# Noses?



## violet lace

Hi, I see cute little maltese with flatter noses. My little one has a longer nose. I'm wondering what the standard is? 
Thanks for the info -


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## Ladysmom

The Maltese standard calls for the muzzle to be "of medium length, fine and tapered but not snipy."

http://www.americanmaltese.org/ama_akc_breed_standard.htm

You may be referring to what we call a "baby doll" face that has is a shorter muzzle and is a very popular look. There is a test to see if your Malt has one by the number of fingers you could get along the muzzle. Anyone remember exactly what it was?


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## Tina

The standard for the shorter nose is a thumb width from the stop to the end of the nose. But the standard calls for what Marj posted. Of course it depends on how big your thumb is. For the traditional nose, it is 2 finger widths from the stop to the end of the nose. 
Tina


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## giselle79

Is it true that to get the baby doll face some breeders make maltese and shitzu and then use a mixed parent with a purebred parent so the puppy is 1/4 shitzu and 3/4 maltese? It's just something I've heard a few times. On the other hand, how to get the measure of the muzzle in cm, because the AKC standard sounds kind of funny to my interpretation and my fingers are really thin so I cannot get a good idea.


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## Cosy

> Is it true that to get the baby doll face some breeders make maltese and shitzu and then use a mixed parent with a purebred parent so the puppy is 1/4 shitzu and 3/4 maltese? It's just something I've heard a few times. On the other hand, how to get the measure of the muzzle in cm, because the AKC standard sounds kind of funny to my interpretation and my fingers are really thin so I cannot get a good idea. [/B]



LOL, well that sounds like a nice recipe but, no, that isn't how they get the smaller muzzles. In fact, you see the smaller muzzles on many maltese these days due to a wonderful little dog out of Marcris maltese named Risque Business (multi champion and ROM). His father was Marshmallow and he too had a darling little face. The faces on these maltese are not flat as you would see more often in shih tzus and brussels griffons, but rather just a shorter muzzle..not pushed in...not broad. The maltese standard calls for a "Moderate" stop, which is more defined than in many dogs (including the yorkie). It's more of a defined angle and helps lend the appearance of a shorter muzzle. Because the hair is so thick by adulthood on the muzzle it can give an even shorter look to the nose which often times takes on the nicknames of smooshy or doll faced. With this look also comes the wider set eyes...but not too wide set. Many breeders are thrilled to have this look in their line and that is why you will see Marcris in so many lines these days. He surely did leave a darling legacy and I know Joyce Watkins is very proud.


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## coco

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> Is it true that to get the baby doll face some breeders make maltese and shitzu and then use a mixed parent with a purebred parent so the puppy is 1/4 shitzu and 3/4 maltese? It's just something I've heard a few times. On the other hand, how to get the measure of the muzzle in cm, because the AKC standard sounds kind of funny to my interpretation and my fingers are really thin so I cannot get a good idea. [/B]
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> LOL, well that sounds like a nice recipe but, no, that isn't how they get the smaller muzzles. In fact, you see the smaller muzzles on many maltese these days due to a wonderful little dog out of Marcris maltese named Risque Business (multi champion and ROM). His father was Marshmallow and he too had a darling little face. The faces on these maltese are not flat as you would see more often in shih tzus and brussels griffons, but rather just a shorter muzzle..not pushed in...not broad. The maltese standard calls for a "Moderate" stop, which is more defined than in many dogs (including the yorkie). It's more of a defined angle and helps lend the appearance of a shorter muzzle. Because the hair is so thick by adulthood on the muzzle it can give an even shorter look to the nose which often times takes on the nicknames of smooshy or doll faced. With this look also comes the wider set eyes...but not too wide set. Many breeders are thrilled to have this look in their line and that is why you will see Marcris in so many lines these days. He surely did leave a darling legacy and I know Joyce Watkins is very proud.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Wow! Brit, thanks for the great explanation! I love the look. :wub:


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## I found nemo

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> Is it true that to get the baby doll face some breeders make maltese and shitzu and then use a mixed parent with a purebred parent so the puppy is 1/4 shitzu and 3/4 maltese? It's just something I've heard a few times. On the other hand, how to get the measure of the muzzle in cm, because the AKC standard sounds kind of funny to my interpretation and my fingers are really thin so I cannot get a good idea. [/B]
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> Click to expand...
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> LOL, well that sounds like a nice recipe but, no, that isn't how they get the smaller muzzles. In fact, you see the smaller muzzles on many maltese these days due to a wonderful little dog out of Marcris maltese named Risque Business (multi champion and ROM). His father was Marshmallow and he too had a darling little face. The faces on these maltese are not flat as you would see more often in shih tzus and brussels griffons, but rather just a shorter muzzle..not pushed in...not broad. The maltese standard calls for a "Moderate" stop, which is more defined than in many dogs (including the yorkie). It's more of a defined angle and helps lend the appearance of a shorter muzzle. Because the hair is so thick by adulthood on the muzzle it can give an even shorter look to the nose which often times takes on the nicknames of smooshy or doll faced. With this look also comes the wider set eyes...but not too wide set. Many breeders are thrilled to have this look in their line and that is why you will see Marcris in so many lines these days. He surely did leave a darling legacy and I know Joyce Watkins is very proud.
> [/B]
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> Click to expand...
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> Wow! Brit, thanks for the great explanation! I love the look. :wub:
> [/B]
Click to expand...

and might I add, I love Coco's nose , she is a little doll.. :wub:


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## MissMelanie

I look at Wookie's face and just can't believe I was so blessed to have him. I LOVE Maltese in general but I am head over heels in love with Wookie. Bonnie told me that the "doll baby face" is two fingers between the eyes and one finger from stop to nose. IF I worded that correctly. 

enJOY!
Melanie


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## nikkivong

question: where exactly is the "stop to the nose"?


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## coco

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> QUOTE(giselle79 @ Aug 10 2007, 07:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=419188
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> <div class='quotemain'>Is it true that to get the baby doll face some breeders make maltese and shitzu and then use a mixed parent with a purebred parent so the puppy is 1/4 shitzu and 3/4 maltese? It's just something I've heard a few times. On the other hand, how to get the measure of the muzzle in cm, because the AKC standard sounds kind of funny to my interpretation and my fingers are really thin so I cannot get a good idea. [/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
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> LOL, well that sounds like a nice recipe but, no, that isn't how they get the smaller muzzles. In fact, you see the smaller muzzles on many maltese these days due to a wonderful little dog out of Marcris maltese named Risque Business (multi champion and ROM). His father was Marshmallow and he too had a darling little face. The faces on these maltese are not flat as you would see more often in shih tzus and brussels griffons, but rather just a shorter muzzle..not pushed in...not broad. The maltese standard calls for a "Moderate" stop, which is more defined than in many dogs (including the yorkie). It's more of a defined angle and helps lend the appearance of a shorter muzzle. Because the hair is so thick by adulthood on the muzzle it can give an even shorter look to the nose which often times takes on the nicknames of smooshy or doll faced. With this look also comes the wider set eyes...but not too wide set. Many breeders are thrilled to have this look in their line and that is why you will see Marcris in so many lines these days. He surely did leave a darling legacy and I know Joyce Watkins is very proud.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Wow! Brit, thanks for the great explanation! I love the look. :wub:
[/B][/QUOTE]
and might I add, I love Coco's nose , she is a little doll.. :wub:
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you very much. I look at Coco and feel so blessed to have found her. Not only do I love her little face, her personality is the sweetest. You have a darling baby yourself!


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## Cosy

> question: where exactly is the "stop to the nose"?[/B]



The stop is at the beginning of the muzzle where the forehead is.  It's where the muzzle and forehead meet.


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## KandiMaltese

Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps! 

Andrea


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## coco

> Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]


To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.


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## Ladysmom

I think that's one of the great things about all the top breeders, each has her (or his) own signature look. I am by no means an expert, but I am getting pretty good at spotting a Ta-Jon Maltese, one from Chalet or one of Bonnie Palmer's precious angels. 

Which look appeals to you is a very subjective thing, but I don't think anyone would argue that they are all beautiful.


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## MissMelanie

> question: where exactly is the "stop to the nose"?[/B]


The "Stop" is right where their nose or muzzle starts on their face. Like if it was a Cap L right at the bend from the l to the _

Hope this helped you,
Melanie


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## Cosy

> I think that's one of the great things about all the top breeders, each has her (or his) own signature look. I am by no means an expert, but I am getting pretty good at spotting a Ta-Jon Maltese, one from Chalet or one of Bonnie Palmer's precious angels.
> 
> Which look appeals to you is a very subjective thing, but I don't think anyone would argue that they are all beautiful. [/B]



That's right, Marj. However, those liines you mentioned all have the Marcris Risque in some if not all of their dogs now. Chrisman has it too as well as Divine. So many! The look will vary a little depending on what they blended with the Marcris line. It sure made them all pretty!


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## Ladysmom

That's why I found _The Complete Maltese _ so fascinating. It is so interesting to see how the breed has evolved over the years and the influence of the different breeders on the look we see in the show ring today.

