# Vaccinations



## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Much of what we learn from human health and genetics can and has been applied to dogs and much of what we learn from canine health and genetics can and has been applied to humans. Vaccinations and their effects, both human and canine, are continually evolving and changing with new theories, studies and conclusions being proffered all the time. One vaccination of great interest to me is the polio vaccination. I'm old enough to have relatives, friends and classmates who contracted polio and old enough to remember being vaccinated against Polio. While the vaccine virtually eradicated Polio in industrialized nations, Polio is seemingly on the uprise in many developing nations -- India and some of the African countries come to mind. What fascinates me is what we are still learning about the Polio vaccines and their effects more than a half century after thier approval and use. And while there are many proven scientific studies on adverse effects from the different Polio vaccines, there are also many proven scientific studies on their positive effects. I believe there are the same scientifically-proven negative and positive effect studies on some of the canine vaccinations. All of which leads me to question which came first, the chicken or the egg? Are some of these vaccines causing us and our dogs to have compromised immune systems or is there some other evolutionary process going on causing immune system issues that then cause negative side effects to certain vaccines? Or could much of the negatives be caused, at least in our dogs, by overvaccination or by poor quality vaccines, in part due to lack of research and trial studies? Just some thoughts I often ponder. Would love to hear others thoughts on the subject.


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## Maltbabe (Oct 10, 2010)

*Mary....*

I found your post very interesting but the thread was not continued. PM me as I have a suggestion.

I really, really like you and I do not want to see you get into trouble here.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Very sensible questions Mary. I want to utilize any new research and weigh it against everything I learned previous for pros and cons. I'm happy to see an open mind on both sides of the question.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I want to add that my DH had polio in 1947-48. It is not something you want to have.


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## bellaratamaltese (May 24, 2006)

Maltbabe said:


> I found your post very interesting but the thread was not continued. PM me as I have a suggestion.
> 
> I really, really like you and I do not want to see you get into trouble here.


Why would she get into trouble for this thread? Can we not discuss vaccination protocols and the results of over-vaccination?


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## silverhaven (Sep 6, 2009)

I wish we all knew Mary. There are definite signs of many more immune system problems than we have ever had, both dogs and humans. Lots of things seem to be cited with causing them, from food preservatives, vaccine, etc. etc. etc. we are bombarded with so many weird chemicals. But then lifespans have also lengthened, so I guess we are doing some things right and some wrong. Not easy to find out at all. I personally am doing my best to feed as naturally as possible and avoid chemicals whenever I can. Not sure what else I can do. Lola had titers done for her first year due vaccinations and came back to be still immune so I don't have to redo them  She does have some problems in that way. She still has a bump under her chin from a bite she got months ago that flares up now and again and gets itchy. Vet isn't keen on her having any more vaccinations at all at this point.


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## allheart (Oct 3, 2008)

Mary, such a very interesting topic. I do beleive care of humans and canines somehow do overlap. Not only vaccinations, but medicines percribed. I can speak from the human side somewhat, and some of the meds perscribed, let's say for the elderly, do more harm than good, at times. I would think that would cross over to the canine world as well. I am sooooooooooo very interested in vaccinations for my babies, even though, as I've said before, I do trust my vet, she does specialize in small breeds, but I still want to be informed.

On the human side, sadly I have seen meds being percribed and the poor elderly patient, can't figure out why now all of a sudden he is having so much trouble with one of his legs.

Cholesterol meds for humans is one that comes to mind for me, not saying it is not needed, but the side effects, of which no one tells you, unless you read up on it, can really cause the patient great pain.

So yes, Mary, I defintely ponder this myself alot and wonder.....

Once again, great informative thought provocing post.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I am a believer in doing research, asking questions and considering options when it comes to the health of my pets. 

My beloved Cloud had some issues in the later years in his life that may have been a product of over-vaccination. He became very very sick after his last rabies vaccine and one of the ER vets told me she thought it may have been a direct result of his vaccination, especially on his "elderly" immune compromised system. Of course, this has made me rethink when and how I do vaccinations. 

However, I am very troubled by the reports I hear from folks in the veterinary community about increasing refusals on the part of pet owners to do vaccinations for diseases like Parvo. Like Polio, we know how to prevent Parvo. The vaccine certainly saves lives and not just the lives of those who have been vaccinated, but those of pets who have not been exposed because the majority of the population is vaccinated. When people refuse to vaccinate they are not only putting their own dogs at risk, they are also making the greater canine population more vulnerable. 

I guess my feeling is that I wish people would not "throw the baby out with the bathwater." We live in a world of extremes sometimes. You can take a pill for everything. Or you can refuse medical intervention. But the reality is that the best solution is somewhere in between. I believe this is true about vaccinations, too. In the past, we have unjustifiably over-vaccinated our dogs. We have given vaccines for diseases they are not exposed to. We have given annual vaccines when evidence does not support the need for them. But, the best response to this is not to go back and get rid of vaccinations altogether, but rather to consider how to best "moderate" our use of this incredible science.


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## pammy4501 (Aug 8, 2007)

I really think that the vet community is taking a long look at vaccine protocols. I personally do not believe in foregoing all vaccines. Things like Parvo are way to frightning and kill so fast. As for Mary's question about the chicken or the egg, it's hard to say. I have had many long talks about this with Lola's neurologist. As you know, she has immune mediated GME. It is an auto immune disease. Dr. Sullivan believes that the vaccines don't cause this per sey, but rather, some dogs (especially little white ones) have a "touchy" immune system. For this subset of animals, perhaps vaccines trigger the immune system to go into over drive and attack the dogs systems. We do see quite a bit of immune mediated illnesses in our dogs. So, I have come to believe that for maltese dogs (at least) single vaccines are best, and titre testing to avoid over stimulating immune systems. And I just learned that my insurance company (ACK Pet) is now covering titre testing. So, this is becoming a more accepted thing.

People here ask me all the time if I do anything to boost Lola's immune system. And I say NO! I keep her immune supressed with meds so that her encephalitis will be kept in check. The immune system is a complex thing. Lola will never recieve another vaccine per Dr. Sullivan. I am very careful with Lola due to her supressed state. I don't really take her out often, as I am afraid of her coming in contact with sick dogs etc. So, she is my homegirl now. LOL.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

bellaratamaltese said:


> Why would she get into trouble for this thread? Can we not discuss vaccination protocols and the results of over-vaccination?


I started a thread late last night entitled "Vaccinations and General Health Concerns" expressing my thanks to all who share their opinions because whether I agree or not the opinions expressed encourage me to keep researching and learning. That thread was removed this morning.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> I am a believer in doing research, asking questions and considering options when it comes to the health of my pets.
> 
> My beloved Cloud had some issues in the later years in his life that may have been a product of over-vaccination. He became very very sick after his last rabies vaccine and one of the ER vets told me she thought it may have been a direct result of his vaccination, especially on his "elderly" immune compromised system. Of course, this has made me rethink when and how I do vaccinations.
> 
> ...


The tech that comes to my house daily has told me they see about one parvo case a month and usually it is in puppies from 12-16 weeks because owners take them out before full immunity. She said parvo usually affects the very young or the very old or those with compromised immune systems. Now giving a compromised immune system a vaccination is risky in itself as is giving an elderly dog a vaccination. I had a parvo scare as I have stated on prior threads where a plumber came in my home two times the week his puppy was in the hospital with parvo and I have dd who is immune compromised and has not had a parvo vaccine since her puppy vaccines and has been titered for years. I called the specialists and several vets and all said do not worry as they all got their puppy shots they will be fine and they were. 

I have just learned alot about lepto with this kidney issue with dexter as that is one disease that can cause kidney issues along with tick borne disease. I have never given lepto to my 4 dogs. It was not lepto and I still would not give lepto vaccine after this scare as it can be treated with antibiotics and kidney dialysis if bad enough so it is treatable. There are different strains of lepto too so the vaccine does not cover all strains. This vaccine has the highest reaction in dogs but if you are in an area where your dog is drinking from puddles that can be contaminated by wild life then it is something to think about but it is not of concern where I live and our lifestyle. Lepto can be transmitted to humans and is contagious to other dogs as well. 

