# Just a small reminder



## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act


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## maltlover1953 (Sep 28, 2007)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 06:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


I agree. I have noticed that some of the folks on this forum have an attitude about certain breeders, that is if you don't own one from this particular breeder your dog is not worthy.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]



Agreed!!! It doesn't change anything, they already have their precious babies, it just makes new people feel bad and not 'welcomed' because they got their dogs from a 'not accepted' breeder. 

I see the need for 'educating' but there is a difference between educating and making someone feel bad for something that has already occured. It's why i try to tell them not to take it personally because the newbie doesn't recognize the frustration about bad breeders and can't help but take it personally. I know I sure would! I know the comments were directed at the breeders, not the people buying the pups but it doesn't always come across that way.

And I hope this is taken as an FYI, and not as any type of accusation. *hugs you all*


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## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (maltlover1953 @ Sep 14 2009, 08:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829762


> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 06:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


I agree. I have noticed that some of the folks on this forum have an attitude about certain breeders, that is if you don't own one from this particular breeder your dog is not worthy.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Your dogs are adorable!!! Thank you for your response!!!


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## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Sep 14 2009, 09:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829766


> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]



Agreed!!! It doesn't change anything, they already have their precious babies, it just makes new people feel bad and not 'welcomed' because they got their dogs from a 'not accepted' breeder. 

I see the need for 'educating' but there is a difference between educating and making someone feel bad for something that has already occured. It's why i try to tell them not to take it personally because the newbie doesn't recognize the frustration about bad breeders and can't help but take it personally. I know I sure would! I know the comments were directed at the breeders, not the people buying the pups but it doesn't always come across that way.

And I hope this is taken as an FYI, and not as any type of accusation. *hugs you all*
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks Stacy 
Congrats again on the pups!!


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


 
I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience. It's the established members on this forum who have made the error of purchasing from a pet store or BYB that can give first hand accounts of the huge vet bills, and heartache that accompanies the many ills. If one newbie or lurker can be stopped from making the pet shop/BYB purchase error then we as a forum have done our job - to educate! It shouldn't matter _when_ it takes place, what's important is that it _does_ take place. 

As for hurtful remarks, I know of no one in recent months that as made any hurtful comments to a newbie. However, I think that would all be in the perception of the reader of the post. Should a thread were to have gone awry one of the Mods would have intervened.


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## Layla Bunnie's Mom (May 8, 2009)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 06:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


I agree 100% , some of the people on here can be very rude and make it seem that if the malt is not of their "standards" or from a certain breeder that it shouldn't be cared for. All animals deserve a chance! And why rain on someone's parade when they are in puppy love from the excitement of getting their new pup! There is a time and place for EVERYTHING in life!


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781


> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


 
I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience. It's the established members on this forum who have made the error of purchasing from a pet store or BYB that can give first hand accounts of the huge vet bills, and heartache that accompanies the many ills. If one newbie or lurker can be stopped from making the pet shop/BYB purchase error then we as a forum have done our job - to educate! It shouldn't matter _when_ it takes place, what's important is that it _does_ take place. 

As for hurtful remarks, I know of no one in recent months that as made any hurtful comments to a newbie. However, I think that would all be in the perception of the reader of the post. Should a thread were to have gone awry one of the Mods would have intervened. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

Marsha,
While I agree that it is very important to educate people on puppy mills and BYB's, (I know I've done my fair share) I do think it is unnecessary to bring it up in somebody's intro post. If an OP has already acknowledged that she may not have bought from a 'good' breeder, pointing out her mistake that has already been acknowledged and implying that she/he was not smart about the situation can be hurtful, in my opinion. If you'd like an example, i'd be happy to provide one.

Now, if someone came on here and hadn't bought a puppy yet and didn't know the difference about good and not so good breeders, that would be a different story. Educate away! I'll be right there with you. :thumbsup: 

If a new maltese owner hangs around long enough, they can't help but read about the problems that can occur from buying from a not so great breeder, and can apply it to their own situation. Time and a place for everything. I know I've probably been guilty of this also so Lawrence's reminder is helpful for me also.


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## Poppy's mommy (Dec 21, 2007)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


I agree with you!


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## casa verde maltese (Apr 7, 2007)

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!

the first thing we should do is welcome them! they are here to learn and we should be friendly. I know exactly what you are talking about and I was rather upset by it. we are here to offer support and be helpful and friendly IMHO. especially to people who are introducing themselves.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


Great post and I couldn't agree more.

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 09:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781


> I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience.[/B]


Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.

MaryH


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## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 14 2009, 11:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829858


> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


Great post and I couldn't agree more.

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 09:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781


> I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience.[/B]


Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]
Wonderful Statement Mary You have done a wonderful thing with your dogs!!!! Nice to know they have had happy lives with someone who loves them!!!!


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## maltlover1953 (Sep 28, 2007)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 14 2009, 11:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829858


> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


Great post and I couldn't agree more.

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 09:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781


> I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience.[/B]


Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]
You Go Girl, Mary H you are terrfic!!!!!


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Thanks for this reminder to remember our tact and civility. A little more civility is absolutely in order all over (not just on SM). 

QUOTE


> Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


Thank you Mary for this personal experience. I also have wondered about all the blanket statements some people make about the sick dogs that come from BYBs and Mills. Yes, those breeders who breed for greed do not pay attention to health and the associated issues, but there are many of us who have owned dogs who had not so great starts that lived to a ripe old age. Health issues are not isolated to only the poorly bred. They crop up in even the "best lines." Not much thought is usually given to human breeding either. One breeder I know and respect says that if we were dogs she wouldn't breed us. LOL. The fact is that breeding dogs is not an exact science. 

I also wish people would use more care when trying to "educate" folks. I have witnessed a lot of "educating" on SM that seems like piling on. Usually, the person who is being "educated" has stopped listening. Not everyone wants to be critiqued and some people are more sensitive than others.


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm just glad that people DO educate here. That's the reason I love Spoiled Maltese so much. I used to spend more time on Yorkie forums but most educating would end up in a debate/fight and lots of suspensions/banning...and it seems like most people on the yorkie forums don't want to be educated. It's really sad and usually just frustrates me to go on them anymore and read about all the poorly bred puppies people buy (and many of these people should know better), the backyard breeders that for some reason get so much support there, and all the dogs with health issues. So I'm thankful for this forum where people are able to educate without getting jumped on by people calling them rude and I'm thankful that it seems like the majority of people here do listen here. 

I agree with the OP...welcome first and educate later is a good policy. You don't want to scare them away before they have a chance to feel comfortable here..then they might never return and not have a chance to learn. And regarding health issues..I have two dogs from byb and they are fortunately healthy. However, I do believe you have a much greater chance of getting dogs with health issues from unreputable breeders...many people do get lucky with their poorly bred dogs but many also have health issues.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 14 2009, 10:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829858


> Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so *much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.
> *
> MaryH[/B]


Great post! This has always been my concern - that those considering a rescue might be swayed to not adopt. As most know, Annie is a rescue and yes in the beginning she was very ill and had some vet bills, but she is totally healthy now and I couldn't be any happier. I agree - welcome first and educate later - most will be educated anyway as they read through the forums. 

