# Puppy Classes?



## Snow White (Dec 6, 2009)

Just wondering how many of you had your baby as a puppy go to puppy classes? Is it really necessary if my Jeter is I believe pretty well adjusted and trained. He is not shy, nor aggressive, plays nicely when and who is he supposed to and plays rough with my husband who likes to rough house with him a bit. Jeter is exposed to children and loves them. He is for the most part pee pad trained (of course has his moments and could get better). He is a good boy!  He of course follows me around and at my feet constantly. But when I go upstairs and I tell him to stay he waits at the bottom of he stairs for me. The very first couple days when we first got him he would come upstairs on his own but I don't want him going on the stairs and he knows not to. He of course was always exposed to other liter mates with his breeder up to age 15 and half weeks of age. He is so good during his baths, not a shake and no mess at all. Seriously I don't think I could have asked for a well behaved little guy. 


What else do they really teach them at the classes that is beneficial? I really don't mind and would love to take him if it's good for him. One thing that concerns me is that he is now 17 weeks old but so little 2.5lbs. I want to make sure he is safe.

So I'd like to know if you did take yours to classes? What age? What did you gain from it? How often? How many sessions?


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

There are some very knowledgeable trainers here who will comment (Jackie, Mandy, please chime in), but I just wanted to say I love training my dogs! I only use positive training techniques, so I only use trainers that use these methods.

We took basic puppy classes when I first got Stuart (6 months old), but its better to start as soon as possible. Its great for getting them out and comfortable with other dogs in outside situations. Basic commands such as sit, down, stay, recall are typically taught. I've also had private training sessions for behavioral issues as they crop up. My favorite class by far was the Canine Good Citizens test prep course, basic puppy training is a pre-req for this class. And I've purchased many training books to do additional training at home. I think training not only makes your dog well-behaved, but also more confident and it strengthens the bond between you and your dog (which I didn't think was possible when I first embarked on training). It also prevents many unwanted behaviors that crop up as a result of boredom (incessant barking, destruction, obsessive chewing, etc.) Last but not least, you will be amazed at how intelligent your dog is, training really gives you more insight to their mind.

Good luck with Jeter, I'm sure you will enjoy puppy class and more!


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

For some dogs it is more necessary than others, but frankly I think the experience is pretty much always worth it so long as you find a good place to train. It teaches you how to communicate with your dog and there isn't much that is more valuable than that when you are at the start of your relationship. I wish more people would work with their small dogs. I think it enhances their lives and their relationships with both humans and other canines. :smartass:

Sorry: edited to add some more answers to your questions:

Cadeau started at 13 weeks. He went to 8 sessions. Cadie was older maybe 16 weeks and did 6 sessions.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

You are hitting the end of a very critical socialization period. I would get into a basic or puppy obedience class that does not allow free for all play NOW. Socialization is an ongoing thing and providing positive experiences early in life is essential to a well-adjusted adult. If you do not continue to seek out new people, places, animals, etc. don't expect socialization to magically "stick". A class with other dogs under leash control is a very unique experience for your dog to be around a variety of other dogs in a novel environment with all sorts of novel experiences. It is truly priceless compared to the small fee for the class. 

It is a myth that you socialize a puppy and then they are "socialized" for life. It is a constant process that you must actively engage in even past the critical period ending at 18 weeks. Soon your dog will enter a fear period and it is so important for your dog to have good experiences during that time as well. 

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/dogsocialization.pdf

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...cialization.pdf

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...socializing.htm

Edited to add my pups go as soon as they get home and pretty much continue most of their lives...classes are fun and such wonderful bonding.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

It is absolutely essential that a dog take obedience training, imo. My Nikki has always been very mellow, obedient, and sweet, but we enrolled her in obedience class anyway, but we had to wait until she was about 8 months old because of budget. There are so many positives about taking these classes, providing you find a good trainer and a good class.

I too only use positive obedience training methods. That is the only way to go, especially with a toy breed. 

