# Just an observation...



## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

I've been a member of this community for a few years now and I have something I would like to say. This is not directed at anyone but an observation. I'm sure this will upset the majority of you, but I am going to say it anyway.

I am so tired of reading threads of people jumping all over someone for buying a pet from a pet store!

Yes, the majority of us know what the consequences are. However, when person after person keeps throwing out links and quotes, it does no good. It educates some but mostly offends others. How is learning happening when the poor soul who is left to defend their actions against a community of thousands? 

There has to be a better way of educating people rather than jumping into "attack" mode. I don't know what it is, but it really makes people shut down and go on the defensive. When in that state, no one learns and it is ashame when the message we want to send is such an important one. 

Please think about it.


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## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

I am a new member but have been lurking for quite some time. Thank you for posting this and I agree. There is a time and a place to give puppy mill and pet store lectures and it isn't after the fact. It should be given on the appropriate boards as well, like when someone actually posts to the breeder or puppymill boards with concerns. Or there should be a thread or page giving this vital info available on this site for someone seeking out the information to find.

I know everyone means well, but as a newcomer, it does come across harshly at times when people go into these long unasked for explanations very heatedly and after the fact. 

I don't have my puppy yet, he will arrive in July and I didn't really want this kind of topic to be my first post but I felt it was a good subject.


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

> I've been a member of this community for a few years now and I have something I would like to say. This is not directed at anyone but an observation. I'm sure this will upset the majority of you, but I am going to say it anyway.
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> I am so tired of reading threads of people jumping all over someone for buying a pet from a pet store!
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well said. once the dog is purchased, what point does it do to make the owner feel bad about it? obviously the two have already bonded to a degree, no? i agree, there must be a way to educated without making someone feel like "okay so i'm stupid and made a bad decision.... anyone else want to tell me HOW stupid? anyone?" 

i didn't do all my homework in purchasing a buttercup. she came from a broker. no one here ever attacked me for my poor "breeder research". we should treat all newbies with the same respect. 

JMHO. 

ann marie and the "i'm from a puppymill too" buttercup


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

It doesn't upset me, I totally agree with what you all have said, thank you Nicole for starting this thread & being upfront enough to share your observations.

I try not to, but if I have ever over-stepped the mark, I whole-heartedly apologise.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

Things are "thrown out, over and over again" because the "things" seem to fall on deaf ears. I, for one, appreciate the "Die Hards".

I also do not believe posters are being "jumped" on, just educated. And, in fact, doing the jumping themselves.

It's all good. This IS a forum. Some people take the "written" word in a different manner. That's life. No big deal. I, for one, do NOT want to be apart of a forum which is all "Pat on the Back". 

"Oh, congrats on your puppies". "Sorry your puppies have genetic defects, but it's not your fault"

"You did everything you could". My personal favorite, "Sorry your dog had to have his eyes removed"


Nicole ~ We NEED to get the word out. I know you feel that way. We need to eliminate ignorance.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

> We NEED to get the word out. I know you feel that way. We need to eliminate ignorance.[/B]


I agree. 

What I am saying is that often the person feels attacked and then they tend to leave the site or become angry. In either of those situations, nothing was gained. There has to be a better way to educate someone.


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## CathyB (Mar 10, 2007)

I totally agree, we do need to educate in a way that is more receptive to new comers.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Joe does have this pinned in the 'Breeder' section.

Perhaps if we compile a bunch of information from some posts, make it objective information, we could ask him to pin that too?

I'm happy to help in compiling the information if you want me to?


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## Carla (Aug 30, 2005)

> Things are "thrown out, over and over again" because the "things" seem to fall on deaf ears. I, for one, appreciate the "Die Hards".
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> I also do not believe posters are being "jumped" on, just educated. And, in fact, doing the jumping themselves.
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I agree with both of you and believe you both make valid points. We do need to keep educating people about puppymills and pet stores. However, I don't think attacking someone for their ignorance on this subject is helpful, especially after the fact. 

There is also another dilemma. How a person perceives the post. The poster may have meant to be informative, while the person reading the post perceives it as being attacked.