ETA: An recent example?? http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=48889


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Sep 14 2009, 06:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829805


> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781





> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


 
I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

Marsha,
While I agree that it is very important to educate people on puppy mills and BYB's, (I know I've done my fair share) I do think it is unnecessary to bring it up in somebody's intro post. If an OP has already acknowledged that she may not have bought from a 'good' breeder, pointing out her mistake that has already been acknowledged and implying that she/he was not smart about the situation can be hurtful, in my opinion. If you'd like an example, i'd be happy to provide one.

Now, if someone came on here and hadn't bought a puppy yet and didn't know the difference about good and not so good breeders, that would be a different story. Educate away! I'll be right there with you. :thumbsup: 

If a new maltese owner hangs around long enough, they can't help but read about the problems that can occur from buying from a not so great breeder, and can apply it to their own situation. Time and a place for everything. I know I've probably been guilty of this also so Lawrence's reminder is helpful for me also.
[/B][/QUOTE]
:goodpost: 
Stacy is so right about the timing. When a new member comes here with a new puppy to share, we should just welcome. They will get educated if they stick around. And, I myself have one BYB dog and one very well bred dog (thank you Stacy). I love them both, and both are healthy as can be. Lucky for me. I know better now, largely because of this forum. Please, lets not scare new people off.


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## fredsmama (Apr 21, 2009)

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Sep 15 2009, 12:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829885


> I'm just glad that people DO educate here. That's the reason I love Spoiled Maltese so much. I used to spend more time on Yorkie forums but most educating would end up in a debate/fight and lots of suspensions/banning...and it seems like most people on the yorkie forums don't want to be educated. It's really sad and usually just frustrates me to go on them anymore and read about all the poorly bred puppies people buy (and many of these people should know better), the backyard breeders that for some reason get so much support there, and all the dogs with health issues. So I'm thankful for this forum where people are able to educate without getting jumped on by people calling them rude and I'm thankful that it seems like the majority of people here do listen here.
> 
> I agree with the OP...welcome first and educate later is a good policy. You don't want to scare them away before they have a chance to feel comfortable here..then they might never return and not have a chance to learn. And regarding health issues..I have two dogs from byb and they are fortunately healthy. However, I do believe you have a much greater chance of getting dogs with health issues from unreputable breeders...many people do get lucky with their poorly bred dogs but many also have health issues.[/B]



As a newbie owner from a "Mistake hook-up" of my neighbor's dogs, I have Fred. I have to say that I have asked some pretty stupid questions, but always, the Forum people have responded kindly. And I DO understand the danger of puppy mills and BY breeders--the unsuspecting owner may be in for big vet bills and heartbreak. BUT, a great pedigree does not always give you a good dog. My last Springer Spaniel had a fantastic line, was very costly-and I had to put him down at 2 because of Springer Rage syndone--I cried for days and days. He had been through Obedience trails, was a great dog and absolutely beautiful--so sometimes-bad things happen to the best of dogs. I did not get another dog for many years. Then ended up with TWO rescues and FIVE stray cats! I DO want to get a buddy for Fred and WILL go to a good breeder for a Pet quality puppy--IF I don't succumb to a rescue! But, this forum has educated me tremendously and for that I am grateful. Thank you all, you caring people. Anne


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## Deborah (Jan 8, 2006)

I too feel all new people should be welcomed to this forum unconditionally. The introduce your self should be a congratulations and welcome. If they stay on the forum they will certainly learn about good breeding habits.


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## mpappie (Jun 28, 2005)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 14 2009, 11:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829858


> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


 :goodpost: 
Great post and I couldn't agree more.

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 09:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781


> I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience.[/B]


Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]


:goodpost:
Pup is a 13 yr. old rescue with no health problems except a murmur which he takes a pill for. ($6.00 a month)
Ollie is a rescue, he came from a pet store and he is 5 and has great health.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

I'm very thick skinned and I have very strong negative feelings about BYBs, brokers, pet stores that sell puppies and puppymills and my inclination is to educate at every opportunity.

However, I sat here just now and pictured myself joining a forum like this and being so excited about my new puppy and then I am told I bought from the wrong place and that there will be huge vet bills in my future, etc. I tried to feel what it would be like to hear those words directed at myself. Now, I truly can imagine how hurtful this must be for the person on the receiving end. 

I think there is a time and place for everything and after giving it a lot of thought, I think the Introduce Yourself thread is not the place to tell someone they bought from the wrong kind of breeder, etc. 

[I am speaking as myself and not as Admin.]


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## Sugarbaby (May 21, 2008)

I will have to agree with the person that was talking about the remarks made. When i first read what the person typed about getting the puppy and the house was dirty and than seen the remarks made about them getting the dog there i was like WHAT??? I thought the remarks were out of line as well.

I for one got my malt and the person's house was not the cleanest but my malt is as pretty if not prettier than some i have seen..She will be 2 years old and has only been to the vet 1 time for any illness which she does not have an ear infection.

My goodness. Just because you don't pay 2,000.00 for a toy malt don't mean they can't be a beautiful dog. As long as you have your papers and they meet the requirements in Wva you can show them..in a real show where you get money. lol

So i will have to agree that i think some of the comments were harsh too. Maybe i am sorry would be a good thing to write.

sugars mom


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Sep 15 2009, 02:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830037


> I'm very thick skinned and I have very strong negative feelings about BYBs, brokers, pet stores that sell puppies and puppymills and my inclination is to educate at every opportunity.
> 
> However, I sat here just now and pictured myself joining a forum like this and being so excited about my new puppy and then I am told I bought from the wrong place and that there will be huge vet bills in my future, etc. I tried to feel what it would be like to hear those words directed at myself. Now, I truly can imagine how hurtful this must be for the person on the receiving end.
> 
> ...


I think your post is very well written (and yours too Mary). I still consider myself new since I have been here for less than a year and sometimes I still worry about the huge vet bills that could be lurking in my future because Hunter's history is so unknown but it is likely that he is not a well-bred maltese. I do appreciate being warned but when I first learned (from reading posts directed at others) of all the things I needed to be weary about I honestly considered whether my husband and I had made the right choice in adopting Hunter because I wasn't sure I would be able to provide for him in the months to come. Thankfully, he has turned out to be pretty healthy but there was a short period of time where I considered whether we should try to rehome him to someone who might have been better equipped to afford all the testing that was suggested and his potential needs.

I guess what all my blabbering is saying is that, as someone who doesn't know a lot about dogs, breeding, or vet care, hearing all of the education at once can really make you second quess your purchase or adoption! I like the idea of no education in the introduction forum unless it is specifically asked for (such as someone searching for a puppy still).