I think each person needs to evaluate the health of the pet and the lifestyle and area they live in and determine along with their vet what is appropriate and what they are comfortable with for their pet. I think they need to also educate themselves as well and ask questions of the vets like how many cases do you see a year of lepto or parvo, etc. 

I personally feel puppy shots plus one year booster then titering for mine is what I am comfortable with but each person has to come to that conclusion for themselves. 

Also splitting parvo and distemper is an option BUT many vets do not have these in stock and something to consider in doing that is most reactions are from the adjuvant that is added in the vaccine so by splitting it sometimes the dog is getting more of that from each vaccine. I know some believe for a smaller dog not giving full dose is better than splitting it but again discuss this with vet and get their take on it.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Interesting thread, Mary. Thank you for starting it.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

pammy4501 said:


> I really think that the vet community is taking a long look at vaccine protocols. I personally do not believe in foregoing all vaccines. Things like Parvo are way to frightning and kill so fast. As for Mary's question about the chicken or the egg, it's hard to say. I have had many long talks about this with Lola's neurologist. As you know, she has immune mediated GME. It is an auto immune disease. Dr. Sullivan believes that the vaccines don't cause this per sey, but rather, some dogs (especially little white ones) have a "touchy" immune system. For this subset of animals, perhaps vaccines trigger the immune system to go into over drive and attack the dogs systems. We do see quite a bit of immune mediated illnesses in our dogs. So, I have come to believe that for maltese dogs (at least) single vaccines are best, and titre testing to avoid over stimulating immune systems. And I just learned that my insurance company (ACK Pet) is now covering titre testing. So, this is becoming a more accepted thing.
> 
> I will add that within one month of dd puppy shots at 6 mos she was a total nightmare itching like crazy and she is hypothyroid and atopic dermatitis and she was perfect before the last shots  I personally feel the vaccines do affect the immune system and can set some dogs off but you do have to protect from disease so it is a very fine line.
> 
> People here ask me all the time if I do anything to boost Lola's immune system. And I say NO! I keep her immune supressed with meds so that her encephalitis will be kept in check. The immune system is a complex thing. Lola will never recieve another vaccine per Dr. Sullivan. I am very careful with Lola due to her supressed state. I don't really take her out often, as I am afraid of her coming in contact with sick dogs etc. So, she is my homegirl now. LOL.


this is how I am with Dee Dee as she did not get one year booster so she stays home and she is on steroids every other day for allergies thus suppressing immune system further so when this plumber came in my home I FREAKED OUT. I thought great I try to protect her in the home and some guy comes in my home with a dog that has parvo JUST GREAT. All the vet professionals I trust said they will be fine and they were so it made me think hmmmmmm If they know this then why do some vaccinate every 3 years for this and some yearly? Something to think about and what they did tell me is Parvo is everywhere so you can bring it home on your shoes, etc.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

I do have to add that my dee dee was perfectly normal before her last puppy shots and within one month of them she was a total mess. She itched like crazy and has been a mess ever since. She is hypothyroid and atopic dermatitis and my gut is the vaccines affected her immune system as both are auto immune diseases. Now do I regret vaccinating her for her puppy shots - NO as you have to protect them against diseases and it is a risk you take to protect them but her immune system was affected and has been a struggle to care for her for almost 7 years now. I did not know this stuff back then so i just trusted what they were doing was ok so I may have done it differently as i think they loaded her up with rabies and other vaccinations on same day which may have been just too much for her little system. I really need to go back and look it all over. 

Lucy has been way over vaccinated when I got her records and she does not have the immune problems dee dee does and she is only 4.5lbs so you just never know. 

I think breeding has alot to do with it too and dee dee akc papers show she was inbred so she probably had a very delicate immune system to begin with and the last set of shots may have just pushed her over the edge.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

dwerten said:


> The tech that comes to my house daily has told me they see about one parvo case a month and usually it is in puppies from 12-16 weeks because owners take them out before full immunity.


Yet there are studies that support the theory that a puppy nursing from a healthy mother receives its initial immunity from the colostrum in its mother's milk. That colustrum provides immunity for a period of time, different in every dog, but potentially lasting for several weeks depending on the individual immune system. In the past the recommendation was to vaccinate puppies every two weeks starting at 6 weeks old and lasting through at least 4 sets of puppy shots. Current recommendations are to start somewhere from 6-8 weeks of age and repeat every 3-4 weeks with the last shots being given at or after 16 weeks of age. What I've been told is that immunity during the first few months of life has highs and lows and in order to continue to boost immunity we need to vaccinate during the waning period; vaccinating during the peak period does not stimulate an immunity boost and is therefore ineffective. My vet (also a breeder of a toy breed) is a proponent of starting vaccinations at 6 weeks and continuing every 3 weeks until a puppy has reached 16 weeks of age. Another vet friend (and breeder of another breed of toy dogs) recommends 8, 12 and 16 weeks for vaccinations. Both vets adamantly advocate the importance of a 12-month booster after the last of the puppy shots and both vets believe that an otherwise healthy puppy can go out and about before they have completed their series of puppy shots although they do not recommend allowing young puppies to run around on the floors at a dog show or dog park. My current personal choice is to vaccinate at 8, 12 and 16 weeks and a 12-month booster, and bring my dogs out and about with me after receiving their first puppy shot. I do not bring them to dog parks or let them walk around at dog shows but I do allow them to run and play in my yard and have brought them to dog shows where they stay in a pen or I carry them around. My vet friend and I both agree that exposing an otherwise healthy dog to natural air which will always be naturally full of germs is yet another way to boost the immune system. I've never had children and do not know what the vaccination protocol is for children but I've certainly seen infants (well under 3 months of age) out in public breathing germy air. Just some more food for thought.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

I am very concerned about total toxic load. 

I don't think that we often think about how many total toxins we are exposing ourselves to each today, in the air that we breathe, our food, our cleaning products, our beauty products, our scented products, our air fresheners/perfumes, etc. Many scented products might be harmful to some people's lungs. 

We are stuck inside our homes or offices during the day, often breathing recycled air. We spend less time out in the sun, and/or we apply a lot of sunscreen, both of which reduces the amount of Vitamin D our bodies absorb, thus compromising the immune system. And that goes for our dogs, too. 

Then on top of it, many people/dogs have to take synthetic meds, or unknowingly take poor-quality supplements, which adds to that total toxic load. Everyone has a unique immune system, and some can handle things better than others. Our pets, are so much smaller, and since they live with us, they are exposed to much of those same things we are. So in my own life, I really try to lighten that load, and remove as many toxins as I can. I am really trying this year to get out in the fresh air and sun more, now that I've increased my Vitamin D level. (A good Vitamin D level helps prevent sunburn)

Regarding pet vaccinations: After the series of puppy shots, I think that in _some_ dogs (and people too,) the boosters every year or every three years may compromise the immune system. I only do what is necessary to be in compliance with state law. I'd rather take the risk of not vaccinating, then take the risk of over vaccinating, and compromising the immune system. That is my personal choice, and I am fully aware of my responsibility in this matter. I am not telling anyone else what to do. If you want to know more, you can always pm me. 