As adults , we are responsible for what we write and how we perceive what we read. I thinks it's fair to ask people not too attack other members. We do need to take the time to review our posts with how they might be interpreted by someone else kept in mind. At the same time people reading the posts need to step back, if they feel they are being attacked and not respond with an angry post. I think it would be better to respond with a sincere, well articulated post that expresses your opinion or thought process. The other option, that I have frequently used, is to not respond at all.

JMHO

Carla & Shotzi


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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Nicole ~ I know, but it's impossible to know how people are going to "take" advise. One poster's "attack" is anothers "advise". I, for one, prefer things "straight up", NO sugar coating.

I can't help but think, I could have saved my Samantha, had I not been on MO. Sounds strange, but thru the vets, specialists, and my VERY caring friends on MO (whose posts were, either deleted, or not allowed to help me) I often wonder. I wonder about the "Non-Approved" posts. I would not have cared how much they "attacked" me, all I cared about was my Sammie. 

If posters "feel" attacked, then so be it. We have the most AWESOME people on this forum. Are you kidding? Marj, Sher, Dee, Jaimie, the list goes on and on.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm sure some didn't like my short post regarding the gal with the maltese from the pet store who was then complaining about all it's health problems. I'm sorry but that just went all over me, even if she did feel it all worked out. Now while the dog is still sick and on meds he's being left with others? I don't get it.

I have the flu and perhaps my words are a bit curt but I wanted to get the message out there.

She may not have liked it but I'm betting others read it and got it!


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## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

> I also do not believe posters are being "jumped" on, just educated.[/B]


This forum is called spoiled maltese not stop buying puppy mill maltese. Why is it so hard to understand that its demeaning to give advice that a person didn't ask for, after the fact?

And as far as not wanting to be part of a "pat on the back forum" I would wager that is the very thing that makes people want to be here- SUPPORT not humiliation.


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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LOL ~ You signed up just for this thread? 

And, yes, STOP BUYING PUPPYMILL MALTESE!!

Also, I can, most likely guess, which forum you are from.

No big deal.


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## ShilohsMom (Jun 25, 2007)

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I don't know what forum you are referring to. I have been here reading this entire forum for quite awhile and am entitled to an opinion and a voice just like you are. Apparently the only point you can see is your own. If this is how you treat all newcomers thank goodness there is an ignore feature.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

> I know, but it's impossible to know how people are going to "take" advise. One poster's "attack" is anothers "advise". I, for one, prefer things "straight up", NO sugar coating.[/B]


The whole thing is so frustrating. I am a no sugar coating type of person too, but that is me--I have a tough outter skin. I think we must be a lot alike, however, I think we are in the minority.









I guess what I am saying is when you get right down to it, education has to appeal to the very basic human function--fight or flight. We certainly don't want people to leave the site, but putting them in the "fight" mode does no good. Think back to your early education. When a teacher yelled at you in front of the class, you didn't learn; you were more than likely embarrassed. Maybe that is how some of the people on here feel. Human emotion plays a large part in this and that may be a factor we are forgetting.

There are posters on this site who came here, after buying from a pet store, who are now educated about the problem. Let's ask them, why did they stay? Were they not attacked, or were they? Was it something someone said or posted? Did they lurk and just find information for themselves? 

I'm just thinking out loud...


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## 3Maltmom (May 23, 2005)

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LOL ~ You signed up just for this thread? 

And, yes, STOP BUYING PUPPYMILL MALTESE!!

Also, I can, most likely guess, which forum you are from.

No big deal.







[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't know what forum you are referring to. I have been here reading this entire forum for quite awhile and am entitled to an opinion and a voice just like you are. Apparently the only point you can see is your own. If this is how you treat all newcomers thank goodness there is an ignore feature.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Right On!! I have no problem with your 3rd post.









