# Breeding concern



## julia (Sep 18, 2007)

I have a male maltese less than 1 year old that I purchased from a top show breeder at a very high cost due to his excellent lineage. Most recently, he was diagnosed by a well known orthopedic vet with a luxating patella scored at 3 to 4. Surgery is recommended. It is my understanding that top breeders breed these problems out of their line. Should this have happened? Any input would be appreciated.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Unfortunately LP often happens in small breeds of any kind. Could be a genetic link, or could be from an old injury or wear and tear. I know my dog's insurance automatically excludes LP surgery in Maltese. Sounds bad enough that surgery is probably required. I would have an orthopedic surgery specialist do a 2nd opinion.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Even responsible breeders will have issues crop up. However, since testing is not popular in the breed, it is not surprising to see problems. But, the breeder should have noted the patella issue and told you (assuming they were not created by injury). I would get an opinion from a surgeon and proceed from there.


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## Tina (Aug 6, 2006)

As a breeder, and other breeders try to elimintate any and all health problems. Maltese have a very small gene pool. If you eliminate every animal that has some sort of health issue, you would not have any Maltese. As with people we inherit our genes but you don't always know what life is going to throw at you. When I am talking about Maltese having a small gene pool I am not including badly bred Maltese. Maltese, as with most, toy dogs, have problems with luxating patellas. It is because the groove that holds the ligament in place is so shallow that it does not hold it in place and it allows it to slip to the sides, it can go to the inside (medial) or it can go to the outside (lateral). 

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.p...;C=0&A=2448


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Often loose patellas cannot be felt or diagnosed until close to
a year old. Unfortunately, you will find patella problems in
many good lines at varying degrees.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

> Often loose patellas cannot be felt or diagnosed until close to
> a year old. Unfortunately, you will find patella problems in
> many good lines at varying degrees.[/B]


I am interested in the research on this. Do you have references? 

Hereditary LP are present at birth. They tend to worsen with age (the more the patella moves out of the groove, the more worn down the area gets and the easier it is for it to happen again). LP due to injury are a different story. Symptoms appear suddenly and, upon surgical repair (if done in a timely manner), the joint does not show that long-term wear and tear. 

I've had experience with both. One a mild LP that worsened with age and was fixed. The other with injuries which I had repaired promptly. The joints are in excellent condition because it was an injury and did not experience that long-term wear and tear.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

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Evidence of loose patellas often shows up as the pup grows and more
weight is placed on the legs. This isn't news. I've had vets go over
a dog at three months that showed little or no sign of movement of
the patella and 6 months later show some change. I've heard of 
breeders in yorkies find this too.


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## jadey (Nov 2, 2006)

One of our babies came from a great breeder and when he came home at 12 weeks he was diagnosed by our vet to be a grade 3-4 on both knees. til this day i never regret bringing him home he is everything i wanted in a maltese. But to answer your question, it happens. My other baby came from another top breeder and he has a 3-4 on one of his knees and it was diagnosed at around 5 months i think it was. I'm not blaming anyone but it happens. Beside that they are very healthy.


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## yorkieville (May 9, 2005)

> One of our babies came from a great breeder and when he came home at 12 weeks he was diagnosed by our vet to be a grade 3-4 on both knees. til this day i never regret bringing him home he is everything i wanted in a maltese. But to answer your question, it happens. My other baby came from another top breeder and he has a 3-4 on one of his knees and it was diagnosed at around 5 months i think it was. I'm not blaming anyone but it happens. Beside that they are very healthy.[/B]


I don't want to start a controversy, but a 'great' breeder wouldn't send a puppy home at 12 weeks with grade 3-4 LP in both knees. You're right, LP happens but thankfully, many breeders are no longer considering even stage 1 LP to be acceptable.

Curious to know what did both breeders do about the LP?


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## jadey (Nov 2, 2006)

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I understand what you mean but to me she's a great breeder. We were both shocked, I couldnt believe it too when the vet told us. But everyone was very supportive with my decision of keeping him. She insisted me to bring him back so she can take care of him. She honestly didnt know he had it. I know that for a fact she didnt do it on purpose. He stayed and I am very lucky to have him. He's perfect and we were talking about how he had such a beautiful coat, temperment. I would not hesitate to go back to her and get a 2nd puppy. And to answer your question, she stopped breeding his parents all together. It was the 1st and last litter with his parents. It was an honest mistake. 

My second pup who has it on one knee has a brother whos actually a champion. Its clear he doesnt have LP but my pup does. So it happens. 