It is my wish that folks would really take the time to consider the big picture when it comes to total toxic load, and realize just how many things in our environment can contribute to immune compromise, and take a few steps to reduce that load.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

MaryH said:


> Yet there are studies that support the theory that a puppy nursing from a healthy mother receives its initial immunity from the colostrum in its mother's milk. That colustrum provides immunity for a period of time, different in every dog, but potentially lasting for several weeks depending on the individual immune system. In the past the recommendation was to vaccinate puppies every two weeks starting at 6 weeks old and lasting through at least 4 sets of puppy shots. Current recommendations are to start somewhere from 6-8 weeks of age and repeat every 3-4 weeks with the last shots being given at or after 16 weeks of age. What I've been told is that immunity during the first few months of life has highs and lows and in order to continue to boost immunity we need to vaccinate during the waning period; vaccinating during the peak period does not stimulate an immunity boost and is therefore ineffective. My vet (also a breeder of a toy breed) is a proponent of starting vaccinations at 6 weeks and continuing every 3 weeks until a puppy has reached 16 weeks of age. Another vet friend (and breeder of another breed of toy dogs) recommends 8, 12 and 16 weeks for vaccinations. Both vets adamantly advocate the importance of a 12-month booster after the last of the puppy shots and both vets believe that an otherwise healthy puppy can go out and about before they have completed their series of puppy shots although they do not recommend allowing young puppies to run around on the floors at a dog show or dog park. My current personal choice is to vaccinate at 8, 12 and 16 weeks and a 12-month booster, and bring my dogs out and about with me after receiving their first puppy shot. I do not bring them to dog parks or let them walk around at dog shows but I do allow them to run and play in my yard and have brought them to dog shows where they stay in a pen or I carry them around. My vet friend and I both agree that exposing an otherwise healthy dog to natural air which will always be naturally full of germs is yet another way to boost the immune system. I've never had children and do not know what the vaccination protocol is for children but I've certainly seen infants (well under 3 months of age) out in public breathing germy air. Just some more food for thought.


great info - no skin kids here either lol so no clue on all that stuff. 

yeah the animal dermatologist told me she believes dogs have immune issues as not exposed to things alot and kept in doors more etc. She said like in children now they see more with allergies and stuff than before when we were all out playing in the dirt lol and the kids now a days are playing in doors more watching videos and playing video games. I thought that was interesting as well. 

If and that is a a VERY BIG IF I ever get a dog again after all I have been through with mine not sure I will sadly. I would follow dr jean dodds protocol.

I had no clue when I got dex and dee dee as was a new pet owner and really did not get into all this stuff until dex almost died 7/06 of pancreatitis. I started joining groups and learning after that so I could understand animal health to better care for my babies. This has been such a learning experience to say the least and still learning. 

A friend of mine her dog had parvo years ago as she took her dog hiking up in the mountains without all the vaccinations and it was a nightmare and she is religious about this vaccination now. She had the hardest time getting a vet to treat for it back then as they had to quarantine the dog and no vet wanted to take the dog in  Luckily she found one and her dog lived to be 14. Her dog was a mix breed bigger dog.


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## CloudClan (Jan 31, 2007)

I am curious about something. The way vaccinations work is to protect not only your own pet but a a larger community. 

It is true in humans as well. When vaccinations are widely used, they have a much more protective effect for the whole populous. 

I posted a couple of articles yesterday from the New England Journal of Medicine and the Whole Dog Journal. Both of which discussed this point. I am a huge supporter of individual rights to choice; however, when our choices affect others, what are our responsibilities? 

I know for myself, I get upset with people who outright refuse to vaccinate against something so serious as Parvo and therefore put the more vulnerable animals at risk.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

CloudClan said:


> I am curious about something. The way vaccinations work is to protect not only your own pet but a a larger community.
> 
> It is true in humans as well. When vaccinations are widely used, they have a much more protective effect for the whole populous.
> 
> ...


this is a very good point 

I know for me like Pam stated above we keep our vulnerable animals at home and do not expose them to those risks although a risk came in my home sadly . I do not take mine to dog parks, etc as any vet will tell you that you run a bigger risk of them catching things from dog parks.

I personally titer mine with blood work and all still show immunity from one year booster. I know there is controversy over titers but vets get titered for rabies so why do they believe rabies titers work in humans and not in animals? 

Also, all vaccines say to be given to healthy dogs only so giving vaccines to unhealthy dogs is very risky

I think the big risk comes from people never vaccinating their puppies or when breeders do at home and they do not know what they are doing.

I did read the whole dog journal one you posted and appreciate you posting that but did not get to read the other one  so maybe you can repost as would like to read that as well.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I agree, Carina, that we should all make wise, informed choices and we should be held responsible for those choices. I don't think in any of the recent discussions here on SM that anyone is advocating for no vaccinations ever. I think the discussions have been more about how much is enough. I do think that enough studies have been done proving that yearly vaccinations are not always necessary and I do think that titres have proven those theories. As for human vaccinations, my personal choice is to not get a flu vaccination. I'm 55 years young and got the flu for the first time in my life in Feb 2008. I was sick and I stayed home from work because (1) I felt awful; and (2) I did not want to spread germs. I was supposed to go to Westminster that year and opted out of that, too, for the same reasons. I do not regret having passed on a flu vaccination that year or any other year and feel as though I did what I should have done to protect myself and others. I would not want to be told that I must get a flu vaccination and, by the same token, I do not feel that it is my place to tell others not to get a flu vaccination. I feel the same way about my dogs ... I do not believe that my choices intentionally put them at risk or other dogs at risk.


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## Maltbabe (Oct 10, 2010)

*My choice*

All of my fluffs have their vaccines. Parvo included. as for me, what I choose to do or not do is no one's concern but mine. I believe in a strong NATURAL immune system. each time we receive a vaccine we are shooting our bodies with THE VIRUS!!
Hygiene, hydration and nutrition are the key words to ward off viruses in humans. or bodies have enough germs to fight off viral infections.

Since I am a sensible person, I do not share my cold germs I hardly get sick but if and when I do I stay away from others and pratice the above: Hygiene,hydration and nutrition. Other than that, my body fights off the nasty critters :HistericalSmiley::HistericalSmiley:


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

MaryH said:


> Yet there are studies that support the theory that a puppy nursing from a healthy mother receives its initial immunity from the colostrum in its mother's milk. That colustrum provides immunity for a period of time, different in every dog, but potentially lasting for several weeks depending on the individual immune system. In the past the recommendation was to vaccinate puppies every two weeks starting at 6 weeks old and lasting through at least 4 sets of puppy shots. Current recommendations are to start somewhere from 6-8 weeks of age and repeat every 3-4 weeks with the last shots being given at or after 16 weeks of age. What I've been told is that immunity during the first few months of life has highs and lows and in order to continue to boost immunity we need to vaccinate during the waning period; vaccinating during the peak period does not stimulate an immunity boost and is therefore ineffective. My vet (also a breeder of a toy breed) is a proponent of starting vaccinations at 6 weeks and continuing every 3 weeks until a puppy has reached 16 weeks of age. Another vet friend (and breeder of another breed of toy dogs) recommends 8, 12 and 16 weeks for vaccinations. Both vets adamantly advocate the importance of a 12-month booster after the last of the puppy shots and both vets believe that an otherwise healthy puppy can go out and about before they have completed their series of puppy shots although they do not recommend allowing young puppies to run around on the floors at a dog show or dog park. *My current personal choice is to vaccinate at 8, 12 and 16 weeks and a 12-month booster*, and bring my dogs out and about with me after receiving their first puppy shot. I do not bring them to dog parks or let them walk around at dog shows but I do allow them to run and play in my yard and have brought them to dog shows where they stay in a pen or I carry them around. My vet friend and I both agree that exposing an otherwise healthy dog to natural air which will always be naturally full of germs is yet another way to boost the immune system. I've never had children and do not know what the vaccination protocol is for children but I've certainly seen infants (well under 3 months of age) out in public breathing germy air. Just some more food for thought.


Thanks Mary for starting this interesting topic.

I also chose to vaccinate as you mention above. Neither H or D have had a booster in over 3 years now, and I am yet to decide if I will have it done - so this topic is very, very interesting to me. I enjoy reading everyones thoughts, concerns & issues on vaccines.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

MaryH said:


> I started a thread late last night entitled "Vaccinations and General Health Concerns" expressing my thanks to all who share their opinions because whether I agree or not the opinions expressed encourage me to keep researching and learning. That thread was removed this morning.


My Kitzel is turning one in Feb. and I need to decide what to do about vaccinations. I have read about Jean Dodds protocol & I am trying to make a good decision. (I have always vaccinated my other dogs on a regular vet. recommended basis, but our last dog died w/mouth cancer so am reevaluating those decisions). I also have to abide by international regulations to be able to travel w/him. 
This sort of educational exchange is essential and a major part of why I personally joined SM. For us who live overseas and don't have access to all the advantages of living in the US this is sometimes literally a life-line for research and learning. 
I for one sincerely hope that we will be able to continue sharing discussion on these vital topics.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Sandi, I just sent you a PM about the booster shot and am going to repeat it here in the event that my opinion might be of value to others.