Puppy classes are just as much for the owner as the dog. The classes train both you and your dog how to be "in tune" with each other, how to act confidently and calmly around other dogs and people, and how to immediately obey in dangerous situations. It really helps you bond with your dog, and if you continue and practice the training after the classes are over, your dog eagerly looks forward to each session and it gives your dog the opportunity to use his/her brain. 

I cannot say enough good things about puppy or adult dog training classes. It is an investment that is well-worth every penny, and it is great fun! If I could afford it, I'd enroll Nikki in more classes in a heartbeat.


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## princessre (Dec 23, 2008)

We learned much more in private lessons than we did in group puppy training. But I think that depends on how good the class is vs. how good your private instructor is.


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

I say take a puppy to training as soon as you can. Like Jackie mentioned, you want to make sure the dogs don't have free for all play. They need to learn to pay attention to you in distracting and novel environments as well as be socialized to several situations in a positive way. 

I think training classes are a great way to bond with your dog and work their minds. Mine start in puppy and have continued on from there. Find a good positive trainer and you never know how far you'll go! 

As for privates: you probably learn more because it is one on one. However a group environment, I feel, is essential for the dogs. Training isn't just for the pups, a lot of it is for the owners - they're more difficult to train!


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

Pepper took her first canine good citizen classes beginning at 14 or 15 weeks. There is NO free playtime, which was good cuz there were a few other dogs and all were bigger than Pepper (older too). In fact, no one was allowed off leash at all, thankfully. She excelled and learned the basics mentioned above, but also learned "leave it/take it", how to wait at doors and a couple other things that are very nice for a pup to know. It's well worth the investment and she continues to learn even now..we took another class (click-a-trick)..and I train her here at home all the time myself. Take the plunge, girl, you won't regret it.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

When done in the right environment, veterinary behaviorists highly recommend puppy classes. Be sure to read the American Veterinary Society for Animal Behavior (AVSAB) link that Jackie posted.

Good instructors are essential to any obedience class. If you start a class and don't like the instructor, try another one.

I attended a great puppy class with Karli. We started with name recognition for puppy, leadership exercises for the owner, and exercises to help puppy to focus. We covered potty training, and grooming (including clipping nails), and how to re-direct puppy chewing. Then we started on obedience basics. 








Joy


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## makettle29 (Nov 12, 2005)

Puppy training is essential, and the sooner the better. I started with watching and following a simple video that my vet gave me. Later when my pups were fully vacinated and older (6 months) I enrolled them in a puppy class with me. They have also have additional training at their daycare. It's training that requires you to participate as well!

good luck and :wub: mary anna herk and theena


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## cleooscar (May 28, 2008)

We took all our 3 fluffs to puppy classes and basic obedience. Raine & Napoleon didn't like their puppy classes that much as they were rather shy but they enjoyed their obedience classes (I think because they were a little older by then 8 months for Raine and 11 months for Napoleon). We even got Pasha to do intermediate obedience and agility 1 & 2. We just signed Pasha up for Agility 3 this January. I found it was a good experience for them and for me as handler--we bonded even more and helped train me to better handle them. :biggrin:


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## revakb2 (Sep 8, 2006)

Bogie started Basic Obedience at 7 months. He is five and still goes to classes. He now does Agility. We do it because we both have fun.
Cassie is a rescue, and she started obedience about a month after I got her. She was very shy and timid. She has now gained a great deal of confidence, and is much more social. She will also continue with classes. Just like with people, I think dogs get a great deal of satisfaction out of learning and knowing they can do well. As with children, a well behaved dog is a pleasure to be around.