I met a woman last year who had one of Bonnie's dogs and a Hollybelle (ten years ago before the trouble). The difference between the two in looks was amazing. Hollybelle was the Villa Malta line, wasn't it?


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## Cosy

> That's why I found _The Complete Maltese _so fascinating. It is so interesting to see how the breed has evolved over the years and the influence of the different breeders on the look we see in the show ring today.
> 
> I met a woman last year who had one of Bonnie's dogs and a Hollybelle (ten years ago before the trouble). The difference between the two in looks was amazing. Hollybelle was the Villa Malta line, wasn't it?[/B]



Yes, Marge Rozik was Villa Malta. When she retired I believe she split up her dogs to three different breeders. Jenny Siliski was one. Don't get me wrong. There were pretty maltese before Risque but just not as many pretty pretty heads. Of course, we don't know what all was done to Jenny's line over the years. I would not want to use her as a comparison to any line. I know a gal who got a maltese from her and that maltese is just darling. Yes, it was before it all unraveled but not before the AKC papers were not valid.
By the way, I also agree The Complete Maltese by Nicholas Cutillo is my all time favorite book on maltese. It just hasn't been beat so far. It's a wonderful read for anyone with a passion for maltese.


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## Ladysmom

I know this woman showed her Hollybelle female as a puppy, but when her adult coat came in it was too cottony so that ended her career quickly. This would have been about ten years ago so there must not have been a problem with her papers, at least not then.

I don't think she ever showed her female from Bonnie.


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## Tina

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=419643
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> Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Not to change the subject, but to become the "Top Breeder" for the year for the AMA. The person has the most dogs that they have finished or had dogs that were finished for them in one year. Basically it means they are doing a lot of breeding to get that many dogs out at the right age to get them in the ring and finished. (not bashing just stating fact)
The problem with the faces being different is that our breed standard is vague and leaves alot to the breeder to define what they think a Maltese should look like. The TNT magazine for July had several Maltese breeders define what they think a Maltese Breeder should be looking for. Chrisman Maltese was one of those interviewed, it was interesting to read what they thought. There are so many differences that judges especially breed judges know what lineage the dogs they are judging is from. Different Kennels have different "looks". 
The Complete Maltese, by Nicholas Cutillo is a very interesting book of the history of different Kennels. Though I am sure not all of the popular Kennels were included. It would be neat if someone kept the ball rolling and continued his work with a new book that would include all the Kennels started in the 80's i.e. Rhapsody, Foxstone, Divine, Wesglyn, Bhe-jeh, Seabreeze, there are several.
Another thing, when I contacted Bonnie when I was considering buying a show prospect from her, she wanted me to pick out of her champions the head that I liked. She has different heads within her own breeding lines. 
JMO Tina


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## giselle79

Well, I'm learning a lot in here  but please, can anyone tell me how long should be a proper maltese muzzle in cms, because fingers is kind of variable measure


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## Cosy

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> Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.
> [/B]
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Not to change the subject, but to become the "Top Breeder" for the year for the AMA. The person has the most dogs that they have finished or had dogs that were finished for them in one year. Basically it means they are doing a lot of breeding to get that many dogs out at the right age to get them in the ring and finished. (not bashing just stating fact)
> The problem with the faces being different is that our breed standard is vague and leaves alot to the breeder to define what they think a Maltese should look like. The TNT magazine for July had several Maltese breeders define what they think a Maltese Breeder should be looking for. Chrisman Maltese was one of those interviewed, it was interesting to read what they thought. There are so many differences that judges especially breed judges know what lineage the dogs they are judging is from. Different Kennels have different "looks".
> The Complete Maltese, by Nicholas Cutillo is a very interesting book of the history of different Kennels. Though I am sure not all of the popular Kennels were included. It would be neat if someone kept the ball rolling and continued his work with a new book that would include all the Kennels started in the 80's i.e. Rhapsody, Foxstone, Divine, Wesglyn, Bhe-jeh, Seabreeze, there are several.
> Another thing, when I contacted Bonnie when I was considering buying a show prospect from her, she wanted me to pick out of her champions the head that I liked. She has different heads within her own breeding lines.
> JMO Tina
> [/B]
Click to expand...


I would love to see a continuance of that book too, Tina. Why don't you do it? LOL 
Yes, Bonnie does have different looks to choose from but many have that shorter muzzle. Of course, dogs don't generally look just like the dog they were bred from, but many have that resemblance and of course, as I said before, it depends on what that particular look was bred to.
Yes, it takes more dogs to become breeder of the year, but it also takes some quality to get those champions. Of course, she sometimes sells dogs that are finished by the new owner/breeder too.
It's a very interesting topic and so much fun to check out all the different lines that are blended. I wish more breeder/exhibitor sites had links to their pedigrees.


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## Tina

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> QUOTE(PrincessTunie @ Aug 11 2007, 08:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=419643
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> <div class='quotemain'>Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Not to change the subject, but to become the "Top Breeder" for the year for the AMA. The person has the most dogs that they have finished or had dogs that were finished for them in one year. Basically it means they are doing a lot of breeding to get that many dogs out at the right age to get them in the ring and finished. (not bashing just stating fact)
The problem with the faces being different is that our breed standard is vague and leaves alot to the breeder to define what they think a Maltese should look like. The TNT magazine for July had several Maltese breeders define what they think a Maltese Breeder should be looking for. Chrisman Maltese was one of those interviewed, it was interesting to read what they thought. There are so many differences that judges especially breed judges know what lineage the dogs they are judging is from. Different Kennels have different "looks". 
The Complete Maltese, by Nicholas Cutillo is a very interesting book of the history of different Kennels. Though I am sure not all of the popular Kennels were included. It would be neat if someone kept the ball rolling and continued his work with a new book that would include all the Kennels started in the 80's i.e. Rhapsody, Foxstone, Divine, Wesglyn, Bhe-jeh, Seabreeze, there are several.
Another thing, when I contacted Bonnie when I was considering buying a show prospect from her, she wanted me to pick out of her champions the head that I liked. She has different heads within her own breeding lines. 
JMO Tina
[/B][/QUOTE]


I would love to see a continuance of that book too, Tina. Why don't you do it? LOL 
Yes, Bonnie does have different looks to choose from but many have that shorter muzzle. Of course, dogs don't generally look just like the dog they were bred from, but many have that resemblance and of course, as I said before, it depends on what that particular look was bred to.
Yes, it takes more dogs to become breeder of the year, but it also takes some quality to get those champions. Of course, she sometimes sells dogs that are finished by the new owner/breeder too.
It's a very interesting topic and so much fun to check out all the different lines that are blended. I wish more breeder/exhibitor sites had links to their pedigrees.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I am constantly learning about new Kennels with some of the older lines in fairly younger dogs. A Kennel in Iowa has continued some of Joanne Hesse's breeding which goes back to Aennchen Kennel. The pedigree I saw was a 5 generation and Aennchen was in the 5th. Joanne hasn't been breeding in quite awhile. 
Writing a book is not for me. I cannot stay on track. Some one like Tonia H. would do a good job of it. 
Yes, it takes quality to get champions. Bonnie has achieved that. I was hoping to check a pedigree on Chrisman's site on a dog called Dancer and he doesn't have his pedigrees posted. :huh: 
There is so much to learn about the different breeders and where everyone started and how to keep your own breeding program on track. I have a beautiful puppy has everything I need but his pigment on his eyes isn't very strong. It gets frustrating sometimes.
Tina


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## Ladysmom

Tina, I must say your dogs have beautiful heads. They have a more traditional head, don't they? I think that is the look that appeals to me more than the so-called "baby doll" face.

I think it boils down to personal preference. I have had Siamese cats all my life, even as a child. They have recently been bred to have those real wedge shaped heads which I really don't care for. I still prefer the traditional "apple" head. I know in the show ring, either is acceptable.


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## I found nemo

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=419643
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> Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

well I wouldnt call it a SMOOSHED FACE but i'll tell you I love it and its gorgeous... :wub: 
ANDREA


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## KandiMaltese

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> Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.
> [/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not to change the subject, but to become the "Top Breeder" for the year for the AMA. The person has the most dogs that they have finished or had dogs that were finished for them in one year. Basically it means they are doing a lot of breeding to get that many dogs out at the right age to get them in the ring and finished. (not bashing just stating fact)
> The problem with the faces being different is that our breed standard is vague and leaves alot to the breeder to define what they think a Maltese should look like. The TNT magazine for July had several Maltese breeders define what they think a Maltese Breeder should be looking for. Chrisman Maltese was one of those interviewed, it was interesting to read what they thought. There are so many differences that judges especially breed judges know what lineage the dogs they are judging is from. Different Kennels have different "looks".
> The Complete Maltese, by Nicholas Cutillo is a very interesting book of the history of different Kennels. Though I am sure not all of the popular Kennels were included. It would be neat if someone kept the ball rolling and continued his work with a new book that would include all the Kennels started in the 80's i.e. Rhapsody, Foxstone, Divine, Wesglyn, Bhe-jeh, Seabreeze, there are several.
> Another thing, when I contacted Bonnie when I was considering buying a show prospect from her, she wanted me to pick out of her champions the head that I liked. She has different heads within her own breeding lines.
> JMO Tina
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing! 

