# When does a breed become a breed?



## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

One of my very best customers and a good friend has fallen in love with Mi-ki's and she breeds them. She is trying to do things correctly by testing her sires and dams for genetic health issues and is constantly asking me questions about genetic health issues and tests, etc. She keeps her puppies until they are 12 weeks old but is considering keeping them a bit longer so she can bile acid test them prior to them going to their pet home after she read some material that I got from Mary H. She does a wonderful job of socializing her puppies. She does not work outside the home and so her whole day is centered around her dogs. She does not crate her dogs. They are family members and have full access to their house. From what I can tell, the Mi-Ki group is trying to do things correctly to become recognized by the AKC. I have been told they have a written standard and they have shows so they can produce 'champions' within their 'breed'. Now admittedly, my knowledge on this is simply what I'm hearing from my friend and I have done no personal research on this myself. They call themselves a 'rare' breed and will be featured on Dog Breed 101 on Animal Planet in the next several months. The thing that I see lacking in this group is that there seems to be no mentoring and I wonder if that would start to happen if they were recognized by the AKC. The questions she's asking me makes me want to put her in contact with some of the breeders I've grown to respect here on SM. So it got me thinking...this to me 'feels' different then the designer dogs. And didn't all breeds...or most breeds...have to become recognized by the AKC at some point other then those who are already recognized in their country of origin? Wasn't the Kyi-Leo a breed that originated in California back in the 50's by the accidental mating of a Maltese and a Lhasa? I think they were recognized by the AKC back in the 70's. So it just got me thinking about what is considered a byb and a designer dog. I really don't think my friend falls into that category but I'm curious as to other people's thoughts.


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## uniquelovdolce (Mar 10, 2010)

whats a mi-ki?


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## spookiesmom (Mar 28, 2010)

The MiKis are small like a Malt, furry, really cute! I'm not sure how this will work out for these dogs.

I can tell you the history of the Aussies. They were from the Basque region of Spain, used for herding. Taken to Australia by the Basque shepherds. No one bothered with " conformation", as long as they did their job well. Brought to the US in the early 1900s, to herd. Then, put in side shows to do tricks. Caught the attention of breeders, who started the long and bitter process for AKC "status". They were not admitted untill about1993/94. It is a very long process, can cause many hurt and hard feelings. My feeling is they should have been left alone, the breeders cause more harm than good. 

I truly hope the MiKis, the Cotons, and all the rest never get into AKC.


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## Cosy (Feb 9, 2006)

Here's the list of AKC recognized breeds for anyone who hasn't seen it.
American Kennel Club - Complete List of Breeds


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## edelweiss (Apr 23, 2010)

Interesting question Crystal.
I met a lady on a plane once w/a Mi-Ki---it was an adorable looking little dog I have to say. I had never seen one & came home & looked them up. 
The web-sites say Mi-Kis are PUREBRED and NOT a designer dog, BUT then go on to say:
"The Mi-Ki gets some of their heritage from the Maltese, Shih Tzu, Papillion, Japanese Chin and some believe Yorkshire Terrier."
I think becoming a breed w/in itself is a long procedure & am not sure what is involved. Didn't the AKC introduce 6 new breeds this year at Wesminister? 
I know the ones I looked up were "quiet dear" as the British are fond of saying, and have generally larger litters. They have a huge variance of colors---probably due to the "heritage."
Call me a snob but I would not call it a "purebred."


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

I saw some at a Rare Breed dog show about 10 years ago. The ones I saw were very tiny. Maybe 3-4 lb. adults, very fluffy, many colors and cute. Here is their breed registry website.

When does a mix finally become a breed........?? I agree most if not all of our AKC breeds where mixes to begin with. If I could have a Malt that wasn't all white and wasn't ridiculed as a "designer" dog, I probably would. I would want the personality of a Malt, the size, and the face. :blush:


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## Bailey&Me (Mar 8, 2010)

Very interesting question Crystal! I have often wondered this myself as I've read somewhere that there is an effort to get cockapoos recognized as a breed as well (???). Not sure how legit that is...they are most definitely a "designer" dog :blink: but one I've always been in love with as I grew up with a family friend's very precious cockapoo (although I dont support or advocate the breeding of designer dogs)

I'd be interested to read what others think.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

