# Friend Is Going To Go To A PuppyMill -- Need Help



## CalsMom (Nov 18, 2004)

My friend who on another thread lost a new puppy to parvo wants to find another puppy. Now she is talking about Missouri and flying a puppy to NY. She is in a sensitive state so I can't give her any lectures. She says she knows about puppy mills etc. but she doesn't realize that they misrepresent themselves all the time.

Anyone with info on a young rescue in the PA/NJ/NY/NYC or CT area please let me know. And anyone with info on GOOD breeders in those areas, please let me know too. Thanks all!

n.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CalsMom_@Dec 1 2004, 11:01 AM
> *My friend who on another thread lost a new puppy to parvo wants to find another puppy.  Now she is talking about Missouri and flying a puppy to NY.  She is in a sensitive state so I can't give her any lectures.  She says she knows about puppy mills etc. but she doesn't realize that they misrepresent themselves all the time.
> 
> Anyone with info on a young rescue in the PA/NJ/NY/NYC or CT area please let me know.  And anyone with info on GOOD breeders in those areas, please let me know too.  Thanks all!
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Nancy, would it help to send her the USDA list and indicate that she shouldn't buy from that list. Ladys Mom posted that URL a while back. I could try to find it if you need it. 

The American Maltese Assoc. list might then be a good one to show her regarding locating a responsible breeder. Members of AMA have to abide by the rules and the rules don't allow selling to brokers, etc. It is better than just a shot in the dark, if you know what I mean!! 

The AMA breeders list can be found on the 4th link listed on the left nav of this page: American Maltese Association

I guess you know that Missouri is the "U.S. Capital of Puppymills"!!

I think it is great that you are trying to help her!! Good luck to you both!


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## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

Understanding that she is in a "sensitive state", I would feel obligated to warn her strongly about repeating history by dealing with a puppymill puppy. She certainly doesn't need another heartbreak.

It's kind of your duty. To her and to the poor breeding dogs and their offspring from these puppymills.

My daughter's Cocker is still sick after 3 weeks. I believe she is going to have a chronically ill dog even if he recovers from this bout of what we believe is tonsillitis. 

I hope someone can help you and come up with an alternative for her so she forgets about the puppymill pup.


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## saltymalty (Sep 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CalsMom_@Dec 1 2004, 11:01 AM
> *My friend who on another thread lost a new puppy to parvo wants to find another puppy.  Now she is talking about Missouri and flying a puppy to NY.  She is in a sensitive state so I can't give her any lectures.  She says she knows about puppy mills etc. but she doesn't realize that they misrepresent themselves all the time.
> 
> Anyone with info on a young rescue in the PA/NJ/NY/NYC or CT area please let me know.  And anyone with info on GOOD breeders in those areas, please let me know too.  Thanks all!
> ...


[/QUOTE]
I can say that for NJ, she should definitely investigate the AMA's breeders list. There are only three, but all of them are good. She can also check with the NJ Federation of Dog Clubs. They maintain a list of breeders as well. She may have to wait a bit to get a puppy, but in the long run, the wait is definitely worth it. We waited about four months to get our puppy. We chose the breeder first, then waited for her to have an available litter. Is your friend on this forum? If so, could we send her some information?


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Nancy, your friend may have to wait awhile before getting another dog. If I recall, Parvo is very contagious and can linger, so there is a quarentine period before bringing another dog home. 3-6 months is recommended here:

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/Prog-Sh.../pdfs/Parvo.pdf

Get her to read up on puppy mills. Here are some links:

http://www.nopuppymills.com/

http://prisonersofgreed.org/USDA.html

Not only will she chance a sick puppy if she gets a puppy from this person, but puppy mill puppies often have behavior problems. I'm sure the Maltese disposition helped her choose this breed, but she could end up with a very un-Maltese like puppy. Puppy mill puppies can become aggressive when they mature to adults, can be very difficult to socialize, often impossible to completely housebreak.