I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career. 

I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin: 

I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head. 

Tina, yes you do have some nice heads to your line. Charlotte's Web is one of yours that I've admired. They are all beautiful, she just popped out at me! She looks very special :wub: 



> Tina, I must say your dogs have beautiful heads. They have a more traditional head, don't they? I think that is the look that appeals to me more than the so-called "baby doll" face.
> 
> I think it boils down to personal preference. I have had Siamese cats all my life, even as a child. They have recently been bred to have those real wedge shaped heads which I really don't care for. I still prefer the traditional "apple" head. I know in the show ring, either is acceptable.[/B]


Yes, I think it does boil down to personal preference indeed. I like everyone's maltese on here, they are all very cute..I'm not saying I hate anyone's look . I want to make it clear I'm not intending to offend. I just prefer a certain look to the other for myself.


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## Cosy

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> QUOTE(PrincessTunie @ Aug 11 2007, 08:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=419643
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> <div class='quotemain'>Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Not to change the subject, but to become the "Top Breeder" for the year for the AMA. The person has the most dogs that they have finished or had dogs that were finished for them in one year. Basically it means they are doing a lot of breeding to get that many dogs out at the right age to get them in the ring and finished. (not bashing just stating fact)
The problem with the faces being different is that our breed standard is vague and leaves alot to the breeder to define what they think a Maltese should look like. The TNT magazine for July had several Maltese breeders define what they think a Maltese Breeder should be looking for. Chrisman Maltese was one of those interviewed, it was interesting to read what they thought. There are so many differences that judges especially breed judges know what lineage the dogs they are judging is from. Different Kennels have different "looks". 
The Complete Maltese, by Nicholas Cutillo is a very interesting book of the history of different Kennels. Though I am sure not all of the popular Kennels were included. It would be neat if someone kept the ball rolling and continued his work with a new book that would include all the Kennels started in the 80's i.e. Rhapsody, Foxstone, Divine, Wesglyn, Bhe-jeh, Seabreeze, there are several.
Another thing, when I contacted Bonnie when I was considering buying a show prospect from her, she wanted me to pick out of her champions the head that I liked. She has different heads within her own breeding lines. 
JMO Tina
[/B][/QUOTE]

Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing! 

I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career. 

I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin: 

I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head. 

Tina, yes you do have some nice heads to your line. Charlotte's Web is one of yours that I've admired. They are all beautiful, she just popped out at me! She looks very special :wub: 



> Tina, I must say your dogs have beautiful heads. They have a more traditional head, don't they? I think that is the look that appeals to me more than the so-called "baby doll" face.
> 
> I think it boils down to personal preference. I have had Siamese cats all my life, even as a child. They have recently been bred to have those real wedge shaped heads which I really don't care for. I still prefer the traditional "apple" head. I know in the show ring, either is acceptable.[/B]


Yes, I think it does boil down to personal preference indeed. I like everyone's maltese on here, they are all very cute..I'm not saying I hate anyone's look . I want to make it clear I'm not intending to offend. I just prefer a certain look to the other for myself. 


[/B][/QUOTE]


I don't recall ever seeing a maltese that looked like a shih tzu. I have seen some shih tzus who look like maltese, however. LOL! 
I think smaller muzzles are being misrepresented there. Smaller muzzles are typically on smaller heads, thus lending to the fact and as I said before, still having lots of coat on the muzzle helps create that "look". Shih tzus noses are truly pushed in. You cannot get a finger across the bridge. Not true of the shorter nosed maltese. The eye set is wider due to the bit broader skull, also lending to the look. 
Tiny faces do not necessarily mean short noses. I have seen some tiny faces with somewhat long snipey noses. Often babydoll heads are linked to that look too.


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## Ladysmom

Andrea, I think you and I must have similar taste. I also love the Ta-Jon look.

Of, course, my favorite face of all is Miss Lady's. :wub: 

She is from the very famous Milla Puppie line!


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## maltese-lovers

Our favourite face looks like this: :wub: 
Short black nose,big eyes and,of course,smile...awwwww


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## sassy's mommy

> Well, I'm learning a lot in here  but please, can anyone tell me how long should be a proper maltese muzzle in cms, because fingers is kind of variable measure [/B]


Many well known breeders opt and breed for a balanced face/head. The distance from the tip of the nose to the stop should = 1/3; from the stop to the center of the head should = 1/3; and from the center of the head to the back of the head should = 1/3. Hope this helps.


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## carrie

i don't know what look mini's considered... but i love her look......AND her personality! :wub:


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## coco

Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing! 

I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career. 

I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin: 

I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head. 
--------------------------------------


I am certainly no expert on all things Maltese, nor do I pretend to be, but the baby doll face is NOT smooshed like a Shihtzu's face. When the dog is in full show coat, the muzzle will look longer than if the dog is in a shorter cut. In the shorter cut, the hair tends to poof up around its eyes making the nose appear shorter. In full coat, the weight of the hair pulls the hair down. The dog with the baby doll face does have a shorter muzzle, but to say they aren't seen in the ring is just absolutely not the case. Here is a picture of Coco in almost full coat, and her muzzle looks longer than in my signature picture, just because her hair is longer. 
[attachment=25501:spoiled_..._welcome.jpg]
Below is a picture of Coco's sire, and you can see that he sure made it in the ring.
[attachment=25502:hotrumor_feb2005.jpg]
Ch. Hot Rumor at Khanthav Remained #1 male maltese in USA during his entire career. 

There are several breeders who have done well with this look. Bonnie isn't the only one, but looking at Divine and Chalet and even Tajon, I see they, too, have that sweet face on some of their dogs. 

Just curious, but if you like the Tajon look the best, why didn't you buy a Tajon pup to show?


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## coco

> i don't know what look mini's considered... but i love her look......AND her personality! :wub:[/B]


She's considered gorgeous! :wub: :wub: :wub:


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## sassy's mommy

> Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing!
> 
> I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career.
> 
> I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin:
> 
> I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head.
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> I am certainly no expert on all things Maltese, nor do I pretend to be, but the baby doll face is NOT smooshed like a Shihtzu's face. When the dog is in full show coat, the muzzle will look longer than if the dog is in a shorter cut. In the shorter cut, the hair tends to poof up around its eyes making the nose appear shorter. In full coat, the weight of the hair pulls the hair down. The dog with the baby doll face does have a shorter muzzle, but to say they aren't seen in the ring is just absolutely not the case. Here is a picture of Coco in almost full coat, and her muzzle looks longer than in my signature picture, just because her hair is longer.
> [attachment=25501:spoiled_..._welcome.jpg]
> Below is a picture of Coco's sire, and you can see that he sure made it in the ring.
> [attachment=25502:hotrumor_feb2005.jpg]
> Ch. Hot Rumor at Khanthav Remained #1 male maltese in USA during his entire carrier.
> 
> There are several breeders who have done well with this look. Bonnie isn't the only one, but looking at Divine and Chalet and even Tajon, I see they, too, have that sweet face on some of their dogs.
> 
> Just curious, but if you like the Tajon look the best, why didn't you buy a Tajon pup to show?[/B]


Mary Ann I agree.........there are many top breeders who have what I call the Marcris look. You can spot those babies across the ring in a heart beat. These faces have been winning for years. 

Many times people think that the reference "baby doll face" means smoochie. But when I think of baby doll face I think of the wide set eyes which to me can make the snout appear shorter. Breeders also love nice heads.....it is not all about noses.


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## KandiMaltese

I bought a MiDis maltese ..my boy has Rhapsody in him along with lots of others including Marcris, and many more, but all those looks combined is what made him look the way he does..he looks a bit like a Tajon boy in my opinion. He has the look I love. Plus, I am smitten with Dian Lynch and her dogs are absolutely breathtaking. This is my opinion and only my opinion. 

I think the wide eye set, big foreheaded look and NEARLY no muzzle..(not quite as smooshed as shihtzu but not far from it) isn't my preference..It just doesn't look like what I picture in my head as a Maltese look. Tajon has smaller heads and STILL even in short coat has a muzzle..sure it's short..like my boy, but it's more proportionate than teh line you are speaking of. Obviously you love that look as you have it and that is YOUR preference. Nothing wrong with that. Just not what I like. I don't see proportion..the eyeset is not all similiar to the length of nose. 

Here is a pic of Ace, my boy from Dian Lynch of MiDis Maltese

[attachment=25512:Acebaby_006.jpg] He has the face i truly :wub: 

Again, my opinion..hey there are a ton of options out there..pizza, chinese..etc..all food, different tastes.

Andrea


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## Ladysmom

Andrea, your post reminded me of the lyrics to that Barbra Streisand song!


Look at that face just look at it!
Look at that fabulous face of yours,
I knew first look I took at it,
This was the face that the world adores,
Look at those eyes,
As wise and as deep as the sea,
Look at that nose,
It shows what a nose should be!
As for your smile, it's lyrical
Friendly and warm as a summer day,
Your face is just a miracle,
Where could I ever find words to say
The way that it makes me happy,
Whatever the time or place,
I will find in no book,
I will find when I love,
I'll go far!