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 15 2009, 12:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830020


> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Sep 14 2009, 06:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829805





> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781





> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


 
I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

Marsha,
While I agree that it is very important to educate people on puppy mills and BYB's, (I know I've done my fair share) I do think it is unnecessary to bring it up in somebody's intro post. If an OP has already acknowledged that she may not have bought from a 'good' breeder, pointing out her mistake that has already been acknowledged and implying that she/he was not smart about the situation can be hurtful, in my opinion. If you'd like an example, i'd be happy to provide one.

Now, if someone came on here and hadn't bought a puppy yet and didn't know the difference about good and not so good breeders, that would be a different story. Educate away! I'll be right there with you. :thumbsup: 

If a new maltese owner hangs around long enough, they can't help but read about the problems that can occur from buying from a not so great breeder, and can apply it to their own situation. Time and a place for everything. I know I've probably been guilty of this also so Lawrence's reminder is helpful for me also.
[/B][/QUOTE]
:goodpost: 
Stacy is so right about the timing. When a new member comes here with a new puppy to share, we should just welcome. They will get educated if they stick around. And, I myself have one BYB dog and one very well bred dog (thank you Stacy). I love them both, and both are healthy as can be. Lucky for me. I know better now, largely because of this forum. Please, lets not scare new people off.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with you ladies 

Camden (RIP) was a puppymill purchased (by me) dog and I didn't know anything about puppymills at the time I joined here a few years back. I sure do appreciate the many warm welcomes that I got when I came here years ago, but there always the few "elitists" who felt compelled to turn their noses up at me. Even if it wasn't communicated directly, anyone with half a brain (and I do barely have half of one) and with feelings knows when they are being snubbed and it only takes one person to blow it. If you scare or discourage the newbie away, they will never learn all the wonderful things that are here to learn.

I've learned from my mistakes from the wonderful people here--both directly and indirectly! You know the saying--people don't care about how much you know, they know about how much you care!


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## lorraine (Jun 24, 2006)

When I joined SM I think the 12-week rule err... ruled. That may be an exagerration and I am sure BYBs and puppymills were also being discussed. I didn't really notice that because I knew my pup would be under 12 weeks old when I got him. After 3 years of researching and waiting, I brought him home at just over 10 weeks of age which is usual for UK Malts (even from respectable breeders) so I added a bit to his age when introducing him to SM because I did not want my joy at finally getting him diminished by a touch of ageism. 

My point being... too much 'pro-bono' advice may start to fall on deaf ears after a while and could be counter-productive. Established and experienced members' comments could, perhaps, be more focussed on the situation the owner is actually in if they ask questions or expesss concerns rather than on hypotheses on what could happen somewhere along the pup's time-line.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

QUOTE (camfan @ Sep 15 2009, 02:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830042


> QUOTE (pammy4501 @ Sep 15 2009, 12:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830020





> QUOTE (BellarataMaltese @ Sep 14 2009, 06:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829805





> QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 06:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781





> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


 
I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

Marsha,
While I agree that it is very important to educate people on puppy mills and BYB's, (I know I've done my fair share) I do think it is unnecessary to bring it up in somebody's intro post. If an OP has already acknowledged that she may not have bought from a 'good' breeder, pointing out her mistake that has already been acknowledged and implying that she/he was not smart about the situation can be hurtful, in my opinion. If you'd like an example, i'd be happy to provide one.

Now, if someone came on here and hadn't bought a puppy yet and didn't know the difference about good and not so good breeders, that would be a different story. Educate away! I'll be right there with you. :thumbsup: 

If a new maltese owner hangs around long enough, they can't help but read about the problems that can occur from buying from a not so great breeder, and can apply it to their own situation. Time and a place for everything. I know I've probably been guilty of this also so Lawrence's reminder is helpful for me also.
[/B][/QUOTE]
:goodpost: 
Stacy is so right about the timing. When a new member comes here with a new puppy to share, we should just welcome. They will get educated if they stick around. And, I myself have one BYB dog and one very well bred dog (thank you Stacy). I love them both, and both are healthy as can be. Lucky for me. I know better now, largely because of this forum. Please, lets not scare new people off.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with you ladies 

Camden (RIP) was a puppymill purchased (by me) dog and I didn't know anything about puppymills at the time I joined here a few years back. I sure do appreciate the many warm welcomes that I got when I came here years ago, but there always the few "elitists" who felt compelled to turn their noses up at me. Even if it wasn't communicated directly, anyone with half a brain (and I do barely have half of one) and with feelings knows when they are being snubbed and it only takes one person to blow it. If you scare or discourage the newbie away, they will never learn all the wonderful things that are here to learn.

I've learned from my mistakes from the wonderful people here--both directly and indirectly! You know the saying--people don't care about how much you know, they know about how much you care!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Great Post, Pam! I totally agree with you on EVERY point. :biggrin:


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## KAG (Jun 1, 2006)

Sometimes I think "newbie" posts are written to rile everyone up. 

This forum is full of loving, caring, compassionate, funny people whom I am proud to call my friends.
xoxoxoxoxoxox


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## llf060787 (Nov 19, 2007)

when I bought my bianca from a puppy broker, I had no idea what a BYB or puppy mills was. Everyone here welcomed me and didn't judge. I may have gotten her out of ignorance but I've given her a loving home and she's given me much, much move love than I ever expected. I wouldn't change that for the world. Since then I've learned quite a few things, thanks to the people on SM. I now know enough so that If we do get another dog I would search rescue first and a private reputable breeder next. Not all of us here on SM have pure-bred maltese. We are multi-cultural, multi-bred maltese group who love their pets dearly. Whether they're 1/4 or whole maltese, it doesn't matter.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (K/C Mom @ Sep 15 2009, 02:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830037


> I'm very thick skinned and I have very strong negative feelings about BYBs, brokers, pet stores that sell puppies and puppymills and my inclination is to educate at every opportunity.
> 
> However, I sat here just now and pictured myself joining a forum like this and being so excited about my new puppy and then I am told I bought from the wrong place and that there will be huge vet bills in my future, etc. I tried to feel what it would be like to hear those words directed at myself. Now, I truly can imagine how hurtful this must be for the person on the receiving end.
> 
> ...


Very well said, Sher. :goodpost: 

I think once the deal is sealed and someone comes on after they have purchased a puppy from a pet store or BYB, there really is no point in criticizing their decision. They certainly aren't going to sent the puppy back.

I do think it's very important to alert people who have brought puppies homes at only 6-8 weeks that they need to be very careful of hypoglycemia. It can save their puppy's life. Most puppies who come home too young don't come with instructions. I think it can be done in an educational, concerned manner, though, without being judgmental. 