Northcentral Maltese is a great rescue group nationwide:

http://www.malteserescue.homestead.com/

And Metro Malts adopt in the tri-state area:

http://www.malteserescue.com/


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## CalsMom (Nov 18, 2004)

Question from my friend and I am also forwarding your responses which are VERY helpful. Thank you.


would it be common for a puppy miller to offer dogs with pedigrees of this puppies calibur. She has over 40 champions in her bloodline going back four generations her grandfather being last was a champion...


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CalsMom_@Dec 1 2004, 03:44 PM
> *would it be common for a puppy miller to offer dogs with pedigrees of this puppies calibur.  She has over 40 champions in her bloodline going back four generations her grandfather being last was a champion...
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=19697*


[/QUOTE]


Look what became of the Villa Malta line in Jennie Siliski's hands..........

Besides, a lot of those pedigrees are faked which is why the push for DNA testing now.

Make sure your friend checks the USDA list:

http://www.geocities.com/malteseonly/usda/

I can't imagine why your friend would want to take a chance on getting a puppy from this person when there are so many better choices. Why risk the heartache and horrible vet bills?

Can you get her to join this forum and learn more before she gets another one? She should wait a few months anyway or she risks infecting another dog. Maybe if she learned more, she'd make a wiser decision.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by CalsMom_@Dec 1 2004, 03:44 PM
> *Question from my friend and I am also forwarding your responses which are VERY helpful.  Thank you.
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Are the names on the pedigree those that are some of the top today such as Rhapsody, Divine, Marcris, etc. or are they unknown? Can she check out the Web sites of the breeders who produced the champions, just to get a feel for who they are. Once she has the names, she could even contact the breeder to see if a puppy (the sire, for example) was sold to this breeder in Missouri. I did that with my breeder, just to make sure it was all on the up and up.

How could someone like this (meaning a broker or miller) get the best of the best champions? These breeders are pretty picky about where their dogs go... especially if they are going to be bred... then... they are extremely picky and some won't even sell them at all except with limited paper as pets. Just some quick thoughts off the top of my head.....


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)




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## Elegant (Jul 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nichole_@Dec 1 2004, 01:57 PM
> *I just wanted to add my two cents, but I think Lady's Mom gave some of the best advice when she said that the Parvo virus may still be in the house.  If you can convince your friend to hold off on getting a puppy while the virus "dies" then perhaps she will be out of her fragile state and you can talk to her about the dangers of a puppymill.  Or perhaps you could even look at some reputable breeders, be put on a waiting list and by the time puppies become available, the house should be parvo free.
> <div align="right">index.php?act=findpost&pid=19706*


[/QUOTE]
I concur!









~Elegant


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## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

This is how I learned that Fantasia was a puppy mill dog. When I got my papers there was a champion dog on her papers (in red ink). I was excited to see this and thought she was a legit dog (not a puppy mill dog), but when I shared my news with AMR (Nancy, you might have seen my post about it), I was told that that was a dead giveaway that she WAS a puppy mill dog. 
Here's what I was told.
A puppy mill with get on a waiting list for a champion's puppy. They pretend they are a family that just wants to buy a puppy. Then when they get the puppy they breed it to death and that's why there is only one champion in their blood line and it's usually the grandsire. 
Anyway I can find my old post about it on AMR but here is a picture of Fantasia's "papers" and the one red champion grandsire is shown.
http://www.geocities.com/ladybug_960/Pedigree.jpg

On a side note: it looks like AMR is working again. Two people posted and it worked! Just letting everyone know.


