owners are surprised to learn the reddish tear staining that originates from the inside corners of the eyes is not actually a blood stain.*The reddish color is a chemical derived from degenerating red blood cells as they age and are broken down in the spleen and liver. The chemical is called porphyrin. The dictionary of biochemistry defines it as a dark red, photosensitive pigment consisting of four pyrrole rings linked by single carbon atom: a component of chlorophyll, heme, and vitamin B12.* When this enzyme is exposed to oxygen it turns the tears into a rusty color. The term used to describe excessive tear spillage over the lower lids is epiphora. So why do some dogs and cats always have that wet, reddish stain running from the inside corner of the eyes down the cheeks? And what makes the dry, crusty **** that builds up? There are several potential causes and for any individual pet one or more of these abnormalities portends a lifelong issue with tear stains and epiphora. The major causes of tear spillage and staining are the following:
a.) inward rolling of the eyelid (called entropion) causing hairs to contact the corneal surface, excess tear production and often corneal irritation and damage
b.) outward rolling of the lower eyelids (called ectropion) permitting the tears to spill over onto the face
c.) blocked or undeveloped tear duct openings in the medial (nasal side) corners of the eye lids
d.) distichiasis… hairs that grow in an abnormal place or at an abnormal angle
e.) infection in or blocked lacrimal drainage channel (called dacryocystitis) that leads from the eyelid into the nasal cavity
f.) anatomical abnormalities that bunch up and constrict the structures of the nasal side of the eye socket tissues
g.) irritating foreign body in the eye

Short faced breeds of pets such as Himalayan cats and Pekingese dogs almost always have minor to severe dysfunction of tear drainage. Saint Bernards are notorious for ectropion of the lower lids and the resultant wetness from spilled tear fluid onto the face.
In many cases all that is needed is gentle wiping away of the facial wetness on a daily basis. The rusty colored staining may still occur but by gentle cleansing you can eliminate the dry, crusty buildup that often creates skin irritation beneath its scabby structure. This clump of crusty material is dried tears, mucous, sebum and dead skin. Trimming the hair carefully in the area of crusty accumulation is helpful but watch out to avoid any contact with the corneas!


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## Rocky's Mom

Thanks so much to you both....I will try it!!!



Nikki's Mom said:


> Some of our SM Vendors sell Spa Lavish.
> 
> I use this eye wash: Advanced Eye Relief Eye Wash | WalgreensA lot of people use the Collyirium eye wash. I think that they're pretty much the same product.
> 
> Some dogs have a lot of tiny hairs in and around the eyes. I didn't cut the hairs, but made sure they weren't poking in her eyes. It is really a personal choice about trimming the hairs. I asked Nikki's groomer to try and keep an eye on the hairs near her eyes and trim them when/if they were getting too close. I was always afraid to do that myself.
> 
> After I washed and dried her, I applied a little bit of cornstarch on a cotton ball and combed it through her face/beard with a flea comb.
> 
> That's just my method. There are a lot of others who have their own ways of dealing with tear stains.





Toby's Mom said:


> 1.) I know you aren't asking me, but I always trim the hair out of Toby's eyes and it does help with the staining. However, Toby is very calm and I am so careful with scissors around his eye.
> 
> 4.) I used to use cornstarch around Toby's eyes too. I used a small make-up brush, dipped it in his own container of CS and patted it onto the eye area. It also is a nice cover up too--it temporarily whitens the area.
> 
> Hope that helps some!


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## Rocky's Mom

Oh my gosh....how awful for you! I'd chalk it up to perhaps he wasn't all there? 



majik921 said:


> I had a homeless man walk past my table several times the other day while I was having a drink with a friend at a doggie friendly bar and he kept yelling at me that my dog looked terrible and that I needed to use boric acid on the tear stains and that any bad stuff the dog was doing was its owner's fault. I couldn't help but be offended as I don't think Bernie's stains are that bad. But I do have the groomer trim her face every 90 days and that seems to keep them at bay. I know once she's officially no longer a puppy that the stains will calm down.


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## Rocky's Mom

Thanks for the information....very interesting. I hope he outgrows it after he is not a puppy anymore. I have cut his hair around his eyes before. He's pretty good staying still for it too.



Tina said:


> Here is an article written by this veterinarian who describes what causes the tear staining in a complex way. This is actually what it is. White hair is colorless, so it takes on any color that comes in contact with it for a short while.
> 
> Most dog and cat owners are surprised to learn the reddish tear staining that originates from the inside corners of the eyes is not actually a blood stain.*The reddish color is a chemical derived from degenerating red blood cells as they age and are broken down in the spleen and liver. The chemical is called porphyrin. The dictionary of biochemistry defines it as a dark red, photosensitive pigment consisting of four pyrrole rings linked by single carbon atom: a component of chlorophyll, heme, and vitamin B12.* When this enzyme is exposed to oxygen it turns the tears into a rusty color. The term used to describe excessive tear spillage over the lower lids is epiphora. So why do some dogs and cats always have that wet, reddish stain running from the inside corner of the eyes down the cheeks? And what makes the dry, crusty **** that builds up? There are several potential causes and for any individual pet one or more of these abnormalities portends a lifelong issue with tear stains and epiphora. The major causes of tear spillage and staining are the following:
> a.) inward rolling of the eyelid (called entropion) causing hairs to contact the corneal surface, excess tear production and often corneal irritation and damage
> b.) outward rolling of the lower eyelids (called ectropion) permitting the tears to spill over onto the face
> c.) blocked or undeveloped tear duct openings in the medial (nasal side) corners of the eye lids
> d.) distichiasis… hairs that grow in an abnormal place or at an abnormal angle
> e.) infection in or blocked lacrimal drainage channel (called dacryocystitis) that leads from the eyelid into the nasal cavity
> f.) anatomical abnormalities that bunch up and constrict the structures of the nasal side of the eye socket tissues
> g.) irritating foreign body in the eye
> 
> Short faced breeds of pets such as Himalayan cats and Pekingese dogs almost always have minor to severe dysfunction of tear drainage. Saint Bernards are notorious for ectropion of the lower lids and the resultant wetness from spilled tear fluid onto the face.
> In many cases all that is needed is gentle wiping away of the facial wetness on a daily basis. The rusty colored staining may still occur but by gentle cleansing you can eliminate the dry, crusty buildup that often creates skin irritation beneath its scabby structure. This clump of crusty material is dried tears, mucous, sebum and dead skin. Trimming the hair carefully in the area of crusty accumulation is helpful but watch out to avoid any contact with the corneas!