It's always wonderful when we get a newbie who joins before they get their puppy looking for help. That is when we can share our experiences and try to help them find a reputable breeder. Obviously we still a lot of work to do about educating people about puppy mills/pet stores and backyard breeders. Look a the number of people in this thread alone that said they didn't know about pet stores and BYB's when they got their puppy.


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## diesel (Oct 21, 2008)

I'd like to start off by saying a big THANK YOU to the OP for bringing this topic up. 

I remember the first time I found this site. I was so excited at all there was (and is) to learn here and how helpful everyone can be! BUT, i didn't introduce myself for about 6 months, because many of the newbies were being berated for their under 12 wks puppy purchase. Instead I lurked the site, and posted questions only when I couldn't find the answers through a lot of hard searching in the forums. Through this site I learned that I had made my purchase through a BYB, not intentionally but still true. Diesel was only 10 wks old when I got him, and the information on this site has proven invaluable in his first year of life. 

Every time I've posted personally, everyone has been really kind, understanding, genuinely concerned about problems, and genuinely happy about the good things. And the OP's post somehow makes me feel more comfortable about posting in the future. (I'm still in newbie status from my infrequent posts over the past year) This site provides an amazing amount of knowledge and support...lets make newbies feel welcome, and hopefully in time, they'll come to understand the origins of their puppy and purchase from a reputable breeder the next time around. Getting them to read the site is above all the best way to educate.


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## Starsmom (Jan 31, 2009)

"I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience. It's the established members on this forum who have made the error of purchasing from a pet store or BYB that can give first hand accounts of the huge vet bills, and heartache that accompanies the many ills. If one newbie or lurker can be stopped from making the pet shop/BYB purchase error then we as a forum have done our job - to educate! It shouldn't matter _when_ it takes place, what's important is that it _does_ take place. 

As for hurtful remarks, I know of no one in recent months that as made any hurtful comments to a newbie. However, I think that would all be in the perception of the reader of the post. Should a thread were to have gone awry one of the Mods would have intervened."  

I stand by the above statement, as well as the statement I made to the newbie that apparently was the fodder for this thread. As a follow up post the newbie has stated she was not offended by any of the comments made.

Everyone in this thread has stated their opinion, I have been verbally spanked, and now I will remain silent. :bysmilie:


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## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

When I started this topic I did not think that so many replys would come back. I am happy that everyone has realized that telling new maltese owners that they made a mistake if there dog is not purchased from a certain class of breeder. Knowlege is a wonderful tool and so is education but only when it is used without making people feel that they made huge mistake. You can welcome new members and then later teach and help them with there dogs.Thank you to the Admin for moving this topic and also for her help.Thank you all for hearing what I had to say. Please kindly except my gratitude for listening and actually hearing my thoughts
Best Regards 
Laawrance


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## chiarasdad (Dec 13, 2008)

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 15 2009, 08:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830154


> "I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience. It's the established members on this forum who have made the error of purchasing from a pet store or BYB that can give first hand accounts of the huge vet bills, and heartache that accompanies the many ills. If one newbie or lurker can be stopped from making the pet shop/BYB purchase error then we as a forum have done our job - to educate! It shouldn't matter _when_ it takes place, what's important is that it _does_ take place.
> 
> As for hurtful remarks, I know of no one in recent months that as made any hurtful comments to a newbie. However, I think that would all be in the perception of the reader of the post. Should a thread were to have gone awry one of the Mods would have intervened."
> 
> ...


My starting of the topic was not based off of your comments alone I have read the comments on earlier posts that had nothing to do with you. It was a broad statement meant to have some consideration for peoples feelings. I still bellieve treat people how you would want to be treated and put yourself in that position. Again this was not a personal attack on you.


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## Pebbles_mum (Aug 30, 2009)

Thank you all for the caring and insightful posts. I have learned so much just reading the different threads. Many of you have a wealth of knowledge about Maltese. :ThankYou: Different people get animals for different reasons. We need to respect each other. :Sunny Smile: As much as I would love to own another show quality animal, groom, train, and show again- I can't. I did purchase a smaller than standard maltese from a BYB to care for and share with my mom who has dementia. I'm sorry. :blush: She was spayed as soon as my vet deemed best and I am enjoying every minute with her. She is my baby, the right size for me and my mom with the temperment that is best for us. So I thank those of you who rejoice with me on the new addition to my family and my life.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Sep 15 2009, 02:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830041


> I think your post is very well written (and yours too Mary). I still consider myself new since I have been here for less than a year and sometimes I still worry about the huge vet bills that could be lurking in my future because Hunter's history is so unknown but it is likely that he is not a well-bred maltese. I do appreciate being warned but when I first learned (from reading posts directed at others) of all the things I needed to be weary about I honestly considered whether my husband and I had made the right choice in adopting Hunter because I wasn't sure I would be able to provide for him in the months to come. Thankfully, he has turned out to be pretty healthy but there was a short period of time where I considered whether we should try to rehome him to someone who might have been better equipped to afford all the testing that was suggested and his potential needs.
> 
> I guess what all my blabbering is saying is that, as someone who doesn't know a lot about dogs, breeding, or vet care, hearing all of the education at once can really make you second quess your purchase or adoption! I like the idea of no education in the introduction forum unless it is specifically asked for (such as someone searching for a puppy still).[/B]


Erin,

As we all know, there are never any guarantees ... when buying a house or a car or a dog or anything else (and I am certainly not comparing buying a living breathing being to any of the others!). Whether dogs of unknown origin, not so great origin, or outstanding origin, my recipe is good food, clean water, fresh air, plenty of exercise, annual wellness exams and unending love and affection. If we provide these ingredients to all our dogs all the time the rest is in God's hands. And I don't believe God is looking at pedigrees.  

MaryH


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## Hunter's Mom (Dec 8, 2008)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 15 2009, 10:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830218


> QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Sep 15 2009, 02:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830041





> I think your post is very well written (and yours too Mary). I still consider myself new since I have been here for less than a year and sometimes I still worry about the huge vet bills that could be lurking in my future because Hunter's history is so unknown but it is likely that he is not a well-bred maltese. I do appreciate being warned but when I first learned (from reading posts directed at others) of all the things I needed to be weary about I honestly considered whether my husband and I had made the right choice in adopting Hunter because I wasn't sure I would be able to provide for him in the months to come. Thankfully, he has turned out to be pretty healthy but there was a short period of time where I considered whether we should try to rehome him to someone who might have been better equipped to afford all the testing that was suggested and his potential needs.
> 
> I guess what all my blabbering is saying is that, as someone who doesn't know a lot about dogs, breeding, or vet care, hearing all of the education at once can really make you second quess your purchase or adoption! I like the idea of no education in the introduction forum unless it is specifically asked for (such as someone searching for a puppy still).[/B]


Erin,

As we all know, there are never any guarantees ... when buying a house or a car or a dog or anything else (and I am certainly not comparing buying a living breathing being to any of the others!). Whether dogs of unknown origin, not so great origin, or outstanding origin, my recipe is good food, clean water, fresh air, plenty of exercise, annual wellness exams and unending love and affection. If we provide these ingredients to all our dogs all the time the rest is in God's hands. And I don't believe God is looking at pedigrees.  