:biggrin:


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## KandiMaltese

Oh how nice Marj! I enjoy that poem. I may use that..would you mind terribly if I borrowed it for my site? :wub: 

Thank you so much..you're the best :biggrin:


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## Cosy

> I bought a MiDis maltese ..my boy has Rhapsody in him along with lots of others including Marcris, and many more, but all those looks combined is what made him look the way he does..he looks a bit like a Tajon boy in my opinion. He has the look I love. Plus, I am smitten with Dian Lynch and her dogs are absolutely breathtaking. This is my opinion and only my opinion.
> 
> I think the wide eye set, big foreheaded look and NEARLY no muzzle..(not quite as smooshed as shihtzu but not far from it) isn't my preference..It just doesn't look like what I picture in my head as a Maltese look. Tajon has smaller heads and STILL even in short coat has a muzzle..sure it's short..like my boy, but it's more proportionate than teh line you are speaking of. Obviously you love that look as you have it and that is YOUR preference. Nothing wrong with that. Just not what I like. I don't see proportion..the eyeset is not all similiar to the length of nose.
> 
> Here is a pic of Ace, my boy from Dian Lynch of MiDis Maltese
> 
> He has the face i truly :wub:
> 
> Again, my opinion..hey there are a ton of options out there..pizza, chinese..etc..all food, different tastes.
> 
> Andrea [/B]



Do you know that many many exhibitors will poof topknot(s) so the forehead appears bigger and at more of a moderate angle to the nose in order to make the face appear shorter? It's fact.
I don't believe big foreheads are there, but made .. lol. I know Cosy and Toy don't have big foreheads and I don't see it on other shorter nose dogs. Perhaps you're referring to the more hydrocephalic dog? Those with large domey heads and open fontanelles. Sometimes one of those will show in any line, though I haven't heard of anyone on here with one and I know breeders don't use them or show them.


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## Ladysmom

> Oh how nice Marj! I enjoy that poem. I may use that..would you mind terribly if I borrowed it for my site? :wub:
> 
> Thank you so much..you're the best :biggrin:[/B]


I love that song! It would be perfect for your website!

Check out the video. Doesn't it look like a Maltipoo?

http://music.aol.com/video/i-stayed-too-lo...reisand/1431093


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## coco

> I bought a MiDis maltese ..my boy has Rhapsody in him along with lots of others including Marcris, and many more, but all those looks combined is what made him look the way he does..he looks a bit like a Tajon boy in my opinion. He has the look I love. Plus, I am smitten with Dian Lynch and her dogs are absolutely breathtaking. This is my opinion and only my opinion.
> 
> I think the wide eye set, big foreheaded look and NEARLY no muzzle..(not quite as smooshed as shihtzu but not far from it) isn't my preference..It just doesn't look like what I picture in my head as a Maltese look. Tajon has smaller heads and STILL even in short coat has a muzzle..sure it's short..like my boy, but it's more proportionate than teh line you are speaking of. Obviously you love that look as you have it and that is YOUR preference. Nothing wrong with that. Just not what I like. I don't see proportion..the eyeset is not all similiar to the length of nose.
> 
> Here is a pic of Ace, my boy from Dian Lynch of MiDis Maltese
> 
> [attachment=25512:Acebaby_006.jpg] He has the face i truly :wub:
> 
> Again, my opinion..hey there are a ton of options out there..pizza, chinese..etc..all food, different tastes.
> 
> Andrea [/B]


Andrea, I am quite pleased you love the looks of your dog. I feel sure all of us only wish you the best when you show him. Be sure to let us know when you plan on doing that, as I know I would love to know about it. However, this started when you called the baby doll faces "smooshed noses" and then continued to say that they didn't make it to the ring--you hadn't seen them or read about them. I don't believe I am the only one who has proven you wrong about that. You are more than welcome to your opinion on faces, but I guess I am glad you aren't a judge, as there are loads of champions who would lose their rankings (is that what we call it?) if you were doing the judging. I sure would never say your dog has a long snout like a Cairn Terrier, and it's tail doesn't stand up. But, you are right, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.


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## coco

> Oh how nice Marj! I enjoy that poem. I may use that..would you mind terribly if I borrowed it for my site? :wub:
> 
> Thank you so much..you're the best :biggrin:[/B]



Well, you really might want to ask Barbra Streisand, since she's the one who wrote it. I doubt Marj cares, but Barbra might. ROFL!


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## KandiMaltese

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> I bought a MiDis maltese ..my boy has Rhapsody in him along with lots of others including Marcris, and many more, but all those looks combined is what made him look the way he does..he looks a bit like a Tajon boy in my opinion. He has the look I love. Plus, I am smitten with Dian Lynch and her dogs are absolutely breathtaking. This is my opinion and only my opinion.
> 
> I think the wide eye set, big foreheaded look and NEARLY no muzzle..(not quite as smooshed as shihtzu but not far from it) isn't my preference..It just doesn't look like what I picture in my head as a Maltese look. Tajon has smaller heads and STILL even in short coat has a muzzle..sure it's short..like my boy, but it's more proportionate than teh line you are speaking of. Obviously you love that look as you have it and that is YOUR preference. Nothing wrong with that. Just not what I like. I don't see proportion..the eyeset is not all similiar to the length of nose.
> 
> Here is a pic of Ace, my boy from Dian Lynch of MiDis Maltese
> 
> [attachment=25512:Acebaby_006.jpg] He has the face i truly :wub:
> 
> Again, my opinion..hey there are a ton of options out there..pizza, chinese..etc..all food, different tastes.
> 
> Andrea [/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Andrea, I am quite pleased you love the looks of your dog. I feel sure all of us only wish you the best when you show him. Be sure to let us know when you plan on doing that, as I know I would love to know about it. However, this started when you called the baby doll faces "smooshed noses" and then continued to say that they didn't make it to the ring--you hadn't seen them or read about them. I don't believe I am the only one who has proven you wrong about that. You are more than welcome to your opinion on faces, but I guess I am glad you aren't a judge, as there are loads of champions who would lose their rankings (is that what we call it?) if you were doing the judging. I sure would never say your dog has a long snout like a Cairn Terrier, and it's tail doesn't stand up. But, you are right, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Yes, I am very pleased with the looks of my boy. But again personal preference. None of my dogs have a long snout or tail that doesn't stand up..thank goodness! I wouldn't want that! ) And thanks for the warm wishes on my show career. If I'm in Florida for a show, i'll be sure to let you know where ..It would be great for you to come and route for us! :biggrin: 

I'm saying in the shows I'VE been to and the books I'VE read it states muzzle should be in proportion. Now, with that being said, I must say i'd bet Bonnie Palmer's dogs that she SHOWS don't have so much of a smooshed face. They are most likely in proportion to breed standard. That is the point I was making. The ones that have the wider eye set with nearly no muzzle are pets. If they weren't, i'm sure she would have kept them or put them in a show home, right?. I just don't think that look is a show look. Marcris probably will show the dogs that have a muzzle in proportion. In about a week or so Nationals will be here and i'm sure their dogs will be there. I will be sure to take pictures and show you what I mean. Those people have the smoosh face in their lines, but they generally aren't seen in the ring nearly as much as put in pet homes. As Tina said, they have several different heads..one I would guess more for pet and one more for show. Just a guess though. Not meaning to step on anyone's toes here..I just thought show dogs were supposed to be in proportion. I will bring my camera to the AMA show and do a little investigating  I have learned so much about the breed standard lately..it's a sea of information!




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> Oh how nice Marj! I enjoy that poem. I may use that..would you mind terribly if I borrowed it for my site? :wub:
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> Thank you so much..you're the best :biggrin:[/B]
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> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, you really might want to ask Barbra Steisand, since she's the one who wrote it. I doubt Marj cares, but Barbra might. ROFL!
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Yes, but since it was Marj who posted it and it was her idea to put it here, i figured I'd ask her. Just out of respect. hope it wasn't too silly of a question Marj.


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## Cosy

The fact is the standard is vague when it comes to the head and moderate stop means not sloping or no stop at all but moderate, creating a divide between muzzle and forehead. You will see all types at the national. ALL TYPES. Some will have topknots used as a way of creating the illusion of a more balanced head and shorter muzzle!!! Some will not need to do that as they will have that pretty head. If you haven't seen the doll faced dogs in the ring before, you will this time. I haven't seen any maltese with "nearly no muzzle", as you put it, anywhere.


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## Cosy

As for Bonnie's dogs not being shown with doll faces...did you see the pic of Coco's father...a rather wellknown champion? Did you see the pic of Cosy's father? Here, let me show you again.
[attachment=25518:Cosys_Dad.jpg] 
Sure looks like a dollface to me and the topknot is not on his nose to make it appear shorter.


