# Why do trainers keep wanting me to use a collar on Cici??



## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

I don't know whether to be annoyed or confused, I feel both! I have NEVER used a leash and collar on Cici, only harness since she was a younger, because of the fear of collapsed trachea. 

The first time a trainer told me otherwise was at her puppy class, the trainer told everyone to bring collar and leash, not a harness. I used harness on her anyways, the trainer never pointed it out though, but out of 20 puppies, Cici was the only one with harness, I felt bad for the other small breed puppies that sometimes looked like they were being choked when they tried to pull away. 

The second time was at Petsmart training. She didn't tell me to use a collar, she just made a comment "oh she has a harness this is going to be more difficult", kind of talking to herself. 

The third time was with the in-home training where I hired a behavior consultant, and she demanded I put a collar on Cici before we began the training. I told her I couldn't put the leash on a collar anyways because the one I use doesn't have a hook, it's kind of a loop and it was already looped in her harness so it would just take longer to get it all set up like that.. She said training should be done on a collar. 

Well today was the fourth time. She wasn't a trainer, just a lady I met that has a service dog, and she offered to have Cici meet her Maltese and her to help her get socialized, since I don't have new nice people to introduce her to and show her she can trust other people, and she also offered to show Cici a few things her dog knows. Well she also mentioned the collar thing, saying a harness isn't going to work. And she just put a collar on Cici herself without thinking twice. I told her that I don't use collars because of the collapsed trachea thing, and she said that that's false, that is only happens with pinch collars not regular collars.. I tried explaining that if she pulls the collar could choke her the same.. And she insisted otherwise. I just let her do it her way, it was only for a couple of minutes. After the first time Cici tried to go ahead of us a little and felt the pressure (she didn't pull fast luckily), backed up and walked nicely by our side the whole time. 

So I'm annoyed at the comment about how only pinch collars cause collapsed trachea, because I know if a dog pulls hard enough on a regular collar it can cause that. And also I'm wondering if people actually use collars just for training? Like would it be ok to do so as long as the dog does not lunge and then get chicken back by the collar? I was so worried the whole time making sure if she went ahead that I would give her some more leash and just slowly redirect her so I don't just pull straight back at the leash. We only did it for about 15 mins and then I took it off and gave it back to the lady. 

I would still be worried about the dog seeing something and trying to go after it and get choked . I don't even want to imagine that happening.. 

Comments on that? Does anyone use collars for training?
I can't see myself getting one for Cici.. The only collar she has is just for her tag and doesn't have a loop for the leash. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

That's weird. We've been to many classes when I was selecting one, and most of them said no choke/prong collars and retractable leashes, but recommended flat collars or easy walk harness. What does a collar have to do with anything!


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## juzelzei (Oct 4, 2012)

what is the behavior of your baby? because my dog is overprotected and have leash aggression. I talked to the trainer and a dog store owner and he owns 8 westie dog they said to use a non chocking collar or use a flat collar and always walk first before the dog and always remind the dog who is the boss. But i did not listen to the dog store owner and now i'm having a very hard time with my dog. he barks a lot when he sees other dog going next to me or when he sees other dog on a leash but right now i'm doing a self training but still not using any collar still using a harness cause maltese is too small for a collar and i dont want my baby get choke.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## maggieh (Dec 16, 2007)

My girls only used harnesses for training, and Tessa completed her CGC. I'd say the trainers you've talked are not familiar with toy breeds and collapsing tracheas and rely way too much on the collars for control and correction instead of positive reinforcement. 

There are very effective trainers who will support and encourage the use of a harness - I'd suggest you keep looking until you find one.


----------



## luvsmalts (Oct 21, 2008)

We were advised to use easy walk harness in both classes we took.


----------



## maltese manica (Nov 6, 2012)

I have and will only use a harness for my babies.................... I do my training on my own. I use my facial expressions with them and get on my knees if they start to act up. I find that this works well. I do not use a flexi leash, I only use a lead leash as this is the best to train and walk with............. but that is my own personal opinion.........


----------



## Grace'sMom (Feb 22, 2012)

Nora,

The collar thing is because it is easier to control a dog. With a collar, the dog has very little control because you are guiding their head, basically. It's like with a horse.