So, Keep on, Keepin' on









And yup, there is ALWAYS the "Ignore" button, so please use it


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## Bo-Bo's Mom (Jul 12, 2006)

I am not disputing puppy mills need to be shut down but I have a question (& I am NOT being confrontational). What happens to those "puppy mill" dogs? They are still out there and being sold. Do they not deserve love and affection? I am a prior owner of a "puppy mill" poodle, who's owner decided after a few years the novelty of that "cute puppy in the window" got old. My family and I loved and cared for that poodle for over 9 years. He was the best little guy in the world who showed us everyday how grateful he was for our love. Believe me...I am NOT condoning "puppy mills" and most of my dogs have been from reputable breeders, but how can we not welcome the unknowing and uneducated person who buys a pet store dog? It is hard to educate when the damage has already been done. They join sites like this after they have purchased their puppy. With any amount of luck, they will share good stories with us but for those who end up with sick dogs...how can we shut them out? Plenty of our babies have dealt with various illnesses and they are purebreds. I just think we need to keep an open mind and be kind until the day comes when there is no such thing as a "puppy mill".


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

I agree also..How many times can you keep saying it(I mean typing it) 
I brought up the age of this person because don't people relaize your talking to a 15 year old not an adult!! She made a mistake just like me and so many others but there is just a point to say "I have said all I can say and given the best info I can then STOP"and let it go.
I thank God I found SM I would not have known all I do today , I know where Nemo came from and it breaks my heart but so what I deal with it and move on and I know I will never make that mistake again, ever!!
So yes I do feel sometimes the issue is being pushed and pushed especially when people know how young a person is and continue to post over and over again, she's a kid and she feels bad enough so post your links and talk the talk but then move on, why go back for more.. believe me I was the same way and when nobody was looking I was in the puppymill section reading my heart out, thats what happens it just takes a little time for a person to see the "TRUTH". It's shocking when you first realize where your best friend came from and then you feel so bad and so irresponsible but then that goes away and the learning all you can part kicks in, for me it did anyway and I know it will and does for most.. 
It's not what you say it's how you say it!
Thanks Nicole for your post I think you posted what alot of people were feeling, I just couldn't start it, you know me







my bark is way worse than my bite









ANDREA


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## camfan (Oct 30, 2006)

Actually, my first dog, Camden (Cam for short, RIP) was from a puppymill (pet store) and he died suddenly after 1 month. Cause of death unknown. Vet determined it could have been a toxin from when we were out on a walk OR it was a congenital defect. They told me that in their 8 years of practice they had never seen anything like it. Could have just been a coincidence that he was from a puppy store, but we'll never know.

Here's my take on it--if it weren't for the "die hards" on the board, I would not have known now what I know about puppymills and would have made the same mistake twice. Were people here harsh sometimes? It appeared to be that way, and, in some cases, I'm sure they were. On a public forum you are going to find all kinds. BUT I can tell you, when Cam passed, the outpouring of kindness and generosity were amazing. I'll NEVER forget it and I'll forever be indebted to it.

The written word can EASILY be misinterpreted by a reader. You've often heard it said not to get into personal issues via email for that very reason. Same thing on a forum. I would ask that the anti-puppy mill people never stop making their case, but to do so coming from a heart of love and compassion and not judgement, cruelty or discrimination--or therefore you fall into the same category as the puppymill people themselves--cruel. Cruel is cruel. I'm not saying that I have ever seen that here--I don't believe I have. 

Having two skin kids, I know how hard it is to take criticism as a parent--especially if it's coming from someone who never had kids, who has different parenting styles, who may just be downright critical, etc. But, when it's all said and done, you can still learn something from them--of course unless they are just spouting from the mouth, etc. You all know what I mean. I'm like a momma bear when it comes to my children AND, it often surprises me that I have the same defensiveness with Ollie--because he is my baby too! But sometimes I need to hear it. Other times I know when to blow it off.

Bottom line, I hope we are all kind to each other and speak and treat each other the way we all would like to be spoken to and treated ourselves. People don't care about how much you know, they want to know how much you care.

And that is my soapbox for the day LOL!!!!!!!! (P.S. welcome to the newbies!!!!!!!!!)