Although many refer to it as a 1-year booster, I personally call it a 12-month booster because I think a lot of people see "1-year" and think it means that their dog should get the booster at 1 year old. The 1-year or 12-month booster means that the dog should get the booster shot *12 months after its last puppy shot.* In the case of my most recent litter, they were born on 8/28/10 and received their last puppy shot on 12/18/10, at exactly 16 wks. of age. They are due for their booster shot on or about 12/18/11 which is *12 months or 1 year AFTER THEIR LAST PUPPY SHOT.*


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Mary, I will also ask this on the forum since others may want the information: "Do you have the booster administered as a unit of shots or divided up into seperate shots?" Just for everyone's clarity-- I am not talking about rabies here.
After this l year booster do you then recommend titers or ??
Much appreciate the discussion!


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

CloudClan said:


> I am curious about something. The way vaccinations work is to protect not only your own pet but a a larger community.
> 
> It is true in humans as well. When vaccinations are widely used, they have a much more protective effect for the whole populous.
> 
> ...



I think you make some very good points, Carina. I have discussed your points at length with my vet, who is pretty conservative. But as he gets older, he has grown to believe, as I do, that this is a personal choice, that we should treat dogs as individuals, and review their lifestyle for risk factors.

The vet was not at all concerned that my healthy dogs would transmit a disease to an already-vaccinated dog. 

We reviewed my dogs lifestyle, and the risk to them. He said that with the type of lives my dogs lead, the risk to them was low. So, after that very lengthy discussion with him, a LOT of thought and research, I decided that I would no longer vaccinate, except to be in compliance with the law. It is certainly not a decision I made flippantly, or because I am irresponsible. I fully understand the ramifications of it, and I act accordingly. I am very careful where I let my dogs go. They are inside most of the time. They do not go to a grooming salon. They are only around dogs whom I know and trust. When I am in a place where there are other dogs I do not know, there is no contact. I am an informed, responsible pet owner who dearly loves her dogs. 

My concern with vaccinations is ongoing booster shots for their entire adult lives vs titer testing. My dogs had puppy vaccinations, and titer testing shows full immunity. Why should I then vaccinate if they are immune? I know that Jackie and others say that titer results can change from day to day, but human vets are only vaccinated once in their lives for rabies. They don't get boosters. I'm not fully convinced that titer testing isn't reliable just because there might be a few exceptions. There are a few exceptions to everything, right? Some dogs might even contract the disease itself from the vaccination. It has happened. 

I'd like to see more research into booster shots, titers, and long-term immunity, so that the time period can be extended out even further than 3 years. 

My other big concern is why isn't there a smaller dose size for small dogs? Why does a Maltese receive the same amount as a Great Dane?

Vaccinations are not supposed to be given to sick dogs (its on the package label) Why then are there not legal exemptions for sick dogs for rabies vax in all states?

The Rabies Challenge Fund is trying to obtain funds for doing a study that they hope will result in a 7 year rabies vaccination and to allow for medical exemptions for sick dogs across the board. I hope that all of you who are concerned about over-vaccinating will support them if you can so that they can do this important study. It would be wonderful if we could move to a 7-year rabies shot. 

Please, all of this is my experience and my opinion.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

edelweiss said:


> Mary, I will also ask this on the forum since others may want the information: "Do you have the booster administered as a unit of shots or divided up into seperate shots?" Just for everyone's clarity-- I am not talking about rabies here.
> After this l year booster do you then recommend titers or ??
> Much appreciate the discussion!


I do a 4-way combo shot, DHPP, that covers Distemper, Hepatitis, Parvo, and Para-Influenza. I do not live in an area with a high incidence of Lepto and don't know of any vets in this area who use the 5-way DHLPP shot (which includes Lepto). If an owner wants to vaccinate against Lepto then their dog gets that vaccination separately. I know that many people do separate shots. My vet does not carry single vaccines, leaving me with three options: (1) ask my vet to order separate vaccines which would cost me a small fortune in both money and time; (2) order and administer separate vaccines myself which I am extremely reluctant to do in the event that a puppy might have an adverse reaction; or (3) have my vet give the 4-way combo shot. My personal choice is to do the 4-way vaccine. In defense of this position, I know my dogs, have never had immune system issues with my sires or dams, none of my dogs have ever had adverse reactions to a DHPP shot, and none of my puppies to date have had adverse reactions nor do they have any immune system issues of which I have been made aware. Grace, my 12-yr old rescue dog, had a very serious reaction to a Lyme vaccination when she was just a year old. It was a Fort Dodge vaccine that was later discovered to be a horrible vaccine. There are other Lyme vaccines available now but I am still reluctant to vaccinate despite the fact that I do have deer ticks in my area and one of my dogs did get Lyme Disease. This is a decision that I am still struggling with. After the 1-year booster I personally would titre before vaccinate and would do that 3 years after the 1-year booster. Please everyone understand that these are my personal choices for which I am willing to take 100% responsibility for the outcome. And my choices today are different than they were a few years ago and may be different a few years from now.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Recommendations for humans with high risk of rabies exposure vary by locality. You typically get 2-3 boosters in the initial series. Following that sometimes a titer is done and other times a vaccine is recommended every so many years. When you titer a human for rabies you run the same risk that in 2 years it may not be protective. But you also risk that the initial vaccines didn't work. And you risk that even if you did have a high titer your body might not fight real infection. No vaccine is 100%. Not even for people. 

I've seen adult dogs contract parvo after owners elected a 1 vaccine is good for life schedule. So I don't buy it. That's my personal opinion. 

Each of my dogs has a different vaccine protocol based on their individual need. I don't get flu vaccines because I feel confident enough to properly care for myself should I be ill and I am not in a high risk profession (where my vaccination would strongly effect those around me). Bet your butt I get my tetanus shots with all of the critter bites and scratches.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

jmm said:


> Recommendations for humans with high risk of rabies exposure vary by locality. You typically get 2-3 boosters in the initial series. Following that sometimes a titer is done and other times a vaccine is recommended every so many years. When you titer a human for rabies you run the same risk that in 2 years it may not be protective. But you also risk that the initial vaccines didn't work. And you risk that even if you did have a high titer your body might not fight real infection. No vaccine is 100%. Not even for people.
> 
> I've seen adult dogs contract parvo after owners elected a 1 vaccine is good for life schedule. So I don't buy it. That's my personal opinion.
> 
> Each of my dogs has a different vaccine protocol based on their individual need. I don't get flu vaccines because I feel confident enough to properly care for myself should I be ill and I am not in a high risk profession (where my vaccination would strongly effect those around me). Bet your butt I get my tetanus shots with all of the critter bites and scratches.



I didn't know that human rabies boosters were done. Thanks for that info. I was told differently. Perhaps like you said, it varies from place to place. You're right, there are no guarantees in life. It's a risk, whatever path we choose to take.


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Great discussion and really good to see the issue being explored. 

I didn't know that about the one year boosters. Thank you!

Mary, what happened to your lovely post/thread you started last night?
The last I saw of it was at 1:30 when I posted. I'm not understanding why your thread was removed or the other one. Did I miss something?



MaryH said:


> Sandi, I just sent you a PM about the booster shot and am going to repeat it here in the event that my opinion might be of value to others.
> 
> Although many refer to it as a 1-year booster, I personally call it a 12-month booster because I think a lot of people see "1-year" and think it means that their dog should get the booster at 1 year old. The 1-year or 12-month booster means that the dog should get the booster shot *12 months after its last puppy shot.* In the case of my most recent litter, they were born on 8/28/10 and received their last puppy shot on 12/18/10, at exactly 16 wks. of age. They are due for their booster shot on or about 12/18/11 which is *12 months or 1 year AFTER THEIR LAST PUPPY SHOT.*


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

puppy lover said:


> Mary, what happened to your lovely post/thread you started last night?
> The last I saw of it was at 1:30 when I posted. I'm not understanding why your thread was removed or the other one. Did I miss something?


