# Breeder Discussions



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Honestly, I wish all breeder discussion was banned from this forum. I may hold in the highest regard the same person that someone else sees as lower than pond scum. And anyone can come in with a fictitious name and spread evil. Which is what I believe happened today in a thread that has now been removed. No substance, no proof, purely an attempt to villefy someone. This same scenario happened this past July. Someone came in to ask about a particular breeder, said the dog she was interested in from that breeder was an 11 mo. old leg-lifter with missing pigment on its nose, said she had received pictures of the dog from the breeder, and said she made plans to meet the dog at the breeder's home that weekend. I happened to be on the phone with the particular breeder when I saw the post. She had no 11 mo. old dogs, let alone a pink-nosed leg-lifter for sale, had not emailed pictures to anyone, etc. This is a public forum. Good people can post here. Mean, rotten, nasty people can post here, too.

MaryH


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Dec 9 2009, 10:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860127


> Honestly, I wish all breeder discussion was banned from this forum. I may hold in the highest regard the same person that someone else sees as lower than pond scum. And anyone can come in with a fictitious name and spread evil. Which is what I believe happened today in a thread that has now been removed. No substance, no proof, purely an attempt to villefy someone. This same scenario happened this past July. Someone came in to ask about a particular breeder, said the dog she was interested in from that breeder was an 11 mo. old leg-lifter with missing pigment on its nose, said she had received pictures of the dog from the breeder, and said she made plans to meet the dog at the breeder's home that weekend. I happened to be on the phone with the particular breeder when I saw the post. She had no 11 mo. old dogs, let alone a pink-nosed leg-lifter for sale, had not emailed pictures to anyone, etc. This is a public forum. Good people can post here. *Mean, rotten, nasty people can post here, too.
> 
> *MaryH[/B]


Hopefully not for long. We nipped this one in the bud. :thumbsup:


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

Mary, I see your point. However, without (real) breeder discussions it places people that come to this forum who are not "in the know" at the mercy of searching the web, and hooking up with brokers, and BYB'ers - the very thing we are trying to prevent. Yes, there is scum out there that try to muck up our fine working community team, but they aren't here for long before they are outed. As an example, just the other night (Friday?) there was the same posting 3x's from "RonaldRex" - a very fresh newbie. I clicked on it and discovered it was in a foreign language so I translated it only to find it contained a link to porn amongst other things. I sent an email to "Contact Us" about it, and within 5 minutes it was gone, and by the next morning so was RonaldRex! :bysmilie: :chili: 

In short let us keep the communication open, and everyone be on guard for those with mayhem on their minds.


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

Yup, what she said!


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

I agree with both of you (at least in some way).  

Mary -- I agree that there are bad, rotten people out there that appear to have nothing better to do than be "nasty" to others.

Marsha -- I agree that we need to offer a place on SM where others can come for information on reputable breeders so that they don't hook up with puppy mills and bybs.

Don't know what the answer is -- just wish that the bad, rotten people weren't bad and rotten. :biggrin:


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

As with anything, you take some bad with the good. But overall, I think most people here would agree that the breeder discussions are very helpful to those seeking a new puppy. Personally, I know that the threads here led me to Bonnie Palmer, and I could not be happier with my Casanova. Not to mention that the mods here are very helpful in removing bogus posts.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (princessre @ Dec 9 2009, 06:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860262


> As with anything, you take some bad with the good. But overall, I think most people here would agree that the breeder discussions are very helpful to those seeking a new puppy. Personally, I know that the threads here led me to Bonnie Palmer, and I could not be happier with my Casanova. Not to mention that the mods here are very helpful in removing bogus posts.[/B]



I agree. And yes, of course, breeders need to be discussed. Good heavens, check out the breeders on the google ads at the top of this page.


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## notori (Mar 21, 2005)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Dec 9 2009, 01:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860127


> Honestly, I wish all breeder discussion was banned from this forum. I may hold in the highest regard the same person that someone else sees as lower than pond scum. And anyone can come in with a fictitious name and spread evil. Which is what I believe happened today in a thread that has now been removed. No substance, no proof, purely an attempt to villefy someone. This same scenario happened this past July. Someone came in to ask about a particular breeder, said the dog she was interested in from that breeder was an 11 mo. old leg-lifter with missing pigment on its nose, said she had received pictures of the dog from the breeder, and said she made plans to meet the dog at the breeder's home that weekend. I happened to be on the phone with the particular breeder when I saw the post. She had no 11 mo. old dogs, let alone a pink-nosed leg-lifter for sale, had not emailed pictures to anyone, etc. This is a public forum. Good people can post here. Mean, rotten, nasty people can post here, too.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