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> *This forum is called spoiled maltese not stop buying puppy mill maltese.* Why is it so hard to understand that its demeaning to give advice that a person didn't ask for, after the fact?
> 
> And as far as not wanting to be part of a "pat on the back forum" I would wager that is the very thing that makes people want to be here- SUPPORT not humiliation.[/B]


wow...









i had a lengthy articulate speech prepared, however i feel that most of the important information i had complied into my post would offend the poster of the quote above.

i'll leave it at this:
nicole, i agree with you somewhat. 
while i do not agree posts which are only to degrade and humiliate a poster for the lack of pedigree should be tolerated, i also think there is a great deal of information to be learned from the people who have experienced what could happen when a poorly bred dog is a part of their lives.


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

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Carrie I also agree with you and I never told you but your posts have helped me more than you can imagine.
So thank you for that..
I just think what Nicole is trying to say once the info is posted it's not necessary to keep on saying it, thats all.
In my opinion you don't fall into this category, you have always told it like it is and I love that..
ANDREA


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## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

I have to agree. I feel like there are some here who can't let things go. I'm talking about the "Die hards" and the people they are trying to educate. When a post is getting out of hand, or someone feels like they're being attacked, or someone just WON'T see your point and keeps getting defensive, I believe it is the time to stop posting to a topic. Nothing good will come of it, only an argument, and eventual closing of the thread. 
I appreciate that EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion and should not be attacked if the opinion is different, or if they are genuinely trying to help someone. It does come across as rude or pushy sometimes when the links and "advice" won't stop coming, and when both sides of the argument will not see the other's point at all. 
Also, not everyone on here uses the same terms. That does not and should not cause anyone to think someone is a bad "dog" owner. I know that our malts are usually referred to as "furbabies" but if someone calls them dogs, it is not a reason to attack. They are dogs after all.
I do want to say thank you to those who are trying to educate and do the research about puppy mills and all things having to do with the health of our pups, and I hope we can all figure out a way to get that info across without offending or upsetting anyone.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

As one of the "diehards", I feel that it is important to keep on trying to get the message out there. Too many people still don't know that pet shop puppies come from commercial breeders aka "puppy mills".

I think it's important to differentiate between "attack" and "educate". I agree 100% that to reprimand a new member for purchasing a pet store puppy in an introductory thread would be a personal attack. On the otherhand, to discuss the subject with the intent to educate in the proper section is perfectly appropriate IMO. 

For instance, there have been two heated discussions recently about the subject in the past week. One was in the "Standard" section about adult weight. It's a fact that puppies from pet shops/puppy mills are often not within the breed standard and therefore appropriate for discussion in that section.The same thing goes with the thread posted under the "Health" section. It was a thread about a health issue caused by pet store neglect. Is it not appropriate to discuss the fact that pet store puppies often have health issues? 

The truth about pet shops and puppy mills is ugly. It does shock and it should offend. It should offend each and every one of us that dogs and cats are treated in such an inhumane manner everyday in our country. No one likes to hear it especially if they have unknowingly purchased a puppy from a pet shop. But they are the reason we must keep trying to educate people. Too many people still don't know the truth.

There will always be people who would prefer we not deal with unpleasant subjects here on Spoiled Maltese. Fortunately, Spoiled Maltese has proven over and over again that it is not a forum that censures, that it tackles the tough issues, that is commited to educate rather than simply entertain. It is not a "pat on the back" forum, thank heavens. 

The beauty of it is that Joe has set SM to accomodate everyone. For those who prefer to keep it light, they can only read posts in the Pictures, Introductory, or Anything Goes sections. For those who wish to engage in a more serious discussion of the breed there are the Health, Standard and Breeders sections. There is even an "ignore user" function to block those members whose posts you may find objectionable.


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## MickeysMom (Jun 16, 2006)

Marj, 

I completely see your point. You have obviously been trying to educate, and show people the truth about pet stores and mills. Please, no disrespect to you.

My point is, if the person being educated is frustrated and feels attacked, then what have we accomplished? If they choose to ignore the "die hards" then they will not be getting any of the important info you may all post in another topic. 
I think that when a post starts to go that direction, it would be more of a help to just stop posting to it. I am sure that anyone spending any time at all on this forum will learn that puppy mills and pet stores are the enemy.