*Here is the information directly from AKC.org on how to become a part of their Foundation Stock Service. This is the first step in becoming a recognized "rare" breed which needs to be done prior to the AKC approving the breed in regular status. I did change the font to RED on one of the very important points which, imho, is what makes a breed a legitimate breed instead of designer dog. To me, one of the very important things in a dog being a true breed is that you need to (or can) breed 2 dogs of that breed together to produce the litter. For example, with a Morkie you would breed a Maltese and a Yorkie to produce a Morkie litter. Once you reach the point that you can breed a Morkie to another Morkie to produce a Morkie litter, and you no longer need to breed 2 individual breeds together, then it has become a unique breed, imho.*

*Foundation Stock Service® Program*

The American Kennel Club created the Foundation Stock Service® (FSS®) to answer the needs of today's rare breed fanciers. The Foundation Stock Service® is an optional record-keeping service for all purebred breeds not currently registrable with the American Kennel Club.
*Goals of the Foundation Stock Service®*

The AKC is committed to taking the necessary action to ensure the continuation of purebred dogs. In accord with this objective, the AKC created the FSS® record-keeping service to allow rare breed fanciers to continue their commitment to the improvement of their breed.
One of the most serious concerns for any breed is the integrity of its pedigree and ownership records. For many fanciers, the ultimate goal is full AKC recognition. There are several criteria that must be met in order to achieve this plateau. Often, the biggest hurdle is creating and maintaining accurate records.
With the FSS®, the AKC staff of experts will maintain the pedigree and ownership records in addition to a stud book. The AKC has more than 100 years of experience protecting the integrity of registries for purebred dogs.
Fanciers who record their dogs with the FSS® can rest assured that the AKC will maintain quality stud books for their breeds.
*The Benefits of Enrolling in FSS®*

The Foundation Stock Service® allows purebred rare breeds to continue to develop while providing them with the security of a reliable and reputable avenue to maintain their records.
Foundation Stock Service® is a requirement for fanciers of a breed who want to achieve full AKC recognition.
FSS® breeds may now compete in Companion Events and in Performance Events that AKC determines to be applicable. Breeds must have dogs with three-generation pedigrees recorded in the FSS®, a breed standard, and an active breed club in order to compete. Recording your dog in FSS® can help catapult your breed into AKC competition.
While the recording of a dog in FSS® does not guarantee eventual full AKC registration, it does provide the avenue to compete in the exciting world of Companion and Performance Events.
Eligibility for Performance Events is subject to approval by the Performance Events Department upon review of the historical function of the breed or involvement in like events.
*How Breeds Enter the FSS®*

The American Kennel Club considers requests to enter FSS® from breed clubs or individual fanciers of a breed. Those wishing to pursue recording with FSS® must: 

Fill out a questionnaire for new breeds. Email: [email protected] for questionnaire.

Provide a written breed history documenting the distinct breed over a period of many decades. This should include details on any foreign and/or domestic organizations that register the breed. The source of the historical information must also be provided.

Provide an official written breed standard, indicating the origin of that standard. If the standard differs from the official breed standard in the breed country of origin please specify those differences.

Provide photographs of the breed, including puppies and adults, as well as both dogs and bitches. If there are different accepted types in the breed, photographs of each type should be included and labeled as such.
The AKC only considers adding new breeds to the FSS® or its registry upon request. The breed must be recognized by an acceptable foreign or domestic registry.
*The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards*
*What is next? Guidelines For Registering a New Breed*

If the goal for your breed is AKC recognition please consider the action items below after your breed is in the FSS®. The recognition process begins with admission of the breed to the Miscellaneous Class. 

Form a strong national breed club and encourage fanciers nationwide to join and get involved. A national breed club with representative membership of about 100 active households is expected for a breed to be placed in the Miscellaneous Class. The amount of active households needed can vary depending on the number of dogs recorded in the FSS®.

Create a breed standard that conforms to the Guidelines for Writing Breed Standards. Final approval is made by the AKC Board at the time the breed is approved for full recognition.

Form some active committees such as a rescue committee or a health committee, put on shows, and publish a quarterly newsletter. A committed AKC liaison is also keeping AKC updated on the club's various activities provides documentation of the fanciers' dedication to full AKC recognition. *Current* officer and membership lists must be on file with the AKC.

Encourage other fanciers to record their dogs with FSS®. A minimum of 150-200 dogs with complete three-generation pedigrees, owned by many different individuals residing in various parts of the nation, must be recorded as part of the criteria for approval to move to the Miscellaneous Class. A club representing the breed must be in existence to request eligibility for the Miscellaneous Class. The more dogs you record with the FSS®, the more committed AKC believes the fanciers are to achieving full recognition. If the breed club has not submitted its breed registry for entry into FSS®, the club is required to do so when moving to the Miscellaneous Class. If more than one club exists, the selection of the Parent Club will occur prior to the breed being eligible for full recognition at which time the breed standard will be finalized.

