# Can food be too high in protein?



## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

I read many articles saying protein content can be too high if over a certain percentage and, on the contrary, many that say a high protein diet is a natural diet, so I was just wondering what you guys think. :huh: 

Have any of you tried a high protein/low carb diet (Orijen, EVO, Wellness, Instinct etc.), and if so, did you have good or bad results? 

I am wondering because I am looking into feeding Roxy grain free foods because the guy at the pet supply shop said that small dogs can handle about any level of protein and large dogs should wait until they are about 18 months old.

My personal thoughts on this topic is that it depends on the breed of dog and that certain dog, however in general, I think Malts can handle high protein diets.

Thanks :wub:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Most high protein diets are high in fat. High fat diets are not well tolerated by many dogs and can lead to overweight dogs. High protein/high fat no grain diets, IMO, are appropriate for high activity dogs (ie border collies, hunting dogs). 

On another note, I know Quincy had fat deposits in his eyes after being on Evo. I have heard a few other veterinarians reporting the same findings. 

Dogs are omnivores...and most of our house pets are not nearly as active as their wild ancestors AND they have not eaten the same diet as their wild ancestors so do not have identical digestive systems. They're not wolves.


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## Ladysmom (Oct 19, 2004)

QUOTE (roxybaby22 @ Apr 22 2009, 03:48 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766286


> I read many articles saying protein content can be too high if over a certain percentage and, on the contrary, many that say a high protein diet is a natural diet, so I was just wondering what you guys think. :huh:
> 
> Have any of you tried a high protein/low carb diet (Orijen, EVO, Wellness, Instinct etc.), and if so, did you have good or bad results?
> 
> ...


We have an ongoing dialog about this on another forum I belong to. You are going to get some passionate answers!

From what I have read, high protein diets may not be appropriate for toy breed dogs who have a quieter lifestyle than working dogs.

Maltese are one of the breeds prone to liver shunts and MVD, so too much protein may not be appropriate for that reason.

I have also heard of a few cases of Maltese and Yorkies developing high lipids/cholesterol from some of the grain free diets because they are so high in fat.


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## drclee (Jul 16, 2008)

I put Jack & Jill on Nature's Variety Instinct about 7-8 months ago, when they were around 7 months old. But soon after, I got nervous about the high protein, so now I mix a little Prairie in with the Instinct. I hear from most people that high protein is not bad, but I still think that's why J & J got to be so big (not that I care - I love them just the way they are)! Also, I like mixing the two so they get some flavor variety.


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## LittleDogLVR (Oct 24, 2007)

My Lizzie is on Instinc Rabbit right now, before this she was also on grain free but was having poop issues.
Vet thought she was developing IBD and suggested we switch to a Rabbit protein source.
We are well into our second bag with no more issues, her poop is perfect ! And Codie likes it as well.

It is more protein than what she was on,I think its around 35%.....
They are both eating less, just slightly over a 1/4 cup a day. I put in 1/4 in each bowl in the morning and then
add 1/4 more in one in the evening and the may or may not finish it.


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

QUOTE (JMM @ Apr 22 2009, 03:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=766295


> Most high protein diets are high in fat. High fat diets are not well tolerated by many dogs and can lead to overweight dogs. High protein/high fat no grain diets, IMO, are appropriate for high activity dogs (ie border collies, hunting dogs).
> 
> On another note, I know Quincy had fat deposits in his eyes after being on Evo. I have heard a few other veterinarians reporting the same findings.
> 
> Dogs are omnivores...and most of our house pets are not nearly as active as their wild ancestors AND they have not eaten the same diet as their wild ancestors so do not have identical digestive systems. They're not wolves.[/B]


Very good point!  I know dogs are not wolves, that is why I refuse to feed the raw diet because of all the risks, however the high protein diets do contain vegetables because they do recognize that dogs are omnivores but they also recognize the roots of domesticated dogs. 

You are very helpful and informative. Can I ask you what protein range you think Malts in particular should eat?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

Depends on the dog. My super-active agility dog would probably be just fine on 42% protein. Soda, who tends to get chunky, I keep around 20-22% and relatively low fat. In general, I look for foods under 26% for most of my dogs. Remember, lower protein _usually_ coincides with lower fat content. You also have to consider the fiber content and the portion of the diet that is grain. Each dog is different and protein % alone is not an answer to the right food. 