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## setell (Oct 10, 2009)

I was thinking how useful puppy classes would be for Charlie. I was going to get him to go to classes but I have a god awful two choices if I want training classes. It’s either Petsmart or this local private place. Well both had bad times for classes starting in November when I was looking to take Charlie to them since he was done his vaccines in early November. So I held off till December to ask when the new classes start. ‘sigh’ he’s too old to be in puppy classes now and must go to the beginner classes. He’s just 6 months old  At least we’ve been training him his sit, stay, come, off, out, leave it, hand hand and he’s been really well with them. Hehe he’s very good with his hand hand (our version of a handshake but he taps our hand twice on command with his paw). My fiancée tried teaching him bang bang (playing dead) on command too but that is a work in process. Something else, I’m not a fan of treat training and a lot of trainers use treats. I’ve gotten Charlie to be fairly good without using treats and I hate to take him to class and confuse him with treat training. For me, the puppy classes would be the socialization vs the training. I don’t want Charlie to be a rude dog when he meet other dogs but during our walks the bigger dogs ignore him. Do you guys have this problem too? Bigger dogs ignoring our little guys?


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## MandyMc65 (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE (setell @ Dec 29 2009, 12:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=867914


> I was thinking how useful puppy classes would be for Charlie. I was going to get him to go to classes but I have a god awful two choices if I want training classes. It’s either Petsmart or this local private place. Well both had bad times for classes starting in November when I was looking to take Charlie to them since he was done his vaccines in early November. So I held off till December to ask when the new classes start. ‘sigh’ he’s too old to be in puppy classes now and must go to the beginner classes. He’s just 6 months old  At least we’ve been training him his sit, stay, come, off, out, leave it, hand hand and he’s been really well with them. Hehe he’s very good with his hand hand (our version of a handshake but he taps our hand twice on command with his paw). My fiancée tried teaching him bang bang (playing dead) on command too but that is a work in process. Something else, I’m not a fan of treat training and a lot of trainers use treats. I’ve gotten Charlie to be fairly good without using treats and I hate to take him to class and confuse him with treat training. For me, the puppy classes would be the socialization vs the training. I don’t want Charlie to be a rude dog when he meet other dogs but during our walks the bigger dogs ignore him. Do you guys have this problem too? Bigger dogs ignoring our little guys?[/B]


A beginner class is good, even though it's not a puppy class. They will teach him the same things as a puppy class (more than likely) but exclude the free for all play - which is not necessarily a bad thing. The goal is to have your dog focus on you with distractions and to know other dogs around doesn't always mean play time! If it's a good class, they will learn to behave on a leash and in general around other dogs. 

Why are you against treat training? If you work you want to be paid, right? So does your dog. The easiest, quickest and generally most reinforcing thing you can "pay" your dog is treats. You can use the treats and phase them out to use other types of reinforcement (tug game, open the door, scratch behind the ears, etc..) after he knows what it is you want. Mine have all been clicker trained (positive reinforcement) and I don't have to have treats at all times. Here's the post I did the other day of Jax's tricks. These were all taught using a clicker & treats - but notice he doesn't get a treat after everything he does. Jax is 2 1/2 and I "found" clicker training when he was about 1 1/2. Last night I taught him to open his crate door, go inside and shut it within 5 minutes - all using a clicker & treats!


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## thach8 (Nov 28, 2007)

QUOTE (MandyMc65 @ Dec 29 2009, 04:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=867924


> A beginner class is good, even though it's not a puppy class. They will teach him the same things as a puppy class (more than likely) but exclude the free for all play - which is not necessarily a bad thing. The goal is to have your dog focus on you with distractions and to know other dogs around doesn't always mean play time! If it's a good class, they will learn to behave on a leash and in general around other dogs.
> 
> Why are you against treat training? If you work you want to be paid, right? So does your dog. The easiest, quickest and generally most reinforcing thing you can "pay" your dog is treats. You can use the treats and phase them out to use other types of reinforcement (tug game, open the door, scratch behind the ears, etc..) after he knows what it is you want. Mine have all been clicker trained (positive reinforcement) and I don't have to have treats at all times. Here's the post I did the other day of Jax's tricks. These were all taught using a clicker & treats - but notice he doesn't get a treat after everything he does. Jax is 2 1/2 and I "found" clicker training when he was about 1 1/2. Last night I taught him to open his crate door, go inside and shut it within 5 minutes - all using a clicker & treats![/B]


I love Jax's tricks video. I hope to begin clicker training with Diamond eventually as well. Right now I just use a 'GOOD Diamond' excited voice to signal she's done something wonderful. But, I like the consistency of clickers better. 