That's just my opinion.


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## luvmyfurbaby (Feb 11, 2007)

I think it's about HOW things are said. Yes education is the key. All you can do is give advise to people after they have purchased their puppy. You need to share your experience and knowledge...not brow beat them after the fact. I have personally felt "attacked" or "reprimanded" on several occasions here. I bought Mia & Cody from a Hobby breeders you can say since they don't "show" their dogs. I also believe some "breeders" here don't "show" their dogs but that is ok since they are frequent posters here they are accepted.

It's interesting to read some of the archive post and how see how some posters critize different things and everyone applauds them and then months later change their mind and everyone applauds them again because they are frequent posters some people think they have to stand behind everything they say.

Forums are to express your experience, your opinion and beliefs. I sometimes don't post my opinion because I know the majority of posters will react negatively because I don't agree with the majority. Yesterday I did post on the thread of the girl that purchased her dog from a petstore not because she purchased it from a petstore since what is done is done but because she said her dog was a nusiance. We got things squared away via PM. I think people should think before they type on how it's going to come across as a suggestion/experience or as a reprimand or criticism. JMO

Maggie


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

> I think it's about HOW things are said. Yes education is the key. All you can do is give advise to people after they have purchased their puppy. You need to share your experience and knowledge...not brow beat them after the fact. I have personally felt "attacked" or "reprimanded" on several occasions here. I bought Mia & Cody from a Hobby breeders you can say since they don't "show" their dogs. I also believe some "breeders" here don't "show" their dogs but that is ok since they are frequent posters here they are accepted.
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> It's interesting to read some of the archive post and how see how some posters critize different things and everyone applauds them and then months later change their mind and everyone applauds them again because they are frequent posters some people think they have to stand behind everything they say.
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Ya know Maggie your so right...Is that why I love ya girl..


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> Marj,
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If you go back and read the threads I referred to, in both cases I stopped posting to it when I realized it it was futile. My purpose is not to argue, only to educate. In that spirit, I don't want to argue this point either as I think we should all agree to disagree and move on.

I do think it's important to remember when you post on a public forum, you invite comment, both good and bad.

As Joe said recently, "if you dont want opinions or replies to your posts from a wide range of knowledge and experiences, dont post in forums".


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## I found nemo (Feb 23, 2006)

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Marj,
It's not the opinions or replies it the repetiton thats all..
I think your a great source of info..
ANDREA


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

I think there are two different perceptions of how a public forum works and that is why we have a difference of opinion here.

I think the fundamental difference is that I see threads like the two I mentioned as an opportunity to educate, not the poster, but other people who may read the thread. I think some see it as an attempt to educate that particular poster which is why they perceive it as a personal rebuke. 

Another example is posting the Foxstone link about the twleve week rule. It is not to say "shame on you" to a poster who has unknowlingly gotten a puppy at only eight weeks, but an oportunity to educate potential puppy buyers about why wating to get a puppy until twelve weeks is so important.

I agree that "once the deed is done", chastising a particular poster serves no purpose. That is never my intent. My only intent is the hope that just one person will learn the facts before  purchasing a pet store puppy or getting a puppy before twelve weeks old. 

As long as people continue to buy from pet stores or get puppies too young to leave their mothers, we still have work to do as far as getting the facts out there IMO.

I do apologize to those who come here looking for support only and are offended by opposing opinions. It is truly not personal, but only done in the spirit of getting facts out to educate those who come here looking for information. There should be room for both here. That's why the "ignore user" feature is so great as you can customize SM to your personal preferences.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> I've been a member of this community for a few years now and I have something I would like to say. This is not directed at anyone but an observation. I'm sure this will upset the majority of you, but I am going to say it anyway.
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> I am so tired of reading threads of people jumping all over someone for buying a pet from a pet store!
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Nicole, with all due respect, I am surprised to see that it was you who started this thread. I remember when one of our members bred her Malt and was very worried about the mom's health and you minced no words in chastising her: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4844

I mention this to show that we all have our hot button issues and it's hard not to post when there is something we are passionate about.