Mary,
Anytime you get a Forum going that does not require true names to be posted you will get people that can and will say anything. That being said, you also have people that will say negitive things about a breeder out of pure jealousy or there are comments about breeders that are regaurded in the hightest and yet there are serious questions about their breeding practices....hmmmm. The best thing to do for pet finders is to; do your homework, ask others that have delt with the particular breeder and so on.
Char


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## iheartbisou (Feb 13, 2007)

QUOTE (princessre @ Dec 10 2009, 07:05 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860262


> As with anything, you take some bad with the good. But overall, I think most people here would agree that the breeder discussions are very helpful to those seeking a new puppy. Personally, I know that the threads here led me to Bonnie Palmer, and I could not be happier with my Casanova. Not to mention that the mods here are very helpful in removing bogus posts.[/B]


I completely agree. Sadly, you have a few apples that try to ruin it for everyone. But the moderators do a good job finding these bad apples too. I don't think everyone else should be punished because of a few. 

Also, I came here to research breeders as well, to hear/read what others experiences had been. I think rumors and pure maliciousness should not be allowed (and doesn't that happen already? they get banned, don't they?) but actual, real breeder experiences should be allowed -100%.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I found Nikki's breeder through this forum and I couldn't be happier about that. I've learned a lot here. Yes, there are people who are out to hurt or do harm, but the world is full of them. This forum is mild compared to some I've been on in the past. People can get really crazy online because they don't have to stand up to people in person. It's sad, but that's the way of the world today.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE (notori @ Dec 9 2009, 03:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860278


> Mary,
> Anytime you get a Forum going that does not require true names to be posted you will get people that can and will say anything. That being said, you also have people that will say negitive things about a breeder out of pure jealousy or there are comments about breeders that are regaurded in the hightest and yet there are serious questions about their breeding practices....hmmmm. The best thing to do for pet finders is to; do your homework, ask others that have delt with the particular breeder and so on.
> Char[/B]


 :goodpost:


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## Snowball Pie's Mommi (Oct 16, 2008)

QUOTE (notori @ Dec 9 2009, 06:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860278


> QUOTE (MaryH @ Dec 9 2009, 01:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860127





> Honestly, I wish all breeder discussion was banned from this forum. I may hold in the highest regard the same person that someone else sees as lower than pond scum. And anyone can come in with a fictitious name and spread evil. Which is what I believe happened today in a thread that has now been removed. No substance, no proof, purely an attempt to villefy someone. This same scenario happened this past July. Someone came in to ask about a particular breeder, said the dog she was interested in from that breeder was an 11 mo. old leg-lifter with missing pigment on its nose, said she had received pictures of the dog from the breeder, and said she made plans to meet the dog at the breeder's home that weekend. I happened to be on the phone with the particular breeder when I saw the post. She had no 11 mo. old dogs, let alone a pink-nosed leg-lifter for sale, had not emailed pictures to anyone, etc. This is a public forum. Good people can post here. Mean, rotten, nasty people can post here, too.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


Mary,
Anytime you get a Forum going that does not require true names to be posted you will get people that can and will say anything. That being said, you also have people that will say negitive things about a breeder out of pure jealousy or there are comments about breeders that are regaurded in the hightest and yet there are serious questions about their breeding practices....hmmmm. The best thing to do for pet finders is to; do your homework, ask others that have delt with the particular breeder and so on.
Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

:goodpost: Char, I agree 100% with what you have said.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

I'm not aware of any forum, which requires your "true name" posted. 

This is a dog forum. We talk about dogs. And yep, breeders are talked about. So are those who make dresses. Good heavens, not long ago
we had a battle of the "dog bows". 

Yep, rescues get bashed, as well. So it is, what it is. It's a forum. 

Yes, we get the odd duck in here, but all, in all, it's been a very informative site. I believe we've helped many. That's all we can ask for.

Debbie Padilla aka: 3Maltmom


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

I understand how you feel, Mary. I truly believe in what goes around come around, though. 
xoxoxoxo
Deb, 
You are correct, sir. 
xoxoxoxo

I'm not being disparaging. How many bows can you possibly make before some are duplicated by someone else?
xoxoxox


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## notori (Mar 21, 2005)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Dec 10 2009, 01:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860444


> I'm not aware of any forum, which requires your "true name" posted.
> 
> This is a dog forum. We talk about dogs. And yep, breeders are talked about. So are those who make dresses. Good heavens, not long ago
> we had a battle of the "dog bows".
> ...