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh Mary, 

I do know these things. And in my heart of hearts I could never have given Hunter back because all of his quirks make him who is he and what he has become for my husband and I. He is the child we may never have and has become what I like to think of as a guardian angel.However, I would give my right arm and my left leg if it meant that our Hunter could continue to receive nothing but the best care, treats, toys, accessories, vet care, and love. But your message is beautiful and reminds me that there will always be an element in his life (and mine) greater than me and I thank you for that 

Erin


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 15 2009, 10:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830218


> QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Sep 15 2009, 02:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830041





> I think your post is very well written (and yours too Mary). I still consider myself new since I have been here for less than a year and sometimes I still worry about the huge vet bills that could be lurking in my future because Hunter's history is so unknown but it is likely that he is not a well-bred maltese. I do appreciate being warned but when I first learned (from reading posts directed at others) of all the things I needed to be weary about I honestly considered whether my husband and I had made the right choice in adopting Hunter because I wasn't sure I would be able to provide for him in the months to come. Thankfully, he has turned out to be pretty healthy but there was a short period of time where I considered whether we should try to rehome him to someone who might have been better equipped to afford all the testing that was suggested and his potential needs.
> 
> I guess what all my blabbering is saying is that, as someone who doesn't know a lot about dogs, breeding, or vet care, hearing all of the education at once can really make you second quess your purchase or adoption! I like the idea of no education in the introduction forum unless it is specifically asked for (such as someone searching for a puppy still).[/B]


Erin,

As we all know, there are never any guarantees ... when buying a house or a car or a dog or anything else (and I am certainly not comparing buying a living breathing being to any of the others!). Whether dogs of unknown origin, not so great origin, or outstanding origin, my recipe is good food, clean water, fresh air, plenty of exercise, annual wellness exams and unending love and affection. If we provide these ingredients to all our dogs all the time the rest is in God's hands. *And I don't believe God is looking at pedigrees.  

*MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

No he's not, if he were, then we're ALL doomed ~ LOL

If I may, without offending anyone, add a little something here.

Yep, to scare someone out of their wits, that their dog will die within a matter of time, is not cool.

My mills lived a long time, although with hereditary health issues, my Daisy passed at close to 15-years-old.
Lulu at 17-years-old, Bianca at 14-years-old, and my beloved Henry, well he was up there, over 11-years-old.

Then again, my Sammie passed before her 2nd birthday, of unknown causes. She was from a BYB. So who knows.

My problem is not so much with health issues, rather than supporting the over population, not only in this world,
but in my house. Supporting the mills, and BYB's, while there are soooo many in the shelters, who are just as worthy.

I must agree, with the OP. Newbies need to be welcomed to our site. In time, they can help spread the word.
Not of health issues, but rather help spread the word to shut down the mills, over population, and the BYB's who are
adding to our problem.


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## njdrake (Apr 23, 2007)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 06:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]



:goodpost:


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## lawgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

I share the viewpoint of the Original Poster as well as MaryH. Educating and preventing mistakes ex ante is one thing, but being unwelcome (even with good intentions to provide them with correct information) AFTER the fact of the purchase achieves nothing positive.

I truly understand how strongly the caring and dedicated veteran members of this forum feel about puppy mills and backyard breeder--I also agree 100% that these issues deserve advocacy. But _effective_ advocacy requires a gentler, more context-sensitive approach, especially where the newcomer has already made the purchase and is only seeking to become better informed as a dog parent via this amazing forum. Why would we wish to dissuade them from this endeavour?

The only two possible side effects of posters being overly-zealous and negative toward newbies who unknowingly purchased from a pet store or a backyard breeder are: (1) to make them leave and lose a valuable learning opportunity, or (2) to silence them from asking potentially embarrassing health and training questions about their Maltese because they don't want to receive numerous negative, tangential comments about why they didn't make the right purchase in the first place.

I support discerning and gentle advocacy, not ad hominem criticisms or after-the-fact lectures.

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 14 2009, 11:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829858


> QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 03:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711





> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]


Great post and I couldn't agree more.

QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 09:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781


> I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience.[/B]


Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]


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## lawgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

QUOTE (llf060787 @ Sep 15 2009, 03:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830068


> when I bought my bianca from a puppy broker, I had no idea what a BYB or puppy mills was. Everyone here welcomed me and didn't judge. I may have gotten her out of ignorance but I've given her a loving home and she's given me much, much move love than I ever expected. I wouldn't change that for the world. Since then I've learned quite a few things, thanks to the people on SM. I now know enough so that If we do get another dog I would search rescue first and a private reputable breeder next. Not all of us here on SM have pure-bred maltese. We are multi-cultural, multi-bred maltese group who love their pets dearly. Whether they're 1/4 or whole maltese, it doesn't matter.[/B]


 :goodpost: Your dog is lucky to have you. All dogs, whether of champion extraction or puppy mill origins, deserve a chance at scoring an SM Mom!


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## theboyz (Jan 10, 2007)

I have an idea!!! 

With Joe's help maybe we could add a statement to our Banner saying "Don't buy for Puppy Mills, BYB's or Pet Stores" with a link to a pinned "How to buy your new Maltese puppy" in the Breeder section. 
We could tell prospective buyers all kinds of helpful info on age, 12 week rule, etc without mentioning any specific breeders.

New members would have info hopefully before buying and pass this on to others. Anyone searching for Maltese on the internet always get a link to this site and with this statement on our Banner would be alerted.

What do you think?


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## kathym (Aug 5, 2006)

Thank you for this post...As some of you remember i joined SM after i got my precious Baci..At the time i thought i did the right thing, did not go to a pet shop so i was safe...He came from what i thought a breeder from SC i talked to her many times and so on she sent me a pic and also i had a friend who got her pup from her..After the fact and from reading it here i knew the difference between a breeder- byb -broker-mill-etc. Baci was 8 1/2 weeks old when my friend drove down to get him..and he said all looked well he saw the Mother and other siblings..We live and learn and i thank all with real knowledge for teaching me about what i did not know and to spread the word if someone asks for help.
I would not trade Baci for the world i do worry about his health he does have LP in one knee that is being watched hopefully thats the only problem..in the beginning every little thing made me freak out that he was going to get sick and dye. Next month my baby boy is turning 4 and he is healthy thank god..
Some here do shoot from the hip and do not powder puff facts i guess because i am not the type to run i stayed and learned ...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (theboyz @ Sep 16 2009, 06:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830310


> I have an idea!!!
> 
> With Joe's help maybe we could add a statement to our Banner saying "Don't buy for Puppy Mills, BYB's or Pet Stores" with a link to a pinned "How to buy your new Maltese puppy" in the Breeder section.
> We could tell prospective buyers all kinds of helpful info on age, 12 week rule, etc without mentioning any specific breeders.
> ...