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## iheartbisou

majik921 said:


> I had a homeless man walk past my table several times the other day while I was having a drink with a friend at a doggie friendly bar and he kept yelling at me that my dog looked terrible and that I needed to use boric acid on the tear stains and that any bad stuff the dog was doing was its owner's fault. I couldn't help but be offended as I don't think Bernie's stains are that bad. But I do have the groomer trim her face every 90 days and that seems to keep them at bay. I know once she's officially no longer a puppy that the stains will calm down.


wow- that's sort of random isn't it? that he would advise you to use boric acid on her staining out of the blue like that. Maybe he was a groomer/vet/ dog trainer or had a white dog in another life?


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## Kitkat

iheartbisou said:


> wow- that's sort of random isn't it? that he would advise you to use boric acid on her staining out of the blue like that. Maybe he was a groomer/vet/ dog trainer or had a white dog in another life?



LOL...at the "in another life" remark, that is....
But I agree, I wouldn't pay any attention to that meany man. Your doggy is beautiful and why a Homeless person would comment on physical appearance, out of everything else he could focus on, is beyond me...I bet he wasn', in fact, all there, unfortunately.

On another note, I have a question too about tearstaining....about Eye Envy more specifially...I was looking into purchasing this BUT if it's not legit to talk about it here for one reason or another, please let me know or do not respond at all OR send me a PM....sorry, but I don't know all the rules yet and I tried to search other threads but couldn't find anything. Anyway, the reason I'm asking is b/c I'm having a hard time really understanding what this product is. It says that it doens't contain CS, bleach, peroxide, and that it is an antibacterial product but I'm wondering if it's an antibiotic like Angel Eyes. I'd like to know a bit more about it before purchasing and am wondering if anyone on here has used it? Again, if this topic is better discussed privately, I appreciate PM's from those that are familiar with it.

:ThankYou:


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## princessre

Another SM member's vet says that Porphyrin levels can be lowered naturally with fish. Just one of a million reasons why fish is great for pups, as well as humans!!


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## Nikki's Mom

Eye Envy didn't work for Nikki. It's not an antibiotic. If you buy it, you can call and ask for the ingredients. I seriously think it's boric acid and maybe colloidial silver. But it didn't work for Nikki.


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## jodublin

I think the boric powder will work for you ,try this: mix 1tbsp each of boric powder and filtered water add some corn flour [corn starch] and mix untill you have a paste ,wash your baby's face and towel dry ,then add the paste with a childs tooth brush ,it will dry out so can be brushed out after a couple of hours .
stains will come back after a few weeks so you may need to do this again .Best of luck :wub:


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## almitra

I'm hoping mine outgrow it also, though I don't think it's too much of an issue for either of them at this point.


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## Kitkat

jodublin said:


> I think the boric powder will work for you ,try this: mix 1tbsp each of boric powder and filtered water add some corn flour [corn starch] and mix untill you have a paste ,wash your baby's face and towel dry ,then add the paste with a childs tooth brush ,it will dry out so can be brushed out after a couple of hours .
> stains will come back after a few weeks so you may need to do this again .Best of luck :wub:


I wonder where I would find Boric Acid in the states?

Would you have to be extra careful to not get it in the eye? Does it sting?


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## pinkpixie1588

I got Boric Acid at Rite Aid. I think it's at any pharmacy.


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## Kitkat

Nikki's Mom said:


> Eye Envy didn't work for Nikki. It's not an antibiotic. If you buy it, you can call and ask for the ingredients. I seriously think it's boric acid and maybe colloidial silver. But it didn't work for Nikki.



Thanks Niki's Mom...colloidial silver? That doesn't sound too good...will google.
BTW, I've been cleaning the eye area with the eye wash you recommend...still waiting for the spa lavish facial scrub. He's not very cooperative though when it comes to his eye/face area which makes things challenging...


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## Kitkat

pinkpixie1588 said:


> I got Boric Acid at Rite Aid. I think it's at any pharmacy.


I seriously didn't know :blush: Thanks!


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## Rocky's Mom

Here he is after I clipped his eye area and gave him a bath. This is the best I could do....I'm ordering the Spa Lavish and trying the cornstarch. I had bought Angel Eyes and never used it after I found out exactly what it is....ahhhh the money I've wasted, LOL.


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## Rocky's Mom

Rocky loves salmon....and talapia!


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## Kitkat

Rocky's Mom said:


> Here he is after I clipped his eye area and gave him a bath. This is the best I could do....I'm ordering the Spa Lavish and trying the cornstarch. I had bought Angel Eyes and never used it after I found out exactly what it is....ahhhh the money I've wasted, LOL.



OMG He's absolutely stunning. Where are the stains?? I mean I know you say you clipped them but I would think you could still tell. 
Have you seen my puppy?? I know he's still little and that it's typical but of course we're all going to try and help them look as best as they can but my pup seems hopeless for now. I can't bring myself to try to clip though b/c he's just too crazy when it comes to the eye area. 
Rocky is absolutely beautiful. I don't see any stains.


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## Nikki's Mom

Kitkat said:


> Thanks Niki's Mom...colloidial silver? That doesn't sound too good...will google.
> BTW, I've been cleaning the eye area with the eye wash you recommend...still waiting for the spa lavish facial scrub. He's not very cooperative though when it comes to his eye/face area which makes things challenging...


Well, I don't know if that is what is in there, I'm really guessing. Colloidial Silver is an anti bacterial and used under the eyes it is harmless. I've used it before. Using it in the eyes is tricky.