But your worries are valid and I really would stay away from collars. Please do not let strangers coax you into them, even for a few minutes.

Have you tried a front clip harness?

Walking harnesses are good too... but not all are created equal.

I have something that will help you.... My sister's dog is a terror - pulls on the leash (until she's walking on her back legs only), growls and barks at anyone passing, really bad with other dogs.

I got a SENSE-ation no pull harness *just* for her. You have to order it online....and if you have questions about sizing - email them, they are good about helping.

I've tried the other no pull harnesses, most she managed to escape from... so honestly didn't put a lot of hope on the SENSE-ation either. It didn't look like much and I thought for sure she'd be out of it in 5 minutes, just thought it would be like the others.

But - when it's worn properly - they give good instructions - has to be tight enough for the ring to be in a certain place..... It works wonderfully.

Whenever her dog is over here and my mom or I take her on a walk, she wears this harness and is a whole other dog!

So easy to control her.... She tried pulling once but stopped on her own, we just had to guide her back into a place next to us... Every time (since she isn't with us regularly) she pulls at least once but stops. She tried going nuts after another dog... We gently corrected by pulling a little on the leash (she's a small dog so we don't pull hard at all!), and she went from an 8 to a 3. 

Seriously... was a different dog.

I recommended this harness to my cousin who has a Dobi.... she was given a pinch collar by a friend and just couldn't use it. Her Dobi (who is about 1 year now - so still puppy) walks great with it.


Have you been able to socialize her with any other dogs?

I'm glad you are still trying and not giving up on Cici.... I know it gets frustrating. Please know that there is no quick fix to this. Even the SENSE-ation harness - it won't be a quick fix. Just like a collar is not a magic wand that will make Cici's problems go away.

It takes what you are doing: Patience and practice and more patience.....


----------



## StevieB (Feb 2, 2012)

Nora, when we did our basic obedience class the trainer had me use a harness just like the one Tori recommended. She said the front clipping harness offers more control than the harnesses that have the ring on their back, because with those they can just pull to their little hearts content. She had me clip the front harness ring to his collar ring with the leash and that worked really well. Steve is about 12lbs though, so I don't worry as much about a collapsed trachea. So I second Tori's recommendation.


----------



## mostlytina (Jan 3, 2009)

Hi, Nora,

Both of my girls wear collars in obedience training. You *can* use collars without harsh correction. I think it depends on your dog's nature (if they like to pull or not) and what type of training you are trying to do. In obedience, all corrections are supposed to be quick and never a long pull. As many stated earlier, a back clip harness are good for walks because it tends to encourage pulling when dogs feel pressure on their chest. 
If you feel so uncomfortable training with collars, Cici will be able to feel your fear through your body language and the leash. That will not help the training situation, either. Do what's best for your baby. If she has sensitive trachea to begin with, I'll go easy on her. It might take longer to reach your goal, but we are not really racing to the finish line, aren't we?  
Happy training~~~


----------



## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

juzelzei said:


> what is the behavior of your baby? because my dog is overprotected and have leash aggression. I talked to the trainer and a dog store owner and he owns 8 westie dog they said to use a non chocking collar or use a flat collar and always walk first before the dog and always remind the dog who is the boss. But i did not listen to the dog store owner and now i'm having a very hard time with my dog. he barks a lot when he sees other dog going next to me or when he sees other dog on a leash but right now i'm doing a self training but still not using any collar still using a harness cause maltese is too small for a collar and i dont want my baby get choke.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


She is reactive when she sees people and dogs, also when she's on leash not when she's loose like at an off-leash dog park. All these trainers said that it was easier to control the dog with a leash, and I'm thinking that's just trying to do it the easy way without thinking about the issues it could cause, so I'll be sticking to just harnesses, even if it makes training take more effort because I don't simply tug on her collar to distract like i've seen some people do , I have to re-direct her with my happy voice and walk the other way, get her mind off it.


----------



## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

maggieh said:


> My girls only used harnesses for training, and Tessa completed her CGC. I'd say the trainers you've talked are not familiar with toy breeds and collapsing tracheas and rely way too much on the collars for control and correction instead of positive reinforcement.
> 
> There are very effective trainers who will support and encourage the use of a harness - I'd suggest you keep looking until you find one.