My thread was removed. I don't know why, have sent a PM to Yung, and hope to hear back from him.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

I wondered about that too. I do know SM was down the night before and that early morning. Maybe there was a glitch. Surely there was nothing wrong with the thread.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Very interesting thread. I've been thinking a lot about this since taking the girls to a holistic vet. She strongly recommended that I forego all of the vaccines except for the rabies shot because of Sophie having Cushings and Annie has had reactions to vaccines in the past one being the dental vaccine which caused her to have to spend the night at the hospital very very ill. She's also very concerned about Annie's future health because of how much ivermectin she received when she had demadex for so long and was so sick with that.

The rabies vaccine she only gives the three year shot. And, for Sophie she said she would only give enough that she would be legally covered under the state three year law. However, the parish law says one year as opposed to our state law which leaves it up to the parish whether or not to go with the one year versus the three year. I need to find out if state law trumps parish law.

She also recommended that the heart worm meds should be administered once every three months instead of monthly. That schedule I'm not so sure about. 

And, of great concern is that my daughter is now fostering yorkies so I need to make sure she doesn't bring them over until they are vetted and get their shots. Sophie will be going to the vet soon and I will discuss that issue as well. She goes Monday for her stim test with the traditional vet and then to the hoslistic vet later next month. I need to make a list of questions. I wish I was as educated about all of this as others, but I'm so stressed out right now I cannot process half of what I read.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

sophie said:


> Very interesting thread. I've been thinking a lot about this since taking the girls to a holistic vet. She strongly recommended that I forego all of the vaccines except for the rabies shot because of Sophie having Cushings and Annie has had reactions to vaccines in the past one being the dental vaccine which caused her to have to spend the night at the hospital very very ill. She's also very concerned about Annie's future health because of how much ivermectin she received when she had demadex for so long and was so sick with that.
> 
> The rabies vaccine she only gives the three year shot. And, for Sophie she said she would only give enough that she would be legally covered under the state three year law. However, the parish law says one year as opposed to our state law which leaves it up to the parish whether or not to go with the one year versus the three year. I need to find out if state law trumps parish law.
> 
> ...


this brings up a very good thing 

NEVER GIVE DENTAL VACCINE. It has not been around very long and there are alot of reactions to this vaccine. We go to a board certified dentist and he does not recommend this at all just said brush their teeth. Another bc dentist I consulted about demi's teeth gave it in a dog and the dog went lame in that leg. 

I am so glad you brought this one up and shared what happened so others will see this and it will help others

I know you are overwhelmed as just went through that feeling when dex was diagnosed with kidney failure and could not think straight. Just grab a note pad and start writing down your questions as you go and take one step at a time as it will help  

I will provide some videos to watch as well so that will help in understanding some points of view as well. 

Just keep in mind when a dog has a reaction with a vaccination the next one can be much worse so definitely discuss this closely with your vet and go with your gut and your other one has health issues so it does say for healthy dogs only on vaccines 

I believe county over rules state laws sadly.


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## Maltbabe (Oct 10, 2010)

*I just learned*



dwerten said:


> this brings up a very good thing
> 
> NEVER GIVE DENTAL VACCINE. It has not been around very long and there are alot of reactions to this vaccine. We go to a board certified dentist and he does not recommend this at all just said brush their teeth. Another bc dentist I consulted about demi's teeth gave it in a dog and the dog went lame in that leg.
> 
> ...


OMG thank you so much! please keep us posted on tis dental vaccine issue.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

some videos on vaccinations


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

sophie said:


> Very interesting thread. I've been thinking a lot about this since taking the girls to a holistic vet. She strongly recommended that I forego all of the vaccines except for the rabies shot because of Sophie having Cushings and Annie has had reactions to vaccines in the past one being the dental vaccine which caused her to have to spend the night at the hospital very very ill. She's also very concerned about Annie's future health because of how much ivermectin she received when she had demadex for so long and was so sick with that.
> 
> The rabies vaccine she only gives the three year shot. And, for Sophie she said she would only give enough that she would be legally covered under the state three year law. However, the parish law says one year as opposed to our state law which leaves it up to the parish whether or not to go with the one year versus the three year. I need to find out if state law trumps parish law.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this Linda, I find your comments about heartworm interesting and would like to hear others' opinions & thoughts on this particular theory - whether 'right' or 'wrong' ... I have always given heartworm preventative medication on a monthly basis - all year round, and have never questioned my vet on this - it has never been forced on me, but the information I have seen/heard in the past led me to believe that heartworm is DEADLY, so its something I've just (albeit blindly) gone along with (monthly treatment).

I need to purchase more Interceptor next month, so I will make a note to have a chat to the vet about this & get his thoughts.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

I use interceptor at the heart safe instructions which is every 45 days.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

sophie said:


> Very interesting thread. I've been thinking a lot about this since taking the girls to a holistic vet. She strongly recommended that I forego all of the vaccines except for the rabies shot because of Sophie having Cushings and Annie has had reactions to vaccines in the past one being the dental vaccine which caused her to have to spend the night at the hospital very very ill. She's also very concerned about Annie's future health because of how much ivermectin she received when she had demadex for so long and was so sick with that.
> 
> The rabies vaccine she only gives the three year shot. And, for Sophie she said she would only give enough that she would be legally covered under the state three year law. However, the parish law says one year as opposed to our state law which leaves it up to the parish whether or not to go with the one year versus the three year. I need to find out if state law trumps parish law.
> 
> ...


Hi Linda, I have a vet friend who asked me recently if I have given the dental vaccination to any of my dogs yet. I didn't even know that there was a dental vaccine, said that and asked if the goal was to prevent plaque and tartar build-up or prevent gum disease. He said no, it was to fight off illness that could be caused by bacteria found in the mouth. Hmmm, sounded strange to me so I asked him if he was doing the dental vaccine on his dogs. No. Why? Because he cleans their teeth as needed. So do I. So what is the benefit of a dental vaccine? Supposedly to protect those dogs whose owners do not have teeth cleaning done as needed. Wouldn't the dog benefit more from teeth cleaning than from a mouth full of plaque/tartar and a vaccination? Yes. We both shrugged our shoulders and the conversation needed to go no further. I guess there are people who think a $20 vaccine is a better option than a $200 dental cleaning. Not me, thanks. As for rabies vaccinations, when a state law is written to allow local law exceptions, generally local law trumps state law unfortunately. As for heartworm meds, I give heartworm every 3 months. I live in an area surrounded by wetlands, sometimes I think the mosquito is our state bird, I have done the every 3 month schedule for years (my oldest dog is almost 14) and no one has ever gotten heartworm. I'm comfortable with my choice. I've always tried to arrange a rescue pick-up for early on a Saturday morning and bring that dog to my vet before bringing it into my home. For the times when I've had to bring the dog into my home before a vet visit I keep the rescue separate from my other dogs until after its vet visit. And I won't ever bring a rescue dog in if I have puppies who have not yet had their first puppy shot.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

MaryH said:


> Hi Linda, I have a vet friend who asked me recently if I have given the dental vaccination to any of my dogs yet. I didn't even know that there was a dental vaccine, said that and asked if the goal was to prevent plaque and tartar build-up or prevent gum disease. He said no, it was to fight off illness that could be caused by bacteria found in the mouth. Hmmm, sounded strange to me so I asked him if he was doing the dental vaccine on his dogs. No. Why? Because he cleans their teeth as needed. So do I. So what is the benefit of a dental vaccine? Supposedly to protect those dogs whose owners do not have teeth cleaning done as needed. Wouldn't the dog benefit more from teeth cleaning than from a mouth full of plaque/tartar and a vaccination? Yes. We both shrugged our shoulders and the conversation needed to go no further. I guess there are people who think a $20 vaccine is a better option than a $200 dental cleaning. Not me, thanks. As for rabies vaccinations, when a state law is written to allow local law exceptions, generally local law trumps state law unfortunately. *As for heartworm meds, I give heartworm every 3 months*. I live in an area surrounded by wetlands, sometimes I think the mosquito is our state bird, I have done the every 3 month schedule for years (my oldest dog is almost 14) and no one has ever gotten heartworm. I'm comfortable with my choice. I've always tried to arrange a rescue pick-up for early on a Saturday morning and bring that dog to my vet before bringing it into my home. For the times when I've had to bring the dog into my home before a vet visit I keep the rescue separate from my other dogs until after its vet visit. And I won't ever bring a rescue dog in if I have puppies who have not yet had their first puppy shot.