A Parent Club has been selected to represent the breed.

A dog must be enrolled in the AKC FSS® with a three-generation pedigree to be eligible to be entered and compete in the Miscellaneous Class.

Stay in contact. The AKC moves forward with recognition of breeds whose fanciers want the breed to be recognized. The Parent Club must maintain a minimum of annual contact with the AKC providing updated membership lists, documentation of club business and activities. The breeders and exhibitors are to demonstrate ongoing interest and responsible breeding practices.

Normally breeds remain in the Miscellaneous Class one to three years. Advancement to full registration will be contingent on growth in enrollment of dogs in FSS and participation in AKC events. However breeds with 1,000 or more dogs enrolled in FSS® may be evaluated after six months in Miscellaneous, these breeds will remain in the Miscellaneous Class a minimum of 18 months. Breeds with less than 1,000 dogs will be evaluated at the end of each year in Miscellaneous When all criteria are met the information is presented to the AKC Board of Directors for approval to move to full AKC recognition and breed conformation competition.
Request for Regular status will be contingent upon the following:

The Breed Standard has been revised in accordance with the AKC Breed Standard Guidelines.
A minimum of one year has elapsed since entering the Miscellaneous Class unless the breed has over 1,000 three generation dogs when entering the Miscellaneous Class, then the club may request full recognition after six months.
The Parent Club has maintained contact with AKC Staff and documented the conducting of club business and activities.
Continuous enrollment of litters and dogs in the AKC Foundation Stock Service reflecting ongoing interest in the breed.


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## Lacie's Mom (Oct 11, 2006)

And, Crystal, btw, the Kyi-Leo is not now, nor has it ever been recognized by AKC, even in the Miscellaneous Breed Class. I do not believe that they are even interested in AKC recognition. The Kyi-Leo, however, is recognized by the American Rare Breed Association.

For those interested, here is a link to info on the Mi-Ki dog breed.

http://www.angelfire.com/nb/weewinsomes/mikihistory.html


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Lacie's Mom said:


> And, Crystal, btw, the Kyi-Leo is not now, nor has it ever been recognized by AKC, even in the Miscellaneous Breed Class. I do not believe that they are even interested in AKC recognition. The Kyi-Leo, however, is recognized by the American Rare Breed Association.
> 
> For those interested, here is a link to info on the Mi-Ki dog breed.
> 
> Mi-Ki Breed History



Thanks for letting me know Lynn. I had a book that said they had been recognized so I just took it that they were. I really hadn't done any research at all. I just find the whole thing a bit confusing. My understanding is Mi-Ki's are bred to other Mi-Ki's, not to 2 different breed dogs. But I don't know if they are recognized by the Rare Breed organization. Again, haven't had the time to really look into it. I'm just curious about the whole process.


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## MaryH (Mar 7, 2006)

It seems to me that most of the newly recognized AKC breeds are breeds that have been recognized for years in other countries and are breeds that have "bred true" for several generations. I know of only two breeds recently recognized by the AKC as having their roots in North America, the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever and the Boykin Spaniel. Both of these breeds' Parent Club websites have interesting information on the development of the breed. I don't know anything about Mi-kis. Are they breeding true (Mi-ki to Mi-ki) or are other breeds, i.e., Maltese, Yorkies, Chin, still being bred to to "fine tune" the breed? I think it goes without saying that all breeds evolved over time from some combination of other breeds but the critical aspect is any breed's ability to consistently reproduce itself when bred to another member of it's breed.


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## godiva goddess (Nov 19, 2007)

this is such an interesting question Crystal! I can contribute 0% to the discussion (LOL!!) but I am enjoying reading all the responses from our knowledgeable members!! 

Thanks for bringing this topic up, very intriguing!


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Here is the legit rare breed association in the U.S. Not on the breed list the other organizations that accept the breeds - you see FCI which is the European club a lot. 
Breeds By Name


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## CrystalAndZoe (Jul 11, 2006)

Well that's disappointing that Mi-ki's aren't recognized on the rare breed list. That's what has me a bit unsure about the Mi-Ki's is that they call themselves a 'rare breed' which is a bit misleading. I just wish they would say they are not a recognized breed yet. But I do know they are breeding Mi-Ki's to Mi-Ki's. My friend went to Spain to get her most recent male.