I didnt want to post about this, but I wanted the orginal poster to know that it happens thats all. Both breeders breed for the betterment of the breed. And I respect both breeders and will always consider them top on my list. i hope i explained everything


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## jadey (Nov 2, 2006)

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Brit I agree with what you just said. He didnt show any sign of patella and his breeder had him checked twice because LP was an issue with me. He passed with flying colors however at 5 months it showed up. I thought it was my fault somewhow maybe the wood floors in the living room etc.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

Here is an excellent post about patellas from Tonia from Rhapsody Maltese, a top Maltese breeder. It was originally posted here on SM in this thread:

http://spoiledmaltese.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7167



> The study of "Genetics" is a very incomplete science. We cant stop ALL kinds of known hereditary problems in people, and billions and billions of dollars are spent in medical research. In dogs, there just isnt the money, time or interest to be able to make such a complicated issue that simple. Researchers cannot identify that luxating patellas ARE in fact hereditary let alone be able to advise us on how to remove the health issue from our breeding programs.
> 
> "simply fix the parents"? There is nothing simple about "fixing" the parents to try and eliminate health issues. There would be no dogs left to breed. Patellas are just ONE of hundreds of issues that we have to keep in mind when breeding dogs. I, for one, am MUCH more worried about the life threatening ones first and for most.
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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

If you cannot luxate a patella at 12 weeks and the dog has symptoms at 5 months, something happened IMO. It also depends on your vet - how good are they at orthopedics? It isn't always easy to palpate a wiggly pup. If I'm thinking of keeping a dog intact, I have them checked by an ortho soon after they come to my home. Injuries happen in a second.


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## ClaBec Maltese (Feb 19, 2007)

I want to add that wood, laminate or tile floors are not good for puppies patellas. They slip on them and it can cause an injury. It makes total since when you see them at young ages playing and being rough.


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## yorkieville (May 9, 2005)

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Thank you for explaining. I was just shocked that he passed her Vet exam because Grade 3-4 is usually pretty obvious, emphasis on 'usually'. I'm assuming he has had the surgery? Did your breeder pay for it? I don't blame you a bit for keeping him, I'd have done the same.

Kudos to your breeder for no longer breeding his sire & dam. I give her a great deal of credit for that decison.

I hope someday they figure out what causes genetic LP.


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## julia (Sep 18, 2007)

Thank you to everyone who replied. We learned a lot from the responses. We just want our beautiful puppy to be well no matter what it takes. We are going for a second opinion next week. Thanks again!


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## jadey (Nov 2, 2006)

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I understand what you mean but to me she's a great breeder. We were both shocked, I couldnt believe it too when the vet told us. But everyone was very supportive with my decision of keeping him. She insisted me to bring him back so she can take care of him. She honestly didnt know he had it. I know that for a fact she didnt do it on purpose. He stayed and I am very lucky to have him. He's perfect and we were talking about how he had such a beautiful coat, temperment. I would not hesitate to go back to her and get a 2nd puppy. And to answer your question, she stopped breeding his parents all together. It was the 1st and last litter with his parents. It was an honest mistake. 

My second pup who has it on one knee has a brother whos actually a champion. Its clear he doesnt have LP but my pup does. So it happens. 

I didnt want to post about this, but I wanted the orginal poster to know that it happens thats all. Both breeders breed for the betterment of the breed. And I respect both breeders and will always consider them top on my list. i hope i explained everything 
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you for explaining. I was just shocked that he passed her Vet exam because Grade 3-4 is usually pretty obvious, emphasis on 'usually'. I'm assuming he has had the surgery? Did your breeder pay for it? I don't blame you a bit for keeping him, I'd have done the same.

Kudos to your breeder for no longer breeding his sire & dam. I give her a great deal of credit for that decison.

I hope someday they figure out what causes genetic LP.
[/B][/QUOTE]

same here i hope they figure it out too  yes he had the surgery after a year, the surgery itself is pretty intense in my opinion. we went to the hope center with recommendations with my vet. they were great. i paid~ the only thing that got to me was the healing time. also a lot of the sm members helped me a lot during his 1st week, it was so painful seeing him in pain.

my vet was the one who told me about his "luxated" patella at 5 months he went in to do some blood work and she called telling me daeroni has a grade 3. I asked her how could it be that he has a grade 3. I also asked if it could be him playing with his siblings or the wood floors or what! she said it couldnt be that and she admited that she must have missed it when he 1st came in. now im not saying your wrong or right cause i dont know much about LP. but when i heard he had grade 3, i thought it must have been my fault since she told me he didnt have it before. So we took a trip to Dr L. at the hope center again. She strongly feels it is genetic and it just didnt show at that time and now its there. and when she thinks its time to get it and if he gets it with her approval, then i will let you know if its my fault or genetics.i forgot to add he came little after 4 months. he wasnt 12 weeks when he came he was the last one.

I know the woodfloors are really bad and I feel bad that we dont have carpet everywhere in the house. but we do put rugs down for them where the wood floors are.


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## yorkieville (May 9, 2005)

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Thank you for explaining. I was just shocked that he passed her Vet exam because Grade 3-4 is usually pretty obvious, emphasis on 'usually'. I'm assuming he has had the surgery? Did your breeder pay for it? I don't blame you a bit for keeping him, I'd have done the same.

Kudos to your breeder for no longer breeding his sire & dam. I give her a great deal of credit for that decison.