I took Diamond for a Petsmart puppy class when she was around 8mths. If anything, it was helpful in getting her exposed to other dogs as my parents live in a secluded, subruban neighbourhood. Diamond thinks she owns the block since she doesn't interact with many other dogs. 
I wasn't really pleased with the puppy training classes. I found that the activities were not focused enough, and not enough guidance was offered for specific inquiries regarding basic training (I know you can't expect much....which is why in hindsight I would have used the money for a more intense/helpful class). I also realize that consistency is key, and that Diamond wasn't trained consistently between her classes which hindered her development.

Any class is helpful in getting your dog exposed to others. Diamond may serve as a cautionary tale. Unfortunately, Diamond is not the most friendly dog with others while walking, and I think that's partly because she hasn't been given enough opportunities to interact with other doggies.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

QUOTE (setell @ Dec 29 2009, 03:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=867914


> I was thinking how useful puppy classes would be for Charlie. I was going to get him to go to classes but I have a god awful two choices if I want training classes. It’s either Petsmart or this local private place. Well both had bad times for classes starting in November when I was looking to take Charlie to them since he was done his vaccines in early November. So I held off till December to ask when the new classes start. ‘sigh’ he’s too old to be in puppy classes now and must go to the beginner classes. He’s just 6 months old  At least we’ve been training him his sit, stay, come, off, out, leave it, hand hand and he’s been really well with them. Hehe he’s very good with his hand hand (our version of a handshake but he taps our hand twice on command with his paw). My fiancée tried teaching him bang bang (playing dead) on command too but that is a work in process. Something else, I’m not a fan of treat training and a lot of trainers use treats. I’ve gotten Charlie to be fairly good without using treats and I hate to take him to class and confuse him with treat training. For me, the puppy classes would be the socialization vs the training. I don’t want Charlie to be a rude dog when he meet other dogs but during our walks the bigger dogs ignore him. Do you guys have this problem too? Bigger dogs ignoring our little guys?[/B]



In three out of four puppy/obedience classes with my dogs, we started out using treats at the beginning of the classes, then gradually phased out the treats.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Dogs learn by the consequence of their behaviors. If something good occurs, the behavior is more likely to happen again. Something negative, less likely (at least in front of you). Therefore, training your dog by telling them what they do right is more effective by training them by telling them what they do wrong. 

Good consequences or positive reinforcers can be anything a dog finds rewarding - attention, praise, food, toys. The flaw with training that insists on "no treats" is that for many dogs, the no treat reinforcers are not strong enough for them. 

Any reinforcer needs to be put on a variable schedule of reinforcement once the behavior is consistent and on cue. VSR makes a behavior STRONGER (the classic example is slot machines in vegas...because the reward comes every once in a while, it strengthens someones behavior to sit and play). Any trainer that does not address this and tells you food is always a must needs some continuing education. 

Soda Pop is a service dog and competes in obedience. He does not need treats while working or in the ring because of the principle above. I will randomly once in a while give him a reward while he is working and that INCREASES his drive to work. 

A good book that explains the basics of how dogs learn is Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash.


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## setell (Oct 10, 2009)

Well I don't want to get into a heated debate as to which training method is better. We all have our personal preferences and for us Charlie is doing well without treats. If he's doing what he's being told to do than I see no extra benefit to treat training since we've started him on a no treat training regime since day 1. As long as the final outcome is a well behaved dog than I see no reason to really say which training method is a flaw or which isn't.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (setell @ Dec 30 2009, 08:08 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=868157


> Well I don't want to get into a heated debate as to which training method is better. We all have our personal preferences and for us Charlie is doing well without treats. If he's doing what he's being told to do than I see no extra benefit to treat training since we've started him on a no treat training regime since day 1. As long as the final outcome is a well behaved dog than I see no reason to really say which training method is a flaw or which isn't.[/B]


Perhaps you missed the point of explaining how dogs learn, not whether treats are better or not. The point is you must have an adequate reinforcer for successful training. You also must put that reinforcer on a VSR to INCREASE the likelihood of a behavior occurring. Giving your dog a treat every time OR giving your dog pats or praise every time is not the best way to keep a behavior strong. 