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## Lilly521 (May 29, 2004)

I know a lot of people and no matter what i tell them about how bad a puppymill is they just dont care that much the best thing i have every been able to say to them is to look at the prices i mean pet store dogs cost a ton, a maltese from a really great breeder around here is $3000 a maltese from a nasty pet store is $2500 if she wont listen you could try going in that direction with presenting it to her it know its kinda cold and dosnt have much to do with the awful way the dogs are treated at puppy mills but it seems to work


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## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

Yeah except some pet stores sell for alot less than breeders. The pet store we got Fantasia from was cheap. Fantasia was $800 something. After tax and everything she came to more like the upper $900's close to $1,000. But when you look at $900 or $2,000, you tend to want to go for the $900. So if the pet store prices around you are expensive I would go that angle but if not then maybe you should show her some pictures of puppy mills online. I know she won't think that cute puppy at the pet store is related to any of those dirty, sickly dogs form the puppy mills but maybe it will make an impression on her. You never know.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Petland is the only pet store here that sells live animals and they sell Maltese for about $1500. There is s how breeder a couple hours away who sells pet quality pups for about the same, maybe a bit more. 

I have seen newspaper ads selling Maltese puppies for as little as $500 here. Most likely, these are unexperienced backyard bredders whose breeding pair came from a puppy mill, but at least these puppies are home raised like puppies rather than like rabbits in wire cages. The genetics would be an unknown, but at least you'd hopefully be getting a dog who would have gotten a better start in life. The big problem is that most of the puppies I have seen advertised are only 6 weeks old so an important part of their socialization from Mom would be missed.


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## FannyMay (Nov 18, 2004)

I know I am going to get crap for this but I am going to say it anyway.
The fact that puppy mill dogs are like "rabbits in wire cages" isn't the worst part of puppy mills. I think that "backyard breeders" who breed two pet store dogs are just as bad as a puppy mill. They may love their dogs and care for them instead of not caring if they die, BUT both are breeding deformities into the Maltese breed. They do not try to better the breed weather it's because of ignorance or greed, they are doing the same thing. The backyard breeder's dogs are just as unhealthy as the puppy mill dogs. They are both going to have health issues and cost a fortune in vet bills. Even though properly bred dogs also have a chance of big vet bills because of health problems, the backyard and puppy mill dogs are _guaranteed_ health problems and huge vet bills. 
I know pets in general are not cheap, but look at Lady, Missy, and all the other puppy mill dogs that have grown up. You guys pay way more in vet bills than anyone I know. 
Nancy, you need to appeal to that side. Tell your friend about Missy and Lady, tell your friend of all the other puppy mill stories that you can. Tell her about Fantasia if you want (since we know for a fact that she came from a pet store). Just tell her _something_ that will let her know that backyard and pet store puppies are going to cost alot more in the *long run* because it guarantees health problems. Paying $2,000-$3,000 for a well bread dog now ensures less money in vet bills in the long run. If she still insists on getting a cheaper dog, try to talk her into setting aside the money she would have paid for the cheaper dog and then setting aside a little money at a time that she would have been paying in vet bills for this dog. Soon she will have enough to buy the better dog.


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## k/c mom (Oct 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by FannyMay_@Dec 7 2004, 07:21 AM
> *I know I am going to get crap for this but I am going to say it anyway.
> The fact that puppy mill dogs are like "rabbits in wire cages" isn't the worst part of puppy mills.  I think that "backyard breeders" who breed two pet store dogs are just as bad as a puppy mill.  They may love their dogs and care for them instead of not caring if they die, BUT both are breeding deformities into the Maltese breed.  They do not try to better the breed weather it's because of ignorance or greed, they are doing the same thing.  The backyard breeder's dogs are just as unhealthy as the puppy mill dogs.  They are both going to have health issues and cost a fortune in vet bills.  Even though properly bred dogs also have a chance of big vet bills because of health problems, the backyard and puppy mill dogs are guaranteed health problems and huge vet bills.
> I know pets in general are not cheap, but look at Lady, Missy, and all the other puppy mill dogs that have grown up.  You guys pay way more in vet bills than anyone I know.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I agree with you! 

If we think people don't know enough about puppymills, well they know waaaaay less about "backyard" breeders. Most of the time when I tell people that I have a male and female Maltese, the first thing out of their mouths is, "are you going to breed them?" They totally expect that I am going to. Unfortunately, the easiest thing for me is just to say that they are "fixed" and end it at that.