The other thing to consider is you feed much less of most high protein/fat diets than you do of lower protein. Soda gets just under 1/2 cup per day...cut it back further and he'd be starving. So a food that says he should only eat 1/4 cup per day is probably not going to satisfy him.


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## vjw (Dec 20, 2006)

There's some good articles on nutritional requirements at peteducation.com. Here's a link to an article on protein:

Protein Requirements for Good Nutrition






Joy


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

QUOTE (vjw @ Apr 24 2009, 08:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=767409


> There's some good articles on nutritional requirements at peteducation.com. Here's a link to an article on protein:
> 
> Protein Requirements for Good Nutrition
> 
> ...


Wow! :biggrin: Thanks, that is excellent information! Roxy doesn't have kidney problems, so no need to worry, however, I might stick with a mid-range protein level (if I chicken out on buying Orijen).  :ThankYou:


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## Desiree (May 29, 2007)

I did a lot of research before deciding what I wanted to feed Eros, and finally ended up going with Orijen 6 fresh fish as his main kibble. The vet thought it would be too high protein, but they also don't think twice to recommend Science Diet ick! He also had never heard of Orijen before. I think the high protein diet actually works well for Eros because he only really likes to eat his food once a day and even then it's only 1/2 a cup. He's been on Orijen for a little over a year and loves it. He's very healthy and has not gained weight from it (he's 5 lbs). He may not be a working dog, but he does tend to wear himself out running around the house and trying to get us to play "tag" with him. So I think in his case at least it's working out very well, and I see no need to change his food. Sometimes I give him Innova- Evo red meat small bites to change things up a bit, and Merrick's Before Grain canned food. He likes all three, but Orijen is his favorite. Every dog is different, so I think the best thing to do is try it and observe the changes in your dog.

<div align='center'>Desiree & Eros


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## tygrr_lily (Aug 22, 2007)

QUOTE (Desiree @ May 17 2009, 01:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=777555


> I did a lot of research before deciding what I wanted to feed Eros, and finally ended up going with Orijen 6 fresh fish as his main kibble. The vet thought it would be too high protein, but they also don't think twice to recommend Science Diet ick! He also had never heard of Orijen before. I think the high protein diet actually works well for Eros because he only really likes to eat his food once a day and even then it's only 1/2 a cup. He's been on Orijen for a little over a year and loves it. He's very healthy and has not gained weight from it (he's 5 lbs). He may not be a working dog, but he does tend to wear himself out running around the house and trying to get us to play "tag" with him. So I think in his case at least it's working out very well, and I see no need to change his food. Sometimes I give him Innova- Evo red meat small bites to change things up a bit, and Merrick's Before Grain canned food. He likes all three, but Orijen is his favorite. Every dog is different, so I think the best thing to do is try it and observe the changes in your dog.
> 
> <div align='center'>Desiree & Eros


[/B][/QUOTE]

i have paddy on the same food - the origin fresh fish. he's been on origin for about 8 months now and he loves it. i really like the ingredients in it and it's one of the most highly rated foods. i used to feed canidae, but paddy never seemed to be that enthusiastic about eating it. he's not a big eater either - he only eats about 1/4 cup of dry a day if even that (i mix in some wet with it). he also tends to graze on it all day instead of eating it all at once. i took him to the vet on friday and he's very healthy. the vet said he actually wouldn't mind if paddy gained some weight.. he's 5.5 lbs and has actually lost maybe .2 lbs since being on it haha.

definitely do your research and see what you feel comfortable with!


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## roxybaby22 (Feb 25, 2009)

QUOTE (tygrr_lily @ May 17 2009, 02:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=777565


> QUOTE (Desiree @ May 17 2009, 01:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=777555





> I did a lot of research before deciding what I wanted to feed Eros, and finally ended up going with Orijen 6 fresh fish as his main kibble. The vet thought it would be too high protein, but they also don't think twice to recommend Science Diet ick! He also had never heard of Orijen before. I think the high protein diet actually works well for Eros because he only really likes to eat his food once a day and even then it's only 1/2 a cup. He's been on Orijen for a little over a year and loves it. He's very healthy and has not gained weight from it (he's 5 lbs). He may not be a working dog, but he does tend to wear himself out running around the house and trying to get us to play "tag" with him. So I think in his case at least it's working out very well, and I see no need to change his food. Sometimes I give him Innova- Evo red meat small bites to change things up a bit, and Merrick's Before Grain canned food. He likes all three, but Orijen is his favorite. Every dog is different, so I think the best thing to do is try it and observe the changes in your dog.
> 
> <div align='center'>Desiree & Eros