Malteseshowdogs, Maltesefourm, Maltesebreeders are just a few that require your name. And why wouldn't you want to post your name?? Don't know that it is a problem.
Char


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (notori @ Dec 10 2009, 09:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860513


> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Dec 10 2009, 01:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860444





> I'm not aware of any forum, which requires your "true name" posted.
> 
> This is a dog forum. We talk about dogs. And yep, breeders are talked about. So are those who make dresses. Good heavens, not long ago
> we had a battle of the "dog bows".
> ...


Malteseshowdogs, Maltesefourm, Maltesebreeders are just a few that require your name. And why wouldn't you want to post your name?? Don't know that it is a problem.
Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Char, the reason names aren't required here is that this is a public forum... any lurkers out there can read our posts and perhaps invade our privacy in malicious ways. The forums you mention are Yahoo Groups where only members have access to the content and members have to go through an approval process before being allowed to participate. So those groups are *private* groups as contrasted with SM, which is *public*.


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## remy (Jul 9, 2009)

i think breeder discussions are very helpful! that's how i found lex. luckily i found this forum before i bought a maltese from a pet store :brownbag:


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## notori (Mar 21, 2005)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Dec 10 2009, 09:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860515


> QUOTE (notori @ Dec 10 2009, 09:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860513





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Dec 10 2009, 01:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860444





> I'm not aware of any forum, which requires your "true name" posted.
> 
> This is a dog forum. We talk about dogs. And yep, breeders are talked about. So are those who make dresses. Good heavens, not long ago
> we had a battle of the "dog bows".
> ...


Malteseshowdogs, Maltesefourm, Maltesebreeders are just a few that require your name. And why wouldn't you want to post your name?? Don't know that it is a problem.
Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Char, the reason names aren't required here is that this is a public forum... any lurkers out there can read our posts and perhaps invade our privacy in malicious ways. The forums you mention are Yahoo Groups where only members have access to the content and members have to go through an approval process before being allowed to participate. So those groups are *private* groups as contrasted with SM, which is *public*.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh! My fault, thought I had to sign up for this Forum also, it was a long time ago.....LOL. Regardless people just need to be careful when buying a pup. There is bad apples in every organization unfortunatley. We breeders hear an awful lot of sad story's sometime. When people call me for a pup I try an educate them as much as I can weather they buy from me or not, that is our job as AMA members. 
Thanks, Char


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (notori @ Dec 10 2009, 11:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860543


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Dec 10 2009, 09:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860515





> QUOTE (notori @ Dec 10 2009, 09:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860513





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Dec 10 2009, 01:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860444





> I'm not aware of any forum, which requires your "true name" posted.
> 
> This is a dog forum. We talk about dogs. And yep, breeders are talked about. So are those who make dresses. Good heavens, not long ago
> we had a battle of the "dog bows".
> ...


Malteseshowdogs, Maltesefourm, Maltesebreeders are just a few that require your name. And why wouldn't you want to post your name?? Don't know that it is a problem.
Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Char, the reason names aren't required here is that this is a public forum... any lurkers out there can read our posts and perhaps invade our privacy in malicious ways. The forums you mention are Yahoo Groups where only members have access to the content and members have to go through an approval process before being allowed to participate. So those groups are *private* groups as contrasted with SM, which is *public*.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh! My fault, thought I had to sign up for this Forum also, it was a long time ago.....LOL. Regardless people just need to be careful when buying a pup. There is bad apples in every organization unfortunatley. We breeders hear an awful lot of sad story's sometime. *When people call me for a pup I try an educate them as much as I can weather they buy from me or not, that is our job as AMA members. 
*Thanks, Char 

[/B][/QUOTE]


Good post, Char. We'll all keep on "keepin on". It's the right thing to do. My dream is, one day, to see an end to all the suffering. 

At times, we on SM, have our disagreements, but at the end of the day, we all have a common goal.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

QUOTE (notori @ Dec 10 2009, 10:43 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860543


> QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Dec 10 2009, 09:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860515





> QUOTE (notori @ Dec 10 2009, 09:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860513





> QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Dec 10 2009, 01:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860444





> I'm not aware of any forum, which requires your "true name" posted.
> 
> This is a dog forum. We talk about dogs. And yep, breeders are talked about. So are those who make dresses. Good heavens, not long ago
> we had a battle of the "dog bows".
> ...