That information is already pinned in the Breeder's section. Sher did an excellent job of compiling it:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46762

SM is a wonderful source of information for people who come here before purchasing their Maltese. Unfortunately, too many people buy their puppy without doing much research beforehand. Those people usually get educated after the fact and always get a second Maltese from a reputable breeder. They often become advocates for buying from responsible breeders and help educate others about pet stores/puppy mills and backyard breeders.


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## The A Team (Dec 1, 2005)

We all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them. I, personally, am grateful that no one gave me the "lecture" when I joined 5 years go, or I may not have come back. And, yes, Archie is starting to experience problems.  But then again, I had a bichon from a BYB that I got when she was 7 weeks old and she lived to be 15 years old - with no health problems - except those that came with old age....Lacie never even had a tear stain.

It's understandable to want to educate people, or at least warn them of the potentional hidden future problems. Some people need to learn from experience....duh....why do I have to fall into that cagetory :smilie_tischkante: . :smstarz: 


Ok, I know understand more about breeding now, and if anyone asks me - I give them my opinion. But I don't believe in bashing someone because they bought a puppy. I don't believe in bashing anyone for any reason.


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

I totally agree that we need to be careful how we welcome newbies who may have gotten their precious baby from a mill or byb. The thing that I always worry about for the really young tiny ones, is the potential of hypoglycemia. I run into this at my store all the time and I really struggle as to how to handle the situation. You don't want to rob them of the joy of thier new puppy, but you do want to let them know of the potential risk and what signs to watch for, as well as feeding several small meals as opposed to just once or twice a day. (I'm speaking only of immediate health risks, not potential genetic health issues that may or may not crop up later.) I mean, wouldn't it be heartbreaking to have someone come back on the forum or back into the store after a few weeks only to relay a tragedy that could have been prevented? So how can we do that without coming across as judgemental and critical?


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Sep 16 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830368


> I totally agree that we need to be careful how we welcome newbies who may have gotten their precious baby from a mill or byb. The thing that I always worry about for the really young tiny ones, is the potential of hypoglycemia. I run into this at my store all the time and I really struggle as to how to handle the situation. You don't want to rob them of the joy of thier new puppy, but you do want to let them know of the potential risk and what signs to watch for, as well as feeding several small meals as opposed to just once or twice a day. (I'm speaking only of immediate health risks, not potential genetic health issues that may or may not crop up later.) I mean, wouldn't it be heartbreaking to have someone come back on the forum or back into the store after a few weeks only to relay a tragedy that could have been prevented? So how can we do that without coming across as judgemental and critical?[/B]


Hypoglycemia is a risk for all very young, very small puppies. When you see what might be a potential risk, why not admire the puppy, coo over how cute all tiny little baby puppies are, and then maybe turn it personal by saying something like "When I first got my puppy, because he/she was so young and little like yours, I wanted to make sure that he/she did not get hypoglycemic so I kept a close watch for the these symptoms .... and did the following ... in an effort to prevent hypoglycemia." I think when we share information from the "personal experience" angle people are generally receptive to receiving good first-hand information. Just a thought.

MaryH


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Sep 16 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830368


> I totally agree that we need to be careful how we welcome newbies who may have gotten their precious baby from a mill or byb. The thing that I always worry about for the really young tiny ones, is the potential of hypoglycemia. I run into this at my store all the time and I really struggle as to how to handle the situation. You don't want to rob them of the joy of thier new puppy, but you do want to let them know of the potential risk and what signs to watch for, as well as feeding several small meals as opposed to just once or twice a day. (I'm speaking only of immediate health risks, not potential genetic health issues that may or may not crop up later.) I mean, wouldn't it be heartbreaking to have someone come back on the forum or back into the store after a few weeks only to relay a tragedy that could have been prevented? So how can we do that without coming across as judgemental and critical?[/B]


That's exactly why I brought hypoglycemia up in my first post. I think it's important to make newbies aware of hypoglycemia in a young puppy as it can save them huge vet bills and possibly even the life of the puppy. I think if we do it in a polite, educational way instead of an accusatory fashion, we can get the information across without scaring newbies off.

Another important subject is making newbies with young puppies aware that it is dangerous to take puppies to pet stores, grooming salons, puppy classes, dog parks, etc. until they have had all their shots.

Unfortunately, it's the newbies who got their puppies from pet stores or byb's that really need our help. Those breeders just take the money and run and usually don't send the new owners home with much information or provide much support afterwards. It's generally "take the money and run". :thmbdn:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (3Maltmom @ Sep 15 2009, 11:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830249


> My problem is not so much with health issues, rather than supporting the over population, not only in this world,
> but in my house. Supporting the mills, and BYB's, while there are soooo many in the shelters, who are just as worthy.[/B]



Deb,

You have made such a great point. Like you, not only have I adopted rescue dogs but I have taken in rescue dogs to rehab and rehome. These dogs DON'T come from good, caring, loving breeders. More than anything, they were born in puppymills. Making health issues the reason why puppymills are bad can cause unwanted fallout on a couple of fronts -- first, there are enough people, myself included, who can honestly say that they have not had that experience, thus invalidating the argument; and second, causing people to hesitate adopting a dog from the overflowing shelters across the country for fear of future unaffordable vet bills and ultimate heartbreak. What I despise most is the environment that the puppymill dogs are forced to live in (especially lack of clean quarters and physical and emotional care); and that there is no concern for where the puppies eventually end up. These are not unfounded or unsupportable arguments and are much more effective in battling against the puppymills.

MaryH


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## Dixie's Mama (Mar 19, 2008)

QUOTE (chiarasdad @ Sep 14 2009, 06:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829711


> Ladies when someone joins this forum and you welcome them why would make remarks that are hurtful!! When all they are doing is joining the forum to learn more about the Maltese breed. The fact that they bought their dog from a BYB or a pet shop is an after thought. All they wanted was a dog they could love and have for there own. I read many times on this forum where this has happened. Give the newbies a break!!! Educate them later about were they bought there dog from. Many people can't or don't have the means to spend large amounts of money on the dog. They also don't really know about the breeders that are out there with top quality dogs. Many people on this forum have dogs from BYBs or Pet shops you should welcome them all with open arms!!!!!
> I know that dogs from these sources promote misery and heartache for the dogs sires and dams but the buyers really don't know any better and you should teach them later.But first and foremost help them!!! If someone on this forum had made the same reamarks to me I would have left and never come back!!!! I have 2 beautiful malts and one has better breeding then the other but I love them both the same.Just because one of my dogs is a pet and the other is a top show dog makes no difference they are both great dogs. These people should be treated the same way!!! Treat others as you would want to be treated!!! Just My Humble Opinion
> Owner of Chiara And CH Marcris Class Act[/B]



