# Liver Shunt - Should parents be spay & neutered



## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I am just curious as my understanding is that if a puppy has liver shunt the parents should be spay and neutered and not bred again as it is a genetic defect in that line but we are having this discussion on another group where this person is saying that is not necessarily the case so I wanted to get some feedback on here - it is on a yorkie group and they are 38% more likely to throw shunts in that breed so i know it does not run as high in this breed but curious on thoughts here


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Current research leads us to believe that liver shunt is a dominant trait with incomplete penetrance and no genetic marker yet. To further complicate things, I'm not sure that any conclusion has been reached yet as to whether or not it is a single-gene or polygenic trait. Because it's a dominant trait only one parent needs to be a carrier in order to produce liver shunt. But because there is no genetic marker we have no idea who the carrier is. NOBODY wants to produce liver shunt, but to spay/neuter both the sire and dam without knowing where the fault lies means we automatically are reducing the gene pool and potentially removing a normal healthy non-carrier dog or bitch from a breeding program. If we were to spay/neuter everything that has produced liver shunt or MVD we would so drastically reduce the gene pool that we'd be inviting all kinds of other problems. That being said, from a personal standpoint, if I bred my sire bred to two different dams and produced liver shunt in both litters then I personally would neuter my sire. Same would apply if my dam bred to two different sires produced liver shunt then I personally would spay my dam. I don't think there is a perfect across the board answer that everyone should live by. One needs to know well their own breeding stock, what it has produced in the past, and also know well what they are outcross breeding to and what it has produced in the past.

MaryH


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

ok thanks that makes perfect sense. So do you recommend the parents being bile acid tested prior to breeding would that help in determining the trait or is there still a chance they can throw the shunt even with having normal bile acids ?

QUOTE (MaryH @ Oct 1 2009, 10:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835749


> Current research leads us to believe that liver shunt is a dominant trait with incomplete penetrance and no genetic marker yet. To further complicate things, I'm not sure that any conclusion has been reached yet as to whether or not it is a single-gene or polygenic trait. Because it's a dominant trait only one parent needs to be a carrier in order to produce liver shunt. But because there is no genetic marker we have no idea who the carrier is. NOBODY wants to produce liver shunt, but to spay/neuter both the sire and dam without knowing where the fault lies means we automatically are reducing the gene pool and potentially removing a normal healthy non-carrier dog or bitch from a breeding program. If we were to spay/neuter everything that has produced liver shunt or MVD we would so drastically reduce the gene pool that we'd be inviting all kinds of other problems. That being said, from a personal standpoint, if I bred my sire bred to two different dams and produced liver shunt in both litters then I personally would neuter my sire. Same would apply if my dam bred to two different sires produced liver shunt then I personally would spay my dam. I don't think there is a perfect across the board answer that everyone should live by. One needs to know well their own breeding stock, what it has produced in the past, and also know well what they are outcross breeding to and what it has produced in the past.
> 
> MaryH[/B]


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

my gift exchange buddy on yt i felt so bad for her as she bred her two yorkies and she threw a shunt pup and she sold it to an owner and the dog spiraled down and was on deaths door so the owner luckily called her and her and her hubby drove 8 hrs to get Ginger and brought her immediately to university of tennessee to tobias for all the testing as the bile acids were high at previous vet - she video taped the whole experience and wow this pup is doing so great now and is in prep for surgery with tobias for the shunt next month as they wanted her to have her boosters and get more weight on her before surgery. I was very impressed with how she handled it as the new owner was going to put her down but she was not going to let that happen and went immediately to get her dog and is going to keep her now. She said both her male and female were bile acid tested and were normal so she was shocked. She said tobias is doing an extensive study on this as i am aware that centers is as well -- it is all so interesting to me especially since my dd has mvd with no symptoms though thank goodness


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (dwerten @ Oct 1 2009, 11:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835751


> ok thanks that makes perfect sense. So do you recommend the parents being bile acid tested prior to breeding would that help in determining the trait or is there still a chance they can throw the shunt even with having normal bile acids ?[/B]


It's really not my place to recommend anything to anyone. There is so much good information available so that breeders can make informed decisions based on their own lines. All of mine have had bile acid tests. All puppies born here get bile acid tested, too.