Malteseshowdogs, Maltesefourm, Maltesebreeders are just a few that require your name. And why wouldn't you want to post your name?? Don't know that it is a problem.
Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Char, the reason names aren't required here is that this is a public forum... any lurkers out there can read our posts and perhaps invade our privacy in malicious ways. The forums you mention are Yahoo Groups where only members have access to the content and members have to go through an approval process before being allowed to participate. So those groups are *private* groups as contrasted with SM, which is *public*.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh! My fault, thought I had to sign up for this Forum also, it was a long time ago.....LOL. Regardless people just need to be careful when buying a pup. There is bad apples in every organization unfortunatley. We breeders hear an awful lot of sad story's sometime. When people call me for a pup I try an educate them as much as I can weather they buy from me or not, that is our job as AMA members. 
Thanks, Char
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, you do have to sign up here but there is no approval process... anyone can sign up. With those Yahoo groups the owner has to "approve" members. And the main thing is that there are no lurkers.


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## moshi melo (Jul 2, 2009)

QUOTE (prince lex @ Dec 10 2009, 11:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860541


> i think breeder discussions are very helpful! that's how i found lex. luckily i found this forum before i bought a maltese from a pet store :brownbag:[/B]


I agree, this forum saved me from getting a pup from a BYB.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Sher is right. There is a difference in the 2 kinds of forums. You can come here signed up or not and read all the info.

I, personally, am always looking to learn something. I joined (long time ago) one of those 'owner' owned forums and found it a bunch of breeders talking in what seemed like to me to be 'breeder code'.  You can't tell what dog they are talking about because they use call names mostly, for one thing. Of course we do that here, but we are 99.9 % pet owners. I want to know things like who is breeding who/what and when they say, i.e., "Sammie" got a major it doesn't help me. Obviously there are some call names we recognize--Tommy, Thriller, Risqué, Marc, Silly, Keeper--but not many, and those are all studs. There are 2 parents equally responsible for each litter.

In order for me to benefit in choosing a breeder for my pet I need to know the producing dogs who have the healthiest, most loving, smartest, well-balanced little ones. Not who is able to get the ribbons from the most judges. There is too much involved in getting those ribbons. I also want my pet to be to standard as closely as possible, but that is secondary. I'm going to live very close, 24/7, for at least 15 years with this new family member. (I certainly lucked out this time there)

What I also wanted to know and found impossible to find, was who was good to deal with. Meaning paper work, negotiation, help after the sale, standing behind what they breed. SM failed me there, not that the breeder I chose was failing in those depts., but I never got an answer to any of those questions about breeders I was considering. I got personality's some of the time, but not the important stuff. I also tried to find some kind of 'data base' of who bought from whom and did find one member who was keeping track of some members purchases, but mostly it was too old to help. At the time there was lots of GME/NME cropping up and I desperately wanted to know if there was a connection to any line.

What people often over look in deciding their breeder, is that all those breeders are breeding different dogs then they were 5 years ago. I can't say I want a dog with a certain kennel name. At best it gives you an idea who is "popular" at the moment, and possibly some idea which breeder is consistent and has some knowledge of breeding genetics. Which is important, but not everything. Kennel A was winning with dogs from stud A, but now is breeding to stud C owned by someone in a foreign country now.......etc.

If we can't discuss breeders we really have blinders on. I don't have any friends who own a Malt that I can get a reference from. There are very few Maltese even in my state, or my general area--the NW. Of course common courtesy says we don't say terrible things on an open forum, but we should say enough to get someone who needs to know to use the PM or email to ask further questions. Even if we only post the _good_ stuff, at least people looking for a breeder might go there instead of to an unknown. If I ever have a dog with a catastrophic disease I will be more than glad to pass on their pedigree if asked in private and let that person decide if it is something to worry about. I'm not that well versed in genetics.

When I say these kinds of things some of you jump the conclusion that I'm flaming breeders. I most certainly am not. The ones I've had the pleasure of meeting are to the best of my knowledge up standing members of AMA, and very nice people to meet. I haven't met any that don't love their dogs and they do what they do for the improvement of the breed. I just don't want to see the best avenue we have (SM) change things so we can't discuss the people we go to for our little furbabies.

