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Old 03-07-2012, 01:11 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Who are the real "show breeders"?

I pulled up an old thread about a breeder with questionable practices (breeding mutts out of champion Maltese). I did that because this person is still out there fooling folks into thinking she has ethics with some of the tag lines on her website.

I was in particular responding to a quote by Tina who said, "This woman is not a show breeder. She was attempting to be a show breeder by finding other show breeder's willing to sell her a dog with a good pedigree. Then she finds a handler who really needs money and gets them to show the dog for her. This does not make you a "show breeder". She has never stepped foot in a show ring."

Marie came into that discussion and asked" [...if] it was okay for breeders to hire handlers for their dogs. .... As a matter of fact, until recently, I had been under the impression that is what the AKC prefers ... professional handlers."

And to get to the point of that old thread, I don't think it was the fact that she had hired handlers that made this breeder not a show breeder, it was that she does not really breed to show. She has acquired dogs from others, had them shown, and bred them for profit and to sell as "teacups"...though she doesn't like that word, but uses it all over her website to get google search engines to find it.

There are a number breeders out there like this. They acquire dogs from anyone who will sell to them. Often from many different sources, usually males, and they have them shown so that they can in-turn sell puppies as Champion-sired, but their goal is not to breed to produce show dogs, it is to sell many puppies for profit. They use showing to give them an appearance of respectability, but are not truly using the shows to evaluate their breeding stock. This makes these folks tricky to spot, especially for the average pet owner who may not understand the difference between these types and a "real show breeder." They can be a bit of a gray area. They are not clearly BYB, nor puppy mills, but they are not breeding for the kind of reasons many of us here on SM would consider the mark of an ethical breeder.

So how do you figure out who the real show breeders are, versus the fake ones?

Well a real show breeder will finish both their males and the majority of their females (although not necessarily all of them).

it is a red flag when there are no finished females among their breeding dogs.

A real show breeder has dogs of their own kennel name finished. If they have been breeding for a long time, they will have many dogs with their kennel name who have their Championship.

it is a red flag when none of the dogs they have bred are shown or finished (or if they are finished they are only finished when someone else bought them and finished them).

(I should concede the point here that I do not yet have a finished dog from my own breeding, but I have only bred one litter and two of the puppies from that litter are currently in the ring and hopefully will both be finished).

A real show breeder may use a handler, but IMHO should also be going to shows. Seeing what else is out there helps you to evaluate your breeding stock and allows you to continue to grow and learn from the process of showing. I also think that being an owner/handler increases my respect for any breeder. While there are some outstanding breeders that do not show their own dogs, I really appreciate and admire the ones that do. Most of the great ones I know who do not typically show their own dogs, at least have done so at times and know what it takes to be in the ring.

it is a red flag to have someone who only sends their dogs off to be shown and never themselves step foot onto the show site.

a real show breeder is active in the national club, and/or local kennel clubs and volunteers or donates to them. (Thank Lynn for this one).

it is a red flag if a breeder calls all clubs too political to be a part of and claims that they have no value.

These are just some of the things I feel can help people to distinguish between the white, the gray and the black. Of course, the truly black bad guys have those big red flags most of the SM folks already recognize: like the BUY NOW button, the mixing of breeds, the numerous breeds, the tremendous number of puppies of a similar age all for sale at once, the word teacup, the use of pictures that emphasize the super tiny size (posing puppies in teacups or next to soda cans).

If you can think of others, feel free to add them.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Carina, this is excellent! I am going to request it be pinned.



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Old 03-07-2012, 01:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for all this valuable information, Carina.

I have a question. What exactly does it mean to finish off? I guess I should know ... but, I'm being honest ... I don't know.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:50 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Another way the bad guys are able to draw many people in is with newspaper ads and it's ALWAYS the SAME people every FEW months with puppies from the poor overbred dames. ($$$)

Thank you Carina for this information.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Finish is short for Finishing a Championship title. Around show circles people will say things like "How many have you finished? Have you finished your girl yet?"

I have finished 3 dogs: Cadeau, Cadie and Cacia. I owner/handled my Cadie completely...start to finish. I had some handling help with Cadeau who could be a bit unruly in the ring. My friend Paul showed him for his last wins. And Cacia, because I was always showing Cadie had several other handlers for some of her points, but I in the end I finished her myself by putting both of her majors on her.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:04 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudClan View Post
Finish is short for Finishing a Championship title. Around show circles people will say things like "How many have you finished? Have you finished your girl yet?"

I have finished 3 dogs: Cadeau, Cadie and Cacia. I owner/handled my Cadie completely...start to finish. I had some handling help with Cadeau who could be a bit unruly in the ring. My friend Paul showed him for his last wins. And Cacia, because I was always showing Cadie had several other handlers for some of her points, but I in the end I finished her myself by putting both of her majors on her.
Do you have to acquire a certain amounts of points before a dog finishes? Or, does the dog have to be the top winner in more than one show? I don't know if I am making sense the way I am asking this questions ... but, I am trying. : )
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Excellent information unfortunately where i am from too mny that fit in this category

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Old 03-07-2012, 02:20 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball Pie's Mommi View Post
Do you have to acquire a certain amounts of points before a dog finishes? Or, does the dog have to be the top winner in more than one show? I don't know if I am making sense the way I am asking this questions ... but, I am trying. : )
In order for a dog to finish their AKC championship they have to earn 15 points. They have to win at least two majors which means winning on two different days when at least 3 points or more are available. Some dogs can finish fast. I have heard of incredible dogs (or incredibly lucky owners) getting their dogs finished in as short as a couple of weekends. Theoretically it is possible to finish in just one 3 day weekend (3 days where the dog wins a 5 point major). In Maltese, majors are getting harder and harder to find. In all my time competing, other than nationals, I have never been to a show that actually had a 5 point major available in our breed. I entered Cacia all last year and only got to compete for majors 2 weekends in the entire year (entering more than 60 shows where she could not compete and I was basically just giving the hosting club and the superintendent my money). It is rarely as easy as it sounds, and it takes a lot of time, money and patience to show successfully. It is even harder for owner/handlers, especially those of us who are not as polished as the pros. It is a rare sport where amateurs compete alongside professionals for the same type of wins.

I created a page on my website that tries to explain how this works: CloudClan - Rules of the Sport
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:22 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thank you for posting this! I always knew that it was best to buy from a show breeder, but before I joined SM, I would have never guessed that this person wasn't a show breeder. This is why I'm glad SM is here
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