I hope someday they figure out what causes genetic LP.
[/B][/QUOTE]

same here i hope they figure it out too  yes he had the surgery after a year, the surgery itself is pretty intense in my opinion. we went to the hope center with recommendations with my vet. they were great. i paid~ the only thing that got to me was the healing time. also a lot of the sm members helped me a lot during his 1st week, it was so painful seeing him in pain.

my vet was the one who told me about his patella at 5 months he went in to do some blood work and she called telling me daeroni has a grade 3. I asked her how could it be that he has a grade 3. I also asked if it could be him playing with his siblings or the wood floors or what! she said it couldnt be that and she admited that she must have missed it when he 1st came in. now im not saying your wrong or right cause i dont know much about LP. but when i heard he had grade 3, i thought it must have been my fault since she told me he didnt have it before. So we took a trip to Dr L. at the hope center again. She strongly feels it is genetic and it just didnt show at that time and now its there. But she doesnt feel he needs the surgery yet. and when she thinks its time to get it and if he gets it with her approval, then i will let you know if its my fault or genetics. i forgot to add he came little after 4 months. he wasnt 12 weeks when he came he was the last one.

I know the woodfloors are really bad and I feel bad that we dont have carpet everywhere in the house. but we do put rugs down for them where the wood floors are.
[/B][/QUOTE]

In my oh-so-humble opinion, I think your breeder should have paid for the LP surgery, and I know quite a few Yorkie show breeders that feel this way. But, good for you that you loved your little one enough to pay for the surgery. It's so hard watching them when they are in pain.

And now the little one that came to you at 4 months, since Dr. L at the Hope Centers believes it's genetic, you can't blame yourself. OH, I know what you mean about wood floors. One of my Yorkies injured her knee, running and twisting it just right, and she had surgery. It was not LP, but an injury that is similar to LP. There is so much confusion about LP, because there actually is an injury that will appear to some Vets to be LP, but a good orthopedist can tell the difference.

Yes, the surgeries are pretty complex and I was grateful my Vet was abe to fix my girls knee so she could still run and play. He did such a good job that even he has to look at her chart to tell which knee he repaired. We were truly to blame for her injury. We saw it happen. Now we have carpeting.


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## yorkieville (May 9, 2005)

> Thank you to everyone who replied. We learned a lot from the responses. We just want our beautiful puppy to be well no matter what it takes. We are going for a second opinion next week. Thanks again![/B]


I'll be praying that it's not LP.
Sheila


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## jadey (Nov 2, 2006)

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i apologize for hijacking the thread hehe sorry!!! but yes I agree I hope and pray its not LP! :grouphug:


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## BrookeB676 (Oct 17, 2004)

I just wanted to add that we purchased Haley, our almost 5 year old beautiful yorkie, from an excellent yorkie breeder. Haley has great lines, etc. She has been perfectly healthy since the day we got her, so I can't complain, although she does have socialization issues and LP's on both knees- grade 5 that is. Maya maltese actually also has LP, a lower grade, but wasn't diagnosed until she was around 2 years. At 8 months, her knees were 100% fine- no popping. I have seen numerous of friends that own yorkies where the patella issue has come up at 1 year old with one friend having her yorkie diagnosed at 4 years old! My point is that this is something that is common and is not 100% attributable to genetics and/or breeding programs (IMO). Now, your girl being 12 weeks old and diagnosed, that is a little different. Haley our yorkie also was diagnosed young, and I have had the following experience:

I have had several vets look at Haley's knees and have done a lot of reserach on the subject and wanted to add that Haley has still not had surgery. Not because we can't afford it or because she doesn't neccesarily need it. But, you will find that many surgeons want to rush into surgery immediately. Haley has never shown sign of pain, limping, discomfort etc. We have stairs for her everywhere and never require her to jump (and she is so small that it is manageable as she doesn't like to jump). She runs outside on the grass (LOVES it) and acts normal. She also gets glucosamine and chroindroiton supplements that I believe help. I have thought about surgery and will absolutely pursue it the second I feel she needs it. The problem with surgery is that it automatically causes arthritis and possible other future issues- so there really is no 100% fix for LP's. But, LP's also cause arthritis, so there is definitely a lot to think about. I hate to put her through that before she is in any pain or before a vet says it's an absolute must. 

It sounds like your babies are still young. My personal recommendation would be to monitor your maltese until she gets a little older and see how she is. A lot of babies live fine with no pain and some lower grades are manageable withour surgery. Make sure you monitor her jumping and try and keep her on softer surfaces like carpet (tile, wood, etc is harder on their knees. Haley actually refuses to walk on our food floors anyways, that and wet grass LOL). If it makes you feel comfortable, go to an orthopedic specialist that is board certified just to see what they think. Keep in mind the biases of doctors, especially those who try to take advantage of the uninformed. This is an expensive and very invasive surgery. The last thing I want to emphasize is that I am absolutely not against surgery, when it's neccesary. But, I am just saying to read and learn all you can and look out for you and your baby. Also, if you do decide to pursue surgery, pm Tamizami, her little Shiva and patella surgery and it seems like she had an excellent set-up for her recovery. I know I am going to rack her brain when the time comes


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