I disagree that it doesn't matter which training method so long as the final outcome is what you want. I COULD train your dog with a shock collar and have your dog do what I want. That doesn't make the method humane or ok in my eyes (nor is it necessary in the least). The method is just as important as the results. Ensuring that we are being fair to our dogs through an understanding of how they learn is essential to not only effective training, but humane and kind training. 

I personally prefer to use toys as reinforcers whenever possible.


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## setell (Oct 10, 2009)

QUOTE (JMM @ Dec 30 2009, 10:42 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=868186


> Perhaps you missed the point of explaining how dogs learn, not whether treats are better or not. The point is you must have an adequate reinforcer for successful training. You also must put that reinforcer on a VSR to INCREASE the likelihood of a behavior occurring. Giving your dog a treat every time OR giving your dog pats or praise every time is not the best way to keep a behavior strong.
> 
> I disagree that it doesn't matter which training method so long as the final outcome is what you want. I COULD train your dog with a shock collar and have your dog do what I want. That doesn't make the method humane or ok in my eyes (nor is it necessary in the least). The method is just as important as the results. Ensuring that we are being fair to our dogs through an understanding of how they learn is essential to not only effective training, but humane and kind training.
> 
> I personally prefer to use toys as reinforcers whenever possible.[/B]


Which training method to use is up to the owner. If they choose to use the inhumane way of a shock collar than it's their choice as well. It doesn't mean I agree with it. I just recognize that I don't try to influence others parenting to what I believe is the ONLY way to a effective outcome. Like another poster pointed out that we all like to be paid when we do something. Well in the animal kingdom do you really think the leader of the pack will give out a treat to the followers every time a command is issued? I use praises as my positive reinforcement to reinforce a command and it's worked well for us. Regardless if I want to use a treat or not is solely my decision and if you are implying I am inhumane for not giving treats than I think you need to know there are way worse methods of training. One of which you’ve pointed out is the shock collar. You seem to think that VSR is the ONLY way to an effectively well trained dog.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (setell @ Dec 30 2009, 10:49 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=868210


> Which training method to use is up to the owner. If they choose to use the inhumane way of a shock collar than it's their choice as well. It doesn't mean I agree with it. I just recognize that I don't try to influence others parenting to what I believe is the ONLY way to a effective outcome. Like another poster pointed out that we all like to be paid when we do something. Well in the animal kingdom do you really think the leader of the pack will give out a treat to the followers every time a command is issued? I use praises as my positive reinforcement to reinforce a command and it's worked well for us. Regardless if I want to use a treat or not is solely my decision and if you are implying I am inhumane for not giving treats than I think you need to know there are way worse methods of training. One of which you’ve pointed out is the shock collar. You seem to think that VSR is the ONLY way to an effectively well trained dog.[/B]


Instead of picking an argument with me (which I never picked with you nor did I tell you your method was wrong), why don't you read the information for what it is - a brief explanation of how dogs learn. Once again, the point of my responses is HOW DOGS LEARN. Not you. Not your methods. In fact, I had your reinforcer on the list of common reinforcers...perhaps you should actually read what I wrote instead of assuming an attack. If you chose not to want to learn about how your dog see's the world, that is up to you. You don't have to read it. But don't attack information just because you have chosen to see it as not agreeing with you (when it is actually doing the opposite). 