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## PuttiePie

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> QUOTE(PrincessTunie @ Aug 11 2007, 08:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=419643
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> 
> <div class='quotemain'>Personally, I don't care for a smooshed in face. It is not characteristic of the Maltese. That wide eyeset and short muzzle always looked a little odd to me. I like a small face, don't get me wrong, but that side eye set is just not typical of a Maltese..looks more like a shihtzu to me. Although, all maltese are cute :wub: I like a small nose, but proper and in proportion to what the standard calls for! And a proper eyeset. Noses are supposed to be about even with the eyeset..Not too long, not smashed in. Hope that helps!
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To each her own, but the "smooshed face," as you call it, must be desired, since Bonnie Palmer has been breeding them for a number of years, and she was chosen as the Top Maltese breeder by the American Maltese Association for about 6 years in a row. It doesn't seem to hurt her numerous Champions. Joyce Watkins is known as the Godmother because of that beautiful face.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Not to change the subject, but to become the "Top Breeder" for the year for the AMA. The person has the most dogs that they have finished or had dogs that were finished for them in one year. Basically it means they are doing a lot of breeding to get that many dogs out at the right age to get them in the ring and finished. (not bashing just stating fact)
The problem with the faces being different is that our breed standard is vague and leaves alot to the breeder to define what they think a Maltese should look like. The TNT magazine for July had several Maltese breeders define what they think a Maltese Breeder should be looking for. Chrisman Maltese was one of those interviewed, it was interesting to read what they thought. There are so many differences that judges especially breed judges know what lineage the dogs they are judging is from. Different Kennels have different "looks". 
The Complete Maltese, by Nicholas Cutillo is a very interesting book of the history of different Kennels. Though I am sure not all of the popular Kennels were included. It would be neat if someone kept the ball rolling and continued his work with a new book that would include all the Kennels started in the 80's i.e. Rhapsody, Foxstone, Divine, Wesglyn, Bhe-jeh, Seabreeze, there are several.
Another thing, when I contacted Bonnie when I was considering buying a show prospect from her, she wanted me to pick out of her champions the head that I liked. She has different heads within her own breeding lines. 
JMO Tina
[/B][/QUOTE]

Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing! 

I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career. 

I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin: 

I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head. 

Tina, yes you do have some nice heads to your line. Charlotte's Web is one of yours that I've admired. They are all beautiful, she just popped out at me! She looks very special :wub: 



> Tina, I must say your dogs have beautiful heads. They have a more traditional head, don't they? I think that is the look that appeals to me more than the so-called "baby doll" face.
> 
> I think it boils down to personal preference. I have had Siamese cats all my life, even as a child. They have recently been bred to have those real wedge shaped heads which I really don't care for. I still prefer the traditional "apple" head. I know in the show ring, either is acceptable.[/B]


Yes, I think it does boil down to personal preference indeed. I like everyone's maltese on here, they are all very cute..I'm not saying I hate anyone's look . I want to make it clear I'm not intending to offend. I just prefer a certain look to the other for myself.
[/B][/QUOTE]Andrea, maybe after you have had some ACTUAL show experience you will be in a better postition to pass such judgement. I don't see Bonnie Palmer as a failure in the Maltese World with mishapen dogs...On the CONTRARY, SHE is well known and well respected....I am happy you are following Dian Lynch and that she is helping you. I am happy you might get a chance to show and learn. Realize, though, when I was searching for my baby, the breeders I spoke with had never even HEARD of Dian Lynch. In a case like this, experience speaks volumes. It's great to learn from those who actually know and have proven themselves over and over year after year...Just my opinion.


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## coco

Andrea, I am quite pleased you love the looks of your dog. I feel sure all of us only wish you the best when you show him. Be sure to let us know when you plan on doing that, as I know I would love to know about it. However, this started when you called the baby doll faces "smooshed noses" and then continued to say that they didn't make it to the ring--you hadn't seen them or read about them. I don't believe I am the only one who has proven you wrong about that. You are more than welcome to your opinion on faces, but I guess I am glad you aren't a judge, as there are loads of champions who would lose their rankings (is that what we call it?) if you were doing the judging. I sure would never say your dog has a long snout like a Cairn Terrier, and it's tail doesn't stand up. But, you are right, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am very pleased with the looks of my boy. But again personal preference. None of my dogs have a long snout or tail that doesn't stand up..thank goodness! I wouldn't want that! ) And thanks for the warm wishes on my show career. If I'm in Florida for a show, i'll be sure to let you know where ..It would be great for you to come and route for us! :biggrin: 

-----------------------
Andrea, I'm only in Florida in the winter. I actually live right now in Dallas, but I tend to travel. Be sure to keep us informed on his show career. 
--------------------
I'm saying in the shows I'VE been to and the books I'VE read it states muzzle should be in proportion. Now, with that being said, I must say i'd bet Bonnie Palmer's dogs that she SHOWS don't have so much of a smooshed face. They are most likely in proportion to breed standard. That is the point I was making. The ones that have the wider eye set with nearly no muzzle are pets. If they weren't, i'm sure she would have kept them or put them in a show home, right?. I just don't think that look is a show look. Marcris probably will show the dogs that have a muzzle in proportion. In about a week or so Nationals will be here and i'm sure their dogs will be there. I will be sure to take pictures and show you what I mean. Those people have the smoosh face in their lines, but they generally aren't seen in the ring nearly as much as put in pet homes. As Tina said, they have several different heads..one I would guess more for pet and one more for show. Just a guess though. Not meaning to step on anyone's toes here..I just thought show dogs were supposed to be in proportion. I will bring my camera to the AMA show and do a little investigating  I have learned so much about the breed standard lately..it's a sea of information!
-----------------------------
LOL! Oh, Andrea. If I might borrow a line from Ronald Reagan, "There you go again." As a matter of fact, Bonnie suggested to me not to have Coco spayed until she was at least a year old and suggested that I show her. Now I know she may not be what YOU might consider to be a show dog, since you don't like that look, but I would trust Bonnie's opinion of Coco long before I would take your word for it. I just had no desire to get into showing dogs, but I wanted one which was worthy. You might want to look at Coco's sire again. Look at that smooshed up nose. ROFL! 
[attachment=25519:hotrumor_feb2005.jpg] 
http://www.bonniesmaltese.com/champions/rumor/index.htm That link will take you to more pictures of him and his "smooshed nose."


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## bellaratamaltese

> Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing!
> 
> I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career.
> 
> I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin:
> 
> I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head.
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> I am certainly no expert on all things Maltese, nor do I pretend to be, but the baby doll face is NOT smooshed like a Shihtzu's face. When the dog is in full show coat, the muzzle will look longer than if the dog is in a shorter cut. In the shorter cut, the hair tends to poof up around its eyes making the nose appear shorter. In full coat, the weight of the hair pulls the hair down. The dog with the baby doll face does have a shorter muzzle, but to say they aren't seen in the ring is just absolutely not the case. Here is a picture of Coco in almost full coat, and her muzzle looks longer than in my signature picture, just because her hair is longer.
> [attachment=25501:spoiled_..._welcome.jpg]
> Below is a picture of Coco's sire, and you can see that he sure made it in the ring.
> [attachment=25502:hotrumor_feb2005.jpg]
> Ch. Hot Rumor at Khanthav Remained #1 male maltese in USA during his entire career.
> 
> There are several breeders who have done well with this look. Bonnie isn't the only one, but looking at Divine and Chalet and even Tajon, I see they, too, have that sweet face on some of their dogs.
> 
> Just curious, but if you like the Tajon look the best, why didn't you buy a Tajon pup to show?[/B]


Wow, no wonder Coco is so beautiful, I didn't realize that Ch Hot Rumor at Kanthav was her sire! I LOVE LOVE LOVE him! He is on a cover of maltese magazine and I admire him often! 

And I am finding myself becoming an admirer of movement over a nice face, but put a gorgeous face with wondeful movement? It it actually can take my breath away. :wub: :wub:


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## coco

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=419930
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> 
> 
> 
> Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing!
> 
> I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career.
> 
> I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin:
> 
> I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head.
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> I am certainly no expert on all things Maltese, nor do I pretend to be, but the baby doll face is NOT smooshed like a Shihtzu's face. When the dog is in full show coat, the muzzle will look longer than if the dog is in a shorter cut. In the shorter cut, the hair tends to poof up around its eyes making the nose appear shorter. In full coat, the weight of the hair pulls the hair down. The dog with the baby doll face does have a shorter muzzle, but to say they aren't seen in the ring is just absolutely not the case. Here is a picture of Coco in almost full coat, and her muzzle looks longer than in my signature picture, just because her hair is longer.
> [attachment=25501:spoiled_..._welcome.jpg]
> Below is a picture of Coco's sire, and you can see that he sure made it in the ring.
> [attachment=25502:hotrumor_feb2005.jpg]
> Ch. Hot Rumor at Khanthav Remained #1 male maltese in USA during his entire career.
> 
> There are several breeders who have done well with this look. Bonnie isn't the only one, but looking at Divine and Chalet and even Tajon, I see they, too, have that sweet face on some of their dogs.
> 
> Just curious, but if you like the Tajon look the best, why didn't you buy a Tajon pup to show?[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, no wonder Coco is so beautiful, I didn't realize that Ch Hot Rumor at Kanthav was her sire! I LOVE LOVE LOVE him! He is on a cover of maltese magazine and I admire him often!
> 
> And I am finding myself becoming an admirer of movement over a nice face, but put a gorgeous face with wondeful movement? It it actually can take my breath away. :wub: :wub:
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Thank you very much. That's so sweet of you to say about Coco. Hot Rumor is is a gorgeous dog, isn't he?