[/B][/QUOTE]

i have paddy on the same food - the origin fresh fish. he's been on origin for about 8 months now and he loves it. i really like the ingredients in it and it's one of the most highly rated foods. i used to feed canidae, but paddy never seemed to be that enthusiastic about eating it. he's not a big eater either - he only eats about 1/4 cup of dry a day if even that (i mix in some wet with it). he also tends to graze on it all day instead of eating it all at once. i took him to the vet on friday and he's very healthy. the vet said he actually wouldn't mind if paddy gained some weight.. he's 5.5 lbs and has actually lost maybe .2 lbs since being on it haha.

definitely do your research and see what you feel comfortable with!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks you two!!! I decided to try the Orijen and Roxy loves it and does much better on it than Innova. She has smaller, firmer stool and dances everytime I time I get ready to feed her.  She is definitely not a working dog and seems to be doing really well (weight-wise) with it. She is on Orijen puppy, but I want to try the 6 fresh fish. Is it okay for puppies?


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## Desiree (May 29, 2007)

QUOTE (roxybaby22 @ May 17 2009, 01:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=777592


> QUOTE (tygrr_lily @ May 17 2009, 02:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=777565





> QUOTE (Desiree @ May 17 2009, 01:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=777555





> I did a lot of research before deciding what I wanted to feed Eros, and finally ended up going with Orijen 6 fresh fish as his main kibble. The vet thought it would be too high protein, but they also don't think twice to recommend Science Diet ick! He also had never heard of Orijen before. I think the high protein diet actually works well for Eros because he only really likes to eat his food once a day and even then it's only 1/2 a cup. He's been on Orijen for a little over a year and loves it. He's very healthy and has not gained weight from it (he's 5 lbs). He may not be a working dog, but he does tend to wear himself out running around the house and trying to get us to play "tag" with him. So I think in his case at least it's working out very well, and I see no need to change his food. Sometimes I give him Innova- Evo red meat small bites to change things up a bit, and Merrick's Before Grain canned food. He likes all three, but Orijen is his favorite. Every dog is different, so I think the best thing to do is try it and observe the changes in your dog.
> 
> <div align='center'>Desiree & Eros


[/B][/QUOTE]

i have paddy on the same food - the origin fresh fish. he's been on origin for about 8 months now and he loves it. i really like the ingredients in it and it's one of the most highly rated foods. i used to feed canidae, but paddy never seemed to be that enthusiastic about eating it. he's not a big eater either - he only eats about 1/4 cup of dry a day if even that (i mix in some wet with it). he also tends to graze on it all day instead of eating it all at once. i took him to the vet on friday and he's very healthy. the vet said he actually wouldn't mind if paddy gained some weight.. he's 5.5 lbs and has actually lost maybe .2 lbs since being on it haha.

definitely do your research and see what you feel comfortable with!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks you two!!! I decided to try the Orijen and Roxy loves it and does much better on it than Innova. She has smaller, firmer stool and dances everytime I time I get ready to feed her.  She is definitely not a working dog and seems to be doing really well (weight-wise) with it. She is on Orijen puppy, but I want to try the 6 fresh fish. Is it okay for puppies?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I did a quick little search on your question about the fish formula being ok for puppies, and I found a post about someone that had the exact same question for his lab pup. You can read about it Here to see what everyone told him when he asked. Good luck 
<div align='center'>
Desiree & Eros


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## dr.jaimie (Mar 23, 2004)

ive seen high protein diets do harm to many different dogs...i had a shepheard mix about a yr ago have high kidney values...changed her diet and they slowly went back down to normal. its not natural for a dog to eat high protein. like JMM said they are omnivores and need a balance of carbs and protein.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

Isn't most canned food low in protein? So would that be a better alternative?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 18 2009, 07:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778157


> Isn't most canned food low in protein? So would that be a better alternative?[/B]


The % is lower than dry, but that does not account for the water content so the % protein in wet vs. dry is not comparable unless you adjust for the water. .