Bile acid testing will not tell you whether a shunt will be produced. Only a genetic marker or linkage test will get us there. But a bile acid test will tell you about your dog's liver before you decide to breed. And bile acid testing puppies before they leave (even if it's at 12 wks. old) will give you a good idea as to whether any of them have a shunt.

MaryH


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## myfairlacy (Dec 28, 2007)

Yes parents should be spayed/neutered if they produce a liver shunt puppy. Because we don't have the genetic marker yet, the best we can currently do is bile acid test parents before breeding and spay/neuter parents and offspring if a liver shunt puppy is born.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Oct 1 2009, 03:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835825


> Yes parents should be spayed/neutered if they produce a liver shunt puppy. Because we don't have the genetic marker yet, the best we can currently do is bile acid test parents before breeding and spay/neuter parents and offspring if a liver shunt puppy is born.[/B]



If a sire has been bred to 15 bitches and never produced a liver shunt, then bred to a bitch that did produce liver shunt, just curious why you state that both sire and dam should be spayed/neutered, especially since we are being told that liver shunt is a dominant trait, meaning it only takes one parent to produce the trait in the offspring?

MaryH


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

QUOTE (MaryH @ Oct 1 2009, 02:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835851


> QUOTE (MyFairLacy @ Oct 1 2009, 03:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835825





> Yes parents should be spayed/neutered if they produce a liver shunt puppy. Because we don't have the genetic marker yet, the best we can currently do is bile acid test parents before breeding and spay/neuter parents and offspring if a liver shunt puppy is born.[/B]



If a sire has been bred to 15 bitches and never produced a liver shunt, then bred to a bitch that did produce liver shunt, just curious why you state that both sire and dam should be spayed/neutered, especially since we are being told that liver shunt is a dominant trait, meaning it only takes one parent to produce the trait in the offspring?

MaryH
[/B][/QUOTE]

Often times, the sire owner is not owned by the same person who has the dam, making things even more 'difficult.' I am not sure if I, personally, would breed the bitch again if she produced a shunt, but if the sire has produced many healthy litters, I don't see why they should both be sterilized. I think Mary's concern of further shrinking the gene pool is a very valid one and definitely something to think about.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

Stacy and Mary,

I agree with both of you. I would try to determine which of the 2 parents is the carrier (by prior breedings) and then spay or neuter the appropriate one. However, if the parents are very closely line-bred, then I would go ahead and sterilize both.

And, Stacy, you are so right on the money about the sire being owned by someone else. The owner of the dam, who is the actual breeder of the litter, is the one that the owner will call. Many owners of sires will never be notified or will not agreed that their dog is the carrier.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

QUOTE (Lacie's Mom @ Oct 1 2009, 07:02 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=835866


> Stacy and Mary,
> 
> I agree with both of you. I would try to determine which of the 2 parents is the carrier (by prior breedings) and then spay or neuter the appropriate one. However, if the parents are very closely line-bred, then I would go ahead and sterilize both.
> 
> And, Stacy, you are so right on the money about the sire being owned by someone else. The owner of the dam, who is the actual breeder of the litter, is the one that the owner will call. Many owners of sires will never be notified or will not agreed that their dog is the carrier.[/B]


Thanks, Lynn. I totally agree that a line-breeding situation adds another element for serious consideration. What concerns me is that "broad blanket" statements have a way of becoming fact without the benefit of scientific data to support the statements. Whether an outcross, line or inbreeding, I personally would spay/neuter all the puppies.

MaryH


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

This is a good example of a very informative conversation that did what it should and didn't get crazy. Thanks to all of you.


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