Nikki hates her facials, lol. But she puts up with them because she gets a very special treat we reserve for after her grooming. (Dried Wild Salmon) So she knows if she is a good girl, and lets me groom her face, she'll get her special salmon treat.


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## Rocky's Mom

Oh thank you so much!! :wub:




Kitkat said:


> OMG He's absolutely stunning. Where are the stains?? I mean I know you say you clipped them but I would think you could still tell.
> Have you seen my puppy?? I know he's still little and that it's typical but of course we're all going to try and help them look as best as they can but my pup seems hopeless for now. I can't bring myself to try to clip though b/c he's just too crazy when it comes to the eye area.
> Rocky is absolutely beautiful. I don't see any stains.


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## Tina

This is a pet peeve for me. The more I learn the more frustrating it is. It seems to happen with animals with the third eye lid. Something to do with the drainage system. They found out years ago that Tetracycline, Tylan and other similar antibiotics in low doses bind with the porphorins and prevents the enzyme from oxidizing and turning the rusty color and staining the coat. On the same note it is considered using antibiotics in an inappropriate manner. 
What would be great is to figure out what else chemically would bind with the enzyme that isn't an antibiotic. I do think that applying Terramycin ointment in the inner corner of the eye should help with this.
Eye Envy when you smell it smells like witch hazel. I think it is an astringent. If you use witch hazel on the staining it removes the staining in the same way that Eye Envy does. You can buy witch hazel without alcohol, but it is expensive and hard to find. 
Using Boric Acid mixed into distilled water does the same thing as eye envy. You mix 3 tablespoons of Boric Acid to one cup boiled distilled water. Apply to the face daily. It will remove the staining in the same manner as eye envy. You can buy Boric Acid at any Pharmacy.


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## Nikki's Mom

If these are the major causes of staining:
_*a.) inward rolling of the eyelid (called entropion) causing hairs to contact the corneal surface, excess tear production and often corneal irritation and damage
b.) outward rolling of the lower eyelids (called ectropion) permitting the tears to spill over onto the face
c.) blocked or undeveloped tear duct openings in the medial (nasal side) corners of the eye lids
d.) distichiasis… hairs that grow in an abnormal place or at an abnormal angle
e.) infection in or blocked lacrimal drainage channel (called dacryocystitis) that leads from the eyelid into the nasal cavity
f.) anatomical abnormalities that bunch up and constrict the structures of the nasal side of the eye socket tissues
g.) irritating foreign body in the eye

* 
_Then a dog would never get rid of them until those issues are treated/corrected, right?

Then how does that explain why tear stains sometimes just go away on their own? I haven't taken Nikki to an eye doctor, but her tear stains are virtually gone now. If she had any of the above things wrong with her eyes, she should still have staining... It's confusing.


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## tamizami

i think an antibiotic is used to treat (e). eye rinses like collyrium and trimming inner corner hairs are used to treat (g). and if you put a dog on tylan or other antibiotic, that will not get rid of the stains but might clear up an underlying infection and after a time, the stains eventually grow out.


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## MalteseJane

I don't have an answer either. All I know is that all the products on the market don't work. Changing the water or food is a myth. They don't work either. The only thing that works is an antibiotic. The explanation of my vet in Houston is close to the one posted here. When you give the antibiotic you change the chemical make up of the tears. There still will be tearing, but since the chemical composition is changed with the antibiotic, the wet hair will not oxidize in contact with air and you won't have that rust color. I attach a picture of Alex from 2000. He was almost 3 years old at the time. You can see it was pretty bad. That's why I finally decided to go with the antibiotic. My vet prescribed Panamycin drops. I not even gave him the prescribed dosage and it still did the trick. A few years later he came down with thrombocetopenia and was put on prednisone for about 6 months. I did not want to mix the antibiotic used only for cosmetic purpose with the steroid and stopped the Panamycin. After the 6 months when we stopped the prednisone the tear stains did not return to warrant giving the antibiotic again. He still is almost stain free, you can barely see it. So why did he suddenly stop staining after the prednisone ? I have no idea.
As you can see, it is really bad.
View attachment 86889


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## puppymom

princessre said:


> Another SM member's vet says that Porphyrin levels can be lowered naturally with fish. Just one of a million reasons why fish is great for pups, as well as humans!!


I was feeding my older pup salmon and rice and was told by my Vet that the lack of meat could cause pigment problems so I switched food. He had tear staining on Salmon as well as chicken.


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## puppymom

Tina said:


> This is a pet peeve for me. The more I learn the more frustrating it is. It seems to happen with animals with the third eye lid. Something to do with the drainage system. They found out years ago that Tetracycline, Tylan and other similar antibiotics in low doses bind with the porphorins and prevents the enzyme from oxidizing and turning the rusty color and staining the coat. On the same note it is considered using antibiotics in an inappropriate manner.
> What would be great is to figure out what else chemically would bind with the enzyme that isn't an antibiotic. I do think that applying Terramycin ointment in the inner corner of the eye should help with this.
> Eye Envy when you smell it smells like witch hazel. I think it is an astringent. *If you use witch hazel on the staining it removes the staining in the same way that Eye Envy does. You can buy witch hazel without alcohol, but it is expensive and hard to find.*
> Using Boric Acid mixed into distilled water does the same thing as eye envy. You mix 3 tablespoons of Boric Acid to one cup boiled distilled water. Apply to the face daily. It will remove the staining in the same manner as eye envy. You can buy Boric Acid at any Pharmacy.


Tina, 
I googled "witch hazel without alcohol" and got alot of returns for witch hazel WITH aloe vera. Would that work?


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## princessre

puppymom said:


> I was feeding my older pup salmon and rice and was told by my Vet that the lack of meat could cause pigment problems so I switched food. He had tear staining on Salmon as well as chicken.


I have never heard of pigment problems with feeding fish-- neither of my two have pigment problems. But I know that grains also worsen staining, so I personally would not feed rice with salmon... I would feed veggies with salmon.