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ May 18 2009, 08:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778186


> QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 18 2009, 07:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778157





> Isn't most canned food low in protein? So would that be a better alternative?[/B]


The % is lower than dry, but that does not account for the water content so the % protein in wet vs. dry is not comparable unless you adjust for the water. .
[/B][/QUOTE]
Then how do you get an accurate estimate? :huh:


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 18 2009, 10:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778221


> QUOTE (JMM @ May 18 2009, 08:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778186





> QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 18 2009, 07:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778157





> Isn't most canned food low in protein? So would that be a better alternative?[/B]


The % is lower than dry, but that does not account for the water content so the % protein in wet vs. dry is not comparable unless you adjust for the water. .
[/B][/QUOTE]
Then how do you get an accurate estimate? :huh:
[/B][/QUOTE]

Dry matter protein content = (protein %/dry matter %)x100
The protein % is what you find on the can. the Dry matter % is 100-moisture content.


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ May 19 2009, 08:47 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778294


> QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 18 2009, 10:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778221





> QUOTE (JMM @ May 18 2009, 08:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778186





> QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 18 2009, 07:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778157





> Isn't most canned food low in protein? So would that be a better alternative?[/B]


The % is lower than dry, but that does not account for the water content so the % protein in wet vs. dry is not comparable unless you adjust for the water. .
[/B][/QUOTE]
Then how do you get an accurate estimate? :huh:
[/B][/QUOTE]

Dry matter protein content = (protein %/dry matter %)x100
The protein % is what you find on the can. the Dry matter % is 100-moisture content.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you so much! I am going to print that off!


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

Okay, it's late and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, am I understanding correctly that the formula provided is for canned food only?

So going with that, here is a photo off the Merrick site. I tried the formula JMM provided. Did I do it correctly?










(9/19) x 100=47.368% protein in that particular food

Thanks!


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

Because I am a dork and apparently I having nothing better to do ( :brownbag: ), I looked up a bunch of canned/wet dog foods using JMM's formula. 

Here are the results that I came up with:
Evangers 
Cooked Chicken Gold--50% protein
All Fresh Vegetarian Dinner--29% protein
100% Chicken--45% protein

Ziwipeak
Venison & Fish--40% protein

Wysong
Maintanice--28% protein

Wellness
Chicken & Sweet Potato--36% protein

Timberwolf
Lamb & Chicken Liver Formula--55% protein

Nature's Variety
Instinct--36% protein

Halo
Spot's Stew--29% protein


I haven't looked at dry food yet and this is just my understanding using the formula provided by JMM. You may want to double check my figures. :smstarz: Maybe later today, I will look into dry. I am really disappointed that nothing I found was lower than 28%. I even tried Mighty Dog and they were high too. I was going to calculate Alpo, but they don't list the ingredients on their site. Gee, I wonder why?


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## jmm (Nov 23, 2004)

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-bet...y-matter-basis/


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

QUOTE (JMM @ May 20 2009, 07:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=778912


> http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-bet...y-matter-basis/[/B]


Thank you very much! I find this very interesting.


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## tamizami (May 1, 2007)

To me, the scariest numbers are the fat content! I occassionally add a little Instinct Rabbit canned and its got 7% fat, which sounds innocent enough until you do the conversion to dry matter and its a whopping 28%!!!!!!! :shocked:


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

QUOTE (tamizami @ May 20 2009, 10:43 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=779034


> To me, the scariest numbers are the fat content! I occassionally add a little Instinct Rabbit canned and its got 7% fat, which sounds innocent enough until you do the conversion to dry matter and its a whopping 28%!!!!!!! :shocked:[/B]


I am finding this whole thing very interesting. Now, it seems, there isn't a decent food out there! Maybe I should just give up and go to bed! :hiding:


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

Yeah, I'm beating that dead horse! LOL :beating a dead horse: However, I find this subject fascinating.

I was doing a bit more research on canned foods and found Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Vegetarian Canned Formula For Dogs to have only 23% protein and 14% fat. This is the lowest I have found. However, I don't know if this formula is out on the market yet.

With all this said, let me throw this out there to anyone who is actually reading this thread since I seemed to have killed it. :tumbleweed: 

It seems to me that most of us feed our Malts higher quality foods and none of the foods I have looked at have been low in protein (I am only talking canned right now). With that said, no one's dogs seem to be effected, so is there really a need for concern? 

Just something to chew on. I'll be back later to keep talking to myself!