Most of what I write in threads on those hot topics is for those readers to come, not the original poster. Marj has articulated very well how many of us feel and no need for me to add more.


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## msmagnolia (Sep 8, 2004)

I don't think that it is wrong to open a calm, rational discussion about this subject when an indivual poster or dog is NOT in the mix. I haven't really been on SM in the last few days to I don't know what thread has been mentioned.

Here are my ramblings on the subject, and I hope they make sense. I very rarely get involved in a heated discussion because I don't like confrontation. I have plenty of opinions but 99% of the time, once the thread gets heated and ugly I figure no one really is even paying attention to what is being said. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the fire.......that's my way. (I realize there are a couple of exceptions to my own rule, but if you look back at most of the heated posts, I'm not there....)

Fact: buying dogs from pet stores or a newspaper ad is a longstanding tradition in this country. It is not likely to change, but little by little SOME people will see the light. I'm not saying it's right....but there you go.

Fact: even dog lovers don't necessarily feel about their dogs like we feel about our dogs. As long as dogs are things to be owned they will be treated like breeding machines and disposed of at will. This is extreme, but my point is that the dog's feelings aren't all that important to most people. This community and other similar ones are not the norm!

Fact: we all have different comfort levels about what we can or will pay to purchase a dog. I have spent a lot of money purchasing purebred dogs from solid show breeders. For me it was the right thing to do. But I recognize that everyone just can't do that, yet they still want a maltese. My dogs have very nice pedigrees. I cringe a little when others have their feelings hurt because they feel the pedigree snobbery. 

I understand both sides of this thread. I agree that once the deed is done it is pointless to make someone feel bad. But sometimes a poster comes here and says they've been lurking for months and they just picked up their puppy from the pet store. Am I the only one who sits at their computer and wonders what on earth they were reading at this site? If they've been lurking for months then why have they gotten a dog from a pet store/puppymill? I admit that I don't say anything, but my eyes are rolling right out of my head. And what about the person who posts asking for advice and help and then ignores the advice? It is certainly their right to do that....but it seems to follow that they'll get some flack. I don't think that the posters here are the authority on everything maltese, but it does get a bit frustrating to give advice and then have the person asking the questions get so defensive. 

I hate for anyone to feel badly or unwelcome. I thank the orginal poster for allowing us to discuss this when a particular dog or person is not involved. I think the discussion has merit. On the whole I feel like the we still need to be reminded how important it is to think of the long term health and wellbeing of a dog.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Thank you Susan, you are the voice of reason.









I'm not disagreeing with anything said here so far. Very good discussion ladies.


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## TheButtercup (Mar 3, 2005)

> Nicole, with all due respect, I am surprised to see that it was you who started this thread. I remember when one of our members bred her Malt and was very worried about the mom's health and you minced no words in chastising her: http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4844
> 
> I mention this to show that we all have our hot button issues and it's hard not to post when there is something we are passionate about.
> 
> Most of what I write in threads on those hot topics is for those readers to come, not the original poster. Marj has articulated very well how many of us feel and no need for me to add more.[/B]


hm. way to bring up a thread from two years ago. LOLOLOL
perhaps, and this may be a big guess, perHAPS she feels this way now (again, two years later, not two days....) because she has experienced a change of heart, a change of perspective, or change of priorities. sometimes things that once got us all riled up.... no longer do. sometimes beating a dead horse (FIGURATIVELY, OF COURSE







) takes more energy out of us than its worth. what good does it do to have 40+ posts start with "well, this is what happens when you get your dog from a petstore because you didn't do your homework....." when the original poster has STOPPED READING the thread? after a few of the same posts, i know i stop reading. BUT i know there are many of you who DO read every post to every thread (and God bless you for having that kind of time on your hands) but is that the norm????? does EVERYONE do that? should we expect them to, as a condition of being part of this forum? my stupid little opinion says "um, NO".

done now.