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## Cosy

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=419930
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> 
> Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing!
> 
> I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career.
> 
> I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin:
> 
> I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head.
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> I am certainly no expert on all things Maltese, nor do I pretend to be, but the baby doll face is NOT smooshed like a Shihtzu's face. When the dog is in full show coat, the muzzle will look longer than if the dog is in a shorter cut. In the shorter cut, the hair tends to poof up around its eyes making the nose appear shorter. In full coat, the weight of the hair pulls the hair down. The dog with the baby doll face does have a shorter muzzle, but to say they aren't seen in the ring is just absolutely not the case. Here is a picture of Coco in almost full coat, and her muzzle looks longer than in my signature picture, just because her hair is longer.
> [attachment=25501:spoiled_..._welcome.jpg]
> Below is a picture of Coco's sire, and you can see that he sure made it in the ring.
> [attachment=25502:hotrumor_feb2005.jpg]
> Ch. Hot Rumor at Khanthav Remained #1 male maltese in USA during his entire career.
> 
> There are several breeders who have done well with this look. Bonnie isn't the only one, but looking at Divine and Chalet and even Tajon, I see they, too, have that sweet face on some of their dogs.
> 
> Just curious, but if you like the Tajon look the best, why didn't you buy a Tajon pup to show?[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, no wonder Coco is so beautiful, I didn't realize that Ch Hot Rumor at Kanthav was her sire! I LOVE LOVE LOVE him! He is on a cover of maltese magazine and I admire him often!
> 
> And I am finding myself becoming an admirer of movement over a nice face, but put a gorgeous face with wondeful movement? It it actually can take my breath away. :wub: :wub:
> 
> [/B]
Click to expand...


Yes, Stacy. That's what it's all about. Without movement, conformation and showmanship a pretty head is just a pretty head whether it's a long nose or a shorter one.


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## bellaratamaltese

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=420065
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Tina, very interesting ! When I think of show dogs, I don't think of that face. That "smoosh face" look isn't what hits the ring. Atleast not from what I've seen or read...the dog must be in proportion. That face is desirable in the pet world and it's just a look that doesn't appeal to me. Like Marj said, each has their own preferences in looks. Each Maltese breeder has their own look even though they are all breeding the same breed which I find very amazing!
> 
> I prefer the Tajon look. I also like Rhapsody. I recently bought a show boy and he has an extremely tiny face, but still he is in proportion..not a smoosh face and that is the look I want in my lines, so that is what I chose to start off my show career.
> 
> I think we can agree that all the lines have beauty to them, I mean we are talking about a Maltese here, right? :wub: Heck, you can mix one line with the other and come up with a completely different look! That is my goal, to better the breed and be known for my own certain "look". :biggrin:
> 
> I just think a Maltese should look like a Maltese and not a shih tzu. Hey, I really love shihtzu's they are beautiful, but I certainly don't want my Maltese to look like one. Nor do I want my shihtzu to look like my Maltese :huh: When I think of Maltese, I have a certain picture in my head.
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> I am certainly no expert on all things Maltese, nor do I pretend to be, but the baby doll face is NOT smooshed like a Shihtzu's face. When the dog is in full show coat, the muzzle will look longer than if the dog is in a shorter cut. In the shorter cut, the hair tends to poof up around its eyes making the nose appear shorter. In full coat, the weight of the hair pulls the hair down. The dog with the baby doll face does have a shorter muzzle, but to say they aren't seen in the ring is just absolutely not the case. Here is a picture of Coco in almost full coat, and her muzzle looks longer than in my signature picture, just because her hair is longer.
> [attachment=25501:spoiled_..._welcome.jpg]
> Below is a picture of Coco's sire, and you can see that he sure made it in the ring.
> [attachment=25502:hotrumor_feb2005.jpg]
> Ch. Hot Rumor at Khanthav Remained #1 male maltese in USA during his entire career.
> 
> There are several breeders who have done well with this look. Bonnie isn't the only one, but looking at Divine and Chalet and even Tajon, I see they, too, have that sweet face on some of their dogs.
> 
> Just curious, but if you like the Tajon look the best, why didn't you buy a Tajon pup to show?[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, no wonder Coco is so beautiful, I didn't realize that Ch Hot Rumor at Kanthav was her sire! I LOVE LOVE LOVE him! He is on a cover of maltese magazine and I admire him often!
> 
> And I am finding myself becoming an admirer of movement over a nice face, but put a gorgeous face with wondeful movement? It it actually can take my breath away. :wub: :wub:
> 
> [/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, Stacy. That's what it's all about. Without movement, conformation and showmanship a pretty head is just a pretty head whether it's a long nose or a shorter one.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

I didn't really know what that meant, a pretty head just being a pretty head without the whole package, until recently. Every show I go to and every maltese I see in the ring, it is just becoming that much clearer to me. Won't even go into coat, temperment, etc. 

*dreamy sigh* I just love this breed.


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## violet lace

> Hi, I see cute little maltese with flatter noses. My little one has a longer nose. I'm wondering what the standard is?
> Thanks for the info -[/B]


Thanks everybody for explaining Maltese noses to me. I have to say, "Baby doll face" or not all your pictures of your dogs are so cute. I suppose, it really doesn't matter how pretty the nose it' s the personality right. Wish everybody lots of wags! Thanks again-


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## KandiMaltese

I will take lots of pics at the show. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the smooshed faces/wide eyeset dogs are in the ring we'll see. I am still new at this and only have books and the few shows I've been to, to determine what I've said. I will do my best to make time to note these things and ask about it. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit. I really didn't think it was standard and/or shown in the ring, but we will see. I will be sure to let you know when I start showing. If you travel, you really should have come to Nationals..It's going to be great! :biggrin: 

Andrea


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## coco

> I will take lots of pics at the show. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the smooshed faces/wide eyeset dogs are in the ring we'll see. I am still new at this and only have books and the few shows I've been to, to determine what I've said. I will do my best to make time to note these things and ask about it. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit. I really didn't think it was standard and/or shown in the ring, but we will see. I will be sure to let you know when I start showing. If you travel, you really should have come to Nationals..It's going to be great! :biggrin:
> 
> Andrea[/B]


You are still new at this, Andrea. In fact, you aren't even really started. Owning a dog which might be shown surely doesn't make one an expert on what is shown or even what wins. Until you have the experience of showing, you can think whatever you want. I highly doubt the one show you attended in Owensboro is a perfect example of all types of looks which are shown. Weren't most of those dogs pretty much from the same lines? One's opinion does not make it fact, and you were stating your opinions as fact. That's a bit naive. You've already been proven wrong, so maybe you would like to just admit it now. <note to Andrea, click the link in my prior post> An "I sorry, I was wrong" will be fine. :biggrin: I have one other little piece of advice from someone who's lived much longer than you. If you want to sound a bit more professional, you might want to say doll face or short muzzle rather than "smooshed face." It is also much less insulting and even kind to those of us who love the look. 
Your pictures from Nationals will not prove a thing to me except that you have taken pics of the dogs you happen to like. LOL! Thanks, but going to Nationals is not on my schedule, but I hope you all have a fabulous time.


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## Cosy

> I will take lots of pics at the show. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the smooshed faces/wide eyeset dogs are in the ring we'll see. I am still new at this and only have books and the few shows I've been to, to determine what I've said. I will do my best to make time to note these things and ask about it. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit. I really didn't think it was standard and/or shown in the ring, but we will see. I will be sure to let you know when I start showing. If you travel, you really should have come to Nationals..It's going to be great! :biggrin:
> 
> Andrea[/B]



Andrea, one thing you will learn, if you pursue showing, is one person's opinion is just that. I know you think highly of your mentor, but there is much to learn and more opinions equally as important. 
The look you like in maltese right now may very well change in the future so don't burn your bridges
so quickly. Appreciate all who try to help you learn along the way. Life is too short to be closed minded.


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## Ladysmom

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=419188
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> Is it true that to get the baby doll face some breeders make maltese and shitzu and then use a mixed parent with a purebred parent so the puppy is 1/4 shitzu and 3/4 maltese? It's just something I've heard a few times. On the other hand, how to get the measure of the muzzle in cm, because the AKC standard sounds kind of funny to my interpretation and my fingers are really thin so I cannot get a good idea. [/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL, well that sounds like a nice recipe but, no, that isn't how they get the smaller muzzles. In fact, you see the smaller muzzles on many maltese these days due to a wonderful little dog out of Marcris maltese named Risque Business (multi champion and ROM). His father was Marshmallow and he too had a darling little face. The faces on these maltese are not flat as you would see more often in shih tzus and brussels griffons, but rather just a shorter muzzle..not pushed in...not broad. The maltese standard calls for a "Moderate" stop, which is more defined than in many dogs (including the yorkie). It's more of a defined angle and helps lend the appearance of a shorter muzzle. Because the hair is so thick by adulthood on the muzzle it can give an even shorter look to the nose which often times takes on the nicknames of smooshy or doll faced. With this look also comes the wider set eyes...but not too wide set. Many breeders are thrilled to have this look in their line and that is why you will see Marcris in so many lines these days. He surely did leave a darling legacy and I know Joyce Watkins is very proud.
> [/B]
Click to expand...