Bijou had bad staining when she arrived. Now, four months later, her face is completely white. I was very hard core about it, though.....I didn't just change one thing at a time. I did all these at the same time:

1. Give 2 weeks course Tylan (1/8 tsp per day)
2. Fed home cooked wild fish with organic veggies. No chicken, beef, venison, etc. Absolutely no grains.
3. Fed home baked wild salmon, yogurt, and fruits for treats. No commercial treats. 
4. Gave only spring water
5. Washed and dried face twice a day with Spa Lavish
6. Rinsed eyes twice daily with B&L

After the two weeks Tylan, we continued with 2-6, except occasionally I rotated home baked chicken or turkey as treats. Her staining has never come back. I think she must have had some sort of low grade bacterial infection in general....as everything about her seemed so much healthier after the two week course...her poo, her tearing, her breath....By the way, Bijou gave the tear staining to Casanova (YES, pups can give it to each other) which is what lit the fire under my bum. Both are ice white now. So personally speaking, it was absolutely worthwhile to do the 2 week course. I would be much more concerned about giving Tylan for more than 2 weeks, but to me it helped Bijou in many aspects of her health, not just her staining. Do I know that her staining would NOT have gone away if I fed chicken or beef? I don't know for sure. But I knew I was not willing to repeat the 2 week course, so I felt I was maximizing my chances with the fish given its purported ability to lower porphyrin. Wild fish is the best, most highly digestible protein for dogs or humans anyhow. Hope that helps!


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## pinkpixie1588

princessre said:


> I have never heard of pigment problems with feeding fish-- neither of my two have pigment problems. But I know that grains also worsen staining, so I personally would not feed rice with salmon... I would feed veggies with salmon.
> 
> Bijou had bad staining when she arrived. Now, four months later, her face is completely white. I was very hard core about it, though.....I didn't just change one thing at a time. I did all these at the same time:
> 
> 1. Give 2 weeks course Tylan (1/8 tsp per day)
> 2. Fed home cooked wild fish with organic veggies. No chicken, beef, venison, etc. Absolutely no grains.
> 3. Fed home baked wild salmon, yogurt, and fruits for treats. No commercial treats.
> 4. Gave only spring water
> 5. Washed and dried face twice a day with Spa Lavish
> 6. Rinsed eyes twice daily with B&L
> 
> After the two weeks Tylan, we continued with 2-6, except occasionally I rotated home baked chicken or turkey as treats. Her staining has never come back. I think she must have had some sort of low grade bacterial infection in general....as everything about her seemed so much healthier after the two week course...her poo, her tearing, her breath....By the way, Bijou gave the tear staining to Casanova (YES, pups can give it to each other) which is what lit the fire under my bum. Both are ice white now. So personally speaking, it was absolutely worthwhile to do the 2 week course. I would be much more concerned about giving Tylan for more than 2 weeks, but to me it helped Bijou in many aspects of her health, not just her staining. Do I know that her staining would NOT have gone away if I fed chicken or beef? I don't know for sure. But I knew I was not willing to repeat the 2 week course, so I felt I was maximizing my chances with the fish given its purported ability to lower porphyrin. Wild fish is the best, most highly digestible protein for dogs or humans anyhow. Hope that helps!


When I talked to the vet about Tylan, he said it was usually used for larger breed dogs, so the 1/8 tsp dosage is meant for 50 lbs of weight. He said in order to use it on Leila, he would have to send it out to be 'diluted' with some other inert ingredients in order to make the dosage correct. I guess you didn't have any problems with the 1/8 tsp with Bijou? Or was it already 'diluted'? I really want to deal with the staining before it gets worse, but I'm not getting a lot of cooperation from this vet.


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## princessre

pinkpixie1588 said:


> When I talked to the vet about Tylan, he said it was usually used for larger breed dogs, so the 1/8 tsp dosage is meant for 50 lbs of weight. He said in order to use it on Leila, he would have to send it out to be 'diluted' with some other inert ingredients in order to make the dosage correct. I guess you didn't have any problems with the 1/8 tsp with Bijou? Or was it already 'diluted'? I really want to deal with the staining before it gets worse, but I'm not getting a lot of cooperation from this vet.


I did not dilute the 1/8 tsp. I actually asked three separate vets. One said 1/8 tsp once a day. The other said 1/20 tsp 2 or 3 times a day. The third said "a pinch." The first two worked out to approximately the same thing. Bijou had absolutely no problem with it.


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## iheartbisou

What does a "pinch" work out to be, approximately? Also is the 'pinch' once a day as well?


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## Nikki's Mom

You can buy TYLAN at Cal Vet Supply online. I used A TOTAL of 1/16 of a teaspoon per day, broken up into 2 doses for 10 days, about 1 year ago.


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## pinkpixie1588

Nikki's Mom said:


> You can buy TYLAN at Cal Vet Supply online. I used A TOTAL of 1/16 of a teaspoon per day, broken up into 2 doses for 10 days, about 1 year ago.


I looked it up. It looks like there are different strengths..? Tylan 50, Tylan 200..? Which one did you use?


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## princessre

pinkpixie1588 said:


> I looked it up. It looks like there are different strengths..? Tylan 50, Tylan 200..? Which one did you use?


I threw away the first small bottle from the vet, so I don't know about that one. I bought a second bottle, but it's out at the house. I can look for you this weekend...but Nikki's Mom or someone else may be able to tell you in the meantime.


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## Nikki's Mom

The one I bought from Cal Vet Supply was Tylan 40.


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## pinkpixie1588

Perfect. That's what I needed to know. I'll be ordering soon  Thanks!!


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## daryl

There seems to be conflicting explanations, about the causes of tear staining and the cures, coming in part from the makers of the otc dog and cat tear staining products.

For example Angels Eyes and the other tylosin based products work because they kill the bacteria and not just because "they tie up porphyrins". Being a cynic I think that they explain the process that way so that they do not have to mention the antibiotics- most users seem unaware of the antibiotic and would look for alternatives if they knew the truth. 

I believe that the iron based porphyrins enter the tears and react with the naturally occuring bacteria once the iron starts to oxidise. This metabolism of the iron porphyrins creates the enzyme that is the building block of a red yeast.