I do agree with Lady's Mom that these backyard breeders give theirs a little bit better start in that they don't come with coccidia, kennel cough, etc. My Kallie is from a backyard breeder (a couple bred their two pet store dogs) and knock on wood, she has had not been to the vet yet in 2-1/2 years for any health issues. I realize that she is still young and problems are likely to occur. I had no idea about all of the potential health issues, etc. at that time....

She is definitely not a good representation of the breed......I think she may have some Bichon in her line because her bone structure is very sturdy and "thick", not at all like a Maltese, who are supposed to fine-boned. Her legs are longer, etc. However, she is the sweetest dog on the planet!!























Anyway, the problems with puppymills, backyard breeders and the like.. seem insurmountable to fix.....


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Well said, Jodi. You won't get any "crap" from me!

I certainly didn't mean to support back yard breeders. You are absolutely right that they are just as irresponsible as puppy millers. I was pointing out the financial difference - $500 as opposed to $1500 for basically the same quality dog, with the cheaper backyard bred dog at least having a better start in life by being home raised instead of raised in a cage.

It is definately a question of pay me now or pay me later. Much smarter to pay the money up front for the healthiest dog you can find, than pay for their poor health all their lives, like my Lady. The money is the small part. I can't even explain to someone who hasn't been through it the emotional toll it can take on you, loving these guys as we do and not knowing if they will live or die.

Sher, you bring up another good point. People who get puppy mill pups or puppies from backyard breeders may not even be getting a purebred Maltese (papers are faked all the time). Larger dogs, like Bichons, are often thrown into the mix to get more puppies with safer, less expensive deliveries since it's all about the money. I believe they think many of the Hollybelle Maltese seized were mixed with Westies.

My sister manages a vet office and she tells me all the time about the "funny looking" Maltese they see. 15 pounders with long legs, pointy noses, etc. and dispositions more like terriers than Maltese. I saw a weird one at my vet's last year. I had to ask if he was a Maltese and his mom said he was, so I kept my mouth shut! "Rags" was huge next to Lady ( and she's too big at 9 pounds). He had the strangest coat I've ever seen. It was kinky and his mom had him long so he had dreadlocks - really! It felt odd to the touch, too, like a Poodle coat. He also looked light beige instead of white next to Lady.


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## pico's parent (Apr 5, 2004)

You are right on target with the backyard breeding operations. Pico is a product of my sister-in-law's Kannoli and another private owner's Maltese. While they do have an all-Maltese pedigree and Kannoli was only bred once and has been since spayed, other backyard breeders are less careful and thoughtful about their breeding practices.

It does seem an insurmountable problem but we must not relax our stance against these practices. Educating the young is the most reliable way to ensure future eradication of puppymills and backyard breeding. Adults who do this will never be dissuaded from the income derived because they have already decided it is simply a business and these dogs are tools and a means to their greedy end.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

Shocking statistic in this article. I didn't realize that "backyard breeders" were responsible for 2/3 of purebred dogs! That makes them an even bigger problem than puppy mills!

Backyard Breeders

First of all, what is a 'backyard breeder'? They are small scale puppy mills. While they may keep their dogs in better condition and not have more than 2 or 3, they do not give any considerations to health, temperament or betterment of the breed. Only to turn a profit on their dogs. They also will sell to puppy brokers or pet stores. They have no education about the breed other than knowing what breed they have and that it is registered. Registration is no indication of health or quality, plus they can be falsified quite easily! Some of these people are actually quite nice and have good intentions. They think their dogs are wonderful and have no idea they may go blind or dysplastic in a few years. They don't consider their actions to play a role in pet overpopulation and don't have the capability to (or just won't) take their puppies back. Why are they such a danger? Because they produce 2/3 of all purebred dogs! Individually they may not have that many litters, but there are so many of them, they make a HUGE contribution to pet overpopulation. Please, do your research carefully before buying a puppy. Be able to distinguish between an ethical breeder and a backyard breeder.


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