I am really troubled by the tone of some of these replies.  

The word that seems to have upset some people is "smooshed". 

Could everyone please remember that it was Brit herself who brought up the term "smooshed" face in post #5, although she said the nickname was "smooshy"?

Can't we all just agree that Maltese from all the show breeders are beautiful even though their looks may vary within the standard? rayer:


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## Cosy

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=419226
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> 
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> 
> Is it true that to get the baby doll face some breeders make maltese and shitzu and then use a mixed parent with a purebred parent so the puppy is 1/4 shitzu and 3/4 maltese? It's just something I've heard a few times. On the other hand, how to get the measure of the muzzle in cm, because the AKC standard sounds kind of funny to my interpretation and my fingers are really thin so I cannot get a good idea. [/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL, well that sounds like a nice recipe but, no, that isn't how they get the smaller muzzles. In fact, you see the smaller muzzles on many maltese these days due to a wonderful little dog out of Marcris maltese named Risque Business (multi champion and ROM). His father was Marshmallow and he too had a darling little face. The faces on these maltese are not flat as you would see more often in shih tzus and brussels griffons, but rather just a shorter muzzle..not pushed in...not broad. The maltese standard calls for a "Moderate" stop, which is more defined than in many dogs (including the yorkie). It's more of a defined angle and helps lend the appearance of a shorter muzzle. Because the hair is so thick by adulthood on the muzzle it can give an even shorter look to the nose which often times takes on the nicknames of smooshy or doll faced. With this look also comes the wider set eyes...but not too wide set. Many breeders are thrilled to have this look in their line and that is why you will see Marcris in so many lines these days. He surely did leave a darling legacy and I know Joyce Watkins is very proud.
> [/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am really troubled by the tone of some of these replies.
> 
> The word that seems to have upset some people is "smooshed".
> 
> Could everyone please remember that it was Brit herself who brought up the term "smooshed" face in post #5, although she said the nickname was "smooshie"?
> 
> Can't we all just agree that Maltese from all the show breeders are beautiful even though their looks may vary? rayer:
> 
> 
> [/B]
Click to expand...


Yes, Marj, I did use the term loosely in post #5, paragraph #1, sentence #7. LOL! The point is, that term has been used for some time but when used to say they look like shih tzus (which I will not go back and find the post # nor who used the terms) it is not correct. Maltese do not have pushed in faces. I, for one, will not use that term again. Cosy, Coco, Wookie, Posie and the others with shorter muzzles look no where near a shih tzu. LOL 
The disagreement, if that's what you want to call it, was regarding types of heads in the ring with shorter "noses, muzzles, wideset eyes". I thought it a rather healthy discussion and hope some learned from it.
Sincerely,
Brit

Just as a post script I would like to add that even in that post I did not call them smooshed face. I said some people refer to them as smooshy. Just wanted to make that clear as mud. lol


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## KandiMaltese

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=420181
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> I will take lots of pics at the show. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the smooshed faces/wide eyeset dogs are in the ring we'll see. I am still new at this and only have books and the few shows I've been to, to determine what I've said. I will do my best to make time to note these things and ask about it. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit. I really didn't think it was standard and/or shown in the ring, but we will see. I will be sure to let you know when I start showing. If you travel, you really should have come to Nationals..It's going to be great! :biggrin:
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are still new at this, Andrea. In fact, you aren't even really started. Owning a dog which might be shown surely doesn't make one an expert on what is shown or even what wins. Until you have the experience of showing, you can think whatever you want. I highly doubt the one show you attended in Owensboro is a perfect example of all types of looks which are shown. Weren't most of those dogs pretty much from the same lines? One's opinion does not make it fact, and you were stating your opinions as fact. That's a bit naive. You've already been proven wrong, so maybe you would like to just admit it now. <note to Andrea, click the link in my prior post> An "I sorry, I was wrong" will be fine. :biggrin: I have one other little piece of advice from someone who's lived much longer than you. If you want to sound a bit more professional, you might want to say doll face or short muzzle rather than "smooshed face." It is also much less insulting and even kind to those of us who love the look.
> Your pictures from Nationals will not prove a thing to me except that you have taken pics of the dogs you happen to like. LOL! Thanks, but going to Nationals is not on my schedule, but I hope you all have a fabulous time.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

I never claimed to be any sort of "expert" by any means. I am no such thing. As I said previously, it's a sea of information and it's amazing! Let's just leave it at that and agree that all Maltese are special :wub: So many different looks. I think Nationals will be a great show to see every kind of look that's out there. I am here trying to learn. I only have what I've read in books and seen at the few shows I've been to, to go by. 



> index.php?act=findpost&pid=420181
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> I will take lots of pics at the show. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the smooshed faces/wide eyeset dogs are in the ring we'll see. I am still new at this and only have books and the few shows I've been to, to determine what I've said. I will do my best to make time to note these things and ask about it. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit. I really didn't think it was standard and/or shown in the ring, but we will see. I will be sure to let you know when I start showing. If you travel, you really should have come to Nationals..It's going to be great! :biggrin:
> 
> Andrea[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Andrea, one thing you will learn, if you pursue showing, is one person's opinion is just that. I know you think highly of your mentor, but there is much to learn and more opinions equally as important.
> The look you like in maltese right now may very well change in the future so don't burn your bridges
> so quickly. Appreciate all who try to help you learn along the way. Life is too short to be closed minded.
> [/B]
Click to expand...

I am definitely going to be showing. I do think highly of my mentor and the much sucess she has had in showing. I watched her in the ring and how she handled her beautiful dogs and I was stunned. It's amazing. Not to say I wouldn't someday branch out and bring different lineage in..of course I plan on that! But I think I found an amazing kennel to start off with..and I thank her for entrusting such a beautiful boy into my posession! I am truly blessed. I am the farthest thing from close minded, Brit. I started out not showing and not sure if I ever would and look , now I have purchased a show pup! I thank everyone here on SM for your support and encouragement on this! I appreciate everyone who has tried to help or offers their support. :biggrin:


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## carrie

....and we're moving on.....


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## Lainey & Martin

I can't even BEGIN to think of the work involved to show a dog!!
When we bought our standard poodle, we were originally going to show her - but after about 9 months of dealing with the poodle grooming, we said ENOUGH! She's a pet!!
I have no idea as to whether the Maltese is more or less demanding (grooming-wide) than a Standard Poodle, but it has to be close.
I applaud those that do.


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## Cosy

> I can't even BEGIN to think of the work involved to show a dog!!
> When we bought our standard poodle, we were originally going to show her - but after about 9 months of dealing with the poodle grooming, we said ENOUGH! She's a pet!!
> I have no idea as to whether the Maltese is more or less demanding (grooming-wide) than a Standard Poodle, but it has to be close.
> I applaud those that do.[/B]



Lainey, I would say standard poodle grooming far and away is more difficult than maltese coats, not to mention all that trimming. ACK! Lots of work, indeed! I don't blame you for saying ENOUGH. lol


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## sassy's mommy

For any future perspective show person: I am sure you realize that the people involved in "showing" are very cliquish and there is definitely a matter of social politics which goes on. Many times it isn't the prettiest, or even the most well breed/truest to standard dog that wins in the ring. The decision is all subjective and the opinion of the judge.....who might just so happen to be best friends with the winning dogs owner or handler. It can take many years to break into that "circle".....I for one don't have the desire for that these days; although I do enjoy owning a girl that is quiet worthy of the ring. 
~Pat and little Miss Smoochie face ~Sassy


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## Ladysmom

> For any future perspective show person: I am sure you realize that the people involved in "showing" are very cliquish and there is definitely a matter of social politics which goes on. Many times it isn't the prettiest, or even the most well breed/truest to standard dog that wins in the ring. The decision is all subjective and the opinion of the judge.....who might just so happen to be best friends with the winning dogs owner or handler. It can take many years to break into that "circle".....I for one don't have the desire for that these days; although I do enjoy owning a girl that is quiet worthy of the ring.
> ~Pat and little Miss Smoochie face ~Sassy[/B]


That was my experience when my daughter was showing horses. Judges had their own preferences for a look or style and a horse/rider than one judge loved and always pinned could be passed over by another judge. It was very subjective.

I don't know if this happens in the dog show world, but horse show people will actually avoid certain shows based on who is judging. It's just a waste of money on shipping, travelling expenses, not to mention time, if you knew you didn't have a chance of getting a ribbon.


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## Cosy

> For any future perspective show person: I am sure you realize that the people involved in "showing" are very cliquish and there is definitely a matter of social politics which goes on. Many times it isn't the prettiest, or even the most well breed/truest to standard dog that wins in the ring. The decision is all subjective and the opinion of the judge.....who might just so happen to be best friends with the winning dogs owner or handler. It can take many years to break into that "circle".....I for one don't have the desire for that these days; although I do enjoy owning a girl that is quiet worthy of the ring.
> ~Pat and little Miss Smoochie face ~Sassy[/B]



Yes, that's very true, Pat. Politics can make it difficult, but when a breeder/exhibitor or owner/exhibitor shows and wins it's a great win for the dog world. A good dog is very difficult to be denied if it stands out and is handled well. There are also some honest handlers who show to judges they think will like the dog. Judges do have their preferences, though they don't vary as greatly as some might think. 
The love and welfare of the breed is the most important thing. Some will win some days they don't deserve to and some won't win when they do deserve to. Sportsmanship and a desire to go on makes it all worth while...for the love of the breed.