This means that the stains are not just the result of uv light changing the colour of the porphyrins but also yeast, it seems likely that the yeast is red because of the uv light changing properties of the porphyrins.

Were the red tear stains the result of porphyrins only then there would not be any smell at all, many owners complain about a musty smell, ie yeast smell.

The tylosin based products work not because they magically tie up the porphyrins but because they kill the bacteria and prevent the creation of the yeast enzyme.

As stated elsewhere there are wider issues regarding the use of antibiotics. OTC makers brush aside the risk of bacterial resistance on the grounds that tylosin is rarely used for dogs. This is true but their answer is disingenuous.

Tylosin is only approved for live stock, *Tylosin is not approved for use in dogs or cats* . The makers Eli Lilly (aka Elanco) never paid to test the long term use of tylosin on dogs. Such tests would have been very expensive and they would have been unlikely to recoup their costs. 

ONLY vets are allowed to prescribe Tylosin- this is done under the EXTRA LABEL RULE. The vet must demonstrate that they have tried approved medicines first before prescribing tylosin. This is why many will not prescribe tylosin for dog or cat tear stains, others refuse to on moral grounds.

All of the tylosin based OTC products are illegal and many of them try to mislead the public by; not being upfront about the antibiotic, saying that the ingredients are FDA approved (even though they are not approved for the target market,ie dogs and cats), they say that they are safe (they might be- who knows though- there has not been official research), they say that their products are not medicines (this is not true- they are deemed to be medicines as they change the physiology of the dogs and cats), finally they know that it is illegal to use antibiotics without a prescription.

Please do not think that I am bashing anyone for using tylosin. I used to use Angels Eyes until it was outlawed in Europe. It was after the ban that I started to look into the subject of stains and for safe and natural alternatives.

There are a handful of natural products that work as well as tylosin, albeit slightly slower.

These work by oxidising the iron inside the body before it enters the tears (or saliva). once the iron is oxidised the bacteria is unable to metabolise the iron and hence has no "food" to enable it to multiply or produce the red yeast enzyme.

I have been using Angels Delight by Bichon hotel for a couple of years and I am very happy with it and with the added health benefits.

An alternative product that friends with larger dogs use is NaturVet Tear Stain Supplement. 

I also know some people that use Apple Cider Vinegar- according to my understanding of the red yeast this works by changing the ph value of the tears. The bacteria is unable to metabolise the stains once the ph value has changed and become slightly more acidic.

I also agree that diet plays an extremely important role. Switching to grain free kibble or RAW has helped many. 

Hope this helps.


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## princessre

daryl said:


> There seems to be conflicting explanations, about the causes of tear staining and the cures, coming in part from the makers of the otc dog and cat tear staining products.
> 
> For example Angels Eyes and the other tylosin based products work because they kill the bacteria and not just because "they tie up porphyrins". Being a cynic I think that they explain the process that way so that they do not have to mention the antibiotics- most users seem unaware of the antibiotic and would look for alternatives if they knew the truth.
> 
> I believe that the iron based porphyrins enter the tears and react with the naturally occuring bacteria once the iron starts to oxidise. This metabolism of the iron porphyrins creates the enzyme that is the building block of a red yeast.
> 
> This means that the stains are not just the result of uv light changing the colour of the porphyrins but also yeast, it seems likely that the yeast is red because of the uv light changing properties of the porphyrins.
> 
> Were the red tear stains the result of porphyrins only then there would not be any smell at all, many owners complain about a musty smell, ie yeast smell.
> 
> The tylosin based products work not because they magically tie up the porphyrins but because they kill the bacteria and prevent the creation of the yeast enzyme.
> 
> As stated elsewhere there are wider issues regarding the use of antibiotics. OTC makers brush aside the risk of bacterial resistance on the grounds that tylosin is rarely used for dogs. This is true but their answer is disingenuous.
> 
> Tylosin is only approved for live stock, *Tylosin is not approved for use in dogs or cats* . The makers Eli Lilly (aka Elanco) never paid to test the long term use of tylosin on dogs. Such tests would have been very expensive and they would have been unlikely to recoup their costs.
> 
> ONLY vets are allowed to prescribe Tylosin- this is done under the EXTRA LABEL RULE. The vet must demonstrate that they have tried approved medicines first before prescribing tylosin. This is why many will not prescribe tylosin for dog or cat tear stains, others refuse to on moral grounds.
> 
> All of the tylosin based OTC products are illegal and many of them try to mislead the public by; not being upfront about the antibiotic, saying that the ingredients are FDA approved (even though they are not approved for the target market,ie dogs and cats), they say that they are safe (they might be- who knows though- there has not been official research), they say that their products are not medicines (this is not true- they are deemed to be medicines as they change the physiology of the dogs and cats), finally they know that it is illegal to use antibiotics without a prescription.
> 
> Please do not think that I am bashing anyone for using tylosin. I used to use Angels Eyes until it was outlawed in Europe. It was after the ban that I started to look into the subject of stains and for safe and natural alternatives.
> 
> There are a handful of natural products that work as well as tylosin, albeit slightly slower.
> 
> These work by oxidising the iron inside the body before it enters the tears (or saliva). once the iron is oxidised the bacteria is unable to metabolise the iron and hence has no "food" to enable it to multiply or produce the red yeast enzyme.
> 
> I have been using Angels Delight by Bichon hotel for a couple of years and I am very happy with it and with the added health benefits.
> 
> An alternative product that friends with larger dogs use is NaturVet Tear Stain Supplement.
> 
> I also know some people that use Apple Cider Vinegar- according to my understanding of the red yeast this works by changing the ph value of the tears. The bacteria is unable to metabolise the stains once the ph value has changed and become slightly more acidic.
> 
> I also agree that diet plays an extremely important role. Switching to grain free kibble or RAW has helped many.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I think most people on SM actually already agree with you, that one should be more conservative than less when it comes to antibiotics. I'm pretty sure most people realize that Tylan is an antibiotic, though. (I brought up porphyrin to recommend the use of fish also.) I think everyone should definitely seek the advice of their vet and also do their own research and make that decision for themselves based on their own situation with their dogs. Alot of dogs do get prescribed a miniscule amount of Tylan EVERYDAY for otherwise incurable IBD. I'm not condoning or encouraging this as we have not had to deal with IBD and don't know what that entails, but for us it effectively nipped a problem in the bud very early on. We did the very SHORT 2 week course under the advice of a vet who gave the Tylan to us in the first place, and have never had the problem again. Everyone should weigh the costs and benefits for themselves under the guidance of their own vet, as always.