There is always the chance someone is going to come here only to vent a hatred for someone else. We have monitors for that and a lot of us have gotten very good at spotting those people also. It has become pretty hard for those sudden Newbies with a mission of evil to get past us. 

For myself--I love our little dogs with a passion, and admire the people who breed and care for them, but I also want to know all I can when deciding on which breeder to use.
Peace,
Dee


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Dec 10 2009, 10:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860803


> Sher is right. There is a difference in the 2 kinds of forums. You can come here signed up or not and read all the info.
> 
> I, personally, am always looking to learn something. I joined (long time ago) one of those 'owner' owned forums and found it a bunch of breeders talking in what seemed like to me to be 'breeder code'.  You can't tell what dog they are talking about because they use call names mostly, for one thing. Of course we do that here, but we are 99.9 % pet owners. I want to know things like who is breeding who/what and when they say, i.e., "Sammie" got a major it doesn't help me. Obviously there are some call names we recognize--Tommy, Thriller, Risqué, Marc, Silly, Keeper--but not many, and those are all studs. There are 2 parents equally responsible for each litter.
> 
> ...


Dee, that was an excellent post. I couldn't agree more. I love ya!!! Hey, "We Love Ya". Deb and Gang arty:


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## Delilahs Mommy (Nov 22, 2009)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Dec 10 2009, 10:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=860803


> Sher is right. There is a difference in the 2 kinds of forums. You can come here signed up or not and read all the info.
> 
> I, personally, am always looking to learn something. I joined (long time ago) one of those 'owner' owned forums and found it a bunch of breeders talking in what seemed like to me to be 'breeder code'.  You can't tell what dog they are talking about because they use call names mostly, for one thing. Of course we do that here, but we are 99.9 % pet owners. I want to know things like who is breeding who/what and when they say, i.e., "Sammie" got a major it doesn't help me. Obviously there are some call names we recognize--Tommy, Thriller, Risqué, Marc, Silly, Keeper--but not many, and those are all studs. There are 2 parents equally responsible for each litter.
> 
> ...



Very well said Dee! Thank you!! I have learned a lot from this forum in the few short weeks I have been here. After all, this is the place that lead me to my Delilah Rose  Normally, I would have never joined a forum such as this and I would have never thought of buying a pup from a show breeder. As all the pets I have pretty much had in my life have been rescues or given to me. Looking back now, we made a BIG boo-boo when my mom got our GSD back in 2001. That dog had the worst behavioral problems I had ever seen in a dog. Red flag #1 should have been, the breeder wouldn't let me come to her house to see how things were, meet the parent's etc. (Which lead us having to rehome her earlier this year)Something I didn't think of until to late or course. So I have learned a lot from this site!! And I thank you all for being so helpful, knowledgeable and welcoming to those of us who don't know the things we need to know when getting a healthy pup.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Personally, I would like to have more breeder discussions that brings out other really good breeders that aren't well known on this forum. Just because a breeder is 'popular' doesn't mean that they can't have questionable breeding practices. So I'm all in favor of giving more visibility to some really great breeders that many of us have never heard of.

That being said, I think it important that we all remember that no breeder, no vendor (I'm in that group) and no one product will ever please everyone 100% of the time. Doesn't mean that breeder, vendor, or product isn't great at all. So that's when I think it important not to try and ruin anyone's rep but to follow SM's guidelines that only those with first hand experience may bring up concerns. And even then, they may want to do that privately rather than in the open forum. I know a couple of people didn't like it when I chose to bring up a concern but would only share it privately. It is not my intention to ruin anyone's reputation, and what may concern me may not concern someone else. And we've seen it toom many times when a minor concern comes up and it can be totally blown out of proportion by the time others weigh in on it. So it's up to the individual to do their homework and determine what they are looking for in a breeder. But I do believe it important to have a 'checks and balance' system to keep all of us doing what is right. I'll use HollyBell (I know that's not the right spelling) as an example. From what I understand, she actually started out as a good breeder but then just got too many dogs and became one of the worst cases of neglect that comes to mind. If people had not started to question her breeding practices, she would still be causing horrendous suffering to countless precious little souls.

Also, I think it good to always look at the number of posts and how long someone has been on SM when all of a sudden a thread is started or a post is made that is saying negative things about a breeder. Almost always it's either a newbie or someone who rarely posts if it's simply trying to stir up trouble for someone. And like others have said, we have great mods and many of us are also quick to spot those.


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