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## mss (Mar 1, 2006)

The ARBA site is confusing--I think (hope) they have been in the process of updating it. I find the Pekingese, but when I click on the link, I get the FCI standard for the poodle! Worst of all, I can't find the Maltese at all!


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## Maltsnme (Feb 7, 2009)

Crystal&Zoe said:


> Well that's disappointing that Mi-ki's aren't recognized on the rare breed list. That's what has me a bit unsure about the Mi-Ki's is that they call themselves a 'rare breed' which is a bit misleading. I just wish they would say they are not a recognized breed yet. But I do know they are breeding Mi-Ki's to Mi-Ki's. My friend went to Spain to get her most recent male.


 
Hi Crystal..

As MaryH pointed out, the "rare" breeds that are considered for AKC approval (or are on the list) are breeds of other countries/other breed registers that have been around a long time... many many years. The term "rare breed" is a legit term when used with these breeds from legitimate other registeries, but sadly, the term is also often used, when referring to breeds that have been created more recently (which is what a Mi-Ki is) to get people interested in them. It is human nature to want what is "rare". 

So why do people "mix" breeds.. to create something new (ie: "rare" that they can make LOTS of money on) or create a breed with a trait that you can't find in AKC registered breeds. So, why would someone mix a group of toy breeds together to make something new? What drives people to do this? Oftentimes, they are trying to make a "better" genetic mix and advertise them as such. But that makes no sense because you are breeding two dogs and the genes you get are from THOSE two dogs.. if they are healthy, yes, then you can possibly get healthy dogs (if there are no recessives for health issues in those two parents)..but that is no different than breeding two healthy purebred dogs together, so the claim that mixed breed dogs are "healthier" is not sound. 

Mixing of breeds has been done for years.. look at the PekaPoo or CockaPoo.. these two mixes have been around for 50+ years. The Labradoodle.. started out from a man in Australia that bred dogs for service dogs. He had a client that needed a specific list of requirements.. had severe alleries (if I remember correctly) he tried several of the registered breeds, Labradors, GSD and St. Poodles but for several years, couldn't get one to work for her. So he had a thought.. mix two breeds. He knew that no one would want to take a mix breed (at that time) and train it..(foster homes for service dogs) so he made up a name of a very 'rare" breed and all of a sudden everyone wanted to raise the three mix breed puppies... hence, the birth of the Labradoodle. He has a lot of regrets now that he has seen where this all led. (the unscrupulous breeding of purebred dogs to equal hybrids or hybreds  

In saying that, the strain of Labradoodles he created are becoming very pure. (and maybe other hybrids such as the Mi-Ki are as well) There are generations of these dogs that have breed type ingrained being bred now, not just taking a Labrador and breeding it with a Poodle as many people do, just to make something "rare". The breeders that are loyal to these lines are doing all that a reputable breeder will do and I have to admit, I'm more impressed by some of them than I am "breeders" of AKC registered dogs. Breeding healthy, dogs that fit in the standard and doing health screen tests puts them there. (one breeder of Australian Labradoodles that I know of does CERF, OFA *and* PennHIP, and cardiac testing.) Many of these breeders of these lines, do not want to become AKC acknowledged. They are of course, afraid of what that will do to the "breed". I think it has already been done.. but that is just from what I see.. tons of unscrupulous people trying to make a buck with a "rare" beed. (I am not saying they all do this, as started above).

You also see the "Imperial" Shih Tzu and the "Pocket" Beagles. Both claim that they are from "ancient" lines that go way back. Granted, hundreds of years ago, these two may have existed but they became non existant and so the "Imperial" and the "Pocket" are nothing more than people breeding "small sized" members of AKC breeds to make a gene pool of them. I'm not giving my opinion in it.. but it is what it is, making something "rare" with claims to back it up, so they can make money for having something that everyone wants. 

Working at a vet clinic, I see more hybrids that I do registered puppies coming in, anymore, especially in toy breeds. Do I think these mixes will become AKC registered.. no. Do I think it is a fad that will fade out.. I sure hope so, not because I'm a purebred snob, but because people that breed these dogs, don't care about health or "bettering" the next generation. (ie: Maltipoos, Yorkipoos, etc). I'm not sure about the Mi-Kis and the Australian Labradoodles (for example)... this is a new door opening, as I don't think breeding combinations of AKC breeds to make a pure gene pool has been worked at so hard, as these types of breeders are doing. 

So, time will tell, I guess, in the meantime... people pay an awful lot of money for a mixed breed dog, just to have something that is either "rare" or what the current trend is. JMO and experiences.


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## Katkoota (Feb 18, 2006)

Interesting topic 

Kat


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