QUOTE (Starsmom @ Sep 14 2009, 09:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=829781


> I for one can feel my heart sink when I read a newbie has purchased from a BYB, or pet shop b/c the odds are pretty good that this unsuspecting person is going to experience financial hardship with huge vet bills, and heartache. Everyone is here to learn, and many have the ability to educate from personal experience.[/B]


QUOTE


> Based on my personal experience, I disagree with this statement. My first three Maltese came from rescue groups. The first one was 14 mos. when he arrived and at 12 years old he is still healthy, happy, energetic. He's 10+ lbs. with a wooly coat, longish nose and little eyes. So what! Other than yearly wellness exams and dentals he has never had any health issues. The second was 11 wks. old when she arrived. Her mom was pregnant when she was purchased at a puppy mill cull auction so I know there was no real thought given to who was bred to who and she was born in a shelter. She will be 11 yrs. old in November, had bladder stone surgery when she was 5, eats a special diet (which is not terribly expensive) and needs the occasional dental. Otherwise she, too, is perfectly healthy. The last to arrive was almost 8 when he came here. He is the only one of the 3 that really looked like a Maltese. He had horrible teeth and a slight heart murmur. By 13 yrs. old the heart murmur had worsened and required medication. He lived to a week short of 14. Not bad for dogs with "bad" starts in life. I am NOT defending BYBs and mills, but blanket statements like the above do not educate someone who already has a dog from a questionable background and, so much worse, might cause people to hesitate adopting a rescue dog.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


I totally with you Lawrence and Mary. So many members have dogs from BYB, pet stores or rescues. Some have health problems some don't. Some malts from respectable breeders have problems too. It's all been said. I love what camfan said. People don't care about how much you know they know about how much you care. We would all do well to remember that. Thank you Lawrence for the reminder.


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## Sugarbaby (May 21, 2008)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 15 2009, 10:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830218


> QUOTE (Hunter's Mom @ Sep 15 2009, 02:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830041





> I think your post is very well written (and yours too Mary). I still consider myself new since I have been here for less than a year and sometimes I still worry about the huge vet bills that could be lurking in my future because Hunter's history is so unknown but it is likely that he is not a well-bred maltese. I do appreciate being warned but when I first learned (from reading posts directed at others) of all the things I needed to be weary about I honestly considered whether my husband and I had made the right choice in adopting Hunter because I wasn't sure I would be able to provide for him in the months to come. Thankfully, he has turned out to be pretty healthy but there was a short period of time where I considered whether we should try to rehome him to someone who might have been better equipped to afford all the testing that was suggested and his potential needs.
> 
> I guess what all my blabbering is saying is that, as someone who doesn't know a lot about dogs, breeding, or vet care, hearing all of the education at once can really make you second quess your purchase or adoption! I like the idea of no education in the introduction forum unless it is specifically asked for (such as someone searching for a puppy still).[/B]


Erin,

As we all know, there are never any guarantees ... when buying a house or a car or a dog or anything else (and I am certainly not comparing buying a living breathing being to any of the others!). Whether dogs of unknown origin, not so great origin, or outstanding origin, my recipe is good food, clean water, fresh air, plenty of exercise, annual wellness exams and unending love and affection. If we provide these ingredients to all our dogs all the time the rest is in God's hands. And I don't believe God is looking at pedigrees.  

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]


Erin i just seen your post and i couldn't agree with your wording and thoughts more....way to go


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Sep 16 2009, 12:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830377


> QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Sep 16 2009, 11:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830368





> I totally agree that we need to be careful how we welcome newbies who may have gotten their precious baby from a mill or byb. The thing that I always worry about for the really young tiny ones, is the potential of hypoglycemia. I run into this at my store all the time and I really struggle as to how to handle the situation. You don't want to rob them of the joy of thier new puppy, but you do want to let them know of the potential risk and what signs to watch for, as well as feeding several small meals as opposed to just once or twice a day. (I'm speaking only of immediate health risks, not potential genetic health issues that may or may not crop up later.) I mean, wouldn't it be heartbreaking to have someone come back on the forum or back into the store after a few weeks only to relay a tragedy that could have been prevented? So how can we do that without coming across as judgemental and critical?[/B]


Hypoglycemia is a risk for all very young, very small puppies. When you see what might be a potential risk, why not admire the puppy, coo over how cute all tiny little baby puppies are, and then maybe turn it personal by saying something like "When I first got my puppy, because he/she was so young and little like yours, I wanted to make sure that he/she did not get hypoglycemic so I kept a close watch for the these symptoms .... and did the following ... in an effort to prevent hypoglycemia." I think when we share information from the "personal experience" angle people are generally receptive to receiving good first-hand information. Just a thought.

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

I like that approach Mary. It wouldn't be exactly the truth...which I really struggle with. My Zoe is from a byb before I knew better and no one ever told me about the potential dangers of a small puppy. As well as the fact that she only wanted to eat once a day. I could never get her to eat twice a day. Then after being on SM, I find out she should have been eating several times a day! It's amazing she ever survived with me as a novice mom. Guess I'll approach it from that angle so I won't be stretching the truth that way. I adopted Jett through NMR so he was a year old when I got him.

Oh...wanted to add that you can count my Zoe in the super healthy category. After I heard about the genetic issues that can happen in Maltese, I had all the tests run and she's perfectly healthy. In fact, someone who I believe should really know, told me that even in the show ring, most Malts will have a grade 1 LP and that's acceptable. My Zoe has NO signs of LP's at all. Now temperament is another thing...*sigh* but I love her so. :wub: My biggest problem with the mills is the condition they keep the dogs in as well as how they live in a small cage with little to no human contact. And what human contact they do have is not usually kind. No living creature should be forced to live that way. And then of course the inhumane way the mills around here 'dispose' of the moms and dads when a health issue should crop up or they no longer are able to be a puppy making factory. One local vet refuses to give the poor dog back when they have to tell one of worst offenders in my area that it will cost more than $50 to treat the dog. That's the dollar amount he won't go over to care for a health issue. And I WON'T say how he 'disposes' of the dog.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (Crystal&Zoe @ Sep 16 2009, 04:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=830449


> I like that approach Mary. It wouldn't be exactly the truth...which I really struggle with. My Zoe is from a byb before I knew better and no one ever told me about the potential dangers of a small puppy. As well as the fact that she only wanted to eat once a day. I could never get her to eat twice a day. Then after being on SM, I find out she should have been eating several times a day! It's amazing she ever survived with me as a novice mom. Guess I'll approach it from that angle so I won't be stretching the truth that way. I adopted Jett through NMR so he was a year old when I got him.[/B]


Good idea, Crystal. As for the eating several times a day, my feeling is that every dog is different and they help to let us know what works for them. My dogs eat twice a day and are fine. I know others who feed once a day and their dogs are healthy and happy. Same goes for free feeding. When my puppies were being weaned I fed them morning and early evening, my pet sitter fed them mid-day and I fed them a small meal just before bedtime. They basically told me when it was time to cut back to 3 meals/day by just not eating that last meal late at night. And I gradually increased their morning and evening meals while cutting back on the mid-day meal. They are 5 mos. old now and the one that I kept is eating just morning and evening and doing fine. So long as a puppy is not going hypoglycemic I don't think there is any hard and fast rule that must be followed. 