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## PreciousPrince (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes, once someone buys a dog from a petstore/puppymill/byb or whatever, that is it for them, it's done. You can't change the past, and hopefully they will give the dog lots of love and a wonderful life. And no, they shouldn't be attacked for something they didn't know any better about at the time. But that doesn't mean the education should stop. Hopefully they will learn, like so many of us already have, and know the right places to obtain a dog in the future. 

My Perri is from a backyard breeder, I found him through an ad. At the time, I didn't know better, but looking back on it, I see SO many red flags with that breeder. Also, I just thought that a purebred Maltese was a purebred Maltese and wow, he had papers, and oh, champions somewhere in his pedigree. I probably wouldn't have known not to buy a dog from a petstore then either, and if we had any around us there's a good chance my first dog could have come from one too. 

The point is, it's important to put this information out there, and to keep on puttting it out there, Not only so that we can learn and do better next time, but to help the people here who haven't gotten a dog yet and who read this forum. It's not just about the original poster, it's about all of the people who aren't members as well, who stumble upon this site one day and start reading a few posts. Remember the recent post about someone asking about a certain breeder who looked pretty bad, and then the person who just joined saying how they were about buy from that breeder and were so glad they found the post? Anyway, the OP of threads like the one we are talking about now sometimes might give the impression that they don't "get it" and would buy from a petstore again, but that doesn't mean members should stop (kindly) trying to explain and educate, because someone else might be helped in the process.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

Nicole









Marj and all the die hards









Susan and Dee and all the voices of diplomacy









All of you deserve a hand for what you say and what you do on this forum. I for one think it is important to hear the many voices. 

Do those voices sometimes go too far and reach a point where things can get hurtful? _Probably, yes. _ 

Should we continue to pound away at the subject of puppy mills and petstores and bybs? _Absolutely, yes. _ 

Should someone come around every so often and remind us to have patience with the newbies? _Yes. _ 

I have not been a member of this forum for very long. Frankly, I was kind of over the forum thing after some bad experiences in the past. But I think this forum is very well managed (thanks to Joe)







and is _usually_ very supportive, thanks to the grand majority of the members.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> I agree that once the deed is done it is pointless to make someone feel bad. _*But sometimes a poster comes here and says they've been lurking for months and they just picked up their puppy from the pet store*._ Am I the only one who sits at their computer and wonders what on earth they were reading at this site? _*If they've been lurking for months then why have they gotten a dog from a pet store/puppymill*?_ I admit that I don't say anything, but my eyes are rolling right out of my head. And what about the person who posts asking for advice and help and then ignores the advice? It is certainly their right to do that....but it seems to follow that they'll get some flack. I don't think that the posters here are the authority on everything maltese, but it does get a bit frustrating to give advice and then have the person asking the questions get so defensive.
> 
> I hate for anyone to feel badly or unwelcome. I thank the orginal poster for allowing us to discuss this when a particular dog or person is not involved. I think the discussion has merit. On the whole I feel like the we still need to be reminded how important it is to think of the long term health and wellbeing of a dog.[/B]


very well said, susan.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=397155
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I hesitated to bring up something from so long ago but sometimes it is easier for us to understand where others are coming from if we have been there ourselves.


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## carrie (Aug 24, 2004)

> This underage poster left that ribbon on the puppy's tail for two weeks. [/B]


i'm not perfectly sure, but i vaguely recall the ribbon being on only a day or so... 

at any rate... that thread was closed, so we probably shouldn't hash it up again.









to bring this back to the subject at hand....
as i said before, i can see the standpoint of both sides of this discussion...
carry on, good people.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> Nicole
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Wow, you are a peacemaker for sure!! They should recruit you for the diplomatic corps!! Great post!!


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

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I know I personally often go back and reread prior posts when a member is having a problem and wants advice, etc. It's hard to remember everything about everyone's Malts so I go back to refresh my memory a lot.

Just like a politician's words can come back to bite him (or her!), publically voiced opinions become a matter of record no matter when they were uttered.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=397155
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To those wondering about the link...That was NOT posted by me! I became friendly with someone on the boards a few years back and she used my password to write that. I never deleted it because it serves as a reminder to ME to never become friendly with someone from a message board! That is all there is to it! What a pathetic attempt to try to discredit me. And Sher and I have even had a discussion about it in the past so why it was brought up is beyond me. 