That's what irritates me, that these trainers should be professionals and be aware of those problems, people are paying them money for their information and guidance, it should be correct instead of confusing people . I gave up on trainers completely now, those ARE the best known in this area, so I don't know where I can go from here... Her puppy school trainer is what everyone in this area thinks is "the" best, and even other trainers recommend her, and this private behaviorist I hired is also known as "the best" in this area, with 11 years experience specifically with small breeds (she says). When she told me she specializes in small breeds, I was really happy. An she IS a good trainer, but the only thing that put me off was demanding I use a collar on her. It should be optional and she should be able to provide the same results either way, in my opinion.. But I'm not very experienced with this, so I may be missing something.


----------



## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

luvsmalts said:


> We were advised to use easy walk harness in both classes we took.


I was so close to getting one of those after doing my own research, but I went ahead and purchase the head halter easy walk one because I was encouraged to use that one instead, and it didn't work out well. Besides being terrified of making a mistake and hurting her neck (even though I read the manual and watched youtube videos, it's still scary thinking about what could happen), I couldn't get her to walk with it, she would just hang her head even though i slowly introduced it to her and gave her treats, she would just stay there like "oh no mommy, I'm not going out like this!". I've been spending so much in training and "equipment" that I haven't even been using because it hasn't worked out for us, that I'm just taking a break from using trainers in my area and just going to use what I learned to do her training myself with her in her harness and using treats & lots of praise.


----------



## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

maltese manica said:


> I have and will only use a harness for my babies.................... I do my training on my own. I use my facial expressions with them and get on my knees if they start to act up. I find that this works well. I do not use a flexi leash, I only use a lead leash as this is the best to train and walk with............. but that is my own personal opinion.........


How do you distract them when they "start to act up"? Is it just getting down on your knees that gets their attention? I've tried so many things with Cici and so far the only thing that works with her is when I take a very deep break (to calm myself down & get into character!) & do a very very excited and very loud voice saying "OMG look at this!!" and I start running the opposite direction. I'm not a very loud person, I have a very quiet voice, so this is actually sometimes difficult for me to do right lol. If it's not enough volume or enough high pitched, she'll just ignore me and continue barking. If I try to turn the other way just by walking her the other way, she has her body turned back and barking like crazy, so I'm practically dragging her.


----------



## .13124 (Jun 1, 2012)

Grace'sMom said:


> Nora,
> 
> The collar thing is because it is easier to control a dog. With a collar, the dog has very little control because you are guiding their head, basically. It's like with a horse.
> 
> ...



Is it different than the easy walk no pull harness? It sound like it might be worth a try if we don't make more progress with her regular walking harness. At home, outside in the front yard and around my street she walks well next to me, no pulling, unless she spots someone and lunges their way, but out in other places like the park or somewhere else, she totally forgets how to walk next to me so she's just dragging me along, she's very strong for her size!


----------



## eiksaa (Jun 8, 2012)

Can you make it positive by reserving treats for this very special occasion? Gustave's special treat is boiled chicken. He ONLY gets it if he walks nicely on leash, that's our number one problem. 

You could get her attention before she starts barking and keep giving her chicken, slowly increasing how long she has to be quiet for. Food always works for us as distraction because Gustave loves food. It might work for Cici if she is food motivated too. 

Also, I was pretty surprised to find how sparse dog stuff and services are in smaller cities (than LA). Only 2 grooming places in Ojai, similar number in SLO, not even a lot in Santa Barbara. I'm not surprised you don't have a lot of trainers to choose from. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I have taken training classes for years in many places and frankly if you want to advance in obedience you do need to use a collar to compete in some venues. So I do use collars on mine, but I do not use them as a training device the way so many do. 

Most positive trainers (such as those on the APDT list) will allow or even encourage you to work with a harness. 

I would be most wary of a trainer that asks for any kind of pop on the collar. It is not true that pinch collars are the only ones that are problematic for the trachea. Actually, I have heard many argue that the worse collar for the trachea is the flat buckle, but it has a lot to do with how it is used. 

I think it would bother me if a trainer was not open to working with a dog in a harness. It would tell me that they lack the creativity and the understanding that there are different approaches.


----------