QUOTE


> Oh...wanted to add that you can count my Zoe in the super healthy category. After I heard about the genetic issues that can happen in Maltese, I had all the tests run and she's perfectly healthy. In fact, someone who I believe should really know, told me that even in the show ring, most Malts will have a grade 1 LP and that's acceptable. My Zoe has NO signs of LP's at all. Now temperament is another thing...*sigh* but I love her so. :wub: My biggest problem with the mills is the condition they keep the dogs in as well as how they live in a small cage with little to no human contact. And what human contact they do have is not usually kind. No living creature should be forced to live that way. And then of course the inhumane way the mills around here 'dispose' of the moms and dads when a health issue should crop up or they no longer are able to be a puppy making factory. One local vet refuses to give the poor dog back when they have to tell one of worst offenders in my area that it will cost more than $50 to treat the dog. That's the dollar amount he won't go over to care for a health issue. And I WON'T say how he 'disposes' of the dog.[/B]


I'm so happy to hear that Zoe is healthy. I agree with you that puppymill conditions are terrible on all levels ... environmental, physical and emotional. It breaks my heart.

MaryH


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## Canada (Jun 4, 2009)

I think that this is a wonderful forum filled with well-meaning people. :grouphug: 

I'm sure that in the vast majority of cases, no one is trying to hurt someone elses feelings.
If a newbie feels hurt because they realize after their puppy purchase, that they possibly should have made other choices:
Isn't it themselves that they are dissapointed in, not the SM forum???
It is not the well-informed members here that they should be upset with.
They (the majority of members) are adults. They made their decisions either through not knowing, or not giving enough consideration to the knowledge that they did have.
As long as we are friendly, polite, nice, considerate and welcoming....Is it so wrong to keep advocating for the voiceless? 
I know the debate, is that: We can possibly advocate later... and that we should put ourselves in the newbie's shoes.
For me personally, I WOULD WANT TO KNOW ASAP any relevant info in regards to the health of the pup. 
Also, say (hypothetically) I had just purchased a pup from a BYB or petstore, what if some of my friends were saying: "Cute pup! Is there any puppies left from that litter, so we can buy them, too?" And no one mentioned anything to that newbie? Aren't we just helping to perpuate the cycle, by staying mum for fear of offending another???
I think that if we really try to continue to be tactful, we can still get the info across...without scaring anyone away.

Also, as there are prob a lot of lurkers who haven't signed up just yet: they would be reading the intro posts. They are reading the posts from newbies who say they got a too young pup from a petstore/BYB and they are reading all the CONGRATS from us and thinking that we are giving a seal of approval to that.

Just some thoughts... Thank you very much for reading and I do see the point made by the OP... I just wanted to contribute another viewpoint to the discussion...
:flowers:


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Thank you Lawrence for your original post. This has been a very good discussion. 

When I joined in SM 2004 my first Malt, Frosty, yes from a *BYB*, was already 12 yr. old. I had gotten him at *7 wks of age*. I was totally clueless! Before finding SM I had been on MO for a while, where criticism was the way of things, so I learned quickly not to ask unless I wanted to be hurt. I was in a 'please educate me' mode when I thankfully found SM. When I found SM Frosty was 12 and he had begun to have some strange behavior that was later diagnosed as probably the result of rabies vacs, and a while later on he finally had old age related health issues and finally left us at over 15. My BYBer dog who came home too young--he was a vigorous, happy, healthy dog until old age. No genetic diseases or problems. What he missed most was learning to be a dog by staying when his mother and siblings. I didn't have any experience or prior knowledge of Maltese puppies or at what age they should be taken from their mothers. I don't even know if NutriCal for hypoglycemia was invented back in 1992. I sure didn't know about it. Being a mother of human babies I had common sense about young animals and after a little struggle getting him to eat enough he was very comfortable and happy as a tiny guy.

Because I was exposed over the years to "well" bred Malts and some of their breeders at shows, I wanted this time to have it *all*........ Temperament, standard size, perfect pedigree, coat, face....... So I got it with Shoni. Other than what has become typical--LP, high Bile Acids---he is perfect. Obviously I didn't get the perfect health, just close, with his perfect pedigree. But I did get the temperament, loving nature and appearance I was looking for. He has my heart for sure!

My thought in posting this is that those who mentioned here in this thread that some people may be scared off from the mill and BYB rescues by the heavy handed approach on education by some of our members may be true for me. Although I know better I still fell for the "gotta have the right pedigrees and breeders" in order to have a healthy Maltese theme. I would not give up Shoni for the world now, but the little ones who need help could have been one less.

For the most part my experience and education here have been only a happy time. Such a huge majority are kind loving friends here to everyone. I for the most part stay to myself and don't post a lot, but I read almost everything and in my mind have developed a lot of admiration and friendship for our members who rescue and nurse the unfortunate furbabies, and for the ones whose loving words and prayers come so genuinely in times of trouble.

I love you who are sweet and kind. I offer a huge thank you for so much. The OP has given us all good food for thought. It is always good to be reminded to be kind first and not scare folks away with too much too soon.
:sLo_grouphug3: Dee


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

QUOTE (Furbaby's Mommie @ Sep 24 2009, 09:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=833417


> Thank you Lawrence for your original post. This has been a very good discussion.
> 
> When I joined in SM 2004 my first Malt, Frosty, yes from a *BYB*, was already 12 yr. old. I had gotten him at *7 wks of age*. I was totally clueless! Before finding SM I had been on MO for a while, where criticism was the way of things, so I learned quickly not to ask unless I wanted to be hurt. I was in a 'please educate me' mode when I thankfully found SM. When I found SM Frosty was 12 and he had begun to have some strange behavior that was later diagnosed as probably the result of rabies vacs, and a while later on he finally had old age related health issues and finally left us at over 15. My BYBer dog who came home too young--he was a vigorous, happy, healthy dog until old age. No genetic diseases or problems. What he missed most was learning to be a dog by staying when his mother and siblings. I didn't have any experience or prior knowledge of Maltese puppies or at what age they should be taken from their mothers. I don't even know if NutriCal for hypoglycemia was invented back in 1992. I sure didn't know about it. Being a mother of human babies I had common sense about young animals and after a little struggle getting him to eat enough he was very comfortable and happy as a tiny guy.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:


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