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## Cosy

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=420356
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For any future perspective show person: I am sure you realize that the people involved in "showing" are very cliquish and there is definitely a matter of social politics which goes on. Many times it isn't the prettiest, or even the most well breed/truest to standard dog that wins in the ring. The decision is all subjective and the opinion of the judge.....who might just so happen to be best friends with the winning dogs owner or handler. It can take many years to break into that "circle".....I for one don't have the desire for that these days; although I do enjoy owning a girl that is quiet worthy of the ring.
> ~Pat and little Miss Smoochie face ~Sassy[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That was my experience when my daughter was showing horses. Judges had their own preferences for a look or style and a horse/rider than one judge loved and always pinned could be passed over by another judge. It was very subjective.
> 
> I don't know if this happens in the dog show world, but horse show people will actually avoid certain shows based on who is judging. It's just a waste of money on shipping, travelling expenses, not to mention time, if you knew you didn't have a chance of getting a ribbon.
> [/B]
Click to expand...



Yes, that happens in the dogworld too. It's part of learning. You have to learn what the judges like. Some prefer this over that. Some prefer the smaller as opposed to the larger end of the standard. It would be difficult to get everyone to see just what you want them to see all the time. Judges that have been around a long time are your best bets as others can tell you what they prefer.


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## MissMelanie

> Our favourite face looks like this: :wub:
> Short black nose,big eyes and,of course,smile...awwwww
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/B]


Swoon and MELT! That doggie is BEAUTIFUL... Ok off to Korea to get a new dog. :HistericalSmiley:


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## Tina

She really is a beautiful dog. :wub:


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## thelittlepet

Wow, this gets heated. As for the look, i prefer Bentley and Lily, one has a shorter nose, one has a longer nose. They are littermates. They have a sibling that has a nose as short as Cosy, they have some Marcris in their line so one can never tell exactly which snout you will get. Besides, a healthy dog with a fab personality is the winner in my book.
Aimee


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## LitGal

Besides, a healthy dog with a fab personality is the winner in my book.
Aimee 


This is precisely my view. Really, as long as a dog is healthy with a lovable disposition and humans who adore him/her, he/she is a true winner. :wub:


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## Tanner's Mom

I have found this thread fascinating to read. I didn't know the shorter snout came from Marcris, shows you how observant I am! Anyway, that's why I like going to the shows and seeing the different looks. I have got say, the Malts I've seen at these shows are ALL exquisite & beautiful little dogs. Now, my Tanner has a cute Malt face, his eyes are 2 fingers apart, his nose is 2 fingers long, and he's white! That's about where the resemblance ends, but he wuvs his mommy and mommy wuvs him.


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## angel's mom

> I have found this thread fascinating to read. I didn't know the shorter snout came from Marcris, shows you how observant I am! Anyway, that's why I like going to the shows and seeing the different looks. I have got say, the Malts I've seen at these shows are ALL exquisite & beautiful little dogs. Now, my Tanner has a cute Malt face, his eyes are 2 fingers apart, his nose is 2 fingers long, and he's white! That's about where the resemblance ends, *but he wuvs his mommy and mommy wuvs him.*[/B]


And, what more is required?????


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## 3Maltmom

I'm rather fond of Billy's nose...


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## Ladysmom

His nose looks perfect, but it's a little hard to tell if his eyes meet the standard.  

Eyes are set not too far apart; they are very dark and round, their black rims enhancing the gentle yet alert expression. 

http://www.americanmaltese.org/ama_akc_breed_standard.htm

I'm pretty sure Lady's don't! Her dry eye gives her a constant squint no matter how often I put the artificial tears in.


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## thelittlepet

Now Billy has the look of a champion for sure. Champion of hearts..
Aimee


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## coco

Billy is a precious dog. He looks like a love.  :wub: :wub:


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## PuttiePie

:wub: EYE luv Billy, and he knows it. LOL! I tell him my secrets. :biggrin:


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## Harley & Dakotas Mum

Billy is a darling! :wub: 

This has been a really interesting thread - thanks everyone for your contributions, its great to learn different things.

Personally, I think Dakota has 3 different noses .... depending on the angle of the pictures & also the length of her coat ...

'BIG' nose (back in Feb when she had her puppy cut, and before the groomer had finished shaping her face)
[attachment=25655:3_noses.jpg]

'Smaller' nose (a couple of months ago)
[attachment=25657:bath_1_july_iii.jpg]


'Normal' nose (a couple of weeks ago)
[attachment=25656ost_bat...kota_iii.jpg]

I think this girl looks different in every single picture I take of her! No matter, I love her to bits just as she is :wub:


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## belibaby14

> Billy is a darling! :wub:
> 
> This has been a really interesting thread - thanks everyone for your contributions, its great to learn different things.
> 
> Personally, I think Dakota has 3 different noses .... depending on the angle of the pictures & also the length of her coat ...
> 
> 'BIG' nose (back in Feb when she had her puppy cut, and before the groomer had finished shaping her face)
> [attachment=25655:3_noses.jpg]
> 
> 'Smaller' nose (a couple of months ago)
> [attachment=25657:bath_1_july_iii.jpg]
> 
> 
> 'Normal' nose (a couple of weeks ago)
> [attachment=25656ost_bat...kota_iii.jpg]
> 
> I think this girl looks different in every single picture I take of her! No matter, I love her to bits just as she is :wub:[/B]




No matter what angle, she is still super adorable! :wub:


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## Tina

> I have found this thread fascinating to read. I didn't know the shorter snout came from Marcris, shows you how observant I am! Anyway, that's why I like going to the shows and seeing the different looks. I have got say, the Malts I've seen at these shows are ALL exquisite & beautiful little dogs. Now, my Tanner has a cute Malt face, his eyes are 2 fingers apart, his nose is 2 fingers long, and he's white! That's about where the resemblance ends, but he wuvs his mommy and mommy wuvs him.[/B]


In actuality, Joyce with Risque' did not "start" the baby doll faces. It started many years before. It had to be in the genes for Risque' to get the trait. It most likely came from the Aennchens breeding or Villa Malta breeding. There were the longer noses too. In fact you see both of those traits today.
Tina


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## Cosy

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=421272
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have found this thread fascinating to read. I didn't know the shorter snout came from Marcris, shows you how observant I am! Anyway, that's why I like going to the shows and seeing the different looks. I have got say, the Malts I've seen at these shows are ALL exquisite & beautiful little dogs. Now, my Tanner has a cute Malt face, his eyes are 2 fingers apart, his nose is 2 fingers long, and he's white! That's about where the resemblance ends, but he wuvs his mommy and mommy wuvs him.[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In actuality, Joyce with Risque' did not "start" the baby doll faces. It started many years before. It had to be in the genes for Risque' to get the trait. It most likely came from the Aennchens breeding or Villa Malta breeding. There were the longer noses too. In fact you see both of those traits today.
> Tina
> [/B]
Click to expand...


Yes, there were lots of shorter muzzles before Risque, but he seems to have stamped that face on many lines and it carries on. That's not an easy feat. His father, Marshmallow had that face too...although he didn't always throw it from what I've seen.


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## Ladysmom

> index.php?act=findpost&pid=421272
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have found this thread fascinating to read. I didn't know the shorter snout came from Marcris, shows you how observant I am! Anyway, that's why I like going to the shows and seeing the different looks. I have got say, the Malts I've seen at these shows are ALL exquisite & beautiful little dogs. Now, my Tanner has a cute Malt face, his eyes are 2 fingers apart, his nose is 2 fingers long, and he's white! That's about where the resemblance ends, but he wuvs his mommy and mommy wuvs him.[/B]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In actuality, Joyce with Risque' did not "start" the baby doll faces. It started many years before. It had to be in the genes for Risque' to get the trait. It most likely came from the Aennchens breeding or Villa Malta breeding. There were the longer noses too. In fact you see both of those traits today.
> Tina
> [/B]
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing your knowledge of Maltese history with us. As I said before, I am so glad you recommended Nicholas Cutillo's book. I found it fascinating.


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## kcalbat

Skwooshee has a longer nose than the look I like....but I love him no matter what :wub:


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## ZoeGirl's Mommy

I just want to say thanks to each and every person who has contributed to this thread. I have sat at my computer and read every single one and it has been so educational! I am glad you all take the time to explain and discuss these things. I am totally uneducated about what is show quality and what is not. I do know that when I got my Zoe her breeder told me that she has the baby doll face, and from what I have seen and read she certainly does. She is from Mystique Maltese, her dad was a Divine maltese and her mom a Rhapsody girl. They are both shown and have done very well and both appear to have the baby doll faces. The only reason my girl was not shown was due to her tiny size. I was not looking for a particular face or look, only for a healthy, good quality maltese from a proven line and from a reputable breeder. I could have cared less whether she had a short nose or a long nose.


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