VSR is the best way to use reinforcers in an effective manner. This is based on science, not my opinion. I can train a dog with only aversives or reinforce every time or physically repeat behaviors until the dog accepts...those are all ways to train. VSR is a way to manage use of reinforcers in training and daily life. This answers your lack of favor of always using/depending on treats, and it also addresses how you can best use the reinforcers you have chosen. You like praise, I like toys with one dog, and have another dog who is simply so excited to work with me that working is a reinforcer (something many agility dogs get - running the couse as a reinforcer itself). All of these benefit from the scientific research about how to best use our reinforcers to produce strong behaviors. And yes, the fact is reinforcers have different value...for many dogs, praise is inadequate. That is okay. As a dog trainer, I find it absolutely essential to treat every dog and owner as an individual case. My training methods and behavior plans reflect that. There is no one size fits all in dog training.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I know I already posted my thoughts here, but I feel I have to add a little more.

There are other places to train a dog in addition to Petsmart. I highly encourage all new dog owners, whether the dog is a puppy or an adult, to find a good positive/reward-based training class. The training is for both you and the dog, it is a great bonding experience, and it is like taking out insurance against future issues. If you are not sure whether the trainer is a good one, then ask around and also ask to sit in on a class before you sign up. (Without your dog) It is well-worth the money. Reward-based training is the one that lasts and cements a bond between you and your dog. Other types of training may work in the short term, but the end doesn't justify the means. The experts agree, across the board, that positive/reward training works and sticks. If a person trains a dog by using pain, the dog isn't trained and bonded to the person, he is just terrified and avoiding pain. IMO, that is a horrible thing to do to a dog, and people who do that shouldn't be allowed to have dogs. 

Nikki and I still practice all of the things we learned in obedience class about 3-4X a week, (She attended school at 9 months) and she loves her "practice time." I love it too, because she is a very happy and obedient dog.

I agree with everything that JMM and MandyMc65 have stated here. They are both experienced trainers and they know what they are talking about. 

Read Culture Clash and The Other End of The Leash. Those books will reinforce everything JMM and MandyMc65 have said, and also demonstrate how vital obedience training is.


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## almitra (Apr 24, 2009)

QUOTE (setell @ Dec 29 2009, 02:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=867914


> I don’t want Charlie to be a rude dog when he meet other dogs but during our walks the bigger dogs ignore him. Do you guys have this problem too? Bigger dogs ignoring our little guys?[/B]


I guess I notice that it seems to be about 50/50----a dog (no _matter_ the size) ignoring Pepper on walks. Truthfully, I'd probably rather a large dog ignore my 4 pound fluff than take an avid interest. She refuses to ignore them, however...LOL!!! My aim is to help her keep her reactions in check...and not just with other dogs, but with other people. That's what I like about group classes as opposed to private lessons, though both clearly have their distinct advantages. I have seen some really sub-par trainers for these classes, but I've also found some fabulous ones. If you have a specific idea about how you visualize training your pup, then find a trainer who utilizes it. I think PetSmart has a click-a-trick class...at least ours does here in East Texas. Would that be kind of what you're looking for, or at least close to it? I am not advocating a specific organization or company, just that I have seen them advertise this class on their website. But then again, I also see several other organizations online that have local chapters of dog obedience training available all over the country, even in less populated areas.
Personally, I do like to use treats in the training process, though I dispense with them after the trick or behavior is set. Sporadically thereafter, I give a treat as a reinforcer (an added "bonus") for a job well done. That way my dog always wonders if this time will be the time she gets the treat, so she always immediately performs the action cued. Food is quite a motivator for most dogs (Pepper included), but there are those who are not interested in treats at all (there was one like that in my last class). Then you have to find out what that animal's currency is and utilize _that_, whether it be praise, a special toy that ONLY comes out during training time, etc, etc. 
And then sometimes the performance itself is the catalyst for success. Pepper is usually so excited to perform her trick that the laughter and glee expressed by her audience is often all the reinforcement this little _ham_ needs.  She sails thru hoops, crawls across the ground, vertically jumps, shimmies thru tunnels, you name it. She doesn't get a thing for it but adulation...and apparently it's enough. So maybe your little guy gets the same charge out of his obedience training as Pepper does out of rally and agility, the thrill. 
By all means seek out a puppy obedience class for the two of you to bond over---it IS money well spent and time well invested.


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