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## yorkieville (May 9, 2005)

QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 21 2009, 01:03 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=779076


> Yeah, I'm beating that dead horse! LOL :beating a dead horse: However, I find this subject fascinating.
> 
> I was doing a bit more research on canned foods and found Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Vegetarian Canned Formula For Dogs to have only 23% protein and 14% fat. This is the lowest I have found. However, I don't know if this formula is out on the market yet.
> 
> ...


Actually, you haven't been talking to yourself. I have been following the thread, and I am interested in your analysis. But I haven't been able to reply, because I get up at 5:30 for morning mass, then coffee with my group, came home, bathed one of my girls, now have to bathe the other, make a pie, and get dressed for an Awards Night.

It's interesting. Even with the higher protein and fat content, my Sydney, who has a tendency to gain, maintains a normal weight on Evangers Cooked Chicken/Gold, with some vegetables mixed in it.

However, when I feed my girls a kibble with a protein of say, 28% and fat of 18%, Sydney gains very quickly, and both my girls tinkle all day long.

I 'think' it has to do with the type of protein.

What do you think?

Sheila


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

Yep, I am back! :beating a dead horse: :beating a dead horse: :beating a dead horse: 

Today, I took a look at dry dog foods (I tried to stick with chicken and the brands I had looked at before) and here is what I found...

46% Protein
EVO Small Bites
Nature's Variety Chicken Meal Formula
Orijen Adult

31% Protein
Halo Wholesome Chicken

29% ProteinCastor & Pullux Organix Adult
Evanger's Chicken with Browin Rice

28% Protein
Pinnacle Chicken & Oats
HealthWise Chicken Meal & Oatmeal
Evolve Mainence Formula with Chicken

27% Protein
Fromm's Chicken A La Veg
Wysong Synorgon
Innova Adult Dry Dog Food

26% Protein
Artemis Fresh Mix
Merrick Grammy's Pot Pie
AvoDerm Chicken Meal & Brown Rice

24% Protein
Natural Balance Organic Formula
TimberWolf Black Forest Venison & Lamb
Wellness Chicken Recipe

23%
California Natural's Chicken Meal & Rice

22% Protein
Karma Organic

20% Protein
Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula

So Natural Balance being the lowest in protein, I am assuming is because there is no meat in the food. 

After having looked at all this, I keep going back to my original conclusion that we are all pretty much feeding our Malts food that is on list list and most of our dogs are not sickly. Sooooo...is there any truth or validity to this? I don't know.

Oh, on a side note, I have a list of obscure dog foods and websites for the food and I looked them up as well. They all ranged somewhere in the 22-31% protein range as well.

I hope this helps someone!


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## Desiree (May 29, 2007)

QUOTE (Tobys Mom @ May 22 2009, 01:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=779568


> Yep, I am back! :beating a dead horse: :beating a dead horse: :beating a dead horse:
> 
> Today, I took a look at dry dog foods (I tried to stick with chicken and the brands I had looked at before) and here is what I found...
> 
> ...


That is the never-ending debate. I do know, however, that high protein is not appropriate for dogs that have kidney problems or liver shunts as it tends to make the situation worse.

<div align='center'>Desiree & Eros


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## Toby's Mom (May 7, 2004)

QUOTE (Desiree @ May 26 2009, 02:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=781286


> That is the never-ending debate. I do know, however, that high protein is not appropriate for dogs that have kidney problems or liver shunts as it tends to make the situation worse.
> 
> <div align='center'>Desiree & Eros


[/B][/QUOTE]
I would be interested in knowing what brand of food people feed their Malts with kidney or liver problems and apply this formula. My guess, is that it might come out in the mid-to high 20% range.


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## Furbaby's Mommie (Jul 10, 2004)

Shoni is an MVD dog, high bile acids, but has always had normal liver enzymes, like ALT. He gets a variety of things to eat, like a little banana, cheerios, yogurt, and I add in a different canned food every couple of weeks---but his regular standard every day is *Karma dry* only 1/4 c., and about 1/4 c. of* California Natural Lamb & Rice* canned. It happens to be the only 2 things he will eat consistently. On both dry and canned I add 1/4 tsp. of Missing Link Plus, and a probiotic. He gets fed in the morning and at night, but almost always eats only once a day, and that is late before bed. (It's like "O.K., if I have to!" just before turning in.)  

Even eating as little as he does, now that he is almost 2 he is a little fleshy. Padded ribs.  I say he is a 6 lb. dog who weighs almost 7 lb.


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