Thanks Mary, I have never given any thought to reducing the heartworm meds to every 3 months, so this is something new to me. Do you recall if there was a partcular piece of information you learned to aid your decision/choice to do this?


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

jmm said:


> I use interceptor at the heart safe instructions which is every 45 days.


thanks Jackie - I didn't realise it was 45 days - I have been giving per calendar month .... I have learned some good things here today! :thumbsup:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

It is labeled for every 30 days, Jac....but Novartis also has a "heart safe" lower dosing schedule which is what I use.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

jmm said:


> It is labeled for every 30 days, Jac....but Novartis also has a "heart safe" lower dosing schedule which is what I use.


Good to know, thanks! :thumbsup:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> Thanks Mary, I have never given any thought to reducing the heartworm meds to every 3 months, so this is something new to me. Do you recall if there was a partcular piece of information you learned to aid your decision/choice to do this?


Several years ago I took in a rescue dog. It was mid-September, the dog had a wellness exam, vaccinations and a heartworm test (negative) in July, but had never been given any heartworm preventative. I brought her to my vet and asked if she needed another heartworm test. He said no, just put her on heartworm preventative, further explaining that if the dog had been infected after the heartworm test then Heartguard, my preventative of choice, would kill off any microfilaria, thus breaking the cycle of a developing heartworm. So I asked him to explain the cycle. He said it takes anywhere from 4-5 months from the time a dog is infected for the worm to develop to adult stage and that ivermectin, the active ingredient in Heartguard would kill the worm during the development stage. So, naturally, I asked why I was treating my own dogs monthly and could I instead start treating them quarterly. His response (with rolling eyes and a big sigh): "As your vet I have an obligation to advise you in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. They recommend monthly treatment and will guarantee effectiveness only if administered in accordance with their recommendations. As your friend, your thinking is correct and will not put your dogs at risk." I do not know if the same holds true with heartworm preventatives other than Heartguard. It is my understanding that it is the Ivermectin in Heartguard that will stop the cycle.


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

MaryH said:


> Several years ago I took in a rescue dog. It was mid-September, the dog had a wellness exam, vaccinations and a heartworm test (negative) in July, but had never been given any heartworm preventative. I brought her to my vet and asked if she needed another heartworm test. He said no, just put her on heartworm preventative, further explaining that if the dog had been infected after the heartworm test then Heartguard, my preventative of choice, would kill off any microfilaria, thus breaking the cycle of a developing heartworm. So I asked him to explain the cycle. He said it takes anywhere from 4-5 months from the time a dog is infected for the worm to develop to adult stage and that ivermectin, the active ingredient in Heartguard would kill the worm during the development stage. So, naturally, I asked why I was treating my own dogs monthly and could I instead start treating them quarterly. His response (with rolling eyes and a big sigh): "As your vet I have an obligation to advise you in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. They recommend monthly treatment and will guarantee effectiveness only if administered in accordance with their recommendations. As your friend, your thinking is correct and will not put your dogs at risk." I do not know if the same holds true with heartworm preventatives other than Heartguard. It is my understanding that it is the Ivermectin in Heartguard that will stop the cycle.


Thanks Mary, this is all very good for my little brain to learn these things!

I switched from Heartguard to Interceptor just under 12 months ago. I just went to get the box to check the active ingredients .... I can't see it anywhere written on the box - wow! So I dig out the leaflet inside the box, and I still cant find the active ingredients!! It does also have a 100% Guarantee - provided you dose as per the instructed 30 days.

Ok ...under 'precautions' what it does say is ...... "Milbemycin oxime has been tested in over 75 differnt breeds of dogs...." So I guess that's the active ingredient??

So weird it doesn't list it on the package - I actually thought that was illegal in this country?? I could be wrong there. 

Off to the Novartis website to see what else I can learn!


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

Oh, but I think that Heartguard and Comfortis can't be used together - because of the Ivermectin .... I *think* Does anyone know if this is correct??


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> Thanks Mary, this is all very good for my little brain to learn these things!
> 
> I switched from Heartguard to Interceptor just under 12 months ago. I just went to get the box to check the active ingredients .... I can't see it anywhere written on the box - wow! So I dig out the leaflet inside the box, and I still cant find the active ingredients!! It does also have a 100% Guarantee - provided you dose as per the instructed 30 days.
> 
> ...


Jac, the girls' holistic vet put Annie on Interceptor and left Sophie on the Heartguard, both on the three month schedule.



Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> Oh, but I think that Heartguard and Comfortis can't be used together - because of the Ivermectin .... I *think* Does anyone know if this is correct??


The traditional vet didn't have a problem with the girls being on Heartguard and Comfortis, but the holstic vet had a BIG issue with it and said to take them off straight away. I'm fortunate that we don't have fleas in the yard. But, she did recommend the human grade diamanthus(?) earth to prevent fleas.


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## sophie (Jul 9, 2006)

Thanks, Mary. It's been a while since Annie had the dental vaccine. I could have kicked myself for giving it to them and hope it and the ivermectin I gave her are not a ticking time bomb. The holistic vet had never even heard of such a vaccine and couldn't believe it. 

Thanks for sharing your experience with the three month heartworm schedule. The girls are on it, but I've been on pins and needles about it as we seem to share the same state bird. I'm only about a mile from a big lake one way and a mile from the marshland the other way, but I'm very vigilant about the yard and standing water and the time of day I take them outside. 

As far as the rescues and vet visits...do you bring them home straight after the vet visit? I'm sure you do, but wanted to ask. So far, all but one of my daughter's fosters have come as strays from shelters and they've usually been at the shelter for a while and had their shots before going to the vet. So, the timing would be okay? She herself adopted one, but he's had all the usual vaccines according to the rescue's policies before she adopted him. I'm hoping to get her to take him to the holistic vet.

Linda



MaryH said:


> Hi Linda, I have a vet friend who asked me recently if I have given the dental vaccination to any of my dogs yet. I didn't even know that there was a dental vaccine, said that and asked if the goal was to prevent plaque and tartar build-up or prevent gum disease. He said no, it was to fight off illness that could be caused by bacteria found in the mouth. Hmmm, sounded strange to me so I asked him if he was doing the dental vaccine on his dogs. No. Why? Because he cleans their teeth as needed. So do I. So what is the benefit of a dental vaccine? Supposedly to protect those dogs whose owners do not have teeth cleaning done as needed. Wouldn't the dog benefit more from teeth cleaning than from a mouth full of plaque/tartar and a vaccination? Yes. We both shrugged our shoulders and the conversation needed to go no further. I guess there are people who think a $20 vaccine is a better option than a $200 dental cleaning. Not me, thanks. As for rabies vaccinations, when a state law is written to allow local law exceptions, generally local law trumps state law unfortunately. As for heartworm meds, I give heartworm every 3 months. I live in an area surrounded by wetlands, sometimes I think the mosquito is our state bird, I have done the every 3 month schedule for years (my oldest dog is almost 14) and no one has ever gotten heartworm. I'm comfortable with my choice. I've always tried to arrange a rescue pick-up for early on a Saturday morning and bring that dog to my vet before bringing it into my home. For the times when I've had to bring the dog into my home before a vet visit I keep the rescue separate from my other dogs until after its vet visit. And I won't ever bring a rescue dog in if I have puppies who have not yet had their first puppy shot.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes, Linda, I bring the rescue dogs home right away. The only exception is that occasionally I've picked one up early evening while my vet is still open. If the dog needs a spay/neuter then I might bring the dog directly to my vet, board it overnight, then pick it up the next evening after surgery.