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## Tina

daryl said:


> There seems to be conflicting explanations, about the causes of tear staining and the cures, coming in part from the makers of the otc dog and cat tear staining products.
> 
> For example Angels Eyes and the other tylosin based products work because they kill the bacteria and not just because "they tie up porphyrins". Being a cynic I think that they explain the process that way so that they do not have to mention the antibiotics- most users seem unaware of the antibiotic and would look for alternatives if they knew the truth.
> 
> I believe that the iron based porphyrins enter the tears and react with the naturally occuring bacteria once the iron starts to oxidise. This metabolism of the iron porphyrins creates the enzyme that is the building block of a red yeast.
> 
> This means that the stains are not just the result of uv light changing the colour of the porphyrins but also yeast, it seems likely that the yeast is red because of the uv light changing properties of the porphyrins.
> 
> Were the red tear stains the result of porphyrins only then there would not be any smell at all, many owners complain about a musty smell, ie yeast smell.
> 
> The tylosin based products work not because they magically tie up the porphyrins but because they kill the bacteria and prevent the creation of the yeast enzyme.
> 
> As stated elsewhere there are wider issues regarding the use of antibiotics. OTC makers brush aside the risk of bacterial resistance on the grounds that tylosin is rarely used for dogs. This is true but their answer is disingenuous.
> 
> Tylosin is only approved for live stock, *Tylosin is not approved for use in dogs or cats* . The makers Eli Lilly (aka Elanco) never paid to test the long term use of tylosin on dogs. Such tests would have been very expensive and they would have been unlikely to recoup their costs.
> 
> ONLY vets are allowed to prescribe Tylosin- this is done under the EXTRA LABEL RULE. The vet must demonstrate that they have tried approved medicines first before prescribing tylosin. This is why many will not prescribe tylosin for dog or cat tear stains, others refuse to on moral grounds.
> 
> All of the tylosin based OTC products are illegal and many of them try to mislead the public by; not being upfront about the antibiotic, saying that the ingredients are FDA approved (even though they are not approved for the target market,ie dogs and cats), they say that they are safe (they might be- who knows though- there has not been official research), they say that their products are not medicines (this is not true- they are deemed to be medicines as they change the physiology of the dogs and cats), finally they know that it is illegal to use antibiotics without a prescription.
> 
> Please do not think that I am bashing anyone for using tylosin. I used to use Angels Eyes until it was outlawed in Europe. It was after the ban that I started to look into the subject of stains and for safe and natural alternatives.
> 
> There are a handful of natural products that work as well as tylosin, albeit slightly slower.
> 
> These work by oxidising the iron inside the body before it enters the tears (or saliva). once the iron is oxidised the bacteria is unable to metabolise the iron and hence has no "food" to enable it to multiply or produce the red yeast enzyme.
> 
> I have been using Angels Delight by Bichon hotel for a couple of years and I am very happy with it and with the added health benefits.
> 
> An alternative product that friends with larger dogs use is NaturVet Tear Stain Supplement.
> 
> I also know some people that use Apple Cider Vinegar- according to my understanding of the red yeast this works by changing the ph value of the tears. The bacteria is unable to metabolise the stains once the ph value has changed and become slightly more acidic.
> 
> I also agree that diet plays an extremely important role. Switching to grain free kibble or RAW has helped many.
> 
> Hope this helps.


 
Tylan does not require a veterinarian's prescription in the US. It is not approved for dogs or cats, it was originally prescribed for repiratory problems in turkeys. You can buy it at Farm Stores. It comes in powder and liquid injection form. In dogs the powder form is used. In the US Angels eyes and other products with Tylan is legal. 
I talked to my vet about the possiblilty of the tears being caused by yeast and she stated to me, that it was not caused by yeast, but that when the dogs face stays wet it becomes a breeding ground for yeast to form. And all my research says that porphyrins is not caused by yeast but the oxidation of the enzyme when it is exposed to oxygen. Porphyrins is: Porphyrin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One thing I noticed is that the only time you come on is when you are answering about tear staining and recommend Angels Delight. 
Angels delight dog and cat tear stain remover
Not all of your information about porphyrins is correct.
Not trying to stir trouble, just an observation.


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## Hunter's Mom

Hunter and I have tried a variety of 'cures' for his tearing and he talks about them on his blog. We haven't written all the entries yet but the first two are up. His issue is a structural one so he will always have tearing - but if I really stay on top of it the stains don't always appear


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## daryl

Hi Tina

I guess the length of my post might have obscured what I was trying to say.

I did not say that tears are caused by yeast. I said that the yeast was formed by the oxidisation of the iron in the tears, which is what you have just said that your vet told you.

With regard to the legality of the tylosin products- I emailed the FDA when Angels Eyes was banned in the UK- it was the FDA that told me that such products are illegal in the USA. I was further told by Elanco that such products would probably be illegal on a number of levels.

I have since seen confirmation of this elsewhere. eg the following quote

*"Tylosin tartrate is **labeled by the FDA** for OTC use in food animals. When it comes to use in dogs and cats, the FDA notes federal law restricts this drug to use by or on the order of a licensed veterinarian. This drug should not be sold OTC for pets. Period. Loopholes in the supplement labeling system allow companies like the manufacturers of Angels’ Eyes to sneak around FDA regulations with the disclaimer: These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. This disclaimer does not make the act of dispensing this drug legal, it merely allows the manufacturer to make the product without going through the expensive and arduous process of FDA approval. Because the FDA typically has bigger fish to fry, companies like this cruise under the radar."*

source: VMDiva | Tear Stain Products: More than Meets the Eye

I accept that I might be wrong (I often am) but I would be extremely surprised if any nation state would allow the use of antibiotics without prior approval by a vet where that antibiotic is to be used in a way not permitted by the authorities in that state. Surely this is counter intuitive.