Last thing...I think we are getting off track here. I wanted this thread to be a solution as to how we can *helpfully* educate people. I am not referring to any one thread or any one person. So let's stop rehashing other threads and let's start brainstorming ideas. I'd like something helpful to come of this.


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## Dexters my man (Mar 22, 2007)

Maybe we can have a section of information we can refer newbies to.....that way they dont have to hear post after post of what a bad thing they did and they dont have to defend themselves. They are free to go there and read the information and hopefully take something away from it! Just an idea


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> > index.php?act=findpost&pid=397210
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I had no idea that you didn't write that post. You had said you removed some posts due to having an issue with someone but that you had removed those posts. This post was still there. 

Please be assured, I had no idea that you didn't write it. If anyone had posted something I didn't write, the first thing I would do is post elsewhere in the thread to explain. I don't ever recall our discussing that particular thread. I have no recollection of that whatsoever. Obviously if I did and thought you didn't write it, I would have no reason at all to even bring it up. It would not have been at all relevant.

Like I said twice in this thread, I thought it might temper your feelings toward those who were passionate about their issues. Obviously I was very wrong and for that I sincerely apologize.


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## kiki & pippin's mom (Jun 5, 2007)

Please forgive my stupidity! I was So Wrong!







I wish I could erase my last post....how dumb can I be? Pretty DUMB!

Christina


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## joe (Jan 5, 2003)

> Should someone come around every so often and remind us to have patience with the newbies? Yes.[/B]


very well said, we have to remember, alot of us have been here or on other forums for ages, many have raised maltese for years, most of us have been through the ups and downs, spents 100's and 1000's of dollars, read books, magazines, forums, websites and more till our eyes bled, asked questions and gave answers, but in the end...

we were ALL newbies once, we have bought from BYB's, puppy stores, made mistakes, somehow hurt our babies, and found ourself wondering what to do in a situation we were not prepared for, not one of us here is perfect, nor will we ever be 

but we need to think back to those times, remember we didnt know somethings one time too and have patience and dedicate a little more time to someone new, EVEN if/when a mistake has already been made, in my opinion, especially then . i think a page or so back andrea said something to the effect "its how we say it" , i think thats very important

education is also very important but i can see where a newbie would find it somewhat unpersonable when they are bombarded with "links and cut and pastes" , the last thing i want SM to be is a "pat on the back" forum, but preluding those "links and pastes" with "i'm sorry you are going through such and such, please be aware that such and such can happen because of [insert cut and paste or link here] it just gets back to how we say it, when i was in school i failed chemistry because my teacher was "cut and paste or black and white", i couldnt learn from that, i still cant learn from that, I am an "emotional" learner as are a lot of people, you can tell me 2 things that means the exact same but if one lacks emotion, sincerity or some human touch to it i wont learn a thing, again, i think its how we say it and again especialy with someone new or young, pound and ground doesnt always work, we all need to help educate others, we all have our style of educating, but we all LEARN different, if we find ourselves in a thread trying to educate and the poster seems uncomfortable, agitated or unwilling we may need to step away before the words get heated and personal

and as i have said at least once or 100 times, we all need to remember written word lacks emotion, one word to me means something else to you, we are different ages, have different backgrounds, are from different countries and another million differences between us, consider before typing 


and thank you for keeping this thread civil, there is great postsfrom every angle, there is alot of great information in it, some interesting perspectives and things all of us can learn from, its also to the point of people picking it apart and before it turns for the worse I'm closing it









thanks,

Joe

p.s. the views and opinions of joe are joes alone and does not indicate the views and or opinions of anyone in joes house including but not limited to Sampson, Maggie and Lizzie, the views and opinions of joe are also just that and not directed at anyone, anything or any place, alot of times its just pure rambling and can be ignored anyway, please do not hold my bad speeling and inproper use of grammer and "p U nunsee ation" against me , please return to your regularly scheduled thread


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