Honestly, I've never lost sleep over my heartworm schedule and have been doing this for years, and have wetlands and sometimes standing water abutting my back yard. I can't stand mosquitoes ... they drive me buggy! :w00t:


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum (Jun 11, 2005)

sophie said:


> Jac, the girls' holistic vet put Annie on Interceptor and left Sophie on the Heartguard, both on the three month schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> The traditional vet didn't have a problem with the girls being on Heartguard and Comfortis, but the holstic vet had a BIG issue with it and said to take them off straight away. I'm fortunate that we don't have fleas in the yard. But, she did recommend the human grade diamanthus(?) earth to prevent fleas.


Thanks Linda, our vet clinic has both traditional vets, and Dr Bill - our fave Holistic vet - But unless I make a request to specifically see Dr Bill, we get 'pot luck' ... I do like all the vets there, but Dr Bill and Dr Crawford (who is traditional, but leans towards holistic) are my favourites. I will ask them both their thoughts on heartworm prevention when I see them next.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Great information ladies! Thank you.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

I have to give Kitzel Lepto vaccine as we have so much here in Greece. I have read there is an old & a new lepto vaccine. Can anyone give me more info on this? Apparently there were more reactions to the old one? Since I am in Greece I need specificity here---which company made the old one---how do I know which I am getting, etc. Advice welcomed!


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

edelweiss said:


> I have to give Kitzel Lepto vaccine as we have so much here in Greece. I have read there is an old & a new lepto vaccine. Can anyone give me more info on this? Apparently there were more reactions to the old one? Since I am in Greece I need specificity here---which company made the old one---how do I know which I am getting, etc. Advice welcomed!


I will ask our vet on monday as he said they have a very safe one they use even though I still do not want to do it with mine he did say it was very safe after Dex was so sick and lepto was something they had to rule out at specialty hospital. Just keep in mind the lepto vaccine does not cover all strains so your dog can still get lepto even if vaccinated. Ask your vet how many cases of lepto they see a year.

jmm might know as well so hopefully she can post the one she knows to be the safest as well


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

dwerten said:


> I will ask our vet on monday as he said they have a very safe one they use even though I still do not want to do it with mine he did say it was very safe. Just keep in mind the lepto vaccine does not cover all strains so your dog can still get lepto even if vaccinated. Ask your vet how many cases of lepto they see a year.
> 
> jmm might know as well so hopefully she can post the one she knows to be the safest as well


Deb, I did ask her already & that is where I made the decison to do it. We have tons of rats in Athens & LOTS of lepto cases---many, many was her answer.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

jmm said:


> I use interceptor at the heart safe instructions which is every 45 days.


jmm I have a question on this and know you know alot on this as Lucy came from Georgia and came to us in California and we did heartworm testing on her when she came here immediately with a full panel and all was fine. I am having her rechecked at 6 mos which is in february to be safe before going under for dental as do not want to take any risks as we do not use heart worm in our area here in california. 

Would Lucy be all clear after this or should I do at 7 months instead of at exactly 6 mos to be sure we are clear?

What i did find out and was surprised about is everyone says interceptor is safest for toy breeds over heartguard yet when i asked about these two with Lucy they stated interceptor kills the heartworm faster and therefore stronger and when a dog gets heartworm many times they treat with heartguard to kill it as it kills them slowly rather than using interceptor as it kills them too fast and could kill the dog. This is why the dog cannot have heartworm meds before testing with interceptor most importantly. 

So if stronger than heartguard why is it safer for toy breeds? No one could really answer me on that and still want to understand this even though we do not use heartworm here


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

edelweiss said:


> Deb, I did ask her already & that is where I made the decison to do it. We have tons of rats in Athens & LOTS of lepto cases---many, many was her answer.


wow that is tough then. Make sure you separate out from other vaccines and I would stay in my car up to an hour after vaccine and read a book just to be extra careful since this one is most reactive in toy breeds. My vet said he has not had a problem with this new one though so will see which one he recommends and hopefully jmm will as well to see if she agrees on this one too.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

MaryH said:


> Several years ago I took in a rescue dog. It was mid-September, the dog had a wellness exam, vaccinations and a heartworm test (negative) in July, but had never been given any heartworm preventative. I brought her to my vet and asked if she needed another heartworm test. He said no, just put her on heartworm preventative, further explaining that if the dog had been infected after the heartworm test then Heartguard, my preventative of choice, would kill off any microfilaria, thus breaking the cycle of a developing heartworm. So I asked him to explain the cycle. He said it takes anywhere from 4-5 months from the time a dog is infected for the worm to develop to adult stage and that ivermectin, the active ingredient in Heartguard would kill the worm during the development stage. So, naturally, I asked why I was treating my own dogs monthly and could I instead start treating them quarterly. His response (with rolling eyes and a big sigh): "As your vet I have an obligation to advise you in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. They recommend monthly treatment and will guarantee effectiveness only if administered in accordance with their recommendations. As your friend, your thinking is correct and will not put your dogs at risk." I do not know if the same holds true with heartworm preventatives other than Heartguard. It is my understanding that it is the Ivermectin in Heartguard that will stop the cycle.


this is what i was told about heartguard but not with interceptor as heartguard kills them slowly but interceptor kills them fast and could kill the dog due to killing them fast.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

Harley & Dakotas Mum said:


> Thanks Mary, this is all very good for my little brain to learn these things!
> 
> I switched from Heartguard to Interceptor just under 12 months ago. I just went to get the box to check the active ingredients .... I can't see it anywhere written on the box - wow! So I dig out the leaflet inside the box, and I still cant find the active ingredients!! It does also have a 100% Guarantee - provided you dose as per the instructed 30 days.
> 
> ...


this is correct hearguard uses ivermectin and interceptor uses the above ingredient both react differently - some do not like ivermectin as it is not approved by fda for use in dogs and is used off label for things such as demodex mange. Ivermectin interact with other drugs such as ketaconazole if ivermectin is given in high doses like for demodex as my friends yorkie had ivermectin toxicity due to this when her dog was being treated by a dermatologist for demodex. The amount in heartguard is very minimal though. 

Also they say not to mix heartguard with comfortis I believe as well due to possible reactions. Very important to read up on meds before giving and contact manufacturers and ask questions as they have vets on staff that answer any questions on drugs. I have done this many times and novartis is great as they helped me alot when dee dee was on atopica and answered all my questions.


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

another video


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

I know people here and elsewhere who have chosen their brand of heartworm treatment based on dosage size; i.e. Heartguard good for dogs up to 22 lbs., Interceptor good for dogs up to 10 lbs., etc. This is another of those areas where my thinking and my decisions are fluid, not static. I used Heartguard for years, giving it every 3 months, not monthly. After much thought, last year I switched to Interceptor. The deciding factor was dosage. But I've never felt totally comfortable with it because I know that Ivermectin kills the heartworm microfillaria during its developmental stage but to the best of my knowledge the other heartworm treatments do not. I've used Heartguard for years, gave it monthly without question for years, switched to the every 3 months schedule in 2002 and haven't ever had a problem. What I do NOT use is Heartguard PLUS. The "PLUS" is to kill off parasites. My dogs don't have parasites and I'm not going to treat them for something they don't have. I know there are people on here who have said in the past that their dogs vomited after being given certain heartworm treatments and I've often wondered if the treatment was a combo-type treatment rather than one treating just heartworm.


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

dwerten said:


> wow that is tough then. Make sure you separate out from other vaccines and I would stay in my car up to an hour after vaccine and read a book just to be extra careful since this one is most reactive in toy breeds. My vet said he has not had a problem with this new one though so will see which one he recommends and hopefully jmm will as well to see if she agrees on this one too.


Thanks Deb!
Can you post it & send me a pm in case I miss your posting? I very, very much appreciate your help here! I am not due for a couple of months but am lining up my ducks! Blessings & much love!:wub:


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## dwerten (Oct 6, 2007)

edelweiss said:


> Thanks Deb!
> Can you post it & send me a pm in case I miss your posting? I very, very much appreciate your help here! I am not due for a couple of months but am lining up my ducks! Blessings & much love!:wub:


ok will do and also pm jmm and get her take on this one as well


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

Because I live in the south, I use Interceptor every 45 days. If it is an extremely cold January/Feb, I may or may not skip it then. My dogs are mostly inside.