I agree with you that many of the members here are aware that these products contain an antibiotic, that said, I have seen owners that have advocated the use of beef to clear up stains simply because Angels eyes uses beef.

I recommend Angels Delight because I use it and know that it works for me. I did try to be helpfull and balanced by recommending competing natural products. I hope you would agree that the best way to convince owners not to use tylosin based products is by offering them natural alternatives.

I dont only answer tear stain questions but it is true that most of my answers are tear stain related. I have spent dozens of hours looking into the subject. The more time I spend looking the more annoyed I get with the tylosin otc firms who, IMHO, are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of owners. I was afterall one of those that used these products not knowing that they are antibiotic based. I was pretty annoyed when I found out- not because of the antibiotic but because the makers tried to hide the fact from me.

For example the following product tries to look like a natural product, indeed it has many of the ingredients in Angels Delight

Tear Stain Remover in an All Natural Base with Vitamin Supplements for pets

Please have a look and tell me how long it takes you to see that it is tylosin based. More worryingly they tell you to use it continually. From the FAQ it would seem that it is safe to use during pregnancy.

Would you use tylosin during pregnancy? I guess that as a responsible and informed owner you wouldn't. There will however be newer owners that might because they are not aware of the risks.

With regard to me being misinformed about porphyrins please let me know where you think that I am incorrect and I will try to address the (vast) holes in my knowledge. There are many articles that say that the stains are soley down to porphyrins acting on their own, all of these articles seem to be wiki articles by people selling Angels Eyes. If that were the case then surely a porphyrin enriched tear would change colour one its own, on for example, on a tissue, afterall the uv light would react in the same way. the bulk of prophyrin research seems to be rat related and suggests that rats with prophyrin stains are failing to groom themselves sufficiently. Any dog owner with tear stains will confirm that even if the dog were able to lick the tear stains they would not be removed. Hence I subscribe to the principle that the stains are yeast based, possibly red in colour because of the porpyrins rather than the stains being red just because of the porphyrins.

It is not my intention to try to come across as an authority (which I am not) on the use of antibiotics but I do believe that if there are safer alternatives then owners should at least explore them and be told ablout them.



if I have caused offence then I unreservedly offer my apologies.

regards


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## Rocky's Mom

Hi! I bought the eye wash. Can you explain how you do it and how much to put in each eye? Thanks!!!



Nikki's Mom said:


> I know that this is a non-answer, but the best thing you can do is to keep his face clean and dry and be patient until he is 1.
> 
> My Nikki had horrible tear stains when she was a puppy and it bothered me a lot. People actually said nasty things to me about her appearance. As if I could prevent them.
> 
> But now they are virtually gone. When she had them, we had a daily routine. We checked to make sure there were no hairs in her eyes, used a gentle eye wash, then washed the face and beard with Spa Lavish facial scrub, dried, and then combed cornstarch or baking soda through the hair to keep the area clean and dry, then we brushed her teeth.
> 
> We still do the same routine ever other day, even though there are no tear stains anymore. (We don't need the cornstarch/baking soda anymore)
> 
> Hope this helps.


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## pinkpixie1588

Rocky's Mom said:


> Hi! I bought the eye wash. Can you explain how you do it and how much to put in each eye? Thanks!!!


I'd like to hear advice on this, too. I got the eyewash over a month ago. Leila seems absolutely terrified of it and it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep her still for it, even with two people. I got it in her eyes a few times after much struggle. I get way more of it on her face than in her actual eye. She looks genuinely terrified when it comes out and squirms like she's fighting for her life, so I gave up.


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## princessre

pinkpixie1588 said:


> I'd like to hear advice on this, too. I got the eyewash over a month ago. Leila seems absolutely terrified of it and it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep her still for it, even with two people. I got it in her eyes a few times after much struggle. I get way more of it on her face than in her actual eye. She looks genuinely terrified when it comes out and squirms like she's fighting for her life, so I gave up.


I put the fluff in my lap on his/her back. I start by rubbing their tummy so they relax. I open the eye with one hand, and flush for several seconds with the eyewash with the other hand. Then I keep the eye open for 5-10 seconds while they move their eyeballs around so the eyewash really gets in there. (When they move the eyeballs around say TREAT.) If you keep doing this, they actually like this "game." :thumbsup:


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## Rocky's Mom

Do you put a few drops in each eye...do you use the cup? Thanks!



princessre said:


> I put the fluff in my lap on his/her back. I start by rubbing their tummy so they relax. I open the eye with one hand, and flush for several seconds with the eyewash with the other hand. Then I keep the eye open for 5-10 seconds while they move their eyeballs around so the eyewash really gets in there. (When they move the eyeballs around say TREAT.) If you keep doing this, they actually like this "game." :thumbsup:


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## Rocky's Mom

I'll let you know how Rocky does...I have a feeling he's not going to like it one bit!:mellow:



pinkpixie1588 said:


> I'd like to hear advice on this, too. I got the eyewash over a month ago. Leila seems absolutely terrified of it and it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep her still for it, even with two people. I got it in her eyes a few times after much struggle. I get way more of it on her face than in her actual eye. She looks genuinely terrified when it comes out and squirms like she's fighting for her life, so I gave up.


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## princessre

Rocky's Mom said:


> Do you put a few drops in each eye...do you use the cup? Thanks!


I do not use the cup. I use much more than a few drops in order to flush out any foreign matter...They will not like it in the beginning, but they could learn to with treats and massages!


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## pinkpixie1588

Sophia, do you remember how you got them to go along with this in the beginning? You make it sound so easy! Did they not struggle very much even when you first started? Leila is extremely strong willed, so it's getting to the point where she stays still long enough to GET the treat that I'm worried about...


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## princessre

pinkpixie1588 said:


> Sophia, do you remember how you got them to go along with this in the beginning? You make it sound so easy! Did they not struggle very much even when you first started? Leila is extremely strong willed, so it's getting to the point where she stays still long enough to GET the treat that I'm worried about...


Is Leila trained to lie on her back for grooming, etc.? It's better if you're on a sofa with your legs up on a coffee table...so she feels more propped up on her back. In the beginning they were a little squirmy. But if you are determined and you do it quick, they should let you. If it doesn't work, just do it every hour until they think it's boring. For me, anything they didn't want me to do (like clip their nails), I would do it several times a day until they didn't care anymore.


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## pinkpixie1588

Yep, Leila sits on her back without a problem for combing, grooming her face, etc. She doesn't mind being on her back as long as she is on my lap. She wont do it on the couch, though. It did take some practice to get the nail clipping so she'd accept it, but that was a little easier since there are lots of positions you can manage clipping nails. 

I just don't want to hold her down on her back while I'm trying to do the eye stuff to the point where she becomes traumatized and wont let me do that anymore. I'll give it a shot, though


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## Rocky's Mom

Thanks....we did it! Wasn't bad at all. 
I love your pics of Bijou and Casanova! They are both beautiful!!!




princessre said:


> I do not use the cup. I use much more than a few drops in order to flush out any foreign matter...They will not like it in the beginning, but they could learn to with treats and massages!


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## Rocky's Mom

How did it go Ashley? I love Leila's new siggy!!!



pinkpixie1588 said:


> Yep, Leila sits on her back without a problem for combing, grooming her face, etc. She doesn't mind being on her back as long as she is on my lap. She wont do it on the couch, though. It did take some practice to get the nail clipping so she'd accept it, but that was a little easier since there are lots of positions you can manage clipping nails.
> 
> I just don't want to hold her down on her back while I'm trying to do the eye stuff to the point where she becomes traumatized and wont let me do that anymore. I'll give it a shot, though


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## Rocky's Mom

I never dreamed I'd get this much support...I am trying the Spa Lavish, when I order it and get it...and the eye wash and the cornstarch. I so appreciate you all!!! Thank you so much!


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## Kitkat

I feel your pain. I want to do this with Snowy but 1st and foremost, I need to hide the bottle from him and it seems I can't do this as he recognizes the smell? Is that even possible, I ask? Anyway, he squirms, jolts, and jumps like I'm preparing to have him for dinner or something. It's frustrating and then I don't want him to fall off of my lap but I had to stop the other day b/c I was afraid of breaking something from holding him down. I even tried the treats a couple of times and he stops just in time to eat and then starts with the squirming again. I will press on though as I want him to get used to eye drops for eyewashing.
On another note, I tried the Spa Lavish Facial Scrub....yey, I absolutely loved it and yes, he did squirm and I got all wet too - LOL - but the face is much easier then trying to get something into the eye. 

P.S. Curious about when those that have chosen to use the antibiotic based products for tear-staining start? Did you wait until they were a certain age or did you use it during puppyhood? and at what age exactly?


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## princessre

Kitkat said:


> I feel your pain. I want to do this with Snowy but 1st and foremost, I need to hide the bottle from him and it seems I can't do this as he recognizes the smell? Is that even possible, I ask? Anyway, he squirms, jolts, and jumps like I'm preparing to have him for dinner or something. It's frustrating and then I don't want him to fall off of my lap but I had to stop the other day b/c I was afraid of breaking something from holding him down. I even tried the treats a couple of times and he stops just in time to eat and then starts with the squirming again. I will press on though as I want him to get used to eye drops for eyewashing.
> On another note, I tried the Spa Lavish Facial Scrub....yey, I absolutely loved it and yes, he did squirm and I got all wet too - LOL - but the face is much easier then trying to get something into the eye.
> 
> P.S. Curious about when those that have chosen to use the antibiotic based products for tear-staining start? Did you wait until they were a certain age or did you use it during puppyhood? and at what age exactly?


Good job!! Keep on keeping on with the eyewash! 
I think you have to wait until your pup's adult teeth are in, or they will turn yellow from the Tylan.


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## Kitkat

pinkpixie1588 said:


> Sophia, do you remember how you got them to go along with this in the beginning? You make it sound so easy! Did they not struggle very much even when you first started? Leila is extremely strong willed, so it's getting to the point where she stays still long enough to GET the treat that I'm worried about...





Rocky's Mom said:


> Thanks....we did it! Wasn't bad at all.
> I love your pics of Bijou and Casanova! They are both beautiful!!!





pinkpixie1588 said:


> Yep, Leila sits on her back without a problem for combing, grooming her face, etc. She doesn't mind being on her back as long as she is on my lap. She wont do it on the couch, though. It did take some practice to get the nail clipping so she'd accept it, but that was a little easier since there are lots of positions you can manage clipping nails.
> 
> I just don't want to hold her down on her back while I'm trying to do the eye stuff to the point where she becomes traumatized and wont let me do that anymore. I'll give it a shot, though





princessre said:


> Good job!! Keep on keeping on with the eyewash!
> I think you have to wait until your pup's adult teeth are in, or they will turn yellow from the Tylan.


Oooo. Thanks for the info...right I had forgotten about this side-effect, mentioned by other SM'ers. I guess when they're pups all we can really do is try our best to keep up with the eyewashing and grooming. I'm currently trying to brush his puppy teeth too - this is a whole other story LOL - He is such a wild child, my baby boy. But I will not desist. What's really heartbreaking though is that after the grooming/eye poking he seems to not love me so much and either goes to his crate to sulk or runs to someone else and then looks at me from afar....this makes me want to cry, but someone's got to do the dirty work I suppose?


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## Rocky's Mom

How old is Snowy....he's soooo cute!!!!


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## CVW

I used to use Lecithin for Buddy's tear stains. It comes in a bag and looks like cous cous. I would sprinkle a spoonfull on his breakfast and dinner and it really did help.

I also noticed recently that his tear stains came back with a sore tooth, once the tooth was removed and a regimen on meds was given his tear stains went away again - not to mention the bad breath!

Hope that helps!


----------