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## educ8m (May 19, 2010)

MaryH said:


> Sandi, I just sent you a PM about the booster shot and am going to repeat it here in the event that my opinion might be of value to others.
> 
> Although many refer to it as a 1-year booster, I personally call it a 12-month booster because I think a lot of people see "1-year" and think it means that their dog should get the booster at 1 year old. The 1-year or 12-month booster means that the dog should get the booster shot *12 months after its last puppy shot.* In the case of my most recent litter, they were born on 8/28/10 and received their last puppy shot on 12/18/10, at exactly 16 wks. of age. They are due for their booster shot on or about 12/18/11 which is *12 months or 1 year AFTER THEIR LAST PUPPY SHOT.*


Thanks, Mary. I did not know this. I was one of those who thought the booster was given at one year of age. I hope my holistic vet would have corrected me. 

One of the most informative and easy to understand sites that I found about hearworm medication is Heartworm Medication: Is Year Round Protection Necessary? | Truth4Dogs . They have a section titled *How Heartworms Infect Dogs: It’s Not Easy! *This changed my whole way of thinking about hearworm medication. Before learning about this, I was also under the impression that hearworm medication was just protecting my dogs from heartworms and didn't understand that it was a poison that was killing any heartworm larvae. There is also a link that takes you to another site gives the timing options for the medication. Citadel Tibetan Mastiffs Heartworm TimingOn this page it states 
_In a study entitled “Seasonal Timing of Heartworm Chemoprophylaxis (Heartworm Meds) in the United States”, Dr. David Knight and James Lok of the *American Heartworm Society* have taken the guesswork out of when to start and stop heartworm prevention. It was found that specific conditions must exist in order for the larvae in the mosquito to move on to stage L3, allowing the mosquito to pass on heartworm through its mouthparts. The larvae require approximately 30 consecutive days of 60-degree weather where the temperature does not dip below 57F (14C) in order to reach this condition._
_Simply put, it must stay above 60 degrees for 30 consecutive days *AND* nights for the larvae to progress to stage L3 and be passed through the mouthparts of a mosquito to a host animal. If the temperature dips below 57F the maturation is retarded and cannot continue. This process would become accelerated if there were two weeks of temperature at or above 80F (27C), days *AND* nights. As a result, heartworm disease is not only geographically limited, but also seasonally limited. For many of us this means that year round heartworm prevention is totally unnecessary._

When I first saw this information in 2008, it changed the way I gave my dogs their medication. I had been dispensing it once a month, but after a lot more research I changed. Based on their maps, I began giving heartworm medication on June 1 (earlier if we have unseasonally warm weather) and give it every three months until December. Based on your climate, the start and stop dates vary.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

Hey, Deb, great info. My schedule has always been Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1 and Sep 1. This year I skipped January and figured I could just as easily do Februry. But after reading the info you linked to I will probably skip the winter dosage going forward and give heartworm three times a year.


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

MaryH said:


> Hey, Deb, great info. My schedule has always been Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1 and Sep 1. This year I skipped January figured I could just as easily do Februry. But after reading the info you linked to I will probably skip the winter dosage going forward and give heartworm three times a year.



Mary, with the cold temps in Boston this year, you could probably skip it all together! (Just kidding) :HistericalSmiley:


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

No kidding, Suzan. When the sun comes out and the warmer temps start to melt all this snow into standing water maybe all the mosquitoes will drown!!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

The old lepto vaccine would cover 2 serovars. The new one covers 4. Here in the US you have Fort Dodge and Pfizer that make seperate 4-way lepto vaccines. In general I prefer Pfizer. For dogs who are at extra high risk the vaccine should be given every 6 months. It does not really last a whole year. For dogs in an area where lepto is seasonal, it should be given about a month prior to the start of lepto season. Roo is at relatively low risk to contract lepto, but extremely high risk for it being fatal to him. He gets vaccinated once a year in the winter so he is set for spring/summer. 

For a dog with unknown heartworm history the recommendation is to test, start prevention, and test 6 months later. Then once a year as usual. 

Milbemycin does work differently from ivermectin in killing heartworms. The best way I would describe it is milbemycin is slower. 

The reason I recommend Interceptor over Heartgard for our breed in general is:
1. Heartgard is contraindicated for dogs with liver dysfunction 
2. Heartgard is contraindicated for dogs with seizures
Both of these are common in Maltese
3. Interceptor is dosed in a smaller size for tiny dogs.
4. Heartgard chews must be chewed up completely by the dog. Many toy dogs won't do so. Interceptor is a tiny taste tab which can be pilled down the dog's throat. 
5. Interceptor is extremely safe. Your dog could eat an entire box and it would not be toxic. 

There is nothing wrong with using Heartgard for a healthy toy dog that chews up the chew. I only keep 1 healthy dog at home, so Interceptor makes more sense LOL 

For my dog that went into liver failure a few times, Dr. Center had me use Revolution. That or Advantage Multi are fair game if you don't need a really good tick prevention.


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

There is no solid research on combining Ivermectin with Comfortis, but it is generally avoided since we do know there can be negative interactions. Hypothetically the dose in heartgard is not enough to cause a bad interaction. I personally wouldn't combine them.


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

Harry is exempt from all vaccines due to his suppressed immune system. For that reason, Harry stays mostly in the house and in our backyard. If I take him someplace (he loves to ride in the car :thumbsup I'll carry him wherever I am and keep him away from other dogs. Harry did have all of his puppy vaccines without a problem... so I'm hoping that there's still a little immunity left... but I'm extremely careful nonetheless.

Because of Harry's illness, I pretty much keep Benny, Teddy, and Max away from other dogs as well. They do get vaccinated for rabies as needed, but my vet suggested titering them this year because of their own health issues (Ben has epilepsy and Teddy occasionally has seizures also.) 

I use Revolution as a heartworm/flea preventative on everyone, including Harry. I apply it every 3 months to the little guys and every month to Max because he likes to spend a lot of time in the backyard and I feel that he needs the extra protection. We don't usually have a problem with ticks in our yard. I don't put flea preventative on anyone in the winter months. 

I don't use a groomer or board the boys, so bordatella is not an issue. I also opt not to get the Lyme Disease vaccine for anyone. I used to get my big guys vaccinated for Lyme disease, but even with the vaccination, my golden retriever got the disease. He then developed lymphoma, that the doctor said was somehow related to the Lyme disease, and died from that. The doctor said that only about 60% of the lyme disease strains are covered by the vaccine, so we opt out. 

I hope I'm doing the best I can to keep the boys healthy. Am I missing anything?

Thanks for starting this thread, Mary, I've really enjoyed reading it.... so much good information!!

Debbie


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

harrysmom said:


> ............
> Because of Harry's illness,.................I hope I'm doing the best I can to keep the boys healthy. Am I missing anything?
> 
> Debbie


Debbie you have done such an amazing job with Harry!! Girl, he most likely would not be alive, much less healthy, without your expert and never failing care!!

Rest assured knowing this! :wub:


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## Nikki's Mom (Feb 13, 2008)

:goodpost:



Furbaby's Mommie said:


> Debbie you have done such an amazing job with Harry!! Girl, he most likely would not be alive, much less healthy, without your expert and never failing care!!
> 
> Rest assured knowing this! :wub:


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## harrysmom (Sep 28, 2007)

Furbaby's Mommie said:


> Debbie you have done such an amazing job with Harry!! Girl, he most likely would not be alive, much less healthy, without your expert and never failing care!!
> 
> Rest assured knowing this! :wub:





Nikki's Mom said:


> :goodpost:


Thanks, ladies.... I do love that little guy. :wub::wub: What a fighter!!!


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## puppy lover (Dec 25, 2007)

Cosy said:


> I wondered about that too. I do know SM was down the night before and that early morning. Maybe there was a glitch. Surely there was nothing wrong with the thread.


I agree and hope it was a glitch.


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